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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

PuckChaser

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Also keep in mind that technology transfer sounds nice, but its not free. Brazil bought new Gripens with technology transfer for $120M USD each (2014), but that included armaments and services. F-35 is trending down in price and is already below $90M USD each. Not to mention the billions we'd waste building an orphan assembly line for the Gripens that'll just shut down right away as soon as the last jet rolls.
 

dimsum

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PuckChaser said:
Also keep in mind that technology transfer sounds nice, but its not free. Brazil bought new Gripens with technology transfer for $120M USD each (2014), but that included armaments and services. F-35 is trending down in price and is already below $90M USD each. Not to mention the billions we'd waste building an orphan assembly line for the Gripens that'll just shut down right away as soon as the last jet rolls.

It won't shut down on an election year.  Just the year afterwards.  ;)
 

observor 69

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    The high-speed hard sell: why the F-35 is coming to a Canadian air show

The F-35, the warplane Prime Minister Justin Trudeau promised not to buy four years ago, touched down in Ottawa on Wednesday — on the eve of a federal election — as one of the leading contenders in the competition to replace the air force's aging CF-18 jet fighters.

The stealth jet's demonstration team will perform this weekend at an air show in Gatineau, Que., giving many of the capital's movers and shakers their first up-close look at an aircraft that has consumed a lot of oxygen in Canadian politics.

During the last election, the Liberals famously (or infamously) promised not to buy the F-35 and said they would opt instead for a cheaper aircraft, using the savings to refit the navy.
The U.S. Air Force demonstration team that will be taking the F-35 through its paces this weekend fits into that marketing effort with its use of slick cockpit videos — the most recent of which was shot over Niagara Falls, Ont. Wednesday morning, prior to the arrival of a pair of F-35s at the Ottawa International Airport.

"The really cool things about the airplane are not going to be on display out there this weekend," said Capt. Andrew 'Dojo' Olson, the demonstration team leader. "So if they think the demo is cool, they have no idea how cool the other stuff is."

Olson is referring to the stealth jet's top secret features, many of them related to the aircraft's ability to network with other units in the field — both in the air and on the ground — and gather electronic intelligence.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f35-canada-competition-1.5270600
 

MarkOttawa

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Inuvik airfield upgrade announced (new fighter in mind?):
National Defence to contribute funding for upgrades at Inuvik Airport

As outlined in Canada’s defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada is modernizing infrastructure at our bases and wings, as well as exercising Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic.

Today, the Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, announced the Government of Canada will provide the Government of the Northwest Territories with up to $150 million over five years for the extension and modernization of the Inuvik Airport runway. The project will extend the existing runway by 3,000 feet and modernize its lighting, navigational and military aircraft landing systems [emphasis added]. This project has been made possible through collaborative efforts between the Department of National Defence, the Government of the Northwest Territories, and the Inuvik airport.

This investment will allow the Royal Canadian Air Force’s (RCAF) Forward Operating Location to support a greater variety of military aircrafts for RCAF and NORAD operations. This project is expected to create economic opportunities for the region throughout construction...
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2019/09/national-defence-to-contribute-funding-for-upgrades-at-inuvik-airport.html

Mark
Ottawa
 

Czech_pivo

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MarkOttawa said:
Inuvik airfield upgrade announced (new fighter in mind?):
Mark
Ottawa

FYI
- If Inuvik is getting upgraded to 9,000ft, watch to if any of the others below get upgraded as well.

Canada's current fleet of CF-18s are operated out of two airbases, CFB Cold Lake, Alberta and CFB Bagotville, Quebec.  From these two bases, CF-18s are often rotated to CFB Comox (BC), CFB Goose Bay (NL), CFB Gander (NL), and CFB Greenwood (NS).  CF-18s also often find themselves in CFB Trenton (ON).  All of these bases meet the 8,000 foot requirement for the F-35, some of them, just barely.

Here is a list of these bases along with the length of their longest runway, in feet.


