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Reserve DEO Questions

DAA

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You would think that the enrolment standards would be the same across the board but I believe there are some differences given the training "timelines" between Reg F and Res F officer applicants.  Nevertheless, every DEO officer is enrolled as an "OCdt" and generally promotion to 2Lt is backdated to the date of enrolment, once certain requirements have been met.  Reg F DEO Officers require completion of BMOQ but Res F DEO Officers I believe are treated differently.

CFAO 49-10 (Terms of Service - Officers - Primary Reserve)

CFAO 49-10, Annex A, paragraph 9. (Rank on Enrolment)

9.  An officer applicant shall be enrolled in the Primary Reserve in the rank of officer cadet and may be promoted on the same day to a higher rank in accordance with Appendix 3

CFAO 49-10, Annex A, Appendix 3 (Rank following Enrolment)

Serial 5 - Direct Entry - 2Lt - An applicable degree for the desired classification

You should only remain at the OCdt rank, if you do NOT meet the degree requirements for your chosen occupation.  So if you meet the academic requirements, you should be enrolled as an "Officer Cadet" and subsequently promoted to "Second Lieutenant" on the same day.  I believe that the promotion would have to be processed by your Res F Unit but this I am not entirely certain about, so your unit would need to answer this.
 

Bluebulldog

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Seem to recall a pair of new officers coming into my past Regt.

One was still in University and went off to BMOQ as an OCdt. The other had his degree and went there as a 2Lt.
 

Shamrock

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DAA said:
You would think that the enrolment standards would be the same across the board but I believe there are some differences given the training "timelines" between Reg F and Res F officer applicants.  Nevertheless, every DEO officer is enrolled as an "OCdt" and generally promotion to 2Lt is backdated to the date of enrolment, once certain requirements have been met.  Reg F DEO Officers require completion of BMOQ but Res F DEO Officers I believe are treated differently.

CFAO 49-10 (Terms of Service - Officers - Primary Reserve)

CFAO 49-10, Annex A, paragraph 9. (Rank on Enrolment)

9.  An officer applicant shall be enrolled in the Primary Reserve in the rank of officer cadet and may be promoted on the same day to a higher rank in accordance with Appendix 3

CFAO 49-10, Annex A, Appendix 3 (Rank following Enrolment)

Serial 5 - Direct Entry - 2Lt - An applicable degree for the desired classification

You should only remain at the OCdt rank, if you do NOT meet the degree requirements for your chosen occupation.  So if you meet the academic requirements, you should be enrolled as an "Officer Cadet" and subsequently promoted to "Second Lieutenant" on the same day.  I believe that the promotion would have to be processed by your Res F Unit but this I am not entirely certain about, so your unit would need to answer this.

You missed the honking big "MAY" at Para 9.  One can meet the requirements and still not be promoted because the CO does not desire it.
 

DAA

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Shamrock said:
You missed the honking big "MAY" at Para 9.  One can meet the requirements and still not be promoted because the CO does not desire it.

No, I saw the "may" but the prerequisites are "having an acceptable degree for the classification".  What I am not certain of (out of my area of expertise) is just who is responsible for initiating/approving the promotion and when?  For Reg F DEO, they are promoted to 2Lt by CFLRS on completion of BMOQ, as they have met the requirements/prerequisites.  As far as I can see, for Res F DEO, if they have the academic requirements for the occupation, then promotion to 2Lt should be somewhat a given.

You gotta have a pretty good reason not to promote someone.

I was hoping that there was someone from a Res Unit up to speed on this, who could answer it.
 

Rocky Mountains

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In my limited experience some years ago, the only rank of entry for officers in the reserves I saw for university graduates was 2LT and  Officer Cadets were usually commissioned long before they got their degree.  Regardless, I don't think there is any difference in treatment. 
 

glahaye

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I enrolled this past Thursday as an Engineer Officer in a reserve squadron and was 2LT from my first day.

What the recruiting officer at my squadron told me is that it is customary for DEO officers who already have their bachelor's degree to get an immediate promotion to 2LT on enrollment.

However, I do know of one 2LT in my squadron who already did have his bachelor's on enrollment last year and remained an officer cadet for a few months (I believe until he completed his BMOQ) before being promoted to 2LT.  He told me that's how it used to be and that all the newly enrolled officers who came after him got to be 2LT from day 1.

