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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Eye In The Sky

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It's not just about the money...- jurisdiction is mentioned. Cases from years/decades ago...

If the police forces are understaffed/overworked now...how does dumping more files/cases on them help solve the problem the CAF is supposed to be trying to solve?

It can't be the CAF is just looking for a way to say "there...not our issue anymore"....right?
 

brihard

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Has anyone seen data on how many MP criminal investigations there are for sexual offences in a given year? Set aside all the files that aren’t investigated criminally, because that’s purely internal- just how many cases are civilian police being asked to eat a year? Just the fact that police are saying “it would strain our resources” is concerning strictly from a standpoint of how many such offences are reported within CAF…
 

KevinB

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It's not just about the money...- jurisdiction is mentioned. Cases from years/decades ago...

If the police forces are understaffed/overworked now...how does dumping more files/cases on them help solve the problem the CAF is supposed to be trying to solve?

It can't be the CAF is just looking for a way to say "there...not our issue anymore"....right?
It is also removing any issue about Command Interference by placing it in the hands of CivPol.
A lot of issues dealing with Senior to General and Flag Officers have been and have appeared to been tampered with.
Sending it to Civilian Police removes the ability of General Bloggings to have any real or envisioned power to correct that.
Imagine General Bloggins trying to phone Detective Alvin Awww at CPS trying to influence something -- all he/she/they are getting from that phone call is a criminal case on them.

Has anyone seen data on how many MP criminal investigations there are for sexual offences in a given year? Set aside all the files that aren’t investigated criminally, because that’s purely internal- just how many cases are civilian police being asked to eat a year? Just the fact that police are saying “it would strain our resources” is concerning strictly from a standpoint of how many such offences are reported within CAF…
It is an average of 174 per year reported for the last 22 years according to Wikipedia

As well according to CBC 571 reported over the past 5 years
Military recorded more than 500 sexual assault reports during ...https://www.cbc.ca › news › politics › canadian-forces-s...


Coast to Coast in 5 years an average of 114.2 reported Sexual Assaults
Civilian Police are really reaching if they think that is a strain.
*Now admittedly some less populated areas with a significantly high population of CAF members might skew that in some areas, but considering the amount of sexual assaults reported in Canada -- the CAF inclusion is a drop in a 55 gallon oil drum.

If my Police Chief or Sheriff was to complain about a sub 1% increase in case load for a population they are already resourced from, I'd shake my head....
 

lenaitch

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Interesting that they went with the money route. Every CAF member pays provincial taxes and any CAF homeowner pays municipal taxes. CAF facilities pay GILT (Grant In Lieu of Taxes, or whatever it's called now) to local governments. They've been getting a free ride from having the MPs cover all on-base/CAF member investigations for decades.
Yes and no. Speaking only from an Ontario OPP perspective (I don't know the details how the RCMP do costings or how municipal service structure their funding requests to council).

First, if you can find a municipal council that feels their GILT payments are adequate or even close to what a comparable commercial tax rate would provide, you win the prize. The OPP municipal cost recovery model applies to municipalities under contract (the other non-contract method is basically a fee-for-service with no agreement on number of members, hours of patrol, etc.). It is rather complex and I don't fully understand it, but it involves a base 'provincial' component plus a 'calls for service' component and is divided by what is called 'property counts'; obviously primarily households and commercial properties appearing on the municipal rolls; i.e. its taxpayers. Using you example for, say Borden, if the CAF homeowner lives in nearby Barrie or any other surrounding municipality, their municipal tax dollars don't support the municipality that Borden is within. Neither does it account for a 'property count' that has several thousand people within it. Neither is it set up for providing only one type of service (in this case, criminal sexual assault investigations).

Most municipal police services have the advantage of a singular tax base and singular investigative service. Deployed services, on the other hand, are like recreating multiple police services at the actual service delivery end - only highly specialized services are centrally or regionally maintained. Without knowing actual numbers, it is impossible to predict the actual potential impact but, regardless of the numbers, the investigative impact will be felt locally, and municipalities may well be reluctant to subsidize it or have the service to their citizens degraded because of it.
 

