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Transgender in the CF (merged)

Andraste

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Bruce Monkhouse said:
She does have a point.....

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-36085314

Seriously Bruce . . . I am not picking on you  :).  I just want to respond to an issue which you brought up.  This will be a bit of read and a bit verbose so I apologize in advance.

Goodness . . . the dreaded bathroom debate.  I wasn’t sure if I wanted to go down this rabbit hole as it will most likely spawn a bit of a heated exchange as this is want to do as evidenced by a host of other sites which beat this into submission daily.  However, I figured I might as well give my point of view as a transwoman. 

IMO, these bills have little to do with protecting people and more to do with political grandstanding and creating a distraction to take people’s focus off the real political issues (war, terrorism, economy).  The Ancient Romans were masters of “eye candy for the masses” a la gladiatorial games and this is very much akin to that concept in that it gives people something to either fight/rant about or others view it as a spectator sport.  However, to counter the pro-bathroom bill stance I provide the following:

A lot of the bathroom bill advocates will continually talk about how preventing transgender folks from using the target gender bathroom (in reality this normally MtF transgender folk as you hear little about FtM folk using the men’s room) will keep sexual offenders away and make it safe for your wives and daughters.  The tragic thing is that they continually say transgender in one breath and follow-up with descriptions such as pedophile, rapist, sexual offender, pervert.  I get it . . . they are not saying that transgender people are such, but continually making the link between the two words and people being people (not all) wind up believing the two are synonymous.  All you have to do is deep dive any posts about the bathroom bill on the internet and you will find for the most part some good discussion but mixed in are comments about transgender pervs attacking little children or women.  In reality, there has never been a documented case of a transgender person hurting or attacking any person in a bathroom (adult or child).  However like some weird seven degrees of Field of Dreams “build it and they will come” . . . say it together enough and some people will believe it. 

So, the intent of these bills is to keep women safe in the bathrooms.  Folks, a woman is more likely to be sexually assaulted/harassed (the statistics bear this out) by someone they know in a social setting.  Should we enact bills which ensure women and men can’t socialize because men can’t be trusted to not sexually harass or assault women?  No, that would be ludicrous because the majority of men do not and the minority are going to do so irrespective of any bills/laws passed.  That is the nature of sexual predators.

Will sexual offenders try to use this as an excuse to enter a women’s restroom?  I am sure it is possible but then again they are less likely to go through all the hassle of dressing up as a woman, walk around in broad daylight in a crowded mall and try to sneak into the women’s restroom to assault someone in a venue that will get them caught for sure.  Sexual predators normally seek targets of opportunity in places where they are less likely to be observed or detected.  A lot of debates around this issue will pull out the story of the guy who entered a women’s change room and undressed claiming to be transgender.  Well, firstly he was not transgender and secondly he had severe mental issues. So yes it can happen but it would be a statistical outlier. 

Believe me I get the fear and I understand people (especially women’s) concerns.  However many think that allowing transgender people to use the women’s bathroom means it is now open season in the public restrooms.  Firstly, the laws which protect all people from assault still apply.  If you walk into a bathroom transgender or not and sexually harass or assault another person . . . it is still against the law and you will be arrested.  If you go into the bathroom, enter a stall and do your business, wash your hands and leave . . . you have broken no law.
 
Also take into account that several Canadian Provinces and several US States have laws which protect gender identity and allow a person to use the bathroom of the gender they present.  These laws have been around for some time with no increase in sexual assaults in women’s bathrooms.  Several European countries have gender neutral bathrooms - men and women doing their business together.  For any here who served in Germany and went to Caracalla Baths in Baden . . . you could share a sauna with the opposite gender and both of you with only what nature saw fit to give you . . . again no issues.  So what is this preoccupation with where a person goes pee?  So long as they do their business, are respectful and leave what is the harm.  While these bills are supposedly put into place to protect women from potential assault in the women’s restroom, these anti-trans laws pose a ferocious threat to the safety and dignity of not only trans men and women, but to anyone who doesn't conform to traditional gender roles.  In other words, a masculine looking woman may face more discrimination in a public restroom than a fully transitioned trans woman, who can go about her business without anyone being the wiser.  Point in case:

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/north-carolina-woman-kicked-out-of-ladies-bathroom-by-police-after-being-mistaken-for-transgender/

And there is this:

http://www.advocate.com/business/2015/06/17/detroit-woman-kicked-out-restaurant-bathroom-looking-man-sues

This is because the bills were rushed out the door without any real method to their madness and now everyone is seeing a Tranny in every stall and some feel free take matters into their own hands because the law implies they can.  In fact one of the assaults above was executed by the police department.