If I were you, I would simply ask whether your current rank was assigned as intended.  It may just be a clerical error.  My enrollment papers were filled with errors that we corrected as we went through.  For instance, some papers had me as a private.

There is nothing wrong in asking.  I encourage you to do so as there is a slight pay increase from officer cadet to 2LT.

Hope this helps.
 

George Wallace

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DAA said:
You gotta have a pretty good reason not to promote someone.

One reason, would be that until they have successfully completed BMOQ, there is no need to give them a Commission.  In the past three years, my unit has had at least three OCdts enrolled.  None of them successfully completed BMOQ.  The longest serving unqualified OCdt stayed with us for three years and was needless to say, of no benefit to the unit.  All three have since left.  To have commissioned any of them would have been quite improper and a waste.
 

George Wallace

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Rocky Mountains said:
In my limited experience some years ago, the only rank of entry for officers in the reserves I saw for university graduates was 2LT and  Officer Cadets were usually commissioned long before they got their degree.  Regardless, I don't think there is any difference in treatment.

Under the University entry plans, Reserve officers started as OCdts, parading with the unit during the school year and earning tuition money by attending BMOQ, Cap and Occupational Training during the summers.  It was not uncommon for them to be commissioned before they earned a Degree.  Often, by the time they earned a Degree they would have been qualified to become Captains.  See below about the special dispensations of awarding 2Lt rank to persons already holding a Degree as being an archaic throwback to the 18th Century.

Rocky Mountains and glahaye

Of these three OCdts who joined my unit, one held three Law Degrees from three prestigious universities and is now teaching Law in the US, after less than a year in the unit and not attaining any military training.  Another was/is an Associate Professor at U of O, being employed teaching at RMC and NATO Schools abroad, and completed the first part of BMOQ only and remained in the unit for three years without any further training.  The third was unable to complete any of the training necessary and lingered in our unit and another in another city and back to us, to finally be Released.  None of the three who showed such promise on enrolment successfully finished the basic officer courses, thus never qualifying to progress onto occupation training.

On another take on this, not related to our three unsuccessful OCdts, I have witnessed some cases where people are joining the Reserves for the only reason as to pad a Resume.  This could be in the form of posting on their resume/CV that they were "Commissioned Officers in the CAF" or perhaps were in a 'special' Trade.  Some of these people never achieve any success in becoming trained and qualified in a military occupation as an officer or an NCM.  To automatically enrol someone into the Reserves and give them a Commission due to their social or education circumstances, without their becoming qualified in any way shape or form in a military occupation, is an archaic custom that has no relevance in today's military (other than the Medical, Legal, or Chaplaincy occupations).  As seen in my examples above, what guarantee is there that a candidate will successfully complete their military courses and become qualified in a military occupation?  Handing out 'Commissions' like a 'Canada 125' medal is criminal. 

For the most part those joining the Reserves will have the best of intentions, but circumstances in their lives or employment may intervene and not allow them to fulfill those intentions.  Those who buck the system in attempts to pad a resume/CV or attain some social distinction from being affiliated with the Reserves are very rare.
 

Quaz

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Roughneckrico - I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about your rank. During your initial training (BMQ, BMOQ, BMOQ-L) you'll be mixed in with a variety of Pte(for BMQ) and OCdt/2Lt ranks. It will make no difference what your rank is during your courses. You will be equals and will need to work as equals or you will not be successful. Some of you will be getting $9.92 a day more in pay and that is about all. When you are back in your unit, your CoC will assign you a job based on your abilities, training and the needs of the unit. Again, it probably won't matter what your rank is. You'll be employed and it will be your duty to carry it out to the best of your abilities regardless of your rank. The difference in pay again will be a whopping $4.96 on your average parade night. Don't sweat it, man.

I personally was an OCdt on enrollment and only was commissioned upon completion of BMOQ-L despite having a degree and working on a MA. It didn't bother me in the slightest except for when I couldn't do certain jobs (DutyO, RSO) despite being qualified. A commission is a pretty important thing. It places responsibilities and special trust in you and getting one should be a highlight in your life. It is my opinion that it will feel like an even bigger deal if you have put a few courses down range before you get.



 

Shamrock

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DAA said:
No, I saw the "may" but the prerequisites are "having an acceptable degree for the classification".  What I am not certain of (out of my area of expertise) is just who is responsible for initiating/approving the promotion and when?  For Reg F DEO, they are promoted to 2Lt by CFLRS on completion of BMOQ, as they have met the requirements/prerequisites.  As far as I can see, for Res F DEO, if they have the academic requirements for the occupation, then promotion to 2Lt should be somewhat a given.

