# Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]



## Quirky (24 Jan 2022)

What in the truck is going on here.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2022)

I thought so


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## dimsum (25 Jan 2022)

Somewhat related:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485630223995572233


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## PuckChaser (25 Jan 2022)

You're going to cite an Antifa Twitter page as a credible source about the protest organizers? Come on now.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Jan 2022)

The


daftandbarmy said:


> I thought so
> 
> View attachment 68241


The Border Mandate was the spark. What gave it the legs is that it is an Anti All Mandates, anti trudeau government protest. There's thousands of people in cars and pickups that are also part of this. So, this poster and her partner, are a week late with a dated false opinion. They say "none of these idiots are affected by the vaccine mandates." They are 100% wrong. Everyone in Canada is affected by the mandates. They totally missed the point of the protest. It is called The Freedom Convoy. Not the Cross Border Unvaxed Trucker Mandate protest.
The information is out there. One only needs to look for it


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## dimsum (25 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You're going to cite an Antifa Twitter page as a credible source about the protest organizers? Come on now.


It's a video.  Play it.

Did he or did he not say those words that are printed up top?


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## Jarnhamar (25 Jan 2022)

Has the Prime Minister called the truckers misogynist anti-science racists yet?


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## PuckChaser (25 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> It's a video.  Play it.
> 
> Did he or did he not say those words that are printed up top?


So what? Is this some kind of garbage gotcha moment where Jan 6 is a boogeyman? I know what you want to hear, but thankfully Freedom of Expression is the only charter right COVID hasn't spit on yet.


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## Remius (25 Jan 2022)

GoFundMe confirms trucker freedom convoy funds being held until ‘clear plan’ is revealed  | Globalnews.ca
					

The convoy of truckers rolled through Regina Monday night and was greeted by supporters who braved the cold weather to welcome them to town.




					globalnews.ca
				




Apparently the organiser has asked people to send her interact e transfers to her personal account now.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> GoFundMe confirms trucker freedom convoy funds being held until ‘clear plan’ is revealed  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The convoy of truckers rolled through Regina Monday night and was greeted by supporters who braved the cold weather to welcome them to town.
> ...


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## mariomike (25 Jan 2022)

"Freedom" in a yellow star.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486034333659893762


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## RangerRay (25 Jan 2022)

Great. Another “yellow vest” gong show.   At least the original Yellow Vest protest originally had a good point before all the cranks attached themselves to it like barnacles.  This one just sounds like a crank-fest right from the get-go.


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## mariomike (25 Jan 2022)

brihard said:


> The “United we roll” protest was a flash in the pan that achieved nothing- just an angsty Western alienation tantrum. I see no reason to think this will be different.



Memories of  "United we roll".









						United We Roll convoy organizer denies allegations he ran off with the GoFundMe cash  | Globalnews.ca
					

Supporters of the United We Roll convoy have called the disbursement and handling of the crowdfunding account into question.




					globalnews.ca


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> "Freedom" in a yellow star.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486034333659893762


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## lenaitch (25 Jan 2022)

The folks organizing the truck rally might be trying to run a 'clean' event, but they might not be able to control who attaches themselves to it, nor distance themselves from them if things go sideways.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news


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## FSTO (26 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I thought so
> 
> View attachment 68241


Actually most of the Freedom Semi Tractors (not towing a trailer) had sleepers on them. I met the convoy at Oak Lake MB and the last ones were leaving Virden when I got there. There were also lots of other vehicles intermixed with the convoy due to heading east at the same time.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'd call it a boogeyman if the guy didn't outright say it.  It's a direct quote.  It wasn't clipped or made to sound like he was saying something else.
> 
> "We'll all go to Parliament and show them what's what" would make Jan 6 look like a boogeyman.  This is one step away from the Bond villain telling him what they are (well, _someone should be_) planning on doing.
> 
> I'm not law enforcement, but it sounds an awful lot like a threat.


It sounds like the hyperbolic language you hear when a bunch of pissed off people get together and talk. You also cut the quote off to support your narrative. He went on to say "Not from our guys though, but from somebody. I'd like to see that." (paraphrase)

That is not a threat.

The website for this convoy is almost at 600,000 signed up members. Last estimate from a couple of days ago for participants was 500,000 and growing fast. Support is in the millions with best wishes from the Netherlands, Slovenia, Poland and many other countries. American truckers have been coming north to help. The go fund me is currently around $4.5 million. 

And you decide to zero in on this one person as an example as what these millions of Canadians, that are participating and supporting this movement are really all about. Millions of Canadians who are fearful of what this PM is going to do, where he's taking us and what our country will look like when he's done. What they can afford for the next meal or whether they'll have a roof over their heads. Zero compassion for your fellow Canadians because of one quote. 

While I'm here, let's dispell your other canard about special interests stealing the donations and laughing about it. You can read how wrong you were about it straight from the horses mouth. BTW, your particular bent on this was started by none other than Gerald Butts on Twitter and good little communists are trying to make it stick.


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## Misses muffett (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You've been coming at me from the wrong angle all along. All I have been doing is reporting what I see. I don't live in Ottawa. So I really don't care at all what happens to commuters. I'm also not jaded enough to think trudeau will even look at it. I am extremely well versed in trucks and mayhem, living in the busiest cross border town in North America. I simply post the info I see on their website. Have all the opinions you want, but I really have no dog in this fight, other than wishing them well for exercising their rights. Whether you believe what I post or not, is immaterial to me. You don't want to spend time and research it before giving your opinion? Go for it. All I am doing is posting what they are doing, from their website.. Not arguing about it.


I have two dogs 🐕🐕


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## Misses muffett (26 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Darwin is doing his part.


Darwins dead


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

And 500k participants…

The convoy is expected in Arnprior on Friday.  They expect three to four hundred trucks.  While certainly not an insignificant number by any means I’m not sure how they are able to fit that many people in them.


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## Haggis (26 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> And 500k participants…
> 
> The convoy is expected in Arnprior on Friday.  They expect three to four hundred trucks.  While certainly not an insignificant number by any means I’m not sure how they are able to fit that many people in them.


Ask the traffickers along the Texas/Mexico border how many people you can fit in a 53' trailer.


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Ask the traffickers along the Texas/Mexico border how many people you can fit in a 53' trailer.


Should be nice and frozen when they all get there.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2022)

[/QUOTE]





Remius said:


> And 500k participants…
> 
> The convoy is expected in Arnprior on Friday.


Friday morning or Friday night?


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## dimsum (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> It sounds like the hyperbolic language you hear when a bunch of pissed off people get together and talk. You also cut the quote off to support your narrative. He went on to say "Not from our guys though, but from somebody. I'd like to see that." (paraphrase)
> 
> That is not a threat.


How many other trucking protests are going to Ottawa, exactly?  And even if they were speaking about another trucker, that's _still_ one of them inciting someone to try to ram Parliament.

Also, even if it was just "locker room talk hyperbolic language", they are recording it.  C'mon - in the age of social media, did they seriously think that people would see that and think "oh they're just pissed off and they're talking - they can't be serious"?  People are _not_ supposed to do that because they can be taken out of context.  

In this case, I'm not sure what other context they can be taken in - that guy is pretty explicit in what he wants "someone" to do.  I'm pretty sure that once they recorded it, someone was thinking "oh crap - hopefully no one sees this."




Fishbone Jones said:


> While I'm here, let's dispell your other canard about special interests stealing the donations and laughing about it. You can read how wrong you were about it straight from the horses mouth. BTW, your particular bent on this was started by none other than Gerald Butts on Twitter and good little communists are trying to make it stick.


Remius already mentioned it it so I won't talk about trusting the "oh yeah we totally have it in hand" line on FB, linked to a Protonmail account which is specifically designed to be anonymous.  

I'm more concerned that she never mentions who the accountants and lawyers are, or what firm they work for (or working for themselves, etc).  So how are the supporters supposed to check whether or not she's lying?  If she is so sure of their support, she would loudly be saying "I am working with XYZ accountant and ABC lawyers to ensure that the money gets to where it's needed."  The fact that they don't is _yet_ another red flag.


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## PMedMoe (26 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The folks organizing the truck rally might be trying to run a 'clean' event, but they might not be able to control who attaches themselves to it, nor distance themselves from them if things go sideways.



And on that note, here's what Jason LaFace (the convoy's main organizer in Ontario and the first president of the PPC's Sudbury riding association) said: "We have a group of constitutional lawyers that have been working with our team," he said. "We're getting the rest of our signatures and we're having them compel the government to dissolve government."

Are these people insane?  Do they think they'll get to Ottawa and the government will just say "Okay, you're right, we quit."?

Convoy's message muddies closer it gets to capital


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## mariomike (26 Jan 2022)

Saw this in The Beaverton. Yes, it is satire. But, there may - or may not - be an element of truth to it.



> Unvaccinated truckers demand Canada's government change US government's rules on unvaccinated truckers.



Pretty hard to win Canadian hearts and minds with a slow-rolling blockade creating severe traffic congestion, and fear of food shortages.



> The folks organizing the truck rally might be trying to run a 'clean' event, but they might not be able to control who attaches themselves to it, nor distance themselves from them if things go sideways.



Teamsters Canada and the Canadian Trucking Association made sure to publicly distance themselves.

As for their Gofundme,


> Well, you pays your money, you takes your chances!





> The “United we roll” protest was a flash in the pan that achieved nothing- just an angsty Western alienation _tantrum_. I see no reason to think this will be different.



A veiled WEXIT / Maverick protest?


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## daftandbarmy (26 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Saw this in The Beaverton. Yes, it is satire. But, there may - or may not - be an element of truth to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WEXIT?

Meanwhile, in BC


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## mariomike (26 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Convoy's message muddies closer it gets to capital





> LaFace asked before shifting his argument to perceived oppression and comparing mask mandates to living in Nazi Germany.





> Said Jason LaFace, the convoy's main organizer in Ontario.



That's interesting, considering I live in a town where the mayor was scolded for daring to lower his mask in a park.



> Well well well, talk about leading by example look at who it is. The mayor himself ignoring social distancing rules and treating PPE like it's a joke.


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> And on that note, here's what Jason LaFace (the convoy's main organizer in Ontario and the first president of the PPC's Sudbury riding association) said: "We have a group of constitutional lawyers that have been working with our team," he said. "We're getting the rest of our signatures and we're having them compel the government to dissolve government."
> 
> Are these people insane?  Do they think they'll get to Ottawa and the government will just say "Okay, you're right, we quit."?
> 
> Convoy's message muddies closer it gets to capital


The truck convoy is now a crazy train.


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## Good2Golf (26 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The truck convoy is now a crazy train.


Well it kind of had to change tracks once the US restricted crossborder truckers to vaccinated-only.


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## PMedMoe (26 Jan 2022)

Wow, this Jason LaFace seems like a real winner.  

BigNickelEnergy - Twitter feed


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## Haggis (26 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The truck convoy is now a crazy train.


I will be surprised if they make it into Ottawa and even more so if they get to Parliament Hill.


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> I will be surprised if they make it into Ottawa and even more so if they get to Parliament Hill.


Low of minus 23 on Saturday.  The cold is always a factor when it comes to protests in Ottawa.  But we’ll see.  I can’t see any real reason they would be denied the chance to protest on the hill unless they forgot to file their permit.


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## dimsum (26 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well it kind of had to change tracks once the US restricted crossborder truckers to vaccinated-only.


The US didn't just pull a fast one though - that was announced long ago.  So it's not really "change tracks", more "press on regardless".



Remius said:


> Low of minus 23 on Saturday.  The cold is always a factor when it comes to protests in Ottawa.  But we’ll see.  I can’t see any real reason they would be denied the chance to protest on the hill unless they forgot to file their permit.


I'm just gonna put it out there and suggest they didn't have a permit in the first place.  I'm not sure how long it takes for those things but given the speed at which this all came about, I doubt the City of Ottawa (or the Fed Gov, I guess) would have such a quick turnaround for something like this.

It's also a perfect "out" - organizers can suddenly drop the protest, say something like "out of safety concerns for the truckers, yadayada... we won't continue as planned", and keep the money.


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## mariomike (26 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Wow, this Jason LaFace seems like a real winner.
> 
> BigNickelEnergy - Twitter feed



Sounds like they want to "Let 'er rip!"



> LaFace asked before shifting his argument to perceived oppression and comparing mask mandates to living in Nazi Germany.





> Said Jason LaFace, the convoy's main organizer in Ontario.


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> The US didn't just pull a fast one though - that was announced long ago.  So it's not really "change tracks", more "press on regardless".
> 
> 
> I'm just gonna put it out there and suggest they didn't have a permit in the first place.  I'm not sure how long it takes for those things but given the speed at which this all came about, I doubt the City of Ottawa (or the Fed Gov, I guess) would have such a quick turnaround for something like this.
> ...


Or they will do like every other protest group that forgets to file or ask for a permit and claim they were denied the right to protest.  I’ve seen that a few times.



			http://hill-colline.parl.ca/en/
		


It can be processed in 10 business days or so.  Schedule permitting.  I doubt anything is planned to conflict with that day.  As mentioned, downtown is ghost town most Saturdays at this time of the year.


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## lenaitch (26 Jan 2022)

_"The campaign’s GoFundMe description originally claimed the funds would be disbursed to truckers to cover the cost of fuel for truck drivers taking part in the convoy, but on Sunday that was changed to state an arrangement was made with GoFundMe to send the money directly to a bulk fuel supplier and not the organizers, and that excess funds would be donated to a veteran’s organization."_









						Confusion after GoFundMe freezes $5 million fundraiser for truck protesters
					

A company spokesperson said they paused the campaign in order to give organizers time to plan the distribution of funds




					nationalpost.com


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## mariomike (26 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> _, and that excess funds would be donated to a veteran’s organization."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Many to choose from. 


			veterans organizations canada - Google Search
		


Or, perhaps create a new one.





						Apply to become a registered charity - Canada.ca
					






					www.canada.ca


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> _"The campaign’s GoFundMe description originally claimed the funds would be disbursed to truckers to cover the cost of fuel for truck drivers taking part in the convoy, but on Sunday that was changed to state an arrangement was made with GoFundMe to send the money directly to a bulk fuel supplier and not the organizers, and that excess funds would be donated to a veteran’s organization."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like they weren’t exactly prepared or that they had no real plan.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2022)

The GoFundMe freeze was dropped. The organization has met the GFM concerns. The current total puts it close to 6 million.  $6,000,000 and climbing is a pretty amazing figure for grass roots organizations, hell, any organization. All given by Mom & Pop and their neighbors. No big corporate donations. Just hard working everyday people who think this government is out of control. And that's a lot of people.


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The GoFundMe freeze was dropped. The organization has met the GFM concerns. The current total puts it close to 6 million.  $6,000,000 and climbing is a pretty amazing figure for grass roots organizations, hell, any organization. All given by Mom & Pop and their neighbors. No big corporate donations. Just hard working everyday people who think this government is out of control. And that's a lot of people.


Because GFM is the one directing the funds now.  It is an impressive tally to be certain.


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## PMedMoe (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The GoFundMe freeze was dropped. The organization has met the GFM concerns. The current total puts it close to 6 million.  $6,000,000 and climbing is a pretty amazing figure for grass roots organizations, hell, any organization. All given by Mom & Pop and their neighbors. No big corporate donations.



Yeah, too bad they couldn't have donated to something worthwhile, like local Foodbanks, animal shelters, homeless shelters.... 

With that kind of money, they could feed a lot of people.


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## Good2Golf (26 Jan 2022)

Imagine if that had gone towards more direct means to work against the armour of Team Justin.  The effect of all that investment by a majority of good, hard working folk will most certainaly be…


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## Halifax Tar (26 Jan 2022)

I dont think there anyone can deny people are unhappy with our current Gov... The problem is, what is the viable alternative ?


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## dimsum (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The GoFundMe freeze was dropped. The organization has met the GFM concerns. The current total puts it close to 6 million.  $6,000,000 and climbing is a pretty amazing figure for grass roots organizations, hell, any organization. All given by Mom & Pop and their neighbors. No big corporate donations. Just hard working everyday people who think this government is out of control. And that's a lot of people.


It's an impressive amount, but I'd be shocked if there aren't lots of smaller anonymous donations made by corporate (or other) players.  I can't think of lots of Mom and Pops that have $10k or so just burning a hole in their pockets.

It's not like they get receipts or anything.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Imagine if that had gone towards more direct means to work against the armour of Team Justin.  The effect of all that investment by a majority of good, hard working folk will most certainaly be…
> View attachment 68259


Yes, I think you're right. Had this money gone to an opposing political party, it would just disappear. The same attacks in the House would continue as normal, with a bunch of politicians nobody listens to and the sitting party that just won't answer the questions anyway.

With the convoy, people can see the fruits of their donations. They empathize with the truckers and feel a kindred spirit that they don't get from politics or politicians. They can see, join in and participate, as equals, as millions of other Canadians are doing. "We are mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore." If these measures don't yield results, I'm guessing civil disobedience will be the next step. People will just throw off their masks and move into a position they feel comfortable with. Mandates, etc will become unenforceable due to the amount of people saying "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" But I have no crystal ball, just an opinion.


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## Good2Golf (26 Jan 2022)

Trudeau still ‘owns’ 416/905 and 514/450 and arguably a chunk of 604…so until that changes…

I say let them own the deficit and skyrocketing inflation for the next couple of years.  We’re pretty much past the point that Harper can be blamed for everything, so we’ll have to hope that alternatives think and plan properly for 23/24.


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## SeaKingTacco (26 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Trudeau still ‘owns’ 416/905 and 514/450 and arguably a chunk of 604…so until that changes…
> 
> I say let them own the deficit and skyrocketing inflation for the next couple of years.  We’re pretty much past the point that Harper can be blamed for everything, so we’ll have to hope that alternatives think and plan properly for 23/24.


It is never too late to blame Harper for everything.

Do you know that he caused the Great Flood? True story…


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## Remius (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yes, I think you're right. Had this money gone to an opposing political party, it would just disappear. The same attacks in the House would continue as normal, with a bunch of politicians nobody listens to and the sitting party that just won't answer the questions anyway.
> 
> With the convoy, people can see the fruits of their donations. They empathize with the truckers and feel a kindred spirit that they don't get from politics or politicians. They can see, join in and participate, as equals, as millions of other Canadians are doing. "We are mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore." If these measures don't yield results, I'm guessing civil disobedience will be the next step. People will just throw off their masks and move into a position they feel comfortable with. Mandates, etc will become unenforceable due to the amount of people saying "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" But I have no crystal ball, just an opinion.


Sounds good in theory but will be out of the news cycle in about 48hrs after. 

But that 5 to 10 percent sure are a loud bunch.


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## PMedMoe (26 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The article is a tad dated, Nov 21, but not dated enough that it isn't topical.
> 
> From The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is among the world's oldest and best-known general medical journals.



It is NOT written by The Lancet, it is a letter to The Lancet by Dr. Gunter Kampf.  Huge difference.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Wait?!   Are these the same Mom and Pop shops/folks that you have previously stated are horribly broke because of lockdowns, mandates, Masks, etc??   Guess things aren't that bad....


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> It's an impressive amount, but I'd be shocked if there aren't lots of smaller anonymous donations made by corporate (or other) players.  I can't think of lots of Mom and Pops that have $10k or so just burning a hole in their pockets.
> 
> It's not like they get receipts or anything.


Out of the top 100 donations, there are a few corporate donations of $2-15,000. They are far outweighed though by private and anonymous donations in the same category. The amount of the other private donations are in the range of approx $10-100. I'm not going through a list of over 70.5K names to see who gave what. So yes there are corporate donors, but their numbers aren't even close. I'm going to guess less than 1%.

Lots of people donate to all kinds of things without worrying about tax receipts. Some things are more important that looking for a tax break.


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## Halifax Tar (26 Jan 2022)

Why cant the Truckers have corporate donations ?


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Why cant the Truckers have corporate donations ?


They can. There is no reason why not.

As an aside, the numbers of donors, in the last hour, have gone from 70.5K to 71K and donations approx $25 - 30,000.


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## Kilted (26 Jan 2022)

I saw a post on Facebook comparing the truckers in this protest to the Highway of Hero's. Really hope they don't include the war memorial as part of their protest.


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## QV (26 Jan 2022)

Jordan Peterson interviews one of the original signatories of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms where they discuss the constitutional crisis unfolding in Canada right now.


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## lenaitch (26 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Or, perhaps create a new one.


Best be quick.  It takes a minimum of six months (don't know if Covid has effected that) if all your ducks are in order.  Longer if you choose to encorporate first.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Jan 2022)




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## FSTO (26 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> It's an impressive amount, but I'd be shocked if there aren't lots of smaller anonymous donations made by corporate (or other) players.  I can't think of lots of Mom and Pops that have $10k or so just burning a hole in their pockets.
> 
> It's not like they get receipts or anything.


The Brother-in-Law of the leader of the NDP donated 13K to the cause...........He is now asking for his money back....hmmm.


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## SeaKingTacco (26 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> The Brother-in-Law of the leader of the NDP donated 13K to the cause...........He is now asking for his money back....hmmm.


Yeah. I will bet the next family get together will be…awkward.


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## Kilted (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> Jordan Peterson interviews one of the original signatories of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms where they discuss the constitutional crisis unfolding in Canada right now.


What constitutional crisis? The one thing that has become very clear to me is that very few people understand our constitution. Charter rights are not absolute, they are all subject to reasonable limits.


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## QV (27 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> What constitutional crisis? The one thing that has become very clear to me is that very few people understand our constitution. Charter rights are not absolute, they are all subject to reasonable limits.


Why don’t you try listening to the interview, they talk directly about the limits. Brian Peckford was one of the original signatories on the Charter, he is a plank owner of our charter.


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## Booter (27 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yeah. I will bet the next family get together will be…awkward.


last week his wife “didn’t know”they can’t accept gifts, this week the brother in law “didn’t know” all the information. 

Nobody in his family knows anything. That’s all.


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## Remius (27 Jan 2022)

Who cares what his brother in law does.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Who cares what his brother in law does.


This.....


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## lenaitch (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> Why don’t you try listening to the interview, they talk directly about the limits. Brian Peckford was one of the original signatories on the Charter, he is a plank owner of our charter.


That and $1.50 buys you a coffee.  I'm not sure mere mortality compared to the other signatories gives him any particular gravitas.

He supports the PPC if that suits anyone's fancy.


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## QV (27 Jan 2022)

And…3…2…1… time to try and discredit those whom you disagree with.

Brian Peckford’s contributions to this country, including his role in negotiating what is now our Charter, more than qualifies him on this subject. Only unbelievably dismissive arrogance would suggest otherwise.


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## PMedMoe (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> Jordan Peterson interviews one of the original signatories of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms where they discuss the constitutional crisis unfolding in Canada right now.



This Jordan Peterson? No thanks, I have enough word salad.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> And…3…2…1… time to try and discredit those whom you disagree with.
> 
> Brian Peckford’s contributions to this country, including his role in negotiating what is now our Charter, more than qualifies him on this subject. Only unbelievably dismissive arrogance would suggest otherwise.


You mean like you would if he supported stricter measures to fight covid???


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## FSTO (27 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> What constitutional crisis? The one thing that has become very clear to me is that very few people understand our constitution. Charter rights are not absolute, they are all subject to reasonable limits.


I have yet to hear one ex-pat Canadian who is a celebrity in the US who can even get the basics of our political system right when they are talking to Americans. Doesn't matter if they are left wing (Seth Rogan) or right wing (Jordan Peterson).

Come to think of it, I have a feeling that over half of our country think that our system is the same as the US.


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## Altair (27 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> I have yet to hear one ex-pat Canadian who is a celebrity in the US who can even get the basics of our political system right when they are talking to Americans. Doesn't matter if they are left wing (Seth Rogan) or right wing (Jordan Peterson).
> 
> Come to think of it, I have a feeling that over half of our country think that our system is the same as the US.


The right to remain silent is always a funny one to me.

I plead the 5th always gets a laugh out of me. Now if someone says section 13 of the charter I get that I'm talking to someone with at least a basic grasp how things work in  Canada


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2022)

Altair said:


> ... I plead the 5th always gets a laugh out of me ...


Shows how much mainstream entertainment media feeds some folks' understanding, for sure.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Jan 2022)

Altair said:


> The right to remain silent is always a funny one to me.
> 
> I plead the 5th always gets a laugh out of me. Now if someone says section 13 of the charter I get that I'm talking to someone with at least a basic grasp how things work in  Canada



For me is our colloquial adoption of American _"free speech"_... Always drives me nuts.


----------



## Kilted (27 Jan 2022)

Altair said:


> The right to remain silent is always a funny one to me.
> 
> I plead the 5th always gets a laugh out of me. Now if someone says section 13 of the charter I get that I'm talking to someone with at least a basic grasp how things work in  Canada


11c would actually be more appropriate.


----------



## Altair (27 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> 11c would actually be more appropriate.


Or section 7.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> For me is our colloquial adoption of American _"free speech"_... Always drives me nuts.



If you have to say it, you probably don't really have it anyways.

You know, like any country with the words 'United', or 'People's Democratic Republic' as part of its name


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> If you have to say it, you probably don't really have it anyways.
> 
> You know, like any country with the words 'United', or 'People's Democratic Republic' as part of its name



Bon point mon ami


----------



## lenaitch (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> And…3…2…1… time to try and discredit those whom you disagree with.
> 
> Brian Peckford’s contributions to this country, including his role in negotiating what is now our Charter, more than qualifies him on this subject. Only unbelievably dismissive arrogance would suggest otherwise.


Not being dismissive or trying to discredit- just offering some context.  He has as much right to say his piece as anyone else, and be judged by what he says and the company he keeps now.  Same with Jordan Peterson; although it would help if I understood what he is saying half the time.

I did close protection for him once and found him to be an arrogant ego on legs, so perhaps that is clouding my view.


----------



## QV (27 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> I have yet to hear one ex-pat Canadian who is a celebrity in the US who can even get the basics of our political system right when they are talking to Americans. Doesn't matter if they are left wing (Seth Rogan) or right wing (Jordan Peterson).
> 
> Come to think of it, I have a feeling that over half of our country think that our system is the same as the US.


Jordan Peterson is the platform, Brian Peckford is the voice.


----------



## lenaitch (27 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> I have yet to hear one ex-pat Canadian who is a celebrity in the US who can even get the basics of our political system right when they are talking to Americans. Doesn't matter if they are left wing (Seth Rogan) or right wing (Jordan Peterson).
> 
> Come to think of it, I have a feeling that over half of our country think that our system is the same as the US.


I often wonder why we/the media give any particular attention to media or sports celebrities on matters that are out of their lane.  No doubt they have views, and some seem particularly engaged in certain topics, but to think somebody who is famous for being famous automatically has knowledgeable insight on complex issues strikes me as odd.


----------



## PMedMoe (27 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I often wonder why we/the media give any particular attention to media or sports celebrities on matters that are out of their lane.  No doubt they have views, and some seem particularly engaged in certain topics, but to think somebody who is famous for being famous automatically has knowledgeable insight on complex issues strikes me as odd.



Yep. Like when actors, athletes, etc have an _opinion_ on something political (or whatever), everyone yells at them to "stay in their lane".  Not sure why this should be any different.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (27 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I often wonder why we/the media give any particular attention to media or sports celebrities on matters that are out of their lane.  No doubt they have views, and some seem particularly engaged in certain topics, but to think somebody who is famous for being famous automatically has knowledgeable insight on complex issues strikes me as odd.


Leonardo DiCaprio has entered the chat…


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Leonardo DiCaprio has entered the chat…


Jenny McCarthy-Wallberg joins DiCaprio in the chat:


----------



## Remius (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> And…3…2…1… time to try and discredit those whom you disagree with.
> 
> Brian Peckford’s contributions to this country, including his role in negotiating what is now our Charter, more than qualifies him on this subject. Only unbelievably dismissive arrogance would suggest otherwise.


Ah so would Jean Chrétien then be ok in your books on the subject?  Since he was the architect of said charter and négociations?


----------



## dimsum (27 Jan 2022)

Classic.


> THUNDER BAY – A convoy protesting COVID-19 restrictions headed to Ottawa made an overnight stop in the Thunder Bay area.
> 
> Organizers refused to speak with local media and when asked, threatened reporters with trespassing charges, on land they did not own, after calling the reporters “dirty communists” and telling them to “go find a new country” in a verbal confrontation.





> Protest convoy makes stop in Thunder Bay
> 
> 
> Read the full story and comment on Tbnewswatch.com
> ...


----------



## Remius (27 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Classic.


I expect it will escalate.  I don’t put much past the crazies that joined them.


----------



## QV (27 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah so would Jean Chrétien then be ok in your books on the subject?  Since he was the architect of said charter and négociations?


In case you missed it, during this entire pandemic I've advocated for listening to subject matter experts in the various fields. It is the censorship or attempts at discrediting those SMEs opposing the official government position that I've been pointing out all along.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2022)

QV said:


> Jordan Peterson is the platform vehicle where he holds the steering wheel, like other interviewers, Brian Peckford is the voice.


FTFY


----------



## Remius (27 Jan 2022)

And who discredited him?  It was pointed out that being a signatory does not make him an expert on constitutional law.  He’s a politician like all others.  Doesn’t make him an expert.  Otherwise we’ll be labelling a lot of expert titles on people we know are not.


----------



## Haggis (27 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> He’s a politician like all others.  Doesn’t make him an expert.


Some politicians hold expert level qualifications in certain fields.  Snowboarding, for example.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jan 2022)

Looks like a certain leader in Ottawa is self-isolating for 5 days. Excellent timing, he's going to miss all the big trucks.


----------



## PMedMoe (27 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a certain leader in Ottawa is self-isolating for 5 days. Excellent timing, he's going to miss all the big trucks.


Aren't they staying until the mandates are removed and/or the government is "dissolved"?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (27 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> . . .   It was pointed out that being a signatory does not make him an expert on constitutional law.  He’s a politician like all others.  Doesn’t make him an expert.  Otherwise we’ll be labelling a lot of expert titles on people we know are not.



While many politicians come from the ranks of the legal profession (and slink back after they've given up courting the electorate's votes), Mr. Peckford is not one of them.  His university credential is in education and prior to entering politics, he was a high school teacher (though probably not at as exclusive a school as the one where another first minister worked; you don't find that kind of place around the bay).  Other than self-proclaiming himself "The Great Negotiator", I suppose he may have gained some expertise in greenhouse structures to grow tomatoes in Newfoundland.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Aren't they staying until the mandates are removed and/or the government is "dissolved"?


So far, some say until all mandates are removed.


----------



## mariomike (27 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Aren't they staying until the mandates are removed and/or the government is "dissolved"?





> It’s about the mandate…. We’re done with mandates.”





> Said James Bauder, founder of the Canada Unity Foundation, one of the groups that is organizing the “Freedom Convoy 2022.”


Let it rip!?


----------



## Kilted (27 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a certain leader in Ottawa is self-isolating for 5 days. Excellent timing, he's going to miss all the big trucks.


If this actually ends up being as big as they say it is, it wouldn't surprise me if parliament doesn't sit at all next week. 

You may get some people who stay for weeks, but I'm sure that you will see the number steadily decrease as time goes on. From what I understand they are also protesting Provincial restrictions. My main thoughts on this is that way should any Province care what's happening in Ottawa, most of don't particularly like Ottawa. 

Either way, I'm glad I don't live in Ottawa right.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (27 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> If this actually ends up being as big as they say it is, it wouldn't surprise me if parliament doesn't sit at all next week.
> 
> You may get some people who stay for weeks, but I'm sure that you will see the number steadily decrease as time goes on. From what I understand they are also protesting Provincial restrictions. My main thoughts on this is that way should any Province care what's happening in Ottawa, most of don't particularly like Ottawa.
> 
> Either way, I'm glad I don't live in Ottawa right


Those of us out in the “sticks” (ie not Ottawa/Toronto) are expected to endure nearly daily protests/road blockades on the subject of native rights, racism in general, logging, pipelines, any kind of fossil fuels, climate change, homelessness and, of course vaccines.

Seems only fair that the politicians and bureaucrats that bungle these files daily should get to share in some of the fun…


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Jan 2022)

Except they won’t feel the impact themselves -heck, they’ll get police escorts if they’re important enough…

#watchingthecommoncitizensfromonhigh


----------



## mariomike (27 Jan 2022)

> Except they won’t feel the impact themselves -heck, they’ll get police escorts if they’re important enough…



For mere mortals in need of help...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486728745339654146


----------



## Furniture (27 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> If this actually ends up being as big as they say it is, it wouldn't surprise me if parliament doesn't sit at all next week.
> 
> You may get some people who stay for weeks, but I'm sure that you will see the number steadily decrease as time goes on. From what I understand they are also protesting Provincial restrictions. My main thoughts on this is that way should any Province care what's happening in Ottawa, most of don't particularly like Ottawa.
> 
> Either way, I'm glad I don't live in Ottawa right.


I suspect most Ottawa residents won't notice the protest at all, most people who work downtown are working from home.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jan 2022)




----------



## Spencer100 (27 Jan 2022)




----------



## PMedMoe (27 Jan 2022)

So now we're just posting videos with no commentary?  Time to start a new thread: "Freedom Convoy: Love it or Hate it?"


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jan 2022)

FluTruxClan, for the win!


----------



## dimsum (27 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> So now we're just posting videos with no commentary?  Time to start a new thread: "Freedom Convoy: Love it or Hate it?"


I'm pretty sure I can guess how that's gonna go.


----------



## PMedMoe (27 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'm pretty sure I can guess how that's gonna go.


Agreed, but at least then I can ignore it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> So now we're just posting videos with no commentary?  Time to start a new thread: "Freedom Convoy: Love it or Hate it?"


I was letting people take their own opinions from the video, I can always give mine. I also find it highly convenient that JT suddenly has Covid symptoms and must isolate, likley far from Ottawa where the fumes and vibrations of the trucks won't upset the equilibrium of his bubble.


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Jan 2022)

If something is getting up your nose, nothing stops you from just ignoring it.  Especially if you think it doesn't amount to much.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jan 2022)

Meanwhile the other 99.5 % of Canadians carry on....


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If something is getting up your nose, nothing stops you from just ignoring it.  Especially if you think it doesn't amount to much.


Sorry Brad, but its just too much fun to make jokes at some bubble boys expense. 

"We're strong and you're weak and we'll always be strong and you'll always be w......oh wait, pull over, I gotta pee......"


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Some politicians hold expert level qualifications in certain fields.  Snowboarding, for example.


Or surfboarding?


----------



## PMedMoe (27 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If something is getting up your nose, nothing stops you from just ignoring it.  Especially if you think it doesn't amount to much.


If I just want to watch videos, I can go to YouTube, but thanks for that insightful information!


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jan 2022)

Well the video is pertinent about the issue at hand. It is a significant event and gives people a taste of the mood of the country, outside of the capitals. Plus points out impacts on the infrastructure web that maintains our daily life. Sometimes policy making has unintended effects and we can live without politicians/government for awhile (Belgian enters Chat), but not truckers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Aren't they staying until the mandates are removed and/or the government is "dissolved"?


Nice. That's some serious commitment.


----------



## mariomike (27 Jan 2022)

Flag waving, chanting "Freedom!", yellow Stars of David, creating severe traffic congestion - including emergency response delays,  deja vu wondering if what happened in our neighbour's national capitol last year could happen to ours...

What effect, if any, the  tantrum    protest will have on the hearts and minds of Canadian voters after his defeat of Harper, Scheer, O'Toole, we will find out in the next election with whoever comes next.


----------



## lenaitch (27 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Not being dismissive or trying to discredit- just offering some context.  He has as much right to say his piece as anyone else, and be judged by what he says and the company he keeps now.  Same with Jordan Peterson; although it would help if I understood what he is saying half the time.
> 
> I did close protection for him once and found him to be an arrogant ego on legs, so perhaps that is clouding my view.


On reflection, I considered some personal timelines and realize that I did the protection detail for Brian Tobin.  Apologies for slagging the wrong ego.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> ... we can live without politicians/government for awhile (Belgian and Northern Ireland enters Chat), but not truckers.


Added one more


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jan 2022)

*Elon Musk tweeted in favour of Canadian truckers as a convoy heads to Ottawa to protest COVID regulations across the country.*

To be fair it might not be high praise. According to people on Twitter Musk is just an idiot.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Flag waving, chanting "Freedom!", yellow Stars of David, creating severe traffic congestion - including emergency response delays,  deja vu wondering if what happened in our neighbour's national capitol last year could happen to ours...
> 
> What effect, if any, the  tantrum    protest will have on the hearts and minds of Canadian voters after his defeat of Harper, Scheer, O'Toole, we will find out in the next election with whoever comes next.


Well according to the emails I am getting from the "National Observer" , the convoy is an evil plot between Trump and Harper, because everything is their fault, always.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Added one more



Good point...


----------



## mariomike (27 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Well according to the emails I am getting from the "National Observer" , the convoy is an evil plot between Trump and Harper, because everything is their fault, always.



The former guys may be relevant to some, but Maverick Party Secretary Tamara Lich seems more closely associated with the "Freedom Convoy". 

Whoever gets the credit, if they get our federal, provincial and municipal governments to "let Covid rip", they can call it a 
( Pyrrhic? ) victory.  

They interviewed a lady today at Keele and 401 said she was there because the City of Toronto fired her, and she was hoping the convoy would get her job back. Good luck with that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (27 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> *Elon Musk tweeted in favour of Canadian truckers as a convoy heads to Ottawa to protest COVID regulations across the country.*
> 
> To be fair it might not be high praise. According to people on Twitter Musk is just an idiot.


Yup, the smartest, richest, most inventive idiot going. Twitter and the left don't like him because he speaks truth and pragmatism to the ignorant.


----------



## Furniture (28 Jan 2022)

If you have 15 min, and are willing to listen Russel Brand has an interesting video on the convoy. His point about how narratives are created is something that has been discussed here before, but it's nice to see a more progressive leaning person tackle it as well. 

Unless he's now Alt-right, along with Joe Rogan....


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Jan 2022)

I struggle with RB.  Not his stance on this just his presentation and voice lol cuts right through me.


----------



## Quirky (28 Jan 2022)

Watch Get Him to the Greek and try to watch that video. Not happening.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Jan 2022)

Quirky said:


> Watch Get Him to the Greek and try to watch that video. Not happening.



I think thats my problem


----------



## Mick (28 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yup, the smartest, richest, most inventive idiot going. Twitter and the left don't like him because he speaks truth and pragmatism to the ignorant.



Found this interesting.  Agree that Musk is a pragmatist; anti-mandate, but pro-vaccine.

"Musk told Time last month in an interview after he was selected a "Person of the Year" that *he and his eligible children are all vaccinated because the science is "unequivocal"* but said he is opposed to mandates."









						Elon Musk offers support to Canadian truckers amid COVID vaccine mandate
					

Tesla CEO Elon Musk offered support to Canadian truckers protesting the federal government’s vaccine mandate on Thursday in a series of tweets.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## dapaterson (28 Jan 2022)

Kingston police report on the size of the convoy coming from the west 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487074460062699521


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Kingston police report on the size of the convoy coming from the west
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487074460062699521



Meanwhile, from Nova Scotia


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

Mick said:


> Found this interesting.  Agree that Musk is a pragmatist; anti-mandate, but pro-vaccine.
> 
> "Musk told Time last month in an interview after he was selected a "Person of the Year" that *he and his eligible children are all vaccinated because the science is "unequivocal"* but said he is opposed to mandates."
> 
> ...


According to mariomike and America's Meriam-Webster dictionary, that would make Musk an anti-vaxxer 



mariomike said:


> I don't think I have read a defintion of anti-vaxxer in any of our Covid discussions, so I looked it up in the dictionary,
> Definition of _anti-vaxxer_​*: *a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination
> 
> 
> ...



Of course, this definition is not what is found in Canada's Oxford English Dictionary, so he would only be considered an anti-vaxxer in the U.S.


----------



## PMedMoe (28 Jan 2022)

This may be just an opinion, but it's probably not far from what's happening.

It's not vaccines but anger that's fuelling trucker protest


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Kingston police report on the size of the convoy coming from the west
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487074460062699521


Are you sure that is the convoy coming from the West, and not the one coming from Southern Ontario... that would be a bit of a detour on the way to Ottawa from Northern Ontario. There are several convoys starting from different locations that are converging in Ottawa.


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> According to mariomike and America's Meriam-Webster dictionary, that would make Musk an anti-vaxxer



Whatever. 

No mandate = Let it rip.

Edit to add,

Here we go, again, with the dictionary.

Mandate:


> The authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.


No mandate = no "authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election."


----------



## PMedMoe (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Are you sure that is the convoy coming from the West, and not the one coming from Southern Ontario... that would be a bit of a detour on the way to Ottawa from Northern Ontario. There are several convoys starting from different locations that are converging in Ottawa.


Maye be this is the one from the West.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486699830147756032


----------



## Spencer100 (28 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows....I just read your postscript.  "Despair is a sin"  Thank you for that.  It got me thinking.  And about this thread.  You are right.  I have been too down.  Mental Health tip for friday!


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> This may be just an opinion, but it's probably not far from what's happening.
> 
> It's not vaccines but anger that's fuelling trucker protest



Be interesting to know how many 18-wheelers are doing their jobs. Same as they do every day, around the clock. 

By the number of four-wheelers with "F🍁CK Trudeau" flags, it looks - to me - like a temper tantrum about the last three federal elections. 

I say that because when they were firing unvaccinated city employees by the hundreds in October, I don't recall any protests against the mayor.

99% got their shots, and kept their jobs. 



> "...masks, distancing, reducing contacts, providing negative tests, and so on."


Was not an option. Yet, I recall no protests against the mayor.



> What about other measures? ...masks, distancing, reducing contacts, providing negative tests, and so on.



I guess "Freedom" means different things to different people. 

"Freedom" , to some, may mean freedom from ANY mandates  - "...masks, distancing, reducing contacts, providing negative tests, and so on."

YMMV


----------



## PMedMoe (28 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Be interesting to know how many 18-wheelers are doing their jobs. Same as they do every day, around the clock.



Not sure about Canadian routes, but apparently, cross-border trucking was about the same as last year.

"Alghabra said he's also been monitoring the volume of trucks crossing the border each day since Jan. 15 and has seen no measurable reduction in the number of trucks. Last week, he said almost 100,000 trucks crossed the border -- about the same as usual for this time of year, despite a big snowstorm that hit Central Canada and the U.S. and one of those days being an American holiday (Martin Luther King Jr. Day on Jan. 17)."

COVID-19 vaccine mandate for truckers not causing food shortage, empty shelves


----------



## Remius (28 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a certain leader in Ottawa is self-isolating for 5 days. Excellent timing, he's going to miss all the big trucks.





Rifleman62 said:


> It is, as stated, very, very convenient that the sheltered Trudeau has been exposed to COVID (but tested negative). I which he was exposed as the worst PM ever. He is the coward of the city.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I agree that Trudeau self isolation is an eye brow raising coincidence (mind you it’s Saturday and no one will be in the office) I’m not sure that O’toole hitching himself and his party this cause is going to wear well later.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Jan 2022)

See how effective controling narratives can be? We're busy LOLing over the size of this convoy and how it's smaller than boasted mean while important questions raised by Brian Peckford will get less attention than an Instagram picture of food.
​


----------



## kev994 (28 Jan 2022)




----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> That kind of goes back to what people who are against mandates are talking about... It's not the vaccine that is the problem, it's that governments are forcing people to choose between employment and vaccines that is the issue.


The restriction is just for any cross border worker needs to be vaccinated. That is for both getting into the US and coming back in. Most governments across the planet have severe restrictions on allowing non-vaccinated foreign citizens from entering the country, with very little exceptions, so with 80%+ vaccination rate in the truck drivers, why should the 20% get any kind of special treatment?

They don't even have to choose between their job and a vaccine; they just can't enter the US (b/c of US rules) or renter Canada without quarantining. Still no issue driving within the country.

That limits what they can do with work sure, but plenty of work for driving within Canada. 

Best of luck to these bellends though, it's almost -30 in Ottawa today and won't be much warmer tomorrow. Hope they have fun freezing their freedoms off tomorrow for an empty Parliament  for likes and shares on their social media echo chambers.


----------



## Kilted (28 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Maye be this is the one from the West.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486699830147756032


Even in both of those are separate, that's still substantially smaller then what is being promoted.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> This may be just an opinion, but it's probably not far from what's happening.
> 
> It's not vaccines but anger that's fuelling trucker protest


Agree with the anger fuel, and not the only Sun Media-ite concerned about the cranky few taking away from the concerns of the many.
"STELTER: Trucker convoy has lost its wheels"


----------



## Kilted (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Are you sure that is the convoy coming from the West, and not the one coming from Southern Ontario... that would be a bit of a detour on the way to Ottawa from Northern Ontario. There are several convoys starting from different locations that are converging in Ottawa.


Unless they detoured to pass through more populated areas. Based on the numbers I've seen, it looks like some people joined for part of the way and left at some point.


----------



## Furniture (28 Jan 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> The restriction is just for any cross border worker needs to be vaccinated. That is for both getting into the US and coming back in. Most governments across the planet have severe restrictions on allowing non-vaccinated foreign citizens from entering the country, with very little exceptions, so with 80%+ vaccination rate in the truck drivers, why should the 20% get any kind of special treatment?
> 
> They don't even have to choose between their job and a vaccine; they just can't enter the US (b/c of US rules) or renter Canada without quarantining. Still no issue driving within the country.
> 
> ...


The convoy is about more than just the trucking mandates, lots of people are frustrated with governments at all levels, and are frustrated at being coerced into getting a vaccine to keep a roof over their head.

If you aren't frustrated by that it's cool, I'm not that particularly annoyed by it all either, but the government would be wise to acknowledge the frustration, and look for ways to dissipate it.


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Rights have limitations otherwise your "Liberal Democracy" can't exist....


And what is the justification for the mandate at this point? There is no tangible difference in transmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals since Omicron took over as the primary variant. The unvaccinated truckers can still freely move across the country, potentially spreading the virus between regions. As well, there doesn't seem to be much difference in risk between Canada and the U.S.... it is everywhere at this point.

In a Liberal Democracy, limits on human rights are only justifiable under situations of extreme risk to the state itself, such as during civil war. Is anyone suggesting that this trucker mandate will have any noticeable impact on virus transmission or hospital rates, given that they should still be on the road travelling freely within the country? Or is it just a "no exceptions" policy designed to appease the majority that have become angry at the unvaccinated minority?


----------



## dimsum (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> And what is the justification for the mandate at this point? There is no tangible difference in transmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals since Omicron took over as the primary variant. The unvaccinated truckers can still freely move across the country, potentially spreading the virus between regions. As well, there doesn't seem to be much difference in risk between Canada and the U.S.... it is everywhere at this point.
> 
> In a Liberal Democracy, limits on human rights are only justifiable under situations of extreme risk to the state itself, such as during civil war. Is anyone suggesting that this trucker mandate will have any noticeable impact on virus transmission or hospital rates, given that they should still be on the road travelling freely within the country? Or is it just a "no exceptions" policy designed to appease the majority that have become angry at the unvaccinated minority?


How about the severity of cases once caught?  If vaccinated people have far lower severity, then that's still lowering potential stress on hospitals.


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> How about the severity of cases once caught?  If vaccinated people have far lower severity, then that's still lowering potential stress on hospitals.


Dimsum, is that to say that you believe preventing unvaccinated truckers from cross border travel into the U.S., while allowing them to continue driving freely within the country will meaningfully reduce their risk of catching COVID? If so, is it a significant enough reduction of risk to justify denying them their rights under Sections 6 of The Charter?

It is still the same demographics of people in high risk categories (those over 60, severely overweight, diabetics, etc.) that make up the lion's share of persons in hospital and ICUs. When you look at those that are under 60 without known health conplications, then the risk of severe illness is quite small.

For example, in Ontario, when you look at hospitalizations by age, the vast majority are over 60. Those over 80 have the highest hospitalization rates, by far, despite a roughly 97% vaccination rate.









						Ontario COVID-19 Data Tool | Public Health Ontario
					

Explore confirmed COVID-19 data in Ontario by: case trends over time including hospitalizations and deaths, age and sex, public health unit, outbreaks, laboratory testing and vaccines.




					www.publichealthontario.ca
				




A vaccinated person over 80 is significantly more likely (over 20x more likely) to be hospitalized from COVID than someone that is unvaccinated and under under 40. It is for this reason that Greece's mandatory vaccination policy only applies to those over 60 years old. In comparison, our PM is decrying a serious need for more children under the age of 12 to be vaccinated (they are already about half vaccinated)... this can be compared to Sweden's recent decision that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benfits for young children unless they have certain health conditions.

If the goal is to keep people out of the hospital by preventing them from being exposed to the virus, then why is it just the unvaccinated and not the elderly that are prevented from travel, dining, etc? Are the policies designed to reduce risk of overcrowded hospitals, or to punish those whose decisions regarding their bodily autonomy fall out of line with the governments' stance.

I'm in no way advocating against vaccination, in general, but what is trying to be gained from all of these coercive measures? Do people think that they will convince the vaccine hesitant to trust in the government more?


----------



## QV (28 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Rights have limitations otherwise your "Liberal Democracy" can't exist....


We haven't reached the kind of crisis that should limit individual rights.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (28 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> See how effective controling narratives can be? We're busy LOLing over the size of this convoy and how it's smaller than boasted mean while important questions raised by Brian Peckford will get less attention than an Instagram picture of food.
> ​



Let's see what questions are raised by Peckford.  A search of the Federal Court site does not yet yield any filed documents (_they are usually very quick with getting newly registered filings on their searchable database_), however the legal group representing Peckford et al do have the application on their site.



			https://www.jccf.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/2022-01-27-Notice-of-Application-Peckford-et-al_-REDACTED.pdf


----------



## dimsum (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Dimsum, is that to say that you believe preventing unvaccinated truckers from cross border travel into the U.S., while allowing them to continue driving freely within the country will meaningfully reduce their risk of catching COVID?


If it's anyone who is preventing those truckers from cross-border travel to the US, it's the US govt.  They're the ones not letting any unvaccinated non-US citizen cross by land. 

Take it up with them.


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> If it's anyone who is preventing those truckers from cross-border travel to the US, it's the US govt.  They're the ones not letting any unvaccinated non-US citizen cross by land.
> 
> Take it up with them.


That is a good point. However, it is within our government's power to negotiate with the U.S. to extend the travel exemption that had previously been granted to the trucking industry since the start of the pandemic. This is how bi-national relations work.

Furthermore, even with the U.S.'s own policy preventing the 10% of unvaccinated Canadian truckers from entering the U.S., it is the Canadian government's policy that is preventing the roughly 50% of unvaccinated U.S. truckers from bringing essential goods into Canada. Just because the U.S. makes an unfavourable policy doesn't mean that we need to follow suit.

Dimsum, it seems that you avoided answering my question on whether or not you believe the Canadian trucker mandate will amount to any meaningful reduction in hospitalizations, and can be justified. Instead, you said that it is the U.S. mandate that is at issue.


----------



## Remius (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> That is a good point. However, it is within our government's power to negotiate with the U.S. to extend the travel exemption that had previously been granted to the trucking industry since the start of the pandemic. This is how bi-national relations work.
> 
> Furthermore, even with the U.S.'s own policy preventing the 10% of unvaccinated Canadian truckers from entering the U.S., it is the Canadian government's policy that is preventing the roughly 50% of unvaccinated U.S. truckers from bringing essential goods into Canada. Just because the U.S. makes an unfavourable policy doesn't mean that we need to follow suit.
> 
> Dimsum, it seems that you avoided answering my question on whether or not you believe the Canadian trucker mandate will amount to any meaningful reduction in hospitalizations, and can be justified. Instead, you said that it is the U.S. mandate that is at issue.


The US likely doesn’t want unvaccinated truckers coming north and may be contracting it here.

What negotiating power does our gvt have right now with an america first policy POTUS?  We likely agreed to this to appease them for other things.  That’s how bi national négociations work.   It’s likely an easy win since the gvt is fine with vaccine mandates at their level.


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So you ARE saying all of the measures society took alleviated us from "that" type of crisis,......thanks for coming around.


His statement doesn't insinuate that at all. He never said that if no measures were taken that the situation we may have found ourselves in would be one that justified such a curtailment of human rights. Even last spring, a year into the pandemic, the PM did not believe that mandatory vaccination policies should be considered, because they would violate The Charter and cause division within the country... his tune changed just prior to the fall election when he saw it as a wedge issue that could secure him support.

Do you believe that the mandatory vaccination policy for federal public servants, the majority of whom continue to work from home, made a significant reduction in cases? Is the current trucker mandate expected to meaningfully reduce the number of infections amongst truckers, given that they can still drive freely across the country?

Keep in mind that these are basic human rights that people are arguing for. Primacy of such rights are at the heart of Liberalism. They are not the same type of rights as the U.S.'s "right to bear arms".


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The US likely doesn’t want unvaccinated truckers coming north and may be contracting it here.
> 
> What negotiating power does our gvt have right now with an america first policy POTUS?  We likely agreed to this to appease them for other things.  That’s how bi national négociations work.   It’s likely an easy win since the gvt is fine with vaccine mandates at their level.


Do you actually believe that our government only pursued this mandate because of pressure from the U.S. ...what about all of the other workplace mandates that they have imposed on federal employees and federally regulated industries, were those to appease the U.S. too?


----------



## dimsum (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Dimsum, it seems that you avoided answering my question on whether or not you believe the Canadian trucker mandate will amount to any meaningful reduction in hospitalizations, and can be justified. Instead, you said that it is the U.S. mandate that is at issue.


The mandate was for any unvaccinated truckers to require a 2-week quarantine period, right?  If so, then yes I believe it does.


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> The mandate was for any unvaccinated truckers to require a 2-week quarantine period, right?  If so, then yes I believe it does.


But if there is no difference in risk of spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated at this point, then what is the reason for the quarantine? To reduce that individuals risk of hospitalization?

In essence, the quarantine period ensures that unvaccinated truckers will not be offered jobs that include cross border travel. 

Likewise, the federal government's ongoing policy of requiring negative PCR tests (opposed to more widely available tests) to re-enter the country (including for those that are vaccinated) has prevented even vaccinated, COVID-negative Canadians from being able to re-enter the country, since PCR tests have become exceedingly difficult to book recently. The only option without a negative PCR test is a $6000 fine, quarantine is not even offered. However, the ability to enter and leave the country is a Charter right.









						Canada urged to reverse on-arrival mandatory COVID-19 testing policy for travellers
					

Business groups say mandatory on-arrival travel testing should end, Tam calls it a ‘drain’ on system




					www.google.com


----------



## dapaterson (28 Jan 2022)

kev994 said:


> View attachment 68294


I said the same thing about Big Clothing, showed up for work, and somehow I'm the HR problem.


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> It's not the vaccine that is the problem, it's that governments are forcing people to choose between employment and vaccines that is the issue.



That was my thought when I saw the "F🍁ck Trudeau" flags. 

Even as our former employer was firing unvaxxed employees ( who had already been on unpaid leave for over two months ) by the hundreds, we never saw anything similar to the above directed towards our mayor. 

The union would send a rep to hold your hand during the "dismissal for cause", but that was it.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> And what is the justification for the mandate at this point? There is no tangible difference in transmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals since Omicron took over as the primary variant. The unvaccinated truckers can still freely move across the country, potentially spreading the virus between regions. As well, there doesn't seem to be much difference in risk between Canada and the U.S.... it is everywhere at this point.
> 
> *In a Liberal Democracy, limits on human rights are only justifiable under situations of extreme risk to the state itself*, such as during civil war. Is anyone suggesting that this trucker mandate will have any noticeable impact on virus transmission or hospital rates, given that they should still be on the road travelling freely within the country? Or is it just a "no exceptions" policy designed to appease the majority that have become angry at the unvaccinated minority?


That's not what our Charter says and, like it or not, it's what we've got.  Even in the US - the fount of ultimate freedom to some - rights have limits in many instances that don't threaten the security of the state.  Besides, what you or I think is not particularly relevant except perhaps for debating purposes.  I'm not aware of any Covid-related restriction, mandate or rule that has yet hit the SCOC or appelate-level court.


----------



## Remius (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Do you actually believe that our government only pursued this mandate because of pressure from the U.S. ...what about all of the other workplace mandates that they have imposed on federal employees and federally regulated industries, were those to appease the U.S. too?


No I said it was an easy win,  do you really think we have any leverage to not appease them?  The fact is that they have vaccine requirement.  We do as well.  That may have been by mutual agreement or maybe it was a tit for tat.  You have a better chance of removing that mandate at the border if the US agrees to it than anything these truckers think they will accomplish.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Jan 2022)

Not attesting to the subject or source, just passing it along:









						The trucker convoy organizer is an Islamophobic, homophobic conspiracy theorist
					

A video of Canadian trucker convoy organizer Pat King reveals the extremist core of the protest movement headed for Ottawa.




					cultmtl.com
				




Apparently the organizers have pulled $1Mn out of the GoFundMe account.  That's a lot of gas and snacks.









						Organizer of GoFundMe campaign for trucker convoy withdraws $1M, company confirms  | Globalnews.ca
					

The convoy movement, known as the “Save Canada” movement or the “freedom convoy,” started last Sunday in British Columbia and is making its way across Canada.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## winds_13 (28 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> That's not what our Charter says and, like it or not, it's what we've got.  Even in the US - the fount of ultimate freedom to some - rights have limits in many instances that don't threaten the security of the state.  Besides, what you or I think is not particularly relevant except perhaps for debating purposes.  I'm not aware of any Covid-related restriction, mandate or rule that has yet hit the SCOC or appelate-level court.


I never mentioned The Charter specifically in that post, I was speaking about Liberal Democracy. Section 1 of the Charter "guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

The key is that the limits must be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. How are workplace mandates with little medical justification (see my other posts), made without parliamentary discussion, supposed to meet this standard? No, no cases have yet made it up to the appellate court but there are lawsuits in progress... they are just moving at the speed of justice, so no hearings for another few months.

As you brought up the U.S., you should note that Biden's widespread vaccine mandate was struck down by the courts... and this was a mandate that included reasonable accomodation for testing (unlike the mandates being enforced by the federal government in Canada).


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Not attesting to the subject or source, just passing it along:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This caught my eye from the above,

I am concerned by extremist elements that are spreading misinformation and attempting to turn the convoy into a Canadian version of the terrorist attacks on the US Capitol.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486762512473280516


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> *Elon Musk tweeted in favour of Canadian truckers as a convoy heads to Ottawa to protest COVID regulations across the country.*



That was nice.

Is that the one pushing for autonomous trucks?
​


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> This caught my eye from the above,
> 
> I am concerned by extremist elements that are spreading misinformation and attempting to turn the convoy into a Canadian version of the terrorist attacks on the US Capitol.
> 
> ...


It must be a terrible feeling for Jagmeet to constantly be so fearful of his fellow Canadians.


----------



## Mills Bomb (28 Jan 2022)

This seems to be unfolding into quite the situation in Ottawa. I can't imagine this protest will be a good look for Canada or our efforts in Ukraine.

Left or Right, it seems our country has become so divided over these mandates we simply can't continue to successfully exist in this form without a lot of people being really pissed off. Perhaps this is the point where the politicians have simply reached their limit of exploitation, they got 90% vaccination, the battle for last 10% may be too hard fought (Not by politicians - but by our retail workers, police, and everyone else who actually deals with the general public day to day) and going down this road may have the potential to lead to even more civil unrest as we're beginning to see now.

The Left leaning sources seem to be trying to play this thing down, while on the right they're trying to play up the numbers to things that don't make sense (For example the early claims of 150,000+ trucks coming from the far-right sources). None of the bias is any surprise though, everyone knows different news sources have different biases, and probably most will agree we've seen these same media bias's with the BLM protests last year being portrayed in completely different ways by different sides of the political spectrum. I've been following this and I think the numbers of big trucks may end up being 1000 to 2000, with an additional 4000-6000 POMV (Pickups, cars, etc) but make no mistake, this is A LOT of vehicles and can easily jam up the entire city. Anyone who has been to Parliament Hill knows how much space a dozen touring buses takes there, so this is not an insignificant amount by any means and I think it _could_ turn out to be a lot more vehicles than my personal prediction.

I'm seeing photos coming from Ottawa and the trucker "advanced party" is already jamming the place, there's non-stop honking, the police are apparently already requesting additional support, and the main body isn't arriving until tomorrow when I imagine the full extent of the event (err- chaos?) will unfold. As for when they're leaving? Nobody knows, some of the trucks are carrying small wooden shacks on them so it looks like they are planning to stay a while and set up shop. Some sources are saying they're going to have concerts, political stages will be set up, and they even plan on having aboriginal leaders on stage speaking out against Trudeau (This is according to event organizers - will it happen? Unsure. It will definitely be interesting if it does).

The Conservatives seem to be sort of concerned as well, it seems like because they don't know the outcome yet, a lot of them are really walking on eggshells trying to decide if they should be for or against it. O'Toole is flip-flopping, it seems like he's not fully confident in what to do right now or how to play this off yet, he could very easily make a mistake depending how this goes. JT seems to be firm on playing it down and trying to ignore it and further pissing them off, this is probably not good either. This is definitely unprecedented so who knows what the best stance on it actually is for each political party. Singh's brother-in-law donated $13,000 to the convoy so I can't see that working out well for the NDP either, so all of the big players are potentially at risk of making very big political mistakes that may effect them in the next election (If any of them are even still running based on their recent polls).

Anyone still trying to play this thing down saying stuff like "It's only going to be a couple dozen vehicles" needs to get more informed especially if you're currently in the NCR. Good, bad, or terrible, this massive rally is definitely happening and I don't think anyone right now can accurately say how it's going to end, or even when it's going to end, or how many people are actually going to be here in total. We'll only know once it's over.

I personally can't see this ending all that well. We know the organizers demands of "ending all lockdowns and mandates" probably won't work, and certainly won't have any immediate results. Is it realistic that JT will step down? Very doubtful he will do that. Best case for the truckers seems to be that they remain peaceful, make their point, and then head back home. Perhaps Doug Ford will try to win some support by loosening up the provincial regulations a bit more. If the movement is as big as the organizers think, they can vote out JT next election and they _might_ gain some support as it certainly seems those opposed to these mandates are a lot more people than initially thought. There is also a lot of support from young people being shown in photos of the crowds, including parents bringing their young children to wave on the trucks as heroes. I'm not a psychologist but I'm just going to guess here that maybe exposing young children to confusing and polarizing politics they probably can't understand isn't a good thing, and they may end up taking that into the classroom with them when school resumes.

Let's hope this BS is over sooner than later, for me personally I mean the BS coming from all sides that poured fuel on this fire from the over the top mandates, JT further pissing them off with his attempts to alienate all opposed to his ways, the anti-science facebook idiots, the far-right idiots with agendas, the far-left idiots with agendas, the foreign influences helping fund this thing (How many of those donations are probably from Russia or China?) and everyone else who is contributing to turning Ottawa into a massive embarrassing traffic jam of pissed off citizens. I think this will have international consequences for other countries as well, last night Trump Jr. made a video saying "They should do something like this in America".


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> This seems to be unfolding into quite the situation in Ottawa. I can't imagine this protest will be a good look for Canada or our efforts in Ukraine.
> 
> Left or Right, it seems our country has become so divided over these mandates we simply can't continue to successfully exist in this form without a lot of people being really pissed off. Perhaps this is the point where the politicians have simply reached their limit of exploitation, they got 90% vaccination, the battle for last 10% may be too hard fought (Not by politicians - but by our retail workers, police, and everyone else who actually deals with the general public day to day) and going down this road may have the potential to lead to even more civil unrest as we're beginning to see now.
> 
> ...



The best way to 'control mobs' like this?

Bring up the food trucks and coffee wagons.

A little hospitality goes a long way to defusing tense situations like this. Seriously


----------



## dimsum (28 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Perhaps Doug Ford will try to win some support by loosening up the provincial regulations a bit more.


Interestingly, ON is loosening regulations on 31 Jan.  Indoor dining (50% capacity), indoor sports (same restrictions)...

Planned a month or more before this shitshow, of course, but I have 150% confidence that they'll say they had a part to play.


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The best way to 'control mobs' like this?
> 
> Bring up the food trucks and coffee wagons.
> 
> A little hospitality goes a long way to defusing tense situations like this. Seriously



Sounds so simple. But, I believe you are absolutely right.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Jan 2022)

I didn't run into the convoy on the highway. I did pass by a lot of people parked on the side of the road and standing on overpasses waving Canadian flags.

I'm not really vested into the whole convoy stuff but seeing so many Canadians out in -20C  weather supporting other Canadians was impressive. Especially when a lot of Canadians can't even get off their ass to vote.

The way the government is trying to vilify Canadians should be a big redflag for everyone.


----------



## dimsum (28 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I didn't run into the convoy on the highway. I did pass by a lot of people parked on the side of the road and standing on overpasses waving Canadian flags.
> 
> I'm not really vested into the whole convoy stuff but seeing so many Canadians out in -20C  weather supporting other Canadians was impressive. Especially when a lot of Canadians can't even get off their ass to vote.
> 
> The way the government is trying to vilify Canadians should be a big redflag for everyone.


Ironically, this _will_ get more Canadians to vote next time.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Jan 2022)

"I am concerned by extremist elements that are spreading misinformation and attempting to turn the convoy into a Canadian version of the terrorist attacks on the US Capitol."

aka

"I have safety concerns"

How spineless.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Jan 2022)

I





mariomike said:


> That was nice.
> 
> Is that the one pushing for autonomous trucks?
> ​











						Here, Let Me Google That For You
					

Passive-aggressively teach your friends how to Google. For all those people who find it more convenient to ask you rather than search it themselves. Not associated with Google.




					is.gd
				




😉


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2022)

FYI, in case anyone wants to see the reported end state of the protests -- appears to be the signing of the attached by the GG and the Senate (source)

Also, this reportedly from the Sgt At Arms (source)


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Rights have limitations otherwise your "Liberal Democracy" can't exist....


As do the powers of the various levels of government, our governments at all levels govern by consent, that consent is thinner than they realize and it's not hard to rub spots raw, particularly with the steady degradation of parliamentary powers in favour of the PMO (under the last 3 PM's)


----------



## Mills Bomb (28 Jan 2022)

The news about this convoy just keeps getting worse.

There's someone named Pat King that is coming to light and his views are very far-right. One video shows him getting a lot of attention and they are claiming he is the "real" convoy organizer.

I think a lot more is going to come to light as this unfolds and we realize the full details of what's actually happening. It's looking less and less likely this will remain peaceful at this point but given how unprecedented this we'll have to just wait and see what happens. Hopefully I'm wrong about that but apparently there's a lot of booze flowing at this event now as well.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Keep in mind that these are basic human rights that people are arguing for. Primacy of such rights are at the heart of Liberalism. They are not the same type of rights as the U.S.'s "right to bear arms".


I would argue the genius in the 'right to bear arms' is as Justin Trudeau put it 'citizens, not just governments, must play a role in ensuring that fundamental rights are defended'. Specifically by providing the means to the citizenry to allow them do defend their rights from a government overstepping its bounds.

It does amaze me in this pandemic how many citizens are actively arguing to limit peoples rights and freedoms as though it is a good thing.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> I never mentioned The Charter specifically in that post, I was speaking about Liberal Democracy. Section 1 of the Charter "guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."
> 
> The key is that the limits must be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. How are workplace mandates with little medical justification (see my other posts), made without parliamentary discussion, supposed to meet this standard? No, no cases have yet made it up to the appellate court but there are lawsuits in progress... they are just moving at the speed of justice, so no hearings for another few months.
> 
> As you brought up the U.S., you should note that Biden's widespread vaccine mandate was struck down by the courts... and this was a mandate that included reasonable accomodation for testing (unlike the mandates being enforced by the federal government in Canada).


"Little medical justification".  Many if not most public health and epidemiologist experts, within and outside government, might disagree.  I hear some folks on social media disagree.

"Without parliamentary discussion".  True, but show me a democratic system that has every single government decision subject to debate.  Otherwise, parliament would still be debating Wave #1.  The regulations (mandates) are authorized by the Emergencies Act, which was passed in 1988 - by a  Conservative government.

Civil lawsuits have no direct impact on the legislative authority of Parliament.


----------



## mariomike (28 Jan 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> It does amaze me in this pandemic how many citizens are actively arguing to limit peoples rights and freedoms as though it is a good thing.



Nothing new about "limit(ing) rights and freedoms" in Canada.

A public notice from the City of Kelowna, B.C. on Oct. 19, 1918:



> In order to prevent the spread of Spanish Influenza all schools, public and private, churches, theatres, moving picture halls, pool rooms and other places of amusement, and lodge meetings, are to be closed until further notice. All public gatherings consisting of ten or more are prohibited.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Jan 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I would argue the genius in the 'right to bear arms' is as Justin Trudeau put it 'citizens, not just governments, must play a role in ensuring that fundamental rights are defended'. Specifically by providing the means to the citizenry to allow them do defend their rights from a government overstepping its bounds.
> 
> It does amaze me in this pandemic how many citizens are actively arguing to limit peoples rights and freedoms as though it is a good thing.


Even that right is not inalienable.  No right is, in spite of what the Declaration says.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Nothing new about "limit(ing) peoples rights and freedoms" in Canada.
> 
> A public notice from the City of Kelowna, B.C. on Oct. 19, 1918:


Even then eventually people told the authorities to pound sand, the fact that so many people have played along this far is quite impressive. When there is no more political capital to be squeezed out of mandates and lockdowns, you can bet the politically unity on them will cease to exist.


----------



## kkwd (29 Jan 2022)

Here is a piece from Rex Murphy, particularly on Trudeau's remarks on citizens holding "unacceptable views"


> A couple of years ago Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was sending valentines to our noble truckers for keeping Canadians fed through their deliveries. Yet a couple of days before this weekend’s gathering of the aforementioned truckers, who have travelled half of Canada in midwinter, from both directions, to express their concerns and feelings in a peaceful protest, he shoved them to the margins, declaring them a “fringe” and their views “unacceptable.”


Rex Murphy: Should Justin Trudeau be deciding what views are 'acceptable'?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Even then eventually people told the authorities to pound sand, the fact that so many people have played along this far is quite impressive. When there is no more political capital to be squeezed out of mandates and lockdowns, you can bet the politically unity on them will cease to exist.


I'm  thinking that'll be the next step of progression. If Trudeau isn't  smart enough to make some major concession(s). To put it all to rest both sides need to walk away, feeling they've won. It needs to be a win win. I don't think trudeau's ego will let him bargain. An emporer/tyrant/dictator kind of person doesn't bargain or make deals with the help. If not, a truce won't  work. I believe the next step will start with low level civil disobedience. Stores stop enforcing, people ignoring the mandates. Just, fuck the government and ignore them. The trick is to overwhelm the system so it can't respond. You can't  arrest a city. I won't bother extrapolating or guessing past this point.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> ... There's someone named Pat King that is coming to light and his views are very far-right. One video shows him getting a lot of attention and they are claiming he is the "real" convoy organizer ...


In his case, there also seems to be a fair bit of social media traffic dismissing him as the "real" convoy organizer, too.

Meanwhile, a former CF Navy-ite offers up some PR advice in the form of an OPORD ....


> ... First, find some ex-military or media trained people in your outfit. Even if they’ve only worked on a school paper, it’s better than nothing. The military people are for organizing stuff. That’s what we’re trained for and they’re good at working under pressure with tight deadlines. Also, they know what SMEAC and OPORDs stand for ...


More @ link or in attached in case link doesn't work.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

LIVE1 Digital Channel
					

There are currently no events scheduled on the LIVE1 digital channel. Check back soon to watch live events from across Canada and the world!




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




Live camera feed if anyone wants to check in on the anti mandate/dissolve the gvt protest.


----------



## FSTO (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> LIVE1 Digital Channel
> 
> 
> There are currently no events scheduled on the LIVE1 digital channel. Check back soon to watch live events from across Canada and the world!
> ...


Looks a bit sad out there. Do they (authorities) have Wellington blocked from Elgin to the Portage Bridge?


----------



## Rd651 (29 Jan 2022)

LOL


----------



## FSTO (29 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> In his case, there also seems to be a fair bit of social media traffic dismissing him as the "real" convoy organizer, too.
> 
> Meanwhile, a former CF Navy-ite offers up some PR advice in the form of an OPORD ....
> 
> More @ link or in attached in case link doesn't work.


Honestly I think its too late for these folks. Opinions are being hardened and they are not going to deviate now. 
BTW, I've been inundated with "Freedom Convoys" pictures from WWII.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> ... It needs to be a win win. I don't think trudeau's ego will let him bargain. An emporer/tyrant/dictator kind of person doesn't bargain or make deals with the help. If not, a truce won't  work ...


And how much room to meet closer to the middle do you see from the covoy-ites?  Based on the MOU being thrown out there, seems like an ultimatum. And with more than a bit of narrative calling for the government to go, any estimates how much that side'll give to reach an agreement?  I'm leaning this way ....


FSTO said:


> Honestly I think its too late for these folks. Opinions are being hardened and they are not going to deviate now.


... but we'll see ...

Meanwhile, from the bought-and-paid-for _Toronto Sun:  __*"LILLEY: Media's handling of trucker convoy one-sided, inflammatory, shameful"*_


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Ironically, this _will_ get more Canadians to vote next time.



^ This.


----------



## dimsum (29 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> Looks a bit sad out there. Do they (authorities) have Wellington blocked from Elgin to the Portage Bridge?


Pretty much.  

When the rest of the convoy arrives, they won't be anywhere near Parliament.  

So....uh...congrats?


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> When the rest of the convoy arrives, they won't be anywhere near Parliament.
> 
> So....uh...congrats?


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

That’s just now. Pretty thin so far.


----------



## Kilted (29 Jan 2022)

I see two trucks.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> I see two trucks.


Pretty sure that might be an OPS paddy wagon


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Maybe people got this memo?


----------



## Rd651 (29 Jan 2022)

LOL


----------



## PMedMoe (29 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> The news about this convoy just keeps getting worse.
> 
> There's someone named Pat King that is coming to light and his views are very far-right. One video shows him getting a lot of attention and they are claiming he is the "real" convoy organizer.



Pat King is well known in the COVID conspiracy movement.  He was the guy behind this bullshit.

Look at some of the people involved in this:


The Facebook page for the convoy has shared content from and listed as an organizer Wexit co-founder and Yellow Vest Canada organizer Patrick King, who has previously hosted counter-protests to anti-racism rallies, spread COVID-19 misinformation, and spread the Great Replacement conspiracy theory. Canada Unity, organizer for the convoy, continues to host Patrick King's livestream on its website.
Tamara Lich, the protest's fundraiser, is Secretary for the Maverick Party, a western separatist group formerly known as Wexit Canada. Lich was previously the regional co-ordinator for Wexit in southeastern Alberta and board member for Wexit Alberta. The Maverick Party has denied involvement in fundraising for the convoy, issuing a statement on January 24 saying that the party is not involved in the protest.
Action 4 Canada - associated with the Canada Unity group inside the Freedom Convoy - Islamophobic and anti-LGBTQ conspiracy group with webpages about the dangers of political Islam, health consequences of 5G technology and underreporting of adverse vaccine reactions.  Founded by Tanya Gaw who actively supported the Yellow Vests protests of 2019.
Jason LaFace, Canada Unity's Ontario organizer for the Freedom Convoy is also a main organizer for No More Lockdowns Canada - An anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine mandate organization primarily associated with expelled Ontario MPP Randy Hillier which holds anti-lockdown rallies across Ontario. Jason LaFace, Ontario organizer for Canada Unity (who also goes by Jason LaFaci) is the President of the People's Party of Canada Sudbury Electoral District Association with a previous background in anti-Black Lives Matter activities.
Benjamin Dichter who is listed as an organizer on the Freedom Convoy GoFundMe page and who is an organizer of the Freedom Convoy was a speaker at the inaugural 2019 PPC National Convention where he claimed political Islam has infiltrated the Conservative Party and is "rotting away at our society like syphilis".


----------



## Rd651 (29 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Pat King is well known in the COVID conspiracy movement.  He was the guy behind this bullshit.
> 
> Look at some of the people involved in this:
> 
> ...


Yep, and lots of people freely gave them 6.5+ million dollars in go funds...lol


----------



## PMedMoe (29 Jan 2022)

Rd651 said:


> Yep, and lots of people freely gave them 6.5+ million dollars in go funds...lol



Well, you know what they say about fools and their money.


----------



## FSTO (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> That’s just now. Pretty thin so far.


So all the Pearl clutching from the National Media, LPC, Progressive Left has been a bit overblown?


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> So all the Pearl clutching from the National Media, LPC, Progressive Left has been a bit overblown?


Possibly but I would say the same thing about the protest people saying they’d have 10k trucks and and half a million people lol.  So like most protests on the hil, the organizers like to inflate their numbers.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

current picture


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> current picture
> View attachment 68315


From another angle ...


----------



## FSTO (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Possibly but I would say the same thing about the protest people saying they’d have 10k trucks and and half a million people lol.  So like most protests on the hil, the organizers like to inflate their numbers.


Not going to dispute that the convoy numbers were well over slated as well.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Possibly but I would say the same thing about the protest people saying they’d have 10k trucks and and half a million people lol.  So like most protests on the hil, the organizers like to inflate their numbers.


Like Trudeau saying (after the latest electoral waste of 2/3 Billion dollars), “You are sending us back to work with a clear mandate…” when it was only 32.6% of 62.3% eligible voters, or only 1/5 of eligible Canadian voters, statistically the weakest basis of election ever in Canada since 1867?

Are there some fringe elements in this group?  Yes, that’s quite clear (Confederate flags on vehicles, Stars-of-David taken out of context, yes), but there are still a lot of folks participating and many on the heavy handedness of many levels of government overall, not just the more specific point of anti-vaccine focused demonstration.  I haven’t seen Trudeau use speech to acknowledge the mainstream concern while in a balanced manner, carefully separating the extremist tag along elements…it’s a deliberate mealy-mouthed sweeping statement methodology to gaslight the whole effort as fringe, and discredit the underlying message of a large share of the citizenry approaching their limit of one of the weakest government mandates in the history of Canada.  If Trudeau wants to play the Divide-and-Conquer game, he may damn himself (or if he goes all soft and runs away taking a knee, and ‘passing the flame of progression’ to the next Liberal Leader when things look ugly, which is where I think 2023 will be) then I look forward to his likely having to rue the day of Canadians’ greater discontent…


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Are there some fringe elements in this group?  Yes, that’s quite clear (Confederate flags on vehicles, Stars-of-David taken out of context, yes), but there are still a lot of folks participating and many on the heavy handedness of many levels of government overall, not just the more specific point of anti-vaccine focused demonstration.  I haven’t seen Trudeau use speech to acknowledge the mainstream concern while in a balanced manner, carefully separating the extremist tag along elements…


Speaking of which, here's what a leader who's actually trying to bring people together instead of make them fight each other for votes sounds like:

O'TOOLE: It’s time for solutions, and it’s time for Canadians to come together


----------



## FSTO (29 Jan 2022)

As I’m driving north towards Saskatoon I just met a line of vehicles, semi trucks pick ups and cars heading towards Regina. I’m assuming that they are going to the legislature on a coordinated protest with the folks in Ottawa. I saw an odd looking Canadian flag with red stripes actually red horizontal stripes and then stars within the Mapleleaf. Some of these clowns should remember we fought against the Americans.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

A good and appropriate message.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Speaking of which, here's what a leader who's actually trying to bring people together instead of make them fight each other for votes sounds like:
> 
> O'TOOLE: It’s time for solutions, and it’s time for Canadians to come together


Taken word-for-word, far more clearly peeling off the nutbars from the generally frustrated (highlight mine) ....


> ... there are no words to express what I think of groups that would take advantage of the plight of truckers just to sow division and advance their misguided agenda.
> 
> To these groups I say: your threats of political violence, hate and bigotry have no place in a free and democratic society. In fact, *you risk hurting the chance for truckers to peacefully protest and have their voices heard* ...
> 
> ...


.. than PMJT's take


> ... “The small fringe minority of people who are on their way to Ottawa, who are holding unacceptable views that they are expressing, do not represent the views of Canadians” ...


Meanwhile, some Twitter traffic's pumping up how the PM has paid Antifa $45M to be bad - although the post in the screenshot seems to have disappeared from the OP's account @ this point.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

Precisely.  Trudeau is deliberately vague in his wording…could mean all people coming to Ottawa, or he could slide it back and say, “I didnt mean everyone in the movement is in the fringe, just those who are….ummm, uhhhh, ummmm…”


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Precisely.  Trudeau is deliberately vague in his wording…could mean all people coming to Ottawa, or he could slide it back and say, “I didnt mean everyone in the movement is in the fringe, just those who are….ummm, uhhhh, ummmm…”


If ya have to explain it later, how clear was it, right?

Mind you, asking everyone to _"lower the temperature (and) stop demonizing your fellow citizens and calling them names"_ would have been looked better on O'Toole than just asking those nay-saying the convoy to do that, I still give Team Blue WAY more marks for being clear & precise.


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Jan 2022)

Trudeau would like nothing better than for this to turn violent.  I think he desperately wants his own Jan 6 _"insurrection"_


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm  thinking that'll be the next step of progression. If Trudeau isn't  smart enough to make some major concession(s). To put it all to rest both sides need to walk away, feeling they've won. It needs to be a win win. I don't think trudeau's ego will let him bargain. An emporer/tyrant/dictator kind of person doesn't bargain or make deals with the help. If not, a truce won't  work. I believe the next step will start with low level civil disobedience. Stores stop enforcing, people ignoring the mandates. Just, fuck the government and ignore them. The trick is to overwhelm the system so it can't respond. You can't  arrest a city. I won't bother extrapolating or guessing past this point.


Even Prince John knew when the jig was up and signed a trivial little document at Runnymede. Our Narcissist In Charge would never stoop to this level.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Trudeau would like nothing better than for this to turn violent.  I think he desperately wants his own Jan 6 _"insurrection"_



If you're right, stuff like this suggests that might just happen:


----------



## PMedMoe (29 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, some Twitter traffic's pumping up how the PM has paid Antifa $45M to be bad - although the post in the screenshot seems to have disappeared from the OP's account @ this point.



Consider the source...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486376101630951425


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

So far it seems peaceful.  Some guys parked their pickup trucks on the war memorial grounds but we asked to move and did so without issue.

Anecdote:  i drove out this morning on my way to exercise my freedom to buy a magazine, some paint and get a muffin.  On my way I saw supporters at the Huntclub, walkkey and Innis over passes.  About 20 or so at the huntclun one and maybe half a dozen at each of the other two.  On my way back I saw what looked like small convoy coming in.  One transport truck and maybe about 20 or so cars and pick ups with flags so people are arriving at various times.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

I know this protest is about a whole jumble of things beyond trucker mandates but I have to wonder what this civil war re-enactor is upset about?


----------



## Furniture (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I know this protest is about a whole jumble of things beyond trucker mandates but I have to wonder what this civil war re-enactor is upset about?
> 
> View attachment 68326


I love how all the focus is on a few crazies, and not the vast majority of people who aren't crazy, just upset with the government.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Consider the source...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486376101630951425


Good catch - he says on FB he said it 3 months ago.

Meanwhile, the latest from the PWGSC Hill cam ...


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I love how all the focus is on a few crazies, and not the vast majority of people who aren't crazy, just upset with the government.


All fine folks, nothing to see here.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487475690559651844


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I love how all the focus is on a few crazies, and not the vast majority of people who aren't crazy, just upset with the government.


Did you not see my post right above the one with the civil war enthousiast?  I’m a bit of a civil war buff so I’d be interested to see what has him bothered.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m a bit of a civil war buff so I’d be interested to see what has him bothered.



Losing?


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Losing?


There is irony in a confederate flag being at a “freedom” rally.  

other info: OPS confirmed that the protest did not have a permit. It’s nice that they are being allowed to exercise their freedom of expression despite that oversight.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> There is irony in a confederate flag being at a “freedom” rally.
> 
> other info: OPS confirmed that the protest did not have a permit. It’s nice that they are being allowed to exercise their freedom of expression despite that oversight.


Nor did the Tamil Tigers folks on P.Hill back in 2018 & 2019.  Etc…


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Nor did the Tamil Tigers folks on P.Hill back in 2018 & 2019.  Etc…


Wouldn’t want the narrative to be that the gvt is stepping on their right to assemble.


----------



## blacktriangle (29 Jan 2022)

Some more trucks coming in from the west currently, being shadowed by OPP air assets.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Wouldn’t want the narrative to be that the gvt is stepping on their right to assemble.


Trudeau would change his tune pretty quickly if some media noted the out layers, but came back to the heart of the issue…or at least a substantial part of it…”GoC cracks down on hundreds of peacefully-assembling Sikh-Canadian truckers.”

Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support… 🤔


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support… 🤔



Saw this about that... 🤔

‘We can’t be a part of such a campaign’: Manan Gupta on South Asian truckers and the Freedom Convoy






						TVO | Current affairs, documentaries and education
					






					www.tvo.org


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

Team red is getting perilously close to upsetting a very sizable portion of their 905 & 604 base, I think. Gerald “I’m no longer working for my university pal, Justin” Butts is probably crunching the secret LPC survey numbers and realizing that Trudeau’s sweeping “fringe” comments are starting to build back-pressure. I say that within 48-72 hours we see Trudeau give some thin, non-apology on the issue and that some simply experienced his statement differently than he intended, blah, blah, blah…lest he and Team Red own sliding polling  numbers in 23/24…


----------



## Furniture (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> All fine folks, nothing to see here.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487475690559651844


You're right, they are all racists, and deplorables... Or crazies are as drawn to cameras, as cameras are drawn to crazies.

When you look at the flag with the swastika on it, you can clearly see it's upside down, meaning the idiot who marked it is trying say the government are acting like Nazis, rather than being a sign of support for Naziism. Being against Nazis used to be something people on both sides of the political spectrum agreed on here in Canada.


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> All fine folks, nothing to see here.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487475690559651844


He's also in front of a Quebec flag. That bastard.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> He's also in front of a Quebec flag. That bastard.


And here is Trudeau clearly inviting people to have sex with him.  Shameful self-pimping.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> When you look at the flag with the swastika on it, you can clearly see it's upside down, meaning the idiot who marked it is trying say the government are acting like Nazis, rather than being a sign of support for Naziism. Being against Nazis used to be something people on both sides of the political spectrum agreed on here in Canada.



Seems a pretty common tactic these days.




__





						nazi covid - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

I _think_ the MSM and trudeau's cult have seriously misjudged this. They believed their own lies that this was nothing to worry about and a chance to disenfranchise a large portion of their opposition. Unfortunately, they did a shit job of it. Once they realized their failure, trudeau went into hiding. He wasn't able to spin it because too many Canadians are invested. Not only truck drivers, but other citizens in cars, buses, motorhomes and pickups. The thousands upon thousands that lined highways and overpasses have proven this is not a 'fringe' movement and that his estimations were wrong. He is fully vaxed including a booster, he had a negative test, he has zero reason to isolate. People are seeing this as a move to distance himself and ignore Canadians. He will not even be present to reopen Parliament. The titular head of the country, makes a personal decision to absent himself from the business of the country. The convoy is real, the support is real, their goal is real. Over $8 million raised so far and it keep rolling in. That is real support from thousands of people that won't be ignored. Quibbling about how much is corporate and how much is private. Continually moaning about donation accountability, when it's already a dead issue is childish.  People that are quibbling that the estimate doesn't reflect reality, or those that, like the CBC, spend their time looking for one or two individuals to demonize thousands of citizens with, instead of considering the majority who are there for peaceful purposes are plain and simple, trudeau's useful idiots. Too busy looking through a microscope instead of binoculars. It simply proves that trudeau has managed to effectively create a divisive society. The Freedom Convoy has already won, by exposing the liberals for what they are. I've read a few times (I should have bookmarked) Canada, currently, has the most restrictive covid mandates in the world. Why is that? Is Canada's covid response the way to be? Is our situation worse than everyone else? Or should we be following the rest of the world and move from pandemic to endemic?


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

All fine people.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487517973422223374


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> All fine people.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487517973422223374


Like the Black Block thugs clomping in to BLM rallies?  Not invited, but show up anyway.  No one that I’ve seen hasn’t acknowledged that there are some extreme folks latching on.

Or do you mean that a large fraction of Canada’s independent truckers are Nazis?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Like the Black Block thugs clomping in to BLM rallies?  Not invited, but show up anyway.  No one that I’ve seen hasn’t acknowledged that there are some extreme folks latching on.
> 
> Or do you mean that a large fraction of Canada’s independent truckers are Nazis?


Not just independent truckers, but also anyone that cheers from the sidelines or showed up in other forms of transport. Anyone involved must be guilty by association.

How very 1937 Germany we are.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

At least no damage but still pretty classless.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

Some - NOT ALL - insist on linking Covid to the Holocaust.




__





						holocaust covid - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I _think_ the MSM and trudeau's cult have seriously misjudged this. They believed their own lies that this was nothing to worry about and a chance to disenfranchise a large portion of their opposition. Unfortunately, they did a shit job of it. Once they realized their failure, trudeau went into hiding. He wasn't able to spin it because too many Canadians are invested. Not only truck drivers, but other citizens in cars, buses, motorhomes and pickups. The thousands upon thousands that lined highways and overpasses have proven this is not a 'fringe' movement and that his estimations were wrong. He is fully vaxed including a booster, he had a negative test, he has zero reason to isolate. People are seeing this as a move to distance himself and ignore Canadians. He will not even be present to reopen Parliament. The titular head of the country, makes a personal decision to absent himself from the business of the country. The convoy is real, the support is real, their goal is real. Over $8 million raised so far and it keep rolling in. That is real support from thousands of people that won't be ignored. Quibbling about how much is corporate and how much is private. Continually moaning about donation accountability, when it's already a dead issue is childish.  People that are quibbling that the estimate doesn't reflect reality, or those that, like the CBC, spend their time looking for one or two individuals to demonize thousands of citizens with, instead of considering the majority who are there for peaceful purposes are plain and simple, trudeau's useful idiots. Too busy looking through a microscope instead of binoculars. It simply proves that trudeau has managed to effectively create a divisive society. The Freedom Convoy has already won, by exposing the liberals for what they are. I've read a few times (I should have bookmarked) Canada, currently, has the most restrictive covid mandates in the world. Why is that? Is Canada's covid response the way to be? Is our situation worse than everyone else? Or should we be following the rest of the world and move from pandemic to endemic?


You have been paying attention right?  Restrictions in Ontario are being loosened in a few days with the goal of removing them in March.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Jan 2022)

Go into a grocery aisle right now and you can see how fragile the supply chain is. Is this mandate on truckers worth the price you are going to pay down the road? 

Meanwhile some more feed on the protest


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Some - NOT ALL - insist on linking Covid to the Holocaust.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know you pointed that at me, but I made no such assertion. 

So, whatever.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Go into a grocery aisle right now and you can see how fragile the supply chain is. Is this mandate on truckers worth the price you are going to pay down the road?
> 
> Meanwhile some more feed on the protest


We'll all pay, one way or another, for this. The government has no money. It all comes from us.
Every cent trudeau spends, on whatever, comes from taxpayers.


----------



## PMedMoe (29 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Go into a grocery aisle right now and you can see how fragile the supply chain is.



I just got back from the grocery store. No empty shelves. YMMV.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> I just got back from the grocery store. No empty shelves. YMMV.



Saw this about that, from Midland, ON.









						Local residents should not fear grocery shortages: retail council
					

'Canadians should have no concerns about food availability,' says Retail Council official, noting grocers are adept at dealing with challenges




					www.midlandtoday.ca


----------



## winds_13 (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> You have been paying attention right?  Restrictions in Ontario are being loosened in a few days with the goal of removing them in March.


Does this loosening of restrictions include any changes for unvaccinated Ontarians, or will they continue to live under the same lockdown restictions that have been in place since September? Is there any indication of an end to the vaccine passport system? ... I guess who cares about others, right?


----------



## Furniture (29 Jan 2022)

I just got back from what normally would have been a quick trip to the store out here in Vanier. It took about three to four times as long to get home as it normally would have due to the congestion.

Didn't see any nazis, but I did see a huge number of trucks, cars, vans, and big rigs with Canadian flags waving. People obeyed the traffic laws, honked their horns to show support. The parking at the Holiday Inn on Coventry, was also filled with vehicles flying flags and honking. Even saw people walking on the sidewalk waving in support of the protest.

The DJ on the radio was attempting to make the protest sound horrible, saying she felt sorry for the people who came out for a "peaceful protest". She then had to admit there had been no violence, and no damage done to property, you could hear the disappointment in her voice.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> All fine people.


On both sides I'm told ...


Fishbone Jones said:


> ... The convoy is real, the support is real, *their goal is real* ...


And what is their goal?  The MOU goal of "sign this or resign, GG & Senate?

Meanwhile, latest shot from PWGSC-cam


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Like the Black Block thugs clomping in to BLM rallies?  Not invited, but show up anyway.  No one that I’ve seen hasn’t acknowledged that there are some extreme folks latching on.


People around these parts have said that BLM/Antifa/anti-capitalism protesters should keep a grip on black bloc lest the frustrations feeding the majority get downplayed (or just painted said protesters with a broad brush), so it's only fair that people say the same about another larger group keeping a grip on a small, but dopey, group from causing the frustrations feeding the majority to get downplayed.


----------



## OceanBonfire (29 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Go into a grocery aisle right now and you can see how fragile the supply chain is. Is this mandate on truckers worth the price you are going to pay down the road?
> 
> Meanwhile some more feed on the protest



Inflated concern that has been easily explained:









						Canadians may see less food in grocery stores, but experts say no need to panic - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Canadians shouldn’t worry about food availability or panic buy, experts said, but they may notice shortages of some items and higher prices.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Worker absenteeism -- not trucker vaccine mandates -- impacting store shelves: Metro
					

Vaccine mandates for truckers have raised transportation costs -- but haven't impacted the shipment of goods to stores, the head of one of Canada's largest grocery chains says.




					montreal.ctvnews.ca
				












						As trucker convoy rolls to Ottawa, grocery stores say supply issues have ‘started to ease’ - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Grocery stores say supply chain issues are easing -- but a convoy of truckers are making their way towards Ottawa to speak out in protest of vaccination mandates.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Truck convoys not the main reason behind some supply shortages: experts
					

Experts say shoppers need to remain calm as the food supply chain faces several challenges.




					barrie.ctvnews.ca


----------



## lenaitch (29 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Saw this about that, from Midland, ON.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm up that way.  I haven't seen a bare shelf since the run on TP during wave #1.

******

I've been watching the Ottawa coverage on and off today.  Other than noise and a bunch of people milling about, I haven't seen anything focused.  No speeches, rallying cries, no 'centre stage', etc.  It's almost like they arrived and said 'now what' and didn't have an answer.


----------



## dimsum (29 Jan 2022)

People drinking on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487518296668721153


----------



## Furniture (29 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm up that way.  I haven't seen a bare shelf since the run on TP during wave #1.
> 
> ******
> 
> I've been watching the Ottawa coverage on and off today.  Other than noise and a bunch of people milling about, I haven't seen anything focused.  No speeches, rallying cries, no 'centre stage', etc.  It's almost like they arrived and said 'now what' and didn't have an answer.


I think it's more a sign that people are fed up with governments of all levels, and are taking to the streets to be seen, and to try to force the government to acknowledge them.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> People drinking on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487518296668721153


Yeah…these guys are awesome. 

Can’t wait for people here to defend that.


----------



## Quirky (29 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I think it's more a sign that people are fed up with governments of all levels, and are taking to the streets to be seen, and to try to force the government to acknowledge them.



Exactly I don't think it's about truckers and vaccine mandates anymore. People are using this to vent their frustrations for the nonsense of our inept government from the past 2 years.


----------



## lenaitch (29 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I think it's more a sign that people are fed up with governments of all levels, and are taking to the streets to be seen, and to try to force the government to acknowledge them.


By doing what?  Milling about?  Sure, massed presence has value, but some drove several thousand K for this?  Nobody is in the buildings most are wandering around in front of.  If you want to be acknowledged or send a message via mere presence, stand at somebody's door on Hallowe'en; at least you get candy.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> You have been paying attention right?  Restrictions in Ontario are being loosened in a few days with the goal of removing them in March.



Until the next variant pops up. 



dimsum said:


> People drinking on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487518296668721153


Side bar: Using "UNSAT" in corrispondance is obnoxious.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Nicely summed up from multiple directions via LinkedIn ...


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Team red is getting perilously close to upsetting a very sizable portion of their 905 & 604 base, I think. Gerald “I’m no longer working for my university pal, Justin” Butts is probably crunching the secret LPC survey numbers and realizing that Trudeau’s sweeping “fringe” comments are starting to build back-pressure. I say that within 48-72 hours we see Trudeau give some thin, non-apology on the issue and that some simply experienced his statement differently than he intended, blah, blah, blah…lest he and Team Red own sliding polling  numbers in 23/24…



The LPC is well aware that in 2015 Harper lost the election, and that in the two subsequent efforts, their leader has failed to get a majority (even after papering the streets with money in 2021).  If not for the CPC ineptitude of Scheer followed by O'Toole (a Canadian version of Scheer), 2021 would have seen a change of government.


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> People drinking on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487518296668721153


There's that damn Quebec flag again...


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Like the Black Block thugs clomping in to BLM rallies?  Not invited, but show up anyway.  No one that I’ve seen hasn’t acknowledged that there are some extreme folks latching on.
> 
> Or do you mean that a large fraction of Canada’s independent truckers are Nazis?



This is not and has never been an independent trucker rally.  The majority of those attending are not truckers - driving a F150 does not make you a trucker.  Nor does having a riding lawn mower.  The main organizers are skilled grifters who have used the same recipe many times.  It's following the time honoured technique of

1. Create an event.
2. Create controversy and fundraise from the marks.
3. Profit.

(See: Ezra, time and time again)


----------



## armrdsoul77 (29 Jan 2022)

CityNews


"Terry Fox monument defaced amid Ottawa vaccine mandate protest "​


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> This is not and has never been an independent trucker rally.  The majority of those attending are not truckers - driving a F150 does not make you a trucker.  Nor does having a riding lawn mower.  The main organizers are skilled grifters who have used the same recipe many times.  It's following the time honoured technique of
> 
> 1. Create an event.
> 2. Create controversy and fundraise from the marks.
> ...


Seems like an awfully convenient way to dismiss their concerns without a shred of proof.


----------



## OldTanker (29 Jan 2022)

Hmm. Nazi flags. Confederate Flags. I think the "freedom convoy" could use a lesson in history. Not to mention irony.


----------



## Quirky (29 Jan 2022)

armrdsoul77 said:


> CityNews
> 
> 
> "Terry Fox monument defaced amid Ottawa vaccine mandate protest "​


I wouldn't call putting a hat on his head and wrapping a flag around his back defacing.

Spray painting and tearing down past PMs and other statues in the name of wokeness is defacing.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Seems like an awfully convenient way to dismiss their concerns without a shred of proof.



There are known right wing agents running this.  There are press contacts threatening to hang journalists.

There are people with concerns they are trying to express.

There are others trying to cynically profit off it.


----------



## dimsum (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Seems like an awfully convenient way to dismiss their concerns without a shred of proof.


If they wanted to separate themselves from the extremists, they failed.

They will be judged by the company they keep.


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Jan 2022)

Protests draw idiots and opportunists.

Idiots and opportunists at protests draw other idiots and opportunists who like to draw attention to the idiots and opportunists at protests.

Best to just ignore both groups.

Meanwhile, a lot of people are blowing off steam, many for reasons not particularly connected to vax mandates for cross-border truckers.  It would be foolish to react to that by trying to close the lid on the cooker, but some authorities have been known to be that stupid.

Not all the truck drivers I saw on Hwy 1 blowing horns today were white boys, by any stretch of imagination.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Quirky said:


> I wouldn't call putting a hat on his head and wrapping a flag around his back defacing.
> 
> Spray painting and tearing down past PMs and other statues in the name of wokeness is defacing.


Doing anything to the statue is not on.  Defending that sort of thing isn’t either.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)




----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> If they wanted to separate themselves from the extremists, they failed.
> 
> They will be judged by the company they keep.


Now do Antifa, NDP, Liberal Party, Free Palestine protests, BLM...

You'll find idiots latching onto causes everywhere, but it seems like only "right wing" ones get exposed and full court pressure from the media to find them. Keep searching for that confirmation bias and ignore the issue. Better yet, run your own counter protest. You can call it the "Vax pass, masks and lockdowns forever Convoy 2022". You'll probably get a couple people to show up.



Remius said:


> View attachment 68342


Maybe Gen Eyre should place a 24/7 sentry on the Tomb like the US does, probably stop morons from doing this every few weeks.


----------



## Happy Guy (29 Jan 2022)

I was walking on the parkway by the Rideau Canal and I saw some of the protesters skating on the canal with flags and walking by the canal.  All the shops at the Rideau Centre, large mall in downtown Ottawa, were closed.  I had stopped to use the washroom (old man tiny bladder).  The protesters inside were not wearing masks and yelling "Freedom".  I was conspicuous because I was wearing a mask, limping with my cane, not carrying / wearing the Cdn flag and not yelling "Freedom" every few minutes.  With the exception of them not wearing masks and yelling "Freedom" they were generally respectful and obeyed the rules.  I didn't see any Nazi flags but I stayed away from Parliament Hill.
What did upset me was seeing the Cdn Flag being carried on a wooden stick hanging from the bumpers of many, many, many pickup trucks. When the pickup trucks stopped the Cdn Flag drooped and touched the ground. The flag was sullied by dirty snow and slush. They obviously didn't know that the national flag should never touch the ground.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Now do Antifa, NDP, Liberal Party, Free Palestine protests, BLM...
> 
> You'll find idiots latching onto causes everywhere, but it seems like only "right wing" ones get exposed and full court pressure from the media to find them. Keep searching for that confirmation bias and ignore the issue. Better yet, run your own counter protest. You can call it the "Vax pass, masks and lockdowns forever Convoy 2022". You'll probably get a couple people to show up.
> 
> ...


Stop the whataboutism.  If antifa was doing that crap we’d be all over it too. None of those groups are there right now dancing on the tomb , carrying  confederate flags or Nazi flags etc êtes.

I have to ask why you are ok with this stuff?


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

I have no issues with the protest btw.  Just the idiots.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

And speaking of idiots…


----------



## SeaKingTacco (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> And speaking of idiots…
> 
> View attachment 68343View attachment 68343


Hey, when did Ottawa get a CN tower? And summer in January?


----------



## Happy Guy (29 Jan 2022)

Isn't this a picture of the Toronto Raptors after they won the NBA championship in 2019?


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

Read the thread.  It's obviously a joke.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487191603722678273


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Read the thread.  It's obviously a joke.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487191603722678273


LOL.  That’s actually funny.


----------



## kev994 (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> And speaking of idiots…
> 
> View attachment 68343View attachment 68343


CN tower’s in Ottawa now?


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

Remember:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487541238798581762


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Jan 2022)

> The protesters inside were not wearing masks and yelling "Freedom".



You saw Mel Gibson?  Cool.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

Pro tip: Check what happens to the slogan on your ball cap when you put on your hoodie.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487482852719665154


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Quick read of reports.

Crowds are thinning a bit as the sun goes down. (Temp drops fast after dark here)

Fireworks set off.

Drones being used illegally over the Hill

A fire has been set on Wellington to stay warm.

Someone threw a full beer can at Evan Solomon missing him

Crowd seems to be getting angrier but otherwise things look fairly tame

Press conference set for tomorrow “somewhere” after a prayer ceremony on the Hill.

City preparing in case this goes into the week.


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Jan 2022)

> None of those groups are there right now dancing on the tomb , carrying  confederate flags or Nazi flags etc êtes.



All true.  The thing is, Nazis and Confederates are bad people because of the things they do.  Other people that do the same things nowadays are just as bad.  But a lot of prominent Canadians have "interests" with some of those people.  So I wonder whether Nazis and Confederates are as bad as I thought.


----------



## kev994 (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Quick read of reports.
> 
> Crowds are thinning a bit as the sun goes down. (Temp drops fast after dark here)
> 
> ...


The real story is: have they found somewhere to poop?


----------



## Kilted (29 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> You saw Mel Gibson?  Cool.


Some of their beliefs are about as accurate as the movie Braveheart.


----------



## Kilted (29 Jan 2022)

kev994 said:


> The real story is: have they found somewhere to poop?


I'm guessing that no one brought orange garbage bags.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Team red is getting perilously close to upsetting a very sizable portion of their 905 & 604 base, I think.



This Brampton, ON ( 905 ) trucker doesn't seem much into it. 



> Almost one in five Canadian truckers is South Asian, but many don't see themselves represented in the trucker convoy.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487436081582718983


----------



## Blackadder1916 (29 Jan 2022)

kev994 said:


> The real story is: have they found somewhere to poop?



A suggestion . . . Portable Toilet Rentals in Ottawa, ONT | Ottawa Toilet Rentals


----------



## Kilted (29 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> A suggestion . . . Portable Toilet Rentals in Ottawa, ONT | Ottawa Toilet Rentals


Probably don't have enough to keep up to that ratio. I can speak from experience, 1 x Rifle Company will fill 1 x porta potty to the point that it cannot be used anymore in approximately 3 or 4 days.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> Probably don't have enough to keep up to that ratio. I can speak from experience, 1 x Rifle Company will fill 1 x porta potty to the point that it cannot be used anymore in approximately 3 or 4 days.


They didn’t even get a permit for the event so I doubt porta potties were planned


----------



## kev994 (29 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> Probably don't have enough to keep up to that ratio. I can speak from experience, 1 x Rifle Company will fill 1 x porta potty to the point that it cannot be used anymore in approximately 3 or 4 days.


For $6 Mil I hope they can get more than one porta pottie


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> On both sides I'm told ...
> 
> And what is their goal?  The MOU goal of "sign this or resign, GG & Senate?
> 
> ...


Their goal is to end the mandates. Everything has morphed since they planned this, including that MOU. You appear to be the only one here that has problems believing its not a sticky point. They really got no support for it. I've been on a lot of sites and nobody even mentions it. It's hyperbolic and ridiculous. Everyone knows it. But go ahead and keep painting everyone participating as morons because you're fixated on that statement which no longer applies. It's  like condemning everyone because some guy has a nazi flag. Or complaining because some guy named Pat does things you don't  like. Mind there's a shitload of pissants I like to see resign and maybe it is time to move away from our present system and monarchy. Perhaps it's time to become a republic in our own right.
As far as your picture, why should anyone believe the message from government sources? I saw on the news right now trudeau and his family have been moved to a secret location for safety. 🤣 Safety from what? So much for isolating in his cottage. Didn't  take long for that excuse to fizzle. Our leader has shown himself for what he is. Canada has seen, the Emporer has no clothes and a serious lack of intestinal fortitude

I find it telling that some of those that are the most vocal against Canadians exercising their Rights and Freedoms need to go down into the weeds and find the tiniest, mostly unrelated items to whine about. Things that really have no bearing on the majority of the thousands of people that support this initiative.  Anything to poke it in the eye and try to spin havoc and hate. Of course, like the boy that cried wolf, they are becoming irrelevant as people tire of their strawmen and mountains out of molehill concerns. MOO.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> Probably don't have enough to keep up to that ratio. I can speak from experience, 1 x Rifle Company will fill 1 x porta potty to the point that it cannot be used anymore in approximately 3 or 4 days.


We normally see bigger crowds on Canada Day and they have tons of porta potties set up on the Hill that get serviced throughout the day.  There is a public washroom near the Queen Vic statue but it’s closed during the winter months.

That leaves local businesses, many of which were closed.  There is the mall but they closed that earlier today because the anti vax crowd refused to wear masks.

Even with a permit I doubt the porta potties would have been allowed on the hill.  The city might have approved some for Wellington or maybe one of the parcs but then with the trucks blocking the street I doubt that any service vehicle would be able to get in to clean them.  

So yeah, poop might be an issue.


----------



## OceanBonfire (29 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> People drinking on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487518296668721153





Remius said:


> View attachment 68342



Holy moly am I mad when I saw this.

Now in the news:









						Top Canadian defence officials condemn protesters dancing on Tomb of the Unknown Soldier
					

One video on Twitter showed an individual jumping on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at the National War Memorial, yelling, "Freedom."



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> There are known right wing agents running this.  There are press contacts threatening to hang journalists.
> 
> There are people with concerns they are trying to express.
> 
> There are others trying to cynically profit off it.


That would be every left wing protest I saw from my office which was right beside "Protest central". It's hard to keep other groups from joining in. Historically it wasn't the Communists or the Islamist's that started revolts, they were/are just better at taking them over when the time is right.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> As far as your picture, why should anyone believe the message from government sources?


DJ Chocolate Milk has a non gvt pic up on Twitter.


----------



## Rd651 (29 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Hey, when did Ottawa get a CN tower? And summer in January?


Love it...Great Comment!!! LOL


----------



## Rd651 (29 Jan 2022)

kev994 said:


> For $6 Mil I hope they can get more than one porta pottie


Haha, you think the "trucker"s are getting much of that money.....lol...


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Stop the whataboutism.  If antifa was doing that crap we’d be all over it too. None of those groups are there right now dancing on the tomb , carrying  confederate flags or Nazi flags etc êtes.
> 
> I have to ask why you are ok with this stuff?


This entire thread is whataboutism. COVID vs flu, covid vs polio vax, masking vs seat belts. Sorry you're just waking up to that, but if you can't see the double standard then you're not paying attention.

This also isn't a Maoist struggle session where I have to outline all the things I dislike to prove my loyalty. In fact I think its appalling that people are assuming in others that their default position isn't "using Nazi symbology is wrong". This isn't new though, when we have the leader of a G7 nation calling people who disagree with him racists on a regular basis and local journalists have been calling right of center folks Nazis for years https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...s-apology-for-nazi-swastika-cartoon-1.2563156

I'd even argue that only one person between Trudeau and the moron with a Nazi/Confederate flag has worn blackface before in a manner to mock another race.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jan 2022)

Kilted said:


> Probably don't have enough to keep up to that ratio. I can speak from experience, 1 x Rifle Company will fill 1 x porta potty to the point that it cannot be used anymore in approximately 3 or 4 days.


Someone in your ops shop isn't doing their job my friend.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I'd even argue that only one person between Trudeau and the moron with a Nazi/Confederate flag has worn blackface before in a manner to mock another race.



Been a couple of elections since then.









						How did Canadians react to Trudeau's blackface photos? With a big meh, polls find
					

Forty-two per cent of those polled by Abacus Data said they weren’t really bothered by seeing the prime minister in brownface and blackface




					nationalpost.com


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Been a couple of elections since then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I didn't know if you are elected after wearing blackface multiple times it makes it completely OK and definitely not racist.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

Hmm. I guess there are still some that refuse to separate bad actors from the legitimate protest. Like to lump them all together and then use their big brush to paint the whole thing as a far right bunch of rednecks to try delegitimize the whole thing.

I don't like those fringe groups being there. I don't  like what they stand for.
BUT
If they are breaking no laws and are exercising their rights of free assembly and the right to free expression, on public property, who am I or anyone else to tell them they can't  be there? After all, our rights and freedoms are the underpinning of the protest. If you have a hard on for the stars & bars, petition your liberal government to outlaw it. The nazi flag? Outlaw it like Germany. I'm  sure trudeau would love to help you with that.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> This entire thread is whataboutism. COVID vs flu, covid vs polio vax, masking vs seat belts. Sorry you're just waking up to that, but if you can't see the double standard then you're not paying attention.
> 
> This also isn't a Maoist struggle session where I have to outline all the things I dislike to prove my loyalty. In fact I think its appalling that people are assuming in others that their default position isn't "using Nazi symbology is wrong". This isn't new though, when we have the leader of a G7 nation calling people who disagree with him racists on a regular basis and local journalists have been calling right of center folks Nazis for years https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...s-apology-for-nazi-swastika-cartoon-1.2563156
> 
> I'd even argue that only one person between Trudeau and the moron with a Nazi/Confederate flag has worn blackface before in a manner to mock another race.


I just find it odd that anyone here deflects things like nazi flags and dancing on the tomb of the unknown soldier.  But if some are ok with it we’ll have to agree to disagree.  I mean, the first reaction to the tomb dancing, terry fox thing and nazi flags is to point to BLM, Antifa and essentially “so what”.   Yeah ok…

As I said it’s the crazies.  But some seem fine with it.

But as others have mentioned this protest has now taken on a whole other identity because of these clowns. 

The message is lost and it’s now about them.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Hmm. I guess there are still some that refuse to separate bad actors from the legitimate protest. Like to lump them all together and then use their big brush to paint the whole thing as a far right bunch of rednecks to try delegitimize the whole thing.
> 
> I don't like those fringe groups being there. I don't  like what they stand for.
> BUT
> If they are breaking no laws and are exercising their rights of free assembly and the right to free expression, on public property, who am I or anyone else to tell them they can't  be there? After all, our rights and freedoms are the underpinning of the protest. If you have a hard on for the stars & bars, petition your liberal government to outlaw it. The nazi flag? Outlaw it like Germany. I'm  sure trudeau would love to help you with that.


No one has said they don’t have a right to protest.  And I have literally pointed out the bad actors.

I don’t like either flag.  I don’t like dancing on the tomb.  If you do or find that ok then you do you. But I’m not shocked by your position.   We’ll have to disagree.  I have no issues calling it out or mocking it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Been a couple of elections since then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did we get a statute of limitation on blatant racism? Just because everyone knows his excuses and apologies were nothing more than a bad actor's attempt to placate his supporters, doesn't mean it should be forgiven and forgotten. He is a racist and hasn't  learned anything from those episodes. Except to make sure everyone's  camera phone goes in a bag before the party starts.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The nazi flag? Outlaw it like Germany. I'm  sure trudeau would love to help you with that.


I'd personally like to see them stripped of their citizenship and dropped off in the rouge zone in France.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

If you're a male in his sixties and vaccine hesitant, this one's for you.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430558578952257541


----------



## Blackadder1916 (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If you're a male *in his sixties* and vaccine hesitant, this one's for you.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430558578952257541



Sixties?  Try again.









						Young Men Lead Surge in Viagra Use
					

New research indicates that the use of Viagra skyrocketed 312% among men aged 18-45 between 1998 and 2002.




					www.webmd.com
				





> Pfizer spokesman Daniel Watts says the *typical Viagra user is age 53* and that his company doesn't keep records of users younger than 33. Company data indicates that 8% of prescriptions are written for men between ages 34 and 40. That compares with 26% of prescriptions for men in their 40s, 36% for men in their 50s, and 22% for men in their 60s.​


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2022)

I suspect it would be an interesting ATIP to ask for Viagra and Cialis prescriptions filled on deployed operations where fraternization is prohibited...









						New CDS Gen. Jonathan Vance (split fm CDS spec thread)
					

LGen Vance is it.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/lt-gen-jonathan-vance-appointed-next-chief-of-defence-staff-1.3050238




					army.ca


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I suspect it would be an interesting ATIP to ask for Viagra and Cialis prescriptions filled on deployed operations where fraternization is prohibited...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe he just liked pulling his pecker?


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I just find it odd that anyone here deflects things like nazi flags and dancing on the tomb of the unknown soldier.  But if some are ok with it we’ll have to agree to disagree.  I mean, the first reaction to the tomb dancing, terry fox thing and nazi flags is to point to BLM, Antifa and essentially “so what”.   Yeah ok…


No, my first reaction was "those guys are f@#$ing idiots" and "this is why we need a 24/7/365 guard". But you don't get to read my mind and I'm not going to post all my personal thoughts here. I haven't seen anyone here trying to justify what those folks did, but you're completely incapable of seeing the double standard being applied to the bad actors receiving the focus of a "right wing" protest, but the same heat and light doesn't show up for a left wing protest. You're spinning what people are saying to meet the bias you want to see.

Edit: Added 24/7/365 guard because otherwise it doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> No, my first reaction was "those guys are f@#$ing idiots" and "this is why we need a 24/7/365". But you don't get to read my mind and I'm not going to post all my personal thoughts here. I haven't seen anyone here trying to justify what those folks did, but you're completely incapable of seeing the double standard being applied to the bad actors receiving the focus of a "right wing" protest, but the same heat and light doesn't show up for a left wing protest. You're spinning what people are saying to meet the bias you want to see.


I can’t read your mind correct but can read what you post.  You provided whataboutism. Simple.  

Someone posts a Nazi flag. Someone says that’s awful and that turns into a diatribe on the left and Trudeau. Lol. 

I’ve been watching this thing all day. And I get some people don’t follow the MSM but the whole narrative today is that the protest is peaceful with a few bad actors.  Literally the same stuff posted here. 

The CDS, MND, even O’toole have all tested and made statements about these bad actors.  They are calling them out. 

I see no issue with this. 

So I don’t know where you assume I have some bias that I can’t see what everyone else is seeing.


----------



## winds_13 (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> No, my first reaction was "those guys are f@#$ing idiots" and "this is why we need a 24/7/365". But you don't get to read my mind and I'm not going to post all my personal thoughts here. I haven't seen anyone here trying to justify what those folks did, but you're completely incapable of seeing the double standard being applied to the bad actors receiving the focus of a "right wing" protest, but the same heat and light doesn't show up for a left wing protest. You're spinning what people are saying to meet the bias you want to see.


What really confounds me is that protests centered around individual rights and civil liberties have become hallmarks or "right wing" protests. By definition, the political stance they are making is one for _liberalism_. The same liberal values that the LPC was founded upon. Apparently the only Canadian political parties advocating for liberal values these days are the CPC and PPC. Trudeau, despite his flaws, at least used to be something of a champion for human rights... used to. It is a rather sad state of affairs.


----------



## kkwd (29 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If you're a male in his sixties and vaccine hesitant, this one's for you.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430558578952257541


That's opening up a can of worms. It was the largest judgement at the time but Glaxo Smith Kline beat them 3 years later.
Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History
10 Biggest Pharmaceutical Settlements in History


----------



## lenaitch (29 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Their goal is to end the mandates. Everything has morphed since they planned this, including that MOU. You appear to be the only one here that has problems believing its not a sticky point. They really got no support for it. I've been on a lot of sites and nobody even mentions it. It's hyperbolic and ridiculous. Everyone knows it. But go ahead and keep painting everyone participating as morons because you're fixated on that statement which no longer applies. It's  like condemning everyone because some guy has a nazi flag. Or complaining because some guy named Pat does things you don't  like. *Mind there's a shitload of pissants I like to see resign and maybe it is time to move away from our present system and monarchy. Perhaps it's time to become a republic in our own right.*
> As far as your picture, why should anyone believe the message from government sources? I saw on the news right now trudeau and his family have been moved to a secret location for safety. 🤣 Safety from what? So much for isolating in his cottage. Didn't  take long for that excuse to fizzle. Our leader has shown himself for what he is. Canada has seen, the Emporer has no clothes and a serious lack of intestinal fortitude
> 
> I find it telling that some of those that are the most vocal against Canadians exercising their Rights and Freedoms need to go down into the weeds and find the tiniest, mostly unrelated items to whine about. Things that really have no bearing on the majority of the thousands of people that support this initiative.  Anything to poke it in the eye and try to spin havoc and hate. Of course, like the boy that cried wolf, they are becoming irrelevant as people tire of their strawmen and mountains out of molehill concerns. MOO.


Yes.  That will make it a-l-l-l better.


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I can’t read your mind correct but can read what you post.  You provided whataboutism. Simple.
> 
> Someone posts a Nazi flag. Someone says that’s awful and that turns into a diatribe on the left and Trudeau. Lol.
> 
> ...


How many Hail Mary's do we need to condemn morons? You're wasting bandwidth on human beings who have demonstrated they're not worth it. The entire focus of the debate on this forum has been folks like yourself who focus on the bad actors, to build a narrative. The same narrative Trudeau wants that they're all bad people and unCanadian. Maybe if we actually just listened to what is a massive protest by Parliament Hill standards, we'd get somewhere.

Or you can allow mandates to carry on, that will expand to include whatever flavour of the day is. I have still yet to see any scientific evidence that a vaccine passport has any effect on reduction of COVID-19 transmission (especially in light of Omicron), and the Government who is mandating these restrictions hasn't produced it.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I don't always agree with Russell Brand, but he's an individual who's actually willing to have discussions with people on the other side of his views. He nails in when speaking about the convoy:



Déjà vu


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Yes.  That will make it a-l-l-l better.


So you don't like people voicing suggestions that go against your status quo. Instead of voicing a logical alternative or defending our current setup, you dismiss it with sarcasm. Let's  just keep trudging down that same old path that is a shambles. The country is in chaos, divided and broke. Our government is a cruel joke. Your system seems to be working so well. I don't  know if a Republic is the way to go, but I'm  willing to discuss it instead of off handedly dismissing it without merit.


----------



## Remius (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> How many Hail Mary's do we need to condemn morons? You're wasting bandwidth on human beings who have demonstrated they're not worth it. The entire focus of the debate on this forum has been folks like yourself who focus on the bad actors, to build a narrative. The same narrative Trudeau wants that they're all bad people and unCanadian. Maybe if we actually just listened to what is a massive protest by Parliament Hill standards, we'd get somewhere.
> 
> Or you can allow mandates to carry on, that will expand to include whatever flavour of the day is. I have still yet to see any scientific evidence that a vaccine passport has any effect on reduction of COVID-19 transmission (especially in light of Omicron), and the Government who is mandating these restrictions hasn't produced it.


Because a majority of Canadians are not on board with the message? 

The only people screwing up the message is this protest.  They lost the initiative and it’s been taken over.  

I have said it multiple times, they aren’t bad people.  Just being misled and misinformed by bad people.  The faces and spokespeople for this event have taken over the messaging. 

We are literally starting to reopen on Feb 1.  In a phased cautious approach.  This protest is about a year late.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> How many Hail Mary's do we need to condemn morons? You're wasting bandwidth on human beings who have demonstrated they're not worth it. The entire focus of the debate on this forum has been folks like yourself who focus on the bad actors, to build a narrative. The same narrative Trudeau wants that they're all bad people and unCanadian. Maybe if we actually just listened to what is a massive protest by Parliament Hill standards, we'd get somewhere.
> 
> Or you can allow mandates to carry on, that will expand to include whatever flavour of the day is. I have still yet to see any scientific evidence that a vaccine passport has any effect on reduction of COVID-19 transmission (especially in light of Omicron), and the Government who is mandating these restrictions hasn't produced it.



Some people(none here of course) will always agree with things like mandates or government edicts. It gives them the opportunity to be part of a larger identifiable group. It allows them to point at others and feel superior.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2022)

Then there are those (none here of course) who will always whine about anything the Govt does because their guy/girl didn't win.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

More bad actors giving the protest a bad name.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487630726111576068


----------



## Mick (30 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Some people(none here of course) will always agree with things like mandates or government edicts._* It gives them the opportunity to be part of a larger identifiable group. It allows them to point at others and feel superior.*_



I don't mean to be dismissive, but this concept can just as easily be applied to the protesters and all of the "others" that have joined them.


----------



## winds_13 (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Because a majority of Canadians are not on board with the message?
> 
> The only people screwing up the message is this protest.  They lost the initiative and it’s been taken over.
> 
> ...


Again, you say that the protest is a year too late because Ontario, specifically, is about to transition to a "phased cautious" reopening plan. Yet, there are still no plans of loosening/removal of restrictions or mandates imposed on unvaccinated inividuals, not in Ontario nor in Canada as a whole. Instead, there are cries for increasingly punitive measures to be taken against unvaccinated citizens, the recent trucker mandate was just one of the lastest measures.

Unvaccinated people cannot freely travel within the country, they cannot work for the federal government or federally regulated industries (amongst others), in most (all?) provinces they cannot eat indoors or attend cultural events. In Quebec they cannot even go to Walmart, let alone the announcement of targetted taxation.

How is this protest late when there are no plans to ammeliorate any of the protesters main grievances (ie. the end to vaccine mandates and passport systems)? Or are you simply suggesting that they should have started this protest earlier, when the government started rolling out restrictions that divide society into groups by their vaccination status (like around September, just after the federal election)?


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> ... As far as your picture, why should anyone believe the message from government sources? ...


As others have said, there's evidence of all kinds out there.  Good turnout?  No doubt - even the deep state web cams showed that.  

You still haven't answered by earlier question, though, about how willing the protesters would be to meet in the middle to create a win-win for all sides.


Colin Parkinson said:


> That would be every left wing protest I saw from my office which was right beside "Protest central". It's hard to keep other groups from joining in ...


And that hasn't stopped a variety of people from painting _those_ protests with a broad brush based on the behaviour of the idiots, so it makes sense for any group to be called on keeping a grip on the extremists lest the whole group be painted with the same brush.


OceanBonfire said:


> Holy moly am I mad when I saw this.
> 
> Now in the news:
> 
> ...


Not to worry - all propaganda by the bought-and-paid-for media, right?


----------



## Gunnar (30 Jan 2022)

I think, as earlier correctly pointed out in the Russel Brand video, you need to consider that all mass movements have outliers.  There are dumb people, angry people, frightened people, failed to plan people, and uninformed people.  People also do things for perfectly valid reasons that are crystal-clear in their minds which do not translate to the observer, or communicate the wanted message.  Sensationalizing these outliers to provoke the reader _is_ propaganda.  It ascribes too much importance to the actions of a minority within the group to paint the group with a rather broad brush.  There is a vast difference between one yahoo getting carried away with the emotions of the mob, and an organised attack on our institutions.  Consider:  “following our riots at Parliament Hill, the group will participate in urinating on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.  For obvious reasons, men are preferred for this activity.  Sign up sheets are available at protest headquarters, we’re hoping to have at least 100 in attendance.”  But of course, this isn’t what happened.  All you have is one frustrated/angry/excited/maladroit yahoo doing something unsat.  Don’t make it more than it is.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Again, you say that the protest is a year too late because Ontario, specifically, is about to transition to a "phased cautious" reopening plan. Yet, there are still no plans of loosening/removal of restrictions or mandates imposed on unvaccinated inividuals, not in Ontario nor in Canada as a whole. Instead, there are cries for increasingly punitive measures to be taken against unvaccinated citizens, the recent trucker mandate was just one of the lastest measures.
> 
> Unvaccinated people cannot freely travel within the country, they cannot work for the federal government or federally regulated industries (amongst others), in most (all?) provinces they cannot eat indoors or attend cultural events. In Quebec they cannot even go to Walmart, let alone the announcement of targetted taxation.
> 
> How is this protest late when there are no plans to ammeliorate any of the protesters main grievances (ie. the end to vaccine mandates and passport systems)? Or are you simply suggesting that they should have started this protest earlier, when the government started rolling out restrictions that divide society into groups by their vaccination status (like around September, just after the federal election)?


I don’t agree with punitive measures like a health tax or denial of medical service.  None of that is in place, just cries from a smaller segment.  Quebec has mentioned it but it doesn’t seem to have taken hold elsewhere.  So for now it’s talk.

Unvaccinated people are in fact free to travel the country.  HOW they do it though is limited by their choice.  Unvaccinated people can work for the federal government.  They need to meet the conditions of employment. 
Unvaccnated people can eat in a restaurant or bar provided they meet the conditions.

None of what you have listed that is being limited is a violation of Rights.  Just privileges that need conditions to be met.  

With restrictions loosening and return to partial normality yes this is too late.  Because as some people have mentioned, the unvaccinated are going to get left behind.   Eventually things may go back to the way it was but until we are out of the pandemic that probably won’t happen.  

People had a chance to voice their displeasure and remove the PM in the last election.  Instead they returned him with a stop mucking around and get back to it mandate.  And yeah, I’m sure someone will point out the percentage that actually voted for him.  It’s still more than the percentage of people that are anti mandate, anti vax and anti Trudeau. And way more than who is showing up to protest.  Just so we are clear I did not vote for the LPC.

 So if 10% can demand and end to it why do you think 90% should be ignored?   Here is the thing.  EVERYONE wants to be done with this.  Where people differ is the HOW.  

I and a far larger majority disagree with you and the minority about the how.  There is some common ground that could be met.  I would be in favour of regular testing.  I would be in favour of eventual accommodations for certain lines of federal work.

   This current protest group sees no middle ground. In fact their message has gotten a little crazy with things like Trudeau stepping down and dissolving government.  

Their message has been hijacked and they lost the initiative.  There is a press conference today.  It will be interesting to see who speaks and what is said.


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> So you don't like people voicing suggestions that go against your status quo. Instead of voicing a logical alternative or defending our current setup, you dismiss it with sarcasm. Let's  just keep trudging down that same old path that is a shambles. The country is in chaos, divided and broke. Our government is a cruel joke. Your system seems to be working so well. I don't  know if a Republic is the way to go, but I'm  willing to discuss it instead of off handedly dismissing it without merit.


Voice all you want (which you did).  That was simply my response to the suggestion that a different form of government will, in and of itself,  somehow make all of our problems go away.  Recent observations in countries like the US and France suggest that they are not immune from the same issues.

We may go down that road on day - many countries have - but the transition process alone will be highly divisive.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I'd even argue that only one person between Trudeau and the moron with a Nazi/Confederate flag has worn blackface before in a manner to mock another race.



So dressing up as Aladdin is racist??

I mean, people see it that way _now_, but I'm pretty sure people have dressed up as someone (be they black, indigenous or Oriental) before. Heck, some probably still do.  

On the other hand, wasn't there a huge uproar against certain groups who said children dressed for Halloween as Pocahontas, Mulan, etc. was cultural appropriation?  Can't have it both ways.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

They got the attention they wanted.

I suspect more Canadians will vote next election.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> Not going to dispute that the convoy numbers were well over slated as well.



Have to see what effect they have on the food supply. 

Reports indicate the big carriers like Day and Ross etc. are not involved.

South-Asian truckers were mentioned up-thread.  I read they steered clear of it.

I suspect most truckers are more concerned about wages and benefits, health and safety, working conditions etc.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> So dressing up as Aladdin is racist??


Is being white, painting yourself black and making monkey noises and acting like a monkey not racist?


----------



## Kilted (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Someone in your ops shop isn't doing their job my friend.


Defensive position was moved last minute placing the intended porta pottys in our arcs.


----------



## Gunnar (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Correct.  That is the current condition in place.  Like being refused service for refusing to show ID for booze,  wearing shoes and shirts.  If you don’t meet those then you don’t get served.
> 
> This isn’t a new concept.
> 
> The vaccine is available to everyone.  No one is being denied that.  Everyone has the opportunity to meet those conditions.  What they choose to do is their choice to make.


So, what you mean to say is that the unvaccinated ARE denied service, you’re just OK with that.  Your phraseology is somewhat disengenuous.

I think the basic bone of contention here is the right of government in a free society to mandate specific courses of action and to override an individual’s choices based on their loosely defined definition of the public good.  It is perceived as a betrayal of the social contract when, not only does government mandate a specific course of action curtailing freedom of choice, conscience and bodily autonomy, but invokes their own “cancel culture” on anyone who does not comply.  Are you a qualified doctor who doesn’t agree?  Well, your medical knowledge is worthless, because we said so.  Are you concerned about the well-being of your child, and refuse to give consent for vaccination?  Well, we’ll suddenly make it legal for 12-year olds to make long-term decisions that could affect their lives in defiance of the parent’s wishes.  Shut up and do what you’re told, or you’re out.

If the vaccine were as simple as Smallpox vaccine, then you wouldn’t get this kind of pushback.  Take the vaccine, wipe out the contagion, live happily ever after.  Most people would agree with that, and the outliers would be such a small portion of society that herd immunity would either apply, or they’d be so unlikely to be affected nobody would care.  But people really have an issue being forced to take vaccines against a virus that kills 0.04% of those that contract it, and which isn’t guaranteed to work anyway.  People don’t see the point of draconian enforcement when the best it can promise is a “reduction in symptoms”.

The somewhat shaky argument for the case, coupled with radical changes to the historical way we have implemented health mandates, and lots of weasel words and shady practices surrounding the method of enforcement naturally puts people on edge.  People do not trust authoritarian leadership, particularly when they are in the business of supressing dissent.  People do not trust requests for their “voluntary” compliance based on the threat of societal exclusion.  This is a fundamental failure in leadership on behalf of our leaders.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

As for what the voters decide, 









						Ten Demographic Clues to How Your Riding Might Vote Monday | The Tyee
					

Many visible minorities? Liberal. Wide open empty spaces? Conservative.




					thetyee.ca
				



Many visible minorities? Liberal. Wide open empty spaces? Conservative.​




​
​


----------



## dimsum (30 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Have to see what effect they have on the food supply.
> 
> Reports indicate the big carriers like Day and Ross etc. are not involved.
> 
> ...


I live right in the thick of it.  Horns have been going pretty much non-stop outside.

I can confirm that the trucks (of which it's a small minority) are not from the major carriers.  Some have also covered up company names, but that's an even smaller subset.  They seem to be independents.

I can also confirm that I have not seen one single non-Caucasian truck/car/pick-up driver.  Lots of folks in "camouflage" though.  But I'm a sample size of 1 and I refused to go towards Parliament.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Gunnar said:


> So, what you mean to say is that the unvaccinated ARE denied service, you’re just OK with that.  Your phraseology is somewhat disengenuous.
> 
> I think the basic bone of contention here is the right of government in a free society to mandate specific courses of action and to override an individual’s choices based on their loosely defined definition of the public good.  It is perceived as a betrayal of the social contract when, not only does government mandate a specific course of action curtailing freedom of choice, conscience and bodily autonomy, but invokes their own “cancel culture” on anyone who does not comply.  Are you a qualified doctor who doesn’t agree?  Well, your medical knowledge is worthless, because we said so.  Are you concerned about the well-being of your child, and refuse to give consent for vaccination?  Well, we’ll suddenly make it legal for 12-year olds to make long-term decisions that could affect their lives in defiance of the parent’s wishes.  Shut up and do what you’re told, or you’re out.
> 
> ...


And yet 90% have gotten with the program. 

I’ve stated it multiple times.  I accept that society will set parameters to be able to participate in said society.  People are free to make their choices.  And the consequences of said choices.  Yes, they can’t eat in. They aren’t being denied a Big Mac combo.  They just can’t have it in the restaurant. But they can still have their Big Mac right now.  Or actually as of 1 feb in Ontario since we ALL can’t eat in right now. 



I’ll be happy when this is over.  But sadly it is not.  We are getting there but until then the unvaccinated can sit out whatever privileges society normally affords them.


----------



## Gunnar (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> And yet 90% have gotten with the program.
> 
> I’ve stated it multiple times.  I accept that society will set parameters to be able to participate in said society.  People are free to make their choices.  And the consequences of said choices.  Yes, they can’t eat in. They aren’t being denied a Big Mac combo.  They just can’t have it in the restaurant. But they can still have their Big Mac right now.  Or actually as of 1 feb in Ontario since we ALL can’t eat in right now.
> 
> ...


While I don’t agree with your stance on things, I too will be happy when it is over.  I hope something will remain of the country I grew up in.  Change is inevitable:  You cannot step into the same river twice, but you should be able to guarantee getting wet.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> As for what the voters decide*d in 2015,*


…added the yellow, not to alter what you quote, but to point out that doing the same thing in 2006 or 2008 or 1993 or 1984, would have led to a differently worded article.  I’d like to see a pan-election assessment of the trends of the various metrics touched in in the article.  I think it’s not as simple as the way it’s portrayed as being the 2015 election results being the be all to end all.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> But I'm a sample size of 1 and I refused to go towards Parliament.



What a shame.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is being white, painting yourself black and making monkey noises and acting like a monkey not racist?



Did he?  I'm only asking because I actually haven't seen that. Mostly pictures with no context, except for the Aladdin and Harry Belafonte ones.


----------



## winds_13 (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I don’t agree with punitive measures like a health tax or denial of medical service.  None of that is in place, just cries from a smaller segment.  Quebec has mentioned it but it doesn’t seem to have taken hold elsewhere.  So for now it’s talk.
> 
> Unvaccinated people are in fact free to travel the country.  HOW they do it though is limited by their choice.  Unvaccinated people can work for the federal government.  They need to meet the conditions of employment.
> Unvaccnated people can eat in a restaurant or bar provided they meet the conditions.
> ...


Remius, well I am glad that you are not in favour of some forms of punitive measures at least.

However, some of your arguments don't seem to make any sense. You said that unvaccinated people are free dine in restaurants, as long as they follow the rules... the law says that you must be vaccinated. So, unvaccinated people are free to do things as long as they are not unvaccinated? You compared this to a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy, those policies are business specific, they are not rules being dictated by the federal government, there is a difference. 

While there was some argument for vaccine passports several months ago, given that the data available at the time demonstrated lower risk of infection and spread of the virus amongst fully vaccinated individuals, this is no longer the case. The vaccines protection against catching and spreading the virus was waning to arguably negligible levels before Omicron started to take hold (I've posted links to studies here before) but now there is no statistical reduction in case load amongst the vaccinated. In Ontario, case rates have actually been reported as highest amongst the fully vaccinated for over a month. This makes the argument about being vaccinated to prevent spread pretty much moot. The data simply does not support the theory that vaccination reduces total caseload anymore.






						Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
					






					covid-19.ontario.ca
				




The vaccines do prevent hospitalizations and ICU admissions but it is only a small portion of the population that is susceptible to having a severe reaction to the virus in the first place. It is for this reason that Greece's policy on mandatory vaccination is targetted specifically at those over 60 years of age. Workplace mandates primarily target those who are under 60. If the goal of the vaccine passport system (na dtravel restrictions) is to prevent hospitalizations, opposed to reduce viral spread, then why is it that we are not preventig the elderly from travel or dining in restaurants... even if they are vaccinated, they are at significantly higher risk of requiring hospitalization and/or from dying of the virus. Why let the old clug up the medical system, resulting in cancelled surgeries for younger citizens with more potential years of life left? Is the goal better health outcomes for society as a whole, measured in reduced hospital admissions, or is it to punish those that don't fall in line?

I'm not actually advocating for such measures to be placed on citizens based on their age, though I am not the one defending punitive measures designed to "convince" people to make a certain medical decision and stating that they have free choice... the free choice to choose what others want or face the consequences they impose.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Did he?  I'm only asking because I actually haven't seen that. Mostly pictures with no context, except for the Aladdin and Harry Belafonte ones.


Blackface aping in addition to Aladdin and Belafonte in the one…not that anyone else in the world was noticing Trudeau’s antics…oh, wait…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Jan 2022)

"Just a small protest, nothing to see here"

🤣


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Blackface aping in addition to Aladdin and Belafonte in the one…not that anyone else in the world was noticing Trudeau’s antics…oh, wait…



Again, pictures/video without context.  High school?  Have any of us here done something when we were young that we later regretted?? You bet we have.

As stated in that video clip, those pictures were out there for everyone to see before the election.  Funny how no one noticed cared until the election.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Remius, well I am glad that you are not in favour of some forms of punitive measures at least.
> 
> However, some of your arguments don't seem to make any sense. You said that unvaccinated people are free dine in restaurants, as long as they follow the rules... the law says that you must be vaccinated. So, unvaccinated people are free to do things as long as they are not unvaccinated? You compared this to a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy, those policies are business specific, they are not rules being dictated by the federal government, there is a difference.
> 
> ...


Requiring proof of age is required by law.  And no shirt no shoes is still a condition be it gvt mandated or not. Smokers also can’t smoke in restaurants.  Conditions of service.

Non gvt employers can choose to have vaccines as mandatory or not.  My son’s employer is not enforcing its employees be vaccinated.  Mine does but mine is the government.

As I said, conditions of employment or certain service based on health and safety parameters are not violations of rights.  Sitting in a. Restaurant is also not a right.  You can be asked to leave at any time. 

Yes all unvaccinated people have the ability to do all those things as long as they meet the the conditions.  Right now that means get jabbed.  If not, cool, but no soup for you.  Big Macs are still available vis the drive through, Amazon will still deliver to you. 

Lots of people would love to just drive a car on the road.  But you can’t unless you meet the conditions. No one is forcing anyone to meet those conditions but you have to accept that you won’t be able to do what you want until you do. 

As I said, the vaccine is available to everyone. No one is being denied or discriminated against for that.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Did he?  I'm only asking because I actually haven't seen that. Mostly pictures with no context, except for the Aladdin and Harry Belafonte ones.


There's a video out there too for your viewing pleasure.



> In the video, Justin Trudeau is seen for only a few fleeting seconds.  There’s no sound.  But it is unmistakable what the future Prime Minister of Canada and his pals are doing.
> 
> Trudeau’s acting like an ape.  Sticking out his tongue, waving around his arms, shuffling around like a simian would, in a zoo or a jungle or something.



I've read accounts elsewhere about making monkey sounds, and I believe shoving bananas down his pants. 

🍌


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Again, pictures/video without context.  High school?  Have any of us here done something when we were young that we later regretted?? You bet we have.


The same people who complain that the world is too woke are the first to use racism when suits them.  But then say they aren’t woke.  

TDS.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> There's a video out there too for your viewing pleasure.



Yes, G2G posted it.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Again, pictures/video without context.  High school?  Have any of us here done something when we were young that we later regretted?? You bet we have.
> 
> As stated in that video clip, those pictures were out there for everyone to see before the election.  Funny how no one noticed cared until the election.


Well, for the political Preferatti, things of course are forgiven…but lesser mortals are still held to the historical revisionism judgement.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Live feed from right now.  Smaller crowd at the prayer thing they held.  I imagine given the amount of broken bottles and beer cans some may be sleeping in lol


----------



## winds_13 (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Requiring proof of age is required by law.  And no shirt no shoes is still a condition be it gvt mandated or not. Smokers also can’t smoke in restaurants.  Conditions of service.
> 
> Non gvt employers can choose to have vaccines as mandatory or not.  My son’s employer is not enforcing its employees be vaccinated.  Mine does but mine is the government.
> 
> ...


As I questioned previously, what actual justification do you believe there is for the continuation of these restrictions on citizens based on their vaccination status? What societal benefit is supposed to be achieved? Is it reduced spread of the virus or reduced overall hospitalizations?

As I already stated, if the goal is reduced hospitalizations, then arguably the restrictions should also be applied to those that are most vulnerable to severe complications (the elderly, in particular). Would that more effectively reduce hospitalizations and save lives? You brought up the examples of laws surrounding driving and buying booze, both of these are age-based discrimination... a twelve year old cannot simply decide to buy booze.

If the goal is reduced case counts and spread, the current data does not seem to support that argument.

Or are you arguing that the government shouldn't have to justify the reasons for restricting the individual rights and civil liberties of its citizens? Should it be able to emplace such measures if the prime purpose is to satisfy the demands of their voter support, by punishing those that disagree with the governments recommendations?


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well, for the political Preferatti, things of course are forgiven…but lesser mortals are still held to the historical revisionism judgement.



I don't condone what he's done, but I also don't think there's need to bring it up _*every*_ time someone wants to take a jab at Trudeau.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Live feed from right now.  Smaller crowd at the prayer thing they held.  I imagine given the amount of broken bottles and beer cans some may be sleeping in lol
> 
> View attachment 68364


I quite enjoy buddy with the load of logs there .... Wonder if he is just trying to get to the mill in Gatineau


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

For readers interested in diversity,

Oct. 31, 2021


> Besides meeting the gender parity benchmark Trudeau set, it is also racially diverse (21 per cent), includes a member of the Indigenous community, and three members from the LGBTQ2S+ community.











						Opinion | Why do we need a diverse government? Because it’s 2021
					

The newly appointed federal cabinet for the 44th Parliament was announced earlier this week, and it’s one of the most representative cabinets we have seen thus far. Though there is always room for improvement, this is definitely the way forward.




					www.thestar.com
				






dimsum said:


> I can also confirm that I have not seen one single non-Caucasian truck/car/pick-up driver.  Lots of folks in "camouflage" though.



Interesting.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (30 Jan 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I quite enjoy buddy with the load of logs there .... Wonder if he is just trying to get to the mill in Gatineau



So, that's why there's no TP on store shelves with interruptions to the supply chain like this!


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The same people who complain that the world is too woke are the first to use racism when suits them.  But then say they aren’t woke.
> 
> TDS.


Does one need to be "woke" to recognize racism or call it out?


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> I live right in the thick of it.  Horns have been going pretty much non-stop outside.
> 
> I can confirm that the trucks (of which it's a small minority) are not from the major carriers.  Some have also covered up company names, but that's an even smaller subset.  They seem to be independents.
> 
> I can also confirm that I have not seen one single non-Caucasian truck/car/pick-up driver.  Lots of folks in "camouflage" though.  But I'm a sample size of 1 and I refused to go towards Parliament.


I'm really not surprised.  I doubt many large fleet operators would be willing to tie up their equipment, let alone be seen connected to it.  I suspect most of the trucks are owner-operators, even if the logo bears a corporate name (either theirs or who they have a long-term contract with).

In Ontario (at least southern Ontario) a large portion of the trucking landscape has changed to leased tractor fleets operated by hired 'driver-pool' operators, both either working under long-term contracts or one-off jobs, so you would have to have two entities agree to absorb to this non-revenue use.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> So, that's why there's no TP on store shelves with interruptions to the supply chain like this!


That's a whole lot of Majesta not being made!


----------



## dapaterson (30 Jan 2022)

So, besides the Nazis, the drunks dancing and pissing on the national war memorial and the grave of the unknown soldier, the ones defacing a statue of Terry Fox, the ones stealing food from a homeless shelter, the ones throwing full beer cans at reporters, the ones setting off fireworks, and the ones sounding horns and whistles all night, the rest are ok?


----------



## dapaterson (30 Jan 2022)

Whoops.  Forgot about the ones who used the war memorial as a parking lot.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> So, besides the Nazis, the drunks dancing and pissing on the national war memorial and the grave of the unknown soldier, the ones defacing a statue of Terry Fox, the ones stealing food from a homeless shelter, the ones throwing full beer cans at reporters, the ones setting off fireworks, and the ones sounding horns and whistles all night, the rest are ok?


Who has said it’s okay? Anyone?  

A single person, even?

But sure, seems reasonable to paint everyone with the same brush.

Let’s see…all politicians are unethical, corrupt, narcissists interested only in self, not the citizens?  See how stupid that sounds to say?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2022)

Trudeau was a 29 year old drama teacher's assistant when he appeared in blackface. 29 is well beyond high school age and the age that you know this stuff is just wrong. And this case was in 2001. In 2001 the world knew this was wrong. I'm more concerned that no one in that school called him on his racism, even after he was 'resigned'


----------



## Blackadder1916 (30 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> So, besides the Nazis, the drunks dancing and pissing on the national war memorial and the grave of the unknown soldier, the ones defacing a statue of Terry Fox, the ones stealing food from a homeless shelter, the ones throwing full beer cans at reporters, the ones setting off fireworks, and the ones sounding horns and whistles all night, the rest are ok?



Well, at least the OPS doesn't seem to think so.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487823600409366530


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Does one need to be "woke" to recognize racism or call it out?


No.  Just that the word gets bandied out a lot.  Especially one side over another.  Apparently calling out nazi flags and confederate flags at a rally on parliament might also be woke to some.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Whoops.  Forgot about the ones who used the war memorial as a parking lot.


Those would be the ones that the cops said were cordial and co-operative when the parking faux pas was pointed  out to them and they vacated with apologies.


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm really not surprised.  I doubt many large fleet operators would be willing to tie up their equipment, let alone be seen connected to it.  I suspect most of the trucks are owner-operators, even if the logo bears a corporate name (either theirs or who they have a long-term contract with).
> 
> In Ontario (at least southern Ontario) a large portion of the trucking landscape has changed to leased tractor fleets operated by hired 'driver-pool' operators, both either working under long-term contracts or one-off jobs, so you would have to have two entities agree to absorb to this non-revenue use.


I thought later, that if you are a fleet operator with lawyers and bean-counters, the risk of having an insurance claim challenged if your vehicle was caught up in some kind of civil disobedience might also be a caution.

*****
I heard on the news that OPS has commenced criminal investigations regarding the "desecration" of the Terry Fox statue and War Memorial.  From what I have seen I think those are pretty big stretches, but I suppose if they get a compliant they can't dismiss them out-of-hand.  How intensive an investigation would remain to be seen.

Edit:  I didn't see the post above.  Intimidation and damage investigations might have more legs.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Those would be the ones that the cops said were cordial and co-operative when the parking faux pas was pointed  out to them and they vacated with apologies.


No the ones that were towed.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I thought later, that if you are a fleet operator with lawyers and bean-counters, the risk of having an insurance claim challenged if your vehicle was caught up in some kind of civil disobedience might also be a caution.
> 
> *****
> I heard on the news that OPS has commenced criminal investigations regarding the "desecration" of the Terry Fox statue and War Memorial.  From what I have seen I think those are pretty big stretches, but I suppose if they get a compliant they can't dismiss them out-of-hand.  How intensive an investigation would remain to be seen.
> ...


Yeah, apparently threats were made but I don’t know.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Jan 2022)

> So, besides the Nazis, the drunks dancing and pissing on the national war memorial and the grave of the unknown soldier, the ones defacing a statue of Terry Fox, the ones stealing food from a homeless shelter, the ones throwing full beer cans at reporters, the ones setting off fireworks, and the ones sounding horns and whistles all night, the rest are ok?



Until evidence surfaces of them doing something, yes.  Did you do a head count to determine the fraction of not-ok people relative to the total number of people?

Customary practice in Canada is to give protestors a lot of latitude.  No reason to stop now.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Until evidence surfaces of them doing something, yes.  Did you do a head count to determine the fraction of not-ok people relative to the total number of people?
> 
> Customary practice in Canada is to give protestors a lot of latitude.  No reason to stop now.


Or, we apply this new standard of zero tolerance for bad behaviour at protests to all protests in Canada.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

How is the traffic on the 417 through Ottawa? Google maps don't show any yellow or red zones.


----------



## blacktriangle (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> How is the traffic on the 417 through Ottawa? Google maps don't show any yellow or red zones.


MTO traffic cams along the 417 don't seem to show any major issues, at least from my perspective.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Or, we apply this new standard of zero tolerance for bad behaviour at protests to all protests in Canada.



Since it seems to be a requirement now of the this or that/black or white trend, I will start by saying I do not personally condone confederate flags, Nazi flags, dancing and peeing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, etc., but in the spirit of critical though, what is ‘bad (enough)  behaviour’ and who is to determine that line?


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> How is the traffic on the 417 through Ottawa? Google maps don't show any yellow or red zones.


No major issues


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Some current pics as of right now


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> MTO traffic cams along the 417 don't seem to show any major issues, at least from my perspective.





Remius said:


> No major issues



Greatly appreciated.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I thought later, that if you are a fleet operator with lawyers and bean-counters, the risk of having an insurance claim challenged if your vehicle was caught up in some kind of civil disobedience might also be a caution.



No major trucking companies represented.

No major retailers either.

Like Walmart, Coca-Cola, Sobey's, Tim Horton's, McDonald's etc. truck fleets advertising their brand names and logos.

I suspect they will steer clear of this sh*t show.

That kind of corporate advertising they do not need.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Since it seems to be a requirement now of the this or that/black or white trend, I will start by saying I do not personally condone confederate flags, Nazi flags, dancing and peeing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, etc., but in the spirit of critical though, what is ‘bad (enough)  behaviour’ and who is to determine that line?


Well, since I am proposing:

I do not like or condone confederate or Nazi flags at protests, either. I would suggest that also waving Communist or Che Guevara flags demonstrates an equally poor grasp of history. None of the flag waving is criminal- just poor taste.

Defacing or damaging statues and monuments, regardless of origin, is also bad behaviour. And criminal behaviour.

Blocking highways, streets, intersections and rail lines is bad behaviour. Criminal behaviour, because you are depriving your fellow citizens of their mobility rights.

Damaging industrial heavy equipment, pipelines and powerlines is bad behaviour. Criminal.

Protest all you want, but don’t wreck shit.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Well, since I am proposing:
> 
> I do not like or condone confederate or Nazi flags at protests, either. I would suggest that also waving Communist or Che Guevara flags demonstrates an equally poor grasp of history. None of the flag waving is criminal- just poor taste.
> 
> ...



It's certainly getting the attention of Canadians.


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Well, since I am proposing:
> 
> I do not like or condone confederate or Nazi flags at protests, either. I would suggest that also waving Communist or Che Guevara flags demonstrates an equally poor grasp of history. None of the flag waving is criminal- just poor taste.
> 
> ...


There seems to be general tolerance for impeding public thoroughfares and private businesses, particularly during labour disputes but also aboriginal blockades, etc.  The more temporary it is seems to drive public opinion.  I don't know where the courts definitively fall on this but law enforcement's position is typically to keep the peace and not to seen to take sides unless the court intervenes (and even then sometimes . . .)


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> There seems to be general tolerance for impeding public thoroughfares and private businesses, particularly during labour disputes but also aboriginal blockades, etc.  The more temporary it is seems to drive public opinion.  I don't know where the courts definitively fall on this but law enforcement's position is typically to keep the peace and not to seen to take sides unless the court intervenes (and even then sometimes . . .)


Yeah,  no kidding. The constant blocking of roads and highways is beyond tiresome.

I get why the police are reluctant to clear blockades. They get thrown under the bus pretty much constantly by politicians.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

I remember Occupy Ottawa,  people were tolerant at first but as it wore on patience and public opinion turned on them.


----------



## Kilted (30 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yeah,  no kidding. The constant blocking of roads and highways is beyond tiresome.
> 
> I get why the police are reluctant to clear blockades. They get thrown under the bus pretty much constantly by politicians.


It's probably going to depend on how many people are still there tomorrow.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

More detail on the shepherd’s of good hope incident.  I wasn’t aware someone had been assaulted.  The silver lining in all this is their website was overloaded with donations from across the country.  You think that a protest go fund me that raised  8 million dollars could have been spent on feeding their own people,  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487854425368633344


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Did anyone see the presser?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 Jan 2022)

A trucker guide for the uneducated


----------



## dimsum (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Did anyone see the presser?


Which presser?


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Which presser?


The organizers  announced they would hold a press conference at 13hrs.  I haven’t seen anything but it seems they didn’t invite the media lol.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (30 Jan 2022)

So those protesting the interference of mandates with truckers doing their jobs interfere with truckers doing their job.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/convoy-protest-border-lethbridge-alberta-1.6332936
		



> Truckers, motorists en route to U.S. stalled by massive blockade in southern Alberta​Large demonstration continues to block off access to border crossing on Sunday
> 
> Truckers and motorists travelling to and from the United States from southern Alberta are caught up in gridlock as an extremely large blockade of vehicles tied to an ongoing nationwide protest continues to jam border traffic.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> ... I get why the police are reluctant to clear blockades. They get thrown under the bus pretty much constantly by politicians.


... not to mention the potential of other sympathy actions happening elsewhere ....


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> So those protesting the interference of mandates with truckers doing their jobs interfere with truckers doing their job.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/convoy-protest-border-lethbridge-alberta-1.6332936


I think the UCP even passed a law against that sort of thing. Maybe they should send the RCMP to enforce it.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> So those protesting the interference of mandates with truckers doing their jobs interfere with truckers doing their job.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/convoy-protest-border-lethbridge-alberta-1.6332936


Most businesses downtown have shut down to avoid issues.  Government won’t be shutting down but the protest is hurting local business.  Sympathy will wear even thinner at some point.  I’m not sure the goal was to hurt local business but that is what they are doing.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> So those protesting the interference of mandates with truckers doing their jobs interfere with truckers doing their job.





> It's a frustrating development for professional long-haul trucker David May, who's been driving for 15 years and is fully vaccinated.





> May picked up a load of meat in Brooks, Alta., to deliver to Portland, Ore., before running up against the blockade on Saturday. He's been stuck in Milk River, Alta., since then.





> "The protest makes no sense at all," he said. "Came back here and parked with a lot of other truckers who are all vaccinated and ready to head south and do our jobs. It's really frustrating."



Those are the patriots. Keep on truckin!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487147217303474176


----------



## armrdsoul77 (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The organizers  announced they would hold a press conference at 13hrs.  I haven’t seen anything but it seems they didn’t invite the media lol.


I'm sure they are having difficulty finding someone literate among their ranks.

They had someone participating in the protest on cbc's cross country checkup this morning and he didn't sound like he could reason his way out of a paper bag.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I think the UCP even passed a law against that sort of thing. Maybe they should send the RCMP to enforce it.



I was wondering why we don't hear about police arresting people in Ottawa for drinking and pissing in public, and assaulting people with beer cans.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (30 Jan 2022)

It is illegal to block highways (and prevent citizens from doing anything they are allowed to legally do or allowed not to do).

"Intimidation

*423* (1) Every one is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years or is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction who, wrongfully and without lawful authority, for the purpose of compelling another person to abstain from doing anything that he or she has a lawful right to do, or to do anything that he or she has a lawful right to abstain from doing,
(a) uses violence or threats of violence to that person or their intimate partner or children, or injures the person’s property;
(b) intimidates or attempts to intimidate that person or a relative of that person by threats that, in Canada or elsewhere, violence or other injury will be done to or punishment inflicted on him or her or a relative of his or hers, or that the property of any of them will be damaged;
(c) persistently follows that person;
(d) hides any tools, clothes or other property owned or used by that person, or deprives him or her of them or hinders him or her in the use of them;
(e) with one or more other persons, follows that person, in a disorderly manner, on a highway;
(f) besets or watches the place where that person resides, works, carries on business or happens to be; or
(g) blocks or obstructs a highway.

Marginal note:Exception
(2) A person who attends at or near or approaches a dwelling-house or place, for the purpose only of obtaining or communicating information, does not watch or beset within the meaning of this section."


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Jan 2022)

armrdsoul77 said:


> I'm sure they are having difficulty finding someone literate among their ranks.
> 
> They had someone participating in the protest on cbc's cross country checkup this morning and he didn't sound like he could reason his way out of a paper bag.


Yes, but be honest,.....I'll bet they passed over the boring literate folk who could actually discuss the issues, and went running to the moron with open microphones.


----------



## armrdsoul77 (30 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Yes, but be honest,.....I'll bet they passed over the boring literate folk who could actually discuss the issues, and went running to the moron with open microphones.


Moron wranglers are known to use open 🎤


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2022)

We knew there would be provocateurs, anarchists and other ne'er do wells attending. I would even posit there were people there staging red flag events to bring scorn on the protest. The police had lots of people being videoed by teams of investigators and infiltrating the crowd. Hopefully, they got lots of good evidence. I am not ready to accuse the main protest people with those listed above. What I do support is a good, thorough investigation, to affix proper blame and charges and to find out who the vandals and miscreants are associated with.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Jan 2022)

> It is illegal to block highways (and prevent citizens from doing anything they are allowed to legally do or allowed not to do).



And the customary response to a protest is chock full of discretion, rather than people being hauled off promptly.

It's pathetic to litigate one kind of protest because it offends personal sensibilities.  But I suppose that's where some people are at.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> We knew there would be provocateurs, anarchists and other ne'er do wells attending. I would even posit there were people there staging red flag events to bring scorn on the protest. The police had lots of people being videoed by teams of investigators and infiltrating the crowd. Hopefully, they got lots of good evidence. I am not ready to accuse the main protest people with those listed above. What I do support is a good, thorough investigation, to affix proper blame and charges and to find out who the vandals and miscreants are associated with.


I've been listening to radio interviews and talking to some people in the area. It sounds like there's a lot of people getting into other peoples faces, shouting at anyone wearing a mask, and being all around trash balls. It's pretty infuriating.

Hard to say if the majority of people behaving like that are from BC or not. I'd be willing to bet a lot of locals from Ottawa and the surrounding area are coming out of the woodwork to cause shit. 

The great news is the amount of video footage that everyone will take. Lets see how thoroughly people breaking the law are investigated and prosecuted.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Messaging is still confusing.  Press conference


Jarnhamar said:


> I've been listening to radio interviews and talking to some people in the area. It sounds like there's a lot of people getting into other peoples faces, shouting at anyone wearing a mask, and being all around trash balls. It's pretty infuriating.
> 
> Hard to say if the majority of people behaving like that are from BC or not. I'd be willing to bet a lot of locals from Ottawa and the surrounding area are coming out of the woodwork to cause shit.
> 
> The great news is the amount of video footage that everyone will take. Lets see how thoroughly people breaking the law are investigated and prosecuted.


lots of anti lock down eff Trudeau up the valley in pembroke renfrew area so yes I’m sure they came to support and cause crap.


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I was wondering why we don't hear about police arresting people in Ottawa for drinking and pissing in public, and assaulting people with beer cans.


A few possible reasons:

Perhaps they are, we're just not hearing about it.  Public drinking isn't typically press release worthy.
Public drinking is a 'found committing' provincial offence.
On its own,  public urination is not an offence.  It might be a bylaw in Ottawa.  Even if so, also 'found committing'.
Whether throwing a beer can 'at' somebody constitutes an offence would depend on the circumstances.  If someone was struck, definitely an offence, provided you can identify the offender and have willing witnesses/evidence.
I'm not sure how many police are roaming free.  I would think most, except those specialty teams who are likely staged) are assigned to traffic or security points

In events such as these, the old saying of discretion being the better for of valour comes to mind.  The goal is public safety vs. law enforcement.  Every arrest or interaction becomes a potential flashpoint and ties up members.   It's hardly worth causing a riot over a beer, and never start a fight you can't finish.

*****
Yes, blocking traffic is, on its face, a criminal offence, but I can imagine any decent defence counsel would whip out Section 2 of the Charter (peacefully assembly) to argue the "wrongfully and without lawful authority" clause of the Section.  I don't know if this Section has been Charter-tested.  Perhaps a clear stance would be nice, but you might not like the answer you get.

If the police wanted to start clearing the streets, they'd better have an awful lot arrest teams lined up, plus Public Order to deal with the fallout (plus a fleet of larger wreckers).


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Convoy organizers plan to stay in Ottawa after weekend protests spark anger
					

Organizers of the Freedom Convoy protests are vowing to stay in Ottawa, despite police calls for a "safe exit" following a weekend of demonstrations




					nationalpost.com
				




Patrick King is awesome lol.  I wonder why they let this guy talk. 

Glad to see the police are helping to facilitate the safe exit from the city for the legitimate law abiding protesters who made their point.  From what a hear some don’t want to be associated with the crazies and are hightailing it out from here.   We’ll see what the crowds look like tomorrow.


----------



## RangerRay (30 Jan 2022)

If I didn’t think it was a crazy conspiracy theory, I would almost think this thing was organized by the Liberal Party. The only person I see benefiting from this gong show is Justin Trudeau. But as Warren Kinsella said today, JT and the Liberals couldn’t organize a decent conspiracy if their lives depended on it. 

Regardless of whether the kooks shown are a representative number or not, the organizers were pretty terrible at distancing themselves from them. So either they are either incompetent, sympathetic, or don’t care because they are grifting on the gullible. 

As for the Tories attaching themselves like barnacles to this dumpster fire…are you trying to lose my vote and others that want a sane alternative to the Liberals?


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The only person I see benefiting from this gong show is Justin Trudeau.



Have to wait until the next election to find out. 



> Ironically, this _will_ get more Canadians to vote next time.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> If I didn’t think it was a crazy conspiracy theory, I would almost think this thing was organized by the Liberal Party. The only person I see benefiting from this gong show is Justin Trudeau. But as Warren Kinsella said today, JT and the Liberals couldn’t organize a decent conspiracy if their lives depended on it.
> 
> Regardless of whether the kooks shown are a representative number or not, the organizers were pretty terrible at distancing themselves from them. So either they are either incompetent, sympathetic, or don’t care because they are grifting on the gullible.
> 
> As for the Tories attaching themselves like barnacles to this dumpster fire…are you trying to lose my vote and others that want a sane alternative to the Liberals?


This .

When O’toole kept his distance, I was actually happy to see him do that.  But then Pierre Polievre started to become the conservative voice for this thing and he’s jockeying for the leadership run he thinks will happen. So O’toole flip flops and does the same.  

This won’t wear well on the CPC.   It certainly makes me reconsider my vote.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> This .
> 
> When O’toole kept his distance, I was actually happy to see him do that.  But then Pierre Polievre started to become the conservative voice for this thing and he’s jockeying for the leadership run he thinks will happen. So O’toole flip flops and does the same.
> 
> This won’t wear well on the CPC.   It certainly makes me reconsider my vote.


Leave it alone ffs, it's getting tiresome. Conservative bad, liberals good, got it. Oh boy, how we get it. The conservatives could cure cancer tomorrow and you'd be up their asses for putting oncologists out of work.


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Leave it alone ffs, it's getting tiresome. Conservative bad, liberals good, got it. Oh boy, how we get it. The conservatives could cure cancer tomorrow and you'd be up their asses for putting oncologists out of work.


Sorry it upsets you.  I voted for them last time.  I just wish they wouldn’t self destruct.  Feel free to ignore.


----------



## dimsum (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Patrick King is awesome lol. I wonder why they let this guy talk.


That guy seems like a walking foot-in-mouth disorder.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Sorry it upsets you.  I voted for them last time.  I just wish they wouldn’t self destruct.  Feel free to ignore.


I’m not upset. Look, i get it, they’ve stepped on their wieners more than a few times, and I’m not too pleased with their performance the last few years.  But Jesus man, the wailing and gnashing of teeth every time a somewhat right of Che Guevara Canadian dares to express a though is getting boring.


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2022)

Saw this on another forum:


----------



## dapaterson (30 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Saw this on another forum:
> 
> 
> View attachment 68377


Media have tried to verify this and have been unable to find any evidence it's true.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487843239709261828


----------



## Remius (30 Jan 2022)

i saw something this morning about this,  but yeah, nothing credible to back up the claim or anything to confirm it.  I know the shepards of good hope complained that the trucks blocking their emergency lane could have costed lives but   Luckily hadn’t.

I would chalk this up to possible scenario but not likely true.  It would have been picked up by now if it was.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I would chalk this up to possible scenario but not likely true.  It would have been picked up by now if it was.



May, or may not, be true.

Where patient confidentially is involved, they make no public comment, unless legally compelled to.


----------



## Haggis (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> i saw something this morning about this,  but yeah, nothing credible to back up the claim or anything to confirm it.  I know the shepards of good hope complained that the trucks blocking their emergency lane could have costed lives but   Luckily hadn’t.
> 
> I would chalk this up to possible scenario but not likely true.  It would have been picked up by now if it was.


The Shepherds of Good Hope were flooded with donations following reports of staff harassment by protesters.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> The Shepherds of Good Hope were flooded with donations following reports of staff harassment by protesters.


They were.  Silver lining. I also heard that the Terry Fox foundation was seing increased activity after the statue was disrespected.


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Saw this on another forum:
> 
> 
> View attachment 68377


The carpool lanes only run up to the Carling Ave turn off on the Eastbound 417, well away from the blocked traffic downtown. I'm not sure where they end on the Westbound side, but Montreal Rd was pretty free flowing up to Vanier Parkway. That means access to two of the major hospitals in the city was fairly open, I'm not sure how backed up River Rd was, since OPS had traffic from the 417 diverted to Coventry.

If this really was from Ottawa, why not name streets where traffic was blocked? Hospitals the patients were being transferred to? etc..

If it was a BLM, Occupy, or other protest, would you post and share without verifying the details first?


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> The carpool lanes only run up to the Carling Ave turn off on the Eastbound 417, well away from the blocked traffic downtown. I'm not sure where they end on the Westbound side, but Montreal Rd was pretty free flowing up to Vanier Parkway. That means access to two of the major hospitals in the city was fairly open, I'm not sure how backed up River Rd was, since OPS had traffic from the 417 diverted to Coventry.
> 
> If this really was from Ottawa, why not name streets where traffic was blocked? Hospitals the patients were being transferred to? etc..
> 
> If it was a BLM, Occupy, or other protest, would you post and share without verifying the details first?


I’m only spit balling but given lenaitch’s background I will assume that it came from a first responder forum. 

I did a quick search on Natalie Harris.  She’s a Barrie city councillor.  And former paramedic with a background in blogging and book writing on things like PTSD. 









						About Natalie
					

Mom of two children, Caroline and Adam. Grandma to Beckham. Barrie resident since 1996. Retired Advanced Care Paramedic with over 11 years of experience serving Barrie and the County of Simcoe. Pre…




					thevotenatalie.wordpress.com
				




I will be honest and say I have never heard of her. 

That being said I will stand by my assertion that while possible, I haven’t seen anything confirming this.  Despite privacy issues, something would have been picked up by now in my mind.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> ... If it was a BLM, Occupy, or other protest, would you post and share without verifying the details first?


I know I would if I spotted it, and I'd bet a loonie if not me, someone else from these parts would be happy to share it.


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

I'm living in Ottawa at the moment in the downtown core.

This protest in Ottawa was / is the most horrible and questionable Canadian "protest" I have ever witnessed first hand.

They said it was about "mandates" and "vaccine passports" but it was secretly planned by Pat King, a white supremacist who is extremely racist to muslims, amongst other minorities, on the 5 year anniversary of the Quebec Mosque shooting. The vigil for this shooting tragically had to be cancelled when the convoy rolled in due to safety concerns.

I was listening in on the truckers CB radios and Apps and they were at times yelling "Hail Pat King" and saying how awesome he was as they rolled into Ottawa to reign terror on local residents, the convoy reserved a special spot for Pat King right in front of Parliament Hill. It seemed like most on their comms were aware of what was going on and who the real organizer was.

Once the convoy rolled in the nazi flags, confederate flags, and other blatant hate symbols starting coming out without any resistance. Participants danced on the tomb of the unknown soldier, defaced our statues including that of Terry Fox, pissed and shit everywhere causing what some people are saying is spring time biohazard, and are going around openly intimidating people. They also intimidated the staff at the homeless shelter, took the food that was intended to be for the homeless, and left them with nothing. As they drive around honking until 2-3am many of them are wasted, shooting fireworks from cars, doing burnouts, and going the wrong way down one-way streets. Small stages were set and some speakers tried to say that white supremacists were just "freedom fighters" trying to help the anti-vaxxers cause. All of this has been recorded.

They said the convoy was just truckers, but in an industry that is made up of mostly immigrants, this convoy was all white guys. Lots of minorities in Ottawa are STILL staying off the streets, they are still scared. Some minorities on reddit are saying they were too scared to even walk their dogs and were staying in their apartments until it ends. I know of at least one assault so far that has been filmed.

The roaming convoys of vehicles were going around constantly honking, some of them put train horns on their trucks to be extra loud, many people's pets were really freaked out and having panic attacks, this was a really a cruel experience for not only citizens but also their animals.

I know soldiers and veterans of many colours in this city. If O'Toole truly supports this thing, he has really turned on the CAF's ethos for nothing more than a few cheap votes from those who support blatant racism. After living this, I truly think he is a stain on the CAF. As the convoy rolled here across Canada he was literally too dumb to see what was happening, or too spineless to oppose it since it's clear he will do ANYTHING for votes. It's incredible and disturbing his team let this happen. I don't think he will ever recover from this and maybe it's time he picks his third career before he does more damage. Max Bernier is here and on board as well but that's not really a surprise.

Anyone who doesn't see what this really is, needs to give their heads a shake. I suspect there will be a lot more coverage of this awful event over the next few weeks.


----------



## Drallib (31 Jan 2022)

PM has COVID






						Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he's tested positive for COVID-19
					

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he is feeling well and has no symptoms after testing positive today for COVID-19.




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I know I would if I spotted it, and I'd bet a loonie if not me, someone else from these parts would be happy to share it.


Yes, I'm sure it would give them no end of joy.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Yes, I'm sure it would give them no end of joy.


Some, for sure.


----------



## lenaitch (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> The carpool lanes only run up to the Carling Ave turn off on the Eastbound 417, well away from the blocked traffic downtown. I'm not sure where they end on the Westbound side, but Montreal Rd was pretty free flowing up to Vanier Parkway. That means access to two of the major hospitals in the city was fairly open, I'm not sure how backed up River Rd was, since OPS had traffic from the 417 diverted to Coventry.
> 
> If this really was from Ottawa, why not name streets where traffic was blocked? Hospitals the patients were being transferred to? etc..
> 
> If it was a BLM, Occupy, or other protest, would you post and share without verifying the details first?


I shared it at face value.  Maybe it's bunk, maybe it's accurate.  It was a social media post, not an incident report.  If you want to investigate and run it down, fill your boots.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm living in Ottawa at the moment in the downtown core.
> 
> This protest in Ottawa was / is the most horrible and questionable Canadian "protest" I have ever witnessed first hand.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the first hand account.  I stayed away.  My only contact with the protest were supporters on the over pass (looked more like a small family outing with kids etc) and seeing a 50 vehicle convoy arrive.  Pretty tame. 

I saw confirmation yesterday about who was running the press conference (with no actual press). 

Pat King, Tamara Lich and BJ Lichter.  All three.  Speaking for and representing this thing.  That tells me everything I need to know about what this is really about.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Drallib said:


> PM has COVID
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope it's nothing minor.


----------



## PMedMoe (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Pat King, Tamara Lich and BJ Lichter.  All three.  Speaking for and representing this thing.  That tells me everything I need to know about what this is really about.



Jesus wept.


----------



## PMedMoe (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I hope it's nothing minor.



So, you hope he dies? Or just that he's really sick?

Either way, that's a pretty disturbing thought.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Jesus wept.


No he didn't, I'm pretty sure he's apolitical.


----------



## PMedMoe (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> No he didn't, I'm pretty sure he's apolitical.



Not according to the evangelists.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> So, you hope he dies? Or just that he's really sick?
> 
> Either way, that's a pretty disturbing thought.


Were we ever married? Only one other person has ever been able to read my mind and we divorced quite some time ago.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Not according to the evangelists.


But they're all morons and idiots, right?


----------



## PMedMoe (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Were we ever married? Only one other person has ever been able to read my mind and we divorced quite some time ago.



No, see the question marks?  I'm *asking*.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Okay then, I hope he doesn't skate away with a very minor brush with the Great Plague, at least he'll have a real reason to shirk his job for a few days.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm living in Ottawa at the moment in the downtown core.
> 
> This protest in Ottawa was / is the most horrible and questionable Canadian "protest" I have ever witnessed first hand.
> 
> ...


And this needs to be investigated (not sure by whom, to be honest at the moment, but some level of rigor by whatever aganecy(ies)) to at least  formally assess who was leading and/or significantly involved in what during the development and peak of the protest activity.

I do not think it’s a simple as ‘a white-supremist duped many and had his supporters and fellow white-supremists co-opt the entire effort.’  

Do we, without exception, write off everyone involved as representing the uglier side of Canadian society?  Canada’s First Nations?  Francophones? Etc.?

While I chose to not travel to Parliament Hill myself, from doing a wide scan of various media and social networking means, I saw a lot more diversity that just the bunch of red-neck white-supremists noted by many as being the core of the protest. 

This article by the National Post has several embedded media examples of the breadth of the participation in the protest.  So do we judge the indigenous people participating (per one of the embedded videos) to also be white-supremists? Les québécois(es) aussi impliqué(e)s aux activités reliées à la protestation?  

While not attempting to ignore the darker side of the protest, nor should we fail to acknowledge the many diverse groups who were participating in good faith to note their frustrations with various elements of the Government’s wider activities/actions surrounding the pandemic.

$0.02

Regards
G2G


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Thanks for the first hand account.  I stayed away.  My only contact with the protest were supporters on the over pass (looked more like a small family outing with kids etc) and seeing a 50 vehicle convoy arrive.  Pretty tame.
> 
> I saw confirmation yesterday about who was running the press conference (with no actual press).
> 
> Pat King, Tamara Lich and BJ Lichter.  All three.  Speaking for and representing this thing.  That tells me everything I need to know about what this is really about.


Did you actually watch it? Because I did. Other than some childish name calling and silly rhetoric, they came across as pretty reasonable people who laid out exactly who and what this whole thing is about, and the absence of the Gweat and Tewible CBC.


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And this needs to be investigated (not sure by whom, to be honest at the moment, but some level of rigor by whatever aganecy(ies)) to at least  formally assess who was leading and/or significantly involved in what during the development and peak of the protest activity.
> 
> I do not think it’s a simple as ‘a white-supremist duped many and had his supporters and fellow white-supremists co-opt the entire effort.’
> 
> ...



We're talking about an event that stormed the 5 year anniversary vigil of the Quebec mosque shooting run by actual white supremacists. This was a national disgrace on all levels. When nazi and confederate flags came out, they were embraced by many and nobody who was attending the main event tried to stop them. White supremacists made speeches with no opposition. What level of patience do you suggest we have for these people?


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I shared it at face value.  Maybe it's bunk, maybe it's accurate.  It was a social media post, not an incident report.  If you want to investigate and run it down, fill your boots.


Fair enough, I have done the same in the past. That's how miss-information spreads though... 

People with good intentions share the "message", it goes far and wide, creates outrage, then eventually the truth comes out, but the damage has already been done. 

It may not always be the case, but I've seen these "anonymous" friend of a friend stories, turn out to be years old, and passed around social media enough times to never trust them.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Did you actually watch it? Because I did. Other than some childish name calling and silly rhetoric, they came across as pretty reasonable people who laid out exactly who and what this whole thing is about, and the absence of the Gweat and Tewible CBC.


Of course they did.  Those three are not nice people.  They aren’t even truckers.  If they are the face of this then yes, they are smearing the whole thing.    If you like them and think it’s ok, then hey you do you.  I don’t like extremists.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> Fair enough, I have done the same in the past. That's how miss-information spreads though...
> 
> People with good intentions share the "message", it goes far and wide, creates outrage, then eventually the truth comes out, but the damage has already been done.
> 
> It may not always be the case, but I've seen these "anonymous" friend of a friend stories, turn out to be years old, and passed around social media enough times to never trust them.


True about at least sharing the "haven't seen this anywhere else" or "now no longer up" caveats.  Unlike the "social media is on fire with x" potential drive-by.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Drallib said:


> PM has COVID
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Double vaxed and boosted, isolated, in a secure location and he caught the vid anyway. I wonder what he'll offer up as an excuse for catching it. I don't know, but I expect the normal Joe on the street will see that and probably wonder what they've been doing locked up at home, not able to work, not able to send the kids to school, not able to socialize, mandated to follow medical procedures they disagree with or suffer social ostracization as a Typhoid Mary kind of person. Two years of mealy mouthed measurements that only caused anger, angst, depression and a myriad of other mental health problems that will plague us for two generations. Suicides, break up of family units, poverty and homelessness. All for something that only has a 0.0X% chance of killing you.

But wait! There's a silver lining to all of this!

His symptoms won't be as severe

He won't have to attend to the nations business, in the House, for 14 days. No pesky questions on the convoy or their demands. No dealing with an opposition asking inconvenient questions or Canadians demanding action. Two weeks to hide and let things blow over, as is his want. Not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if some crisis reared it's ugly head on day 13 of his quarantine. Just in time to shut down discussion of the convoy and their demands. Then he can swoop in out of nowhere, change the daily narrative and go back to his saving Canadians from themselves.


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Did you actually watch it? Because I did. Other than some childish name calling and silly rhetoric, they came across as pretty reasonable people who laid out exactly who and what this whole thing is about, and the absence of the Gweat and Tewible CBC.



So let me guess, you watched the entire thing and all you saw were a bunch of "freedom fighters".

Here's a little clip from the speeches being made:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487871040231546882
If you truly watched this event, the forum knows where you stand.


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

I have lots of first hand content from this event and from the others who had to experience it, and who still are experiencing it. 

If anyone wants to continue showing support for this vile hateful racist crap, please speak up, tell us it was just some "freedom fighters" and I will gladly continue to post first hand accounts, videos, and recordings of exactly what you stood up for and what you're now defending. You will find yourself aligned only with far-right conspiracies.

This has NO PLACE IN THE CAF.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> So let me guess, you watched the entire thing and all you saw were a bunch of "freedom fighters".
> 
> Here's a little clip from the speeches being made:
> 
> ...


Oh boy, I hope you give up your job at the carnival as "Super Guess Guy", because you really suck at it. The conversation was about THE PRESSER, do try to keep up.  Call my motivation into question one more time.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I have lots of first hand content from this event and from the others who had to experience it, and who still are experiencing it.
> 
> If anyone wants to continue showing support for this vile hateful racist crap, please speak up, tell us it was just some "freedom fighters" and I will gladly continue to post first hand accounts, videos, and recordings of exactly what you stood up for and what you're now defending. You will find yourself aligned only with far-right conspiracies.
> 
> This has NO PLACE IN THE CAF.


At no point have I expressed any kind of support for this thing, to my mind it's just a big waste of diesel. My support is behind people's right to be pissed off and say something about it. GFYS


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> We're talking about an event that stormed the 5 year anniversary vigil of the Quebec mosque shooting run by actual white supremacists. This was a national disgrace on all levels. When nazi and confederate flags came out, they were embraced by many and nobody who was attending the main event tried to stop them. White supremacists made speeches with no opposition. What level of patience do you suggest we have for these people?


So you’re grouping everyone involved in the protest as being complicit in the storming of a memorial for the Saints-Foy Mosque shooting?  Even the First Nations and Québécois(es)?

That is a ridiculous stretch and frankly, pretty disrespectful, at the very least, of those indigenous and Quebecer protesters participating in the protest.    

Got it: Mills Bomb position - the protest was entirely aimed at disrespecting the six Muslims that died in Saints-Foy in 2017…


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So you’re grouping everyone involved in the protest as being complicit in the storming of a memorial for the Saints-Foy Mosque shooting?  Even the First Nations and Québécois(es)?
> 
> That is a ridiculous stretch and frankly, pretty disrespectful, at the very least, of those indigenous and Quebecer protesters participating in the protest.
> 
> Got it: Mills Bomb position - the protest was entirely aimed at disrespecting the six Muslims that died in Saints-Foy in 2017…



Let me get this straight. You think it's just a coincidence that Pat King organized the event on this day? Please, look at the evidence and be more open to seeing this for what it is. 

A lot of people were tricked into attending this event.

You're saying I'm being disrespectful, but you are trying to defend people who were at an event with nazi flags and crazy people dancing on the grave of the unknown soldier.

This "event" was a total disaster.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I have lots of first hand content from this event and from the others who had to experience it, and who still are experiencing it.
> 
> If anyone wants to continue showing support for this vile hateful racist crap, please speak up, tell us it was just some "freedom fighters" and I will gladly continue to post first hand accounts, videos, and recordings of exactly what you stood up for and what you're now defending. You will find yourself aligned only with far-right conspiracies.
> 
> This has NO PLACE IN THE CAF.



And the other extreme enters the chat... 

Les sigh...


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Let me get this straight. You think it's just a coincidence that Pat King organized the event on this day? Please, look at the evidence and be more open to seeing this for what it is.
> 
> A lot of people were tricked into attending this event.
> 
> ...


Show me where I, or anyone else here has defended specifically the white-supremists?

I’ll wait…


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

I would caution anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts.  He appears to be currently at ground zero for this thing.

By all accounts, most Ottawans going through the worst of it just want these guys to GTFO of their city.  While there are  some bad apples doing bad things there a more than just a few of them causing grief to local businesses, charities and people that just want to walk their dogs and be able to drop their kids off at school.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm living in Ottawa at the moment in the downtown core.
> 
> This protest in Ottawa was / is the most horrible and questionable Canadian "protest" I have ever witnessed first hand.
> 
> ...


Boy, you got it all in there. Loads of hearsay, rumour and innuendo. Condemnation of thousands over the actions of a few, which is easy to do when you ignore that activists and idiots can also occupy a public space at the same time. Both partisan and identity politics. You even squeezed far right wing, white supremacy with conspiracy theory and animal rights in there. You even managed to imply anyone not in agreement with your narrative is ignorant of your facts and requires violent cranial agitation to come around to your point of view.

Well done you! You go (insert preferred gender pronoun here)!


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

I'm not an extreme person, I am just reporting what I saw.

Here's a nazi flag flying with someone doing a nazi salute. This was cheered on by many people who were there.

Excuse me for being a bit on edge but this is the type of stuff I've been seeing for the last couple days, combined with lack of sleep from the honking. I am disappointed in what I witnessed, but seeing people do these things and dance on the grave of the unknown soldier can bring up some pretty strong emotions that may have made me a bit on the attack. My apologies to anyone who stands with me and opposes this event or wants to remain neutral until more evidences surfaces from other sources.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I would caution anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts.  He appears to be currently at ground zero for this thing.
> 
> By all accounts, most Ottawans going through the worst of it just want these guys to GTFO of their city.  While there are  some bad apples doing bad things there a more than just a few of them causing grief to local businesses, charities and people that just want to walk their dogs and be able to drop their kids off at school.


So if I go downtown right now, I’m going to see thousands of people whole all agree that they’re following Pat King to mock the six Muslims killed in Sainte-Foy in 2017?


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Boy, you got it all in there. Loads of hearsay, rumour and innuendo. Condemnation of thousands over the actions of a few, which is easy to do when you ignore that activists and idiots can also occupy a public space at the same time. Both partisan and identity politics. You even squeezed far right wing, white supremacy with conspiracy theory and animal rights in there. You even managed to imply anyone not in agreement with your narrative is ignorant of your facts and requires violent cranial agitation to come around to your point of view.
> 
> Well done you! You go (insert preferred gender pronoun here)!


This from the guy who does EXACTLY the same thing from his end of spectrum. 

Bravo Pot.  Way to tell kettle.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm not an extreme person, I am just reporting what I saw.
> 
> Here's a nazi flag flying with someone doing a nazi salute. This was cheered on by many people who were there.
> 
> Excuse me for being a bit on edge but this is the type of stuff I've been seeing for the last couple days.


So you paint everybody at the protest with the widest of brushes…nice.

Did those with Fleurs-de-Lys flags or just plain non-upside down Canada flags tell you they also supported the 2017 Mosque shooting?


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

I love taking the train to our beautiful capitol, and intend to again soon.

I feel for the people who live and work there these dark days.

As for the rest of Canada, as long as they are getting their groceries and beer, I wonder if they are paying much attention to the politics?


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I would caution anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts.  He appears to be currently at ground zero for this thing.
> 
> By all accounts, most Ottawans going through the worst of it just want these guys to GTFO of their city.  While there are  some bad apples doing bad things there a more than just a few of them causing grief to local businesses, charities and people that just want to walk their dogs and be able to drop their kids off at school.


My comments were directly a result of his attacking my "moral (whateverthefuck that is these days) fibre" and my ethics (whateverthefuck those are these days), based on his inability to comprehend what I wrote in what I assumed were quite easily understood terms. My bad.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So if I go downtown right now, I’m going to see thousands of people whole all agree that they’re following Pat King to mock the six Muslims killed in Sainte-Foy in 2017?


I have no clue.  I’m not really commenting on that because it’s not something I have knowledge of one way or another.  I know they cancelled the vigil that was planned and there was some high fiving about it there.  

My point is that residents and businesses living on the ground right there, while most here sitting at their keyboards cheerleading this, are getting stressed about what is happening and don’t feel very safe right now.  

So I put his comments in that light. 

But a lot of people following Pat King aren’t there for  trucker mandate issues.


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I would caution anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts.  He appears to be currently at ground zero for this thing.
> 
> By all accounts, most Ottawans going through the worst of it just want these guys to GTFO of their city.  While there are  some bad apples doing bad things there a more than just a few of them causing grief to local businesses, charities and people that just want to walk their dogs and be able to drop their kids off at school.



It is my opinion that all members of this forum restrain from showing any support for this event. I don't think it will age well. You don't need to believe my accounts of it but if you haven't admitted you attended or supported already it would be extremely unwise to do so right now. At least wait a few more days until you can analyze what actually happened. You may thank me later for this. A lot of people had no idea what they were signing up for.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> We're talking about an event that stormed the 5 year anniversary vigil of the Quebec mosque shooting run by actual white supremacists. This was a national disgrace on all levels. When nazi and confederate flags came out, they were embraced by many and nobody who was attending the main event tried to stop them. White supremacists made speeches with no opposition. What level of patience do you suggest we have for these people?


I expect Canadians to respect their right to free assembly and free expression. The same as we do with far left, anti male anglo Caucasian conspiracy theorists and people that try to link horrible crimes to a lawful protest of concerned citizens worried about their future. Any law breaking can be dealt with by the system.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

So now, the Ottawa police (already spread thin) will be responding with every paramedic call to that area.  Multiple incidents of people throwing rocks at paramedic vehicles and blocking them trying to respond to calls.  One was met with racial slurs. 

Not sure what the goal of any of that is tbh.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jan 2022)

All of can say is at least there's no burning, looting, destruction of store fronts,......

This is almost like a 1960's style protest....be seen and make lots if noise.  Probably less crime going on in this misbegotten area to the east of Byward Market right now then on normal days I'm sure.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

> Remius said:
> 
> 
> > I would caution anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts.  He appears to be currently at ground zero for this thing.
> ...


 
So then what was your ‘Caution’ to anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts?  If we were not physically in place, we can’t refute their claim that everyone is in on a Nazi-based Anti-Muslim conspiracy?



Remius said:


> I have no clue.  I’m not really commenting on that because it’s not something I have knowledge of one way or another.  I know they cancelled the vigil that was planned and there was some high fiving about it there.


Cancelled a vigil in Ottawa? Sainte-Foy?

A memorial took place on 29 Jan in Sainte-Foy, so couldn’t be that. 



Remius said:


> My point is that residents and businesses living on the ground right there, while most here sitting at their keyboards cheerleading this, are getting stressed about what is happening and don’t feel very safe right now.
> 
> So I put his comments in that light.
> 
> But a lot of people following Pat King aren’t there for  trucker mandate issues.


No one I’ve seen is disputing this at all, but that doesn’t justify painting everyone participating as Nazi anti-Muslims following Pat King’s alleged plan…


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I would caution anyone commenting on Mills Bomb’s posts.  He appears to be currently at ground zero for this thing.
> 
> By all accounts, most Ottawans going through the worst of it just want these guys to GTFO of their city.  While there are  some bad apples doing bad things there a more than just a few of them causing grief to local businesses, charities and people that just want to walk their dogs and be able to drop their kids off at school.


That is the one (hedged) truth in your statement. The rest is unsubstantiated opinion.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> All of can say is at least there's no burning, looting, destruction of store fronts,......
> 
> This is almost like a 1960's style protest....be seen and make lots if noise.  Probably less crime going on in this misbegotten area to the east of Byward Market right now then on normal days I'm sure.


I wonder if anyone in Toronto or Montreal was killed by a gang banger with a smuggled gun while this 'violent insurrection of our Capital' was taking place?


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

No.  Just to put his comments in context to the situation he is in. It wasn’t aimed specifically at anyone but the forum in general. He apologized for his tone and confirmed pretty much what I thought.  

No this one.  



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mosque-shooting-vigil-cancelled-convoy-protest-1.6332479
		


Was going to be at the Human Rights monument. But they cancelled out of caution.  Was probably the right call. 

Like I said, people living in that area are getting fed up and don’t feel safe.  Even with all the good people there who don’t seem to be doing much to stop the bad people from putting a bad name to all of this.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Multiple incidents of people throwing rocks at paramedic vehicles and blocking them trying to respond to calls.  One was met with racial slurs.



It used to be an easy job.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> That is the one (hedged) truth in your statement. The rest is unsubstantiated opinion.


Oh sorry, you live here right?  Oh you don’t.  Thanks for coming out.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> All of can say is at least there's no burning, looting, destruction of store fronts,......
> 
> This is almost like a 1960's style protest....be seen and make lots if noise.  Probably less crime going on in this misbegotten area to the east of Byward Market right now then on normal days I'm sure.


True.  It isn’t violent at all by most standards.  Actually it would seem that some things are happening with the police busy dealing with other stuff. 

Anectdotal but someone spray painted a local business in the market.  It has all the hallmarks of a professional tagger taking advantage of the chaos and not related to the protest.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Oh sorry, you live here right?  Oh you don’t.  Thanks for coming out.


And what substantial evidence do you have that your narrative is true? Census, petitions, in depth interviews with everyone? No, you have none. You have an opinion based on your personal bias's and those who you agree with. I'm simply applying your rules to my own opinion.


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> No.  Just to put his comments in context to the situation he is in. It wasn’t aimed specifically at anyone but the forum in general. He apologized for his tone and confirmed pretty much what I thought.
> 
> No this one.
> 
> ...



Thanks for beating me to finding a news story, this the event I mentioned. I'm confident everything I posted will be confirmed as the stories come out.

I have made an effort to warn members of this forum about some of the stuff that unfolded and is still unfolding. This is genuine and if you can get past my bad mood this morning I think you may thank me for warning you later. I am doing this to give the forum an insight on what will likely soon be international news and some of the thing you will be associated with if you supported this event.

Did anyone else on the forum besides Kat Stevens go and support this event?  I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of crickets and not many others will be willing to admit they were supporters very soon when more comes to light. I think you are making a big mistake admitting what you supported at this point. But let's see how this plays out and the forum can make up their own mind without my bias from having literally lived through this thing.

If you are in a CAF leadership position, please wait a few more days to analyze the evidence of what happened before you show any support for this "protest". I really think you may respect my advice in the coming days. I am going to tone it back now if you think I'm completely out to lunch that's fine with me.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> True.  It isn’t violent at all by most standards.  Actually it would seem that some things are happening with the police busy dealing with other stuff.
> 
> Anectdotal but someone spray painted a local business in the market.  It has all the hallmarks of a professional tagger taking advantage of the chaos and not related to the protest.


LOL that happens in Victoria, BC almost hourly.  According to City Hall, it's the local businesses responsibility to clean it up 🤣

This has to be the most peaceful protest ever and the outrage and attention it is getting is actually hilarious.  #Mountainoutofamolehill

Meanwhile in Los Angeles in the REAL WORLD:  






We may have to bring back the Pinkertons before you know it!  Tbh, a return to the Wild West might make people a bit more polite.  Especially, if the slights people throw around like popcorn nowadays was met with a Six Shooter.


----------



## bLUE fOX (31 Jan 2022)

This is from today in downtown Ottawa. Admittedly, the noise would drive me crazy, but otherwise it doesn't seem bad:


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> And what substantial evidence do you have that your narrative is true? Census, petitions, in depth interviews with everyone? No, you have none. You have an opinion based on your personal bias's and those who you agree with. I'm simply applying your rules to my own opinion.


So the shepherds of good hope didn’t have an issue with scumbags assaulting a security guard and demanding food?

Are businesses open or closed right now in the core?  

Are the local schools open? 

Hey the mall is closed too.  

People living there don’t feel safe and certainly are starting to lose patience.

Or the disabled that can’t get to their services and in some cases access to their source of food 

Or the the homeless people that volunteers can’t get to. You probably live in southern Ontario and don’t understand how cold it is here right now. 

I would post plenty of articles and feeds and what not but you already have your head in the sand.  

People there want them gone.  I could care less what you think you think you know.

But hey, guess what, parliament just resumed so I’m not sure how effective this whole thing is right now.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Thanks for beating me to finding a news story, this the event I mentioned. I'm confident everything I posted will be confirmed as the stories come out.
> 
> I have made an effort to warn members of this forum about some of the stuff that unfolded and is still unfolding. This is genuine and if you can get past my bad mood this morning I think you may thank me for warning you later.
> 
> ...


NOW YOU'VE GONE AND MADE THIS PERSONAL. I WILL TYPE THIS VERY SLOWLY AND ALL IN BIG LETTERS SO THAT YOU DON'T FUCK IT UP. AGAIN. I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS, IT'S FUCKING STUPID, I SUPPORT PEOPLES RIGHT TO BE ANGRY AND EXPRESS THAT ANGER PEACEFULLY. IF YOU CONTINUE TO IMPUGN ME WITH WHAT YOUR SUPER GUESSING POWERS TELL YOU IS MY MOTIVATION, I WILL TAKE IT UP WITH ADMIN. I WILL NOT SAY THIS AGAIN.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Thanks for beating me to finding a news story, this the event I mentioned. I'm confident everything I posted will be confirmed as the stories come out.
> 
> I have made an effort to warn members of this forum about some of the stuff that unfolded and is still unfolding. This is genuine and if you can get past my bad mood this morning I think you may thank me for warning you later. I am doing this to give the forum an insight on what will likely soon be international news and some of thing you will be associated with if you supported this event.
> 
> ...



Are you issuing veiled threats towards individuals who decide to express support for other individuals exercising Freedom of Expression ?


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> but you are trying to defend people who were at an event with nazi flags and crazy people dancing on the grave of the unknown soldier.
> 
> This "event" was a total disaster.



What did the Nazi wannabes say when you confronted them?


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

I am not issuing threats to anyone.

I am just explaining what I saw. I'm just one person. I genuinely hope I am wrong and these things were all just horrifying coincidences.

Kat Stevens: I have no personal issue with you. I assumed when you said "Did you actually watch it? Because I did" you were implying you were at the event. If that's not the case I will gladly edit my post and take that back. I don't know you and don't want to imply you were at something if you weren't.

On that note; mods/admin please feel free to delete anything that doesn't have to do with the protest. My apologies if I overstepped any boundaries.

I saw some pretty concerning things happen in Ottawa and my post is simply to give advance warning to forum.

If I am wrong about anything I posted, I will gladly retire from this forum. If anything I posted turns out to be "fake news" I will step down from posting here and apologize.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I am not issuing threats to anyone.
> 
> I am just explaining what I saw. I'm just one person. I genuinely hope I am wrong and these things were all just horrifying coincidences.
> 
> ...



I suggest you are too close to the fire and are emotionally invested at this time.  Step back, take a breath and relax.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jan 2022)

No one doubts you saw some stupid crap, welcome to humans gathering.  If those events were the average then this thing would be a lot worse then some honking, disruptions, etc....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Thanks for beating me to finding a news story, this the event I mentioned. I'm confident everything I posted will be confirmed as the stories come out.
> 
> I have made an effort to warn members of this forum about some of the stuff that unfolded and is still unfolding. This is genuine and if you can get past my bad mood this morning I think you may thank me for warning you later. I am doing this to give the forum an insight on what will likely soon be international news and some of the thing you will be associated with if you supported this event.
> 
> ...


You realize that some of us have been harping on this for two years now!  The problem is people like you don't seem to understand every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Society exists on a Bell Curve and some of us have been warning since March 2020 that Government Interventions would have consequences.

*Increased civil disobedience is a consequence of Government intervention.  

Inflation is a direct consequence of Government intervention.  

Supply Chain issues are a direct consequence of Government Intervention.*

The debate we should be actually having is are these Government interventions still worth the cost in the face of these other pressures 😉


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I am not issuing threats to anyone.
> 
> I am just explaining what I saw. I'm just one person. I genuinely hope I am wrong and these things were all just horrifying coincidences.
> 
> ...


At least twice I said I was referring to the PRESS CONFERENCE that was aired on twitter, I watched all 45 minutes of it. You went and, first, made an assumption based on your comprehension of what I wrote, and secondly, went and made it an attack on my character based on your faulty comprehension.  I really thought I was a better communicator in the written form, something I need to work on, I suppose.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Doug Fort said it quite nicely.









						Doug Ford issues statement condemning ‘symbols of hate’ at Ottawa protest  | Globalnews.ca
					

'I was extremely disturbed ... to see some individuals desecrate our most sacred monuments and wave swastikas and other symbols of hate and intolerance this weekend.'




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jan 2022)

> If anyone wants to continue showing support for this vile hateful racist crap, please speak up, tell us it was just some "freedom fighters" and I will gladly continue to post first hand accounts, videos, and recordings of exactly what you stood up for and what you're now defending. You will find yourself aligned only with far-right conspiracies.



Knock it off. You don't speak for everyone, and not everyone who presents evidence to the world is interested in presenting a balanced view.  It's not the first movement to be hijacked by assholes (TEA Party, BLM).  Not everyone is guilty by association.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Doug Fort said it quite nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you feeling okay?


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Are you feeling okay?


Fine thanks.  I should really be asking you after your all caps swear post.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Fine thanks.  I should really be asking you after your all caps swear post.


Sometimes you have to raise your voice for the hard of hearing


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jan 2022)

> All of can say is at least there's no burning, looting, destruction of store fronts,......



So by American standards, it is not a "mostly peaceful protest".


----------



## Mills Bomb (31 Jan 2022)

> Humphrey Bogart said:
> 
> 
> > You realize that some of us have been harping on this for two years now!  The problem is people like you don't seem to understand every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
> ...



I'm going to step back for a bit and maybe come back in a few days when I've cooled off.

I actually agree that a lot of things have led us here and we have a big problem. I am not debating that.

My final words on the "protest" is that members of this forum should very weary of supporting this thing until more details come to light, my view is definitely very biased right now. Mods / Admin please delete anything you feel may have gotten out of hand or doesn't relate to what's happening.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> So by American standards, it is not a "mostly peaceful protest".


Lol.  That’s actually a good point.  But we have seen far more damage during black block protests.  If I recall the CFRC in Ottawa had its windows smashed during a G8 or G20 summit.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm going to step back for a bit and maybe come back in a few days when I've cooled off.
> 
> I actually agree that a lot of things have led us here and we have a big problem. I am not debating that.
> 
> My final words on the "protest" is that members of this forum should very weary of supporting this thing until more details come to light, my view is definitely very biased right now. Mods / Admin please delete anything you feel may have gotten out of hand or don't relate to what's happening.


Even with your parting shot you imply there's support for the goonery here. (Apolitical)Christ on a crutch...


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Even with your parting shot you imply there's support for the goonery here. (Apolitical)Christ on a crutch...


Are you still okay?


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Are you still okay?


Fabulous thanks, how bout you? No acid reflux or anything from your Ford done good post?


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

I suspect far-sighted politicians will be distancing themselves from this Sh*t show, if they have not already.

Same as Teamsters Canada, the Canadian Trucking Association, the Private Motor Truck Council of Canada, the Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association and the B.C. Trucking Association had the fore-sight to do.

Maybe even express appreciation to the drivers who kept on truckin'.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Are you still okay?





Kat Stevens said:


> Fabulous thanks, how bout you? No acid reflux or anything from your Ford done good post?


Ok, I may have giggled,....but ...."Gentlemen".


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Fabulous thanks, how bout you? No acid reflux or anything from your Ford done good post?


Why would that be the case?


----------



## lenaitch (31 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Double vaxed and boosted, *isolated*, in a secure location and he caught the vid anyway. I wonder what he'll offer up as an excuse for catching it. I don't know, but I expect the normal Joe on the street will see that and probably wonder what they've been doing locked up at home, not able to work, not able to send the kids to school, not able to socialize, mandated to follow medical procedures they disagree with or suffer social ostracization as a Typhoid Mary kind of person. Two years of mealy mouthed measurements that only caused anger, angst, depression and a myriad of other mental health problems that will plague us for two generations. Suicides, break up of family units, poverty and homelessness. All for something that only has a 0.0X% chance of killing you.
> 
> But wait! There's a silver lining to all of this!
> 
> ...


Up until a few days ago, I very much doubt he was isolated.  The PMO and PCO have a lot of staff milling about, plus whoever else he interacted with (security detail, household staff, etc.).

I don't think anybody has claimed that the vaccines make you immune.


******

Honest question to the board.  I haven't been breathlessly following the events in Ottawa, mostly for my sanity.  During speeches, press conferences, etc., have any of the organizers, psuedo-organizers or anybody who purports to have anything to do with running this thing in Ottawa, denounced or commented at all on the reports (formal and social media) of illegal/unsavory/disruptive behavior of some the participants?  I watched the above clip but couldn't hear all of it well and don't know who they were.

I mean, it's their party.  Wouldn't it make simple sense to distance yourself from it?  If they claim to have legitimate demands, would it not make sense to come across as legitimate?  You don't even have to mean it - just sound sincere and claim some high ground.  Otherwise, the casual observer has little choice but to use the same paintbrush.


----------



## dapaterson (31 Jan 2022)

Ottawa paramedics have refuted the allegations that a patient died 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488185015750074374


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Up until a few days ago, I very much doubt he was isolated.  The PMO and PCO have a lot of staff milling about, plus whoever else he interacted with (security detail, household staff, etc.).
> 
> I don't think anybody has claimed that the vaccines make you immune.
> 
> ...



I think the leaders are missing the opportunity here to get out in front of bad press and distance themselves and their core ideals from the whacked hangers on they have polluting their protest.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think the leaders are missing the opportunity here to get out in front of bad press and distance themselves and their core ideals from the whacked hangers on they have polluting their protest.


Exactly.   I mentioned that they were losing the initiative to these people.  

Do we know who the real leaders are?  I mean the ones that represent the truckers.  I honestly have not seen anything from them.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Exactly.   I mentioned that they were losing the initiative to these people.
> 
> Do we know who the real leaders are?  I mean the ones that represent the truckers.  I honestly have not seen anything from them.



Thats the big problem with these movements eh ?  Who are the leaders... I mean its not like the follow Roberts Rules of Order lol


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (31 Jan 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm going to step back for a bit and maybe come back in a few days when I've cooled off.
> 
> I actually agree that a lot of things have led us here and we have a big problem. I am not debating that.
> 
> My final words on the "protest" is that members of this forum should very weary of supporting this thing until more details come to light, my view is definitely very biased right now. Mods / Admin please delete anything you feel may have gotten out of hand or doesn't relate to what's happening.


That's fine but instead of focusing the Nazis, Antifa, Alt Right, Eco-terrorists, etc.... (they will always exist no matter how angry you get about it)

By focusing on the idiots who exist everywhere, you're missing the actual issues and "can't see the forest for the trees".  Many people have grievances with continuing restrictions and Government interventions.  They are fed up with constantly shifting goal posts, arbitrary measures, politicized policy lacking actual evidence.

P.S.

I actually don't mind idiots out waving Nazi flags because it lets everyone know who those idiots are 😉


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

The issue, no matter what, is that a Nazi Flag will ALWAYS get attention.  It gets more attention when people around the Nazi flag keep partying it up.   I’m pretty sure we all get that here.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The issue, no matter what, is that a Nazi Flag will ALWAYS get attention.  It gets more attention when people around the Nazi flag keep partying it up.



And others with a yellow Star of David. WTF?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Exactly.   I mentioned that they were losing the initiative to these people.
> 
> Do we know who the real leaders are?  I mean the ones that represent the truckers.  I honestly have not seen anything from them.


These are mostly the independent truckers, like the independent fishermen, it's like herding cats. This is a real popular protest, not organized by the usual suspects, they catapulted on popular discontent and now struggle to know what to do next. Unlike like the professional grievers who know how to play the game. Which is why in other countries you see groups like the communists/Marxists or Islamists piggyback on general grievances to further their own agenda's. Canada as a whole is not used to a general grievance protest , so we look down on it as unorganized. However to diss it, we fail to heed the warning. Unrest is building in the country from a number of factors and Ottawa (and much of the Provincial ruling class) is disconnected from the population at large. The next version of general protest will be better organized and tougher.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

…and may also manifest itself more directly in federal and provincial elections…


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think the leaders are missing the opportunity here to get out in front of bad press and distance themselves and their core ideals from the whacked hangers on they have polluting their protest.


O'Toole did a reasonably good job separating the protest wheat from the protest chaff, albeit maybe a titch later than he could have - and others ... well, not so much.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> O'Toole did a reasonably good job separating the protest wheat from the protest chaff, albeit maybe a titch later than he could have - and others ... well, not so much.


I won’t disagree necessarily.  But I wonder what damage he has done to the brand by making himself vulnerable to attack on this.  Maybe I’m wrong.  But maybe if he had just stuck with the messaging and stayed away instead of meeting them in person?  I think that he and others were hoping for quick political wins with the base.

I expect we’ll see attack ads with him and other CPC members standing next to flags etc etc. 

I totally get why Bernier was there though.  This does’t hurt him at all.


----------



## Haggis (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I totally get why Bernier was there though.  This doesn’t hurt him at all.


Bernier's ultimate goal is to keep the Cons out of power.  He's a spoiled brat who didn't like the way the Conservative playground treated him when he ran for the leadership, so he took his ball and went home.   He knows he can't win a general election, but he can deny O'Toole a win.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Bernier's ultimate goal is to keep the Cons out of power.  He's a spoiled brat who didn't like the way the Conservative playground treated him when he ran for the leadership, so he took his ball and went home.   He knows he can't win a general election, but he can deny O'Toole a win.


His popular vote share is likely to increase.  I doubt his vote share efficiency will.  But I think you are on point with his ability to deny an O’toole win.   Your post made me think that maybe O’toole made the decision to meet the protesters with that in mind and risk manage the fall out?   Food for thought.


----------



## Haggis (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> His popular vote share is likely to increase.  I doubt his vote share efficiency will.  But I think you are on point with his ability to deny an O’toole win.


Every time Bernier's vote share increases, he comes closer to handing the Liberals their next majority.  As a "true" Conservative, I'm sure he sees that, and doesn't care.  His long game is to deny victory to those who blocked his leadership attempt until he can re-enter the fold to "save" the Canadian right.


Remius said:


> Your post made me think that maybe O’toole made the decision to meet the protesters with that in mind and risk manage the fall out?   Food for thought.


As long as O'Toole avoids the fringe and radical elements and takes a tone of moderation he should be okay.  However, with the Liberals not likely to call another election for two years, this protest will be a distant memory.  None of that will matter.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jan 2022)

Why shouldn't he meet with the protesters?   There are legitimate grievances here, even though I disagree  with them, the fact that many folk were willing to do all of this NEED to be listened too.

I mean awesome would be he punched some clown in the mouth as he runs by with a Nazi flag while doing the interview,......but wet dreams for another time.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (31 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> O'Toole did a reasonably good job separating the protest wheat from the protest chaff, albeit maybe a titch later than he could have - and others ... well, not so much.



I suppose one could argue the efficacy of Mr. O'Toole's winnowing, however that was three days ago.  Taking the lazy man's modern internet savvy man's approach to argument . . .


 

I haven't seen much from O'Toole today.  He was just sitting down when I tuned into QP in the House so I missed if he made any reference to the ongoing events in Ottawa.  As much as I despise the use of Twitter as a means of social and political discourse, I went to Mr. O'Toole's page to see if he had anything up to date to say.  Nothing there that impresses me with his leadership in regard to this protest.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (31 Jan 2022)

Here is some testimony on the protests from one of our own, former CANSOF Operator, Ryan Murphy.

He is there to use the occasion to advocate for Veterans Issues:









						Ryan Murphy, CD, on LinkedIn: I'm here in Ottawa to see this protest with my own eyes. So far what
					

I'm here in Ottawa to see this protest with my own eyes. So far what I have seen is many people from all walks of life coming together for different reasons...




					www.linkedin.com
				




"Super peaceful and everyone just wants the Prime Minister to address them as his equal"

Hmmmm 🤔 but I thought everyone there was a "Racist Nazi"


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Why shouldn't he meet with the protesters?   There are legitimate grievances here, even though I disagree  with them, the fact that many folk were willing to do all of this NEED to be listened too.
> 
> I mean awesome would be he punched some clown in the mouth as he runs by with a Nazi flag while doing the interview,......but wet dreams for another time.


It’s a calculated risk.  One CPC MP met with Pat King out west.  Damage control after that.  He claims he didn’t know who he was.  I actually believe him because until this whole thing started I had no idea who he was.  But he’s still on video shaking hands and giving his support. 

Another was standing in front of an upside down flag with a swastika painted in it saying how great everyone is. 

Optics.  

His message about cooling things down is good.  I’m just not sure the optics will be in his favour.  I legit hope I am wrong though.


----------



## Altair (31 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Bernier's ultimate goal is to keep the Cons out of power.  He's a spoiled brat who didn't like the way the Conservative playground treated him when he ran for the leadership, so he took his ball and went home.   He knows he can't win a general election, but he can deny O'Toole a win.


Same as the ultimate goal of the NDP is to keep the LPC out if power, but you don't hear them complaining about it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Latest convoy fundraiser update as of this post


----------



## Blackadder1916 (31 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Latest convoy fundraiser update as of this post
> View attachment 68397



$9.2 million.  If only it was possible for the City of Ottawa to sue for reimbursement of the estimated $800K per day of additional policing costs.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> $9.2 million.  If only it was possible for the City of Ottawa to sue for reimbursement of the estimated $800K per day of additional policing costs.


I might be wrong but I think OPS gets federal funds for some of this sort of thing.  Cost of democracy and free speech.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jan 2022)

This movement became a Rorschach protest even before it reach Ottawa.

I have seen enough comments on handwritten signs (including locally) to conclude that people who have attached themselves to the protests are not all neo-Nazis.  Many different grievances are involved.

The difficulty with expressing support for a protest is the situational rules which depend in part on political alignments.  A critic of violent anarchists attached to a BLM protest will likely be accused of racism.  A Nazi flag at a protest becomes a pretext to accuse everyone involved of Nazi extremism.  It matters whether the use of a symbol is "Hooray for whatever-this-symbol-represents", or "boo-for-you-people-acting-like-whatever-this-symbol-represents".

It shouldn't need pointing out, but:
1. Expressing support for the right to protest is not discreditable.
2. Expressing support for some of the grievances is not necessarily discreditable (depends on the grievance).
3. If you have trouble separating (1) and (2) from things which are actually discreditable, you are not very bright.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jan 2022)

> Same as the ultimate goal of the NDP is to keep the LPC out if power, but you don't hear them complaining about it.



Hogwash.  Mulcair jettisoned all the hard work done by Layton the instant he toed the "anybody but Conservative" line.  What that really amounts to in most cases is, "Vote LPC".  All the LPC has to do is scare the NDP into believing the CPC might win even a minority, and the NDP will cave.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Latest convoy fundraiser update as of this post
> View attachment 68397



Imagine all the Twitter detectives picking the the donation names and amounts looking for secret messages.


----------



## Altair (31 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hogwash.  Mulcair jettisoned all the hard work done by Layton the instant he toed the "anybody but Conservative" line.  What that really amounts to in most cases is, "Vote LPC".  All the LPC has to do is scare the NDP into believing the CPC might win even a minority, and the NDP will cave.


Yet all those left leaning votes that would probably go LPC are in the NDP camp, even after the fear mongering.

That is 15-20 percent of the electorate. Conservatives are complaining about 5 percent.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

The NDP want a liberal minority.  It’s the only way they can get what they want,  that’s the sweet spot for the NDP. So keeping them in power is in their best interest.


----------



## Altair (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> The NDP want a liberal minority.  It’s the only way they can get what they want,  that’s the sweet spot for the NDP. So keeping them in power is in their best interest.


Yes, the ultimate goal of the NDP is to keep the LPC out of power. If we look at power being a majority government. 

Again, the LPC has to deal with 15-20 percent of the electorate which would likely otherwise vote for them vote for another party. (more if you include the greens, but they are less a unitary party than the NDP) The CPC has to deal with 5 percent. 

Something people should think about every time they complain about Bernier.


----------



## RangerRay (31 Jan 2022)

You’d think with the $1 million released by Go-Fund-Me, they wouldn’t have to raid a soup kitchen to get fed…🤔


----------



## Altair (31 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> You’d think with the $1 million released by Go-Fund-Me, they wouldn’t have to raid a soup kitchen to get fed…🤔


Yeah, and with so many pickup trucks and supporters, you would think they would have a convoy of food being bought and brought in.


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> You’d think with the $1 million released by Go-Fund-Me, they wouldn’t have to raid a soup kitchen to get fed…🤔


Did they raid it, or barracks room lawyer it? Words have meanings, raid implies they took food by force, rather than by badgering the staff with claims of being "homeless" in Ottawa. 

Both are classless moves, but one is significantly worse than the other.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> $9.2 million.  If only it was possible for the City of Ottawa to sue for reimbursement of the estimated $800K per day of additional policing costs.


Sue for what? Those people have a right to be there. Was anyone suing for costs to Canadians when the FN protesters shut down the whole Canadian rail system? Who pays for everything when protesters block pipelines, spike trees and damage thousands of dollars in equipment? So far as I'm aware, not one single person has been arrested so far in this protest. Does Ottawa get reimbursed for security and support on Canada Day. Do they get reimbersed everytime there is a protest on the Hill? Serious question.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Altair said:


> Yes, the ultimate goal of the NDP is to keep the LPC out of power. If we look at power being a majority government.
> 
> Again, the LPC has to deal with 15-20 percent of the electorate which would likely otherwise vote for them vote for another party. (more if you include the greens, but they are less a unitary party than the NDP) The CPC has to deal with 5 percent.
> 
> Something people should think about every time they complain about Bernier.


I take being in power being the guys with the ability to govern.  Minority or majority. 

The issue is that while LPC may have a margin to play with that is larger than the CPCs that margin loss is normally what keeps them in minority territory.  As someone pointed out, NDP voters will swing to the LPC if they fear a COC win is imminent.   They will never vote CPC.  So it’s 15 to 20 percent the CPC a will never get but the  LPC  can still get.   So that 5% becomes way more important because they also have to contend with red Tories that could also go LPC or just stay home. 

And if that 5% is spread out and creates issues for vote efficiency then it becomes exponential rather than the 15 or 20 that might be more concentrated in areas like the GTA.

The ultimate goal for the NDP is to keep the CPC out of power and that includes supporting the LPC to do it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Jan 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Latest convoy fundraiser update as of this post
> View attachment 68397


1,000 trucks will burn roughly $4,000,000 in fuel alone from Vancouver>Ottawa and return. So the money is not as much as you think and I bet it's mostly small donations, meaning a lot of people have donated.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Serious answer is found on the OPS website.  Not sure what the total amount is but somewhere near 2 million a year to offset costs not accounted for anything that already has a cost recovery program already in place. 

I suspect OPS will be asking for some more offset.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> You’d think with the $1 million released by Go-Fund-Me, they wouldn’t have to raid a soup kitchen to get fed…🤔


Do you know for a fact it was convoy participants? Or was it another group maybe? I find it extremely unlikely that anyone would go on such a huge trip without considering the logistics of food, shelter and warmth. Especially people that make a living travelling around North America. I can't see people that are policing up their garbage, bagging it and taking it to collection points as the type that would trash a soup kitchen. However, after reading and participating in discussions here, about the convoy, nothing comes as a surprise anymore.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> You’d think with the $1 million released by Go-Fund-Me, they wouldn’t have to raid a soup kitchen to get fed…🤔


A donation from them would certainly be nice.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> You’d think with the $1 million released by Go-Fund-Me, they wouldn’t have to raid a soup kitchen to get fed…🤔


Yes and no.
I'm sure we've all met some highly educated 'experts in logistics' in the military who managed to royally f**k everything up with a lot less moving parts.

Organizer appears to be in and out of the oil and gas industry as a secretary with a dip into fitness.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

They lost The Sun.


> Stop holding the city hostage.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488222542531862534


----------



## Haggis (31 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yes and no.
> I'm sure we've all met some highly educated 'experts in logistics' in the military who managed to royally f**k everything up with a lot less moving parts.
> 
> Organizer appears to be in and out of the oil and gas industry as a secretary with dip into fitness.


For truckers, the logistics of driving cross country are pretty simple, especially if someone else is paying your consumables.  So, getting them to Ottawa was the easy part.  Listening to Pat King (yes, I do, because I have friends and family that work in Ottawa, so I want SA on both side of the story) it's clear that the sustainment piece was missing from his plan and he's putting that together with gun tape and 550 cord.


----------



## Navy_Pete (31 Jan 2022)

My $0.02 is a lot of these people are soft AF.

Having to wear a mask is inconvenient at times throughout the day at best; try working a job where an N95 mask is your normal PPE, and you still end up with all kinds of crap clogging up your sinuses (or worse yet, where you should have a mask but don't).

The hyperbole about restrictions to freedom and slippery slope etc is BS, and lockdowns and proper health care were previously only a privilege of the rich. In this pandemic in Canada vaccines were free, extra benefits were available for those that lost their jobs, and if you do get sick health is now covered. Still not great with lots of challenges but really a far cry from what people are making it out to be, and the comparisons to the Holocaust etc are disgusting.

A lot of the behaviour is pretty ignorant and completely undermines any real message they may have had, and arguably they never had anything to start with. Protesting against the border crossing requirement may have made sense, if they didn't also need to be vaccinated to even get into the US to start with, but protesting the provincial mandates, the GoC in general, Trudeau in particular, and god knows what else has turned them into a joke. The idiots parking and dancing on the war memorial, harassing/assaulting folks at the food kitchen and getting the malls shut down just really bring it together that this is a colossal waste of their time that will have no impact and just harden public opinion against them. If the medium is the message their medium so far includes literal shit on the sidewalks and all kinds of ignorant behaviour and will be glad to see them gone.

The whole thing is such a giant self goal they must be Leaf fans.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

Sikh trucker at the protest talking about the lack of racism he's encountered. He seems to be having a good time.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487882022844448769

Elon Musk chimes in again.
Elon Musk says 'fringe minority is actually the government' in tweets about trucker protest​


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> They lost The Sun.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488222542531862534


This the exact sentiment in the city right now.  

Residents just want them to GTFO now.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> This the exact sentiment in the city *immediately proximal to the protest* right now.
> 
> Residents *mostly near the protest* just want them to GTFO now.



Probably *more accurate*.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Probably *more accurate*.


Or the ones that need to go downtown and back or the ones who rely on the jobs downtown etc. 

I don’t live near there and I’d like them to move on. Point was made.  Move on.


----------



## Navy_Pete (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Probably *more accurate*.


Not really, they have to sleep somewhere and they are spread around the NCR. 30 minutes outside the city and had to step in for some cashier being harassed by some ass clown going on about the GoC being fascists when she asked him to put on a mask (IAW provincial requirements).

Seriously, GTFO of here. If the GoC were actually fascists or communists they would all be disappeared for 're-education' by now. (or maybe just 'education'; re-education implies the initial one was successful).


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> This the exact sentiment in the city right now.
> 
> Residents just want them to GTFO now.





Remius said:


> Or the ones that need to go downtown and back or the ones who rely on the jobs downtown etc.
> 
> I don’t live near there and I’d like them to move on. Point was made.  Move on.



I live in Ottawa, I am not upset with it. I can live with inconvenience.... 

Has the point been made, when the guy they came to talk to refuses to listen and keeps pretending they are just a fringe minority?


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

I didn't realize the main criteria of a protest is to be convenient for everyone.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I live in Ottawa, I am not upset with it. I can live with inconvenience....
> 
> Has the point been made, when the guy they came to talk to refuses to listen and keeps pretending they are just a fringe minority?


@Furniture, we’re going to have to let others speak for us, I suppose. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I live in Ottawa, I am not upset with it. I can live with inconvenience....
> 
> Has the point been made, when the guy they came to talk to refuses to listen and keeps pretending they are just a fringe minority?


Ironically, although I disagree with a lot of his politics, his Father was a heck of a Statesman and knew how to actually LEAD:






Amazing to see a Prime Minister speak, in public, without canned answers or talking points and.....
Actually address and not hide from the issues.

Maybe our leader needs to look to their Father for guidance? 🤔


----------



## Quirky (31 Jan 2022)

Cheeky thread split with the first post.


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Ironically, although I disagree with a lot of his politics, his Father was a heck of a Statesman and knew how to actually LEAD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He did pick up the smug smile.... I guess he learned _something_.


----------



## lenaitch (31 Jan 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Do you know for a fact it was convoy participants? Or was it another group maybe? I find it extremely unlikely that anyone would go on such a huge trip without considering the logistics of food, shelter and warmth. Especially people that make a living travelling around North America. I can't see people that are policing up their garbage, bagging it and taking it to collection points as the type that would trash a soup kitchen. However, after reading and participating in discussions here, about the convoy, nothing comes as a surprise anymore.


Fair point.  I doubt anybody knows whether they were actually convoy participants, other protesters or simply people downtown wandering around taking in (or advantage of) the show.

*****
Whether they "raided" the soup kitchen or somehow otherwise intimidated the staff to give them food is little more than parsing words.  I saw the CEO interviewed this morning and she said her staff of volunteers is pretty good at dealing with 'troubled' people by virtue of the clientele they deal with.  It seems they felt that giving them food would defuse the situation and they would be on their way, which they did.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Seriously, GTFO of here.






dimsum said:


> I live right in the thick of it.  Horns have been going pretty much non-stop outside.
> 
> I can confirm that the trucks (of which it's a small minority) are not from the major carriers.  Some have also covered up company names, but that's an even smaller subset.  They seem to be independents.
> 
> I can also confirm that I have not seen one single non-Caucasian truck/car/pick-up driver.  Lots of folks in "camouflage" though.  But I'm a sample size of 1 and I refused to go towards Parliament.



The Mayor put it this way:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1487896147809112064
Doesn't sound like they won a lot of hearts and minds in Ottawa.

As for the drivers working to keep Canada supplied.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> I live in Ottawa, I am not upset with it. I can live with inconvenience....
> 
> Has the point been made, when the guy they came to talk to refuses to listen and keeps pretending they are just a fringe minority?


If the point hasn’t been made by now then it won’t be made at all. 

Time to go or change their plan.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> If the point hasn’t been made by now then it won’t be made at all.
> 
> Time to go or change their plan.


That's not how a successful protest against the government works though. You need to inconvenience citizens to the point where the apply an over abundance of pressure on the government to make a deal, meet demands, arrest them etc..


----------



## dapaterson (31 Jan 2022)

From the images I saw on TV, it was an above average sized protest on the weekend.  I've been to NHL games with bigger crowds, though (well, maybe not in Ottawa...)


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's not how a successful protest against the government works though. You need to inconvenience citizens to the point where the apply an over abundance of pressure on the government to make a deal, meet demands, arrest them etc..


Right.  Hurt the people they are purporting to be fighting for.  

Should work out fine then.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Right.  Hurt the people they are purporting to be fighting for.
> 
> Should work out fine then.


You mean the people don't generally don't give a fig about truckers and just see them always as inconvenience on the highway. A lot of average Canadians went out in the cold and showed their support. the people in Ottawa generally work for the big machine or provide services to it, so in a way they are part of the problem as well in the truckers mind. Ottawa as a whole is the "Great Hive mind" to most other Canadians.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Right.  Hurt the people they are purporting to be fighting for.
> 
> Should work out fine then.


Yea you're not wrong brother. 

As you're aware the Liberals were elected even though they didn't have a majority of the votes. Lots of Canadians have reason to be upset (I have over $10K myself). It's safe to suspect some of the people there have a number of reasons to see the Liberals inconvienced and under pressure which aren't directly mandate related. 

The Liberals aren't shy about name calling and accusing people of being unCanadian. That tends to piss people off.

What did Trudeau snicker about? "You're not in Alberta anymore".  Guess some of them came to him. Little reap what you sow on the menu.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Right.  Hurt the people they are purporting to be fighting for.
> 
> Should work out fine then.



Right. Lay siege to your own people in their capitol city, and cut the lines of supply to the rest of the country.

Great way to win hearts and minds.

The Teamsters union has the right to strike. But, they didn't call for a strike. And do not support this, whatever it is called.

This is political. That is why we have elections.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jan 2022)

> Residents just want them to GTFO now.



Suddenly, protestors setting up shop in major traffic areas stopped being something we should tolerate.


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Right.  Hurt the people they are purporting to be fighting for.
> 
> Should work out fine then.


Those same businesses that were demanding that federal government workers go back to work in their offices, because they wanted federal civil servant pay in their pockets? You'll forgive me if I shed no tears for them... 

Seems like exactly the group of businesses to put pressure on if you want change though.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> From the images I saw on TV, it was an above average sized protest on the weekend.  I've been to NHL games with bigger crowds, though (well, maybe not in Ottawa...)


To be fair as far as a protest goes it is fairly large by any standard Ottawa usually sees.  In another lifetime I worked on parliament hill through countless protests big and small.  I would classify this as big.   

But I’ve seen far larger crowds on Canada day.  And have worked many of those as well.  And in fairness to the more or less peaceful nature of this one, there were far more drunk people, fights, public urination and minor vandalism on Those Canada day celebrations.  

I will concede that.

But it lasted one night.  And businesses and services were not shut down and emergency workers were never blocked.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> Those same businesses that were demanding that federal government workers go back to work in their offices, because they wanted federal civil servant pay in their pockets? You'll forgive me if I shed no tears for them...
> 
> Seems like exactly the group of businesses to put pressure on if you want change though.


Wow.


----------



## Happy Guy (31 Jan 2022)

I live in Ottawa and I have been inconvenience by this protest.  Point has been made. Trudeau is not going to meet the protesters.  I want the protesters to go home.

I understand what the truckers want and I want to return to life before it was too.  I am mindful of how important truckers are in the supply chain.

I'm tired of the restrictions.
I'm tired of having to go through the same cycle of restrictions, loosening of restrictions, back to restrictions within a few months.
I'm tired of the media looking for the looney or the most awkward looking person in crowd and construe that this person represents the entire protest movement.
I'm tired of Trudeau smearing the truckers as a lunatic, racist fringe element.
I'm tired of seeing the truckers go into small businesses without wearing masks and them being rude to the employees there.
I'm tired of truckers parking in residential neighbourhoods, like where I live and leaving their trucks running.
I'm tired of hearing honking horns in our neighbourhood.
I'm tired of the protest leadership and their participants of not being able to isolate and remove the racist, far right elements hiding in the protest.
I'm tired of the protesters blocking streets since Friday, 28 Jan.
I'm tired of how the Canadian, Ontario and Québec Flags are being mistreated

and most of all I protest at seeing a picture of a male protester wearing a black thong in the National Post report today.  It was an image that I can never erase from my innocent and pure mind.


----------



## Haggis (31 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The Liberals aren't shy about name calling and accusing people of being unCanadian. That tends to piss people off.


Today was the first time I heard the PM publicly mention the tin foil hat crowd. This was in reference to the truckers.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea you're not wrong brother.
> 
> As you're aware the Liberals were elected even though they didn't have a majority of the votes. Lots of Canadians have reason to be upset (I have over $10K myself). It's safe to suspect some of the people there have a number of reasons to see the Liberals inconvienced and under pressure which aren't directly mandate related.
> 
> ...


I get that.  But he was still legally and democratically elected.  I didn’t vote for him and don’t plan to vote for him if he runs again.  One of the reasons is his language.  But as someone said, that’s why we have elections. 

Liberals aren’t being inconvenienced,  parliament still happened today.  But bars, restaurants, gyms all scheduled and planned to reopen today in that area did not.


----------



## Gunnar (31 Jan 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> and most of all I protest at seeing a picture of a male protester wearing a black thong in the National Post report today. It was an image that I can never erase from my innocent and pure mind.


I didn't see it and it's stuck in my mind.  Thanks a lot!


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Gunnar said:


> I didn't see it and it's stuck in my mind.  Thanks a lot!


Probably a metaphor for something…


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Suddenly, protestors setting up shop in major traffic areas stopped being something we should tolerate.


I sure the people in Ottawa are shedding a tear for the commuters blocked by a bunch of greenie nutbars in Vancouver, something we had to deal with a lot more than Ottawa does. These nutbars are more or less encouraged by the Libs, NDP and Green Party.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Suddenly, protestors setting up shop in major traffic areas stopped being something we should tolerate.


Until the next rail blockade or major pipeline protest.


----------



## Navy_Pete (31 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You mean the people don't generally don't give a fig about truckers and just see them always as inconvenience on the highway. A lot of average Canadians went out in the cold and showed their support. the people in Ottawa generally work for the big machine or provide services to it, so in a way they are part of the problem as well in the truckers mind. Ottawa as a whole is the "Great Hive mind" to most other Canadians.


So one of the angriest people I've heard from today is a delivery driver here in Ottawa, who couldn't get his deliveries done, and got harassed by a bunch of Proud Boy types for not looking white enough.

If you look at a map of Ottawa and try and find a way to get from one side of the city to the other, or from Ottawa to Gatineau (or vice versa) you'll see how big an impact it is snarling up downtown. They've shut down the major thoroughfare that all the public transit runs through and any truck drivers in the city have to fight through, so good job.

I'm also tired of COVID, and the mandates and everything else, and was looking forward to Ontario easing things off again today, and being able to maybe see some friends, but now I can't because of people protesting against the mandates/vaccines/the moon/the colour yellow.

You get kind of used to large protests downtown here in Ottawa, but this is the first time I remember people being angry at one.

Wouldn't be surprised if this actually delays restrictions easing because they don't want the perception that they caved to demands from a collection of assholes, so thanks FluTruxKlan.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2022)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=462870085217298


----------



## dapaterson (31 Jan 2022)

Mind you, it's suburban Ottawa that has prevented an eastern bridge from being built for many years, contributing to the chaos.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Today was the first time I heard the PM publicly mention the tin foil hat crowd. This was in reference to the truckers.


…but also very careful not to cede any validity in regard to the peaceful majority’s concerns.  He spent more time critiquing the Opposition Leader’s words, even though those words included element that many here as well have acknowledged as valid. 

Strange that many here going hard on the overall effort then follow up with an “I’m frustrated too and can’t wait for these restrictions to end…” but then of course, get back on to the “inconveniencing” storyline.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Mind you, it's suburban Ottawa that has prevented an eastern bridge from being built for many years, contributing to the chaos.



Yeah, those evil Ottawa suburbanites screwing over the gentry of downtown.  How dare democracy allow such a thing here in Canada!  Ottawans downtown pay their taxes and deserve not to be inconvenienced.  That should only happen to citizens in rural or remote areas and when it’s First Nations or environmentalists protesting and blocking roads or railways.


----------



## dapaterson (31 Jan 2022)

It's Vanier and Orleans specifically that have prevented new bridges, keeping the central bridges as choke points.

But I think getting into Ottawa's internal politics is a slight digression...


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So one of the angriest people I've heard from today is a delivery driver here in Ottawa, who couldn't get his deliveries done, and got harassed by a bunch of Proud Boy types for not looking white enough.
> 
> If you look at a map of Ottawa and try and find a way to get from one side of the city to the other, or from Ottawa to Gatineau (or vice versa) you'll see how big an impact it is snarling up downtown. They've shut down the major thoroughfare that all the public transit runs through and any truck drivers in the city have to fight through, so good job.
> 
> ...


Except the restrictions are eased, and you could take a few extra minutes to get together with your friends if it mattered to you... 

Here is a convenient link to the Government of Ontario site that lists restrictions, followed by the City of Ottawa restrictions.

COVID-19 public health measures and advice

Provincial and City rules  | City of Ottawa


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> It's Vanier and Orleans specifically that have prevented new bridges, keeping the central bridges as choke points.
> 
> But I think getting into Ottawa's internal politics is a slight digression...


Can't have a new bridge in Vanier, might interfere with shutting down Montreal Rd. for never ending construction


----------



## dapaterson (31 Jan 2022)

And connecting it to a N/S road built specifically to serve as a connection would be illogical...


----------



## Happy Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, those evil Ottawa suburbanites screwing over the gentry of downtown.  How dare democracy allow such a thing here in Canada!  Ottawans downtown pay their taxes and deserve not to be inconvenienced.  That should only happen to citizens in rural or remote areas and when it’s First Nations or environmentalists protesting and blocking roads or railways.


May I please remind you that:
All animals are equal but some are more equal than others​You're welcome


----------



## Mick (31 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …but also very careful not to cede any validity in regard to the peaceful majority’s concerns.  He spent more time critiquing the Opposition Leader’s words, even though those words included element that many here as well have acknowledged as valid.
> 
> *Strange that many here going hard on the overall effort then follow up with an “I’m frustrated too and can’t wait for these restrictions to end…” but then of course, get back on to the “inconveniencing” storyline.*



Of course everyone is sick and tired of ongoing public health measures.  I don't know anyone who isn't.

But the vast majority of people aren't resorting to what has essentially become a very public temper tantrum that lacks a coherent message, and coherent goals. 

As many here have pointed out, whatever the original intent was has been drowned out - not only by a small minority of bad actors, but by incoherent and unrealistic goals.

Premiers and provincial public health officials were already planning incremental relaxing of restrictions, with some even musing about moving back to normalcy by learning to "live with COVID".  Does anyone really believe that these protests will accelerate that process?

Everyone wants to get back to normal, and I acknowledge that a lot of people are angry, but protests like this won't make it happen any sooner.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Mick said:


> Of course everyone is sick and tired of ongoing public health measures.  I don't know anyone who isn't.
> 
> But the vast majority of people aren't resorting to what has essentially become a very public temper tantrum that lacks a coherent message, and coherent goals.
> 
> ...


Sometimes people just need to scream out their frustration. This is a scream.


----------



## Kat Stevens (31 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Today was the first time I heard the PM publicly mention the tin foil hat crowd. This was in reference to the truckers.


Psy ops. Make your opposition inferior to you, dehumanize them. From there it's a short hop to it being okay to hate them.  Then it's weapons free.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Great way to win hearts and minds.


The whole hearts and minds thing doesn't work very well.


Remius said:


> Liberals aren’t being inconvenienced,  parliament still happened today.  But bars, restaurants, gyms all scheduled and planned to reopen today in that area did not.



You're right the LPC are not inconvenienced at this time. It's only been 3 days. 
People will continue to get more and more pissed off and start demanding action. 

Speaking of which Trudeau is refusing to speak to these guys and girls. That's hardly open minded or conducive of resolving conflict. It generally has the opposite effect. 

In fact, I would suggest it's almost like he's refusing to speak with them in order to ramp things up on purpose and really get tempers really flying.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The whole hearts and minds thing doesn't work very well.
> 
> 
> You're right the LPC are not inconvenienced at this time. It's only been 3 days.
> ...


Didn’t he get rocks thrown at him once?  I don’t think these people want to actually talk to him to be honest.


----------



## Furniture (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Didn’t he get rocks thrown at him once?  I don’t think these people want to actually talk to him to be honest.


There are ones he could find who would talk. If he had gone the O'Tool route, and sought them out, rather than waiting until they were entrenched and angry he would have had better luck though.


----------



## Happy Guy (31 Jan 2022)

Mick said:


> Of course everyone is sick and tired of ongoing public health measures.  I don't know anyone who isn't.
> 
> But the vast majority of people aren't resorting to what has essentially become a very public temper tantrum that lacks a coherent message, and coherent goals.
> 
> ...


Speaking of getting back to normal:
Health officials are hinting at ending COVID restrictions (and not because of the truckers)


----------



## QV (31 Jan 2022)

Interview with one of the organizers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> Didn’t he get rocks thrown at him once?  I don’t think these people want to actually talk to him to be honest.


That's a huge "these people" connection to make.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> Speaking of getting back to normal:
> Health officials are hinting at ending COVID restrictions (and not because of the truckers)




Good!  It's time to get on with life.  We all know the risks.  Govern yourself accordingly.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's a huge "these people" connection to make.


Possibly.  Do you really think these people want to “talk”?


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Furniture said:


> There are ones he could find who would talk. If he had gone the O'Tool route, and sought them out, rather than waiting until they were entrenched and angry he would have had better luck though.


Maybe.  Btw it seems that O’toole may be out as leader.  Just breaking now.


----------



## RangerRay (31 Jan 2022)

The more I think about it, the more the incoherence and fringyness of this protest reminds me of Occupy back in the day. You just need them to start pitching tents on Parliament Hill and a “peoples’ microphone” to argue minutiae of their manifesto with each other.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The more I think about it, the more the incoherence and fringyness of this protest reminds me of Occupy back in the day. You just need them to start pitching tents on Parliament Hill and a “peoples’ microphone” to argue minutiae of their manifesto with each other.


Actually you aren’t far off the mark with that comparison.


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2022)

Meanwhile in Alberta.









						Kenney condemns Coutts border blockade
					

In the tweet, Kenney said the blockade at the Coutts border is in violation of the Alberta Traffic Safety Act.




					westernstandardonline.com
				




Seems like he isn’t a fan of the trucker convoy currently in Coutts.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jan 2022)

> Does anyone really believe that these protests will accelerate that process?



Yes.  Policy has lagged public sentiment throughout this whole thing, starting with the adoption of measures and ending with the relaxation of measures.  Active protestors are only a visible fraction of public sentiment.  For the sake of face, that the protests have any influence will be denied.  But politicians are still mostly weathervanes.


----------



## Mick (31 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes.  Policy has lagged public sentiment throughout this whole thing, starting with the adoption of measures and ending with the relaxation of measures.  Active protestors are only a visible fraction of public sentiment.



I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the protestors had articulated a coherent message or goals grounded in reality.



Brad Sallows said:


> For the sake of face, that the protests have any influence will be denied.  But politicians are still mostly weathervanes.



I'd be surprised if some protestors don't attempt to take credit for pre-planned relaxation of the temporary measures they oppose.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Possibly.  Do you really think these people want to “talk”?


I don't think it's fair to try and lump everyone together in one collective hive mind.
I think a lot of them probably do want to talk. I think there's a good portion that doesn't, as well.

The Prime Minister has went on the record as being the latter. What's the wisdom behind him refusing to engage in a conversation? Things will just balance themselves and they'll go away?

Does anyone here think the Prime Minister and LPC don't stand to benefit politically from the protest turning violent?


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Feb 2022)

The coherence and substance of the protestors' grievances is much less important to politicians than the fact of unrest.

The immediate action for responding to political pressure is to ignore it.  They've skipped straight from that to ridicule and defamation, so they're definitely feeling pressure.


----------



## Mick (1 Feb 2022)

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Canadians are sick and tired of COVID and all of the measures put in place to manage it.

An angry, vocal minority has staged these protests, but I don't believe that they have garnered the broad public support that you seem to think they have.  

Most of the ridicule I've seen levelled at them hasn't been from the politicians...


----------



## Furniture (1 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> I have no doubt that the vast majority of Canadians are sick and tired of COVID and all of the measures put in place to manage it.
> 
> An angry, vocal minority has staged these protests, but I don't believe that they have garnered the broad public support that you seem to think they have.
> 
> Most of the ridicule I've seen levelled at them hasn't been from the politicians...


How much of the ridicule is based on the social stigma associated with supporting it?

Trump polled very low before the vote in 2016, because the media made it so toxic to say you supported him that you had to keep it to yourself. There are many anonymous donations to the protest, that tells me people want to support it, but can't risk the social stigma of openly supporting it...

This editorial from CTV sums up my thoughts fairly well. 

Don Martin: Trudeau's 'fringe' may keep on truckin' into something bigger


----------



## Mick (1 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> How much of the ridicule is based on the social stigma associated with supporting it?
> 
> Trump polled very low before the vote in 2016, because the media made it so toxic to say you supported him that you had to keep it to yourself. There are many anonymous donations to the protest, that tells me people want to support it, but can't risk the social stigma of openly supporting it...
> 
> ...



Fully agree that the PM is scoring short-term political points without considering the longer-term effects of his rhetoric re the protestors.

I think the article accurately sums up most Canadians' frustrations with this pandemic and our governments' responses.

But, even Don Martin acknowledges that the protest is incoherent at best:

"No doubt Trudeau will be wildly applauded by most Canadians for his hard red line against a protest whose head-scratching leadership is advocating the overthrow of this government."


----------



## Furniture (1 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> Fully agree that the PM is scoring short-term political points without considering the longer-term effects of his rhetoric re the protestors.
> 
> I think the article accurately sums up most Canadians' frustrations with this pandemic and our governments' responses.
> 
> ...


He'll get some immediate support, but if the protest morphs into something more, his stance may come back to bite him hard. 

On an unrelated note, the Canadian Press proves they are biased against conservative views... 

Calling the Ottawa protests 'peaceful' downplays non-violent dangers, critics say

Does the media think the public is this dumb, or do they just assume tribalism will win out every time they post something dumb?


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't think it's fair to try and lump everyone together in one collective hive mind.
> I think a lot of them probably do want to talk. I think there's a good portion that doesn't, as well.
> 
> The Prime Minister has went on the record as being the latter. What's the wisdom behind him refusing to engage in a conversation? Things will just balance themselves and they'll go away?
> ...


He’s already scored political points with all the minor shenanigans.  He can tank all the bad actors for providing that fuel.  

It has nothing to do with lumping the group.  He definitely won’t meet a mob.  His security detail is likely doing its job.  

So who does he meet?  The leaders of this?  King, Lich and Lichter?  (Sounds like a trio of Dungeon and Dragons bad guys lol).  And then who?  Unity Canada?  They gave a list of demands that shows either a fundamental misunderstanding of how our political system works or they are crazy.   

That leaves the legit truckers.  Who don’t seem to have a real leader or spokesperson other than the FluTruxKlan three that I mentioned.  

So what about the actual voice of the truckers?  The CTA.  Looks THEY had a meeting with the minister on Jan 31st.

Looks like they said that the protesters don’t speak for the industry.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't think it's fair to try and lump everyone together in one collective hive mind.
> I think a lot of them probably do want to talk. I think there's a good portion that doesn't, as well.
> 
> The Prime Minister has went on the record as being the latter. What's the wisdom behind him refusing to engage in a conversation? Things will just balance themselves and they'll go away?
> ...


He’s already scored political points with all the minor shenanigans.  He can tank all the bad actors for providing that fuel.  

It has nothing to do with lumping the group.  He definitely won’t meet a mob.  His security detail is likely doing its job.  

So who does he meet?  The leaders of this?  King, Lich and Lichter?  (Sounds like a trio of Dungeon and Dragons bad guys lol).  And then who?  Unity Canada?  They gave a list of demands that shows either a fundamental misunderstanding of how our political system works or they are crazy.   

That leaves the legit truckers.  Who don’t seem to have a real leader or spokesperson other than the FluTruxKlan three that I mentioned.  

So what about the actual voice of the truckers?  The CTA.  Looks THEY had a meeting with the minister on Jan 31st.

Looks like they said that the protesters don’t speak for the industry.


----------



## Haggis (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> So what about the actual voice of the truckers?  The CTA.  Looks THEY had a meeting with the minister on Jan 31st.
> 
> Looks like they said that the protesters don’t speak for the industry.


The CTA stated as much long before this protest reached Ottawa.  They made a point of distancing themselves from this early on.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> He’s already scored political points with all the minor shenanigans.  He can tank all the bad actors for providing that fuel.
> 
> It has nothing to do with lumping the group.  He definitely won’t meet a mob.  His security detail is likely doing its job.
> 
> ...



Maybe he can meet with Rebel News. They seem really good at calming things down  


*BREAKING: Alberta Truckers have asked for help, so we're crowdfunding a lawyer for them*

We've hired the perfect lawyer for this, Chad Williamson and he’s bringing a team with him. Chad will do whatever he can to help — including to help de-escalate the situation.









						BREAKING: Alberta Truckers have asked for help, so we're crowdfunding a lawyer for them
					

We've hired the perfect lawyer for this, Chad Williamson and he’s bringing a team with him. Chad will do whatever he can to help — including to help de-escalate the situation.




					www.rebelnews.com


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The CTA stated as much long before this protest reached Ottawa.  They made a point of distancing themselves from this early on.



So did the union.

*Teamsters General President Jim Hoffa*
HOFFA: COVID-19 VACCINE OFFERS FREEDOM​


> We can’t let politics infiltrate what is just good policy.











						Hoffa: COVID-19 Vaccine Offers Freedom, So Do Your Part to Help
					

By Teamsters General President Jim HoffaPublished in the Detroit News, June 2, 2021    The coronavirus pandemic has held America captive for some 15 months, tak




					teamster.org
				




I think his father, wherever he is, would be proud.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Maybe he can meet with Rebel News. They seem really good at calming things down
> 
> 
> *BREAKING: Alberta Truckers have asked for help, so we're crowdfunding a lawyer for them*
> ...


Ah so it seems Alberta isn’t taking lightly to a trucker protest.  Hope Ottawa starts to get things moving here as well.


----------



## QV (1 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> I have no doubt that the vast majority of Canadians are sick and tired of COVID and all of the measures put in place to manage it.
> 
> An angry, vocal minority has staged these protests, but I don't believe that they have garnered the broad public support that you seem to think they have.
> 
> Most of the ridicule I've seen levelled at them hasn't been from the politicians...


Most of the ridicule I've seen levelled at them is from this forum and public servants who get paid to stay home.  The general public, that I interact with, largely support this protest.


----------



## Scott (1 Feb 2022)

Well the general public I interact with don't support them. In fact, the only support I see for them now is on this forum.

Who's next?


----------



## Mick (1 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Most of the ridicule I've seen levelled at them is from this forum and public servants who get paid to stay home.  The general public, that I interact with, largely support this protest.



I suppose it all depends on who you interact with - I have had the opposite experience here in AB. 

FWIW I work in an industry with requirements that are nearly identical to those being protested.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> FWIW I work in an industry with requirements that are nearly identical to those being protested.



My former union sent a rep to hold their hands when they got fired.

That was it as far as support went.


----------



## trigger324 (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Maybe.  Btw it seems that O’toole may be out as leader.  Just breaking now.


That’s two now. It’s finally occurred to the party the people they’re putting in place to lead us are the reasons we lose the elections of late.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> ... So who does he meet?  The leaders of this?  King, Lich and Lichter?  (Sounds like a trio of Dungeon and Dragons bad guys lol).  And then who?  Unity Canada?  They gave a list of demands that shows either a fundamental misunderstanding of how our political system works or they are crazy ...


That's the rub.  With a lot of fluid, multi-issue (I know it's generally anti-mandate here, but a lot of other things seem to come up re:  what gov't should be doing) grassroots organizations, if you speak to command team x, command team y'll say, "hey, they don't speak for us" and splinter team z'll say "Splinters!"  And that goes for many multi-faceted grassroots groups.

Then again, the stage hasn't been set from the government side to talk to anyone at this point, so this could just be academic for now.


----------



## QV (1 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> I suppose it all depends on who you interact with - I have had the opposite experience here in AB.
> 
> FWIW I work in an industry with requirements that are nearly identical to those being protested.


I'd wager there is broad support for this in varying degrees. Some support removing mandates, some support Trudeau stepping down, almost everyone is sick and tired of the 2 years of restrictions, censorship, firings, division, and multiple jabs to flatten a curve that has yet to flatten.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (1 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> $9.2 million.  If only it was possible for the City of Ottawa to sue for reimbursement of the estimated $800K per day of additional policing costs.



Great minds think alike . . .  fools . . . yada, yada . . .









						A not-so-bold prediction: that $9.5-million GoFundMe pot will be a tempting target for Ottawa civil lawyers - Alberta Politics
					

The mysteriously sourced “Freedom Convoy 2022” account on the GoFundMe crowd-funding site sat at more than $9.5 million yesterday. Its fund-raising goal, which has been repeatedly ratcheted up over the past two weeks, is now $10-million.  Meanwhile, as the occupation of their city by far-right...




					albertapolitics.ca
				





> The mysteriously sourced “Freedom Convoy 2022” account on the GoFundMe crowd-funding site sat at more than $9.5 million yesterday. Its fund-raising goal, which has been repeatedly ratcheted up over the past two weeks, is now $10-million.
> 
> Meanwhile, as the occupation of their city by far-right “freedom convoy” anti-vaccine-mandate protesters continues into its fourth full day today, Ottawa citizens are furious.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rifleman62 (1 Feb 2022)

From FOX, yeah, I know.

Hiding From The Convoy





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=658167405332231


----------



## RangerRay (1 Feb 2022)

From Matt Gurney at The Line. 









						Matt Gurney: In Ottawa, the unstoppable force approaches the immovable object
					

A significant slice of our population is furious. It doesn't matter if you think they're wrong. What are we going to do about it?




					theline.substack.com


----------



## Mick (1 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I'd wager there is broad support for this in varying degrees. Some support removing mandates, some support Trudeau stepping down, almost everyone is sick and tired of the 2 years of restrictions, censorship, firings, division, and multiple jabs to flatten a curve that has yet to flatten.



Everyone is frustrated, but that frustration doesn't automatically translate into support for the protestors or their "goals".


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Feb 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> From FOX, yeah, I know.
> 
> Hiding From The Convoy
> 
> ...


Haha, like how they are cashing in with tshirts, what a bunch of grifters.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Great minds think alike . . .  fools . . . yada, yada . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This.  And when we say people in the city are frustrated, the usual chorus says it’s all fake news and unsubstantiated opinion.  Right…

Time to GTFO.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Feb 2022)

Broad dissatisfaction is a problem.  The same factors that prompt people to mock the protestors make it difficult to address actual grievances (can't fix a problem if you can't find it).  Because it's hard to identify specific things to fix, authorities can take the easy way out - shrug their shoulders and ignore it.  So the dissatisfaction festers until the next round, when it returns, amplified and more unpleasant.  The first round is the leaders of community X, the next round is the militants of community X.

Good news is that in this case the proximate causes of some of the dissatisfaction are already being drawn down.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> So who does he meet?  The leaders of this?  King, Lich and Lichter?  (Sounds like a trio of Dungeon and Dragons bad guys lol).  And then who?  Unity Canada?  They gave a list of demands that shows either a fundamental misunderstanding of how our political system works or they are crazy.


Those are really good points. Yes who would he even meet? The protest is decentralized.

Seems like a missed opportunity to be the good guy and say "sure we'll meet and talk, who are your leaders on the ground?"
And when the meeting turns into a shit show they have the moral high ground of at least trying.

Refusing to engage with anyone will send some different messages though.

Some are going to pump their fist in support of Trudeau the brave refusing to negotiate with proverbial hostage takers (which is wrong, because we do).

Depending whether the protestors fizzle out or not people in Ottawa might start asking why the leader isn't trying to find a solution. Guess he's consigned it to a waiting game now. With $10M or so and climbing some might be inclined to stay longer and try to get in on some of that.

I don't buy the security detailing telling him no angle. I'm confident the RCMP can figure out how to set up a safe and secure meeting environment for the PM.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2022)

So has anyone got any pictures showing more than one Confederate flag or more than one swastika flag in the same shot? Any closeups of the people holding them? Any rants they were yelling or speeches they were giving? Any crowds of people gathered around yelling support for the flags? Just wondering if it was a manifest thing or just two, silent, fully masked and silent interlopers walking through the crowd.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Those are really good points. Yes who would he even meet? The protest is decentralized.
> 
> Seems like a missed opportunity to be the good guy and say "sure we'll meet and talk, who are your leaders on the ground?"
> And when the meeting turns into a shit show they have the moral high ground of at least trying.
> ...


Are you still holding your breath? Ottawa is hard red territory. With exceptions, most will blame the truckers. Trudeau is their guru and spiritual guide. The Ravi Shankar to the Beatles of Ottawa.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Ambulances pelted with rocks during protest; health workers, patients face added stress, delays
					

Throughout the weekend and into Monday, many health workers had difficulty getting to work, as did some patients who were trying to reach hospitals.




					ottawacitizen.com
				






> Paramedics asked for police escorts over the weekend after at least two ambulances were pelted with rocks and protesters who appeared to be part of the truck convoy yelled racial slurs at one paramedic when he got out to check for damage.



Braver than me. Doors locked.  Windows UP.   FIDO.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Those are really good points. Yes who would he even meet? The protest is decentralized.
> 
> Seems like a missed opportunity to be the good guy and say "sure we'll meet and talk, who are your leaders on the ground?"
> And when the meeting turns into a shit show they have the moral high ground of at least trying.
> ...


And that may have happened I don’t know.  

Was an actual request to meet sent?  And by whom?  If it’s from the ones I mentioned then I don’t blame him for not giving that any oxygen.  Or is just tweets and yelling from the street.  His security detail quite likely would advise not to go anywhere near that crowd.  Set up zone or meeting area sure but certainly not him wading into a hornets nest.  

This group doesn’t speak for the CTA.  The CTA has met with top officials.  So I’m not sure what they want more other than the current demands they have.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> This group doesn’t speak for the CTA.



They don't for any trucking organization.

Teamsters Canada, the Canadian Trucking Association, the Private Motor Truck Council of Canada, the Atlantic Provinces Trucking Association, the B.C. Trucking Association...


----------



## Scott (1 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> So has anyone got any pictures showing more than one Confederate flag or more than one swastika flag in the same shot? Any closeups of the people holding them? Any rants they were yelling or speeches they were giving? Any crowds of people gathered around yelling support for the flags? Just wondering if it was a manifest thing or just two, silent, fully masked and silent interlopers walking through the crowd.



Whatever of that bullshit was on display was enough. More would be worse than what is already pretty fuckin bad.

OPS is investigating hate crimes. That says enough to me.


----------



## dapaterson (1 Feb 2022)

This is anything but usual.  Parliamentary Protective Services  does not routinely monitor highway stops.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488590400919113728


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> This is anything but usual.  Parliamentary Protective Services  does not routinely monitor highway stops.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488590400919113728


That is odd…


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Whatever of that bullshit was on display was enough. More would be worse than what is already pretty fuckin bad.
> 
> OPS is investigating hate crimes. That says enough to me.


I want to see how many there were of them or if the Canadian Press spent all of their time chasing two false flag guys and building mountains out of molehills. Thanks for your help.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

PPS aware clearly advised of something.

For reference the 174 comes into Ottawa from the east end.  Pretty much goes to the split when it becomes the 417.  So somewhere between Orleans and the split if OPS pulled them over.


dapaterson said:


> This is anything but usual.  Parliamentary Protective Services  does not routinely monitor highway stops.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488590400919113728


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Whatever of that bullshit was on display was enough. More would be worse than what is already pretty fuckin bad.
> 
> OPS is investigating hate crimes. That says enough to me.


Apparently they’ve set up a hate crime hotline.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Kenney calls trucker blockade at U.S. border 'unlawful,' RCMP taking action
					

RCMP are moving in on a blockade of truckers and others protesting COVID-19 measures at Alberta's southern border crossing. Commercial trucks, vehicles and camper vans have been blocking the highway at the U.S.-Canada border in Coutts, Alta. since Saturday to protest COVID-19 restrictions.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




End ex in Alberta


----------



## Scott (1 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I want to see how many there were of them or if the Canadian Press spent all of their time chasing two false flag guys and building mountains out of molehills. Thanks for your help.



It was nice to see conservative media go after those losers with gusto. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488307343779581956


----------



## Scott (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apparently they’ve set up a hate crime hotline.



Because there was more than just swastikas going on.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> ... His security detail quite likely would advise not to go anywhere near that crowd.  Set up zone or meeting area sure but certainly not him wading into a hornets nest ...





Jarnhamar said:


> ... I'm confident the RCMP can figure out how to set up a safe and secure meeting environment for the PM.


And given the wide range of approaches from the group, a secure environment for a meeting =/= speaking to "all of us", so probably wouldn't be enough for many.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> This is anything but usual.  Parliamentary Protective Services  does not routinely monitor highway stops.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488590400919113728



Wouldn't the Prime Ministers protection detail have cross Canada jurisdiction?


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Wouldn't the Prime Ministers protection detail have cross Canada jurisdiction?


Parliamentary Protective Services is not the PMs protection detail.

And it would also be just as odd if they were closely monitoring a traffic stop by OPS.

Unless there is a related vector.


----------



## MARS (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Wouldn't the Prime Ministers protection detail have cross Canada jurisdiction?


I think the PMs protection detail is RCMP?  PPS are the cops who patrol parliament hill...


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Feb 2022)

P


MARS said:


> I think the PMs protection detail is RCMP?  PPS are the cops who patrol parliament hill...


PPS isn’t just Parliament Hill, but any Parliament-related facility, eg. the Senate in the old Convention Centre/Train Station.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

MARS said:


> I think the PMs protection detail is RCMP?  PPS are the cops who patrol parliament hill...


The PMs detail is a part of RCMP Protective Operations.

PPS however is not and is responsible for security of the parliamentary precinct.  They are not RCMP officers and report to the speakers.  Operations do fall under the director who is a member a of the RCMP but the organisation is a separate entity from the RCMP. 

I believe a few other organisations are stakeholders as well but not 100% sure.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2022)

The plot thickens😶


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The plot thickens😶


Maybe.  It’s a tweet though.  So might just be nothing in the end.


----------



## lenaitch (1 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Great minds think alike . . .  fools . . . yada, yada . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting concept.  I'm not aware of any legal authority to recover costs for public safety on public property.  It would be up the the city's legal department to try.  First they would have to get a court order to freeze the funds but I don't know enough about GoFundMe to know where the funds are actually held.  The money comes from hundreds of sources and it's not the the Convoy is an entity


dapaterson said:


> This is anything but usual.  Parliamentary Protective Services  does not routinely monitor highway stops.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488590400919113728


It could simply be a PPS media person wanting to convey the image that they are top of things.  Sounds a whole lot better than 'so? not our issue'.


----------



## Happy Guy (1 Feb 2022)

I am of two minds with with protest with regards to this as potential COVID superspreader event.  The majority of protesters that I physically saw were not wearing masks.  The photographs of politicians who took pictures with the protesters who both were not wearing masks.
Presuming that the majority of the protesters are anti-masks and anti-vaccine there is a chance that COVID, particularly the highly contagious Omicron, could rapidly spread amongst this group of people.  Since many of these people are deliberately walking into establishments without masks they could pass the virus to the employee, although the risk would be lower if they (the employee) were vaccinated and wearing a mask.  Another scenario is the protester going back home and passing COVID to their family or friends.

What I'm worried about is the potential rapid spread of COVID in Ottawa again as direct result of this group of people.  If this happens, we will see the return to restrictions and hospitalization of COVID patients within Ontario, Quebec and the other provinces from where the protesters came from.  Since many of them are not vaccinated there is a greater likelihood, in comparison to vaccinated people, of them requiring them to be in ICUs thereby again exhausting the health care workers and over burdening the health care system. I pity the people who surgeries, or other heath treatment, will be cancelled.  As a side note I was fortunate to receive surgery, my priority was high enough, when there was a lessening of restrictions.  

As a compassionate human being I sincerely hope that they do not catch COVID because from what I've learned this is not a particularly easy way to die.  As a father, whose daughter is working in health care and must provide care to COVID patients, I am of the mind to point the middle finger at them (people who deliberately remain unvaccinated for no valid medical reason).  I hope that you suffer in recovering from with COVID, but don't die.  You can serve as a reminder to your circle of like minded friends about the dangers of COVID.  However if I hope that, my daughter will be the one to help treat them.

As for the politicians who took pictures with the truckers I sincerely hope that they were vaccinated.  I guess in their mind it is fine to support people who deliberately disobey health regulations and  could potentially spread COVID to other people.  Unless of course, the protester takes daily COVID rapid tests, practices social distancing and wears a mask when applicable (sarcasm).  To these publicity seeking  politicians, what is your plan to return Canada to normal besides complaining that Federal and Provincial governments are doing enough or taking the wrong approach. Stop complaining and contribute to solve the problem.  What is your solution to resolving the protesters' demands?

I'm tired of the protest.
I'm tired of the opportunist politicians who takes advantage of people.
I'm tired of the Federal and Provincial governments who seeming can't find a long term fix to our health care system despite Royal Commissions and numerous other related studies.
and most of all I'm worried about my daughter who is exhausted and burnt out because she cares for her patients.

Sorry for the rant. I had to get that off my chest.


----------



## Quirky (1 Feb 2022)

Superspreader event or not, you can’t control it anymore. Assume everyone you come into contact with has it and move on with your life.


----------



## Altair (1 Feb 2022)

Superspreaders also don't tend to happen in well ventilated areas and you don't get much more well ventilated than outside.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2022)

Trudeau gov’t hits back at trucker protests by announcing plans for even harsher COVID mandates​








						Trudeau gov't hits back at trucker protests by announcing plans for even harsher COVID mandates - LifeSite
					

'[W]e actually campaigned on vaccines and vaccine mandates ... there is ongoing work' to integrate an interprovincial COVID inoculation requirement, Transport Minister Omar Alghabra said.




					www.lifesitenews.com
				




Tue Feb 1, 2022 - 1:51 pm EST
OTTAWA, Ontario (LifeSiteNews) — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government has pushed back against huge protests fighting expanding COVID jab mandates across the country, indicating that it will not only not back down on the restrictive measures, but will implement an additional inoculation requirement for truckers moving between provinces.
Canadian Transport Minister Omar Alghabra told _CBC_’s Rosemary Barton that an interprovincial COVID shot mandate is being considered by the government, citing the party’s election campaign promise of “vaccines and vaccine mandates” during the fall.

“In the last election we actually campaigned on vaccines and vaccine mandates. Minister [Seamus] O’Regan just last December announced that we are working on regulating all federally regulated sectors requiring [a] vaccine. So there is ongoing work,” Alghabra said in the interview.
“As of right now, that policy is not in place,” the minister continued, “but no one should be surprised that there is work happening to get us there.”
The announcement comes on the heels of Trudeau smearing the Freedom Convoy and its many thousands of supporters as “Nazis” and “racists” who are full of “intolerance and hate,” a message he delivered while in hiding outside of Ottawa during the weekend’s protest in the nation’s capital.
Trudeau also maligned the demonstrators as “violent.” However, numerous video testimonies from police on the ground in Ottawa, as well as extensive drone footage of the area, attest to the peaceable nature of the gathering. As things stand, no arrests or injuries have been reported at the protest convoy.
Indeed, protestors challenged a sole man who was carrying a Confederate flag amid the protest in an image used in the media to stoke allegations of racism — and suspected him of being an _agent provocateur_.

The man, whose face was completely covered, later left the scene after attention was drawn to him.

While truckers have been protesting the punishing quarantine requirement for remaining un-jabbed, the country is suffering a shortage of drivers as a result of the mandate, according to haulers.

Viva Frei
@thevivafrei
He doesn’t always act as an “agent provocateur”, but when he does, he brings a Confederate flag to a Canadian protest, and his own personal photographer. He is… The most obvious agent provocateur in the world!


So, from what I can see and read, there was one confederate flag and one nazi flag. Of which the protest had no idea who they were. According to the Viva Frei lawyer and b
vlogger, the guy shows up at all kinds of protests and there is a reward out, by the truckers, to identify the other flag carrier.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Superspreaders also don't tend to happen in well ventilated areas and you don't get much more well ventilated than outside.



That's good. Some indoor places in the vicintiy had to close.









						Ottawa's Rideau Centre mall to remain closed until Feb. 6 amid convoy protest
					

The CF Rideau Centre in Ottawa's downtown core will remain closed until Feb. 6, a statement from the mall says.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Trudeau gov't hits back at trucker protests by announcing plans for even harsher COVID mandates - LifeSite
> 
> 
> '[W]e actually campaigned on vaccines and vaccine mandates ... there is ongoing work' to integrate an interprovincial COVID inoculation requirement, Transport Minister Omar Alghabra said.
> ...



Lifesite News

Social Media Bans








						LifeSiteNews - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




( Original sources in "References" at bottom of page. )


----------



## Happy Guy (1 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Superspreaders also don't tend to happen in well ventilated areas and you don't get much more well ventilated than outside.


You're right.  Transmission of the COVID virus is through respiratory droplets and aerosols when an infected person breathes, coughs, sneezes, sings, shouts, or talks. Reports of outbreaks in settings with poor ventilation suggest that infectious aerosols were suspended in the air and that people inhaled the virus at distances beyond 2 metres.  Being outdoors or in a well ventilated place greatly reduces the chances of virus transmission.  Note you should also be at least 2 metres away from the person - social distancing.  From what I've seen many people were unmasked and less than two metres apart from each other.

Please note that there were places such as the Rideau Centre on Sat, 29 Jan where large numbers of the protesters did congregate together while unmasked.  I witnessed this myself on that day.  There were other smaller places in the Byward Market too where the protesters met to keep warm.  Some of protesters have rented hotel rooms and were reported as not wearing masks by the hotel staffs.

Hopefully there will be no large COVID outbreak in Ottawa due to this protest.


----------



## armrdsoul77 (1 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/terry-fox-statue-convoy-1.6333867


----------



## Altair (1 Feb 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> You're right.  Transmission of the COVID virus is through respiratory droplets and aerosols when an infected person breathes, coughs, sneezes, sings, shouts, or talks. Reports of outbreaks in settings with poor ventilation suggest that infectious aerosols were suspended in the air and that people inhaled the virus at distances beyond 2 metres.  Being outdoors or in a well ventilated place greatly reduces the chances of virus transmission.  Note you should also be at least 2 metres away from the person - social distancing.  From what I've seen many people were unmasked and less than two metres apart from each other.


You're right, but we have seen large protests, BLM protests, indigenous protests, environmental protests, political protests and others I'm sure I'm forgetting and they haven't lead to superspreader events, this being both pre vaccine and post vaccine. 

The threat of outdoor protests leading to superspreader events is overblown. 


Happy Guy said:


> Please note that there were places such as the Rideau Centre on Sat, 29 Jan where large numbers of the protesters did congregate together while unmasked.  I witnessed this myself on that day.  There were other smaller places in the Byward Market too where the protesters met to keep warm.  Some of protesters have rented hotel rooms and were reported as not wearing masks by the hotel staffs.


These indoor settings are more concerning, but I am well aware that if these people didn't have any qualms about gathering in public in Ottawa, they were likely doing it elsewhere anyways. 

And thankfully they will probably get Omicron which isn't all that bad.


Happy Guy said:


> Hopefully there will be no large COVID outbreak in Ottawa due to this protest.


They will likely be leaving Ottawa and if they do have covid they will be spreading it from Ottawa to where they are from, depending on when they leave


----------



## Kilted (1 Feb 2022)

Is there any estimate of how many people are left, compared to how many were there on the weekend?


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (1 Feb 2022)

A lot of people. By the weekend, expect a lot more people to join.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The threat of outdoor protests leading to superspreader events is overblown.



The New Year's Eve outdoor celebrations were interesting,









						Cities that are canceling their big New Year's Eve events -- and those still going forward
					

London is just one major city canceling its big New Year's Eve celebrations. Find out what other cities are canceling because of the pandemic -- and which ones are still on schedule.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Altair (1 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Nontheless,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People ditched science in the toilets a long time ago.

Case in point, how many places still have hand wash stations set up? How many jurisdictions still have cloth mask mandates despite science saying it doesn't do much at this point?









						COVID-19 rarely spreads through surfaces. So why are we still deep cleaning?
					

The coronavirus behind the pandemic can linger on doorknobs and other surfaces, but these aren’t a major source of infection.




					www.nature.com
				






> But Goldman, a microbiologist at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School in Newark, decided to take a closer look at the evidence around fomites. What he found was that there was little to support the idea that SARS-CoV-2 passes from one person to another through contaminated surfaces. He wrote a pointed commentary for _The_ _Lancet_ _Infectious Diseases_ in July, arguing that surfaces presented relatively little risk of transmitting the virus2. His conviction has only strengthened since then, and Goldman has long since abandoned the gloves.
> 
> Many others reached similar conclusions. In fact, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) clarified its guidance about surface transmission in May, stating that this route is “not thought to be the main way the virus spreads”. It now states that transmission through surfaces is “not thought to be a common way that COVID-19 spreads”.
> 
> As evidence has accumulated over the course of the pandemic, scientific understanding about the virus has changed. Studies and investigations of outbreaks all point to the majority of transmissions occurring as a result of infected people spewing out large droplets and small particles called aerosols when they cough, talk or breathe. These can be directly inhaled by people close by. Surface transmission, although possible, is not thought to be a significant risk.











						Most people are still wearing cloth masks. Here's why that's a problem with omicron
					

Omicron spreads more quickly and efficiently than other known COVID-19 variants, and that's why health experts recommend N95 masks, not cloth ones.



					www.usatoday.com
				






> Your cloth face mask isn't protecting you against the coronavirus variant omicron, health officials say.
> 
> As common as cloth face masks have become, health experts say, they do little to prevent tiny virus particles from getting into your nose or mouth and aren't effective against the new variant.
> 
> "Cloth masks are not going to cut it with omicron," says Linsey Marr, a researcher at Virginia Tech told NPR.



What individual jurisdictions do now is simply throw shit at a wall and see what sticks, not much is done according to science.

Which is why people are unsettled by people being in the most ventilated environment possible (outside) is still disconcerting. Anything to do with crowds freaks people out, and it shouldn't but it does, so politicians do stuff based on peoples emotions instead of science.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Anything to do with crowds freaks people out, and it shouldn't but it does, so politicians do stuff based on peoples emotions instead of science.



I didn't go to medical school, so I'm in not qualified to argue science with you.

Which is why I was careful not to say cities cancelling outdoor New Year's Eve celebrations last month were right or wrong.

I simply said, "interesting."

As far as Ottawa goes, good luck to them. Hopefully, you are right and it will not be a super-spreader.


----------



## Remius (1 Feb 2022)

I’m not hearing much concern for a superspreader.  The locals just want to be able to go outside without being harassed, disabled and elderly want to access their essential services, businesses who have been waiting to reopen just want to get back to it and overall everyone just wants these guys to leave. 

The message has been high jacked and lost.  When a protest becomes an occupation it’s time to be removed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Lifesite News
> 
> Social Media Bans
> 
> ...


So, what's your point. You just posted a CNN article. Why don't you stop the games.


----------



## Altair (1 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I didn't go to medical school, so I'm in not qualified to argue science with you.
> 
> Which is why I was careful not to say cities cancelling outdoor New Year's Eve celebrations last month were right or wrong.
> 
> ...



Which is why I was careful to not say what you said or what you posted was right or wrong.

Simply that cities/politicians have given up on staying up to date on the science of covid quite a while ago.


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Why don't you stop the games.



I had not heard of Life Site News, so I looked it up. I was curious about their social media bans.



mariomike said:


> Lifesite News
> 
> Social Media Bans
> 
> ...


----------



## QV (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Kenney calls trucker blockade at U.S. border 'unlawful,' RCMP taking action
> 
> 
> RCMP are moving in on a blockade of truckers and others protesting COVID-19 measures at Alberta's southern border crossing. Commercial trucks, vehicles and camper vans have been blocking the highway at the U.S.-Canada border in Coutts, Alta. since Saturday to protest COVID-19 restrictions.
> ...


How are they making out?


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Feb 2022)

Should be easy enough to verify approximately how many Confederate and Nazi flags were there, whether the people carrying them were confronted, and whether they left when confronted.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I had not heard of Life Site News, so I looked it up. I was curious about their social media


Go blow smoke up someone else's butt.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Go blow smoke up someone else's butt.



Social media bans​_LifeSiteNews_' Twitter accounts have been temporarily suspended at least four times since 2018; once in error, twice for violating rules against "targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals", and once for violating rules against spreading COVID-19 misinformation.[8][25][26]

_LifeSiteNews_' YouTube channel was banned in February 2021 for persistently promoting COVID-19 misinformation. One video claimed that COVID-19 was "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public". Another promoted anti-vaccine sentiment, cast doubt on the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, and stated that COVID-19 "isn't really killing people right and left that weren't probably gonna die within the year anyway". These claims contradicted the scientific consensus and reports from authorities like the World Health Organization, and violated YouTube policies on promotion of health misinformation.[27]

_LifeSiteNews_ was permanently banned from Facebook in May 2021 for violations of policies prohibiting COVID-19 misinformation.[11][28] According to _LifeSiteNews_, Facebook said the ban was related to their policy of removing anti-vaccination accounts, and a Facebook spokesperson allegedly accused LifeSiteNews of disseminating "false information about COVID-19 that could contribute to physical harm".[11] A joint statement signed by Media Matters for America, GLAAD, the Human Rights Campaign, and NARAL Pro-Choice America said they had collected and reported to Facebook over 100 posts by _LifeSiteNews_ that allegedly spread COVID-19 and vaccine-related misinformation. They added that they believed Facebook should have banned the group "years ago" for using the platform to "push its noxious anti-LGBTQ and anti-choice extremism".[29][30][31]

References:








						LifeSiteNews - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



​


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (2 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> How are they making out?


RCMP backed off.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488629071948877824
Alberta Premier may be going full in tomorrow to get truckers out of there. Today, RCMP calls for support to tow truck companies was not good. Most said they had COVID. Truckers are not going to eat their own. This can get nasty if the RCMP go and arrest people. Border blockade is more ballsy than the Ottawa sit in.

God Bless Our Truckers.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1245139169934016517


----------



## MilEME09 (2 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> RCMP backed off.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488629071948877824
> Alberta Premier may be going full in tomorrow to get truckers out of there. Today, RCMP calls for support to tow truck companies was not good. Most said they had COVID. Truckers are not going to eat their own. This can get nasty if the RCMP go and arrest people. Border blockade is more ballsy than the Ottawa sit in.
> ...


Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.


----------



## FJAG (2 Feb 2022)




----------



## CBH99 (2 Feb 2022)

Misses muffett said:


> Darwins dead


The only person I actually know named Darwin is a crown prosecutor here in Alberta.  

And boy does he ever live up to his name…


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

Some funny shit. Its an opinion piece but I can only hope it's true









						Liar.com redirects to Justin Trudeau’s Wikipedia page—who owns it and why is it Elon Musk?
					

Elon Musk has been a vocal supporter of the truckers’ convoy in Canada, voicing his support for the movement numerous times on social media.




					thepostmillennial.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Social media bans​_LifeSiteNews_' Twitter accounts have been temporarily suspended at least four times since 2018; once in error, twice for violating rules against "targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals", and once for violating rules against spreading COVID-19 misinformation.[8][25][26]
> 
> _LifeSiteNews_' YouTube channel was banned in February 2021 for persistently promoting COVID-19 misinformation. One video claimed that COVID-19 was "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public". Another promoted anti-vaccine sentiment, cast doubt on the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines, and stated that COVID-19 "isn't really killing people right and left that weren't probably gonna die within the year anyway". These claims contradicted the scientific consensus and reports from authorities like the World Health Organization, and violated YouTube policies on promotion of health misinformation.[27]
> 
> ...


And?
Better people and publications than them have been banned off of leftist social media platforms. Being banned off of those has become fodder for daily water cooler jokes. It's so common to be banned for speaking truth or expressing an opinion that the left doesn't like that it has almost become a badge of honour. The reasons they were banned are the same reasons lots of people with an open mind, curiosity and an opinion gets banned. Thousands of people are banned because people like Zuckerburg or Twitter have agendas and those comments are damaging to their agendas.

How about trying to read the content some time instead of seeing how many links you can find to throw shade on it.

And Epstein didn't  kill himself.😉


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.


The beauty of all this is that it becomes Kenney vs the truckers now.  A really Good look. And Kenney will have to ask the feds for back up.  I’m sure that will bother him somewhat lol.


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Trudeau gov’t hits back at trucker protests by announcing plans for even harsher COVID mandates​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There were more swastikas reported. Some captured as being made a part of the Canadian flag.

There have been additional hate crimes reported, and also OPS is investigating incidents of harassment and intimidation.

The protests interrupted a woman's final moments with her mother. Para Transpo has reported issues assisting the handicapped move around Ottawa. A homeless person was assaulted and a soup kitchen stolen from. 

I guess it's all those agent provocateurs.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/downtown-ottawa-street-residents-take-stance-block-truck-1.6335139


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Feb 2022)

So like I said, crime was way down....


----------



## Quirky (2 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.


It’s PER season, most of the CAF is unavailable.


----------



## Drallib (2 Feb 2022)

More disgusting protesters in Ottawa (sarcasm)

I think everyone will agree that certain actions are unacceptable and it's a shame that these things take place.

When you have a group who is more on the right, you're going to have those on the left find anything at all to pin against them. Ottawa, from what I understand, is a Liberal city (as most cities or dense populated areas are), so of course people are annoyed or upset about the protest.