CFB Cold Lake:  12,600
CFB Bagotville:  10,000

CFB Comox:  10,000
CFB Goose Bay:  11,051
CFB Gander:  10,200
CFB Greenwood:  8,000 (the minimum)

CFB Trenton:  10,000


Things get hazier when we look at Canada's Forward Operating Locations (FOL) up north.  These FOLs allow the fighters to operate in Canada's northernmost territory.  These locations share a runway with a civilian airport and simply do not have the resources of a full military base.  These runways are built with small, commuter aircraft in mind, not stealth fighters.


FOL Yellowknife:  7,503
FOL Inuvik:  6,001
FOL Rankin Inlet:  6,000
FOL Iqalut:  8,605


Notice that Iqalut is the only base the meets the minimum requirement.


 

daftandbarmy

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Czech_pivo said:
Notice that Iqalut is the only base the meets the minimum requirement.

Purely coincidentally, it also has the Frobisher Hotel, with a fully functioning bar :)
 

dimsum

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daftandbarmy said:
Purely coincidentally, it also has the Frobisher Hotel, with a fully functioning bar :)

And a nice bar at that!
 

thunderchild

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Would it not make sense to buy a stealth drone for first night operations and if it gets shot down you are not loosing a highly trained pilot?
After the first night the enemy knows your coming besides hanging bombs on the wings of o stealth aircraft destroys the reason for being stealthy anyway
 

PuckChaser

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thunderchild said:
Would it not make sense to buy a stealth drone for first night operations and if it gets shot down you are not loosing a highly trained pilot?
After the first night the enemy knows your coming besides hanging bombs on the wings of o stealth aircraft destroys the reason for being stealthy anyway

Got a link to something that exists in real life?
 

SupersonicMax

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thunderchild said:
Would it not make sense to buy a stealth drone for first night operations and if it gets shot down you are not loosing a highly trained pilot?
After the first night the enemy knows your coming besides hanging bombs on the wings of o stealth aircraft destroys the reason for being stealthy anyway

Kicking the door down on the first night is a very complex problem that requires a custom solution depending on our and the enemy's capabilities and setup.  One thing is for sure, it is not unidimensional and requires multiple asset types with different capabilities.  The F-35 will not go on its own.  Generally, you'll need some SEAD platforms, taking down the enemy's IADS normally with soft kills along with OCA platforms taking care of the air threats.  It'll be followed by strike platforms that will conduct DEAD and strikes on C3 targets.  Deception is part of the game.  Read "Every Man A Tiger" to have an idea of own the Gulf Air War was planned an executed.  They used drones during the first night to stimulate the IADS and worked.
 

GR66

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SupersonicMax said:
Kicking the door down on the first night is a very complex problem that requires a custom solution depending on our and the enemy's capabilities and setup.  One thing is for sure, it is not unidimensional and requires multiple asset types with different capabilities.  The F-35 will not go on its own.  Generally, you'll need some SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) platforms, taking down the enemy's IADS (Integrated Air Defense System) normally with soft kills along with OCA (Offensive Counter-Air) platforms taking care of the air threats.  It'll be followed by strike platforms that will conduct DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses) and strikes on C3 (Command, Control and Communications) targets.  Deception is part of the game.  Read "Every Man A Tiger" to have an idea of own the Gulf Air War was planned an executed.  They used drones during the first night to stimulate the IADS and worked.

My (hopefully accurate) translation of the acronyms for those civilians among us.  Please correct if I've made any mistakes.
 

daftandbarmy

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GR66 said:
My (hopefully accurate) translation of the acronyms for those civilians and Infantry among us.  Please correct if I've made any mistakes.

There, FTFY :)
 

Good2Golf

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One shouldn’t forget the part that SOF and AVN played in DEAD ops in shaping the DESERT STORM battlespace prior to troops crossing the LD (and F-117s conducting their own DEAD).

