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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

TangoTwoBravo

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Maybe it is because all these bulls hit training sessions don't fix the problem. The problem is simple. As much as I hate to give the RCR credit for anything, "Never pass a fault" is a good motto to live by. It normally is used to Jack someone up for having a strap unrolled but it's the harder issues that are passed by.

There is a big difference between that and a witch hunt like trigger364 is calling for. If someone is handsy at a mess party, he should be removed and read the riot act the next morning with his heels together. If he has a habit of doing that maybe counseling and probation is more appropriate. We don't however go looking for anyone who may, or may not, have been handsy in the past. You young'uns may not believe it but the 80s and 90s were different. We didn't find sexual partners with our thumbs. Most women didn't tell you what they wanted you went by trial and error. Like any experiment, sometimes it worked and sometimes it blew up in your face. You learned and didn't do it again.

Edit: you young'uns wasn't directed at you.
What do you define as "handsy?"

If one of your subordinates comes to you after a Troop party and tells you that another drunk soldier cornered them at the party, grabbed them by the waist, touched their chest and posterior and propositioned them. They broke away, but are shaken by the event.

What would your actions be?
 

Good2Golf

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Sure. Saying we all have biases is not enough for you. You can keep picking on me, that’s okay... Whatever I say, you’ll find ways to criticize.
Finding fault with others and only begrudgingly noting your own faiblesse when called on it isn’t what I’d call ‘picking on you.’ If your tone and critique of Weinie had not been so sanctimonious, I doubt it would have drawn my or anyone else’s attentions.

I will more directly identify my own biases, especially as I implied in my previous post to you, regarding the fighter force. It was in that environment that I experienced what I would categorize as the only major environment of misogynistic/sexually harassing conduct. I reported what I had witnessed to the unit CO, who literally laughed at me, and later to the Base Commander who gave me a polite blow off. I was on OJT at the time, so followed up with my own CoC later, who acknowledged that what transpired was unacceptable, and sent the concern higher, but also noted that I could contact the SIU (the NIS back in the day) as well. I did that as well, although I didn’t hear back after the initial rounds of statements. I have stayed in touch over the years with the target of the harassment, and they appreciated that someone separately took the effort to pursue resolution of an unacceptable condition. Others I know well had issues of a similar nature more recently, so it remains extant to a degree. So, yes...I am biased when I hear words from some to others that accuse of bias or blindness (your words to Weinie about Annalise Schamuhn’s ‘explaining water to fish’ analogy) yet are thin on noting ones own points for improvement.

Regards
G2G
 

Brad Sallows

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If one of your [peers] comes to you after a [] party and tells you that another drunk [] cornered them at the party, grabbed them by the waist, touched their chest and posterior and propositioned them. They broke away, but are shaken by the event.

"Welcome to UBC".
 

SupersonicMax

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Finding fault with others and only begrudgingly noting your own faiblesse when called on it isn’t what I’d call ‘picking on you.’ If your tone and critique of Weinie had not been so sanctimonious, I doubt it would have drawn my or anyone else’s attentions.

I will more directly identify my own biases, especially as I implied in my previous post to you, regarding the fighter force. It was in that environment that I experienced what I would categorize as the only major environment of misogynistic/sexually harassing conduct. I reported what I had witnessed to the unit CO, who literally laughed at me, and later to the Base Commander who gave me a polite blow off. I was on OJT at the time, so followed up with my own CoC later, who acknowledged that what transpired was unacceptable, and sent the concern higher, but also noted that I could contact the SIU (the NIS back in the day) as well. I did that as well, although I didn’t hear back after the initial rounds of statements. I have stayed in touch over the years with the target of the harassment, and they appreciated that someone separately took the effort to pursue resolution of an unacceptable condition. Others I know well had issues of a similar nature more recently, so it remains extant to a degree. So, yes...I am biased when I hear words from some to others that accuse of bias or blindness (your words to Weinie about Annalise Schamuhn’s ‘explaining water to fish’ analogy) yet are thin on noting ones own points for improvement.

Regards
G2G
So, you expect everyone to air out everything they have done or that their community has done over the years to contribute to the environment we are in today? As I have said before several times, we all have biases that led to the environment we are living in today. That includes you, me, senior CAF leadership, junior leaders, etc. Because I have biases doesn’t mean I can’t bring others to realize they do as well. At least I realize I have them and the institution has issues rather than be blind to the problems the institution is facing.

