US Army Probes POW Abuse - Video

[girlfiredup]

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/videos500251.shtml

 

[kruger]

Disturbing. Al-Jazeera must be thrilled, just imagine how they will present the material.

 

[Northern Touch]

Are those pictures actually verified as being real?

 

[nULL]

They are....BBC has a slide show of images, as does MSNBC. And Napalm, AL-Jazeera will present the material in the same way that any other major news network will - as a disgusting, probably isolated incident by soldiers under stress. Go read their webpage, it‘s not all propoganda you know - did you know they are one of the only news networks still inside Fallujah?

 

[Pte.Nomercy]

What a bunch of garbage,

Seriously this is nothing compared to what happened in Vietnam.

The American‘s have a notorious history with atrocities on their prisoners. Only 10 Iraqis killed so far? No way there is far more and I‘d be my life on it too.

All of a sudden putting sand bags on prisoner's heads is barbaric? What about the nature of the war itself? American‘s are shooting anything that moves over there and blowing up civilian buildings etc. That‘s not in the Geneva Convention...

This seems all fishy to me, and I‘d doubt that if these pics were real. I‘d also like to know how ,and why, they were revealed.

The last time something like this happened was in Somalia when a Canadian killed one prisoner, the result was the disbandment of the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

The states will probably cover this up, just like the over 10,000 people they killed in Somalia during their "humanitarian mission" that would later become a award winning glory move, Black Hawk Down, at least 500 people were killed in that classic American **** up alone! Makes you think.

Already you can tell that this mistreatment of prisoners is being hushed up since it is being over shadowed by that rescued US POW and the constant fighting in Fallujha.

Just a word of advice, "think outside the box," when watching all these American news stations and some news in Canada too, since they all feed off each other with information provided from the main news centers like CNN, that gives a â Å“distortedâ ? view as to what is really going on.

Remember, war is always a messy disgusting web of lies and corruption and this one is by proving to be a classic.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Pte.Nomercy:
[qb]Seriously this is nothing compared to what happened in Vietnam.

The American‘s have a notorious history with atrocities on their prisoners.[/qb]

What sources are you referencing for this information? Do you have any hard figures for US "atrocities" in Vietnam? My Lai is well-documented but which others are you referring to?

 

[kruger]

Dorosh are you ignorant or just blind? Is it so hard to believe that during war it‘s hard for soldiers to treat their foe humanely, especially if they had previously lost comrades in battle, and if your opponent may be considered racially inferior by some in particular?

 

[stukirkpatrick]

Napalm, Dorosh is just trying to clarify the sources of Nomercy‘s argument. Anyone can make statements, but for them to be valid they must be sourced.

Don‘t attack the person, attack the argument, by countering it with hard facts.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I suspect the original post was simply an anti-American flame and that the poster really has no solid basis for his statement. I requested a clarification.

Oh, Napalm, if you are in fact an expert on US atrocities in Southeast Asia, I would love to read about it.

There are Vietnam veterans who read this board, and I am of the understanding that the vast majority of US servicemen and combat units deployed to that region performed honourably and in the majority of cases, well. I am not about to insult veterans of that regrettable conflict by standing by while wild accusations are levelled at them.

If you can prove that US soldiers were "notorious" for atrocities in SE Asia, do so now. Otherwise, an apology is in order to all of VN vets who post here.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Napalm,
I see your back with your usual obnoxious self. You were warned before. Keep it civil and back up your facts. You‘ve done neither. Good bye.

 

[Bill Smy]

Here is the official report on the abuse -- Investigation of the 800th Military Police Brigade.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/800-mp-bde.htm

I saw Brigadier General Karpinski interviewed on a TV talk show. She impressed me as someone who does not take responsibility for anything that reflects badly on her.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bill Smy:
[qb]
I saw Brigadier General Karpinski interviewed on a TV talk show. She impressed me as someone who does not take responsibility for anything that reflects badly on her. [/qb]

Is this part of that "armchair warrior" thingie you mentioned in your other post to me?

How many prisons have you ever run?

 

[Bill Smy]

The point of my comment was not to state that I could have run a prison better. Rather it was to comment on her sense of command responsibility, something the Investigators commented on in their report.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Bill I got the same impression that you did. It seemed like she was gearing up to play a big game of pass the buck.

