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The Legality of Self Defence In Canada

ballz

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Container said:
If he comes at you and you pop him in the lip and it causes him to stop his vicious drunk guy assault you'll probably be fine. If he drops dead though you'll be in crap- which can happen and does. You never know when these guys are going to die.

This depends on circumstance of course, but the way you have described it here you are incorrect. If he "comes at you" leaving you no choice but to pop him in the lip, if he dies, he dies. That's it that's all in a perfect world. Unfortunately, you might get charged with manslaughter anyway in the real world, but you wouldn't get convicted. Unfortunately, the charge alone makes you a victim.

As you said in a different post (paraphrasing) "if you can get away then you're expected to," but if he just "comes at you" while you're working the door of a club, there's really nowhere to run without endangering yourself.
 

Container

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I can assure you he would be charged and go through a lengthy trial. I can guarantee it and have seen it several times over. Much like you said.

I didnt say you'd be convicted but the ordeal of the trial and the year of being on conditions and other consequences of being charged with manslaughter count in my eyes as being in crap (like you said). That is what I meant Im sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

He also wouldnt be the first guy convicted of manslaughter in this case when the court determined that the little drunk guy posed no real threat. It is certainly not a position to be shrugged off.
 

ballz

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Container said:
I can assure you he would be charged and go through a lengthy trial. I can guarantee it and have seen it several times over. Much like you said.

I didnt say you'd be convicted but the ordeal of the trial and the year of being on conditions and other consequences of being charged with manslaughter count in my eyes as being in crap (like you said). That is what I meant Im sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

He also wouldnt be the first guy convicted of manslaughter in this case when the court determined that the little drunk guy posed no real threat. It is certainly not a position to be shrugged off.

Yes, same page now. The restrictions would be one thing, but the legal costs could screw you for years. It's too bad that, as a society full of sheep, you are likely to get a jury full of sheep as well. People who put the blinders on and think that "little drunk guy's" don't carry knives or HIV, and can't kick you in the nuts or gouge your eyes out.

One thing that really frustrates me is that if you have a really pissed off assailant, perhaps some dude who's girlfriend slept with you and now he's out for blood, in my opinion I'm not safe from harm until he's KO'd or has a broken limb. I mean if I knock him over and let him back up he's just going to continue his attack.

However, if I go down to the ground after him and pulled his shoulder out of place with a nice Americana, making me safe to stand back up and leave, not only would it be deemed "more force than necessary" (wtf are you supposed to do? let him back up so he can continue to attack you? Eventually he's going to get lucky...), but I, being somewhat of a martial artist, would actually be held to a higher standard because I knew damn well that I was popping his shoulder out.

 

Fishbone Jones

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Container said:
I can assure you he would be charged and go through a lengthy trial. I can guarantee it and have seen it several times over. Much like you said.

I didnt say you'd be convicted but the ordeal of the trial and the year of being on conditions and other consequences of being charged with manslaughter count in my eyes as being in crap (like you said). That is what I meant Im sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

He also wouldnt be the first guy convicted of manslaughter in this case when the court determined that the little drunk guy posed no real threat. It is certainly not a position to be shrugged off.

Thank you Container.

Hence the oft spoke advice we give here about taking what you read on the internet (and here), especially if it deals with legalities, with a grain of salt. There are authorities on this stuff and there are those that 'believe' they know the subject. Follow their counsel with caution and at your own risk.

Milnet.ca Staff
 

kstart

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I'm a statistical anomally, because I've survived 2 major stranger assaults, one in my teens, and one as a young adult.  I probably didn't carry myself well in my teens, body language was shy/avoidant, had taken a lot of hits growing up and didn't fight back.  Last bus. . . followed off the bus, ambushed. . . some earlier interactions, and I asserted my boundaries, but he stalked.  Second assault, the perp was in the neighbourhood, turned out to be the same guy who chased my roommate through the park-- he followed me from work, across the park (5 minute walk, 6:00pm winter, so it just got dark).  Survived other threats to my safety, verbal with intent and the means. . . safety figures into my thinking, hopefully to never get caught off guard.

