Tactical Helicopter Observer Qualification Badge

[Dirty Patricia]

I'm trying to find some official regulations or instructions regarding this, but I'm not having much luck.  I 'm pretty sure I'm on track, but I'd like to be sure. 

It's one of those cases that generally angers most members of any military I'd reckon - that insecure poser that figures he'll sew badges on his uniform he isn't entitled to. 

Here's the story......

The alleged poser, a reservist, heads on an SFOR tour to Bosnia as a mission specialist.  He comes back to his unit sporting the Tactical Helicopter Observer wings on his uniform saying they were given to him after his training as a mission specialist.

Am I correct in my understanding that first, there is currently no qualification or specialist insignia for mission specialists.  Next, that with the retirement of the Kiowa, there is no longer a Tactical Helicopter Observer Course and thus the specialist badge is no longer awarded.

I'm giving the member the benefit of the doubt until I find some written direction on the subject.

 

[geo]

Been seeing men in green with mission specialty badges - door gunners.

 

[Cleared Hot]

I've got some emails out to contacts in that community but as far as I know there is still no msn spec badge.  Here is a link that while admittedly is not from an official site is pretty comprehensive.

http://va3kgb.ve3kbr.com/forces/air_trade_badges.htm

As for the THOC, no they do not run it anymore but there are a number of experienced guys around still wearing them.  I will be seriously pi**ed if they start handing out those wings to door gunners.  Should they get something sure why not, everyone else in the AF does  : but with a 60% failure rate that was one of the tougher courses we ran.  The jobs are completely different and you can not do what they do from the back of a Griffon, you need to be in the front seat.  Oh and if you are engaging (or even just watching your arcs) with a c-6 you are not fulfilling your Air OP duties.  A few years ago I did some work with 403 Sqn ATF trying to revisit Air Op Stuff, you can do it but it's ugly especially sitting in the back w/o basic instruments like a compass.  At least in the Kiowa you could follow you map - and can you imagine trying to get a pilot to let you tell him when to pop up (pointing in the right direction) for the report of Shot/Splash?  :camo:  In any case, there are a lot of "wings" out there are you sure they were THO?  BTW I am not a real Air Observer - I just spent a bit of time in a former life helping someone else try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[aesop081]

everyone else in the AF does  :

Who in the AF wears wings that you feel shouldn't ?

 

[Cleared Hot]

Off the top of my head a few would be...

CE Tech, CE Eng, Cook, Int Op, Int O, MP, MSE Op, Musician, Log O, PSEL O, PAFF O, T&D O.

 

[aesop081]

CE Tech, CE Eng, Cook, Int Op, Int O, MP, MSE Op, Musician, Log O, PSEL O, PAFF O, T&D O.

Them's just trade badges....not wings.

 

[Cleared Hot]

I know that's why at the end I put wings in "".  Just meant don't make the attached army guys feel left out.

 

[Loachman]

The alleged poser, a reservist

Any prior regular force Combat Arms Service, including as an Observer prior to 1995?

heads on an SFOR tour to Bosnia as a mission specialist.

I wasn't even aware that we employed any reservists as Mission Specialists, ever, at all.

But then, in the early days, there was no real qualification or course run and people were given the title. We ran a trial course in 400 Squadron a few years ago, which may or may not have been repeated elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure that it was the only official one ever.

He comes back to his unit sporting the Tactical Helicopter Observer wings on his uniform

The stubby wings with the red, yellow, and blue beachball in the middle, right? Was he "sporting" them before he went, as a result of having passed the Observer course run exclusively by 403 Squadron prior to the Kiowa's tragic retirement in 1996? Has he ever flown in a Kiowa? Does he even know what a Kiowa is? Does he know what colour the boathouse is at 403 Squadron?

The alleged poser, a reservist
saying they were given to him after his training as a mission specialist.

Mission Specialists don't get wings. There are still some Observers kicking around, but I doubt that you'd find one below MWO rank - they were intelligent and talented guys and did well when posted back to their regiments. Unless somebody established a secret OTU in Bosnia, conducted Observer selections, and followed that up with a three-month course run by former Observer Instructors, nobody got an Observer qualification in Bosnia. Somebody may have given him a set as a souvenir, but they are hard to find so I doubt it.

The alleged poser, a reservist
Am I correct in my understanding that first, there is currently no qualification or specialist insignia for mission specialists.