Good on you for reporting this specific incident. Now, which of your behaviours contributed (in a big or small way) to the environment we live in today? Why did you behave in those ways? These are the questions we should all be asking ourselves to uncover both our personal biases and the institution’s. How many time have you given a PERX to someone on MATA despite having even 1 day of observable work? Why did you do so? Doesn’t that contribute to the marginalization of women in the grand scheme of things?
 

Kilted

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Considering that many of the recent allegations against GO/FO appear to have occurred in the past, based on what we know about them, and appear to have been triggered by the allegations against General Vance, is it not conceivable that they will start to taper off as there are fewer and fewer issues left in the closet that people are willing to come forward about?
 

brihard

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What do you define as "handsy?"

If one of your subordinates comes to you after a Troop party and tells you that another drunk soldier cornered them at the party, grabbed them by the waist, touched their chest and posterior and propositioned them. They broke away, but are shaken by the event.

What would your actions be?

There are two pressing priorities that may not be fully aligned: the best interest and wishes of the victim, and the imperative to maintain discipline.

Personally, I would advise the victim that they have my full support if they want to bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate police service. I would also advise them that there will be an appropriate administrative followup on the behaviour either way.
 

Haggis

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What do you define as "handsy?"

If one of your subordinates comes to you after a Troop party and tells you that another drunk soldier cornered them at the party, grabbed them by the waist, touched their chest and posterior and propositioned them. They broke away, but are shaken by the event.

What would your actions be?
I had a similar occurrence brought to my attention many years ago. Two opposite gender peers were in an establishment following a Remembrance Day parade. The male got handsy. The female responded with at least two quick shots to the face, effectively delivered.
 

daftandbarmy

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I had a similar occurrence brought to my attention many years ago. Two opposite gender peers were in an establishment following a Remembrance Day parade. The male got handsy. The female responded with at least two quick shots to the face, effectively delivered.

I have seen this in Scotland on more than one occasion.

Perhaps some cross training from strapping Scottish lasses with a pint in one hand, a fag dangling, and a closed fist right hook? ;)
 

Jarnhamar

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Rutherford came under fire by past participants for signing a letter with Joannou in response to CBC's original story that did not contain an apology for what happened. The letter also said that participants should not be speaking publicly about the program since it's confidential.

Classic CAF right there. Some good old victim blaming.
 

OldSolduer

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If I may interject for a few moments I need to explain something.

A few of you ask why I say "be careful what you wish for" and "witch hunt". During times like this logic, reason and often the rule of law are forgotten and can lead to tragic results.

I will try to follow the principles of military communication - Accuracy, Brevity and Clarity - but I may not hit all three - or I might.

I am not a student of history, but a fan of history. If we have historians out there please feel free to correct me.

One of the first examples are the actual Witch Hunts that took place about 400 years ago in Scotland and England. Quite a number of people - mostly women - were accused of being witches and were burnt at the stake - alive. The point is that mere accusations cannot justify punishment. The rule of law must prevail. Innocent until proven guilty.

The Spanish Inquisition (not the Monty Python one - no soft cushions here) was a particularly nasty time. Heretics were tortured into confessing whether they were guilty or not - then put to death. Again, no trial and if there was it was a sham.

Tail Gunner Joe MCcarthy - a US Senator - saw Communists every where. Those who would not confess to being Communists or turn over names of Communists were blacklisted. This happened in 1954 - one of his opponents completed suicide.

Closer to our time the Satanic Panic of the 1980s - 40 or so years ago now - were responsible for ruining the lives of people who in no way had done anything wrong.


My point is that while you may want to root out sexual misconduct you best be careful how you do it.

Here's a question: What is sexual misconduct? How is it defined?

Should the CAF release anyone for sexual misconduct no matter how insignificant the incident may be?

My second last point - we don't burn people at the stake literally anymore. We have more artful ways of making peoples lives miserable.

Last point - we have all said something, done something or ignored something in the past that caused people to raise their eyebrows. One day that thing you forgot all about might come to bite you in the butt.
 

daftandbarmy

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I'm not going to say I'm surprised.

You mean this wasn't already an SOP?

"Rutherford wrote he personally would have never allowed a convicted sex offender to be a peer mentor. He is now recommending new screening measures, including criminal background checks, he said."
 