A new trick I spontaneously invented recently (there's a potential threat. . .what are my ways out, what to do if I get trapped. . .what's the safest route to safety, who else is around, what's lit up the best. . .), is use of my Water Bottle that I carry with me everywhere I'm walking, because I need to constantly re-hydrate.  It's an approximately one litre, steel water-bottle and the cap has a solid thick loop which fits secure around my index finger, and I always make sure the cap is screwed on tightly (so there's no water-leakage).  It gives extra reach to an extended arm (by almost foot) which can protect my perimetre.  When filled full with water, can add to momentum and force. . .

I didn't have to use it, but stayed alert and it just makes me feel better when I have planning, a what I can do if I percieve threat, to feel reasonably prepared to respond if I have to.

I also know from my experiences that I can actually trust my intuition.  In the cases of both attacks, my intuition picked up on the threat, long before close enough proximity to attack me.  My mistake was doubting it.  The second attack, I noticed hesitation with the guy as he was about to cross the street, then withdrew. . . he was waiting to see what I did (in retrospect I realize that), at the time, my spidey senses, inner voice told me "that guy is fkd up, watch yourself".  I crossed the street to the path across the school yard, judged by the time of 6pm, still people on the path, judged it to be 'safe enough'.  I noticed my inner voice (calm, not a schizy one ;) ), but judging, "oh good, there's people around".  Still not enough to assume direct threat.

Mistake was that it only took seconds and perp looks for that interval of opportunity.  But I was already geared up, adrenaline, anticipating it.  I heard breathing behind me (yeah, creepy like a movie, surreal), he tried to put his hand across my mouth from behind, but I jumped on that before he got a locked hold, ripped and twisted his arm, and I yelled loudly, "F-OFF!"-- full adrenaline response.  Freaked him out, because he wasn't expecting that.  I think these perps build a fantasy up of how it's going to be untill they get a good shot of reality.  It stunned him, then he sort of slinked off away to the side-- super creepy.  Bad decision to walk the rest of the way home, cause intuitive voice warned me he could follow me home, and I just thought well, I'm half way through the park, half way back. . . long story of crap, but I think it's good to know how one's intuition operates, even if that sounds flakey.  Others have other senses, that can pick up on threat, how it's communicated to self, e.g. some people, can feel goosebumps, hair standing on end.  There can be innate self-protection senses.

I've toughened up a fair bit, but on days I don't feel as strong, sometimes I need to wear my steel-toed safety boots.  I worry about what I project, sometimes I can't find the 'warrior'-within, 'inner-protector' and it's hard for me to go out there (still got ptsd interference, long story. . . ).

I've been aware that it's not lawful to carry weapons, and I've really struggled with that, often opting to avoid going out (and that's constrictive to my living). . . I have this souvenir mini-wooden baseball bat, that I've wanted to take out with me for self-protection, but I also have wired "law-abiding" in me, but I liked the idea, because that can create a perimeter, disable hands coming at me.


But in truth, I'm not able to fight, until I've been struck or grabbed and at that point it can be too late.  It would be unlikely I'd use the water-bottle defense until they struck first, so it's all about precious split-seconds of response.  And believe me, I consider proxemics and safety routes and all other things first-- key is to avoid the problem, keep as much distance from a potential threat. 

I also do have a personal alarm on me, and I can rehearse that using body and mind practice.  The alarm I have fits on belt loop, detach the part that can be thrown into the bushes, whatever, and it gives a piercing sound.  If I want to walk around the neighbour, I'll also borrow my neighbour's dog, because he's very good at being protective-- anyone who attempts to walk up behind me and this dog turns back, barks and gives them crap-- and it is good defense, because it can wake a sicko up out of their sick reality back into reality, to stop, re-think, the dog's stand, "don't even think about it".  Small things like this feel empowering, it's a relief to not be as strained thinking about my safety constantly, that a walk can be relaxing, it's a big relief.  I practice 'mindfulness', so I can be aware of both the pleasant and unpleasant of my surroundings, in-tuned hearing, slightest brustle of a leaf, twig, etc., awareness without panic, until a 'watch it, potential threat"-- and I don't panic, I do seek to take control of the situation, assess risks, routes, etc.

The first assault, yeah tipped off to threat long before it happened and I second guessed my intuition, told myself "i'm just being paranoid", well I wasn't.  I picked up on things, small behaviours, interactions.  Jerk was staring me down on the bus, and my bad habit was to avoid eye contact, and it felt intimidating.  I got off the bus, I slipped on the ice and the perp ran out to "help me up", and then wouldn't let go of my arm and seemed to be trying to lead me to a dark place across the parking lot, so I asserted, "that's okay really, I have to walk this way, thanks" (f-off, w/o saying it).  Intuitive voice, said, "what happens if he tries to meet me on the other side of the mall" and I discounted as 'paranoid', but it's exactly what the perp did.  I should have walked closer to the road, vs. the path.

