Author Topic: Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)  (Read 473109 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2011, 09:52:03 »
When one is under debt management, or bankruptcy, they typically have a lot of their affairs handled by a 3rd party. I fail to see why that isn't applicable in this case.

Why that is an oppressive and racist attitude!! My oh my!!  ;)

No one says anything because when we "white folk" say something, the "R" word is trotted out by the chiefs and their political stooges - the NDP and Liberals for the most part.
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Offline Strike

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2011, 10:11:19 »

So here's my 2C worth: Every time the Federal government sends money to a band council, they should also mail a notice to all the resident on reserve that would say: "Hi, we just provided your band council with  XXX $ - here is a copy of the draft or transfer confirmation - Just FYI."

Awesome idea!

I have no idea if this is already happening or what, but I think it would be good if the well-run Bands could provide guidance/assistance/expertise to ones that are having a hard time. There is no reason why the good ideas can't be used for the benefit of everyone, and I imagine that there are some issues that would be quite similar across the board.

Membertou band tried that several years ago without much luck.  It's a shame really, since this is a fairly rich band that makes their income through means that don't involve casinos or the government. (Well, not the government directly.  They've won a few government contracts, but this money certainly wasn't a hand-out.)
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Offline jasonf6

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2011, 11:17:15 »


CBC radio did a piece on Attiwapiskat just the other day. When the 3rd party manager was mentioned in an interview with one of the residents, the person became irate, and went off on a tangent about how they weren't children, and could handle their own affairs. Not exactly what's been shown however.


Ya, my next question would have been, "If you can handle your own affairs, where did the $90-million go and why are you asking for help?"  Okay boys, pack it up.  No story here.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2011, 11:55:03 »
Well run bands? There aren't that many.  Besides, from what I've seen the First Nations IMO are xenophobic - they resist what others suggest. It might be worth a shot but I wouldn't hold my breath.
You are right.....it will take years to change the attitude  from "you owe us" to "we can do this ourselves thank you" without the need for our "oppressive racist" rule. Education would be a good start.

94 million dollars was p!ssed away - no accountability - and the thieves should be jailed.

I don't know if I would call them xenophobic, but there is still a lot of hostilities between different tribes; (e.g) someone from tribe "X" runs into someone from tribe "Y" who in historical times was the enemy, expect a dust-up. So, even if some successful band did try to provide assistance, there is a good chance it would be rejected because they're from a different tribe.

You make a good point about education, it would be interesting to see the educational background of band/tribal councils and how much experience they have in leadership and financial dealings.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2011, 12:19:01 »
I think education of the general populace would go a lot further than better education of the leaders.

In my opinion, it's educating a generation or two of motivated youths that will turn things around. I saw an episode of Dragons Den where a young native woman's business was selling hand-made, high-quality moccasins. She used this business to employ women on reserves. Charity is never a long-term solution, but once again, opportunity is.

Warning: Armchair Leadership coming up...
If I were a band chief, I would be looking at guided hunting / fishing tours, trapping, creating quality hand-made products that people will want to buy such as a mocassins, gloves, hats, coats, etc... These could be sold off the reserve, and generate income for the people living on the reserve, and allow them to continue their way of life while being self-sustaining. They have a lot to offer people with unique skill-sets in these areas and other areas. There's no way, with some proper leadership and guidance, they couldn't be self-sustaining. They were self-sustaining long before they had any technology, there's no way they can't do it now.

EDIT: Of course, it would take some educated, motivated young entrepreneurs with the will to see that happen because they love their communities. Entrepreneurship, of course, is a form of a leadership in my opinion.

Here's the Dragons Den thing http://www.ammsa.com/publications/windspeaker/entrepreneur-gets-hand-dragons
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 12:30:24 by ballz »
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Offline Strike

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2011, 12:34:48 »

Warning: Armchair Leadership coming up...
If I were a band chief, I would be looking at guided hunting / fishing tours, trapping, creating quality hand-made products that people will want to buy such as a mocassins, gloves, hats, coats, etc... These could be sold off the reserve, and generate income for the people living on the reserve, and allow them to continue their way of life while being self-sustaining. They have a lot to offer people with unique skill-sets in these areas and other areas. There's no way, with some proper leadership and guidance, they couldn't be self-sustaining. They were self-sustaining long before they had any technology, there's no way they can't do it now.

Tack on to that a strong branding campaign (I don't know.  Turtle Parka company or some such thing) that emphasizes the quality of the workmanship using local textiles and all parts being made in Canada, and you could have yourself a pretty promising little business.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2011, 12:49:12 »
Or look at Kanewake, just off the island of Montreal.  They've become one of the world's premier sites for online gambling, exploiting the infrastructure they have available.  Islands in the carribean have made significant income from financial services.  Why couldn't Kanesatake offer similar services?

