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Syria Superthread [merged]

The Bread Guy

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And now, Canada's reaction ...
The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, issued the following statement today on U.S. strikes in Syria:

“Canada fully supports the United States’ limited and focused action to degrade the Assad regime’s ability to launch chemical weapons attacks against innocent civilians, including many children. President Assad’s use of chemical weapons and the crimes the Syrian regime has committed against its own people cannot be ignored. These gruesome attacks cannot be permitted to continue with impunity.

“This week’s attack in southern Idlib and the suffering of Syrians is a war crime and is unacceptable. Canada condemns all uses of chemical weapons.

“Canada will continue to support diplomatic efforts to resolve the crisis in Syria.”
 

tomahawk6

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Russian warships are moving toward the area USN destroyers had launched their missiles from. One of the US destroyers went to port to rearm. What does Putin do next ?
 

armyvern

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Jarnhamar said:
Because chemical weapons are so much worse than regular bombs.

Yes indeed they are.  Especially so when those chemical weapons are directed at non-legitimate targets.

Chemical weapons are quite unlike the 55+ tomahawks that rained down upon a legimately targeted air base.
 

dimsum

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ArmyVern said:
Yes indeed they are.  Especially so when those chemical weapons are directed at non-legitimate targets.

Chemical weapons are quite unlike the 55+ tomahawks that rained down upon a legimately targeted air base.

There is a specific convention (the Chemical Weapons Convention) that specifically prohibits production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. 

Tomahawks are GPS-guided to an amazingly accurate degree.
 

OldSolduer

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Jarnhamar said:
Because chemical weapons are so much worse than regular bombs.

They are far more dangerous. My grandfather was gassed in WWI and the effects lasted his entire life.

Assad ....whoever uses chemical weapons deserves a trial followed by an execution.
 

Jarnhamar

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I just find it somewhat hypocritical to get righteous over the use of chemical weapons when civilians been smashed over there with all kinds of other weapons.  I'm all for shooting  bad guys for being assholes but suggesting the US attacked in moral retaliation for chemical attacks against civilians is like crapping in my hand and telling me it's ice cream.
 

MilEME09

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Dimsum said:
There is a specific convention (the Chemical Weapons Convention) that specifically prohibits production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. 

Tomahawks are GPS-guided to an amazingly accurate degree.

The drone footage released by the russians is a testament to the accuracy of the Tomahawks, looks like the missiles blew right through the hanger doors and destroyed everything inside.
 

armyvern

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Dimsum said:
There is a specific convention (the Chemical Weapons Convention) that specifically prohibits production, stockpiling and use of chemical weapons. 
...

Uhmmm, yes I am aware of that.
 

Rifleman62

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Extract from link:
However, the London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that Syrian warplanes were able to take off from the base and carry out airstrikes in the countryside near Homs.

Good video also at link.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/07/syria-missile-attack-satellite-photos-show-major-damage-to-airfields.html

Syria missile attack: Satellite photos show major damage to airfields




 

Retired AF Guy

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MilEME09 said:
The drone footage released by the russians is a testament to the accuracy of the Tomahawks, looks like the missiles blew right through the hanger doors and destroyed everything inside.

Apparently, all missiles hit the airfield within a 10 minute window.

Mind you, the Russians are saying only "23" missiles hit the airfield. No word on what happened to the other 36.
 

blacktriangle

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Well I woke up today, and the world was still here. No calls on my phone, clearly we aren't at war with Russia.

So...well done President Trump. I can't say I always agree with him, but at least he did something.
 

Kirkhill

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Time for more maps I think.

What is, politically

middle_east_map.gif

http://www.worldatlas.com/img/areamap/continent/middle_east_map.gif

What is, ethnically

mapMEethnic.jpg

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/mapMEethnic.jpg

What is, by religion

2015-12-09-1449688798-9640350-Mid_East_Religion.png

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2015-12-09-1449688798-9640350-Mid_East_Religion.png

What is, linguistically

Mid_East_Linguistic_lg.png

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Mid_East_Linguistic_lg.png

What is, culturally (historically)

cultural-zones.jpg

https://thesinosaudiblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/cultural-zones.

List of local empires - Sumer, Akkad, Ur, Babylon, Assyria 1, Mitanni, Hittite, Elam, Assyria 2, Phillistines, Israel, Assyria 3, Media, Babylon 2, Persia, Macedonia, Rome, Parthia, Sassanid, Byzantium, Umayyad, Abbasids, Ghazna, Seljuks, Christians, Ayyubids, Mongols, Mamelukes, Ottomans.  Which covers the last 5500 years and brings us to 1922.

I give you three other maps

That with which the EU struggles - the Holy Roman Empire

p500ME_Eng_g1.jpg

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/p500ME_Eng_g1.jpg

And France

sf081fra.jpg

http://www.pitt.edu/~medart/image/france/france-l-to-z/mapsfrance/sf081fra.jpg

That with which Canada struggle - BC land claims

boundaryclaims.gif

http://www.trax.bc.ca/images/boundaryclaims.gif

Me, my personal preference, embrace the chaos and enjoy the wild.  You will wear yourselves out trying to impose order.  But a bit of pruning here and there, maintaining a lawn now and then, setting the occasional backfire and you can keep the forest from overwhelming you.
 

Kirkhill

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Could a variant of this be the basis for developing US thinking?