Yes.

Next, that with the retirement of the Kiowa, there is no longer a Tactical Helicopter Observer Course and thus the specialist badge is no longer awarded.

Correct. The last one would have been awarded over fifteen years ago, to a Combat Arms NCO with the minimum rank of Sergeant.

I'm giving the member the benefit of the doubt until I find some written direction on the subject.

There are far more appropriate things that you can give him.

Demand to see proof of successful completion of the Observer course or even a Mission Specialist course. He won't be able to.

Then out him to his CO.

 

[aesop081]

Ask to see his log book.

 

[ModlrMike]

Have a look at the MPRR or course report, then cross reference your findings with the dress instructions. In most cases, lack of evidence in the personnel documents should be sufficient.

 

[Cleared Hot]

Had my first reply from a buddy who recently returned from a tour with 408 as a msn spec.  He said that while they never had a spec badge they were trying for one and there were a number of design prototypes put forward with the front-runner being modelled after (and looked a lot like) the THO badge.  Does anyone know if a mission spec badge was recently approved?  I don't think so but...

 

[ModlrMike]

I don't think so either, but you could check the DHH website for the latest changes to the dress instruction. If there is a new badge, you should find it there. You can also scan the CANFORGENs.

 

[Cleared Hot]

Okay, it's official, as Loachman said, still no Msn Spec badge being issued.  In fact, there isn't even an approved Msn Spec Course, units just run their own local training getting new guys up to speed and no, they don't hand out "wings" after.  That being said, you can get anything you want made on the boardwalk... some of it looks pretty official too.

 

[Dirty Patricia]

Any prior regular force Combat Arms Service, including as an Observer prior to 1995?

Not a day of service as a reg force soldier.

I wasn't even aware that we employed any reservists as Mission Specialists, ever, at all.

There were some and he did to it - I'll give him that much.

The stubby wings with the red, yellow, and blue beachball in the middle, right? Was he "sporting" them before he went, as a result of having passed the Observer course run exclusively by 403 Squadron prior to the Kiowa's tragic retirement in 1996?

Those are the ones he wears (picture below) and he didn't have them on his uniform until he returned from Bosnia.  He says outright that he was awarded them after being qualified as a Msn Spec.

Then out him to his CO.

How did you know he was gay too?!

 

[Cleared Hot]

There is no reason to be wearing THAT badge unless you completed the THO Course.  I don't care if he did deploy as a msn spec to Bosnia or anywhere else for that matter. :clubinhand:

 

[Etienne]

Altought I did not participate in this discussion (lack of knowledge on this matter), after everything that was said, it reminded me of a saying in french from a certain someone    "À gang on sait toutes" which translate in "With all of us, we know everything".

Bring him down from is ivory tower ! :threat:

I hate posers !!

Etienne

 

[Loachman]

He is most definitely a poser and deserves everything that you can have done to him.

 

[MedCorps]

If it is any help.  The qualification on the MPRR you are looking for is "Tactical Helicopter Observation" with a qual code of "AGPL". 

More information on this qual can be found in A-PD-055-003/PQ-001 (last approved in 2003).

The course notes as a pre-req:

- Qualified 6A with 1 year of experience as a Sgt in a field unit.
- Specialty MOC experience in Armd Recce, FOO Tech, mortar Fire Controller, Recce Pl, or Engr Recce Det. 

If you look at A-PO-011-020/PC-001 (the course doc, which is a little dated, but so is the qual) it indicated that the course is 65 trg days. 


I hope that is of some help.

MC

 

[Loachman]

the course doc, which is a little dated, but so is the qual

Yup - the course hasn't been run for 1.5 decades.

it indicated that the course is 65 trg days.

Was 65 trg days.

Unless this guy also has his Time Traveller Wings...

 

[armoured recce man]

I'm currently employ as a mission spec at 430, and it is true that there is no mission spec wings altough authorisation were given to wear the general aircrew wings ( same one as the steward and such..)The current mission spec wings are actually the general aircrew wings with the cross sword under them. Everything regarding  mission specialist is awaiting approval....and it as been that way for the last 10 years... and by the way request were made for door gunners to wear those wing upon completion of their course but that was turn down, but my gunners came up with wings of their own and they've been authorise to wear in theatre


cheers