There are many options First Nations, Métis and Innu can examine; no need to limit themselves to moccasins and hunting.

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline foresterab

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2011, 12:50:56 »
I think education of the general populace would go a lot further than better education of the leaders.

In my opinion, it's educating a generation or two of motivated youths that will turn things around. I saw an episode of Dragons Den where a young native woman's business was selling hand-made, high-quality moccasins. She used this business to employ women on reserves. Charity is never a long-term solution, but once again, opportunity is.

I work in the natural resources field and have spent many years in aboriginal communities/reserves.  The best description was dealing with a group of First Nations in northern Alberta.
1st band - Crown owed us everything, we live in shacks, gimme gimme gimme.  To be fair this band had not signed treaty originally but had also turned down several other additional treaty offers from Canada.  Currently spends alot of money on lawyers.

2nd band - multi-million buisness empire based orignally off of on-reserve buisnesses and expanded off reserve.  Very xenophonbic and currently challanging court cases which forced them to accept members that previously lost native rights due to marrying europeans.  But buisnesses are run as buisnesses and band members, while offered jobs, are held to the same accountability as all other employees.

3rd band. - Didn't sign treaty 8 through the treaty commission running late and skipping them.  Administered for years under another First Nation and many fights over who gets what share of the pie...just recently became an independent reserve and signed treaty.  What's important here is that this band was closely related to the first two cases with infrastrurce similar to the first case...but the attitude was different.  Elders and band leadership had realized that the oldest members were dieing out but their own children were not potenially ready or qualified to take over..this is due to a whole mix of social failures, external experiences, and cultural breakdown.  As a result they were looking for grandchildren who had promise...not 20 year olds but grandkids in their 30's who a) worked b) had kids c) were responsible.  These have become the role models for the community as they are showing you can work like a "moonias (white guy)" and have respect for doing a job well on time yet still have kids in the community and speak the language/keep the culture.

Although geography has not blessed the 3rd band with the best location or available resources/infrastruce the attitude difference means that they are taking advantage of opportunities and have greatly expanded their economy.  Their not up to case #2 yet but left case #1 in the dust.  Education is part but attitude is equally important to have small buisnesses succeed.

Offline ballz

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2011, 13:01:26 »
Education is part but attitude is equally important to have small buisnesses succeed.

Absolutely... unfortunately we can't provide motivation, commitment, positive attitude, and a host of other qualities, all things that are very important to being a successful entrepreneur, but unfortunately can't be taught... something I've been trying to tell the Faculty of Business Administration for four years :not-again:
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Offline TN2IC

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Re: Warmington: Send the army to help Attawapiskat
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2011, 15:16:06 »
True enough, maybe operation isn't the word to use.  What would you call it? :)

COIN...  ;D

Offline GAP

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2011, 15:48:25 »
Wait a minute.....whoa.....

We are talking about communities located where? in the forest dummy.......

They are surrounded by trees, bunches and bunches of trees.......

simply use Stackwall Housing.

Cordwood construction (also called "cordwood masonry," "stackwall construction" or "stackwood construction") is a term used for a natural building method in which "cordwood" or short pieces of debarked tree are laid up crosswise with masonry or cob mixtures to build a wall.

Walls are usually constructed such that the pieces of wood are "proud" of (protrude from) the mortar by a small amount (an inch or less). Walls typically range between 12 and 24 inches thick, though in northern Canada, some walls are as much as 36 inches thick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwood_construction

Frequently Asked Questions About Cordwood Masonry (a.k.a Stackwall)
http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/faqs.htm

They have the materials, they have the labour...most of them are unemployed, now all they need is the will and some effort.....
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Offline foresterab

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2011, 16:06:59 »
In regards to cordwood housing:

taken from the same page as GAP used.

Although cordwood homes have been tested in -40F locations like Alberta, their thermal efficiency in any climate is below that of a purely cob house of comparable dimensions.[1] In frigid areas it is appropriate to either build a thicker 24-36 inch wall, or two separate super insulated walls. In predominantly wet areas, the outside walls can be plastered, smothering the cordwood ends from air and moisture, but this hides cordwood's attractive log ends. The quantity of labor relative to gaining a specific R value for cordwood is higher when compared to straw bale and stick frame construction. Funds saved in construction may need to be allocated for heating costs or longterm exterior maintenance.[citation needed] An organic, mortar-like cob creates less of an environmental impact because of the use of readily available mud and straw, whereas toxins emitted during the production of Portland cement are very harmful, albeit less tangible in the final product. Like many alternative building styles, the sustainability of cordwood construction is dependent upon materials and construction variables.

