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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

OldSolduer

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Tell me about it. We can “thank” Big Rick for that. 😐
At the time that was needed. Our - your mandate as a member of the CAF is to kill people, bottom line or support those who do the killing. The CAF or some within it, had forgotten that. Personally I don't buy into the warrior thing but like I said, it was a reminder to those who thought we were only "Peacekeepers". BTW we weren't in the peacekeeping business until 1956.
 

Infanteer

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Max, I share G2Gs sentiments - those seem like good examples of real ways to improve the situation.

I think, in the past, empathy took a backseat to "Get 'er Done!" - while one was encouraged to be a good leader and take care of subordinates, success was gauged upon dealing with less and driving the organization to "Get 'er Done!" Although the pendulum will, like always, swing this way and that, I'd like to think that maybe we'll achieve more balance between to two as we go through this in the CAF.
 

SeaKingTacco

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On a personal level, for example, I started using gender-neutral language, I stopped (a long time ago) using so-called fighter pilot speak (that tended exclude women, was crude and was full of sexual innuendos), and I am making an effort to minimize the effects of pregnancy on career development (like writing PERs, despite a short observation period). On a organizational level, in my previous unit, I set aside 2 hours a week on Fridays for my Branch to talk about issues in the unit and tried to incorporate inclusivity in the mix. I am also actively having small group, casual, discussions with peers and subordinates to try and make them view the world from women’s and minorities’ lens and try to foster ideas on how to combat it within the institution. I am a strong believer that if solutions come from the lowest levels, they tend to work better than if they are forced down the CoC.

The first step, however, was to acknowledge that some things I did contributed to the marginalization of women and visible minorities and that many of our own policies tend to favour the white, anglo-saxon male.
Just to show you how perspectives can differ, I never got the sense that the CAF was rigged in favour anglo-saxons (I will stipulate to the Male and white part of your argument). I was born and raised in Western Canada. It was made clear to me throughout my career that, no matter how much effort I spent learning french, it would never overcome the mere fact that I has not been born in the stretch of Canada between Ottawa and Quebec City.

I say this not to claim victimhood (I am not a victim), but only to demonstrate that sometimes well meaning policies can leave many people feeling like an outsider.
 

SupersonicMax

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Just to show you how perspectives can differ, I never got the sense that the CAF was rigged in favour anglo-saxons (I will stipulate to the Male and white part of your argument). I was born and raised in Western Canada. It was made clear to me throughout my career that, no matter how much effort I spent learning french, it would never overcome the mere fact that I has not been born in the stretch of Canada between Ottawa and Quebec City.

I say this not to claim victimhood (I am not a victim), but only to demonstrate that sometimes well meaning policies can leave many people feeling like an outsider.
For the anglo-saxon comment, just look at how many trades training courses are solely conducted in English, or if it is conducted in French, the reference material is only available in English. That in itself is a massive advantage for the anglophones.
 

SeaKingTacco

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For the anglo-saxon comment, just look at how many trades training courses are solely conducted in English, or if it is conducted in French, the reference material is only available in English. That in itself is a massive advantage for the anglophones.
That is absolutely an advantage in the first part of one’s career, but not if you aspire to higher rank.

The fact that aviation is (largely) in English is not some anglo-saxon conspiracy- it is that way by international convention.

Again, this usefully points out how perspectives differ.
 

SupersonicMax

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That is absolutely an advantage in the first part of one’s career, but not if you aspire to higher rank.

It is always a disadvantage. No matter how familiar I am with English, I am still not as comfortable as I would in French and, especially when I am tired, make mistakes.

The fact that aviation is (largely) in English is not some anglo-saxon conspiracy- it is that way by international convention.
I believed that when I went through training (largely because this is what I was told). Until I went to France. They conduct the entirety of their flight training in French. Yes, they require a minimum level of English competency but their training is all in French (and even speak with ATC in French). Training is where you learn the basics of your trade and in the case of aircrew training, the basis of safety. There is no real space for mis-interpretation. I am wondering how many people did not develop to their full potential (or failed training) because of the language barrier. There is a way to conduct flight training in French. We just don't have a real will do to so.

