Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[PPCLI Guy]

Rant time

For those of who have operational time, does it seem odd that a combat veteran would reach out to another to see how they are doing? If they were under stress? Send up the count but only for your people|? What the actual fuck?

We are all of us soldiers et al

Rant off.. Carry on with the business of the press, which is the character assassinations of good people, to sell a fucking click bait.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Rant time

For those of who have operational time, does it seem odd that a combat veteran would reach out to another to see how they are doing? If they were under stress? Send up the count but only for your people|? What the actual fuck?

We are all of us soldiers et al

Rant off.. Carry on with the business of the press, which is the character assassinations of good people, to sell a fucking click bait.

If you believe that sexual misconduct allegations and the associated institutional shortfalls are click bait, you are (were) part of the problem. Going golfing with buddies is probably fine. But when there is a clear conflict of interest, you can’t do that. On top of that, it was (allegedly) under wraps, trying to conceal Vance’s presence. Doing so jeopardized even more the very little credibility the CAF has left when it comes to policing itself... People that were seen as good men before perhaps were not so good after all.

 

[ballz]

Rant time

For those of who have operational time, does it seem odd that a combat veteran would reach out to another to see how they are doing? If they were under stress? Send up the count but only for your people|? What the actual fuck?

We are all of us soldiers et al

Rant off.. Carry on with the business of the press, which is the character assassinations of good people, to sell a fucking click bait.

Particularly when it comes to Rouleau, I can't say your sentiment resonates with me in anyway. In fact I think it's a bit out of touch. Rouleau should definitely have abstained, period. There's a lot of big talk about how the needs of the service and the team is bigger than yourself. That's easy to parrot at town halls with some buzzwords, now they need to put their money where their mouth is and they can't. Apparently it's even indignant to ask that of them now??

Let's say you're a Cpl, and there's a UDI ongoing in your unit because it's alleged that your Pl WO mistreated his subordinates in manner that may contravene the NDA. How much faith do you think the troops are going to have, both in the process/procedures themselves, and in the people in charge of those processes/procedures (i.e. unit leadership), if they know the Pl WO is out golfing with the RSM while the investigation goes on?

Is it not a reasonable expectation that the RSM doesn't go golfing with the guy at the Oromocto Golf Club which is full of the unit's troops at every hole, while the UDI is ongoing?

The fact that the RSM and WO fought in Afghanistan together actually doesn't help matters when it comes to accountability/transparency/having faith that things will be handled well, but at least that part we can say hand-on-heart is an unavoidable part of the business, we're always going to have that type of relationship/friendship existing.... but at least the RSM could show even the mildest amount of restraint and not go golfing with him at the Oromocto golf club where every can see it happening, because the RSM should know it's bad enough a WO is being investigated for this, the troops need to have confidence the unit leadership is handling it correctly and not sweeping it under the rug as they often expect because that's what they see happen so often.

Yeah, sure, technically the CSM is doing the UDI and the RSM has nothing to do with it, hell he's not even in the Chain of Command.... "don't worry Cpl Bloggins, you've got nothing to worry about, this is all being handled with the utmost professionalism, just look at our previous track record, we're always really professional when we do these things, nothing to worry about!"

I'm sure, like the WO, Jon Vance has other battle buddies. Hell, maybe the RSM can even tell someone else to make sure someone checks in with him, without personally doing it himself. I think that'd be a fair play. I'm sure there's lots of retired people still buddy-buddy with Vance that he didn't need Rouleau of all the f**king people he could pick from.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Rant time

For those of who have operational time, does it seem odd that a combat veteran would reach out to another to see how they are doing? If they were under stress? Send up the count but only for your people|? What the actual fuck?

We are all of us soldiers et al

Rant off.. Carry on with the business of the press, which is the character assassinations of good people, to sell a fucking click bait.

As Adjt I once had to deal with two Officers, friends, who were accused of sexual assault.

We had served together on operational tours, partied on weekends, lived in the mess together etc.

During the investigation we had no contact with each other at all. No one told us to do that. It just made sense and seemed to serve the needs of the case. We all understood that.

Once the case was cleared up (they were exonerated) things went back to normal. No hard feelings.

All three of us were Captains, aged between about 27 and 29 years at the time.

We figured it out.

It's just too bad that a bunch of the most senior Officers in the CAF couldn't have done the same.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't get it. These are really smart people, and have been managing their public image for years.