Following the Cordwood Conference in 2005 at Merrill, Wisconsin, a document was published to address best practices in cordwood construction and building code compliance.The document entitled Cordwood and the Code: A Building Permit Guide assists cordwood builders get the necessary code permits.[12]


So a couple of issues...more labour needed than for stick frame construction and needs to be expanded thicker than normal to account for the temperatures.  Extreme cold and masonary will be an issue due to heat differences if things are not done right.  It can be done but keep in mind we're dealing with an area of Ontario that has very small diameter trees so convential sawlog/log home local production isn't always possible hence flying in all materials or alternatives like you've proposed.  Not sure what would be needed for foundations on the houses either..

Something to consider from when I was working in N.Ontario.  Got told it's only been in the last 10? 15? years that bands have actually be allowed to harvest wood off their reserves and keep the funds locally instead of having them go to Ottawa.  For the more southern bands nearer to sawmills this has been an economic boom where they've traded raw logs for finished timber/OSB/$$$ but is not always an option. 

From what I remember of Ontario as well there is little provincial policy regarding wood harvest in that area as it is so hard to reforest/small wood/long growning times.  There may be a way to approve the reserve a harvesting permit but my fuzzy memory can't recall how offhand.  That being said a reasonable request for volume for a reasonable use would most likely be entertained especially given all the environmental background and inventory work done for the nearby diamond mines which would address much of the management issues.

Offline ballz

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2011, 16:45:00 »
Sounds like the Assembly of First Nations feels the same way as Spence WRT getting caught scamming people... shared with the usual caveats...

Attawapiskat chief says 'enough is enough'
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/06/attawapiskat-martin-afn.html?cmp=rss
Quote
The chief of the troubled Attawapiskat First Nation received a standing ovation at an Assembly of First Nations meeting in Ottawa Tuesday, telling her fellow leaders, "We’re not going to take it no more.”

A much longer article at the link.

Oh my f**k just watch the video.... this is ridiculous... these people have con-artist written all over them.

According to one of the journalists asking questions, the "elders" want third-party management back... at which point the Chief and the dude from the band council (I believe) decided no more comments were warranted.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2011, 22:11:05 »
On one of the other threads there was a discussion of a shelter made of prepreg concrete fabric; simply raise the form, wet the concrete paper and wait @ 24 hours for it to harden and cure. For that matter, a Mongolian Yurt is also inexpensive, protble and warm.

No, the problem isn't building materials or what sort of shelter is or is not possible (for $90 million, you could probably build an apartment building or a small suburban neighbourhood), but rather making sure the money is actually managed and spent in an open and effective manner. Maybe instead of giving the money to the band council, the cheques could be delivered to each person individually. Getting @ $8000/ year (according to the breakdown given in an earlier news story) would make each individual much better off than the situation today.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2011, 22:17:58 »
This is funny. The dysfunctional Indian chiefs calling in the dysfunctional UN to monitor the waste of a sovereign countries taxpayers dollars.

More BS at link.


Chiefs ask UN to weigh in on Attawapiskat

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/home/chiefs_ask_un_to_weigh_in_on_attawapiskat/1d550dfa

06/12/2011 6:39:33 PM
Andrea Janus
The Assembly of First Nations waded into the political firestorm over Attawapiskat on Tuesday, passing a unanimous resolution to ask the United Nations to monitor the federal government's response to a housing emergency on the reserve.
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2011, 22:20:07 »
The Assembly of First Nations waded into the political firestorm over Attawapiskat on Tuesday, passing a unanimous resolution to ask the United Nations to monitor the federal government's response to a housing emergency on the reserve.

 :not-again:
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2011, 22:21:03 »
This is funny. The dysfunctional Indian chiefs calling in the dysfunctional UN to monitor the waste of a sovereign countries taxpayers dollars.

More BS at link.


Chiefs ask UN to weigh in on Attawapiskat

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/home/chiefs_ask_un_to_weigh_in_on_attawapiskat/1d550dfa

06/12/2011 6:39:33 PM
Andrea Janus
The Assembly of First Nations waded into the political firestorm over Attawapiskat on Tuesday, passing a unanimous resolution to ask the United Nations to monitor the federal government's response to a housing emergency on the reserve.