I have a feeling i could run the prison better.
Rule 1.
No tourturing the inmates.
Rule 2.
No naked pile ons.
Rule 3.
No cameras. (Why are troops ALWAYS taking pictures of the stupid stuff they do?)

I hate that goofy look the female in the pictures has on her face. I bet she wouldnt be smiling like that if she was alone with an able bodied prisoner or better yet, in one of the cities on patrol where real soldiers are feeling the aftermath of what went on in the prison.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bill Smy:
[qb] The point of my comment was not to state that I could have run a prison better. Rather it was to comment on her sense of command responsibility, something the Investigators commented on in their report. [/qb]

Oh, well as long as you‘re not being an armchair warrior, there are certainly enough of those around here.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ghost778:
[qb] Bill I got the same impression that you did. It seemed like she was gearing up to play a big game of pass the buck.

I have a feeling i could run the prison better.
Rule 1.
No tourturing the inmates.
Rule 2.
No naked pile ons.
Rule 3.
No cameras. (Why are troops ALWAYS taking pictures of the stupid stuff they do?)

I hate that goofy look the female in the pictures has on her face. I bet she wouldnt be smiling like that if she was alone with an able bodied prisoner or better yet, in one of the cities on patrol where real soldiers are feeling the aftermath of what went on in the prison. [/qb]

It is interesting that supposedly many of the prison staff were contracted civilians rather than soldiers. From an uninformed point of view, that is a nifty way to avoid paying for GI Bill benefits and pensions, not such a great way for ensuring your prison guards are subject to military law.

Would be interesting to see these American contractors arrested and taken to the Hague for war crimes trials. Even Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, defended the conduct of his guards on the stand, declaring "I was there to exterminate people, not torment them" and went on to say that indiscretions by his guards were severely dealt with.

 

[muskrat89]

An interesting slant -

Yesterday, they were interviewing a member of Iraq‘s new governing council, on the radio station that I listen to. They asked what the council, and Iraqis in general thought of the reports/photos of prisoner abuse. Interestingly, he downplayed the events big time. He said that several members of the council visit the prisons regularly to assess conditions, talk to inmates, etc. He said that most people knew that this was not indicative of the treatment received by prisoners. He indicated that, from an Iraqi point of view, this has little effect, in the grand scheme of things.

He made a number of very interesting comments about a variety of topics, most of which contradicted the slant that the mainstream media is putting on everything.

 

[Pte.Nomercy]

Micheal Dorosh,

Firstly, I like to announce that it was not my intention to insult anyone for what I said in my original post.

Secondly, I suggest you pick up a copy of â Å“Vietnam Voices: Perspectives on the War Years, 1941-1982â ? by John Clark Pratt.

In this book I have found it to be very unbiased and very truthful as diary entries and un-falsified reports are published in this book as well as kill statistics of how civilians were killed etc.

Also there are many incidents described in the book of how GI's suffered severe stress in Vietnam and all the brave and noble actions they did just to survive, as well as putting up with the group of soldiers who sadistically killed and raped civilians there.

The book provides all perspectives on the conflict ranging from the French all the way to the North Vietnamese.

That is one good source for you right there Dorosh. My original comment was general, and I realize that it is not always the best idea to do so, but I didn't think it would be necessary to provide a list of such events as it is well known, and proven, that this sort of thing happened in Vietnam, hence why soldiers were spat on when they returned and also why this horrible conflict is held in such poor regard.

As for disgracing Vietnam veterans, I was not doing that in my statement, I was referring to the American government acting â Å“so surprisedâ ? that this sort of thing happened, when they were the ones who covered such things up in previous conflicts and deployments.

In 1993 Colin Powel acknowledged in PSA's (Public Service Announcements) that US troops performed atrocities in Somalia for example, killing 10,000 people in the humanitarian mission Operation Restore Hope and apologized to the country of Somalia and the American people and vowed to fix the problem. Just yesterday I saw him on Larry King and he stated â Å“That I never saw anything like it before.â ? Seriously, here is a man who was in two tours in Vietnam and oversaw the cover up of the atrocities in Somalia and he's â Å“surprisedâ ??