He ran up behind me and I turned around to face him and he stopped in his tracks.  Again, it was surreal, because he started creeping towards, me and said "don't scream" and I'm like WTF, " what do you want, want my wallet, here [ready to thow it at him]".  This was the first assault, and I think I blanked out for a second or two.  He got me in a hold, and dragged me, and I was kicking, trying to get traction, pulled me behind a garbage dumpster.  He was a foot and more taller than me, couldn't head butt him.  I didn't feel that I had use of my arms and angled in a way that I couldn't kick. . .?  I think the problem was the horrified of the assault directions, my brain couldn't snap into how to fight that lock, I struggled the whole time trying to get out of the grip.  Puffy winter clothing was also difficult fight wise, but clothing barrier made it frustrating for him to try to continue, that and constant struggle. 

My sense of rage persists and the helpless aspects, is the chit of the trauma I wish would be gone.  The rage is good, because my self-protection is usually on, and accessible when needed, when under threat, it's a case of "not this time, f-you"  My thinking is systematic re: safety routes, long before anyone is close enough in proximics to harm me-- so I do feel in control with that, calm, no panic, what are the options, quickest route to safety (other people, well lit places, traffic), etc.; what do I have on hand to protect myself if trapped.

There's different kinds of threats, not just the stalking sexual predators.  There's the jonzing drug addicts, mugging risks.  There's the stupid gang stuff, dares, re: 'jack that person".  They're different dynamics.  I'm fairly confident in handling that stuff.  Gang people, it's group strength dynamics, one on one, they can be weak, and can use that psychology to one's advantage-- shame can work.  Again, they can have stupid pre-concieved ideas of how they think an attack will play out, and when you do something unpredictable, it can disarm their focus.  A kid tried this with me, I was crossing the parking lot, two dudes standing back watching, but they were together earlier, and kid ran up behind me, and I turned back to face them, and it freaked them out (just the change in direction, and retreat, etc. tips me off, irregular behaviours).  Confused lone-crackhead, I watch the actions closely, irregular crossing the street, and I'll test things by changing my direction and see how they respond, and get to well-lit, public space, close to traffic, stop and watch.  I carry some anger, some intensity, and 'bring it' (even if it is slightly delusional, I need that confidence-- and it possibly can be picked up on energetically, subtle level of experiencing).

I think being attentive to proxemics and safety routes.

TTC, I'm not that familiar with.  Have visited briefly, TO.  If there aren't good safety routes out of tunnel and into traffic, more people around, I don't think I'd want to travel that way (but, I'm ptsd-damaged-- despite my strengths, if I'm carrying other stressors, I don't feel as confident and I panic about that, don't want vulnerability to be detected and I don't like it if there aren't good escape routes, don't like to get into any trapped situations).  A purse with long straps and heavy weight inside can also be a self-protective weapon (keep your wallet, valuables separate--I carry a travel change purse, flat, worn under clothing-- the purse is a decoy, discardable). 

If can't afford a car, can't travel in a team, I'd consider moving closer to work.  I feel safer on bicycle, well lit up, don't stop anywhere, keep going.  Personally, I'd rather take my chances in traffic, vs. personal assault to my person (maybe that's insane in terms of probabilities, but somehow I've been a statistical anomaly, a freak magnet, whatever, I don't know why, maybe it's even less so now-- something I can't get my mind to resolve/ptsd-glitches, stuck).  Know the area really well, what's open, escape routes, etc.

Guns I can't see as being sensible to use, even if it were legal, because, underground tunnel ricochet and *You only know for sure you are under attack, when the attacker has closed in on you*-- in which case, it's not safe to pull some weapons out, because they can be apprehended and used against you.  Personally,  I wouldn't want to carry a lethal weapon.  You have only split-seconds to react.  I don't want to kill people, I just want to be able to protect myself, enough so that I can run, get away (and if I can get a satisfying momentary strike in, all the better. . . to run). 