I have seen this comment a few times in this thread, not by you; you're just the last one to say it.

Are they really that smart ? There seems to be some problem in the ethical decision making capabilities of our senior leadership.

 

[Remius]

I have seen this comment a few times in this thread, not by you; you're just the last one to say it.

Are they really that smart ? There seems to be some problem in the ethical decision making capabilities of our senior leadership.

I think a lot of smart people get to a point where they think they are untouchable or that something seems minor to them that it must be minor for anyone else.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think a lot of smart people get to a point where they think they are untouchable or that something seems minor to them that it must be minor for anyone else.

So smart they get stupid ?

 

[Remius]

Honestly, I think this whole thing was a serious lack of judgment. If these guys had just planned a normal game on some course somewhere else this would still have have made the news I’m sure of it. But the fact that it seems like attempts were made to conceal it is what gives this story more legs.

A simple bbq at someone’s home might have sufficed but I doubt even that would have been seen in a good light (but at least it had a smaller chance of making the news).

Given the current climate I think these two have now had a career stoppage. Unfortunately the current climate does not give due process. But those two should have known better. There is a bounty on GOFOs. I doubt they were unaware of that and should have been extra cautious if not ridiculously cautious about anything they do.

when I was MCpl teaching on course, after all that SHARP training in the nineties I changed my habits with recruits. Not because I was doing anything wrong but because the perception might be viewed that way. Especially with female recruits. Where once I might have adjusted a beret or gently pushed an arm in tighter to the body to correct the position of attention before I stopped completely doing that and just telling them. Even then as young MCPl I knew that even if what I was doing was completely innocent it could be perceived the wrong way. So given the climate I was being extra diligent.

If a MCpl can figure that out why can’t two of our top generals?

 

[Remius]

So smart they get stupid ?

Or careless.

 

[gryphonv]

The part i'm confused about is this event would of been on their schedules for some time. People around them would of known in advance that the golfing event was planned and with who it was planned.

I highly doubt none of their subordinates would of mentioned the bad optics of this. I've worked under Vice Admiral Baines when he was Esquimalt's Base Commander. I have tremendous respect for this guy, but I also know his schedule is well planned out for weeks if not month's in advance.

I guess it is possible that nobody raised an issue with it before the event. But I highly doubt it.

 

[CBH99]

So, you must have missed this:

Maj. Kellie Brennan tells MPs Vance said he was ‘untouchable,’ fathered 2 of her kids - National | Globalnews.ca

Brennan is one of the women at the heart of allegations first reported by Global News in February about former chief of the defence staff Gen. Jonathan Vance.

globalnews.ca

Brennan claims there were threats of consequences, though not of physical violence, and she claims that she felt she could not say “no”

I just want to be sure I am clear about my position on this specific matter. I realize that unless someone is randomly reading this thread from several pages ago, it is worth repeating and clarifying.

I fully support Maj. Brennan in coming forwards with her complaints, and I genuinely support a very thorough investigation to determine the facts. If those facts support the allegations against Vance, then I believe Vance should be handled accordingly. *I personally believe that if someone in such a powerful position politically, is supposed to be a solid role model for other leaders - AND is the head honcho of Op. Honour - then he should be treated perhaps more harshly than others. I cannot stress enough how much I truly appreciate and value individuals who lead from the front, by example, and own up to mistakes - the older I get, the more I appreciate those qualities.

I am very much inclined to support someone who comes forwards & reports misconduct. I am also in no way, shape, or form in a position to question or comment on any specifics until the results of the investigations are released to the public. I'm in the same boat as everybody else here, and have access to the same info.

I am not attempting to victim blame in the slightest. And my opinion is very much open to being changed on the matter, I am very much trying to take the approach of 'wait and see what comes out in the investigation'. However, only based on what she has said publically so far, I do find myself getting frustrated with her statements. Just facepalm type of reaction. When the details come out, perhaps that will no longer be the case.

As Adjt I once had to deal with two Officers, friends, who were accused of sexual assault.

We had served together on operational tours, partied on weekends, lived in the mess together etc.

During the investigation we had no contact with each other at all. No one told us to do that. It just made sense and seemed to serve the needs of the case. We all understood that.

Once the case was cleared up (they were exonerated) things went back to normal. No hard feelings.

All three of us were Captains, aged between about 27 and 29 years at the time.

We figured it out.

It's just too bad that a bunch of the most senior Officers in the CAF couldn't have done the same.