Another argument put forth is that pedophiles will now have free reign to enter the women’s restrooms and attack little girls so we need to protect them.  Well, firstly being a father (yup my daughter may call me mom but I still am her father) . . . when she was that young she never went in a public restroom alone.  Also let’s not forget that a young boy can be preyed upon by a male pedophile in the men’s room.  Indeed, if it is about protecting the children what about the trans children who would be forced to use their birth gender facility.  A trans person is more at risk of being attacked/assaulted than most.  Put that trans child in their birth gender bathroom and the risk increase tenfold.

So, to put a face to this, the below link is about a 14 year old transgirl. Specifically she was born male but identifies female.  In her case her parents (in conjunction with medical professionals) have allowed her to start androgen blocker which in effect stops puberty in its tracks – no testosterone, no development of secondary sex characteristics (no facial hair, no voice change, increased muscle mass). As such she presents more female than male.  If this were your child would you feel safe with her having to use the men’s room in a crowded mall when she is out with her friends?  What’s stopping some sexual offender from seeing her as a target of opportunity?

http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/28/this-photo-of-a-transgender-girl-is-raising-concerns-over-north-carolinas-bathroom-law-5846807/

IMO these bills are nothing to do with protection as I tried to demonstrate above but everything to do with discriminating against a group of people who just want to go pee.  However the bills enact fear, which for some lead to hate and then violence.  I was tooled up nicely by four guys because I used the women’s restroom even though the law says I can.  So you can only imagine how some people will see these laws as an open season permit on transgender folks (adults and children).

In reality this what the bathroom bills will create.  Both Micheal and Buck Angle are transmen.  Specifically, they were born female but identify male.  They have had top surgery (removal of breast tissue) but not bottom surgery (still physiologically a woman).  The bathroom bill would require them to use the women’s bathroom.

http://www.upworthy.com/heres-what-itll-look-like-if-trans-people-arent-allowed-to-use-the-right-bathroom
http://montrealgazette.com/life/transgender-rights-buck-angel-calls-for-gender-neutral-bathrooms

Does Brae a transwoman belong in the men’s room?

http://www.sheknows.com/living/articles/1078139/new-selfie-campaign-combats-anti-trans-restroom-bill

Cheers

Andraste
 

Eaglelord17

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Andraste said:
So, to put a face to this, the below link is about a 14 year old transgirl. Specifically she was born male but identifies female.  In her case her parents (in conjunction with medical professionals) have allowed her to start androgen blocker which in effect stops puberty in its tracks – no testosterone, no development of secondary sex characteristics (no facial hair, no voice change, increased muscle mass). As such she presents more female than male.  If this were your child would you feel safe with her having to use the men’s room in a crowded mall when she is out with her friends?  What’s stopping some sexual offender from seeing her as a target of opportunity?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/28/this-photo-of-a-transgender-girl-is-raising-concerns-over-north-carolinas-bathroom-law-5846807/

I am going to start with, I find your posts very enlightening, two people I went to high school with now identify as trans (one a male identifying as a female, the other a female identifying as a male) and it gives me a bit of insight into there world.

Secondly, this part I have snipped is the only part of the whole transgender debate I actually care about (the rest of it, I say do what you like, it doesn't effect me or anyone else). Kids (I say kids, as until they get older, can't fully understand themselves), shouldn't be given the ability to define there genders. There was a study recently that showed 98% of male children who weren't comfortable with being male, by time they finished puberty were comfortable with being male, and 88% of female who weren't comfortable with being female by time they finished puberty were comfortable with being female.

