Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[Happy Guy]

I am a guy (with two adult daughters and a son) so this my perspective. The women who report sexual harassment are the ones who felt aggrieved, threaten, humiliated or were harmed during the incident. Most men would stop immediately if the women said No, made gestures or showed body language suggesting discomfort. For many women it would take a rather overly aggressive person who wouldn't take No for an answer before they would report it. Many of us men will not have to worry about the innocent flirt. As for the patting the bum, my wife could have 30 years worth of charges against me .

We (males) must realize that it takes a tremendous amount of courage to report sexual harassment and the women who are reporting it risk being ostracized by their peers and recrimination from their superiors. Think of situation (it doesn't have to be sexual harassment) where you were placed in a circumstance where you felt you had no recourse because of the over whelming power that the aggressor had over you. The person could have verbally or physically intimidated you and that person had direct control over your career and future in the organization. It takes courage to step forward.

What we should be concerned about is fair treatment for the complainant and the respondent and a fair, open a transparent investigative and dispute resolution proces. Unfortuantely, from what I can see, the respondents are not getting any fair treatment by the government.

 

[cyber_lass]

I am a guy (with two adult daughters and a son) so this my perspective. The women who report sexual harassment are the ones who felt aggrieved, threaten, humiliated or were harmed during the incident. Most men would stop immediately if the women said No, made gestures or showed body language suggesting discomfort. For many women it would take a rather overly aggressive person who wouldn't take No for an answer before they would report it. Many of us men will not have to worry about the innocent flirt. As for the patting the bum, my wife could have 30 years worth of charges against me .

We (males) must realize that it takes a tremendous amount of courage to report sexual harassment and the women who are reporting it risk being ostracized by their peers and recrimination from their superiors. Think of situation (it doesn't have to be sexual harassment) where you were placed in a circumstance where you felt you had no recourse because of the over whelming power that the aggressor had over you. The person could have verbally or physically intimidated you and that person had direct control over your career and future in the organization. It takes courage to step forward.

What we should be concerned about is fair treatment for the complainant and the respondent and a fair, open a transparent investigative and dispute resolution proces. Unfortuantely, from what I can see, the respondents are not getting any fair treatment by the government.

As a women... this is quite well said. Thank you.

 

[Furniture]

I am a guy (with two adult daughters and a son) so this my perspective. The women who report sexual harassment are the ones who felt aggrieved, threaten, humiliated or were harmed during the incident. Most men would stop immediately if the women said No, made gestures or showed body language suggesting discomfort. For many women it would take a rather overly aggressive person who wouldn't take No for an answer before they would report it. Many of us men will not have to worry about the innocent flirt. As for the patting the bum, my wife could have 30 years worth of charges against me .

We (males) must realize that it takes a tremendous amount of courage to report sexual harassment and the women who are reporting it risk being ostracized by their peers and recrimination from their superiors. Think of situation (it doesn't have to be sexual harassment) where you were placed in a circumstance where you felt you had no recourse because of the over whelming power that the aggressor had over you. The person could have verbally or physically intimidated you and that person had direct control over your career and future in the organization. It takes courage to step forward.

What we should be concerned about is fair treatment for the complainant and the respondent and a fair, open a transparent investigative and dispute resolution proces. Unfortuantely, from what I can see, the respondents are not getting any fair treatment by the government.

While I agree with what you said, I think there is a danger in framing this as an exclusively a "male" problem.

I was harassed by a female staff member while on course, and the perception that men can't be harassed definitely lead to me not saying anything at the time. In the end I was fine, and the staff member moved on to other things, but I think it's important to remember that women can also be offenders.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Valid point, at the end of the day I think the CAF needs to create, or better yet created for them guide lines for these situations. If not charged, there needs to be a decision made about the member within a reasonable amount of time

They are already created; they need to be strengthened (perhaps) and used appropriately; I'm not talking just charging people where appropriate - I am a supporter of using the appropriate administrative sanctions ( think Ch 14 of the Mil Admin Law Manual stuff) including release. We have an AR process, we have written Defence Ethics, we have DAODs on conduct/performance deficiencies, the list goes on. We have the tools we need, for the most part.

Right now, the big hurtle isn't our disciplinary/admin tools and procedures; it is the public perception of them because of the PR disaster we're weathering as an institution that is mainly resting at the feet of our most senior leadership.

Where to start in re-educating the entire CAF, regardless of component, ranks or DEU??

