Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

[McG]

So, in other words . . . couldn't find enough evidence to prove what is reasonably suspected to be true.

McDonald sexual misconduct allegation was not deemed ‘unfounded,’ military confirms - National | Globalnews.ca

In response to questions from Global News, the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal offered what appears to be the most direct rebuttal yet of McDonald's claims that he is exonerated.

globalnews.ca

More reason for a military professional disciplinary system that is public (like summary trials & courts martial) and is decided on balance of probabilities (like remedial measures). If we want the public to trust us as a profession and if we want to send a real message of what is acceptable behaviour to our members, then we need a system that gets the job done and does not allow someone to claim "exoneration" from something that evidence suggests they probably did.

While the CAF did create the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre to allow victims to report sexual misconduct and/or sexual harassment incidents, this centre was not outside the chain of command.

SMRC is outside the military CoC, reporting to the DM, not the CDS.

It does the victim support & statistical tracking, but it is not really a reporting mechanism. It does not receive complaints and then cause anything to be done about them. So I would still regard it as falling short of the Deschamps recommendation.

 

[Jarnhamar]

At least Trudeau/LPC did the right thing and didn't give him his job back.

 

[Ostrozac]

They may be demanding better but our board of governors (caninet) ain't on the highest moral ground either. Frankly it will be upto us to push change, IF the A/CDS went to the minister with a giant list of ways to change the NDA to prevent these situations in the future, it would probably get done with credit to the politicians if it worked.

No, it probably wouldn’t. There hasn’t even been an amendment implemented yet for naval ranks, QR&O still lists Leading Seaman, etc… and not the illegal ‘pirate’ ranks based on the term Sailor. And that’s just an Order in Council — it doesn’t even require an act of parliament. We can’t depend on a rewrite of the NDA — it may take years, we may not like what we get, and once it’s in the NDA it’s going to be locked in, maybe for decades. We have to work in the space that we have.

 

[Good2Golf]

SMRC is outside the military CoC, reporting to the DM, not the CDS.

It needs to be right fully independent of DND/CAF. (Any) DM isn’t separate enough.

 

[trigger324]

… and not the illegal ‘pirate’ ranks based on the term Sailor.

Illegal? How so?

 

[trigger324]

So I was having a conversation with a few old buddies and this subject reared its head, regarding Vance. The gist got around to his decorations. Particularly, his Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Meritorious Service Cross and his CD. The question was, given his position as the top soldier, if found guilty, should these decorations be forfeit and removed from him? I'm unaware of the process and requirements, but I would say yes to at least the first two.

Totally agree, but I wouldn’t hold my breath, especially for that CD. I know a remarkable number of guys with “detected crime” and they still sport it

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Maybe we just need to get better at culling the herd ealier ron so, you know, the psychos don't wind up run the ship?

#peterprinciplefail

Illegal? How so?

The table in the QR&O has not been amended. Legally, the old naval ranks (OS, AB, LS, MS) are correct.

 

[trigger324]

The table in the QR&O has not been amended. Legally, the old naval ranks (OS, AB, LS, MS) are correct.

I see. Well I’m sure they’ll get to it. They’ve got a few more pressing issues to deal with at the moment

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I see. Well I’m sure they’ll get to it. They’ve got a few more pressing issues to deal with at the moment

If you say so.

 

[Blackadder1916]

So I was having a conversation with a few old buddies and this subject reared its head, regarding Vance. The gist got around to his decorations. Particularly, his Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Meritorious Service Cross and his CD. The question was, given his position as the top soldier, if found guilty, should these decorations be forfeit and removed from him? I'm unaware of the process and requirements, but I would say yes to at least the first two.

There is a QR&O dealing with forfeit of decorations and medals

QR&O: Volume I - Chapter 18 Honours - Canada.ca

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Chapter 18 - Honours

www.canada.ca

18.27 - FORFEITURE AND RESTORATION OF DECORATIONS AND MEDALS OTHER THAN THOSE AWARDED FOR GALLANTRY AND WAR MEDALS

(1) An officer or non-commissioned member shall forfeit any decoration or medal awarded to the member or to which the member may be entitled for long service, good conduct, efficiency to meritorious service other than gallantry, where the members is:

a. sentenced to life imprisonment; (5 June 2008)
b. sentenced to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service;
c. sentenced to dismissal from Her Majesty's service; or
d. released for misconduct;

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member may be ordered by the Minister to forfeit any decoration or medal awarded to the member or to which the member may be entitled for long service, good conduct, efficiency or meritorious service other than gallantry, where the member is:

a. convicted by a civil authority of any serious offence; or
b. convicted of an offence of treason, sedition, mutiny, cowardice, desertion or a disgraceful offence against morality;

(3) Any decoration or medal forfeited may be restored at the discretion of the Minister.

(M) (9 May 2008 effective 5 June 2008)

However, a strict interpretation of the QR&O may prove it difficult to use as a mechanism to remove Vance's medals since he is no longer a member of the CAF (unless he transferred to and remains in the Supp Res). As for his membership in the Order of Military Merit, there is a separate route to terminate that.

Constitution

INTERPRETATION 1. The definitions in this section apply in this Constitution. “Commander” means a Commander of the Order. (commandeur)

www.gg.ca

TERMINATION OF MEMBERSHIP
25. (1) A person’s membership in the Order ceases when

(a) the person dies;

(b) the Governor General accepts the person's resignation from the Order, which resignation shall have been made in writing and given to the Secretary General; or

(c) the Governor General makes an ordinance terminating the person’s appointment to the Order.

(2) An ordinance terminating an appointment to the Order shall take effect on the day on which it is sealed with the Seal of the Order.

 

[brihard]

The Meritorious Service Decoration Regulations contain a mechanism for revoking an MSM or MSC on the advice of the CDS.

 

[Weinie]

The Meritorious Service Decoration Regulations contain a mechanism for revoking an MSM or MSC on the advice of the CDS.

LMFAO

 

[OldSolduer]

The Meritorious Service Decoration Regulations contain a mechanism for revoking an MSM or MSC on the advice of the CDS.

However what is not stated and I'm kinda guessing here but a lot of underlings (BGens and up) may owe their career to a disgraced CDS. IF a current CDS advised whoever (the GoC) to strip that disgraced CDS of his MSM how long do you think it would be before accusations of some sort would surface?

Just a thought - professional jealousy can ruin careers.

 

[brihard]

Just so it’s clear, I wasn’t taking a position on this. I’m just quoting a relevant bit of regulation, that’s all. Personally, I would think it advisable to shy away from going after going ours and awards in all but the most egregious cases, or where there is some deceit regarding the honours and awards themselves. At the end of the day if someone still did A Good Thing a bunch of years ago, that isn’t erased by malfeasance later on down the road. Now, something that recognizes a career in its totality (order of military merit), sure, that merits a different sort of scrutiny than something recognizing a specific deed or act.

 

[Jarnhamar]

how long do you think it would be before accusations of some sort would surface?

There's probably quite a few senior members who know better than to piss off people like Vance and MacDonald

At the end of the day if someone still did A Good Thing a bunch of years ago, that isn’t erased by malfeasance later on down the road.

Completely agree with you about taking someone's bling away when they've did something deserving.

Just a few observations:
1. The CAF hardly seems interested in going after these people for assaults, probably not going to be much interest in taking medals away for misbehavior; and
2. We've all seen nominations that could pass for being ripped out of Beaverton. Some people get awards because it's almost an SOP for certain positions, or certain ranks. I don't think the CAF is going to want attention on the H&A system.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Convicted by a civil authority of any serious offence.

I believe Vance has been charged with Obstruction. That's pretty serious..........if convicted.

Does anyone know if the judge is a trudeau appointee?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Just so it’s clear, I wasn’t taking a position on this. I’m just quoting a relevant bit of regulation, that’s all. Personally, I would think it advisable to shy away from going after going ours and awards in all but the most egregious cases, or where there is some deceit regarding the honours and awards themselves. At the end of the day if someone still did A Good Thing a bunch of years ago, that isn’t erased by malfeasance later on down the road. Now, something that recognizes a career in its totality (order of military merit), sure, that merits a different sort of scrutiny than something recognizing a specific deed or act.

I don't think anyone was pointing at you Bri. What I found humorous was that it could be removed by the CDS. Like that would ever happen😆

 

[brihard]

I don't think anyone was pointing at you Bri. What I found humorous was that it could be removed by the CDS. Like that would ever happen😆

Oh, for sure- I understood it the same way. Just figured I’d add the clarity.

I share the exact same sense of “not bloody likely”.

 

[Weinie]

I don't think anyone was pointing at you Bri. What I found humorous was that it could be removed by the CDS. Like that would ever happen😆

And that was my point exactly Bri. The irony of the CDS removing decorations from the X-removed CDS, who was the arbiter; the irony is delicious.

 

[OldSolduer]

Convicted by a civil authority of any serious offence.

I believe Vance has been charged with Obstruction. That's pretty serious..........if convicted.

Does anyone know if the judge is a trudeau appointee?

Obstruction of Justice could be a relatively minor thing as well. Bri should be able to set us straight.