CBH99

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What’s wrong with the media? Are they reporting things you just don’t want to hear? We all know of a certain guy who insists the media is the enemy of the people. He doesn’t like them because they say things he doesn’t want to hear and he’s still got a grip on 50% of a population who would definitely drink toilet water no questions asked if he told them to.

Don’t blame the media. If it wasn’t for the media the sexual misconduct in the military would still be hidden.
I totally agree with you, 100%.

This statement wasn’t totally targeting the media, and in the context of the sexual assault scandals happening right now - I should have worded that differently.


**You are 100% right. In the context of the sexual assault scandals, I DO want the media reporting on it. Absolutely. (I truly wish none of this had happened, and therefore wouldn’t be in the news - obviously.) BUT... when it comes to this situation, I do absolutely want people held accountable to the highest degree.
(sometimes I get scrolling through various threads and start casually posting in the same context/voice in my head, which is casually conversational.)

Btw - the toilet water comment is a casual saying around where I live. Clearly not meant to be taken literally 🤦🏼‍♂️ Like FFS...


The point of my post (which after reading it again just now, I absolutely could have been a lot more direct) was the question I asked at the end.

Out of general curiosity, I am curious how other NATO countries compare in regards to issues of sexual misconduct in their ranks, programs similar to OP HONOUR they have, etc etc.

**Just to clarify so trigger324 isn’t triggered — obviously the question isn’t to compare and downplay anything along the lines of “well we are doing better than those guys...”

Just a curiosity question is all. Going to do some digging tonight.
 

CBH99

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Classic CAF right there. Some good old victim blaming.
Jarn, I’m a huge fan and quite enjoy reading your posts.

I am lost on the one above though.

The CAF isn’t victim blaming here. In this case, it’s the management of the program. (Which isn’t CAF funded or staffed, and is attended by female members of multiple agencies.)

I’m with you that it absolutely victim blaming. But from my understanding of the article, it was someone associated with the program that made those comments, not the CAF.

(I may have missed something though. Just catching up on reading & posts now)
 

trigger324

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If I may interject for a few moments I need to explain something.

A few of you ask why I say "be careful what you wish for" and "witch hunt". During times like this logic, reason and often the rule of law are forgotten and can lead to tragic results.

I will try to follow the principles of military communication - Accuracy, Brevity and Clarity - but I may not hit all three - or I might.

I am not a student of history, but a fan of history. If we have historians out there please feel free to correct me.

One of the first examples are the actual Witch Hunts that took place about 400 years ago in Scotland and England. Quite a number of people - mostly women - were accused of being witches and were burnt at the stake - alive. The point is that mere accusations cannot justify punishment. The rule of law must prevail. Innocent until proven guilty.

The Spanish Inquisition (not the Monty Python one - no soft cushions here) was a particularly nasty time. Heretics were tortured into confessing whether they were guilty or not - then put to death. Again, no trial and if there was it was a sham.

Tail Gunner Joe MCcarthy - a US Senator - saw Communists every where. Those who would not confess to being Communists or turn over names of Communists were blacklisted. This happened in 1954 - one of his opponents completed suicide.

Closer to our time the Satanic Panic of the 1980s - 40 or so years ago now - were responsible for ruining the lives of people who in no way had done anything wrong.


My point is that while you may want to root out sexual misconduct you best be careful how you do it.

Here's a question: What is sexual misconduct? How is it defined?

Should the CAF release anyone for sexual misconduct no matter how insignificant the incident may be?

My second last point - we don't burn people at the stake literally anymore. We have more artful ways of making peoples lives miserable.

Last point - we have all said something, done something or ignored something in the past that caused people to raise their eyebrows. One day that thing you forgot all about might come to bite you in the butt.
Ok. I catch your drift, that you’re all for warning me to be careful for wishing that the problem we have on our hands is dealt with swiftly and effectively, but in all honesty that is my suggestion. Since I joined this discussion earlier in the week I’ve offered that as my wish and my solution, but frankly I’ve seen no offering of a solution from you, other than a guarded warning not to wish for it with the above stories to augment it. What do you suggest should happen for this situation to go away? ie offenders are dealt with accordingly and Mercedes Stephenson et al don’t have to keep bringing up the transgressions.
 
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