You gotta have a pretty good reason not to promote someone.

I was hoping that there was someone from a Res Unit up to speed on this, who could answer it.

The initiation is the CO's but approval is formation.

Reserve promotions are different than RegF - the "may" is very much a may.  PRes Officers will spend much more time in their lieutenancy than their RegF counterparts.  Incidentally, it's also a "may" for a promotion to Cpl.
 

northernboy_24

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No one should get a commission before they at least have BMOQ.  I know in the reserve artillery world the COs tend not to promote someone to 2Lt until they have completed BMOQ-L.
 

RedcapCrusader

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There's a DEO officer on my BMQ course right now, they are being paid as a 2Lt but they wear the OCdt rank until completes this course and BMOQ then can wear the 2Lt bar from that point.
 

glahaye

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I agree that commissioning an individual right off the bat doesn't make sense.  At the very least, individuals should complete BMOQ before getting a commission.  But that's just an opinion I share with many who wrote in this thread.

The reality is that immediate promotion to 2LT is commonplace.  Given this reality, roughneckrico, I again suggest that you confirm whether your rank was assigned as intended.  Of course, if your superiors in fact wanted you to be OCdt, then that is that.
 
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Quaz said:
Roughneckrico - I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about your rank. During your initial training (BMQ, BMOQ, BMOQ-L) you'll be mixed in with a variety of Pte(for BMQ) and OCdt/2Lt ranks. It will make no difference what your rank is during your courses. You will be equals and will need to work as equals or you will not be successful. Some of you will be getting $9.92 a day more in pay and that is about all. When you are back in your unit, your CoC will assign you a job based on your abilities, training and the needs of the unit. Again, it probably won't matter what your rank is. You'll be employed and it will be your duty to carry it out to the best of your abilities regardless of your rank. The difference in pay again will be a whopping $4.96 on your average parade night. Don't sweat it, man.

I personally was an OCdt on enrollment and only was commissioned upon completion of BMOQ-L despite having a degree and working on a MA. It didn't bother me in the slightest except for when I couldn't do certain jobs (DutyO, RSO) despite being qualified. A commission is a pretty important thing. It places responsibilities and special trust in you and getting one should be a highlight in your life. It is my opinion that it will feel like an even bigger deal if you have put a few courses down range before you get.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sweating it. I'm just enjoying as things develop.

I'm mostly asking, since my IC was concerned he wasn't able to task me for anything officially around the unit until I got my commission. Sure that extra pay would be nice, but at $4 difference on parade night, it just pays for the beer in the mess after,  ;D
 

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

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RedcapCrusader said:
There's a DEO officer on my BMQ course right now, they are being paid as a 2Lt but they wear the OCdt rank until completes this course and BMOQ then can wear the 2Lt bar from that point.

There's nothing more annoying to a BMQ/BMOQ instructor than having a 2Lt in the course. I've seen course officers/school sqn officers that were insistent that a commissioned officer would not march in the ranks. I've seen other courses where they were required to march around with everyone else.

Personally I don't think they would get the same training value as 2Lt than as a OCdt. It's easier for the course staff and other students as well. Keeping the 2Lt pay or backdating it afterwards is a good fix.
 
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RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
There's nothing more annoying to a BMQ/BMOQ instructor than having a 2Lt in the course. I've seen course officers/school sqn officers that were insistent that a commissioned officer would not march in the ranks. I've seen other courses where they were required to march around with everyone else.

Personally I don't think they would get the same training value as 2Lt than as a OCdt. It's easier for the course staff and other students as well. Keeping the 2Lt pay or backdating it afterwards is a good fix.

That makes sense. Thanks for the input.
 

Avro

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I have been lurking around the forum for a awhile trying to find as must information as possible but I finally decided to make an account and ask some questions.

I'm a recent university graduate with a bachelors of commerce currently completing an accounting designation looking to join the Reserve Force.
I have always had passion for aviation and planes and would love to serve in the Air Reserve. I live in Winnipeg so with Wing 17 I feel that it isn't a dream too far fetched  ;D I'm also interested (albeit less) in MARS officer or signals officer. However, as a reservist MARS officer or signals officer I'm not sure how much time I would get to spend at sea or in the field. But with an airbase in the city I feel that I will be able to contribute and have a job to do. Do my concerns have any basis? What do MARS/signals officers do on their regularly scheduled parades?