I think my Water Bottle is useful, because of the small grip-ability, if it got out of my hands, it would still be hard to wield effectively by another person/attacker, being round, cylindrical, hard to grip firmly and utilize against me.  Better than a glass bottle, because re: transference of blood less likely, not a sharp object.  Knife, they can get cut, and you can get cut by the same blade-- high risks re: knife-fighting-- high HIV risk, if your attacker is carrying it. . . and if the attacker(s) are also IV-Drug-Users (or even crack-pipe, cuts in mouth, etc.), high risk they can be carrying HIV. Blood on blood contact, highest HIV transmission risks. 

If dealing with a group (vs. lone-attacker), decoy purse with solid concentrated weight in it, straps, maybe can swing it, protection. . . early detection of risk is better, and safety plans ahead of time, and prepared for scenarios.  Some people need to walk with walking sticks, cane for arthritis, earlier sports injuries, etc. in case stiffness develops, even on days when walking very strongly and unencumbered by it, some people need one to keep on hand for those off-days. . . but should learn how to use it properly to prevent injuries. . . . In the winter time, sometimes need added spike for traversing ice. . .

(I'm not a cop btw, nor CF)

Steel toe boots, laces, pointed toe . . ditch the heels.  Inaccessible clothing.  Mini-skirt doesn't mean you are 'asking for it', it just means easier attack (mini-skirts safer if chaperoned, not travelling alone).  Belted slacks, can be a deterrant to prevent escalation of assault (as was in for me in one of the assaults--was bad, could have been a lot worse), something not imagined by or planned for by perpetrator.  Wear clothes you can run in, can move in. . . ?  Some people need to walk with walking sticks, cane for arthritis, earlier sports injuries, etc. in case stiffness develops, even on days when walking very strongly and unencumbered by it, some people need one to keep on hand for those off-days. . . but should learn how to use it properly to prevent injuries. . . . In the winter time, sometimes need added spike for traversing ice. . .  Some martial arts. . .  I play-scrap with one of my roommates, just for fun, joking around, it's pretty good for the reflexes-- I've noticed we've both gotten better with blocks and play-strikes-- problem with some kicks is other person grabbing the foot, and being thrown off balance. . . (Cato, and Clouseau, lol-- interchangeable ;) )

Bike locks, if cycling, the heavy-duty, U-bar ones. . . length, grip, can be apprehended though, but is it outside of the attackers imagination, heuristic of weapons, maybe surprise element. . .?

But what a person carries on them, even if it's not a 'weapon' can be apprehended and used against oneself by an attacker, so that's good to consider. . .?  Unpredictability vs. obvious can be an advantage. . .possibly. . . but better to have others with more experience weigh in on that.

Maybe the self-defense workshops aren't wholly bad, if they're discussing preventative measures, and thinking through scenarios, training re: safety routes, body language-- I think prevention is better than having to fight-- even if sort of being able to win a fight, from my female perspective, it hurts to have been singled out and in that situation.  Whereas prevention, less traumatic impacts to live with, while feeling in much more in control-- empowering that way. I think that alone can help 90% re: handling risks.  Having a TTC safety plan ahead of time is a good thing, knowing where alarms are, etc.  how far to travel to more peopled areas, e.g. if leave the tunnel to the street. . . knowing about that for a given time in the day. . . where staff are at, security. . .etc.  On the train, like buses, can sit close to the driver?  Don't stay in an isolated cabin. . .?  Find other women. . .?

 

ballz

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The Tories have already slightly improved the situation for self defense in Canada and hopefully, according to this article, plan to address the issue more.

Still to come
Measures we can expect to see in the coming weeks:

Long-gun registry ended.

Revival of two anti-terrorism tools – preventive arrests and secret investigative hearings – that expired five years after they passed in the aftermath of 9/11.

A citizen's arrest and self-defence act — to clarify the self-defence and defence of property rules under the Criminal Code.

More power for police to conduct internet surveillance (known as "lawful access") — a controversial step that would compel Web service providers to hand over information even without a search warrant has been feared by internet experts. But the government said Wednesday it has no plans for such measures. "Outrageous claims like that one, that private communications will be intercepted without a warrant, is a complete fabrication," said Public Safety Minister Vic Toews Wednesday, responding to a question from the NDP.

Additional support for victims of crime: a doubling of the existing victim surcharge imposed on criminals by the courts and a change to make it mandatory; and enhanced EI benefits for parents of murdered, gravely ill or missing children.