KevinB

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Using you example for, say Borden, if the CAF homeowner lives in nearby Barrie or any other surrounding municipality, their municipal tax dollars don't support the municipality that Borden is within. Neither does it account for a 'property count' that has several thousand people within it. Neither is it set up for providing only one type of service (in this case, criminal sexual assault investigations).
They are still supporting a tax base somewhere.
If the CAF members didn't have to pay provincial and federal taxes - then one could make that argument.

Now folks living in Government Owned housing (PMQ's, ESQ's, SQ's) they generally are not paying municipal housing taxes, so that is something, while folks living off base are. Maybe there needs to be some sort of transfer payment from DND to municipalities based on the # of Government Housing positions, but again, the #'s are lower than the Canadian general population, so it shouldn't be a significant burden, and the only draw would be for Sexual Assault Investigations, not all services in the area.
 

Eye In The Sky

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It is also removing any issue about Command Interference by placing it in the hands of CivPol.
A lot of issues dealing with Senior to General and Flag Officers have been and have appeared to been tampered with.
Sending it to Civilian Police removes the ability of General Bloggings to have any real or envisioned power to correct that.
Imagine General Bloggins trying to phone Detective Alvin Awww at CPS trying to influence something -- all he/she/they are getting from that phone call is a criminal case on them.

100% valid. I don't disagree that these investigations need to be 101% removed from the CofC...

I thought CFNIS was supposed to be just that. Should we be looking at the purpose and future of that org?
 

KevinB

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100% valid. I don't disagree that these investigations need to be 101% removed from the CofC...

I thought CFNIS was supposed to be just that. Should we be looking at the purpose and future of that org?
NIS still has a roll for Drugs, and other Significant Incidents.
A lot of the Command Influence exerted by some former GOFO was on NIS, they shouldn't be part of the Sexual Assault Investigation chain IMHO.
 

Booter

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It is also removing any issue about Command Interference by placing it in the hands of CivPol.
A lot of issues dealing with Senior to General and Flag Officers have been and have appeared to been tampered with.
Sending it to Civilian Police removes the ability of General Bloggings to have any real or envisioned power to correct that.
Imagine General Bloggins trying to phone Detective Alvin Awww at CPS trying to influence something -- all he/she/they are getting from that phone call is a criminal case on them.


It is an average of 174 per year reported for the last 22 years according to Wikipedia

As well according to CBC 571 reported over the past 5 years
Military recorded more than 500 sexual assault reports during ...https://www.cbc.ca › news › politics › canadian-forces-s...


Coast to Coast in 5 years an average of 114.2 reported Sexual Assaults
Civilian Police are really reaching if they think that is a strain.
*Now admittedly some less populated areas with a significantly high population of CAF members might skew that in some areas, but considering the amount of sexual assaults reported in Canada -- the CAF inclusion is a drop in a 55 gallon oil drum.

If my Police Chief or Sheriff was to complain about a sub 1% increase in case load for a population they are already resourced from, I'd shake my head....
The main concern I would have, would be- the military is at this weird place where they are scanning all their sexual misconduct against being sexual assault.

So while across the country they have 174 sexual assault investigation- the atmosphere towards all sexual misconduct may be making a situation where all misconduct is filtered against sexual assault. The amount of misconduct would be much higher and so if the chain wants to divert all potential criminality that’s a problem. I have seen similar before- and if I’ve seen it so have these other municipalities.

And jurisdiction: if the car and its officers are paid by the tax payers over yonder- why would they accept that car to be heading to the base for the day:

A few years ago, and this isn’t the case anymore so i don’t mind saying it, there was a block of time where in Regina there were two police officers on for the whole city. THE WHOLE CITY!

Say hypothetically, there was a military base there and a sexual assault…who would the Regina folks accept that they lose all their cops for that period?

It may seem like fly shit from
Pepper but some forces are razor thin and that increase does change their books 🤷‍♀️
 

Haggis

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Again- when the government talks they keep using sexual misconduct and sexual assault interchangeably. I would be telling them to frig off too until I knew exactly what thing they were asking.
The DAOD 9005-1 definition of sexual misconduct includes offences under CCC 162 (voyeurism), 162.1 (publication of an intimate image without consent) and 271 (sexual assault).
 