:2c:

Regards
G2G
 

don3wing

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This is an interesting article from defence-aerospace.com

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/205736/plan-to-add-chaff-launchers-to-f_35a-confirms-‘stealth’-no-longer-enough.html

The F-35A Is Set to Finally Get Chaff Countermeasures to Confuse Enemy Radars (excerpt)
(Source: The War Zone; posted September 9, 2019)[/b]
By Joseph Trevithick

The U.S. Air Force is hoping to integrate a new, advanced chaff countermeasure onto its F-35A Joint Strike Fighters next year, according to a report. The cartridges, which release radar reflective material to blind and confuse enemy aircraft and air defenses, are a staple across many of the service's other combat aircraft, but have been curiously absent from the stealthy F-35's otherwise extensive defensive suite.

Aviation Week's Defense Editor Steve Trimble was first to spot the detail on Sept. 9, 2019. The Air Force included the information about the new chaff cartridge, known presently as the ARM-210, in a draft environmental impact statement, dated August 2019, regarding the basing of F-35s at various Air National Guard facilities. The report includes a host of information on how the aircraft might impact their surrounding environments, including the potential release of countermeasures, such as infrared decoy flares and chaff.

"The ARM-210 chaff proposed for use by the F-35A is currently unavailable and undergoing operational testing," according to the environmental review. "It is expected to be available for use in 2020."

It is unclear whether this applies to the U.S. Marine Corps F-35B or U.S. Navy F-35C variants, as well, or any of the three variants in service with foreign air forces. The F-35's use or potential use of chaff has long been something of a debate, in general. Recent U.S. military budget documents and other sources make no mention of it among the aircraft's expendable countermeasures – flares and towed decoys – which had suggested that it was, indeed, a capability the Joint Strike Fighter lacked and might not necessarily have needed given its stealthy design. (end of excerpt)


Click here for the full story, on the War Zone website.


(EDITOR’S NOTE: Contrary to what is stated above, there is nothing ‘curious’ about the fact that the F-35 was designed without chaff or IR flare launchers.

Since its stealthy design was claimed to make the F-35 invisible to radar, there was clearly no need for active countermeasures like chaff to protect it from radar. This same reasoning explains why no other US Air Force ‘stealth’ aircraft, from the F-117 to the F-22 and B-2, are not fitted with any.

By the same logic, the fact that chaff is now planned to be retrofitted to the F-35A merely confirms that, a quarter-century since it was designed, ‘stealth’ is no longer a sufficient guarantee of the F-35A’s survival in combat – if it ever was.

And this clearly poses a major problem, since ‘stealth’ is the promise that justified the aircraft’s many design limitations in terms of speed, range and weapon payload.

If ‘stealth’ is no longer the combat asset its manufacturer has long claimed to justify these limitations, the F-35A becomes just another aircraft with mediocre performance – but with a high sticker price and huge operating costs.)

-ends-


 

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US firm considering $830 million aircraft manufacturing plant in Lower Mainland

BC’s Lower Mainland is in the running as a possible site for the development of a new major aircraft manufacturing plant with the potential to employ thousands of people.

In an economic investment and growth update, a report by staff with the City of Abbotsford notes the municipality is being considered by an unnamed US aerospace firm “as a Canadian site” for the new plant.

There are two development options of varying scale; the smaller plant would produce a $125-million investment with 7,000 new jobs, while the large plant would result in an $830-million investment and 10,000 or more jobs.

Such a facility would of course require a very significantly-sized site, but no locations have been publicly identified at this time. The plant would certainly bolster the Fraser Valley’s economy, and likely create a further upward demand in housing.

The report will be reviewed by city council next week, and the next round of engagement is scheduled to occur in January 2020.

Major US aerospace firms include Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Gulfstream Aerospace, and Boom Supersonic.

