The need for a manned control tower at Fredericton airport

[Petard]

Last week while flying into Fredericton, the Jazz flight I was on did an abrupt manoeuvre because the planes Traffic Collision Avoidance System sounded an alarm due to the proximity of a trainer somewhere in the circuit.

I found out this week that this actually made the news

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/09/30/nb-near-collision.html

But maybe there's a good point to this being in the news, now that I can read the flight school's response, and Mike Dorion, the CEO of Moncton Flight School that was involved with this, sure seemed blasé in his response and IMO he has no right to be.

The Jazz flight had already swung well North of Fredericton before approaching the zone for that airport, which is unusual for a flight coming from Toronto, and though it is an uncontrolled airport all aircraft coming into that zone (I think its 5 nautical miles) should be telling the flight service specialist there what their intentions are, it is evident the pilot of the trainer was not very clear about what they were going to do, if they broadcast what their intentions were at all; there was plenty of time to clearly do so.

Besides that when the Jazz flight did land, after a go around, on the roll out, it looked like a goat rodeo on the apron in front of the terminal, with at least 3 of the Moncton School's "Eclipse" trainers booting around. Two looked like they were racing each other to the Bravo taxiway, and one was doing a run up right beside the other taxiway the Jazz flight was most likely going to use. As the Jazz flight taxied in on Alpha the three could be seen lined up on Bravo taxiway, the last one blocking the Echo taxiway. All in all maybe not against any regulations, but what looked to me like very poor airmanship.

In any case there will be manned tower phased in starting 17 Dec, and from the looks of things not a minute too soon, hopefully that will include some form of ground control as well.

 

[armyvern]

The requirement for a manned control tower has been in the news down there quite a lot over this summer ...

There was an incident involving a near collison with the flight school back earlier ...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/07/08/airport-tower.html

Staff at Fredericton International Airport are anxiously waiting for a report by Nav Canada that could pave the way for a control tower at the airport.

Moncton Flight College CEO Mike Doiron said it's about time Fredericton had a control tower.

His pilots-in-training use the same air space as commercial jets landing and taking off at Fredericton, which is the busiest airport in Canada to operate without a tower.

In June, Doiron said, five student pilots crossed the flight paths of incoming jets at Fredericton. He said they were not close calls, but still indicated the need for traffic controllers.

"If there had been an air traffic controller, chances are the air traffic controller would probably have set things up to ensure that the airliner was outside the traffic pattern of the smaller training aircraft," Doiron said.

According to numbers complied by the airport, just in the month of May planes travelled across its runways 10,000 times, landing and taking off

That's double the number at the next busiest Canadian airport operating without a control tower, according to airport spokeswoman Melodie Beal.

She said the Nav Canada traffic report may determine if Fredericton gets a tower.

"All we've been told is that the study has been completed. It's being reviewed in Ottawa by Nav Canada, and there could possibly be an announcement later this week on the result of that study," Beal said.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/09/30/nb-near-collision.html

A pilot had to act fast to avoid a collision near the Fredericton airport Wednesday afternoon, according to reports.

An Air Canada Jazz pilot believed that a student plane from the flight college got too close and said he had to take "collision avoidance measures," according to a passenger on the flight, 8956 from Toronto.

The passenger jet was on its way to landing but then accelerated, climbed and banked, before circling and landing safely, the passenger said.

A Fredericton airport official said the pilot purposely missed his approach to increase the distance between the planes.
...

But, it's an item that's been talked about for years due to the circumstances ... yet --- there's still no manned tower ...

From 2007 (Boys should ensure you scroll all the way down this page ...  ;D):

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=36720&start=0

 

[Journeyman]

Oh give me a break. Via Rail's "Trans-Canada Train" won't even stop in Fredericton; you have to go to Moncton, then hitch-hike back to Freds'town.

And you expect a real airport control system??


Edit: I forgot the " " so people don't get angry about living in a 3rd-world country province

(again)

 

[armyvern]

The 3rd world has produced some great people who will not hesitate to kick your ass. 

 

[Journeyman]

Yes dear  :-[


(I assume you mean Canadian Maritimers, and not Nelson Mandela  )

 

[observor 69]

Still can't quite feel that I have a strong grasp of this situation. But my best understanding is the number one aircraft on approach (MFC) decided to do a 360 to expedite the landing of the routine scheduled Air Canada flight ? Just how would that work ?
Reading all the info available I am left with the opinion that the Fredericton "International " Airport needs a manned control tower to provide separation of aircraft particularly with the MFC Fredericton ongoing operation.

 

[hauger]

Meh.

Sure, the airport is probably big enough to require a tower, at least part time during the day, but really it's not that big of a deal.  The Jazz pilot identified the traffic and self de-conflicted. 

I always hold in suspect any comment on pilot actions from a passenger when said passenger is basing judgment by looking out a small port hole window facing sideways and without benefit of being on headset.

This stuff happens at towered airports too...last week I saw a guy on an ILS have to avoid a general aviation bug smasher do a no kidding avoidance due to an RA (Resolution Advisory) which is when TCAS makes a no kidding do this or die recommendation.  The weather again was VMC and the conflicting traffic made his position known.

IFR approaches are only designed to get you under the weather and positioned to land safely.  They are not protected corridors of traffic safe airspace when weather is good.  Again I think the Jazz pilot did exactly what he should have done to increase separation.  If there was a tower, even a VFR only tower, the outcome would have been probably the same....namely one of the two aircraft would have probably performed a 360 or some delaying turns to increase separation.

One thing the school could (and should) do it give the students an idea of what approaches are there at the airport and where aircraft will be coming from when they announce on the radio that they're 10 miles back on the ILS.