Personally it's been moving to see so many people across the country support these truckers as they drove across the nation, standing outside waving the Canada flag in support (I personally don't agree with the F--- Trudeau flags. I think we should be praying for our leaders, not slandering them). At first I didn't like seeing the upside down Canada flag, as I thought it was disrespectful, but someone mentioned that it represents a country in distress, which I can understand. I still wouldn't do it myself... but I understand.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Feb 2022)

Drallib said:


> More disgusting protesters in Ottawa
> 
> 💁‍♀️


Then individual reports of Nazi & Confederate flags are to be believed, too?   😉 

To be fair, the rule that tends to apply to the actions of an idiotic few in a large crowd of folks is "one holy f**k cancels out a thousand atta-boy's", so organizers of _any_ group should keep that in mind.


Scott said:


> ... A homeless person was assaulted and a soup kitchen stolen from ...


A donation from the protest organizers to the soup kitchen in question could go a long way towards improving good will & optics, no?


----------



## Haggis (2 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> A donation from the protest organizers to the soup kitchen in question could go a long way towards improving good will & optics, no?
> View attachment 68435


No.  Too little too late.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> No.  Too little too late.


What if they added tears and an apology?


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> A donation from the protest organizers to the soup kitchen in question could go a long way towards improving good will & optics, no?



That's what Al Capone did. 









						Mobster Al Capone Ran a Soup Kitchen During the Great Depression
					

America’s most notorious gangster sponsored the charity that served up three hot meals a day to thousands of people in need—no questions asked.




					www.history.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.



Railway blockades in 2020 lasted for 3 months. How is this one different? 
I'm not really up to speed on what's going on in Albertas protest.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> There were more swastikas reported. Some captured as being made a part of the Canadian flag.





> Offered for sale at the Freedom Convoy protest today: Mask exemption badges and yellow Stars of David.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488594662130696202


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

If that’s in a public space, then also show the face(s) of those selling these, and McGregor can post them on the CTV site or do a media investigation on them selling these.


----------



## Haggis (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> What if they added tears and an apology?


If they were properly coached by, say, a former drama teacher, it may work.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If that’s in a public space, then also show the face(s) of those selling these, and McGregor can post them on the CTV site or do a media investigation on them selling these.



If paramedics are getting bricks thrown at them,

Doors locked. Windows UP. FIDO

and "subjected to anti-Asian racial slurs"


> adding that one of their paramedics had also been subjected to anti-Asian racial slurs during the same incident as he checked on the status of the vehicle.



how much "Freedom of the Press" is there to "do a media investigation" ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488777140170596357


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Feb 2022)

If that is the height of oppression for 'freedom of the press" then we have the freakin' luckiest press corps in the world.

A sad post really...


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> If that is the height of oppression for 'freedom of the press" then we have the freakin' luckiest press corps in the world.
> 
> A sad post really...



Good luck "do(ing) a media investigation on them selling these."


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

Is not a single reporter going to investigate in detail any of the Nazi flag /confederate flag carriers / button sellers???


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Is not a single reporter going to investigate in detail any of the Nazi flag /confederate flag carriers / button sellers???



Paramedics don't even go in there without a police escort.

What security do reporters have?


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> No.  Too little too late.


Sooner WOULD have been better ....


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

I think it's real shitty when it's suggested one must accept being harassed as a part of their job.

Pretty sure it's not even legal.

Of course reporters understand that ever since there were reporters that there would also be people telling them off. But I think we are seeing those lines crossed. Nobody deserves being made to feel unsafe. Nobody deserves having things thrown at them.


----------



## OceanBonfire (2 Feb 2022)

Listed terrorist entity flag on a truck:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488168403575742470


----------



## Furniture (2 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.


That's what the CAF needs, another thing to blow up in our faces while recruiting is down, and morale is low. 

How long do you think it would take for the PM to throw the CAF under the bus if anything went wrong?


----------



## blacktriangle (2 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> That's what the CAF needs, another thing to blow up in our faces while recruiting is down, and morale is low.
> 
> How long do you think it would take for the PM to throw the CAF under the bus if anything went wrong?


Under the bus, or under the truck?


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Listed terrorist entity flag on a truck:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488168403575742470



Relax, bub, it's just one...


----------



## dimsum (2 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.


lol the "support our troops" anti-mandate folks would be sweating like the meme:




Also, apparently they're looking at sending a convoy this wkd to downtown TO.  I'm sure it'll go _great_.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Relax, bub, it's just one...


... and it could be a false flag/provocateur, right?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Feb 2022)

Or just a sad misbegotten idiot who craves any kind of attention no matter what.......we have all seen the commercials for The Bachelor , haven't we?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> ... and it could be a false flag/provocateur, right?


Odds are


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Feb 2022)

I have a Nazi flag upstairs folded in a drawer where it's been for over 75 years.   Dad brought it back with him in 1946 as part of his swag.  When i was young, lonely, and stupid I probably would have hung it just to be "a rebel without a clue".

Thank frig my Father already had the wisdom that I've now acquired as to that flags place. Maybe one day this guy looks at that picture and punches himself in the stomach.....


----------



## blacktriangle (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Is not a single reporter going to investigate in detail any of the Nazi flag /confederate flag carriers / button sellers???


It would certainly be in the public interest for them to do so, regardless of where attribution may lead...


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.



If the civi tow trucks are under police contract, they might - or might not - reconsider. If that is how police towing contracts work?  🤷‍♂️

Would the police allow a vehicle to be towed with the driver still in it?

And, if there is no driver in it - for whatever reason - could it just be driven away by anyone ( authorized by police ) with an AZ licence?

In fact, I don't believe police themselves require a specific licence ( only familiar with Highway Traffic Act of Ontario ) to operate any vehicle under exceptional circumstances. Might strip a few gears in the process - although, from what I understand, many trucks now are automatic.


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> What if they added tears and an apology?


If the tears come from pepper spray and CS gas, then mayyyyyybe.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Feb 2022)

I have no sympathy for Ottawa or reporters.  Just as I chose to be in the CAF they chose their path.  

Democracy is messy and it's refreshing to see Canadians get passionate about the direction of the country again.  Right or wrong.

Wanna fix this, it's called electoral reform in the way of redistribution of seat so no one province or region can dictate to the rest of the country.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Paramedics don't even go in there without a police escort.
> 
> What security do reporters have?


Ummmm….they seem to go as far as…you know…a war zone.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Ummmm….they seem to go as far as…you know…a war zone.



The reporter in your picture looks more relaxed with the folks being interviewed than the ones at the "Freedom" thing.


----------



## Haggis (2 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Wanna fix this, it's called electoral reform in the way of redistribution of seat so no one province or region can dictate to the rest of the country.


Electoral reform was tossed into the "too hard" pile of election promises after analysis showed it could lead to a Liberal loss in a subsequent election.


----------



## lenaitch (2 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> lol the "support our troops" anti-mandate folks would be sweating like the meme:
> 
> View attachment 68437
> 
> ...


Interesting.  One wonders if they have sought permission from the private property owners to use their space.

Best as I can tell, 'Phat Farm Car Meets' is an 'auto enthusiasts' club, somehow spun of a line of hip hop style clothing.


----------



## dimsum (2 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Interesting. One wonders if they have sought permission from the private property owners to use their space.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

> One wonders if they have sought permission from the private property owners to use their space.



I expect Scarborough Town Centre, Yorkdale, Sherway, Square One, will be "mask free" visits like the Rideau Centre in Ottawa - before it was locked down.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Ummmm…. do you consider the Freedom Convoy …you know…a war zone?


Really?  That was your takeaway?

No…quite the opposite. 

I was noting how far reporters have gone in the past for a story…of course with appropriate security measure in place.

Here in Ottawa, it appears that the media seems to have self-limited its coverage of the Nazi/Confederate flag(s?) to stand-off reporting.  I stand to be corrected, but I have seen no media investigation or even direct contact with the Nazi/Confederate types.  For the star-of-David buttons that CTV reporter Glen McGregor tweeted that you posted earlier, I saw no follow-up as to the identity of, or story behind who was offering those buttons for sale.  How about a follow-up on the parked truck with the 3% flag on the hood…show the plate…wait and interview the driver.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Electoral reform was tossed into the "too hard" pile of election promises after analysis showed it could lead to a Liberal loss in a subsequent election.



I'm well aware.  That doesn't change the fact millions of Canadians are disenfranchised with our electoral process because is doesn't equally reflect the whole country. 

Not fixing this will be detrimental to our future.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Really?  That was your takeaway?
> 
> No…quite the opposite.
> 
> ...



He's never been to a war zone.  Cut him some slack.  Personal reality is shaped by personal experience.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The reporter in your picture looks more relaxed with the folks being interviewed than the ones at the "Freedom" thing.


So Trudeau should follow in his father’s footsteps, you figure, what with downtown Ottawa being more dangerous than a war zone now?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Really?  That was your takeaway?
> 
> No…quite the opposite.
> 
> ...


That would involve real journalism 🤣

This is what real conflict journalism looks like:









						POPULAR FRONT | Linktree
					

Links to all Popular Front media




					linktr.ee


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> That would involve real journalism 🤣
> 
> This is what real conflict journalism looks like:
> 
> ...


Hell, even Rolling Stone got it right:








						The Killer Elite
					

Meet the Marines of Bravo Company – proud, hardened professionals who deal in that most specialized of American exports: ultraviolence. The true story of bullets, bombs and a Marine platoon a…




					www.rollingstone.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

And every complaint about a couple of flags and buttons is a distraction for trudeau to hide behind. I can smell his desperation all the way down here at the border.

 “We are not intimidated by those who hurl insults and abuse at small business workers and steal food from the homeless. We won't give in to those who fly racist flags. We won't cave to those who engage in vandalism or dishonor the memory of our veterans.” (says Mr Asking for more than we can give)

“Today in the House, Members of Parliament unanimously condemned the antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti-Black racism, homophobia, and transphobia that we’ve seen on display in Ottawa over the past number of days. Together, let’s keep working to make Canada more inclusive.”
(did he miss anyone? Those that identify as dogs or cats, plants or Bic pens?)

The world unlocks and moves to an endemic, but trudeau doubles down and is planning on restricting our movement, even across provincial boundries. Wait til he finds out Pfizer wants to vax babies. Heck, he acts like he gets a commission on every jab Canadians receive.

He will meet with BLM protesters with their Marxist, violent agendas because he agrees with them, but not those that he disagrees with. Not the actions of even a mediocre leader that wants everyone to get along or is concerned about the citizens he was put in charge of to lead. There's lots more misplaced condemnation and angst from his nibs as he stokes division and hate, but I don't want to give his lies and reverse racism a larger platform than hypocritical Mr Blackface already has available.

It is also not far from impossible that those flags, etc were purposely placed in there to give him something to build his false narrative around. I don't think there are many (any?) measures they find off limits to their incorrigible party to attain their goals, including their own Ray Epps type characters.


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> And every complaint about a couple of flags and buttons is a distraction for trudeau to hide behind. I can smell his desperation all the way down here at the border.
> 
> “We are not intimidated by those who hurl insults and abuse at small business workers and steal food from the homeless. We won't give in to those who fly racist flags. We won't cave to those who engage in vandalism or dishonor the memory of our veterans.” (says Mr Asking for more than we can give)
> 
> ...


nazi confederate anti vaccers do make for good boogeymen.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Halifax Tar said:
> 
> 
> > He's never been to a war zone.



I was in the PRes. Furtherest I got was Fort Drum New York.

I also had a full-time job,



> 24.09 (a) Leave of absence shall be granted to employees to serve in the Armed Forces during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada. Seniority will accumulate during such leave.



That hasn't happened since World War Two.

Edit: To correct a mis-quote.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Really?  That was your takeaway?
> 
> No…quite the opposite.
> 
> ...


The Winnipeg Free Press has chosen to vilify the convoy, along with any politician who decided to support it. One of our local MLAs has some not very complimentary words for a local MP. Freedom of expression in Canada exists only if you agree with the anti colonial, anti convoy, woke crowd. If you express any other view your racist etc. Some of the most racist people I've met were not Caucasian.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Feb 2022)

> Nothing a couple wreckers can't take care of, if civi tow trucks won't do it, time to grab the wreckers from Suffield, Edmonton and Wainwright, head down and clear a path.



Nothing looks better than military people cleaning up a protest.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> He's never been to a war zone.  Cut him some slack.  Personal reality is shaped by personal experience.


Perhaps because Toronto is often described by the press as a 'war zone' every time a gangbanger uses an illegal, smuggled gun?


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Here in Ottawa, it appears that the media seems to have self-limited its coverage of the Nazi/Confederate flag(s?) to stand-off reporting.  I stand to be corrected, but I have seen no media investigation or even direct contact with the Nazi/Confederate types.  For the star-of-David buttons that CTV reporter Glen McGregor tweeted that you posted earlier, I saw no follow-up as to the identity of, or story behind who was offering those buttons for sale.  How about a follow-up on the parked truck with the 3% flag on the hood…show the plate…wait and interview the driver.


 
Update of my earlier statement:

So I now count one journalist, Candice Malcolm, Editor-in-Chief of True North, trying to identify Nazi guy.  

How about it, MSM?  CBC? RadioCanada? CTV? Global?  TV4? Etc…


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The Winnipeg Free Press has chosen to vilify the convoy, along with any politician who decided to support it. One of our local MLAs has some not very complimentary words for a local MP. Freedom of expression in Canada exists only if you agree with the anti colonial, anti convoy, woke crowd. If you express any other view your racist etc. Some of the most racist people I've met were not Caucasian.


You mean anti Anglo Caucasian male people?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Update of my earlier statement:
> 
> So I now count one journalist, Candice Malcolm, Editor-in-Chief of True North, trying to identify Nazi guy.
> 
> How about it, MSM?  CBC? RadioCanada? CTV? Global?  TV4? Etc…


The convoy has placed a $6,500 reward for the nazi flag persons identity.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You mean anti Anglo Caucasian male people?


No women are included now.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I was in the PRes. Furtherest I got was Fort Drum New York.
> 
> I also had a full-time job,
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is condemning you for it. No need to try justify it.

'Those who stand ready also served'


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I don't think anyone is condemning you for it. No need to try justify it.
> 
> 'Those who stand ready also served'



Thank-you. Even my kid sister saw more of the world ( in uniform )  than I did.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Ummmm….they seem to go as far as…you know…a war zone.
> View attachment 68439


To be fair, they're _(usually)_ there under the protection of those they're with & covering (esp. embeds, but generally the case with authorized "drop in's" too) - could the convoy organizers guarantee the same?  That said ...


Good2Golf said:


> ... How about a follow-up on the parked truck with the 3% flag on the hood…show the plate…wait and interview the driver.


If the truck's still around, 1000% agree.


Fishbone Jones said:


> The media outlet reporting on/investigating the appearance has placed a $6,500 reward for the nazi flag persons identity.


FTFY - more from the True North Centre on what they've found so far on the person(s?) in question.


----------



## Haggis (2 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm well aware.  That doesn't change the fact millions of Canadians are disenfranchised with our electoral process because is doesn't equally reflect the whole country.
> 
> Not fixing this will be detrimental to our future.


Since when has "our" future mattered to the Liberal Party when compared to "their" future chances of getting re-elected?


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

You mis-quoted me.  I did not say that.

The link points to my Trudeau ‘just watch me’ post.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> He's never been to a war zone.





Good2Golf said:


> You mis-quoted me.  I did not say that.
> 
> The link points to my war-correspondent post.



A technical error on my part. I was quoting another poster. Sorry G2G.

I corrected the original post.



Halifax Tar said:


> He's never been to a war zone.





Halifax Tar said:


> He's never been to a war zone.


----------



## blacktriangle (2 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> If the truck's still around, 1000% agree.


Journalists could always send a friendly inquiry to Fogz Logistics (dispatch e-mail is on their site) regarding all vehicles 77* and potentially pivot from there.


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You mean anti Anglo Caucasian male people?


White fragility?


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> White fragility?


There's literal truckloads of it rollin rollin rollin around.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> FTFY - more from the True North Centre on what they've found so far on the person(s?) in question.


Thanks, I was going off all the stuff I remember reading yesterday. Maybe I remembered seeing it on a pro convoy site, hence my confusion. That and I'm pushing 70 and sometime the synapses decide to have a mad minute.😉 It all gets jumbled together after awhile.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Thanks, I was going off all the stuff I remember reading yesterday. Maybe I remembered seeing it on a pro convoy site, hence my confusion. That and I'm pushing 70 and sometime the synapses decide to have a mad minute.😉 It all gets jumbled together after awhile.


There's a lot out there to get jumbled on this, so you're not alone.


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

I was happy to see Candice Malcolm take a swing at this. I know Evan Balgord contributed to a fund to find this person, just not sure if it's a part of the same effort. I actually hope that it is.


----------



## Mills Bomb (2 Feb 2022)

Thankfully this thing is finally dying down a bit. An apology to anyone who read my lack-of-sleep on the ground early reports of this thing for any aggression, a bit hard not to be unbiased with constant TRAIN horns blasting that they mounted on some of these trucks. I'm not at all surprised by all the negative coverage as it is consistent with what I personally saw on the ground.

On that note, it appears this "protest" just finished off O'Toole;









						O'Toole resigns as Conservative leader, will stay on as MP
					

Erin O'Toole has resigned as the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada but will stay on to serve as the Durham, Ont. member of Parliament. The majority of caucus voted to remove O'Toole in a secret ballot on Wednesday. In a decisive revolt, 118 votes were cast at the virtual morning...




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




This comes as no surprise to me personally. I had a feeling as soon as the protest started that he had made a very big mistake.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

Maybe Bruce MacKinnon can update his editorial cartoon to show the bus having crashed into the ditch and on fire?


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> constant TRAIN horns blasting that they mounted on some of these trucks.



Looks like a few inserted pylon cones, presumably to amplify a bit.

At least no Jake brakes.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Looks like a few inserted pylon cones, presumably to amplify a bit.


No, they’re train horns all right. It’s a thing, usually on pick-me-up trucks on 35” mudders.

The Nathan K5LA seems to be a favourite.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> nazi confederate anti vaccers do make for good boogeymen.


The majority of anti vaxxers are racist, misogynists and anti science after all.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The convoy has placed a $6,500 reward for the nazi flag persons identity.


It would be nice if Nazis and not just named sub-groups were placed on Canada's terrorist list.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The majority of anti vaxxers are racist, misogynists and anti science after all.


Of course they are because our version of the Dear Leader said so....

Must... not... drink... the.... Flavor Aid.......


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Feb 2022)

Mileage on your outrage bus may vary.


----------



## PMedMoe (2 Feb 2022)

Looks like a few charges have been made.

Police said today they charged a 48-year-old man from Quebec with uttering threats and counselling to commit an indictable offence. The charges relate to threats and comments made on social media while in Ottawa, police said.

Andre Lacasse, 37, was charged on Sunday with carrying a weapon to a public meeting, while Matthew Dorken, 29, was charged Tuesday with mischief under $5,000.


----------



## RangerRay (2 Feb 2022)

And in the “Be Careful What You Read on the Internet” File…









						Republican Congressman Falls for Ridiculous Conspiracy That Trudeau Has Fled to America
					

Chip Roy seems to genuinely believe Canada’s PM has fled from anti-vax protests in his country.



					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488974731734835206
Haven’t seen anything yet but should be interesting…


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Ottawa police, city lawyers considering court order to end convoy protests
					

Ottawa police and city lawyers are discussing applying for a court injunction as means of ending the ongoing trucker convoy protest, with Ottawa Police Service Chief Peter Sloly saying Wednesday that the situation is 'intolerable' and 'unprecedented.'




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Looks like the real shyte disturbers are the ones that are there at this time.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Feb 2022)

If he's trolling for "aid to the civil power" over this, I hope someone slaps him into sensibility.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The reporter in your picture looks more relaxed with the folks being interviewed than the ones at the "Freedom" thing.


Looks like it might be these guys. Home | Institute for Nonprofit News

Considering the intestinal fortitude of some journalists here, it's  understandable.









						Globe and Mail reporter says she’s ‘triggered’ by the sight of the Canadian flag
					

“I had the weird sensation of being triggered by the sight of Canadian flags. It was just awful.”




					thepostmillennial.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488974731734835206
> Haven’t seen anything yet but should be interesting…


----------



## Kilted (2 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


>


If I  remember correctly unless Ottawa has a special status like Toronto, it would have to be Ontario that requested it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The majority of anti vaxxers are racist, misogynists and anti science after all.


You left out a few. Homophobic, transphobic, right wing extremists....


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> If I  remember correctly unless Ottawa has a special status like Toronto, it would have to be Ontario that requested it.


I doubt it even comes close.  Canada is not normally known for using its troops against its population.

But being able to fight Nazi Confederates in this day an age has an interesting appeal.


----------



## Kilted (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I doubt it even comes close.  Canada is not normally known for using its troops against its population.
> 
> But being able to fight Nazi Confederates in this day an age has an interesting appeal.


Yeah, but I get the feeling that all the woke folks don't really care about these people unless they are given an opportunity to bash the police or military.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488974731734835206
> Haven’t seen anything yet but should be interesting…



I expected the calls for violence to take a little longer. 

This is one of my favs



> It’s basically a foreign occupation and we actually have to think before using the army?



Thinking before using the army against your own citizens? Lame.


----------



## Spencer100 (2 Feb 2022)

Who's foreign?  The truckers? or just anyone who doesn't think like a Liberal?

Sure bring out the army.  It will be interesting to watch that.  I don't think there will much support for that. But I could be wrong.


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I expected the calls for violence to take a little longer.
> 
> This is one of my favs
> 
> ...


Watching then press conference now.  OPS  chief looks like he wants the military.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I doubt it even comes close.  Canada is not normally known for using its troops against its population.
> 
> But being able to fight Nazi Confederates in this day an age has an interesting appeal.


"Soldiers, in the streets, with guns".😄


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Who's foreign?  The truckers? or just anyone who doesn't think like a Liberal?
> 
> Sure bring out the army.  It will be interesting to watch that.  I don't think there will much support for that. But I could be wrong.


Not sure.  Claims that money and even a lot or some of the truckers that remain might be American.  American truckers said to be on their way.   Just what I’m watching at a press conference right Jon’s.


----------



## Spencer100 (2 Feb 2022)

Sure Trudeau do a "just watch me". I don't think I would be going to far by saying that could blow the confederation apart.  But on the other hand Canadians are a slow to move bunch so it could work.  

Hey if given the order to remove by force........hmmm....


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Watching then press conference now.  OPS  chief looks like he wants the military.


I wonder what for.



			
				Peter Sloly said:
			
		

> But Sloly said Monday that things could be much worse.
> “It could have led to significant and severe injuries, and it could have led to the loss of life,” he said. “None of that has occurred over the last four days.
> “*No riots, no injuries, no deaths.* That is a measure of success for any jurisdiction in Canada, and quite frankly anywhere in the world.”


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

More from the press conference.  

SQ and OPS are looking to have the person who danced on the tomb to turn themselves in or be identified,  active investigation into that person’s activities that day.

Firearms being brought in by demonstrators 

Blockades to prevent more trucks coming in.

Enforcement escalating and three arrested plus 25 other investigations

100 trucks and remaining protesters are getting more “volatile”

Police intel have identified funding from the US

Possible counter protesters coming


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2022)

So, serious question. If trudeau and the liberals think confederate and nazi flags are the end of our civilization, why doesn’t he ban them? I'm sure they'd get plenty of support. It's not like he's incapable of curtailing or diminishing our Rights and Freedoms anyway. Free expression is trampled all the time.

Unless of course, maybe it's too good a symbol for trudeau to use in his messaging to make anyone right of his twisted ideologies, a racist, anti Semitic, islamophobic, BLM hating, homophobic, transphobic extremist (did I miss any?)

Or his ability to try attach them to conservatives.

He's such a hypocrite


----------



## Remius (2 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I wonder what for.


No clue how or what he means.


----------



## blacktriangle (2 Feb 2022)

Why the military? Don't we have police public order units...


----------



## Spencer100 (2 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Why the military? Don't we have police public order units...


Well being serious, If private tow operators will not supply services. The only other organization at their command would be the army. They are the only government org equipped to move trucks.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Watching then press conference now.  OPS  chief looks like he wants the military.



Maybe Ontario needs a new OPS Chief instead


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

A close friend of mine drives for OC transpo. He said they've been discussing joining and getting involved with the protest. I doubt they would use their work buses but it sounds like their management has been pretty shitty to them over the covid experience and they want to be heard. 

He also mentioned they've heard rumors of trades and farmers getting involved.


----------



## Rd651 (2 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> It’s PER season, most of the CAF is unavailable.


Haha, so true!!! LOL


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Feb 2022)

Makes sense 


Convoy protesters hope to garner national sympathy by terrorizing locals​
OTTAWA – Freedom Convoy organizers say they are asking the citizens of Ottawa to be a little more understanding towards their tactics in bullying, law-breaking, and psychological warfare as they hope to garner more national sympathy.

Leaders carefully explained the subtle nuances on why their rights and freedoms require them to hold the city hostage.

“We know that citizens of Ottawa have families and young kids like we do,” said one of the leaders blaring his truck horn. “The sleep deprivation of locals will surely convince the nation of our position.”









						Convoy protesters hope to garner national sympathy by terrorizing locals
					

OTTAWA - Freedom Convoy organizers say they are asking the citizens of Ottawa to be a little more understanding towards their tactics in bullying, law-breaking, and psychological warfare as they hope to garner more national sympathy.




					thebeaverton.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> It’s PER season, most of the CAF is unavailable.


I'm going to take a tactical pause here and blow everyone's mind.

Leaders in the CAF reviewing PERs can actually save time, energy, and effort correcting spelling mistakes themselves and typing reworded sentences how they think it should be worded.


----------



## blacktriangle (2 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> So, serious question. If trudeau and the liberals think confederate and nazi flags are the end of our civilization, why doesn’t he ban them? I'm sure they'd get plenty of support.


Great point. Not sure why these symbols of hate aren't already banned.


----------



## Kilted (2 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> A close friend of mine drives for OC transpo. He said they've been discussing joining and getting involved with the protest. I doubt they would use their work buses but it sounds like their management has been pretty shitty to them over the covid experience and they want to be heard.
> 
> He also mentioned they've heard rumors of trades and farmers getting involved.


I'm starting to get the feeling that the longer they wait, the harder it is going to be to end this.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm going to take a tactical pause here and blow everyone's mind.
> 
> Leaders in the CAF reviewing PERs can actually save time, energy, and effort correcting spelling mistakes themselves and typing reworded sentences how they think it should be worded.


----------



## Quirky (2 Feb 2022)

If you correct mistakes that your subs make, how will they ever learn?! I much prefer the current status quo of endless folders being passed around weeks on end.


----------



## PuckChaser (2 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Great point. Not sure why these symbols of hate aren't already banned.


Because everytime we've banned stuff, the opposite happens. Drugs, gun violence.... The bigger problem is the Left has weapons weaponized being a Nazi as anyone who they don't like. A Toronto Maple Leafs logo could also end up as a hate symbol in some parts of the country, slippery slope.

We have freedom of expression here, if you want to wave a Nazi or Hamas flag, go for it. Makes it easier for me to see who the douchebags are and rest assured most other folks are going to freely express that same sentiment to the Nazi/terrorist idiot.


----------



## dimsum (2 Feb 2022)

MPP Randy Hillier never fails to stick foot in mouth:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488994525469106182


----------



## brihard (2 Feb 2022)

EDIT: Never mind, politics subforum rules apply…


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2022)

The situation in Ottawa is so strained they are sending paramedic units from Toronto.









						'Absolutely not sustainable': Stretched Ottawa paramedics are at the limit, says president
					

Some paramedics have reported difficulty commuting to work as the "Freedom Convoy" protest continues in Ottawa. Those who live downtown say they have problems…




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The situation in Ottawa is so strained they are sending paramedic units from Toronto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another party??


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (2 Feb 2022)

Huge update at border: https://twitter.com/buperac
Live stream as well:


----------



## blacktriangle (2 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> The bigger problem is the Left has weapons weaponized being a Nazi as anyone who they don't like.



Yeah, you're right. And sadly many Canadians seem to accept these delusions as reality. Thank you public education system.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Go fund me frozen again apparently.


----------



## lenaitch (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> MPP Randy Hillier never fails to stick foot in mouth:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488994525469106182
> View attachment 68456


Gas cans, warheads, hashtag Make Ready.  Randy seems to be dancing pretty close to a line.

Quite frankly, push come to shove I think he's a coward.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Feb 2022)

Enjoying the sudden flip in the country's tone from "we need to be tolerant and work it out" to "why aren't those rednecks in jail already"?


----------



## Eaglelord17 (3 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Great point. Not sure why these symbols of hate aren't already banned.


You make great points, we should ban any symbol someone could possibly consider a symbol of hate. That would include the symbols of the USSR, Communism, Communist China, The Union Jack, The Canadian Flag, Conservative party logo, Liberal party logo, NDP logo, etc.

It isn't the business of the government as to what symbols people choose or choose not to own. I fear the day that the government decides it knows better than its citizens and decides to try and take away their ability to think and express themselves.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

This seems to be growing and getting away from the Gov.  Perhaps support for this is wider than the MM our political talking heads would have us believe.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Trucker convoy GoFundMe suspended after reaching $10.1 million
					

GoFundMe has suspended a fundraiser for the 'Freedom Convoy' of truckers and supporters who have tied up downtown Ottawa while protesting vaccine mandates.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Trucker convoy GoFundMe suspended after reaching $10.1 million
> 
> 
> GoFundMe has suspended a fundraiser for the 'Freedom Convoy' of truckers and supporters who have tied up downtown Ottawa while protesting vaccine mandates.
> ...



The establishment has to do something I think they are losing battle here.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The situation in Ottawa is so strained they are sending paramedic units from Toronto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So strained?  From just the convoy? 🤔 

It appears the problem existed well before the convoy came to town…


> “*We don’t have enough paramedics on a normal day*,” said Peter Bleyer, the executive director of the Civic Institute of Professional Personnel (CIPP) the union that represents about 3,000 municipal professionals in the Ottawa region including paramedics at the superintendent level.



Strange we didn’t hear much about the additional paid duty police from Toronto and York Region?  We’ll actually not, it happens as a matter of course wherever there’s a large gather…like…big student parties at a university…where extra paid duty officers are brought in from other parts of the province.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The establishment has to do something I think they are losing battle here.


People want them gone so pressure is mounting to have whoever do something.

The big difference between this and your typical protest is that this convoy has heavy machinery.  Something local law enforcement is I’ll equipped to deal with with those numbers.

Remaining protesters also seem more volatile and likely prone to violence if pushed.  Someone with a gun has already been arrested.  There could be more.  

The PR war is a mess.  The convoy has been successfully painted as intolerant occupiers.  The government and police have been painted as ineffective. 

People aren’t saying “give them what they want”.  People are saying “get rid of them”. 

It’s like the occupy movement,  police finally did something after a month, but people were calling for it to end before that. 

Depends on what the point “the establishment” determines that the trucker convoy becomes a liability,  I suspect that will be soon though.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Enjoying the sudden flip in the country's tone from "we need to be tolerant and work it out" to "why aren't those rednecks in jail already"?



Don't forget "send in the army to take them out".

Assumptions on my part. Ottawa shouldn't be surprised the rest of Canada isn't rolling around on the ground in dispair over them being kept awake at night from truck horns. Ottawa has hardly given the impression of being benevolent leaders caring about anyone outside of the NCR. I think that extends to a chunk of the population too. 

I suspect there would be a big lack of interest if the trucker protest was just out west and Albertans were asking for help. I bet there would be a lot of lol@alberta jokes. But now it's Rome Ottawa that's under duress so it's not funny.


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Don't forget "send in the army to take them out".
> 
> Assumptions on my part. Ottawa shouldn't be surprised the rest of Canada isn't rolling around on the ground in dispair over them being kept awake at night from truck horns. Ottawa has hardly given the impression of being benevolent leaders caring about anyone outside of the NCR. I think that extends to a chunk of the population too.
> 
> I suspect there would be a big lack of interest if the trucker protest was just out west and Albertans were asking for help. I bet there would be a lot of lol@alberta jokes. But now it's Rome Ottawa that's under duress so it's not funny.


Another point is that it's the national capital.  Anything about Ottawa will be higher-profile news.  

If another convoy does go to Toronto this weekend as they claim, we'll see how tolerant Torontonians are.  I have a feeling they will be less nice than the citizens of Ottawa.


----------



## Haggis (3 Feb 2022)

I just watched the OPS Chief on the news.  He stated that "all options" are on the table including having city lawyers apply for a court order or "bringing in the military" under Part VI of the NDA.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Don't forget "send in the army to take them out".
> 
> Assumptions on my part. Ottawa shouldn't be surprised the rest of Canada isn't rolling around on the ground in dispair over them being kept awake at night from truck horns. Ottawa has hardly given the impression of being benevolent leaders caring about anyone outside of the NCR. I think that extends to a chunk of the population too.
> 
> I suspect there would be a big lack of interest if the trucker protest was just out west and Albertans were asking for help. I bet there would be a lot of lol@alberta jokes. But now it's Rome Ottawa that's under duress so it's not funny.


Everybody thinks that it’s some sort of “higher class” that’s being affected.  It’s not.  Downtown is not some sort of rich gentry living there.  While there are some, it is mostly the homeless, (as we’ve seen have had there share of harassment), disabled and just blue collar type workers that can’t get to work. A lot of people live downtown because of proximity to services.  And those service workers can’t do their jobs either.

So all the PS types that people are jealous out of some misguided anger at not being them, mostly live in the suburbs and bedroom communities.   And all at home right now. 

And yes, if it isn’t in your backyard then you don’t care.  That is not just an Ottawa thing.  That’s just a crappy thing humans do everywhere. 

So hate Ottawa all you want.  Hate is what is driving this in the first place.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> I just watched the OPS Chief on the news.  He stated that "all options" are on the table including having city lawyers apply for a court order or "bringing in the military" under Part VI of the NDA.


If it’s that bad, why doesn’t Mayor Jim Watson petition Doug Ford to ask the Feds for ACP?


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> I just watched the OPS Chief on the news.  He stated that "all options" are on the table including having city lawyers apply for a court order or "bringing in the military" under Part VI of the NDA.


I think that is also a veiled message being telegraphed.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

[





Haggis said:


> I just watched the OPS Chief on the news.  He stated that "all options" are on the table including having city lawyers apply for a court order or "bringing in the military" under Part VI of the NDA.



What if the Army showed up and then the individual members refused to take action ?  

We've already seen members give up their service for vaccinations.  Would be inconceivable that they would refuse orders for this ? 

This is way to polarizing to get the CAF involved in IMHO.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If it’s that bad, why doesn’t Mayor Jim Watson petition Doug Ford to ask the Feds for ACP?


I think it’s a risky move. I mean when was the last time the CAF was used in that manner?

Oka?  October Crisis?

Maybe if it is just for logistics support to remove the vehicles maybe.  In a law enforcement peace officer role?  I’m not sure that would be requested.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> [
> 
> What if the Army showed up and then the individual members refused to take action ?
> 
> ...


Then fire them. With possible jail first.  It’s the Army.  If you can’t keep your politics separate from your job then get out.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I think it’s a risky move. I mean when was the last time the CAF was used in that manner?
> 
> Oka?  October Crisis?
> 
> *Maybe if it is just for logistics support to remove the vehicles maybe*.  In a law enforcement peace officer role?  I’m not sure that would be requested.



There are a lot more heavy rotator wreckers in the commercial fleet than the military, so a police escorted rotator would be a lot more useful.

Edit to add: see, lots of local stuff…how about this bad boy.  50-ton, dual rotator AND plenty of Canada flags to boot!


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

Again I see and hear more support for the truckers on SM and on News 95.7 but on the established media is more against the truckers.  

This leads me to believe there is more support for this than some would like to believe.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> MPP Randy Hillier never fails to stick foot in mouth:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488994525469106182
> View attachment 68456


To be scrupulously fair, he did add some context 4 hours after that post

Like I've said elsewhere in this or other threads, if you have to explain what you explained, maybe the first explanation wasn't quite so clear.


Halifax Tar said:


> What if the Army showed up and then the individual members refused to take action ? ...


Really?  Unless the system's changed a lot since I left a long time ago, depending on the circumstances, disobeying a lawful command could do.

That said, I think there are a LOT more cards to be played than "soldiers in the streets with guns."  Someone should be advising those calling for military help more - or decision makers should be listening more to those giving advice, I don't know.


----------



## Spencer100 (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Again I see and hear more support for the truckers on SM and on News 95.7 but on the established media is more against the truckers.
> 
> This leads me to believe there is more support for this than some would like to believe.


100%  The media is lying.


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Again I see and hear more support for the truckers on SM and on News 95.7 but on the established media is more against the truckers.
> 
> This leads me to believe there is more support for this than some would like to believe.


Social media algorithms specifically choose points of view, articles, etc that play on your confirmation bias, because it'll result in more clicks.  This isn't some conspiracy theory - they pretty much acknowledged it.  So if someone didn't support the truckers, their social media feeds would be full of other articles that put them in a bad light.

I'm not sure what News 95.7 is though.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> 100%  The media is lying.


Which media? 😉


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Social media algorithms specifically choose points of view, articles, etc that play on your confirmation bias, because it'll result in more clicks.  This isn't some conspiracy theory - they pretty much acknowledged it.  So if someone didn't support the truckers, their social media feeds would be full of other articles that put them in a bad light.
> 
> I'm not sure what News 95.7 is though.



Ya I get algorithms.  I'm talking more comments than original posts.  

Its Halifax's talk radio... News and such.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Really?  Unless the system's changed a lot since I left a long time ago, depending on the circumstances, disobeying a lawful command could do.


Is infringing on someone's right to freely assemble because they're breaking noise bylaws and the highway traffic act a lawful order? There's 0 reason the CAF needs or should be involved in a non-violent protest that's just inconviencing upper middle class Liberals in downtown Ottawa. How quickly people forget the debacle of Oka.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Is infringing on someone's right to freely assemble because they're breaking noise bylaws and the highway traffic act a lawful order? There's 0 reason the CAF needs or should be involved in a non-violent protest that's just inconviencing upper middle class Liberals in downtown Ottawa. How quickly people forget the debacle of Oka.



Exactly.  Getting us involved is a no win situation.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Is infringing on someone's right to freely assemble because they're breaking noise bylaws and the highway traffic act a lawful order? There's 0 reason the CAF needs or should be involved in a non-violent protest that's just inconviencing upper middle class Liberals in downtown Ottawa. How quickly people forget the debacle of Oka.


At some point protests become unlawful.  This one became unlawful a few days ago.  So authorities are actually being quite tolerant at this point.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> So hate Ottawa all you want.  Hate is what is driving this in the first place.


Are you sure you’re not from Toronto? 🤔


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ya I get algorithms. I'm talking more comments than original posts.


Oh man.  First rule of social media:  

Never read the comments.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Exactly.  Getting us involved is a no win situation.


The first they should do is start with a court injunction.  Start with the actual systems in place to deal with it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Oh man.  First rule of social media:
> 
> Never read the comments.



Its so hard to say no too lol


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> that's just inconviencing upper middle class Liberals in downtown Ottawa


Upper middle class folks who can afford a house are NOT living in downtown Ottawa.  They're in the suburbs like the Glebe, Kanata, or the Golden Triangle (which is close to, but not where the trucks are right now).

The folks living downtown are generally younger, and not as well-off.  

If they wanted to get the attention of the rich Liberal folk, they should be honking their horns in the Glebe and Rockcliffe.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Are you sure you’re not from Toronto? 🤔


Nope.  Are you from Alberta?


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Upper middle class folks who can afford a house are NOT living in downtown Ottawa.  They're in the suburbs.
> 
> The folks downtown are generally younger, and not as well-off.


Exactly.  I don’t think he’s actually from Ottawa though so that would be understandable.


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Exactly.  I don’t think he’s actually from Ottawa though so that would be understandable.


My point stands for any city in Canada (arguably North America).  

Downtown folks are generally younger, hence not as wealthy (aside from family money) - they move to the suburbs once they have a family and want more space.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> At some point protests become unlawful.  This one became unlawful a few days ago.  So authorities are actually being quite tolerant at this point.


Quite tolerant? There's been what, 2 or 3 arrests? No reports of violence or confrontations with police, only amiable conversation and videos of the protestors cleaning up garbage and shoveling snow. I totally get it, you've bought into the Liberal party line of "theyre against us so they must be racist" but it's awfully convenient there's been no more reports of nazi or confederate flags after the protestors themselves tossed those morons out. Media isn't even trying to do investigative journalism to find out who they were.

A slim majority of Canadians support the ideals of this protest, which is end all COVID restrictions and let people manage thier own risk. If you want to lock yourself in your home and be scared of non-existant racists on every street corner, go nuts. Your fear and paranoia shouldn't be our national policy though.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Upper middle class folks who can afford a house are NOT living in downtown Ottawa.  They're in the suburbs like the Glebe, Kanata, or the Golden Triangle (which is close to, but not where the trucks are right now).
> 
> The folks living downtown are generally younger, and not as well-off.
> 
> If they wanted to get the attention of the rich Liberal folk, they should be honking their horns in the Glebe and Rockcliffe.


Just keep them away from Westboro


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> end all COVID restrictions and let people manage thier own risk. If you want to lock yourself in your home and be scared of non-existant racists on every street corner, go nuts. Your fear and paranoia shouldn't be our national policy though.



Louder for the people in the back please.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Quite tolerant? There's been what, 2 or 3 arrests? No reports of violence or confrontations with police, only amiable conversation and videos of the protestors cleaning up garbage and shoveling snow. I totally get it, you've bought into the Liberal party line of "theyre against us so they must be racist" but it's awfully convenient there's been no more reports of nazi or confederate flags after the protestors themselves tossed those morons out. Media isn't even trying to do investigative journalism to find out who they were.
> 
> A slim majority of Canadians support the ideals of this protest, which is end all COVID restrictions and let people manage thier own risk. If you want to lock yourself in your home and be scared of non-existant racists on every street corner, go nuts. Your fear and paranoia shouldn't be our national policy though.


Yes tolerant.  I’m not sure what we are arguing?  An unlawful gathering that’s been allowed to stay for 5 days with little or no arrests or tickets.  So  Why are you taking issue with that?  They didn’t even have a permit.  So yes, Ottawa has been quite tolerant.  I’ve seen crowds dispersed to far less.

I’m not locked in at all.  I have no reason to go downtown though. 

Can you provide a source for this slight majority that supports the current protest? 

Where did I say they were racist?  The organizers have a history of that, yes  but people seem willing to dismiss that.  But I haven’t painted the bulk of them as racists.  

Ah yes fear and paranoia should not be part of our national policy but neither should hatred intolerance and anger,  but here we are.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> If another convoy does go to Toronto this weekend as they claim, we'll see how tolerant Torontonians are.  I have a feeling they will be less nice than the citizens of Ottawa.



"This is Scarborough baby, they don't play that sh*t."


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> "This is Scarborough baby, they don't play that sh*t."


I’m pretty sure Toronto won’t be very tolerant.  And Quebec City will end it before it starts.  Being a fort city has advantages.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Exactly.  Getting us involved is a no win situation.





PuckChaser said:


> Is infringing on someone's right to freely assemble because they're breaking noise bylaws and the highway traffic act a lawful order?


Well, I did say "depending on the circumstances."   If someone is tasked to enforce the law of the land as it exists, and they choose not to, well, there's consequences to that.  Same with a cop choosing not to enforce a law of the land because they disagree with it.  That said ...


PuckChaser said:


> *There's 0 reason the CAF needs or should be involved* ...


1000000% agreement at this point


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Nope.  Are you from Alberta?


Most of my cousins are, and Saskatchewan, oil & gas workers mostly, but no, as it turns out, I’m actually originally from Toronto but emmigrated before it became the center of the Canadian universe.

My question was posed to as such because it sounded a lot like stereotypical Torontonians being put out by something and wanting something to be done about it right away (clear snow, etc.)

Perhaps I should have included a smiley to make it clearer. 😉


----------



## rmc_wannabe (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> "This is Scarborough baby, they don't play that sh*t."


Ever see a tractor up on blocks? You might this weekend if they roll through Morning Side, Bendale, or Warden Woods.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m pretty sure Toronto won’t be very tolerant.



Don't how well these "Freedom"  heroes know the upwards of 240 official and unofficial neighbourhoods within city limits.

That's one for every square mile.

Best take care if they don't.


----------



## Kat Stevens (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Another point is that it's the national capital.  Anything about Ottawa will be higher-profile news.
> 
> If another convoy does go to Toronto this weekend as they claim, we'll see how tolerant Torontonians are.  I have a feeling they will be less nice than the citizens of Ottawa.


Yeah, I can just see all those badass Bay Street lawyers grabbing their Louisville Sluggers and crackin' heads on those pipsqueak truckers. It'll be just like Gangs of New York. Err, except the gangs of Toronto would probably come out en mass for a little light pillaging and burning.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> There are a lot more heavy rotator wreckers in the commercial fleet than the military, so a police escorted rotator would be a lot more useful.
> 
> Edit to add: see, lots of local stuff…how about this bad boy.  50-ton, dual rotator AND plenty of Canada flags to boot!
> View attachment 68462


Ah, but the army likely wouldn’t cost the city or the province anything.  I bet those civilian contractors cost quite a bit.  I heard that in Alberta tow trucks were siding with the protest and refusing to answer calls.  Might be the same thing in Ottawa but not sure.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Ever see a tractor up on blocks? You might this weekend if they roll through Morning Side, Bendale, or Warden Woods.


There is one on Wellington I think.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Feb 2022)

Ottawa: Canada's Tienanmen Square.


The story behind this photo of downtown residents blocking a truck's path​Social media applauds 3 women as 'heroes' after they stood up to vehicles 'terrorizing' neighbourhood​



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/downtown-ottawa-street-residents-take-stance-block-truck-1.6335139


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah, but the army likely wouldn’t cost the city or the province anything.  I bet those civilian contractors cost quite a bit.  I heard that in Alberta tow trucks were siding with the protest and refusing to answer calls.  Might be the same thing in Ottawa but not sure.


If anyone thinks that calling in the Army is a better idea than paying commercial operators to remove trucks so as to save a bit of money, that is some downright horrible thinking (or lack thereof) on their part…politicians…oh, wait… SMH


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Ottawa: Canada's Tienanmen Square.
> 
> 
> The story behind this photo of downtown residents blocking a truck's path​Social media applauds 3 women as 'heroes' after they stood up to vehicles 'terrorizing' neighbourhood​
> ...


Some heros don’t wear capes…

😉


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Ever see a tractor up on blocks? You might this weekend if they roll through Morning Side, Bendale, or Warden Woods.


They would be lucky if it was just on blocks.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> They would be lucky if it was just on blocks.


Now Jane & Finch…that would be spicy.


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Now Jane & Finch…that would be spicy.


I too would like to know how fast a truck burns to the ground.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If anyone thinks that calling in the Army is a better idea than paying commercial operators to remove trucks so as to save a bit of money, that is some downright horrible thinking (or lack thereof) on their part…politicians…oh, wait… SMH


Mel lastman did exactly that. 

Politicians will definitely be thinking that.


----------



## OceanBonfire (3 Feb 2022)

Ottawa police to get more help from RCMP to address trucker convoy protest
					

Some of the main organizers for the 'Freedom Convoy' spoke to reporters Thursday at a press conference decrying that they had been painted as 'racists, misogynists…and even terrorists,' and that no one from the federal or provincial government had met with them.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						RCMP sending more officers to help police Ottawa protest
					

The RCMP is sending more officers to help police the ongoing "Freedom Convoy" demonstration in downtown Ottawa, as the protest over COVID-19 vaccine mandates and other public health restrictions enters a second week.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				












						Ottawa police hand out 30 tickets, including for honking, over convoy disruptions  | Globalnews.ca
					

Ottawa police have laid 30 tickets and charged one man criminally in connection with traffic bylaw violations in the downtown core around the trucker protest.




					globalnews.ca
				




Warning of guns brought at the protest:









						Canada police warn of guns at Ottawa anti-vaccine mandate trucker protest
					

Police in Ottawa see signs that guns have been brought into a truckers' protest against vaccine mandates that has paralyzed the Canadian capital, the police chief said on Wednesday, adding that calling in the military would pose major risks.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If anyone thinks that calling in the Army is a better idea than paying commercial operators to remove trucks so as to save a bit of money ...


If this is what "greater minds" think should be done, someone wearing a military uniform will also be telling someone asking for this help, "uh, the military generally doesn't use taxpayer money to do stuff that's already available via the private sector."


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So strained?



Just a bit.



> The only time he can remember other paramedic services being called in was during the 2002 G8 demonstrations.





Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Another party??


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> If this is what "greater minds" think should be done, someone wearing a military uniform will also be telling someone asking for this help, "uh, the military generally doesn't use taxpayer money to do stuff that's already available via the private sector."


Yes.  But what if the private sector refuses?


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> If this is what "greater minds" think should be done, someone wearing a military uniform will also be telling someone asking for this help, "uh, the military generally doesn't use taxpayer money to do stuff that's already available via the private sector."


Well they certainly wouldn’t let military helicopters be used for water-bombing forest fires with Bambi-buckets, as that directly takes away from the contracted operators.  Don’t see why tow/wrecker services would be any different. 👍🏼


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Feb 2022)

This whole thing has an air of stupidity and ridiculousness about it. Whether or not you support the truckers is moot. They've made their point now its time to move on. 

What we should be focusing on is the fringe people who have hijacked this protest. Root the bastards out - the stocks and the pillories need to be reintroduced.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Then fire them.



Some employers put you out of service for even questioning a call.

Delay service - without a bona fide reason - suspended. 

Refuse service - you are history.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Mel lastman did exactly that.
> 
> Politicians will definitely be thinking that.


Those who look past the popular Mel-bashing of the day will see that a large part of his logic was to ensure that EMS could operate effectively while Toronto’s works dept was clearing the snow as best it could.  It wasn’t to save money.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> But what if the private sector refuses?



Can towing contracts be cancelled, or not re-negotiated?  🤷‍♂️


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Those who look past the popular Mel-bashing of the day will see that a large part of his logic was to ensure that EMS could operate effectively while Toronto’s works dept was clearing the snow as best it could.  It wasn’t to save money.


Sure.  But someone else paid for it.  

EMS access to the downtown core is also a concern in Ottawa.  I’m sure that’s part of the logic as well.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> This whole thing has an air of stupidity and ridiculousness about it. Whether or not you support the truckers is moot. They've made their point now its time to move on.
> 
> What we should be focusing on is the fringe people who have hijacked this protest. Root the bastards out - the stocks and the pillories need to be reintroduced.


Adding that maybe just maybe the PM and his staff stop tweeting about this convoy. THAT in itself is a problem.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Can towing contracts be cancelled, or not re-negotiated?  🤷‍♂️


I would imagine it would depend on the scope of said contract.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Those who look past the popular Mel-bashing of the day will see that a large part of his logic was to ensure that EMS could operate effectively while Toronto’s works dept was clearing the snow as best it could.  It wasn’t to save money.



As I recall, it was the first year of the amalgamation. Metro, Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York, East York and the former City of Toronto. 

Harmonization was a new working concept between them.

I think most people understand a mayor does not have the authority to "call out the army."

Mel reached out for help. If he did not at least ask, Metro could have been sued for wrongful deaths in emergency response time delays.  

A secondary issue was flooding. The catch basins had to be shovelled out.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Hate is what is driving this in the first place.



I thought it was "Freedom"?


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Again I see and hear more support for the truckers on SM and on News 95.7 but on the established media is more against the truckers.
> 
> This leads me to believe there is more support for this than some would like to believe.


Depends on what social media you listen to. 

Local radio here 580 CFRA isn’t too thrilled with them.  If they want them to move on then I’m not sure where the support is otherwise.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> …Warning of guns brought at the protest:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This comes across as politicians using cops to up the ante against the protesters after Khadr 1 of vilification pointing to a Nazi flag and Confederate flags didn’t result in the outright condemnation of all protesters like the PM tried to portray. 

One might ask “what signs“ are the police ‘seeing’ and the what concrete actions are they taking?  Otherwise, it comes across to many as a throw-away statement intended to support politicians continuing to vilify the protest, or somehow justify ramping up actions without themselves looking like they have lost patience with the light and heat that the protesters have if not other than indirectly brought onto the politicians.


----------



## lenaitch (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> There are a lot more heavy rotator wreckers in the commercial fleet than the military, so a police escorted rotator would be a lot more useful.
> 
> Edit to add: see, lots of local stuff…how about this bad boy.  50-ton, dual rotator AND plenty of Canada flags to boot!
> View attachment 68462


The reportedly largest one in Ontario is just down the road (Herb's) - 80-ton.

Most cities have towing contracts, but not all have them for heavy recovery because their need - for police-initiated services - would be relatively infrequent.  Normal recovery of large commercial vehicles is usually initiated by the company or their insurance company.  I figure for every rig they would want to haul away, they'd need it to be surrounded by a public order unit.  Not a quick process by the time you position the wrecker, remove the driveshaft, etc. Whether a particular recovery company would refuse the call is unknown, and I don't know what their rate would be (of course, the city would be on the hook, so to speak).

******

Calling in the military under ACP doesn't mean the military can legally do any more than the police can.  I suppose the feds could invoke the Emergencies Act but I'm not sure bylaw and provincial traffic violations meet the threshold.  Agree that an injunction is a good start.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The reportedly largest one in Ontario is just down the road (Herb's) - 80-ton.
> 
> Most cities have towing contracts, but not all have them for heavy recovery because their need - for police-initiated services - would be relatively infrequent.  Normal recovery of large commercial vehicles is usually initiated by the company or their insurance company.  I figure for every rig they would want to haul away, they'd need it to be surrounded by a public order unit.  Not a quick process by the time you position the wrecker, remove the driveshaft, etc. Whether a particular recovery company would refuse the call is unknown, and I don't know what their rate would be (of course, the city would be on the hook, so to speak).


Yup, may take a while for the first rig or two to go, but the others would probably get the message (and a potential bill) and reconsider moving out as requested. 



lenaitch said:


> Calling in the military under ACP doesn't mean the military can legally do any more than the police can.  I suppose the feds could invoke the Emergencies Act but I'm not sure bylaw and provincial traffic violations meet the threshold.  Agree that an injunction is a good start.



Agree.  As it stand now, it’s YOW By-Laws and OHTA…pending anything more serious from the OPS’ most recent trial-balloon like statement about ‘seeing signs’ of guns…


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:
			
		

> And yes, if it isn’t in your backyard then you don’t care.  That is not just an Ottawa thing.  That’s just a crappy thing humans do everywhere.
> 
> So hate Ottawa all you want.  Hate is what is driving this in the first place.



You're right, that's not Ottawa specific. 

I think what's driving this in the first place is the identity politics that were started a while ago i.e "You're not in Alberta anymore". The government has pushed an Ottawa vs the west feeling for some time now and the "deplorable effect" isn't helping either. The government has really pushed a narrative that anyone who isn't on board with their views are racists, anti science, homophobic, misogynist, and so on.

I bet a lot of the supporters for this protest don't give a shit about mandates, they're pissed at feeling ostracized by the government.



Remius said:


> Then fire them. With possible jail first.  It’s the Army. * If you can’t keep your politics separate from your job then get out.*


This can be a double edged sword though.

The RCMP removing First Nations children from their homes, often by force, and bringing them to residential schools were just doing their job.
Had enough of them said 'That's f**ked up, no.' a whole culture may be in a very different place. Lots of lives saved.

Obviously drastically different example than this but we can't drown our members in ethics training, online course after online course, leverage secondary education as promotion points, then expect soldiers not to have opinions and think for themselves.


----------



## Drallib (3 Feb 2022)

Trudeau didnt say Canada gets a kick back for every Moderna and Pfizer vaccine administered, did he?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488910670674472970
Money is the root of all evil.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Feb 2022)

> This seems to be growing and getting away from the Gov.



Preference cascade.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yup, may take a while for the first rig or two to go, but the others would probably get the message (and a potential bill) and reconsider moving out as requested.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree.  As it stand now, it’s YOW By-Laws and OHTA…pending anything more serious from the OPS’ most recent trial-balloon like statement about ‘seeing signs’ of guns…


There has been only one arrest of one person making his way to the hill with a long gun. So a bit more than seeing but less than all of them having guns.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Feb 2022)

> Then fire them. With possible jail first.  It’s the Army.  If you can’t keep your politics separate from your job then get out.



Depends on exactly what they are asked to do.  "Respect the dignity of all persons."


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> ... The RCMP removing First Nations children from their homes, often by force, and bringing them to residential schools were just doing their job.
> Had enough of them said 'That's f**ked up, no.' a whole culture may be in a very different place. Lots of lives saved ...


Good point & example.  And if they said, "that's f**ked up, no", they'd have faced consequences, too.  And given the government's intent @ that point (which we now look at in a different light), they'd have likely had others do the same thing.  Yeah, it allows the conscientious objectors to look themselves in the mirror, but they'd still have been out of work.


Jarnhamar said:


> ... we can't drown our members in ethics training, online course after online course, leverage secondary education as promotion points, then expect soldiers not to have opinions and think for themselves.


Bang on - but it seems history'll be the ultimate judge, for better or worse


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (3 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You're right, that's not Ottawa specific.
> 
> I think what's driving this in the first place is the identity politics that were started a while ago i.e "You're not in Alberta anymore". The government has pushed an Ottawa vs the west feeling for some time now and the "deplorable effect" isn't helping either. The government has really pushed a narrative that anyone who isn't on board with their views are racists, anti science, homophobic, misogynist, and so on.
> 
> ...


Common, we are experts at it!









						Feds face calls for inquiry into military’s handling of Iraq war crime reports - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The federal Liberal government is facing calls for an independent inquiry following allegations the military failed to respond to a complaint three years ago.




					globalnews.ca
				




"Just don't pay attention to those War Crimes Sergeant!  It's easier to just pretend they never happened" 😁


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Can towing contracts be cancelled, or not re-negotiated?  🤷‍♂️


They aren't refusing it outright. They been saying " I have COVID". They are using the mandates against the politicians. They could even say "I am exposed to a COVID case and thus by health policies going to self isolate to be safe and not spread the virus".
If they tell them to come to work anyway, it just shows the mandates have no logical sense.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> They aren't refusing it outright. They been saying " I have COVID".



Pre-Covid, unless on Standby, when they called for OT, some used to say, "Sorry, love to help. But, I've been drinking."


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You're right, that's not Ottawa specific.
> 
> I think what's driving this in the first place is the identity politics that were started a while ago i.e "You're not in Alberta anymore". The government has pushed an Ottawa vs the west feeling for some time now and the "deplorable effect" isn't helping either. The government has really pushed a narrative that anyone who isn't on board with their views are racists, anti science, homophobic, misogynist, and so on.
> 
> ...


Not denying any of the identity politics you bring up. 

Very different cases.  We are not talking about cultural genocide here.  It’s about restoring order. I’m not advocating the use of the military.  But the question was what would happen if an ACA was granted and troops refused to go.  The implication isn’t a question of ethics but a question of political views.  

And as I said, if they can’t separate their politics from their jobs they should get out.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

And if anyone was wondering.









						Prime Minister Trudeau comments on whether military could be called over convoy protest
					

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says calling in the military to end the trucker convoy standoff in Ottawa is 'not in the cards right now,' nor does he have any plans to engage with the few hundred protesters remaining camped out on city streets.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Note what he said about a few years ago (talking about when indigenous groups blocked rail).  Looks like a consistant approach.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Rex Murphy: A Canadian insurrection? It is to laugh
					

Is it really that hard for politicians to acknowledge that the majority of people who went all the way to Ottawa are just decent folks?




					nationalpost.com
				




Rex gets it right as usual.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Rex Murphy: A Canadian insurrection? It is to laugh
> 
> 
> Is it really that hard for politicians to acknowledge that the majority of people who went all the way to Ottawa are just decent folks?
> ...


He makes excellent points.  

I’m more shocked that you read and quote from the Liberal bought media though.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> And if anyone was wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So who’s telling the truth?  

Ottawa Police Chief Sloly?


> Ottawa Police Chief Peter Sloly said Wednesday that *all options “for the resolution of this demonstration” are on the table*, from a court injunction to potentially calling in the Canadian Armed Forces…



…or PM Trudeau?


> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says calling in the military to end the trucker convoy standoff in Ottawa is “*not in the cards right now*,”


🤔


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

It’s not hard to figure out. 

Chief Sloly says all options are in the table.  With further questioning he didn’t rule out asking for military assistance. 

As far as I know that hasn’t be asked for.  But he said that option was there.  TO ASK.

Trudeau responds  by saying it’s not in the cards.  That might have been used  as a message to the city of Ottawa just like they were obviously telegraphing. 

So they can ask all they want the feds can approve or deny.  Right now they don’t seem to have an appetite to approve.  And they are letting everyone know.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Which may be a statement-specific factual analysis, but it also speaks to a conflicting position by the PM, who on one hand paints the protestors as the worst of racist, misogynistic and violent citizens on the furthest fringes of Canadian society…BUUUUUUUUUT…(by logical extension, as you so note, Remius) implies that Ottawa Police Chief Sloly is asking too much…

Perhaps he should consider a legal name-change to Janus Trudeau???


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s not hard to figure out.
> 
> Chief Sloly says all options are in the table.  With further questioning he didn’t rule out asking for military assistance.
> 
> ...


The province has to ask the Feds first. So Ottawa has to go to the province to seek Aid to the Civil Power UNLESS Ottawa as the NCR has some kind of hall pass.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The province has to ask the Feds first. So Ottawa has to go to the province to seek Aid to the Civil Power UNLESS Ottawa as the NCR has some kind of hall pass.


Correct.  But the ask has to be made. That is my understanding of his statement his him making that ask.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Rex gets it right as usual.



…and Rupa Subramanya makes good points on the hypocrisy of Trudeau’s preachiness supporting Indian protestors years ago versus his unrelenting gaslighting of the protesting truckers in Ottawa:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ru...aders-to-dialogue-with-protesters-but-he-wont


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

Freedom Convoy shunned by South Asian truck drivers
					

The conspicuous absence of South Asian truck drivers in the mega protest over COVID-19 restrictions reflects high vaccination rates among immigrants, reports Fabian Dawson.




					newcanadianmedia.ca
				




The conspicuous absence of South Asian truck drivers in the so-called Freedom Convoy that is protesting border vaccine mandates in Ottawa, is reflective of the community’s willingness to get vaccinated against COVID-19, say industry experts.

The protest has also hit the headlines in India, where almost a quarter of Canada’s 300,000 truck drivers hail from, after Bollywood diva Kangana Ranaut derided Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for “hiding at a secret location” as the protestors choked the nation’s capital.

Trudeau, who has denounced the protests, has been in quarantine since last week after testing positive for COVID 19 alongside two of his three children. He has refused to meet with the protestors, calling the Freedom Convoy an “insult to truth” about COVID vaccines.

“You hardly see any South Asian truckers in this Freedom Convoy protest because the community at large is very pro-vaccine…This is reflective of the high vaccination rates in the South Asian community,” Manan Gupta, the editor of _Road Today_, a magazine that focuses on issues facing South Asian truckers, told _New Canadian Media_.



> “The Freedom Convoy has also been hijacked by some right wing interests and really doesn’t reflect the key issues the trucking industry faces…The organizers and most of the people protesting have no direct links to trucking.”


In the Peel Region of Ontario where there is a large South Asian immigrant population and which is home to about 2,000 trucking companies, almost 90 per cent of residents 12 and older are fully vaccinated, Gupta noted.


“The vaccination rates in Surrey, which has a big South Asian population, is also very high,” said Gupta, adding that most long-haul truck drivers in Canada have been vaccinated.

“I don’t know of any South Asian truckers who are interested in being part of this protest movement,” said Gupta, whose magazine has about 25,000 readers monthly.

Statistics Canada has said that a higher proportion of the South Asian population (82.5 per cent) has “reported a willingness to receive the vaccine.” Similar high rates were reported for other visible minority communities.

*Mostly white*​Immigrants from South Asia have accounted for a massive shift in the demographics of Canada’s truck drivers, according to research conducted by Newcom Media’s editorial teams, drawing on more than 25 years of Canada Census data. Overall, almost one in five (17.8 per cent) of Canada’s truck drivers have South Asian backgrounds.

According to the data: “In Vancouver, South Asian immigrants now account for the majority (55.9 per cent) of drivers. The share in Toronto is not far behind at 53.9 per cent.”

Despite these numbers, the Freedom Convoy and protestors are mainly white Canadians, according to social media postings and on-site media reports.

Wesley Richards, the human resources manager for a B.C. trucking company, said the South Asian truck drivers and fleet owners he has talked to have no interest in the Freedom Convoy movement, which has raised over $9.6 million on its GoFundMe page.

“Most of them are vaccinated because they live in large households with elderly parents and in-laws…they don’t want to be bringing COVID back home from their trips,” he told _NCM_.

“It does not make sense for them to be part of this vaccine protest which has now become a political movement…these guys are more interested in being safe and supporting their families,” he said.

The owner of a trucking company which has been in business for over 50 years, who preferred to remain anonymous, said the Freedom Convoy should be raising issues like the crippling shortage of drivers and highway safety.

“The new border vaccine rules have had minimal impact on our operations, but highway conditions and a lack of drivers is taking a toll,” he said.



> “My drivers were more interested in the recent rally in Vancouver and Surrey which called for better highway conditions rather than this vaccine protest in Ottawa.”


That rally was organized by a new trucking group comprising mainly of South Asian drivers from India called the West Coast Trucking Association (WCTA).

*Driver shortage crisis*​Meanwhile, the Canadian Trucking Alliance, (CTA) which has denounced the antics of the Freedom Convoy, is using the national focus on the industry to urge the government to take “priority action” to address the driver shortage crisis.

In a meeting with Transportation Minister Omar Alghabra and other stakeholders earlier this week, CTA president Stephen Laskowski said: “The labour shortages in trucking warrants priority action by the government of Canada to secure the supply chain and improve Canada’s economic recovery.”

The Alliance reported that the labour shortage in the trucking industry was already a significant problem before the pandemic, with the industry forecasting a shortfall of 55,000 drivers by the end of 2023. Current statistics show the industry is already well on its way to meeting this forecast and in the fourth quarter of 2021 has already surpassed 23,000 truck driver vacancies.

In a statement, the CTA said it would like to work with the Canadian government to develop a pre-approved known employer process for foreign drivers. It is also calling for a more streamlined pathways for foreign drivers to become permanent residents.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …and Rupa Subramanya makes good points on the hypocrisy of Trudeau’s preachiness supporting Indian protestors years ago versus his unrelenting gaslighting of the protesting truckers in Ottawa:



Sounds about right.


> Let me remind you, Canada will always be there to defend the rights of peaceful protesters. *We believe in the process of dialogue* … This is a moment for all of us to pull together.”


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Ontario government says police will take 'appropriate action' as 'Freedom Convoy' heads to Toronto
					

The Ontario government said police are prepared to take “appropriate action” to keep communities safe ahead of planned protests against vaccine mandates set to take place in Toronto this weekend.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				




Will be interesting to see how TO handles this…


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Which may be a statement-specific factual analysis, but it also speaks to a conflicting position by the PM, who on one hand paints the protestors as the worst of racist, misogynistic and violent citizens on the furthest fringes of Canadian society…BUUUUUUUUUT…(by logical extension, as you so note, Remius) implies that Ottawa Police Chief Sloly is asking too much…
> 
> Perhaps he should consider a legal name-change to Janus Trudeau???


"Some things suck here" isn't mutually exclusive from/can exist in the same situation as "Don't need this type of help for the suck in question", no?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Freedom Convoy shunned by South Asian truck drivers
> 
> 
> The conspicuous absence of South Asian truck drivers in the mega protest over COVID-19 restrictions reflects high vaccination rates among immigrants, reports Fabian Dawson.
> ...


The SE community is very political disciplined, had they been told by their leaders to go, they would have gone. Likely the leaders have their own agenda, hence no orders to attend.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Feb 2022)

The protesters are getting more organized


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The protesters are getting more organized


See, this is something they should have done on Day 1. 

I still don't agree with their points, but at least this makes them seem a bit more legit rather than "we're working with a lawyer that we won't name".

The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms (the org who is giving them the legal advice), unsurprisingly, is affiliated with right-wing causes.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Will be interesting to see how TO handles this…


Better than Ottawa is a safe guess.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Better than Ottawa is a safe guess.


Yep.  Hopefully.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Feb 2022)

Just a thought but did the PM denounce BLM, Antifa etc protests? From what I recall there was a lot of looting and destruction during those events.

Or am I just being an offended "Karen".....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Damn, this guy just can't get his message straight.

One minute he calls everyone racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, nazis, fringe minority (gotta find an acronym for his hate groups, he has too many to write all the time) and refuses to meet because he doesn't agree with their message. Even though it is their Rights as Canadians to assemble peacefully and protest the opinions they want. So he lies, resorts to ad hominems, stokes fear and anger and gaslights the Canadian people.

Then, like a chameleon on a checker board, he says his goal is to resolve it peacefully?

The mark of a true leader is not meeting with those you agree with, to suck up and score brownie points with your sycophants. A true, honest and diligent leader meets with those they don't like, so you can sit and discuss and try resolve differences so everyone can work together.

A sad, pathetic little man with a Napoleon complex, but without needing high heels.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489029600441217024


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> See, this is something they should have done on Day 1.
> 
> I still don't agree with their points, but at least this makes them seem a bit more legit rather than "we're working with a lawyer that we won't name".
> 
> The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms (the org who is giving them the legal advice), unsurprisingly, is affiliated with right-wing causes.


Don't forget, these people are not our typical protesters, the majority have never done anything like this before. This is actually how real protests work, not the faux ones we are used to.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (3 Feb 2022)

Points to ponder

Protesters and trucks being forced to leave Ottawa.

Ottawa Police request tow trucks to come and remove the trucks

The tow truck drivers and companies have 2 loyalties

1 to the police so they get the calls to clear accidents 

1 to the truckers, the larger tow trucks and wreckers do a lot of towing for truckers , some of the tow truck drivers are in the protest with their trucks, ( seen in videos and other pictures on social media) do they stick with the truckers as they are the bread and butter of recoveries of broken down, jack knifed trucks,  stuck in the snow etc. 


Who do they stay loyal to?

Second thought to ponder

The lady who started the go fund me page
She is well known in the Break up the west movement.

She is making a social media,  old school media biography.

She has raised more money than the 3 big political parties have.  But she does not have the rules or record keeping rules to follow.

Questions have been raised how the 10 plus million is to be used. 

Could the money be used to fund other movements, extreme hate groups,  more money to fund the pro west break up causes?

Could the money be used to fund a candidate in the next election or fund a party?

So who is the winner of this protest?

Left over goes to fund a veteran program, that  the donors select, is it a real veteran program ?


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> The tow truck drivers and companies have 2 loyalties




The big trucking companies stayed away.

Not knowing the tow industry, other than being a fan of Heavy Rescue 401, I imagine the tow operators would want to remain on good terms with the police, and the big trucking companies, as that's where their bread and butter comes from.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Feb 2022)

Why not just invite them all to their 'Victory Parade', presentation of commemorative hats and t-shirts at the pig roast to follow, then give them all a gas gift card for filling up at Petro-Can on their way home....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Well, someone decided to try get it going. Not getting a lot of traction though.

Make the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag illegal in Canada​








						Sign the Petition
					

Make the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag illegal in Canada




					www.change.org


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Just a thought but did the PM denounce BLM, Antifa etc protests? From what I recall there was a lot of looting and destruction during those events.
> 
> Or am I just being an offended "Karen".....


The events in the US?


----------



## JLB50 (3 Feb 2022)

I think the Nazi flag, the Nazi swastika symbol and the Confederate flag should be made illegal as they are obvious symbols of hatred and oppression, and have already expressed my views to my M.P.  Mind you, some of the neo-fascist groups will devise new flags that also suggest the same thing, but at least the historical symbols will be illegal.


----------



## mariomike (3 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> I think the Nazi flag, the Nazi swastika symbol and the Confederate flag should be made illegal as they are obvious symbols of hatred and oppression, and have already expressed my views to my M.P.  Mind you, some of the neo-fascist groups will devise new flags that also suggest the same thing, but at least the historical symbols will be illegal.



I don't remember seeing those flags. Did anyone?

We had swastika riots in Toronto, but that was before the war.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The big trucking companies stayed away.
> 
> Not knowing the tow industry, other than being a fan of Heavy Rescue 401, I imagine the tow operators would want to remain on good terms with the police, and the big trucking companies, as that's where their bread and butter comes from.


I know you like this one, so let's try unpack it and see some possible reasons why they won't participate. Most of your big name transport companies are international. That means they are federally regulated here and in the States. That means both governments, trudeau and biden, have immense say in how they are allowed to operate, what they can do, where they can go and impose whatever conditions they want on them. Not the way it's supposed to be, but in today's climate, it's a reality. Both countries have mandates on federal organizations and those that do business with the Fed, including logistic companies. The Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg, in the US and Min. of Transport, Omar Alghabra, in Canada. Both take their immediate orders directly from their respective leaders, nobody else. Both leaders have shown tremendous overreach of conditions they impose on their citizens.  Both countries have shown they are not above sanctioning, attacking and censoring those that don't fall in line with their particular ideals. It shows that the big haulers are just being pragmatic. They are responsible to their shareholders and those shareholders want money, not heat from the sitting governments. Those that drive for them are not O/O (owner/operators.) They exploit a loophole, force drivers to incorporate, then hire that private, (incorporated) hauler to drive their trucks. That way everything is put on the (incorporated) driver. Payroll, taxes, fuel, food, etc. The company just pays a lump sum, price/mile to the driver. Those drivers have no truck of their own to take to protests. When they are in a truck, it is not theirs and they also have timings and places they have to meet to continue getting hired.

As well, in today's society, we no longer have big warehouses and storage. Big box stores like Home Depot, Walmart, Canadian Tire, etc are the retailers warehouses, it's why they use pallet racking for shelves in the stores. JIT (just in time) deliveries makes the trailers being hauled the suppliers rolling warehouses. The large firms are mostly JIT, meaning they have contracts, timelines and deadlines that have to be met in order to retain their contracts. Their trucks and trailers are already spoken for and in constant use.

That's my take on why they are not at the protests. Time is money and the big guys just don't have the time to spare.

What's your take?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> I think the Nazi flag, the Nazi swastika symbol and the Confederate flag should be made illegal as they are obvious symbols of hatred and oppression, and have already expressed my views to my M.P.  Mind you, some of the neo-fascist groups will devise new flags that also suggest the same thing, but at least the historical symbols will be illegal.


Make sure you go sign that petition.  You can be one of the first ten people, if you hurry.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> See, this is something they should have done on Day 1.
> 
> I still don't agree with their points, but at least this makes them seem a bit more legit rather than "we're working with a lawyer that we won't name" ...


Good move in the right direction. Also, if they can help contain the worst of the excesses/keep the worst idiots in line, they can become more of a "we really ARE the ones in charge & the ones to talk to".  As for what they're looking for ...


> ,... Tamara Lich, one of the leaders of the convoy, read a prepared statement “*calling on all levels of government to lift all COVID-19 restrictions and mandates*,” and vowed to stay on until there is a “solid plan” to see action on their demands ...


... well, that may not be as easy as they think.


Colin Parkinson said:


> Don't forget, *these people are not our typical protesters*, the majority have never done anything like this before. This is actually how real protests work, not the faux ones we are used to.


Generally speaking, yes, but one of the organizers has been involved in political organizations for at least a little while, so she should have some idea of process & organizational skills (which we're seeing more of now) - unless she didn't figure, going in, that it was going to grow QUITE this big.


----------



## lenaitch (3 Feb 2022)

I'm fairly sympathetic to the argument that there are limited law enforcement solutions to this protest, but given the number of clear violations of municipal and provincial laws here, if they don't move in and dismantle this, then they are not really trying.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489334870753042432


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Damn, this guy just can't get his message straight.
> 
> One minute he calls everyone racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, nazis, fringe minority (gotta find an acronym for his hate groups, he has too many to write all the time) and refuses to meet because he doesn't agree with their message. Even though it is their Rights as Canadians to assemble peacefully and protest the opinions they want. So he lies, resorts to ad hominems, stokes fear and anger and gaslights the Canadian people.
> 
> Then, like a chameleon on a checker board, he says his goal is to resolve it peacefully?


...it was when one of the survey gurus showed him the latest numbers...

"Boss, you're numbers are sliding big time, they think you're deliberately labelling all lower-to-middle-class, multi-racial Canadians as Nazis, racists, bigots, homophobes, transphobes and scum of society...and while you did say that, you need to help them experience your words differently to regain your numbers..."


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm fairly sympathetic to the argument that there are limited law enforcement solutions to this protest, but given the number of clear violations of municipal and provincial laws here, if they don't move in and dismantle this, then they are not really trying.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489334870753042432


Public Works is finding the protestors' ability to construct so quickly without releasing an ACAN or finding at least three separate bidders to be rather puzzling...


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

All that said, at least this is really just something at home that no one else is taking notice of...

Oh wait...


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm fairly sympathetic to the argument that there are limited law enforcement solutions to this protest, but given the number of clear violations of municipal and provincial laws here, if they don't move in and dismantle this, then they are not really trying.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489334870753042432


This is the sort of thing that people are fed up with,  inaction.  They just had a piece on local TV about bylaw still enforcing bylaw on actual citizens of the city while turning a blind eye to the protest.  

However, tickets are starting to be issued,  they impounded a vehicle from a driver that had a restriction on actual driving, tickets for a variety of things have started to be issued including noise billoations etc etc but I doubt it will have an effect.

Most from Wednesday located here :









						Demonstration-Related Traffic Enforcement in Downtown Neighbourhoods
					

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Thurssday, February 3, 2022   9:07am Demonstration-Related Traffic Enforcement in Downtown Neighbourhoods   (Ottawa) - The Ottawa Police Service Traffic Enforcement Unit is actively patrolling downtown residential neighbourhoods to address traffic issues related to the ongo...




					www.ottawapolice.ca


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> He makes excellent points.
> 
> I’m more shocked that you read and quote from the Liberal bought media though.


I thought you were intelligent enough to understand there is always an exception to the rule. I'm apparently mistaken.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Just a thought but did the PM denounce BLM, Antifa etc protests? From what I recall there was a lot of looting and destruction during those events.
> 
> Or am I just being an offended "Karen".....


He attended and took a knee.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I thought you were intelligent enough to understand there is always an exception to the rule. I'm apparently mistaken.


Ah personal insults.   Not shocked.  But I am still pleasantly surprised that you read the MSM.  Good on you.  Hopefully you pick up some facts.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Points to ponder
> 
> Protesters and trucks being forced to leave Ottawa.
> 
> ...


Really?


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah personal insults.   Not shocked.  But I am still pleasantly surprised that you read the MSM.  Good on you.  Hopefully you pick up some facts.


The only difference between that and your impolite little jabs are that you also whine about it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Points to ponder
> 
> Protesters and trucks being forced to leave Ottawa.
> 
> ...


You haven't been listening. The donation fund and disbursement has been rectified in accordance with GoFundMe rules. Accountants and lawyers have been hired to administer the funds. That means they are hands off by the organizers. All truckers have to file a claim, that can be held for the record and the accountants will disburse and record those funds according to the claims received. Any monies remaining are slated to be donated to Veterans organizations. (trudeau just can't give any because we are asking for too much.) I would like to see the organizers take input from Veterans as to which Veteran Orgs are donated to. We are the ones that know who is working for us and who just wants money and accolades from the public.

As far as the organizers are concerned, at least for me, when I heard about the protest in the idea days, I looked at the purpose and means. I agreed. When the GFM started, I donated. When they materialized the convoy I cheered. I still have not looked up who the organizers are. Their past, or their politics. I only know from what I've read in this one website. The only thing I need to know about the organizers is that they provided an idea, an impetus and a drive to fight for the Rights and Freedoms that I hold dear to my existence. As far as their attachment to a western separation movement, I could give a fiddler's fart. If I lived out there and was treated the way they are by this government, I'd be walking away from here myself. trudeau has one thought for the west. Suck it dry of everything it has, salt the earth and let them dry up and blow away. Hell, if they succeed and I still have some time left on this earth, I might just move out there.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2022)

Did Trudeau actually get moved to a secure location/hiding spot?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Now, I know it's just a straw poll, but straw polls are honest. There is no targeted audience for the pollster to call on. No complicated questions designed to steer you towards a stated goal, or any of the other reasons to look at professional pollsters as rigged. Straw polls pose a simple question and ask for a simple answer. In my mind that makes them head and shoulders above professional ones to gauge the real feelings of a group.

Like the donations, this is a relatively recent one, a couple of days I think. And full disclosure, I voted YES.



1,734
Retweets
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----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Did Trudeau actually get moved to a secure location/hiding spot?



I wouldn't doubt it. I've said it before. He would love for this to turn into his _"insurrection" _

Running off and hiding just adds to the drama.


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Now, I know it's just a straw poll, but straw polls are honest. There is no targeted audience for the pollster to call on. No complicated questions designed to steer you towards a stated goal, or any of the other reasons to look at professional pollsters as rigged. Straw polls pose a simple question and ask for a simple answer. In my mind that makes them head and shoulders above professional ones to gauge the real feelings of a group.
> 
> Like the donations, this is a relatively recent one, a couple of days I think. And full disclosure, I voted YES.
> 
> ...


I wonder how Trudeau ended up with 159 seats with 98.13 percent of people thinking he should resign.


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Public Works is finding the protestors' ability to construct so quickly without releasing an ACAN or finding at least three separate bidders to be rather puzzling...


Meanwhile EME is wondering how to recruit them.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> The only difference between that and your impolite little jabs are that you also whine about it.


Like you just did lol.

Sorry i called you on your hypocrisy.   But you don’t get to claim a media conspiracy and bought media when it doesn’t suit your narrative then use it when it does and expect to not have that called out.  It’s disengenuous.   You have pretty much brought up media bias and conspiracy with governments and establishment every single time someone used anything for the MSM to counter your alt news. 

I happen to agree with Rex Murphy.  His points are well founded.  Thanks for posting that btw.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I wonder how Trudeau ended up with 159 seats with 98.13 percent of people thinking he should resign.


Because the other side believed the wrong straw polls.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm fairly sympathetic to the argument that there are limited law enforcement solutions to this protest, but given the number of clear violations of municipal and provincial laws here, if they don't move in and dismantle this, then they are not really trying.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489334870753042432


This former member of TPS Public Order Unit has a different view. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489232877095112705


----------



## Quirky (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I wonder how Trudeau ended up with 159 seats with 98.13 percent of people thinking he should resign.


Flawed electoral system?


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Flawed electoral system?


Does that apply only when the other side wins?


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Because the other side believed the wrong straw polls.


I guess if you go around believing 98 out of a 100 people think the PM should resign it does lead to a bit of a shock on election day.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Flawed electoral system?



Is it flawed if it works in your favor ?


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

But who am I kidding, the joke is on me for ever taking FJ seriously.


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Flawed electoral system?


Yup.

Much rather the system that NK uses that lead to results like the one @Fishbone Jones just shared.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile, truckers, farmers and ordinary citizens in countries around the world have seen this and created, or are creating, their own Freedom Convoys. They know Canadians. They think we're kind and gentle to a fault. They rarely hear of civil unrest in our polite society. They also know, we are extremely hard to rile and piss off. However, and the world knows this as a truth, when Canadians have said they've had enough, they mean it.

They have deduced, correctly, that we have had enough and likely figure that if we're in it for a penny, they are in it for a pound.

Strangely, CBC, Global, CTV and other outlets, that have received trudeau's $600 mil+ largesse via Jerome 'the Giraffe' Diaz and UNIFOR, are extremely quiet about the world citizenry, mimicking Canada and coming out in support against their own government's draconian mandates.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the US protest. They are starting from locations all up and down the west coast and plan to descend on Washington DC. And that country has millions of owner operators. Probably more than anywhere else on earth. That's just trucks. Not cars, not pickups or anything else with wheels, that will join up. If this comes off as they expect, the US transportation system will be locked and frozen and will shut down the US.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Meanwhile, truckers, farmers and ordinary citizens in countries around the world have seen this and created, or are creating, their own Freedom Convoys. They know Canadians. They think we're kind and gentle to a fault. They rarely hear of civil unrest in our polite society. They also know, we are extremely hard to rile and piss off. However, and the world knows this as a truth, when Canadians have said they've had enough, they mean it.
> 
> They have deduced, correctly, that we have had enough and likely figure that if we're in it for a penny, they are in it for a pound.
> 
> ...


This is absolutely huge for a fringe minority.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Brian Peckford speaks about the constitutional issues at stake. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489065773788188676


----------



## blacktriangle (3 Feb 2022)

I'm starting to like the Swiss model of democracy, although I will admit I don't know enough about it yet. Petitions and polls are fine, but they are also easily influenced by various actors (foreign & domestic) - and most importantly, they aren't the law.

For now, we have to find ways to make this country work within the current system. And we just had an election, the people essentially spoke. Could this current crisis be enough grounds for a non-confidence vote?


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This is absolutely huge for a fringe minority.


the PPC got 840 000 votes. 

If 840 000 people were locking down ottawa, make no mistake, it would still be a fringe minority.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Meanwhile, truckers, farmers and ordinary citizens in countries around the world have seen this and created, or are creating, their own Freedom Convoys. They know Canadians. They think we're kind and gentle to a fault. They rarely hear of civil unrest in our polite society. They also know, we are extremely hard to rile and piss off. However, and the world knows this as a truth, when Canadians have said they've had enough, they mean it.
> 
> They have deduced, correctly, that we have had enough and likely figure that if we're in it for a penny, they are in it for a pound.
> 
> ...


You also said there would be half a million participants in Ottawa…


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> I'm starting to like the Swiss model of democracy, although I will admit I don't know enough about it yet. Petitions and polls are fine, but they are also easily influenced by various actors (foreign & domestic) - and most importantly, they aren't the law.
> 
> For now though, we have to find ways to make this country work within the current system. And we just had an election. Could this current crisis be enough grounds for a non-confidence vote?


Lol, a few thousand people overturning the votes of tens of millions?


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Now, I know it's just a straw poll, but straw polls are honest. There is no targeted audience for the pollster to call on. No complicated questions designed to steer you towards a stated goal, or any of the other reasons to look at professional pollsters as rigged. Straw polls pose a simple question and ask for a simple answer. In my mind that makes them head and shoulders above professional ones to gauge the real feelings of a group.



You have to look at where the strawpoll is from. I highly doubt there's many people supportive of Justin Trudeau reading content on TheLine.

More accurately the strawpolls on major media outlets are telling, especially when they get shut down because it doesn't give them the answer they want...


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Don't forget, these people are not our typical protesters, the majority have never done anything like this before. This is actually how real protests work, not the faux ones we are used to.


This point deserves repeating.


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> You also said there would be half a million participants in Ottawa…


The MSM cameras are lying, there are half a million participants in ottawa.

The cameras are just showing a few thousand to set the narrative.

And that's just a small part of the 98.13 percent of people who support the truckers.


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You have to look at where the strawpoll is from. I highly doubt there's many people supportive of Justin Trudeau reading content on TheLine.
> 
> More accurately the strawpolls on major media outlets are telling, especially when they get shut down because it doesn't give them the answer they want...


I'm surprised Trudeau polled at 1.87 percent on that poll.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Meanwhile EME is wondering how to recruit them.


That's CE, not RCEME.


----------



## blacktriangle (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Lol, a few thousand people overturning the votes of tens of millions?


I guess it might also be difficult to do at scale, and with a diverse population like ours.

Even if there was a perfect system out there, I'm still convinced we'd find a way to implement it poorly. As a country we seem ineptly managed, and even more poorly led. Look at the last election - there were literally no good choices for PM. I lucked out and helped reelect a solid MP.

As for the protest, thinking back to when I lived in Centretown when I was younger, I seem to remember a lot of older folks in my building. I do feel for them right now.


----------



## dimsum (3 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> That's CE, not RCEME.


There's a joke about officers in here somewhere.  😔


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> I guess it might also be difficult to do at scale, and with a diverse population like ours.
> 
> Even if there was a perfect system out there, I'm still convinced we'd find a way to implement it poorly. As a country we seem ineptly managed, and even more poorly led. Look at the last election - there were literally no good choices for PM. I lucked out and helped reelect a solid MP.


What system would you suggest that would allow for less people that fill a NHL sized hockey arena to somehow overturn the results of 17,200,000 voters?

And are you sure this would be a system you want to see in place? 

Remember that between the LPC and NDP there are about 50 percent of Canadians voters out there who can mobilize and rally and lock down cities for whenever the CPC find themselves elected. 

And indigenous Canadians number in the millions if you include the Metis, so they could as well. 

Nevermind the bloc who get 1.3 million voters as well. 

Do you want to set a precedent for large groups of protestors overturning election results? If so, please, continue to think about ways to lend validity to those who think that the government has to do anything but reinforce law and order.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Feb 2022)

Stand down, troops, just in case you had any inclination to stand up 

Trudeau rules out negotiating with protesters, says military deployment 'not in the cards'​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-protest-1.6335086?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Evening_1617_410750


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Stand down, troops, just in case you had any inclination to stand up
> 
> Trudeau rules out negotiating with protesters, says military deployment 'not in the cards'​
> 
> ...


Clearly not enough Nazi confederates.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This is absolutely huge for a fringe minority.


Logically, if you’re the fringe of a minority, you’re the majority, right? 😉


----------



## OldTanker (3 Feb 2022)

Under the NDA it was my understanding that the CDS is obliged to respond to a Provincial request for Aid to the Civil Power, per the OKA crisis. However I have been advised that during the Gustafson Lake event although the province wanted the CF to take over the response, the CDS of the day limited military support to personnel and equipment but declined to "take command" of the situation. Can anyone more up-to-date on this comment on the current situation regarding Provincial Requests for ACP? Thanks


----------



## blacktriangle (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> What system would you suggest


How about an actual centrist LPC with competent and less-divisive leadership? One with a little more transparency, that can protect the national interest and balance the interests of the majority of Canadians, regardless of whether those voters vote LPC or not? One that doesn't cater to certain extremes, while polarizing and denouncing others?

I think it would be the best outcome for the largest number of Canadians. And that's what's most important. It doesn't require an overhaul of the system. It requires an overhaul of the current LPC leadership. 

Is that more reasonable?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I wonder how Trudeau ended up with 159 seats with 98.13 percent of people thinking he should resign.


That was then. This is now. Try keep up.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Meanwhile EME is wondering how to recruit them.


The CF is thinking; "How the hell did they move that many trucks so far?"


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The CF is thinking; "How the hell did they move that many trucks so far?"


...and with no MPs pulling dog houses and signing routes.


----------



## Furniture (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> What system would you suggest that would allow for less people that fill a NHL sized hockey arena to somehow overturn the results of 17,200,000 voters?
> 
> And are you sure this would be a system you want to see in place?
> 
> ...


You kind of hit the nail on the head here, but not in the way you might have been intending. 

Our system only works when everybody feels like they are part of the system. When the winning side goes out of it's way to rub it's win in the face of the losing side, and intentionally excludes them, the system starts to break down. We are looking at a system that is being stressed by a PM who has forgotten that he is PM, and not just the leader of the LPC. 

We don't need another election, or anything that extreme, we need a leader that understands he's supposed to be a leader for even the people that didn't vote for him.


----------



## lenaitch (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This former member of TPS Public Order Unit has a different view.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489232877095112705


I'm not sure how this is different view.  People have been hounding the police to 'solve' this protest, and the Chief has expressed the view that there may not be a law enforcement solution.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You have to look at where the strawpoll is from. I highly doubt there's many people supportive of Justin Trudeau reading content on TheLine.
> 
> More accurately the strawpolls on major media outlets are telling, especially when they get shut down because it doesn't give them the answer they want...


Except that poll is available on all social media. Until it gets noticed by his nibs. Then Mr Chan will start working his magic as the guy that controls Canadian content on FarceBook for the liberals.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> How about an actual centrist LPC with competent and less-divisive leadership? One with a little more transparency, that can protect the national interest and balance the interests of the majority of Canadians, regardless of whether those voters vote LPC or not? One that doesn't cater to certain extremes, while polarizing and denouncing others?
> 
> I think it would be the best outcome for the largest number of Canadians. And that's what's most important. It doesn't require an overhaul of the system. It requires an overhaul of the current LPC leadership.
> 
> Is that more reasonable?


I would actually welcome a more centrist LPC.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Stand down, troops, just in case you had any inclination to stand up
> 
> Trudeau rules out negotiating with protesters, says military deployment 'not in the cards'​
> 
> ...


Except he never tells the truth.😉


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You kind of hit the nail on the head here, but not in the way you might have been intending.
> 
> Our system only works when everybody feels like they are part of the system. When the winning side goes out of it's way to rub it's win in the face of the losing side, and intentionally excludes them, the system starts to break down. We are looking at a system that is being stressed by a PM who has forgotten that he is PM, and not just the leader of the LPC.
> 
> We don't need another election, or anything that extreme, we need a leader that understands he's supposed to be a leader for even the people that didn't vote for him.


Stephen Harper did exactly that and lost to Trudeau as a result.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Feb 2022)

Generally, Canadian political leaders hit a best before date and get turfed.  For example, Mulroney left a flaming dumpster fire that resulted in a political party that could have caucus meetings in a Cooper Mini with room for staff.

My impression is that Harper lost - not "Harper lost to Trudeau", but Harper lost.  An intelligent opposition party would provide an alternative, and try to build their tent, not build memes.  If a party can be pouring fistfuls of dollars out the door and not make any progress from one minority to another, they should be the ones firing their leader, not the leader who held ground in their first election.

A "One and done" leadership is not a way to build a strong party that will have a chance at getting elected.  That sort of behaviour by the LPC did, however, benefit... the Harper Conservatives.


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Generally, Canadian political leaders hit a best before date and get turfed.  For example, Mulroney left a flaming dumpster fire that resulted in a political party that cold have caucus meetings in a Cooper Mini with room for staff.
> 
> My impression is that Harper lost - not "Harper lost to Trudeau", but Harper lost.  An intelligent opposition party would provide an alternative, and try to build their tent, not build memes.  If a party can be pouring fistfuls of dollars out the door and not make any progress from one minority to another, they should be the ones firing their leader, not the leader who held ground in their first election.
> 
> A "One and done" leadership is not a way to build a strong party that will have a chance at getting elected.  That sort of behaviour by the LPC did, however, benefit... the Harper Conservatives.


And the NDP who had Jack Layton stick around long enough for everyone to get reasonably comfortable with him as opposed to the revolving door of LPC leaders.

In a world where Jack Layton lived and Justin Trudeau decided not to run the LPC probably would have followed this pattern to their political grave


----------



## Quirky (3 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is it flawed if it works in your favor ?



We need to just split canada and get it all over with.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Generally, Canadian political leaders hit a best before date and get turfed.  For example, Mulroney left a flaming dumpster fire that resulted in a political party that could have caucus meetings in a Cooper Mini with room for staff.


Mini Cooper😉


----------



## RangerRay (3 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You have to look at where the strawpoll is from. I highly doubt there's many people supportive of Justin Trudeau reading content on TheLine.


Not to be confused with The Line here:








						The Line
					

Commentary for Canadians. Click to read The Line, a Substack publication with tens of thousands of readers.




					theline.substack.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Not to be confused with The Line here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, when I signed it, it was on FB. I paid zero attention to who put it up. It was a straight forward question, requiring a straight forward answer. It didn't  matter who posted it or where it came from. As with most polls, I find them immaterial. I sign them because I get just a tiny bit of personal satisfaction, poking a finger in trudeau's virtual eye. It's a close as I can get to feeling I'm  alone in an elevator with him on a 40 floor trip with no repercussions about his condition when we get to the top.


----------



## Altair (3 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Like I said, when I signed it, it was on FB. I paid zero attention to who put it up. It was a straight forward question, requiring a straight forward answer. It didn't  matter who posted it or where it came from. As with most polls, I find them immaterial. I sign them because I get just a tiny bit of personal satisfaction, poking a finger in trudeau's virtual eye. It's a close as I can get to feeling I'm  alone in an elevator with him on a 40 floor trip with no repercussions about his condition when we get to the top.


I think we can find this a bit more immaterial than most.

Also, if immaterial, why post it here?


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2022)

Looks like farmers are joining the seige.








						Farmers coming to Parliament Hill to support trucker convoy over weekend
					

A Facebook group was created to organize the event, which will see a tractor convoy coming from Alexandria.




					ottawa.citynews.ca


----------



## Mills Bomb (3 Feb 2022)

There seems to be a misconception in certain groups and media sources that this protest is "huge". I suspect pro-convoy news sources are trying to hype this thing up like it's some massive event with more support than it actually has. It's definitely intimidating local residents but it's not solely because of the numbers of people attending but just because of all the big trucks, honking, harassment, and other vehicles. But if there were no trucks and these protestors were on foot, this really wouldn't be all that big of a protest.

I've witnessed a lot of protests in this city, this protest is definitely the longest, loudest, and the most dynamic, HOWEVER, it is a not the largest in terms of numbers and it's not even close. The city thinks we had about 10,000 people at the peak of it last weekend. It's possible it was a bit more than that, but if so not by much. This estimate is consistent with photos of the event from the air and in comparison to other events I've seen and the numbers reported from them (That I believe are fairly accurate).

A few examples of substantially larger protests and events;

The 2005 anti-Bush protest was MANY times larger than this one. It's really not even remotely comparable and it would dwarf this protest by many times over. To think this protest is comparable to a really big protest like that is honestly laughable.

The 2021 George Floyd protest in Ottawa brought about 20,000 people, so that was about double the size of this one in terms of people who made an effort to actually physically attend.

A typical Ottawa "Capital Pride" event also a little bigger in numbers. It should go without saying that a typical Canada Day event is also many times larger in terms of attendance.

A Sens game (Stadium capacity is around 19,000) or literally any large sports event or music festival. Justin Bieber has single handedly brought more people to Ottawa than the entire convoy. 

Hope that puts things a bit more into perspective for anyone who may be wondering how this stacks up.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

"Powerful speech on the Canadian Charter of Rights & Freedoms by Brian Peckford, the last surviving member who helped write it back in 1981."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489065773788188676
Not sure if his snowflake analogy was intentional or not🤣


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> the PPC got 840 000 votes.
> 
> If 840 000 people were locking down ottawa, make no mistake, it would still be a fringe minority.





Mills Bomb said:


> There seems to be a misconception in certain groups and media sources that this protest is "huge". I suspect pro-convoy news sources are trying to hype this thing up like it's some massive event with more support than it actually has. It's definitely intimidating local residents but it's not solely because of the numbers of people attending but just because of all the big trucks, honking, harassment, and other vehicles. But if there were no trucks and these protestors were on foot, this really wouldn't be all that big of a protest.
> 
> I've witnessed a lot of protests in this city, this protest is definitely the longest, loudest, and the most dynamic, HOWEVER, it is a not the largest in terms of numbers and it's not even close. The city thinks we had about 10,000 people at the peak of it last weekend. It's possible it was a bit more than that, but if so not by much. This estimate is consistent with photos of the event from the air and in comparison to other events I've seen and the numbers reported from them (That I believe are fairly accurate).
> 
> ...



Huge meaning it’s gone cross country and international. That it involves normal everyday blue collar people and not your usual semi-pro protestors. That in days it raised over 10M in donations and has received commentary from famous people round the world. All this with the MSM not being honest in their reporting. 

Not bad for a fringe minority of deplorables.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Justin Bieber has single handedly brought more people to Ottawa than the entire convoy.



Yeah, but after one night, two tops, Justin leaves town.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not sure how this is different view.  People have been hounding the police to 'solve' this protest, and the Chief has expressed the view that there may not be a law enforcement solution.


You were suggesting in light of all the minor infractions, the police weren’t trying hard enough for not moving in and dismantling the protest.

This guy states the police may ignore minor offences to allow the freedom of expression and peaceful assembly.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> We need to just split canada and get it all over with.


🍿


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> There seems to be a misconception in certain groups and media sources that this protest is "huge". I suspect pro-convoy news sources are trying to hype this thing up like it's some massive event with more support than it actually has. It's definitely intimidating local residents but it's not solely because of the numbers of people attending but just because of all the big trucks, honking, harassment, and other vehicles. But if there were no trucks and these protestors were on foot, this really wouldn't be all that big of a protest.
> 
> I've witnessed a lot of protests in this city, this protest is definitely the longest, loudest, and the most dynamic, HOWEVER, it is a not the largest in terms of numbers and it's not even close. The city thinks we had about 10,000 people at the peak of it last weekend. It's possible it was a bit more than that, but if so not by much. This estimate is consistent with photos of the event from the air and in comparison to other events I've seen and the numbers reported from them (That I believe are fairly accurate).
> 
> ...


How many had the Chief of Police saying he wasn’t ruling out calling in the Army to clear them out?


----------



## Mills Bomb (3 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> How many had the Chief of Police saying he wasn’t ruling out calling in the Army to clear them out?



None. As previously mentioned, this is the most dynamic protest and the first to involve large numbers of vehicles which I suspect is why they are reporting problems dealing with it.

As for actual attendants? Less than a Sens game. Nowhere near music or sports events. A total bust in comparison to the number of attendants the organizers were claiming last week. Not sure how I could be more honest in terms of comparisons or numbers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> As for actual attendants? Less than a Sens game.


There you go. People should stop complaining about so few people.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> None. As previously mentioned, this is the most dynamic protest and the first to involve large numbers of vehicles which I suspect is why they are reporting problems dealing with it.
> 
> As for actual attendants? Less than a Sens game. Nowhere near music or sports events. A total bust in comparison to the number of attendants the organizers were claiming last week. Not sure how I could be more honest in terms of comparisons.


So then this ‘very small crowd’ has had a high protest efficiency rating, then.  Funny how the CTA hadn’t had any meaningful agreements with the Government until this week…but I suppose that is merely coincidence…


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Feb 2022)

Government: How long do you plan to protest? 
Trucker: Just two weeks to flatten the curve. 
Government: That’s not funny. 
Trucker: The sooner you comply, the sooner we can go back to normal. We’re all in this together.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I think we can find this a bit more immaterial than most.
> 
> Also, if immaterial, why post it here?


I don't really care what you think. And unless that's the 'Royal We' it's rather presumptuous, priggish and trudeauesque to think you speak for anyone but yourself. I think your opinions suck bollocks, which is why I don't see most of your stuff or typically engage with you.

Why post it? *BECAUSE...I...CAN*. It's one of those little things you find so pesky about the Charter.

The fact you feel the need to come after me for it makes me smile. Like this 😁


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> There seems to be a misconception in certain groups and media sources that this protest is "huge". I suspect pro-convoy news sources are trying to hype this thing up like it's some massive event with more support than it actually has. It's definitely intimidating local residents but it's not solely because of the numbers of people attending but just because of all the big trucks, honking, harassment, and other vehicles. But if there were no trucks and these protestors were on foot, this really wouldn't be all that big of a protest.
> 
> I've witnessed a lot of protests in this city, this protest is definitely the longest, loudest, and the most dynamic, HOWEVER, it is a not the largest in terms of numbers and it's not even close. The city thinks we had about 10,000 people at the peak of it last weekend. It's possible it was a bit more than that, but if so not by much. This estimate is consistent with photos of the event from the air and in comparison to other events I've seen and the numbers reported from them (That I believe are fairly accurate).
> 
> ...


Here's, some perspective. I think your purposely downplaying the numbers to fit your narrative. The protest is not just those on the ground. The protest is the thousands that lined the highways, rest centres, overpasses and shopping malls in support. It all those people, that supported by donating more than $10,000,000. A phenomenal amount of money, no matter how you try slice it. The other thousands of people that are supporting and setting up satellite protests around the country. And the Conservative Party of Canada, now that they've slipped the yolk of indecision and flip flopping.

So no, it is not a misconception that it is huge. The misconception is on your part.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb was on the verge of hysteria over this only a few days ago, now it’s just a small gathering of less significance then a hockey game or Bieber concert.


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

__





						Abacus Data |   Pandemic frustration may be running high, but more don’t side with the so-called “Freedom Convoy”
					






					abacusdata.ca


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

“so-called”


----------



## Remius (3 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> “so-called”


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

So is that 32% support more or less than the support for the so-called Natural Governing Party?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> So is that 32% support more or less than the support for the so-called Natural Governing Party?


That isn’t what the poll is about.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Meh…only 68%…not nearly as much as the 98% who want Trudeau fired. 😆


----------



## Spencer100 (4 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> I think the Nazi flag, the Nazi swastika symbol and the Confederate flag should be made illegal as they are obvious symbols of hatred and oppression, and have already expressed my views to my M.P.  Mind you, some of the neo-fascist groups will devise new flags that also suggest the same thing, but at least the historical symbols will be illegal.


Only if you include the hammer and sickle too. The multiple of deaths is 100 million more.


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> If paramedics are getting bricks thrown at them,
> 
> Doors locked. Windows UP. FIDO
> 
> ...


Report this


The Bread Guy said:


> Which media? 😉


The Media that was paid $600 000 000 to lie


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So trudeau bashing the convoy plays well with the NDP LPC crowd.

Plays poorly with the PPC CPC crowd.

Yeah, hes not losing anything by taking the hard line here.


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Yes tolerant.  I’m not sure what we are arguing?  An unlawful gathering that’s been allowed to stay for 5 days with little or no arrests or tickets.  So  Why are you taking issue with that?  They didn’t even have a permit.  So yes, Ottawa has been quite tolerant.  I’ve seen crowds dispersed to far less.
> 
> I’m not locked in at all.  I have no reason to go downtown though.
> 
> ...


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Pre-Covid, unless on Standby, when they called for OT, some used to say, "Sorry, love to help. But, I've been drinking."


Or stuck in traffic ⛔🤣


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So who’s telling the truth?
> 
> Ottawa Police Chief Sloly?
> 
> ...


Right meow...no we would never introduce vaccine passports (doug ford in july) post election...why didnt we do this sooner?


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The events in the US?


Whats that smell? Oh burning churches eww 🤢


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Did Trudeau actually get moved to a secure location/hiding spot?


I think he just dressed up as a trucker 🚛🚒


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> You also said there would be half a million participants in Ottawa…


Counting the police?


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Huge meaning it’s gone cross country and international. That it involves normal everyday blue collar people and not your usual semi-pro protestors. That in days it raised over 10M in donations and has received commentary from famous people round the world. All this with the MSM not being honest in their reporting.
> 
> Not bad for a fringe minority of deplorables.


Not to mention people on the side of the road and overpasses cheering them along all across the country


----------



## blacktriangle (4 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Only if you include the hammer and sickle too. The multiple of deaths is 100 million more.


Yup, very few people realize the brutal history of communism. If we're serious about calling out hate and violence in society, that one should be near the top of the list. While we're at it, I'd also add the Daesh flag to the list.

I agree that censoring things is a slippery slope, and realize that those who hold power and control the narrative can use it to further their goals. However, banning the most extreme symbols might at least make life more difficult for would-be agitators that seek to subvert otherwise legitimate protests.


----------



## Misses muffett (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Here's, some perspective. I think your purposely downplaying the numbers to fit your narrative. The protest is not just those on the ground. The protest is the thousands that lined the highways, rest centres, overpasses and shopping malls in support. It all those people, that supported by donating more than $10,000,000. A phenomenal amount of money, no matter how you try slice it. The other thousands of people that are supporting and setting up satellite protests around the country. And the Conservative Party of Canada, now that they've slipped the yolk of indecision and flip flopping.
> 
> So no, it is not a misconception that it is huge. The misconception is on your part.


And sent the PM into hiding 😷


----------



## Drallib (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> the PPC got 840 000 votes.
> 
> If 840 000 people were locking down ottawa, make no mistake, it would still be a fringe minority.



Would have been 840 001 if they had a candidate in my riding….


----------



## Drallib (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Except he never tells the truth.😉


My thoughts exactly.

Coronavirus: Trudeau opposes vaccine passports in Canada, says it would have ‘divisive impacts’ | Watch News Videos Online


----------



## Drallib (4 Feb 2022)

Here’s an uplifting protest video for folks to enjoy this morning ☕

https://twitter.com/themarieoakes/status/1489372395261632513?s=1


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Feb 2022)

Drallib said:


> Here’s an uplifting protest video for folks to enjoy this morning ☕
> 
> https://twitter.com/themarieoakes/status/1489372395261632513?s=1



It's actually part 1 of 2.  

Interesting take.


----------



## lenaitch (4 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> You were suggesting in light of all the minor infractions, the police weren’t trying hard enough for not moving in and dismantling the protest.
> 
> This guy states the police may ignore minor offences to allow the freedom of expression and peaceful assembly.


He states "lawful exercise of the Charter".  I'm not sure an illegal structure and possibly illegal fuel dump falls under that umbrella.  I haven't researched the court rulings on this aspect of the Charter, but my take is we have Freedom Expression, not 'freedom of protest'.  Can I build a  structure on somebody else's land on a normal day in July and call it expression?

Is this a hill to die on?  I'm not sure, and one person's minor offence is another person's 'hang 'em high' event.  If I had a store on Wellington and it was peacefully (because I ran out the back door in fear) occupied as a protest headquarters or warming centre, is that expression?

The nub of the argument often boils down to the old saying (sort of) that the freedom of your fist stops at my nose.   Is the shack on federal land our collective nose?


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Drallib said:


> Would have been 840 001 if they had a candidate in my riding….


Well, hopefully you continue to support them in the future.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Misses muffett said:


> Report this
> 
> The Media that was paid $600 000 000 to lie


So, then, which is the lie from these bought-and-paid-for outlets? 








						LILLEY: Media's handling of trucker convoy one-sided, inflammatory, shameful
					

Run for your lives, the barbarians are at the gates!




					torontosun.com
				











						BONOKOSKI: The Freedom Convoy crashed and burned
					

Throughout the early night Saturday, fireworks cut the quiet -21C air, as the adrenaline and the whisky first flowed through parts of the Freedom Convoy.




					torontosun.com


----------



## Haggis (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> So, then, which is the lie from these bought-and-paid-for outlets?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Both.  Or neither They are opinion pieces, not journalism.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Both.  Or neither They are opinion pieces, not journalism.


You're right (even though if the outlets were "in the bag", one of those would be less likely to appear) - then all this reporting must be lies?








						'No intentions of staying one day longer than necessary': Convoy protest organizers
					

Leaders of the trucker protest that has paralyzed downtown Ottawa for a week say they won’t leave until mask and vaccine mandates are ended.




					ottawasun.com
				











						WARMINGTON: Support for Freedom Convoy heats up despite Trudeau's chill
					

It was an extremely cold day to be out on Hwy. 401 cheering on a convoy of truckers heading to Ottawa hoping to end COVID vaccine mandates.




					torontosun.com
				











						TAMARA LICH: Who is the 'spark that lit the fire?'
					

The woman organizers describe as "the spark that lit the fire" of the truck convoy protest that has occupied downtown Ottawa




					ottawasun.com
				



Just sayin' that everything has _some_ kernel of truth while nothing has _everything_ - well, I'd have to ... refine that a bit describing the CBC, though


----------



## mariomike (4 Feb 2022)

__





						Abacus Data |   Pandemic frustration may be running high, but more don’t side with the so-called “Freedom Convoy”
					






					abacusdata.ca
				





Remius said:


> That isn’t what the poll is about.



Interesting methodology.



> The survey was conducted with 1,410 Canadian adults from January 31 to February 2, 2022. A random sample of panelists were invited to complete the survey from a set of partner panels based on the Lucid exchange platform. These partners are typically double opt-in survey panels, blended to manage out potential skews in the data from a single source.





> The margin of error for a comparable probability-based random sample of the same size is +/- 2.7%, 19 times out of 20.





> The data were weighted according to census data to ensure that the sample matched Canada’s population according to age, gender, educational attainment, and region. Totals may not add up to 100 due to rounding.





> Abacus Data follows the CRIC Public Opinion Research Standards and Disclosure Requirements that can be found here:  Standards | CRIC





> Two out of three (68%) interviewed in our latest nationwide poll feel they have “very little in common with how the protestors in Ottawa see things”, while 32% say they “have a lot in common.”





> Those who are more likely to feel aligned with the protestors are People’s Party voters (82%)





> many were turned off by the methods and messages that they observed from the convoy, once it arrived in Ottawa.



I don't see "Freedom" wining many hearts and minds with GTA voters at shopping centres this weekend.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489313141460803593


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> So trudeau bashing the convoy plays well with the NDP LPC crowd.
> 
> Plays poorly with the PPC CPC crowd.
> 
> Yeah, hes not losing anything by taking the hard line here.


Except he's continuing to divide people... Sure he's unlikely to lose a seats over it, but he undermines the system that props him up. 

If he keeps poking at the divide, eventually more people will join in as they figure they have nothing to lose by "triggering" the PM and urban LPC supporters.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Except he's continuing to divide people... Sure he's unlikely to lose a seats over it, but he undermines the system that props him up.
> 
> If he keeps poking at the divide, eventually more people will join in as they figure they have nothing to lose by "triggering" the PM and urban LPC supporters.


You're not wrong, but hes playing politics, as politicians tend to do.

Fact is, Trudeau is never going to get CPC voters. He needs to hunt down those votes on the left. The fact this plays well with the NDP base is likely what is driving his calculus. Same with Singh, who has had a similiar hard stance on the truckers.

Does it undermine the system, yeah. But does he care about that or does he care about being relected?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

How Trudeau bought the media​








						How Trudeau bought the media
					

Through a long process of regulation, licensing, and cash handouts, Trudeau has managed to bring nearly the entire Canadian media under government supervision.




					westernstandardonline.com
				




The overwhelming bulk of Canada’s media is bought, and paid for, by the federal government. In particular, by the Liberal Party which has extended generous taxpayer subsidies to outlets that comply with its diktats. 

In its 2019 budget, the federal government rolled out nearly $600 million in subsidies for select media outlets that obtain the federal government’s approval. The latest $600 million cheque is meant to fill a blind spot in exerting government influence over the Canadian print and online media. 


This was a ‘blind spot’, because most of the rest of the Canadian media is already on the take. 

Magazines receive large subsidies to defray the costs of printing, and mailing. Massive “regulatory subsidies” give a cornered market to the government’s favoured broadcasters, and make entry by competitors (like the late Sun News Network) virtually impossible. 

The elephant of government media control is obviously the CBC, with an annual bill to taxpayers well in excess of $1 billion.............



More at link


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> ..... The overwhelming bulk of Canada’s media is bought, and paid for, by the federal government. In particular, by the Liberal Party which has *extended generous taxpayer subsidies to outlets that comply with its diktats* ...


Including Postmedia/National Post/Sun media, which have never exactly been ... boosters for Team Red? 😉


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Including Postmedia/National Post/Sun media, which have never exactly been ... boosters for Team Red? 😉


Anything that is not the Rebel or western standard is boosting the LPC you see.

Nevermind that legacy media was on the ropes and about to go largely banrupt without government intervention.

Its all a ploy you see....


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> ... legacy media was on the ropes and about to go largely banrupt without government intervention.
> 
> Its all a ploy you see....


To be fair to all parties, it's not as if Team Blue didn't subsidize media, too, in their respective turns in the wheelhouse.

And remember Team Blue was at the helm when Sun Media didn't make it into basic cable as well.

Meanwhile, looky here from a Team Blue MP from Quebec via Twitter ...


----------



## stoker dave (4 Feb 2022)

I live in Ottawa and am fed up with the inaction in resolving this situation. 

A counter-protest is planned for Saturday.  I may go. 

Are any veterans' groups supporting this counter-protest?  Anyone here thinking of going?


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To be fair to all parties, it's not as if Team Blue didn't subsidize media, too, in their respective turns in the wheelhouse.
> 
> And remember Team Blue was at the helm when Sun Media didn't make it into basic cable as well.
> 
> ...


I know this, you know this, but i suspecg those who use the Rebel and westernstandard dont much care about stuff like that.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Feb 2022)

stoker dave said:


> I live in Ottawa and am fed up with the inaction in resolving this situation.
> 
> A counter-protest is planned for Saturday.  I may go.
> 
> Are any veterans' groups supporting this counter-protest?  Anyone here thinking of going?


If you currently serving in the military, you should think twice about going anywhere near either side of the protest.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I know this, you know this, but i suspecg those who use the Rebel and westernstandard dont much care about stuff like that.


Hard when straw polls are used as a barometer


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> If you currently serving in the military, you should think twice about going anywhere near either side of the protest.


If he’s doing it as a private citizen?


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Hard when straw polls are used as a barometer


Straw polls are the most accurate polls, especially when you get results that would make Putin blush.


----------



## Mills Bomb (4 Feb 2022)

> Fishbone Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Here's, some perspective. I think your purposely downplaying the numbers to fit your narrative. The protest is not just those on the ground. The protest is the thousands that lined the highways, rest centres, overpasses and shopping malls in support. It all those people, that supported by donating more than $10,000,000. A phenomenal amount of money, no matter how you try slice it. The other thousands of people that are supporting and setting up satellite protests around the country. And the Conservative Party of Canada, now that they've slipped the yolk of indecision and flip flopping.
> ...



The OPS have said there was only 8,000. My guess of 10,000 (Or maybe a little more) was based on what I saw myself and some earlier reports, so I've been really generous with the numbers. I'm not sure how I'm "downplaying the numbers" to fit any "narrative" given it was actually even less.

If you think I'm wrong please come visit Ottawa, I think it would really eye opening and you won't be all that impressed. Last night the number of so-called "freedom fighters" was only about 250 trucks remaining, they were still obnoxiously blasting their horns and shooting off fireworks in the middle of the night, but their numbers are dropping to something comparable to a local punk-rock show. At this point we'll see how many come back for another weekend, the police have announced they will be much better prepared this time.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> The OPS have said there was only 8,000. My guess of 10,000 (Or maybe a little more) was based on what I saw myself and some earlier reports, so I've been really generous with the numbers. I'm not sure how I'm "downplaying the numbers" to fit any "narrative" given it was actually even less.
> 
> If you think I'm wrong please come visit Ottawa, I think it would really eye opening and you won't be all that impressed. Last night the number of so-called "freedom fighters" was only about 250 trucks remaining, they were still obnoxiously blasting their horns and shooting off fireworks in the middle of the night, but their numbers are dropping to something comparable to a local punk-rock show. At this point we'll see how many come back for another weekend, the police have announced they will be much better prepared this time.


Hush with that talk.

Its clear that the majority of Canadians support them and any talk otherwise is team red propaganda.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> The OPS have said there was only 8,000. My guess of 10,000 (Or maybe a little more) was based on what I saw myself and some earlier reports, so I've been really generous with the numbers. I'm not sure how I'm "downplaying the numbers" to fit any "narrative" given it was actually even less.
> 
> If you think I'm wrong please come visit Ottawa, I think it would really eye opening and you won't be all that impressed. Last night the number of so-called "freedom fighters" was only about 250 trucks remaining, they were still obnoxiously blasting their horns and shooting off fireworks in the middle of the night, but their numbers are dropping to something comparable to a local punk-rock show.


250 can still cause enough disruption.

PPS is the one to look at for crowd estimates.

I won’t minimise the size as even 8000 is a lot.  Given the weather and such it is still a good number. 

The biggest difference here is the hardware. It’s a force multiplier and a dynamic for the authorities that they aren’t well equipped to deal with. 

I suspect that the legit ones are now gone.  These ones are here to just cause trouble now.

The city needs to get the injunction and move this on.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> 250 can still cause enough disruption.
> 
> PPS is the one to look at for crowd estimates.
> 
> ...


Injunctions mean nothing.

The native railway protests had injunctions, the police did nothing.

The logging protest in BC had injunctions, it lead to fistfights with protestors and disparaging comments made of the RCMP.

Its clear that since Oka, nobody want the bad press involved in taking down a protest.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Injunctions mean nothing.
> 
> The native railway protests had injunctions, the police did nothing.
> 
> ...


Injunction is the escalation required.  You don’t go start cracking heads until you go through the process.  So the city needs to start there.  An injunction will mean little to the occupiers but it will give authorities legal backup to do their jobs.


----------



## mariomike (4 Feb 2022)

> I live in Ottawa and am fed up with the inaction in resolving this situation.
> A counter-protest is planned for Saturday. I may go.





Remius said:


> If he’s doing it as a private citizen?



For reference to the discussion,









						Protesting while serving
					

Hi there, I have been mulling this question over and couldn't find an answer.  Once I join the military, what are the rules regarding protesting? I assume that my personal opinions will not always match exactly with those of the government or even the military.  Am I still afforded the same...




					army.ca
				



7 pages.
LOCKED.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Injunction is the escalation required.  You don’t go start cracking heads until you go through the process.  So the city needs to start there.  An injunction will mean little to the occupiers but it will give authorities legal backup to do their jobs.


Injunction or no injunction, the Ottawa police chief has made it pretty clear that he doesnt see a policing solution to this.

What is an injunction going to do that changes his mind?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Injunction or no injunction, the Ottawa police chief has made it pretty clear that he doesnt see a policing solution to this.
> 
> What is an injunction going to do that changes his mind?


It has nothing to do with changing his mind. An injunction is not a police solution it’s a legal one. 

Before you do anything you need to exhaust all options.  So let’s say it gets to the point where they would ask for the CAF for assistance to remove them.  The first question that would be asked is “have all other options been exhausted”.  If the answer is no then they will just send it back down.

In the case of occupy Ottawa, before the police went in to clear them out, they got an injunction.  

It allows the police to arrest anyone who fails to respect said injunction.  

Sloly was basically telling the city and the province to do something.  Whether it was asking for CAF assistance or to get the legal ball rolling so he could start removing the occupiers.


----------



## captloadie (4 Feb 2022)

This weekend could actually have everlasting effects on the lives of Canadians for the foreseeable future if the protest/counter protest gets out of control. Can you all imagine the fallout if the protest turns violent, and either side results to using a firearm? I would imagine that the Freedom Convoy members were all strictly warned about bringing firearms along with them, but if someone were to decide to defend their truck with a firearm, think of the repercussions.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

captloadie said:


> This weekend could actually have everlasting effects on the lives of Canadians for the foreseeable future if the protest/counter protest gets out of control. Can you all imagine the fallout if the protest turns violent, and either side results to using a firearm? I would imagine that the Freedom Convoy members were all strictly warned about bringing firearms along with them, but if someone were to decide to defend their truck with a firearm, think of the repercussions.


Somebody was already arrested for making his way there with a fire arm.


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

stoker dave said:


> I live in Ottawa and am fed up with the inaction in resolving this situation.
> 
> A counter-protest is planned for Saturday.  I may go.
> 
> Are any veterans' groups supporting this counter-protest?  Anyone here thinking of going?


If the protestors are as "volatile" as the OPS says they are, maybe a counter protest is a bad idea...

We know there are feces disturbers on both sides, how easy would it be for someone will ill intent to turn it from a protest/counter-protest into a riot?


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

I would have expected the police to be more detailed on what they are doing to react to the ‘signs of guns’ they mentioned earlier….or were all those signs just pointing at the one guy they arrested at ‘The Split’ (417&174)?

Without more detail (which should be a reasonable expectation of Ottawans, at least), the earlier comments by police seem more like lobbing fear-mongering balloons for the purpose of instilling fear, but without any firm information about what is being done to protect citizens from such dangers…what is OPS waiting for them?  Wait until one of the protestors they saw with a gun, doesn’t something stupid with it and hurts someone? 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I would have expected the police to be more detailed on what they are doing to react to the ‘signs of guns’ they mentioned earlier….or were all those signs just pointing at the one guy they arrested at ‘The Split’ (417&174)?
> 
> Without more detail (which should be a reasonable expectation of Ottawans, at least), the earlier comments by police seem more like lobbing fear-mongering balloons for the purpose of instilling fear, but without any firm information about what is being done to protect citizens from such dangers…what is OPS waiting for them?  Wait until one of the protestors they saw with a gun, doesn’t something stupid with it and hurts someone? 🤷🏻‍♂️


I suspect things like CCFR/NFA swag, and decals on vehicles are part of what they are referencing with the remark "signs of guns".


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I suspect things like CCFR/NFA swag, and decals on vehicles are part of what they are referencing with the remark "signs of guns".


It could be anything.  Empty holsters, gun bags, ammo bags, slings, hunting gear, gun racks, scopes and sights, cleaning kits.

No clue though as to what he was alluding to though when he said so.   Only one gun related arrest so far.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

* 'Where is the olive branch?' Candice Bergen blasts Trudeau government's approach to Ottawa protesters*








						'Where is the olive branch?' Candice Bergen blasts Trudeau government's approach to Ottawa protesters
					

Bergen accused Deputy PM Chrystia Freeland of 'classic gaslighting' when she replied by speaking about swastikas and confederate flags at the protest




					nationalpost.com
				







> Freeland replied that her hearing was fine and she clearly heard remarks by her Liberal colleague, MP Greg Fergus, who she said explained how it feels for Black Canadians to see swastikas and confederate flags in the nation’s capital.



When pressured, play the cards you know.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Some more data on support for the protest.









						Opposition Growing to Truckers’ Protest
					

Opposition to the ongoing protests by truckers has grown since late last week. These are the findings from INNOVATIVE’s Canada This Month survey, in field from […]




					innovativeresearch.ca


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some more data on support for the protest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have it on good authority that the truckers have vast support and that 98.13 percent of Canadians polled want Trudeau to resign.


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> * 'Where is the olive branch?' Candice Bergen blasts Trudeau government's approach to Ottawa protesters*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At this stage they can't play another card, if they started talking to the protestors they would be forced to answer for their previous statements.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> At this stage they can't play another card, if they started talking to the protestors they would be forced to answer for their previous statements.


The truckers were a disorganized mess.  I ask again who were they going to talk to?  The three current voices are non starters.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> At this stage they can't play another card, if they started talking to the protestors they would be forced to answer for their previous statements.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229478578049273856
Funny you should mention that.


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Feb 2022)

"The protest is small and inconsequential.  Why don't they just roll over and die?"

"The protest is horrible and catastrophic and must end immediately."

FFS, choose one.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229478578049273856
> Funny you should mention that.


Another great example of inaction by the government.

Strangely I don't recall the police suggesting employing the military-I wonder what the difference was.


----------



## dimsum (4 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "The protest is small and inconsequential.  Why don't they just roll over and die?"
> 
> "The protest is horrible and catastrophic and must end immediately."
> 
> FFS, choose one.


Or option 3:

The protest is small in numbers, but loud in volume.  It _is_ inconsequential as it isn't changing anyone's views on the matter or driving any meaningful change.  So, it must end immediately because it's just wasting everyone's time.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Another great example of inaction by the government.
> 
> Strangely I don't recall the police suggesting employing the military-I wonder what the difference was.



The Ottawa Police Chief suggested it ...









						Ottawa police may seek military assistance as ‘Freedom Convoy’ protesters dig in
					

Canada’s capital is bracing for more demonstrators this weekend as its police chief admits his officers may need help.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The Ottawa Police Chief suggested it ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, there you have it. 

The Ottawa police chief wasn't in charge of the railway blockade.


----------



## MARS (4 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> If you currently serving in the military, you should think twice about going anywhere near either side of the protest.


To wit:





__





						Canadian Forces to investigate RCAF member who used social media to voice support of protesters
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Kilted (4 Feb 2022)

MARS said:


> To wit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's why my c-of-c sent an email around about not posting stuff on social media about the protest last night.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Another great example of inaction by the government.
> 
> Strangely I don't recall the police suggesting employing the military-I wonder what the difference was.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228108588696121344
I mean, I just find it funny how some very influential people in the CPC were very opposed to the first nations blockade but are fully supportive of the ottawa protest.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Another great example of inaction by the government.
> 
> Strangely I don't recall the police suggesting employing the military-I wonder what the difference was.


The RCMP have decades of experience dealing with aboriginal issues.   Not always good mind you.

The RCMP has as a bigger PR and PA section to call on.  

Sloly is a local police chief with his hands full.

That being said Marylyn Gladu called on the army to act back then. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/indigenous-aboriginal-rail-blockade-douglas-bland-1.5469252
		


So, as far as I can see.  The LPC wasn’t going to call I. The military then.  They appear not to be wanting to do that now.

The CPC though wanted military action then but not now.  Right.  I get that people think Trudeau is a two faced liar but the CPC is showing nothing but partisan hypocrisy and have very little to stand on in this regard.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The RCMP have decades of experience dealing with aboriginal issues.   Not always good mind you.
> 
> The RCMP has as a bigger PR and PA section to call on.
> 
> ...


Well, other than the CPC not gaslighting First Nations protesters as racist, homophobic Nazis…


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well, other than the CPC not gaslighting First Nations protesters as racist, homophobic Nazis…


True.  But No nazi flags or racist organisers there either.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228108588696121344
> I mean, I just find it funny how some very influential people in the CPC were very opposed to the first nations blockade but are fully supportive of the ottawa protest.



You're pointing out a great example of  typical politician hypocrisy.

LPC, CPC, and the rest are all cut from the same cloth when it comes to this stuff.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You're pointing out a great example of  typical politician hypocrisy.
> 
> LPC, CPC, and the rest are all cut from the same cloth when it comes to this stuff.


You're right. 

Just so long as everyone realizes they are all covered in muck and stop presenting it like it's just the LPC.


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Feb 2022)

Or option 4: the protest is inconsequential for its proximate aims, but is broadly consequential because it shifts the preference window for how people feel about things; and the longer it persists, the more the window shifts.  And that worries the people "in charge".

Government and various interested parties have deployed a lot of air and paper to try and discredit/deflate the protest, and failed.  What really scares them is loss of control of the story*.

*Tangentially: as human affairs become more complex, at some point the complexity should be expected to exceed the capabilities of the people who claim to run those affairs, and they will be reduced to simply trying to control the narrative about how well things are running.  We could be in the middle of that tipping period right now.


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Feb 2022)

The hypocrisy (tolerance for protests one supports, and intolerance for others) is expected.  I suppose conservatives could be brought around to supporting less tolerance (more law and order), including for protests whose aims they support.  But not immediately after the benchmarks  set recently (the usual, "you can't pocket your political advantage and then expect me to forego mine").


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The truckers were a disorganized mess.  I ask again who were they going to talk to?  The three current voices are non starters.


We pay MPs, and government officials big money to come up with solutions, if they can't figure out a solution to a problem that minor we are not getting our money's worth out of them. 

They could have asked for leaders to identify themselves, extended the olive branch as it were, even set up a location for the self selected leaders to meet outside of the immediate protest area. They instead went to the old reliable "they're a bunch of racists, and I won't talk to them".


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Since we are comparing this protest to the indigenous rail protest I took a read in that thread we had a few years ago. 

Some interesting arguments made then and now. 

Post in thread 'Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)'
Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)

Post in thread 'Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)'
Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)

Post in thread 'Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)'
Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> True.  But No nazi flags or racist organisers there either.


True.  Just a few other flags…and…guns.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> True.  Just a few other flags…and…guns.
> View attachment 68492View attachment 68493


Guns.  Yes.  Are you really putting that flag on par with the Nazi flag?


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> He states "lawful exercise of the Charter".  I'm not sure an illegal structure and possibly illegal fuel dump falls under that umbrella.  I haven't researched the court rulings on this aspect of the Charter, but my take is we have Freedom Expression, not 'freedom of protest'.  Can I build a  structure on somebody else's land on a normal day in July and call it expression?
> 
> Is this a hill to die on?  I'm not sure, and one person's minor offence is another person's 'hang 'em high' event.  If I had a store on Wellington and it was peacefully (because I ran out the back door in fear) occupied as a protest headquarters or warming centre, is that expression?
> 
> The nub of the argument often boils down to the old saying (sort of) that the freedom of your fist stops at my nose.   Is the shack on federal land our collective nose?


We may not have freedom of "protest" but we have freedom of peaceful assembly which covers this.

One person's minor offence could be someone else's hang em high, but to the police it's still just a bylaw.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489602087226949635
OPS stepping things up.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

And Ezra is upset.  Must mean they are on the right track.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489617121415942149


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2022)

Where was the the surge and contain strategy in Caledonia? OR when statues were torn asunder in Winnipeg?

OHHHH I am so sorry - the laws don't apply there right? 

The hypocrisy is thick in this country. And I fear for its existence.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Including Postmedia/National Post/Sun media, which have never exactly been ... boosters for Team Red? 😉


Given Bonokoski's hit piece above, I'm not sure. There was a time, not that long ago, Sun Media plugged itself as one of the few that wouldn't take grants, so I have no idea what happened. I seldom look much, seriously, at newspapers and news magazines any more. I only pay as much attention as needed in order to post an article I have an opinion on. Not doing so, is a cardinal sin around here. If you have an opinion, people yell for your source, when you give it, it's discounted because someone looks for a biased web site that says they are too far right/left. It really doesn't seem to matter who bribes who, every outlet no matter the direction, will spin the story for their advantage and to gain numbers, which means cash for shareholders. And really, truth in media runs a distant race to the competition for readership. It is all slanted to varying degrees, to a direction that will boost influence and customers. We only hear or read what we like, what makes us feel good or what meets our agenda. Instead of reasoned discussion, or just plain acceptance that someone doesn't hold your same opinion, anything outside our bubble immediately becomes fodder for scorn, derision and labels. You have to nullify and destroy counter opinion. It's a sign of our times and conditioning. We watch news makers attack each other with a zeal that would make Joan of Arc squeamish. We watch major corporations cancel small, insignificant, harmless ordinary people that do nothing more than state or stick to their belief. There's so much more to write about this point, but it won't change anything. We are creatures of the world and the influences around us. Government and big tech/media are responsible for the us v. them attitude we now hold. They treat everyone as morons and feel the need to constantly correct us and vilify those that don't fall into their edicts and demands. I mean, really, you have this great monstrosity of influence, money, politics and a bent for making the world over in his own image. Yet FarceBook will go out of it's way to come down with both feet of it's electronic near monopoly on poor Joe, who might just be a minimum wage earner doing menial tasks to get by. But Zuck will hammer the poor schmuk and throw him in FB jail because he comes home frustrated at the world around him and posts a meme he finds funny. Then  the bogus fact police and algorithms hunt him down like a prize bull that has broken through the fence.

Government and media, of all types, are responsible for our cynicism. They have to suffer the impact of the slings and arrows they gave us. When we can't turn on them, we'll turn on each other.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Where was the the surge and contain strategy in Caledonia? OR when statues were torn asunder in Winnipeg?
> 
> OHHHH I am so sorry - the laws don't apply there right?
> 
> The hypocrisy is thick in this country. And I fear for its existence.


I don’t know,  who was running the law enforcement in those areas?


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I don’t know,  who was running the law enforcement in those areas?


Does it matter? Police chiefs in this country seem to pick and choose who they want to arrest at demonstrations. 

An OPP Officer sat with protestors at a rail blockade after HE WAS ORDERED BY A JUDGE to dismantle it. 

How about that?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Does it matter? Police chiefs in this country seem to pick and choose who they want to arrest at demonstrations.
> 
> An OPP Officer sat with protestors at a rail blockade after HE WAS ORDERED BY A JUDGE to dismantle it.
> 
> How about that?


It does.  Sloly has no say on what Winnipeg police do or what the RCMP Calidonia detachment does

Is this an Ottawa Police issue or not?  If it is then it’s up to them.  

Are you not happy then that one police force is actually doing something?


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Guns.  Yes.  Are you really putting that flag on par with the Nazi flag?


No, not at all.  My point earlier was in regards to various governments that were or were not gaslighting protestors. GoC is using a Nazi flag and Confederate flags to justify its gaslighting the entire protest.  Other situations, arguably far more volitile, where actual guns were openly carried, didn’t see PMJT blanket accusing Canadian First Nations as being a dangerous, disrespectful fringe of Canadian society.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Are you not happy then that one police force is actually doing something?


…other than apparently not trying to identify Nazi flag guy, or Confederate flag guys or person-selling-Star-of-David-buttons…


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …other than apparently not trying to identify Nazi flag guy, or Confederate flag guys or person-selling-Star-of-David-buttons…


And why would the police spend any effort on that?


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It does.  Sloly has no say on what Winnipeg police do or what the RCMP Calidonia detachment does
> 
> Is this an Ottawa Police issue or not?  If it is then it’s up to them.
> 
> Are you not happy then that one police force is actually doing something?


Of course not, everyone is cheerleading. 

Get those first nations off the rails can easily morph into don't touch the truckers, as the CPC leadership has shown.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> And why would the police spend any effort on that?


Because the PM has used those actions to assert that the protesters are an illegitimate fringe of Canadian society, and for which the Ottawa Police Chief has stated an injunction is necessary to remove them, and that he sees the Army as something he would consider as necessary to clear them. 

Otherwise, it’s people honking outside of Ottawa City By-Law controlled hours for noise/disturbance and OHTA traffic violations.

But I’m glad you asked the question, because it allows a branch of critical thought:

“If carrying a Nazi or Confederate flag isn’t grounds for a police investigation (to ascertain whether such actions were against the CCC, or subordinate legislations at federal, provincial or municipal level), then why is that enough for the PM to dismiss any or all of the protesters?” 🤔


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> No, not at all.  My point earlier was in regards to various governments that were or were not gaslighting protestors. GoC is using a Nazi flag and Confederate flags to justify its gaslighting the entire protest.  Other situations, arguably far more volitile, where actual guns were openly carried, didn’t see PMJT blanket accusing Canadian First Nations as being a dangerous, disrespectful fringe of Canadian society.


Sure.


Good2Golf said:


> Because the PM has used those actions to assert that the protesters are an illegitimate fringe of Canadian society, and for which the Ottawa Police Chief has stated an injunction is necessary to remove them, and that he sees the Army as something he would consider as necessary to clear them.
> 
> Otherwise, it’s people honking outside of Ottawa City By-Law controlled hours for noise/disturbance and OHTA traffic violations.
> 
> ...


so the PM trying to make or score political points means that the police chief should take action?  

People have pointed out that one nazi Flag is not a crime.  It makes your group look like crap though, 

Nazi flags aren’t the reason for an injunction or a surge.

I’m sorry but that’s a weak argument.


----------



## mariomike (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> People have pointed out that one nazi Flag is not a crime. It makes your group look like crap though,



Nothing new about anti-Mandatism - NO, I did not say ALL anti-Mandate individuals - and Nazism.


			vaccine mandate holocaust - Google Search


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m sorry but that’s a weak argument.


Don’t feel the need to apologize for your own opinion…that’s weak.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Where was the the surge and contain strategy in Caledonia? OR when statues were torn asunder in Winnipeg?
> 
> OHHHH I am so sorry - the laws don't apply there right?
> 
> The hypocrisy is thick in this country. And I fear for its existence.


I like how people fear for the countries existence when things happen they don't like.

Meanwhile this country has survived 2 world wars, 2 ruineous global pandemics, the korean war, the quebec seperatist crisis, 2 massive global economic downturns, and countless other challenges.

But yeah, this, this will cause people to worry about the existance of Canada. Good golly.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Don’t feel the need to apologize for your own opinion…that’s weak.


Trying to keep things polite. 

I take it then if they aren’t going after nazi flag bearers (again, not sure what laws other than the law of common sense were broken) then you are upset that they are doing a contain and surge approach?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

OPINION

I'll put the tinfoil on, if nobody else will.

Does anyone seriously believe that trudeau would not support, if not start, the counter protest? There seems to already be the boogeyman coming out of his firearms stance to vilify the convoy. With all this talk of firearms, suddenly appearing, complete with the fear mongering and demonization of firearms groups like the CCFR, he's dovetailing his agendas. Searching for a lightning rod because everything else he's tried in the last week has failed to launch, to the credit of smart, thinking Canadians. His comments about a specific group of Canadians being racist, misogynist, homophobic, etc, ad nauseum, has not worked. He's still trying to make hay over the single nazi flag and the single confederate flag that were brought out, by two, unidentified provocateurs to give him talking points to vilify the protesters and using his POC MPs in Parliament to denounce all those symbols of hate that outnumbered the Canadian flags on display and were the real reason for the convoy. Simple question. Does anyone think that our government, given their record, their lies, their lost unaccounted billions of taxpayer monies, the upheld charges of ethic violations, gaslighting Canadians at every turn and their penchant for never, ever, answering a question on topic or satisfactorily and a leader who's loyalties do not extend to the country he holds in contempt. Do you not think them capable of employing Roy Epps type people or that they would not stoop to that level to achieve their aims? There is no shortage of useful idiots to go around for every party. However, this current government seems to have found the elixir to employ them as part of their ongoing strategy, while the other parties wait until one comes spinning into the room, Tasmanian Devil like, and makes themselves useful for a few days until the narrative changes. 

I'm sure there's those out there that will hold that Canada is so pure and lawful that it is impossible for this to happen and it borders on treason to even talk about it, but I hold no such delusions of humankind, especially in this day, age and political climate.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Feb 2022)

Incoming....


OTHER CONVOYS COMING​A tractor convoy is being planned from Alexandria to Ottawa on Saturday in support of the truckers, according to a Facebook group with more than 1,900 followers.

Similar convoys are allegedly being planned this weekend in Toronto and Quebec City.

“I want to be absolutely clear, I support Toronto police taking necessary action to prepare for this possible protest with a focus on doing everything they can to protect the safety of Toronto residents and businesses,” Toronto Mayor John Tory told reporters on Thursday.

Tory is planning a public update on the planned convoy protest in Toronto on Friday.

At a Wednesday briefing, Ottawa Police Service Chief Peter Sloly said the situation is “intolerable” and “unprecedented,” and that “all plans are on the table” to remove the protest: from a court injunction, to calling in the RCMP, and potentially requesting the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF).

However, in a statement emailed to CTV News late Wednesday, a spokesperson for the minister of national defence said “the Canadian Armed Forces are not involved in this situation, and there are no plans for such CAF involvement.” 









						Ottawa police to get more help from RCMP to address trucker convoy protest
					

Some of the main organizers for the 'Freedom Convoy' spoke to reporters Thursday at a press conference decrying that they had been painted as 'racists, misogynists…and even terrorists,' and that no one from the federal or provincial government had met with them.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Trying to keep things polite.


So my ‘weak’ is insulting, but your ‘weak’ is…enlightening? 🤷🏻‍♂️ 



Remius said:


> I take it then if they aren’t going after nazi flag bearers (again, not sure what laws other than the law of common sense were broken) then you are upset that they are doing a contain and surge approach?


No.  Why would I?  

The ‘contain and surge’ is in response to the conduct en-masse for numerous by-law and OHTA infractions, all examples of actually breaking the(numerous) law.  As you point out, actually carrying a Nazi or Confederate flag is not by itself illegal.  I agree with you and many others that it is inappropriate and if truly associated with a member of the protest, fair to consider it to have had an element of endorsement, but it wasn’t and didn’t.  I am not, however, going to apply the PM’s logic that that those individuals, who weren’t positively identified, represented the protest, and this justified the sweeping conclusion that the entirety of the protest represented racist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic views (those two, of which I saw no use of defaced pride or trans flags at all, so not even sure where ajar got those from, to include in his verbal tirade).


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

The Caledonia fiasco, surrender and betrayal of the Town of Caledonia was overseen by McGuinty and Fantino. Yeah, that Fantino. Harper's VAC Minister. Both were gutless POS.


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "The protest is small and inconsequential. Why don't they just roll over and die?" "The protest is horrible and catastrophic and must end immediately." FFS, choose one.



This is why the CAF can't have nice simple things such as a modern combat pistol.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Parliament Hill does not belong to Ottawa.

It belongs to ALL Canadians.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Trying to keep things polite.
> 
> 
> Remius said:
> ...


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Ottawa police to get more help from RCMP to address trucker convoy protest
> 
> 
> Some of the main organizers for the 'Freedom Convoy' spoke to reporters Thursday at a press conference decrying that they had been painted as 'racists, misogynists…and even terrorists,' and that no one from the federal or provincial government had met with them.
> ...




Government trying to portray itself as taking responsible action?  Minister Mendicino contradicts himself in official statement:



> *“I am able to confirm that the RCMP [of which he is the responsible Minister] has approved all the additional resources that were requested*, and they will be ready to assist the Ottawa Police Service, who are the police of jurisdiction,” he tweeted.


…followed immediately by…


> “This request is in addition to RCMP resources and support already in place since the arrival of the convoy in Ottawa. *It is important to underline that these are operational decisions taken by the police, independent of the government.*”



Uh-oh!!! The nations police are operating independent of the government!


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> OPINION
> 
> I'll put the tinfoil on...


Do you ever take it off?


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Parliament Hill does not belong to Ottawa.
> 
> It belongs to ALL Canadians.


Does it also belong to those in Ottawa who want the convoy to bugger off?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Nah, anyone putting on tinfoil hats is just making things look more bizarre.


Good2Golf said:


> So my ‘weak’ is insulting, but your ‘weak’ is…enlightening? 🤷🏻‍♂️
> 
> 
> No.  Why would I?
> ...


Where did I say that?  You assumed I said sorry because I was appoligising for my opinion.  Note I said the argument was weak,  you actually said I was weak.   But you completing side stepped everything by bringing up Trudeau and a Nazi flag. 

My question was to Oldsoldier who wanted to know why other police forces didn’t do the same thing.  We aren’t dealing other police forces and their response.  It’s OPS.  Trudeau has no say in how OPS a operates within the city of Ottawa.    So how Trudeau or a non criminal flag bearer factors into why OPS is doing what it is doing is somewhat of a weak link to make despite the overall theme of this whole thing.  

So I’m not sure what your argument in relation to that is.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Does it also belong to those in Ottawa who want the convoy to bugger off?


centertown belongs to centertown.  They want them gone. These guys aren’t just on parliament hill.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Nah, anyone putting on tinfoil hats is just making things look more bizarre.
> 
> Where did I say that?  You assumed I said sorry because I was appoligising for my opinion.  Note I said the argument was weak,  you actually said I was weak.   But you completing side stepped everything by bringing up Trudeau and a Nazi flag.
> 
> ...


Trudeau Derangement Syndrome is terrible condition.


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I like how people fear for the countries existence when things happen they don't like.
> 
> Meanwhile this country has survived 2 world wars, 2 ruineous global pandemics, the korean war, the quebec seperatist crisis, 2 massive global economic downturns, and countless other challenges.
> 
> But yeah, this, this will cause people to worry about the existance of Canada. Good golly.


Ah... the old "it's never happened before, it can't happen now". I'm sure that kind of thinking has comforted many a person right up until the "it" finally does happen. 

I don't think for a second these protests will bring down Canada, but the division between East and West, as well as Urban and Rural is growing. It may be spart politics right now to keep pushing that divide, but what happens when the divide hasn't been mended, and something else comes along to drive another wedge? 

It's a silly, and dangerous game to play, but neither side seems willing to admit it, or back down.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> ... The nations police are operating independent of the government!


Just a wee bit of a stretch ... I'm happy to defer to LEO's who have forgotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I'll ever know about this (and, as always, stand to be corrected), but having police approve _operational_ decisions (first quote) without the government _directing_ operational decisions is generally pretty standard practice.

Or do we want governments to tell cops exactly how to do their jobs at a tactical/front-line level?


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> We aren’t dealing other police forces and their response.  It’s OPS.  Trudeau has no say in how OPS a operates within the city of Ottawa.    So how Trudeau or a non criminal flag bearer factors into why OPS is doing what it is doing is somewhat of a weak link to make despite the overall theme of this whole thing.


So we agree that Trudeau should stop inviting broad-brush crimination commentary until OPS has resolved the situation?


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ah... the old "it's never happened before, it can't happen now". I'm sure that kind of thinking has comforted many a person right up until the "it" finally does happen.


How about the old, if the country could survive all of that, then this is next to nothing?


Furniture said:


> I don't think for a second these protests will bring down Canada, but the division between East and West, as well as Urban and Rural is growing. It may be spart politics right now to keep pushing that divide, but what happens when the divide hasn't been mended, and something else comes along to drive another wedge?


Its funny, because rural, western Coutts wants the truckers to GTFO as well. As does the Alberta Premier. 

Look at those truckers, bridging the east west, rural urban divide. 


Furniture said:


> It's a silly, and dangerous game to play, but neither side seems willing to admit it, or back down.


Well, probably due to not wanting to encourage protestors that occupying cities is the way to get a direct audience with the PM.


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> How about the old, if the country could survive all of that, then this is next to nothing?
> 
> Its funny, because rural, western Coutts wants the truckers to GTFO as well. As does the Alberta Premier.
> 
> ...


You're right, there is no East/West divide, or Urban/Rural divide... my mistake.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Feb 2022)

Attention all, we have given this thread a lot more latitude then normal as we understand it's quite the touchy subject, and compared to most social platforms it's been fairly tame.   Having said that the personal attacks need to be reined in, attack the argument, not the poster.

All the Mods would like to thank the forum for keeping this mostly civil and hope that we can still pretty much stay "hands off" for more discussion.

Thank you,
Bruce


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're right, there is no East/West divide, or Urban/Rural divide... my mistake.


There certainly is, as our elections have shown, the CPC still cannot win in Urban Canada.

I just don't think that the this protest is a sign of that.

Coutts is rural, coutts is west, Coutts doesn't want the truckers any more than Ottawa.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So we agree that Trudeau should stop inviting broad-brush crimination commentary until OPS has resolved the situation?


Absolutely.  I don’t defend those words or how he’s handled it.  I’m likely in the same 53% that isn’t happy with his handling of it. 

I don’t think he should be meeting with the current leadership of this mess but I also think he should measure his language a lot more.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Removed as requested


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Well, that's just your regular modus operandi isn't it. Just like I spoke about in my post on the press. I tried to open a dialogue, you don't like my opinion so you go right to the ad hominems. You should apply to Zuckerberg for a job.
> 
> Being a jerk doesn't make any person right or smart, it more a sign of a weak intellect unable to form a coherent response.
> 
> You're wasting my time with your childish, immature taunts. I think Miss Sally is looking for you.


What are you going on about? 

I wasn't addressing you, I was addressing Remius, and Remius was addressing G2G.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I like how people fear for the countries existence when things happen they don't like.
> 
> Meanwhile this country has survived 2 world wars, 2 ruineous global pandemics, the korean war, the quebec seperatist crisis, 2 massive global economic downturns, and countless other challenges.
> 
> But yeah, this, this will cause people to worry about the existance of Canada. Good golly.


Maybe you don't study history - the fall always comes from with in.

Your inference is noted and as always you refuse to see another point of view. When the police only enforce the law when its convenient should be a warning sign for us all.

Caledonia. Winnipeg. Railways blockaded. Pipelines blockaded. Get my drift?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Just an FYI.  While the crowd is predominately a certain demographic that does not mean it’s all that demographic.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Maybe you don't study history - the fall always comes from with in.


I do study history. Falls do tend to come from within, but seriously, this as a catalyst? Really? This country survived millions of Quebecers wanting to leave, world wars with tens of thousands of dead, and countless other more trying times. 

Yet a protest that managed to get less people than what you can fit in the Bell Centre in Montreal is what makes people worried about the survival of this country? 

We just had 17 million people vote, I think that's more reflective of the state of the nation. 


OldSolduer said:


> Your inference is noted and as always you refuse to see another point of view. When the police only enforce the law when its convenient should be a warning sign for us all.
> 
> Caledonia. Winnipeg. Railways blockaded. Pipelines blockaded. Get my drift?


Each police force does what it feels is right. How they react to things is up to them. And Canada will get through this just fine.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Each police force does what it feels is right. How they react to things is up to them. And Canada will get through this just fine.


Not lately if you can read past the headlines. Never mind - you have your own point of view and we don't share it.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Not lately if you can read past the headlines. Never mind - you have your own point of view and we don't share it.




O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all of us command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Sorry, had the urge to get all patriotic and believe our country is not on the verge of falling apart based on the protest of a few thousand people on Parliament hill in trucks.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Doug Ford just called this an occupation and has to end.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Doug Ford just called this an occupation and has to end.


East-west, Rural-Urban, Left-Right, the truckers are bringing everyone together to say move on. 

Brings a tear to the eye.


----------



## Kilted (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Of course not, everyone is cheerleading.
> 
> Get those first nations off the rails can easily morph into don't touch the truckers, as the CPC leadership has shown.


I think it is more trying to make it JT problem than actually supporting the protest.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I think it is more trying to make it JT problem than actually supporting the protest.


That would be cynical.


----------



## mariomike (4 Feb 2022)

Nice work by the OPP.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489388865202839556

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489380349910077442


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> How about the old, if the country could survive all of that, then this is next to nothing?
> 
> Its funny, because rural, western Coutts wants the truckers to GTFO as well. As does the Alberta Premier.
> 
> ...


That was just like watching the liberals in Question Period. Lots of word salad and deflection, but no real, substantial answers to the questions.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> That was just like watching the liberals in Question Period. Lots of word salad and deflection, but no real, substantial answers to the questions.


There is a reason it is called question period instead of answer period.


----------



## lenaitch (4 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Does it matter? Police chiefs in this country seem to pick and choose who they want to arrest at demonstrations.
> 
> An OPP Officer sat with protestors at a rail blockade after HE WAS ORDERED BY A JUDGE to dismantle it.
> 
> How about that?


"He" was not ordered to dismantle the blockade, the OPP was.  "He" was a member of the Provincial Liason Team, which was formed in response to  the Ipperwash Inquiry, as a means to attempt to defuse such systems involving aboriginal protestors.  "He" was doing his job.

The OPP, in particular, is absolutely terrified of appearing to incite violence with aboriginal protestors after the death in Ipperwash.  A little too far in my opinion in some cases, but nobody wants someone to die over inconvenience or financial loss.  Courts can issue injunctions but it is up to the police to determine how and when they are exercised to ensure public safety.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Guns.  Yes.  Are you really putting that flag on par with the Nazi flag?


I've been threatened to have my head blown off with an AK47 by someone brandishing one of those symbols. I've seen other people terrorized relentlessly. Lacrosse balls to the head and back as they walked down school hallways. Victims got accused of instigating the behavior when they brought it forward. Warrior culture indeed. 
But no, not on par.



Remius said:


> Trying to keep things polite.
> 
> I take it then if they aren’t going after nazi flag bearers (again, not sure what laws other than the law of common sense were broken) then you are upset that they are doing a contain and surge approach?


I'm in the unpopular camp that the flag should be banned and displaying it should be considered a hate crime.  Could the symbol here not fall under "hate propaganda"? You throw a Nazi flag up and it's pretty obvious what ideology you're supporting.

What about the USSR flag? Well Russia hasn't seen fit to ban it, but Germany has the swastika.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Just a wee bit of a stretch ... I'm happy to defer to LEO's who have forgotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I'll ever know about this (and, as always, stand to be corrected), but having police approve _operational_ decisions (first quote) without the government _directing_ operational decisions is generally pretty standard practice.
> 
> Or do we want governments to tell cops exactly how to do their jobs at a tactical/front-line level?


Forgot to add the OMG emoji… 😱 

I do not factually believe that the RCMP are operating outside of their chain-of-command, but then I ask…and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask…why then did Minister Mendicino feel so compelled to be the announcer of what the RCMP was supporting OPERATIONALLY to OPS, yet at the same time GO TO THE LENGTH of qualifying that such action was INDEPENDENT OF GOVERNMENT (which is a rather specific phrasing)?

Perhaps if: 

1) OPS Chief Sloly had, at the operational level, made a statement that the RCMP was supporting OPS operationally; and 

2) Minister Mendicino had just remained quiet on the issue, vice going on about how what was happening under his responsibility was, and I QUOTE him, “important to underline that these are operational decisions taken by the police, _independent_ of the government.”

…then Mendocino’s statement would see much less like a…


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I've been threatened to have my head blown off with an AK47 by someone brandishing one of those symbols. I've seen other people terrorized relentlessly. Lacrosse balls to the head and back as they walked down school hallways. Victims got accused of instigating the behavior when they brought it forward. Warrior culture indeed.
> But no, not on par.


Not my aircraft, but a sister squadron’s aircraft returned to base with .50 holes in the tail boom after flying over an area where several such flags were flying, but I don’t take that as justification to judge all indigenous peoples associated with the Mowhawk warrior’s flag to be attempted murderers.


Jarnhamar said:


> I'm in the unpopular camp that the flag should be banned and displaying it should be considered a hate crime.  Could the symbol here not fall under "hate propaganda"? You throw a Nazi flag up and it's pretty obvious what ideology you're supporting.


The Nazi flag is such a vile, known symbol, that outside of seeing it published in academic material, I would have no issue seeing it banned from public display as it serves no purpose other than to incite.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I've been threatened to have my head blown off with an AK47 by someone brandishing one of those symbols. I've seen other people terrorized relentlessly. Lacrosse balls to the head and back as they walked down school hallways. Victims got accused of instigating the behavior when they brought it forward. Warrior culture indeed.
> But no, not on par.
> 
> 
> ...


I’d don’t disagree. But right now it isn’t illegal.  If it does become like hate propaganda I would support that.  With the usual caveats of historical or artistic exceptions.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Forgot to add the OMG emoji… 😱


Good one!


Good2Golf said:


> Perhaps if:
> 
> 1) OPS Chief Sloly had, at the operational level, made a statement that the RCMP was supporting OPS operationally; and
> 
> 2) Minister Mendicino had just remained quiet on the issue, vice going on about how what was happening under his responsibility was, and I QUOTE him, “important to underline that these are operational decisions taken by the police, _independent_ of the government.” ...


... or he was maybe heading off those who would accuse the government of directly ordering police to clamp down, dictator style?  Or is that going to be muttered no matter what he says?


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489380349910077442



Could this be pursued reasonably as uttering a threat (CCC s.264)?






						Criminal Code
					

Federal laws of Canada




					laws-lois.justice.gc.ca


----------



## MARS (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> OPINION
> 
> I'll put the tinfoil on, if nobody else will.
> 
> ...


I mean...other than the lunacy of suggesting that the PM  would "start" the counter protest, which is tin foil hat territory....EVERYTHING you wrote is quite simply good and highly effective _politics.  _

Politics can be quite distatesteful, often unfair, even mean,  always rough, tumble, and bruising and too often gets in the way of good policy making....but it is an integral part of our political system. And it isn't new either. 

 I honestly can't imagine any other Canadian political party acting any different if they were in power, facing what this government has. 

I mean...everything you wrote is simply the JIPB/JIPOE from the Operational Planning Process.  The fucking CAF _*formally*_ _*taught*_ me to think, and advise my Commander to act, in just the way you described above.  Nothing tinfoil hat about it.  Simply an effective IO campaign.  This isn't rocket surgery.


----------



## lenaitch (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Forgot to add the OMG emoji… 😱
> 
> I do not factually believe that the RCMP are operating outside of their chain-of-command, but then I ask…and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask…why then did Minister Mendicino feel so compelled to be the announcer of what the RCMP was supporting OPERATIONALLY to OPS, yet at the same time GO TO THE LENGTH of qualifying that such action was INDEPENDENT OF GOVERNMENT (which is a rather specific phrasing)?
> 
> ...


I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is emphasizing to the public (and probably a lot of media) that a minister of the Crown cannot give operational direction to the police.

I see this action as nothing more than one police service asking for operational assistance from another, which happens all the time.  At the beginning of this thing, I saw Toronto members in Ottawa.  Ottawa PS doesn't have a lot of options; the OPP would require time to assemble a decent number of  members from across the province (although I'd be surprised if their eastern Ontario specialty teams aren't involved) and the vast majority of Quebec police officers have no authority outside of their province.   I don't know the numbers of RCMP members in the NCR but I imagine it is substantial, possibly many coming from their headquarters.  If it is anything like the headquarters I worked in, the call-up will be followed by a run on stores by members who can't find/don't fit/don't remember how to wear their field kit, accompanied by a lot of whining.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Another Team Blue player says "sum up!"








						Time for Ottawa protesters to 'move on,' Melillo says
					

Read the full story and comment on Tbnewswatch.com




					www.tbnewswatch.com


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Senator Patterson leaves Conservative caucus in protest: media report
					

February 4, 2022 - Nunavut Senator Dennis Patterson has chosen to exit the Conservative caucus due to a disagreement over support that some of his colleagues have shown for the “Freedom Convoy” truckers protest in Ottawa, according to a report from the Ottawa-based Hill Times news outlet....




					www.nnsl.com


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Fortress Quebec blocking trucks from getting in apparently.  They let in three or four but blocked off access.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Fortress Quebec blocking trucks from getting in apparently.  They let in three or four but blocked off access.



Ice fortifications made from frozen boxed wine.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ice fortifications made from frozen boxed wine.


Lol.  From what I saw they parked 4 garbage trucks at a key road.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> We just had 17 million people vote, I think that's more reflective of the state of the nation.


Oh you!



Did all those 17million people vote for the current government?  It sounds like you were implying that.

Dr. Statistics points out that only 5,556,629 of those 17,000,000 Canadians voted for “how things are being done.”


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Oh you!
> 
> View attachment 68504
> 
> ...


Am i not supposed to be on ignore?

Can you go back to ignoring me please?


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Fortress Quebec blocking trucks from getting in apparently.  They let in three or four but blocked off access.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Lawsuit filed against convoy organizers, seeking damages on behalf of downtown Ottawa residents
					

Organizers of the 'Freedom Convoy' that has gridlocked downtown Ottawa for the last week are facing a potential $9.8-million class-action lawsuit over continuous vehicle horn noise, filed on behalf of residents of the city's downtown core.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Lawsuit filed against convoy organizers, seeking damages on behalf of downtown Ottawa residents
> 
> 
> Organizers of the 'Freedom Convoy' that has gridlocked downtown Ottawa for the last week are facing a potential $9.8-million class-action lawsuit over continuous vehicle horn noise, filed on behalf of residents of the city's downtown core.
> ...


Look at that. Trudeau cau sit down with the 4 people named in the lawsuit as organizers.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Look at that. Trudeau cau sit down with the 4 people named in the lawsuit as organizers.


I’ve explained why meeting those people will yield nothing and isn’t a good idea.


----------



## Kilted (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Lol.  From what I saw they parked 4 garbage trucks at a key road.


Look at that, for the first time in a while, city walls actually have a part to play.


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’ve explained why meeting those people will yield nothing and isn’t a good idea.


Ignoring them certainly has worked well, why change course now...


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

And funding cut…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489739317874413573


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Lawsuit filed against convoy organizers, seeking damages on behalf of downtown Ottawa residents
> 
> 
> Organizers of the 'Freedom Convoy' that has gridlocked downtown Ottawa for the last week are facing a potential $9.8-million class-action lawsuit over continuous vehicle horn noise, filed on behalf of residents of the city's downtown core.
> ...



Has that ever been done before ?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ignoring them certainly has worked well, why change course now...


Ignoring Pat King and company?  You do know his background right?  Why legitimize that.  This isn’t a trucker thing anymore.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Has that ever been done before ?


Not sure.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure.



Scary precedence to set.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Has that ever been done before ?


The only thing I can think of is the lawsuit in the US against the Jan 6th organisers.  But I’m unsure if we have similar precedence in Canada.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Scary precedence to set.


One expert weighed in a few days ago about businesses looking to file a suit.  This is a bit different as it’s a class action on behalf of residents.  I note what he says about the length of the protest possibly being a thing that could be a factor.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

But it looks like the go fund money won’t be a source of compensation since it’s been shut down.


----------



## Furniture (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ignoring Pat King and company?  You do know his background right?  Why legitimize that.  This isn’t a trucker thing anymore.


It isn't a trucker thing anymore... It wasn't by the time it hit Ottawa. It appears to be growing though, which might have been stopped if people in authority, and the media hadn't pretended it was just a racist trucker thing. If they had made any attempt at all to let people know they were sympathetic to their frustrations, and that they would look into ways to alleviate restrictions as they could, it could have pretty easily taken some of the wind out of the protest sails.

Dr. Tam has already come out and said we need to adjust to an endemic COVID world, I suspect she would have been advising the government of that at the time this kicked off as well. So why did the government choose to play nasty politics, when they could have been the peacemakers?

If it was just about racist truckers, why would farmers be going to Toronto? Unless now truckers, _and _farmers are racist...

To be clear, I'm not really in favour of the protests, despite arguing against the way they have been handled.

Edit: I'm also not really against it... I kind of don't care one way or another.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Feb 2022)

Like an OC's hour when the OC puts their notebook away and crossed their arms eh

Trudeau meeting people would:

1. Stop him from looking like a hypocrite on the world stage (See India Farmer protests)

2. Give Canadian citizens a chance to be heard (See We see you / We hear you mantra)

3. Give the protestor leadership an opportunity to put their foots in their mouth and possibly loose support and steam when moderates want to distance themselves with the movement.


Farmer's are apparently joining now. Who's next?  Unless you don't think there's anyone else in the country who feels ostracized.


Personally I can't stand protestors blocking citizens from going where they want. At all. I would take someone sitting outside of my house blaring a horn a lot less stotically than Ottawa residents are. 

But the government played a big part in what brought this to pass, pretending it will go away probably won't end how they think.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

I’ve been fairly consistant about Trudeau meeting with those three.  My response was to Jarnhammer suggesting that is who he can meet.   If the organisers were not racists or made racist statements it would have been harder to paint them as such.  Unfortunately guilt by association and failure to disavow has led to the narrative being lost.

I said this a while ago.  They lost the narrative.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (4 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Scary precedence to set.



How is it scary?  Since there hasn't been a ruling yet there has been no precedent arising from this incident.  As for individual citizens or businesses (particularly businesses) filing applications for injunctions against and subsequently seeking damages from protesters, it's been done before, most notably against logging protestors in BC.  The injunctions and claims for damages have not always been successful.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Like an OC's hour when the OC puts their notebook away and crossed their arms eh
> 
> Trudeau meeting people would:
> 
> ...


Maybe put away the fuck Trudeau signs and stop asking to have the government dissolved.  That might be a good first step.  Middle ground is not something being offered by any side.


----------



## Quirky (4 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Farmer's are apparently joining now. Who's next?  Unless you don't think there's anyone else in the country who feels ostracized.



At this point this is just hilarious and can only go south, the stand offs of the stupid is only escalading into a prolonged mess. This is all nicely contributing to whatever is destructive to Confederation, which is a good thing sitting from my chair in the West. Just get rid of all restrictions like the demonstrators want and when the sixth wave comes we can all point at the real problem - our crappy healthcare system. It's a bad idea implemented poorly.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> And funding cut…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489739317874413573


Gofundme is cutting their throat, If they received any financial benefit from holding the money I hope they get sued. My guess is your going to see a non-partisan version of gofundme start up. I hope all those people who donated start hounding them.


----------



## Kilted (4 Feb 2022)

Well there are a few people I think who spent a lot of money who are not going to be reimbursed now.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Well there are a few people I think who spent a lot of money who are not going to be reimbursed now.


I’m pretty sure money can be returned but not sure how that works.  I could be wrong.


----------



## Kilted (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m pretty sure money can be returned but not sure how that works.  I could be wrong.


I mean the actual people who were ext to get the money.


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

GoFundMe stated in the PR the money would go to credible established charities.

Imagine if the Trudeau Foundation got some of this? I’d die laughing so hard 🤣 I don’t know if I could take that kind of irony.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> GoFundMe stated in the PR the money would go to credible established charities.
> 
> Imagine if the Trudeau Foundation got some of this? I’d die laughing so hard 🤣 I don’t know if I could take that kind of irony.


WE Charity…

We jest, but… 🤔


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Gofundme is cutting their throat, If they received any financial benefit from holding the money I hope they get sued. My guess is your going to see a non-partisan version of gofundme start up. I hope all those people who donated start hounding them.


From their website.


We now have evidence from law enforcement that the previously peaceful demonstration has become an occupation, with police reports of violence and other unlawful activity.
Everyone has been saying that they had made their point.  Move on.  They turned this into an occupation by staying this long.

I wonder how many other groups they stopped hosting and after effects of said action.


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> WE Charity…
> 
> We jest, but… 🤔


… 🤨… this could happen absolutely… This is where things are at.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I mean the actual people who were ext to get the money.


Oh sorry,  yeah I see what you mean.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

GoFundMe's statement (text also attached) says this ....


> ... Given how this situation has evolved, no further funds will be directly distributed to the Freedom Convoy organizers —* we will work with organizers to send all remaining funds to credible and established charities chosen by the Freedom Convoy 2022 organizers and verified by GoFundMe*.
> 
> All donors may submit a request for a full refund until February 19th, 2022 using this dedicated refund form.





Jarnhamar said:


> ... Trudeau meeting people would:
> 
> 1. Stop him from looking like a hypocrite on the world stage (See India Farmer protests)
> 
> ...


I've asked before on this thread, but nobody answered:  if a negotiation is supposed to be 1)  a win-win (at least feel for all sides), and 2)  reaching an end state where everyone may not have gotten _everything_ they wanted, how willing would the protest leadership be to meet closer in the middle? 

Maybe "we want all mandates, national and provincial, removed" is a starting bargaining position, but that's just as far end a statement as suggesting EVERYONE involved is a nut case, so ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> GoFundMe's statement (text also attached) says this ....
> 
> 
> I've asked before on this thread, but nobody answered:  if a negotiation is supposed to be 1)  a win-win (at least feel for all sides), and 2)  reaching an end state where everyone may not have gotten _everything_ they wanted, *how willing would the protest leadership be to meet closer in the middle*?
> ...



That's one of the issues, I believe.

Ironically, when you're a group of anarchists it's tough to elect a leader that everyone will follow


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If he’s doing it as a private citizen?


Read the CANFORGEN issued today.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Read the CANFORGEN issued today.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Read the CANFORGEN issued today.


Haven’t seen it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> From their website.
> 
> 
> We now have evidence from law enforcement that the previously peaceful demonstration has become an occupation, with police reports of violence and other unlawful activity.
> ...


From Wiki
_In June 2019 GoFundMe terminated a $3 million fund raising for an Australian rugby player, Israel Folau, to finance a court case to appeal his multi-million dollar dismissal. He had quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 on social media, which was said to be homophobic.[27] An alternative fundraising site was set up by the Australian Christian Lobby with the public donating $2 million in 24 hours.[28]

In January 2022, GoFundMe refused to release the CA$5 million funds raised for Freedom Convoy 2022. A company spokesperson said they paused the campaign in order to give organizers time to plan the distribution of funds.__[29]_

Return the money to the donors or allow it to continue, the claims of violence as an intent of the protest is weak.


----------



## Altair (4 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> From Wiki
> _In June 2019 GoFundMe terminated a $3 million fund raising for an Australian rugby player, Israel Folau, to finance a court case to appeal his multi-million dollar dismissal. He had quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 on social media, which was said to be homophobic.[27] An alternative fundraising site was set up by the Australian Christian Lobby with the public donating $2 million in 24 hours.[28]
> 
> In January 2022, GoFundMe refused to release the CA$5 million funds raised for Freedom Convoy 2022. A company spokesperson said they paused the campaign in order to give organizers time to plan the distribution of funds.__[29]_
> ...


I heard that the convoy organizers were planning to give any money left over to a veterans charity, that would be a better idea than giving the money back. 

That said, donors can get a refund if they want it.

But with the way the convoy has been running its show, this was the only possible outcome. Otherwise gofundme is liable for whatever goes down.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Feb 2022)

Trucks inbound to Victoria for the weekend, maybe longer:

Organizers of weekend convoy protest at B.C. Legislature planning for extended stay​
Organizers of an upcoming weekend protest at the B.C. Legislature in support of an ongoing truck convoy demonstration in Ottawa are planning on staying for days, possibly until “mandates are lifted,” CHEK News has learned.

In an exchange on Zello, a “walkie-talkie” style app that has been a primary source of communication for truck convoy protesters, a woman appearing to be an organizer of the rally said plans are being made for the event to last for days, with a “base camp” similar to Ottawa.
The organizer, “Tee Kay 2022” said organizers are working with Victoria police and permitting officials to allow for barbecues or food trucks on site.

“The VicPD are aware that the truckers are coming in and want to be down there and you know, obviously keep traffic lanes open for emergencies but that they want to come and park and stay,” she said.

The organizer also indicated protesters are looking for help from non-profits to find food for participants. CHEK News has reached out to Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps and Victoria Police Department for comment. VicPD has confirmed that it has been in contact with protective staff at the B.C. Legislature.

Public Safety Minister and Solicitor General Mike Farnworth released a statement in advance of the legislature protest saying that the public’s right to peaceful protest will be respected , but unlawful conduct will not be tolerated.









						Organizers of weekend convoy protest at B.C. Legislature planning for extended stay
					

Victoria's mayor is asking people taking part in another planned truck convoy protest to respect the city following reports that some vandalized signs, used racist language and violated public health orders during the last protest.




					www.cheknews.ca


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

I’m see reports the Ottawa mayor appealed to GoFundMe


----------



## Kilted (4 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Read the CANFORGEN issued today.


It's not on the app.


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

Every single seemingly shady thing that happens will galvanize these people at these protests. The majority are not violent and will view the GoFundMe seizure and reasons for same as just another example of why they are there.

edit: GiveSendGo might be stepping up now.


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> It's not on the app.


JAG review was prob like “hold up you can’t say that!”


----------



## Blackadder1916 (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> . . . a starting bargaining position, . . .



One of the first rules of bargaining is to only negotiate with someone who can ensure enforcement of the agreement that is eventually reached.  By what authority (moral, legal, personality, . . .?) would any of the so called organizers of the protest be able to impose acceptance of any agreement short of their already ridiculous demands.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> It's not on the app.


It reminds all CAF members of their requirement under the DAOD on Conflict of Interest to remain politically neutral.


----------



## Quirky (4 Feb 2022)

Mandatory Conflict of Interest DLN/GCCampus course incoming. Everyone is guilty until educated innocent.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> One of the first rules of bargaining is to only negotiate with someone who can ensure enforcement of the agreement that is eventually reached.  By what authority (moral, legal, personality, . . .?) would any of the so called organizers of the protest be able to impose acceptance of any agreement short of their already ridiculous demands.


That's one of my questions, too -- are they going to make the feds tell all the provinces & territories, "hey, no more measures - even though it's your call"?  Oh, wait - that would be dictatorial telling provinces what to do ...


QV said:


> edit: GiveSendGo might be stepping up now.


There's a page earmarked there, but just getting this as of this post ...


----------



## lenaitch (4 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Has that ever been done before ?


I see it somewhat similar to a noisy neighbour who ruins the enjoyment of your property - only writ large.  Whether they can make their case, and whether they can get it certified as a class action, remain to be seen.  The burden of proof in civil matters is lower than criminal but they still have to establish a nexus between the defendants and the harms claimed.


Remius said:


> I’m pretty sure money can be returned but not sure how that works.  I could be wrong.


Here is their page on fees.  It doesn't say anything about returned funds.  There would still be a processing charge by whatever platform they use; it remains to be seen whether they would eat that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’ve explained why meeting those people will yield nothing and isn’t a good idea.


Being a leader means doing the hard, distasteful stuff before the easy shit. It is amateurish to demean and label people as racist, misogynous, etc, without even looking them in the eye. No matter how much he despises them. He is supposed to be the leader of all Canadians. A simple meeting behind closed doors may have saved a lot of angst and conflict. Whether they agreed or not. He holds meetings with terrorists (kahdr) and wife beaters (boyle) but can't make time for concerned Canadians. I think he made a big mistake vilifiing and disenfranchising his fellow countrymen. No good will come of it. It may end the convoy in Ottawa, but it is not going to end people's resolve. It probably hardened it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Am i not supposed to be on ignore?
> 
> Can you go back to ignoring me please?


Still doing Question Period?


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Being a leader means doing the hard, distasteful stuff before the easy shit. It is amateurish to demean and label people as racist, misogynous, etc, without even looking them in the eye. No matter how much he despises them. He is supposed to be the leader of all Canadians. A simple meeting behind closed doors may have saved a lot of angst and conflict. Whether they agreed or not. He holds meetings with terrorists (kahdr) and wife beaters (boyle) but can't make time for concerned Canadians. I think he made a big mistake vilifiing and disenfranchising his fellow countrymen. No good will come of it. It may end the convoy in Ottawa, but it is not going to end people's resolve. It probably hardened it.


Have any Conservatives met with any of the organisers?  Lich and company? 

They haven’t.  And they won’t either.


----------



## Underway (4 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> It reminds all CAF members of their requirement under the DAOD on Conflict of Interest to remain politically neutral.


I got an email saying go into work in civilians because of potential conflict with the protestors, to not engage with protestors and to basically mind my own business.

This was framed however not as political but entirely as ensuring that CAF members are safe, don't get antagonized, and don't get caught in the crossfire between law enforcement, protestors and/or counter protests.

So the only solution I see was to just work from home!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> And funding cut…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489739317874413573


Rightly or wrongly there is going to be $9,000,000 worth of people that are going to feel their donations were stolen by the system.

If they stick to the original plan, the only ones that are going to come out of this unscathed are the Veteran's groups that receive the donations.


----------



## Remius (4 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Rightly or wrongly there is going to be $9,000,000 worth of people that are going to feel their donations were stolen by the system.
> 
> If they stick to the original plan, the only ones that are going to come out of this unscathed are the Veteran's groups that receive the donations.


People can get their money back. If they don’t then it goes to charity.


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

So Gerald Butts just called this an insurrection on Twitter, saying “you shouldn’t be able to anonymously crowdsource an insurrection in democracies.”


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> That's one of my questions, too -- are they going to make the feds tell all the provinces & territories, "hey, no more measures - even though it's your call"?  Oh, wait - that would be dictatorial telling provinces what to do ...
> 
> There's a page earmarked there, but just getting this as of this post ...
> View attachment 68509


Probably crashing.

edit: it worked. Already at 169,000. Goal is 16M


----------



## QV (4 Feb 2022)

Elon Musk pointing out the double standard of GoFundMe handling the funds for CHOP, Capital Hill Occupied Protest.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489798660561018886


----------



## Furniture (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Have any Conservatives met with any of the organisers?  Lich and company?
> 
> They haven’t.  And they won’t either.


Nope, but they met with protesters, and they even managed to call out the racist, and violent elements without smearing the whole group of protesters. 

It was covered a few pages back if you wish to refresh your memory.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489623456442466308


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Elon Musk pointing out the double standard of GoFundMe handling the funds for CHOP, Capital Hill Occupied Protest.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489798660561018886



Capitol Hill Occupied Protest. That's the one that stormed a police station, occupied it and trashed it? And set up a defensive position and occupied a few city blocks? 

Sounds peaceful to me.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Feb 2022)

> Some interesting arguments made then and now.



I was all for enforcement.  But apparently strict application is not how things are done, and there are some compelling reasons why.  So we have less confrontational customary practices.  But did I miss a collective Canadian 180 at some point?  Talk and some tolerance are no longer in fashion, and we're going to have strict enforcement now?


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Feb 2022)

Be a shame if occupation is no longer permitted.  All those wonderful traditions like sit-ins and occupying administration buildings...


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Feb 2022)

A "Christian" crowdfunding site.  Why am I not surprised.  

PayPal cuts ties with Christian crowdfunding site 'GiveSendGo' after it raised money for the legal defenses of Proud Boys members and pro-Trump rioters arrested after storming the Capitol


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I was all for enforcement.  But apparently strict application is not how things are done, and there are some compelling reasons why.  So we have less confrontational customary practices.  But did I miss a collective Canadian 180 at some point?  Talk and some tolerance are no longer in fashion, and we're going to have strict enforcement now?


If enforcement was strict, this current protest turned occupation would have been ended before it started.

Day 1.  No permit.  Set up illegally in a variety of places.
Day 2.  Still allowed to remain despite being set up illegally
Days 3 to 5.  Same thing.  Despite being set up illegally and evolving from protest to occupation.

Seems pretty tolerant.  

In 2020 the OPS ended a BLM sit in protest blocking a key public intersection.  They arrested them at 3:30 am.  That was after 3 days.

So this is hardly strict enforcement and some move to a police state.

As stated by many, when it becomes an occupation it’s time to end it.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile in Nova Scotia









						N.S. announces new order banning blockades of provincial highways, roads and streets
					

Nova Scotia has announced a directive under the Emergency Management Act Friday that prohibits protesters from blocking or disrupting traffic on any road, street or highway.




					atlantic.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Meanwhile in Nova Scotia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By an old school PC Government


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> A "Christian" crowdfunding site.  Why am I not surprised.



Because you believe everyone deserves the right to be afforded a decent legal defense.





Remius said:


> In 2020 the OPS ended a BLM sit in protest blocking a key public intersection.  They arrested them at 3:30 am.  That was after 3 days.


Great example. 




> As stated by many, when it becomes an occupation it’s time to end it.


What's the criteria for a protest to become an occupation?  Who decides when that legally protected activity is no longer protected?


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> By an old school PC Government


Nova Scotia's provincial state of emergency appears to be up tomorrow at lunch. They better extend it.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Because you believe everyone deserves the right to be afforded a decent legal defense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Charter sets the conditions. 

This article explains it more than I can.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/constitutional-professors-charter-rights-ottawa-protest-1.6338496
		


Setting up feed stations, fuel dumps and other services with an intent on not leaving would seem to be some of those criteria.   Preventing locals from their rights is also a limit.  

Occupy Ottawa lasted 30 days.  But they were smart and set up a camp in a park and left residents alone.   But still got evicted a lot later than they should have.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

That makes sense thank you.

I'm still surprised no one has tried to set one of those trucks blaring their horns on fire yet.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That makes sense thank you.
> 
> I'm still surprised no one has tried to set one of those trucks blaring their horns on fire yet.


I think some might be at that point.  Counter protesters won’t be helpful at all if they ever decided to engage.  The only counter protests I heard of was at city hall and OPS headquarters asking fir something to be done.  Small crowds though.


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Nova Scotia's provincial state of emergency appears to be up tomorrow at lunch. They better extend it.



We will see


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support… 🤔


​Convoy protests ignoring real hardships truckers face, Peel drivers warn​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/convoy-protests-ignoring-real-hardships-truckers-face-peel-drivers-warn-1.6340263
		




> Truckers in Peel Region say the convoy protest that has gripped Ottawa for more than a week isn't addressing the real problems they face — and they're trying to shift the conversation away from COVID-19 vaccine mandates and toward stopping abuse and wage theft in the industry.





> Attar Sodhi, a 37-year-old Brampton resident and truck driver, says very few of the protesters in Ottawa are South Asians, who make up more than half of the truckers operating in the Greater Toronto Area, according to some estimates.





> Some truckers say it's been difficult watching the protesters in Ottawa speak out against vaccines and other public health measures, when they got immunized against COVID-19 so they could provide for their families and protect the wider community.





> Federal Transport Minister Omar Alghabra met with truckers in Mississauga on Friday ahead of the planned convoy demonstration in Toronto.





> "All credible trucking organizations have distanced themselves from the protests in Ottawa," he said.
> The Ontario Trucking Association (OTA) and the Canadian Alliance of Truckers (CTA) are two of those organizations.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

Because we’ve heard so much from the CTA on wages and conditions, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Because we’ve heard so much from the CTA on wages and conditions, right?


Based on what they _have_ said, I suspect there's waaaaaaaaay more companies than individual owner-operators in the group.  They've moved from this in December ...  


> _"The government of Canada’s decision to mandate the COVID-19 vaccine for domestic federally regulated workers in the trucking industry – including many truck drivers who have been delivering products to Canadians throughout the pandemic – would put an even bigger strain on an already beleaguered supply chain, says the Canadian Trucking Alliance ..."_


... to this late last month:  *"Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier"*


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

You posted about the Sikh community and party politics,



Good2Golf said:


> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support…





Good2Golf said:


> Because we’ve heard so much from the CTA on wages and conditions, right?



We can start another thread if you want to discuss "wages and conditions", right?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (5 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> You posted about the Sikh community and party politcs,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can we start another thread if you want to discuss paramedics?


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

My reply was to this,



> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support…



do you have an opinion?


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> ... to this late last month:  *"Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier"*





Good2Golf said:


> Because we’ve heard so much from the CTA on wages and conditions, right?


​If we want to discuss "wages and conditions",

Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier​





						Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier - Canadian Trucking Alliance
					






					cantruck.ca


----------



## PuckChaser (5 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> My reply was to this,
> 
> 
> 
> do you have an opinion?


No, he's going to highlight 2 words out of context and then link to a Google search result without actually contributing anything to the discussion.

Oh wait, there's only one person here that does that.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Feb 2022)

I do like donuts....


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

G2G said,


> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support…



I offered my opinion to the question, based on what I have read.

The Bread Guy contributed his opinon and sources as well.

Do you have an opinion or source related to G2G's question?


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Convoy protests ignoring real hardships truckers face, Peel drivers warn​


I guess they could always get in their trucks and start a protest?

Source: Police anticipating surge of trucks, demonstrators as convoy 'protest' enters second weekend


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> You posted about the Sikh community and party politics,


And The Bread Guy brought up the same issue I was alluding to, ie. CTA represents far more openly trucking companies, than owner-operators.  Have you reviewed CTA’s web presence. One story on women truckers and not a single South Asian trucker in sight.  Majority of interviews use references from major Canadian trucking companies, not O/Os.




mariomike said:


> We can start another thread if you want to discuss "wages and conditions", right?


This one’s fine, since it’s an associated issue.  No need to split it further, unless there are other more tangential topics, like trucking support to EMS across the country, for example.


----------



## Quirky (5 Feb 2022)

Is this still about truckers and vaccines anymore?


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Is this still about truckers and vaccines anymore?



Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier​





						Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier - Canadian Trucking Alliance
					






					cantruck.ca


----------



## Amoaliquis (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> People can get their money back. If they don’t then it goes to charity.


GFM has stated it is an automatic reimbursement now.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ignoring them certainly has worked well, why change course now...


I'm loving the thought of hundreds of Farm Machines driving around downtown Toronto. 

This is some elite level trolling by the protesters.  Like the Government wishes they were actually violent so they could do something about it.  Instead they are like..... "how in the heck are we gonna deal with 200 farm tractors someone just left here LOL"



Underway said:


> I got an email saying go into work in civilians because of potential conflict with the protestors, to not engage with protestors and to basically mind my own business.
> 
> This was framed however not as political but entirely as ensuring that CAF members are safe, don't get antagonized, and don't get caught in the crossfire between law enforcement, protestors and/or counter protests.
> 
> So the only solution I see was to just work from home!



Probably more to do with not having CAF members photographed so the Dept doesn't end up in any compromising situations.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Vaccine Mandate Leading to Better Driver Pay: Carrier​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


…and you are aware of Bison’s driver demographic, right?  A past colleague of mine now involved in senior levels of a Canadian trucking fleet operator noted that Bison, headquartered in Winnipeg, is ‘notably different’ than owner operators in the GTA (primarily Brampton-based O/Os and small independents). Something to think about when you refer to an article that champions significant wage increases for a demographic other than that to which In referred at the beginning of the issue.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

My reply was to this,



> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support…



Based on what I have read, not much.

Reports indicate many Sikh truckers are vaccinated. The concern seems to be more with wages and conditions, rather than vaccine politics.

Possibly worth noting - it may only be a coincidence - Federal Minister of Transport, the Honourable Omar Alghabra, is Member of Parliament for Mississauga Centre in Peel Region ( 905 ).


----------



## Furniture (5 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm loving the thought of hundreds of Farm Machines driving around downtown Toronto.
> 
> This is some elite level trolling by the protesters.  Like the Government wishes they were actually violent so they could do something about it.  Instead they are like..... "how in the heck are we gonna deal with 200 farm tractors someone just left here LOL"



My impression so far has been that the protestors are really leaning into the memes, and the humour of it all. In the video where dude in Ottawa was losing his mind the guy in the rig trolled him with 'The honking will continue until freedom improves"....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> My impression so far has been that the protestors are really leaning into the memes, and the humour of it all. In the video where dude in Ottawa was losing his mind the guy in the rig trolled him with 'The honking will continue until freedom improves"....


I want someone to get a picture of the Toronto Police Public Order Horses beside the Farm Tractors.

"Public Order collides with the Industrial Revolution"

I'm sure someone can make a mod for Farm Simulator 22.  🤣


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I want someone to get a picture of the Toronto Police Public Order Horses beside the Farm Tractors.
> 
> "Public Order collides with the Industrial Revolution"
> 
> I'm sure someone can make a mod for Farm Simulator 22.  🤣



Just don't give them any ideas....  

From 2019:
Climate activists dump pile of manure outside Doug Ford’s constituency office​








						Climate activists dump pile of manure outside Doug Ford’s constituency office
					

Officers were sent to Premier Doug Ford’s constituency office on Sunday morning after a pile of manure was dumped in front of the building.




					www.cp24.com


----------



## Blackadder1916 (5 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Instead they are like..... "how in the heck are we gonna deal with 200 farm tractors someone just left here LOL"



I have a suggestion.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Probably crashing.
> 
> edit: it worked. Already at 169,000. Goal is 16M


That appears to be the problem. A tweet from GiveSendGo

"GiveSendGo

@GiveSendGo
·
16h

We know the site is slow, or getting a server error. We are working on it! All hands on deck. There's thousands on making  successful donations so please try again if you get an error! (also fending off any attacks which just come with the territory) Pray for wisdom & resilience!


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> That appears to be the problem. A tweet from GiveSendGo
> 
> "GiveSendGo
> 
> ...


Surprised that no one has suggested that the NSA or the media or CSE or the Salvation Army has hacked the site and trying to slow it down on purpose…


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Feb 2022)

> If enforcement was strict, this current protest turned occupation would have been ended before it started.



Yes, that's the point: enforcement practices have changed from what I thought to be the case.  A CBC article includes this: "It came to this, largely, because this is the way that police agencies have been moving for the last 10 years," he said. "A strategy of containment and hoping the protests fizzle out enough that they can then be dealt with. So this has been very textbook."

So my thinking was old-school.  Obviously we can't have distinct standards based on skin colour or political or religious affiliations.  So I suppose the next question is, how do people want authorities to respond to civil disobedience now that we've had a taste of it from all across the political spectrum these past couple of years, plus examples from other countries?


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> That appears to be the problem. A tweet from GiveSendGo
> 
> "GiveSendGo
> 
> ...


Looks like over 10,000 people have already donated over $1.1M USD


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like over 10,000 people have already donated ober $1.1M USD


That’s sort of good.  Assuming the class action lawsuits from the people of centertown is successful.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> So my thinking was old-school.  Obviously we can't have distinct standards based on skin colour or political or religious affiliations.  So I suppose the next question is, how do people want authorities to respond to civil disobedience now that we've had a taste of it from all across the political spectrum these past couple of years, plus examples from other countries?



My memories of Metro Police running the hippies, draft-dodgers, and "others" out of Yorkville, Rochdale and the old Yonge Street Strip of the 1970's are of what some might describe as, "old-school".  They did not receive "kid glove" treatment.

But, they were effective.

The mayor, at the time, said, "A few hippies and deserters are Toronto's only problem."

Not to suggest the old school I remember was better - or worse - than the new school of today. Just different.

And no, that is not to compare "Freedom" to the above.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes, that's the point: enforcement practices have changed from what I thought to be the case.  A CBC article includes this: "It came to this, largely, because this is the way that police agencies have been moving for the last 10 years," he said. "A strategy of containment and hoping the protests fizzle out enough that they can then be dealt with. So this has been very textbook."
> 
> So my thinking was old-school.  Obviously we can't have distinct standards based on skin colour or political or religious affiliations.  So I suppose the next question is, how do people want authorities to respond to civil disobedience now that we've had a taste of it from all across the political spectrum these past couple of years, plus examples from other countries?


I think we are already seeing it.  Quebec, Toronto and NS having seen what happened in Ottawa are basically stopping trucks from coming in. Enforcing any and all traffic violations and photographing every license plate.  Keeping the big stuff out.

Ottawa’s mistake was thinking that once the protest had their say they would be reasonable and  move on like most others do.  Add the nexus of heavy machinery and you have problems. 

I doubt we’ll ever see “truckers” allowed to do that ever again.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

Politicians in the US are threatening to investigate gofundme, who now has decided they better give back the cash.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Politicians in the US are threatening to investigate gofundme, who now has decided they better give back the cash.


They were never going to not give back the money.  But they have made it easier for people to get it back.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Someone has created a name and shame site.









						Ottawa Omicronvoy
					

Ottawa Omicronvoy 2022 - Naming and Shaming Occupiers and Supporters




					convoytraitors.ca


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I doubt we’ll ever see “truckers” allowed to do that ever again.



Looks like they are not letting them pull their sh^t on University Ave.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490046928360460288


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> They were never going to not give back the money.  But they have made it easier for people to get it back.


No Gofundme wanted to redirect the money, but realized that was going to cause them a lot of grief. Republican Attorneys General Across U.S. Announce Plans To Probe GoFundMe For Pulling Freedom Convoy | The Daily Wire


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Someone has created a name and shame site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t see Nazi flag guy or Confederate flag guys.  Or selling Star of David guy…? 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I don’t see Nazi flag guy or Confederate flag guys.  Or selling Star of David guy…? 🤷🏻‍♂️


Speaks volumes doesn't it.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I don’t see Nazi flag guy or Confederate flag guys.  Or selling Star of David guy…? 🤷🏻‍♂️



At least not out in the open.




__





						vaccine mandate holocaust - Google Search
					





					www.google.com
				






Remius said:


> Hate is what is driving this in the first place.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Speaks volumes doesn't it.


Well, when the first shamee is actually a victim of wheel jacking, you have to wonder…perhaps we’ll see more of the vehicles damaged/vandalized…’Eye for an eye…” and all that.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> At least not out in the open.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does this relate to the ‘Name and Shame’ web site I directly quoted? 🤷🏻‍♂️  Perhaps I should be clearer: This site only attempts to name and shame vehicles downtown; I see no attempt whatsoever to actually  identify or attribute racist/homophobic/transphobic/etc. conduct, of the type that many have used to condemn the entire group.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> How does this relate to the ‘Name and Shame’ web site I directly quoted? 🤷🏻‍♂️



I was replying to your statement:



Good2Golf said:


> I don’t see Nazi flag guy or Confederate flag guys.  Or selling Star of David guy…? 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> No Gofundme wanted to redirect the money, but realized that was going to cause them a lot of grief.



The article I read early this morning said that GFM would refund *OR* redirect to a legitimate charity of the organizer's choice.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

So since you aren’t able to appreciate first-order linkage, I edited my post above to make it absolutely clear…that the structure of my post DIRECTLY and PURPOSELY included the link to:









						Ottawa Omicronvoy
					

Ottawa Omicronvoy 2022 - Naming and Shaming Occupiers and Supporters




					convoytraitors.ca
				




Nowhere on that site is any reference to the types of shame-worthy conduct that people, like the PM, were using to broad-brush the entire event as racist and intolerant and just a fringe of Canadian society.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> No Gofundme wanted to redirect the money, but realized that was going to cause them a lot of grief. Republican Attorneys General Across U.S. Announce Plans To Probe GoFundMe For Pulling Freedom Convoy | The Daily Wire


Um not according to their own press release. On the 4th and updated on the 5th.  One side was using fake news to make it look like Gofundme was not returning funds.

The issue was that people had until Feb 19th to ask for a refund.  Any remaining funds would be distributed to charities.   It’s the process that they had for refunds that was the issue. They have made it automatic now.





__





						UPDATE: GoFundMe to refund all Freedom Convoy 2022 donations (2/5/2022)
					

The update we issued earlier (below) enabled all donors to get a refund and outlined a plan to distribute remaining funds to verified…




					medium.com
				




Link here.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well, when the first shamee is actually a victim of wheel jacking,




What the caption says,



> A man who removed the tires from a pickup truck


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> The article I read early this morning said that GFM would refund *OR* redirect to a legitimate charity of the organizer's choice.


Yep.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I don’t see Nazi flag guy or Confederate flag guys.  Or selling Star of David guy…? 🤷🏻‍♂️


Not at all. But that wasn’t the goal I think.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not at all.


So it’s just a name and shame the core participants, not the racist/extreme outliers, type of site.  Got it.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

> I don’t see Nazi flag guy or Confederate flag guys. Or selling Star of David guy…?



Not at all.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So it’s just a name and shame the core participants, not the racist/extreme outliers, type of site.  Got it.


It looks more like an attempt to identify businesses and people linked to the protest.  A few local Ottawa businesses are featured.  I would assume to boycott etc etc.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Toronto protest against vaccine mandates takes over some downtown streets
					

The sound of honking trucks echoed through the streets of downtown Toronto Saturday as a large crowd of protesters descended upon the city to demand the end of COVID-19 restrictions.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				




I wonder where one would get a smoke bomb from…


----------



## Kat Stevens (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Toronto protest against vaccine mandates takes over some downtown streets
> 
> 
> The sound of honking trucks echoed through the streets of downtown Toronto Saturday as a large crowd of protesters descended upon the city to demand the end of COVID-19 restrictions.
> ...


Make it in your kitchen with even a basic understanding of chemistry... or an internet connection.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Make it in your kitchen with even a basic understanding of chemistry... or an internet connection.


Possible yes.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I wonder where one would get a smoke bomb from…



Etsy, Amazon, GorillaSurplus, The Ammo source. 

Paintballers and airsofters use them all the time. Baby reveal parties too


----------



## Kat Stevens (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Possible yes.


Same way you learn that bicycle locks are great for smashing fascists heads in.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Etsy, Amazon, GorillaSurplus, The Ammo source.
> 
> Paintballers and airsofters use them all the time. Baby reveal parties too


That’s true.  Didn’t think of those.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Injunction hearing on use of horns adjourned until Monday.  Judge suggests both parties to come to an agreement but not 12 hours a day.  

Protester side says between 8am and 8pm.

Meanwhile the class action civil suit is claiming 100$ a day per resident affected.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Toronto protest against vaccine mandates takes over some downtown streets
> 
> 
> The sound of honking trucks echoed through the streets of downtown Toronto Saturday as a large crowd of protesters descended upon the city to demand the end of COVID-19 restrictions.
> ...



No. 80?


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Surprised that no one has suggested that the NSA or the media or CSE or the Salvation Army has hacked the site and trying to slow it down on purpose…


... yet ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Um not according to their own press release. On the 4th and updated on the 5th.  One side was using fake news to make it look like Gofundme was not returning funds.
> 
> The issue was that people had until Feb 19th to ask for a refund.  Any remaining funds would be distributed to charities.   It’s the process that they had for refunds that was the issue. They have made it automatic now.
> 
> ...


You can bet that these press release do not tell the full story. GFM saw the legal writing on the wall and decided to pre-empt being dragged through US Senate hearings and the like. Without the pushback they were reluctant to hand back the money.


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can bet that these press release do not tell the full story. GFM saw the legal writing on the wall and decided to pre-empt being dragged through US Senate hearings and the like. Without the pushback they were reluctant to hand back the money.



And I'll bet The Daily Wire isn't telling the whole story either.  Sounds like DeSantis has a bee in his bonnet.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)




----------



## Kilted (5 Feb 2022)

I saw ian historical Belarussian flag that is used to protest their government in pictures at the Toronto protest.  That is unless a white flag with a red bar doesn't have another meaning.


----------



## MilEME09 (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> View attachment 68527


Looks similar to a deployment to east and west isle. Time to test the 3 block war concept again? Only joking of course.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> And I'll bet The Daily Wire isn't telling the whole story either.  Sounds like DeSantis has a bee in his bonnet.


Pretty clear GFM is very selective in its blocking of funds, likley due to the fact that it's HQ is in the San Francisco Bay area.


----------



## Underway (5 Feb 2022)

I had a run-in with protestors downtown Hamilton today.  We were taking my daughter to the Art Gallery for her Bday present to see the Van Gogh exhibit.  Had to redirect to different parking and walk an extra block.  Not a big deal, normal protest stuff, honking horns, blocked traffic, vulgar signs and Canada flags.  Until...

Some lady drove up and decided that she wanted to demonstrate freedom by yelling at/telling my wife to "take those masks off your children" (my kids are in their teens, they are FREE to choose to wear their masks in the street or not).  I responded by reaching down to make a snowball.  She drove off quickly...

Friggin hypocrite Karens.

Edit:  As an added note, my wife who was kinda on the fence on this whole thing is now on the warpath against the protestors.  You don't go after her kids, momma bear has been woken.  Lmao


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Pretty clear GFM is very selective in its blocking of funds, likley due to the fact that it's HQ is in the San Francisco Bay area.


Their HQ is in Redwood City, between San Fran and San Jose. They also have offices in San Diego and Dublin, and operations in France, Spain, Germany, Italy and The UK.

What's your point?

I will say, they do thrive on controversy.

The Politics Of Crowdfunding: How GoFundMe Profits Off Of Controversy


----------



## PPCLI Guy (5 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Looks similar to a deployment to east and west isle. Time to test the 3 block war concept again? Only joking of course.


Sigh.  Krulak entered the conversation.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Their HQ is in Redwood City, between San Fran and San Jose. They also have offices in San Diego and Dublin, and operations in France, Spain, Germany, Italy and The UK.
> 
> What's your point?
> 
> ...


Pretty sure I made my point, cheers


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

Underway said:


> I had a run-in with protestors downtown Hamilton today.  We were taking my daughter to the Art Gallery for her Bday present to see the Van Gogh exhibit.  Had to redirect to different parking and walk an extra block.  Not a big deal, normal protest stuff, honking horns, blocked traffic, vulgar signs and Canada flags.  Until...
> 
> Some lady drove up and decided that she wanted to demonstrate freedom by yelling at/telling my wife to "take those masks off your children" (my kids are in their teens, they are FREE to choose to wear their masks in the street or not).  I responded by reaching down to make a snowball.  She drove off quickly...
> 
> ...


Yea I don't get protesting being told what to do and then tell someone what to do in the next breath. but you get all types at a protest.


----------



## mariomike (5 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> The real story is: have they found somewhere to poop?



Some did.









						COVID-19: Wastewater index blip coincides with convoy arrival; Moore notes 'general improvement' in indicators; Six more deaths in Ottawa
					

After weeks of steady decline, Ottawa’s wastewater signal — considered the most accurate reading of how much COVID-19 is in the community — took a sharp turn…




					ottawacitizen.com
				






> After weeks of steady decline, Ottawa’s wastewater signal — considered the most accurate reading of how much COVID-19 is in the community — took a sharp turn upward last weekend as thousands of vaccine mandate protesters came to the city.



Some did not.



> Some of the protesters are using porta-potties and others have reportedly defecated outdoors — neither of which would be recorded in the city’s viral wastewater signal.


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Feb 2022)

Underway said:


> I had a run-in with protestors downtown Hamilton today.  We were taking my daughter to the Art Gallery for her Bday present to see the Van Gogh exhibit.  Had to redirect to different parking and walk an extra block.  Not a big deal, normal protest stuff, honking horns, blocked traffic, vulgar signs and Canada flags.  Until...
> 
> Some lady drove up and decided that she wanted to demonstrate freedom by yelling at/telling my wife to "take those masks off your children" (my kids are in their teens, they are FREE to choose to wear their masks in the street or not).  I responded by reaching down to make a snowball.  She drove off quickly...
> 
> ...



Id be protesting too if I had to live in Hamilton.


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Pretty sure I made my point, cheers


Oh yeah you did. Just wanted to see if you'd actually come right out and say it, instead of beating around the bush.

As far as pooping, guess people don't care where they go. Filthy pigs.


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can bet that these press release do not tell the full story. GFM saw the legal writing on the wall and decided to pre-empt being dragged through US Senate hearings and the like. Without the pushback they were reluctant to hand back the money.


Except they have always had a refund policy.

They literally said they could get a refund using their policy the moment they said they would pull the GFM campaign. 

The issue is that people didn’t read to the end.  I am sure that is by design though and I am sure  the normal refund process is a pain in the butt like most refund policies.  

I suspect they just made it easier to avoid the hassle after the complaints about it. 

I showed you exactly their statement when they released it and it was in keeping with their existing policy. 

There is more to it because some people were angry about it and created a narrative that was never there.  Lots of that going around.


----------



## FJAG (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I suspect they just made it easier to avoid the hassle after the complaints about it.


Wonder how many rubles are going back to Russia?


----------



## Misses muffett (5 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Oh yeah you did. Just wanted to see if you'd actually come right out and say it, instead of beating around the bush.
> 
> As far as pooping, guess people don't care where they go. Filthy pigs. View attachment 68531View attachment 68532


I dont see 🙈 no poop 💩


----------



## dapaterson (5 Feb 2022)

Ottawa lawyers have filed a class action against the organizers and sixty John Does for the noise and harassment, seeking $100 per day for the individuals who have been subject to the noise and disruption.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490003033475923976


----------



## FJAG (5 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Ottawa lawyers have filed a class action against the organizers and sixty John Does for the noise and harassment, seeking $100 per day for the individuals who have been subject to the noise and disruption.









🍻


----------



## Remius (5 Feb 2022)

Another CPC MP speaking out


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490064398370721797


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Feb 2022)

> guess people don't care where they go



Shocking; I've never seen people urinating in public.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Except they have always had a refund policy.
> 
> They literally said they could get a refund using their policy the moment they said they would pull the GFM campaign.
> 
> ...


I suspect they want to hold onto the money for as long as possible to collect interest on it, on these large funds, they should have their act together by now. I have zero reason to take anything coming from that region or the tech/online industry on face value.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Shocking; I've never seen people urinating in public.


Clearly you need to spend more time in downtown Vancouver or Victoria, you have to pick up after your dog, but not your drug addict.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

This GoFundMe doesnt seem to have much support after 3 days…🤣 they’ve raised a grand total of $265. I guess there is more support for the convoy after all.









						Support people of Ottawa. Trucker convoy go home!, organized by Cael Tompai
					

Ottawa and its citizens are in turmoil.   Contribute here and help Otta… Cael Tompai needs your support for Support people of Ottawa. Trucker convoy go home!



					www.gofundme.com
				




GiveSendGo for the convoy is already over 2M. That “_Christian_” site pffft.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Clearly you need to spend more time in downtown Vancouver or Victoria, you have to pick up after your dog, but not your drug addict.


The sarcasm from Brad could be felt from 5000kms away on this one.


----------



## Underway (6 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Shocking; I've never seen people urinating in public.


Urinating is one thing.  Not much disease in urine, it's essentially sterile (after being filtered in the kidneys).  Feces is an entirely different issue. Disease follows. I wonder if they'll protest typhoid, cholera, and hepatitis.  Or at least a good ol outbreak of GI.

And likely the protestors won't have to deal with it. It will be the neighborhood.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Underway said:


> Urinating is one thing.  Not much disease in urine, it's essentially sterile (after being filtered in the kidneys).  Feces is an entirely different issue. Disease follows. I wonder if they'll protest typhoid, cholera, and hepatitis.  Or at least a good ol outbreak of GI.
> 
> And likely the protestors won't have to deal with it. It will be the neighborhood.


News flash, there is someone shitting in the streets in every city right now.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> News flash, there is someone shitting in the streets in every city right now.


Too true.  Are your putting the protesters on par with the types that do?

I’m not sure why that activity should be dismissed as normal.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Ottawa lawyers have filed a class action against the organizers and sixty John Does for the noise and harassment, seeking $100 per day for the individuals who have been subject to the noise and disruption.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490003033475923976


Case adjourned until tomorrow (7 Feb) ... 








						'UNBEARABLE TORMENT': Judge adjourns noise class action suit seeking $9.8M in damages until Monday
					

A class action lawsuit that could have silenced air horns and sought $9.8 million in damages from organizers and some of the truckers at the so-called “Freedom…




					ottawasun.top1tv.net
				



... with a release available truckers can sign to get outta the Class Action ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490116099727413249


----------



## lenaitch (6 Feb 2022)

I haven't breathlessly watch the coverage on the other weekend protests, but it seems Toronto got off relatively unscathed.  It seems they used traffic gridlock for good rather than evil.  Both cities experience people, tractors, trucks, etc. descending on them vowing to 'shut the place down' and ending up being one-day events of noise and speeches, but they saw what could happen in Ottawa if things got entrenched.

Much of the emphasis of late when choosing police leaders has been on managing community and social issues, and the leaders will often naturally select other senior staff who reflect that direction and vision.  Policing can be messy, and when it comes to making the hard decisions, sometimes the willingness or depth isn't there.


----------



## lenaitch (6 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Case adjourned until tomorrow (7 Feb) ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure it works like that but if it has the same net effect, sure.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This GoFundMe doesnt seem to have much support after 3 days…🤣 they’ve raised a grand total of $265. I guess there is more support for the convoy after all.


Now $295 after 3 days. You would think all the Ottawa residents would come together to support neighbours and their own city. Maybe it will pick up in time.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> News flash, there is someone shitting in the streets in every city right now.


Ironically covid has caused businesses to close off their bathrooms to the public. Over abundance "out of order" signs everywhere.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Now $295 after 3 days. You would think all the Ottawa residents would come together to support neighbours and their own city. Maybe it will pick up in time.


Fundraiser for what though?  Counter protests?  I donated to shepherds. And the mission for men.  By all accounts people are donating to help neighbours.  Just not donating to fringe causes.  

Court injunction and lawsuits are the way to go for those residents. Plenty of lawyers lining up. 

Plus they aren’t getting American money from right wing groups like this current Christian heritage fund raising site can leverage.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ironically covid has caused businesses to close off their bathrooms to the public. Over abundance "out of order" signs everywhere.


Restaurants have been open since last week.  The protest is keeping them closed.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Fundraiser for what though?  Counter protests?





> _ This funding will go directly to the city of Ottawa. The money can then be used to maintain the police presence there, as well as clean up the destruction that has resulted from the members of our society that cannot differentiate rights from privileges, thus expressing their anger in an animalistic and uncivilized manner._



I wouldn't consider the good people in the OCP or city of Ottawa itself a fringe cause. 



> Court injunction and lawsuits are the way to go for those residents. Plenty of lawyers lining up.



Might be right. Could be setting an interesting precedent. 



> Plus they aren’t getting American money from right wing groups like this current Christian heritage fund raising site can leverage.


No they're not. But at $305 in 3 days they're not getting the support of hardly anyone. 
American money didn't account for $9.9M of the other fund. 




Remius said:


> Restaurants have been open since last week.  The protest is keeping them closed.



True. Do restaurants in Ottawa let people off the street use their washrooms or is it a lot of customers only?


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

the people of Ottawa already pay their taxes.  Whey donate to fund?

Exactly.  Why would anyone pay to a fund for something they already pay for. 

It’s a mix.  Bathrooms are normally open in most places like Tim’s, McDonalds the rideau Center, etc.  City hall, a lot of the plazas have public washrooms.  

Sit down restaurants with hosts I imagine not so much.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> American money didn't account for $9.9M of the other fund.



Makes one wonder why the Republicans are so damn interested in what's happening to the GFM donations.


----------



## kkwd (6 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Makes one wonder why the Republicans are so damn interested in what's happening to the GFM donations.


You said it yourself, quite well. It is a US based entity.


> Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]
> 
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/person-allegedly-carrying-smoke-bomb-arrested-in-toronto-as-huge-crowd-of-anti-mandate-protesters-gather-1.5769384  I wonder where one would get a smoke bomb from…   No. 80? ;)
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> the people of Ottawa already pay their taxes.  Whey donate to fund?


Because they love the city 


Remius said:


> It’s a mix.  Bathrooms are normally open in most places like Tim’s, McDonalds the rideau Center, etc.  City hall, a lot of the plazas have public washrooms.


I guess there wasn't a washroom problem after all.

It would be nice to see Ottawa catch up to Europe in terms of public washrooms as stand alone structures.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Because they love the city
> 
> I guess there wasn't a washroom problem after all.
> 
> It would be nice to see Ottawa catch up to Europe in terms of public washrooms as stand alone structures.


That's one thing Victoria gets right.  There are public washrooms in every park, municipal building and library.  The Galloping Goose and E&N Bikeways also have bathrooms all along their routes.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Because they love the city
> 
> I guess there wasn't a washroom problem after all.
> 
> It would be nice to see Ottawa catch up to Europe in terms of public washrooms as stand alone structures.


Give me a break. People are donating where it matters.  Food bank, shepherds, the Bronson Center.  Donations are all up in those areas and Ottawa has always been generous to those groups.  Pointing to this go fund me some rando started as a measure of Ottawa and the people in it is dumb.  

There is when they are all shut down because of protesters/occupiers.

The weather is the issue. But Ottawa has always had a public washroom issue. But people taking dumps on the street is not normal nor acceptable.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> You said it yourself, quite well. It is a US based entity.



So what?  It's not _their_ money.


----------



## kkwd (6 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> So what?  It's not _their_ money.


GFM abides by US laws. I once heard nobody is above the law, I can't quite remember where.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> That's one thing Victoria gets right.  There are public washrooms in every park, municipal building and library.  The Galloping Goose and E&N Bikeways also have bathrooms all along their routes.


The weather allows for that in Victoria though.  There are public washrooms in most public access buildings like libraries and city hall.  But forget getting year round bathroom access in most parks and bike trails.


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Makes one wonder why the Republicans are so damn interested in what's happening to the GFM donations.


I suspect it's similar to why so many Canadians care about the Republicans and Democrats, they are worried whether "their side" is losing or winning a fight.

Why not go all in and ask about what the Russians and Chinese think of it as well?


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I suspect it's similar to why so many Canadians care about the Republicans and Democrats, they are worried whether "their side" is losing or winning a fight.
> 
> Why not go all in and ask about what the Russians and Chinese think of it as well?



Hey, if people can believe that the GFM was suspended just based on the location of their HQ, I can question why someone is so interested in the money now that the fund has been suspended when no one was interested in where the money was going before.  Just speculation.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Hey, if people can believe that the GFM was suspended just based on the location of their HQ, I can question why someone is so interested in the money now that the fund has been suspended when no one was interested in where the money was going before.  Just speculation.


Seems speculation is limited to one side lol.

But yes, seems odd.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

Another demand from the protesters ...


> “Freedom convoy” supporters convinced that the Governor General can dissolve Parliament on a whim have “absolutely inundated” Rideau Hall with calls over the past week, National Post has learned ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Feb 2022)

Just one view of the impact of the "Freedom Convoy" on Ottawa:


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Hey, if people can believe that the GFM was suspended just based on the location of their HQ, I can question why someone is so interested in the money now that the fund has been suspended when no one was interested in where the money was going before.  Just speculation.


The question about where the money was supposed to go was answered after the first suspension of the fund... People had to claim it with receipts, and the rest would go to a veterans charity.

Was there potential for people to make fraudulent claims, and squirrel money away for other purposes? Yes. Does that potential exist with every GoFundMe? Yes.

Does it seem odd that GoFundMe suspended the convoy protest, while allowing the CHAZ/CHOP protest?  Yes. Is the politics of the company a likely contributing reason for the difference? Yes.  Is it the only possible reason? No. 

Like in all things, there are multiple facets to this, but politics has limited it to my tribe vs. your tribe. GoFundMe has chosen to take political sides, after making good money off the protest supporters, they should expect political backlash. If they didn't want to get into politics, they should have avoided entering the arena.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Just one view of the impact of the "Freedom Convoy" on Ottawa:
> 
> View attachment 68537


Sad image indeed.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Give me a break. People are donating where it matters.  Food bank, shepherds, the Bronson Center.  Donations are all up in those areas


I haven't been able to find anything online supporting that.



Remius said:


> Pointing to this go fund me some rando started as a measure of Ottawa and the people in it is dumb.


Fair point. I'll wait to see articles about Ottawa residents coming together to support each other and increases in donations.



Remius said:


> But people taking dumps on the street is not normal nor acceptable.


Have the protestors been shitting in the streets?


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I haven't been able to find anything online supporting that.
> 
> 
> Fair point. I'll wait to see articles about Ottawa residents coming together to support each other and increases in donations.
> ...


People only look for what they want not what is actually out there. This was widely circulated 

Yes they have been shitting in the streets.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

Thanks. If it was widely circulated on twitter I wouldn't have seen it.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

it was also in many MSM news stories.


----------



## Underway (6 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> News flash, there is someone shitting in the streets in every city right now.


News Flash:  Normal city waste (dogs, bird, raccoon, homeless) is handled by the infrastructure for the normal carrying capacity of the area.  Extra on top strains that infrastructure and can lead to problems.


----------



## mariomike (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Sad image indeed.



Indeed. That was Ottawa.

Toronto yesterday.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490202744833155073


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> it was also in many MSM news stories.


Weird, still not seeing it when I do searches e.g are donations on a rise in Ottawa.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> GFM abides by US laws. I once heard nobody is above the law ...


Well, not to everyone - this from a source those who may distrust MSM ....


> Facing a potential fraud investigation by the state of Florida, GoFundMe reversed a decision to redistribute money given by thousands of donors to the Canadian "Freedom Convoy" protesting COVID-19 regulations.
> 
> On Friday, the crowdfunding platform GoFundMe froze the convoy's official campaign, claiming law enforcement convinced the company that the convoy had become violent and unlawful.
> 
> ...


Here's the Governor's Tweet ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489978237304426501


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Toronto yesterday.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490202744833155073


So that makes what, three racist signs/flags across thousands of protestors, in multiple cities? 

I'm willing to be any organization with more than 2000 people has a few racists, homophobes, etc., in it's numbers. Even some of your fellow Toronto EMS pers are likely unsavory characters, does that make all Toronto EMS pers bad people, or is just organizations that we politically don't agree with that are treated that way?


----------



## mariomike (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> So that makes what, three racist signs/flags across thousands of protestors, in multiple cities?



I wouldn't be bragging about how few there are. 



			vaccine mandate holocaust - Google Search
		




			vaccine mandate holocaust - Google Search


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Feb 2022)

I enjoy watching people try really hard to pump up the perception of how much extremist hate there really is, though.  Second place goes to all the hand-waving about how aspects of this protest are various degrees of red alert crises, unlike any other protest experienced in recent memory.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I wouldn't be bragging about how few there are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That google search brought back images from Canada, US, UK. So that's out of a potentiel population of some 450 million people.


----------



## mariomike (6 Feb 2022)

No doubt there's some very fine people in Freedom Convoy.

Participation of extremist groups​In the lead-up to the planned arrival in Ottawa, it was anonymously reported on January 25 that alleged far-right and white supremacist groups were hoping for violence on Parliament Hill akin to the 2021 United States Capitol attack.[122] This has caused organizer Tamara Lich to address convoy members and denounce political violence, saying that protesters should "hold a peaceful protest" instead.[123][24] Organizers and leaders of the convoy condemned extremist groups, and asked that participants report law breakers to the police.[124] They also stated that any extremists found would be "removed" from the convoy.[125] Despite this, some protesters were photographed waving Confederate or Nazi flags at the rally.[126][127][128] On January 28, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau expressed concern that a small group of protesters are going to be posing a threat during the weekend.[129]

Links to far-right and separatist groups​
One of the lead organizers of the convoy, James Bauder, has previously stated support for QAnon, endorsed conspiracy theories about the COVID-19 pandemic and the 2020 U.S. presidential election, and called for the arrest of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for alleged treason.[130] On February 3, 2022, Romana Didulo arrived in Ottawa with supporters. Didulo calls herself the "Queen of Canada" and is a conspiracy theorist linked to QAnon.[131] In November 2021, she called on her 73,000 Telegram followers to shoot healthcare workers.[132] An episode of _The Faulkner Focus_, hosted by Harris Faulkner, was criticized by _The Daily Beast_ in February 2022 for trying to normalize the protests and anti-vaccine sentiment, saying that the protesters were not a fringe minority, but represented the mainstream of society and had international support. The montage of protesters she showed prominently displayed imagery relating to QAnon.[133]
The Facebook page for the convoy has shared content from and listed as an organizer Wexit co-founder and Yellow Vest Canada organizer Patrick King, who has previously hosted counter-protests to anti-racism rallies, spread COVID-19 misinformation, and spread the Great Replacement conspiracy theory.[134][135][136]
Maverick Party - Tamara Lich, the protest's fundraiser, is Secretary for the Maverick Party, a western separatist group formerly known as Wexit Canada.[105] Lich was previously the regional co-ordinator for Wexit in southeastern Alberta and board member for Wexit Alberta.[137] The Maverick Party has denied involvement in fundraising for the convoy, issuing a statement on January 24 saying that the party is not involved in the protest.[107]
Action 4 Canada - associated with the Canada Unity group inside the Freedom Convoy - Islamophobic and anti-LGBTQ conspiracy group with webpages about the dangers of political Islam, health consequences of 5G technology and underreporting of adverse vaccine reactions.[134] Founded by Tanya Gaw who actively supported the Yellow Vests protests of 2019.[138]
No More Lockdowns - Jason LaFace, Canada Unity's Ontario organizer for the Freedom Convoy is also a main organizer for No More Lockdowns Canada - An anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine mandate organization primarily associated with expelled Ontario MPP Randy Hillier which holds anti-lockdown rallies across Ontario.[47][139]
Peoples Party of Canada - Benjamin Dichter who is listed as an organizer on the Freedom Convoy GoFundMe page and who is an organizer of the Freedom Convoy was a speaker at the inaugural 2019 PPC National Convention where he claimed political Islam has infiltrated the Conservative Party and is "rotting away at our society like syphilis".[140]
Soldiers of Odin - Convoy leader Dave Steenburg and admin of the Convoy Facebook page Jason LaFace both have posted material by Soldiers of Odin, a neo-Nazi vigilante group, on their Facebook pages, LaFace even wearing a SOO jacket.[141][142]
References here:








						Canada convoy protest - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## mariomike (6 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> That google search brought back images from Canada, US, UK. So that's out of a potentiel population of some 450 million people.



More than just images.


			vaccine mandate holocaust - Google Search


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> No doubt there's some very fine people in Freedom Convoy.
> 
> Participation of extremist groups​In the lead-up to the planned arrival in Ottawa, it was anonymously reported on January 25 that alleged far-right and white supremacist groups were hoping for violence on Parliament Hill akin to the 2021 United States Capitol attack.[122] *This has caused organizer Tamara Lich to address convoy members and denounce political violence, saying that protesters should "hold a peaceful protest" instead.[123][24] Organizers and leaders of the convoy condemned extremist groups, and asked that participants report law breakers to the police.[124] They also stated that any extremists found would be "removed" from the convoy.*[125] Despite this, some protesters were photographed waving Confederate or Nazi flags at the rally.[126][127][128] On January 28, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau expressed concern that a small group of protesters are going to be posing a threat during the weekend.[129]
> 
> ...


Did you read the highlighted part?

As I said, three people have been photographed with clearly racist POS signs/flags. There have been cameras all over the place at the protests, there are thousands of people at the protests, if it was as endemic as the the hyperbole makes it sound there would be more than three examples in the news.

That the links you keep posting for google searches show stories and images from around the anglosphere world, doesn't support the argument that these specific protests in Canada are based on racism, or anti-Semitism. Unless what you are really trying to say, but won't, is that you believe everybody against government vaccine mandates is racist, and anti-Semitic.


----------



## mariomike (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Unless what you are really trying to say, but won't, is that you believe everybody against government vaccine mandates is racist, and anti-Semitic.



No. I said,



> No doubt there's some very fine people in Freedom Convoy.



Vaccination is freedom of choice.

As mentioned before by others, choices have consequences.

I don't expect you, or anyone, to change their opinion.

 The voters will decide.


----------



## Altair (6 Feb 2022)

Seems like givesendgo is making GFM redundant.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

After ten days, Ottawa Police are apparently trying a bold new strategy of... enforcement, not appeasement.

Looks like paying Navigator (the communications company politicians hire after accidentally killing someone, or media personalities hire after being accused of repeated sexual assault) up to $75,000 to polish the turd of the OPS response might be resulting in focus groups advising that the police actually, bold idea, try policing.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> After ten days, Ottawa Police are apparently trying a bold new strategy of... enforcement, not appeasement.
> 
> Looks like paying Navigator (the communications company politicians hire after accidentally killing someone, or media personalities hire after being accused of repeated sexual assault) up to $75,000 to polish the turd of the OPS response might be resulting in focus groups advising that the police actually, bold idea, try policing.


So, to be clear, we are not defunding the Police any longer?


----------



## Halifax Tar (6 Feb 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> So, to be clear, we are not defunding the Police any longer?



Don't you know defunding the police doesn't actually mean defunding the police... Pssshhhhh


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Next FY Ottawa Police are likely going to face significant push to cut their budget; if they couldn't read open source information that explained exactly what was going to happen and prepare appropriately... well, I'm expecting a new police chief to go along with the replacement for the Mayor that's already on the books (the incumbent isn't running).


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Next FY Ottawa Police are likely going to face significant push to cut their budget; if they couldn't read open source information that explained exactly what was going to happen and prepare appropriately... well, I'm expecting a new police chief to go along with the replacement for the Mayor that's already on the books (the incumbent isn't running).


Very accurate prediction.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Someone either failed math, failed history or might be American.  Possibly all three.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Too true.  Are your putting the protesters on par with the types that do?
> 
> I’m not sure why that activity should be dismissed as normal.


Good odds the person in the photo pissing was also pissing in public before the protest, as a transient typically does. You’re working overtime to link any misbehaviour to the protest cause no matter how irrelevant or trifling.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ironically covid has caused businesses to close off their bathrooms to the public. Over abundance "out of order" signs everywhere.


To be fair, not many would want there washrooms available to a crowd like this.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Just one view of the impact of the "Freedom Convoy" on Ottawa:
> 
> View attachment 68537


Things look pretty good compared to other protests where statues are ripped down, stores vandalized…


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

All fair points QV.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> View attachment 68542
> Someone either failed math, failed history or might be American.  Possibly all three.



Canadians shouldn't be proud of what the country was doing at home 80 years ago this month.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490398101072490496


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> To be fair, not many would want there washrooms available to a crowd like this.


For hygiene reasons or political?


----------



## Haggis (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Next FY Ottawa Police are likely going to face significant push to cut their budget; if they couldn't read open source information that explained exactly what was going to happen and prepare appropriately... well, I'm expecting a new police chief to go along with the replacement for the Mayor that's already on the books (the incumbent isn't running).


The organizers were touting "fifty thousand trucks and half a million people!"  Meanwhile the police and the media continually downplayed the numbers an minimized the scope of this protest right up until the trucks started rolling in nine days ago. All the while the organizers were saying "hold my beer".  Now, emboldened by what they were able to accomplish in Ottawa, copycat protests have sprung up nationwide.  This could be held out as a law enforcement intelligence and PR failure of significant magnitude.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The organizers were touting "fifty thousand trucks and half a million people!"  Meanwhile the police and the media continually downplayed the numbers an minimized the scope of this protest right up until the trucks started rolling in nine days ago. All the while the organizers were saying "hold my beer".  Now, emboldened by what they were able to accomplish in Ottawa, copycat protests have sprung up nationwide.  This could be held out as a law enforcement intelligence and PR failure of significant magnitude.


And to make things worse, a police chief who keeps saying he can’t deal with it.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

There are internal dynamics of OPS as well; between intimate partner assault, bribery, threats of violence, workplace physical and sexual harassment... the chief of the OPS inherited an organization where his predecessors ignored and tacitly endorsed foundational erosion of professional standards.  His attempts at minor change have been resisted by the old guard within the OPS, creating an untenable situation at the best of times.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The organizers were touting "fifty thousand trucks and half a million people!"  Meanwhile the police and the media continually downplayed the numbers an minimized the scope of this protest right up until the trucks started rolling in nine days ago. All the while the organizers were saying "hold my beer".  Now, emboldened by what they were able to accomplish in Ottawa, copycat protests have sprung up nationwide.  This could be held out as a law enforcement intelligence and PR failure of significant magnitude.


Keep in mind, this Freedom Convoy is a variation of the massive anti vaccine mandates protests that have been doting major European capitals for months. Nobody heard about them in Canada and the US for obvious narrative reasons. There are now European and Australian truck convoys planned, so no matter how many times the media and government calls them racist, it isn't going to stop until the mandates are gone.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Next FY Ottawa Police are likely going to face significant push to cut their budget; if they couldn't read open source information that explained exactly what was going to happen and prepare appropriately.



Is $800,000 a day this was apparently costing for police normal for an event like this?


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

OPS spends just over $1M daily; the $800K was incremental cost on top of that.


----------



## Altair (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490398101072490496




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490372466652422144


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> There are internal dynamics of OPS as well; between intimate partner assault, bribery, threats of violence, workplace physical and sexual harassment... the chief of the OPS inherited an organization where his predecessors ignored and tacitly endorsed foundational erosion of professional standards.  His attempts at minor change have been resisted by the old guard within the OPS, creating an untenable situation at the best of times.


Has OPS tried OP HONOUR? 🤔


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490398101072490496


It's interesting that the people who used the "under siege" rhetoric are now the ones imposing siege like conditions on others... How long until the OPS start launching dead protester bodies onto Wellington St. to try to spread diseases? 

Before anyone get's all offended, I am joking. 

Though I wonder how long it will be until cold related injuries start happening in the protest if people feel they can't leave for fear of arrest, and can't get food, water, or gas.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Has OPS tried OP HONOUR? 🤔


As far as I know, the chief doesn't have out of wedlock children with a subordinate, which, as I understand, is a necessary prerequisite for launching an activity like that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Has OPS tried OP HONOUR? 🤔





dapaterson said:


> As far as I know, the chief doesn't have out of wedlock children with a subordinate, which, as I understand, is a necessary prerequisite for launching an activity like that.


----------



## MilEME09 (6 Feb 2022)

Mayor Jim Watson has declared a state of emergency for the city of Ottawa as the 'Freedom Convoy' demonstration continues to occupy the downtown area.









						Police target fuel supply for 'Freedom Convoy' demonstration in Ottawa
					

Protesters say police seized 3,200 litres of fuel during a raid at the Ottawa Baseball Stadium on Coventry Road Sunday evening.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> It's interesting that the people who used the "under siege" rhetoric are now the ones imposing siege like conditions on others... How long until the OPS start launching dead protester bodies onto Wellington St. to try to spread diseases?
> 
> Before anyone get's all offended, I am joking.
> 
> Though I wonder how long it will be until cold related injuries start happening in the protest if people feel they can't leave for fear of arrest, and can't get food, water, or gas.


The Romans used to siege those that sieged them.   

They could ask the homeless how they cope without fuel and food.  I mean the occupiers already have  public urinating  and defecation down pat and they know where the shepperds of good hope is so I imagine they’ll manage.

All kidding aside I hope the police actually keep enforcement up. Looks like they will be ticketing vehicles every 4 hours now.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Mayor Jim Watson has declared a state of emergency for the city of Ottawa as the 'Freedom Convoy' demonstration continues to occupy the downtown area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure that will do anything.  I suppose it adds weight to the legal actions under way.


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> *The Romans used to siege those that sieged them.  *
> 
> They could ask the homeless how they cope without fuel and food.  I mean the occupiers already have  public urinating  and defecation down pat and they know where the shepperds of good hope is so I imagine they’ll manage.
> 
> All kidding aside I hope the police actually keep enforcement up. Looks like they will be ticketing vehicles every 4 hours now.


Better warn the OPS, I get the feeling the Chief is no Julius Caesar.... Likely better for his long-term health actually.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Better warn the OPS, I get the feeling the Chief is no Julius Caesar.... Likely better for his long-term health actually.


I have no doubt people will be calling out his handling of this whole thing.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> True.  But No nazi flags or racist organisers there either.


Considering that whole movement is racist at its core (the concept of some people having more rights than others based off accident of birth is racist), the organizers of that movement ARE racist.



Remius said:


> Meanwhile in Nova Scotia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is already illegal to block the roads as per 423 of the criminal code (and also illegal to prevent people from going about anything they are legally allowed to do). The police are just not enforcing that portion of the law.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Considering that whole movement is racist at its core (the concept of some people having more rights than others based off accident of birth is racist), the organizers of that movement ARE racist.
> 
> 
> It is already illegal to block the roads as per 423 of the criminal code (and also illegal to prevent people from going about anything they are legally allowed to do). The police are just not enforcing that portion of the law.


Then I wonder why they have to enact another law. 

As to your first point.  Interesting take on what is racist.  I’m not sure I understand your argument.  Are you saying that minorities (In this case indigenous people) advocating for themselves are racists for doing so?   I’ve heard similar arguments from some quarters.  This should be interesting.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Then I wonder why they have to enact another law.
> 
> As to your first point.  Interesting take on what is racist.  I’m not sure I understand your argument.  Are you saying that minorities (In this case indigenous people) advocating for themselves are racists for doing so?   I’ve heard similar arguments from some quarters.  This should be interesting.


I have never heard of that law being used, maybe they need to educate the police as to its existence as ignorance of the law isn't a defense only if your a civilian. 

Explain to me how advocating for special rights and privileges above and beyond equality, for a specific group of people (especially enshrining them in law) isn't racist. Doesn't matter if it is white, black, native, hispanic, asian, etc. 

Equality is something everyone claims to want, but in reality most don't. Most people want special treatment in some form or another.


----------



## lenaitch (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure that will do anything.  I suppose it adds weight to the legal actions under way.


It also opens up avenues for federal and provincial funding support.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I have never heard of that law being used, maybe they need to educate the police as to its existence as ignorance of the law isn't a defense only if your a civilian.
> 
> Explain to me how advocating for special rights and privileges above and beyond equality, for a specific group of people (especially enshrining them in law) isn't racist. Doesn't matter if it is white, black, native, hispanic, asian, etc.
> 
> Equality is something everyone claims to want, but in reality most don't. Most people want special treatment in some form or another.


What exactly goes above equality? A group protests pipelines.  Don’t want it on their land and that is racist? 

Or are you talking about special programs like say university grants and scholarships?


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490448413892169733
700$ is pretty hefty.


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

So based on this story, can we now say everybody for mandates is violent? 

Driver charged with hitting convoy protesters named


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> So based on this story, can we now say everybody for mandates is violent?
> 
> Driver charged with hitting convoy protesters named


I suppose we’ll see if anyone here casually dismisses this as ok or normal or makes excuses for it in any significant number.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

If a protest trucker or supporter hit 4 people with a vehicle Trudeau would be talking about it on the news.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> If a protest trucker or supporter hit 4 people with a vehicle Trudeau would be talking about it on the news.


Of course he would.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Doesn’t look mandate related one way or another.  Maybe road rage?



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-police-hit-and-run-david-zegarac-1.6341667
		


But I will not be shocked to see other things take place in the days to come as frustration mounts.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> So based on this story, can we now say everybody for mandates is violent?


I wouldn't untill all the facts are in.  Then again, broad brushes are available to anyone who wants to paint with one based on the idiocy of the few ...


QV said:


> Things look pretty good compared to other protests where statues are ripped down, stores vandalized…


Meanwhile, some of the organizers have called a bit of an audio truce ....


> Participants in Freedom Convoy 2022 are calling a temporary halt to horn-blowing as their campaign to end COVID restrictions in Canada enters its second week in the nation's capital.
> 
> "Out of respect for the Lord's Day, for members of our military who have sacrificed and who continue to sacrifice so much for our freedom, for the men and women in blue who are doing such a superb job protecting us, and as a gesture of goodwill, members of our Convoy will desist from the blowing of Horns tomorrow, Sunday from 9 am to 1 pm Ottawa time." ...


Anyone in Ottawa able to say how well this held this morning?


----------



## Altair (6 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I wouldn't.  Then again, broad brushes are available to anyone who wants to paint with one based on the idiocy of the few ...
> 
> Meanwhile, some of the organizers have called a bit of an audio truce ....
> 
> Anyone in Ottawa able to say how well this held this morning?


Twitter said it went very poorly.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Doesn’t look mandate related one way or another.  Maybe road rage?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe he was just drunk like a Saskatchewan premier when he got behind the wheel?  Name appears to be the same as a Manitoba punk rock musician with a loaded history 




__
		https://getradified.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F128656232045
.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I wouldn't untill all the facts are in.  Then again, broad brushes are available to anyone who wants to paint with one based on the idiocy of the few ...
> 
> Meanwhile, some of the organizers have called a bit of an audio truce ....
> 
> Anyone in Ottawa able to say how well this held this morning?


Reports are that it didn’t hold. Horns were still blaring.  I doubt the organisers have any real control over that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Twitter said it went very poorly.


I've seen that, but Twitter also "said" Morneau & the Commish of the RCMP were related  


Remius said:


> Reports are that it didn’t hold. Horns were still blaring.  *I doubt the organisers have any real control over that.*


If that's the case, certainly puts the leadership in a less-firm position to be able to speak for the mass, no?


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I've seen that, but Twitter also "said" Morneau & the Commish of the RCMP were related
> 
> If that's the case, certainly puts the leadership in a less-firm position to be able to speak for the mass, no?


I’m sure it will come up at Monday’s injunction hearing.


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> For hygiene reasons or political?


Hygiene


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Keep in mind, this Freedom Convoy is a variation of the massive anti vaccine mandates protests that have been doting major European capitals for months. Nobody heard about them in Canada and the US for obvious narrative reasons. There are now European and Australian truck convoys planned, so no matter how many times the media and government calls them racist, it isn't going to stop until the mandates are gone.


I mean why do we even have measures anymore? I was just out downtown, at a brewery, place was packed.

My spouse has continued to work throughout the pandemic, in an essential service so she works with the public on a day to day basis. I have worked the entire pandemic and have only been working from home the past two weeks because I finally got posted to a non-frontline unit.

Omicron didn't overwhelm the hospitals, Delta didn't overwhelm the hospitals.  Government Policy has lagged since the beginning of this thing.  From my position, nothing we are doing at this time makes any sense and the entire Country has become a bunch of hypochondriacs.  

I for one hope the Freedom Convoy results in the end of the endless Security Theatre we are trapped in.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean why do we even have measures anymore? I was just out downtown, at a brewery, place was packed.
> 
> My spouse has continued to work throughout the pandemic, in an essential service so she works with the public on a day to day basis. I have worked the entire pandemic and have only been working from home the past two weeks because I finally got posted to a non-frontline unit.
> 
> ...


Reduction of measures was already started.  Moving to living with this is starting.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Omicron didn't overwhelm the hospitals, Delta didn't overwhelm the hospitals.  Government Policy has lagged since the beginning of this thing.  From my position, nothing we are doing at this time makes any sense and the entire Country has become a bunch of hypochondriacs.



Public health measures imposed to limit spread of disease meant that hospitals were not fully overwhelmed.  That's not a success measure.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Several people arrested for bringing gas to 'Freedom Convoy' demonstrators in Ottawa, police say
					

Demonstrators have been using vehicles, wagons and sleds to transport gasoline cans and propane canisters to trucks inside the 'red zone' around Parliament Hill.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Feb 2022)

And lets be serious, this is an anti-Trudeau thing more then mandates....


----------



## MilEME09 (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Several people arrested for bringing gas to 'Freedom Convoy' demonstrators in Ottawa, police say
> 
> 
> Demonstrators have been using vehicles, wagons and sleds to transport gasoline cans and propane canisters to trucks inside the 'red zone' around Parliament Hill.
> ...


I wonder how many of those vehicles are actually road worth if you started inspecting them? Those fines can get hefty.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Public health measures imposed to limit spread of disease meant that hospitals were not fully overwhelmed.  That's not a success measure.


Did they actually though?  That's the real question.  The results are apparently inconclusive:









						Lockdowns only reduced COVID deaths by 0.2 per cent, Johns Hopkins study finds
					

'We find no evidence that lockdowns, school closures, border closures, and limiting gatherings have had a noticeable effect on COVID-19 mortality'




					nationalpost.com
				




Now people who are pro-lockdown have criticized this study but like everything else it's heavily politicized.  We will likely never know the actual effect of any of these measures or if we do, it will be in 50 years when they aren't subject to redactions, etc.

All I can say is having never worked from home, having conducted actual operations during this time, in places where COVID was def the least of my concern, having had dozens of colleagues get COVID and be fine a week later, the actual impact to the CAF is minimal which is why I don't even know why we have actual work restrictions or are even bothering with it anymore?  We definitely shouldn't be cancelling courses, training, etc. We definitely shouldn't be shutting down base facilities.  

The people that have been working from home are living in a bubble.  They don't realize there have been people that have worked throughout this thing and haven't magically died or gotten very ill.  

I think it made a lot of sense at the beginning of the pandemic to be cautious, especially when we didn't know enough about the disease, now not so much.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And lets be serious, this is an anti-Trudeau thing more then mandates....


I agree completely.  I personally couldn't give a crap about the politics or Trudeau.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Protesters attempted to burn down an apartment building in downtown Ottawa.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473045965815812


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Protesters attempted to burn down an apartment building in downtown Ottawa.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473045965815812


Random Twitter feed, were they actually protesters?  Who the heck knows?


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Originally reported at 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490356171643006976
Per the first thread I posted, 

"After a night of  blaring horns and fireworks until 4AM, some residents had yelled & pleaded with protesters outside to stop. As the fire was being lit, a tenant walked by and nervously asked who they were. One admitted being part of the convoy protests."


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> One admitted being part of the convoy protests."


"How convenient"....did he admit to being the nazi flag bearer also?


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Apparently some security footage and some pretty obvious faces that could be identified.  Assuming it is legit the police should be able to find these guys. I really don’t get tapping the doors shut. Or why that apartment. 

As mentioned before, some people take advantage of the chaos to push their own crap. 

Not seing this in the news cycle.  And not seeing if the tweeter contacted police.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

There is a (non-verified by Twitter) OPS officer who reached out, moving the conversation to DMs.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> There is a (non-verified by Twitter) OPS officer who reached out, moving the conversation to DMs.


I’m not saying it’s fake.  But the media has been all over every and all infraction they can get their hands on.  I find it odd that this wasn’t picked up given the amount of alleged witnesses.  Or why one no would call the police.  Although there are some places in center town that likely don’t want police attention in the first place so that might be part of the issue.

I guess we’ll see where this goes.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apparently some security footage and some pretty obvious faces that could be identified.  Assuming it is legit the police should be able to find these guys. I really don’t get tapping the doors shut. Or why that apartment.
> 
> As mentioned before, some people take advantage of the chaos to push their own crap.
> 
> Not seing this in the news cycle.  And not seeing if the tweeter contacted police.


Never let a good crisis go to waste 😎

My personal opinion is a lot of the Police Action or Inaction in this case has to do with budgets and politics.

"Sorry we couldn't do anything, remember last time there was a big protest we were told ACAB and we shouldn't do anything"

As for the media, they aren't really helping using language like insurrection.

Insurrection - a violent uprising against an authority or government.

This is definitely the least violent insurrection in human history LOL.

*"But the fireworks and smoke!"*

so an average Champions League Soccer Match...


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

CBC reporter Judy Trinh is reporting that the fuel depot (mostly diesel and propane) at the east-end pall park parking lot where a command centre of sorts for the protest has been established is being dismantled and carted away by Ottawa police, with support from the fire department.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490484611574554626


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Never let a good crisis go to waste 😎
> 
> My personal opinion is a lot of the Police Action or Inaction in this case has to do with budgets and politics.
> 
> ...


I would agree but last time we had something even remotely the same the police arrested everyone after 3 days.

OPS internal politics may be an issue though.  They have huge work culture issues at this time.

I don’t see this as an insurrection by any means.  I mean they actually sent a letter asking the GG to remove the PM so I would hardly qualify that as anything other than a fundamental lack of understanding about how our system works. 

But it has turned into an occupation and unlawful assembly in my mind.


----------



## MilEME09 (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> CBC reporter Judy Trinh is reporting that the fuel depot (mostly diesel and propane) at the east-end pall park parking lot where a command centre of sorts for the protest has been established is being dismantled and carted away by Ottawa police, with support from the fire department.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490484611574554626


Taking out their logistical support is smart, eventually you bleed them dry. But by the same token if they run out if fuel, then OPS will have to tow them all out


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Police target fuel supply for 'Freedom Convoy' demonstration in Ottawa
					

Protesters say police seized 3,200 litres of fuel during a raid at the Ottawa Baseball Stadium on Coventry Road Sunday evening.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike (6 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> if they run out if fuel, then OOS will have to tow them all out



Someone more mechanically inclined than I can give the definitive answer, but maybe if you you put the ignition on Run for half a minute ( after adding fuel ) , that will prime the engine. Turn if off, then crank. It may have to be repeated a few times. Probably have to use the primer pump and bleed the air as well.

Not saying that will work. But, I've seen diesels restarted without needing a tow.

But, that was a long time ago. Been a lot of mechanical changes to engines since then.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> But, that was a long time ago. Been a lot of changes since then.



Not many Ford model T's around these days 😉




Regarding the police changing tactics and moving in, who's call is that really? Is the police chief the final authority here or is the chief taking direction from politicians when it comes to protests?


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And lets be serious, this is an anti-Trudeau thing more then mandates....


QFTFT

FYI, here's what OPS is sharing publicly as of 2109E (highlights mine -- archived link in case previous link doesn't work & attached) ...


> The Ottawa Police Service has made multiple arrests in relation to several enforcement actions related to the ongoing demonstration.
> 
> On Sunday:
> 
> ...


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

For those not living in downtown Ottawa, here's a brief sample for what's been going on for the past week or so.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473872445038592


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Brian Lilley has picked up on the arson story.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490493357390536711


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> For those not living in downtown Ottawa, here's a brief sample for what's been going on for the past week or so.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473872445038592


I mean.... I live by a speedway, that's my neighborhood every weekend 🤣


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> For those not living in downtown Ottawa, here's a brief sample for what's been going on for the past week or so.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473872445038592


You know people actually live in Victoria, right??


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile, shit going down in Toronto ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490381536532832259


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, shit going down in Toronto ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490381536532832259


What is it about this event and human feces and urination?


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Taking out their logistical support is smart, eventually you bleed them dry. But by the same token if they run out if fuel, then OPS will have to tow them all out


Using the OC Transpo wreckers since the commercial tow/recovery community gave OPS the 🖕🏼.

Still interesting no more word on the arson allegation.  Maybe OPS and By-Law officers were to busy getting ready for the upcoming flurry of ‘loud horn’/‘faulty muffler’/stopping in a No Stopping zone tickets… EDIT: Beyond Brian Lilley commenting about it being terrifying…but not terrifying enough to call the police or fire services??? 

🤔


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Using the OC Transpo wreckers since the commercial tow/recovery community gave OPS the 🖕🏼.
> 
> Still interesting no more word on the arson allegation.  Maybe OPS and By-Law officers were to busy getting ready for the upcoming flurry of ‘loud horn’/‘faulty muffler’/stopping in a No Stopping zone tickets…
> 
> 🤔


Imagine... people practicing civil disobedience being disobedient LOL

It's literally the entire point of protesting.  Like do people not understand what a protest is?🤣


----------



## QV (6 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And lets be serious, this is an anti-Trudeau thing more then mandates....


Probably. Because this pandemic business is now all political. The two go hand in hand now.


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Imagine... people practicing civil disobedience being disobedient LOL
> 
> It's literally the entire point of protesting.  Like do people not understand what a protest is?🤣


I really don’t think this current crop of protesters do.  It’s one thing to express and protest.  It becomes something else when it turns to occupation and extortion.  (Not my quote but appropriate).


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> For those not living in downtown Ottawa, here's a brief sample for what's been going on for the past week or so.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473872445038592



Montréal: “Pfffft, tiens-toi ma bière, hostie!”


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Karen wants to talk to the manager.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490519214574252032


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

I'll take "Social Media Team really needs to look at their their scheduled and promoted tweet plan" - this just popped up on my Twitter feed.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1486745069013147653


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> What is it about this event and human feces and urination?


Kinda fitting given the pandemic started with a shortage of TP.  Maybe they never moved past that point.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I really don’t think this current crop of protesters do.  It’s one thing to express and protest.  It becomes something else when it turns to occupation and extortion.  (Not my quote but appropriate).


This entire thing has been percolating under the surface for a while.  As I said in earlier posts, some of us have been warning people for quite some time that this would be the consequence of continued restrictions and coercion against groups that didn't want to comply.

You didn't listen to us and now when crap hits the proverbial fan you want something done about it.  Easy to say do something when you aren't the one that has to pull the trigger.  This protest will probably be suppressed but the next one will be even bigger and it will reach a point where it can't be contained.  You don't attempt to coerce 10% of the population in to doing something they don't want to do and not expect blow back.

POLITICAL DIALOGUE is the only way out of this mess long term.


----------



## Furniture (6 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Karen wants to talk to the manager.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490519214574252032


The protests have definitely attracted some "characters"...


----------



## Altair (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> The protests have definitely attracted some "characters"...


Yes, the past, present and potentially future leader of the CPC.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yes, the past, present and potentially future leader of the CPC.


Not helpful and definitely trolling.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> The protests have definitely attracted some "characters"...


All kidding aside, I think that's an important framing - this is a protest where some of the participants are truckers; it is not a truckers protest.  Lots of different groups involved.


----------



## Altair (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Not helpful and definitely trolling.


What, are there not pictures of Andrew Scheer and Pierre Poilievre supporting this protest?

Or Candace Bergen being supportive in parliament?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you as you clearly don't want to talk about the issues and just want to go full partisan political.  That's you're prerogative but honestly it's pretty immature.

You do you though 😉


----------



## Remius (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> This entire thing has been percolating under the surface for a while.  As I said in earlier posts, some of us have been warning people for quite some time that this would be the consequence of continued restrictions and coercion against groups that didn't want to comply.
> 
> You didn't listen to us and now when crap hits the proverbial fan you want something done about it.  Easy to say do something when you aren't the one that has to pull the trigger.  This protest will probably be suppressed but the next one will be even bigger and it will reach a point where it can't be contained.  You don't attempt to coerce 10% of the population in to doing something they don't want to do and not expect blow back.
> 
> POLITICAL DIALOGUE is the only way out of this mess long term.


The fUck Trudeau signs seem to indicate that dialogue is not on the table.   I’m not sure why you say that I didn’t listen to you,  I figured YOU had common sense and would would see that we actually have things like elections to make change.  We had one.  During a pandemic under restrictions.  The other side won.  One side unhappy and only proving how much worse they are than the other side is.  We’ve seen it in the US and we are seeing it here. 

10% percent can use the actual systems and freedoms to express their anger.  It doesn’t give them free reign to do what they want when they don’t agree with the 90%.    

I get the frustration but I am opposed to the tactics.  Extortion is not the way out either.  So when dialogue gets serious I’ll listen but so far it’s been misinformation led by bad actors.


----------



## Altair (6 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm not even going to bother arguing with you as you clearly don't want to talk about the issues and just want to go full partisan political.  That's you're prerogative but honestly it's pretty immature.
> 
> You do you though 😉


Saying the CPC having members, in this case a previois leader, the current leader and leadership candidate supportijg the convoyis not partisan, its simply stating the facts.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The fUck Trudeau signs seem to indicate that dialogue is not on the table.   I’m not sure why you say that I didn’t listen to you,  I figured YOU had common sense and would would see that we actually have things like elections to make change.  We had one.  During a pandemic under restrictions.  The other side won.  One side unhappy and only proving how much worse they are than the other side is.  We’ve seen it in the US and we are seeing it here.


*** Trudeau or *** Harper,  I fail to see the difference but maybe you can elaborate?  I don't really give a crap about the politics or who is in charge.  In fact, maybe try putting your politics aside for five minutes and doing an actual estimate of the situation?

I'm looking at this issue from a pure security standpoint.  You have 10% of the population that doesn't want to comply with your laws, so how do you make them comply?  

7 Questions:

1. What is the situation and how does it affect me?

2. What have I been told to do and why?

3. What effects do I need to achieve and what direction must I give to develop my plan?

4. Where can I best accomplish each action or effect?

5. What resources do I need to accomplish each action or effect?

6. When and where do the actions take place in relation to each other?

7. What control measures do I need to impose?

Have we actually answered these questions with our current COAs?  Has the situation changed?  

It's all well and good to huff and puff and say "but we have elections!"  You can say that to me and I would agree with you..... because I'm a reasonable person.  Most people are not reasonable though.  

You need to start looking at this as a security issue, not a political issue.  My estimate is the cure we are using might be at the point where it's worse than the disease.  



Remius said:


> 10% percent can use the actual systems and freedoms to express their anger.  It doesn’t give them free reign to do what they want when they don’t agree with the 90%.
> 
> I get the frustration but I am opposed to the tactics.  Extortion is not the way out either.  So when dialogue gets serious I’ll listen but so far it’s been misinformation led by bad actors.


I am also opposed to the tactics but then again, the underlying cause of this is the current emergency measures and various legislations so what exactly are the Government's options?


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> *** Trudeau or *** Harper,  I fail to see the difference but maybe you can elaborate?  I don't really give a crap about the politics or who is in charge.  In fact, maybe try putting your politics aside for five minutes and doing an actual estimate of the situation?
> 
> I'm looking at this issue from a pure security standpoint.  You have 10% of the population that doesn't want to comply with your laws, so how do you make them comply?
> 
> ...


My politics have been set aside.  I don’t like Trudeau.  I voted against him.  I’ve advocated here for the unvaccinated not to be denied health care despite some calling for that.  I’ve stated that a compromise on vaccinations was mandatory rapid testing.  I’ve agreed that Trudeau’s rhetoric   

By saying this is a security issue do you mean that the 10% are a threat to security?  I certainly think the current protest is a security issue.  Which is why it needs to end.  Maybe the ottawa occupiers should take their cue from the Quebec City ones who successfully protested, made their point and went home.  They’ll be back, yes, but seems more effective than what is happening here.

No way the government is going to give in now.  (In fairness I doubt they were going to regardless) and the gg is not dissolving government either.  As far as the city response is concerned I don’t think they care about the politics one way or another now.  They just want these guys gone.  

It’s been 10 days now and the only people that have been disrupted are the people that live and work in one of the poorest residential areas of the city.


----------



## lenaitch (7 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not many Ford model T's around these days 😉
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The only body that has oversight and policy authority over the police service is the Police Services Board (not even mayor and council) but they are specifically prohibited from giving operational direction by the Police Services Act.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> What exactly goes above equality? A group protests pipelines.  Don’t want it on their land and that is racist?
> 
> Or are you talking about special programs like say university grants and scholarships?


I don’t buy into the whole treaty system, its fundamentally racist at its core. As is the indian act and all the provisions that go along with it. One country, one level of citizenship. We should all be equals, not some pigs are more equal than others.

As to it being a pipeline protest, what it was actually about was a (ultimately successful) power grab by unelected hereditary chiefs over a democratically elected group of chiefs who had approved the pipeline going through their lands like every other band along the route. Lots of other drama in there like the hereditary chiefs kicking out certain ones who were approving of the pipeline.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Feb 2022)

LOL, feel the burn much JT?









						India's Ambassador To Canada Just Tore Justin Trudeau A New A-Hole
					

The whole world is turning against Canada's Commie Soyboy, and man, is it not a beautiful thing to see?




					www.bitchute.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> LOL, feel the burn much JT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Karma... it's a beeyotch 

India summons Canada envoy after Trudeau backs protests​Tens of thousands of Indian farmers have been trying for more than a week to encircle the capital New Delhi in protest at new laws on farm produce trading.

There have been clashes with police and Trudeau released a Twitter video this week calling the events "concerning" and saying farmers should be allowed to stage peaceful protests.









						India summons Canada envoy after Trudeau backs protests
					

India on Friday summoned Canada's ambassador and warned of serious damage to diplomatic ties after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau commented on growing protests by farmers, authorities said.



					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> My politics have been set aside.  I don’t like Trudeau.  I voted against him.  I’ve advocated here for the unvaccinated not to be denied health care despite some calling for that.  I’ve stated that a compromise on vaccinations was mandatory rapid testing.  I’ve agreed that Trudeau’s rhetoric
> 
> By saying this is a security issue do you mean that the 10% are a threat to security?  I certainly think the current protest is a security issue.  Which is why it needs to end.  Maybe the ottawa occupiers should take their cue from the Quebec City ones who successfully protested, made their point and went home.  They’ll be back, yes, but seems more effective than what is happening here.


Yes that is exactly what I am saying.  What I am actually thinking is how far is the Government willing to take this?

The Government(s) can pass as many laws as they want and using Emergency Powers they have wide latitude but there are consequences to those decisions.

People shouldn't be surprised or shocked when the 10% of the population that didn't agree with the consensus and have had punitive action taken against them decide to cause a disturbance.  


Remius said:


> No way the government is going to give in now.  (In fairness I doubt they were going to regardless) and the gg is not dissolving government either.  As far as the city response is concerned I don’t think they care about the politics one way or another now.  They just want these guys gone.
> 
> It’s been 10 days now and the only people that have been disrupted are the people that live and work in one of the poorest residential areas of the city.



I don't think the vast majority of people protesting in Ottawa wants the Government to be dissolved.  Yes there are a few crazies who will say that but there always will be.

What they actually want is for emergency powers to begin to be walked back and for the respective Government(s) to announce how they plan to do that.  

In other words:  *They want them to Govern and state their Intent*

The evidence and numbers are out there for all to see, we are passed peak deaths for this wave, peak hospitalizations and cases are rapidly trending downward.  The World didn't end, *the hospitals didn't collapse, *which was the stated purpose of the restrictions in the first place.  

So why are we still in this State of Emergency?  What's the plan to get us out of it?  How is it I can turn on DAZN and watch a Six Nations Rugby Match over in merry old Scotland where everyone is carrying on normally, yet I am sitting here in Canada having to sit in a pub and put a mask on to walk to the bathroom and lie to myself that it does anything?  Or better yet, show a vaccine passport to a hostess, when we know it doesn't mean anything WRT virus transmission? 

We are at the point now where the 10% who are still scared should be told to stay home and take extra precautions if they feel the need, everyone else should be free to carry on living their lives.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

A great article on why Denmark lifted all their COVID Restrictions:

How Denmark Decided COVID Isn’t a Critical Threat to Society



> *Derek Thompson: *Denmark just lifted all COVID restrictions. What justifies this decision?
> 
> *Michael Bang Petersen:* Our hospitals are not being overwhelmed. We have excellent data surveillance of our hospital system in Denmark, and when we look at the number of people in ICUs, it’s dropping. We have a lot of people in hospitals with positive tests, but most of them are testing positive with COVID rather than being there _because of _COVID. They’re also in the hospital for a much shorter duration than previous waves. The number of people being treated for pneumonia is a critical indicator, and that’s going down as well.  The decoupling of cases and hospitalizations comes from two things. First, Denmark has very high vaccine uptake, with 81 percent of the adult population having two doses and 61 percent having received a booster shot. Second, Omicron is a milder variant. That combination of high vaccine coverage plus a milder variant means this wave isn’t stressing our hospital systems as much.
> 
> ...


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yes that is exactly what I am saying.  What I am actually thinking is how far is the Government willing to take this?
> 
> The Government(s) can pass as many laws as they want and using Emergency Powers they have wide latitude but there are consequences to those decisions.
> 
> ...


Ah.  Except this same 10 percent that from the beginning claimed this was a hoax.  

Except there is a roadmap out of this.  Just that 10 percent didn’t agree with it.   Based on their own bad science.  

Restrictions are being lifted.  In a phased approach. Just that 10 percent missed that part.

Hospitals weren’t overrun because of measures put in place.

Who cares what happens in Denmark or Scotland?  Different countries.  In Canada we have the 2nd lowest COVID  death rate in world. 

 In the end lives saved matter. 

At the end of the day we live in a democracy.  That 10 percent needs to remember that.  Otherwise they are exactly what people describe them as. 

But I digress.  Speaking from a local level. They have overstayed their welcome.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Feb 2022)

*Opinion*:

I'm with those who are saying that Ottawa mayor Jim Watson and Ottawa Police Chief Peter Sloly have provided a masterclass in how to not handle a protest/demonstration.

But, I think it needs to be remembered that the hymnal from which the mayor and police chief are, still, singing was written by Prime Minister Trudeau and his team ~ this is a tiny fringe thingy, it doesn't matter. Oops!

Everyone, including the protest 'organizers,' if that's the right word, misunderstood and underestimated what a blue-collar protest would be like. On the "forces of order" side there was ~ in City Hall, in Queens Park and on Parliament Hill ~ a total, 100%, complete absence of leadership and management.


----------



## McG (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The World didn't end, *the hospitals didn't collapse, *which was the stated purpose of the restrictions in the first place.


So the restrictions achieved their purpose. That’s good. I don’t understand why you keep circling back to the lack of catastrophic failure as proof of excess measures. I mean, reporting in several provinces put thier medical systems at or approaching max capacity due to anti-mask/anti-vax types. And there were also triage decisions across multiple provinces that will let cancer patients die to save anti-mask & anti-vax people.

Do we need really catastrophic failure to look back and say that maybe the restrictions were not to much? Should we also be looking at this from the perspective of risk to myself and my inner circle?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah.  Except this same 10 percent that from the beginning claimed this was a hoax.


Some claimed it was a hoax, some just don't like being told what to do, some have other reasons for not willing cooperating.  That doesn't change the fact they aren't in compliance at this time.



Remius said:


> Except there is a roadmap out of this.  Just that 10 percent didn’t agree with it.   Based on their own bad science.


I would very much like to see this roadmap. When exactly are we lifting vaccine passports?  It certainly hasn't been announced where I live, in fact they just doubled down and extended them to the 30th of June.

This is exactly the point I am making: the goal posts have been shifting constantly, the messaging has been completely inconsistent.  



Remius said:


> Restrictions are being lifted.  In a phased approach. Just that 10 percent missed that part.


Are they?  Again what's the plan?  It would be interesting to see this because the Federal Government just imposed more restrictions (which was the entire reason this entire thing in Ottawa kicked off)


Remius said:


> Hospitals weren’t overrun because of measures put in place.


Very debatable.  There is a lot of evidence pointing to the fact the measures we have taken had negligible impact, I linked one such recent study earlier.


Remius said:


> Who cares what happens in Denmark or Scotland?  Different countries.  In Canada we have the 2nd lowest COVID  death rate in world.


Where did you haul that number from?  Also, there is a lot of evidence that we have significantly underreported our COVID Deaths and that our death rate is actually much much higher than what has been reported.









						Canada's real death toll from COVID-19 may far exceed official tally: report
					

The number of Canadians who have died because of the COVID-19 pandemic is likely double that shown in the official numbers, according to a disturbing new report published by the Royal Society of Canada.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Alberta leads country in excess death rates during pandemic: U of T researcher
					

Dr. Tara Moriarty said significant underreporting of COVID-19 deaths is commonplace across Canada and in other high-income countries.




					calgaryherald.com
				




Ever think that maybe the books got cooked?Canadian Exceptionalism especially when comparing ourselves to our Southern Brethren is a powerful tool.


Remius said:


> At the end of the day we live in a democracy.  That 10 percent needs to remember that.  Otherwise they are exactly what people describe them as.
> 
> But I digress.  Speaking from a local level. They have overstayed their welcome.



Yes and what does Democracy rely on?  A Social Contract. This is Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau 101 boss. The people who are upset believe their social contract has been violated.  How do we win enough of them back over to eliminate this problem we have now created through legislation?

You can huff and puff about it all you want and about those people.  That isn't going to make things any better, it's probably actually going to make it worse 😉.

10% of 38 million is 3.8 million.  That's a lot of people you are going to need to coerce.  In a Country with only a 100,000 sworn police officers, one of the lowest per capita in the World.

Do you see what I am getting at here?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> So the restrictions achieved their purpose. That’s good. I don’t understand why you keep circling back to the lack of catastrophic failure as proof of excess measures. I mean, reporting in several provinces put thier medical systems at or approaching max capacity due to anti-mask/anti-vax types. And there were also triage decisions across multiple provinces that will let cancer patients die to save anti-mask & anti-vax people.
> 
> Do we need really catastrophic failure to look back and say that maybe the restrictions were not to much? Should we also be looking at this from the perspective of risk to myself and my inner circle?


Again, show me an actual QUALITATIVE Analysis that these measures are an actual effective Public Health tool at this point in time?

Public Health ≠ ONLY COVID-19

If you want to look at COVID-19 in isolation or as the single factor to consider, sure Lockdowns could be considered effective.

There are way more factors to consider, too many to rationalize in a post here.  

My Opinion:

The long term damage being caused by continued use of restrictions will far outweigh the impact of immediate lives saved.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> *Opinion*:
> 
> I'm with those who are saying that Ottawa mayor Jim Watson and Ottawa Police Chief Peter Sloly have provided a masterclass in how to not handle a protest/demonstration.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree.  This isn't some fringe thing either, while not majority, recent polling shows 32% of Canadians "have a lot in common" with the protesters.









						Freedom Convoy: GoFundMe seizes funds of Canada 'occupation'
					

The crowdfunding website cites reports of "unlawful activity", a claim rejected by protest organisers.



					www.bbc.com
				




The working class in this Country are sick of this.  I grew up in a mining town and most of my old mates work fly-in/fly-out jobs and have been living a proverbial hell for 2+ years dealing with restrictions while others sit at home and get fat off the Govt Teat.  

They went along with restrictions, got their vaccines and did what they were told.  Now they are fed up with it.  They as a collective are 100% behind the protesters.  

Everyone can continue to bury their heads in the sand if they want but the problem isn't going to go away.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Feb 2022)

You want timeliness? ?   Guess you could study hard,  buy a lab, and figure out a meaningful dialogue with a virus strain......

It's time to end stuff....but with caution....

Edit : and that goes for those who think parking a truck in the middle of a road helps.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Do you see what I am getting at here?


Yes.  that 10 percent can have a tantrum and we should just give them what they want.  Got it.  

Remember that next time certain groups block pipelines, railways or take over a golf course.  I didn’t support any of those things and I don’t approve of this.   But some are comfortable being hypocrites (with a few even calling for lethal force at the time) depending on whose team they support.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Feb 2022)

We were discussing this at a family dinner and I our forward the idea that we have "fear fatigue:" we were, and in any cases still are, rightfully, correctly, afraid of what a viral pandemic might do to us, ourselves, to our communities, to our health care system and to our society. We went along, largely willingly, with draconian measures. But nothing worked. And we begen to lose confidence in elected leaders and in those who advised them. The fear remained but now it began to be mixed with a fear of authority and a new fear: the fear that those advising those in authority didn't have any useful answers. Then, late last fall, around Christmas, around the arrival of omicron variant we got really tired of being afraid.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Yes.  that 10 percent can have a tantrum and we should just give them what they want.  Got it.
> 
> Remember that next time certain groups block pipelines, railways or take over a golf course.  I didn’t support any of those things and I don’t approve of this.   But some are comfortable being hypocrites (with a few even calling for lethal force at the time) depending on whose team they support.


I am not saying give them what they want.  I am saying we shouldn't be surprised that we have a high level of a civil disobedience as a result of policies that have been enacted.  The fact people are shocked by this with a big "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING" is what surprises me 🤣.

Now the question is, what are we going to do about it? Do you want the Police to go in and beat them with billy clubs or do you want to negotiate with them?  All are in the realms of possibility.

I can tell you what didn't get the railway blockades you mentioned to end.... Excessive Use of Force.  In fact, it was negotiation and a signing of a Memorandum of Understanding that ultimately ended that crisis.

I'm trying my best to ignore the political aspects of this because like I said earlier, I don't really care about the politicians.  Doug Ford, Justin Trudeau, John Horgan, Jason Kenney, François Legault, Erin O'Toole, Pierre Poilievre, Jagmeet Singh, etc are all cut from the same cloth, they just wear different colours.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I am not saying give them what they want.  I am saying we shouldn't be surprised that we have a high level of a civil disobedience as a result of policies that have been enacted.  The fact people are shocked by this with a big "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING" is what surprises me 🤣.
> 
> Now the question is, what are we going to do about it? Do you want the Police to go in and beat them with billy clubs or do you want to negotiate with them?  All are in the realms of possibility.
> 
> ...


Bingo!


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I am not saying give them what they want.  I am saying we shouldn't be surprised that we have a high level of a civil disobedience as a result of policies that have been enacted.  The fact people are shocked by this with a big "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING" is what surprises me 🤣.
> 
> Now the question is, what are we going to do about it? Do you want the Police to go in and beat them with billy clubs or do you want to negotiate with them?  All are in the realms of possibility.
> 
> ...


True.  To be honest I am not actually surprised.  It validates a lot of opinions about that side of the argument. We’ve had coffe shop talk here on this site about which side right or left are the bigger threat when they don’t get their way. 

Events in the US have shown what the 10 percent will do when upset. 

The City leadership utterly failed to deal with this appropriately.  But they are starting to take action.  Starve and freeze them out is fine by me.  No need to smack heads.  Arrest the trouble makers and ticket them into oblivion as long as they keep violating laws.  

Other cities in the country have learned from Ottawa’s incompetence and those protests were never allowed to turn into occupations.  Lessons learned.  

The feds will likely not talk to these guys or negotiate.  Demands to overturn the government is a non starter. Restrictions are being started.  

You talk about négociations but this group isn’t interested.  They made demands and ultimatums.  They didn’t say “let’s discuss a middle ground”. They showed up with extremist leaders, fuck Trudeau signs and a goal to hold the city hostage until demands are met.   I doubt they would accept anything Trudeau et al have to say anyways short of giving in to all demands.  They’ve said as much.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> We were discussing this at a family dinner and I our forward the idea that we have "fear fatigue:" we were, and in any cases still are, rightfully, correctly, afraid of what a viral pandemic might do to us, ourselves, to our communities, to our health care system and to our society. We went along, largely willingly, with draconian measures. But nothing worked. And we begen to lose confidence in elected leaders and in those who advised them. The fear remained but now it began to be mixed with a fear of authority and a new fear: the fear that those advising those in authority didn't have any useful answers. Then, late last fall, around Christmas, around the arrival of omicron variant we got really tired of being afraid.


I've been tired of being afraid for a while.  Well, I haven't been afraid at all in a while.  I've also been working the entire time this thing has been going on and for some brief moments of that time, did some pretty dangerous stuff. 

In my travels and at work, I've also come in to contact with many plague rats because most of us have caught the disease at some point (I am one of the few I work with who hasn't tested positive).  

Thankfully all of them were healthy fighting age males who seemed to be largely unaffected by this disease.  So knowing the statistics, the fact I am triple vaccinated, the fact that I have continued to work as has my wife the entire pandemic, why should I even be remotely afraid at this point?


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

And ANTIFA and BLM were so much better. Same with the ones who tore down statues and burnt churches.
I think the whole trucker thing is silly for the record.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> True.  To be honest I am not actually surprised.  It validates a lot of opinions about that side of the argument. We’ve had coffe shop talk here on this site about which side right or left are the bigger threat when they don’t get their way.
> 
> Events in the US have shown what the 10 percent will do when upset.
> 
> ...


Every group ever in the history of conflict has made demands.  






That's just how negotiations commence.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> And ANTIFA and BLM were so much better. Same with the ones who tore down statues and burnt churches.
> I think the whole trucker thing is silly for the record.


It's all silly @OldSolduer  but it's all just a symptom of a breakdown in healthy political dialogue.

The sad part about our politics atm is I don't think any of the political parties in our Halls of Power do a very good job representing any of us ATM.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's all silly @OldSolduer  but it's all just a symptom of a breakdown in healthy political dialogue.
> 
> The sad part about our politics atm is I don't think any of the political parties in our Halls of Power do a very good job representing any of us ATM.



100% This amongst other things you have said.  

Its all a symptom of our shitty electoral/governmental system.


----------



## lenaitch (7 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I don’t buy into the whole treaty system, its fundamentally racist at its core. As is the indian act and all the provisions that go along with it. One country, one level of citizenship. We should all be equals, not some pigs are more equal than others.
> 
> As to it being a pipeline protest, what it was actually about was a (ultimately successful) power grab by unelected hereditary chiefs over a democratically elected group of chiefs who had approved the pipeline going through their lands like every other band along the route. Lots of other drama in there like the hereditary chiefs kicking out certain ones who were approving of the pipeline.


Not that I'm disagreeing, the treaty 'system' and Indian Act no doubt create inequity, but you would be hard pressed to find any FN willing to eliminate either, or even agree how they should be re-written.  Many FNs do not accept that they are pigs in your analogy.

It is a matter of perspective on who power-grabbed who.  Elected councils band councils are a child of the Indian Act (regional, provincial, etc. FN bodies are not legislatively supported).  I'm all for them to sort out their internal politics and have the government deal with the winner.

There have been several commentators, Aboriginal and others, who claim that this protest sets a double standard and that if it was an Aboriginal protest the police would have quickly gone in with force.  I can't think of any FN protest or blockade in recent history that hasn't been protracted, and most, if not all, ultimate police action was supported by an injunction.  In some cases, FN blockades are complicated by a claim of right, not all of which have been settled by the courts.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> You talk about négociations but this group isn’t interested. They made demands and ultimatums. They didn’t say “let’s discuss a middle ground”. They showed up with extremist leaders, fuck Trudeau signs and a goal to hold the city hostage until demands are met. I doubt they would accept anything Trudeau et al have to say anyways short of giving in to all demands. They’ve said as much.


If everyone else was being reasonable, you would have a very sound basis upon which to critique the protesters.

However, there were unreasonable positions all around - local handling of the situation was essentially absent (cops in cruisers calmly watching the honking and nary a peep from the mayor or other local officials); media focusing on the singleton troublemakers (Nazi, Confederate flags, etc.) to add conflict angle to feed their numbers; and then the PM who pretty much out the gate marginalized the protestors as an inconsequential and irrelevant fringe element by leveraging the outliers (Nazi guy, etc.) to gaslight the entire protest.

Shame on protest organizers for the discordant aim of the protest and an incredibly delayed press/public engagement plan.

Shame on Mayor Watson and Chief Sloly for perhaps the worst showing of handling a situation at the municipal level ever.

And shame on Justin Trudeau for a gut reaction to quickly and sweepingly dismiss the entire group and gaslight them as destructive to Canadian society - no coming back from that when you give not a shred of credit to the voiced concerns, as if that would make it all go away.  Hard for everyone to see ‘Sunny Ways’ if the key personality in leading everyone to those sunny ways explicitly excludes a not insignificant number of citizens. 

$0.02


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> So the restrictions achieved their purpose. That’s good. I don’t understand why you keep circling back to the lack of catastrophic failure as proof of excess measures. I mean, reporting in several provinces put thier medical systems at or approaching max capacity due to anti-mask/anti-vax types. And there were also triage decisions across multiple provinces that will let cancer patients die to save anti-mask & anti-vax people.
> 
> Do we need really catastrophic failure to look back and say that maybe the restrictions were not to much? Should we also be looking at this from the perspective of risk to myself and my inner circle?


Bingo.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> And ANTIFA and BLM were so much better.


You're right, and it's critical that ANY protest keep a grip on the worst elements.

That said, people complained about the excesses in those protests, so fair game to complain about the excesses here as well.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

> Do we need really catastrophic failure to look back and say that maybe the restrictions were not to much? Should we also be looking at this from the perspective of risk to myself and my inner circle?



…or “Some of you may lose your jobs or livelihood, but that’s the sacrifice I’m willing to make.”


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Or some of you have chosen to lose your jobs and livelihood but is a sacrifice that YOU were willing to make.


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Or some of you have chosen to lose your jobs and livelihood but is a sacrifice that YOU were willing to make.


Unless you work in a service industry or small business owner that's been consistently locked out of your work.

In other news, OPS pulling away fuel is actually going to make their job harder. Tow truck drivers are unwilling to bite the hand that feeds them to get between the police and the people that pay their bills on a daily basis (its not the "they're being threatened meme"). CBC is also reporting that without driver assistance, Just the 40 trucks on Kent Street with driver assistance is upwards of 10 hours. "Next to impossible" without. But great idea to cut off their fuel so they cannot start the truck and fill the air brakes.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-protest-truck-tow-remove-1.6339652


> Could take several days​With hundreds of trucks parked downtown, removing them all — if it could be done — would still take multiple days of round-the-clock effort.
> 
> Even in a best-case scenario with driver co-operation, it would take at least 10 hours to tow just the 40 trucks on Kent Street, Whan said.
> 
> ...



Most hilarious part of this whole thing has been Liberal/Progressive Twitter:

Liberals/Progressives: Police response to protests has been violent and heavy handed, they should use a new approach and negotiate without violence

OPS: Attempts to negotiate and not use violence against truck protest

Liberals/Progressives: No, we meant no violence against our protests. You should curb stop the Nazi truckers because my Soy Grande Mocca Latte is getting cold when I have to walk further downtown.

OPS: ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …or “Some of you may lose your jobs or livelihood, but that’s the sacrifice I’m willing to make.”





Remius said:


> Or some of you have chosen to lose your jobs and livelihood but is a sacrifice that YOU were willing to make.


One coin, two sides ....


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Unless you work in a service industry or small business owner that's been consistently locked out of your work.
> 
> In other news, OPS pulling away fuel is actually going to make their job harder. Tow truck drivers are unwilling to bite the hand that feeds them to get between the police and the people that pay their bills on a daily basis (its not the "they're being threatened meme"). CBC is also reporting that without driver assistance, Just the 40 trucks on Kent Street with driver assistance is upwards of 10 hours. "Next to impossible" without. But great idea to cut off their fuel so they cannot start the truck and fill the air brakes.
> 
> ...


Except fuel isn’t the issue.  Them locking their air brakes is.   Fuel or no fuel they aren’t moving.  

But fuel deprives them of heat.  

I don’t approve of violence against them.  But ticket, impound and arrest anyone breaking the laws.  Choke the food and fuel supply and start making things uncomfortable.  

If these people had not held the locals hostage I’d be more sympathetic to an extent.  The court injunction that is being asked for isn’t even to remove the protesters it’s to get them to stop honking their horns.  The locals are sick of that and the oh so nice occupiers can’t even give them that.   They aren’t interested in negotiating in good faith.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Or some of you have chosen to lose your jobs and livelihood but is a sacrifice that YOU were willing to make.


Absolutely.

There is an entire spectrum of decisions and consequences out there for many (most?) people out there. 

Some though, have less option space, and even while supporting all levels of governments and the various strata of mandates, have had their lives notably impacted, in some cases to the extreme.  I have a triple-vaxxed friend who lost his business (barber/stylist) and had to let all his employees go because the restrictions drastically reduced his income to unsustainable levels and he had to close shop.  By the time restrictions were eased, it was a moot point, his business had folded.  His employees were gone and he had gone from small business owner and employer of 8-10, to a casual part-timer having a tough time making ends meet. He complied and supported and did his duty and life was arguably still less than fair to him.  Short of people who got vaccinate, caught COVID and got sick/died, there’s not much more of an unfair part to life than that.

That is to say, that anyone who tries to simplify this whole issue to a black/white, “either you vax with us, or you’re against us” issue is failing to appreciate that there is room for all (and that includes politicians) to consider the full range of choice, rights, responsibilities and consequences to the issue.   I think many, far too many, are still taking an overly-narrow partition of the consideration space on the issue.


----------



## FSTO (7 Feb 2022)

Just caught the tail end of a press conference by the leader of the NDP. Questions being raised about employing the military to clear the streets in Ottawa. Did we learn nothing from Oka?


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> ... anyone who tries to simplify this whole issue to a black/white, “either you vax with us, or you’re against us” issue is failing to appreciate that there is room for all (and that includes politicians) to consider the full range of choice, rights, responsibilities and consequences to the issue.   I think many, far too many, are still taking an overly-narrow partition of the consideration space on the issue.


More shades of grey out there than a lot of people want to admit, for sure.


----------



## Haggis (7 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Just caught the tail end of a press conference by the leader of the NDP. Questions being raised about employing the military to clear the streets in Ottawa. Did we learn nothing from Oka?


Apples and oranges. Oka was an overtly armed resistance with a very narrow scope of complaint.  The Warriors made no attempts to portray themselves as peaceful and vowed to resist, violently, lethally, to the end.  The fact that no one was killed or seriously injured on either side is proof that the ACP/ALEA operation was well carried out..