It is currently unclear what type of aircraft could be produced at this facility. For example, this project could be related to the Canadian federal government’s $19-billion procurement process to have a global manufacturer build new fighter jets that replace the ageing CF-18s.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/abbotsford-aircraft-manufacturing-plant
 

Uzlu

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When asked about the price tag, Trudeau’s answer was straightforward:

“By cancelling the F-35 … and choosing instead an alternative bid … we will be saving tens of billions of dollars in the coming decades. That money will be put towards ensuring that the National Shipbuilding Strategy is actually able to complete all the ships promised and continue to invest in the kinds of resources and training and equipment that the men and women in our Armed Forces so justly deserve.
Such as new submarines to replace the Victorias?
COMMENTARY: Alternative Saab fighter could save navy by dodging extravagant F-35s

Evasive manoeuvres on defence spending

Forty years ago, Department of National Defence leaders insisted that Canada needed the most expensive jet available: The F-15 Eagle. Then prime minister Pierre Trudeau instead launched the New Fighter Aircraft competition, focused on industrial offsets and best value. The winner was the least expensive jet in the competition that met existing mission requirements: The CF-18 Hornet.

As history is fond of repeating itself, DND leaders today want the F-35: the most expensive jet available.

Once again, there is an affordable alternative. The new Saab Gripen-E, the only jet in the competition that would be made in Canada, is the least expensive jet that can replace the CF-18. The Gripen is the only jet in the competition with a lower operating cost than the CF-18 and would save taxpayers tens of billions of dollars relative to purchasing the F-35.

In September 2015, Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau announced in Halifax that a Liberal government would not buy the F-35 and instead would launch an “open and transparent competition” to replace the CF-18. Much has been said about excluding the F-35, but pundits often forget the third element of his promise: that by purchasing a less expensive jet, we would free up more money for shipbuilding. When asked about the price tag, Trudeau’s answer was straightforward:

“By cancelling the F-35 … and choosing instead an alternative bid … we will be saving tens of billions of dollars in the coming decades. That money will be put towards ensuring that the National Shipbuilding Strategy is actually able to complete all the ships promised and continue to invest in the kinds of resources and training and equipment that the men and women in our Armed Forces so justly deserve.”

While the CF-18 replacement program hasn’t been as open and transparent as Pierre Trudeau’s NFA program, the Liberal government has made good on its promise to spend more on the navy. Vancouver’s Seaspan will receive an additional $14.2 billion to build 16 more ships for the Coast Guard. Halifax’s Irving Shipyards will receive an additional $1.5 billion to build two more Arctic patrol ships and the Canadian Surface Combatant budget will increase by $8 billion to ensure all 15 new frigates are fully funded.

Defence scholars Anton Bezglasnyy and Douglas Ross have warned that the high operating cost of the F-35 could make it “the plane that ate the Canadian navy.” A 2017 report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office warned about escalating F-35 costs: “The annual F-35 operating and support costs were estimated to be considerably higher than the combined annual costs of several legacy aircraft, and according to DOD officials, the sustainment strategy was not affordable.” The F-35 only offers partial, and in no way guaranteed, industrial offsets.

Saab, on the other hand, has a history of full industrial offsets and affordability. Our NATO allies in the Czech Republic and Hungary are happy with their Gripen-Cs. The Hungarian Air Force performed the NATO Baltic Air Policing mission this summer and released a video on YouTube of Hungarian Gripen pilots chasing Russian Su-27s (and getting displeased looks from the Russian pilots when they pulled alongside). Earlier this month, Czech Gripens began their sixth NATO Air Policing tour.

The next-generation Gripen-E is a super Gripen, maintaining many of the legacy Gripen’s cost advantages while adding a state-of-the-art AESA radar, sensor fusion, more fuel, fifth-generation electronic warfare and battlefield networking. The Gripen-E’s sensor fusion wide-area touch screen is even made by the same subcontractor as the F-35’s sensor fusion display.

The Gripen-E was designed for Arctic operations at northern Swedish bases and forward operating locations. It was also designed to fly farther than the CF-18, making it perfect for large countries. The Gripen-E won Brazil’s contest, beating the French Rafale and American Super Hornet, because it offered domestic assembly with Embraer and met the technical requirements at half the total cost of ownership of the second-place Rafale.