This is also not only true for aircrew trades training but also some tech training.
 

Furniture

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It is always a disadvantage. No matter how familiar I am with English, I am still not as comfortable as I would in French and, especially when I am tired, make mistakes.


I believed that when I went through training (largely because this is what I was told). Until I went to France. They conduct the entirety of their flight training in French. Yes, they require a minimum level of English competency but their training is all in French (and even speak with ATC in French). Training is where you learn the basics of your trade and in the case of aircrew training, the basis of safety. There is no real space for mis-interpretation. I am wondering how many people did not develop to their full potential (or failed training) because of the language barrier. There is a way to conduct flight training in French. We just don't have a real will do to so.

This is also not only true for aircrew trades training but also some tech training.
Alternately, in trades where English is the language of instruction all French speaking members receive English language training prior to coursing. When they are a few years in many achieve at least BBB, while English speakers can spend an entire 20+ year career asking for SLT and never receive it. I was just forced to choose between a coupe of weeks of SLT twice a week or ILP... Which do you think I chose?

When the French speakers and the English speakers are MCpl/Sgt/WO, who do you think is disadvantaged by the system then? The people who spent a year learning a new language at 18, or the ones who used Rosetta Stone at their own expense, and on their free time?
 

SeaKingTacco

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It is always a disadvantage. No matter how familiar I am with English, I am still not as comfortable as I would in French and, especially when I am tired, make mistakes.


I believed that when I went through training (largely because this is what I was told). Until I went to France. They conduct the entirety of their flight training in French. Yes, they require a minimum level of English competency but their training is all in French (and even speak with ATC in French). Training is where you learn the basics of your trade and in the case of aircrew training, the basis of safety. There is no real space for mis-interpretation. I am wondering how many people did not develop to their full potential (or failed training) because of the language barrier. There is a way to conduct flight training in French. We just don't have a real will do to so.

This is also not only true for aircrew trades training but also some tech training.
See, once again, perspectives differ. Your perspective is not wrong- just different than mine.
 

SupersonicMax

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Alternately, in trades where English is the language of instruction all French speaking members receive English language training prior to coursing. When they are a few years in many achieve at least BBB, while English speakers can spend an entire 20+ year career asking for SLT and never receive it. I was just forced to choose between a coupe of weeks of SLT twice a week or ILP... Which do you think I chose?

When the French speakers and the English speakers are MCpl/Sgt/WO, who do you think is disadvantaged by the system then? The people who spent a year learning a new language at 18, or the ones who used Rosetta Stone at their own expense, and on their free time?
I'll take learning my trade in my native language. BBB is hardly enough to fully understand courseware to the level a native speaker would.

I was never given SLT, besides one year at RMC (after which I was apparently able to get a BBB, although I believe the tests were easier back then). I learned by being immersed in an environment where I did not have a choice. The beginnings were rough...
 

SeaKingTacco

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I'll take learning my trade in my native language. BBB is hardly enough to fully understand courseware to the level a native speaker would.

I was never given SLT, besides one year at RMC (after which I was apparently able to get a BBB, although I believe the tests were easier back then). I learned by being immersed in an environment where I did not have a choice. The beginnings were rough...
You have learned that the “BBB” in English is given out too freely (you could have benefitted from more instruction) and I have learned that the “BBB” in French requires one to attend the Sorbonne, apparently.

Sorry- I seriously did not mean to de-rail this into a language debate. What I think that I successfully demonstrated is that even amongst what are perceived by many as the “privileged group“, people perceive unfairness.
 

OldSolduer

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Well SKT I’ll derail it further. I went on my WO course in Gagetown and learned I was in the Franco section. When I pointed out to the Crse WO I was Anglo, he basically told me to suck it up and carry on. He was a VanDoo.
So I did. It was a good move. I enjoyed working with Francos and could at least comprehend what they were trying to get across.
 

trigger324

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At the time that was needed. Our - your mandate as a member of the CAF is to kill people, bottom line or support those who do the killing. The CAF or some within it, had forgotten that. Personally I don't buy into the warrior thing but like I said, it was a reminder to those who thought we were only "Peacekeepers". BTW we weren't in the peacekeeping business until 1956.
I disagree. Since the vast majority of the public has been described here(on this site) as indifferent among other things to the organization, the message resonated with one group only(the people being pumped up), and to them it went straight to their head.
 