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

It's a mistake to keep stating this is 10% vs 90%.... those numbers are generally used to demonstrate that almost 90% of the people have been vaccinated.  But there is a great many vaccinated people that are against mandates and further restrictions.  

This convoy protest is just the vocal few. There is far more than 10% of the population in this country against mandates and further restrictions. 

It's probably closer to 50/50 for or against mandates/restrictions at this point.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

I just watched an Ottawa city councillor on CBC, and she related several anecdotes about Ottawa citizens who’d been harassed and assaulted. All anecdotal with no statistics. There should be records of arrests or complaints but none of that was quoted. And CBC didn’t ask that either. 
Now I’ve gone on record as saying this protest is silly and it is but I haven’t seen a good solid argument against it. 
The protesters have been vilified. Tried and found guilty by the PM and others.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If these people had not held the locals hostage I’d be more sympathetic to an extent.  The court injunction that is being asked for isn’t even to remove the protesters it’s to get them to stop honking their horns.  The locals are sick of that and the oh so nice occupiers can’t even give them that.   They aren’t interested in negotiating in good faith.



I'm going to say I am not sure I believe you.  First of all no one is being held hostage, you're using the same inflammatory language as the MSM.

Secondly your political slant on this has been pretty evident for a long time.  You can deny it, and maybe you believe it.  But I don't.  No matter how well behaved the protest was you were always going to be against it.  And that's fair, just be who you are.  

I can tell you, on the surface, anyone who is against our COVID restrictions or mandates and doesn't like Trudeau is likely going to get my support.   Once I dig into their motivations that may change.  I am a card carrying member of the CPC, that's been no secret on here.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

If all LEO organizations were half as vigilant in dismantling other protests then I’d be more inclined to comment favourably. The Chief is giving a briefing - he’s making it sound like they hit Juno Beach on D Day. 
He wants the CAF to intervene. That’s on the record in days past
To the Chief’s credit he did say 20 arrests happened and 500 tickets were issued.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> If all LEO organizations were half as vigilant in dismantling other protests then I’d be more inclined to comment favourably. The Chief is giving a briefing - he’s making it sound like they hit Juno Beach on D Day.
> He wants the CAF to intervene. That’s on the record in days past.



Concur on all points.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> If all LEO organizations were half as vigilant in dismantling other protests then I’d be more inclined to comment favourably. The Chief is giving a briefing - he’s making it sound like they hit Juno Beach on D Day.
> He wants the CAF to intervene. That’s on the record in days past.


This isn't a truckers issue. They are doing what they set out to do. 

This isn't a political issue(Federal or Provincial). No government is forced to talk to protestors.

This is a policing issue. Other police forces heard about convoys and said hell no, not in our city and prevented any occupation. 

Ottawa could have done the same. This is a failure on the part of the city and police forces of Ottawa.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Concur on all points.


Thanks. I think this protest was ill conceived from the start and should just go home. You’ve made your point now go home. 

This could get ugly. I never thought I’d see this day.


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Feb 2022)

"One admitted being part of the convoy protests."

Another way the author might have phrased it: "One claimed being part of the convoy protests."


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> This isn't a truckers issue. They are doing what they set out to do.
> 
> This isn't a political issue(Federal or Provincial). No government is forced to talk to protestors.
> 
> ...


I actually do think there is a "political" element to this as well from the Police.  Budgets were apparently supposed to be cut, etc.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Thanks. I think this protest was ill conceived from the start and should just go home. You’ve made your point now go home.
> 
> This could get ugly. I never thought I’d see this day.



I am cool with this, so long as we treat all *non violent* protesters and protests the same way.

Edited to add non violent


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am cool with this, so long as we treat all protesters and protests the same way.


There in lies the problem does it not? 

The Winnipeg Police Service was ordered not to intervene when statues were being torn down in Winnipeg. So much for equal treatment before the law…..


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I actually do think there is a "political" element to this as well from the Police.  Budgets were apparently supposed to be cut, etc.


Again, police budgets are a municipal thing. So I maintain that every part of the current shit show falls on the city and police forces of Ottawa.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> There in lies the problem does it not?
> 
> The Winnipeg Police Service was ordered not to intervene when statues were being torn down in Winnipeg. So much for equal treatment before the law…..


This only has credence if Winnipeg police treated the truckers harshly while going easy on those tearing down statues. 

Otherwise its foolish to compare different police forces in different jurisdictions for their different responses.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm going to say I am not sure I believe you.  First of all no one is being held hostage, you're using the same inflammatory language as the MSM.
> 
> Secondly your political slant on this has been pretty evident for a long time.  You can deny it, and maybe you believe it.  But I don't.  No matter how well behaved the protest was you were always going to be against it.  And that's fair, just be who you are.
> 
> I can tell you, on the surface, anyone who is against our COVID restrictions or mandates and doesn't like Trudeau is likely going to get my support.   Once I dig into their motivations that may change.  I am a card carrying member of the CPC, that's been no secret on here.


I don’t care if you believe me or not.  Frankly anyone not living here and paying taxes should stfu in my view when it comes to what is going on in relation to how this is affecting the city even though I know that isn’t a fair thing to say as anyone is entitled to their opinion.

My posting history has shown flat out that I have supported mandates.  I said to an “extent”.  I don’t support mandatory vaccinations as in tying people down, denying them medical care and I am for the middle ground of a combination of vaccines and rapid testing.

I don’t support what this protest is asking for.  Overturning the government and dropping all measures.

Go back and read what I’ve written.  I support lawful protest.  This isn’t that now.  The people of center town would disagree with you about being held hostage. Again, people not living here should stfu about what they THINK they are going through. 

So no.  I don’t support the occupiers. Time to get the eff out.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (7 Feb 2022)

Looking in from the Outside, i have no skin in the game or really care. 

But there many factors when it comes to the fuel thing.

Transport Canada rules,  There is nothing illegal about the practice because individuals are allowed to transport up to *six jerrycans* under an exemption in Transport Canada's transportation of dangerous goods regulations. Up to 150 KG.
Personal vehicle / recreational vehicle Under Section 1.15 of the TDG Regulations, there is an exemption that *will* allow *you* to *transport* a "gross mass" of up to 150 kg of *propane. *
After that  you need the Dangerous Good Placards and the endorsement that  you have taken the course.

Then there is the storage rules,  berms to prevent spills, fire extinguishers,  spill containment, ( absorbent materials,)  open flame near by. Then the NCC ( National Capital Commission) has their own rules for use of the lands under their control.  Environmental concerns what if there is a spill and it reaches the Rideau Canal, the Ottawa river, or the sewer system.  Who is going to want to be responsible if the Rideau Canal has a fuel spill into . World Heritage Site and be great to see it on the news being dug up and damaged . Very costly clean up, and no insurance to cover such a spill. Ask anyone who has their oil tank leak in the basement of back yard. House have torn down because it was cheaper to clean up that way.  I know 5 gallons is not a lot of fuel, but when you see the amount of fuel being bought to the site, it is 1000s of gallons, or liters. Then throw in the burn barrels, fireworks, and the smoking, and the lack of safety controls. 

Oka

I remember watching it on TV and thinking how bad it looked to see Canadian troops with weapons and ammo standing in front and between fellow Canadians. It is beyond my mind how no one got hurt or killed. Well trained troops can take some of the credit, some credit can be taken by the officers leading them,  and the protestors can take some of the credit too. But the image is not something we as Canadians really want to see, if it went nice and smooth, no one hurt, no one killed, it would be great victory for the Army. But the negative press it would feed would show the world we are no different than the US and their race and law enforcement riots,  show us no better than a 3rd world nation putting down a protest with tanks and machine guns. ( Yes I know the difference between a tank , a LAV, M113, and Tapv.) but the average person sees a weapon in the hands of a soldier and it is a machine gun they see, and everything the army drives is a tank. 

I was at Ipperwash in the final summer  they held a cadet camp there, I saw the police and the protestors inactions live and in person. No matter what happened the uniform side was in the wrong, because that is how the media reported it.  Was told we could be taken hostage soon as the cadets left camp so we were all given leave to get off camp asap and to report back to our units or normal army jobs.  We were not to stop any where locally, just get out of the area, and no talking to reporters. 

Biggest problem is even the army does not have the heavy wrecker fleet to pull this many trucks off the street. 
The image of armed troops on the Hill , will feed all the nations with human rights issues Canada speaks out against ammo to tell us to mind our business because we used the army  to put down a protest just like they do.
Tough call for the army to figure this out if called upon.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am cool with this, so long as we treat all *non violent* protesters and protests the same way.
> 
> Edited to add non violent


Apples and oranges.  The police in Ottawa arrested all BLM protesters after 3 days of occupying an intersection in 2020. They were non violent.  

How should we treat protests that become occupations then?


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Feb 2022)

This round of expressed dissatisfaction is more unpleasant than pretty much all of the previous rounds.  The next round will likely be more unpleasant than this one.  Either make some concessions, or be prepared for consequences.

Authorities are not vexed with having to give up everything or nothing.  They have the power to look at which measures have been drawn down elsewhere, and to draw them down where they are still in effect here.  Certainly everyone with an internet connection and a web browser can see what is happening elsewhere and decide whether they are being reasonably or unreasonably restricted.

Restoring peace and order using a doctrine of applying the full letter and force of the law to squeeze the bastards doesn't work out as well as some people think it should.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apples and oranges.  The police in Ottawa arrested all BLM protesters after 3 days of occupying an intersection in 2020. They were non violent.
> 
> How should we treat protests that become occupations then?



Like I said, as long as its how we treat everyone and every cause who non violently protests I'm cool with it.  As for the how, I am not a SME on crowd dispersion or control.  What do you think ?


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Feb 2022)

> So no.  I don’t support the occupiers. Time to get the eff out.



Yes.  Usually it's necessary for something to break before it gets fixed, though.  Let the protest go on until the political left in Canada comes around to the same view as the political right.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes.  Usually it's necessary for something to break before it gets fixed, though.  Let the protest go on until the political left in Canada comes around to the same view as the political right.



That's not the right way either.  That is holding hostage.


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Feb 2022)

It absolutely is.  The fastest way to get a developing problem fixed is to let it break right now instead of trying to prop it up.  It's also a lot easier on the people who would do the propping.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Biggest problem is even the army does not have the heavy wrecker fleet to pull this many trucks off the street.
> The image of armed troops on the Hill , will feed all the nations with human rights issues Canada speaks out against ammo to tell us to mind our business because we used the army  to put down a protest just like they do.
> Tough call for the army to figure this out if called upon.


Ummmm, you mean none of these?







						Big Wrecker | Canadian Army Today
					






					canadianarmytoday.com


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> But fuel deprives them of heat.


Some of those folks are dedicated enough to remain there to get hypothermia. If one of them dies, in an Ottawa winter, because OPS refused to let them fuel their trucks for heat I have a feeling the lawsuit settlement will dwarf the SLAPP-esque lawsuit asks from the "inconvienced" downtown residents.

So for the pro "fire people who aren't vaccinated" crowd: What office environment public health effect are you trying to achieve with a virus that has mutated to render the vaccine useless against preventing transmission? Please note that to make such a public health order, a government has to justify why it's a reasonable suspension of charter rights, not the individual's problem to justify why they need those rights.

3 provinces are already looking to remove most or all public health measures. Dr. Tam has stated vaccine mandates need review. Ontario is in the review process and stated they're basically useless post-Delta. If you're still cheering for vax-passes, at this point you're denying the overwhelming science that's available.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

Bill Blair vilifying the protestors. In all fairness they’ve overstayed  their welcome but to vilify them all is …. I’ve got no words. 

Maybe they deserve it but the way the narrative is going you’d think the cops were going into battle with Nazis - real Nazis - not the new phony ones. 

He is right - it needs to end now.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Some of those folks are dedicated enough to remain there to get hypothermia. If one of them dies, in an Ottawa winter, because OPS refused to let them fuel their trucks for heat I have a feeling the lawsuit settlement will dwarf the SLAPP-esque lawsuit asks from the "inconvienced" downtown residents.


That’s called a self inflicted injury.  And a stupid one.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Some of those folks are dedicated enough to remain there to get hypothermia. If one of them dies, in an Ottawa winter, because OPS refused to let them fuel their trucks for heat I have a feeling the lawsuit settlement will dwarf the SLAPP-esque lawsuit asks from the "inconvienced" downtown residents.


These people can up and leave and go somewhere warm. Heck, they can do that and return after. 

Freedom of movement isn't being restricted for people, just vehicles and fuel. 


PuckChaser said:


> So for the pro "fire people who aren't vaccinated" crowd: What office environment public health effect are you trying to achieve with a virus that has mutated to render the vaccine useless against preventing transmission? Please note that to make such a public health order, a government has to justify why it's a reasonable suspension of charter rights, not the individual's problem to justify why they need those rights.


Even if that's the case, occupying a city isn't going to lead  to changes. This is a provincial issue btw, so they are occupying the wrong city.


PuckChaser said:


> 3 provinces are already looking to remove most or all public health measures. Dr. Tam has stated vaccine mandates need review. Ontario is in the review process and stated they're basically useless post-Delta. If you're still cheering for vax-passes, at this point you're denying the overwhelming science that's available.


Even if that's the case, occupying a city isn't going to lead  to changes. This is also a provincial issue btw, so they are occupying the wrong city.


----------



## Drallib (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Some of those folks are dedicated enough to remain there to get hypothermia. If one of them dies, in an Ottawa winter, because OPS refused to let them fuel their trucks for heat I have a feeling the lawsuit settlement will dwarf the SLAPP-esque lawsuit asks from the "inconvienced" downtown residents.
> 
> So for the pro "fire people who aren't vaccinated" crowd: What office environment public health effect are you trying to achieve with a virus that has mutated to render the vaccine useless against preventing transmission? Please note that to make such a public health order, a government has to justify why it's a reasonable suspension of charter rights, not the individual's problem to justify why they need those rights.
> 
> 3 provinces are already looking to remove most or all public health measures. Dr. Tam has stated vaccine mandates need review. Ontario is in the review process and stated they're basically useless post-Delta. If you're still cheering for vax-passes, at this point you're denying the overwhelming science that's available.


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> That’s called a self inflicted injury.  And a stupid one.


I wonder if we could use that legal argument against folks who are shot by police? Or they should have denied Teresa Spence her bone broth or any supplies while she was on hunger strike at Parliament Hill?


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

“No one is above the law” 

Mark Medecino - a federal government minister.

Tell that to the citizens of Winnipeg. Or those communities that had their churches burnt down. 

I guess we’ll see arrests any day now….


----------



## Spencer100 (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Or some of you have chosen to lose your jobs and livelihood but is a sacrifice that YOU were willing to make.


OK this made me mad.  I did not choose to layoff people, I had too.  I did not close my doors I was told to!  I was ordered to check everyone coming for their medical records, oh its a nice QR code now.  I didn't want to have 400 people lose their jobs I had too. Plus more to come.  Oh guess it was a choice but not a real one.  

I have watched my kids schooling go to shit. My marriage on rocky grounds.  The choice of laying off people!  I so beyond upset with the protected government and civil service workers who in most part have had the least impact of this pandemic.  My wife being an RN on the "frontline" will even acknowledge this fact. 

I have spend the capital of an almost 80 year old business to stay afloat.  Hundreds of employees lives changed.   

And yes I am mad.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I wonder if we could use that legal argument against folks who are shot by police? Or they should have denied Teresa Spence her bone broth or any supplies while she was on hunger strike at Parliament Hill?


Are these protestors being denied food? No? Okay, bye.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

The rhetoric coming out of Ottawa is not healthy - it’s inflammatory. 

For those that live in Ottawa I empathize with you but vilifying and the level of rhetoric is beyond my understanding. 

I guess the old adage “never let a crisis go to waste’ is true here


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> ... This isn't a political issue(Federal or Provincial). No government is forced to talk to protestors ...


I'm with Humphrey Bogart on this one -- if someone saying they represent a group says "we stay until governments do x", then I'd say the political meter is well above zero.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The rhetoric coming out of Ottawa is not healthy - it’s inflammatory ...


Bang on re:  unhealthy -- has been all through the lead up to the Ottawa protests, in fact.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I'm with Humphrey Bogart on this one -- if someone saying they represent a group says "we stay until governments do x", then I'd say the political meter is well above zero.


If 90 percent of the population (not saying its that much, but for sake of argument) wants course A) but 10 percent of the population decides to show up and occupy a city center for gods knows how long, does the government need to course correct for that 10 percent?

I would say no. 

What next, NDP voters showing up in trucks demanding Universal basic income? does the government need to meet with them and meet them halfway? 

No, politics by protest should not be given a shred of legitimacy.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Bang on re:  unhealthy -- has been all through the lead up to the Ottawa protests, in fact.


Thank you. Instead of sending out a rep to negotiate a way out it seems that vilifying is the way out. 

Should the convoy leave? Hell yes.
One of the WPS Constables attended the protest here - he was very impressed with the local convoys behaviour

This is a monster of all three levels of government. The lax enforcement of law and order have lead to this. From municipal government telling police not to interfere with violent protests to the federal politicians who tacitly support “activists”. OPP officers refusing to dismantle a rail barricade. It all contributes to a “we can do whatever we want” attitude 

One question - if it was Calgary inundated with this protest would Ottawa react in the same way?


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Thank you. Instead of sending out a rep to negotiate a way out it seems that vilifying is the way out.
> 
> Should the convoy leave? Hell yes.
> One of the WPS Constables attended the protest here - he was very impressed with the local convoys behaviour


How do negotiations go?

Protestors: Remove all mandates

FedGov:No.

Protestors: Remove some mandates

FedGov:No.

Protestors: Remove select mandates

FedGov:No.

Protestors: Why wont you negotiate?

FedGov:Because we ran on things like mandates and got 5,556,629 Canadians supporting us, another 3,036,348 supporting the NDP who are also pro mandates, compared to you 14k truckers sitting outside at the height of your protest and 250-1000 sitting there now.


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> How do negotiations go?
> 
> Protestors: Remove all mandates
> 
> ...


There are about 40 million people in Canada, should those 5.5-8.5 million have that much say? 

If we are going to play the silly game, lets get completely silly.


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

Blasting air horns and pounding their keyboards may help some vent frustration.

Have to wait till next election to see what effect it had.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> There are about 40 million people in Canada, should those 5.5-8.5 million have that much say?
> 
> If we are going to play the silly game, lets get completely silly.


Welcome to representative democracy.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2022)

The current population of *Canada* is *38,270,858* as of Monday, February 7, 2022, based on Worldometer elaboration of the latest United Nations data.
I would assume that is those counted by census.

I don't know what our count of illegal queue jumpers is, I doubt anyone does including government does.


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Welcome to representative democracy.


Welcome to peaceful protest...


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> There are about 40 million people in Canada, should those 5.5-8.5 million have that much say?


Well, according to the deep-state Elections Canada, 27.4 million of all those people _could_ have voted in 2019 (out of a population of about 35.2M), so easy come, easy go, especially given people don't bring up the smaller numbers when a party they agree with wins   But you ARE right about stretching a bit & absolutism.


Altair said:


> How do negotiations go? ...


I think a better question could be:  Who should Canada negotiate with?  The guys who said "let's stop honkin' a bit" during which honkin' continued?  Even sending envoys out to have "not really talk" talks might have trouble finding people who can sway enough of the protest crowd to make things change.

Just like with the Occupy stuff way back when (or at least it seems way back when), hard to get an amorphous, decentralized gang to stop doing stuff when there may be almost as many motivations as there are participants, with different bits wanting slightly different things.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2022)

https://www.givesendgo.com/FreedomConvoy2022
		


Raised : USD $4,906,725 USD* ($6,224,376.93 CAD)*​That was of right now, 14:10 EST and climbing not too shabbily.


----------



## Navy_Pete (7 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I just watched an Ottawa city councillor on CBC, and she related several anecdotes about Ottawa citizens who’d been harassed and assaulted. All anecdotal with no statistics. There should be records of arrests or complaints but none of that was quoted. And CBC didn’t ask that either.
> Now I’ve gone on record as saying this protest is silly and it is but I haven’t seen a good solid argument against it.
> The protesters have been vilified. Tried and found guilty by the PM and others.


People are trying to report things, but can't get through the phone lines. People are trying to report hate crimes but can't get through the hate crime hotline either. OPS is deliberately not arresting people until later to avoid antagonizing the crowd. It's anecdotal because the OPS isn't doing anything and isn't resourced for the surge, so not really sure where you expect stats to come from, but there are about a 100 cases under investigation with a dozen or so active hate crime related investigations. But the anecdotes include people getting called racial slurs, assaulted, and having someone bang on their door and crap on their porch because of a pride flag, so all pretty serious things.

The sound level downtown has been measured in the 120-150 dB range over sustained periods for over a week solid (with no break overnight).  That's similar to a battlefield condition, just because some assclowns won't stop honking their horns. Even with ear protection that is deafening, and try sleeping or living around that. Construction sites would be shut down, rock concerts would have the power pulled etc. I don' think asking the protestors to not be inconsiderate goofs is a big deal, but they have had to go to court because so far no one else is doing FA.

This is a giant self goal; most people would agree that we need to come up with something sustainable, and agree with the concept that the mandates need to wind down, but these arseholes are behaving so badly it doesn't matter and they are now actively counter productive. I didn't agree with the BLM occupations either for the same reason.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Feb 2022)

Dumb question from a non-LEO guy, but can't the police just throw a cordon around these people and restrict access to 'resources' as a way to gain greater compliance, or something like that?

Ottawa police chief wants staffing boost as protesters continue to refuel convoy​Police chief tells reporters he needs 1,800 more officers, civilians to 'turn up the heat'​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/watson-state-of-emergency-update-1.6342156


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> People are trying to report things, but can't get through the phone lines. People are trying to report hate crimes but can't get through the hate crime hotline either. OPS is deliberately not arresting people until later to avoid antagonizing the crowd. It's anecdotal because the OPS isn't doing anything and isn't resourced for the surge, so not really sure where you expect stats to come from, but there are about a 100 cases under investigation with a dozen or so active hate crime related investigations. But the anecdotes include people getting called racial slurs, assaulted, and having someone bang on their door and crap on their porch because of a pride flag, so all pretty serious things.
> 
> The sound level downtown has been measured in the 120-150 dB range over sustained periods for over a week solid (with no break overnight).  That's similar to a battlefield condition, just because some assclowns won't stop honking their horns. Even with ear protection that is deafening, and try sleeping or living around that. Construction sites would be shut down, rock concerts would have the power pulled etc. I don' think asking the protestors to not be inconsiderate goofs is a big deal, but they have had to go to court because so far no one else is doing FA.
> 
> This is a giant self goal; most people would agree that we need to come up with something sustainable, and agree with the concept that the mandates need to wind down, but these arseholes are behaving so badly it doesn't matter and they are now actively counter productive. I didn't agree with the BLM occupations either for the same reason.



Were any seats in the Ottawa area Con or in weak Liberal positions before this protest ?  

Federal or Provincial.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Dumb question from a non-LEO guy, but can't the police just throw a cordon around these people and restrict access to 'resources' as a way to gain greater compliance, or something like that?
> 
> Ottawa police chief wants staffing boost as protesters continue to refuel convoy​Police chief tells reporters he needs 1,800 more officers, civilians to 'turn up the heat'​
> 
> ...



Police bosses have given the order.  Police on the ground have been recorded watching jerry cans go by, at the same time the Chief was announcing it again at a press conference.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Police bosses have given the order.  Police on the ground have been recorded watching jerry cans go by, at the same time the Chief was announcing it again at a press conference.



Do you mean police are being insubordinate ?  Or am I reading you wrong ?


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Do you mean police are being insubordinate ?  Or am I reading you wrong ?


From the livestream I saw, they seem confused about what is and isn't allowed.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Feb 2022)

In the incident I saw (and only a short piece of it) it appeared to be  a single constable in a cruiser, and a much larger group carrying mostly empty Jerry cans.

Orders without the ability to enforce.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Do you mean police are being insubordinate ?  Or am I reading you wrong ?


OPS has some serious internal issues that pre date this.  I won’t comment on that as I can’t confirm if that’s the case right now.    When I have time speak to a few I know I’ll have a better picture.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Welcome to peaceful protest...


I don't mind peaceful protest, but I don't think for a second that these protestors are owed anything in regards to a political response. 

If I gathered 10,000 people in trucks to occupy a city and demanded that Canada switch to PR, would the government be forced to meet with me and negotiate?

Would the government be forced to meet me in the middle? 

Would my 10,000 people be enough to influence government more than the results of 17m canadians voting? 

The obvious answer is no.


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Well, according to the deep-state Elections Canada, 27.4 million of all those people _could_ have voted in 2019 (out of a population of about 35.2M), so easy come, easy go, especially given people don't bring up the smaller numbers when a party they agree with wins   But you ARE right about stretching a bit & absolutism.



I'm not sure if you're attempting a jab with the "deep state" comment, but the point I was making is using raw numbers like Altair was is a silly game. 

I've said it multiple times in this thread already, and I'll summarize it again. People are starting to feel as though the government doesn't represent them, and actively ignores them. That is not how a democracy is supposed to work, regardless of whether or not the government has the legal authority to act as they please. It's about leadership, and there has been a lack of it at all levels of government for some time.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm not sure if you're attempting a jab with the "deep state" comment, but the point I was making is using raw numbers like Altair was is a silly game.
> 
> I've said it multiple times in this thread already, and I'll summarize it again. People are starting to feel as though the government doesn't represent them, and actively ignores them. That is not how a democracy is supposed to work, regardless of whether or not the government has the legal authority to act as they please. It's about leadership, and there has been a lack of it at all levels of government for some time.


If people don't have enough concentrated support to 

A) Win the most seats in parliament
B)Win a significant amount of seats in parliament
C)Win any seats in parliament

Then it is fair to conclude they do not have enough widespread support to have government hear them. 

This protest is most in line with the PPC and the PPC didn't do any of the above. Why should the government listen to PPC voters?


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Were any seats in the Ottawa area Con or in weak Liberal positions before this protest ?
> 
> Federal or Provincial.


Carleton is the only CPC a seat in the area. Off hand. I’m not sure how close most ridings were.  Pierre Polievre is the MP.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Welcome to peaceful protest...



Protest . . . yes.  Is this non-violent protest . . . arguably yes.  Is this "peaceful" protest . . . arguably not.  Is this civil disobedience (_I include that because it was described/alluded to as such earlier in thread_) . . . definitely not.  Is this lawful . . . the right to protest should be enshrined in the basic rights of all, but as the most effective protests invariably break laws (and not just those laws aimed at stifling mobs), then the individual actions of protestors at the most effective public demonstrations are often breaking the law.  Should they be held to account for their law breaking - definitely yes.  Their punishment . . . left to the courts, because that's how the system is supposed to work even if that punishment (or non-punishment) takes into account their justification for protesting.


And full disclosure, even though most already may assume that I have a progressive bent, I have participated in demonstrations that elicited a much more robust police response than demonstrated by the recent OPS action (or inaction).  But my "radical" phase was over half a century ago.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Carleton is the only CPC a seat in the area. Off hand. I’m not sure how close most ridings were.  Pierre Polievre is the MP.



I would imagine he's pretty safe in his seat. 

I would imagine this isn't costing any seats then.  Pissing off lefties who were never going to swayed.  Meah.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm not sure if you're attempting a jab with the "deep state" comment, but the point I was making is using raw numbers like Altair was is a silly game.


Not a jab at you at all - only to some who are consistently skeptical about sources not going their way.  Sincere apologies if you took that as a personal dig.


Furniture said:


> People are starting to feel as though the government doesn't represent them, and actively ignores them. That is not how a democracy is supposed to work, regardless of whether or not the government has the legal authority to act as they please. It's about leadership, and there has been a lack of it at all levels of government for some time.


Nothing I can disagree with there.  We'll see what happens here, and how many folks make it out to the polls next time around.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would imagine he's pretty safe in his seat.


Most elections save one where it came close.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Breaking: Noise injunction has been granted.   Let’s see if it gets enforced.


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## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/injunction-ottawa-granted-1.6342468


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## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Breaking: Noise injunction has been granted.   Let’s see if it gets enforced.


"Tooting a horn is not an expression of any great thought I'm aware of," said Justice Hugh McLean during a court hearing in Ottawa Monday.

I don't think he was trying to be funny, but he succeed all the same.


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I don't mind peaceful protest, but I don't think for a second that these protestors are owed anything in regards to a political response.
> 
> If I gathered 10,000 people in trucks to occupy a city and demanded that Canada switch to PR, would the government be forced to meet with me and negotiate?
> 
> ...


You're right, they don't have to, but what happens when 10K turns into 20K, 100K, or 1 million. What happens when they decide that they are no longer represented by the government, and do whatever they please? The government doesn't have the forces to enforce the law on 1 million disobedient people, and even if they did, would that country still be Canada afterward? 

Politics is about getting people with different ideas to work together for a common good. If the leaders of the country can't figure out how to keep the 10K people in the fold peacefully, there are consequences. What makes for good election politics doesn't make for a good way to run a country. 



Altair said:


> If people don't have enough concentrated support to
> 
> A) Win the most seats in parliament
> B)Win a significant amount of seats in parliament
> ...


Remember the CPC won more votes than the LPC, they were just less efficient with their votes. Not winning a seat doesn't mean those people's opinions are irrelevant. In your favourite example of the PPC, there were ~800K  Canadians that voted for them. That's close enough to a million people who feel as though their government is actively working against them....

Changing the voting system might fix things, but less antagonistic politicians would also go a long way toward fixing the issues we are facing. To be clear, Canada is far from the only country dealing with these issues, it's just the one we know best.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> What next, NDP voters showing up in trucks demanding Universal basic income? does the government need to meet with them and meet them halfway?


You mean voters who have a direct linkage to the active support of the incumbent government?  You’re saying thats a similar logical construct as disenfranchised (feeling unrepresented) citizens protesting?





Furniture said:


> Changing the voting system might fix things, but less antagonistic politicians would also go a long way toward fixing the issues we are facing.


I remember that being promised… 🤔


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're right, they don't have to, but what happens when 10K turns into 20K, 100K, or 1 million. What happens when they decide that they are no longer represented by the government, and do whatever they please? The government doesn't have the forces to enforce the law on 1 million disobedient people, and even if they did, would that country still be Canada afterward?


If they do whatever they choose they need to face the consequences of doing that. If the break the law, they face legal repercussions. If they want to protest, let them protest, within the framework of legal protests in this country. If they want to organize and work within the system, let them do that as well. But the government has zero obligation to sit down and negotiate with a protest group, none.


Furniture said:


> Politics is about getting people with different ideas to work together for a common good. If the leaders of the country can't figure out how to keep the 10K people in the fold peacefully, there are consequences. What makes for good election politics doesn't make for a good way to run a country.


There are consequences, for those 10k people. 

Again, 17m voters, we cannot just listen to those with the loudest horns.


Furniture said:


> Remember the CPC won more votes than the LPC, they were just less efficient with their votes. Not winning a seat doesn't mean those people's opinions are irrelevant.


They certainly did, and they certainly have a voice within parliament, and even they are not (or at least their last leader was not) for taking down all mandates. There was only one party that wanted that, the PPC.


Furniture said:


> In your favourite example of the PPC, there were ~800K  Canadians that voted for them. That's close enough to a million people who feel as though their government is actively working against them....


Again, slightly less than 5 percent of the electorate voted PPC and their views. Why does the government need to work with that group as opposed to everyone who voted LPC, everyone who voted NDP, everyone who voted BQ and everyone who voted CPC?

The government cannot be all things for everyone, that's not how it works. The will of the people as a collective is how parliament works, and sometimes that leaves groups on the outside looking in. The Left dealt with near 10 years of Stephen Harper in power, that's just how the system works.


Furniture said:


> Changing the voting system might fix things, but less antagonistic politicians would also go a long way toward fixing the issues we are facing. To be clear, Canada is far from the only country dealing with these issues, it's just the one we know best.


I'm all for changing the political system, more PR for example. Let the PPC into parliament, let there be more collaboration. 

But I don't think adding the PPC to parliament makes any great changes, anymore than the Green Party currently drives government policy now.


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're right, they don't have to, but what happens when 10K turns into 20K, 100K, or 1 million. What happens when they decide that they are no longer represented by the government, and do whatever they please? The government doesn't have the forces to enforce the law on 1 million disobedient people, and even if they did, would that country still be Canada afterward?
> 
> Politics is about getting people with different ideas to work together for a common good. If the leaders of the country can't figure out how to keep the 10K people in the fold peacefully, there are consequences. What makes for good election politics doesn't make for a good way to run a country.
> 
> ...


What’s important to remember is the protests are mostly about restoring what’s been taken away (by stopping mandates and restrictions). Not fundamental changes to a voting system, for instance.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You mean voters who have a direct linkage to the active support of the incumbent government?  You’re saying thats a similar logical construct as disenfranchised (feeling unrepresented) citizens protesting?
> View attachment 68556


Why am I not on ignore? You break your promises as much as politicians do.



Good2Golf said:


> You go back on ignore.


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Altair keeps acting like only 10,000 people in this country are upset with the mandates and government actions.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Ummmm, you mean none of these?
> 
> View attachment 68553
> 
> ...


Not enough to tow 100 plus trucks. But i would go watch the parade of trucks being towed


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## Brad Sallows (7 Feb 2022)

Politicians already know that the number of people motivated to write a letter to a member of a legislature or participate in a protest is representative of a larger number of sympathetic people.

Protest is a way of effecting change, and when effective, typically has overridden "democracy".

Playing the suit of extremism cards right out of the gate was a dumbfuck response by politicians, making it harder for them to save face if they give any ground.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Altair keeps acting like only 10,000 people in this country are upset with the mandates and government actions.


I'm sure the number is higher than that, heck, I say that the PPC vote is highly reflective of the part of the country that wants mandates gone. 

850k to 1m. 

But as society as a whole, I think people more or less are supportive of some mandates, and those 850k-1m people do not have the right to force the government to bend to their will over the will of everyone else.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Politicians already know that the number of people motivated to write a letter to a member of a legislature or participate in a protest is representative of a larger number of sympathetic people.
> 
> Protest is a way of effecting change, and when effective, typically has overridden "democracy".
> 
> Playing the suit of extremism cards right out of the gate was a dumbfuck response by politicians, making it harder for them to save face if they give any ground.


Except that they wont give any ground and these protests will end. 

Win Win. 

The only losers here are Ottawa and the OPS who allowed this nonsense to turn into an occupation. Quebec city and other jurisdictions showed over the weekend that they would not put up with this nonsense, and they were all over by monday.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Playing the suit of extremism cards right out of the gate was a dumbfuck response by politicians, making it harder for them to save face if they give any ground.


Heard someone today describe Putin being in a better position to walk back on UKR than Trudeau does calling all the truckers racists and bigots.


----------



## Spencer100 (7 Feb 2022)

Huron Church is blocked.  As I have said else where.  The ambassador bridge and the Bluewater with the two train tunnels are the largest choke point the economy in all of North America


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## FormerHorseGuard (7 Feb 2022)

if this group would go home and have regional meetings and pick candidates in the next federal election to back they would be a super power to deal with. 

They have proven the fundraising power they can amass. Yes I know Elections Canada has strict rules on fund raising. But no political party seems to be able to fund raise this kind of money on weekend.  They could put their war chest behind select candidates and get their people elected. Only problem is some of their leadership is Anti-Canada and that might pose problems if they retain membership in the west exit party.

This group as united Canadians on 3 coasts on both sides of the fight.


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> And full disclosure, even though most already may assume that I have a progressive bent, I have participated in demonstrations that elicited a much more robust police response than demonstrated by the recent OPS action (or inaction).  But my "radical" phase was over half a century ago.



Seeing the old "Riot and Emergency Squad" in action was a sight to behold. Although by then, officially, they were referred to as Emergency Task Force.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> if this group would go home and have regional meetings and pick candidates in the next federal election to back they would be a super power to deal with.
> 
> They have proven the fundraising power they can amass. Yes I know Elections Canada has strict rules on fund raising. But no political party seems to be able to fund raise this kind of money on weekend.  They could put their war chest behind select candidates and get their people elected. Only problem is some of their leadership is Anti-Canada and that might pose problems if they retain membership in the west exit party.
> 
> This group as united Canadians on 3 coasts on both sides of the fight.


Yeah, if organized and willing to work within the system they could do something. 

Instead they piss it all away honking.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> OK this made me mad.  I did not choose to layoff people, I had too.  I did not close my doors I was told to!  I was ordered to check everyone coming for their medical records, oh its a nice QR code now.  I didn't want to have 400 people lose their jobs I had too. Plus more to come.  Oh guess it was a choice but not a real one.
> 
> I have watched my kids schooling go to shit. My marriage on rocky grounds.  The choice of laying off people!  I so beyond upset with the protected government and civil service workers who in most part have had the least impact of this pandemic.  My wife being an RN on the "frontline" will even acknowledge this fact.
> 
> ...


Some common sense!

The Government will break your legs, give your
 a pair of crappy wooden crutches then tell you to be grateful for giving you the crutches without acknowledging that they were the ones who broke your legs, much less even apologizing for it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Some common sense!
> 
> The Government will break your legs, give your
> a pair of crappy wooden crutches then tell you to be grateful for giving you the crutches without acknowledging that they were the ones who broke your legs, much less even apologizing for it.



And break your arms if you don't accept their crutches


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> if this group would go home and have regional meetings and pick candidates in the next federal election to back they would be a super power to deal with.
> 
> They have proven the fundraising power they can amass. Yes I know Elections Canada has strict rules on fund raising. But no political party seems to be able to fund raise this kind of money on weekend.  They could put their war chest behind select candidates and get their people elected. Only problem is some of their leadership is Anti-Canada and that might pose problems if they retain membership in the west exit party.
> 
> This group as united Canadians on 3 coasts on both sides of the fight.


So much for a fringe minority of racists, eh?

Some of their leadership could be considered “not anti-Alberta“ as opposed to “anti-Canada”…this is debatable.


----------



## Haggis (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're right, they don't have to, but what happens when 10K turns into 20K, 100K, or 1 million.


Or 2.2 million?


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> So much for a fringe minority of racists, eh?
> 
> Some of their leadership could be considered “not anti-Alberta“ as opposed to “anti-Canada”…this is debatable.


The point remains, where would this money and fundraising power do the most good for their cause?

Maverick party, PPC or CPC?

And could the convoy people come to a rational conclusion on that?


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> ... They have proven the fundraising power they can amass. Yes I know Elections Canada has strict rules on fund raising. But no political party seems to be able to fund raise this kind of money on weekend ...


Well, if the Attornies General of at least Texas and Florida are concerned about their folks getting ripped off by GFM on this one, while the grand total is big, can't tell how much of that is homegrown dollars.


FormerHorseGuard said:


> if this group would go home and have regional meetings and pick candidates in the next federal election to back they would be a super power to deal with ...


It WOULD be interesting to see how protest would translate into political power.  To grossly oversimplify, though, if you look at historical insurgencies (no I don't think THIS is _*anywhere*_ close to that, just making a general analogy), not all groups good at protesting and opposing  the government made transitions into governing.


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The point remains, where would this money and fundraising power do the most good for their cause?
> 
> Maverick party, PPC or CPC?
> 
> And could the convoy people come to a rational conclusion on that?


Neither.

They wouldn’t be where they are now without the protests across the country. Now they have millions and a lot of attention.


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Except that they wont give any ground and these protests will end.
> 
> Win Win.
> 
> The only losers here are Ottawa and the OPS who allowed this nonsense to turn into an occupation. Quebec city and other jurisdictions showed over the weekend that they would not put up with this nonsense, and they were all over by monday.


You're right the protest will end, but the manner of its ending is as important as the fact it ends.

When the railroads were blockaded, things ended peacefully because the government spoke respectfully to the people protesting, and allowed everybody to walk away feeling like they had accomplished something. If they had said "enough is enough" and used force to end things, blockades would likely have popped up at nearly every rail line that crossed First Nations claimed land.

Looking at the truck protest, the government has already essentially set themselves up to only have force, or boredom as an options to end this. Based on the way the media, and government have spoken about the protest boredom is likely out, because the more rhetoric they use the more the protesters dig in. That leaves force as the only option... What happens when the OPS decide that batons and tear gas are the right tool? We have already seen peaceful protests pop up across the country in support of the one in Ottawa, is it unlikely to see less-peaceful ones if this gets ugly in Ottawa?


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Neither.
> 
> They wouldn’t be where they are now without the protests across the country. Now they have millions and a lot of attention.


They have a lot of attention and a lot of money and no results. 

They would do better to pivot and turn this money and attention to political power, if they have the organization to do so. 

CPC already makes a boatload of money, so they wouldn't get the most attention there. 

PPC or Maverick would be natural bedfellows, but Maverick is a separatist party so that would limit appeal.

PPC it is then. Lets see if Bernier and the convoy team up.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Well, if the Attornies General of at least Texas and Florida are concerned about their folks getting ripped off by GFM on this one, while the grand total is big, can't tell how much of that is homegrown dollars.
> 
> It WOULD be interesting to see how protest would translate into political power.  To grossly oversimplify, though, if you look at historical insurgencies (no I don't think THIS is _*anywhere*_ close to that, just making a general analogy), not all groups good at protesting and opposing  the government made transitions into governing.


What they really want is some action from government so they can go home and get on with their lives. These are not professional protesters. Most are taking a significant income hit to be there.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

And we are back at square one again. Talking about political parties LOL

The fact all three levels of Government are presently sitting around a table pointing fingers at each other to do something is highly amusing


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Wait, is OPS exempt from vaccine mandates? Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Police bosses have given the order.  Police on the ground have been recorded watching jerry cans go by, at the same time the Chief was announcing it again at a press conference.



Oh FFS....

But I have to sympathize, to a certain extent.

Proper cordons, even small ones, consume an enourmous amount of resources .... 

.... like political capital


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Or 2.2 million?


Interestingly, 2.2 million firearms owners didn't raise 10 million dollars, and park 8k protestors on Parliament Hill for a weekend, which makes me think there are more than ~800K people backing the protests happening across the country...


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> And we are back at square one again. Talking about political parties LOL
> 
> The fact all three levels of Government are presently sitting around a table pointing fingers at each other to do something is highly amusing


Ah, Canadian federalism in action ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh FFS....
> 
> But I have to sympathize, to a certain extent.
> 
> ...


I've said enough, I'm just gonna grab a bag of popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show.

I do genuinely feel compassion for the people who are bystanders in all of this that are being impacted.  

I also feel bad for the Police, they are paid well but not that well.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Interestingly, 2.2 million firearms owners didn't raise 10 million dollars, and park 8k protestors on Parliament Hill for a weekend, which makes me think there are more than ~800K people backing the protests happening across the country...


Earlier I said it was likely 50/50… in retrospect it’s probably far more against mandates and restriction.  The “for“ category is likely only now largelylimited to three categories:
1. Old vulnerable retirees;
2. Public servants or those who will still get paid when everything is shutdown
3. Those who’ve not been able to suss out the real risks of C19

And the numbers in these three keep dwindling (omicron, acquired natural immunity, etc)

This is almost over, only the government stubbornness hanging on.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Earlier I said it was likely 50/50… in retrospect it’s probably far more against mandates and restriction.  The “for“ category is likely only now largelylimited to three categories:
> 1. Old vulnerable retirees;
> 2. Public servants or those who will still get paid when everything is shutdown
> 3. Those who’ve not been able to suss out the real risks of C19
> ...


I don't think that's actually correct either.  I think there is a substantial portion of the population, probably 40-50% that don't give much of a crap either way. 

Then there is 25-30 percent either side that are strongly in their respective pro camps, hence why this is no longer a "fringe" movement.

You can tell just by the lively discussion here that this isn't some sort 95% consensus for something.  

The real question I have is what are we going to do when the pandemic is all over and what's the plan for the 3+ million people we have that still aren't vaccinated?  Are we going to roll back to pre March 2020 rules or are we going to end up with a bunch of anti-vaxx refugees?  

In other words.... what's the end game here?


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Wait, is OPS exempt from vaccine mandates? Can anyone confirm this?



No.

Fewer than 10 Ottawa police officers suspended for refusing COVID-19 vaccine


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't think that's actually correct either.  I think there is a substantial portion of the population, probably 40-50% that don't give much of a crap either way.
> 
> Then there is 25-30 percent either side that are strongly in their respective pro camps, hence why this is no longer a "fringe" movement.
> 
> ...


The reason I disagree with your 40-50% don’t give a crap is that everyone has been 8mpeded one way or another in this. For some it’s as simple as unrestricted border crossing, others it’s school issues, many it’s employment… the number that GAF is definitely high. 

Good question, what and when is the end game? We’re way passed “two weeks to slow the spread“.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> What they really want is some action from government so they can go home and get on with their lives. These are not professional protesters. Most are taking a significant income hit to be there.


They should go home because that's not going to happen, at least not at the federal level.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You mean voters who have a direct linkage to the active support of the incumbent government?  You’re saying thats a similar logical construct as disenfranchised (feeling unrepresented) citizens protesting?
> View attachment 68556
> 
> 
> ...


More than once.

It's  like Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump promising to move the Embassy to Jeruselum.
It took Trump to finally keep those Presidential promises.

Or how long have the grits been promising clean water to FN.🙄


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> The reason I disagree with your 40-50% don’t give a crap is that everyone has been 8mpeded one way or another in this. For some it’s as simple as unrestricted border crossing, others it’s school issues, many it’s employment… the number that GAF is definitely high.
> 
> Good question, what and when is the end game? We’re way passed “two weeks to slow the spread“.


Personally, I don't have any skin in the game.  I'm triple vaxxed, employed, no debts but I don't see the real cost-benefit of continuing to press the issue post-pandemic?

There needs to be a drawdown and de-escalation as continuing with these measures creates other issues.  

History is replete with examples of "winning a thousand battles and still losing the war".  The juice doesn't seem to be worth the squeeze.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're right the protest will end, but the manner of its ending is as important as the fact it ends.


the police have not been cracking skulls before now, I doubt they start now.


Furniture said:


> When the railroads were blockaded, things ended peacefully because the government spoke respectfully to the people protesting, and allowed everybody to walk away feeling like they had accomplished something. If they had said "enough is enough" and used force to end things, blockades would likely have popped up at nearly every rail line that crossed First Nations claimed land.


And BLM protests have been shut down with absolutely no talks. 

First nations groups are a special case because of treaty and land rights, and they have centralized leadership. As many have said before, who do you even talk to in the convoy that has any sway? 


Furniture said:


> Looking at the truck protest, the government has already essentially set themselves up to only have force, or boredom as an options to end this. Based on the way the media, and government have spoken about the protest boredom is likely out, because the more rhetoric they use the more the protesters dig in. That leaves force as the only option... What happens when the OPS decide that batons and tear gas are the right tool? We have already seen peaceful protests pop up across the country in support of the one in Ottawa, is it unlikely to see less-peaceful ones if this gets ugly in Ottawa?


Again, OPS does not seem like they are in the business of cracking skulls, if there were they would have done so already.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> The reason I disagree with your 40-50% don’t give a crap is that everyone has been 8mpeded one way or another in this. For some it’s as simple as unrestricted border crossing, others it’s school issues, many it’s employment… the number that GAF is definitely high.
> 
> Good question, what and when is the end game? We’re way passed “two weeks to slow the spread“.








						Majority of Canadians disagree with 'freedom convoy' on vaccine mandates and lockdowns
					

THE CONVERSATION




					nationalpost.com
				






> Most Canadians support government measures to help control the spread of COVID-19, according to our ongoing public opinion study. Known as the COVID-19 Monitor, the study of Canadians’ attitudes relating to the COVID-19 pandemic and public policy interventions has been running since shortly after the first COVID-19-related government restrictions were introduced in March 2020. It has amassed more than 100,000 respondents, making it one of the largest continuing studies of Canadian attitudes toward the pandemic.








						CityNews
					






					vancouver.citynews.ca
				






> Almost one in three Canadians, or 28 per cent, support allowing unvaccinated truckers to cross the U.S.-Canada border, according to a new poll.
> 
> Those with this view are mostly likely to be from Alberta with 35 per cent followed by Atlantic Canada at 30 per cent and Ontario at 29 per cent.





The minority trying to force their opinion on the Majority. Yeah, that's not going to work.


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

> It's like Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump promising to move the Embassy to Jeruselum.
> It took Trump to finally keep those Presidential promises.











						UN Votes Against the US Moving Its Embassy to Jerusalem
					

Yes I have thought about that. The status quo is that Israel, with its wide array of people and infrastructure will have to exist, in all fairness. I just wouldn't call it Israel. I'd call it a nice warm place to live. My argument is for secularization, not operating governments or rebellious...




					army.ca
				






PMedMoe said:


> Fewer than 10 Ottawa police officers suspended for refusing COVID-19 vaccine


Fewer than 10 out of 1387 police officers.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Feb 2022)

Well, a young lady ~ we do not know her ~ who lives near us here in Centretown Ottawa has done what Police Chief Sloly, Mayor Watson, Attorney General Downey and Prime  Minister Trudeau have ALL failed, failed conspicuously to do. She turned off the horns.

She, Zexi Li, hired a layer and he persuaded Justice Hugh McLean (apparently he didn't need a lot of persuading) that honking horns, day and night, is _a)_ harmful to others; and _b)_ not the kind of "free speech" that needs legal/constitutional protection.

Why, one might ask did Trudeau, Downey, Watson, Sloly and tall the other and all their minions not do that 10 days ago?


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Well, a young lady ~ we do not know her ~ who lives near us here in Centretown Ottawa has done what Police Chief Sloly, Mayor Watson, Attorney General Downey and Prime  Minister Trudeau have ALL failed, failed conspicuously to do. She turned off the horns.
> 
> She, Zexi Li, hired a layer and he persuaded Justice Hugh McLean (apparently he didn't need a lot of persuading) that honking horns, day and night, is _a)_ harmful to others; and _b)_ not the kind of "free speech" that needs legal/constitutional protection.
> 
> Why, one might ask did Trudeau, Downey, Watson, Sloly and tall the other and all their minions not do that 10 days ago?


Indeed.  I’m not sure it will be enforced but we’ll see.  Bodes well for the class action suit though.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Well, a young lady ~ we do not know her ~ who lives near us here in Centretown Ottawa has done what Police Chief Sloly, Mayor Watson, Attorney General Downey and Prime  Minister Trudeau have ALL failed, failed conspicuously to do. She turned off the horns.
> 
> She, Zexi Li, hired a layer and he persuaded Justice Hugh McLean (apparently he didn't need a lot of persuading) that honking horns, day and night, is _a)_ harmful to others; and _b)_ not the kind of "free speech" that needs legal/constitutional protection.
> 
> Why, one might ask did Trudeau, Downey, Watson, Sloly and tall the other and all their minions not do that 10 days ago?


Apparently the newest tactic is walking around with Empty Jerry Cans or filling them with Koolaid.  They are calling it the biggest troll job in history.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

> Why, one might ask did Trudeau, Downey, Watson, Sloly and tall the other and all their minions not do that 10 days ago?



Because Ms. Li was interested in resolving the issue ASAP, as opposed to:

• grandstanding to impress everyone with one’s resolve stewardship of this great nation; or
• to avoid having to address OPS Chief’s plea for sending troops into the streets (with or without guns); or
• doing nothing, so as to divert heat and light away from other examples of ineptitude, like city programs quite literally coming off the rails; or
• to avoid have one’s budget decreased by passively-aggressively campaigning against a defund the police effort…? 🤔


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Feb 2022)

In light of the outbreak of #FreedomConvoy now trending globally, people have revisited this 1999 South Park skit:






It's trending on Twitter LOL


----------



## McG (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …or “Some of you may lose your jobs or livelihood, but that’s the sacrifice I’m willing to make.”


The government has a lot more capacity to protect jobs & livelihoods than to spontaneously increase the number of healthcare professionals. So, risk to jobs & livelihoods is more easily mitigated than risk to lives. Also, lost jobs & livelihoods are a reversible condition (an area where govt can also assist) but a lost life is irreversible.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Why, one might ask did Trudeau, Downey, Watson, Sloly and tall the other and all their minions *not do that 10 days ago?*


In the Prime Minister's case I would say very clever politicking. He had everything to gain by extending this protest and nothing by summing it up.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In the Prime Minister's case I would say very clever politicking. He had everything to gain by extending this protest and nothing by summing it up.


Cynical.

Not wrong but cynical.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Police arson unit probes Ottawa downtown apartment fire allegation in heat of anti-mandate protest
					

Police are investigating what appears to be an attempt to start a fire in the lobby of a downtown Ottawa apartment building, where tenants say they have been…




					ottawacitizen.com
				




Police investigating now.


----------



## lenaitch (7 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> What’s important to remember is the protests are mostly about restoring what’s been taken away (by stopping mandates and restrictions). Not fundamental changes to a voting system, for instance.


While likely true for the non-core group (and the people who are just there on the weekends for the carnival of it all), there is still the 'demand' from to so-called spokespersons - which I'm not aware has been withdrawn - for the Senate and GG to dissolve Parliament.

And speaking of the spokespersons, the so-called parents of this thing, in response to the court's noise injunction, their lawyer says they are not responsible.  So does anybody speak for anybody, or is this an anarchic gaggle?


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (7 Feb 2022)

Another small fringe minority:


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ambassador-bridge-protest-1.6342837
		




People around the world (Mexico, USA, Bolivia, France, Australia, New Zealand and more) have seen what the True North Strong and Free are doing and emulating it. 
God Bless Truckers.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Feb 2022)

Why would he meet avowed white supremacists calling for race war (the protest organizers - who,  for the record, are not truckers nor representative of truckers).


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> While likely true for the non-core group (and the people who are just there on the weekends for the carnival of it all), there is still the 'demand' from to so-called spokespersons - which I'm not aware has been withdrawn - for the Senate and GG to dissolve Parliament.
> 
> And speaking of the spokespersons, the so-called parents of this thing, in response to the court's noise injunction, their lawyer says they are not responsible.  So does anybody speak for anybody, or is this an anarchic gaggle?


Perhaps they are an anarcho-syndicalist commune?


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> The government has a lot more capacity to protect jobs & livelihoods than to spontaneously increase the number of healthcare professionals. So, risk to jobs & livelihoods is more easily mitigated than risk to lives. Also, lost jobs & livelihoods are a reversible condition (an area where govt can also assist) but a lost life is irreversible.



Also, among the survivors,









						COVID-19: Long-term effects
					

Learn about the possible long-term effects of COVID-19.




					www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Ottawa police dealing with threats, fake calls tying up resources
					

Ottawa police say as they attempt to contain and eventually bring an end to the 11-day "Freedom Convoy" demonstration downtown, phony calls and threats are tying up their limited resources.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




Nice.  Americans swatting OPS.  Sounds about right given the money flowing in from there. 

A man was arrested in the US for calling in a bomb threat to OPS.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Only saw it on TV but apparently the Sgt At Arms sent a memo about suspicious packages sent to three constituency offices.  I’ll be curious to see which ones.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Apparently the newest tactic is walking around with Empty Jerry Cans or filling them with Koolaid.  They are calling it the biggest troll job in history.


When jerry cans are outlawed, only outlaws'll have jerry cans ...


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> The government has a lot more capacity to protect jobs & livelihoods than to spontaneously increase the number of healthcare professionals. So, risk to jobs & livelihoods is more easily mitigated than risk to lives. Also, lost jobs & livelihoods are a reversible condition (an area where govt can also assist) but a lost life is irreversible.


CERB only addresses expense-like reimbursement.  It doesn’t cover those who in some cases had invested their life savings to create a small business that was employing, in the case of my friend, 8-10 other Canadians, but have had to shutter the business and lay off employees.

We (serving and served) have been mindful that not all health issues can be constrained to the physical.  Mental health seems to get little consideration from the calculus of the situation. Now sure about my friend’s ex-employees, but he is not in a good place…triple-vax status notwithstanding.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Feb 2022)

And apparently on Telegram, this is circulating.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490811201089159170


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In the Prime Minister's case I would say very clever politicking. He had everything to gain by extending this protest and nothing by summing it up.


Which makes one wonder ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> UN Votes Against the US Moving Its Embassy to Jerusalem
> 
> 
> Yes I have thought about that. The status quo is that Israel, with its wide array of people and infrastructure will have to exist, in all fairness. I just wouldn't call it Israel. I'd call it a nice warm place to live. My argument is for secularization, not operating governments or rebellious...
> ...


WTF is wrong with you? Do you think you can, for once, just try adding to the conversation by posting a coherent, thoughtful response to a statement or question? Your deep searching the internet for any obscure link you can throw up to cast shade on another posters comments has become exceedingly tiresome. Take some ownership for your opinions, not just act as the site's Wayback Link Meister.

As for your current sharp stick, nobody cares about you linking back to your own comment from 2017. It didn't even address my statement. You think because a link you dug for back then is still relevant, is overshadowed by the fact that since at least 2017, you haven't  learned to how to be part of the conversation. You just try let someone else make your point, using their words and research and putting them up as your own stance.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And apparently on Telegram, this is circulating.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490811201089159170


This can’t be real…


----------



## JLB50 (7 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And apparently on Telegram, this is circulating.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490811201089159170


The Telegram, ah, yes, a favourite for those who are into just about anything you can’t post on normal social media.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> The Telegram, ah, yes, a favourite for those who are into just about anything you can’t post on normal social media.


I’ve never heard of this Telegram.  Unless we are talking about actual telegrams.


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2022)

Seems like the "arson" story has (ironically) holes big enough to drive a tractor-trailer through:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490525934948081666


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> WTF is wrong with you?



I could ask the same question.



Fishbone Jones said:


> It's a close as I can get to feeling I'm  alone in an elevator with him on a 40 floor trip with no repercussions about his condition when we get to the top.


----------



## JLB50 (7 Feb 2022)

The Telegram Messenger.


----------



## QV (7 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> In light of the outbreak of #FreedomConvoy now trending globally, people have revisited this 1999 South Park skit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And apparently on Telegram, this is circulating.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490811201089159170


GG's office is getting loadsa calls, too.


----------



## Furniture (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Seems like the "arson" story has (ironically) holes big enough to drive a tractor-trailer through:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490525934948081666


I bet the would-be arsonist said "This is Truckistan country!"...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Another small fringe minority:
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ambassador-bridge-protest-1.6342837
> ...


I don't  want anyone thinking this is crazy, or somehow imposing on anyone. With the exception of those people standing out on the road this is normal eveyday traffic here. This border crossing has the largest flow of goods going back and forth. Packed and at a standstill, is just regular daily traffic around here. Basically, nothing to see here, move along.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Seems like the "arson" story has (ironically) holes big enough to drive a tractor-trailer through:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490525934948081666


That’s my initial thought.  I can understand why maybe people though would hesitate to call the police given the building involved.  Either trust or possible shady stuff.  It looks like the Algonquin.  If it is, it is not a nice building.  I lived there for three months while waiting for my house to be built when I moved back to Ottawa.   It had a lot of new Canadians, some subsidized families and what not.  It was cheap and you could rent by month with no lease. 

Lots of bugs.  Silverfish especially.  Water leaked into my appartement because a family of newly arrived Canadians had turned a bedroom into an indoor garden for growing food in the apartment above me.  They just spread a bunch of top soil and planted and watered.  No clue what shape it’s in now.

But I have to ask why someone would “just” identify themselves as part of the convoy.  Makes no sense.


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> WTF is wrong with you? Do you think you can, for once, just try adding to the conversation by posting a coherent, thoughtful response to a statement or question? Your deep searching the internet for any obscure link you can throw up to cast shade on another posters comments has become exceedingly tiresome. Take some ownership for your opinions, not just act as the site's Wayback Link Meister.
> 
> As for your current sharp stick, nobody cares about you linking back to your own comment from 2017. It didn't even address my statement. You think because a link you dug for back then is still relevant, is overshadowed by the fact that since at least 2017, you haven't  learned to how to be part of the conversation. You just try let someone else make your point, using their words and research and putting them up as your own stance.


Why do i get the feeling that if i talked to the mods like this I wouldn't be posting anymore?


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Feb 2022)

I'm ashamed to say Telegram is how we deal with our TV SP and ISP lol 

We got some sketchy service providers hahaha but they're cheap AF lol


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Indeed.  I’m not sure it will be enforced but we’ll see.  Bodes well for the class action suit though.


I have a hunch that the front line police officers want to enforce the law. They are, I suspect, tired of being told to back down and back away. Even though they do not want to "bust heads" or anything like that they are tired of being complicit in what is rampant law-breaking. Horns that produce sustained 100db+ noise levels are dangerous; the front line police officers know that. Now they have a good reason to shut them down.


----------



## blacktriangle (7 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> The Telegram Messenger.


It's just Telegram.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I have a hunch that the front line police officers want to enforce the law. They are, I suspect, tired of being told to back down and back away. Even though they do not want to "bust heads" or anything like that they are tired of being complicit in what is rampant law-breaking. Horns that produce sustained 100db+ noise levels are dangerous; the front line police officers know that. Now they have a good reason to shut them down.


I hope so.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Feb 2022)

I just wish they'd realize that the best protest is one where you show up, make your point, inconvenience a LITTLE, and then move on to see what impact you had over the next month or so....

It's time folks......


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Some of those folks are dedicated enough to remain there to get hypothermia. If one of them dies, in an Ottawa winter, because OPS refused to let them fuel their trucks for heat I have a feeling the lawsuit settlement will dwarf the SLAPP-esque lawsuit asks from the "inconvienced" downtown residents.
> 
> So for the pro "fire people who aren't vaccinated" crowd: What office environment public health effect are you trying to achieve with a virus that has mutated to render the vaccine useless against preventing transmission? Please note that to make such a public health order, a government has to justify why it's a reasonable suspension of charter rights, not the individual's problem to justify why they need those rights.
> 
> 3 provinces are already looking to remove most or all public health measures. Dr. Tam has stated vaccine mandates need review. Ontario is in the review process and stated they're basically useless post-Delta. If you're still cheering for vax-passes, at this point you're denying the overwhelming science that's available.


The thing is that it’s not just about limiting/preventing transmission but also about reducing the severity of the illness, which the vaccines are good at.  This is what keeps the hospitalization rates low.


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Feb 2022)

> those 850k-1m people do not have the right to force the government to bend to their will over the will of everyone else.



They have the right to try, just like anyone else.  Those willing to risk the punishment can be disobedient.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I could ask the same question.


So that's  your response when you can't find/use an obscure link to do your talking? Guess I was right.


----------



## McG (7 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> CERB only addresses expense-like reimbursement. It doesn’t cover those who in some cases had invested their life savings to create a small business that was employing, in the case of my friend, 8-10 other Canadians, but have had to shutter the business and lay off employees.


So why is fixing the social safety net to cover exigencies of the pandemic not the cause of the protest convoys? Surely that must be a better cause than just let more people die so business can function like 2019.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> So why is fixing the social safety net to cover exigencies of the pandemic not the cause of the protest convoys? Surely that must be a better cause than just let more people die so business can function like 2019.


Personally?  I think they didn’t think things through.

That doesn’t invalidate the point of giving  more than a passing consideration to the MH side of the situation.


----------



## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> So that's  your response when you can't find/use an obscure link to do your talking?



OK.  I go out of my way to avoid engaging with you.



Fishbone Jones said:


> It's like Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump promising to move the Embassy to Jeruselum.
> It took Trump to finally keep those Presidential promises.



Today, you posted that as a fact - from 2017. Not an opinion.

I replied with a fact - also from 2017. Not an opinion.



> In the 2017 AJC Survey of American Jewish Opinion, done in September 2017, it was found that 16% of American Jews polled supported an immediate move of the embassy to Jerusalem, 36% wanted to move the embassy at a later date in conjunction with Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, 44% opposed moving the embassy, and 4% said they were not sure.











						AJC Survey of American Jewish Opinion 2017
					

AJC’s 2017 Survey of American Jewish Opinion, conducted by the research company SSRS, is based on telephone interviews carried out August 10-28 with a national sample of 1,000 Jews over age 18. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.71%.




					www.ajc.org


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> This can’t be real…
> 
> View attachment 68565


You can laugh now, but #9 will become relevant in 20-30 years as the tech improves. It's not there yet, otherwise the Chinese would be doing it. I would not doubt the Chinese have experimented with forced chipping of prisoners and undesirables but even the larger scale stuff (size of a pill) is not yet workable on a mass scale. They are working on a insert for Type 1 diabetics that, may eventually have some nano-tech in it for insulin and BG control.

The document could real or faked and distributed by people wishing to undermine the protests. I get all sorts of "form letters" to address to MP/governments. People may sign and send without reading the full thing.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can laugh now, but #9 will become relevant in 20-30 years as the tech improves. It's not there yet, otherwise the Chinese would be doing it. I would not doubt the Chinese have experimented with forced chipping of prisoners and undesirables but even the larger scale stuff (size of a pill) is not yet workable on a mass scale. They are working on a insert for Type 1 diabetics that, may eventually have some nano-tech in it for insulin and BG control.
> 
> The document could real or faked and distributed by people wishing to undermine the protests. I get all sorts of "form letters" to address to MP/governments. People may sign and send without reading the full thing.


I’m not laughing.  I’m actually questioning it’s veracity. I know some kooks believe this stuff but I’m not sure that this would be sent en masse by everyone.

But if it is…I can see why no one wants to meet the people behind that.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490869619304898561
Michael Chong weighing in.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m not laughing.  I’m actually questioning it’s veracity. I know some kooks believe this stuff but I’m not sure that this would be sent en masse by everyone.
> 
> But if it is…I can see why no one wants to meet the people behind that.


As I said my guess is people not reading the full document and just signing it. There are often websites setup to facilitate these writing campaigns. All you have to do is click on agree and enter your personal data and it's auto sent.


----------



## Quirky (7 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490869619304898561
> Michael Chong weighing in.



He just wake up? 

Maybe a couple more “go home, it’s time” twitts or press releases will finally convince the protesters.


----------



## lenaitch (7 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I have a hunch that the front line police officers want to enforce the law. They are, I suspect, tired of being told to back down and back away. Even though they do not want to "bust heads" or anything like that they are tired of being complicit in what is rampant law-breaking. Horns that produce sustained 100db+ noise levels are dangerous; the front line police officers know that. Now they have a good reason to shut them down.


I hope so too, but they need the boots on the ground.  I say this not knowing how many members of other forces are deployed; apparently the Ford government said 1500 OPP members but OPS says about 100 (I tend to believe the OPS figure - 1500 would unsustainable).  Every 'ticket' offence is a possible flashpoint a likely dictates several members per incident, but not normally a big time consumer.  Every criminal charge may need an investigation, but even if found committing by the member, implies an arrest, return to the station, processing, release, etc.  And they still have to staff roadblocks and police the rest of the city 24/7).


----------



## Altair (7 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490845554955649025
I suppose this is just me trolling again.


----------



## Quirky (7 Feb 2022)

'It has to stop': Trudeau accuses protesters of blockading democracy during Commons debate
					

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau accused the Ottawa convoy protesters of trying to derail Canada's democracy during an emergency debate about demonstrations against COVID-19 public health restrictions and vaccine mandates. The protesters in Ottawa are "trying to blockade our economy, our democracy...




					news.google.com
				






> The protesters in Ottawa are "trying to blockade our economy, our democracy and our fellow citizens' daily lives. It has to stop," Trudeau said



Pot meet kettle.


----------



## Remius (7 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> He just wake up?
> 
> Maybe a couple more “go home, it’s time” twitts or press releases will finally convince the protesters.


This might be more about positioning himself for a run at the leadership.  Not every CPC member is thrilled with the party embracing this.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Pot meet kettle.



Canada believes in the importance of dialogue.


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Canada believes in the importance of dialogue.


Also believes in not enforcing the rule of law


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490845554955649025
> I suppose this is just me trolling again.


I'm not sure what your point is, she has been pretty open about her support for them all along... 

Are politicians not allowed to pose for pictures to score political points with their base anymore? That may prove problematic for some... 

More importantly though, one side acting dumb is hardly an excuse for the other to act just as dumb. Politicians like stoking the fire because they think in terms of winning the next election, not what impact this might have on Canada in 10 years. Canadians should be demanding more from them, not playing mini versions of the same "gotcha" political games.


----------



## PuckChaser (8 Feb 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> The thing is that it’s not just about limiting/preventing transmission but also about reducing the severity of the illness, which the vaccines are good at.  This is what keeps the hospitalization rates low.


Why stop at coercing vaccines? Ban smoking. 48,000 Canadians are estimated to die every year of smoking related causes. If you're counting, that's 1.25 COVID-19s every year (2 years and counting of 2 weeks to flatten the curve). What about alcohol? 15,000 deaths per year. 50% of COVID every year.

Maybe the inconvenient truth is the sacred cow of Single Payer healthcare in Canada has created a system wholly unable to handle any sort of serious respiratory virus. We love to demonize the "unvaccinated" but if our real issue is hospital capacity we've done SFA to increase it with $300+ Billion CAD in the last 2 years and no long term plan to fix it.


----------



## Quirky (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Are politicians not allowed to pose for pictures to score political points with their base anymore? That may prove problematic for some...



Support of protestors means support for allegedly trying to light an apartment building on fire and supporting nazi flags. Can’t you see it’s a package deal? 

Duh.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Support of protestors means support for allegedly trying to light an apartment building on fire and supporting nazi flags. Can’t you see it’s a package deal?
> 
> Duh.


I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or the stupidest post of the week candidate.


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm not sure what your point is, she has been pretty open about her support for them all along...
> 
> Are politicians not allowed to pose for pictures to score political points with their base anymore? That may prove problematic for some...
> 
> More importantly though, one side acting dumb is hardly an excuse for the other to act just as dumb. Politicians like stoking the fire because they think in terms of winning the next election, not what impact this might have on Canada in 10 years. Canadians should be demanding more from them, not playing mini versions of the same "gotcha" political games.


I'll make sure to write a strongly worded letter to all politicans demanding better.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> OK.  I go out of my way to avoid engaging with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tell me what about my statement isn't  true. All four Presidents made the promise. Clinton, Bush and Obama broke that promise. Trump made the promise and kept it.

That is fact.
Reasons why they reneged and broke their promise and Trump didn't, or how many people polled liked it or not. You brought that in, because you had nothing to refute my fact.

Your 'facts' pertain to a single poll, from a magazine. 

That is an opinion. Pure speculation.
For every poll you can pull up, to favour you, another against can be found

But that's what you do. When you want to centre someone out, for whatever reason, you search for polls and opinions to favour your stance. If you go out of your way to avoid me, why do you insist in dragging us into these useless conversations all the time?

Fin


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Feb 2022)

.


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Why stop at coercing vaccines? Ban smoking. 48,000 Canadians are estimated to die every year of smoking related causes. If you're counting, that's 1.25 COVID-19s every year (2 years and counting of 2 weeks to flatten the curve). What about alcohol? 15,000 deaths per year. 50% of COVID every year.


Well, it’s not like we don’t have any laws coercing us into doing something.  We wear seatbelts for essentially the same reasons we get the vaccine. Yet, in 1987, some Albertans had the same old arguments that they didn’t want to be coerced into doing something….

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/june-22-1987-albertans-prepare-for-seatbelt-law-1.3649730

As far are smoking goes, New Zealand is doing just that.









						New Zealand's unique cigarette ban may be a model for other countries
					

A newly passed law effectively imposes a lifetime cigarette ban for people aged 14 and younger. Researchers applauded it but said similar bans elsewhere could be more challenging.




					www.npr.org
				




I would have zero issues with something like his in Canada.  We would need to be cautious of the second order effects and implement it incrementally as to not create other health issues as are already addicted.


PuckChaser said:


> Maybe the inconvenient truth is the sacred cow of Single Payer healthcare in Canada has created a system wholly unable to handle any sort of serious respiratory virus. We love to demonize the "unvaccinated" but if our real issue is hospital capacity we've done SFA to increase it with $300+ Billion CAD in the last 2 years and no long term plan to fix it.



The issue of overwhelming healthcare systems is not limited to Canada and its systems. It is a worldwide issue. While our healthcare systems are less than optimal, they were not the cause for why hospital were overflowing. The virulence of COVID-19 was and one way to curb its virulence is by getting vaccinated.


----------



## Quirky (8 Feb 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> The virulence of COVID-19 was and one way to curb its virulence is by getting vaccinated.


You aren’t going to convince the enough of the unvaccinated to get their doses to make any significant change in hospital numbers. The current idiotic federal regulations are worse than the covid disease.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> The issue of overwhelming healthcare systems is not limited to Canada and its systems. It is a worldwide issue. While our healthcare systems are less than optimal, they were not the cause for why hospital were overflowing. The virulence of COVID-19 was and one way to curb its virulence is by getting vaccinated.



COVID simply exposed how poorly we've managed and funded our HCS.

I also ponder if it exposed the fallacy of the single payer system.


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> COVID simply exposed how poorly we've managed and funded our HCS.
> 
> I also pond and if it exposed the fallacy of the single payer system.


How do you explain the capacity issues in a COVID-19 context with other types of healthcare system around the world?


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

About that whole "who should the government be talking to?" thing, nothing says unity of message and demands more than "new spokesperson" ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490925393498767362
Meanwhile, Randy Hillier's happy with how "Russia Today" shares stories about everything _except_ what's happening in Russia today ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490749410887802891


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> About that whole "who should the government be talking to?" thing, nothing says unity of message and demands more than "new spokesperson" ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490925393498767362
> Meanwhile, Randy Hillier's happy with how "Russia Today" shares stories about everything _except_ what's happening in Russia today ...
> ...


So if I understand this the new rep wants to sit with the GG and the opposition?  But not the government?

I wonder if the opposition parties will actually do that.   The GG won’t that’s for sure.

Edit:  He is a former CAF officer.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> How do you explain the capacity issues in a COVID-19 context with other types of healthcare system around the world?



I'm honestly not concerned about how other country's structure, finance and manage their HCS.  There is no reason we cannot come up with a Canadian solution.


----------



## kev994 (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> So if I understand this the new rep wants to sit with the GG and the opposition?  But not the government?
> 
> I wonder if the opposition parties will actually do that.   The GG won’t that’s for sure.
> 
> Edit:  He is a former CAF officer.


The sitting government has already said flat out no, so presumably they’re trying to do something achievable. Also presumably doesn’t know what the GG does.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm honestly not concerned about how other country's structure, finance and manage their HCS.  There is no reason we cannot come up with a Canadian solution.


Agreed.  There are lessons that can be learned from others but Canada really needs its own solution.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> The sitting government has already said flat out no, so presumably they’re trying to do something achievable. Also presumably doesn’t know what the GG does.


Would be a better strategy to keep asking the government.  Keep saying they still refuse to come to the table. 

Mentioning the GG, “Coalition”and all the opposition parties sounds like they are still on the dissolve government issue. 

I wonder if the Conservative leadership will meet with them.


----------



## Drallib (8 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Personally?  I think they didn’t think things through.
> 
> That doesn’t invalidate the point of giving more than a passing consideration to the MH side of the situation.



Speaking of mental health, I run children's ministries and I had a great concern for their mental health with isolation. I'm not sure what the statistics are right now, but I did that math, and concluded that if every person under a certain age (15 or 17, not sure) got COVID 19, they would still be 5x more likely to die from suicide.


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm honestly not concerned about how other country's structure, finance and manage their HCS.  There is no reason we cannot come up with a Canadian solution.


No but you say how our system is built is the reason for overflowing hospitals during the pandemic.  What I am pointing out is that pretty much every other country (and their different systems) had the exact same issues. This doesn’t support your assertion.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> No but you say how our system is built is the reason for overflowing hospitals during the pandemic.  What I am pointing out is that pretty much every other country (and their different systems) had the exact same issues. This doesn’t support your assertion.


Ok fine so all the systems are broken ?  So we shouldn't investigate different ways do this ?  I'm not sure what you're on about.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> No but you say how our system is built is the reason for overflowing hospitals during the pandemic.  What I am pointing out is that pretty much every other country (and their different systems) had the exact same issues. This doesn’t support your assertion.


Good point.  I imagine that health care systems are not built for pandemics of this magnitude.  

Maybe we’ve been lucky so far but if pandemics are predicted to be a thing (a normal state of things) then maybe we should have something that can contract and expand in order to adapt.  I have no idea how that would work (ie have a military that could actually augment the health care system by say 10% in those cases or have an infrastructure plan already in place for overflow or cross train health care providers and first responders or even create a funded volunteer force that could activate.  Just spit balling here but fix what we have and make sure it can adapt to fluctuations caused by things like a pandemic.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Good point.  I imagine that health care systems are not built for pandemics of this magnitude.
> 
> Maybe we’ve been lucky so far but if pandemics are predicted to be a thing (a normal state of things) then maybe we should have something that can contract and expand in order to adapt.  I have no idea how that would work (ie have a military that could actually augment the health care system by say 10% in those cases or have an infrastructure plan already in place for overflow or cross train health care providers and first responders or even create a funded volunteer force that could activate.  Just spit balling here but fix what we have and make sure it can adapt to fluctuations caused by things like a pandemic.



One point about equipment.  Its much like the problems with our supply chain.  We need lots of medical stores and equipment sitting around collecting dust for SHTF scenarios.  And those dust collectors need to be constantly maintained and moved through life cycle and replaced as required to stay ready.   The problem is this costs money.


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

The media spin machine is cranking it up again. The language used in this article would make you think there is an actual insurrection ongoing in Canada...

Why Canadian intelligence agencies never saw the freedom convoy coming

It's great that a Carlton U prof wants CISIS to start spying on Canadians, and compiling lists of people who support wrongthink. Makes you wonder how worried the Laurentian Elites are getting, and if they are starting to grasp the consequences of wedge politics.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> One point about equipment.  Its much like the problems with our supply chain.  We need lots of medical stores and equipment sitting around collecting dust for SHTF scenarios.  And those dust collectors need to be constantly maintained and moved through life cycle and replaced as required to stay ready.   The problem is this costs money.


If we treat those things as strategic assets why not have reserve medical units manage some of it.  Two birds with one stone.  It keeps reserve field Ambs equipped but you would have constant life cycling if they took on a more active logistical role.  It would require some partnerships and MOUs.  Not THE solution to it but could be one part of something more comprehensive.  You could actually make it a mission task.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If we treat those things as strategic assets why not have reserve medical units manage some of it.  Two birds with one stone.  It keeps reserve field Ambs equipped but you would have constant life cycling if they took on a more active logistical role.  It would require some partnerships and MOUs.  Not THE solution to it but could be one part of something more comprehensive.  You could actually make it a mission task.


Its a good idea though.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> The media spin machine is cranking it up again. The language used in this article would make you think there is an actual insurrection ongoing in Canada...
> 
> Why Canadian intelligence agencies never saw the freedom convoy coming
> 
> It's great that a Carlton U prof wants CISIS to start spying on Canadians, and compiling lists of people who support wrongthink. Makes you wonder how worried the Laurentian Elites are getting, and if they are starting to grasp the consequences of wedge politics.


That guy forgets that police and criminal intelligence is a thing.  

To be fair, I don’t even think the convoy knew itself how big it would get or even what they would do when they reached Ottawa.  Hard to predict that. 

Anyone listen to Zello?  Seems like a Great place to gather a variety of intelligence or trends if you can ignore the weirder stuff.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> The media spin machine is cranking it up again. The language used in this article would make you think there is an actual insurrection ongoing in Canada...
> 
> Why Canadian intelligence agencies never saw the freedom convoy coming
> 
> It's great that a Carlton U prof wants CISIS to start spying on Canadians, and compiling lists of people who support wrongthink. Makes you wonder how worried the Laurentian Elites are getting, and if they are starting to grasp the consequences of wedge politics.


Stalinist and Chairman Mao style repression. Does this esteemed member of the intellectual community support KGB style repression? Or gulags? Re education camps?

What an ass hat 🎩


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Stalinist and Chairman Mao style repression. Does this esteemed member of the intellectual community support KGB style repression? Or gulags? Re education camps?
> 
> What an ass hat 🎩



Only for those who do not belong to his party of course.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> One point about equipment.  Its much like the problems with our supply chain.  We need lots of medical stores and equipment sitting around collecting dust for SHTF scenarios.  And those dust collectors need to be constantly maintained and moved through life cycle and replaced as required to stay ready.   The problem is this costs money.


Hospitals have a high burn rate, each of the Provincial Health agencies agrees to buy X percentage from the stockpile. Stock comes in at one end and goes out the other. A buy automatically triggers a purchase.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Hospitals have a high burn rate, each of the Provincial Health agencies agrees to buy X percentage from the stockpile. Stock comes in at one end and goes out the other. A buy automatically triggers a purchase.



I'm not thinking hospitals so much as "Civil Medical Depots" (it just made that up) stocked with a sundry of medical material that may be required by our HCS and/or population in a time of need.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (8 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Not that I'm disagreeing, the treaty 'system' and Indian Act no doubt create inequity, but you would be hard pressed to find any FN willing to eliminate either, or even agree how they should be re-written.  Many FNs do not accept that they are pigs in your analogy.
> 
> It is a matter of perspective on who power-grabbed who.  Elected councils band councils are a child of the Indian Act (regional, provincial, etc. FN bodies are not legislatively supported).  I'm all for them to sort out their internal politics and have the government deal with the winner.
> 
> There have been several commentators, Aboriginal and others, who claim that this protest sets a double standard and that if it was an Aboriginal protest the police would have quickly gone in with force.  I can't think of any FN protest or blockade in recent history that hasn't been protracted, and most, if not all, ultimate police action was supported by an injunction.  In some cases, FN blockades are complicated by a claim of right, not all of which have been settled by the courts.



They might not accept they are the pigs in the analogy but that doesn't mean they aren't. There is no group of people on this planet with more rights, opportunities, and freedoms than a aboriginal in Canada. There is obviously historical issues, but that doesn't mean that there isn't many benefits which come with those historical issues and treaties as well. 

As to those who claim a double standard for if this was a Aboriginal protest that is simply seeing this though extremely biased eyes to attempt to push their race based agenda. We literally had the police refuse to enact a court order to evict them off the tracks and actually went and sat with them instead the last time we had major protests like this. So far if anything they have been harsher to the truckers as I don't recall seeing them preventing resources from getting into the railway blockers. 

I am beginning to see the logic behind the governments intent to ban firearms though. You marginalize and discriminate against 10% of your population actively, you certainly don't want them to have the ability to resist you. It only takes 10% of the population not following a law for it to become ineffective as you no longer can enforce it.


----------



## Happy Guy (8 Feb 2022)

I will be curious to read the numerous reports from the government (all levels) inquiries that will be initiated as a result of this pandemic and the City of Ottawa response to this protest.

I wonder if our Health Care System (all levels) will get the necessary attention that it deserves and hopefully a long term fix.  I know that this is a complex Federal/Provincial government issue.  Stable long term funding is only one of the many required solutions.  My daughter works in health care and she has strong views on the issues and how to fix them.

I wonder if Canada will have a more robust Pandemic Response System and structure with stable long term funding.

I wonder how the public reaction to the political parties and involved Law Enforcement agencies will be after the inquires are published.  I wonder how many "I told you so" persons / agencies will point fingers.

I wonder how the Federal, Provincial and City government will deal with protests such as the Trucker's Convoy Protest in the future?  Do we equip the police to the extent like they do in the USA? Set up a joint crisis management team to deal the protest - joint statements unlike now?

I wonder how the Ontario gov't will view the City of Ottawa with respect to political support, Law Enforcement and resources.  IMO, historically the City of Toronto and its surrounding metropolitan area (Golden Horseshoe) tends to the be the focus of the Premier. and the cabinet.   Ottawa tends to be forgotten because of the Federal gov't and the National Capital Commission (NCC) here.

I wonder how the Ottawa City Council will view funding towards the OPS.  Wi ll the OPS approach to policing change?  More funding or change in the funing model?

Despite all the criticism directed towards the OPS, I still support them as well as the other involved law enforcement and supporting agencies (RCMP, OPP, Parliament Hill Protective Services).  Not an easy job considering the resources they had and the political pressure that they had to deal with. 

Cheers


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> The sitting government has already said flat out no, so presumably they’re trying to do something achievable. Also presumably doesn’t know what the GG does.


Also part of the MOU some say is not in play anymore  - note who's mentioned and who isn't ...


> ... Canada  Unity  (CU) offers  this “Memorandum” to  the Senate of  Canada and the Governor General  of Canada, the highest authorities representing the Federal Government (SCGGC) as “The Government of Canada” ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Feb 2022)

> Stable long term funding



Pretty much everything needs stable long term funding (SLTF).  There are more things competing for SLTF than there is SLTF to go around.  So what mix of costs down, taxes up, and other program cuts will it be?


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Only for those who do not belong to his party of course.


Even some of them will be scrutinized. Pol Pot had the intelligentsia killed - murdered, body count was about two million IIRC


----------



## OceanBonfire (8 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Why would he meet avowed white supremacists calling for race war (the protest organizers - who,  for the record, are not truckers nor representative of truckers).



They've always been "deplorables" since the beginning. Just look at the "flags" they're flying:









						‘Incredibly scary’: How Canada’s trucker convoy protest is galvanizing the American right - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Several Republicans, including former U.S. president Donald Trump, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and Texas Sen. Ted Cruz, have voiced support for the protest in Ottawa.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Trump calls Trudeau 'far left lunatic,' expresses support for convoy
					

Former U.S. president Donald Trump has issued a statement criticizing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau over vaccine mandates and expressing support for the trucker convoy protests happening across Canada.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Protesters on horseback participate in 'Freedom Convoy' demonstration in downtown Ottawa
					

Just before 1 p.m., two men toured Wellington Street near Parliament Hill riding the horses, named Boony and Homer.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




And health care workers abused:



> “I bet you love doing abortions, that’s why you’ve got a hyphen in your name, couldn’t even take take your f— husband’s last name. I’m sure of it. Another f—— extreme leftist, freakin’ extreme feminist c– who is just trying to destroy the world. Those people are fighting for your freedoms too, you dumb c—.”











						From heroes to hated: Health-care workers sign open letter slamming abuse - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In one email obtained by Global News, healthcare workers were told to wear "street clothes" on their way to work, "not clothing which identifies you as a healthcare worker."




					globalnews.ca


----------



## dapaterson (8 Feb 2022)

Thought for the day: I've never seen Barbara Streisand or Kim Cattrall carrying a "F***Trudeau" flag.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Thought for the day: I've never seen Barbara Streisand or Kim Cattrall carrying a "F***Trudeau" flag.



Would effect you if they did ?


----------



## Spencer100 (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> COVID simply exposed how poorly we've managed and funded our HCS.
> 
> I also ponder if it exposed the fallacy of the single payer system.


And that there is underlying problem.  Everything in this country is available to be sacrificed on the holy alter of the single payer system.  Above all else.


----------



## dapaterson (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Would effect you it you did ?


Swing and a miss.


----------



## lenaitch (8 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> They might not accept they are the pigs in the analogy but that doesn't mean they aren't. There is no group of people on this planet with more rights, opportunities, and freedoms than a aboriginal in Canada. There is obviously historical issues, but that doesn't mean that there isn't many benefits which come with those historical issues and treaties as well.
> 
> As to those who claim a double standard for if this was a Aboriginal protest that is simply seeing this though extremely biased eyes to attempt to push their race based agenda. We literally had the police refuse to enact a court order to evict them off the tracks and actually went and sat with them instead the last time we had major protests like this. So far if anything they have been harsher to the truckers as I don't recall seeing them preventing resources from getting into the railway blockers.
> 
> I am beginning to see the logic behind the governments intent to ban firearms though. You marginalize and discriminate against 10% of your population actively, you certainly don't want them to have the ability to resist you. It only takes 10% of the population not following a law for it to become ineffective as you no longer can enforce it.


The "they" who went and sat with the protestors at the Tyendinaga blockade were members of the Provincial Liaison Team and possibly the Incident Commander, which was formed as a result of the Ipperwash Inquiry to try and defuse.  The court order was enforced, just not right away.  Police still have to consider public safety over financial (CN) interests.  Many protests have a habit of including kids and the elderly, just begging for adverse press.  And there is always concern about weapons at any civil unrest.  Trust me, there is much more police intelligence on this aspect that the public is aware of.  Aboriginal protests and blockades are just as prone to 'rogue elements' as any other.


Happy Guy said:


> I will be curious to read the numerous reports from the government (all levels) inquiries that will be initiated as a result of this pandemic and the City of Ottawa response to this protest.
> 
> I wonder if our Health Care System (all levels) will get the necessary attention that it deserves and hopefully a long term fix.  I know that this is a complex Federal/Provincial government issue.  Stable long term funding is only one of the many required solutions.  My daughter works in health care and she has strong views on the issues and how to fix them.
> 
> ...


I would suspect one of the first asks will be for a larger base subsidy from the feds to cover the spin-offs from its presence.

I also suspect that the Chief's contract may come under greater consideration when it is up for renewal, whenever that is (he's been Chief since 2019).  It seems that having a leader who ticks all of the 'soft' boxes of inclusion, diversity, community, etc. plus the 'hard' boxes' of solid and decisive operational leadership when things get messy is a ongoing challenge.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Good point.  I imagine that health care systems are not built for pandemics of this magnitude.
> 
> Maybe we’ve been lucky so far but if pandemics are predicted to be a thing (a normal state of things) then maybe we should have something that can contract and expand in order to adapt.  I have no idea how that would work (ie* have a military that could actually augment the health care system by say 10% in those cases* or have an infrastructure plan already in place for overflow or cross train health care providers and first responders or even create a funded volunteer force that could activate.  Just spit balling here but fix what we have and make sure it can adapt to fluctuations caused by things like a pandemic.



For context.  To have a system that could expand or augment by 10% (whether it be military or otherwise), the number of regulated health care professionals in a direct patient care role that would be needed (sitting around, waiting, hopefully keeping skills intact) would be:

NPs:  606
PTs :  2341
Pharmacists:  3880
LPNs:  11371
RNs:  25887
RPNs:  519
OTs:  1525
Physicians:  9217
Total    *55346*
(_LPNs: Licensed practical nurses; NPs: Nurse practitioners; OTs: Occupational therapists; PTs: Physiotherapists; RNs: Registered nurses; RPNs: Registered psychiatric nurses._)

And that doesn't calculate the numbers of other professionals (lab, diagnostic imaging, etc) as well as non-regulated support staff (cleaners, admin, food svc, maintenance, etc) needed to provide patient care.  Obviously, there is some hyperbole in this calculation.

I arrived at these numbers from




__





						Health workforce in Canada: In focus (including nurses and physicians) | CIHI
					

This report summarizes some of the most critical issues facing Canada’s health care systems and betters our understanding of these issues with the most current pan-Canadian data available.




					www.cihi.ca
				







__





						Physicians | CIHI
					

Yearly reports and analyses that contain wide-ranging information about physicians from multiple data sources.




					www.cihi.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> ... It's great that a Carlton U prof wants CISIS to start spying on Canadians, and compiling lists of people who support wrongthink. Makes you wonder how worried the Laurentian Elites are getting, and if they are starting to grasp the consequences of wedge politics.


I wonder if those calling for this think about how happy they'd be if, because of a change of government, targeting priorities change to the point where they might be included in the new fishing net?  ALWAYS great when someone you don't like gets snared, not so much if you might.


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I wonder if those calling for this think about how happy they'd be if, because of a change of government, targeting priorities change to the point where they might be included in the new fishing net?  ALWAYS great when someone you don't like gets snared, not so much if you might.


The people in power never really think about what happens when they are no longer in power.


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

An interesting turn of events, perhaps spurred by the ongoing protest in Ottawa, and the protests elsewhere. 

Liberal MP breaks ranks and criticizes public health policies dividing Canadians

I hope he isn't turfed for representing his constituents.


----------



## Kilted (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> An interesting turn of events, perhaps spurred by the ongoing protest in Ottawa, and the protests elsewhere.
> 
> Liberal MP breaks ranks and criticizes public health policies dividing Canadians
> 
> I hope he isn't turfed for representing his constituents.


I can't see how he won't be.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Feb 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> I will be curious to read the numerous reports from the government (all levels) inquiries that will be initiated as a result of this pandemic and the City of Ottawa response to this protest.
> 
> I wonder if our Health Care System (all levels) will get the necessary attention that it deserves and hopefully a long term fix.  I know that this is a complex Federal/Provincial government issue.  Stable long term funding is only one of the many required solutions.  My daughter works in health care and she has strong views on the issues and how to fix them.
> 
> ...


Our healthcare system has become a religion and getting a religion to change comes with all sorts of issues. To many Canadians identify as Canadians based on our current healthcare system. Be careful what you suggest or you be burned at the stake.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm not thinking hospitals so much as "Civil Medical Depots" (it just made that up) stocked with a sundry of medical material that may be required by our HCS and/or population in a time of need.


As pointed out by others here, maintaining that stockpile is a big issue. The shelf life of things like masks is not terribly long. Having a good chunk of the Provincial healthcare PPE purchases come from the stockpile, with new orders at the same time, means that it would turnover fairly quickly.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> As pointed out by others here, maintaining that stockpile is a big issue. The shelf life of things like masks is not terribly long. Having a good chunk of the Provincial healthcare PPE purchases come from the stockpile, with new orders at the same time, means that it would turnover fairly quickly.



Absolutely.  I pointed it out as well.  Being prepared costs money.  A lot of money.   But we have a choices to make on how we spend our tax dollars.  

Much like our situation in the CFSS, which we have neglected for far too long but that's a whole other topic.  If we want an available robust moments notice response it costs money.  Or we continue on as per... Or perhaps we come up with some other solution.  Who knows.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

About 100 convoy trucks in downtown Ottawa have children living inside: police
					

Ottawa police say about a quarter of vehicles parked in downtown Ottawa as part of the trucker protests have children living in them, and authorities are worried for their safety.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




Some things to consider for those calling for increased police enforcement. 

Also linked in the article is the current polling from Ottawa residents about the protest/occupation.


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I can't see how he won't be.


If he has enough support in the back benches the "leadership" may be worried about revolt if they boot him. The opposition just removed their leader after doing better than the previous one in an election. Trudeau has done worse in each election since taking over the LPC, and is polling rather low in public opinion right now. 

The Chretien, and Martin loyalists may still have their knives sharpened...


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> The sitting government has already said flat out no, so presumably they’re trying to do something achievable. Also presumably doesn’t know what the GG does.


Or that the NDP has taken as hard a line or harder against the convoy as the LPC


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Feb 2022)

> The people in power never really think about what happens when they are no longer in power.



Oh, they know.  Just observe how batsh!t crazy some people go when their team loses an election.


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> If he has enough support in the back benches the "leadership" may be worried about revolt if they boot him. The opposition just removed their leader after doing better than the previous one in an election. Trudeau has done worse in each election since taking over the LPC, and is polling rather low in public opinion right now.
> 
> The Chretien, and Martin loyalists may still have their knives sharpened...


The LPC has chosen not to use the reform act, no revolt can happen.


----------



## dapaterson (8 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491139647996829698


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491139647996829698


Rebel Forces?

Is this fucking Star Wars now? When does the Empire send in Darth Vader????


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The LPC has chosen not to use the reform act, no revolt can happen.


It can, just not in the same way. Paul Martin did pretty well dethroning Jean Chretien by backroom maneuvering.

If the divisions in the LPC come out, they have proven just as, if not more capable, of turfing leaders as the CPC are. When your team is on top it can be hard to remember that it wasn't that long ago the LPC was the third party in the house


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Rebel Forces?
> 
> Is this fucking Star Wars now? When does the Empire send in Darth Vader????


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

I actually love that…lol.  Rebel forces.


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> It can, just not in the same way. Paul Martin did pretty well dethroning Jean Chretien by backroom maneuvering.
> 
> If the divisions in the LPC come out, they have proven just as, if not more capable, of turfing leaders as the CPC are. When your team is on top it can be hard to remember that it wasn't that long ago the LPC was the third party in the house


Every party has dissenting opinions.

Are you particularly worried that the CPC has MPs coming out slamming the convoy as well as those supporting them? Probably not.

Besides, Lightbound is pretty clear, he doesn't support the truckers. He wants them to leave. He just doesn't like the tone of the PM or the mandates in place.


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491071557967429633
Injunctions!


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491071557967429633
> Injunctions!


I’m no legal expert.  But I think that failure to follow the injunctions (enforced or not) will only strengthen the lawsuit that is happening.  It’s just another tool.


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m no legal expert.  But I think that failure to follow the injunctions (enforced or not) will only strengthen the lawsuit that is happening.  It’s just another tool.


I am almost certain that even if the lawsuit is successful they will not collect a dime.


----------



## Spencer100 (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I actually love that…lol.  Rebel forces.


Well the rebel forces win in the end!


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I am almost certain that even if the lawsuit is successful they will not collect a dime.


Possibly.  But there is a nice fundraiser that might be available. Not sure how that all works.  But we’ll see.


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Well the rebel forces win in the end!


You’ve seen the last three movies right?  That wasn’t a win.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Rebel Forces?
> 
> Is this fucking Star Wars now? When does the Empire send in Darth Vader????



"Global Military Alliance" sounds like something out of a movie too.


----------



## Furniture (8 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Every party has dissenting opinions.
> 
> Are you particularly worried that the CPC has MPs coming out slamming the convoy as well as those supporting them? Probably not.
> 
> Besides, Lightbound is pretty clear, he doesn't support the truckers. He wants them to leave. He just doesn't like the tone of the PM or the mandates in place.


Actually, I am concerned that the CPC is going to fracture... So there goes your "gotcha". Still playing the partisan games, rather than at least attempting to step back, and see things from a more balanced perspective? 

The connection between Mr. Lightbound and the protest, is that the protest is encouraging those who oppose mandates to speak up. I've said before, but apparently I need to clarify again, I don't support the protest. I do support an end to the vaccine mandates though, and an end to the constant wedges being driven between Canadians. 

That said, I do appreciate the trolling, and humour being deployed by the protesters, I am human after all. The jerry cans filled with water or Kool-Aid is epic.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m no legal expert.  But I think that failure to follow the injunctions (enforced or not) will only strengthen the lawsuit that is happening.  It’s just another tool.


It's not the arrest that screws someone, it's the mountains of bureaucratic paperwork, legal bills, court appearances, etc that follow 

Short of killing someone or committing some sort of felony, most arrests result in some sort of minimal slap on the wrist at best in terms of what the actual punishment is.  If you don't comply with the Police Ordered Conditions though (aka don't do any of these things while we get to the bottom of this)..... OH BOY LOOKOUT!


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Ooohhh.  War crimes.


PMedMoe said:


> "Global Military Alliance" sounds like something out of a movie too.
> 
> View attachment 68574


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> "Global Military Alliance" sounds like something out of a movie too.
> 
> View attachment 68574


Moe that’s equally ridiculous, but it does ring true to some.


----------



## Altair (8 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Actually, I am concerned that the CPC is going to fracture... So there goes your "gotcha". Still playing the partisan games, rather than at least attempting to step back, and see things from a more balanced perspective?


It's the Westminster system, party control only has so much power. Look at the current crisis PM Johnson is dealing with in the UK as an example of MPs in open revolt. I don't see that here. 

So taking a step back, yes, the protests are putting pressure on MPs, and polarizing Canadians, which does lead to someone like Lightbound to come out and say what he did. But the question that needs to be asked, is this a MP speaking his mind, or a open revolt? 


Furniture said:


> The connection between Mr. Lightbound and the protest, is that the protest is encouraging those who oppose mandates to speak up. I've said before, but apparently I need to clarify again, I don't support the protest. I do support an end to the vaccine mandates though, and an end to the constant wedges being driven between Canadians.


Huh. Could have fooled me. I also support the end of mandate, but likely for different reasons than your own.


Furniture said:


> That said, I do appreciate the trolling, and humour being deployed by the protesters, I am human after all. The jerry cans filled with water or Kool-Aid is epic.


Meh.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Feb 2022)

> Rebel Forces?



Presumably someone's idea of a joke/hoax.  No-one in Canada is stupid enough to pull the kind of insurrection/revolt/coup hysteria-fanning behaviour seen in the US.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> You’ve seen the last three movies right?  That wasn’t a win.


But the SJW angle was.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m no legal expert.  But I think that failure to follow the injunctions (enforced or not) will only strengthen the lawsuit that is happening.  It’s just another tool.



And neither am I, except having been accused years ago of tending to the barracks room type.  However, as I understand it, the order for the injunction against horn blowing (a civil action) will not automatically put police authorities into gear to enforce it.  In some hasty research into how the system works it would seem that the normal path followed is:   (_an opinion from our resident lawyer would be appreciated_)

Civil suit filed with specific injunctive relief sought
Judge issues order of injunction
Respondents do not comply
Applicants file that respondents are in contempt of court order
Judge rules they are in contempt and then issues an enforcement order
Police now get involve enforcing that specific order
Attorney General may (or may not) seek "criminal" contempt of court charges for further non-compliance
Police could then start arresting non-compliant respondents

This seems to be the pattern followed in most of the pre-pandemic protests (i.e., BC logging, pipelines, First Nations)

Some discussion of it in "THE NEW NORMAL? NATURAL RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT, CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE, AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF" from the 2017 Alberta Law Review  https://albertalawreview.com/index.php/ALR/article/download/1248/1237/1353



> V. ENFORCING THE ORDER
> A. CONTEMPT PROCEEDINGS
> 
> The traditional remedy for intentionally violating an injunction is a contempt of court proceeding. There are two forms of contempt proceedings: civil (brought within the underlying civil proceeding) and criminal (brought by the Attorney General, who will be responsible for prosecuting the proceeding). Typically, criminal contempt requires proof of “public defiance” of the order. The elements of the offences are the same, although there are differences in sentencing options, as well as the stigma associated with the proceeding.
> ...



While the judge issued an injunction against horn blowing, I haven't seen anything that mentions an enforcement order, but I could have missed it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Feb 2022)

The protesters erred by not preempting the court order by announcing they only blow their horns at designated spots and at designated hours, away from most of the residents.


----------



## Kilted (8 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Rebel Forces?
> 
> Is this fucking Star Wars now? When does the Empire send in Darth Vader????


Wait...does that make me a stormtrooper?


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Wait...does that make me a stormtrooper?


Is your rifle zeroed?  How much range time does the CAF provide?  

Yes.  Yes you are.


----------



## Happy Guy (8 Feb 2022)

It has been almost seven months since I've retired.  I didn't realize that the CAF now has Storm Troopers and laser guns.
What is the effective range of a laser gun of a Storm Trooper?
Do they even have range time or it is on simulators to save costs?  How ammo does /energy packs do those things have?
Do we now have Star Destoryers?

WOW!


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Feb 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> It has been almost seven months since I've retired.  I didn't realize that the CAF now has Storm Troopers and laser guns.
> What is the effective range of a laser gun of a Storm Trooper?
> Do they even have range time or it is on simulators to save costs?  How ammo does /energy packs do those things have?
> Do we now have Star Destoryers?
> ...


In good Canadian fashion, we bought the lasers pre-owned from New Zealand but we didn’t get all the documentation to effectively use them. We’ll spend millions on an operational test campaign that will expend all our laser rounds and we have no procurement mechanism in place to procure more. It’ll take another 15 years to put in place the procurement mechanism to replenish our stock, in time to retire the lasers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Feb 2022)

Pierre Poilievre on the Canadian Freedom Convoy 2022​




He brings up some great examples of guilt by association, and an example of the Honourable Prime Minister looking at a man holding a swastika saying thank you for coming sir instead of taking an opportunity to condemn it.


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Pierre Poilievre on the Canadian Freedom Convoy 2022​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Especially Trudeau telling a swastika-carrying individual back in 2018 “thank you for coming, sir…” is a solid point.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Pierre Poilievre on the Canadian Freedom Convoy 2022​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My 'DREAM JOB' is Member of Parliament Backbencher.....

I will get paid a six figure salary and won't have to do anything other than sit in the back of a room and yell FORE SHAME at the top of my lungs!


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

In local news.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-convoy-protest-shack-towed-reaction-1.6342357


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I don't  want anyone thinking this is crazy, or somehow imposing on anyone. With the exception of those people standing out on the road this is normal eveyday traffic here. This border crossing has the largest flow of goods going back and forth. Packed and at a standstill, is just regular daily traffic around here. Basically, nothing to see here, move along.


Slowed down, with commercial traffic shunted to Sarnia, but still not down to zero - this from Windsor police ....


> ... our focus is on maintaining open communications with organizers of the demonstrations and using a reasoned, tempered approach, including the appropriate use of police discretion to guide our police personnel's responses.
> 
> The Windsor Police Service has a large police presence monitoring the demonstrations along Huron Church Rd. These activities have interrupted normal vehicle traffic flow but we have been able to continue a limited amount of access to the Ambassador Bridge. Officers are on scene addressing traffic points, public safety and enforcement. *Commercial vehicles are being redirected to the Blue Water Bridge in Sarnia. The Detroit-Windsor Tunnel remains open to non-commercial vehicles*. Please avoid the area, use alternative routes and monitor our social media for updates.
> 
> The Windsor Police Service has maintained communications with main organizers but we want to urge those involved in illegal activity not to endanger members of the public or first responders, including police personnel, and jeopardize public peace. Those found committing crimes and acts of violence will be investigated and charges will be laid ...


----------



## lenaitch (8 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> While the judge issued an injunction against horn blowing, I haven't seen anything that mentions an enforcement order, but I could have missed it.


Screen grab from the Ottawa Citizen of the Order giving the police authority to enforce.  No offence is created but their might be something in court proceedings legislation.  'Contempt' for repeated violations by the same person _might_ be applicable but I don't really know.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> While the judge issued an injunction against horn blowing, I haven't seen anything that mentions an enforcement order, but I could have missed it.


At first glance, this bit of the CCC seems to fit in general ....


> Disobeying order of court
> 
> *127* (1) Every one who, without lawful excuse, disobeys a lawful order made by a court of justice or by a person or body of persons authorized by any Act to make or give the order, other than an order for the payment of money, is, unless a punishment or other mode of proceeding is expressly provided by law, guilty of
> (a) an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
> (b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> ... Meanwhile, Randy Hillier's happy with how "Russia Today" shares stories about everything _except_ what's happening in Russia today ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490749410887802891


And my fave satire account responds ....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491044697569374208


----------



## suffolkowner (8 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> About 100 convoy trucks in downtown Ottawa have children living inside: police
> 
> 
> Ottawa police say about a quarter of vehicles parked in downtown Ottawa as part of the trucker protests have children living in them, and authorities are worried for their safety.
> ...


that would be on Doug Ford. Have to bring the kids, no $10 a day childcare


----------



## Remius (8 Feb 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> that would be on Doug Ford. Have to bring the kids, no $10 a day childcare


A lot of of Alberta plates so they’re all good


----------



## Spencer100 (8 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> But the SJW angle was.


In my other life the fun time job gets me some Hollywood insights.  We will start seeing the sequels being go non-cannon. The newer CEO and new chairperson basically to shit can the woke and make the fans happy....let me know if we should start a Hollywood rumors thread?


----------



## lenaitch (8 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> "Global Military Alliance" sounds like something out of a movie too.
> 
> View attachment 68574


I looked for Global Military Alliance in 411 - couldn't find it.  The Deep State has obviously scrubbed it.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I looked for Global Military Alliance in 411 - couldn't find it.  The Deep State has obviously scrubbed it.



Geez, it didn't even make this list:

List of conspiracy theories​








						List of conspiracy theories - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Gunnar (8 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Thought for the day: I've never seen Barbara Streisand or Kim Cattrall carrying a "F***Trudeau" flag.


That’s cuz Streisand already did (Sr)


----------



## kkwd (9 Feb 2022)

Gunnar said:


> That’s cuz Streisand already did (Sr)


It's been over 12 hours with no posts in this thread, is it dead? Well, at least it went out with a "bang" ‼️


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> It's been over 12 hours with no posts in this thread, is it dead? Well, at least it went out with a "bang" ‼️


Rumours that the protest is starting to leave today.  Was posted on TikTok by one of the leaders.  Probably another fake post.  Said they were going to Toronto because OPS has been stepping up enforcement too much here.

The crazy press conference yesterday didn’t really help the cause I think.  Still demanding to remove the government and form some sort of coalition.


but I’ll believe it when I see it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Rumours that the protest is starting to leave today.  Was posted on TikTok by one of the leaders.  Probably another fake post.  Said they were going to Toronto because OPS has been stepping up enforcement too much here.
> 
> The crazy press conference yesterday didn’t really help the cause I think.  Still demanding to remove the government and form some sort of coalition.
> 
> ...



Ya just heard this on the news.  Although I don't know about this wild and crazy press conference from yesterday.


----------



## Kilted (9 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ya just heard this on the news.  Although I don't know about this wild and crazy press conference from yesterday.


I haven't seen it on any major news source yet.  I'm sure that TPS will be ready for them.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Screen grab from the Ottawa Citizen of the Order giving the police authority to enforce.  No offence is created but their might be something in court proceedings legislation.  'Contempt' for repeated violations by the same person _might_ be applicable but I don't really know.



Thanks for posting that.

And now on the OPS website









						Enforcement of Court Order in Downtown Core
					

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, February 8, 2022        6:34pm   (Ottawa) - On February 7, 2022, Justice McLean of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice granted a temporary injunction restraining any person, who has notice of the court order, from using air horns or train horns, other than those ...




					www.ottawapolice.ca
				





> Enforcement of Court Order in Downtown Core​*FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Tuesday, February 8, 2022        6:34pm*
> 
> (Ottawa) – On February 7, 2022, Justice McLean of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice granted a temporary injunction restraining any person, who has notice of the court order, from using air horns or train horns, other than those on a motor vehicle of a municipal fire department.
> This order applies to the downtown core in the City of Ottawa which is defined as any streets north of Highway 417 (Queensway). The injunction has been granted for a period of 10 days (i.e. until end of day February 17, 2022) and will be enforced by the Ottawa Police Service and its partners effective immediately.
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343962
		


The link basically says that no one will be prosecuted for destruction of the statues on the grounds of the Manitoba Legislature. 
I was going to write a letter to various politicians but I’m dismayed and saddened by this. I am not surprised however.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6343962
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that one thing explains everything going on right now.  (not to dismiss the rez school problem)  But it highlights the division and different standards applied.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Rumours that the protest is starting to leave today.  Was posted on TikTok by one of the leaders.  Probably another fake post.  Said they were going to Toronto because OPS has been stepping up enforcement too much here.
> 
> The crazy press conference yesterday didn’t really help the cause I think.  Still demanding to remove the government and form some sort of coalition.
> 
> ...


I mean it would make sense, tactically speaking, to leave the jurisdiction of the OPS, get some gasoline, let the Court Injunction run its course, then come back.

If these protest groups are as organized as people are saying they are, it might not be out of the realm of possibility.


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> And that one thing explains everything going on right now.  (not to dismiss the rez school problem)  But it highlights the division and different standards applied.


No one is above the law. Medecino stated that two days ago. 

He was wrong.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (9 Feb 2022)

Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters

According to the BBC the OPS have called CPS on the protesters which is a incredibly low blow to make if they have. I hope all involved in that rot in a special hell reserved just for them as I have seen the amount of damage that organization can do to a family first hand.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Rolling in the big stuff.  Pissed off construction trades.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491459475643203585
It will be all over if we see some Liebherr T series show up.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters
> 
> According to the BBC the OPS have called CPS on the protesters which is a incredibly low blow to make if they have. I hope all involved in that rot in a special hell reserved just for them as I have seen the amount of damage that organization can do to a family first hand.


Dirty tactics against dirty tactics.  Bringing kids to a protest is a very strategic, deliberate and planned move.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters
> 
> According to the BBC the OPS have called CPS on the protesters which is a incredibly low blow to make if they have. I hope all involved in that rot in a special hell reserved just for them as I have seen the amount of damage that organization can do to a family first hand.


At the same time, don't get children involved.  A protest is no place for a child and putting them in that situation is no better than using Child Soldiers.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean it would make sense, tactically speaking, to leave the jurisdiction of the OPS, get some gasoline, let the Court Injunction run its course, then come back.
> 
> If these protest groups are as organized as people are saying they are, it might not be out of the realm of possibility.


I don’t think we’ll ever see trucks allowed back like that ever again.  QC showed how to deal with that after learning from Ottawa’s mistakes.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters Canada truckers: Arrests as police warn of 'volatile' protesters
> 
> According to the BBC the OPS have called CPS on the protesters which is a incredibly low blow to make if they have. I hope all involved in that rot in a special hell reserved just for them as I have seen the amount of damage that organization can do to a family first hand.


You mean the Children's Aid Society?  Perhaps living in a truck cab, being exposed to potentially dangerous sound levels and being part of civil unrest for over a week might not be a safe environment.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Not to mention the current sanitary conditions of that area.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Toronto police closing Queen's Park circle 'immediately' ahead of potential vehicle protest
					

Police say that they are closing Queen’s Park Circle in response to a number of social media posts regarding a potential demonstration involving “a large number of vehicles.”




					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2022)

Oh the irony!! And the karma.   

Trucker protest organizer slips on icy sidewalk, breaks ankle bones, criticizes Ottawa for unsafe conditions


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Oh the irony!! And the karma.
> 
> Trucker protest organizer slips on icy sidewalk, breaks ankle bones, criticizes Ottawa for unsafe conditions


Laughing at someone else's misfortune isn't a great quality either, just saying.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (9 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You mean the Children's Aid Society?  Perhaps living in a truck cab, being exposed to potentially dangerous sound levels and being part of civil unrest for over a week might not be a safe environment.


The horror. Not where I would take a child if I had one, but by all accounts it is a peaceful protest, nothing like the ones where statues are ripped down, riots, etc, well people with their children watch or have them join in. There is a clear double standard in effect here.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The horror. Not where I would take a child if I had one, but by all accounts it is a peaceful protest, nothing like the ones where statues are ripped down, riots, etc, well people with their children watch or have them join in. There is a clear double standard in effect here.


Plenty of double standard accusations going around.  Day 12 here for these guys.  BLM types in 2020 were cleared out and all arrested on day 3.

Peaceful does not always mean safe btw.


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Oh the irony!! And the karma.
> 
> Trucker protest organizer slips on icy sidewalk, breaks ankle bones, criticizes Ottawa for unsafe conditions





			https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/trucker-protest-organizer-slips-on-icy-sidewalk-breaks-ankle-bones-criticizes-ottawa-for-unsafe-conditions
		


That article seems to have disappeared


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That article seems to have disappeared



Yeah.  Supposedly, Benjamin Dichter was in a car crash.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/trucker-protest-organizer-slips-on-icy-sidewalk-breaks-ankle-bones-criticizes-ottawa-for-unsafe-conditions
> 
> 
> 
> That article seems to have disappeared


So that story isn’t verified.  I saw something earlier in the Vancouver sun but was removed.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

earlier this morning I searched a few places and only Reddit, and some Twitter stuff.  Nothing verified so I figured is was bunk.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> earlier this morning I searched a few places and only Reddit, and some Twitter stuff.  Nothing verified so I figured is was bunk.


Quite possible.  But it was MSM, probably "fake news".


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Quite possible.  But it was MSM, probably "fake news".


At least they removed it.  Most fake news would just double down lol.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Laughing at someone else's misfortune isn't a great quality either, just saying.



No, I guess it isn't but neither is proposing to hang someone or wishing they get terminal cancer.


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Feb 2022)

> Laughing at someone else's misfortune isn't a great quality either, just saying.



Fucking sickening, all the misery porn these days.  Someone gets sick and perhaps dies and, if they were on the wrong side of vaccine policy, becomes a headline which amounts to "Ha ha, look who got what he deserved".


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> No, I guess it isn't but neither is proposing to hang someone or wishing they get terminal cancer.


Yep and two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Fucking sickening, all the misery porn these days.  Someone gets sick and perhaps dies and, if they were on the wrong side of vaccine policy, becomes a headline which amounts to "Ha ha, look who got what he deserved".


Some people here were quite pleased to see Trudeau get COVID.  And wishing him the worst effects of it….didn’t see a lot of outrage from some quarters now outraged at a fake event that didn’t happen.

Anyways,  here is the irony of the original now debunked story that makes it funny.  (The story looks like it was twisted to look like something else).

It isn’t that he broke his ankle.  It’s that the claim was that he was complaining to the city about uncleared sidewalks that he would have presumably been blocking in the first place.

That would be karma and would be funny.    Something the Beaverton could write.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some people here were quite pleased to see Trudeau get COVID.  And wishing him the worst effects of it….didn’t see a lot of outrage from some quarters now outraged at a fake event that didn’t happen.
> 
> Anyways,  here is the irony of the original now debunked story that makes it funny.  (The story looks like it was twisted to look like something else).
> 
> ...


Yah and those people are being equally idiotic for that particular view.


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yah and those people are being equally idiotic for that particular view.



Don't get in the way of some ones "but he did it first" cry lol   That's a time honored and god given right on Army.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some people here were quite pleased to see Trudeau get COVID.  And wishing him the worst effects of it….didn’t see a lot of outrage from some quarters now outraged at a fake event that didn’t happen.


I must have missed those posts......


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Don't get in the way of some ones "but he did it first" cry lol   That's a time honored and god given right on Army.ca


Everyone and their victim complexes LOL.  What I find most entertaining about this entire event is watching a bunch of grown adults have temper tantrums like 5 year olds.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I must have missed those posts......


Too bad.  They were pretty crappy examples of that sort of thing.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

There’s 


Humphrey Bogart said:


> Everyone and their victim complexes LOL.  What I find most entertaining about this entire event is watching a bunch of grown adults have temper tantrums like 5 year olds.


been a 12 day tantrum happening downtown.  And the comparisons they use to describe themselves would normally be entertaining if they weren’t so disturbing.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Too bad.  They were pretty crappy examples of that sort of thing.


Oh,...i was hoping you could help me out and find them, I obviously missed them.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Oh,...i was hoping you could help me out and find them, I obviously missed them.


Would you like it in PM or here.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Feb 2022)

If was in the open once then here is fine again....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Would you like it in PM or here.


We actually have a button 😎


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> We actually have a button 😎
> 
> .
> .
> ...


Then no need for my help.


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Feb 2022)

> Some people here were quite pleased to see Trudeau get COVID.



And that was wrong too.  What's your point?  That I shouldn't be annoyed by the steady accumulation of such things?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Then no need for my help.


You click it and we decide if it warrants our attention.  I personally deleted a couple of Memes featuring our PM yesterday in this very thread.


If you don't report it we may not see it because..... well I do have a life sometimes LOL


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Feb 2022)

> the original now debunked story



Shame the OP didn't do some kind of quick "fact check".  There is a handful of people here who do it all the time who could've provided some assistance if needed.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You click it and we decide if it warrants our attention.  I personally deleted a couple of Memes featuring our PM yesterday in this very thread.
> 
> 
> If you don't report it we may not see it because..... well I do have a life sometimes LOL


Meh.  I never report anything. Never really see the need.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Shame the OP didn't do some kind of quick "fact check".  There is a handful of people here who do it all the time who could've provided some assistance if needed.


Fact checking on the site gets a bad rap quite a bit sometimes.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> It will be all over if we see some Liebherr T series show up.


Liebherr?

I barely knew her.


Seriously though, that’s some serious rolling stock and loads!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Meh.  I never report anything. Never really see the need.


Then you can understand why the moderators may not catch everything.  If you don't report it, we definitely can't do anything about it.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Then you can understand why the moderators may not catch everything.  If you don't report it, we definitely can't do anything about it.


I wasn’t commenting on the moderators work.  I meant in general.  We have outrage about a comment about the irony of a broken ankle resulting from an uncleared sidewalk being blocked by protesters but a comment about wishing the worst effects of COVID on someone does not, 

No need to report.  At the time I took it as the normal TDS some people have.  No more than those cheerleading Trump when he got it.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Liebherr?
> 
> I barely knew her.
> 
> ...


And they came from the Calgary area so there is some motivation.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Number 2!  Second Liberal breaks ranks. And removed from the Defense Committee too.









						Quebec Liberal MP Robillard also breaks ranks, questions Trudeau government’s handling of pandemic, sides with Lightbound
					

Three-term Quebec Liberal MP Yves Robillard says he wants Chief Government Whip Steven MacKinnon to apologize to him for dropping him from the House National Defence Committee and sending an email to all Liberal MPs about it.




					www.hilltimes.com


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Number 2!  Second Liberal breaks ranks. And removed from the Defense Committee too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is more than just breaking ranks.  The comments yesterday went beyond just “I disagree with mandates.” It was a full criticism of the tone the party has taken.  Some cracks in the red wall.


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Number 2!  Second Liberal breaks ranks. And removed from the Defense Committee too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I wasn’t commenting on the moderators work.  I meant in general.  We have outrage about a comment about the irony of a broken ankle resulting from an uncleared sidewalk being blocked by protesters but a comment about wishing the worst effects of COVID on someone does not,
> 
> No need to report.  At the time I took it as the normal TDS some people have.  No more than those cheerleading Trump when he got it.



To it was funny.  The OP tripped over their own who-ha trying to play the gotcha game.  That pie looks especially good on them.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To it was funny.  The OP tripped over their own who-ha trying to play the gotcha game.  That pie looks especially good on them.


Happens.  But unlike others, when called on it he didn’t double down, rant about free speech and question why he was being fact checked.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2022)

To anyone who actually gives a f*ck, I knew the article was missing when I posted, hence the link to Reddit.

Fake news?  Maybe, I just thought the irony was amusing (and the Reddit responses were funny).  Nothing more than that.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> . . .  I knew the article was missing when I posted, hence the link to Reddit.



Then you were trolling.  Sorry, you shit the bed on that one.  Own up, apologize, move on.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Then you were trolling.  Sorry, you shit the bed on that one.  Own up, apologize, move on.


That is a No Bueno


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2022)

My bad.  I didn't realize that was considered trolling.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Watching the news.  Looks like OPS just rolled into the red zone and confiscated most of the jerry cans.  Some people now not too thrilled.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Watching the news.  Looks like OPS just rolled into the red zone and confiscated most of the jerry cans.  Some people now not too thrilled.


That the fight is about jerry cans.....does that not show the fight is lost?


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


>



Meanwhile, in the PM's residence


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> That the fight is about jerry cans.....does that not show the fight is lost?


No clue.  The protest is pretty resilient but OPS is increasing enforcement.  The protesters haven’t lost yet.  If they move on then maybe but there is always next time. 

This fight is not even about mandates anymore and will outlast this current skirmish.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Plenty of double standard accusations going around.  Day 12 here for these guys.  BLM types in 2020 were cleared out and all arrested on day 3.
> 
> Peaceful does not always mean safe btw.


Homeless encampments set up illegally doe months at a time and it take a couple of injunction before they can be removed.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> No clue.  The protest is pretty resilient but OPS is increasing enforcement.  The protesters haven’t lost yet.  If they move on then maybe but there is always next time.
> 
> This fight is not even about mandates anymore and will outlast this current skirmish.


I was mostly meaning the government has lost or starting to lose.  Jerry Cans....its on the level of the playground. Oh I understand cut their supplies etc. but really its 2022.  Police "we have your jerry cans nay nay!"  Really! Truckers "we can Meme the shit out of this."  Remember it is 2022 the meme is very powerful.  Like jokes in the old Soviet union.  Even as the media spins the narrative....the memes are slowly undercutting it.  Why do you think the socials are working overtime to control the memes?  Don't tell me they are not.  There is large leakage but they are working it.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I was mostly meaning the government has lost or starting to lose.  Jerry Cans....its on the level of the playground. Oh I understand cut their supplies etc. but really its 2022.  Police "we have your jerry cans nay nay!"  Really! Truckers "we can Meme the shit out of this."  Remember it is 2022 the meme is very powerful.  Like jokes in the old Soviet union.  Even as the media spins the narrative....the memes are slowly undercutting it.  Why do you think the socials are working overtime to control the memes?  Don't tell me they are not.  There is large leakage but they are working it.



IMHO it's actually a pretty good way to gradually ratchet up the pressure without being too intrusive, or having to slam in a full cordon, with the message being: 'Go home now, while you still are able to leave ....'


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> IMHO it's actually a pretty good way to gradually ratchet up the pressure without being too intrusive, or having to slam in a full cordon, with the message being: 'Go home now, while you still are able to leave ....'


I get that.  First the core people don't care.  But I'm saying its a new world.  This will not be won by regular crowd and protest control.  Most of the battle is being fought in places like this and socials.  That the international media is reporting is a game changer.  The longer they are there it makes the government look weak. 

Did you see the PM's eyes in question period? Just as an aside my psychiatric nurse wife said he does not look well. As in he could use some time here. At the hospital.  

This is not a regular protest.  This is an everyday working man, with some middle class upraising.   Support is larger than that which is being broadcasted.  That support also can evaporate too.  But the international attention is huge.  I don't think there has ever been an Canadian political event with more coverage.  As I have said the Ambassador bridge is huge.  It will start hit US companies pocket books.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Watching the news.  Looks like OPS just rolled into the red zone and confiscated most of the jerry cans.  Some people now not too thrilled.


I'll bet the gas can shelves in Ottawa-area hardware stores look like the snow shovel aisle when they forecast a snowpocalypse or the TP aisle at the start of Covid.  Wonder if I can make some money here - I have five or six.


----------



## QV (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I get that.  First the core people don't care.  But I'm saying its a new world.  This will not be won by regular crowd and protest control.  Most of the battle is being fought in places like this and socials.  That the international media is reporting is a game changer.  The longer they are there it makes the government look weak.
> 
> Did you see the PM's eyes in question period? Just as an aside my psychiatric nurse wife said he does not look well. As in he could use some time here. At the hospital.
> 
> This is not a regular protest.  This is an everyday working man, with some middle class upraising.   Support is larger than that which is being broadcasted.  That support also can evaporate too.  But the international attention is huge.  I don't think there has ever been an Canadian political event with more coverage.  As I have said the Ambassador bridge is huge.  It will start hit US companies pocket books.


Just a small fringe minority of racists.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Just a small fringe minority of racists.


The ones leading it yes.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The horror. Not where I would take a child if I had one, but by all accounts it is a peaceful protest, nothing like the ones where statues are ripped down, riots, etc, well people with their children watch or have them join in. There is a clear double standard in effect here.


Largely non-violent, it seems yes.  "Peaceful"?  Anecdotal accounts and an injunction suggest otherwise.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Feb 2022)

Since the organgrinders included meeting with the Governor General as part of their demands, let's see what she's up to.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491527447602421765
“As Whit and I are experiencing first-hand, *we are not out of this pandemic yet*, but we have made tremendous progress. We are both grateful for all those making a difference in our fight against this virus.”

Not really a sentiment that would resonate with the protesters.


----------



## Furniture (9 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Since the organgrinders included meeting with the Governor General as part of their demands, let's see what she's up to.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491527447602421765
> ...


I hope she makes a speedy recovery. 

Honestly though, can/should the GG post anything that doesn't follow the official narrative from the government?


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> This is more than just breaking ranks.  The comments yesterday went beyond just “I disagree with mandates.” It was a full criticism of the tone the party has taken.  Some cracks in the red wall.


I think that's pretty noble and brave of the Liberal MP (and the same goes for Conservative MPs that speak against the party).

Our system is seriously flawed. MPs shouldn't be penalized, punished, or punted for speaking against their parties. The people voted them in, not the party. The way we punish politicians for speaking against the party shows us that political parties believe themselves beholden to their party and not the people.


----------



## Remius (9 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I hope she makes a speedy recovery.
> 
> Honestly though, can/should the GG post anything that doesn't follow the official narrative from the government?


The previous one said a whole bunch of interesting things…


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Did you see the PM's eyes in question period? Just as an aside my psychiatric nurse wife said he does not look well. As in he could use some time here. At the hospital.


So is he suffering some kind of nervous breakdown as we used to call it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2022)

Is that CAF going overboard?

A member of Joint Task Force 2 is apparetly being investigated for putting up banners outside his home in Ottawa (you'll have to search it for yourself). 

The banner says “Truckers for Freedom” and “Mandate Freedom.”


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is that CAF going overboard?
> 
> A member of Joint Task Force 2 is apparetly being investigated for putting up banners outside his home in Ottawa (you'll have to search it for yourself).
> 
> The banner says “Truckers for Freedom” and “Mandate Freedom.”


Investigated?  That's a crime now?


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> So is he suffering some kind of nervous breakdown as we used to call it.


Well nurses don't diagnose but that said wink wink the answer could very much be yes.

Ok he is the leader of the country so big stress, in a tough time. Plus he is being challenged in a way not seen before in this country.

Now my thoughts are he is narcissistic. He has lead a "easy" life to this point.  Put in a leadership position from the start because of family. 

During is time as leader of liberal much of the old "wisemen" of the party have be put aside.  He has come down on his caucus hard to tow the line.  The opposition parties have been weak also.  

This is the first major crisis that has really tested his leadership.  The convoy being a working class uprising. He is being press from many sides.  Plus a new side to this is the international pressure.  It has starting to be reported on international media that if Canada gives in to removing the mandates other countries will have the same type of actions. NZ  Australia and even Biden.  I will bet you calls have been fielded from other nations.

So that all leading to stress he has not come under before.  

In all honesty anyone would have a hard time.  Trudeau be who he is has got to be a level worse.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Investigated?  That's a crime now?


It's double plus ungood


----------



## QV (9 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The ones leading it yes.


Stated without any evidence.


----------



## QV (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Well nurses don't diagnose but that said wink wink the answer could very much be yes.
> 
> Ok he is the leader of the country so big stress, in a tough time. Plus he is being challenged in a way not seen before in this country.
> 
> ...


He’s having a hard time now because of the seriously flawed way he’s handled just about everything. And it’s all coming home.


----------



## blacktriangle (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Well nurses don't diagnose but that said wink wink the answer could very much be yes.
> 
> Ok he is the leader of the country so big stress, in a tough time. Plus he is being challenged in a way not seen before in this country.
> 
> ...


Forgive me if I don't shed any tears. That would be asking more than I can give right now.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Feb 2022)

Some reports that GM will have to shut down if the blockades are not lifted by the weekend.


----------



## blacktriangle (9 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Investigated?  That's a crime now?


Anything can be a crime during a purge.


----------



## MilEME09 (9 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Investigated?  That's a crime now?


Depends if he is publicly identifiable as a CAF member. Since the QORs do state we can not express political opinions, or criticize the GoC.


----------



## Furniture (9 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Depends if he is publicly identifiable as a CAF member. Since the QORs do state we can not express political opinions, or criticize the GoC.


How would your home make you publicly identifiable as a CAF member? Are there house sized dog tags I can strategically leave hanging out like a recruit out on the town in St. Jean?


----------



## MilEME09 (9 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> How would your home make you publicly identifiable as a CAF member? Are there house sized dog tags I can strategically leave hanging out like a recruit out on the town in St. Jean?


If he posted the picture to social media , and his profile photo showed him in uniform, that would be one way.


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Some reports that GM will have to shut down if the blockades are not lifted by the weekend.


WAP (windsor) is closed, CAMI (GM Ingersoll) is down.  Oshawa Assembly will be down soon,  Honda and Toyota so maybe tomorrow or Friday. Ford Oakville will be soon but I don't have timing yet. GM Powertrain St.Catherines sometime next week.  Transmission first as CAMI will not require. Gen V engines I will know tomorrow.

Service Parts operations (Ford and GM these are the only ones I have visiblilty on) were having supply chain logistics before all this.  It just getting worse.  Hundreds of trailers of parts in Windsor parked.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> If he posted the picture to social media , and his profile photo showed him in uniform, that would be one way.


Sounds like other members of the CAF didn't like it and reported him.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sounds like other members of the CAF didn't like it and reported him.



Is this story making the rounds solely as scuttlebutt or has it reached the media - main stream, social, or gossipnet?  Not knowing any secret squirrel handshakes, I can only speculate that drawing attention to oneself is frowned upon by those in that line of work.  Putting a big fecking banner on one's house does draw attention and sure to piss off colleagues who toe the line.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> WAP (windsor) is closed, CAMI (GM Ingersoll) is down.  Oshawa Assembly will be down soon,  Honda and Toyota so maybe tomorrow or Friday. Ford Oakville will be soon but I don't have timing yet. GM Powertrain St.Catherines sometime next week.  Transmission first as CAMI will not require. Gen V engines I will know tomorrow.
> 
> Service Parts operations (Ford and GM these are the only ones I have visiblilty on) were having supply chain logistics before all this.  It just getting worse.  Hundreds of trailers of parts in Windsor parked.


Yea but those damn corporations.....at least it won't effect normal working people.  Because this is all about them, right??


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sounds like other members of the CAF didn't like it and reported him.



It's not my sign it's my wife's, I just live here


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Is this story making the rounds solely as scuttlebutt or has it reached the media - main stream, social, or gossipnet?  Not knowing any secret squirrel handshakes, I can only speculate that drawing attention to oneself is frowned upon by those in that line of work.  Putting a big fecking banner on one's house does draw attention and sure to piss off colleagues who toe the line.


It's currently in the Ottawa Citizen.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> WAP (windsor) is closed, CAMI (GM Ingersoll) is down.  Oshawa Assembly will be down soon,  Honda and Toyota so maybe tomorrow or Friday. Ford Oakville will be soon but I don't have timing yet. GM Powertrain St.Catherines sometime next week.  Transmission first as CAMI will not require. Gen V engines I will know tomorrow.
> 
> Service Parts operations (Ford and GM these are the only ones I have visiblilty on) were having supply chain logistics before all this.  It just getting worse.  Hundreds of trailers of parts in Windsor parked.


One wonders, when the dust settles, if some industries might re-think their just-in-time business model and go back to actually have warehouses.  Just-in-time has essentially foisted their supply management onto the highway system.

There was also an article a day or so ago about some companies not being happy seeing their logos on trucks in the protest (one was actually a company truck taken to the protest by an employee without permission).  If you have long term contracts with fleet operators or owner-operators, it's not unusual for the tractors to bear your name.  There might be some re-thinking of that too.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Feb 2022)

Who's false flagging _now_?  This from the lawyer heading up the class action suit against the protest

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491591078985695233


----------



## Furniture (9 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> It's currently in the Ottawa Citizen.


I don't see how a person's private home is the concern of the CAF.

Being CANSOFCOM I doubt they travel to and from work in uniform, so 99% of people passing would likely never know the home owner was a CAF member.

Seems like a case of like busybodies improving morale...


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Feb 2022)

#GarageBandName


Furniture said:


> ... busybodies improving morale...


----------



## mariomike (9 Feb 2022)

Same as McG post #1817  below. So,I removed mine.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> It's currently in the Ottawa Citizen.


----------



## McG (9 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491531660898279424


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Dispatch from the Ottawa Front: Sloly is telling you all he's in trouble. Who's listening?
					

The scale of Ottawa's defeat is a jarring and continuing indictment of the capacity of the Canadian state, and the state must reverse this situation, decisively.




					theline.substack.com
				




This was a bit eye opening.  Food for thought.  I may rethink my position on Sloly after reading that,


----------



## Czech_pivo (10 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491531660898279424


Its the truckers who are not vaccinated saying F8(k u to those truckers who are vaccinated.  
Plus, being Windsor (and having lived the first 23yrs of my life there), I'm sure that there are a few Marxist Leninist party members out there protesting. The ML's are still a fringe party out there and still create mischief from time to time.


----------



## YZT580 (10 Feb 2022)

adds distance and time but the crossing at Niagara, Fort Erie and Sarnia are wide open for business.  Why pray tell bunch up at Windsor.  They could also load the trailers onto a train and cross that way.  It is not an insurmountable barrier


----------



## FSTO (10 Feb 2022)

YZT580 said:


> adds distance and time but the crossing at Niagara, Fort Erie and Sarnia are wide open for business.  Why pray tell bunch up at Windsor.  They could also load the trailers onto a train and cross that way.  It is not an insurmountable barrier


Nobody in positions of power seem to be agile enough to come up with several COA's to deal with the issues of the blockades. Matt Gurney and Jen Gerson of The Line have been banging on this drum that our institutions can't seem to do anything competently and that the pandemic has exposed the Potemkin Village that seems to be our institutions these days.


----------



## RangerRay (10 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Nobody in positions of power seem to be agile enough to come up with several COA's to deal with the issues of the blockades. Matt Gurney and Jen Gerson of The Line have been banging on this drum that our institutions can't seem to do anything competently and that the pandemic has exposed the Potemkin Village that seems to be our institutions these days.


I believe the term they use is “lack of state capacity” to deal with emergencies, including the unprecedented wildfires and floods in British Columbia. Our governments are good at shovelling money out the door, but if resources are needed to, you know, deal with the emergency, you’re on your own.


----------



## lenaitch (10 Feb 2022)

YZT580 said:


> adds distance and time but the crossing at Niagara, Fort Erie and Sarnia are wide open for business.  Why pray tell bunch up at Windsor.  They could also load the trailers onto a train and cross that way.  It is not an insurmountable barrier


I don't know if there is much roadrailer (semi-trailers on rail cars) equipment around.  It's not really that popular anymore and your need facilities at both ends and drivers/tractors to take them away.  Containerized loads are somewhat more flexible but you still need facilities that have capacity - I am only assuming there are intermodal yards nearby - plus the need for tractors/drivers.


----------



## Journeyman (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Ok he is the leader of the country so big stress, in a tough time. Plus he is being challenged in a way not seen before in this country.


If only we had a PM like NZ's Jacinda Ardern.  She had to deal with COVID, a terrorist attack, and an earthquake -- and a 1-year old -- without running off into hiding.

Hell, I'm even starting to have some respect for the elder Trudeau  #WordsI'veNeverSaid


----------



## lenaitch (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Dispatch from the Ottawa Front: Sloly is telling you all he's in trouble. Who's listening?
> 
> 
> The scale of Ottawa's defeat is a jarring and continuing indictment of the capacity of the Canadian state, and the state must reverse this situation, decisively.
> ...


Yes, the 'protest within a protest' was a bit of an eye-opener. If the Chief agreed to the second encampment, then he wears it, but if the city/NCC agreed to it on their own, or dismissed his objections, it's on them.  If it were me, I'd cordon the second one and starve them out, but I suppose that's why I never made it that high up the food chain.

The trend of late has been to emphasize 'soft' traits such as partnerships, sensitivity, inclusion, listening, etc. in police leadership.  They don't get you far when the poo hits the fan.   I can only assume they looked on the impending convoy like just about every other protest that has descended on the city over the years vowing to shut it down, only to not.  They would be wrong.  We like to think ourselves as the peaceable kingdom, lacking the a critical mass of the hard, ideological disruptive elements we see in other countries.  We would be wrong.  Just about every disruptive protest starts out as a peaceful assembly, either in fact or pretense, until it either devolves or is highjacked.  For the police to be proactive yet still live within the Constitution is a problem faced by just about every democracy.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It's not my sign it's my wife's, I just live here


It does raise an interesting point, if a CF member is living off base and their non-CF spouse engages in a protest in such a way that the CF gets entangled because of social media, can the CF really do anything?


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> It does raise an interesting point, if a CF member is living off base and their non-CF spouse engages in a protest in such a way that the CF gets entangled because of social media, can the CF really do anything?



I cant see how the CAF can have any say about what my wife puts on our front yard or on her social media.


----------



## FSTO (10 Feb 2022)

Another thing about the convoy, Paul Wells and Jesse Brown had a chat on Canadaland about the echo chambers they, us (CAF), the protesters, lefties, righties, etc are cocooned in and how it has tainted all levels of government and police response to the crisis.









						#753 Wrong 2: Wrong Harder
					

Angry, bias-confirming echo chambers seem evident this week when it comes to the Freedom Convoy. And "a Toronto star at the Toronto Star" dies this week and Jesse dares to speak ill - or at least some truth - about the dead. Maclean's senior writer Paul Wells co-hosts.




					www.canadaland.com
				




I'm sure that the Federal Gov and their PS advisors were totally dismissive of the convoy when it left BC and headed east. As they sat around the cabinet table (no pesky backbenchers allowed) and gave it the 5 min they thought it needed they likely assumed that north of Lake Superior would see the convoy fizzle out. They have no idea the anger and frustration that is out there since there is not one person on Cabinet who would know a trades person, or farmer, or a worker at Tim Horton's. 
Now that 2 members of the Liberal caucus have voiced their frustration maybe there will be some realization that not everything is well in Canada and this government needs to show some competence in governing.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I believe the term they use is “lack of state capacity” to deal with emergencies, including the unprecedented wildfires and floods in British Columbia. Our governments are good at shovelling money out the door, but if resources are needed to, you know, deal with the emergency, you’re on your own.


Contingency planning is not their strength


----------



## mariomike (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Dispatch from the Ottawa Front: Sloly is telling you all he's in trouble. Who's listening?
> 
> 
> The scale of Ottawa's defeat is a jarring and continuing indictment of the capacity of the Canadian state, and the state must reverse this situation, decisively.
> ...


This was also a bit eye opening,



> Many others, profane or not, are demanding Trudeau come speak to them, or at least reveal where he’s hiding out. (That would be a bad idea. I don’t think he should do that.)


----------



## QV (10 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I believe the term they use is “lack of state capacity” to deal with emergencies, including the unprecedented wildfires and floods in British Columbia. Our governments are good at shovelling money out the door, but if resources are needed to, you know, deal with the emergency, you’re on your own.


Those fires and floods in BC were all precedented actually.


----------



## QV (10 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I don't see how a person's private home is the concern of the CAF.
> 
> Being CANSOFCOM I doubt they travel to and from work in uniform, so 99% of people passing would likely never know the home owner was a CAF member.
> 
> Seems like a case of like busybodies improving morale...


Whoever outed the CANSOFCOM member and their residence, for any reason, likely committed a security breach.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Whoever outed the CANSOFCOM member and their residence, for any reason, likely committed a security breach.


Security breaches don’t seem to be a big concern for some.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491799132138197004
So now she wants it to end.  I guess she may have read Matt Gurney’s article or got a an actual real security brief on what is really behind this as leader of the “loyal” opposition.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

Decades of activists (all kinds) writing and bragging openly about how to get up the noses of authorities; wishful denial that culture and information flows across borders; incessant pressure on wrong-thinkers to shut up and go away, and maybe to lose their jobs if they are prominent.  Stir well and wait; see what boils over.


----------



## Harris (10 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Whoever outed the CANSOFCOM member and their residence, for any reason, likely committed a security breach.


If that is what happened.  I used to live near "that place" and had many as neighbours.  It was not at all hard to tell who was who.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Follow the money…









						American donors to trucker convoy may be outnumbering Canadians: CTV News analysis
					

A fundraising effort for the trucker convoy occupying Ottawa streets and making demands of the Canadian government has hit more than US$8 million, with an analysis by CTV News showing that donations appear to be pouring in from south of the border.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Blackadder1916 (10 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> It does raise an interesting point, if a CF member is living off base and their non-CF spouse engages in a protest in such a way that the CF gets entangled because of social media, can the CF really do anything?





Halifax Tar said:


> I cant see how the CAF can have any say about what my wife puts on our front yard or on her social media.



Not that this incident rises to the point (yet?) where administrative or disciplinary action would be necessary, but I can recall a few incidents during my time when the actions of a family member were visited on a member.  What immediately comes to mind is the description of release item 5f.



> who, either wholly or chiefly because of the conditions of military life or other factors beyond his control, develops personal weaknesses or *has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden* on the Canadian Forces.



That may be the extreme, but I was aware of a couple of cases (decades ago) when the behaviour of a spouse (in one of the cases, it was a service couple) resulted in the member having his security clearance withdrawn.  One of them dumped the spouse and worked hard to salvage his career; the other kept the spouse and was released.  Of course, I do acknowledge that the machine has become more family friendly since I was a young soldier.


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Not that this incident rises to the point (yet?) where administrative or disciplinary action would be necessary, but I can recall a few incidents during my time when the actions of a family member were visited on a member.  What immediately comes to mind is the description of release item 5f.
> 
> 
> 
> That may be the extreme, but I was aware of a couple of cases (decades ago) when the behaviour of a spouse (in one of the cases, it was a service couple) resulted in the member having his security clearance withdrawn.  One of them dumped the spouse and worked hard to salvage his career; the other kept the spouse and was released.  Of course, I do acknowledge that the machine has become more family friendly since I was a young soldier.



Is a spouses political position a personal problem for the member  ?  

I mean so long as I continue to show up for work and do as ordered, I can't see how that works. 

Nevertheless it would interesting so on trial. 

@FJAG what say you ?


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

FYI y’all Emerson border crossing in Manitoba is pretty much shut down. Link



			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6346264


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is a spouses political position a personal problem for the member  ?
> 
> I mean so long as I continue to show up for work and do as ordered, I can't see how that works.
> 
> ...


it Could it have an impact on one’s ability to get a security clearance I would think.  Although in this case that would still be a thin issue.  I can’t see political positions or opinions being a real issue.  Maybe there is more to this story that we aren’t seeing?   Has the member made declarations at work that might worry his colleagues? Other social media posts?  

Based on just having signs?  I would doubt any of this has any legs.


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> it Could it have an impact on one’s ability to get a security clearance I would think.  Although in this case that would still be a thin issue.  I can’t see political positions or opinions being a real issue.  Maybe there is more to this story that we aren’t seeing?   Has the member made declarations at work that might worry his colleagues? Other social media posts?
> 
> Based on just having signs?  I would doubt any of this has any legs.



Agreed.  I mean if my spouse suddenly put up a huge communist flag on the yard along with other signage I could see how that might strain a SC. 

Also a spouse in a bike gang may be problematic... 

It would be interesting to see on trial.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

I knew a few soldiers in the 70s who lost their clearances because a high school friend expressed Communist views.


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is a spouses political position a personal problem for the member  ?
> 
> I mean so long as I continue to show up for work and do as ordered, I can't see how that works.
> 
> ...


It's clearly not a disciplinary matter but it could certainly become an administrative action matter.

There's more to the military than showing up for work and doing as ordered.



OldSolduer said:


> I knew a few soldiers in the 70s who lost their clearances because a high school friend expressed Communist views.


It took me two years to get my Secret clearance because I had family living in East Berlin back in the day.

🍻


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> It's clearly not a disciplinary matter but it could certainly become an administrative action matter.
> 
> There's more to the military than showing up for work and doing as ordered.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your input.  Clearly there is more; but would it not have to be proven to be affecting or interfering in your performance at work ?


----------



## Scott (10 Feb 2022)

CPC's weekly polling must have shown they're fuckin doomed if they continue to support the likes of Pat King. Who woulda thunk it?


----------



## Haggis (10 Feb 2022)

Family attachments and their activities can definitely impact your security clearance.


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I appreciate your input.  Clearly there is more; but would it not have to be proven to be affecting or interfering in your performance at work ?


Certainly but there's a lot more flexibility and room for interpretation in admin matters than in disciplinary/criminal law.

In any corporate structure, whether military or civilian, there is always a balancing of what is good or bad for the individual and what is good or bad for the corporate entity. People on opposite sides of the issue tend not to see the dividing line in the same place.

🍻


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> Certainly but there's a lot more flexibility and room for interpretation in admin matters than in disciplinary/criminal law.
> 
> In any corporate structure, whether military or civilian, there is always a balancing of what is good or bad for the individual and what is good or bad for the corporate entity. People on opposite sides of the issue tend not to see the dividing line in the same place.
> 
> 🍻



Merci beaucoup!  Sounds like a good episode for a TV show lol


----------



## lenaitch (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Contingency planning is not their strength


If it's anything like Ontario (and I'm sure we are not alone) there might be a plan in a binder on a shelf somewhere, but no money to exercise it or stockpile assets to accommodate it.  The PPE situation during early Covid is an example.  After SARS, they established a stockpile, then lost interest and it all timed out or was used up in day-to-day use.


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Merci beaucoup!  Sounds like a good episode for a TV show lol


Nah. I think "The Office" has already covered them all.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> CPC's weekly polling must have shown they're fuckin doomed if they continue to support the likes of Pat King. Who woulda thunk it?


20 hours ago Pierre Polievre said “Keep going”.  I’ll be curious to see what his next tweet says.


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> Nah. I think "The Office" has already covered them all.


And/or the Dilbert series ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I don't know if there is much roadrailer (semi-trailers on rail cars) equipment around.  It's not really that popular anymore and your need facilities at both ends and drivers/tractors to take them away.  Containerized loads are somewhat more flexible but you still need facilities that have capacity - I am only assuming there are intermodal yards nearby - plus the need for tractors/drivers.


Unfortunately this isn't how Railroad Companies operate anymore.  CP and CN have closed a lot of their yards and switched to a system called Precision Scheduled Railroading.









						Precision railroading - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Freight Trains run on fixed schedules now like Passenger Trains and time switching between yards is minimized.  It's up to the customer to find the train that best suits their needs.

This is so the Freight Train Companies maximize their profits and value for shareholders.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Feb 2022)

and unless you need 20+ cars, they don't want to hear from you. I know several horror stories from small businesses that made the mistake of using the railroads to ship their goods.


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Feb 2022)

OPS busy ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491788988654383115


----------



## FSTO (10 Feb 2022)

I really really hope that serious people in Canada are watching all of this and taking notes on how this all went down. It just goes to show how little it takes to paralyze our institutions into inaction. 

We really need to take a hard look at how Canada operates. Our comfort blankets of US hegemony and distance from trouble spots are shown to be pretty threadbare.


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

Takes me back to internal security training and the basic concept that if a small group of people can get together and paralyze a government institution or activity with impunity one quickly loses control of the underlying principle of a peaceful democracy and ends up in an area where minority protests become ever more diverse, frequent, violent and disruptive. You can never let the mob think that by banding together that they are immune.

IMHO the US is doing it right with the Jan 6 prosecutions and awarding appropriate penalties where warranted. That needs to be coupled with more aggressive policing during such protests to set limits and boundaries. And before anyone asks, yes, I believe that applies to any and all such protests, demonstrations, barricades etc which interrupt or impede the continuous and peaceful activities of our citizens and commerce.

🍻


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> Takes me back to internal security training and the basic concept that if a small group of people can get together and paralyze a government institution or activity with impunity one quickly loses control of the underlying principle of a peaceful democracy and ends up in an area where minority protests become ever more diverse, frequent, violent and disruptive. You can never let the mob think that by banding together that they are immune.
> 
> IMHO the US is doing it right with the Jan 6 prosecutions and awarding appropriate penalties where warranted. That needs to be coupled with more aggressive policing during such protests to set limits and boundaries. And before anyone asks, yes, I believe that applies to any and all such protests, demonstrations, barricades etc which interrupt or impede the continuous and peaceful activities of our citizens and commerce.
> 
> 🍻



OTOH, based on their recent (lack of) performance, there's a good argument for disbanding the police forces of the Capital cities in both the US and Canada and redesigning them to be more effective at their jobs.

Just sayin' ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> OTOH, based on their recent (lack of) performance, there's a good argument for disbanding the police forces of the Capital cities in both the US and Canada and redesigning them to be more effective at their jobs.
> 
> Just sayin' ...


I think they need a few more hard asses, that don't necessarily look all that good in interviews or on the Globe & Mail test.

Of course it's all about what effect the elected officials want?  

And the big one.....

Whether they are willing to make a decision and live with the consequences of said decision.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Some people were wondering (possibly questioning) about people taking care of each other in Ottawa. 









						Ottawa homeless shelter receives $750,000 in donations after harassment from convoy protesters
					

Donations to an Ottawa homeless shelter have reached about three quarters of a million dollars after protesters from the ‘Freedom Convoy’ harassed staff and volunteers.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




Silver lining.


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> OTOH, based on their recent (lack of) performance, there's a good argument for disbanding the police forces of the Capital cities in both the US and Canada and redesigning them to be more effective at their jobs.
> 
> Just sayin' ...


Not sure about disbanding but they do need to buy a few heavy tow trucks (preferably with dozer blades).


----------



## OceanBonfire (10 Feb 2022)

An example of a collateral of this temper tantrum:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491519120025731081


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some people were wondering (possibly questioning) about people taking care of each other in Ottawa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that was MarioMike. I was saying how great Ottawa is and how much they always come together to support each other.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> An example of a collateral of this temper tantrum:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491519120025731081







			
				RCMP Manitoba said:
			
		

> A 74-year-old male was stuck in a demonstration convoy on Highway 3 last week as he was attempting to drive his 82-year-old sister, who was in dire need of medical care, to the hospital. *The convoy was “slow-rolling” on the only highway to the only hospital in the area*





			
				RCMP Manitoba said:
			
		

> This situation is completely & utterly unacceptable & it cannot be repeated. The Manitoba RCMP will continue to closely monitor these demonstrations and *will not tolerate any blocking of roads or highways that lead to hospitals.*



So which is it?


----------



## mariomike (10 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I think that was MarioMike.



Quote me. Do not put words in my mouth.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Dispatch from the Ottawa Front: Sloly is telling you all he's in trouble. Who's listening?
> 
> 
> The scale of Ottawa's defeat is a jarring and continuing indictment of the capacity of the Canadian state, and the state must reverse this situation, decisively.
> ...



That was a really good article and read thanks for posting that. I'm surprised what he was saying about a separate, non policed HQ type area set up by organized right-wing hardliners that appears fortified with vehicles and obstacles.



> But I can tell you that some of the protesters themselves are surprised by how easy it was for them to set up shop.


Interesting comment.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> And the big one.....
> 
> Whether they are willing to make a decision and live with the consequences of said decision.


Well….we ‘just watched him’…and saw ‘nary a smidgen’ of Père Pierre:


----------



## FSTO (10 Feb 2022)

So it Coutts, Emerson, Sarnia, Windsor all blockaded.  Rumours that Regway SK is next. 

The fringe minority is sure able to spread its footprint.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> So it Coutts, Emerson, Sarnia, Windsor all blockaded.  Rumours that Regway SK is next.
> 
> The fringe minority is sure able to spread its footprint.


People should start calling it what it is and stop pussy footing around the issue.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> So it Coutts, Emerson, Sarnia, Windsor all blockaded.  Rumours that Regway SK is next.
> 
> The fringe minority is sure able to spread its footprint.


Yes, maybe this fringe isn't as fringe as they said 😉

As I said earlier, 10% of the population is still 3.8 million people.  You back people in to a corner and they will do crazy things.


----------



## mariomike (10 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491531660898279424



If this is about supporting truckers, it's interesting to hear what they have to say.



> He had to take a five hour detour to get his truckload of food into Canada. He shared this message to those protesting COVID-19 mandates.


----------



## Furniture (10 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> If this is about supporting truckers, it's interesting to hear what they have to say.


I love how people keep trying to make it about something it clearly isn't about. It hasn't been about truckers since before it arrived in Ottawa, but people keep trying to play the "gotcha" game with truckers... I'm sure it will work today, despite the fact it hasn't for the last 12 days. 



Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yes, maybe this fringe isn't as fringe as they said 😉
> 
> As I said earlier, 10% of the population is still 3.8 million people.  You back people in to a corner and they will do crazy things.


That was something I noticed early on, there is what seems to be a fair portion of people in the protest that are already financially, and socially "ruined" by the mandates, so they don't really have much else to lose, and have openly stated it. 

Canada isn't used to large scale public unrest, we have been fat and happy for a long time. I'm sure the top police officers across the country are all brainstorming ways to deal with this sort of thing when it pops up in their neck of the woods.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I love how people keep trying to make it about something it clearly isn't about. It hasn't been about truckers since before it arrived in Ottawa, but people keep trying to play the "gotcha" game with truckers... I'm sure it will work today, despite the fact it hasn't for the last 12 days.
> 
> 
> That was something I noticed early on, there is what seems to be a fair portion of people in the protest that are already financially, and socially "ruined" by the mandates, so they don't really have much else to lose, and have openly stated it.
> ...


We also have one of the lowest per capita numbers of police in the World, especially in comparison yo Countries of our size.


----------



## mariomike (10 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Well the general public I interact with don't support them. In fact, the only support I see for them now is on this forum.



Be interesting to know if public support for them has changed over the last ten days, since that was posted. One way, or the other, or not at all.

Also, what effect, if any, this will have on which team wins the next election.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> So it Coutts, Emerson, Sarnia, Windsor all blockaded.  Rumours that Regway SK is next.
> 
> The fringe minority is sure able to spread its footprint.


Just wait the railways are next.  As we all know it won't take much to stop trains on their tracks.  Again the rail tunnels in Windsor and Sarnia.  Sarnia is interesting. Because if the west coast bottleneck at the ports (caused by some dumb rules and regulations put in place on trucker!) Shippers were using Canadian ports Sarnia is double high so stacked TEU's and FEU's can fit. Shut them down and more US economic pain.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

> You back people in to a corner and they will do crazy things.



A very old lesson, but the idea of the "golden bridge" is lost.  The preferred contemporary technique for dealing with people outside the allowable range of discourse is to marginalize and squeeze them wherever it seems they might still have room to escape.  Be sure to call them names frequently, so you always have an excuse to never appear to back down or compromise.  Obviously if there is still unrest, it means the fist is not squeezed tightly enough.

Another old lesson is that revolts don't always happen when rule is most strictly enforced; hints of relaxation/reform prompt further unrest.  (The more jurisdictions that relax COVID restrictions, the greater the pressure on those trying to maintain or even increase restrictions.)


----------



## lenaitch (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> Not sure about disbanding but they do need to buy a few heavy tow trucks (preferably with dozer blades).


A la Mad Max:


Or we could do like in the States where law enforcement gets surplus military equipment.  Then again, by the time the CAF is done with something I'm not sure they'd want it.

What they really need is for the chain of command, civilian oversight and politicians to back them when things go sideways, and they will.  The "they" is the individual members.  Senior command may not get their contract renewed or, even more rare, get their wrist slapped (it happened to a TPS commander after G8/G20), but it is the individual coppers who often end up in the dock.

A contested arrest, let alone a protest confrontation, is messy, and with social and traditional media, is there for all to see. Despite the training, most cops aren't ninja warriors and its not scripted like on TV.  Any action taken in the 'heat of battle' will be parsed both formally and informally.  At the macro level, law enforcement should always be aware of this, since they can lose the legitimacy of the public if it seen as too heavy handed.  Quite frankly, if they thought about it, the so-called organizers should be worried as well.  They don't really control much of what is going on, and all it takes is for some lunatic to do something really stupid and any public support they have will evaporate.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> A la Mad Max:
> 
> View attachment 68618
> Or we could do like in the States where law enforcement gets surplus military equipment.  Then again, by the time the CAF is done with something I'm not sure they'd want it.
> ...


As I said earlier, someone has to make a decision and live with the consequences.

If it's decided to forcefully evict the protesters,  officers, protesters and innocent bystanders will get hurt.


----------



## Kilted (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> As I said earlier, someone has to make a decision and live with the consequences.
> 
> If it's decided to forcefully evict the protesters,  officers, protesters and innocent bystanders will get hurt.


Given the current scale and the fact that some politicians may be starting to give in, I think that force is the lesser of two evils.  I would hate for these people to think that they accomplished something.  Just wait to see what else they may try.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

I have heard something about truckers going the airports.

 If the truckers blocked NavCanada Goose Bay would that not knockout all trans Atlantic flights?  That would that may get some real attention. 

Probably not enough people and trucks there.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> As I said earlier, someone has to make a decision and live with the consequences.
> 
> If it's decided to forcefully evict the protesters,  officers, protesters and innocent bystanders will get hurt.


You're absolutely correct. These are Canadians - lets not forget that. 
They are not Americans or Mexicans or one horned one eared flying Purple People Eaters. 
Canadians - dialogue and negotiation is the best way out. Force is the very last option.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You're absolutely correct. These are Canadians - lets not forget that.
> They are not Americans or Mexicans or one horned one eared flying Purple People Eaters.
> Canadians - dialogue and negotiation is the best way out. Force is the very last option.


I think they've gone past dialogue,.....its now time for 'Well here's how this is going to go down."


----------



## Navy_Pete (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I have heard something about truckers going the airports.
> 
> If the truckers blocked NavCanada Goose Bay would that not knockout all trans Atlantic flights?  That would that may get some real attention.
> 
> Probably not enough people and trucks there.


They were doing slow loops of the Ottawa airport here this morning, but think they eventually gave up.

Surprised there hasn't been some road rage incident at this point, people are generally running on a low simmer so if they are in a rush to get to the hospital, airport, etc etc that might be the last straw.


----------



## FSTO (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You're absolutely correct. These are Canadians - lets not forget that.
> They are not Americans or Mexicans or one horned one eared flying Purple People Eaters.
> Canadians - dialogue and negotiation is the best way out. Force is the very last option.


I follow a pretty leftish website called Skyscrapperpage.com, you'd not be shocked at how many on there want the military called in to bust some heads.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I think they've gone past dialogue,.....its now time for 'Well here's how this is going to go down."


There is still room for dialogue. A person trusted by both government and the convoys needs to start that. The sooner the better. 

If this situation festers much longer it is not going to be pretty. 


FSTO said:


> I follow a pretty leftish website called Skyscrapperpage.com, you'd not be shocked at how many on there want the military called in to bust some heads.


Yup but don't touch BLM, Antifa or those who destroy property and loot. Typical.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

The best part of any protest is when the people objecting to the protest lose patience with the protestors and the processes for removing protestors.  Makes for the best TV viewing and political ads.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> There is still room for dialogue. A person trusted by both government and the convoys needs to start that. The sooner the better.


"This is whats going to happen" IS dialogue......lets be real here, these folks get an inch and what do you suppose those other groups you mentioned start thinking?


----------



## JLB50 (10 Feb 2022)

I don’t think the government should establish any dialogue with people, such as Paul Bauder, who have openly called for bringing down a government that was elected by the people.  The fact that there are “some decent people” in the blockade doesn’t give credibility to the leaders who are extremists.  I realize that others here don’t share this view, but I consider the actions of those involved in the various blockades to be treasonous.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Ontario court freezes access to donations for truckers' protest from GiveSendGo
					

OTTAWA — The Ontario government says it has successfully petitioned a court to freeze access to millions of dollars donated through online fundraising platform GiveSendGo to the convoy protesting COVID-19 restrictions in Ottawa and at several border




					www.burnabynow.com
				




This is just breaking


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

> these folks get an inch and what do you suppose those other groups you mentioned start thinking?



Ironically, to some extent this situation arose because of all the other inches given in the past.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ontario court freezes access to donations for truckers' protest from GiveSendGo
> 
> 
> OTTAWA — The Ontario government says it has successfully petitioned a court to freeze access to millions of dollars donated through online fundraising platform GiveSendGo to the convoy protesting COVID-19 restrictions in Ottawa and at several border
> ...


Got to give it to the government they work very work to not have to talk to them.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

Next up, cash donations.


----------



## RangerRay (10 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Those fires and floods in BC were all precedented actually.


You’re right. Experts have been warning governments  of these things occurring for decades.


----------



## Gunnar (10 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Next up, cash donations.


They’re already getting them.  People are walking up and handing truckers money.  One guy yesterday said he got $250 over the day, simply for being there...


----------



## mariomike (10 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> It hasn't been about truckers since before it arrived in Ottawa, but people keep trying to play the "gotcha" game with truckers...



I do not doubt you...



Remius said:


> Hate is what is driving this in the first place.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> I don’t think the government should establish any dialogue with people, such as Paul Bauder, who have openly called for bringing down a government that was elected by the people.


They've established dialogue with worse people.
In October 2021 Canadian officials met with the Taliban to discuss humanitarian aid. 
Link


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> They've established dialogue with worse people.
> In October 2021 Canadian officials met with the Taliban to discuss humanitarian aid.
> Link


Yes but those folk would vote a certain party so totally acceptable ....


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Yes but those folk would vote a certain party so totally acceptable ....



Before they start swinging clubs the Govs have to been at least trying to open dialogue.  

This will be recorded from all angles... Lest get it right the first time.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> They've established dialogue with worse people.
> In October 2021 Canadian officials met with the Taliban to discuss humanitarian aid.
> Link


The American Government literally made a deal with the Mafia so they could make sure the invasion of Italy in WW2 went the way they wanted it to.

Many mob bosses were granted immunity from prosecution in exchange for support.  Some were even forgiven for past crimes and released from prison.

Government will talk and work with whoever the heck they feel like if they think it's in their best interests. Doesn't matter how unscrupulous or bad of a person they are.   Some of our best sources of information are the most detestable human beings you can imagine LOL.

There are literal units in various Government Agencies with this exact mandate 😉





__





						Agent handling - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Furniture (10 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Before they start swinging clubs the Govs have to been at least trying to open dialogue.
> 
> *This will be recorded from all angles... Lest get it right the first time.*


100% the bolded part. 

The OPS made a mistake assuming the protesters would go home at the end of the weekend, but since then they have been doing a good job keeping things calm and contained, particularly given that the politicians have refused to make any attempt to calm the situation.

The protest has spawned multiple other peaceful protests, which while bad, aren't dead bodies in the streets bad. If the OPS goes in gas canisters flying, and clubs swinging, there is real potential for things to blow up horribly. If the loonies see dead protesters in Ottawa, they might decide it's time to get violent. It was bad enough when we were dealing with a few crazed islamists, imagine hundreds of actual far-right (not make believe media ones) militants deciding to act.


----------



## Altair (10 Feb 2022)

New Zealand police arrest Covid protesters as 'freedom convoys' spread
					

The New Zealand protests are the latest sign of the truckers’ growing influence beyond Canada’s borders, as others mimic their strategies to oppose coronavirus restrictions.




					www.nbcnews.com
				






> Police in New Zealand's capital made more than 100 arrests as they moved to clear a protest camp outside the country's parliament where thousands had gathered to rally against Covid-19 restrictions.
> 
> Inspired by “freedom convoy” protests by truckers that have paralyzed the Canadian capital, Ottawa, since late January, demonstrators in Wellington have pitched tents and parked vehicles to block major roads surrounding the legislature since Tuesday.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

Do any of you remember Oka? Where the young soldier and "Lasagna" went face to face?

Do you really want another Canadian Soldier going face to face with one of our citizens for the pleasure of the TV cameras?

I don't.

Jaw jaw is better than war war. Lets give dialogue and chance and issuing ultimatums is not dialogue.

I'm just going to add that if people were this passionate about the destruction of statues that some of us value this would have played out by now.


----------



## Altair (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Do any of you remember Oka? Where the young soldier and "Lasagna" went face to face?
> 
> Do you really want another Canadian Soldier going face to face with one of our citizens for the pleasure of the TVC cameras?
> 
> ...


NZ didn't use soldiers. Just police doing their jobs. 

It's pretty simple, leave or you're under arrest. They don't leave, arrest them calmly.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> New Zealand police arrest Covid protesters as 'freedom convoys' spread
> 
> 
> The New Zealand protests are the latest sign of the truckers’ growing influence beyond Canada’s borders, as others mimic their strategies to oppose coronavirus restrictions.
> ...


You're seriously misrepresenting the size and scope of the protests in NZ vs what's going on in Canada.

Also, Ottawa Police have made arrests. 

Yes, I'm sure those NZ Police would be trying similar tactics if they had to kettle 400+ 18 wheelers, with children in them.

All it takes is one crazy in an 18 wheeler and we've got a bunch of pancakes in downtown Ottawa:








It's ok though Altair, you're clearly a tactical genius and know better than the professionals 🤣


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Do any of you remember Oka? Where the young soldier and "Lasagna" went face to face?
> 
> Do you really want another Canadian Soldier going face to face with one of our citizens for the pleasure of the TV cameras?
> 
> ...


You are working under the assumption that law enforcement haven’t been trying to have a dialogue for the last little while.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> You are working under the assumption that law enforcement haven’t been trying to have a dialogue for the last little while.


Then they better start saying that in press conferences. I haven't watched the Chief from the OPS but the last time I did he made it sound like they were charging up Juno Beach.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ontario court freezes access to donations for truckers' protest from GiveSendGo
> 
> 
> OTTAWA — The Ontario government says it has successfully petitioned a court to freeze access to millions of dollars donated through online fundraising platform GiveSendGo to the convoy protesting COVID-19 restrictions in Ottawa and at several border
> ...


Got to give it to the govthey work very work to not have to talk to them.


OldSolduer said:


> Do any of you remember Oka? Where the young soldier and "Lasagna" went face to face?
> 
> Do you really want another Canadian Soldier going face to face with one of our citizens for the pleasure of the TV cameras?
> 
> ...


As an aside I think read sometime ago about that soldier.  I don't think things turned out very well for him.  Something about a porn movie after being released.  I could be wrong. But is that what we want on our phones and screen?  If the army is deployed....everyone loses. And some forever.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Then they better start saying that in press conferences. I haven't watched the Chief from the OPS but the last time I did he made it sound like they were charging up Juno Beach.


They’ve been saying that they have attempted dialogue on multiple occasions.  They managed to negotiate and have a dozen or so truckers and their vehicles  leave the area but that is just a drop in the bucket.  

At some point dialogue will end.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

> They don't leave, arrest them calmly.



A calm arrest requires cooperation between the parties.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

I don't think talking to the OPS want is wanted.  I think they need a little higher than that.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

Probably for partisan political reasons, restrictions are falling away in the US.  That will put additional pressure on Canadian governments.  Plain old weathervane politics (follow the people) will defuse all the factions protesting restrictions.  That will leave exposed the remnant of people protesting other things.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

Well those asking for something to be done.  They are preparing

Windsor Regional Hospital code orange.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I don't think talking to the OPS want is wanted.  I think they need a little higher than that.


Given the disjointed messaging, ambiguous leadership and unreasonable requests from the mob I doubt that “Higher” is inclined to discuss.


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

FYI



> Brussels joins Paris in banning Canada-style 'freedom convoys'
> 
> 
> The Paris police prefecture said the convoy was an 'undeclared mobilisation', and those taking part risk a two-year prison sentence, a three-year driving ban and a €4,500 fine.
> ...



🍻


----------



## Altair (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You're seriously misrepresenting the size and scope of the protests in NZ vs what's going on in Canada.
> 
> Also, Ottawa Police have made arrests.
> 
> ...


Right, so make up your mind. 

Is it police that are going to be cracking skulls or is it going to be protestors trying to run people down? 

As for tactical genius, give me a break. The professionals have completely messed this up, top to bottom incompetence.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> FYI
> 
> 
> 
> 🍻


France and Belgium also have a lot more Police than Canada and a history of dealing with this very thing.  France has close to 460 police per 100,000, plus they use the Army to protect Federal and high value sites which frees up further police resources.

Canada, by comparion has roughly 185 police per 100,000 people.  The Country is also massive compared to France so the effects of that are even more pronounced.

Ottawa itself is even worse, 121 police per 100,000 citizens.









						Rate of police officers by municipality in Canada 2021 | Statista
					

This statistic shows the number of police officers per 100,000 population in Canada in 2021, distinguished by municipality.




					www.statista.com


----------



## Weinie (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> FYI
> 
> 
> 
> 🍻


So restrictions against those complaining about restrictions. Hmmmmmmmm


----------



## Altair (10 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> A calm arrest requires cooperation between the parties.


I meant from the side of the police. If people resist and get violent, then that's on them and the police should respond as required.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

Weinie said:


> So restrictions against those complaining about restrictions. Hmmmmmmmm


Lawyers love Double Negatives or is this a Triple Negative? 🤔

@FJAG  thoughts 😁


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Right, so make up your mind.
> 
> Is it police that are going to be cracking skulls or is it going to be protestors trying to run people down?
> 
> As for tactical genius, give me a break. The professionals politicians have completely messed this up, top to bottom incompetence.


Whatever you say Clausewitz 😉


----------



## Altair (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Whatever you say Clausewitz 😉


The police chief in Ottawa isn't a politician. 

He's clearly out of his depth crying about everything he cannot do and not doing things he can do. 

Like the police version of general McClellan, just sitting around with his thumb up....


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> France and Belgium also have a lot more Police than Canada and a history of dealing with this very thing.  France has close to 460 police per 100,000, plus they use the Army to protect Federal and high value sites which frees up further police resources.
> 
> Canada, by comparion has roughly 185 police per 100,000 people.  The Country is also massive compared to France so the effects of that are even more pronounced.
> 
> ...


I may have mentioned before that a decade and a half or so in the past I was in Strasbourg literally in the middle of a large anarchists' demonstration. I was highly impressed with the way France handled that. The demonstration had a light police presence but shadowing the demonstration was a very large and well equipped riot police force with all the requisite gear and in a large herd of little minibuses and vans. The demonstration went fairly loudly with huge amounts of spray paint used for slogans on buildings and statues but peacefully. Overnight crews went in with pressure washers and by the next morning all signs of the demonstration were gone.

We do have a lot to learn.

🚐


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The police chief in Ottawa isn't a politician.
> 
> He's clearly out of his depth crying about everything he cannot do and not doing things he can do.
> 
> Like the police version of general McClellan, just sitting around with his thumb up....


Look at you all full of bluster, very surprised you're not a commando with all the tough talk 😎


----------



## Blackadder1916 (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Well those asking for something to be done.  They are preparing
> 
> Windsor Regional Hospital code orange.



For those unfamiliar with hospital codes



			https://www.wrh.on.ca/uploads/MedicalStudents/MedStudentsEmergencyCodes.pdf
		


"Orange" is disaster in the community


----------



## Altair (10 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Look at you all full of bluster, very surprised you're not a commando with all the tough talk 😎


I look at other cities in Canada and they have not allowed for this to happen in their downtown cores or their legislative grounds. 

Are they commandos? No. Competent? Oh my, yes. 

Ottawa should do away with their chief and bring in the guy running the show in Quebec city.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> I may have mentioned before that a decade and a half or so in the past I was in Strasbourg literally in the middle of a large anarchists' demonstration. I was highly impressed with the way France handled that. The demonstration had a light police presence but shadowing the demonstration was a very large and well equipped riot police force with all the requisite gear and in a large herd of little minibuses and vans. The demonstration went fairly loudly with huge amounts of spray paint used for slogans on buildings and statues but peacefully. Overnight crews went in with pressure washers and by the next morning all signs of the demonstration were gone.
> 
> We do have a lot to learn.
> 
> 🚐


I saw similar scenes in Paris.  Large demonstrations shadowed the entire time by Police.  

Of course, the Gendarmerie were parked around the block, with water cannons, armoured vehicles and 100s of riot police if things got out of hand.

Also, all of the major sites: Eiffel Tower, Louvre, Arc de Triomphe, CdeG Airport, Metro, etc. Were patrolled by soldiers.  

The soldiers were all in groups of four, with rifles and a mag on the weapon.  The soldiers were very friendly and would talk to people but their presence was definitely felt.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

Brussels joins Paris...yeah, I've always looked to the French as a guide to enlightened governance.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Probably for partisan political reasons, restrictions are falling away in the US.  That will put additional pressure on Canadian governments.  Plain old weathervane politics (follow the people) will defuse all the factions protesting restrictions.  That will leave exposed the remnant of people protesting other things.


Well Canada is the only G7 country still mandating PCR-testing before and after air travel.

That makes us leaders, right? 😉 









						Canada's COVID travel restrictions need to be lifted: tourism | CityNews Toronto
					

As we slowly emerge from the Omicron wave and countries ease restrictions on international travel, there are growing calls for Canada to follow suit.



					toronto.citynews.ca


----------



## FJAG (10 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Brussels joins Paris...yeah, I've always looked to the French as a guide to enlightened governance.


They are the originators of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and it's still their national motto.

😉


----------



## SupersonicMax (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I have heard something about truckers going the airports.
> 
> If the truckers blocked NavCanada Goose Bay would that not knockout all trans Atlantic flights?  That would that may get some real attention.
> 
> Probably not enough people and trucks there.


Oceanic control is not done from Goose Bay.  There would be no impact.  And there is no NavCan presence in Goose.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I look at other cities in Canada and they have not allowed for this to happen in their downtown cores or their legislative grounds.
> 
> Are they commandos? No. Competent? Oh my, yes.
> 
> Ottawa should do away with their chief and bring in the guy running the show in Quebec city.


QC had the benefit of seeing what happened here. I have no doubt that TO and QC would have had bigger issues if they were the first to be targeted .


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Feb 2022)

> They are the originators of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and it's still their national motto.



Also the Terror, Napoleon, and Vichy.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

Ok question as has been pointed out the aide to civil authority process. If the mayor requests etc. Could this be done in secret or quiet? Must it be public?


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Ok question as has been pointed out the aide to civil authority process. If the mayor requests etc. Could this be done in secret or quiet? Must it be public?


Its up to the province to ask the Feds. I am not sure who does the asking and the answering. I do reckon there would be a debate in cabinet to accept the request or deny it. 

The Mayors of Whatever City cannot ask the Feds directly for assistance....I think. I know Mayor Mel wanted troops for a snowstorm, but in Winnipeg we call that Tuesday.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Its up to the province to ask the Feds. I am not sure who does the asking and the answering. I do reckon there would be a debate in cabinet to accept the request or deny it.
> 
> The Mayors of Whatever City cannot ask the Feds directly for assistance....I think. I know Mayor Mel wanted troops for a snowstorm, but in Winnipeg we call that Tuesday.


Mayor can go to the province.  Province asks the feds. feds say yea or nay.  In a nutshell. 

Anyone can yell at the moon about getting military assistance though.


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

The reason I ask is that few people asked me about things. They said they saw big green scary tank like thingies with wheels in the area.  It was a LAV by their description. I was trying to tell them that no orders have been sent.

I told them just regular and/or reserve training. Nothing to get worked up about.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I have no doubt that TO and QC would have had bigger issues if they were the first to be targeted .


QC and TO also had less to gain politically from letting the protestors set up shop and putting them on display.


----------



## Furniture (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> The reason I ask is that few people asked me about things. They said they saw big green scary tank like thingies with wheels in the area.  It was a LAV by their description. I was trying to tell them that no orders have been sent.
> 
> I told them just regular and/or reserve training. Nothing to get worked up about.


I suspect there is no reserve training happening anywhere near the protests.


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> The reason I ask is that few people asked me about things. They said they saw big green scary tank like thingies with wheels in the area.  It was a LAV by their description. I was trying to tell them that no orders have been sent.
> 
> I told them just regular and/or reserve training. Nothing to get worked up about.


Any chance they were describing a TAPV?


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> I suspect there is no reserve training happening anywhere near the protests.


Cartier Square Drill Hall is close by.  One of the fuel depots and shack that they built was near there.  It’s about 10 tmins walking distance to where things are happening.   

There are no LAVS at CSDH.  They can barely park any real green fleet there.  If LAVS aware anywhere near the protest it would be noticed.  Not something you can hide in Downtown Ottawa.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Any chance they were describing a TAPV?


Or OPS’ armoured car.  They have a bearcat.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491971458616250375
Looks like the US might have had enough of the tantrum at the bridges…


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Or OPS’ armoured car.  They have a bearcat.


Sorry, I assumed he was talking about Windsor. I guess my remote viewing is a little off today.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> The reason I ask is that few people asked me about things. They said they saw big green scary tank like thingies with wheels in the area.  It was a LAV by their description. I was trying to tell them that no orders have been sent.
> 
> I told them just regular and/or reserve training. Nothing to get worked up about.


----------



## Remius (10 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Sorry, I assumed he was talking about Windsor. I guess my remote viewing is a little off today.


Oh maybe lol.  I thought he was talking about Ottawa.


----------



## dapaterson (10 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Any chance they were describing a TAPV?


Was it on fire?


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Meanwhile…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491971458616250375
> Looks like the US might have had enough of the tantrum at the bridges…


More of the same from elsewhere ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491907291406376967


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

Seen in Essex County.  I asked if 4 or 8 wheels?  I got big green tank thingy. Lol

Plus Windsor at one point had a Grizzy but I think they were getting a Bearcats too


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Or OPS’ armoured car.  They have a bearcat.



Looks pretty practical ...

... lots of places to open a beer bottle


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Seen in Essex County.  I asked if 4 or 8 wheels?  I got big green tank thingy. Lol
> 
> Plus Windsor at one point had a Grizzy but I think they were getting a Bearcats too


Could be a vehicle or patrol from The Windsor Regiment (RCAC).


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Feb 2022)

Well well. Things move fast the website Give Send Go has dumped the money into a new formed American non-profit "Incorporated Human Rights and Freedom 2022 and Freedom Association." They have purchased crypto to send to the Canadian truckers.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Feb 2022)

More proof that Canada is a global leader 

‘Snowball effect’: Canada’s trucker convoy sparks anti-mandate protests globally​
The so-called “Freedom Convoy” protest movement against COVID-19 vaccine mandates that has paralyzed the Canadian capital and spilled over to key Canada-U.S. border crossings has gained global momentum, with similar demonstrations popping up in other parts of the world.




Since Jan. 28, a convoy of vehicles, mostly trucks, has been parked around Parliament Hill, disrupting traffic in Ottawa’s downtown core.
*READ MORE: *‘Incredibly scary’: How Canada’s trucker convoy protest is galvanizing the American right

Many in the hundreds of vehicles have vowed to stay until all COVID-19 restrictions, including mask and vaccination mandates, are lifted.
As the Canadian truckers — many with families and children — continue to clog Ottawa’s streets, anti-vaccine mandate protests in several other countries have also picked up steam.

Kerry Bowman, a professor of bioethics and global health at the University of Toronto, said the Canadian trucker protest resonates with people around the world.

“There’s a lot of pent-up frustration and it’s resonating not just around the country, but it’s resonating globally,” he told Global News.
However, he is concerned about how the movement is portraying Canada on the global stage and the impact this could potentially have on the COVID-19 pandemic response.

“What I worry about is will it erode the … the acceptance of public health intervention in the future if in fact the pandemic continues or …. if we have another pandemic someday within our lifetime,” Bowman said.

Inspired by the Canadian truckers, French protesters set out from southern France on Wednesday in what they call a “freedom convoy” that will converge on Paris and Brussels — headquarters of the European Union — to demand an end to COVID-19 restrictions.









						‘Snowball effect’: Canada’s trucker convoy sparks anti-mandate protests globally - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Copycat protests inspired by the so-called “Freedom Convoy” in Ottawa have so far been held in Australia, New Zealand and France, with an American version in the works.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Well well. Things move fast the website Give Send Go has dumped the money into a new formed American non-profit *"Incorporated Human Rights and Freedom 2022 and Freedom Association."* They have purchased crypto to send to the Canadian truckers.


Sorta-kinda similar sounding non-profit formed in Canada end of January, too ....


> So there is a new non-profit:  Freedom 2022 Human Rights and Freedoms.  It was just incorporated on January 31, 2022.   It appears to be similar to the name of the group identified in the US website/crowdfunding platform GiveSendGo to be the recipient of the funds raised for the “Freedom Convoy 2022″ namely ‘Incorporated Freedom 2022 Human Rights And Freedom Association”.  Not sure if it is the same group.
> 
> If you want to search the Federal registry for Canadian Federal non-profits you can do so at:
> Search for a Federal Corporation - Online Filing Centre - Corporations Canada - Corporations - Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada
> ...


🍿


daftandbarmy said:


> More proof that Canada is a global leader
> 
> ‘Snowball effect’: Canada’s trucker convoy sparks anti-mandate protests globally ....​


Russia's Pravda agrees (links to archived version of article)


> The protests that Canadian truckers and their supporters arranged against mandatory vaccinations and lockdowns in Canada has attracted global attention.
> 
> Similar movements appear in Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand, in France. The governments of many Western countries have turned their vaccination campaigns against COVID-19 into a war against the unvaccinated ...


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Meanwhile…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491971458616250375
> Looks like the US might have had enough of the tantrum at the bridges…


But, but, but….Fortress (Made in) America!

(Doesn’t need its communist cousins from the north…)


----------



## Furniture (11 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> “What I worry about is will it erode the … the acceptance of public health intervention in the future if in fact the pandemic continues or …. if we have another pandemic someday within our lifetime,” Bowman said.


Perhaps the public health experts, and governments should have considered how their messaging undermined public acceptance of their interventions*, or thought a bit harder about the severity and frequency of the the interventions being used. 

People can accept hardship when there is a clear goal, or end state. When things aren't well communicated, and there seems to be no end, people get angry. 

*I love the euphemism for government coercion.


----------



## blacktriangle (11 Feb 2022)

The world is growing the protest from the heart outwards.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

“Everyone love each other….because it’s 2022!”


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Perhaps the public health experts, and governments should have considered how their messaging undermined public acceptance of their interventions*, or thought a bit harder about the severity and frequency of the the interventions being used.
> 
> People can accept hardship when there is a clear goal, or end state. When things aren't well communicated, and there seems to be no end, people get angry.
> 
> *I love the euphemism for government coercion.


I think many of agree the government has gotten a D- at best when it comes to how it delivered its message during the pandemic


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> “Everyone love each other….because it’s 2022!”
> 
> View attachment 68628


I mean, a week ago I would have told you I expect the US Military to invade Mexico sometime in the next 20 years to quell some sort of civil insurrection.  

Now I think I might have to change that bet to Canada 😬


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

Crazy idea, declare state of emergency, call in the CAF, but not for enforcement. Police move in and arrest and remove all truck drivers and protestors. You then bring in MSE ops to move every vehicle to a secure compound, then charge 1-5000 a day till they retrieve them.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Wonder what this'll be about?


> Premier Doug Ford will be joined by Solicitor General Sylvia Jones, Attorney General Doug Downey and Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation, to make an announcement.
> 
> Date:  Friday, February 11, 2022
> Time:  Remarks at 10:30 a.m.
> ...


----------



## lenaitch (11 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Got to give it to the govthey work very work to not have to talk to them.
> 
> As an aside I think read sometime ago about that soldier.  I don't think things turned out very well for him.  Something about a porn movie after being released.  I could be wrong. But is that what we want on our phones and screen?  If the army is deployed....everyone loses. And some forever.





The Bread Guy said:


> More of the same from elsewhere ...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491907291406376967


The President or a state governor likely has the authority to clear any international bridge - to the middle of the river.  One wonders why they haven't done that yet to show us how it's done.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491980741059690496
Interesting change of tone…


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The President or a state governor likely has the authority to clear any international bridge - to the middle of the river.  One wonders why they haven't done that yet to show us how it's done.



Their first mistake was letting the trucks on the bridge in the first place, IMHO.

If there's an example of cross border security failure required, that would be it.


----------



## mariomike (11 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Matt Gurney: In Ottawa, the unstoppable force approaches the immovable object
> 
> 
> A significant slice of our population is furious. It doesn't matter if you think they're wrong. What are we going to do about it?
> ...



Interesting how he "blended in".



> I should also note that I'm a tall, unsmiling white dude with a buzzed head who wandered the area in a gigantic and delightfully warm NFL hoodie, and it's very possible that my experience was skewed by the fact that I blended in.
> The crowd is overwhelmingly white, but not exclusively so. If you're _looking_ for a bit of colour, you'll find it, but you will have to look.



From our discussion,



> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support…



Canada Truckers' Protests: Why South Asians Have Avoided Joining Freedom Convoy​








						Canada Truckers' Protests: Why South Asians Have Avoided Joining Freedom Convoy
					

Trudeau has called the protesting truckers a "small fringe minority" who "do not represent the views of Canadians."




					www.thequint.com
				





> "First and foremost, the South Asian community at large is hardly anti-vaccine. There is no anti-vaccine sentiment. In fact, the community has been at the forefront in organising vaccination clinics. Our religious places of worship, our temples, our Sikh gurdwaras, our mosques – they have opened their doors to organise those vaccine clinics."





> It hasn't been about truckers since before it arrived in Ottawa,



Interesting to "watch what happens" next election.


----------



## FSTO (11 Feb 2022)

The government has assembled the Incident Response Group!


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

CTV News | Watch live | Video news
					

Watch LIVE events and breaking news video from Canada and around the world. CTV National News with Omar Sachedina, CTV News Channel and more.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




So the occupiers have decided to swear themselves in as “peace officers”.   

Anyone that supports this care to explain this away as normal?


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> CTV News | Watch live | Video news
> 
> 
> Watch LIVE events and breaking news video from Canada and around the world. CTV National News with Omar Sachedina, CTV News Channel and more.
> ...


----------



## QV (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> CTV News | Watch live | Video news
> 
> 
> Watch LIVE events and breaking news video from Canada and around the world. CTV National News with Omar Sachedina, CTV News Channel and more.
> ...


People can support the idea of no more mandates and restrictions without supporting cherry picked incidents of idiocy.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> People can support the idea of no more mandates and restrictions without supporting cherry picked incidents of idiocy.


That really wasn’t what I was asking.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> CTV News | Watch live | Video news
> 
> 
> Watch LIVE events and breaking news video from Canada and around the world. CTV National News with Omar Sachedina, CTV News Channel and more.
> ...


A titch more in print ...


> ... protesters have taken it upon themselves to designate members of the group as officers of the peace.
> 
> In a ceremony witnessed on social media Thursday, protesters in Ottawa can be seen on video "swearing themselves in as peace officers" and taking a vow which they allege deputizes them to "arrest and detain" anyone they deem as disturbing the peace.
> 
> The protesters in the video claim the Ottawa Police Service is aware of their actions ...


LEO's jump in, but the Criminal Code seems pretty comprehensive on who's a "peace officer" as well as who can arrest who.

Then again, they're "swearing in" as "officers of the peace", right? #SovereignCitizensNorth


----------



## FSTO (11 Feb 2022)

Freeman on the Land types?


The Bread Guy said:


> A titch more in print ...
> 
> LEO's jump in, but the Criminal Code seems pretty comprehensive on who's a "peace officer" as well as who can arrest who.
> 
> Then again, they're "swearing in" as "officers of the peace", right? #SovereignCitizensNorth


----------



## RangerRay (11 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> A titch more in print ...
> 
> LEO's jump in, but the Criminal Code seems pretty comprehensive on who's a "peace officer" as well as who can arrest who.
> 
> Then again, they're "swearing in" as "officers of the peace", right? #SovereignCitizensNorth


This is straight out of Freemen-on-the-Land/Sovereign Citizen SOP. The FBI considers them to be a domestic terrorism threat and they have a history of killing law enforcement when they, you know, enforce the law. 

Their MOU is full of pseudo-legal nonsense that FOL are know to use. 









						Sovereign Citizens: A Growing Domestic Threat to Law Enforcement | FBI: Law Enforcement Bulletin
					

Law enforcement must become knowledgeable and aware of sovereign-citizen extremists.




					leb.fbi.gov
				






AFAIK, only a duly constituted authority (i.e. The Crown) May appoint law enforcement officers in Canada. Citizens arrest is limited to “found committing an indictable offence”. 

There are some nefarious forces at work behind the scenes of this street party.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> ... Their MOU is full of pseudo-legal nonsense that FOL are know to use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, I've been told that's already outta date re:  the demand narrative - funny how it keeps coming up, though?


----------



## Spencer100 (11 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Their first mistake was letting the trucks on the bridge in the first place, IMHO.
> 
> If there's an example of cross border security failure required, that would be it.


They are not on the bridge itself.  They are on Huron Church the main road into the bridge complex.  The Ambassador Bridge is privately owned.  (That is quite the story if you look it up)  And if they were the Bridge company could have done something by now.  Trust me on that one.  But the people set up know the deal there. 

They also have the back way blocked too.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Doug Ford making his announcements right now.

State of emergency declared and whole bunch of penalties, fines and enforcement.  

I like his tone.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Premier Ford declares state of emergency in Ontario over blockade; court grants Ambassador Bridge injunction
					

The Ontario government has invoked new emergency measures by declaring a state of emergency aimed at protesters and ending the blockade at a key border crossing in the province, including stiffer fines and penalties for protesters.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Kilted (11 Feb 2022)

He has definitely left the option of using force wide open.


----------



## Czech_pivo (11 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The President or a state governor likely has the authority to clear any international bridge - to the middle of the river.  One wonders why they haven't done that yet to show us how it's done.


Because I don't think the bridge itself is blocked, only the entrance/exit on the CDN side.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> He has definitely left the option of using force wide open.


Another one not entertaining the option of negotiation with the protestors.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Another one not entertaining the option of negotiation with the protestors.


They aren’t protesters any more.


----------



## Spencer100 (11 Feb 2022)

I am so sad.  

Remius you can have your wish of heads creaked opened.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I am so sad.
> 
> Remius you can have your wish of heads creaked opened.


Where did I ever wish that?


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

Using violence against this people will only strengthen their resolve and grow their ranks.  

It's not the right move.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Using violence against this people will only strengthen their resolve and grow their ranks.
> 
> It's not the right move.


It’s exactly what they want.  They use Taliban tactics and put their children in the way.   In Ottawa, if you’ve been down there, it is very noticeable that those occupiers are always carrying their “tools”.  Hammers, crowbars and tire irons.  That is by design. Don’t kid yourself.  That side wants violence.


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s exactly what they want.  They use Taliban tactics and put their children in the way.   In Ottawa, if you’ve been down there, it is very noticeable that those occupiers are always carrying their “tools”.  Hammers, crowbars and tire irons.  That is by design. Don’t kid yourself.  That side wants violence.



Couple of points; I'm not part of the protest so I don't know that they are hoping for violence to be brought on them.  I find that suspect.

Children have been brought to; and used at protests since time immemorial.  We had a group do it here in Halifax while they were protesting about housing.  It's also not the calling card of one political stance.  And all are despicable for using kids in the that manner. 

Lastly, they aren't using Taliban tactics don't be so inflammatory.  No one  is sending out VBIEDs and suicide bombers or killing their political opponents, when they do, I will side with you.

Honestly @Remius it sounds like you're the one who wants violence.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Couple of points I'm not part of the protest so I don't know that they are hoping for violence to be brought on them.  I find that suspect.
> 
> Children have been brought too and used at protests since time immemorial.  We had a group do it here in Halifax while they were protesting about housing.  It's also not the calling card of one politic stance.  And all are dispicable for using kids in the that manner.
> 
> ...


Yah I LOL'ed at Taliban Tactics 🤣

I haven't seen any VBIEDs, Ambushes, Summary Executions, Rape and Torture or Bacha Bazi being carried out so yep, definitely inflammatory.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Honestly @Remius it sounds like you're the one who wants violence.


Show me where I have said that.  I get that you have no sympathy for Ottawa or that you can't see the side you support is slowly being revealed for what it is but if you want to accuse me if something, back it up.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Using violence against this people will only strengthen their resolve and grow their ranks.
> 
> It's not the right move.


Arresting people for breaking the law is violence now?


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Arresting people for breaking the law is violence now?


Apparently.   I swear this site has turned into bizzaro world.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apparently.   I swear this site has turned into bizzaro world.


I cannot wait until the next BLM or first nations protest.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Show me where I have said that.  I get that you have no sympathy for Ottawa or that you can't see the side you support is slowly being revealed for what it is but if you want to accuse me if something, back it up.


You literally said they are using Taliban Tactics.  We said you were wrong 🤣



Altair said:


> Arresting people for breaking the law is violence now?


Nope, personally I want this to end ASAP.  I hope for everyone's sake a negotiated settlement or MOU is achievable.  

I would also personally like to see the Government walk back Emergency Powers or at least articulate their plan on how they plan on doing that.  Vaccine Passports and Mandates were brought in under Emergency Powers so they need to end when the Emergency is over.


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Show me where I have said that.  I get that you have no sympathy for Ottawa or that you can't see the side you support is slowly being revealed for what it is but if you want to accuse me if something, back it up.



Its simply the impression that I get when you use terms like Taliban tactics...

If I am wrong I am wrong only you know that.  No reason to get all out of gear.

I don't have a side my friend, no matter how much I am enjoying watching Ottawa and the rest of the center of Canada squirm right now.



Altair said:


> Arresting people for breaking the law is violence now?



Not at all.  It can be done unnecessarily violent though, I think you would both agree on that.

Lets both hope it doesn't get to that eh ?


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

I will freely admit that my language about Taliban tactics us indeed inflammatory.  I'll retract that. 

However.  There is likely a lot going on that hasn't been made public.  And there are former LEOs advising this thing and the tactics being used are exploiting that.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Feb 2022)

> “What I worry about is will it erode the … the acceptance of public health intervention in the future if in fact the pandemic continues or …. if we have another pandemic someday within our lifetime,” Bowman said.



Useless safety-ism.  What erodes the acceptance of public health intervention is when people who impose strict restrictions in their own backyard proceed to ignore those restrictions for themselves.


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I will freely admit that my language about Taliban tactics us indeed inflammatory.  I'll retract that.
> 
> However.  There is likely a lot going on that hasn't been made public.  And there are former LEOs advising this thing and the tactics being used are exploiting that.



Link ?


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Also waitin' for the courts to help get the Windsor-Detroit crossing fully opened up, too ....








						Injunction granted to prevent protesters from blocking Ambassador Bridge
					

Protesters blocking one of Canada's busiest border crossings were dealt a one-two punch Friday, as a court granted an injunction banning their blockade and Ontario's premier declared a state of emergency that would subject them to major fines.




					www.cp24.com


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Its simply the impression that I get when you use terms like Taliban tactics...
> 
> If I am wrong I am wrong only you know that.  No reason to get all out of gear.
> 
> ...





Halifax Tar said:


> Its simply the impression that I get when you use terms like Taliban tactics...
> 
> If I am wrong I am wrong only you know that.  No reason to get all out of gear.
> 
> ...


Your posting history clearly shows you have a side.  I can respect that you have a position even if we disagree.  But don't play games like that.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I will freely admit that my language about Taliban tactics us indeed inflammatory.  I'll retract that.
> 
> However.  There is likely a lot going on that hasn't been made public.  And there are former LEOs advising this thing and the tactics being used are exploiting that.


Thank you.

Yep, I've read up on some of the background actors.  This was my concern from the very start of COVID Mandates and use of endless Emergency Orders.  It's a raw numbers game at this point.  Unless we are prepared to completely overhaul our Justice System, massively increase funding to police and security forces (which Canadians hate paying for btw), etc.  I don't see how our position is, to steal words from Sweden:  "Sustainable"

If you study the history of far right radicalization, you'll know that in places like Germany and Italy, it festered for a decade + before it exploded, mostly because the underlying causes were never addressed.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> ... If you study the history of far right radicalization, you'll know that in places like Germany and Italy, it festered for a decade + before it exploded, mostly because *the underlying causes were never addressed*.


Yellow bit is true for pretty much _all_ colours/brands of radicalization, for sure.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Link ?P





Halifax Tar said:


> Link ?











						Who is who? A guide to the major players in the trucker convoy protest
					

CTVNews.ca takes a look at who has stepped forward publicly as the organizers and influential protesters of the Ottawa convoy.



					www.ctvnews.ca
				




I'll let you do your own research about them.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I will freely admit that my language about Taliban tactics us indeed inflammatory.  I'll retract that.
> 
> However.  There is likely a lot going on that hasn't been made public.  And there are former LEOs advising this thing and the tactics being used are exploiting that.


So the government(s) is(are) keeping information from the public.  You don’t see that as having any impact at all to citizens’ trust?


----------



## mariomike (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I swear this site has turned into bizzaro world.



A pom-pom squad in an echo chamber?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

That's the question I have for all those "Arrest the Offenders Crowd?"

And do what with them exactly?  Our Jails aren't exactly brimming with room and the Justice System is already overwhelmed.  So what is the End State we want to achieve here?

Just last year, we were on the path of "defund the police" now we are going to do a hard right turn and up the tempo?

FYI, I was very critical of the Police during that time and their treatment of BIPOC.  I'm also critical of the way we've treated Indigenous in this Country historically and still to this day.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> A pom-pom squad in an echo chamber?


Says the guy whose only contribution to this thread is google reposts.  

Now if you'll let @Remius and I have a conversation, that would be wonderful 😎

Edited for personal attack


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> A titch more in print ...
> 
> LEO's jump in, but the Criminal Code seems pretty comprehensive on who's a "peace officer" as well as who can arrest who.
> 
> Then again, they're "swearing in" as "officers of the peace", right? #SovereignCitizensNorth


So they are now impersonating peace officers...ooo I like charges against dumb people


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> So they are now impersonating peace officers...ooo I like charges against dumb people


Start a Stolen Valour page and troll them 🤣


----------



## Czech_pivo (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Who is who? A guide to the major players in the trucker convoy protest
> 
> 
> CTVNews.ca takes a look at who has stepped forward publicly as the organizers and influential protesters of the Ottawa convoy.
> ...


What a jolly bunch of people. Would love to hear their thoughts on if Hitler made it out of the bunker and safely to South America back in '45. Also their thoughts on if Fluoride in the drinking water is sterilizing Caucasian men.


----------



## mariomike (11 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> I don’t think the government should establish any dialogue with people, such as Paul Bauder, who have openly called for bringing down a government that was elected by the people.



I think his first name is James. But, you make an interesting point.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> A pom-pom squad in an echo chamber?


It's rarely been so blatant. 

Depressing really.


----------



## JLB50 (11 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I think his first name is James. But, you make an interesting point.


Yes, it is James Bauder.  Not exactly the kind of person I’d want to see nominated for the Order of Canada.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

JLB50 said:


> Yes, it is James Bauder.  Not exactly the kind of person I’d want to see nominated for the Order of Canada.


I don't think you'll have to worry about that happening any time soon 😁


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't think you'll have to worry about that happening any time soon 😁


Well, he didn’t kill someone with a vehicle, allegedly physically abuse his spouse, and harass his employees, did he?  Or wait, that’s the Order of Canada…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well, he didn’t kill someone with a vehicle, allegedly physically abuse his spouse, and harass his employees, did he?  Or wait, that’s the Order of Canada…


And apparently, after careful review, they aren't going to lose theirs after all 😆


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> That's the question I have for all those "Arrest the Offenders Crowd?"
> 
> And do what with them exactly?  Our Jails aren't exactly brimming with room and the Justice System is already overwhelmed.  So what is the End State we want to achieve here?.



Actually we have tons of room right now....


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

PM says 'everything' on the table to end blockades following Biden call
					

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says that 'everything'—with the exception of deploying the Canadian Armed Forces—is currently on the table to bring the ongoing protests and blockades set up across the country to an end. Trudeau declined to get into specifics about just how or when the...




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Sounds like the Americans will not let our government kick the can down the road on this one, they want action.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> PM says 'everything' on the table to end blockades following Biden call
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says that 'everything'—with the exception of deploying the Canadian Armed Forces—is currently on the table to bring the ongoing protests and blockades set up across the country to an end. Trudeau declined to get into specifics about just how or when the...
> ...


Yep General (Ret'd) Day found the response to this vs sorting out the issues in our seat of democracy interesting:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492192209290080261
I've read scores of tactical units have arrived in Windsor.  My take is the Americans have said in no uncertain terms, open the border or we will come over and do it for you.

Blockading a port of entry of a sovereign nation could be considered an act of war.


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> PM says 'everything' on the table to end blockades following Biden call
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says that 'everything'—with the exception of deploying the Canadian Armed Forces—is currently on the table to bring the ongoing protests and blockades set up across the country to an end. Trudeau declined to get into specifics about just how or when the...
> ...



Is this his just watch me moment ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yep General (Ret'd) Day found the response to this vs sorting out the issues in our seat of democracy interesting:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492192209290080261
> ...



I have no doubt there Americans are forcing our hand.  

Oh well, I only pray there is no violence.  We don't need to turn these people into martyrs.


----------



## Haggis (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is this his "just watch me!" moment ?


I was thinking the same thing and I hope not.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I have no doubt there Americans are forcing our hand.
> 
> Oh well, I only pray there is no violence.  We don't need to turn these people into martyrs.


Not only that they are Canadian for the most part. Let’s keep that in mind.

As an observation where were all the mayors when BLM et al protests were ongoing? I may have missed them.


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Not only that they are Canadian for the most part. Let’s keep that in mind.
> 
> As an observation where were all the mayors when BLM et al protests were ongoing? I may have missed them.



I think the BLM protests in Canada were actually dispersed much quicker than this one has been let to go on.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think the BLM protests in Canada were actually dispersed much quick than this one has been let to go on.


nor were they costing the economy a quarter of a billion dollars a day in trade.


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Not only that they are Canadian for the most part. Let’s keep that in mind.
> 
> As an observation where were all the mayors when BLM et al protests were ongoing? I may have missed them.


The BLM protests were pretty tame. 

I think only Montreal had issues of vandalism and the police took action three hours into it.  Declared it illegal and started making arrests.  Premier Legault and the mayor Montreal at the time denounced the actions.

Ottawa non violent BLM protest shutting down a key intersection was stopped three days in.  All were arrested (and subsequently released)

Toronto and Vancouver had no issues.

I may have missed something though but those ones off hand.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So the government(s) is(are) keeping information from the public.  You don’t see that as having any impact at all to citizens’ trust?


So you're good to go with governments sharing tactical response details with the public?  😉


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> So you're good to go with governments sharing tactical response details with the public?  😉



I mean we already share troop and ship movement ? Lol


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I mean we already share troop and ship movement ? Lol


Loose finger tips on social media sink ships, right?


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The BLM protests were pretty tame.
> 
> I think only Montreal had issues of vandalism and the police took action three hours into it.  Declared it illegal and started making arrests.  Premier Legault and the mayor Montreal at the time denounced the actions.
> 
> ...


Its rather telling that the convoy occupation/protestors expect special treatment from police when it comes to enforcement. 

First nations and POC just expect the cops to bust their heads open for protesting.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> PM says 'everything' on the table to end blockades following Biden call
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says that 'everything'—with the exception of deploying the Canadian Armed Forces—is currently on the table to bring the ongoing protests and blockades set up across the country to an end. Trudeau declined to get into specifics about just how or when the...
> ...


Oh, so it’s not just the City of Ottawa’s problem anymore?


The Bread Guy said:


> So you're good to go with governments sharing tactical response details with the public?  😉


There is reasonable balance to be had.  I get primarily from Chief Sloly that things are so bad, that asking for ‘the Army’ still remains on his wish list, but I personally think that there’s room to provide more than just how many tickets we issued and protestors arrested…because without any more, the extreme handwringing from Chief Sloly about potentially (finally?) asking about calling in the Army makes many wonder if there’s an Oka brewing…?  

I do not think the info flow is balanced yet.  I’m being expected to ‘trust us’ says government, but between the municipal floundering and the federal gaslighting, there’s not much there.  

To date, Doug Ford, contrary to many prognosticators, he’s actually shown a modicum of grip on things after Tactical/municipal floundering and predominantly an endless vapid word salad coming out of federal politicians.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> PM says 'everything' on the table to end blockades following Biden call
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says that 'everything'—with the exception of deploying the Canadian Armed Forces—is currently on the table to bring the ongoing protests and blockades set up across the country to an end. Trudeau declined to get into specifics about just how or when the...
> ...








> I want to remind everyone that politicians don't direct police in a democratic society,


but sometimes they give the attorney general a little nudge.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> but sometimes they give the attorney general a little nudge.


Some (at least allegedly) have in the past, indeed ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Feb 2022)

> Is this his "just watch me!" moment ?



Only if he made the decision largely by himself.  Otherwise, it is a "US: Jump; Trudeau: How high?" moment.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Feb 2022)

> nor were they costing the economy a quarter of a billion dollars a day in trade.



So it's like a longshoreman's strike and we should settle by meeting their demands quickly?


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Feb 2022)

> First nations and POC just expect the cops to bust their heads open for protesting.



Yeah, those are the ones they remember and talk about for the media.  They don't talk so much about the ones where they are allowed to protest for weeks and months at a stretch.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> So it's like a longshoreman's strike and we should settle by meeting their demands quickly?


Not in the slightest. 

This is less of a strike and more of a tantrum. 

This does not need to be entertained in the slightest. Which is why there are no negotiations with the PM or any of the premiers. Just enforcement.


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

Injunction to end Windsor border protest granted following Ontario court hearing
					

An injunction to remove protesters blocking traffic to the Ambassador Bridge International border crossing in Windsor, Ont. has been granted following an Ontario Superior Court of Justice hearing on Friday.




					windsor.ctvnews.ca
				




Injunction to go into effect at 7pm. We shall see if anything actually happens at 7:01.


----------



## Haggis (11 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah, those are the ones they remember and talk about for the media.  They don't talk so much about the ones where they are allowed to protest for weeks and months at a stretch.


Cashedonia?


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Not in the slightest.
> 
> This is less of a strike and more of a tantrum.
> 
> This does not need to be entertained in the slightest. Which is why there are no negotiations with the PM or any of the premiers. Just enforcement.






> "On farmer protest, PM Trudeau commended efforts of the Government of India to choose* the path of dialogue as befitting a democracy,"*



One of those classic rules for thee moments.


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Feb 2022)

An article from 30 Jan is an interesting read.

The so-called Freedom Convoy was never about truckers, or border mandates


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> One of those classic rules for thee moments.


It's weird how you take my opinion and Trudeaus opinion as one and the same. 

Why is that?


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Not in the slightest.
> 
> This is less of a strike and more of a tantrum.
> 
> This does not need to be entertained in the slightest. Which is why there are no negotiations with the PM or any of the premiers. Just enforcement.


…half a month later.

You know when you get a call from a Dem POTUS telling you to sort it out with enforcement, you pretty much confirm that your acting very similarly to a dithering word salad…

EDIT to add:

So for those keeping the “I told you so” score:

Chief Sloly: 1
PMJT: 0


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …half a month later.
> 
> You know when you get a call from a Dem POTUS telling you to sort it out with enforcement, you pretty much confirm that your acting very similarly to a dithering word salad…


Yeah, except PMJT isn't actually doing anything is he?

Doug Ford is the one making moves. Which begs the question, why didn't Doug Ford make moves before Biden called Trudeau?


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, except PMJT isn't actually doing anything is he?
> 
> Doug Ford is the one making moves. Which begs the question, why didn't Doug Ford make moves before Biden called Trudeau?


Give more credibility? Cause now it's an international problem


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, except PMJT isn't actually doing anything is he?
> 
> Doug Ford is the one making moves. Which begs the question, why didn't Doug Ford make moves before Biden called Trudeau?


Bet your chain of command loves you....


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Bet your chain of command loves you....


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, except PMJT isn't actually doing anything is he?
> 
> Doug Ford is the one making moves. Which begs the question, why didn't Doug Ford make moves before Biden called Trudeau?


Because he needed time to make sure that even the Liberal media understood that it was Justin Trudeau who is to blame for all this. There is an ON election in the offing; Ford is doing what's needed to make sure that he wins it.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Because he needed time to make sure that even the Liberal media understood that it was Justin Trudeau who is to blame for all this. There is an ON election in the offing; Ford is doing what's needed to make sure that he wins it.


And he rolls in as the savior?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> And he rolls in as the savior?


Someone has too...


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Someone has too...


Well, lets hope he succeeds on the first try. 


> Never do an enemy a small injury. Men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.
> 
> Niccolò Machiavelli


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, except PMJT isn't actually doing anything is he?



Well, he’s still vomiting platitudes…



Altair said:


> *Doug Ford* is the one making moves. Which begs the question, why didn't Doug Ford make moves before Biden called Trudeau?


You misspelled ‘Harper’ 😆 

Not sure you’re actually asking in earnest, or just trying to blatantly deflect attention from the PM emptying a full mag into his foot.

That’s fine, you keep cheering for JT and blaming the ills of the country on others.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well, he’s still vomiting platitudes…
> 
> 
> You misspelled ‘Harper’ 😆
> ...


One that lives in glass houses should not throw stones mate. 

But I do prefer this version of you than the blatantly dishonest liar version of you.


----------



## Spencer100 (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Injunction to end Windsor border protest granted following Ontario court hearing
> 
> 
> An injunction to remove protesters blocking traffic to the Ambassador Bridge International border crossing in Windsor, Ont. has been granted following an Ontario Superior Court of Justice hearing on Friday.
> ...


Well the hospitals are not ready yet. I know this.  They were told Saturday onward.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Feb 2022)

> It's weird how you take my opinion and Trudeaus opinion as one and the same.





> Why is that?



Two empty sets contain the same elements?


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Two empty sets contain the same elements?


Well, you would be very wrong as I have never said a word about the India protests.


----------



## RangerRay (11 Feb 2022)

The latest from Matt Gurney’s dispatches. 









						Matt Gurney: Ottawa will have to wait. Windsor is the crisis, now
					

Our problem has become America's problem, and America can't tolerate a neighbour that can't keep its problems on their side of the border.




					theline.substack.com
				






> Our problem has become America's problem, and America can't tolerate a neighbour that can't keep its problems on their side of the border.​


----------



## Furniture (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> One that lives in glass houses should not throw stones mate.
> 
> But I do prefer this version of you than the blatantly dishonest liar version of you.


Remember when you made a comment about someone else lipping off to a mod, then complaining you'd never get away with it?






EDIT: On a more serious note, if anyone is getting to the point they feel it's necessary to start name calling, or getting "heated", maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Remember when you made a comment about someone else lipping off to a mod, then complaining you'd never get away with it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, there is no name calling here. 

Simply stating facts. 

He lied about Canada not having enough vaccines for every eligible Canadian before September 2021.  He continues to lie about it, and regularly puts me on ignore and lies further about it when doing so. 

The fact he has refrained from doing so in the past 5 or so posts directed at me is a marked improvement and I complimented him on his progress.


----------



## Furniture (11 Feb 2022)

Protesters in New Zealand have moved beyond siege tactics, and straight into trench warfare... 

Faced with sprinklers, New Zealand anti-vaccine mandate protesters dig trenches


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> One that lives in glass houses should not throw stones mate.
> 
> But I do prefer this version of you than the blatantly dishonest liar version of you.



Chillaxin’ Panda thinks you need to stop being so angry with others…maybe take a hot soaking bath, or try some yummy bamboo for a snack…


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Feb 2022)

>Our problem has become America's problem, and America can't tolerate a neighbour that can't keep its problems on their side of the border.​
Pity we're not Mexico.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Chillaxin’ Panda thinks you need to stop being so angry with others…maybe take a hot soaking bath, or try some yummy bamboo for a snack…
> View attachment 68648


I give a compliment and people get all pissy. 

I guess I will stop giving compliments


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> It's weird how you take my opinion and Trudeaus opinion as one and the same.
> 
> Why is that?


I used your comment as a reference to Trudeau's comments about not negotiating while quoting Trudeau's comment about dialogue befitting democracy.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (11 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Protesters in New Zealand have moved beyond siege tactics, and straight into trench warfare...
> 
> Faced with sprinklers, New Zealand anti-vaccine mandate protesters dig trenches



". . . dug mini trenches across parliament grounds, after the sprinklers were turned . . . "

Just a spot of gardening, a very popular activity in NZ.


----------



## Altair (11 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I used your comment as a reference to Trudeau's comments about not negotiating while quoting Trudeau's comment about dialogue befitting democracy.


Ah.


----------



## Furniture (11 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> ". . . dug mini trenches across parliament grounds, after the sprinklers were turned . . . "
> 
> Just a spot of gardening, a very popular activity in NZ.


Tricksy Hobbitses... Shouldn't they be skipping off for second breakfast by now?


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Feb 2022)

Carson Jerema: Border blockades show Canadian incompetence is the biggest threat, not insurrection
					

Ontario declares state of emergency to deal with what is clearly a federal problem




					nationalpost.com
				




Hit the nail on the head


----------



## Booter (11 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> >Our problem has become America's problem, and America can't tolerate a neighbour that can't keep its problems on their side of the border.​
> Pity we're not Mexico.


That’s interesting. I wonder what the ripple out from this will be with their making sure of their security going forward 🤔


----------



## Remius (11 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Carson Jerema: Border blockades show Canadian incompetence is the biggest threat, not insurrection
> 
> 
> Ontario declares state of emergency to deal with what is clearly a federal problem
> ...


And I fear there will only be one way out of this mess.


----------



## armrdsoul77 (11 Feb 2022)

A Porno-Metal Song About Gay Cowboys Is Disrupting the Anti-Vax Trucker Convoy


----------



## JLB50 (11 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> >Our problem has become America's problem, and America can't tolerate a neighbour that can't keep its problems on their side of the border.​
> Pity we're not Mexico.


Looking at all the U.S. influence, I see it more as America making its problems Canada’s problems.


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2022)

Sovereign citizen influences enter the chat.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492353411584507906


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Carson Jerema: Border blockades show Canadian incompetence is the biggest threat, not insurrection
> 
> 
> Ontario declares state of emergency to deal with what is clearly a federal problem
> ...



The "we're nothing like Americans, they're  warmongers" crew calling on the US to send armed soldiers to Canadian soil to take care of the protestors. Awesome.


----------



## Spencer100 (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The "we're nothing like Americans, they're  warmongers" crew calling on the US to send armed soldiers to Canadian soil to take care of the protestors. Awesome.


I assume the irony is lost on them.


----------



## Spencer100 (12 Feb 2022)

No matter what side you land on...this kind of funny.  They are having a real dance party.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492291824362393605


----------



## Rd651 (12 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> For those not living in downtown Ottawa, here's a brief sample for what's been going on for the past week or so.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490473872445038592





MilEME09 said:


> Carson Jerema: Border blockades show Canadian incompetence is the biggest threat, not insurrection
> 
> 
> Ontario declares state of emergency to deal with what is clearly a federal problem
> ...


1


MilEME09 said:


> Carson Jerema: Border blockades show Canadian incompetence is the biggest threat, not insurrection
> 
> 
> Ontario declares state of emergency to deal with what is clearly a federal problem
> ...


100%


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Sovereign citizen influences enter the chat.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492353411584507906



Now where is my very official looking CF1 Hurt Feelings Report 

I used to keep one at my desk until it became faux pas...


----------



## Eaglelord17 (12 Feb 2022)

I would argue that blockading routes to prevent citizens from exercising their legal rights to do business and intimidate them into complying with their demands is violence. Just because they aren't physically touching you doesn't mean it isn't. If a Russian Navy fleet showed up outside Victoria and blockaded the port that would be a act of war, not protest.

The thing about having rule of law is that sometimes you do need to use violence to maintain it. Downtown Ottawa is one thing (and I still don't agree with blockading the routes of passage there), but blockading the borders is another. It is time to move the police in, and if they don't want to go peacefully, then slowly escalate up the force until they have all been arrested or dispersed. If the military must get involved than so be it. 

If we don't do something about it quickly, we are setting ourselves up for this to be the standard for the next round of protests for whatever cause decides to pop up.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Sovereign citizen influences enter the chat.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492353411584507906


Don't worry - I'm told it's *all* about the COVID measures ...

From the website listed on the "warrant" ...


> The Republic of Kanata is a sovereign nation established on January 15, 2015 under Common Law jurisdiction ...


More on the Republic of Kanata here - self-published bio of the guy behind it all here.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Don't worry - I'm told it's *all* about the COVID measures ...
> 
> From the website listed on the "warrant" ...
> 
> More on the Republic of Kanata here - self-published bio of the guy behind it all here.


Some people are absolutely fine with all of it.  Even cheerleading this mess.  

Meanwhile.  Interesting how the financial aspect of this works and is evolving.









						TD Bank to hand convoy funds to court as organizers turn to cryptocurrency
					

The Canadian financial institution has struck another blow against the attempts by the convoy group blockading Ottawa to collect on the millions of dollars it has solicited in online donations.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

For the record, this from Friday's news conference with Ontario's Premier et. al. ...


> On February 11, 2022, the Chief Justice of the Superior Court of Justice, Geoffrey B. Morawetz, made an order prohibiting impeding or blocking access to the Ambassador Bridge, an international bridge in Windsor, Ontario connecting Canada to the United States. The order is binding on all persons who have notice of it. It takes effect at 7:00pm, February 11, 2022, and remains in effect for ten days.
> 
> The order was granted at the request of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association and with the support of the Corporation of the City of Windsor. The Attorney General of Ontario, Doug Downey, intervened in the court case and expressed his support for the granting of the order.
> 
> The order authorizes the police to use powers of arrest and seizure to enforce it, but specifies that the police retain discretion as to the timing and manner of enforcement.


Court order attached.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> And he rolls in as the savior?


Yep! Their model is the 2015 Justin Trudeau/LPC campaign.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

The protest organizers may now be learning a lesson about virtue signalling without outside input/involvement ....


> As the Freedom Convoy continues to lockdown Parliament Hill and Ottawa's downtown core, some lead organizers are now choosing to bring more awareness to the Every Child Matters campaign, while calling for student walkouts to end mask mandates and COVID-19 restrictions in schools.
> 
> “Orange Shirt Day tomorrow. We’re doing Every Child Matters tomorrow, a moment of silence at (Parliament Hill) and everywhere else for the kids, a worldwide walkout for the kids, let’s go kids. Let’s go. Get those masks off. You don’t need them,” one of the convoy's organizers said Thursday in a video that was livestreamed on Facebook.
> 
> ...


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Sovereign citizen influences enter the chat.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492353411584507906



And when you check out the "murderbydecree" website, you are led to Kevin Annett. And here's a little info about him.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> And when you check out the "murderbydecree" website, you are led to Kevin Annett. And here's a little info about him.


That guy still around?  He was talking about the Queen eating indigenous kids years ago.

rabble.ca featured that guy prominently years ago.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> That guy still around?  He was talking about the Queen eating indigenous kids years ago.
> 
> rabble.ca featured that guy prominently years ago.



Amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you want to issue an arrest warrant for the PM and GG, isn't it??


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you want to issue an arrest warrant for the PM and GG, isn't it??


Imagine what the protest would be if

a) It was not organized by nutters

b) It wasn't blaring horns at all hours

c) It kept on a simple message of reducing restrictions and public health measures

d) It went the extra mile to keep the extremists out of it, or at least feeling extremely unwelcome

e) It didn't have a bunch of F**k Trudeau signs and the like. 

Could have been something.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Windsor bridge is seeing an increased police presence,  empty busses have been moved in.  If I were a betting man I would guess for arrests.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Imagine what the protest would be if
> 
> a) It was not organized by nutters
> 
> ...


That was never going to happen.  Just like the nutters on the left everyone wants to join the bandwagon and get their messages and manifestos out.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Amazing what comes out of the woodwork when you want to issue an arrest warrant for the PM and GG, isn't it??


I’m pretty sure he tried to issue an arrest for either the Catholic Church or the Protestant Church.  He hammered an arrest warrant to local church door lol.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> That was never going to happen.  Just like the nutters on the left everyone wants to join the bandwagon and get their messages and manifestos out.


Yeah, the ones who tend to organize these things tend to be those who are drinking their own koolaid on the fringes.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, the ones who tend to organize these things tend to be those who are drinking their own koolaid on the fringes.


When the arrests start, the organizers will be no where near that either.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> When the arrests start, the organizers will be no where near that either.


Wonder what they plan to do with the millions in bitcoin if this is shut down.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Wonder what they plan to do with the millions in bitcoin if this is shut down.


Buy PPE??   Just too really piss the organizers off....


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m pretty sure he tried to issue an arrest for either the Catholic Church or the Protestant Church.  He hammered an arrest warrant to local church door lol.


From his bio


> ... Forced Canadian government "apology" for Indian residential schools, July 2008
> 
> (...)
> 
> Led public protests and exorcisms at the Vatican, 2009, 2010 ...


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> From his bio



Does it say "was removed from ministry (placed on the Discontinued Service List – Disciplinary) in 1997 by The United Church of Canada" anywhere on it??


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Buy PPE??   Just too really piss the organizers off....


if wise they would organize into a Canadian PAC


----------



## lenaitch (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> When the arrests start, the organizers will be no where near that either.


One can only hope that an arrest/surveillance team is shadowing them and ready for when they try to bug out.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

*INITIAL REPORTS* (usual breaking news caveats attached) that police have started clearing the bridge - this from Windsor Police issued yesterday ....


> The Windsor Police Service wants to make demonstrators clearly aware that it is a criminal offence to obstruct, interrupt or interfere with the lawful use, enjoyment, or operation of property. The offence itself is known as mischief to property.
> 
> The unlawful act of blocking streets at and near the Ambassador Bridge is resulting in people being denied the lawful use, enjoyment and operation of their property and causing businesses to close down.
> 
> ...


... and this from Windsor Police Twitter this hour

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492488239214698496More from MSM here








						Windsor police issue message to demonstrators at border protest
					

Windsor police are notifying demonstrators involved in the border protest on Huron Church Road that those blocking streets, or assisting others in blocking streets may be committing a criminal offence.




					windsor.ctvnews.ca
				











						Authorities, protesters in stalemate over Ambassador Bridge blockade; arrest made
					

The vehicles are gone but protesters continue to linger at the Ambassador Bridge Saturday, keeping it closed for a fifth day.



					www.detroitnews.com
				











						Latest Canada updates: Police clear protesters occupying bridge
					

Canada news from February 12: Police clear protesters blocking bridge to the US after a court order to end the blockade.




					www.aljazeera.com
				







__





						Canadian truckers: Police move in on protesters blocking Ambassador Bridge: LIVE UPDATES
					

Dozens of police moved in on an ongoing trucker protest at the Ambassador Bridge connecting Detroit, Michigan to Windsor, Ontario, Saturday morning.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Could have been something.




-A  paralyzed down town core for 3+ weeks. 
-A dumbfounded government that looks incapable of handling this. 
-Police with a black eye over how its handled so far (perhaps unfair ridicule). 
-Ability to raise $10M in a week. 
-Copy cat protests across the country including shutting down an international trade routes (another one started an hour ago in Cornwall, only one lane open). 
-Copy cat protests in other countries where the Canadian flag is being used as an icon for anti mandates. 
-The need to call in police from the other side of the country. 


If people would have taken this more seriously this could have been summed up before it started, or mitigated a lot of damage and drama.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> -A  paralyzed down town core for 3+ weeks.
> -A dumbfounded government that looks incapable of handling this.
> -Police with a black eye over how its handled so far (perhaps unfair ridicule).
> -Ability to raise $10M in a week.
> ...


I agree.  This is SOMETHING.   But it could have been far more positive.  For the reasons you listed and for other other reasons as well. 

This is only ending one way.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some people are absolutely fine with all of it.  Even cheerleading this mess.


Some people in positions of authority really wanted this to turn into a mess and put it on display.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Some people in positions of authority really wanted this to turn into a mess and put it on display.



If the organizers (whoever they are) had had even a modicum of sense in their demands (e.g. end/reduce mandates as opposed to "overthrow the government"), someone in authority _might_ have met with them.  The mess is the result of too many "leaders" and too many conflicting demands.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Some people in positions of authority really wanted this to turn into a mess and put it on display.


Poillievres’s “keep going” tweets clearly shows that and Bergen’s “make this a PM issue” clearly shows that.

Trudeau doesn’t care.  He is not running again.  So for him he’ll do as much damage as he can on his way out.

The CPC should never have hitched their wagon to this.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Poillievres’s “keep going” tweets clearly shows that and Bergen’s “make this a PM issue” clearly shows that.
> 
> Trudeau doesn’t care.  He is not running again.  So for him he’ll do as much damage as he can on his way out.
> 
> The CPC should never have hitched their wagon to this.


He's totally running again. 

CPC seem intent on handing him victory on a silver platter.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> He's totally running again.
> 
> CPC seem intent on handing him victory on a silver platter.


Possible.  But my gut feeling is that he isn’t.  Freyland is being groomed and shielded from all this.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Ambassador bridge clearing going good so far.  Slow march.  Advance.  Stop.  Advance stop.  No arrests.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Possible.  But my gut feeling is that he isn’t.  Freyland is being groomed and shielded from all this.


There is no time to run a LPC leadership contest in a minority. He's running again.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ambassador bridge clearing going good so far.  Slow march.  Advance.  Stop.  Advance stop.  No arrests.


You mean the police can do their jobs and not crack skulls? 

Amazing! The tactical genius!


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> There is no time to run a LPC leadership contest in a minority. He's running again.


I can see that if the CPC keeps shooting itself in the foot.  I really really don’t want Trudeau again.   But I want a Polievre less after his recent shenanigans.  I hope they get a leader that makes sense.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> You mean the police can do their jobs and not crack skulls?
> 
> Amazing! The tactical genius!


Yes.  There seems to be fewer protestors now.  So not as many that want to take this as far as some were saying they wanted to.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Yes.  There seems to be fewer protestors now.  So not as many that want to take this as far as some were saying they wanted to.


Wow. 

Incredibly impressive. Seems like enforcing the law can work.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> You mean the police can do their jobs and not crack skulls?
> 
> Amazing! The tactical genius!


You shouldn't declare victory too soon, where have I seen that before hmmmm 🤔

I'm glad the flow of goods will start again, lets see how long it lasts 😎


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You shouldn't declare victory too soon, where have I seen that before hmmmm 🤔
> 
> I'm glad the flow of goods will start again, lets see how long it lasts 😎


It’s far from over.  But glad to see what needs to be done get started.


----------



## Quirky (12 Feb 2022)

So what's stopping them from coming back in a few days once the dust settles?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s far from over.  But glad to see what needs to be done get started.


Agreed, I am glad there isn't any fireworks.  

This has all the hallmarks of something that could become a protracted campaign.  We shall have to see.

My hope is it doesn't.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So what's stopping them from coming back in a few days once the dust settles?


Hopefully monitoring any talk of another protest and proactively stopping them from blocking traffic.









						Protests against Covid restrictions held in France and Netherlands
					

French police fire teargas in Paris, while convoy of vehicles brings The Hague’s city centre to standstill




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So what's stopping them from coming back in a few days once the dust settles?


I am quite certain they will post a large number of Officers at the crossing to ensure it remains clear for the time being.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I am quite certain they will post a large number of Officers at the crossing to ensure it remains clear for the time being.


that and the fact that most protesters don’t want arrests or charges on their record. Especially in Windsor where crossing the border is likely an important part of their lives.  Not being able to do that on a permanently basis might be an issue for some. 

So once the soft protesters leave you only have the hardcore ones left.

But Windsor is probably much easier to deal with than what is happening in the NCR.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> that and the fact that most protesters don’t want arrests or charges on their record. Especially in Windsor where crossing the border is likely an important part of their lives.  Not being able to do that on a permanently basis might be an issue for some.
> 
> So once the soft protesters leave you only have the hardcore ones left.
> 
> But Windsor is probably much easier to deal with than what is happening in the NCR.


Completely agree.


----------



## Haggis (12 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So what's stopping them from coming back in a few 9 1/2 days once the dust settles injunction expires?


FTFY.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Feb 2022)

I'm glad to the the RCMP/ other cops are all dressed alike in Windsor, including toques with regimental cap badges on them and even those are all the same.

It's almost like they're taking the piss out of the CAF


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> If the organizers (whoever they are) had had even a modicum of sense in their demands (e.g. end/reduce mandates as opposed to "overthrow the government"), someone in authority _might_ have met with them.  The mess is the result of too many "leaders" and too many conflicting demands.


Trudeau situated the estimate before the first truck hit the road.

There's no way he would have met with the truckers after the insinuations he made about them.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau situated the estimate before the first truck hit the road.
> 
> There's no way he would have met with the truckers after the insinuations he made about them.


Meeting with them would not have been the right political move.  Conservatives did and are regretting it now.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I can see that if the CPC keeps shooting itself in the foot.  I really really don’t want Trudeau again.   But I want a Polievre less after his recent shenanigans.  I hope they get a leader that makes sense.


His recent shenanigans is worse than the complete Trudeau show? That's impressive.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> His recent shenanigans is worse than the complete Trudeau show? That's impressive.


Why can't they both suck enough for him to vote for none of the above?


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> His recent shenanigans is worse than the complete Trudeau show? That's impressive.


Don’t care.   If PP becomes the leader he won’t get my vote.  I voted for him last time.  Will depend on who the leader of the CPC becomes.  If it’s him I’ll find some other place to park my vote.   

He’s actively encouraging this for political gain.  He’s just as bad as Trudeau doing the same thing.  The difference is that I think Trudeau is actually gaining more than PP is in the long run.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Why can't they both suck enough for him to vote for none of the above?


EXACTLY


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> EXACTLY


There is a weird line of thought that if people don't like Trudeau enough, that vote defaults to the CPC, regardless of who is leading it and what its policies are. 

That is really not how it works.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> There is a weird line of thought that if people don't like Trudeau enough, that vote defaults to the CPC, regardless of who is leading it and what its policies are.
> 
> That is really not how it works.


So purely anecdotal but still a barometer.

I’m in PPs riding.  He normally wins with about 20k votes.  Except two elections ago where the margin was about 3k.     So far my neighbours aren’t too impressed with the latest stunts he’s pulled.   My wife’s best friend and her husband are staunch conservatives and are active in the party and they have stated they will likely stay home election night if PP is the leader. 

Again anecdotal.  But I get the feeling that next election PP is actually going to have a fight on his hands in this riding. 

But campaigns matter and still lots of time.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Why can't they both suck enough for him to vote for none of the above?


They can, and he can. A third option wasn't framed in the comment.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> They can, and he can. A third option wasn't framed in the comment.


I also offered no support to either in the comment.


----------



## Altair (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> They can, and he can. A third option wasn't framed in the comment.


Nice that everyone is on the same page. 

A great day for Army.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Conservatives did and are regretting it now.



I think you're over estimating peoples openness to vote for other parties my friend. 

You may certainly be one of those types but I think you're kind is the exception. 

If we had a snap election next week we might see one or two MPs move a seat. 

I don't think this will impact the CPC one bit, same with the LPC. 

Canadians are either outraged and doubling down in their views, or its just entertainment.


----------



## lenaitch (12 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm glad to the the RCMP/ other cops are all dressed alike in Windsor, including toques with regimental cap badges on them and even those are all the same.
> 
> It's almost like they're taking the piss out of the CAF


I don't know about the RCMP but, aside from subtle differences, police uniforms in Ontario are all pretty much the same.  With the Public Order Units, there has been an effort to standardize things like uniforms and tactics as it is not uncommon that they work together during large events like this.  There's only so many POUs to go around.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I think you're over estimating peoples openness to vote for other parties my friend.
> 
> You may certainly be one of those types but I think you're kind is the exception.
> 
> ...


Not at all.  You are underestimating people’s openness to just stay home and hold their noses.

But yes you might be correct on how it’s affecting the parties.  But the leadership and specific individuals is another issue.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Feb 2022)

* Anti-mandate protest slows traffic at Seaway International Bridge*








						Anti-mandate protest slows traffic at Seaway International Bridge
					

CORNWALL, Ontario – On the morning of Saturday, Feb. 12, traffic on the Seaway International Bridge at the intersection of Brookdale Ave. and Water St. in Cornwall was slowed by…




					www.cornwallseawaynews.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> * Anti-mandate protest slows traffic at Seaway International Bridge*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just watched an interview with the Deputy Chief of Police of the Windsor Police Service.

Very well spoken man, and he confirmed no arrests have been made so far and their objective is to clear the demonstration in the most peaceful manner while respecting the rights of everyone, including the protesters, and have traffic flowing again across the border.  

Protesters have not been violent and protesters have been complying with police direction on the ground.  One truck had to be towed but that was due to a mechanical failure.

Would be nice if our elected officials of all colours were as well spoken and articulate as that particular gentleman.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

And now the former Chairman of the Ambassador Bridge/Former Finance Minister of Ontario is speaking with CBC.

He is deathly afraid of the trade/economic implications this is going to have with the United States. 

We talk about Vital Ground:  there it is


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> And now the former Chairman of the Ambassador Bridge/Former Finance Minister of Ontario is speaking with CBC.
> 
> He is deathly afraid of the trade/economic implications this is going to have with the United States.
> 
> We talk abour Vital Ground:  there it is


I saw it as well.  These actions will certainly convince some American companies to pull pin.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I saw it as well.  These actions will certainly convince some American companies to pull pin.


Unrelated but I did smirk a bit in watching the Governor of Michigan out in front of the press complaining about the economic impacts, especially after the entire Line 5 Fiasco.  🤣


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Thx God!

Michael Kempa just said on CBC what I and others have been saying for the past year:

The Security and Political Apparatus fundamentally failed in anticipating this and we now have upwards of over a million extremely angry and pissed off citizens who may be cleared off the streets of Ottawa and Windsor but are not going to go away and are mobilizing.  That anger is being harnessed by nefarious actors and this has now become a significant challenge to the State's authority and Rule of Law.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

And just watching CBC who have a reporter on the ground at the Ambassador Bridge.  She is doing a great job reporting on events and is right with the crowd, despite many taunts.

Other things I have noticed:

There are babies in strollers, children, old people, disabled people, there are a bunch of other groups as well. 

I just saw three older Sikh Men holding signs "Not Anti-Vaxx, Anti-Mandate"

I don't envy the Police in this very difficult situation.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2022)

Two stark opposite views of how this’ll go down:

1) ‘Sunny Ways’ coming back soon to a happy place in Canada near you!  Kumbaya, Namaste…


or…


2) The US drops its brotherly pretenses and drastically revises its supply chain to reduce susceptibility to untrustworthy foreign actors. (ie. Canada just signed it’s ‘deeply trusted neighbor’ death-warrant.


I think we’re going to see 2) very soon…and from a Dem administration to boot.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Two stark opposite views of how this’ll go down:
> 
> 1) ‘Sunny Ways’ coming back soon to a happy place in Canada near you!  Kumbaya, Namaste…
> View attachment 68658
> ...


I wonder if this will be impacted?









						Canadian Pacific closes US$31-billion Kansas City Southern acquisition deal
					

Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. has completed its acquisition of Kansas City Southern, paving the way for North America's only railroad that stretches across all three countries.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Because Americans can't have untrustworthy foreign actors owning critical infrastructure 🤔


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> That anger is being harnessed by nefarious actors and this has now become a significant challenge to the State's authority and Rule of Law.


the cheerleaders for this thing would disagree and refuse to see that despite all the  evidence and proof. 

But hey, TDS and stick it to the man.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2022)

Wouldn’t be surprised if it did.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Two stark opposite views of how this’ll go down:
> 
> 1) ‘Sunny Ways’ coming back soon to a happy place in Canada near you!  Kumbaya, Namaste…
> View attachment 68658
> ...


Democrats have always been more adverse to trade and more isolationist than the republicans on that sort of thing so not shocking.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> the cheerleaders for this thing would disagree and refuse to see that despite all the  evidence and proof.
> 
> But hey, TDS and stick it to the man.


But apparently a few days ago, according to you and a couple of others, it was just a small thing, nothing noteworthy and we shouldn't be concerned.

When others like myself said this was bigger than that and we should very much be concerned with this, we were labelled apologists.

So which is it exactly?

I've been anti-mandate pretty much since the beginning for this very reason.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> the cheerleaders for this thing would disagree and refuse to see that despite all the  evidence and proof.
> 
> But hey, TDS and stick it to the man.


Funny how TDS comes up now more often, but from counter-TDS folks…




Remius said:


> Democrats have always been more adverse to trade and more isolationist than the republicans on that sort of thing so not shocking.


An oft-quoted trope, but historical and pre-USMC Trade Agreement.

But I’m sure Biden’s call to Trudeau was in no way related to the PM shitting the proverbial leadership bed recently…


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Feb 2022)

There's still a bright side to all this.  "Case count porn" stories have been almost entirely displaced.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> But apparently a few days ago, according to you and a couple of others, it was just a small thing, nothing noteworthy and we shouldn't be concerned.
> 
> When others like myself said this was bigger than that and we should very much be concerned with this, we were labelled apologists.
> 
> ...


It wasn’t a small thing a few days ago and I never said so a few days ago.  I’ve been chiming on about it and getting called on it being asked for links and proof for over two weeks now and being told it’s only a few bad apples. 

When this was only a trucker thing it wasn’t.  But it got bigger.  And bad actors on the alt right got involved and co-opted this and are now using the anger and anti mandate folks as useful fools.  So yes, prior to this happening I freely admit to thinking it being smaller than anticipated.  

The apologists Here are the ones that gleefully cheer this on and side with the extremists.  They keep saying it’s only a few bad apples.  It’s a whole produce section that is rotten to the core. 

It doesn’t really matter any more.  I predict this will only end one way.  And we’ll still have a liberal gvt when the next election comes around.


----------



## brihard (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> But apparently a few days ago, according to you and a couple of others, it was just a small thing, nothing noteworthy and we shouldn't be concerned.
> 
> When others like myself said this was bigger than that and we should very much be concerned with this, we were labelled apologists.
> 
> ...



Ducking in only to say this: we were wrong.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> Ducking in only to say this: we were wrong.


Yep. Agreed.


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Feb 2022)

Been offline all day ... Looks like I missed alot.

I'm just glad to see this ending without violence.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Been offline all day ... Looks like I missed alot.
> 
> I'm just glad to see this ending without violence.


So far so good but it isn’t over.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2022)

Lessons Learned should at least include assessment of the apparent _laissez-faire_ attitude of National-level intelligence assessment (hey, what advice was our shiny new NSIA giving the PM btw? 🤔) and the key factors relating to the rapid infil of now-acknowledged bad actors.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Been offline all day ... Looks like I missed alot.
> 
> I'm just glad to see this ending without violence.


Windsor?


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Windsor?



Ya I thought that was ending with the fuzz dispersing the crowd.  I may be wrong... Just what I gathered from here


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ya I thought that was ending with the fuzz dispersing the crowd.  I may be wrong... Just what I gathered from here


They were.  Most of the trucks and encampment is gone but people are still slipping in.


----------



## meni0n (12 Feb 2022)

There are no million people doing this. It's a few thousand vehicles that just keep driving around Ontario. Downtown Ottawa during the week is mostly empty and fills up during the week. And even when it does, it's at most a few thousand people. Even if this movement is 50-100k, it represents a very small minority of the Canadian population. The only way to resolve this is, is to show that there are real and swift consequences, and unfortunately  it might come to violence. If the police applied the same amount of force that they used during the G20 protests or the enforcement of the injunction in BC, this wouldn't be so out of control.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> There are no million people doing this. It's a few thousand vehicles that just keep driving around Ontario. Downtown Ottawa during the week is mostly empty and fills up during the week. And even when it does, it's at most a few thousand people. Even if this movement is 50-100k, it represents a very small minority of the Canadian population. The only way to resolve this is, is to show that there are real and swift consequences, and unfortunately  it might come to violence. If the police applied the same amount of force that they used during the G20 protests or the enforcement of the injunction in BC, this wouldn't be so out of control.


The problem is that we have a shortage of Peace, Order and good government at the moment.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> ... That anger is being *harnessed by nefarious actors and this has now become a significant challenge to the State's authority and Rule of Law*.


... and grown more than many expected (and could have), hence the challenge.


----------



## meni0n (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The problem is that we have a shortage of Peace, Order and good government at the moment.


There was a somewhat large counter-protest in Ottawa today. At some point, when weather get warmer, these types of counter protests are going to grown bigger. Biggest fear is that at some point the people of Ottawa will have enough and take things into their own hands since the police are refusing to do their job.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> There was a somewhat large counter-protest in Ottawa today. At some point, when weather get warmer, these types of counter protests are going to grown bigger. Biggest fear is that at some point the people of Ottawa will have enough and take things into their own hands since the police are refusing to do their job.


I suspect you aren’t wrong. I didn’t see the counter protest.  But I did see that guy a few days ago block a truck and the police had to talk him down.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Protesters tear down fencing around the National War Memorial
					

A group of people removed the fencing surrounding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the National War Memorial Saturday afternoon, as the demonstration against COVID-19 mandates continued in downtown Ottawa.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




I guess we’ll see how long it takes for this to be used as a urinal again…


----------



## Haggis (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Protesters tear down fencing around the National War Memorial
> 
> 
> A group of people removed the fencing surrounding the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the National War Memorial Saturday afternoon, as the demonstration against COVID-19 mandates continued in downtown Ottawa.
> ...


It likely won't be. There were a lot of maroon berets in the disassembly crew shown on the news.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> It likely won't be. There were a lot of maroon berets in the disassembly crew shown on the news.


Saw the same video - lot of other berets, too.  Let's see what happens now that (what looks like) vets are there.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> There are no million people doing this. It's a few thousand vehicles that just keep driving around Ontario. Downtown Ottawa during the week is mostly empty and fills up during the week. And even when it does, it's at most a few thousand people. Even if this movement is 50-100k, it represents a very small minority of the Canadian population. The only way to resolve this is, is to show that there are real and swift consequences, and unfortunately  it might come to violence. If the police applied the same amount of force that they used during the G20 protests or the enforcement of the injunction in BC, this wouldn't be so out of control.


I'm certain similar things were written in 1923 during the Beer Hall Pusch:  "just a couple of thousand people causing a scene, nothing to see here"


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm certain similar things were written in 1923 during the Beer Hall Pusch:  "just a couple of thousand people causing a scene, nothing to see here"


Federal agencies have been warning the government about the threat from right wing groups. They’ve managed to harness otherwise good people into doing this sort of stuff.  Will be a lot of after action reviews for years to come.


----------



## mariomike (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> the cheerleaders for this thing would disagree and refuse to see that despite all the  evidence and proof.
> 
> But hey, TDS and stick it to the man.



There was cheering in Kingston today.  

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492590186865340421


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

To be completely fair and for the record, missed this from the original web site/organizers of Canada Unity earlier this week (text also attached) ...








						M.O.U.
					

NEWS RELEASE Notice of Formal Withdrawal of MOU by Canada Unity Ottawa  February 8 2022 – For Immediate ReleaseIt has come to the attention of Canada Unity that the Memorandum Of Understandin…



					canada-unity.com
				



Glass half full:  they're distancing themselves from the original call for an overthrow of the Canadian government.
Glass half empty:  document's still out there for now, so let's see how this message percolates through the crowds.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> There was cheering in Kingston today.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492590186865340421


This is the worry. People will start taking matters into their own hands.  Glad it went well there.

There were 2000 counter protesters that marched in ottawa today. They made sure to stay away from the protest area which is good.  But how long before a mob decides that leadership at various levels aren’t doing their jobs?


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2022)

While fuel, food, alcohol, bouncy castles, generators, giant video walls, porta-potties and a full blown stage have all made it through the Ottawa Police barricades, today they did successfully interdict one piece of contraband.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492639882250006528


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile, on the recce front...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492618569481428994


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> While fuel, food, alcohol, bouncy castles, generators, giant video walls, porta-potties and a full blown stage have all made it through the Ottawa Police barricades, today they did successfully interdict one piece of contraband.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492639882250006528


Don’t forget the hot tubs.


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2022)

See. fifty years from now, this will all be archived somewhere, and some researcher is going to pull out this thread and use it as an example of shitposting, since clearly no police force could ever have let all that stuff through.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> There was a somewhat large counter-protest in Ottawa today. At some point, when weather get warmer, these types of counter protests are going to grown bigger. Biggest fear is that at some point the people of Ottawa will have enough and take things into their own hands since the police are refusing to do their job.


Are you talking about Lansdowne Park this afternoon?


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2022)

Taking a lesson from the CAF?  Into the third weekend, and the Ottawa Police are pleased to announce that they've stood up a new HQ.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492669881627598849


----------



## meni0n (12 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm certain similar things were written in 1923 during the Beer Hall Pusch:  "just a couple of thousand people causing a scene, nothing to see here"


Believe whatever you want. I am in Ottawa and this is how it is. It's a small minority that are just loud. Most blockades at the border in Ontario were under 100 vehicles. Look at the pictures of parliament hill filled with people on Canada Day and then compare to now, they can't even get enough to fill the field in front of parliament. People are just bad at doing subjective analysis. Even on weekends, there just about 1000 vehicles, even if it seems like a lot, it's not compared to the population of Ottawa or Canada. This is pretty much the amount of people that voted for the PPC all in one place.


----------



## Remius (12 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Believe whatever you want. I am in Ottawa and this is how it is. It's a small minority that are just loud. Most blockades at the border in Ontario were under 100 vehicles. Look at the pictures of parliament hill filled with people on Canada Day and then compare to now, they can't even get enough to fill the field in front of parliament. People are just bad at doing subjective analysis. Even on weekends, there just about 1000 vehicles, even if it seems like a lot, it's not compared to the population of Ottawa or Canada. This is pretty much the amount of people that voted for the PPC all in one place.


Trucks are definitely force multipliers.


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2022)

This all reads like an initial misjudgement on the part of OPS, assuming "business as usual: they'll drive in, blow their horns, then leave".  (In good military terms, most likely COA.)  So let them tool around Parliament Hill for the day; by Sunday morning... Monday January 31st at the absolute latest they'll clear out and be gone.

Setting up to stay, with a small number of bad faith actors embedded within, was either the most dangerous COA or possibly a throwaway, and thus not considered in plans.  (That certain groups had announced such plans in the past is easy to point to in hindsight; but such claims have been made often enough that they tend to get lost in the noise.)

And bouncy castles, hot tubs, stages and pancake breakfasts?  Most ludicrous COA.


----------



## mariomike (12 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> And we’ll still have a liberal gvt when the next election comes around.



Be interesting to see how the next one goes.


Remius said:


> Trucks are definitely force multipliers.





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492237836405248002


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

No need to look here, completely normal for an Assistant Deputy Minister in the intelligence community to condemn the Ottawa Police.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492690798147735553


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No need to look here, completely normal for an Assistant Deputy Minister in the intelligence community to condemn the Ottawa Police.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492690798147735553


Sounds like a little Napoleon who doesn't have his finger on the pulse.  You would think the ADM of CSE would have a bit more SA on the situation and security threats.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No need to look here, completely normal for an Assistant Deputy Minister in the intelligence community to condemn the Ottawa Police.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492690798147735553


He's got a point as a citizen of Ottawa. This is how most of the city feels like right now. The police completely abandoned the people that are paying their salaries. Just today some examples, people putting handcuffs on doors of a building and testing how it holds the door from the inside, police response is.... not our problem. Unmasked people overrunning a store and threatening staff, police response is... you should close but we're not coming to help. And this is after Sloly said they're going to focus the full force of the police on making sure neighborhoods around the protest are safe.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

> Setting up to stay, with a small number of bad faith actors embedded within, was either the most dangerous COA or possibly a throwaway, and thus not considered in plans.



Hard to miss after all the protests over the past couple of years ("mostly peaceful", mostly "very fine people") in which small cadres of perennial sh!t-disturbers showed up to break things and set fires.  

"It can't happen here."


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Sounds like a little Napoleon who doesn't have his finger on the pulse.  You would think the ADM of CSE would have a hit more SA on the situation and security threats.


Or perhaps he does, and can't understand the ongoing OPS failure


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hard to miss after all the protests over the past couple of years ("mostly peaceful", mostly "very fine people") in which small cadres of perennial sh!t-disturbers showed up to break things and set fires.
> 
> "It can't happen here."


Inertia is a hell of a drug.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

What puzzles me is that with all the drum-beating in the media - which has to be fed by reports from authorities if it is to be taken seriously - over right-wing extremism, how'd they miss it?  Or was the drum-beating just performance theatre?


----------



## Furniture (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> He's got a point as a citizen of Ottawa. This is how most of the city feels like right now. The police completely abandoned the people that are paying their salaries. Just today some examples, people putting handcuffs on doors of a building and testing how it holds the door from the inside, police response is.... not our problem. Unmasked people overrunning a store and threatening staff, police response is... you should close but we're not coming to help. And this is after Sloly said they're going to focus the full force of the police on making sure neighborhoods around the protest are safe.


As a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere. 

The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> As a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere.
> 
> The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. *Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.*


Bingo!

This is the ADM of CSE and he is having a meltdown on Twitter.  Doesn't seem like someone I want in charge of my National Security when SHTF.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

Because the Americans are now all over this, here is Bill Maher's take.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492364416997801990








						Bill Maher Says “Freedom Convoy” Is About More Than Just Vaccines On HBO’s ‘Real Time’
					

“We need more social distancing between capitalism and democracy,” said panelist Vivek Ramaswamy.




					decider.com


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> sAs a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere.
> 
> The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.


Now I have to disagree. OPS were warned that these protesters will not leave. They claimed they spoke with the organizers and they assured by them that they were going to leave after a few days, which didn't happen. OPS has 1387 sworn members, which Sloly claims are all on duty, with no one taking any time off. There are no being augmented by at least 200 officers. Taking into account some operational staff, let's say 60% are out on the street. So in theory there should be about what 800 officers deployed on the street. Take half of those and  they should have about 400 officers available for downtown.  During the week, there are less than 400 vehicles and hardcore protesters left downtown. Are you telling me that somehow 400 officers are not enough to properly subdue a 400-500 spread out protest? A coordinated force would have no issue controlling and arresting such as crowd using whatever tools they have in their arsenal, ie CS gas, forming a line and arresting people as they go along the street etc,

Also, what budget cuts are you talking about? OPS budget has been increased every year at least for the past few years.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Now I have to disagree. OPS were warned that these protesters will not leave. They claimed they spoke with the organizers and they assured by them that they were going to leave after a few days, which didn't happen. OPS has 1387 sworn members, which Sloly claims are all on duty, with no one taking any time off. There are no being augmented by at least 200 officers. Taking into account some operational staff, let's say 60% are out on the street. So in theory there should be about what 800 officers deployed on the street. Take half of those and  they should have about 400 officers available for downtown.  During the week, there are less than 400 vehicles and hardcore protesters left downtown. Are you telling me that somehow 400 officers are not enough to properly subdue a 400-500 spread out protest? A coordinated force would have no issue controlling and arresting such as crowd using whatever tools they have in their aresnal, ie CS gas, forming a line and arresting people as they go along the street etc,
> 
> Also, what budget cuts are you talking about? OPS budget has been increased every year at least for the past few years.


My heavens, I didn't know the Signal Corps produced so many tactical geniuses.  🤣


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> My heavens, I didn't know the Signal Corps produced so many tactical geniuses.  🤣


Hey, let's ignore facts and try to delegitimize my opinion based on what branch I used to serve with. Taking a page out of the freedumb convoy nazis and racists right?


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Now I have to disagree. OPS were warned that these protesters will not leave. They claimed they spoke with the organizers and they assured by them that they were going to leave after a few days, which didn't happen. OPS has 1387 sworn members, which Sloly claims are all on duty, with no one taking any time off. There are no being augmented by at least 200 officers. Taking into account some operational staff, let's say 60% are out on the street. So in theory there should be about what 800 officers deployed on the street. Take half of those and  they should have about 400 officers available for downtown.  During the week, there are less than 400 vehicles and hardcore protesters left downtown. Are you telling me that somehow 400 officers are not enough to properly subdue a 400-500 spread out protest? A coordinated force would have no issue controlling and arresting such as crowd using whatever tools they have in their aresnal, ie CS gas, forming a line and arresting people as they go along the street etc,
> 
> Also, what budget cuts are you talking about? OPS budget has been increased every year at least for the past few years.



The best time to move in on protesters/rioters/occupiers is around 0300hrs when most people are away or sleeping, especially reporters


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Bingo!
> 
> This is the ADM of CSE and he is having a meltdown on Twitter.  Doesn't seem like someone I want in charge of my National Security when SHTF.


You should head down there and protest in front of the building to let them know. Maybe try to get inside and talk to the CSE commissioner about this. I'm sure they'll be extremely glad to get your professional opinion on this and act on it without delay.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Hey, let's ignore facts and try to delegitimize my opinion based on what branch I used to serve with. Taking a page out of the freedumb convoy nazis and racists right?


Lets look at your facts then shall we:

Ottawa Police are a Municipal Police Force, on top of this Freedom Convoy, they are still required to maintain service elsewhere.  So there are competing demands for their service,  many competing demands.

Your numbers assume that every Police Officer is working at all times.  We know that this is impossible, well at least I hope you would know seeing as how your Military and you should realize that isn't sustainable.

Then you've also got the fact that if you paid attention to sources other than the cameras pointing at the very high profile spectacle happening on Parliament Hill, you would know that the protesters are actually dispersed and there are multiple camps all around the city.

You've also vastly overstated the capabilities of the Police Forces to deal with these protests as there are so many happening right now and there are only so many public order units aka (the professionals) to deal with these incidents.  

While every single public order unit in Ontario was busy trying to deal with the Ambassador Bridge Blockade, copy cat protests were springing up elswhere, like Cornwall for instance.  Cornwall and Ottawa are both around 8 hours from Windsor so once the Cops are finished there they will need to be moved, this requires planning and resources.

You can already see that the protests have stretched resources thin and I'm sorry but the cupboards are bare.  

If you think there is an easy solution to this, keep thinking that but it's just not true.  

The Oka Crisis lasted for 3 months and that was after the Army Mobilized.  The size of that event pales in comparison to what we are seeing here.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Lets look at your facts then shall we:
> 
> Ottawa Police are a Municipal Police Force, on top of this Freedom Convoy, they are still required to maintain service elsewhere.  So there are competing demands for their service,  many competing demands.
> 
> ...


My numbers are totally fine since Sloly said all officers are working full time with no time off, so doing 12 hour shifts. My numbers also take into account half of the officers on duty and half officers away elsewhere on calls in town and also including all the extra OPP and RCMP officers that were sent.

Do the math, there are a minimum of 300 officers available to take care of the protest downtown. Crime did not magically go up in Ottawa that they somehow need hundreds of extra officers patrolling the city. The OPS have been virtually invisible downtown and in surrounding neighborhoods.

For Ottawa, there is only one major protest and it is happening on Rideau street in front of Parliament. The other staging areas are way too far away from anything, especially Coventry. Like I previously said, during the week, it's mostly the hardcore protesters that are left downtown, at most 300-400. Even if they start going block by block in force, arresting protesters and putting them on buses, this will not take too long to resolve.  A coordinated force will have no issues dispersing this crowd at night.

What is moving police resources around the province have anything to do with anything? RCMP just flew hundreds of officers to BC to enforce an injunctions against indigenous protesters with no issues, so I don't see what the problem is here? There are already hundreds of extra officers that were sent to augment the OPS. This can be dealt with in one night. Once you show that there are real consequences to actions and that force would be used against illegally occupying streets in Ottawa, most protesters will not come back. It is an easy solution, there needs to be a show of force and let the protesters know that there are consequences with disregarding the law. Right now, they are emboldened because there have been no repercussions to their actions so they just keep pushing the envelope to see how far they can go.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> My numbers are totally fine since Sloly said all officers are working full time with no time off, so doing 12 hour shifts. My numbers also take into account half of the officers on duty and half officers away elsewhere on calls in town and also including all the extra OPP and RCMP officers that were sent.
> 
> Do the math, there are a minimum of 300 officers available to take care of the protest downtown. Crime did not magically go up in Ottawa that they somehow need hundreds of extra officers patrolling the city. The OPS have been virtually invisible downtown and in surrounding neighborhoods.
> 
> ...


If it could have been dealt with in one night it would have been 😉


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> As a citizen of Ottawa I disagree, the OPS made a mistake in assuming the protesters would fizzle out after a weekend, since then they have done what they can based on their numbers, and the need for resources to be sent elsewhere.
> 
> The Chief made it clear early on that the OPS didn't have the staff to deal with this problem. Getting upset at the OPS now, after years of cuts, and mismanagement is like complaining that your $10 fire extinguisher wasn't up to the task of putting out a 3 alarm fire.


Years of cuts?  The police budget has not been cut.  They don’t always get the increase they want but budgets have not been cut in a long time.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Lets look at your facts then shall we:
> 
> Ottawa Police are a Municipal Police Force, on top of this Freedom Convoy, they are still required to maintain service elsewhere.  So there are competing demands for their service,  many competing demands.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting then that the Army is now the solution?  Because you just made a strong case for that.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The best time to move in on protesters/rioters/occupiers is around 0300hrs when most people are away or sleeping, especially reporters


And wait until a Monday or Tuesday.  During the week the crowds are not at all like the weekend.  Plus there are less kids.  Still some kids but at some points if they keep bringing kids they will likely get caught up in this.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Bingo!
> 
> This is the ADM of CSE and he is having a meltdown on Twitter.  Doesn't seem like someone I want in charge of my National Security when SHTF.


I would hardly call that a meltdown.

And he’s not THE adm of CSE.  There is no such thing.

he’s the Assistant Deputy Minister and Senior Advisor for People, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion. So you can rest easy.  He’s not in charge of national security when SHTF.

That being said.  It’s not cool to post that sort of thing while identifying with that org.


----------



## lenaitch (13 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The best time to move in on protesters/rioters/occupiers is around 0300hrs when most people are away or sleeping, especially reporters


Good idea from the perspective of lower numbers, physiological ebb (circadian rhythm and all that).  Really bad idea in terms of visibility, sight lines, lighting, etc. if it turns into a melee.  There is much greater potential for people to react to what they think they see.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Arrests made in windsor


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492846129016356869


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## lenaitch (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> My numbers are totally fine since Sloly said all officers are working full time with no time off, so doing 12 hour shifts. My numbers also take into account half of the officers on duty and half officers away elsewhere on calls in town and also including all the extra OPP and RCMP officers that were sent.
> 
> Do the math, there are a minimum of 300 officers available to take care of the protest downtown. Crime did not magically go up in Ottawa that they somehow need hundreds of extra officers patrolling the city. The OPS have been virtually invisible downtown and in surrounding neighborhoods.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to argue your numbers; I'm not there, but I'm just watching the events in Windsor.  They are currently clearing another stretch of Huron Church Rd.  A relatively unencumbered area with defined boundaries and concrete barricades (set up yesterday).  There are, in my estimation only, well over a hundred police officers just what I can see.  There have been some arrests - each consuming several officers.  "Put them on buses" - okay, several more officers.  Anyone arrested has to be processed.

Some folks might want to dismiss children getting caught up in any public order action; I can assure you the police would not.

Ottawa is roughly 4x the area of Toronto with, what, 35% of the population and about very roughly 35% of size of police service.  Chief Sloly says he can't get the extra numbers to do what he needs to do.  Windsor, which started much later, seems to have been able to amass what they need rather quickly.  Curious.  There are only so many tactical and POUs around.   I'd have more faith in the Chief's tactical leadership if the OPS and partners were able to occupy or hold one single area of the city; maybe the War Memorial, don't know - pick one.


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Feb 2022)

Personal opinion:

I think almost everyone wants the same things:

1. To maintain Canadians' hard-won freedom to protest and say rude things to and about the government ~ without infringing on the rights and freedoms of others; and

2. To being these blockades and occupations to an end without anyone being injured.

I think Ottawa Police Chief Sloly has been trying to do both. How well he has managed and how much better (or worse) he might have done is open for debate ... but not by me because I have nothing useful to offer.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not going to argue your numbers; I'm not there, but I'm just watching the events in Windsor.  They are currently clearing another stretch of Huron Church Rd.  A relatively unencumbered area with defined boundaries and concrete barricades (set up yesterday).  There are, in my estimation only, well over a hundred police officers just what I can see.  There have been some arrests - each consuming several officers.  "Put them on buses" - okay, several more officers.  Anyone arrested has to be processed.
> 
> Some folks might want to dismiss children getting caught up in any public order action; I can assure you the police would not.
> 
> Ottawa is roughly 4x the area of Toronto with, what, 35% of the population and about very roughly 35% of size of police service.  Chief Sloly says he can't get the extra numbers to do what he needs to do.  Windsor, which started much later, seems to have been able to amass what they need rather quickly.  Curious.  There are only so many tactical and POUs around.   I'd have more faith in the Chief's tactical leadership if the OPS and partners were able to occupy or hold one single area of the city; maybe the War Memorial, don't know - pick one.


That’s the part I don’t quite get.  They could in theory occupy various spaces and hold.  Heck even near their re supply areas that are well known.  

I don’t know but the city is rapidly losing whatever confidence they have in him.


----------



## kev994 (13 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not going to argue your numbers; I'm not there, but I'm just watching the events in Windsor.  They are currently clearing another stretch of Huron Church Rd.  A relatively unencumbered area with defined boundaries and concrete barricades (set up yesterday).  There are, in my estimation only, well over a hundred police officers just what I can see.  There have been some arrests - each consuming several officers.  "Put them on buses" - okay, several more officers.  Anyone arrested has to be processed.
> 
> Some folks might want to dismiss children getting caught up in any public order action; I can assure you the police would not.
> 
> Ottawa is roughly 4x the area of Toronto with, what, 35% of the population and about very roughly 35% of size of police service.  Chief Sloly says he can't get the extra numbers to do what he needs to do.  Windsor, which started much later, seems to have been able to amass what they need rather quickly.  Curious.  There are only so many tactical and POUs around.   I'd have more faith in the Chief's tactical leadership if the OPS and partners were able to occupy or hold one single area of the city; maybe the War Memorial, don't know - pick one.


There are a bunch of cities near Windsor that have their own police forces; I saw some London Police toques on the Windsor videos. I don’t think Ottawa has that luxury. Also, Ottawa isn’t blocking international trade, they’re just annoying.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I would hardly call that a meltdown.
> 
> And he’s not THE adm of CSE.  There is no such thing.
> 
> ...


I know he's not the Chief of CSE, that was a typo, and I know what ADMs do. That being said, and you can read his linkedin profile:



			https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ca.linkedin.com/in/artur-wilczynski-3a033498&ved=2ahUKEwilmrK5gf31AhUhCTQIHdnwDD8QFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0sFlx0-JEY3cellz4EkX2r
		


He sure sounds like an expert, getting in twitter war with Randy Hillier.


----------



## Altair (13 Feb 2022)

Looks like the Windsor police have finished clearing the bridge. 

RIP all the protestors who were killed and maimed by the police during this skull cracking operation.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I know he's not the Chief of CSE, that was a typo, and I know what ADMs do. That being said, and you can read his linkedin profile:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone getting into any conversation with Randy Hillier is going to sound like an expert by comparison.


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Looks like the Windsor police have finished clearing the bridge.
> 
> RIP all the protestors who were killed and maimed by the police during this skull cracking operation.



Did it turn violent ?


----------



## Gunnar (13 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Did it turn violent ?


I think he just forgot his </sarcasm> tags


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Anyone getting into any conversation with Randy Hillier is going to sound like an expert by comparison.


That's pretty funny 🤣 and true.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Because the Americans are now all over this, here is Bill Maher's take.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492364416997801990
> ...



Great clip. To paraphrase, our Prime minister thinks there are Canadian citizens takeing up space due to unacceptable views so we need to make a make a choice whether  we tolerate these people or not. 

I don't recall hearing anything of the sort from him when discussing bringing ISIS members back to Canada. People who were sawing heads off women and children, or feeding pieces of babies to starving mothers for a joke.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No need to look here, completely normal for an Assistant Deputy Minister in the intelligence community to condemn the Ottawa Police.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492690798147735553



Consistent with GoC Gaslighting Policy…at least the ADM is


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Great clip. To paraphrase, our Prime minister thinks there are Canadian citizens takeing up space due to unacceptable views so we need to make a make a choice whether  we tolerate these people or not.
> 
> I don't recall hearing anything of the sort from him when discussing bringing ISIS members back to Canada. People who were sawing heads off women and children, or feeding pieces of babies to starving mothers for a joke.


The language the Prime Minister has been using is so bloody divisive and Bill is right, he does sound like Hitler.


----------



## lenaitch (13 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> There are a bunch of cities near Windsor that have their own police forces; I saw some London Police toques on the Windsor videos. I don’t think Ottawa has that luxury. Also, Ottawa isn’t blocking international trade, they’re just annoying.


Proximity helps, sure, but I see a lot of OPP and RCMP and they had to come from somewhere.  Even OPP personnel from their West Region are scattered all over.  In the initial stage of Ottawa, I saw TPS members.  Heck,  Ottawa has been going on for, what, three weeks.  I can't see travel time being the issue.  They could be there by now even if they took VIA.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The language the Prime Minister has been using is so bloody divisive and Bill is right, he does sound like Hitler.


Absolutely. His comments wouldn't be out of place in the Reichstag Speech.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Ottawa police have just discovered an incredible new concept.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492931094433439752


----------



## McG (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> If it could have been dealt with in one night it would have been 😉


Had the government decided to act in the middle of the work week, they might have been able to do it in one night. Instead they decided the time to act was going into the weekend when all the Friday to Sunday protesters were coming on station. Having failed to gain the initiative over the weekend, it will now be harder to achieve even in the work week.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

McG said:


> Had the government decided to act in the middle of the work week, they might have been able to do it in one night. Instead they decided the time to act was going into the weekend when all the Friday to Sunday protesters were coming on station. Having failed to gain the initiative over the weekend, it will now be harder to achieve even in the work week.


Agreed, which goes back to the point they massively under-estimated and were dismissive of the popularity this movement had.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Intelligence reports were clear.  But without action, even perfect intelligence is useless.


----------



## Booter (13 Feb 2022)

I’m fairly certain that had it been Toronto (or any other city) first it would have been similar. They had the benefit of seeing Ottawas response fail so they were able to cut some things they would have all tried first.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Counter-protesters block convoy vehicles on Ottawa streets
					

Residents frustrated with the 17-day "Freedom Convoy" occupation in downtown Ottawa took to the streets on Sunday, blocking vehicle convoys from joining hundreds of trucks, vehicles and people on Parliament Hill.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




There is going to be more of this if people think nothing is being done.


----------



## Haggis (13 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Intelligence reports were clear.  But without action, even perfect intelligence is useless.


dapaterson for the Win!

I noted earlier in this thread how the police and media all downplayed and minimized the size and scope of the event in Ottawa, despite clear indicators from the organizers of their intent. That set the conditions for the public to expect a limited protest action, easily dispersed either voluntarily or with minimal police effort.

The second order effect was for like minded factions to seize the initiative gained by the success of the Ottawa convoy and execute copycat events across Canada.  Some have posited that decisive action to end this became "necessary" only when supplies stopped flowing to the Liberal strongholds in the Golden Horseshoe, their Vital Ground, coupled with Biden's intervention in the politics of Canada.


----------



## lenaitch (13 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> I’m fairly certain that had it been Toronto (or any other city) first it would have been similar. They had the benefit of seeing Ottawas response fail so they were able to cut some things they would have all tried first.


If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (13 Feb 2022)

I've been watching windsor live streams. They did clear out all the protestors this morning, but then more came back. Police have backed off.
Not sure if border will reopen tomorrow.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

Well done, Ex-TPS Chief Blair!  

Here’s your “Team Trudeau- Top Gaslighter” gold medal.🥇


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well done, Ex-TPS Chief Blair!
> 
> Here’s your “Team Trudeau- Top Gaslighter” gold medal.🥇


Isn't it great when those that are supposed to be the ones remaining calm under pressure have public meltdowns on social media?

The literal Minister of Emergency Preparedness!


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> I noted earlier in this thread how the police and media all downplayed and minimized the size and scope of the event in Ottawa, despite clear indicators from the organizers of their intent.


The over/under estimation on the convoy/crowd size took center stage pretty quick. The numbers game is always low hanging fruit for both sides whether it's a protest or presidential inauguration.

It also wasn't just the police and media passing this off as a big nothing burger.

From Brockville to Kingston to Northbay I'm seeing more Canadian flags than I do on Canada day. Obviously they're out there but I haven't heard anyone come across as anti-vaccine in my travels. I've noticed alot of anti-mandate comments and conversations though, and there seems to be a lot of anger towards the Prime Minister. Lots of "the fringe" or "we the fringe" stickers on vehicles.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Agreed, which goes back to the point they massively under-estimated and were dismissive of the popularity this movement had.


No idea what popularity you're referring to. Canada's population is 38 million. These protests have been less than 1% of Canada's population. Just because they're loud doesn't mean there's a lot of them or they are popular.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> No idea what popularity you're referring to. Canada's population is 38 million. These protests have been less than 1% of Canada's population. Just because they're loud doesn't mean there's a lot of them or they are popular.











						46% of Canadians sympathize with trucker convoy, but many disagree with their tactics: poll - National | Globalnews.ca
					

An Ipsos poll published Thursday showed that nearly 46 per cent of Canadians sympathize with the frustration of the trucker convoy protesters.




					globalnews.ca
				




Not nearly as black and white as you've made it.

As well, if you look at places like Afghanistan for instance, less than 1% of Afghans are members of the Taliban.  

A small number of people can have outsized effect in the right circumstances.

The Beer Hall Pusch which I alluded to earlier had less than 2000 active participants.


----------



## Furniture (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The over/under estimation on the convoy/crowd size took center stage pretty quick. The numbers game is always low hanging fruit for both sides whether it's a protest or presidential inauguration.
> 
> It also wasn't just the police and media passing this off as a big nothing burger.
> 
> From Brockville to Kingston to Northbay I'm seeing more Canadian flags than I do on Canada day. Obviously they're out there but I haven't heard anyone come across as anti-vaccine in my travels. I've noticed a lot of anti-mandate comments and conversations though, and there seems to be a lot of anger towards the Prime Minister. Lots of "the fringe" or "we the fringe" stickers on vehicles.


I have noticed a lot more Canadian flags than normal as well. 

Something I have noticed in conversation is a lot of people complaining about how stupid the protests are, then more quietly saying things about supporting ending the mandates. The media has made openly supporting the protests so toxic that people often won't say what they really think for fear of being smeared as "racist" or "anti-vax".


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> 46% of Canadians sympathize with trucker convoy, but many disagree with their tactics: poll - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> An Ipsos poll published Thursday showed that nearly 46 per cent of Canadians sympathize with the frustration of the trucker convoy protesters.
> ...


The thing is that he isn’t wrong. But neither are you.

While a significant number of people sympathise with the TRUCKERS, they aren’t ready to through their support behind the way they are going about it.

Everyone want the pandemic to be over.  How we get there is the debate.  And one loud group, being manipulated by a more sinister group with other motivations is indeed making itself heard.

Since we are discussing support…






						CityNews
					






					vancouver.citynews.ca


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> No idea what popularity you're referring to. Canada's population is 38 million. These protests have been less than 1% of Canada's population. Just because they're loud doesn't mean there's a lot of them or they are popular.


By that math you're in trouble - the Jan 6th Rally had ~100k, and sub 2% of that group went full retard and onto the Capital.


----------



## Haggis (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The over/under estimation on the convoy/crowd size took center stage pretty quick. The numbers game is always low hanging fruit for both sides whether it's a protest or presidential inauguration.
> 
> It also wasn't just the police and media passing this off as a big nothing burger.


I have some relatives who are pro-trucker, anti-vax, anti-mandate in a hard core way (one I have mentioned on this forum before).  Following their social media feeds during the run-up to the Ottawa event, and comparing that to police and MSM messaging provided polar opposite information.

*Trucker organizers*':  "50,000 trucks!  Half a million people!"  "We will stay until our (outlandish) demands are met!"

compared to:

*MSM*:  "A few dozen transports, numerous passenger cars and their supporters will be in Ottawa over the weekend".

Both were wrong,  but the political consequences are bigger for one side and continue to grow.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> 46% of Canadians sympathize with trucker convoy, but many disagree with their tactics: poll - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> An Ipsos poll published Thursday showed that nearly 46 per cent of Canadians sympathize with the frustration of the trucker convoy protesters.
> ...



Oh great, some online poll, amazing. An election just happened during the pandemic with the mandates in place and the people of Canada made their decisions known. Just because these people are not getting what they want doesn't give them the right to start illegally blocking roads and borders and making demands. 

I don't agree with some of the policies of the Liberals. So you're saying that next time I should just grab a thousand people and go block off parliament and start demanding ? This is not how the system works and it ignores what the majority of Canadians want. Otherwise we would have CPC and PPC running the Country.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Oh great, some online poll, amazing. An election just happened during the pandemic with the mandates in place and the people of Canada made their decisions known. Just because these people are not getting what they want doesn't give them the right to start illegally blocking roads and borders and making demands.
> 
> I don't agree with some of the policies of the Liberals. So you're saying that next time I should just grab a thousand people and go block off parliament and start demanding ? This is not how the system works and it ignores what the majority of Canadians want. Otherwise we would have CPC and PPC running the Country.


When did I say I wanted this protest to continue? I want this to end and I want political dialogue on these issues, instead what we get is more "gotcha" politics.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

And some folks are still puzzling why some may not trust the Government’s intentions.

Quebec MP Joël Lightbound was 100% bang-on with Trudeau’s inherent divisiveness, which is covered by one of the few marked skills I’ll grant Trudeau…cunning camouflage from a bottomless well of vapid platitudes of “we’re all in this together” and “do your part for your fellow Canadians.”

The style of those words remind me of something…



…or was it more like…



_Edit to add_:  See, everyone has a little ‘Red Book’…some just use pretty pictures (of themselves, no less!) on the outside…


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> When did I say I wanted this protest to continue? I want this to end and I want political dialogue on these issues, instead what we get is more "gotcha" politics.


Again, why start dialogue based off these people's demands? The proper way for this is for these people engage their MPs who would then represent them in Parliament and bring forth motions that you know, the people that Canadians elected can vote on them. So that way all Canadians' interests are represented, not just of these people.


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Again, why start dialogue based off these people's demands? The proper way for this is for these people engage their MPs who would then represent them in Parliament and bring forth motions that you know, the people that Canadians elected can vote on them. So that way all Canadians' interests are represented, not just of these people.


Which would work if Trudeau cares or even acted like he cares what MP's say.

When the Ballot box doesn't work - people turn to the cartridge box...


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Ottawa's mayor apparently believes he has achieved Peace in our Time.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492958631729541122


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Which would work if Trudeau cares or even acted like he cares what MP's say.
> 
> When the Ballot box doesn't work - people turn to the cartridge box...


Trudeau is just one riding in Montreal. If the majority of people wanted this change, they would have voted for the party that was campaigning on no mandates, which I believe the CPC  and PPC was. But since that didn't happen, the majority of people voted for parties that didn't hold that position, then that's what the majority of Canadians want. That's how the system works.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Which would work if Trudeau cares or even acted like he cares what MP's say.
> 
> When the Ballot box doesn't work - people turn to the cartridge box...




When has that ever been the case in Canada?  And if it has, it certainly isn’t after 6 or 7 years of Trudeau that would be the cause.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Ottawa's mayor apparently believes he has achieved Peace in our Time.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492958631729541122


Yeah right.  I don’t believe anything that group says. Either Watson is being played or it’s a fake.  Wouldn’t shock me if he’s being played.


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Yeah right.  I don’t believe anything that group says. Either Watson is being played or it’s a fake.  Wouldn’t shock me if he’s being played.


Probably being played, those "leaders" barely speak for those in the red zone.


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Trudeau is just one riding in Montreal. If the majority of people wanted this change, they would have voted for the party that was campaigning on no mandates, which I believe the CPC  and PPC was. But since that didn't happen, the majority of people voted for parties that didn't hold that position, then that's what the majority of Canadians want. That's how the system works.


I think you are exceptionally over-simplifying the issues.

 Generally the Squeaky Wheel gets the grease - and why Lawful Assembly is part of the Democratic process.

It isn't just one issue, it is a whole bunch of issues - and why you are seeing other protests pop up elsewhere.



Remius said:


> When has that ever been the case in Canada?  And if it has, it certainly isn’t after 6 or 7 years of Trudeau that would be the cause.


Well, I would say Louis Riel, and JT's (alleged - as Fidel had a fair chance too) Father PET use of the CAF against the FLQ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

> So you're saying that next time I should just grab a thousand people and go block off parliament and start demanding ?



Depends on who you are.  If you're one of the perennial malcontents who chain themselves to things and sing along to drum circles, you're just a person in the neighbourhood.  When people who ordinarily are too busy working and getting on with their lives take time out to b!tch, it means something more fundamental is wrong.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> I don't agree with some of the policies of the Liberals. So you're saying that next time I should just grab a thousand people and go block off parliament and start demanding ? This is not how the system works and it ignores what the majority of Canadians want. Otherwise we would have CPC and PPC running the Country.



Actually that’s exactly how it works.  Are you suggesting citizens must shut up and tow the Party’s line submissively between elections?

Oh, and you’re really stretching ‘majority’….plurality maybe…or maybe even more accurately, “the 2nd largest minority*” 😆 (you know, 32.6% being less than 31.3%).  There is a difference between the “will of the people” and “electoral results.” 🧠


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I think you are exceptionally over-simplifying the issues.
> 
> Generally the Squeaky Wheel gets the grease - and why Lawful Assembly is part of the Democratic process.
> 
> ...