 

[vonGarvin]

Oh give me a break. Via Rail's "Trans-Canada Train" won't even stop in Fredericton; you have to go to Moncton, then hitch-hike back to Freds'town.

I'm not even sure that it ever stopped in Fredericton!  Fredericton Junction, some 40 (?) km south was,I think, as close as it came.  That line is still being operated; however, it's for freight only, as part of NB Southern Railway.

 

[TCBF]

I'm not even sure that it ever stopped in Fredericton!  Fredericton Junction, some 40 (?) km south was,I think, as close as it came.  That line is still being operated; however, it's for freight only, as part of NB Southern Railway.

- No reason for Freddyville to get a train. Thunder Bay has twice the population, and they don't get to take the train either.  Nice if all of the money they saved was put into a four-lane autobahn from Halifax to Vancouver.  Never happen.

 

[observor 69]

How about a four lane autobahn of high speed rail across Canada?

Rail guys always said it isn't the car that costs the money it's the road, applied in this case to rail.

 

[observor 69]

I'm not even sure that it ever stopped in Fredericton!  Fredericton Junction, some 40 (?) km south was,I think, as close as it came.  That line is still being operated; however, it's for freight only, as part of NB Southern Railway.

Memories.... Sitting in the Lord Beaverbrook Hotel bar waiting for the bus to take passengers to Fred. Jct. 

 

[TCBF]

How about a four lane autobahn of high speed rail across Canada?

Rail guys always said it isn't the car that costs the money it's the road, applied in this case to rail.

- What drives pax rail out of business isn't the cost of cars or the rails, it's the cost of the people who ride the trains to look after the pax.  Eventually, their wages and benefits make it too expensive to hire more of them, but their collective agreement dictates the ratio of workers to pax.  People in Marathon would try to buy a train ticket to Thunder Bay, only to be told 'No seats available.' The train would go through and there would be lots of seats.  Just not 'enough' workers to service the pax.

- Under these circumstances, mixed cargo and pax trains make a lot of sense.

 

[Petard]

Ok, before someone breaks into Gordon Lightfoot's the railroad trilogy...

Interesting comments by Hauger, but I don't think the airport needs a manned tower because of the volume of traffic, the amount of commercial and general aviation traffic I would say is pretty light.
I think they need it because of the "meh" attitude that seems to be prevalent with the MFC. I wouldn't have known this if it weren't for the news article, including the ones posted by Vern, and yes from the limited knowledge of the airport and my view from my port hole as we taxied in. Since that college doesn't seem to be doing much to deal with this increasing number of conflicts, or seem particularly concerned that a lot of their students do have a language problem, then I guess the only solution is to impose some more positive control in that terminal area for peak times of flight training, at additional cost to operating that airport.
Funny you don't hear much from the other flight college in Fredericton, Capitol Airways.

So then again, maybe all that's needed is Transport Canada to do a review of MFC practices.

 

[mariomike]

- Under these circumstances, mixed cargo and pax trains make a lot of sense.

Yes, it does. Which is probably why they don't do it!
"Trains can also be 'mixed', comprising both passenger accommodation and freight vehicles. Such mixed trains are most likely to occur where services are infrequent, and running separate passenger and freight trains is not cost-effective, though the differing needs of passengers and freight usually means this is avoided where possible."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train

 

[Loachman]

Yes, it does. Which is probably why they don't do it!

It depends upon whether one wants to operate at freight speeds or passenger speeds, and how frequently one wishes to stop for passenger embarkation and disembarkation with thousands of tons of rolling stock and cargo to stop and start each time, and how much one wishes to throw passengers around due to slack action of the couplers and draught gear each time speed changes.

 

[Loachman]

I'm not even sure that it ever stopped in Fredericton!

Not within the lifespan of anybody on this forum, but it once did, right down town.

 

[armyvern]

Not within the lifespan of anybody on this forum, but it once did, right down town.

That location is soon to be a new NBLC location. Planes, trains ... and beers.  8)

 

[mariomike]

Not within the lifespan of anybody on this forum, but it once did, right down town.

Didn't VIA run Budd cars to Frederiction till about 1988?
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/258/budde.jpg

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As Hauger has pointed out- a tower would have done nothing to solve this particular situation (likely).

Frederiction has an irregular shaped block of Class E airspace surrounding the airport.  Class E airspace allows both IFR and VFR traffic to operate.  Moncton Centre will provide separation to the IFR traffic, if they are aware of other traffic.  It is still the IFR traffic's responsibility to broadcast intentions on both the Mandatory Frequency (122.8 in this case, if memory serves) and 126.7 at least 10 mins back.  The FSS may also provide traffic advisories, if they are aware of traffic.  Bottom line- it is up to the pilots involved to deconflict.

If Fredericton had a Control Tower, the airspace would become Class D while the tower is in operation.  Again, both IFR and VFR traffic can operate, but separation is provided to both.  That is still no protection against a dumba$$ move by one party or another- the TCAS and good SA are still your best protection, IMHO. 

Traffic levels dictate which airports in Canada get control towers.  I generally feel safer around an uncontrolled airport than I do around a controlled one, just because traffic is lighter (Red Lake, ON being the exception that proves the rule- I hate going there because of all the float traffic).  Fredericton, at least as far as my experience goes, is just not busy enough to justify a controller standing around a tower most of the day with nothing to do.

 

[observor 69]

"Fredericton, at least as far as my experience goes, is just not busy enough to justify a controller standing around a tower most of the day with nothing to do."

Sarcasm on, "But it's an International airport !" sarcasm off.  >