Booter

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The DAOD 9005-1 definition of sexual misconduct includes offences under CCC 162 (voyeurism), 162.1 (publication of an intimate image without consent) and 271 (sexual assault).
That’s part of the issue- how do they determine which to send downtown and which stay up town? And if it’s MPs making that call…because they can identify the difference (and I’m pretty sure they can)…what is the real issue? Is it CoC interference? Is that like a real thing- to the extent where it needs these types of changes? And if so are we pursuing the right change?

They are unsuccessful prosecuting them. I’d actually like to see the stats of civi convictions vs MPs. I don’t find historically that it’s a very successful charge in general.

And no- not because I’m the investigator lol
 

Booter

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Yes and no. Speaking only from an Ontario OPP perspective (I don't know the details how the RCMP do costings or how municipal service structure their funding requests to council).

First, if you can find a municipal council that feels their GILT payments are adequate or even close to what a comparable commercial tax rate would provide, you win the prize. The OPP municipal cost recovery model applies to municipalities under contract (the other non-contract method is basically a fee-for-service with no agreement on number of members, hours of patrol, etc.). It is rather complex and I don't fully understand it, but it involves a base 'provincial' component plus a 'calls for service' component and is divided by what is called 'property counts'; obviously primarily households and commercial properties appearing on the municipal rolls; i.e. its taxpayers. Using you example for, say Borden, if the CAF homeowner lives in nearby Barrie or any other surrounding municipality, their municipal tax dollars don't support the municipality that Borden is within. Neither does it account for a 'property count' that has several thousand people within it. Neither is it set up for providing only one type of service (in this case, criminal sexual assault investigations).

Most municipal police services have the advantage of a singular tax base and singular investigative service. Deployed services, on the other hand, are like recreating multiple police services at the actual service delivery end - only highly specialized services are centrally or regionally maintained. Without knowing actual numbers, it is impossible to predict the actual potential impact but, regardless of the numbers, the investigative impact will be felt locally, and municipalities may well be reluctant to subsidize it or have the service to their citizens degraded because of it.
Very similar.
 

lenaitch

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They are still supporting a tax base somewhere.
If the CAF members didn't have to pay provincial and federal taxes - then one could make that argument.

Now folks living in Government Owned housing (PMQ's, ESQ's, SQ's) they generally are not paying municipal housing taxes, so that is something, while folks living off base are. Maybe there needs to be some sort of transfer payment from DND to municipalities based on the # of Government Housing positions, but again, the #'s are lower than the Canadian general population, so it shouldn't be a significant burden, and the only draw would be for Sexual Assault Investigations, not all services in the area.
"Somewhere" isn't really helpful when frontline costs are borne by the local municipality. I have no clue how in-lieu payments are calculated or what they are intended to cover.

If the number's aren't significant - at the local service delivery level - the cost and redirection of resources might go un-noticed. Otherwise, a deployed provincially-funded service, like they do for bikers and other pan-municipal issues, might be needed. The numbers being quoted only get divided by a limited number of locations.
 

Booter

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You guys would better understand that- but I can say when managing multiple policing agreements, rural/municipal/ neighbouring municipality- it always made operational sense to integrate, but for community governments it’s easy to have your data separate- to the minute and unit,

How long how many cars in what area, the community governments have, in my experience been more concerned with how often the car they pay for is in the area that pays it- than my explanation how pooled resourcing leads to operational flexibility,

“Yeah but we pay for x cars”
 

Booter

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Payment In Lieu of Taxes.
This is fascinating and I’ve never seen it before.


It would appear on the surface to change lots of the dynamic, it would be that communities aren’t used to providing the service but are required to- at first blush anyways. Specifically the section that speaks to access to services, I’d have to see how that is defined,

I wonder if that’s is spelled out in each municipalities agreement,
 

Booter

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NIS still has a roll for Drugs, and other Significant Incidents.
A lot of the Command Influence exerted by some former GOFO was on NIS, they shouldn't be part of the Sexual Assault Investigation chain IMHO.
The few sexual assaults on military bases, with all military parties, I had- all involved CFNIS. What that means as a standard practice I have no idea. Just an anecdote. Which is apparently all I have on offer
 
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