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Special forces looks at recruiting off the street amid shifting demands

blacktriangle

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Jarnhamar said:
Happened to me a few times.

-Hey sorry we found your application at the back of the OCs desk. Too late to do anything about it now, maybe you can try next year.
-Sorry your application was approved and you had a spot on selection but someone dropped the ball and forgot to contact you to tell you.
-we'll send you on this course out of area  but don't worry we contacted them and they're aware of your selection stuff and you'll be given time off for the pt test. (no one contacted the course staff and they shut it down when I asked after arriving)

And
-bpso had a nervous breakdown and dropped half her work load you won't be able to apply this year


Lots of guys I know have similar stories, lots of them worse.
CoC gives guys a hard time, tries to guilt them or coerse them not to apply, threaten to ostrasize them or threaten not to give them any courses. CoC looses paperwork (with no repercussions). Drags their feet on applications and people miss key timings.

Seems like many units care more about their own manning than benefitting the CAF as a whole.

The vandoos on the other hand, I've heard, take soldiers who apply for SOF and put them in their own training platoons to concentrate on preparing themselves for selection. Maybe it's to increase the amount of French soldiers in the SOF community? Seems to work.

SOF might have better recruiting levels of the regular force and reserve stopped being dick heads about selection. Attracting more members to the CAF would benefit everyone, too.

All classic! And all so believable sadly. Check your PM for a morning laugh Jarn
 

RedcapCrusader

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mariomike said:
That may be. Perhaps they were using the internal Relative Ability Process? ( Selection on the basis of qualifications, experience, education or equivalency and the ability to perform the work satisfactorily. When these factors are relatively equal, seniority shall govern. )

That's how I got my position on Paramedic Spec. Ops.. It would have taken me many years otherwise, as I was still low on the seniority list. 

But, that was a long time ago, and due to arbitration, the Relative Ability Process is extremely rare now.

I'm only familiar with Metro Toronto. I've been retired for ten years, and a lot has changed since then.

But, the police, fire and paramedic departments are still unionized. The Collective Agreements have never given CAF members special consideration to be fast-tracked into Special Operations.

That would include the Police / Paramedic Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) aka Tactical.

Likewise, having served in the Navy wouldn't fast track an applicant into the Police / Paramedic Marine Unit.

I was in Special Operations in the Emergency Support Unit ( ESU ). That's the bus and truck division. Being an MSE Op didn't get me special consideration or a "fast-track" into it.

The only way was ( and still is, as far as I know ) by the "Senior Qualified Process."

ie: The City assesses applicants ( already serving on the police, fire and paramedic departments ) in order of seniority, until enough candidates have been identified to fill the posted position(s).

There would be grievances from members with more seniority if current/past member of the military received special consideration.

Modified - mm

Brihard said:
I think I know who you mean, but I don’t know the story. No, I’m thinking about another instance. It’s rare, but it happens.

Former Comd CANSOFCOM, LGen Rouleau, was an Assaulter Team Leader. He left the CAF and went straight into the Ottawa Police Service Emergency Response Team.

Exceptions can be made.
 

brihard

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LunchMeat said:
Former Comd CANSOFCOM, LGen Rouleau, was an Assaulter Team Leader. He left the CAF and went straight into the Ottawa Police Service Emergency Response Team.

Exceptions can be made.

Oh cool, I didn’t realize Rouleau had briefly gone OPS.
 

mariomike

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LunchMeat said:
He left the CAF and went straight into the Ottawa Police Service Emergency Response Team.

Exceptions can be made.

I am sure they can.

Do you have a source for that?
 

Old Sweat

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I know MR went into the OPS, but thought he started on patrol duties. A small number of members went into the OPS around that time. At least one is still serving as a sergeant.
 

mariomike

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Old Sweat said:
I know MR went into the OPS, but thought he started on patrol duties.

That sounds more likely.

Although as LunchMeat said, "Exceptions can be made."

 

Kat Stevens

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What's the washout rate at BMQ? DP1 or whatever it is? Basic para? What percentage of off the street COD commandos would actually make a competent SF operator, 50? 40? 25? By filling SF from existing troops, they've already gone through a weeding process by being found competent in their current MOC.
                                       
 

blacktriangle

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I hate to say it, but the allowances alone make SOF far more attractive than service in a regular unit. Why would someone want to earn 35k as a Pte to sit around and sweep when they could get paid well, have proper gear, and do real training/ops? Unless the CAF just wants people with no other options, they need to compete to attract and retain potential high performers.
 

dapaterson

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It is extremely disingenuous to suggest CAF members are not well paid, based on training, education and experience (particularly since the majority of that training, education and experience is obtained while paid).
 

blacktriangle

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I guess I'm just extremely disingenuous then.  :nod:

I'm sorry. The first couple years as a Pte aren't great financially for possibly having to give your life. However, I will suggest that the other issues (equipment/trg or lack thereof, sitting around etc) are critical as well. They will make sure that less 20 year old Ptes stick around to become 25 or 30 year old operators.
 

daftandbarmy

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Target Up said:
What's the washout rate at BMQ? DP1 or whatever it is? Basic para? What percentage of off the street COD commandos would actually make a competent SF operator, 50? 40? 25? By filling SF from existing troops, they've already gone through a weeding process by being found competent in their current MOC.
                                     

Failure rates for SOF are in the range of 80% plus, I believe, for troops who are already trained and experienced. I have no idea what that would mean for civilians who are fed directly into the meat grinder, but I don't think I'd want to be one of them :)
 

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Brihard said:
Oh cool, I didn’t realize Rouleau had briefly gone OPS.

I understand he also did some beat time, before ESU.  Dude rocks!
 

JesseWZ

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standingdown said:
I guess I'm just extremely disingenuous then.  :nod:

I'm sorry. The first couple years as a Pte aren't great financially for possibly having to give your life. However, I will suggest that the other issues (equipment/trg or lack thereof, sitting around etc) are critical as well. They will make sure that less 20 year old Ptes stick around to become 25 or 30 year old operators.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Perhaps in garrison, they pay is not swell - but how many 18 year olds with no education are even making 40K a year with the option of what ends up being heavily discounted living arrangements, contribution towards a decent pension and full benefits.

In situations where said private is in a position of having to give his/her life - there is foreign service pay, hardship and risk allowance, all of which turn decent 18 year old pay into great pay for an 18 year old.
 

dapaterson

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JesseWZ said:
I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Perhaps in garrison, they pay is not swell - but how many 18 year olds with no education are even making 40K a year with the option of what ends up being heavily discounted living arrangements, contribution towards a decent pension and full benefits.

In situations where said private is in a position of having to give his/her life - there is foreign service pay, hardship and risk allowance, all of which turn decent 18 year old pay into great pay for an 18 year old.

And, in those periods of extreme risk on deployed named operations, the pay is tax free.
 

blacktriangle

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Thanks guys, I'm aware of how it works. Thank you for also ignoring my valid points about morale, training, and equipment and going for the low hanging fruit.
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=JesseWZ]

In situations where said private is in a position of having to give his/her life - there is foreign service pay, hardship and risk allowance,
[/quote]

And the private who is in a position overseas who isn't in danger, isn't risking their life, isn't even carrying a gun, whose hardship might be the icecream machine breaking down or XBox being busy gets the same pay as said private risking his life. 

Which I suppose is neither here nor there, but curious never the less.
 

b00161400

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I would suggest that one of the most challenging of factors to direct entry will be maturity.  SOF is looking for folks who are not only very fit and capable in acquiring technical skills but also mature enough to operate in small teams with little oversight.  I suspect that a recruiting campaign direct from the civi populace will bring in a lot of folks who are also 'infantry private' folks.  A large group of which will lack the requisite maturity.
 

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standingdown said:
Thanks guys, I'm aware of how it works. Thank you for also ignoring my valid points about morale, training, and equipment and going for the low hanging fruit.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm not trying to disrespect you mate. You posted something that was contentious (and possibly erroneous to some), people (including myself) replied with our own assessment of a part of what you posted. That's the end. It's not low hanging fruit - it's simply fruit.

There is no rule that says people have to reply to your entire post and address each rationale you brought up.

I agree with most of the rest of what you posted, but some of that post will be coloured by the part I disagreed with.
 

blacktriangle

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Haligonian said:
I would suggest that one of the most challenging of factors to direct entry will be maturity.  SOF is looking for folks who are not only very fit and capable in acquiring technical skills but also mature enough to operate in small teams with little oversight.  I suspect that a recruiting campaign direct from the civi populace will bring in a lot of folks who are also 'infantry private' folks.  A large group of which will lack the requisite maturity.

Let them try. If they wash out, let them do Infantry DP1. Maybe stream some of the keen ones to light BNs and let them get the experience and training to help down the line. Keep them engaged and maybe the maturity will follow in time. We don't exactly have Ranger BNs, you know? If they fail that, see if there is anything else we can use them for. If not, kick them out. If what my US colleague told me is true, people that wash out from BUD/S end up as another rating or ride out their enlistment "undesignated" i.e. sweeping and mopping.

We already recruit people that are in their 40s and out of shape, and then spend tons of money and admin time to watch them fail out of far less arduous trg. I mean no disrespect to anyone. We all come from different trades, ranks, and individual experiences. Anyways, I've said my bit. Have a great weekend folks.
 
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