A protracted, below the radar effort relying heavily on local players and minimal US boots. 

Lessons from Yesterday's Operations Short of War: Nicaragua and the Small Wars Manual
Marine Corps Gazette Nov 1996 Volume 80, Issue 11
Author:
Richard J Macak Jr
Category:
Operations

Those who forget the past. . . . As the Defense Department struggles to keep pace with a changing world, this author suggests it may be time to look back at one of our previous experiences with low-intensity conflicts.

As the U.S. Armed Forces develop and refine their doctrine for the use of military resources in low-intensity conflicts and military operations other than war, they should carefully assess the "small wars"1 experiences of Marine forces through the first three decades of this century. These earlier campaigns are important, not only for their doctrinal contributions, but also because of their resemblance to conflict today:

Wherein military force is combined with diplomatic pressure in the internal or external affairs of another state whose government is unstable, inadequate, or unsatisfactory for the preservation of life and of such interests as are determined by the foreign policy of our Nation.2

Probably the most significant small war experience in Marine Corps history was the lengthy conflict in Nicaragua. Fortunately, we still have extensive published and unpublished firsthand accounts of that campaign. More fortunately, we have a complete manual of doctrinal statement and application-the Small Wars Manual-derived from that experience. Although the manual has remained unchanged since its second publication in 1940, it will nonetheless prove invaluable to U.S. planners. Let's look at the situation of the time, the Marine involvement, and the resulting publications.

During its 20-year military involvement in Nicaragua, which ended on 1 January 1933, the Marine Corps achieved State Department foreign policy objectives by stabilizing a country with a long history of political unrest and civil war. To do so, the Marines engaged in diverse and important missions promoting the internal stability of the Nicaraguan Government. For instance, they established neutral zones to protect American lives and property; they physically separated and disarmed warring political parties, thus ending the 1926-27 civil war; they successfully protected the election process ensuring free and impartial presidential elections in 1928 and 1932; and they organized and trained a nonpartisan national guard, known as the Guardia Nacional de Nicaragua, into an effective fighting force.3 Just before withdrawal, the Marines completed a 6-year counterinsurgency campaign against Augusto C. Sandino that was important for its intellectual contribution to counterinsurgency doctrine.

The involvement's contributions to counterinsurgency doctrine are the result of the cumulative efforts of many Marine officers who served in the lengthy campaign. Through their thoughtful articles in the Marine Corps Gazette and Naval Institute Proceedings, they provided a sizable reservoir of personal experience in counterinsurgency operations. As an institution, the Marine Corps focused these experiences at its Schools Command in Quantico, VA. Other Marine authors expanded the knowledge on counterinsurgency warfare by publishing the Small Wars Manual detailing the lessons learned from conflicts such as the Nicaraguan campaign.4

Before examining the military involvement in detail, let's review the historical highlights of U.S. regional interests and Nicaraguan political alignments. By the 1920s, U.S. economic, political, and military interests had grown considerably in Central America, particularly in Nicaragua. For example, the American business community, searching for overseas markets, expanded into the region. Companies, such as the highly successful United Fruit Company, established branches throughout Central America, and these became lucrative investments for U.S. businessmen.

Also, the U.S. Government naturally considered the area vital to its national security, particularly because of the Panama Canal and its retention of construction rights to a future canal through Nicaragua. Likewise, the United States was concerned that Mexico, as a result of its recent revolution, would begin spreading its form of bolshevism or communism southward into the Central American countries.5...

https://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/1996/11/lessons-yesterdays-operations-short-war-nicaragua-and-small-wars-manual

Basically sending a bullet instead of a body in support of anybody willing to support US interests.
 

tomahawk6

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ISIS seems to have launched an offensive in the AO of the air base. With Russian and Iranian help this effort will be futile I expect.
 

a_majoor

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There is an amazing PSYOPS aspect with the press seems to have overlooked.

President Trump had the strike done as soon as practical after the chemical weapons strike, and while having talks with the President of China. He has essentially told China, Russia and their proxies DPRK and Syria (and indirectly Iran) that there are behaviours which will not be tolerated. It will be interesting to see how these nations react or change their behaviours as a result.

Juxtaposing this with the images of the woman and children killed and injured in the attack also presents the image of the United States as the protectors of the weak and avengers of the innocent, which is a pretty powerful card to have in your hand (especially when compared to the behaviours of other nations...)

A lot of people will be looking at this and seeing America differently now.
 

The Bread Guy

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Thucydides said:
... Juxtaposing this with the images of the woman and children killed and injured in the attack also presents the image of the United States as the protectors of the weak and avengers of the innocent, which is a pretty powerful card to have in your hand (especially when compared to the behaviours of other nations...)
The big problem with that narrative, though, is it becomes stronger when you don't have an executive order in place keeping said weak and innocent from a specific country from coming to your country to get away from the bad guys.

Thucydides said:
A lot of people will be looking at this and seeing America differently now.
In some ways, yes, but we'll see ...
 

Jarnhamar

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Isn't the Syrian government  opposed to (and fighting) ISIS?

Why would the US oppose a government that's fighting against ISIS?
 

GR66

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Jarnhamar said:
Isn't the Syrian government  opposed to (and fighting) ISIS?

Why would the US oppose a government that's fighting against ISIS?

Didn't the USSR fight the Nazis?  Does that make Stalin a "good guy"?
 
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