The Gripen-E is also a front-runner in the Finnish competition to replace their F-18 Hornets. The Finnish bid includes a pair of Canadian-made Saab/Bombardier GlobalEye airborne radar jets. Canada’s CP-140 maritime patrol aircraft are older than the CF-18s and need to be replaced by 2030. The Saab/Bombardier GlobalEye and Swordfish jets are the obvious frontrunners, are made in Canada, and were designed to work perfectly with Gripens.

Saab, working with Lockheed Martin, has already delivered 2-Eyes NORAD compliant systems to the Royal Canadian Navy that came with jobs and investment in Halifax. The Halifax Frigate modernization program included Saab Sea Giraffe radars, Saab CEROS fire control systems, and Saab 9LV command-and-control systems. Saab also has a close partnership with Boeing as the primary development and manufacturing partner on the U.S. Air Force’s new T-X fighter trainer.

Regarding 5-Eyes and NATO integration, any claims that the Gripen-E would have a hard time are absurd. Not only are the Czech and Hungarian Gripens regularly flying NATO missions, but Swedish Gripen-Cs were an instrumental part of coalition operations over Libya. The Swedish Gripens integrated flawlessly, using NATO Link-16, flew a third of coalition recon missions, and provided intelligence of such a high quality that Swedish officers were invited to 5-Eyes intelligence meetings. The Canadian commander of those NATO operations, Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard, said of the Swedish jets: “The Gripens have a strategic importance for the operation. They have a spectacular capability.”

The NDP have stated their support for building fighter jets in Canada and the Gripen is the only remaining competitor offering domestic manufacturing. The Green party campaigned against the F-35 in 2015. Saab, being Swedish, is the only vendor committed to nuclear non-proliferation and focused on environmentally responsible manufacturing.

The Conservatives say that they will balance the budget, which they did in 2015, in five years. But the Harper government cut defence spending to below one per cent of GDP and deferred over $9 billion in defence programs to balance the 2015 budget. This led former parliamentary budget officer Kevin Page to lament: “National Defence is becoming a source of funds to reduce the deficit. We’re going to need a whole new capital plan for National Defence.” Purchasing the F-35, and trying to balance the budget with other cuts in defence spending, would put the National Shipbuilding Strategy on the chopping block.

The Saab Gripen is the only jet that’s affordable enough for the Tories to balance the budget without cancelling ships. Purchasing the Gripen-E would allow Trudeau to keep his promise to buy an affordable alternative to the F-35 and fully fund the navy.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/national-perspectives/commentary-alternative-saab-fighter-could-save-navy-by-dodging-extravagant-f-35s-352103/
 

SeaKingTacco

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I have spoken to actual Hungarian Air Force officers about the Grippen. It certainly is an improvement over their Soviet era MIGs, but they didn't describe it as the best fighter in the world. More like the best that they could afford.

I do not see the continued attraction to building in Canada. What is the point of setting up a production line to build fewer than 100 fighters that will then just shutdown in a few years?

If jobs in Canada are the over riding consideration, then wouldn't being a continued partner in the F35 program be the way to go and get a piece of building 3000 (plus) jets over the next 3 decades?
 

FSTO

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SeaKingTacco said:
I have spoken to actual Hungarian Air Force officers about the Grippen. It certainly is an improvement over their Soviet era MIGs, but they didn't describe it as the best fighter in the world. More like the best that they could afford.

I do not see the continued attraction to building in Canada. What is the point of setting up a production line to build fewer than 100 fighters that will then just shutdown in a few years?

If jobs in Canada are the over riding consideration, then wouldn't being a continued partner in the F35 program be the way to go and get a piece of building 3000 (plus) jets over the next 3 decades?

Stop it! You're talking sense and that is not allowed during the election mister!
 
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