Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[Edward Campbell]

And then we are left with the Fortin conundrum: what do you do with a major general? Leave them at home doing nothing, paid, while investigations etc proceed? Or find them something to do that adds some value to the institution?

The former is safer. The latter might be therapeutic and even worthwhile but the bureaucracy (civil and military) is, most often, risk averse.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

And then we are left with the Fortin conundrum: what do you do with a major general? Leave them at home doing nothing, paid, while investigations etc proceed? Or find them something to do that adds some value to the institution?

who is being tarred and feathered for something he is alleged to have done as a teenager 32 years ago.....

We need some perspective here folks. Anyone remember the things they did as a teenager? Or that the PM did in his 20s and 30s?

 

[KevinB]

I'm sure Gen. Eyre and Lt.-Gen Frances Allen have 100+ IQ points on me each. I realized appointing Gen Dawe to this position would create a huge backlash and shit storm. Am I smarter than these two generals? Do I have more common sense and sensitivity to public optics? I highly doubt it, but that leaves me wondering what the hell is going on then. Their apologies are about as genuine as Trudeau's IMO.

I suspect part of it is a teaching moment.
While I am sure we all know that MG Dawe knows he F'd Up - I think that role would give him some major insights into exactly how he fucked up, the consequences and the issues surrounding that -- I also think based on my knowledge of the man, he would be 110% sure that sort of action never occurred again.

 

[The Bread Guy]

While I am sure we all know that MG Dawe knows he F'd Up - I think that role would give him some major insights into exactly how he fucked up, the consequences and the issues surrounding that -- I also think based on my knowledge of the man, he would be 110% sure that sort of action never occurred again.

Which touches on this bit exactly ...

A question: what does redemption look like?

Because right now it appears not to exist.

... or, to bring up another term in the news recently in a different context but which could also apply in this situation, reconciliation? Lotsa revenge & retribution out there, but not much of those other two R's that I see right now.

 

[ModlrMike]

Yeah, but doesn’t that cut right to the chase? That specific POS had 5 separate promotion boards (and 5 separate CO’s) that signed off that he was good to go. That’s the problem — it’s not just a few bad apples, it’s systemic. There are dirtbags among us, and we have not been maintaining standards; that reflects badly on not just the scumbag individuals, but on the institution, and by extension, all of us that wear the suit.

In this case, he kept his deviance hidden in his home until the last minute. If it's not out there for us to see, how do we know? Psychopaths typically don't get caught at the start of their careers.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If I was JT I'd fire the MND and CDS. I put Leslie in as MND and a Civil Servant in as CDS. Send a message loud and clear, the BS is over.

Now here's an issue; you suggest JT has the "morale/ethical capital" to be the person deciding things such as this...despite what the recent election results were...

I do not. Any decisions coming from him could be classified as fruit of the poisoned tree....could they not?

Kobayashi Maru?​

 

[Happy Guy]

Interesting discussion.

Full disclosure.
I worked for the Gen Vance when he was the COS at LFCA. I am acquainted with the Maj Brennan (she lived in my neighbourhood).
I worked with MGen Dawe when he was a Maj a long time ago. He was a typical Inf Offr in terms of knowledge, bravado but also highly intelligent.
I worked with MGen Fortin's staff when he was with 1 Cdn Div. Highly respected.
I have received counselling and support for PTSD.
I am a qualified Harassment Advisor and Harassment Investigator.

My opinions.

Gen Vance. highly respected and professional soldier. Showed poor judgment in his sexual affair with a junior Officer. Let the civilian investigators and courts decide his fate.

Adm McDonald. I'm surprised that the Federal Gov't didn't paint him as a perpetrator like they normally do. He is not likely to come back as the CDS. He is not a Liberal PM who can get away with things that normal people cannot do. He is most likely not to come back due to being tainted by public perception. Unfortunate for the CAF.

MGen Dawe. I sympathize with MGen Dawe's plight but his letter showed poor judgment. Over the past decade and more, all of us who served, have served have received in some form or another training / briefings on sexual harassment, ethics, PTSD and leadership. Any qualified mental health professional will tell you that suffering from PTSD doesn't give you the excuse to commit sexual assault or commit crimes. MGen Dawe should have known this while writing the letter and so should have the Regiment. All sympathies and support should have been given to the victims. The CAF and the Regiment f@#K up on this. I do believe in second chances and perhaps given another time and different circumstances he should be given a second chance, but not in this case. The institution is in trouble and MGen Dawe should retire to preserve it.

MGen Fortin. Not sure of the case or details. All victims of sexual assault face years of suffering. What we may consider trivial is not in the eyes of victim. Let the judicial system do its thing. Let us remember that there is a victim here - be it is Fortin or the alleged sexual assault victim. I do feel that MGen Fortin has been tried and convicted by the general public based upon the actions of the Federal Gov't. Like VAdm Norman he isn't likely to come back which is great loss to the CAF, if he is indeed innocent.

Senior Officer (Col/Capt(N) and GO/FOs) and Senior NCOs (CWOs/CPO1s) are simply not allowed to make such lapses in judgment (minor or major)with respect to anything related to sexual harassment, violence in civil society or gross breaches in conduct or violations in societal norms.
We are witnessing now the institution is now in danger because of it. The political system will take the institution to account for itself, although the political institution itself is in dire morale shape too, but at least we can vote out them out.

The issue that society expects, and quite rightly so, great things from us, and we (those who served, have served, or supported) should step up to the plate and deliver.

Cheers

 

[MilEME09]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/danny-croucher-new-civlian-job-misconduct-allegations-1.6205306

Oh FFS.... can we go a week without something new

 

[daftandbarmy]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/danny-croucher-new-civlian-job-misconduct-allegations-1.6205306

Oh FFS.... can we go a week without something new

 

[PuckChaser]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/danny-croucher-new-civlian-job-misconduct-allegations-1.6205306

Oh FFS.... can we go a week without something new

Strong suspicion a S1/Cpl wouldn't have been granted that Voluntary Release with a 5F pending, especially now. The nepotism is real.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/danny-croucher-new-civlian-job-misconduct-allegations-1.6205306

Oh FFS.... can we go a week without something new

I honestly don't know what to say anymore. We just don't seem to get it.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Strong suspicion a S1/Cpl wouldn't have been granted that Voluntary Release with a 5F pending, especially now ...

I'd bet the same even before ....

 

[brihard]

At this point are we even surprised?

 

[Jarnhamar]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/danny-croucher-new-civlian-job-misconduct-allegations-1.6205306

Oh FFS.... can we go a week without something new

More pay, not forced to work early or late, paid over time if he chooses to work late, not ordered to "burn" his vacation days when it's convenient to the organization, not posted and forced to sell his home or live away from his family, probably a union to protect him, doesn't risk a fine in the hundreds of dollars if he's late for work. Nice score lol

So who's turn is it this time to apologize? Better come with a promise to do better!

 

[KevinB]

If I was JT I'd fire the MND and CDS. I put Leslie in as MND and a Civil Servant in as CDS. Send a message loud and clear, the BS is over.

To jump back to this -- JT is the problem...

I mean he a pretty good role model - if you want to have predators, fraud, etc...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

More pay, not forced to work early or late, paid over time if he chooses to work late, not ordered to "burn" his vacation days when it's convenient to the organization, not posted and forced to sell his home or live away from his family, probably a union to protect him, doesn't risk a fine in the hundreds of dollars if he's late for work. Nice score lol

So who's turn is it this time to apologize? Better come with a promise to do better!

The thing that real irks me about this is the leadership have asked a lot of rank and file NCOs and Officers at the Coal Face, especially over the past year or so.

The expectations are high but those same members also have expectations of their leadership. Those expectations are quite frankly, not being met, and this is EXHIBIT A!

 

[MJP]

Strong suspicion a S1/Cpl wouldn't have been granted that Voluntary Release with a 5F pending, especially now. The nepotism is real.

It happens more than folks think it should as the lack of understanding of our admin system is rife throughout the CAF. The funny part is is isn't in the AR DAOD but is in the DMCA 2 AR messages that COs are not to release pers under AR w/o consulting with DMCA first.

That said our AR processes are overly long and drawn out with too much leeway given to the mbr. We need to get beter and faster at saying good bye to people and stop trying to save everyone when they mess up

 

[OldSolduer]

To jump back to this -- JT is the problem...

I mean he a pretty good role model - if you want to have predators, fraud, etc...

JT is the issue here. Playing politics over real life issues, then blaming everyone else for his failings. Harry S Truman had a sign on his desk "the buck stops here" that signified he was responsible for every decision made by the US government.

The thing that real irks me about this is the leadership have asked a lot of rank and file NCOs and Officers at the Coal Face, especially over the past year or so.

The expectations are high but those same members also have expectations of their leadership. Those expectations are quite frankly, not being met, and this is EXHIBIT A!

I tend to agree BUT I reckon there are still many officers of the rank of Colonel or higher that still behave in an ethical and above board manner.

 

[brihard]

More pay, not forced to work early or late, paid over time if he chooses to work late, not ordered to "burn" his vacation days when it's convenient to the organization, not posted and forced to sell his home or live away from his family, probably a union to protect him, doesn't risk a fine in the hundreds of dollars if he's late for work. Nice score lol

So who's turn is it this time to apologize? Better come with a promise to do better!

Or better. If my googling is correct he was RMC class of 98, meaning he probably starting accruing pensionable service in 1994. Meaning he’s probably pulling $70k a year unreduced pension plus whatever he’s making now.

 

[MilEME09]

Or better. If my googling is correct he was RMC class of 98, meaning he probably starting accruing pensionable service in 1994. Meaning he’s probably pulling $70k a year unreduced pension plus whatever he’s making now.

So someone broke the rules and allowed his Release to avoid a 5F so he could keep his pension? My eyes of suspicion go straight to his boss at this point, and I would go and correct this.