Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[SupersonicMax]

Given the number of allegations of misconduct amongst the General Officer population, I figured it warranted its own thread. Here’s one more, this time, CMP.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/military-commander-haydn-edmundson-past-allegations-no-charges-laid-1.5941384?fbclid=IwAR060-2o6gTyvr0Xshxhxs6LGyLs_fgWA910v0wa5wQ5Tfva5fZUGJVGPP8

 

[Navy_Pete]

For ref, quick Google search shows we have about 136 GOFOs according to the CAF (which seems like a lot) if anyone is curious about the incident rate for the population.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department...taff-as-part-of-the-2020-canadian-armed-.html

Nice to see Mr. Drapeau got his talking head points in there though. I'm assuming he has a monthly quota of news reports to comment on.

 

[Edward Campbell]

And here's another: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mi...allegations-no-charges-laid-1.5941384?cmp=rss VAdm Edmundson is facing allegations of inappropriate conduct, including suggestive comments, unwanted sexual advances, predatory behaviour and relationships with female subordinates in the late 1990s.

 

[medicineman]

And here's another: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mi...allegations-no-charges-laid-1.5941384?cmp=rss VAdm Edmundson is facing allegations of inappropriate conduct, including suggestive comments, unwanted sexual advances, predatory behaviour and relationships with female subordinates in the late 1990s.

He was CO REG when my wife was posted there...not surprised given some of the stuff she told me and I'd actually seen. Maybe she should give the investigator a call... 🍿

 

[Weinie]

He was CO REG when my wife was posted there...not surprised given some of the stuff she told me and I'd actually seen. Maybe she should give the investigator a call... 🍿

Line up. This is one of the allegations that is going to have legs

 

[OldSolduer]

Line up. This is one of the allegations that is going to have legs

I'm a bit disturbed (not surprised) by the tomfoolery in the GOFO ranks - and those that indulge in this sort of behavior actually ruin it for the good ones. I think there are stormy seas ahead.

 

[medicineman]

I'm a bit disturbed (not surprised) by the tomfoolery in the GOFO ranks - and those that indulge in this sort of behavior actually ruin it for the good ones. I think there are stormy seas ahead.

The issue at hand here with this guy is stuff he did as a LCdr...and then likely continued as he went forward as he got let off those complaints - they tend to keep up with the nonsense because they got away with it and or they're protected. The other issue is the attitudes of a Commander reflect in their command...I can discuss offline if you like.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Commanding officers interfered in sexual assault investigations, retired military police officer says​

Link

A former military police officer says he faced commanding officers who interfered in his sexual assault cases and prosecutors who were reluctant to move forward with charges within the Canadian Armed Forces' justice system.

 

[MilEME09]

Commanding officers interfered in sexual assault investigations, retired military police officer says​

Link

Well there goes any faith the public had in the military justice system, these allegations put into question if allegations were investigated properly.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well there goes any faith the public had in the military justice system, these allegations put into question if allegations were investigated properly.

Notwithstanding CO’s who do boneheaded things like attempt to interfere in an MP investigation (which could be a service offence all of it’s own, so why does the MP Group not lay charges against those people?) every time it is suggested by various interests that we do away with the NDA and send all criminal investigations and charges downtown to the civilian system, people to be reminded that then there would be no way to handle cases that happen overseas on deployment- which is the whole point of the NDA. It gives the CAF a world wide system of discipline and justice.

Alleged sexual assualt in, say Afghanistan? the Criminal Code doesn’t apply outside Canada. So then you have two choices- ignore the assault or let the crime be investigated and charged by local forces. Let that sink in.

War Crimes? Well, I guess we have send that trial to the Hague to the International War Crimes Tribunal...

Even in Canada- two soldiers get into a scrap in the shacks. Do you really want to send then downtown to provincial court onto already overloaded docket?

There are possible reforms without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need to maintain the ability to conduct trials and dispense justice on a worldwide basis, which means the system still has to be exercised in Canada. Here is what I would do:

-Create a military trials division of Federal Court. Once a military judge is appointed, they would get seconded to the Federal Court and operate under the supervision of the Chief Justice there. They would still be members of the CAF, but only nominally. That should take care of any suggestion that they are not independent.

-the MP Group should be blown up and rebuilt. Rather than trying to be the second best federal police force in Canada, I would have them focus on what should be their core functions: security, traffic control in the field and garrison, Regimental and unit policing for NDA (non-CCC) offences and POW handling. I would bring in the RCMP establish a Det on each base to replace CFNIS to handle all investigations of Criminal Code offences. That way, there is again no suggestion that the Chain of Command could possibly have any influence on them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Notwithstanding CO’s who do boneheaded things like attempt to interfere in an MP investigation (which could be a service offence all of it’s own, so why does the MP Group not lay charges against those people?) every time it is suggested by various interests that we do away with the NDA and send all criminal investigations and charges downtown to the civilian system, people to be reminded that then there would be no way to handle cases that happen overseas on deployment- which is the whole point of the NDA. It gives the CAF a world wide system of discipline and justice.

