• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Ukraine - Superthread

Maxman1

Full Member
Reaction score
555
Points
960
...Or two stones with one bird.

9ae.jpg
 

KevinB

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Reaction score
11,684
Points
1,260
I wonder how much of that is a knock-on from a US defence industry, forty to seventy years ago, happy to stifle, underbid, buy out, pressure, and otherwise displace everyone else's generally smaller post-WWII industries.
The US rebuilt most of Europe…
One doesn’t need an enormous Defense Industry to have a well equipped Military and depth of munitions to last more than a few weeks.
One just needs a will.
Separately: Canada should have retained a much more robust defence industry, and much more robust war stocks. It's not like we don't have room...
Despite what many Canadians believe, Freedom isn’t free.
 

TacticalTea

Sr. Member
Reaction score
1,192
Points
960
The US rebuilt most of Europe…
One doesn’t need an enormous Defense Industry to have a well equipped Military and depth of munitions to last more than a few weeks.
One just needs a will.

Despite what many Canadians believe, Freedom isn’t free.
Thomas Jefferson said "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Manifestly, Canadians and West Europeans are content to leave the bleeding to the Americans.

Grow my tree, you imperialist bastards!

...
 

Furniture

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
2,349
Points
1,110
The US rebuilt most of Europe…
One doesn’t need an enormous Defense Industry to have a well equipped Military and depth of munitions to last more than a few weeks.
One just needs a will.

Despite what many Canadians believe, Freedom isn’t free.
Not to defend Canada's current delinquency, but larger American companies undercutting Canadian defence contractors likely lead to some of the current apathy.

"Why spend billions on the American military industrial complex? After all they kill the Arrow!"

If Canada had a robust defence industry, it would be easier to sell buying from it. Nobody bats an eye at buying more LAVs from GLDS London...
 

KevinB

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Reaction score
11,684
Points
1,260
Not to defend Canada's current delinquency, but larger American companies undercutting Canadian defence contractors likely lead to some of the current apathy.

"Why spend billions on the American military industrial complex? After all they kill the Arrow!"
Let’s be honest, the Arrow killed the Arrow. Dreaming big is great, but it wasn’t anything more than an airframe with no avionics.
When Canada shut it down, where did that industry and personnel go?
Down here…


If Canada had a robust defence industry, it would be easier to sell buying from it. Nobody bats an eye at buying more LAVs from GLDS London...
GDLS being a US company…
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
16,759
Points
1,160
Thomas Jefferson said "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Manifestly, Canadians and West Europeans are content to leave the bleeding to the Americans.

Grow my tree, you imperialist bastards!

...

Sidebar: A good politician, Jefferson never served in action with the Continental Army. His 'fightin' words', however, seem to match his role as a Colonel in their equivalent of the A Res though ;) ;)

Was Thomas Jefferson in the Military?​

Thomas Jefferson was elected President of the United States on February 17th, 1801, making today the 221st anniversary of his election. He was the third U.S. president and one of the greatest political thinkers of any generation. But was Thomas Jefferson in the military?

Fun Fact: Thomas Jefferson WAS in the Military!​

Most people probably don’t think about him as a seasoned combat Veteran. Instead, many probably think of Jefferson as an Enlightenment thinker and the writer of the Declaration of Independence. But to Jefferson, military service was actually a large part of his early years.
When Jefferson was just 27 years old, he was appointed to the Albemarle County Militia by the Governor of Virginia. It’s only natural to wonder what rank was Thomas Jefferson when he was given this appointment. As it happens, he started right out of the gate with the rank of colonel.
In 1770, 31 years before he was elected to the presidency, Jefferson began his military career by preparing the Virginia militia for battle. He kept the muster rolls, led regular drills, and made sure that any money owed to the sheriff for the militia was paid up. Given his legal background, it’s probably no surprise that he was also responsible for such militia dealings as conducting a court-martial where necessary.

 

CBH99

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
1,801
Points
1,090
The missing layers of Canadian AD are basically A through Z…
Between the peacekeeping years of Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo - we didn't need an AD bubble. Afghanistan was next, and we didn't need an AD bubble over there either.

Since the cold war was over, and there was no state on state aggression happening anywhere on our radar, AD was a capability we let atrophy to save money.


I actually don't blame the powers at be for this one.

Yes it would have been easy & a token amount to keep a bare AD capability alive. But the war in Afghanistan was expensive, there was plenty of kit fielded in a very short time - and the money for a capability not needed was used towards capabilities we did at the time.

(Imagine if we didn't UAV's or didn't deploy the Griffons because that money was used to fund an AD capability that wasn't needed, and the AD gunners were twiddling their thumbs back here in Canada... we'd be frustrated.)

