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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Remius

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It's true that times have changed, but we still recruit individuals that still act in the same way, or start to act in the same way based on the way our peers act. I'm not saying that we can't expect more from these people. We probably have one of the most educated armed forces in the world, but we also have some uneducated people and some pretty shady people. You miss understood my statement about zero tolerance. I was not referring to a zero-tolerance policy at work, I meant in general. This means if you are a CAF member, you don't; drink.

That being said, I think that there are some steps that we can take to try and improve overall professionalism in the CAF, part of it would involve treating Jr NCM as adults, although many repeatedly prove that they can't be trusted in this manner.
Except it does not have to be an absolute or nothing. Where I work now I am treated like an adult. But I also don’t have events that encourage heavy drinking or even subsided by work booze. If I want to go out for a drink after work with my colleagues I do. If I drink at night and party outside work hours it’s my business. But in the CAF we encourage drinking, and even pay people to attend these functions. Start there. No one says zero tolerance to booze. But there is no reason for your work to enable it or provide it. Especially given our current damaged image.
 

Kilted

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Except it does not have to be an absolute or nothing. Where I work now I am treated like an adult. But I also don’t have events that encourage heavy drinking or even subsided by work booze. If I want to go out for a drink after work with my colleagues I do. If I drink at night and party outside work hours it’s my business. But in the CAF we encourage drinking, and even pay people to attend these functions. Start there. No one says zero tolerance to booze. But there is no reason for your work to enable it or provide it. Especially given our current damaged image.
And if issues still occur outside of work, is the CAF just going to wash their hands of it?
 

Jarnhamar

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Except it does not have to be an absolute or nothing. Where I work now I am treated like an adult. But I also don’t have events that encourage heavy drinking or even subsided by work booze. If I want to go out for a drink after work with my colleagues I do. If I drink at night and party outside work hours it’s my business. But in the CAF we encourage drinking, and even pay people to attend these functions. Start there. No one says zero tolerance to booze. But there is no reason for your work to enable it or provide it. Especially given our current damaged image.

We brainwash members with alcohol from day 1.

Recruits have to earn their way into the mess (reserve/regs). It's seen as a rite of passage and reward.
Officer Cadets are allowed in the mess from the start because mess life and culture is such a huge part of being an officer. But the point it's a huge part of their culture is hammered home.

What's waiting at the end of an exercise? A smoker with 2 beer- then the games start where we try and get more than 2 beer per person.
Anyone who doesn't drink is viewed with suspicion.

Soldiers heading home on HLTA at the airport bar, that's something you don't want to be the most senior guy for.

Watch military members at a civilian wedding or event. Straight to the bar then it's sitting at a table with 3 or 4 drinks in front of them pounding them down. It's pretty sad watching military members trying to enjoy an event without alcohol.

Alcohol is ingrained in us.
 

mariomike

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And if issues still occur outside of work, is the CAF just going to wash their hands of it?
Depends on the employers definition of "outside of work", I suppose.
 

Remius

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And if issues still occur outside of work, is the CAF just going to wash their hands of it?
If someone goes to bar and gets drunk and tells a girl she has nice boobs and should come home with him or her that’s just someone being an asshole. Or a very bad pick up artist. That person will tell them to just pound salt.

if it happens in a mess where the institution provided the alcohol and it happens between serving members then we have a problem. Because it’s an entirely different dynamic.

The CAF has a problem with how we treat our own. People are being assaulted and harassed within. By its own members. When a CAF member does that outside the CAF people go to the authorities and things happen. And no, generally when things happen outside the CAF we let nature takes its legal course and depending on the results we get rid of them.
 

brihard

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If someone goes to bar and gets drunk and tells a girl she has nice boobs and should come home with him or her that’s just someone being an asshole. Or a very bad pick up artist. That person will tell them to just pound salt.

if it happens in a mess where the institution provided the alcohol and it happens between serving members then we have a problem. Because it’s an entirely different dynamic.

The CAF has a problem with how we treat our own. People are being assaulted and harassed within. By its own members. When a CAF member does that outside the CAF people go to the authorities and things happen. And no, generally when things happen outside the CAF we let nature takes its legal course and depending on the results we get rid of them.

A distinction to note is that the employer is accountable for anything that happens in the work environment. If it happens in the mess, CAF owns it, beyond simply having a disciplinary issue to deal with. When CAF provides the licensed premise, or makes the member attend the event, more of it is on the institution.
 

trigger324

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Now you’re getting Personal. I’d advise you to stop resorting to veiled insults. I’ve been in this earth and served 38 years so have some respect.
Sorry, no, I’m not getting personal towards you and you clearly missed the mark regarding my sentiment. I called out a mindset that still largely exists in an overdue for change organization. If you subscribe to that mindset, then that would not be on me.

Regarding years of service I see no reason to drop a figure like that in a conversation on a message board where I believe we’re equals. I didn’t join yesterday myself but would have never used the line in order to gain unnoticed respect that’s been there all along.
 

ModlrMike

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Why don't we just invest in several miles of rope and start at the top?
 

CBH99

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I’m not being confrontational, I’m replying to each statement when I get a notification of a reply. I’m incredibly self aware, but I do note smart ass off the cuff remarks when they’re sent my way. I’m being as diplomatic as I possibly can with everyone, but I may be misread. However I feel passionately about this subject, having a distant connection to it, and when I’m agreed with but still served with a side of “settle the f down”, I tend to wonder why people feel a need to tell me so. And so I ask.
I appreciate your reply and will formulate one in return when I have a few moments.
I appreciate this post. It’s tricky when several people are talking about a topic that can be so angering, frustrating, disheartening, etc etc.