IMO, here is the foundations (links below); we NEED to get back to the very basics. We need to get everyone to understand these. NEED. No personal interpretations. No "I'm a leader and I'll enforce these rules/regs, but not these ones because...well that is what I feel like".

These ones, word for effin' word.

QR&O: Volume I - Chapter 4 Duties and Responsibilities of Officers - Canada.ca

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Chapter 4 - Duties and Responsibilities of Officers

www.canada.ca

QR&O: Volume I - Chapter 5 Duties and Responsibilities of Non-Commissioned Members - Canada.ca

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Chapter 5 - Duties and Responsibilities of Non-Commissioned Members

www.canada.ca

Self-discipline is lacking, obedience is lacking....CAF-wide. We need to change that; the roof will continue to sag and crack until the foundation is fixed.

 

[YZT580]

how much is current and how much is deep in the past? A number of these allegations go back decades and occurred within the junior ranks. If it were lieutenants and corporals being charged the papers would be moving on to another issue and it would be possible to implement a solution but as long as it involves generals and admirals you will never get the chance.

 

[ueo]

how much is current and how much is deep in the past? A number of these allegations go back decades and occurred within the junior ranks. If it were lieutenants and corporals being charged the papers would be moving on to another issue and it would be possible to implement a solution but as long as it involves generals and admirals you will never get the chance.

The media (through which the public) have the attention span of a gnat. If its "sexy" it sells for a limited time. IMHO this shyte storm will pass as bigger stories are found. That being said the system must be over hauled and become more people oriented- an old Sgt told me long ago "Take care of your people and they'll take care of you."

 

[brihard]

Half the upcoming courts martial are for sexual assault. We aren’t just talking an historical issue here.

Upcoming courts martial - Canada.ca

List of upcoming courts martial by date and/or by province.

www.canada.ca

 

[Ostrozac]

That and the whole ”this will all blow over“ COA was already attempted in 2015, when Operation Honour was launched. 6 years later, and this is still eating up time, energy, resources and people. That’s longer than either world war; it’s longer than the period it took us to ramp up our first real standing military during the early Cold War.

This isn't just about sexual misconduct. Not anymore. It’s also about our ability to obey government direction, implement institutional changes, and retain credibility with those that fund us — taxpayers and the politicians they elect.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That and the whole ”this will all blow over“ COA was already attempted in 2015, when Operation Honour was launched. 6 years later, and this is still eating up time, energy, resources and people. That’s longer than either world war; it’s longer than the period it took us to ramp up our first real standing military during the early Cold War.

This isn't just about sexual misconduct. Not anymore. It’s also about our ability to obey government direction, implement institutional changes, and retain credibility with those that fund us — taxpayers and the politicians they elect.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That and the whole ”this will all blow over“ COA was already attempted in 2015, when Operation Honour was launched. 6 years later, and this is still eating up time, energy, resources and people. That’s longer than either world war; it’s longer than the period it took us to ramp up our first real standing military during the early Cold War.

This isn't just about sexual misconduct. Not anymore. It’s also about our ability to obey government direction, implement institutional changes, and retain credibility with those that fund us — taxpayers and the politicians they elect.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Half the upcoming courts martial are for sexual assault. We aren’t just talking an historical issue here.

Upcoming courts martial - Canada.ca

List of upcoming courts martial by date and/or by province.

www.canada.ca

Lots of privates and corporals in that list with sexual assault charges against them. Contravenes the "it's the dinosaurs" mantra.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That and the whole ”this will all blow over“ COA was already attempted in 2015, when Operation Honour was launched. 6 years later, and this is still eating up time, energy, resources and people. That’s longer than either world war; it’s longer than the period it took us to ramp up our first real standing military during the early Cold War.

This isn't just about sexual misconduct. Not anymore. It’s also about our ability to obey government direction, implement institutional changes, and retain credibility with those that fund us — taxpayers and the politicians they elect.

Yup, launched by Vance. Lead by example.

 

[OldSolduer]

Lots of privates and corporals in that list with sexual assault charges against them. Contravenes the "it's the dinosaurs" mantra.

It doesn’t fit the narrative does it?

A few guilty ones need to be publicly “nailed to the cross “ - like executing an admiral now snd then to encourage the others to behave.

 

[dimsum]

Lots of privates and corporals in that list with sexual assault charges against them. Contravenes the "it's the dinosaurs" mantra.

The "confidently incorrect" folks generally say that mantra.