By the way, I have talked to Vietnam veterans from such as a former Recon Marine who did three tours there that spanned all the way to Cambodia so I suggest that you do not imply that I do not have great respect for these people who were drafted or thrown into such a controversial conflict. He personally showed me things that he brought back from there and told me of how, as he put it, â Å“everything was ****ed up over there.â ?

Thirdly, I was not aware that American veterans came on this site, I always understood this as Army.ca as a Canadian military oriented site, if anyone was offended by my apparent "Anti-American statement" this was not my intent.

Hopefully this cleared things up.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Pte.Nomercy:
[QB] Micheal Dorosh,

Firstly, I like to announce that it was not my intention to insult anyone for what I said in my original post.

Secondly, I suggest you pick up a copy of â Å“Vietnam Voices: Perspectives on the War Years, 1941-1982â ? by John Clark Pratt.

In this book I have found it to be very unbiased and very truthful as diary entries and un-falsified reports are published in this book as well as kill statistics of how civilians were killed etc.

Also there are many incidents described in the book of how GI's suffered severe stress in Vietnam and all the brave and noble actions they did just to survive, as well as putting up with the group of soldiers who sadistically killed and raped civilians there.

The book provides all perspectives on the conflict ranging from the French all the way to the North Vietnamese.

I‘ll have to pick that one up, thanks. Does it really allege that the majority of units in Vietnam committed "atrocities"?

That is one good source for you right there Dorosh. My original comment was general, and I realize that it is not always the best idea to do so, but I didn't think it would be necessary to provide a list of such events as it is well known, and proven, that this sort of thing happened in Vietnam, hence why soldiers were spat on when they returned and also why this horrible conflict is held in such poor regard.

I disagree; I don‘t think it is "well proven" at all. There are a lot of myths about that war. One is that the war was fought by draftees. A VN vet on another board informs me the majority of soldiers to serve in country were volunteers - probably a slim majority, but nonetheless a majority.

I also think the spitting may have been more of a perception on the part of the spitters than any bonafide proof that the troops they were "welcoming" home were war criminals. Many of those who abused troops coming home were probably protesting the government as much as the troops, but that is a whole other argument which is a bit like counting the angels on the head of a pin. I am sure their motivations were far more wide ranging than any conviction they had that US troops were war criminals by and large.

As for disgracing Vietnam veterans, I was not doing that in my statement, I was referring to the American government acting â Å“so surprisedâ ? that this sort of thing happened, when they were the ones who covered such things up in previous conflicts and deployments.

In 1993 Colin Powel acknowledged in PSA's (Public Service Announcements) that US troops performed atrocities in Somalia for example, killing 10,000 people in the humanitarian mission Operation Restore Hope and apologized to the country of Somalia and the American people and vowed to fix the problem. Just yesterday I saw him on Larry King and he stated â Å“That I never saw anything like it before.â ? Seriously, here is a man who was in two tours in Vietnam and oversaw the cover up of the atrocities in Somalia and he's â Å“surprisedâ ??

So if he never saw anything like that before, I am sure he would be surprised. Doesn‘t that indicate to you that such conduct was uncommon in Vietnam?

I will recommend a book to you - SOLDIER by Anthony Herbert. He was the most decorated soldier in the US Army in the Korean War, and a brigade commander in Vietnam. His book is certainly biased, but does paint a different picture than Oliver Stone did of service conditions there.

By the way, I have talked to Vietnam veterans from such as a former Recon Marine who did three tours there that spanned all the way to Cambodia so I suggest that you do not imply that I do not have great respect for these people who were drafted or thrown into such a controversial conflict. He personally showed me things that he brought back from there and told me of how, as he put it, â Å“everything was ****ed up over there.â ?

And he admitted to committing war crimes?

Thirdly, I was not aware that American veterans came on this site, I always understood this as Army.ca as a Canadian military oriented site, if anyone was offended by my apparent "Anti-American statement" this was not my intent.

Hopefully this cleared things up.

It does, thanks. And you should always post as if the whole world is reading; this being the Internet you never know who is dropping by.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

We have at least one Vietnam vet who is a regular to this forum, Old Guy.