• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

SeaKingTacco

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
1,798
Points
910
Both yes and no. S 130 doesn't list any laws but in fact incorporates all Federal laws which have a punishment provision over and above the CCC. Narcotics falls into that. Also don't forget s 132 of the NDA which allows laying a charge under any foreign law where the offence takes place. This used to be a standard for drunk driving in Germany. The intent of this section is to allow Canada to take jurisdiction over offences where the CSD wouldn't apply. In large part this is to meet SOFA requirements and facilitates keeping Canadian soldiers out of foreign courts and jails.

🍻
Thanks- I forgot all about 132.
 

ballz

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
263
Points
910
Concrete examples or just a perception?

Working in finance, I've got quite a few. I'd tell you about the RCAF Comd who wanted a $107k Change of Command ceremony 3 years ago, but I can't post it due to site guidelines. It's a quick google search if you're interested, you might also find an interesting story about a certain LFAA Commander who did do a $100k Change of Command, and a really juicy quote from his Chief of Staff at the time, at the bottom of the article you'll probably find, and how said LFAA Commander was hired as mentor for a course on about "leadership and ethics" after he retired.

Which kind of brings me back to a thought that struck me when @Weinie was talking about with his experience... I have anecdotally noticed a lot of this crazy stuff we see in the news always involves someone in a Command position.... I don't think it's a coincidence. Don't know Weinie, his rank, positions, etc.... it just kinda dawned on me when reading it to wonder about his Command positions and to what extent that influences people as they develop.

Are any charges like sexual assault automatically a court martial? Or can they be summery trials? If so perhaps they need to automatically court martial offenses. Once we have an independent reporting entity l, I hope the have it's own investigation arm, and the ability to charge members.

Worth noting that this is being brought up by victims as a weak point for the CAF system, that a lot of things that should be sexual assault end up being summary trials for drunkenness, NDA 129s, etc. I have zero knowledge of whether this is true or not, but it has come up in the media recently.
 
Last edited:

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
4,311
Points
1,060

Head of Canadian military intelligence school removed amid misconduct probe​


ariana grande thank you GIF by CBC
 

OldSolduer

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,620
Points
910

SeaKingTacco

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
1,798
Points
910
Working in finance, I've got quite a few. I'd tell you about the RCAF Comd who wanted a $107k Change of Command ceremony 3 years ago, but I can't post it due to site guidelines. It's a quick google search if you're interested, you might also find an interesting story about a certain LFAA Commander who did do a $100k Change of Command, and a really juicy quote from his Chief of Staff at the time, at the bottom of the article you'll probably find, and how said LFAA Commander was hired as mentor for a course on about "leadership and ethics" after he retired.

Which kind of brings me back to what @Weinie was talking about with his experience... I have anecdotally noticed a lot of this crazy stuff we see in the news always involves someone in a Command position.... I don't think it's a coincidence.



Worth noting that this is being brought up by victims as a weak point for the CAF system, that a lot of things that should be sexual assault end up being summary trials for drunkenness, NDA 129s, etc. I have zero knowledge of whether this is true or not, but it has come up in the media recently.
On your last point- not in my personal experience (recognizing fully that others will have seen different things).

Keep in mind, the AJAG reviews all UDIs and helps draft the charges at a Summary Trial level. In my experience, if there is a whiff of sexual assault, NIS is brought in and it is off to a court martial (Or maybe civvie court- depends on the nexus/circumstances).

Also keep in mind that if NIS cannot find grounds to proceed, maybe all that is left to a unit CO is that drunkenness or that 129 charge. Would everyone be happier if no charges at all got laid, which would certainly be the case on civvie street?

Sometimes, what might appear to a casual observer or a victim as an accused “getting it easy, by summary trial” might actually be a Unit trying to get at least something to stick to an accused, which is a lot better than nothing. I admit it is less than satisfactory to say this, but sometimes bad things happen and the evidence just does not exist such that reasonable prospect of conviction will occur and an accused will walk. Real life is not like crime dramas on TV.
 

ballz

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
263
Points
910
On your last point- not in my personal experience (recognizing fully that others will have seen different things).

Keep in mind, the AJAG reviews all UDIs and helps draft the charges at a Summary Trial level. In my experience, if there is a whiff of sexual assault, NIS is brought in and it is off to a court martial (Or maybe civvie court- depends on the nexus/circumstances).

Also keep in mind that if NIS cannot find grounds to proceed, maybe all that is left to a unit CO is that drunkenness or that 129 charge. Would everyone be happier if no charges at all got laid, which would certainly be the case on civvie street?

Sometimes, what might appear to a casual observer or a victim as an accused “getting it easy, by summary trial” might actually be a Unit trying to get at least something to stick to an accused, which is a lot better than nothing. I admit it is less than satisfactory to say this, but sometimes bad things happen and the evidence just does not exist such that reasonable prospect of conviction will occur and an accused will walk. Real life is not like crime dramas on TV.