Sure, I got no issue with these people showing up every day in front of Parliament and protest. It's the blockading of roads and borders where it's not a lawful assembly anymore and is not part of the democratic process.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Actually that’s exactly how it works.  Are you suggesting citizens must shut up and tow the Party’s line submissively between elections?
> 
> Oh, and you’re really stretching ‘majority’….plurality maybe…or maybe even more accurately, “the 2nd largest minority*” 😆 (you know, 32.6% being less than 31.3%).  There is a difference between the “will of the people” and “electoral results.” 🧠


Liberals, NDP and Bloc did not run on no mandates position. So yea, put them all together and the majority of Canadians voted on the issue.

The right process in Canada is engage your MPs to represent your interests in Parliament. That's how it works.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> *Trudeau is just one riding in Montreal*. If the majority of people wanted this change, they would have voted for the party that was campaigning on no mandates, which I believe the CPC  and PPC was. But since that didn't happen, the majority of people voted for parties that didn't hold that position, then that's what the majority of Canadians want. That's how the system works.


😆 So Justin Trudeau and Joël Lightbound are equals now…you should consider stand up comedy.  You’re awesome!


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I think you are exceptionally over-simplifying the issues.
> 
> Generally the Squeaky Wheel gets the grease - and why Lawful Assembly is part of the Democratic process.
> 
> ...


The FLQ was a terrorist group when terrorist groups were a thing.  Especially leftist/marxist ones.

Louis Riel was somewhat insane with a Jesus complex.

Both issues were solved with the noose or military intervention.  In one case, both.


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Sure, I got no issue with these people showing up every day in front of Parliament and protest. It's the blockading of roads and borders where it's not a lawful assembly anymore and is not part of the democratic process.


I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it is no longer lawful assembly at that point.
   However historically in Democratic countries unlawful acts by protestors gain a lot more traction.



meni0n said:


> Liberals, NDP and Bloc did not run on no mandates position. So yea, put them all together and the majority of Canadians voted on the issue.


You are again assuming people 1 issue voted...


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> 😆 So Justin Trudeau and Joël Lightbound are equals now…you should consider stand up comedy.  You’re awesome!





KevinB said:


> I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it is no longer lawful assembly at that point.
> However historically in Democratic countries unlawful acts by protestors gain a lot more traction.
> 
> 
> You are again assuming people 1 issue voted...


Yes, but if they really considered these mandates so wrong they would have voted based on that no? At least this is what these occupiers are screaming about all day, how it's about freedom, how's it the single most important issue and how they're fighting for the majority of Canadians to be free again?


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> 😆 So Justin Trudeau and Joël Lightbound are equals now…you should consider stand up comedy.  You’re awesome!


Pretty sure they get one vote in Parliament.... unless Justin somehow gets more than one because the Liberals elected him as leader?


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

“In for a Penny, in for a pound.”

I’ll ante in my $25 bucks…”Hey Justin, call another election!” 😆


----------



## Furniture (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Yes, but if they really considered these mandates so wrong they would have voted based on that no? At least this is what these occupiers are screaming about all day, how it's about freedom, how's it the single most important issue and how they're fighting for the majority of Canadians to be free again?



You're kind of ignoring that fact that the situation with COVID has changed, and people don't vote on one issue usually. Omicron has altered people's tolerances for restrictions.... Remember back around the election when they were telling us Christmas would be saved by getting vaccinated?



meni0n said:


> Pretty sure they get one vote in Parliament.... unless Justin somehow gets more than one because the Liberals elected him as leader?


I suppose if you ignore the actual reality of the party system in Parliament that makes sense, but in the real world there are party whips, and the fact the rump parties can't afford another election right away. That means the PM has considerably more power than one vote.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

While some think that might be funny.  Consider it when we’ve just seen O’toole ousted as leader from his party or when Warara, Chong and Lemieux (I only remember Chong from that and had to look it up) led a backbencher revolt against Harper.  Boris Johnson is having/had similar issues over COVID measures.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're kind of ignoring that fact that the situation with COVID has changed, and people don't vote on one issue usually. Omicron has altered people's tolerances for restrictions.... Remember back around the election when they were telling us Christmas would be saved by getting vaccinated?
> 
> 
> I suppose if you ignore the actual reality of the party system in Parliament that makes sense, but in the real world there are party whips, and the fact the rump parties can't afford another election right away. That means the PM has considerably more power than one vote.


If it was such a huge issue, everyone and their mother would be calling their MPs demanding whatever these occupiers are asking for. You will also be seeing huge crowds everywhere, but you're not. It's a tiny minority.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

Protest and revolution are part of democracy; sometimes the path to democracy.  Arguing that protests are anti-democratic isn't a strong tack to take.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> If it was such a huge issue, everyone and their mother would be calling their MPs demanding whatever these occupiers are asking for. You will also be seeing huge crowds everywhere, but you're not. It's a tiny minority.


The Pandemic is and was a huge issue. 

Nobody likes mandates.  But most accepted them as the way out of this.  It doesn’t mean they were happy about it.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Protest and revolution are part of democracy; sometimes the path to democracy.  Arguing that protests are anti-democratic isn't a strong tack to take.


When the protest is against democracy then I would argue that it is.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Protest and revolution are part of democracy; sometimes the path to democracy.  Arguing that protests are anti-democratic isn't a strong tack to take.


Sure, but we have democracy, unless you want to make an argument we don't? I never said protests are anti-democratic. I said illegally occupying streets, borders, waving nazi flags and harassing locals over wearing of masks and then making demands/threats to get what you want is not part of the democratic process. Some of the demands of these people was to depose the current government and install their committee to run the country. I don't understand how people here can support them. I guess hating the Liberal government is more important than preserving the country. How can you have worn the uniform and had the Canadian flag on your shoulder and then cheer on these occupations/protests that are led by the likes of white supremacists like Pat King.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> If it was such a huge issue, everyone and their mother would be calling their MPs demanding whatever these occupiers are asking for. You will also be seeing huge crowds everywhere, but you're not. It's a tiny minority.


Well, if you say so...


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

> If it was such a huge issue, everyone and their mother would be calling their MPs demanding whatever these occupiers are asking for.



Look up "preference cascade".  I suppose most people are sitting quietly waiting to see how things work out for the early adopters of fewer restrictions.  If so, what we're seeing is the early, relatively polite, warning - the one that should prompt authorities to heed the old advice "the greatest problems are most easily solved while they are small".


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Feb 2022)

I mean there is this too... He's junk no doubt about that.  But who is ready to take his place ?  Who is offering the alternative ?


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Sure, but we have democracy, unless you want to make an argument we don't? I never said protests are anti-democratic. I said illegally occupying streets, borders, waving nazi flags and harassing locals over wearing of masks and then making demands/threats to get what you want is not part of the democratic process. Some of the demands of these people was to depose the current government and install their committee to run the country. I don't understand how people here can support them. I guess hating the Liberal government is more important than preserving the country. How can you have worn the uniform and had the Canadian flag on your shoulder and then cheer on these occupations/protests that are led by the likes of white supremacists like Pat King.


Democracy, on one hand, and rule of law and "peace, order and good government," on the other, are two different things. 

I think we have some serious governance problems. If we fix those at forthcoming national, provincial and local elections, then our democracy will be just fine. If we elect better governments then they will, in turn fix the the very evident failures in the area of "peace, order and good government."


----------



## mariomike (13 Feb 2022)

Anyone wants a do-over of the last election.

338Canada Federal Projection​
Last update: 13 Feb., 2022









						338Canada Canada | Poll Analysis & Electoral Projections
					






					338canada.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> Sure, but we have democracy, unless you want to make an argument we don't?


We don't have a true democracy.

I can't vote directly on issues. I vote through a proxy but even then I can only hope they vote the way I want them to vote. If they don't I can't fire him. I need to wait 4 years to vote for a new one, even then I might not get my choice.

If the proxy I vote for votes against the party wishes then the person I voted for can be fired from the party. Lots of rea$ons for them not to vote against the party wishes.


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Anyone wants a do-over of the last election.
> 
> 338Canada Federal Projection​
> Last update: 13 Feb., 2022
> ...


At this point we would get the same result


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> We don't have a true democracy.
> 
> I can't vote directly on issues. I vote through a proxy but even then I can only hope they vote the way I want them to vote. If they don't I can't fire him. I need to wait 4 years to vote for a new one, even then I might not get my choice.
> 
> If the proxy I vote for votes against the party wishes then the person I voted for can be fired. Lots of rea$ons for them not to vote against the party wishes.


There is no perfect system.  True democracy exists in small groups that all have a voice.  Tribes and anything that allows for consensus governance.  

Large successful Nations cannot effectively achieve that.  They can only make the best of what they have and attempt to achieve what they can.  

We lack a true professional ruling class.  But many would balk at having that sort of thing.  It’s an interesting concept though.  Plato examined it.  He was not impressed by democracy as he thought it would ultimately lead to Tyranny.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> At this point we would get the same result


One would think it would be an even bigger majority, given the opposition doesn’t even have the leader who would campaign against Trudeau! 😉


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Protest and *revolution* are part of democracy ....


Protesting is a part of democracy.  Revolution?  Depends what kind ....


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> One would think it would be an even bigger majority, given the opposition doesn’t even have the leader who would campaign against Trudeau! 😉


And the way many have been talking, they seem to think that a shovel could beat Trudeau but here we are…


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> One would think it would be an even bigger majority, given the opposition doesn’t even have the leader who would campaign against Trudeau! 😉


Even if the house votes a non-confidence motion, unless liberals break ranks and cause internal strife in the party, it will be more of the same.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

So in regards to our CANSOF gent under investigation, maybe he was turned in by his fellows…

Link removed because of the sources, embedded in the tweet

Looks like some divisons and active participation in the actual protest.

Long story short.  2 assaulters are participating in the protest.  Divisons at Dwyer hill as some are fed up with the anti vax posture of some.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Plato examined it.  He was not impressed by democracy as he thought it would ultimately lead to Tyranny.


The plank owners of the US Constitution believed the same. Thought it would lead to tyranny of the majority. I wonder what they would think of representative democracy now.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The plank owners of the US Constitution believed the same. Thought it would lead to tyranny of the majority. I wonder what they would think of representative democracy now.


They may have thought so.  Plato’s thoughts were that democracy would eventually attract those looking for personal gain,  the US is certainly showing that.  Canada it seems may be on the same route but our system is a bit more robust but I think it’s being severely tested.


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The plank owners of the US Constitution believed the same. Thought it would lead to tyranny of the majority. I wonder what they would think of representative democracy now.





> _I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and *domestic*; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God._



With this ^ and the second amendment I feel like the USA was created with the expectation that revolutions would happen.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

I suspect there is a lot of support for these protests (and the multitude of issues) by members of the military and given the leadership and accountability crisis we're facing, sternly reminding members of QR&O 19.14 and 19.36 may not be as effective as it once was.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> With is and the second amendment I feel like the USA was created with the expectation that revolutions would happen.


Washington wanted to abolish slavery but got some serious push back on that.  I imagine the conversations would lead anyone to believe that.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> So in regards to our CANSOF gent under investigation, maybe he was turned in by his fellows…
> 
> Link removed because of the sources, embedded in the tweet
> 
> ...


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Press release:






						Statement from Commander Canadian Special Operations Forces Command - Canada.ca
					

The Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CANSOFCOM) does not condone its members supporting and/or actively taking part in causes that jeopardize the apolitical imperative associated with their functions.




					www.canada.ca


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> View attachment 68680View attachment 68681


If they where there, out of uniform and doing nothing untoward - what would it matter?
  I highly doubt any assaulter would be out in their DEU's - given the fact most of those are in a closet two ranks stale and under 4" of dust...


----------



## Gunnar (13 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Anyone wants a do-over of the last election.
> 
> 338Canada Federal Projection​
> Last update: 13 Feb., 2022
> ...


To be fair, that is the projection when the CPC has no recognized leader.  Polls always tighten up near a real election.  Neat site tho.


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> If they where there, out of uniform and doing nothing untoward - what would it matter?
> I highly doubt any assaulter would be out in their DEU's - given the fact most of those are in a closet two ranks stale and under 4" of dust...


Well there were identified some how, and now it's become a problem


----------



## kev994 (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> We don't have a true democracy.
> 
> I can't vote directly on issues. I vote through a proxy but even then I can only hope they vote the way I want them to vote. If they don't I can't fire him. I need to wait 4 years to vote for a new one, even then I might not get my choice.
> 
> If the proxy I vote for votes against the party wishes then the person I voted for can be fired from the party. Lots of rea$ons for them not to vote against the party wishes.


You want everyone to have a vote button in their living room so that we can vote in every single issue? That’s crazy. None of the necessary evils would ever get funded, most people will have no idea of the consequences of what they’re doing (see Brexit)…


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

> How can you have worn the uniform and had the Canadian flag on your shoulder and then cheer on these occupations/protests that are led by the likes of white supremacists like Pat King.



I'm not cheering on the white-supremacists-with-Pat-King part.  You understand where you went wrong?


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

> We lack a true professional ruling class.



France gives it a good go, but my opinion of French governance is well below several other countries'.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2022)

> Canada it seems may be on the same route but our system is a bit more robust but I think it’s being severely tested.



Given how overtly the interests of prominent Liberals spill over into foreign policy, I doubt our "system" is more robust.  The US "system" is under a lot more pressure with a much closer balance of divisions and, despite hand-wringing to the contrary, continues to function as it was laid down.  (It helps to remember that the federal government isn't the be-all and end-all in the US and pay attention to the states.)


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> You want everyone to have a vote button in their living room so that we can vote in every single issue? That’s crazy. None of the necessary evils would ever get funded, most people will have no idea of the consequences of what they’re doing (see Brexit)…


There needs to be balance.  

A country-wide referendum for every parliamentary decision is clearly unreasonable. 

So too is having minimal to no effective accountability for several years until just a few weeks before before the next election.  The response “you’ll have your say at the next election” is lazy and disrespectful of the social contract between politician and citizen.


----------



## meni0n (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> If they where there, out of uniform and doing nothing untoward - what would it matter?
> I highly doubt any assaulter would be out in their DEU's - given the fact most of those are in a closet two ranks stale and under 4" of dust...


You mean you don't see an issue with military members supporting a protest that was calling to replace the current government with their own committee?


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> If they where there, out of uniform and doing nothing untoward - what would it matter?
> I highly doubt any assaulter would be out in their DEU's - given the fact most of those are in a closet two ranks stale and under 4" of dust...


Agreed.  it looks like their colleagues may have reported them.

It’s the veiled alleged “supporting in one form or other” comment that raises eyebrows for me.  

I guess we’ll see what that means when this comes to light.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> There needs to be balance.
> 
> A country-wide referendum for every parliamentary decision is clearly unreasonable.
> 
> So too is having minimal to no effective accountability for several years until just a few weeks before before the next election.  The response “you’ll have your say at the next election” is lazy and disrespectful of the social contract between politician and citizen.


Isn’t that what the Supreme Court is for?


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Isn’t that what the Supreme Court is for?


You suggest that executive accountability is/should be transferred to the judiciary???


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You suggest that executive accountability is/should be transferred to the judiciary???


No.  The Judiciary is the area where the electorate/people can appeal any legislation they think may be unjust or badly crafted. And that isn’t limited by an election cycle.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> You want everyone to have a vote button in their living room so that we can vote in every single issue?


I do. That's direct democracy in action.


			
				kev994 said:
			
		

> most people will have no idea of the consequences of what they’re doing (see Brexit)…


People have the sum of 200,000+ years of human knowledge in their hands every time they pick up a cell phone or turn on a computer with the internet.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s the veiled alleged “supporting in one form or other” comment that raises eyebrows for me.


Myself as well. What if someone drops off coffee for their buddies protesting? Or walking around the protest to check out what's going on? Seems overreaching and ambiguous.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I do. That's direct democracy in action.
> 
> People have the sum of 200,000+ years of human knowledge in their hands every time they pick up a cell phone or turn on a computer with the internet.


Some people believe it’s only 6000 years and that we walked with dinosaurs back then. Mostly because they read that on their cell phone and computer so YMMV


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Myself as well. What if someone drops off coffee for their buddies protesting? Or walking around the protest to check out what's going on? Seems overreaching and ambiguous.


Hence allegations.  And investigating.  If it’s just that then there should be no problem.  But it looks like they are all being released anyways.  How they get released I would guess will depend on what comes of the investigation.  I guess the allegations are serious enough to warrant looking into.  Sounds like someone is doing their due diligence.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some people believe it’s only 6000 years and that we walked with dinosaurs back then. Mostly because they read that on their cell phone and computer so YMMV


People believed we're only 6000 years old well before the internet was invented. Other people read tea leaves for enlightenment. I like the whole make up your own mind aspect of free well, YMMV as well.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Isn’t that what the Supreme Court is for?


then


Good2Golf said:


> You suggest that executive accountability is/should be transferred to the judiciary???


then


Remius said:


> No.  The Judiciary is the area where the electorate/people can appeal any legislation they think may be unjust or badly crafted. And that isn’t limited by an election cycle.



Ahhhh….my mistake. I thought the Supreme Court of Canada was part of the Judiciary in Canada.






						Judiciary in Canada
					

The judiciary is, collectively, the judges of the courts of law. It is the branch of government in which judicial 	power is vested. It is independent of the le...




					www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca
				




My bad….apparently.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (13 Feb 2022)

Windsor Police Services have cleared the roadblock of the Ambassador Bridge. Some vehicles towed, a few arrests for mischief.


----------



## kev994 (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Isn’t that what the Supreme Court is for?


It’s supposed to be what the senate is for but that’s a farce.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> then
> 
> then
> 
> ...


Perhaps I’m not explaining properly.  I’m not trying to confuse you. Or perhaps I misread what you were trying to express.

You said:

“So too is having minimal to no effective accountability for several years until just a few weeks before before the next election. The response “you’ll have your say at the next election” is lazy and disrespectful of the social contract between politician and citizen.”

Right.  So you are wrong as there is accountability.  We have systems like an independent judiciary that can help citizens hold them accountable.  They can challenge the laws and act.  If they don’t then so be it.  But they can.   But it does not mean they will be right. 

You can have your say next election.  I’m not sure why that is disrespectful.  We can’t have elections every year and we can’t have referendums in everything that is unsustainable.  

What would you like to see?  Recall legislation?  Elections every 6 month?  Referendums on everything? 

I’m curious what you think the solution is.


----------



## Altair (13 Feb 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Windsor Police Services have cleared the roadblock of the Ambassador Bridge. Some vehicles towed, a few arrests for mischief.


My condolences to all the families of the killed and injured.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> It’s supposed to be what the senate is for but that’s a farce.


That’s second sober thought.  If someone feels hard done by a law they can lobby to change it or challenge it.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> People believed we're only 6000 years old well before the internet was invented. Other people read tea leaves for enlightenment. I like the whole make up your own mind aspect of free well, YMMV as well.


Voting on everything and anything isn’t sustainable or possible when dealing with Nations.  And even so, apparently even if the majority wins the minority can tantrum out and try to get what they want.  So why bother?


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> If they where there, out of uniform and doing nothing untoward - what would it matter?
> I highly doubt any assaulter would be out in their DEU's - given the fact most of those are in a closet two ranks stale and under 4" of dust...


I seem to remember many, many hour of discussion after even more hours of reading about why the military must be apolitical. We, military members, have an option when we decide that the government's actions are unacceptable: we resign. That is our only option. If we cannot serve with total loyalty to the crown (Constitution is some places) then we must resign.


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

RCMP arrest anti-mandate protesters at blockaded B.C. border crossing
					

Police have begun arresting anti-mandate protesters who had been blocking the roadway leading to the Pacific Highway border crossing in Surrey, B.C. since Saturday.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike (13 Feb 2022)

Looks like someone had a change of heart.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492982507712692232


----------



## Happy Guy (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Some people believe it’s only 6000 years and that we walked with dinosaurs back then. Mostly because they read that on their cell phone and computer so YMMV



Actually there is direct evidence that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs as per the Paluxy River limestone beds.
While not supported by main stream scientists, many creationists hold this as proof that the Earth is not billions of years old.  Many people believe that Archbishop Ussher’s seventeenth-century calculation of about 6000 years is a good estimate.

You be the judge.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Voting on everything and anything isn’t sustainable or possible when dealing with Nations.


Not with that attitude 



> And even so, apparently even if the majority wins the minority can tantrum out and try to get what they want.  So why bother?


Yes, we shouldn't tolerate people with unacceptable views in our society.



mariomike said:


> Looks like someone had a change of heart.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492982507712692232


Yea they weren't letting people leave until they took stickers off their vehicle.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Perhaps I’m not explaining properly.  I’m not trying to confuse you. Or perhaps I misread what you were trying to express.
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...


My concern was exactly as I stated, but let me emphasize my words to ensure clarity of my intent.



> So too is having *minimal to no effective *accountability for several years until just a few weeks before before the next election.


I did not say there is NO accountability, my words were about *effective* accountability.

I feel that current government, especially at the federal level is not effectively accountable, through dismissiveness and worse, gaslighting of societal elements of Canadian society that do not reinforce or at least align with the Government’s position across its policy base.

My solution?  Government needs to tone down its dismissiveness and hasty broad-brushing with inaccurate yet accusatory words.  Trudeau, Blair, etc. need to at least pretend to be mindful of all Canadian society’s concerns, not just to those elements they agree with or by which they are actively supported.


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

meni0n said:


> You mean you don't see an issue with military members supporting a protest that was calling to replace the current government with their own committee?


If they where not breaking any laws - and out of uniform - then no.


Remius said:


> Agreed.  it looks like their colleagues may have reported them.


I'm pretty sure that anyone conducting a protest in this day and age is logged and sorted in milliseconds - simply because we have the technology and have used that against opponents since early on in the GWOT.
  If it is anything like down here - then CSIS/RCMP/CSE would flag it to the unit/command security officer - and then decisions made.


Remius said:


> It’s the veiled alleged “supporting in one form or other” comment that raises eyebrows for me.
> 
> I guess we’ll see what that means when this comes to light.


----------



## kev994 (13 Feb 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> Actually there is direct evidence that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs as per the Paluxy River limestone beds.
> While not supported by main stream scientists, many creationists hold this as proof that the Earth is not billions of years old.  Many people believe that Archbishop Ussher’s seventeenth-century calculation of about 6000 years is a good estimate.
> 
> You be the judge.
> ...


The link you posted basically says that there are other things that would cause that and that only a couple quacks believe they’re human footprints.


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I seem to remember many, many hour of discussion after even more hours of reading about why the military must be apolitical. We, military members, have an option when we decide that the government's actions are unacceptable: we resign. That is our only option. If we cannot serve with total loyalty to the crown (Constitution is some places) then we must resign.


Yet some "Apolitical" members run for office...

  Being in the Military doesn't make one a robot - you have the ability as does any other Canadian to have your voice heard.
    It only becomes an issue IF 1) was to break the law 2) Make an issue about ones Military ties in that respect. 3) do it "on the clock"


----------



## Happy Guy (13 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> The link you posted basically says that there are other things that would cause that and that only a couple quacks believe they’re human footprints.


ACK and despite the evidence to the contrary many people still point to this as an example the humans and dinosaurs lived in the same time period.  Scientists always make up things (sarcasm) to fit their theories or is it just people who want to fit a square peg into a round hole?.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2022)

Just a totally normal last minute cabinet meeting added during the Super Bowl.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493037035573202945


----------



## Quirky (13 Feb 2022)

PM doesn’t watch football?


----------



## Haggis (13 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> PM doesn’t watch football?


Just snowboarding.


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> ... I can't vote directly on issues ...


Be careful what you wish for.  A lot of people complain there's too many votes in a small, concentrated bit of Canada, so don't think that influence'd go away when it comes to one-person-one-vote per issue.  If one isn't happy with the mix of proxies elected, they may not be happy with the results of "majority rules" on some individual issues.


----------



## mariomike (13 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea they weren't letting people leave until they took stickers off their vehicle.



Flags too, apparently.



> By 3:40 p.m., the first few ensnared vehicles were allowed to depart — they had to remove their flags first — under a heavy police escort as organizers sought to de-escalate the situation.
> Later, vehicles were allowed to leave one at a time to chants of, “Don’t come back, don’t come back.”





			Counter-protesters blockade 'Freedom Convoy' on Riverside Drive
		



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492983905712025602


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493034113133068294
So now no deal?


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

In fairness, I don’t think a deal was actually in place.  The Mayor agreed to talk to them only if they moved their vehicles out of residential areas.  Lich was going to see if she could get “buy in” from the protesters.

So I guess a deal wasn’t really in place.  Only being worked on.


----------



## mariomike (13 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Be careful what you wish for.  A lot of people complain there's too many votes in a small, concentrated bit of Canada, so don't think that influence'd go away when it comes to one-person-one-vote per issue.


^ This.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Flags too, apparently.



I wonder what flags people were being forced to remove.


----------



## Altair (13 Feb 2022)

Windsor blockade cleared after police deploy radical tactic of doing literally anything
					

WINDSOR, ON - A days-long protest on the Ambassador Bridge between Canada and the USA has come to a swift end after police employed the heretofore unimaginable tactic of doing their jobs even a little bit.




					thebeaverton.com


----------



## Remius (13 Feb 2022)

TD Bank freezes accounts of people supporting the Freedom Convoy
					

A Toronto-based bank has suspended $1.4 million in donations to Canadian truckers protesting vaccine mandates that were made through a crowdfunding platform called GiveSendGo




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Looks like TD froze some money.


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Feb 2022)

Three Canadian Special Forces members under investigation for protest involvement
					

Three members of the Canadian Special Operations Forces are under investigation for allegedly supporting the protests against COVID-19 restrictions in Ottawa,…




					calgaryherald.com
				




Members involved were already being released....I'm seeing a pattern of 110% IDGAF with these people being released for not vaccinating.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Feb 2022)

Ambassador Bridge reopens after week-long protest
					

The Ambassador Bridge crossing between Canada and the U.S. has reopened, the Canada Border Services Agency and Detroit International Bridge Company said late Sunday.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Ambassador Bridge has reopened, but at the same time a crossing in bc is now blocked


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (14 Feb 2022)

With tatical units at Coutts now what's the next move?


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

Walt?

Plus what he is saying is bull






Oh and that headdress?  I know Airborne....would a past member of Airborne have it look like that?


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Ambassador Bridge reopens after week-long protest
> 
> 
> The Ambassador Bridge crossing between Canada and the U.S. has reopened, the Canada Border Services Agency and Detroit International Bridge Company said late Sunday.
> ...



Well, it's Surrey so anything that contains it more effectively will be welcome 

Four arrested at Pacific Highway crossing after anti-vaccine mandate truck convoy disruption​176th Street remained closed from 8th Avenue south to 0 Avenue Sunday.









						Four arrested at Pacific Highway crossing after anti-vaccine mandate truck convoy disruption
					

176th Street remained closed from 8th Avenue south to 0 Avenue Sunday.




					vancouversun.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Walt?
> 
> Plus what he is saying is bull



Good heavens... will show beret properly worn.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (14 Feb 2022)

All,

*The Hacking of the GiveSendGo Website and the distribution of people's personal information is an illegal activity and as such all posts containing links to it in this thread and others will be deleted.

It is also a blatant violation of the conduct guidelines for this forum, which you can read here:*

Official - Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ

No one will be issued a Warning for any postings already made but if subsequent links are posted or information contained is posted here referencing that illegal activity or any other activity that violates personal privacy and site guidelines, those posts will be deleted and sanctions will be handed out.

*Subsequent failure to follow this direction will see escalation at the discretion of the Site Administration.*

Thank you for your cooperation and helping keep this site a viable place for civil discourse. 


*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Kilted (14 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> With tatical units at Coutts now what's the next move?
> View attachment 68697


Like father, like son.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Hm.  I get not linking or quoting/citing.  Can't mention the fact of existence?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hm.  I get not linking or quoting/citing.  Can't mention the fact of existence?


Brad, talk about the issue freely but no links/citations to the material.   

Apologies for deleting your post, I cleaned up all posts ref the initial links posted to give the thread a clean slate with regard to that material.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

No worries.  Admittedly, it was a bit...troll-ish.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Like father, like son.


Maybe so but the rule of law needs to held to a higher regard then it is.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Also like mother, like son.  Who can tell which will express itself?


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

Hey not to be a pain....anyone's Walt detector go off on the video I posted back a few.  Just was talking to people I feel that may not be a real vet.  I was just going by the beret. And him saying burgundy not maroon.  It could be just me, just didn't seem right.


----------



## Kilted (14 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Hey not to be a pain....anyone's Walt detector go off on the video I posted back a few.  Just was talking to people I feel that may not be a real vet.  I was just going by the beret. And him saying burgundy not maroon.  It could be just me, just didn't seem right.


There are bound to be a few of them in the crowd.


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

Also I only ever knew one guy that serviced in the CAR. He serviced my keg lines and tap. He was very bitter about the whole thing. Told me about the day and couple night when they announced the disbanding.  Well something about that guy in the video.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (14 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> All,
> 
> *The Hacking of the GiveSendGo Website and the distribution of people's personal information is an illegal activity and as such all posts containing links to it in this thread and others will be deleted.
> 
> ...


Let's say you had the list and your name or colleague's was found on it. Would you be subject to same scrutiny as the JTF2 guys? 
Not public info, but can see how a news reporter could say "17 soldiers found as donaters".


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Let's say you had the list and your name or colleague's was found on it. Would you be subject to same scrutiny as the JTF2 guys?
> Not public info, but can see how a news reporter could say "17 soldiers found as donaters".


I would hope not. But in the highy political world who knows.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (14 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I would hope not. But in the highy political world who knows.


My heart says no but my brain says yes.  The Twitter bloodlust over this is OTT.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Flags too, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah there we go. It was Canadian flags the counter-protestors wanted taken down.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ah there we go. It was Canadian flags the counter-protestors wanted taken down.


Don’t be surprised if this happens again next weekend.  The counter protest crowds are apparently getting a bigger.   

The key thing is to make sure the bulk of each crowd stays well away from each each other.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Three Canadian Special Forces members under investigation for protest involvement
> 
> 
> Three members of the Canadian Special Operations Forces are under investigation for allegedly supporting the protests against COVID-19 restrictions in Ottawa,…
> ...


Or is it proof that this is _all_ political theatre, stage managed by the government, played out by actors to lead to a state of emergency where dictatorial powers will be wielded (and never given up)?  

(Only trolling a bit because I actually know people who _truly_ seem to believe this may be the case)


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Or is it proof that this is _all_ political theatre, stage managed by the government, played out by actors to lead to a state of emergency where dictatorial powers will be wielded (and never given up)?
> 
> (Only trolling a bit because I actually know people who _truly_ seem to believe this may be the case)


Winding on the tinfoil early? I’m joking of course. 😉


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Winding on the tinfoil early? I’m joking of course. 😉


I don't believe it myself, but I know people that are generally a lot smarter than me in a lot of things who do, so it shows a bit of the state of the day these days.


----------



## Haggis (14 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Winding on the tinfoil early? I’m joking of course. 😉


Don't forget the mustard with the No.6 yellow dye to block 5G.


----------



## CBH99 (14 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Don't forget the mustard with the No.6 yellow dye to block 5G.


Wait what?

You’re telling me I bought all this mustard, on a Sunday at that, and it only works with a certain shade of dye?  

Well happy Monday to you too…


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Don't forget the mustard with the No.6 yellow dye to block 5G.


Well we saw last night where Dolly keeps her 5G phone. It must have some protection value.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Don't forget the mustard with the No.6 yellow dye to block 5G.


It ALWAYS loops back to 5G, doesn't it?


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Don't forget the mustard with the No.6 yellow dye to block 5G.


What??? Oh heavens I never heard of this til now!!!! 😉


----------



## CBH99 (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ah there we go. It was Canadian flags the counter-protestors wanted taken down.


And here I thought it was the numerous ‘F**k Trudeau’ signs they wanted taken down for being sooo offensive… 😅🤷🏼‍♂️



I personally observed the counter-protest in Edmonton on Saturday.  Was interesting to just observe it for a few hours - get an idea of who is who, who to keep an eye on, who showed up just to be part of it, etc 

_All other observations aside_ the guy I was working with & I chuckled a few times as the counter-protesters weren’t really against the truckers or the messages…

They just wanted the truckers to stop honking all the bloody time so the families that live downtown could finally get some sleep.  (Absolutely fair enough.)


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

CBH99 said:


> And here I thought it was the numerous ‘F**k Trudeau’ signs they wanted taken down for being sooo offensive… 😅🤷🏼‍♂️
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The injunction that that 21 year old got was exactly for that.  Stop the honking.  The convoy types aren’t exactly endearing themselves to the locals.  Add the seemingly non existant leadership at all three levels of government and people will start to take action on their own.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The injunction that that 21 year old got was exactly for that.  Stop the honking.  The convoy types aren’t exactly endearing themselves to the locals.  Add the seemingly non existant leadership at all three levels of government and people will start to take action on their own.


There in lies part of the problem along with police chiefs who are afraid to take action.,


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The injunction that that 21 year old got was exactly for that.  Stop the honking.  The convoy types aren’t exactly endearing themselves to the locals.  Add the seemingly non existant leadership at all three levels of government and people will start to take action on their own.


I wonder how a 21yr year affords living downtown like that...


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I wonder how a 21yr year affords living downtown like that...



If its like Halifax she's probably a foreign student with very very rich parents.  That's about who can afford too now.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I wonder how a 21yr year affords living downtown like that...


That is a common misconception of that area of town.  Centertown and in particular west centertown is one of the poorest areas in the city.  Lots of rooming houses, slum lord apartments etc Sure there are high rise condos here and there but a lot of 20k residents there are part of the working poor.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If its like Halifax she's probably a foreign student with very very rich parents.  That's about who can afford too now.


Here I was figuring it was Trudeau's mistress...


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If its like Halifax she's probably a foreign student with very very rich parents.  That's about who can afford too now.


That’s a leap.  There is enough about her on the internet to show that isn’t the case. I don’t know about her parents though.  But she isn’t a foreign student.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> That’s a leap.  There is enough about her on the internet to show that isn’t the case. I don’t know about her parents though.  But she isn’t a foreign student.



It wasn't meant as a slight just a guess based off my observations.  Nor does it really matter how shes able to live there.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It wasn't meant as a slight just a guess based off my observations.  Nor does it really matter how shes able to live there.


I didn’t take it as a slight.  Just trying to avoid a false narrative.  That part of town is not full of rich entitled people.  It’s quite the opposite.  Alta vista, New Edinburgh, Westboro, Rockcliffe, The Glebe.  Those are the “hip” expensive places.  Upper and middle are mostly in the suburbs and bedroom communities.  

Something the rich foreign students are doing is actually buying homes in the suburbs and living there and renting to friends.  Once they are done they sell.  My brother had Saudis next door to him.  I sold my condo in the south end to a student (I don’t think he was a foreign student but his family was in Toronto and his parents were buying for him).


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Here I was figuring it was Trudeau's mistress...


It's that Idris Elba.....opps that's Sophie's....


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

Ya I dont know Ottawa other than how to get from Kingston to the airport and back, by the way I love the Ottawa airport.  I appreciate your education on the neighborhoods.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> That is a common misconception of that area of town.  Centertown and in particular west centertown is one of the poorest areas in the city.  Lots of rooming houses, slum lord apartments etc Sure there are high rise condos here and there but a lot of 20k residents there are part of the working poor.


I can think of a lot poorer areas of Ottawa.
   I haven't been back since the Wuhan Flu took hold, but I lived in Ottawa a considerable part of my life.
When I was last up - a lot of the downtown area had been being "gentrified"


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The counter protest crowds are apparently getting a bigger.



Hopefully everyone stays safe. 

Regarding flag opinions.

Veterans 'saddened' by use of Canadian flag by convoy protesters​The Canadian flag mounted to vehicles and draped over the shoulders of people participating in convoys and blockades is upsetting veterans in this country who say it has no place in this protest.


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/veterans-saddened-by-use-of-canadian-flag-by-convoy-protesters-1.6348734
		












						Remember: Those who wave the Canadian flag do not get to define it for everyone else
					

As the protests and blockades have shown, a country’s flag has more than one meaning. Ian Brown explores the changing symbolism of the maple leaf




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Furniture (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I can think of a lot poorer areas of Ottawa.
> I haven't been back since the Wuhan Flu took hold, but I lived in Ottawa a considerable part of my life.
> When I was last up - a lot of the downtown area had been being "gentrified"


There is an odd mix, but based on what I have taken note of, the cheaper housing is located a bit back from Parliament Hill. You want real rough, it's about 4km from Parliament Hill in Vanier (which is also gentrifying).



mariomike said:


> Hopefully everyone stays safe.
> 
> Regarding flag opinions.
> 
> ...


You can always could on the Globe to drum up some anti-Americanism anytime they see something they don't like in Canada. 

I do appreciate how they dredged up the swastika, and confederate battle flag as well...


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I can think of a lot poorer areas of Ottawa.
> I haven't been back since the Wuhan Flu took hold, but I lived in Ottawa a considerable part of my life.
> When I was last up - a lot of the downtown area had been being "gentrified"


Vanier: has entered the chat.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> There is an odd mix, but based on what I have taken note of, the cheaper housing is located a bit back from Parliament Hill. You want real rough, it's about 4km from Parliament Hill in Vanier (which is also gentrifying).
> 
> 
> You can always could on the Globe to drum up some anti-Americanism anytime they see something they don't like in Canada.
> ...


Growing up in the south end, it was Ledbury-Herongate area.  It was literally across the tracks from where I lived.  A train yard and track separated my community from it.  It’s still bad there.  But it went from low income public housing to low income/new immigrant area over the decades.  When I was a kid you could get beat up and have your bike stolen. Now you might get shot.


----------



## stoker dave (14 Feb 2022)

Back on page 52 of this thread I indicated I was considering going to a counter-protest on 6 Feb (someone flagged me for 'trolling' but that is beside the point). 

I went to one of the counter-protests in Ottawa yesterday.  My observations:


Starting with a small group of about 20, it grew to about 1,000.   I was there for about 3 hours in the afternoon.
It felt more 'street party' than protest:  free pizza, free hot chocolate, free hand warmers (it was about - 15 C, windchill -20 C), music, dancing, etc.
I considered the counter-protesters to be highly representative of Canadian society and a generous mix of ages, demographics, etc.
The police were there but mostly stayed in the background.
With one or two minor exceptions, all peaceable and friendly.
For the most part, it was the local community coming together to say 'enough is enough'.

My observations only.   I am retired and gave no indication of any military affiliation.


----------



## dapaterson (14 Feb 2022)

Reports that an Ottawa city councillor is bringing a motion forward to ask for aid to the civil power.  He's usually a supporter of the mayor, so the request (to the provincial AG) may pass council.

Other sources are reporting that the Emergencies Act is about to be invoked.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Reports that an Ottawa city councillor is bringing a motion forward to ask for aid to the civil power.  He's usually a supporter of the mayor, so the request (to the provincial AG) may pass council.
> 
> Other sources are reporting that the Emergencies Act is about to be invoked.


Which one?


----------



## OceanBonfire (14 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Reports that an Ottawa city councillor is bringing a motion forward to ask for aid to the civil power.  He's usually a supporter of the mayor, so the request (to the provincial AG) may pass council.
> 
> Other sources are reporting that the Emergencies Act is about to be invoked.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493236007981961216

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493237239496724489


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Feb 2022)

No plans yet.....


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Feb 2022)

I had an interesting chat with a retired CAF member who is about to start a second career as a contractor in Victoria with the BC Government.

They were talking with enthusiasm about heading down to the counter-protest. 

I asked them if they were worried about being unemployed. They had no idea why I would ask that of course, as they'd never had to worry about the paycheque before.

'If someone who might hire you sees you there, you'd better hope they can distinguish a protester from a counter-protestor.'

I'm pretty sure it didn't sink in. Maybe a few months of no work will help accelerate the learning process


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> No plans yet.....


Or no publicized plans yet...

Maybe it's just me and the shadow of PET and the War Measures Act, but what other reason would one have to invoke the EA?


----------



## dapaterson (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Which one?


Matt Luloff.  GGFG turned PPCLI turned political staff to the former MND turned City Councillor.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493238392590585859


----------



## Quirky (14 Feb 2022)

So in this specific instance, what can Military personnel, I'm assuming either infantry or MPs, do that RCMP or local police services can't?


----------



## dapaterson (14 Feb 2022)

Ok, this meme rocks.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493245304497442817


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Matt Luloff.  GGFG turned PPCLI turned political staff to the former MND turned City Councillor.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493238392590585859


That’s who I thought it might be.  When you mentioned friendly to the mayor and asking for this. 

Thanks.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So in this specific instance, what can Military personnel, I'm assuming either infantry or MPs, do that RCMP or local police services can't?


Logistics.  Use of facilities for staging.  Just guessing on a few items.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

CBC News Alerts said:
			
		

> CBC News has learned Justin Trudeau will inform the provinces he will invoke the Emergencies Act to give the government extra powers to deal with the protests across the country.



What extra powers would the Emergencies Act give to police to deal with the protests that they don't already have? Hold someone without bail or a trial kind of stuff?

I don't get why police can't walk in Texas Ranger style and arrest who they want.
Are police expecting truckers to pull out uzi's and mac-10s if they move in? Or everyone jumps in their trucks and star bursts? The bridge in Windsor was cleared and there wasn't a massive shoot out at the Alamo.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So in this specific instance, what can Military personnel, I'm assuming either infantry or MPs, do that RCMP or local police services can't?


CANSOF...
   It's the only viable tool - as riot training has been out of the CA curriculum for a long time.
Snatch Teams to grab HVT's

 I supposed one could use RCAF Rotary Wing assets to move LE around quickly too -- and a ERT team rushing out of a Hook would be pretty intimidating.




Remius said:


> Logistics.  Use of facilities for staging.  Just guessing on a few items.


Doesn't require an EA use.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> CANSOF...
> It's the only viable tool - as riot training has been out of the CA curriculum for a long time.
> Snatch Teams to grab HVT's
> 
> ...


If they start towing trucks?  Maybe. If they need to hold civilians somewhere?  

Pretty sure the EA unlocks specific spending and procurement tools.  The EA does not automatically mean the CAF will be called I believe.  But if things escalated they could.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

How would one justify calling in the CAF until the police can actually show they can't handle the situation.  

Right now they have it contained.  And until they fail at being able to physically remove the protesters how can they say they need help ?


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

OK, I had to quit getting caught up for a moment because I'd like to drop some friendly reminders:

Disagree but please do not be disagreeable. What side is what is pretty well known, fairly entrenched, and unwilling to consider much change. You don't have to give the go-fuck-yourself (or whatever) to emphasize your point or stance (again).

(heavy/active) moderation of this thread is not really a goal of ours - it's been going relatively well, and thanks to all who have helped keep it out of the rhubarb. 

We are likely going to have a load more to talk about whenever PMJT emerges from romper room, and so I'd like to simply ask that we keep things civil - at all levels. Got a problem with a post? Report it and wait, please. 

Final fun police statement: if you've got a job where saying dumb things could have consequences then watch where and when you say dumb things.


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I supposed one could use RCAF Rotary Wing assets to move LE around quickly too -- and a ERT team rushing out of a Hook would be pretty intimidating.



And the LZ has been used/proven before…








KevinB said:


> Doesn't require an EA use.


Correct. NDA s.274-284 refers to a Province’s request by its Attorney General directly to the CDS, for Aid to the Civil Power.  The War Measures Emergency Act is not required for a Province to request ACP.



> PART VI​Aid of the Civil Power​*Marginal note: definition of attorney general
> 
> 274 For the purposes of this Part, attorney general means the attorney general of any province, the acting attorney general of a province or any minister of a government of a province who performs for the time being the duties of a provincial attorney general.*
> 
> ...


----------



## OldTanker (14 Feb 2022)

Excellent analysis of Emergency Act by Greg Taylor in the National Post. I can't post a link as it is behind a fire-wall, but he tears apart the rationale for invoking it.  Essentially, between the NDA and provinces declaring a state of emergency provinces can access all the powers they need. It looks like posturing and theatre to me, but I've been wrong before.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Once again.  The EA does not necessarily mean the deployment of the CAF for ACP.  But would allow for it.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Well, a short list from here:

Under the Act, a public order emergency grants the federal government the right to:    

regulate or prohibit “any public assembly that may reasonably be expected to lead to a breach of the peace; travel to, from or within any specified area; or the use of specified property;”   
designate and secure protected places;   
assume control, restoration and maintenance of public utilities and services;   
direct any person or “class of persons” to render essential services, with “the provision of reasonable compensation;”   
impose fines and indictments “for contravention of any order or regulation made under this section.”
The Act specifies that the application of these powers must not interfere with the ability of a province to respond to an emergency of its own. A public order emergency “expires at the end of thirty days unless the declaration is previously revoked or    continued in accordance with this Act.”


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

Poll: 3 in 4 Canadians Tell Convoy Protesters To “Go Home Now” – Unhappy With Trudeau’s Handling​








						Poll: 3 in 4 Canadians Tell Convoy Protesters To “Go Home Now” – Unhappy With Trudeau’s Handling | Nova Scotia Buzz
					

The Freedom Convoy has caught the attention of millions of Canadians.  Two thirds of Canadians say they are following it in the news.  According to The Angus Reid Institute, if protesters goals were




					www.nsbuzz.ca
				




The Freedom Convoy has caught the attention of millions of Canadians. Two thirds of Canadians say they are following it in the news. According to The Angus Reid Institute, if protesters goals were to build support for their demands to end the pandemic-related restrictions, it has utterly backfired.

Canadian politicians in both the government and the official opposition are criticized for harming, not helping events. Two thirds (65%) say Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s comments and actions have worsened the situation. Two-in-five (42%) say this of Candace Bergen, leader of the official opposition.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, a short list from here:
> 
> Under the Act, a public order emergency grants the federal government the right to:
> 
> ...


I read somewhere that it also automatically triggers an inquest once it is over.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So in this specific instance, what can Military personnel, I'm assuming either infantry or MPs, do that RCMP or local police services can't?


I think the CDS gets to pick who gets sent.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Poll: 3 in 4 Canadians Tell Convoy Protesters To “Go Home Now” – Unhappy With Trudeau’s Handling​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Struggling with this list...


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Poll: 3 in 4 Canadians Tell Convoy Protesters To “Go Home Now” – Unhappy With Trudeau’s Handling​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article you shared is also supported by an abacus poll just released on something similar.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Your article is also supported by an abacus poll just released on something similar.



Its not mine, Im only sharing.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Its not mine, Im only sharing.


Edited.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> if protesters goals were to build support for their demands to end the pandemic-related restrictions, it has utterly backfired.





			
				Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Two thirds (65%) say Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s comments and actions have worsened the situation.



It's succeeded in showing Ottawa residents what their votes got em.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Poll: 3 in 4 Canadians Tell Convoy Protesters To “Go Home Now” – Unhappy With Trudeau’s Handling​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The citizens of Ottawa are married to government by the hip, their world revolves around the beast, an attack on the beast feels like an attack on them. The truckers represent the people outside of the "Laptop class" and they are very unhappy and far more impacted than people who can "work at home".


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Once again.  The EA does not necessarily mean the deployment of the CAF for ACP.  But would allow for it.


It doesn’t “allow for it (ACP).”   The National Defence Act defines and supports the provision of ACP.

The more accurate phraseology is that a provincial AG request to the CDS under s.275 of the NDA can happen at any time, including a period where the Emergency Act has been enacted.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> It's succeeded in showing Ottawa residents what their votes got em.



In the next election hes going to have a beaucoup struggle if the party lets him stay on...  He would still win, thanks Ont and Que, but its going to be the smallest of majorities.

There that's my prediction lol


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Looks like this is an outcome to expect: Emergencies Act



> Inquiry
> 
> 
> *63* (1) The Governor in Council shall, within sixty days after the expiration or revocation of a declaration of emergency, cause an inquiry to be held into the circumstances that led to the declaration being issued and the measures taken for dealing with the emergency.
> ...


----------



## Blackadder1916 (14 Feb 2022)

OldTanker said:


> Excellent analysis of Emergency Act by Greg Taylor in the National Post. I can't post a link as it is behind a fire-wall, but he tears apart the rationale for invoking it.  Essentially, between the NDA and provinces declaring a state of emergency provinces can access all the powers they need. It looks like posturing and theatre to me, but I've been wrong before.



I've had no difficulty linking to it.  Agree it is a "good analysis", but don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions.









						Greg Taylor: Why Trudeau declaring a national emergency should have been a non starter
					

A threat to the security of Canada is a very high legal bar to reach




					nationalpost.com
				





> . . .
> 
> But there’s a more fundamental problem with the Emergencies Act, arising from another definition. The Act isn’t about taking over provincial and municipal responsibilities for public order. It’s far broader than that: section 16 defines a Public Order Emergency as arising “from threats to the security of Canada” defined in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act (CSIS Act). Those definitions include “espionage or sabotage,” “foreign influenced activities,” (foreign donors unlikely to meet the definition) “serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective,” and the “overthrow by violence of the constitutionally established system of government in Canada.”
> 
> If that’s what we think is really happening in Ottawa, in Coutts, and elsewhere, then the prime minister might declare a national emergency, *but thus far a compelling case that these protests are “threats to the security of Canada” as defined in the CSIS Act hasn’t been made by him or anyone else in a position of authority*.



While one can have the opinion that it may be a stretch to make such a "compelling case", the Governor-in-Council only has to make such a case to a "majority" of the House, and taking into account political considerations (_and political considerations are always taken into account_) hope that such a move would be met with approval by the majority of the voting population.  At present, that public approval may be in the government's favour,


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> It doesn’t “allow for it (ACP).”   The National Defence Act defines and supports the provision of ACP.
> 
> The more accurate phraseology is that a provincial AG request to the CDS under s.275 of the NDA can happen at any time, including a period where the Emergency Act has been enacted.


Thanks.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The citizens of Ottawa are married to government by the hip, their world revolves around the beast, an attack on the beast feels like an attack on them. The truckers represent the people outside of the "Laptop class" and they are very unhappy and far more impacted than people who can "work at home".


If the protest hadn’t made life difficult with the locals (the homeless, working poor of that area are hardly the laptop class) and stuck to attacking the gvt I doubt they would have as much negative feelings towards them.  

I said it before.  They lost the narrative when they overstayed their welcome.


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

It is interesting also to read the actual basis of the Emergencies Act, in particular Section.3



> note:National emergency
> 
> *3* For the purposes of this Act, a national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that
> 
> ...



The National Defence Act is a law, just as the Emergencies Act is.

So enacting the Emergencies Act would, if Section.3 is respected, be based conditionally on the NDA (in particular s.275-284 - ACP) as the most applicable ‘other law’ having been found to be ineffective…problematic, because Ontario’s AG hasn’t requested ACP of the CDS yet to my knowledge.

IMO, it’s unprincipled use of the Emergencies Act, f the National Defence Act hasn’t been used, let alone used and expended without sufficient success.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> In the next election hes going to have a beaucoup struggle if the party lets him stay on...  He would still win, thanks Ont and Que, but its going to be the smallest of majorities.
> 
> There that's my prediction lol


You might be right.  But he can thank a divided opposition


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> ... I don't get why police can't walk in Texas Ranger style and arrest who they want ...


As with some other protests, and I have zero inside knowledge, I'm _guessing_ one worry is about other protests popping up all over the place, making things even harder to get a grip on.


----------



## FJAG (14 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I think the CDS gets to pick who gets sent.


That's true under AoCP, but it isn't done in isolation. The CDS would discuss the requested needs put forward by the relevant AG and then suggest appropriate military resources.

IMHO the EA is unnecessary because there are already provincial laws which prohibit blocking traffic. What's needed is an enforcement mechanism and I could see operations whereby the police handle arrests and military recovery vehicles drag equipment away (if civilian contractors are reluctant to do so) In addition a stand-by show of force element to "back up & bulk up" the police and help control crowds would be useful. That's really a police function and they are somewhat trained in the process but they express that they are under resourced for it.

I think good leadership by the PM would be to deal with the premiers of the affected provinces and provide them with the back up resources (overtime pay for example) they need and to provide a measure of coordinated response would be enough. Each of those would be triggered by individual requests for AoCP. The objective here is to clear blockades and re-establish commerce but not quash legitimate protests.

The only thing that the EA does is it outs action into the hands of the Feds rather than provincial AGs. Under the EA the Feds have power to make all types of action including limiting the right of assembly. If that is invoked I think it would be a big mistake. It takes a movement whose aim now is to stop the government's mandates of passports and masks which they think infringe their "rights" to be able to pivot to the government taking away their right to assembly. In short they go from what many Canadians think is a stupid position to a more legitimate one.

If Trudeau is careful and the powers are used subtly it might work but this is not a government known for its subtlety,

This is a publicity move, plain and simple, based on the belief that most Canadians are now thoroughly fed up with the "truckers" and that this will make JT look strong and in charge. I think Canadians are fed up but 20/20 hindsight will kick in.

I said it before. They lost the narrative when they overstayed their welcome.



> I said it before. They lost the narrative when they overstayed their welcome.



🍻


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

OldTanker said:


> ... between the NDA and *provinces declaring a state of emergency* ...


No guarantee all the provinces in question would declare.


----------



## Kilted (14 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493236007981961216
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493237239496724489


You have to remember, it's not his call, the decision to all in the military belongs to Doug Ford, it would be then up to the CDS to decide who to send.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

> CBC News has learned Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will inform the provinces he will invoke the Emergencies Act to give the government extra powers to deal with ongoing convoy protests across Canada. *Trudeau told his caucus there are no plans to deploy the military*.



Taken from CBC FB page just now


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Peaceful. Only 11 though, certainly not representative of the rest of the freedom fighters. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493278522122641414


----------



## FJAG (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I said it before. They lost the narrative when they overstayed their welcome.


I think that is true for the good people of Ottawa which includes the herds of politicians and civil servants that live there.

For the rest of Canada - it couldn't care less that Wellington is blocked up. It's the hypocritical stupidity of blocking border crossings, stopping commerce and the tens of thousands of jobs associated with that which was the straw that broke the camel's back.

🍻


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> I think that is true for the good people of Ottawa which includes the herds of politicians and civil servants that live there.
> 
> For the rest of Canada - it couldn't care less that Wellington is blocked up. It's the hypocritical stupidity of blocking border crossings, stopping commerce and the tens of thousands of jobs associated with that which was the straw that broke the camel's back.
> 
> 🍻


Agreed.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Peaceful. Only 11 though, certainly not representative of the rest of the freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493278522122641414


It’s been mentioned before that there is a very dangerous small group leading and infiltrating this and taking advantage of the chaos.


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

From the Angus-Reid Institute today, this caught my attention.



> In the weeks since they inserted themselves directly into the conversation about restrictions, the protesters have seen the pendulum swing against their point of view.


----------



## RangerRay (14 Feb 2022)

> If Trudeau is careful and the powers are used subtly it might work but this is not a government known for its subtlety, for its subtlety,


Ding ding ding! 🛎


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s been mentioned before that there is a very dangerous small group leading and infiltrating this and taking advantage of the chaos.



You wait just a wee bit pal, someone is gonna defend these momos.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> You wait just a wee bit pal, someone is gonna defend these momos.



I just hope none were legal firearms owners... We don't need to be associated with this.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

This isn't the Watts ('65) or Detroit  ('67) riots or the FLQ ('70).  But those are the benchmarks against which the justification and use of extraordinary response activities will be measured.

On one side there are dangerous small groups who might do something violent and murderous, and on the other side there are dangerous large groups looking for excuses to go witch-hunting who might do something deeply illiberal.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Poll: 3 in 4 Canadians Tell Convoy Protesters To “Go Home Now” – Unhappy With Trudeau’s Handling​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Two-in-five (42%) say this of Candace Bergen, leader of the official opposition.*

I actually had to read then re-read that article to confirm it said that.
  I'm still chuckling.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> So in this specific instance, what can Military personnel, I'm assuming either infantry or MPs, do that RCMP or local police services can't?


With tow truck drivers refusing to tow trucks, RCEME assets can be called in to move vehicles


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> You wait just a wee bit pal, someone is gonna defend these momos.


We should treat them as innocent until proven guilty. Plus the guns were probably for self defense or they wanted to keep them close so that if someone broke into their home they wouldn't be able to steal the firearms.😏


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Peaceful. Only 11 though, certainly not representative of the rest of the freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493278522122641414


Just curious where that was.  Sounded like the Coutts border crossing; but they mentioned trailers - so not sure if that meant Tractor-Trailer, or like a mobile home residence type trailer.
  The handguns would only be an issue if not properly stored and not at the address registered.  Long guns (depending type of course, and the possessors being licensed) ammunition, and body armor aren't issues in Canada, unless you brought the long gun to a public event to cause issues...
   Somehow I don't think the Province would give an ATT for a handgun to go to a protest...


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> We should treat them as innocent until proven guilty. Plus the guns were probably for self defense or they wanted to keep them close so that if someone broke into their home they wouldn't be able to steal the firearms.



Oh they're totally innocent until proven guilty. 

But they have no reason to have them for self defense that you or I could reasonably be aware of.

I do not know a tick about firearm laws. I actually feel bad for law abiding gun owners because I know you're gonna get fuckin humped on the back of this. So can someone answer me this: what do you do with your firearms when you go away somewhere? I mean, would it be a legit fear to have the cops come after you if you were robbed while sunning in Cabo?


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

I suspect "Plus the guns were probably for self defense or they wanted to keep them close so that if someone broke into their home they wouldn't be able to steal the firearms." is sarcasm.

For some people, "because I'm allowed to" is sufficient reason.  And it is.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Oh they're totally innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> But they have no reason to have them for self defense that you or I could reasonably be aware of.
> 
> I do not know a tick about firearm laws. I actually feel bad for law abiding gun owners because I know you're gonna get fuckin humped on the back of this. So can someone answer me this: what do you do with your firearms when you go away somewhere? I mean, would it be a legit fear to have the cops come after you if you were robbed while sunning in Cabo?


When I deployed - I would store them with friends who would be around and keep them in their safe.
   As long as you have taken reasonable precautions you really can't get hosed.
A good safe bolted to a concrete floor is a reasonable precaution.
  A thin lock box that isn't securely fastened to the structure generally isn't.

 No one in their right mind would bring guns with them to a protest in Canada - pretty sure it's in the whole Offenses Against Public Order side of the CCofC as well as the Firearms Act.





__





						Firearms Act
					

Federal laws of Canada




					laws-lois.justice.gc.ca
				




I was refreshing myself on the Canadian Criminal Code and ran across a few interesting tidbits.


R.S., c. C-34, s. 51
Intimidating Parliament or legislature

*51* Every one who does an act of violence in order to intimidate Parliament or the legislature of a province is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.


R.S., c. C-34, s. 64
Unlawful Assemblies and Riots​Marginal note:Unlawful assembly


*63* (1) An unlawful assembly is an assembly of three or more persons who, with intent to carry out any common purpose, assemble in such a manner or so conduct themselves when they are assembled as to cause persons in the neighbourhood of the assembly to fear, on reasonable grounds, that they
(a) will disturb the peace tumultuously; or
(b) will by that assembly needlessly and without reasonable cause provoke other persons to disturb the peace tumultuously.

Marginal note:Lawful assembly becoming unlawful
(2) Persons who are lawfully assembled may become an unlawful assembly if they conduct themselves with a common purpose in a manner that would have made the assembly unlawful if they had assembled in that manner for that purpose.
Marginal note:Exception
(3) Persons are not unlawfully assembled by reason only that they are assembled to protect the dwelling-house of any one of them against persons who are threatening to break and enter it for the purpose of committing an indictable offence therein.


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Whoo!



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blockade-arrests-rcmp-monday-1.6351112


----------



## RangerRay (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> …body armor aren't issues in Canada…


In many provinces, only law enforcement or military may possess or acquire body armour. Some provinces brought these laws in to go after street gangs in the 2000’s.


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I suspect "Plus the guns were probably for self defense or they wanted to keep them close so that if someone broke into their home they wouldn't be able to steal the firearms." is sarcasm.
> 
> For some people, "because I'm allowed to" is sufficient reason.  And it is.



Fair dues. I thought that the obvious needs stating.



KevinB said:


> When I deployed - I would store them with friends who would be around and keep them in their safe.
> As long as you have taken reasonable precautions you really can't get hosed.
> A good safe bolted to a concrete floor is a reasonable precaution.
> A thin lock box that isn't securely fastened to the structure generally isn't.
> ...



Ah, OK, seen. And thanks.

When leaving with your friends, was there some mechanism in case they then had a fire or were robbed, raided, etc?


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Fair dues. I thought that the obvious needs stating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Handguns and Prohibited and Restricted Rifles - I had to get an ATT to move them there.
  Non Restricted Long guns -- well I left two with an RCMP member once, then they claimed they had been stolen...
    *oh and he never filed a report  I'm guessing he liked the more than me...


----------



## Blackadder1916 (14 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> In many provinces, only law enforcement or military may possess or acquire body armour. Some provinces brought these laws in to go after street gangs in the 2000’s.



Alberta being one of those provinces.









						Body armour permit
					

Apply for or renew the permit you need to wear or buy body armour in Alberta.




					www.alberta.ca
				





> In Alberta, you must have a permit to buy, transport or wear body armour.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> In many provinces, only law enforcement or military may possess or acquire body armour. Some provinces brought these laws in to go after street gangs in the 2000’s.


Last time I looked the Province's can make Criminal Code amendments.  So it's a confiscation fine aspect, like a parking ticket...


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> I do not know a tick about firearm laws. I actually feel bad for law abiding gun owners because I know you're gonna get fuckin humped on the back of this.


Yea, my trolling moderators aside you're 100% right. Besides the $10K plus that I'm certain to be out one of my favourite hobbies was bringing former (and sometimes still serving) service members with injuries out to the range for a half day of shooting (at my expense). Can't really do that anymore since most of the rifles I used are banned now. Stories like this hurt lawful gun owners the most. 




> So can someone answer me this: what do you do with your firearms when you go away somewhere? I mean, would it be a legit fear to have the cops come after you if you were robbed while sunning in Cabo?



In the story you posted they sound 100% up to no good to me. 

Generally speaking our gun storage laws can be pretty ambiguous and there's cases of firearm owners being charged when theives break in and steal properly secure guns. The most famous case is probably one where the home owner was charged with improper storage even though it took theives 3 days to burn their way into his gun safe with a torch. 

In your article though I'd try to crucify them legally. 
However, a strange legal defense that may work could be if they could prove they were on their way to a shooting range for legal shooting (and had an authorization to travel) but stopped there for a period of time in the same way I could stop at hotels or a cabin ok the way to a shooting competition out of town. 

Prohibited mags will nail them though. Sounds like terrorist wannabes to me.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Last time I looked the Province's can make Criminal Code amendments.  *So it's a confiscation fine aspect, like a parking ticket.*..







__





						Alberta King's Printer:
					





					www.qp.alberta.ca
				




Penalties

23*(1)*  An individual who is guilty of an offence under section 22 is liable to a fine of not more than $10 000 or to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 6 months or to both a fine and imprisonment.

*(2)*  A prosecution under subsection (1) may be commenced within 2 years of the commission of the alleged offence but not afterwards.


----------



## RangerRay (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Last time I looked the Province's can make Criminal Code amendments.  So it's a confiscation fine aspect, like a parking ticket...


That’s correct. They are all provincial statutes much like traffic and hunting laws which will not give you a criminal record if found guilty, but can lead to significant fines and possible jail time, depending on the penalty section of that statute. I have no idea whether these body armour bans have led to jail time in and of themselves.


----------



## Haggis (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Whoo!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blockade-arrests-rcmp-monday-1.6351112


It appears that the RCMP did tens of thousands of dollars of damage while "disabling" the excavators. This was far more than stealing the batteries or siphoning the fuel. This will require major repairs and replacement parts.  The cost is probably near the price of a burned barn.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Trudeau makes history, invokes Emergencies Act to address trucker protests
					

For the first time in Canadian history, the federal government is enacting the Emergencies Act to bring the ongoing trucker convoy protests and blockades to an end.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Note that the MND is not listed on who will be there.


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea, my trolling moderators aside you're 100% right. Besides the $10K plus that I'm certain to be out one of my favourite hobbies was bringing former (and sometimes still serving) service members with injuries out to the range for a half day of shooting (at my expense). Can't really do that anymore since most of the rifles I used are banned now. Stories like this hurt lawful gun owners the most.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You? Trolling? Trolling moderators?

Fake news, bud.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

For the record -- *"Statement from Commander Canadian Special Operations Forces Command"*


> ... ! have recently been advised of allegations that at least three CANSOFCOM members have been, in some form or another, supporting the ongoing protests in Ottawa.
> 
> "If the allegations are accurate, this is wrong and it goes against CAF values and ethics. The following actions are specific to each case:
> 
> ...


Full text also attached in case link doesn't work


----------



## Booter (14 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> It appears that the RCMP did tens of thousands of dollars of damage while "disabling" the excavators. This was far more than stealing the batteries or siphoning the fuel. This will require major repairs and replacement parts.  The cost is probably near the price of a burned barn.


Any operations like that are done with legal consultation and oversight. So you can take your innuendo up the road.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> For the record -- *"Statement from Commander Canadian Special Operations Forces Command"*
> 
> Full text also attached in case link doesn't work


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If the protest hadn’t made life difficult with the locals (the homeless, working poor of that area are hardly the laptop class) and stuck to attacking the gvt I doubt they would have as much negative feelings towards them.
> 
> I said it before.  They lost the narrative when they overstayed their welcome.


I will agree that they should have scaled back on the honking in residential areas early on. The majority of people in that area work for the beast or feed it. So I get the reason why the truckers had limited sympathy for them. The faux feeling for the homeless is a lovely touch of propaganda and I am sure the residents feeling of frustrations with the homeless will return as soon as their "suffering" is no longer useful.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> *Two-in-five (42%) say this of Candace Bergen, leader of the official opposition.*
> 
> I actually had to read then re-read that article to confirm it said that.
> I'm still chuckling.


 _randomized sample of 1,622 Canadian adults who are members of Angus Reid Forum.  _Hmmm self selecting group I suspect.


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Trudeau makes history, invokes Emergencies Act to address trucker protests
> 
> 
> For the first time in Canadian history, the federal government is enacting the Emergencies Act to bring the ongoing trucker convoy protests and blockades to an end.
> ...


…perhaps more interesting (confusing?) is Jagmeet Singh’s comments:



> NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh also characterized the prospect of *federal emergency measures as a failure of leadership*,…


Okay…tracking…


> …but said he supports enacting the exceptional authorities.


Hunh?  Oh wait, more explanation…


> “*The reason why we got to this point is because the prime minister let the siege of Ottawa go on for weeks and weeks without actually doing anything about it.* [He] allowed the convoy to shut down borders without responding appropriately, and in doing so, has allowed the convoy to dig in, to get entrenched, to allow them to spread across the country,” Singh said.


So you trust the guy to suddenly get it right, using the only law that can be used to suspend citizens’ rights at its sole discretion?


----------



## Scott (14 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> It appears that the RCMP did tens of thousands of dollars of damage while "disabling" the excavators. This was far more than stealing the batteries or siphoning the fuel. This will require major repairs and replacement parts.  The cost is probably near the price of a burned barn.


Big old load of FAFO here.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Another tool in the tool belt?


> ... A battle of the music speakers has started up at Parliament this evening as Speaker Trevor Mallard plays the likes of Barry Manilow and the Macarena through speakers inside (New Zealand's) Parliament buildings. He has also been playing Covid-19 vaccination advertisements.
> 
> Mallard said the 15-minute loop of music and Covid-19 ads will be on repeat and possibly play through the night.
> 
> Most of the protestors greeted the tunes with boos and played back _We're Not Going to Take It_ by Twisted Sister on their own speakers ...





Colin Parkinson said:


> ... The faux feeling for the homeless is a lovely touch of propaganda and I am sure the residents at least some protesters' feeling of frustrations with support for the homeless will return as soon as their "suffering" is no longer useful.


Cuts multiple ways ... As always, can't judge the herd by the worst folks, but I heard of more than one case here in town where the convoy folks passing through wanted to donate to homeless shelters & food banks, but didn't want to wear masks when asked as part of the facility rules - good civil disobedience/winning hearts & minds that.


----------



## Haggis (14 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Any operations like that are done with legal consultation and oversight. So you can take your innuendo up the road.


So, enthusiasm and "well intentioned initiative" have never supplanted legal advice and command direction before?  C'mon....


----------



## FJAG (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> So can someone answer me this: what do you do with your firearms when you go away somewhere? I mean, would it be a legit fear to have the cops come after you if you were robbed while sunning in Cabo?


Not to derail this thread but has anyone noticed this article from Sunday.



> Guns manufactured at Savage Arms in Lakefield were inside truck stolen from Peterborough trucking company
> 
> 
> Police have released a description of the tractor trailer that was stolen from the Parkhill Road East trucking yard
> ...



Peterborough is just down the road from Savage Arms in Lakefield. When their production is humming 2,000 firearms can be about three or four days of production so quite a few trucks full of firearms go out of there.

🍻


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I will agree that they should have scaled back on the honking in residential areas early on. The majority of people in that area work for the beast or feed it. So I get the reason why the truckers had limited sympathy for them. The faux feeling for the homeless is a lovely touch of propaganda and I am sure the residents feeling of frustrations with the homeless will return as soon as their "suffering" is no longer useful.


The faux feeling for the small percentage of truckers is a lovely touch of propaganda and I am sure the feeling of apathy about them will return as soon as their "suffering" is no longer useful.

That statement you made is very true on all sides. Just insert whatever cause and victims and run with it.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Several protest trucks moving out of downtown Ottawa as PM invokes Emergencies Act
					

The mayor of Ottawa said some progress is being made in efforts to reduce the size of the trucker convoy protests, with 'several trucks' leaving the city’s downtown core as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked the Emergencies Act to deal with the demonstrations and blockades across Canada.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




This little side deal has been one big confusing mess.


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Feb 2022)

What's the over/under on suspending Habeas Corpus?  at 4:30?


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

I'm not against lifting mandates gradually.  For instance, QR codes and capacity limits should be lifted immediately.  Masking should still be in place to a degree (think crowded transit, LTRs, etc).

I would have also supported the truckers' protest (somewhat) if it had only been _just_ that.

But this hasn't been about truckers or mandates since the original crowdfunding started (or even before that).


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> But this hasn't been about truckers or mandates since the original crowdfunding started (or even before that).



What is it about? Freedom?


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> What is it about? Freedom?



Yeah, no.


----------



## Furniture (14 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> What is it about? Freedom?


I'm sure you could google search it...


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

> But this hasn't been about truckers or mandates since the original crowdfunding started (or even before that).





mariomike said:


> What is it about? Freedom?





> Yeah, no.



If it is not "about truckers or mandates" or freedom.

At least that tells us what it is NOT about.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> What is it about? Freedom?


Opposition of pressured vaccinations
Opposition of vaccine mandates
Anger towards the government because:
-they were voted in contrary to the popular vote
-their handling of Covid
-their vilifying Canadians and attacking anyone with opposing views
-back and forth contradictory rules
-<insert cause here>
Opportunists like right-wing extremists using it to push their views and agenda
An ambiguous feeling of lack of freedom by citizens and a way for them to express it
People who are bored


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Opposition of pressured vaccinations
> Opposition of vaccine mandates
> Anger towards the government because:
> -they were voted in contrary to the popular vote
> ...


That’s good list.


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Opposition of pressured vaccinations
> Opposition of vaccine mandates
> Anger towards the government because:
> -they were voted in contrary to the popular vote
> ...



That. And then some.


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

Whatever it is about, I was told to Google it. So I did.

Not much support, according to the Angus Reid Institute today,



> One-quarter say the strategy of the protesters is something they support (27%), while seven-in-ten (70%) disagree:


----------



## Kilted (14 Feb 2022)

I suppose the emergencies act could be used to force tow trucks to remove trucks.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Removed


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The faux feeling for the small percentage of truckers is a lovely touch of propaganda and I am sure the feeling of apathy about them will return as soon as their "suffering" is no longer useful.
> 
> That statement you made is very true on all sides. Just insert whatever cause and victims and run with it.


All those people on the roads cheering them where just holograms?


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I suppose the emergencies act could be used to force tow trucks to remove trucks.


What would happen if they refused?  I saw something to that effect but don’t know how something like that would even work.


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apparently a lot of US support.


Best not go there.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Best not go there.


Removed


----------



## Kilted (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> What would happen if they refused?  I saw something to that effect but don’t know how something like that would even work.


They get severe fines and/or go to jail.  It's the same mechanism that would be used to introduce conscription.  If it had been used at the start of covid, it could have forced PSW's back on the job and forced other health care workers out of retirement.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> All those people on the roads cheering them where just holograms?




Tell me that these people cared about truckers before?  They (including the cheering holograms) will go back to not caring when they stop being useful propaganda.  You made that argument in regards to the homeless.    I agreed that it is a valid one for any movement or cause including the convoy protest.  

If you can make a sweeping statement about what people care about it stands to reason that it can be made by others.


----------



## Furniture (14 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> They get severe fines and/or go to jail.  It's the same mechanism that would be used to introduce conscription.  If it had been used at the start of covid, it could have forced PSW's back on the job and forced other health care workers out of retirement.


Alternatively, it's more likely to have forced us into a unsustainable position of locking up middle aged and older people who refused to play ball... Which could have easily lead to even more serious protests when our health system was totally incapable of dealing with it. 

Imagine the social media storm when the RCMP start kicking in doors to arrest little old ladies, and single mothers because they wouldn't go back to work.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

From what I have seen the sentiment of ending mandates and getting on with life is a position that is supported, but the method with which this protest has been carried out does not see wide spread support. 

I still hear, read and see substantial support for the "movement" out here in the colonies.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> From what I have seen the sentiment of ending mandates and getting on with life is a position that is supported, but the method with which this protest has been carried out does not see wide spread support.
> 
> I still hear, read and see substantial support for the "movement" out here in the colonies.


100% of Canadians want all of this done with.  How we get there is still a debate though.  But it seems that provinces are making moves towards that.  Ontario is sticking to its plan that it had. 

The feds though need to be more clear about the path out.


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> They (including the cheering holograms) will go back to not caring when they stop being useful propaganda.



"the cheering holograms".


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The feds though need to be more clear about the path out.


I thought JT showed he was going to surf his way out...


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Trudeau makes history, invokes Emergencies Act to address trucker protests
					

For the first time in Canadian history, the federal government is enacting the Emergencies Act to bring the ongoing trucker convoy protests and blockades to an end.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire (14 Feb 2022)

Nearly three-quarters of Canadians want convoy protesters to 'go home now': survey
					

Nearly three-quarters of Canadians want convoy protesters to 'go home now,' according to a new survey from Angus Reid.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> 100% of Canadians want all of this done with.  How we get there is still a debate though.  But it seems that provinces are making moves towards that.  Ontario is sticking to its plan that it had.
> 
> The feds though need to be more clear about the path out.



Ontario is acceleratng its plan but only by a few days.  Capacity/gathering limits change on 17 Feb (vice 21 Feb), the vaccine passport requirement will be lifted on March 1st, masking mandate will remain in place.  Ontario to ease COVID-19 restrictions, end vaccine passports


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

I still don't see what the Emergency Act will enable the police to do that they can't already do in terms of arresting protestors.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I still don't see what the Emergency Act will enable the police to do that they can't already do in terms of arresting protestors.


Apparently they can force tow truck companies to actually come tow trucks.


----------



## QV (14 Feb 2022)

Imagine, you have so much support for your actions you can't even find a single tow company willing to make tons of money towing rigs... without evoking the Emergency Act.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Feb 2022)

So tow trucks are essential services? Or that Emergencies Act can designated whatever it wants as essential and basically force private citizens to work against their will. That's #^$@ing terrifying.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

"First time in history" is a wonderful bit of overblown gas that will be sure to set tongues a-flutter.  Assuming no public welfare emergency was ever declared (I don't know), it could have and would not have been a big deal.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Reports are that many have been threatened if they help.


QV said:


> Imagine, you have so much support for your actions you can't even find a single tow company willing to make tons of money towing rigs... without evoking the Emergency Act.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I still don't see what the Emergency Act will enable the police to do that they can't already do in terms of arresting protestors.


Well BC used the WMA to get rid of hippies when PET brought it in for the FLQ.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> So tow trucks are essential services? Or that Emergencies Act can designated whatever it wants as essential and basically force private citizens to work against their will. That's #^$@ing terrifying.



Ya forcing these guys sounds like short term gain for long term pain.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

> I still don't see what the Emergency Act will enable the police to do that they can't already do in terms of arresting protestors.



Not much; presumably not nothing.  "Lack of need" is the basis for every criticism of using the act I've read today.  Declaring the emergency (and inviting all the "martial law!" rhetoric) is going to look foolish if none of its provisions are well-used.


----------



## KevinB (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Reports are that many have been threatened if they help.


I don't see the EA changing that aspect.
   If someone was threatening the Tow Trucks, one would think that local LE should have been able to deal with that also...


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Now's as good a time as any to link Sean Maloney's "Parameters" article from 1997 (for some history and explication): Domestic Operations: The Canadian Approach.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Feb 2022)

It's not short term gain if they're all magically laid off and there's no one to force to work against their will.

There's also been 0 charges against anyone for threatening tow drivers, just 1 investigation ongoing. A reasonable person would assume the tow drivers just don't want to be involved and the Gov contract to tow a few trucks isn't worth the PR hit in the trucker community. That should speak volumes at the depth of passive support or distrust of the Government to care after they get what they want.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I don't see the EA changing that aspect.
> If someone was threatening the Tow Trucks, one would think that local LE should have been able to deal with that also...


Had more to do with his support comment than this being effective.


----------



## QV (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ya forcing these guys sounds like short term gain for long term pain.


I'm seeing a lot of negative blow back on this on news article comments - which were typically center left in commentary any other time I read them.

They cleared the bridge without any trouble at all before the Act was evoked...


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> It's not short term gain if they're all magically laid off and there's no one to force to work against their will.
> 
> There's also been 0 charges against anyone for threatening tow drivers, just 1 investigation ongoing. A reasonable person would assume the tow drivers just don't want to be involved and the Gov contract to tow a few trucks isn't worth the PR hit in the trucker community. That should speak volumes at the depth of passive support or distrust of the Government to care after they get what they want.


Absolutely.  And in Ottawa I hope they cancel every contract they have with any company that failed to live up to their contract. 

But I agree that compelling them seems a bit of an overreach.  But we’ll see if they do that or not.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Before they run out and cancel contracts, I hope a cooler head figures out who needs who more.


----------



## QV (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Now's as good a time as any to link Sean Maloney's "Parameters" article from 1997 (for some history and explication): Domestic Operations: The Canadian Approach.



From that article, here is the bit on the "Emergencies Act": 

_Emergencies Act. In 1988, the government replaced the War Measures Act with the Emergencies Act, which recognizes four types of emergencies: public welfare (severe natural disasters); public order (threats to the internal security of Canada); international (when intimidation, coercion, or the use of serious force or violence threatens the sovereignty, security, or territorial integrity of Canada); and war (war or other armed conflict, real or imminent, involving Canada or any of its allies).[41] Unlike the War Measures Act, the Emergencies Act specifies the types of powers the government is allowed to exert under each of the four circumstances. For example, in a Public Order Emergency, the Governor in Council is authorized to prohibit public assembly and travel to and from a specified area, and to designate and secure protected places, assume control of public utilities, and impose summary convictions for up to six months of imprisonment. Note that unlimited search and seizure, which was available to security forces under the War Measures Act, is not available under a Public Order Emergency in the Emergencies Act. It is, however, still available under an International Emergency.[42] The new act is structured to deal with situations such as a terrorist threat composed of indigenous Canadians with outside support. Under the new law, officials would have the option of declaring either a Public Order Emergency or an International Emergency in such a situation. Parliament must be convened within seven days of an emergency and a full explanation of the government's reasons and actual response must be provided. Time limits will be placed on the government's response operations, and full consultation must be made with the province in question in the case of a Public Welfare or Public Order Emergency. Any suspension of civil liberties by the government during the emergency is also subject to specific parliamentary oversight._


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Before they run out and cancel contracts, I hope a cooler head figures out who needs who more.


City Manager is already reviewing the contracts and standing offers apparently. But we’ll see. It’s an election year in Ottawa this year and I suspect many councillors will be basing their campaigns on what’s happened her the last few weeks.

Too bad the mayor isn’t running again. Watching him get defeated would have been nice.


----------



## Booter (14 Feb 2022)

Looks like freezing accounts. This isn’t the right play. I mean it’s doing something and looking like you’re doing something. 

I’m not sure making people who feel desperate feel more desperate is a solution.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

The risk with singling out people (eg. tow truck operators) who don't toe the line right now is provoking more of them in the future.

Look up "Irish Democracy".  Assuming it away (out of the estimate) and calling for more heads is the path to self-defeatings COAs.


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "First time in history" is a wonderful bit of overblown gas that will be sure to set tongues a-flutter.  Assuming no public welfare emergency was ever declared (I don't know), it could have and would not have been a big deal.


If the reporters were more unlazy, they would have included the qualifier “for a Public Order Emergency”, one of the four instances:

• Public Welfare Emergency 
• *Public Order Emergency* 
• International Emergency 
• War Emergency


----------



## dapaterson (14 Feb 2022)

The importance of secure communications: A journalist live-tweets Zello.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493364327377772545


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Opposition of pressured vaccinations
> Opposition of vaccine mandates
> Anger towards the government because:
> -they were voted in contrary to the popular vote
> ...



We have been informed it is not about mandates.



PMedMoe said:


> But this hasn't been about truckers or mandates since the original crowdfunding started (or even before that).



Maybe a post-election tantrum.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> We have been informed it is not about mandates.


By who?


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> By who?


Apparently I'm an authority.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Yeah.  By whom?  You asked everyone involved, or just shooting from your backside?


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah.  By whom?  You asked everyone involved, or just shooting from your backside?


He's using a quote from me. It's no worse than some of the other opinions that have been "shot from a backside" on here.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

I see.  At least it wasn't another Media Bias Fact Check (tm).


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I see.  At least it wasn't another Media Bias Fact Check (tm).


Couldn't be bothered anymore. The news is all fake, isn't it?


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> The importance of secure communications: A journalist live-tweets Zello.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493364327377772545



So, they're basically more hopeless than one of my standard weekend exercises where the radios never worked but we got'er done anyways.

Noted


----------



## PPCLI Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Opposition of pressured vaccinations
> Opposition of vaccine mandates
> Anger towards the government because:
> -they were voted in contrary to the popular vote
> ...


A cash grab
A shakedown
A con job


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> The importance of secure communications: A journalist live-tweets Zello.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493364327377772545


That was funny. 

“None of us know how to use that goddamn bitcoin,” says one guy.

Ranchers vs Protesters.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

PPCLI Guy said:


> A cash grab
> A shakedown
> A con job


For sure. The right and left appear to be equally open to getting taken advantage of by movements.

Black Lives Matter sent millions to Canada charity to buy mansion


----------



## PPCLI Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> For sure. The right and left appear to be equally open to getting taken advantage of by movements.
> 
> Black Lives Matter sent millions to Canada charity to buy mansion


WE all fall for it apparently


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)




----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Feb 2022)

To me this is about precedence.  

If we're going to evoke the EA now, for this seemingly annoying yet nonviolent protest what protest do we not evoke it for in the future ?  

Good video by Runkle of the Bailey, worth the 30 mins.


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Peaceful. Only 11 though, certainly not representative of the rest of the freedom fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493278522122641414



Political satire.









						Peaceful guns, democratic machetes seized from Alberta convoy protest
					

COUTTS, AB – Sources report that the RCMP have arrested 11 people at the Coutts border blockade who planned to peacefully participate in the democratic process with firearms, body armour and voluminous ammunition caches.




					thebeaverton.com


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To me this is about precedence.
> 
> If we're going to evoke the EA now, for this seemingly annoying yet nonviolent protest what protest do we not evoke it for in the future ?
> 
> Good video by Runkle of the Bailey, worth the 30 mins.


…breaking down the barriers to use it more easily the next time…and the next…and the next…

#boilingfrog


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

> If we're going to evoke the EA now, for this seemingly annoying yet nonviolent protest what protest do we not evoke it for in the future ?



Pessimistic, you are.  Look how far things had to go before the federal government ran for the mattresses.  We had to get past the small sh!t like fires and mob assaults and autonomous zones down to the really dirty stuff, like street parties and honking and blockades before the trigger was pulled.  This should nudge us up in the next freedom and democracy ladder rankings.

But at least a bar has been set: prevents people from going about their lawful business, impedes trade, at least a possible presence of people with arms who might be militant if provoked.  Maybe an additional one: hinders free passage of international border.  If those apply, Emergency On.  Unless there's a rednecks-only clause.


----------



## Remius (14 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493383145227309056
I’ll let some of the real experts here analyze this.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2022)

Obviously they missed their left turn at Albuquerque and wound up at the Canada-US border instead of the Ukraine-Russian one.


----------



## FJAG (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’ll let some of the real experts here analyze this


It needs no expert analysis. All that matters is how does it look? And it looks bad. 

If there's one event which will make the current government's case on their small arms policy, this is it.

😟


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493383145227309056
> I’ll let some of the real experts here analyze this.


The police should hire one of those Instagram influencers to set their pictures up better.


----------



## kev994 (14 Feb 2022)




----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> It needs no expert analysis. All that matters is how does it look? And it looks bad.
> 
> If there's one event which will make the current government's case on their small arms policy, this is it.
> 
> 😟



That stuff certainly looks tactically scary. 

Someone walked into a high school in Scarborough today and blew away an 18 year old kid with a gun then fled.

I'm sure we can guess which story will be forgotten by tomorrow.


----------



## Quirky (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493383145227309056
> I’ll let some of the real experts here analyze this.


Folks at Coutts are better equipped than the CAF.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493383145227309056
> I’ll let some of the real experts here analyze this.


From the Mountie Alberta info-machine:


----------



## FJAG (14 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Folks at Coutts are better equipped than the CAF.


I don't know about that. We had machetes every bit as good as that one.

😉


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

For the record, from the info-machine




__





						Federal Government declares a public order emergency under the Emergencies Act to end disruptions, blockades and the occupation of the city of Ottawa - Canada.ca
					

The Government of Canada’s top priority remains to keep people and communities safe, and to protect jobs, trade, and our economy.




					www.canada.ca
				



Text also attached in case link doesn't work


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Feb 2022)

Is this the same Alberta RCMP that used a flood to illegally enter homes and seize firearms from people who evacuated?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Is this the same Alberta RCMP that used a flood to illegally enter homes and seize firearms from people who evacuated?


Point??


----------



## lenaitch (14 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Taken from CBC FB page just now


He might be parsing the word "deploy".  All sorts of support and logistical services can be provided to law enforcement so long as the public doesn't see green folks on the street.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Point??


How many of those firearms were secured properly and just seized to make a bigger show? If they're non-restricted and stored properly, why are they being seized? Clearly there was no intent to use them, both Windsor and Coutts were cleared with minimal arrests compared to the protest size and no violence. It's also Alberta, I'd be surprised if your standard freedom protest supporter person DIDNT have a properly locked firearm in their vehicles.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> How many of those firearms were secured properly and just seized to make a bigger show? If they're non-restricted and stored properly, why are they being seized? Clearly there was no intent to use them, both Windsor and Coutts were cleared with minimal arrests compared to the protest size and no violence. It's also Alberta, I'd be surprised if your standard freedom protest supporter person DIDNT have a properly locked firearm in their vehicles.


Yes, and like many firearms owners in Alberta, they have modified mags to once again accept 30 rds, if you think someone who ignores one firearms regulation isn't going to ignore others, I have real-estate in Florida to sell you.


----------



## Spencer100 (15 Feb 2022)

Let's declare EM act.....oh look we found guns.   

Just wait Freeland was pretty happy about getting into the country's financial system with no oversight.  

Trudeau doesn't need the Act to do anything to with the protestors.  So why is he doing it?


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Feb 2022)

Greg Taylor: Why Trudeau declaring a national emergency should have been a non starter
					

A threat to the security of Canada is a very high legal bar to reach




					nationalpost.com
				






> there’s a more fundamental problem with the Emergencies Act, arising from another definition. The Act isn’t about taking over provincial and municipal responsibilities for public order. It’s far broader than that: section 16 defines a Public Order Emergency as arising “from threats to the security of Canada” defined in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act (CSIS Act). Those definitions include “espionage or sabotage,” “foreign influenced activities,” (foreign donors unlikely to meet the definition) “serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective,” and the “overthrow by violence of the constitutionally established system of government in Canada.”
> 
> 
> If that’s what we think is really happening in Ottawa, in Coutts, and elsewhere, then the prime minister might declare a national emergency, but thus far a compelling case that these protests are “threats to the security of Canada” as defined in the CSIS Act hasn’t been made by him or anyone else in a position of authority.
> ...


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2022)

Well we can be pretty certain it won’t be to impose on the Chinese Communist Party friends of the back room Liberal-friendly powerful corporation(s) in Canada…Dick Fadden and other like-minded security hawks in Canada mis-experienced the benevolence of those whom Justine Trudeau ‘admires’ (wished to emulate?).


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Yes, and like many firearms owners in Alberta, they have modified mags to once again accept 30 rds, if you think someone who ignores one firearms regulation isn't going to ignore others, I have real-estate in Florida to sell you.


If someone is willing to drive over the speed limit in their car they're going to ignore other driving rules?


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Feb 2022)

Can't find the article now but one that I read this morning proposed the real problem with the Ottawa protest was that the only people it annoyed were the bureaucrats of Ottawa.  It had no effect on the Canadian economy.  Nobody cared.

The problem only became a problem when the Ambassador Bridge was blockaded.

And Coutts, well, nobody is going to reasonably claim that closing one prairie crossing is going to slow North American trade.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (15 Feb 2022)




----------



## Colin Parkinson (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> How many of those firearms were secured properly and just seized to make a bigger show? If they're non-restricted and stored properly, why are they being seized? Clearly there was no intent to use them, both Windsor and Coutts were cleared with minimal arrests compared to the protest size and no violence. It's also Alberta, I'd be surprised if your standard freedom protest supporter person DIDNT have a properly locked firearm in their vehicles.


There is legislation about protesting while having guns and they would likely be considered in "Transport" mode. Utterly dumb to have a firearm anywhere near a protest, even if locked away and never touched or even mentioned.


----------



## CBH99 (15 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Let's declare EM act.....oh look we found guns.
> 
> Just wait Freeland was pretty happy about getting into the country's financial system with no oversight.
> 
> Trudeau doesn't need the Act to do anything to with the protestors.  So why is he doing it?


Because he’s been surrounded by staff and bureaucrats with a ‘yes man’ mentality that he genuinely didn’t realize how much the entire country _actually_ hates him until just now?  

And now he is panicking as he realizes the polls are wrong, his trusted advisors were idiots, and even loyal Liberal supporters would like to see him replaced?

Or it is all just theatre, which will last a few weeks.  However it will create a precedent that will substantially lower the bar for this to be enacted in the future?

One orchestrated step towards ‘The Great Reset’?

(#theboilingfrog indeed…)



Honestly Spencer100, it’s a good question…


----------



## Booter (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> How many of those firearms were secured properly and just seized to make a bigger show? If they're non-restricted and stored properly, why are they being seized? Clearly there was no intent to use them, both Windsor and Coutts were cleared with minimal arrests compared to the protest size and no violence. It's also Alberta, I'd be surprised if your standard freedom protest supporter person DIDNT have a properly locked firearm in their vehicles.


Yes. The ramming of the police, and the intercepted chatter that lead them to the house where they seized all that had a line in the briefing that said “remember to grab the .22’s so it looks bigger”

It was cleared without violence because audacity and quick action rolled an armoured vehicle to the doorway.

You have literally zero information and we’re able to come up with such a rich narrative about safely stored guns and owners being abused for points

The protestors at the blockade who notified people about this small segment- who also describe these people as dangerous. 

They are on who’s side? 


Spencer100 said:


> Let's declare EM act.....oh look we found guns.
> 
> Just wait Freeland was pretty happy about getting into the country's financial system with no oversight.
> 
> Trudeau doesn't need the Act to do anything to with the protestors.  So why is he doing it?


Ignoring the fact that it all took place before the announcement and discussion today. 

It’s your position that the tiny district crime reduction team was acting on orders from the government? Were the suspects too?


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> It needs no expert analysis. All that matters is how does it look? And it looks bad.
> 
> If there's one event which will make the current government's case on their small arms policy, this is it.
> 
> 😟



This exactly... And why I have always said our worst enemy as firearms owners are in our own ranks.


----------



## kev994 (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> How many of those firearms were secured properly and just seized to make a bigger show? If they're non-restricted and stored properly, why are they being seized? Clearly there was no intent to use them, both Windsor and Coutts were cleared with minimal arrests compared to the protest size and no violence. It's also Alberta, I'd be surprised if your standard freedom protest supporter person DIDNT have a properly locked firearm in their vehicles.


You’re proposing that those pistols aren’t restricted? I don’t think that’s possible. And that the law abiding owners received an ATT to transport their pistol down to the ole protest so they could keep it locked in a box?


----------



## KevinB (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493383145227309056
> I’ll let some of the real experts here analyze this.


1x AR-15 Restricted Rifle.
2x Lever Action Rifles (Non Restricted) 
3x Bolt Action Rifles (Non Restricted)
4x BRN-180 semi auto rifles (used to be NR - not sure now)
1x Type 97 Chinese Bullpup rifle ( I don't know the status of that now)
1 x Criss .45ACP 'rifle' (restricted IIRC) 
1 x 12ga Semi-Atuo Shotgun (Non Restricted)
1 x 1911 style .45ACP handgun w/ 2 magazines 7-8 rds  - restricted
1 x Sig P226R type (might be Chinese clone) 9mm handgun with 10rd mag by it and 2 more on a belt - restricted 
3 sets of Body Armor 
Magazines and Ammunition - several of the AR magazines appear to be full 30 rd capacity (thus prohibited devices) 

SO less than I have in my SUV on a daily basis


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2022)

You can still get a Norinco Type 97 at Cabela’s, so I think they’re still unrestricted…you know, made by the country whose dictatorial leader is admired by Fils Trudeau…

From today.


----------



## ueo (15 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> If someone is willing to drive over the speed limit in their car they're going to ignore other driving rules?


Yes, human nature!


----------



## Happy Guy (15 Feb 2022)

Good article by Mr. Peter MacKay and Mr. Vern White
Peter MacKay and Vern White: What's happening in Ottawa is not freedom, it’s anarchy


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> You’re proposing that those pistols aren’t restricted? I don’t think that’s possible. And that the law abiding owners received an ATT to transport their pistol down to the ole protest so they could keep it locked in a box?


Welcome to Canada, where you still have to prove someone guilty not force them to prove innocence. You'll also note I mentioned only the non-restricted firearms because if they're not in the "bust", that picture looks a lot weaker.


----------



## KevinB (15 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> You’re proposing that those pistols aren’t restricted? I don’t think that’s possible. And that the law abiding owners received an ATT to transport their pistol down to the ole protest so they could keep it locked in a box?


As I mentioned before the Raid press release mentioned trailers, was that meaning a Mobile home type trailer - or a Tractor-Trailer
   I've crossed at Coutts before - Mobile homes are fairly prevalent - and IF it was in a residence - all those firearms may be legal to be possessed there.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Welcome to Canada, where you still have to prove someone guilty not force them to prove innocence. You'll also note I mentioned only the non-restricted firearms because if they're not in the "bust", that picture looks a lot weaker.


Have y'all seen the ads by the GoC about gun control and how the GoC is protecting Canadians. This arrest played right into the government's hand. IF I were a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist I'd say it was a set up to make the RCMP and the GoC look good to Torontonians. BTW Toronto had a targeted shooting yesterday. More fuel for the anti gun fire....


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

Peter MacKay and Vern White: What's happening in Ottawa is not freedom, it’s anarchy​We are a free society that protects and embraces the right to assembly and of peaceful protest. But, after what we have seen in Ottawa and elsewhere over the past 18 days, and to some degree in the past few years at pipelines and rail lines, we are no longer a country that applies the rule of law without fear or prejudice.









						Peter MacKay and Vern White: What's happening in Ottawa is not freedom, it’s anarchy
					

What we have seen in the occupation of Ottawa and blockages at border crossings is not the right of protest, but illegal activity that is a national security…




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> 1x AR-15 Restricted Rifle.
> 2x Lever Action Rifles (Non Restricted)
> 3x Bolt Action Rifles (Non Restricted)
> 4x BRN-180 semi auto rifles (used to be NR - not sure now)
> ...


What I always find funny about these 'Extremist' types is they carried all this weaponry, including plate carriers, modified magazines, etc.  By all accounts they were ready to send it and came prepared to square up.....

Then when SHTF, they thankfully go down without a fight and still end up in prison.  It makes me wonder?  If you're going to go to all this trouble to seriously break the law, why go down without even a whimper?

It's like they all thought this was a game until they realized this isn't Call of Duty and there is no such thing as a respawn.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Welcome to Canada, where you still have to prove someone guilty not force them to prove innocence.


So wait, in all these years you've never crossed through Customs???


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So wait, in all these years you've never crossed through Customs???


None of these people were crossing customs.


----------



## Haggis (15 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Yes, and like many firearms owners in Alberta, they have modified mags to once again accept 30 rds, if you think someone who ignores one firearms regulation isn't going to ignore others, I have real-estate in Florida to sell you.


I'd say that at least some of the firearms in the RCMP released photo were prohibited.  The AR-15 for sure.  Chances are many of the long gun magazines may be as well.  The handguns are restricted at best and there's no way the owners were able to obtain an ATT to attend a protest, so they are there illegally.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What I always find funny about these 'Extremist' types is they carried all this weaponry, including plate carriers, modified magazines, etc.  By all accounts they were ready to send it and came prepared to square up.....
> 
> Then when SHTF, they thankfully go down without a fight and still end up in prison.  It makes me wonder?  If you're going to go to all this trouble to seriously break the law, why go down without even a whimper?
> 
> It's like they all thought this was a game until they realized this isn't Call of Duty and there is no such thing as a respawn.



Most people just want to carry a gun... Very few actually can/want to squeez the trigger...


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Have y'all seen the ads by the GoC about gun control and how the GoC is protecting Canadians. This arrest played right into the government's hand. IF I were a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist I'd say it was a set up to make the RCMP and the GoC look good to Torontonians. BTW Toronto had a targeted shooting yesterday. More fuel for the anti gun fire....


Plenty of people here will latch on to that narrative.  

Bad guys were stopped from doing bad things with guns yet the most pressing thing for some people is how oppressed they feel when a gun gets taken away from someone regardless of the intent or purpose.   

A few things that some miss was the part where they obtained a warrant to raid the trailers and had credible information that these guys had violent intent up to and including violence against police.  

But let’s argue about how those cops are somehow offending legal gun owners.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Plenty of people here will latch on to that narrative.
> 
> Bad guys were stopped from doing bad things with guns yet the most pressing thing for some people is how oppressed they feel when a gun gets taken away from someone regardless of the intent or purpose.
> 
> ...



I am 100% on side with your statement.  I do not want bad guys to have guns. 

What I also don't want is to be lumped in with these guys and have my leagally obtained property be confiscated and destroyed because of them.  Our laws worked!  Awesome.  Why does that mean we need more restrictive laws ?


----------



## Haggis (15 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am 100% on side with your statement.  I do not want bad guys to have guns.
> 
> What I also don't want is to be lumped in with these guys and have my leagally obtained property be confiscated and destroyed because of them.  Our laws worked!  Awesome.  Why does that mean we need more restrictive laws ?


_*TANGENT*_ If you want to get _really_ spun up about the anti-gun narrative, be sure to watch the sitting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security at 11:00 AM today.  The Coalition for Gun Control and Polysesouvient are scheduled to make presentations in the second half. *TANGENT ENDS*


----------



## Navy_Pete (15 Feb 2022)

Interesting series of interviews with a number of convoy protestors about how their evangelical christian faith ties in with it;


For many inside the Freedom Convoy, faith fuels the resistance​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/faith-convoy-truckers-1.6350538


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am 100% on side with your statement.  I do not want bad guys to have guns.
> 
> What I also don't want is to be lumped in with these guys and have my leagally obtained property be confiscated and destroyed because of them.  Our laws worked!  Awesome.  Why does that mean we need more restrictive laws ?


Agreed.  My opinions on gun laws were changed because reasonable gun owners made their case to me.  And legal gun owners should not be lumped in either.  

 But legal gun owners that try and defend, deflect and turn this event (and other events) into some sort of conspiracy planned by the local det with direction by a government cabal do themselves (not pointing to anyone here) no favours and don’t realize they are inadvertently lumping themselves in with those guys even if peripherally.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (15 Feb 2022)

Another point, Alberta requires a permit for body armour.  I wonder, if those carriers have real plates, if the owners have permits.


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Interesting series of interviews with a number of convoy protestors about how their evangelical christian faith ties in with it;
> 
> 
> For many inside the Freedom Convoy, faith fuels the resistance​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/faith-convoy-truckers-1.6350538


This one gives some details about Coutts.  I don’t know the author or what “The Line” is as far as reporting is concerned but she seemed to give a decent account.  It seems to come to the same conclusion about faith being a driver.









						Dispatch from the Coutts Front: God, guns, Jenga and Bob Seger
					

The RCMP officer was clear: he could not guarantee my safety beyond his checkpoint. He wanted me back in one hour.




					theline.substack.com


----------



## Booter (15 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> As I mentioned before the Raid press release mentioned trailers, was that meaning a Mobile home type trailer - or a Tractor-Trailer
> I've crossed at Coutts before - Mobile homes are fairly prevalent - and IF it was in a residence - all those firearms may be legal to be possessed there.


Are they legal while threatening people? Since you were able to clarify the details on the Mountie at the range maybe you should be reaching out to your sources you have to see why your comments on this situation are wrong- I can’t go into the details here on the forum. But I know you know you can look into this for clarity.

Maybe “could” is a better word than “should”. I mean that in a productive way. The speculation( and not from Kevin) is nuts in here.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> None of these people were crossing customs.


Not saying they were, just that your argument doesn't hold water.

If this was a meth bust you'd probably not be casting shade on how they scored it.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Not saying they were, just that your argument doesn't hold water.
> 
> If this was a meth bust you'd probably not be casting shade on how they scored it.


2 red herrings, you've almost got a hat trick!


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

Ottawa protest fundraising website 'Family Expense Support' goes down
					

The new fundraising website announced by a group of self-described Ottawa convoy organizers was inaccessible Tuesday, with no way for donors or recipients to access the pledge pages.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Have to give them credit for being persistant.


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ottawa protest fundraising website 'Family Expense Support' goes down
> 
> 
> The new fundraising website announced by a group of self-described Ottawa convoy organizers was inaccessible Tuesday, with no way for donors or recipients to access the pledge pages.
> ...


"The minimum amount to pledge to donate on the new site is $250"

Geez, they're not asking for much are they??


----------



## KevinB (15 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Are they legal while threatening people? Since you were able to clarify the details on the Mountie at the range maybe you should be reaching out to your sources you have to see why your comments on this situation are wrong- I can’t go into the details here on the forum. But I know you know you can look into this for clarity.
> 
> Maybe “could” is a better word than “should”. I mean that in a productive way. The speculation( and not from Kevin) is nuts in here.


I already pointed out that in my opinion, --> anyone bringing a gun to a protest is already making a major error in judgement.  Absolutely nothing good will occur with that COA.  Regardless if the firearms are lawful to possess or not.

It is now clear that none of the trailers raided was someone's permanent residence - thus the restricted firearms are highly unlikely to be in the location authorized - nor is anyone going to be able to claim they where "simply on the way to their range and back".
   My point in my previous comments had simply been pointing out there could have been some lawful rational for the firearms - and we didn't have enough info at that point.

I'm also a tie go the runner sort of guy when it comes to LE, frankly IF I was running the raid, people would probably have had a lot more complaints.
  With threats to LE made (allegedly) it really ups the response, and people who play stupid games, end up with stupid prizes  

I'm also a deal with things at the lowest level guy- I'm irritated that any of this got that far.


----------



## FSTO (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> This one gives some details about Coutts.  I don’t know the author or what “The Line” is as far as reporting is concerned but she seemed to give a decent account.  It seems to come to the same conclusion about faith being a driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What media do you listen to? Jen Gerson and Matt Gurney are legit correspondents. Jenn is not as regular on CBC and she once was and Matt is a columnist for the NP, and a regular guest on TVO's The Agenda and CBC Radio. The Line is a compellation from both Jenn and Matt and I find it a "Just the Facts Ma'am" reporting.


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> What media do you listen to? Jen Gerson and Matt Gurney are legit correspondents. Jenn is not as regular on CBC and she once was and Matt is a columnist for the NP, and a regular guest on TVO's The Agenda and CBC Radio. The Line is a compellation from both Jenn and Matt and I find it a "Just the Facts Ma'am" reporting.


Like I said.  I didn’t know her or the Line.  I do know Matt Gurney.  This was sent to me by a friend who is subscribed to that sub stack.

I wasn’t saying that to imply she wasn’t legit.  I was just pointing out a caveat given several members’ innate distrust of anything media and my not looking too far into her or the Line.  That was it.

I thought the article was very good and informative which is why I thought sharing it was appropriate  Despite me not really knowing the source.


----------



## Altair (15 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493613937543290882
Always weird to see Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau on the same page, but like I said, those truckers have an amazing ability to bring people together...against them.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

>Peter MacKay and Vern White: What's happening in Ottawa is not freedom, it’s anarchy​
Not really "anarchy".  Given the history of inconsistent responses to similar protests in Canada, a more appropriate word is "anarcho-tyranny" (selective application of the law), vs  "rule of law" which requires consistent application of the law.


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

Breaking…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493620941628268545


----------



## Altair (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Breaking…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493620941628268545


Matter of principle or matter of about to be shown the door?

Either way, put someone competent in charge, ya?


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493613937543290882
> Always weird to see Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau on the same page, but like I said, those truckers have an amazing ability to bring people together...against them.


and with them ...


----------



## Altair (15 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> and with them ...











						Blockade Backlash: Three-in-four Canadians tell convoy protesters, ‘Go Home Now’ - Angus Reid Institute
					

Two-thirds say Justin Trudeau’s conduct has “worsened” situation; several public figures condemned February 14, 2022 – If the goal of the Freedom Convoy was to capture the attention of millions




					angusreid.org
				






> If the goal of the Freedom Convoy was to capture the attention of millions of people in Canada and around the globe – mission accomplished.
> 
> If, however, the goal was to build support for their demands to end pandemic-related restrictions – it has backfired utterly.
> 
> ...


😐


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Blockade Backlash: Three-in-four Canadians tell convoy protesters, ‘Go Home Now’ - Angus Reid Institute
> 
> 
> Two-thirds say Justin Trudeau’s conduct has “worsened” situation; several public figures condemned February 14, 2022 – If the goal of the Freedom Convoy was to capture the attention of millions
> ...




Your Canadians?  My Canadians?  Or Real Canadians?


----------



## kkwd (15 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> From the Mountie Alberta info-machine:
> View attachment 68711


It says at the end of the first paragraph "criminal organization". It mentions it again the second paragraph. What exactly does this mean? Are the arressted people an actual organized gang of criminals?


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> It says at the end of the first paragraph "criminal organization". It mentions it again the second paragraph. What exactly does this mean? Are the arressted people an actual organized gang of criminals?


Guessing only, but could have ties to other groups?


----------



## kkwd (15 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Guessing only, but could have ties to other groups?


That will come out in court no doubt.


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Your Canadians?  My Canadians?  Or Real Canadians?



*For detailed results by age, gender, region, education, and other demographics, 


			https://angusreid.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2022.02.14_Trucker_Protest_tables.pdf
		

*


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> 2 red herrings, you've almost got a hat trick!


I guess I had to go for quantity as I couldn't compete with the quality of your initial red herring.




PuckChaser said:


> Is this the same Alberta RCMP that used a flood to illegally enter homes and seize firearms from people who evacuated?


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> (72%) say the time has come for protesters to “go home, they have made their point.”



The government only just started freezing citizen bank accounts without a warrant.

Going home now would mean people miss out on an opportunity to see how far the government is willing to go.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

"Just watch me."

"Challenge accepted."


----------



## KevinB (15 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What I always find funny about these 'Extremist' types is they carried all this weaponry, including plate carriers, modified magazines, etc.  By all accounts they were ready to send it and came prepared to square up.....
> 
> Then when SHTF, they thankfully go down without a fight and still end up in prison.  It makes me wonder?  If you're going to go to all this trouble to seriously break the law, why go down without even a whimper?
> 
> It's like they all thought this was a game until they realized this isn't Call of Duty and there is no such thing as a respawn.


Honestly I think part of it is the copy cat mentality -- there have been a bunch of "open carry" marches and protests down here.   People seem to believe that bringing weapons makes them more credible.

Caveat, I carry a gun everywhere I go, so color me a hypocrite, but I'm doing it legally, and not out brandishing things -- I will simply avoid events that I think would be a bad place to be armed as an individual...


 Generally I don't get the view that bringing a weapon makes one credible.  This goes double for illegal weapons, or legal weapon at a location unlawfully, If anything it diminishes the credibility of the message - and makes one look like an extremist from the fringe.   Also having folks with non lawfully brought weapons to event like these further hurt the message that some in the more moderate side are trying to get out.  It just hurts credibility period.


My personal opinion is one should never bring a weapon overtly as an individual unless one is planning on using it - because everyone who sees you is probably going to be thinking that's what your planning already...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Honestly I think part of it is the copy cat mentality -- there have been a bunch of "open carry" marches and protests down here.   People seem to believe that bringing weapons makes them more credible.
> 
> Caveat, I carry a gun everywhere I go, so color me a hypocrite, but I'm doing it legally, and not out brandishing things -- I will simply avoid events that I think would be a bad place to be armed as an individual...


And the weapon you carry is legal, that's the big difference.  Having a bunch of guns at a entry of sovereign border that you've decided to blockade?  Well that's an entirely different story. 

That sounds a lot like the Fenians or the Hunters Lodge to me.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> But let’s argue about how those cops are somehow offending legal gun owners.


I`m not arguing that at all. Just pointing out what some will think.


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I`m not arguing that at all. Just pointing out what some will think.


Wasn’t aimed at you.  It was a general statement to support what you said.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Wasn’t aimed at you.  It was a general statement to support what you said.


Roger that. Thanks. 

This is as close to civil war as I have ever seen. I lived at the time of the FLQ crisis (I was 13) and it wasn`t even close to this. That was seen as a Quebec problem and there weren`t any FLQ terrorists in Saskatchewan at the time.

Trust me this is MUCH worse.


----------



## KevinB (15 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> It says at the end of the first paragraph "criminal organization". It mentions it again the second paragraph. What exactly does this mean? Are the arressted people an actual organized gang of criminals?


Looking at the language - they are considering the Armed Blockade Individuals to be a Criminal Organization - which by letter of the Law isn't wrong.


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Roger that. Thanks.
> 
> This is as close to civil war as I have ever seen. I lived at the time of the FLQ crisis (I was 13) and it wasn`t even close to this. That was seen as a Quebec problem and there weren`t any FLQ terrorists in Saskatchewan at the time.
> 
> Trust me this is MUCH worse.


I get together with some friends every week and our conversations are varied.  We had one a few weeks ago about US experts, former int types etc all saying that the US is slowly ramping up various stages of events that could lead to civil war.

We discussed what that might look like.  East vs west, south vs north, urban vs rural or specific states going on their own.

My thesis was that we are seing divide along ideological and political lines.  The types of conflict we might see will be like what we are seeing now.  Disruptions, and localized efforts and potentially very dangerous as they escalate.

The inaction in Ottawa as an example.  It’s leading the locals to get a bit more brazen as this goes on.  Potential putting both sides into direct conflict. 

On a more macro or national level we are seing these events being infiltrated by bad actors who seem to be more than happy to cause damage. 

Add a weak government to the mix and it becomes a quick rise into something more.

Now it would seem we are adding religion and faith into the mix where one side is starting to see this as an existential war of good vs evil.  Religious right wing radicalism is a thing that is seemingly taking more prominence in the language.

I don’t know if this is worse than the FLQ crisis as it was a couple of years before my time.  But I agree that it is bad enough.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> And the weapon you carry is legal, that's the big difference.  Having a bunch of guns at a entry of sovereign border that you've decided to blockade?  Well that's an entirely different story.
> 
> That sounds a lot like the Fenians or the Hunters Lodge to me.



Im going to have to look into this Fenians lodge  Sounds right up my alley


----------



## Altair (15 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Your Canadians?  My Canadians?  Or Real Canadians?


Canadians.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Im going to have to look into this Fenians lodge  Sounds right up my alley


Are you Irish?  Speak with a Boston Accent?  Devoutly Republican? Believe that overthrowing the Crown is a viable path towards enlightenment?

YOU'RE HIRED!


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I get together with some friends every week and our conversations are varied.  We had one a few weeks ago about US experts, former int types etc all saying that the US is slowly ramping up various stages of events that could lead to civil war.
> 
> We discussed what that might look like.  East vs west, south vs north, urban vs rural or specific states going on their own.
> 
> ...


It is definitely fomenting into a far less secure future. 

I’m still trying to figure out if the Feds were deliberately letting things roll along at first to support a Machiavellian set-up to hyper-exponentially ramp up to secure the relatively unchallenged/unchecked powers of the EA, or non-Machiavellian ineptitude and weak, dithering leadership.   Not sure which is worse.  🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> It is definitely fomenting into a far less secure future.
> 
> I’m still trying to figure out if the Feds were deliberately letting things roll along at first to support a Machiavellian set-up to hyper-exponentially ramp up to secure the relatively unchallenged/unchecked powers of the EA, or non-Machiavellian ineptitude and weak, dithering leadership.   Not sure which is worse.  🤷🏻‍♂️


I’m going to go with yes.


----------



## QV (15 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Roger that. Thanks. This is as close to civil war as I have ever seen. I lived at the time of the FLQ crisis (I was 13) and it wasn`t even close to this. That was seen as a Quebec problem and there weren`t any FLQ terrorists in Saskatchewan at the time. Trust me this is MUCH worse.



Wasn't there about 200 bombs go off and kidnapped politicians during FLQ?


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Are you Irish?  Speak with a Boston Accent?  Devoutly Republican? Believe that overthrowing the Crown is a viable path towards enlightenment?
> 
> YOUR HIRED!



Jaysus and here wuz me tinkin dat all de Boston Oirish wuz Democrats!


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Are you Irish? (1)  Speak with a Boston Accent? (2) Devoutly Republican? (3) Believe that overthrowing the Crown is a viable path towards enlightenment? (4)
> 
> YOUR HIRED!


(1) Yes;
(2) No, more Chedabucto twang;
(3) In the sense that I don't support the monarchy, yes.  Am I member of the Republican party, No;
(4) That sounds like a lot of work, and the 6 Nations are on... Can we not let other people settle this on the pitch ?

I probably should have written that in French hahaha


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Im going to have to look into this Fenians lodge  Sounds right up my alley



It's a good craic so it is


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I lived at the time of the FLQ crisis (I was 13) and it wasn`t even close to this.



I was 16, and in the RCASC ( militia ). All I knew ( at that time ) about the FLQ was what was on the news.  My father had it on because he frequently stayed overnight in Montreal.

I was too busy with school and other things to pay much attention to events outside the neighbourhood.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

> Trust me this is MUCH worse.



In what way?  The number of bombings? Kidnappings? Deaths?


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

> Now it would seem we are adding religion and faith into the mix where one side is starting to see this as an existential war of good vs evil.



Yes.  It's a strange religion, admittedly, but they have their dogma and their heresies and they truly believe they are, as they put it, "on the right side of history".  Fanatical to the point of driving people out who fail to fall in line.


----------



## Czech_pivo (15 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Are you Irish?  Speak with a Boston Accent?  Devoutly Republican? Believe that overthrowing the Crown is a viable path towards enlightenment?
> 
> YOU'RE HIRED!


I lived in Boston for a number of years (wife is from MA) in the late 90's.  The only time I went into an Boston Irish pub was just before my wedding day when my best man flew in from Toronto and wanted to go for a pint in an Irish pub so I agreed. We walk in (mid-afternoon and not many people) and head towards the bar. I tell him to order me a pint and I head to the bathroom. I come back and he's at the bar with our pints, no one else at the bar except the bartender, who's a bit chatty and has a light Irish accent. I start to drink my pint and start to take in all the framed pics hanging behind the bar when I lock eyes on one with Martin McGuinness and the bartender with their arms across each others shoulders.  I put my pint down, put a twenty on the bar and tell my friend to finish his pint and meet me outside.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> In what way?  The number of bombings? Kidnappings? Deaths?



Like I said this was seen as a Quebec issue. 

This has the potential to see Canadians setting upon one another violently. 

Minimize it if you will.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Feb 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> I lived in Boston for a number of years (wife is from MA) in the late 90's.  The only time I went into an Boston Irish pub was just before my wedding day when my best man flew in from Toronto and wanted to go for a pint in an Irish pub so I agreed. We walk in (mid-afternoon and not many people) and head towards the bar. I tell him to order me a pint and I head to the bathroom. I come back and he's at the bar with our pints, no one else at the bar except the bartender, who's a bit chatty and has a light Irish accent. I start to drink my pint and start to take in all the framed pics hanging behind the bar when I lock eyes on one with Martin McGuinness and the bartender with their arms across each others shoulders.  I put my pint down, put a twenty on the bar and tell my friend to finish his pint and meet me outside.



One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Feb 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> I lived in Boston for a number of years (wife is from MA) in the late 90's.  The only time I went into an Boston Irish pub was just before my wedding day when my best man flew in from Toronto and wanted to go for a pint in an Irish pub so I agreed. We walk in (mid-afternoon and not many people) and head towards the bar. I tell him to order me a pint and I head to the bathroom. I come back and he's at the bar with our pints, no one else at the bar except the bartender, who's a bit chatty and has a light Irish accent. I start to drink my pint and start to take in all the framed pics hanging behind the bar when I lock eyes on one with Martin McGuinness and the bartender with their arms across each others shoulders.  I put my pint down, put a twenty on the bar and tell my friend to finish his pint and meet me outside.



Sadly for the IRA, despite their enthusiasm for 'The Cause',  the Boston Irish were crap at getting SAMs and other high value weapons to the UK through the various FBI sting operations.

That reminds me, I'll have to find out how to contribute to the FBI benevolent fund, or whatever it's called, for helping to make sure that I made it this far!


----------



## Czech_pivo (15 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter


Yes, I understand and accept that. 
I come from an Anglican/Roman Catholic marriage, Dad the red-haired, blue eyed Anglican and Mom the RC.  
My parents raised my brother and I to love God and to accept/embrace both Religions and to treat both with respect, never putting one before the other.  As kids we attended both services, even attending Baptist and Presbyterian services on occasion.  It gave us a wonderful view on Religion, one that still sticks with me today, that I don't necessarily need someone standing at the front of the Church tell me how I should worship or what I should worship.  That all I need is to follow what I believe works for me and for me to 'own' my personal relationship with God. It has given me the sense to stop and to try to look at things from the 'other side', to think as independent as possible.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

> This has the potential to see Canadians setting upon one another violently.



Sure, potential.  Several checkpoints for flare-up have already been passed.  Feeding the "OMG what might happen?" frenzy just builds a narrative that gives governments excuses to behave poorly.


----------



## KevinB (15 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Wasn't there about 200 bombs go off and kidnapped politicians during FLQ?


Deputy Premier of Quebec (Pierre Laporte) was kidnapped and later killed, and a British Diplomat was kidnapped (James Cross).
   The FLQ had stolen a quantity of explosives and weapons from the CAF - and at least two EID's where detonated - one injuring a CAF EOD Soldier who was disarming it.

Honestly I think 99.99% for the blame for the FLQ movement belongs at the feet of Charles De Gualle with his idiot speech in 1967 - I encourage people to piss on his grave.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

> I encourage people to piss on his grave.



One can also fart in his general direction.  Which, from the west of Canada, can be satisfying for other reasons...


----------



## Happy Guy (15 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Deputy Premier of Quebec (Pierre Laporte) was kidnapped and later killed, and a British Diplomat was kidnapped (James Cross).
> The FLQ had stolen a quantity of explosives and weapons from the CAF - and at least two EID's where detonated - one injuring a CAF EOD Soldier who was disarming it.
> 
> Honestly I think 99.99% for the blame for the FLQ movement belongs at the feet of Charles De Gualle with his idiot speech in 1967 - I encourage people to piss on his grave.


Charles DeGaulle was a hypocrite.  He had a profound influence in Québec independence movement and yet he severely cracked down on Breton nationalism.


----------



## lenaitch (15 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Wasn't there about 200 bombs go off and kidnapped politicians during FLQ?


Depending on which source you use, 'about 200' bombings and 6-8 killed between 1963 and 1970.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (15 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Depending on which source you use, 'about 200' bombings and 6-8 killed between 1963 and 1970.



While the FLQ bombing campaign (_though "campaign" suggests a level of sophisticated organization and coordination - actually rare in the FLQ_) occurred over several years, there was an uptick in the bombings in 1969 extending into 1970 with the major one being at the Montreal Stock Exchange in February 1969.   Montreal at the time was almost the wild, wild west (or should that be the wild, wild east) of lawlessness, with bank robberies and gangland murders (the good old proper Mafia kind) mixed into the demonstrations, riots and other mayhem coming from political and social dissatisfaction.  Throw in good old corruption along with an underpaid police force who went on strike and you have the makings of why the army was called out "in aid of the civil power" in October 1969 - a year before the October Crisis.



			https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1969-montreals-night-of-terror


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Deputy Premier of Quebec (Pierre Laporte) was kidnapped and later killed, and a British Diplomat was kidnapped (James Cross).
> The FLQ had stolen a quantity of explosives and weapons from the CAF - and at least two EID's where detonated - one injuring a CAF EOD Soldier who was disarming it.
> 
> Honestly I think 99.99% for the blame for the FLQ movement belongs at the feet of Charles De Gualle with his idiot speech in 1967 - I encourage people to piss on his grave.


The FLQ was around well before De Gaule’s speech.  I think the speech just emboldened them.  The 60s and 70s saw a lot of left wing terrorism.  Seemed like a world wide struggle (in europe in particular) with very left wing and socialist movements.  The FLQ certainly was inspired from that and from the birth of Revolution Tranquille.


----------



## Happy Guy (15 Feb 2022)

I've had enough of this protest.  This has pushed me to my limits of tolerance.  I'm going to buy a lottery ticket and win!


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Feb 2022)

Seems like for another thread split...


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The FLQ was around well before De Gaule’s speech.  I think the speech just emboldened them.  The 60s and 70s saw a lot of left wing terrorism.  Seemed like a world wide struggle (in europe in particular) with very left wing and socialist movements.  The FLQ certainly was inspired from that and from the birth of Revolution Tranquille.


Some people say it began in 1960 with the notion of Maîtres Chez Nous, but I would argue that the roots of the modern separatist movement can be found circa 1940 when Mackenzie-King, while allowing Canada to play a HUGE role in prosecuting the Second World War, declined any leadership roles at all. He was, probably correctly, terrified of a repeat of the 1917 conscription crisis, and even though he got one it was, relatively minor and Québec remained only quietly anti-allied.

The real roots of separatism (Québec nationalism) can be found in 1774: The Quebec Act.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The FLQ was around well before De Gaule’s speech.  I think the speech just emboldened them.  The 60s and 70s saw a lot of left wing terrorism.  Seemed like a world wide struggle (in europe in particular) with very left wing and socialist movements.  The FLQ certainly was inspired from that and from the birth of Revolution Tranquille.


D'Arcy Jenishs book "_The Making of the October Crisis: Canada's Long Nightmare of terrorism at the hand of the FLQ_" gives a good concise history of the events leading up to October 1970 and the aftermath.  Includes lots of incidents that took place that I was totally unaware of.


----------



## QV (15 Feb 2022)

I think it's safe to say the Freedom Convoy is not on the same level as the FLQ crisis (or WW1 or WW2, the only other times similar Acts were enabled).


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Feb 2022)

The divisive tactics Liberal MP Joel Lightbound spoke about could very well usher in more violent confrontations.

Left wing vs right wing.
Cities vs rural.
Gun owners vs non-gun owners.
Pro life vs pro choice.
Religion vs science.
and so on.

In fairness the CPC may have partook in this behavior while they were in power as well (I don't recall it myself), but the currently government is absolutely pushing to divide Canadians along all these lines and more. 

Whats it leave? A portion of citizens who feel increasingly ostracized. Verbally and publicly insulted. Called uncanadian. Made to feel their beliefs and views are "unacceptable".

Everyone in the CAF knows what happens when you treat people like children; they act like it.
People are getting accused of being on the fringe, so what do they do? Buy a sticker and wear the accusation/insult like a badge. 

The invoking of the EA plays perfectly into how scared of the fringe/right wing the government has told people they should be. 

This what _ Canada moving forward - for everyone_ looks like.


----------



## Czech_pivo (15 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The FLQ was around well before De Gaule’s speech.  I think the speech just emboldened them.  The 60s and 70s saw a lot of left wing terrorism.  Seemed like a world wide struggle (in europe in particular) with very left wing and socialist movements.  The FLQ certainly was inspired from that and from the birth of Revolution Tranquille.


Mayer-Bader gang or Red Army Fraction anyone?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (15 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> The real roots of separatism (Québec nationalism) can be found in 1774: The Quebec Act.


Absolutely


----------



## Haggis (15 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> While the FLQ bombing campaign (_though "campaign" suggests a level of sophisticated organization and coordination - actually rare in the FLQ_) occurred over several years, there was an uptick in the bombings in 1969 extending into 1970 with the major one being at the Montreal Stock Exchange in February 1969.   Montreal at the time was almost the wild, wild west (or should that be the wild, wild east) of lawlessness, with bank robberies and gangland murders (the good old proper Mafia kind) mixed into the demonstrations, riots and other mayhem coming from political and social dissatisfaction.  Throw in good old corruption along with an underpaid police force who went on strike and you have the makings of why the army was called out "in aid of the civil power" in October 1969 - a year before the October Crisis.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1969-montreals-night-of-terror


I was living in Montréal during the police strike and FLQ Crisis (the professionalism exhibited by the soldiers who patrolled and protected VPs in my neighbourhood in October 1970 was a strong influence on me joining the CAF).  Indeed there were a lot of bombing and other violence, but it was not generally terrorists.  There was a Mob war underway concurrently.  Many, many car bombs on the major highways in Montréal.  I recall hearing a large boom ahead of us on the highway and passing a still flaming car in the collector lane of the eastbound 20.  Montréal experienced similar violence during the more recent biker wars.


----------



## FJAG (15 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> I was living in Montréal during the police strike and FLQ Crisis (the professionalism exhibited by the soldiers who patrolled and protected VPs in my neighbourhood in October 1970 was a strong influence on me joining the CAF)


Thank you. And, you're welcome.

😁


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I think it's safe to say the Freedom Convoy is not on the same level as the FLQ crisis (or WW1 or WW2, the only other times similar Acts were enabled).


Although through perpetuation of legislative battle honours, it is now…


----------



## Haggis (15 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> Thank you. And, you're welcome.
> 
> 😁


At least you didn't quote the passage about the Mob hit.🤣

On a related note, three of my "connected"  junior high classmates from the 1970's went on to do hard time as adults.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (15 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> At least you didn't quote the passage about the Mob hit.🤣











						Montreal car bombings - a list
					

Car bombs  combine every Montrealer's favourite thing, cars, with everybody's least favourite thing, bombs. ( Did you write that lead al...




					coolopolis.blogspot.com
				






> On a related note, three of my "connected" junior high classmates from the 1970's went on to do hard time as adults.



Only one of my junior high classmates was later convicted of murder. . .  that I know of.


----------



## RangerRay (15 Feb 2022)

It stills has not been explained to me why the Emergencies Act was enacted. Is everything really beyond the abilities of regular or even State of Emergency policing?  From where I sit, it didn’t look the the police tried that hard except for Windsor. And that was only because the Yanks said clean up your shit or we will  clean it up for you. 

I am genuinely wondering if this was really necessary. Either way, Trudeau looks very weak.


----------



## RangerRay (15 Feb 2022)

Some more information on the arrests in Alberta. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-charges-laid-court-appearance-bail-1.6352482


----------



## QV (15 Feb 2022)

There is a lot of disinformation out there about what the Freedom Convoy is demanding. Here it is straight from the horses mouth:


----------



## Altair (15 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> It stills has not been explained to me why the Emergencies Act was enacted. Is everything really beyond the abilities of regular or even State of Emergency policing?  From where I sit, it didn’t look the the police tried that hard except for Windsor. And that was only because the Yanks said clean up your shit or we will  clean it up for you.
> 
> I am genuinely wondering if this was really necessary. Either way, Trudeau looks very weak.


LPC NDP circles are most pleased about the EA, at least over on reddit.

You know, the people PMJT is courting to vote LPC. 

This naturally plays poorly with the CPC crowd, but that crowd was never voting LPC.


----------



## Haggis (15 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Montreal car bombings - a list
> 
> 
> Car bombs  combine every Montrealer's favourite thing, cars, with everybody's least favourite thing, bombs. ( Did you write that lead al...
> ...


I'm not surprised that someone took the time to catalogue them. I recall more than that, as well as a number of letterbox bombs.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2022)

> I am genuinely wondering if this was really necessary.



Cynical guess: the blowback from the US over the Ambassador Bridge blockade caused them to sh!t themselves (figuratively).


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Feb 2022)

Funny how the left has no use for the military until it’s time to use them on their own citizens, isn’t it?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Funny how the left has no use for the military until it’s time to use them on their own citizens, isn’t it?


It’s pretty thin of the Government to say ‘but still not the military’…but for a Public Order Emergency and not calling in the military what else is there…oh wait, city police, OPP and RCMP…police forces that were all asked for and provided prior to the Emergencies Act being enacted…and now the ability to suspend citizen rights and spend, spend, spend without pesky Parliamentary approvals.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> It stills has not been explained to me why the Emergencies Act was enacted. Is everything really beyond the abilities of regular or even State of Emergency policing?  From where I sit, it didn’t look the the police tried that hard except for Windsor. And that was only because the Yanks said clean up your shit or we will  clean it up for you.
> 
> I am genuinely wondering if this was really necessary. Either way, Trudeau looks very weak.


Going After the Truckers Money.
Anyone who donated or is associated with supporting (can be stringent guidelines or as loose as they want) can have thier accounts frozen without court order.
I have friends who have donated to the cause via GiveSendGo, they are going to be moving money into credit unions that might be exempt (provincially regulated). They have donated small amounts less than $50. How far will Dear Leader go to quash his enemies.








						Banks grapple with new Emergencies Act powers to curb the flow of funds to support blockades
					

After Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked the Emergencies Act on Monday, Canada’s banks will have to balance Ottawa’s desire to choke off funding against the interests of customers who may be connected to demonstrations in a variety of ways




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




And a quote from anon"
The only people helping him are his henchmen in the liberal party and the NDP, which at this point is just an extension to the liberal party.
The problem I see is that there are so many people involved in the covid scam (federal, provincial, judiciary, media) that they will do anything to not get exposed, including supporting him in whatever lunatic policies he proposes, if that gives them any hope of saving their asses.
I do think the purpose of him invoking the act is not the truckers.
He'll use the emergency act to weaponize the government and come after people's bank accounts if they don't agree with the narrative, CCP style.
It's the truckers and their supporters now but he'll continue to expand these powers to essentially cut any people they don't like from the financial system under the guise of containing extremists/terrorists.
You're witnessing the first steps of implementing a social credit score".

I honestly think the vaccine passport (it didn't work yet we still implemented it) was just a precursor to a social credit score and implementation.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> SO less than I have in my SUV on a daily basis


As the only guy I know that can legitimately refer to ‘the vanilla side of SOCOM’ in a casual sentence… I feel the above is probably true 😉


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

I assume the main reason for invoking the act is to declare border crossings out of bounds.  Be interesting to see what happens to peoples' finances, though.  Freezing donations comes perilously close to interfering with freedom of expression.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I assume the main reason for invoking the act is to declare border crossings out of bounds.  Be interesting to see what happens to peoples' finances, though.  Freezing donations comes perilously close to interfering with freedom of expression.


Windsor is gone. Coutts is gone. The police were hugging protestors as they were going (video in link).
This was done without the emergency measures act. Why is this now needed?











						Police hug protesters as they roll out from Coutts, Alberta border crossing
					

RCMP said the remaining protesters left the border blockade voluntarily




					nationalpost.com


----------



## MilEME09 (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Windsor is gone. Coutts is gone. The police were hugging protestors as they were going (video in link).
> This was done without the emergency measures act. Why is this now needed?
> 
> 
> ...


to put an end to it once and for all? before the act was invoked, there was nothing to stop the protestors from coming back, picking a different border crossing, etc..... now with their banking assets frozen, tow companies being compelled to help, etc..... the cards are not in their favour at all to try and continue this else where.


----------



## RangerRay (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I’m still trying to figure out if the Feds were deliberately letting things roll along at first to support a Machiavellian set-up to hyper-exponentially ramp up to secure the relatively unchallenged/unchecked powers of the EA, or non-Machiavellian ineptitude and weak, dithering leadership.   Not sure which is worse.  🤷🏻‍♂️



I believe it’s the latter with this bunch. They couldn’t organize a conspiracy to get lunch at noon.


----------



## Furniture (16 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> to put an end to it once and for all? before the act was invoked, there was nothing to stop the protestors from coming back, picking a different border crossing, etc..... now with their banking assets frozen, tow companies being compelled to help, etc..... the cards are not in their favour at all to try and continue this else where.


Seems reasonable.. desperate people never do anything unpredictable.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I believe it’s the latter with this bunch. They couldn’t organize a conspiracy to get lunch at noon.


I genuinely do try to be objective when it comes to these things, and try to stay as unbiased as I can…

However, with the current leadership at the federal level, I’m thinking it’s the latter.  

This is a guy who is so focused on being woke & giving away money, he failed to recognize the morale of the country is at an all-time low.  

WW1, WW2, the FLQ crisis were all that… they were a crisis.  Canadians protesting from coast to coast, unified in their severe dislike of what he’s doing to the country & his apparent disconnect from the everyday person, isn’t quite in the same category as the prior 3.



I agree RangerRay, I very much think it’s the latter of the bunch…

My 0.02


----------



## CBH99 (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Going After the Truckers Money.
> Anyone who donated or is associated with supporting (can be stringent guidelines or as loose as they want) can have thier accounts frozen without court order.
> I have friends who have donated to the cause via GiveSendGo, they are going to be moving money into credit unions that might be exempt (provincially regulated). They have donated small amounts less than $50. How far will Dear Leader go to quash his enemies.
> 
> ...


Guys & Gals…

We are actually witnessing something historic happening, right here in Canada and right now as I type this.  

The question we need to ask ourselves, and we truly need to be honest with ourselves (collectively) is… how the hell did we allow this to happen in Canada?  


Is this the greed and weakness of a small minded leader showing us how much power the government actually has?

Is this the beginning of a social credit system, similar to the CCP’s?

Or is this just an ugly blip that, once over with, will fade away and Canada can become the country it once was?  Maybe not as ambitious as in the past, but surely more than a dying, panting mammoth?


Mind boggling and sad to watch, tbh


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> There is a lot of disinformation out there about what the Freedom Convoy is demanding. Here it is straight from the horses mouth:


One of the horses' mouths, anyway - we'll see how it spreads through the protesters.


----------



## Edward Campbell (16 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I assume the main reason for invoking the act is to declare border crossings out of bounds.  Be interesting to see what happens to peoples' finances, though.  Freezing donations comes perilously close to interfering with freedom of expression.



Bingo!

Twice: the financial powers are HUGE, in and f themselves, and your last pint is critical.

Some media outlets are already publishing the names and details of some donors. To what end? one might ask.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Some media outlets are already publishing the names and details of some donors. To what end? one might ask.


I would say because it’s news.   I can’t speak to all news outlets but a lot have been contacting the names first to confirm if it was them or not before publishing.

Anyone remember the Ashley Maddison Leak?  And all the @forces names that were in there?


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I would say because it’s news.   I can’t speak to all news outlets but a lot have been contacting the names first to confirm if it was them or not before publishing.
> 
> Anyone remember the Ashley Maddison Leak?  And all the @forces names that were in there?


One would argue that there is a major difference between the two.
  Especially depending on the date of the donations.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> One would argue that there is a major difference between the two.
> Especially depending on the date of the donations.


Of course.  But still news. 

I agree about when donations may have been made.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Some media outlets are already publishing the names and details of some donors. To what end? one might ask.


‘Unity of Action’

Re: GoC’s Gaslighting Policy. All the better of the Fourth Estate joins in in the action? 🤔


----------



## mariomike (16 Feb 2022)

I've always enjoyed taking VIA Rail to visit our nation's capitol.

As a tourist, I was curious to know what life is like for those living there these days,


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Wow.

“….there was an man behind her [daughter] and she was scared she had a gun…”

So how did here daughter come to believe the man walking behind her had a gun?

Either: A) she told he daughter the man may have a gun; or B) her daughter saw one of the new GoC ads about gun violence in the streets.”


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> ‘Unity of Action’
> 
> Re: GoC’s Gaslighting Policy. All the better of the Fourth Estate joins in in the action? 🤔


This is similar to Comrade Joe`s and the Chairman`s way of oppressing the population.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

When did we get so divided ?

Some of you who have more seas under their keel than I may know more but I dont remember a time when we were so divided as a country.  I feel like when I was growing up Libs and PCs could talk, compromise and work together... 

Am I living in a fantasy land ?


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> When did we get so divided ?
> 
> Some of you who have more seas under their keel than I may know more but I dont remember a time when we were so divided as a country.  I feel like when I was growing up Libs and PCs could talk, compromise and work together...
> 
> Am I living in a fantasy land ?


Growing up for me there was a big English vs French divide.  Mostly driven by the separatist movement

Maybe the “counter culture” events of the 1960s?


----------



## FSTO (16 Feb 2022)

I read that the owner of Stella Luna (Ottawa Ice Cream and Gelato joint) got doxed. Now her staff is getting threatening calls.

"But then there’s Tammy Giuliani, the owner of Stella Luna Gelato Café, which has two locations in Ottawa. She made a $250 donation to the convoy on February 5. By Monday afternoon, her staff were getting threatening phone calls, and Giuliani was forced to close shop. We would be surprised if she’s never able to run a business in the town again. "









						Emergencies Act Emergency Dispatch: Checking the convoy naughty list (twice)
					

Sloly is broke, the Emergencies Act is Woke, and Doxxing is still bad, em'kay?




					theline.substack.com
				








__





						Threats close Stella Luna Gelato Café after owner's name appears in GiveSendGo data leak
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Edward Campbell (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> When did we get so divided ?
> 
> Some of you who have more seas under their keel than I may know more but I dont remember a time when we were so divided as a country.  I feel like when I was growing up Libs and PCs could talk, compromise and work together...
> 
> Am I living in a fantasy land ?


I know it's a rhetorical question, but 1947 would be a good place to start. In the USA ~ from whence most Canadians get most of their ideas: good and bad ~ some liberal politicians (Republicans who are now called conservatives because the US media and intelligentsia have totally lost the ability to use the English language) wanted to repeal the New Deal. It was, they felt, government overreach which may have been necessary, as a stop-gap measure in the 1930s but was too much "government" for a liberal nation.

In Canada there was the first skirmish of a civil war inside the Liberal Party on socio-economic policy that lasts to this day.  The Big Government Liberals won the day. A similar civil war shook the Conservative Party in Canada, too. Diefenbaker was, mainly, a liberal but he faced a Big Government caucus.

By 1964, in America, Barry Goldwater campaigned on formally renouncing and dismantling most of the New Deal and the "New Right" was born. Goldwater lost.

But the divisions in US social and political thought were clear and firm ... and they seeped, slowly at first, and then swept across the border into Canada.

Québec, as always, was and remains the least liberal political jurisdiction in North America and it helped to push and keep the Liberal Party in the Big Government/illiberal camp. The Conservatives were, under Brian Mulroney, equally committed to Big Government and it took Parson Preston Manning to really bring American style neo-liberalism into Canada. Stephen Harper was/is a neo-liberal. It is not clear to me where Pierre Poilievre and other would-be leadership sit on the liberal - neo-liberal - Conservative - Liberal - illiberal - autocratic spectrum.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> I read that the owner of Stella Luna (Ottawa Ice Cream and Gelato joint) got doxed. Now her staff is getting threatening calls.
> 
> "But then there’s Tammy Giuliani, the owner of Stella Luna Gelato Café, which has two locations in Ottawa. She made a $250 donation to the convoy on February 5. By Monday afternoon, her staff were getting threatening phone calls, and Giuliani was forced to close shop. We would be surprised if she’s never able to run a business in the town again. "
> 
> ...


She’s done.  No way she recovers from this.


----------



## FSTO (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> She’s done.  No way she recovers from this.


I love that place, went there often. 
People are morons.


----------



## lenaitch (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> When did we get so divided ?
> 
> Some of you who have more seas under their keel than I may know more but I dont remember a time when we were so divided as a country.  I feel like when I was growing up Libs and PCs could talk, compromise and work together...
> 
> Am I living in a fantasy land ?


Well, I'm not _that_ old but it seems the WWI conscription issue, the Winnipeg General Strike were pretty divisive as well.  I suppose by the nature of the technology and transportation of earlier times, public expressions of discontent were much more local or regional and didn't have much chance to coalesce.  Most often, if you wanted to mount a protest, you pretty much had to use the folks who were within a wagon ride.

No social media and limited broadcast media.  A sound bite was probably a print reporter extracting a phrase out a long speech (they were more into oratory back then).

I also think politics was much less centrally driven and partisan back in the day and there was more cross-floor collaboration, and the Bill Davis-style 'red-Tory' was more in fashion (with possibly a, what, blue-Grit?).  Less power in the PMO, less power by party employees (who are allowed to be in the PMO, which drives me nuts).

'Politics is the art of the possble':  Bismarck​


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Feb 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> ... Some media outlets are already publishing the names and details of some donors. To what end? one might ask.


Another example of good for the goose, good for the gander.

If a similar list of donors to, say, Antifa was hacked & published, would people be curious about who's donating?  Including looking for people dumb enough to use their easily-identifiable email addresses?  Or is their privacy and right to expression/association just as protected as the folks donating to this cause?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> I love that place, went there often.
> People are morons.


I literally passed her place on my way to get a haircut this weekend (where I also witnessed the ‘barely anyone there’ counter-convoy protest at Lansdowne).  Little did I know that a favourite local small business employing many middle-to-lower class Canadians and their entrepreneurial boss, may very well all lose their livelihood because the _Libstasi_ judged and sentenced them _in absentia_ to financial destitution. 

Well done, Canada. 😠


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I literally passed her place on my way to get a haircut this weekend (where I also witnessed the ‘barely anyone there’ counter-convoy protest at Lansdowne).  Little did I know that a favourite local small business employing many middle-to-lower class Canadians and their entrepreneurial boss, may very well all lose their livelihood because the _Libstasi_ judged and sentenced them _in absentia_ to financial destitution.
> 
> Well done, Canada. 😠



Social Credit Score!  Woopie Doo its arrived.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I literally passed her place on my way to get a haircut this weekend (where I also witnessed the ‘barely anyone there’ counter-convoy protest at Lansdowne).  Little did I know that a favourite local small business employing many middle-to-lower class Canadians and their entrepreneurial boss, may very well all lose their livelihood because the _Libstasi_ judged and sentenced them _in absentia_ to financial destitution.
> 
> Well done, Canada. 😠


Other businesses have stepped up to offer all her employees jobs apparently.

But I find it quite funny that people who had no sympathy for local Ottawa businesses that feed the beast suddenly have concern. 

People vote with their wallets.


----------



## FSTO (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Other businesses have stepped up to offer all her employees jobs apparently.
> 
> But I find it quite funny that people who had no sympathy for local Ottawa businesses that feed the beast suddenly have concern.
> 
> People vote with their wallets.


Hmm, I don't quite get your reasoning here. The loss of business for everyone downtown Ottawa is a concern for all Canadians and what these "protestors" are doing there is not right. 
People can vote with their wallets, that is their right. But death threats to employees who's only connection to the owner is that they work there? What kind of person does that? It has been noted by folks like Paul Wells and David Herle that their 60's protest friends are very quick now to advocate for the cops or the army to come in a break some heads. Funny how the comfortable folks become freedom of the land types when their comfort is challenged by what they consider "The Great Unwashed".


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> But death threats to employees who's only connection to the owner is that they work there? *What kind of person does that*?


Todays progressives, that's who.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Hmm, I don't quite get your reasoning here. The loss of business for everyone downtown Ottawa is a concern for all Canadians and what these "protestors" are doing there is not right.
> People can vote with their wallets, that is their right. But death threats to employees who's only connection to the owner is that they work there? What kind of person does that? It has been noted by folks like Paul Wells and David Herle that their 60's protest friends are very quick now to advocate for the cops or the army to come in a break some heads. Funny how the comfortable folks become freedom of the land types when their comfort is challenged by what they consider "The Great Unwashed".


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Guys & Gals…
> 
> We are actually witnessing something historic happening, right here in Canada and right now as I type this.
> 
> ...



Anyone who mentioned this was the path we were going down was called a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist. To all of those people: Enjoy the decline.

Secondly, it is hilarious people are still actually debating who they will vote for in the next elections and pontificating about irrelevant personal characteristics of people like PP in the face of what is presently happening under Trudeau. Clearly, if you value freedom and rights, the sane answer is anybody but the LPC and NDP.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Hmm, I don't quite get your reasoning here. The loss of business for everyone downtown Ottawa is a concern for all Canadians and what these "protestors" are doing there is not right.
> People can vote with their wallets, that is their right. But death threats to employees who's only connection to the owner is that they work there? What kind of person does that? It has been noted by folks like Paul Wells and David Herle that their 60's protest friends are very quick now to advocate for the cops or the army to come in a break some heads. Funny how the comfortable folks become freedom of the land types when their comfort is challenged by what they consider "The Great Unwashed".


I don’t condone threats.  But some people don’t seem to care about how this was affecting the locals because “Ottawa is a government town”.  Now we are hearing of concern.  

But people are free to patronize or not any business they choose.  Plenty of boycotts are done on political lines that isn’t new.  Businesses downtown were shut down, threatened and vandalized by bad apples.   Bad apples on every side it would seem. 

This convoy brought in a pile of outside elements.  Once they are gone, this is still a local problem.  Local owners, workers and taxpayers that have to deal with this.  

The issue with this particular lady is that she is claiming she regrets making her donation saying she had no idea what this would become.  It was very clear on the day she donated what this was and what it turned into.  People aren’t buying it and her going to the media about it likely has not helped her case.  She got doxxed.  That is unfortunate.  I’m not a fan of that but there is a lesson to be learned in giving money to dubious causes led by sketchy people on unsecure platforms. 

But she got caught and now she has to deal with the fall out of her decision to support something that was hurting the city.  

Hopefully the Convoy people will support her and maybe donate to her.  The city is setting up something for affected businesses so maybe she will qualify. 

But I suspect there will be a reckoning in this city after this is done.  My real hope is that for well intentioned people that  some sort of reconciliation/path can be achieved.    But people are pissed.  Ottawa has made a ton of effort to support its local businesses through this pandemic.  Take out Fridays, free advertisements and spots on local TV, donations etc etc.  When they see what they think is a betrayal that doesn’t sit well.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Other businesses have stepped up to offer all her employees jobs apparently.


You mean other business yet to feel the destructive effect of doxxing themselves, have offered jobs. How magnanimous of them.

So destruction of select businesses over a small donation, potential honest intention notwithstanding, has been judged by the angry mob to be acceptable now.  Looks like we needn't worry ourselves with taxes being spent to maintain an official judiciary then.  When do we get our tax rebate?

As well, will we see consistency in the doxxing, like including all the public servants who donated?  I mean, that’s justification for their termination and suspension of any pension as well, right?  And how about that guy that did an intra-branch transfer to a few truckers that was stopped by the bank. That’s justification surely for freezing and confiscating his assets, right?



Remius said:


> But I find it quite funny that people who had no sympathy for local Ottawa businesses that feed the beast suddenly have concern.
> 
> People vote with their wallets.


Yeah, it’s hilarious…so long as you’re on the ‘winning’ side.


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I don’t condone threats.  But some people don’t seem to care about how this was affecting the locals because “Ottawa is a government town”.  Now we are hearing of concern.
> 
> But people are free to patronize or not any business they choose.  Plenty of boycotts are done on political lines that isn’t new.  Businesses downtown were shut down, threatened and vandalized by bad apples.   Bad apples on every side it would seem.
> 
> ...


Honestly that is a load of crap.
  She made a personal decision - didn't bring it into her work - and now she's toast?

The lesson learned is that some will publish info they have no right to publish -- where all the calls for the Government to go after the folks who leaked this -- that would be law and order, anything else is just partisan political hacking.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> But I find it quite funny that people who had no sympathy for local Ottawa businesses that feed the beast suddenly have concern.


More or less funny than people who were so concerned over Ottawa businesses turning around and attacking them?


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Mind boggling and sad to watch, tbh


Expected, actually. If you followed Trudeau's history, personality, and actions up to this point.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

If you can call your self a Liberal and support or participated in what happened to that ladies business you aren't a Liberal anymore.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If you can call your self a Liberal and support or participated in what happened to that ladies business you aren't a Liberal anymore.


Some people are just experiencing ‘liberal democracy’ differently than others.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Honestly that is a load of crap.
> She made a personal decision - didn't bring it into her work - and now she's toast?
> 
> The lesson learned is that some will publish info they have no right to publish -- where all the calls for the Government to go after the folks who leaked this -- that would be law and order, anything else is just partisan political hacking.


These are political intimidation and attacks, nothing less. "If you oppose us, we will destroy you and your livelihood."  

This is the kind of government and state funded media this country voted for.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> where all the calls for the Government to go after the folks who leaked this


The Prime Minister did say everything was on the table.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

When you allow the erosion of fundamental rights, even a little bit, this is what you get. This is the natural progression from "two weeks to flatten the curve".


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

…and two years to submit the populous.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Honestly that is a load of crap.
> She made a personal decision - didn't bring it into her work - and now she's toast?
> 
> The lesson learned is that some will publish info they have no right to publish -- where all the calls for the Government to go after the folks who leaked this -- that would be law and order, anything else is just partisan political hacking.


Plenty of businesses will be affected by the personal decisions and choices of the ownership.  That isn’t new. 

I think the leak was US based.  GSG probably or should have made a complaint to US authorities.  But given GSG history of telling those authorities to eff off over some things I’m not sure how much attention it will get.   Individuals can make complaints to the Privacy Commissioner about the data breach.   Given the national and international attention though I am sure this will be investigated.  Speaking from some experience in privacy law I’m not really sure how cooperative GSG will be though. 

For months and even the weeks leading to the breach GSG was repeatedly warned that their security was weak and vulnerable.  They did nothing to fix it and even stated that those statements were meant to discredit them.  Eventually if you keeping leaving your car unlocked someone might try to steal it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

They difference is this was a targeted and purposeful move.  

People made a point to go after her and her employees because of a political position.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> They difference is this was a targeted and purposeful move.
> 
> People made a point to go after her and her employees because of a political position.


The bad apples? Absolutely.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Another example of good for the goose, good for the gander.
> 
> If a similar list of donors to, say, Antifa was hacked & published, would people be curious about who's donating?  Including looking for people dumb enough to use their easily-identifiable email addresses?  Or is their privacy and right to expression/association just as protected as the folks donating to this cause?


If you look at the leak, the first and last names are all published because it was connected to credit card Info. People aren't dumb to expect this wouldn't get hacked at donation.
Most people donated anonymously to avoid being doxxed.
If you donated via Crypto, then you could be anonymous. The case use has been realized by growing number of people now.
Privacy and anonymousity should be expected and protected. We see the case for this growing and growing.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The bad apples? Absolutely.



They exist in every barrel eh ?


----------



## OldTanker (16 Feb 2022)

Question, brain trust. Considering the current situation, who do you think is really running Canada right now? Who is making decisions at the Federal level? Telford? Butts? The Cabinet? Freeland?  I would dismiss our PM as being an intellectual lightweight and having no leadership skills at all so somebody must be pulling the strings. This may shed some light on the current lack of federal leadership. Thoughts?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The bad apples? Absolutely.


And Social Judge Member Remius et Cie. confirm that Ms. Giuliano’s sentence to financial ruin is appropriate to the crime.

Nice…

EDIT to retract, kept for records: I apologize to Remius for this statement based on my incorrect assumption of his ‘bad apples’ comment earlier.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> She’s done.  No way she recovers from this.


I used to frequent shops of people who I enjoyed their service, products and chit-chat, despite them having significantly different views. Yet we never let that difference interfere with the daily life, in fact we celebrated Canada as a place where two people of opposing views can sit down and have coffee/beer together without any drama.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And Social Judge Member Remius et Cie. confirm that Ms. Giuliano’s sentence to financial ruin is appropriate to the crime.
> 
> Nice…


Except I never said. 

No need to devolve and make this personal.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Except I never said.
> 
> No need to devolve and make this personal.


I stand corrected then.

Perhaps I misunderstood your ‘bad apples’ comment.



Remius said:


> The bad apples? Absolutely.



Who were those bad apples, again?  I thought you were referring to Ms. Giuliani and her like, who contributed to the GSM platform?  No?


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I used to frequent shops of people who I enjoyed their service, products and chit-chat, despite them having significantly different views. Yet we never let that difference interfere with the daily life, in fact we celebrated Canada as a place where two people of opposing views can sit down and have coffee/beer together without any drama.


Of course.  But with the age of the inter web and everyone being offended by everything on every side of the spectrum this has been going on for some time.  Every remeberance day we see plenty of offended people and businesses boycotted because of things like poppies.   Or businesses that use perfectly legal business practices but that get boycotted by them.




Good2Golf said:


> I stand corrected then.
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstood your ‘bad apples’ comment.
> 
> ...


no I meant the bad apples that are threatening her and her staff. Just like the bad apples who actually threw bricks through a couple downtown businesses or threatened staff for asking them to wear masks.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

OldTanker said:


> Question, brain trust. Considering the current situation, who do you think is really running Canada right now? Who is making decisions at the Federal level? Telford? Butts? The Cabinet? Freeland?  I would dismiss our PM as being an intellectual lightweight and having no leadership skills at all so somebody must be pulling the strings. This may shed some light on the current lack of federal leadership. Thoughts?


One could surmise with all the connections to the WEF at the top (Trudeau, Freeland, Singh), it would be them. Clause Schwab stating as much on video would corroborate this is the case... But that would be very conspiracy and tinfoil hat like to suggest... so...


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> One could surmise with all the connections to the WEF at the top (Trudeau, Freeland, Singh), it would be them. Clause Schwab stating as much on video would corroborate this is the case... But that would be very conspiracy and tinfoil hat like to suggest... so...



I don't think anyone can seriously deny foreign meddling is happening.  Weather through the wealthy left leaning rich or the nefarious state actors like China and Russia.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

The danger is that we, generally and internationally, are moving past the point where it no longer matters what the individual points of contention are.   Instead there is such an accumulation of points of contention that people have had an opportunity to see how the other side decides on multiple issues and are deciding, as a Hoosier acquaintance of mine once said of Canadians, "They don't think like Normal folk".


It no longer matters the details.










						The left’s Nicene Creed
					

Those ‘IN THIS HOUSE, WE BELIEVE’ signs are more revealing than their owners think, more profession of faith than show of defiance




					spectatorworld.com
				





664 Synod of Whitby

It used to be a date commonly instructed in England, along with 1066.  Supposedly it was the date when England become a True Christian Country.  The date when its monks decided the True method of calculating the date of Easter and how to properly shave their heads.  The kind of important stuff that made them followers of Paul, Rome and Peter.

Lost in the mists of time and more than a thousand years of Propaganda is the power play between Egyptian Alexandrians and Syrian Antiocheans in Constantinople and Rome as the Mohamedans closed in on them.   As those that believed that Jesus was a man and those that believed he was God fought.  With Christians on both sides of the debate in Syria, in Cyprus, in Spain, in Britain and in Ireland.   With the Visigoths of Spain allying with the Arian Greco-Germans against the Catholic Romano-Franks.  And Ireland divided between Columba in the North, following the Greek traditions of the Visigoths and Andrew, versus followers of the Welshman David in the South, following the traditions of the Romans and Peter.

Whitby was a debate over haircuts.  It represented something substantially more.

I can give you other dates

1302 Bruges Matins - Belgian Peasants Revolt
1358 Jacquerie - French Peasants Revolt
1381 Peasants Revolt - English Peasants Revolt

The events are seldom remembered.  The causes even less frequently.


I have heard it said that separatism in Canada predates the FLQ Crisis, the Quiet Revolution, the Conscription Crises, School Questions, Jesuit Lands, Riel Rebellions and Fenian Raids, Zouaves for Rome, D'Arcy McGee,  Durham Reports and Rebellions, and can be placed back at the 1774 Quebec Act.

I would argue that separatism is baked into Canadian, and more explicitly Canadien, society from its foundation during the French Wars of Religion.  French speaking Huguenots in Europe swung the balance  when they voted with their feet and moved to Britain and the Americas and financed the rise of an enlightened liberalism under the Union Jack while France conserved the traditional authoritarianism of Europe.

The first time that Quebec City was captured from the French and placed under the Union Jack was 1629 it was captured by the French protestant Kirke brothers of Dieppe who had family connections and business interests in London as well as the protestant capital of La Rochelle.  La Rochelle dominated the Atlantic and was highly profitable.  And in 1628 it fell to Cardinal Richelieu and D'Artagnan for the King of France.  By the next year Quebec, La Rochelle's western entrepot held by local boy Samuel Champlain of Brouage, just up the coast, was taken under control of the shareholders now based in London.

In this read of history the seminal date in Canadian history is the 1659 arrival of Bishop Laval in Quebec.  That marked the ascendancy of the Gallo-Roman tradition over the Jesuits, Recollets, Sulpiciens and the Huguenots - French Protestants with Dutch, Scotch, Swedish and English allies in the New World.

The clash between central authority and individual freedom is baked into the society that is Canada.  Including "fringe elements" like Mennonites, Hutterites and Mormons.  Jews and Dhoukobors. Galicians. Sikhs.

The one moderating influence, over time, is that every dissident, fringe element, loses its passion as they seek to become the Establishment.

Personally, I am a non-subscribing presbyterian - meaning I don't subscribe to any creed, I don't pretend to know the truth of anything, but I do believe in the necessity of recognizing bottom up governance.  You can be right and still be dead.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think anyone can seriously deny foreign meddling is happening.  Weather through the wealthy left leaning rich or the nefarious state actors like China and Russia.


The Go Fund Me and GSG also showed the foreign wealthy right are certainly also involved. 

Harper went after several charities a few years ago for shady fundraising activities related to left leaning causes that were more political than charitable.   He took some flak for it but he was probably on to something.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Today in Ottawa:









						'Focused on getting this job done': Ottawa police prepared to end convoy occupation
					

Ottawa police are giving their strongest indication yet that they're prepared to remove demonstrators with the "Freedom Convoy" protest that has become a 20-day occupation of downtown Ottawa.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Of course.  But with the age of the inter web and everyone being offended by everything on every side of the spectrum this has been going on for some time.  Every remeberance day we see plenty of offended people and businesses boycotted because of things like poppies.   Or businesses that use perfectly legal business practices but that get boycotted by them.
> 
> 
> 
> no I meant the bad apples that are threatening her and her staff. Just like the bad apples who actually threw bricks through a couple downtown businesses or threatened staff for asking them to wear masks.


Then I apologize for jumping to an incorrect assumption.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I used to frequent shops of people who I enjoyed their service, products and chit-chat, despite them having significantly different views. Yet we never let that difference interfere with the daily life, in fact we celebrated Canada as a place where two people of opposing views can sit down and have coffee/beer together without any drama.



You used to frequent shops? 

Where do you find such things these days?  All I can find are self-serve warehouses.

And as for discussing the events of the day... probably happened the last time I was in an old time barber shop back in the 70's.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

The Price of a Permanent Emergency | Graham Shearer
					

For the sake of constitutional order and legitimacy, government claims for extraordinary powers must cease.




					www.firstthings.com


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

Justin Trudeau: a liberal despot
					

The Canadian PM has invoked emergency powers to crush the truckers’ peaceful protest.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Another example of good for the goose, good for the gander.
> 
> If a similar list of donors to, say, Antifa was hacked & published, would people be curious about who's donating?  Including looking for people dumb enough to use their easily-identifiable email addresses?  Or is their privacy and right to expression/association just as protected as the folks donating to this cause?


Really? It's well established that all the enviro and anti pipeline movements are funded from places "other than Canada". The gov shrugs and says "so what?'  Clearly in that instance the source of the money doesn't matter, but now the mukluk is on the other foot it's of deep concern?  The new eau du toilet,  Hypocrase', by the house of Gauche.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> One could surmise with all the connections to the WEF at the top (Trudeau, Freeland, Singh), it would be them. Clause Schwab stating as much on video would corroborate this is the case... But that would be very conspiracy and tinfoil hat like to suggest... so...


For two years I have been trying and trying to believe in Hanlon Razor. That most everything can be explained by that concept.  And I have found that this is generally true in life.  But that said more and more the tin foil tightens even when I try and loosen it.  Just too many points are adding up.   Even this EM points in the that direction.  I can see no real need for it.  The Feds, Prov and city have all the power to deal with the protestors before. It is a matter of will and logistics of resources not more executive power that was required.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

When protests aren't progressive


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> I read that the owner of Stella Luna (Ottawa Ice Cream and Gelato joint) got doxed. Now her staff is getting threatening calls.
> 
> "But then there’s Tammy Giuliani, the owner of Stella Luna Gelato Café, which has two locations in Ottawa. She made a $250 donation to the convoy on February 5. By Monday afternoon, her staff were getting threatening phone calls, and Giuliani was forced to close shop. We would be surprised if she’s never able to run a business in the town again. "
> 
> ...


Thuggery pure and simple. This is one of the tactics of the right (Nazi brownshirts) and the  far left.  In my mind these people who threatened the employees should be vigorously investigated, and prosecuted. AND their names very publicly announced.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Really? It's well established that all the enviro and anti pipeline movements are funded from places "other than Canada". The gov shrugs and says "so what?'  Clearly in that instance the source of the money doesn't matter, but now the mukluk is on the other foot it's of deep concern?  The new eau du toilet,  Hypocrase', by the house of Gauche.


There are books on this subject. That Tides etc. are funded by outside money.  Pipeline protests funded by rail interests.  So now its a problem because the "left and others" are mad?

Here was my thought experiment.  Throw darts.

In the next large labour strike or disruption in the country that effects say rail or air or a very important manufacturing sector. The strike goes on and the country economic output is hurt.  The government can now declare EM act and first order the workers back, and then even freeze the bank accounts of the union and the dues paying members. That is using this new precedent setting move.  Now I know the strike can be a legal strike but in this case the trucker protests have not at this time broke any law above bylaw and parking too.  Also you say the union is legal.  But some unions in Canada are also international ones with moneys from the US too. 

The business and/or government can orders workers back with the law now...but it then goes to an arbitrator.  But now we don't have to do that step. We can just declare EM.  So....


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> For two years I have been trying and trying to believe in Hanlon Razor. That most everything can be explained by that concept.  And I have found that this is generally true in life.  But that said more and more the tin foil tightens even when I try and loosen it.  Just too many points are adding up.   Even this EM points in the that direction.  I can see no real need for it.  The Feds, Prov and city have all the power to deal with the protestors before. It is a matter of will and logistics of resources not more executive power that was required.


Part of me feels you give JT too much credit.
  I honestly think it's like "look Dad, I can do it too"


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think anyone can seriously deny foreign meddling is happening.  Weather through the wealthy left leaning rich or the nefarious state actors like China and Russia.


I've always said that this demographic I have highlighted needs to share their wealth first. Lead by Example, Bono? Oprah?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> There are books on this subject. That Tides etc. are funded by outside money.  Pipeline protests funded by rail interests.  So now its a problem because the "left and others" are mad?
> 
> Here was my thought experiment.  Throw darts.
> 
> ...


You know, when 3 levels of government are declaring it and emergency it may actually be an emergency.


----------



## Quirky (16 Feb 2022)

The word 'emergency' has lost all meaning now after these last few weeks.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> The word 'emergency' has lost all meaning now after these last few weeks.


Yeah, that is what happens when Canada treats it police forces like it treats it hospitals.

When 250 protestors can overwhelm the front line officers, its clear your police force is too small.

That said, if a police force is too small, and cannot effectively do its job, then that probably constitutes an emergency.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think anyone can seriously deny foreign meddling is happening.  Weather through the wealthy left leaning rich or the nefarious state actors like China and Russia.


Correct. But to even suggest that, when evidence exists, others will state you're "trolling" .  That is where some of these people are at.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Correct. But to even suggest that, when evidence exists, others will state you're "trolling" .  That is where some of these people are at.


Has more to do when one side claims it’s only the other side that is doing it.  Despite actual evidence.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Part of me feels you give JT too much credit.
> I honestly think it's like "look Dad, I can do it too"


But what of those working for the Dear Leader across the Pacific whom he admires so much?  

I don’t for a second think this is just a bumbling effort of late-to-the-game poor governance by a youthful McGill grad and his friends and some Gen-Z interns…


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, that is what happens when Canada treats it police forces like it treats it hospitals.
> 
> When 250 protestors can overwhelm the front line officers, its clear your police force is too small.
> 
> That said, if a police force is too small, and cannot effectively do its job, then that probably constitutes an emergency.


When they needed to clear the bridge, they didn't have any issues. The police are not "overwhelmed".


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> But what of those working for the Dear Leader across the Pacific whom he admires so much?
> 
> I don’t for a second think this is just a bumbling effort of late-to-the-game poor governance by a youthful McGill grad and his friends and some Gen-Z interns…


You can think that all you like.

But its more like the usual tale of confederation at this point.

Municipality blames Province.

Province blames federal government.

Federal government blames municipality.

This applies to everything from transit to housing to these protests.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Has more to do when one side claims it’s only the other side that is doing it.  Despite actual evidence.


What are you even talking about? Never mind.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> What are you even talking about? Never mind.


I guess you haven’t been paying attention.  No worries.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> When they needed to clear the bridge, they didn't have any issues. The police are not "overwhelmed".


Just their "leaders'....


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Just their "leaders'....


The EA was certainly not required,  just do their jobs.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> When they needed to clear the bridge, they didn't have any issues. The police are not "overwhelmed".


I'm talking specifically about the situation in Ottawa. 

The other border protests seem to have been resolved without issue, but there are more trucks and protestors in Ottawa than there are frontline Ottawa police to deal with them, so in that case they may be overwhelmed. 

I assume you're not going to try to insinuate that all these protests are the exact same and have the same set of circumstances on the ground, because that would be foolish.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The EA was certainly not required,  just do their jobs.


When the police are not doing their jobs, what do you do?


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I'm talking specifically about the situation in Ottawa.
> 
> The other border protests seem to have been resolved without issue, but there are more trucks and protestors in Ottawa than there are frontline Ottawa police to deal with them, so in that case they may be overwhelmed.
> 
> I assume you're not going to try to insinuate that all these protests are the exact same and have the same set of circumstances on the ground, because that would be foolish.


The situation in Ottawa is still localised. The issue is actually doing their jobs to clear this.  So far we haven’t seen that very much.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The situation in Ottawa is still localised. The issue is actually doing their jobs to clear this.  So far we haven’t seen that very much.


The police in Ottawa been solidly not doing their jobs for 3 weeks now, using every excuse in the book. 

They have asked for 1800 additional officers and the province and Feds have....not done that. 

They contacted tow truck companies, and the tow truck companies balked at the idea of towing the protestors trucks. 

So at what point does someone need to step in and do something after the police have tried nothing and are all out of ideas?


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> When the police are not doing their jobs, what do you do?


And where is that stemming from?  By some accounts sloly was doing a hands off approach to policing, possibly influenced from his experience with the TO G20 protests.  It isn’t impossible that he and other leaders completely bungled this.  

I’m sure that facts will come out after but if the city effed up, let this thing dig in, how does that become a national emergency?  Local emergency?  Yes, by all means.  

According to the acting police chief he says his members are eager to start taking action.  Could they have been told to ease off to let it dissipate naturally?  And it was a bad call?  Mixed in with incompetence on how to now deal with it? 

Blockades have been taken down without EA measures.  I’m not sure it was necessary other than because of political pressure from our neighbours to the south and from Canadians that want to see “something” done.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The police in Ottawa been solidly not doing their jobs for 3 weeks now, using every excuse in the book.
> 
> They have asked for 1800 additional officers and the province and Feds have....not done that.
> 
> ...


Incompetence does not equal EA required.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Incompetence does not equal EA required.



No but its a good campaign point to bring up for the perpetually and unreasonably scared soccer moms and dads.  Makes them feel all warm and safe.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> And where is that stemming from?  By some accounts sloly was doing a hands off approach to policing, possibly influenced from his experience with the TO G20 protests.  It isn’t impossible that he and other leaders completely bungled this.


It may be telling that Sloly quit shortly after the EA was enacted. 

Maybe the EA isn't used if Sloly quit earlier in this. 

I do think Sloly is the root cause of the EA being enacted though. 


Remius said:


> I’m sure that facts will come out after but if the city effed up, let this thing dig in, how does that become a national emergency?  Local emergency?  Yes, by all means.


Municipal emergencies don't really grant additional powers to police, do day?


Remius said:


> According to the acting police chief he says his members are eager to start taking action.  Could they have been told to ease off to let it dissipate naturally?  And it was a bad call?  Mixed in with incompetence on how to now deal with it?


The fact of the matter is politicians cannot order police forces to do things.  So Sloly being incompetent started to reflect badly on those above him, in both levels of government. 

And no doubt it was hurting Justin Trudeau with the very people he needs to win elections with.


Remius said:


> Blockades have been taken down without EA measures.  I’m not sure it was necessary other than because of political pressure from our neighbours to the south and from Canadians that want to see “something” done.


A lot of politics is local, sadly. 


Remius said:


> Incompetence does not equal EA required.



Sure, but incompetence has a habit of spreading. 

This protest is a local municipal issue. At the municipal level, it's a policing issue.

But the citizens don't care about the nuances. They want something done. And not just the locals, this is being broadcasted into every Canadians home via tradition news and social media. 

So Sloly shitting the bed was making Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau look bad, which means those two need to do something. 

Doug Ford and Justin Trudeau both declared an emergency over it.  

Needed, no. But with a police chief literally not doing his job, it became a political necessity


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Incompetence does not equal EA required.


…especially since Ontario had just put in place a State of Emergency days earlier (11 Feb) which helped sort out Windsor quickly and peacefully.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> No but its a good campaign point to bring up for the perpetually and unreasonably scared soccer moms and dads.  Makes them feel all warm and safe.


Pretty much this.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

The city of Ottawa is going to have a lot to answer for.  As much as people here are upset at the Convoy occupiers they are just as much upset with the city leadership on how this was handled.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The city of Ottawa is going to have a lot to answer for.  As much as people here are upset at the Convoy occupiers they are just as much upset with the city leadership on how this was handled.


You're wrong.

The mayor of Ottawa isn't running again and the Ottawa police chief just quit.

There isn't anyone left to hold to account.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Pretty much this.


Then we all agree that the EA was not required for anything other than political expediency.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> The mayor of Ottawa isn't running again and the Ottawa police chief just quit.
> 
> There isn't anyone left to hold to account.


If you think the members of the police board and other incumbent councillors won’t be held accountable you are wrong.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If you think the members of the police board and other incumbent councillors won’t be held accountable you are wrong.


Police board members say that Sloly made all the decisions and the councilors say the Mayor made all the decisions. 

Lots of finger pointing going to happen, those two will eat a lot of it, but those two are gone.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Then we all agree that the EA was not required for anything other than political expediency.


I wont ever expect a politician to not act politically. 

But politicians are slaves to public opinion. So at the end of the day the collective public do drive the agenda to an extent.


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Police board members say that Sloly made all the decisions and the councilors say the Mayor made all the decisions.
> 
> Lots of finger pointing going to happen, those two will eat a lot of it, but those two are gone.


The "I was just following orders" defense died at Nuremberg


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Police board members say that Sloly made all the decisions and the councilors say the Mayor made all the decisions.
> 
> Lots of finger pointing going to happen, those two will eat a lot of it, but those two are gone.


Police Board members also told the press that Sloly was resigning before he even new he was resigning…

This isn’t over by a long shot.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> The "I was just following orders" defense died at Nuremberg


We both know that is BS.

An inquiry will be held.

The ottawa mayor and ottawa police chief will get the lions share of the blame.

Both wont care.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (16 Feb 2022)

FJAG said:


> Not to derail this thread but has anyone noticed this article from Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



An update









						Firearms, trailer stolen from Peterborough recovered in Peel Region: police  | Globalnews.ca
					

Peterborough police and manufacturer Savage Arms have yet to determine if the trailer contains the more than 2,000 small calibre firearms that were taken.




					globalnews.ca
				






> Firearms, trailer stolen from Peterborough recovered in Peel Region: police​
> Peterborough police say a trailer and a “large quantity” of firearms reported stolen on the weekend have been recovered in Peel Region.
> 
> Early Wednesday, police issued a statement that the trailer and its contents are being returned to the Peterborough Police Service and manufacturer Savage Arms to determine if anything is missing among the more than 2,000 small calibre firearms. Savage Arms, based in nearby Lakefield, said the theft involved one of its shipping partners.
> ...


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I'm talking specifically about the situation in Ottawa.
> 
> The other border protests seem to have been resolved without issue, but there are more trucks and protestors in Ottawa than there are frontline Ottawa police to deal with them, so in that case they may be overwhelmed.
> 
> I assume you're not going to try to insinuate that all these protests are the exact same and have the same set of circumstances on the ground, because that would be foolish.


So long as they are not violent or harassing people, they are exercising freedom of peaceful assembly. That is why the police haven't cleared them out. Notice, the injunctions issued were directly related to matters that are not your right (you have no right to honk all day and night causing mischief, but you do have a right to peacefully assembly).


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Police board members say that Sloly made all the decisions and the councilors say the Mayor made all the decisions.
> 
> Lots of finger pointing going to happen, those two will eat a lot of it, but those two are gone.


Diane Deans, mayoral hopeful and head of the Ottawa police board is taking a lot of heat and is deflecting.  

If you look at some of these councillors (a lot that support the mayor btw) they flip flopped so much on social media regarding this.

Anyone who is linked to Watson and is running for mayor is going to have an uphill battle this coming election.

Plenty of calls to dump most of council because no one has shown real leadership.

It’s guaranteed there will be an inquiry and I’m sure it will come out.  But council members are already turning on each other. 

Here:  Sloly was left 'hanging out to dry' as Ottawa police struggled to control occupation, former board chair says

Just a local story from one councillor about his peers.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> When the police are not doing their jobs, what do you do?


The police are doing exactly their jobs by keeping the peace and allowing the exercise of fundamental rights.  Just because Trudeau disagrees with the Charter doesn't mean the police do.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> So long as they are not violent or harassing people, they are exercising freedom of peaceful assembly. That is why the police haven't cleared them out. Notice, the injunctions issued were directly related to matters that are not your right (you have no right to honk all day and night causing mischief, but you do have a right to peacefully assembly).


Non violent does not always equate to peaceful.   It should be lawful vs unlawful.  This one is no longer lawful.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

What exactly did people want the police to do ?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> The police are doing exactly their jobs by keeping the peace and allowing the exercise of fundamental rights.  Just because Trudeau disagrees with the Charter doesn't mean the police do.


So what were the police in Windsor doing then?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> What exactly did people want the police to do ?


I think Windsor is a good template for what people want to be done.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Windsor is a different beast, no ?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

And again, I offer my sincere condolences for all the protestors killed and wounded during the Windsor police bridge clearing operation.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> But what of those working for the Dear Leader across the Pacific whom he admires so much?
> 
> I don’t for a second think this is just a bumbling effort of late-to-the-game poor governance by a youthful McGill grad and his friends and some Gen-Z interns…


I am still in my heart I hope that this a Hanlon's Razor situation.....But I fear you are correct.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> And again, I offer my sincere condolences for all the protestors killed and wounded during the Windsor police bridge clearing operation.



What's the point of this ?


----------



## Gunnar (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Clearly, if you value freedom and rights, the sane answer is anybody but the LPC and NDP.


Clearly, you haven’t considered whether or not they have nice hair.  What kind of voter are you if you can’t take things seriously?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Windsor is a different beast, no ?


It is. 

It may mean that to use the Windsor template in Ottawa requires a lot more officers than the Ottawa Police Service has on hand, like Sloly said. 

Or maybe they always had enough officers, as the new chief is saying.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> What's the point of this ?


Is it not polite to offer condolences?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> What's the point of this ?


I think he’s roundabout making the point that Doug Ford’s declaration of a State of Emergency in Ontario was entirely sufficient for peaceful resolution of blockades, and Trudeau had no justification to up the ante to the country-wide Emergencies Act.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I think he’s roundabout making the point that Doug Ford’s declaration of a State of Emergency in Ontario was entirely sufficient for peaceful resolution of blockades, and Trudeau had no justification to up the ante to the country-wide Emergencies Act.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

It’s because a few pages ago when people were asking for police action some equated that to having police cracking heads open and shooting people and being a bit over dramatic when Ford declared a state of emergency.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> The police are doing exactly their jobs by keeping the peace and allowing the exercise of fundamental rights.  Just because Trudeau disagrees with the Charter doesn't mean the police do.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494020714738995204
Against the charter?


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I think he’s roundabout making the point that Doug Ford’s declaration of a State of Emergency in Ontario was entirely sufficient for peaceful resolution of blockades, and Trudeau had no justification to up the ante to the country-wide Emergencies Act.


I just assumed yet again more trolling...


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Non violent does not always equate to peaceful.   It should be lawful vs unlawful.  This one is no longer lawful.


Says you.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> It is.
> 
> It may mean that to use the Windsor template in Ottawa requires a lot more officers than the Ottawa Police Service has on hand, like Sloly said.
> 
> Or maybe they always had enough officers, as the new chief is saying.


Or maybe blockading a port of entry is different then camping out on the streets in front of Parliament.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (16 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Hmm, I don't quite get your reasoning here. The loss of business for everyone downtown Ottawa is a concern for all Canadians and what these "protestors" are doing there is not right.
> People can vote with their wallets, that is their right. But death threats to employees who's only connection to the owner is that they work there? What kind of person does that? It has been noted by folks like Paul Wells and David Herle that their 60's protest friends are very quick now to advocate for the cops or the army to come in a break some heads. Funny how the comfortable folks become freedom of the land types when their comfort is challenged by what they consider "The Great Unwashed".


Someone who deserves a good beat down of their own.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Says you.


In Ottawa what laws have been broken above by-law, parking, noise and general nuisance?  These are not Nation ending law breaking.  Even the few large offenses have been dealt with.  The largest and most important offence is the PM was and is made to look bad.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Says you.


I’ll drop this here without comment and you can educate yourself.  No need to thank me.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Or maybe blockading a port of entry is different then camping out on the streets in front of Parliament.


There are differences yes, but the law is the law.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

> there is a lesson to be learned in giving money to dubious causes led by sketchy people on unsecure platforms.



Yes; the lesson is that it brings out the vengeful ethically vacuous idiots among media, and the tyrannical totalitarians among readers/viewers.  Pretty much everyone by now reasonably knows the consequences of doxxing (ignorance can no longer be claimed as an excuse).  It's rarely punishment proportionate to "crime".  All information is theoretically "news", but information ordinarily considered confidential should remain confidential unless it serves a public interest.  Knowing who donated a couple of hundred bucks to an amorphous protest movement is not a public interest - maybe as far as the people charged with investigating crime, and that's it.  If you don't reasonably need to know it, you shouldn't go looking.  Otherwise, you are, charitably, a nosy busybody and an asshole.  To publish it is obviously to be much more discreditable than that.  In current political climates perhaps publication of donor lists should itself be a crime.  It would be a sacrifice to political transparency, but the safety and security and liberty of persons evidently is at stake.

"Respect the dignity of all persons."

Maybe a new case study for ethics seminars: "I know something discreditable or potentially embarrassing, and ordinarily confidential or at least not ordinarily given widespread dissemination, about someone.  May I promulgate it in order to diminish and punish her for her views?"

On the speculation between nefarious/incompetent government: always choose the simpler explanation (incompetence).  The government led with trying to slime the protestors.  I've read "The Prince" and "The Art of War", and don't recall "Use intemperate language to burn your options for negotiation" as advice.  I suppose maybe it's in the art of negotiation - establish some sort of moral high ground so that your opponents will beg to meet your terms in order to regain your good opinion of them?  Then we have a period of dithering and hand-wringing and further denunciations.  Then finally we have invocation of the EA AFTER ordinary powers have been shown capable of dealing with demonstrations and blockades.  "Experts".

An "emergency" is an event which exceeds your capability to deal with it.  Part of capability is competence, but it's a poor excuse for resorting to calling your problem an "emergency".

Speaking of unlawful assemblies, the teenagers who sometimes gather late in the evening in the park behind my house occasionally behave "tumultuously".  Good example of a law that needs a more stringent definition.


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’ll drop this here without comment and you can educate yourself.  No need to thanks thank me.
> 
> View attachment 68739


Key being tumultuously.
   Given the precedent for other protests than have been conducted, and dealt with, or ignored by LE in Canada, it's hard to figure out exactly what the bar is for tumultuously is currently.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Key being tumultuously.
> Given the precedent for other protests than have been conducted, and dealt with, or ignored by LE in Canada, it's hard to figure out exactly what the bar is for tumultuously is currently.


To an extent.  I’ve pointed out two of the more publicly known events in Ottawa where the protests were declared unlawful.  The BLM one in 2020 where everyone was arrested on day 3.  And the Occupy Ottawa movement after 30 days. 

I can’t speak to all of Canada as each jurisdiction makes the call at their level.  However in Ottawa unlawful assembly is usually dealt with.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Key being tumultuously.
> Given the precedent for other protests than have been conducted, and dealt with, or ignored by LE in Canada, it's hard to figure out exactly what the bar is for tumultuously is currently.


There are benefits of being a unitary state like France, where most everything is run out of the capital with the regions and municipalities having far less power. 

That way there is more or less one standard across the country, for better or for worse. 

Otherwise, you get situations where the RCMP crack down on environmental and first nations protestors in BC and the OPP just sit around while First nations blockade rail lines. 

Every police chief gets to decide what they will and will not put up with, which leads to people not knowing what is allowed or not allowed.


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

Not sure that the bouncy castles and street celebrations have quite crossed the threshold of the definition of "riot" yet, or even are an unlawful assembly, as much as the pro Trudeau camp tries to stretch it. I mean, we've seen what "mostly peaceful protests" consist of, like burning buildings and destroying statues, and violently attacking the police. Since none of that has happened yet...


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Not sure that the bouncy castles and street celebrations have quite crossed the threshold of the definition of "riot" yet, or even are an unlawful assembly, as much as the pro Trudeau camp tries to stretch it. I mean, we've seen what "mostly peaceful protests" consist of, like burning buildings and destroying statues, and violently attacking the police. Since none of that has happened yet...


Nobody said this was a riot. Unlawful activity does not necessarily mean criminal activity. It can certainly escalate to that depending on what is being done and if it keeps being done.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Not sure that the bouncy castles and street celebrations have quite crossed the threshold of the definition of "riot" yet, or even are an unlawful assembly, as much as the pro Trudeau camp tries to stretch it. I mean, we've seen what "mostly peaceful protests" consist of, like burning buildings and destroying statues, and violently attacking the police. Since none of that has happened yet...


Might want to read the part about 3 or more assembling to disturb the peace tumultuously


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Anyways, it has been fun as always, but I'm off to play some hell let loose. 

I just hope that the CPC and its supporters continue to try to align themselves with this convoy, as evidenced here. 

I'm sure it will go down real well.


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Might want to read the part about 3 or more assembling to disturb the peace tumultuously


Which again comes back to the use of the word - 


Remius said:


> To an extent.  I’ve pointed out two of the more publicly known events in Ottawa where the protests were declared unlawful.  The BLM one in 2020 where everyone was arrested on day 3.  And the Occupy Ottawa movement after 30 days.
> 
> I can’t speak to all of Canada as each jurisdiction makes the call at their level.  However in Ottawa unlawful assembly is usually dealt with.


So it seems in Ottawa tumultuous falls between 2-29 days


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

New rules going after blockade financing an overreach, critics say​


> TORONTO — The federal government's move to use expanded financial powers to crack down on the trucker protests is* being called a severe overreach by financial crime experts,* while details remain scarce on how some of the directives will be implemented.
> 
> Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland announced Monday that crowdfunding platforms will now fall under anti-money laundering reporting requirements and financial institutions are being asked to freeze account services to both individual and business clients who they suspect are aiding the blockades.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes; the lesson is that it brings out the vengeful ethically vacuous idiots among media, and the tyrannical totalitarians among readers/viewers.  Pretty much everyone by now reasonably knows the consequences of doxxing (ignorance can no longer be claimed as an excuse).  It's rarely punishment proportionate to "crime".  All information is theoretically "news", but information ordinarily considered confidential should remain confidential unless it serves a public interest.  Knowing who donated a couple of hundred bucks to an amorphous protest movement is not a public interest - maybe as far as the people charged with investigating crime, and that's it.  If you don't reasonably need to know it, you shouldn't go looking.  Otherwise, you are, charitably, a nosy busybody and an asshole.  To publish it is obviously to be much more discreditable than that.  In current political climates perhaps publication of donor lists should itself be a crime.  It would be a sacrifice to political transparency, but the safety and security and liberty of persons evidently is at stake.
> 
> "Respect the dignity of all persons."
> 
> Maybe a new case study for ethics seminars: "I know something discreditable or potentially embarrassing, and ordinarily confidential or at least not ordinarily given widespread dissemination, about someone.  May I promulgate it in order to diminish and punish her for her views?"


Edit to add:


Remius said:


> Unlawful activity does not necessarily mean criminal activity. It can certainly escalate to that depending on what is being done and if it keeps being done.


Very true, and some other other activity can mean criminal activity…
[/edit]

If ‘security’ includes one’s job/livelihood, then it would seem that doxxers may have contravened Section 264 of the Criminal Code of Canada. 🤔




> *Criminal harassment*
> 
> *264* (1) No person shall, without lawful authority and knowing that another person is harassed or recklessly as to whether the other person is harassed, engage in conduct referred to in subsection (2) that causes that other person reasonably, in all the circumstances, to fear for their safety or the safety of anyone known to them.
> *Prohibited conduct*
> ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

The whole nature of political divisions and desires and what merits toleration and what does not comes back to something I think George Carlin said (paraphrasing): All my sh!t is stuff, and everyone else's stuff is sh!t.


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> New rules going after blockade financing an overreach, critics say​


I wonder what the compensation will be for both individuals, and institutions that acting on the direction of the government freeze assets upon suspicion, and are proven unfounded...


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If ‘security’ includes one’s job/livelihood, then it would seem that doxxers may have contravened Section 264 of the Criminal Code of Canada. 🤔


The doxxer or doxxers totally broke the law.  By all accounts it seems like it was broken in the US.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The doxxer or doxxers totally broke the law.  By all accounts it seems like it was broken in the US.


People physically at Stella Luna decrying and. Giuliani’s donation were not in the US.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> People physically at Stella Luna decrying and. Giuliani’s donation were not in the US.


Was her donation sent to an American funding platform?  Or does Give send Go have a Canadian platform?  

She might have recourse to sue GSG for the data breach though. 

People yelling at her store? How is that breaking the law?  Threats?  Yes.  Saying they won’t go there for gelato not so much.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

When you’re yelling that you’re going to throw bricks through the windows.   I heard second hand (same as the news, I suppose) that there were numerous individuals physically outside the store issuing verbal threats.  

In my books, that isn’t a trans-border civil issue, that becomes an issue of harassment and threat of physical harm under CCCs.264 that should be investigated by Canadian authorities, lest a precedent  be set that allows asymmetrical criminal vigilantism.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> ... Maybe a new case study for ethics seminars: "I know something discreditable or potentially embarrassing, and ordinarily confidential or at least not ordinarily given widespread dissemination, about someone.  May I promulgate it in order to diminish and punish her for her views?" ...


That could be a good case study.  Coming back to my earlier example, let's divide the seminar (I'm going down a military road, given the military crowd in these parts, but it could apply to any job) into 2 groups, with each doing slightly different tasks then comparing notes....


> ... "I know something discreditable or potentially embarrassing, and ordinarily confidential or at least not ordinarily given widespread dissemination - donating to the truckers' convoy protest - about someone in your chain of command.  How much would you like to know?" ...





> ... "I know something discreditable or potentially embarrassing, and ordinarily confidential or at least not ordinarily given widespread dissemination - donating to an Antifa/BLM protest - about someone in your chain of command.  How much would you like to know?" ...


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> When you’re yelling that you’re going to throw bricks through the windows.   I heard second hand (same as the news, I suppose) that there were numerous individuals physically outside the store issuing verbal threats.
> 
> In my books, that isn’t a trans-border civil issue, that becomes an issue of harassment and threat of physical harm under CCCs.264 that should be investigated by Canadian authorities, lest a precedent  be set that allows asymmetrical criminal vigilantism.


Sure.  I didn’t disagree with that. You had two things in your initial statement,  the doxing and the people yelling at Stella gelato.


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Feb 2022)

I used to half jokingly say that Costa Rica or Panama are looking better all the time. I no longer think I'm joking.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I used to half jokingly say that Costa Rica or Panama are looking better all the time. I no longer think I'm joking.


Costa Rica is quite nice. My uncle runs a B&B there.  He moved there after the last referendum because he wasn’t a fan of Canada or federalism. 

Stable gvt, good health care.  Good weather.


----------



## mariomike (16 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I used to half jokingly say that Costa Rica or Panama are looking better all the time. I no longer think I'm joking.


Colombia to visit. Arizona to live.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

I can't get behind the notion of this effort having an impact on the Canadian Economy, especially the Canadian Economy that has been dealing with pandemic decrees for the last two years. 

Sure the Ambassador Bridge blockade got the attention of the car manufacturers, but they are having bigger problems getting computer chips from China.  Crikey! It is getting to the point where my 10 year old Jeep is worth more now than when I bought it.  But I digress.










						Chip Shortage Forces Ford to Halt Production at Eight Assembly Plants
					

DEARBORN, MI—Difficulties in obtaining semiconductor chips will prompt Ford Motor Co. to temporarily halt or scale back production at eight assembly plants in North America.




					www.assemblymag.com
				




As far as I can see the only economy that is being discomfited is that of Parliament Hill and its local support systems.  And the fact that Canadians are sending money, and food, and gas and bouncy castles into the area is causing no end of consternation to the denizens who feel that they deserve the fealty of the peasantry.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I can't get behind the notion of this effort having an impact on the Canadian Economy, especially the Canadian Economy that has been dealing with pandemic decrees for the last two years.
> 
> Sure the Ambassador Bridge blockade got the attention of the car manufacturers, but they are having bigger problems getting computer chips from China.  Crikey! It is getting to the point where my 10 year old Jeep is worth more now than when I bought it.  But I digress.
> 
> ...


If wasn’t having an effect on the economy the US wouldn’t be putting pressure on our gvt to do something.  Doug Ford called a state of emergency because the auto industry was being effectively shut down. 

That being said, I am pretty sure that economic issues are not a reason to invoke the EA.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> 1302 Bruges Matins - Belgian Peasants Revolt
> 1358 Jacquerie - French Peasants Revolt
> 1381 Peasants Revolt - English Peasants Revolt



Just thinking about wars and pandemics.

The Firanji had been kicked out of Acre in 1291, losing the two century Crusade.
The Mongols held the Steppes and were knocking on the doors of Moscow, Kiev and Vienna.

The bills for the Crusades had come due and the King of France was turning the screws on the Lombards, Belgians, Templars and Jews.
The Southern French and the Northern French, both with interests in England, were fighting it out in France over who held the debt.

The Belgians reacted first in 1302 against French tax collectors
France decided it owned the Papacy in 1305
The Templars were censured and their assets seized to the benefit of France in 1307
The Southern French of London went to war with the Northern French of Paris in 1337

And then the Pandemic shows up from the East and kills off one third of everybody  1346-1353

But the London French and the Paris French kept fighting it out for another hundred years until the Mongols and Turks of the Steppes got their attention again and took Constantinople.

Meanwhile One Pope had become Three Popes and a whole lot of people had decided a "pox" on all Popes and Princes - and built their own communities from the bottom up completely disregarding their betters.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Just thinking about wars and pandemics.
> 
> The Firanji had been kicked out of Acre in 1291, losing the two century Crusade.
> The Mongols held the Steppes and were knocking on the doors of Moscow, Kiev and Vienna.
> ...


Funny you should mention this. I'm doing a bit of research about pandemics and it seems the Mongols used the bodies of dead troops (bubonic plague) hurled into cities by catapult to infect the populace.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If wasn’t having an effect on the economy the US wouldn’t be putting pressure on our gvt to do something.  Doug Ford called a state of emergency because the auto industry was being effectively shut down.
> 
> That being said, I am pretty sure that economic issues are not a reason to invoke the EA.



Remius, 

I think the bigger problem in the US is political.

Biden is facing some strong headwinds.  RealClearPolitics has become my preferred gauge of the US situation.  Usual it offsets a Republican media headline with a Democrat media headline.   These days both sets of media seem to be agreeing that POTUS and the Dems have big problems.  The Republicans are cheering.  The Democrats are wondering how they get out of the situation.

Trudeau is playing really well with the Republican media these days.  And Biden is facing an amorphous rising of trucker chatter that is threatening to repeat Ottawa in Washington.    I don't doubt that Trudeau was reacting to US pressure.  But I do doubt that it had anything to do with the economy.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Apparently the Solicitor General of Ontario just fired a staffer over a donation to give send go.  Behind a paywall so I didn’t link it.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apparently the Solicitor General of Ontario just fired a staffer over a donation to give send go.  Behind a paywall so I didn’t link it.


----------



## Haggis (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Apparently the Solicitor General of Ontario just fired a staffer over a donation to give send go.  Behind a paywall so I didn’t link it.


Using their @ontario.ca email address? I can see that.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Using their @ontario.ca email address? I can see that.


This is the thing.  People using their work emails…stupid stupid. 

But also becomes a liability for the Ford Gvt.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> This is the thing.  People using their work emails…stupid stupid.
> 
> But also becomes a liability for the Ford Gvt.


I agree that it was unwise to use that email, but everyone who chose to donate anonymously had an expectation of being anonymous. No one donated thinking it would be hacked. But it should get people thinking of using burner accounts and delinking from social media(seperate topic)
You can't just hide your name since linked to credit card, unless you donate via Crypto.

Format will be wierd, but these are some of the revelant headings.
What would be public if not for the leaks would be first and last name(if you chose to donate publically), donation amount and a message.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> This is the thing.  People using their work emails…stupid stupid.
> 
> But also becomes a liability for the Ford Gvt.


We’ll see if the same applies to the purposes Federal PS employees…


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I used to half jokingly say that Costa Rica or Panama are looking better all the time. I no longer think I'm joking.



I hear ya!


----------



## QV (16 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> I hear ya!


Why? You've been cheering on this stuff from the beginning. Not happy with the outcomes?


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

Over-reaction to the protests/blockades could also just be a symptom of governments (Canadian and US) desperate to find at least one file on which to demonstrate useful action, particularly if it consumes a couple of news cycles and pushes all their other worries out of public view for a while.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

Oh, here's a nice headline and quotation from CBC:

"Protesters who come to Ottawa risk being tied to 'dangerous criminal activity,' minister says"

"To those who may be thinking to come to Ottawa this weekend — don't," said Mendicino.

"At best, the residents of the city have made it clear that this is not the time. And at worst, you may be tying yourself to dangerous criminal activity."

Discreditable fear-mongering.  Chalk another tally on the "incompetent" side of the board.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> We’ll see if the same applies to the purposes Federal PS employees…


Why would it?  federal PS types aren’t political staff.  Political staff can be let go for any reason.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Over-reaction to the protests/blockades could also just be a symptom of governments (Canadian and US) desperate to find at least one file on which to demonstrate useful action, particularly if it consumes a couple of news cycles and pushes all their other worries out of public view for a while.


Perhaps it was all a ruse to get Governor Whitmer to ease up on Enbridge 5?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Why would it?  federal PS types aren’t political staff.  Political staff can be let go for any reason.


I took the report at face value.  The Solicitor General’s fired employee, Marion Isabeau-Ringuette, was an employee of the Ontario provincial government, not a political staffer of an MPP.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I took the report at face value.  The Solicitor General’s fired employee, Marion Isabeau-Ringuette, was an employee of the Ontario provincial government, not a political staffer of an MPP.


Everything out there has her listed as a political staffer not an Ontario public servant.  



			https://mobile.twitter.com/i/events/1493749611638378498
		


Example.  

And the solicitor general is an MPP.  She’s also a minister.  Ministers have a a team of political staffers working for them and they are not Ontario public servants.  

Same as the federal side.


----------



## Czech_pivo (16 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I used to half jokingly say that Costa Rica or Panama are looking better all the time. I no longer think I'm joking.


Panama is full of dirty money, corrupt bankers and politicians on the take.


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Why? You've been cheering on this stuff from the beginning. Not happy with the outcomes?



Really??



PMedMoe said:


> I'm not against lifting mandates gradually.  For instance, QR codes and capacity limits should be lifted immediately.  Masking should still be in place to a degree (think crowded transit, LTRs, etc).
> 
> *I would have also supported the truckers' protest (somewhat) if it had only been just that.*



And what outcome are you referring to?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Everything out there has her listed as a political staffer not an Ontario public servant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything?











						Staffer of Ontario's Solicitor General steps away after $100 donation to 'freedom convoy' fundraiser
					

Isabeau-Ringuette was still working for the government as of Sunday as she was connected to a press release centred on keeping pets safe in extreme cold.



					toronto.citynews.ca
				






> A spokesperson for Premier Doug Ford confirmed that Marion Isabeau-Ringuette “no longer works for the Ontario government.”



Not sure it gets any clearer than that.    It didn’t say Isabeau-Ringuette is no longer an employee of MPP Sylvia Jones’ riding office, she was the Solicitor General’s Director of Communications.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Everything?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything I’ve seen.  Sorry. And your article says staffer lol

And yes.  She doesn’t work for the riding office she works for the ministers office.  Again the ministers office is full of political staffers doing a variety of work.  Not public servants.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Feb 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> Panama is full of dirty money, corrupt bankers and politicians on the take.


oh the same as here...perfect!


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> oh the same as here...perfect!


No.

Panana has nicer beaches

Rule of thumb, pacific side for surfing, atlantic for lounging.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

I wonder how the CAF will deal with any members outed for donating to the protest.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I wonder how the CAF will deal with any members outed for donating to the protest.


Have they broken any rules? If not then nothing.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> No.
> 
> Panana has nicer beaches
> 
> Rule of thumb, pacific side for surfing, atlantic for lounging.


Oh really. Thanks. I have never been...well one of those quick cruise stops.  Those aren't real.  Beaches better of the east side eh?  I hope to do a canal cruise one day. My dad loved it. He sat in all the talks and lectures.  I don't know if they do them anymore.    Damn got me thinking.....


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I wonder how the CAF will deal with any members outed for donating to the protest.





Remius said:


> Have they broken any rules? If not then nothing.


This is the CAF we are talking about...


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Have they broken any rules? If not then nothing.


In my experience being guilty wasn't synomyous with whether or not someone gets punished.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In my experience being guilty wasn't synomyous with whether or not someone gets punished.


I know of one CAF member participating in the protest.  He hasn’t broken any rules or laws.  No one is going after him. 

Curious.  Have any CAF members used their forces account to donate?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Oh really. Thanks. I have never been...well one of those quick cruise stops.  Those aren't real.  Beaches better of the east side eh?  I hope to do a canal cruise one day. My dad loved it. He sat in all the talks and lectures.  I don't know if they do them anymore.    Damn got me thinking.....


Beaches are nice on both sides, but there are more waves on the pacific side, which is why it's better for surfing.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I know of one CAF member participating in the protest.  He hasn’t broken any rules or laws.  No one is going after him.


No one is going after him, yet. If they're investigating someone putting up a mediocre banner outside of their off base residence you friend probably isn't in the clear yet.

You may have also missed all the stories of women who were sexually assaulted getting harassed and punished for coming forward. Or people supporting victims having their careers sidelined. I'm pretty confident the CAF can get creative with this.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> No one is going after him, yet. If they're investigating someone putting up a mediocre banner outside of their off base residence you friend probably isn't in the clear yet.
> 
> You may have also missed all the stories of women who were sexually assaulted getting harassed and punished for coming forward. Or people supporting victims having their careers sidelined. I'm pretty confident the CAF can get creative with this.


Okay.  Then anyone who donated should try and remove their digital footprint buy a bunker and hide out for a bit. 

You happen to know that that is why they are investigating that member?  Just the banner?


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Okay.  Then anyone who donated should try and remove their digital footprint buy a bunker and hide out for a bit.


Buying a bunker sounds like a prelude to criminal activity. Probably should cease their bank accounts to be safe.



Remius said:


> You happen to know that that is why they are investigating that member?  Just the banner?


That's the word.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I know of one CAF member participating in the protest.  He hasn’t broken any rules or laws.  No one is going after him.
> 
> Curious.  Have any CAF members used their forces account to donate?


0
Actually, going to rethink my position based on this. If you use a affiliated email(private, government etc) vice a private one, even with anonymity, they should not automatically be free of consequences even in a hack.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Buying a bunker sounds like a prelude to criminal activity. Probably should cease their bank accounts to be safe.
> 
> 
> That's the word.


So if it’s just a banner the. What’s the worry.  Investigate could mean his COC is looking into it.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> 0
> Actually, going to rethink my position based on this. If you use a affiliated email(private, government etc) vice a private one, even with anonymity, they should not automatically be free of consequences even in a hack.
> View attachment 68747


There are rules about using your government email.   I suspect that this would fall under that. And whatever penalties are used for that.  Same as in the PS.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> So if it’s just a banner the. What’s the worry.  Investigate could mean his COC is looking into it.


If you have to ask what's the worry I suspect you've never seen the CAF unfairly single someone out to make an example out of them. Let's see how it plays out.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> There are rules about using your government email.   I suspect that this would fall under that. And whatever penalties are used for that.  Same as in the PS.


Selectively applied. 

There were a number of GOs on the Ashley Madison list, none lost their jobs…and arguably such activity could be related to issues with one’s security clearance.  Nothing done.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Ya I have a strong disagreement with ending or denying people employment for political reasons but you also shouldn't be using your Gov email to take political action.

Even that shouldn't cause more than some remedial training.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Selectively applied.
> 
> There were a number of GOs on the Ashley Madison list, none lost their jobs…and arguably such activity could be related to issues with one’s security clearance.  Nothing done.


I thought it fell under the same rational as using FB for communications?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Not sure it gets any clearer than that.    It didn’t say Isabeau-Ringuette is no longer an employee of MPP Sylvia Jones’ riding office, she was the Solicitor General’s Director of Communications.



From the Public Service of Ontario Act

Employment in a minister’s office
*47 *An individual designated by the Premier in relation to a minister’s office for the purposes of this section or, if no such individual is designated, the minister may appoint persons to employment by the Crown to work in the minister’s office for a fixed term.  2006, c. 35, Sched. A, s. 47.

Dismissal without cause
50 (1) An individual designated by the Premier in relation to a minister’s office for the purposes of section 47 or, if no such individual is designated, the minister *may without cause dismiss a public servant appointed under section 47* by giving the public servant reasonable notice or by giving the public servant compensation in lieu of notice.  2006, c. 35, Sched. A, s. 50 (1).

This is who works (_or worked, the lady in question is still listed at time of this post_) in the Solicitor General's office (or at leaast the non-peons).  I assume that all (or most) are appointed under s.47.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Honest question BTW.

Would it have made more sense for the truckers in Ottawa to have declared victory and left about 3 days ago?

Almost every province has either removed restrictions and the vax pass or has given a date for when they are going to do so. I argue that even if they had sat down with politicians they wouldn't have gotten a better deal than that.

They could have taken credit for the lifting of restrictions and gone home heroes in their own heads at least.

This all or nothing approach is a strategic error on their part.


----------



## KevinB (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Honest question BTW.
> 
> Would it have made more sense for the truckers in Ottawa to have declared victory and left about 3 days ago?


Yup


Altair said:


> Almost every province has either removed restrictions and the vax pass or has given a date for when they are going to do so. I argue that even if they had sat down with politicians they wouldn't have gotten a better deal than that.
> 
> They could have taken credit for the lifting of restrictions and gone home heroes in their own heads at least.
> 
> This all or nothing approach is a strategic error on their part.


The problem when you bring forth the mob, is that one cannot control it.
  Plus I suspect some ego's and agendas are opposed to just simply going away quietly.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Selectively applied.
> 
> There were a number of GOs on the Ashley Madison list, none lost their jobs…and arguably such activity could be related to issues with one’s security clearance.  Nothing done.







__





						Archived [2020-03-31]  - Policy on Acceptable Network and Device Use- Canada.ca
					






					www.tbs-sct.gc.ca
				




Treasury board guidelines.  Anyone working for the government signed something in regards to usage of IT and emails. There is annex about acceptable use.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> If you have to ask what's the worry I suspect you've never seen the CAF unfairly single someone out to make an example out of them to everyone else.


I have seen it,  I’ve also seen it applied fairly as well.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Yup
> 
> The problem when you bring forth the mob, is that one cannot control it.


The main organizers declare victory and drive out of town, others get the hint. Also shrinks the crowd that remains.


KevinB said:


> Plus I suspect some ego's and agendas are opposed to just simply going away quietly.


Yeah, it really undercuts their ability to 

A) Show anything positive from their movement

B) Say they were willing to negotiate. 

Because since it started, I would say most provinces, and even the feds responded by lifting and planning to lift some restrictions.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> From the Public Service of Ontario Act
> 
> Employment in a minister’s office
> *47 *An individual designated by the Premier in relation to a minister’s office for the purposes of this section or, if no such individual is designated, the minister may appoint persons to employment by the Crown to work in the minister’s office for a fixed term.  2006, c. 35, Sched. A, s. 47.
> ...



So I’m not seeing where I was incorrect to consider the SolGen’s Dir. of Communications a public servant? 🤷🏻‍♂️  



Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what point you’re trying to make?  I thought it was pretty clear they shouldn’t have, but nothing apparent to anyone who saw the list being done - the GOs’ careers carried in (and up) for several years to follow.  That influenced my trust in the system to appropriately deal with situations, particularly involving senior ranks in the CAF.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I have seen it,  I’ve also seen it applied fairly as well.


Then if you've seen the CAF behave unethically you've answered your question about what is there to worry about. Wait and see I guess.


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> If you have to ask what's the worry I suspect you've never seen the CAF unfairly single someone out to make an example out of them. Let's see how it plays out.


Heretic! Heretic! That has never happened, and even when it did it was completely justified. Sounds like you may need a  little "investigating" yourself, mister.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The main organizers declare victory and drive out of town, others get the hint. Also shrinks the crowd that remains.
> 
> Yeah, it really undercuts their ability to
> 
> ...


The federal government has not yet negotiated with them.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> The federal government has not yet negotiated with them.


No, they have not. 

But what did they want? (lets ignore the overthrowing the government nonsense that should have been an idea that died at inception)

Less restrictions. 

What has been happening? The lifting and plans to lift restrictions. Is it due to them causing a fuss? Maybe, maybe not. But to take credit for it and drive home would have been the wiser policy as opposed to stick it out until removed by force.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So I’m not seeing where I was incorrect to consider the SolGen’s Dir. of Communications a public servant? 🤷🏻‍♂️


Sure.  Just wanted to make sure you knew what a political staffer was.  They can be fired without cause.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> The federal government has not yet negotiated with them.


Who? Lich?  Pat king?  Protest Santa? 

They seem disjointed as an org.

Mind you it’s not clear who the protesters should be negotiating with.  The city the province or the feds.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Who? Lich?  Pat king?  Protest Santa?
> 
> They seem disjointed as an org.
> 
> Mind you it’s not clear who the protesters should be negotiating with.  The city the province or the feds.



If they haven't talked to them, how do they know who they are or what they want ?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Feb 2022)

I bet if you doxxed the Liberal party donors list, a bunch of government emails will pop up.


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If they haven't talked to them, how do they know who they are or what they want ?


They did release a memorandum of understanding, but beyond that they did state publicly that they wanted restrictions lifted.

Which, regardless of every level of government not negotiating with them, has been happening.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> No, they have not.
> 
> But what did they want? (lets ignore the overthrowing the government nonsense that should have been an idea that died at inception)
> 
> ...


What was the original reason for going?
To protest the vaccination requirements for truckers. Has this been lifted? Has any headway or timeline been given on lifting these restrictions?
No, in fact the liberal government voted down a motion to make a plan to lift these measures. 

They are all in. Same as our Dear Leader. Any sign of weakness on either side is admitting defeat at this point.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Sure.  Just wanted to make sure you knew what a political staffer was.  They can be fired without cause.


Quite aware of what a ‘staffer’ is, but it’s also an informal term, of course as you know, since the word ‘staffer’ doesn’t actually appear in the Ontario Public Service Act in the relevant section regarding being a….public servant…working in the Minister’s Office…


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> What was the original reason for going?
> To protest the vaccination requirements for truckers. Has this been lifted? Has any headway or timeline been given on lifting these restrictions?
> No, in fact the liberal government voted down a motion to make a plan to lift these measures.
> 
> They are all in. Same as our Dear Leader. Any sign of weakness on either side is admitting defeat at this point.


Which is why I said if they framed the provinces lifting restrictions as a victory would have been better than the COA they have chosen.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

"Strategy" expected from amorphous protest: very little.

"Strategy" expected from GoC: very much.

First met expectations.  Second did not.  If the GoC is going to play the game against people that don't fit in as if the country is a newsroom or faculty lounge, tempers are going to get a lot shorter at some point.


----------



## Remius (16 Feb 2022)

Not much we can do from here.  Things are obviously being put into motion. 

Meanwhile in Ottawa. Council is a mess.  In the middle of this and all this Infighting lol. No wonder the city is upset.









						Ottawa police board hired new chief without competition: sources
					

The Ottawa police services board moved to hire former Waterloo police chief Matthew Torigian, sources tell CTV News Ottawa.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "Strategy" expected from amorphous protest: very little.
> 
> "Strategy" expected from GoC: very much.
> 
> First met expectations.  Second did not.  If the GoC is going to play the game against people that don't fit in as if the country is a newsroom or faculty lounge, tempers are going to get a lot shorter at some point.


First, regardless of expectations, if the protest had employed even a little bit of strategic thinking they come out of this ahead and as a potential force in terms of protest movements holding at least a bit of power. 

Secondly, lets be honest. You don't expect anything from the GoC.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (16 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> What was the original reason for going?
> To protest the vaccination requirements for truckers. Has this been lifted? Has any headway or timeline been given on lifting these restrictions?
> No, in fact the liberal government voted down a motion to make a plan to lift these measures.
> 
> They are all in. Same as our Dear Leader. Any sign of weakness on either side is admitting defeat at this point.


You do realise this arrangements are reciprocal right?


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Yup
> 
> The problem when you bring forth the mob, is that one cannot control it.
> Plus I suspect some ego's and agendas are opposed to just simply going away quietly.



And don't forget Alinsky's Rule 6

"A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

And folks seem to be enjoying themselves.

But, on the other hand, they can't forget 7

"A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."


----------



## RangerRay (16 Feb 2022)

Would I be dreaming in technicolor if the Feds finally got religious on money laundering because of this?


----------



## Altair (16 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Would I be dreaming in technicolor if the Feds finally got religious on money laundering because of this?


If the feds got serious on money laundering then the housing market takes a hit...so no.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Would I be dreaming in technicolor if the Feds finally got religious on money laundering because of this?


Yup.

Canada appears content to be the G-7 miscreant when it comes to money laundering…at least the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) recently upgraded Canada from “Enhanced Follow-Up Reporting” (ie. Taken to. Store by parent) to “Regular Follow-Up Reporting” (allowed to go to the store by itself with limited cash)


----------



## OceanBonfire (16 Feb 2022)

> The Canadian Anti-Hate Network identified patches on one of the vests as belonging to an emerging right-wing militia network known as Diagolon.











						Anti-hate experts concerned about possible neo-fascist involvement at Alberta trucker convoy  | Globalnews.ca
					

The Canadian Anti-Hate Network tweeted on Monday that gear seized by police at Coutts includes a plate carrier with Diagolon patches.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Truckers end blockade at Alberta border crossing, 4 charged with conspiracy to commit murder
					

A blockade that paralyzed a United States border crossing for more than two weeks ended Tuesday as trucks and other vehicles with horns blaring rolled away from a southern Alberta town.




					calgary.ctvnews.ca
				












						4 charged with conspiracy to murder after raid on Coutts blockade  | Globalnews.ca
					

Eleven individuals were in a Lethbridge court facing weapons, mischief and conspiracy to murder charges, following a raid at the Coutts border blockade.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Analysis of guns and ammunition seized near Coutts, Alta. blockade
					

The mixed cache of weapons and ammunition seized by RCMP near Coutts Monday could carry heavy legal penalties and suggest some were planning for violence.




					calgary.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Feb 2022)

Wouldn't "neo-nazi" make it a left wing hate group??


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Analysis of guns and ammunition seized near Coutts, Alta. blockade
> 
> 
> The mixed cache of weapons and ammunition seized by RCMP near Coutts Monday could carry heavy legal penalties and suggest some were planning for violence.
> ...


Picking fly shit out of pepper here but



> So, an owner with a Restricted Possession and Acquisition License can drive to their gun club and back home — as long as the handgun is unloaded, locked up and not visible from outside the vehicle – and everything is legal.
> 
> * "If you stopped for a McDonalds, that's illegal.*



No it's not. But the rules are written ambiguously enough that a police officer may likely think it is and confiscate your firearm requiring a few thousand in court fee's to return it.



> Less obvious to most is the apparent body armour displayed in the seizure.


Those don't have any kevlar in them and they don't look to have plates in them so not body armor.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2022)

Regarding the protest and Nazi's, In a Q&A period Trudeau accused Conservative party members of standing with people who wave swastikas.

I wonder if he regrets saying it to a Jewish LGBTQ MP.

(apologies, I couldn't find a less immature youtube clip/page- mods may want to remove)


----------



## RangerRay (16 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Regarding the protest and Nazi's, In a Q&A period Trudeau accused Conservative party members of standing with people who wave swastikas.
> 
> I wonder if he regrets saying it to a Jewish LGBTQ MP.
> 
> (apologies, I couldn't find a less immature youtube clip/page)


The last clip, for those who don’t know, is Stephen LeDrew. He is the former president of the Liberal Party of Canada and a strong critic of PMJT.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

No worries.  Most people know that the Nazi/Confederate presence was very, very small.

As for who stands with who: "There's a level of admiration I actually have for China. Their basic dictatorship is actually allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime."

And most people know what China is doing these days.


----------



## RangerRay (16 Feb 2022)

The latest from The Line. 









						Emergencies Act Emergency Dispatch: Checking the convoy naughty list (twice)
					

Sloly is broke, the Emergencies Act is Woke, and Doxxing is still bad, em'kay?




					theline.substack.com
				






> We haven't lost our minds, don't worry. We maintain a very healthy skepticism of government claims that lack strong evidence. But this does, generally, align with what _The Line w_as hearing last week about a hard-core element hidden among a larger, frustrated protest movement. If the feds have concluded, as we believe they might have, that there is an organized, anti-government faction at play, then the government could indeed make a case that such a threat would be beyond the ability of any province or local jurisdiction to handle alone. We aren't saying we buy it, and we'd like to see the feds make this case more explicitly. But it's worth thinking about. Is an organized threat to any and all border crossings inherently a matter that only the federal government can manage?


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Feb 2022)

If there's a threat to border crossings, it existed before this started and is likely to exist afterward.  Eventually, probably very soon, the government is going to have to figure out how to deal with it long-term using "ordinary" measures.  Presumably government has dropped the ball up to now, or they wouldn't need to give themselves "emergency" powers.


----------



## lenaitch (16 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> The police in Ottawa been solidly not doing their jobs for 3 weeks now, using every excuse in the book.
> 
> *They have asked for 1800 additional officers and the province and Feds have....not done that.*
> 
> ...


I have seen no evidence that the feds and the province have refused to step up to the plate with police resources.  Windsor obviously asked and got what they needed in a day or two.

What, I suspect, is the other services were wanting to see a plan before committing their people, and they didn't.  OPS went through, what, 2 or 3 incident commanders in the first couple of weeks?  Doesn't sound like functional leadership to me.  Police leaders in the OPP, RCMP et al are accountable for their people.

I saw an article from TBay that the OPP is shuttling people down from the northwest via their Pilatus.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not much we can do from here.  Things are obviously being put into motion.
> 
> Meanwhile in Ottawa. Council is a mess.  In the middle of this and all this Infighting lol. No wonder the city is upset.
> 
> ...



Yeah, how dare *City councilors attempt to act on the citizens’ behalf.



> "It was the board's decision to make, it was made thoughtfully and I'm [counc. Deans] just actually gobsmacked that council, who have very little understanding of the very complex world of police, have decided to use this political ploy to second guess the people that serve on that board."


Apparently Councillor Deans is/was absolutely time deaf as the failed Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board…zero leadership and a level of arrogance to fellow councillors and citizens alike.

Good riddance!




Jarnhamar said:


> Regarding the protest and Nazi's, In a Q&A period Trudeau accused Conservative party members of standing with people who wave swastikas.
> 
> I wonder if he regrets saying it to a Jewish LGBTQ MP.
> 
> (apologies, I couldn't find a less immature youtube clip/page- mods may want to remove)



Clearly MP Lantsman, although a descendant of Nazi holocaust survivors, should have  experienced the PM’s accusation of standing with those who wave swastikas, differently…you know, less personally…and meant more in the ‘inclusive, diverse’ way that the PM must have meant as an empathetic, inclusive leader… [/s]

What a disgusting and incredibly disrespectful partisan shot at a fellow member of Parliament.


----------



## mariomike (17 Feb 2022)

Regarding anti-semitism at the protest. 


			holocaust ottawa protest - Google Search
		


Karina Gould is a Jewish woman. A desendent of Holocaust survivors.

Minister of Families, Children and Social Development of Canada


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494062688367874052


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493670517420793858



> CPC is trying to thread the needle so they land somewhere between “we LOVE freedom-lovin’ truckers!” and “anti-Semitism? Where? We didn’t see any of that! How dare you say that!” .


----------



## lenaitch (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, how dare *City councilors attempt to act on the citizens’ behalf.
> 
> 
> Apparently Councillor Deans is/was absolutely time deaf as the failed Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board…zero leadership and a level of arrogance to fellow councillors and citizens alike.
> ...


Ya, no kidding.  If I'm following the flurry of media coverage correctly, she signed up the ex-chief of Waterloo Regional.  The Board gets to do that, but she isn't the Board.  The Police Services Act gives the hire-fire authority to the Board, but the 'how' is not codified.  Most hire consultants/head hunters, set up community committees, etc. (sometimes endlessly, like Toronto) but they are not compelled to.

This is board governance 101.  Apparently a couple of other Board members resigned as well.  Sounds like some fun factioning going on.  Too often, municipal politics in Ontario is like a dysfunctional family TV sitcom.


----------



## dapaterson (17 Feb 2022)

In other news, the convoy navy has arrived.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494332726752649220


----------



## Furniture (17 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> In other news, the convoy navy has arrived.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494332726752649220


The spring thaw is coming, maybe he's onto something...


----------



## Haggis (17 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Ya, no kidding.  If I'm following the flurry of media coverage correctly, she signed up the ex-chief of Waterloo Regional.  The Board gets to do that, but she isn't the Board.  The Police Services Act gives the hire-fire authority to the Board, but the 'how' is not codified.  Most hire consultants/head hunters, set up community committees, etc. (sometimes endlessly, like Toronto) but they are not compelled to.
> 
> This is board governance 101.  Apparently a couple of other Board members resigned as well.  Sounds like some fun factioning going on.  Too often, municipal politics in Ontario is like a dysfunctional family TV sitcom.


And we all thought the convoy was the only show in town.


----------



## Kirkhill (17 Feb 2022)

Cpunterpoint









						Kazakhstan Investigates 181 Cases Related to Mass Riots and Terrorism During January Unrest - The Astana Times
					

NUR-SULTAN – The Prosecutor General’s Office continues to investigate crimes committed during the January events with a total of 3,096 pre-trial investigations, said Yeldos Kilimzhanov, deputy head of the first services of the Prosecutor’s General Office at a press briefing late on Wednesday...




					astanatimes.com
				





Or this, mostly peaceful but fiery protest, 



Or 





__





						George Floyd protests in Portland, Oregon - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## winds_13 (17 Feb 2022)

Apparently the CEO of B'nai Brith has weighed in on the PM's recent comments to MP Melissa Lantsman,:

“B’nai Brith Canada unequivocally condemns any display of swastikas. We also believe it is not acceptable to respond to a Jewish MP’s question in the House of Commons with a comment that can be perceived by Canadians as suggesting her support,” said Michael Mostyn, CEO of B’nai Brith. “This misperception should not be permitted to stand. We would hope the prime minister promptly addresses this matter.”









						WARMINGTON: Accusing Jewish MP of 'standing with swastika' new low for PM
					

A Jewish Conservative MP is demanding an apology from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, insisting he falsely accused her and her colleagues of “standing with a…




					torontosun.com
				




I am unsure on what grounds the convoy is being dismissed as "standing with the swastika". Recent counter-protests in Ottawa prominently displayed the Soviet Flag, does that mean they are also sided with defunct totalitarian regimes responsible for mass genocide?


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

Hard to reconcile sudden disavowal of symbols of hate by people travelling in the tribe that for so long had pictures of Lenin, Mao, Castro, Che etc on their walls and t-shirts.


----------



## FSTO (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hard to reconcile sudden disavowal of symbols of hate by people travelling in the tribe that for so long had pictures of Lenin, Mao, Castro, Che etc on their walls and t-shirts.


Well as long as there is no picture of Stalin its all good right?


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hard to reconcile sudden disavowal of symbols of hate by people travelling in the tribe that for so long had pictures of Lenin, Mao, Castro, Che etc on their walls and t-shirts.


These people do not understand true Communism. If they did most would  be quick to disavow it. I bet some would embrace it with enthusiasm though.


----------



## mariomike (17 Feb 2022)

Will the "Freedom" rally, and political team(s) which embrace it, influence Jewish ( or Sikh community  ) voters in the next election?



> Watch what happens when the normally-Team red friendly Sikh community from 604 and 416/905 starts to question Team Red’s lack of support…



Just have to watch what happens...


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> These people do not understand true Communism. If they did most would  be quick to disavow it. I bet some would embrace it with enthusiasm though.


Both sides don’t understand true communism,  the ones cheering and hoping for it and the other side that thinks that is where a Canada is at. 

Extreme arguments from both sides.


----------



## KevinB (17 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> These people do not understand true Communism. If they did most would  be quick to disavow it. I bet some would embrace it with enthusiasm though.


I'd argue there is no such thing - outside of very small hippie communes.
   That only exist in a Democratic country (ironic right?)


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

Supporters of communism often respond to critics with "True communism has never been tried"; they are partially correct.  True communism has never been achieved, but it certainly has been tried.  It always goes off the rails because people are unsuited to communism.  People duck out on the "from each according to his ability" part, and increasing force (tyranny) becomes necessary to try to stitch everything together.

Stalin, like Pol Pot, is enough of an embarrassment that he doesn't make the t-shirt list.  But it must be a hell of a threshold for embarrassment if the others do make the list.

But the contemporary happy horsesh!t that sometimes emanates from well-known people supporting the Chinese government is enough to call them out.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

And there it is…









						Trudeau minister threatens to seize accounts of 'pro-Trump' convoy donors
					

David Lametti was questioned about whether people who made donations to the trucker convoy will have accounts seized.




					torontosun.com
				






> The justice minister in Justin Trudeau’s government has said that *if you hold the wrong political views, you should be worried about your bank account*.



and using such sweeping and (not so) precisely defined scope and wording as:



> “If you are a *member of a pro-Trump movement* [how is this defined?] who is donating hundreds of thousands of dollars, and millions of dollars *to this kind of thing*, [protest, blockade, what?] then you ought to be worried,” Lametti said.



…but trust the Government…



> The declaration of emergency goes so far as to “require any financial service provider to determine whether they have in their possession or control property that belongs to a person who participates in the blockade.” That could see the *bank accounts of people who attended the protest but didn’t fund them frozen at the direction of the government.*



…and what other activities?

PMJT edges closer to his admired political role model, so it might seem.


----------



## QV (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And there it is…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Curious, is there a single person here that supports this?


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> In other news, the convoy navy has arrived.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494332726752649220


And the RCN yields the battlespace as they are hopelessly out gunned.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> And the RCN yields the battlespace as they are hopelessly out gunned.



Hey!  My Martini Henry will hold out like Rourkes Drift


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And there it is…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will they be ok with this when they lose and election and Pandora's box turns around on them ?


----------



## Furniture (17 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Hey!  My Martini Henry will hold out like Rourkes Drift


Only if you have enough top tenors compared to their bass section...


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Will they be ok with this when they lose and election and Pandora's box turns around on them ?


This proposed action needs a swift and severe push back. Constitutional lawyers and the civil liberties people should publicly scold him and his master for this COA.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Both sides don’t understand true communism,  the ones cheering and hoping for it and the other side that thinks that is where a Canada is at.
> 
> Extreme arguments from both sides.


Agreed on this. I often laugh at people wearing Che T shirts. They really have no clue about him.


----------



## Kirkhill (17 Feb 2022)

This is American.

But I suggest it applies in Canada, the UK, France, Denmark and the rest of the OECD.



> “More in Common,” dissected the electorate into seven segments which range from Progressive Activists on the left to Devoted Conservatives on the right. In their October 2018 report, the authors assert that* the five groups in the ideological middle (Traditional Liberals, Passive Liberals, Politically Disengaged, Moderates, and Traditional Conservatives) make up an “exhausted majority” that disdains name-calling and polarization, even though they haven’t figured out how to stop it.*





> “When we first examined the Five Tribes of American voters, we were struck that even when we got beyond current events and the 24-hour political news cycles, Americans were deeply divided about the country we all share,” notes Jonathan Chavez, chief analytics officer for RealClear Opinion Research.
> 
> “In the ensuing 3½ years, we’ve only seen those divisions deepen, as disruptions to the daily lives of many have caused many to re-examine some of their most closely held values,” Chavez added. “What I’m most struck by from this survey is that divisions are not just partisan: Within both parties, we see fundamental disagreements about America, its history, and its future.”





			https://www.realclearpolitics.com/real_clear_opinion_research/revisiting_the_five_tribes_of_american_voters.html


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

Scolding isn't enough.  Someone will have to have something actionable that they can take to court as a challenge.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Scolding isn't enough.  Someone will have to have something actionable that they can take to court as a challenge.


Well I hate to be that guy but someone "small" ie poor has to have an account frozen by the banks or government. 

The justice minister in Justin Trudeau’s government has said that *if you hold the wrong political views, you should be worried about your bank account*.  
As for this who decides what is the "right" political view? He's sounding an awful lot like some of those underlings in the Soviet Regimes. 

"To the Gulag until you learn the error of your ways"


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

__





						CityNews
					






					toronto.citynews.ca
				






> Two-thirds of Canadians support Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s decision to invoke the Emergencies Act to help handle the protests across the country, according to a new survey.
> 
> The Maru Public Opinion poll shows majority support for the measure in every province across the country with more than 70 per cent of those in B.C., Atlantic Canada and Quebec strongly in favour of the move while 65 per cent of those in Ontario approve. Those most likely to oppose invoking the Act can be found in Alberta (49 per cent) and Saskatchewan (43 per cent) where premiers of both those provinces have voiced their displeasure with the move.



While everyone here is not happy with it, Justin Trudeau is out there playing politics to win.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Who wants to bet the EA goes for more than 27 days (remaining of the 30-day period) unless
The Government has deftly not started the clock yet (while banks get a freebie front-end funds freezing pass)…


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Two-thirds of Canadians support use of Emergencies Act and want Freedom Convoy cleared out: poll
					

But at the same time, 54 per cent of Canadians say they are 'ashamed' of how politicians have let the Freedom Convoy protests get out of hand




					nationalpost.com
				




From a less left leaning source.



> OTTAWA – Two-thirds of Canadians support Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s decision to invoke the Emergencies Act and believe it’s time to clear out Freedom Convoy protesters in Ottawa, even if people get hurt in the process, reveals a new poll.



Again, the average canadian just wants this to end and at this point, dont care how its done.

Again, the CPC finds itself offsides with the majority of Canadians.

PP voicing full throated support for the convoy will not play out well.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

Yeah, been reading a lot of different websites with different political flavours.

Somehow these protests have managed to flip the script for who tolerates protests and who doesn't.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Two-thirds of Canadians support use of Emergencies Act and want Freedom Convoy cleared out: poll
> 
> 
> But at the same time, 54 per cent of Canadians say they are 'ashamed' of how politicians have let the Freedom Convoy protests get out of hand
> ...


I want it to end. I very much care how it's done, and so should you.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I want it to end. I very much care how it's done, and so should you.


I never said that i dont care how it ends, but it appears the majority of Canadians no longer care if people get hurt bringing this to an end.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah, been reading a lot of different websites with different political flavours.
> 
> Somehow these protests have managed to flip the script for who tolerates protests and who doesn't.


Said it before and will say it again.

This convoy has managed to unite canadians...against them.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

Friedrich Hayek (“Law, Legislation and Liberty, Volume 3” published in 1979):



> ‘Emergencies’ have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded – and once they are suspended it is not difficult for anyone who has assumed emergency powers to see to it that the emergency will persist.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

> This convoy has managed to unite canadians...against them.



Most protests are minorities (usually very small minorities) who annoy the people who are inconvenienced.

What is illuminating this time around is how fast the people who can usually be counted on to support and endure protests and pay lip service to restraint and tolerance shat themselves and starting punching up extraordinary and illiberal measures.  A couple of them have let slip that their displeasure extends beyond the immediate protests and blockades and to the way they imagine the protestors think, and where the protestors' political sympathies might lie.  That sh!t isn't going back into the horse.

It tends to validate Jonah Goldberg's theory in "Liberal Fascism" - to the extent fascism emerges in pluralistic modern democratic societies, it emerges from progressives.


----------



## Kirkhill (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Said it before and will say it again.
> 
> This convoy has managed to unite canadians...against them.




Altair - I have said it before and will say it again.

Whose Canadians?   Your Canadians - in your bubble?  My Canadians - in my bubble ( a very small bubble)?  Or Real Canadians - whoever they may be?

And polls are not an answer - many rebellions, revolutions and even policy changes have been driven by minorities (the modern Grandaddy of them all being the Bolsheviks).  The IRA is carried by a tiny minority.

As for the nationalist view that borders matter - borders have never prevented the flow of ideas, money or motivated people.

Brad beat me to the punch.


----------



## Kirkhill (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I never said that i dont care how it ends, but it appears the majority of Canadians no longer care if people get hurt bringing this to an end.



Needed to take another look at that.

One needs to be careful of one's wishes.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Most protests are minorities (usually very small minorities) who annoy the people who are inconvenienced.
> 
> What is illuminating this time around is how fast the people who can usually be counted on to support and endure protests and pay lip service to restraint and tolerance shat themselves and starting punching up extraordinary and illiberal measures.  A couple of them have let slip that their displeasure extends beyond the immediate protests and blockades and to the way they imagine the protestors think, and where the protestors' political sympathies might lie.  That sh!t isn't going back into the horse.
> 
> It tends to validate Jonah Goldberg's theory in "Liberal Fascism" - to the extent fascism emerges in pluralistic modern democratic societies, it emerges from progressives.


Or that this group has gone outside the norms of usual protests and as suvh has eroded public goodwill at a much faster rate than other protests.

BLM protests didnt bring trucks to block roadways. They had masses of people.

First nations protestors brough vehicles, but they sticked to or nearby their traditional lands.

The convoys entered cities, residential areas,  ports of entry, and blocked them with vehicles.

And then proceeded to honk very loud horns in residential areas. 

Again, so far outside the norms that canadians are supportive of a harsh crackdown on them. 

I mean, unless you are calling 66 percent of canadians facists.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Altair - I have said it before and will say it again.
> 
> Whose Canadians?   Your Canadians - in your bubble?  My Canadians - in my bubble ( a very small bubble)?  Or Real Canadians - whoever they may be?
> 
> ...


Canadians.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I never said that i dont care how it ends, but it appears the majority of Canadians no longer care if people get hurt bringing this to an end.


…until they find themselves on the receiving end of a funds freeze for whatever their own particular beliefs and principles represent.

Slippery slope indeed.

EA got whipped out faster than Harper’s CF-18s!


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

> I mean, unless you are calling 66 percent of canadians facists.



Partly, yes.  They didn't even have to be scared into this; inconvenience and some economic disruption was enough.

To be clear: I don't GAFF about the opinion of the majority when the majority is wrong.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Partly, yes.  They didn't even have to be scared into this; inconvenience and some economic disruption was enough.
> 
> To be clear: I don't GAFF about the opinion of the majority when the majority is wrong.


Shame elections dont work on that principle.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

Reminder of what Lametti (the Justice Minister) recently said: “Well, I think if you are a member of a pro-Trump movement who’s donating hundreds of thousands of dollars and millions of dollars to this kind of thing, then you oughta be worried.”

Sometimes the sh!t just slips out.  Political affiliations and leanings should not be part of the discussion.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …until they find themselves on the receiving end of a funds freeze for whatever their own particular beliefs and principles represent.
> 
> Slippery slope indeed.
> 
> EA got whipped out faster than Harper’s CF-18s!


Again, when the majority of canadians support the EA, people running the protest need to reflect on their tactics, and how its turning people against them to such a degree.

And to those supporting the convoy, they should reflect on what exactly they are supporting.

When the majority of Canadians support the EA and dont much care about hurting people to shut the convoy down, a massive strategic error has been made on the part of those running the protest.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Reminder of what Lametti (the Justice Minister) recently said: “Well, I think if you are a member of a pro-Trump movement who’s donating hundreds of thousands of dollars and millions of dollars to this kind of thing, then you oughta be worried.”
> 
> Sometimes the sh!t just slips out.  Political affiliations and leanings should not be part of the discussion.


If he had said pro Putin or pro Erdogan would that have also been a faux pas?

Just curious.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

> when the majority of canadians support the EA



Whether or not a majority of Canadians support it is irrelevant.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

> If he had said pro Putin or pro Erdogan would that have also been a faux pas?



Yes, but that's not what his hind brain inserted there.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Whether or not a majority of Canadians support it is irrelevant.


How did you come to that conclusion?


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> If he had said pro Putin or pro Erdogan would that have also been a faux pas?
> 
> Just curious.


He could have even said ‘pro-Jinping’ (not that the current government would even dare…it’s leader is on record saying he admires Jinping) and it would still have been wrong to say.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> He could have even said ‘pro-Jinping’ (not that the current government would even dare…it’s leader is on record saying he admires Jinping) and it would still have been wrong to say.


I guess I dont have as much of a problem with mentioning outside political forces.

Its less right wing, left wing as a Canadian versus not Canadian.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

> How did you come to that conclusion?



The opinion of a majority/mob isn't how these things are justified, either before or after.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Feb 2022)

I would Hazzard to guess 66% of the people who support use of the EA have no idea what it actually means and the Pandora's box that is being opened. 

As usual Canadians not paying attention and instead following nice socks and empty platitudes...


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The opinion of a majority/mob isn't how these things are justified, either before or after.


Justification wise, you are correct. Parliament and the courts will decide that.

But in the terms of politics? Its very relevant.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would Hazzard to guess 66% of the people who support use of the EA have no idea what it actually means and the Pandora's box that is being opened.
> 
> As usual Canadians not paying attention and instead following nice socks and empty platitudes...


When people just want things to end they stop caring as much about how it is done.

The telling part is that people dont care if others get hurt in shutting the protest down. That's not a case of needing to know the ins and outs of the EA. It's a far more simple people getting hurt or not  and the majority of people do not GAF.


----------



## Scott (17 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would Hazzard to guess 66% of the people who support use of the EA have no idea what it actually means and the Pandora's box that is being opened.
> 
> As usual Canadians not paying attention and instead following nice socks and empty platitudes...


Go ahead, keep on saying it. Drop the Justin Castro in there again too, for a laugh.

Then wonder why the fuck the CPC new shiny pony cratered again.

Christ, show voters a little respect.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> When people just want things to end they stop caring as much about how it is done.
> 
> The telling part is that people dont care if others get hurt in shutting the protest down. That's not a case of needing to know the ins and outs of the EA. It's a far more simple people getting hurt or not  and the majority of people do not GAF.


Well to be fair, they were pretty okay with burning, looting, pillaging, assaults and murders, so it's business as usual I guess.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Go ahead, keep on saying it. Drop the Justin Castro in there again too, for a laugh.
> 
> Then wonder why the fuck the CPC new shiny pony cratered again.
> 
> Christ, show voters a little respect.


Yeah, the CPC seems commited to handing Justin Trudeau as many terms as he wants.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Go ahead, keep on saying it. Drop the Justin Castro in there again too, for a laugh.
> 
> Then wonder why the fuck the CPC new shiny pony cratered again.
> 
> Christ, show voters a little respect.



Relax.  People are allowed to think this is the wrong call without having to think Castro is JTs Dad.  

Hell my wife just told me she agreed with it and then couldn't tell me what EA stood for or what happens when it's enacted.  

Pardon me if I don't think the public took enough civics classes.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yeah, the CPC seems commited to handing Justin Trudeau as many terms as he wants.



100% imagine how big his head will be after this next win!


----------



## Navy_Pete (17 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> 100% imagine how big his head will be after this next win!


I don't know, it's hard to get worked up when you win because the opposing team is a disaster. I think at this point they just let the CPC keep the puck around their own zone and just wait for the self goals and unforced errors. Still a W, but hardly something to feel good about your efforts.

Being not as shit as the alernative isn't really something you can put on a self help book as a sales pitch.


----------



## QV (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Said it before and will say it again.
> 
> This convoy has managed to unite canadians...against them.


Citizens of downtown Ottawa maybe, the zoom class. But hardly Canadians.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Citizens of downtown Ottawa maybe, the zoom class. But hardly Canadians.


Unless 66 percent of canadians live in ottawa, i would say you're very wrong sir.


----------



## QV (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Unless 66 percent of canadians live in ottawa, i would say you're very wrong sir.


The polls are shit.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> The polls are shit.


Ah yes, when in doubt, blame the polls.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2022)

In politics, the time between lowering the bar for something for short-term gain and getting bitten hard by the consequences is pretty shorts - months to a couple of years - these days.  That'll have to do as my smug satisfaction for the day.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Unless 66 percent of canadians live in ottawa, i would say you're very wrong sir.


You sure like to use percentages, don’t you?

How’s Trudeau doing with % vaccinated by end-September…..2021.  🥱


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You sure like to use percentages, don’t you?
> 
> How’s Trudeau doing with % vaccinated by end-September…..2021.  🥱


Good, he reached it in July. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-vaccine-all-eligible-canadians-1.6118908
		




> Canada has enough COVID-19 vaccine doses to fully vaccinate everyone eligible in the country, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said at a Moncton, N.B., vaccine clinic this morning.
> 
> The arrival of five million doses this week will bring the total to over 66 million — enough for all 33.2 million Canadians 12 and older. Children under 12 are not yet eligible to receive a vaccine.



But back to the topic at hand, 



> Maru’s poll shows that 66 per cent of Canadians support the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act and 67 per cent say it’s time to clear out all protesters in Ottawa, even if it means “people who will not leave may get hurt, or worse.”





> His report found that 68 per cent of Canadians believe that any politician who either contributed to or supported the protests should be voted out of office. Wright says some of the most profound change may come to municipal leadership in the cities most affected by the convoys.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Good, he reached it in July.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Derp


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

People only give credence to polls when it supports their side. And when they can’t win an argument they deflect, add whataboutism and devolve to insults.  

The level of discourse in this country is reflected in this very thread. 

There was a question earlier about what Canadians are we talking about?  Yours?  Mine? Other?

The answer to that is yes.


----------



## KevinB (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Good, he reached it in July.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-vaccine-all-eligible-canadians-1.6118908


Having Vaccines =/= % vaccinated 



Altair said:


> But back to the topic at hand,


Political polls are terrible - regardless of who runs them - simply because the language used in the questions are designed to elicit a certain response.   You can alter the wording to get what you want and most of the respondents won't even know what was done.

 It's done on both sides of issues - so don't think I'm just tarring one side with my brush.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

I’d like to see a poll as to “How many Canadians know the four cases under which the Emergencies Act may be used?”

I wouldn’t even give that double digits…


----------



## QV (17 Feb 2022)

This is text book peaceful protest. But EA…

Watch how this is handled:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494428216035102721


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Having Vaccines =/= % vaccinated





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-vaccine-covid-target-september-1.5888178
		




> On Tuesday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said his government was "very confident" that it would meet its end-of-September goal of vaccinating every Canadian who wants to be inoculated.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-vaccines-september-2021-1.5844314
		




> Canada expects to have enough doses on hand next year to vaccinate every Canadian who wants a shot by the end of September, according to the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC).



Well, its a good thing he didn't say everyone would be vaccinated then. 



> Political polls are terrible - regardless of who runs them - simply because the language used in the questions are designed to elicit a certain response.   You can alter the wording to get what you want and most of the respondents won't even know what was done.
> 
> It's done on both sides of issues - so don't think I'm just tarring one side with my brush.


These same pollsters  nailed the last federal election.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This is text book peaceful protest. But EA…
> 
> Watch how this is handled:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494428216035102721


You can just feel the venomous hatred coming off the crowd in waves...


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Polls are terrible predictors.  But they are snapshots in time.  There is a reason parties do them, business do them and even Facebook fun “what super hero are you” games do them.

They actually work if done right.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Glad this is ending.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This is text book peaceful protest. But EA…
> 
> Watch how this is handled:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494428216035102721


I see a protester resisting arrest.  What did you see?


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I see a protester resisting arrest.  What did you see?


You really want the answer to that?


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Glad this is ending.


Who said it is?


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Who said it is?


Fine.  I’m glad police are finally moving in to attempt to end this.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Fine.  I’m glad police are finally moving in to attempt to end this.


Who says they are?

I'm watching live streams and its still very much a party right now.

Lots of cops around said party but a party none the less.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Who says they are?


You aren’t paying attention are you?


----------



## Fabius (17 Feb 2022)

Some of the comments here... I don't know what to say...
Ultimately I don't view this as politics, polls, majority wishes or anything similar. This is about respect of the views of Canadians and their rights  - All Canadians period. Whether someone thinks the views are right wrong or otherwise is immaterial.  That stuff is at the fundamental core of a liberal democratic state. 
Note the operative word in "liberal democratic" is liberal with a small l, not democratic. 
Just because a majority thinks something does not make it right. Just because something will get you more votes does not make it right. 

I am sorry but those that think that are ultimately the largest long term threat to the very survival of any liberal democratic society.
Just because various levels of government have handled themselves poorly for over at least a year does not mean they get to handle themselves even worse in order to try and solve the problems they own a large part in creating.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> You aren’t paying attention are you?







Maybe I'm paying more attention than you are.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Who says they are?
> 
> I'm watching live streams and its still very much a party right now.
> 
> Lots of cops around said party but a party none the less.



Warnings and subsequent warning have been issued. Verbal and written.
Secured perimeter has been established.
Increased enforcement and presence
One of the lead organisers has been arrested


More at eleven. 

Essentially it is slowly escalating until a bigger move is made.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Fabius said:


> Some of the comments here... I don't know what to say...
> Ultimately I don't view this as politics, polls, majority wishes or anything similar. This is about respect of the views of Canadians and their rights  - All Canadians period. Whether someone thinks the views are right wrong or otherwise is immaterial.  That stuff is at the fundamental core of a liberal democratic state.
> Note the operative word in "liberal democratic" is liberal with a small l, not democratic.
> Just because a majority thinks something does not make it right. Just because something will get you more votes does not make it right.
> ...


Public will drives policy as well.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Warnings and subsequent warning have been issued. Verbal and written.
> Secured perimeter has been established.
> Increased enforcement and presence
> One of the lead organisers has been arrested
> ...


Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.


----------



## Fabius (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Public will drives policy as well.



Does that mean that all policy is right as long as a majority supports it or at least don't oppose it?


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

Fabius said:


> Does that mean that all policy is right as long as a majority supports it or at least don't oppose it?


It mean, that in a democracy, one ignores the voter at their peril.

We have seen this before and we will see this again.

Alan Kurdi.

Housing prices.

Afghan withdrawl.

How the public and voters expressed their feelings on those shaped elections. This is no different.

The public wants this to stop. More so on the LPC NDP side of the spectrum, the ones the LPC is particularly sensitive to, as it is their base. But the public at large wants this to stop.

The government is moving on this because of public pressure.

Is it legal/constitutional? The house of commons, the senate and courts will decide if fits the letter of the law.

Is this political gold for the LPC right now? Yes.


----------



## QV (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I see a protester resisting arrest.  What did you see?


Of course you do.  What you miss is the protestors reported this one problem child to the police and the police removed that person. Another person associated to the protest kept the crowd appraised and calm while the police removed the problem.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> How did you come to that conclusion?


The whole point of liberal constitutional democracy is that the rights of the minority are protected against the mob of the majority. Doesn’t mean the minority calls the shots, just that they are not persecuted.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would Hazzard to guess 66% of the people who support use of the EA have no idea what it actually means and the Pandora's box that is being opened.
> 
> As usual Canadians not paying attention and instead following nice socks and empty platitudes...


When liberals won’t enforce the law, they will hire authoritarians that will.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The whole point of liberal constitutional democracy is that the rights of the minority are protected against the mob of the majority. Doesn’t mean the minority calls the shots, just that they are not persecuted.


Are they being persecuted?


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Of course you do.  What you miss is the protestors reported this one problem child to the police and the police removed that person. Another person associated to the protest kept the crowd appraised and calm while the police removed the problem.


I didn’t miss that at all.  I assumed you thought the police were being heavy handed. Sorry I misunderstood.  Yes.  Kudos for the police who handled this and kudos to those around who kept calm.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Are they being persecuted?


If they are targeted for funding illegal activity, no. 

If they are targeted for funding unsavoury views, yes.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Emergencies Act continues:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-protests-frozen-bank-accounts-1.6355396
		




> Freeland said the government feels "great sorrow" about these actions but insisted they were necessary to "defend our democracy" and to "restore peace and order."



When they weren’t bubbling with glee, they tried their best to appear to be proceeding with great sorrow.



> Using powers granted under the Emergencies Act, the country's banks and other financial institutions have been ordered to stop doing business with people who are "*directly or indirectly*" associated with the anti-vaccine mandate protests that have seriously disrupted Ottawa's downtown core.



Directly is perhaps clear enough, but what is an ‘indirect’ association?



> Freeland was repeatedly asked by reporters to state how many accounts have gone dormant since these new financial powers were enacted.
> 
> 
> While holding a list of the accounts affected, Freeland said she couldn't be specific because she did not want to "jeopardize operational actions" related to ongoing police work.
> ...


So she won’t give the numbers out, so then why even bring the paper to wave around in front of reporters?  Nya-nya-nya-nya-nyaaaa-yaaa…. Maybe Freeland was taking lessons from the drama teacher?


----------



## RangerRay (17 Feb 2022)

To me, invoking the EA is like using a sledgehammer to hammer a finishing nail when they were trying to push it in by hand before.


----------



## Altair (17 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> If they are targeted for funding illegal activity, no.
> 
> If they are targeted for funding unsavoury views, yes.


See, we are in agreement. 

I don't get the angst.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> To me, invoking the EA is like using a sledgehammer to hammer a finishing nail when they were trying to push it in by hand before.


There was no reason to. The police just had to do their jobs and the leadership needed to do theirs. 

What may seem like political gold for the LPC right now to some may turn to lead when the Inquiry that is automatically triggered when this is said and done brings more to light.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> There was no reason to. The police just had to do their jobs and the leadership needed to do theirs.


The pavement level police did their job, what their leadership told them to do.  It's not fair to say they didn't....


----------



## Fabius (17 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> It mean, that in a democracy, one ignores the voter at their peril.
> 
> We have seen this before and we will see this again.
> 
> ...


You did not answer my question though. Expressing feelings, public pressure, ignoring voters etc. has nothing to do with my question. 

This is the difference between politicians and statesmen. Politicians don’t lead they react and follow, statesmen lead and will explain what is needed and why and perhaps offer truths that the public needs to hear even if unpopular.  

The EA is completely unnecessary.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> There was no reason to. The police just had to do their jobs and the leadership needed to do theirs.
> 
> What may seem like political gold for the LPC right now to some may turn to lead when the Inquiry that is automatically triggered when this is said and done brings more to light.


Enquiry? Are those still a thing in Ottawa? Pshaw, kid's stuff to these veterans of the Ethics Wars.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> The pavement level police did their job, what their leadership told them to do.  It's not fair to say they didn't....


Yes.  My meaning should have reflected that.


----------



## OceanBonfire (17 Feb 2022)

> Diagolon is an excellent example of how irony poisoning can be used to warp an online joke into a movement.
> 
> Irony poisoning is a term used to describe the process of desensitization to extremist, hateful rhetoric by the use of “humour,” and especially on the internet -- memes -- that assist in sliding a person further into the spheres of fascism, white supremacy and violence.
> 
> ...











						What is the Diagolon extremist group and what does it want?
					

After patches connected to the Diagolon extremist group were seen on gear seized by the RCMP at the Coutts, Alta., border blockade, questions have arisen about who the group members are and what they want.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Enquiry? Are those still a thing in Ottawa? Pshaw, kid's stuff to these veterans of the Ethics Wars.


It’s an automatic thing that is triggered that is built into this act.  The LPC have no choice.  And will have to face a lot of questions.   What they will answer is another thing but it won’t be a good look after this is all said and done.  Of course the opposition could still find a way to bungle that.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> What is the Diagolon extremist group and what does it want?
> 
> 
> After patches connected to the Diagolon extremist group were seen on gear seized by the RCMP at the Coutts, Alta., border blockade, questions have arisen about who the group members are and what they want.
> ...


Slide only to the right? Ain't physics great.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> The pavement level police did their job, what their leadership told them to do.  It's not fair to say they didn't....


The response by the former OPS Chief was less than stellar


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s an automatic thing that is triggered that is built into this act.  The LPC have no choice.  And will have to face a lot of questions.   What they will answer is another thing but it won’t be a good look after this is all said and done.  Of course the opposition could still find a way to bungle that.


The inquiry content is not defined.  Furthermore, it needn’t be tabled before the Houses of Parliament until 360 days after the Expiration, or Revocation of Declaration or Revocation of Continuance (my guess it’ll be an RoC after being extended (X) times.)



> *Inquiry*
> 
> 
> *63* (1) The Governor in Council shall, within sixty days after the expiration or revocation of a declaration of emergency, cause an inquiry to be held into the circumstances that led to the declaration being issued and the measures taken for dealing with the emergency.
> ...


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

CTV news blurb just now. Lisa Laflamme pronouncing that "battle lines are being drawn" and a "tense showdown" is imminent. Very helpful.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> CTV news blurb just now. Lisa Laflamme pronouncing that "battle lines are being drawn" and a "tense showdown" is imminent. Very helpful.


…as opposed to the peaceful demonstration against BC LNG up in Houston, B.C.


----------



## KevinB (17 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …as opposed to the peaceful demonstration against BC LNG up in Houston, B.C.


Also how many Police where injured in the Trucker Blockade?


----------



## RangerRay (17 Feb 2022)

More info on those arrested near Coutts. BZ to the Mounties for getting this done. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-arrests-charges-border-protest-1.6354587


----------



## Colin Parkinson (17 Feb 2022)

Of course you all realize that Russia,China and every despot for the next 10+ years when chastized by the Canadian government for human rights abuse, are going to retort with: "Coming from a country that declared a security emergency and arrested people for setting up bouncy castles on the Parliament grounds"


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2022)

Tamara Lich has apparently been arrested.

And they arrested the guy that threw gravel at the PM last summer.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Of course you all realize that Russia,China and every despot for the next 10+ years when chastized by the Canadian government for human rights abuse, are going to retort with: "Coming from a country that declared a security emergency and arrested people for setting up bouncy castles on the Parliament grounds"


Well our 'security emergency' is called Wednesday in those places....


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Feb 2022)

And then the lawsuits started....


Canadian Civil Liberties Association to sue federal government over Emergencies Act​CCLA says government's decision to invoke act infringes on Canadians' Charter rights​
The Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) announced Thursday that it plans to sue the federal government over its decision to invoke the Emergencies Act in response to ongoing protests and blockades.

"Emergency powers cannot and must not be normalized," said CCLA executive director Noa Mendelsohn.

She said use of the act "seriously infringes on the Charter rights of Canadians."

The Emergencies Act was invoked by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Monday in response to ongoing demonstrations against COVID-19 restrictions and vaccine mandates.

The federal government has argued that the demonstrations constitute a threat to Canada's economy and the safety of citizens. It's the first time the act has been triggered since it was approved by Parliament in 1988.

Mendelsohn acknowledged reports of "violent, racist and homophobic acts" occurring within the Ottawa protest but said the presence of those elements doesn't justify the introduction of measures the CCLA considers a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The act gives the federal government temporary powers to quell protests by, among other things, banning travel to protest zones and prohibiting people from bringing minors to unlawful assemblies. The act also allows the federal government to restrict protesters' access to bank accounts.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ccla-lawsuit-emergencies-act-1.6355846


----------



## Quirky (17 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Emergency powers cannot and must not be normalized," said CCLA executive director Noa Mendelsohn.


It’s all good, the LPC consulted CBC.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> It’s all good, the LPC consulted CBC.


and Gerald Butts


----------



## Haggis (18 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And then the lawsuits started....
> 
> 
> Canadian Civil Liberties Association to sue federal government over Emergencies Act​CCLA says government's decision to invoke act infringes on Canadians' Charter rights​


Can't sue if your bank accounts are frozen for "opposing views".. 

Too soon?


----------



## KevinB (18 Feb 2022)

The Law of Unintended Consequences…


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

It's almost like Trudeau was disappointed the convoy protestors were largely non-violent so he pushed the emergency act and freezing bank accounts to incite the protestors even more. Like he wants violence.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> It's almost like Trudeau was disappointed the convoy protestors were largely non-violent so he pushed the emergency act and freezing bank accounts to incite the protestors even more. Like he wants violence.


I don’t like the guy and I am sure he sees political opportunity in this.  But I don’t actually believe he wants violence. 

He could have called in the CAF if he really wanted to go full retard.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I don’t like the guy and I am sure he sees political opportunity in this.  But I don’t actually believe he wants violence.
> 
> He could have called in the CAF if he really wanted to go full retard.


Doug Ford could literally have called on the CDS to provide CAF assistance per the NDA but chose not to and resolved other actions quite peacefully.  No reason why Trudeau couldn’t have shown some real leadership.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Doug Ford could literally have called on the CDS to provide CAF assistance per the NDA but chose not to and resolved other actions quite peacefully.  No reason why Trudeau couldn’t have shown some real leadership.


I wasn’t arguing that. And Doug ford supported the EA.


----------



## Haggis (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I wasn’t arguing that. And Doug ford supported the EA.


He has to appeal to Ontario's left and be seen to be a moderate.  There's an election coming up.


----------



## dimsum (18 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Slide only to the right? Ain't physics great.


Here is a more detailed explanation of irony poisoning:









						Irony Poisoning
					

How a generation has lost the ability for sincerity, and how to clamber back out.




					medium.com


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> He has to appeal to Ontario's left and be seen to be a moderate.  There's an election coming up.


Meh.  I don’t think this is about him appeasing the left.  He is not getting that vote no matter what.  But he is definitely trying to appease the moderates.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I don’t like the guy and I am sure he sees political opportunity in this.  But I don’t actually believe he wants violence.



 I'm not making a jab at the PM. I don't think he wants individuals hurt specifically, but why wouldn't he want violence to break out bigger picture?

He's already worked overtime to vilify and dehumanize people who hold the wrong opinions.

He's no stranger to using violence to leverage political opportunity like the 22 murders in Nova Scotia.

He's already situated the estimate with the racist misogynist nazi truckers from the west. We heard about the  US January 6th concerns- and we got a few trash flags, bouncy castles, isolated incidents of people being assholes, a street festival ambiance in a lot of places, and blaring horns.

Violence would justify the narrative he and his party has been pushing. Members of his own party are beginning to break ranks and talk about him dividing the country. Can you look at the language he's used and his actions and say he's not trying to divide Canadians along political lines rather than bring us together?

He called a $640M snap election no one else wanted in the middle of the pandemic because he thought he was polling well. 

There's opportunity in violence and he's opportunistic. Violence, which many Canadians would abhor, is the path to a majority government for him.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm not making a jab at the PM. I don't think he wants individuals hurt specifically, but why wouldn't he want violence to break out bigger picture?
> 
> He's already worked overtime to vilify and dehumanize people who hold the wrong opinions.
> 
> ...


Oh, I’m sure he will capitalise on any violent action.  I just don’t think he really wants violence. 

 If parents start getting separated from their children and protesters lose their pets when police arrest them I guarantee you the CPC will also capitalise on that imagery.  But I don’t for a second think the conservatives actually want to see that happen. 

Political opportunism. They will take it where they can get it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

Just another level of nuance, here.

At least one media source, written by former MSM reporters who've been quoted a bit on these threads, show a bit of a pattern at both the Ottawa and Coutts protest areas.  It appears there were concurrent activities going on:

A more relaxed bouncy-castle-free-BBQ kinda grouping, and
A smaller, more tense, circumspect tightly-controlled locus at least a bit away from the more relaxed/festive protest node.
Both can exist at the same time - hence both sides being able to show their preferred tile in the mosaic that is this protest movement (a lot of the disagreement is over what proportion of mosaic the extremist elements make up - PM's statements can be seen to paint most/all the group, while others say you can't judge a whole mosaic by some of the tiles).  In the case of Coutts, there's more than one media report out there saying there was a dismantling of the site(s) because many didn't know about the ... intensity of some of the few.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Doug Ford could literally have called on the CDS to provide CAF assistance per the NDA but chose not to and resolved other actions quite peacefully.  No reason why Trudeau couldn’t have shown some real leadership.


Or Ottawa police ....


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Just another level of nuance, here.
> 
> At least one media source, written by former MSM reporters who've been quoted a bit on these threads, show a bit of a pattern at both the Ottawa and Coutts protest areas.  It appears there were concurrent activities going on:
> 
> ...


The bouncy castle is a tactic.  The hard core more sinister side of this is using that as a method to impede police action.  They know what it will look like when police show up and have to take action.   The people being used and believing their propaganda unfortunately don’t know any better.   They are far more organised than some would believe and they have been very underestimated.  I see a whole new area of study in regards to what’s happened here.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

Moved some recent posts from the non-Muslim extremism thread here since they're associated with the protests.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The bouncy castle is a tactic.  The hard core more sinister side of this is using that as a method to impede police action.  They know what it will look like when police show up and have to take action.   The people being used and believing their propaganda unfortunately don’t know any better.   They are far more organised than some would believe and they have been very underestimated.  I see a whole new area of study in regards to what’s happened here.


That's true, but it also opens the door to a shit-ton of people who are there for one reason maybe not knowing exactly how ... passionate some of the people "running the show" are.  Even some of the organizers of some of the Coutts protest seemed to be surprised by what some of the core were about, so I'm prepared to believe that the worst elements should be pitchforked out while a load of the other participants may not know how bad the worst elements are - especially given the level of distrust of MSM and government among some/many.


----------



## Haggis (18 Feb 2022)

The PM of the day didn't enact the EA in 1990 despite the deployment of several thousand troops in an ALEA role across two provinces to deal with violence, including three killings, at Kahnesatake and Akwesasne plus barricading and damage to critical infrastructure (Mercier Bridge).

Nor did the PM of the day enact the EA in 2008 in response to the month-long closing of a major border crossing in Cornwall to protest the arming of CBSA officers at that port of entry which was - at that time - located on indigenous lands.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The PM of the day didn't enact the EA in 1990 despite the deployment of several thousand troops in an ALEA role across two provinces to deal with violence, including three killings, at Kahnesatake and Akwesasne plus barricading and damage to critical infrastructure (Mercier Bridge).
> 
> Nor did the PM of the day enact the EA in 2008 in response to the month-long closing of a major border crossing in Cornwall to protest the arming of CBSA officers at that port of entry which was - at that time - located on indigenous lands.


I think that we can all agree that the EA is not required and has not met any threshold to be used. 

And to make matters worse, the PM has cancelled debate on the issue today.


----------



## FSTO (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I think that we can all agree that the EA is not required and has not met any threshold to be used.
> 
> And to make matters worse, the PM has cancelled debate on the issue today.


Maybe the debate was cancelled due to the operation today on Wellington. I never like to give the current PMO any kudos but maybe this was done on advice from the Ops Centre?


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Maybe the debate was cancelled due to the operation today on Wellington. I never like to give the current PMO any kudos but maybe this was done on advice from the Ops Centre?


I think that is the excuse.  Parliament has been able to function virtual and in person throughout the pandemic.  No one has impeded MPs from getting in.   So it’s a weak excuse to stifle debate when they can in fact keep operating.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I think that we can all agree that the EA is not required and has not met any threshold to be used.
> 
> And to make matters worse, the PM has cancelled debate on the issue today.


So as not to have Government break the Emergencies Act law itself, it must still formally give consideration to the Declaration and put the motion on Monday (7 days after declaration, which was the 14th), otherwise it contravenes Sect.58 of the Act.  



> Consideration of Declaration of Emergency​*Tabling in Parliament when sitting*​
> *58* (1) Subject to subsection (4), a motion for confirmation of a declaration of emergency, signed by a minister of the Crown, together with an explanation of the reasons for issuing the declaration and a report on any consultation with the lieutenant governors in council of the provinces with respect to the declaration, shall be laid before each House of Parliament within seven sitting days after the declaration is issued.
> *Summoning Parliament or House *​
> (2) If a declaration of emergency is issued during a prorogation of Parliament or when either House of Parliament stands adjourned, Parliament or that House, as the case may be, shall be summoned forthwith to sit within seven days after the declaration is issued.
> ...


----------



## KevinB (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So as not to have Government break the Emergencies Act law itself, it must still formally give consideration to the Declaration and put the motion on Monday (7 days after declaration, which was the 14th), otherwise it contravenes Sect.58 of the Act.


I'm sure he's trying to find a way to call another snap election and dismiss Parliament today...


----------



## kev994 (18 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> He has to appeal to Ontario's left and be seen to be a moderate.  There's an election coming up.


75 cent beer oughta lock that up.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> 75 cent beer oughta lock that up.


Getting rid of license plate stickers is probably going to lock it up.  Not going to lie, I’m not unhappy about that lol.


----------



## Haggis (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So as not to have Government break the Emergencies Act law itself, it must still formally give consideration to the Declaration and put the motion on Monday (7 days after declaration, which was the 14th), otherwise it contravenes Sect.58 of the Act.


Or, maybe he's trying to run out the clock so the motion dies.


----------



## Altair (18 Feb 2022)

Peaceful protests in the morning, beautiful


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Or, maybe he's trying to run out the clock so the motion dies.


I’m pretty sure that if the motion dies, any actions they took under the act would open them up to a whole pile of more legal issues.  But not sure.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Peaceful protests in the morning, beautiful


Trucks being towed now.  Most protesters surrendering when police arrest them.  This will be a few days to get it all that.  Plus I’m sure the big snow fall isn’t helping.  Some trucks tried to leave but were stuck.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494693066439114759
Patrick King has a “plan”.  Also Tow trucks beware.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile a "mostly peacefully demonstration" in Northern BC





__





						CityNews
					






					vancouver.citynews.ca


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Meanwhile a "mostly peacefully demonstration" in Northern BC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if the bank accounts of those "directly or indirectly" connected to this mostly peaceful demonstration will also be targeted... or nah


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Feb 2022)

And now the Freedumb convoy enters Phase 2: '.... and find out'.

They really should have just declared victory last week and gone home when the announcements about the mandates being eased started to come out (from the provinces)

Now the people who were complaining that they had to quarantine if they came back from a country that wouldn't let them in anyway might potentially lose their license and trucks all together in time for things to start to get back to 'normal'. They might not be able to cross any other national border for a long time anyway but at least they won't have to face the oppressive tyranny of a cloth face mask, which is obviously a huge problem when you are a big tuff manly man.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Getting rid of license plate stickers is probably going to lock it up.  Not going to lie, I’m not unhappy about that lol.


I’d just like a license plate that doesn’t shed like a snake…


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I’d just like a license plate that doesn’t shed like a snake…


Or get a ticket for it shedding.


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> And now the *Freedumb* convoy enters Phase 2: '.... and find out'.
> 
> They really should have just declared victory last week and gone home when the announcements about the mandates being eased started to come out (from the provinces)
> 
> Now the people who were complaining that they had to quarantine if they came back from a country that wouldn't let them in anyway might potentially lose their license and trucks all together in time for things to start to get back to 'normal'. They might not be able to cross any other national border for a long time anyway but at least they won't have to face the oppressive tyranny of a cloth face mask, which is obviously a huge problem when you are a big tuff manly man.



When people use the term "freedumb" it really degrades their argument. You can disagree with the protest, but one should never trivialize freedom.


----------



## kev994 (18 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Or, maybe he's trying to run out the clock so the motion dies.


I thought the obligation was to ‘start’ debating within 7 days. Is there a timeframe on when the debate needs to be completed?


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> I thought the obligation was to ‘start’ debating within 7 days. Is there a timeframe on when the debate needs to be completed?


I think the motion has to be tabled and passed in 7 days.  The 7 days allows for debate on the motion.   Again, I might be wrong.


----------



## kev994 (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I’d just like a license plate that doesn’t shed like a snake…


Do you have a cover on it? Anecdotally the ones in the neighborhood with covers encasing them are all crumbling, though there’s a handful doing the same without.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> When people use the term "freedumb" it really degrades their argument ...


Sort of like "face diapers" degrades the "who needs masks?" discussion?  #RhetoricCutsBothWays


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Or, maybe he's trying to run out the clock so the motion dies.


s.58(1) let’s him play semantics as it is seven sitting days within which he must put the motion to the House of Commons and the Senate. 

s.58(2) requires a summons of the Houses within  seven days (unspecified), however, if not sitting, which is actually more restrictive and requires Monday 21st as the day that the motion to both Houses must be put. 

The only ‘legal’ way he can wiggle is to prorogue or dissolve Govermnent, which then would require Parliament to be summoned “at the earliest opportunity after the declaration is issued.”

Then the discussion becomes ‘when is the earliest opportunity?’


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> Do you have a cover on it? Anecdotally the ones in the neighborhood with covers encasing them are all crumbling, though there’s a handful doing the same without.


Pretty sure you aren’t technically supposed to cover your plates with anything.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Or get a ticket for it shedding.


O/T

I’ve actually had both OPS and OPP tell me that so long as they can see a valid sticker, they’re okay with the white and blue salad on my bumper.



kev994 said:


> Do you have a cover on it? Anecdotally the ones in the neighborhood with covers encasing them are all crumbling, though there’s a handful doing the same without.



_Edit_ : Nope.  Never done that.  My front isn’t as bad as the back for some reason. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Sort of like "face diapers" degrades the "who needs masks?" discussion?  #RhetoricCutsBothWays


Orders of magnitude different.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Orders of magnitude different.


Depends on who is considered to be trivializing freedom.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Orders of magnitude different.


I don't know - I've been told "it's just words - grow a thicker skin" by people who happen to disagree with the use of different words than I do, so I see it as all in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> O/T
> 
> I’ve actually had both OPS and OPP tell me that so long as they can see a valid sticker, they’re okay with the white and blue salad on my bumper.
> 
> ...


Same with my last set of plates.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Police are about to arrest protesters that are holding a hasty snow defense.  Only in Canada…

I wonder if that is Pat King’s plan.


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Tamara Lich has apparently been arrested.
> 
> And they arrested the guy that threw gravel at the PM last summer.




This is what the Daily Mail was reporting on its website - viewed internationally and popular in the UK and the US.

Did I miss this on this site, or the Canadian News?




> ... Freedom Convoy leader Tamara Lich tearfully said she expected to be hauled off to jail Thursday - as the truckers await the looming police crackdown.
> 
> Lich, a former fitness instructor from Saskatchewan, cried openly in an emotional video Wednesday evening in which she accepted her fate and thanked fellow activists for their support.
> 
> ...



I don't know Ms Lich.  Never heard of her until recently.  But I have to say, I like her style.

This is more likely to sway an argument than a fiery conclusion.









						Freedom Convoy leader says she expects to be hauled off to jail today
					

Ottawa Police chief Steve Bell warned Thursday the end to the protests that have clogged city streets is 'imminent,'




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Police are about to arrest protesters that are holding a hasty snow defense.  Only in Canada…
> 
> I wonder if that is Pat King’s plan.


I wonder if they've had the time to drop trees, set up nail boards and wire, and prepare burning stick yet? If you're going to have a go at the cops, learn from the pros.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> This is what the Daily Mail was reporting on its website - viewed internationally and popular in the UK and the US.
> 
> Did I miss this on this site, or the Canadian News?
> 
> ...


It was widely watched.  I saw it.  Comments about how she was all smiles and taking selfies the next day in contrast to her Jesus moment.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Did I miss this on this site, or the Canadian News?


At least one MSM reporter ran bits of the video in question ....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494153140588924929Also remember that the organizers shut out MSM during their news conferences, so don't be surprised at not much coverage from "legacy" media.

This on Lich, from the Ottawa PS ...


> The Ottawa Police Service has arrested and charged Tamara LICH, 49 years old, of Medicine Hat, Alberta.
> 
> LICH has been charged with:
> 
> ...


... and Barber:


> The Ottawa Police Service arrested Christopher John BARBER, 46 years old, of Swift Current, Saskatchewan.
> 
> BARBER has been charged by the Criminal Investigations Section with:
> 
> ...


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> This is what the Daily Mail was reporting on its website - viewed internationally and popular in the UK and the US.
> 
> Did I miss this on this site, or the Canadian News?
> 
> ...



I wonder, where did it originate she was a racist, bigot with ties to extreme right wing groups? (or words to that). There are people on this site that believe the protest leadership are racists  (Mod edit for QV).


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I wonder if they've had the time to drop trees, set up nail boards and wire, and prepare burning stick yet? If you're going to have a go at the cops, learn from the pros.


A few lawyers chimed in about that.  These guys are actually doing things that they think may get them off.  Hugging and snow forts so they can use a peaceful assembly argument.  Lots of cases to come.  I suspect a lot of people that surrendered peacefully will be released without charge.


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Feb 2022)

I reckon Gandhi was all about tactics as well.


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

....Still waiting for the devastating Covid outbreak in Ottawa due to all these unmasked people congregating...


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> ....Still waiting for the devastating Covid outbreak in Ottawa due to all these unmasked people congregating...


Low risk.

Besides, Ottawa has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country.  They’ll be fine.


----------



## Quirky (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Low risk.
> 
> Besides, Ottawa has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country.  They’ll be fine.


Canada has the highest vaccination rates in the world. Time to drop all federal mandates now. We'll be fine.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Canada has the highest vaccination rates in the world. Time to drop all federal mandates now. We'll be fine.


We were on our way to that.  But one side wanted to dissolve the government as well.  They should have quit while they were ahead.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> We were on our way to that.


Trusting that the Federal Government had a plan…but, you know, didn’t want Parliament or the citizens to have any idea of timings or extent of each de-phasing, etc.., because…….Transparency


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Trusting that the Federal Government had a plan…but, you know, didn’t want Parliament or the citizens to have any idea of timings or extent of each de-phasing, etc.., because…….Transparency


True. But most of the daily life issues were all provincial,  and the timelines were pretty clear.

Like I said.  Should have quit while they were ahead.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Pat King arrested apparently.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> True. But most of the daily life issues were all provincial,  and the timelines were pretty clear.
> 
> Like I said.  Should have quit while they were ahead.


Which makes one wonder “why not just blurb out a time frame that is loosey-goosey enough to fit with the provincial plans and show inclusiveness and ‘stewardship’ and all those great buzzwords, as opposed to voting down the motion…


----------



## lenaitch (18 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Maybe the debate was cancelled due to the operation today on Wellington. I never like to give the current PMO any kudos but maybe this was done on advice from the Ops Centre?


If I recall, there are House procedural rules that have to happen to go virtual, and I still think there has to be a minimum quorum sitting in person.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Which makes one wonder “why not just blurb out a time frame that is loosey-goosey enough to fit with the provincial plans and show inclusiveness and ‘stewardship’ and all those great buzzwords, as opposed to voting down the motion…


The LPC was never going to agree to let the CPC tell them what to do.  That motion was just as much theatrics on the CPC side.


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> We were on our way to that.*  But one side wanted to dissolve the government as well*.  They should have quit while they were ahead.


Not true.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Not true.


Not not true.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The LPC was never going to agree to let the CPC tell them what to do.  That motion was just as much theatrics on the CPC side.


Surely one wouldn’t wish to deny theatrics from all but the ruling party, no?


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

This has to be the most peaceful dismantling of a protest ever. Some of the protesters are standing their ground, not acting violent but not cooperating. I haven't see the police crack skulls yet, just removing people here and there.

I do hear the government of the day referring to this as a "siege" on CPAC... I believe "insurrection" has been tossed around by some key Trudeau folks also.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Surely one wouldn’t wish to deny theatrics from all but the ruling party, no?


I expect theatrics from both sides.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This has to be the most peaceful dismantling of a protest ever. Some of the protesters are standing their ground, not acting violent but not cooperating. I haven't see the police crack skulls yet, just removing people here and there.
> 
> I do hear the government of the day referring to this as a "siege" on CPAC... I believe "insurrection" has been tossed around by some key Trudeau folks also.


Glad it’s going down that way.


----------



## lenaitch (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> This has to be the most peaceful dismantling of a protest ever. Some of the protesters are standing their ground, not acting violent but not cooperating. I haven't see the police crack skulls yet, just removing people here and there.
> 
> I do hear the government of the day referring to this as a "siege" on CPAC... I believe "insurrection" has been tossed around by some key Trudeau folks also.


Lessons learned.  Besides, there are kids in the mix.  No doubt some would be happy to see a mellee but the slow steady push works better and gives protesters a chance to leave (and it seems many are).  I notice that both here and Windsor that the Public Order folks are not in 'hard tac' (helmets, batons, shields, etc.).  No doubt at hand nearby, in case.


----------



## QV (18 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Lessons learned.  Besides, there are kids in the mix.  No doubt some would be happy to see a mellee but the slow steady push works better and gives protesters leave (and it seems many are).  I notice that both here and Windsor that the Public Order folks are not in 'hard tac' (helmets, batons, shields, etc.).  No doubt at hand nearby, in case.


Lessons learned and I would suggest an unwillingness to be violent with police for most of the protestors (remember these are mostly blue collar people who generally support the police, not professional protestors or lowlifes). The police know this and is probably why they are not in hard tac.


----------



## lenaitch (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Lessons learned and I would suggest an unwillingness to be violent with police for most of the protestors (remember these are mostly blue collar people who generally support the police, not professional protestors or lowlifes). The police know this and is probably why they are not in hard tac.


Agree.  No doubt there are a few 'pros' in there.  I have heard that some of the residents and business owners in the area are unhappy that protesters are being allowed to leave.  I understand the sentiment that they want everybody held accountable for their loss and disruption, over the past three weeks, but simple logistics alone would prevent that.

If you are an police incident commander, which would you rather have; a running street battle with hundreds of people over several blocks, or a slow push, allowing the 'softer' protesters to peel off?  The closer they get to the core at Wellington, they will deal with the more entrenched, but fewer (and more compact) numbers.  The goal is to make this go away.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

"Counselling to commit the offence of mischief;
Counselling to commit the offence of disobey court order (s. 127);
Counselling to commit the offence of obstruct police."

Doesn't really have the same ring as "insurrection, treason, riot, rebellion" that one might expect for justifying an emergency.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

> referring to this as a "siege" on CPAC



Yes.  As soon as the saps get within a couple of hundred yards of Parliament Hill, they're going to bring up the siege mortars and pound the buildings into dust.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2022)

You know you should reconsider when even former Iranian bosses say you've gone too far   

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494368391746015236And this guy KNOWS about coercion, liberty & freedom of choice, folks ....


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Jailed Ottawa protestors offer to co-run prison with warden
					

OTTAWA, ON - Several arrested protestors from the downtown occupation have offered to co-run the prison where they are being held.




					thebeaverton.com


----------



## lenaitch (18 Feb 2022)

I was going to reply 'WTF' but then I saw it was The Beaverton.  Love those guys.


----------



## dimsum (18 Feb 2022)

Person who does not live in Ottawa sympathizes with protesters
					

UXBRIDGE, ON - A non-Ottawa resident is calling on police to stop the removal of Freedom Convoy protesters currently occupying downtown Ottawa.




					thebeaverton.com


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Person who does not live in Ottawa sympathizes with protesters
> 
> 
> UXBRIDGE, ON - A non-Ottawa resident is calling on police to stop the removal of Freedom Convoy protesters currently occupying downtown Ottawa.
> ...


Bang on. Everyone who doesn't live in Ottawa should not give the remotest resemblance of a shit about it.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Bang on. Everyone who doesn't live in Ottawa should not give the remotest resemblance of a shit about it.


So me and G2G can keep sparring?


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Feb 2022)

Ottawa;  The National Debating Centre.

The privilege is yours.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494757681218867209
Another organiser/advisor arrested.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> We were on our way to that.  But one side wanted to dissolve the government as well.


Seems like someone else wants to get rid of the annoying parliament as well.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Seems like someone else wants to get rid of the annoying parliament as well.


Nah.  They never wanted parliament to go away.  The manifesto called for the GG to make them the government.  Trudeau can just turn it off at will.  He might still need it at some point.


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> When people use the term "freedumb" it really degrades their argument. You can disagree with the protest, but one should never trivialize freedom.


The actions of the Freedumb Convoy degrade their own argument (if you can even piece out what is, in fact, their point). It's intentionally capitalized to denote a proper name (like 'Dumbass Steve' would clearly refer to a specific individual named Steve, who is, by implication, a dumbass).