New measures to keep drugs out of the prison system: new fines, mandatory annual testing for all federal inmates, and the denial of parole for those who fail drug tests.

A "national action plan to combat human trafficking," which may come together with a private member's bill expected this fall from Conservative MP Joy Smith about preventing human trafficking in the sex trade.

Mandatory jail time for repeat offences in trafficking contraband tobacco and a new RCMP anti-contraband force.

An end to sentencing "discounts" for time-served for individuals guilty of multiple child sex offences and child pornography charges.

Potentially tougher sentencing in cases of elder abuse, with amendments to the Criminal Code to add "vulnerability due to age" as a factor in sentencing.

More on youth crime to "help at risk youth avoid gangs and criminal activity" and "address the problem of violence against women and girls," promised in last June's throne speech.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/21/pol-crime-bill-in-out.html
 

kstart

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ballz said:
The Tories have already slightly improved the situation for self defense in Canada and hopefully, according to this article, plan to address the issue more.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/21/pol-crime-bill-in-out.html

The following, from: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=3966

Amendments to the self-defence provisions would repeal the current complex self-defence provisions spread over four sections of the Criminal Code (s.34-37) and create one new self-defence provision. It would permit a person who reasonably believes themselves or others to be at risk of the threat of force, or of acts of force, to commit a reasonable act to protect themselves or others.

Use of Deadly Force

The use of deadly force is only permitted in very exceptional circumstances — for example, where it is necessary to protect a person from death or grievous bodily harm. The courts have clearly stated that deadly force is never considered reasonable in defence of property alone. The legislative reforms currently being proposed do not make any change to the law relating to deadly force. Courts will therefore continue to make any necessary changes on a case-by-case basis, developing the common law if and where appropriate. 

I thought being law-abiding enough by not carrying illegal weapons. 

There really should be accessbile training re: reasonable use of force and self-defense. 

I try to think of things as a continuum of possible self-defense measures.  All travel routes do have some blind spots along the way.  A mugger can get away with more people around, side of the road type of thing; sexual predators though, they look for that isolated patch along a pathway, or the opportunity when others aren't around.  Try to keep aware of surroundings and exits.  Proxemics, distance between self and others around.  Then there are observable behaviours that can tip alert to potential threat.  There can be opportunities to think escape routes and if there's not a good one, sometimes it is a question of what does one have on them to defend themselves, in case of getting trapped, cornered and it's not avoidable. 


Can carry personal alarm handy, if feeling closed in on, can pick up some dirt in lieu of bear/dog spray, to have handy to throw in their face. . . and that's for a case of if lunged at (split seconds).  If someone is walking too close behind me, I step aside, keeping safe distance to allow them to pass.  If I think I'm being followed, because noticing a person's irratic behaviours e.g. crossing the street back and forth, I might change direction and assess potential threat from a place of safety, well lit, near traffic, or from coffee shop.  This isn't an everyday thing for me,  but cities suck.

But a physical grab, the split seconds of grabbed at before locked hold-- is it justifyable use of force to use my steel water bottle to strike with?  Problem with that is if swinging at  a person's head if perchance that arm is still free. . . I thought at the time (and I felt scared) okay that could disable so I could run. . . but what if that could cause more serious harm?  Kind of have to fight with everything you've got anyway-- like I don't think I'd throw away my steel water bottle because I'm anticipating a potential threat.

I can think about this now, at the time, I did feel threatened, and needed that safety plan, a last resort if cornered, no place to run (because person known to me, has threatened me, got their friends to threaten me, reasonable expectation they're weaponsized and possibility of more than one attacker).  It was okay.  Nothing happened.  But enough that I needed to be cautious, I think some steps ahead.  I kind of hate living like this.  Some of the new laws could add better protection at least for others to come.

I will say that I'm also glad for a lot of the new additions in the crime omni-bus bill, the following with details of ammendments in criminal code, this is the first bill, other stuff has been put aside for now:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Bills/411/Government/C-10/C-10_1/C-10_1.PDF

I read through some of that  and I could see that some of the new changes will do a better job at protecting children and youth (both in the home, and exploitation of homeless youth) and I'm glad to see that.  Pot grown by organized crime is not victimless.  Medical use, controlled legalization is another issue (e.g. cancer/chemo; chronic pain, etc.).  There's a couple of other issues, that I'd hope there would be more clearer legal definitions to prevent abuse. 

I shoudl go back and resume the search for accessble self-defense training, because I'm not sure about lawful use fo force.  I've tried, there was an organization called WISE (Women's Initiation for Safer Envrionments), I've checked PD websites, and community news papers.

There's escalation of assault post-first strike/grab.  I've never tried the strike and run, but obviously it's crossed my mind as a defensive tactic.  Can think one method is safe enough, got security, but it's not really how things go, fights are dynamic.  Kicks are risky if you lose your balance and don't known how to get back up fast, because being pinned to the ground is something to avoid.  When it's a grab, and hold is secured, it's a matter of wrestling, it's harder to get a useful strike in. . . And it's being aware of what limbs are not restrained, have to be dynamic.  There's only a split second to do the knee in the groin too, before getting pinned down.  It's not that easy.  If it's a wrestling situation, can't get distance momentum for a good strike. 

Anyway, I'm not sure about legal use of force re: self protection.  I know that I am wired up a bit, and because of that, I'm careful, I think it's a wait (oterh options of escape are exhausted), the split second when physical strike or grab is attempted, then I'm justified to fight with everything I've got to defend myself physically.  I have to believe in my right to defend myself, without doubts, getting in the way, at a certain threashold it's justifyable.

The other way I carry my filled steel water bottle is in a 'tote-bag'-- not padded, straps carry over the shoulder.  The weight in that it's not unlike the pool-ball in the sock trick. . . some use if it's multiple attackers.

If I had the means and the $, I'd live in the country.  I've had no trouble with face-toface-bear encounters, thus far, ones I've encountered wanted to avoid violence as well.
 

Angry56789

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Container said:
As long as the weapon used was present because its usually present for non-weapon reasons and it was required to overcome the person trying to kill the guy in the warehouse, as in he had a reasonable apprehension of death or GBH, than yeah he would be in the clear.

But the mugging wouldnt be enough. He could resist the mugging and then if it escalated and he feared death he could graduate to that level. He could expect to be scrutinized for not just handing over his stuff. As dumb as that sounds.

Im not in the mood to read 126 replies, I am sorry if this is a repeat comment. Where I am from (in Ontario) I was once told by a cop if my g.f (at that time) had oc spray and was in the situation where she deemed it necessary for her own personal safety, or the personal safety of someone else she can legitimately protect, that would be taken into consideration in court. There was a serial rapist in the area I lived in when I was going to college and working midnights.  It is sold as dog spray, and is legal to have to spray a dog. Obviously it is bad form to use it for someone who is giving cat calls across the street. Possibility of rape....well thats different. This particular cop told us without actually "telling us" that he would defend her use of the OC, and also that sometimes "bits of information" go missing **wink wink** If it was my wife and this happened, and she chose to spray the perp and knee thrust nose smash......I would sell one of my kidneys, flip over the biggest rock, and pick the slimiest, greasiest, lowlife defence lawyer I could get. This is something that I think should be updated in the Criminal Code.

On the flip side, if OC is used in the comission of a criminal offence, and it is brought up that it is for self defence in order to evade charges related to the use of the weapon.....they should be hung out to dry. I remember when I was on HLTA in Australia I made friends with a cop (neighbour of my friend) and down there they pretty well treat it as a firearm if its used in the comission of an criminal offence.

*****Apologies for the rant, I have a hard time stopping the momentum when I get going*****
 

Angry56789

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In continuation, ***sorry, momentum has not stopped***

-For concealed carry in Bulgaria, you have to renew annually, to include a blood test and a background check....every year.
-You are allowed to have I think it is 30 rounds in your posession for home use, and must submit a report to the police why it was used and they investigate it hard. Very stiff charges there for illegal use. You must also give I believe it is 3 rounds of your ammunition to the police to hold in file for ballistic testing purposes.
-Gunclubs allow you to buy more ammo to use strictly at the range, some smart people sneak some out for extra. But these ammo purchases are tracked by the government...similar to the ledger filled out when one purchases a firearm in Canada

(Dog handler overseas was Bulgarian, from Sofia)

Imagine if we had those laws in Canada and you had a hot wife that could shoot a golf ball size group oriended at the centre of the head (to sever the mendulla oblingata), or the CVM (obvious)
 

Container

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The last advice you should ever follow is a wink wink nudge nudge from a police officer who says he'd help you break the law.