A few years back, I actually had a complaint filed against me and an investigation was initiated. People who I had been chatting with daily for a few years, instantly yet politely distanced themselves from me. I understood why, and just went with things.

I was exonerated, and like you said, things went back to normal pretty quickly afterwards. I was 28yo at the time.

(An individual who had been charged with some financial crimes and was going through court processes initiated a complaint, hoping they could use the fact that I was under investigation to help get them off the hook come trial.)

Like you said, nobody really discussed it. It was understood all around. Everybody was professional, and when things were all said & done, life went back to normal.


It really is a shame that some good officers are going to have their proud careers end on a negative note, due to the behaviour of their colleagues.

The part i'm confused about is this event would of been on their schedules for some time. People around them would of known in advance that the golfing event was planned and with who it was planned.

I highly doubt none of their subordinates would of mentioned the bad optics of this. I've worked under Vice Admiral Baines when he was Esquimalt's Base Commander. I have tremendous respect for this guy, but I also know his schedule is well planned out for weeks if not month's in advance.

I guess it is possible that nobody raised an issue with it before the event. But I highly doubt it.

Good point.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Honestly, I think this whole thing was a serious lack of judgment. If these guys had just planned a normal game on some course somewhere else this would still have have made the news I’m sure of it. But the fact that it seems like attempts were made to conceal it is what gives this story more legs.

People don't attempt to conceal something for no reason. They knew they didn't want to be seen together for some reason. Innocuous or not, talk about a bonehead move.

My 8 year old try's to hide things under her bed, I expect more of CAF leadership...

 

[CBH99]

Wowa... not sure how that happened with my posts. Sorry. Should have been 2 very distinct posts separated by a few hours

 

[gryphonv]

People don't attempt to conceal something for no reason. They knew they didn't want to be seen together for some reason. Innocuous or not, talk about a bonehead move.

My 8 year old try's to hide things under her bed, I expect more of CAF leadership...

Maybe, they wanted it to be seen by certain people?

 

[Remius]

People don't attempt to conceal something for no reason. They knew they didn't want to be seen together for some reason. Innocuous or not, talk about a bonehead move.

My 8 year old try's to hide things under her bed, I expect more of CAF leadership...

Agreed. But we don’t know that for sure. It sure looks that way though…

 

[Remius]

Maybe, they wanted it to be seen by certain people?

Far easier ways to do that. This wasn’t some calculated strategy. They effed up.

 

[shawn5o]

Do the author a favour and post the link and a snippet of the article. He might get a few more bucks from the clicks going to his site.

Hi Pikache
I'm not sure what you saying - the link is there

 

[shawn5o]

You posting the entire article here doesnt give Spencer Fernando visits to his website. People visiting his website might earn him some money through site traffic/ad revenue.

It's a common courtesy when you want to post someone's article.

Boy am I ever late in replying.

Again the ink is there -

You posting the entire article here doesnt give Spencer Fernando visits to his website. People visiting his website might earn him some money through site traffic/ad revenue.

It's a common courtesy when you want to post someone's article.

WTF???

Perhaps your browser doesn't show the link. I'm reposting it and it shows up on my browser -

Canada’s Military Has Become A Shambles

SPENCER FERNANDO APRIL 12, 2021

Decades of bipartisan neglect, and now a Liberal government simultaneously obsessed with political correctness and political cover-ups is betraying the once-proud legacy of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Canada's Military Has Become A Shambles​

Decades of bipartisan neglect, and now a Liberal government simultaneously obsessed with political correctness and political cover-ups is betraying the once-proud legacy of the Canadian Armed Forces. Nobody likes to say this about the Canadian Armed Forces, but the sad reality is that it has...

spencerfernando.com


Nobody likes to say this about the Canadian Armed Forces, but the sad reality is that it has become a shambles.

 

[Underway]

People don't attempt to conceal something for no reason. They knew they didn't want to be seen together for some reason. Innocuous or not, talk about a bonehead move.

My 8 year old try's to hide things under her bed, I expect more of CAF leadership...

I am completely with you HT. I almost threw my coffee across the room in frustration when I found out. As they say on Letterkenny "Figuritout!"

 

[shawn5o]

Yeah, about all those fires and floods and, oh yeah, the whole COVID response thing in Quebec etc...

It's easy to join the dog pile. It's harder to call BS when the multitudes seem to be on the same bandwagon

Hey d&d

I hope you realize those are not my words