Our problem isn't that we didn't fund AD during the few decades we didn't need it.

Our problem is that everything takes so f**king long to get done here when we can't UOR something.
 

KevinB

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Reaction score
11,684
Points
1,260
Between the peacekeeping years of Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo - we didn't need an AD bubble. Afghanistan was next, and we didn't need an AD bubble over there either.

Since the cold war was over, and there was no state on state aggression happening anywhere on our radar, AD was a capability we let atrophy to save money.
It is always easy to dial back from Full Conflict than scale up...
The CAF budget should easily allow for a lot more than it gets - that isn't a budget issue, that is a management issue.
I actually don't blame the powers at be for this one.
I do

Yes it would have been easy & a token amount to keep a bare AD capability alive. But the war in Afghanistan was expensive, there was plenty of kit fielded in a very short time - and the money for a capability not needed was used towards capabilities we did at the time.
Honestly a ton of stuff bought for Afghanistan was useless, and/or used to hide the fact that the CA had rusted out of lot of items and needed immediate replacement once bullets started to fly -- I'd argue a slew of needed gear that was even more important to the ground mission wasn't every actually acquired.

(Imagine if we didn't UAV's or didn't deploy the Griffons because that money was used to fund an AD capability that wasn't needed, and the AD gunners were twiddling their thumbs back here in Canada... we'd be frustrated.)

Our problem isn't that we didn't fund AD during the few decades we didn't need it.

Our problem is that everything takes so f**king long to get done here when we can't UOR something.
You can't grow any capability overnight -- just because you aren't using a capability currently doesn't mean you should not have it, or it isn't needed.
The money isn't the issue, the way that DND and the CAF squander it is.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
5,378
Points
1,160

Czech_pivo

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,959
Points
1,140
Let’s be honest, the Arrow killed the Arrow. Dreaming big is great, but it wasn’t anything more than an airframe with no avionics.
When Canada shut it down, where did that industry and personnel go?
Down here…



GDLS being a US company…
My father-in-law ended up working with a number of those CDN's when he was doing some parachute work for NASA back in the mid 60's through early 80's.
 

CBH99

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
1,801
Points
1,090
It is always easy to dial back from Full Conflict than scale up...
The CAF budget should easily allow for a lot more than it gets - that isn't a budget issue, that is a management issue.

I do


Honestly a ton of stuff bought for Afghanistan was useless, and/or used to hide the fact that the CA had rusted out of lot of items and needed immediate replacement once bullets started to fly -- I'd argue a slew of needed gear that was even more important to the ground mission wasn't every actually acquired.


You can't grow any capability overnight -- just because you aren't using a capability currently doesn't mean you should not have it, or it isn't needed.
The money isn't the issue, the way that DND and the CAF squander it is.
I couldn’t agree more with every single thing you said. Literally my thoughts exactly.

However, given the GOFO staff of the CAF at the time and the huge budget cuts experienced during the 90’s during the so-called peace dividend, I can see why AD was allowed to atrophy while scarce dollars were put towards things more urgently needed.

Due to no air threat (not even drones were an issue back then) in Bosnia, Croatia, or Kosovo, or Afghanistan - I understand why that was the capability we allowed to wither away. (No sense of foresight at all, ofcourse.)



Now our budget is much healthier than it was in the 90’s, and could go so much further than it does.

We do squander it, hands down.

The fact that we lack some basic capabilities yet return hundreds of millions or billions of dollars each year just goes to show how warped the system is.

(One of our biggest flaws, I think anyway, is how long it takes for the simplest of common sense decisions to be made. Everything is made too complex, too slow, and ends up being too expensive due to us dithering.)
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Myth
Reaction score
5,814
Points
1,160
Let’s be honest, the Arrow killed the Arrow. Dreaming big is great, but it wasn’t anything more than an airframe with no avionics.
When Canada shut it down, where did that industry and personnel go?
Down here…
Not to derail, but a large chunk of the costs was the proposed missile system, something that was affecting all fighters of that era as it had becoming painfully clear the mighty mouse rocket system was hopeless at shooting down anything. The Arrow had a useful weapons bay that could be adapted as new systems came on line. Once they dropped the new missile system, costs came down. The US sold us a donkey in the form of Bomac and then we had to buy an interceptor after all anyways.
 

Furniture

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
2,349
Points
1,110
Let’s be honest, the Arrow killed the Arrow. Dreaming big is great, but it wasn’t anything more than an airframe with no avionics.
When Canada shut it down, where did that industry and personnel go?
Down here…



GDLS being a US company…
I wasn't really clear on my position, I was trying to be quick rather than detailed.