Does this mean we'll get UN observers deployed to the reserve from such progressive nations as ...oh.....North Korea? or Iran? Nigeria? Rwanda? DRC? just to name a few...
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Offline 1984

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2011, 22:35:13 »
Does this mean we'll get UN observers deployed to the reserve from such progressive nations as ...oh.....North Korea? or Iran? Nigeria? Rwanda? DRC? just to name a few...

They just want someone to shoot at that can't shoot back.

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2011, 22:42:45 »
What I would like to see is what types of houses the council and band chief are living in.  Haven't heard anything about that yet.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2011, 22:45:14 »
According to their auditted financial statements Theresa Spence makes almost 70k a year
http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Consolidated-Schedule-of-Salaries-Honouraria-and-Travel-Expenditures.pdf

I'd say that would buy one hell of a tent in that neighbourhood...
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2011, 22:49:48 »
What I would like to see is what types of houses the council and band chief are living in.  Haven't heard anything about that yet.

Care to guess

http://maps.google.ca/maps?rlz=1T4RNRN_enCA434CA434&q=Attawapiskat&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=qOHeTqqqDYX40gHV8o2cBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CB8Q_AUoAg
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Offline Canadian.Trucker

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2011, 08:43:55 »
No, the problem isn't building materials or what sort of shelter is or is not possible (for $90 million, you could probably build an apartment building or a small suburban neighbourhood), but rather making sure the money is actually managed and spent in an open and effective manner. Maybe instead of giving the money to the band council, the cheques could be delivered to each person individually. Getting @ $8000/ year (according to the breakdown given in an earlier news story) would make each individual much better off than the situation today.
For some in the community you might be right, but there is a large drug problem currently in this community to include alcohol among other things.  I fear giving them a surge of $8,000 would just make things worse in the community because it's not enough money to buy a home, but it's more than enough to make yourself not feel any pain for a while.

What I would like to see is what types of houses the council and band chief are living in.  Haven't heard anything about that yet.
The council quite often live within the community, but you would throw up in your hat if you found out out that some Chiefs in Northern communities *cough* Pikangikum *cough*, own homes in Thunder Bay worth $1million+.  Not to say this Chief is of the same cloth, but I understand they don't live in meagre places.

According to their auditted financial statements Theresa Spence makes almost 70k a year
http://www.attawapiskat.org/content/uploads/2011-Consolidated-Schedule-of-Salaries-Honouraria-and-Travel-Expenditures.pdf

I'd say that would buy one hell of a tent in that neighbourhood...
If that's all she makes a year I'll eat my boots.  What is a listed salary and what they actually take in are two different things.  Corruption is rampant, because once again there is no accountability.

Overall you guys have brought up some good points, but you have to realize in many of these communities the feeling of "white man law doesn't apply to me" is felt.  They think we are responsible to take care of them and provide them with whatever they want, but they don't want us looking over their shoulder making sure they are being accountable with what they have.  There is still a deep feeling of "you stole our lands" and it permeates everything within their life.  Has the situation become dire and is there assistance needed?  Yes.  But it is not only the fault of the Chief and council of Attawapiskat, it's also the fault of the government for not realizing sooner that accountability was needed and that they should have been following up all along on the expenditure of money.

In the end this is a **** storm politically and it needs to be dealt with in a manner that might hurt and leave a bruise, but in the end we have to move forward instead of allowing this to carry on.  Regardless of the backlash happening from the media/opposition, the government has to see that if we let this go unchecked it's a cycle that is doomed to be repeated.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 13:21:14 by Mike Bobbitt »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2011, 09:07:03 »
Down here in Manitoba, the First Nation of Lake St Martin has been housed in various hotels in Winnipeg since their land flooded in May.

The site of the old radar station at Gypsumville was offered, but now concerns were raised about the amount of garter snakes that frequent the area.

PLUS - the chief didn't like who the government contracted to build the houses - the company the chief has a 60% interest in was not selected to build the houses.....

Am I missing something here? Anywhere else we call that a conflict of interest....don't we?
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2011, 09:14:41 »
Well garter snakes are dangerous Jim ::)
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Re: Call for CF to help First Nation (merged)
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 12:29:03 »
If that's all she makes a year I'll eat my boots.  What is a listed salary and what they actually take in are two different things.  Corruption is rampant, because once again there is no accountability.

I agree, but I can't prove that (hopefully the government will). But I can prove 70k/year alone is a ridiculously high amount for leading a town of <2000 people.

As seen here, she's making way more money than the mayor's of towns with 20,000+ people, about 2.5 times as much as the mayor of Corner Brook, NL (Corner Brook, Newfoundland, has 20,083 people, but its mayor only makes $27,032.)

http://www.yukon-news.com/news/14433/
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller