Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[KevinB]

MGs can't make mistakes like that. For that matter Snr ranked people cannot make mistakes like that. For that matter no one can make mistakes like that. Read what Hamilton did, to a married couple also under Dawe's command. To write that character reference is a betrayal to the innocent and the victim (s).

I get it. He was/is popular and you guys knew him. It sucks, and maybe it was a temporary error in judgement. Unfortunately as a GO/FO youre a face in the organization and the example to emulate. What message are we sending, and what message do we want to send ?

I say again what are we saying to the public and CAF members by keeping him around ?

It is pretty common for an Commander to be asked to write a letter for a subordinate charged with a serious crime.

Do I think he should have written the letter - no, and I offered my personal though on the best punishment option already.
BUT since apparently no one else agrees that internally solving the issue at a low level like I suggested was acceptable - it had to go to the courts.

I also think IF he was going to write the letter he should have talked to Kevin and Annalise first, to me that is the major faux pas he made.
The CF lost two great officers when they left - and it really shouldn't have been that way.

Look you can chicken shit and red herring this all the way down to his cub Scout leader in 1979 if makes you feel better. But the fact remains Dawe wrote what he did in support of that POS Hamilton (Not the city). I'm not going to play pass the buck with you.

Keeping him in uniform is saying something to our political masters, the public, victims and CAF members at large.

It really doesn't do what you think it does.

I honestly think that MG Dawe was legitimately trying to do what he says below


LINK REMOVED AS PER SITE GUIDELINES

Dawe, in an earlier statement, said he never condoned the serious offences for which Hamilton was convicted for in civilian court. His supportive letter was to highlight that soldier’s military accomplishments and his struggles, he added in a statement.

And trust me those I talk to are getting the message loud and clear. I get ears fulls of it from both commissioned and non.

Like I said, keep on keeping on, we will reap what we sow.

So we throw out an otherwise stellar officer who mostly likely wrote the letter due to guilt/sorrow/sympathy he felt about Hamiltons PTSD?
It wasn't designed to change the outcome of the conviction - just the punishments.

I mean it isn't like he invited Hamilton to come and "co-star" a Sexual assault survivor retreat...

Canadian doctor apologises for allowing convicted sex offender to be peer support mentor for sexual abuse survivors

"If I had a chance to do it all over again, this would not have happened."

www.newshub.co.nz

 

[dapaterson]

A question: what does redemption look like?

Because right now it appears not to exist.

 

[ballz]

Who would the membership be made up of in your professional association ? Just FYI this is genuine interest.

Admittedly that's not a detail I've been able to commit a ton of bandwith to, since most of the argument has been around the merits of having one at all and plus no one is gonna listen to me anyway. In the CPA profession it's the same people who have that as a responsibility for a set period of time. They're always experienced, competent, well-respected given what it is they're being asked to do (pass judgement on others in the profession).

This would be difficult for the military, but I think we'd have to get over the idea that someone of a lower rank can't pass judgement on someone of a higher rank. I personally don't see an issue with it, but part of my personality is that I give minimal respect for ranks/titles which is not the case for everyone.

The other difficult thing is in professions, these people are often elected in some way, or appointed by someone that is elected, which gives it more credibility. I don't have enough confidence in the military leadership to pick, say 10 outstanding people to serve in this capacity. We pick a lot of garbage, this could just turn into more nepotism where Regiments are fighting for "their guy" who they want to boost the profile of, despite the fact that everyone who works with or for them thinks they're toxic and/or incompetent... or it could just become a shitty secondary duty that goes to whoever stepped on their own private parts most recently gets rewarded with.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It is pretty common for an Commander to be asked to write a letter for a subordinate charged with a serious crime.

Do I think he should have written the letter - no, and I offered my personal though on the best punishment option already.
BUT since apparently no one else agrees that internally solving the issue at a low level like I suggested was acceptable - it had to go to the courts.

I also think IF he was going to write the letter he should have talked to Kevin and Annalise first, to me that is the major faux pas he made.
The CF lost two great officers when they left - and it really shouldn't have been that way.

So we lost three officers when it should have only been 1. Awful if you ask me, you seem to have known them personally.

It really doesn't do what you think it does.

I honestly think that MG Dawe was legitimately trying to do what he says below

General who wrote reference letter for sex offender dumped from new job

Maj.-Gen. Peter Dawe will no longer be involved in working on the military’s response to various reviews of sexual misconduct in the Canadian Forces.

ottawacitizen.com

Dawe, in an earlier statement, said he never condoned the serious offences for which Hamilton was convicted for in civilian court. His supportive letter was to highlight that soldier’s military accomplishments and his struggles, he added in a statement.

What struggles should mitigate what Hamilton did ?

So we throw out an otherwise stellar officer who mostly likely wrote the letter due to guilt/sorrow/sympathy he felt about Hamiltons PTSD?
It wasn't designed to change the outcome of the conviction - just the punishments.

I mean it isn't like he invited Hamilton to come and "co-star" a Sexual assault survivor retreat...

Canadian doctor apologises for allowing convicted sex offender to be peer support mentor for sexual abuse survivors

"If I had a chance to do it all over again, this would not have happened."

www.newshub.co.nz

Lots of people were great fill in the blanks until they weren't. Why should Dawe be any different. He gets a second chance in civilians and with sweet sweet pension. The victims get a life of torment and the knowledge that their boss try to lesson the blow on their nemesis.

That retreat thing was a civilian and has been discussed here as well, dig through this thread. Just a bonehead a move.

 

[Halifax Tar]

A question: what does redemption look like?

Because right now it appears not to exist.

For Dawe ?

A pension and civis ?

I know for me I wanted blood from my abuser. But hes dead now. Not the same as Dawe agreed.

 

[KevinB]

So we lost three officers when it should have only been 1. Awful if you ask me, you seem to have known them personally.

agreed

What struggles should mitigate what Hamilton did ?

Apparently some issues with PTSD from deployments to various places...

Lots of people were great fill in the blanks until they weren't. Why should Dawe be any different. He gets a second chance in civilians and with sweet sweet pension. The victims get a life of torment and the knowledge that their boss try to lesson the blow on their nemesis.

I think he did a dumb thing - but I don't think it was something for the CF to lose another person over...

That retreat thing was a civilian and has been discussed here as well, dig through this thread. Just a bonehead a move.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Admittedly that's not a detail I've been able to commit a ton of bandwith to, since most of the argument has been around the merits of having one at all and plus no one is gonna listen to me anyway. In the CPA profession it's the same people who have that as a responsibility for a set period of time. They're always experienced, competent, well-respected given what it is they're being asked to do (pass judgement on others in the profession).

This would be difficult for the military, but I think we'd have to get over the idea that someone of a lower rank can't pass judgement on someone of a higher rank. I personally don't see an issue with it, but part of my personality is that I give minimal respect for ranks/titles which is not the case for everyone.

The other difficult thing is in professions, these people are often elected in some way, or appointed by someone that is elected, which gives it more credibility. I don't have enough confidence in the military leadership to pick, say 10 outstanding people to serve in this capacity. We pick a lot of garbage, this could just turn into more nepotism where Regiments are fighting for "their guy" who they want to boost the profile of, despite the fact that everyone who works with or for them thinks they're toxic and/or incompetent... or it could just become a shitty secondary duty that goes to whoever stepped on their own private parts most recently gets rewarded with.

Ya I was thinking about this and same as you I think our rank system makes a professional association like this difficult.

Perhaps if someday we moved to a single rank system instead of Commissioned and Non...

agreed

Apparently some issues with PTSD from deployments to various places...

I am sympathetic to PTSD but I refuse to let people hide violent and sexual crimes behind it.

I think he did a dumb thing - but I don't think it was something for the CF to lose another person over...

Fair enough, that's your position.

Like mine, that and 2$ wont even get your large coffee at Tims anymore

 

[Good2Golf]

What struggles should mitigate what Hamilton did ?

Since you asked, perhaps PTSD, such as guided the BC courts to issue an 18-month conditional community-service sentence vice jail time to a retired CWO for possession of child pornography and conspiracy to commit sexual exploitation of a 5-year old boy.

…
The Crown called for seven to 10 months of jail plus 12 to 18 months on probation, while the man’s lawyer argued the case involved extraordinary circumstances.

The court heard that the man witnessed the atrocities of war during seven combat tours and suffered acute PTSD. However, his caregivers believed he “simply suffered from depression,” until it was diagnosed in 2019 after the charges surfaced.

McKimm says the PTSD was the “central trigger” that caused the man to “turn briefly to this dark and sinister sexual predilection.

“It is a well-known symptom that those who suffer from PTSD often turn to dangerous- and risk-seeking behaviours to combat the awful symptoms they suffer from PTSD. I am satisfied that the accused here was seeking out this risky and deplorable sexualized behaviour to deal with his symptoms.”

For me personally, I don’t give as much weight to the PTSD let me do bad things argument as the Courts seem to do.

In all of this, the person I empathize with the most is Annalise, followed by Kevin. Their lives were ripped apart and the CAF did not look after them with any measurable sense of responsibility or empathy. This, IMO, is where the CAF needs most to improve.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Since you asked, perhaps PTSD, such as guided the BC courts to issue an 18-month conditional community-service sentence vice jail time to a retired CWO for possession of child pornography and conspiracy to commit sexual exploitation of a 5-year old boy.


For me personally, I don’t give as much weight to the PTSD let me do bad things argument as the Courts seem to do.

In all of this, the person I empathize with the most is Annalise, followed by Kevin. Their lives were ripped apart and the CAF did not look after them with any measurable sense of responsibility or empathy. This, IMO, is where the CAF needs most to improve.

…and both the PM and his unelected minions can, yet again claim victory.

He goes surfing, gets caught, throws the entire CAF under the bus as a distraction and we spend days arguing about a 4 year old letter.

 

[Brad Sallows]

What struggles should mitigate what Hamilton did ?

The CAF basically follows public standards/customs. So the CAF should contribute to whatever would mitigate sentence in any other context.

 

[GR66]

It is pretty common for an Commander to be asked to write a letter for a subordinate charged with a serious crime.

Do I think he should have written the letter - no, and I offered my personal though on the best punishment option already.
BUT since apparently no one else agrees that internally solving the issue at a low level like I suggested was acceptable - it had to go to the courts.

I also think IF he was going to write the letter he should have talked to Kevin and Annalise first, to me that is the major faux pas he made.
The CF lost two great officers when they left - and it really shouldn't have been that way.

To me the highlighted part is the key piece of the puzzle. As has been mentioned by others, writing a letter on behalf of a charged subordinate is not an uncommon thing. However, the victim was also a subordinate of MGen Dawe. Giving consideration to the impacts of the situation on the convicted party while not giving (at the very least) equal consideration to the victimized parties is where I see the major moral failing.

That fact to me shows a serious blindness to the fundamental issues underlying sexual assault in general and within a highly structured organization like the CF in particular. That in my mind should have disqualified MGen Dawe from any active role in the CF response to ongoing sexual misconduct issues in the military. He clearly demonstrated the type of blindness that allows a culture of harassment and assault to fester and be tacitly accepted by a portion of the military chain of command.

Do I believe that his actions/inactions should automatically preclude his further service in the CF? Personally I don't think it should...provided his error was not only acknowledged by MGen Dawe (as it was), but also be seen by the community (CF and otherwise) as being addressed by the CF leadership and action taken to ensure that everyone is aware that this was an inappropriate way to deal with this kind of situation (which to my understanding it wasn't).

 

[ModlrMike]

The retired CWO who avoided jail time due to his PTSD was a POS when he worked for me 20 years ago, and he's still a POS.

 

[KevinB]

For me personally, I don’t give as much weight to the PTSD let me do bad things argument as the Courts seem to do.

Agreed.
I think that is a terrible copout - PSTD can cause a lot of issues - but I don't think it makes anyone a rapist.


I have a zero tolerance level for this - and I want to be clear my personal recommend COA was to let Kevin and Annalise toss the offender from a helicopter and see if he could fly... It would have given a very final level of closure.

 

[Ostrozac]

The retired CWO who avoided jail time due to his PTSD was a POS when he worked for me 20 years ago, and he's still a POS.

Yeah, but doesn’t that cut right to the chase? That specific POS had 5 separate promotion boards (and 5 separate CO’s) that signed off that he was good to go. That’s the problem — it’s not just a few bad apples, it’s systemic. There are dirtbags among us, and we have not been maintaining standards; that reflects badly on not just the scumbag individuals, but on the institution, and by extension, all of us that wear the suit.

 

[Takeniteasy]

Yeah, but doesn’t that cut right to the chase? That specific POS had 5 separate promotion boards (and 5 separate CO’s) that signed off that he was good to go. That’s the problem — it’s not just a few bad apples, it’s systemic. There are dirtbags among us, and we have not been maintaining standards; that reflects badly on not just the scumbag individuals, but on the institution, and by extension, all of us that wear the suit.

And by that MG Dawe has achieved a rank of exceptional responsibility and therefor the highest accountability, attaining the General ranks is a demonstration of the ethos not solely based on individual merit but of the institution as a whole. The fact the senior leaders appointed him to this position is a far greater concern, it perpetuates their inability of empathy or even see outside the institutional paternalism that negates the effects, affects of victims.

To say we have all made mistakes is to minimize and justify the actions, its the worst response you can make as a person in a position of power.

 

[OldSolduer]

WRT the NDA and CDS the GOC and Crown own the NDA. They can and add and delete at their pleasure.

No they cannot. AFAIK the NDA is an act of Parliament, and it takes an act of Parliament to change it.

 

[brihard]

No they cannot. AFAIK the NDA is an act of Parliament, and it takes an act of Parliament to change it.

Correct.

As to the ‘civilian CDS’ thing, the RCMP tried that with Bill Elliot and that didn’t go well. Then again, Robert Paulson rose from Constable to Commissioner and was a flaming sack of crap... But then he was an RCAF pilot first, so who knows?

Anyway- civilian in charge of an organization like CAF? No go. Nothing substitutes for a career in uniform, with the operational knowledge you can only gain that way. Nor can a governmental appointment confer unwanted credibility.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Even though Bruce is a crossfitter I think he brought up salient points. People change, people deserve second chances. WRT to Gen Dawe's infamous character reference I personally think the biggest issue is (arguably) less that he wrote a letter of support for someone and more that he appears to have fucked off actual victims; who happened to be subordinates/spouses of subordinates. That's the callous part, and he seemed very callous about it.



Changing the page, once again a general in the CAF does something that leaves a hell of a lot of us scratching our head over the complete lack of common sense and attention to optics. Stuff we hammer into brand new soldiers (strategic corporal).

We generally give privates (and maybe OCdts) a bit of a break because they're new to the CAF and institution. Once that pte becomes a cpl we hold them a higher level because they've been in 3-4 years. They're a JNCO in the military. We don't let them get away with "I'm just a dumb private".

Should Canada accept generals making "I'm a private I don't know any better?" levels of excuses? Are they the same level of accountability?

I'm sure Gen. Eyre and Lt.-Gen Frances Allen have 100+ IQ points on me each. I realized appointing Gen Dawe to this position would create a huge backlash and shit storm. Am I smarter than these two generals? Do I have more common sense and sensitivity to public optics? I highly doubt it, but that leaves me wondering what the hell is going on then. Their apologies are about as genuine as Trudeau's IMO.

 

[dapaterson]

And then we are left with the Fortin conundrum: what do you do with a major general? Leave them at home doing nothing, paid, while investigations etc proceed? Or find them something to do that adds some value to the institution?

 

[ballz]

Yeah, but doesn’t that cut right to the chase? That specific POS had 5 separate promotion boards (and 5 separate CO’s) that signed off that he was good to go. That’s the problem — it’s not just a few bad apples, it’s systemic. There are dirtbags among us, and we have not been maintaining standards; that reflects badly on not just the scumbag individuals, but on the institution, and by extension, all of us that wear the suit.

Bingo. This is exactly what I expressed in my release interview. It's a culture of zero accountability.