My initial thought when I heard it on the news was along those lines... it's not uncommon in civilian courts either that they go with a lesser charge because they actually have the ability to prosecute it successfully, and the victim is the one left feeling short-changed as a result. Plea bargains are a necessary part of the justice system as well. Just thought it was worth bringing up given what the question was.
 

Eye In The Sky

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
357
Points
910
The agents of change are doing their BMQ or at RMC right now

On target, fire for effect.

Ref the 35 years-in-the-mob MWO...I come close to representing that group. 32 years in this summer, 3 trades, WO, 50 years old. I think you are able to influence that groups behaviour, but some will not change their thinking. The CD2 crowd might be there for the shot release....but not likely there for the required follow thru you're speaking to, 5+ years downrange.

The start of the culture change, truly, is likely with the Jnr NCO and Officers who will realize they are the 'break in the cycle' opportunity. They will be the Coy/Flt/Divisional Comds and Warrant/Petty Officers who will secure the 'new ops normal' that is needed. And, clearly, it is needed.

I echo a few posters who've said these events with our most senior leadership (Vance and fwd from there) have me looking at GO/FO and Snr Officers with a critical eye. CDS, A/CDS, CMP...the list is just far to fuckin' long.

We need leaders, at all levels, to say "no". Leaders, at all levels (including politicians), need to hold to account those who cover up or fail to hold to account their subordinates for known transgressions. NCM or Officer, it doesn't matter. It's plain as day in the QR & O that we have a duty to "become acquainted with, observe and enforce all regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of our duties" "promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all subordinates" and "report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline".

Start using those to get rid of those who don't conduct themselves accordingly. We have the tools needed now to solve these problems ourselves...start bloody well using them.

Personally, as the 30+ year Warrant Officer, I'm wondering why we're not seeing some of these charges.



Last point - there will be some who say "but innocent NCOs/WO-POs/Officers are going to be accused of things and be seen as guilty until proven innocent".

Here's my advice; don't be stupid! Don't put yourself in a situation where you might end up in that predicament. Christ, it's not hard. I've been away with crews all over the northern hemisphere. People drink and act stupid when they're away from their postal code...and I avoided that stupidity, especially with the opposite sex because (1) I am aware of the current climate (2) I am married and just because my wife trusts me doesn't mean I need to exercise that trust everytime I'm away with a green passport. Guess what...I never get in shit on deployments. Magical!

Don't want to deal with wrongful allegations...don't put yourself into stupid situations. (Bad) adult decisions come with (bad) adult consequences.
 

Attachments

  • Change.jpg
    Change.jpg
    56.1 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
488
Points
880
On target, fire for effect.

Ref the 35 years-in-the-mob MWO...I come close to representing that group. 32 years in this summer, 3 trades, WO, 50 years old. I think you are able to influence that groups behaviour, but some will not change their thinking. The CD2 crowd might be there for the shot release....but not likely there for the required follow thru you're speaking to, 5+ years downrange.

The start of the culture change, truly, is likely with the Jnr NCO and Officers who will realize they are the 'break in the cycle' opportunity. They will be the Coy/Flt/Divisional Comds and Warrant/Petty Officers who will secure the 'new ops normal' that is needed. And, clearly, it is needed.

I echo a few posters who've said these events with our most senior leadership (Vance and fwd from there) have me looking at GO/FO and Snr Officers with a critical eye. CDS, A/CDS, CMP...the list is just far to fuckin' long.

We need leaders, at all levels, to say "no". Leaders, at all levels (including politicians), need to hold to account those who cover up or fail to hold to account their subordinates for known transgressions. NCM or Officer, it doesn't matter. It's plain as day in the QR & O that we have a duty to "become acquainted with, observe and enforce all regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of our duties" "promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all subordinates" and "report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline".

Start using those to get rid of those who don't conduct themselves accordingly. We have the tools needed now to solve these problems ourselves...start bloody well using them.

Personally, as the 30+ year Warrant Officer, I'm wondering why we're not seeing some of these charges.



Last point - there will be some who say "but innocent NCOs/WO-POs/Officers are going to be accused of things and be seen as guilty until proven innocent".

Here's my advice; don't be stupid! Don't put yourself in a situation where you might end up in that predicament. Christ, it's not hard. I've been away with crews all over the northern hemisphere. People drink and act stupid when they're away from their postal code...and I avoided that stupidity, especially with the opposite sex because (1) I am aware of the current climate (2) I am married and just because my wife trusts me doesn't mean I need to exercise that trust everytime I'm away with a green passport. Guess what...I never get in shit on deployments. Magical!

Don't want to deal with wrongful allegations...don't put yourself into stupid situations. (Bad) adult decisions come with (bad) adult consequences.
I said it earlier in this threat that we let the "small things slide" and we have gotten out of the habit of taking discipline seriously in our every day conduct of business. I see leaders at all levels walk past faults and every time this happens its makes it a little worse. It also makes those of us who pick up faults and provide guidance or direction on the correction seem like tyrants.