Remius

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At the time that was needed. Our - your mandate as a member of the CAF is to kill people, bottom line or support those who do the killing. The CAF or some within it, had forgotten that. Personally I don't buy into the warrior thing but like I said, it was a reminder to those who thought we were only "Peacekeepers". BTW we weren't in the peacekeeping business until 1956.
It’s an interesting subject. But I personally disagree. As the article demonstrated or argued, we needed and still need a professional fighting force akin to the roman centurion model and that’s what needed reminding. We still need reminding today. That does not mean we can’t encourage a fighting spirit but the warrior culture is a thing we never should have adopted. Certain smaller specialized units certainly benefit form the “warrior” mentality but it isn’t something that needs to be adopted by the institution as a whole. Fighting spirit, professional soldiering. Yes. Warrior culture, not so much.
 

Remius

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Well SKT I’ll derail it further. I went on my WO course in Gagetown and learned I was in the Franco section. When I pointed out to the Crse WO I was Anglo, he basically told me to suck it up and carry on. He was a VanDoo.
So I did. It was a good move. I enjoyed working with Francos and could at least comprehend what they were trying to get across.
Lol. Same thing happened to me. My first official language is French though. But my entire career had been in English. Turns out half my section was composed of about half French guys like me who had been used to doing things in English. So wasn’t a big issue in the end.

sorry for the derail.
 

Jarnhamar

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I think, in the past, empathy took a backseat to "Get 'er Done!" - while one was encouraged to be a good leader and take care of subordinates, success was gauged upon dealing with less and driving the organization to "Get 'er Done!" Although the pendulum will, like always, swing this way and that, I'd like to think that maybe we'll achieve more balance between to two as we go through this in the CAF.

Get get' er done mentality is alive and prospering today IMO.

Leaders constantly tell their subordinates how much they care because that's what they're told they're supposed to tell their subordinates. You see pretty quickly who actually cares and who's making platitudes.

I think we talk about caring more today than 20 years ago, but I think we care less.
 

Infanteer

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I think we talk about caring more today than 20 years ago, but I think we care less.
I don't know about that. I'm always suspicious about "things were sure a lot better way back when." If we cared more 20 years ago, do you think we'd have all these ugly stories bubbling up from the past?
 

OldSolduer

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I don't know about that. I'm always suspicious about "things were sure a lot better way back when." If we cared more 20 years ago, do you think we'd have all these ugly stories bubbling up from the past?
Things weren’t. When the OC said to his CSM “I want this man charged” the “Justice” was swift and unfair. The Summary Trial was conducted within hours of the OC giving direction. You were tried by the very OC who wanted you charged.
 

mariomike

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If we cared more 20 years ago, do you think we'd have all these ugly stories bubbling up from the past?
I think people have always cared about the news. But, all I knew 20 years ago was what I read in the paper.
 

QV

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Things weren’t. When the OC said to his CSM “I want this man charged” the “Justice” was swift and unfair. The Summary Trial was conducted within hours of the OC giving direction. You were tried by the very OC who wanted you charged.
Which for disciplinary matters is entirely appropriate and should be the standard. There is no reason this shouldn't happen when a soldier is absent without authority, or insubordinate, all the minor offences etc. Today, if a trooper is late it's either ignored or they act as though it's the OJ Simpson trial with all involved and the paper and "investigation"... maybe a month later if you're lucky the trooper is finally dealt with and weakly. That doesn't foster discipline, that's a joke.

A trooper was given a timing and didn't meet it, absent a compelling reason for being late, the punishment should be swift.

I was late once as a 'no hook Pte', I was immediately marched in to the RSM (at double time and hatless) where I was given the option of his punishment or go to a summary trial by CO. I took the RSM's dish and worked duty over several weekends. I was never late again.
 
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