When a large number of them are advocating overthrowing the democratically elected government, they lost the right to use the term, and they've been ignorantly trampling over other people's freedoms for weeks. If you need a court injunction to tell you to stop honking your horn like an asshole, bit rich to try and simultaneously claim the morale high ground.

I even agree with a lot of the individual points about the mandates, constantly moving goalposts etc, but their behaviour is counterproductive and they lost the bubble in the first few days in town and went down hill from there.

TLR; F*ck these clowns, go home.


----------



## dimsum (18 Feb 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> TLR; F*ck these clowns, go home.


This person is a local hero.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494106335280910342


----------



## dimsum (18 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Bang on. Everyone who doesn't live in Ottawa should not give the remotest resemblance of a shit about it.


God I wish.  If that was the case, this convoy wouldn't even have happened.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> This person is a local hero.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494106335280910342


Balcony Guy,  he’s getting international attention.


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> This person is a local hero.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494106335280910342


Oh man, that was awesome, and a houndstooth shirt and pompadour away from a classic Ricky from TPB clip.


----------



## dimsum (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Balcony Guy,  he’s getting international attention.


Pot Man is pretty good too but not as funny.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Balcony Guy,  he’s getting international attention.


Now that's what you call getting two birds stoned at once!


----------



## Haggis (18 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> This person is a local hero.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494106335280910342


Better GG material than Julie Payette.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494801392782950405
A few isolated cases.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494801392782950405
> A few isolated cases.


The ol' bring the cadpat small pack to the protest trick.

#lamfarmybag


----------



## Blackadder1916 (18 Feb 2022)

Don't get in the way of the cavalry

Oops, sorry, wrong video.  Should be this one.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Don't get in the way of the cavalry
> 
> Oops, sorry, wrong video.  Should be this one.


One guy tried to injure the horses by throwing a bike to trip them up. He’s been charged with attempting to injure a police service animal.  I imagine that is a serious charge.  Apparently the horses were brought in to respond to attempts to disarm police officers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> One guy tried to injure the horses by throwing a bike to trip them up. He’s been charged with attempting to injure a police service animal.  I imagine that is a serious charge.  Apparently the horses were brought in to respond to attempts to disarm police officers.


Some friends have sent videos of horses trampling the shit out of people. Some other videos too of what I can only describe as police boot fu**ing people.


----------



## mariomike (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> One guy tried to injure the horses by throwing a bike to trip them up.



Don't f$ck with Toronto police horses.

Edit. Definitely the wrong city to f#ck with a police horse.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Some friends have sent videos of horses trampling the shit out of people. Some other videos too of what I can only describe as police boot fu**ing people.


If they were told this could be the result of them not moving on then too freakin' bad I say........that whole "play stupid games" thing.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Don't f$ck with Toronto police horses.


Wrong city.


----------



## dapaterson (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494801392782950405
> A few isolated cases.


Poster children for FAFO.


----------



## dapaterson (18 Feb 2022)

Those who chose to remain and confront police, and then had some of that group try to grab weapons of some sort from police, apparently forgot one of Larry Niven's maxims:

Never throw shit at an armed man. Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> One guy tried to injure the horses by throwing a bike to trip them up. He’s been charged with attempting to injure a police service animal.  I imagine that is a serious charge.  Apparently the horses were brought in to respond to attempts to disarm police officers.


From one twitter feed it appears the "bicycle" is a walker used by an old lady knocked down by the horses, excellent optics that.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494850496196407296


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> From one twitter feed it appears the "bicycle" is a walker used by an old lady knocked down by the horses, excellent optics that.....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494850496196407296


And then the line moved over her, and people wonder why the crowd surged. Looking good Justin.


----------



## dapaterson (18 Feb 2022)

How does a policing action under the command and control of the municipal police become a federal government responsibility?


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> How does a policing action under the command and control of the municipal police become a federal government responsibility?


Are you new around here? Of course it's going to land at his feet.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

> Never throw shit at an armed man. Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man.



Armed men are allowed to respond to non-lethal force with lethal force?


----------



## dapaterson (18 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Armed men are allowed to respond to non-lethal force with lethal force?


In the current instance, what lethal force?

Illegal trespassers ordered to disperse, with at least one flank completely open and available for departure, chose instead to attack police.

The technical term for that is "fucking stupid".


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> How does a policing action under the command and control of the municipal police become a federal government responsibility?


It must be, though, right? 

I mean, the City of Ottawa can’t declare a Public Order Emergency per the Emergencies Act, right? 🤔

Edit to add:  I’m not saying the “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” maxim doesn’t apply here, but to imply that we’re back to a ‘this is just a municipal matter’ stance is being quite selective…


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Armed men are allowed to respond to non-lethal force with lethal force?


Stupid question of the day award.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

> Stupid question of the day award.



I'm not the one who dredged up the stupid.  I expect police to not visit the sins of the violent upon the non-violent.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Wrong city.


I think the horse troop was from the GTA.  Ottawa doesn’t have one anymore as far as I know.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

Liberals cite CBC 'analysis' to justify freezing bank accounts​


> The incredible powers that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has given his government to* freeze people’s bank accounts is based on their reliance on “analysis” from the CBC*
> 
> *This is according to a 14-page document the government tabled in the House of Commons *Wednesday night detailing the supposed rationale for invoking the Emergencies Act in the first place.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I think the horse troop was from the GTA.  Ottawa doesn’t have one anymore as far as I know.


The lack of handguns and gang colours on the horses threw me off.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

It just gets better and better.  All this because some people were really, really annoying.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It just gets better and better.  All this because some people were really, really annoying.


Unlawfully annoying.  But yes.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

Supporters of Gitxsan rail blockade question cancellation of GoFundMe campaign.

The cycle time between expedient-overreach-for-short-term-political-gain and unwanted-consequences is shortening.


----------



## mariomike (18 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I think the horse troop was from the GTA.  Ottawa doesn’t have one anymore as far as I know.


Then it really is a big mistake to f#ck withToronto police horses, if in fact that's where they came from.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494847518844276741


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It just gets better and better.  All this because some people were really, really annoying.


Usually you're  on the ball but the stupidness of this whole thing is effecting you.  Maybe next week you can defend pedophilia.

The courts have spoken, those who are still there are criminals....deal with it.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Feb 2022)

"Maybe next week you can defend pedophilia."

Speaking of being affected, that's quite the suggestion.

What's "better and better" is the suggestion that the GoC relied on the CBC.  I suppose someone is lined up to defend that?

Since the "economic blockades" were obviously in hand (not that Ottawa is a hub of the auto industry) beforehand, more and more of the EA-supportive arguments I read have to retreat to "Well, the protestors in Ottawa were really annoying".  Thin, and getting thinner.

[Add: But, in the interests of soothing curiosity: if pedophilia is an innate "orientation" then it is defensible - blameless, innocent - like being straight or gay or otherwise, or having a particular skin colour.  The part that is indefensible is acting on impulses in any way that harms children.]


----------



## Spencer100 (18 Feb 2022)

Reports are the grandma with the walker trampled by the horses has died.


----------



## Remius (18 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Reports are the grandma with the walker trampled by the horses has died.


Sources?  I saw some trolls on YouTube and Twitter say that but haven’t seen anything else.  Where did you see that?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Reports are the grandma with the walker trampled by the horses has died.


Are you sure she's a Grandma? " Reports " say she may just be a Mother....


----------



## Spencer100 (18 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Are you sure she's a Grandma? " Reports " say she may just be a Mother....


Oh than all good!


----------



## MilEME09 (18 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Then it really is a big mistake to f#ck withToronto police horses, if in fact that's where they came from.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494847518844276741


Trying the fan the flames protestors are trying to claim a police horse ran over a old woman in a walker, of course there is no evidence to support this claim. Just idiots trying to get people mad at police.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Feb 2022)

In all sincerity I’m somewhat dismayed it’s come to this. It’s too close for comfort. Complacency partially caused this along with a deep dissatisfaction with governments of all stripes.


----------



## FSTO (19 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Then it really is a big mistake to f#ck withToronto police horses, if in fact that's where they came from.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494847518844276741


Looks like Clydesdales and Percherons. Heavy horses for heavy work. Steady and fairly docile compared to a flighty light horse.


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Trying the fan the flames protestors are trying to claim a police horse ran over a old woman in a walker, of course there is no evidence to support this claim. Just idiots trying to get people mad at police.


How about now?


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

Joe Warmington has written about it.









						WARMINGTON: Police horses trample demonstrators at Freedom Convoy protest in Ottawa
					

Turns out the lasting image of the Freedom Convoy protest will not be bouncy castle but that of a police horse trampling a disabled woman.




					torontosun.com


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (19 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Joe Warmington has written about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494744784795484161
Woman beaten by a Rifle Butt.


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494744784795484161
> Woman beaten by a Rifle Butt.


Funny things happen when you resist and attack police.


----------



## armrdsoul77 (19 Feb 2022)

Twitter said the woman is OK. She's soaking her sore shoulder in the freedom convoy hot tub.

Edit to add: she'll be back in the bouncy castle in no time.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Feb 2022)

Generally up till this the police have been doing a stellar job. Even entering the motor home all went so peacefully, the media got bored and moved on, as the arrest of the individual inside was peacefully by everything you could see. the optics of the two incidents is not good, you don't see any 'attack" on the officers, you only see an old lady trampled by police horses and video of a officer butt stroking somebody.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Generally up till this the police have been doing a stellar job. Even entering the motor home all went so peacefully, the media got bored and moved on, as the arrest of the individual inside was peacefully by everything you could see. the optics of the two incidents is not good, you don't see any 'attack" on the officers, you only see an old lady trampled by police horses and video of a officer butt stroking somebody.



Nice work by the police, seriously.

I once shut down a village for hours so a woman would submit to her baby's carriage being searched by a female soldier, as per the legislation in force at the time. 

It turned out kind of the opposite, but was very successful and satisfying nonetheless


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Generally up till this the police have been doing a stellar job. Even entering the motor home all went so peacefully, the media got bored and moved on, as the arrest of the individual inside was peacefully by everything you could see. the optics of the two incidents is not good, you don't see any 'attack" on the officers, you only see an old lady trampled by police horses and video of a officer *butt stroking* somebody.


And we don't get to see where (on the body) or why.  Perhaps the protester had their hand on an officer's sidearm.  Good a guess as anybody's.

"Beaten" by a rifle is a bit of a stretch with the image we see.

No right thinking person wants to see anybody injured, but the public and on-site occupiers have been told for days that their presence in that place is illegal and subject to arrest.  I'm not sure how someone putting themselves in harm's way becomes someone else's fault.

People can argue the need for the EA vs the constellation of federal, provincial and municipal offences already available, but someone's right to peaceful assembly and expression ends at:

setting up barricades and occupying public space
someone else's ability to freely and safely access the same public space
someone else's ability carry on a business
someone else's ability to have the lawful enjoyment of property


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

At the end of the day we have unfortunately established a precedent of weak enforcement because of people's feelings, and the preceieved wrongs of arresting protestors even if they are doing wrong things. While we can debate what lead to this, in my opinion we finally have established a red line when it comes to illigal protesting. I hope this then leads to an era of less wishy washy enforcement of hoping protestors go home on their own.


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2022)

Never mind.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> At the end of the day we have unfortunately established a precedent of weak enforcement because of people's feelings, and the preceieved wrongs of arresting protestors even if they are doing wrong things. While we can debate what lead to this, in my opinion we finally have established a red line when it comes to illigal protesting. I hope this then leads to an era of less wishy washy enforcement of hoping protestors go home on their own.


The police and politicians are well aware that the Canadian public is not (yet) onside with what we see in other countries; bamboo switches, widespread use of gas, water cannons, etc.   Heck, people are losing their stuff seeing batons and helmets this morning.

Police leadership really shouldn't car, so long as they employ acceptable tactics, reasonable force, etc. but history has told them that, push come to shove, politicians and bureaucrats will leave them twisting in the wind. 

But you are right that a weak response no doubt emboldens fellow travellers.


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Pretty quiet about the "no evidence of an old lady in a walker getting stomped" though, aren't you? I know, not a walker, just a really shittily designed bicycle thrown at a horse.


At the time of my post, nothing was appearing in the media that I could find. Didn't know every time new information came to light I needed to take a page from PMJT and apologize. I am not commenting further because of the massive conflicting stories in circulation, some say she is okay, others say in critical condition in hospital, and some say she has died. All sources I can find though are from unreliable sources so until something more reliable comes to light, yes I will be quiet on the issue.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2022)

Downtown Ottawa is the most heavily video taped spot in Canada right now. I'm sure in the coming days we'll see footage that will explain why the police were butt stroking someone on the ground or see the bicycle thrown at the horse.

That said the Emergency Act might see the police bodycam footage censored due to national security.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> At the time of my post, nothing was appearing in the media that I could find. Didn't know every time new information came to light I needed to take a page from PMJT and apologize. I am not commenting further because of the massive conflicting stories in circulation, some say she is okay, others say in critical condition in hospital, and some say she has died. All sources I can find though are from unreliable sources so until something more reliable comes to light, yes I will be quiet on the issue.


I heard about it last night. When I tried to look it up I was surprised at how may foreign news outlets were posting stories about the woman being trampled to death. 








						Who Was Roberta Paulsen And What Was Her Cause Of Death? Woman Trampled By Police Horse Ottawa
					

Who was Roberta Paulsen and what was her cause of death? Woman Trampled By Police Horse Ottawa: In the past few days, many incidents from Ottawa have been reported




					getindianews.com
				




We definitely have an audience.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The police and politicians are well aware that the Canadian public is not (yet) onside with what we see in other countries; bamboo switches, widespread use of gas, water cannons, etc.   Heck, people are losing their stuff seeing batons and helmets this morning.
> 
> Police leadership really shouldn't car, so long as they employ acceptable tactics, reasonable force, etc. but history has told them that, push come to shove, politicians and bureaucrats will leave them twisting in the wind.
> 
> But you are right that a weak response no doubt emboldens fellow travellers.


Also keep in mind (and I’m sure you do) that some former LEO was advising this group at the leadership level.  A lot of this was done to counter what police could and couldn’t do or the optics of doing something.  Old ladies and little kids getting caught up in this and police tearing down bouncy castles is not a good look in the PR side of things.  Those things were deliberately done and aren’t by accident.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> At the time of my post, nothing was appearing in the media that I could find. Didn't know every time new information came to light I needed to take a page from PMJT and apologize. I am not commenting further because of the massive conflicting stories in circulation, some say she is okay, others say in critical condition in hospital, and some say she has died. All sources I can find though are from unreliable sources so until something more reliable comes to light, yes I will be quiet on the issue.


Yes and she’s dead and a bunch of protesters have mysteriously died in custody etc etc.  Lots of dubious sources making those claims…


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Downtown Ottawa is the most heavily video taped spot in Canada right now. I'm sure in the coming days we'll see footage that will explain why the police were butt stroking someone on the ground or see the bicycle thrown at the horse.
> 
> That said the Emergency Act might see the police bodycam footage censored due to national security.



Any body cam images would have to be first vetted for evidentiary value.  Also depends on how many members are so equipped.  The OPP doesn't - yet.  I can't say I've a lot of body cams but really haven't been looking.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Yes and she’s dead and a bunch of protesters have mysteriously died in custody etc etc.  Lots of dubious sources making those claims…


A lot of 'mischevious' postings but also a lot jumped assumptions.  Some of the media has been guilty of this as well.  Do people really think the police would deploy teargas without first having their members masked?  Besides, at the point they were talking about it, I noticed the flags and the wind was blowing towards the police line.  Don't fart into the wind.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Well, if we believe police (like all the times we hear about some people dying or getting injured with police involved elsewhere) ....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495041862259912712I'm happy to stand corrected, but given the similarity of the name of the person who Indian media of some kind claims is dead to this whole fracas from the Capitol Hill riots (down to the hashtag) ...








						Roberta Paulsen Death - Obituary - Cause of death! - Dailywebpoint
					

Roberta Paulsen Death: A lady shot during a livestream of uproars at the Capitol has been recognized as “Roberta Paulson.” During riots at the United States Capitol on January 6 2021, a lady was shot on livestreams, an occurrence followed by images asserting her name was “Roberta Paulson”: WUSA9...



					www.dailywebpoint.com
				



... I'm going with the woman with the walker ain't dead until someone officially (not "Twitter says," like the whole "Morneau & the RCMP commish are related" thing went) says different.  Reminder about "breaking news" attached 

Also, Pat King facing some charges




__





						Ottawa Police Service
					






					www.ottawapolice.ca


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

If I didn’t know any better Roberta Paulsen is a boss level in most protests.


----------



## Mick (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If I didn’t know any better Roberta Paulsen is a boss level in most protests.


Name possibly inspired by Meat Loaf's character in Fight Club...?


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

An individual who identifies as a lawyer in Ottawa is live tweeting Tamara Lich's bail hearing.  It is interesting.



			https://twitter.com/JamesDBowie/


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> An individual who identifies as a lawyer in Ottawa is live tweeting Tamara Lich's bail hearing.  It is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesDBowie/


Sex offenders get bail. Thieves get bail. This will be interesting


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Sex offenders get bail. Thieves get bail. This will be interesting



The claims of the defendant and her proposed surety are... interesting.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495067765455081474

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495076565113257991


----------



## RangerRay (19 Feb 2022)

I don’t have a lot of sympathy for protestors, left, right or whatever, who refuse to disperse after given ample warning to do so. From what I have seen, police been quite restrained. Anywhere else would have seen water cannons, tear gas and a phalanx of riot shields moving with speed.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Sex offenders get bail. Thieves get bail. This will be interesting


They also don’t get bail.


----------



## Quirky (19 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I don’t have a lot of sympathy for protestors, left, right or whatever, who refuse to disperse after given ample warning to do so. From what I have seen, police been quite restrained. Anywhere else would have seen water cannons, tear gas and a phalanx of riot shields moving with speed.


Have water cannons ever been used in sub-zero temperatures? You don’t even need a lot of pressure, people would leave after hypothermia sets in.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> They also don’t get bail.


Correct as well


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

I am not a lawyer.  That said, I'm thinking that quoting the US First Amendment in a bail hearing in Ottawa is probably not making you look like a viable option as a surety for your spouse.

I'm betting defence lawyers will be using this to teach clients what not to do for years.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495084817486131209

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495086136288493577


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

Unfortunate things can happen, with or without emergency measures.  Consequences can be disproportionate to force, merely by accident.  I recall people getting similarly worked up over the old guy who was shoved, and then tripped and cracked his noggin in Buffalo a couple of years ago.  Some chalked his injury up to misfortune out of proportion to a bit of his own jackassery; some were adamant that the police involved were reckless and inattentive.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

It is kind of neat watching the French and German police practice their crowd control skills, tear gas, water cannons, batons and all.

Of course they get a lot of practice.   Fortunately our police don't have nearly as much experience.  I hope it stays that way.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Feb 2022)

We call those "unintended consequences"........like a weapon can be called less lethal, but  it doesn't mean it wont kill you if "unintended consequences" happen.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> ... Some chalked his injury up to misfortune out of proportion to a bit of his own jackassery; some were adamant that the police involved were reckless and inattentive.


Maybe not in the specific incident you cited, but I've also seen a variation of the yellow option in similar situations where someone's dinged in some way interacting with police:  FAFO.  I've also seen a variation of the red option:  "cops suck - full stop."

Every viewer's read'll vary, obviously, depending on how they feel about police in general and the protest/incident in question.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

> like a weapon can be called less lethal, but  it doesn't mean it wont kill you if "unintended consequences" happen.



Sometimes non-lethal measures aren't.  The police are bound to occasionally roll a 20 and go to the critical injury table.


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am not a lawyer.  That said, I'm thinking that quoting the US First Amendment in a bail hearing in Ottawa is probably not making you look like a viable option as a surety for your spouse.
> 
> I'm betting defence lawyers will be using this to teach clients what not to do for years.
> 
> ...


Thats just painful to read


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> We call those "unintended consequences"........like a weapon can be called less lethal, but  it doesn't mean it wont kill you if "unintended consequences" happen.


That's BS, Bruce. There is a distinct difference between an aimed less-lethal round causing an injury than the almost certain hypothermia when you soak people with water cannons in the middle of winter in Canada.


----------



## Furniture (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Sometimes non-lethal measures aren't.  The police are bound to occasionally roll a 20 and go to the critical injury table.


I think it's a combination of the defender rolling a 1 on their dexterity save, and then the police rolling a natural 20.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Just another thought -

*ERROR: *As far as I'm concerned the end game here is to develop the ability to break up crowds efficiently.

As far as I'm concerned the end game here is *NOT, say again, NOT* to develop the ability to break up crowds efficiently.

It certainly isn't to generate enough fear in that efficiency that people will never again gather in opposition to the forces of Peace, Order and Good Governance.

The end state is to generate a government that is sufficiently responsive to all the citizens it represents that none of the citizens feel the need to demonstrate in this, or like, manner.

It's not about putting the boot in.  It's about getting people to let their yellow vests and black leotards remain in the closet and forgetting where they left them.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am not a lawyer.  That said, I'm thinking that quoting the US First Amendment in a bail hearing in Ottawa is probably not making you look like a viable option as a surety for your spouse.
> 
> I'm betting defence lawyers will be using this to teach clients what not to do for years.
> 
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495079186712645641
This is just as painful to read.  Access to a private jet isn’t going to help you get bail i think…


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Speakers' Corner - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> It is kind of neat watching the French and German police practice their crowd control skills, tear gas, water cannons, batons and all.
> 
> Of course they get a lot of practice.   Fortunately our police don't have nearly as much experience.  I hope it stays that way.


The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.

These aren't really Police, they are Infantry with Peace Officer status.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495079186712645641
> This is just as painful to read.  Access to a private jet isn’t going to help you get bail i think…


Umar Zameer allegedly killed a Toronto police officer and was released on bail. Conspiracy to commit mischief and I'm assuming a clean record is hardly a reason to deny someone bail.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Umar Zameer allegedly killed a Toronto police officer and was released on bail. Conspiracy to commit mischief and I'm assuming a clean record is hardly a reason to deny someone bail.


I think the issue is her husband providing surety.  He seems a bit…off.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> That's BS, Bruce. There is a distinct difference between an aimed less-lethal round causing an injury than the almost certain hypothermia when you soak people with water cannons in the middle of winter in Canada.


You lost me sunshine......are you saying they sprayed the protesters??   All I was giving was the term we used in Corrections if something that shouldn't have happened happened.   "Unintended consequences".......pepper spray shouldn't kill you, but it can.  Breaking a bone shouldn't kill you, but it can,  so I have no idea WTF you mean by your post.

You can make it up by plunging here though [shameless Special Olympic plug] https://polarplunge.ca/locations/?f...P-HRiTIcAUtX6Mm4kYQeuyjBlDX40VavVaYw#waterloo


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.
> 
> These aren't really Police, they are *Infantry with Peace Officer status* ...


Like the Italian Carabinieri, cops whose org chart (often) tops out at the Minister of Defence.


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Feb 2022)

You're missing the point, Bruce. All of your less lethal options you provided have a very small chance of causing serious injury. Thats why they're less lethal. Applying the same logic to spraying people with water cannons in the winter is idiotic. A reasonable person will know that hosing people down in cold water in the winter outside is almost certainly going to cause injury.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You're missing the point, Bruce. All of your less lethal options you provided have a very small chance of causing serious injury. Thats why they're less lethal. Applying the same logic to spraying people with water cannons in the winter is idiotic. A reasonable person will know that hosing people down in cold water in the winter outside is almost certainly going to cause injury.


Water again??   Did I miss something???


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Feb 2022)

You're being deliberately obtuse and just trolling.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (19 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Have water cannons ever been used in sub-zero temperatures? You don’t even need a lot of pressure, people would *leave after hypothermia sets in*.



"After hypothermia sets in"?  I suspect that you don't have much knowledge about cold injuries.  Hypothermia is not "being cold", it is a medical emergency.  And it doesn't have to be in freezing temperatures; the first hypothermia casualty that I attended was a US Marine (actually, there was more than one) during an exercise on Vancouver Island in September (over 40 years ago).

As for using water in crowd control, this is probably the most recent (well publicized) use in freezing temps.  I know the Germans used to use water cannons quite a bit, but weather wasn't usually an extenuating factor.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/21/police-citing-ongoing-riot-use-water-cannons-on-dakota-access-protesters-in-freezing-weather/
		



> Police defend use of water cannons on Dakota Access protesters in freezing weather​November 21, 2016
> 
> Authorities on Monday defended their decision to douse protesters with water during a skirmish in subfreezing weather near the Dakota Access oil pipeline, and *organizers said at least 17 protesters were taken to the hospital — including some who were treated for hypothermia.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You're being deliberately obtuse and just trolling.


Seriously I'm not....I have no idea where you went, or are going, with this.  You brought up spraying water to my post about 'the term "unintended consequences".....I have no idea why.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> You're missing the point, Bruce. All of your less lethal options you provided have a very small chance of causing serious injury. Thats why they're less lethal. Applying the same logic to spraying people with water cannons in the winter is idiotic. A reasonable person will know that hosing people down in cold water in the winter outside is almost certainly going to cause injury.


Capability-Proximity-Intent 

Closing that threat triangle will determine whether/what Force will be used.  

The force response option selected must also be proportional to the threat faced.  

If a crowd is aggressively attacking a Police Line, and throwing molotov cocktails, sure a water cannon would definitely be warranted but we aren't seeing that here.  

People being a nuisance isn't a reason to use a water cannon.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.
> 
> These aren't really Police, they are Infantry with Peace Officer status.



And my wish is that we continue to be "British" and never feel the need to engage that kind of Standing Army.









						Dragonnades - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						The Killing Time - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						Why Bluidy Clavers?
					

To many people at home and abroad, John Graham was a bad man. He is seen to epitomize the rapacious cruelty of the state towards common Covenanting people in Scotland during the period roughly betw…




					bonniedundee1689.wordpress.com
				








						The Highland Host of 1678
					

The Highland Host of 1678



					electricscotland.com


----------



## Haggis (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Capability-Proximity-Intent
> 
> Closing that threat triangle will determine whether/what Force will be used.
> 
> ...


Certain response options being discussed here have second order effects. 

Using a water cannon, for example, on a hilly Ottawa street in winter where the police now have to follow up by advancing uphill is unwise.

Deploying tear gas in today's windy conditions poses a risk to innocent bystanders support personnel, and local residents.  Not to mention the joys of having the police masked for long periods in winter.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

> As far as I'm concerned the end game here is to develop the ability to break up crowds efficiently.



Not so much efficiently as consistently - as in, application of criteria for responding and application of response measures.  Also, a lot of restraint.  All of the talk permeating everything governments do about valuing life and limb and all the things we do to avoid risk is just so much babble if we so easily reach a point where people start to say, "Fuck 'em/FAFO/Stupid games, stupid prizes" etc.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.

The first question the AAR should ask:

How did we go from a late January "this is just a fringe movement" and will disappear as quickly as it came to "we need to enact the Emergencies Act".

The second question the AAR should ask:

What can we do as a Nation to ensure this never happens again?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Certain response options being discussed here have second order effects.
> 
> Using a water cannon, for example, on a hilly Ottawa street in winter where the police now have to follow up by advancing uphill is unwise.
> 
> Deploying tear gas in today's windy conditions poses a risk to innocent bystanders support personnel, and local residents.  Not to mention the joys of having the police masked for long periods in winter.


Exactly, I imagine all the downtown condo owners, business owners, workers, etc would really enjoy having tear gas residue coating their balconies, storefronts, etc 😉


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I think the issue is her husband providing surety.  He seems a bit…off.


Doesn't matter much when you can't post bail cause your accounts are frozen


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.
> 
> The first question the AAR should ask:
> 
> ...


Do you think there will be an honest effort for a transparent AAR?  Anyone take a bet that the AAR gets pulled into the EA Inquiry and sealed for ‘National Security’ purposes?  Perhaps a redacted version released a few hours before voting day for Election 2024…


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Doesn't matter much when you can't post bail cause your accounts are frozen


Right?
All this talk about water cannons, we're not barbarians. Seize their bank accounts, get them fired, and open them up to online abuse - like civilized people.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> And my wish is that we continue to be "British" and never feel the need to engage that kind of Standing Army.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Further to:



> Up to the early 18th century, Britain did not have an official policing system backed by the state. *A police force like the Maréchaussée already present in France would have been ill-suited to Britain, which saw examples such as the French one as a threat to their liberty and balanced constitution in favour of an arbitrary and tyrannical government*. The enforcement of the law then was mostly up to the private citizens, who had the right and duty to prosecute crimes in which they were involved or in which they were not. At the cry of 'murder!' or 'stop thief!' everyone was entitled and obliged to join the pursuit. Once the criminal had been apprehended, the parish constables and night watchmen, who were the only public figures provided by the state and who were typically part-time and local, would make the arrest.





> *The Bow Street Runners are considered the first British police force*. Before the force was founded, the law enforcing system was in the hands of private citizens and single individuals with very little intervention from the state. Judge Henry Fielding decided to regulate and legalise their activity due to high rates of corruption and mistaken or malicious arrests, therefore creating the Bow Street Runners.











						Bow Street Runners - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Speaker's Corner and The Bow Street Runners were the British Alternative to Standing Armies of Riot Police.


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Doesn't matter much when you can't post bail cause your accounts are frozen


Or buy food because you were released bail because those same accounts are frozen.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Do you think there will be an honest effort for a transparent AAR?  Anyone take a bet that the AAR gets pulled into the EA Inquiry and sealed for ‘National Security’ purposes?  Perhaps a redacted version released a few hours before voting day for Election 2024…


About as likely as the Toronto Maple Leafs ever winning another Stanley Cup 😁


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Also, anyone who thinks this ends with the wrap up of the Ottawa Protests is deluding themselves.

The groups challenging the Government will get smarter, more organized and will no doubt learn their own lessons from this event.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Exactly, I imagine all the downtown condo owners, business owners, workers, etc would really enjoy having tear gas residue coating their balconies, storefronts, etc


These tidbits from OPS on the smoke et. al.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495086737009299459

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495074757502541827


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Not so much efficiently as consistently - as in, application of criteria for responding and application of response measures.  Also, a lot of restraint.  All of the talk permeating everything governments do about valuing life and limb and all the things we do to avoid risk is just so much babble if we so easily reach a point where people start to say, "Fuck 'em/FAFO/Stupid games, stupid prizes" etc.




Brad - I screwed up and my fingers typed faster than my brain processed.

This is what I was actually thinking and MEANT to type.  Wars have started over less.



> As far as I'm concerned the end game here is  - *NOT, say again, NOT *- to develop the ability to break up crowds efficiently.



I'd sooner that they never happened in the first place.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Do you think there will be an honest effort for a transparent AAR?  Anyone take a bet that the AAR gets pulled into the EA Inquiry and sealed for ‘National Security’ purposes?  Perhaps a redacted version released a few hours before voting day for Election 2024…



I think that regardless of whatever official history is generated there will be lots of AARs from all sorts of people.  As normal.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Is Lich going to be held responsible for the change in atmosphere and tactics after she was arrested?

And I have vague recollections of another rebellion by a madman being handled by the government of the day.  That went well.









						Louis Riel - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






> Exile and mental illness[edit]​During this period, Riel had been staying with the Oblate fathers in Plattsburgh, New York, who introduced him to parish priest Fabien Martin _dit_ Barnabé in the nearby village of Keeseville. It was here that he received news of Lépine's fate: following his trial for the murder of Scott, which had begun on 13 October 1874, Lépine was found guilty and sentenced to death. This sparked outrage in the sympathetic Quebec press, and calls for amnesty for both Lépine and Riel were renewed. This presented a severe political difficulty for Mackenzie, who was hopelessly caught between the demands of Quebec and Ontario. However, a solution was forthcoming when, acting on his own initiative, the Governor General Lord Dufferin commuted Lépine's sentence in January 1875. This opened the door for Mackenzie to secure from parliament an amnesty for Riel, on the condition that he remain in exile for five years.[15][6]
> 
> During his time of exile, Riel was primarily concerned with religion rather than politics. Much of these emerging religious beliefs were based on a supportive letter dated 14 July 1875 that he received from Montreal's Bishop Ignace Bourget. His mental state deteriorated, and following a violent outburst he was taken to Montreal, where he was under the care of his uncle, John Lee, for a few months. But after Riel disrupted a religious service, Lee arranged to have him committed in an asylum in Longue-Pointe on 6 March 1876 under the assumed name "Louis R. David".[15][6] Fearing discovery, his doctors soon transferred him to the Beauport Asylum near Quebec City under the name "Louis Larochelle".[48] While he suffered from sporadic irrational outbursts, he continued his religious writing, composing theological tracts with an admixture of Christian and Judaic ideas.[6] He consequently began calling himself "Louis David Riel, Prophet, Infallible Pontiff and Priest King".[49]
> 
> Nevertheless, he slowly recovered, and was released from the asylum on 23 January 1878 with an admonition to lead a quiet life. He returned for a time to Keeseville, where he became involved in a passionate romance with Evelina Martin _dite_ Barnabé, sister of Father Fabien.[6] He asked her to marry him before moving west "with the avowed intention of establishing himself" before sending for her; however, their correspondence ended abruptly.[50]


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> ... All of the talk permeating everything governments do about valuing life and limb and all the things we do to avoid risk is just so much babble if we so easily reach a point where people start to say, "Fuck 'em/FAFO/Stupid games, stupid prizes" etc.


 Well summed up - regardless of who's protesting.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

> The groups challenging the Government will get smarter, more organized and will no doubt learn their own lessons from this event.



Not if the government calls them names and is vindictive.  That always lowers temperatures.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Is Lich going to be held responsible for the change in atmosphere and tactics after she was arrested?
> 
> And I have vague recollections of another rebellion by a madman being handled by the government of the day.  That went well.
> 
> ...











						Beer Hall Putsch - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




I have alluded to this elsewhere that the Nazis first tried seizing power in Germany in 1924.  This was defeated and the leadership was arrested, Hitler himself was even charged with treason and imprisoned.  He used the time in prison to work on his plans, indoctrinate others to the movement and change his tactics.

None of these people or their views are going away any time soon.  The fact that it's come to a mass-mobilization of Police Forces from across the Country to deal with this should scare people.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

"Police arrested protesters wearing body armor, they had smoke grenades on them and miscellaneous fireworks in their bags. Additional smoke grenades and fireworks were located and seized in a vehicle on Wellington."

"How many Romans?"


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Not if the government calls them names and is vindictive.  That always lowers temperatures.


Doesn't open the door to meet-in-the-middle, but that won't stop them from evolving, either.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

A couple of fun paragraphs in a NP article  (paywalled if you've exceeded your free limit) today:

"But a senior federal official said, even as it became clear protesters weren’t leaving, the city’s plan didn’t seem to adapt to the worsening circumstances. “They’re just  never seemed to be a moment where the city or the police said ‘this is not what we had planned for.’”

Trudeau changed his tone over the following weekend. “Despite their best efforts it is now clear there are serious challenges to law enforcement’s ability to effectively enforce the law,” he said on Monday, in invoking the act."

So: "they didn't try very hard", but "despite their best efforts...", so "EA ON!".


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "Police arrested protesters wearing body armor, they had smoke grenades on them and miscellaneous fireworks in their bags. Additional smoke grenades and fireworks were located and seized in a vehicle on Wellington."
> 
> "How many Romans?"


Embarrassingly, your reference went over my head. Mind explaining the How many Romans line?


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Embarrassingly, your reference went over my head. Mind explaining the How many Romans line?


Don’t be embarrassed. It went over my head as well lol. But I’d like to know too.


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

Romanes eunt domus.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Feb 2022)

Now go write that a thousand times!


----------



## Blackadder1916 (19 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Romanes eunt domus.









Did you expect anything else?


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Speakers' Corner - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Is there one in Ottawa?  A Free Speech Zone.  A place, in proximity to Parliament Hill, where the discontented can gather and voice their opinions.  And where the police, politicians and bureaucrats can keep them under surveillance.....and hear them.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (19 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Speakers' Corner - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's called a pub.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Did you expect anything else?


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> It's called a pub.




Got lots of those in London too...

All full of Freemasons, Catholics and Irishmen.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Well, protesters have a safe haven to go to.  Assuming they don’t block the borders again.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495074820345712645


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> A couple of fun paragraphs in a NP article  (paywalled if you've exceeded your free limit) today:
> 
> "But a senior federal official said, even as it became clear protesters weren’t leaving, the city’s plan didn’t seem to adapt to the worsening circumstances. “*They’re* just  never seemed to be a moment where the city or the police said ‘this is not what we had planned for.’”
> 
> ...


Good catch - sad to see the reporter not knowing which "there" to use, or the editor not catching it. 

For anyone exceeding their free limit, article text is attached for purposes of research, private study or education under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act.

OP spelling mistake fixed, thanks to Kirhill's better eye than mine


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Good catch - sad to see the reporter now NOT knowing which "there" to use, or the editor not catching it.
> 
> For anyone exceeding their free limit, article text is attached for purposes of research, private study or education under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act.


FTFY.


----------



## Haggis (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.
> 
> The first question the AAR should ask:
> 
> How did we go from a late January "this is just a fringe movement" and will disappear as quickly as it came to "we need to enact the Emergencies Act".


Strengthen and smarten up our law enforcement intelligence services and police leadership.  This was downplayed and minimized right from the start.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> The second question the AAR should ask:
> 
> What can we do as a Nation to ensure this never happens again?


Extend the EA permanently.  Pass Bill C10.  More OICs to collect all firearms.  Bring back interprovincial travel restrictions.

Or, just govern better.


----------



## Haggis (19 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Do you think there will be an honest effort for a transparent AAR?  Anyone take a bet that the AAR gets pulled into the EA Inquiry and sealed for ‘National Security’ purposes?  Perhaps a redacted version released a few hours before voting day for Election 2024…


Section 39 of the Canada Evidence Act has been invoked for far less than this.


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2022)

Well, this didn't take long.









						They can't even wait for their assault on peaceful Canadian protesters to be over before enacting a permanent police state in 🇨🇦 | By Your Liberty Project | Facebook
					

121K views, 298 likes, 12 loves, 3.2K comments, 4.1K shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Your Liberty Project: They can't even wait for their assault on peaceful Canadian protesters to be over before...




					www.facebook.com


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (19 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Downtown Ottawa is the most heavily video taped spot in Canada right now. I'm sure in the coming days we'll see footage that will explain why the police were butt stroking someone on the ground or see the bicycle thrown at the horse.
> 
> That said the Emergency Act might see the police bodycam footage censored due to national security.


No bicycle thrown.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494874987559325696


----------



## Haggis (19 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Well, this didn't take long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I said "extend the EA permanently", above, I was being sarcastic!

And we think nobody watches these forums for ideas....


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

My belief is that if you want to understand Justin it is important to read this book.  This recounts the development of Justin's father, hero and role model.

My sense is that Justin is convinced the world could have been a better place if his father had been alllowed to develop his early theories.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

​Father de Souza, as he often is, is worth quoting in full.




> Raymond J. de Souza: CBC bias on full display in coverage of Freedom Convoy, Coastal GasLink protests​It turned out that opponents of the Coastal GasLink pipeline in northern British Columbia were watching the truckers this week
> 
> Author of the article:
> Father Raymond J. de Souza
> ...











						Raymond J. de Souza: CBC bias on full display in coverage of Freedom Convoy, Coastal GasLink protests
					

It turned out that opponents of the Coastal GasLink pipeline in northern British Columbia were watching the truckers this week




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Kilted (19 Feb 2022)

It's weird seeing the media being so supportive of the police.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Feb 2022)

Watching CBCNNLive earlier today I heard host Heather Hiscox tell her colleague that all the other blockades had to have the Emergencies Act declared to resolve them.

This is either lazy on her part, or deliberately misrepresenting the facts.  The Ambassador Bridge blockade was cleared by WPS on Sunday, 13 Feb.  The EA was declared the next day on Monday, 14 Feb.  so, in her trying to justify the declaration of the EA as needed to also deal with all the other blockades (which was wrong), does Hiscox claim a «petite bêtise» and given a pass, or should we expect that a senior journalist from the Nation’s broadcaster be held to account for inaccurate or misrepresentational reporting?

I bet in no accountability on her part…


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> No bicycle thrown.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494874987559325696


Perspective is the key word, and that I'd everything. Given the unprecedented nature of this situation, if you think that the cops who Have bodies cameras don't have them on, you are crazy. Remember there will be a parliamentary inquiry after this is over because the EA was invoked, every bit of footage, radio chatted, etc is 110% being logged, and will be archived for later. Both sides can spout as much as they want, but the truth will be found out when the dust settles.


----------



## Kilted (19 Feb 2022)

I'm also concerned about the amount of issued kit I have seen on the news.  Just saw someone wearing an issued gas mask and small pack walk by the camera.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm also concerned about the amount of issued kit I have seen on the news.  Just saw someone wearing an issued gas mask and small pack walk by the camera.


I mentioned this before but I aware of a few CAF members participating in that protest.  Not saying it’s them you saw though.  Will be interesting to see if any of the 150+ arrested are CAF or not.


----------



## Haggis (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Perspective is the key word, and that I'd everything. Given the unprecedented nature of this situation, if you think that the cops who Have bodies cameras don't have them on, you are crazy. Remember there will be a parliamentary inquiry after this is over because the EA was invoked, every bit of footage, radio chatted, etc is 110% being logged, and will be archived for later. *Both sides can spout as much as they want, but the truth will be found out when the dust settles.*


Your naiveté is astounding.


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm also concerned about the amount of issued kit I have seen on the news.  Just saw someone wearing an issued gas mask and small pack walk by the camera.


Could be one of the many who are on their way out due to not getting vaccinated, clearly they don't care.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Your naiveté is astounding.


The first casualty of war is truth LOL


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2022)

This is like any breaking news story.  Initial reports will be incorrect, corrected, amended again, and eventually details will come out.

Generally, it's confusion, not malice.  (Not to say that there are not malicious actors out there.)


----------



## PPCLI Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The difference is Europe has "Police" Forces that are essentially dedicated to crowd control and public order.
> 
> These aren't really Police, they are Infantry with Peace Officer status.


I have worked a fair bit with the Carabinieri - in fact visited their HQ in Rome and met with their Commandant.  They have a fascinating mandate, and they fulfill the varied roles very professionally.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> FTFY.


THanks for fixing the spelling mistake pointing out the spelling mistake


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Perspective is the key word, and that I'd everything. Given the unprecedented nature of this situation, if you think that the cops who Have bodies cameras don't have them on, you are crazy. Remember there will be a parliamentary inquiry after this is over because the EA was invoked, every bit of footage, radio chatted, etc is 110% being logged, and will be archived for later. Both sides can spout as much as they want, but the truth will be found out when the dust settles.



Unless releasing the footage can be considered a threat to national security.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> No video yet of bicycle being thrown.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494874987559325696


FTFY


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Perspective is the key word, and that I'd everything. Given the unprecedented nature of this situation, if you think that the cops who Have bodies cameras don't have them on, you are crazy. Remember there will be a parliamentary inquiry after this is over because the EA was invoked, every bit of footage, radio chatted, etc is 110% being logged, and will be archived for later. Both sides can spout as much as they want, but the truth will be found out when the dust settles.


I’m with ya! This government has shown a clear, proven track record with regard to investigations, and i see no reason for that not to continue.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm also concerned about the amount of issued kit I have seen on the news.  Just saw someone wearing an issued gas mask and small pack walk by the camera.


Police or protester?  Usually participating in a protest is a come-as-you-are event, but it is possible somebody dropped by a surplus store.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

In case anyone was still wondering about the twice deceased Roberta Paulsen.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495162354195218437


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Umar Zameer allegedly killed a Toronto police officer and was released on bail. Conspiracy to commit mischief and I'm assuming a clean record is hardly a reason to deny someone bail.


People get it in their head that interim release ('bail') should be sort of a pre-sentence sentence.  The court is bound to consider a set of factors and pre-trial release is the default, not custody.  Most of the discussion is typically over the conditions.  Even if it is bail, cash bail is not particularly common.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> In case anyone was still wondering about the twice deceased Roberta Paulsen.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495162354195218437


All part of The Great Conspiracy.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> All part of The Great Conspiracy.


I wonder if she needs to be exhumed twice?


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

> Mind explaining the How many Romans line?



The point is a bit subtle.  Yes, it's from Life of Brian.  Point is: any number > 1 is plural.  But conceptually there's a big difference between 2 of something and 20.  The report leaves people to guess whether the issue is significant, or is merely being presented in terms that suggest it might be significant.  Advice to PR hacks: give numbers.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Your naiveté is astounding.



He's not wrong.  It may take a century or so for that to occur.  And it may not be recognized as the truth even when it comes to light.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> All part of The Great Conspiracy.


Just saw her on TV.  She apparently has a broken clavicle.


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Just saw her on TV.  She apparently has a broken clavicle.


That sounds about right.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Or, just govern better.


"Your asking for more than we can give"


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Just saw her on TV.  She apparently has a broken clavicle.


But is her bike okay?


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> But is her bike okay?


Unknown.  As far the alleged guy charged with throwing a bike, no info yet.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> ... Advice to PR hacks: give numbers.


In a perfect world, yes.  But that's why I call a lot of organizations "info-machines", too.


lenaitch said:


> All part of The Great Conspiracy.


#DeepState


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney to launch court challenge against feds’ Emergencies Act  | Globalnews.ca
					

Kenney tweeted Saturday the province will file a court challenge of the federal government's Emergencies Act in the wake of convoy protests in Ottawa.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

> But that's why I call a lot of organizations "info-machines", too.



Yes.  I assume it's intentional.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Feb 2022)

Luckily, the weather today isn't great 

Protesters block street in front of B.C. legislature demanding end to COVID-19 restrictions​Anti-mandate protesters returned to the B.C. legislature in Victoria on Saturday for the fourth straight weekend, blocking traffic on Belleville Street in solidarity with the self-described "Freedom Convoy" that has occupied downtown Ottawa for weeks.

Images from the scene show hundreds of protesters in the street and on the lawn of the legislature building.









						Protesters block street in front of B.C. legislature demanding end to COVID-19 restrictions
					

Anti-mandate protesters returned to the B.C. legislature in Victoria on Saturday for the fourth straight weekend, blocking traffic on Belleville Street in solidarity with the self-described "Freedom Convoy" that has occupied downtown Ottawa for weeks.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2022)

Why would an online journal the U.S. government claims is _"directed by Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) and closely __affiliated_ _with the Russian Ministry of Foreign __Affairs"_ be running an article like this, one wonders?








						Was the Hacking of Ottawa Trucker Convoy Donors a U.S.-Canadian Intelligence Operation?
					

Aubrey Cottle, the hacker claiming credit for stealing convoy donor info, has boasted of work with the FBI and Canadian law enforcement. The data was…




					www.strategic-culture.org
				



Text also attached in case you don't want to click here for any particular reason.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

This wasn’t a sophisticated hack.  GSG made itself an easy target.  Funding platforms are a ripe target for hackers.  If people donating there had done their research they would have stayed away.


----------



## kkwd (19 Feb 2022)

Seems people are calling emergency lines to express their displeasure with police actions. No numbers of calls indicated, could be 2 could be 200.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-theme="dark"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We know the events in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ottawa?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#Ottawa</a> are upsetting. Still, we’re asking people to stop calling critical emergency and operational phone lines to express displeasure about the police action to remove an unlawful assembly downtown.</p>&mdash; Ottawa Police (@OttawaPolice) <a href="



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495168988183252999">February 19, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> Seems people are calling emergency lines to express their displeasure with police actions. No numbers of calls indicated, could be 2 could be 200.
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-theme="dark"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We know the events in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ottawa?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#Ottawa</a> are upsetting. Still, we’re asking people to stop calling critical emergency and operational phone lines to express displeasure about the police action to remove an unlawful assembly downtown.</p>&mdash; Ottawa Police (@OttawaPolice) <a href="
> 
> 
> ...


If it was just 2 they wouldn’t have tweeted that.


----------



## kkwd (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> If it was just 2 they wouldn’t have tweeted that.


Your guess is as good as mine.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> Your guess is as good as mine.


Well there were 2 bomb threats to hospitals.


----------



## kev994 (19 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> Seems people are calling emergency lines to express their displeasure with police actions. No numbers of calls indicated, could be 2 could be 200.
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-theme="dark"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We know the events in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ottawa?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#Ottawa</a> are upsetting. Still, we’re asking people to stop calling critical emergency and operational phone lines to express displeasure about the police action to remove an unlawful assembly downtown.</p>&mdash; Ottawa Police (@OttawaPolice) <a href="
> 
> ...


That’s not the first time they’ve said that, they were announcing that either this morning or last night, so I assume it’s been going on for a while.
Edit: Here is a story from Feb 10, they were coming from USA then.


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> Seems people are calling emergency lines to express their displeasure with police actions. No numbers of calls indicated, could be 2 could be 200.
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-theme="dark"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We know the events in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ottawa?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#Ottawa</a> are upsetting. Still, we’re asking people to stop calling critical emergency and operational phone lines to express displeasure about the police action to remove an unlawful assembly downtown.</p>&mdash; Ottawa Police (@OttawaPolice) <a href="
> 
> ...


Are they not able to trace the numbers are from and send tickets?


----------



## kkwd (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Are they not able to trace the numbers are from and send tickets?


If people indentify themsleves and say they are lodging an official complaint what action can the police take I wonder.


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Alberta Premier Jason Kenney to launch court challenge against feds’ Emergencies Act  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Kenney tweeted Saturday the province will file a court challenge of the federal government's Emergencies Act in the wake of convoy protests in Ottawa.
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495202334556700680
Same guy?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

Ben Shapiro thinks Canada's decision to seize financial assets tied to the Freedom Convoy is absolutely insane and unprecedented in Western society.

Sums up by basically saying nobody should put their money in Canadian Banks because Justin Trudeau has just shown that it can be taken away at the snap of a finger,  without a Court order, if the Government decides so.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495202334556700680
> Same guy?


Pretty much.  When is the Alberta election set for?


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Ben Shapiro thinks Canada's decision to seize financial assets tied to the Freedom Convoy is absolutely insane and unprecedented in Western society.
> 
> Sums up by basically saying nobody should put their money in Canadian Banks because Justin Trudeau has just shown that it can be taken away at the snap of a finger,  without a Court order, if the Government decides so.


They ignore that fact the EA has an expiry time, meaning those assets would likely unfreeze at that time too


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

> Same guy?



It's bad to ask for federal help without also asking for EA provisions?  Jesus wept.


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Pretty much.  When is the Alberta election set for?


Next may.


----------



## Remius (19 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Next may.


Explains a lot.


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's bad to ask for federal help without also asking for EA provisions?  Jesus wept.


Alberta: send help.

Feds: Okay, here is help.

Alberta: Not like that!


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Explains a lot.


Wonder if the UPC has time to turf a leader.


----------



## FSTO (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.
> 
> The first question the AAR should ask:
> 
> ...


Main thing I learned today was that we as a nation have allowed far too much Americanisms  into our national psyche. The jaw dropping lack of knowledge of our constitutional monarchy, our laws, and how our government operates is the basis of most of the events of the last few weeks. There needs to be major reset of our education, institutions and the way our political leadership wields power. If not, I fear for the future.


----------



## FSTO (19 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Do you think there will be an honest effort for a transparent AAR?  Anyone take a bet that the AAR gets pulled into the EA Inquiry and sealed for ‘National Security’ purposes?  Perhaps a redacted version released a few hours before voting day for Election 2024…


Similar to the NS Shooting Inquest? I haven’t heard a thing. Is it even active?


----------



## kev994 (19 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Main thing I learned today was that we as a nation have allowed far too much Americanisms  into our national psyche. The jaw dropping lack of knowledge of our constitutional monarchy, our laws, and how our government operates is the basis of most of the events of the last few weeks. There needs to be major reset of our education, institutions and the way our political wield power. If not, I fear for the future.


Oh yes, I saw a post floating around FB urging people to phone the GG to ‘register a vote of non-confidence’ 🙄


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What I am really interested in seeing is the AAR after this is all over.
> 
> The first question the AAR should ask:
> 
> ...


This can be summed up very simply.

Ottawa police never should have let them set up  and once they were set up Ottawa police was too small to clear them out.

I suspect that there will be a police force reinforment program set up, or ottawa police is about to grow dramatically.


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Wonder if the UPC has time to turf a leader.


Oh it's going to happen at this rate, and do not be surprised if we see another NDP government in Alberta


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> They ignore that fact the EA has an expiry time, meaning those assets would likely unfreeze at that time too


Ehhmmm, that's not really how that works.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Main thing I learned today was that we as a nation have allowed far too much Americanisms  into our national psyche. The jaw dropping lack of knowledge of our constitutional monarchy, our laws, and how our government operates is the basis of most of the events of the last few weeks. There needs to be major reset of our education, institutions and the way our political leadership wields power. If not, I fear for the future.


I blame hippies and rock and roll.


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Oh it's going to happen at this rate, and do not be surprised if we see another NDP government in Alberta


When is the Brian Jean by election?

Just curious.


----------



## MilEME09 (19 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> When is the Brian Jean by election?
> 
> Just curious.


March 15th


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> March 15th


Interesting times. 

Thank you.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Alberta: send help.
> 
> Feds: Okay, here is help.
> 
> Alberta: Not like that!



Prov: We would like to order some assistance from your ordinary powers menu.

Feds: We flinched badly after a period of arrogance and denial and indecision and are having a special on emergency powers.  Would you like some?

Prov: No, thank you.  Ordinary powers only.

Seems a few Bright Young Folks in Media-World have forgotten that provinces usually request assistance without needing a Public Welfare/Order emergency to deal with pesky constitutional issues.


----------



## Altair (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Prov: We would like to order some assistance from your ordinary powers menu.
> 
> Feds: We flinched badly after a period of arrogance and denial and indecision and are having a special on emergency powers.  Would you like some?
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention that.

The province couldn't secure tow capacity, same the situation in ottawa.

There was only one way for the feds to secure that tow capacity, and force tow companies go assist in coutts.

Thats right, the EA.

But thanks for playing.


----------



## FSTO (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Prov: We would like to order some assistance from your ordinary powers menu.
> 
> Feds: We flinched badly after a period of arrogance and denial and indecision and are having a special on emergency powers.  Would you like some?
> 
> ...


I just saw that on the news. The CBC needs to walk the jackstay back a bit. 

Hopefully the Kenny folks will point out the difference but I fear they’ll take a flamethrower to the CBC questions.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Funny you should mention that.
> 
> The province couldn't secure tow capacity, same the situation in ottawa.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sure. 

Ironically, not needed at all from the beginning.  city of ottawa / OC Transpo 20t non-rotator wreckers we’re quite capable of clearing at the trucks, without an issue. There was no need of the Province to include sourcing heavy wreckers in its 11 Feb State of Emergency, because it was simply not required.  If you were paying attention to even the CBC’s coverage, they were Ottawa’s own wreckers and loaders clearing heavy trucks.   Not a single flashy, expensive paint-job super dual-rotator 30t commercial wrecker in sight.  

So…really? EA needed for Ottawa to use its own resources?  Not even a green wrecker from the CAF need through an ACP request from Ontario to the CAF because…well, turns out…it wasn’t needed.  Just some coordination and cooperation at the City/Parliamentary Precint/RCMP level to sort out.


----------



## FJAG (19 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Prov: We would like to order some assistance from your ordinary powers menu.
> 
> Feds: We flinched badly after a period of arrogance and denial and indecision and are having a special on emergency powers.  Would you like some?
> 
> ...


So which ordinary Federal power in particular did Alberta want that wasn't already available to it?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Unknown.  As far the alleged guy charged with throwing a bike, no info yet.


The video I saw showed a guy using a bike as a shield, but never left his hands


----------



## Haggis (19 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> Similar to the NS Shooting Inquest? I haven’t heard a thing. Is it even active?


The Mass Casualty Commission, as it's officially known, is still alive. Hearings resume on February 22, 2022.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> They ignore that fact the EA has an expiry time, meaning those assets would likely unfreeze at that time too


Freeland said some of the provisions of the EA will be permanent. Likely these will be the financial fuckery that's going on. 

The writing on the wall is clear here. You get out of line, become a nuisance, and your accounts get seized until further notice. Be quiet and don't have wrong opinions or views.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The video I saw showed a guy using a bike as a shield, but never left his hands


Still no video yet? Even though everyone had their cell phones out?


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> March 15th


The Ides Of March

The knives will be out


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Freeland said some of the provisions of the EA will be permanent. Likely these will be the financial fuckery that's going on.
> 
> The writing on the wall is clear here. You get out of line, become a nuisance, and your accounts get seized until further notice. Be quiet and don't have wrong opinions or views.


It’s probably the loophole on foreign funding for political activities.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Still no video yet? Even though everyone had their cell phones out?


Why would anyone on that side provide any evidence of that?


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Still no video yet? Even though everyone had their cell phones out?


It's out in the public domain. I saw it  earlier today.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> It's out in the public domain. I saw it  earlier today.


So someone actually threw a bike at the horse?


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> So someone actually threw a bike at the horse?


No. Someone used their bike as a sheild against the horses  when the mounted unit spilt the crowd causing the walker- borne lady to be injured.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s probably the loophole on foreign funding for political activities.


I read that a man in BC claimed to make $40K a year but somehow bought $32M in real-estate. If these new rules combat that type of thing it's a good thing. Do you have faith that this is what those permanent new additions Freeland was talking about is for specifically?


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> No. Someone used their bike as a sheild against the horses  when the mounted unit spilt the crowd causing the walker- borne lady to be injured.


That seems a far cry from a protestor throwing their bike at the feet of a horse to injure it.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I read that a man in BC claimed to make $40K a year but somehow bought $32M in real-estate. If these new rules combat that type of thing it's a good thing. Do you have faith that this is what those permanent new additions Freeland was talking about is for specifically?


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> No. Someone used their bike as a sheild against the horses  when the mounted unit spilt the crowd causing the walker- borne lady to be injured.


Is there any actual evidence that the person was using a walker. The video isn't very conclusive.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Your mileage may vary.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494919732558016514


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I read that a man in BC claimed to make $40K a year but somehow bought $32M in real-estate. If these new rules combat that type of thing it's a good thing. Do you have faith that this is what those permanent new additions Freeland was talking about is for specifically?


I didn’t see what she announced so I can’t comment on that definitively.  I’m making a guess.  There is a loophole on political,activities funding.  Seems logical to fix that.  Is there a link to her announcement or did she just say “some”.

And regardless.  Anything they want to become permanent has to be made using new and separate legislation.  Nothing in the EA can stay beyond the timeframe of the EA.


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Freeland said some of the provisions of the EA will be permanent. Likely these will be the financial fuckery that's going on.
> 
> The writing on the wall is clear here. You get out of line, become a nuisance, and your accounts get seized until further notice. Be quiet and don't have wrong opinions or views.


i'd be more inclined to accept that if it was actually applied equally across the board, and fairly, but i bet you the next time a railroad is blocked their accounts will not be frozen.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That seems a far cry from a protestor throwing their bike at the feet of a horse to injure it.


The charge is attempting to injure a police service animal.  Or to that effect.  I would say standing in front of a horse and using your bike as a shield would qualify.  Especially if he was using it to shield bash.  Could easily be mistaken as a throwing action.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> i'd be more inclined to accept that if it was actually applied equally across the board, and fairly, but i bet you the next time a railroad is blocked their accounts will not be frozen.


Have they said if that is what is going to be the permanent stuff?


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> Thats right, the EA.



Risk setting aside constitional protections in order to get hold of some tow trucks?

Well-reasoned.


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Have they said if that is what is going to be the permanent stuff?


I doubt that kind of financial power without a warrant could get past parliament, or a constitutional challange


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> i'd be more inclined to accept that if it was actually applied equally across the board, and fairly, but i bet you the next time a railroad is blocked their accounts will not be frozen.


First nations tend to blockade near their traditional lands, not city centers.

Nuance.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> I doubt that kind of financial power without a warrant could get past parliament, or a constitutional challange


I agree.  I could see them close the gap in legislation of foreign funding of political activities though.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Risk setting aside constitional protections in order to get hold of some tow trucks?
> 
> Well-reasoned.


Unless you know of another way?


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> So which ordinary Federal power in particular did Alberta want that wasn't already available to it?



Something in the set of things Ottawa can and does provide without resorting to invoking the EA, I suppose.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Something in the set of things Ottawa can and does provide without resorting to invoking the EA, I suppose.


Yeah, what is that exactly?


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2022)

Here's a good look. Dude already down and under control, but best to knee drop him a couple of times, just to be sure.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1080068899225859


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> legislation of foreign funding of political activities



Controls on funding?  Registered political parties, sure.  Registered lobbyists, if we have any, maybe.  Freedom of expression, including political viewpoints, no.  A thousand times, no.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Here's a good look. Dude already down and under control, but best to knee drop him a couple of times, just to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, that proves it.

Cops are not inherently racist.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> Unless you know of another way?



Your line of argument is basically to use the EA over trivialities.  Keep digging.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> Yeah, what is that exactly?



[insert facepalm image here]


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2022)

.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Here's a good look. Dude already down and under control, but best to knee drop him a couple of times, just to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well you wouldn't want to punch him 'cause you might, you know, hurt your hand....


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Controls on funding?  Registered political parties, sure.  Registered lobbyists, if we have any, maybe.  Freedom of expression, including political viewpoints, no.  A thousand times, no.


agreed, and depending on how they write the legislation, it could also combat money laundering in the realestate market. I am not in the know for how reporting currently works for donations, but what I think would be useful is if a branch of the CRA was created that all political parties, etc had to fully report all their finances to, every line item for review annually, including where donations came from.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> What the fuck are you on about? This shit is okay by you because it's done in the name of your hero? You really are a piece of shit, you know that?


So sensitive.

Its not okay, its just funny how when BIPOC are on the receiving end of police...tactics, there isn't usually so much angst.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Well, that proves it.
> 
> Cops are not inherently racist.


The times you say something insightful really gets diluted by the times you feel you need to sound like an edge lord.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> So sensitive.
> 
> Its not okay, its just funny how when BIPOC are on the receiving end of police...tactics, there isn't usually so much angst.


There is from me, sonny Jim, that shit is never on. A guy down and under control is out of the ruck no matter what colour his pelt is.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Your line of argument is basically to use the EA over trivialities.  Keep digging.


And your line of argument is the government come up with some other magical way to force private corporations to do things like tow a truck.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> There is from me, sonny Jim, that shit is never on. A guy down and under control is out of the ruck no matter what colour his pelt is.


You can tell by the body language of the cops around this that they want to be somewhere else and no deal with it.

He's absolutely under control and the cop is just dropping knees to hurt him.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> There is from me, sonny Jim, that shit is never on. A guy down and under control is out of the ruck no matter what colour his pelt is.


Thats great to hear.

Maybe now you can see the humor in me saying that cops are not inherently racist because the person on the receiving end of this isnt, as far as i can tell, a BIPOC.

That just makes cops jerks, not racists.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> And your line of argument is the government come up with some other magical way to force private corporations to do things like tow a truck.



Again: you're arguing possible suspension of civil liberties is OK, in order to mobilize a tow truck.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Thats great to hear.
> 
> Maybe now you can see the humor in me saying that cops are not inherently racist because the person on the receiving end of this isnt, as far as i can tell, a BIPOC.
> 
> That just makes cops jerks, not racists.


I didn't know this was a racial argument, but it was inevitable to be brought up eventually.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I didn't know this was a racial argument, but it was inevitable to be brought up eventually.


What, because BIPOC haven't been complaining about policing tactics for decades/centuries now?

To convoy participants, welcome to the club, or knee in this case.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> What, because BIPOC haven't been complaining about policing tactics for decades/centuries now?
> 
> To convoy participants, welcome to the club, or knee in this case.


Ah, so that makes it right, gotcha, I see where you're at.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Again: you're arguing possible suspension of civil liberties is OK, in order to mobilize a tow truck.


Come up with another solution. Maybe there needs to be legislation. Maybe there needs to be a crown corporation or city service. But until another solution rears its head, EA is what seems to have worked.


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I didn't know this was a racial argument, but it was inevitable to be brought up eventually.


That is likely the reason that one will really care about this.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Ah, so that makes it right, gotcha, I see where you're at.


Again, so sensitive.

It's not right. I wish police would stop using excessive force on BIPOC  but its nice to see its not a race thing. Just a matter of cops being jerks.


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

I think going forward, parliament should look at creating an occupation act. Something that can allow some of these measures without needing the Emergencies Act.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I think going forward, parliament should look at creating an occupation act. Something that can allow some of these measures without needing the Emergencies Act.


In hindsight, this should be the rational conclusion.

It wont be though, makes too much sense.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I think going forward, parliament should look at creating an occupation act. Something that can allow some of these measures without needing the Emergencies Act.


Hard no.   I want the government to squirm and be forced to have inquiries after the fact; lesser legislation encourages use of what should be extraordinary powers.  Forcing this sort of awkward situation is a feature, not a bug.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Hard no.   I want the government to squirm and be forced to have inquiries after the fact; lesser legislation encourages use of what should be extraordinary powers.  Forcing this sort of awkward situation is a feature, not a bug.


So if one cannot find a way to push in a nail with a hand, the next step is a sledgehammer?

Why nothing in between?


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> But until another solution rears its head, EA is what seems to have worked.



Use your imagination, FFS,  We're a G-7 country that participates in space programs, not a f*cking Monty Python skit.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> I think going forward...



...Parliament should buy a towing company.  Probably cheaper than a pipeline, and more likely to turn a profit.


----------



## Furniture (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> ...Parliament should buy a towing company.  Probably cheaper than a pipeline, and more likely to turn a profit.


Put them on ignore, it makes the experience of the site much more pleasant. 

That poster is just a troll, seeking to incite people here so they can brag to their "cool" social media friends about "OwNiNg CoNsErVaTiVeS"...


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> Put them on ignore, it makes the experience of the site much more pleasant.
> 
> That poster is just a troll, seeking to incite people here so they can brag to their "cool" social media friends about "OwNiNg CoNsErVaTiVeS"...


Why are you being so rude to kilted?


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Use your imagination, FFS,  We're a G-7 country that participates in space programs, not a f*cking Monty Python skit.


You know the truckers might have exposes a gap in legislation where there isnt anything else in the toolbox?


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Why are you being so rude to kilted?


I don't think he was referring to me. I don't think anyone who has read my posts could serious think that I am someone who would want to "own conservatives" seeing that I am a card carrying Conservative. 

What I am suggesting is an act that would allow one of the 14 jurisdictions to declare a certain area around an occupation (be it Ottawa, a pipeline, or a train track etc) area to be a no-go zone where people would be susceptible to arrest, and it would be prohibited. There would be no provisions to freeze bank accounts. 

After this, a small towing Crown Corporation might not be a bad idea.


----------



## Furniture (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I don't think he was referring to me. I don't think anyone who has read my posts could serious think that I am someone who would want to "own conservatives" seeing that I am a card carrying Conservative.
> 
> What I am suggesting is an act that would allow one of the 14 jurisdictions to declare a certain area around an occupation (be it Ottawa, a pipeline, or a train track etc) area to be a no-go zone where people would be susceptible to arrest, and it would be prohibited. There would be no provisions to freeze bank accounts.
> 
> After this, a small towing Crown Corporation might not be a bad idea.


You're right, I falsely attributed the quote to you, my apologies. 

While we might disagree on some points, I most certainly appreciate your view point.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I don't think he was referring to me. I don't think anyone who has read my posts could serious think that I am someone who would want to "own conservatives" seeing that I am a card carrying Conservative.


Yes, but he was talking to Brad who was quoting you.

I found that amusing.


Kilted said:


> What I am suggesting is an act that would allow one of the 14 jurisdictions to declare a certain area around an occupation (be it Ottawa, a pipeline, or a train track etc) area to be a no-go zone where people would be susceptible to arrest, and it would be prohibited. There would be no provisions to freeze bank accounts.
> 
> After this, a small towing Crown Corporation might not be a bad idea.


None of this is a bad idea. Would it be available at a provincial level or only federal?


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Yes, but he was talking to Brad who was quoting you.
> 
> I found that amusing.
> 
> None of this is a bad idea. Would it be available at a provincial level or only federal?i


Ideally both. It would be a federal act that could be invoked at either level, similar to aid to civil power in the NDA. As it involves criminal law, or perhaps peace, order, and good government I believe according to s. 91/92 that it would have to be legislated at the federal level. 

As for the towing company, I could see a use for it at both levels.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> You know the truckers might have exposes a gap in legislation where there isnt anything else in the toolbox?



Yes; they've brought the country to its knees and exhausted the combined brainpower of the entire federal, provincial, and municipal governments of the country.  All we need to do is ship a bunch of trucks to the Russia-Ukraine border and keep the air horns blaring.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> What I am suggesting is an act that would allow one of the 14 jurisdictions to declare a certain area around an occupation (be it Ottawa, a pipeline, or a train track etc) area to be a no-go zone where people would be susceptible to arrest



We already can do that, with the EA.  Apparently the drafters thought it was a power that should be extraordinary.  Fools.  They did not know the true power of the Dark Side.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes; they've brought the country to its knees and exhausted the combined brainpower of the entire federal, provincial, and municipal governments of the country.  All we need to do is ship a bunch of trucks to the Russia-Ukraine border and keep the air horns blaring.


I appreciate good sarcasm.

Not a hint of a solution, but entertaining none the least.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Re recalcitrant tow truck drivers



> Canada Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)[2]
> See 129(b) for circumstances where it is a crime not to act in assistance of the police.
> 
> 129* Every one who*
> ...


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Ideally both. It would be a federal act that could be invoked at either level, similar to aid to civil power in the NDA. As it involves criminal law, or perhaps peace, order, and good government I believe according to s. 91/92 that it would have to be legislated at the federal level.
> 
> As for the towing company, I could see a use for it at both levels.


Like I said, it logically works.

Which is why it wont happen.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Re recalcitrant tow truck drivers


Yeah, I heard about that. Why was it not used should be investigated.


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Re recalcitrant tow truck drivers


What I've said for a long time, we have all the laws, and tools we need. Our problem is a reluctance to enforce the laws as written because we have become to risk adverse and rather wait it out, then take action.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> Not a hint of a solution, but entertaining none the least.



You admit you, and the entire collected governments of the country, are incapable of finding solutions that don't require emergency powers?

Very well.  Offer towing companies a sh!tload of money.  Double the offers.  Quadruple the offers.  Buy a company.  Scour the web for new and used tow trucks for sale, and buy some.  Hire retired drivers (who have no employer to boycott) to operate vehicles.  Hire retired drivers to use DND equipment if DND operators aren't competent to tow rigs.  That's all I could come up with in 60 seconds or less, which is about as much of you as my time is worth.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> an act that would allow one of the 14 jurisdictions to declare a certain area around an occupation (be it Ottawa, a pipeline, or a train track etc) area to be a no-go zone where people would be susceptible to arrest, and it would be prohibited.



Freedom of assembly is basically meaningless if it can be turned on and off like a light switch.  That's why provisions to do that kind of thing are in the EA.

[Add to emphasize: Powers in the EA were put there because they were meant to be extraordinary, and politically difficult to employ.  To suggest, in essence, that because we have to invoke the EA to employ the powers, the powers should be removed out of the EA, is perverse.]


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> You admit you, and the entire collected governments of the country, are incapable of finding solutions that don't require emergency powers?


I had a bunch of fanciful ideas on what to do, I do admit I dont know enough about trucks and laws to say if they were feasible.


Brad Sallows said:


> Very well.  Offer towing companies a sh!tload of money.  Double the offers.  Quadruple the offers.


I dont think money was the issue here, but Im not privy to how those conversations went.


Brad Sallows said:


> Buy a company.


I like this one.


Brad Sallows said:


> Scour the web for new and used tow trucks for sale, and buy some.  Hire retired drivers (who have no employer to boycott) to operate vehicles.


This could be done, but in a quick and speedy manner in response to something like this? Probably better to stick to your previous idea.


Brad Sallows said:


> Hire retired drivers to use DND equipment if DND operators aren't competent to tow rigs.


Thats a no go and you know it.


Brad Sallows said:


> That's all I could come up with in 60 seconds or less, which is about as much of you as my time is worth.


Its like my mother always said, dont complain about a problem unless you have a solution.

So I applaud you taking 60 seconds out of your day to stop whining about the EA and think of some potential novel solutions.


----------



## RedFive (20 Feb 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Here's a good look. Dude already down and under control, but best to knee drop him a couple of times, just to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to defend these actions because I wasn't there, but I wont condemn them either. We didn't see the whole interaction. But I'll throw out some of my considerations, watching that video.

First of all, down doesn't always equal under control.

Has he got his hands under him? What's in those hands? Is he reaching for his waistband, the #1 place people hide things to do harm to others? What behaviour was he exhibiting before being dragged there? Is he threatening those cops? Telling them he's going to shoot/stab/fight them given the chance? We don't know.

It looks bad, I'll say for sure. And the fact there's other officers there watching but not acting leaves me scratching my head, because every knock down/drag out brawl I've ever been in where somebody was down but not out and continues to be on the receiving end has been an "all hands on deck" occasion. But that's been my experience.

Just food for thought.


----------



## suffolkowner (20 Feb 2022)

As far as the trucks go, why do they need to be towed? Why can't they just be driven away?


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

RedFive said:


> ... We didn't see the whole interaction ...


Zackly.  The same standard that should be applied to all kinds of videos of similar "they're already down but someone's seen whaling on them" situations.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s probably the loophole on foreign funding for political activities.


She specifically mentioned FINTRAC, which is already available to government, but needs a court order to freeze funds.  A change to keep the financial element of the EA to enable FINTRAC use and freezing funds would ‘simplify’ things and let unelected public servants direct actions against individuals’ or corporations’ bank accounts.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> And your line of argument is the government come up with some other magical way to force private corporations to do things like tow a truck.


So you’re saying the EA was the only way to confirm the use of tow trucks?

That’s not the case.  A LEOngriend of mine pointed out that Police in Canada have always been able to commander a vehicle (or boat, or skidoo, or whatever) using Sect. 129 of the Criminal Code.   No EA needed to, do so, so another untick in the “absolutely need the EA” box.

Edit to add: oops, I see @Kirkhill already posted about CCC s.129


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So you’re saying the EA was the only way to confirm the use of tow trucks?
> 
> That’s not the case.  A LEOngriend of mine pointed out that Police in Canada have always been able to commander a vehicle (or boat, or skidoo, or whatever) using Sect. 129 of the Criminal Code.   No EA needed to, do so, so another untick in the “absolutely need the EA” box.
> 
> Edit to add: oops, I see @Kirkhill already posted about CCC s.129


Like in the movies.  The problem is having trained pers to operate the commandeered vehicles.

No need for the EA.  Tow truck companies that were under contract or standing offer with police services were in breech of contract.  Simple.  Terminate contracts, go after them in civil cases for costs incurred and possibly remove their ability to operate in the jurisdictions they refused to service.

It will make an example of some so that next time, if this happens they’ll know what it costs to do such things.  I know the City Manager here is reviewing all contracts and standing offers.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Like in the movies.  The problem is having trained pers to operate the commandeered vehicles.


Yes, and real life too. 

I don’t disagree with you, as I personally believe that the City of Ottawa didn’t even need to go that route - especially seeing several of the City/OC Transpo wreckers in action, it was, IMO, unnecessary grand standing for something that wasn’t substantially used (I think some smaller tow trucks were used with EA powers, but I remain to see a single fancy-pants commercial diuble-rotator wrecker used to remove trucks.



Remius said:


> No need for the EA.  Tow truck companies that were under contract or standing offer with police services were in breech of contract.  Simple.  Terminate contracts, go after them in civil cases for costs incurred and possibly remove their ability to operate in the jurisdictions they refused to service.


Agree with this…if the contracts with the city actually contained supporting clauses, the. Cut them loose legally. 👍🏼 



Remius said:


> It will make an example of some so that next time, if this happens they’ll know what it costs to do such things.  I know the City Manager here is reviewing all contracts and standing offers.


As they should be reviewing…’For The Next TimeTM’


----------



## FSTO (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yes, and real life too.
> 
> I don’t disagree with you, as I personally believe that the City of Ottawa didn’t even need to go that route - especially seeing several of the City/OC Transpo wreckers in action, it was, IMO, unnecessary grand standing for something that wasn’t substantially used (I think some smaller tow trucks were used with EA powers, but I remain to see a single fancy-pants commercial diuble-rotator wrecker used to remove trucks.
> 
> ...


I say 1 ton tow trucks, heavy wrecker tow trucks and even the "High Boy" heavy front end loader tractors towing way the debris.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Like in the movies.  The problem is having trained pers to operate the commandeered vehicles.



That's like saying only trained professionals can give vaccines. 

Besides if you need trained people to operate vehicles we've heard all about how its only a few truckers involved in the protest and the vast majority are against it. I'm sure the government could get those other pissed off truckers to move some trucks out of the down town core.

Hell I'm qualified airbrakes, I'll do it for some taco bell.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's like saying only trained professionals can give vaccines.
> 
> Besides if you need trained people to operate vehicles we've heard all about how its only a few truckers involved in the protest and the vast majority are against it. I'm sure the government could get those other pissed off truckers to move some trucks out of the down town core.
> 
> Hell I'm qualified airbrakes, I'll do it for some taco bell.


I thought we were talking about commandeering tow trucks and wreckers?  A slight difference as far as being trained on how to use them I would think.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I thought we were talking about commandeering tow trucks and wreckers?  A slight difference as far as being trained on how to use them I would think.


So I saw a news clip that had four OC Transpo wreckers (white/red/yellow) and one black wrecker (assuming this is a contracted rig), so it’s reasonable to assume that Ottawa has a number of wrecker operators and if the city had chosen to not use its own assets in the end with minor augmentation from outside, then it would seem reasonable to expect those city employees to operate any commandeered equipment.  Your point about needing to be trained to operate them is valid, but I don’t think on the other hand you can dismiss trained city staff.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I thought we were talking about commandeering tow trucks and wreckers?  A slight difference as far as being trained on how to use them I would think.


I apologize I thought we were talking about the trucks down town.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So you’re saying the EA was the only way to confirm the use of tow trucks?
> 
> That’s not the case.  A LEOngriend of mine pointed out that Police in Canada have always been able to commander a vehicle (or boat, or skidoo, or whatever) using Sect. 129 of the Criminal Code.   No EA needed to, do so, so another untick in the “absolutely need the EA” box.
> 
> Edit to add: oops, I see @Kirkhill already posted about CCC s.129


Like i said, things were messed up at a municipal level.

For weeks the feds said the city had the resources to deal with this and for weeks the city said hell no it didnt.

When the feds are forced to act, it can only use legislation. What else could the feds do if the municipality wasnt doing its job?


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So I saw a news clip that had four OC Transpo wreckers (white/red/yellow) and one black wrecker (assuming this is a contracted rig), so it’s reasonable to assume that Ottawa has a number of wrecker operators and if the city had chosen to not use its own assets in the end with minor augmentation from outside, then it would seem reasonable to expect those city employees to operate any commandeered equipment.  Your point about needing to be trained to operate them is valid, but I don’t think on the other hand you can dismiss trained city staff.


Not dismissing city staff that are qualified to operate.  I don’t know what the current maintenance vehicle fleet for the city of Ottawa looks like in terms of numbers.   I’m guessing the numbers were not nearly enough do deal with something this big, 

As for commandeering vehicles, does the CC allow for an LEO who has commandeered a vehicle to then direct a civilian to operate it under that condition?


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I apologize I thought we were talking about the trucks down town.


Yeah, I think that any of the trucks that could be moved by driving were actually moved by police.  I saw something about police moving vehicles using the keys of detained drivers.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Speaking of trucks, the ottawa mayor is pissed and wants the towed trucks sold to help pay for policing costs.

Thats going to hurt if it sticks.


----------



## brihard (20 Feb 2022)

Purely for the sake of insertion of facts- a large number of the trucks left at the 11th hour and 59th minute as it was clear that police were moving and that those trucks would very soon be forfeit. This includes most that had been specifically parked so as to greatly hinder removal of themselves and others. Wellington was very nearly fully cleared by midnight last night. The situation changed rapidly and unexpectedly in a way that was favourable to the clearing of physical obstacles. All of this could be seen from the live cameras streaming on the web. Trucks were starting up and leaving within 25m of the front line of advancing police- not necessarily the most comfortable tactical situation, as most were facing eastbound… It also appears that for most of the trucks that remained, they were operable and keys were recovered by authorities.

Had the bulk of those trucks stayed, or even had a few stayed in such a way as to block the rest in, the need for heavy wreckers may have been an order of magnitude greater.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not dismissing city staff that are qualified to operate.  I don’t know what the current maintenance vehicle fleet for the city of Ottawa looks like in terms of numbers.   I’m guessing the numbers were not nearly enough do deal with something this big,
> 
> As for commandeering vehicles, does the CC allow for an LEO who has commandeered a vehicle to then direct a civilian to operate it under that condition?


I drive by their Industrial Rd. yard from time to time and they have a very respectable sized fleet of wreckers…I’d guess at least 8-10 large 40-50t wreckers.  It is not an insignificantly-sized fleet. 

I haven’t review s.129 case law, and am not a legal professional so I don’t know about about compelling an operator to use their own vehicle, but reading s.129, if a PC ordered an operator to tow a vehicle, I could see that being within the law.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Sell vehicles towed during protest to cover city's costs, says Watson​
The mayor of Ottawa says the Emergencies Act gives them the power to sell the seized trucks. 

Why not? It worked for Canada when under the War Measures act Japanese Canadian assets were seized and sold.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sell vehicles towed during protest to cover city's costs, says Watson​
> The mayor of Ottawa says the Emergencies Act gives them the power to sell the seized trucks.
> 
> Why not? It worked for Canada when under the War Measures act Japanese Canadian assets were seized and sold.


So now we're going to compare the plight  of those protesters to a race, that no matter if you weren't guilty of anything illegal, were treated like war criminals??


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

How about we let that kind of action actually go through the courts to determine merit, not just push it through under the EA…

Watson is the last person that we should be listening to at this point.  He’s so tone-deaf and blind to his own crappy performance in this whole mess….and other leadership fiascos like the SNC Lavelin-LRT debacle.  I can’t wait to see what self-aggrandizing retirement clap-trap he’ll be spouting leading up to the municipal elections… 🙄

_Edit to add_:


> Watson also said Saturday that independent reviews, already planned on both the federal and municipal levels, are needed to see how the protest spiralled out of control and how to stop similar occupations from happening again.
> 
> "You can't come to Ottawa anymore and shut down our city for four weeks," he said.



Are you fucking kidding, Watson?!?

How about looking in a mirror!!!

The greatest amount of leadership in this whole thing was shown by a 22-year old student, FFS!  😠


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sell vehicles towed during protest to cover city's costs, says Watson​
> The mayor of Ottawa says the Emergencies Act gives them the power to sell the seized trucks.
> 
> Why not? It worked for Canada when under the War Measures act Japanese Canadian assets were seized and sold.


The protesters certainly used a lot of holocaust comparisons in regards to their plight.   I’m sure the Japanese internement camp and seizures will be the next one. 

Can the mayor actually do that?  I think the mayor is just all talk at this point when it comes to this,  he wants to look tough and look like he’s doing something now.  

I wouldn’t be shocked though if a lot of the truckers would not be able to pay for the costs of getting their vehicles back and if the civil case goes though that they get handed over.  Or that you see them at the next police auction or the GC Surplus site.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> How about we let that kind of action actually go through the courts to determine merit, not just push it through under the EA…
> 
> Watson is the last person that we should be listening to at this point.  He’s so tone-deaf and blind to his own crappy performance in this whole mess….and other leadership fiascos like the SNC Lavelin-LRT debacle.  I can’t weight to see what self-aggrandizing retirement clap-trap he’ll be spouting leading up to the municipal elections… 🙄


Like I said.  Watson is just trying to look tough and look like he’s doing something after having done very little.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> The protesters certainly used a lot of holocaust comparisons in regards to their plight.   I’m sure the Japanese internement camp and seizures will be the next one ...


Everyone's a "political" prisoner unless one disagrees with said prisoner's politics ....


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> As for commandeering vehicles, does the CC allow for an LEO who has commandeered a vehicle to then direct a civilian to operate it under that condition?


Under the Canada Labour Code, the operator could refuse unsafe work if they felt sufficiently threatened and could articulate why the police could not guarantee their safety for the entirety of the task (e.g. from the point of tow to the impound yard to their shop, all billable distance and time).

Some civilian tow truck operators removed their company names from their vehicles for the task.  My son is a heavy truck mechanic in Ottawa and was able to recognize them on the news nonetheless.  I suppose the protesters could have, too.

Also, I recall that the OPP have a number of officers trained in heavy recovery.  My son was looking into combining his mechanic's ticket with a career in policing.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So now we're going to compare the plight  of those protesters to a race, that no matter if you weren't guilty of anything illegal, were treated like war criminals??


I'm comparing the Emergencies Act to War Measures act due to the mayor saying citizens property should be seized and sold under the authority of the EA.


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

KINSELLA: Protesters changed Canada — but not in the ways they expected or wanted
					

KINSELLA: Protestors changed Canada — but not in the ways they expected or wanted




					torontosun.com
				




I do not agree / disagree with the opinion. Just posting it for reference to the discussion, in case anyone might be interested in reading it.

The poll and its methodology is here,

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1645151885613/Shaken+to+the+core+18+02+22.pdf
What got my attention was the statistics.




Nearly 70% of Canadians support Trudeau invoking the Emergencies Act.
82% say there is “no way” the Ottawa occupation should have gone on this long.
A majority — 54% — say they are now “ashamed to be a Canadian” because of the politicians who allowed the situation to get out of hand.
Many more than that, 71%, say we are “an international embarrassment” because of the convoy truckers occupation.
Nearly 70% of all Canadians feel that any politicians who supported the occupation — Tory federal interim leader Candice Bergen and leadership frontrunner Pierre Poilievre, take note — “should be voted out of office.”
Similarly, almost 60% said that any provincial premier who lowered COVID restrictions “caved” to the those who effectively held Ottawa hostage for three weeks.
A third of Canadians now actually favour using violence to protect fundamental Canadian values.
An incredible number — 70% — wanted the truckers cleared out of Ottawa, if necessary using violence “or worse.”


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m sure the Japanese internement camp and seizures will be the next one.


If they have their property seized by the child of the war measures act for some kind of "safety" excuse? I can see it.



Remius said:


> Can the mayor actually do that?


Last month I would have laughed at someone suggesting Canadians would have their bank accounts frozen based off of analytics from the CBC. 
Now I wouldn't be surprised at what can be done via the EA.

People were confused at how and why it took 4 weeks to do anything about the protests Ottawa protests. Then confused at why the EA was the only solution. I think it's pretty easy to connect the dots.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I drive by their Industrial Rd. yard from time to time and they have a very respectable sized fleet of wreckers…I’d guess at least 8-10 large 40-50t wreckers.  It is not an insignificantly-sized fleet.
> 
> I haven’t review s.129 case law, and am not a legal professional so I don’t know about about compelling an operator to use their own vehicle, but reading s.129, if a PC ordered an operator to tow a vehicle, I could see that being within the law.



Not a lawyer, but I have a bit of a concern with S. 129 being relied on in a scenario such as this.  Whether a court would interpret "arresting a person or in preserving the peace" applied to what is essentially a mop-up operation is unclear to me.

As Brihard explained, they had to plan for the worst case scenario.  Statements that protesters were willing to dig had to be taken at face value.  A driver locked in their cab 6' above the ground would be real fun to tactically remove and w/o the keys, brakes have to be caged, driveshafts removed etc.  Multiple times.

I could be wrong but I think OC Transpo might be unique because of their network of dedicated busways.  I'm not even sure the TTC or GO Transit have their own heavy wreckers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> An incredible number — 70% — wanted the truckers cleared out of Ottawa, if necessary *using violence “or worse.”*


What's worse than using violence? Going after their families and friends?


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> KINSELLA: Protesters changed Canada — but not in the ways they expected or wanted
> 
> 
> KINSELLA: Protestors changed Canada — but not in the ways they expected or wanted
> ...


Yeah, politically this was a win.

From what i see on places like reddit, people are pissed the PM didnt use the EA sooner.


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> What's worse than using violence? Going after their families and friends?



From the article:

QUOTE

All surprising, perhaps. All depressing, certainly. There are two findings, however, which deserve special attention. They are frankly stunning.


A third of Canadians now actually favour using violence to protect fundamental Canadian values.
An incredible number — 70% — wanted the truckers cleared out of Ottawa, if necessary using violence “or worse.”
“Or worse.” What is worse than violence? What is worse than 70% of Canadians saying that?

END QUOTE


----------



## QV (20 Feb 2022)

Follow the money. 
_
The WEF infiltration of Ottawa has never been a secret, nor has Butts’ involvement. But it is far from being common knowledge among voters that the ideological model behind the Liberal policy machine, the steering mechanism that guides decisions and policies, is subversive and authoritarian. It also covers a massive policy territory, from climate to COVID-19.

Klaus Schwab was maybe the first global personality to jump on the pandemic as a vehicle for the imposition of his new world order. As a result of the COVID-19 crisis, he saw major opportunity. “The possibilities for change and the resulting new order are now unlimited and only bound by our imagination.”_









						Terence Corcoran: In Canada, follow the money + the ideas
					

Uprising a sign of new voter awareness




					financialpost.com


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

@lenaitch Appreciate your insight, as I do from @brihard.  My most inclusive past involvement supporting LEAs was fairly narrow in scope, but I certainly benefitted from insight gained from a wide range of experience from national-provincial-minor LE, and continue to benefit here.  I don’t want to imply that s.129 is a panacea, but wished to make the (personal) point that I absolutely disagree with those who make such black-and-white statements that the EA was the ONLY means by which this protest situation could have been resolved.  I don’t agree with that position and I have read through the complete *Emergencies Act* several times. (Aside: I fear that we may see some inappropriately creative interpretations by the GiC of Sections 23-25 for extension of measures to suit the Government’s agenda, whatever that turns out to be…if/when it happens, I won’t shy from reminding folks that those were valid concerns by some, well before the slippery slope was slid down…)


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Under the Canada Labour Code, the operator could refuse unsafe work if they felt sufficiently threatened and could articulate why the police could not guarantee their safety for the entirety of the task (e.g. from the point of tow to the impound yard to their shop, all billable distance and time).
> 
> Some civilian tow truck operators removed their company names from their vehicles for the task.  My son is a heavy truck mechanic in Ottawa and was able to recognize them on the news nonetheless.  I suppose the protesters could have, too.
> 
> *Also, I recall that the OPP have a number of officers trained in heavy recovery. * My son was looking into combining his mechanic's ticket with a career in policing.


As far as I know, a handful, but the skills were brought along from a previous life; I'm not aware that they specifically train them or keep them current.  Their would be no need since recovery is private industry.

Your son would likely be interested in the Commercial Vehicle units which do inspections and are called in as SMEs for serious incidents involved heavy commercial vehicles.  Numbers aren't huge though.  It's a bit of an odd situation in Ontario (and probably every other province) where the primary enforcement responsibility is the MTO (unlike many US states where the state police are responsible).  The OPP got more deeply involved - my opinion only - under the 'highway safety' mandate and the fact that the MTO enforcement capability/willingness/ budget is pretty lame.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> @lenaitch Appreciate your insight, as I do from @brihard.  My most inclusive past involvement supporting LEAs was fairly narrow in scope, but I certainly benefitted from insight gained from a wide range of experience from national-provincial-minor LE, and continue to benefit here.  I don’t want to imply that s.129 is a panacea, but wished to make the (personal) point that I absolutely disagree with those who make such black-and-white statements that the EA was the ONLY means by which this protest situation could have been resolved.  I don’t agree with that position and I have read through the complete *Emergencies Act* several times. (Aside: I fear that we may see some inappropriately creative interpretations by the GiC of Sections 23-25 for extension of measures to suit the Government’s agenda, whatever that turns out to be…if/when it happens, I won’t shy from reminding folks that those were valid concerns by some, well before the slippery slope was slid down…)


And if/when they do not, I'm sure you wont be shy in saying that these fears were unfounded?


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> As far as I know, a handful, but the skills were brought along from a previous life; I'm not aware that they specifically train them or keep them current.  Their would be no need since recovery is private industry.
> 
> Your son would likely be interested in the Commercial Vehicle units which do inspections and are called in as SMEs for serious incidents involved heavy commercial vehicles.  Numbers aren't huge though.  It's a bit of an odd situation in Ontario (and probably every other province) where the primary enforcement responsibility is the MTO (unlike many US states where the state police are responsible).  The OPP got more deeply involved - my opinion only - under the 'highway safety' mandate and the fact that the MTO enforcement capability/willingness/ budget is pretty lame.


A good friend did exactly that @lenaitch, OPP Aux and MTO Class A mechanic, transferred fully
to OPP proper, and finished as a Level-3 TTCI doing commercial and hwy work before retiring.  I did numerous ride alongside with him, and saw the smug look on shady truckers’ faces disappear after my friend would come back to the cruiser and get his orange coveralls and snap-on creeper and walk back to their truck.  He would tell them, “Congratulations!  You just ran into one of just three Class-A certified OPP Constables fully authorized to conduct MTO-inspections…”  The truckers weren’t smiling for long, once he had finished his inspection, taken their plates and impounded the truck & trailer.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

I'm not going to plant my flag on whether or not the EA was required, but it strikes me that the one thing it enabled was the bringing in of several existing federal, provincial and muncipal authorities under one umbrella, including:


The police apparently set up check points around the Red Zone and controlled vehicular traffic to residents/business owners/employees only.  I'm not sure they otherwise have that blanket authority.
It seems to have authorized the SQ to operate west of the river (the current authority in the CC is, in my opinion, really choppy).
It clarified the towing of vehicles, rather than under some HTA/bylaw authority.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

All fair points @lenaitch and I suppose it remains to be seen if the winds blow towards declaring the EA’s Public Order Emergency part every time this happens, or seek to improve existing proxies sea to address what could reasonably seen by many to be a LE-coordination/authorities issue.  I have always been supportive of ‘solve issues at the lowest level possible.’  I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…


I would like to draw your attention to post 3210.  It seems to have already started.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> A good friend did exactly that @lenaitch, OPP Aux and MTO Class A mechanic, transferred fully
> to OPP proper, and finished as a Level-3 TTCI doing commercial and hwy work before retiring.  I did numerous ride alongside with him, and saw the smug look on shady truckers’ faces disappear after my friend would come back to the cruiser and get his orange coveralls and snap-on creeper and walk back to their truck.  He would tell them, “Congratulations!  You just ran into one of just three Class-A certified OPP Constables fully authorized to conduct MTO-inspections…”  The truckers weren’t smiling for long, once he had finished his inspection, taken their plates and impounded the truck & trailer.


Glad it worked out for him/her. I've always thought a little dodgy for someone to join a police service with a singular narrow goal (not saying yours is the case).  You still have to want to do the job writ large because its a few years to 'eventually', plus the other factors that might intervene over time.  No doubt the same as in the military.


----------



## Quirky (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The poll and its methodology is here,
> 
> https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1645151885613/Shaken+to+the+core+18+02+22.pdf
> What got my attention was the statistics.





> These are some of the findings from a study released by Maru Public Opinion undertaken by its sample and data collection experts at Maru/Blue February 14-15, 2022, among a random selection of 1518 Canadian adults who are *Maru Voice Canada panelists*



Uh huh. Claiming that XX% of Canadians support one view or another based on whoever this Maru penalists are is overreaching. They don't speak for Canadians.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Last month I would have laughed at someone suggesting Canadians would have their bank accounts frozen based off of analytics from the CBC.


To be fair, we don't know how much police/int work was done by who.


Jarnhamar said:


> People were confused at how and why it took 4 weeks to do anything about the protests Ottawa protests. Then confused at why the EA was the only solution. I think it's pretty easy to connect the dots.


*Bang on* re:  the link (or lack of) between "what can get done now?" vs.  "what can get done under EA?" - at least on the visible policing/enforcement front.

Meanwhile, "Freedom George" is busted - usual caveats re:  presumed innocent until proven guilty via due process...




__





						News and Media - Ottawa Police Service
					






					www.ottawapolice.ca


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> All fair points @lenaitch and I suppose it remains to be seen if the winds blow towards declaring the EA’s Public Order Emergency part every time this happens, or seek to improve existing proxies sea to address what could reasonably seen by many to be a LE-coordination/authorities issue.  I have always been supportive of ‘solve issues at the lowest level possible.’  I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…


My flag is firmly in the “not required” camp despite my not agreeing with the protesters cause, their subsequent unlawful protest and hoping that they get what they deserve. 

But I have to agree that if Trudeau was willing to use the EA and actually gain support as a result, I don’t think he’ll hesitate to make that same cost benefit analysis again and use it as it suits him.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> All fair points @lenaitch and I suppose it remains to be seen if the winds blow towards declaring the EA’s Public Order Emergency part every time this happens, or seek to improve existing proxies sea to address what could reasonably seen by many to be a LE-coordination/authorities issue.  *I have always been supportive of ‘solve issues at the lowest level possible.’ * I fear the genie of Hammer to Kill a Fly is out of the bottle…


As am I.  I still maintain the roots lie in a failure of decisive leadership and/or failure to recognize intelligence at the outset that allowed them to become entrenched.  Police services, moreso than governments, tend to be better at learning from mistakes, their own and others'.  The challenges are consistency and convincing civilian oversight that the Constitutional lines have been crossed and it's now their ball.

I'm not sure we have to get back to the 'whack 'em and stack 'em' days of old, or the indiscriminate use water cannons and tear gas like we see in other places, but we do have to recognize that the world has changed; this is no longer hippies sitting cross-legged in the street singing.

I have confidence that any legislative attempt to allow greater access or control to things like financial records without judicial oversight won't pass the sniff test of the courts.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Gald it worked out for him/her. I've always thought a little dodgy for someone to join a police service with a singular narrow goal (not saying yours is the case).  You still have to want to do the job writ large because its a few years to 'eventually', plus the other factors that might intervene over time.  No doubt the same as in the military.


👍🏼 He had a solid 5-6 years of PC general duty before he entered the TTCI program.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To be fair, we don't know how much police/int work was done by who.
> 
> *Bang on* re:  the link (or lack of) between "what can get done now?" vs.  "what can get done under EA?" - at least on the visible policing/enforcement front.



More proof, if needed, that bad leadership can create ugly situations.

And it's not like no one knew about that.... from last year:

Internal survey reveals decline in officer job satisfaction within Ottawa police​Slightly more than half of employees filled out survey from Ottawa Police Service​
An internal survey of Ottawa police officers shows limited satisfaction in their police service, a lack of accountability for poor performance and poor conduct, and a continued culture of fear of reporting the behaviour of their own colleagues.

Results of the "member survey," which was funded by the Ottawa Police Service (OPS), were made public this week as part of a series of budget-related consultations. Few questions in the member survey had to do with resources as it focused on gauging demographics in the service and general attitudes about the workplace.

Just 56 per cent of police employees filled out the survey and those behind it called that "substantially below most large organizations," but "a respectable level and should raise no concerns about reliability or validity of results."

The survey was also conducted in 2020 during what survey-creators called the "broader context of recent social protests, COVID-19 pandemic, tension (between the service and the rank-and-file's Ottawa Police Association) and a period of transition for the policing sector."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-satisfaction-decline-ops-internal-survey-1.6221642


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Feb 2022)

Alberta is stepping into the mix with a Challenge to the EMA
Alberta challenging federal Emergencies Act against protesters in court: Kenney​_Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said the province will be filing a court challenge against the federal government’s invocation of the Emergency Act meant to help handle the Convoy protests across Canada.

In a video posted to Twitter Saturday, Kenney said the measure is redundant and “doesn’t make sense.”

“The Emergencies Act is an unnecessary and disproportionate measure that can violate civil liberties, invades provincial jurisdiction and creates a very dangerous precedent for the future,” he said. “Provincial law enforcement authorities are able to deal with illegal road blockades.”

Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said the province will be filing a court challenge against the federal government’s invocation of the Emergency Act meant to help handle the Convoy protests across Canada.

In a video posted to Twitter Saturday, Kenney said the measure is redundant and “doesn’t make sense.”


“The Emergencies Act is an unnecessary and disproportionate measure that can violate civil liberties, invades provincial jurisdiction and creates a very dangerous precedent for the future,” he said. “Provincial law enforcement authorities are able to deal with illegal road blockades.”






						CityNews
					






					vancouver.citynews.ca
				



_


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Uh huh. Claiming that XX% of Canadians support one view or another based on whoever this Maru penalists are is overreaching. They don't speak for Canadians.



Methodology explained here. Take it or leave it.



> Methodology





> These are some of the findings from a study released by Maru Public Opinion undertaken by its sample and data collection experts at Maru/Blue February 14-15, 2022, among a random selection of 1518 Canadian adults who are Maru Voice Canada panelists. The results were weighted by education, age, gender, and region (and in Quebec, language) to match the population, according to Census data. For comparison purposes, a probability sample of this size has an estimated margin of error (which measures sampling variability) of +/- 2.5%, 19 times out of 20. Further details may be found at Canadian Public Opinion Polls | Maru Group





> The results have been weighted by education, age, gender, and region (and in Quebec, language) to match the population according to Census data which ensures the sample is representative of the entire adult population of Canada. Discrepancies in or between totals when compared to the data tables are due to rounding. Panel and data services provider Maru Blue is deeply rooted in the Maru/HUB technology platform and offers on-demand, high quality, highly scalable online community samples of deeply engaged, known respondents. Respondents could respond in either English or French. Excerpts from this release of findings should be properly attributed, with interpretation subject to clarification or correction. Maru Public Opinion is a professional services firm dedicated to improving its clients' business outcomes. It delivers its services through teams of sector-specific research consultants specializing in the use of Insight Community and Voice of Market technology.





> Maru Public Opinion does not do any work for any political party. Maru Public Opinion polls with supporting detailed tables are found here: Maru Public Opinion Canada. Corporate information can be found here: Maru Group







__





						Latest Canadian Public Opinion Polls | Maru Group | Maru Group
					

Public opinion polling of the known respondents in our panel communities on timely issues within Canada, from the public policy and industry experts at Maru Group.




					www.marugroup.net
				






lenaitch said:


> I'm not even sure the TTC or GO Transit have their own heavy wreckers.



TTC does not, having been towed into their shops.


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Feb 2022)

False reports of woman's death at Ottawa protest example of misinformation, say police
					

Ottawa police say a false report of a trampling death amid the police operation to clear 'Freedom Convoy' protesters from Ottawa streets Friday is an example of the misinformation that has been spread throughout the three-week demonstration.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				





And this is why you shouldn't trust vetted sources at face value


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Uh huh. Claiming that XX% of Canadians support one view or another based on whoever this Maru penalists are is overreaching. They don't speak for Canadians.


Maru federal election polling

CPC 33

LPC 29

NDP 21

BQ 8

GRN 7

PPC 2

They seem pretty accurate to me.


----------



## Navy_Pete (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not going to plant my flag on whether or not the EA was required, but it strikes me that the one thing it enabled was the bringing in of several existing federal, provincial and muncipal authorities under one umbrella, including:
> 
> 
> The police apparently set up check points around the Red Zone and controlled vehicular traffic to residents/business owners/employees only.  I'm not sure they otherwise have that blanket authority.
> ...


I think that's why the debate in Parliament really needs to happen; there may be some very specific things that they needed to happen in the NCR that required a federal mandate to sort out the cross-provincial jurisdiction issues. The NCR is really weird, and hopefully this will get some movement on the provinces to have some kind of official agreements in place to do things like this. 

Freezing people's accounts without some kind of court order is pretty worrying though, maybe the EA should be amended to have options to call up only sections of it vice the entire thing so it's a lot more transparent what they are doing when they invoke it. Even if that is done via some kind of OIC that's not publicly available then it's there for shaping the 'ROE' of the application, as well as the eventual inquiry.

Cannot wait for the next municipal election though, there is a whole cadre of Watson cronies that need to go for the LRT debacle alone that similarly crapped the bed here. The head office at the OPS has been a mess for a while, no surprise that the survey results came back like that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

To offer another taste from the "survey says" stew pot ...




__





						Loading... | iPolitics
					






					ipolitics.ca
				



Howazit done?


> The analysis in this report is based on results of a survey conducted from February 16th-17th, 2022 among a sample of 1323 adults, 18 years of age or older, living in Canada. The survey was conducted using automated telephone interviews (Smart IVR). Respondents were interviewed on landlines and cellular phones. The survey is intended to represent the voting population in Canada.  The margin of error for the poll is +/- 2.7% at the 95% confidence level. Margins of error are higher in each subsample ...


Breakdown of "who I'd vote for" of those who participated in the automated survey here

All the details also attached in PDF


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To offer another taste from the "survey says" stew pot ...



Bit of a gender gap ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494803160635887617


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Bit of a gender gap ...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494803160635887617


Proof that men, who are all misogynists (and some who are also racist), shouldn’t be allowed to vote… (silently thinks the LPC brain trust)


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Follow the money.
> 
> _The WEF infiltration of Ottawa has never been a secret, nor has Butts’ involvement. But it is far from being common knowledge among voters that the ideological model behind the Liberal policy machine, the steering mechanism that guides decisions and policies, is subversive and authoritarian. It also covers a massive policy territory, from climate to COVID-19.
> 
> ...



At risk of ending up finding myself in Trilateral territory I thought I would dig into Terence's discussion.

Findings offered for information.   


Young Global Leaders 





__





						Young Global Leaders - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						The Forum of Young Global Leaders
					






					www.younggloballeaders.org
				





World Economic Forum









						World Economic Forum - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						The Great Reset
					

There is an urgent need for global stakeholders to cooperate in simultaneously managing the direct consequences of the COVID-19 crisis. To improve the state of the world, the World Economic Forum is starting The Great Reset initiative.




					www.weforum.org
				












						Our Mission
					

The World Economic Forum is the International Organization for Public-Private Cooperation. The Forum engages the foremost political, business, cultural and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas.




					www.weforum.org
				












						Our Alumni Community
					

After a transformative personal and professional journey as a Young Global Leader, our members are invited to join the YGL Alumni Community.




					www.younggloballeaders.org
				





Klaus Schwab









						Klaus Schwab - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Klaus Schwab
					

Professor Klaus Schwab was born in Ravensburg, Germany in 1938. He is Founder and Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum, the International Organization for Public-Private Cooperation.




					www.weforum.org
				











Wiki's (Incomplete) List of Interesting Young Global Leaders  -  Notables Highlighted



> Members and alumni[edit]​Notable members and alumni of Young Global Leaders include:[9]
> 
> 
> Jacinda Ardern, *Prime Minister of New Zealand*
> ...



I'm assuming the accuracy given that it was posted on Wikipedia, and includes Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia.



Also from Wikipedia I offer this - a philosophy very popular in Europe from the 1880s to May 8 1945.

Corporatism





__





						Corporatism - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Eisenhower (from his grave): “Dammit!  I told you!”


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495133664111325185


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/poll-canadians-living-in-alberta-climate-change-1.6272645
		


An earlier Maru poll covered in our National broadcaster highlighting the differences between us Albertans and Canadians.

Funny thing.  I never thought of 5% as being a significant number but apparently it is.  The difference between Albertans and Canadians is that less than 5% of the populations have different opinions on questions of public interest.  

Somehow those rather limited differences have been translated into 15% of the populations having different feelings about each other.

I am sure that CBC can explain the difference.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To offer another taste from the "survey says" stew pot ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


39 strongly oppose+5 somewhat oppose=44

38 strongly support+13 somewhat support= 51

Title

More canadians strongly oppose emergencies act shows mainstreet poll

Technically true though.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I think that's why the debate in Parliament really needs to happen; there may be some very specific things that they needed to happen in the NCR that required a federal mandate to sort out the cross-provincial jurisdiction issues. The NCR is really weird, and hopefully this will get some movement on the provinces to have some kind of official agreements in place to do things like this.
> 
> Freezing people's accounts without some kind of court order is pretty worrying though, maybe the EA should be amended to have options to call up only sections of it vice the entire thing so it's a lot more transparent what they are doing when they invoke it. Even if that is done via some kind of OIC that's not publicly available then it's there for shaping the 'ROE' of the application, as well as the eventual inquiry.
> 
> Cannot wait for the next municipal election though, there is a whole cadre of Watson cronies that need to go for the LRT debacle alone that similarly crapped the bed here. The head office at the OPS has been a mess for a while, no surprise that the survey results came back like that.


I've heard a lot of chatter about jurisdictional issues in Ottawa, so we will see if much comes of it.  I'm not sure I'm a fan of a federal territory a la DC or Canberra, if for no other reason that it would have to include Gatineau and; Good. Luck. With. That.  I'd have to be convinced whether carving out larger pieces of the downtown into the Parliamentary Precinct is feasible or offers much of an improvement.  Unless they do it by complete city blocks, you would end up with weird jurisdictional issues divided by invisible lines, and make the the Speakers of Parliament responsible for law enforcement on public and private property.

Years ago I was in a meeting with the RCMP liaison at the embassy who mentioned the number of federal and local law enforcement agencies in DC (I forget) and quipped that whoever picks up a drunk that passes out on a sidewalk depends on the sidewalk and which way he falls.  I don't think we need to emulate that.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495434279811231749
Freedom.


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> False reports of woman's death at Ottawa protest example of misinformation, say police
> 
> 
> Ottawa police say a false report of a trampling death amid the police operation to clear 'Freedom Convoy' protesters from Ottawa streets Friday is an example of the misinformation that has been spread throughout the three-week demonstration.
> ...


Another big misinformation that is going around is that the woman involved was the one charged by police for using the bicycle to harm the police horse.

Also, it appears from another video I saw that the "walker" is a broom with a white flag attached to it.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

And after 500 years of play

Trent 1, Geneva 0.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> The mayor of Ottawa says the Emergencies Act gives them the power to sell the seized trucks.



Petty, vindictive, inflammatory, and above all, unnecessary.



> An incredible number — 70% — wanted the truckers cleared out of Ottawa, if necessary using violence “or worse.”



70% shat themselves and gave the lie to the notion that Canadians are decent people, and if 70% felt that way, none of the other cited fractions is likely to represent something other than a mind slightly unhinged by something quite a bit less than a war or insurrection.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Petty, vindictive, inflammatory, and above all, unnecessary.



Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for their criminal activities?  Normally you're all for fiscal responsibility in Govt. 
Forfeiture of assets is common enough....


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for their criminal activities?  Normally you're all for fiscal responsibility in Govt.
> Forfeiture of assets is common enough....


Not when its against "his" team.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-hearing-february-19-1.6358307?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar
		




> Dwayne Lich questions legality of Emergencies Act​He also questioned whether the Emergencies Act — which was debated Saturday in the House of Commons — was implemented legally, at times confusing the numbered amendments found in the U.S. Constitution with Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> "Honestly? I thought it was a peaceful protest and based on my first amendment, I thought that was part of our rights," he told the court.
> 
> ...



This gets me every single time.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Is it time to move Ottawa out of Ottawa?
					

If work doesn’t need to be done in Ottawa-area offices, does it need to be done in Ottawa at all?




					theconversation.com
				




It's an option - 

Maybe they can find an RV Park.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for their criminal activities?  Normally you're all for fiscal responsibility in Govt.
> Forfeiture of assets is common enough....


Through laws specifically written to address such situations, absolutely!

Through use of the most extreme law to delegate such abilities down to unelected bureaucrats or civilian institution employees…no thanks.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

America Is Not Divided; It’s Being Hijacked › American Greatness
					

It seems lately like everywhere, on both the Right and the Left, we are hearing a chorus of voices tell us America is hopelessly divided and on the brink of a second civil war. The level of rancor and…




					amgreatness.com


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

> Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for their criminal activities?



It's like health care.  Cover everything.

But it's not about money.  It's about defusing unrest.  You have to be pretty f*cking dumb to lay the groundwork for millions of dollars of future operations in order to recover a few hundred K.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Feb 2022)

About as stupid as it would be to hand back criminals all the tools they used to cause a crime.

It's called consequences......


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

The fact that a leader who himself was clearly negligent in failing to provide appropriate direction and guidance in the first place, is now espousing the blanket recovery of funds from auction of protesters assets, vice through the use of the Emergencies Act - Part V - Compensation through the Federal Government’s Consolidate Revenue Fund again goes to show how far out of the realm of understanding the issue and the means available, was/is understood by Mayor Watson…

For the love of God, Watson…do us all a favour and shut up already!


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

A handful of incidents in the past few years, mostly resulting from natural causes, created severe disruptions.  Our technology- and trade-dependent society is vulnerable to disruptions that have effects all out of proportion to the effort needed to create them.

"Squeeze those people until they bleed" is a counter-productive doctrine.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> About as stupid as it would be to hand back criminals all the tools they used to cause a crime.
> 
> It's called consequences......


And I bet that many will express remorse and regret as they face those consequences now that the party and the mob backing them is gone.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for their criminal activities?  Normally you're all for fiscal responsibility in Govt.
> Forfeiture of assets is common enough....


It is common (I'm all for it with drug deals and such), but for conspiracy to commit mischief or mischief though?

It seems like they're pulling the old administrative measures because charges won't stick trick. No?

If the government thinks they're acting like terrorists then charge them with terrorism.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The fact that a leader who himself was clearly negligent in failing to provide appropriate direction and guidance in the first place, is now espousing the blanket recovery of funds from auction of protesters assets, vice through the use of the Emergencies Act - Part V - Compensation through the Federal Government’s Consolidate Revenue Fund again goes to show how far out of the realm of understanding the issue and the means available, was/is understood by Mayor Watson…
> 
> For the love of God, Watson…do us all a favour and shut up already!






He does sound like someone who gets all brave after the door is locked....


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

It was bad enough, as far as Japanese-Canadians were concerned that they were arrested, relocated and interned.

It was made immeasurably worse by the profiteering that occurred when their property was confiscated then sold to their neighbours and competitors.

It certainly didn't make them better Canadians.   Fortunately they tend to be some of the most "accepting" people you will ever meet.  They just get on and do.

Not all of our current population is so inclined.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> He does sound like someone who gets all brave after the door is locked....


It’s his M.O.

When things look good he will always be there, in front of a camera.  When they are bad he isn’t to be found or he blames everyone else.

He’s really good at showing up to seniors’ breakfasts, ribbon cutting and what not.   But ask him to explain the light rail debacle or this event (actual city issues and responses) and he’s always deflecting.  He’s created a little circle of support in council to bully his way to whatever he wants. 

I’d get rid of most city councillors at this point.  None have shown any real leadership. Ottawa has cleansed council before and I hope they do it again.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2022)

I for one look forward to future academic studies on this incident.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495228474642112513


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I've heard a lot of chatter about jurisdictional issues in Ottawa, so we will see if much comes of it.  I'm not sure I'm a fan of a federal territory a la DC or Canberra, if for no other reason that it would have to include Gatineau and; Good. Luck. With. That.  I'd have to be convinced whether carving out larger pieces of the downtown into the Parliamentary Precinct is feasible or offers much of an improvement.  Unless they do it by complete city blocks, you would end up with weird jurisdictional issues divided by invisible lines, and make the the Speakers of Parliament responsible for law enforcement on public and private property.
> 
> Years ago I was in a meeting with the RCMP liaison at the embassy who mentioned the number of federal and local law enforcement agencies in DC (I forget) and quipped that whoever picks up a drunk that passes out on a sidewalk depends on the sidewalk and which way he falls.  I don't think we need to emulate that.


Having seen what the Federal government (and SNC lavilin) can do to run a mall into the ground with heritage buildings in tourist central, I would not wish that onto the people that live in the proposed area.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> It was bad enough, as far as Japanese-Canadians were concerned that they were arrested, relocated and interned.
> 
> It was made immeasurably worse by the profiteering that occurred when their property was confiscated then sold to their neighbours and competitors.
> 
> ...


If they are so hard done, I hear some US states are offering political asylum


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

​



Good2Golf said:


> Proof that men, who are all misogynists (and some who are also racist), shouldn’t be allowed to vote… (silently thinks the LPC brain trust)





Just have to see how divided Canadians are when the next election comes around.   🤷‍♂️ 









						The biggest divide in Canadian politics? Men vs. Women. - Macleans.ca
					

Philippe J. Fournier: If only men voted, the Liberal and Conservatives would be in a statistical tie. Only women: the Liberals win a crushing 226 seats.




					www.macleans.ca


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

The divided community of Coutts, Alberta.  Population 250.









						‘Friendships have been torn up’: Coutts trucker protest may have left a community divided  | Globalnews.ca
					

The small Village of Coutts was thrust into the national spotlight when a convoy of truckers and their supporters set up on the main highway into the village on Jan. 29




					globalnews.ca
				






> *“I had lunch with a friend recently after not seeing her for a while, and she said she was worried I was mad at her, because she didn’t support the protests. I had no idea,” *O’Hara said.
> 
> *“If there is a division, I don’t think it will last that long. I would hope people would get past that. There are always differences of opinion*.”
> 
> ...


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495434279811231749
> Freedom.



Politics aside for 37 seconds, that was a joy to watch.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Politics aside for 37 seconds, that was a joy to watch.


Are people allowed to put politics aside for 37 seconds?


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Are people allowed to put politics aside for 37 seconds?



I remember when the biggest political controversy on our street was whether or not to install sidewalks, and why the garbage collectors stopped going around back of the house. There's no Liberal or Conservative way to fix a sewer.


----------



## Quirky (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Are people allowed to put politics aside for 37 seconds?



This convoy stuff has been a nice distraction from 24/7 Covid statistics and other media BS fear mongering. I’m sure they’ll be back to the status quo once this settles down.


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495427196072169476
SIU involved in horse trampling female protestor causing injuries. Also note less lethal firearm discharges (which was caught on video when a journalist was struck at point blank range with the projectile).


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Another big misinformation that is going around is that the woman involved was the one charged by police for using the bicycle to harm the police horse.
> 
> Also, it appears from another video I saw that the "walker" is a broom with a white flag attached to it.


So I going to edit this to say that, I have re-watched the video and you can see the handle of the walker in the bottom of the screen at one point.  She is also holding a broom with a white flag.

Either way, I really wonder why she thought that it was a good idea to be that close to the front-line of the protest.


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> So I going to edit this to say that, I have re-watched the video and you can see the handle of the walker in the bottom of the screen at one point.  She is also holding a broom with a white flag.
> 
> Either way, I really wonder why she thought that it was a good idea to be that close to the front-line of the protest.


Because King was spreading false information that if you have a white flag, police can't do anything


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Because King was spreading false information that if you have a white flag, police can't do anything


I know that, but even if there were not horses present she was still at risk of being nocked over by another protestor.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> ​
> Just have to see how divided Canadians are when the next election comes around.   🤷‍♂️
> 
> 
> ...



Before we go highlighting yet another divide to bring virtual swords to the canton....









						The Swiss Custom of Voting While Shitfaced and Heavily Armed
					

Landsgemeinde is a wonderful chance to get hammered in public and vote for a farmer to be your "city captain."




					www.vice.com
				




Men 37% Liberal, 35% Conservative - 2% difference  - remove 1% from the Liberals and add it to the Conservatives - 36-36 
Women 47% Liberal, 23% Conservative - 24% difference - remove  12% from the Liberals and add it to the Conservatives - 35-35

In the real world men and women both vote - 50-50

So moving 12% of the female population or 6% of the total population puts the game back evens.

Those types of swings are regularly seen.

Mountains and molehills.  Unless  one is set on fomenting division.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Because King was spreading false information that if you have a white flag, police can't do anything


The organisers were spreading that among other fake things.  Like OPS has resigned en masse, that they wouldn’t be arrested, that they couldn’t take their trucks etc etc.  Good people being led by bad actors.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495427196072169476
> SIU involved in horse trampling female protestor causing injuries. Also note less lethal firearm discharges (which was caught on video when a journalist was struck at point blank range with the projectile).


Here's what they're saying so far ....


> ... Preliminary information suggests the following:
> 
> On Friday, February 18 at approximately 5:14 p.m. there was an interaction between a Toronto Police Service officer on a horse and a 49-year-old woman on Rideau Street and Mackenzie Avenue.
> The woman has a reported serious injury.
> ...


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

So far all that I have seen is one representative from New Mexico saying that she will introduce legislation.  I doubt it will go away.  Although, I wonder if we might be better off if a few of these people left the country. 


Altair said:


> If they are so hard done, I hear some US states are offering political asylum


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> ... More canadians strongly oppose emergencies act shows mainstreet poll
> 
> Technically true though.


Could also be "more than previous polling", too.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tamara-lich-bail-hearing-february-19-1.6358307?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've read about some of the evidence being reported out of the bail hearings.  He may not be a core organizer, but he shares a bed with one.  Gives you confidence that the so-called leadership of this exercise received their civics knowledge from social media and/or the back of a cereal box.


Kirkhill said:


> Is it time to move Ottawa out of Ottawa?
> 
> 
> If work doesn’t need to be done in Ottawa-area offices, does it need to be done in Ottawa at all?
> ...


De-centralize all they want but there would still be the seat of government.



Colin Parkinson said:


> Having seen what the Federal government (and SNC lavilin) can do to run a mall into the ground with heritage buildings in tourist central, I would not wish that onto the people that live in the proposed area.


No kidding - governments make lousy landlords.  I understand folks living in PMQ/RHU housing would agree.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> It is common (I'm all for it with drug deals and such), but for conspiracy to commit mischief or mischief though?
> 
> It seems like they're pulling the old administrative measures because charges won't stick trick. No?
> 
> If the government thinks they're acting like terrorists then charge them with terrorism.


You mean there are laws to do that?  Crazy talk!





__





						Anti-terrorism Act
					

Federal laws of canada




					laws-lois.justice.gc.ca


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I've read about some of the evidence being reported out of the bail hearings.  He may not be a core organizer, but he shares a bed with one.  Gives you confidence that the so-called leadership of this exercise received their civics knowledge from social media and/or the back of a cereal box.
> 
> De-centralize all they want but there would still be the seat of government.
> 
> ...




Perhaps Ottawa might want to consider creating a designated Demonstration Ground where the OPS can direct and contain protesters while they conduct orderly, if not necessarily lawful, demonstrations.   Preferably in sight of Parliament Hill.

I offer the National Mall in DC and Hyde Park in London as examples.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Perhaps Ottawa might want to consider creating a designated Demonstration Ground where the OPS can direct and contain protesters while they conduct orderly, if not necessarily lawful, demonstrations.   Preferably in sight of Parliament Hill.
> 
> I offer the National Mall in DC and Hyde Park in London as examples.


To date, it has seemed to be on Parliament Hill proper, or sometimes Major Hill Park to the immediate East.  Worked well since before the Emergencies Act came into being in 1988.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> To date, it has seemed to be on Parliament Hill proper, or sometimes Major Hill Park to the immediate East.  Worked well since before the Emergencies Act came into being in 1988.


Can still work well.  Just don’t let trucks in.


----------



## Weinie (20 Feb 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> He does sound like someone who gets all brave after the door is locked....


Sorta like this guy.






He wanted to ride in like the cavalry, but the only mode of transport was a snowmobile. He declined.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/otta...ractures-pelvis-in-snowmobile-crash-1.2977539


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Here's what they're saying so far ....


Well, that's interesting.  The TPS mounted unit-related injury appears to fall without their mandate.  Without an injury (as defined in the Act) from the ARWEN discharge, I'm not convinced the SIU has jurisdiction. The fact that it might have been discharged by a non-Ontario member will be interesting to watch, since I'm not convinced they are captured by the Act, unless there was some agreement as part of the work-up for the deployment.

I recall an incident, several years ago and very early in the SIU's existence, where a joint OPP-RCMP takedown went a little south and an RCMP member wounded a miscreant.  The SIU showed up and made a set of demands from the RCMP and its member, who promptly told them to go pound sand.

Edit - I mis-read.  Their jurisdiction does include the "discharge of a firearm at a person".  The other issue still stands in my mind.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I've read about some of the evidence being reported out of the bail hearings.  He may not be a core organizer, but he shares a bed with one.  Gives you confidence that the so-called leadership of this exercise received their civics knowledge from social media and/or the back of a cereal box.
> 
> De-centralize all they want but there would still be the seat of government.
> 
> ...


Malaysia built an entire goverment centre on the outskirts of KL to reduce congestion. Note they also offer free housing to civil servants. Putrajaya | city and federal territory, Malaysia


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Perhaps Ottawa might want to consider creating a designated Demonstration Ground where the OPS can direct and contain protesters while they conduct orderly, if not necessarily lawful, demonstrations.   Preferably in sight of Parliament Hill.
> 
> I offer the National Mall in DC and Hyde Park in London as examples.


I offer the Central Experimental Farm.    Or be like the Beijing Olympics where they setup designated protest zones, in a country where it is illegal to protest.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

[





lenaitch said:


> Or be like the Beijing Olympics where they setup designated protest zones, in a country where it is illegal to protest.


AKA the beaten zone.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I offer the Central Experimental Farm.    Or be like the Beijing Olympics where they setup designated protest zones, in a country where it is illegal to protest.



Or Lebreton flats.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Can still work well.  Just don’t let trucks in.


 
Could have let the trucks in an park them in Lansdowne Park and similar venues and let the organizers arrange shuttles to the Hill.  The politicians and the press would have seen the protesters, under control, and the protesters would have been able to demonstrate their commitment and size of their support by the number of trucks remaining on site.

With no emergency.

Or did Covid rules get in the way of recognized practice?


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Could have let the trucks in an park them in Lansdowne Park and similar venues and let the organizers arrange shuttles to the Hill.  The politicians and the press would have seen the protesters, under control, and the protesters would have been able to demonstrate their commitment and size of their support by the number of trucks remaining on site.
> 
> With no emergency.
> 
> Or did Covid rules get in the way of recognized practice?


Like the Coventry Road Command Center?  No thanks.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Former prime minister Chrétien says Trudeau has 'absolutely no authority' to quash blockades through police force
					

'For those who are both demanding Trudeau call in or call off the police with regards to blockades it isn't in the job description,' tweets former NDP MP Nathan Cullen, who is serving as B.C.'s liaison with the Wet'suwet'en people.




					www.hilltimes.com


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/when-protest-met-pepper-spray-at-the-1997-apec-conference-1.5358298


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

2001 Quebec protests - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						28th G8 summit - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




I am pretty sure that there were multiple national police and security forces at all of these events, without the Emergency Measures Act being employed.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Like the Coventry Road Command Center?  No thanks.



"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

You either permit a demonstration to happen and manage it or try to oppose it and count the casualties.

That is the purpose of Speaker's Corner which has been defusing and dissipating anti-government feelings since the 1848 Chartist Petition.

Revolutions brought down governments, and churches, all over Europe.  Britain's Establishment survived, despite the same famines that drove the revolutions in Europe occurring in Scotland and Ireland.


----------



## rnkelly (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/archives/when-protest-met-pepper-spray-at-the-1997-apec-conference-1.5358298


Oh man, it was awesome when Nardwuar the human serviette questioned Chrétien on pepper spray. Those were the days…


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Or Lebreton flats.



Fail to plan, plan to fail.

Ottawa exists because it wasn't Montreal or Kingston.  It was designed to be away from noisy protesters that had demonstrated a willingness to burn politicians and bureaucrats out of their taxpayer funded debating halls.

Ottawa is a centre of governance.  Lots of bureaucrats, lawyers and scribes busily clerking away in their warrens.  More power to them.

But it is also a centre of debate.

The home of the Supreme Court - where the application of current laws is debated.
The home of the Commons and Senate - where all laws are debated
The home of the Governor-General (and her Council) - to whom every Canadian can lawfully appeal and petition for redress of any and all grievances.

And a grievance does not have to be grounded in reality.  But it does have to be addressed.


grievance​NOUN​1  A real or imagined cause for complaint, especially unfair treatment.


1.1 An official statement of a complaint over something believed to be wrong or unfair.

1.2 A feeling of resentment over something believed to be wrong or unfair.


As a Canadian not resident in Ottawa, a place that jealously guards its position as the Nation's Capital and Centre of Governance, and whose denizens cheerfully take full advantage of first crack at all jobs of influence in the warren by rendering it difficult for non-residents to get government positions (see relocation policies for new applicants), I don't feel it is asking too much that provision be made for the rest of Canada to enjoy easy access to our politicians, our bureaucrats and our debating chambers.

Your City Council, and the National Capital Commission might want to take that into account when considering downtown planning.   

Do a Haussmann on Ottawa.









						Haussmann's renovation of Paris - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## FSTO (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> How about we let that kind of action actually go through the courts to determine merit, not just push it through under the EA…
> 
> Watson is the last person that we should be listening to at this point.  He’s so tone-deaf and blind to his own crappy performance in this whole mess….and other leadership fiascos like the SNC Lavelin-LRT debacle.  I can’t wait to see what self-aggrandizing retirement clap-trap he’ll be spouting leading up to the municipal elections… 🙄
> 
> ...


Congratulations Watson, you have accomplished what was always thought to be impossible. Becoming more hated in Ottawa then the Senators owner Eugene Melnyk.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Perhaps Ottawa might want to consider creating a designated Demonstration Ground where the OPS can direct and contain protesters while they conduct orderly, if not necessarily lawful, demonstrations.   Preferably in sight of Parliament Hill.


IIRC, that concept didn't work all that well during the G8/G20 here in Canada, but maybe it can be better implemented now.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

*‘Threat still exists’: Emergencies Act to remain as long as required, Bill Blair says*








						‘Threat still exists’: Emergencies Act to remain as long as required, Bill Blair says - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In an interview on the West Block, Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair says as soon as the job is completed, 'we will end these measures.'




					globalnews.ca
				




It's not like it's permanent, it's just as long as Blair and Trudeau say there's a threat.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> "If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019
> 
> You either permit a demonstration to happen and manage it or try to oppose it and count the casualties.
> 
> ...


Demonstration _was_ allowed and accommodated.

What happened was that the group demonstrating took advantage of that freedom to demonstrate and dug in and changed their posture to unlawful occupation.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (20 Feb 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Freezing people's accounts without some kind of court order is pretty worrying though, maybe the EA should be amended to have options to call up only sections of it vice the entire thing so it's a lot more transparent what they are doing when they invoke it. Even if that is done via some kind of OIC that's not publicly available then it's there for shaping the 'ROE' of the application, as well as the eventual inquiry.



But that is exactly what the current Emergencies Act does.  In the case of a "Public Order Emergency", this is what the EA permits the government to do. Emergencies Act

To invoke the powers of the act required a proclamation which the Governor General issued and was published in the Canada Gazette
Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1: Proclamation Declaring a Public Order Emergency

The orders and regulations as per section 19 of the act defining what was thought necessary to deal with the specifics of this public order emergency were promulgated in the Canada Gazette




__





						Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1: Emergency Measures Regulations
					

February 15, 2022, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1, Canada Gazette




					www.gazette.gc.ca
				







__





						Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1: Emergency Economic Measures Order
					

February 15, 2022, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1, Canada Gazette




					www.gazette.gc.ca
				




And while the Emergency Measures Regulations (EMR) does include an open-ended description of a protected place as "any other place as designated by the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness", it does not appear that such additional designations have been made.  It all seems transparent to me.

Is it time to amend the Emergencies Act?  Perhaps.  It has, after all, been thirty-five years since that piece of legislation was brought in to replace the War Measures Act which had a much more heavy handed approach that didn't really fit the last time the WMA was invoked.  I don't take credit for the suggestion since I heard it on a CBC radio discussion (unfortunately I can't remember who the speaker was) but the premise is that it may be time to amend the act to take into account the monumental changes in media, communications and currency (e.g. crypto) that have occurred since the 1980s.

For comparison (of orders of magnitude for opportunity to violate civil rights) I include the Public Order Regulations made under the War Measures Act in 1970 and the later Public Order Temporary Measures Act.




__





						Public Order Regulation, October 1970 - Quebec History
					





					faculty.marianopolis.edu
				







__





						Public Order Temporary Regulations, November 1970 - Quebec History
					





					faculty.marianopolis.edu


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

> there was an interaction between a Toronto Police Service officer on a horse and a 49-year-old woman



Toronto ( 27 horses ) and Hamilton ( 5 horses ) are the only mounted ( non-ceremonial ) patrol units in Ontario.

Maybe Ottawa will consider a mounted police patrol unit of its own?


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Toronto ( 27 horses ) and Hamilton ( 5 horses ) are the only mounted ( non-ceremonial ) patrol units in Ontario.
> 
> Maybe Ottawa will consider a mounted police patrol unit of its own?


After seeing how effective they were, I think that it would be a good idea for many different police forces to look into them.


----------



## Kilted (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Toronto ( 27 horses ) and Hamilton ( 5 horses ) are the only mounted ( non-ceremonial ) patrol units in Ontario.
> 
> Maybe Ottawa will consider a mounted police patrol unit of its own?


After seeing how effective they were, I think that it would be a good idea for many different police forces to look into them


----------



## RangerRay (20 Feb 2022)

A good, chewy article from The Line. 









						Dispatch from the Front Line: We just don't trust you, Mr. Trudeau
					

The protest in Ottawa disperses; what now for the Emergencies Act?




					theline.substack.com
				




A good all round article but these two points jumped out at me about how badly most of these protesters were taken advantage of. 



> The first is, of course, that these guys were way, way too far into their own information ecosystem. Reports from the scene suggest that these protesters sincerely thought that waving a white flag was some magical forcefield of invincibility, or that taping a copy of the bill of rights to your illegally parked truck was a trump card that would leave the cops powerless.
> 
> Police marched in three weeks after the protest began and after the protesters received plenty of warning. Anyone who was genuinely shocked to see them make arrests was so far into the far-right's looking glass of bullshit that they really believed that the cops were with them, that the military would revolt, and that the people would support them. We don't say this in mockery. We say this as warning — many of these people have flown right through their frickin' fail-safe points, folks. We need to understand just how detached from reality they are, because that is a major complicating factor.





> The second point, as _Line_ editor Gerson noted so aptly in our weekly video, is that on top of whatever toll misinformation has taken, it's also clear these protesters were neither politically sophisticated, nor experienced activists. These people have clearly never spent any time around a homeless encampment scheduled for clearing out nor an Idle No More rally that wore out its welcome. Again, the police tactics being used this weekend are pretty measured and controlled, but protesters seemed honestly shocked to be confronted by ... disciplined and measured crowd-control tactics after fair warning to disperse had been given.


A lot of people have been drinking their own bath water and are susceptible to pseudo-legal, possibly FOTL inspired, BS and other propaganda swirling in their social media feeds. This is not good. I fear our leadership is ill equipped to deal with this adequately.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

It used to and did away with it. 


mariomike said:


> Toronto ( 27 horses ) and Hamilton ( 5 horses ) are the only mounted ( non-ceremonial ) patrol units in Ontario.
> 
> Maybe Ottawa will consider a mounted police patrol unit of its own?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Toronto ( 27 horses ) and Hamilton ( 5 horses ) are the only mounted ( non-ceremonial ) patrol units in Ontario.
> 
> Maybe Ottawa will consider a mounted police patrol unit of its own?



Or why doesn't the RCMP?  After all, the stables for the Musical Ride are in Ottawa.  If they want the guidon of light cavalry, they should be able to advance with lances.  That would scatter a crowd. 🎠


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> A good, chewy article from The Line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s called radicalisation.  This is what is happening.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s called radicalisation.  This is what is happening.


People feeling they're being f***ked over, not being heard, being called all sorts of nasty things (even though some say "it's just words"), painted by some as the enemy (or, at the very least, nowhere NEAR as f***ked over as they say they are) ... 

Yeah, a lot of situations like this would lead people to become radicalized.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> After seeing how effective they were, I think that it would be a good idea for many different police forces to look into them


Aye!  They've ay been effective.










						Peterloo: 100 years after the massacre - archive, August 1919
					

How Guardian writers explored the legacy of Peterloo, a century after the day government forces charged a crowd protesting for parliamentary reform, killing 18 and injuring more than 600




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Do we have to relive history?  Or could we perhaps spend more time teaching our kids how we got here?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (20 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> Toronto ( 27 horses ) and Hamilton ( 5 horses ) are the only mounted ( non-ceremonial ) patrol units in Ontario.
> 
> Maybe Ottawa will consider a mounted police patrol unit of its own?


That is an expensive capability.  As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.


----------



## mariomike (20 Feb 2022)

I don't really understand it, but I've seen police horses calm hostile crowds. Difuse the combative dynamics in a positive way. Just by their presence.

I mean, they weigh so much, resistance is futile.

I think most people love police horses. One was killed, and more than 1500 people attended the memorial.



> Dignitaries including Ontario’s Lt. Governor, James Bartleman, Toronto mayor David Miller, and the Toronto Chief of Police Bill Blair were joined by hundreds of police officers and other service personnel, some from as far away as Vancouver, B.C. In addition to an eight-horse honor guard from the Metro Toronto unit, officers and horses from the Kingston, Ontario, and Niagara Regional mounted police, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the Governor General’s Horse Guards also attended.


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2022)

PPCLI Guy said:


> That is an expensive capability.  As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.


As my wife very astutely said, when she had horses she never had to worry about having disposable income.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Fail to plan, plan to fail.
> 
> Ottawa exists because it wasn't Montreal or Kingston.  It was designed to be away from noisy protesters that had demonstrated a willingness to burn politicians and bureaucrats out of their taxpayer funded debating halls.
> 
> ...


I would argue it was chosen as a compromise between Toronto and Montreal, plus it was far away from the US border, which it was felt still had designs on Canada.

Honest question:  Does Speakers Corner have any special status as a protest site or is it just tradition?

Having a designated 'protest site' only works if those so inclined choose to use it, and are not intent on mayhem or disruption, unless you can somehow engineer a Constitutionally valid law that prohibits assembly in certain areas.  If an assembly is peaceful, it can legally happen anywhere.

They had a designated protest site for the G20 in Hunstville; I don't think a single soul used it.  If it is out of the way of the population and media, they're not interested.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

PPCLI Guy said:


> That is an expensive capability.  As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.


So like politicians? 😉


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Or why doesn't the RCMP?  After all, the stables for the Musical Ride are in Ottawa.  If they want the guidon of light cavalry, they should be able to advance with lances.  That would scatter a crowd. 🎠


Totally different type of horse and totally different type of training.  


PPCLI Guy said:


> That is an expensive capability.  As the the partner of an owner of a horse of no special pedigree, I can assure you that they very efficiently turn (a lot of) money into (a lot of) manure.


Ya no kidding, says the former owner of four (ok, two were minis).  People say only rich people own horses; no, they would be rich if they didn't own horses.

It might be something that Ottawa might want to consider but it's a big line item.  Toronto is about $6Mn for 24 horses (I don't know if that includes human staffing costs) and it it gets questioned every single year at budget time.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Feb 2022)

I remember a few years ago during the rail blockades, some provincial governments started to bring in laws to make it illegal to block roads and other infrastructure ( I thought it was already illegal 🤷‍♂️). All the lefties’ heads exploded, saying the right to protest is absolute. It sounds like the right was under that same delusion too. But government inaction in the face of other such disruptions probably made it seem that way.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I remember a few years ago during the rail blockades, some provincial governments started to bring in laws to make it illegal to block roads and other infrastructure ( I thought it was already illegal 🤷‍♂️). All the lefties’ heads exploded, saying the right to protest is absolute. It sounds like the right was under that same delusion too. But government inaction in the face of other such disruptions probably made it seem that way.


Oh, it’ll be that way again, RR.  And we’ll look the other way too when there is more destruction at the Coastal GasLink natural gas facilities…


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I would argue it was chosen as a compromise between Toronto and Montreal, plus it was far away from the US border, which it was felt still had designs on Canada.
> 
> Honest question:  Does Speakers Corner have any special status as a protest site or is it just tradition?
> 
> ...



I can remember driving past Speaker's Corner on a Sunday in the mid sixties with half a dozen end of the world and CND types on soap boxes.  I also remember my father informing me that that was a place where you could go and safely speak your mind.



> Speakers here may talk on any subject, as long as the police consider their speeches lawful, although this right is not restricted to Speakers' Corner only. Contrary to popular belief, there is no immunity from the law, nor are any subjects proscribed, but in practice the police intervene only when they receive a complaint.[1] On some occasions in the past, they have intervened on grounds of profanity.[2]
> 
> Though Hyde Park Speakers' Corner is considered the paved area closest to Marble Arch,[3] legally the public speaking area extends beyond the Reform Tree and covers a large area from Marble Arch to Victoria Gate, then along the Serpentine to Hyde Park Corner and the Broad Walk running from Hyde Park Corner to Marble Arch.[4]
> 
> ...











						Speakers' Corner - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Apparently it has lost some of its appeal with the advent of the internet.

It is one of the pressure relief valves built into the Westminster system.  Better to here them gripe than have them sullen.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Having a designated 'protest site' only works if those so inclined choose to use it, and are not intent on mayhem or disruption, unless you can somehow engineer a Constitutionally valid law that prohibits assembly in certain areas.  If an assembly is peaceful, it can legally happen anywhere.
> 
> They had a designated protest site for the G20 in Hunstville; I don't think a single soul used it.  If it is out of the way of the population and media, they're not interested.




You're right on the use of the site and the willingness to employ it.  However, if Ottawa had had one it could have diverted the stampede into the corral and got the herd out of the streets.  Most of the herd would have followed the truck in front.

With the pressure on the streets managed and the numbers reduced then you can start managing the criminal element - or those that are mistakenly engaged in criminal acts and mischief.

I am unaware of any such pressure management system in Ottawa.  Or, like the spring melt, do they just direct it into the Ottawa River?

As to Huntsville

Huntsville was out of the way so that the politicians wouldn't be bothered.  The demonstration ground also continued that.

Unfortunately for the politicians, and the bureaucrats, as far as I am concerned, part of their job is to be bothered.  Their aggravated constituents need to be seen and heard.





The lower photo is of Hyde Park during George Floyd demonstrations.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I remember a few years ago during the rail blockades, some provincial governments started to bring in laws to make it illegal to block roads and other infrastructure ( I thought it was already illegal 🤷‍♂️). All the lefties’ heads exploded, saying the right to protest is absolute. It sounds like the right was under that same delusion too. But government inaction in the face of other such disruptions probably made it seem that way.


Yea a bunch of uppity taxpayers forgetting their place, taking up sacred protesting grounds from deserving leftists.and not obeying their benevolent overseer class.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

I can find you similar pictures for Westminster and Trafalgar Square, let alone the Mall and Buckingham Palace.

People lying in front of cars.  Buses held up on Westminster Bridge.  The subway stopped.  

People arrested.  Fisticuffs ensue.  Miscreants hauled away.  Never an Emergency Measure in sight.  Much less someone's bank account frozen.  Or their truck confiscated and sold.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

OPS chief is saying financial sanctions will be applied in the months to come against protestors. That seems odd, like the EA is being used as a work around to punish people and less about some kind of state of emergency.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> OPS chief is saying financial sanctions will be applied in the months to come against protestors. That seems odd, like the EA is being used as a work around to punish people and less about some kind of state of emergency.


Oh, so those would be City of Ottawa financial sanctions approved by Ottawa City Council and enforced by Ottawa Police Service, then?


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I can find you similar pictures for Westminster and Trafalgar Square, let alone the Mall and Buckingham Palace.
> 
> People lying in front of cars.  Buses held up on Westminster Bridge.  The subway stopped.
> 
> People arrested.  Fisticuffs ensue.  Miscreants hauled away.  Never an Emergency Measure in sight.  Much less someone's bank account frozen.  Or their truck confiscated and sold.


I'm going to venture a guess and say that these protests didn't turn into occupations that lasted for 3 weeks. 

Would I be right?


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

> February 1974 - Coach carrying soldiers and families in northern England is bombed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA). Twelve people killed, 14 hurt.
> 
> October-November 1974 - Wave of IRA bombs in British pubs kills 28 people and wounds more than 200.
> 
> ...



I leave it to the reader to decide if these were greater or lesser than blowing horns in Ottawa.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I leave it to the reader to decide if these were greater or lesser than blowing horns in Ottawa.


The British experienced things differently back then…


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I'm going to venture a guess and say that these protests didn't turn into occupations that lasted for 3 weeks.
> 
> Would I be right?



No.  They didn't turn into occupations.  The occupiers generally had somewhere to go.

Now, if you want to know what disruption might look like



















						Climate Change: 40 protesters arrested as Extinction Rebellion brings London roads to standstill
					

Several Extinction Rebellion protesters have been arrested for spray painting and laying in the road in Westminster.




					news.sky.com
				




Bash on regardless, mate!


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Course, you might like this one - 19 years plus or minus.









						Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## lenaitch (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> You're right on the use of the site and the willingness to employ it.  However, if Ottawa had had one it could have diverted the stampede into the corral and got the herd out of the streets.  Most of the herd would have followed the truck in front.
> 
> With the pressure on the streets managed and the numbers reduced then you can start managing the criminal element - or those that are mistakenly engaged in criminal acts and mischief.
> 
> ...


Simply from a security standpoint, holding the 'G' conferences in places like Huntsville, Kananaskis and Charlevoix was genius.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Simply from a security standpoint, holding the 'G' conferences in places like Huntsville, Kananaskis and Charlevoix was genius.



And the Fire Marshal and the Police Chief are at odds again.  Lock the door? Or keep it open?

Hide the government?  Or make it face its employers?


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Oh, so those would be City of Ottawa financial sanctions approved by Ottawa City Council and enforced by Ottawa Police Service, then?


I don't think they're bothering with approvals anymore.

I can see people getting pushed, punished, and pissed off to the point where they do turn violent.

The government would slap themselves on the back saying see we told you so, then crank things up even more.

Police and bystanders will be the victims of whatever this segregation is attempting to accomplish.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Simply from a security standpoint, holding the 'G' conferences in places like Huntsville, Kananaskis and Charlevoix was genius.



I go back to my earlier point.  Ottawa needs to plan for demonstrations and handling them with moderation.  

It is not a Monastery.  

It does not belong to the citizens of Bytown.

It is the home of the Parliament of Canada and belongs to us all.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I go back to my earlier point.  Ottawa needs to plan for demonstrations and handling them with moderation.
> 
> It is not a Monastery.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone would argue that. 

But belong to us all does not mean anyone and everyone can occupy it. Protest, let your voices be heard, leave before you overstay your welcome. 

And leave the trucks at home.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I don't think anyone would argue that.
> 
> But belong to us all does not mean anyone and everyone can occupy it. Protest, let your voices be heard, leave before you overstay your welcome.
> 
> And leave the trucks at home.



Make your visitors welcome.  Give them a place to stay.

Most of us out here drive our own fossil fuel vehicles to get from place to place.  

We are short of unicorn farts.


----------



## Altair (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Make your visitors welcome.  Give them a place to stay.
> 
> Most of us out here drive our own fossil fuel vehicles to get from place to place.
> 
> We are short of unicorn farts.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I go back to my earlier point.  Ottawa needs to plan for demonstrations and handling them with moderation.
> 
> It is not a Monastery.
> 
> ...


There are upwards of 250 lawful demonstrations a year in Ottawa.   Why does breaking up an unlawful one translate into Ottawa not being accessible to all?  Because one side that purports to be about law and order can’t fathom that maybe their side didn’t actually follow law and order?  

It was an unlawful protest that was allowed a lot of leeway.  Too much to be honest.   They were given an inch and they took a mile.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Make your visitors welcome.  Give them a place to stay.
> 
> Most of us out here drive our own fossil fuel vehicles to get from place to place.
> 
> We are short of unicorn farts.


It’s called hotels and paid parking.  Not “squat” where you want for as long as you want.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Simply from a security standpoint, holding the 'G' conferences in places like Huntsville, Kananaskis and Charlevoix was genius.


I thought they should have had it I Fort Nelson, BC. Closest other town was 3 hours away, one highway in and out, minimal hotel space (keeps entourages and press herd small) and a town population hostile to left wing anarchist troublemakers.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't think they're bothering with approvals anymore.
> 
> I can see people getting pushed, punished, and pissed off to the point where they do turn violent.
> 
> ...


Actually Jarn, my point was to question why is Interim Ottawa Police Chief Bell describing the use of financial measure against protestors as though it was a police action.  Nice try, Interim Chief Bell - leave implementation of aspects of the Federal Emergencies Act to the Federal Government as communicated by, say the PM or the DPM/Finance Minister, and you just stick to policing and leading your service to be better than it was…


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> OPS chief is saying financial sanctions will be applied in the months to come against protestors. That seems odd, like the EA is being used as a work around to punish people and less about some kind of state of emergency.


He said: "If you are involved in this protest, we will actively look to identify you and follow up with financial sanctions and criminal charges,"

  that could be something as simple as sending them a ticket in the mail for a variety of infractions.  So wouldn’t need to be under the EA.

They’ve filmed, and recorded a pile of stuff in that last few weeks. I’m sure they have months of investigations ahead of them.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> He said: "If you are involved in this protest, we will actively look to identify you and follow up with financial sanctions and criminal charges,"
> 
> that could be something as simple as sending them a ticket in the mail for a variety of infractions.  So wouldn’t need to be under the EA.
> 
> They’ve filmed, and recorded a pile of stuff in that last few weeks. I’m sure they have months of investigations ahead of them.


Police lay charges.  

They don’t implement financial sanctions. Banks do under direction of the Government.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

What are these "financial sanctions"?  Fines upon conviction?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Feb 2022)

You may end up with a lot of this in social media


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Feb 2022)

As a parent I have zero sympathy for her(if its even true)....thats $50 your kid (or kids) should have seen.

POS.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Police lay charges.
> 
> They don’t implement financial sanctions. Banks do under direction of the Government.


When I get a traffic violation the cops give me that not the bank.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2022)

I enjoy so much how this "crisis" has caused people to revert to and highlight their true character.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You may end up with a lot of this in social media
> 
> View attachment 68869


Of course.  And I bet most of it will be fake just like poor Roberta Paulsen dying at yet another protest.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> that could be something as simple as sending them a ticket in the mail for a variety of infractions.  So wouldn’t need to be under the EA.



Do you really believe the chief of police threatening "financial sanctions" is referring to a ticket in the mail?  

Blair said the emergency act will remain as long as the threat remains. Whats the chances of that meaning months and months while the police conduct their thorough investigation?


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Do you really believe the chief of police threatening "financial sanctions" is referring to a ticket in the mail?
> 
> Blair said the emergency act will remain as long as the threat remains. Whats the chances of that meaning months and months while the police conduct their thorough investigation?


Why wouldn’t I.  They have tons of video evidence of plenty of violations.  Licence plates and such.  I imagine they will follow up for months.  If they have footage of criminal activity and can identify the culprits they will lay charges.  None of those things are new.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2022)

Do you consider a fine "financial sanctions"?


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> When I get a traffic violation the cops give me that not the bank.


Okay, I’ll play your deliberately obtuse game then. 

No.  You are being charged with a contravention of a traffic violation, and being given a choice to accept the charge with its associated fine.

You could, if you wish, dispute the charge and attend court to make your case to the justice.  If you were successful, the charge would be dropped and you would also not have to pay the fine. 

Are you able to present an example where a police officer can freeze your bank account, for example?


----------



## QV (20 Feb 2022)

Some people are having trouble hiding their glee for this unprecedented government overreach and abuse.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Are you able to present an example where a police officer can freeze your bank account, for example?



Perhaps when the US threatened sanctions against Russia they meant they were going to send Russia a big fine.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Okay, I’ll play your deliberately obtuse game then.
> 
> No.  You are being charged with a contravention of a traffic violation, and being given a choice to accept the charge with its associated fine.
> 
> ...




I’m not being obtuse. Calm yourself.

Did he say he was freezing accounts?  The OPS chief?  You are making assumptions that that is what he meant.  If a truck was parked illegally for three weeks and left and they found the owner they could send him a ticket or identify someone who illegally lit a fire.  It’s still the lawful authority issuing it to you not the bank.   Any protester is free to fight the tickets they would receive. A fine is still a sanction.  And it just happens to be a financial one.


----------



## YZT580 (21 Feb 2022)

Did you listen to the OW mayor wanting to sell off all the impounded vehicles and deposit the money in the city's account?  Or perhaps the lady in BC who donated 50 when it was legal to do so and now finds that her account has been frozen?  Should those accounts go to OW as well?


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> A fine is still a sanction.  And it just happens to be a financial one.
> 
> View attachment 68870



In the picture you posted it says a sanction is _similar_, just like penance is similar.

Is the OPS going to force protestors to make a penance?


----------



## Quirky (21 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Some people are having trouble hiding their glee for this unprecedented government overreach and abuse.



Canadians have consistently voted for Trudeau and generally share his ideology, at least in significant enough numbers get him elected. Canadians don't vote for Trudeau, Canadians are trudeau. He isn't some weirdo that got elected, he’s the net total of what a Canadian is.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Did you listen to the OW mayor wanting to sell off all the impounded vehicles and deposit the money in the city's account?  Or perhaps the lady in BC who donated 50 when it was legal to do so and now finds that her account has been frozen?  Should those accounts go to OW as well?


The mayor is just spouting off to look good.  If you look at the facts you’ll see that he has no idea how that would work since the owners were given instructions on how to retrieve their vehicles.  The poor lady with no last name and not verified by anything other than Twitter?  I’m not going to lose my mind over that.  

As I mentioned, the class action suit if won will likely seize assets from named protesters.  And vehicles that cannot be reclaimed will certainly end up at auction.  

My point that has been missed is that the OPS acting chief used the word “sanction” and may not actually mean what some people thinks it does or the narrative they are creating for themselves in this case.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Feb 2022)

If I donate enough to the LPC do I get a Papal's Indulgence from persecution?


----------



## mariomike (21 Feb 2022)

For the discussion,


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495448014512664579


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In the picture you posted it says a sanction is _similar_, just like penance is similar.
> 
> Is the OPS going to force protestors to make a penance?


I can’t help you if you don’t have command of the English language.


----------



## dapaterson (21 Feb 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Did you listen to the OW mayor wanting to sell off all the impounded vehicles and deposit the money in the city's account?  Or perhaps the lady in BC who donated 50 when it was legal to do so and now finds that her account has been frozen?  Should those accounts go to OW as well?


Ottawa's mayor is looking to distract from his multitude of failings.

And the Chilliwack woman (per Chuck Strahl) and Sarnia woman (per Marilyn Gladu) with frozen accounts are not yet proven to be related to this action; individuals in precarious financial situations may experience banking interruptions due to overdrafts or other issues - correlation does not necessarily imply causation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I can’t help you if you don’t have command of the English language.



I suppose not.


----------



## QV (21 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> For the discussion,
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495448014512664579


And Bob Rae is not an honest person.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Are you able to present an example where a police officer can freeze your bank account, for example?



It wasn't an individual's bank account, but the freezing of the funds raised in the GiveSendGo campaign pre-dated the financial measures imposed by the Emergencies Act and were the result of action by local and provincial police, the Provincial Asset Forfeiture Unit (PAFU).









						Online fundraising for Ottawa protesters ‘facilitating’ crime, Ottawa police argue in court  | Globalnews.ca
					

Court document explains why funds raised on a U.S.-based crowdfunding campaign were frozen by the Ontario court as offence-related property.




					globalnews.ca
				





> Online fundraising for Ottawa protesters ‘facilitating’ crime, Ottawa police argue in court​A U.S.-based crowdfunding campaign for protesters who have laid siege to parts of Ottawa is “facilitating” crime, police wrote in a court affidavit used to freeze the funds.
> 
> The Ottawa Police Service said the roughly US$9 million raised on GiveSendGo was intended to sustain the protests, and was therefore “facilitating the indictable offence of mischief.”
> 
> ...



It's not much of a stretch to envision that the OPS (thru the PAFU) or Crown may take the steps required under whatever existing legislation to seek seizure  and forfeiture of assets from those involved in criminal activity related to the Ottawa protest convoy.  Just because the EA has imposed additional financial measures doesn't mean that municipal and provincial (and federal) authorities can't use the tools they already had.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Feb 2022)

My wife see the implementation of the Emergency Act and the freezing of funds as reminder of what she lived under in Malaysia, she came here to get away from that stuff, but JT and the Liberals are reminding her far to much of UMNO and how far they were willing to go to hang onto power.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (21 Feb 2022)

And in other "freezing the funds" news (from a couple of days ago).  Ms. Li seems to be a determined young woman, maybe she should have been the Chief of Police.









						Fed up Ottawa residents win secret suit to freeze the crypto wallets funding Canada's 'Freedom Convoy' protestors
					

The suit is unprecedented for the country.




					fortune.com
				





> Fed up Ottawa residents win secret suit to freeze the crypto wallets funding Canada’s ‘Freedom Convoy’ protesters​Yesterday, a group of Ottawa residents won a private class action lawsuit to freeze at least 146 cryptocurrency wallets and bank assets tied to the main organizers of Canada’s “Freedom Convoy” in a bid to stanch funding for the ongoing demonstrations.
> 
> Known as a Mareva injunction, *the lawsuit was filed by Ottawa residents Zexi Li*, Geoffrey Devaney, and the Happy Goat Coffee business against key convoy organizers including Chris Barber, Benjamin Dichter, Tamara Lich, and Nicholas St. Louis. The hearing was held in private without public notice or access, lawyer Paul Champ who represents the residents bringing the suit, told The Star, a Toronto-headquartered Canadian newspaper. Li earlier this month won an injunction which barred protesters from honking their horns in downtown Ottawa.
> 
> ...


----------



## RangerRay (21 Feb 2022)

Ottawa protests: conspiracy theories and accusations of betrayal as police end blockade
					

Large parts of area in capital cleared after more than 191 are arrested and 57 vehicles are towed




					www.theguardian.com
				




A lot of people were sold a bill of goods. 



> “King told protesters the warnings from police weren’t official because they didn’t have signatures on them or that the city didn’t have a police chief so no one could give the order,” said Kurt Phillips of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. “And he was telling this to people who don’t really understand how government works.”











						LILLEY: Cops clear Ottawa streets professionally as protesters, government engage in propaganda
					

Police moved in Saturday to clear the remaining protesters in Ottawa who have occupied the area surrounding Parliament for three weeks.




					torontosun.com
				






> The Battle of Wellington Street took place in a highly charged political environment where each side has made exaggerated claims not backed up by facts. Getting to the truth can be hard, but it is important, so let’s look at some of these claims.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Feb 2022)

Canada Police Report
					

Canada Police Crime News




					www.canadapolicereport.ca
				




Glad to see our National Police Force continuing their trend of acting with the utmost professionalism and class.  🤣


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495513560360927239
Out of curiosity I sought out the group chat tweets.  Riveting stuff!

I really want to seek out the RCMP Musical Ride (the sub-unit these individuals belong to) next time we need some community engagement.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Oh my god you guys. Fines are referred to as “financial sanctions” all the time. Long before this nonsense. A sanction literally means “a punishment”


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> And leave the trucks at home.


Once the LRT is fixed, sure!


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Oh my god you guys. Fines are referred to as “financial sanctions” all the time. Long before this nonsense. A sanction literally means “a punishment”


Yup. I did some more reading, I was wrong about the terminology for financial sanctions. Usually implies severe fines.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/calls-to-arrest-randy-hillier-mpp-after-involvement-ottawa-protest-1.6359028
		


Randy being Randy.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yup. I did some more reading, I was wrong about the terminology for financial sanctions. Usually implies severe fines.


My message was exasperation. It’s just a general hands in the air at what we ve all become. I’ve really got to stay off the internet


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m not being obtuse. Calm yourself.
> 
> Did he say he was freezing accounts?  The OPS chief?  You are making assumptions that that is what he meant.  If a truck was parked illegally for three weeks and left and they found the owner they could send him a ticket or identify someone who illegally lit a fire.  It’s still the lawful authority issuing it to you not the bank.   Any protester is free to fight the tickets they would receive. A fine is still a sanction.  And it just happens to be a financial one.
> 
> View attachment 68870


Oh, sonOttawa Police could have imposed “financial sanctions” aka fines, all along then?  Like, before the EA…got it.



Blackadder1916 said:


> It's not much of a stretch to envision that the OPS (thru the PAFU) or Crown may take the steps required under whatever existing legislation to seek seizure  and forfeiture of assets from those involved in criminal activity related to the Ottawa protest convoy.  Just because the EA has imposed additional financial measures doesn't mean that municipal and provincial (and federal) authorities can't use the tools they already had.


Interesting to see all these financial sanction acts coming out of the woodwork now, noting that Canada isn’t so draconian after all, since the means was there before…we’ll, and pesky court orders. 


Booter said:


> Oh my god you guys. Fines are referred to as “financial sanctions” all the time. Long before this nonsense. A sanction literally means “a punishment”


Interesting.  A good friend in the OPP who spent several years as a Court Service Officer in a Lower Provincial Court said he had never in his time heard of an OHTA fine referred to as ‘a financial sanction.’

So it would seem that I and others like minded individuals are being obtuse when we refer to financial sanctions as a higher level, sweeping mandate that seeks to make wide-reaching and extreme fiscally punitive measures (freezing accounts or confiscating assets) and that there were other quite reasonable and extant means to do so.

#boilingfrog


----------



## mariomike (21 Feb 2022)

From Polling Canada


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495266475996766210


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

For my part in that….above….

Yes.  And still can. Glad you got it. 

No, you and like minded people latched on to one word that OPS acting chief said and forgot what active listening is and then made a whole bunch of strings on a map taped to wall about how this means the EA will be stretched on for months.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> No, you and like minded people latched on to one word that OPS acting chief said and forgot what active listening is and then made a whole bunch of strings on a map taped to wall about how this means the EA will be stretched on for months.



Bill Blair said the federal government will continue to implement never-before-used powers under the Emergencies Act as long as they are required to help end the illegal blockade of the national capital. 

The final protestors are being rounded up, so the EA should be shut down in a few weeks, right? 

But in an interview with The West Block’s Mercedes Stephenson, Blair gave no timeline or criteria on when those measures could be lifted, saying that a “threat still exists.“

Pretty ambiguous wouldn't you say? So long as "a threat is out there" we need the emergency act in place.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Canada Police Report
> 
> 
> Canada Police Crime News
> ...



What kind of statements were the RCMP officers making?


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Bill Blair said the federal government will continue to implement never-before-used powers under the Emergencies Act as long as they are required to help end the illegal blockade of the national capital.
> 
> The final protestors are being rounded up, so the EA should be shut down in a few weeks, right?
> 
> ...


I don’t know if the EA is going to be extended or not.  It should never have been enacted in the first place  But I’m not going to base that on a word that a local acting police chief used.    That is the point I was trying to get across.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Oh, sonOttawa Police could have imposed “financial sanctions” aka fines, all along then?  Like, before the EA…got it.
> 
> 
> Interesting to see all these financial sanction acts coming out of the woodwork now, noting that Canada isn’t so draconian after all, since the means was there before…we’ll, and pesky court orders.
> ...


It’s entirely possible that the chief meant the financial portions of the governments response. He could also just be using an entirely normal part of court terminology; or it could be both. Or neither.

Your court friend has a terrible memory on this- in passing conversation perhaps. It’s a totally normal thing to hear fines included in court sanctions and have a judge or Justice refer to a financial sanction. It’s also normal in civil and family court.

It’s not outlandish to associate any mention of finances right now to the EA since the big actions are freezing accounts. And to be honest I’ve never seen anything like it so I don’t know what the hell any one means when they mention something.

I think the thing is the concepts and things we are seeing are larger macro things that don’t need people being laser focussed on individual words from an OPS chief- he more than likely is also learning the EA as he goes.

Police executives are not nimble legal experts. They are generalists and in most cities, in my experience with police leadership and executives, they are political Animals to their vocabulary rather than tacticians or lawyers. I would expect a place like Ottawa to be even more so. 🤷‍♀️

It is my opinion, that the EA wasn’t necessary and was an odd escalation. I have a personal belief that this was an attempt to look like the federal government was doing something- because they are, in my opinion, obsessed with appearing like they are acting. I think they don’t understand the Pandora’s box that such things open- and they aren’t thinking a year Down the road when the next protest happens- both sides will see the effective strategies from this and it may change the face of protest here in the future- and if it does will we use the EA on a seasonal basis?


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> What kind of statements were the RCMP officers making?


Justin Ling broke a story about this.  I haven’t seen the entire thing but apparently someone was communicating police movements and such to convoy types.  One operation had to be scrubbed when they found out.   Again, grain of salt as this was in the Twitter verse.   But Ling has been doing some decent reporting.


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> What kind of statements were the RCMP officers making?



What I saw had supposed RCMP members gleefully excited to visit violence on the protesters.   And hoping it didn't end before they got their punches in.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> And in other "freezing the funds" news (from a couple of days ago).  Ms. Li seems to be a determined young woman, maybe she should have been the Chief of Police.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the “while I do not support the convoy protesters *stated goals and methods, I wonder how things like this seem legitimate?” department:




> Yesterday, a group of Ottawa residents won a private class action lawsuit to freeze at least 146 cryptocurrency wallets and bank assets tied to the main organizers of Canada’s “Freedom Convoy” in a bid to stanch funding for the ongoing demonstrations.
> 
> 
> Known as a Mareva injunction, the lawsuitwas filed by Ottawa residents Zexi Li, Geoffrey Devaney, and the Happy Goat Coffee business against key convoy organizers including Chris Barber, Benjamin Dichter, Tamara Lich, and Nicholas St. Louis. *The hearing was held in private without public notice or access*, lawyer Paul Champ who represents the residents bringing the suit, told The Star, a Toronto-headquartered Canadian newspaper. Li earlier this month won an injunction which barred protesters from honking their hornsin downtown Ottawa.
> ...


So private court case, defendants not advised prior to court hearing, no discovery, etc. and as written, seems to imply that the 24-hour period granted by the Courts for defendants to make case to the plaintiff(s) to secure reasonable funds for living expenses and legal representation was not provided.  Interesting times.


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Bill Blair said the federal government will continue to implement never-before-used powers under the Emergencies Act as long as they are required to help end the illegal blockade of the national capital.
> 
> The final protestors are being rounded up, so the EA should be shut down in a few weeks, right?
> 
> ...


Blair's banned assault-style firearms amnesty expires in 71 days.  The prospect of tens of thousands of Canadian owning hundreds of thousands of dangerous banned firearms would constitute a continuing threat, n'est ce pas?  Some may even be unvaccinated!


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> In the “while I do not support the convoy protesters stayed goals and methods, I wonder how things like this seem legitimate?” department:
> 
> 
> 
> So private court case, defendants not advised prior to court hearing, no discovery, etc. and as written, seems to imply that the 24-hour period granted by the Courts for defendants to make case to the plaintiff(s) to secure reasonable funds for living expenses and legal representation was not provided.  Interesting times.


Closer to being the “proletariat “ than we realize. I certainly hope this is tossed out in open court


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So private court case, defendants not advised prior to court hearing, no discovery, etc. and as written, seems to imply that the 24-hour period granted by the Courts for defendants to make case to the plaintiff(s) to secure reasonable funds for living expenses and legal representation was not provided.  Interesting times.



If the government wanted to shut down various forms of cryptocurrency enacting the EA would be a great way to get started. It would certainly explains the odd timing and use.


----------



## Scott (21 Feb 2022)

rnkelly said:


> Oh man, it was awesome when Nardwuar the human serviette questioned Chrétien on pepper spray. Those were the days…


For me, pepper, I put it on my plate.


----------



## FSTO (21 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Blair's banned assault-style firearms amnesty expires in 71 days.  The prospect of tens of thousands of Canadian owning hundreds of thousands of dangerous banned firearms would constitute a continuing threat, n'est ce pas?  Some may even be unvaccinated!


Blair seems to be no different than Julian Fantino. What is it with former Toronto Police Chiefs? Power hungry dilatants.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Blair's banned assault-style firearms amnesty expires in 71 days.  The prospect of tens of thousands of Canadian owning hundreds of thousands of dangerous banned firearms would constitute a continuing threat, n'est ce pas?  Some may even be unvaccinated!


Thinking the EA just saved the government a billion dollars on payouts?



Halifax Tar said:


> What I saw had supposed RCMP members gleefully excited to visit violence on the protesters.   And hoping it didn't end before they got their punches in.



Appears you're right.

I don't see anything wrong with the police being excited about hurting the protestors. 2/3rds of Canadians supported violence being used after all. They even wanted the army called in. The police were just getting themselves psyched up for what the citizens wanted from them.


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Thinking the EA just saved the government a billion dollars on payouts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a sad commentary.  But it's true.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> In the “while I do not support the convoy protesters stayed goals and methods, I wonder how things like this seem legitimate?” department:
> 
> 
> 
> So private court case, defendants not advised prior to court hearing, no discovery, etc. and as written, seems to imply that the 24-hour period granted by the Courts for defendants to make case to the plaintiff(s) to secure reasonable funds for living expenses and legal representation was not provided.  Interesting times.


I think the article is being a bit dramatic.  I'm certainly no expert on civil law, but injunction hearings are typically ex parte (a defendant doesn't get to argue against - much like an application for a search warrant on the criminal side).  I can only assume that, once served, you can go to court to argue against it.

The plaintiffs didn't "win a lawsuit"; they got a court order that intends prevent the assets from being dissipated, hidden, etc. before final adjudication of civil suit.

According to the Internet, this is only unprecedented because it is first time a Mareva injunction has been used in relation to cryptocurrency; otherwise, they have been used numerous times to freeze assets prior to final adjudication.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Bill Blair said the federal government will continue to implement never-before-used powers under the Emergencies Act as long as they are required to help end the illegal blockade of the national capital.
> 
> The final protestors are being rounded up, so the EA should be shut down in a few weeks, right?
> 
> ...


I’m sure that what Bill Blair ‘meant’ to say was “the EA will continue as long as Parliament votes for its continuation, through as many ‘Continuations of Declaration’ as the Government puts to Parliament for voting, per s.21 of the Emergencies Act - Revocation, Continuation or Amendment of Declaration. 

ie. government respecting Parliament’s representation of the Canadian citizenry.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't see anything wrong with the police being excited about hurting the protestors. 2/3rds of Canadians supported violence being used after all. They even wanted the army called in. The police were just getting themselves psyched up for what the citizens wanted from them.


Certainly bad form to do or say it publicly.  It might be similar to psyching up for the big game in the locker room or making sure everybody is on top of their game for what might be before them, but police are supposed to be the impartial servant of the law and defender of public safety.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Certainly bad form to do or say it publicly.  It might be similar to psyching up for the big game in the locker room or making sure everybody is on top of their game for what might be before them, but police are supposed to be the impartial servant of the law and defender of public safety.


To ensure I understand what you’re saying, do you mean that the bad part of this was that they said it via a means that was (eventually) accessible by the public?  For me, my concern is that it seems to indicate a cultural issue, especially when one of the images is that of jackboots stomping citizens - I can’t be the only person associating the image of jackboots with Nazi soldiers…


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Anyone who said they have ever been in a fight as a group or otherwise that in this thread says they have never talked with bravado or negative terms about the people on the other side is completely out of touch. Especially from any combat arms types.

The comments are stupid, offensive, dumb. But they are from kids about to go into having things thrown at them ranging from potentially jugs or piss to people trying to light them on fire. They would have been briefed on the seizure at coutts, the axes in BC, and the unknowns. 

It’s bluster and nonsense. Harmful to the public image. Stupid. Completely worthy of conduct charges and a quick resolution.

But it’s also entirely not shocking. And anyone who says otherwise is sheltered and has never stepped into the unknown. 

Old ladies and walkers, peaceful protest or otherwise. 

They like overtime. They have been asked to do something operational for the first time in years. Some of them are nervous.

Take 8 hours of pay from them and move on


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Take 8 hours of pay from them and move on


You mean like a ‘financial sanction?’ 😆


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Lol you’re taking the piss now

But In the conduct measure guide they are referred to as “sanctions- forfeiture of pay” 😎


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)




----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> It’s bluster and nonsense. Harmful to the public image. Stupid. Completely worthy of conduct charges and a quick resolution.



It took a while for the CAF to realize that sometimes stupid comments and behavior are indicative of deeper cultural issues.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Oh you solved that? You’ve made it so they won’t make the other side “less” so they can use force against them and do the nasty things we ask them to do from our couch’s? You solved scared young people talking big?

And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. These are musical ride members. They have their own reputations- which isn’t being real go getters and bat swingers.

That isn’t to say you couldn’t be right. I shouldn’t be so dismissive.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Oh you solved that? You’ve made it so they won’t make the other side “less” so they can use force against them and do the nasty things we ask them to do from our couch’s? You solved scared young people talking big?
> 
> And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. These are musical ride members. They have their own reputations- which isn’t being real go getters and bat swingers.
> 
> That isn’t to say you couldn’t be right. I shouldn’t be so dismissive.



It's a work in progress, we're pretty terrible (you'll hardly find someone more critical of the CAF here than me). You know what didn't help us though? Normalizing that behavior and passing it off as kids being kids, or kids being scared of something.

The kids you're referring to are adults who are professionally trained, federal law enforcement officers.  Officers who are expected to be the example of good citizens and who make life or death choices for themselves and especially for the civilians on the other end of their hollow points. Call me naive but when I think of the RCMP I think the best and brightest we have to be officers. I compare them to the CANSOF of the CAF.

Honestly if the musical ride members "have their own reputations" then maybe they should take their horses and go put on a parade instead of dealing with other human beings, especially in such a volatile environment. But like I said, Canadians wanted violence so we can hardly get upset when the police talk about giving them what they're asking for.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> It's a work in progress, we're pretty terrible (you'll hardly find someone more critical of the CAF here than me). You know what didn't help us though? Normalizing that behavior and passing it off as kids being kids, or kids being scared of something.
> 
> The kids you're referring to are adults who are professionally trained, federal law enforcement officers.  Officers who are expected to be the example of good citizens and who make life or death choices for themselves and especially for the civilians on the other end of their hollow points. Call me naive but when I think of the RCMP I think the best and brightest we have to be officers. I compare them to the CANSOF of the CAF.
> 
> Honestly if the musical ride members "have their own reputations" then maybe they should take their horses and go put on a parade instead of dealing with other human beings, especially in such a volatile environment. But like I said, Canadians wanted violence so we can hardly get upset when the police talk about giving them what they're asking for.


I don’t know if I’d consider the RCMP as the CANSOF of policing.  Parts of it yes.   But I compare the RCMP to the CAF.   It’s the CAF of policing.  It has its high speed low drag units and groups, it’s average police officer and yes it’s slack and idle mouth breathers.  

Every organisation has its screw ups and problem children.  Even the elite ones.  They just screw up at a more elite level.   (Someone I know in an elite org once told me that).


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Anyone who said they have ever been in a fight as a group or otherwise that in this thread says they have never talked with bravado or negative terms about the people on the other side is completely out of touch. Especially from any combat arms types.
> 
> The comments are stupid, offensive, dumb. But they are from kids about to go into having things thrown at them ranging from potentially jugs or piss to people trying to light them on fire. They would have been briefed on the seizure at coutts, the axes in BC, and the unknowns.
> 
> ...


I generally agree with you.  My anger at this was more from the perspective of firstly INFOSEC/OPSEC and my second issue was the "strategic corporal" effect.

Needless to say, the Canadian Security Establishment both Military/Police need to get a lot better at this.

If they were troops under my command and given the gravity of the situation on the ground, I would consider it an aggravating factor when I decided on what disciplinary steps to take.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> ... And to be honest I’ve never seen anything like it so I don’t know what the hell any one means when they mention something.



A lot of that going around these days

Some right wing, crypto fascist commentators









						We Are Experiencing Definitional Collapse
					

To return to a theme. For me, the moment that seemed to pierce reality, Don Delillo in real life, was when anarchists protested in favor of mask mandates. Children in black hoodies who wave the anarchist flag fight for the government and its right to override individual choice. They do not do so...




					freddiedeboer.substack.com
				






			https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/02/18/russell_brand_there_is_a_whole_class_of_media_professionals_that_dislike_ordinary_working_people.html
		










						Bill Maher Is America’s Most Important Conservative Voice
					

The self-identified “old-school liberal” is calling out today’s illiberal, intolerant left.



					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

I'm happy that it took a group of largely non BIPOC being on the receiving end of excessive force to get a lot of people talking about the standards of policing. 

#allies


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

Meanwhile, in Jacinda's paradise









						Protesters outside Parliament 'disappointed' over no meeting with Cabinet ministers
					

A combined statement from groups of protesters at Parliament grounds says they are "disappointed" that a letter sent to the government on Monday asking for talks has been "ignored".




					www.rnz.co.nz
				












						New Zealand plays 'Macarena' on repeat to flush out protesters
					

New Zealand's Parliament Speaker Trevor Mallard has come up with a new plan to make anti-pandemic restrictions protesters uncomfortable: using a sound system to blast out vaccine messages, decades-old Barry Manilow songs and the 1990s earworm hit 'Macarena' on a repeat loop.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Reality and the Left – A Bitter Divorce | The Daily Blog
					






					thedailyblog.co.nz
				






> WHERE IS REALITY HIDING amidst all these claims and counter-claims concerning the protest encampment in Parliament Grounds? In an excruciatingly post-modern political moment, reality seems to have gone AWOL, leaving behind only a noisy collection of competing narratives.
> 
> To make matters worse, the state itself, supposedly the supreme arbiter of what is and is not politically real, is refusing to do its job. Even though it is his sworn duty, the Commissioner of Police, Andrew Coster, has made it frighteningly clear to the public that he lacks both the will and the means to assert the state’s authority. The New Zealand Defence Force, meanwhile, holds itself aloof from the fray. Jacinda Ardern and Christopher Luxon, powerless to intervene, look on ineffectually. The crisis deepens.
> 
> ...



"They don't think like normal people" said an acquaintance years ago.

And that is where we are now.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Feb 2022)

As far as The Post Millenial is to be believed, more on the woman with the walker








						Woman trampled by Trudeau’s forces during freedom protest identified as Indigenous elder
					

Sero reportedly suffered a broken clavicle from the trampling.




					thepostmillennial.com


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

That’s a stupidly-titled article by-line.   I’m not a fan of Trudeau’s contribution to the melée, but this title is foolish demonization.  Too bad Mel Lastman wasn’t alive, then we could blame it on him, since he funded the TPS Mounted Unit when he was mayor of Toronto…


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> As far as The Post Millenial is to be believed, more on the woman with the walker
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to say that she isn't, but I also know that Tamara Lich said she was Metis and the Metis said hell no she wasn't.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> I'm not going to say that she isn't, but I also know that Tamara Lich said she was Metis and the Metis said hell no she wasn't.


Despite what the title of the article says.  I did see other sources that had similar info on a broken clavicle, video of her leaving the hospital and the fact hat she is Mohawk.    I have no reason not to believe those things.  She’s apparently 49.   

There were some FN people at the protest. So it isn’t impossible that she is what she claims to be. 

It’s the other garbage about being dead etc etc that was the issue.  

Her niece probably had the best advice.  “Now stay away from the horses.”


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> To ensure I understand what you’re saying, do you mean that the bad part of this was that they said it via a means that was (eventually) accessible by the public?  For me, my concern is that it seems to indicate a cultural issue, especially when one of the images is that of jackboots stomping citizens - I can’t be the only person associating the image of jackboots with Nazi soldiers…


To be clear, I was making a general statement.  I couldn't see what the alleged comments or statements were, other than the Force was concerned with them or some of them (it is entirely possible it was my inability to access the social media link - anybody that knows me would understand).  I don't even know if they were made by members on or about to be on the line or by a 'cheering section' using their thumbs.

Stupid or inappropriate comments are always stupid or inappropriate.  I never cease to be surprised how some people, who should really know better, both from an ethical and technological perspective, get completely brain dead when it come to beaking off on social media.  The police community, like the CAF, is large and diverse, and it would be disingenuous to expect that all members are shining 'poster boys' for their organization.

Several years ago, we had a NCO caught on media camera saying 'whack 'em and stack 'em' just as they were deploying to a strike line.  His career took a turn.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Feb 2022)

I anticipate the Emergency Act passing the vote today when the NDP supports it.  

Politically, I find this entire saga very interesting in that it shows the inherent strength of the Liberal Party and their ability to play both sides of the fence.

A bunch of NDP MPs have spoken out about the support but Jagmeet thinks it's more dangerous to concede to the Right Wing than it is to support the legislation.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> As far as The Post Millenial is to be believed, more on the woman with the walker
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe she is, maybe she isn't (to me, she looks like she is Aboriginal).  The key point is 'so what'.  The events were either justified or not, regardless of the heritage of the players.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

Conservatives up 10 points under Bergen: Mainstreet poll
					

The federal Conservative party has shot up in the polls since Candice Bergen took over as interim leader and moved the party back to the right, according to new data from Mainstreet Research. Bergen took over earlier this month after the Tory caucus voted to remove Erin O’Toole, who failed to...




					ipolitics.ca


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Thinking the EA just saved the government a billion dollars on payouts?


Colour me paranoid, but I started noticing the "strengthening gun control" ads returning to TV just as this whole Wellington Street goat rodeo was ramping up.  Then, rumbings of an RFA to the CAF followed by whispers about invoking the EA.  As I posted in the "Gun Control 2.0" thread, were the Liberals using these TV ads to shape the battlespace for eventually using the intended-all-along EA to seize all the banned guns once the amnesty expires?

Nothing surprises me anymore. We will have our answer in the next 71 days.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

More Canadians strongly oppose Emergencies Act: Mainstreet poll
					

The percentage of Canadians who support the federal government’s use of the Emergencies Act is nearly the same as the percentage who oppose it — but slightly more are against it, according to new polling by Mainstreet Research. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked the Act for the first time in...




					ipolitics.ca


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> More Canadians strongly oppose Emergencies Act: Mainstreet poll
> 
> 
> The percentage of Canadians who support the federal government’s use of the Emergencies Act is nearly the same as the percentage who oppose it — but slightly more are against it, according to new polling by Mainstreet Research. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked the Act for the first time in...
> ...


The only Canadians that matter right now are the ones who will vote on this later today. It will be a whipped vote and the measure will pass, despite what their constituents may really want.


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> More Canadians strongly oppose Emergencies Act: Mainstreet poll
> 
> 
> The percentage of Canadians who support the federal government’s use of the Emergencies Act is nearly the same as the percentage who oppose it — but slightly more are against it, according to new polling by Mainstreet Research. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoked the Act for the first time in...
> ...


Strongly oppose-39
Strongly support- 38
Somewhat support-13
Somewhat oppose-5

39+5= 44

38+13=51


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The only Canadians that matter right now are the ones who will vote on this later today. It will be a whipped vote and the measure will pass, despite what their consituents may really want.


That poll shows more Canadians support it than oppose it.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

Just some food for thought - Crowd control poorly managed by the government of the day.  Battles won.









						Boston Massacre - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Peterloo Massacre - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Jallianwala Bagh massacre - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Bloody Sunday (1972) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> That poll shows more Canadians support it than oppose it.



True.

Somewhat support-13
Somewhat oppose-5
Don't know-6

So the middle is 24% with 39% and 38% taking strong positions in opposition to each other.

My read on that poll is that the middle is disturbingly small.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> That poll shows more Canadians support it than oppose it.


That’s not what he said.  It said more strongly oppose.  But yes.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Just some food for thought - Crowd control poorly managed by the government of the day.  Battles won.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Battle for Wellington St.

casualties: Bouncy Castle x1, Hot tub x 1, Roberta Paulsen x 1-1.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> True.
> 
> Somewhat support-13
> Somewhat oppose-5
> ...


Statistically very close using that metric.


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> That poll shows more Canadians support it than oppose it.


My point was that it doesn't matter what Canadians want during a whipped vote.


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> My point was that it doesn't matter what Canadians want during a whipped vote.


It's been a long time since politics has been about what Canadians want.


----------



## Furniture (21 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> True.
> 
> Somewhat support-13
> Somewhat oppose-5
> ...


Almost as if some have intentionally been driving a wedge between people for political gain, with little regard to what that does long term.


----------



## mariomike (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Too bad Mel Lastman wasn’t alive, then we could blame it on him, since he funded the TPS Mounted Unit when he was mayor of Toronto…



The TPS Mounted Unit was created in 1886...



Remius said:


> Her niece probably had the best advice.  “Now stay away from the horses.”


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Feb 2022)

Another observation:

It's apparent from watching the footage that they had to fly in Police from across the Country to deal with the Ottawa situation.

Quite clear to me that had this thing gotten any bigger, they would have potentially been unable to control it, especially if more blockades had cropped up simultaneously.


----------



## GK .Dundas (21 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The TPS Mounted Unit was created in 1886...


I hadn't realised he was quite that old....😉


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Another observation:
> 
> It's apparent from watching the footage that they had to fly in Police from across the Country to deal with the Ottawa situation.
> 
> Quite clear to me that had this thing gotten any bigger, they would have potentially been unable to control it, especially if more bloackades has cropped up simultaneously.


Oh yes. Ottawa police is not big enough to deal with situations like this. 

So there will need to be some sort of QRF for police set up, likely using the SQ as well as OPP to reinforce them, or they will need to get significantly bigger relatively quickly.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Feb 2022)

Easy thought experiment is to imagine what you think might have happened if this was essentially an indigenous protest: what the politicians would have said, how they would have responded, whether or not emergency measures would have been deployed (eg. "for the first time we're doing it, and it's against aboriginals"), where public opinions would sit, how people would look upon comments by people responsible for enforcement.

The core of the "emergency" being over, surely the measures will be withdrawn.  Media could be a big help holding governments' feet to the fire, assuming they're not preoccupied with scoring small-beer points against people like Kenney and Ford.


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Another observation:
> 
> It's apparent from watching the footage that they had to fly in Police from across the Country to deal with the Ottawa situation.
> 
> Quite clear to me that had this thing gotten any bigger, they would have potentially been unable to control it, especially if more bloackades has cropped up simultaneously.


It pushed our national policing resources to the brink. It's entirely possible any bigger and either A) the caf would of been called in, or B we would of seen a massive mobile force of officers traveling around the country to systematically deal with each illigal protest one at a time.


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Easy thought experiment is to imagine what you think might have happened if this was essentially an indigenous protest: what the politicians would have said, how they would have responded, whether or not emergency measures would have been deployed (eg. "for the first time we're doing it, and it's against aboriginals"), where public opinions would sit, how people would look upon comments by people responsible for enforcement.
> 
> The core of the "emergency" being over, surely the measures will be withdrawn.  Media could be a big help holding governments' feet to the fire, assuming they're not preoccupied with scoring small-beer points against people like Kenney and Ford.


I think any group trying to occupy a city center and being extremely loud while doing so would not have public support for very long. 

Probably why first nations have stuck to protesting near their traditional lands.


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> It pushed our national policing resources to the brink. It's entirely possible any bigger and either A) the caf would of been called in, or B we would of seen a massive mobile force of officers traveling around the country to systematically deal with each illigal protest one at a time.


I don't think it pushed the national policing resources to the brink.

I think bigger police forces could have probably dealt with it, Toronto or Montreal. 

What the convoy played on was jurisdiction. They overwhelmed Ottawa police, and once that happened its a matter of who is left to clean up the mess. Sloly called for 1800 extra officers, more than the entire police force of Ottawa, and definitely more than the frontline officers of the entire Ottawa police force, and that seemed to be slow in coming. It in fact didn't seem to happen until after the EA. And with the components of the SQ joining in, far outside their jurisdiction, it begs the question if it could have happened within Ontario alone at all. 

So this country has more than enough police to deal with things like this, its just a matter of organizing all of them to be able to deal with things like this in a far swifter manner and hopefully without having to resort to things like the EA. 

I think its reasonable for provincial police forces and the national police force to have a QRF in place in case this happens again.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> The TPS Mounted Unit was created in 1886...


Mel Lastman wasn’t alive in 1886.

Perhaps you didn’t read my post accurately?

I said:


> …he funded the TPS Mounted Unit when he was mayor of Toronto…



…not “founded”…


----------



## mariomike (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Mel Lastman wasn’t alive in 1886.
> 
> Perhaps you didn’t read my post accurately?
> 
> ...



I read it.

If your intent was to involve Mayor Lastman in the discussion...


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> I read it.
> 
> If your intent was to get in a crack about Mayor Lastman...


No, actually…it was using him [Lastman] as an oblique reference to make the case for why the Post Millennial article was particularly poorly titled as though to lay blame for the horse incident directly on Trudeau.  

To wit:


> That’s a stupidly-titled article by-line. I’m not a fan of Trudeau’s contribution to the melée, but this title is foolish demonization. Too bad Mel Lastman wasn’t alive, then we could blame it on him, since he funded the TPS Mounted Unit when he was mayor of Toronto…



Sentence 1. Main complaint. 
Sentence 2. Cutting the PM some slack.
Sentence 3. Pitching an absurd extension of the papers’ crappy basis article title to reinforce points made in Sentences 1 & 2.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Feb 2022)

Thinking on later today, I suppose the NDP will vote with the LPC.  Most protests in this country originate on the "left", not the "right".  However, I don't expect Singh et al to take the long view.


----------



## mariomike (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> No, actually…it was using him [Lastman] as an oblique reference to make the case for why the Post Millennial article was particularly poorly titled as though to lay blame for the horse incident directly on Trudeau.
> 
> To wit:
> 
> ...



I really misunderstood the point you were making! Sorry.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Thinking on later today, I suppose the NDP will vote with the LPC.  Most protests in this country originate on the "left", not the "right".  However, I don't expect Singh et al to take the long view.


…but they won’t hesitate to walk it back when the next protest is left not right based…



😉


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …but they won’t hesitate to walk it back when the next protest is left not right based…
> 
> View attachment 68889
> 
> 😉


Maybe speaking of attacking pipeline workers? I reckon the NDP is ok with that


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …but they won’t hesitate to walk it back when the next protest is left not right based…
> 
> View attachment 68889
> 
> 😉


I think what this has shown us is how tuned into their "teams" political parties are.

First nations railroad protests. LPC and NDP are sympathetic, CPC and PPC are critical.

Anti mandate truckers protests. LPC and NDP are critical, CPC and PPC are sympathetic.

And for those who think it's just the LPC playing wedge politics for short term political gain...everyone is doing it.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Maybe speaking of attacking pipeline workers? I reckon the NDP is ok with that


That one certainly came to mind, OS.

To appreciate the influence of external funding, whether what some might call ‘eco-terrorists’ or others using terms less extreme, those who take the time to read a statement of the Wet’suwet’en leaders on the violence associated with Coastal GasLink protests published in the National Post this December, will find it interesting.  









						Opinion: We are Wet'suwet'en and the Coastal GasLink pipeline protesters do not represent us
					

We want the protesters to cease their blockades and stop misleading people




					nationalpost.com
				




It will be interesting to see if the Federal Government pursues foreign-funded eco-terrorists with the EA, or just the vanilla Anti-Terrorism Act…or at all… 🤔


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …but they won’t hesitate to walk it back when the next protest is left not right based…


... as will many folks now worried about police over-reaction with the current protest ...


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> That one certainly came to mind, OS.
> 
> To appreciate the influence of external funding, whether what some might call ‘eco-terrorists’ or others using terms less extreme, those who take the time to read a statement of the Wet’suwet’en leaders on the violence associated with Coastal GasLink protests published in the National Post this December, will find it interesting.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure where it stands.  But I know a lot of  environmental “charities” had their status revoke over funding political activities. 

I mentioned this before, and I say this as a non expert and only casual observer of foreign funded terrorism, I think that these groups have very sophisticated (or should I say not very sophisticated) ways of “funding”.   Making it much harder to track.  Cash transactions?  Maybe.  Not as easy as an internet banking trail.  Better laundering?  Maybe as well.  They’ve been at the game longer than the extreme right has in that regard. 

I stand to be corrected or informed though.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Post Millennial, Rebel news, and Fox news seem to be the only stations mentioning the story about the RCMPs chat group.


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You may end up with a lot of this in social media
> 
> View attachment 68869



Oopsy...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495767829362192390


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Post Millennial, Rebel news, and Fox news seem to be the only stations mentioning this story.


CBC and CTV have both covered it.  They have her name her age and her leaving the hospital with her niece. They are covering it more from the misinformation angle though.

I think that as much as people learned what not to do from Ottawa with protesters, I think they will also study how they managed to clear them with minimal altercations, damage and injuries.

Only 2 SIU investigations so far from one of the largest police operations in recent history is actually pretty good.  And one of those investigations is on a complaint with no witnesses or reported injury so far. 

I’m sure more will come out maybe but from all accounts acting police chief can be proud of how he handled this.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Oopsy...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495767829362192390


Lol.  I’m not sure that’s legit either.  It funny though. Especially the comments. Especially when someone posted a pic of her and she said she didn’t wear glasses.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> CBC and CTV have both covered it.  They have her name her age and her leaving the hospital with her niece. They are covering it more from the misinformation angle though.


Got my quotes messed up. I was meaning to respond to the RCMP chat group.


What I found really disgusting about the woman trampled under the horse was that it appeared to me protestors were almost celebrating that she was rumored to have died. Seemed like they were angling an aha moment against the government.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (21 Feb 2022)

Why can Quebec stop the Truckers with thier police but Ottawa can't without the Emergency Measures Act?


This will pass tonight.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Just like I said. Lots of potential threats out there. We're not safe so long as a single semi-truck is on the road, so we better keep the EA going for the safety of Canadians.


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Just like I said. Lots of potential threats out there. We're not safe so long as a single semi-truck is on the road, so we better keep the EA going for the safety of Canadians.


No one needs a an full semi automatic assault truck, there you go


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> No one needs a an full semi automatic assault truck, there you go


That’s the Batmobile.  Batman needs it.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> No one needs a an full semi automatic assault truck, there you go


Trucks should have their transmissions pinned at 5 speeds…


----------



## RangerRay (21 Feb 2022)

Hypocrisy is corrosive to the rule of law. 









						Canada needs to rediscover its commitment to the rule of law - The Hub
					

We seemed to have reached a point where protest is a carte blanche, hypocrisy is the boring norm, and the rule of law is rhetoric.




					thehub.ca


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Trucks should have their transmissions pinned at 5 speeds…


How many forward and reverse?  Will certain provinces be able to have trucks with more forward speeds than others?


----------



## KevinB (21 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> How many forward and reverse?  Will certain provinces be able to have trucks with more forward speeds than others?


Only if it was made in China apparently...


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Only if it was made in China apparently...


Norinco makes trucks?


----------



## KevinB (21 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Norinco makes trucks?


Norinco makes everything it is a state factory...








						Norinco - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



 They do Blood Diamond deals and work with a lot of less than stellar governments --


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Norinco makes everything it is a state factory...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, why haven't we replaced the LSVW yet?


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m sure more will come out maybe but from all accounts acting police chief can be proud of how he handled this.


I said to my better half "maybe they should hire him as the new chief"


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Another observation:
> 
> It's apparent from watching the footage that they had to fly in Police from across the Country to deal with the Ottawa situation.


I have a question regarding police officers from outside Ontario and that is in regard to jurisdiction? 

My understanding was that city/municipal police only had police powers in their city/municipality and provincial police forces only had powers in their respective province. 

So what powers do these outside police officers have when operating in Ontario?


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Feb 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> I have a question regarding police officers from outside Ontario and that is in regard to jurisdiction?
> 
> My understanding was that city/municipal police only had police powers in their city/municipality and provincial police forces only had powers in their respective province.
> 
> So what powers do these outside police officers have when operating in Ontario?


Normally none as far as I know. The Emergencies Act apparently says you can take police from another jurisdiction and employ them as police. 

I am sure an LEO will clarify this.


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Feb 2022)

I thought this garnered a chuckle lol


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Normally none as far as I know. The Emergencies Act apparently says you can take police from another jurisdiction and employ them as police.
> 
> I am sure an LEO will clarify this.


I _think _that normally LEOs outside their jurisdiction need to be deputized.  But again, and I’m not sure, the EA expedites that or skips the need altogether. 

But I’m sure we’ll be corrected on our assumptions.


----------



## KevinB (21 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> I _think _that normally LEOs outside their jurisdiction need to be deputized.  But again, and I’m not sure, the EA expedites that or skips the need altogether.
> 
> But I’m sure we’ll be corrected on our assumptions.


Generally hot pursuit allows LE to enter another jurisdiction when in direct pursuit.
  Down here you are Local LE is still empowered state wide - I would assume similar works in Canada - but I may be wrong.
When I was on a US Marshall Violent Fugitive Task Force - we got sworn in as Marshalls before every operation, but I've arrested folks outside my jurisdiction (and even state once) depending on the type of offense.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (21 Feb 2022)

Since the emergency measures act does not apply to people registered under the Indian Act, how will if they commit to it, a protest be handled? 


The trampled Lady is indeed a Mohawk.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495748032411103234


----------



## Kilted (21 Feb 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> I have a question regarding police officers from outside Ontario and that is in regard to jurisdiction?
> 
> My understanding was that city/municipal police only had police powers in their city/municipality and provincial police forces only had powers in their respective province.
> 
> So what powers do these outside police officers have when operating in Ontario?


Depends on specific legislation. For example criminal code offences should be fair game to any police force. Provincial Offences would be something different.   It's not like the Dukes of Hazzard where you just need to outrun Rusco and Enos to the county line.


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Depends on specific legislation. For example criminal code offences should be fair game to any police force. Provincial Offences would be something different.   It's not like the Dukes of Hazzard where you just need to outrun Rusco and Enos to the county line.


Hazard county had one hell of a vehicle budget.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Generally hot pursuit allows LE to enter another jurisdiction when in direct pursuit.
> Down here you are Local LE is still empowered state wide - I would assume similar works in Canada - but I may be wrong.
> When I was on a US Marshall Violent Fugitive Task Force - we got sworn in as Marshalls before every operation, but I've arrested folks outside my jurisdiction (and even state once) depending on the type of offense.


Generally the same.  So-called 'hot pursuit' empowers police to continue to exercise their authority outside of the jurisdiction if the stated conditions are met.  Keep in mind that we don't have the equivalent of federal and state-level criminal law.

The Criminal Code makes no reference to jurisdiction when it defines 'peace officer', but it is the legislation that makes you one that is important.  Police officers in Ontario (and I will assume all other provinces) have authority province-wide by virtue of the provincial legislation that empowers them.  RCMP are empowered nation-wide by virtue of the federal RCMP Act.

The issue of the SQ playing last week in Ottawa is interesting, and I started reading a paper online about it then got distracted.  I assume that the regulation (order) under the Emergencies Act covered it.  There is an Ontario statute called the Interprovincial Policing Act (and assuming corresponding statutes in QC and MB) that allows members to be designation in neighbouring provinces, but it is member-specific.  This was enacted to solve problems with members in areas such as surveillance and drug enforcement regularly flipping across the border.  There is also a procedure in the Criminal Code for that but it is really clunky.  Back in the '70s before these changes, when I was in N/W Ontario, it was not uncommon to be in Manitoba and nobody seemed to care but times change.  Actually, to get to one FNT, one _had_ to go into MB. 

What RCMP members are generally not in Ontario is designated as Provincial Offences Officers for provincial statutes.  Similarly, OPP members are not empowered to enforce municipal bylaws unless it is expressly included in a municipal contract.  These seem to have been covered off in the emergency order, although at the end of day it probably mattered little.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Hypocrisy is corrosive to the rule of law.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do Peace Officers enforce the law? Or do they keep the Peace?

Which is more important?

Caledonia?  Railway Blockades? 









						Highway 6 bypass in Caledonia closed amid solidarity demonstration - Hamilton | Globalnews.ca
					

A social media post from the 1492 Land Back Lane campaign said the Highway 6 bypass was blocked in solidarity with a dispute in B.C.




					globalnews.ca
				




I'm pretty sure that decision is made by elected officials.


----------



## Kilted (21 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Since the emergency measures act does not apply to people registered under the Indian Act, how will if they commit to it, a protest be handled?
> View attachment 68895
> 
> The trampled Lady is indeed a Mohawk.
> ...


I'm guessing you are referring to the Emergencies Act. So the Toronto Sun posted an article claiming this, but I think that they misunderstood the regulations that they are quoting (which was put in place this month).  I believe the misunderstanding comes from exceptions to who is exempt from being prohibited from entering Canada. This is the actual regulation, found in the Canada Gazztte.






__





						Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1: Emergency Measures Regulations
					

February 15, 2022, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1, Canada Gazette




					canadagazette.gc.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Feb 2022)

If it's sensible to use emergency powers to deal with a problem, it must be much more sensible to spin up emergency powers in case something might crop up.

“We understood absolutely that we do not want to trigger an election. That would be the worst thing to do in this crisis,” said Singh in a press conference (here).

He's got a lot of reasons for wanting to avoid an election.  Not sure that denying now is a good time for "the people" to weigh in is a good one.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If it's sensible to use emergency powers to deal with a problem, it must be much more sensible to spin up emergency powers in case something might crop up.


You never know when it might come in handy.


----------



## Altair (21 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Why can Quebec stop the Truckers with thier police but Ottawa can't without the Emergency Measures Act?
> View attachment 68890
> 
> This will pass tonight.
> ...


Same way they did last time protestors tried to go to quebec city, or when they tried to go to toronto.

Those local police said hell no and didnt let them set up.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm guessing you are referring to the Emergencies Act. So the Toronto Sun posted an article claiming this, but I think that they misunderstood the regulations that they are quoting (which was put in place this month).  I believe the misunderstanding comes from exceptions to who is exempt from being prohibited from entering Canada. This is the actual regulation, found in the Canada Gazztte.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If so, Brian Lilley clearly can't read.


----------



## suffolkowner (21 Feb 2022)

Just to clarify for me.

The emergencies act is enacted and in force but must be passed by Parliament after the fact?
The above includes the Senate as well?
The above votes will be considered confidence votes in the government?


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Just to clarify for me.
> 
> The emergencies act is enacted and in force but must be passed by Parliament after the fact?
> The above includes the Senate as well?
> The above votes will be considered confidence votes in the government?


The way I understand things:

1.  A 'motion of confirmation' to the declaration of a public order emergency must be debated by Parliament.  The Act doesn't say what happens if the motion fails.  The actual authorities and powers under the Act are in a Regulation, which is the sole purview of the Governor in Council (Cabinet).

2.  Yes, although the Senate is limited in what it can do, particularly to motions.  Delay mostly. 'Parliament' includes both the House of Commons and the Senate.

3.  I believe that, with some exceptions, for a motion to be a matter of confidence it has to be declared in the motion itself.  I'm trying to get into the Hansard website but it is acting up on me.

Much later edit:  This is the text of the motion from Hansard for Feb 17:

*Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Public Safety, Lib.) *​     moved:
​That, pursuant to section 58 of the Emergencies Act, this House confirms the declaration of a public order emergency proclaimed on February 14, 2022.​
And from this on matters of confidence:

What constitutes a question of confidence in the government varies with the circumstances. Confidence is not a matter of parliamentary procedure, nor is it something on which the Speaker can be asked to rule. [5]  It is generally acknowledged, however, that confidence motions may be: [6] ​​
explicitly worded motions which state, in express terms, that the House has, or has not, confidence in the government;
motions expressly declared by the government to be questions of confidence;
implicit motions of confidence, that is, motions traditionally deemed to be questions of confidence, such as motions for the granting of Supply (although not necessarily an individual item of Supply [7] ), motions concerning the budgetary policy of the government [8]  and motions respecting the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne.


----------



## NavyShooter (21 Feb 2022)

An interesting discussion about police being potentially overtasked...the 'google' answer to how many police officers there were in Canada in 2019 is 68,718.  According to Google in the same set of search results, there are 30,092 active RCMP personnel, of which there are about 19,000 police officers.

I'll observe that the RCMP appears to have been tasked to the point (based on open source info) that they were even using members of their Musical Ride for front line response.

Toronto sent in their horses. 

If there were multiple protests nationally, in each of the major cities in Canada, how many police would be needed to effectively respond and quell them?  

I have no idea what the 'personpower' required to clean up Ottawa was, but it seems like 100 checkpoints, with 5 people at each of them would be 500.  Ottawa has (again google) 1,480 police officers- so just to staff those checkpoints in a rotating 12 on 12 off shift would require almost 2/3 of the police in Ottawa, leaving 480 on a rotating shift (12 on, 12 off) to cover the entire rest of the city.  

I suspect that level of effort is difficult to sustain, and yes, there probably would be problems dealing with a multiple city blockade situation.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Feb 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> An interesting discussion about police being potentially overtasked...the 'google' answer to how many police officers there were in Canada in 2019 is 68,718.  According to Google in the same set of search results, there are 30,092 active RCMP personnel, of which there are about 19,000 police officers.
> 
> I'll observe that the RCMP appears to have been tasked to the point (based on open source info) that they were even using members of their Musical Ride for front line response.
> 
> ...



The effort required to control an urban area the size of even a small town is astronomical, depending on the scale and duration of violence breaking out, and is never really discussed in connection with MACP scenarios, at least during the few TEWT type scenarios I've been involved in with the CAF.

As the Police are no doubt experiencing, it's a tremendously exhausting and resource intensive type of operation.

A town the size of Ottawa would probably require a Brigade sized formation, at least, to maintain any kind of effective 24/7 troop presence in support of Police agencies.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2022)

Imagine having your bank account frozen without even being charged with a crime.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495841230315560962


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Feb 2022)

`We seemed to have reached a point where protest is a [I]carte blanche[/I], hypocrisy is the boring norm, and the rule of law is rhetoric.`

I love this quote because its true. Left wing heads exploded over the ``Freedom Convoy` but it seems the willful destruction of LNG property, the assault on LNG workers and the ambush of police is OK and in fact encouraged in some places. 

Either the laws are enforced or we are in deep shit.   No one is above the law, and that was stated by Medecino  but in my crayon eating pea brain it seems there are rules for some but not others.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> An interesting discussion about police being potentially overtasked...the 'google' answer to how many police officers there were in Canada in 2019 is 68,718.  According to Google in the same set of search results, there are 30,092 active RCMP personnel, of which there are about 19,000 police officers.
> 
> I'll observe that the RCMP appears to have been tasked to the point (based on open source info) that they were even using members of their Musical Ride for front line response.
> 
> ...


Most of your post is interesting- except re:musical ride members. That’s not unusual. We pull like that for operations quite often- since there isn’t a full time public order disturbance there isn’t a full time Public order unit if that makes sense.

For conversation sake List of countries and dependencies by number of police officers - Wikipedia

Canadian police are overtasked- lots of it created by police managers. 

It may seem like a farce some days- but Canada is policed by permission.


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Most of your post is interesting- except re:musical ride members. That’s not unusual. We pull like that for operations quite often- since there isn’t a full time public order disturbance there isn’t a full time Public order unit if that makes sense.
> 
> For conversation sake List of countries and dependencies by number of police officers - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


There`s the issue. Too many `managers` aka good idea fairies.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

It keeps us from making headway on issues like mental health etc. a cops a Swiss Army knife for all social ills. Which means no one is served best- no matter intentions.

Need an air Marshall? Better find a cop.

Mental health advocate? Better find a cop.

Horse shows in the summer? Needs a cop.

Parenting skills? Better get a cop.

School talk? Cop

Spontaneous respond to violent event? Cop

Need a drivers licence tester in Nunavut? Cop.

Out of inspectors under the transport regulations? Not to worry! Despite no training the rcmp officers can do that too!


----------



## KevinB (21 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Do Peace Officers enforce the law? Or do they keep the Peace?
> 
> Which is more important?


The theory is that enforcing the law and keeping the peace are supposed to be synonymous...
  Which is always a neath theory until humans get involved.
  Down here depending on State, sworn officers have a Duty of Care to Act when they see certain types of activity even IF off-duty.




Kirkhill said:


> Caledonia?  Railway Blockades?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dealing with indigenous groups tends to get management in a tizzy.
  Clearly a car crew by itself isn't going to solve it - which then goes up the flagpole
   The Kevin solution is to roll up with an ERT BearCat and give them the option to disperse, then give them the count of 5 (5 minutes), and disperse them, by the minimum amount of force required to do so in a manner that ensures public order and strives to accommodate the safety of the public.
 Frankly it's the same solution I would have used in Ottawa for the truckers (regardless of my opinion of the origin of the convoy FWIW)

 It works against groups like MS-13, and OMG's - because they know you aren't going to back down, and they are going to lose - and lose badly.

As soon as you start treating groups differently - you get a two tiered Law Enforcement situation going - that is corrosive as fuck to a democratic state - and leads to really really bad things.


----------



## brihard (21 Feb 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> An interesting discussion about police being potentially overtasked...the 'google' answer to how many police officers there were in Canada in 2019 is 68,718.  According to Google in the same set of search results, there are 30,092 active RCMP personnel, of which there are about 19,000 police officers.
> 
> I'll observe that the RCMP appears to have been tasked to the point (based on open source info) that they were even using members of their Musical Ride for front line response.
> 
> ...



Jesus no. The Musical Ride were not front line. All of the formed bodies of police pushing the lines forward were from public order units comprised of volunteers from their respective services who put their day jobs aside and gear up when needed.

There are a few thousand Mounties in Ottawa. Some are operational, particularly the protective services and a few criminal investigative units. The rest are HQ or odds and sods. Imagine if CAF needed mass bodies to fill sandbags, and Carling was tipped on its side and tapped vigorously til the policy, doctrine, strategic, and administrative units all tumbled out. That’s basically what happened in Ottawa. A lot of sworn police officers working behind desks but still subject to service requirements were jammed into their uniforms with duty gear and sent out to man checkpoints, do foot patrols in secured areas, take handoff of arrestees from the front line, hold newly built fences overnight, etc. a few Musical Ride members likely deployed in these augmented capacities. Same deal with lots of bodies from OPP and OPS. Some had minor encounters with protesters, but this was generally in the context of protesters coming to them at a blocking position or checkpoint, and if it got silly, either a quick response team or a public order unit would be sent out.

The commitment of resources was incredible. Anyone perusing the media coverage would see shoulder patches from Ottawa, OPP, RCMP, Sureté du Québec, Toronto, Peel, York, Durham, Sudbury, Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver. Bear in mind that a sustained push through downtown wind tunnels in -20 with squalls requires frequent relief and rotation of troops. You need reserves and QRFs. The sheer size of the geography as the secured footprint expanded necessitated a lot of people. And much of this was done in the phase of profound uncertainty about whether their resolve would match their rhetoric, and whether threats (both those known and communicated to the public, and others that weren’t) would materialize. Fortunately they largely did not, though it’s bloody uncomfortable when a semi tractor starts up and revs its engine right in front of and facing dozens of police…

Ultimately, it was done safely, methodically and, I think, resoundingly professionally. Nothing involving thousands of police will be pretty or perfect, but this went as well as it realistically could have. I think many of the protesters genuinely did not believe the police would forcibly clear Wellington and downtown, or that trucks would be breached and seized. A great many protesters were screaming at police to help them forcibly usurp the elected government and, in particular, to forcibly remove the PM. I think the overwhelming force that was finally deployed paid off in that it deterred stupidity and violence that the crowd definitely could have brought, and that more than a few of them were sufficiently motivated for.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Feb 2022)

^^ Decent analysis, although we can only speculate on how many members were there, based on what we all viewed in the media.  There were no doubt other members nearby in 'warm standby'.  Considering that they had checkpoints ringing the 'red zone, plus ramp off 417 leading in, ya, lots of bodies, times 24 hours plus, as you say, responding to calls from the rest of the city.  Toronto had to deal with a potential pop-up on University, Windsor and I am assuming OPP still had an enhanced presence at the bridge, and every contributing police service still has to cover their calls.

Other logistical factors come into play as well.  Where do you house and feed them?  Comms is always an issue, particularly with multiple agencies.  It's a lot better than it used to be but still a work in progress.

According to Wiki, Canada ranks 27th out of 146 at 184/100K.  From my experience, surge capacity is fairly respectable, given enough time if, for no other reason, travel and response.  Sustained surge would be a problem.

For events such as this, lots of warm bodies helps, but the number of trained and equipped public order and tactical personnel is critical, and I have no clue about those numbers.


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Brihard- are musical ride members eligible for tac troop in National Capital? Like would they have called those team
Members first and then this was a secondary call for all hands on deck?

I have quite successfully evaded O and N except to attend ranges and schools


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> It keeps us from making headway on issues like mental health etc. a cops a Swiss Army knife for all social ills. Which means no one is served best- no matter intentions.
> 
> Need an air Marshall? Better find a cop.
> 
> ...


You forgot

Body recovery from the water

Taking pictures with tourists

Backgrounding in Serge for politicians at various events


----------



## kev994 (21 Feb 2022)

Provincial MLAs being petitioned for their vote on a federal act…

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495892445825052676


----------



## Booter (21 Feb 2022)

Right. That reminds me- we also manned the Coast Guard station this year for Gimli relief. So that too


----------



## KevinB (21 Feb 2022)

kev994 said:


> Provincial MLAs being petitioned for their vote on a federal act…
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495892445825052676


Quick insert Churchill quote... 


The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Winston Churchill


----------



## brihard (21 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> ^^ Decent analysis, although we can only speculate on how many members were there, based on what we all viewed in the media.  There were no doubt other members nearby in 'warm standby'.  Considering that they had checkpoints ringing the 'red zone, plus ramp off 417 leading in, ya, lots of bodies, times 24 hours plus, as you say, responding to calls from the rest of the city.  Toronto had to deal with a potential pop-up on University, Windsor and I am assuming OPP still had an enhanced presence at the bridge, and every contributing police service still has to cover their calls.
> 
> Other logistical factors come into play as well.  Where do you house and feed them?  Comms is always an issue, particularly with multiple agencies.  It's a lot better than it used to be but still a work in progress.
> 
> ...



A lot of it I don’t need to speculate on, though for obvious reasons I’m being very selective in what I speak to. The deployment of public order units from so many police services is unprecedented in Canadian history. The logistical effort was massive, and that’s not something that police are accustomed to in large scale the way the military is.



Booter said:


> Brihard- are musical ride members eligible for tac troop in National Capital? Like would they have called those team
> Members first and then this was a secondary call for all hands on deck?
> 
> I have quite successfully evaded O and N except to attend ranges and schools



None are currently, and I don’t imagine they’re ever supported for external secondary units. The training and touring schedule would prohibit it. Any Ride who were working would have been doing so as warm bodies to go wherever warm bodies were needed. They certainly were not engaged in the deliberate confrontation of protesters. I’m going to hold my tongue on both mine and the general sentiment towards certain private chat comments that have been publicly reported on.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2022)

overreach much...








						Canada to make some "emergency powers" PERMANENT | Justin Trudeau's tyrant deputy, Chrystia Freeland, says the government is working to make some of the current "emergency powers" permanent.  Every.... | By Young Americans for Liberty | Facebook
					

24K views, 210 likes, 2 loves, 696 comments, 649 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Young Americans for Liberty: Justin Trudeau's tyrant deputy, Chrystia Freeland, says the government is working to...




					fb.watch
				












						Canada goes full dictatorship, freezes bank and crypto accounts | "The names of both individuals & entities as well as crypto wallets have been shared by the RCMP with financial institutions & accounts have been frozen... | By Young Americans for Lib
					

839K views, 155 likes, 3 loves, 515 comments, 623 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Young Americans for Liberty: "The names of both individuals & entities as well as crypto wallets have been shared...




					fb.watch


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

The truckers have changed Canada forever
					

The Freedom Convoy has shaken Canadian politics to its core.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## MilEME09 (22 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> overreach much...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Will never survive a court challenge


----------



## Eaglelord17 (22 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The only Canadians that matter right now are the ones who will vote on this later today. It will be a whipped vote and the measure will pass, despite what their constituents may really want.


That statement most accurately sums up the failures in our democracy. How I wish the Swiss form of democracy was in effect.


----------



## Haggis (22 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Will never survive a court challenge


You can't mount a court challenge if your accounts are frozen.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> You can't mount a court challenge if your accounts are frozen.  Just sayin'.


You gotta admit the LPC played one hell of a game of chess.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You gotta admit the LPC played one hell of a game of chess.



Its easy when the population doesn't really care so long as the double doubles keep flowing and the NHL isnt on strike.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> If so, Brian Lilley clearly can't read.


C'mon, can't be breaking up the narrative with detailed reading of stuffy government documents, can one?


Haggis said:


> You can't mount a court challenge if your accounts are frozen.  Just sayin'.


Where there's a will ...


----------



## mariomike (22 Feb 2022)

21 Feb.

Looks like "Freedom" did not resonate with South-Asian truckers.

South Asian truckers say protest convoys didn't resonate with them, caused financial losses​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/south-asian-truckers-convoy-1.6359372
		




> In cities such as Toronto and Vancouver, they account for more than half of drivers.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> overreach much...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Based on the name, we can tell how the FB source is leaning, and video a bit wonky, but sure enough, there it is, in electronic black & white, via the GoC info-machine (highlights mine):


> ... Our banks and financial institutions are already obligated to report to the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, or FINTRAC. As of today, all crowdfunding platforms, and the payment service providers they use, must register with FINTRAC and must report large and suspicious transactions to FINTRAC.  This will help mitigate the risk that these platforms receive illicit funds; increase the quality and quantity of intelligence received by FINTRAC; and make more information available to support investigations by law enforcement into these illegal blockades.  We are making these changes because we know that these platforms are being used to support illegal blockades and illegal activity, which is damaging the Canadian economy.  *The government will also bring forward legislation to provide these authorities to FINTRAC on a permanent basis* ....


Text also attached in case link doesn't work.


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Based on the name, we can tell how the FB source is leaning, and video a bit wonky, but sure enough, there it is, in electronic black & white, via the GoC info-machine (highlights mine):
> 
> Text also attached in case link doesn't work.


I see no problem with that.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Based on the name, we can tell how the FB source is leaning, and video a bit wonky, but sure enough, there it is, in electronic black & white, via the GoC info-machine (highlights mine):
> 
> Text also attached in case link doesn't work.


Uhm so aren't nearly all of these US based?
   I mean frankly the idea that Canada is going to try to tell us what to do is kind of laughable considering Canada already is a D- on Money Laundering and Corruption issues.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Uhm so aren't nearly all of these US based?
> I mean frankly the idea that Canada is going to try to tell us what to do is kind of laughable considering Canada already is a D- on Money Laundering and Corruption issues.


Yes, some of us could only dream that the Federal Government would put as much effort seizing the assets of sophisticated criminal organizations as the did going after Mom & Pop's donating to the Freedom Convoy 









						As Canada’s home prices soared during COVID-19, real-estate money laundering audits fell 64%  | Globalnews.ca
					

As nearly half a billion dollars in sales flooded the Canadian housing market last year, audits conducted by Canada’s anti-money laundering watchdog plummeted during COVID-19.




					globalnews.ca
				




It's ok though, my spouse and I actually had a conversation the other day about potentially eventually immigrating South to more economically favourable conditions.  I already have a number of relatives South of the Border and seeing the general trend of things here, the decision may be an easy one, sooner rather than later


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Uhm so aren't nearly all of these US based?
> I mean frankly the idea that Canada is going to try to tell us what to do is kind of laughable considering Canada already is a D- on Money Laundering and Corruption issues.


They are.  But if they don’t comply I suspect they would not be able to operate in country.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yes, some of us could only dream that the Federal Government would put as much effort seizing the assets of sophisticated criminal organizations as the did going after Mom & Pop's donating to the Freedom Convoy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't be silly we only investigate our political adversaries not the CCP err I mean anyone else. 

I have a big truck I can take both  our families!  Hop in!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Don't be silly we only investigate our political adversaries not the CCP err I mean anyone else.
> 
> I have a big truck I can take both  our families!  Hop in!


We were watching Yellowstone the other night and I jokingly looked up housing prices in Montana and then began immediately regretting the decisions I've made in life


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> They are.  But if they don’t comply I suspect they would not be able to operate in country.


Operate in?
   I think you don't have a firm grasp of how finances work these days.
 Yes perhaps they could block Canadian Financial Institutions from sending money - or an electronic transfer from one to a Canadian Account - but I didn't see old CF talking about dealing with Crypto, so one could run a Crypto campaign - and then either wire money from a third party account, or send a MO or Certified Check (or Cheque for y'all).

Plus nothing stops a Canadian from getting a US bank account - I had one for years before immigrating down here.
   Sure the interest etc info is reported to CRA, so you can't duck the tax man, but you could move money to things the CG wouldn't be aware of.


----------



## Navy_Pete (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Uhm so aren't nearly all of these US based?
> I mean frankly the idea that Canada is going to try to tell us what to do is kind of laughable considering Canada already is a D- on Money Laundering and Corruption issues.


I think they are talking about money moving in and out of Canadian banking accounts via those services, but I think they'd be better off by clarifying the tax laws around this. If you read the transfer requirements on gofundme, for example, they have pretty specific eligibility requirements but it's in depth enough that they probably are already aware of what is required under whatever international wire transfer laws apply. I'm sure anyone US based already has this info and there are all kinds of existing banking info agreements between the two countries, and Canadian banks send info along annually to the IRS on US citizen Canadian accounts, so I think there would probably be a lot less resistance to cooperation than you think.

In theory money going to the individuals is taxable income, so really up to them to report it individually.  Bad day though when the disbursement gets traced down to the individuals if they didn't declare it; no one can ruin your life like the tax man under their normal, day to day authorities.

Having said that, the CRA still hasn't done much about the Panama papers or any of the other big tax dodges that got leaked to the public so hope they go after the hundreds of millions there before they even think about some kind of Freedum convoy 'task group', and limit it to the big ticket grifters instead of going after all the individual protestors.


----------



## QV (22 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yes, some of us could only dream that the Federal Government would put as much effort seizing the assets of sophisticated criminal organizations as the did going after Mom & Pop's donating to the Freedom Convoy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I keep hearing this sentiment far more than ever before.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I keep hearing this sentiment far more than ever before.


All Gun Owning Canadians Welcome - if you don't have a gun, I can lend you one


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Feb 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> We were watching Yellowstone the other night and I jokingly looked up housing prices in Montana and then began immediately regretting the decisions I've made in life



May I recommend Alaska ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> All Gun Owning Canadians Welcome - if you don't have a gun, I can lend you one



Can I bring my own ?


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Operate in?
> I think you don't have a firm grasp of how finances work these days.
> Yes perhaps they could block Canadian Financial Institutions from sending money - or an electronic transfer from one to a Canadian Account - but I didn't see old CF talking about dealing with Crypto, so one could run a Crypto campaign - and then either wire money from a third party account, or send a MO or Certified Check (or Cheque for y'all).
> 
> ...


That’s what I am getting at. 

 And no I am not that versed in financial transactions. 

Transactions still need to be effectuated.  The law they want to bring in covers transaction from and to Canadians.

So if a crowd funding platform wants to operate in Canada, like any other business  they would need to register.

Of course there are ways around it.  It just makes it harder.   Go fund me is going to comply. They won’t risk losing business in Canada over it.  Same with PayPal give.  Give send go?  No clue but they are rank amateurs with other issues right now so no loss.  People should think twice about using that site.  They’d be doing people a favour by not complying.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Feb 2022)

21 Feb Dear Diary: Freedom continues to advance throughout the northern hemisphere...


----------



## Spencer100 (22 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> 21 Feb Dear Diary: Freedom continues to advance throughout the northern hemisphere...


Where?  We are moving faster to the abyss.


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> 21 Feb Dear Diary: Freedom continues to advance throughout the northern hemisphere...


Speaking of which.  Someone isn’t getting much of it for now.









						Key convoy organizer Tamara Lich denied bail while Patrick King appears in court
					

Tamara Lich, one of the most visible organizers behind protests against COVID-19 restrictions and the Liberal government near Parliament Hill, was denied bail Tuesday.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Where?  We are moving faster to the abyss.



You have to hurry up.  You're not keeping up with the Newspeak.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2022)

Clearly a danger like this to society cannot be allowed to walk around free, unlike drug dealers, rapists, gangbangers........

When your government is a vindictive bitch





						CityNews
					






					vancouver.citynews.ca


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Clearly a danger like this to society cannot be allowed to walk around free, unlike drug dealers, rapists, gangbangers........
> 
> When your government is a vindictive bitch
> 
> ...


Hard to state that when Chris Barber was released on bail.  

Have to prove you aren’t at risk of reoffending.  I guess she didn’t make her case.   He did. 

We’ll see how the Pat King bail hearing goes.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> May I recommend Alaska ?



I know both Montana and Alaska.  I prefer the weather in Montana.  If moving to Montana soon (don't eat the yellow snow) I would recommend staying clear of the tonier places.  They think like Ottawa People.  Having said that, there are lots of other wide open spaces with Other People.


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I know both Montana and Alaska.  I prefer the weather in Montana.  If moving to Montana soon (don't eat the yellow snow) I would recommend staying clear of the tonier places.  They think like Ottawa People.  Having said that, there are lots of other wide open spaces with Other People.


----------



## Weinie (22 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Hard to state that when Chris Barber was released on bail.
> 
> Have to prove you aren’t at risk of reoffending.  I guess she didn’t make her case.   He did.
> 
> We’ll see how the Pat King bail hearing goes.


Yon Remius has a lean and hungry look.


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

Weinie said:


> Yon Remius has a lean and hungry look.


What?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Feb 2022)

Weinie said:


> Yon Remius has a lean and hungry look.


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

Anyways…

Pat King’s hearing isn’t going well by all accounts.  

I predict he’ll get denied bail.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Anyways…
> 
> Pat King’s hearing isn’t going well by all accounts.
> 
> I predict he’ll get denied bail.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496140000320270340


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> What?



This kind of nicely explains NDHQ as well 


*Caesar:*
Antonio!

*Marcus Antonius:*
Caesar?

*Caesar:*
Let me have men about me that are fat,
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep a-nights.
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look,
He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.



			https://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/yond-cassius-has-lean-hungry-look


----------



## brihard (22 Feb 2022)

On the comments upthread about a move to make crowdfunding services register with FINTRAC, that’s utterly unsurprising and long overdue.

FINTRAC is a financial intelligence agency. Just about any money services business in Canada must register, and a lot of different transactions have to be reported. In a nutshell anything over $10k, and anything a bank (right down to the teller level) seems suspicious. If you’ve ever bought a house, cashed a cheque for over $10k, bought a bank draft for over $10k, that should have been reported to FINTRAC.

FINTRAC does not enforce criminal law themselves can disclose certain informtation to let enforcement to initiate and support criminal investigations. Any investigation into money laundering, terrorist financing, sanctions violations etc will likely involve their material. FINTRAC is strictly Canada. Our allies have similar agencies with similar criteria. 

Any crowdfunding business that wants to be doing business in Canada absolutely should be FINTRAC registered and compliant. It’s a potentially huge gap in the anti-money-laundering regime. It doesn’t mean ever $50 donation to some cause is going to the government; it simply puts an onus on the business to report large and/or suspicious transactions. The individuals involved still have all their normal due process rights should an investigation and prosecution result.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2022)

I would rather they focus on the old fashioned ways of laundering money like our casino's here in BC, where no one was following the existing rules and the politicians could not be bothered, along with numbered companies buying real estate. Deal with them first.


----------



## brihard (22 Feb 2022)

Casinos and realtors have to report to FINTRAC as well. There may be significant compliance gaps, but I don’t have the training or experience to speak to that.


----------



## lenaitch (22 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> Casinos and realtors have to report to FINTRAC as well. There may be significant compliance gaps, but I don’t have the training or experience to speak to that.


The disconnect between the casinos and their regulator was revealed in the BC 'Cullen Inquiry' into money laundering in the province.  I don't think it has tabled its final report yet.

I recall when we bought our current house in 2011 we had to sign a bunch of Fintrac documents.


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

Trudeau promises that Canada will only be under the Emergencies Act for as long as trucks exist
					

“Trucks are everywhere,” Trudeau argued today in the House of Commons, looking over his shoulder to make sure there were no trucks behind him.




					www.thebeaverton.com
				




Makes sense.


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Feb 2022)

As per BC Casinos;
You would have thought the fact that they had  the same customers who on a daily to weekly basis would would show up with duffle bags of cash. Gamble for an half hour . Then exchange casino chips for brand new cash and leave.
Then again perhaps I'm just the overly suspicious type .


----------



## RangerRay (22 Feb 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> As per BC Casinos;
> You would have thought the fact that they had  the same customers who on a daily to weekly basis would would show up with duffle bags of cash. Gamble for an half hour . Then exchange casino chips for brand new cash and leave.
> Then again perhaps I'm just the overly suspicious type .


Off topic, but I suggest reading Wilful Blindness by Sam Cooper. I just started and what I have read is eye-popping.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Have to prove you aren’t at risk of reoffending.


Like Paul Batchelor did.
​


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

Interesting video of the RCMP allegedly trying to conduct a "surprise inspection" on a restaurant who stayed open during the protests and served protestors.






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495474830174523398
I wonder if Enrico and Deborah Kuhn will be promptly arrested, have their bank account frozen, and business license revoked.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Feb 2022)

The way things are going, the PM no longer has to worry about being remembered for blackface, or experiencing things differently, or trying to pressure the AG.  His father is partly remembered for using war emergency powers to deal with domestic terrorism; he will be remembered for using anti-terrorism emergency powers to deal with an over-stuffed block party.


----------



## lenaitch (22 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Interesting video of the RCMP allegedly trying to conduct a "surprise inspection" on a restaurant who stayed open during the protests and served protestors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks like Ottawa municipal enforcement.  I'm not seeing the "forcing them to close" or "breaking down the door" parts.  It looks to me like the proprietors weren't letting them in.  Perhaps they wanted to serve them for violations observed during the protest.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> That looks like Ottawa municipal enforcement.  I'm not seeing the "forcing them to close" or "breaking down the door" parts.  It looks to me like the proprietors weren't letting them in.  Perhaps they wanted to serve them for violations observed during the protest.


... or maybe even public health measures - but that's not as "click baity"


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> That looks like Ottawa municipal enforcement.  I'm not seeing the "forcing them to close" or "breaking down the door" parts.  It looks to me like the proprietors weren't letting them in.  Perhaps they wanted to serve them for violations observed during the protest.





The Bread Guy said:


> ... or maybe even public health measures - but that's not as "click baity"


And can't find any other info about this incident besides Twitter feeds and questionable news sources.  Shocking.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> And can't find any other info about this incident besides Twitter feeds and questionable news sources.  Shocking.


Just like the poor woman who died ...


----------



## Haggis (22 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The way things are going, the PM no longer has to worry about being remembered for blackface, or experiencing things differently, or trying to pressure the AG.  His father is partly remembered for using war emergency powers to deal with domestic terrorism; he will be remembered for using anti-terrorism emergency powers to deal with an over-stuffed block party. ..showing leadership which was absent at the municipal and provincial levels and acting decisively to end a serious threat to the nation's capital.


FTFY, Gerald Butts style.


----------



## Haggis (22 Feb 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Just like the poor woman who died ...


...twice.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> ...twice.


... in very different area codes ....


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> And can't find any other info about this incident besides Twitter feeds and questionable news sources.  Shocking.


Maybe it's getting the same attention by the media that the leaked RCMP chat is.


----------



## brihard (22 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Interesting video of the RCMP allegedly trying to conduct a "surprise inspection" on a restaurant who stayed open during the protests and served protestors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s Ottawa Police and Bylaw, not RCMP. It wasn’t an inspection; police were attempting to arrest some protesters who had fled into the cafe with the doors then locked. I guess a decision was ultimately made not to force entry? I don’t know what followup resulted.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> That looks like Ottawa municipal enforcement.  I'm not seeing the "forcing them to close" or "breaking down the door" parts.  It looks to me like the proprietors weren't letting them in.  Perhaps they wanted to serve them for violations observed during the protest.


Could very well be, think you're right about it not being RCMP.

I wouldn't be surprised if protestor-friendly establishments become criminals as well.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s Ottawa Police and Bylaw, not RCMP. It wasn’t an inspection; police were attempting to arrest some protesters who had fled into the cafe with the doors then locked. I guess a decision was ultimately made not to force entry? I don’t know what followup resulted.


Ah right on. My mistake. Seems strange the police wouldn't try to force entry but maybe they're paying more attention to optics.
Definitely have some egg on my face on this one 🙄


----------



## brihard (22 Feb 2022)

I’m speculating here: Forcing entry, through a double doorway, into a business with a bunch of pissed off people inside, who you want to arrest and will potentially resist you, plus unknown number of other patrons who may be like-minded, may not be a wise or ‘worth it’ tactical choice against the risk of injury. There are other ways to handle the situation using some patience.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m speculating here: Forcing entry, through a double doorway, into a business with a bunch of pissed off people inside, who you want to arrest and will potentially resist you, plus unknown number of other patrons who may be like-minded, may not be a wise or ‘worth it’ tactical choice against the risk of injury. There are other ways to handle the situation using some patience.


Eventually the food runs out....


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

Russel Brand - notorious fascist.

Trudeau - Is This Your Liberal Hero?​


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m speculating here: Forcing entry, through a double doorway, into a business with a bunch of pissed off people inside, who you want to arrest and will potentially resist you, plus unknown number of other patrons who may be like-minded, may not be a wise or ‘worth it’ tactical choice against the risk of injury. There are other ways to handle the situation using some patience.


Gas, gas and more gas.   Seriously it's Ottawa, it's not like they have a PKM sandbagged in back - 
  Looks to be 8 Officers, flipping the sign to closed was just an asshole move by the people in the restaurant.   I'm fairly sympathetic to the concept of the protest - but effectively flipping off the Officers outside is just asking for additional troubles.   Don't want to open the door - fine I'll remove a window with my baton, and add a few charges to the original ones.   Yes perhaps I am more confident in my abilities if things go sideways - but any LEO needs to accept some risk comes with the job, and enforcing the law is kind of a big part of putting on a badge.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

The Liberals are asking, on line, for donations....


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Russel Brand - notorious fascist well-known asshole.



FTFY


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> The Liberals are asking, on line, for donations....


As do the Conservatives, NDP, PPC, Green Party...  What of it??


----------



## Booter (22 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Interesting video of the RCMP allegedly trying to conduct a "surprise inspection" on a restaurant who stayed open during the protests and served protestors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can’t even get the agency right?

I guess “facts” only matter when they are the right ones


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Can’t even get the agency right?
> 
> I guess “facts” only matter when they are the right ones


Nope. I made a mistake and owned it. You'll have to save defending crappy behavior for next time.


----------



## Booter (22 Feb 2022)

Can you explain how the video was interesting when you didn’t know what was on it? Or was it just the colours that caught your attention?


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> FTFY



Funny.  Both my kids said exactly the same thing.  
Before they accused me of trolling.


----------



## lenaitch (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Gas, gas and more gas.   Seriously it's Ottawa, it's not like they have a PKM sandbagged in back -
> Looks to be 8 Officers, flipping the sign to closed was just an asshole move by the people in the restaurant.   I'm fairly sympathetic to the concept of the protest - but effectively flipping off the Officers outside is just asking for additional troubles.   Don't want to open the door - fine I'll remove a window with my baton, and add a few charges to the original ones.   Yes perhaps I am more confident in my abilities if things go sideways - but any LEO needs to accept some risk comes with the job, and enforcing the law is kind of a big part of putting on a badge.


But there are often other ways to the same end - get somebody to court - without starting another shit-show in a sea of shit-shows.  As mentioned, we don't know what the offender was wanted for and what follow up occurred after the camera was off.  At the FN Tyendinega rail blockage a few years back, most of the arrests and charges happened after the fact.  Depending on the circumstances, 'obstruct police' sounds like a good start.

It may cost them their business licence.  If Ottawa is like most municipalities in Ontario, bylaw enforcement typically has the right of entry during normal business hours.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> As do the Conservatives, NDP, PPC, Green Party...  What of it??



Just wondering if I should be concerned about having my accounts frozen after the next election.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Can you explain how the video was interesting when you didn’t know what was on it? Or was it just the colours that caught your attention?


Sure but only because you asked nicely.
I believed the explanation I read about the incident and thought the prospect of police punishing people who supported the protest was an interesting development. The language surrounding who the police will be going after is very ambiguous as you've read.
Speaking of colours and agencies, we're these more kids in uniform or was this crew actual professional officers?


----------



## lenaitch (22 Feb 2022)

My daughter brought this to my attention.  It exploded on both social and traditional media including CNN and AP:









						UN planes at northern Ontario airport spark social media conspiracy theories
					

Two airplanes parked at North Bay’s Jack Garland Airport became infamous on social media last weekend after conspiracy theories linked them to the so-called 'Freedom Convoy' in Ottawa.




					northernontario.ctvnews.ca
				




Apparently (I have to say that since I have only 2nd hand), the original TicToc post was made by a CAF member who is being released because of COVID and is hell-bent on going out in a blaze of glory.

I swear we need to find a way to aerosolize Prozac and finally put some truth to the chem-trails conspiracy.


----------



## brihard (22 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sure but only because you asked nicely.
> I believed the explanation I read about the incident and thought the prospect of police punishing people who supported the protest was an interesting. The language surrounding who the police will be going after is very ambiguous as you've read.
> Speaking of colours and agencies, we're these more kids in uniform or was this crew actual professional officers?


The fact that you see bylaw at the door more than OPS suggests to me that, whatever was going on at that point in time, it was of greater concern to bylaw than to police. I’ve read elsewhere that there was some pro-protester streaming taking place within the cafe, with deliberate and defiance of some of the Covid precautions as an attempt to provoke a law enforcement response.

Smashing into the business to enforce essentially a bylaw matter (while they were streaming live on YouTube) could easily have become a flashpoint in the context of the larger ongoing situation. This took place Sunday afternoon; there were a lot of protesters still in the area, pissed off, but without a specific plan or any focal point for what to do next.

A business can be ticketed later. Suspects can be IDed and apprehended later. Part of professional policing is having the sense and discretion to recognize where a specific enforcement objective might fit into a bigger picture. As it is, that situation did _not_ escalate farther, when it easily could have.

(Edit to add: this is from what I see in a relatively brief look, and the presence of a definite bylaw vehicle parked right in front. I could always be wrong.)


----------



## Remius (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> My daughter brought this to my attention.  It exploded on both social and traditional media including CNN and AP:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those planes are there to take Roberta Paulsen to her next protest death.  My guess is Ukraine.


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Those planes are there to take Roberta Paulsen to her next protest death.  My guess is Ukraine.


Of course!!!
It all makes sense now.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> The fact that you see bylaw at the door more than OPS suggests to me that, whatever was going on at that point in time, it was of greater concern to bylaw than to police. I’ve read elsewhere that there was some pro-protester streaming taking place within the cafe, with deliberate and defiance of some of the Covid precautions as an attempt to provoke a law enforcement response.
> 
> Smashing into the business to enforce essentially a bylaw matter (while they were streaming live on YouTube) could easily have become a flashpoint in the context of the larger ongoing situation. This took place Sunday afternoon; there were a lot of protesters still in the area, pissed off, but without a specific plan or any focal point for what to do next.
> 
> ...










This video is 15 minutes and shows more. It does sound like a protestor was inside hiding from the police (comments about calling the hotel to get his stuff put aside).

I noticed the cops at the door have A41 on their vests. I seen that number on a lot of officers. Are those are bylaw officers with the A41 markings? They're doing the majority of the interaction.

In the video the narrator mentions the police are asking to do an inspection. The store owner seems to be saying he doesn't believe they're they're bylaw officers (presumably to come in and do an inspection).

I'm not sure having the presence of the lord is enough to keep the police out like the woman is suggesting.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2022)

Members of a parliamentary committee set up to scrutinize the Emergencies Act will have to take an oath of secrecy, but will not be given access to highly classified material, says the government's representative in the Senate.



> "What emergency exists today other than some secret emergency you can't tell us about?" asked Sen. Scott Tannas, leader of the Canadian Senators Group.



Good question.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Members of a parliamentary committee set up to scrutinize the Emergencies Act will have to take an oath of secrecy, but will not be given access to highly classified material, says the government's representative in the Senate.




And the double-speak doesn’t end in the Lower House…



> The government's representative in the second chamber said this question was "a preoccupation of many." Gold said the Emergencies Act was less far-reaching with more checks and balances, including parliamentary scrutiny, than its predecessor, the War Measures Act.
> 
> He said *there were many mechanisms in the act that would allow the Commons and Senate to question its provisions*. He said he would be proud to see senators using "all the democratic tools in our kit" to hold the government, or any government, to account.


..so long as it doesn’t mean asking about the secret information that the Government won’t provide the elected and appointed officials of Parliament. 

Nothing to see here…move on…


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Feb 2022)

Remember when people howled at Harper for not being transparent ? 

JT: I won the election ? Hold my beer.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Those planes are there to take Roberta Paulsen to her next protest death.  My guess is Ukraine.


When will her oppression end?


----------



## FSTO (23 Feb 2022)

The basis of a lot of the anger towards Trudeau and his PMO is the outright lies they told to the Canadian public. 

Remember these hits?

This is the last first past the post election!

We''ll see the Admiral in court!

The budget will balance itself

The Justice Minister experienced things differently

WE, the Keilbergers and Justin's Mom

Norman, SNC Lavalin, WE. If the PMO just came out and said "We F**ed up" I bet a lot of anger would be dissipated but they blocked, evaded, delayed which "proved" to the great unwashed that the PMO and the PM are full of s** and they will do anything to keep the stink off of them. 
Look at Ford, he regularly screws things up or make the wrong decisions. But he's quick to admit when wrong and then change tack, and that goes along way with the plebes that this guy is just like us. 

The Lawyer and Laurentide sect don't seem to get this.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> The Lawyer and Laurentide sect don't seem to get this.



I would argue they don't think think they have made any mistakes or told and lies... Remember people just experience things differently.


----------



## KevinB (23 Feb 2022)

Look we joined the Me too group too








						National Guard assistance for DC truck convoys approved by Pentagon
					

The District of Columbia government and the U.S. Capitol Police requested the National Guard assistance.




					www.militarytimes.com


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Look we joined the Me too group too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Saw that.  I guess after Jan 6th and seeing what happened in Ottawa they aren’t taking any chances.


----------



## lenaitch (23 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Members of a parliamentary committee set up to scrutinize the Emergencies Act will have to take an oath of secrecy, but will not be given access to highly classified material, says the government's representative in the Senate.
> 
> 
> 
> Good question.


I'm not convinced our system is properly set up for legislators and policy makers to have access to sensitive information yet maintain effective safeguards.  A policy of openness, Parliamentary Privilege and too much temptation to beak off with their thumbs for partisan gain, and not enough ''hauled off to the tower' repercussions.


----------



## KevinB (23 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not convinced our system is properly set up for legislators and policy makers to have access to sensitive information yet maintain effective safeguards.  A policy of openness, Parliamentary Privilege and too much temptation to beak off with their thumbs for partisan gain, and not enough ''hauled off to the tower' repercussions.


The unfortunately side to Democratic process.
   Occurs down here too.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not convinced our system is properly set up for legislators and policy makers to have access to sensitive information yet maintain effective safeguards.  A policy of openness, Parliamentary Privilege and too much temptation to beak off with their thumbs for partisan gain, and not enough ''hauled off to the tower' repercussions.


Possibly not. But at the same time it creates a system where parliamentary privilege et el is easily abused. Providing Canadians are actually compensated for banned firearms, that's a $1B cost to tax payers based on "evidence" no one is allowed to see. The current government has hardly behaved in an open transparent and trust worthy manner.

This emergency act is turning out to be the same thing. Feet dragging and inaction turned a 3 day protest into a month occupation. The situation is brought under control but the government is still going ahead with the temporary Emergency Act, of which the government will be making portions permanent, and the members of parliament we voted in to make decisions for us will not be given the full story to make their decisions. There's some ill defined ambiguous scary threat lurking out there that we just have to trust the government about. Is this intelligence from the same sources that apparently royally screwed up the threat assessment on the truckers? WMD in Iraq kind of stuff.


----------



## Quirky (23 Feb 2022)

Good portion of Canadians who vote for left leaning governments don't care about rights and freedoms, they are more than happy letting government control their lives. People vote for their local MPs who are supposed to represent their views and listen to their concerns, not tow the party line. Whatever Canada is, a functioning democracy it is not.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Feb 2022)

Quirky said:


> Good portion of Canadians who vote for left leaning governments don't care about rights and freedoms, they are more than happy letting government control their lives. People vote for their local MPs who are supposed to represent their views and listen to their concerns, not tow the party line. Whatever Canada is, a functioning democracy it is not.



Yes it is.  You may not like it but it is. 

The challenge is for the opposition to provide a suitable alternative.  And right now they do not.


----------



## RangerRay (23 Feb 2022)

Matt Gurney: Unless Trudeau can explain what the emergency is, he is abusing his power
					

It's far from clear that the police required new powers to clear Ottawa protests




					nationalpost.com
				






> So sometime in the next few days, Justin Trudeau is either going to need to tell Canadians, as best he can without jeopardizing lives, what the ongoing emergency is, or he’s going to have to tell Canadians that the emergency has passed and that the emergency powers are no longer needed. The law permits him no other choices. So now we wait and see what happens next.


----------



## OceanBonfire (23 Feb 2022)

Says a lot about these protesters having a temper tantrum:



> Social media pages under the same names as several of the accused in Coutts have shared conspiracy theories, complaints about the government and inaccurate COVID-19 information.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/governor-general-no-confidence-1.6360883
		










						Look West: Criminal anthropologist says Alberta at heart of unrest, protests
					

A criminal anthropologist suggests looking to the West to find the heart of protests and blockades that gripped the nation for more than a month.




					calgary.ctvnews.ca


----------



## MilEME09 (23 Feb 2022)

Senate growing frustrated by pressure to rubber stamp Emergencies Act
					

Senators are being asked to make decisions on the basis of 'secret information' for a crisis 'that is not visible'




					nationalpost.com
				




Looks like the senate isn't just going to rubber stamp this


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Senate growing frustrated by pressure to rubber stamp Emergencies Act
> 
> 
> Senators are being asked to make decisions on the basis of 'secret information' for a crisis 'that is not visible'
> ...


They shouldn’t.  Besides the Liberal senators aren’t part of the caucus anymore. Lol.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not convinced our system is properly set up for legislators and policy makers to have access to sensitive information yet maintain effective safeguards.  A policy of openness, Parliamentary Privilege and too much temptation to beak off with their thumbs for partisan gain, and not enough ''hauled off to the tower' repercussions.




Some of that for sure.  But I think another part of the failure of that system is the failure to consider the other members of parliament as responsible, honourable members.  If only they could accept that the other side's ideas are equally worthy of consideration then they could start to consider planning on the basis of which plan creates the least harm if it fails.


----------



## KevinB (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Some of that for sure.  But I think another part of the failure of that system is the failure to consider the other members of parliament as responsible, honourable members.  If only they could accept that the other side's ideas are equally worthy of consideration then they could start to consider planning on the basis of which plan creates the least harm if it fails.


If the information is real so super duper secret - then perhaps the Canadian Government should have a House and Senate Intelligence panel where those members are read into programs.   That way a limited (and security cleared) members of both the ruling party andthe opposition can have access to the information, and inform their party without divulging sources and scope of the information if there is a credible concern or not.

I mean the idea that the MP's can't be trusted to vote on the why of the EMR is kind of a page from an authoritarian dictator who allows the people a show of democracy and never actually listens to the people that the public elected as MPs.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/governor-general-no-confidence-1.6360883


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not convinced our system is properly set up for legislators and policy makers to have access to sensitive information yet maintain effective safeguards.  A policy of openness, Parliamentary Privilege and too much temptation to beak off with their thumbs for partisan gain, and not enough ''hauled off to the tower' repercussions.


Which may have elements of valid concerns, of sorts, HOWEVER, if they do, then prosecute them to the f*ull extent* of the Security of Information Act (prev. Official Secrets Act).

I still think that to respect the Parliamentary system, the committee members must be granted access to the information to be able to provide the oversight to which Sen. Gord says they have the responsibility to do.  Otherwise, a CSIS or CSE operating without oversight isn’t anything I want to have happening in Canada.

“Read in, held accountable!”


----------



## Blackadder1916 (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> . . . If only they could accept that the other side's ideas are equally worthy of consideration then they could start to consider planning on the basis of which plan creates the least harm if it fails.



But that's not how our parliamentary system is designed.  If the other side's ideas were "worthy", they'd be government.  Any time that I hear a politician proclaim that he/she is willing to work with the other side, my brain automatically translates it to "I'll work with you but I'm still in charge, shut-up and let me do what I think is right want and I won't fuck you around too much".


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Possibly not. But at the same time it creates a system where parliamentary privilege et el is easily abused. Providing Canadians are actually compensated for banned firearms, that's a $1B cost to tax payers based on "evidence" no one is allowed to see. The current government has hardly behaved in an open transparent and trust worthy manner.
> 
> This emergency act is turning out to be the same thing. *Feet dragging and inaction turned a 3 day protest into a month occupation*. The situation is brought under control but the government is still going ahead with the temporary Emergency Act, of which the government will be making portions permanent, and the members of parliament we voted in to make decisions for us will not be given the full story to make their decisions. There's some ill defined ambiguous scary threat lurking out there that we just have to trust the government about. Is this intelligence from the same sources that apparently royally screwed up the threat assessment on the truckers? WMD in Iraq kind of stuff.



If I understand the timeline there was an online campaign that became active on January 14 when fundraising commenced.
8 days later, *January 22, trucks started rolling from distant locations like Prince Rupert and Smith Falls.

7 days later, January 29, the trucks arrived in Ottawa *with, apparently, a useful contingent of local supporters waving them into town.
Also on January 29 Coutts border crossing blockaded by local truckers and farmers.

7 February, Ambassador Bridge blockaded
10 February, Pembina crossing in Manitoba blockaded
11 February, Biden calls Trudeau
11 February, Mayor of Windsor granted an injunction against the Ambassador Bridge blockade
12 February, a Saturday, a group of sympathizers from Chilliwack gathered at Vancouver's commercial crossing to Blaine on Hwy 15
13 February, the Hwy 15 crossing was open.
13 February, the Ambassador Bridge was cleared and opened - Windsor Police, OPP and available police reinforcements
*13 February, Minister Blair "urged the (Ottawa) police to do their jobs, enforce the law and restore order".[393][251] Police enforcement of "layers of laws, injunctions, and emergency orders already in effect" was minimal,*

14 February, guns seized at Coutts
14 Emergency Measures Act invoked
15 February, Coutts blockade collapsed and cleared.   Site left the way the protestors found it according to the Mayor.
16 February, Pembina blockade collapsed and cleared.
17 February, debate on Emergency Measures Act postponed due to police actions to clear protesters
19 February, Ottawa cleared of truckers
21 February, Emergency Measures Act debated and passed

I suggest we are all victim of the Ottawa version of the Map of Canada.  Only their view doesn't extend past Wellington Street.

The locals couldn't get to work and were having trouble sleeping and they didn't think the local constabulary was addressing their concerns adequately.   Then they discovered the constabulary didn't actually work for the federal government.  But they could fix that.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Says a lot about these protesters having a temper tantrum:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh geez.  (somewhere between amused, unsurprised and face palming).  

Have a great day.  Its a glorious one in Southern Alberta.  Blue skies as usual.

Cheers.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

> I guess after Jan 6th and seeing what happened in Ottawa they aren’t taking any chances.



In both cases authorities over-reacted and are over-reacting.  Politicians and media, and many other people, know that keeping a sense of crisis going is a political enabler.  The "permanent changes" the GoC is contemplating weren't really emphasized in public discussion - so obviously not particularly necessary - at any time prior to merely a couple of months ago.  Now they are.  Be harder to convince people the changes are merited if the GoC declared, "OK, crisis over, blockades cleared, EA off, back to customary enforcement".

Canada was doing just fine - not perfectly - and now suddenly a ball needs to be advanced because some politicians sense that an opportunity to advance it has opened.  I say, wait 6 months, and try and sell the case to Canadians then.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/governor-general-no-confidence-1.6360883


Article 5 Bill of Rights 1689, which explicitly declared the "That it is the Right of the Subjects to petition the King and all Commitments and Prosecutions for such Petitioning are Illegall."

 Article 13 of the 1689 Bill of Rights "And that for Redresse of all Grievances and for the amending strengthening and preserveing of the Lawes Parlyaments ought to be held frequently." indicating that the right to petition is cognate with the right to redress of grievance in Parliament.

I suggest that the Governor-General as the Monarchy's representative should expect to be directly petitioned.  She may choose to act or ignore on the advice of her Prime Minister, while sitting as Governor in Council, but ultimately, in Canada, it is the Governor-General that, in law, is the final arbiter acting in place of the Monarch, in loco Regis.

And, despite the discomfort it may cause the Government of the Day there is a right for Canadians to petition the Crown.  In this case the Crown is represented in the person of the Governor-General.

Again, she can choose to act or not act on the advice of her prime minister but there is nothing incorrect about sending a petition to the Governor-General.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> But that's not how our parliamentary system is designed.  If the other side's ideas were "worthy", they'd be government.  Any time that I hear a politician proclaim that he/she is willing to work with the other side, my brain automatically translates it to "I'll work with you but I'm still in charge, shut-up and let me do what I think is right want and I won't fuck you around too much".



And yet our working model, Westminster manages to incorporate an all party House of Commons Defence Committee and an all party Intelligence and Security Committee.



Defence Committee
https://members.parliament.uk/member/1487/contact
Rt Hon Tobias Ellwood MP
Conservative
Bournemouth East
 Chair 
Commons

Stuart Anderson MP
Conservative
Wolverhampton South West
Commons

Sarah Atherton MP
Conservative
Wrexham
Commons

Dave Doogan MP
Scottish National Party
Angus
Commons

Richard Drax MP
Conservative
South Dorset
Commons

Rt Hon Mark Francois MP
Conservative
Rayleigh and Wickford
Commons

Rt Hon Kevan Jones MP
Labour
North Durham
Commons

Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck MP
Labour
South Shields
Commons

Gavin Robinson MP
Democratic Unionist Party
Belfast East
Commons
https://members.parliament.uk/member/318/contact
Rt Hon John Spellar MP
Labour
https://members.parliament.uk/member/318/contact
https://members.parliament.uk/member/318/contact
Intelligence and Security Committee





__





						Committee Membership – Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament
					






					isc.independent.gov.uk
				





Other options for secure cross party work

The Privy Council

The Lords (Senate)


At the other end of the spectrum of accountability the main parties have their own party committees that hold their members, including their prime minister of the day, to account.

The Conservatives have their 1922 Committee that currently is putting pressure on Boris Johnston, and historically has removed sitting prime ministers.  Labour has similar capabilities to oust their leaders as Jeremy Corbin found out.

The Canadian system is not broken.  But it is definitely bent.


----------



## Mick (23 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> If the information is real so super duper secret - then perhaps the Canadian Government should have a House and Senate Intelligence panel where those members are read into programs.   That way a limited (and security cleared) members of both the ruling party andthe opposition can have access to the information, and inform their party without divulging sources and scope of the information if there is a credible concern or not.



Since 2018, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians has fulfilled a role similar to what you are suggesting.





__





						National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians (NSICOP)
					






					www.nsicop-cpsnr.ca
				




From the website:

"The _National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act_ mandates the Committee to review:


the legislative, regulatory, policy, administrative and financial framework for national security and intelligence;
any activity carried out by a department that relates to national security or intelligence, unless the activity is an ongoing operation and the appropriate Minister determines that the review would be injurious to national security;
any matter relating to national security or intelligence that a minister of the Crown refers to the Committee.
Committee members come from both Houses of Parliament. All hold Top Secret security clearances and are permanently bound to secrecy under the Security of Information Act. Members swear an oath or solemn affirmation indicating that they will obey and uphold the laws of Canada, and not communicate or inappropriately use information obtained in confidence as part their responsibilities on the Committee. On this basis, members are able to receive classified briefings and materials related to the conduct of the Committee’s work."

Current membership is comprised of 6 MPs (4 LPC, 1 NDP, 1 BQ), and 3 Senators (1 each from Canadian, Progressive, and Independent Senator  Groups).

It should be noted that although composed of parliamentarians, this committee is not a committee of Parliament, and is housed in the executive branch, reporting to the PM.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Article 5 Bill of Rights 1689, which explicitly declared the "That it is the Right of the Subjects to petition the King and all Commitments and Prosecutions for such Petitioning are Illegall."
> 
> Article 13 of the 1689 Bill of Rights "And that for Redresse of all Grievances and for the amending strengthening and preserveing of the Lawes Parlyaments ought to be held frequently." indicating that the right to petition is cognate with the right to redress of grievance in Parliament.
> 
> ...


Petitions are fine.  What the GG is saying is that people can’t send in and register votes of no confidence that would lead to dissolution.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Petitions are fine.  What the GG is saying is that people can’t send in and register votes of no confidence that would lead to dissolution.



Sure they can. They are free to request the GG dissolve parliament at any time.  She is free to ignore the request.  Or not.









						Gough Whitlam - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




"Get your dungarees off, Gough."


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> Since 2018, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians has fulfilled a role similar to what you are suggesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that is where I conclude that the Canadian system is not broken.  Just, as I said, bent.

The Brits have this silly notion that Parliament is sovereign.  And the PM serves at Parliament's pleasure.  Her Majesty concurring.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Sure they can. They are free to request the GG dissolve parliament at any time.  She is free to ignore the request.  Or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol. Ok.  That isn’t what they are doing.  They are trying to register votes of no confidence.  There is no mechanism in place for that.   They can petion sure but that isn’t what the GG is trying to clarify. 

Just more protesters not actually understanding the law and being given false info.  This isn’t recall legislation like in the US.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Lol. Ok.  That isn’t what they are doing.  They are trying to register votes of no confidence.  There is no mechanism in place for that.   They can petion sure but that isn’t what the GG is trying to clarify.
> 
> Just more protesters not actually understanding the law and being given false info.  This isn’t recall legislation like in the US.



So like:



Halifax Tar said:


> Pardon me if I don't think the public took enough civics classes.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Lol. Ok.  That isn’t what they are doing.  They are trying to register votes of no confidence.  There is no mechanism in place for that.   They can petion sure but that isn’t what the GG is trying to clarify.
> 
> Just more protesters not actually understanding the law and being given false info.  This isn’t recall legislation like in the US.



I reckon that there is an honest debate on intentions that  the pair of us can have.  I doubt if we will find agreement beyond agreeing to set the question to the side.

Cheers.


----------



## Kilted (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Sure they can. They are free to request the GG dissolve parliament at any time.  She is free to ignore the request.  Or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It really wouldn't surprise me if we see a Simon-Trudeau Affair in the next few years, but it won't be over this, at least not yey.


----------



## QV (23 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So like:


You aren't doing it properly so your opinion is invalid.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

What civics classes do you think exist in the public schools?  When I went through, it was after everything was collapsed into "Social Studies".  "How things work" is (or was) in there, but was just one topic among many, easily forgotten after retaining enough to pass the test.


----------



## lenaitch (23 Feb 2022)

From what little I know of them, the standing committees in both the US and GB seem workable, and perhaps born out of histories that have seen a steady diet of security threats.  Ours seems rather toothless, or perhaps contemplative is the better word, and at the pleasure of the PMO.  One would think that, if it was seen as dynamic and the in-House resource to consider all manners of national security, it would have been written into the Emergencies Act.  If such a committee could report to Parliament and say 'we have seen the evidence and it is credible', and Parliament accepts it, we might have something.  So long as  parliamentarians expect to know, interpret and debate the  evidence, there will be a problem.  Parliament is ultimately accountable (actually, in the case of the Emergencies Act orders, it is Cabinet, the motion debates are just support), but they, and the parties, need to use and trust the institutions they have.

I can't imagine the likes of Cheryl Gallant or Randy Hillier (ok, provincial but still) given access to the launch codes.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Cheryl Gallant shouldn’t even be given luggage lock codes.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

Security committees are worthless unless they play straight all the time.  And playing straight will from time to time be inconvenient for at least one party.  And since we don't have a history of grave international security threats, there is no institutional memory for playing straight against one's political interests.  Even the US has problems with committees that leak damaging or fanciful information.


----------



## Kilted (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> They shouldn’t.  Besides the Liberal senators aren’t part of the caucus anymore. Lol.


I wish the Senate would say no more often.


----------



## Mick (23 Feb 2022)

I'll just note that the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency _does _report to Parliament, and is intended to complement the work of the NSICOP.

As an independent agency reporting to Parliament, perhaps it may be seen to be less vulnerable to potential partisan abuse or political interference.









						Home - NSIRA
					






					nsira-ossnr.gc.ca


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> From what little I know of them, the standing committees in both the US and GB seem workable, and perhaps born out of histories that have seen a steady diet of security threats.  Ours seems rather toothless, or perhaps contemplative is the better word, and at the pleasure of the PMO.  One would think that, if it was seen as dynamic and the in-House resource to consider all manners of national security, it would have been written into the Emergencies Act.  If such a committee could report to Parliament and say 'we have seen the evidence and it is credible', and Parliament accepts it, we might have something.  So long as  parliamentarians expect to know, interpret and debate the  evidence, there will be a problem.  Parliament is ultimately accountable (actually, in the case of the Emergencies Act orders, it is Cabinet, the motion debates are just support), but they, and the parties, need to use and trust the institutions they have.
> 
> I can't imagine the likes of Cheryl Gallant or Randy Hillier (ok, provincial but still) given access to the launch codes.


And as you have noted at least part of the problem ca ne resolved by the Commons and the Senate electing cross party members that all members consider honourable and trustworthy.   And be entirely independent of the PMO.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I wish the Senate would say no more often.


I don’t think the senate should get in the way of government agenda but they should return bad legislation and things like unnecessary motions like the EA.


----------



## Kilted (23 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> What civics classes do you think exist in the public schools?  When I went through, it was after everything was collapsed into "Social Studies".  "How things work" is (or was) in there, but was just one topic among many, easily forgotten after retaining enough to pass the test.


I think that a lot of people have realized after this and over the course of the pandemic how little the population understands the law and how government works.  People think we have this magic thing called the "Charter" which means that they can do whatever they want without consequences.  A lot of people don't realize that Charter rights have limits.  So many people rush to read s. 2, before they read s. 1.  I really hope the provinces look into updating their curriculums.


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I think that a lot of people have realized after this and over the course of the pandemic how little the population understands the law and how government works.  People think we have this magic thing called the "Charter" which means that they can do whatever they want without consequences.  A lot of people don't realize that Charter rights have limits.  So many people rush to read s. 2, before they read s. 1.  I really hope the provinces look into updating their curriculums.


I'm sure political reeducation is high on the priority list.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I think that a lot of people have realized after this and over the course of the pandemic how little the population understands the law and how government works.  People think we have this magic thing called the "Charter" which means that they can do whatever they want without consequences.  A lot of people don't realize that Charter rights have limits.  So many people rush to read s. 2, before they read s. 1.  I really hope the provinces look into updating their curriculums.


Part of the issue is people making crap up as well.  As noted maybe the problem is a lack of education in civics but more so I think it’s a lack of properly teaching critical thinking and how to actually research something we might not understand.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Part of the issue is people making crap up as well.  As noted maybe the problem is a lack of education in civics but more so I think it’s a lack of properly teaching critical thinking and how to actually research something we might not understand.



To me the big problem is people who cant delineate our government structure, electoral system, legislation and laws from the Americans.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (23 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> I think that a lot of people have realized after this and over the course of the pandemic how little the population understands the law and how government works.  People think we have this magic thing called the "Charter" which means that they can do whatever they want without consequences.  A lot of people don't realize that Charter rights have limits.  So many people rush to read s. 2, before they read s. 1.  I really hope the provinces look into updating their curriculums.


Ontario brought in a Grade 10 half-credit for Civics in the early 2000s, along with another half credit for Career Studies. I took both, and it was a great start to understanding how our system works and how it affected our day to day lives.

What was more beneficial was an elective course I took called "Canadian Law Studies." It helped further examine our legal system and how it related to the Charter, Parliament, the SCC, and what is involved in the Judicial process from cradle to grave. Even as a Senior NCO conducting a UDI, I have dusted off the ol' textbook at times.

I honestly think that if we put more emphasis on people learning Canadian Law and Civics, half of these yahoos would have sulked away to their basements 2 days into this thing.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

There's also a lot of misunderstanding of the ways in which the US works differently than Canada.

Less important than educating the people to understand government, is educating government to not openly despise part of the people.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

> more emphasis on people learning Canadian Law and Civics



Educators pay a lot of lip service to the idea of "socializing" children (as in, preparing them to enter society as reasonable people).  Obviously a solid grounding in how society works should be part of that.  Not sure it's popular among educators, though.


----------



## MilEME09 (23 Feb 2022)

__





						Discover Popular Videos | Facebook
					

Facebook Watch is the place to enjoy videos and shows together. Find the latest trending videos, discover original shows and checkout what's going on with your favorite creators.




					fb.watch


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> There's also a lot of misunderstanding of the ways in which the US works differently than Canada.
> 
> Less important than educating the people to understand government, is educating government to not openly despise part of the people.



This sums it up nicely 

“Canada is not the party. Its the apartment above the party.”

―Craig Ferguson


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Part of the issue is people making crap up as well.  As noted maybe the problem is a lack of education in civics but more so I think it’s a lack of properly teaching critical thinking and how to actually research something we might not understand.



We were doing so well and then you had to go and spoil it all by saying that ..... Sorry wrong song.  Anyway.

Civics.

Teach the rules of the game.  End of.

Edit - well maybe not end of.  Some lessons on how we got to these rules might be useful.

What to think about these rules?  Absolutely off limits in the Civics class.

That debate can be had in a separate debating class with the instructor assigning positions and teams.


----------



## Kilted (23 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To me the big problem is people who cant delineate our government structure, electoral system, legislation and laws from the Americans.


Maybe that starts with regulating how much American content can be aired in Canada, similar to how music is played.  Although, things like Netflix would probably negate those efforts.  Maybe if our media is going to focus on foreign countries it should be Westminster ones like the UK, Australia, and New Zealand.   I'm not saying that CANZUK would fix all our problems....


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Ontario brought in a Grade 10 half-credit for Civics in the early 2000s, along with another half credit for Career Studies. I took both, and it was a great start to understanding how our system works and how it affected our day to day lives.
> 
> What was more beneficial was an elective course I took called "Canadian Law Studies." It helped further examine our legal system and how it related to the Charter, Parliament, the SCC, and what is involved in the Judicial process from cradle to grave. Even as a Senior NCO conducting a UDI, I have dusted off the ol' textbook at times.
> 
> I honestly think that if we put more emphasis on people learning Canadian Law and Civics, half of these yahoos would have sulked away to their basements 2 days into this thing.



Right up until there.

I find yahoos in both the extra-parliamentary government and opposition parties.  They both deserve the same leeway and the same right to be not just wrong but silly.  They also deserve to be treated equally under the law without fear or favour. IE, the government should not take council of its fears and choose to favour one approach over another simply because they fear the consequences.

Caledonia, for example, and Ottawa should be managed identically


*2006  *Six Nations people occupy the Douglas Creek Estates (DCE) subdivision, renaming it Kanonhstaton (Mohawk for “The Protected Place”). It becomes one of the longest, most expensive and bitterest First Nations land occupations in Canadian history, marked by violent police raid and clashes between Six Nations people and Caledonians.
 Ontario buys the land from Henco Industries to cool tensions. The land remains in Ontario’s name held in trust.
*2007-08  *Canada, Ontario and Six Nations hold talks on the conflict. The traditional system, the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Chiefs Council (HCCC), leads the way.
*2009  *Talks sputter. The Six Nations reactivate their accounting claim, led by the elected council. A trial is scheduled for October 2022, the council says.
*2013-14  *Direct action, protests, blockades and occupations resume. The Confederacy constructs a large gate, emblazoned with purple and white Haudenosaunee flags across it, at the entrance to Kanonhstaton.
 Community consultation rejects McKenzie Meadows project. Elected council decides not to support it.
*2015  *McKenzie Meadows developer Foxgate Developments acquires land from a numbered company.


This concrete road block was one of many put in place in response to a police raid on the McKenzie Meadows land back occupation camp. Photo: Brett Forester/APTN
*McKenzie Meadows dispute*


*July 19, 2020  *Six Nations members occupy a construction site at 1535 McKenzie Rd., renaming it 1492 Land Back Lane.
 The subdivision is across town but linked to Kanonhstaton through an hydro and pipeline easement access road.
*July 30  *Foxgate Developments obtains an injunction ordering the camp dismantled.
*Aug. 5  *The Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) enforce the injunction. Police use a taser and rubber bullets to clear the property and arrest nine people.
 Six Nations people respond with a tire fire and barricade outside the gates of Kanonhstaton. People shut down CN tracks and blockade the Highway 6 bypass.
*Aug. 7  *Justice John Harper extends Foxgate’s injunction. He also grants an injunction to Haldimand County that orders the road blocks dismantled.
*Aug. 15  *Confederacy chiefs publicly support the occupation.
*Aug. 19  *Federal ministers Marc Miller and Carolyn Bennett offer to resume negotiations in a letter sent to traditional and elected chiefs.
*Aug. 21  *The community dismantles most of the barricades. The Highway 6 bypass reopens. Trains start moving.
 People erect a support camp on Kanonhstaton, across the street from access road into McKenzie Meadows.
*Aug. 22  *The last of the main blockade outside Kanonhstaton is removed.
*Aug. 25  *Court extends both injunctions. Spokesperson for the action Skyler Williams is identified as a “protest leader” and named on the injunction.
*Sept. 16  *Arrests continue. OPP release the names of 22 people charged in connection to the occupation or blockades.
*Oct. 9  *Court extends injunctions again. A police affidavit says police are wary of removing camp occupants a second time, calling force “a blunt instrument that cannot resolve the issues underlying land disputes of this nature.”
 Harper gives Williams, who self-represents in court, an ultimatum: Dismantle the camp and be allowed to participate in future court hearings, or flout the order and be preventing from attending.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> Maybe that starts with regulating how much American content can be aired in Canada, similar to how music is played.  Although, things like Netflix would probably negate those efforts.  Maybe if our media is going to focus on foreign countries it should be Westminster ones like the UK, Australia, and New Zealand.   I'm not saying that CANZUK would fix all our problems....


Wrong answer.

Censorship is never the right answer.

Sorry.


----------



## Kilted (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Wrong answer.
> 
> Censorship is never the right answer.
> 
> Sorry.


That's not censorship, that promoting Canadian content.  It's already done for radio stations.


----------



## brihard (23 Feb 2022)

There definitely needs to be more civics education. I also did the Ontairo grade 10 civics class- it was a half credit, so it shared a one semester class with Career Studies. I just took a look at the current Ontario curriculum and it doesn't look like it's changed a great deal. Past grade 10 there's no mandatory study in law or politics. I personally did end up taking university prep law courses in grades 11 and 12, which I think served me pretty well, but most students won't.

It wouldn't be a terrible thing if there were another mandatory course giving grade 12 students more insight into Canadian federal and provincial civics in their last year of school, shortly before they can begin voting...

Canada has a massive deficit in Canadians' understanding of governmental institutions, how power transfers, how law is made and enforced... This needs to be addressed.


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## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Kilted said:


> That's not censorship, that promoting Canadian content.  It's already done for radio stations.



With respect - if you are deciding how many hours are to be devoted to Cause A then you are deciding how many hours Cause B can't have.  That is a form of censorship when you are talking about a public platform.  Far better, especially when talking about public, rather than private, platforms to let the aggrieved vent.


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## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> There definitely needs to be more civics education. I also did the Ontairo grade 10 civics class- it was a half credit, so it shared a one semester class with Career Studies. I just took a look at the current Ontario curriculum and it doesn't look like it's changed a great deal. Past grade 10 there's no mandatory study in law or politics. I personally did end up taking university prep law courses in grades 11 and 12, which I think served me pretty well, but most students won't.
> 
> It wouldn't be a terrible thing if there were another mandatory course giving grade 12 students more insight into Canadian federal and provincial civics in their last year of school, shortly before they can begin voting...
> 
> Canada has a massive deficit in Canadians' understanding of governmental institutions, how power transfers, how law is made and enforced... This needs to be addressed.



In full agreement.

And, again, I would argue, the tying of the courses to History.  Warts and all.  Because how can we understand why these rules are in place if we don't understand the contexts in which they originated.  Otherwise they can appear arbitrary and confused.  And that is not a great way to build respect for the law and the system.   Or build an understanding as to how to change the rules while working within the system.


----------



## brihard (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> In full agreement.
> 
> And, again, I would argue, the tying of the courses to History.  Warts and all.  Because how can we understand why these rules are in place if we don't understand the contexts in which they originated.  Otherwise they can appear arbitrary and confused.  And that is not a great way to build respect for the law and the system.   Or build an understanding as to how to change the rules while working within the system.


Yup, agreed. Our system has been very, very good for a lot of people. It did so, at times, on the backs of others. We need to be honest about the shitty things that have happened as state policy, partly to fix what can be fixed and partly to avoid it happening again. Part of meaningfully teaching on democracy has to include an acknowledgment and exploration of how it took a long time for our franchise to become as inclusive as it is now.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

Mick said:


> I'll just note that the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency _does _report to Parliament, and is intended to complement the work of the NSICOP.
> 
> As an independent agency reporting to Parliament, perhaps it may be seen to be less vulnerable to potential partisan abuse or political interference.
> 
> ...


Not unreasonable, IFF (in the Comp Sci/Eng sense of ‘IF & ONLY IF’) NSIRA has access to the interacted Parliamentary Report on the 2022 Use of the Emergencies Act and other related, potentially classified material.



Remius said:


> I don’t think the senate should get in the way of government agenda but they should return bad legislation and things like unnecessary motions like the EA.


By ‘get in the way’ do you mean that the Senate inclusion in the approval process of the Emergencies Act should be removed?



Halifax Tar said:


> To me the big problem is people who cant delineate our government structure, electoral system, legislation and laws from the Americans.


Delta between Canada and America is less of a concern IMO, than Canadians even knowing the characteristics of their own Government (executive), Parliament (representative and legislative) and the Courts (judiciary).


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> There definitely needs to be more civics education. I also did the Ontairo grade 10 civics class- it was a half credit, so it shared a one semester class with Career Studies. I just took a look at the current Ontario curriculum and it doesn't look like it's changed a great deal. Past grade 10 there's no mandatory study in law or politics. I personally did end up taking university prep law courses in grades 11 and 12, which I think served me pretty well, but most students won't.
> 
> It wouldn't be a terrible thing if there were another mandatory course giving grade 12 students more insight into Canadian federal and provincial civics in their last year of school, shortly before they can begin voting...
> 
> Canada has a massive deficit in Canadians' understanding of governmental institutions, how power transfers, how law is made and enforced... This needs to be addressed.


I went to French school outside Quebec.  We studied politics and civics a lot.   Of course it was heavily slanted from a francophone point of view but it was still a good education in our institutions and especially their history.


----------



## GK .Dundas (23 Feb 2022)

So very much yes!!
What this  country really needs is a  decent civics course !
I have worked elections as security for civic,provincial and federal levels. I can tell you horror stories.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> By ‘get in the way’ do you mean that the Senate inclusion in the approval process of the Emergencies Act should be removed?


quite the opposite.

What I meant is, that the senate should not impede legislation derived from an elected government agenda that was campaigned on or voted on.  I’d prefer it still use checks and balances but not be some sort of roadblock along political lines. 

They should absolutely be involved in something like the EA or potentially bad legislation.  That is what I would like to see them do and become relevant again.


----------



## Scott (23 Feb 2022)

Pat King taking some civics classes sounds like something for our own dear academics here to take charge of.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (23 Feb 2022)

One of the biggest issues of this protest was the fact the protesters had and have no clue how Canadian Government works, how and what laws are applied in Canada.

Example, you cannot call the Governor General's office and ask her to change the ruling government because we do not like how they do things. We do not have a citizen recall system in place.  We have to wait for an election or confidence vote to take place.

In Ontario if you are pulled over by Police for any reason while driving you must produce ID and a driver's license, proof of ownership and insurance. It is in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.  Passengers do not have to show ID, also in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.

We do not have the 5th Amendment right,  we do not have a Bill of Rights and Freedoms in Canada.  We have the Constitution Of Canada, with the Charter of Rights.  Right to bear Arms, is an American thing and those rights end at the border, we do not have Bail Enforcement Officers with more powers than Police in Canada. 

Most Canadians do not know their rights.

American Rights after arrest
*You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions*. Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future.

Canadian rights after arrest

The Canadian Charter warning reads (varies by police service): "You are under arrest for _________ (charge); do you understand? You have the *right* to retain and instruct counsel without delay. We will provide you with a toll-free telephone lawyer referral service, if you do not have your own lawyer.

Very different rights if you read them and understand them.

The mandates the Protesters wanted changed were a lot of Provincial Powers not Federal Powers

Health care and such falls under the mandate of the Provinces, so asking the Federal Government to toss the mask rules is not in their powers.

Border Crossing rules are a Federal jurisdiction, but Canada only controls the rules once you step across the border,  Canada cannot change the rules in another Country. 

The Ambassador Bridge, it is one of a few privately owned border crossings in North America.  It is a Private business.  Blocking it can be a trespassing issue.

In the States the Governor can call up the State National Guard to help with law enforcement. Mayors can request the National Guard.

In Canada the Provinces can request or requisition Canadian Armed Forces to assist in emergency situations,  but they cannot be used in law enforcement roles unless the Federal Government enacts the Emergency Powers Act.   

These sort of things need to be taught in school, and need to be explained in simple terms so the average person without a law degree can understand the basics.

I remember following a court case in the UK and the person was requesting their 5th Amendment rights and the UK judge had to explain that his courtroom was not in the USA and was not the TV show Law and Order. The person should speak with his lawyer before he says anything more on the stand.

Just because you see it on tv, does not make it right.  Just because you heard an explanation of the law, does not mean that is the law of the land you are in.  Just because you want something changed does not mean you waving a sign and honking a horn will make it happen.

Side note

The Government of Canada has 2 hammers in its tool box called the Emergency Power Act. This time the government picked the smaller hammer. The police once given proper marching orders,  handled the situation very well. No one was shot, no one was killed, every one arrested was treated properly and given a hearing in a timely manner or released.

No one was frozen by the use of water canons like they use in Europe,  no one was run over by tanks , no one strip searched on the side of the road.  Everyone was treated fairly. 
just my opinions
opie


----------



## suffolkowner (23 Feb 2022)

There are just way too many elective courses available in high school. They divert resources away from the core responsibilities especially since there are only 4 years now in some kind of pathetic attempt at tempting people to remain in school and graduate


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> There are just way too many elective courses available in high school. They divert resources away from the core responsibilities especially since there are only 4 years now in some kind of pathetic attempt at tempting people to remain in school and graduate


Civics should start before high school.


----------



## Spencer100 (23 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Side note
> 
> The Government of Canada has 2 hammers in its tool box called the Emergency Power Act. This time the government picked the smaller hammer. The police once given proper marching orders,  handled the situation very well. No one was shot, no one was killed, every one arrested was treated properly and given a hearing in a timely manner or released.
> 
> ...


No they used the BIGGEST hammer of them all. Control of the financial system.  That is the real big gun.  Control of money and data.  Data is the power.  CSIS paid the hacker to get the names.  Data to CRA cross reference to the Banks, insurance and others with the RCMP.   No court orders, no oversight, and no transparency.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Ah so CSIS told you that eh?


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup, agreed. Our system has been very, very good for a lot of people. It did so, at times, on the backs of others. We need to be honest about the shitty things that have happened as state policy, partly to fix what can be fixed and partly to avoid it happening again. Part of meaningfully teaching on democracy has to include an acknowledgment and exploration of how it took a long time for our franchise to become as inclusive as it is now.