Without hearing each other talk, and hearing the tone and context in which people are chatting, it’s easy to misread the tone or context of some people’s posts.

Earlier today, I think I had misread the tone of your post was all.

I apologize for the post after that one, I was very much misreading the tone & was snippy back.

**I DO appreciate - truly - you’re strong stance against this kind of crap, and willingness to handle this s**t head on, with none of the BS covering up, ignoring, or downplaying. Truly. It’s an attitude & willingness that not just the CAF needs. 👍🏻👍🏻

I misread the tone of your posts & took them to be suggesting that investigations are a waste of time & people should be punished right after the allegation is made. Again, my apologies for the snippy post.
 

OldSolduer

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Have it your way. I’m done with this thread.
you don’t get it. I’m
Sorry, no, I’m not getting personal towards you and you clearly missed the mark regarding my sentiment. I called out a mindset that still largely exists in an overdue for change organization. If you subscribe to that mindset, then that would not be on me.

Regarding years of service I see no reason to drop a figure like that in a conversation on a message board where I believe we’re equals. I didn’t join yesterday myself but would have never used the line in order to gain unnoticed respect that’s been there all along.
ok I get it. You want change. So do I. You’re in a rush to judge and convict with no regard for due process, which must be followed. If we start by convicting with out due process we are no better than dictators around the world.
 

Kilted

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Ok so changing the subject from the benefit/disadvantages of disbanding all messes, what is the likelihood that the CAF/DND/G of C will actually decide to do this? If it's being discussed here, it has probably been brought up in NDHQ.
 

Jarnhamar

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ok I get it. You want change. So do I. You’re in a rush to judge and convict with no regard for due process, which must be followed. If we start by convicting with out due process we are no better than dictators around the world.

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone is calling for us to sentence people without a trial or any sort of due process.

The CAF has done nothing in the last 30 years to prove we're ready or able to take this topic seriously and affect change. The often hated and ridiculed media appears to be the best moral compass we as an institution have right now.

I think what people are saying is that what we've been doing for the last 30, 40+ years failed, and it's time for an actual new approach; not stermly worded emails and DLN courses.

We're in a place where a general or senior officer we've spent years (and hundreds of thousands of dollars? millions?) training can have someone say they had their ass slapped 8 years ago at a mess function and they're being replaced before the investigation is taking place.

That's the place we've been put in by the CAFs complacency. I don't think anyone is buying CAF assurances or promises anymore.
 
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TCM621

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What do you define as "handsy?"

If one of your subordinates comes to you after a Troop party and tells you that another drunk soldier cornered them at the party, grabbed them by the waist, touched their chest and posterior and propositioned them. They broke away, but are shaken by the event.

What would your actions be?
Handsy is just a term for unwanted touching that isn't a clear grope. A grope being touching you know is unwanted but do anyway. One is done out of ignorance or stupidity and the other is done intentionally.

The second question is harder because context is key. In today's climate I would fire that up higher so fast you would cartoon tires squealing. I am not risking my pension over this shit. My best efforts could easily end up in the Globe and Mail.

I am assuming, however, you meant ideally. The first thing I would do is try to get as much detail as possible. Ask her what she thought was going on, ie does she think he was deliberately cornering her or was he close talking in a corner. The effect can be the same but one implies a different intent. I would ask if she will feel unsafe around this person at work. If the answer is yes, I would have to engage my CoC at that point. Otherwise, I would ask her if she wants me to handle it or make a complaint. If she wants to handle it at the lowest level, I would have a very firm discussion with the offending subordinate and force him to apologize in person for his ungentlemanly behaviour (provided the victim agreed). I would also firmly remind the individual of the consequences of a second such incident, legal, administrative and other. At every point I would reassess as I got more information. For example, if the individual has a drinking problem but is perfectly ok while sober maybe a referral to mental health and some C&P related to alcohol misuse maybe warranted. It's hard to say without context but if I can satisfy the victim and have a chance to turn the offender into a better person, I'm going to go with it.

Interestingly, 20-25 years ago it was much simpler. I would have threatened to shove my boot so far up the guy's ass he would have had to open his mouth to polish them. Then I would have had a conversation with his (and her) troop mates about looking after one and other. That should never happen at a troop party. The people who left one of their own to be cornered by a drunk failed and the people who let one of their own get so drunk, then left him unsupervised, so that he cornered a woman failed.
 

mariomike

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Remius

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Ok so changing the subject from the benefit/disadvantages of disbanding all messes, what is the likelihood that the CAF/DND/G of C will actually decide to do this? If it's being discussed here, it has probably been brought up in NDHQ.
Between you and I, I doubt they disband messes. But paid drinking functions, forced events and free and subsidized drinks should stop. Start pricing drinks at current market rates would be a start.

start encouraging “guests” or dates to be brought to events. You won’t act like a moron if your wife, girlfriend, partner or if your subordinates have a guest as well.

changing the culture requires a lot of little changes over time.

I’ve identified what I think is a problem. Alcohol, and events that promote alcohol and activities hidden from public view.

Is it the only problem? No. But we have to start by making tough decisions and making bigger changes than just an “Order” or courses like Jarn said. We are no further ahead than we were in the 90s. And it seems to be worse Image wise.
 
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