To me that is too high a rate to use things like puberty blockers, as it has been shown the super majority will find comfort with there gender (and those that don't will be fully aware of that and can do what they please). Andraste I am curious of your thoughts on this. And my source for the information (American College of Pediatricians).

http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children
 

Jarnhamar

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[quote author=Andraste]
What’s stopping some sexual offender from seeing her as a target of opportunity?
[/quote]
I find this question pretty silly. What's to stop a sexual offender from seeing any 14 year old boy as a target of opportunity?

What makes a 14 year old that looks female in a male washroom more at risk than a 14 year old that looks male in a male washroom?

Maybe it's just me but the article seems to suggest pretty skinny girls  are more at risk to assault than girls that aren't 14 year old models?
 

Andraste

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Jarnhamar said:
I find this question pretty silly. What's to stop a sexual offender from seeing any 14 year old boy as a target of opportunity?

What makes a 14 year old that looks female in a male washroom more at risk than a 14 year old that looks male in a male washroom?

Maybe it's just me but the article seems to suggest pretty skinny girls  are more at risk to assault than girls that aren't 14 year old models?

Hi Jarnhamar,

I was using this example to demonstrate that the bathroom bills are designed (or so they say) to protect young girls from male sexual predators entering the women's bathroom and molesting them . . . which the statistic demonstrate has never occured.  Your point is exactly what I was demonstrating.  These bills do nothing to stop male sexual predators from entering the men's washroom (which is the more likely scenario) and molesting young boys or for that matter female predators from entering the women's rest room and molesting young girls.  So the argument from the pro-bathroom camp IMO is moot as it does not focus on the actual safety of children (all children) it just attempts sensationalize a non-existent boogeyman (men in women's clothing lurking in the bathroom trying to molest young girls).  My added point was that by forcing young trans girls or young trans boys into the bathroom of their birth gender, it places them at an additional risk of being assaulted/harassed for being who they are . . . trans.  As an adult trans, if someone comes at me I would like to think I could put up a decent fight, a young trans child is not likely to have that latitude 

My point was not to say that only trans kids are at risk but that the logic behind the bills is flawed precisely for the reason you pointed out.

Cheers

Andraste
 

Andraste

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Eaglelord17 said:
I am going to start with, I find your posts very enlightening, two people I went to high school with now identify as trans (one a male identifying as a female, the other a female identifying as a male) and it gives me a bit of insight into there world.

Secondly, this part I have snipped is the only part of the whole transgender debate I actually care about (the rest of it, I say do what you like, it doesn't effect me or anyone else). Kids (I say kids, as until they get older, can't fully understand themselves), shouldn't be given the ability to define there genders. There was a study recently that showed 98% of male children who weren't comfortable with being male, by time they finished puberty were comfortable with being male, and 88% of female who weren't comfortable with being female by time they finished puberty were comfortable with being female.

To me that is too high a rate to use things like puberty blockers, as it has been shown the super majority will find comfort with there gender (and those that don't will be fully aware of that and can do what they please). Andraste I am curious of your thoughts on this. And my source for the information (American College of Pediatricians).

http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children

Hi Eaglelord,

I have my own thoughts on this subject and will admit many in the community do not agree with my stance.  Let me explain . . .

From my own personal experience, I knew quite young there was something different about me.  I could not stand up loudly at age 5 and proclaim . . . I think I am a girl.  However, I did question various aspects of my maleness and societal pressures to conform (much different time when I was young).  I remember wanting to wear a dress to school like my sisters but was told no . . . vehemently by my father to the tune of a good strapping when I insisted.  In essence this desire faded because it was beat out of me.  Kids are resilient and I continued to socialize boy but still longed for all things girl, got along better with the girls at school but still . . . played sports (hockey the great past-time), went hunting with my dad, learned to fix cars, and whatnot.  Still there was always something.

I agree the prevalence of true transsexuals is very low (the statistics bear that out).  I do some outreach work with families who have children who present as trans.  For the most part . . . again this is my opinion and where many get upset with me . . . I truly believe they are gender questioning for the most part.  We all do it to some extent when we are young because we have no true sense of gender.  Just because Johnny likes to put on nail polish like his mom does not mean he is a trans girl . . . he may merely wish to emulate his mother.  Next week he could be walking around in his dad's work boots digging in the yard.  So while I agree these children need to be assessed and watched over time but IMHO they need to be allowed to develop naturally and any HRT should only be looked at once all (including the child) are certain the individual is trans.  Now I will say that for the most part this is what occurs.  A child cannot just insist they are a girl and androgen blockers get doled out like jellybeans.  This is a multi disciplinary approach including pediatric specialists in health and mental health, counseling sessions and continued monitoring.   