As a Professional (Occasional) Scot I find the 1619 debate in the States interesting.  

I offer 1606 - courtesy of a Scottish King and a Scottish Parliament









						Liberating Scotland's "slaves of the soil"
					

The dark labour history of Scottish coal mines



					magazine.cim.org
				








__





						Colliers and Salters (Scotland) Act 1775 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




It took until 1799 before  Scottish miners, and their families, were liberated from permanent indenture (ie slavery)

This was despite findings in England in 1569 that England didn't recognize slavery (Cartwright's Russian), in 1772 (Somersett Case) and in Scotland in 1778 (Knight Case).  Even in Upper Canada, Simcoe abolished slavery before the Scots miners were ultimately "freed" - to become wage-slaves.

In fairness to the James the Sixth - he was only following English law.  England had allowed English Vagabonds to be enslaved since 1547 (although permanent indenture sounds better).  And then there was that Press Gang stuff the RN did... but I'm wandering too much now.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> What I meant is, that the senate should not impede legislation derived from an elected government agenda that was campaigned on or voted on.  I’d prefer it still use checks and balances but not be some sort of roadblock along political lines.


But the EA legislation is clear; ie. both Houses are required for approval of the Declaration:



> *58* (1) Subject to subsection (4), a motion for confirmation of a declaration of emergency, signed by a minister of the Crown, together with an explanation of the reasons for issuing the declaration and a report on any consultation with the lieutenant governors in council of the provinces with respect to the declaration,* shall be laid before each House of Parliament *within seven sitting days after the declaration is issued.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

> The Government of Canada has 2 hammers in its tool box called the Emergency Power Act. This time the government picked the smaller hammer. The police once given proper marching orders,  handled the situation very well. No one was shot, no one was killed, every one arrested was treated properly and given a hearing in a timely manner or released.
> 
> No one was frozen by the use of water canons like they use in Europe,   no one was run over by tanks , no one strip searched on the side of the road.  Everyone was treated fairly.
> just my opinions



There are at least 3 hammers; one is "ordinary powers".  The police don't shoot anyone, people are arrested properly and given hearings etc, no-one gets run over by tanks, etc.  Governments use ordinary powers pretty much all the rest of the time, dealing with much more serious crimes committed by activists, protestors, domestic terrorists, etc.

Governments created their own misfortunes by not reacting appropriately and in a timely fashion with the powers they already had (which have been used successfully in the past, and were in some cases eventually used successfully this time).  Then the essence of their argument was: "(because we f*cked this up,) we need emergency powers now", only they left out the first part.  And the essential aims could all have been met without resorting to declaring an emergency.  And "we f*cked this up" isn't an excuse.  It just means they need to suck up their failures and work harder.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> quite the opposite.
> 
> What I meant is, that the senate should not impede legislation derived from an elected government agenda that was campaigned on or voted on.  I’d prefer it still use checks and balances but not be some sort of roadblock along political lines.
> 
> They should absolutely be involved in something like the EA or potentially bad legislation.  That is what I would like to see them do and become relevant again.



The Senate, should be able to trigger an election, with the consent of the Commons, if they return the bill to the Commons for reconsideration.  All the Commons would have to do would be pass a motion of Non-Confidence in the government.

But they can do that already can't they?

We really shouldn't be afraid of elections, or consider them an imposition or unnecessary expense.  I would like to see them happen frequently.  Until the government (of any stripe) starts to understand it is important to work with the people and not across them.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Civics should start before high school.


No, I think age 13 or 14 is a suitable age to get started with the discussion.  Before that I feel that it can take on the sense of indoctrination.  Not a big fan of indoctrination.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> But the EA legislation is clear; ie. both Houses are required for approval of the Declaration:


We are misunderstanding each other.  How about this:  I AGREE.  Clear enough?  Maybe use my entire quite next time.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> No, I think age 13 or 14 is a suitable age to get started with the discussion.  Before that I feel that it can take on the sense of indoctrination.  Not a big fan of indoctrination.


I learned about civics in grade 5 onward.   How parliament works, the BNA etc etc.  Not sure how that is indoctrination.  Indoctrination was the Lord’s Prayer in kindergarten.  But that is another discussion.


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## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> We are misunderstanding each other.  How about this:  I AGREE.  Clear enough?  Maybe use my entire quite next time.


Fair enough, I incorrectly read your portion I quoted as qualifying the Senate’s place in the EA approval process.  

Separately but related, perhaps if we had had some of that Sunny WaysTM promised electoral reform, there could also have been electorate accountability of the Upper House as well…


----------



## rmc_wannabe (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Right up until there.
> 
> I find yahoos in both the extra-parliamentary government and opposition parties.  They both deserve the same leeway and the same right to be not just wrong but silly.  They also deserve to be treated equally under the law without fear or favour. IE, the government should not take council of its fears and choose to favour one approach over another simply because they fear the consequences.



Oh believe me, I am of the belief that there are yahoos on both sides of the political spectrum. As much as the "Freedom Convoy" were out of line, I have seen the G20 and Pipeline protests devolve into madness as well. Stupid people gonna stupid regardless where they make camp politically.

The law should be applied uniformly, with due process and respect for rights to assembly, association, protest, thought, opinion, belief, et al respected. as soon as you're crossing out of that territory, you face the consequences of your actions. End of story. 

Where I see the conflict arising is that a lot of these groups are both funded and led by outsiders. They have no concept, understanding, or respect for our laws and governance. They know what will get them responses, and thus, more funding to pursue their aims. Hard to get FOX News to follow your protest if you're talking about Section 7 of the Charter. Much like the Rockefeller Organization doesn't care about First Nations issues, they just don't want another competitor. 

Hearing people spout off about "Miranda rights" or "First / Second Amendment rights" in a Canadian context are like people pronouncing the 2nd T in Toronto. "You're not from here, are ya buds?"


----------



## Spencer100 (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah so CSIS told you that eh?


that's the part you took out of what I said.  CSIS of course did not say that.  The guy who did it said that.  It's on the net I will let you google it. I can't watch that again. The guy is a semi famous hacker he claims to be the or one of the founder of Anonymous.  Even if he was not paid by CSIS the Canadian government is using the data which is the part I was trying to say is the problem.  No oversight, No court orders, No transparency. 

Even as a type this the government is telling the Senate that a joint House/Senate committee for the EM act with have to been sworn to secrecy and even then will not be shown the data or the intelligence reports.


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## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Oh believe me, I am of the belief that there are yahoos on both sides of the political spectrum. As much as the "Freedom Convoy" were out of line, I have seen the G20 and Pipeline protests devolve into madness as well. Stupid people gonna stupid regardless where they make camp politically.
> 
> The law should be applied uniformly, with due process and respect for rights to assembly, association, protest, thought, opinion, belief, et al respected. as soon as you're crossing out of that territory, you face the consequences of your actions. End of story.
> 
> ...



The outsider funding argument is also a historical argument.  It predates the nation-state and the Reformation by centuries, if not millenia.


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## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> that's the part you took out of what I said.  CSIS of course did not say that.  The guy who did it said that.  It's on the net I will let you google it. I can't watch that again. The guy is a semi famous hacker he claims to be the or one of the founder of Anonymous.  Even if he was not paid by CSIS the Canadian government is using the data which is the part I was trying to say is the problem.  No oversight, No court orders, No transparency.
> 
> Even as a type this the government is telling the Senate that a joint House/Senate committee for the EM act with have to been sworn to secrecy and even then will not be shown the data or the intelligence reports.


Well yes since it leads to the rest of your statement. 

By all accounts this was not a sophisticated hack.  And why would CSIS buy it?   It was open source for a bit before it was taken down.  And they gave it to the media. 

“It’s on the net”.   Lots of things, as we have seen are on the net.  

CSIS buying this info seems odd at best given how this went down.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

Well.  "Outsider funding" was common during the Cold War; we didn't sh!t our drawers and declare emergencies to deal with it.


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## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Not sure how much this is real but…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496588455035424776


----------



## MilEME09 (23 Feb 2022)

'Immediate emergency situation is over': PM Trudeau revokes Emergencies Act
					

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the government will end the use of the Emergencies Act after it was invoked just over a week ago in response to the ongoing trucker convoy blockades and protests.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Ctv Is reporting it as well


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## blacktriangle (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure how much this is real but…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496588455035424776


The Senate just mentioned it as well.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

If true, good for PM JT.


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## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If true, good for PM JT.


In 60 days they will start an inquiry.


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## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If true, good for PM JT.











						CTV News | Watch news from Canada and around the world
					

Watch LIVE events from Canada and around the world. Live breaking news, national news, sports, business, entertainment, health, politics and more from CTV News. Daily top stories and updated news headlines. CTV National News with Omar Sachedina, CTV News Channel and more.




					www.ctvnews.ca


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## FormerHorseGuard (23 Feb 2022)

My point was the bigger hammer was sending troops on to the streets. 
which would of made us look like 3rd world country in my opinion

Never liked the idea of putting troops on the street to do law enforcement work, made me uncomfortable as a soldier, taking up arms against fellow Canadians.


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## Kilted (23 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> One of the biggest issues of this protest was the fact the protesters had and have no clue how Canadian Government works, how and what laws are applied in Canada.
> 
> Example, you cannot call the Governor General's office and ask her to change the ruling government because we do not like how they do things. We do not have a citizen recall system in place.  We have to wait for an election or confidence vote to take place.
> 
> ...


What is this Emergency Power Act you are talking about? I can find no record of any Federal act under that name?


----------



## lenaitch (23 Feb 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> One of the biggest issues of this protest was the fact the protesters had and have no clue how Canadian Government works, how and what laws are applied in Canada.
> 
> Example, you cannot call the Governor General's office and ask her to change the ruling government because we do not like how they do things. We do not have a citizen recall system in place.  We have to wait for an election or confidence vote to take place.
> 
> ...



A few points:

In Ontario you have to produce a d/l OR identification (no d/l will still get you a ticket) to avoid being arrested.  There is nothing in the HTA about passengers one way or the other.  Police cannot 'demand' passengers identify themselves under the HTA, but nothing prevents them from asking.  In 30+ years (not all road time), I think I was told to pound sand twice, although I suspect it would be prevalent now.

In Canada, you do have the right to remain silent, under a couple of sections of the Charter, primarily Sec. 7, and supported by a number of SCC cases both pre and post Charter.  While I no longer have a current version of the Standard Police Caution, most services use one that includes a statement that a person may remain silent but anything they say may be used in evidence (or words to that effect).  The US version is not codified in their Bill of Rights either, it evolved from a court ruling interpreting the protection from self-incrimination.


----------



## blacktriangle (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> By all accounts this was not a sophisticated hack.


But still a crime, no?


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> But still a crime, no?


Sure.  I didn’t say otherwise.


----------



## Altair (23 Feb 2022)

Nothing says tyranny like taking away emergency powers early.


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## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Nothing says tyranny like taking away emergency powers early.


You earned that one.


----------



## Altair (23 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> @lenaitch Appreciate your insight, as I do from @brihard.  My most inclusive past involvement supporting LEAs was fairly narrow in scope, but I certainly benefitted from insight gained from a wide range of experience from national-provincial-minor LE, and continue to benefit here.  I don’t want to imply that s.129 is a panacea, but wished to make the (personal) point that I absolutely disagree with those who make such black-and-white statements that the EA was the ONLY means by which this protest situation could have been resolved.  I don’t agree with that position and I have read through the complete *Emergencies Act* several times. (Aside: I fear that we may see some inappropriately creative interpretations by the GiC of Sections 23-25 for extension of measures to suit the Government’s agenda, whatever that turns out to be…if/when it happens, I won’t shy from reminding folks that those were valid concerns by some, well before the slippery slope was slid down…)


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


>



There's lots of time left on the clock.  I see Jean Charest's name being bruited about for the Conservatives.  Can I suggest a paid leave for Trudeau so that John MacKay can get a look in?


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

He didn't revoke powers early.  He waited until after the House vote; powers could reasonably have been revoked before that.  It was politically astute.  Had revocation happened before the House put some kind of stamp of approval on the government's action, a lot more questions would have been left hanging.  Revoking now also terminates the Senate's consideration ("avoid the unnecessary battle").

[Add: also avoids legal challenges.  So the option of pulling the same stunt again remains on the table.]


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure how much this is real but…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496588455035424776


I wonder if they polled the Senate and realized it would be voted down there and thought we better end it now so we look good, rather than be told we are an idiot.


----------



## QV (23 Feb 2022)

Altair said:


> Nothing says tyranny like taking away emergency powers early.


So what was accomplished here? Besides doxing donors?


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I wonder if they polled the Senate and realized it would be voted down there and thought we better end it now so we look good, rather than be told we are an idiot.


I am more convinced that he scored political points by enacting it but now that the actual (or perceived) emergency is gone, he likely loses support the longer he waits to revoke it.

I bet he scores more points with this as well 

But who knows.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> So what was accomplished here? Besides doxing donors?


After days of saying “Do something, stop hiding” he did something.  Then after days of saying “stop going so far” he stopped.

I guess we’ll see where it goes from here.


----------



## RangerRay (23 Feb 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To me the big problem is people who cant delineate our government structure, electoral system, legislation and laws from the Americans.



Maybe people should have been watching “Yes, Minister” instead of “West Wing”?



daftandbarmy said:


> This sums it up nicely
> 
> “Canada is not the party. Its the apartment above the party.”
> 
> ―Craig Ferguson



Feels more like we’re the apartment above the meth lab now.


----------



## OceanBonfire (23 Feb 2022)

And Ontario is lifting their state of emergency:









						Ontario terminates state of emergency put in place for trucker convoy protest
					

Ontario has terminated its state of emergency put in place to help end the truck convoy protest.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				












						Ontario lifts state of emergency as feds ending use of Emergencies Act  | Globalnews.ca
					

The Ontario government says it is lifting the state of emergency that was declared amid the convoy protests.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Feb 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> He didn't revoke powers early.  He waited until after the House vote; powers could reasonably have been revoked before that.  It was politically astute.  Had revocation happened before the House put some kind of stamp of approval on the government's action, a lot more questions would have been left hanging.  Revoking now also terminates the Senate's consideration ("avoid the unnecessary battle").
> 
> [Add: also avoids legal challenges.  So the option of pulling the same stunt again remains on the table.]


Being a laughing stock all over the world when you crave adoration probably didn't feel too good either.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Effing city hall in Ottawa. Instead of trying to recover they pass a decree about redoing Valentine’s Day on 14 march because the city missed Valentine’s Day.

FML.  Time to vote those guys out,


----------



## dangerboy (23 Feb 2022)

Well Mayor Watson has said he is not going to run for re-election in the next election so he will be gone in October.


----------



## kkwd (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Effing city hall in Ottawa. Instead of trying to recover they pass a decree about redoing Valentine’s Day on 14 march because the city missed Valentine’s Day.
> 
> FML.  Time to vote those guys out,


Are you sure you didn't get that from The Beaverton? Sounds like satire to me.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Effing city hall in Ottawa. Instead of trying to recover they pass a decree about redoing Valentine’s Day on 14 march because the city missed Valentine’s Day.
> 
> FML.  Time to vote those guys out,


 I hope there is some results from the LRT inquiry by then, the whole 'Watson club' needs to go just for that. A multi-billion dollar contract, and they weren't concerned that the greasy lawyer wouldn't answer if the recommended winner passed the technical evaluation (hint: they failed hard, and at one point had something in their bid for an electric train that didn't apply to the changes required for the existing diesel line. It was amateur hour.)

Didn't delay the vote, didn't ask for more info, just ignored the reasonable objections from some councillors and pressed on. They are either incompotent, stupid, corrupt, or some combination of all that (and more!) so shouldn't be in office.


----------



## dangerboy (23 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> Are you sure you didn't get that from The Beaverton? Sounds like satire to me.


Unfortunately not, this is a real decision by the city council.  Ottawa is redoing Valentine's Day on March 14 because of the convoy protest


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

kkwd said:


> Are you sure you didn't get that from The Beaverton? Sounds like satire to me.


No was in local news and yes it does lol


----------



## Furniture (23 Feb 2022)

Ottawa City Council is like a circus that won't leave town... The only city council I'm aware of that is even more inept/entertaining is Victoria.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Feb 2022)

Definitely the kind of people on whose behalf Canada should use emergency powers when they fail.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Feb 2022)

I'm not sure it's safe to do a March 14th Valentines day. _They're_ still out there.


----------



## RangerRay (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Effing city hall in Ottawa. Instead of trying to recover they pass a decree about redoing Valentine’s Day on 14 march because the city missed Valentine’s Day.
> 
> FML.  Time to vote those guys out,


Qu’est-ce fuck?


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm not sure it's safe to do a March 14th Valentines day. _They're_ still out there.


All those furriners from Smiths Falls.


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Qu’est-ce fuck?


In there defence they made parking  and transit free for a month but still…V day redo…


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> In there defence they made parking  and transit free for a month but still…V day redo…


…and free rides on OC Transpo, including the O-Train LRT…the SNC Lavelin contracted/led consortium that gave Ottawans the train that spits out axels faster than Elvis Stojko…


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …and free rides on OC Transpo, including the O-Train LRT…the SNC Lavelin contracted/led consortium that gave Ottawans the train that spits out axels faster than Elvis Stojko…


Free transit isn’t a feature.


----------



## Furniture (23 Feb 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …and free rides on OC Transpo, including the O-Train LRT…the SNC Lavelin contracted/led consortium that gave Ottawans the train that spits out axels faster than Elvis Stojko…


I suspect this is one of the few threads that a reference like that will actually stick its landing.


----------



## FSTO (23 Feb 2022)

We could have an entire thread on Ottawa City Hall incompetence and corruption. The folks in Centretown may be cheering the "occupation" if that was the catalyst that exposed and tossed out the Watson Cabal.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

> If I understand the timeline there was an online campaign that became active on January 14 when fundraising commenced.
> 8 days later, *January 22, trucks started rolling from distant locations like Prince Rupert and Smith Falls.
> 
> 7 days later, January 29, the trucks arrived in Ottawa *with, apparently, a useful contingent of local supporters waving them into town.
> ...


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Feb 2022)

Don't forget Chiarelli; the guy is only still on council because council couldn't fire him for being a greasy sex pest, and he is too morally vacant to resign.

If they really wanted to get rid of the protestors, they should have given them free LRT passes. After spending half a day stuck on a train that failed because it is too cold/wet/hot/dry/Tuesday, and stuck in a station that is flooded/full of sewage/covered in ice/outside in the snow they probably would have left on their own accord out of pity to Ottawa public transit users.

The LRT is probably the single biggest impediment to getting people to go back to work downtown (ever). They managed to take an okay and semi reliable bus system and cripple it with a high volume train on a dedicated track, that costs more than the old bus system. Even the beaverton can't write that kind of stuff


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Feb 2022)

A gratuitous Ottawa meme just to cheer things up a bit


----------



## RangerRay (23 Feb 2022)

Ok, let me get this straight…

The government said as late as this morning that the Emergencies Act will remain in place for a while yet…

…this afternoon, some Senators say “Now it’s our turn to look at this and we have questions “…

…and later on the government says “Ok, we don’t need this anymore. We’re done. “

Was the Senate going to turf this motion and the government revoked the motion so it wouldn’t embarrass them?

Or is it all a coincidence?  Enquiring minds want to know!

🤔


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Ok, let me get this straight…
> 
> The government said as late as this morning that the Emergencies Act will remain in place for a while yet…
> 
> ...


I think they said “for as long as it takes or as necessary” but I don’t know 🤷‍♂️


----------



## MilEME09 (23 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Ok, let me get this straight…
> 
> The government said as late as this morning that the Emergencies Act will remain in place for a while yet…
> 
> ...


Can a government fall if a confidence bill is defeated by the senate?


----------



## Remius (23 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Can a government fall if a confidence bill is defeated by the senate?


I don’t think so.  It just won’t become law. The PM still has the confidence of the House as long as the house passes the motion.

I stand to be corrected though.

But it would look bad.


----------



## Furniture (23 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Can a government fall if a confidence bill is defeated by the senate?


No, and I only know that because there was an editorial from The Line today that explained it.

Leonid Sirota: On the Emergencies Act, the Senate gets an equal say. It should lead


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

OK.  I'll say it now.  I'm Trolling. 









						Rex Murphy: Praise for Justin Trudeau, in an alternate universe
					

Beware the parked trucks and the bouncy castles, said our far-sighted 'Horatio at the bridge'




					nationalpost.com
				












						LILLEY: Trudeau drops emergency powers less than 24 hours after defending them
					

Less than 24 hours after defending the need for the emergency powers he granted his government, Justin Trudeau dropped every single one.




					torontosun.com


----------



## Blackadder1916 (23 Feb 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Can a government fall if a confidence bill is defeated by the senate?



From the preface to SENATE PROCEDURE IN PRACTICE.

". . . While it has the same duty as the House of Commons in holding the government of the day to account, *the Senate has never had a role in challenging the mandate of the government through a vote of confidence*. . . ."


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Ok, let me get this straight…
> 
> The government said as late as this morning that the Emergencies Act will remain in place for a while yet…
> 
> ...


Postmedia News
Publishing date:
Feb 23, 2022  •  3 hours ago  •  2 minute read  (Reference 17:42 Alberta Time - MST or 19:42 Ottawa Time -EST)
Trudeau's announcement was at 16:00 Ottawa Time - EST, or 14:00 Alberta Time - MST
The Toronto Sun release seems to have been at 16:42 Ottawa Time.  Or just minutes after Trudeau declared "Never Mind!"









						Trudeau-appointed senator to vote against Emergencies Act continuation
					

Trudeau-appointed senator Dalphond says he will vote against Emergencies Act




					torontosun.com


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Kelly McParland: The Liberals cheer Justin Trudeau. The world thinks he blew it
					

Some of the world’s most respected newspapers have denounced the prime minister's actions as a needless abuse of power




					nationalpost.com
				












						LILLEY: World laughs as Trudeau claims to 'stand against authoritarianism'
					

When you lead a government that has just granted itself extraordinary powers to quash dissent, is it wise to hold a news conference and say you stand against…




					torontosun.com


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Would it be wrong to suggest that the response to Trudeau from the assembled voice of NATO might have been something along the lines of

"Thank you for your support, but, all things considered we'd really rather you didn't"


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (23 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Ok, let me get this straight…
> 
> The government said as late as this morning that the Emergencies Act will remain in place for a while yet…
> 
> ...



His speech was really good, I thought it was going to pass yesterday. But Trudeau tipped off that it was going to likely fail.







			https://twitter.com/DonPlett


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

Trolling PMedMoe?  I'm not averse to that.

On the other hand the authors of those articles might call it newsworthy honest comment.

Cheers!.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon (23 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> View attachment 68931
> His speech was really good, I thought it was going to pass yesterday. But Trudeau tipped off that it was going to likely fail.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## FJAG (23 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> We could have an entire thread on Ottawa City Hall incompetence and corruption. The folks in Centretown may be cheering the "occupation" if that was the catalyst that exposed and tossed out the Watson Cabal.


If you made the thread about both Ottawa and Victoria then you could have people post blind headlines and let people vote for a day on whether it was in Ottawa or Victoria before revealing the answer and full article.


----------



## Kirkhill (23 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> View attachment 68931
> His speech was really good, I thought it was going to pass yesterday. But Trudeau tipped off that it was going to likely fail.
> 
> 
> ...


Minute 1:20:20

Section 58 (7) 



> If a motion for confirmation of a declaration of emergency is negatived by either House of Parliament, the declaration, to the extent that it has not previously expired or been revoked, is revoked effective on the day of the negative vote and no further action under this section need be taken in the other House with respect to the motion.







__





						Emergencies Act
					

Federal laws of Canada




					laws-lois.justice.gc.ca
				




I would like to thank the politician or bureaucrat that had that "Stop Work Order" inserted into the text of the Act.

It gave the Senate equal authority over the government as the Commons has.  Except the Senate is less susceptible to the politics of the day and partisanship.

Not useless after all.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Feb 2022)

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> View attachment 68931
> His speech was really good, I thought it was going to pass yesterday. But Trudeau tipped off that it was going to likely fail.
> 
> 
> ...




A long but very worth while video to watch. It really lays out the scope of what Trudeau was trying to pull. 

I've always been critical about the non-elected senators (and honestly will continue to be) but they really seemed to have curbed a opportunity for mass-abuse to take place.


----------



## Furniture (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Minute 1:20:20
> 
> Section 58 (7)
> 
> ...



This is a point I have raised with people over the years. Senators don't need to be elected, so don't have to play retail politics, or play nice with the leader of their party. 

The Senate exists for situations like this, and it appears that they did exactly what they are supposed to do.


----------



## RangerRay (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Kelly McParland: The Liberals cheer Justin Trudeau. The world thinks he blew it
> 
> 
> Some of the world’s most respected newspapers have denounced the prime minister's actions as a needless abuse of power
> ...



They’re not wrong…definitely an own goal.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> They’re not wrong…definitely an own goal.


So…was I the only one who snickered at *this line* below in the aforementioned article???



> If Butts had targeted the hallucinatory reports from the make-believe world of America’s extreme right, it would have been understandable. Indeed, it’s the conspiracy-obsessed Trumpist media that made frenzied attacks on unfriendly journalists a favourite weapon. *But Butts’* intervention wasn’t aimed at the Fox mob or any of their cohort. The New York Times, Economist and Financial Times are all respected, upstanding, serious-minded publications with global audiences that look to them for accurate and well-informed coverage. And each of them thinks Justin Trudeau blew it when he seized on the Emergencies Act to end the siege in Ottawa’s streets.


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Trolling PMedMoe?  I'm not averse to that.
> 
> On the other hand the authors of those articles might call it newsworthy honest comment.
> 
> Cheers!.


Pick which of the comments you're referring to. Or you can just PM me to not derail an already derailed thread.

Side note: I miss spell check.


----------



## brihard (23 Feb 2022)

Ontario’s MTO has begun revoking commercial vehicle licenses, suspending Ontario operation privileges for our-of-province trucks, and issuing license plate seizure orders for commercial vehicle operators who were involved in illegal activity. A few dozen businesses are effectively shut down.









						MTO grounds trucking businesses involved in 'Freedom Convoy' protests - Truck News
					

The Ontario Ministry of Transportation has effectively shut down 39 trucking businesses in the wake of a crackdown on so-called Freedom Convoy protesters.




					www.trucknews.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Feb 2022)

On a positive note for LPC the invasion of Ukraine will provide enough of a distraction in the media for this whole Emergency Act abuse of power thing to go away.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Feb 2022)

I'm glad it got sorted. I'm glad trudeau got his comeuppance. I'm glad butts is pissed enough at the failure that he's slamming good, honest journalism. With luck, they won't  be so endeared with our government anymore. As far as the world is concerned, he wasn't  taken very seriously anyway. Hopefully, he becomes more of a pariah on the world stage. What I don't like, is it didn't all play out. He's  been left with room to scheme, manufacture and lie, conive and plot some more. Him and his team have been stung.......badly. He is not the type to accept blame or humiliation, warranted or not, without becoming a vindictive little brat. If one good thing came out of it all, Singh was shown as just another liberal lackey back bencher. Hope he splits the grit vote.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> On a positive note for LPC the invasion of Ukraine will provide enough of a distraction in the media for this whole Emergency Act abuse of power thing to go away.


It shouldn't. It's not like we really have any kind of role to play or capability to offer. What sanctions? I don't expect much more than when he grabbed the Crimea. We sure taught putin a lesson there, didn't we.😉


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> On a positive note for LPC the invasion of Ukraine will provide enough of a distraction in the media for this whole Emergency Act abuse of power thing to go away.



I wonder if Trudeau arranged that on purpose?


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Feb 2022)

Not on purpose.   But we haven't played "international emergency" yet...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> Ontario’s MTO has begun revoking commercial vehicle licenses, suspending Ontario operation privileges for our-of-province trucks, and issuing license plate seizure orders for commercial vehicle operators who were involved in illegal activity. A few dozen businesses are effectively shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Destroy's people livelihood, because that will work really well to have them not become even more desperate.


----------



## lenaitch (24 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Minute 1:20:20
> 
> Section 58 (7)
> 
> ...


Thanks for that.  I've been looking for what happens if the 'nays have it' and it seems I didn't go deep enough into the Act.


----------



## lenaitch (24 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> The Senate, should be able to trigger an election, with the consent of the Commons, if they return the bill to the Commons for reconsideration.  All the Commons would have to do would be pass a motion of Non-Confidence in the government.
> 
> But they can do that already can't they?
> 
> We really shouldn't be afraid of elections, or consider them an imposition or unnecessary expense.  I would like to see them happen frequently.  Until the government (of any stripe) starts to understand it is important to work with the people and not across them.


The appointed should determine the mandate of the elected?  That's not far off what some of the protesters demanded of the GG.

I'm also not clear on the whole 'forcing with consent' angle.  The House decides if the government has its confidence to govern.


----------



## Furniture (24 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The appointed should determine the mandate of the elected?  That's not far off what some of the protesters demanded of the GG.
> 
> I'm also not clear on the whole 'forcing with consent' angle.  The House decides if the government has its confidence to govern.


The government forced consent by threatening to trigger an election, an election nobody but the LPC and CPC could likely afford to run. That pretty much ensures the NDP will "play nice", and do what the LPC want.


----------



## Kirkhill (24 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The appointed should determine the mandate of the elected?  That's not far off what some of the protesters demanded of the GG.
> 
> I'm also not clear on the whole 'forcing with consent' angle.  The House decides if the government has its confidence to govern.



WRT the GG.  She is the adjudicator according to Canadian law, as I understand it, and she was selected by the PM as HM's representative.  He agreed to be supervised by her. Again, as I understand it.

WRT the Senate - my understanding of their role is one of sober second sight.  They are granted the power to send legislation back to the Commons for them to have a rethink.  And, again, these are people selected by Prime Ministers to review their work based on that understanding.

If the elected PM gets sufficiently offside that his own personally cadre of adjudicators feel the need to call him on it, how can he complain.

And, in fact, I don't have a problem with a counter to the "elected", especially if the public at large, including the malcontents, perhaps especially the malcontents, know that they have other avenues by which their grievances can be presented for consideration.  

The power still lies where it is supposed to lie, in the hands of the elected.  But I don't think it is wrong that the elected be tasked with resolving the things that make them feel uncomfortable as well as those they support.


----------



## lenaitch (24 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> WRT the GG.  She is the adjudicator according to Canadian law, as I understand it, and she was selected by the PM as HM's representative.  He agreed to be supervised by her. Again, as I understand it.
> 
> WRT the Senate - my understanding of their role is one of sober second sight.  They are granted the power to send legislation back to the Commons for them to have a rethink.  And, again, these are people selected by Prime Ministers to review their work based on that understanding.
> 
> ...


Not sure I'd use the word "adjudicator" - that's the role of the judiciary.  More of a limited check.  Attached re 'reserve power of the GG':



			Governor General of Canada: the Role, the Myth, the Legend - Centre for Constitutional Studies
		


I concur the Senate can send bills back, but I was disagreeing with the suggestion that the Senate should be able to force an election or change of government.


----------



## Kirkhill (24 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Not sure I'd use the word "adjudicator" - that's the role of the judiciary.  More of a limited check.  Attached re 'reserve power of the GG':
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with you on the Senate.  But I have no problem with the Senate making the life of the Government of the Day difficult and putting a little bit of grit into the system.  A well functioning brake is always necessary in any good control system.

WRT the GG however

For me the clue is in the word Powers, as in "Reserve Powers".  Like any good Reserve they can't be used easily or often.  They are diminished every time they are used and take a long time to rebuild.

However the powers are no less real for all that.  And I am glad they exist.  Especially in times like these.  Times that are demonstrating the truth of the aphorisms "A week is an eternity in politics" and "Events, dear boy, events."   Sometimes it may be necessary to move faster than is possible under our five year electoral cycle, if the government gets offside with Canadians.

There is a debate to be had about legitimacy and the legitimate use of the powers, and the fora for that debate exist in parliament, both houses, the courts and the press, as well as in social media, the public square and pubs.  I suggest that the PM of the day would be hard pressed to argue the powers used are illegitimate given that he has appointed the person that possesses those powers.  If he gets offside with his own appointed "brakeman" I think he would find it difficult to argue she doesn't have a right deploy the brake.

Under these circumstances democracy has to mean something more that rescheduling Valentine's Day because a circus rolled into town.


----------



## OceanBonfire (24 Feb 2022)

> ...
> 
> While the demonstration started as a way of protesting against COVID-19 vaccine mandates and other public health measures brought about by the pandemic, it was quickly co-opted into an anti-government movement and became anything but peaceful, said Earle.
> 
> ...











						'I don't know him anymore': Canadians losing family and friends over trucker protests
					

While trucker convoy demonstrations across several Canadian cities are being cleared out, tensions between family and friends remain. Several Canadians wrote to CTVNews.ca about differences of opinion that have left family members divided and friendships strained, with some ultimately deciding...




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## QV (24 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> 'I don't know him anymore': Canadians losing family and friends over trucker protests
> 
> 
> While trucker convoy demonstrations across several Canadian cities are being cleared out, tensions between family and friends remain. Several Canadians wrote to CTVNews.ca about differences of opinion that have left family members divided and friendships strained, with some ultimately deciding...
> ...


I'm not sure CTVNews can be considered a credible news agency anymore.  

"White genocide"? 

Was there even one window broken by the protestors during the whole time?


----------



## Remius (24 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I'm not sure CTVNews can be considered a credible news agency anymore.
> 
> "White genocide"?
> 
> Was there even one window broken by the protestors during the whole time?


They quoted that person who said “white privilege”.  Not sure why them quoting someone fir their reasons to stop having certain friends is somehow not credible.  I missed the part about white genocide.  

Yes.  There was.


----------



## Furniture (24 Feb 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> 'I don't know him anymore': Canadians losing family and friends over trucker protests
> 
> 
> While trucker convoy demonstrations across several Canadian cities are being cleared out, tensions between family and friends remain. Several Canadians wrote to CTVNews.ca about differences of opinion that have left family members divided and friendships strained, with some ultimately deciding...
> ...


CTV really cherry picked some doozies. 

I like how they tossed in one pro-protest person at the end, so they can claim to be impartial.


----------



## Remius (24 Feb 2022)

Furniture said:


> CTV really cherry picked some doozies.
> 
> I like how they tossed in one pro-protest person at the end, so they can claim to be impartial.


Pro protesters aren’t really interested in talking to the MSM.    So you get what you get.


----------



## Furniture (24 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> Pro protesters aren’t really interested in talking to the MSM.    So you get what you get.


I'm fairly certain they got more than one email... 

I know why they did it, and I don't mind it, apart from the fact that the MSM likes to pretend they are neutral.


----------



## Haggis (24 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Was there even one window broken by the protestors during the whole time?


Are you including Coastal Gas Link site protesters in that question "during the whole time" of the EA being in force, or just truckers?


----------



## KevinB (24 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I'm not sure CTVNews can be considered a credible news agency anymore.
> 
> "White genocide"?
> 
> Was there even one window broken by the protestors during the whole time?


There where a few acts of vandalism - a window broken in an apartment building and a trash can set ablaze by protestors at the same site.
   There where some hooligans there, it's important to admit that aspect of it, even thought the vast majority didn't do things like that.


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Are you including Coastal Gas Link site protesters in that question "during the whole time" of the EA being in force, or just truckers?


Pretty sure no one included the CGL terrorism in the calculus of the EA declaration…


----------



## AKa (25 Feb 2022)

I sincerely believe that calling the occupation "peaceful" is disingenuous at best.  There was a constant implicit and often explicit threat of violence throughout.  People and businesses were harassed and screamed at for wearing masks.  People who stood up and resisted were threatened.  The continuous noise was an aural assault.  My friends who live downtown were losing their minds from the stress.  I can't imagine what it was like for people who were vulnerable or already suffering from mental health issues.  

The greater group of the occupiers cavalierly dismiss the fear and suffering of the downtown populace.  They felt no threat to themselves so everything was hunky dory until the greater police presence moved in.


----------



## Haggis (25 Feb 2022)

The Ontario Ministry of Transportation has suspended a number of commercial  licences of businesses involved in the Ottawa "protest".


----------



## RangerRay (25 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> The Ontario Ministry of Transportation has suspended a number of commercial  licences of businesses involved in the Ottawa "protest".


Reap what you sow. Actions have consequences. I only wish other squats/blockades/occupations faced similar consequences.


----------



## Scott (25 Feb 2022)

Pat King's bail hearing continues to make for good Twitter: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497230385197072384


----------



## QV (25 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Reap what you sow. Actions have consequences. I only wish other squats/blockades/occupations faced similar consequences.


The one sided application in this is just another point of friction that didn’t need to be, but speaks volumes.


----------



## Furniture (25 Feb 2022)

AKa said:


> I sincerely believe that calling the occupation "peaceful" is disingenuous at best.  There was a constant implicit and often explicit threat of violence throughout.  People and businesses were harassed and screamed at for wearing masks.  People who stood up and resisted were threatened.  The continuous noise was an aural assault.  My friends who live downtown were losing their minds from the stress.  I can't imagine what it was like for people who were vulnerable or already suffering from mental health issues.
> 
> The greater group of the occupiers cavalierly dismiss the fear and suffering of the downtown populace.  They felt no threat to themselves so everything was hunky dory until the greater police presence moved in.


It was largely free of violence, therefore it was "peaceful" as far as protests go. 

peaceful

I have never seen peaceful used as a descriptor for a protest with the intended meaning being "quiet and calm".


----------



## QV (25 Feb 2022)

Haggis said:


> Are you including Coastal Gas Link site protesters in that question "during the whole time" of the EA being in force, or just truckers?


The CGL incident was an act of domestic terrorism. So no, I’m not including the two together when I refer to protestor.


----------



## QV (25 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> There where a few acts of vandalism - a window broken in an apartment building and a trash can set ablaze by protestors at the same site.
> There where some hooligans there, it's important to admit that aspect of it, even thought the vast majority didn't do things like that.


I recognize that, so comparatively this protest was virtually vandalism and violence free compared to other prominent protests.


----------



## Remius (25 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> I recognize that, so comparatively this protest was virtually vandalism and violence free compared to other prominent protests.


It was far from damage free.


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Feb 2022)

AKa said:


> I sincerely believe that calling the occupation "peaceful" is disingenuous at best.  There was a constant implicit and often explicit threat of violence throughout.  People and businesses were harassed and screamed at for wearing masks.  People who stood up and resisted were threatened.  The continuous noise was an aural assault.  My friends who live downtown were losing their minds from the stress.  I can't imagine what it was like for people who were vulnerable or already suffering from mental health issues.
> 
> The greater group of the occupiers cavalierly dismiss the fear and suffering of the downtown populace.  They felt no threat to themselves so everything was hunky dory until the greater police presence moved in.



AKa - I can agree with you and yet still find myself thinking that we are measuring the event by a very Canadian scale.  Given some well known alternatives, even within Canada.  

I am glad that I live in a country where this protest is considered to be the outer limits of the acceptable.  Just as the Government's response was.


----------



## dapaterson (25 Feb 2022)

Apparently one of the lesser lights has decided to live stream bail hearings on Facebook, in contravention of the direction of the JPs.

I suspect yet another instance of FAFO is about to unfold.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Feb 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Apparently one of the lesser lights has decided to live stream bail hearings on Facebook, in contravention of the direction of the JPs.
> 
> I suspect yet another instance of FAFO is about to unfold.


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Feb 2022)

AKa said:


> I sincerely believe that calling the occupation "peaceful" is disingenuous at best.  There was a constant implicit and often explicit threat of violence throughout.  People and businesses were harassed and screamed at for wearing masks.  People who stood up and resisted were threatened.  The continuous noise was an aural assault.  My friends who live downtown were losing their minds from the stress.  I can't imagine what it was like for people who were vulnerable or already suffering from mental health issues.
> 
> The greater group of the occupiers cavalierly dismiss the fear and suffering of the downtown populace.  They felt no threat to themselves so everything was hunky dory until the greater police presence moved in.



Thinking more about this got me to wondering if I consider this Freedom Convoy episode, both its rise to the occupation and blockades, and the response of the Government, to reflect well on Canada.

In all, I have to say that despite the actions of some, at all levels, I believe that the episode in total reflects well on Canada.  The fact that demonstrators could organize, fund, initiate and maintain their demonstration lawfully is a good thing (Pace Martha Stewart).  It was considered sufficiently worthy that it attracted sympathy within Canada and, importantly, internationally.   Foreigners saw Canadian protesters in portable hot tubs on Parliament Hill with Bouncy Castles and kids, having barbecues and protesting against their government.    The scene was replicated in New Zealand and, I believe in Australia.  Is it reasonable to suspect that those scenes were also seen in St Petersburg, Vladivostok, Rostov, Moscow and Kaliningrad?  Kiev?

The response of the Government was also, equally noteworthy.

In the case of the Coutts blockade, when some people with guns were found to be supporting the blockade the rest of the supporter did not hinder the police in executing their duly authorized warrants.  And once those guns were removed the remainder of the supporters melted away and were allowed to do so by the police.  The protesters cleaned up the site before they left.  As some one with the privilege (an over used and ill used word these days) of living in Southern Alberta, an hour from Coutts, and surrounded by a staunchly religious community of Christians of various beliefs (particularly Hutterites, Mennonites, Mormons and Reformers - all of whom have been persecuted historically) I can say that the action and the reaction were entirely in keeping.  Ability to make decisions freely, as they see fit is at the core of their beliefs.  As is pacifism.  Their pacifism, however, is not the same as being passive.  Their protest, and the Government's response was entirely in keeping.

In the case of the Windsor Blockade a small number of protesters were allowed to demonstrate and block passage for a period of days while the police controlled the situation, sought legal remedies and then, as at Coutts, executed their warrants, again, largely with the compliance of the demonstrators. (I wonder if there is more interest now in building that second public bridge now - apparently the privately held, profitable one, is insecure).

Then there is the Ottawa case.  If anything the problem seems to have been that a significant portion of the local police were disinclined to be heavy handed with the protesters due to personal sympathies with them.  It took a number of sleepless nights before the Federal Government felt it needed to do something, and when it did, in my opinion, over reach and implement a major infringement of Canadian liberties, it was called on it.

Credit to the police, in the main,  for controlling and clearing the protests.  Credit to the protesters, in the main, for respecting the enforced law and, again, in the main, controlling themselves.

People on all sides were certainly angry.  They certainly believed the other side's supporters to be in the wrong.  And for the best part of a month they confronted each other all the way across Canada.

And nobody died.  And injuries and property damage were similar to that seen in any city in the world after a drunken celebration by supporters of a local team after winning a sports championship.

All in all, I think it presents an interesting, and worthy, contrast to those facing the prospect of protesting in Moscow, Hong Kong and Beijing.

Again, 

I'm happy I live here.


----------



## Remius (25 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Thinking more about this got me to wondering if I consider this Freedom Convoy episode, both its rise to the occupation and blockades, and the response of the Government, to reflect well on Canada.
> 
> In all, I have to say that despite the actions of some, at all levels, I believe that the episode in total reflects well on Canada.  The fact that demonstrators could organize, fund, initiate and maintain their demonstration lawfully is a good thing (Pace Martha Stewart).  It was considered sufficiently worthy that it attracted sympathy within Canada and, importantly, internationally.   Foreigners saw Canadian protesters in portable hot tubs on Parliament Hill with Bouncy Castles and kids, having barbecues and protesting against their government.    The scene was replicated in New Zealand and, I believe in Australia.  Is it reasonable to suspect that those scenes were also seen in St Petersburg, Vladivostok, Rostov, Moscow and Kaliningrad?  Kiev?
> 
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496983499294666781


----------



## Altair (25 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496983499294666781


Its the same picture, right?


----------



## Remius (25 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497297208596647941
Pat King Denied Bail.


----------



## Altair (25 Feb 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497297208596647941
> Pat King Denied Bail.


Oh the Tyranny!


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Feb 2022)

What do the numbers on the back of the police officer vests represent?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (25 Feb 2022)

I'm guessing the answer is related to the numbers that have been on the side of my vehicles over the years...from 22, 54, 84, to a few with some 9's in them...


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## Kirkhill (25 Feb 2022)

PPCLI Guy said:


> I'm guessing the answer is related to the numbers that have been on the side of my vehicles over the years...from 22, 54, 84, to a few with some 9's in them...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (25 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Thinking more about this got me to wondering if I consider this Freedom Convoy episode, both its rise to the occupation and blockades, and the response of the Government, to reflect well on Canada.
> 
> In all, I have to say that despite the actions of some, at all levels, I believe that the episode in total reflects well on Canada.  The fact that demonstrators could organize, fund, initiate and maintain their demonstration lawfully is a good thing (Pace Martha Stewart).  It was considered sufficiently worthy that it attracted sympathy within Canada and, importantly, internationally.   Foreigners saw Canadian protesters in portable hot tubs on Parliament Hill with Bouncy Castles and kids, having barbecues and protesting against their government.    The scene was replicated in New Zealand and, I believe in Australia.  Is it reasonable to suspect that those scenes were also seen in St Petersburg, Vladivostok, Rostov, Moscow and Kaliningrad?  Kiev?
> 
> ...


Speaking of NZ


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Feb 2022)

I was thinking the same but there


PPCLI Guy said:


> I'm guessing the answer is related to the numbers that have been on the side of my vehicles over the years...from 22, 54, 84, to a few with some 9's in them...


Thinking so.  Wondering who it is and if it's a standard practice or something brought out for the protests.


----------



## mariomike (26 Feb 2022)

Whatever the social media opinions are, it would be interesting to read a legal opinion on the class-action lawsuit.

Ottawa lawsuit going ahead against protesters​








						UPDATE: Class action lawsuit will likely seek more than $300-million from convoy protest organizers, supporters
					

Ottawa lawyer Paul Champ, who is representing downtown residents, says his team is open to talking with individual protesters if they want to reach a settlement outside of the class action.




					ottawa.citynews.ca
				












						Who is Zexi Li? An overwhelmingly positive, strong and resilient symbol of hope for protest-weary Centretown residents
					

Sitting at a table in the atrium of a downtown office building, Zexi Li is met with an almost endless parade of well-wishers — some of whom she knows, others she doesn’t — each taking the opportunity to thank her.




					ottawacitizen.com


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## Booter (26 Feb 2022)

accountability/ visibility/ tracking. Im
Not familiar with the way OPS puts it together in reporting but that’s what it is 

There’s an ongoing move towards a high vis way to track the officers involved for a variety of reasons that isn’t a four or five digit number or their name 


Jarnhamar said:


> What do the numbers on the back of the police officer vests represent?
> 
> View attachment 69001
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Feb 2022)

Appreciate that thank you. I wonder if there's ever been talk for police to adopt a type of blue force tracker system.


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## Booter (26 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Appreciate that thank you. I wonder if there's ever been talk for police to adopt a type of blue force tracker system.


It’s in use and field trialed multiple places. There’s some hiccups but it’s the direction we re headed. Different types of the same concept.

A few years out being standard but I’ve been in trials in several cities for several similar systems. From front line 911 cops and higher taskings

So it’s where we are headed

I was in a shared command post with a large muni agency and they were using a system similar to blueforce  as well

Naturally- no ability to see each other though. Lol


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## Jarnhamar (26 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> Naturally- no ability to see each other though. Lol


I was just having some drinks with an officer who was present for the protests. Not in a position to share what was discussed but even as a veteran of "army stupidity" I was still really surprised at the BS some police were dealing with. From the public (no surprise), but especially from from their CoC and even from other officers. 

I hope some stories see the light of day and the issues get addressed because they're pretty huge.


----------



## KevinB (26 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I was thinking the same but there
> 
> Thinking so.  Wondering who it is and if it's a standard practice or something brought out for the protests.


On our ERT Uniforms we only had our CallSign not name or badge# 
  A means of identification, but keeping PERSEC when dealing with folks one would prefer didn’t know our names.


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## lenaitch (27 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Appreciate that thank you. I wonder if there's ever been talk for police to adopt a type of blue force tracker system.


Many (or most?) large police services' vehicles are GPS-tracked and there is work to get that down to the individual portable radio level, but it's expensive.  There are differences depending on how the portable talks to the network, and challenges when a lot of radios are packed into a small area.


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## Booter (27 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Many (or most?) large police services' vehicles are GPS-tracked and there is work to get that down to the individual portable radio level, but it's expensive.  There are differences depending on how the portable talks to the network, and challenges when a lot of radios are packed into a small area.


Not a large portion of us outside certain areas.

And tracking the units versus the member is a totally different ball game.

The ability to direct people to positions on the fly from tablets etc.

Track individual members in foot pursuits- containment….SAR.

The GPS units in some of the PCs is one thing. Dropping mission packets and having individuals and tasking is a different beast.

While it sounds similar- especially the GPS integration on portables, a true tracker being trialed can also be used by each individual officer to see themselves in relation not just a dispatch centre.

Running a call with IR video dumping to my tablet from a helicopter, and a tracker with the ability to direct individuals by the meter- giving them routes etc is more than just GPS tracking. 

We re trying to sort the logistics. 
🤷‍♀️


----------



## mariomike (27 Feb 2022)

The University of Calgary Faculty of Law on the "Freedom Convoy" class-action lawsuit.
Rigs in a Parlour: The Freedom Convoy and the Law of Private Nuisance​








						Rigs in a Parlour: The Freedom Convoy and the Law of Private Nuisance
					

By: David V Wright and Martin Olszynski PDF Version: Rig in a Parlour: The Freedom Convoy and the Law of Private Nuisance Matter Commented On: Li v Barber et al, Court File No CV-22-00088514-00CP A…



					ablawg.ca
				




Ontario Superior Court of Justice
_Li v Barber et al, _Court File No CV-22-00088514-00CP









						UPDATE: Class action lawsuit will likely seek more than $300-million from convoy protest organizers, supporters
					

Ottawa lawyer Paul Champ, who is representing downtown residents, says his team is open to talking with individual protesters if they want to reach a settlement outside of the class action.




					ottawa.citynews.ca
				




​


----------



## armrdsoul77 (28 Feb 2022)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/t32vfc


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## brihard (28 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Many (or most?) large police services' vehicles are GPS-tracked and there is work to get that down to the individual portable radio level, but it's expensive.  There are differences depending on how the portable talks to the network, and challenges when a lot of radios are packed into a small area.


It won’t be tracking of individual radios, but rather a blue force tracker on every officer’s work cellphone. It already exists and is fielded by some services. Pretty sweet tech, and fantastic for critical incident perimeter and containment on the fly.


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## Booter (28 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> It won’t be tracking of individual radios, but rather a blue force tracker on every officer’s work cellphone. It already exists and is fielded by some services. Pretty sweet tech, and fantastic for critical incident perimeter and containment on the fly.


The new systems being purchased radio-wise are all GPS capable- some it’s a matter of infrastructure. Others it’s software or something- that’s not something I have even passing understanding of really. “Works here” vs “doesn’t work here” being the extent of it.

That capability seems comparable- but in my experience getting any reliable data off that system in any useable form isn’t. It’s either not sensitive enough- so radius is nonsense or it doesn’t work at all. I believe that’s how Lenaitch is looking at it- purely from that GPS function. Which tracking units and placing them on a map is indeed a tracker of a sort- ops wise it’s pretty archaic.

The individual device system is easier and more intuitive and reliable 🤷‍♀️ The errors being the cops using them in most cases.

There are some challenges- like organizing intelligent groups that’s are useful, and getting people used to the features, or unsurprisingly, expectations of charging and carrying the platform.


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## Booter (28 Feb 2022)

The individual system also helped me collect a guy who stayed an hour in a ditch after everyone else cleared…sooooooo


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## NavyShooter (28 Feb 2022)

Got this from a friend in the police...they send it to their new guys as a helpful reminder.


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## lenaitch (28 Feb 2022)

brihard said:


> It won’t be tracking of individual radios, but rather a blue force tracker on every officer’s work cellphone. It already exists and is fielded by some services. Pretty sweet tech, and fantastic for critical incident perimeter and containment on the fly.





Booter said:


> The new systems being purchased radio-wise are all GPS capable- some it’s a matter of infrastructure. Others it’s software or something- that’s not something I have even passing understanding of really. “Works here” vs “doesn’t work here” being the extent of it.
> 
> That capability seems comparable- but in my experience getting any reliable data off that system in any useable form isn’t. It’s either not sensitive enough- so radius is nonsense or it doesn’t work at all. I believe that’s how Lenaitch is looking at it- purely from that GPS function. Which tracking units and placing them on a map is indeed a tracker of a sort- ops wise it’s pretty archaic.
> 
> ...


I forgot about the issued cel-phones.  For scenarios like Ottawa, the challenge is the numbers in a fairly compact area and the resulting data impact on the network.  The advantage is the extent of the network coverage in an urban setting.


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## lenaitch (28 Feb 2022)

Booter said:


> The individual system also helped me collect a guy who stayed an hour in a ditch after everyone else cleared…sooooooo


Might have helped back in the '70s when I was assigned to a checkpoint (roadblock) then forgotten about for the next 15 hours. At least local cottagers brought us food.


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## Altair (28 Feb 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498356445301116929
Ill just leave this here.


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## QV (2 Mar 2022)

The purge continues...



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-donations-convoy-givesendgo-1.6365184


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## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> The purge continues...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-donations-convoy-givesendgo-1.6365184


A purge led by our National, tax payer financed broadcaster.


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## QV (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> A purge led by our National, tax payer financed broadcaster.


Utilizing illegally hacked information.

Nothing wrong with any of this... 🙄


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## Blackadder1916 (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> A purge led by our National, tax payer financed broadcaster.


How is this purge being "led" by the CBC?

Seems to me they are playing catch-up to the Toronto Star who started their coverage of the story back on 22 Feb.









						Ontario police officers are named in leaked list of donors to the ‘Freedom Convoy’
					

Both Toronto police and the OPP say they are investigating officers named in the leaked list of GiveSendGo donors.




					www.thestar.com
				












						OPP investigating reports police officers donated to “Freedom Convoy” protests
					

TORONTO - Two Ontario police forces have notified their professional standards units of allegations that some of their officers donated to the so-call...




					www.thestar.com
				




Back then, the CBC's first coverage (a day later) appeared to only be reporting OPP and TPS confirmation that they are investigating the reports of police officers donations.


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## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Utilizing illegally hacked information.
> 
> Nothing wrong with any of this... 🙄


IF it was illegally obtained then how can the OPP/RCMP use the lists legally?


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> How is this purge being "led" by the CBC?
> 
> Seems to me they are playing catch-up to the Toronto Star who started their coverage of the story back on 22 Feb.
> 
> ...


Because nobody outside of Toronto reads the Red Star.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)




----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

Michael Taube: Justin Trudeau has been a national embarrassment
					

This has been an embarrassing period of history that started with a well-received eulogy




					nationalpost.com
				





OldSolduer said:


> IF it was illegally obtained then how can the OPP/RCMP use the lists legally?



Is illegally obtained information admissible in court?

Also do the police services have an administrative measures type thing for police officers which "isn't disciplinary" (where the evidence bar is low)?


----------



## QV (2 Mar 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> How is this purge being "led" by the CBC?
> 
> Seems to me they are playing catch-up to the Toronto Star who started their coverage of the story back on 22 Feb.
> 
> ...


When the EA was initiated, I can't recall if it was stated in a presser or news article, but it was stated CBC has been going through the hacked lists and informing government. I'll see if I can find that and link it in.


----------



## QV (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> View attachment 69121


That's a bad take. Recall all the cries of "Occupation!".  The Ukraine situation is educating those what an "occupation" really looks like and it's not trucks honking and BBQs on Wellington.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> When the EA was initiated, I can't recall if it was stated in a presser or news article, but it was stated CBC has been going through the hacked lists and informing government. I'll see if I can find that and link it in.


No.  media outlets were confirming with individuals that were on the list.  If they were and then confirmed on the record, then they made news. 

Like the big developer in Ottawa who was not named despite everyone knowing.  The media has not made his name public.


----------



## QV (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> No.  media outlets were confirming with individuals that were on the list.  If they were and then confirmed on the record, then they made news.
> 
> Like the big developer in Ottawa who was not named despite everyone knowing.  The media has not made his name public.


I seem to recall Chrystia Freeland mentioning something about CBC screening the list, not for the news, for the government.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> I seem to recall Chrystia Freeland mentioning something about CBC screening the list, not for the news, for the government.


Perhaps you experienced it differently from others?


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## QV (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Perhaps you experienced it differently from others?


Remius I'm going to go and listen closer to those pressers and see if I misheard. Do you think you could un-asshole yourself in the meantime?


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## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Remius I'm going to go and listen closer to those pressers and see if I misheard. Do you think you could un-asshole yourself in the meantime?


Take all the time you need.


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## lenaitch (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Michael Taube: Justin Trudeau has been a national embarrassment
> 
> 
> This has been an embarrassing period of history that started with a well-received eulogy
> ...


Generally no.  The courts may allow evidence to be admitted if, even though it might have otherwise violated the Charter, it was obtained in good faith.  The relevant legislation, and the court ruling that have flown from them, are Charter Section 1 (limiting of rights reasonable in a free and democratic society) and 24(2) (bringing the administration of justice into disrepute).

If police services initiate investigations based on media reports, the evidence they obtain, and how they obtain it, will be important.  The initial allegations are public knowledge and the 'hacker' was not acting as an agent of the State.

The Code of Conduct under the Police Services Act is the disciplinary process.  If you are looking to sanction a member or impose certain penalties (loss, time, rank, etc.) that is the basis.  Below that, a service and its managers have the usual management tools like any other employer.


----------



## OceanBonfire (2 Mar 2022)

Bail denied for first of 4 accused of plotting to kill RCMP officers at Alta. border blockade
					

Chris Lysak, one of four people charged in connection with an alleged plot to murder RCMP members in connection with the border blockade in southern Alberta, has been denied bail.




					calgary.ctvnews.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/christopher-lysak-conspiracy-murder-rcmp-coutts-protest-blockade-1.6370031
		










						Man charged with conspiracy to commit murder in Coutts border blockade denied bail  | Globalnews.ca
					

Christopher Lysak, 48, appeared by video Wednesday from the Lethbridge Correctional Centre to hear Justice Vaughan Hartigan deliver his decision.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Booter (2 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Generally no.  The courts may allow evidence to be admitted if, even though it might have otherwise violated the Charter, it was obtained in good faith.  The relevant legislation, and the court ruling that have flown from them, are Charter Section 1 (limiting of rights reasonable in a free and democratic society) and 24(2) (bringing the administration of justice into disrepute).
> 
> If police services initiate investigations based on media reports, the evidence they obtain, and how they obtain it, will be important.  The initial allegations are public knowledge and the 'hacker' was not acting as an agent of the State.
> 
> The Code of Conduct under the Police Services Act is the disciplinary process.  If you are looking to sanction a member or impose certain penalties (loss, time, rank, etc.) that is the basis.  Below that, a service and its managers have the usual management tools like any other employer.


I don’t believe any of those stories are indicating any charges beyond disciplinary stuff. So it’s not court evidence standard. I could be wrong. I think it’s pretty lame


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Man appointed to police-oversight board took part in protests
					

One of Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s appointees to Ottawa’s police-oversight board took part in protests against public-health rules that paralyzed the nation’s capital for weeks, QP Briefing has confirmed. Robert Swaita is one of three members of the Ottawa Police Services Board who was installed...




					ipolitics.ca
				




You can’t make this stuff up.

Edit: just saw in the news the Province has accepted the resignation of all three provincial appointees on the board.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Man appointed to police-oversight board took part in protests
> 
> 
> One of Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s appointees to Ottawa’s police-oversight board took part in protests against public-health rules that paralyzed the nation’s capital for weeks, QP Briefing has confirmed. Robert Swaita is one of three members of the Ottawa Police Services Board who was installed...
> ...


Until it became an illegal gathering so what about donations and/or participation??  McCarthyism anybody??


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Until it became an illegal gathering so what about donations and/or participation??  McCarthyism anybody??


Maybe he should have disclosed that information given his position and access to sensitive information.  

Glad the province accepted the three provincial appointees resignations.   The board needed a purge regardless.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Generally no.  The courts may allow evidence to be admitted if, even though it might have otherwise violated the Charter, it was obtained in good faith.  The relevant legislation, and the court ruling that have flown from them, are Charter Section 1 (limiting of rights reasonable in a free and democratic society) and 24(2) (bringing the administration of justice into disrepute).


I'm still trying to wrap my head around the legality of people having their bank accounts frozen based off evidence collected from illegal hacking. I didn't think information or evidence gained illegally would be permissible.  Was it the late Rehtaeh Parsons who had a hacker release information about her tormentors and the law went after the hackers? Or something to that effect?
If a hacker hacked into a criminals email account and gave evidence to the police I don't think the police would be able to use the evidence to charge them.



lenaitch said:


> The Code of Conduct under the Police Services Act is the disciplinary process.  If you are looking to sanction a member or impose certain penalties (loss, time, rank, etc.) that is the basis.  Below that, a service and its managers have the usual management tools like any other employer.


Fair enough. Not sure if you're familiar with the CAF system but we have administrative measures which we say isn't disciplinary and used to administratively correct behavior. The lines get blurred when someone can't be charged (or it isn't supported by the JAG) and someones chain of command can give them these administrative measures (which can have career implications, including ending a career) and the burden of proof is pretty low.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Remius I'm going to go and listen closer to those pressers and see if I misheard. Do you think you could un-asshole yourself in the meantime?


No QV, you weren’t imagining it.  I didn’t burrow to find the GoC justification report document itself, but it is a public report and used CBC reporting as primary elements of invoking the EA…









						FUREY: Liberals cite CBC 'analysis' to justify freezing bank accounts
					

The incredible powers that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has given his government to freeze people’s bank accounts is based on their reliance on “analysis”…




					torontosun.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around the legality of people having their bank accounts frozen based off evidence collected from illegal hacking. I didn't think information or evidence gained illegally would be permissible.  Was it the late Rehtaeh Parsons who had a hacker release information about her tormentors and the law went after the hackers? Or something to that effect?
> If a hacker hacked into a criminals email account and gave evidence to the police I don't think the police would be able to use the evidence to charge them.


Maybe not.....but instead the guy just gives the info over Crimestoppers and the police find out it's worthy,....should they just let the alledged criminals go scot free?   Police investigate and hand off..........no investigative level police had ANYTHING to do with frozen bank accounts.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Maybe not.....but instead the guy just gives the info over Crimestoppers and the police find out it's worthy,....should they just let the alledged criminals go scot free?   Police investigate and hand off..........no investigative level police had ANYTHING to do with frozen bank accounts.


That sounds like a recipe to weaponize anonymous sources and illegal hackers "for the greater good". 

The alleged criminals didn't receive any due process.


----------



## Navy_Pete (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That sounds like a recipe to weaponize anonymous sources and illegal hackers "for the greater good".
> 
> The alleged criminals didn't receive any due process.



Like perhaps investigating if a naval reservist was in fact, a white supremacist after being doxed by a hacker group? We didn't ignore the info, regardless of the source.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/navy-reservist-iron-march-data-1.5382424

The majority of bank accounts were unfrozen pretty quickly and less than 200 accounts out of the reported of tens of thousands of supporters is pretty small, so it was far from a broad based slap down on anyone involved. Will be curious to see what basis they actually used though; normally what makes it up to the Ministers has been dumbed down to 3rd grader level and critical facts regularly get twisted or dropped along the way by people who have no idea what they are talking about that are doing the editing. If you've ever worked on anything that has gotten a press release that is pretty evident, so not sure that's what they actually did at the working level.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That sounds like a recipe to weaponize anonymous sources and illegal hackers "for the greater good".
> 
> The alleged criminals didn't receive any due process.


You get a note under your door that x is sexually harassing y, but because its not signed you ignore it and carry on ?


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You get a note under your door that x (Canadians) is sexually harassing have donated to y GiveSendGo, but because its not signed you ignore it and carry on  aligned with the official narrative it is illegal.


FTFY. Do as we say, and above all, think as we do, or else.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> FTFY. Do as we say, and above all, think as we do, or else.


Remember , I'm defending those that partook or donated,....UNTIL it became illegal.  But this discussion was more about trying to make like the police had something to do with it.  They get info, they investigate, it's up to the morons up higher what happens with those files.


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Remember , I'm defending those that partook or donated,....UNTIL it became illegal.  But this discussion was more about trying to make like the police had something to do with it.  They get info, they investigate, it's up to the morons up higher what happens with those files.


Yup. Get it. But when the morons say "it's illegal" the police have no choice. Chicken and egg anyone?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> Yup. Get it. But when the morons say "it's illegal" the police have no choice. Chicken and egg anyone?


As does the career you, and most on here, chose.....


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> As does the career you, and most on here, chose.....


Yeah, but I would say that the definition of what's "illegal" in the CAF has undergone some well earned "re-thinking" in the last few years. Food for thought for the grown ups.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Like perhaps investigating if a naval reservist was in fact, a white supremacist after being doxed by a hacker group? We didn't ignore the info, regardless of the source.


That's a good point and example. I suspect there was an investigation with due process. In fairness I don't know how much investigative work the police did or whether or not there was any sort of due process with the bank accounts. It didn't seem like it to me based off the very little info that was available.



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You get a note under your door that x is sexually harassing y, but because its not signed you ignore it and carry on ?


No but wouldn't drive to X's house and put him in jail either.



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Remember , I'm defending those that partook or donated,....UNTIL it became illegal.  But this discussion was more about trying to make like the police had something to do with it.  They get info, they investigate, it's up to the morons up higher what happens with those files.


I was personally against it as soon as they started hoking- I thought that was harassing behavior.
I don't think the police had anything to do with the names being leaked. It seemed like their was some ambiguity over when the protest became illegal and wther or not people who donated from day 1 would be caught up in the punishments. The government and police weren't very clear.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> No but wouldn't drive to X's house and put him in jail either.


Would one of them be working somewhere else??   Sometimes things happen before investigation is done.....especially if, after a talk from you, it allegedly happened again.

You're trying to defend an illegal act.......you want to defend those that were part of it before that moment, no problem.

Separate the convoy into two parts.


----------



## Furniture (2 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Like perhaps investigating if a naval reservist was in fact, a white supremacist after being doxed by a hacker group? We didn't ignore the info, regardless of the source.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/navy-reservist-iron-march-data-1.5382424
> 
> The majority of bank accounts were unfrozen pretty quickly and less than 200 accounts out of the reported of tens of thousands of supporters is pretty small, so it was far from a broad based slap down on anyone involved. Will be curious to see what basis they actually used though; normally what makes it up to the Ministers has been dumbed down to 3rd grader level and critical facts regularly get twisted or dropped along the way by people who have no idea what they are talking about that are doing the editing. If you've ever worked on anything that has gotten a press release that is pretty evident, so not sure that's what they actually did at the working level.



Anyone else remember when for 9/11 they only froze 50 bank accounts? 



			CNN.com - Progress made in freezing assets, Bush says - October  2, 2001
		


We quadrupled it for a some honking, and other bylaw breaking. Oh... also mischief, and counselling mischief...


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Would one of them be working somewhere else??   Sometimes things happen before investigation is done.....especially if, after a talk from you, it allegedly happened again.



If a crime is being commited of course stop it. 

The bank account seizing seemed shady and a slippery slope to me. When did the protest become illegal? I see Trudeau quoted saying it "was becoming illegal" and Ford said it was illegal. I may have missed the official DTG from the police when it was decided it was illegal. 




> You're trying to defend an illegal act.......you want to defend those that were part of it before that moment, no problem.


I think the truckers should have been arrested day 1 of blaring their horns. If someone donated money to the gofundme when it was illegal to do so then sure charge them. I just don't like how due process was circumvented because of the very questionable  emergency act.


----------



## McG (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> do the police services have an administrative measures type thing for police officers which "isn't disciplinary" (where the evidence bar is low)?


Hell, pretty much every profession has a disciplinary system with lower threshold to find guilt (just balance of probabilities) and looser evidence requirements as compared to the CAF. Instead of a professional disciplinary system, we have a pseudo criminal system.


----------



## lenaitch (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around the legality of people having their bank accounts frozen based off evidence collected from illegal hacking. I didn't think information or evidence gained illegally would be permissible.  Was it the late Rehtaeh Parsons who had a hacker release information about her tormentors and the law went after the hackers? Or something to that effect?
> If a hacker hacked into a criminals email account and gave evidence to the police I don't think the police would be able to use the evidence to charge them.


I think you are applying criminal law standards to regulatory enforcement.  The way I understand things, the banks froze the accounts under their regulatory authorities that were enhanced by the Emergencies Act.  Freezing the assets can have a dual role; it prevents them from being used to fund whatever has been declared illegal, and it prevents them from being diminished while an investigation is underway.  I'm not aware that law enforcement was involved but stand to be corrected on that.

There is a difference between permissible and admissible.  All sorts of things can be permissible under regulatory legislation; ask anybody who's had a run-in with the CRA.  As far as I am aware, nobody has been arrested or charged and no money has been confiscated.

I'll have to take it at face value that the banks or regulators got the names solely from the publication of the hackers list, since I don't know.

I tend to agree that police officers, and perhaps military members, who donated to the convoy or any ancillary movement before it was declared illegal and who did not link their status or employment to their support will probably not face any sanction.  I just don't see a breach of the Code of Conduct.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I think you are applying criminal law standards to regulatory enforcement.



I think you nailed it thank you.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Mar 2022)

We need more citizens denunciating those who participate in political protest and civil disobedience.  Then we will better be able to understand Russia, to defeat it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> We need more citizens denunciating those who participate in political protest and civil disobedience.  Then we will better be able to understand Russia, to defeat it.


Well Brad, I'm just going to keep breaking the windows in your house until PM Trudeau steps down....


----------



## QV (3 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> No QV, you weren’t imagining it.  I didn’t burrow to find the GoC justification report document itself, but it is a public report and used CBC reporting as primary elements of invoking the EA…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks GTG, I was certain it was there somewhere. It’s unbelievable how people are giving this sort of malfeasance a pass these days.


----------



## QV (3 Mar 2022)

Furniture said:


> Anyone else remember when for 9/11 they only froze 50 bank accounts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Lich is on day 19 of being held in jail…for what again? Has this ever happened before?


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> And Lich is on day 19 of being held in jail…for what again? Has this ever happened before?


The people in Ottawa who have been granted bail are pretty shocking compared to her.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Thanks GTG, I was certain it was there somewhere. It’s unbelievable how people are giving this sort of malfeasance a pass these days.


It's like a federal legislation ethical equivalent to holding a microphone in front of a speaker tied to the same system and getting self-induced feedback...so much easier than doing the tough work of conducting your own Threat Risk Assessment and other independent work to justify enacting the most extreme of Federal laws.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (3 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The people in Ottawa who have been granted bail are pretty shocking compared to her.


Locally we have had one guy charged with illegal firearms offences 3 separate times in one month, and he still gets bail every time. Out of those two I know which lunatic I would rather have on the streets.

To me the use of the emergencies act was unjustified as 1) the provinces still had the ability and capability to end the protests (they just chose not to utilize all the powers at their disposal) and 2) it seems to mainly been used to bypass our legal system as a means of punishing rather than ending the protests. You want accounts frozen? Apply to the courts like everyone else. Otherwise our legal system is a joke that can be bypassed whenever it is inconvenient.


----------



## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Oh it's going to happen at this rate, and do not be surprised if we see another NDP government in Alberta





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/united-conservative-party-jason-kenney-leadership-vote-1.6369112?cmp=rss
		




> Five weeks before United Conservative Party members vote on Premier Jason Kenney's fate as leader, grassroots organizers and MLAs are working to tip the balance.
> 
> Take Back Alberta, a provincial conservative grassroots group, says it's been holding meetings since December to convince members to vote to turf Kenney in the upcoming leadership review.
> 
> The group is also working to pay for transportation and attendance costs for members who would not otherwise be able to attend the special meeting in Red Deer on April 9.


----------



## Scott (3 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> And Lich is on day 19 of being held in jail…for what again? Has this ever happened before?


Yeah, get a recap on the hearing yesterday first. I wouldn't say she was well prepared.


----------



## QV (3 Mar 2022)

Scott said:


> Yeah, get a recap on the hearing yesterday first. I wouldn't say she was well prepared.



Neither are a great number of people getting bail on far more serious crimes. This whole show has become a circus.  

Next, you're going to tell me it was legit to freeze bank accounts of donors based on illegally hacked private information analyzed by a government funded media outlet who then shared their findings with the feds for a protest retroactively declared illegal by an unnecessary and unprecedented enactment of the EA. 

It keeps getting better and better.


----------



## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Chris Barber made bail.


QV said:


> Neither are a great number of people getting bail on far more serious crimes. This whole show has become a circus.
> 
> Next, you're going to tell me it was legit to freeze bank accounts of donors based on illegally hacked private information analyzed by a government funded media outlet who then shared their findings with the feds for a protest retroactively declared illegal by an unnecessary and unprecedented enactment of the EA.
> 
> It keeps getting better and better.


You still haven’t provided an ounce of proof that any findings/name were “shared” with the feds.  Did the feds base their decision making process on a CBC analysis?  Sure.  That isn’t the same thing.  You can believe what you want but so far you have no proof that happened.  

As far as bail is concerned, how many protesters did in fact get bail?  The fact that Lich is a terrible advocate for herself  is her fault and no one else’s.  Same with King.  Yet Barber seemed to get bail.  Maybe they should see how he handled it and emulate that instead of giving the judge more excuses to keep them in jail.


----------



## Scott (3 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Neither are a great number of people getting bail on far more serious crimes. This whole show has become a circus.
> 
> Next, you're going to tell me it was legit to freeze bank accounts of donors based on illegally hacked private information analyzed by a government funded media outlet who then shared their findings with the feds for a protest retroactively declared illegal by an unnecessary and unprecedented enactment of the EA.
> 
> It keeps getting better and better.




No. Next I'll tell you that if she didn't properly prepare for her hearing then that's on her.

Did you read the reporting on the bail hearing? Seek out any sources?


----------



## QV (3 Mar 2022)

You two can keep going on being apologists for a system that is now punishing those who speak out against Trudeau. Lich's case has to be the first ever instance in Canada where someone is being held for 19+ days in pre-trial custody on a _mischief_ charge (after the protests have dispersed no less). And the freezing of bank accounts without judicial authorization over donations to a protest movement has to be the first ever time that kind of gross government overreach occurred to ordinary citizens.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Chris Barber made bail.
> 
> You still haven’t provided an ounce of proof that any findings/name were “shared” with the feds.  Did the feds base their decision making process on a CBC analysis?  Sure.  That isn’t the same thing.  You can believe what you want but so far you have no proof that happened.
> 
> As far as bail is concerned, how many protesters did in fact get bail?  The fact that Lich is a terrible advocate for herself  is her fault and no one else’s.  Same with King.  Yet Barber seemed to get bail.  Maybe they should see how he handled it and emulate that instead of giving the judge more excuses to keep them in jail.


You actually think they say that they are using illegal obtained data to their benefit? these are the same people that use code words to frustrate ATIP requests and have a worldview that laws are for commoners.
As for Lich, your likely correct, however normal people do badly with the legal system as they have very little experience at how it works, seen this myself, as has my wife. The Judge should have accounted for that. Considering the pieces of shits that continuously get bail, this case stands out as pure vindictiveness on the part of the system.


----------



## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You actually think they say that they are using illegal obtained data to their benefit? these are the same people that use code words to frustrate ATIP requests and have a worldview that laws are for commoners.
> As for Lich, your likely correct, however normal people do badly with the legal system as they have very little experience at how it works, seen this myself, as has my wife. The Judge should have accounted for that. Considering the pieces of shits that continuously get bail, this case stands out as pure vindictiveness on the part of the system.


Where did I say that?  I said there is nothing that shows that the CBC provided the feds any info.  How the feds got their info I don’t know.  But it was very open source for a bit that even a 12 year old could have gotten it. 

I happen to agree that basing their decision on a CBC article is incredibly stupid and lazy.  That’s not what I am arguing though.  It’s the insinuation that the CBC provided that info to the government.  Not at all the same thing and that article in the Sun made no such claims.  

Normal people do badly with the legal system but she is represented i believe?  I hope so because if she isn’t it likely won’t go well. 

Vindictiveness?  I can’t say.  Like I said Barber got bail.  Plenty of people arrested during this got bail.  Some do and some don’t.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Mar 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The Judge should have accounted for that. Considering the pieces of shits that continuously get bail, this case stands out as pure vindictiveness on the part of the system.


100%. It appears purely vindictive. Lich's lawyer is arguing possible judicial bias.
​


----------



## Scott (4 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> You two can keep going on being apologists for a system that is now punishing those who speak out against Trudeau. Lich's case has to be the first ever instance in Canada where someone is being held for 19+ days in pre-trial custody on a _mischief_ charge (after the protests have dispersed no less). And the freezing of bank accounts without judicial authorization over donations to a protest movement has to be the first ever time that kind of gross government overreach occurred to ordinary citizens.


You can quit trying to ram words into my mouth, or meaning where it doesn't exist.

Lich might well be a first case in how seriously stupid her representation was/is. But Lich has been present for all and has not claimed any sort of mental impairment - that's on her, not the system. As I have stated, I kept up on the proceedings and it was abysmal how ill prepared Lich was.

Do a little reading on Lich's lawyer.


----------



## Scott (4 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> 100%. It appears purely vindictive. Lich's lawyer is arguing possible judicial bias.
> ​


Yeah, the lawyer jumped back from that one pretty quick when challenged on it. Because it was a stupid suggestion meant to get people mad about nothing.


----------



## QV (4 Mar 2022)

Bad lawyer or no lawyer, this has to be the first time anyone in Canada has been held this long pre-trial under these circumstances for the alleged crime of mischief. There have been a lot of bad "firsts" in the last few years.


----------



## Scott (4 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Bad lawyer or no lawyer, this has to be the first time anyone in Canada has been held this long pre-trial under these circumstances for the alleged crime of mischief. There have been a lot of bad "firsts" in the last few years.


Apples and bowling balls.

She's been represented the entire time and has failed to show a plan for her release, and then went so far to try the bias thing - which got shot down in record time - because it's bullshit. 

Have you bothered reading into the proceedings? 

All these inconvenient facts.


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Mar 2022)

Not to mention her guarantor was her husband who was also involved in the protests, said it was their first amendment rights to protest, and all kinds of other nonsense. Hard to release someone on their own recognizance when they won't listen enough to understand what that means.

Not really expecting a lot from people that were protesting against the federal govt for provincial mandates or think the GG and senate can overthrow Parliament but still, the bail hearing was an unrelenting torrent of stupidity and self goals from Lich.


----------



## Remius (4 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Not to mention her guarantor was her husband who was also involved in the protests, said it was their first amendment rights to protest, and all kinds of other nonsense. Hard to release someone on their own recognizance when they won't listen enough to understand what that means.
> 
> Not really expecting a lot from people that were protesting against the federal govt for provincial mandates or think the GG and senate can overthrow Parliament but still, the bail hearing was an unrelenting torrent of stupidity and self goals from Lich.


Her husband (her first surety) stated that the Holy Sprit would get them home.  And people wonder why bail was denied the first time…


----------



## armrdsoul77 (6 Mar 2022)




----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Mar 2022)

armrdsoul77 said:


> View attachment 69241




Whether one agrees/supports the Truck Convoy or not, it succeeded in:

-Highlighting issues and shortcomings in our policing
-Highlighting issues and problems in Ottawa with the police board
-Highlighting how powerful the Emergency Act can be
-Putting Trudeau and LPC's behavior and shortcomings on the world stage (again, but in a more serious reflection)


----------



## QV (7 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Whether one agrees/supports the Truck Convoy or not, it succeeded in:
> 
> -Highlighting issues and shortcomings in our policing
> -Highlighting issues and problems in Ottawa with the police board
> ...


I’m still waiting for the viral outbreak from that…


----------



## brihard (7 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Bad lawyer or no lawyer, this has to be the first time anyone in Canada has been held this long pre-trial under these circumstances for the alleged crime of mischief. There have been a lot of bad "firsts" in the last few years.


You’ve never show caused someone on a mischief before and seen them held? Ok then.

Mischief, like many criminal offences, covers a wide range of behaviour. That‘a why it’s a hybrid offense, with up to ten years of prosecuted by indictment. In her case, she was a very active party in encouraging mischief on a scale covering many city blocks and negatively affecting thousands of people. She continued the offense when the illegality of it was made clear, and she counseled others to. That’s relatively higher end. I’ve had people held in custody for quite a bit less.

Like any bail hearing, there are primary (court attendance) secondary (protection of the public and preventing continuation) and tertiary (confidence in the justice system) grounds considered by the court. Lich was detained on the secondary and tertiary grounds. The crown’s case is very strong, and throughout her offending she showed contempt for the law and attempts to see it enforced, and she encouraged and counseled others to as well. Continued offending is absolutely a valid concern.

One of the key tools to mitigate this and to allow for a bail plan is to provide a surety who will pledge themselves and often put up considerable sums to control the accused’s behaviour on release. In Lich’s case, her surety was crap, and her bail hearing was a dumpster fire. I don’t know if her lawyer sucked or was simply poorly instructed, but Lich failed to offer to court enough confidence that she would not reoffend and would abide by release conditions,

Similar story for Pat King.

If she comes up with a materially better plan, she will likely get bail. Not sure if what she offered up last week will suffice. Accusing the bail judge of political bias is unlikely to cut it.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> If she comes up with a materially better plan, she will likely get bail. Not sure if what she offered up last week will suffice. Accusing the bail judge of political bias is unlikely to cut it.


Perhaps if she hadn’t quoted the American constitution during her representations?


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Perhaps if she hadn’t quoted the American constitution during her representations?


Pretty sure that was her husband...but yeah.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Mar 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Pretty sure that was her husband...but yeah.


I thought I recall her saying it too.  Her husband also had interesting memory gaps, like how it was he came to be invited into a free ride by private jet to Ottawa, IIRC.  I’m pretty sure I’d remember details around a Learjet/Citation/Gulfstream/Bombardier/whatever jet flight across the country.


----------



## QV (7 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> You’ve never show caused someone on a mischief before and seen them held? Ok then.
> 
> Mischief, like many criminal offences, covers a wide range of behaviour. That‘a why it’s a hybrid offense, with up to ten years of prosecuted by indictment. In her case, she was a very active party in encouraging mischief on a scale covering many city blocks and negatively affecting thousands of people. She continued the offense when the illegality of it was made clear, and she counseled others to. That’s relatively higher end. I’ve had people held in custody for quite a bit less.
> 
> ...



So today Lich has been granted bail. So there's that. I guess the court disagreed on the secondary and tertiary grounds submitted by the crown, the case wasn't that strong.


----------



## Navy_Pete (7 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> So today Lich has been granted bail. So there's that. I guess the court disagreed on the secondary and tertiary grounds submitted by the crown, the case wasn't that strong.


Or she got a surety from someone that knew what country they are living in, that understands basic bail conditions? It was a pretty low standard that the other people who got bail met, and she seemed to be able to sort out now.

It's almost like a plan to have 'God provide' doesn't really convince a judge you have real intentions to leave town the next day.

Curious how things will go for the lawyer that suggested the judge was biased though. Is a bollocking in chambers and general disrepute for looking like an absolute bellend on national news stories what we're looking at? Seems like a pretty solid Lionel Hutz move.


----------



## brihard (7 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> So today Lich has been granted bail. So there's that. I guess the court disagreed on the secondary and tertiary grounds submitted by the crown, the case wasn't that strong.


No, it means they feel that the improved surety plan means her behaviour can be adequately controlled. The judge found this new surety credible and capable of controlling her behaviour. I will concede that the judge did not find that there would likely be a lengthy sentence, which reduces the tertiary grounds.

She’s to leave Ottawa with 24 hours, Ontario within 72, and, interestingly, her conditions include basically a blanket social media ban, as well as not attending protests. So a bail plan with heavy emphasis on secondary grounds concerns.

Next up is Pat King on March 18th. That one should be fun.


----------



## Booter (7 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> So today Lich has been granted bail. So there's that. I guess the court disagreed on the secondary and tertiary grounds submitted by the crown, the case wasn't that strong.


Bail isn’t a trial on grounds. It’s a discussion about whether a release plan addresses the grounds.

But don’t worry about accuracy.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> Bail isn’t a trial on grounds. It’s a discussion about whether a release plan addresses the grounds.
> 
> But don’t worry about accuracy.


Speed forgives accuracy within 100 meters 


The information about bail is really interesting, thanks to you and Brihard for having the patience to explain it. 

I think a of lot Canadians like myself don't understand the mechanics of it so we scratch our head when absolute POS people get bail. The president of the Toronto Police Association and Doug Ford, among other prominent people, also seem to to not understand the bail process (for example the two mentioned peoples comments when accused Toronto police killer Umar Zameer was released on bail).


----------



## Haggis (7 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> Next up is Pat King on March 18th. That one should be fun.


Is he representing himself?


----------



## Remius (7 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> Is he representing himself?


He has a lawyer.  At one point he told king to shut up.


----------



## lenaitch (8 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Speed forgives accuracy within 100 meters
> 
> 
> The information about bail is really interesting, thanks to you and Brihard for having the patience to explain it.
> ...


Preaching to their respective choirs.


----------



## Booter (8 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Speed forgives accuracy within 100 meters
> 
> 
> The information about bail is really interesting, thanks to you and Brihard for having the patience to explain it.
> ...


Damn it jarnhamer. 🤦‍♀️ Your reasonable tone disarms me. 

Police associations are unions, they howl at the moon constantly and politically, if they don’t act outraged they loose their position at the trough. 

I find that most of how court works is kept behind exclusionary doors- be it the language or the process. And I honestly believe it shelters lawyers on both sides and judges from being accountable. 

They are always in a position to blame some external factor for a bad decision and really the things that are done- are pretty infrequent and generally mild. 

So bail- especially when we re awash in American information is a mystery. The second judge correctly observed that if she was kept in remand she would wind up exceeding what she would get from the courts IF found guilty, that and a more comprehensive release plan for her released.

Her issue is the national attention. So the crown really dug into the release plan- I believe that’s because there is a political interest in the case. Not because there is a direct line between the offices where things are being demanded or suggested- but because a crown can read the news, and see that any missed legal idea will be dragged out potentially- and their name will be attached. 

When Joe McDirt goes to a bail hearing everyone is just trying to get out early enough for lunch.


----------



## lenaitch (8 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> Damn it jarnhamer. 🤦‍♀️ Your reasonable tone disarms me.
> 
> Police associations are unions, they howl at the moon constantly and politically, if they don’t act outraged they loose their position at the trough.
> 
> ...


I'm not totally convinced there is an active or sinister effort to shroud the legal or judicial system; just a general public knowledge vacuum that gets filled by the entertainment media.  Heck, even within the profession, criminal law and procedure don't get a lot of non-elective time in law school and most practicing lawyer don't touch it.

It's the same with 'cop shows' and, as we have lived and seen over the past couple of years, the medical profession is equally mysterious to most of us.

I'm still trying to figure out how they get the cream inside a Caramilk bar.


----------



## Booter (8 Mar 2022)

I don’t believe it’s a sinister thing either. I just think the system has insulated itself against real reforms. There an awful amount of good people in that system too


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how they get the cream inside a Caramilk bar.


L, it’s caramel, so you’ll be a long time figuring out how cream goes in… 😉


----------



## QV (8 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> Bail isn’t a trial on grounds. It’s a discussion about whether a release plan addresses the grounds.
> 
> But don’t worry about accuracy.


Thanks for that nuance correction Booter. I've only conducted a handful of show cause hearings myself and it was years ago.


----------



## QV (8 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Curious how things will go for the lawyer that suggested the judge was biased though. Is a bollocking in chambers and general disrepute for looking like an absolute bellend on national news stories what we're looking at? Seems like a pretty solid Lionel Hutz move.


Even the appearance of bias needs to be addressed. This judge was a former LPC candidate, the accused was protesting the LPC government. 

I'm not sure that meets the threshold for recusing oneself as a judge if there are regulations on that sort of thing, but in the eyes of about 40% of the population and taking into consideration the highly political nature of all of this, it probably looks bad enough that if not recused it appears to be biased.


----------



## Scott (8 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Even the appearance of bias needs to be addressed. This judge was a former LPC candidate, the accused was protesting the LPC government.
> 
> I'm not sure that meets the threshold for recusing oneself as a judge if there are regulations on that sort of thing, but in the eyes of about 40% of the population and taking into consideration the highly political nature of all of this, it probably looks bad enough that if not recused it appears to be biased.


It was addressed. 

It doesn't come remotely close to meeting any threshold. 

Once again, go and read some of the reporting on the discussions - this was not even close.


----------



## FJAG (8 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> I find that most of how court works is kept behind exclusionary doors- be it the language or the process. And I honestly believe it shelters lawyers on both sides and judges from being accountable.


Nothing is behind closed doors. The court process is wide open to the public.

The fact of the matter is that watching the law in operation is like watching paint dry. It's slow; it's tedious; and of the spectators who show up, very few take a minute of their time to educate themselves in the process. And that includes most court reporters.

It's much easier to howl at the moon. To find some little event against which one can generate a burst of uneducated outrage.

Lawyers and judges are accountable. It's done every day. The fact of the matter is that we have one of the least corrupt justice systems in the world and most of the "offences" are at the level of not returning phone calls to each other in a timely fashion. Judges or lawyers who commit serious offences are dealt with both professionally and criminally where warranted. Oh - and all of those are open to the public as well.

Courts are there as a peaceful medium to assist in interpreting and applying the law. Some laws are good, clear and workable; others are muddled and vague. All are nevertheless the law as created by the representatives of the people through a democratically elected process. The fact that some people don't like a given law or dislike the way that it was applied is a given in a democracy. There will always be dissent - whether from a group of citizens with a special interest or an agency like a police union.

In a lot of ways social media is a boon but it has a dark side in that it's getting easier than ever for fringe groups to spread their particular venom around the country to people susceptible to that particular message. The mantra of "everyone else but me is lying to you" has taken hold in a way I never imagined possible even ten years ago. It's surprising that with more information available than ever before in history, we seem to becoming dumber than ever before in history. We educate ourselves with what we want to believe rather than with what is real.

There are some folks on this forum, like Brihard, who are both knowledgeable in the legal system's workings as well as fair in interpreting what is going on. But even there, we often do not have all the facts; we don't know every argument made or every piece of evidence that was presented in court on a given day. Every judicial decision is a matter of applying the law to the facts presented. Sitting as far removed from the courtroom as we all are we simply do not know what specific facts were presented and how they were applied to the law. News reports are the worst possible filters in delivering that information. Regretfully, most of the time, it's the best we have.

I'm not saying always give the benefit of the doubt to the judge. Judges, like everyone else, make mistakes from time to time. That's why we have appeal courts. All I'm saying is that jumping to a conclusion that a judge or prosecutor has some vague hidden political agenda to follow in a given case is wrong. The fact is that they are following an overt political agenda which has been set down by some democratically elected government in an open, public forum. Every law is a political statement made by the government that passed it. Every law is intended to create certain results. If the result is consistently unfair then don't blame the interpreters of the law, but elect a government that will change the law to one that will create fair results.

🍻


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2022)

Banks went beyond RCMP list of names in freezing a ‘small number’ of accounts under Emergencies Act: Bankers Association​[paywall]


> The Canadian Bankers Association told MPs Monday that a “small number” of additional accounts were frozen under the Emergencies Act based on the banks’ own “risk-based” reviews and were not on a list of names provided by the RCMP. Angelina Mason, the CBA’s general counsel and vice-president, made




RCMP gave banks police info on Ottawa protesters with list of accounts to freeze'​


> The RCMP told MPs Monday that it only gave the names of people directly involved in Ottawa protests to banks to freeze their accounts, and not supporters who donated to the so-called Freedom Convoy.
> 
> The lists of protesters given to banks* included personal details from the police database, such as whether protesters had been suspected of other crimes, had witnessed crimes or had other “dealings” with the police,* as well as personal information such as age and height.



Seems like an odd thing for the RCMP to pass on to banks, no?


----------



## QV (8 Mar 2022)

Rex Murphy hits it out of the park again.









						Rex Murphy: 'Slippages' in democracy? Justin Trudeau knows a lot about that
					

What would invoking the Emergencies Act over a truckers' protest be considered?




					nationalpost.com


----------



## QV (8 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Banks went beyond RCMP list of names in freezing a ‘small number’ of accounts under Emergencies Act: Bankers Association​[paywall]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That seems strangely improper, to say the least.


----------



## QV (8 Mar 2022)

We have elected leaders that feel it entirely within their power to bully the AG about a court case against friends of the PM/party (for lack of better term for SNC). Is it really a stretch to think a former LPC candidate, a judge in this case, would seek approval of the LPC in the Lich/Convoy/Protest/Bail situation? Though I'd like to believe a judge is beyond that, I'm fairly certain past events have demonstrated this behavior is beyond nobody in this day and age.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2022)

Because they've learned that the weather in Victoria is better, I suppose...


Trucks on way to occupy Victoria streets, convoy organizer says in video​ 
Hundreds of vehicles could occupy area for two to three months, he say

A Freedom Convoy organizer says trucks are on their way to Victoria from across Canada to gather and maybe stay on a rotating basis up to three months to protest vaccine mandates and indoor mask orders.

James Bauder, founder of Canada Unity and one of the founders of Freedom Convoy 2022 in Ottawa, said seven trucks loaded with supplies including 16,000 hamburgers are on the way.

The convoy is scheduled to arrive in Victoria on March 14, he said.

“We’re going to be occupying that area for two to three months,” Bauder said in a video posted online.

“This is a very intense, deeply rooted NDP-Liberal stronghold down there,” said Bauder. “And they’ve had their way for too long. It’s time we get down there and show them what the laws are and not your opinion, folks.”









						Trucks on way to occupy Victoria streets, convoy organizer says in video
					

Hundreds of vehicles could occupy area for two to three months, he says




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## McG (9 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Because they've learned that the weather in Victoria is better, I suppose...


But did they do the math on ferry crossings? Would be embarrassing if your protest can’t all get on the island because you did not do the crossing tables.



> “This is a very intense, deeply rooted NDP-Liberal stronghold down there,” said Bauder. “And they’ve had their way for too long. It’s time we get down there and show them what the laws are and not your opinion, folks.”


This is a little incoherent but … is his plan to bully the population because he does not like their local federal election results?


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Mar 2022)

McG said:


> But did they do the math on ferry crossings? Would be embarrassing if your protest can’t all get on the island because you did not do the crossing tables.
> 
> 
> This is a little incoherent but … is his plan to bully the population because he does not like their local federal election results?


Just a little incoherent? 

But political _incoherence_ has been he hallmark of this movement since it began, hasn't it?


----------



## QV (9 Mar 2022)

I believe there are already a few thousand locals protesting in Vic. I saw pics and video on social media but not the news.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Because they've learned that the weather in Victoria is better, I suppose...


Certainly not because the gas is cheaper ....


----------



## brihard (9 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> That seems strangely improper, to say the least.


No, not really. Banks regularly demarket clients or freeze accounts based on perceived legal risk, with or without information provided by police. This is routinely seen in money laundering investigations for instance.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Mar 2022)

McG said:


> This is a little incoherent but … is his plan to bully the population because he does not like their local federal election results?



Incoherent seems to be Bauder's M.O.


----------



## Weinie (9 Mar 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Certainly not because the gas is cheaper ....


But they will be parked, so gas won’t be an issue.


----------



## Journeyman (9 Mar 2022)

Ukrainian patriots help each other. Misguided U.S. [and Canadian] ‘patriots’ just can’t help themselves | Opinion



			https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article259195918.html


----------



## QV (9 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> No, not really. Banks regularly demarket clients or freeze accounts based on perceived legal risk, with or without information provided by police. This is routinely seen in money laundering investigations for instance.



Ok Brihard if you say so. I'll wait for all the news reports when the RCMP and banks do this to other notable protestors and their bankrollers.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> But they will be parked, so gas won’t be an issue.


... until they have to leave


----------



## brihard (9 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Ok Brihard if you say so. I'll wait for all the news reports when the RCMP and banks do this to other notable protestors and their bankrollers.


I say so from personal experience working on a money laundering file where the banks identified individuals moving money in a way that appeared potentially illegal, demarketed certain customers from some or all services, and reported that information to appropriate authorities.

Banks are heavily risk adverse. If they feel they may be exposed to legal liability for complicity in money laundering, terrorist financing, or sanctions evasion, they’ll act proactively. In this case, with new federal regulations - albeit temporary ones - put into effect, they likely erred on the side of caution based on information available to them, and minimized their legal exposure.

Unusual circumstances, but pretty routine mechanism.


----------



## tomydoom (9 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I say so from personal experience working on a money laundering file where the banks identified individuals moving money in a way that appeared potentially illegal, demarketed certain customers from some or all services, and reported that information to appropriate authorities.
> 
> Banks are heavily risk adverse. If they feel they may be exposed to legal liability for complicity in money laundering, terrorist financing, or sanctions evasion, they’ll act proactively. In this case, with new federal regulations - albeit temporary ones - put into effect, they likely erred on the side of caution based on information available to them, and minimized their legal exposure.
> 
> Unusual circumstances, but pretty routine mechanism.


I actually work for an international bank, I can attest to the above.  We have to complete annual money laundering and sanctions compliance training.   Failure to block and report suspected money laundering can result in action against the employee and the bank.  These include, loss of job for the employee and fines for both the bank and the employee.  Further, the financial institution may be put under supervision by the regulators.  So, needless to say, this is something that is taken VERY seriously.


----------



## QV (9 Mar 2022)

tomydoom said:


> I actually work for an international bank, I can attest to the above.  We have to complete annual money laundering and sanctions compliance training.   Failure to block and report suspected money laundering can result in action against the employee and the bank.  These include, loss of job for the employee and fines for both the bank and the employee.  Further, the financial institution may be put under supervision by the regulators.  So, needless to say, this is something that is taken VERY seriously.


Right as per FINTRAC.

And now that we’ve declared the convoy protestors on the same level as those who commit money laundering crimes I’ll await similar treatment for all the other protests that have been and will be actually violent and/or carry out massive property damage.

Question, have the bank accounts been frozen for the perpetrators or those connected to the domestic terror attack on O&G infrastructure in BC yet, or is this standard only applied to those Trudeau doesn’t agree with?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Whether one agrees/supports the Truck Convoy or not, it succeeded in:
> 
> -Highlighting issues and shortcomings in our policing
> -Highlighting issues and problems in Ottawa with the police board
> ...



An additional point . . .


----------



## QV (9 Mar 2022)

Didn’t David Suzuki say something about blowing up pipelines? He’s a fairly influential guy… did we freeze anything there? Anyone looking into his background on that?


----------



## tomydoom (9 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> Right as per FINTRAC.
> 
> And now that we’ve declared the convoy protestors on the same level as those who commit money laundering crimes I’ll await similar treatment for all the other protests that have been and will be actually violent and/or carry out massive property damage.
> 
> Question, have the bank accounts been frozen for the perpetrators or those connected to the domestic terror attack on O&G infrastructure in BC yet, or is this standard only applied to those Trudeau doesn’t agree with?


I have no idea what is going on inside Canadian retail banks, as I am based in Dublin.  However, as I said, if the banks risk management department has determined that money laundering, terrorist financing, or sanction avoidance is likely to be occurring, they are legally obligated to take action. I would “assume” that the various orders made under the emergencies act, would be the basis for the financial institutions taking the actions they did. This is not a matter of the banks “taking a side” or being political. The banks are obeying the law, and likely erring on the side of caution.


----------



## OceanBonfire (9 Mar 2022)

> Much like the misinformation that fueled some of the trucks headed for Ottawa, conspiracy theories are at the core of some of their conversations about Ukraine — leading them to decry Western intervention in the conflict, or in some cases, express outright support for Russia.
> 
> “I fully support Russia,” wrote one Telegram user in the channel titled Convoy to Ottawa 2022, which has just shy of 30,000 subscribers.











						‘Freedom convoy’ forums find new focus: disinformation about Russia-Ukraine war - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Some pro-convoy forums have shifted from posting misinformation about COVID-19 to posting misinformation about the Russia-Ukraine war.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## brihard (9 Mar 2022)

tomydoom said:


> I have no idea what is going on inside Canadian retail banks, as I am based in Dublin.  However, as I said, if the banks risk management department has determined that money laundering, terrorist financing, or sanction avoidance is likely to be occurring, they are legally obligated to take action. I would “assume” that the various orders made under the emergencies act, would be the basis for the financial institutions taking the actions they did. This is not a matter of the banks “taking a side” or being political. The banks are obeying the law, and likely erring on the side of caution.


Yup. And then for police to do anything with the financial information in terms of investigating to lay charges, there are considerable due process safeguards, particularly the need to get authorization from the court to obtain and access records that would otherwise violate someone’s privacy, whether by production order or search warrant. There are a lot of protections of an individual’s rights in place.


----------



## kev994 (9 Mar 2022)

I saw a solution to this in one of the other threads.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Mar 2022)

Nah.  Caltrops.  Cheap and easy to make.  Surprised they aren't in common use by all the various shit-disturbers.


----------



## Furniture (10 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Nah.  Caltrops.  Cheap and easy to make.  Surprised they aren't in common use by all the various shit-disturbers.


I won't lie... I am surprised they haven't been used against riot police/horses before.


----------



## McG (10 Mar 2022)

Leaders of truck convoy protests sought to overthrow government, Canada’s national security adviser says 
I mean, sure. That was right in the manifesto. The Governor General and opposition parties were supposed to help.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2022)

Bracing for impact:

Protests allowed, but not occupations, says solicitor general​ 
One of the founders of the “freedom convoy” that occupied Ottawa for three weeks has said in a video posted to social media that a convoy of trucks is headed to Victoria.










						Protests allowed, but not occupations, says solicitor general
					

One of the founders of the “freedom convoy” that occupied Ottawa for three weeks has said in a video posted to social media that a convoy of trucks is headed to Victoria.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## brihard (10 Mar 2022)

McG said:


> Leaders of truck convoy protests sought to overthrow government, Canada’s national security adviser says
> I mean, sure. That was right in the manifesto. The Governor General and opposition parties were supposed to help.


It’s consistent with what a bunch of them were screaming in my face for a whole weekend too. Turn around and march up to Parliament with them to throw out/arrest the government and PM. So, I find this pretty credible…


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Bracing for impact:
> 
> One of the founders of the “freedom convoy” that occupied Ottawa for three weeks has said in a video posted to social media that a convoy of trucks is headed to Victoria.



Learn from Ottawa's mistake. Barricade streets (to a degree) and/or set up check points. Allow the _people_ in but not the trucks and other crap (like BBQs, etc.)


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s consistent with what a bunch of them were screaming in my face for a whole weekend too. Turn around and march up to Parliament with them to throw out/arrest the government and PM. So, I find this pretty credible…


Yup, some of the best high-priced hind-sight going.  Money well spent on this NSIA, it is!  No wonder DND was running so smoothly for the last five years with her at the administrative helm…. 🙄


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s consistent with what a bunch of them were screaming in my face for a whole weekend too. Turn around and march up to Parliament with them to throw out/arrest the government and PM. So, I find this pretty credible…



I believe that they tend to describe themselves as 'Patriots':


----------



## brihard (10 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yup, some of the best high-priced hind-sight going.  Money well spent on this NSIA, it is!  No wonder DND was running so smoothly for the last five years with her at the administrative helm…. 🙄


_shrug_ I’m just saying my personal observations, in a very minor way, corroborate the assertion being made. I’ve got no opinion on the person sitting in that particular office or if she’s any good at this role. I have no clue.


----------



## Weinie (10 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> _shrug_ I’m just saying my personal observations, in a very minor way, corroborate the assertion being made. I’ve got no opinion on the person sitting in that particular office or if she’s any good at this role. I have no clue.


There are two realities here. One, on the ground that you experienced first-hand, and another, at the the strategic level. Unfortunately, the congruence between these two was never realized.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> _shrug_ I’m just saying my personal observations, in a very minor way, corroborate the assertion being made. I’ve got no opinion on the person sitting in that particular office or if she’s any good at this role. I have no clue.


Both true at the same time.  No harm, no foul.


----------



## brihard (10 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> There are two realities here. One, on the ground that you experienced first-hand, and another, at the the strategic level. Unfortunately, the congruence between these two was never realized.


I’m not suggesting that their motivation, desires, and intentions coalesced into anything resembling a coherent _strategy_ that could achieve those things. They executed their tantrum with all the grace and efficacy of a young, screaming child who reaches out to sweep stuff off the shelf of the grocery store while Mom bodily carries him out.

What they _wanted_ or _demanded_ was simply
made very clear at the coal face level, and is congruent with the stated verbal and written intentions of those who took on an ideological… ‘leadership’ role. It stopped being about truckers before they even crossed into Ontario.


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not suggesting that their motivation, desires, and intentions coalesced into anything resembling a coherent _strategy_ that could achieve those things. They executed their tantrum with all the grace and efficacy of a young, screaming child who reaches out to sweep stuff off the shelf of the grocery store while Mom bodily carries him out.
> 
> What they _wanted_ or _demanded_ was simply
> made very clear at the coal face level, and is congruent with the stated verbal and written intentions of those who took on an ideological… ‘leadership’ role. It stopped being about truckers before they even crossed into Ontario.


I still go with incoherence.

But, I was impressed with the operations management and, especially, the logistical support of the "occupation" which still seems, too me, to be totally out of synch with the juvenile political aims.

In my almost daily walkabouts ~ which involved very few direct interactions because I keep to myself ~ I found the few people with whom I did speak to be (or to pretend to be) quite unaware of the so-called "MOU" that DID propose overthrowing the government. In one particular case I had to direct one small group to parliament (the West Block) because they thought the Supreme Court was it.


----------



## Weinie (10 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not suggesting that their motivation, desires, and intentions coalesced into anything resembling a coherent _strategy_ that could achieve those things. They executed their tantrum with all the grace and efficacy of a young, screaming child who reaches out to sweep stuff off the shelf of the grocery store while Mom bodily carries him out.
> 
> What they _wanted_ or _demanded_ was simply
> made very clear at the coal face level, and is congruent with the stated verbal and written intentions of those who took on an ideological… ‘leadership’ role. It stopped being about truckers before they even crossed into Ontario.


I was perhaps being obtuse in my reply.  For that I apologize. 

The two realities that I referred to were a) the reality that you encountered, and b) the reality that the governments at various levels encountered. 

And one could ascribe your quote _"They executed their tantrum with all the grace and efficacy of a young, screaming child" _to both the protestors and the gov'ts.

0.02


----------



## Eaglelord17 (11 Mar 2022)

I don't see what the issue with them wanting the government overthrown/to step down is. Plenty of protests around the world, especially when people are mistreated or see themselves as mistreated, demand the government to step down or be overthrown. Generally if a protest doesn't want any sort of significant change, they tend not to happen in the first place. The key question here is whether or not they intended to utilize force to make that happen, and considering they just sat there for 3 weeks unarmed, I don't think they met that criteria. 

Asking the Governor General and Opposition to take over isn't really trying to overthrow a government through force, though it does demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of our political system.


----------



## Remius (11 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I don't see what the issue with them wanting the government overthrown/to step down is. Plenty of protests around the world, especially when people are mistreated or see themselves as mistreated, demand the government to step down or be overthrown. Generally if a protest doesn't want any sort of significant change, they tend not to happen in the first place. The key question here is whether or not they intended to utilize force to make that happen, and considering they just sat there for 3 weeks unarmed, I don't think they met that criteria.
> 
> Asking the Governor General and Opposition to take over isn't really trying to overthrow a government through force, though it does demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of our political system.



The issue is they wanted a seat at the table of the coalition that would have replaced the government.

At one point the protest (early in the protest), it went from lawful to unlawful.  It crossed the line and went from protest to some form of extortion exercise.


----------



## mariomike (11 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s consistent with what a bunch of them were screaming in my face for a whole weekend too. Turn around and march up to Parliament with them to throw out/arrest the government and PM.





brihard said:


> They executed their tantrum with all the grace and efficacy of a young, screaming child who reaches out to sweep stuff off the shelf of the grocery store while Mom bodily carries him out.



Interesting to read how it was on the front-line.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2022)

And now Ontario is dropping most mask mandates on March 21st, and the remainder in April. 

Last month the government wouldn't even commit to tabling a _plan_ to end covid restrictions.


----------



## Remius (11 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> And now Ontario is dropping most mask mandates on March 21st, and the remainder in April.
> 
> Last month the government wouldn't even commit to tabling a _plan_ to end covid restrictions.


Ontario had a plan before all of that with March being the target date to loosen restrictions depending on how and when we weathered Omicron.   Some people chose to not listen or not hear.

I would think that the Feds would take their cue from the provinces in that regard.  But yes, the Feds didn’t really communicate very well, even when this started.


----------



## mariomike (11 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I would think that the Feds would take their cue from the provinces in that regard.



Regarding the federal Air and Rail vaccination mandate, in case anyone is looking for a job,

Mar 09, 2022









						Union not obligated to grieve Air Canada's decision to enforce federal vaccine mandate, labour board rules
					

'The union concluded that it believed in vaccination and that if some employees were affected by the new policy, they would conduct individual grievances'




					nationalpost.com
				






> VIA Rail requires that all members of its staff be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 and provide proof as a condition of employment


----------



## Haggis (11 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I would think that the Feds would take their cue from the provinces in that regard.  But yes, the Feds didn’t really communicate very well, even when this started.


We were told that TB will drop the federal mask mandate once all provinces have permanently dropped theirs, likely no sooner than June.  The House of Commons announced that their mask mandate will remain in place until the House rises for the summer on June 23rd.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (11 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> The issue is they wanted a seat at the table of the coalition that would have replaced the government.
> 
> At one point the protest (early in the protest), it went from lawful to unlawful.  It crossed the line and went from protest to some form of extortion exercise.


 Considering most protest groups that is what they are demanding (BLM and such for police councils and oversight, Natives for forcing the government to negotiate with them/force control over land, etc.), again what is the cause of alarm?

I am not surprised also considering that they mainly are made up of at least the 5% which voted for the PPC and were disenfranchised by our current democratic system. 

When a democratic system fails to represent their constituents, it loses legitimacy in the eyes of those disenfranchised. The fact they fail to understand how our democracy works is a whole other issue.

Still haven’t convinced me the Emergencies act was anywhere near justified in this process. The provinces still had cards in their decks to deal with this, they chose not to use them.


----------



## QV (11 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> I was perhaps being obtuse in my reply.  For that I apologize.
> 
> The two realities that I referred to were a) the reality that you encountered, and b) the reality that the governments at various levels encountered.
> 
> ...


I suggest the government got to that stage far quicker. The protestors wanted to be heard and the federal government kicked things off with saying they don't listen to racists/misogynist filth with unacceptable views etc. Of course that approach will escalate things.


----------



## QV (11 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> We were told that TB will drop the federal mask mandate once all provinces have permanently dropped theirs, likely no sooner than June.  The House of Commons announced that their mask mandate will remain in place until the House rises for the summer on June 23rd.


So even if one province keeps masking even part time, the TB will carry on as well?


----------



## Haggis (11 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> So even if one province keeps masking even part time, the TB will carry on as well?


Good question.  As always, the federal direction is ambiguous.  My understanding was that discretionary provincial mask policies would not impact federal employees.


----------



## Remius (11 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Considering most protest groups that is what they are demanding (BLM and such for police councils and oversight, Natives for forcing the government to negotiate with them/force control over land, etc.), again what is the cause of alarm?
> 
> I am not surprised also considering that they mainly are made up of at least the 5% which voted for the PPC and were disenfranchised by our current democratic system.
> 
> ...


You’ll get no argument from me about the EA.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup. And then for police to do anything with the financial information in terms of investigating to lay charges, there are considerable due process safeguards, particularly the need to get authorization from the court to obtain and access records that would otherwise violate someone’s privacy, whether by production order or search warrant. There are a lot of protections of an individual’s rights in place.


Very true.  My wife works for a Bank and Banks are very sensitive towards people's privacy.  Violating it is a pretty good cause to get fired.

Police will come to a Bank and ask for something, the first word of the Bank's mouth will usually be, "got a warrant?".

It works the same way for people's personal finances.  My wife has dealt with some pretty messy shit WRT divorces, people fighting over money, etc.

The Bank has fiduciary obligations to their clients and if something isn't in a client's best interest, they won't act on it, even with a lawyer saying they have to.


----------



## McG (11 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I am not surprised also considering that they mainly are made up of at least the 5% which voted for the PPC and were disenfranchised by our current democratic system.
> 
> When a democratic system fails to represent their constituents, it loses legitimacy in the eyes of those disenfranchised. The fact they fail to understand how our democracy works is a whole other issue.


Had they recognized the source of their grievance (disenfranchisement) as opposed to a symptom (masks), they might have been able to draw out more support from across the political spectrum. Then again, there were probably a lot of participants in the protests and occupation who would not have believed that what they really wanted was electoral reform, so they might not have showed to a protest that actually addressed the cause of their concern.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (11 Mar 2022)

McG said:


> Had they recognized the source of their grievance (disenfranchisement) as opposed to a symptom (masks), they might have been able to draw out more support from across the political spectrum. Then again, there were probably a lot of participants in the protests and occupation who would not have believed that what they really wanted was electoral reform, so they might not have showed to a protest that actually addressed the cause of their concern.


That is one cause, arguably the largest (though they didn’t see it as such). The masks, mandates, and other restrictions on citizens rights is a legitimate reason to be angry as well. 

Coupled with a government which is hell bent on pushing through its policies, many of which are questionable as to its effectiveness (firearms being a simple example), you end up with a disenfranchised angry minority. 

I am shocked anyone showed up to protest, its the middle of winter in Canada. We don’t really protest much to begin with, and almost never in the winter.


----------



## QV (11 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Very true.  My wife works for a Bank and Banks are very sensitive towards people's privacy.  Violating it is a pretty good cause to get fired.
> 
> Police will come to a Bank and ask for something, the first word of the Bank's mouth will usually be, "got a warrant?".
> 
> ...


Except for the convoy protesters after the EA was invoked.


----------



## brihard (11 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Very true.  My wife works for a Bank and Banks are very sensitive towards people's privacy.  Violating it is a pretty good cause to get fired.
> 
> Police will come to a Bank and ask for something, the first word of the Bank's mouth will usually be, "got a warrant?".
> 
> ...


That’s not precisely accurate.

Generally we’ll serve them a production order, not a warrant. Tough to go in and physically search a bank and come out with records you’re seeking. A production order compels a third party who possesses records and who is not a suspect themselves to hand those records over. A Justice of the Peace must be convinced by a police officer that there’s reasonable grounds to believe the bank possesses specific records that will afford evidence of an offence.

Banks do a number of things that may not be in the clients’ best interests, because the law/lawyers say they have to. Banks are subject to numerous laws, in particular the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act (PCMLFTA). This is the act that empowers FINTRAC. Banks are one of a number of entities who have to report suspicious transactions, or transactions over a specific threshold, to FINTRAC. This might end up shared with police. If a customer is laundering money it’s definitely not in their best interest for the bank to report that, but the bank will generally still do so- if they notice the suspicious activity. Sheer volume of banking activity means they often don’t until we start sniffing and they discover a customer may be dirty.

So yes, banks guard customer privacy fiercely- but will also obey the law.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s not precisely accurate.
> 
> Generally we’ll serve them a production order, not a warrant. Tough to go in and physically search a bank and come out with records you’re seeking. A production order compels a third party who possesses records and who is not a suspect themselves to hand those records over. A Justice of the Peace must be convinced by a police officer that there’s reasonable grounds to believe the bank possesses specific records that will afford evidence of an offence.
> 
> ...


Informative and thanks for correcting my terminology.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> So yes, banks guard customer privacy fiercely- but will also obey the law.


Was it out of place for police to give banks information on when people were arrested or what they were arrested for? Or the other info they provided banks about some members?


----------



## brihard (11 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Was it out of place for police to give banks information on when people were arrested or what they were arrested for? Or the other info they provided banks about some members?


I’m not up to speed on specifically what information was shared by police and what the criteria was, I’ve been too jammed up with other things to follow that part closely, sorry. Only bit I’d really read on was the banks seemingly assembling their own lists based on OSINT and the GiveSendGo hack and acting on that.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2022)

Ottawa police and Tow trucks
Ottawa police officers charged in tow-truck kickback scheme resign from force​


> Two Ottawa police officers charged with corruption offences in a tow-truck kickback scheme have resigned as police officers and have had all but one of their criminal charges stayed by a Crown prosecutor.
> 
> Constables Andrew Chronopoulos and Kevin Putinski appeared in court Friday afternoon for the resolution to their criminal case and the end of their short careers as police officers. Both have been suspended with pay since April 2020 when they were first charged by the RCMP's anti-corruption unit in a nearly yearlong probe.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not up to speed on specifically what information was shared by police and what the criteria was, I’ve been too jammed up with other things to follow that part closely, sorry.


All good dude. 

I've found an article that said 


> The lists of protesters given to banks included personal details from the police database, such as *whether protesters had been suspected of other crimes, had witnessed crimes or had other "dealings" with the police*, as well as personal information such as age and height.



That just seemed strange info to provide banks about their clients.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ottawa police and Tow trucks
> Ottawa police officers charged in tow-truck kickback scheme resign from force​


Chronopoulos must have got hired purely based on his CAF cred LOL:


Guy looks like an absolute boy scout in this photo LOL.  Didn't think you were allowed to wear CAF skill badges not on a CAF uniform 🤔


----------



## brihard (12 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Chronopoulos must have got hired purely based on his CAF cred LOL:
> 
> View attachment 69435
> Guy looks like an absolute boy scout in this photo LOL.  Didn't think you were allowed to wear CAF skill badges not on a CAF uniform 🤔


I’ve seen several members of OPS wearing a few different skill badges.

I was super disappointed when Chrono got caught up in this stupid bullshit. $100k a year job plus OT and you take bribes from tow trucks? Friggin’ pathetic.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ve seen several members of OPS wearing a few different skill badges.
> 
> I was super disappointed when Chrono got caught up in this stupid bullshit. $100k a year job plus OT and you take bribes from tow trucks? Friggin’ pathetic.


Honestly, nothing surprises me anymore.  Especially re:  money.  Some people are never satisfied and will do anything to get it.

I am more surprised at how little he was making to piss it all away.

What I am surprised about is how you get a "stay of proceedings" in exchange for resigning from your job? When has your employment ever had anything to do with it?


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ve seen several members of OPS wearing a few different skill badges.
> 
> I was super disappointed when Chrono got caught up in this stupid bullshit. $100k a year job plus OT and you take bribes from tow trucks? Friggin’ pathetic.


----------



## lenaitch (13 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Honestly, nothing surprises me anymore.  Especially re:  money.  Some people are never satisfied and will do anything to get it.
> 
> I am more surprised at how little he was making to piss it all away.
> 
> What I am surprised about is how you get a "stay of proceedings" in exchange for resigning from your job? When has your employment ever had anything to do with it?


Both of the charges he was facing are 'trust-based' with a straight line between their office of employment and the criminal charges.  Both sides apparently felt that the agreement adequately served the public interest.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ve seen several members of OPS wearing a few different skill badges.


How is that viewed by other officers? It seems a little ostentatious to me but maybe officers find it impressive. 



> I was super disappointed when Chrono got caught up in this stupid bullshit. $100k a year job plus OT and you take bribes from tow trucks? Friggin’ pathetic.


Super weird for sure. Collecting $200,000 sitting at home probably didn't hurt but losing his job over what probably amounts to pizza money was stupid. Seems to have got off light all things considered. 

I'm sure the CAF would take him back.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Both of the charges he was facing are 'trust-based' with a straight line between their office of employment and the criminal charges.  Both sides apparently felt that the agreement adequately served the public interest.


The crown said it was "on the lower end of the police corruption scale" .

I personally think police taking bribes and committing fraud is a pretty big deal.


----------



## lenaitch (13 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The crown said it was "on the lower end of the police corruption scale" .
> 
> I personally think police taking bribes and committing fraud is a pretty big deal.


I can only assume the Crown was commenting on the actual dollar amounts involved - maybe they meant something else, but I agree, corruption in any part of the justice system has little room for grey.  I still see merit in the outcome; a guaranteed positive outcome vs. a trial that is always an unknown until the end.  It also ends his income and saves the trial costs.


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2022)

He ends up losing his job (one that involves trust) and a salary he’ll have a hard time finding elsewhere after this.  Not to mention lost future wages.

Then consider his loss of pension.  There’s a good chance he transferred his CAF pension to his OPS one.  Down the toilet now. 

I’m sure he can transfer his pension value to a locked in RRSP or get a return of contributions but that would be the biggest hit.

All for what?  A hundred dollars?


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> He ends up losing his job (one that involves trust) and a salary he’ll have a hard time finding elsewhere after this.  Not to mention lost future wages.
> 
> Then consider his loss of pension.  There’s a good chance he transferred his CAF pension to his OPS one.  Down the toilet now.
> 
> ...



Looking at that pic is say I'd he wanted to make money in the merc would it probably wouldn't be too difficult for him to fall in there.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> All for what?  A hundred dollars?


Just think of the damage he could have caused once the criminal elements started to strong-arm him.  The public got lucky...


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Looking at that pic is say I'd he wanted to make money in the merc would it probably wouldn't be too difficult for him to fall in there.


I’m sure he could.  I guess his family life might be a factor in that.


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Just think of the damage he could have caused once the criminal elements started to strong-arm him.  The public got lucky...


Oh I know.  I’m just saying he threw his career away over a hundred dollars.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Then consider his loss of pension.





> Down the toilet now.



Why would he lose his OMERS pension?

Disgraced Ottawa police officer to keep pension​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/disgraced-ottawa-police-officer-to-keep-pension-1.912143
		





> "Quit? Fired? Doesn't matter," said John Pierce, a spokesman for Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System, which administers pension funds for most Ontario police departments.





> "It's irrelevant to OMERS how a person leaves their job. A clawback of accrued pension benefits is not legal under the Pension Benefits Act."


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> Why would he lose his OMERS pension?
> 
> Disgraced Ottawa police officer to keep pension​
> 
> ...



Chronopoulus is 38.   Like I said, he could get a return of contributions or a transfer to a locked in RRSP.  

Does OMERS have a déferrement?

Either way he’s botched what he could have gotten. 

I should have said “loss to his pension”.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Does OMERS have a déferrement?



I've been in OMERS 50 years ( come Sept. ) .

I don't know about deferrments.  But, you can look it up here,






						Supplemental Plan
					

The OMERS Supplemental Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics offers optional benefits for members of the police sector, firefighters and paramedics. As an OMERS employer, you may offer a benefit to a specific class or classes of employees.




					www.omers.com
				






Remius said:


> There’s a good chance he transferred his CAF pension to his OPS one.  Down the toilet now.



For that discussion,









						CF Pension to OMERS
					

Done a search, nothing found...hence..   Anyone on here transferred their pension to OMERS? I'd like to do so, and believe I can, however when I got the pension package mailed to me it had already been partially filled out, in that the block where you chose 'A- Deferred annuity B- Transfer to...




					army.ca


----------



## brihard (13 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The crown said it was "on the lower end of the police corruption scale" .
> 
> I personally think police taking bribes and committing fraud is a pretty big deal.


They may be comparing it directly to the third officer who was charged in this case and who has _not_ been offered this deal. The stunt he was planning quite a bit higher up the scale, based on what has been reported openly.



Jarnhamar said:


> How is that viewed by other officers? It seems a little ostentatious to me but maybe officers find it impressive.



Probably ‘meh’, mostly. I’ll admit it took me by surprise the first time I saw an officer with the close protection badge on his vest. I’ve seen one or two with jump wings too. OPS has quite a cadres of members with time in Petawawa or other military sites in the Ottawa area. Some wear some of the bling, some don’t.


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> I've been in OMERS 50 years ( come Sept. ) .
> 
> I don't know about deferments.  But, you can look it up here,
> 
> ...


Right so a guy with 2 years on the force, and I guess 2 years of leave with pay would give him 4 years of pensionable time?  That he can defer to age 60 assuming OMERS allows that.


mariomike said:


> I've been in OMERS 50 years ( come Sept. ) .
> 
> I don't know about deferrments.  But, you can look it up here,
> 
> ...


Reading that it seems that he can defer.  So he can collect what would be 4 years of pensionable time at age 60.

Unless he transferred his regular force pension before he resigned.  

Either way he takes a big loss on his pension.

Stupid.


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> They may be comparing it directly to the third officer who was charged in this case and who has _not_ been offered this deal. The stunt he was planning quite a bit higher up the scale, based on what has been reported openly.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably ‘meh’, mostly. I’ll admit it took me by surprise the first time I saw an officer with the close protection badge on his vest. I’ve seen one or two with jump wings too. OPS has quite a cadres of members with time in Petawawa or other military sites in the Ottawa area. Some wear some of the bling, some don’t.


Medals and ribbons I get. 

But qualification badges and pins?  That seems a bit of a stretch but I guess OPS has its own dress regs.  

I’ve seen some RCMP wear medals they received in the CAF as they are recognized in the Canadian order of decorations but I haven’t seen Any qualification pins or badges.  I also think they have a policy where you can wear your CD until you qualify for your long service medal at which point you have to replace it as only one long service decoration can be worn (both the CD and police long service medal are national in nature if I recall)

I might have that wrong so feel free to correct me.


----------



## brihard (13 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Medals and ribbons I get.
> 
> But qualification badges and pins?  That seems a bit of a stretch but I guess OPS has its own dress regs.
> 
> ...



Definitely not. Canadian Honours System is the Canadian Honours System. I’ve been on parade with Mounties on a few occasions and have seen quite a mix of H&A earned in both RCMP and CAF. While a CD / RCMP long service medal combo wouldn’t be something you’d see often, there are definitely Mounties who stuck with PRes or CIC and eventually got both. Separately, some of their deployments qualify for OSM, and they still send a decent number of people on peacekeeping missions. If I had to guess, you might be thinking of police that lateral from one service to the next. Someone who does 8 years as an MP won’t earn the CD, but those eight years can credit to the Police Exemplary Service Medal. Same if someone got out of the RCMP. Though I don’t know if the RCMP will take municipal/provincial/MP service and credit it to their medal.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I still see merit in the outcome; a guaranteed positive outcome vs. a trial that is always an unknown until the end.  It also ends his income and saves the trial costs.


I don't disagree but I also feel the public may see this as these officers getting off the hook easy. Yes they lose their jobs and benefits and pension. They're also police officers who were taking bribes. They weren't even fired, I'm sure they still get priority hiring.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Mar 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Both of the charges he was facing are 'trust-based' with a straight line between their office of employment and the criminal charges.  Both sides apparently felt that the agreement adequately served the public interest.


I see what I missed initially.  Both Officers whose charges were stayed in exchange for their resignation are also testifying against the two Officers still facing charges.

It all makes sense now 😎


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Right so a guy with 2 years on the force,





Jarnhamar said:


> How is that viewed by other officers? It seems a little ostentatious to me but maybe officers find it impressive.



As I recall, what was "impressive" ( if that was the right word ) in emergency services was worn on the lower left jacket sleeve.

One Year of Service insignia for every five years on your department.

City of Ottawa also wears them.

As for if his CAF experience got him "special hiring consideration", a dozen pages about that,









						CF experience relevant to RCMP, civ policing? (merged)
					

Hey Sir Mariomike,  Yes #174 is me. I understand that joining the police service, all must start from the bottom.   May I ask, did you serve in the military as medtech?   Medical field and policing are two different responsibilities (quoting JesseWZ), and I am wondering if it is not a bad or...




					army.ca
				




QUOTE

*Q: *I am a current/past member of the military. Do I get special consideration?

*A:* Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate.






						Toronto Police Service
					






					www.torontopolice.on.ca
				




END QUOTE

That's Toronto. Not sure if OPS policy is any different?


----------



## brihard (13 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I see what I missed initially.  Both Officers whose charges were stayed in exchange for their resignation are also testifying against the two Officers still facing charges.
> 
> It all makes sense now 😎


I missed that too. Yup.

Chronopoulos was very new- less than two years when this happened. I think the other guy who’s resigning was junior too. The other dude, very much not. I guess possibly these two were flipped?


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Mar 2022)

Not sure if this gem was posted.

Toronto MP thinks a Freedom Convoy term is call for Hitler​


> A Toronto Liberal MP appears to believe that horn honking during the Freedom Convoy protests in Ottawa is a call for Adolf Hitler.
> 
> During Monday’s debate on the Emergencies Act invoked by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Ya’ara Saks, who represents York Centre, defended the use of the Act to remove protesters from the Parliament Hill area while referring to “honk honk” — a term used on social media to support the trucker convoy — as code for supporting Hitler.
> 
> “How many guns need to be seized?* How much vitriol do we have to see of ‘honk honk,’ which is a new acronym of ‘Heil Hitler,'” said Saks.* “What do we need to see by these protesters on social media?”


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not sure if this gem was posted.
> 
> Toronto MP thinks a Freedom Convoy term is call for Hitler​


And ya wonder why some of these guys get painted as crazies ...


----------



## brihard (20 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not sure if this gem was posted.
> 
> Toronto MP thinks a Freedom Convoy term is call for Hitler​


Well that’s friggin’ stupid.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Mar 2022)

I was hoping there would be one of those conspiricy break downs about the number of letters used, their numerical place in the alphabet, BEDMAS.

Talk about low effort.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Mar 2022)

Sounds to me like a situation where some obscure neo-Nazis make it their “thing” (“Tee-hee, aren’t we clever!”) which gets picked up by the hyper-vigilant anti-racist types, which then go “Ah ha!  Evidence of neo-Nazis!”  Much like how the “ok” hand symbol is now seen as a symbol of “white power”.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Mar 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Sounds to me like a situation where some obscure neo-Nazis make it their “thing” (“Tee-hee, aren’t we clever!”) which gets picked up by the hyper-vigilant anti-racist types, which then go “Ah ha!  Evidence of neo-Nazis!”  Much like how the “ok” hand symbol is now seen as a symbol of “white power”.


It's also the ASL sign for "asshole".


----------



## brihard (20 Mar 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Sounds to me like a situation where some obscure neo-Nazis make it their “thing” (“Tee-hee, aren’t we clever!”) which gets picked up by the hyper-vigilant anti-racist types, which then go “Ah ha!  Evidence of neo-Nazis!”  Much like how the “ok” hand symbol is now seen as a symbol of “white power”.


While there’s certainly overlap between the white supremacy movement and other hard right elements, including the convoy protests and some of their ideological leadership, (see, for instance the presence and involvement of individuals affiliated with Diagolon, plus some other lower-rent racists), I don’t for a second think that that was represented by the majority of people present or otherwise involved. I remember seeing some kid marching around with a ‘Canada First’ flag, but that’s really the only overt symbolism along those lines I can recall from my time on the line out there. The crowd WAS super white (though not 100% exclusively), but I only saw correlation and not causality in that.

Now, this protest was about a lot more than just vaccine mandates- there was a lot of generalized anti-current-government and anti-Trudeau sentiment. The protest was co-opted by some pretty shitty people, and a lot of pretty shitty people were there and taking leadership roles. I think anyone who was present needs to ask themselves some hard questions about just who they allowed themselves to become associated with and led by the nose by. The backgrounds and views of a lot of the organizers weren’t exactly secret. But I believe that what happened is this became a lightning rod for a more general airing of grievances, and it did get a lot of people caught up who were, at worst, naive and very misguided.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Mar 2022)

Meanwhile, in Victoria: This ‘Freedom Convoy’ protestor’s vehicle got stuck in the mud at Beacon Hill Park

Trying to by-pass an access point is not a good idea when the ground is soft.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Mar 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Meanwhile, in Victoria: This ‘Freedom Convoy’ protestor’s vehicle got stuck in the mud at Beacon Hill Park
> 
> Trying to by-pass an access point is not a good idea when the ground is soft.


Should have painted a 'Z' on the side while it was stuck.......keep them up to speed on current world events.


----------



## brihard (20 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Should have painted a 'Z' on the side while it was stuck.......keep them up to speed on current world events.


Dammit, you already beat me to it.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> While there’s certainly overlap between the white supremacy movement and other hard right elements, including the convoy protests and some of their ideological leadership, (see, for instance the presence and involvement of individuals affiliated with Diagolon, plus some other lower-rent racists), I don’t for a second think that that was represented by the majority of people present or otherwise involved. I remember seeing some kid marching around with a ‘Canada First’ flag, but that’s really the only overt symbolism along those lines I can recall from my time on the line out there. The crowd WAS super white (though not 100% exclusively), but I only saw correlation and not causality in that.
> 
> Now, this protest was about a lot more than just vaccine mandates- there was a lot of generalized anti-current-government and anti-Trudeau sentiment. The protest was co-opted by some pretty shitty people, and a lot of pretty shitty people were there and taking leadership roles. I think anyone who was present needs to ask themselves some hard questions about just who they allowed themselves to become associated with and led by the nose by. The backgrounds and views of a lot of the organizers weren’t exactly secret. But I believe that what happened is this became a lightning rod for a more general airing of grievances, and it did get a lot of people caught up who were, at worst, naive and very misguided.


I absolutely agree with you there. I was just opining that this sounded like a case of a common symbol gets turned into a a different symbol by a couple obscure dicks, which gets picked up by polar opposite dicks as evidence that the common symbol now means you have common cause with the first set of dicks. 😖


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Mar 2022)

The Red Necked freedom fighters continue to besiege Victoria. Fortunately, they provide the occasional cheerful anecdote for we of the 99% (vaxxed):


Rogue freedom-fighter towed from Beacon Hill park mud.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1505293444838699008


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The Red Necked freedom fighters continue to besiege Victoria. Fortunately, they provide the occasional cheerful anecdote for we of the 99% (vaxxed):
> 
> 
> Rogue freedom-fighter towed from Beacon Hill park mud.
> ...


I mean they are just integrating with the other thousand bums that already live in the woods there LOL


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The Red Necked freedom fighters continue to besiege Victoria. Fortunately, they provide the occasional cheerful anecdote for we of the 99% (vaxxed):
> 
> 
> Rogue freedom-fighter towed from Beacon Hill park mud.
> ...


Ukrainian Farmers have an expeditionary force?


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> While there’s certainly overlap between the white supremacy movement and other hard right elements, including the convoy protests and some of their ideological leadership, (see, for instance the presence and involvement of individuals affiliated with Diagolon, plus some other lower-rent racists), I don’t for a second think that that was represented by the majority of people present or otherwise involved. I remember seeing some kid marching around with a ‘Canada First’ flag, but that’s really the only overt symbolism along those lines I can recall from my time on the line out there. The crowd WAS super white (though not 100% exclusively), but I only saw correlation and not causality in that.
> 
> Now, this protest was about a lot more than just vaccine mandates- there was a lot of generalized anti-current-government and anti-Trudeau sentiment. The protest was co-opted by some pretty shitty people, and a lot of pretty shitty people were there and taking leadership roles. I think anyone who was present needs to ask themselves some hard questions about just who they allowed themselves to become associated with and led by the nose by. The backgrounds and views of a lot of the organizers weren’t exactly secret. But I believe that what happened is this became a lightning rod for a more general airing of grievances, and it did get a lot of people caught up who were, at worst, naive and very misguided.



I think you summed it up perfectly.

My takeaway from that goofball MP is how some people, especially politicians, try to use calling someone a nazi as a means to vilify and dehumanize them.


----------



## Furniture (20 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I think you summed it up perfectly.
> 
> My takeaway from that goofball MP is how some people, especially politicians, try to use calling someone a nazi as a means to vilify and dehumanize them.


It's a great way to delegitimize any concerns they have, because "only Nazis care about _____."

Think government lockdowns went too far during COVID? Nazi

Think the vaccine mandates were too much? Nazi

Think the reduction of parliament to a side show during the pandemic was a bad move? Nazi

So now instead of being able to discuss those things directly, you first have to spend time explaining that you're not like the Nazis, you're just a normal person with concerns.  Make a slip of the tongue, or use some "dog whistle" the trolls on 4Chan came up with for laughs though, and it's proof you were a Nazi all along, and only Nazis care about ______


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Mar 2022)

Nailed it....

Jack Knox: Protest patience has run out​ 
They wouldn’t be the first tourists to come for a spring break, fall in love with the place and decide to stay.


By this point, I neither know nor care about whatever excuse the convoy people are using for clogging the roads and making life miserable for the people who live here.

Vaccine mandates, masks, gas prices, they don’t like the way the Island votes, the same ill-defined disaffection that allowed Trump to become president, whatever. Doesn’t matter.

You can protest for or against whatever you want — really, fill your boots — but once you start treating ordinary people as cannon fodder in your class war, or whatever it is, you have lost the plot and revealed who you really are, no matter how much you gaslight them with talk of love, freedom and Woodstock.

Islanders are fed up. We have been through a hard two years, with most of us doing our best to row the boat in the same direction. Go honk somewhere else.









						Jack Knox: Protest patience has run out
					

They wouldn’t be the first tourists to come for a spring break, fall in love with the place and decide to stay.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## FSTO (22 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The Red Necked freedom fighters continue to besiege Victoria. Fortunately, they provide the occasional cheerful anecdote for we of the 99% (vaxxed):
> 
> 
> Rogue freedom-fighter towed from Beacon Hill park mud.
> ...


Is that a welsh flag I see?


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Should have painted a 'Z' on the side while it was stuck.......keep them up to speed on current world events.


... and wait for a Ukrainian tractor owner to help them out ....


----------



## Remius (24 Mar 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-convoy-protest-regrets-1.6394502
		



I suspect we’ll hear about more of these stories.


----------



## Furniture (24 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-convoy-protest-regrets-1.6394502
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure Canadian's should be celebrating the fact that a guy who delivered gas to protestors still has his bank accounts frozen, and is being punished by process... 

Ruining people's lives is not something that should be taken lightly.


----------



## Remius (24 Mar 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm not sure Canadian's should be celebrating the fact that a guy who delivered gas to protestors still has his bank accounts frozen, and is being punished by process...
> 
> Ruining people's lives is not something that should be taken lightly.


Who is celebrating? 

I actually feel sorry for the guy who fell in this.   I think a lot of people were conned into this by bad actors.  I’ve said that before.  

I think we’ll be hearing more stories like this.


----------



## Kickingsauce (24 Mar 2022)

Seeing the government freeze the money of political dissidents is disgusting. Protesting wasn't even 10% of the way to deserving having YOUR bank accounts frozen so that you can't pay bills or buy your children food. My only regret is that I didn't support these people more, but at the time I never expected the government to implement dictatorial measures on protestors. My only prayers now are that the Conservatives won't do this to any liberal protestors when they're in power next. But I fear its too late, a disgusting precedence has been set. We've moved an unbelievable amount towards making any future protest illegal/not worth having in only a year. It's time to have a Libertarian party in charge to blow up the big 3 power hungry parties imo


----------



## Remius (24 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> Seeing the government freeze the money of political dissidents is disgusting. Protesting wasn't even 10% of the way to deserving having YOUR bank accounts frozen so that you can't pay bills or buy your children food. My only regret is that I didn't support these people more, but at the time I never expected the government to implement dictatorial measures on protestors. My only prayers now are that the Conservatives won't do this to any liberal protestors when they're in power next. But I fear its too late, a disgusting precedence has been set. We've moved an unbelievable amount towards making any future protest illegal/not worth having in only a year. It's time to have a Libertarian party in charge to blow up the big 3 power hungry parties imo


Except this protest became unlawful.  Don’t skip that part.   It made itself illegal.  

As for the EA, I agree whole heartedly that it wasn’t required.  But people needed to be arrested and should be prosecuted for their part in what happened.  They don’t get a free pass for their actions if they crossed any lines of the law.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> Seeing the government freeze the money of political dissidents is disgusting. Protesting wasn't even 10% of the way to deserving having YOUR bank accounts frozen so that you can't pay bills or buy your children food. My only regret is that I didn't support these people more, but at the time I never expected the government to implement dictatorial measures on protestors. My only prayers now are that the Conservatives won't do this to any liberal protestors when they're in power next. But I fear its too late, a disgusting precedence has been set. We've moved an unbelievable amount towards making any future protest illegal/not worth having in only a year. It's time to have a Libertarian party in charge to blow up the big 3 power hungry parties imo



I'm no big fan of implementing the Emergency Act to move along a bunch of intransigent civvies.

But, having been on the 'Law Enforcement' side of alot of civil disobedience type operations, I'd prefer that people go home because - if they don't - they can't pay for lunch at a restaurant with their bank card than having to move in with batons and smash their faces in, and get my people injured in the process.


----------



## brihard (24 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> Seeing the government freeze the money of political dissidents is disgusting. Protesting wasn't even 10% of the way to deserving having YOUR bank accounts frozen so that you can't pay bills or buy your children food. My only regret is that I didn't support these people more, but at the time I never expected the government to implement dictatorial measures on protestors. My only prayers now are that the Conservatives won't do this to any liberal protestors when they're in power next. But I fear its too late, a disgusting precedence has been set. We've moved an unbelievable amount towards making any future protest illegal/not worth having in only a year. It's time to have a Libertarian party in charge to blow up the big 3 power hungry parties imo



What’s your reason for claiming the government froze this account? If there was a criminal code restraint order in place, he’d know about it. This was likely done independently by the bank. This was discussed further upthread.


----------



## QV (24 Mar 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm not sure Canadian's should be celebrating the fact that a guy who delivered gas to protestors still has his bank accounts frozen, and is being punished by process... Ruining people's lives is not something that should be taken lightly.



A number of the EU MPs agree with you. They publicly lambasted Trudeau during his recent visit to the EU. I don't think something like this has happened to a Canadian PM in history.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Mar 2022)

> I suspect we’ll hear about more of these stories.



You will.  CBC loves to run schadenfreude stories.


----------



## OceanBonfire (24 Mar 2022)

Really happy for her to find a way to somehow shut those idiots:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/zexi-li-ottawa-mayor-city-builder-award-march-23-council-meeting-1.6394429
		










						Zexi Li receives city builder award
					

Zexi Li, who helped stop the horn-honking in downtown Ottawa during the Freedom Convoy, is honoured at city council.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Mar 2022)

QV said:


> A number of the EU MPs agree with you. They publicly lambasted Trudeau during his recent visit to the EU. I don't think something like this has happened to a Canadian PM in history.


German MEP Christine Andersen not mincing her words…






When you start to drink your own bath water, you look like a hero in the mirror…


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> German MEP Christine Andersen not mincing her words…
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						German court rules far-right AfD party a suspected threat to democracy
					

Domestic intelligence agency can now tap communications and use undercover informants to spy on activities




					www.theguardian.com
				





> A German court has ruled that the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) can be classified as a suspected threat to democracy, paving the way for the domestic intelligence agency to spy on the opposition party.











						AfD politician says Germany should stop atoning for Nazi crimes
					

Björn Höcke sparks fury by calling for tradition to end and labelling Holocaust memorial a ‘monument of shame’




					www.theguardian.com
				





> A politician from the rightwing populist Alternative for Germany (AfD) party has broken with the country’s postwar political consensus by calling for a “180-degree turn” from the tradition of remembering and atoning for the Nazi era.
> 
> In a speech in a beer hall in Dresden, Björn Höcke, who leads the party in the eastern state of Thuringia, railed against Germany’s decade-long tradition of acknowledging the crimes of the National Socialist era, describing the Holocaust memorial in Berlin as a “monument of shame”.











						Christine Anderson - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				







> Christine Margarete Anderson is a German politician who is serving as an Alternative for Germany (AfD) Member of the European Parliament


I don't think Trudeau cares much about what the Nazi sympathizer is saying.

Do you care much about what the Nazi sympathizer is saying?


----------



## brihard (24 Mar 2022)

Multiple additional charges have been sworn against organizers Tamara Lich, Chris Barber, Pat King, and Tyson Billings. Appears the police are continuing to collect and analyze evidence to support further charges. Not surprising, there’s a ton of work to do.









						'Freedom Convoy' leader Pat King facing new charges
					

'Freedom Convoy' leader Pat King is facing several new charges in relation to his alleged role in the occupation of downtown Ottawa.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-convoy-protest-regrets-1.6394502
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Anglehart said he's unable to access his account because it remains frozen. More than 250 accounts linked to people and businesses involved in convoy protests were frozen after the Emergencies Act was invoked.



This guy is clearly a threat to national security. Hopefully the government takes the car he's living in away from him too.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> German court rules far-right AfD party a suspected threat to democracy
> 
> 
> Domestic intelligence agency can now tap communications and use undercover informants to spy on activities
> ...



I don't think Trudeau cares much about what anyone who doesn't share his views is saying.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't think Trudeau cares much about what anyone who doesn't share his views is saying.


Maybe, maybe not. 

But should we care about what a member of the ADF is saying? The party that want to stop looking poorly on Nazi era, and screaming about the  Islamicization of Germany?

If the ADF is criticizing Trudeau, he's probably doing something right. If they are complimenting him, he's doing something very very wrong.


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I don't think Trudeau cares much about what the Nazi sympathizer is saying.



Grammar Panda thinks you forgot to include the word 'alleged' or the phrase 'in my opinion'...




Altair said:


> Do you care much about what the Nazi sympathizer is sayin?



Is an alleged (by your accounts) Nazi sympathizer any worse than an 'on-the-record' Communist Dictator admirer?


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> But should we care about what a member of the ADF is saying?



Why not? 

Lots of other people including civil rights advocates, lawyers, and the like criticized the exact same behavior by Trudeau. Including, as you know, one of the founders of our constitution.

Besides Liberals didn't seem to care much about what Liberal MP Joël Lightbound was saying about his own party, it's a big confirmation bias.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Except this protest became unlawful.  Don’t skip that part.   It made itself illegal.



There was quite a bit of a grey area when it moved from lawful to unlawful. I seem to recall even the police being confused.


----------



## brihard (24 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> There was quite a bit of a grey area when it moved from lawful to unlawful. I seem to recall even the police being confused.


Police at the lower levels were confused about what enforcement would be permitted and supported by management. There was zero confusion that blocking city streets in the manner that they did, and committing mischief throughout downtown, was illegal.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Why not?


I don't listen to groups that openly embrace Islamophobia and want to look at the Nazi era in a less negative light. A party German courts call a open threat to democracy. Its like listening to the KKK. Would you?


Jarnhamar said:


> Lots of other people including civil rights advocates, lawyers, and the like criticized the exact same behavior by Trudeau. Including, as you know, one of the founders of our constitution.


If people want to post what those people say, I don't much care.

I don't give a damn what someone from the ADF has to say.


Jarnhamar said:


> Besides Liberals didn't seem to care much about what Liberal MP Joël Lightbound was saying about his own party, it's a big confirmation bias.


I don't think 1 MP is going to change the direction of the party.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

Worry less about extremists than the moderates who, by their incompetence or arrogance or greed or whatever, create the ponds in which extremists swim.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I don't listen to groups that


Not a very science based approach to examining an argument or point of view. 

Still, you're happy to listen to someone who sexually assaulted a woman, had multiple ethics violations as world leader, weaponizes calling people Nazis to further his own agenda (Putin), openly admires a dictatorship (and appears to hide that countries interference in ours), behaviors (invoking the EA) which shocked intellectuals and rights advocates the world over. 




> I don't think 1 MP is going to change the direction of the party.


An MP for Papineau did.

What were the excuses for not listening to   Lightbound again?


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Worry less about extremists than the moderates who, by their incompetence or arrogance or greed or whatever, create the ponds in which extremists swim.


Very true, but harder to deal with quickly - just because you're draining the stagnant water, or cleaning it up/improving it, doesn't mean you just ignore the mosquitoes still around.  It's the balance that's important, though, where maybe a nuke shouldn't be the first weapon of choice against the mosquitoes?


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not a very science based approach to examining an argument or point of view.


It's very science based.

The closer to extremistism and islamaphobia a party is the less I listen to those in said parties.


Jarnhamar said:


> Still, you're happy to listen to someone who sexually assaulted a woman, had multiple ethics violations as world leader, weaponizes calling people Nazis to further his own agenda (Putin), openly admires a dictatorship (and appears to hide that countries interference in ours), behaviors (invoking the EA) which shocked intellectuals and rights advocates the world over.


Yup.


Jarnhamar said:


> An MP for Papineau did.
> 
> What were the excuses for not listening to   Lightbound again?


Lightbound has his point of view, people can agree with it or not. It appears that others did listen to him respectfully. I don't think he was disparaged or kicked from caucus.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> It's very science based.


One of those 'the science is settled' situations.



Altair said:


> The closer to extremistism and islamaphobia a party is the less I listen to those in said parties.


Islamaphobia specifically or a prejudice against all religions? It seems to me like the LPC is quick to condemn Islamaphobia (rightly so, even though it ridiculously includes simple criticism) but seems a little less inclined to defend Christian beliefs, don't you think?

Besides, why did those EU leaders bring up the protests anyways? It seems like a random thing to throw at the Canadian PM who was talking about aid for Ukraine.



Altair said:


> Lightbound has his point of view, people can agree with it or not. It appears that others did listen to him respectfully. I don't think he was disparaged or kicked from caucus.


I guess it remains to be seen how high he rises now.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> One of those 'the science is settled' situations.


Its settled to me. Dont listen to german nazi sympathizers


Jarnhamar said:


> Islamaphobia specifically or a prejudice against all religions? It seems to me like the LPC is quick to condemn Islamaphobia (rightly so, even though it ridiculously includes simple criticism) but seems a little less inclined to defend Christian beliefs, don't you think?


ADF is Islamaphobic, full stop. So I dont care what their Member of parliament says.


Jarnhamar said:


> Besides, why did those EU leaders bring up the protests anyways? It seems like a random thing to throw at the Canadian PM who was talking about aid for Ukraine.


No leader said anything. MEP are members of parliament. With PR, those on the extreme left and right get into parliament. (A very good argument against PR right here). So no leader brought up the protest, individual Members of the European parliament hailing from extremist parties who think vaccines mandates are capital punishment brought up the protests.

And its nice to see that a particular segment of the media bought it hook line and sinker.


Jarnhamar said:


> I guess it remains to be seen how high he rises now.


Yup.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Mar 2022)

Too bad the Canadian Right have walked into a 'Trudeau Trap'.

Now he looks like a 'decisive wartime leader ', able to make the tough decisions and push people around a bit as needed instead of being ignored.

Thanks Guys, thanks alot....


Canadian media ignores scolding of Trudeau while rest of world reports it​








						Canadian media ignores scolding of Trudeau while rest of world reports it
					

Trudeau was treated to scathing condemnation by several Members of European Parliament (MEP) after giving a speech to the European Union on Wednesday.




					tnc.news


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Too bad the Canadian Right have walked into a 'Trudeau Trap'.
> 
> Now he looks like a 'decisive wartime leader ', able to make the tough decisions and push people around a bit as needed instead of being ignored.
> 
> ...


Legacy media probably decided to ignore those who say covid mandates are akin to the death penalty.

I wish people here wouldnt be siding with those who think covid mandates are akin to the death penalty or people from political parties that think germany is too hard on poor ole Adolf Hitler, but I know that would be asking for too much.


----------



## RangerRay (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> German MEP Christine Andersen not mincing her words…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, I strongly dislike Trudeau as much as the next person…

…but tell me why I should care what the European equivalent to Elizabeth May and Maxime Bernier think. I don’t think most other Europeans care either for that matter.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2022)

RangerRay said:


> So, I strongly dislike Trudeau as much as the next person…
> 
> …but tell me why I should care what the European equivalent to Elizabeth May and Maxime Bernier think. I don’t think most other Europeans care either for that matter.


You don’t have to at all.  

That’s the beauty of being Canadian.  There is no need to think of, or care about what others think of us, it’s only what we think of ourselves, that counts. 👍🏼


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I don't listen to groups that openly embrace Islamophobia and want to look at the Nazi era in a less negative light. A party German courts call a open threat to democracy. Its like listening to the KKK. Would you?
> 
> If people want to post what those people say, I don't much care.
> 
> ...


Ah so you're the kind of person that says everyone affiliated to a political view you don't like is on par with the KKK

That's like a conservative saying everyone affiliated to a political view they don't like is on par with Communists

Both very low IQ beliefs that can be seen from the politically biased on both sides. Top tier cringe, please be more open minded to either sides views rather than going "UHHH THEY LIKE KKK" or "UHHH THEY COMMUNISTS".

Are you calling the 13% of Germans that voted for a right-wing party Nazis? Jesus.

This is coming from someone who has never voted right wing in my life: You're crazy and need to stop calling massive political parties 'extremists'. Be more respectful to all democratic parties and their voting block and stop ripping the seams off of Western Democracy for your own political biases that many of us couldn't give less of a care about.

I request that you stop calling Western political parties 'the KKK' or whatnot due to your political biases in an attempt to stifle debate.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> Ah so you're the kind of person that says everyone affiliated to a political view you don't like is on par with the KKK
> 
> That's like a conservative saying everyone affiliated to a political view they don't like is on par with Communists
> 
> ...


I believe he said the ADF is on par with the KKK.   It’s an extreme right wing party.  Something Germany still has and is contending with. 

He also didn’t say that 13% of Germans who voted for right wing parties were Nazis. 

There are extremes on both sides of the spectrum. Some of them have political wings to achieve their aims.  There is nothing wrong with calling them out. 

Go read up on them.  From I’ve seen they are pro Russia, and very much historical revisionists that want to return to Germany in the 30s and 40s as far as nationalism is concerned.

Not sure I would want champion this group even if they criticize Trudeau.   Bad trade.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You don’t have to at all.
> 
> That’s the beauty of being Canadian.  *There is no need to think of, or care about what others think of us, it’s only what we think of ourselves, that counts.* 👍🏼



So, just like our southern neighbours neighbors.


----------



## mariomike (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Go read up on them.  From I’ve seen they are pro Russia, and very much historical revisionists that want to return to Germany in the 30s and 40s as far as nationalism is concerned.
> 
> Not sure I would want champion this group even if they criticize Trudeau.   Bad trade.



I don't follow German party politics. I did read up on "them". Just want to confirm if "Alternative for Germany" is the party being referred to?

If so, they do not seem particularly sensitive to the memories of victims of the Holocaust.









						Alternative for Germany - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




If not, sorry for the misunderstanding.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> I don't follow German party politics. I did read up on "them". Just want to confirm if "Alternative for Germany" is the party being referred to?
> 
> If so, they do not seem particularly sensitive to the memories of victims of the Holocaust.
> 
> ...


I believe that is the party in question.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> So, just like our southern neighbours neighbors.


Actually, since they want to see their currency remain the de facto world trade standard, they actually do assess what others think of them, such as it affects their hegemonic and economic power.

For Canada, ‘hegemony’ and ‘economic influencer’ aren’t words/phrases that in any way affect how good our own bath water tastes to us.  

We THINK we’re awesome, so we ARE awesome!


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> I don't follow German party politics. I did read up on "them". Just want to confirm if "Alternative for Germany" is the party being referred to?
> 
> If so, they do not seem particularly sensitive to the memories of victims of the Holocaust.
> 
> ...


No, thats them.

Vaccines are murder, Hitler wasnt that bad, muslims will kill german culture, those folks said mean words to Trudeau.

And certain...segments, of the canadian media ecosystem ate it up that those from parties that think Adolf Hitler got a bad rap spoke up against Trudeau thus the whole European parliament must be in lockstep. What those media sites fail to consider is that with PR every extremist viewpoint gets to be represented in the european parliament and out of 705 members of the european these (insert banable descriptive words here) make up 64 from across all countries, 9 AFD members from Germany.

If Canada had PR the greens would likely have a half dozen MPs as well, that would not make Elizabeth may the consensus voice of the HoC.

But no. Instead we have people here defending the AFD, again, people who openly hate muslims, and defend Adolf Hitler, all because they spoke ill of Trudeau.

Enemy of my enemy is my friend? I guess that leads one to side with muslim hating, Adolf Hitler apologists every now and again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Its settled to me. Dont listen to german nazi sympathizers


Are they legit nazi sympathizers? What did they say exactly?  Genuinely curious here. 



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> ADF is Islamaphobic, full stop. So I dont care what their Member of parliament says.


I've heard that word thrown around often, especially by the LPC. I'd have to see the context to make an informed decision. 



			
				ALTAIR said:
			
		

> No leader said anything. MEP are members of parliament.



Elected members of a Parliament aren't leaders? Let's say I'm wrong with my terminology, they're still elected members of a Parliament. 

Significant enough I'd think. 

But why did they even bring it up when the topic was aid for Ukraine? 

Because of Trudeaus ego. 

He sees a fellow actor turn politician being hailed as a hero and icon of freedom and bravery and he wants some of that pie. He tries to inject his own experience dealing with terrifying violent extremists for some street cred. 

It backfired and he got called out.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

AfD isn't the only source of politicians critical of Trudeau.  So far none of the strong critics I've read is admirable.  But focusing on the AfD critic to play guilt-by-association is taking the chickensh!t way out.  Trudeau also drew enough muted criticism from moderates to suggest he overreacted, in the judgement of his peers other than Canadian opposition parties.

Again, more AfD - or more Trump, or more Freedom Convoy, or more Jan 06 - is the kind of thing you get when the moderates start believing they can pick and choose between constituents they want to support, and constituents they want to marginalize, ridicule, alienate, and persecute.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Worry less about extremists than the moderates who, by their incompetence or arrogance or greed or whatever, create the ponds in which extremists swim.


The guerilla is the fish and the people are their sea. Chairman Mao.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Now he looks like a 'decisive wartime leader ', a
> 
> 
> ​


really? Could have fooled me!!!


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> No, thats them.
> 
> Vaccines are murder, Hitler wasnt that bad, muslims will kill german culture, those folks said mean words to Trudeau.
> 
> ...


Again, calling the 15% of Germans part of the AFD party borderline Nazis just to distract from valid points made against Trudeau isn't the way to play politics. Republicans say that Democrats hate white people. Democrats say that Republicans hate non-white people. It's all stupid shit to distract from whatever point was made that is entirely unrelated to these things. Grow up and be a better non-politically biased citizen. Listen to comments for the points made, rather than reverting back to your unconnected hatred towards their overall beliefs in an attempt to save your own beliefs. At least pretend you have a high enough IQ to not revert to such childish antics. Come on man.

I hate big government Authoritarians like the AFD. It doesn't mean that them calling out Authoritarian behavior should be ignored because its "my sides authoritarianism so its okay". It makes them hypocrites, yes. But it doesn't mean they're wrong about what they're saying.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Are they legit nazi sympathizers? What did they say exactly?  Genuinely curious here.











						German far right AfD chief accused of echoing Hitler
					

German historians Wednesday accused far-right leader Alexander Gauland of paraphrasing Adolf Hitler in a newspaper column taking aim at a "globalised class" that he claimed threatens all that is good…




					www.france24.com
				






> German historians Wednesday accused far-right leader Alexander Gauland of paraphrasing Adolf Hitler in a newspaper column taking aim at a "globalised class" that he claimed threatens all that is good in his "homeland".











						Has the AfD's Nazi rhetoric doomed it to electoral oblivion?
					

After a massive win in the 2017 elections, the far-right party is little more than a footnote this time around.




					www.euronews.com
				





> When the far-right Alternative for Deutschland’s (AfD) Björn Höcke referred to Berlin’s Holocaust memorial as a “memorial of shame” during a speech in Dresden in 2017, the former history teacher and state legislator was almost kicked out of his party.
> 
> But despite the fact that two-thirds of the AfD supported Höcke being expelled a 2018 tribunal ruled that he could remain







Jarnhamar said:


> I've heard that word thrown around often, especially by the LPC. I'd have to see the context to make an informed decision.











						Far-right AfD says Islam not welcome in Germany
					

Religion not compatible with constitution, says anti-immigration party, which also proposes banning minarets and burqas.




					www.aljazeera.com
				






> Members of the far-right party Alternative for Germany (AfD) have backed an election manifesto that says Islam is not compatible with the constitution.











						Islam not compatible with German constitution, says AfD party
					

The anti-immigration Alternative for Germany (AfD) said on Sunday Islam is not compatible with the German constitution and vowed to press for bans on minarets and burqas at its party congress in two weeks' time.




					www.reuters.com
				





> The anti-immigration Alternative for Germany (AfD) said on Sunday Islam is not compatible with the German constitution and vowed to press for bans on minarets and burqas at its party congress in two weeks’ time.











						German election: Merkel vows to win back right-wing voters
					

The German chancellor is set for a fourth term despite losing a million votes to nationalists.



					www.bbc.com
				






> Its election campaign posters carried messages such as "Stop Islamisation. Vote AFD" alongside images of women wearing burkas, and "Burkas? We like bikinis".





Jarnhamar said:


> Elected members of a Parliament aren't leaders? Let's say I'm wrong with my terminology, they're still elected members of a Parliament.


They are elected members of parliament, however they are on the fringe. Making up less than 10 percent across all countries in a system that uses PR


Jarnhamar said:


> Significant enough I'd think.
> 
> But why did they even bring it up when the topic was aid for Ukraine?
> 
> Because of Trudeaus ego.


They also went after Macron saying that vaccine mandates were Capital punishment. Was it his ego as well?


Jarnhamar said:


> He sees a fellow actor turn politician being hailed as a hero and icon of freedom and bravery and he wants some of that pie. He tries to inject his own experience dealing with terrifying violent extremists for some street cred.
> 
> It backfired and he got called out.


He got called out by those who think vaccine mandates are capital punishment, that Islam is not German or European, and that the holocaust memorial is a monument of shame. 

Its as if Trudeau got called out by a member of the KKK. Would we care in that context? No. In Europe, the KKK could be elected to parliament. Should we care what they say? No. 

Again, the fact that I am needing to say that it's not a good idea to be seriously considering the words of a member of AFD is honestly depressing.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> Again, calling the 15% of Germans part of the AFD party borderline Nazis just to distract from valid points made against Trudeau isn't the way to play politics. Republicans say that Democrats hate white people. Democrats say that Republicans hate non-white people. It's all stupid shit to distract from whatever point was made that is entirely unrelated to these things. Grow up and be a better non-politically biased citizen. Listen to comments for the points made, rather than reverting back to your unconnected hatred towards their overall beliefs in an attempt to save your own beliefs. At least pretend you have a high enough IQ to not revert to such childish antics. Come on man.


Please, lets start posting what the KKK are saying about political leaders. What does the grand wizard of the KKK think about the convoy?


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> AfD isn't the only source of politicians critical of Trudeau.


Then post those.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Again, using and showcasing someone from the ADF criticizing Trudeau just because they are and it’s Trudeau is a bad trade off.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

I prefer to let you pretend no such thing exists.


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Please, lets start posting what the KKK are saying about political leaders. What does the grand wizard of the KKK think about the convoy?


AFD =/ KKK

Unless you're claiming that 15% of Germany voted for the values of the KKK? What about the next party to the right that supports the large majority of their points? Are 25% of Germans 'mostly Nazi policy supporters'? What about all conservative parties? Are the majority of Germans 'kinda Nazis'?

Please stop side stepping to defend your support for Authoritarianism. The AFD sucks. Trudeaus crackdown of political dissidents sucked. I even voted for Trudeau the first time around too. Saying the other side is Fascist does not change the fact that your side is too. They BOTH are. Welcome to politics lmao


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

I can just picture the 1940s Communist version of you going "Those Nazi authoritarians called us Communist authoritarians! But they're NAZIS so their point is wrong!"

Except in this case of course they literally aren't Nazis. So you look double dumb for doubling up on this haha


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> AFD =/ KKK


Its true. One hates muslims. The other hates blacks. They both hate jews. But they are not the same. 


Kickingsauce said:


> Unless you're claiming that 15% of Germany voted for the values of the KKK?


15 percent of Germans voted for a party that says openly that Muslims are not Germans, that Islam is incompatible with the German constitution and that the Holocaust memorial is a shameful. Not the holocaust itself, but the fact they have a memorial. The country that caused the holocaust. That country. 


Kickingsauce said:


> Please stop side stepping to defend your support for Authoritarianism. The AFD sucks. Trudeaus crackdown of political dissidents sucked. I even voted for Trudeau the first time around too.


Damn right they do. So why people care about what a member of the AfD says is mind boggling. If more mainstream members of the MEP trash talked Trudeau after his speech, post those. Except people can't, because it didn't happen. 

So the enemy of my enemy is my friend, even when they are a nazi sympathizing, muslim hating, threat to democracy party member.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> I can just picture the 1940s Communist version of you going "Those Nazi authoritarians called us Communist authoritarians! But they're NAZIS so their point is wrong!"
> 
> Except in this case of course they literally aren't Nazis. So you look double dumb for doubling up on this haha


Yes yes, the AFD cannot be that bad, they said bad things about Trudeau. I don't like Trudeau, so they must be on to something. 

Yes yes.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

10 posts, 40 percent of them defending AfD as a legitimate viewpoint. If this is what I have to look forward to in new recruits to the CAF....


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> So the enemy of my enemy is my friend, even when they are a nazi sympathizing, muslim hating, threat to democracy party member.


No. The AFD sucks. Trudeaus crackdown sucked. Why is this so hard to understand that both sides get rid of your rights? Stop being politically biased in your attempt to let one political side of authoritarianism flourish so you can call out the other sides, but not vice versa. Get your political biases out of your head and learn to hate all types of authoritarianism.

Your narrow beliefs to see beyond party lines are what keeps us squabbling and oppressing each other


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> 10 posts, 40 percent of them defending AfD as a legitimate viewpoint. If this is what I have to look forward to in new recruits to the CAF....


I'm here to defend liberty for all. My fiancée is a half Arabian that escaped Saudi Arabia (removed per request). You seem to be here to only defend liberty for one political thinking. I'd hate to see you enforcing laws. Be a better citizen and take your politically biased extremist views elsewhere.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> No. The AFD sucks.


So stop posting about what a AFD member of parliament is going on about. 

If there are other sources people want to use, intellectuals, politicians from non Islamophobic parties, then I'm all for it. I discussed the EA with others here before, and did not once shoot down what those people were saying. 

I'm just saying nobody should give AfD and those associated with them the light of day. We should not care what they say about any damn thing.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> I'm here to defend liberty for all. My fiancée is a half Arabian that escaped Saudi Arabia you ignorant shitstain. You seem to be here to only defend liberty for one political thinking. I'd hate to see you enforcing laws. Be a better citizen and take your extremist views elsewhere.


To believe that I got banned for posting Russian flags.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> Your narrow low IQ beliefs


Really?  Is that necessary?


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> I'm here to defend liberty for all. My fiancée is a half Arabian that escaped Saudi Arabia you ignorant shitstain. You seem to be here to only defend liberty for one political thinking. I'd hate to see you enforcing laws. Be a better citizen and take your politically biased extremist views elsewhere.


Again, is that sort of language necessary?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> that Islam is incompatible with the German constitution


Maybe they mean the part about women being second-class citizens,....if allowed to be citizens at all.    I can say Catholicism is incompatible with the Canadian Charter of Rights if I chose,.....the part about sex for fun and abortions.   Am I your enemy??

I'm not defending or accusing any party/people here, I don't follow anything European, but statements like you made are easy to shred.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

> 15 percent of Germans voted for a party that says openly that Muslims are not Germans, that Islam is incompatible with the German constitution and that the Holocaust memorial is a shameful. Not the holocaust itself, but the fact they have a memorial. The country that caused the holocaust. That country.



It's always a mistake to assume that people who voted for a party necessarily agree with all of its deplorable positions.  (Should be obvious from the number of times voting-for-least-objectionable surfaces in discussions on this site.)  "Germany for Germans" might be all that motivates many of them; that would of course align them with anti-Islamic planks but not necessarily with a Holocaust denial plank.

It's important to be careful about understanding exactly what is going on given the numbers of people supporting that party.  A problem can't be fixed by those who don't understand it.


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Really?  Is that necessary?


No, you're right. People defending the oppression of others gets me rather heated. I'll edit it, thank you.

However the latter one I'll leave up since he's insinuated I support a Fascist AFD despite every other comment being the opposite. That one he deserves.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Again, is that sort of language necessary?


I mean, he's using it against a lefty so I doubt it raises an eyebrow.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

Kickingsauce said:


> I'm here to defend liberty for all. My fiancée is a half Arabian that escaped Saudi Arabia you ignorant shitstain. You seem to be here to only defend liberty for one political thinking. I'd hate to see you enforcing laws. Be a better citizen and take your politically biased extremist views elsewhere.


Kickingsause........you're new, we don't debate like that here.   Debate, don't name call....   

 "Profanity is the inability of a feeble mind to fully express itself."
Bruce
Army.ca Staff


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's always a mistake to assume that people who voted for a party necessarily agree with all of its deplorable positions.  (Should be obvious from the number of times voting-for-least-objectionable surfaces in discussions on this site.)  "Germany for Germans" might be all that motivates many of them; that would of course align them with anti-Islamic planks but not necessarily with a Holocaust denial plank.
> 
> It's important to be careful about understanding exactly what is going on given the numbers of people supporting that party.  A problem can't be fixed by those who don't understand it.


Did I at any point say that those germans shared every single belief of the AFD? I simply said that people voted for a party that is openly Islamophobic and doesn't think the Holocaust was that big a deal. 

Why they voted that way is up for the debate, but the AFD pretty open about what they are about.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I mean, he's using it against a lefty so I doubt it raises an eyebrow.


Really???      That ice you're on is getting thinner.


----------



## Kickingsauce (25 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Kickingsause........you're new, we don't debate like that here.   Debate, don't name call....
> 
> "Profanity is the inability of a feeble mind to fully express itself."
> Bruce
> Army.ca Staff


You're right. I take offence to being called a Nazi supporter when I'm a strict Libertarian with a half Arab fiancée. The same type of person that the AFD hates. Boils my blood, but I should refrain from profanities, thank you. Also love that quote, so another reason to listen to it haha!


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Really???      That ice you're on is getting thinner.


I can point, and have pointed to many a post that are not to snuff with the rules posted here.









						How to engage in political discourse on Army.ca
					

Folks,  BLUF/TL;DR: All old threads are locked. Rules of conduct will be strictly enforced. Repeat offenders of any stripe will be barred from the Political forums.  You may notice that all existing threads in the Canadian Politics and Global Politics boards are now locked. After review with the...




					army.ca
				




Not many are taken down, so I have come to my own conclusions as to why that may be.

If talking about that is a bannable offense, let me know.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I can point, and have pointed to many a post that are not to snuff with the rules posted here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course you have.........


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Of course you have.........


I could point to those posts and me calling out those posts if you like, but I feel like doing so may be constituted as trolling, yes?


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Did I at any point say that those germans shared every single belief of the AFD? I simply said that people voted for a party that is openly Islamophobic and doesn't think the Holocaust was that big a deal.
> 
> Why they voted that way is up for the debate, but the AFD pretty open about what they are about.


Actually, you called them Nazi sympathizers, which is a bombastically categorical gaslight…but your beloved leader is an extremely skilled gaslighter, so your admiration clearly fogs your ability to balance gaslighting others with admiration of communist dictatorship…but keep doing you (within the confines of the Site Guidelines, of course).


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Actually, you called them Nazi sympathizers, which is a bombastically categorical gaslight…but your beloved leader is an extremely skilled gaslighter, so your admiration clearly fogs your ability to balance gaslighting others with admiration of communist dictatorship…but keep doing you (within the confines of the Site Guidelines, of course).
> 
> View attachment 69703


I called members of the AfD nazi sympathizers, not the German voting public. Unless I'm missing something. Can you please pull up where I said that the German voters who voted AfD are nazi sympathizers?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

NO HE CAN'T!    This thread has a topic and it's not Altair's Protest.

Anyone have anything about the actual "Freedom" convoy, or it's aftermath, to add???


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Mar 2022)

Can we split the bun fight into a separate thread in the Politics forum??


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> Can we split the bun fight into a separate thread in the Politics forum??


A bunfight in this thread???? You'll have to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more specific.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

This thread is probably a good enough place to have the bun fight.  The whole protest and its aftermath are basically a bun fight.  People angry about something who protested, versus people who couldn't stand the sight of them protesting and, like Argus Filch, want to see some punishment.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> German far right AfD chief accused of echoing Hitler
> 
> 
> German historians Wednesday accused far-right leader Alexander Gauland of paraphrasing Adolf Hitler in a newspaper column taking aim at a "globalised class" that he claimed threatens all that is good…
> ...


The Prime Minister sounded like he was paraphrasing Hitler when he was talking about the Freedom Convoy and Canadians with wrong opinions, and should they be tolerated or not etc.. But yes I agree those AdF sound like idiots.



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> The anti-immigration Alternative for Germany (AfD) said on Sunday Islam is not compatible with the German constitution and vowed to press for bans on minarets and burqas at its party congress in two weeks’ time.



The Anti-immigration party. That sounds like the political party you voted for in the last two elections doesn't it? What's the difference between you voting for a party who views themselves as anti-immigration and a German voting for an anti-immigration party?



Altair said:


> They are elected members of parliament, however they are on the fringe. Making up less than 10 percent across all countries in a system that uses PR


Sure. They're still members of parliament for the EU, where Trudeau was giving his_ do as I say not as I do_ speech.



Altair said:


> They also went after Macron saying that vaccine mandates were Capital punishment. Was it his ego as well?


Did Macron try to brag and attempt to pat himself on the back for invoking some kind of highly debated and questionable Emergency Act in France?



Altair said:


> He got called out by those who think vaccine mandates are capital punishment, that Islam is not German or European, and that the holocaust memorial is a monument of shame.


Those are some pretty dumb views.



Altair said:


> Its as if Trudeau got called out by a member of the KKK. Would we care in that context? No.





Altair said:


> Again, the fact that I am needing to say that it's not a good idea to be seriously considering the words of a member of AFD is honestly depressing.


It's not scientific to dismiss something simply based on who the author is. You're obviously inclined to pick and choose who you feel is worth listening to, of course.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> 10 posts, 40 percent of them defending AfD as a legitimate viewpoint. If this is what I have to look forward to in new recruits to the CAF....


We shouldn't tolerate people with wrong opinions in Canada.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The Prime Minister sounded like he was paraphrasing Hitler when he was talking about the Freedom Convoy and Canadians with wrong opinions, and should they be tolerated or not etc.. But yes I agree those AdF sound like idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would like to respond but out of respect for @Bruce Monkhouse, post #4212 ,  I will refrain from making any post not  directly related to the Freedom convoy and its aftermath.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Anyways…the ADF MEP would be like Randy Hillier calling out the PM of New Zealand over her COVID mandates and lockdowns after she spoke to the Ontario legislature.  

It’s a nothing burger but some people will cling to it to legitimize their own opinions on it. 

3 fringe MEPs coming out and making statements is not “European leaders scold Trudeau over EA”. 

This is why this isn’t that much I terms of news but it makes haters happy.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I would like to respond but out of respect for @Bruce Monkhouse, post #4212 ,  I will refrain from making any post not  directly related to the Freedom convoy and its aftermath.


I'd like to think that discussing the Prime Minister trying to score political points on the back of the Freedom Convoy on the world stage is relatable but we can definitely bring it back to an in Canada discussion.  

I look forward to hearing how supporting an anti-immigration party is different when you do it; the Liberal thread perhaps?


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

> We shouldn't tolerate people with wrong opinions in Canada.



Moreover, we shouldn't tolerate anyone who is intolerant of anything.


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Moreover, we shouldn't tolerate anyone who is intolerant of anything.


Why? Society is inherently intolerant of things that are outlined in our laws as illegal, which is where we have things like limitations on speech and actions. Social norms may differ, and sometimes people won't be tolerated for doing legal but greasy things, while some technical illegal things (jaywalking) get a pass.

Everyone is intolerant of something.  🤷‍♂️ 

For me, it's educational hobo clowns. Not sure who thought that nightmare fuel would help kids learn French.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Why? Society is inherently intolerant of things that are outlined in our laws as illegal, which is where we have things like limitations on speech and actions. Social norms may differ, and sometimes people won't be tolerated for doing legal but greasy things, while some technical illegal things (jaywalking) get a pass.
> 
> Everyone is intolerant of something.  🤷‍♂️
> 
> For me, it's educational hobo clowns. Not sure who thought that nightmare fuel would help kids learn French.


Ah Sol…


----------



## Weinie (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Moreover, we shouldn't tolerate anyone who is intolerant of anything.


And the Dutch

austin powers father and the Dutch - Bing video


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Anyways…the ADF MEP would be like Randy Hillier calling out the PM of New Zealand over her COVID mandates and lockdowns after she spoke to the Ontario legislature.
> 
> It’s a nothing burger but some people will cling to it to legitimize their own opinions on it.
> 
> ...



That's a bit disingenuous.  The PM was openly called out by duly elected officials and his speech was barely attended. 

None of that was reported on by our legacy media.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Anyways…the ADF MEP would be like Randy Hillier calling out the PM of New Zealand over her COVID mandates and lockdowns after she spoke to the Ontario legislature.
> 
> It’s a nothing burger but some people will cling to it to legitimize their own opinions on it.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said in this post.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That's a bit disingenuous.  The PM was openly called out by duly elected officials and his speech was barely attended.
> 
> None of that was reported on by our legacy media.


What’s disingenuous about it?  Duly elected does not mean relevant.  And it’s the EU asssembly.  Can you name a single elected official from there?  I never even heard of ADF until someone mentioned it here.  I also heard about it on legacy media radio yesterday.  

Oh and the CBC right here:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/european-members-parliament-attact-trudeau-1.6397579

Anti mask, anti vacc pro russian party member with right wing ideology criticizes Trudeau?  That isn’t news. Seems pretty normal.

3 fringe MEPs the rest gave him a standing ovation.  His speech was nothing event as was the response.  In short who cares.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Anti mask, anti vacc pro russian party member with right wing ideology criticizes Trudeau?  That isn’t news. Seems pretty normal.


Do you think referencing the freedom convoy in his speech where he's telling European nations they need to do more was out of place?


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Do you think referencing the freedom convoy in his speech where he's telling European nations they need to do more was out of place?


I think his speech was as irrelevant as the response.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I think his speech was as irrelevant as the response.



That's the whole point.  He was so irrelevant that barely anyone wanted to hear what our representative had to say.  

And he Infact faced open hostility.  You can wave your hand because of political ideology.  Disregard at your own risk.

I'm glad you found that article because I've seen just about nothing on it.

This should be a wake up call to Canadians about how little were regarded.  Sadly it's still hockey season.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That's the whole point.  He was so irrelevant that barely anyone wanted to hear what our representative had to say.
> 
> And he Infact faced open hostility.  You can wave your hand because of political ideology.  Disregard at your own risk.
> 
> ...


CTV, Globe and mail, CBC are all reporting it.  

CTV has it as a Top Video

It’s the EU.  They disregard everyone.  A good chunk of the MEPs don’t even want their own countries in the EU.  They don’t get elected in their own countries but they can get elected there because of that system. 

The Brits figured it out.


----------



## mariomike (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> 3 fringe MEPs the rest gave him a standing ovation.



Saw that on the video.



> Most of the European Parliament members in attendance for Trudeau's speech in Brussels, the Belgian capital, were seen giving the prime minister a standing ovation. The assembly's public galleries were full for the speech.




Who are the MEPs who accused Trudeau of being a dictator?​


> Mislav Kolakušić, whose speech in the assembly went viral on his Twitter feed, is a failed Croatian presidential candidate and is not affiliated with any political party in the European Parliament. He has aligned himself with anti-vaccine voices inside and outside of the assembly.
> Reuters reported earlier this year that Kolakušić had accused French President Emmanuel Macron of "murdering citizens" through vaccine mandates and that he claimed "tens of thousands of" Europeans had died from vaccine side-effects during the pandemic.
> Reuters said Europe's drug regulator pushed back against that claim, describing it as "incorrect" and a "misrepresentation of data."
> Kolakušić was also one of six MEPs censured by the European Parliament for refusing to present an EU Digital COVID certificate to enter the assembly. Anderson was another of the MPs punished in that incident.
> ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> CTV, Globe and mail, CBC are all reporting it.
> 
> CTV has it as a Top Video
> 
> ...



I haven't seen much about the hostility and poor attendance.  But I don't spend all day cruising news sites.  French is an SOB to learn. 

So now the European Parliament is a whole bunch of who cares ?


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I think his speech was as irrelevant as the response.


A response worthy of the speech. I like it.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I haven't seen much about the hostility and poor attendance.  But I don't spend all day cruising news sites.  French is an SOB to learn.
> 
> So now the European Parliament is a whole bunch of who cares ?



This seems pretty accurate:


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I haven't seen much about the hostility and poor attendance.  But I don't spend all day cruising news sites.  French is an SOB to learn.
> 
> So now the European Parliament is a whole bunch of who cares ?


That’s fine.

The accusation in the thread was that Trudeau was scolded and the Canadian Legacy Media ignored it.  Demonstrably false.  If people don’t look for it that’s fine but then they shouldn’t say the media is ignoring when it isn’t. 

Trudeau spoke to Zelenski the night before he addressed the EU parliament.  I think it’s quite possible Zelenski pressed Trudeau to tell the EU to do more.  Just like he’s telling all his allies to do the the same.   Plenty of EU counties are still doing business with Russia.  Plenty could do more sanctions.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> That’s fine.
> 
> The accusation in the thread was that Trudeau was scolded and the Canadian Legacy Media ignored it.  Demonstrably false.  If people don’t look for it that’s fine but then they shouldn’t say the media is ignoring when it isn’t.
> 
> Trudeau spoke to Zelenski the night before he addressed the EU parliament.  I think it’s quite possible Zelenski pressed Trudeau to tell the EU to do more.  Just like he’s telling all his allies to do the the same.   Plenty of EU counties are still doing business with Russia.  Plenty could do more sanctions.



You missed my question.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Why Justin Trudeau being criticized by three far-right European politicians proves Canada's international reputation is in tatters
					

Remember when Canada was respected? Before Justin Trudeau took a woke hammer and shattered the glass of our international reputation?




					www.thebeaverton.com
				






> Want proof? Look no further than our glorious leader’s visit to the European Parliament. You would think he would be hailed as a hero by a gathering of liberal Europeans. They would hold him over their shoulders and celebrate him as the boy-king feminist champion he claims he is in my dreams. But instead THREE different European politicians (who all happen to be hard right ideologues who think COVID is a deep state conspiracy) called him out for his B.S. About time.
> 
> Whether it was the Croatian MEP who said COVID vaccines were the same as capital punishment criticizing Trudeau for his handling of the Freedom Convoy protests, the Romanian MEP who filed a human rights complaint over measures designed to keep people safe in a pandemic calling out Justin’s approach to vaccine mandates, or the German MEP who is a member of an extremist party that Germany considers a threat to democracy saying Trudeau is a threat to democracy, all three made the point very clear: Canada is no longer well-regarded on the world stage.
> 
> ...


Satire in response to the response of the freedom convoy MEPs, in  accordance to @Bruce Monkhouse , post #4212


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You missed my question.


I thought it was rhetorical because I didn’t say that.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> CTV, Globe and mail, CBC are all reporting it.
> 
> CTV has it as a Top Video
> 
> ...





Remius said:


> I thought it was rhetorical because I didn’t say that.



Not sure how else to take your initial quote.


----------



## mariomike (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Why Justin Trudeau being criticized by three far-right European politicians proves Canada's international reputation is in tatters
> 
> 
> Remember when Canada was respected? Before Justin Trudeau took a woke hammer and shattered the glass of our international reputation?
> ...



Love The Beaverton. 🤣


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> Love The Beaverton. 🤣


Satire is an amazing way to get a point across.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

That the MEPs don’t care about Canada?  It’s Eurocentric with a good number of MEPs actually trying to leave the EU, they are all essentially independants.  They can do what they want.

I certainly could care less about the EU parliament, and what 3 fringe MEPs think one way or another.  I doubt most Canadians care either.  These are not the people we need to care about.  World leaders, their senior officials etc sure.  MEPs at the assembly?  Yawn. 

I honestly don’t care that Trudeau spoke to the EU parliament.  It was just a speech.  With nothing behind it other than words.  Probably like the last pile of leaders who’ve adressed the EU.   It gets old I would imagine for most sitting members. 

If the head of the EU assembly snubbed trudeau that might be more worrying.  But that didn’t happen.


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> Love The Beaverton. 🤣


That satirical article captures it perfectly.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Satire is an amazing way to get a point across.





Remius said:


> That satirical article captures it perfectly.



You guys know how satire works, right? 😆


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You guys know how satire works, right? 😆



Oh yeah


----------



## Weinie (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You guys know how satire works, right? 😆


Now you're just being satirical.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> Now you're just being satirical.


Satirically-satirical, to be precise. 😉


----------



## Weinie (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Satirically-satirical, to be precise. 😉


Right back at ya.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> You guys know how satire works, right? 😆



Man you read my mind lol


----------



## Remius (25 Mar 2022)

Just shows you how ridiculous the whole thing is and people getting bent out of shape over nothing.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Just shows you how ridiculous the whole thing is and people getting bent out of shape over nothing.



I suppose that's one point of view.


----------



## mariomike (25 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Just shows you how ridiculous the whole thing is and people getting bent out of shape over nothing.





> ^ This.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Just shows you how ridiculous the whole thing is and people getting bent out of shape over nothing.



When you say people getting bent out of shape do you mean the people laughing about it (Trudeau getting blasted) or people bent out of shape for Trudeau getting laughed at by EU parliament members?


----------



## Edward Campbell (26 Mar 2022)

The Trudeau EP speech in and of itself, was stupid but harmless, but it points to what I suspect is a more serious underlying problem: policy competence or maybe it's policy incompetence. Someone in the PMO thought that giving that speech was a good idea; someone in the PMO wrote that speech for him. Both were bad ideas, badly planned and badly executed. If the PMO's judgment is that bad on relative "small stuff" like that then where is it on the "big stuff" like the economy and the consequences of the Supply and Confidence Agreement?


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Mar 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> ... where is it on the "big stuff" like the economy and the consequences of the Supply and Confidence Agreement coalition agreement that dare not speak its name (or give NDP any cabinet seats)?


FTFY


----------



## mariomike (26 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> When you say people getting bent out of shape do you mean the people laughing about it (Trudeau getting blasted) or people bent out of shape for Trudeau getting laughed at by EU parliament members?



If it were me you asked, I would answer that question with a question.

Who suffers angst aka "bent out of shape" over PMJT winning election, after election, after election...?



> Trudeau getting laughed at by EU parliament members?





> Most of the European Parliament members in attendance for Trudeau's speech in Brussels, the Belgian capital, were seen giving the prime minister a standing ovation. The assembly's public galleries were full for the speech.



I would guess any Canadian politician, who ever hopes to become PM, would distance themselves from "Alternative for Germany".

QUOTE
Who are the MEPs who accused Trudeau of being a dictator?​Mislav Kolakušić, whose speech in the assembly went viral on his Twitter feed, is a failed Croatian presidential candidate and is not affiliated with any political party in the European Parliament. He has aligned himself with anti-vaccine voices inside and outside of the assembly.
Reuters reported earlier this year that Kolakušić had accused French President Emmanuel Macron of "murdering citizens" through vaccine mandates and that he claimed "tens of thousands of" Europeans had died from vaccine side-effects during the pandemic.
Reuters said Europe's drug regulator pushed back against that claim, describing it as "incorrect" and a "misrepresentation of data."
Kolakušić was also one of six MEPs censured by the European Parliament for refusing to present an EU Digital COVID certificate to enter the assembly. Anderson was another of the MPs punished in that incident.
Both Anderson and Zimniok are members of the political party Alternative for Germany, described by the BBC as a far-right political party that employs rhetoric "tinged with Nazi overtones."
A German court ruled recently that the party is "a suspected threat to democracy" after an administrative court in Cologne found that there are "sufficient indications of anti-constitutional goals within the AfD."

END QUOTE

As far as the Freedom rally goes, far-sighted politicians looking ahead to late 2025 may wish to distance themselves from it, as well.

If one of the hopes of the Freedom rally was to win over the South-Asian community to Team Blue, that seems to have failed miserably.
From what I read, South-Asian truckers are not interested in playing vaccine politics.
They want what most working people want: better wages and benefits. Like dental care.


----------



## Altair (26 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> If it were me you asked, I would answer that question with a question.
> 
> Who suffers angst aka "bent out of shape" over PMJT winning election, after election, after election...?
> 
> ...


I think the PP faction of the party is perfectly content being a regional protest party.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2022)

mariomike said:


> If it were me you asked, I would answer that question with a question.


A true Socrate. 



> Who suffers angst aka "bent out of shape" over PMJT winning election, after election, after election...?



67.38% of the Canadians who voted last election? 





> I would guess any Canadian politician, who ever hopes to become PM, would distance themselves from "Alternative for Germany".



Agreed. Maybe the Prime Minister will think twice before trying to brag about invoking the Emergency Act on the world stage.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Mar 2022)

> Who suffers angst aka "bent out of shape" over PMJT winning election, after election, after election...?



Presumably people who don't like Trudeau.  But we're only on the 7th year of his government, and federal governments often last for more than 8 years.  He's substantially more scandal-prone than his predecessor, which accounts for some of the frustration.  Ethics can be paid out, and the price this week is a dental plan and a pharma plan and a few other goodies.


----------



## GK .Dundas (26 Mar 2022)

[/QUOTE]





Altair said:


> I think the PP faction of the party is perfectly content being a regional protest party.


Bingo !


----------



## Blackadder1916 (26 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I think the PP faction of the party is perfectly content being a regional protest party.



"PP"?  Could you clarify what you mean by the initialism/acronym.  Is is Pierre Poilievre?  People's Party? Or does it refer to tiny masculine reproductive equipment?

I suppose in context of "regional protest party" it could refer to any of or all three.  Sarcasm aside, I don't think any of them are content to being a regional protest party, but they labour under the fantasy that a majority will magically rise up and accept their platform without question or need to modify it.


----------



## GK .Dundas (26 Mar 2022)

Currently there are people who are in the CPC who are not doing the party any favours .
The "I'm  totally in favour of conversion therapy for homosexuals....especially if it causes physical pain. And what's wrong with burning witches anyway?" crowd. 
If you think I'm joking attend.one of the party functions. 
There's not as many as there were, not when Max Bernier's party is an option.
But still they are there and they are more vocal then the rest of the party.
Say what you want about the Liberals they have very tight party discipline. You rarely hear about their loons.


----------



## Remius (26 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Say what you want about the Liberals they have very tight party discipline. You rarely hear about their loons.


they have the NDP and Green Party for the loons.  The PPC is only relatively new.  Give it time and maybe they’ll migrate.


----------



## GK .Dundas (26 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> they have the NDP and Green Party for the loons.  The PPC is only relatively new.  Give it time and maybe they’ll migrate.


Oh the Liberals have their loons but  they tend to keep a tight lid on them..


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Say what you want about the Liberals they have very tight party discipline. You rarely hear about their loons.



No, but we see them on camera and read about them in the news from time to time 

MP says he urinated on camera 'without realizing' month after being caught naked​








						MP says he urinated on camera 'without realizing' month after being caught naked
					

A Liberal MP who was caught naked on a House of Commons video conference feed in April has now urinated while on camera, which he says was 'accidental.'



					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Remius (28 Mar 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508248885235494924


----------



## Booter (28 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> MP says he urinated on camera 'without realizing' month after being caught naked​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he finishes jogging, goes home to change. Camera on.

Okay.

Resigns…says he is stepping away from his duties to get “assistance”.

Needs help with what?


----------



## brihard (28 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508248885235494924



From Ottawa Police:





						News and Media - Ottawa Police Service
					






					www.ottawapolice.ca
				






			
				OPS said:
			
		

> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Monday, March 28, 2022   8:00 am
> 
> (Ottawa) – The Ottawa Police Service has arrested and charged Randall HILLIER, 64 years old, of Perth, Ontario. Hillier is the Member of Provincial Parliament for Lanark-Frontenac-Kingston.
> 
> ...



The assault police/peace officer is the only one that really jumps out at me, the rest is pretty par for the course. I’m not sure offhand which incident that pertains to.

Anyway, charges laid, innocent til proven guilty etc. Significant move by OPS though.


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Mar 2022)

Does "CCC 270 (1) (a) Assault Peace Or Public Officer X1" have to be a police officer, per se? Can he have "assaulted" a by-law enforcement officer, for example, and still be charged with that?


----------



## Booter (28 Mar 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Does "CCC 270 (1) (a) Assault Peace Or Public Officer X1" have to be a police officer, per se? Can he have "assaulted" a by-law enforcement officer, for example, and still be charged with that?


In the course of their duties yes. It can vary by the personality of the jurisdiction and even the time.

Generally, bylaw officers in the course of their duties are peace officers when using an authority- a police officer is a peace officer all the time when at work. There are some off work considerations but for the purpose of your comment this works. 

This has gone back and forth, and even jurisdictions next to each other can vary of how they treat it.


----------



## FSTO (28 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> he finishes jogging, goes home to change. Camera on.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> ...


Tony Weiner Walt?


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> From Ottawa Police:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CCC 464 (a) Counsel An Uncommitted Indictable X1.  Twice.  So, even though no illegal act was committed, you can be charged for counselling said act? What about the bipedal humanoid entity that didn't commit the indictable act? Can they be charged with having bad thought?  Minority Report was supposed to be sci fi, not a blueprint for a legal system.


----------



## Remius (28 Mar 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> CCC 464 (a) Counsel An Uncommitted Indictable X1.  Twice.  So, even though no illegal act was committed, you can be charged for counselling said act? What about the bipedal humanoid entity that didn't commit the indictable act? Can they be charged with having bad thought?  Minority Report was supposed to be sci fi, not a blueprint for a legal system.


Apparently it goes to intent.  I suppose it depends on that and just how serious the counsel is. 

So if I counsel a woman I am involved with to kill her husband and I do so with the intent of her seing it through but she decides that maybe I’ve gone too far and reports me by saying this guy is trying to get me to kill my husband would that not lead to charges?   Seems like it might. 

I’m sure some more learned people about the law will explain it better. 

I had a quick look into it as this is the first time I’ve seen charges like this.









						The Crime of Counseling Criminal Offences - LawNow Magazine
					

This article explores the counselling crimes provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada as related to freedom of expression




					www.lawnow.org
				




It explains it fairly well even if it’s dated from 2014.


----------



## brihard (28 Mar 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> CCC 464 (a) Counsel An Uncommitted Indictable X1.  Twice.  So, even though no illegal act was committed, you can be charged for counselling said act? What about the bipedal humanoid entity that didn't commit the indictable act? Can they be charged with having bad thought?  Minority Report was supposed to be sci fi, not a blueprint for a legal system.


You bet your ass you can be charged with counseling even though you fail to achieve your desired ends. Someone else being smart enough not to do it doesn’t mean you haven’t committed the offence of counselling them to. Counseling means you’re basically trying to actively encourage or incite an offence to be committed. It’s your intent that that crime happen, by another party doing it, and you take active steps to try to achieve that through encouragement. There’s nothing new about this law, nor anything political in its use.

The specifics of that alleged count will be interesting. I won’t speculate about this ongoing criminal case, but I have a few ideas about what it refers to.


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Mar 2022)

I think Mr Hillier's position ~ as an elected MPP ~ and his considerable flair for publicity make his comments and "advice" during the demonstration/occupation/whatever more likely to be influential and, therefore, make him different from someone who was just dancing around and screaming "F_ _k Trudeau!" or "Burn it down!" (I did hear both comments on one (and more, in the case of the first comment) of my walkabouts.)


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Mar 2022)

_Removed as it was a derailment_


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Rex Murphy: Justin Trudeau has become a punchline on the world stage — for good reason
					

This is a sad moment — for Canada and its standing within the free world




					nationalpost.com


----------



## mariomike (4 Apr 2022)

Update today from SIU.

SIU Closes Investigation into Reported Serious Injury of Woman at Ottawa Protests; Woman Not Seriously Injured​


> The matter has been referred to the TPS for further investigation as they deem appropriate.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511092138074939396


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Apr 2022)

But she died at least 3 times...!!!


----------



## Remius (4 Apr 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> But she died at least 3 times...!!!


Only once at this event.  But we all know how transparent the SIU is.  Her poor family and all those funeral costs again.


----------



## McG (4 Apr 2022)




----------



## PMedMoe (5 Apr 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> But she died at least 3 times...!!!



From death to a broken collar bone to a sprained shoulder.  It's a bloody miracle!!


----------



## Remius (5 Apr 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> From death to a broken collar bone to a sprained shoulder.  It's a bloody miracle!!


Strained shoulder.  Strained.  Stop with the fake news!


----------



## Remius (7 Apr 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/freedom-convoy-donations-1.6410105
		


Some people that donated will never see that money or know where it went…


----------



## Weinie (7 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/freedom-convoy-donations-1.6410105
> 
> 
> 
> Some people that donated will never see that money or know where it went…


Sorta like WE.


----------



## Remius (7 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sorta like WE.


Yes. Good thing I was smart enough not to donate to either.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Yes. Good thing I was smart enough not to donate to either.


As a taxpayer, I’m not so sure you didn’t…


----------



## Remius (7 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> As a taxpayer, I’m not so sure you didn’t…


No, that just means I’m a sucker for paying taxes lol.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> No, that just means I’m a sucker for paying taxes lol.


You, I and others…yup. 😉


----------



## armrdsoul77 (9 Apr 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511092138074939396
The horse has also apologized.


----------



## Navy_Pete (11 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/freedom-convoy-donations-1.6410105
> 
> 
> 
> Some people that donated will never see that money or know where it went…


In totally unrelataed news to the missing donations, Mrs. Lich has hired Lawrence Greenspon as her lawyer....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/otta...t-tamara-lich-freedom-convoy-lawyer-1.6415985


----------



## GK .Dundas (11 Apr 2022)

As it turns out Ms. Lich is not a complete ..um has excellent taste in lawyers


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Apr 2022)

Bit of a sidebar, but seems like a good example of the general disaster that is the Ottawa Police Services Board and their conduct during the Convoy protests;

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/uday-jaswal-negotiations-settlement-ottawa-police-1.6416408


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Bit of a sidebar, but seems like a good example of the general disaster that is the Ottawa Police Services Board and their conduct during the Convoy protests;
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/uday-jaswal-negotiations-settlement-ottawa-police-1.6416408


Here’s an interesting tidbit from the article/process:



> All of those charges [against Jaswal] were officially withdrawn by the OCPC on March 29 because the commission doesn't have jurisdiction to hear cases against resigned or retired police officers.


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Apr 2022)

@Good2Golf I did see that; pretty greasy. They specifically adjourned his disciplinary proceedings for six counts of misconduct (including 3 counts of sexual harassment) so he could negotiate a settlement, which I didn't realize was a thing.

This seems even worse than some of the BS the CAF has pulled with people pleading to lesser charges; near as I can tell he'll have zero findings against his record which is theoretically clean. WTF?

Sadly, not really surprised that the board was spineless and ineffective (I guess they are consistent?) but don't see anything from stopping him from going to be Chief at a different department.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Apr 2022)

We'll see ....


> ... The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today announced the establishment of the Public Order Emergency Commission, an independent public inquiry following the invocation of the _Emergencies Act.
> _
> The Commission will examine the circumstances that led to the declaration being issued and the measures taken in response to the emergency. This includes the evolution of the convoy, the impact of funding and disinformation, the economic impact, and efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration.
> 
> ...


🍿


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2022)

Booter said:


> he finishes jogging, goes home to change. Camera on.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> ...



Well, he claims it's not due to mental illness:

Liberal MP William Amos says he appeared naked on camera twice due to 'hyperactive multitasking'​May run again in next election — but that may not be as the Liberals' candidate









						MP says he urinated on camera 'without realizing' month after being caught naked
					

A Liberal MP who was caught naked on a House of Commons video conference feed in April has now urinated while on camera, which he says was 'accidental.'



					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

Yeah, stuff like that just happens.


----------



## Booter (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah, stuff like that just happens.


Mondays 🤷‍♀️


----------



## brihard (25 Apr 2022)

Let he who is without pants cast the first stone.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

I don't think he was "casting" his stones...unless that's some term of art I haven't heard yet.


----------



## Haggis (25 Apr 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> We'll see ....
> 
> 🍿


I don't think he'll have much to inquire about.


----------



## Haggis (26 Apr 2022)

Interesting article on the impact of the border blockades.  In that the Liberal government has invoked Cabinet Confidence on discussions regarding the EA,  our chances of knowing the full justification behind it are scant.


----------



## QV (27 Apr 2022)

Haggis said:


> Interesting article on the impact of the border blockades.  In that the Liberal government has invoked Cabinet Confidence on discussions regarding the EA,  our chances of knowing the full justification behind it are scant.


Well the AG said one reason was because CBC stated there was foreign funding, so... the government paid media outlet being part of the basis for government enacting extraordinary powers on it's citizens.


----------



## Navy_Pete (27 Apr 2022)

QV said:


> Well the AG said one reason was because CBC stated there was foreign funding, so... the government paid media outlet being part of the basis for government enacting extraordinary powers on it's citizens.


Yes, when $45M in trade goes across at Coutts daily, and $400M daily at the Ambassador bridge, the GoC needed a CBC article to have a justification to ensure free right of passage across our sovereign border crossing.

The why aside, the implementation of the EA was undeniably effective at clearing the convoy from Ottawa and getting the border crossings opened back up.  A lot of that could have happened without the EA, but seems like the EA allowed a lot of the weird police jursidicational issues in Ottawa to get put to the side.

Cabinet Confidence can get waived no problem, so really depends how transparent the PMO wants to be with the inquiry. If there was specific intelligence might be good reasons not to have that public, but some kind of precis should be a reasonable compromise.

Of course, the inquiry will turn into an empty, superficial political point and soundbite contest with no real results, so not holding my breath.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yes, when $45M in trade goes across at Coutts daily, and $400M daily at the Ambassador bridge, the GoC needed a CBC article to have a justification to ensure free right of passage across our sovereign border crossing.



Exactly. So why use the CBC at all?  Let alone make it sound like a major justifying factor. 




> Cabinet Confidence can get waived no problem, so really depends how transparent the PMO wants to be with the inquiry.



 2+ years down the to we can expect black pieces of paper, an inquiry where not all witnesses were called, and not all stories get told.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Exactly. So why use the CBC at all?  Let alone make it sound like a major justifying factor.


Yes use Twitter...OH Wait!!


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yes, when $45M in trade goes across at Coutts daily, and $400M daily at the Ambassador bridge, the GoC needed a CBC article to have a justification to ensure free right of passage across our sovereign border crossing.



Yikes, the narrative unravels: The economic nightmare that wasn’t? Border blockades had little effect on trade, data reveals - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Apr 2022)

@PuckChaser Did you read the article? Sure, traffic got through, but added long delays (6 hours +) to each and every trip, so the hauling companies took a big hit to the pocket, and that's a hell of a jump for the workday for the drivers. That's unsustainable.

Also got the car companies looking at their just in time logisitics system across the border, which was already under scrutiny from COVID. Things stopped hard for a few days which impacted production, but wouldn't be surprised to see more plants close down over time and move out of Canada to specifically ensure the supply chain isn't impacted by border issues.

The dollar amount is more of an indication of the amount of trade that is re-routed, but just because it eventually got through, doesn't mean there aren't real costs, just that it's really hard to put a number on. At the end of the day, it's our sovereign border, and it's entirely within the GoC responsibility to make sure it's under their control. The EA might have been a sledgehammer, but it did work.

Rights to protest don't overrule others rights to work, so shutting down the busiest border crossing that has a massive amount of daily trade in an area with a tightly integrated cross border manufacturing sector was a selfish move to start with and should have been jumped on sooner. Generally stupid move as well, as the autoworkers might have rumbled them anyway if it went much longer.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Apr 2022)

You're right, so every rail blockade, highway protest and pipeline protest should result in Emergencies Act being used and bank accounts frozen without warrant. Heck, should use Emergencies Act to stop union protest picket lines too.

Inconvienced does not mean we should throw away the rule of law.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> The dollar amount is more of an indication of the amount of trade that is re-routed, but just because it eventually got through, doesn't mean there aren't real costs, just that it's really hard to put a number on. At the end of the day, it's our sovereign border, and it's entirely within the GoC responsibility to make sure it's under their control. The EA might have been a sledgehammer, but it did work.


For the record…or more correctly, to note the record, the Windsor blockade was resolved through established means via an Ontario Supreme Court injunction (11 Feb) and Windsor Police Services and supporting services clearing the blockade within 48 hours (13 Feb)…all *BEFORE* the Federal government enacted the EA.

So we know that the EA was not necessary.  It only served to provide some _Maskirovka_ for the disfunctional political-police interaction in the National Capital Region.

Heck, 21-year old Zexi Ali and her injunction to stop horns blaring was more effective than the Fed-Prov-City bickering that went on.


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Apr 2022)

No, there are already existing laws for preventing blockades on major traffic arteries; they should simply be applied evenly.

Picketers protesting their own employer as part of a labour strike is a targeted action, protestors randomly blocking the borders because reasons is just stupid, and demonstrates a bit of a lack of understanding on basic Canadian civics anyway. 

Everyone's individual rights needs to be balanced against the rights of others, and a right to peaceful protest isn't an unlimited one.

This whole protest was really a lost opportunity; they had enough numbers and dedication to be effective, but instead they behaved like tantruming children, targeted the wrong levels of government, and managed to actively lose the large amount of public sympathy they had at the start by just being bellends. The spouting of random conspiracy theories, calls to overthrow the democratically elected government just because they don't like Trudeau, and association with white supremacists and other nutjobs turned the whole thing into a joke.


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Apr 2022)

Well look out in Ottawa on Friday when the Motorcycle protest rally wheels in.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

> For the record…or more correctly, to note the record, the Windsor blockade was resolved through established means via an Ontario Supreme Court injunction (11 Feb) and Windsor Police Services and supporting services clearing the blockade within 48 hours (13 Feb)…all *BEFORE* the Federal government enacted the EA.



Was starting to wonder if anyone remembered that.

When arguing that "X" contributed to "Y", it's best that there actually be an arrow of causation from "X" to "Y".


----------



## Remius (28 Apr 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Inconvienced does not mean we should throw away the rule of law.


True,  but the convoy types certainly did do exactly that to voice their displeasure at being inconvenienced by pandemic measures.  Works both ways.


----------



## IKnowNothing (28 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> For the record…or more correctly, to note the record, the Windsor blockade was resolved through established means via an Ontario Supreme Court injunction (11 Feb) and Windsor Police Services and supporting services clearing the blockade within 48 hours (13 Feb)…all *BEFORE* the Federal government enacted the EA.
> 
> *So we know that the EA was not necessary.  *


Agreed, with the caveat that the Provinces acted to resolve issues that fell under their jurisdiction in a timely manner.  It was a game of chicken that JT lost.


----------



## GK .Dundas (28 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Agreed, with the caveat that the Provinces acted to resolve issues that fell under their jurisdiction in a timely manner.  It was a game of chicken that JT lost.


I am starting to wonder if government at least the federal side of it  forgotten how to deal with crisis. Get them away from day to day operations and they seem to freeze up.
It's not just the political side either the civil service seems almost lost when something like this happens.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

> Works both ways.



What works both ways?  I assume you don't mean "throwing away the law".


----------



## Kilted (28 Apr 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-tomb-unknown-soldier-police-1.6434275


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> For the record…or more correctly, to note the record, the Windsor blockade was resolved through established means via an Ontario Supreme Court injunction (11 Feb) and Windsor Police Services and supporting services clearing the blockade within 48 hours (13 Feb)…all *BEFORE* the Federal government enacted the EA.
> 
> So we know that the EA was not necessary.  It only served to provide some _Maskirovka_ for the disfunctional political-police interaction in the National Capital Region.
> 
> Heck, 21-year old Zexi Ali and her injunction to stop horns blaring was more effective than the Fed-Prov-City bickering that went on.


Thanks, my mistake.

It really seemed to be the game changer in the NCR though; was pretty pathetic that it took a 21 year old to get a court injunction and the EA to get the OPS to do anything, but the leadership there was just about as competent as city hall. Not sure who was actually in charge of the clear out, but once the RCMP, OPP and others came onboard (maybe Gatineau and some Toronto police?) was finally an effective response.

The police in Windsor did a really great job though, was nice to see but made the OPS look especially amateurish.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Apr 2022)

Has the PM moved to a safe house yet?


----------



## brihard (28 Apr 2022)

Kilted said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-tomb-unknown-soldier-police-1.6434275


That’s fine. What she did was crass and ugly and stupid, but I’m not sure what criminal charge it’s imagined would likely stick. Mischief is defined under S.430 of the Criminal Code;


*430* (1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully
(a) destroys or damages property;
(b) renders property dangerous, useless, inoperative or ineffective;
(c) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property; or
(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property.


Subsection (4.11) is mischief relating specifically to war memorials. I would see it being difficult to claim that she actually did any of those listed things to an extent that would be criminal.

Now, as a vet, seeing that? Fucking infuriating. But she made an utter ass of herself on the national stage, did no actual damage, and can’t be claimed to have inhibited anyone’s ‘operation’ or ‘use’ of the memorial. I don’t see the public interest in pushing that one through court if, in fact, she has shown remorse and other lesser measures have been used.



OldSolduer said:


> Well look out in Ottawa on Friday when the Motorcycle protest rally wheels in.



They will be coming into an Ottawa whose police are very prepared to clear them out right ricky tick the second it’s necessary to. They can have their little parade as long as they carry on through. Like anyone, they can make their way to downtown and go have a tantrum on the Hill. What there won’t be is anything approaching a repeat of February.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Apr 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s fine. What she did was crass and ugly and stupid, but I’m not sure what criminal charge it’s imagined would likely stick. Mischief is defined under S.430 of the Criminal Code;
> 
> 
> *430*(1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully
> ...


Plus, her little crew were toting a Quebec flag around, so that makes it even okayer.


----------



## brihard (28 Apr 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Plus, her little crew were toting a Quebec flag around, so that makes it even okayer.


That would have had no bearing on the decision Ottawa Police and/or Ontario provincial crown made regarding charges or alternative measures… Quebec residents got charged like anyone else.


----------



## lenaitch (29 Apr 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s fine. What she did was crass and ugly and stupid, but I’m not sure what criminal charge it’s imagined would likely stick. Mischief is defined under S.430 of the Criminal Code;
> 
> 
> *430*(1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully
> ...


I don't know if you are signed up to be part of this latest go-round, but the media keeps reporting that Ottawa PS or PSB has 'appointed' or 'approved' (the words seem to vary), X number of RCMP members to assist OPS.  One article used the term 'special constable'.  Seeing as police authority isn't an issue, I'm at a loss to understand what they are talking about.  Is it related to enforcing provincial offences/city bylaws, some kind of agreement that they will be subject to the SUI or is it just a salary dollars + expenses funding thing?


----------



## lenaitch (29 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> No, there are already existing laws for preventing blockades on major traffic arteries; they should simply be applied evenly.
> 
> Picketers protesting their own employer as part of a labour strike is a targeted action, protestors randomly blocking the borders because reasons is just stupid, and demonstrates a bit of a lack of understanding on basic Canadian civics anyway.
> 
> ...


I do think the EA had some merit, although it should not have been necessary if OPS had their act together.  Individual violations of criminal, provincial or municipal law have to be prosecuted as individual acts, meaning that, if an offence says 'wilfully' or 'without lawful excuse', that fact in issue has to be addressed in every case.  If the EA order says 'you can't be on Wellington', the validity of the order should only have to be established once.   Of course, if it fails once, I suppose it fails spectacularly.

Then there was the 'reluctant tow truck' issue.  The police can't normally force a private business to, well, do business.  There might be some obscure old statute out there that says otherwise but I'll bet it hasn't been tested since the Charter.

It is true that Windsor was cleared prior to the EA, but there was also an injunction regarding the private property of the bridge and approach plazas.


----------



## brihard (29 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I don't know if you are signed up to be part of this latest go-round, but the media keeps reporting that Ottawa PS or PSB has 'appointed' or 'approved' (the words seem to vary), X number of RCMP members to assist OPS.  One article used the term 'special constable'.  Seeing as police authority isn't an issue, I'm at a loss to understand what they are talking about.  Is it related to enforcing provincial offences/city bylaws, some kind of agreement that they will be subject to the SUI or is it just a salary dollars + expenses funding thing?


It has to do with appointing RCMP members as Special Constables for the City of Ottawa. RCMP aren’t a “police service” under Ontario’s Police Services Act. They still have full authority to enforce federal laws, of course, but they have zero authority for provincial laws like traffic, mental health, trespass etc. The Special Constable appointment extends that to them, granting powers for things like non-criminal traffic stops, controlling or directing traffic, removing vehicles from a road, etc. It’s one of those weird peculiarities of police jurisdictions and provincial law.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Apr 2022)

I wonder how inclined bikers will be to rev their engines with the price of gas in Ottawa.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Then there was the 'reluctant tow truck' issue. The police can't normally force a private business to, well, do business. There might be some obscure old statute out there that says otherwise but I'll bet it hasn't been tested since the Charter.



While there were a few commercial operators in the clear out, the majority of the vehicles were OC Transpo’s own wreckers, so I don’t buy the argument by some that commercial wreckers were a hard stop for the clear out, it was more the lack of will to enforce using tools at hand. 



lenaitch said:


> It is true that Windsor was cleared prior to the EA, but there was also an injunction regarding the private property of the bridge and approach plazas.



So is your case that injunctions only work for private property?  The Li/OSC injunction against horn blowing worked and wasn’t limited to only trucks on private property.


----------



## Haggis (29 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Then there was the 'reluctant tow truck' issue.  The police can't normally force a private business to, well, do business.


That was a red-herring.  There are exponentially more semi-trucks than heavy wreckers in Ontario.  The truckers need the wreckers more than vice versa, particularly with the increasing number of big truck accidents. I travel the ON 401 and QC 20 and/or 40 every day and barely a day goes by when I don't see something being recovered or towed by a heavy wrecker.


----------



## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Thanks, my mistake.
> 
> It really seemed to be the game changer in the NCR though; was pretty pathetic that it took a 21 year old to get a court injunction and the EA to get the OPS to do anything, but the leadership there was just about as competent as city hall. Not sure who was actually in charge of the clear out, but once the RCMP, OPP and others came onboard (maybe Gatineau and some Toronto police?) was finally an effective response.
> 
> The police in Windsor did a really great job though, was nice to see but made the OPS look especially amateurish.


The main trouble...or difference was that Windsor was a very clear delineation point between where Federal Authority ends and Municipal / Provincial began. 

A border crossing, and impeding the traffic flow to those crossing, is a very definitive Federal issue.  

A Federal site ( Parliament Hill) surrounded by infrastructure ( municipal), and a question over authority, or even applicable law was one of the main hold ups. I recall the first few days it was almost an exercise in finger pointing from the Mayor, and the Minister of Public Safety...( of course, looked like a pair of clowns).  Meanwhile Rome burned to the sound of fiddle music....


----------



## Remius (29 Apr 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> The main trouble...or difference was that Windsor was a very clear delineation point between where Federal Authority ends and Municipal / Provincial began.
> 
> A border crossing, and impeding the traffic flow to those crossing, is a very definitive Federal issue.
> 
> A Federal site ( Parliament Hill) surrounded by infrastructure ( municipal), and a question over authority, or even applicable law was one of the main hold ups. I recall the first few days it was almost an exercise in finger pointing from the Mayor, and the Minister of Public Safety...( of course, looked like a pair of clowns).  Meanwhile Rome burned to the sound of fiddle music....


Ottawa City Hall needs a complete purge when the election rolls around.  Not a single one there showed any real leadership.


----------



## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Ottawa City Hall needs a complete purge when the election rolls around.  Not a single one there showed any real leadership.


Concur.

Mitic should throw his hat back in the ring....


----------



## mariomike (29 Apr 2022)

brihard said:


> Like anyone, they can make their way to downtown and go have a tantrum on the Hill.



Looks like MPP  Randy will be sitting this one out,


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/randy-hillier-freedom-convoy-rolling-thunder-bail-review-downtown-ottawa-1.6434323


----------



## torg003 (29 Apr 2022)

Maybe it's time to consider making the Ottawa-Gatineau region into a National Capital Territory (or Federal Capital Territory) with the RCMP responsible for the policing.  Yes, would take a referendum for the change, so not likely to happen, but wouldn't hurt Canadians to have that conversation.


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Ottawa City Hall needs a complete purge when the election rolls around.  Not a single one there showed any real leadership.


Aside from this, the majority of them were useless on the LRT. There are a few good councillors that consistently question the mayor, but with his little clique they push BS through.

The clowns approved the LRT and disregarded questions about whether the proposed winner had actually met the technical requirements (shocker: they didn't).  Only a once a generation, multibillion dollar infrastructure contract, no big deal. Lot of negligence to go around, but can't wait for the mayor and cronies to get tossed on their collectively useless assess (and greasy sex pest Chiarelli to get punted, because he's too shameless to resign after getting banned for 450 days).

Really frustrating, they have access to way more potential resources than a lot of other cities just by being the capitol city, but they squander it by being criminally feckless.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Aside from this, the majority of them were useless on the LRT. There are a few good councillors that consistently question the mayor, but with his little clique they push BS through.
> 
> The clowns approved the LRT and disregarded questions about whether the proposed winner had actually met the technical requirements (shocker: they didn't).  Only a once a generation, multibillion dollar infrastructure contract, no big deal. Lot of negligence to go around, but can't wait for the mayor and cronies to get tossed on their collectively useless assess (and greasy sex pest Chiarelli to get punted, because he's too shameless to resign after getting banned for 450 days).
> 
> Really frustrating, they have access to way more potential resources than a lot of other cities just by being the capitol city, but they squander it by being criminally feckless.


Ummmm I sense you want to vent?


----------



## brihard (29 Apr 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> A Federal site ( Parliament Hill) surrounded by infrastructure ( municipal), and a question over authority, or even applicable law was one of the main hold ups.


No. Ottawa Police are the police of jurisdiction and have already got responsibility for public order functions including on Parliament Hill. RCMP used to do it for PH as needed, but that’s been handed off. RCMP will support if requested, but it’s OPS lead.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Apr 2022)

SeNd In ThE aRmY!


----------



## lenaitch (29 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> While there were a few commercial operators in the clear out, the majority of the vehicles were OC Transpo’s own wreckers, so I don’t buy the argument by some that commercial wreckers were a hard stop for the clear out, it was more the lack of will to enforce using tools at hand.


[/QUOTE]

Forgot about that, which is rather unique to Ottawa (I don't think even  the TTC has its own wreckers).  Not saying it was a hard stop, but was reported as a potential issue.  In comparison, it was a rather minor issue in the face of all the issues OPS had to deal with.


Good2Golf said:


> So is your case that injunctions only work for private property?  The Li/OSC injunction against horn blowing worked and wasn’t limited to only trucks on private property.


Not at all.  As I recall, the private injunction only called for the noise to stop.  I'm not sure how successful a residential property owner or tenant would be trying to get judicial strength to clear public property.  The city could have.


Haggis said:


> That was a red-herring.  There are exponentially more semi-trucks than heavy wreckers in Ontario.  The truckers need the wreckers more than vice versa, particularly with the increasing number of big truck accidents. I travel the ON 401 and QC 20 and/or 40 every day and barely a day goes by when I don't see something being recovered or towed by a heavy wrecker.


I'm only going on what was reported.  Perhaps it was over-stated.

It has been seen as enough of a concern that the Ontario government has announced they are buying their own heavy wreckers.  I can only hope they are given to the MTO and not the OPP.  It reminds me of a very bad snowstorm in the 1970s when people were stranded for several days over a wide swath of S. Ont.  In the aftermath, the OPP bought 2 or 3 large Bombardier snow buses.  They sat a rusted for several years until they were finally disposed.


----------



## brihard (29 Apr 2022)

Looks like Ottawa Police took exactly zero BS this evening… Protesters got pushy-shovey with police and brought some vehicles in. Several arrests, vehicles towed and impounded with minimal delay, Ottawa Police public order unit quote handily cleared the crowd from the Rideau Street/Sussex/Colonel By intersections which was the scene of a full day’s labour for police back in February.

I’m curious to see what tomorrow brings.


----------



## mariomike (30 Apr 2022)

> (I don't think even  the TTC has its own wreckers).



No. They do not have their own wreckers. It is contracted out.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Looks like Ottawa Police took exactly zero BS this evening… Protesters got pushy-shovey with police and brought some vehicles in. Several arrests, vehicles towed and impounded with minimal delay, Ottawa Police public order unit quote handily cleared the crowd from the Rideau Street/Sussex/Colonel By intersections which was the scene of a full day’s labour for police back in February.
> 
> I’m curious to see what tomorrow brings.



Which is what should have happened during 'Part 1' of the protests, of course.


----------



## FSTO (2 May 2022)

I've always thought that Mendicino was a little greasy, but then I'm a bit biased about the LPC. But for a party that is wedded to "facts and science" sure don't like it when facts are found not to line up with their version of events.









						Downplaying risks from Ottawa trucker convoy after the fact is ‘revisionist’: minister - National | Globalnews.ca
					

'I am concerned in my capacity as minister of public safety about the ideological extremism that sparked the occupation here in Ottawa and the blockades,' said Marco Mendicino.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Remius (8 May 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/freedom-convoy-protesters-struggling-to-get-back-seized-items-from-police-1.6445709


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 May 2022)

Any similarities are purely coincidental, Comrades 


*Why the Chinese government has embraced morality councils

A new way to keep villagers in line*

N THE VILLAGE of Anbang in Yunnan, a south-western province, people of social stature are heaving a sigh of relief. In the past, what a delicate matter it was to point out bad behaviour among residents. There was etiquette to consider, and the risk of causing offence. Recently, however, Anbang has set up a “moral review council” to praise the worthy and criticise the errant. The local government says the mood has changed. Now the village elite can use these meetings to exercise their “right to speak”.

In some parts of China, such councils have been a feature of rural life since the 1980s. Their members—mainly drawn from the ranks of village powerholders—have met regularly to praise those who are well-behaved and denounce others’ misdeeds, face to face. By 2018 more than half of China’s provinces had them, according to Shaoying Zhang of Shanghai University of Political Science and Law. In a paper last July, he said the councillors were “like the village priest or the Protestant pastor in rural European contexts centuries ago”.

In the past couple of years, the central government (ever keen to tighten social controls) has been stressing their importance. Like other places, Anbang has been using its council to enforce covid controls—summoning selected villagers to point out their failings, such as resisting vaccination. The humiliation does not stop in the meeting room. Offenders may be subjected to public shaming by having their names displayed on a morality notice board for all to see.

As Mr Zhang points out, councillors are usually male. Their values reflect patriarchal traditions. Those chosen for praise are often women deemed to have shown exemplary behaviour in their roles as mothers-in-law or daughters-in-law (a relationship that is often tense in Chinese villages, where married women usually live with their husband’s family). Respect for the elderly is also prized. Bad behaviour can cover a wide range of sins: littering, gambling, urinating in public or “superstition”, such as burning paper money for the dead.

It can also include behaviour that the Communist Party regards as threatening to stability. Officials in the countryside are hypervigilant about people who travel to cities to complain to governments there about injustices they have suffered in their villages. Such petitioning is legal as long as the person involved does not bypass their nearest city authority. But, to protect their own backs, village officials are quick to dismiss any petitioning as “unreasonable”, and thus a matter for the morality police.

Baoshan, the municipality to which Anbang belongs, claims the councils are a success. By the end of last year it had 128 of them. “The seeds of morality and civilisation have spread to everyone’s hearts,” the city’s government boasts.

Why the Chinese government has embraced morality councils


----------



## Haggis (18 May 2022)

Ottawa Police say they didn't ask for Emergencies Act

"Speaking at that committee Tuesday, Conservative MP Andrew Scheer asked Ottawa Police chief Steve Bell if he had asked directly for the government to invoke the Emergencies Act.

Bell said they didn’t ask for the act.

“We were involved in conversations with our partners and with the political ministries. We didn’t make a direct request for the Emergencies Act.”."
...

"Bell is the second police official to confirm his force didn’t ask for the invocation of the Emergencies Act, after RCMP commissioner Brenda Lucki revealed the same detail last week to another parliamentary committee studying the invocation of the act."


----------



## Remius (18 May 2022)

Crown wants Freedom Convoy organizer Tamara Lich returned to jail to await trial
					

Crown prosecutors want Ottawa protest organizer Tamara Lich sent back to jail to await trial, claiming she breached her bail conditions by agreeing to participate in an event next month where she will receive a 'Freedom Award.'




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




She could be in a bit of more trouble.


----------



## CBH99 (19 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Crown wants Freedom Convoy organizer Tamara Lich returned to jail to await trial
> 
> 
> Crown prosecutors want Ottawa protest organizer Tamara Lich sent back to jail to await trial, claiming she breached her bail conditions by agreeing to participate in an event next month where she will receive a 'Freedom Award.'
> ...


That’s ironic.

So crown prosecutors want her to be thrown in jail to await trial because she _might_ attend an event to receive an award - something which is perfectly lawful to do. 

If she does attend the event, and that violates her bail conditions, then fine - they can make an argument for her to be remanded.  But until then, perhaps the crown with the file should learn when to STFU…


<_mini rant_>

Seriously, do some crowns TRY to Nancy Harding their own cases when there is a public spotlight on them?

Perhaps this crown should take a step back, go outside and take a breath, and think about the bigger picture and what’s at stake here.  

We’ve all had times where we’ve been perhaps too invested in something to notice the tunnel vision, but this file has the potential to have serious sway in our judicial system.  

The crown should keep that in mind.  

<_mini rant off_>


----------



## SeaKingTacco (19 May 2022)

CBH99 said:


> That’s ironic.
> 
> So crown prosecutors want her to be thrown in jail to await trial because she _might_ attend an event to receive an award - something which is perfectly lawful to do.
> 
> ...


Not a Tamara Lich fan, but we cannot find Crown Prosecutors willing to apply to judges to keep violent criminals with literally hundreds of arrests in a year in jail while awaiting trial…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Not a Tamara Lich fan, but we cannot find Crown Prosecutors willing to apply to judges to keep violent criminals with literally hundreds of arrests in a year in jail while awaiting trial…


Stop talking common sense 😉


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Not a Tamara Lich fan, but we cannot find Crown Prosecutors willing to apply to judges to keep violent criminals with literally hundreds of arrests in a year in jail while awaiting trial…



When five promises to appear are issued to ONE individual in one night…..you might be from Winnipeg


----------



## SeaKingTacco (19 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> When five promises to appear are issued to ONE individual in one night…..you might be from Winnipeg


That is rookie shit…


----------



## QV (19 May 2022)

CBH99 said:


> That’s ironic.
> 
> So crown prosecutors want her to be thrown in jail to await trial because she _might_ attend an event to receive an award - something which is perfectly lawful to do.
> 
> ...






SeaKingTacco said:


> Not a Tamara Lich fan, but we cannot find Crown Prosecutors willing to apply to judges to keep violent criminals with literally hundreds of arrests in a year in jail while awaiting trial…



The bullshit surrounding all of this is so obvious to see.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2022)

QV said:


> The bullshit surrounding all of this is so obvious to see.


Political for sure.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 May 2022)

Trudeau says the police asked for the emergencies act.

The police said they didn't.

I wonder who is lying.


LILLEY: Trudeau spreads misinformation after cops say they didn't ask for Emergencies Act








						LILLEY: Trudeau spreads misinformation after cops say they didn't ask for Emergencies Act
					

When it comes to how the Trudeau Liberals responded to the trucker convoy, misinformation might be the best word to describe it.




					torontosun.com


----------



## QV (19 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau says the police asked for the emergencies act.
> 
> The police said they didn't.
> 
> ...


I think I could make a safe bet on that, but a lot of people nowadays wouldn't be too sure.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau says the police asked for the emergencies act.
> 
> The police said they didn't.
> 
> ...


It won't matter what the truth is as several million people have decided our PM is the "bees knees" and anyone that doesn't follow their flawed logic is "neo con", "nazi" or whatever they choose to call you.


----------



## CBH99 (19 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It won't matter what the truth is as several million people have decided our PM is the "bees knees" and anyone that doesn't follow their flawed logic is "neo con", "nazi" or whatever they choose to call you.


I haven’t listened to the hippie art students near my office for ages.  Why start now?  🤷🏼‍♂️



QV said:


> I think I could make a safe bet on that, but a lot of people nowadays wouldn't be too sure.


you’re not in Alberta, are you?




QV said:


> The bullshit surrounding all of this is so obvious to see.


On the surface, it’s extremely disheartening.

A crown prosecutor should decide to proceed with a file based on their own judgement that an offence has been committed, the circumstances around the offence, and what’s in the best interest of the general public.  

Have the balls to tell the government “No.”


Throwing someone in prison who hasn’t been convicted of the offence yet, because she _might_ attend a public event?  Get f**ked…

How many cases have been dismissed because of political interference?  Plenty.  You want to do the government a service?  Save them a lawsuit and just tell them “No…”

We should try to learn from the mistakes of others as often as possible.  Seeing that the GoC is behind the scenes of all of this, one should remember all those other cases that made the headlines, and made the GoC and Crown Prosecutor look like hacks.  


My 0.02


----------



## brihard (19 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau says the police asked for the emergencies act.
> 
> The police said they didn't.
> 
> ...


I suspect a careful look will find that police didn’t ask for “the emergencies act”, specifically, but rather that certain needs and gaps were identified and articulated. I would guess that police said “here’s what we have / need to be able to do in order to resolve this”, and the government then looked at its options for how that could be achieved.

There was no new law necessary to empower the actual enforcement of clearing people out / arresting them / charging them. The moment the first vehicle went static and started blocking the road, offences were committed. The moment any person acted to obstruct police, they’re arrestable. So that wasn’t the issue. I suspect it came down to the logistics of being able to physically remove potentially hundreds of vehicles. When push literally came to shove, most of them actually turned tail and ran and took their vehicles with them, but it wasn’t anticipated that most of the trucks would actually withdraw under pressure. It was expected that many or most would have to be physically removed, and there were a friggin’ lot of them. It was known that some had been physically disabled, but not how many. At the very last minute, most of them flinched and reversed out of there. But that was definitely on the radar.

I’m not opining on the legitimacy of invoking the EA. I don’t have enough of the facts to speak to that. This is just my thoughts on what some of the considerations may have been.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> When five promises to appear are issued to ONE individual in one night…..you might be from Winnipeg


Wouldn't it be great if we could just issue "Promise to not Appear" as in never show your face around here again 😁


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2022)

brihard said:


> I suspect a careful look will find that police didn’t ask for “the emergencies act”, specifically, but rather that certain needs and gaps were identified and articulated. I would guess that police said “here’s what we have / need to be able to do in order to resolve this”, and the government then looked at its options for how that could be achieved.



A very plausible explanation. If that's the case why lie about it and tell Canadians the police asked for it? That seems like a rather significant detail to gamble with.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> A very plausible explanation. If that's the case why lie about it and tell Canadians the police asked for it? That seems like a rather significant detail to gamble with.


Scorpion’s always gonna sting…


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 May 2022)

Good article


* GUNTER: Elites just can’t accept that there was no convoy conspiracy* 



> Federal, provincial, no matter. Authorities just can’t accept that ordinary people were so fed up with top-down control of their every movement for two years during the pandemic that some blockaded our nation’s capital out of sheer frustration. Elites are so sure the convoy was the false front for some giant conspiracy, funded by sinister, international organizations intent on overthrowing Canada’s peace, order and good government, that they are equally intent on punishing Lich in the extreme.





			GUNTER: Elites just can’t accept that there was no convoy conspiracy


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Good article
> 
> 
> * GUNTER: Elites just can’t accept that there was no convoy conspiracy*
> ...



To me this is all just an extension of our polarization.  I bet that if it had been a Con government in power it would have been the left blockading Ottawa.  Its really getting tiring.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To me this is all just an extension of our polarization.  I bet that if it had been a Con government in power it would have been the left blockading Ottawa.  Its really getting tiring.


Not sure them ringing their handlebar bells 24/7 would have disrupted the locals as much...


----------



## OldSolduer (25 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Good article
> 
> 
> * GUNTER: Elites just can’t accept that there was no convoy conspiracy*
> ...


And that's what got the "let them eat cake " woman Marie Antoinette marched to the guillotine.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> And that's what got the "let them eat cake " woman Marie Antoinette marched to the guillotine.



From 2020, but interesting nonetheless:


The Future of the State​Ten leading global thinkers on government after the pandemic.​

In short, the era of big government is returning, but it will manifest itself in in ways that are quite different from the previous era of large states during the 1960s and 1970s—and much of its new shape will be forged not in the West, but in the East.









						The Future of the State
					

Ten leading global thinkers on government after the pandemic.




					foreignpolicy.com


----------



## Eaglelord17 (25 May 2022)

brihard said:


> I suspect a careful look will find that police didn’t ask for “the emergencies act”, specifically, but rather that certain needs and gaps were identified and articulated. I would guess that police said “here’s what we have / need to be able to do in order to resolve this”, and the government then looked at its options for how that could be achieved.
> 
> There was no new law necessary to empower the actual enforcement of clearing people out / arresting them / charging them. The moment the first vehicle went static and started blocking the road, offences were committed. The moment any person acted to obstruct police, they’re arrestable. So that wasn’t the issue. I suspect it came down to the logistics of being able to physically remove potentially hundreds of vehicles. When push literally came to shove, most of them actually turned tail and ran and took their vehicles with them, but it wasn’t anticipated that most of the trucks would actually withdraw under pressure. It was expected that many or most would have to be physically removed, and there were a friggin’ lot of them. It was known that some had been physically disabled, but not how many. At the very last minute, most of them flinched and reversed out of there. But that was definitely on the radar.
> 
> I’m not opining on the legitimacy of invoking the EA. I don’t have enough of the facts to speak to that. This is just my thoughts on what some of the considerations may have been.


It was a provincial matter which the provinces failed to utilize the resources at their disposal to deal with.

The Feds should have simply said not our problem, go talk to Ford, here is the list of things HE has the power to do to deal with it. For example requesting military assistance being a key one if they didn’t have enough manpower.

Obviously that isn’t what happened, and I would say politically Ford who should have taken the heat for it all, didn’t due to his own inaction. But as our system does have a clear separation of powers built into it, we need to have governments actually stand up and dictate within their own realm instead of trying to be the deciding factor on everything.


----------



## QV (25 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Crown wants Freedom Convoy organizer Tamara Lich returned to jail to await trial
> 
> 
> Crown prosecutors want Ottawa protest organizer Tamara Lich sent back to jail to await trial, claiming she breached her bail conditions by agreeing to participate in an event next month where she will receive a 'Freedom Award.'
> ...











						Judge decides 'Freedom Convoy' organizer Tamara Lich stays free on bail
					

Ontario Superior Court Justice Kevin Phillips said her surety has supervised her well and she's already had a 'taste of jail'




					nationalpost.com
				




She stays free. Some common sense applied in this finally.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2022)

QV said:


> Judge decides 'Freedom Convoy' organizer Tamara Lich stays free on bail
> 
> 
> Ontario Superior Court Justice Kevin Phillips said her surety has supervised her well and she's already had a 'taste of jail'
> ...


Justice is in fact blind and not under political interference (real or imagined)


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> It was a provincial matter which the provinces failed to utilize the resources at their disposal to deal with.
> 
> The Feds should have simply said not our problem, go talk to Ford, here is the list of things HE has the power to do to deal with it. For example requesting military assistance being a key one if they didn’t have enough manpower.


That’s an interesting take on things.  So no municipal responsibility?  Just Provincial?

Windsor tidied things up nicely days prior to the EA, with some Provincial support.  I will give you that if the Feds had kept their nose out of it instead of fanning the flames, the City of Ottawa could have had as much success as a Windsor did.


----------



## QV (25 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Justice is in fact blind and not under political interference (real or imagined)


In many circumstances. Too bad this Crown and the one who went after Adm Norman were probably heavily influenced. So don’t rest too easy.


----------



## Haggis (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Wouldn't it be great if we could just issue "Promise to not Appear" as in never show your face around here again 😁


That's called a "non-returnable warrant".


----------



## Eaglelord17 (25 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> That’s an interesting take on things.  So no municipal responsibility?  Just Provincial?
> 
> Windsor tidied things up nicely days prior to the EA, with some Provincial support.  I will give you that if the Feds had kept their nose out of it instead of fanning the flames, the City of Ottawa could have had as much success as a Windsor did.


Municipalities are creatures of the provinces. If the municipality is failing to deal with it effectively it is the responsibility of the Province to handle it.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Municipalities are creatures of the provinces. If the municipality is failing to deal with it effectively it is the responsibility of the Province to handle it.


…less Ottawa.

I’d be surprised if anyone could say anything at all that would make me believe that Ottawa was entirely a Queen’s Park issue…


----------



## torg003 (26 May 2022)

You are correct.  Ottawa-Gatineau region should be made a separate Federal Capital Territory (following the example of Australia's ACT).


----------



## brihard (26 May 2022)

FWIW, administration of justice (including law enforcement) remains the constitutional responsibility of the province. Also, municipalities do not exercise operational control over police services. The police services are arms length from the municipal (and provincial) governments. It’s reasonable to look first to senior police leadership in any given jurisdiction for why something happened or didn’t).


----------



## dimsum (26 May 2022)

torg003 said:


> You are correct.  Ottawa-Gatineau region should be made a separate Federal Capital Territory (following the example of Australia's ACT).


Or Washington, DC.  Good luck getting ON and PQ to agree to that though.  

ON might, but I'd be surprised if PQ does.


----------



## torg003 (26 May 2022)

You're probably correct, Quebec would be against losing any bit of territory (unless they were compensated somehow).


----------



## Good2Golf (26 May 2022)

brihard said:


> FWIW, administration of justice (including law enforcement) remains the constitutional responsibility of the province. Also, municipalities do not exercise operational control over police services. The police services are arms length from the municipal (and provincial) governments. It’s reasonable to look first to senior police leadership in any given jurisdiction for why something happened or didn’t).


👍🏼 

Which is why my earlier nite about Windsor referred to Windsor (WPS was assumed, I had explicitly noted WPS previously, but should have included it explicitly in my list recent post), with assistance as required/requested of the Province. 

OPS clearly had some internal issues, but I would also note that it would be naive for people to believe that the factor added by the PM’s and other higher levels of government, didn’t make the OPS’ task particularly less difficult.


----------



## brihard (26 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> 👍🏼
> 
> Which is why my earlier nite about Windsor referred to Windsor (WPS was assumed, I had explicitly noted WPS previously, but should have included it explicitly in my list recent post), with assistance as required/requested of the Province.
> 
> OPS clearly had some internal issues, but I would also note that it would be naive for people to believe that the factor added by the PM’s and other higher levels of government, didn’t make the OPS’ task particularly less difficult.


Yup. When it came time for Windsor Police to actually execute a plan, they did so and they had help. OPP and RCMP were also present and helping with the public order response. They saw the issue and they acted.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 May 2022)

torg003 said:


> You're probably correct, Quebec would be against losing any bit of territory (unless they were compensated somehow).


Quebec will say no because someone else said yes.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup. When it came time for Windsor Police to actually execute a plan, they did so and they had help. OPP and RCMP were also present and helping with the public order response. They saw the issue and they acted.


I was not impressed with the Ottawa chief - the one that got fired.


----------



## Remius (27 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I was not impressed with the Ottawa chief - the one that got fired.


Him and every single elected member of council.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I was not impressed with the Ottawa chief - the one that got fired.


Nobody was.  

Apparently he wrote something recently explaining his (in)actions.  I need to find it.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Nobody was.
> 
> Apparently he wrote something recently explaining his (in)actions.  I need to find it.


I always got the impression he was in over his head and did not have the sense to realize it.  Plus the briefs always sounded like the OPS was taking Juno Beach again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 May 2022)

Filed under_ nothing to see here._

Ottawa refusing to provide information about law used to shut down trucker protests​


----------



## Booter (27 May 2022)

I’m watching this stuff because I still don’t understand- beyond the banking stuff how this couldn’t have been dealt with without this EA stuff. I think Brihard tried explaining it and I didn’t get it then either- he knows much better than I do.

I only know the stuff I’ve done that didn’t need expanded authorities. Maybe I’ll do some googling.


----------



## brihard (27 May 2022)

Booter said:


> I’m watching this stuff because I still don’t understand- beyond the banking stuff how this couldn’t have been dealt with without this EA stuff. I think Brihard tried explaining it and I didn’t get it then either- he knows much better than I do.
> 
> I only know the stuff I’ve done that didn’t need expanded authorities. Maybe I’ll do some googling.


I can’t and haven’t spoken to anything close to all of it- just that there was no lack of enforcement authorities. From the moment the first car blocked the first street, police had all necessary legal authority to physically remove it and to charge the driver. The situation escalated to criminal mischief very quickly, but police were super lenient in enforcing this.

The emergencies act allowed for other things, particularly financial ‘sanctions’, for lack of a better term, and compelling banks to act against the accounts of those they could identify as being involved. Much more savvy people than I are spending a lot of time looking at that. Jess Marin Davis is a good security analyst to follow on this matter.

I don’t know what the reality of the situation was in terms of trying to procure tow services, or how critical the EA was to essentially conscript towing capacity. In the end, most of the trucks turned and ran at the eleventh hour and fifty ninth minute - I remember nervously watching some start up and wondering if they were going to drive at us or back away - but the sudden caving of most of the parked truck drivers could not have been predicted or relied upon. I don’t know if the necessary kit and capabilities could have been brought to bear otherwise, except for calling in CAF for its wreckers. CAF aid to civil power vs EA to compel tow services is an ugly optics dilemma I wouldn’t personally want to have to contend with. Given the now proven utility of parked trucks as acts of criminal mischief in the course of a disruptive protest, I think it would be wise for the province and some of the cities to quietly maintain a modest inventory of heavy wreckers.

There will be a lot of wrangling and gnashing of teeth over how much information regarding the Emergencies Act decision is shared; how; when; and in which forum. I don’t know enough at present to be able to give an informed take on what information should be public and what should not. And of course, we know some of what we don’t know (E.g., without a doubt there was security intelligence informing the response, but we don’t know what), and there’s also ‘don’t know’ that we don’t know we don’t know. Most of it will eventually come out in the wash, I expect. I’m sure everyone with strong feelings on the matter will have their minds made up in time for the next election.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 May 2022)

Remember the semi-secret protestor head quarters off a few kilometers away in some parking lot with scary organized looking big men and defensive perimeters?

Very nefarious. I was expecting a violent siege and shootout. Luckily that just disappeared.


----------



## Booter (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> I can’t and haven’t spoken to anything close to all of it- just that there was no lack of enforcement authorities. From the moment the first car blocked the first street, police had all necessary legal authority to physically remove it and to charge the driver. The situation escalated to criminal mischief very quickly, but police were super lenient in enforcing this.
> 
> The emergencies act allowed for other things, particularly financial ‘sanctions’, for lack of a better term, and compelling banks to act against the accounts of those they could identify as being involved. Much more savvy people than I are spending a lot of time looking at that. Jess Marin Davis is a good security analyst to follow on this matter.
> 
> ...


That’s my mistake then. I apologize. I assumed there was a nuance I wasn’t tracking and I thought you had said something.


----------



## QV (27 May 2022)

“Criminal mischief, criminal mischief” 

“If you repeat it, if you say it louder, if that’s your talking point, people will totally believe it!”

Even the judge ruling on the honking said the peaceful protests could continue. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.  

Hey, did we get to the bottom of the domestic terror attack on Coastal Gaslink yet?


----------



## brihard (27 May 2022)

QV said:


> “Criminal mischief, criminal mischief”
> 
> “If you repeat it, if you say it louder, if that’s your talking point, people will totally believe it!”
> 
> Even the judge ruling on the honking said the peaceful protests could continue. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.


Yes, mischief, S.430 Criminal Code. Quite a lot of people are presently before the courts charged with exactly that offence arising out of the convoy protests. Most of the cases were not held for bail, so they’re still a long way from any meaningful court action, which means those of you playing from home won’t have heard of them yet- but there are quite a number of those files, and crown’s moving forward with prosecution. You could probably benefit from a bit more familiarity with basic criminal offences and the elements thereof.

Your reference to the judicial commentary about lawful protest in the civil injunction merely shows that you’re cherry-picking what you want to hear. You can commit criminal acts in the course of activity that was otherwise lawful before and after the discrete criminal acts. The judge’s comment in no way shape or form means or even suggests that criminal activity was not also taking place.

Criminal matters, of course, tend to take quite some time to move through the courts. At present the only judicial proceedings that have given us meaningful insight on the criminal side have been bail hearings. What we can infer from those is limited, but it’s evident that the courts are taking criminal charges seriously.

I’m not sure whether you’ve ever been to the nation’s capital, but downtown Ottawa is populated by tens of thousands of normal working people just like you or I, or your family or friends. After the first few blocks south from Wellington, it’s largely apartments and houses. A lot of them are paycheck to paycheck- not this “upper crust” that you imagine as some weird political caste dominating downtown housing.

I’ll make sure to let you know in due course as we begin to see files move fully through court to the point of verdicts.


----------



## Good2Golf (27 May 2022)

QV said:


> Even the judge ruling on the honking said the peaceful protests could continue. Protests are meant to be inconvenient. The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.


Nice try.   

Peaceful doesn’t mean restricting the rights of other.  Peaceful means holding signs on Parliament Hill and perhaps using a reasonable volume loudspeaker during the day, and not bullying any people who also want to access Parliament Hill’s grounds, or blocking travel on Wellington or other streets. 

If a group of protestors chose to Kumbaya and sit themselves across the 401 somewhere in the GTA, quiet or not, that would restrict rights of others and would not be lawful, nor would it likely be considered peaceful as it would be intended to incite.  One would think TPS (and the OPP) would clear it out pretty quickly.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

QV said:


> The upper crust of downtown Ottawa and the mandarins working there aren’t used to being inconvenienced like that and were likely shocked and highly offended to see the level of support against the mandates etc.


I live in downtown Ottawa.  I'm a junior officer.  There is a halfway house a block from me, and a bunch of low-income housing a few blocks away.  Downtown Bank street (not far from me) is not full of "upper crust" folks.

The rich folks in Ottawa do not live downtown - they live in the Glebe or areas where there are actual detached houses with decent sized lots.

What shocked and offended us was the occupiers (and yes, after the first weekend, when it become a block party with horns and a god damned _pig roast_ a block away from my unit) harassing the retail workers and the low/middle-class folks trying to go about their business.  

What shocked and offended us were the folks on the War Memorial.  

What shocked and offended us were folks bringing their babies and pets to a place that was a sustained 110db (someone checked) for weeks at a time.  Those kids and pets will have lasting hearing damage.

There were a core group of people actually about the mandates, although that fractured into "I hate Trudeau for whatever reason", and a much larger "weekend party" crowd that came to drink on the street and piss everywhere.  How do I know this?  I lived a block away from two of those "support camps" and literally saw that happening for a month.

But I guess I'm upper crust now.


----------



## Remius (27 May 2022)

I explained this when it this was happening when people thought it was the “upper crust” and mandarins being inconvenienced  by this.  It wasn’t.  It was people in many cases already struggling.  

Center Town (especially the west part) is a poor neighbourhood.  

The upper crust mostly don’t live there and the mandarins have been largely working from home.  And even then most don’t have offices in that area.

The frustrating part is the city officials did little to nothing to help these people.  They utterly failed them.  I care a bit less about the criminal charges pending (although I hope Justice is done) and care more about the civil case.  I hope the class action suit gives everyone everything they deserve.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 May 2022)

Remius said:


> I hope the class action suit gives everyone everything they deserve.


Like new city officials and police?

Probably a bigger chance of those 20 defendants handing over $306M plus interest plus legal costs.


----------



## Remius (27 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Like new city officials and police?
> 
> Probably a bigger chance of those 20 defendants handing over $306M plus interest plus legal costs.


We already have a new chief and by all accounts he’s much better than the last one. 

We have an election coming this fall so hopefully that takes care of the city council issue.

Assets and funds have been seized pending litigation.  It won’t be 306 million by any means but I hope they squeeze as much as they can out of them.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Assets and funds have been seized pending litigation.  It won’t be 306 million by any means but I hope they squeeze as much as they can out of them.


We can only hope they have their homes repossessed.

Too bad the former chief of police wasn't included. I read he got quite the decent severence package.


----------



## lenaitch (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> . . . I think it would be wise for the province and some of the cities to quietly maintain a modest inventory of heavy wreckers.


[/QUOTE]

The Ontario government has already announced that they are funding heavy wreckers for the OPP.  I'm not sure how well that will go.  Another thing to designate and train special operators, hours committed to maintain some level of currency, heavy equipment maintenance, storage etc. (where do you haul a seized rig - or several - if you don't want to involve a private operator?), etc.  I would assume the designated members won't really need technical recovery training, just basic 'hook and haul'.  I would prefer they go the the MTO and designate some operators as special constables.  The MTO has more of a 'big truck' culture.

It reminds me of a mid-70s crippling snowstorm, after which they bought several tracked snow buses.  They pretty much sat and rusted until they were disposed of several years later.


----------



## Furniture (27 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> *We can only hope they have their homes repossessed.*
> 
> Too bad the former chief of police wasn't included. I read he got quite the decent severence package.


Exactly, show those evil working class western scum what happens when they mess with the peace of good people in downtown Ottawa. 

What could possibly go wrong with hundreds of dispossessed people pissed off at the government, feeling like they have nothing left to lose?


----------



## Remius (27 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> Exactly, show those evil working class western scum what happens when they mess with the peace of good people in downtown Ottawa.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong with hundreds of dispossessed people pissed off at the government, feeling like they have nothing left to lose?


Consequences of one’s actions.  It’s simple.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  It’s a civil case between citizens.  The courts will decide one way or another like any other one.   Or deals will be struck between plaintiffs an defendants.


----------



## brihard (27 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Consequences of one’s actions.  It’s simple.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  It’s a civil case between citizens.  The courts will decide one way or another like any other one.   Or deals will be struck between plaintiffs an defendants.


The plaintiffs lawyered up quite capably. Paul Champ is excellent, and doesn’t take BS cases. I cannot speak to the quality of whatever counsel have been retained by various defendants. I suspect the quality… won’t be as impressive.

We exist in a society of laws, and laws will determine how this all plays out on both the criminal and civil side. It’s along process, but it’s also a pretty inexorable system once it gets to the point of verdicts being returned.


----------



## Furniture (28 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Consequences of one’s actions.  It’s simple.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  It’s a civil case between citizens.  The courts will decide one way or another like any other one.   Or deals will be struck between plaintiffs an defendants.


Yeah, fair... It's not like the government of the country froze one sides accounts or anything. 

It doesn't matter what law you choose to shelter behind when potentially hundreds of people are made homeless, unemployable, and unwelcome, then decide to take it out on the country that they feel screwed them. 

After WWII Germany and Japan weren't rebuilt by vengeance, they were rebuilt by forgiveness... WWII was the result of the winners of WWI being vengeful.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (28 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> What could possibly go wrong with hundreds of dispossessed people pissed off at the government, feeling like they have nothing left to lose?



I mean if they're gonna make that big a fuss, either put their money where their mouths are and go full guerilla, or shut it.  There are even some good books they can read if they need a guide.  

Judging by some of the Court testimony though, reading comprehension might be lacking?

Pat King doesn't really give off the best Che Guevara vibes.


----------



## GK .Dundas (28 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean if they're gonna make that big a fuss, either put their money where their mouths are and go full guerilla, or shut it.  There are even some good books they can read if they need a guide.
> 
> Judging by some of the Court testimony though, reading comprehension might be lacking?
> 
> Pat King doesn't really give off the best Che Guevara vibes.


And as I recall from some of my lecturers Guevara  was both a psychopath and a bit of an idiot..


----------



## Furniture (28 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean if they're gonna make that big a fuss, either put their money where their mouths are and go full guerilla, or shut it.  There are even some good books they can read if they need a guide.
> 
> Judging by some of the Court testimony though, reading comprehension might be lacking?
> 
> Pat King doesn't really give off the best Che Guevara vibes.


I won't pretend that even 50% of them are actually capable of being a problem for the "good" tax paying citizens of Canada.

My point is, we have seen increasing polarization among Upper and Lower class Canadians. Upper Class Canadians count on words to keep them safe, Lower Class Canadians have just seen their government turn on them... Go to the thread about Victoria, even "average" Canadians are losing faith in the government to keep them safe.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 May 2022)

We live in a society of laws, but the laws have to be applied equally/impartially/proportionately in order to have rule of law.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2022)

QV said:


> Hey, did we get to the bottom of the domestic terror attack on Coastal Gaslink yet?



Great question, I completely forgot about that organized and armed attack on a remote position. Like a military raid. 

Seems strange something like that would just be a blip then fall off the radar. 

My guess is that it's because there isn't even a tenuous omg Nazis-white supremacist angle for the LPC to get people worked up about.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> My guess is that it's because there isn't even a tenuous omg Nazis-white supremacist angle for the LPC to get people worked up about.


Yeah…I mean, people don’t do criminal things for the environment…


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 May 2022)

Is that a young Mathew McConaughey ?


----------



## Good2Golf (28 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is that a young Mathew McConaughey ?


Nope.

Hint:  An ecoterrorist serving Member of Parliament.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 May 2022)

If that hint isn’t enough, I’ll narrow it down. 

A Member of Her Majesty’s Privy Council.


----------



## Remius (28 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> Yeah, fair... It's not like the government of the country froze one sides accounts or anything.
> 
> It doesn't matter what law you choose to shelter behind when potentially hundreds of people are made homeless, unemployable, and unwelcome, then decide to take it out on the country that they feel screwed them.
> 
> After WWII Germany and Japan weren't rebuilt by vengeance, they were rebuilt by forgiveness... WWII was the result of the winners of WWI being vengeful.



You are comparing the trucker convoy fiasco to WW1 and WW2? 

Ok, I’ll play.  

In WW2 they still prosecuted those that committed crimes and broke the law.  They still are.

Reparations are still being paid by Germany and Japan paid financial reparations as well for its actions. 

So people accused of breaking laws are being pursued and charged.  And reparations are being sought.

Everyone will get their day in court. 

It’s called JUSTICE.  Not vengeance.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah…I mean, people don’t do criminal things for the environment…
> 
> 
> View attachment 71054





Good2Golf said:


> Nope.
> 
> Hint:  An ecoterrorist serving Member of Parliament.





Good2Golf said:


> If that hint isn’t enough, I’ll narrow it down.
> 
> A Member of Her Majesty’s Privy Council.



Sorry was a poor attempt at humor...


----------



## Remius (28 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sorry was a poor attempt at humor...



I chuckled lol.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sorry was a poor attempt at humor...


That's the face of a true believer.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sorry was a poor attempt at humor...


Is was Super Drole!  I enjoyed the journey with you, HT! 😉


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah…I mean, people don’t do criminal things for the environment…



Right?


Just to reiterate my own position I personally think the tuckers blaring their horns should have been considered assault and they should have been thrown in cuffs on day 1. Others may not agree and that's cool.


But check out the write up from that GasLink site attack. Not being conspiracy guy here but imagine the governments reaction if the assailants would have been wearing proud boy ballcaps.



> RCMP are investigating what is being described as a *“organized violent attack”* on pipeline workers, police and equipment at a Coastal GasLink drilling site near the Morice River in northern British Columbia.
> 
> Mounties were called for reports that *20 masked people, some of them wielding axes, *had* attacked security guards* at the work site near Houston, B.C., shortly after midnight Thursday, *smashing the windows of their vehicle.*
> 
> ...




Military style raid.


We're talking about justice being done in Ottawa and guilty people being taken to task for their actions. What about justice for Canadians who were attacked with axes and flare guns?


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 May 2022)

> It’s called JUSTICE.  Not vengeance.



Justice would be getting what one deserves.  Trivial crime, trivial penalty.


----------



## Remius (28 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Justice would be getting what one deserves.  Trivial crime, trivial penalty.


Has anyone been convicted yet? And if so what did they get?  I hope they get what they deserve.  If it’s a slap on the wrist and a fine so be it.  If the civil case demands financial compensation so be it. 

As far as I know no one got life in prison. Each case will be judged on its own merits.


----------



## Remius (28 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Right?
> 
> 
> Just to reiterate my own position I personally think the tuckers blaring their horns should have been considered assault and they should have been thrown in cuffs on day 1. Others may not agree and that's cool.
> ...



I suggest then maybe a thread on that.  It’s two different incidents that are not unrelated.  

You are making assumptions that nothing is being done.  I would suggest that the gas link pipeline issue is far more complex and far more complicated.  It’s also not a civil case. Far from it.  Although I suppose gaslink could sue for damages once they know who is responsible. 

THAT case crosses international borders and has 40 or so investigators on it last I heard.  They have suspects but my guess is they are trying to get as much iron clad evidence that they can to convict.  That takes time.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s two different incidents that are not unrelated.



My argument here is the blatent difference in response from the government. 



> You are making assumptions that nothing is being done.



I could chose my words better yes. I'm sure the police are investigating. I suspect the complete silence and lack of GAF from the government doesn't have to do with them caring about the sensitive nature of the investigation. 


Do you think the government would have been as quiet about it had there been proud boys present? Anyhow I'll get back on topic.


----------



## Remius (28 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> My argument here is the blatent difference in response from the government.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The government has made statements on it,  so it isn’t (wasn’t) complete silence on the issue. 

If proud boys had been present we would know they were proud boys so could comment on it.  Right now suspects in this case are still murky and not quite ready to be identified likely due to evidence still being gathered.  

The convoy had identifiable people.  Some with nebulous histories (ie Pat King).  Also the convoy leaders and plenty of membres of the Conservative party made sure to use social media, media etc etc to put themselves front and centre.  If you call for the overthrow of the government (and then change your tune) it will elicit a response.   

Clearly the eco terrorists at gaslink were better organised and planned far better to cover their tracks than the convoy types did.  But they were both conducting different things for different reasons.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (28 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If that hint isn’t enough, I’ll narrow it down.
> 
> A Member of Her Majesty’s Privy Council.


I mean can't blame him, he ran and the people elected him.  That says more about them than it does about him 😄



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/steven-guilbeault-environment-activist-1.6227337
		


He is also very truthful that he has no 'secret agenda' 

Nope, I would say his agenda is well known 😉


----------



## Remius (28 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean can't blame him, he ran and the people elected him.  That says more about them than it does about him 😄
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the guy scaled a few buildings?  He was charged with mischief, convicted and paid reparations for the 50K the CN Tower estimated it cost them. 

So even the enviro activists get held to account.  Break the law face the consequences and pay damages to the aggrieved party.  I don’t know why some can’t see that with the convoy types facing the exact same thing for their actions.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean can't blame him, he ran and the people elected him.  That says more about them than it does about him 😄
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree…on the micro-level, absolutely.  On the macro-level, it makes for solid I&W about the intention of the government.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 May 2022)

> And if so what did they get?



Should have written more tickets.

Ordinarily I'd expect something like this to be news while it's happening and then blow over - whatever happens to the malefactors, few people pay any attention.  What I'm seeing is more than a few people possessed by an unhealthy Argus Filch desire to see some punishment.  The real underlying crime is more like lese majeste.


----------



## Remius (6 Jun 2022)

Good article on the “convoyists” in the G&M









						They came. They idled. They left. What have convoy protesters been doing since they went home?
					

The spectacle in the capital seized us, then it was gone. Ian Brown goes west to visit the protesters at home




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2022)

* FUREY: The Emergencies Act inquiry isn't looking good for Trudeau*


> Things are looking rough for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau when it comes to how the Emergencies Act inquiry might unfold.
> 
> The past month or so has brought out a number of clarifications about what exactly transpired during this winter’s freedom convoy and what went on behind the scenes before and during the controversial invoking of the Act. And many of them expose how a lot of what the federal Liberal government was leading people to believe was just outright falsehoods.







__





						FUREY: The Emergencies Act inquiry isn't looking good for Trudeau
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> * FUREY: The Emergencies Act inquiry isn't looking good for Trudeau*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I certainly hope Mr Furey isn't insinuating that a Liberal Government would lie, especially  one led by a Trudeau. 

I did love the hissy fit reference lol


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I certainly hope Mr Furey isn't insinuating that a Liberal Government would lie, especially  one led by a Trudeau.
> 
> I did love the hissy fit reference lol


My favorite part:

"Will it work again? Is there a limit to the number of times Canadians will let themselves be duped? We shall see."

My answer - probably if the CPC can't get its house in order.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2022)

> The Liberals insisted that they only brought in the Act after police requested it (my colleague Lorne Gunter found at least six examples of Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino making this claim). However, at committee the heads of both the Ottawa police and RCMP said they never made such a request.




I think we solved this riddle.


* Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister*


			Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister
		



I'll go out on a limb and suggest Lametti misunderstood too. Lots of innocent misunderstandings to go around. 



> > Justice Minister David Lametti’s claim that malicious foreigners were funding the convoy. But testimony revealed that no level of law enforcement ever told them this. Finance Canada even testified that the convoy was mostly supported by small donations from thousands of average Canadians.


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I think we solved this riddle.
> 
> 
> * Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister*
> ...


Well, there we go then. Honest mistakes. Ooopsie, nothing to see here, and we will _totally_ do better in the future.


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Jun 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Well, there we go then. Honest mistakes. Ooopsie, nothing to see here, and we will _totally_ do better in the future.


----------



## QV (8 Jun 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Well, there we go then. Honest mistakes. Ooopsie, nothing to see here, and we will _totally_ do better in the future.


So was freezing private citizens' bank accounts just an honest mistake too then? That's one helluva a mistake... I'm not looking forward to the next "oopsie" by this open and transparent democratic government.


----------



## FSTO (8 Jun 2022)

Liar liar pants on fire.  



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534528096828809217


----------



## QV (8 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> Liar liar pants on fire.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534528096828809217


That is a thread for the ages.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> Liar liar pants on fire.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534528096828809217


Uh oh, better kick the gun control ball a little.
Wouldn't hurt to repost the images of that dude holding up a nazi flag either.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> * Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister*
> 
> 
> Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister


There was a line from the movie "In The Loop" covering this sort of situation ....


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> * Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister*
> 
> 
> Mendicino ‘misunderstood’ in saying police asked for Emergencies Act: deputy minister
> ...


I did not misunderstand his words when he said "if your politics disagrees with ours we'll freeze your bank accounts" or words to that effect. 
That's a statement I'd conjure up in the next election if I were running as a CPC candidate.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> Liar liar pants on fire.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1534528096828809217



That's the kind of twittering that gets one Clinton'd me thinks...


----------



## QV (8 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I did not misunderstand his words when he said "if your politics disagrees with ours we'll freeze your bank accounts" or words to that effect.
> That's a statement I'd conjure up in the next election if I were running as a CPC candidate.


And Freeland's juvenile giggling during her presser about the enactment of the EA and freezing of bank accounts should give everyone a glimpse into her soul.


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> So was freezing private citizens' bank accounts just an honest mistake too then? That's one helluva a mistake... I'm not looking forward to the next "oopsie" by this open and transparent democratic government.


Y'know, you might want to learn a little something about tone and sarcasm in a post before you go off dribbling at the mouth like a lobotomite over it. follow me for other not-looking-like-a-goof tips.


----------



## QV (9 Jun 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Y'know, you might want to learn a little something about tone and sarcasm in a post before you go off dribbling at the mouth like a lobotomite over it. follow me for other not-looking-like-a-goof tips.


I gathered you were criticizing the LPC with your sarcasm, like I was. Was I mistaken?


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Jun 2022)

No, you didn't. You gathered I was making excuses for them and took a shot.  Wrong weapon, wrong target.


----------



## QV (9 Jun 2022)

Wrong. But do go on and tell me more about what I think.


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> Wrong. But do go on and tell me more about what I think.


No, I'm done with you, carry on.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jun 2022)

LILLEY UNLEASHED: "The Trudeau gov't caught lying again about the emergencies act"​






Up next, Mr Mendicino will be explaining how Canadian gun owners asked the Trudeau government to ban handguns.


----------



## Remius (10 Jun 2022)

Not sure how mendencino can stay on after this.


----------



## FSTO (10 Jun 2022)

Globe and Mail has guns out (pun intended) for Mendocino's explainations









						Opinion: If Marco Mendicino misled Parliament, he has to go
					

Marco Mendicino repeatedly stated in the House that the government had received advice from law enforcement to invoke the Emergencies Act. The Liberals have now shifted to saying police asked for the ‘tools’ contained in the Act




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




"If the Trudeau Liberals were trying to convince people they had something to hide with regard to the decision to invoke the federal Emergencies Act, they could hardly do a better job. "


----------



## FSTO (10 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure how mendencino can stay on after this.


Him and the Justice Minister, they both have been singing from the same songbook.
But nothing will happen because, and I heard this from Supriya Dwivedi and Kathleen Monk, that even if law enforcement did not ask for the EA, that the locals who lived near the Hill were screaming for action was reason enough to enact the EA.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jun 2022)

People need reminding that EA is for "necessary", not "helpful/convenient/expedient".


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure how mendencino can stay on after this.


Easy…’apologize’


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jun 2022)

Makes you wonder what secret OICs, if any, were enacted during the Emergency Act. The Emergency Act that the police asked for...

A suspicious sort might even suggest the government shit the bed on purpose at the onset of the protests in order to set the stage for enacting the EA.

Of course that's just conspiracy nut talk. We clearly don't have a reason not to trust this government.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Of course that's just conspiracy nut talk. We clearly don't have a reason not to trust this government.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> Globe and Mail has guns out (pun intended) for Mendocino's explainations
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More detail via The Line








						Matt Gurney: Misleading the public is bad, even if you're a Liberal
					

From guns to the Emergencies Act, the public safety minister owes Canadians better than lies and evasion.




					theline.substack.com
				





Jarnhamar said:


> ... Of course that's just conspiracy nut talk. We clearly don't have a reason not to trust this government.


Just ask them, right?


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure how mendencino can stay on after this.


You mean Marco Pinocchio?


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> More detail via The Line
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ask for it in writing  





I thought this was a pretty good comment.
Rex Murphy: For the sake of his integrity, Marco Mendicino should resign​


> Mendicino, the minister of public safety, testified many times that the police forces had requested him to bring in the Emergencies Act.
> They did not.
> By their own testimony.
> 
> ...




Maybe I was too harsh (read: wrong) criticizing senior leaders in the CAF for taking responsibility for their actions. For us it seems like it should be a professional standard. 
In Ottawa politicians taking accountability is both a unicorn and an albatross.


----------



## PuckChaser (11 Jun 2022)

Mendocino is going to get thrown under the bus by Trudeau, media is just helping set that stage now. They'll let Trudeau skate away again, even though this was wholly his decision to use the Emergencies Act inappropriately, not a single cabinet minister on a breakaway.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Jun 2022)

Dont want to start a new thread in case it's a non-story.....









						Parliament Hill area reopened after investigation of ‘suspicious incident,’ no threat to public safety
					

Ottawa police said on Twitter that “no public safety threat” had been identified.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## lenaitch (11 Jun 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Dont want to start a new thread in case it's a non-story.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's Saturday - who would be there?  Security and Bob the cleaner?  Have they even started up tours again?


----------



## Remius (11 Jun 2022)

Turns out it may have been nothing.  Everything is reopen and no threat has been identified. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/parliament-evacuated-wellington-closed-for-police-action-1.6485759


----------



## brihard (11 Jun 2022)

From Mercedes Stephenson at Global:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535712538993643520
She tends to have good sources and a consistently good nose for bullshit. I’ll be interested to see info come out over the next day or two.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jun 2022)

Excellent and completely non suspicious timing.


----------



## Remius (11 Jun 2022)

Possible threat thwarted maybe.  I guess we’ll see when it it becomes more public.


----------



## brihard (11 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Excellent and completely non suspicious timing.


I believe that OPS responded to something they had to consider serious and credible until proven otherwise. I don’t believe the entire investigation into whatever took place today is all done, or that we’ve likely heard the last word on this.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> I believe that OPS responded to something they had to consider serious and credible until proven otherwise. I don’t believe the entire investigation into whatever took place today is all done, or that we’ve likely heard the last word on this.



I'm just taking shots at low hanging fruit. The 'hey look over there' timing is funny but I think you're right; and Ottawa is full of crazies.

You can bet if there is any angle to capitalize on this it'll be launched like a flair.


----------



## Remius (11 Jun 2022)

Looks like 2 people of interest and 2 vehicles have been located.


----------



## brihard (12 Jun 2022)

Global is now reporting a “‘major’ national security investigation” resulting from a bomb scare, and that it originated with a tip from CBSA.









						‘Major’ national security investigation underway into Parliament Hill explosives scare  | Globalnews.ca
					

Multiple sources tell Global News that Canada’s border security agency raised concerns about potential explosives in vehicles near Parliament Hill.




					globalnews.ca
				




Might be worth splitting today‘s events into their own thread.


----------



## Journeyman (12 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Of course that's just conspiracy nut talk. We clearly don't have a reason not to trust this government.


If you feel like a Sunday tangent, look into Bill C-11. 
It gives the CRTC unprecedented regulatory authority to monitor all online audiovisual content. The power extends to penalizing content creators and platforms that fail to comply. Essentially, the government gets to decide, through financial penalties and regulating our algorithmic recommendations, what we can search and see online.

To push this through, the government has moved to end debate and vote this week on non-published (secret) amendments.









						What’s wrong with Bill C-11? An FAQ
					

Common questions and answers on Bill C-11




					openmedia.org


----------



## Remius (12 Jun 2022)

Journeyman said:


> If you feel like a Sunday tangent, look into Bill C-11.
> It gives the CRTC unprecedented regulatory authority to monitor all online audiovisual content. The power extends to penalizing content creators and platforms that fail to comply. Essentially, the government gets to decide, through financial penalties and regulating our algorithmic recommendations, what we can search and see online.
> 
> To push this through, the government has moved to end debate and vote this week on non-published (secret) amendments.
> ...


Perhaps a different thread for this discussion?  I would contribute but seems we may be derailing this one.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ask for it in writing
> 
> View attachment 71311


Yup -- another reason I suspect he'd be happier stirring the pot than being in the wheelhouse.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> I guess we’ll see when it it becomes more public.


----------



## Remius (12 Jun 2022)

here we go…









						Parliament Hill explosives scare appears based on a bad tip: sources  | Globalnews.ca
					

Heavily armed police searched two vehicles near Parliament Hill and detained two individuals, but concerns about explosives appear to have been overblown.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## brihard (12 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> here we go…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Do you trust another law enforcement agency and national security partner to do the best they can at passing on timely and reliable info and take it at face value, at the risk of it being an embarrassing nothing? Or do you treat all such information with heavy skepticism at the risk of being wrong in an assumption about a false negative, and The Thing Happens and people get hurt or killed on your watch? The knives have been out lately for police services that are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to have responded inadequately to potentially credible information about violent threats.

I don’t have an answer. I just know the decisions have to be made in the moment with the information immediately at hand.

I’m glad nobody got hurt and that in the end nothing happened.


----------



## Remius (12 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Do you trust another law enforcement agency and national security partner to do the best they can at passing on timely and reliable info and take it at face value, at the risk of it being an embarrassing nothing? Or do you treat all such information with heavy skepticism at the risk of being wrong in an assumption about a false negative, and The Thing Happens and people get hurt or killed on your watch? The knives have been out lately for police services that are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to have responded inadequately to potentially credible information about violent threats.
> 
> I don’t have an answer. I just know the decisions have to be made in the moment with the information immediately at hand.
> 
> I’m glad nobody got hurt and that in the end nothing happened.


I wasn’t criticizing.  I’m glad it was a nothing burger and I am glad they took every precaution to reach that conclusion.


----------



## Weinie (12 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Do you trust another law enforcement agency and national security partner to do the best they can at passing on timely and reliable info and take it at face value, at the risk of it being an embarrassing nothing? Or do you treat all such information with heavy skepticism at the risk of being wrong in an assumption about a false negative, and The Thing Happens and people get hurt or killed on your watch? The knives have been out lately for police services that are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to have responded inadequately to potentially credible information about violent threats.
> 
> I don’t have an answer. I just know the decisions have to be made in the moment with the information immediately at hand.
> 
> I’m glad nobody got hurt and that in the end nothing happened.


Actually, damned (and rightly so) if you _*don't.*_ While this might be perceived as an embarrassment for some folks, I would much rather they err on the side of caution. As well, hopefully CBSA is not pegged as the "Chicken Little."


----------



## brihard (12 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> I wasn’t criticizing.  I’m glad it was a nothing burger and I am glad they took every precaution to reach that conclusion.


Yup, I know- sorry if it seemed like I was in any way critical of your post. I know you to be very fair minded.



Weinie said:


> Actually, damned (and rightly so) if you _*don't.*_ While this might be perceived as an embarrassment for some folks, I would much rather they err on the side of caution. As well, hopefully CBSA is not pegged as the "Chicken Little."


Well yes, but I might be accused of professional bias if I asserted that myself. I meant more in the eyes of the public. I know how I and most here would go on this one.


----------



## lenaitch (13 Jun 2022)

Or some folks got caught doing a dry run.

I'm a little curious what Global means by "emergency call logs" and how they got access to them the day after an event.  As far as I know, OPS radio is now encrypted.


----------



## brihard (13 Jun 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Or some folks got caught doing a dry run.
> 
> I'm a little curious what Global means by "emergency call logs" and how they got access to them the day after an event.  As far as I know, OPS radio is now encrypted.


Sounds like sources/leaks to me.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Jun 2022)

More ... Message Massage from Team Red ....


> Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair and Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland say they didn't hear recommendations from police to enact the Emergencies Act ... "I'm not aware of any recommendation of law enforcement," Blair said Tuesday. "Quite frankly, this is a decision of government."  Blair said during the Freedom Convoy he spoke regularly with police who "were clearly having difficulties" restoring law and order, and that his role was to try to figure out why that was happening ... In response to Sen. Claude Carignan, who asked if Blair was aware of any such recommendation, he said, "Frankly I would have been quite surprised if the police had actually made a policy recommendation or asked for any legislative authority."  "I do not believe that would have been an appropriate thing for law enforcement to ask, and they did not ask," Blair said ...


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Jun 2022)

So now they must carefully thread the needle between “No, the police did NOT ask for the EA” and “We enacted the EA based on information provided by the CBC.”


----------



## brihard (15 Jun 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So now they must carefully thread the needle between “No, the police did NOT ask for the EA” and “We enacted the EA based on information provided by the CBC.”
> 
> View attachment 71390


That’s in line with my theory from a few weeks back.



brihard said:


> I suspect a careful look will find that police didn’t ask for “the emergencies act”, specifically, but rather that certain needs and gaps were identified and articulated. I would guess that police said “here’s what we have / need to be able to do in order to resolve this”, and the government then looked at its options for how that could be achieved.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

So basically they attempted to kill a fly with a bazooka ?


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So basically they attempted to kill a fly with a bazooka ?


With everyone playing Dodge The Ball around who said "bazooka" out loud first ....


----------



## Spencer100 (15 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> With everyone playing Dodge The Ball around who said "bazooka" out loud first ....


Even with many different theories and conspiracy ideas......why may just go down be to "My dad did it so I can too"  

See I'm a big boy now.  It just maybe that simple.


----------



## Remius (15 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Even with many different theories and conspiracy ideas......why may just go down be to "My dad did it so I can too"
> 
> See I'm a big boy now.  It just maybe that simple.


That thought did cross my mind…


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So basically they attempted to kill a fly with a bazooka ?


What else do you kills flys with?


----------



## Haggis (15 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Even with many different theories and conspiracy ideas......why may just go down be to "My dad did it so I can too"
> 
> See I'm a big boy now.  It just maybe that simple.





Remius said:


> That thought did cross my mind…


Mine, too, back in February, to be honest.  Sometimes le Dauphin is as transparent as a scrotum in front of a lightbulb.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> ... may just go down be to "My dad did it so I can too"
> 
> See I'm a big boy now.  It just maybe that simple.


----------



## dapaterson (27 Jun 2022)

I am not a lawyer.  I'll just say, though, that if you're out on bail, and a bail condition is not to associate with someone, posing for pictures with them is probably not the best idea.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541583670183600128


----------



## brihard (27 Jun 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am not a lawyer.  I'll just say, though, that if you're out on bail, and a bail condition is not to associate with someone, posing for pictures with them is probably not the best idea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541583670183600128


No, it’s probably not.


----------



## Navy_Pete (27 Jun 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am not a lawyer.  I'll just say, though, that if you're out on bail, and a bail condition is not to associate with someone, posing for pictures with them is probably not the best idea.


but.... shares and likes!

Similarly, if you are going to get into a fight, and people are all standing around videoing it and posting it online, your chances of getting charged seem to be pretty high. Hard to settle things behind the old schoolhouse when some ass clown puts it on Instafacegram for re-tweets.


----------



## brihard (27 Jun 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> but.... shares and likes!
> 
> Similarly, if you are going to get into a fight, and people are all standing around videoing it and posting it online, your chances of getting charged seem to be pretty high. Hard to settle things behind the old schoolhouse when some ass clown puts it on Instafacegram for re-tweets.


Two adults can consent to a fight as long as there’s no bodily harm. Though the odds of that actually happening without further aggravating dumbassery is slim.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jun 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So now they must carefully thread the needle between “No, the police did NOT ask for the EA” and “We enacted the EA based on information provided by the CBC.”


Well they are the Ministry of "Goodthought"


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Jun 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am not a lawyer.  I'll just say, though, that if you're out on bail, and a bail condition is not to associate with someone, posing for pictures with them is probably not the best idea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541583670183600128


Yet real criminals - you remember those guys and girls that actually rob and hurt people - get Promise To Appear all the time with conditions , Then go and break them almost immediately.


----------



## OceanBonfire (27 Jun 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am not a lawyer.  I'll just say, though, that if you're out on bail, and a bail condition is not to associate with someone, posing for pictures with them is probably not the best idea.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1541583670183600128



Arrested:









						Ottawa convoy organizer Tamara Lich arrested in Alberta for alleged breach of bail conditions
					

Tamara Lich, one of the organizers of the Freedom Convoy, has been arrested in Alberta for alleged breach of bail conditions, CTV News has learned.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




And for Canada Day:



> ‘No warnings, no second chances,’ say mayor











						'There won't be occupiers': City of Ottawa, police prepared for Canada Day protests
					

City of Ottawa staff and the Ottawa Police Service are ensuring residents that planned protests on Canada Day will not devolve into the kind of occupation that residents endured this past winter.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jun 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Arrested:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent.

They seem to have learned alot since last time!


----------



## dimsum (28 Jun 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Excellent.
> 
> They seem to have learned alot since last time!


I see they view "Lessons Learned" the same way we do.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Jun 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Arrested:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope this applies to shitheads across the political/philosophical spectrum, but I suppose that's not who this warning was aimed at.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Yet real criminals - you remember those guys and girls that actually rob and hurt people - get Promise To Appear all the time with conditions , Then go and break them almost immediately.


How many of those post pix of themselves breaching conditions on social media, though?


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> How many of those post pix of themselves breaching conditions on social media, though?


Good point


----------



## Haggis (28 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> How many of those post pix of themselves breaching conditions on social media, though?