Im  a reasonable cop and I dont charge folks who are victims. But I dont tell them to break the law and Ill turn a blind eye. Thats disgusting.

If Im asked I say what the law is. When someone is a victim I go after the bad guys- but I dont wink wink nudge nudge with peoples lives and potential freedom.
 

KevinB

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Castle Law and Shall issue CCW...

Just saying  ;)
 

Fishbone Jones

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KevinB said:
Castle Law and Shall issue CCW...

Just saying  ;)

No argument here Kev  8)

BTW, next time you're over by Cocoa and you stop at Kel-Tec, tell them I'm having a ball with my RFB and SU-16 ;D
 

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If someone breaks into my house the first thing I would grab would be a gun. If said person didn't listen to commands and reached towards his pocket, scratched his testicles or made one step in my direction I would shoot him. When it all boils down my family's protection is more important than a future court case or my incarceration. Would I fire shots at a scared crack head running from my house? No. Would I blow his brains out if he took one step towards me? yes. Catch phrase "I felt threatened for my life because....."
 

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dogger1936 said:
If someone breaks into my house the first thing I would grab would be a gun.

Of course with our firearms laws, unless the dude stops into your kitchen to make himself a cup of tea, you would not have time to make use of it. But that is for the Great Gun Control Debate thread.

When it comes to Castle Law, I don't have family/kids, and I feel my house is a pretty safe to be anyway, because I'm not "into stuff" that gets your house broken into or has people paying you a visit at night. But with that said, I would obviously agree that you can't do enough from your own home to protect yourself / loved ones.

But I'm much more concerned about the legalities of self defence outside my house where I am much more likely to encounter a bad person (and if I had family / kids, that's where they would be more likely to run into a bad person as well). The bar, the short-cuts through alleys, the trails while I'm running / ruckmarching, etc. I have major sleep problems and so I am *really* bad for doing PT after 10pm, sometimes 2am-3am on a Friday or Saturday. I am certainly not doing myself justice in the "preventative measures" category, but just because I'm not doesn't mean I should have to worry about getting charged for manslaughter / some form of assault for throwing down against a drugged up bum that decided to interrupt my run and ruin my would-be best time of the season.

Unfortunately, I feel as if I was ever in this situation I would most definitely be charged and have to go through the process... Sure, it's better to be judged by 12, but it ain't f**king cheap...
 

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ballz said:
Of course with our firearms laws, unless the dude stops into your kitchen to make himself a cup of tea, you would not have time to make use of it. But that is for the Great Gun Control Debate thread.

I'm pretty certain my safe and gun rack combining their magical powers to make Mrs shooty (my gun) loaded and ready would only waste a few seconds. Punching in 6 digits on a LCD screen shouldnt take you half the night.

As for beating up bums if you have the ability to get away whats the point? Otherwise you ruin good clothing and what bum can run a 7 minute mile anyway. I feel certain in our society if no excessive force is used I.E dropping a mag into a 2 yr old trying to steal your candy; that the law will do the right thing. And if they don't as long as I can look at myself in the mirror everything will be alright.
 

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dogger1936 said:
As for beating up bums if you have the ability to get away whats the point? Otherwise you ruin good clothing and what bum can run a 7 minute mile anyway.

If I could get away I would obviously, but that's not always an option and that's what I'm talking about. I don't care about the clothing but the extra risk involved in a confrontation is quite high. But I run on a 2 ft wide trail, and I suspect I would probably have to make "getting away" an option before I could take it.

And I can't run a 7 minute mile either, chances are the bum could outsprint me ;D
 

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ballz said:
If I could get away I would. I don't care about the clothing but the extra risk involved in a confrontation is quite high. But I run on a 2 ft wide trail, and I suspect I would probably have to make "getting away" an option before I could take it.

And I can't run a 7 minute mile either, chances are the bum could outsprint me ;D

Pockets full of nickles may work. Throw in any direction and watch bum dissapear. Worse case scenerio...you watch another bum emerge and they shank each other for 70 cents tops. Entertainment and safety for a mere 70 cents.
 

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Hahaha, and the extra weight provides for a better workout. Perhaps you are on to something!
 

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I once gave a gypsie kid a quarter then watched 2 other kids kick his *** for said quarter. In essence I paid 25 cents to watch a 5 year old get beat by two teenagers.

See the army experience DOES roll over to civilian life!
 
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