I'm well aware that the Arrow killed itself by being too ambitious, and too costly, while its role was being made obsolete by other technologies. My point with the Arrow is that there is a narrative in Canada that says the US killed off the Arrow to keep Canadian businesses from competing. With that narrative in place it's hard to sell to Canadians that our tax dollars should go to America to buy kit.

My overall point was this; Canada lives in a safe part of the world above the largest arms producer, so we don't feel threatened enough to invest in a robust defence industry, and we are too cheap/anti-American to spend in America to buy what we need to be a serious country. If like the Poles we had the real threat of invasion/fighting in our own streets, we'd be serious about a defence industry.

As for GDLS, yes, it's American, but it provides jobs in Canada. Where the corporate HQ is matters less than where the jobs making stuff are in my mind. Which is why I think courting Korea to make K2s, K9s, etc., in Canada would be interesting.
 

GR66

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,847
Points
1,160
I couldn’t agree more with every single thing you said. Literally my thoughts exactly.

However, given the GOFO staff of the CAF at the time and the huge budget cuts experienced during the 90’s during the so-called peace dividend, I can see why AD was allowed to atrophy while scarce dollars were put towards things more urgently needed.

Due to no air threat (not even drones were an issue back then) in Bosnia, Croatia, or Kosovo, or Afghanistan - I understand why that was the capability we allowed to wither away
. (No sense of foresight at all, ofcourse.)
People seem to forget that Canada is for all intents and purposes an island...and that realistically the primary military threats to us directly are AIR (and SEA) threats.

Letting AD capabilities cease to exist ("atrophy" is far too kind a characterization) is a fundamental failure to address Line 1 of any Defence policy..."The Defence of Canada".
 

KevinB

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Reaction score
11,684
Points
1,260
Mods - probably a good time for a thread split.

I wasn't really clear on my position, I was trying to be quick rather than detailed.

I'm well aware that the Arrow killed itself by being too ambitious, and too costly, while its role was being made obsolete by other technologies. My point with the Arrow is that there is a narrative in Canada that says the US killed off the Arrow to keep Canadian businesses from competing. With that narrative in place it's hard to sell to Canadians that our tax dollars should go to America to buy kit.
Roger I thought that was what you where getting at - I just like to belabor points ;)

My overall point was this; Canada lives in a safe part of the world above the largest arms producer, so we don't feel threatened enough to invest in a robust defence industry, and we are too cheap/anti-American to spend in America to buy what we need to be a serious country. If like the Poles we had the real threat of invasion/fighting in our own streets, we'd be serious about a defence industry.

As for GDLS, yes, it's American, but it provides jobs in Canada. Where the corporate HQ is matters less than where the jobs making stuff are in my mind. Which is why I think courting Korea to make K2s, K9s, etc., in Canada would be interesting.
I still think that buying into US DOD Programs at Ground Zero makes more sense, as one can get significant Industrial Offsets in being a partner.
There is absolutely nothing in the US Inventory that Canada couldn't use - some items maybe not practical for a smaller military (CVN's for example as the RCN could basically crew the Ford and would need to call it a day beyond that) - but the items themselves could be used.

Sometimes working with a US Program at certain points even can generate a PIP or Block II, and satisfies the OEM, the US based Customer and the CAF, isn't that right @Good2Golf

When one sees the extreme deficit of equipment that the average Canadian Soldier has just at the individual level, and then what is missing as one moves up to larger formations, then looks at the cost of what was spent on the deficient, or insignificant quantity etc items the CAF does or does not have and sees what the equivalent items are in DOD, the CAF budget could be used a lot more efficiently in working more seamlessly with DOD down here -- which is a win win for everyone - as the CAF doesn't need to spend as much, the CAF is better outfitted, and We down here don't resent you as a freeloader all the time...
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Relic
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
5,378
Points
1,160
Ukrainian electrical system a lot more resilient than feared.



"We are more than sure, especially after last week's attack, that Russia has no chance of plunging Ukraine into darkness," he said during a speech at the Kyiv Security Forum, Censor.NET reports.

Timchenko noted that no energy system in the world, which in terms of size corresponds to Ukraine's, has ever suffered such damage as our energy system received last week.

He added that after the shelling in some regions, power workers managed to restore electricity supply in a few hours, and in some - in a few days.

For those of us that live, or have lived in BC, that have survived ice storms and hurricanes it shouldn't come as big a surprise as it might. Splicing lines, replacing poles and towers, swapping transformers..... routine maintenance.
 
Last edited:
Top