I am also concerned about the time commitment required for training - I have a full time civilian job and generally cannot take more than 3 weeks of vacation at a time, but I think that my employer would be more lenient in allowing me time off since it's for a good cause!
  • I read that BMOQ can be completed part-time on weekends, how about trade specific training? What are the training time commitments for reserve officers?
  • How do the duties for Logistics Officers, Signals Officers, and MARS Officers differ from regular to reserve? I have an idea about those jobs for regular forces based on information found on forces.ca
I haven't spoken to a recruiter yet because I don't plan on applying until I'm nearing completion of my designation (in 2015). I wish I could apply now but I know I won't be able to handle the workload.
I appreciate your help in taking time to answer my questions.
 

DAA

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Avro said:
I have been lurking around the forum for a awhile trying to find as must information as possible but I finally decided to make an account and ask some questions.
I'm a recent university graduate with a bachelors of commerce currently completing an accounting designation looking to join the Reserve Force.
I have always had passion for aviation and planes and would love to serve in the Air Reserve. I live in Winnipeg so with Wing 17 I feel that it isn't a dream too far fetched  ;D I'm also interested (albeit less) in MARS officer or signals officer. However, as a reservist MARS officer or signals officer I'm not sure how much time I would get to spend at sea or in the field. But with an airbase in the city I feel that I will be able to contribute and have a job to do. Do my concerns have any basis? What do MARS/signals officers do on their regularly scheduled parades?
I am also concerned about the time commitment required for training - I have a full time civilian job and generally cannot take more than 3 weeks of vacation at a time, but I think that my employer would be more lenient in allowing me time off since it's for a good cause!
  • I read that BMOQ can be completed part-time on weekends, how about trade specific training? What are the training time commitments for reserve officers?
  • How do the duties for Logistics Officers, Signals Officers, and MARS Officers differ from regular to reserve? I have an idea about those jobs for regular forces based on information found on forces.ca
I haven't spoken to a recruiter yet because I don't plan on applying until I'm nearing completion of my designation (in 2015). I wish I could apply now but I know I won't be able to handle the workload.
I appreciate your help in taking time to answer my questions.

If your interested in joining any of the Reserve elements (Land, Sea or Air) you need to speak to those specific units "directly" even before submitting an application.  Speaking to them doesn't involve a commitment, other than a few minutes of your time. 

Here is the link to locate Reserve Units in your area  -  http://www.forces.ca/en/centres/findarecruiter-110#na-1#ar-2#af-3#he-4#na-1

 

Brasidas

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Avro said:
I have been lurking around the forum for a awhile trying to find as must information as possible but I finally decided to make an account and ask some questions.

I'm a recent university graduate with a bachelors of commerce currently completing an accounting designation looking to join the Reserve Force.
I have always had passion for aviation and planes and would love to serve in the Air Reserve. I live in Winnipeg so with Wing 17 I feel that it isn't a dream too far fetched  ;D I'm also interested (albeit less) in MARS officer or signals officer. However, as a reservist MARS officer or signals officer I'm not sure how much time I would get to spend at sea or in the field. But with an airbase in the city I feel that I will be able to contribute and have a job to do. Do my concerns have any basis? What do MARS/signals officers do on their regularly scheduled parades?

I am also concerned about the time commitment required for training - I have a full time civilian job and generally cannot take more than 3 weeks of vacation at a time, but I think that my employer would be more lenient in allowing me time off since it's for a good cause!
  • I read that BMOQ can be completed part-time on weekends, how about trade specific training? What are the training time commitments for reserve officers?
  • How do the duties for Logistics Officers, Signals Officers, and MARS Officers differ from regular to reserve? I have an idea about those jobs for regular forces based on information found on forces.ca
I haven't spoken to a recruiter yet because I don't plan on applying until I'm nearing completion of my designation (in 2015). I wish I could apply now but I know I won't be able to handle the workload.
I appreciate your help in taking time to answer my questions.

I can't speak to the whole of officer trades, but I can assure you that trade-specific training for Signal Officers and MARS officers can not be completed on weekends.

Figuring something out for this training is on you, but I know that if I had to spend all of my vacation time to go on military training, I would have had trouble at home. There is a reason why many of those who have time to go on course at my unit are students or public servants who have flexible LWOP options, and why there are a handful of aged corporals who may never go on a leadership course despite the desires of their CoC.
 
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