More than you'd think.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Jun 2022)

It is only a crime if your famous......like parole, if you made the newspaper you do 1/2 to 3/4 of your sentence,  if not, you're out in 1/6th.


----------



## Remius (28 Jun 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> It is only a crime if your famous......like parole, if you made the newspaper you do 1/2 to 3/4 of your sentence,  if not, you're out in 1/6th.


Or infamous.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2022)

Haggis said:


> More than you'd think.


I guess that's why they say the dumbest ones get caught first, then.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> How many of those post pix of themselves breaching conditions on social media, though?


Every single one of the “climate emergency/save the old growth” crowd….just sayin…


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Jun 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Every single one of the “climate emergency/save the old growth” crowd….just sayin…


…even ‘I’m an old growth tree, try to cut me down!’ guy…


----------



## QV (28 Jun 2022)

The federal government is obviously terrified at the level of support for and the potential for another "convoy".


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> The federal government is obviously terrified at the level of support for and the potential for another "convoy".


... or someone who's been told by the courts "don't do x until the case is done" doesn't understand the concept.


----------



## Quirky (28 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> The federal government is obviously terrified at the level of support for and the potential for another "convoy".


What if the orange shirt gang shows up in Ottawa to protest the criminal past of the country and it's murder of indigenous. Will they be allowed to hijack railroads and infrastructure without recourse?


----------



## QV (28 Jun 2022)

Quirky said:


> What if the orange shirt gang shows up in Ottawa to protest the criminal past of the country and it's murder of indigenous. Will they be allowed to hijack railroads and infrastructure without recourse?


If they do show up, I expect the EA enacted and personal bank accounts seized.


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> If they do show up, I expect the EA enacted and personal bank accounts seized.


Don't count on it. They blockaded rail lines - zero consequences. If they do occupy the Hill then expect statues of every PM to be torn down.


----------



## brihard (28 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> The federal government is obviously terrified at the level of support for and the potential for another "convoy".


Terrified? No. Simply very prepared for the possibility. There will not be a repeat of protesters being tolerated in illegally logjamming the city.

Lich allegedly violated bail conditions not to have contact with someone she appears to have been photographed in the company of. Given the care that was taken to perfect her bail plan, that, if true, is pretty blatant disregard of her bail conditions. That’ll get anyone arrested if the breach is alleged with evidence.

In any case, it’s now back to the court to sort out. She was given the opportunity to remain out of custody. If she chose behaviour that breaches those conditions, then she chose the consequences. Maybe she gets bail again, maybe she doesn’t.

Sucks to be the surety who put up $20k.


----------



## dimsum (28 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Sucks to be the surety who put up $20k.


Yup.

Something about fools and money...


----------



## brihard (28 Jun 2022)

According to the bought-and-paid-for media, it looks like the government is going to waive cabinet privilege on the documents and records they used to decide to invoke the Emergencies Act. Waiving that privilege is extremely rare. This will be fascinating. I would still expect national security redactions, but this’ll be something to see.









						Liberals agree to release cabinet documents to Emergencies Act inquiry - National | Globalnews.ca
					

According to the Public Order Emergency Commission, it is the fourth time in Canadian history that a government has decided to provide such access to a commission of inquiry.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> ... This will be fascinating. I would still expect national security redactions, but this’ll be something to see.


Even with the redactions, it'll be intriguing to see what gets thru.

Meanwhile, way to maintain the high ground ...


> One of the judges who presided over the court hearings of Freedom Convoy organizers is speaking out after receiving threats considered serious enough to require police intervention, according to information obtained by Radio-Canada and CBC.
> 
> The judge in question confirmed that supporters of the convoy from Canada and the United States sent several offensive messages, but the message that prompted police to react threatened their physical safety, the judge said ...


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Even with the redactions, it'll be intriguing to see what gets thru.
> 
> Meanwhile, way to maintain the high ground ...


I’m willing to wager that “not much” makes it through redaction…Trudeau et Cie., being the stalwart supporters of electoraly-promised transparency that they are, agree that ensuring visibility of some of the government’s most important decisions to date…

Remember, as ‘WE’ know 😉 , “past performance *may or may not imply future performance….”


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Jun 2022)

The previous CPC government under Harper weren't terribly transparent either, so a lot of performative demos for soundbites on both sides over the years.  I'm sure if the government flips there will be more of the same from whoever is in power.

Just wish they would stop pretending they will be different, when they are generally just differently scented piles of manure when in power.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Jun 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I’m willing to wager that “not much” makes it through redaction…Trudeau et Cie., being the stalwart supporters of electoraly-promised transparency that they are, agree that ensuring visibility of some of the government’s most important decisions to date…
> 
> Remember, as ‘WE’ know 😉 , “past performance *may or may not imply future performance….”
> View attachment 71693




Geez....

What happened to the good old days when media outlets curated teams of snitches throughout government so they could heartily contradict government posturing?


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jun 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> What happened to the good old days when media outlets curated teams of snitches throughout government so they could heartily contradict government posturing?


The reporters at higher levels still do.  Now, though, when MSM quotes "unnamed gov't sources" now, either 1)  folks believe them because confirmation bias, or 2)  folks don't believe them because they're just bureaucrats (perhaps even subverted to the whims of the ruling party, or at least being parochial & protecting their iron rice bowls).


----------



## brihard (29 Jun 2022)

The sort of redactions I’m speculating about would likely be S.38 Canada Evidence Act stuff- national security intelligence, etc. Even reporters’ snitches will generally be pretty carefully about stuff that’s legit classified. Actual intelligence product, etc. Though I would guess we’ll see some declassification of some portions of intelligence assessments that informed the decision.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jun 2022)

One down 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542299300641882112


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

Dude had a warrant out of Toronto, and vaulted the fence/barriers in front of a bunch of Parliamentary Protective Service. Bit of a dumb stunt to pull. My understanding is he was already known and recognized from some confrontations captured on video in February. All of this is open source.

There will be more. The rogues gallery began arriving today and a few insisted on making their presence known. They’re getting absolutely zero play from police or PPS. They get to choose whether they eff around. They don’t get to choose whether they find out.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (30 Jun 2022)

This time, the residents have already stated they will show no quarter to the protesters. The police nabbing these idiots first are probably for their own safety.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> This time, the residents have already stated they will* show no quarter* to the protesters.


Yea sure


----------



## rmc_wannabe (30 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea sure


tolerance, patience, understanding, etc. 

Pardon my hyperbole. Wasn't expecting someone to take me literally.


----------



## Remius (30 Jun 2022)

Sorry, but I was wondering as well where you were getting that from lol.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Jun 2022)

The Canada Day celebrations tomorrow will include a fly past and 2 minutes of silence at 0800 to mark the 106th anniversary of Beaumont Hamel. With the celebrations co-located at the War Museum this year, hope the Freedum crowd don't do a repeat of the War Memorial disrespect.

'There's nothing like it': A guide to Canada Day events in and around Ottawa


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Jun 2022)

Protests vs Protests.

PDF, see picture on pg 10.


----------



## Kilted (30 Jun 2022)

Four arrested as months-long march by anti-vaccine mandate soldier ends at National War Memorial
					

The event seemed non-violent as James Topp met with supporters for photographs. But soon after, police said they were responding to a 'situation' and made…




					nationalpost.com
				




Does anyone know if this person was 5F'd or not? If he was, he would no longer be legally considered to be a veteran.


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

Kilted said:


> Four arrested as months-long march by anti-vaccine mandate soldier ends at National War Memorial
> 
> 
> The event seemed non-violent as James Topp met with supporters for photographs. But soon after, police said they were responding to a 'situation' and made…
> ...



That’s not accurate at all. If you want a legal definition of “Veteran”, look to the Veterans Well Being Act. “Veteran” is simply defined as “a former member”. “Member”, in turn, is defined as “officer” or “non commissioned member” under the NDA.

You do not lose any legal status as a veteran for being 5Fed. 5F release items come with the notation “honourably released”. It just means you’re no longer particularly useful because of things within your control, not that you’re a disgrace.


----------



## Kilted (30 Jun 2022)

VAC defines a Veteran as "*Any former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who successfully underwent basic training and is honourably discharged."*

But if he was released under any category 1 or 2 he would be.


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

Kilted said:


> VAC defines a Veteran as "*Any former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who successfully underwent basic training and is honourably discharged."*
> 
> But if he was released under any category 1 or 2 he would be.


That’s also words on a webpage, not a legal definition.

The word “honourable” appears only once in the VWBA, with one linked clause in the Veterans Well Being Regulations. That one instance restricts the Education and Training Benefit to CAF members who were “honourably released”, which, yes, the regs define as release items 3, 4, and 5. But that limitation appears limited in scope to that one particular benefit. Dismissal from the forces for disciplinary reasons doesn’t appear to strip any legal status as a “veteran”, or eligibility for other benefits like income replacement.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> tolerance, patience, understanding, etc.
> 
> Pardon my hyperbole. Wasn't expecting someone to take me literally.


Whoops. I thought you were quoting something, my mistake.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> It just means you’re no longer particularly useful because of things within your control, not that you’re a disgrace.


Technically true but being 5F released still comes with the stigma that you're being kicked out of the military for being junk.


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Technically true but being 5F released still comes with the stigma that you're being kicked out of the military for being junk.


Yup. I was just being more tactful than that. I had initially used and then erased the word ‘suck’. I stuck to speaking to technicalities.


----------



## MJP (30 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Technically true but being 5F released still comes with the stigma that you're being kicked out of the military for being junk.


The end of the day it is still an honourable release.  Very few people would be able to make the distinction nor would anybody ever really ask, what item of category did you release under?


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jun 2022)

MJP said:


> The end of the day it is still an honourable release.  Very few people would be able to make the distinction nor would anybody ever really ask, what item of category did you release under?


That's true. I've never held people kicked out 5F as having an over abundance of common sense. I can imagine them using someone from the military as a character reference only to be told that said person was "kicked out 5F"



> *F - Unsuitable for Further Service.*
> _Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behavior or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces_



Not someone I would consider hiring.

Still, I'm sure a lot of people with 5F releases slip by and wow civilian employers with their veteran status.


----------



## MJP (30 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's true. I've never held people kicked out 5F as having an over abundance of common sense. I can imagine them using someone from the military as a character reference only to be told that said person was "kicked out 5F"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes but at the end of the day there are almost no employers asking what was your release item?  Considering the amount of people in the CAF that have no clue what release item means is means there is likely no impediment to people being gainfully employed once released.  Hell, many CAF folks think that a 5F means you can never work for the government again which is myth.


----------



## Remius (30 Jun 2022)

I’ve had many police recruiters call us about former members that apply to them and ask about their 5fs.  And some of those former members call to try and get that rectified.  Turns out some employers aren’t interested in our people that suck.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jun 2022)

Jimmy can probably get a job with some mercenary group, or something like Blackwater (now Xe Services) and that would probably suit his personality just fine.    And, yes, I do know him.


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

It’s time to put on clown shoes,
It’s time to pick a fight,
It’s time to end up under cops on the Muppet Show tonight!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542649827686699011


----------



## Remius (30 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s time to put on clown shoes,
> It’s time to pick a fight,
> It’s time to end up under cops on the Muppet Show tonight!
> 
> ...


I expect more of this…


----------



## Remius (30 Jun 2022)

Looks like 4 arrested.  Assaulting officers and of course one breach of bail conditions…

Play stupid games…


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> Looks like 4 arrested.  Assaulting officers and of course one breach of bail conditions…
> 
> Play stupid games…


Wild guess, I bet they saw someone breaching, went for them, and the fight was on.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Wild guess, I bet they saw someone breaching, went for them, and the fight was on.


I was going to ask “are some people stupid enough to believe they can tussle and push around cops and not end up eating pavement?”…but then I saw tall bald dude do exactly that…

“Here’s your prize!”


----------



## Remius (30 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Wild guess, I bet they saw someone breaching, went for them, and the fight was on.


That was my thought as well.


----------



## Remius (30 Jun 2022)

Just a personal opinion but Regardless of the cause, the NWM should never be place for protest or political activity.   

It’s becoming more and more a prop and a conflict area.  Sad.


----------



## Kilted (30 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> Just a personal opinion but Regardless of the cause, the NWM should never be place for protest or political activity.
> 
> It’s becoming more and more a prop and a conflict area.  Sad.


Perhaps we need to look at ways to make at building permanent walls around the plaza with gates that can be shut at specific times.  It shouldn't have to come to that, but if that is what it takes to protect it.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Jun 2022)

Kilted said:


> Perhaps we need to look at ways to make at building permanent walls around the plaza with gates that can be shut at specific times.  It shouldn't have to come to that, but if that is what it takes to protect it.


I would be very upset if it came to that, however the way we have behaved as a nation (some of us) may leave us no choice. 

Every time I visit Ottawa I am drawn there. And I swear I can see my grandfather in that memorial.


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2022)

Kilted said:


> Perhaps we need to look at ways to make at building permanent walls around the plaza with gates that can be shut at specific times.  It shouldn't have to come to that, but if that is what it takes to protect it.


No need for this. Almost all of the time the site is treated respectfully. Today’s tantrum theatrics are a gross aberration. Keeping the site open to the public and passers by outweighs the very rare time where some access control is called for.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Just a personal opinion but Regardless of the cause, the NWM should never be place for protest or political activity.
> 
> It’s becoming more and more a prop and a conflict area.  Sad.


Off topic and very, very personal opinion, but, since we are renovating the Parliament buildings anyway - and assuming, as I do, that the project I going to go _waaaaay_ over budget and finish years late - then maybe we could disinter the Unknown Soldier from the National War Memorial and place his tomb inside Centre Block, in the Hall of Honour.

First: it's an appropriate place - so is the War Memorial, I agree;

Second: access can be controlled - a lot like access to Westminster Abby (where the UK's Tomb is located) is controlled - but without charge;

Third: it takes the Unknown Soldier away from potential political protesters but makes the Tomb available to Canadians almost every day of the year for a reasonable time each day.


----------



## McG (1 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Just a personal opinion but Regardless of the cause, the NWM should never be place for protest or political activity.
> 
> It’s becoming more and more a prop and a conflict area.  Sad.


When your protest movement includes a very vocal _you should thank me for my service_ group of veterans, then the memorial becomes iconography that you can tactically leverage to support your protest identity branding.

Maybe the real problem is veterans using that branding as a tool for political influence.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> When your protest movement includes a very vocal _you should thank me for my service_ group of veterans, then the memorial becomes iconography that you can tactically leverage to support your protest identity branding.
> 
> Maybe the real problem is veterans using that branding as a tool for political influence.


This has happened before, in the 1920s, when large groups of veterans used their status as WW1 veterans to make demands (sometimes violently) from the Government of the day.

Some of it has got to do with entitled people, doing entitled stuff- no amount of “thank-you for your service” is ever enough for that crowd. Some of it comes from the Feds playing fast and loose with the social contract of looking after veterans (the “you broke them, you bought them” theory).

But I fully agree that the National War Memorial should be off limits everyone’s politics.


----------



## brihard (1 Jul 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Off topic and very, very personal opinion, but, since we are renovating the Parliament buildings anyway - and assuming, as I do, that the project I going to go _waaaaay_ over budget and finish years late - then maybe we could disinter the Unknown Soldier from the National War Memorial and place his tomb inside Centre Block, in the Hall of Honour.
> 
> First: it's an appropriate place - so is the War Memorial, I agree;
> 
> ...


I disagree, I like having it out on a major plaza where a lot of people stumble on it and take a few moments to pay respects and reflect. Putting it in Parliament would take it well off the beaten path.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> I disagree, I like having it out on a major plaza where a lot of people stumble on it and take a few moments to pay respects and reflect. Putting it in Parliament would take it well off the beaten path.


On the other hand, it might serve as a daily reminder to MPs as to the consequences of their decisions, if the tomb was in Centre Block…


----------



## Remius (1 Jul 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> On the other hand, it might serve as a daily reminder to MPs as to the consequences of their decisions, if the tomb was in Centre Block…


They already have the book of remembrance there and they turn the page every day with an actual ceremony every day to do it.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> They already have the book of remembrance there and they turn the page every day with an actual ceremony every day to do it.


I know, but that is off to the side in the tower.


----------



## dimsum (1 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> I disagree, I like having it out on a major plaza where a lot of people stumble on it and take a few moments to pay respects and reflect. Putting it in Parliament would take it well off the beaten path.


I agree with you. 

That area, looking north on Elgin street, seems to draw people to it.  I'm sure it's planned that way but tons of people (including me) just go towards the NWM and stop there for a second. 

I also make a point to stop by Cpl Cirillo's plaque on the SE end of the NWM site too, but that's just me.


----------



## McG (1 Jul 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


----------



## dimsum (1 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


They're the unknown soldiers?  

They spout off at every chance they get, using their real names.  That's the complete opposite of being "unknown".


----------



## brihard (1 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


What a loser.

Happily, it seems that so far today things are looking pretty good downtown. Some people yelling about Pat King in front of Parliament, but the protesters aren’t shaping up to be much of anything.

Needless to say, the promised noon arrest of PMJT did not, in fact, take place.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jul 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562
Looks like a lot of vets who can't let go of their former life/identity.

Is it entirely their doing? The government and businesses are quick to use the veteran brand for their own promotion (just like they do with Pride). 

If you put people up on a pedestal some of them will take it to heart.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Jul 2022)

Everyone conscripts others into their narratives.  Heck, we do it every time we refer to "punched above our weight" in WWI and WWII.


----------



## Remius (1 Jul 2022)

No one currently alive should compare themselves to the man in that tomb.  And certainly not for this current movement/protest.


----------



## dimsum (1 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Needless to say, the promised noon arrest of PMJT did not, in fact, take place.


Which nutjob promised that?




Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a lot of vets who can't let go of their former life/identity.


Probably sprinkled with some folks who are just calling themselves "vets" who have never served.  I somehow doubt the organizers did background checks on their supporters.


----------



## mariomike (1 Jul 2022)

I imagine the security bill will be pretty steep. 

Work OT on a Stat Holiday?  That's triple-time-and-a-half.


----------



## brihard (1 Jul 2022)

mariomike said:


> I imagine the security bill will be pretty steep.
> 
> Work OT on a Stat Holiday?  That's triple-time-and-a-half.


Nah, Ottawa, OPP, and RCMP make time and a half for working on a stat. It’s not super lucrative.


----------



## Remius (1 Jul 2022)

I’m sure they’d rather be chilling by the BBQ with a beer.


----------



## mariomike (1 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Nah, Ottawa, OPP, and RCMP make time and a half for working on a stat. It’s not super lucrative.



Guess it depends on the municipality. Ours was,



> If the employee works on a designated holiday, the employee will be paid two (2) times their regular rate for time so worked and in addition shall  be paid for a full day at their regular rate of pay.







Remius said:


> I’m sure they’d rather be chilling by the BBQ with a beer.



You could book off the next day and do that.


----------



## brihard (1 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m sure they’d rather be chilling by the BBQ with a beer.


Exactly why I explicitly did _not_ volunteer for OT this time. These chumps aren’t worth my time with family nor my enjoyment of a cold Creemore.


----------



## mariomike (1 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Exactly why I explicitly did _not_ volunteer for OT this time.



We could take the OT in pay, or lieu time. Your choice. Maybe Ottawa has the same agreement?  🤷‍♂️



> Employees shall be entitled, at their option, to receive pay or lieu time for each hour of overtime worked, at the appropriate overtime rate.



The point is, whether they take it in pay or lieu, and whatever their OT on a stat rate is in Ottawa, Freedom rally security costs must be pretty high.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


This IMO is pure garbage. Get a fricking life. Yes we served and I don't expect anything other than what I receive from CFSA or VAC. I do not expect huge discounts etc or people to grovel in front of me saying "we're not worthy". 

Absolutely disgusting self entitled jerks every one of them.


----------



## dimsum (1 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> This IMO is pure garbage. Get a fricking life. Yes we served and I don't expect anything other than what I receive from CFSA or VAC. I do not expect huge discounts etc or people to grovel in front of me saying "we're not worthy".
> 
> Absolutely disgusting self entitled jerks every one of them.


I'd want to know what the percentage of actual vets are in the crowd vs "supporters" just wanting attention.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


Interesting stretch of the definition of "unknown soldier"  


Jarnhamar said:


> ... Is it entirely their doing? The government and businesses are quick to use the veteran brand for their own promotion (just like they do with Pride).
> 
> If you put people up on a pedestal some of them will take it to heart.


Yeah, like with anything, some let it go to their heads, but I don't think paying LESS attention to veterans would improve things this way.  This protest is driven by hate of current management, but I suspect a lot of folks around here would be complaining if veterans are held in less esteem by any government or businesses.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Everyone conscripts others into their narratives.  Heck, we do it every time we refer to "punched above our weight" in WWI and WWII.


Yup - this from the 2019 yellow vest protests (source) ....


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Jul 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> This has happened before, in the 1920s, when large groups of veterans used their status as WW1 veterans to make demands (sometimes violently) from the Government of the day.



And in Germany, playing the veteran card helped Hitler rise to power.


----------



## RangerRay (1 Jul 2022)

dimsum said:


> Which nutjob promised that?


Standard freemen-on-the-land/sovereign citizen tactic. They like to give themselves powers through self-appointed “common law courts”, “peace officers/sheriffs” or some other made-up body, authority under the Magna Carta or brain fart that entered their pea-brain that day, to target whatever official happened to cross them. 

i.e. the same people that think that if enough people called the Governor General, she would dissolve Parliament and appoint them as government.


----------



## RangerRay (1 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


FFS…🤦‍♂️


----------



## Blackadder1916 (2 Jul 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562



A***hole.

Here's a veteran making a remarkable walk.









						'Walk of Gratitude': 100-year-old veteran in London, Ont. completes 100 mile walk for homeless vets
					

With his wife Joyce on his arm, Tom Hennessy left Victoria Park in London, Ont. to complete his 100-mile walk to raise money for homeless veterans.




					london.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Journeyman (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Yup - this from the 2019 yellow vest protests (source) ....
> View attachment 71764


Well, I never knew that.  Canada remains free because of school crosswalk guards.  🤔


----------



## GK .Dundas (2 Jul 2022)

One of the things these clowns seem to believe in is the odd concept that you can get people arrested for being unpopular.
They actually had a petition to have  Prime Minister Trudeau arrested for treason.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> One of the things these clowns seem to believe in is the odd concept that you can get people arrested for being unpopular.
> They actually had a petition to have  Prime Minister Trudeau arrested for treason.


C'mon, now - we KNOW that's not why people are _REALLY_ protesting, right? That sort of "get the government to resign" thing was abandoned looooooooooooong ago ...


----------



## GK .Dundas (2 Jul 2022)

The truly disturbing thing is quite frankly the average Canadian is almost completely ignorant of how Government works or even how the electoral system works.


----------



## torg003 (2 Jul 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> The truly disturbing thing is quite frankly the average Canadian is almost completely ignorant of how Government works or even how the electoral system works.


Hate to beat a dead horse, but that's because education is a provincial responsibility and so there are no national standards for it.  Plus the fact that many provincial governments will cut education (as well as health care) spending as the first thing to try and cut costs .  Why do we need a well educated (and healthy) population?   Many provincial governments don't seem to think we do.


----------



## dimsum (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> C'mon, now - we KNOW that's not why people are _REALLY_ protesting, right? That sort of "get the government to resign" thing was abandoned looooooooooooong ago ...


I mean, one group was talking about arresting him yesterday at the Canada Day festivities...


----------



## Remius (2 Jul 2022)

dimsum said:


> I mean, one group was talking about arresting him yesterday at the Canada Day festivities...


They set up an information booth I belive and bylaw had them take it down.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

dimsum said:


> I mean, one group was talking about arresting him yesterday at the Canada Day festivities...





Remius said:


> They set up an information booth I belive and bylaw had them take it down.


I guess someone didn't read the AAR from the last few times this was tried ...








						Military member who sought to 'arrest' PM is sentenced to six years in jail
					

A heavily-armed member of the Canadian military who drove his truck filled with weapons into the main gates of Rideau Hall, the governor general's residence, last summer before setting out on foot to "arrest" Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was sentenced to six years in prison on Wednesday.  Corey H




					www.rcinet.ca
				











						A Fringe Far-Right Group Keeps Trying to Citizen Arrest Justin Trudeau
					

A man connected to a fringe right-wing Canadian patriot group camping in Ottawa tried to arrest the prime minister. It didn't go well.




					www.vice.com


----------



## dimsum (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I guess someone didn't read the AAR from one of the last times this was tried ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see they read AARs as much as the CAF does.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> They actually had a petition to have  Prime Minister Trudeau arrested for treason.


One of them taken down, apparently ...


----------



## Remius (2 Jul 2022)

Yeesh…


----------



## brihard (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I guess someone didn't read the AAR from the last few times this was tried ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let’s not be too quick to joke. I’ve seen references to today as “Corey Hurren Day”.

That was an extremely dangerous situation, and fortunately initially one, and then a pair of very switched on mounties were able to keep a gun on him but more importantly build a rapport and keep talking to him, with him eventually being talked down. Unfortunately there was a lot of rhetoric in the immediate wake of that to the effect of it’s too bad he didn’t succeed, etc. He definitely inspired some other dangerous people. Some of them might be more willing to shoot cops that are increasingly seen as the enemy- look at the shift in the terminology on right wing social media towards things like “Trudeau’s police”, and such. There is a real and active trend to portraying police protecting downtown Ottawa and the diplomatic/government areas as being the PM’s brownshirts, and all the other dangerous rhetoric that comes with that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Let’s not be too quick to joke. I’ve seen references to today as “Corey Hurren Day”.
> 
> That was an extremely dangerous situation, and fortunately initially one, and then a pair of very switched on mounties were able to keep a gun on him but more importantly build a rapport and keep talking to him, with him eventually being talked down. Unfortunately there was a lot of rhetoric in the immediate wake of that to the effect of it’s too bad he didn’t succeed, etc. He definitely inspired some other dangerous people. Some of them might be more willing to shoot cops that are increasingly seen as the enemy- look at the shift in the terminology on right wing social media towards things like “Trudeau’s police”, and such. There is a real and active trend to portraying police protecting downtown Ottawa and the diplomatic/government areas as being the PM’s brownshirts, and all the other dangerous rhetoric that comes with that.


Didn't mean to minimize, just pointing out this isn't a new narrative or rationale.  

I also see where the "traitor" and "treason" talk can lead to rhetorically, too.


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Let’s not be too quick to joke. I’ve seen references to today as “Corey Hurren Day”.
> 
> That was an extremely dangerous situation, and fortunately initially one, and then a pair of very switched on mounties were able to keep a gun on him but more importantly build a rapport and keep talking to him, with him eventually being talked down. Unfortunately there was a lot of rhetoric in the immediate wake of that to the effect of it’s too bad he didn’t succeed, etc. He definitely inspired some other dangerous people. Some of them might be more willing to shoot cops that are increasingly seen as the enemy- look at the shift in the terminology on right wing social media towards things like “Trudeau’s police”, and such. There is a real and active trend to portraying police protecting downtown Ottawa and the diplomatic/government areas as being the PM’s brownshirts, and all the other dangerous rhetoric that comes with that.


But defund/de-militarize the police came from the guys on the other side of the pool. Y'know, the ones that ran a whole precinct of cops out of their own house and seized a good sized portion of Seattle? Those guys were calling you fascist pigs way before it became cool.


----------



## brihard (2 Jul 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> But defund/de-militarize the police came from the guys on the other side of the pool. Y'know, the ones that ran a whole precinct of cops out of their own house and seized a good sized portion of Seattle? Those guys were calling you fascist pigs way before it became cool.


Yup, well aware. People have hated cops for as long as there have been cops. With that said, I’ll stick to what happens and what’s observable in Canada.

From an ideologically motivated violent extremism standpoint, I know where I perceive the greater threat to come from. In terms of my own safety on the job, I’m only worried about words to the extent that they incite or embolden actions.


----------



## Kilted (2 Jul 2022)

I would say that the far-right and the far-left have the potential to be equally dangerous, they just don't always target the same people.


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup, well aware. People have hated cops for as long as there have been cops. With that said, I’ll stick to what happens and what’s observable in Canada.
> 
> From an ideologically motivated violent extremism standpoint, I know where I perceive the greater threat to come from. In terms of my own safety on the job, I’m only worried about words to the extent that they incite or embolden actions.


Fair enough. I just hope you guys haven’t taken your eye off of those Extinction Rebellion knuckleheads.  If you think they’re just a bunch of bong water drinking granola smokers, there’s a shock coming. There’s potential for some next level crazy with those guys.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Jul 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Fair enough. I just hope you guys haven’t taken your eye off of those Extinction Rebellion knuckleheads.  If you think they’re just a bunch of bong water drinking granola smokers, there’s a shock coming. There’s potential for some next level crazy with those guys.


Yup. They all have a Taliban/Al Queda  level of belief in the cause.

When they are that committed, they aren’t really going to stand around and debate peacefully with people who disagree with them.

Unfortunately, they still regularly get tongue bathed by the CBC and certain politicians (“oh, but the cause they believe in is so noble”). Remember that when things start blowing up and people start dying…


----------



## RangerRay (2 Jul 2022)

I seriously think Trump and COVID broke a lot of peoples’ brains. I don’t know how else to explain this mass psychosis.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> I would say that the far-right and the far-left have the potential to be equally dangerous, they just don't always target the same people.


... or at the same time, necessarily.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jul 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I seriously think Trump and COVID broke a lot of peoples’ brains. I don’t know how else to explain this mass psychosis.



There are shrinks trying to do the same:


*What attracts people to Trump? What is their animus or driving force?*

The reasons are multiple and varied, but in my recent public-service book, _Profile of a Nation_, I have outlined two major emotional drives: narcissistic symbiosis and shared psychosis. Narcissistic symbiosis refers to the developmental wounds that make the leader-follower relationship magnetically attractive. The leader, hungry for adulation to compensate for an inner lack of self-worth, projects grandiose omnipotence—while the followers, rendered needy by societal stress or developmental injury, yearn for a parental figure. When such wounded individuals are given positions of power, they arouse similar pathology in the population that creates a “lock and key” relationship.









						The ‘Shared Psychosis’ of Donald Trump and His Loyalists
					

Forensic psychiatrist Bandy X. Lee explains the outgoing president’s pathological appeal and how to wean people from it




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> Hate to beat a dead horse, but that's because education is a provincial responsibility and so there are no national standards for it.  Plus the fact that many provincial governments will cut education (as well as health care) spending as the first thing to try and cut costs .  Why do we need a well educated (and healthy) population?   Many provincial governments don't seem to think we do.


In general, you're right about the bit-of-a-patchwork-quilt thing happening, but be careful what you wish for.  

National standards are great when you agree with who's in the Ottawa wheelhouse when they're made, but it becomes "propaganda", "indoctrination" or "grooming" when you're not happy with who's in charge in Ottawa.  Think of how differently Liberal, Conservative, or even NDP governments would approach creating "national education standards" - and how differently you'd feel hearing each party say that phrase.

Also, given how different the situations are in different parts of the country, it may only be possible to come up with quite vague general principles everyone can agree on.


----------



## brihard (2 Jul 2022)

Ugh. Timely- new info out on the two shooters in Saanich. Looks like this may well have been more than a robbery. Apparently a decided anti government bent to their social media.









						Saanich, B.C., gunman's Instagram account featured rifles, anti-government hashtags
					

An Instagram account belonging to one of the two gunmen killed in a shootout at a bank in Saanich, B.C., this week paints a picture of a young man who believed gun ownership was a necessary response to government "tyranny."




					bc.ctvnews.ca
				






Kat Stevens said:


> Fair enough. I just hope you guys haven’t taken your eye off of those Extinction Rebellion knuckleheads.  If you think they’re just a bunch of bong water drinking granola smokers, there’s a shock coming. There’s potential for some next level crazy with those guys.



I hope and trust that a good eye is being kept on them too. IMVE stuff is outside what I personally work in; it’s just something I pay attention to.


----------



## RangerRay (2 Jul 2022)

Political violence and oppositional defiance disorder has always been a mainstay of the revolutionary left. Nothing new here. 

What is new, particularly in North America, is political violence and oppositional defiance disorder on the reactionary right.  

Mainstream conservatives haven’t tried to get in front of these reactionary forces since a certain Austrian corporal started to become popular. All those mainstream conservatives thought they could ride the tiger for their own purposes but it didn’t work out well for them in the end.


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Jul 2022)

Yup, never turn your back on a disgruntled corporal lol


----------



## dapaterson (2 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> These chumps aren’t worth my time with family nor my enjoyment of* a *cold Creemore.


Only one?


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2022)

>What attracts people to Trump? What is their animus or driving force?

Never ascribe to psychology what can be attributed to transactional politics.

"I'll choose judges from this list."

"Alrighty then."


----------



## RangerRay (2 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Ugh. Timely- new info out on the two shooters in Saanich. Looks like this may well have been more than a robbery. Apparently a decided anti government bent to their social media.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why am I not surprised?  I had this in the back of my mind since the story broke.


----------



## brihard (2 Jul 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Only one?


No.


----------



## torg003 (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Also, given how different the situations are in different parts of the country, it may only be possible to come up with quite vague general principles everyone can agree on.


That is true.  I wasn't proposing that the federal government come up with curriculum and course content, but they could come up with a general national standard of education.  Something like - by the time kids finish elementary school, they should have basic knowledge of this, this, and this; and proficiency at a certain level in certain skills.  -by the time a student graduates high school they should have a good understanding of how the government is supposed to work,  history of this country (and general world history), etc.  Just come up with a minimum standard that all provinces need to achieve, but it's up to them how to get there.
It would be nice to see the gov't take some leadership in establishing national standards in education, but that would require good leadership and ability to work with the provinces in a non-partisan manner.  But we all know this won't happen.  Most provinces are so worried about protecting their own powers, most wouldn't even entertain any discussion on the matter.  
All I'm saying is it would be nice if it was able to be achieved, but realize that it will probably never happen.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> ... It would be nice to see the gov't take some leadership in establishing national standards in education, but that would require good leadership and ability to work with the provinces in a non-partisan manner ...


Agree with you on the "dare to dream" element of this bit.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Jul 2022)

I suspect the kids get all the civics they should know in social studies, unless stuff was dropped from the curriculum since I was in high school.  What is more likely is that the knowledge is displaced/subsumed by all the social/political noise, particularly people pushing the way things "ought" to be rather than the way the functional processes are laid down.


----------



## lenaitch (3 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> That is true.  I wasn't proposing that the federal government come up with curriculum and course content, but they could come up with a general national standard of education.  Something like - by the time kids finish elementary school, they should have basic knowledge of this, this, and this; and proficiency at a certain level in certain skills.  -by the time a student graduates high school they should have a good understanding of how the government is supposed to work,  history of this country (and general world history), etc.  Just come up with a minimum standard that all provinces need to achieve, but it's up to them how to get there.
> It would be nice to see the gov't take some leadership in establishing national standards in education, but that would require good leadership and ability to work with the provinces in a non-partisan manner.  But we all know this won't happen.  Most provinces are so worried about protecting their own powers, most wouldn't even entertain any discussion on the matter.
> All I'm saying is it would be nice if it was able to be achieved, but realize that it will probably never happen.



With the word "should", they become guidelines, not standards or policy, and would have minimal value beyond employing many new federal bureaucrats in 'busy work'.  As in most things Canadian, anything flowing down from the federal to provincial level must be accompanied by a pile-o-dough and the inevitable province or two declaring 'just give us the money - we'll do what we want'.


----------



## mariomike (3 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Ugh. Timely- new info out on the two shooters in Saanich. Looks like this may well have been more than a robbery. Apparently a decided anti government bent to their social media.
> 
> I hope and trust that a good eye is being kept on them too. IMVE stuff is outside what I personally work in; it’s just something I pay attention to.



Good. Because I never understood how some people could be filled with so much hate.

Willie Sutton explained his motive for bank robbery. But, their motive seems less clear.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Jul 2022)

mariomike said:


> Good. Because I never understood how some people could be filled with so much hate.


Treat someone like shit, make them feel dehumanized, make them feel worthless, and you got a recipe for hate.


----------



## brihard (3 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Treat someone like shit, make them feel dehumanized, make them feel worthless, and you got a recipe for hate.


PAT platoon has entered the chat


----------



## mariomike (3 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Treat someone like shit, make them feel dehumanized, make them feel worthless, and you got a recipe for hate.



Sounds like you've got the motive all figured out.


----------



## Weinie (3 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> PAT platoon has entered the chat


But all PAT's were made to feel worthless, dehumanized, and treated like shit; at least it was egalitarian, eh!


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> PAT platoon has entered the chat



Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen!


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jul 2022)

Don't forget to give them random duties that they have no training for or probably can't actually do effectively. Nothing like giving people with significant injuries suicide watch on some random recruit; really not sure what they expect folks on crutches etc to be able to do, other than feel awful if the person is successful.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Don't forget to give them random duties that they have no training for or probably can't actually do effectively. Nothing like giving people with significant injuries suicide watch on some random recruit; really not sure what they expect folks on crutches etc to be able to do, other than feel awful if the person is successful.  completes suicide.


Not being a dick but a completed suicide is not a "success". (Epstein is a notable exception)

Its a tragedy because no one noticed the invitations a person at risk usually give off.


----------



## RedFive (4 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Not being a dick but a completed suicide is not a "success". (Epstein is a notable exception)
> 
> Its a tragedy because no one noticed the invitations a person at risk usually give off.


Epstein didn't kill himself.


----------



## Bluebulldog (4 Jul 2022)

RedFive said:


> Epstein didn't kill himself.


Thread derail / digression in 3, 2, 1....


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Not being a dick but a completed suicide is not a "success". (Epstein is a notable exception)
> 
> Its a tragedy because no one noticed the invitations a person at risk usually give off.


Fair point, it definitely didn't feel that way as a bystander either. Poor choice of wording on my part, it was a shitty situation all around.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Fair point, it definitely didn't feel that way as a bystander either. Poor choice of wording on my part, it was a shitty situation all around.


That's ok. yes it is a shitty situation when someone completes. Epstein is an exception...


----------



## Weinie (4 Jul 2022)

Apple does not fall far from the tree:

Randy Hillier’s daughter Chelsea Hillier ordered to pay $97,000 for defamatory tweets


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Jul 2022)

Weinie said:


> Apple does not fall far from the tree:
> 
> Randy Hillier’s daughter Chelsea Hillier ordered to pay $97,000 for defamatory tweets


Wow ... High grade, indeed.


----------



## lenaitch (4 Jul 2022)

Weinie said:


> Apple does not fall far from the tree:
> 
> Randy Hillier’s daughter Chelsea Hillier ordered to pay $97,000 for defamatory tweets


Gaa.  I wonder how she treats people she doesn't like.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Jul 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Gaa.  I wonder how she treats people she doesn't like.


Piece of work, she is.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2022)

The tricky part is: it's everyone's flag


----------



## TacticalTea (5 Jul 2022)

mariomike said:


> Sounds like you've got the motive all figured out.


For a moment I thought he'd said ''a recipe for cake''.

Given your resounding approval, I began doubting those online cooking lessons from last year...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Jul 2022)

I think James has a future in politics.  He already has more follow-thru than 99% of MPs in Ottawa in that he does what he says he's going to do.  😉


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Wow ... High grade, indeed.


People like her used to get punched in the face. Repeatedly.


----------



## Booter (5 Jul 2022)

Weinie said:


> Apple does not fall far from the tree:
> 
> Randy Hillier’s daughter Chelsea Hillier ordered to pay $97,000 for defamatory tweets


OMG I was like “this is Rick hillier’s daughter?” I’m glad I dug deeper. 🤦‍♀️


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Jul 2022)

Booter said:


> OMG I was like “this is Rick hillier’s daughter?” I’m glad I dug deeper. 🤦‍♀️


I don’t think the families are even directly related. 🤔


----------



## Kilted (6 Jul 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/topp-soldier-facing-court-martial-1.6511081?fbclid=IwAR3VUzzpF7wQOhGEMVbGdhKNWSxZ9XaTZgc1r7NxQTytJH1dlJrgkCa01ek
		


I guess that he is still in the military.  I didn't realize that he was a Warrant Officer (which I'm sure that he won't be after the trial).  Which unit is he from?


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> *I think James has a future in politics. * He already has more follow-thru than 99% of MPs in Ottawa in that he does what he says he's going to do. 😉


He's says what he thinks and isn't two faced. I don't see him going far.


----------



## brihard (6 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/topp-soldier-facing-court-martial-1.6511081?fbclid=IwAR3VUzzpF7wQOhGEMVbGdhKNWSxZ9XaTZgc1r7NxQTytJH1dlJrgkCa01ek
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that he is still in the military.  I didn't realize that he was a Warrant Officer (which I'm sure that he won't be after the trial).  Which unit is he from?


Sounds like I was misinformed on this. I had understood him to have been 5Fed. So he’s still lying about the ‘dishonourable discharge’ if he’s not even out, but I relied on bad info. My apologies for that. It doesn’t change any of my stated opinions, FWIW.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Sounds like I was misinformed on this. I had understood him to have been 5Fed. So he’s still lying about the ‘dishonourable discharge’ if he’s not even out, but I relied on bad info. My apologies for that. It doesn’t change any of my stated opinions, FWIW.


Has he actually lied?  I haven't seen this at all. He spoke to reporters the other day and said "he was being released".









						Soldier James Topp donned uniform while criticizing vaccine mandates to make his point
					

Warrant Officer James Topp says he does not believe people would have paid attention if he had not donned his uniform to publicly oppose the Canadian military’s vaccine requirements.




					www.nationalobserver.com
				




He is a Reservist now so would be required to actually parade.  

My understanding is all the unvaccinated members were working their way through the Administrative Process.  We had a few at my former unit and they still had to go through the entire AR Process so it would take some time.

They also had a very specific way they were doing it.  It involved interviews and escalating levels of administrative action.  

James knowingly wore his uniform to bring attention to himself. He said so in the above linked article and he also was passionate enough about it to accept the consequences of that decision.  He is going to get his day in Court now where he will get the chance to defend his actions.


----------



## Remius (8 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Has he actually lied?  I haven't seen this at all. He spoke to reporters the other day and said "he was being released".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The AR process for this was shortened and expedited. That process should have been completed months ago.   Now the reserve release process might be the issue lol. 

He may have received his notice of intent to release but the actual steps to release him (ie medical if applicable, kit return etc) might be why he’s still technically in.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> The AR process for this was shortened and expedited. That process should have been completed months ago.   Now the reserve release process might be the issue lol.
> 
> He may have received his notice of intent to release but the actual steps to release him (ie medical if applicable, kit return etc) might be why he’s still technically in.


Yep and I still know people that are going through the process that "should have been completed months ago".  Some of them asked to VR and were curiously denied as well.  

IMO, the whole Anti-Vaxx thing is no different than Conscientious Objection, it should be treated as such.  

Release these people but do it in a dignified manner instead of going all Orwell 1984.  The way we've gone about this is just going to create more problems in the future 😉


----------



## Remius (8 Jul 2022)

'Freedom Convoy' organizer Tamara Lich to stay in jail until trial
					

'Freedom Convoy' organizer Tamara Lich has been denied bail and will remain in custody to await trial on criminal charges related to the Ottawa protest.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Blackadder1916 (8 Jul 2022)

I hope nobody made non-refundable deposits.


----------



## brihard (8 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> 'Freedom Convoy' organizer Tamara Lich to stay in jail until trial
> 
> 
> 'Freedom Convoy' organizer Tamara Lich has been denied bail and will remain in custody to await trial on criminal charges related to the Ottawa protest.
> ...


Wow, that’s a bit surprising. The JP absolutely hammered her on the secondary and tertiary grounds for custody, and he was also quite careful in his reasoning- clearly he expects the bail decision to be reviewed before a judge like it was the first time.

Presumably they’ll be looking to reschedule her trial for considerably sooner. The emerging evidence from another one of the organizers’ cell phones that was revealed in the bail hearing was enlightening as to her alleged motives.

The trial will definitely be interesting…


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Wow, that’s a bit surprising. The JP absolutely hammered her on the secondary and tertiary grounds for custody, and he was also quite careful in his reasoning- clearly he expects the bail decision to be reviewed before a judge like it was the first time.
> 
> Presumably they’ll be looking to reschedule her trial for considerably sooner. The emerging evidence from another one of the organizers’ cell phones that was revealed in the bail hearing was enlightening as to her alleged motives.
> 
> The trial will definitely be interesting…



Her defence team needs to hammer away that murderers and rapists get bail, breach conditions and are arrested only to be released again. While it really has no bearing IMO on the case public opinion can be swayed. 

This is looking more like persecution than prosecution.


----------



## brihard (8 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Her defence team needs to hammer away that murderers and rapists get bail, breach conditions and are arrested only to be released again. While it really has no bearing IMO on the case public opinion can be swayed.
> 
> This is looking more like persecution than prosecution.


Literally all of that is irrelevant. The legal proceedings will turn on whether the alleged offences can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and any review of the bail decision will turn on whether it was legally correct and/or whether there’s any material change to circumstances. Public opinion doesn’t and shouldn’t come in to play. Her case will be adjudicated only on its own merits.


----------



## Weinie (8 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Literally all of that is irrelevant. The legal proceedings will turn on whether the alleged offences can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and any review of the bail decision will turn on whether it was legally correct and/or whether there’s any material change to circumstances. *Public opinion doesn’t and shouldn’t come in to play. Her case will be adjudicated only on its own merits.*


Hmmm.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Public opinion doesn’t and shouldn’t come in to play.


Oh my friend......OS and I can both 100% say otherwise.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jul 2022)

> Public opinion doesn’t and shouldn’t come in to play.



Wish it were so.  I'm too jaded to notice any more when I come across arguments that are variations of "courts need to listen to the people", and I wonder how many people on the inside of the "system" think that way.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Literally all of that is irrelevant. The legal proceedings will turn on whether the alleged offences can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and any review of the bail decision will turn on whether it was legally correct and/or whether there’s any material change to circumstances. Public opinion doesn’t and shouldn’t come in to play. Her case will be adjudicated only on its own merits.









Dude pass the Koolaid!  OK Bad joke!

Seriously though, Public Opinion shouldn't come in to play, but it does sometimes 😉


----------



## brihard (8 Jul 2022)

The justices will render decisions that to the best of their knowledge will withstand legal scrutiny and challenge. Particularly as it pertains to the criminal charges, we’re only just starting to learn some of the additional material in the possession of investigators and already disclosed to crown and likely defense, which informs both the seriousness of the underlying offences and some of the perceived risk of reoffending.

If anyone wants to actually look through the decisions today or previously and argue the primary, secondary, and tertiary bail grounds, have at ‘er. So far I’ve not seen anything coming out of the courts that wasn't well reasoned and defensible.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> The justices will render decisions that to the best of their knowledge will withstand legal scrutiny and challenge. Particularly as it pertains to the criminal charges, we’re only just starting to learn some of the additional material in the possession of investigators and already disclosed to crown and likely defense, which informs both the seriousness of the underlying offences and some of the perceived risk of reoffending.
> 
> If anyone wants to actually look through the decisions today or previously and argue the primary, secondary, and tertiary bail grounds, have at ‘er. So far I’ve not seen anything coming out of the courts that wasn't well reasoned and defensible.


All OS is saying, and I agree, is that 3 cases later once all the cameras and scribes are gone the asshole with 3 previous breaches of bail, and looking at his fourth weapons charge, just walked out like it was nothing.

We've both seen it many many times......


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jul 2022)

The government would never politically interphere with, or apply political pressure to legal proceedings, right?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Jul 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> All OS is saying, and I agree, is that 3 cases later once all the cameras and scribes are gone the asshole with 3 previous breaches of bail, and looking at his fourth weapons charge, just walked out like it was nothing.
> 
> We've both seen it many many times......


Yup!  

 Other than be a massive nuisance, what has Tamara Lich actually done?  

Perma-Jail for conspiring with others in the orchestration of the World's largest illegal parking/traffic violation event 😄

Annoying as all hell = yes

Dangerous Offender that we must keep behind bars indefinitely = 🤨


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The government would never politically interphere with, or apply political pressure to legal proceedings, right?









Oh god.... you went there 😆

Or this awesome headline:
RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki tried to ‘jeopardize’ mass murder investigation to advance Trudeau’s gun control efforts​








						RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki tried to 'jeopardize' mass murder investigation to advance Trudeau’s gun control efforts - Halifax Examiner
					

RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki “made a promise” to Public Safety Minister Bill Blair and the Prime Minister’s Office to leverage the mass murders of April 18/19, 2020 to get a gun control law passed.  A week after the murders, Lucki pressured RCMP in Nova Scotia to release details of the weapons...




					www.halifaxexaminer.ca
				




🤐


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Jul 2022)

The batteries in my “pretending to be surprised face” have run out of juice…


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> This is looking more like persecution than prosecution.


----------



## Furniture (15 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> The justices will render decisions that to the best of their knowledge will withstand legal scrutiny and challenge. Particularly as it pertains to the criminal charges, we’re only just starting to learn some of the additional material in the possession of investigators and already disclosed to crown and likely defense, which informs both the seriousness of the underlying offences and some of the perceived risk of reoffending.
> 
> If anyone wants to actually look through the decisions today or previously and argue the primary, secondary, and tertiary bail grounds, have at ‘er. So far I’ve not seen anything coming out of the courts that wasn't well reasoned and defensible.


It's entirely reasonable to expect that violent offenders who know how to play the system will get more lenient conditions that naïve non-violent offenders... 

That's the entire principal that out system is built on really... Rapist? Murderer? You're good because you "played the bail game". Organized a protest that got out of hand, didn't understand the system?  "Get back in cells!!!"


----------



## Spencer100 (15 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> Hate to beat a dead horse, but that's because education is a provincial responsibility and so there are no national standards for it.  Plus the fact that many provincial governments will cut education (as well as health care) spending as the first thing to try and cut costs .  Why do we need a well educated (and healthy) population?   Many provincial governments don't seem to think we do.


In all honesty healthcare have never been cut in the provinces.  It raises every year.  They do move money from different things. i.e. Building hositpals to nursing care to MRI's.  Never cuts.. Same with education over the years.


----------



## Spencer100 (15 Jul 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Fair enough. I just hope you guys haven’t taken your eye off of those Extinction Rebellion knuckleheads.  If you think they’re just a bunch of bong water drinking granola smokers, there’s a shock coming. There’s potential for some next level crazy with those guys.


They are an "approved" protestor.


----------



## Navy_Pete (15 Jul 2022)

Furniture said:


> It's entirely reasonable to expect that violent offenders who know how to play the system will get more lenient conditions that naïve non-violent offenders...
> 
> That's the entire principal that out system is built on really... Rapist? Murderer? You're good because you "played the bail game". Organized a protest that got out of hand, didn't understand the system?  "Get back in cells!!!"


Big difference between not understanding and not flaunting restrictions. The instructions to stay away from a laundry list of people was pretty clear; having dinner with them and posting photos of it was just dumb.

At this point the level of ignorance seems to be deliberately cultivated.


----------



## brihard (15 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> In all honesty healthcare have never been cut in the provinces.  It raises every year.  They do move money from different things. i.e. Building hositpals to nursing care to MRI's.  Never cuts.. Same with education over the years.



Willingly choosing to not keep up with rising demand and rising costs is a de facto cut. Statutorily restricting health care workers to 1% salary increases when there’s 6% inflation is an effective 5% pay cut. A growing population needs growing capacity. Not providing it means cutting service on an effective per capita basis.


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Willingly choosing to not keep up with rising demand and rising costs is a de facto cut. Statutorily restricting health care workers to 1% salary increases when there’s 6% inflation is an effective 5% pay cut. A growing population needs growing capacity. Not providing it means cutting service on an effective per capita basis.


Robyn Urback is right.


----------



## mariomike (15 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Willingly choosing to not keep up with rising demand and rising costs is a de facto cut.



Saw this line-up waiting to off-load their patients at a Guelph ER last week. Heaven knows how many more crews were waiting inside the "Hall of Shame."

Ontario hospitals are costing municipalities and taxpayers millions of dollars in paramedic down-time because they can't get their acts together.

Then they have the nerve to comeback to those same municipalities and taxpayers and ask for millions more for new equipment, expansions etc.

People wonder why 9-1-1 response times are so bad.


----------



## McG (15 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> In all honesty healthcare have never been cut in the provinces.  It raises every year.  They do move money from different things. i.e. Building hositpals to nursing care to MRI's.  Never cuts.. Same with education over the years.


Canada trails other countries when it comes to the rate at which both our health spending and our life expectancies are increasing:








						Link between health spending and life expectancy: The US is an outlier
					

Update in 2020: This post has been updated and republished under the title ‘Why is life expectancy in the US lower than in other rich countries?‘




					ourworldindata.org
				



Mind you, we are definitely doing better than the one substantial outlier ... which somehow is often held up as the model of what right could look like.


----------



## brihard (15 Jul 2022)

mariomike said:


> Saw this line-up waiting to off-load their patients at a Guelph ER last week. Heaven knows how many more crews were waiting inside the "Hall of Shame."
> 
> Ontario hospitals are costing municipalities and taxpayers millions of dollars in paramedic down-time because they can't get their acts together.
> 
> ...


I’m pretty regularly bringing a family member to the hospital for chemo, and we get a good view of the ambulance area and how many are waiting. Also got a cousin working for the city’s ambulance service, and another who just finished an ER residence as a doctor (and former paramedic). Lots of data points and anecdotes pointing to a massive problem in hospital capacity and patient ingestion and throughput.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Jul 2022)

> Willingly choosing to not keep up with rising demand and rising costs is a de facto cut.



Yes.  Who makes these willing choices?  The CPC offered a 6% CHT (minimum) annual increase, no strings.  (Back to Martin's "Fix for a Generation" - 10 years, extended by Harper for 2.)  They were not elected.

Did people like their past tax cuts?  Additional payments to families with children?  Childcare?  Proposed dental plan?  Proposed pharma plan?  All these cost money, as did all the small programs the LPC turned back on after Harper-era cuts.

People attempted quantitative analysis of life/quality during COVID, to demonstrate why the many should make sacrifices to help the few.  What measure now of people dead, living with degraded quality of life, or waiting in pain/discomfort due to healthcare needs going unmet for months?

What tangible benefits (see above) or ideological markers will each voter forego to pursue improvements?

Pundits would have more credibility if they talked also about the kind of health care people with private insurance, or ability to pay, receive in the US.

Example. And this.

It's helpful that so many Canadians live close to the US border.


----------



## brihard (15 Jul 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes.  Who makes these willing choices?  The CPC offered a 6% CHT (minimum) annual increase, no strings.  (Back to Martin's "Fix for a Generation" - 10 years, extended by Harper for 2.)  They were not elected.
> 
> Did people like their past tax cuts?  Additional payments to families with children?  Childcare?  Proposed dental plan?  Proposed pharma plan?  All these cost money, as did all the small programs the LPC turned back on after Harper-era cuts.
> 
> ...


I was simply offering important context to the claim that ‘health care is never cut’.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Jul 2022)

Meanwhile, Vic PD needs a bunch of medals handed out for nailing the d%ckheads 


Tickets issued after honking drivers cause disruption in downtown Victoria​ 
Police asked group of motorists to stop honking their horns. They complied, but later, some started honking again at a nearby location.


"They were circling the block, honking and using amplified speakers to target a particular business, said police, who did not identify the business.

These were the same drivers who had been given warnings. The officer started pulling them over to hand out tickets under the Motor Vehicle Act. The disruptive activity soon stopped, police said.


Two drivers received tickets carrying fines and penalty points. Details were not released.


“VicPD supports safe, peaceful and lawful protest. Dangerous and/or unsafe activity will continue to be met with de-escalation and enforcement.”


Earlier this year, the legislature was the scene of frequent protests, often anti-vaccine and anti-government, which included trucks and cars honking as they circled the block. Police eventually set up barricades prohibiting vehicles from entering the area."










						Tickets issued after honking drivers cause disruption in downtown Victoria
					

Police asked group of motorists to stop honking their horns. They complied, but later, some started honking again at a nearby location.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## mariomike (15 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, Vic PD needs a bunch of medals handed out for nailing the d%ckheads
> 
> 
> ​



Neighbourhood should bake them a cake(s).

Something like the one painted by Norman Rockwell: "To the boys 17th Precinct police station".


----------



## lenaitch (15 Jul 2022)

mariomike said:


> Saw this line-up waiting to off-load their patients at a Guelph ER last week. Heaven knows how many more crews were waiting inside the "Hall of Shame."
> 
> Ontario hospitals are costing municipalities and taxpayers millions of dollars in paramedic down-time because they can't get their acts together.
> 
> ...


Well it just wouldn't be a meeting of at least two premiers without a bash session demanding more federal money for provincial programs.  The fact that Ontario's premier recently jettisoned about $1Bn in vehicle registration revenue apparently has nothing to do with it.  There is also an argument that Ottawa permanently transferred 'tax points' to provinces to allow them to increase revenue (on that I'll have to take the analysts word for it - it's beyond me).

There was a story a couple of days ago about some poor dude in Wiarton lying on a gurney for four days waiting for a bed at London for orthopedic surgery.  At least they didn't close the ER on him and leave him it dark.


----------



## mariomike (15 Jul 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Well it just wouldn't be a meeting of at least two premiers without a bash session demanding more federal money for provincial programs.  The fact that Ontario's premier recently jettisoned about $1Bn in vehicle registration revenue apparently has nothing to do with it.  There is also an argument that Ottawa permanently transferred 'tax points' to provinces to allow them to increase revenue (on that I'll have to take the analysts word for it - it's beyond me).
> 
> There was a story a couple of days ago about some poor dude in Wiarton lying on a gurney for four days waiting for a bed at London for orthopedic surgery.  At least they didn't close the ER on him and leave him it dark.



Given the fact that the patients are the hospital's responsibility, the hospital can bring their own staff, from other departments if necessary, to care for patients, rather than deliberately tying up a resource which they don't pay for, and which needs to be elsewhere. 

Perhaps the time has come to bill the hospital for for the entire cost of each off-load delay.

People may get distracted by the "freedom" rallies. But, I think they should focus their attention on what is happening in their local ERs - those that are still open.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Jul 2022)

I hear the usual crying that it's about money....its not, staff are just tapping out.  Those that worked in any capacity through this are tired,  those that stayed home and worked and/or collected CERB are finding they don't want to go back to a place of work.

Money doesn't fix that....


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Jul 2022)

> Well it just wouldn't be a meeting of at least two premiers without a bash session demanding more federal money for provincial programs.



Harper understood this, which is why he tended not to bother meeting with premiers other than one-on-one.



> There is also an argument that Ottawa permanently transferred 'tax points' to provinces to allow them to increase revenue



Yes, the GST cut and the income tax cuts.  Any tax cut by the federal government leaves room for provinces to increase taxes without, in principle, increasing their taxpayers' tax burdens.  But what premiers prefer is for Ottawa to tax, and then make transfers to provinces.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Jul 2022)

Enact the Emergencies Act and order health care workers to work over time and don't let them quit. Threaten em with jail if they don't obey.


----------



## mariomike (16 Jul 2022)

If the ER delays a crew off-loading, send them a bill for the entire cost of each off-load delay.

That, or go on Critical Care Bypass ( CCB ), with an over-ride protocol.

Understand CCB and Re-direct Consideration ( RDC ) liability issues. ( Ref: Joshua Fleuelling inquest. )

Hospitals will accept all patients that meet the criteria of the CCB override protocol, regardless of their diversion status.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Jul 2022)

> If the ER delays a crew, send them a bill for the entire cost of each off-load delay.



I hadn't envisioned setting parts of the system against each other as a solution...


----------



## mariomike (16 Jul 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I hadn't envisioned setting parts of the system against each other as a solution...



They can sort it out at the next inquest...

Then come the lawsuits...


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/family-sues-government-for-son-s-asthma-death-1.256849
		


Family sues government for son's asthma death​


> Fluelling, 18, was having a severe asthma attack in January, 2000 when his ambulance was redirected from the closest hospital, Scarborough Grace Hospital, and sent to Markham-Stouffville Hospital, more than twice the distance away.
> Scarborough Grace was on critical care bypass and not accepting new patients the night of Fluelling's attack.
> On route to Markham, the teenager suffered respiratory failure and brain damage. He died later in hospital.
> "Had he immediately gotten to that hospital [Scarborough Grace], his chances of survival would have gone up extraordinarily," Oakley said.
> "Critical care bypass means you are turning away someone who is critically ill. The longer anyone like that has to wait for care, the less likely they are going to survive it. It's as simple as that," said the lawyer.





> The family has already filed civil action against Toronto Paramedic Services and the Scarborough Grace Hospital in a separate lawsuit.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Jul 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Well it just wouldn't be a meeting of at least two premiers without a bash session demanding more federal money for provincial programs.  The fact that Ontario's premier recently jettisoned about $1Bn in vehicle registration revenue apparently has nothing to do with it.  There is also an argument that Ottawa permanently transferred 'tax points' to provinces to allow them to increase revenue (on that I'll have to take the analysts word for it - it's beyond me).
> 
> There was a story a couple of days ago about some poor dude in Wiarton lying on a gurney for four days waiting for a bed at London for orthopedic surgery.  At least they didn't close the ER on him and leave him it dark.


He jumped the gun on the vehicle registration.  He knows what's coming.  He just did it early.  Every car built and sold today has the ability to track and upload for pay per mile.  Its a software update. He just did too early.  If the e-vehicle is the future and no gas taxes this must be implemented.  This is not tinfoil hat stuff.  I go to auto conferences and this talk about.  So yes ontario gave up some revenue over the very short term.


----------



## lenaitch (16 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> He jumped the gun on the vehicle registration.  He knows what's coming.  He just did it early.  Every car built and sold today has the ability to track and upload for pay per mile.  Its a software update. He just did too early.  If the e-vehicle is the future and no gas taxes this must be implemented.  This is not tinfoil hat stuff.  I go to auto conferences and this talk about.  So yes ontario gave up some revenue over the very short term.



Perhaps serendipitously; otherwise, methinks you credit our Premier (or any politician or advisor for that matter) with too much strategic thinking.

I'm not even sure this has been discussed at the policy level, perhaps it has, but I can assure you that it will involve much more than a mere software update.  Enabling legislation, international standards and agreements, privacy considerations and exemption handling are only some of the issues that will have to be addressed by governments, not the industry.

Roughly a billion dollars is a lot of "some revenue" when it could have been done the day before any change-over, and "the very short term" is a matter of some debate.


----------



## CBH99 (17 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Oh god.... you went there 😆
> 
> Or this awesome headline:
> RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki tried to ‘jeopardize’ mass murder investigation to advance Trudeau’s gun control efforts​
> ...


The first is just sheer corruption at the ultimate white collar level that has come to define Trudeau, among many other unflattering consistencies.

In my imaginary world, if a few guys walked into the PM’s office & asked him to change some laws ‘so they were no longer violating them during the course of their day to day dealings’ - those people wouldn’t have walked out of the PM’s office with it handcuffs on.  

Just the fact that they walked in and asked at all just goes to show how us how emboldened they felt.

That would’ve been a great opportunity to show the Canadian public, and countries around the world, that we are a moral country that _actually is_ open & transparent.  

Que dumb dumb to miss the obvious opportunity, and do the exact opposite 🤦🏼‍♂️ 



As for the second…colour me, nor anybody else, surprised.  

I haven’t heard a single person react with “That surprises me!”  

Rather it’s been a consistent  “…that doesn’t surprise me at all…”


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Jul 2022)

The day that a flagrant ethically-bereft PM and his Rolex-wearing BMW-driving socialist lackey can be held even somewhat accountable by some of the electorate can’t come soon enough.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Jul 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The day that a flagrant ethically-bereft PM and his Rolex-wearing BMW-driving socialist lackey can be held even somewhat accountable by some of the electorate can’t come soon enough.


Jagmeet Singh makes me want to vomit every time he opens his mouth.  Guy is completely out to lunch.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Jagmeet Singh makes me want to vomit every time he opens his mouth.  Guy is completely out to lunch.



Really ?  I like him, I just wish he wasn't running for the Liberal party minor league AA team.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 Jul 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Really ?  I like him, I just wish he wasn't running for the Liberal party minor league AA team.


Three reasons:

1.  He pretends to represent the interests of working class people but is really a Champagne Socialist on steroids.

2.  He has willingly allowed and supported the current Government to get away with numerous ethical violations.  











"It’s unprecedented that the Ethics Commissioner has found two contraventions...."  but I'm going to support the current Government anyways. 🤮

3.  He has demonstrated multiple times that he is completely out of his depth on many issues, which is why he is running the minor league team.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Three reasons:
> 
> 1.  He pretends to represent the interests of working class people but is really a Champagne Socialist on steroids.
> 
> ...



Always making me look at something from another position.  Merci beaucoup mon ami!


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Three reasons:
> 
> 1.  He pretends to represent the interests of working class people but is really a Champagne Socialist on steroids.
> 
> ...


You are spot on. Most of these "representatives" of "the People" are wealthy and priveleged.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (18 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> 3.  He has demonstrated multiple times that he is completely out of his depth on many issues, which is why he is running the minor league team.


I wouldn't say any current political party leader in Canada would pass this point. 

To give Singh credit he is the only political leader at the moment in Canada (at least as of the last election) who could actually debate things properly without it being some sort of shouting match and having the decorum to act proper for those events. And even though I am not a NDP fan, I would say out of the current line up of party leaders, he is the _closest_ to acting how a PM should act.

*meaning he still isn't a good choice, just a slightly better option on the whole than the other alternatives. All of them are bad options.


----------



## brihard (18 Jul 2022)

On the subject of the convoy, Pat King just made bail on very strict conditions, and $25,000 deposited by multiple sureties.

I’m not 100% sure, but I believe all of the main organizers/leadership figures from Ottawa have now made at least initial bail, though one is obviously back in custody.


----------



## TacticalTea (19 Jul 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I wouldn't say any current political party leader in Canada would pass this point.
> 
> To give Singh credit he is the only political leader at the moment in Canada (at least as of the last election) who could actually debate things properly without it being some sort of shouting match and having the decorum to act proper for those events. And even though I am not a NDP fan, I would say out of the current line up of party leaders, he is the _closest_ to acting how a PM should act.
> 
> *meaning he still isn't a good choice, just a slightly better option on the whole than the other alternatives. All of them are bad options.


I thought the Bloc guy was a decent man and a reasonable moderate! 😉


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I thought the Bloc guy was a decent man and a reasonable moderate! 😉


A few years ago at a previous debate, it was a coin toss between the BQ lead, Singh and May on who was the most reasonable, while Trudeau and Scheer took turns yelling at each other.

Figure it's a bad sign when the BQ is making a valid policy point against the incumbent PM and the official opposition leader.

My favourite line from that debate came from Singh though; he said something along the lines (to Trudeau and Scheer) that they were both taking turns saying how terrible the other person was, without arguing while they are the best choice.

Try to keep that in mind now when hearing from politicians to see what they are presenting as an alternative option.


----------



## Edward Campbell (19 Jul 2022)

Remember the 1950s? People in America, black people and white people, Jews, especially, _knew_ that the laws in many cities and states were wrong. History proved them right. They also _knew_ that those laws would reenforced, often brutally. History proved them right, again. They marched and protested anyway - some were killed by the authorities of their efforts. They marched and protested and broke the laws, _knowing_ that they would pay a price. They were right.

Fast forward 65 years ... some people_ believe_ that their rights are being denied to them. _Believing_ and _knowing_ are very, very similar - a believer thinks (s)he knows the truth. The difference, it seems to me, is that many of today's _believers_ don't think that the laws can or should be enforced. They know it is against the law to blockade city streets but they_ believe_ that they have a right to do that; they _believe_ that the laws should not be enforced against them.

_I believe_ that some actions that Trudeau government took, maybe a little too gleefully, did violate some of the rights of some people - how far that violation can be justified in a free and democratic society is a matter for debate. History will eventually decide. _I know_ that some sensible, practical, useful laws were broken.  I also _know _that, for a whole host of reasons about which history, yet again, will rule, those laws were not properly, consistently and fairly enforced.

I do not see the 2020 "truckers" in the 1950s civil rights protesters, do you?


----------



## brihard (19 Jul 2022)

In an update on the related blockade at the Coutts border crossing in Alberta, bail has been denied to the fourth and final of the accused still held in a conspiracy to murder RCMP at the protest. This was the one where numerous firearms, prohibited magazines, and body armour were found. They'll go to a joint trial next June.









						Bail denied for 4th suspect charged with conspiracy to commit murder at Coutts border protest  | Globalnews.ca
					

Queen's Bench Justice Johnna Kubik ruled in Lethbridge court on Monday that Jerry Morin, who is 40, must remain in custody until his trial.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## CBH99 (20 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Jagmeet Singh makes me want to vomit every time he opens his mouth.  Guy is completely out to lunch.


I’ll be honest, I’ve disconnected from following politics for around a year & a half or so now — and I had no idea how blissful it can be to be in the dark. 

There is no getting around following the Prime Minister’s constant verbal diarrhoea. I feel the same way as you do


brihard said:


> In an update on the related blockade at the Coutts border crossing in Alberta, bail has been denied to the fourth and final of the accused still held in a conspiracy to murder RCMP at the protest. This was the one where numerous firearms, prohibited magazines, and body armour were found. They'll go to a joint trial next June.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad these folks were remanded.   I am all for people protesting, especially when they are protesting what very much appears to be exceptional government overreach. Conspiring to murder anybody, especially our police officers, should get you remanded for obvious reasons.

That being said... Having to wait almost a year for your trial to happen, when one is presumed innocent until proven guilty, causes me concern.  

If the Crown has enough solid evidence that it is comfortable proceeding with the file, And asking that the individual be remanded -  Why is the trial scheduled for almost a year from now?

Yes the Crown has an obligation to provide disclosure in a timely manner, and the accused needs time to retain legal counsel, etc.

But being stuck behind bars for almost a year when you haven't been convicted of the crime... In the bigger picture, it seems concerning?


( I am not arguing that the individuals do not pose a threat to society.  Clearly if they have the firearms and other paraphernalia as stated,  And their communications support the charges, etc.   

My only concern stems from having people remanded for such a long period when they have not been convicted of a crime.   The seriously can't schedule anything sooner than June?)


----------



## FSTO (20 Jul 2022)

CBH99 said:


> I’ll be honest, I’ve disconnected from following politics for around a year & a half or so now — and I had no idea how blissful it can be to be in the dark.
> 
> There is no getting around following the Prime Minister’s constant verbal diarrhoea. I feel the same way as you do
> 
> ...


Likely due to court and lawyer availability.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Jul 2022)

CBH99 said:


> I’ll be honest, I’ve disconnected from following politics for around a year & a half or so now — and I had no idea how blissful it can be to be in the dark.
> 
> There is no getting around following the Prime Minister’s constant verbal diarrhoea. I feel the same way as you do
> 
> ...


As an add on to this, if any are acquitted are they entitled to compensation for the dismantling of their lives? Not for a moment bringing their guilt or innocence into it, I have a peace officer daughter with an RCMP hubby. These muppets deserve everything coming to them.


----------



## brihard (20 Jul 2022)

CBH99 said:


> I’ll be honest, I’ve disconnected from following politics for around a year & a half or so now — and I had no idea how blissful it can be to be in the dark.
> 
> There is no getting around following the Prime Minister’s constant verbal diarrhoea. I feel the same way as you do
> 
> ...



That kind of timeline is normal, largely due to the challenges of scheduling court. Defense counsel availability can be a huge issue, and then you need a judge with sufficient time open for the anticipated trial length. The SCC case R V Jordan addressed this, and set a timeline of 18 months in provincial court or 30 months in superior court as presumptively unreasonable. Time added by defense doesn’t count, and there’s a mechanism for arguing delays from outside factors.

I also think you underestimate how long it can take defense counsel to prepare for a trial. I’m involved in disclosure on a major file and the sheer volume of material counsel on both sides have to review is staggering. Defense can’t rush it.

A LOT goes into whether someone gets bail or not, and on our end, properly preparing a bail package can be a lot of work. Been there, done that many times. The presumption is that a person will get bail; the onus is usually on the crown to demonstrate why they shouldn’t, excepting some limited reverse onus situations. Bail hearings are often covered by publication bans, and we don’t get to learn the reasons til later after trial. I think that’s the case here. Such bans are normally requested to protect the integrity of a later trial and to avoid tainting a jury pool.



Kat Stevens said:


> As an add on to this, if any are acquitted are they entitled to compensation for the dismantling of their lives? Not for a moment bringing their guilt or innocence into it, I have a peace officer daughter with an RCMP hubby. These muppets deserve everything coming to them.



If they think they can argue that they were wronged civilly they can try, but there’s no default damages or anything. Not getting criminally convicted doesn’t mean you didn’t actually do the thing you’re accused of. Legal culpability is often a much higher threshold than factual events.


----------



## Haggis (20 Jul 2022)

CBH99 said:


> I'm glad these folks were remanded.   I am all for people protesting, especially when they are protesting what very much appears to be exceptional government overreach. Conspiring to murder anybody, especially our police officers, should get you remanded for obvious reasons.
> 
> That being said... Having to wait almost a year for your trial to happen, when one is presumed innocent until proven guilty, causes me concern.
> 
> ...


In Canada, the conditions under which a person may be retained in custody are quite narrow.
CCC s. 495(1) sets out the conditions for arrest without a warrant.  495 (2)(d) and (e) set out the conditions which must be met in order for a person to remain in custody.  These are colloquially known as "R.I.C.E"


Prevent the *R*epetition or continuation of an offence or the commission of _another_ offence.
Confirm the *I*dentity of the accused.
Compel attendance in *C*ourt (e.g. is the accused likely to appear or are they a flight risk?)
Secure and Preserve *E*vidence.

If all these conditions are met, the accused MUST be released.
This is why you very often see news articles stating:  "Bloggins was arrested for XXX and released on a promise to appear with a court date of October XX".


----------



## brihard (20 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> In Canada, the conditions under which a person may be retained in custody are quite narrow.
> CCC s. 495(1) sets out the conditions for arrest without a warrant.  495 (2)(d) and (e) set out the conditions which must be met in order for a person to remain in custody.  These are colloquially known as "R.I.C.E"
> 
> 
> ...



Close but not quite. RICE is part of, but not exhaustively, a larger public interest. Also, there are offences for which an accused cannot be released, but must be brought before a justice- these will be for the most serious indictable offences.

So all that said, 495 governs initial arrest without warrant, but judicial interim release and the bail regime are set out elsewhere. The considerations are similar in principle, but the bail system also concerns itself with other additional considerations for whether or not someone should remain in custody. And then if someone gets bail and then breaches, the calculus can (not always ‘will’) change further.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> That kind of timeline is normal, largely due to the challenges of scheduling court. Defense counsel availability can be a huge issue, and then you need a judge with sufficient time open for the anticipated trial length. The SCC case R V Jordan addressed this, and set a timeline of 18 months in provincial court or 30 months in superior court as presumptively unreasonable. Time added by defense doesn’t count, and there’s a mechanism for arguing delays from outside factors.
> 
> I also think you underestimate how long it can take defense counsel to prepare for a trial. I’m involved in disclosure on a major file and the sheer volume of material counsel on both sides have to review is staggering. Defense can’t rush it.
> 
> ...



That's some system there. "we know you did it, we just can't prove it so tough shit about the nine months pre trial incarceration. Have a nice day!" Democracy in action, reminds me of my first orders parade, " nobody saw you do it, Sapper Stevens, and we have no proof that you did it, but Sgt Maj Senility says you did it, so here's a $150 fine and 14 days CB, have a nice day!"


----------



## CBH99 (20 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> That kind of timeline is normal, largely due to the challenges of scheduling court. Defense counsel availability can be a huge issue, and then you need a judge with sufficient time open for the anticipated trial length. The SCC case R V Jordan addressed this, and set a timeline of 18 months in provincial court or 30 months in superior court as presumptively unreasonable. Time added by defense doesn’t count, and there’s a mechanism for arguing delays from outside factors.
> 
> I also think you underestimate how long it can take defense counsel to prepare for a trial. I’m involved in disclosure on a major file and the sheer volume of material counsel on both sides have to review is staggering. Defense can’t rush it.
> 
> ...





brihard said:


> Close but not quite. RICE is part of, but not exhaustively, a larger public interest. Also, there are offences for which an accused cannot be released, but must be brought before a justice- these will be for the most serious indictable offences.
> 
> So all that said, 495 governs initial arrest without warrant, but judicial interim release and the bail regime are set out elsewhere. The considerations are similar in principle, but the bail system also concerns itself with other additional considerations for whether or not someone should remain in custody. And then if someone gets bail and then breaches, the calculus can (not always ‘will’) change further.


A few years back while jumbling a few casual jobs, I did work at a provincial prison. 

Part of my job was to sit in on JIR’s (the police would often use our cells if their 2 already had tenants) so I became familiar enough with the process, but nowhere near the working knowledge that you guys have. 

That was a question I always had in the back of my mind.  

Obviously this case is a serious one, and will garner national media attention - but it makes me wonder about all the cases we never hear of about, aka the ‘everyday grind of the system.’

It seems odd that we put right in the Charter that someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but can hold them in prison prior to their trial with no mechanism to somehow correct a situation if they are acquitted, found not guilty, etc.


----------



## Haggis (20 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Close but not quite. RICE is part of, but not exhaustively, a larger public interest. Also, there are offences for which an accused cannot be released, but must be brought before a justice- these will be for the most serious indictable offences.





brihard said:


> So all that said, 495 governs initial arrest without warrant, but judicial interim release and the bail regime are set out elsewhere. The considerations are similar in principle, but the bail system also concerns itself with other additional considerations for whether or not someone should remain in custody. And then if someone gets bail and then breaches, the calculus can (not always ‘will’) change further.


Well put, and in retrospect, I didn't pay enough attention to the "bail" focus of CBH99's post (posting quickly during a break in roof repairs).

You deal with bail releases more often than we do.  It's mostly 495/496/497 for us under the CCC.


----------



## CBH99 (20 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> Well put, and in retrospect, I didn't pay enough attention to the "bail" focus of CBH99's post (posting quickly during a break in roof repairs).
> 
> You deal with bail releases more often than we do.  It's mostly 495/496/497 for us under the CCC.


Regardless, I appreciate both of your posts!

Both exceptionally informative & makes the process easier to understand once one see’s all the mechanisms involved.


----------



## brihard (20 Jul 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> That's some system there. "we know you did it, we just can't prove it so tough shit about the nine months pre trial incarceration. Have a nice day!"





CBH99 said:


> It seems odd that we put right in the Charter that someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but can hold them in prison prior to their trial with no mechanism to somehow correct a situation if they are acquitted, found not guilty, etc.



Well, no, you guys are presenting it as if I can catch someone doing something, arrest and charge them, and then tell them 'LOL, rot in jail dumb dumb, your trial's February 2024", and then however it goes, too bad, so sad. It's not like that at all.

Firstly, the presumption is they will be released. For most offences, we can release someone on the spot with paperwork as long as we aren't concerned about repetition, the suspect's identification, their attendance in court, or the preservation of evidence. That means if I arrest a guy for beating his wife and I have grounds to believe he'll go right back and beat her again, I'll hold him in custody. If I catch someone smashing up a car, he has no ID and refuses to identify himself, I'll hold him. If I arrest and charge a guy and he's already out on bail, has an arrest warrant out for skipping court, and has a history of fail to appear in court, I'm holding him. If I arrest a guy for drug trafficking and we're still working on a search warrant for the stash house, and releasing him will result in a phone call and drugs getting flushed, I'm holding him.

Holding him just means he goes before a Justice of the Peace or Judge (almost always JP) as soon as practicable. The presumption is the JP will release the accused with a court date and probably some conditions. For the accused to be held in custody after that point, they either need to consent to it (common for a few days to perfect a bail plan), or the Crown needs to 'Show Cause' why the person can't be released. Again, the presumption is they go free, and anything other than that will usually be on the strength of a convincing argument form the crown.

Even if a JP decides to hold someone in custody, the accused can still request a bail review at any point and take the matter before a judge. They can offer new information. They can offer a better bail plan, more effectively crafted conditions, a better surety. This, for instance, is what happened with Tamara Lich. She was arrested, was initially held in custody, and eventually got a bail review and presented a good enough plan to get bail (this is all pre-breach obviously). 

So, on arrest the presumption is the accused gets released unless the police officer has distinct and lawful grounds not to. If held, then the presumption at bail hearing is they get released unless crown shows good cause why not.  Even if held then, the accused can request a bail review if circumstances change in their favour.

It is absolutely possible that a person gets arrested, remanded (held in custody), sits in jail for a year, and then goes to court and is acquitted or has charges stayed or withdrawn. It happens. In almost all cases, something has happened to cause the crown the be unable to prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. Usually the accused still did the thing, but a conviction cannot be won. 

There's no automatic payout or anything if this happens. There have been a number of checks and balances along the way. If, despite all that, a person who was accused and held, and later acquitted wishes to, they can lawyer up and file a lawsuit. If the crown or police really screwed up, they'll likely get a settlement out of it. Usually not, because usually they were in pre-trial custody for very good reason and there's a solid trail of evidence to back it up, even if the prosecution eventually falls apart. A prosecution can die for a lot of reasons, many of them very narrow and technical, and nothing to do at all with whether the accused did or didn't do it.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jul 2022)

Good explanation.....just need to add one thing that you would have no reason to deal with in your part of the system.

Sometimes they want to be remanded and stay, as they know that they are getting AT LEAST 2 days off sentence for every one served.  And of course sometimes they get the 3 for 1.

With mandatory remission,  a 2 year less a day sentence is done in  8 months...with no  parole conditions to cramp their style afterwards.

EDIT: took out probation from my "cramp" line


----------



## brihard (20 Jul 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Good explanation.....just need to add one thing that you would have no reason to deal with in your part of the system.
> 
> Sometimes they want to be remanded and stay, as they know that they are getting AT LEAST 2 days off sentence for every one served.  And of course sometimes they get the 3 for 1.
> 
> ...


Yup, I've definitely seen that game played. Good ol' 'time served' at sentencing.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jul 2022)

Killing people in Canada carries the same sentence as ramming a gate. 6 years.









						Military reservist who rammed Rideau Hall gate with truck sentenced to six years
					

A Manitoba man who rammed a gate at Rideau Hall before arming himself and heading on foot toward Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's home last July was sentenced Wednesday to six years in prison.



					www.ctvnews.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/woman-sentenced-2018-stabbing-death-colin-sutherland-1.6087041
		









						Sask. mother who killed newborn daughter sentenced to 6 years
					

A judge handed down a six-year sentence for a Kindersley woman who killed her newborn daughter.




					saskatoon.ctvnews.ca
				











						Woman sentenced to six years for fatally stabbing homeless hitchhiker
					

The sentence was double the three-year term agreed to by prosecutors and defence lawyers.




					calgaryherald.com
				





Wouldn't be surprised if Lich, Barber, or King get longer.


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## TacticalTea (20 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Killing people in Canada carries the same sentence as ramming a gate. 6 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Disgusting.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Disgusting.


And she's probably out in 10 months if she doesn't act like a moron in prison,.....20 if she does.


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## CBH99 (21 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Well, no, you guys are presenting it as if I can catch someone doing something, arrest and charge them, and then tell them 'LOL, rot in jail dumb dumb, your trial's February 2024", and then however it goes, too bad, so sad. It's not like that at all.
> 
> Firstly, the presumption is they will be released. For most offences, we can release someone on the spot with paperwork as long as we aren't concerned about repetition, the suspect's identification, their attendance in court, or the preservation of evidence. That means if I arrest a guy for beating his wife and I have grounds to believe he'll go right back and beat her again, I'll hold him in custody. If I catch someone smashing up a car, he has no ID and refuses to identify himself, I'll hold him. If I arrest and charge a guy and he's already out on bail, has an arrest warrant out for skipping court, and has a history of fail to appear in court, I'm holding him. If I arrest a guy for drug trafficking and we're still working on a search warrant for the stash house, and releasing him will result in a phone call and drugs getting flushed, I'm holding him.
> 
> ...


Fantastic explanation.  All of your posts about this has been very helpful, same with you Haggis.  

That helps put it in much better context.


----------



## Kilted (21 Jul 2022)

I saw that this hadn't been posted yet.  I wonder if the Tolkien estate or Sir Peter Jackson will have anything to say about their logo?








						Concerns as convoy-connected group establishes in Ottawa neighbourhood
					

Concerns are being raised about the United People of Canada, a self-described 'not-for-profit social enterprise organization' behind developments at a deconsecrated Ottawa church.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


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## Edward Campbell (25 Jul 2022)

Apparently this happened very early yesterday morning:


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## dangerboy (25 Jul 2022)

What is he protesting with an American Flag


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## Remius (25 Jul 2022)

dangerboy said:


> What is he protesting with an American Flag


Details are vague right now…heard something on the radio.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Jul 2022)

dangerboy said:


> What is he protesting with an American Flag


Heaven alone knows ... I've been says for months that the "protest/occupation" was, and remains, an inchoate response to a whole host of grievances, some real, many imagined, by the "Non-U"s (you have to be a certain age to get that reference) against the "U"s (AKA the Laurentian Elites and the chattering classes, and, and, and ...) ... I guess this is just part of it.


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## brihard (25 Jul 2022)

dangerboy said:


> What is he protesting with an American Flag


Nothing intelligent


----------



## Weinie (25 Jul 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Heaven alone knows ... I've been says for months that the "protest/occupation" was, and remains, an inchoate response to a whole host of grievances, some real, many imagined, by the "Non-U"s (you have to be a certain age to get that reference) against the "U"s (AKA the Laurentian Elites and the chattering classes, and, and, and ...) ... I guess this is just part of it.


A bunch of the protesters are staying in the hotel behind ours. Three police cars there at 7 a.m. this morning.


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## FSTO (25 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Details are vague right now…heard something on the radio.


They are supposedly honouring the sacrifices of the fallen by covering the tomb with a Canadian and US Flag. So dumb.

Time for a 24/7/365 sentry like the US? Yes, where do we get the bodies? And I cringe at the thought that we could not have the ability go and actually touch the memorial.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> They are supposedly honouring the sacrifices of the fallen by covering the tomb with a Canadian and US Flag. So dumb.
> 
> Time for a 24/7/365 sentry like the US? Yes, where do we get the bodies? And I cringe at the thought that we could not have the ability go and actually touch the memorial.


My "solution" remains to put the Tomb on Parliament Hill, inside, in Centre Block, in the Hall of Honour, as the spiritual and emotion centre of the Hall of Canada's Honour. Then, except on a few special occasions, it needn't be guarded - ceremonially.


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## FSTO (25 Jul 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> My "solution" remains to put the Tomb on Parliament Hill, inside, in Centre Block, in the Hall of Honour, as the spiritual and emotion centre of the Hall of Canada's Honour. Then, except on a few special occasions, it needn't be guarded - ceremonially.


I like your idea, but once again the assholes win and our nation becomes a little bit more a police state.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> They are supposedly honouring the sacrifices of the fallen by covering the tomb with a Canadian and US Flag. So dumb.
> 
> Time for a 24/7/365 sentry like the US? Yes, where do we get the bodies? And I cringe at the thought that we could not have the ability go and actually touch the memorial.


Then you end up with Cpl Klinger, Rainbow Bright, and Pinhead on ceremonial duty, all with unfitted DEUs and non aggressive rubber rifles.


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## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Apparently this happened very early yesterday morning:View attachment 72188


Whoever or whatever they were protesting in my mind THIS is not the way to do it. It doesn't matter if I agree with them or not.

You are DESECRATING the Tomb of The Unknown Soldier. For that reason I'd love to see them taken away by (insert police agency here) in cuffs.


----------



## Remius (25 Jul 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551531448800317440
Oh and this 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551382967888613378


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2022)

Politicizing a symbol of our - Canada's - sacrifice is not on. Period.

Go somewhere else - like Parliament Hill which is often the scene of protests and the like.


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## torg003 (25 Jul 2022)

Maybe it's time for the gov't to declare that the War Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are sacred ground and that no protests or political demonstrations are allowed there.  Make the first offence a hefty fine ($1500 or so) and add on jail time for further offences.  But that would mean that it would have to be guarded around the clock and they wouldn't want to incur the expense.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> Maybe it's time for the gov't to declare that the War Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are sacred ground and that no protests or political demonstrations are allowed there.  Make the first offence a hefty fine ($1500 or so) and add on jail time for further offences.  But that would mean that it would have to be guarded around the clock and they wouldn't want to incur the expense.


You can get a full array of ir capable motion sensor trail cams at cabellas for under $500


----------



## brihard (25 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> Maybe it's time for the gov't to declare that the War Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are sacred ground and that no protests or political demonstrations are allowed there.  Make the first offence a hefty fine ($1500 or so) and add on jail time for further offences.  But that would mean that it would have to be guarded around the clock and they wouldn't want to incur the expense.


That would likely die as a Charter breach. There’s already a Criminal Code offence that uniquely criminalizes mischief to war memorials, cenotaphs, etc. the threshold for “mischief” is “damage to, or obstruct enjoyment of property”. It’s a defensible prohibition. An outright criminalization of political expression on that patch of soil wouldn’t fly.

I’m not actually sure if the ground itself is owned by the National Capital Commission? The NCC has its own regulations that can levy fines for all manner of prohibited activity. If it’s their ground, they could effectively prohibit anything involving any sign not held by hand, and any amplified sound and such. Basically reduce it to stand there and shout and hold signs, subject of course to existing laws like breach of the peace, causing a disturbance, etc.


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## QV (26 Jul 2022)

So... anyone following Lich's bail review this morning? 🤣 By some accounts Judge Goodman eviscerated the decision by the Justice of the Peace and has set aside the detention order. New bail hearing immediately after lunch break.

The more this goes on, the more of a mockery of the (political) justice system this becomes.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> Maybe it's time for the gov't to declare that the War Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are sacred ground and that no protests or political demonstrations are allowed there.  Make the first offence a hefty fine ($1500 or so) and add on jail time for further offences.  But that would mean that it would have to be guarded around the clock and they wouldn't want to incur the expense.



OK, I'm no expert on 'desecration', but draping a flag on something isn't quite the same as jack hammering it to pieces.

Have the cops tell the guy to move along, and carry on.

I'm sorry, but the level of moral outrage this seems to be generating at a national media level is weird. If I was a conspiracy type, I'd be casting a jaundiced eye at the Liberal Party's ironic moral high-ground machine.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/otta...national-war-memorial-american-flag-1.6531711


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## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> So... anyone following Lich's bail review this morning? 🤣 By some accounts Judge Goodman eviscerated the decision by the Justice of the Peace and has set aside the detention order. New bail hearing immediately after lunch break.



On and off, yeah. Glen McGregor’s reporting on it live. I’m curious to hear what the crown intends to cross examine Lich and the Surety on, and what this new video is. I’m really curious to see Crown’s approach to arguing for continuing detention in the de novo hearing.  While the legal case on the original offences appears to be a very strong one, crown’s got an uphill battle to argue a continuing necessity to detain on any of the primary or secondary grounds, and judge doesn’t seem overly convinced of the tertiary. Sounds like about an hour of cross examination lined up for this afternoon.

In any case, a good example of how we have a generally good lay bench of JPs to deal with routine matters, subject to judicial review when challenged on applicable legal grounds.


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> OK, I'm no expert on 'desecration', but draping a flag on something isn't quite the same as jack hammering it to pieces.
> 
> Have the cops tell the guy to move along, and carry on.
> 
> ...


Yeah I don't see it either.

He draped an allied flag over it... Bit ill-advised and maladroit but far from desecration still.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Jul 2022)

An Ottawa JP wrote a damning description of bail court in Ottawa back in 2015; JPs overly deferential to the Crown, and attacked for asking questions from the bench.


----------



## Remius (26 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Yeah I don't see it either.
> 
> He draped an allied flag over it... Bit ill-advised and maladroit but far from desecration still.


And posted it on social media for “reasons”.  And in the dead of night.  A known convoy protester or what ever they are called now. 

You don’t sit on the tomb, stand on it, dance on it or cover it with anything.  

These clowns need to stop,  they are using it for their own political/protest agenda.  That in itself is enough of a desecration.


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Yeah I don't see it either.
> 
> He draped an allied flag over it... Bit ill-advised and maladroit but far from desecration still.


I believe the objection to his antics is more the politicizing of the tomb and the monument. This wasn’t some quiet and dignified show of respect for veterans. This was “look at me” bullshit leveraging the Tomb for a political cause.

Was it criminal? I don’t believe so. Was it ‘desecration’ in the sense of depriving a place of its sacred character, or treating it disrespectfully, or converting it to a profane use? Given their actual intent and objectives, yes I believe so.

Which is a nicer way of get your stupid bullshit off that man’s grave and don’t use our dead as a soapbox.


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> I believe the objection to his antics is more the politicizing of the tomb and the monument. This wasn’t some quiet and dignified show of respect for veterans. This was “look at me” bullshit leveraging the Tomb for a political cause.
> 
> Was it criminal? I don’t believe so. Was it ‘desecration’ in the sense of depriving a place of its sacred character, or treating it disrespectfully, or converting it to a profane use? Given their actual intent and objectives, yes I believe so.
> 
> Which is a nicer way of get your stupid bullshit off that man’s grave and don’t use our dead as a soapbox.


I can definitely agree with that. 

I just believe we ought not to unnecessarily embellish our words when describing reality, lest those words lose their meaning and weight.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I can definitely agree with that.
> 
> I just believe we ought not to unnecessarily embellish our words when describing reality, lest those words lose their meaning and weight.


I will embellish as long as I feel like it.

I will not stand for bullshit like this "protestor" using sacred ground to politicize his or her crap.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Jul 2022)

Not to excuse anybody's activities WRT The Tomb or the Memorial that are other than observance, acknowledgement and quiet reflection, perhaps their biggest problem is location.  They are located on what amounts to a large traffic island in the centre of a busy downtown intersection.  One of the benefits of that is it exposes them to visitors who might not otherwise see or be aware of them and what they stand for.  The downside is that the location seems to have become our version of Speaker's Corner.


----------



## QV (26 Jul 2022)

And... new bail hearing concludes, Lich has been released. Interesting comments from Justice Goodman.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jul 2022)

Any efforts towards adding security or keeping the monument away from protestors will inadvertently turn it into a beacon for them.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> And... new bail hearing concludes, Lich has been released. Interesting comments from Justice Goodman.


Mind posting them?


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

And Tamara Lich just got bail again.

For those curious, the judge, Justice Andrew Goodman of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, has been on the bench since 2010. Prior to that he was a crown prosecutor for 12 years, and was a police officer with the RCMP for 20 years before that. So he’s seen a thing or two.

EDIT TO ADD: Oof. And a Rebel News editor (Sheila Gunn Reid) breached the publication ban a few hours ago regarding the identity of the surety. This came to the attention of the court right at the end of proceedings. The judge is gonna take that matter up tomorrow. Sucks to be her.


----------



## FSTO (26 Jul 2022)

There are now a couple of calls on my sm feed to cover up the NWM under a glass case or something like that. I'm very much against this. Putting up barriers to all public buildings, memorials, etc is just wrong and goes against all ideas of a free and open society. That the actions of a few idiots cause the millions who would never dare to think of causing harm be barred from viewing or walking amongst items is an anathema to me


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> There are now a couple of calls on my sm feed to cover up the NWM under a glass case or something like that. I'm very much against this. Putting up barriers to all public buildings, memorials, etc is just wrong and goes against all ideas of a free and open society. That the actions of a few idiots cause the millions who would never dare to think of causing harm be barred from viewing or walking amongst items is an anathema to me


Sounds like the idea Chris Richardson is floating. I like the guy, but very much disagreed on this. The tomb simply needs a security guard with a radio, if anything. If someone’s about to be dumb, tell them to bugger off. That’ll deal with 95% of it, and the other 5% will probably have been announced ahead of time anyway.


----------



## QV (26 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Mind posting them?


Best to go find the journalists live posting from the hearing on Twitter. Read the threads. Goodman believes the Crown does not have a strong case (the breach case).


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> Best to go find the journalists live posting from the hearing on Twitter. Read the threads. Goodman believes the Crown does not have a strong case (the breach case).


Glen MacGregor (CTV I think?) was my go-to. There’s also James Bowie, a criminal defense lawyer who has been following these cases closely and who writes very good commentary, and has addition professional insight that reporters lack. Both are easy to find on Twitter.


----------



## QV (26 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Glen MacGregor (CTV I think?) was my go-to. There’s also James Bowie, a criminal defense lawyer who has been following these cases closely and who writes very good commentary, and has addition professional insight that reporters lack. Both are easy to find on Twitter.


Yep. But read more than one... it is interesting to see what gets repeated and what doesn't or how it's spun from one to the next.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> There are now a couple of calls on my sm feed to cover up the NWM under a glass case or something like that. I'm very much against this. Putting up barriers to all public buildings, memorials, etc is just wrong and goes against all ideas of a free and open society. That the actions of a few idiots cause the millions who would never dare to think of causing harm be barred from viewing or walking amongst items is an anathema to me


I wonder if Beechwood would be a more reverent place for the Tomb to be relocated to? The issue I see now is the proximity to Parliament; protest is essential to the spirit of a democratic society and Parliament Hill is the place to do it. The NWM and the Tomb often get caught in the crossfire or worse, used as a political prop.


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> Yep. But read more than one... it is interesting to see what gets repeated and what doesn't or how it's spun from one to the next.


I literally named two, which last I checked is in fact more than one.

I’ll also be watching for the actual written decision on CanLII. I always find the judge’s own written decision to be the most useful and informative, albeit it’s inevitably delayed a bit.


----------



## FSTO (26 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Sounds like the idea Chris Richardson is floating. I like the guy, but very much disagreed on this. The tomb simply needs a security guard with a radio, if anything. If someone’s about to be dumb, tell them to bugger off. That’ll deal with 95% of it, and the other 5% will probably have been announced ahead of time anyway.


It was him.


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> It was him.


Very good dude. He’s done some good things and is passionate on veterans stuff. Just a swing and miss on this one IMHO. I wouldn’t want to see any significant visual change to the site.


----------



## FSTO (26 Jul 2022)

He can get a bit preachy at times but his heart is in a good place. He lives in the states now?


----------



## brihard (26 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> He can get a bit preachy at times but his heart is in a good place. He lives in the states now?


For quite some time. Interesting picking his brain on some stuff.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> Yep. But read more than one... it is interesting to see what gets repeated and what doesn't or how it's spun from one to the next.


Good way to see the different "glasses" different observers wear when watching the same event, for sure.


----------



## QV (27 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Mind posting them?


Ok, ok... here is a good one. Justice Goodman: "no court should try to control the possession of political views."

You probably won't see that zinger repeated by CTV, CBC or any of the pro-mandate crowd here.


----------



## Remius (31 Jul 2022)

Sacred site or rallying point? The politicization of Canada's National War Memorial
					

The sacrifices of Canadians who fought and died for democracy and freedom during the Korean War were honoured during a small ceremony last week at the National War Memorial. But throughout the year, Canadians have seen far different images of the memorial, including acts of vandalism, and as a...




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Food for thought.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jul 2022)

There's already too much stuff off limits because someone once did something someone else found objectionable.  High time we stopped taking the easy way out by forbidding everything someone doesn't like.


----------



## Kirkhill (31 Jul 2022)

TRIGGER WARNING:  The article taken from The Federalist.  Read at your own peril.









						Pay Attention To The Dutch Farmer Protests. America Is Next
					

The same climate policies that are set to destroy private agriculture in the Netherlands are eventually coming to America.




					thefederalist.com
				




The Canadian context...

From the article - 



> What Rutte and his government are doing to Dutch farmers, Schumer and Biden are planning to do to American farmers and American industries.....So pay attention to the roadside fires and blocked highways and mass civic unrest in places like the Netherlands and Sri Lanka. America is next.



America is not next.

Canada is next.









						NP View: Trudeau ploughs ahead with fertilizer cut, while turning a blind eye to human suffering
					

The Liberals' decision to force farmers to reduce fertilizer use at a time of high inflation and increasing food insecurity is another example of a government…




					nationalpost.com
				




But, hey, it's all right.  We can ignore these folks as "unacceptable", a "fringe minority".  Trudeau, Rutter and Ardern hold the Truth.



> *Corporatism* is a collectivist[1] political ideology which advocates the organization of society by corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, on the basis of their common interests.[2][3] The term is derived from the Latin _corpus_, or "body". The hypothesis that society will reach a peak of harmonious functioning when each of its divisions efficiently performs its designated function, as a body's organs individually contributing its general health and functionality, lies at the center of corporatist theory.





> Corporatism developed during the 1850s in response to the rise of classical liberalism and Marxism, as it advocated cooperation between the classes instead of class conflict. Corporatism became one of the main tenets of fascism, and Benito Mussolini's fascist regime in Italy advocated the collective management of the economy by state officials by integrating large interest groups under the state; however, the more democratic neo-corporatism often embraced Tripartism.[4][5]





> *Tripartism* is an economic system of neo-corporatism based on a mixed economy and tripartite contracts between employers' organizations, trade unions, and the government of a country.[1][2] Each is to act as a social partner to create economic policy through cooperation, consultation, negotiation, and compromise.[1] In Tripartism, the government has a large role in the economy and engages in negotiations between labor unions and business interest groups to establish economic policy.[3][4]
> 
> Tripartism became a popular form of economic policy during the economic crisis of the 1930s.[5] Tripartism was supported by a number of different political movements at this time, including: Catholic social teaching, fascism, and democratic political movements.[5] Tripartism is a prominent economic policy in Europe, particularly where Christian Democratic parties influenced by Catholic social teaching have held power; it is a core part of the Nordic model seen in the economic systems of Scandinavia and the Benelux that were put in place by social democratic governments.


----------



## Remius (31 Jul 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> There's already too much stuff off limits because someone once did something someone else found objectionable.  High time we stopped taking the easy way out by forbidding everything someone doesn't like.


I’m not ok with anyone politicizing that particular monument.  Maybe some are, I’m not.  And even more shameful is that some veterans seem to think it’s ok. 

I don’t want it to be moved out of sight, I’d hate to see it become a security zone requiring special access.  I just want be people to stop being douche bags.  Somethings should remain outside of the political realm.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Jul 2022)

> Somethings should remain outside of the political realm.



I wish.  But a situation in which some people insist on politicizing virtually everything is unstable (won't remain limited to only those people).  The border between "activists" and "indifferents" keeps moving in a way that enlarges the former region and shrinks the latter one.


----------



## dapaterson (31 Jul 2022)

And now the fine, not at all delusional sovcit folks are planning a blockade of the RCMP Depot starting 11 Sept.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553543671668125696


----------



## Kilted (31 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> They are supposedly honouring the sacrifices of the fallen by covering the tomb with a Canadian and US Flag. So dumb.
> 
> Time for a 24/7/365 sentry like the US? Yes, where do we get the bodies? And I cringe at the thought that we could not have the ability go and actually touch the memorial.


Well, maybe sentry during the normal time and a 24-hour police presence at other times.  Perhaps someone else can remember, but were there other locations considered for the tomb?  

The Brits were pretty smart putting the tomb in Westminister Abbey, which prevents most of these issues.


----------



## Remius (31 Jul 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And now the fine, not at all delusional sovcit folks are planning a blockade of the RCMP Depot starting 11 Sept.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553543671668125696


Sounds like an excellent training opportunity for all sorts of stuff.


----------



## RangerRay (31 Jul 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And now the fine, not at all delusional sovcit folks are planning a blockade of the RCMP Depot starting 11 Sept.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553543671668125696


Jesus H. Christ… 🤦‍♂️


----------



## brihard (31 Jul 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And now the fine, not at all delusional sovcit folks are planning a blockade of the RCMP Depot starting 11 Sept.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553543671668125696


I see no way this plan can possibly go wrong.

Marcus Ray has been _consistently_ full of shit; highly fictitious shit. Seeing him actually attempting to commit to a time and place to do something is a little bit refreshing. But it’s a dumb time, a dumb place, and a dumb something.

My concern is more with how many of his followers seem to be of the “too late for peaceful measures” persuasion. This dude’s gonna instigate actual violence and get someone hurt if he keeps it up.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> I see no way this plan can possibly go wrong.
> 
> Marcus Ray has been _consistently_ full of shit; highly fictitious shit. Seeing him actually attempting to commit to a time and place to do something is a little bit refreshing. But it’s a dumb time, a dumb place, and a dumb something.
> 
> My concern is more with how many of his followers seem to be of the “too late for peaceful measures” persuasion. This dude’s gonna instigate actual violence and get someone hurt if he keeps it up.


Who is this clown or who are these clowns? What they plan to do I suspect is illegal. Or is it?


----------



## Kilted (31 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Who is this clown or who are these clowns? What they plan to do I suspect is illegal. Or is it?


Could they have picked a more threatening date?


----------



## brihard (31 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Who is this clown or who are these clowns? What they plan to do I suspect is illegal. Or is it?


Hard right sovereign citizen type with somewhat of an online following. He thinks heMs gonna get the police and military to join him in an uprising against the government. Same dude’s been peddling ideas of taking over a court and forcing a judge to… it’s not precisely clear what, but it results in arrests and convictions for treason and such.

He’s a joke and an idiot, but still a dangerous one..


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Hard right sovereign citizen type with somewhat of an online following. He thinks heMs gonna get the police and military to join him in an uprising against the government. Same dude’s been peddling ideas of taking over a court and forcing a judge to… it’s not precisely clear what, but it results in arrests and convictions for treason and such.
> 
> He’s a joke and an idiot, but still a dangerous one..



Agreed. People like that can be unpredictable and dangerous. Delusional as phuque too.

September 11? 

He’s made at least one enemy - more probably- on here already


----------



## lenaitch (31 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> Well, maybe sentry during the normal time and a 24-hour police presence at other times.  Perhaps someone else can remember, but were there other locations considered for the tomb?
> 
> The Brits were pretty smart putting the tomb in Westminister Abbey, which prevents most of these issues.


Other than a ceremonial purpose, I'm hard pressed to think of a worse use of military or police resources.


Kilted said:


> Could they have picked a more threatening date?


Using words like "orders" and "muster" - sounds so official-y.  Other than possibly some students and a duty watch, who do they expect to be there on a Sunday?


----------



## brihard (31 Jul 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Other than a ceremonial purpose, I'm hard pressed to think of a worse use of military or police resources.
> 
> Using words like "orders" and "muster" - sounds so official-y.  Other than possibly some students and a duty watch, who do they expect to be there on a Sunday?


RCMP has a public order unit, other divisional assets, and a lot of general duty or roadable cops based out of Regina, plus Regina Police Service. They Depot grounds are fenced off and not open to the public other than via controlled access. Not sure how they imagine this going, but it won’t match reality.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> RCMP has a public order unit, other divisional assets, and a lot of general duty or roadable cops based out of Regina, plus Regina Police Service. They Depot grounds are fenced off and not open to the public other than via controlled access. Not sure how they imagine this going, but it won’t match reality.


It sounds like this huge rally that is supposed to surround the RCMP will be one of those "about six people showed up and promptly left when the Mounties approached them"


----------



## brihard (31 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It sounds like this huge rally that is supposed to surround the RCMP will be one of those "about six people showed up and promptly left when the Mounties approached them"


Yup, sounds about right.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It sounds like this huge rally that is supposed to surround the RCMP will be one of those "about six people showed up and promptly left when the Mounties approached them"


Team Takeover Area 51:  “Hold our beers!”  😂


----------



## Quirky (1 Aug 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> TRIGGER WARNING:  The article taken from The Federalist.  Read at your own peril.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Largely not enforceable. Who’s going to monitor everything, the Farm police?


----------



## Furniture (1 Aug 2022)

Quirky said:


> Largely not enforceable. Who’s going to monitor everything, the Farm police?


You don't need to monitor everyone, you just need to crush a few, the rest will follow along so they don't lose everything.

I think QDM did a great video talking about why this climate foolishness related to farming is unserious foolishness from urbanites who don't seem to understand that actions have consequences. 






Warning, there is some language that some may find offensive.


----------



## GK .Dundas (1 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It sounds like this huge rally that is supposed to surround the RCMP will be one of those "about six people showed up and promptly left when the Mounties approached them"


You mean when " When the Mountie approached them ."
And promptly will began posting about how they were oppressed they'd been by the jack booted  mandate enforcer ...His good morning wasn't cheerful enough. Nor did he grovel sufficiently before these Partisans of Freedom (tm.)


----------



## RangerRay (1 Aug 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> You mean when " When the Mountie approached them ."
> And promptly will began posting about how they were oppressed they'd been the jack booted  mandate enforcer ...His good morning wasn't cheerful enough. Nor did he grovel sufficiently before these Partisans of Freedom (tm.)


Don’t forget they will promptly compare themselves to war veterans “fighting for freedom “…


----------



## brihard (1 Aug 2022)

There’s very strong anti-police sentiment from Marcus Ray’s followers. A lot of them saw February in Ottawa as a breaking point after which they cannot have any hope that the police will help them with their intended/desired coup… Which is maybe the first intelligent thought they’ve had. Some still hold out hope for the army. Others have come to the conclusion that they will have to fight us. Interestingly, Ray’s continued desire to bring police onboard is creating a schism between him and the more extreme wing of his followers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Don’t forget they will promptly compare themselves to war veterans “fighting for freedom “…


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2022)

> Saskatchewan-born Daniel [Danny] Bulford who was an RCMP officer with RCMP National Division Emergency Response Team in Ottawa and was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s personal sniper, has urged Canadians not to join the Constitutional Sheriffs.











						Protests planned at police stations across country
					

Groups of ex-military and former police officers will converge on police stations across Canada on Sept. 11 to protest the World Economic Forum. The organizers call themselves Constitutional Sheriffs.




					www.sasktoday.ca
				




The PM has his own personal sniper?


----------



## dapaterson (1 Aug 2022)

Hard as it may be to believe, some folks who leave the military or RCMP have been known to embellish their tales of their service.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Aug 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> You mean when " When the Mountie approached them ."
> And promptly will began posting about how they were oppressed they'd been by the jack booted  mandate enforcer ...His good morning wasn't cheerful enough. Nor did he grovel sufficiently before these Partisans of Freedom (tm.)


"I'm bein repressed! See the opression inherint in the system!!"

Peasant to King Arthur, King of the Britons....


----------



## TacticalTea (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Protests planned at police stations across country
> 
> 
> Groups of ex-military and former police officers will converge on police stations across Canada on Sept. 11 to protest the World Economic Forum. The organizers call themselves Constitutional Sheriffs.
> ...


Spots the birds for him when he needs to impress his wife, deflates the wheels of automobilists that cut him off, makes his grouping look good at the range, mimics a Toronto gang shoot when he needs to fart discretely, etc...

The benefits of a personal sniper!


----------



## GK .Dundas (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Protests planned at police stations across country
> 
> 
> Groups of ex-military and former police officers will converge on police stations across Canada on Sept. 11 to protest the World Economic Forum. The organizers call themselves Constitutional Sheriffs.
> ...


Two nannies, a chef and a personal sniper . Sounds about right for  the domestic staff for any Prime Minister.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Protests planned at police stations across country
> 
> 
> Groups of ex-military and former police officers will converge on police stations across Canada on Sept. 11 to protest the World Economic Forum. The organizers call themselves Constitutional Sheriffs.
> ...


 Well not quite. I found this surfing the internet:



> In July 2013, Daniel was transferred to the RCMP National Division Emergency Response Team in Ottawa, Ontario. During his time on the National Division ERT, _Daniel’s primary role was sniper / observer, with the majority of his time spent supporting the protection of the Prime Minister and other internationally protected persons_.



Sounds like he would be with one of the sniper teams keeping an overwatch of the PM and other international dignitaries.

The rest of his bio can be found here.


----------



## RangerRay (1 Aug 2022)

> Constitutional Sheriffs


FFS, now we’re importing this shit from the US?  🤦‍♂️ 









						Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				






> The movement has some ideological similarities with the self-styled patriot movementand sovereign citizen movement, and some members of those movements also espouse "constitutional sheriff" ideology.[7][1] The "constitutional sheriff" or "county supremacy" movement itself arose from the far-right Posse Comitatus, a racist and anti-Semitic group of the 1970s and 1980s that also defined the county sheriff as the highest "legitimate" authority in the country,[1][8]and was characterized by paramilitary figures and the promotion of conspiracy theories.[1]* Sheriffs are not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution.[9] The ideological basis of the sheriffs' movement is instead based on various incorrect historical and legal claims, relying on a pretense that the historic powers of the high sheriff of an English shireapply in the USA regardless of subsequent legal developments.**[1]*


----------



## brihard (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Protests planned at police stations across country
> 
> 
> Groups of ex-military and former police officers will converge on police stations across Canada on Sept. 11 to protest the World Economic Forum. The organizers call themselves Constitutional Sheriffs.
> ...


Decidedly not.



Retired AF Guy said:


> Well not quite. I found this surfing the internet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More accurate, though the ERT in Ottawa fills a number of roles and support to PM is just one of them.

His story is a sad one. Very solid reputation, good cop, and a nice guy. He went/got dragged down a rabbit hole.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

I don’t know any better.  But my tin foil hat would almost have him be a plant. Make him credible to that side while he provides info.  Arrested but not charged would make me question that. But meh.  I probably watch too much tv.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> There’s very strong anti-police sentiment from Marcus Ray’s followers. A lot of them saw February in Ottawa as a breaking point after which they cannot have any hope that the police will help them with their intended/desired coup… Which is maybe the first intelligent thought they’ve had. Some still hold out hope for the army. Others have come to the conclusion that they will have to fight us. Interestingly, Ray’s continued desire to bring police onboard is creating a schism between him and the more extreme wing of his followers.


I find it interesting that he’s trying to downplay earlier comments attributed to him to try and woo people to his cause.


----------



## lenaitch (1 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> RCMP has a public order unit, other divisional assets, and a lot of general duty or roadable cops based out of Regina, plus Regina Police Service. They Depot grounds are fenced off and not open to the public other than via controlled access. Not sure how they imagine this going, but it won’t match reality.


I'm aware.  My point was if they surround the Depot fence and, as they claim, intend to peacefully and legally make demands of those inside, on a Sunday, who's going to be there ('If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sounds?' - type of thing).  Similar to protests in front of Parliament or a legislature.  Sure it's symbolice, but On a Sunday?  Really?


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Hard as it may be to believe, some folks who leave the military or RCMP have been known to embellish their tales of their service.



And some don't even have to leave the service to do that


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (2 Aug 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And some don't even have to leave the service to do that



You just outed the Faux SAS Colonel with all their Wings 😄


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Aug 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You just outed the Faux SAS Colonel with all their Wings 😄



To be fair... when I saw him he was wearing them on an unauthorized British Army windproof, and the British aren't allowed to wear badges on windproofs (unlike PARA smocks etc), so that balances it out a bit I think


----------



## Booter (2 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Hard as it may be to believe, some folks who leave the military or RCMP have been known to embellish their tales of their service.


Danny hasn’t embellished things himself, he’s a straight shooter and a good guy and not the type to inflate himself. 

It is unfortunate what he’s come to represent beyond his intentions. 

The media has made his career sound bizarre. He was indeed CAT and working in the security team. What that means to people who watch too many movies when it’s said out loud is another thing altogether


----------



## RangerRay (2 Aug 2022)

Mark Milke is no “CINO squish”. 









						Mark Milke — Memo to the right: Stop acting like the left
					

Mark Milke: The left has long engaged in anti-reality thinking and behaviour. Now the right is in danger of making the same mistake. Read on




					financialpost.com


----------



## McG (12 Aug 2022)

Apparently, cabinet was provided with a dollar value as to the daily cost of the convoy protests on the Canadian GDP, and this cost was provided in the days before the decision to invoke the emergencies act.

This would seem to be very relavent information for the subsequent special parliamentary committee … except the committee was told that cost was not calculated.









						Convoy blockades cost Canadian economy billions in reduced GDP, documents show
					

Opposition questions why Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland declined to provide such figures when asked directly in June




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Aug 2022)

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542639436520898562


This, by Adrienne Clarkson, might be apropos.


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> This, by Adrienne Clarkson, might be apropos.


I have met this Colonel in Chief several times. She has always made time to say hello to my wife and I, and other families of the fallen. Edit to add: actually she sits down with Shirl and they have a short chat. I keep my mouth shut. 

 She hits the nail on the head. In my mind its sacred ground.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> This, by Adrienne Clarkson, might be apropos.



Oh man, this is right on target... 

"Canada’s War Memorial is a reminder of selfless sacrifice, not a vaudeville stage for loud-mouthed ignoramuses"


----------



## dapaterson (17 Aug 2022)

There are indications that the planned purchase of a deconsecrated church in Ottawa may not be going as planned.  Reports that the group purportedly purchasing the property are being evicted for non payment of rent.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560040938193436675


----------



## Navy_Pete (17 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> There are indications that the planned purchase of a deconsecrated church in Ottawa may not be going as planned.  Reports that the group purportedly purchasing the property are being evicted for non payment of rent.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560040938193436675


Had that not been converted into an Art centre? Just wondering how this links to the convoy.

It's unfortunate they announced today they will be closing the doors.


----------



## dapaterson (17 Aug 2022)

The church had been converted to an arts centre; the owners of the arts centre had placed it on the market and a tentative sales agreement was (is?) in place with a convoy-adjacent group, who apparently have been renting in advance of the sale, and who appear to have not paid their commercial rent.


----------



## dapaterson (17 Aug 2022)

Current real estate listing: Check out this listing

In case you have $6M in spare change, and want $3,375 in monthly property taxes...


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> The church had been converted to an arts centre; the owners of the arts centre had placed it on the market and a tentative sales agreement was (is?) in place with a convoy-adjacent group, who apparently have been renting in advance of the sale, and who appear to have not paid their commercial rent.


Ahhhh…commercial rental…


----------



## dapaterson (17 Aug 2022)

Exactly; at 16 days after rent is owed, the owner can change the locks and seize property that's still inside (if I understand correctly).


----------



## Navy_Pete (17 Aug 2022)

This is a pretty optimistic view from the negotiator; at any given point there were at least 3-4 completely unrelated groups claiming to be the leaders of the convoy, plus a bunch of completely unrelated factions doing their own thing, and they couldn't even agree on what they wanted, or what they were protesting for. Also given that he calls Watson a 'very credible, respected mayor' pretty much undercuts his argument.

He may be right that the emergency act was an over reaction, but there were multiple announcements of deals, changes etc that never took place and the City of Ottawas response was about a month of dogging it and pearl clutching vice doing anything effective. When it was a random 21 year old getting a court injunction to stop the 24 hour honking vice the City, was a pretty clear sign they were not in any kind of control. Until the emergency act was brought in f-all happened for a month, and we were all Balcony Ricky at that point wanting pretty much anyone to put their big kid pants on and actually do something before things got even more out of hand.

This whole thing was such a total waste of time and didn't actually accomplish anything.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fr...-lich-keith-wilson-deal-dean-french-1.6552820


> Negotiator behind deal with Freedom Convoy says Ottawa was too quick to use emergency powers​​'History will show this was a total overreaction' — Dean French​Guy Quenneville, Stephen Hoff  · CBC News  · Posted: Aug 17, 2022 7:17 PM ET | Last Updated: 12 minutes ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brihard (17 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> There are indications that the planned purchase of a deconsecrated church in Ottawa may not be going as planned.  Reports that the group purportedly purchasing the property are being evicted for non payment of rent.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560040938193436675


Delicious. I suspect the OPS members working the Market will have a bit of ongoing stupidity to deal with for a few days, but commercial rental law is pretty merciless.

Buds who was making veiled threats about having guys on scene when the locksmith comes back is picking a fight he can’t win.


----------



## Remius (18 Aug 2022)

Ontario mayor fires back at conspiracy theorists who tried to arrest police officers
					

An Ontario mayor had some harsh words for protesters who attempted to place local police officers under arrest Saturday.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				




Other convoy related weirdos…


----------



## RangerRay (18 Aug 2022)

Looked like those guys were just starting up their own “security force”. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/united-people-of-canada-st-brigids-security-force-1.6546148


----------



## RangerRay (18 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Ontario mayor fires back at conspiracy theorists who tried to arrest police officers
> 
> 
> An Ontario mayor had some harsh words for protesters who attempted to place local police officers under arrest Saturday.
> ...


Great. Fucking “sovereign citizens”…


----------



## brihard (18 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Looked like those guys were just starting up their own “security force”.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/united-people-of-canada-st-brigids-security-force-1.6546148


They’ll run smack into Ontario’s pretty unforgiving legislation around the training and licensure of security guards if they try.

In any case, looks like their purchase of the church fell through. It’s back listed for sale again. They’ve posted some utterly nonsense public release full of legal woo, but they’re gonna get bounced quickly I expect.


----------



## dapaterson (18 Aug 2022)

Non payment of rent.  Failure to secure liability insurance per the terms of the lease.  Unapproved modifications to a heritage building.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560327133536440322


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Aug 2022)

They get a freebie five days to remove their stuff.  The CTA allows a landlord to seek distraint (aka distress, ie. seizure of sufficient chattel to remedy the arrears) upon default, so they have been provided more time than legislation requires.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Aug 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Ahhhh…commercial rental…
> 
> View attachment 72570


Unlike tenant rights here, you truly don't want to be a Landlord.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Aug 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Unlike tenant rights here, you truly don't want to be a Landlord.


In Ontario, there is a significant difference between the Commercial and Residential Tenancy Acts.  A residential case of arrears would take months and likely multiple hearings at the Landlord and Tenant Board (LTB).  Commercial arrears are pretty fast and straightforward.


----------



## lenaitch (18 Aug 2022)

It's (was?) their "Embassy".  For those who care:









						Diverse Intergenerational Fraternal Organization | The United People Of Canada
					

The United People of Canada: Together, through appreciation and celebration of our unique culture and heritage, we offer a network of locations across Canada - and beyond.  We build strong communities, offering safe access to education, networking, community events and new friendships.




					www.tupoc.ca
				




They even have swag!  They are listed as an 'ally' on the Freedom Rising webpage:






						Freedom Rising
					






					freedomrising.info


----------



## lenaitch (18 Aug 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Unlike tenant rights here, you truly don't want to be a residential Landlord.


To be more precise.

In Ontario, there is a 'right of tenancy', which means once a tenant is in someplace, it takes an extensive and bureaucratic process to boot them out.


----------



## RangerRay (18 Aug 2022)

Looks like these guys are going to rely on their pseudo-legal theories to stay at the church. Good luck! 









						Eviction spat erupts at 'freedom movement' church over alleged non-payment of rent
					

A bailiff attended a former church in Lowertown, now home to The United People of Canada (TUPOC), threatening to change the church's locks




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## RangerRay (18 Aug 2022)

More on those goofs in Peterborough. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/protest-peterborough-arrest-special-investigation-1.6552575


----------



## brihard (18 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Looks like these guys are going to rely on their pseudo-legal theories to stay at the church. Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They’re promising to initiate a private prosecution tomorrow, which should be hilarious. No indication of which criminal offences they allege or who the purported accused are.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> More on those goofs in Peterborough.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/protest-peterborough-arrest-special-investigation-1.6552575


Prosecute vigorously


----------



## Retired AF Guy (19 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Looks like these guys are going to rely on their pseudo-legal theories to stay at the church. Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting to see what happens next; Landlord turns off electricity/water/etc?


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The PM has his own personal sniper?


As opposed to the duty sniper from the GD sniper pool?

Circling back 'round to everyone's fave emergency act declaration, here's your chance to speak your piece to power (what'll happen to your piece, well, YMMV I suspect) ...








						Commission Accepting Public Submissions
					

On April 25, 2022, the Government of Canada established the Public Order Emergency Commission to inquire into the circumstances that led to the declaration of emergency that was in place from February 14-23, 2022, and the measures taken for dealing with the emergency.




					publicorderemergencycommission.ca
				



Link to the questions you can answer & where to send your response








						Share Your Views
					

On April 25, 2022, the Government of Canada established the Public Order Emergency Commission to inquire into the circumstances that led to the declaration of emergency that was in place from February 14-23, 2022, and the measures taken for dealing with the emergency.




					publicorderemergencycommission.ca
				



Archived link to the questions here as well - write soon, write often!


----------



## RangerRay (19 Aug 2022)

Although this story is from 2013, it definitely rhymes with the situation at St. Brigid’s. A tenant stiffs the landlord and claims the rented townhouse is an “embassy”.  Surprise surprise, the tenant is a “Freeman-on-the-Land/Sovereign Citizen” and uses legal fiction to delay his eviction. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-home-declared-embassy-by-freeman-1.1863921
		


I am guessing Ontario commercial tenancy legislation is less forgiving than Alberta residential tenancy legislation.


----------



## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> Interesting to see what happens next; Landlord turns off electricity/water/etc?


I watched the whole interview with that lady. 

By the end of it, my thoughts are that there are very troubled people in that organisation.  And that they are definitely not what they are trying to portray themselves as.


----------



## RangerRay (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> I watched the whole interview with that lady.
> 
> By the end of it, my thoughts are that there are very troubled people in that organisation.  And that they are definitely not what they are trying to portray themselves as.


Yep. See above. My guess is they fell for “sovereign citizen” pseudo-legal theories and they will find out the hard way that the courts have no patience for it. In the meantime, the landlord, bailiffs, police officers, and other officials involved will probably become the targets of the group’s paper terrorism. 






						Paper Terrorism | Center on Extremism
					






					extremismterms.adl.org


----------



## brihard (19 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Although this story is from 2013, it definitely rhymes with the situation at St. Brigid’s. A tenant stiffs the landlord and claims the rented townhouse is an “embassy”.  Surprise surprise, the tenant is a “Freeman-on-the-Land/Sovereign Citizen” and uses legal fiction to delay his eviction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Commercial tenancy is quite unforgiving. They should be out pretty soon.


----------



## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> Commercial tenancy is quite unforgiving. They should be out pretty soon.


I’m sure the people of lower town will be happy about that.  They have enough problems already.


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Aug 2022)

I think it's pretty hilarious their acronym is TUPOC (The United People of Canada), and also that while the reporter was there talking to them, a bylaw officer ticketed the TUPOC spokesperson's car for exceeding the 1 hour parking limit (after a blanket warning the day before). Seems like someone also tried to break into the separate rectory, so police are investigating  that.

Some genius also decided to start doing unauthorized construction on the church, which is a registered heritage building; those fines can be huge.

What a bunch of idiots; they almost need a running montage of Balcony Ricky.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Aug 2022)

It's disappointing that police a Crown services are often quick to write off incidents like this as civil matters.  Lease or no, a decent investigation and bold Crown should be able to support a criminal charge; 'theft by conversion' for changing the locks and denying her right of entry as a landlord, for a start.

If you have the time (it's rather long) and interest, the 'Meads' decision out of Alberta is an interesting and oft-citing ruling on the arguments and tactics employed by so-called 'sovereign citizens'.


----------



## Kilted (20 Aug 2022)

lenaitch said:


> It's disappointing that police a Crown services are often quick to write off incidents like this as civil matters.  Lease or no, a decent investigation and bold Crown should be able to support a criminal charge; 'theft by conversion' for changing the locks and denying her right of entry as a landlord, for a start.
> 
> If you have the time (it's rather long) and interest, the 'Meads' decision out of Alberta is an interesting and oft-citing ruling on the arguments and tactics employed by so-called 'sovereign citizens'.


I remember mentioning that case in a Facebook argument with someone who was trying to say that an article of the Magna Carta that was repealed in 1225 said that he didn't have to wear a mask.


----------



## Kilted (23 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Ontario mayor fires back at conspiracy theorists who tried to arrest police officers
> 
> 
> An Ontario mayor had some harsh words for protesters who attempted to place local police officers under arrest Saturday.
> ...


I'm not sure if the criminal code deals with "pretenders", but I'm pretty sure that the common law has dealt with it before, and if I remember correctly, there was a pretty stiff penalty.


----------



## Haggis (24 Aug 2022)

Regarding TUPOC's occupation, this is not a good image for Ottawa Police.


----------



## dangerboy (24 Aug 2022)

To this day I still do not understand how a gesture that meant Okay for quite a long time got turned into a white power symbol. Very confusing, at least to me.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Aug 2022)

Cultural appropriation.  I ignore them.


----------



## TacticalTea (24 Aug 2022)

Haggis said:


> Regarding TUPOC's occupation, this is not a good image for Ottawa Police.
> 
> View attachment 72731


Is there a difference between that symbol and the ''OK'' sign? 

Contrary to the adage, this still picture doesn't say all that much...

Seems to me the gullible individuals ''raising concerns'' were just successfully trolled by 4chan users. Those individuals being associated with the media and deep state by their political opponents, the latter may have taken up the gesture in some contexts as a symbol of opposition.


----------



## Haggis (24 Aug 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Is there a difference between that symbol and the ''OK'' sign?


I thought of that, too.  And I would've never associated this gesture with white power had I not received this photo.  That being said, I don't recall the last time I saw a member of today's generation using the "OK" sign.  Most use the thumbs up.


TacticalTea said:


> Contrary to the adage, this still picture doesn't say all that much...


Context is everything, and it is lacking in this case, but the person who sent it to me is a respected former CO who I have always known to be a critical thinker and level-headed.


TacticalTea said:


> Seems to me the gullible individuals ''raising concerns'' were just successfully trolled by 4chan users. Those individuals being associated with the media and deep state by their political opponents, the latter may have taken up the gesture in some contexts as a symbol of opposition.


But it's out there on the Internet and now OPS had to deal with it regardless of source or context.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Aug 2022)

I use the "OK" symbol all the time..........when did someone decide it meant anything else??  'Cause I didn't get that memo....


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Aug 2022)

> I saw a member of today's generation using the "OK" sign.  Most use the thumbs up.



The scuba diving community probably has an opinion on both.


----------



## Navy_Pete (24 Aug 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I use the "OK" symbol all the time..........when did someone decide it meant anything else??  'Cause I didn't get that memo....


Someone started it as a joke (on 8chan or some other dumb board?) that it made the 'WP' symbol for white power and were running around being edge lords. Then actual white supremacists started using it as an actual WP symbol. I think that's mostly in the US and in a certain age group, but one of those stupid meme trends.

Similarly, not even sure what it was called, but there was something stupid going around about twenty years ago with guys making that symbol upside down around waist level, and if you saw it, you were 'caught' and got a nut shot for it. So dumb, but was funny when I was in my early 20s I guess. So was a lot of other stupid things that would probably get me canceled today, so glad I grew up doing stupid things before cell phone cameras and social media enshrines it forever on the interwebs.

And sometimes it's just the okay symbol, so I guess context is everything. Sometimes it's just easiest to not ovethink things.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Aug 2022)

And there was PJ O'Rourke long ago in National Lampoon, "Secret Homosexual Code Signals".

"OK" sign == "There are 4 Turkish Freighters docked downtown and my asshole is bleeding like a bitch".


----------



## Haggis (24 Aug 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> And sometimes it's just the okay symbol, so I guess context is everything. Sometimes it's just easiest to not ovethink things.


Where's the fun in that?


----------



## TacticalTea (24 Aug 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The scuba diving community probably has an opinion on both.


Lots of cross pollination with LE, apparently.

I think I've seen more police officers use it than anyone else.

Good way to relay your status non-verbally. (Over a crowd, sirens, a screeching subject)


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Aug 2022)

Imagine if this was Pierre Poilievre.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Imagine if this was Pierre Poilievre.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just like his real Dad


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Aug 2022)

dangerboy said:


> To this day I still do not understand how a gesture that meant Okay for quite a long time got turned into a white power symbol. Very confusing, at least to me.





Brad Sallows said:


> The scuba diving community probably has an opinion on both.



Yeah, I guess PADI should make a new hand signal for ‘Diver OK!’.


----------



## Kilted (24 Aug 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Similarly, not even sure what it was called, but there was something stupid going around about twenty years ago with guys making that symbol upside down around waist level, and if you saw it, you were 'caught' and got a nut shot for it. So dumb, but was funny when I was in my early 20s I guess. So was a lot of other stupid things that would probably get me canceled today, so glad I grew up doing stupid things before cell phone cameras and social media enshrines it forever on the interwebs.


That is still a thing, I actually only saw it for the first time about five years ago.


----------



## Kilted (24 Aug 2022)

We're going to run out of things that aren't racist soon.  I'm actually kind of surprised that the Detriot Red Wings current logo has survived cancel culture.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Aug 2022)

Oooh..with a little agitation maybe we could set up a fight between the hockey team and the HA over "red wings"...


----------



## mariomike (24 Aug 2022)

This subject comes up on occasion. 



RangerRay said:


> Much like how the “ok” hand symbol is now seen as a symbol of “white power”.



For reference to the discussion,









						OK gesture - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## TacticalTea (24 Aug 2022)

Kilted said:


> We're going to run out of things that aren't racist soon.  I'm actually kind of surprised that the Detriot Red Wings current logo has survived cancel culture.


Exactly.

I refuse to let the medias and establishment preachers tell us we can't use the OK gesture (or the Canadian flag, for that matter) anymore just because they're too blinded by ideology to distinguish between trolling and genuine hate speech.


----------



## brihard (25 Aug 2022)

Haggis said:


> Regarding TUPOC's occupation, this is not a good image for Ottawa Police.
> 
> View attachment 72731


This is friggin’ stupid (not you; the take based on this interpretation of it). I saw the video of this happening, it’s floating around online. It happened a couple times. The officer is adjusting his sunglasses, pushing them up slightly with one of his fingers (middle I think). Catch me pushing my sunglasses up or picking something itchy out of my beard, good money my forefinger and thumb’ll be closed the same way.  Now though any cop who unthinkingly does anything close to the ‘OK’ gesture (which I also unthinkingly use and even did so today), and it becomes an internet witch hunt to put complaints in.


----------



## Haggis (25 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> This is friggin’ stupid (not you; the take based on this interpretation of it). I saw the video of this happening, it’s floating around online. It happened a couple times. The officer is adjusting his sunglasses, pushing them up slightly with one of his fingers (middle I think).


Thanks for adding the needed context (I couldn't find the source video, but I didn't expend a lot of effort to do so).  I will inform the CO.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Aug 2022)

Haggis said:


> Regarding TUPOC's occupation, this is not a good image for Ottawa Police.
> 
> View attachment 72731



I feel like there is probably a whole lot of context that is being willfully ignored by the tweeter in a way to foster outrage.


----------



## Remius (25 Aug 2022)

It looks like he’s adjusting his hat to be honest.  And the other guy has a Mic, probably media so why would he do that so blatantly?  I agree that this premise is dumb.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> It looks like he’s adjusting his hat to be honest.  And the other guy has a Mic, probably media so why would he do that so blatantly?  I agree that this premise is dumb.



I'm pretty sure that's another LEO he's talking too.  Looks like a duty belt with mags.  But either way, we are on the same page.  The whole thing is dumb and its a deceitful willful attempt to foster outrage.


----------



## Remius (25 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm pretty sure that's another LEO he's talking too.  Looks like a duty belt with mags.  But either way, we are on the same page.  The whole thing is dumb and its a deceitful willful attempt to foster outrage.


The Twitter poster is a left wing activist apparently.  So I’m not shocked.


----------



## Remius (25 Aug 2022)

This thread has the full video.  He’s clearly adjusting his glasses…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561158277391683584


----------



## FSTO (25 Aug 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Someone started it as a joke (on 8chan or some other dumb board?) that it made the 'WP' symbol for white power and were running around being edge lords. Then actual white supremacists started using it as an actual WP symbol. I think that's mostly in the US and in a certain age group, but one of those stupid meme trends.
> 
> Similarly, not even sure what it was called, but there was something stupid going around about twenty years ago with guys making that symbol upside down around waist level, and if you saw it, you were 'caught' and got a nut shot for it. So dumb, but was funny when I was in my early 20s I guess. So was a lot of other stupid things that would probably get me canceled today, so glad I grew up doing stupid things before cell phone cameras and social media enshrines it forever on the interwebs.
> 
> And sometimes it's just the okay symbol, so I guess context is everything. Sometimes it's just easiest to not ovethink things.


Found out about that prank while at Chilliwack doing officer basic in 1989. It was called the "Asshole Game" back then.


----------



## Journeyman (25 Aug 2022)

If one can trust the Southern Poverty Law Center (from 2018)..... 









						Is that an OK sign? A white power symbol? Or just a right-wing troll?
					

From its adoption first by white nationalists, and then by 4chan trolls intent on ‘triggering the libs,’ the well-known hand signal’s use points to deeper concerns.




					www.splcenter.org
				




tl:dr -- From the conclusion:


> So when someone flashes the “OK sign” with that knowing smirk, it’s not just a harmless act that can be dismissed. It may or may not mean that they are a white nationalist attempting a sly signal. But the sign unquestionably identifies the user as one thing: a troll.



In my (non-tinfoil hat) opinion, I see a LEO adjusting sunglasses;  take a valium and move along.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Aug 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I think it's pretty hilarious their acronym is TUPOC (The United People of Canada), and also that while the reporter was there talking to them, a bylaw officer ticketed the TUPOC spokesperson's car for exceeding the 1 hour parking limit (after a blanket warning the day before). Seems like someone also tried to break into the separate rectory, so police are investigating  that.
> 
> Some genius also decided to start doing unauthorized construction on the church, which is a registered heritage building; those fines can be huge.
> 
> What a bunch of idiots; they almost need a running montage of Balcony Ricky.


This appears to be one of their .... what: spokespersons? leaders? dishwashers (check the gloves)? (Photo from Graham Richardson of CTV/CJOH Ottawa)


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Aug 2022)

"We're a serious organization with real goals" says the Bellend King, while wearing a paper crown from Burger King, rubber gloves and sporting a flag with the tree from the Elves in Lord of the Rings on it.

Along with the self proclaimed 'Queen of Canada' trying to arrest police, and these people trying to do a 'private prosecution' these people are just right out of it, and creating a lot of unnecessarily dangerous conflicts. Probably the best arguement for requiring more basic Canadian civics lessons in the school curriculum though.


----------



## IKnowNothing (25 Aug 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Probably the best arguement for requiring more basic Canadian civics lessons in the school curriculum though.


That and the establishment of a new tort to expose online BS artists to greater liability.


----------



## dapaterson (25 Aug 2022)

I'm not feeling this "King of Kensington" reboot; they need to recast the Al Waxman character.


----------



## dapaterson (25 Aug 2022)

I mean, cargo shorts and a polo shirt are strongly suggestive of former military service...


----------



## FSTO (25 Aug 2022)

is this performance Art? 

What a bunch of maroons!


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (25 Aug 2022)

Journeyman said:


> If one can trust the Southern Poverty Law Center (from 2018).....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, Chef Boyardee was a white supremacist?


----------



## FSTO (25 Aug 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> So, Chef Boyardee was a white supremacist?


Of course!!!!


----------



## RangerRay (25 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I mean, cargo shorts and a polo shirt are strongly suggestive of former military service...


Hey!  I resemble that remark!


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I mean, cargo shorts and a polo shirt are strongly suggestive of former military service...



Hes missing the white sneakers, white socks, the cell phone holster and some sort tacticool accessory.

This guy must be reserve.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I mean, cargo shorts and a polo shirt are strongly suggestive of former military service...


🤔 If he was wearing a pair of old CF oxfords I’d be inclined to agree with you, dap, but he’s splurged on some flashy Diddies so there’s that…


----------



## Kilted (25 Aug 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Navy_Pete said:
> 
> 
> > "We're a serious organization with real goals" says the Bellend King, while wearing a paper crown from Burger King, rubber gloves and sporting a flag with the tree from the Elves in Lord of the Rings on it.
> ...


That is the White Tree of Gondor that you are referring to.


----------



## Haggis (25 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> This thread has the full video.  He’s clearly adjusting his glasses…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1561158277391683584


Reasonable explanations notwithstanding, I can see now how the wingnuts could spin this video and any screen captures with ease.  Sure, he's appears to be adjusting his sunglasses , despite nothing appearing to be wrong with their placement.  That he does this while probably speaking with a member of the TUPOCian High Council, and just happens to form the "sign"' while doing so as to cause a diplomatic incident between two governments.


----------



## brihard (25 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> This appears to be one of their .... what: spokespersons? leaders? dishwashers (check the gloves)? (Photo from Graham Richardson of CTV/CJOH Ottawa)View attachment 72762


William Komer. No known CAF history. Guaranteed they would have trumpeted it if there was. He’s a knob.


----------



## Mills Bomb (25 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> This appears to be one of their .... what: spokespersons? leaders? dishwashers (check the gloves)? (Photo from Graham Richardson of CTV/CJOH Ottawa)View attachment 72762


If you look closely at the photo, someone has graffiti'd "RAM RANCH" on the steps. Are they trying to say this is where you go to find the 18 naked cowboys? 









						Ram Ranch Resistance: How a gay cowboy song became an anti-convoy anthem
					

"I appreciate my anti-convoy fans in Ottawa and all across Canada so much."




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## Remius (25 Aug 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> If you look closely at the photo, someone has graffiti'd "RAM RANCH" on the steps. Are they trying to say this is where you go to find the 18 naked cowboys?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That still cracks me up…lol


----------



## OceanBonfire (26 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Ontario mayor fires back at conspiracy theorists who tried to arrest police officers
> 
> 
> An Ontario mayor had some harsh words for protesters who attempted to place local police officers under arrest Saturday.
> ...











						6th arrest of Romana Didulo followers who attempted to arrest police in Peterborough - Peterborough | Globalnews.ca
					

Police accuse the woman of grabbing the body armour of an officer, interfering with the arrest of another protester and striking an officer with a stainless-steel travel mug.




					globalnews.ca
				




Let's hope the remaining conspiracy theorists are found and arrested.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Aug 2022)

If anyone is found and arrested, I hope it's for more than being a conspiracy theorist.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Aug 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If anyone is found and arrested, I hope it's for more than being a conspiracy theorist.


You don't pay attention to OB's posts, do you?


----------



## brihard (26 Aug 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If anyone is found and arrested, I hope it's for more than being a conspiracy theorist.


Five or six have been arrested either at the time or subsequently. Not for ‘conspiracy theories”, but for physically assaulting police officers or physically obstructing police arresting others. And this has all been public for days.


----------



## mariomike (26 Aug 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Let's hope the remaining conspiracy theorists are found and arrested.



Some may need professional help more than an arrest record.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Aug 2022)

> And this has all been public for days.



I know.  I'm just critical of how things are expressed, in case someone really means it.


----------



## Kat Stevens (26 Aug 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You don't pay attention to OB's posts, do you?


I 


                                                                                           very much.

_REDACTED_


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Aug 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If anyone is found and arrested, I hope it's for more than being a conspiracy theorist.


One can be a conspiracy theorist with out being a violent jerk.


----------



## PuckChaser (26 Aug 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You don't pay attention to OB's posts, do you?


They're actual posts? Or just RSS feeds of links with no independent thought or discussion?


----------



## mariomike (26 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> One can be a conspiracy theorist with out being a violent jerk.



Keep reading that term,






						Urban Dictionary: Conspiracy Theorists
					

Conspiracy Theorists are large groups of underachievers who talk about unrealistic huge world-wide conspiracies, that apparently no one is aware of, except some angry kids and man-children in front of their keyboards. Essentially, it's a way for them to feel smarter than the establishment and...




					www.urbandictionary.com
				




As a retired person, internet conspiracy theories in a chat room are, sort of, entertaining. But, for facts, I still prefer the non-fiction section at the library.


----------



## brihard (26 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> Some may need professional help more than an arrest record.


Definitely. Some of these people are clearly not well and have been taken in by a cult.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> Definitely. Some of these people are clearly not well and have been taken in by a cult.


Cults prey on the weak and disturbed and those looking for a family - much the same as gangs.

AND its not only the poor and middle class - it extends to the "professions" as well.


----------



## BillN (26 Aug 2022)

This caught my eye......"Didulo, based out of Victoria, B.C."   I wonder if she wears tweed ???


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Aug 2022)

BillN said:


> This caught my eye......"Didulo, based out of Victoria, B.C."   I wonder if she wears tweed ???



Looks like it from here


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> But, for facts, I still prefer the non-fiction section at the library.


You mention going to the library alot.


----------



## mariomike (27 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You mention going to the library alot.



I do go to the library a lot. It's an old habit. Because unlike chat rooms, the library separates fiction from non-fiction. 



Remius said:


> Plenty of people on all sides are not interested in facts. Only what they want to hear.


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Aug 2022)




----------



## RangerRay (29 Aug 2022)

More on our new “queen”. 









						How the 'Queen of Canada' is making inroads into the U.S., Australia and beyond
					

Romana Didulo and her followers are seeking to replace legitimate governments via their sovereign citizenship movement. Their claims are outrageous and baseless, but they must not be ignored.




					theconversation.com


----------



## dapaterson (30 Aug 2022)

Sov Cit in court, Peterborough edition.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564681608493518849


----------



## RangerRay (30 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Sov Cit in court, Peterborough edition.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564681608493518849


I would buy tickets to watch those court appearances.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Aug 2022)

As always, someone has to be a horrible warning.


----------



## mariomike (7 Sep 2022)

In the news.









						Majority of Canadians view a politician's open support of trucker protest as negative: survey
					

Most Canadians say they would hold a negative view of a politician who openly supported the trucker protest that took place in Ottawa earlier this year, a new survey from Nanos Research shows.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				






> "These negative impressions cut across gender, they cut across every age group, they cut across every region. The fact of the matter is, is with seven out of every 10 Canadians having a negative view… This is not a growth strategy for anyone or any party that wants to try to win a majority, I would say even a minority government," Nik Nanos said in an interview on CTV's Power Play Tuesday.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Sep 2022)

mariomike said:


> In the news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well d'uh, because it turned into a 100% shitshow, I'm sure not what most thought they were signing up for.

It's like now saying you supported the building of the Olympic Stadium in Montreal all those years ago.  Yet folks at the time couldn't wait to be some part of it....


----------



## OceanBonfire (7 Sep 2022)

Coutts blockaders collected firearms to use against police, RCMP documents allege  | Globalnews.ca
					

The RCMP alleged in search warrant applications that anti-vaccine mandate demonstrators in Coutts, Alta., were 'arming themselves for a standoff against police.'




					globalnews.ca
				






> According to the RCMP allegations, Tony Olienick, Jerry Morin, and Chris Carbert “were part of a group that participated in the Coutts blockade and brought firearms into the Coutts blockade area with the intention of using those firearms against police.”


----------



## Kat Stevens (7 Sep 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Coutts blockaders collected firearms to use against police, RCMP documents allege  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The RCMP alleged in search warrant applications that anti-vaccine mandate demonstrators in Coutts, Alta., were 'arming themselves for a standoff against police.'
> ...


Oh good, you're back. Long time, no sunshiny news.


----------



## IKnowNothing (7 Sep 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> , I'm sure not what most thought they were signing up for.


If you're referring to the convoy stalwarts, most bought into the idea that they were the tip of a spear 1000's of big rigs and hundreds of thousands of Canadian's long, and this awesome display of Canadian solidarity would trigger the near immediate reversal of all mandates and the dissolution of the duly elected government.

Very much 100% a shitshow that the majority of Canadians disapprove of, just a more grandiose one than the petulant display we got.


----------



## brihard (7 Sep 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> If you're referring to the convoy stalwarts, most bought into the idea that they were tip of spear 1000's of big rigs and hundreds of thousands of Canadian's long, and this awesome display of Canadian solidarity would trigger the near immediate reversal of all mandates and the dissolution of the duly elected government.
> 
> Very much still a shitshow that the majority of Canadians disapprove of, just a more grandiose one than the petulant display we got.


Yup, they were talking a big game about tens of thousands of rigs. When push actually came to shove, maybe a few dozen rigs didn’t turn around and run away, and had to be towed. The crowd didn’t have much fight in them either; any resolve they had broke by midday on the Saturday. A bunch of people thought they were going to be part of something bigger and cooler and a lot less stupid than what they actually found themselves in.


----------



## IKnowNothing (7 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup, they were talking a big game about tens of thousands of rigs.


I distinctly remember the OPP count at Thunder Bay being dismissed as Fake News, with claims of a convoy so big that if it were real the tail would still have been in Saskatchewan when the head got to Ottawa.

Bigger, cooler, and a whole lot more sedition-y.


----------



## childs56 (8 Sep 2022)

For those of you saying the convoy Did nothing definitely have your head in the sand. The convoy idea started out West in Vancouver by the Truck Drivers out there who after years of attacks on their way of life were done.
In particular they are the drivers who run the fuel from Washington state to the Vancouver International Airport, the ones who pickup and deliver  the truck loads of goods we require for living.
After years of more restricting rules, with no give on the requirements to get the job done. The last COVID Border restriction was the final straw. Many of those drivers were point to point. They would drive across the border, load fuel at the terminal and drive back and unload fuel at the Airport. Then return. They had no person to person contact and had been doing this critical job through out covid. Then they were told to get the vaccine or else they could not deliver the fuel and do their jobs they had been doing previously.

The truck drivers at the Loading docks were being screwed by the Gov, Shippers and the dock workers. They would have to be at the dock for a certain time, they would wait upwards of 2-3hrs to load. Then deliver that load and get at least two more loads for the day and or drive to Calgary to unload. By the time they loaded, tarped etc they would not have enough time as per their log books to make the requirements. Then they told those driver they had to have the covid shot so they could do the same job they had been doing. Again they would not leave their trucks except to secure their loads. 

We also got to see the gross misuse of powers by not only the federal government but also by the Ottawa City council in particular the Police Committee members applying direct pressure to the Chief of Police to get things to tun violent.   

The Blue collar side of Canada stood up and raised more money in two weeks then the liberals and NDP do their entire campaign legally.  Then they did it again a few weeks later. It scared the crap out of the Federal Government as they have not had the deal with the Blue Collar workers standing up across the country together.  

As a few of my friends said that attended from each coast. They never though they would see Eastern Canada support Western Canada and vice versa, in particular the Support they seen going through Quebec. 

Then those Truck Drivers asked for support from across the country. They got that and then some.

As for those few people at the Coutts border threating violence, they were under surveillance for some time before all this protest stuff came out. The Police just did not have enough evidence to arrest them prior. They were trying to form a militia style group. Many wanted nothing to do with them or their cause.

This court case will be interesting as not information has been released. By the time it is heard there will be 14 other major issues to contend with.


----------



## Navy_Pete (8 Sep 2022)

@childs56 What exactly did it actually achieve? The mandates are slowly being rolled back, which they would have anyway. The things they were protesting in Ottawa were provincial/municipal matters, or also imposed by foreign governments as part of their own border control.

I don't really see how the convoy would have impacted any of the things you are talking about.

Most people were really appreciative of truckers and other critical workers who had to keep doing things in person, but that doesn't change the fact that the 5% that participated in the convoy are still largely seen as bellends, and Balcony Ricky was pretty accurate.


----------



## dimsum (8 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> We also got to see the gross misuse of powers by not only the federal government but also by the Ottawa City council in particular the Police Committee members applying direct pressure to the Chief of Police to get things to tun violent.


Source on that?


----------



## childs56 (9 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Source on that?


This is the one with Dianne Deans tried to pressure the Ottawa Police Chief to push the EMA. When he stated clearly it was not needed. This video is cut short and the orignal one is not to be found. Diane Deans was forced off the board shortly after this meeting, after two Police Chiefs resigned over this matter. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=259442443000741
			







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1475157912904634
			







__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=641254350479106
			





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-board-el-chantiry-police-board-chair-1.6352248?fbclid=IwAR3ARewNYTiciwN2eNdfX6wlMsAPTGZtTYnJreesP4kthU9WUeCLscmWSe8
		


This was an actual attack where critical infrastructure was affected, Police Officers were directly attacked, with booby traps set up on the road way into the camp.  Yet nothing of any significance was mentioned  and the PM was mute on the subject. 




__





						Millions in damage after attack on Coastal GasLink work site, RCMP say
					

Police near an under-construction natural gas pipeline in northern B.C. are investigating after what they say was a violent attack by roughly 20 people overnight.




					beta.ctvnews.ca
				








__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1094267148093591


----------



## QV (9 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> This is the one with Dianne Deans tried to pressure the Ottawa Police Chief to push the EMA. When he stated clearly it was not needed. This video is cut short and the orignal one is not to be found. Diane Deans was forced off the board shortly after this meeting, after two Police Chiefs resigned over this matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People should certainly have questions.


----------



## Remius (9 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> This is the one with Dianne Deans tried to pressure the Ottawa Police Chief to push the EMA. When he stated clearly it was not needed. This video is cut short and the orignal one is not to be found. Diane Deans was forced off the board shortly after this meeting, after two Police Chiefs resigned over this matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are mixing a few things up.  

Only one Police chief resigned over the handling of the trucker convoy.

  The other was disinclined to accept the position after Deans unilaterally made a decision to appoint a chief with little to no consultation or vetting.  She was forced off the board after that issue caused a stir.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Sep 2022)

For additional context Councillor Deans has been butting heads with the 'Watson Group' for a long time, and was more the victim of a dysfunctional Ottawa city council infighting.

She previously called out Watson and co for trying to push through the LRT contract, asking if it had met the technical requirements (it didn't) and wanting to see the scoring results (which they didn't get) before voting on a $2B+ contract.

In this case she was the only one calling on the Police Chief to do something more than nothing.

She was replaced by a new councilor with zero experience, who then backdoor hired a replacement police chief, who then had to have that hiring canceled because they backdoored it.

Ottawa council is a mess and glad to see Watson go; the LRT alone will be a stinking albatross for a while, and even if they put SNC in default, we are basically stuck with a multi billion dollar system that isn't actually fit for Ottawa climate.


----------



## childs56 (9 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> You are mixing a few things up.
> 
> Only one Police chief resigned over the handling of the trucker convoy.
> 
> The other was disinclined to accept the position after Deans unilaterally made a decision to appoint a chief with little to no consultation or vetting.  She was forced off the board after that issue caused a stir.


Neither one of them officially resigned over the Convoy. 
But both of their quick departures at the time after the special meetings makes it very suspect.


----------



## childs56 (9 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> For additional context Councillor Deans has been butting heads with the 'Watson Group' for a long time, and was more the victim of a dysfunctional Ottawa city council infighting.
> 
> She previously called out Watson and co for trying to push through the LRT contract, asking if it had met the technical requirements (it didn't) and wanting to see the scoring results (which they didn't get) before voting on a $2B+ contract.
> 
> ...


^ not sure what any of that has to do with her trying to influence and escalate the use of Force by the Police Chief. Which was outside of her and the committees powers to do.  

"In this case she was the only one calling on the Police Chief to do something more than nothing."  She was actually trying to escalate the use of force which is outside of her and the committees agenda. 
The Convoy up until this point was following the rules stated. (they over stayed their welcome)  They were asked to move to a park, once there they were forced from there. The Police Chief had no intentions of getting physical on this protest thus escalating the situation.  Many Liberal/NDP supporters could not believe that this convoy of bad people were acting peacefully. Thus they wanted to force the violence side of things. 
There are multiple instances of NDP/Liberal supporters trying to antagonize the initial protest trying to incite violence. Guess what the last thing a person wants is their $200,000 truck smashed up, or their $600,000 picker truck wrecked.


----------



## Remius (10 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> ^ not sure what any of that has to do with her trying to influence and escalate the use of Force by the Police Chief. Which was outside of her and the committees powers to do.


it has to do with him pointing out the political situation that led to her being removed from that committee and the reasons why.

You seem to be distorting what actually happened.


----------



## Mills Bomb (10 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> For additional context Councillor Deans has been butting heads with the 'Watson Group' for a long time, and was more the victim of a dysfunctional Ottawa city council infighting.
> 
> She previously called out Watson and co for trying to push through the LRT contract, asking if it had met the technical requirements (it didn't) and wanting to see the scoring results (which they didn't get) before voting on a $2B+ contract.
> 
> ...



It's popular to make jokes about the O-Train and I agree it has shortfalls, but ultimately the track system is the most critical part of railway infrastructure and the outgoing administration put a plan in place that is getting it done.

The city can fix and weatherize the trains / wheels / doors with time. Ottawa is much further ahead now than if this project wasn't started. Jokes and issues aside, the O-Train is a solid upgrade in progress for the city and the track system is being completed.

If you compare Ottawa to other Canadian cities like Toronto, Toronto is triple the size and the subway only has only two lines, and the trolley bus system isn't good either and worse than the OC Transpo street buses. Ottawa is going to continue to be much better to commute than Toronto. The map for the completed O-Train track systems is much more impressive and logical.

The O-Train completion and likely building of a new hockey arena for the Ottawa Senators at the LeBreton flats downtown will be major upgrades to a city that is already very appealing.


----------



## mariomike (10 Sep 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> If you compare Ottawa to other Canadian cities like Toronto, Toronto is triple the size and the subway only has only two lines, and the trolley bus system isn't good either and worse than the OC Transpo street buses. Ottawa is going to continue to be much better to commute than Toronto. The map for the completed O-Train track systems is much more impressive and logical.



Not to disagree, or agree, as I am not very familiar with Ottawa transit.

Incidentally, Toronto has not run trolley buses in 30 years.

Regarding the rail network,



> rail network consisting of three heavy-capacity rail lines operating predominantly underground, and one elevated medium-capacity rail line. Two light rail lines, which will operate both at-grade and underground, are under construction.



Line 1 Yonge–University​Line 2 Bloor–Danforth​Line 3 Scarborough​Line 4 Sheppard​Line 5 Eglinton​Line 6 Finch West​
Again, not to compare Toronto ridership to Ottawa, because I am not familiar with their system, but TTC did 2.7 million rides in a single day, prior to Covid.

Having said that. there is certainly a long overdue need for transit improvement.


----------



## childs56 (10 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> it has to do with him pointing out the political situation that led to her being removed from that committee and the reasons why.
> 
> You seem to be distorting what actually happened.


I disagree with this. 
She was removed from the Police Committee due to her incessant interference with trying to influence the Police Chief in escalating the situation with the convoy. She was using terms and trying use pressure that were not appropriate to get the use of force escalated. 
She even stated herself a few times that she was possibly over reaching her and the committees role but felt it was appropriate.  All the other infighting with the council is just that a bunch of typical politicians who misdirect the real reasons and blame everyone else but themselves.


----------



## Remius (10 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> I disagree with this.
> She was removed from the Police Committee due to her incessant interference with trying to influence the Police Chief in escalating the situation with the convoy. She was using terms and trying use pressure that were not appropriate to get the use of force escalated.
> She even stated herself a few times that she was possibly over reaching her and the committees role but felt it was appropriate.  All the other infighting with the council is just that a bunch of typical politicians who misdirect the real reasons and blame everyone else but themselves.


You can disagree.  You haven’t shown that was the case. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-chief-diane-deans-1.6354150
		


Very few people at OPS lamented the loss of Sloly. 

The straw that broke the camel’s back.  Watson just needed an excuse.  Not sure if you follow Ottawa city politics but Watson and Deans were not very good friends at all.

Also



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/police-chief-diane-deans-1.6354150
		










						Egan: Jim Watson and the practice of politics most cruel
					

"That Wednesday council meeting was not just divisive, it was, on a human level, destructive."




					ottawacitizen.com
				












						Meehan: Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson’s world is the very worst of politics
					

Someone had to take the political fall for what was happening with the protest downtown. Targeting the Ottawa Police Services Board, chaired by Watson's…




					ottawacitizen.com
				




Not sure where you are getting your info. 

After she and Sloly were removed they appointed an acting chief that finally took action and cleared everyone out.


----------



## brihard (10 Sep 2022)

The convoy was just a big tantrum. It stopped having anything meaningful to do with working truckers by the time it even entered Ontario; it was just a big collection of incoherent grievances. Sloly didn’t have the will to immediately act to clear it out; once he was turfed, his successor did. When it finally came time to clear them out and open up downtown again, they went with all the grace and dignity of a toddler sweeping things off the shelf as his mom carries him screaming out of the grocery store. The convoy achieved nothing save to spur some long overdue regulation of crowd funding platforms, and to land a bunch of people with minor criminal records that will screw with their plans to take the kids to Disneyland. None of the service or retail workers whose jobs downtown were shuttered for weeks because of these idiots were sad to see them go.

The sad and disturbing thing is that even right up to the very end, a bunch of them thought they would convince police to turn around, join them, and March to Parliament Hill and toss out the current government (notwithstanding that it was a weekend). That’s what a whole lot of them wanted. We know this because they said it loudly and repeatedly.

Sorry kids. You can wait til the next election and try it the lawful way.


----------



## Navy_Pete (10 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> The straw that broke the camel’s back.  Watson just needed an excuse.  Not sure if you follow Ottawa city politics but Watson and Deans were not very good friends at all.


I've been following our local city hall politics fairly regularly since the LRT started, and surprised Watson hadn't stabbed her in the back before that. He's an autocratic bully who gets things done (poorly). He routinely cuts out local councillors out of things in their wards if they aren't in his clique.

I wish the province had more oversight over the LRT contracting process, still can't believe the winner was that short of being technically compliant that the evaluators were questioning their basic competence in the evaluation (SNC's proposal missed that the old O-train line was diesel, and had nothing on the conversion required for the new electric trains, plus didn't meet basic environmental requirements). I expect the findings from the inquiry to be fairly damning.

I think it's sheer incompetance and arrogance vice corruption, but we're stuck with a train which is fundamentally unsuited for the environment, and stations not set up for rain, ice, snow or heat.


----------



## Remius (10 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I've been following our local city hall politics fairly regularly since the LRT started, and surprised Watson hadn't stabbed her in the back before that. He's an autocratic bully who gets things done (poorly). He routinely cuts out local councillors out of things in their wards if they aren't in his clique.
> 
> I wish the province had more oversight over the LRT contracting process, still can't believe the winner was that short of being technically compliant that the evaluators were questioning their basic competence in the evaluation (SNC's proposal missed that the old O-train line was diesel, and had nothing on the conversion required for the new electric trains, plus didn't meet basic environmental requirements). I expect the findings from the inquiry to be fairly damning.
> 
> I think it's sheer incompetance and arrogance vice corruption, but we're stuck with a train which is fundamentally unsuited for the environment, and stations not set up for rain, ice, snow or heat.


I hear you.  I’m glad most of the people at city hall aren’t running again.  Fresh faces are definitely needed.

Don’t forget the secret WhatsApp messaging they used to talk about everything “LRT”.   I agree with you though, I don’t think anything corrupt happened but it was very much arrogance.


----------



## childs56 (10 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> You can disagree.  You haven’t shown that was the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am going off the meeting I watched that is not public in its entirety now. The one where she acted improperly trying to force the Police Chief to ask for the Military to assist him to gain order from the terrorist that invaded her city.  
A couple days later he resigned. 
They hired a new Chief who stepped down a couple of days later. 
No matter what other politics were going on, she  messed up by trying to directly influence the Police Chief to escalate force on the protesters. After he had things under control. She was directly responsible for reneging on the meeting locations for the safe protests. 
You can have your opinions on all the other influences as to her leaving the Police Committee. She was forced out because she acted inappropriately for her position and role.  She acknowledged it in the meeting, but tried to cover her butt for it.  

End of the day she did wrong, she over stepped her boundaries and tried to directly influence the Police Chief, during a major situation. Which is a over reach in the committees role and purpose.


----------



## Navy_Pete (10 Sep 2022)

@childs56 except that had absolutely nothing to do with her replacement, the official party line was she got axed 'to restore public confidence' because the people in Ottawa wanted to occupation gone, and most people were pretty happy that it got broken up shortly after the EMA got brought in.

It likely didn't need to be, but by that point the city had long ago lost the plot, and the council under Watson was doing nothing. It took a private citizen to get the noise injunction, which is something Watson could have done.

Watson had been gunning for Deans for a long time, and honestly it's a shame she is retiring as she was pretty good. Unfortunately some of the Watson crew are running again, so hoping for a house clearing.


----------



## lenaitch (10 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> I am going off the meeting I watched that is not public in its entirety now. The one where she acted improperly trying to force the Police Chief to ask for the Military to assist him to gain order from the terrorist that invaded her city.
> A couple days later he resigned.
> They hired a new Chief who stepped down a couple of days later.
> No matter what other politics were going on, she  messed up by trying to directly influence the Police Chief to escalate force on the protesters. After he had things under control. She was directly responsible for reneging on the meeting locations for the safe protests.
> ...


You keep flipping between "her" (Deanes) and "they" (Police Services Board).  I haven't researched it that closely, but I'm not sure if the Board, by resolution, hired the ex-Chief of WRPS or she acted alone, either rogue or assuming she hand the authority of the Board.  Same for the alleged influence on the OPS Chief.

Whether the alleged action of the Board, or any of its individual members, was an unlawful interference in day-to-day operations under the PSA is, to some, a matter of debate.

Please explain to us how Chief Sloly had "everything under control".

In several posts, you equate law enforcement action  as "violence".   Is it your view that the Ottawa 'convoy' protest was completely lawful and peaceful, and that any police action was violence against the innocent.  I'm just trying to take your measure.


----------



## childs56 (11 Sep 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You keep flipping between "her" (Deanes) and "they" (Police Services Board).  I haven't researched it that closely, but I'm not sure if the Board, by resolution, hired the ex-Chief of WRPS or she acted alone, either rogue or assuming she hand the authority of the Board.  Same for the alleged influence on the OPS Chief.


So why are you commenting if you have not researched it that closely.  


lenaitch said:


> Whether the alleged action of the Board, or any of its individual members, was an unlawful interference in day-to-day operations under the PSA is, to some, a matter of debate.


The debate was made and she apologized for her words. 


lenaitch said:


> Please explain to us how Chief Sloly had "everything under control".


Its been in many reports since that the protest was under control and that they had agreements in place that were followed only to have them changed. But again people only want to focus on their opinions. 


lenaitch said:


> In several posts, you equate law enforcement action  as "violence".   Is it your view that the Ottawa 'convoy' protest was completely lawful and peaceful, and that any police action was violence against the innocent.  I'm just trying to take your measure.


She was trying to have the Ottawa Police to call in the Army to forcibly remove the Protesters. Which the Army and the Ottawa police wanted nothing to do with.  She wanted to use force against the protesters because she did not agree with their protest. 

Shortly before during previous protests of other groups it was determined that the Police were to heavy handed and escalated force that escalated the situation beyond a normal response. ( you can read Ottawa commission of handing of the BLM protests along with the other ones the previous summer). In their review they decided to not use physical force to break up peaceful protest for fear of escalating the situation beyond reasonable force.  Ie do not deploy tear gas and batons unless the protesters are violent. 

I assume you feel that the trucks were weaponized and the truckers were armed with  guns to get their point across. You feel the Army should have deployed and quelled the violence.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Sep 2022)

Never assume.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> So why are you commenting if you have not researched it that closely.
> 
> The debate was made and she apologized for her words.
> 
> ...


What are you on about? Nothing happened at the big BLM protest in Ottawa for police to get particularly worked up about. A few thousand people marched down to the US embassy, yelled for a while, a couple bottles were thrown at cops but that was it, and then they went up to Parliament and the PM literally went into the middle of the crowd. I can only guess you’re talking about the handful who, on a totally separate occasion, occupied the intersection at Nicholas and Laurier and were forcibly cleared out. It pissed some people off but was completely lawful and justified to remove them from the intersection,

The convoy protesters were removed from downtown Ottawa because for weeks they had blocked up part of the downtown core, forced to closure of many businesses and shuttered many people’s livelihoods, and had been warned for days that their occupation had long since crossed the line into being criminal.

It’s not rocket surgery. You don’t get to blockade a downtown core and harass thousands of residents for weeks and expect to get away with it endlessly. They were tolerated far longer than they ought to have been. You want to hold marches, clog up streets for an hour or two, be loud and annoying and wave signs, have at ‘er. But weeks is ridiculous. Fortunately the protesters ultimately chose to mostly leave, and to put up modest enough resistance that the use of force by police was kept quite minimal. Had they made different choices there would have been different paths to the same end result.


----------



## Navy_Pete (11 Sep 2022)

Ottawa city council was actually calling for the military be brought in specifically after they got rid of Deans, and Watson called a state of emergency 6 Feb. These are the same people that voted for her ouster, so unless you have some kind of statement from the Mayor or similar condemning that you are reaching. The same council was supportive of the Emergency Act was enacted, because OPS definitely did not have control on the ground. Around the same time some protestors were doing things like setting fires in apartment building lobbies, harrassing residents with LGBT flags and doing some other pretty shitty things.

Truck convoy: Trudeau invokes Emergencies Act; Judge approves city's injunction; 'Several' trucks moved off residential streets: Watson


----------



## lenaitch (11 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> I assume you feel that the trucks were weaponized and the truckers were armed with  guns to get their point across. You feel the Army should have deployed and quelled the violence.


You assume incorrectly.  

I'm just going off memory and what was in the media.  If she or the Board wanted the military brought in, sure, I'll take your word for it.

Law enforcement showed itself to be quite capable in dispersing the blockade; all they needed was leadership and an operational plan from the police service of jurisdiction that garnered the confidence of partner agencies sufficiently that they were willing to commit their members.

I was unaware of any agreements between OPS and the protest organizers.  I am aware that the OPS senior command cycled through several incidents commanders in the early stages.


----------



## QV (11 Sep 2022)

#rocketsurgery


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Around the same time some protestors were doing things like setting fires in apartment building lobbies, harrassing residents with LGBT flags and doing some other pretty shitty things.


One small point to correct, the fire that was set in the lobby of an apartment building had nothing to do with the protest. Rampant harassment of residents was definitely happening though.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

Throughout the whole 247 pages of this thread, nobody has acknowledge the anger and sense of futility that fueled this goat rodeo in the first place. Lots of "right bad, left good" and left bad, right good" , but nobody gives a flying fuck about the underlying frustration. Keep sniping at each other, it's a great distraction.


----------



## McG (11 Sep 2022)

I think it has been touched upon.


Eaglelord17 said:


> When a democratic system fails to represent their constituents, it loses legitimacy in the eyes of those disenfranchised. They fact they fail to understand





McG said:


> Had they recognized the source of their grievance (disenfranchisement) as opposed to a symptom (masks), they might have been able to draw out more support from across the political spectrum. Then again, there were probably a lot of participants in the protests and occupation who would not have believed that what they really wanted was electoral reform, so they might not have showed to a protest that actually addressed the cause of their concern.


----------



## childs56 (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Throughout the whole 247 pages of this thread, nobody has acknowledge the anger and sense of futility that fueled this goat rodeo in the first place. Lots of "right bad, left good" and left bad, right good" , but nobody gives a flying fuck about the underlying frustration. Keep sniping at each other, it's a great distraction.


The issues are deeper then just the vaccine mandates. I discussed a few of them earlier with the Truckers in Vancouver. They had enough, many of them are part of the Sikh community who keep the economy going via trucking.


----------



## Spencer100 (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Throughout the whole 247 pages of this thread, nobody has acknowledge the anger and sense of futility that fueled this goat rodeo in the first place. Lots of "right bad, left good" and left bad, right good" , but nobody gives a flying fuck about the underlying frustration. Keep sniping at each other, it's a great distraction.


The experiment has been run.  We all failed.  That's is main take away of this and the last two years.


----------



## childs56 (11 Sep 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You assume incorrectly.
> 
> I'm just going off memory and what was in the media.  If she or the Board wanted the military brought in, sure, I'll take your word for it.
> 
> ...


There in is the problem. The majority of people did not and still do not know about the agreement for the protesters. Nor do they know that when one agreement was reached council wanted it changed. The Police seemed to have a good time in the beginning. Many enjoying the peaceful protest often seeing being delivered coffee and food.  When the influence of certain politicians and media spoke up things went from annoying to panic and then fear. 
Rumors of firearms being carried by the Truckers, was false, rumor of the protest blocking the bridges proved to be false ( many residents acknowledge that the Police themselves were blocking the bridges and not allowing citizens through) rumors of a fire being started in a apartment lobby by the protesters again false ( started by some local thugs), rumors that a food bank/ soup kitchen was attacked along with the security guard there,. Funny how they have video of some much else but not of these incidents, has yet to be proven, but wow did these incidents get spread pretty quick. 
I did watch videos where the local Police shut down local businesses who were open during the protests. I did read where the majority of the funding raised was from foreign influences, again proven false.  I did read the reports where crime was significantly down in the downtown core area of the city during the protest. I also read where the protest was actually packing up the day before the EMA was enacted, even the Police at multiple levels stated numerous times that they did not need, require or ask for the EMA to be enacted. Against what the Feds stated. But dont let facts get in the way.
the Inquiry into the EMA has been very interesting. Pretty much they over reached their authority to enact the EMA, then kept over stretching it when they seized funds of citizens and kept it going. Even the RCMP have said they did not ask for the act to be done. As for the actual truth. Trudeau and his supporters got scared, because the blue collar part of society got mad from coast to coast. Raised more money in two weeks and then a second time in another two weeks then the liberals or ndp can for their entire campaign. 

It scared them because these are not regular protesters, these are the working force of the economy, who for the most part pay the bills. Even  Hutterites, Quebecers, East Coast, Central, Western Canada, Sikhs, Mennonites etc came together. We have not seen this on this scale in my life time.  
No one in power publicly asked why or was willing to talk to them.   Go figure, instead trudeau left the area and hid. Hoping they would just go away.


----------



## Weinie (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> The convoy was just a big tantrum. It stopped having anything meaningful to do with working truckers by the time it even entered Ontario; it was just a big collection of incoherent grievances. Sloly didn’t have the will to immediately act to clear it out; once he was turfed, his successor did. When it finally came time to clear them out and open up downtown again, they went with all the grace and dignity of a toddler sweeping things off the shelf as his mom carries him screaming out of the grocery store. The convoy achieved nothing save to spur some long overdue regulation of crowd funding platforms, and to land a bunch of people with minor criminal records that will screw with their plans to take the kids to Disneyland. None of the service or retail workers whose jobs downtown were shuttered for weeks because of these idiots were sad to see them go.
> 
> The sad and disturbing thing is that even right up to the very end, a bunch of them thought they would convince police to turn around, join them, and March to Parliament Hill and toss out the current government (notwithstanding that it was a weekend). That’s what a whole lot of them wanted. We know this because they said it loudly and repeatedly.
> 
> Sorry kids. You can wait til the next election and try it the lawful way.


So, deplorables?


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> What are you on about? Nothing happened at the big BLM protest in Ottawa for police to get particularly worked up about. A few thousand people marched down to the US embassy, yelled for a while, a couple bottles were thrown at cops but that was it, and then they went up to Parliament and the PM literally went into the middle of the crowd. I can only guess you’re talking about the handful who, on a totally separate occasion, occupied the intersection at Nicholas and Laurier and were forcibly cleared out. It pissed some people off but was completely lawful and justified to remove them from the intersection,
> 
> The convoy protesters were removed from downtown Ottawa because for weeks they had blocked up part of the downtown core, forced to closure of many businesses and shuttered many people’s livelihoods, and had been warned for days that their occupation had long since crossed the line into being criminal.
> 
> It’s not rocket surgery. You don’t get to blockade a downtown core and harass thousands of residents for weeks and expect to get away with it endlessly. They were tolerated far longer than they ought to have been. You want to hold marches, clog up streets for an hour or two, be loud and annoying and wave signs, have at ‘er. But weeks is ridiculous. Fortunately the protesters ultimately chose to mostly leave, and to put up modest enough resistance that the use of force by police was kept quite minimal. Had they made different choices there would have been different paths to the same end result.


I've told this story before, but: on the day of the big BLM protest I walked, as is my custom, to the National War Memorial (and beyond). I stopped to pay my respects. There were two young, black men wearing yellow vests there. "It's a special place," one said to me. I agreed and asked him if he was pat of the protest. He told me that he was part of the "organizing committee"and he and his colleague were assigned to the National War Memorial, "just in case," to ensure that no one associated with the BLM march might be accused of doing something stupid.

Contrast that with the "truckers" and a few others in recent months.


----------



## QV (11 Sep 2022)

Oh well then… I guess those blue collar workers who have probably never protested before didn’t have all the plans and PR in place Ike the professional protesters do.


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## Remius (11 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Oh well then… I guess those blue collar workers who have probably never protested before didn’t have all the plans and PR in place Ike the professional protesters do.


No need for professional PR plans to not be Dancing and pissing on a monument and using it as a political prop.  You just have to not be an a-hole.


----------



## Remius (11 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> I am going off the meeting I watched that is not public in its entirety now. The one where she acted improperly trying to force the Police Chief to ask for the Military to assist him to gain order from the terrorist that invaded her city.
> A couple days later he resigned.
> They hired a new Chief who stepped down a couple of days later.
> No matter what other politics were going on, she  messed up by trying to directly influence the Police Chief to escalate force on the protesters. After he had things under control. She was directly responsible for reneging on the meeting locations for the safe protests.
> ...


Your going off a false narrative and things that did not happen.  She was not forced out for the reasons you think.  You keep making statements that you say are facts when they are not. 

You are out west right?  Not in Ottawa?   People here have given you the actual reasons she was forced (long-standing political issues and disagreements that came to a head) out and why Sloly, who did not have the confidence of his own force resigned as well.  

The police chief had lost control.  Nothing was under control.  Citizens were about to take things Into their own hands and his own incident commanders had lost faith in his leadership.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> So, deplorables?


I’m more concerned with the actions and behaviour they exhibited and less with whatever politically loaded label someone might want to attach.

“Your cars and trucks are blocking city streets. It’s a crime. Move them or we will.”

“No”.

Everything else beyond that was just details.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Throughout the whole 247 pages of this thread, nobody has acknowledge the anger and sense of futility that fueled this goat rodeo in the first place. Lots of "right bad, left good" and left bad, right good" , but nobody gives a flying fuck about the underlying frustration. Keep sniping at each other, it's a great distraction.



Are you running for office by chance?  This is the smartest thing anyone has said over the past 247 pages.  

It's one of the only posts that doesn't make me feel like I've lost a significant amount of brain cells after I've read it.  

WELL DONE!



Remius said:


> *Your going off a false narrative and things that did not happen*.  She was not forced out for the reasons you think.  You keep making statements that you say are facts when they are not.
> 
> You are out west right?  Not in Ottawa?   People here have given you the actual reasons she was forced (long-standing political issues and disagreements that came to a head) out and why Sloly, who did not have the confidence of his own force resigned as well.
> 
> The police chief had lost control.  Nothing was under control.  Citizens were about to take things Into their own hands and his own incident commanders had lost faith in his leadership.


There are a lot of false narratives floating around out there, I don't think either side has a monopoly on false narratives.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Are you running for office by chance?  This is the smartest thing anyone has said over the past 247 pages.
> 
> It's one of the only posts that doesn't make me feel like I've lost a significant amount of brain cells after I've read it.
> 
> ...


I fully agree. There is a lot of frustration out west. And the GoC is either tone deaf or could care less.


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## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Indeed. And it’s not like this website has been silent of analysis of the underlying criticism and grievance that led to this movement, or discussion of the merits of things brought up by those unhappy with the government. It just tends to take place in other threads like the ‘Liberal Government’ mega thread. The existence of alienation and grievances, and their underlying causes, have been spoken of at length. Just not so much here in the thread that focused more narrowly on the nitty gritty of the actual goings on in Ottawa, Windsor, and Coutts.


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## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I fully agree. There is a lot of frustration out west. And the GoC is either tone deaf or could care less.


The actual hatred for our current PM and the current Govt is palpable out here.  

I look at the recent reception Dep PM Freeland got and the shock from those in Upper Canada and Ottawa.

I think a substantial portion of the population out West would give Dep PM Freeland the same reception regardless of where she was.

I'm seeing a lot of parallels between the current Fed LIBS and the former Wynne Govt in Ontario.  Given the current economic trend of the Country along with a bunch of other issues that are beginning to converge, I think the current Govt is potentially on the road to a pretty big ejection. 

As a Millenial, I don't know anyone my age that actually likes Team Trudeau.


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## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> As a Millenial, I don't know anyone my age that actually likes Team Trudeau.


I am a boomer and the behavior of this GoC disgusts me. JT reminds me more of a Joe Stalin and his gang of thugs with the various schemes they have going on.

The latest being the demand that the agri sector reduce the fertilizer use by 30% by 2030 or 2035 and no consultation with the agri community.


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## childs56 (11 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Your going off a false narrative and things that did not happen.  She was not forced out for the reasons you think.  You keep making statements that you say are facts when they are not.
> 
> You are out west right?  Not in Ottawa?   People here have given you the actual reasons she was forced (long-standing political issues and disagreements that came to a head) out and why Sloly, who did not have the confidence of his own force resigned as well.
> 
> The police chief had lost control.  Nothing was under control.  Citizens were about to take things Into their own hands and his own incident commanders had lost faith in his leadership.


Funny because the official reports and investigations disagree with this opinion.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I am a boomer and the behavior of this GoC disgusts me. JT reminds me more of a Joe Stalin and his gang of thugs with the various schemes they have going on.
> 
> The latest being the demand that the agri sector reduce the fertilizer use by 30% by 2030 or 2035 and no consultation with the agri community.


Yet another example of good politics not equaling good policy 😉

I personally think many of the policies the current GoC is implementing have an alterior motive of consolidating power in Ottawa and making the average Canadian more reliant on Big Government.


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## Remius (11 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> Funny because the official reports and investigations disagree with this opinion.


Please post them then. The official reports that state that Deans was removed because she was pushing an escalation. 

I’ve already posted several links and articles to support what I’ve said.  

If you want to know more about the city’s politics this article and podcast covers a lot of it. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-city-hall-council-mayor-election-2022-1.6574640


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## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> Funny because the official reports and investigations disagree with this opinion.


Which “official resports” and “which investigation” disagrees with what specific parts of that opinion? The police definitely did not have the matter ‘under control’, as evidence by the utter jamming up of several blocks of downtown and the inability to get it cleared out without massive use of public order units. Sloly had most certainly lost the confidence of his troops. Citizen pushback was starting to happen (see: Billings Bridge), and there was beginning to be vandalism against convoy vehicles downtown. It was increasingly a powder keg, and the citizens of Ottawa had largely lost confidence in not just the _ability _but also the _willingness_ of their police to restore order. That still hasn’t really recovered to this day.

The situation was out of hand within the first day or two; Ottawa police should never have let those vehicles all get parked the way they were, and failing that, should have moved in force at first light on the Monday or Tuesday after the first weekend. Instead, the protesters got entrenched and emboldened, and it became three weeks of failure to maintain public order before it was restored. That, to the detriment of thousands of Ottawa residents trying to live and work in the downtown core.

That was not a situation that OPS “had under control”.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

Protests are great, as long as they don't inconvenience anyone.


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## dapaterson (11 Sep 2022)

TBH, citizens of Ottawa have suffered from eroding trust in OPS for years.  Provincial legislation permitting officers to quit the day before an adverse finding / punishment in disciplinary matters make it worse; but with police credibly accused of taking bribes, assault, sexual assault, planting weapon, theft of cash from investigation scenes...


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## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yet another example of good politics not equaling good policy 😉
> 
> I personally think many of the policies the current GoC is implementing have an alterior motive of consolidating power in Ottawa and making the average Canadian more reliant on Big Government.


There is only one PM who was hated as much as JT. Three guesses who it was - it wasn't Chretien or Martin. Harper was hated but not like this one.

It doesn't help that his ministers are incompetent boobs and that anyone that stands up to him gets fired.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Protests are great, as long as they don't inconvenience anyone.


The protests did have an effect on removing mandates, whether anyone here wants to admit it or not is another thing entirely.

I too am capable of keeping my head firmly buried in the sand 😆


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## dimsum (11 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Harper was hated but not like this one.


Being in BC at the time, I'd respectfully disagree.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Being in BC at the time, I'd respectfully disagree.


Fair enough, I wasn't there at the time.


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## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> There is only one PM who was hated as much as JT. Three guesses who it was - it wasn't Chretien or Martin. Harper was hated but not like this one.


I actually think history will be very kind to Stephen Harper.  His fiscal restraint and steady hand will be looked at very positively in a few years.



dimsum said:


> Being in BC at the time, I'd respectfully disagree.


Correction:  Being in Vancouver + Victoria/Lower Vancouver Island 😉


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## dimsum (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Correction:  Being in Vancouver + Victoria/Lower Vancouver Island 😉


That's fair.  

That's also where the majority of BC's population is located.


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## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> That's fair.
> 
> That's also where the majority of BC's population is located.


Which is one of the reasons this Country is in the predicament it's in ATM.  Urbanites being dismissive of the views of the rural folk.


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## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Which is one of the reasons this Country is in the predicament it's in ATM.  Urbanites being dismissive of the views of the rural folk.


And First Nations who have been promised things that have never come to fruition.


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## dapaterson (11 Sep 2022)

Except rural areas are given disproportionately large representation in federal and provincial governments - urban votes are worth significantly less than rural.


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## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Protests are great, as long as they don't inconvenience anyone.


You’re being obtuse. ‘Inconvenient’ protests happen in Ottawa regularly. A couple days a week in the spring, summer, and fall, some cause or another will jam up streets for an hour and force traffic to lose a bunch of time finding another route. Today it may be the Palestinians, tomorrow the anti-abortion crowd and the day after that the pro-choice crowd. Foreign leader visit? Get ready for some major jams. And then within a couple hours or half a day it clears out, people gradually stop grumbling, and carry on.

‘Inconvenient’ is _not_ someone being unable to sleep for two weeks due to truck horns, and being unable to make rent because both of their service or retail jobs were closed for three weeks. It’s not ambulance dispatching having to completely adjust how it sends ambulances to calls because they cannot trans a portion of downtown. It’s not people who chose to wear masks being harassed throughout the downtown core. It’s not people with lawful business being unable, for several weeks, to use major downtown thoroughfares.

But of course you know all this because it’s all been said repeatedly before.


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## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Except rural areas are given disproportionately large representation in federal and provincial governments - urban votes are worth significantly less than rural.


_Prince Edward Island has entered the chat_

(Yes, I know, constitutional compromise)


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## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Except rural areas are given disproportionately large representation in federal and provincial governments - urban votes are worth significantly less than rural.


Tell that to the residents of the four western provinces who may have the votes but generally the GoC is elected once Ontario votes.

I am from Saskatchewan and it seems that when its convenient for Ontario it actually pays attention to the West.


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## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> _Prince Edward Island has entered the chat_


That is a very true thing.


----------



## mariomike (11 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Harper was hated but not like this one.





dimsum said:


> Being in BC at the time, I'd respectfully disagree.



For those of us not familiar with B.C. politics,









						List of candidates elected in B.C. in the 2015 federal election  | Globalnews.ca
					

Here is a list of the candidates elected in B.C. in the 2015 Federal Election.




					globalnews.ca
				






> There are 42 ridings in total in B.C., with six new additional ridings this election. Other ridings’ boundaries were changed to create a new riding.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> You’re being obtuse. ‘Inconvenient’ protests happen in Ottawa regularly. A couple days a week in the spring, summer, and fall, some cause or another will jam up streets for an hour and force traffic to lose a bunch of time finding another route. Today it may be the Palestinians, tomorrow the anti-abortion crowd and the day after that the pro-choice crowd. Foreign leader visit? Get ready for some major jams. And then within a couple hours or half a day it clears out, people gradually stop grumbling, and carry on.
> 
> ‘Inconvenient’ is _not_ someone being unable to sleep for two weeks due to truck horns, and being unable to make rent because both of their service or retail jobs were closed for three weeks. It’s not ambulance dispatching having to completely adjust how it sends ambulances to calls because they cannot trans a portion of downtown. It’s not people who chose to wear masks being harassed throughout the downtown core. It’s not people with lawful business being unable, for several weeks, to use major downtown thoroughfares.
> 
> But of course you know all this because it’s all been said repeatedly before.


You really need to find a new chew toy, you know that? I don't know how many times I need to explain to you just how serious almost every post of mine actually is. Might I suggest switching to DeCaf for a while?


----------



## Weinie (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> _Prince Edward Island has entered the chat_
> 
> (Yes, I know, *constitutional compromise)*


Yup. Unless you want to forcibly re-distribute people across provinces, rural votes may count more than urban. Having said that, the GTA and Greater Montreal area ridings predetermine fed elections results. You can't suck and blow at the same time


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> You really need to find a new chew toy, you know that? I don't know how many times I need to explain to you just how serious almost every post of mine actually is. Might I suggest switching to DeCaf for a while?


Nah, I think you’re using that as a dodge on this one. Nearly every other post of yours on this thread (including in the past where you’ve made glib references to the ‘inconvenience’ thing) have been posted in apparent seriousness, and rightly so. There are a few people on this site that as a rule I don’t take seriously. Because you usually have some insightful takes on things, I actually see you as quite the opposite.

You’ve been clear that you didn’t support the protest itself (‘waste of diesel’ I think you said) but you’ve also been clear that you feel very strongly about the right to peaceful protest; which is cool, I do too. I think in the case of this particular protest, you’ve given _way_ too much leeway to the crap that was allowed to continue. Unfortunately, in your glibness on this one, you’re adding to a narrative a lot of us in the city are hearing from those not here, that dismisses and minimizes the impact this had on our community. Not so much a matter of you being a ‘chew toy’, I just think you have a bad take on something that’s important to me, and it’s a take I’ll usually have something to say about whoever it’s coming from.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Yup. Unless you want to forcibly re-distribute people across provinces, rural votes may count more than urban. Having said that, the GTA and Greater Montreal area ridings predetermine fed elections results. You can't suck and blow at the same time


Well, PEI is a unique case, but yeah, I accept the reality that in an effort to make federal districts ‘make sense’, there’s some overweighting in some cases. When I lived in the territories I was in such a riding.


----------



## mariomike (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> < snip> a narrative a lot of us in the city are hearing from those not here, that dismisses and minimizes the impact this had on our community.



I watched it on TV from home. But, for those of you who served the community, Thank-you and


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Except rural areas are given disproportionately large representation in federal and provincial governments - urban votes are worth significantly less than rural.


Sure but that was done deliberately to get them to agree to Confederate because they would be in an even weaker political position if it were not the case.

Northern Ontario is a perfect example of this problem.  Northern Ontario should in all reality, be its own Province.  I'm not even sure Queens Park wants Northern Ontario, it certainly doesn't want to invest in it.  It is more than happy to collect mineral royalties and corporate taxes though, provided someone else pays for everything.

The Urban Areas of Canada treat Rural Canada like a big cup of milk.  They dip their cookies in it but never refill the milk.



Weinie said:


> Yup. Unless you want to forcibly re-distribute people across provinces, rural votes may count more than urban. Having said that, the GTA and Greater Montreal area ridings predetermine fed elections results. You can't suck and blow at the same time



Bingo!  The whole, Rural Canada gets proportionally more voting power than Urban Canada is a tired line.  

Elections are decided in Montreal and Toronto, everyone knows it.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Sep 2022)

Without rural Canada, urban Canada starves and shivers in the dark.  Without urban Canada, rural Canada lives a simpler lifestyle.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Nah, I think you’re using that as a dodge on this one. Nearly every other post of yours on this thread (including in the past where you’ve made glib references to the ‘inconvenience’ thing) have been posted in apparent seriousness, and rightly so. There are a few people on this site that as a rule I don’t take seriously. Because you usually have some insightful takes on things, I actually see you as quite the opposite.
> 
> You’ve been clear that you didn’t support the protest itself (‘waste of diesel’ I think you said) but you’ve also been clear that you feel very strongly about the right to peaceful protest; which is cool, I do too. I think in the case of this particular protest, you’ve given _way_ too much leeway to the crap that was allowed to continue. Unfortunately, in your glibness on this one, you’re adding to a narrative a lot of us in the city are hearing from those not here, that dismisses and minimizes the impact this had on our community. Not so much a matter of you being a ‘chew toy’, I just think you have a bad take on something that’s important to me, and it’s a take I’ll usually have something to say about whoever it’s coming from.


I actually have no issue with breaking up the protest.  I think it's completely reasonable that it was broken up and thought the police did an excellent job using the minimum amount of force required.

I have a huge issue with the mechanisms used by the Trudeau Government.  Forcing Banks to freeze bank accounts, weaponization of monetary systems, the misuse of the Emergency Act.

None of these actions were required.  Existing laws could have been used.  I hope Trudeau, Freeland and Co end up eventually paying dearly for their lack of leadership but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

mariomike said:


> I watched it on TV from home. But, for those of you who served the community


Nah, I’m not even talking about me personally being down there mixed up in it. That was just a few days of work and some time away from family over a few weeks. That’s nothing anyone on this site would be fazed by. I’m talking about the impact on those in our city who _don’t_ have a nice house in the suburbs and _weren’t_ insulated by wealth and distance from being directly impacted by it when they tried to sleep or go to work. I have friends whose lives were really screwed up for some time by this. We also have a whole city wrestling with whether it can even rely on its own police service.

So that’s where my really intense engagement comes from; not the fact that I personally had to deal with a few people who were being idiots. The convoy was nothing new there, it was just concentrated and sensational in that regard.

I had said it much earlier in the thread, but the blockade at the bridge in Windsor was, IMHO, the greater threat to the national interest.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Nah, I think you’re using that as a dodge on this one. Nearly every other post of yours on this thread (including in the past where you’ve made glib references to the ‘inconvenience’ thing) have been posted in apparent seriousness, and rightly so. There are a few people on this site that as a rule I don’t take seriously. Because you usually have some insightful takes on things, I actually see you as quite the opposite.
> 
> You’ve been clear that you didn’t support the protest itself (‘waste of diesel’ I think you said) but you’ve also been clear that you feel very strongly about the right to peaceful protest; which is cool, I do too. I think in the case of this particular protest, you’ve given _way_ too much leeway to the crap that was allowed to continue. Unfortunately, in your glibness on this one, you’re adding to a narrative a lot of us in the city are hearing from those not here, that dismisses and minimizes the impact this had on our community. Not so much a matter of you being a ‘chew toy’, I just think you have a bad take on something that’s important to me, and it’s a take I’ll usually have something to say about whoever it’s coming from.


Fair enough, cards on the table time. I wonder how well all you city-zens in THE EAST have slept for the past six years, plus, while the absolute clown college that you put in office has dismantled the resource sector in Western Canada? How do you sleep knowing the number of families that have been disenfranchised, dismembered, and made destitute by YOUR government? My bet is it's the sleep of the angels. The protest itself was a stupid thing, and you're right, I've made no secret of my opinion. But the mandates were the final straw for a lot of blue collar people who just want to work and feed their families, oh, and pay their taxes, btw. The mandates just broke the skin on a festering boil. I really do have a hard time feeling sorry for people who went without sleep for a couple of weeks. There are people out here who lose sleep every night wondering how they're going to feed their kids. Sounds like melodrama? It's not. Maybe the hope was that those people would put the pressure where it belonged, rather than demand the horse cavalry. Silly us western, rural, rednecks with unacceptable beliefs for expecting support from fellow Canadians. Another lesson learned.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I actually have no issue with breaking up the protest.  I think it's completely reasonable that it was broken up and thought the police did an excellent job using the minimum amount of force required.
> 
> I have a huge issue with the mechanisms used by the Trudeau Government.  Forcing Banks to freeze bank accounts, weaponization of monetary systems, the misuse of the Emergency Act.
> 
> None of these actions were required.  Existing laws could have been used.  I hope Trudeau, Freeland and Co end up eventually paying dearly for their lack of leadership but I won't hold my breath.


My mind’s not yet made up on that. I was too front line to have a decent view, but on the back end I do have a decent appreciation of legal mechanisms to curb financial contributions to criminality (basically the tools in PCMLTFA and the various sanctions mechanisms). I’ll be interested to see what comes out of the inquiry, and by some academic study into it from people who _really_ know their stuff. I’m open to the possibility of coming to a conclusion one way or the other about it, and to entail ly believing on steps may have been necessary and others not. I’m not there yet.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Fair enough, cards on the table time. I wonder how well all you city-zens in THE EAST have slept for the past six years, plus, while the absolute clown college that you put in office has dismantled the resource sector in Western Canada? How do you sleep knowing the number of families that have been disenfranchised, dismembered, and made destitute by YOUR government? My bet is it's the sleep of the angels. The protest itself was a stupid thing, and you're right, I've made no secret of my opinion. But the mandates were the final straw for a lot of blue collar people who just want to work and feed their families, oh, and pay their taxes, btw. The mandates just broke the skin on a festering boil. I really do have a hard time feeling sorry for people who went without sleep for a couple of weeks. There are people out here who lose sleep every night wondering how they're going to feed their kids. Sounds like melodrama? It's not. Maybe the hope was that those people would put the pressure where it belonged, rather than demand the horse cavalry. Silly us western, rural, rednecks with unacceptable beliefs for expecting support from fellow Canadians. Another lesson learned.


Well, the people losing sleep weren’t, largely, government bureaucrats. The people living in downtown Ottawa are generally not the decision makers. They’re the ones who sell the decision makers coffee and beer and clothes and iPhones. They very much also worry about getting by, about if they can feed their kids, make tuition and rent, or ever escape the rent trap.

I didn’t vote for the party currently in power either. It’s no more my government than it is yours. It is, however, jointly _ours_, and we have a lawful process to change it when the time comes. A lot of the people who occupied our downtown had ceased to be believers in that lawful process and wanted us to join them to facilitate something different. I draw a big line there.


----------



## FSTO (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Except rural areas are given disproportionately large representation in federal and provincial governments - urban votes are worth significantly less than rural.


Yes rural has lots of trained seals on the back bench. But all of the important cabinet posts are held by urban ridings, if not a majority of downtown urban ridings.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Well, the people losing sleep weren’t, largely, government bureaucrats. The people living in downtown Ottawa are generally not the decision makers. They’re the ones who sell the decision makers coffee and beer and clothes and iPhones. They very much also worry about getting by, about if they can feed their kids, make tuition and rent, or ever escape the rent trap.
> 
> I didn’t vote for the party currently in power either. It’s no more my government than it is yours. It is, however, jointly _ours_, and we have a lawful process to change it when the time comes. A lot of the people who occupied our downtown had ceased to be believers in that lawful process and wanted us to join them to facilitate something different. I draw a big line there.


Kind of tough to do that when the election is won before the polls in Nanaimo are even open. It's your government in the sense that you enjoy their largesse due to your geographical location, rather than their depredations due to mine. Maybe get posted to Boyle, or Slave Lake, or Manning AB for five years and see if your opinion doesn't change. Life in District 13 sucks compared to the capitol.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Nah, I’m not even talking about me personally being down there mixed up in it. That was just a few days of work and some time away from family over a few weeks. That’s nothing anyone on this site would be fazed by. I’m talking about the impact on those in our city who _don’t_ have a nice house in the suburbs and _weren’t_ insulated by wealth and distance from being directly impacted by it when they tried to sleep or go to work. I have friends whose lives were really screwed up for some time by this. We also have a whole city wrestling with whether it can even rely on its own police service.
> 
> So that’s where my really intense engagement comes from; not the fact that I personally had to deal with a few people who were being idiots. The convoy was nothing new there, it was just concentrated and sensational in that regard.
> 
> I had said it much earlier in the thread, but the blockade at the bridge in Windsor was, IMHO, the greater threat to the national interest.


And Doug Ford managed to deal with it, using existing laws, without turning it in to a broadway spectacle.  Which again, really makes me question what exactly they are smoking in Ottawa?



brihard said:


> My mind’s not yet made up on that. I was too front line to have a decent view, but on the back end I do have a decent appreciation of legal mechanisms to curb financial contributions to criminality (basically the tools in PCMLTFA and the various sanctions mechanisms). I’ll be interested to see what comes out of the inquiry, and by some academic study into it from people who _really_ know their stuff. I’m open to the possibility of coming to a conclusion one way or the other about it, and to entail ly believing on steps may have been necessary and others not. I’m not there yet.


Well I can tell you my wife, who works in the Financial Sector at the coal face was none to happy about having to tell regular Canadians they could not access their money that belonged to them that they had earned.  It was unprecedented and quite frankly a bunch of BS.

Significant trust was lost in the Banks and our Financial Institutions.  The Government should not be able to dip its fingers in to Banks and tell them how to run their business.  People put their money in Banks because it's supposed to be safeguarded there.  

You're starting to sound like you've been in Ottawa too long.


----------



## mariomike (11 Sep 2022)

> Northern Ontario should in all reality, be its own province.



Read this, about that,



> Thunder Bay mayor Lynn Peterson opposed Murdoch's proposal, stating that one of the perceived issues was inconsequential, specifically that policies defined in the Ontario legislature are not Toronto-centric.[28]
> Michael Gravelle, the  Minister of Northern Devlopment and Mines, said "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be".[28]











						Proposal for the Province of Toronto - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




As far as Alberta goes, my sister retired to Cold Lake and loves it.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> And Doug Ford managed to deal with it, using existing laws, without turning it in to a broadway spectacle.  Which again, really makes me question what exactly they are smoking in Ottawa?
> 
> 
> Well I can tell you my wife, who works in the Financial Sector at the coal face was none to happy about having to tell regular Canadians they could not access their money that belonged to them that they had earned.  It was unprecedented and quite frankly a bunch of BS.
> ...


As I said, I want to see more information before I commit to an opinion. I know that these decisions would have been made based off far more information than I presently have access to or knowledge of, and that a lot of technical expertise would have gone into offering options. We’re I to make a decision on my position right now it would be based on emotion, not a proper appreciation of the facts and evidence.

Your wife may not have told you that the banks interface with government all the time and already have a massive regulatory compliance framework to work in. Ever done a transaction over $10,000? FINTRAC likely has it. Even at the teller level they regularly identify suspicious transactions that get flagged, written up, sent to FINTRAC and, yes, can be and regularly are shared with law enforcement. I’ve been eyeballs deep in that (on a completely unrelated matter). So, the measures that were taken with regards to the convoy were not exactly unprecedented; they were based off existing tools, but then were extended and applied in an emergency. I remain to be convinced one way or the other as to the need for them, and to be honest once I do have an opinion on that particular government policy I may be more prudent to keep it to myself anyway.

EDIT TO ADD: I absolutely will concede that whatever justification there may have been for use of certain financial sector tools, once actually applied they ended up capturing people more broadly than I expect was the intent. The government may also not have adequately considered the additional unilateral steps banks will take to ‘de-risk’ by speculatively closing off products and services to individuals if the bank is concerned it may subject them to liability. They can, will, and regularly do do that even just based on a suspicion that a customer’s financial dealings may be dirty- and the definition of what could legally be ‘dirty’ was briefly very uncertain and in flux last winter.


----------



## Weinie (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> As I said, I want to see more information before I commit to an opinion. I know that these decisions would have been made based off far more information than I presently have access to or knowledge of, and that a lot of technical expertise would have gone into offering options. We’re I to make a decision on my position right now it would be based on emotion, not a proper appreciation of the facts and evidence.
> 
> Your wife may not have told you that the banks interface with government all the time and already have a massive regulatory compliance framework to work in. Ever done a transaction over $10,000? FINTRAC likely has it. Even at the teller level they regularly identify suspicious transactions that get flagged, written up, sent to FINTRAC and, yes, can be and regularly are shared with law enforcement. I’ve been eyeballs deep in that (on a completely unrelated matter). So, the measures that were taken with regards to the convoy were not exactly unprecedented; they were based off existing tools, but then were extended and applied in an emergency. I remain to be convinced one way or the other as to the need for them, and to be honest once I do have an opinion on that particular government policy I may be more prudent to keep it to myself anyway.
> 
> *EDIT TO ADD: I absolutely will concede that whatever justification there may have been for use of certain financial sector tools, once actually applied they ended up capturing people more broadly than I expect was the intent. The government may also not have adequately considered the additional unilateral steps banks will take to ‘de-risk’ by speculatively closing off products and services to individuals if the bank is concerned it may subject them to liability. They can, will, and regularly do do that even just based on a suspicion that a customer’s financial dealings may be dirty- and the definition of what could legally be ‘dirty’ was briefly very uncertain and in flux last winter.*


It is a slippery slope. One that the *private *sector will seize (with tacit government approval) to their advantage every time.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> It is a slippery slope. One that the *private *sector will seize (with tacit government approval) to their advantage every time.


Sorry but on this one I think you’re missing it. The only advantage to a bank to reporting suspicious transactions or cutting off a customer is to avoid regulatory or criminal risk. The banks act unilaterally to avoid complicity in money laundering, sanctions violation, etc. This isn’t the banks taking advantage of government policy to do something they’d otherwise not get to to, and which advantages them. Left to their own devices, banks would be happy to largely ignore potential laundering if they get to keep taking fees.

Because those rules ARE there, banks are very risk averse and sometimes proactive in ending customer relationships if they bank has concerns about what they see. They may also share information amongst banks to help other institutions avoid potential criminal exposure and fraud.


----------



## Weinie (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Sorry but on this one I think you’re missing it. The only advantage to a bank to reporting suspicious transactions or cutting off a customer is to avoid regulatory or criminal risk. The banks act unilaterally to avoid complicity in money laundering, sanctions violation, etc. This isn’t the banks taking advantage of government policy to do something they’d otherwise not get to to, and which advantages them. Left to their own devices, banks would be happy to largely ignore potential laundering if they get to keep taking fees.
> 
> Because those rules ARE there, banks are very risk averse and sometimes proactive in ending customer relationships if they bank has concerns about what they see. They may also share information amongst banks to help other institutions avoid potential criminal exposure and fraud.


Sorry Brihard, we r talking past each other. I wasn't referring to the convoy specifically, I was talking writ large.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sorry Brihard, we r talking past each other. I wasn't referring to the convoy specifically, I was talking writ large.


Ah, ok.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

Every dollar in a frozen bank account earns the bank money.


----------



## Weinie (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Every dollar in a frozen bank account earns the bank money.


Fixed that assumption. Not to be pedantic, but the banks in Canada are ruthless when it comes to profits. And no government will confront them.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Fixed that assumption. Not to be pedantic, but the banks in Canada are ruthless when it comes to profits. And no government will confront them.


Of course. My point was that at least with an unfrozen account, I can decide what to do and where to put my money. These poor fuckers do not. It's a stable revenue platform for the bank as long as that fixed amount just sits there.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Sorry, just looking back again- I wasn’t talking specifically about the convoy either; banks do the things I described regularly, though usually it’s closing accounts and forcing the customer to take their money elsewhere. That’s a very normal thing pre-convoy. It does still result in the bank losing out on fees, credit interest, etc. closing accounts is only in the banks’ interest because it steers them clear of legal trouble for regulatory noncompliance. This stuff nearly all comes from the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act. There’s a huge amount of regulation on financial institutions / money services businesses.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Sep 2022)

Well I guess those complaining about banks just shouldn't use them then....


----------



## Weinie (11 Sep 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well I guess those complaining about banks just shouldn't use them then....


Well, I guess those complaining about banks have little choice...............


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Of course. My point was that at least with an unfrozen account, I can decide what to do and where to put my money. These poor fuckers do not. It's a stable revenue platform for the bank as long as that fixed amount just sits there.



Do we know if all the account shave been unlocked for are some still locked up?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> As I said, I want to see more information before I commit to an opinion. I know that these decisions would have been made based off far more information than I presently have access to or knowledge of, and that a lot of technical expertise would have gone into offering options. We’re I to make a decision on my position right now it would be based on emotion, not a proper appreciation of the facts and evidence.
> 
> Your wife may not have told you that the banks interface with government all the time and already have a massive regulatory compliance framework to work in. Ever done a transaction over $10,000? FINTRAC likely has it. Even at the teller level they regularly identify suspicious transactions that get flagged, written up, sent to FINTRAC and, yes, can be and regularly are shared with law enforcement. I’ve been eyeballs deep in that (on a completely unrelated matter). So, the measures that were taken with regards to the convoy were not exactly unprecedented; they were based off existing tools, but then were extended and applied in an emergency. I remain to be convinced one way or the other as to the need for them, and to be honest once I do have an opinion on that particular government policy I may be more prudent to keep it to myself anyway.
> 
> EDIT TO ADD: I absolutely will concede that whatever justification there may have been for use of certain financial sector tools, once actually applied they ended up capturing people more broadly than I expect was the intent. The government may also not have adequately considered the additional unilateral steps banks will take to ‘de-risk’ by speculatively closing off products and services to individuals if the bank is concerned it may subject them to liability. They can, will, and regularly do do that even just based on a suspicion that a customer’s financial dealings may be dirty- and the definition of what could legally be ‘dirty’ was briefly very uncertain and in flux last winter.


I'm sorry Brihard but you're going to have a tough time convincing me that single mom's who happened to donate $50.00 to the convoy protest from a Facebook advert are worthy of drawing gun fire from FINTRAC

As predicted, Government's are now misusing legislation and policies originally conceived during the 9/11 + Early GWoT era.


----------



## dapaterson (11 Sep 2022)

Certain (not all) convoy groups were committed to the overthrow of the government of Canada.  That's kind of a big thing.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Sep 2022)

Much of life resembles thermodynamics; advising people to "go elsewhere" is worthless.

There is a game.  You can't win, you can't break even, you can't quit the game.

Much of what is modern finances is such a game.


----------



## lenaitch (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> TBH, citizens of Ottawa have suffered from eroding trust in OPS for years.  Provincial legislation permitting officers to quit the day before an adverse finding / punishment in disciplinary matters make it worse; but with police credibly accused of taking bribes, assault, sexual assault, planting weapon, theft of cash from investigation scenes...


To be clear for those who might not understand the nuance, dodging Code of Conduct disciplinary findings by resigning does not absolve them from any criminal charges.  Protracted proceedings under the Police Services Act has been an issue across board for quite a few years, and members who might not have complete confidence in their innocence will want to maximize their pension contributions.  When the severest penalty under the PSA is termination, trying to maintain jurisdiction of someone who is not longer an employee seems rather pointless.


----------



## mariomike (11 Sep 2022)

Remius may have said it best,



Remius said:


> There are upwards of 250 lawful demonstrations a year in Ottawa.   Why does breaking up an unlawful one translate into Ottawa not being accessible to all?  Because one side that purports to be about law and order can’t fathom that maybe their side didn’t actually follow law and order?





> I'm sorry Brihard but you're going to have a tough time convincing me that single mom's who happened to donate $50.00 to the convoy protest from a Facebook advert are worthy of drawing gun fire from FINTRAC



Hope everything turned out ok for her.









						Social media post from B.C. politician claims single mom's bank account was frozen over convoy donation
					

A B.C. politician vowed to keep fighting for a 'single mom from Chilliwack' who allegedly had her bank account frozen for donating $50 to the truck convoy.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Sep 2022)

To be fair, I used to get called form various MP offices when someone complained to them about our regulatory process. Normally the complaint left out many of the details and then they would back off. So for a MP to say "I will fight for this person" is a promise made on what they heard. Once they get the full picture they either drop it or try to find a way to resolve it.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Certain (not all) convoy groups were committed to the overthrow of the government of Canada.  That's kind of a big thing.


Prove it.  Big inflammatory statements, with not a whole lot of substance behind them.

The fact that the Freedom Convoy illicited more of a heavy handed response than the 2020 Rail and Pipeline blockade shows what a gongshow this Country has become.



mariomike said:


> Remius may have said it best,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you read what I wrote above, you would know that my spouse works in the Financial Industry.  She dealt with a number of cases like the one in the article above. You won't hear it disclosed because it's all confidential but these cases definitely exist.

Lets not forget that even some of the information was obtained illegally after hackers gained access to databases in the United States and publicly shared peoples donation information, a crime in and of itself.


----------



## dapaterson (11 Sep 2022)

Prove it? Read their manifesto.


----------



## lenaitch (11 Sep 2022)

childs56 said:


> There in is the problem. The majority of people did not and still do not know about the agreement for the protesters. Nor do they know that when one agreement was reached council wanted it changed. The Police seemed to have a good time in the beginning. Many enjoying the peaceful protest often seeing being delivered coffee and food.  When the influence of certain politicians and media spoke up things went from annoying to panic and then fear.
> Rumors of firearms being carried by the Truckers, was false, rumor of the protest blocking the bridges proved to be false ( many residents acknowledge that the Police themselves were blocking the bridges and not allowing citizens through) rumors of a fire being started in a apartment lobby by the protesters again false ( started by some local thugs), rumors that a food bank/ soup kitchen was attacked along with the security guard there,. Funny how they have video of some much else but not of these incidents, has yet to be proven, but wow did these incidents get spread pretty quick.
> I did watch videos where the local Police shut down local businesses who were open during the protests. I did read where the majority of the funding raised was from foreign influences, again proven false.  I did read the reports where crime was significantly down in the downtown core area of the city during the protest. I also read where the protest was actually packing up the day before the EMA was enacted, even the Police at multiple levels stated numerous times that they did not need, require or ask for the EMA to be enacted. Against what the Feds stated. But dont let facts get in the way.
> the Inquiry into the EMA has been very interesting. Pretty much they over reached their authority to enact the EMA, then kept over stretching it when they seized funds of citizens and kept it going. Even the RCMP have said they did not ask for the act to be done. As for the actual truth. Trudeau and his supporters got scared, because the blue collar part of society got mad from coast to coast. Raised more money in two weeks and then a second time in another two weeks then the liberals or ndp can for their entire campaign.
> ...


Rumours turning out to be false; now my world makes no sense.

I am aware of reported conversations between OPS personnel and persons representing the convoy.  Perhaps it my interpretation but it strikes me they were discussing accommodations for vehicle staging, temporary parking and shuttling between there and the Parliament Hill area, not a protracted, on-street encampment.  Most police services in the past few years have expended considerable effort to be proactive with protesters and other civil unrest event organizers.  It is not always successful.  One problem has been the level of training available to the 'contact members' and how they manage the flow of information.  In a couple of instances I am aware of, the members had to be reminded who they worked for.

I do find fault with individual police service members posing for selfies and other such things with the protestors.  There is a way to maintain a professional relationship without betraying your role.

I'm agnostic whether the EM declaration was needed, but we will see what the findings say.  Clearly, if the OPS had not allowed the protest/convoy to become entrenched, the issue would have been moot.

I was always curious about the truckers' complaints that the vaccine mandates prevented them from crossing the borders when, for most of the period, they could not have entered the US unvaccinated anyway.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Prove it? Read their manifesto.


I could also write a manifesto and publish it today.  That doesn't mean it's reflective of 99% of the protesters that were there.

I wouldn't even be surprised if you told me the security & intelligence services wrote up a manifesto and published it themselves as part of a PSYOP campaign.

We are talking about the Federal Government here, they pull all sorts of dirty tricks 😄:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/rcmp-bombed-oil-site-in-dirty-tricks-campaign-1.188599
		


While we are on the topic of the RCMP, they literally disbanded the RCMP Security Service and held a Royal Commission due to rampant criminality:






						Royal Commission of Inquiry into Certain Activities of the RCMP - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




The vast majority of Police Officers are good people hired to do the traditional job of law enforcement but you would be incredibly naive to think the Feds don't have their own small group of hired scoundrels and scumbags, buried in a basement somewhere, whose sole purpose is to do the dirty laundry.


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## Navy_Pete (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I could also write a manifesto and publish it today.  That doesn't mean it's reflective of 99% of the protesters that were there.
> 
> I wouldn't even be surprised if you told me the security & intelligence services wrote up a manifesto and published it themselves as part of a PSYOP campaign.
> 
> ...


Seriously? Where do you think TUPOC, the Queen of Canada and these other clowns have in mind?

When they talk about sovereign citizens, or wants the GG to remove the elected representatives from power and replace them with a 'people's council' that's all directed at an overthrow of the government. They also aren't talking just Trudeau, they wanted to relieve the entire HoC, so was weird to see PP and others with them.

The weird thing is a lot of these clowns are talking about American laws, like they somehow apply in Canada.

The judge at the Tamara Lich bail hearing (or maybe Pat King?) agreeing with them that they believed in the First Amendment, and that Manitoba was in fact a province was both funny and sad. The frustration is real everywhere, but the lack of basic civics understanding was a bit shocking.


----------



## Spencer100 (11 Sep 2022)

Back to the banks role.  It was the banks that had the EMA stopped. Trudeau had a tap on the shoulder.  He was told to stop it.  My bank contacts told me they were seeing billions in outflows.  They got very scared.  People going to cash and companies and others moving money out of the country.   They had never seen anything like.  To this day money is outflowing to other places.  Decades of banking trust evaporated in days.  The freezing and monitoring of accounts was the single biggest dumb move ever.   And it will be the least reported and examined.   The banks had to step in and stop Trudeau.


----------



## Remius (11 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Prove it? Read their manifesto.


Not sure how some people missed that part of the the whole fiasco…









						Convoy plans to replace Canada's elected government the stuff of fantasy
					

Canada Unity doesn’t want a violent overthrow of the Trudeau administration, they are looking for help from the Senate and Governor General.




					torontosun.com
				




Even the sun called it out as absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm sorry Brihard but you're going to have a tough time convincing me that single mom's who happened to donate $50.00 to the convoy protest from a Facebook advert are worthy of drawing gun fire from FINTRAC
> 
> As predicted, Government's are now misusing legislation and policies originally conceived during the 9/11 + Early GWoT era.


That’s fine; I’m not trying to convince you, nor am I convinced myself. I also already caveated this kind of over breadth of the measures in one of my replies earlier today, when I was also saying that I don’t yet feel that I know enough to make up my mind on the approach more generally.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (11 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Seriously? Where do you think TUPOC, the Queen of Canada and these other clowns have in mind?
> 
> When they talk about sovereign citizens, or wants the GG to remove the elected representatives from power and replace them with a 'people's council' that's all directed at an overthrow of the government. They also aren't talking just Trudeau, they wanted to relieve the entire HoC, so was weird to see PP and others with them.
> 
> ...


So you're saying what I said isn't true:  the Government isn't guilty of ever pulling dirty tricks.

Mark Norman thanks you for your support 😄.   


Spencer100 said:


> Back to the banks role.  It was the banks that had the EMA stopped. Trudeau had a tap on the shoulder.  He was told to stop it.  My bank contacts told me they were seeing billions in outflows.  They got very scared.  People going to cash and companies and others moving money out of the country.   They had never seen anything like.  To this day money is outflowing to other places.  Decades of banking trust evaporated in days.  The freezing and monitoring of accounts was the single biggest dumb move ever.   And it will be the least reported and examined.   The banks had to step in and stop Trudeau.



 

Finally someone understands the gravity of the damage done.


----------



## Navy_Pete (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So you're saying what I said isn't true:  the Government isn't guilty of ever pulling dirty tricks.
> 
> Mark Norman thanks you for your support 😄.



False equivalence; just because they did Adm Norman dirty, doesn't mean people in the Freedom Convoy weren't openly calling for the elected GoC to be overthrown and replaced with self selected council. 

I'll even use the Toronto Sun as a ref for a bit of balance, but heard this ass clowns myself when I went down there myself;

Convoy plans to replace Canada's elected government the stuff of fantasy


----------



## childs56 (11 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Do we know if all the account shave been unlocked for are some still locked up?


That is a good question for the PM and the RCMP Commissioners themselves to answer. There was talk back in June that some bank accounts related to business were still seized and in review it may take upwards of a year to resolve.


----------



## childs56 (11 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> False equivalence; just because they did Adm Norman dirty, doesn't mean people in the Freedom Convoy weren't openly calling for the elected GoC to be overthrown and replaced with self selected council.
> 
> I'll even use the Toronto Sun as a ref for a bit of balance, but heard this ass clowns myself when I went down there myself;
> 
> Convoy plans to replace Canada's elected government the stuff of fantasy


That small group of people were trying to use the Governor General to use a piece of legislation to Dissolve the government and have them replaced. By what they deemed a good responsible interim government, that happened to be themselves. The joke is the GG only has that Authority to do something that drastic in a emergency, there are many checks and balances before such a process could be enacted.  Kind of like the EMA has checks and balances before it can be enacted oh wait never mind,


----------



## McG (11 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I wouldn't even be surprised if you told me the security & intelligence services wrote up a manifesto and published it themselves as part of a PSYOP campaign.


Dude, do you know who makes the cool aid that you drink? Between narratives of _Ukraine is also bad_ and the _federal government false-flagged the convoy_, you might be taking in a bit too much TikTok.


----------



## Mills Bomb (11 Sep 2022)

mariomike said:


> Remius may have said it best,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It also says that the story is being shared by many people who are skeptical of it, because there's no proof.


----------



## Remius (11 Sep 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> It also says that the story is being shared by many people who are skeptical of it, because there's no proof.


Doesn’t matter. Pretty sure she was killed by horses on the line.  Roberta Paulson was very real to many people every time she dies at protests.


----------



## QV (11 Sep 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Back to the banks role.  It was the banks that had the EMA stopped. Trudeau had a tap on the shoulder.  He was told to stop it.  My bank contacts told me they were seeing billions in outflows.  They got very scared.  People going to cash and companies and others moving money out of the country.   *They had never seen anything like*.  To this day money is outflowing to other places.  Decades of banking trust evaporated in days.  The freezing and monitoring of accounts was the single biggest dumb move ever.   And it will be the least reported and examined.   The banks had to step in and stop Trudeau.


That’s because the people have never seen anything like a Canadian government freezing bank accounts, especially for this scenario. 

Funny this isn‘t/wasn’t front page news at the time… it’s one of the biggest scandals of government overreach of our time.

There are far too many bootlicking yes-fucks in government today who believe they work for Trudeau and not the public.


----------



## QV (11 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> No need for professional PR plans to not be Dancing and pissing on a monument and using it as a political prop.  You just have to not be an a-hole.


Funny one group didn’t think they needed it, while another knew they would.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Doesn’t matter. Pretty sure she was killed by horses on the line.  Roberta Paulson was very real to many people every time she dies at protests.


Is that the woman that threw the bike at the RCMP?


----------



## Furniture (11 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Seriously? Where do you think TUPOC, the Queen of Canada and these other clowns have in mind?
> 
> When they talk about sovereign citizens, or wants the GG to remove the elected representatives from power and replace them with a 'people's council' that's all directed at an overthrow of the government. They also aren't talking just Trudeau, they wanted to relieve the entire HoC, so was weird to see PP and others with them.
> 
> ...



This is a classic case of "nut picking" to delegitimize the anger and frustration that lead to the convoy in the first place. Ie.

"Look at how nutty the leaders are, proof they're all nuts" 

I suspect the vast majority of people who showed up, particularly at the start, didn't care about the manifesto, they were there to show they were unhappy with the government. The government then went out of its way to attack those people verbally, causing some to become even more entrenched with the actual nuts.


----------



## QV (11 Sep 2022)

The convoy rolled to Ottawa and did what they did to make a point. If they just parked in protest at a truck stop in anytown Alberta nobody would notice or care.


----------



## QV (11 Sep 2022)

Furniture said:


> This is a classic case of "nut picking" to delegitimize the anger and frustration that lead to the convoy in the first place. Ie.
> 
> "Look at how nutty the leaders are, proof they're all nuts"
> 
> I suspect the vast majority of people who showed up, particularly at the start, didn't care about the manifesto, they were there to show they were unhappy with the government. The government then went out of its way to attack those people verbally, causing some to become even more entrenched with the actual nuts.


The people lining the highway in support agree with you.


----------



## brihard (11 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is that the woman that threw the bike at the RCMP?


In case anyone was wondering what actually happened there with the benefit of hindsight, crowd was getting very pushy-shovey with the front line of riot police; this was pretty much the start of the police-vs-crowd confrontation for the weekend and the crowd had a lot more resistance in them at that stage. People were getting arrested from that part of the crowd left, right and centre (it actually became a significant logistical challenge given how cold it was). Decision was made to send the Toronto Police mounted unit through to break up some space between police and the crowd. They did so, and two things happened about the same time; one, she ended up pretty much at the front of the crowd and either pushed or was pushed forward a bit, and two, one of the horses slipped a bit on snow that, by then, had been packed basically to ice. A friend of mine who rides was telling me afterwards how horses have pretty much no grip on that, and if given the choice, will step aside on a trail to avoid hard pack like that. She ended up partially under a horse as a result of this, and if I remember right ended up with a broken clavicle? Her walker did get badly busted up too. Just what a person with a walker was doing at the front of a crowd fighting police is an entirely separate matter, but anyway…

So yeah, one of those shitty things that no one wants to see happen, but sadly it did. For the rest of that day we had people yelling at us that a woman had died, though it didn’t take long to confirm it was BS.

All said and done I think she was actually the most serious injury in the whole event, which was quite remarkable.


----------



## mariomike (11 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Decision was made to send the Toronto Police mounted unit through to break up some space between police and the crowd.



I've seen our big beautiful Metro police horses at work many times. I don't really understand it, but they have a calming effect on angry people.


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Sep 2022)

Furniture said:


> This is a classic case of "nut picking" to delegitimize the anger and frustration that lead to the convoy in the first place. Ie.
> 
> "Look at how nutty the leaders are, proof they're all nuts"
> 
> I suspect the vast majority of people who showed up, particularly at the start, didn't care about the manifesto, they were there to show they were unhappy with the government. The government then went out of its way to attack those people verbally, causing some to become even more entrenched with the actual nuts.


Not really, they self selected themselves as leaders at the start, and de-legitimtized whatever it was the original message was supposed to be  (which they never really were clear on anyway). And then other groups also self selected themselves as leaders. At one point there was something like 4 different factions bargaining with the OPS, with a few others specifically coming out saying they had nothing to do with the others and wouldn't stick by whatever agreement the other factions might come to to relocate. None of them had the same point or demands; the only real consistent thing was they were frustrated and angry (at different things). Who exactly was the government supposed to try talking to?

These kinds of splits are probably present at most large scale protests, except they don't stick around for a month., or try and raise millions., so the fringe lunatics stay on the edges, instead of repeatedly getting in the spotlight.

There were a lot of 'F*ck Trudeau" flags, hats and tshirts floating around, with random people yelling at cashiers and other frontline workers they didn't need to wear a mask, we were all brainwashed etc. Their behaviour didn't exactly invite rational dialogue, and there were enough people behaving like that it was more than a small minority. And some are still sticking around (like TUPOC).

They would have made more effective point if they had stuck around for 3 days, kept the message consistent and simple, and then gone home. Instead they collectively behaved like assholes, and blew up a lot of sympathy and support they had at the start from everyone here who is also frustrated and angry, but still wants to be able to do things like have emergency service vehicles get through when they are called, or sleep.

Ottawa is pretty used to large scale protests and demonstrations, they happen here weekly, and in the summer there are usually a few concurrent ones on the go each week.


----------



## Furniture (12 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Not really, they self selected themselves as leaders at the start, and de-legitimtized whatever it was the original message was supposed to be  (which they never really were clear on anyway). And then other groups also self selected themselves as leaders. At one point there was something like 4 different factions bargaining with the OPS, with a few others specifically coming out saying they had nothing to do with the others and wouldn't stick by whatever agreement the other factions might come to to relocate. None of them had the same point or demands; the only real consistent thing was they were frustrated and angry (at different things). Who exactly was the government supposed to try talking to?
> 
> These kinds of splits are probably present at most large scale protests, except they don't stick around for a month., or try and raise millions., so the fringe lunatics stay on the edges, instead of repeatedly getting in the spotlight.
> 
> ...


There is a vast difference between being an obnoxious idiot, and seriously supporting the overthrow of the government. 

Were the people that stayed past the first weekend obnoxious? Yes. Did they dislike Trudeau? Yes. 

Thats not what constantly bringing up the manifesto is about though, it's about delegitimizing the whole protest. Just like saying it had no real goal, or organization... It was about anger and frustration, and was supported by people who aren't professional protestors so, of course they didn't come across as slick as the professionals. 

I live in Ottawa, where I live I didn't see too many angry residents other than ones directly downtown. Well... lots of angry government employees from the suburbs who complained about all the western rednecks, while working from home in the suburbs.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> All said and done I think she was actually the most serious injury in the whole event, which was quite remarkable.




As always, appreciate the insight brother.

Are we in agreement then that someone didn't "throw a bicycle" at th police horses as was previously reported?


----------



## Kilted (12 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is that the woman that threw the bike at the RCMP?


It was a man who threw the bike.


----------



## Kilted (12 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> As always, appreciate the insight brother.
> 
> Are we in agreement then that someone didn't "throw a bicycle" at th police horses as was previously reported?


It did happen, it was more of a pushing motion than an actual throw. That is, if the video that is associated with it is the actual incident. It is possible that no one present uploaded a video of the actual incident because it would support the police narrative.


----------



## brihard (12 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> As always, appreciate the insight brother.
> 
> Are we in agreement then that someone didn't "throw a bicycle" at th police horses as was previously reported?


We are not in agreement on that. I don’t know if that happened as well. I haven’t made any effort to find out about that part; I’d be going by what’s public on that like anyone else. I know a lot was going on and the crowd at that place and time was causing real problems.


----------



## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> It did happen, it was more of a pushing motion than an actual throw. That is, if the video that is associated with it is the actual incident. It is possible that no one present uploaded a video of the actual incident because it would support the police narrative.


Don't police video crowd interactions?  If so it would have been everywhere as an example of thuggish deplorable redneck behaviour that would justify a heavy response.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> There are far too many bootlicking yes-fucks in government today who believe they work for Trudeau and not the public.


This is absolutely a thing, IMO.   

PMO and PCO becoming PMCO, but at much lower levels within the Public Service…I definitely saw it in person post-2015.  While I believe there has always been some degree of ‘belief bleed over’ shall I call it in the public service, particularly in the federal PS, I think that factor has grown significantly under the current government…not only grown, but been deliberately influenced to curry favour between the Govt and PS.


----------



## IKnowNothing (12 Sep 2022)

Furniture said:


> There is a vast difference between being an obnoxious idiot, and seriously supporting the overthrow of the government.
> 
> Were the people that stayed past the first weekend obnoxious? Yes. Did they dislike Trudeau? Yes.
> 
> Thats not what constantly bringing up the manifesto is about though, it's about delegitimizing the whole protest.


There really was two distinct "protests."

There was a broader movement, the Canadians donating, that showed up on the weekend and left, waving flags at overpasses, etc.  This group was bigger, not homogenous, and largely not "in the know." 2nd, 3rd, 4th, hand information, supporting the idea the expressing frustration at the government.

Then there was the core protest. (Bauder, Barber, King, Laface etc) and the group in the hundreds that had either been organizing or being organized for weeks.  Those involved at some level with the very public planning of "Operation Bearhug", the ones that thought that they were actually going to get the MOU (or something like it) enacted by "choking out" the whole of Ottawa.  This group made up a much higher percentage of the long-haul occupiers than it did of the weekend protest and national support, but it very much did exist, and was at the core of the whole thing.   They only walked back that asinine document because they realized that the hype about the scale was BS and that they were going to fail.

Acknowledging that rotten core doesn't delegitimize the anger felt and peacefully expressed by the others, but refusing to do so is just burying ones head in the sand about what was attempted.


----------



## Weinie (12 Sep 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> This is absolutely a thing, IMO.
> 
> PMO and PCO becoming PMCO, but at much lower levels within the Public Service…I definitely saw it in person post-2015.  While I believe there has always been some degree of ‘belief bleed over’ shall I call it in the public service, particularly in the federal PS, I think that factor has grown significantly under the current government…not only grown, but been deliberately influenced to curry favour between the Govt and PS.


This is definitely a thing, so much so that I was are you fucking kidding me in 2019. It has gotten even worse. PMO rules. If you disagree, they will find you and kill you, professionally.


----------



## Weinie (12 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> This is definitely a thing, so much so that I was are you fucking kidding me in 2019. It has gotten even worse. PMO rules. If you disagree, they will find you and kill you, professionally.


Sorry, meant professionally in the job sense, not the hitman sense. Emoticon lacking.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sorry, meant professionally in the job sense, not the hitman sense. Emoticon lacking.


I read it as you intended, @Weinie


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sorry, meant professionally in the job sense, not the hitman sense. Emoticon lacking.









So they've gone full TBS? Never go full TBS.

uh... by that I mean TBS is great, and the pinnacle of our Public Service and you should always agree with what they say and not question their stupid ideas that only make sense if your head is [aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh]


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So they've gone full TBS? Never go full TBS.
> 
> uh... by that I mean TBS is great, and the pinnacle of our Public Service and you should always agree with what they say and not question their stupid ideas that only make sense if your head is [aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh]


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> We are not in agreement on that. I don’t know if that happened as well. I haven’t made any effort to find out about that part; I’d be going by what’s public on that like anyone else. I know a lot was going on and the crowd at that place and time was causing real problems.


That's fair. 



Kilted said:


> It did happen, it was more of a pushing motion than an actual throw.



If someone didn't throw a bike at a police officer then "it" didn't happen. Pushing motion with a bike? I can see that happening but that's a considerably different context imo.


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Sep 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> View attachment 73487


lol, sorry, I was trying to channel a George Lucas death gurgle!


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> lol, sorry, I was trying to channel a George Lucas death gurgle!


I almost used a knowing Obi-Wan Kenobi nod…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Sep 2022)

McG said:


> Dude, do you know who makes the cool aid that you drink? Between narratives of _Ukraine is also bad_ and the _federal government false-flagged the convoy_, you might be taking in a bit too much TikTok.


Did I say they false flagged the Entire Convoy?  I said it wouldn't shock me if the Federal Government had spread misinformation and use of False Flags as part of a deliberate PSYOP to support actions of the State. It's what the Government does.  We even have units that are trained to do it. 

I then provided a number of examples of where they in fact did just that.  You can read about them, they are historical facts. 

The assertion from certain people here is that the Convoy wanted to overthrow the Government.  That's just not the case, maybe a small segment of people that were there wanted to, but to say the purpose of the Convoy was to overthrow the Government, that's not true and is misinformation in itself.

As for Tiktok, that's for girls and children, and apparently, Vandoo Paratroopers 😄


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> That’s because the people have never seen anything like a Canadian government freezing bank accounts, especially for this scenario.
> 
> Funny this isn‘t/wasn’t front page news at the time… it’s one of the biggest scandals of government overreach of our time.
> 
> *There are far too many bootlicking yes-fucks in government today who believe they work for Trudeau and not the public.*


I couldn't agree more.  You had to have spent a lot of time in Ottawa to understand the true gravity of the situation.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Sep 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> It also says that the story is being shared by many people who are skeptical of it, because there's no proof.



Saying there is no proof is easy, especially in an environment where the only person who will speak of this allegation is the victim.  Ask the Bank about it, the answer you'll get will be similar to the Feds:

"We can't discuss that"  

Whether you choose to believe what I said earlier or not is true, that's your business.


----------



## Remius (12 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Saying there is no proof is easy, especially in an environment where the only person who will speak of this allegation is the victim.  Ask the Bank about it, the answer you'll get will be similar to the Feds:
> 
> "We can't discuss that"
> 
> Whether you choose to believe what I said earlier or not is true, that's your business.


Didn’t you ask for proof a few threads up that the manifesto was in fact written?  

“Prove it” you said?


----------



## Furniture (12 Sep 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> There really was two distinct "protests."
> 
> There was a broader movement, the Canadians donating, that showed up on the weekend and left, waving flags at overpasses, etc.  This group was bigger, not homogenous, and largely not "in the know." 2nd, 3rd, 4th, hand information, supporting the idea the expressing frustration at the government.
> 
> ...


I've never denied the existence of the nuts, they were on proud display for a few weeks... 

That said, apart from your post most people mentioning the nuts aren't differentiating between the nuts, and the people using the protest as a way to show anger toward the government in general. 



Good2Golf said:


> This is absolutely a thing, IMO.
> 
> PMO and PCO becoming PMCO, but at much lower levels within the Public Service…I definitely saw it in person post-2015.  While I believe there has always been some degree of ‘belief bleed over’ shall I call it in the public service, particularly in the federal PS, I think that factor has grown significantly under the current government…not only grown, but been deliberately influenced to curry favour between the Govt and PS.


100%

This was something that came up in the discussions of the "deep state" down in the USA. It's definitely not an organized conspiracy, but it is individuals using their power/position to advance their careers and political beliefs. 

The PS class is pretty strongly pro-LPC, and anti-CPC.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Didn’t you ask for proof a few threads up that the manifesto was in fact written?
> 
> “Prove it” you said?










Furniture said:


> I've never denied the existence of the nuts, they were on proud display for a few weeks...
> 
> That said, apart from your post most people mentioning the nuts aren't differentiating between the nuts, and the people using the protest as a way to show anger toward the government in general.


The entire "Freedom Convoy = Movement to overthrow Government" line is the same type of garbage the Russians use when they say "Ukraine = Nazis". 

It's just a way to try to de-legitimize an opposing Movement.  Anyone with half a brain knows the purpose of the Freedom Convoy was about ending COVID restrictions and lockdown mandates.  

Anyone who says it was about something else is just being willfully ignorant.


Furniture said:


> 100%
> 
> This was something that came up in the discussions of the "deep state" down in the USA. It's definitely not an organized conspiracy, but it is individuals using their power/position to advance their careers and political beliefs.
> 
> The PS class is pretty strongly pro-LPC, and anti-CPC.



Anyone who denies this is occurring is also being willfully ignorant.


----------



## QV (12 Sep 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> This is absolutely a thing, IMO.
> 
> PMO and PCO becoming PMCO, but at much lower levels within the Public Service…I definitely saw it in person post-2015.  While I believe there has always been some degree of ‘belief bleed over’ shall I call it in the public service, particularly in the federal PS, I think that factor has grown significantly under the current government…not only grown, but been deliberately influenced to curry favour between the Govt and PS.


It's enough of a thing that these days if you support any other party other than the LPC, you definitely don't want anyone at work to know about it or you'll get sidelined. You don't have to go very far up the ladder to experience this. 

I wonder if a PP government would be sabotaged and hindered by a uncooperative PS bureaucracy.


----------



## IKnowNothing (12 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's just a way to try to de-legitimize an opposing Movement.  Anyone with half a brain knows the purpose of the Freedom Convoy was about ending COVID restrictions and lockdown mandates.


Yeah I'm gonna go with 
-the stated intent of the organizers
-the "legal" mechanism they tried to use
-the Governor General's office being inundated with calls demanding she dissolve parliament


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Sep 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Yeah I'm gonna go with
> -the stated intent of the organizers
> -the "legal" mechanism they tried to use
> -the Governor General's office being inundated with calls demanding she dissolve parliament


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> It's enough of a thing that these days if you support any other party other than the LPC, you definitely don't want anyone at work to know about it or you'll get sidelined. You don't have to go very far up the ladder to experience this.
> 
> I wonder if a PP government would be sabotaged and hindered by a uncooperative PS bureaucracy.


Harper got a lot done, but telling someone what they want to do is illegal isn't 'hindering' the government, it's following the Constitution and laws. If the elected government doesn't like the laws, it's on them to update it first.

If you are suggesting the current PS processes are LPC friendly and 'getting things done' quickly because of it, I'd weep to see things being hindered. The NSS has been internally sniped for over a decade regardless of who is in power, so I think it's less about 'politics' than individual empires. I do give people the benefit of the doubt where they feel it's their responsibility to question things to make sure money is spent responsibly, but the delays caused by internal strife probably cost billions in delays.


----------



## Spencer100 (12 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Harper got a lot done, but telling someone what they want to do is illegal isn't 'hindering' the government, it's following the Constitution and laws. If the elected government doesn't like the laws, it's on them to update it first.
> 
> If you are suggesting the current PS processes are LPC friendly and 'getting things done' quickly because of it, I'd weep to see things being hindered. The NSS has been internally sniped for over a decade regardless of who is in power, so I think it's less about 'politics' than individual empires. I do give people the benefit of the doubt where they feel it's their responsibility to question things to make sure money is spent responsibly, but the delays caused by internal strife probably cost billions in delays.


The NSS and other programs are not to deliver a result or spend money wisely and responsibly.  It is first to spend money if that does get a deliverable than great but it is not a 100% requirement. 

And yes the PS is been politized.  One by the natural mind set of the people working and second very much by design by this government.  So much so that even if they lose the new government will not be able to move much around.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Harper got a lot done, but telling someone what they want to do is illegal isn't 'hindering' the government


I believe that Trudeau perceived(es) things differently…as did Jody Wilson-Raybould… 😉


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Sep 2022)

Some members of the PS were overtly relieved when the CPC was removed from government.  In fairness, some of the finance-oriented people were overtly relieved when Harper and Flaherty took over the reins for a while.  Not the same degree or kind of relief, though.

The convoy and associated (and still ongoing, but small) protests were not coherent.  Lumping all of them in with the Guy Fawkes faction is unhelpful.  It used to be pretty much the entire right side of sociopolitics could be depended on to be pro-order, pro-police, pro-Forces, etc.  That has changed; there's been some erosion.  It's not all on them.  The spillover of cranky right-wing politics [from the US] into the little people of Canada is unwelcome, but so is the spillover of smug politicians' responses to people the politicians apparently don't like.  I reasonably have tougher expectations of people who stand higher on the ladder of comfort and influence.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (12 Sep 2022)

Furniture said:


> I've never denied the existence of the nuts, they were on proud display for a few weeks...
> 
> That said, apart from your post most people mentioning the nuts *aren't differentiating between the nuts*, and the people using the protest as a way to show anger toward the government in general



But that is standard classification for a mixture of nuts . . . 




There may be expected, specific and identified items in the mixture, but . . . 




. . . there is usually a number of other things, not always welcome, healthy or helpful.  And if it's in the package, regardless of what it is, it's going to be identified as mixed nuts.


----------



## lenaitch (12 Sep 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Don't police video crowd interactions?  If so it would have been everywhere as an example of thuggish deplorable redneck behaviour that would justify a heavy response.


They do, but it has limitations, particularly in urban areas and where multiple 'scenes' are dynamic.  Altitude gives the best perspective, but you need access to rooftops, in this case multiple rooftops.  Drones help, but are limited by battery life.  Municipal traffic cameras can help but most aren't 'pan and zoom' so are of limited use.  It's not like on TV where they can instantly hack into every camera on the planet and zoom into to read licence plates from space.


----------



## brihard (12 Sep 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> There really was two distinct "protests."
> 
> There was a broader movement, the Canadians donating, that showed up on the weekend and left, waving flags at overpasses, etc.  This group was bigger, not homogenous, and largely not "in the know." 2nd, 3rd, 4th, hand information, supporting the idea the expressing frustration at the government.
> 
> ...



This is an excellent summation, and I can’t see any part of it that doesn’t jive very well with what we were seeing, hearing, and reading.

Much more of this will come out once the ideological leaders of the core group eventually get to trial (trials are being scheduled about a year from now), or perhaps earlier if the media goes after release of certain court authorizations that, for now, remain sealed. But anyway, you provided a great summary, and really the open source info in the public domain tells a great deal of the story anyway.


----------



## IKnowNothing (13 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> This is an excellent summation, and I can’t see any part of it that doesn’t jive very well with what we were seeing, hearing, and reading.
> 
> Much more of this will come out once the ideological leaders of the core group eventually get to trial (trials are being scheduled about a year from now), or perhaps earlier if the media goes after release of certain court authorizations that, for now, remain sealed. But anyway, you provided a great summary, and really the open source info in the public domain tells a great deal of the story anyway.


Thanks.

And that summary is why I'm so frustrated at politicians on both sides of the aisle for their handling of this.  If they couldn't/couldn't be bothered to get to a similar level of understanding and issue clearly articulated statements capturing that reality... they shouldn't be in office.  That goes for Libs that lumped the masses in with the criminals to delegitimize, and the Cons that wink at/ bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge the prime role the criminals played.


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Sep 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> There really was two distinct "protests."
> 
> There was a broader movement, the Canadians donating, that showed up on the weekend and left, waving flags at overpasses, etc.  This group was bigger, not homogenous, and largely not "in the know." 2nd, 3rd, 4th, hand information, supporting the idea the expressing frustration at the government.
> 
> ...


That's what I saw and heard on my almost daily walks through Ottawa's downtown core (I live there - just a couple of blocks from one of the major "parking lots" on Kent Street). I saw, on TV, the incoherent, grade-school babbling of some of the "spokespeople," and laughed, albeit in considerable dismay, at the state of public education in Canada. But when I went for my daily walk I met people - many polite, working class people from well outside of Ottawa - who were here, at some personal cost, for a day or two just to express their support for those who were shouting angry, crude, rude slogans at Justin Trudeau and, more broadly, at the people - officials and voters - who enable him.

I was impressed with the real, heartfelt _anger_; I was depressed by the notion that the "occupation" was, in any way, a proper method of expressing that anger.

I remain fully committed to the notion that everyone has a *right* - including a right to inconvenience me and my family - to march to Parliament Hill, to mill about, to cook hotdogs (and even drink a wobbly-pop or two (hidden in a brown paper bag, of course)) all while shouting obscenities at the various groups - government and opposition - who we elected to speak for us. I am also committed to the notion that the authorities (local, provincial and national) have a duty to, at some reasonable* point, say "right, that's it for you lot: move along or I'll give you a swift kick in the arse."

I have no idea what those authorities knew and didn't know, nor do I have any idea about how they analyzed whatever information they had. _*I know *_that the City of Ottawa *failed *the people who live and work in downtown Ottawa.

---
*Define "reasonable." Aye, there's the rub.


----------



## IKnowNothing (13 Sep 2022)

@Edward Campbell
Excellent post, captured my thoughts and feelings exactly.

As to defining reasonable-
Coutts should have been broken as fast as Windsor, Kenney was a spineless hypocrite
Ottawa should have been allowed the weekend (and any subsequent weekends as long as people wanted to return), Monday and Tuesday a stiff ramp up of ticketing (trespassing, City parking, CVOR violations, orders to disperse) and broken up Wednesday

Controversially - in a perfect world Bauder and the like would have arrested for seditious conspiracy the moment they put that MOU forward while leading a blockade, but that would have been an absolute shit show.


----------



## Navy_Pete (13 Sep 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Some members of the PS were overtly relieved when the CPC was removed from government.  In fairness, some of the finance-oriented people were overtly relieved when Harper and Flaherty took over the reins for a while.  Not the same degree or kind of relief, though.
> 
> The convoy and associated (and still ongoing, but small) protests were not coherent.  Lumping all of them in with the Guy Fawkes faction is unhelpful.  It used to be pretty much the entire right side of sociopolitics could be depended on to be pro-order, pro-police, pro-Forces, etc.  That has changed; there's been some erosion.  It's not all on them.  The spillover of cranky right-wing politics [from the US] into the little people of Canada is unwelcome, but so is the spillover of smug politicians' responses to people the politicians apparently don't like.  I reasonably have tougher expectations of people who stand higher on the ladder of comfort and influence.


Some members of the PS will be overtly relieved when Trudeau is gone as well, and similarly lumping the PS together into a single faction is also unhelpful, as is pretending the Guy Fawkes faction didn't play a fairly significant role in the core group that was organizing, creating and prolonging the protest.

None of these groups are homogenous masses, but ignoring the nut jobs in the crowd and how crowd dynamics work is naive as well. Usually only takes a few nut cases to start a riot, and it was a potential powder keg for about a month, with lots of arseholes running around with lighters trying to start something.


----------



## QV (13 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Some members of the PS will be overtly relieved when Trudeau is gone as well, and similarly lumping the PS together into a single faction is also unhelpful, as is pretending the Guy Fawkes faction didn't play a fairly significant role in the core group that was organizing, creating and prolonging the protest.
> 
> None of these groups are homogenous masses, but ignoring the nut jobs in the crowd and how crowd dynamics work is naive as well. Usually only takes a few nut cases to start a riot, and it was a potential powder keg for about a month, with lots of arseholes running around with lighters trying to start something.


I really wish the PS unions would STFU about what party to vote for.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Sep 2022)

Some of the people running around with lighters sit in Parliament, and ought not goad others.


----------



## Furniture (13 Sep 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> But that is standard classification for a mixture of nuts . . .
> 
> View attachment 73495
> 
> ...


If the same standard was applied to all protests you'd have a valid point, but it isn't...


----------



## mariomike (13 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> I really wish the PS unions would STFU about what party to vote for.



I was in a municipal PS union. We supported politicians who supported us.

Perhaps the federal and provincial unions have similar political endorsement philosophies.

Our union made its political endorsement decisions based on the core issues of concern to our members' health and safety, economic well-being, retirement security, right to collectively bargain and other aspects pertaining to the job.

We stood with the candidates who had a record of standing with us and whose policy decisions stand to benefit us when it comes to those issues.

Whether or not members use the unions basket of issues to guide their voting is up to them*. The union never tells members how to vote,* but because the union's job is to protect our interests and because politicians make virtually all the decisions that affect our job, we support the candidate who stands with us on our issues.

It’s the union's role and responsibility to make recommendations based on where the candidates stand on our issues, labor issues and issues important to the financial well-being of our members and their families.

To be clear, the union NEVER controlled who we voted for. Members were always free to vote for the candidates and party and issues that were important to them.


----------



## mariomike (13 Sep 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I was impressed with the real, heartfelt _anger_; I was depressed by the notion that the "occupation" was, in any way, a proper method of expressing that anger.



Some people, presumably from out of town, seemed to enjoy being part of the "occupation". From what I saw on TV, they actually looked happy and proud of themselves. Perhaps not everyone, but that was my general perception.

But, I read somewhere, "Keep cool. Anger is not an arguement."


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Sep 2022)

mariomike said:


> Some people, presumably from out of town, seemed to enjoy being part of the "occupation". From what I saw on TV, they actually looked happy and proud of themselves. Perhaps not everyone, but that was my general perception.
> 
> But, I read somewhere, "Keep cool. Anger is not an arguement."


When you're fed a regular diet of cock from that town, maybe it feels good to be able to bite down, just a little, for once.


----------



## Spencer100 (13 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Some members of the PS will be overtly relieved when Trudeau is gone as well, and similarly lumping the PS together into a single faction is also unhelpful, as is pretending the Guy Fawkes faction didn't play a fairly significant role in the core group that was organizing, creating and prolonging the protest.
> 
> None of these groups are homogenous masses, but ignoring the nut jobs in the crowd and how crowd dynamics work is naive as well. Usually only takes a few nut cases to start a riot, and it was a potential powder keg for about a month, with lots of arseholes running around with lighters trying to start something.


There is a large group think in the PS.  And at higher levels the range of thinking narrows very much.   When talking to the higher level government management types I can almost guess what comes out of their mouths in meetings. 

Line government worker is more divest bunch.  But still skewing "left" of the general population.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Sep 2022)

COVID has driven a number of federal departments to hire best candidates, regardless of where they live, instead of hiring people because they are in Ottawa.  A WFH / virtual federal public service give the opportunity of bringing a more diverse public service into play - diverse in terms of locations and experiences.  It's exciting to see, and better for the government.

(Obviously, customer facing staff need to be where they work, but de-Ottawa-ing policy staff should improve the PS.)


----------



## Remius (13 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> COVID has driven a number of federal departments to hire best candidates, regardless of where they live, instead of hiring people because they are in Ottawa.  A WFH / virtual federal public service give the opportunity of bringing a more diverse public service into play - diverse in terms of locations and experiences.  It's exciting to see, and better for the government.
> 
> (Obviously, customer facing staff need to be where they work, but de-Ottawa-ing policy staff should improve the PS.)


Yes.  But some think the wfh crew does nothing and still get paid.  Can’t change people’s perceptions, biases and general “have no idea what they are talking about” talking points.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Yes.  But some think the wfh crew does nothing and still get paid.  Can’t change people’s perceptions, biases and general “have no idea what they are talking about” talking points.


I mean the people who were supposed to support us when we were deployed were WFH. 

The support was garbage, mostly because there is no accountability in the Government or PS.  

Changing perceptions works both ways 😉


----------



## QV (13 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> COVID has driven a number of federal departments to hire best candidates, regardless of where they live, instead of hiring people because they are in Ottawa.  A WFH / virtual federal public service give the opportunity of bringing a more diverse public service into play - diverse in terms of locations and experiences.  It's exciting to see, and better for the government.
> 
> (Obviously, customer facing staff need to be where they work, but de-Ottawa-ing policy staff should improve the PS.)


Not if middle managers and up must still be bilingual.


----------



## Remius (13 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Not if middle managers and up must still be bilingual.


That’s a whole other issue and you’ll get no argument from me when it comes to that.  

My previous team had 2 people working remotely outside of the NCR and both outside of Ontario. 

My current team/group has 4 that I know of that are outside the NCR with at least 1 of those out of province.

My spouse has made arrangements for a team member to work from out west due to her husband being CAF and posted out west. 

There is a golden opportunity if hiring managers take it and if they can arrange telework.  I can tell you that the PS is struggling to recruit and hire right now so expanding the base outside their normal area of selection is great solution to that problem.


----------



## mariomike (13 Sep 2022)

> I was depressed by the notion that the "occupation" was, in any way, a proper method of expressing that anger.



I wasn't there. I'm symathetic to those who were forced to live and work through it.


----------



## Furniture (13 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean the people who were supposed to support us when we were deployed were WFH.
> 
> The support was garbage, mostly because there is no accountability in the Government or PS.
> 
> Changing perceptions works both ways 😉


When I started deploying with the navy in 2012 our support was garbage, it didn't improve by 2017 when I did my last deployment... WFH is not the problem, garbage support, and a lack of accountability when things go wrong is.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Sep 2022)

Furniture said:


> When I started deploying with the navy in 2012 our support was garbage, it didn't improve by 2017 when I did my last deployment... WFH is not the problem, garbage support, and a lack of accountability when things go wrong is.


Agreed but with it already being bad enough, we shouldn't try and actually make it worse 😉


----------



## Furniture (13 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Agreed but with it already being bad enough, we shouldn't try and actually make it worse 😉


It's a good thing you're out, what you said goes against everything DND stands for.


----------



## Remius (15 Sep 2022)

Ottawa police officer accused of donating to 'Freedom Convoy' faces misconduct charge
					

An Ottawa police officer is facing a misconduct under the Police Services Act for allegedly donating money to the 'Freedom Convoy' during the protest in downtown Ottawa.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




I think this is the only one so far with OPS.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Sep 2022)

I guess Poilievre's association with the Convoy wasn't as self-destructing as we thought.


----------



## McG (18 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I guess Poilievre's association with the Convoy wasn't as self-destructing as we thought.


I don’t know the answer, but that might be best judged after the next federal election.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Sep 2022)

McG said:


> I don’t know the answer, but that might be best judged after the next federal election.


ADHD is a characteristic of the majority of voters.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Sep 2022)

McG said:


> I don’t know the answer, but that might be best judged after the next federal election.


There's still plenty "they're all nazi's" blood to squeeze out of the convoy stone however I think the LPC will wisely put some time and distance on it until closer to the next election.


----------



## dimsum (18 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I guess Poilievre's association with the Convoy wasn't as self-destructing as we thought.


Because he handily won CPC leadership?  I'd say that's more a signal that CPC (or its card-carrying members) are shifting farther right as a party.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Because he handily won CPC leadership?  I'd say that's more a signal that CPC (or its card-carrying members) are shifting farther right as a party.


Maybe. Or he's just more likeable and relatable. I think gay immigrants should be able to get married, have abortions, and pray to Chuchulu. I don't consider myself far right and I would have voted for him.

I'm not exactly politically savvy but it almost seems like Pierre=farther right is one of those scare tactics. 
How Pierre Poilievre is winning new support among young, diverse voters​
It reminds me of how all the convoy supporters were just white males.


----------



## dimsum (18 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Maybe. Or he's just more likeable and relatable. I think gay immigrants should be able to get married, have abortions, and pray to Chuchulu. I don't consider myself far right and I would have voted for him.
> 
> I'm not exactly politically savvy but it almost seems like Pierre=farther right is one of those scare tactics.


Is it though? 

If he publicly supported them before the convoy published their "manifesto" then maybe he could have spun it as "I had no idea these folks would go this way".  But, he didn't.  

That, to me, and _especially_ that he hasn't come out and said anything to try and temper the outrage, is pretty telling.  




Jarnhamar said:


> How Pierre Poilievre is winning new support among young, diverse voters​
> It reminds me of how all the convoy supporters were just white males.


I live within a short walk of the convoy area back in Jan/Feb.  I worked from home and out of necessity (small space) I saw the folks roaming around from my "office".  You're right that it wasn't just white _males_, but I distinctly noticed a lack of people of colour in the 3 weeks that they were there.

My friends, living in other parts of downtown Ottawa, said the same.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> I live within a short walk of the convoy area back in Jan/Feb.  I worked from home and out of necessity (small space) I saw the folks roaming around from my "office".  You're right that it wasn't just white _males_, but I distinctly noticed a lack of people of colour in the 3 weeks that they were there.
> 
> My friends, living in other parts of downtown Ottawa, said the same.


I believe you.

It's possible people of colour weren't supportive of it in general. 

Possible it was intimidating for people of colour to join because of comments or behavior from those racist and bigot types, many who identify as right-wing.

It's also possible people of colour were afraid of being targeted and harassed by other left-learning people of colour who think POCs should be LPC/NDP and those who aren't are traitors. There were a number of stories from down south of republican POCs being harassed and targeted by their own people. I don't suspect we're impervious to that behavior up here.


----------



## Booter (18 Sep 2022)

O’toole was all roses until he had to pull the trigger on his policy stances for real for real.  Once the new guy has to answer to his new radicals about their demands for the country he ll find it less easy to assuage everyone.


----------



## dimsum (18 Sep 2022)

Booter said:


> O’toole was all roses until he had to pull the trigger on his policy stances for real for real.  Once the new guy has to answer to his new radicals about their demands for the country he ll find it less easy to assuage everyone.


Yup.

CBC Frontburner had an episode where they interviewed CPC members at the recent leadership convention.  More than one said words to the effect that they hope his messaging doesn't change when he forms govt.

How the hell are you going to do that when you're the PM?  A big part of his messaging is that he's angry, like the rest of the country, at the govt.  What happens when he becomes the govt?  People are going to still be angry, but at him.


----------



## McG (18 Sep 2022)

The UCP in Alberta have demonstrated what happens when you win party leadership by appealing to an outer fringe and then try to dial it back & govern more moderately.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Sep 2022)

I doubt conservatives or the CPC are moving right, certainly not by much.  On just two hot-button issues - SSM and abortion - I suppose there are more conservatives/CPC no longer opposed than there were 5, 10, or 20 years ago.  People who think one frame is moving right ought examine their own sociopolitical evolution over the past 5, 10, or 20 years to make an honest assessment of whether they are in a frame moving left.


----------



## brihard (18 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Is it though?
> 
> If he publicly supported them before the convoy published their "manifesto" then maybe he could have spun it as "I had no idea these folks would go this way".  But, he didn't.
> 
> ...


Can confirm. The convoy protests was super white. Not exclusively, but overwhelmingly. I thought I’d somehow stumbled into a fight at the Kingston yacht club.

Definitely not just male. Majority male, but plenty of women too. Purely from eyeballing it I’d say proportionately more men than women were arrested, but I’d also say that men were disproportionately the ones acting sufficiently aggressively as to stand out from the people around them and get arrested. But that’s also totally normal for pretty much any ‘big angry crowd’ protest with significant arrests.

A protest with active police action is an environment ripe for testosterone poisoning.


----------



## FSTO (19 Sep 2022)

The nut bars are gathering. 
I saw this at the courthouse. Is this the application to lay treason charges on the RCMP and PM?
Grey sweatpants. 🤮


----------



## FSTO (19 Sep 2022)

At the Indigenous Veterans Memorial.


----------



## brihard (19 Sep 2022)

FSTO said:


> At the Indigenous Veterans Memorial.
> View attachment 73643


Pat King is in court today, there’s the eviction hearing for the convoy affiliated TUPOC group is going on right now, and also I think yes the guy who wants to charge Trudeau for treason is there. So a pretty dumb day at Ottawa courthouse.


----------



## GK .Dundas (19 Sep 2022)

Listening to Pat King defending his actions while undoubtedly entertaining. One run's the risk of having ones IQ permanently lowered.


----------



## QV (21 Sep 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/random-border-testing-covid-19-1.6589450
		


So, the truckers were right? 

The only reason this is even happening is because PP.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/random-border-testing-covid-19-1.6589450
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes 100% and Election prep.   Like how they are moving to optional ArriveCan.  Just can't remove it can they......

Everyday Hanlon's razor, Hanlon's razor........


----------



## Quirky (21 Sep 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Just can't remove it can they......



Might as well keep it around for the next pandemic. Plus they probably paid a lot of money to have it programmed.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Sep 2022)

Quirky said:


> Might as well keep it around for the next pandemic. Plus they probably paid a lot of money to have it programmed.


That is my fear....

but if just for the next time....an App like that will become EOL in under a few years.  Would not work in no time flat if not maintained and that maintenance is very expensive.  

Plus in the end what was the purpose? It was mainly used to be disincentive to travel outside of the country.  I did see any real value to it.

When I throw my Hanlon's Razor out the window I see a very good reason for its existence and the government want to keep it.  I am trying not to go down that path.


----------



## Navy_Pete (22 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/random-border-testing-covid-19-1.6589450
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or because things have changed in the 7 odd months and it makes sense to scale it back now? 

If anything, they may have delayed scaling it back longer because they didn't want to be seen to be pandering to the convoy types, particularly the really vocal crazy ones calling for an overthrow of the elected government.

But sure, create a causal link with zero evidence, that doesn't sound like an echo chamber output.


----------



## brihard (22 Sep 2022)

Objectively it makes sense to keep ArriveCan going as a way to digitally fill customs declaration cards. A family member of mine returned to Canada not long ago and, with his app working properly, found clearing customs an absolute breeze. Switching from the little cardboard slips you fill out to an app simply makes sense in this day and age. Keep the hard copy as an option for those who can’t use an app, but don’t discard a reasonable and useful innovation because it comes with some baggage for some people.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Objectively it makes sense to keep ArriveCan going as a way to digitally fill customs declaration cards. A family member of mine returned to Canada not long ago and, with his app working properly, found clearing customs an absolute breeze. Switching from the little cardboard slips you fill out to an app simply makes sense in this day and age. Keep the hard copy as an option for those who can’t use an app, but don’t discard a reasonable and useful innovation because it comes with some baggage for some people.


This type of system was already in place, it was called Nexus 😉


----------



## suffolkowner (22 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> This type of system was already in place, it was called Nexus 😉


Yeah but isn't Nexus on the way out? Doesn't seem like there is a lot of support for it these days. I think you pretty much have to go down to the states for your clearance now(?). The Americans have an alternative that includes other countries so Nexus isnt as valuable to non Canadians


----------



## brihard (22 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> This type of system was already in place, it was called Nexus 😉


Sure, for those who are eligible.


----------



## dimsum (22 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> This type of system was already in place, it was called Nexus 😉


Wasn't Nexus just for Can-US travel?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Sure, for those who are eligible.


Very true and it also cost money.  I liked it, pay money and give the US Govt a copy of your Fingerprints and the GoC an Iris Scan for a chance to skip the BS lines at the airports 😁


----------



## Quirky (22 Sep 2022)

The random testing for full vaccinated is the stupid thing, not the app.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Wasn't Nexus just for Can-US travel?


You could also use it at the airport to skip all the nonsense.  

I loved my Nexus Card.  Well worth the trouble of getting one.


----------



## Lumber (22 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You could also use it at the airport to skip all the nonsense.
> 
> I loved my Nexus Card.  Well worth the trouble of getting one.


Loved? Did you stop paying for when you released because of less travel?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Loved? Did you stop paying for when you released because of less travel?


Didn't bother renewing during COVID.  I won't be regularly crossing the border now unless it's for work.


----------



## QV (23 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Or because things have changed in the 7 odd months and it makes sense to scale it back now?
> 
> If anything, they may have delayed scaling it back longer because they didn't want to be seen to be pandering to the convoy types, particularly the really vocal crazy ones calling for an overthrow of the elected government.
> 
> But sure, create a causal link with zero evidence, that doesn't sound like an echo chamber output.


I’m sure it was all worth freezing bank accounts over.


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Sep 2022)

Ardently defend ArriveCan and vax mandates until day of CPC leadership election.
Leader elected in landslide who has continuously attacked unscientific mandates
Government suddenly finds new science, based on data people have known for a year, that vax hasn't stopped transmission since Delta variant was prevalent
Government known for watching polls and making vaccines a wedge issue declares it no longer supports mandates

Smart political science folks see the connection, partisans immediately try to dismiss it.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Sep 2022)

Except the decision to start dropping vaccine mandates  was done in June for domestic travel, and then the international travel followed on a few months later. Almost like it was a planned phased approach unrelated to internal CPC politics.


----------



## dimsum (23 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Except the decision to start dropping vaccine mandates  was done in June for domestic travel, and then the international travel followed on a few months later. Almost like it was a planned phased approach unrelated to internal CPC politics.



Correlation vs causation and all that...


----------



## QV (23 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Except the decision to start dropping vaccine mandates  was done in June for domestic travel, and then the international travel followed on a few months later. Almost like it was a planned phased approach unrelated to internal CPC politics.


If this was a planned phased approach a transparent and good government would have informed the country with detailed timelines right about the time the truckers were making a stink... perhaps to take the wind out of their sails and keep everyone in the loop... No, we got "racists" instead. 

Based on everything I've seen since 2015, I'd place my money on Puckchaser's post. This PM, entire cabinet, and MPs in support of,  can't be bounced soon enough or hard enough.


----------



## Lumber (23 Sep 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Ardently defend ArriveCan and vax mandates until day of CPC leadership election.
> Leader elected in landslide who has continuously attacked unscientific mandates
> Government suddenly finds new science, based on data people have known for a year, that vax hasn't stopped transmission since Delta variant was prevalent
> Government known for watching polls and making vaccines a wedge issue declares it no longer supports mandates
> ...


This is the problem with political discourse.

You are both conducting a critical analysis of recent government decisions. 

But because @Navy_Pete's conclusion differs from yours, you claim he's being partisan. 

You're so sure that your conclusion is right, that the only way someone could have a different conclusion is if they are being partisan.


----------



## Lumber (23 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> If this was a planned phased approach a transparent and good government would have informed the country with detailed timelines right about the time the truckers were making a stink... perhaps to take the wind out of their sails and keep everyone in the loop... No, we got "racists" instead.
> 
> Based on everything I've seen since 2015, I'd place my money on Puckchaser's post. This PM, entire cabinet, and MPs in support of,  can't be bounced soon enough or hard enough.


Just so I understand clearly, you guys are insinuating that the LPC had information that some of these mandates were no longer needed, and they were prepared to retract them, but decided to delay retracting them until after PP became opposition leader, so that the LPC could take a bit of wind out of his sails from the get go?


----------



## dimsum (23 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> If this was a planned phased approach a transparent and good government would have informed the country with detailed timelines right about the time the truckers were making a stink... perhaps to take the wind out of their sails and keep everyone in the loop... No, we got "racists" instead.
> 
> Based on everything I've seen since 2015, I'd place my money on Puckchaser's post. This PM, entire cabinet, and MPs in support of,  can't be bounced soon enough or hard enough.


No one, anywhere, had detailed timelines of anything at the time.  

Bear in mind that the original protest (before everyone else's other grievances came in) was the Canadian ban on non-vaccinated Canadian truckers returning from the US.  A ban, by the way, that was also an American policy.  So Canadian truckers wouldn't even be able to get into the US in the first place.

At that time, the US didn't say when they would be dropping that ban.  How is the Cdn govt supposed to inform the country about a ban that another govt instituted, and didn't tell the Cdn govt its timelines?


----------



## FSTO (23 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> No one, anywhere, had detailed timelines of anything at the time.
> 
> Bear in mind that the original protest (before everyone else's other grievances came in) was the Canadian ban on non-vaccinated Canadian truckers returning from the US.  A ban, by the way, that was also an American policy.  So Canadian truckers wouldn't even be able to get into the US in the first place.
> 
> At that time, the US didn't say when they would be dropping that ban.  How is the Cdn govt supposed to inform the country about a ban that another govt instituted, and didn't tell the Cdn govt its timelines?


I was in western Manitoba when the convoy rolled through. A vast majority of the supporters on the side of the TCH were people just fed up with the overall policy direction of the government and not directed at specific vaccine mandates or lockdowns. They saw this as an easy and safe way to show their displeasure at Ottawa. I’ve seen this sort of response time and time again from the west and it usually fizzles out by the time it reaches Thunder Bay. I think the government was counting on that as well but for whatever reason it maintained its strength all the way to Wellington St. 
I’m pretty tuned into the attitudes of most rural people in the west and they were initially happy Ottawa got a bit of discomfort but that support dried up after day 3 of the occupation. 
But if the Libs and NDP want to campaign on the Occupation out in the west, they’re not going to find much traction. Not that they had a hope in hell in any case.


----------



## Weinie (23 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> No one, anywhere, had detailed timelines of anything at the time.
> 
> Bear in mind that the original protest (before everyone else's other grievances came in) was the Canadian ban on non-vaccinated Canadian truckers returning from the US.  A ban, by the way, that was also an American policy.  So Canadian truckers wouldn't even be able to get into the US in the first place.
> 
> At that time, the US didn't say when they would be dropping that ban.  How is the Cdn govt supposed to inform the country about a ban that another govt instituted, and didn't tell the Cdn govt its timelines?


No matter how it was painted, the Freedom Convoy was a pointed effort at Western displeasure at the Canadian government. Full stop. And I agree. When an election is decided when they reach Toronto, what can people out West do? The fact that the current government enacted the EMA is shameful, when people feel disenfranchised.


----------



## GK .Dundas (23 Sep 2022)

I really could have done without the posturing by both sides.
And I really could have done without the a**wipe who told me that by handing out masks at the hospital.  He'd see to it that I would be one of the first up against the wall....it was icy and he fell.


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> No matter how it was painted, the Freedom Convoy was a pointed effort at Western displeasure at the Canadian government. Full stop. And I agree. When an election is decided when they reach Toronto, what can people out West do? The fact that the current government enacted the EMA is shameful, when people feel disenfranchised.



Well, on the West Coast we...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, on the West Coast we...


When you're not all stabbing each other...


----------



## GK .Dundas (23 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> I really could have done without the posturing by both sides.
> And I really could have done without the a**wipe who told me that by handing out masks at the hospital.  He'd see to it that I would be one of the first up against the wall....it was icy and he fell.


Just about every protest movement seems to attract morons. This one just seemed to attract more then the usual number.And most of them also were convinced that they were really  big wheels in the organization .
The funny part is he really  actually did fall . And maybe it says something bad about me but it did bring a smile to my face.


----------



## dimsum (23 Sep 2022)

FSTO said:


> but that support dried up after day 3 of the occupation.


Like much of the country when folks started noticing that it became a public bender with DJs rather than a protest.


----------



## mariomike (23 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> And I really could have done without the a**wipe who told me that by handing out masks at the hospital.  He'd see to it that I would be one of the first up against the wall....it was icy and he fell.



Some schadenfreude in that last bit. 

I don't think you folks who worked to keep the rest of us safe from this invisible enemy will ever get the credit you deserve. They say no good deed goes unpunished. 



brihard said:


> Can confirm. The convoy protests was super white.



Interesting observation from the front-line.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (23 Sep 2022)

It was kind of funny here in the Ottawa Valley watching it come thru and the people who got involved and were pro convoy.

Saw cars from the area, with signs and flashing lights. Marked as Convoy control cars. Plywood signs where the 17 became the 417 outside Arnprior. 

We still have the cars and trucks in the Valley with Flags, and the convoy supporting signs and marked as convoy control chase cars. Most of these cars were small rice burners,  guys with big pick up trucks that were modified with straight pipes, mostly young people who needed to feel they belonged to something bigger then them. 

 Telling the convoy to send it large and take all lanes up. Area farmer had a huge field cleared of snow and installed a huge fire pit and did a BBQ along the road. 
But I also saw the area businesses that did not want to support them even thou they were in the trucking world of business. Fuel up and please leave, they did not want to painted as a supporter and lose local business. 

The traffic did damage to roads because they were never designed for that traffic load.

Watched the convoy come from the West drive by my office window ( i stayed at work that  night worried i might get home or back to work in the morning with the traffic delays). Hitting Ottawa as rush hour Ottawa begins ( already slow traffic on 3 lanes of the Queensway each way).


This convoy only punished people who lived in Ottawa, did not change anything, the costs of this got added to the covid bill. 

No matter the outcome it was going to be negative and have negative effects on their fellow Canadians.

But when it comes down to it, they have to investigate the money flow,  where did it come from, where did it go, how did it get used, where did the remaining funds not used get put, what charity they were support with it, did that charity want the ties to the convoy, was the convoy organizers pocketing cash or skimming funds off to another group etc. This needs to be addressed and made public, do not need a list of donors, but need to show where it went.

I always figured this group could of been a political power fund raising group. They could of used the power behind their group to back various candidates for almost any election and maybe change the face of government. But they went this direction instead.


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## Weinie (23 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Can confirm.* The convoy protests was super white. Not exclusively, but overwhelmingly. *I thought I’d somehow stumbled into a fight at the Kingston yacht club.
> 
> Definitely not just male. Majority male, but plenty of women too. Purely from eyeballing it I’d say proportionately more men than women were arrested, but I’d also say that men were disproportionately the ones acting sufficiently aggressively as to stand out from the people around them and get arrested. But that’s also totally normal for pretty much any ‘big angry crowd’ protest with significant arrests.
> 
> A protest with active police action is an environment ripe for testosterone poisoning.


Because very few Nigerian, Nicaraguan, or Indian immigrants move to Saskatchewan, or Alberta, I'm not surprised that the protest was super white. The protest was about government interference, not about the colour of your skin.


----------



## Weinie (23 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> This is the problem with political discourse.
> 
> You are both conducting a critical analysis of recent government decisions.
> 
> ...


Unless *you *are being partisan


----------



## dimsum (23 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Because very few Nigerian, Nicaraguan, or Indian immigrants move to Saskatchewan, or Alberta, I'm not surprised that the protest was super white. The protest was about government interference, not about the colour of your skin.


I won't speak to the ones in SK or AB, but the Ottawa one was super white.


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## Weinie (23 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> I won't speak to the ones in SK or AB, but the Ottawa one was super white.


Ummmmmmm, most of the protesters were from the West


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## Lumber (23 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Ummmmmmm, most of the protesters were from the West


Are you referring to the core group of a couple hundred trucker protestors, or the larger group of 10k+ at its peak? Either way, what's your source on that? My gut says your wrong, but I can't back it up; I can't actually find data either way as to the origin of the protestors (either the core or the larger group), other than individuals.


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## Remius (23 Sep 2022)

Lots of Quebec “truckers”.

Motorcycle groups from all over 

Not sure what the breakdown on where people were from.

The convoy claims it was from all over Canada.  Unless they were exaggerating?


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## PuckChaser (23 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> This is the problem with political discourse.
> 
> You are both conducting a critical analysis of recent government decisions.
> 
> ...


I'm getting a big white privilege vibe from this post.


----------



## Lumber (23 Sep 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I'm getting a big white privilege vibe from this post.


Am I so upsetting you in the other thread that you have to drag it into this one? When I mentioned a vibe I was feeling, it was no more than an explanation directly to MJP as to how I was feeling. I didn't use it as a response or retort to anyone else in particular's message, unlike what you just did.

But, fine, I'll bite, what else am I suppose to do while I wait for Fiona? I am white, and by many standards, very privileged, so, you're probably right, my statement is likely coloured by my experience and biased toward my cis-white upper-middle-class experience. Tell me @PuckChaser, can you expand upon this and tell me how my statement above lacks objectivity? What is the more _objectively true _conclusion that I should have come to?


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## Weinie (23 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Are you referring to the core group of a couple hundred trucker protestors, or the larger group of 10k+ at its peak? Either way, what's your source on that? My gut says your wrong, but I can't back it up; I can't actually find data either way as to the origin of the protestors (either the core or the larger group), other than individuals.


Well then maybe you should trust your gut. I am going by the media posts, and who was arrested.


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## brihard (23 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Ummmmmmm, most of the protesters were from the West


Tough to gauge with certainty, but I don’t believe this to be accurate. Certainly a hard core of the initial protest came in from out west and  formed a disproportionate part of the vehicles that actually parked and jammed up Wellington and a few nearby streets. The crowd swelled, particularly on weekends, from locals or people within a few hours of Ottawa- those who could travel here same day, and in some cases were just here for the weekends. There were quite a few Ontario or Quebec registered vehicles, and there were many more protesters than vehicles. The convoy from out west ultimately formed a core but very fractional portion of the protest.  A bunch of them melted away after the first week, and by the time downtown was retaken by police, I’d say most of the crowd were from within a day’s drive of Ottawa. Most of the convoy vehicles were gone by the timeWellington was retaken on the Saturday. Certainly, the most dedicated core (many of whom were arrested) did come from that key group from out west, and the ones who ‘stuck it out’. They just weren’t the majority.

In any case, I offered my demographic observation only because others seemed curious about it. It was not, to my eye, a racially diverse crowd. I’m not gonna try to attribute any real meaning to that.


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## Lumber (23 Sep 2022)

Weinie said:


> Well then maybe you should trust your gut. I am going by the media posts, and who was arrested.


Well that's what I mean. I'm not denying that the key players and the core group of truckers were from the western provinces. However, you said "most of the protesters were from the West", and I'm just curious as to :
1. whether you're referring to the core group of around 250 protestors who were mainly truckers and their supporters and stayed there the longest, or the larger group of protestors that peaked at anywhere from 5k to 18k; and
b. what you are basing this assertion on ("most of the protesters being from the west").


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## Brad Sallows (23 Sep 2022)

[notruescotsman]They were "west" in spirit.[/notruescotsman]


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## FormerHorseGuard (23 Sep 2022)

The convoy claims it was from all over Canada. Unless they were exaggerating?

That is an understatement.  Facebook posts were claiming 50 000 to 250 000 truck involved in the convoy

Giving each truck in the convoy 70 feet long , truck and trailer ( smaller trailers)  
Taking half that many trucks  25 000 x 70 feet of truck 1 750 000 feet.  If bumper to bumper, general rule of safety says that is not safe driving so let me give them 25 feet between trucks  25 000 x 25 feet of safety area another 625 000 feet of space taken up on the highway. 

Gives roughly 2 375 000 feet of highway taken up by truckers.
1 mile = 5280 feet 
That would mean the convoy with 25 000 truck in it would be around 449 miles long. If my math is right. 
In Ontario that convoy of trucks would be stretched from the Metcalfe Street exit off the 417 ( the main exit to Parliament Hill) to almost Sault Ste. Marie Ontario. 

The numbers the convoy group were giving as facts were so far off, it is unbelievable. 
Cleaning the streets, and the War Memorial as acts of kindness, how about the trash they left on the streets? 

But it is over and done with but the lasting effects will be here with us as Canadians forever.

The Parliament section is under a higher level of security. Talk of the streets around it being blocked to traffic just like they do in the US around the Whitehouse area.

This protest was start to the end of the National Front Lawn.  Limited access will slowly take over and we as Canadians will over be able to look over a fence to see the Historical Buildings that make up Parliament Hill.


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## Edward Campbell (23 Sep 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> The convoy claims it was from all over Canada. Unless they were exaggerating?
> 
> That is an understatement.  Facebook posts were claiming 50 000 to 250 000 truck involved in the convoy
> 
> ...



This has been in and out of various plans for decades. Wellington Street should be a ceremonial mall from (about) Bank Street (the West end of Parliament Hill) to the National War Memorial (the East end). Access can be managed by powered bollards - I'm pretty sure they can be strong enough.

One of the problems is that neither the national nor the local government has ever had the will to make the "precincts of parliament" work as a concept, much less in practical terms. _I think_ the redevelopment of Block 2 may provide the impetus, but I've been wrong before ...