Alleged sexual assualt in, say Afghanistan? the Criminal Code doesn’t apply outside Canada. So then you have two choices- ignore the assault or let the crime be investigated and charged by local forces. Let that sink in.

War Crimes? Well, I guess we have send that trial to the Hague to the International War Crimes Tribunal...

Even in Canada- two soldiers get into a scrap in the shacks. Do you really want to send then downtown to provincial court onto already overloaded docket?

There are possible reforms without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We need to maintain the ability to conduct trials and dispense justice on a worldwide basis, which means the system still has to be exercised in Canada. Here is what I would do:

-Create a military trials division of Federal Court. Once a military judge is appointed, they would get seconded to the Federal Court and operate under the supervision of the Chief Justice there. They would still be members of the CAF, but only nominally. That should take care of any suggestion that they are not independent.

-the MP Group should be blown up and rebuilt. Rather than trying to be the second best federal police force in Canada, I would have them focus on what should be their core functions: security, traffic control in the field and garrison, Regimental and unit policing for NDA (non-CCC) offences and POW handling. I would bring in the RCMP establish a Det on each base to replace CFNIS to handle all investigations of Criminal Code offences. That way, there is again no suggestion that the Chain of Command could possibly have any influence on them.

Or you could just have a convenient, local, Hill in every garrison

 

[brihard]

War Crimes? Well, I guess we have send that trial to the Hague to the International War Crimes Tribunal...

War crimes are an offense under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. It essentially patriates and codifies the Rome Statute, and various customary international law such as the Geneva and Hague conventions, and other agreements Canada has ratified. Any war crime or crime against humanity may be prosecuted domestically if the perpetrator was a Canadian citizen, or if the perpetrator enters Canada, or if there’s a Canadian victim. In a hypothetical case of a CAF member committing a war crime, it could be investigated by the RCMP’s Sensitive and International Investigations unit - they have a team that handles any war crimes files - and prosecuted by PPSC under the CAHWCA. The investigation and prosecution of this class of offense, at least, could survive a lack of applicable military law.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

War crimes are an offense under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. It essentially patriates and codifies the Rome Statute, and various customary international law such as the Geneva and Hague conventions, and other agreements Canada has ratified. Any war crime or crime against humanity may be prosecuted domestically if the perpetrator was a Canadian citizen, or if the perpetrator enters Canada, or if there’s a Canadian victim. In a hypothetical case of a CAF member committing a war crime, it could be investigated by the RCMP’s Sensitive and International Investigations unit - they have a team that handles any war crimes files - and prosecuted by PPSC under the CAHWCA. The investigation and prosecution of this class of offense, at least, could survive a lack of applicable military law.

Thanks for the clarification and correction, Brihard. I appreciate your expertise.

any other corrections that you would make to my suggestions?

 

[blacktriangle]

Commanding officers interfered in sexual assault investigations, retired military police officer says​

Link

I believe him 100%. He actually alluded to this before the current round of media scrutiny. Good on him for standing up, and speaking out.

 

[Good2Golf]

Commanding officers interfered in sexual assault investigations, retired military police officer says​

Link

Such COs should have been prosecuted for interfering in such investigations. To not hold them to account just reinforce unacceptable behaviour by leaders. Frankly, they should still hold them to account as the NdA still applies, even if those COs are no longer serving. THAT would help change the culture.

 

[YZT580]

-the MP Group should be blown up and rebuilt. Rather than trying to be the second best federal police force in Canada, I would have them focus on what should be their core functions: security, traffic control in the field and garrison, Regimental and unit policing for NDA (non-CCC) offences and POW handling. I would bring in the RCMP establish a Det on each base to replace CFNIS to handle all investigations of Criminal Code offences. That way, there is again no suggestion that the Chain of Command could possibly have any influence on them.

With all the politics and scandal associated with RCMP right now do you really want to just add to your problems?

 

[QV]

This problem can be boiled down to one systemic issue: Within the military, there is too much overlap between service offences and offences under the Criminal Code. This includes how S. 130 NDA has been applied over the years. S. 130 (1)(a) should be repealed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Such COs should have been prosecuted for interfering in such investigations. To not hold them to account just reinforce unacceptable behaviour by leaders. Frankly, they should still hold them to account as the NdA still applies, even if those COs are no longer serving. THAT would help change the culture.

It seems to me that, from LCol on up, there is a distinct lack of oversight/ accountability/ coaching/ mentoring/ ass kicking/ back patting of any kind. Bde HQ fires a few rockets your way every once in awhile, then you bob and weave in response, but that's about it.

But that's just me from my puny little underling POV

 

[MilEME09]

Now in regards to who can be a judge against a CDS, if the charges end up applicable in civilian court would a judge from the Supreme Court be appropriate?

 

[Weinie]

Now in regards to who can be a judge against a CDS, if the charges end up applicable in civilian court would a judge from the Supreme Court be appropriate?

FJAG will be the best source for confirmation, but if they are civilian charges, any judge so empowered to hear that level of charge would be appropriate. Then, there is perception.