Now the above aside, I have met some children (tweens for the most part) who have serious GID to the point of being self destructive.  These children know deep in their core they are in the wrong body and like some adults sometimes HRT is the only way to quell the demons. 

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers

Andraste
 

Jarnhamar

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Good points (in reply to me) thanks.  The bathroom thing to me is dumb,  I don't care who is beside me as long as they aren't wiping shit on the walls with their hands.
Guys do awkward shit while using urinals always,  turf em all and make stalls everywhere.

Another topic but "child-models"  seems way more irresponsible to me than shared bathrooms.

But speaking about the bathroom issues if you go back aways there was a discussion which spoke to the difference between  shared bathrooms  (harmless  really) and elementary and high school change rooms and showers.  Might be an interesting read for you.
 

Andraste

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To be honest not a big fan of crap on the bathroom walls or child models  :).  My take is let kids be kids (trans or not) and if they want to sashay down the runway when they get older, that is their choice. In the meantime, let them have fun. However I feel the same way about parents who live vicariously through their children playing hockey, dancing or whatnot.  Yes, if the child has a talent, foster it, but don't make it a cult following. 

Change rooms . . . hmm . . . good question and one again where I differ from many in my community.  The bathroom thing is a hill I will die on, after all I am answering nature's call in the privacy of a shut stall as are the other ladies around me.  Change rooms . . . here is my personal take:

I am cognizant that I am physiologically male and that my presence in a women's change room would be awkward to say the least (for both the women around me and myself).  Now, I have been in coed in saunas in Europe but they (Europeans) have a different outlook on things and even so, the change rooms are still separate.  Now, if I had gone the distance (gender reassignment surgery) or even an orchiectomy (essentially a removal of the berries from the twig and berries dyad), then I would be more inclined to think the ladies vice the gents change room would be more appropriate.  At work, I still work out and an accord was reached in that a section of the male change room has been curtained off (their choice . . . not mine) to afford me privacy.  Oddly enough the men were more put out by my presence then the women so it almost ended with me in the women's change room.  I chose the men's because I was just not comfortable enough with the prospect.

Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . . I think as a species it is possible but we (both genders) will have to mature a bit more before we cross that bridge.

Cheers

Andraste 
 

Andraste

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GR66 said:
I think it's your caveat that many people may have an issue with.  The physiological traits of male/female are the only clearly defined characteristics of male and female

Hi GR66,

The caveat was in response to a post where the OP posited that I was making a mockery of human life by seeing men and women as made up of only the superficial (i.e., physiology, how you appear).  My point was that I don't.  Indeed it is directly opposite of the OP's contention.  Specifically, gender is a frame of mind which has nothing to do with what nature saw fit to give you.  Some transsexuals require complete reconstructive surgery to put themselves in a good place and feel the way they were meant to be. Others require only some medical procedures and others like myself require none . . . each person's transition is particular to them and there is no one way.  When I look in the mirror I don't see a man, I see a woman who just happens to have the physiological make-up of a genetic male.  It is what nature gave me and I am quite comfortable with that.  However nature also decided to give me (for lack of a better descriptor) a brain wired "woman" not "man".

Believe me, I would love to just be who I am, a woman regardless of if I am wearing a dress or my grungy work clothes when I am cutting swath with my chainsaw.  However, as you pointed out (quite accurately) society is not quite ready to perceive a person as a person irrespective of how they dress/present/look or whatnot.  Many feel out of sorts if things don't fall within a neat binary.  So, I take great strides to present reasonably well as a woman from a physical perspective.  Now this in and of itself is a laborious process which means my work day begins at 0330 hrs.  If I could just put on a light layer of make-up and head out without all the other nausea . . . I would but unfortunately society is not quite ready.  At home, I don't do make-up, I keep my hair in a ponytail and wear comfy clothes (yoga pants, best kept secret).  Do I look female? I suppose with a smaller frame, light facial hair . . . from a distance . . . possibly.  However the kid is not pretty and she never survives first contact.  :eek:  :)

Cheers

Andraste
   
 

Journeyman

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Andraste said:
Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . .
Maybe that point should be introduced in the "Encouraging Fitness" thread.  :pop:
 

PuckChaser

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Andraste said:
Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . .

Right after becoming a citizen requires military service in the Fleet or Mobile Infantry.
 

Lumber

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PuckChaser said:
Right after becoming a citizen requires military service in the Fleet or Mobile Infantry.

Not soon enough...
 

Fishbone Jones

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Andraste said:
Will we get to the point where men and women use communal showers . . . I think as a species it is possible but we (both genders) will have to mature a bit more before we cross that bridge.

Cheers

Andraste

Already in place in other militaries. It's North America that is lagging
 

Jarnhamar

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Interesting (older) article about a transgender mma fighter mixing it up with a female fighter.

http://www.libertynewsnow.com/transgender-female-mma-fighter-brutally-injures-female-opponent/article1545
 

Andraste

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Hey Jarnharmar,

Yeah it is quite a debate but I think it was put to rest some time back. 

Fallon Fox prior to publically transitioning underwent HRT for over a year. Now the net effect of HRT is reduction of testosterone in to female levels (testosterone is what gives men your strength) this with the addition of estrogen to female levels would have reduced Fallon's body strength significantly. In essence she would have had the strength of a woman similar in size and build.  I know trans women (athletes) who prior to HRT could bench up to 280lbs with ease . . . now they are lucking to bench half that weight.  Now where her advantage would have been is bone density and size but then again a woman of similar size, bone density and fighting skill might have done just as much damage. Heck, I have fought for years and even as a guy I took some major smack downs from female sparing partners and I am quite sure if they were not holding back, they could have done significant damage.

Cheers

Andraste
 

Jarnhamar

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I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this story. 

U of T prof who refuses to use genderless pronouns
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.3786140/i-m-not-a-bigot-meet-the-u-of-t-prof-who-refuses-to-use-genderless-pronouns-1.3786144



I found it an interesting read, specifically where he says " I don't recognize another person's right to decide what words I'm going to use".
I knew it was only a matter of time before the boaty-mc boatface crowd decided they would be referred to pronouns such as your majesty, his highness.

 

Altair

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Just asking because someone has asked, what is the Canadian Forces stance on transgenders in the showers?

Specifically transgenders who have not undergone SRS. I was talking about how we all shower in the same space and get changed in the same space, and they asked what do transgenders do, and I don't want to give out inaccurate information.
 

mariomike

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Altair said:
< snip > transgenders in the showers?

This may, or may not, help,

https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca++transgender+shower&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Vuh4Waq1HM6fXoP2n7AO&gws_rd=ssl
 

Andraste

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Altair said:
... Specifically transgenders who have not undergone SRS. I was talking about how we all shower in the same space and get changed in the same space, and they asked what do transgenders do, and I don't want to give out inaccurate information.

It really depends on the comfort level of the transgender person and those around them.  There is no official policy (yet) but this is generally approached in stages. It might surprise many to know that a very small percentage of male to female transgender people get gender confirming surgery (GCS) as it is a very invasive and painful process (Google it and there are YouTube videos in great detail). As such, many TGs are post-op their entire lives and still access the appropriate change room. What many miss out on, is that the women's change room is fundamentally different from the male change room. There is a great modicum of privacy in the women's change room with towels strategically worn, changing in the shower stalls and so on.  Whereas in the male change room everything is on display (for the most part).

I access the women's change room as a trans woman because that is where I belong. I shower, change and go about my day with no real hassles. I did not just bust in one day and say . . . I'm here, accept me . . . there was much consultation and discussion to ensure all parties dignity and respect was dealt with.

I hope this provides some insight to your question.

Cheers

Andraste
 

daftandbarmy

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It might be an issue with other arms and services but, in the infantry, as long as they're able to pull their weight and die in heals in front of the machine guns for victory like everyone else, I really don't GAF.

We all bleed red.
 
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