The rest of us know that it's a problem not limited to the older folks, but that is what is being highlighted because they're of senior rank. Joe Public doesn't care as much when it's Pte Bloggins vs MGen Bloggins, even if Pte B's charge is from the past year and MGen B's charge was in the 80s.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Lots of privates and corporals in that list with sexual assault charges against them. Contravenes the "it's the dinosaurs" mantra.

I think the issue is some of these GO/FOs were seen to be chastising the unwashed masses below them in rank for our behavior.

Now it seems the curtain is getting pulled back and the by golly the emperor(s) have no clothes! (pun intended)

This is an issue with Canadian society, trying to try it one demographic is short sighted and probably just for social tribal arguments.

 

[OldSolduer]

There’s memes going on about how men and boys should act not how women and girls should dress or act.
Man the fuck up troops. If you outrank the ones you’re hitting on you maybe in violation of the ethics we all should have.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There’s memes going on about how men and boys should act not how women and girls should dress or act.
Man the fuck up troops. If you outrank the ones you’re hitting on you maybe in violation of the ethics we all should have.

But what pronouns should we use, please, RSM?

Charla Huber: Asking for pronouns can cause anxiety​

You may have noticed on email signatures, name tags and Twitter handles people are adding their pronouns. Even on many Zoom calls people add their pronouns next to their displayed name.

Common pronouns used are “she/her,” “he/him” or “they/them.” The act of sharing and asking pronouns is something that has been implemented as a respectful way to share one’s own pronouns and to open the door for others to share theirs. This is something that has been gaining traction and many people are welcoming it. People can share their identity with others to ensure they are not misgendered.

The concept is when everyone shares their pronouns, someone who is transgender or non-binary can share their pronouns casually with everyone else.

When it comes to gender, there have been huge strides in making space for people to be more welcoming and inclusive. The act of embracing pronouns is one demonstration of that.

I’ve heard of other situations where folks with androgenous names such as Sam, Alex or Robin appreciate having pronouns added on email signatures to mitigate being misgendered as well.

I agree that providing opportunities for people to share their pronouns is something that is important and should have happened a long time ago. Many people welcome the opportunity, but rarely do I ever hear the other side of this equation.

I am a firm believer that it is OK for people to share their pronouns, but I do not think it is always appropriate to openly ask for people’s pronouns.

If I am ever unsure, I use “they/them” pronouns for someone, or simply use the individual’s name without pronouns, to err on the side of caution.

When we are asking someone their pronouns, even if done out of an act of inclusiveness and respect, we could be forcing someone to “out themselves” when they may not be ready. If someone is going through a period of questioning their identity, it can cause extra unneeded stress. The individual is then faced with lying and feeling awful, or feeling forced to disclose and feeling awful. If someone is not ready to publicly state their preferred pronouns, it puts them in an awkward place.

Due to this, when I am in a group setting, I often do not share my pronouns. I want to make sure that if there is anyone else in the room who isn’t comfortable sharing pronouns, that they are not the only person.

If a workplace creates an overarching policy stating that everyone must display their pronouns, it could cause emotional turmoil to someone unintentionally.

If you want to introduce yourself with your pronouns, it can be great way to open the door to someone else to share theirs. If they do not use that opportunity to share their pronouns, don’t force them.

In these types of situations, each one of us needs to identify our own privileges. If you identify as the gender you were assigned at birth and have never questioned it, saying your pronouns are “she/her” or “he/him” may be simple, but it isn’t for everyone.

Charla Huber: Asking for pronouns can cause anxiety

You may have noticed on email signatures, name tags and Twitter handles people are adding their pronouns. Even on many Zoom calls people add their pronouns next to their displayed name. Common pronouns used are “she/her,” “he/him” or “they/them.

www.timescolonist.com

 

[trigger324]

Lots of privates and corporals in that list with sexual assault charges against them. Contravenes the "it's the dinosaurs" mantra.

Wonder where all the WO and above are? I’m sure those ranks are as proportional as the rest and every GOFO has a chief. Not to mention they can be as dinosaurish as them

 

[brihard]

Mercedes Stephenson is reporting she has a direct eyewitness to the alleged Adm McDonald sexual assault, and that said witness did report to CFNIS.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449856224183287808

 

[MilEME09]

Mercedes Stephenson is reporting she has a direct eyewitness to the alleged Adm McDonald sexual assault, and that said witness did report to CFNIS.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449856224183287808

Well this does not bode well, this may be why the government hadn't made a decision about him yet.