I remember as a MS (Master Seaman in those days) at a field unit getting scolded by my Sgt for holding a kit inspection on my section before going to the field. I wasn't yelling or screaming just making sure everyone had the RSMs kit list and that it was in good order, while giving a week or so to correct any deficiencies.
 

Good2Golf

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
2,574
Points
1,160
I remember as a MS (Master Seaman in those days) at a field unit getting scolded by my Sgt for holding a kit inspection on my section before going to the field. I wasn't yelling or screaming just making sure everyone had the RSMs kit list and that it was in good order, while giving a week or so to correct any deficiencies.
This is unfortunate! Especially for a SNCO to chastise you for by all marks a profession ANd quite appropriate/professional measure to take.

Good point about being professional about even the smallest things...then the foundation of other actions is based on solid professionalism, not on something to be made more professional ‘when the time’s right’ (always is right).

Regards
G2G
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
4,311
Points
1,060
Ottawa Citizen article this morning CDS was top guy in regiment that provided a character reference for Hamilton.

See @Bruce Monkhouse I'm learning! No link lol

Plus ca change....

What Did He Know?

Charges of coverup over Somalia rock the military​


Somalia debacle a high-level cover-up​


1994: Somalia Inquiry to investigate Canadian military scandal​


Seldom has a federal public inquiry been so blunt and unequivocal. The three commissioners called for a full-scale criminal investigation into the March 4, 1993, shooting by Canadian soldiers of two Somalis, one of whom died. They urged the government to look into possible perjury charges against senior military officials who, the commissioners said, lied on the witness stand. And they flatly concluded that without massive change in the military - including a purge of the top brass - a repeat of the African debacle is almost certain. "The sorry sequence of events in Somalia was not the work of a few bad apples," concluded chairman Gilles Létourneau, a Federal Court of Canada judge, "but the inevitable result of systematic organization and leadership failures, many occurring over long periods of time and ignored by our military leaders for just as long."

 

MilEME09

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
697
Points
940
Would explain why he tried to cover for Dawes. This mess keeps getting worse and worse
 

SeaKingTacco

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
1,798
Points
910
Would explain why he tried to cover for Dawes. This mess keeps getting worse and worse
I may have missed it, but can you explain how Eyre tried to cover for Dawes? Not trolling- just not following your train of logic, based on the events, as I currently understand them.
 

SeaKingTacco

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
1,798
Points
910
Plus ca change....

What Did He Know?

Charges of coverup over Somalia rock the military​


Somalia debacle a high-level cover-up​


1994: Somalia Inquiry to investigate Canadian military scandal​


Seldom has a federal public inquiry been so blunt and unequivocal. The three commissioners called for a full-scale criminal investigation into the March 4, 1993, shooting by Canadian soldiers of two Somalis, one of whom died. They urged the government to look into possible perjury charges against senior military officials who, the commissioners said, lied on the witness stand. And they flatly concluded that without massive change in the military - including a purge of the top brass - a repeat of the African debacle is almost certain. "The sorry sequence of events in Somalia was not the work of a few bad apples," concluded chairman Gilles Létourneau, a Federal Court of Canada judge, "but the inevitable result of systematic organization and leadership failures, many occurring over long periods of time and ignored by our military leaders for just as long."

I could be wrong, but just because Eyre was the senior Patricia at the times Dawes wrote the now infamous character reference, it does not mean he knew anything about it. That, in my limited experience, is not what Regimental councils discuss.
 

Blackadder1916

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
450
Points
1,030
See @Bruce Monkhouse I'm learning! No link lol

I'm holding my tongue. This is the difficulty of trying to comment about something that is "so far" only mentioned in one media outlet, one that by site owner's (understandable) fiat we are precluded from referencing in any manner. Before this continues to a possible whole scale edit of comments, the quoted post should be deleted, my post should be deleted and any other links to it be deleted.
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
697
Points
940
I may have missed it, but can you explain how Eyre tried to cover for Dawes? Not trolling- just not following your train of logic, based on the events, as I currently understand them.
If one letter came from Dawes, and another from the A/CDS when he was PPCLI. He wouldn't have much of a choice but to defend his character, he couldn't be critical if he was also involved in the letters as well. Not saying he is just as guilty or anything, just pointing out he may have backed him self into a corner here.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
488
Points
880
Ok what is a Regimental Guard ? Or a Regimental Council ? Why does a regiment need a group to decide its strategic guidance and policy direction ? Shouldn't it be taking that from the CAF or Army doctrine, like I would imagine, the remainder of the military ?

No trolling here and I have no dog in the fight, just an outside question.
 
Last edited:

SeaKingTacco

Army.ca Fixture
Donor
Reaction score
1,798
Points
910
If one letter came from Dawes, and another from the A/CDS when he was PPCLI. He wouldn't have much of a choice but to defend his character, he couldn't be critical if he was also involved in the letters as well. Not saying he is just as guilty or anything, just pointing out he may have backed him self into a corner here.
Are you alleging that Eyre wrote a letter, or are you speculating? I am trying, but failing, to understand what you are saying.
 
Top