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## GK .Dundas (23 Sep 2022)

Not sure about the Ottawa bunch but here in Winnipeg the ones who were constantly driving around the legislature and through downtown.
An aweful lot of them all seemed to be driving around in 4x4 pickups and a lot seemed to have a pair of chromed umm testicles. 
They were ......an interesting bunch.


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## dimsum (23 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Not sure about the Ottawa bunch but here in Winnipeg the ones who were constantly driving around the legislature and through downtown.
> An aweful lot of them all seemed to be driving around in 4x4 pickups and a lot seemed to have a pair of chromed umm testicles.
> They were ......an interesting bunch.


There were definitely more pickups and cars than actual 18-wheelers.

I wonder how those folks' hearing is going right now?  There's a video somewhere of someone with a decibel-meter and on Wellington it was 100dB sustained, or standing next to a lawnmower.


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## Navy_Pete (23 Sep 2022)

Looking forward to see what kind of nonsense counter TUPOC comes up with now, but looks like they are going to be evicted and owe the owner $58k.


Judge grants order allowing landlords to evict TUPC from St. Brigid's​Social Sharing​
 
Controversial group also has to pay property owners $58K in costs​
Dan Taekema  · CBC News  · Posted: Sep 23, 2022 1:41 PM ET | Last Updated: 44 minutes ago






A Superior Court Justice has granted an application for the owners of St. Brigid's to remove The United People of Canada (TUPC) from the property. (Pierre-Paul Couture/CBC)
A Superior Court Justice has granted an application for the owners of St. Brigid's in Ottawa's Lowertown area to evict The United People of Canada (TUPC), a group with ties to the Freedom Convoy.
Justice Sally Gomery's decision, released Friday, also orders the controversial group to pay $58,000 in costs to the property owners within 30 days.

{full story at link}
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/tupc-st-brigid-s-eviction-1.6593197


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## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> [notruescotsman]They were "west" in spirit.[/notruescotsman]



Angus Reid's results suggests that the Western 'spirit' can be defined mainly as 'anger' ...










						What unites & defines the “West”? In a complicated confederation, less than one might think - Angus Reid Institute
					

A region often divided finds itself united by the belief that the federal government treats it unfairly January 30, 2019 – The concept of “Western Canada” may be one born




					angusreid.org


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Sep 2022)

Anger is just where dissatisfaction goes when left unresolved long enough.


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## Edward Campbell (30 Sep 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> This has been in and out of various plans for decades. Wellington Street should be a ceremonial mall from (about) Bank Street (the West end of Parliament Hill) to the National War Memorial (the East end). Access can be managed by powered bollards - I'm pretty sure they can be strong enough.
> 
> One of the problems is that neither the national nor the local government has ever had the will to make the "precincts of parliament" work as a concept, much less in practical terms. _I think_ the redevelopment of Block 2 may provide the impetus, but I've been wrong before ...


More on this ... this time in the "who does what" realm and inter-agency communication.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Sep 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Anger is just where dissatisfaction goes when left unresolved long enough.



The Alberta Sovereignty Act enters the chat Danielle Smith releases overview of proposed Alberta sovereignty act


----------



## torg003 (30 Sep 2022)

Provinces don't have the right to declare themselves sovereign.  Has to be negotiated with the Federal gov't and then put to a national vote to change the constitution.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> Provinces don't have the right to declare themselves sovereign.  Has to be negotiated with the Federal gov't and then put to a national vote to change the constitution.


The Red River Rebellion has entered the chat...


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## Kat Stevens (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> Provinces don't have the right to declare themselves sovereign.  Has to be negotiated with the Federal gov't and then put to a national vote to change the constitution.


When did the rest of Canada get a vote in all those Quebec separatist referendums?  I think we should have got to vote on whether or not we want to keep them.


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## RedFive (10 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> When did the rest of Canada get a vote in all those Quebec separatist referendums?  I think we should have got to vote on whether or not we want to keep them.


I think we might see Western Canada would be quick to put on the biggest boot they can find and wind up, given the chance.


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## torg003 (10 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> When did the rest of Canada get a vote in all those Quebec separatist referendums?  I think we should have got to vote on whether or not we want to keep them.


Just because a province holds a vote on something, doesn't make it legally binding, especially if it's not on something within their provincial powers.  Provincial gov'ts need to do their jobs that they are constitutionally responsible for and stop trying to get more powers from the Federal gov't.
BTW. Canada is a sovereign nation with federated divisions (provinces).  These divisions aren't sovereign, they are part of a sovereign nation. Provinces need to focus on their own responsibilities and fuck off with all the sovereignty BS.  
I am Canadian.  Even though I was born and live in Alberta, I've lived in other provinces as well.  Yes, there are regional differences, but there are also many things that bind us together and make us Canadian.  We need to work together as a country instead of trying to amplify any regional differences for political gain.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> Just because a province holds a vote on something, doesn't make it legally binding, especially if it's not on something within their provincial powers.  Provincial gov'ts need to do their jobs that they are constitutionally responsible for and stop trying to get more powers from the Federal gov't.
> BTW. Canada is a sovereign nation with federated divisions (provinces).  These divisions aren't sovereign, they are part of a sovereign nation. Provinces need to focus on their own responsibilities and fuck off with all the sovereignty BS.
> I am Canadian.  Even though I was born and live in Alberta, I've lived in other provinces as well.  Yes, there are regional differences, but there are also many things that bind us together and make us Canadian.  We need to work together as a country instead of trying to amplify any regional differences for political gain.


You're preaching to the converted here, the ones that need conversion generally live east of the Mb/Ont border.


----------



## torg003 (10 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You're preaching to the converted here, the ones that need conversion generally live east of the Mb/Ont border.


OK, but I wouldn't be that general.  I think you really mean Central Canada (ie - Ontario and Quebec).  I've lived in the Atlantic region, and they aren't part of the problem.  They're in kind of the same boat (no pun intended) as the west.
One of the problems with the Federal system is that the sub-divisions are very disproportional (in both size and population), but it isn't likely that smaller provinces will agree to amalgamate, or large ones to break up into medium sized ones.  Even if there was agreement, these would require constitutional change (with a national vote), so unlikely to actually happen.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> They're in kind of the same boat (no pun intended) as the west.


Yeah, some people don’t realize how much they put into Confederation for how little they get back…..


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You're preaching to the converted here, the ones that need conversion generally live east of the Mb/Ont border.


Or on the left, in more ways than directionally, side of the Rockies.


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> OK, but I wouldn't be that general.  I think you really mean Central Canada (ie - Ontario and Quebec).  I've lived in the Atlantic region, and they aren't part of the problem.  They're in kind of the same boat (no pun intended) as the west.
> One of the problems with the Federal system is that the sub-divisions are very disproportional (in both size and population), but it isn't likely that smaller provinces will agree to amalgamate, or large ones to break up into medium sized ones.  Even if there was agreement, these would require constitutional change (with a national vote), so unlikely to actually happen.


Then why do they insist in overwhelmingly voting for the Red Menace (TM) time and again?


----------



## torg003 (10 Oct 2022)

Red Menace?  I don't care for partisan politics.  One party isn't any better or worse than any of the others, IMO.  Those that get into power usually do similar things (such as not listening to average Canadians, pandering to party members, not fulfilling all election promises if not politically necessary, etc.).


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## Remius (10 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The Alberta Sovereignty Act enters the chat Danielle Smith releases overview of proposed Alberta sovereignty act


And now she’s walking some of her tough talk back.  Maybe she decided to actually read the Canada User manual.






						Sovereignty Act rollback: Incoming Alberta premier would follow rule of law on bill |  National Newswatch
					

National Newswatch: Canada's most comprehensive site for political news and views. Make it a daily habit.




					www.nationalnewswatch.com


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## Kat Stevens (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> Red Menace?  I don't care for partisan politics.  One party isn't any better or worse than any of the others, IMO.  Those that get into power usually do similar things (such as not listening to average Canadians, pandering to party members, not fulfilling all election promises if not politically necessary, etc.).


You need to get a sense of humour, you'll live longer.


----------



## QV (10 Oct 2022)

torg003 said:


> Red Menace?  I don't care for partisan politics.  One party isn't any better or worse than any of the others, IMO.  Those that get into power usually do similar things (such as not listening to average Canadians, pandering to party members, not fulfilling all election promises if not politically necessary, etc.).


We’ve never seen a PM like this before. No, they aren’t all the same.


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## QV (10 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> And now she’s walking some of her tough talk back.  Maybe she decided to actually read the Canada User manual.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That article is bullshit. The ASA has always intended to respect SCC decisions.


----------



## Remius (10 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> That article is bullshit. The ASA has always intended to respect SCC decisions.


So she never said this:  "If a court stays or ultimately deems that the actions undertaken by the province under a specific Alberta sovereignty act special motion is unconstitutional, then the government and Legislature will have to review the special motion actions in question and make a decision as to whether or not to amend, end or continue with them, understanding the legal implications such a decision could cause,"


Or what her campaign chair said , "The idea is that it doesn't matter what the Supreme Court or the federal government says about it, if it attacks Albertans, the interest of Albertans, and it attacks our jurisdictional rights, we simply won't enforce it with any provincial agency."

Seems pretty cut and dry about what her intentions were in regards to the SCC.

I’m glad she’s walking back the nonesense she was saying before.


----------



## brihard (10 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> So she never said this:  "If a court stays or ultimately deems that the actions undertaken by the province under a specific Alberta sovereignty act special motion is unconstitutional, then the government and Legislature will have to review the special motion actions in question and make a decision as to whether or not to amend, end or continue with them, understanding the legal implications such a decision could cause,"
> 
> Seems pretty cut and dry about what her intentions were in regards to the SCC.
> 
> I’m glad she’s walking back the nonesense she was saying before.


This. She said what she said. Now she gets to act like she didn’t _really_ mean it, but she’ll do so by ignoring the facts of some of what she said in the first place. More likely she got read the riot act and has come to realize that the rule of law includes respecting the decisions of the judiciary and that that’s part of what you have to accept to play at politics in any meaningful forum.


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## Kilted (11 Oct 2022)

CityNews
					






					toronto.citynews.ca
				




This made me think of the convoy when I read it.


----------



## brihard (11 Oct 2022)

Kilted said:


> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh good, cause that’s how I want to go out. Murder-death-killed at an intersection by a wrathful, sentient cube van loaded with President’s Choice frozen butternut squash.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (11 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Oh good, cause that’s how I want to go out. Murder-death-killed at an intersection by a wrathful, sentient cube van loaded with President’s Choice frozen butternut squash.


A load of frozen perogies, better?


----------



## dapaterson (11 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> A load of frozen perogies, better?


Good for Saskatchewan votes, at least...


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Oh good, cause that’s how I want to go out. Murder-death-killed at an intersection by a wrathful, sentient cube van loaded with President’s Choice frozen butternut squash.



Im pretty sure there is a Stephen King Book/Movie about that AC/DC did the sound track


----------



## Lumber (11 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> You need to get a sense of humour, you'll live longer.


@KAT, I don't know you, but I'm starting to, and what I see you frequently doing of late is jumping into a heated debates and throwing in what _I think_ you are trying to convey as sarcasm/humour, but you do it so deadpan that it's coming off as snide, not convivial.


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> @KAT, I don't know you, but I'm starting to, and what I see you frequently doing of late is jumping into a heated debates and throwing in what _I think_ you are trying to convey as sarcasm/humour, but you do it so deadpan that it's coming off as snide, not convivial.


It's a curse.


----------



## dimsum (11 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Oh good, cause that’s how I want to go out. Murder-death-killed at an intersection by a wrathful, sentient cube van loaded with President’s Choice frozen butternut squash.


"Today, @brihard was tragically killed by 10 tons of Memories of Kobe teriyaki sauce..."


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Im pretty sure there is a Stephen King Book/Movie about that AC/DC did the sound track


Maximum Overdrive.  Who made Who by AC/DC.  Great movie and great song.


----------



## Halifax Tar (11 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Maximum Overdrive.  Who made Who by AC/DC.  Great movie and great song.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Good for Saskatchewan votes, at least...


Excuse me but Manitoba lives and runs on the perogy. Don't forget about them.

William Lyon Mckenzie King was PM throughout WW2 - he got policy advice from his mother - who was dead.


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Excuse me but Manitoba lives and runs on the perogy. Don't forget about them.
> 
> _William Lyon Mckenzie King was PM throughout WW2 - he got policy advice from his mother - who was dead._



And her advice was probably better then what he got from a few of his ministers and some (not all, but more than just one) of his service chiefs.


----------



## dimsum (11 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> And her advice was probably better then what he got from a few of his ministers and some (not all, but more than just one) of his service chiefs.


----------



## GK .Dundas (11 Oct 2022)

Hate to say it but it's closer to the truth then I want to think about.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Oct 2022)

WAC Bennett for all intents and purposes told the feds to piss off. Our files from that time were full of stuff about lack of cooperation and the difficultly of getting anything done federally. I ended up writing a report on the events of the WAC Bennett dam and Shrum Generating station regarding the application of Federal law to the project and how the Province ignored those requirements and it was not until about 2010ish that we got BC Hydro to fulfil the requirements under the Navigable Waters Protection Act for a dam built in 1968.
There are lots of ways for a Province to make life difficult for the Feds, even in 1998 cooperation between the Feds and the Albertan Provincial authorities was minimal and it reduced the effectiveness greatly of Federal resources in the Province.


----------



## FSTO (11 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Excuse me but Manitoba lives and runs on the perogy. *Don't forget about them.*


Manitoba is so fly over country that fly over country flies over it!!


----------



## lenaitch (11 Oct 2022)

Kilted said:


> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A slight programming change and they all end up on Wellington.  I wonder if the software controls the horn.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Oct 2022)

This should provide wonderful tragi-comic relief over the next few months 

Convoy leaders, PM expected to testify at inquiry into use of Emergencies Act​Public inquiry will examine federal government's decision to grant police emergency powers​
The public inquiry into the federal government's unprecedented use of the Emergencies Act during what organizers called "Freedom Convoy" protests last winter begins on Thursday, and dozens of witnesses, including Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and high profile convoy organizers, are expected to testify.

The Liberal government invoked the Emergencies Act on Feb. 14, granting police extraordinary temporary powers to clear people out of downtown Ottawa and allowing banks to freeze the accounts of some of those involved.

The decision came after nearly three weeks of protesters whose trucks clogged downtown Ottawa streets and also set up blockades at several border crossings.

Protesters, who had raised millions of dollars through online crowdfunding sites, were calling for an end to the federal government's COVID-19 vaccine mandates, and in some cases an end to the Trudeau government.

Protesters had set up a bouncy castle, a hot tub and dozens of structures on the streets surrounding Parliament Hill by mid-February, while people in big rigs kept their trucks running and blared their horns day and night until a court injunction lessened the noise. Protesters pledged to stay.

The noise and disruption led to mounting public frustration from people living nearby, and Ottawa police and city officials described a state of "lawlessness" as they struggled to maintain order.

Trudeau cited "serious challenges to law enforcement's ability to effectively enforce the law" when he announced plans to invoke the act for the first time since it became law in 1988.

"This is about keeping Canadians safe, protecting people's jobs and restoring confidence in our institutions," he said at the time.

The Emergencies Act requires that a public inquiry be called to examine the government's decision-making any time it is invoked.

The Public Order Emergency Commission and Ontario Appeal Court Justice Paul Rouleau, who is the lead commissioner, will assess the basis for the government's decision and the appropriateness and effectiveness of the measures taken to deal with the blockades. They will also review whether there should be any changes to the Emergencies Act itself.

Since it was established on April 25, the commission has been collecting documents and interviewing dozens of people, including central figures in the "Freedom Convoy" such as Tamara Lich, Chris Barber, Pat King and James Bauder — all facing criminal charges for their roles.

A draft list of potential witnesses at the hearings includes outgoing Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson and senior city officials, members of the Ottawa 
Police Services Board and David Vigneault, director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Peter Sloly, who resigned as Ottawa police chief during the convoy, and his replacement, interim police chief Steve Bell, are also expected to testify. 

So are Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland and Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino.

Mendicino told reporters last week the Emergencies Act was necessary to restore order across the country, including on Wellington Street "where for three weeks, the situation was virtually ungovernable."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inquiry-convoy-emergencies-act-1.6612084


----------



## brihard (12 Oct 2022)

Quite the witness list. This may be a spectacle.


----------



## RangerRay (12 Oct 2022)

The government better bring receipts to this. And “because the City of Ottawa couldn’t do its job” won’t cut it.


----------



## Ostrozac (12 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The government better bring receipts to this. And “because the City of Ottawa couldn’t do its job” won’t cut it.


That’s what everybody’s been dancing around, isn’t it? The incompetence of the City of Ottawa (specifically probably the Mayor and definitely the OPS Police Chief) and a Province of Ontario perfectly willing to let the situation play out as they had the city to blame and weren’t going to pay a political price.

Constitutionally, do the Feds have a right (or a duty) to step in as a force of last resort? Or, within their areas of jurisdiction, do the provinces have the right to fail? Personally, I lean towards the latter option — let them fail — but I can see the ’peace/order/good government’ other side of the argument.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (12 Oct 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> That’s what everybody’s been dancing around, isn’t it? The incompetence of the City of Ottawa (specifically probably the Mayor and definitely the OPS Police Chief) and a Province of Ontario perfectly willing to let the situation play out as they had the city to blame and weren’t going to pay a political price.
> 
> Constitutionally, do the Feds have a right (or a duty) to step in as a force of last resort? Or, within their areas of jurisdiction, do the provinces have the right to fail? Personally, I lean towards the latter option — let them fail — but I can see the ’peace/order/good government’ other side of the argument.


My argument is that act should be reserved for when the provinces have no powers left to their discretion or it is absolutely 1000% necessary and there is no alternative option. Ontario still had the ability to do more within the legal framework (including requesting military support if so desired), they just chose not to. There was no pressing time requirement, if they had waited a week, or a month, it likely would have made no more of a difference than invoking the act that day. 

What the Feds should have done is made a list of things the province had available as options and sent a copy of that list to the province as well as the media. Put the ball back in Ford's park and made him make a decision.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Oct 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> My argument is that act should be reserved for when the provinces have no powers left to their discretion or it is absolutely 1000% necessary and there is no alternative option. Ontario still had the ability to do more within the legal framework (including requesting military support if so desired), they just chose not to. There was no pressing time requirement, if they had waited a week, or a month, it likely would have made no more of a difference than invoking the act that day.
> 
> What the Feds should have done is made a list of things the province had available as options and sent a copy of that list to the province as well as the media. Put the ball back in Ford's park and made him make a decision.


The province already proved they had the necessary tools to end the protests when they moved on the Windsor blockades.  The use of the Emergencies Act was completely unnecessary.


----------



## Rifleman62 (12 Oct 2022)

> Convoy leaders, PM expected to _testilie_ at inquiry into use of Emergencies Act​


----------



## lenaitch (12 Oct 2022)

Oh goody, a public inquiry.  Everybody lawyered up on the taxpayer's dime.  Will the Commissioners' findings clearly conclude that the invocation of the Act was or was not necessary?  I will be very surprised, but several million for the show.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> The province already proved they had the necessary tools to end the protests when they moved on the Windsor blockades.  The use of the Emergencies Act was completely unnecessary.


It's funny what can happen when you ask.  Windsor PS asked for help and had an operation plan what it was going to do with said help.  Ottawa did not in the initial stages.  Other police services (in particular the OPP which the only non-federal service that is mandated to provide assistance on Ontario) need to have the confidence that their very expensive resources will be utilized appropriately and safely.  The Toronto G7/G20 established that.  The Ontario SolGen could have ordered them in but it chose not to.  At what point do you strip the big boy pants from a city of a million.  This wasn't Smiths Falls.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Ontario still had the ability to do more within the legal framework (including requesting military support if so desired), they just chose not to. There was no pressing time requirement, if they had waited a week, or a month, it likely would have made no more of a difference than invoking the act that day.


Where in Ontario didn’t have to deal with ridiculous political brinkmanship, it solved the issues quickly and without fuss, as HB said. Windsor, a few days to let folks make their case public ally until they impinged on the rights of others, then tied up with a peaceful bow.




Eaglelord17 said:


> What the Feds should have done is made a list of things the province had available as options and sent a copy of that list to the province as well as the media. Put the ball back in Ford's park and made him make a decision.


No, the Feds should have stopped fanning the flames with bombastic rhetoric from the outset, and head things off at the pass with a milquetoast virtual meeting, blah-de-blah-blah, donbetter, we hear you, etc. instead of shaping the event into a specious cause to enact the EA…


----------



## Journeyman (12 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Quite the witness list. This may be a spectacle.


Bread & circuses.  The people will be kept distractedly amused -- cheering as 'proof' anything supporting their ideology, and chirping at that which is contrary.  Health Canada recommends not holding your breath waiting for anything substantive to result.


----------



## Lumber (12 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Where in Ontario didn’t have to deal with ridiculous political brinkmanship, it solved the issues quickly and without fuss, as HB said. Windsor, a few days to let folks make their case public ally until they impinged on the rights of others, then tied up with a peaceful bow.


And just what "political brinkmanship" was going on that prevents the Ottawa and/or Ontario Police from doing their jobs?



Good2Golf said:


> No, the Feds should have stopped fanning the flames with bombastic rhetoric from the outset, and head things off at the pass with a milquetoast virtual meeting, blah-de-blah-blah, donbetter, we hear you, etc. instead of shaping the event into a specious cause to enact the EA…


Right, because the government had just been _itching _for an opportunity to use the EA (for some reason, that as soon as the convoy protest started, the government saw an opportunity and purposefully acted antagonistically in order to confound the situation and give themselves the excuse they needed to enact the EA, just so that they could cancel it 10 days later with no lasting consequences... yup, that makes sense to me!


----------



## Lumber (12 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The province already proved they had the necessary tools to end the protests when they moved on the Windsor blockades.  The use of the Emergencies Act was completely unnecessary.


So then why didn't the province or city of Ottawa _do_ any of that?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Oct 2022)

Watch the enquiry....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> So then why didn't the province or city of Ottawa _do_ any of that?


It's a good question 😉.  The answers are all inherently political.


----------



## QV (12 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> Right, because the government had just been _itching _for an opportunity to use the EA (for some reason, that as soon as the convoy protest started, the government saw an opportunity and purposefully acted antagonistically in order to confound the situation and give themselves the excuse they needed to enact the EA, just so that they could cancel it 10 days later with no lasting consequences... yup, that makes sense to me!



Justin Trudeau wanting a legacy like Pierre's "just watch me" ... do you think that is out of the realm of possibility with this guy?


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Oct 2022)

Why is it that politicians fail to do any number of manifestly necessary or even merely useful things?

A disadvantage of "democracy" is that it's difficult for people with high aptitudes to make careers out of becoming highly-competent politicians, so most gravitate to other endeavours (fortunately) and we endure relatively mediocre politicians.  France developed a partial solution, but its political culture has always tended toward centralization and a centuries-long shift from aristocracy to something approaching technocracy.


----------



## mariomike (12 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> A disadvantage of "democracy" is that it's difficult for people with high aptitudes to make careers out of becoming highly-competent politicians, so most gravitate to other endeavours (fortunately) and we endure relatively mediocre politicians.



I read James Garner said the only work he felt qualified to do was be an actor, or a politician.

"And I sure as ## wasn't going to become a politician. "


----------



## brihard (12 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> So then why didn't the province or city of Ottawa _do_ any of that?


Because policing in Ottawa is very political, and the Police Services Board hired Sloly as police chief, scoring themselves a palatable (uniformed) _politician_. Unfortunately for them, in January and February, the city of Ottawa needed a _cop._

It was, in the first instance, the municipality’s situation to resolve or to bungle, and Sloly did the latter.

I still maintain that - assuming a failure to prevent them parking their trucks in the first place - the request for assistance from OPP and RCMP (the latter of which has a couple thousand sworn police officers in the city of Ottawa, including a public order unit) should have gone in ASAP. Rather than waiting for the start of a weekend three weeks in when the protest was at full strength, police could have made the necessary declarations and given the necessary warnings on the first Monday, and used surprise and moved to eject the crowd and remove the vehicles at first light on the Tuesday or Wednesday.

Instead they were allowed to dig in like ticks and the whole thing took much longer, and necessitated calling in backup from literally all over the country. It should not be necessary for public order units from Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary to help clear out the downtown streets of Ottawa.

What WILL be interesting will be the convoy leaders testifying under oath. If they frig around they could perjure themselves.


----------



## childs56 (12 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Instead they were allowed to dig in like ticks and the whole thing took much longer, and necessitated calling in backup from literally all over the country. It should not be necessary for public order units from Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary to help clear out the downtown streets of Ottawa.


I guess next time their is a G7/8 or any other summit there is no necessity of calling back up from all over the country.  That is good to know will save us all a few bucks.  


brihard said:


> What WILL be interesting will be the convoy leaders testifying under oath. If they frig around they could perjure themselves.


What is funny is those who testified already for the other inquiries recently who have perjured themselves, found to of destroying evidence, misleading the public etc. Not much has happened.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> What is funny is those who testified already for the other inquiries recently who have perjured themselves, found to of destroying evidence, misleading the public etc. Not much has happened.


You mean like “the police asked us to enact the EA!” types?


----------



## brihard (12 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> I guess next time their is a G7/8 or any other summit there is no necessity of calling back up from all over the country.  That is good to know will save us all a few bucks.



Very different in scope and scale. A planned major event known to last for some time and which will need a long and sustainable security and public order presence will necessitate different approaches from an emergent public order situation like a protest that blows up beyond what was expected. A planned major event like G8 has known and public participation by domestic and international public officials, and Internationally Protected Persons. It has specific known sites (often several) that will require securing. To run that for a week or two while also providing continuity of normal
policing services takes planning and lots of bodies.

The manner in which one secures such things proactively to try to prevent or minimize public order disruptions is different from how one responds to something that brews up. Now, as I said, this could have been largely mitigated or prevented through zero tolerance to them Peking in the first place- I’m speaking in the context of “oh crap, it’s Monday and they’re still here”. Within a day a drive of Ottawa there are a number of police public order units and a ton of police who can throw on a uniform and do cop stuff. A good enough plan executed rapidly would have saved weeks of aggravation looking for a best case solution that could not be achieved.


----------



## QV (12 Oct 2022)

Glad to see Jody T on the list. Word on the street is she advised the PM a deal had been struck to scale back the protests, he disregarded and enacted the EA anyway.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Glad to see Jody T on the list. Word on the street is she advised the PM a deal had been struck to scale back the protests, he disregarded and enacted the EA anyway.


What street?  Word on other streets is she’s a hard core JT supporter firmly toeing the line to get an Ambassadorship…


----------



## brihard (12 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Glad to see Jody T on the list. Word on the street is she advised the PM a deal had been struck to scale back the protests, he disregarded and enacted the EA anyway.


What has been published so far on that is that there was a proposal, with very limited (if any) buy in, to move a modest portion of the protest vehicles out of a few residential streets down @dimsum ’s way. That would simply compress them a bit further into the area a couple blocks north- Wellington Street, where they were logjammed already. I’ve seen nothing that suggests there was any deal or arrangement either pending or plausible that would have seen the downtown core cleared of the vehicles. We still would have had to go in and clear them out. A bunch of the protesters made it VERY clear “we’re not moving”, and a good number of them didn’t until forced. So, I find this “almost a deal” narrative utterly unconvincing.


----------



## RangerRay (12 Oct 2022)

Who the feck is Jody T?


----------



## QV (12 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> What street?  Word on other streets is she’s a hard core JT supporter firmly toeing the line to get an Ambassadorship…


I don’t doubt that G2G. But under oath testimony may enlighten the inquiry about what was know and when.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Who the feck is Jody T?



NSIA


----------



## dapaterson (12 Oct 2022)

Daughter of a former VCDS.


----------



## RangerRay (12 Oct 2022)

Vielen dank!

Hopefully she will be able to articulate the grave threat to national security that warranted the EA being enacted, and not just three levels of government shitting the bed.


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> What has been published so far on that is that there was a proposal, with very limited (if any) buy in, to move a modest portion of the protest vehicles out of a few residential streets down @dimsum ’s way. That would simply compress them a bit further into the area a couple blocks north- Wellington Street, where they were logjammed already. I’ve seen nothing that suggests there was any deal or arrangement either pending or plausible that would have seen the downtown core cleared of the vehicles. We still would have had to go in and clear them out. A bunch of the protesters made it VERY clear “we’re not moving”, and a good number of them didn’t until forced. So, I find this “almost a deal” narrative utterly unconvincing.


It was kind of comical how many self proclaimed 'leaders of the convoy' there was at any given time. When the city announced they were negoting to move (with about 3 different groups) there was probably about a half dozen others that immediately disputed that.

Plus the locals didn't want anyone blocking their streets, as it's already crowded and difficult to navigate at the best of times, so it was a weird plan. At the same time locals started counter protesting in fairly large numbers, and doing things like blocking the trucks in and forcing them to hand over any flags and other paraphanelia before letting them go anywhere Fortunately all stayed civil, but only would have taken an idiot on either side to kick things off.


----------



## Lumber (12 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Justin Trudeau wanting a legacy like Pierre's "just watch me" ... do you think that is out of the realm of possibility with this guy?


JT wanting a legacy like Pierre's "just watch me"? No, not at all. _Any _politician would love to have a moment like that.

JT purposefully escalating a situation specifically so _he_ could manufacture such an opportunity? No. I do not see that in the realm of possibility.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> This. She said what she said. Now she gets to act like she didn’t _really_ mean it, but she’ll do so by ignoring the facts of some of what she said in the first place. More likely she got read the riot act and has come to realize that the rule of law includes respecting the decisions of the judiciary and that that’s part of what you have to accept to play at politics in any meaningful forum.



It's OK, Jewish Edmonton is reaching out to offer to upgrade her Grade 8 education 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580217546586087432


----------



## brihard (12 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> It was kind of comical how many self proclaimed 'leaders of the convoy' there was at any given time. When the city announced they were negoting to move (with about 3 different groups) there was probably about a half dozen others that immediately disputed that.
> 
> Plus the locals didn't want anyone blocking their streets, as it's already crowded and difficult to navigate at the best of times, so it was a weird plan. At the same time locals started counter protesting in fairly large numbers, and doing things like blocking the trucks in and forcing them to hand over any flags and other paraphanelia before letting them go anywhere Fortunately all stayed civil, but only would have taken an idiot on either side to kick things off.


Mm hm. There were definitely a modest number of figures with considerable influence over certain core constituent groups within the convoy- within certain broadly accepted arcs. I’m not convinced those self-appointed and partially-accepted leadership figures would have had the social capital within the movement to actually get them to leave once they were dug in. Quite bluntly there were a bunch of people there with no backup plan, although also within much of a conception of what success would look like. Once the convoy dug itself in, I think the reliance on the leadership figures who got them there diminished.


----------



## QV (13 Oct 2022)




----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Oct 2022)

QV said:


>


A bit of a *rant* ... and _Geezer Eruption_

Interesting interview; it illustrates,_ I think_, the depts of misunderstanding - sometimes deliberate and, occasionally, created by disinformation campaigns - on both sides.

For the record:

1. I live in centre-town Ottawa, two blocks away from one of the major "parking lots" (Laurier and Kent) and about six blocks from the epicentre at Parliament Hill;​2. The "occupation" - you cannot, in any honesty, call it anything else - was broadly and generally peaceful. It was NOT "law abiding;"​3. Thousands of Ottawa residents were more than just inconvenienced - some (NOT all, but some) of the truckers were trying to "terrorize" residents. The lawsuit filed by a neighbour was a good thing. My wife is still nervous when she hears truck horns. BUT, those would-be-"terrorists" were only a few - a few arseholes who should have been stopped on the first day; stopped forcefully by strong, even violent police action. _In my opinion_ Chief Peter Stoly made only one serious mistake - he didn't take down that few arseholes on the very first day - sending about a dozen truckers to jail ... after a week or so in the local hospital. The rest of his "_strategy_" - to end things peacefully - was, _in my view_, OK;​4. There was NO coherent, overall, protest leadership but Keith Wilson is right - many protest leaders were ready to de-escalate because they could see that they had lost too much public support;​5. Law enforcement did have some real problems - BUT NOT insurmountable ones: the OPP and RCMP and other police could have and should have been called in earlier - with the bill being sent, personally and very publicly, by Chief Story to Justin Trudeau; there were available heavy vehicles that could have started hauling away some big rigs - likely doing serious damage in the process; and *some* of the truckers were hell-bent on creating the biggest possible public relations mess, they actually wanted police violence and were willing to provoke it, too; but​6. Jim Watson and Peter Stoly could have settled this - with some but not too much violence - after a few days, not a few weeks, with some support from Doug Ford.​​ In my opinion partisan politics - the "alliance" between Justin Trudeau and Jim Watson against Doug Ford (and vice versa) - played a role. Trudeau, especially, wanted to "solve" this on his own terms and he didn't want Ford to get any credit, as he did at Windsor. Ford, for his part, was happy to see Watson flail about and not ask for help.

/rant


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> In my opinion partisan politics - the "alliance" between Justin Trudeau and Jim Watson against Doug Ford (and vice versa) - played a role. *Trudeau, especially, wanted to "solve" this on his own terms and he didn't want Ford to get any credit, as he did at Windsor. *Ford, for his part, was happy to see Watson flail about and not ask for help.


^This piece of prescient wisdom/insight.

Trudeau deserves owning his very formative part in the fiasco, including the ineptly clumsy and entirely unnecessary enacting of the EA.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (13 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> ^This piece of prescient wisdom/insight.
> 
> Trudeau deserves owning his very formative part in the fiasco, including the ineptly clumsy and entirely unnecessary enacting of the EA.


He also needs to own his unnecessarily inflammatory rhetoric at the outset of Convoy, which pretty much set the stage for what came after. It was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> He also needs to own his unnecessarily inflammatory rhetoric at the outset of Convoy, which pretty much set the stage for what came after. It was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (13 Oct 2022)

Don’t be surprised when you call everyone a racist or an extremist, that eventually,  the real racists and extremists show up…


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Don’t be surprised when you call everyone a racist or an extremist, that eventually,  the real racists and extremists show up…


I agree, fully, but, again, as a local "eye-witness" it remains _my firm belief_ that they were few and far between - some, to be sure, but the evidence of my own eyes, from my almost daily walk-about through the "occupation" zones is that most "occupiers" were decent, albeit misguided Canadians who felt that they had a real, valid grievance with the national government. Some were, as I said, above, arseholes and a few were, almost certainly racists and extremists and so on but most were not - misguided?: yes; lawbreakers?: yes, in too many cases; rude and noisy?: yes, indeed.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (13 Oct 2022)

I am not saying the Convoy was all racist or Extremist.

What I am saying is that when you demonize everyone who opposes you, eventually, the moderates either leave the field to the extremists or they themselves become radicalized out of frustration.

It was more of a general observation, than a specific one.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Don’t be surprised when you call everyone a racist or an extremist, that eventually,  the real racists and extremists show up…



“All empty souls tend toward extreme opinions.”
― William Butler Yeats


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Oct 2022)

Once you've been made to pay for the ticket, you may as well enjoy the ride.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> It was more of a general observation, than a specific one.


----------



## Lumber (13 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am not saying the Convoy was all racist or Extremist.
> 
> What I am saying is that when you demonize everyone who opposes you, eventually, the moderates either leave the field to the extremists or they themselves become radicalized out of frustration.
> 
> It was more of a general observation, than a specific one.


Except that he didn't call them all racists and extremists, he called a small group of them as such.


----------



## Lumber (13 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Trudeau deserves owning his very formative part in the fiasco, including the ineptly clumsy targeted and proportionate and entirely unnecessary necessary enacting of the EA.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## RedFive (13 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> Fixed that for you.


Ok so again, as I've pointed out. The Commissioner of the RCMP and other municipal Chiefs of Police are on record as stating they didn't need or ask for the EA. If that is so, how was it necessary? What specific power granted under the EA enabled Police to end the protest that didn't exist in other routine legislation?


----------



## QV (13 Oct 2022)

JT wanted his "just watch me" moment and he fumbled the ball in his zeal to get it.


----------



## QV (13 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> Fixed that for you.


_A national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that_

_(a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or_
_(b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada_
_and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada._

Trudeau clearly didn't believe the "fringe minority" with "unacceptable views" were threatening the integrity of the nation, did he? Although he did ask at one time if we "should tolerate" those kinds of people. Imagine for a moment that Trudeau probably believes he embodies the character of the person we should all aspire to. 

The circumstances did not meet the threshold. Period.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (13 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> Except that he didn't call them all racists and extremists, he called a small group of them as such.


Wait a minute.

You cannot have this both ways, Lumber.

If he called a small group of the Convoy racists and extremists (as you contend) then where is the threat to National Security that justified the EA?

Conversely, I seem to recall Trudeau declaring the whole lot of them racists, even before they hit the Manitoba/Ontario border (I cannot seem to find the news clip, so I am fully prepared to eat humble pie on this point.

The whole question of the EA turns on the legal test of the EA, that QV posted above.

I personally think the so called leaders of the convoy are duffuses. But I also live/lived in parts of Canada that are getting pretty angry with how Ottawa dismissively wipes out their livelihoods and then insults them ontop of it. Both things (idiot convoyers and legitimate grievances) can be simultaneously true.


----------



## Navy_Pete (13 Oct 2022)

I think the underlying cause of this was really the completely useless response by the city and OPS to control it to begin with. Windsor police showed you can clear up the blockages by actually doing something. OPS chose the COA of doing SFA and hoping for the best.

Stopping extremely loud, continuous honking shouldn't have taken a random citizen to get a court order when it's already against the city by laws and something they regulate everywhere else. If I have limited hours I can do construction, run a concert etc due to noise, they could have easily quickly stopped it at the begining.

Between the LRT and this, really just showed what an absolutely useless shower were in key positions. So relieved Watson is retiring, but really need a bit of a purge of his enablers on council as well. I really can't understate my contempt for their criminal levels of ineptitude and arrogance.


----------



## mariomike (13 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I think the underlying cause of this was really the completely useless response by the city and OPS to control it to begin with.



Control the streets at all times. Call reinforcements, if necessary.


----------



## Lumber (13 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Wait a minute.
> 
> You cannot have this both ways, Lumber.
> 
> If he called a small group of the Convoy racists and extremists (as you contend) then where is the threat to National Security that justified the EA?


You _can _have it both way. The EA wasn't enacted to deal with the small group of racists and extremists, it was to deal with the whole group. Anyone who was occupying downtown and blaring their horns all hours of the day was part of the problem, not just the few among them who were "racists and extremists".


QV said:


> _A national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that_
> 
> _(a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or_
> _(b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada_
> ...


The occupiers were seriously endangering the mental health of those living in and around the occupied area.

You can argue to death that the OPS and OPP had the _capacity _to deal with the problem, but capacity means nothing unless you actually use it. What else were the Feds suppose to do? Just let it keep going on? "Well, they the have the _capacity_ to do something, so we can't step in, even though they aren't _actually _doing anything, our hands are tied!". I.e. while it may not have exceeded the _capabilities_ of the OPS and OPP, it exceeded their _capacity to actually take action._


----------



## dimsum (13 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> The occupiers were seriously endangering the mental health of those living in and around the occupied area.


Not just mental health.  Ambulances could not get to certain areas for weeks, so one could argue that physical health was also affected.


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> You _can _have it both way. The EA wasn't enacted to deal with the small group of racists and extremists, it was to deal with the whole group. Anyone who was occupying downtown and blaring their horns all hours of the day was part of the problem, not just the few among them who were "racists and extremists".
> 
> The occupiers were seriously endangering the mental health of those living in and around the occupied area.
> 
> You can argue to death that the OPS and OPP had the _capacity _to deal with the problem, but capacity means nothing unless you actually use it. What else were the Feds suppose to do? Just let it keep going on? "Well, they the have the _capacity_ to do something, so we can't step in, even though they aren't _actually _doing anything, our hands are tied!". I.e. while it may not have exceeded the _capabilities_ of the OPS and OPP, it exceeded their _capacity to actually take action._


But the exact same agencies were involved after The Act was invoked than were, or were not, responding before it. Other than Junior’s “just watch me “ moment, what changed? Pure theatre, nothing more.


----------



## QV (13 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> You _can _have it both way. The EA wasn't enacted to deal with the small group of racists and extremists, it was to deal with the whole group. Anyone who was occupying downtown and blaring their horns all hours of the day was part of the problem, not just the few among them who were "racists and extremists".
> 
> The occupiers were seriously endangering the mental health of those living in and around the occupied area.
> 
> You can argue to death that the OPS and OPP had the _capacity _to deal with the problem, but capacity means nothing unless you actually use it. What else were the Feds suppose to do? Just let it keep going on? "Well, they the have the _capacity_ to do something, so we can't step in, even though they aren't _actually _doing anything, our hands are tied!". I.e. while it may not have exceeded the _capabilities_ of the OPS and OPP, it exceeded their _capacity to actually take action._


Lol, no.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Oct 2022)

Lots of folks conveniently forget that the Feds indeed were right in there as a chunk of the convoy was smack dab in the middle of the Parliamentary Precint…you know, the Fed enclave that has its own armed protection service in the heart of downtown Ottawa (and convoy CofG).  

#oopsforgptaboutthat


----------



## brihard (13 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Lots of folks conveniently forget that the Feds indeed were right in there as a chunk of the convoy was smack dab in the middle of the Parliamentary Precint…you know, the Fed enclave that has its own armed protection service in the heart of downtown Ottawa (and convoy CofG).
> 
> #oopsforgptaboutthat


They aren’t police or peace officers, and have no authority over Wellington street. They’re a security force empowered under very unique authorities of the speakers of the House and Senate. Employing PPS in any role other than their established duties to safeguard Parliamentary premises would have been very wrong.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> They aren’t police or peace officers, and have no authority over Wellington street. They’re a security force empowered under very unique authorities of the speakers of the House and Senate. Employing PPS in any role other than their established duties to safeguard Parliamentary premises would have been very wrong.


Ack, should have been clearer that one step north off Wellington and they’re in the Precinct, and there were a few Precint building that were in extreme close proximity to the occupiers…I think you had one right on your left hand side as you worked forward on the final line.


----------



## QV (14 Oct 2022)

I wonder if the judge appointed to lead this commission is connected to the LPC or Trudeau in anyway? That would be a bad start, one should think. But I suppose this PM isn't going to appoint someone completely free of bias...


----------



## Navy_Pete (14 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> I wonder if the judge appointed to lead this commission is connected to the LPC or Trudeau in anyway? That would be a bad start, one should think. But I suppose this PM isn't going to appoint someone completely free of bias...


Jesus, put the tin foil down. Our judges aren't elected politicians, they get appointed by non-partisan boards. They generally do as well of a job as anyone can of avoiding political bias influencing their decisions. It's not like the US where judges are actively campaigning.

Also being liberal or conservative doesn't mean you support LPC or CPC, so hard to piece out someone's voting support based on their decisions.

I don't think politics will enter into their finding, if the government screwed up they'll get a bollocking, if it was within the rules it will say so. I  don't think there will be any kind of clear cut decision either way though as a lot of it is objective, so best case is really some lessons learned, and maybe an opinion on if it was a reasonable decion, based on what was known at the time.


----------



## QV (14 Oct 2022)

No, I will not. I will question and muse about the legitimacy of anything I want to. And this government has demonstrated this is more necessary now. 

Your wishy washy answer is exactly what Trudeau is hoping for. "Well, there are so many feelings and emotions so we feel it was ok at the time... ". Bullshit. The EA either met the threshold to enact, or it didn't. If it didn't, I want to see heads roll (metaphorically of course).


----------



## QV (14 Oct 2022)

FJAG: does politics come in to play in judge appointments?


----------



## lenaitch (14 Oct 2022)

Of course politics come into play, in the sense that superior court judges are appointed by the Governor-in-Council (GG+Cabinet) based on the recommendations of an advisory commission.  Specifically:






						The Judiciary - Canada's Court System
					

An overview of Canada's court system by the Department of Justice Canada




					www.justice.gc.ca
				




Last I looked, Cabinet is composed of members of the party in power.

If a member of the military is sworn in under a particular government, does that make them a hack of the party in power?

Please, on all that is holy, save us from the partisan process of the US.


----------



## McG (15 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> there were available heavy vehicles that could have started hauling away some big rigs - likely doing serious damage in the process;


Ottawa police services updating their Christmas wish list.


----------



## winds_13 (16 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Jesus, put the tin foil down. Our judges aren't elected politicians, they get appointed by non-partisan boards. They generally do as well of a job as anyone can of avoiding political bias influencing their decisions. It's not like the US where judges are actively campaigning.
> 
> Also being liberal or conservative doesn't mean you support LPC or CPC, so hard to piece out someone's voting support based on their decisions.
> 
> I don't think politics will enter into their finding, if the government screwed up they'll get a bollocking, if it was within the rules it will say so. I  don't think there will be any kind of clear cut decision either way though as a lot of it is objective, so best case is really some lessons learned, and maybe an opinion on if it was a reasonable decion, based on what was known at the time.


Tin foil? I'm not going to argue that Justice Rouleau is incapable of carrying out his role in an unbiased manner, but there have been concerns about his appointment and connections to the Liberal party (LPC), as well as the government's attempt to narrow the inquiries scope away from the government's actions.

Paul Rouleau was appointed to the bench in 2022 by the Paul Martin government, having previously worked as a Liberal party staffer in the '80s under John Turner, including helping to pick the party's cabinet at the time. He has, in the past at least, been more involved in the LPC than merely holding party membership and giving small donations. This does not necessarily mean that he holds loyalty to the current government, but does bring up concerns about partisanship.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (17 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Jesus, put the tin foil down. Our judges aren't elected politicians, they get appointed by non-partisan boards. They generally do as well of a job as anyone can of avoiding political bias influencing their decisions. It's not like the US where judges are actively campaigning.
> 
> Also being liberal or conservative doesn't mean you support LPC or CPC, so hard to piece out someone's voting support based on their decisions.
> 
> I don't think politics will enter into their finding, if the government screwed up they'll get a bollocking, if it was within the rules it will say so. I  don't think there will be any kind of clear cut decision either way though as a lot of it is objective, so best case is really some lessons learned, and maybe an opinion on if it was a reasonable decion, based on what was known at the time.


They get recommended by non-partisan boards, they get appointed by the government. A very important distinction. The government can choose to ignore those recommendations or choose whomever suits themself if it so chooses. 

Politics does get involved in our appointment process. A substantial amount of judges appointed since Trudeau took power has been Liberal donors vs the amount of Conservative or NDP donors. It isn't an apolitical process. It doesn't mean that they are all biased, or that they weren't good choices, simply that it isn't the perfect system some think it is. They maybe decent judges, or lawyers, but they also could be in that position over someone more qualified who wasn't a Liberal donor. 









						Liberals under fire for partisan involvement in judicial appointments
					

E-mails obtained by The Globe show the participation of MPs, ministerial officials and party volunteers in judicial selection on federally appointed courts




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				












						Past Liberal donors still favoured for judicial appointments under Trudeau, Tories allege with new data
					

About 28% of federal judicial appointments or promotions have been people who have solely donated to the Liberals, compared to 4% who were solely Conservative…




					nationalpost.com


----------



## QV (17 Oct 2022)

Has anyone been following the witness testimony at the commission so far?


----------



## Quirky (17 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Has anyone been following the witness testimony at the commission so far?



Lots of complaining so far from people who lived there regarding the noise and occupation. Has nothing to do with the actual implementation of the EA just yet.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Oct 2022)

From The T-Star:









						Ford government turned down appeal to help Ottawa with ‘Freedom Convoy,’ inquiry told
					

The inquiry is tasked with probing why the federal government triggered the act and examine the extraordinary police powers the decision created.




					www.thestar.com
				












						Ford government turned down appeal to help Ottawa with ‘Freedom Convoy,’ inquiry told — Toronto Star
					

‘Freedom Convoy’ demonstrators embarked on a lengthy occupation around Parliament Hill in February.




					apple.news
				




A couple of things that jumped out at me from this report:

The Province of Ontario refused to assist the City. The Province is now backing the implementation of the EA.  They also refused to participate in meetings with the city and the Feds to resolve the problem
The RCMP were concerned the City had no plan to deploy the extra police they wanted
-The City ignored warnings from hotels that the convoy was planning on staying a long time. 

Sounds like a complete clusterf@&$. No wonder it turned into a shitshow.


----------



## Remius (17 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> From The T-Star:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Meh, most convoy types and supporters gave Ford a pass for mandates, I’m sure he’ll get a pass for supporting the EA.  

Still raises questions as to why Ford would actually support the implementation of the EA now when they wouldn’t work with the city or the feds then.

I have no doubt that the city had no real plan beyond « we need more people »


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Meh, most convoy types and supporters gave Ford a pass for mandates, I’m sure he’ll get a pass for supporting the EA.
> 
> Still raises questions as to _why Ford would actually support the implementation of the EA now when they wouldn’t work with the city or the feds then._
> 
> I have no doubt that the city had no real plan beyond « we need more people »



_I suspect_ that Team Ford, Doug Ford himself, for that matter, has a very well developed *tactical* sense of "whatever (action or inaction) works *for* us, right now, is good. Whatever doesn't work *for *us, right now, is not so good." 

_My guess_ is that Ford, _per se_, has little to no strategic vision about Ontario and Canada because he doesn't think or care about anything after the next season. He can do that, successfully, _I think_, because he *knows* that the Ontario voters have very, very short memories and their votes are fairly easily bought - remember "buck-a-beer?"

But, _I'm guessing_, also, that the *Ontario Conservatives*, above and beyond Premier Ford, do have a strategic vision and_ I think_ it says: "all that really matters is political peace - political peace between Ontario and Ottawa, between Ontario and Québec; between Ontario and the West, between Ontario and BC and between Ontario and Atlantic Canada, too. Ontario is THE engine of Canada's economic future; the others matter, but not very much."

Arithmetically, for them, Canada > Ontario but *Ontario >> than Canada minus Ontario*.​
_I suspect_, further, that the *Ontario Conservatives* also believe that:

1. When Canada votes Liberal, Ontario, generally, votes Conservative, and _vice versa_; and
2. Canada is *NOT* going to vote Conservative (Pierre Poilievre) in (or before)  2025.

My 2¢.


----------



## Quirky (17 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I have no doubt that the city had no real plan beyond « we need more people »



City and CAF are using the same strategy.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Oct 2022)

I don’t trust a single thing coming out of any City of Ottawa official, from the Mayor on down. The T-Star’s piece sounds like some high grade historical revisionism…so what was it, yes - desperate times needing emergency measures (as the city Mgr said they identified as early as 31 Jan), or no - we didn’t ask for the EA and just wanted some more cops to integrate into our solid plan to handle the situation?

Maskirovka…


----------



## mariomike (17 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> _My guess_ is that Ford, _per se_, has little to no strategic vision about Ontario and Canada because he doesn't think or care about anything after the next season. He can do that, successfully, _I think_, because he *knows* that the Ontario voters have very, very short memories and their votes are fairly easily bought - remember "buck-a-beer?"




"Buck-a-beer" was one thing. That's politics.

As far as public safety goes, when he was a councillor, Canada's largest city removed his brother's authority as mayor in case of emergency.

The vote was 41-2.

Rob and Doug were the two who voted against it.

Public safety should be more important than politics, in my opinion.

​


lenaitch said:


> Please, on all that is holy, save us from the partisan process of the US.



I hope so too.


----------



## brihard (17 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Has anyone been following the witness testimony at the commission so far?


Attempting to get caught up late in the day. Today’s has been very interesting- lots of internal communications between various officials are being disclosed. A ton of dirty laundry is being aired.

Some very prescient discussion on the logistical difficulty of removing the trucks has been made public. Also, it looks like, but for Trudeau invoking the Emergencies Act on Monday, Feb 14th, that same day we would have seen Ottawa city council vote on a motion to invoke s. 275 NDA, Aid to the Civil Power. A motion was being drafted to that effect on the 12th, and the text message referencing this reads that the necessary support was present at Council to pass it. Wow.

EDIT TO ADD: According to CTV reporter MacKenzie Gray, that text about Aid to Civil Power was to Bill Blair’s chief of staff, from Ottawa city councillor (and, incidentally, Afghanistan veteran) Matt Luloff. So this is someone who would have a more realistic grasp of CAF’s capabilities and assets than your average councillor.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Oct 2022)

Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?


----------



## Lumber (17 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?


No. It was Trudeau's intent all along to make this his defining moment. He would have found a way to delay any action by the City in order to create the justification for his enacting of the EA.


----------



## brihard (17 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?


I think we’re a ways away yet from anything conclusive being “safe to say”.

I’m confident that, from the first hour they arrived and began blocking any locations, police on the ground had all the legal _authorities_ necessary to prevent the occupation in the first place, and to move vehicles along, forcibly remove them, and arrest and criminally charge anyone who obstructed this. What I don’t know yet, and remain open to being convinced of one way or another, is whether, by that point in mid February, police still had the _logistical_ _ability _to effect the physical clearance of the blockades. It’s already becoming apparent that heavy wreckers simply were not available to be contracted in anything close to adequate numbers.

Obviously there are other aspects of the EA invocation that we’ll hear much more about too. I’m very interested to hear hopefully more about the intelligence and threat assessments, or at least what part of it is declassified.

This will be ongoing for weeks. I’ll reserve forming and expressing an opinion on the EA until at least everything that’s going to come out does and ai have a chance to digest it.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?


Are you buying into the conveniently set-up “It’s all Ford’s fault!” narrative? 

Well done, Team Justin…the masses (fully informed by the likes of the Toronto Star) are sharpening their pitchforks for Doug Ford, so it  would seem.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I think we’re a ways away yet from anything conclusive being “safe to say”.
> 
> I’m confident that, from the first hour they arrived and began blocking any locations, police on the ground had all the legal _authorities_ necessary to prevent the occupation in the first place, and to move vehicles along, forcibly remove them, and arrest and criminally charge anyone who obstructed this. What I don’t know yet, and remain open to being convinced of one way or another, is whether, by that point in mid February, police still had the _logistical_ _ability _to effect the physical clearance of the blockades. It’s already becoming apparent that heavy wreckers simply were not available to be contracted in anything close to adequate numbers.
> 
> ...


I guess that’s why I said “based on what has been disclosed so far” would that have been a valid COA for the Feds if the Province wasn’t providing the resources to the City as requested and if the City wasn’t such a disaster?

But you’re absolutely right. There is more to come out, especially the intelligence and threat assessments. If the government doesn’t provide receipts, they will look like even bigger fools than they have previously shown themselves to be.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Are you buying into the conveniently set-up “It’s all Ford’s fault!” narrative?
> 
> Well done, Team Justin…the masses (fully informed by the likes of the Toronto Star) are sharpening their pitchforks for Doug Ford, so it  would seem.


Not yet. Still more info to come out. If that’s the case though, they won’t be looking any better than the Feds if they were in a position to provide the resources the City needed to end that shitshow sooner without the EA.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Not yet. Still more info to come out. If that’s the case though, they won’t be looking any better than the Feds if they were in a position to provide the resources the City needed to end that shitshow sooner without the EA.


If there is a confirmed, formal request by the City of Ottawa to the Province of Ontario, that was formally declined/refused, that would be telling.  Right now, it seems no more than verbal recounting of recollections…I believe we deserve  more than just these non-evidentiary memories of how things were supposed to have gone down.


----------



## mariomike (17 Oct 2022)

Whatever the politics, it was good to see the police finally take back control of the streets.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Whatever the politics, it was good to see the police finally take back control of the streets.


It was ludicrous that it took so long.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2022)

L





SeaKingTacco said:


> Conversely, I seem to recall Trudeau declaring the whole lot of them racists, even before they hit the Manitoba/Ontario border (I cannot seem to find the news clip, so I am fully prepared to eat humble pie on this point.



Yup. Said they're mostly racists, mysoginists, and science deniers.


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> L
> 
> Yup. Said they're mostly racists, mysoginists, and science deniers.


Don't forget fringe element with unacceptable views, whatever those are.


----------



## QV (18 Oct 2022)

So far in my brief perusal of some of the witness testimony I gather the following made for a dangerous and volatile situation of national emergency and importance:
1. whirl pools, hot tubs, bouncy castles;
2. bbqs and improperly stored propane bottles;
3. dancing and bands particularly unsafe stages on the back of trucks
4. "festival" like activities without a festival permit
5. copious noise bylaws and parking infractions
6. a run on camping gear and Canadian flags from nearby stores
7. very junior public employees who are connected to politicians or senior bureaucrats complaining 
8. city denial of permits for porta potties
9. terrible coordination and communication between various agencies/leaders

I'm still waiting for the testimony detailing the immediate national threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence, but I guess that could be coming yet. Granted, I only listened to a few...


----------



## mariomike (18 Oct 2022)

Politics aside, the police - finally- took back control of the streets.

Too bad that it took so long.



Good2Golf said:


> It was ludicrous that it took so long.


----------



## Lumber (18 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> I'm still waiting for the testimony detailing the immediate national threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence, but I guess that could be coming yet. Granted, I only listened to a few...


A "threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence" is not the sole criteria/justification for the enactment of the EA, which you should know, since you copied and paste the criteria the other day.


----------



## brihard (18 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> So far in my brief perusal of some of the witness testimony I gather the following made for a dangerous and volatile situation of national emergency and importance:
> 1. whirl pools, hot tubs, bouncy castles;
> 2. bbqs and improperly stored propane bottles;
> 3. dancing and bands particularly unsafe stages on the back of trucks
> ...


Sure; you’ve given every indication that you made up your mind on this months ago. I’m sure none of us were sitting here thinking a couple days of testimony at the inquiry would have changed that.

You likely will not see any testimony about the threat to ‘Canada’s sovereign existence’, because that’s a fictitious threshold that isn’t part of the law, that nobody has asserted, and that you’ve made up for the purpose of your post.

We have several weeks of testimony yet. In the fullness of time we’ll see if the government establishes that there was, in fact, a “public order emergency” as described in SOR 2022/20, that it posed “a threat to the security of Canada”, and that it met the criteria of being a “national emergency”. Those are the relevant statutory boxes you’ll want to see if the government ticks. My mind remains open.


----------



## QV (18 Oct 2022)

Don't hold your breath.


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Sure; you’ve given every indication that you made up your mind on this months ago. I’m sure none of us were sitting here thinking a couple days of testimony at the inquiry would have changed that.
> 
> You likely will not see any testimony about the threat to ‘Canada’s sovereign existence’, because that’s a fictitious threshold that isn’t part of the law, that nobody has asserted, and that you’ve made up for the purpose of your post.
> 
> We have several weeks of testimony yet. In the fullness of time we’ll see if the government establishes that there was, in fact, a “public order emergency” as described in SOR 2022/20, that it posed “a threat to the security of Canada”, and that it met the criteria of being a “national emergency”. Those are the relevant statutory boxes you’ll want to see if the government ticks. My mind remains open.


Well, there was a large crowd of people firmly ensconsed on the front lawn of Parliament, some calling for the outright overthrow of the Federal government, with no effective police control.

There was definitely enough people to try to storm Parliament, even with a portion of them involved.

May not have been a significant risk, but low probability/high impact things can/do happen, so discounting that possibility completely is naive.

It's fundamentally a judgement call, which the people with the authority to do it made. If people don't like it they can express their discontent with their votes.

Fundamentally seems to be that the City lost the plot early, had no real plan to get it back, and doesn't seem to have made any actual plan. I'd be curious to see how many officers were actually required to clear the streets, but I think it was a lot less then 1800 additional cops.


----------



## mariomike (18 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Fundamentally seems to be that the City lost the plot early, had no real plan to get it back, and doesn't seem to have made any actual plan. I'd be curious to see how many officers were actually required to clear the streets, but I think it was a lot less then 1800 additional cops.



I think the Metro Police horses helped. I don't really understand it, but I witnessed the calming effect they had on angry people.


----------



## brihard (18 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Well, there was a large crowd of people firmly ensconsed on the front lawn of Parliament, some calling for the outright overthrow of the Federal government, with no effective police control.
> 
> There was definitely enough people to try to storm Parliament, even with a portion of them involved.
> 
> ...



Maybe not a lot less. I counted 20 different public order units, give or take one or two. That’s not far off a thousand right there, maybe more. Then there were numerous tactical teams for overwatch, a lot of uniforms to take custody of and process prisoners passed back by the public order units, a lot of uniforms (day shift and night shift) to hold and secure the ground we had taken back, lots of members on outer cordon to stop or control traffic into the area generally, a bunch in various logistical roles, lots of extra uniforms as a protective presence at various federal sites in Ottawa… I don’t have a number to put to this, but 1800 isn’t out of the ballpark. And there were still normal non-convoy related policing requirements on top of all that. It was a lot. I’ve never seen anything like it.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> I think the Metro Police horses helped. I don't really understand it, but I witnessed the calming effect they had on angry people.









I guess that goes for Police Horses as well 😁


----------



## medicineman (18 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> I think the Metro Police horses helped. I don't really understand it, but I witnessed the calming effect they had on angry people.


To paraphrase Kevin Bridges, "calm down, or you're getting stomped"


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Maybe not a lot less. I counted 20 different public order units, give or take one or two. That’s not far off a thousand right there, maybe more. Then there were numerous tactical teams for overwatch, a lot of uniforms to take custody of and process prisoners passed back by the public order units, a lot of uniforms (day shift and night shift) to hold and secure the ground we had taken back, lots of members on outer cordon to stop or control traffic into the area generally, a bunch in various logistical roles, lots of extra uniforms as a protective presence at various federal sites in Ottawa… I don’t have a number to put to this, but 1800 isn’t out of the ballpark. And there were still normal non-convoy related policing requirements on top of all that. It was a lot. I’ve never seen anything like it.


According to their site, they have just under 1500 officers in the OPS (maybe 800-1000 actual useful bodies for a few day shifts), so guess I'm curious how many additional police came from extra jurisdictions.

I think I saw there was OPP, police from QC (Gantinea/SQ?), the horse units from Toronto, some RCMP, but from an outsiders perspective, seems like they may have had enough people to clear them out if they had done it after the initial weekend without requiring so much drama.


----------



## QV (18 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Well, there was a large crowd of people firmly ensconsed on the front lawn of Parliament, some calling for the outright overthrow of the Federal government, with no effective police control.
> 
> There was definitely enough people to try to storm Parliament, even with a portion of them involved.
> 
> ...



Do you think there was a real risk of overthrowing the government? Is a large crowd waving Canadian flags gathered in front of Parliament a legit threat to enact the EA?

If everyone is ok with the EA enactment in this instance including the bank account freezing, then I look forward to it's application in all future instances of similar (subjective) gravity under different governments.


----------



## brihard (18 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> According to their site, they have just under 1500 officers in the OPS (maybe 800-1000 actual useful bodies for a few day shifts), so guess I'm curious how many additional police came from extra jurisdictions.
> 
> I think I saw there was OPP, police from QC (Gantinea/SQ?), the horse units from Toronto, some RCMP, but from an outsiders perspective, seems like they may have had enough people to clear them out if they had done it after the initial weekend without requiring so much drama.


The overwhelming majority of police are not trained or equipped for public order work. The public order units I mentioned were just the actual trained members who can go in and engage with crowds in a controlled and disciplined fashion, and who were properly equipped to do so if violence starts and projectiles start getting thrown. Off the top of my head I saw OPS, OPP, Ottawa RCMP, Ontario RCMP, Quebec RCMP, Alberta RCMP, Durham, Peel, Halton, Toronto, Quebec provincial police, I think Sudbury, Saskatoon, I think Regina, Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver. I believe I’m forgetting a couple; the number 18 sticks out in my mind.

OPS has a bit under 1300 police officers. Sounds like a lot, but some are always off sick, parental leave, etc. A bunch are in various investigative or support units. A bit under half of the uniformed total are on front line, such as (but not limited to) general patrol- 625~ before soft vacancies like sick, parental, or light/accommodated duties etc. The patrol members are divided into six shifts, one or two of which are on at any given time, depending on time of day (they have some overlaps at shift change and afternoon/evening). Those front line members have to cover what is by far Canada’s largest municipal jurisdiction by area; Ottawa’s turf is very large. They have to still go to domestics, collisions, and robberies out in Cumberland, Vars, Constance Bay, Manotick, Osgoode, Stittsville… normal human stupidity doesn’t stop just because a bunch of raging idiots are in town. Though obviously ever member they had who could conceivably be available was pulled in to downtown.



So yeah- I believe that, after the convoy had had a weekend to dig in and occupy downtown, something in the range of those numbers was needed. They also needed enough that if the convoy successfully rallied more people to come join in the face of impending police action, there would have been more bodies.

Bear in mind also that at the last moment, the convoy crowd mostly turned and fled, and those who stuck around didn’t actually put up much of a fight in real physical terms. Lots of pushing and shoving, but I believe they were surprised when we actually moved on them, and that many had actually drank enough kook aid that they thought we would take their side. I saw real surprise and dismay when they realized they were getting forcibly cleared out. We could not predict that that would be the case; there was a lot of reason to believe many were gearing up for a fight. I’m very glad the actions didn’t match the bluster.


----------



## OceanBonfire (18 Oct 2022)

> RCMP spokeswoman Robin Percival said in a statement the force withheld the information in question since it could “reasonably be expected to threaten the safety” of officers.











						RCMP refused release of badge numbers, fearing convoy supporters would dox officers
					

Internal documents show the RCMP refused to release the badge numbers of officers who cleared 'Freedom Convoy' protesters from the Ambassador Bridge last winter, citing a risk of violence from their supporters.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						RCMP refused badge number release, fearing convoy protesters would dox officers  | Globalnews.ca
					

The RCMP have been accused of shielding the identities of officers subject to complaints of overly aggressive behaviour, such as during protests in British Columbia.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Do you think there was a real risk of overthrowing the government? Is a large crowd waving Canadian flags gathered in front of Parliament a legit threat to enact the EA?
> 
> If everyone is ok with the EA enactment in this instance including the bank account freezing, then I look forward to it's application in all future instances of similar (subjective) gravity under different governments.


I think there were a significant number of people who believed they could legitimately force out the democratically elected government. I know there are still pods of them floating around the area, and doing stupid things like trying to arrest police in Barrie (?).

Crowd dynamics and psychology are a very strange thing (which we don't really understand), you see people get regularly caught up in them and do very uncharacteristic things like riot after a Stanley cup (or alternately try and charge gunmen). 

I imagine if you looked at the Jan 6th crowd in the US the average person probably was just an average person, but for whatever reason was enough lunatics there to push them into storming the capitol, trying to lynch people, and getting people killed.

I'm glad it ended peacefully, but also could have easily gone sideways if some people decided to go pokey chest instead.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I think there were a significant number of people who believed they could legitimately force out the democratically elected government. I know there are still pods of them floating around the area, and doing stupid things like trying to arrest police in Barrie (?).
> 
> Crowd dynamics and psychology are a very strange thing (which we don't really understand), you see people get regularly caught up in them and do very uncharacteristic things like riot after a Stanley cup (or alternately try and charge gunmen).
> 
> ...


The mob mentality should never be underestimated. We see it constantly.


----------



## QV (18 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I think there were a significant number of people who believed they could legitimately force out the democratically elected government. I know there are still pods of them floating around the area, and doing stupid things like trying to arrest police in Barrie (?).
> 
> Crowd dynamics and psychology are a very strange thing (which we don't really understand), you see people get regularly caught up in them and do very uncharacteristic things like riot after a Stanley cup (or alternately try and charge gunmen).
> 
> ...


You’re dancing around the issue. What a handful of nuts believe is irrelevant. There was never a real threat to over throw the government, neither here nor the Jan 6th debacle down south.

This is the new gaslight. When a large group of disaffected voters is pissed off and showing it, they’re a threat to democracy.


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> You’re dancing around the issue. What a handful of nuts believe is irrelevant. There was never a real threat to over throw the government, neither here nor the Jan 6th debacle down south.
> 
> This is the new gaslight. When a large group of disaffected voters is pissed off and showing it, they’re a threat to democracy.


I'm not at all; and there were a lot more than a handful.

You only need a few pissed off people with intentions to get a mob of generally frustrated people to start flipping cars and burning things.

If you look at any of the academic studies done of crowds where things have gone wrong, it really can be traced down to a single thing sparking a group of people to stampede/riot etc. You are really naive if you don't think there were people there that would have loved for it to have turned violent, and take all the dissaffected voters for a ride.


----------



## mariomike (18 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The mob mentality should never be underestimated. We see it constantly.



"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”
George Carlin


----------



## Navy_Pete (18 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”
> George Carlin


I don't even think it's stupid people; lot of smart individuals do stupid things in large groups.

The leaders of the convoy don't seem to have a grasp of basic Canadian civics, but don't think they are any dumber/smarter than the average person. I do think that the Freedom Convoy was collectively stupid though, and their behaviour backed it up.

On their own, I doubt they would be shitting on sidewalks or peeing on monuments, but in the big collective, others were doing it so suddenly became okay for the group.


----------



## RangerRay (18 Oct 2022)

No doubt this could be self-serving babble from Mayor Watson and PM Trudeau, but it still looks like Premier Ford has some ‘splainin’ to do.  Especially now that he has come out in favour of enacting the EA. 









						Trudeau accused Ontario Premier Doug Ford of ‘hiding’ during convoy protests, new documents show
					

Minutes of a phone call revealed during Emergencies Act inquiry show that the mayor and prime minister expressed their frustration with Ontario’s leadership during convoy protests




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## QV (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I'm not at all; and there were a lot more than a handful.
> 
> You only need a few pissed off people with intentions to get a mob of generally frustrated people to start flipping cars and burning things.
> 
> If you look at any of the academic studies done of crowds where things have gone wrong, it really can be traced down to a single thing sparking a group of people to stampede/riot etc. You are really naive if you don't think there were people there that would have loved for it to have turned violent, and take all the dissaffected voters for a ride.


No one is arguing whether a few can lead a crowd to do bad things. None of what happened justified the EA. Neither does a riot or car flipping. News flash: there are violent people around everywhere... still no EA required.


----------



## QV (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> On their own, I doubt they would be shitting on sidewalks or peeing on monuments, but in the big collective, others were doing it so suddenly became okay for the group.



We know how the CAF can be characterized as an organization of sexual miscreants, or police as abusing their powers, when we allow the actions of a tiny fraction to label the whole. Of course we all know this isn’t true, it’s only applied when someone needs to degenerate a large group, like your statement about “the group” shitting on sidewalks and pissing on monuments.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (19 Oct 2022)

Just remember the creators of the act decided not to use it during the Oka Crisis, which could have very easily been a battle on Canadian soil. This 'crisis' falls far short of what the Oka Crisis was in my mind.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> No one is arguing whether a few can lead a crowd to do bad things. None of what happened justified the EA. Neither does a riot or car flipping. News flash: there are violent people around everywhere... still no EA required.





At the end of the day this whole inquiry is a waste of time and money.

The government said the police asked for
the EA, the police said no we didn't. 

When the LPC gets bored of humoring the inquiry they're just going to pull out a card that says NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy and that's the end of it.

Evidence why we needed to ban guns? Sorry, NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy.

Something about COVID?
NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy.


----------



## RangerRay (19 Oct 2022)

Now it’s sounding like CSIS found no evidence of foreign funding or influence. That is one of the main reasons the Feds used to invoke the EA









						‘Freedom Convoy’ didn’t need help from foreigners to overwhelm Ottawa police, inquiry told — Toronto Star
					

Former Ottawa police chief Peter Sloly Sloly resigned in February after being roundly criticized over his handling of the “Freedom Convoy” protest.




					apple.news


----------



## winds_13 (19 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Now it’s sounding like CSIS found no evidence of foreign funding or influence. That is one of the main reasons the Feds used to invoke the EA
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the Deputy Director of FINTRAC testified that there was no suspicious link to foreign funding back in February.









						‘Freedom convoy’ fundraising: No rise in suspicious transaction reports due to protests, financial watchdog says
					

The deputy director of Fintrac testified Thursday as the National Security Committee probed violent extremism and those funding it, against a backdrop of protests unfolding across the country against vaccine mandates and health restrictions.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Oct 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Well, the Deputy Director of FINTRAC testified that there was no suspicious link to foreign funding back in February.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shhhhhhh.  That's not the narrative.


----------



## Remius (19 Oct 2022)

__





						Loading...
					





					www.cbc.ca
				




Seems like PP and Ford they won’t be friends anytime soon…


----------



## Edward Campbell (19 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ford is doing what he thinks will "sell" in Ontario.

_*My guess*_ is that he, and his team, never, ever got along with the CPC - not with Scheer, not with O'Toole and not, at all, with Poilievre. I go back to the arithmetic:

Canada  > Ontario, but
Ontario >> Canada minus Ontario
_I suspect_ that Team Ford thinks it can manoeuvre Canada into doing whatever Ontario wants and needs. (I understand that want  ≠ need.)

I don't expect the Ontario PCs to offer any meaningful support to Pierre Poilievre's CPC in the next election. _My guess_, only a WAG to be sure, is that they, the Ontario PCs, have their own choice for Canada and we'll find out who after the next election which_ I think_ the Ontario PCs believe will be a very, very narrow CPC victory but not enough to overturn the Liberals. In other words, _I think_ that the Ontario PCs _think_ that PP cannot win Ontario.


----------



## dapaterson (19 Oct 2022)

I suspect the OPC wants the CPC in opposition; a CPC federal government normally results in an Ontario Liberal government.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe it will give people reason to not blindly equate federal and provincial parties’ names.  

If in BC, ‘c’onservatives can call themselves ‘Liberals,’ then folks shouldn’t be surprised that other provinces and the feds political nomenclature isn’t an r=1.0 perfect correlation.


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Oct 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Just remember the creators of the act decided not to use it during the Oka Crisis, which could have very easily been a battle on Canadian soil. This 'crisis' falls far short of what the Oka Crisis was in my mind.


Yes, but they deployed the military instead, in a support to civil power.

That's actually a much higher escalation than the use of the EA here.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yes, but they deployed the military instead, in a support to civil power.
> 
> That's actually a much higher escalation than the use of the EA here.


That should have been used before the EA was. I am a firm believer in the seperation of powers as defined by our constitution. We took a provincial matter and made it a federal one with the EA enactment.


----------



## QV (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yes, but they deployed the military instead, in a support to civil power.
> 
> That's actually a much higher escalation than the use of the EA here.


Aid to civil power can be for harsh winter storms... the EA and what followed/could follow is on an entirely different level.


----------



## brihard (19 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Aid to civil power can be for harsh winter storms... the EA and what followed/could follow is on an entirely different level.


It cannot. While CAF can provide assistance to provinces for disasters and such, that’s not what “aid of the civil power” actually is. AoCP (s. 275 NDA) is assisting in the case of a “riot or disturbance of the peace, beyond the powers of the civil authorities to repress, prevent, or deal with”. That can be requested by a province, and mandates a provincial inquiry following invocation. There’s also, separately, the S. 273.6 provision for assistance to law enforcement. The Governor in Council, or the Minister of National Defence, can direct CAF assistance to law enforcement if it’s in the national interest and “the matter cannot be effectively dealt with except with the assistance of the Canadian Forces”. That’s a ‘top down’ federal power and doesn’t require a provincial request.

We throw “aid to the civil power” around too loosely. Cleaning up after a hurricane is a very different thing, legally, from coming out under provincial request or federal direction to assist law enforcement.


----------



## Remius (19 Oct 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582730314433994752
Diane Deans isn’t holding back…


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Oct 2022)

The magic words are "aid" and "assistance".  They are not simply decorators.


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Oct 2022)

I really fail to see how calling in the department that is intended to kill foreign people and break their stuff for Canada isn't an escalation compared to getting in extra police who are trained and equipped for things like large crowd control.

The biggest take away from Oka was when NOT to use the CAF domestically.


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582730314433994752
> Diane Deans isn’t holding back…


Huge loss that she's not staying in council, will be missed but wish her well and glad she's doing better health wise.


----------



## brihard (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I really fail to see how calling in the department that is intended to kill foreign people and break their stuff for Canada isn't an escalation compared to getting in extra police who are trained and equipped for things like large crowd control.



Minor point, but no legislation or federal proclamation is needed to bring in more police. Police render mutual assistance on request of appropriate levels of government regularly. See for instance the Olympics, G8/G20, etc. the Emergency Measures Regulations didn’t impact this.





__





						Canada Gazette, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1: Emergency Measures Regulations
					

February 15, 2022, Part 2, Volume 156, Number 1, Canada Gazette




					www.gazette.gc.ca


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Minor point, but no legislation or federal proclamation is needed to bring in more police. Police render mutual assistance on request of appropriate levels of government regularly. See for instance the Olympics, G8/G20, etc. the Emergency Measures Regulations didn’t impact this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For sure, but that seems to require a certain degree of leadership not being useless. At the time I was curious if the EA allowed someone else to take he lead in the response, and was primarily a forcing function. The OPS seemed to have leadership issues for a while before this.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> The OPS seemed to have leadership issues for a while before this.


Yeah, was surprised they weren’t able to get tow trucks right away…. 😉


----------



## lenaitch (19 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> For sure, but that seems to require a certain degree of leadership not being useless. At the time I was curious if the EA allowed someone else to take he lead in the response, and was primarily a forcing function. The OPS seemed to have leadership issues for a while before this.


The EA order didn't change the lead law enforcement/public safety responsibility for any of the sites, including Ottawa.

I'm not familiar with the ongoing machinations of the Ottawa PS, but in the immediate time frame of the protest, leadership issues seemed to vanish and the efficient deployment of other services seemed to sprout after the chief resigned.  Serendipitous?  Perhaps not.


Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, was surprised they weren’t able to get tow trucks right away…. 😉


I was under the impression, from the media only, that heavy recovery operators in the area were reluctant to get on the bad side of their bread and butter.  It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes out in testimony in this regard.


----------



## brihard (19 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, was surprised they weren’t able to get tow trucks right away…. 😉





lenaitch said:


> I was under the impression, from the media only, that heavy recovery operators in the area were reluctant to get on the bad side of their bread and butter.  It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes out in testimony in this regard.



He was making a super OOFy Ottawa inside joke. Quite magnificently, I might add.



			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6381644


----------



## lenaitch (19 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> You’re dancing around the issue. What a handful of nuts believe is irrelevant. There was never a real threat to over throw the government, neither here nor the Jan 6th debacle down south.
> 
> This is the new gaslight. When a large group of disaffected voters is pissed off and showing it, they’re a threat to democracy.


Off topic for this thread but do you honestly believe that the January 6th events in Washington, which saw hundred of people storm and breach the Capitol, resulting in an ultimately fatal confrontation with security and caused the suspension, at least temporarily, of the peaceful transition of executive authority, as just a bunch of "disaffected voters"?


----------



## Haggis (19 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I was under the impression, from the media only, that heavy recovery operators in the area were reluctant to get on the bad side of their bread and butter.  It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes out in testimony in this regard.


That was initially true.  The commission was told that those firms who participated in the final clear out of the convoy vehicles de-labeled/de-branded their wreckers and covered their faces.


----------



## brihard (19 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> That was initially true.  The commission was told that those firms who participated in the final clear out of the convoy vehicles de-labeled/de-branded their wreckers and covered their faces.


They did. Everything was painted/taped over on their wreckers. That was after EA, so it’s not clear if they had to be compelled to assist. A few wreckers seem to have been acquired by the city and had Ottawa Police insignia on them.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> They did. Everything was painted/taped over on their wreckers. That was after EA, so it’s not clear if they had to be compelled to assist. A few wreckers seem to have been acquired by the city and had Ottawa Police insignia on them.


I wonder if they were 'borrowed' from OC Transit.  They are one of the few transit agencies that have (had?) their own fleet of heavy wreckers.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I wonder if they were 'borrowed' from OC Transit.  They are one of the few transit agencies that have (had?) their own fleet of heavy wreckers.


Borrowed/commandeered/directed to support fellow City of Ottawa department, they were available from the outset.  Just to confirm I wasn’t imagining things, I drove past the OC Transpo yard at Industrial Ave/St.Laurent Blvd…there were at least 5-6 tandem/tri-axel OCTranspo wreckers I could see, mostly Mack and Volvo.  Prior to the convoy, you occasionally see OC’s heavy wreckers recovering broken down buses around town.


__
		https://flic.kr/p/hWZ2xC


__
		https://flic.kr/p/h9uc9L


----------



## brihard (19 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I wonder if they were 'borrowed' from OC Transit.  They are one of the few transit agencies that have (had?) their own fleet of heavy wreckers.


Don’t know if it was the same ones, but I’m confident OC Transpo’s recovery vehicles would have been in play.

I saw the wreckers staged, but all the truck removal was, for obvious reasons, well behind us, so I didn’t see them at work.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Oct 2022)

This may be a stupid question but what prevented the police from arresting someone, taking their truck keys, and moving the trucks themselves.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This may be a stupid question but what prevented the police from arresting someone, taking their truck keys, and moving the trucks themselves.


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This may be a stupid question but what prevented the police from arresting someone, taking their truck keys, and moving the trucks themselves.


Competence.


----------



## brihard (20 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This may be a stupid question but what prevented the police from arresting someone, taking their truck keys, and moving the trucks themselves.



Not a stupid question. Lots of reasons. It did happen to a small degree (I saw a couple cases of it firsthand), but the biggest challenge would be actually making the right arrests out of thousands in the crowd, locating keys, and being able to match them to trucks. The crowd wasn’t kettled, nothing stopped someone with truck keys from not being within reach of police, simply walking away, or handing them to a friend. Plus when you have trucks parked dozens deep and side by side, a single truck that you don’t have the keys to can block dozens of others even if you do. Also, many trucks were registered to businesses, not by individuals, so we couldn’t necessarily match prisoners to trucks. If I arrest someone, find keys on him, and ask him which truck is his, nothing stops him from refusing to tell me if I have the keys to a parked truck, and simply telling me what to do with myself instead. Some trucks were also mechanically disabled. So, this was successful for a few vehicles, but not many.



PuckChaser said:


> Competence.



You’re wrong, and way out of your lane on this one.


----------



## RedFive (20 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This may be a stupid question but what prevented the police from arresting someone, taking their truck keys, and moving the trucks themselves.


Disregard Brihard has it covered.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Oct 2022)

Sounds like OPP intel is saying there was no credible intel on violence or threat to national security. 









						OPP intelligence says convoy protests presented no ‘credible’ threat of extremist violence — Toronto Star
					

Pat Morris of the OPP waits to appear as a witness at the Public Order Emergency Commission in Ottawa, on Wednesday, Oct. 19.




					apple.news
				





> OTTAWA — The intelligence chief of the Ontario Provincial Police told a federal inquiry Wednesday that he saw no “credible” information of a national security threat or extremist violence during the self-styled “Freedom Convoy” protests.
> 
> 
> The statement appears to contradict assertions from the federal government, which cited the threat of political violence as part of its justification for invoking the Emergencies Act to deal with the demonstrations last winter.
> ...


----------



## brihard (20 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> A couple things come to mind, legality of search for said keys, appropriately trained and licensed drivers, civil liability for said trucks afterwards.


Not really We got several sets of keys in lawful searches incidental to arrest. No issue there. Any of the trucks could be seized as evidence of an offence; some of them are in fact still being held and some of the protesters facing charges are super salty about that, but too bad so sad. Nothing wrong with authorities moving them or having them moved if there’s someone competent to drive it. Liability wouldn’t be much of a concern given the exigencies of the situation. If someone used their truck in the Commission of an offence and wanted to file a civil claim because it damaged on removal, they could have at ‘er.

We’re still really lucky most of them turned and fled at the last minute. It was a major undertaking even just with what remained.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Oct 2022)

Thanks Brihard and RedFive.

By my way of thinking most sets of keys should have keyfobs and automatic locks on them. Hit the button a few times and it beeps and blinks, unless trucks like that don't those. 
[UFI-holding a keyfob against your head when you hit the button will increase the range].

If most truckers were sleeping in their trucks it might have been easy to wait then out. If they were in hotels then not so much.


We're just lucky earth wasn't passing through a comets tail at the time..


----------



## QV (20 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Off topic for this thread but do you honestly believe that the January 6th events in Washington, which saw hundred of people storm and breach the Capitol, resulting in an ultimately fatal confrontation with security and caused the suspension, at least temporarily, of the peaceful transition of executive authority, as just a bunch of "disaffected voters"?


Yes. Do you think for a microsecond the most powerful country in the history of civilization was at any serious risk from buffalo hat guy and his friends?


----------



## QV (20 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This may be a stupid question but what prevented the police from arresting someone, taking their truck keys, and moving the trucks themselves.


There is probably not an insignificant amount of support for the trucker cause amongst police. I’d also guess police were reluctant to do anything to a participant of a peaceful and lawful protest (which this was, for the most part).

In the early days of this, avoiding getting into a potential use of force incident over a parking violation was probably a wise discretionary call.


----------



## Remius (20 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Yes. Do you think for a microsecond the most powerful country in the history of civilization was at any serious risk from buffalo hat guy and his friends?


I think its is safe to say that the democratic process was.  Enough to have the elected body moved to safer locations and look at alternate means to carry on the business of government.


----------



## Remius (20 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> There is probably not an insignificant amount of support for the trucker cause amongst police. I’d also guess police were reluctant to do anything to a participant of a peaceful and lawful protest (which this was, for the most part).
> 
> In the early days of this, avoiding getting into a potential use of force incident over a parking violation was probably a wise discretionary call.


Non-violent but unlawful protest.  Just to clarify.


----------



## Navy_Pete (20 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I think its is safe to say that the democratic process was.  Enough to have the elected body moved to safer locations and look at alternate means to carry on the business of government.


I think if they got through the doors it would have been a much different story with a lot more dead. But with the speed at which the people that were cowering on the floor praying for their lives flipped the narrative on it to not being a big deal I'm not sure there would have been any meaningful change either way.


----------



## brihard (20 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Thanks Brihard and RedFive.
> 
> By my way of thinking most sets of keys should have keyfobs and automatic locks on them. Hit the button a few times and it beeps and blinks, unless trucks like that don't those.
> [UFI-holding a keyfob against your head when you hit the button will increase the range].
> ...



If it was just a matter of getting them moved, say clearing a highway after a massive snowstorm with a bunch of abandoned cars, sure just hand out keys to officers and walk the line trying to make cars beep. Thing is, with the convoy, the keys to any of the blockade vehicles are also potentially physical evidence of crimes. Continuity of that evidence matters. I’m not saying that would automatically override anything else, but it would be a factor against handing out keys willy nilly. If I arrest a guy, find keys on him, and they can be linked to a truck that’s part of the criminal offence of mischief, then we need to be account for possession and custody of those keys. They become evidence that that person had possession and control of that vehicle for the relevant times.

Adding criminal prosecution and chain of evidence means additional levels of complexity.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Thanks Brihard and RedFive.
> 
> By my way of thinking most sets of keys should have keyfobs and automatic locks on them. Hit the button a few times and it beeps and blinks, unless trucks like that don't those.
> [UFI-holding a keyfob against your head when you hit the button will increase the range].
> ...


I don't think remote entry fobs have been around as long in heavy commercial vehicles as they have in cars and pick-ups.  I have also heard, anecdotally, that many owners disable them as they can be pirated fairly easily.  As well, many install mechanical disablers (simple hidden switches for fuel pump, etc.).



Jarnhamar said:


> [UFI-holding a keyfob against your head when you hit the button will increase the range].


----------



## lenaitch (20 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Yes. Do you think for a microsecond the most powerful country in the history of civilization was at any serious risk from buffalo hat guy and his friends?


No, but the Senators and staff that were present, and the legislative action they were trying to perform, were.

Telling that you think the death, injury and damage we all saw was the justified action action of disaffected voters.


----------



## QV (20 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> No, but the Senators and staff that were present, and the legislative action they were trying to perform, were.
> 
> Telling that you think the death, injury and damage we all saw was the justified action action of disaffected voters.


I see you are attempting to mind read. Still, the nation was not at risk. Try not to let our difference of opinion drive your emotional response. This is not the topic for this thread.


----------



## lenaitch (20 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> This is not the topic for this thread.


Fair.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Oct 2022)

Now it looks like Ontario had good reason to be so stand-offish with the the City. Sounds like a complete gong show. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-inquiry-freedom-convoy-ottawa-police-patricia-ferguson-testimony-1.6623485


----------



## QV (21 Oct 2022)

So... so far:

No credible evidence of extremist violence or a national security threat - check
“Freedom Convoy” has not been linked to any spike in suspicious financial transactions - check
No substantial convoy connections to foreign organizations - check
Heavy wreckers were available to the city - check

This is starting to look quite bad for the EA.


----------



## mariomike (21 Oct 2022)

‘Freedom Convoy’ forced kids’ chemo delays, rescheduling for 13 families: CHEO - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The convoy protests entirely blocked some downtown Ottawa streets with trucks, vehicles, and other infrastructure — including a bouncy castle and a hot tub




					globalnews.ca
				




It was nice to see police - finally - regain control of the streets.


----------



## QV (21 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> ‘Freedom Convoy’ forced kids’ chemo delays, rescheduling for 13 families: CHEO - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The convoy protests entirely blocked some downtown Ottawa streets with trucks, vehicles, and other infrastructure — including a bouncy castle and a hot tub
> ...


Really? It's nice to see the lockdowns dropped too...:



			https://www.cbc.ca/radio/whitecoat/pediatric-cancer-diagnosis-delays-covid-wcba-1.6253093
		










						Cancer surgery delays caused by COVID-19 could lead to shorter life spans: study - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Cancer surgery delays brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic could impact long-term survival for many patients, a new Canadian study shows.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## mariomike (21 Oct 2022)

From your link, QV.



> “The health-care response to the COVID-19 pandemic in Ontario was driven by an intention to protect vulnerable populations of patients and reserve adequate health care resources to manage a potential surge of patients with COVID-19,” the study said.





QV said:


> Really?




Yes, really.



> It was nice to see police - finally - regain control of the streets.


----------



## QV (21 Oct 2022)

We really arguing that lockdowns and procedure delays didn't cause harm?


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Oct 2022)

There isn't really any argument; everyone who matters knew going in that pandemic mitigation was going to militate other health care.


----------



## Lumber (21 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> We really arguing that lockdowns and procedure delays didn't cause harm?


No, but with the data available and the time and the data available now, it was the correct decision.


----------



## QV (21 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> No, but with the data available and the time and the data available now, it was the correct decision.



Wrong. There were many world renown SMEs in this field who spoke against all that - they were de-platformed. The Great Barrington Declaration is the most notable list. Turns out they were right.


----------



## QV (21 Oct 2022)

Rupa Subramanya: Justin Trudeau's case against the Freedom Convoy falls on its face
					

How are our elected officials who purvey what can only be called misinformation be held to account?




					nationalpost.com
				




The comments (most liked) give me faith in humanity.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Wrong. There were many world renown SMEs in this field who spoke against all that - they were de-platformed. The Great Barrington Declaration is the most notable list. Turns out they were right.


Shhh...follow the science......ok the science says.....not that science....shut up and just ban them


----------



## Haggis (21 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> So... so far:
> 
> No credible evidence of extremist violence or a national security threat - check
> “Freedom Convoy” has not been linked to any spike in suspicious financial transactions - check
> ...


Oh, look!  Over here!  Over heere!  Yes, this way.  New gun laws in effect today!!


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> The Great Barrington Declaration is the most notable list.



You mean the declaration with a bunch of fake signatories?

Just some food for thought: 5 failings of the Great Barrington Declaration

The Great Barrington Declaration: When Arrogance Leads to Recklessness

Maybe read the rebuttal: John Snow Memorandum

But then, your mind is made up anyway.  Maybe someone else will appreciate this info.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> Oh, look!  Over here!  Over heere!  Yes, this way.  New gun laws in effect today!!


You should see the gun stores in Toronto. Very busy. In my short trip to one in particular I saw Asian-Canadians in business suits buying pistols , Tavors and KS7s.

Edit:looks like some may have picked up pistolas just in time.


----------



## mariomike (21 Oct 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> But then, your mind is made up anyway.  Maybe someone else will appreciate this info.



Or, they can take medical advice from anonymous internet chat room profiles.


----------



## Lumber (21 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Rupa Subramanya: Justin Trudeau's case against the Freedom Convoy falls on its face
> 
> 
> How are our elected officials who purvey what can only be called misinformation be held to account?
> ...



From the most liked comment:



> "tired of seeing the only fair reporting from Fox News..."



LOL.


----------



## Lumber (21 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Rupa Subramanya: Justin Trudeau's case against the Freedom Convoy falls on its face
> 
> 
> How are our elected officials who purvey what can only be called misinformation be held to account?
> ...



From the second most liked comment:



> If it wasn’t for the trucker protests, Trudeau would still have all his draconian mandates in place..



Yea that's not what happened. If anything it may have delayed repealing of FEDERAL measures so as to save face and not look like they were caving to protestors. 

So, also LOL.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Or, they can take medical advice from anonymous internet chat room profiles.



I take my advice from medical doctors, unless I disagree with the doctor then they're just a quack.

Same with following science. I trust it as long as I agree with it.


----------



## RangerRay (21 Oct 2022)

Honest question…

Is it legitimate for the Feds to enact the EA to regain control of a situation when the City can’t find its ass with both hands and the Province sits back with popcorn, regardless of the lack of credible intelligence on national security threats?  Is it enough to have a lawless situation that is not being addressed adequately by local officials with readily available tools?


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Honest question…
> 
> Is it legitimate for the Feds to enact the EA to regain control of a situation when the City can’t find its ass with both hands and the Province sits back with popcorn, regardless of the lack of credible intelligence on national security threats?  Is it enough to have a lawless situation that is not being addressed adequately by local officials with readily available tools?


From the Act:

*“3* For the purposes of this Act, a national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that


(a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, *or*
(b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada
and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.”

Also:

“
public order emergency means an emergency that arises from threats to the security of Canada and that is so serious as to be a national emergency; (état d’urgence)

threats to the security of Canada has the meaning assigned by section 2 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act. (menaces envers la sécurité du Canada)”

Bear in mind that the context of the Emergncies Act proclamation was not the Ottawa occupation isolation, but the larger context of the border blockades (however long or short) at Coutts, Emerson, Windsor etc, the the prospect of all of these things continuing, reoccurring, or inspiring similar events elsewhere.

Isolated to one city, it would be very difficult to argue that the necessary thresholds under the Act were met. When there are several major disruptive events across different jurisdiction, that may be easier to articulate. I suspect we’ll hear more on that later.


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I trust it as long as I agree with it.



Sounds like my marriage. If our views are different, obviously, hers are correct.  



brihard said:


> Bear in mind that the context of the Emergncies Act proclamation was not the Ottawa occupation isolation, but the larger context of the border blockades (however long or short) at Coutts, Emerson, Windsor etc, the the prospect of all of these things continuing, reoccurring, or inspiring similar events elsewhere.











						Two-thirds support Trudeau's use of Emergencies Act against protesters: poll
					

The government has tabled the motions in the Commons on the specific powers in the act, which would remain in effect for 30 days unless the government revokes them sooner.




					ottawa.citynews.ca
				




Be interesting to see if Canadians have changed their opinion.


----------



## FSTO (22 Oct 2022)

I cannot wait to hear the howls when the EA is used for a protest by non-déplorables.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> I cannot wait to hear the howls when the EA is used for a protest by non-déplorables.


Whataboutism will surely be invoked when it isn’t.


----------



## FSTO (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Whataboutism will surely be invoked when it isn’t.


Like the not withstanding clause, once the seal is broken……


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Honest question…
> 
> Is it legitimate for the Feds to enact the EA to regain control of a situation when the City can’t find its ass with both hands and the Province sits back with popcorn, regardless of the lack of credible intelligence on national security threats?  Is it enough to have a lawless situation that is not being addressed adequately by local officials with readily available tools?


My guess is the inquiry will come to an answer in that.

I don’t think the act was needed.  What was needed was the city of Ottawa and OPS in particular to get THEIR act together. 

Did the EA expedite an end to the mess?  Yes. But so many other things I think could have been done before.


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> My guess is the inquiry will come to an answer in that.
> 
> I don’t think the act was needed.  What was needed was the city of Ottawa and OPS in particular to get THEIR act together.
> 
> Did the EA expedite an end to the mess?  Yes. But so many other things I think could have been done before.


Tangential but related, Ottawa’s Police Services Board has appointed a new chief. RCMP Assistant Commissioner Eric Stubbs has been headhunted.

Stubbs previously commanded Terrace, BC and Prince George, BC detachments as Inspector and Superintendent respectively. He worked at RCMP national headquarters in Ottawa as a Chief Superintendent, and then returned to BC on promotion to Assistant Commissioner. There, he was the Criminal Operations officer for BC RCMP- functionally, the 2ic of all RCMP in BC, and the ultimate decision maker and oversight for most operational policing matters. He’s got a lot of experience in engaging directly with municipal governments as the OIC of local police, overseeing major organizational initiatives, and overseeing major public order events. What I’ve seen from a lot of Mounties so far is “our loss”, and “another good officer leaves the force”. So, at first glance, Ottawa may be well served by this outsider coming in. He has no Ottawa municipal (or convoy) baggage that I’m aware of.

The Police Services Board’s decision to make this appointment days before a municipal election is a separate and very contentious matter (bracing myself for @dapaterson to light me up), but, for better or worse, there’s gonna be some stability for a while now.


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Oct 2022)




----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

I think the real hero was Zexi Li.

_I love my community so much ... I am heartbroken by the trauma that is being inflicted on me and my neighbours ... to feel like a prisoner in my own home by people who claim to stand for freedom._


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Bear in mind that the context of the Emergncies Act proclamation was not the Ottawa occupation isolation, but the larger context of the border blockades (however long or short) at Coutts, Emerson, Windsor etc, the the prospect of all of these things continuing, reoccurring, or inspiring similar events elsewhere.
> 
> Isolated to one city, it would be very difficult to argue that the necessary thresholds under the Act were met. When there are several major disruptive events across different jurisdiction, that may be easier to articulate. I suspect we’ll hear more on that later.


Respectfully, I think this is a stretch.  Windsor was resolved when the Province of Ontario filed a court injunction (11 Feb) and used WPS and OPP to clear the blockade (12 Feb) peacefully within hours of the injunction, several days before the EA was enacted. By timelines, as far as I can tell, Coutts was again resolved locally when the convoy protesters left peacefully on Tuesday 15 Feb, following the RCMP’s weapons bust on Monday 14 Feb (day of, but before the Parliament vote to enact the EA) and charges laid in a small group of protesters that had integrated themselves into the larger peaceful group. Perhaps there is a case that the EA enactment late on 14 Feb influenced the Emerson, MB blockade removal late-15/early-16 Feb, although any media and RCMP statements I find surrounding that crossing makes no reference to the EA.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> I think the real hero was Zexi Li.
> 
> _I love my community so much ... I am heartbroken by the trauma that is being inflicted on me and my neighbours ... to feel like a prisoner in my own home by people who claim to stand for freedom._



If that was trauma I really hope hard times don't really befall so if these folks.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If that was trauma I really hope hard times don't really befall so if these folks.


We get it.  You have no sympathy for the real people that were affected by this.


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> We get it.  You have no sympathy for the real people that were affected by this.



The class action looks interesting.









						Ottawa Convoy Class Action
					






					www.ottawaconvoyclassaction.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> We get it.  You have no sympathy for the real people that were affected by this.



First world problems bro.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> First world problems bro.


Misinformed outsiders that have a built in irrational hatred for Ottawa is more like it.   And that don’t really care who gets hurt as long as it fits their politics.  Bro.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Misinformed outsiders that have a built in irrational hatred for Ottawa is more like it.   And that don’t really care who gets hurt as long as it fits their politics.  Bro.



I don't hate Ottawa.  It has my favorite airport


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't hate Ottawa.  It has my favorite airport


It does have a Tim’s or two in it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> It does have a Tim’s or two in it.



I love the lay out.  Easy to navigate.  Always my preference for coming and going from home.


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Misinformed outsiders that have a built in irrational hatred for Ottawa is more like it.   And that don’t really care who gets hurt as long as it fits their politics.  Bro.



Seems like the majority named in the class action came from out of town.


----------



## Quirky (22 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If that was trauma I really hope hard times don't really befall so if these folks.



Younger people in general can't cope with....much of anything these days. I see it within the CAF as well. Life is tough and sucks some times, get over it.


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Life is tough and sucks some times, get over it.



Looks like they have not.


			https://www.ottawaconvoyclassaction.ca/claim.pdf
		


The damages claimed are


$36-million for pain and suffering and psychological distress
$200-million for business losses
$60-million for loss of wages
$10-million as punitive damages
Injunctive relief prohibiting the continuation of the tortious behaviour
Interest
Legal costs, including HST


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Respectfully, I think this is a stretch.  Windsor was resolved when the Province of Ontario filed a court injunction (11 Feb) and used WPS and OPP to clear the blockade (12 Feb) peacefully within hours of the injunction, several days before the EA was enacted. By timelines, as far as I can tell, Coutts was again resolved locally when the convoy protesters left peacefully on Tuesday 15 Feb, following the RCMP’s weapons bust on Monday 14 Feb (day of, but before the Parliament vote to enact the EA) and charges laid in a small group of protesters that had integrated themselves into the larger peaceful group. Perhaps there is a case that the EA enactment late on 14 Feb influenced the Emerson, MB blockade removal late-15/early-16 Feb, although any media and RCMP statements I find surrounding that crossing makes no reference to the EA.


I’m not saying that argument will prevail; just that the whole thing is more than just Ottawa.


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> We get it.  You have no sympathy for the real people that were affected by this.


The same can be said by those harmed by mandates and lockdowns.

I guess if we were to take a poll, there would be far less sympathy for public servants who still got paid during the whole fiasco.


----------



## RangerRay (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> The same can be said by those harmed by mandates and lockdowns.
> 
> I guess if we were to take a poll, there would be far less sympathy for public servants who still got paid during the whole fiasco.


So that excuses people acting like animals and jackasses?


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2022)

WTF are you talking about now?


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> The same can be said by those harmed by mandates and lockdowns.



Whether some agree with it or not, this was the intention, ( from the link you posted ).



> The health-care response to the COVID-19 pandemic in Ontario was driven by an intention to protect vulnerable populations of patients and reserve adequate health care resources to manage a potential surge of patients with COVID-19,” the study said.


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not saying that argument will prevail; just that the whole thing is more than just Ottawa.


In many aspects yes, but I would say moreso the level of discontent that fed the initial idea.  The specifics of the EA enactment can of course be viewed through positive, negative or neutral lenses.  By the time we get to “actions taken in other locations that were resolved BEFORE the EA was enacted, but there may have been some influence of discussion about EA use that factored into pre-EA resolution of issues in those locations,” I think the a case for the use of the EA, as you highlighted earlier in the thread, is rather far from the “means of last resort” that the EA is intended to be.


----------



## Navy_Pete (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> The same can be said by those harmed by mandates and lockdowns.
> 
> I guess if we were to take a poll, there would be far less sympathy for public servants who still got paid during the whole fiasco.



Why shouldn't the public servants who were still working not still get paid?

That is just an ignorant AF assertion that the PS doesn't do anything; it's hardly the worker bee's fault if things take longer because there are 10 steps now instead of 2 to get the same thing done, or that the different department priorities are generally in conflict and actively slows down progress.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> The same can be said by those harmed by mandates and lockdowns.
> 
> I guess if we were to take a poll, there would be far less sympathy for public servants who still got paid during the whole fiasco.


How about CAF types?  I love how some always excuse themselves from sucking the public teat while pointing the finger.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Oct 2022)

At some point, stress does excuse people.  Stress can militate against rational behaviour.  It isn't reasonable that we can compartment different stresses into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" causes of irrational behaviour, nor can we quantify stress and treat it as the only factor; resilience - a human quality, therefore highly variable - matters also.


----------



## Booter (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> We really arguing that lockdowns and procedure delays didn't cause harm?


…


QV said:


> Yes. Do you think for a microsecond the most powerful country in the history of civilization was at any serious risk from buffalo hat guy and his friends?


Maybe individuals were at risk from the the lockdowns but the nation and it’s democracy wasnt- so that means the harm isn’t real. 

Your rules. Not mine.


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> In many aspects yes, but I would say moreso the level of discontent that fed the initial idea.  The specifics of the EA enactment can of course be viewed through positive, negative or neutral lenses.  By the time we get to “actions taken in other locations that were resolved BEFORE the EA was enacted, but there may have been some influence of discussion about EA use that factored into pre-EA resolution of issues in those locations,” I think the a case for the use of the EA, as you highlighted earlier in the thread, is rather far from the “means of last resort” that the EA is intended to be.


As I’ve said, my mind isn’t yet made up one way or another.


----------



## Navy_Pete (22 Oct 2022)

Booter said:


> …
> 
> Maybe individuals were at risk from the the lockdowns but the nation and it’s democracy wasnt- so that means the harm isn’t real.
> 
> Your rules. Not mine.


The people storming the Capitol building were deliberately trying to overturn the results of the democratic vote, with Trump and co actively encouraging the VP, govenors etc to also illegally subvert the results. 

Just because they weren't successful, the intent was pretty clear and the effort was made. That's why 'attempted' and 'conspiracy to..' charges exist.


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Why shouldn't the public servants who were still working not still get paid?
> 
> That is just an ignorant AF assertion that the PS doesn't do anything; it's hardly the worker bee's fault if things take longer because there are 10 steps now instead of 2 to get the same thing done, or that the different department priorities are generally in conflict and actively slows down progress.


Like it or not, at the outset of the lockdowns many people stopped getting paid except public servants. Ignore that at your peril.


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> How about CAF types?  I love how some always excuse themselves from sucking the public teat while pointing the finger.


The CAF falls in the same boat.


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2022)

Booter said:


> …
> 
> Maybe individuals were at risk from the the lockdowns but the nation and it’s democracy wasnt- so that means the harm isn’t real.
> 
> Your rules. Not mine.


Oh I thought we were basing this on emotion? You can’t keep changing the rules.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Like it or not, at the outset of the lockdowns many people stopped getting paid except public servants. Ignore that at your peril.


Hold your horses - some of us public servants didn't have the opportunity to "work" from home. Add to that about 1500 of us were housing people that should not be on the streets - no matter what the JHS says.

Your brush was pretty broad.


----------



## Booter (22 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> The people storming the Capitol building were deliberately trying to overturn the results of the democratic vote, with Trump and co actively encouraging the VP, govenors etc to also illegally subvert the results.
> 
> Just because they weren't successful, the intent was pretty clear and the effort was made. That's why 'attempted' and 'conspiracy to..' charges exist.


Sarcasm I need to use that emoji, I apologize.


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Hold your horses - some of us public servants didn't have the opportunity to "work" from home.



Wouldn't that have been nice.


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Hold your horses - some of us public servants didn't have the opportunity to "work" from home. Add to that about 1500 of us were housing people that should not be on the streets - no matter what the JHS says.
> 
> Your brush was pretty broad.


It’s not my brush. I’m pointing out that while the private sector got shut down, the public service did not regardless if they were working on site or sitting at home waiting for their DVPNI to be bought, imaged, and issued. Ottawa public servants complaining about the honking are unlikely to get sympathy from people who couldn’t work for months and had to rely on CERB.

When someone states the convoy had “no sympathy for the real people affected by this”… my point is that goes both ways.


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> It’s not my brush. I’m pointing out that while the private sector got shut down, the public service did not regardless if they were working on site or sitting at home waiting for their DVPNI to be bought, imaged, and issued. Ottawa public servants complaining about the honking are unlikely to get sympathy from people who couldn’t work for months and had to rely on CERB.
> 
> When someone states the convoy had “no sympathy for the real people affected by this”… my point is that goes both ways.


And again, the majority of residents affected by the convoy were not public servants, and those who are generally have nothing to do with government policy. That’s not the demographics of that area of town. It’s super clear you know frig all about the character of downtown, centretown, and lowertown Ottawa. You’ve been deliberately ignoring this every time it’s pointed out to you.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> And again, the majority of residents affected by the convoy were not public servants, and those who are generally have nothing to do with government policy. That’s not the demographics of that area of town. It’s super clear you know frig all about the character of downtown, centretown, and lowertown Ottawa. You’ve been deliberately ignoring this every time it’s pointed out to you.


I can’t believe we have to keep explaining that.  Over and over and over.


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I can’t believe we have to keep explaining that.  Over and over and over.


Right? It’s like “no, you fools, we live in the suburbs. Downtown is full of students and service sector wage workers.” One public servant gets a lawsuit going and they act like downtown Ottawa is full of the luxury apartments of mid to upper level Parliamentary apparatchiks who spend the day figuring out how to screw Western Canada before hitting the evening cocktail party circuit.

It’s ignorance, and it’s been _wilful_ ignorance since at least April.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Right? It’s like “no, you fools, we live in the suburbs. Downtown is full of students and service sector wage workers.” One public servant gets a lawsuit going and they act like downtown Ottawa is full of the luxury apartments of mid to upper level Parliamentary apparatchiks who spend the day figuring out how to screw Western Canada before hitting the evening cocktail party circuit.
> 
> It’s ignorance, and it’s been _wilful_ ignorance since at least April.


I have been in downtown Ottawa a few times and yes the people live right there - real close to Parliament and the War Memorial.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Right? It’s like “no, you fools, we live in the suburbs. Downtown is full of students and service sector wage workers.” One public servant gets a lawsuit going and they act like downtown Ottawa is full of the luxury apartments of mid to upper level Parliamentary apparatchiks who spend the day figuring out how to screw Western Canada before hitting the evening cocktail party circuit.
> 
> It’s ignorance, and it’s been _wilful_ ignorance since at least April.









This is what we all really want to see in downtown Ottawa 😁


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> And again, the majority of residents affected by the convoy were not public servants, and those who are generally have nothing to do with government policy. That’s not the demographics of that area of town. It’s super clear you know frig all about the character of downtown, centretown, and lowertown Ottawa. You’ve been deliberately ignoring this every time it’s pointed out to you.


I'm referring to two things here. The government employees testifying at the hearing and the ridings in Ottawa that were swept by the LPC in the last election. Until those two groups start caring about anyone other than themselves, likely no great majority will care about them and the phantom honking either.


----------



## Navy_Pete (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> I'm referring to two things here. The government employees testifying at the hearing and the ridings in Ottawa that were swept by the LPC in the last election. Until those two groups start caring about anyone other than themselves, likely no great majority will care about them and the phantom honking either.


You will generally find caring about other people's concern very rapidly gets overshadowed by 24/7 horns blaring at 120 dB, or being unable to drive down your street. A lot of people were sympathetic to the issue but their assclown behaviour still wasn't acceptable.

Most people that live right downtown aren't government employees anyway though, and the convoy shut down a lot of small businesses for weeks, putting the people that work there out of work.

But don't let facts enter into your firmly held, unshakeable opinion on something you experienced second/third hand.


----------



## Spencer100 (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> The same can be said by those harmed by mandates and lockdowns.
> 
> I guess if we were to take a poll, there would be far less sympathy for public servants who still got paid during the whole fiasco.


Bingo


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

There are fallacies in your post. The convoy didn't shut any businesses down. The city/police did (for covid reasons or presumably to deny services to the convoy). The convoy participants were happy to utilize the services in the surrounding area and some businesses had huge profits until forced to close. Plenty of reporting on this outside of the MSM. 

My opinion is this: Trudeau invoked the EA without meeting the legal threshold and it was anecdotally obvious throughout. It's looking more and more like that is true. 

What's funny is I also suggested compassion should go both ways and that triggers a few of you.


----------



## Navy_Pete (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> There are fallacies in your post. The convoy didn't shut any businesses down. The city/police did (for covid reasons or presumably to deny services to the convoy). The convoy participants were happy to utilize the services in the surrounding area and some businesses had huge profits until forced to close. Plenty of reporting on this outside of the MSM.
> 
> My opinion is this: Trudeau invoked the EA without meeting the legal threshold and it was anecdotally obvious throughout. It's looking more and more like that is true.
> 
> What's funny is I also suggested compassion should go both ways and that triggers a few of you.


My point, which you seem to entirely ignore, is that people lose sympathy for you if you sit screaming in their faces. 

Compassion does go both ways, but when I'm sitting at home and some assclown is speeding around my neighbourhood honking continuously I frankly don't care what their problem is. Similarly shutting down key choke points in the roads and impacting ambulance/fire fighter response times is also a piss off for us that live here. I don't really care what your alternative media says, there were a lot of people behaving like absolute assholes.

At the time of the convoy, masking was still in effect, with fines for businesses that didn't abide by them. Rather than have their employees yelled at or physically assaulted by out of town assholes, a lot of businesses voluntarily shut down their businesses for their safety/unwillingness to get fined, not the police.


----------



## brihard (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> There are fallacies in your post. The convoy didn't shut any businesses down. The city/police did (for covid reasons or presumably to deny services to the convoy). The convoy participants were happy to utilize the services in the surrounding area and some businesses had huge profits until forced to close. Plenty of reporting on this outside of the MSM.
> 
> My opinion is this: Trudeau invoked the EA without meeting the legal threshold and it was anecdotally obvious throughout. It's looking more and more like that is true.
> 
> What's funny is I also suggested compassion should go both ways and that triggers a few of you.


You’re utterly unacquainted with facts on this matter. The Rideau Centre alone was 175 business and closed at the discretion of the owners because police were unable to maintain public order within the mall.





__





						CF Rideau Centre will remain closed as 'Freedom Convoy' protest continues in downtown Ottawa
					

Cadillac Fairview said in a statement that authorities "cannot provide any assurances that it is safe" to open the Rideau Centre amid the "Freedom Convoy" protest against COVID-19 mandates.




					beta.ctvnews.ca
				




Many other businesses in the downtown core had to close for similar safety reasons. Customers and staff were getting harassed by convoy protesters.





__





						Trucker protest forces downtown Ottawa businesses to stay closed as COVID restrictions ease  | Globalnews.ca
					

Businesses in Ottawa's downtown core who were getting ready to reopen after Ontario's COVID-19 lockdown, have had to stay closed due to the ongoing protest downtown.




					globalnews.ca
				




Please stop making things up. You aren’t even good at it.


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> My point, which you seem to entirely ignore, is that people lose sympathy for you* if you sit screaming in their faces.*
> 
> Compassion does go both ways, but when I'm sitting at home and some assclown is speeding around my neighbourhood honking continuously I frankly don't care what their problem is.* Similarly shutting down key choke points in the roads and impacting ambulance/fire fighter response times is also a piss *off for us that live here. I don't really care what your alternative media says, there were a lot of people behaving like absolute assholes.
> 
> At the time of the convoy, masking was still in effect, with fines for businesses that didn't abide by them. Rather than have their employees yelled at or physically assaulted by out of town assholes, a lot of businesses *voluntarily shut down their businesses for their safety/unwillingness to get fined*, not the police.


Screaming in faces... the convoy was just screaming in the faces of the residents the whole time? Wildly exaggerated on your part. 

There was testimony from city officials that blocked fire/ambulance response didn't happen... they even used an example during the hearing.  

"Voluntarily shut down their businesses for their safety/unwillingness to get fined"... ok, so who would do the fining? Testimony also provided evidence that violence was simply non-existent for such a large protest and the duration.


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> You’re utterly unacquainted with facts on this matter. The Rideau Centre alone was 175 business and closed at the discretion of the owners because police worthy were unable to maintain public order within the mall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Brihard, I suspect if the commission finds the EA enactment lawful, "gleeful" wouldn't be a stretch to describe how you'd feel.  

If you read the first link you provided, they closed the mall because *they weren't sure* they could keep people safe. Not because of any real act of violence. Oh, and some people weren't wearing masks.

Your second link, again no violence at all. Biggest crime was unmasked people. They closed businesses to discourage people from coming to the downtown core "staff and customers were barred from the area". 

Seems to me much of this was self-inflicted by the city/police/ and media spin. This is all weak as fuck. 

Can you tell me again about the grave national security threat justifying the successor to the War Measures Act?


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Oct 2022)

This stuff is all just classic class war, dressed up with a pandemic facade.  Bosses vs workers.  The wrinkle is that the old "left vanguard" (artists, intellectuals, aristocrats, etc) started openly despising the workers some time ago, and the worker faction has found a new home with upstarts on the right.

The institutions of the state will necessarily, in the absence of complete revolution, be aligned with the bosses.  That still leaves a lot of room for people to ask whether they are upholding order or revenge, and to modify the spirit of obedience accordingly.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> This stuff is all just classic class war, dressed up with a pandemic facade.  Bosses vs workers.  The wrinkle is that the old "left vanguard" (artists, intellectuals, aristocrats, etc) started openly despising the workers some time ago, and the worker faction has found a new home with upstarts on the right.
> 
> The institutions of the state will necessarily, in the absence of complete revolution, be aligned with the bosses.  That still leaves a lot of room for people to ask whether they are upholding order or revenge, and to modify the spirit of obedience accordingly.


----------



## mariomike (24 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't really care what your alternative media says, there were a lot of people behaving like absolute assholes.


From what I saw on TV, they seemed to be experiencing an elated feeling of empowerment over others. Like it was something they were entitled to.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Oct 2022)

As I said in another thread the LPC is petty and vindictive. Heads will roll before the next election


----------



## brihard (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Brihard, I suspect if the commission finds the EA enactment lawful, "gleeful" wouldn't be a stretch to describe how you'd feel.
> 
> If you read the first link you provided, they closed the mall because *they weren't sure* they could keep people safe. Not because of any real act of violence. Oh, and some people weren't wearing masks.
> 
> ...


Wrong. The EA was, so far as I can tell, irrelevant to the role I personally played in the whole thing. If the commission finds it to have been justified, or not, I’ll accept either decision without preference. I’m simply sad either way that what happened in my city happened. It’s not to me to justify the EA; I have no dog in that fight and I remain open minded to either outcome and interested in the results of the judicial inquiry.

In any case, you’re changing the subject and moving the goalposts. Your claim was, and I quote, “The convoy didn't shut any businesses down. The city/police did (for covid reasons or presumably to deny services to the convoy).”

That was disingenuous, and then doubling down on it once you were corrected on it crossed into blatant dishonestly. You being committed to a lie doesn’t make it not a lie.

The management of the Rideau Centre shut it down because they were unable to safely remain open during the convoy protests. I presented just a couple public domain articles, but this is something our city lived and that many of us experienced firsthand. The Rideau Centre is simply the one biggest example, but there were a great many. Exceptionally few people were interested in shopping or dining in areas where they may be subject to hearing damage. Many businesses could not safely open because of the excess noise in the area. Noise levels were measured and were dangerous; that’s not conducive to good business. Protesters engaged in rampant harassment of individuals who chose to wear masks. We have members of this site who experienced that personally. Protesters physically blockaded a number of blocks of the city. Emergency vehicles could not get through if needed. These were not circumstances in which many businesses could safely remain open.

A bunch of us lived this while you just watched gleefully from Alberta. Please stop lying about what happened in this city.


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

It's impossible to have a discussion about anything when people throw around ignorant and baseless accusations of lying.


----------



## brihard (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> It's impossible to have a discussion about anything when people throw around ignorant and baseless accusations of lying.


If you don’t want to be called out for lying, then don’t lie, especially when others can show receipts. If you’re unable to participate in the conversation on that basis, it’s no loss to the rest of us.


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> If you don’t want to be called out for lying, then don’t lie, especially when others can show receipts. If you’re unable to participate in the conversation on that basis, it’s no loss to the rest of us.


You are as ignorant as they come and I'm done engaging with you.


----------



## brihard (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> You are as ignorant as they come and I'm done engaging with you.


That’s fine. If you continue to post nonsense I’ll continue to challenge it and correct the record for others who may be participating in the discussion, whether you want to play or not.


----------



## Kat Stevens (24 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Wrong. The EA was, so far as I can tell, irrelevant to the role I personally played in the whole thing. If the commission finds it to have been justified, or not, I’ll accept either decision without preference. I’m simply sad either way that what happened in my city happened. It’s not to me to justify the EA; I have no dog in that fight and I remain open minded to either outcome and interested in the results of the judicial inquiry.
> 
> In any case, you’re changing the subject and moving the goalposts. Your claim was, and I quote, “The convoy didn't shut any businesses down. The city/police did (for covid reasons or presumably to deny services to the convoy).”
> 
> ...


Is there a tit that goes with this tat? You seem to have plenty to say about western alienation For someone who’s never lived it.


----------



## brihard (24 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Is there a tit that goes with this tat? You seem to have plenty to say about western alienation For someone who’s never lived it.


I didn’t say anything about western alienation and I’m not picking on Alberta. He has told us he’s in Alberta, which, to the best of my knowledge, means he’s not in Ottawa. His glee around the whole thing is readily apparent. If he was in PEI, Nunavut, or British Columbia - or even Pembroke or Kingston - I would have named that place instead in an otherwise identical sentence.

My issue is with QV’s deliberate dishonesty, not with which province CAF has chosen to post him to.


----------



## IKnowNothing (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Peaceful demonstrations are fine.  But destroying property, carrying weapons dangerous to the public peace (like pick axe handles), resisting the enforcement of court orders and blockading other people and businesses from continuing their day to day business is way over the line.  They are not peaceful, they are breaking several laws, infringing on other people's rights, and they are bordering on the definition of a riot.  In my opinion this type of incident needs to be dealt with swiftly and aggressively from the outset, otherwise it will just last weeks and weeks with more damages down the road.  The demonstrators (or rather rioters) should learn to use the proper processes set out to deal with their grievances - court and appeals if necessary.


I was curious what a search of the word blockade would yield. 
Interesting change in perspective.


----------



## Remius (24 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> I was curious what a search of the word blockade would yield.


Wow. Lol.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> You are as ignorant as they come and I'm done engaging with you.


Brihard and I are extremely far apart on our ideologies, but he is correct on this.   Sorry, but if some asshole sat in front of my house all night honking his horn, and the local police were too mismanaged to do something about it, I'd eventually be out there with a baseball bat et al.  [temporary insanity Your Honour]

And I do think the EA was hopelessly unnecessary, so you can't try and drop that on me.


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> I was curious what a search of the word blockade would yield.
> Interesting change in perspective.


We are comparing my thoughts on the EA enactment to Caledonia now? Neither event warranted the EA.


----------



## QV (24 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Brihard and I are extremely far apart on our ideologies, but he is correct on this.   Sorry, but if some asshole sat in front of my house all night honking his horn, and the local police were too mismanaged to do something about it, I'd eventually be out there with a baseball bat et al.  [temporary insanity Your Honour]
> 
> And I do think the EA was hopelessly unnecessary, so you can't try and drop that on me.


What’s he right about, exactly?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> What’s he right about, exactly?


Lets just say that you have a very vivid imagination when it suits what you need to believe.


----------



## Remius (24 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> We are comparing my thoughts on the EA enactment to Caledonia now? Neither event warranted the EA.


I think it’s more about your view of protests.  Seems to have evolved based on team preferences.

Agreed that neither needed the EA.   I also agree with what you said back in 2006.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Brihard and I are extremely far apart on our ideologies, but he is correct on this.   Sorry, but if some asshole sat in front of my house all night honking his horn, and the local police were too mismanaged to do something about it, I'd eventually be out there with a baseball bat et al.  [temporary insanity Your Honour]
> 
> And I do think the EA was hopelessly unnecessary, so you can't try and drop that on me.



So I think we are seeing the EA was uncalled for.  The jury is still out I guess.

We have to be careful though. A right to protest is pretty important for a democracy.  Whether we agree with the protests causes or not.

But I get your point, I can get pretty irrational when I am pissed off for long enough.  Thanks Ma and Da for the Irish Ginger genes.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So I think we are seeing the EA was uncalled for.  The jury is still out I guess.
> 
> We have to be careful though. A right to protest is pretty important for a democracy.  Whether we agree with the protests causes or not.
> 
> But I get your point, I can get pretty irrational when I am pissed off for long enough.  Thanks Ma and Da for the Irish Ginger genes.


The Convoy Protestors just took the style of civil disobedience used by other groups:  #IdleNoMore, #BLM, #MeToo, and made it their own.

It works and is highly effective.  Ultimately, the immense success it was is a sign of extremely weak political leadership.

Imagine if it was an actual violent/revolutionary movement though?  I think our security forces would be very quickly overwhelmed.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Convoy Protestors just took the style of civil disobedience used by other groups:  #IdleNoMore, #BLM, #MeToo, and made it their own.
> 
> It works and is highly effective.  Ultimately, the immense success it was is a sign of extremely weak political leadership.
> 
> Imagine if it was an actual violent/revolutionary movement though?  I think our security forces would be very quickly overwhelmed.



You would surmise it was successful ? 

Not arguing if it was or not as I am sold on its meeting its objectives or not.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You would surmise it was successful ?
> 
> Not arguing if it was or not as I am sold on its meeting its objectives or not.


I think it was highly successful as a protest movement and it achieved three things:

1.  It made a mockery of Government elites.  The Federal, Provincial and Municipal Government's were made to look like fools who couldn't run a lemonade stand.  We are getting testimony right now that confirms this 😉

2.  It caused the resignation of Erin O'Toole and prevented a Conservative pivot to the centre.  It ensured the next Conservative Leader would be a populist, enter Pierre Polliviere.

3.  It put a halt to anymore Government plans for further pandemic restrictions and caused Government's to quietly reverse some of their earlier restrictions.  Remember when Québec was going to "tax" the unvaxxed 😉 for example.  Any new Government plans around restrictions or mandates would be much harder to implement politically.

These, IMO, were the three major achievements of the Freedom Convoy.


----------



## Remius (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I think it was highly successful as a protest movement and it achieved three things:
> 
> 1.  It made a mockery of Government elites.  The Federal, Provincial and Municipal Government's were made to look like fools who couldn't run a lemonade stand.  We are getting testimony right now that confirms this 😉


To be honest it’s looks like it was more the local authorities that looked like fools.  Not sure it made the feds look as bad as you think.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> 2.  It caused the resignation of Erin O'Toole and prevented a Conservative pivot to the centre.  It ensured the next Conservative Leader would be a populist, enter Pierre Polliviere.


Did it?  Or was he already a target after losing the election.  Calls for a review and change were happening before Christmas.  His days were numbered.  Convoy or not.  His support for a carbon tax, deficit spending among other things and a move to the Center is what precipitated his fall.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> 3.  It put a halt to anymore Government plans for further pandemic restrictions and caused Government's to quietly reverse some of their earlier restrictions.  Remember when Québec was going to "tax" the unvaxxed 😉 for example.  Any new Government plans around restrictions or mandates would be much harder to implement politically.


Restrictions were already being removed and or planned to be.  The tax plan in Quebec was never going to fly legally and a Legault knew that.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> These, IMO, were the three major achievements of the Freedom Convoy.


I think that is what they think.

My thoughts is that the convoy overreached and allowed themselves to painted as extremist and occupiers looking to overturn the government.  They lost the message.  It was never about mandates or truckers and it was revealed in short order.

The fact that 2/3rds of Canadians approved of the EA (regardless if it was wrong to so) is a testament to that.

The fact that Legault and Ford (both had the strictest COVID measures in Canada) were re elected with strong majorities should be an indication that people were on board with necessary measures.  Or could care less about measures and that this thing was really about politics and not mandates.


----------



## RangerRay (25 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So I think we are seeing the EA was uncalled for.  The jury is still out I guess.
> 
> We have to be careful though. A right to protest is pretty important for a democracy.  Whether we agree with the protests causes or not.
> 
> But I get your point, I can get pretty irrational when I am pissed off for long enough.  Thanks Ma and Da for the Irish Ginger genes.


Except this wasn’t just a protest. This was an illegal occupation of a significant portion of the capital where lawless activity was left unchecked for weeks. Businesses and residents were harassed and made to feel unsafe in their community.

Did it warrant the use of the EA?  So far, it looks like it did not, but we will see what comes out of this inquiry.  I am skeptical, but am open to be convinced if the government brings receipts. So far, I haven’t seen them. 

Other occupations were smaller in scope. Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have been shut down long before they got to the occupation stage as well. But to compare what happened in Ottawa to a regular protest where people wave their signs, say unpleasant things then go home is wrong.


----------



## RangerRay (25 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Did it?  Or was he already a target after losing the election.  Calls for a review and change were happening before Christmas.  His days were numbered.  Convoy or not.  His support for a carbon tax, deficit spending among other things and a move to the Center is what precipitated his fall.


Personally, I was willing to give him another shot. He came close early in the campaign and I thought he could seal the deal after a few more years of PMJT. Where he lost it for me was when the convoy showed up and he took every conceivable position in the span of three days. That’s when I knew he lost the plot.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (25 Oct 2022)

Convoy persons and supporters were from all levels of the pay scale in Canada. 
The welfare person to the highest income brackets in the Country ( or at least in the Ottawa Valley)
It give people a sense of belonging to something bigger than them and a hope they could affect change in the way Canada works and how we live.  They did not even know what they were protesting, anti mask orders and health orders are under the Province and Local authorities not a Federal matter unless it is there property ( example buildings leased or owned ). 

Lower level people in the Ottawa Valley were suddenly Convoy control persons ( what ever that is ), they had signage and decals on cars and trucks showing they were Official Convoy persons. I am sure not all of them were 100% supporters and in actual control of the day  to day message of the convoy. 

The convoy PR people over estimated their size and numbers. If it was true 50 000  to 100 000 trucks etc they would still in Western Ontario driving to Ottawa before they were removed. They were claiming 1 in 7 truckers in Canada were on this convoy. ( 700 000 trucks are in Canada).
Convoy was made up of a lot smaller trucks and personal vehicles from what I saw drive by my window at work. There were a lot of big rigs, but no where near the numbers they were claiming to have coming from the West. Police did not seem to see the numbers coming till it was too late.

 The problems in Ottawa were felt right thru the Ottawa Valley west of the city. Police services were affected because most of the small towns are policed by contracted OPP officers and they were deployed to the Ottawa region.  One police officer I had personally dealings with was the only Officer on duty for Renfrew and Arnprior, his back up was Kanata or Pembroke, or Killaloe.  People were trapped by lack of freedom to drive in the Ottawa area.  Almost every day ( still some days now) there was a group of pick up trucks, big rigs driving up and down the 417 ( Queensway) bearing flags, air horns,  flashing lights,  and anything else to draw attention to them.  ( Some are still protesting on weekends outside the city area and delaying traffic, forget where I saw them at intersection parked honking at passing cars asking for support).  Commuters from outside  of Ottawa had to face the traffic delays which are bad most days, then the convoy people would come out and drive super slow to slow traffic down even more. Added 45 to 75 minutes home for me some nights. Plus delays getting to work, then Police shut down roads to divert traffic away from the downtown core , adding more delays.

Ottawa for such a large geographical city and region has a very small Police Services.  There was no way they could of moved the protestors out without help from other police services. 1480 Officers of all ranks for an area of 2790 km² with a population of 1Million.   Toronto is 630.2 km² with a  police service of 5500 officers of all ranks with a population of  6 plus million.  New York city has 783.8 km² with  35 000 plus officers of all ranks but a population of  8.38 million persons. Ontario population is 14.57 million persons.  Just so numbers could be compared equally. Ottawa police were out sized and out weighed and out of man power. Ottawa police requested 1800 more officers and staff to deal with the convoy. If this was a gun fight they would of been out gunned.  Without the Act being used, not sure if they could of gotten the numbers required to move out the protesters. 

Tow trucks were a tool they were lacking, tow truck companies were not willing to do the work because of fear of being put out of work by their clients.  Not sure if any police service in North America has their own heavy wreckers. The tow trucks used that I saw on the news media were OC Transpo ( local public transit ) wreckers they use to tow broken down buses with, with Ottawa Police stickers over the OC Transpo markings. 
Very few local tow companies wanted to be seen towing anything. One tow truck was asked by the Convoy people to move something and he got death threats and loss of business because he was seen towing a trailer away at the request of Convoy Control People. 

One of the large truck stops west of Ottawa did not want the convoy staying at his business worried it would offend local people and cause loss of business with local trucking companies because they would be delayed fueling or look as if they were joining the convoy.

Big companies and little companies supported it with trucks and equipment.  But also people rented trucks ( Uhauls ) to be part of the convoy only to have them towed away and impounded ( how much does that cost?)

No matter what side you take personally, you are going to feel let down by these hearings depending how it rules and what it publishes when all is said and done.


Convoy people in my own opinion caused the following changes, they took down a Police Chief,  took down a party leadership,  changed how policing is done in Ottawa now.  Changed how the City, National Capital Commission, RCMP, OPP , OPS, The Parliament Police now react to protesters, peaceful or not so peaceful. The aftermath of the Convoy protest, has turned streets into no traffic zones, you see a more heavy police presence on the Parliament Hill.  It has become more like the US with traffic controls, crowd controls and no go zones.

All this cost money and takes the freedoms of the average Canadian to enjoy the Ottawa historical areas and Parliament zone. 

Only people to make money on this was the hotels, police booked hotels all over the city and the protesters also booked rooms,  caters for police, and other staffers meals.  Gas stations selling fuel to keep the trucks running, and police running. 
No one won this


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> To be honest it’s looks like it was more the local authorities that looked like fools.  Not sure it made the feds look as bad as you think.


They all looked like fools.  Especially in light of the fact that the EA was, at this point in time, unnecessary.  Decisions and statements made by Politicians at the Federal level were contrary to the actual intelligence they received from Police.



Remius said:


> Did it?  Or was he already a target after losing the election.  Calls for a review and change were happening before Christmas.  His days were numbered.  Convoy or not.  His support for a carbon tax, deficit spending among other things and a move to the Center is what precipitated his fall.


He was already unpopular but the convoy was the final nail in the coffin. 



Remius said:


> Restrictions were already being removed and or planned to be.  The tax plan in Quebec was never going to fly legally and a Legault knew that.
> 
> I think that is what they think.
> 
> ...


Someone can be re-elected, the most popular candidate, and still change their previously held political position.

The convoy changed Government's calculus.  Feel free to deny it if you wish, you've shown that you're pretty partisan on here and we all know what stripe of tie you wear, so I don't ever expect you to agree.



RangerRay said:


> *Except this wasn’t just a protest. This was an illegal occupation of a significant portion of the capital where lawless activity was left unchecked for weeks.* Businesses and residents were harassed and made to feel unsafe in their community.











RangerRay said:


> Did it warrant the use of the EA?  So far, it looks like it did not, but we will see what comes out of this inquiry.  I am skeptical, but am open to be convinced if the government brings receipts. So far, I haven’t seen them.
> 
> Other occupations were smaller in scope. Don’t get me wrong, I think they should have been shut down long before they got to the occupation stage as well. But to compare what happened in Ottawa to a regular protest where people wave their signs, say unpleasant things then go home is wrong.


Protests are by their very definition supposed to be uncomfortable.

You're upset and uncomfortable?  Good! That's the entire point.

The Convoy Protestors just learned from others:

Indigenous Groups
MeToo
IdleNoMore
BLM
Occupy Wallstreet
Alt Left /Alt Right


















They now know what works and what doesn't and how to achieve the effects they want.  Whether you think their concerns are legitimate or not is inconsequential, they don't even care if you like them 😉


----------



## Remius (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> They all looked like fools.  Especially in light of the fact that the EA was, at this point in time, unnecessary.  Decisions and statements made by Politicians at the Federal level were contrary to the actual intelligence they received from Police.
> 
> 
> He was already unpopular but the convoy was the final nail in the coffin.
> ...


----------



## Remius (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The convoy changed Government's calculus. Feel free to deny it if you wish, you've shown that you're pretty partisan on here and we all know what stripe of tie you wear, so I don't ever expect you to agree.


I’m happy to discuss differences of opinion but why don’t you refrain from making bad assumptions just because I don’t buy into extreme views on one side or another.  This is why I likely won’t vote conservative next time,  no place for moderates it seems.   Your statement only reinforces that.


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Convoy Protestors just took the style of civil disobedience used by other groups:  #IdleNoMore, #BLM, #MeToo, and made it their own.
> 
> It works and is highly effective.  Ultimately, the immense success it was is a sign of extremely weak political leadership.
> 
> Imagine if it was an actual violent/revolutionary movement though?  I think our security forces would be very quickly overwhelmed.


Idle no more had a long running, peaceful protest on Victoria Island that made their point without shutting down traffic. I happened to chat with some of them one day while walking across the bridge; we had a pretty calm and civil discussion, and carried on with my day. They managed to make their point without pissing off the whole city and was much more effective at getting the message to the general populace.

The marches etc are all on a permit with a known route that still allows you to get around it, with controls in place if emergency vehicles need to get through. Ottawa routinely gets protests/demonstrations of 10k+ people and it's no issue. The Freedumb idiots didn't do any of that and went out of their way to piss off locals and cause chaos for the 'Laurentian elites', but really it was just the people trying to get through their day impacted.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m happy to discuss differences of opinion but why don’t you refrain from making bad assumptions just because I don’t buy into extreme views on one side or another.  This is why I likely won’t vote conservative next time,  no place for moderates it seems.   Your statement only reinforces that.


Just calling it like I see it.  I personally think all Canadian politicians are scum and hold no allegiances to any of our parties. 


Navy_Pete said:


> Idle no more had a long running, peaceful protest on Victoria Island that made their point without shutting down traffic. I happened to chat with some of them one day while walking across the bridge; we had a pretty calm and civil discussion, and carried on with my day. They managed to make their point without pissing off the whole city and was much more effective at getting the message to the general populace.
> 
> The marches etc are all on a permit with a known route that still allows you to get around it, with controls in place if emergency vehicles need to get through. Ottawa routinely gets protests/demonstrations of 10k+ people and it's no issue. The Freedumb idiots didn't do any of that and went out of their way to piss off locals and cause chaos for the 'Laurentian elites', but really it was just the people trying to get through their day impacted.


I think the message I was trying to convey completely went over your head. 

As for the Freedumb Idiots going out of their way to piss off locals, that was the entire point of the protest.  

In your groupings & tasks matrix, "piss off locals in Ottawa" was probably an assigned task.


----------



## lenaitch (25 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Ottawa routinely gets protests/demonstrations of 10k+ people and it's no issue


I would think there is hardly a weekend that goes by that there isn't some protest, parade, memorial, celebration, etc. in the downtown/Hill area.



FormerHorseGuard said:


> Some are still protesting on weekends outside the city area and delaying traffic, forget where I saw them at intersection parked honking at passing cars asking for support


We still have a handful that drive around with their vehicles (invariably pickups) emblazon with their freedom message and seem to meet for coffee at a Tim's.  Our daughter's city has a small rally every weekend, starting a Tim's of course, where they convoy around for a few kilometers then go on with their day.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> As for the Freedumb Idiots going out of their way to piss off locals, that was the entire point of the protest.



Looks like it worked.









						Ottawa Convoy Class Action
					






					www.ottawaconvoyclassaction.ca
				






lenaitch said:


> We still have a handful that drive around with their vehicles (invariably pickups) emblazon with their freedom message and seem to meet for coffee at a Tim's.  Our daughter's city has a small rally every weekend, starting a Tim's of course, where they convoy around for a few kilometers then go on with their day.



Reminds me of Marlon Brando, way back in 1953:

"Hey Johnny! What are You rebelling against?"

Brando: "What do you got?"


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Oct 2022)

Whether the "populist" sub-faction of the CPC is moderate or not depends on whether you identify with the "bosses" or the "workers".  I'm pretty sure Joe Average thinks he's moderate.

The bar has been reset for protests which occupy, inconvenience, etc.  See if it lasts.


----------



## RangerRay (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Just calling it like I see it.  I personally think all Canadian politicians are scum and hold no allegiances to any of our parties.
> 
> I think the message I was trying to convey completely went over your head.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure how pissing off the locals who have no say over government policy other than voting for MP’s/MLA’s is going to help “the cause” (whatever that was).  All I see is that the locals will be more apt to vote for more harder line anti-right candidates.  They won’t go “you’re right!  I’ll vote Conservative next time!”  

Regardless of whether enacting the EA was legitimate or not, I am sure the locals are still in favour of it being enacted (as are 75% of Canadians, last I saw).  All they care about was that the trash was finally taken out. 

As I said before, previous occupations pale in comparison to what we saw in Ottawa. I was critical of authorities for letting those continue for as long as they did as well. 

If liberals (in the broad sense) won’t enforce the law, the people will elect fascists who will.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Oct 2022)

Enforcement isn't the issue.  Some things are not really enforced much if at all, without much grief.  Equal enforcement - meaning, same customary practices applied to everyone - is the vital principle.


----------



## Haggis (25 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I would think there is hardly a weekend that goes by that there isn't some protest, parade, memorial, celebration, etc. in the downtown/Hill area.


On September 25 this year there was a loud protest just south of Parliament Hill to denounce the Iranian government over the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of the Morality Police a week before.  This protest coincided (maybe intentionally) with the Canadian Police and Peace Officer's Memorial parade on the Hill.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> All they care about was that the trash was finally taken out.



Doubt they will be missed.


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Just calling it like I see it.  I personally think all Canadian politicians are scum and hold no allegiances to any of our parties.
> 
> I think the message I was trying to convey completely went over your head.
> 
> ...


There are 1 million people in Ottawa. The vast majority are not politicians, or high level public servants that had anything to do with the things they are angry about. Frankly most of the things they were angry about were either provincial rules, or US government border control on letting foreigners into their country, so they weren't even in the right city.

Pissing off 1M people to thumb your nose at a few hundred is just idiotic, and the people that they wanted to get the message to are also the ones that can just afford to go to the summer estate. The ones they actually impacted are the ones trying to get by and make sure rent is paid.

The whole protest gets shallower and stupider the more you poke at it.

But sure, great job guys. Woo hoo, go you. You made a real difference, for sure.


----------



## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> On September 25 this year there was a loud protest just south of Parliament Hill to denounce the Iranian government over the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of the Morality Police a week before.  This protest coincided (maybe intentionally) with the Canadian Police and Peace Officer's Memorial parade on the Hill.


It’s not a weekend in Ottawa without a protest. I’m inclined to think that was coincidental; the Iranian community was reacting in real time to events on the ground in Iran. They’ve had other protests here since and, to the best of my knowledge, have consistently been respectful and law abiding. I’m not aware of any particular or intentional disrespect shown to police or law enforcement in the course of this series of Iranian protests.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> They won’t go “you’re right!  I’ll vote Conservative next time!”



I wonder if far-sighted Conservative politicians will embrace, or attempt to distance themselves, from the "freedom" community come next election.


----------



## Furniture (25 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> There are 1 million people in Ottawa. The vast majority are not politicians, or high level public servants that had anything to do with the things they are angry about. Frankly most of the things they were angry about were either provincial rules, or US government border control on letting foreigners into their country, so they weren't even in the right city.
> 
> Pissing off 1M people to thumb your nose at a few hundred is just idiotic, and the people that they wanted to get the message to are also the ones that can just afford to go to the summer estate. The ones they actually impacted are the ones trying to get by and make sure rent is paid.
> 
> ...


They didn't piss off 1M people... I love how people ignore that there were lots of Ottawa residents who supported the protests, or didn't care much because it didn't impact them at all. 

You're also forgetting that much of the support seemed to be rural Canadians who don't particularly care that a bunch of urbanites think slightly less of them now.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> They didn't piss off 1M people... I love how people ignore that there were lots of Ottawa residents who supported the protests, or didn't care much because it didn't impact them at all.



That's good. Hopefully, they won't the bill.









						Egan: Dear truckers, hope you enjoyed your stay — here's the police bill
					

In a six-hour meeting of Ottawa city council Monday, there was one potentially explosive motion that didn't get a great deal of attention.




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> There are 1 million people in Ottawa. The vast majority are not politicians, or high level public servants that had anything to do with the things they are angry about. Frankly most of the things they were angry about were either provincial rules, or US government border control on letting foreigners into their country, so they weren't even in the right city.
> 
> Pissing off 1M people to thumb your nose at a few hundred is just idiotic, and the people that they wanted to get the message to are also the ones that can just afford to go to the summer estate. The ones they actually impacted are the ones trying to get by and make sure rent is paid.
> 
> ...


At least they got off their asses and did something to voice their displeasure, not like the other 38.9 million apathetic fucks in this country who just roll over, bite the pillow, and take it dry.


----------



## Furniture (25 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> That's good. Hopefully, they won't the bill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, as long as they bill every other protestor that adds cost to the city as well, otherwise it's just more gas on the kindling.


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> That's good. Hopefully, they won't the bill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear Ottawa,
 I totally remember sending a cheque for that, keep watching your mailbox.
Love, 
"The Truckers"


----------



## Haggis (25 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s not a weekend in Ottawa without a protest. I’m inclined to think that was coincidental; the Iranian community was reacting in real time to events on the ground in Iran. They’ve had other protests here since and, to the best of my knowledge, have consistently been respectful and law abiding. I’m not aware of any particular or intentional disrespect shown to police or law enforcement in the course of this series of Iranian protests.


Consider it an observation only, but I think OPS dropped the ball by allowing that one to run concurrently and so close to CPPOM.  Later in the day, no problem.

Concordantly, it would've been nice if someone from OPS had informed rhe CPPOM organizers so a "heads up" could've been passed to the participants.   I was in the ranks behind the OPP. There were a lot of nervous LEOs on the Hill.


----------



## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> Consider it an observation only, but I think OPS dropped the ball by allowing that one to run concurrently and so close to CPPOM.  Later in the day, no problem.
> 
> Concordantly, it would've been nice if someone from OPS had informed rhe CPPOM organizers so a "heads up" could've been passed to the participants.   I was in the ranks behind the OPP. There were a lot of nervous LEOs on the Hill.


But what were they doing that so offends the law that they should not “be allowed” to hold that demonstration at that time and place? We don’t get to shut down a protests just because our feelings are hurt. And, bluntly, after how miserably OPS failed in February, the optics of that would be terrible in just about every way you could imagine. While I agree that someone could have alerted them in advance, it may well be that it simply wasn't noticed by anyone until too late. In any case, trying to shut that demo down because it was near to a law enforcement memorial would have one poorly. Good way to drive a further wedge between the police/law enforcement and a population that has had little reason to hold us in high esteem this past year…


----------



## Haggis (25 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> But what were they doing that so offends the law that they should not “be allowed” to hold that demonstration at that time and place? We don’t get to shut down a protests just because our feelings are hurt. And, bluntly, after how miserably OPS failed in February, the optics of that would be terrible in just about every way you could imagine. While I agree that someone could have alerted them in advance, it may well be that it simply wasn't noticed by anyone until too late. In any case, trying to shut that demo down because it was near to a law enforcement memorial would have one poorly. Good way to drive a further wedge between the police/law enforcement and a population that has had little reason to hold us in high esteem this past year…


I never inferred the Iranian protest should've been shut down, just moved to the right by an hour or so, or routed away from CPPOM.

OPS knew the date, time and place of CPPOM months ago. Comparing that to the permit request for the Iranian protest and saying "we'll issue you a permit for noon, but not 10:00 AM", wouldn't have offended anyone.


----------



## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> I never inferred the Iranian protest should've been shut down, just moved to the right by an hour or so, or routed away from CPPOM.
> 
> OPS knew the date, time and place of CPPOM months ago. Comparing that to the permit request for the Iranian protest and saying "we'll issue you a permit for noon, but not 10:00 AM", wouldn't have offended anyone.


Yeah, perhaps. Though I don’t believe it’s OPS that does permitting, rather the city.


----------



## lenaitch (25 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> That's good. Hopefully, they won't the bill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And good luck passing a motion to invoke a section of a provincial statute that isn't even in force yet.  They'd be better off jumping on whatever lawsuit is floating around.

I agree that this would be a slippery slope, particularly for cities like Ottawa and Toronto.  If they pick and choose they are leaving themselves wide open for criticism.  Besides, in many cases, who do you invoice?  



brihard said:


> Yeah, perhaps. Though I don’t believe it’s OPS that does permitting, rather the city.


True, but no doubt a copy is passed to OPS for input.  I would imagine there is a full-time position within the Service just for this purpose.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2022)

I've never been to a political protest. If I have a concern I can call, write or visit my councillor, MPP or MP here in the ward. They were elected to represent me at City Hall, Queen's Park or Ottawa. 

I know. That's probably un- something or other.


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Oct 2022)

Un...realistic?
Un...believable?
Un...possible?
Un...apologetically tongue in cheek.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You would surmise it was successful ?




If you're looking at it through the lens of the handful of people stupidly talking about arresting the government or whatever then no they didn't arrest Trudeau and force a regime change. Big fail.

So what did they do?

-Shut down the capital's downtown. For good or for ill they taught the police, military, and other organizations some hard lessons. Lucky for Ottawa the protestors were non-violent (contrary to the best narrative attempts).
-Put on display the governments lame attempt to scare the public with "Nazis! In Canada!".  No real surprise here, standard Liberal SOP.
-Put massive police ineptitude on display. Police grunts with out to lunch bosses are probably appreciating their high paid dumb-ass bosses getting called out.
-Reminded police (and others) to watch what they say over social media and in "private" chat rooms. Called out the Musical Horsey dummies.
-Put Ottawa politician/city council ineptitude on display, arguably brought about change?
-Highlighted a lot of anti-Trudeau and anti-Liberal sentiment across Canada contrary to narrative that it's just a few disenfranchised people. No big impact here. People have PTSD from flags now?
-Reminded us about shadow OICs.
-Shows Canadians how quickly they'll become terrorists for wrong-speak and wrong-action, like donating $50 gas money to protestors. Remember those stories how most of the funding came from the US and overseas?
-Another display of the governments scare tactics to justify arguably heavy handed actions because it's shadowy "for national security". I guess those super serious threats just disappeared. Speaking of which whatever happened to that all-around-defense HQ site of scary looking men in a parking lot a few KMs away from down town?
-Showed us how the Emergencies Act was super duper important and there was no end in the forseeable future, until the LBC got wind the Senate wasn't going to support, then all of a sudden the EA wasn't required anymore. Had the LPC believed the senate would have supported it the EA might still be in effect now.


----------



## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> And good luck passing a motion to invoke a section of a provincial statute that isn't even in force yet.  They'd be better off jumping on whatever lawsuit is floating around.
> 
> I agree that this would be a slippery slope, particularly for cities like Ottawa and Toronto.  If they pick and choose they are leaving themselves wide open for criticism.  Besides, in many cases, who do you invoice?
> 
> ...


Realistically, a municipal bylaw permit isn’t a particularly enforceable mechanism in the case of a lawful and peaceful demonstration. A city permit will never be the difference between police disallowing a protest or not. Lawful free expression is critical. Municipal special events permits are a convenience for the city more than anything. They serve more to help regulate and plan for special events like entertainment and cultural events more than anything.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> If you're looking at it through the lens of the handful of people stupidly talking about arresting the government or whatever then no they didn't arrest Trudeau and force a regime change. Big fail.
> 
> So what did they do?
> 
> ...


I almost forgot about these clowns 🤣


----------



## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Speaking of which whatever happened to that all-around-defense HQ site of scary looking men in a parking lot a few KMs away from down town?


300 Coventry Road. Objectively, there was a lot of potential danger there based on some of the individuals who were hanging out, and things they had said. It was bypassed and picqueted on the Friday and Saturday; hard cordons prevented anyone at Coventry from bringing vehicles in to reinforce the downtown protest. Saturday’s clearing of downtown broke the protest’s back and resolve, and a lot of people at Coventry departed when they saw vehicles being seized downtown. When police did go in they went in with a pretty heavy posture to deter bullshit, and it worked. It pretty much melted away. I believe that had the Coventry Road site been moved on before the main protest site, while they were still all fired up, it could have been quite different. Also possible that a few people simply would have been all talk regardless of the circumstances.


----------



## TacticalTea (25 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> The fact that 2/3rds of Canadians approved of the EA (regardless if it was wrong to so) is a testament to that.


Troubling.
Disappointing as it may be, that up to two thirds of Canadians are unfamiliar with the risks that represents for our collective rights and freedoms is unsurprising.


_Speaking generally:_

I agree with the Ottawans... Ottawites... whatever as the case may be, that the disturbance caused by the protesters was excessive. I thought the same of some of the BLM/Antifa rioters in the US, and also of Jan 6. Based on our resident expert Brihard's testimony, the city and province should and could have acted much earlier, much stronger.

In my view, whatever may be presented at the inquiry is immaterial to my ability to make a judgement on the validity of the EA. The fact of the matter is, at the time it was invoked, the Government failed to make a case for it. It relied on emotional and dubious arguments such as the specter of Nazism and foreign influence (ahem Putin's playbook ahem). 

The inquiry, then, is the LPC's trial.




_Unrelated:_


Remius said:


> The tax plan in Quebec was never going to fly *legally* and a Legault knew that.


How so? It's not related to linguistic or aboriginal rights so Quebec wouldn't shy away from invoking either article 1 or 33 of the Charter if it found it *politically* necessary.


_Edit: structure._


----------



## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Troubling.
> 
> _Speaking generally:_
> 
> ...


A province doesn’t ‘invoke’ S.1 of the _Charter_. S.1 is simply a thing that they know is there, and which they can hope will allow a law to be upheld. S.1 isn’t a trump card the way S.33 is.

As for public support for the EA, that’s potentially politically and electorally consequential, but it means nothing legally. The commission will be issuing findings on the factual circumstances leading up to the invocation of the EA. They won’t be ruling on whether it was lawfully applied. It will essentially be a massive fact finding and lessons learned exercise.

The actual Order in Council establishing the POEC’s mandate is here: https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/files/documents/Order-in-Council-Décret-2022-0392.pdf


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> A province doesn’t ‘invoke’ S.1 of the _Charter_. S.1 is simply a thing that they know is there, and which they can hope will allow a law to be upheld. S.1 isn’t a trump card the way S.33 is.


That's pedantic. S1 is what the government would use to justify infringement of rights if it need not or could not use S33. Both are used for the same effect (getting around Charter rights), just with different rules.



brihard said:


> As for public support for the EA, that’s potentially politically and electorally consequential, but it means nothing legally.


The EA itself is legally meaningful. Public support (alternatively, absence of political consequences) for EAs makes them more likely. Ergo, public support for EAs is consequential with regards to our rights and freedoms, as it pushes us down a slippery slope.

It's the same logic, I believe, that explains why Quebec has used S33 (while we're on the topic!) *so extensively* while other provinces have *not at all**.* Once you get the ball rolling, it doesn't stop.


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## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> That's pedantic. S1 is what the government would use to justify infringement of rights if it need not or could not use S33. Both are used for the same effect (getting around Charter rights), just with different rules.



No. S. 33 lets them ‘get around Charter rights’. S.1 is a tool the courts use to interpret what those rights mean. A _legislature_ can _invoke_ S.33 in the context of specific legislation, to allow that legislation to operate _despite and notwithstanding_ specific Charter rights (specifically Ss. 2, and 7-15). Conversely, S.1 is a section used by the _courts_, via certain legal _tests_ (particularly that established in _Oakes_ to _interpret the extent and manner of applicability_ of certain Charter rights in the context of a specific set of facts. 

More simply, S.33 lets a legislature say “yeah, we don’t care, those sections don’t apply to this law”, and S.1 guides a court in determining “in this particular case, the way this law impacts certain rights is or is not reasonable, because…”


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> No. S. 33 lets them ‘get around Charter rights’. S.1 is a tool the courts use to interpret what those rights mean. A _legislature_ can _invoke_ S.33 in the context of specific legislation, to allow that legislation to operate _despite and notwithstanding_ specific Charter rights (specifically Ss. 2, and 7-15). Conversely, S.1 is a section used by the _courts_, via certain legal _tests_ (particularly that established in _Oakes_ to _interpret the extent and manner of applicability_ of certain Charter rights in the context of a specific set of facts.
> 
> More simply, S.33 lets a legislature say “yeah, we don’t care, those sections don’t apply to this law”, and S.1 guides a court in determining “in this particular case, the way this law impacts certain rights is or is not reasonable, because…”


Yes, I'm familiar with all that, but I remain unconvinced that this goes beyond semantics. The politicians, in the process of creation of law, will ponder how the courts will react, and when their law is judicially reviewed, will *bring forth arguments that aim to satisfy the requirements of S1*.

*Bolded, coloured*: which I abbreviated, for the sake of brevity (now thoroughly defeated), as ''invoke''.
~Anyhoo~


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Yes, I'm familiar with all that, but I remain unconvinced that this goes beyond semantics. The politicians, in the process of creation of law, will ponder how the courts will react, and when their law is judicially reviewed, will *bring forth arguments that aim to satisfy the requirements of S1*.
> 
> *Bolded, coloured*: which I abbreviated, for the sake of brevity (now thoroughly defeated), as ''invoke''.
> ~Anyhoo~


Ok, let me frame this in a different way then: S.1 helps the courts sharpen the blurry edges of Charter rights, a little bit at a time, when they have to decide how they apply in real settings. S.33 lets legislatures acknowledge and blow right through the boundaries that certain Charter rights would normally put up, when those legislatures pass a new law.

Sorry but I can’t at all agree at your ‘semantics’ dismissal. Ss. 1 and 33 are very, very different things, and apply very differently.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Oct 2022)

Refreshing a military angle ....


Humphrey Bogart said:


> (...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


... here's the latest .....


> A Canadian soldier who has publicly spoken out against the forced removal of hundreds of unvaccinated Armed Forces members is facing more charges.
> 
> Warrant Officer James Topp is now facing six counts of conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline after the army reservist’s commanders laid four new charges against him last week.
> 
> ...


If link doesn't work, text also attached for purposes of research, private study or education under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's _Copyright Act_.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Realistically, a municipal bylaw permit isn’t a particularly enforceable mechanism in the case of a lawful and peaceful demonstration. A city permit will never be the difference between police disallowing a protest or not. Lawful free expression is critical. Municipal special events permits are a convenience for the city more than anything. They serve more to help regulate and plan for special events like entertainment and cultural events more than anything.


I wasn't viewing Ottawa council's attempt to invoke undeclared legislation as an effort to limit or prevent demonstrations; but a rather amateurish attempt to get someone to pay for them.  Agree that 'parade permits' et al are primarily a planning and coordination tool.  Whether a parade, demonstration, etc. is 'sanctioned' or 'unsanctioned' is mostly in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## mariomike (26 Oct 2022)

Whatever one's politics,









						Opinion | Why you’ll help foot the bill for billions lost due to Ottawa protests — whatever your views
					

The so-called ‘working-class protest’ in Ottawa hurt the working class the most, and we’re all going to pick up the tab for the damage done, Armine Yalnizyan writes.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Remius (26 Oct 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585263000579080195
Some interesting nuggets in this one.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (26 Oct 2022)

Size of this protest,  size of the OPS and what officers they could deploy were not equal.
The OPS Commander said they had a plan but wanted the Police Chief to stay out of it. 
The OPS had a deal with local tow companies, for drivers, operators, offered protection and camo to hide the company names ( have you seen the custom paint jobs some of the wreckers have in this area,  they are all TV stars so the paint jobs are next level), using city equipment 
This enacting of the law just sped the process up, offered money and man power. 

Canadians have the right to protest, suppose to be peaceful protesting, but the peace level depends what side of the protest you are on. 
Was this protest peaceful?  What do you consider as peaceful? Noise Levels, blocking streets and forcing the shutdown of business and making it hard to get to home and work.  Sounds peaceful till it affects you on a personal level.

This protest was peaceful in the fact there were no deaths, no looting, no gun fire, and no real violence.
It could of been a lot worse, and could of turned ugly like protests in the US.


----------



## mariomike (26 Oct 2022)

To their credit, the police - finally - took back control of the streets.

Or, to put it another way,



RangerRay said:


> All they care about was that the trash was finally taken out.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> To their credit, the police - finally - took back control of the streets.



…and to their credit, the majority of the demonstrators left the site.


----------



## Kat Stevens (26 Oct 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Size of this protest,  size of the OPS and what officers they could deploy were not equal.
> The OPS Commander said they had a plan but wanted the Police Chief to stay out of it.
> The OPS had a deal with local tow companies, for drivers, operators, offered protection and camo to hide the company names ( have you seen the custom paint jobs some of the wreckers have in this area,  they are all TV stars so the paint jobs are next level), using city equipment
> This enacting of the law just sped the process up, offered money and man power.
> ...


Me auntie could have been born with bollocks, but then she'd be me uncle.


----------



## mariomike (26 Oct 2022)

Be interesting to see if Conservative politicians embrace the freedom community, or socially distance themselves, or try to stay low key and walk a fine line down the middle come next election.


----------



## Haggis (26 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Be interesting to see if Conservative politicians embrace the freedom community, or socially distance themselves, or try to stay low key and walk a fine line down the middle come next election.


No chance of that. The Liberals will use photos of Polievere and other CPC candidates rubbing shoulders with the truckers and all other manner of disreputable characters at every opportunity.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> No chance of that. The Liberals will use photos of Polievere and other CPC candidates rubbing shoulders with the truckers and all other manner of disreputable characters at every opportunity.


Pfft, amateurs.

Let me know when Polievere has the balls to pose with an assassin.


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Size of this protest,  size of the OPS and what officers they could deploy were not equal.
> The OPS Commander said they had a plan but wanted the Police Chief to stay out of it.
> The OPS had a deal with local tow companies, for drivers, operators, offered protection and camo to hide the company names ( have you seen the custom paint jobs some of the wreckers have in this area,  they are all TV stars so the paint jobs are next level), using city equipment
> This enacting of the law just sped the process up, offered money and man power.
> ...


I’m still waiting for clarity on just what was going on with the tow trucks. Ottawa’s saying they got a bunch, feds are saying that arrangement fell through at the 11th hour over driver/operator demands indemnifications, and it sounds like OPP were actually handling those arrangements? I’m not very clear on it. I hope we get more clarity on just what the situation was between, who knew what, and when.

As an aside, the amount of documents posted on the commission website is incredible. If you want to see what the internal messaging, planning, and intelligence sharing looks like, including at the uppermost levels, a whole ton of mostly unredacted stuff has been shared. It’s so weird seeing all this info out in the public domain. Anyone with an interest in the behind the scenes could get lost in the wealth of material being shared.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Pfft, amateurs.
> 
> Let me know when Polievere has the balls to pose with an assassin.



Or invite terrorists to a dinner party 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jaspal-atwal-invite-dinner-sophie-1.4545881


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Oct 2022)

Enjoying a headline at CBC.  The EA was necessary because: (drumroll...) tow trucks.

"Police needed Emergencies Act after deal to secure tow trucks fell through, federal lawyer says"


----------



## lenaitch (26 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Whatever one's politics,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All major security operations in urban areas disrupt people; the difference with this one was sheer size of the number of people disrupted and the length.  Thinking back to Gxx conferences, Papal visits, Royal visits, areas and roads are closed  anywhere from a few minutes to a few days.  Think of the business disruption and damage of the G7 a few years ago.  First responder agencies get their costs covered; the general public and businesses, not so much.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Enjoying a headline at CBC.  The EA was necessary because: (drumroll...) tow trucks.
> 
> "Police needed Emergencies Act after deal to secure tow trucks fell through, federal lawyer says"


🤦🏻 

Other than all the OC Transpo 30t wreckers that everyone with the gift of sight saw for themselves back in February…

Beside, wasn’t the Federal Government’s justification back in February based on information provided by the CBC?


----------



## brihard (27 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> 🤦🏻
> 
> Other than all the OC Transpo 30t wreckers that everyone with the gift of sight saw for themselves back in February…
> 
> Beside, wasn’t the Federal Government’s justification back in February based on information provided by the CBC?


Honest question because I don’t know- how many did OC have at that time? I thought it was quite a low number?


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Honest question because I don’t know- how many did OC have at that time? I thought it was quite a low number?


I physically counted five (5) at the Industrial Ave/St.Laurent Blvd OC Transpo yard.  I don’t know where else they are stationed, and I heard that some assets were moved from there to support OTrain modification tooling, but I don’t know if that included moving the wreckers elsewhere (ie. to know if there were/are more than five heavy wreckers in the OC Transpo fleet).


----------



## childs56 (27 Oct 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Size of this protest,  size of the OPS and what officers they could deploy were not equal.
> The OPS Commander said they had a plan but wanted the Police Chief to stay out of it.
> The OPS had a deal with local tow companies, for drivers, operators, offered protection and camo to hide the company names ( have you seen the custom paint jobs some of the wreckers have in this area,  they are all TV stars so the paint jobs are next level), using city equipment
> This enacting of the law just sped the process up, offered money and man power.
> ...


Yes they do and they did. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> suppose to be peaceful protesting, but the peace level depends what side of the protest you are on.
> Was this protest peaceful?  What do you consider as peaceful?


Peaceful means non violent.


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Noise Levels, blocking streets


The Police blocked more streets then the protest did. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> and forcing the shutdown of business


Who forced the shut down of Businesses, the Protesters or the Police? 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> and making it hard to get to home and work.  Sounds peaceful till it affects you on a personal level.


Was there rioters? 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> This protest was peaceful in the fact there were no deaths, no looting, no gun fire, and no real violence.
> It could of been a lot worse, and could of turned ugly like protests in the US.


Or Vancouver, Qualicum, Montreal, Toronto and the list goes on.


----------



## brihard (27 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> The Police blocked more streets then the protest did.
> 
> Who forced the shut down of Businesses, the Protesters or the Police?



You’ve been misinformed; this is incorrect info. The police didn’t shut down businesses because of the protests. Further upthread there was discussion of this, including the 175 stores in the Rideau Centre mall being closed by mall management because they did not feel they could safely open. Many other downtown businesses were in the same boat.

Up until February 17th, police had only blocked the bare minimum necessary streets immediately surrounding the protest. In all the cases I saw when I visited the perimeter (though I didn’t see every bit of it), they closed the streets where they did because of you went further, you would be unable to then drive further because of the occupiers. E.g., MacKenzie was blocked southbound past Murray, because MacKenzie and Wellington, the next intersection, was blocked. Police, however, still allowed entry by those with lawful business, such as, in that case, vehicles going to the side parking and service entrance of the Chateau Laurier hotel. The ‘one block out’ road closures only impacted vehicles. Anyone of a mind to park outside the perimeter and walk the one block in to protest or visit a business was free to.

The much larger exclusion zone wasn’t established until February 17th, three days after the EA proclamation, and the day before the clearance operation started. That served as an outer cordon to keep reinforcements away from the occupation while public order was being restored, but again, those not involved with the convoy who had lawful business in the exclusion zone were free to enter.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (27 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> Yes they do and they did.  _this went from protestor to blockade and control. Protesters go home do not move in and take over for long term. Protestors have taken a side,  I do not have to agree with their side. I do not have to agree with what they say is my freedom and how they are protecting my freedoms.  Or how to use my freedom. My freedom here in Canada is much better than my freedom when I lived in the USA.  But does not mean I have to accept your version of freedom over what I think is my freedom. _
> 
> Peaceful means non violent._Peaceful in the means no one was killed or seriously wounded. But peaceful also means you do not  use intimidation as weapon in your protest. The people who live down town in the area, were being forced to listen to trucks idle all day and night. Suck in exhaust fumes because the traffic did not move. They had to put up with people using their yards, doorways as bathrooms. Sure they shoveled the snow at the National War Memorial and swept it up. But did they do damage with shovels and ice scrappers chipping the ice away? Usually not shoveled because ice and snow work as natural barrier to foot traffic and salt and ice melting chemicals on your boots can cause damage to stone and stone work. They did great PR stunts, but the rest was a lot of intimidation of their fellow Canadians who live and work down there._
> 
> ...



But you have to look at the long term changes it made to the area. Long term traffic rerouting, access to Parliament Hill for the average person is now a questionable thing to do. Talking of making it more like the US Capitol district, more special police ( Parliament Hill already has a private police service now after the shooting there), road closures,  might not be allowed to enjoy the park like setting of the Hill and area. It has made Ottawa and the various government departments rethinking long term access, and tourism enjoyment of the area, and how to restrict access .


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Oct 2022)

What is needed is a big mall, and lots of other park-like spaces for people to assemble and gripe.


----------



## FSTO (27 Oct 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> But you have to look at the long term changes it made to the area. Long term traffic rerouting, access to Parliament Hill for the average person is now a questionable thing to do. Talking of making it more like the US Capitol district, more special police ( Parliament Hill already has a private police service now after the shooting there), road closures,  might not be allowed to enjoy the park like setting of the Hill and area. It has made Ottawa and the various government departments rethinking long term access, and tourism enjoyment of the area, and how to restrict access .


I was in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago. I walked all about Parliament Hill. Not much of a change at all except for the lack of traffic on Wellington. But for pedestrians there has not been much of a change at all.


----------



## Edward Campbell (27 Oct 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> But you have to look at the long term changes it made to the area. Long term traffic rerouting, access to Parliament Hill for the average person is now a questionable thing to do. Talking of making it more like the US Capitol district, more special police ( Parliament Hill already has a private police service now after the shooting there), road closures,  might not be allowed to enjoy the park like setting of the Hill and area. It has made Ottawa and the various government departments rethinking long term access, and tourism enjoyment of the area, and how to restrict access .


There is a long term rebuilding plan for the so-called Precincts of Parliament which almost cry out for a pedestrian mall/occasional-use ceremonial route. The PPS is, _in my opinion_ - but I'll likely agree whatever Brihard says, long overdue. I think that the City of Ottawa's responsibility ought to end in the South-East at about the point where Sparks Street joins the National War Memorial, and in the South West at the corner of Banks and Sparks Streets. The enlarged Precincts of Parliament should have very, very, very limited vehicle access (bicycles are vehicles) but free and easy access for pedestrians and should be policed by well armed, well trained Parliamentary Protective Service members backed up by the RCMP.


----------



## brihard (27 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> There is a long term rebuilding plan for the so-called Precincts of Parliament which almost cry out for a pedestrian mall/occasional-use ceremonial route. The PPS is, _in my opinion_ - but I'll likely agree whatever Brihard says, long overdue. I think that the City of Ottawa's responsibility ought to end in the South-East at about the point where Sparks Street joins the National War Memorial, and in the South West at the corner of Banks and Sparks Streets. The enlarged Precincts of Parliament should have very, very, very limited vehicle access (bicycles are vehicles) but free and easy access for pedestrians and should be policed by well armed, well trained Parliamentary Protective Service members backed up by the RCMP.


This gets a bit tricky. PPS are best understood as security, not police. Some of them do totally routine screening work at entrances to Parliamentary buildings- as you know and others may not, Parliament’s facilities extend well beyond the hill. PPS also has a well trained and equipped response capability for something like an active shooter. If the bad day were to happen again, I’d be comfortable stacking up with them to hunt the threat. They do _not_ have conventional peace officer status, however, and have no mandate to investigate or charge for offences. That’s an Ottawa Police problem. Say a normal assault happened on Parliament Hill- like anyone, they can intervene, but Ottawa Police would take the file.

I agree about Wellington going pedestrian/ceremonial between, say, Bank and Elgin, and down to Sparks. But unless RCMP were handed responsibility for conventional _policing_ within that area, it would keep Ottawa as the police of jurisdiction. To me it makes no sense to revert to RCMP _policing_ Parliament, and slightly expanded environs. They have different mandates, are on different and incompatible radios from OPS, have a different dispatch centre… An evolving criminal situation can move too fast across that patch of ground for it to be logical to create that divide for just a couple blocks. The US has major issues with jurisdictional balkanization. The problems we saw at convoy would not be fixed by giving RCMP responsibility for police of jurisdiction over a couple blocks. Any major public order event would stretch far beyond that anyway, and would still be (appropriately) an OPS problem.

What needs to happen is OPS needs to gets its shit together. The communication, intelligence sharing, and cooperation between OPS, OPP, and finally RCMP should all be relatively easily remediable. The necessary mechanisms already exist to swap intelligence and plan for events. This was, IMHO and based on what’s come out so far, primarily a command failure on the part of the police of jurisdiction. Maybe the swift change in posture and response after Sloly took his ball and went home is a positive indicator that, with competent command, OPS _could_ recognize a threat and engage partners in a timely manner.

We’ll see. I don’t think the days of large crowds pissed at Trudeau and willing to be really dumb about it are over.


----------



## lenaitch (27 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> What is needed is a big mall, and lots of other park-like spaces for people to assemble and gripe.


During the G20 (Huntsville) and G7 (Toronto) they had designated 'protest' areas set aside.  I am sure this has been done in other jurisdictions.  I both cases - crickets.


----------



## lenaitch (27 Oct 2022)

I recall a RCMP police attache at our embassy in Washington telling us how many law enforcement agencies there were in DC.  I don't remember the number but it struck me as large, similar to the balkanization of law enforcement is much of the US.  He said that if a drunk passed out on a sidewalk, which agency out of many that would arrest him depended largely on which way he fell.


----------



## childs56 (28 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> You’ve been misinformed; this is incorrect info. The police didn’t shut down businesses because of the protests.


There are a few videos showing the Police closing businesses down in the area or risk being arrested.  Ya they did shut down businesses who up until then were making decent money. 


brihard said:


> Further upthread there was discussion of this, including the 175 stores in the Rideau Centre mall being closed by mall management because they did not feel they could safely open.


That was a mall management choice to do so, they claim safety of their workers. Yet COVID spread wearing masks. They didn't protect you. 


brihard said:


> Many other downtown businesses were in the same boat.
> 
> Up until February 17th, police had only blocked the bare minimum necessary streets immediately surrounding the protest. In all the cases I saw when I visited the perimeter (though I didn’t see every bit of it), they closed the streets where they did because of you went further, you would be unable to then drive further because of the occupiers. E.g., MacKenzie was blocked southbound past Murray, because MacKenzie and Wellington, the next intersection, was blocked. Police, however, still allowed entry by those with lawful business, such as, in that case, vehicles going to the side parking and service entrance of the Chateau Laurier hotel. The ‘one block out’ road closures only impacted vehicles. Anyone of a mind to park outside the perimeter and walk the one block in to protest or visit a business was free to.


The Police were restricting access to the Hospital, by using detours that were not necessary. People blamed the protesters until the road blocks were recorded and put on the air. The Police modified the blocks when the truth came out.   


brihard said:


> The much larger exclusion zone wasn’t established until February 17th, three days after the EA proclamation, and the day before the clearance operation started. That served as an outer cordon to keep reinforcements away from the occupation while public order was being restored, but again, those not involved with the convoy who had lawful business in the exclusion zone were free to enter.



The entire protest was a crap sandwich, the protest should never have happened. The Feds should have either did real action to protect us from covid or did nothing. The fact that they hid behind their walls, poor planning and poor choices let us all know how incompetent they are. 

When BC and Ab asked for International flights and borders to be shut down, the pm and his gang did nothing and stated they did not want any economic fall back . Instead they locked us down for a year and half with half butt measures that did not protect anyone besides their bank accounts. They forced a vaccine that wasn't even effective, the manufactures are even stating they said that.  But drink the koolaid and keep JT and the gang in power, they will for sure ruin our country and economy in another year or two.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Oct 2022)

How do you turn something (flights should have been closed down right away and Mr Trudeaus leadership sucked) I strongly believe, into a ranting,  gobblygook argument? ?

It's gotta' be an art form. ....


----------



## brihard (28 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> There are a few videos showing the Police closing businesses down in the area or risk being arrested.  Ya they did shut down businesses who up until then were making decent money.
> 
> That was a mall management choice to do so, they claim safety of their workers. Yet COVID spread wearing masks. They didn't protect you.
> 
> ...


The only instances in which police were involved in closing businesses were a handful of instances in which businesses continued to operate in blatant violation of provincial mask or proof of vaccination mandates. That was incidental to the occupation and would have happened whether or not convoy happened.

Everything else you’ve said has either been previously addressed or isn’t related to my reply, so I’ll leave it at that. I’m under no illusion that I’ll change your clung-to beliefs that the convoy occupation of downtown Ottawa was righteous.

Meanwhile, for those keeping track, I remain unconvinced that the EA was necessary. Though I’m still open to the possibility, with what’s come out so far it’s gonna be an uphill battle for the federal government to convince me.


----------



## Remius (28 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I recall a RCMP police attache at our embassy in Washington telling us how many law enforcement agencies there were in DC.  I don't remember the number but it struck me as large, similar to the balkanization of law enforcement is much of the US.  He said that if a drunk passed out on a sidewalk, which agency out of many that would arrest him depended largely on which way he fell.


I believe it’s 22.


----------



## FSTO (28 Oct 2022)

The intelligence failure started when the convoy got going. I truly believe that everyone in Ottawa were convinced that the convoy would lose steam by the time it would cross the Ontario border, then Thunder Bay, then Sault St Marie, then for sure by Sudbury it would peter out. 

But in typical Canadian fashion they all kept their heads in the sand until they were forced to deal with it. By then, any envoy attempt was doomed to fail. 

When I passed the convoy on my way to Regina between Brandon and Virden and seeing all the cars and trucks lining the highway in support I knew in my bones that the people in Ottawa had no clue what was coming down the road. 

Nobody covered themselves in any glory in this episode. Do I think we'll do any better if something similar happens again? I'm not very optimistic.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m under no illusion that I’ll change your clung-to beliefs that the convoy occupation of downtown Ottawa was righteous.



The police re-taking control of the streets was righteous.



> All they care about was that the trash was finally taken out.


----------



## Lumber (28 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> When BC and Ab asked for International flights and borders to be shut down, the pm and his gang did nothing and stated they did not want any economic fall back . Instead they locked us down for a year and half with half butt measures that did not protect anyone besides their bank accounts.


Wait... so on the one hand you're complaining about being locked down and then on the other hand you're complaining that the measures were only "half butt measures"? So you wanted a more firm lockdown? Stronger restrictions? Less freedoms? 



childs56 said:


> They forced a vaccine that wasn't even effective, the manufactures are even stating they said that.  But drink the koolaid and keep JT and the gang in power, they will for sure ruin our country and economy in another year or two.



Uhh, what Koolaid are YOU drinking? The vaccine was and always has been effective, and no one has ever said that it's not. The only thing that has ever changed is an assessment of how likely the vaccine was/is to prevent transmission of the disease; but, as a tool to help ensure positive outcomes for people in the pandemic writ large? That's never changed and it's always been very effective.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Oct 2022)

Best line ever from the former chief of OPS.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585993454479282176


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> What is needed is a big mall, and lots of other park-like spaces for people to assemble and gripe.



If writing, phoning or visiting their local MP is not satisfying enough, that sounds like a good place for them to wrap themselves in their flags and chant their a$$es off.


----------



## childs56 (28 Oct 2022)

Lumber said:


> Wait... so on the one hand you're complaining about being locked down and then on the other hand you're complaining that the measures were only "half butt measures"? So you wanted a more firm lockdown? Stronger restrictions? Less freedoms?


The fact that they did not a dam thing in the beginning showed either incompetence, stupidity or no clue. Then wham they hit the working class with harsh measures for a year and a half.  


Lumber said:


> Uhh, what Koolaid are YOU drinking? The vaccine was and always has been effective, and no one has ever said that it's not. The only thing that has ever changed is an assessment of how likely the vaccine was/is to prevent transmission of the disease; but, as a tool to help ensure positive outcomes for people in the pandemic writ large? That's never changed and it's always been very effective.


Actually manufacturers like _Pfizer have stated that it "may be effective" not that it was. Defining effectiveness is left to the imagination of the beholder. 
Multimillion dollar company who gets multi hundred million dollar contract from friend JT. Yup it works.  Yet many if not most caught the virus after getting vaccinated. 

Those who did not get the vaccines caught the virus and had the same or very similar reactions as those who got the vaccine. Except they did not run the risk of enlarged hearts, breathing issues etc.  _


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Oct 2022)

Forget it folks.........internet chat Doctor.  Always right, just ask 'em.


----------



## childs56 (28 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> The intelligence failure started when the convoy got going. I truly believe that everyone in Ottawa were convinced that the convoy would lose steam by the time it would cross the Ontario border, then Thunder Bay, then Sault St Marie, then for sure by Sudbury it would peter out.
> 
> But in typical Canadian fashion they all kept their heads in the sand until they were forced to deal with it. By then, any envoy attempt was doomed to fail.
> 
> When I passed the convoy on my way to Regina between Brandon and Virden and seeing all the cars and trucks lining the highway in support I knew in my bones that the people in Ottawa had no clue what was coming down the road.


It is funny how Ottawa got it so wrong with their intelligence, yet out west they stated very clearly what they were doing and how long they were going to stay for.  


FSTO said:


> Nobody covered themselves in any glory in this episode. Do I think we'll do any better if something similar happens again? I'm not very optimistic.


I think what really scared the government was that the" true blue collar worker" from coast to coast came together to support this protest.  They raised a large sum of cash in a very short period of time. That raised suspicion, but in fact was average people tired of being locked down with no end in sight and no actual plan to stop.  

There was lots of comments from certain groups about how these "fringe minority, racists bigots" could organize fund raise and get together so quickly.  Ever see a farmer need help during harvest season. They all band together and get it done.  

The West spoke, the East spoke, Central Canada spoke, Ottawa hid in the shadows trying to discredit, every person there. The truth is coming out, RCMP leadership lied, the OPP leadership lied, the OPS leadership was in turmoil prior to and into this event, the Ottawa City Council was in such a mess only could they survive in Ottawa. A total failure at all jurisdictions at the higher levels is what happened. 

This vaccine mandates were the final straw for many Truckers who work the Dock yards, transport the goods and services we need on a daily basis. They figured the only way the government listens is during a protest. They new protesting in Vancouver misses Ottawa completely, so they went to Ottawa. Did you know the protest was actually started by a group of Sheikh truckers in BC.


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2022)

Let's get one thing straight - the vaccine prevented severe outcomes. I do not recall any time where the doctors etc said you'd be immune. People will believe what they want to believe contrary to evidence. THAT included ingesting Ivermectin - a horse dewormer - to combat COVID.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Oct 2022)

Ivermectin in small doses has various uses for people, rather than "none".  In larger doses it has a use for horses.

I suspect most people who thought it might help with COVID took it in small doses, which would not make it a "horse dewormer".  Does the distinction matter?  Yes, if we endeavour to be more honest.  We don't claim that people who drink products containing ethanol are drinking automobile fuel.


----------



## Journeyman (28 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> Did you know the protest was actually started by a group of Sheikh truckers in BC.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> Did you know the protest was actually started by a group of Sheikh truckers in BC.



‘We can’t be a part of such a campaign’: Manan Gupta on South Asian truckers and the Freedom Convoy​





						TVO | Current affairs, documentaries and education
					






					www.tvo.org
				




From someone who served on the front-line.



brihard said:


> The convoy protests was super white.


----------



## Lumber (28 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> Actually manufacturers like _Pfizer have stated that it "may be effective" not that it was. Defining effectiveness is left to the imagination of the beholder.
> Multimillion dollar company who gets multi hundred million dollar contract from friend JT. Yup it works.  Yet many if not most caught the virus after getting vaccinated.
> 
> Those who did not get the vaccines caught the virus and had the same or very similar reactions as those who got the vaccine. Except they did not run the risk of enlarged hearts, breathing issues etc.  _



Defining effectiveness is not in "imagination of the beholder". We have science for that:

CDC: 


> In terms of benefits, the available data from RCTs demonstrated that, compared with placebo, vaccination was associated with a lower risk of symptomatic laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 (relative risk [RR] 0.09, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.07–0.11; evidence type 1), hospitalization due to COVID-19 (RR 0.02; 95% CI 0.00–0.12; evidence type 2), and death due to COVID-19 (RR 0.17, 95% CI 0.02–1.39; evidence type 2).


----------



## Blackadder1916 (28 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> . . . Did you know the protest was actually started by a group of Sheikh truckers in BC.



The limit of disease prevention theory/practice/knowledge for "a group of Sheik [tr]uckers".


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> The limit of disease prevention theory/practice/knowledge for "a group of Sheik [tr]uckers".
> 
> View attachment 74496


I noticed that as well. I think he meant Sikh? LOL


----------



## lenaitch (28 Oct 2022)

I was just a casual news coverage observer, but I don't recall seeing a single visibly Sikh in any of the images.  That must have been a MSM conspiracy to only show white folk.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> That must have been a MSM conspiracy to only show white folk.


You mean the MSM, especially one in particular, upon which the GoC justified the EA? 😉


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> 300 Coventry Road. Objectively, there was a lot of potential danger there based on some of the individuals who were hanging out, and things they had said.


I'm not tracking the specifics but I'd believe it. That said (and not being a butwhataboutbilly) a UHaul truck has the potential danger to take out 100 people in seconds.  Every one of those semi-trucks were a potential WMD in my opinion. There were potentially dangerous things everywhere. 

If 300 Coventry road was as dangerous as it sounds, it seems counter productive to just scare them away with no arrests and little fan fare.

One would think it's important for public safety (and scrutney) to know that a shadowy cabal of para-military organized baddies set up a head quarters inside a cordon. And know what the government and police are doing about it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> The police re-taking control of the streets was righteous.


You keep repeating Ranger Ray's comments about taking out the trash. What point are you trying to get across here?

Are you just trying to say you think these people are trash or is there something deeper?


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

Sorry if that "triggered" you, Jarnhamar.

And yes, I do believe,  "The police re-taking control of the streets was righteous." Metro Police horses and all.


You posted a picture of a child. What point are YOU trying to make?



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/17/freedom-convoy-children-ottawa-protest/
		


The children of the ‘Freedom Convoy’: Kids with protesting parents complicate police response​
For Leuprecht, from the Royal Military College, that amounts to using children as human shields.

OTTAWA — They’re a defining feature of the self-styled “Freedom Convoy”: Children. And they’re a major concern for Canadian authorities trying to end the weeks-long standoff that has paralyzed the capital.

But government officials and police say an illegal “siege” with car fumes and combustible fuel and that contains extremist elements is no place for kids — and vastly complicates their response to the crisis.

Police are prioritizing the “safest way to have children removed from the area prior to any sort of police action,” interim police chief Steve Bell said Thursday. He called the demonstrations “not a good place for children to be.”

The stakes rose this week when Trudeau invoked Canada’s Emergencies Act. The regulations bar bringing minors to unlawful demonstrations.

As police officers handed out fliers this week warning protesters to disperse or face arrest, the Children’s Aid Society of Ottawa urged parents to make “alternate arrangements” in case they were “unable to care for their children following potential police action.”

The challenges and consequences of how Canada handles these protests and the children within them are immense.
The urban blockade set up by civilians — some with far-right and extremist ties — encompasses large swaths of the downtown core. No one wants to be responsible for images of police violence and children, which could galvanize support for protesters and radical movements.

“It is a dangerous and volatile environment that they are in,” said Barbara Perry, a criminology professor at Ontario Tech University. “And it’s exploitative [by the convoy] of the kids to prey on the public’s sympathy.”

“One cannot underestimate how the presence of children — more than the fear some protesters might be armed — has paralyzed any tactical police response” in Ottawa, Canadian journalist Glen McGregor tweeted. “I don’t know how they get the kids out without scalding images of their removal.”

Police, accused of taking too lax an approach to a protest that authorities have said is illegal, have cited the presence of children — and fears for their safety — as one reason they’ve been unable to resolve the crisis.

Authorities worry that the vehicle fumes, loud horns, extreme cold and highly combustible jerrycans of fuel pose serious dangers. The Children’s Aid Society of Ottawa received “ongoing reports … regarding child welfare concerns,” police said last week.

For Leuprecht, from the Royal Military College, that amounts to using children as human shields.

It is clearly an effort to instrumentalize children for the purposes of political protest and to hamper police enforcement of the occupation,” he said.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Sorry if that "triggered" you, Jarnhamar.
> 
> And yes, I do believe,  "The police re-taking control of the streets was righteous." Metro Police horses and all.
> 
> ...


I'm sure he's pointing out that you're attempting to dehumanize protestors you ideologically disagree with, which is a disgusting tactic and not fit for adult debate. I'm sure there's a Voltaire quote that's a good fit, maybe you can Google it.

But please, post more news articles that passive aggresively highlight random passages in it to somehow think you're actually contributing independent, intelligent thought here.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I'm sure he's pointing out that you're attempting to dehumanize protestors you ideologically disagree with, which is a disgusting tactic and not fit for adult debate.



Funny you were not "triggered" by the original post.

Offended by it? Do an R2M.



RangerRay said:


> All they care about was that the trash was finally taken out.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Sorry if that "triggered" you, Jarnhamar.


Also see





But really my friend, no need for fake apologies or passive-aggressive jabs.

You still didn't answer my question. At least twice now in as many days you quoted Ranger Ray's comments about taking out the trash. The "trash" obviously being the protestors.

So are you just trying to support the notion that the protestors are trash or was there something deeper?




mariomike said:


> You posted a picture of a child. What point are YOU trying to make?


I'm trying to gauge who you think is trash.

What about these two?


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Don't like it? Do an R2M.


Whats R2M?


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

It's been well reported - with published sources - over these 277 pages that the South-Asian community - by and large - shunned the freedom community.









						Freedom Convoy shunned by South Asian truck drivers
					

The conspicuous absence of South Asian truck drivers in the so-called Freedom Convoy that is protesting border vaccine mandates in Ottawa, is reflecti...




					www.thestar.com
				




As someone who served on the front-line pointed out,


brihard said:


> The convoy protests was super white.



R2M = Report to Moderator.

I'm not going to argue over the original poster's choice of words. Why don't you ask him?


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Sorry if that "triggered" you, Jarnhamar.
> 
> And yes, I do believe,  "The police re-taking control of the streets was righteous." Metro Police horses and all.
> 
> ...


Do you get just as "triggered" when lefty protestors have "Bring Your Kids to the Riots" day?


----------



## Journeyman (28 Oct 2022)

We need a yawning emoji at the Like button.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Oct 2022)

Journeyman said:


> We need a yawning emoji at the Like button.


Let's just burn the whole thread down then, clearly it's not going anywhere.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> It's been well reported - with published sources - over these 277 pages that the South-Asian community - by and large - shunned the freedom community.
> 
> As someone who served on the front-line pointed out,


So it's just the white protestors we're talking about, roger that I'll move on.



Kat Stevens said:


> Let's just burn the whole thread down then, clearly it's not going anywhere.


BIP it in place


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> So it's just the white protestors that are trash, roger that I'll move on.
> 
> 
> BIP it in place


I'm your huckleberry...


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> So it's just the white protestors we're talking about, roger that I'll move on.



You posted the pic of two South-Asian men.









						Freedom Convoy shunned by South Asian truck drivers
					

The conspicuous absence of South Asian truck drivers in the so-called Freedom Convoy that is protesting border vaccine mandates in Ottawa, is reflecti...




					www.thestar.com
				




I pointed out what has been published, and posted. 

And what a member who actually served on the front-line observed and reported.



> I'll move on.



We'll see.


----------



## RangerRay (28 Oct 2022)

I should have been more clear that that might have been what a frustrated resident may have been feeling at the time, not what I was personally thinking. Not sure why someone else wanted to quote it so liberally. 

My original point was that when the authorities don’t restore order and enforce the law, the aggrieved residents won’t care how it’s restored.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Not sure why someone else wanted to quote it so liberally.


Twice. Which led to fourteen posts about it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Oct 2022)

Speaking of actually dangerous people being overlooked, there's been an update in the platoon sized organized attacks out in BC in Feb.

Sorta.

Attacks ignite concerns that enviro-violence is returning to B.C.'s pipeline country​


> *Arsonists have allegedly struck a parking lot full of RCMP vehicles* in the same region of interior B.C. that has previously seen coordinated attacks on targets related to the Coastal GasLink pipeline.
> 
> *Eight vehicles, including four RCMP and one ambulance vehicle, were set on fire* outside the Sunshine Inn in Smithers, B.C., early on October 26, 2022.
> 
> ...


----------



## eliminator (29 Oct 2022)

WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy​








						WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy
					

The conversation between two of Canada's top cops was about an undercover police operation that would see soldiers disguised Mounties.




					torontosun.com
				




_"...I was thinking maybe we could use CAF but in our uniforms as unarmed Auxiliaries or Spl (special) Csts. (constables) to supplement us … in teams.”

"Section 282 of the National Defence Act states, “They shall act only as a military body and are individually liable to obey the orders of their superior officers” and “while acting in aid of the civil power, have and may exercise all of the powers and duties of constables but are not to be considered constables in the service of the civil authorities.”"_

CAF wearing RCMP uniforms, operating as Auxilliaries or Spl Csts. Well that's an interesting concept...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Oct 2022)

eliminator said:


> WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Remind me again how Lucki still has a job?

If I had ever ended up deployed for something like this, I wouldn't take any orders from the RCMP ever.  

The last highlighted bit tells me I don't have to either.


----------



## Haggis (29 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Remind me again how Lucki still has a job?


Because she only _considered_ it and did not act on it.  I'm sure there were several good idea fairies circling her all the time.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> If I had ever ended up deployed for something like this, I wouldn't take any orders from the RCMP ever.
> 
> The last highlighted bit tells me I don't have to either.


Same as when we did the G8/G20 in Toronto.  The troops were teamed up with civpol but took their tactical orders from the CAF leadership.


----------



## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

Yeah I see this more as brain storming ideas in an unprecedented situation.

I think if a plan had been drawn up and request made to make it happen then maybe this would be a different conversation.

But the uniform thing smacks of hiding the fact they were using CAF soldiers.  That part is a little odd…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Yeah I see this more as brain storming ideas in an unprecedented situation.
> 
> I think if a plan had been drawn up and request made to make it happen then maybe this would be a different conversation.
> 
> But the uniform thing smacks of hiding the fact they were using CAF soldiers.  That part is a little odd…


CAF members cannot be used as Constables in service of Civil Authorities.  It's clearly laid out in the NDA so for Lucki to come out and use the word "Constable" is pretty stupid.



Haggis said:


> Because she only _considered_ it and did not act on it.  I'm sure there were several good idea fairies circling her all the time.


Agreed


Haggis said:


> Same as when we did the G8/G20 in Toronto.  The troops were teamed up with civpol but took their tactical orders from the CAF leadership.


But that's different from this situation.  There are SOFAs for that sort of thing.

The only way this works IMO is if you bring the Armed Forces in as they did in the Oka Crisis and the Military takes over the operation.

The police can take their marching orders from us in that situation, not the other way around.


----------



## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> CAF members cannot be used as Constables in service of Civil Authorities.  It's clearly laid out in the NDA so for Lucki to come out and use the word "Constable" is pretty stupid.


Maybe she isn’t that familiar with the NDA.  I find that even in our own ranks people have a hard time interpreting some sections.  Why would we expect someone outside the CAF to be educated on that?  It’s not something I would imagine she would be familiar with beyond knowing that there is an act.

Are you tracking what the RCMP Act says about special constables or auxiliaries and how they can be appointed?  Most people outside the RCMP probably are not.  Maybe she thought she could use her authority based on what was in the RCMP act to make it happen.  It was brainstorming ideas and I’d hardly consider her use of of the word « constable » as stupid.  An idea that likely would have needed looking into and likely stopped if it had been looked at seriously. 

There is a lot to criticize about all this but this is pretty minor.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Maybe she isn’t that familiar with the NDA.  I find that even in our own ranks people have a hard time interpreting some sections.  Why would we expect someone outside the CAF to be educated on that?  It’s not something I would imagine she would be familiar with beyond knowing that there is an act.
> 
> Are you tracking what the RCMP Act says about special constables or auxiliaries and how they can be appointed?  Most people outside the RCMP probably are not.  Maybe she thought she could use her authority based on what was in the RCMP act to make it happen.  It was brainstorming ideas and I’d hardly consider her use of of the word « constable » as stupid.  An idea that likely would have needed looking into and likely stopped if it had been looked at seriously.
> 
> There is a lot to criticize about all this but this is pretty minor.


You think it's "A Minor Thing" that the HEAD of the RCMP is "just brainstorming" the use of Military Force in Canada and doesn't understand that CAF members cannot be considered Constables?

The worst part is she wasn't even brainstorming it with anyone from the CAF, rather another Police Officer, who thankfully cautioned her.

If she wants to brainstorm it with anyone, it should be with the CDS.


----------



## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You think it's "A Minor Thing" that the HEAD of the RCMP is "just brainstorming" the use of Military Force in Canada and doesn't understand that CAF members cannot be considered Constables?
> 
> The worst part is she wasn't even brainstorming it with anyone from the CAF, rather another Police Officer, who thankfully cautioned her.
> 
> If she wants to brainstorm it with anyone, it should be with the CDS.


Yes I do think it was minor,   Brainstorming and throwing ideas good and bad and looking at all available ideas and bouncing it off peers and colleagues. Some things get considered and some stay on the napkin and get trashed and don’t get considered. 

Would you rather she operate alone and not consult? Thankfully she did and someone said « bad idea » maybe look at other options.   And thankfully she did not approach the CDS with that idea.

I would assume she would be consulting the CDS after they would have a proposal or COA and discussed with her team.  That never happened from what I can see so it wasn’t an idea that was taken seriously enough.


----------



## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Maybe she isn’t that familiar with the NDA.  I find that even in our own ranks people have a hard time interpreting some sections.  Why would we expect someone outside the CAF to be educated on that?  It’s not something I would imagine she would be familiar with beyond knowing that there is an act.
> 
> Are you tracking what the RCMP Act says about special constables or auxiliaries and how they can be appointed?  Most people outside the RCMP probably are not.  Maybe she thought she could use her authority based on what was in the RCMP act to make it happen.  It was brainstorming ideas and I’d hardly consider her use of of the word « constable » as stupid.  An idea that likely would have needed looking into and likely stopped if it had been looked at seriously.
> 
> There is a lot to criticize about all this but this is pretty minor.


Indeed. It’s the Toronto Sun breathlessly reporting on a portion of an off the cuff idea. The author followed it to the point of quoting s. 282 NDA, which is a ‘pull’ from the province, but doesn’t appear to have considered 273.6(2) NDA, which is a ‘push’ from the feds:

Law enforcement assistance

273.6 (2) The Governor in Council, or the Minister on the request of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness or any other Minister, may issue directions authorizing the Canadian Forces to provide assistance in respect of any law enforcement matter if the Governor in Council or the Minister, as the case may be, considers that


(a) the assistance is in the national interest; and
(b) the matter cannot be effectively dealt with except with the assistance of the Canadian Forces.

- - - - -

So, there are a couple different statutory authorities, neither of which the RCMP or OPP Commissioners were likely well acquainted with. Further, when she spoke of “Auxiliary Constables” and “Special Constables”, those are both terms with their own significance that are distinct from plain ‘constables’. I understand the terminology she was using, and this really looks like imprecise spitballing of ideas in a crisis. Contextually, this was Feb 13th, when the ‘what do we do?’ crisis was peaking just before Sloly’s resignation and the EA declaration. We already know that at this same time other levels of government had lost confidence in OPS and Sloly and that OPP were considering a move to take operational command.

It appears she was considering various/all options- it’s her job to at least think of what’s out there that can be lawfully used. It appears she briefly pondered the possibility of CAF being used as auxiliaries colocated with police officers; basically extra bodies for law enforcement tasks, which could potentially occur under 273.6(2), distinct from from the Aid of the Civil Power provisions.

The author, I believe, misinterpreted a quote: “Lucki texted: “Could you see a role for CAF in any of this… For example, after we secure and all is back to ‘normal,’ maybe keeping sites secure or patrolling unmanned *POE’s (Public Order Emergency) *etc.”

I suspect that POE in this context was actually "ports of entry", and that this means RCMP Commish was contemplating some role for CAF in securing unstaffed border crossings (there are lots). this suggests that this conversation was larger than just the Ottawa context.

Obviously nothing came of any of the musings about employing CAF, and I’m glad that’s the case. I don’t see anything here that would have been _good_ ideas, but I don’t see much fault in two senior police privately bouncing off the wall ideas off each other in a crisis.


----------



## IKnowNothing (29 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> The intelligence failure started when the convoy got going. I truly believe that everyone in Ottawa were convinced that the convoy would lose steam by the time it would cross the Ontario border, then Thunder Bay, then Sault St Marie, then for sure by Sudbury it would peter out.


I think it was moreso a failure in perspective.
On one hand you've got dingdongs with zero math skills or common sense taking pictures of lines of trucks, bustling parking lots, and crowded overpasses and claiming proof of tens of thousands of trucks  with the support of the majority of Canadians.

On the other hand you have rational people doing the math, confirming that it's hundreds of trucks, laughing at the idiots that actually believed what was being said in the first hand.  It was brutally obvious that Operation Bearhug was not the nationally supported revolution that it claimed to be, that they were going to fall far short of their stated goal of "choking out" the entire NCR until demands were met.

What the second hand failed to realize was that while the reality was miniscule in perspective relative to the claims and boasting,  it was still actually a material movement with sufficient size, backing, and commitment to cause issues.

And regarding Sikh truckers in BC starting the whole thing- complete fabrication.  BC truckers (heavily South Asian) happened to have an entirely separate protest convoy about working conditions and road safety right around time the Freedom one was spooling up.  Between substandard reporting and active propaganda the two got associated.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> *What the second hand failed to realize was that while the reality was miniscule in perspective relative to the claims and boasting,  it was still actually a material movement with sufficient size, backing, and commitment to cause issues.*



And they learned alot of lessons for next time, right?


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> It's been well reported - with published sources - over these 277 pages that the South-Asian community - by and large - shunned the freedom community.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



“By and large…”

That doesn’t get to be used to zero them out…or does it?

Seems that “by and large” is a principle that is used or ignored depending on how it fits some one’s agenda…

• by and large, the protestors were white…

(IGNORE the inconvenient fact that some/a few/several/etc. of the originators and supporters were non-white, that’s against the desired narrative)  CHECK

whilst…

• by and large, the protestors were peaceful…

(BUT BUT BUT, Nazis! Racists! The desired narrative of the country’s highest leader(s)) CHECK


----------



## mariomike (29 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> And regarding Sikh truckers in BC starting the whole thing- complete fabrication.  BC truckers (heavily South Asian) happened to have an entirely separate protest convoy about working conditions and road safety right around time the Freedom one was spooling up.  Between substandard reporting and active propaganda the two got associated.



Well said.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Speaking of actually dangerous people being overlooked, there's been an update in the platoon sized organized attacks out in BC in Feb.
> 
> Sorta.
> 
> Attacks ignite concerns that enviro-violence is returning to B.C.'s pipeline country​




Well, we do know that the government currently is weak on countering eco-criminality…I mean when your environmental minister has a criminal record related to eco-demonstration, one could imagine how a mindset of tolerance against upscaled criminality could be viewed leniently…


----------



## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And they learned alot of lessons for next time, right?


Very definitely. The subsequent “rolling thunder” protest a couple months later was subject to very tight traffic control, and swift and decisive public order unit action when they tried to get stupid and blockade Rideau Street. Lessons from convoy were learned and implemented.

Regarding who was protesting: I can only speak firsthand to what I saw occupying Ottawa, but I’m stand my my earlier assertions: overwhelmingly if not quite exclusively white. The racial breakdown, IMHO, really doesn’t matter- I only mention. It because it’s apprently a factual bone of contention, so FWIW that’s my observation. As for “truckers”, I’ll take that to mean those economically dependent on driving trucks, or/or owning operating same. While there were a few of those on the ground, I’d estimate that they were a small minority of the occupiers and of those who took to the streets on foot, although they provided the physical kit (trucks) to allow the occupation to have disproportionate effect. Some truckers came out for a drive at the start, but most had to get back to work. The core ideological leaders or organizers, and their inner circle - Bauder, Lich, King, Marazzo, et al, were not truckers, but rather were familiar faces in anti-government protest circles. Whatever truckers may have started, they co-opted- and this was not the first convoy to Ottawa some were involved in.

What hit the ground and occupied Ottawa bore little resemblance to legitimate grievances held by long haul truckers. The occupation was mostly a varied and inchoate assembly of various groups with ideological affinity, catalyze by various pandemic related beliefs and opinions, and united(ish) by a desire to see the current government tossed out on its ass with or without an election.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> View attachment 74508
> 
> Well, we do know that the government currently is weak on countering eco-criminality…I mean when your environmental minister has a criminal record related to eco-demonstration, one could imagine how a mindset of tolerance against upscaled criminality could be viewed leniently…



And just last week, in Smithers....

B.C. emergency vehicles torched in Smithers, police say: ‘This is an arson’​
A number of RCMP and emergency vehicles were deliberately set on fire in a Smithers, B.C., hotel parking lot early Wednesday.





Extensive damage to a number of RCMP vehicles was shown on social media. BC Hydro confirmed one of its vehicles was also burned.
Smithers RCMP said officers received calls from the Smithers Fire Department for assistance around 4:30 a.m.

“The fire did not cause any damage to the hotel, however, eight vehicles, including four RCMP and one BC Ambulance were damaged or completely destroyed in the blaze,” said Smithers RCMP Cpl. Madonna Saunderson.

“This appears to be a targeted attack on emergency services vehicles. Preliminary investigation indicates this is an arson.”











						B.C. emergency vehicles torched in Smithers, police say: ‘This is an arson’  | Globalnews.ca
					

Smithers RCMP is investigating what they believe to be a targeted arson attack that left eight emergency vehicles, including RCMP cruisers and an ambulance, badly damaged.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

…too bad we’ll never find out what happened.  Move on, move on…


----------



## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …too bad we’ll never find out what happened.  Move on, move on…


You’re super salty this morning. What’s up?


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Oct 2022)

20 to 40 people armed with axes hit a site in a coordinated attack causing millions of dollars in damage and injure an RCMP officer.

Now people fire bomb RCMP vehicles and an ambulance in the Sunshine Inn parking lot (town pop 5300).

Can you imagine if that happened with the protest? 3SOR would be air dropping onto the Ottawa River and 1Chicken would be ripping up the 417 in LAV6s.


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Oct 2022)

People dealing with crises need to be able to spitball (and shoot down) even hairbrain ideas without being taken to task for the mere crime of thinking strange things through.  Now, if their estimate is foolish and leads to a foolish conclusion, by all means unload on them.  (Both barrels if they acted on it.)


----------



## Quirky (29 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> 20 to 40 people armed with axes hit a site in a coordinated attack causing millions of dollars in damage and injure an RCMP officer.
> 
> Now people fire bomb RCMP vehicles and an ambulance in the Sunshine Inn parking lot (town pop 5300).
> 
> Can you imagine if that happened with the protest? 3SOR would be air dropping onto the Ottawa River and 1Chicken would be ripping up the 417 in LAV6s.



When the feds hate western oil, and your environment minister is an eco-terrorist and convicted criminal, I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals are secretly happy this is going on...


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> You’re super salty this morning. What’s up?


Yeah, perhaps a bit more so than normal. Unless there was something being done that wasn’t messaged earlier, things like the Coastal Gaslink (the called terrorist) attack and now this…not a dig at all at local L.E., but rather the sense/atmosphere that has been if not nurtured by, then tolerated/ignored by higher levels of government.


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, perhaps a bit more so than normal. Unless there was something being done that wasn’t messaged earlier, things like the Coastal Gaslink (the called terrorist) attack and now this…not a dig at all at local L.E., but rather the sense/atmosphere that has been if not nurtured by, then tolerated/ignored by higher levels of government.


It’s amazing how the severity of an event becomes exponentially less severe in relation to it’s as the crow flies distance from Versailles, isn’t it?


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> When the feds hate western oil, and your environment minister is an eco-terrorist and convicted criminal, I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals are secretly happy this is going on...


I was taking care not to overstate Guilbault’s conduct, I think the literal use of terrorist is an overstatement, but he is a criminally-convicted individual and has extreme views of eco-related action that Canada should take towards his (and likely Trudeau’s and Butts’ personal views) turned national goals…


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, perhaps a bit more so than normal. Unless there was something being done that wasn’t messaged earlier, things like the Coastal Gaslink (the called terrorist) attack and now this…not a dig at all at local L.E., but rather the sense/atmosphere that has been if not nurtured by, then tolerated/ignored by higher levels of government.



This will not be helped at all by the incoming 'activist' premier... not at all:

Incoming premier David Eby likely to shuffle cabinet, craft "activist" budget: political experts​David Eby will be sworn in by Lt.-Gov. Janet Austin at Government House. While no date has been set, many are expecting the transition to take place in the first half of November.









						Incoming premier David Eby likely to shuffle cabinet, craft "activist" budget: political experts
					

David Eby will be sworn in by Lt.-Gov. Janet Austin at Government House.




					vancouversun.com


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## mariomike (29 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Very definitely. The subsequent “rolling thunder” protest a couple months later was subject to very tight traffic control, and swift and decisive public order unit action when they tried to get stupid and blockade Rideau Street. Lessons from convoy were learned and implemented.
> 
> Regarding who was protesting: I can only speak firsthand to what I saw occupying Ottawa, but I’m stand my my earlier assertions: overwhelmingly if not quite exclusively white. The racial breakdown, IMHO, really doesn’t matter- I only mention. It because it’s apprently a factual bone of contention, so FWIW that’s my observation. As for “truckers”, I’ll take that to mean those economically dependent on driving trucks, or/or owning operating same. While there were a few of those on the ground, I’d estimate that they were a small minority of the occupiers and of those who took to the streets on foot, although they provided the physical kit (trucks) to allow the occupation to have disproportionate effect. Some truckers came out for a drive at the start, but most had to get back to work. The core ideological leaders or organizers, and their inner circle - Bauder, Lich, King, Marazzo, et al, were not truckers, but rather were familiar faces in anti-government protest circles. Whatever truckers may have started, they co-opted- and this was not the first convoy to Ottawa some were involved in.
> 
> What hit the ground and occupied Ottawa bore little resemblance to legitimate grievances held by long haul truckers. The occupation was mostly a varied and inchoate assembly of various groups with ideological affinity, catalyze by various pandemic related beliefs and opinions, and united(ish) by a desire to see the current government tossed out on its ass with or without an election.



Thank you for your professional observation and insight. Unlike yourself, I wasn't there. But, from what I read and saw on TV, that was my take on it.


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## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, perhaps a bit more so than normal. Unless there was something being done that wasn’t messaged earlier, things like the Coastal Gaslink (the called terrorist) attack and now this…not a dig at all at local L.E., but rather the sense/atmosphere that has been if not nurtured by, then tolerated/ignored by higher levels of government.


I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess that some rather intensive investigation is ongoing into both events, but they may simply not have enough to go on for laying of charges at this point. There may be a combination of sound OPSEC, and/or deeply entrenched ‘don’t talk to police’ culture in play. I’d be astonished if there weren’t some solid suspects, but crossing the bridge to being prepared to prove it in court is another matter. All of this is speculating though.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

I suspect you’re right, brihard, but I also suspect there are some factors that are already in play that may very well adjust the ‘receptiveness space’ for any such low level LE efforts to be pursued further up the chain.


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## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I suspect you’re right, brihard, but I also suspect there are some factors that are already in play that may very well adjust the ‘receptiveness space’ for any such low level LE efforts to be pursued further up the chain.


I very much doubt it. Investigative teams are generally quite well shielded from outside influence and interference. I have enough exposure to investigations that one might expect to attract such political attention that I feel pretty confident saying this. There’s not really a whole lot of ‘up the chain’ needed to actively investigate in most instances; the hat goes up is mostly just progress reporting. The speed and direction of even pretty significant investigations is generally managed at a (rank) level low enough that it would surprise most of you.


----------



## Quirky (29 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I was taking care not to overstate Guilbault’s conduct, I think the literal use of terrorist is an overstatement, but he is a criminally-convicted individual and has extreme views of eco-related action that Canada should take towards his (and likely Trudeau’s and Butts’ personal views) turned national goals…



The feds silence on these domestic terrorism attacks on O&G infrastructure is enough to conclude they don’t care. Trudeau and company are more than willing to call out crap that happens beyond our borders but there wasn’t so much as a peep on this. This government really needs to go.


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## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> The feds silence on these domestic terrorism attacks on O&G infrastructure is enough to conclude they don’t care. Trudeau and company are more than willing to call out crap that happens beyond our borders but there wasn’t so much as a peep on this. This government really needs to go.











						Canadian gov't condemns violent attack on Coastal GasLink pipeline work camp
					

The Canadian government on Friday condemned an attack on a Coastal GasLink pipeline work camp in northern British Columbia, in which police said assailants brandishing axes threatened workers and damaged equipment.




					www.reuters.com
				





It’s been condemned but not really as prevalent in the news cycle. 

To be honest the opposition does not seem to be keeping this in the news cycle either so I would say  that for now unless something becomes politically advantageous to one side or another it won’t be front and centre.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2022)

Well, another wonderful idea (not) exposed ...

WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy​The conversation between two of Canada’s top cops was about an undercover police operation that would see soldiers disguised Mounties.

 We’ve seen police officers dress up as protesters before but military troops potentially dressing up police officers is something new on Canada’s political and law enforcement landscapes. Yet, despite the Canadian government’s insistence the military would not be deployed to help end last winter’s Freedom Convoy protest blocking streets below Parliament Hill, sneaking the military into the middle of the protest disguised as police was discussed. 

The stunning revelation about this clandestine consideration came to light Thursday at the Justice Paul Rouleau Inquiry into the merit of the Trudeau government invoking the Emergencies Act when documents revealed a Feb. 13, 2022 text message conversation between OPP Commissioner Thomas Carrique and RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. 

While there was a suggestion the conversation should move to a more secure platform that doesn’t create a historical record, what was on record and entered as evidence was reminiscent of something from deep-state-style espionage novels instead of a country that prides itself on its Charter of Rights and Freedoms. 

But the trucker’s Freedom Convoy has put the charter, freedom and the very definition of criminal behaviour to the test. BURNING QUESTIONS: Testimony doesn't support Trudeau's claim of convoy's national threa

Thursday was that two weeks into the ongoing protest, and one day before Trudeau invoked the Emergencies Act for the first time in Canada’s history, Lucki asked Carrique for his thoughts on the use of Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) for various roles to help manage the standoff with protesting truckers.

Lucki texted: “Could you see a role for CAF in any of this… For example, after we secure and all is back to ‘normal,’ maybe keeping sites secure or patrolling unmanned POE’s (Public Order Emergency) etc.”

Carrique responded: “The best step for government – I would rather not see CAF playing a role off of govt properties. We could use special constables controlled by police for unarmed patrols and an immediate long term commitment (s) to adequate policing resources to both prevent and respond to these events.”

 Lucki responded: “It’s funny you say that, because I was thinking maybe we could use CAF but in our uniforms as unarmed Auxiliaries or Spl (special) Csts. (constables) to supplement us … in teams.” 

It is unclear whether or not this ever happened.

 The RCMP or Prime Minister’s office declined to comment Friday. 

But a statement from the military to the Toronto Sun said: “Minister (Anita) Anand and the DND/CAF have been clear in stating that we had no plans for the Canadian Armed Forces to be involved in law enforcement in this situation.”

On Feb. 4, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said, “One has to be very, very cautious before deploying military in situations engaging Canadians,” before adding, “It’s not something you enter into lightly.”

Yet the text conversation between the RCMP and OPP is the fourth known instance of the military mentioned pertaining to concerns of civil unrest during the coronavirus pandemic.









						WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy
					

The conversation between two of Canada's top cops was about an undercover police operation that would see soldiers disguised Mounties.




					torontosun.com


----------



## Quirky (29 Oct 2022)

Who cares if they considered air dropping LAVs from C-17s, it never happened.


----------



## GK .Dundas (29 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Who cares if they considered air dropping LAVs from C-17s, it never happened.


?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Oct 2022)

@daftandbarmy  they were just "brainstorming" according to some here, it was NBD 😄


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> @daftandbarmy  they were just "brainstorming" according to some here, it was NBD 😄



That's correct; random people with no authority thinking about asking for the CAF to be used doesn't mean it was ever actually discussed, but the RCMP commisioner really should know better than to even think that is an option.

But we get it, it's all Trudeau's fault that someone in the government does something you don't like.


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## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

some think that texting with ideas amounts to the same thing as a massive OP plan set and ready to go.  Heck just her suggesting it must mean the troops were already being fitted with special constable uniforms …


----------



## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, another wonderful idea (not) exposed ...
> 
> WARMINGTON: Canada's top cop considered soldiers undercover as Mounties at Freedom Convoy​The conversation between two of Canada’s top cops was about an undercover police operation that would see soldiers disguised Mounties.
> 
> ...



Yup, several of us discussed it this morning.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> @daftandbarmy  they were just "brainstorming" according to some here, it was NBD 😄



Your further replies were conspicuously absent after a few of us articulated our thoughts on it in some detail.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> That's correct; random people with no authority thinking about asking for the CAF to be used doesn't mean it was ever actually discussed, but *the RCMP commisioner really should know better than to even think that is an option.*
> 
> But we get it, *it's all Trudeau's fault that someone in the government does something you don't like.*


Well he is the Prime Minister, so yes, it is his fault when someone in the Government does something wrong.

And yes the RCMP Commissioner really should also know better 😎


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup, several of us discussed it this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> Your further replies were conspicuously absent after a few of us articulated our thoughts on it in some detail.


I've got more thoughts on this.  Not a lot of time to comment atm.  I'll roll larger reply up for you tomorrow when I'm off call.

Needless to say, I would expect the Commissioner of the RCMP to refrain from suggesting such plainly stupid ideas.


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## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I've got more thoughts on this.  Not a lot of time to comment atm.  I'll roll larger reply up for you tomorrow when I'm off call.
> 
> Needless to say, I would expect the Commissioner of the RCMP to refrain from suggesting such plainly stupid ideas.


Fair re: when you have more time

Like Remius, I distinguish between essentially private (though disclosable) one on one conceptual spitballing between two senior police executives, and advancing ideas for serious considerations. The messages, read in context, don’t appear to be suggesting of using CAF for breaking up the protest, but rather for auxiliary roles in support of, and to bolster the strength of, overly taxed police and, apparently, border officials. It appears to have not gone past the point of ‘a passing notion’.


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## Kat Stevens (29 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> some think that texting with ideas amounts to the same thing as a massive OP plan set and ready to go.  Heck just her suggesting it must mean the troops were already being fitted with special constable uniforms …


Texting with _*unacceptable *_ideas will get you a giant governmental greasy linger inserted deeply up your third point of contact. Depends who’s team you play for, I suppose.


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## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Texting with _*unacceptable *_ideas will get you a giant governmental greasy linger inserted deeply up your third point of contact. Depends who’s team you play for, I suppose.


Has nothing to do with any team.  Has to do with making mountains out of molehills. I would agree that the idea as I said seems odd (the uniforms and special constable status) and if a plan had actually been proposed, submitted and prepared for I’d be more concerned.  This looks more like musing and brainstorming ideas.  Good and bad. 

At that time plenty of people everywhere where musing on what role the CAF would/could or couldn’t provide if the EA or aid to civil power/authority was enacted.


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## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> But we get it, it's all Trudeau's fault that someone in the government does something you don't like.


Mmmmmmm….pretty sure it’s still Harper’s fault. 😆


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## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Has nothing to do with any team.  Has to do with making mountains out of molehills. I would agree that the idea as I said seems odd (the uniforms and special constable status) and if a plan had actually been proposed, submitted and prepared for I’d be more concerned.  This looks more like musing and brainstorming ideas.  Good and bad.
> 
> At that time plenty of people everywhere where musing on what role the CAF would/could or couldn’t provide if the EA or aid to civil power/authority was enacted.



The fact that the RCMP's boss even considered some of these absurdities speaks volumes about how unqualified she is for the job, I would propose.


----------



## childs56 (30 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> When the feds hate western oil, and your environment minister is an eco-terrorist and convicted criminal, I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberals are secretly happy this is going on...


I wouldn't doubt they paid them to do it.


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The fact that the RCMP's boss even considered some of these absurdities speaks volumes about how unqualified she is for the job, I would propose.


I can accept that as a valid argument against her level of qualification or where that should be.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The fact that the RCMP's boss even considered some of these absurdities speaks volumes about how unqualified she is for the job, I would propose.


Which is part of the reason for my sarcastic tone.


----------



## childs56 (30 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> I wouldn't doubt they paid them to do it.


They got caught paying actors for other protests so not trolling.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> They got caught paying actors for other protests so not trolling.


Who is they and when did they get caught?

And then is the Freedom Convoy a bottom up driven expression of political disatisfaction, or some kind of 'deep state' created false flag operation? It can't be both.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Oct 2022)

And in a related note, here is a good example of a situation where crowd behaviour is unpredictable and can go really wrong very quickly; and probably started with a small group of people but then quickly spread. Riots can start and spread pretty easily, so the small numbers of nutjobs who wanted to overthrow the government could have gotten a large number rumbling.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/south-korea-crowd-surge-1.6634610



> South Korea grieving after more than 150 die in Halloween crowd surge​*Death toll could grow, with 24 people in critical condition*​
> Concerned relatives raced to hospitals in search of their loved ones Sunday as South Korea mourned the deaths of more than 150 people, mostly in their 20s and 30s, who got trapped and crushed after a huge Halloween party crowd surged into a narrow alley in a nightlife district in Seoul.
> 
> Witnesses said the crowd surge Saturday night in the Itaewon district caused "a hell-like" chaos as people fell on each other "like dominoes." Some people were bleeding from their noses and mouths while being given CPR, witnesses said, while others clad in Halloween costumes continued to sing and dance nearby, possibly without knowing the severity of the situation.
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> And in a related note, here is a good example of a situation where crowd behaviour is unpredictable and can go really wrong very quickly; and probably started with a small group of people but then quickly spread. Riots can start and spread pretty easily, so the small numbers of nutjobs who wanted to overthrow the government could have gotten a large number rumbling.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/south-korea-crowd-surge-1.6634610



Um... kinda not going to happen on Parliament Hill in February, I'm guessing.

Good crowd management - unlike in S. Korea - can mitigate alot of dramas....


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## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> They got caught paying actors for other protests so not trolling.


Who, when and where?


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Um... kinda not going to happen on Parliament Hill in February, I'm guessing.
> 
> Good crowd management - unlike in S. Korea - can mitigate alot of dramas....


There was some earlier discussion of how crowd psychology can go horribly wrong, and people in crowds behave differently than how they would as individuals.

Different context for sure, but the protesters were packed in relatively close with the trucks restricting the available room and creating choke points.


----------



## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

Does anyone remember that the convoy crew tried to establish a similar presence at Queen’s Park in Toronto? No you don’t because the cops stopped that cold before it could cause an issue. 

But the OPS screwed the pooch and here we are.


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## mariomike (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Does anyone remember that the convoy crew tried to establish a similar presence at Queen’s Park in Toronto? No you don’t because the cops stopped that cold before it could cause an issue.
> 
> But the OPS screwed the pooch and here we are.



Good thing too. Unlike Ottawa Transit, TTC does not have heavy wreckers.


----------



## dapaterson (31 Oct 2022)

Things getting spicy in cross-examination of the former Ottawa Police chief.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587092257110458371

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587093418030899207


----------



## lenaitch (31 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The fact that the RCMP's boss even considered some of these absurdities speaks volumes about how unqualified she is for the job, I would propose.


I'm not reading a lot into it.  It struck me as a conversation between two people, one of which - at least - having an incomplete understanding of the NDA.  If it was a full court press by a command team with SMEs, legal, etc. trying to sell an idea I would have been concerned.

I wouldn't expect a police leader to have a working knowledge of the NDA any more than I would expect the CDS to have a working knowledge of our Police Services Act.  The foundation of what you know is learned at the coalface; most of what follows is enhancement and/or supervisory/leadership.  I couldn't find a detailed breakdown of Lucki's experience but it seems her actual law enforcement delivery experience was rather short. 

Don't conflate a lofty position with a broad and encompassing first-hand knowledge of what they command.  The OPP had a Commissioner who's sum total of actual law enforcement delivery was about seven years in a traffic detachment.


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## lenaitch (31 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Good thing too. Unlike Ottawa Transit, TTC does not have heavy wreckers.


Well, the TPS does, if you get my drift.


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## childs56 (31 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Who, when and where?


Dogwood group, Transmountain/ Northern Gateway, Energy East etc Industry protests Federal/ Provincial funding.
The CBC spreading false information about foreign funding and support for the convoy protests.
Pembina Institute gov funding paid actors numerous protests over the years,
Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, Federal Funding against Oil Sands
David Suzuki Foundation, paid protesters and activists funding from government against Logging, Mining and Oil and Gas projects.
The Government supports with grants numerous groups who directly take action against resource Industry, that funding has increased since 2016.
The RCMP bombed an oilsite in Alberta on October 14, 1998, on the instructions of the Alberta Energy Co
These are a few. You can research directly their involvement if you have the time and actual will to open the eyes. 

This does not bring into the account of Foreign Government funding and influence brought against Canada at various protests.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Nov 2022)

At CBC.ca, Trudeau is quoted: "The suspension of peoples' rights is something that you should only do in the most exceptional circumstances, and I really hope that all politicians call out the overuse of the notwithstanding clause to suspend peoples' rights and freedoms."

Change a couple of words: "The suspension of peoples' rights is something that you should only do in the most exceptional circumstances, and I really hope that all politicians call out the overuse of the Emergencies Act to suspend peoples' rights and freedoms."


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not reading a lot into it.  It struck me as a conversation between two people, one of which - at least - having an incomplete understanding of the NDA.  If it was a full court press by a command team with SMEs, legal, etc. trying to sell an idea I would have been concerned.
> 
> I wouldn't expect a police leader to have a working knowledge of the NDA any more than I would expect the CDS to have a working knowledge of our Police Services Act.  The foundation of what you know is learned at the coalface; most of what follows is enhancement and/or supervisory/leadership.  I couldn't find a detailed breakdown of Lucki's experience but it seems her actual law enforcement delivery experience was rather short.
> 
> Don't conflate a lofty position with a broad and encompassing first-hand knowledge of what they command.  The OPP had a Commissioner who's sum total of actual law enforcement delivery was about seven years in a traffic detachment.



I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the head of the national police force to have a basic understanding of the role of the CAF in any 'aid to civil power' scenario, as it should be part of the basic background understanding for any major disaster response. She's been in the job since 2018 so it should have come up a number of times by now, especially with the various disaster relief efforts and evacuations.

She doesn't generally inspire confidence, but maybe she's awesome in person and just doesn't translate well into public appearances.


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## Navy_Pete (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> At CBC.ca, Trudeau is quoted: "The suspension of peoples' rights is something that you should only do in the most exceptional circumstances, and I really hope that all politicians call out the overuse of the notwithstanding clause to suspend peoples' rights and freedoms."
> 
> Change a couple of words: "The suspension of peoples' rights is something that you should only do in the most exceptional circumstances, and I really hope that all politicians call out the overuse of the Emergencies Act to suspend peoples' rights and freedoms."


False equivalence; the ON government has a number of tools they haven't even looked at yet, and they are pre-empting any strike action before it's even started, and will have long reaching implications for thousands of people with no recourse.  They could have gone into arbitration, kept negotiating, etc before looking at this option.

The emergency act wasn't brought in until several weeks into it, was limited in scope, and was rolled up pretty quickly with a public inquiry.

I think the demand for an 11.7% raise is nuts, and 'return to work' legislation has happened before well into the strike, but this is like nuking the thing before it starts.


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## FSTO (1 Nov 2022)

I think people's minds have been made up on invoking the Emergencies Act. That is certainly the mood I get on this site. And no amount of evidence brought forward from either cohort is going to change the other cohorts opinions.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Nov 2022)

If you think it's a false equivalence because of the details you missed the point entirely, which is to highlight how selectively politicians deploy criticism.


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## brihard (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> At CBC.ca, Trudeau is quoted: "The suspension of peoples' rights is something that you should only do in the most exceptional circumstances, and I really hope that all politicians call out the overuse of the notwithstanding clause to suspend peoples' rights and freedoms."
> 
> Change a couple of words: "The suspension of peoples' rights is something that you should only do in the most exceptional circumstances, and I really hope that all politicians call out the overuse of the Emergencies Act to suspend peoples' rights and freedoms."


The Emergencies Act did not inherently supersede rights. It explicitly remained subject to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That’s right in the Act; it has no Charter override.

The comparison being made is to Doug Ford’s intended use of legislation to trample collective bargaining rights, and his use of the Notwithstanding Clause to do so. Any invocation of the Notwithstanding Clause  is explicitly, and by definition, superseding rights- it means the government acknowledges that what they want to do would NOT constitute “reasonable limitations” under s. 1, that can be “demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society”. Doug Ford has in effect said “we will specifically suppress your protected Charter right to protectively bargain, and we know the only way we can do so is by using a mechanism that lets us set that right aside without having to defend our actions legally”.


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## Navy_Pete (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If you think it's a false equivalence because of the details you missed the point entirely, which is to highlight how selectively politicians deploy criticism.


Context also matters.

Shooting someone in self defence is okay; in other cases it can be murder.

Invoking the not withstanding clause to prevent a possible future strike instead of negotiating is not the same thing at all. It's basically lazy, and they are taking away people's legal right to strike before they even exercised it, which is a really important tool when dealing with the governments and large companies given the large power imbalance. A more comparable context would be invoking the Emergency Act in Jan when the protest was gathering before they even started their trip across.

I don't know if the Emergency Act was necessary, but ignoring the context of the two situations is just silly. Both are supposed to be 'last resort' items, the ON PC approach on this one is more of 'we've tried nothing and are all out of ideas'. Also, it had already been declared an illegal gathering, well after the point where people had crossed the line from exercising their right to protest and were infringing on other's basic rights.

From what I've seen, it seems like better local leadership and coordination with other forces was required generally in Ottawa at the upper levels, but maybe the EA gave them the tools/topcover to actually get the towing capacity, so maybe a wash on that. Not a fan of it being used to freeze people's accounts either, and doesn't seem to have necessarily even targeted the right accounts, but doesn't necessarily mean it didn't give them tools they didn't have.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Nov 2022)

Your counterargument is to quibble over the exact pathway by which a right is abridged?  Knock yourself out.

[Add: Moral of recent stories: not only should stuff be written down, it should be written down carefully.  Don't get panties wound up when someone stretches customary or open-ended rules.]


----------



## Lumber (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Your counterargument is to quibble over the exact pathway by which a right is abridged?  Knock yourself out.


Yes. Do you really live so black and white?

Trampling someone's rights through the use of force is worse than trampling someone's right through the use of force through a carefully constructed process that itself has checks and balances (limits) to its use. Similarly, trampling someone's rights through a legal process that has not yet met a reasonable substantiation is worse than one that has met a threshold.

Or a more specific, albeit extreme, example: two people have their mobility rights taken away. One is a person who's been put in prison after due process, the other is someone who's been abducted. Are you saying both are equally bad, because the pathway that their right was "abridged" doesn't matter?


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Nov 2022)

Both scenarios have processes (objective); both scenarios have limits (objective); both scenarios are supposed to be "reasonable" (subjective).  [By "scenarios" I mean use of the EA and use of the "notwithstanding clause.]

[Add: the "notwithstanding" clause is designed to be pre-emptive; it's not particularly suited to being a last resort.
I despise the "notwithstanding" clause, but the only way to get rid of it will be to use it until people are convinced it was a bad idea.]


----------



## lenaitch (1 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the head of the national police force to have a basic understanding of the role of the CAF in any 'aid to civil power' scenario, as it should be part of the basic background understanding for any major disaster response. She's been in the job since 2018 so it should have come up a number of times by now, especially with the various disaster relief efforts and evacuations.
> 
> She doesn't generally inspire confidence, but maybe she's awesome in person and just doesn't translate well into public appearances.


"Basic understanding" perhaps, and I suppose where that line is, is somewhat gray.  The NDA is 288 sections.  The Criminal Code is 850 and I would challenge any cop, lawyer or judge to have an in-depth knowledge of every part of it.

As a former boss said (not Commissioner but damned close); 'I have people for that'.  Quite frankly, for any Chief or Commissioner to get involved in the nitty gritty of an emergency response strikes me as misplaced.  Their executive role is to facilitate, enable and empower.


----------



## Remius (2 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> "Basic understanding" perhaps, and I suppose where that line is, is somewhat gray.  The NDA is 288 sections.  The Criminal Code is 850 and I would challenge any cop, lawyer or judge to have an in-depth knowledge of every part of it.
> 
> As a former boss said (not Commissioner but damned close); 'I have people for that'.  Quite frankly, for any Chief or Commissioner to get involved in the nitty gritty of an emergency response strikes me as misplaced.  Their executive role is to facilitate, enable and empower.


Or the flip side, since we might partake in any aid to civil power, do we expect our CDS to have in depth knowledge of the criminal code or any of the police services acts we might have some hand on the rare chance that might come into effect?  I’m going to go ahead and doubt the CDS is tracking much in any police act other than knowing they might exist.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Or the flip side, since we might partake in any aid to civil power, do we expect our CDS to have in depth knowledge of the criminal code or any of the police services acts we might have some hand on the rare chance that might come into effect?  I’m going to go ahead and doubt the CDS is tracking much in any police act other than knowing they might exist.



I'm guessing that the CDS knows what he's doing.

His political masters? Not so much...


----------



## brihard (2 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm guessing that the CDS knows what he's doing.
> 
> His political masters? Not so much...


I suspect the CDS would know it’s time to talk to his people and draw on technical expertise he can’t be expected to have himself.


----------



## CBH99 (2 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the head of the national police force to have a basic understanding of the role of the CAF in any 'aid to civil power' scenario, as it should be part of the basic background understanding for any major disaster response. She's been in the job since 2018 so it should have come up a number of times by now, especially with the various disaster relief efforts and evacuations.
> 
> She doesn't generally inspire confidence, but maybe she's awesome in person and just doesn't translate well into public appearances.


Given she’s been on the job since 2018, I’d say she _comes across_ as a bit of a dud.  

These days I find the morale of the country to be in the tank, because the people out in charge of our various national institutions leave something to be desired.  

In her case though, she has a plate more loaded than most of her colleagues in charge of municipal agencies.  She has officers literally across the country, several investigations being international at any given time, has police officers deploy overseas, constant contact negotiations with different partners, negotiations between members & their respective body for pay increases, national security threats, etc etc

I think as the leader of the national police service, part of that job _IS TO INSPIRE CONFIDENCE_ 

Her agency doesn’t just represent Canada & Canadians, but her agency has a unique opportunity to trample citizens rights & thwart one of the pillars of our society, if things aren’t done a certain way. 

So let’s hope she’s more competent sounding off-camera.


----------



## brihard (2 Nov 2022)

_PRes recruiting has entered the chat_

Also, mods- might be worth a thread split? The Ontario education/strike tangent will likely continue, as will the convoy talk.


----------



## lenaitch (2 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Given she’s been on the job since 2018, I’d say she _comes across_ as a bit of a dud.
> 
> These days I find the morale of the country to be in the tank, because the people out in charge of our various national institutions leave something to be desired.
> 
> ...


I won't get into whether she is competent or "a dud".  Although it is a valued asset these days, how one comes off in public settings does not always necessarily reflect how competent an executive leader they are.  I'm sure many of us know folks in senior positions who never met a microphone they didn't like but that was the extent of their charm.

No doubt she has more on her plate than most other police leaders, but she also has a bigger command team and bureaucratic support structure to match.  

In my initial comment, I qualified that her musing about possibly putting CAF members in police uniforms (or whatever it was) might have simply been her spitballing in the absence of a full understanding of the NDA, and in the absence of input from her command team and civilian advisors.  If it had been done in the mess/lounge with staff members, we would never have known. 

I could be wrong in the federal setting, but I am guessing that federal-provincial/municipal policing contracts as well as employee collective agreements are handled by Treasury Board, with advice and input by RCMP staff.


----------



## CBH99 (3 Nov 2022)

You are absolutely correct.  I just re-read what I wrote, and it didn’t convey what I wanted to say very well.  

She does have a lot on her plate.  And while she does have more supporting assets available to her to handle such a large & diverse organization, I’m sure there were a few very qualified people who opted for the spot — and she’s the one who got it.  

So I imagine she is more qualified/competent/experienced, etc than she sometimes comes across as the odd time I’ve watched her speak.  

(I initially said “let’s hope she’s more…blah blah blah.  But the above is more what I meant.)


----------



## brihard (3 Nov 2022)

Don’t forget that Lucki was a deep dip. She was an Assistant Commissioner commanding the RCMP training academy. She commanded two districts (part of a province), but never commanded an operational division. They bypassed five or six Deputy Commissioners to select her. There’s some significant senior executive level experience that she likely never got.


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Don’t forget that Lucki was a deep dip. She was an Assistant Commissioner commanding the RCMP training academy. She commanded two districts (part of a province), but never commanded an operational division. They bypassed five or six Deputy Commissioners to select her. *There’s some significant senior executive level experience that she likely never got.*


And also…to paraphrase Monty Python, “[she] doesn’t ‘ave shit all over [‘er]…”

Milquetoast w no career divots may have been a not-insignificant factor in her ascension…


----------



## TacticalTea (3 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Don’t forget that Lucki was a deep dip. She was an Assistant Commissioner commanding the RCMP training academy. She commanded two districts (part of a province), but never commanded an operational division. They bypassed five or six Deputy Commissioners to select her. There’s some significant senior executive level experience that she likely never got.


Why, do you figure, was that the case?


----------



## lenaitch (3 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Why, do you figure, was that the case?


Hmmm, let me think about that for a nanosecond . . .


----------



## brihard (3 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Why, do you figure, was that the case?


I won’t speculate on that. I’d be WAY outside my arcs pretending I understand executive level HR stuff.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Hmmm, let me think about that for a nanosecond . . .


I thought about it too. I won’t share those thoughts here.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Nov 2022)

Objectivity and merit are harsh taskmasters to minds obsessed by abstract notions of fairness.


----------



## Remius (3 Nov 2022)

Some numbers about the convoy funding.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588171895651942400


----------



## Navy_Pete (3 Nov 2022)

So $6-10M coming from outside Canada from various sources?


----------



## Kat Stevens (3 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So $6-10M coming from outside Canada from various sources?


I bet it wasn't the Sierra Club or Tides Foundation.


----------



## Remius (3 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So $6-10M coming from outside Canada from various sources?


Looks like it yeah.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And also…to paraphrase Monty Python, “[she] _doesn’t_ ‘ave shit all over [‘er]…”


Well, _didn't_.


----------



## Haggis (3 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Don’t forget that Lucki was a deep dip. She was an Assistant Commissioner commanding the RCMP training academy. She commanded two districts (part of a province), but never commanded an operational division. They bypassed five or six Deputy Commissioners to select her. There’s some significant senior executive level experience that she likely never got.


Deep selection is rare, but not as rare as some may think.  There have been several instances in the CAF and OGDs that have worked out better than this one. 


Good2Golf said:


> Milquetoast w no career divots may have been a not-insignificant factor in her ascension…


Given some of the less than stellar Commissioners that preceded her, that would be a deciding factor for sure.  As would her gender because, well, it's 2018.


----------



## winds_13 (3 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Yes. Do you really live so black and white?
> 
> Trampling someone's rights through the use of force is worse than trampling someone's right through the use of force through a carefully constructed process that itself has checks and balances (limits) to its use. Similarly, trampling someone's rights through a legal process that has not yet met a reasonable substantiation is worse than one that has met a threshold.
> 
> Or a more specific, albeit extreme, example: two people have their mobility rights taken away. One is a person who's been put in prison after due process, the other is someone who's been abducted. Are you saying both are equally bad, because the pathway that their right was "abridged" doesn't matter?


How about an even more extreme and specific example: millions of Canadians had their mobility rights taken away for choosing not to get vaccinated against COVID19 regardless of their individual risk level and lacking proven efficacy to prevent virus transmission. Does it make it right because it was done through legal means, even if there was no parliamentary discussion on the policy? Do you think it was a reasonable measure, even if it was not considered to be so by any other Western democracy?


----------



## lenaitch (3 Nov 2022)

^^I'm not even going to bother.


----------



## brihard (3 Nov 2022)

winds_13 said:


> How about an even more extreme and specific example: millions of Canadians had their mobility rights taken away for choosing not to get vaccinated against COVID19 regardless of their individual risk level and lacking proven efficacy to prevent virus transmission. Does it make it right because it was done through legal means, even if there was no parliamentary discussion on the policy? Do you think it was a reasonable measure, even if it was not considered to be so by any other Western democracy?



I’m not going to wade in on this much, save to say that the courts considered the mobilities rights sections of the Charter in the context of COVID restrictions in Taylor v. Newfoundland and Labrador, 2020 NLSC 125 (CanLII), https://canlii.ca/t/j9p6v

The courts held that, although mobility rights were infringed in the facts of that case, the restrictions imposed by the province of Newfoundland were saved by s. 1 as a reasonable limitation. I’m not aware of any successful court challenge to federal quarantine requirements for citizens re-entering Canada, either.


----------



## winds_13 (4 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not going to wade in on this much, save to say that the courts considered the mobilities rights sections of the Charter in the context of COVID restrictions in Taylor v. Newfoundland and Labrador, 2020 NLSC 125 (CanLII), https://canlii.ca/t/j9p6v
> 
> The courts held that, although mobility rights were infringed in the facts of that case, the restrictions imposed by the province of Newfoundland were saved by s. 1 as a reasonable limitation. I’m not aware of any successful court challenge to federal quarantine requirements for citizens re-entering Canada, either.


I wasn't referring to quarantine requirements but rather the domestic travel ban that prevented unvacvinated Canadians from boarding planes or trains for over half a year. It still has not been cancelled but is currently "suspended", with politicians having signalled they may bring it back in effect. All the while, vaccinated individuals were able to attend concert/sports venues with thousands of people, despite the available vaccines not having been proven effective for preventing spread.


----------



## Quirky (4 Nov 2022)

winds_13 said:


> I wasn't referring to quarantine requirements but rather the domestic travel ban that prevented unvacvinated Canadians from boarding planes or trains for over half a year. It still has not been cancelled but is currently "suspended", with politicians having signalled they may bring it back in effect. All the while, vaccinated individuals were able to attend concert/sports venues with thousands of people, despite the available vaccines not having been proven effective for preventing spread.



Yes but think of all the people we saved by giving the most vulnerable a few more years of life, allegedly, nevermind all the elderly we segregated ‘for their own safety’ during their last few months of life only to have them die alone. Covid did a terrible job of purging this planet of overpopulation and sickness. It happens everywhere in nature and won’t be the last time.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2022)

You folks do know topic this was split OFF from the covid thread??
Just sayin'.....


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2022)

winds_13 said:


> I wasn't referring to quarantine requirements but rather the domestic travel ban that prevented unvacvinated Canadians from boarding planes or trains for over half a year. It still has not been cancelled but is currently "suspended", with politicians having signalled they may bring it back in effect. All the while, vaccinated individuals were able to attend concert/sports venues with thousands of people, despite the available vaccines not having been proven effective for preventing spread.


Yeah, that’s not what mobility rights means, but anyway I’ll otherwise pipe down and wait for the court decisions. Jurisprudence suggests they will not support your interpretation.


----------



## FSTO (4 Nov 2022)

So listening (a bit) to the convoy "organizers" this week I'm now convinced that we saw the Canadian Production of the *Mouse that Roared. 









						The Mouse That Roared - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



*


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> So listening (a bit) to the convoy "organizers" this week I'm now convinced that we saw the Canadian Production of the *Mouse that Roared.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was quite a rogues gallery…


----------



## winds_13 (4 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Yeah, that’s not what mobility rights means, but anyway I’ll otherwise pipe down and wait for the court decisions. Jurisprudence suggests they will not support your interpretation.


Is imprisoning or abducting someone removing their mobility rights then? You never bothered to comment on Lumber's statement, which I had quoted.

Removing someone's ability to travel interprovincially is a denial of mobility rights. So is creating legislation to prevent them from working for the government or government regulated industries, while signaling to all employers in the country to follow suit. Are you arguing that unvaccinated Canadians were fully able to move between provinces and gain a livelihood? ...or was government legislation preventing/restricting this? Also what was deemed "reasonable" action in May 2020, at the start of the pandemic when little was known about how the virus transmits, is arguably different from what should have been considered reasonable in October 2021.


----------



## FSTO (4 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Was quite a rogues gallery…


The clown show that came to town and the clown show that received them doesn't show a good light on this being a serious country.


----------



## GK .Dundas (4 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> The clown show that came to town and the clown show that received them doesn't show a good light on this being a serious country.


You'd have to prove that we actually are a serious country....  good luck with that.


----------



## Quirky (4 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> The clown show that came to town and the clown show that received them doesn't show a good light on this being a serious country.



Well look at the two clowns, Trudeau and Singh, who are ruining running this country.


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Is imprisoning or abducting someone removing their mobility rights then? You never bothered to comment on Lumber's statement, which I had quoted.
> 
> Removing someone's ability to travel interprovincially is a denial of mobility rights. So is creating legislation to prevent them from working for the government or government regulated industries, while signaling to all employers in the country to follow suit. Are you arguing that unvaccinated Canadians were fully able to move between provinces and gain a livelihood? ...or was government legislation preventing/restricting this? Also what was deemed "reasonable" action in May 2020, at the start of the pandemic when little was known about how the virus transmits, is arguably different from what should have been considered reasonable in October 2021.


Arguing this with you is not worth my time. I’ll watch the court cases.


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

winds_13 said:


> Is imprisoning or abducting someone removing their mobility rights then? You never bothered to comment on Lumber's statement, which I had quoted.
> 
> Removing someone's ability to travel interprovincially is a denial of mobility rights. So is creating legislation to prevent them from working for the government or government regulated industries, while signaling to all employers in the country to follow suit. Are you arguing that unvaccinated Canadians were fully able to move between provinces and gain a livelihood? ...or was government legislation preventing/restricting this? Also what was deemed "reasonable" action in May 2020, at the start of the pandemic when little was known about how the virus transmits, is arguably different from what should have been considered reasonable in October 2021.


Conditions of employment are set by the employer. If being vaccinated is part of that then so be it.  No different than any other condition of employment.  You can either meet those conditions or not.   You can be denied use of any mode of regulated modes of transportation for a variety of reasons.  Planes, trains etc.  If the conditions of use are reasonable then you must meet those conditions or find alternatives. 

As stated, these things have all been held up in court against various challenges.


----------



## mariomike (4 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Conditions of employment are set by the employer. If being vaccinated is part of that then so be it.



The guys who pick up our garbage are vaxxed, or unemployed.

You can't even shovel horse, cow, goat, sheep, pig or chicken sh$t at the city farm without being vaxxed.

( Yeah, I knew a guy they sent there for DUI, till he got his licence back. Said if it wasn't for the pay cut, he would have stayed there.   )

We even had to get vaxed annually for influenza.


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

__





						Abacus Data |   Millions Following Emergencies Act Commission. Most are Concluding Ottawa Had No Better Choice
					






					abacusdata.ca
				




Some data on reactions to the inquiry and what has come out so far.  Western numbers are bit surprising.


----------



## childs56 (4 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to wonder where the funding comes from. I found a couple of the major National survey groups who were "impartial" actually using incorrect data to support the people funding them. Their information led to Canadians being mislead on those subject which had negative impact across the country. Sometimes these surveys are leaning more to support JT and less to tell the truth.


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Nov 2022)

Nothing surprises me about the willingness of Canadians - or many other peoples - to tolerate a heavy hand.  The hard part of liberty is guaranteeing it against the backsliding selfishness of the people who benefit from it.


----------



## brihard (7 Nov 2022)

If anyone’s interested, here’s a pretty short and clear judge’s written decision on some criminal charges arising out of the final weekend. Basically dude went up a police link on Sparks Street, tried some Pseudolegal nonsense with officers, and eventually sat down when told to move. He was arrested and charged for obstruction and mischief. Convicted on the obstruction, acquitted on the mischief (he was found to have a insufficiently proven connection to the larger protest).

The written decision gives some good insight into what the judge considered. Tellingly, the judge made a point of stating unequivocally stating his belief that the convoy writ large was committing the offence of mischief:



> *[27] *There is, in my mind, no doubt that the Freedom Convoy protesters committed the offence of mischief by way of interfering with the use and enjoyment of property of the residents of downtown Ottawa. It seems to be a misconception of those from outside this city that Ottawa only consists of federal institutions. In reality, the downtown is a thriving area occupied by countless middle-class and working-class people, who at that time were deprived of even the most basic use and enjoyment of their property – the right to a peaceful night’s sleep and the right to move freely in their own neighbourhood.
> 
> *[28] *According to the evidence before me, the Freedom Convoy mischief – the interference with property by blocking the streets, creating excessive noise and harassing residents – began on January 28. By February 19 police were regaining control of the streets.​




Anyway, not a long read, but an informative one. I believe this is the first written decision regarding criminal charges arising out of the “Freedom Convoy” in Ottawa. And as an Easter egg for those familiar with it, _Meads v. Meads_ makes an appearance.



			https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2022/2022oncj502/2022oncj502.html


----------



## Lumber (8 Nov 2022)

This is an old story but I just read about it and it's got me fired up. This is for any f**head who has ever uttered the words "Trudeau is a tyrant" or that "we live in a dictatorship" in Canada. Kindly go f** you hat. We have it so well here:

I Australian women to sue Qatar over forced invasive examinations at Doha airport


----------



## Furniture (8 Nov 2022)

An interesting take from a guy about do invoke the EA... 

'You shouldn't need more tools' to clear bridge protest in Windsor: Trudeau to Ford


----------



## CBH99 (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was anybody here ever contacted and surveyed?  Anybody personally know someone who was?  (Not like “my buddy’s friend’s dad was called…)

I read a lot of comments on the various YouTube videos about Trudeau, the hearings, PP, and Canadian politics in general.  I listen when people are discussing it around the metaphorical water cooler, and have chats of my own with various colleagues & friends. 

-  nobody I know has ever been surveyed about this kind of subject matter, ever.  

(But I kid you not I ended up doing a survey for 25 minutes about f**king toothpaste last weekend!)

-  nobody that I know is a fan of Trudeau.  

Weather in speaking to family in Ontario, Friends and colleagues here in Alberta, or various associates across the mountains in BC… everybody is frustrated by his lack of ability to answer questions, and everybody finds him to be inherently dishonest.  


Maybe the surveys are accurate, actually survey real people, and I’m just out of touch.  That’s very very possible.  

The Canadians were sick and tired of the ridiculous Covid restrictions at the time.  So frustrated that people from all over the country converged on Ottawa to cause disruption, and be such a headache that the government couldn’t ignore the pulse of the people any longer.  

Sure, there’s always some idiots in every group.  There were things done during the protest that the public very much disapproves of.  However, I don’t think the public is “in hindsight” supportive of Trudeau invoking the EA… especially now but so much more information has come out.  

My 2 cents


----------



## lenaitch (8 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Was anybody here ever contacted and surveyed?  Anybody personally know someone who was?  (Not like “my buddy’s friend’s dad was called…)
> 
> I read a lot of comments on the various YouTube videos about Trudeau, the hearings, PP, and Canadian politics in general.  I listen when people are discussing it around the metaphorical water cooler, and have chats of my own with various colleagues & friends.
> 
> ...


In all of my (71) years, I've been contacted by a survey or polling firm, or been tagged for an online survey outside of consumer topics a grand total of once.  I realize there are demographic profiles that they create, but I'll just chalk it up to odds and number.  That and we seldom answer a caller on the display that we don't recognize, so maybe we're missing out.  We also still have a landline, so maybe that's part of the profile thing that excludes us.

I'll accept the integrity of what a profession 'opinion' company does, but recognize that question structure and the flow of questions can lead responses.  I would guess that most Canadians don't get the interplay of the protests (Ottawa, Windsor, etc.) and the timing of the EA.  The EA and the two major protests all happened within days of each other, and I suspect many recall that 'EA came in, protests went away, must have worked'.  With only a reported 16% of respondents following the hearings, I don't expect it is moving too many needles.

Whether the protests were righteous but just afflicted with some misguided scamps has been hashed to death, here and elsewhere.


----------



## brihard (8 Nov 2022)

I’ve received a number of polling calls, don’t sure I’ve ever actually sat through a set of questions.


----------



## childs56 (8 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> This is an old story but I just read about it and it's got me fired up. This is for any f**head who has ever uttered the words "Trudeau is a tyrant" or that "we live in a dictatorship" in Canada. Kindly go f** you hat. We have it so well here:
> 
> I Australian women to sue Qatar over forced invasive examinations at Doha airport


Different countries and different levels of expectations regarding laws, cultural aspects and stupidity. We need to bring these countries to our level, not go down to theirs.  We are not perfect, but we are the best in the world we live in. We need to strive to maintain that, not loose ground to governments who envy communist rule and heavy handedness who hide in bunkers and retreats when the going get tough. AKA protest group they label as racists, bigots, fringe minority because they do not agree with what they are saying.


----------



## mariomike (8 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> In all of my (71) years, I've been contacted by a survey or polling firm, or been tagged for an online survey outside of consumer topics a grand total of once.


Even consumer testing.

As far as they are concerned, anyone over 65 can shove off on an ice flow.

*You can sign up to become a tester if:*







 You are between the ages of 18-65









						Product Testing | Become A Product Tester | ACCE International
					

Do you want to become a product tester for cash? You can sign up at a central location test near you to join our consumer testing team. If you are between the ages 18-65 sign up! Taste testing food products, give us your opinion, earn cash! Sign up today to learn more.




					acceintl.com


----------



## childs56 (8 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ve received a number of polling calls, don’t sure I’ve ever actually sat through a set of questions.


Where do you live? curious as to if the polling is done across the board or specific demographics.  Angus Reid was found to be leading questions and providing false information in more then a few of their polls supporting the liberal governments agendas.


----------



## childs56 (8 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> An interesting take from a guy about do invoke the EA...
> 
> 'You shouldn't need more tools' to clear bridge protest in Windsor: Trudeau to Ford


jt is a tyrant who medals in things he should not and orders people to do things they should not. When he does not get his way he stomps his feet and tries to fire them or actually does.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Even consumer testing.
> 
> As far as they are concerned, anyone over 65 can shove off on an ice flow.
> 
> ...


I get surveys through a set-up that awards me Petro Point (PetroCanada). You get a small number of points if you respond but don't match the profile they are looking for.  Usually, a couple of questions in about about age, gender, etc. and I'm rejected.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Nov 2022)

childs56 said:


> jt is a tyrant who medals in things he should not and orders people to do things they should not. When he does not get his way he stomps his feet and tries to fire them or actually does.


"Medals", as in comes in the top three in the discipline?


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> "Medals", as in comes in the top three in the discipline?


Well he is  top three in something but this being a G rated site....


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Nov 2022)

childs56 said:


> jt is a tyrant who medals in things he should not and orders people to do things they should not. When he does not get his way he stomps his feet and tries to fire them or actually does.



MOD POST

Easy with the "tyrant" calling.   Fairly elected in a democratic country does not make one a "tyrant".

Consider this a wrist slap and an invitation to stay in the adult conversation here.

Thank you,
Bruce


----------



## childs56 (11 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> MOD POST
> 
> Easy with the "tyrant" calling.   Fairly elected in a democratic country does not make one a "tyrant".
> 
> ...


 I guess "tyrant" was offensive and was the wrong word to use.  "controlling, manipulative, condescending_, misleading" are better descriptors of his person like descriptors _


----------



## ArmyRick (11 Nov 2022)

childs56 said:


> jt is a tyrant who medals in things he should not and orders people to do things they should not. When he does not get his way he stomps his feet and tries to fire them or actually does.


PM JT is a lying (he has been caught doing it) and incompetent (not knowing his boundaries or the extent of his power) fool. Yes fairly elected in a MINORITY government.


----------



## Lumber (11 Nov 2022)

As I reflect on this sacred day, I think that @childs56 should be allowed to call JT tyrant. The word tyrant isn't in itself a derogatory term, and I'm sure there have been plenty of actual tyrants who were democratically elected. So, we shouldn't take away his right to call JT a tyrant... Just know I still think anyone who legitimately believes JT fits the definition of Tyrany is either a complete idiot or extemely blinded by privilege.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> As I reflect on this sacred day, I think that @childs56 should be allowed to call JT tyrant. The word tyrant isn't in itself a derogatory term, and I'm sure there have been plenty of actual tyrants who were democratically elected. So, we shouldn't take away his right to call JT a tyrant... Just know I still think anyone who legitimately believes JT fits the definition of Tyrany is either a complete idiot or extemely blinded by privilege.


He can say it all he wants, no one will stop him.........but just not on this private platform where we try our best to enforce rules of decorum.


----------



## Navy_Pete (11 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> As I reflect on this sacred day, I think that @childs56 should be allowed to call JT tyrant. The word tyrant isn't in itself a derogatory term, and I'm sure there have been plenty of actual tyrants who were democratically elected. So, we shouldn't take away his right to call JT a tyrant... Just know I still think anyone who legitimately believes JT fits the definition of Tyrany is either a complete idiot or extemely blinded by privilege.


It's a description for a ruler that is unfettered by law with absolute power. It's a very derogatory term for an elected ruler in a democratic society (and incredibly inaccurate).

People that think any of our PMs are tyrants need a reality check on what living under an autocracy is like and may want to move to Russia or China.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Nov 2022)

Decorum?  What are you, establishment Republicans?


----------



## brihard (11 Nov 2022)

More to the point, the politics sub forums here have occasionally turned into cesspools when the name calling and rancor went unconstrained. Hence the admin team putting in tighter constraints on what’s permitted in terms of mud slinging and name calling.


----------



## childs56 (11 Nov 2022)

The beginnings of failure are often supported by those who chose to look the other way. 
JT has been caught lying, misleading, covering up, passing responsibility for his actions, praising the Chinese dictatorship, using the most extreme measure to quell protesters he did not like, taking a knee with one protest group while trying to call the army in on another is something else.  His apologies are so sincere I am moved. 
His inability to take responsibility for his actions and words is astounding. Those who blindly support him are amazing, he has bankrupted Canada people support him, he lies people support him. He tells us "people experience things differently" people support him.  
A leader of Canada who praises the Chinese dictatorship and they way they can get things done should be very worrying. But to his supporters it is not. 

The man ran and hid when the fringe minority that he said was nothing went to Ottawa. Other Politicians walked among the protesters.  He ignored the terrorist attacks on the Coastal Gas Link project in BC while having the Emergency Act in place and enacted. RCMP Officers had to make their way through a booby trapped road to reach the site. Yet he was silent and did not protect Canadian Critical Infrastructure as he swore was the reason for enacting the EMA. Silence from him and his party. 

Blindly looking the other way does no one any good.  
​


----------



## lenaitch (11 Nov 2022)

While we're on the topic of decorum, how about we, as adults, attempting to have an adult discussion, refrain from calling out the appearance, speaking voice, etc. of public officials, or anyone for that matter.  Dislike their politics or what they say all day long, but denigrating things someone has virtually no control over belongs in the school yard.  People were rightly called out for commenting on Chretien's palsy, and called out Trump for mocking somebody who had a neuromuscular disorder.


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> As I reflect on this sacred day, I think that @childs56 should be allowed to call JT tyrant. The word tyrant isn't in itself a derogatory term, and I'm sure there have been plenty of actual tyrants who were democratically elected. So, we shouldn't take away his right to call JT a tyrant... Just know I still think anyone who legitimately believes JT fits the definition of Tyrany is either a complete idiot or extemely blinded by privilege.



I see what you did there.  

I had a MCpl do something similar to a BSupO once.


----------



## Lumber (12 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> I had a MCpl do something similar to a BSupO once.


What did I do? 

I think anyone who legitimately thinks trudeau is a tyrant is an idiot, but I think even idiots deserve to be heated, and I do not think that child56's point of view is worth of for la censure, so I spoke up that he should be allowed to sya JT is a tyrant. 

I wasn't trying to be coy....


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Nov 2022)

Apparently it didn’t dawn on RCMP Commissioner Lucki at the time immediately prior to the PM and senior Cabinet’s Incident Response Group (IRG) assessing final decision to enact or not the Emergencies Act, that they (PM’s IRG) might wish to be informed that Ottawa Police leadership told her that they had a plan to resolve the situation that did not require the EA…

“[Lucki] I suppose in hindsight…” 









						LILLEY: Lucki didn't think to tell cabinet new information before Emergencies Act invoked
					

As the cabinet was debating invoking the Emergencies Act, Lucki didn't think to tell cabinet that there was a plan and the act wasn't needed




					torontosun.com


----------



## QV (16 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Apparently it didn’t dawn on RCMP Commissioner Lucki at the time immediately prior to the PM and senior Cabinet’s Incident Response Group (IRG) assessing final decision to enact or not the Emergencies Act, that they (PM’s IRG) might wish to be informed that Ottawa Police leadership told her that they had a plan to resolve the situation that did not require the EA…
> 
> “[Lucki] I suppose in hindsight…”
> 
> ...



And this… no big deal I guess. 









						'Freedom Convoy' did not pose threat to the security of Canada: CSIS director
					

Liberal cabinet ministers deemed last winter's "Freedom Convoy" protests a threat to the security of Canada, despite warnings from the federal intelligence agency that threshold was not met, an inquiry into the Emergencies Act learned Monday.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Apparently it didn’t dawn on RCMP Commissioner Lucki at the time immediately prior to the PM and senior Cabinet’s Incident Response Group (IRG) assessing final decision to enact or not the Emergencies Act, that they (PM’s IRG) might wish to be informed that Ottawa Police leadership told her that they had a plan to resolve the situation that did not require the EA…
> 
> “[Lucki] I suppose in hindsight…”
> 
> ...


"Look! Look over there! All those white nationalists in the CAF! There's the thing to be worried about, not us."


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (16 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> "Look! Look over there! All those white nationalists in the CAF! There's the thing to be worried about, not us."


Dude, I can't even, you're making my ribs hurt from the LOLz.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> "Look! Look over there! All those white nationalists in the CAF! There's the thing to be worried about, not us."


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (16 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> View attachment 74917


All 10 of them!  Half of which were Reservists that went NES after showing up for one night of BMQ 🤣


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Nov 2022)

Only because I couldn’t find a pic of a carbon-hating cat riding on a unicorn pointing elsewhere to distract us…


----------



## FSTO (16 Nov 2022)

Paul Wells latest on the role of the Feds. Hopefully you can read it all (paywall)









						Strong desire to not engage
					

If you don't listen, you won't hear anyone disagreeing




					paulwells.substack.com
				




Some of the highlights:

The AG is a little excitable (my comments)

“I need to calm him done,” she wrote to colleagues during one supper-hour cabinet committee meeting on Feb. 5. She meant “calm him down.” Lucki could be an approximate typist.

This does not appear to have gone well. “ok so calm is not in the cards” she wrote 14 minutes later.

Who was refusing to calm down? Mark Flynn, the RCMP’s assistant commissioner for national security and protective policing, typed a strong hint a minute later: “When the AG talks like this, we better get our own plan going…”

Taken together, the two senior police officers’ notes suggest the attorney general, David Lametti, was flashing a level of mood most of us never see as the convoy entered its second weekend.

Cabinet doesn't want to listen to LE (My comments)

By Feb. 13, calm was no closer to being in the cards. The Zoom chat that accompanied an important cabinet committee meeting began in mid-afternoon, long before the committee meeting began if I’m not mistaken, and ended well past 10 p.m. The cabinet was debating whether to invoke the Emergencies Act. Lucki was on deck to give her assessment. While she waited, Lucki kibitzed with Flynn about the effect such a call might have.



> Flynn: “I would be curious what our psychologist, that informed our plan, thinks about the reaction…”
> Lucki: “reaction by who”
> Flynn: “reaction of the protesters. Government giving themselves more power… The protest started due to government exerting power.”
> Lucki: “great observation” — and then, less than a minute later — “it could deepen division”


An hour later, Lucki had given up hope of making her report. “so doesn’t look like I will be reporting on anything”

The meeting ended 10 minutes after that.

Then there is the DM to the Public Safety Minister trying to on one hand learn his job and on the other find a way out for everyone (my notes)

As a public servant, Rob Stewart was not supposed to have strong opinions about the government. But he kept thinking for himself. And learning in his new role. So on Feb. 10, he briefed an ad-hoc group of federal ministers, a so-called Incident Response Group (IRG), about a chat he’d had that very morning with the lead OPP negotiator. About 80% of the protesters had a “weak connection to the cause,” the OPP guy had guessed. Maybe only 5% were die-hards. “The negotiator suggested that the leaders of the protest could potentially be encouraged to leave and denounce the blockade in exchange for a commitment to register their message with the government.”

Given the government’s “strong desire to not engage,” these were cheeky thoughts to entertain. But smart people, including Brenda Lucki, had told Stewart to talk to the OPP guy, Marcel Beaudin. So Stewart heard him out. De-escalation was a key part of doctrine, Stewart learned. “It was very educational for me.” Beaudin said if some of the convoy leaders — well, leaders “of a sort” — could find someone important to talk to, “this would have the effect of allowing people to achieve something,” Stewart said. And they might go home. Not all of them, of course. But the intensive police action that would follow would at least face a smaller crowd of holdouts.

“So the intention would have been —” Chaudhury began.

Stewart finished her thought. “— Shrink it.”

Thank you for reading Paul Wells. This post is public so feel free to share it.
Share
So now here was Stewart, caught between what his government sure didn’t want and what his police contacts said might work. Inevitably, he got squeezed. It didn’t take long. On Feb. 11, a day after Stewart briefed the IRG, Mendicino learned that his industrious deputy minister had drafted a plan to have Ontario _and federal_ officials talk to the protesters, as Ottawa officials and any number of cops had already been doing.

*Mendicino hit the roof. Or more precisely, he hit his phone to text Katie Telford,* the prime minister’s chief of staff, and let her know he had brought his DM back into line.





“Inconsistent with good info flow.” Chef’s kiss. In English, this translates as “Too much info was flowing.” The strong desire to not engage won, as it often does in Trudeau’s Ottawa.

It appears that this government (maybe all governments) like to keep their heads down and wish it all to go away. Handing out cheques and making feel good announcements are easy. Doing the bloody job of leading the country is hard and thankless and if you are not up to it then GTFO.


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## Good2Golf (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> “Inconsistent with good info flow.” Chef’s kiss. In English, this translates as “Too much info was flowing.” The strong desire to not engage won, as it often does in Trudeau’s Ottawa.



^ This, for sure.




FSTO said:


> It appears that this government (maybe all governments) like to keep their heads down and wish it all to go away.



Not passively head down, but actively shaping an escalation framework that would suit the agenda to (in their own minds) enact the EA.


_Edit to add_: 


> FSTO said:
> 
> 
> > So on Feb. 10, he briefed an ad-hoc group of federal ministers, a so-called Incident Response Group (IRG), about a chat he’d had that very morning with the lead OPP negotiator.


The IRG isn’t _ad hoc,_ it’s a extant sub-group of senior cabinet ministers (led by the PM) to address critical issues related to national security. The IRG has existed over many standing governments, not just something pulled up on a whim as the term _ad hoc_ would imply.


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## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> "Look! Look over there! All those white nationalists in the CAF! There's the thing to be worried about, not us."


Both of us.


----------



## Remius (17 Nov 2022)

Some interesting testimony from Jody Thomas.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593352246166753282


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Nov 2022)

Well, the authorities may have lost the old automatic allegiances of some people on the right, but they've picked up a bunch on the left.


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## FSTO (18 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The IRG isn’t _ad hoc,_ it’s a extant sub-group of senior cabinet ministers (led by the PM) to address critical issues related to national security. The IRG has existed over many standing governments, not just something pulled up on a whim as the term _ad hoc_ would imply.


Paul Wells comments not mine.


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## FSTO (18 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, the authorities may have lost the old automatic allegiances of some people on the right, but they've picked up a bunch on the left.


It's actually kinda funny how all those protestors of "the Man" back in the 80' and 90's are now advocating for more control of their (and others) lives by "the Man" and the complete reverse of that attitude by the 80's/90's advocates of "Peace, Order, and Good Government".


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## Brad Sallows (18 Nov 2022)

It's disturbing.  My oversimplification of police agencies is that "the right" likes them to preserve public order by limiting crime and criminals, and the "the left" likes them to preserve public order by muting dissent and dissenters.


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## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> It's actually kinda funny how all those protestors of "the Man" back in the 80' and 90's are now advocating for more control of their (and others) lives by "the Man" and the complete reverse of that attitude by the 80's/90's advocates of "Peace, Order, and Good Government".



Its the eventual evolution of it all.


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## QV (20 Nov 2022)

Anyone else noticing the ugly display of contempt and arrogance by senior public officials during their testimony at the EA hearing?


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## lenaitch (20 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Anyone else noticing the ugly display of contempt and arrogance by senior public officials during their testimony at the EA hearing?


I noticed that as well.  The PMO's National Security Advisor seems to have a high view of her place in life.  Then again, it's not unknown that senior leadership pushes down actual decision making authority.  I even noticed that earlier with the police liaison personnel and have experienced that personally.  You are a conduit between the parties.  You need to build trust and all that good stuff, but you are not the incident commander.  And don't forget which side you are on.


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## childs56 (20 Nov 2022)

I like how all this has been unfolding. Kinda interesting to say the least. 
Now if Western Canada actually shut down the money flowing east along with products in a form of protest.  

again we had a actual attack against critical infrastructure out west, RCMP had to remove Improvised roadblocks, booby traps to get into the site attacked. All this during the EA, yet the Federal Gov did not respond as such. This EA was only to quash the protest against the PM and his values.  He has been called out around the world for doing do so. Even laughed at for doing so, he was afraid because he is ignorant and selfish not educated.


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## Brad Sallows (20 Nov 2022)

Somewhere between their war against critical industrial/economic capabilities and their occasional antagonizing provocations towards people they don't like, the federal government is going get us all pinched.


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## SeaKingTacco (20 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I noticed that as well.  The PMO's National Security Advisor seems to have a high view of her place in life.  Then again, it's not unknown that senior leadership pushes down actual decision making authority.  I even noticed that earlier with the police liaison personnel and have experienced that personally.  You are a conduit between the parties.  You need to build trust and all that good stuff, but you are not the incident commander.  And don't forget which side you are on.


Well, Jody Thomas was the Deputy Minister of National Defence until Minister Anand was appointed.

Make of that, what you will.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Well, Jody Thomas was the Deputy Minister of National Defence until Minister Anand was appointed.
> 
> Make of that, what you will.


I’d be interested to see if her involvement trying to communicate with VAdm Edmundson’s alleged rape victim (MS(Ret’d) Stephanie Viau) will be part of VAdm Edminson’s court proceedings next August? 🤔 



			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6465182
		


…and then DM Thomas inappropriately contacting Viau noted in the article below, some questioning if it was a clumsy attempt to witness influence…



			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6135609


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I’d be interested to see if her involvement trying to communicate with VAdm Edmundson’s alleged rape victim (MS(Ret’d) Stephanie Viau) will be part of VAdm Edminson’s court proceedings next August? 🤔
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said, make of it what you will. I have no particular insight into the matter.


----------



## QV (21 Nov 2022)

Despite CSIS stating the convoy was not a CSIS Act S. 2 threat to national security, and there has been no evidence yet presented from any other security or LE agency suggesting same ... it seems a significant part of why the NSA and the Clerk recommended invoking the EA was based off of "shitposting" on social media.


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## Good2Golf (21 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Despite CSIS stating the convoy was not a CSIS Act S. 2 threat to national security, and there has been no evidence yet presented from any other security or LE agency suggesting same ... it seems a significant part of why the NSA and the Clerk recommended invoking the EA was based off of "shitposting" on social media.


…and don’t forget CBC’s ‘assessment’ that apparently figured into the Gov’t consideration.


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## QV (21 Nov 2022)

Freedom Convoy rose to national emergency when 'critical' border crossings were closed, Bill Blair testifies
					

CSIS' recommendation to invoke the Emergencies Act is a significant boost to the federal government’s case.




					nationalpost.com
				




And hot off the presses, CSIS director to the rescue of the PM. 

_"But Vigneault also told the inquiry that at no point did the Freedom Convoy ever “constitute a threat to the security of Canada,” but that assessment does not include other factors “such as economic harm or environmental harm, even public health harm, and the pandemic,” because they are not included within the confines of the CSIS Act."_


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## brihard (21 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Freedom Convoy rose to national emergency when 'critical' border crossings were closed, Bill Blair testifies
> 
> 
> CSIS' recommendation to invoke the Emergencies Act is a significant boost to the federal government’s case.
> ...


I found this part very interesting as a ‘peak behind the curtain’:



> CSIS confirmed that it now dedicates at least half of its counter-terrorism resources to monitoring the threat of Ideologically motivated violent extremism (IMVE), a stark shift from the decade after 9/11 when Islamic radicalism was identified as the biggest threat to Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Freedom Convoy rose to national emergency when 'critical' border crossings were closed, Bill Blair testifies
> 
> 
> CSIS' recommendation to invoke the Emergencies Act is a significant boost to the federal government’s case.
> ...






> CSIS breaks down IMVE into four categories of violence: xenophobic (white supremacy, neo-Nazis); anti-authority (anti-government, such as the Jan. 6, 2021 storming of the U.S. Capitol); gender-driven (Incels or violent misogyny); and “other grieveance-driven” threats (such as violent enviromental or anti-abortion groups).



That's an interesting definition of xenophobic that CSIS uses.


----------



## Remius (21 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's an interesting definition of xenophobic that CSIS uses.


Click on the Merriam-Webster synonym link and you will see what they equate it to there as well.









						Thesaurus results for XENOPHOBIA
					

Xenophobia: fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners. Synonyms: nativism, chauvinism, jingoism… Find the right word.




					www.merriam-webster.com


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## daftandbarmy (21 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …and don’t forget CBC’s ‘assessment’ that apparently figured into the Gov’t consideration.



Reading the CBC's 'assessment' be like....


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Nov 2022)

Not sure what is wrong with the definition.  White supremacists and neo-nazis are definitely xenophobic (assuming the changed definition of phobia from "fear" to "dislike/hate").  Those two are examples, not an exhaustive list.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Not sure what is wrong with the definition.  White supremacists and neo-nazis are definitely xenophobic (assuming the changed definition of phobia from "fear" to "dislike/hate").  Those two are examples, not an exhaustive list.



Yea maybe it's just my reading.


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## Kat Stevens (21 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea maybe it's just my reading.


Or, and here's a kooky thought, while all white (black, brown, red, blue,) supremacists and/or neo-Nazis may be xenophobes, not all xenophobes are either one of those things? You can apply xenophobia against Danes or Swedes, or even, god help me, the Dutch, just as well as you can against anyone else. Just sayin 🥣


----------



## Furniture (21 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Or, and here's a kooky thought, while all white (black, brown, red, blue,) supremacists and/or neo-Nazis may be xenophobes, not all xenophobes are either one of those things? You can apply xenophobia against Danes or Swedes, or even, god help me, the Dutch, just as well as you can against anyone else. Just sayin 🥣


There are two things I can't stand in this world; people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.


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## OldSolduer (21 Nov 2022)

CSIS recommended invoking the EA


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> CSIS recommended invoking the EA



Maybe they intended to use the EA to deal with foreign police stations popping up in Canada.


----------



## dapaterson (21 Nov 2022)

Some choice quotes from Bill Blair.

"I can't believe that I am hoping that Doug Ford will save us."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594846046852886529


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Nov 2022)

Texts are a hell of a drug….


----------



## brihard (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Some choice quotes from Bill Blair.
> 
> "I can't believe that I am hoping that Doug Ford will save us."
> 
> ...


Oof


----------



## mariomike (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Some choice quotes from Bill Blair.



And some from Doug.


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-chief-bill-blair-accepts-apology-from-doug-ford-for-tirade-1.2736448#Apology%20letter


----------



## FSTO (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Some choice quotes from Bill Blair.
> 
> "I can't believe that I am hoping that Doug Ford will save us."
> 
> ...


Bill Blair should have been put out to pasture years ago.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> Bill Blair should have been put out to pasture years ago.


Not the first time that "former cop in Cabinet" thing hasn't worked according to plan, for sure.


----------



## dapaterson (22 Nov 2022)

Counsel for convoy has been ordered removed from the proceedings by the presiding judge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595095823783952385


----------



## Remius (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Counsel for convoy has been ordered removed from the proceedings by the presiding judge.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595095823783952385


Saw that on tv.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> Bill Blair should have been put out to pasture years ago.


He’s a boot licking toadie and will be under bussed when JT needs a scapegoat


----------



## QV (22 Nov 2022)

With very senior government bureaucrats flirting with the reasons for invoking the EA, here's a reminder of a few important legal definitions:


*Emergencies Act* Emergencies Act

Declaration of a public order emergency 
17(1) When the Governor in Council believes, on reasonable grounds, that a public order emergency exists and necessitates the taking of special temporary measures for dealing with the emergency, the Governor in Council, after such consultation as is required by section 25, may, by proclamation, so declare.

a public order emergency means an emergency that arises from threats to the security of Canada and that is so serious as to be a national emergency;

threats to the security of Canada has the meaning assigned by section 2 of the CSIS Act. 

a national emergency is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that

(a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or
(b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada
and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.


*CSIS Act Section 2* Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act

threats to the security of Canada means

(a) espionage or sabotage that is against Canada or is detrimental to the interests of Canada or activities directed toward or in support of such espionage or sabotage,
(b) foreign influenced activities within or relating to Canada that are detrimental to the interests of Canada and are clandestine or deceptive or involve a threat to any person,
(c) activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state, and
(d) activities directed toward undermining by covert unlawful acts, or directed toward or intended ultimately to lead to the destruction or overthrow by violence of, the constitutionally established system of government in Canada,
but does not include lawful advocacy, protest or dissent, unless carried on in conjunction with any of the activities referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d).


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Nov 2022)

Interesting that we don’t have a paper/electronic trail of CSIS Director’s advice to government, just his verbal testimony. 🤔


----------



## dapaterson (22 Nov 2022)

Paper was apparent disclosed in camera.


----------



## QV (22 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Interesting that we don’t have a paper/electronic trail of CSIS Director’s advice to government, just his verbal testimony. 🤔


There was some language about what the government can interpret as a threat to the security of Canada beyond the CSIS section 2 definition. 

The potential problem arising from these lines of testimony (also came up with the NSA) suggests the government believes it can broadly interpret legal definitions beyond what the specific definitions in law are... in this case; what constituted a threat to the security of Canada, which wasn't made out in CSIS Act S. 2, as CSIS stated. This floating interpretation is troublesome.

But considering all other things that so vexed the government of the day (things such as "shitposting" and international embarrassment), the government felt the security of Canada as a sovereign nation was totally at risk... (and if they say it enough, we'll all surely believe it).


----------



## TacticalTea (22 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> There was some language about what the government can interpret as a threat to the security of Canada beyond the CSIS section 2 definition.
> 
> The potential problem arising from these lines of testimony (also came up with the NSA) suggests the government believes it can broadly interpret legal definitions beyond what the specific definitions in law are... in this case; what constituted a threat to the security of Canada, which wasn't made out in CSIS Act S. 2, as CSIS stated. This floating interpretation is troublesome.
> 
> But considering all other things that so vexed the government of the day (things such as "shitposting" and international embarrassment), the government felt the security of Canada as a sovereign nation was totally at risk... (and if they say it enough, we'll all surely believe it).


As far as I know, that interpretation makes no sense; laws that grant powers to the government are supposed to be interpreted in a restrictive manner.

#NotALawyer, though, so take that with a grain of salt.

What I do find funny is this coming out right after the Director's comments:


			'Weak link' Canada urgently needs new law to face modern security threats: spy agency
		


Bit of give and take, ya?


----------



## mariomike (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1594846046852886529





> I am embarrassed for my former profession.


He must have been.

Seeing Ottawa police lose control of their streets, he likely remembered his days on the old Metro force.

Control the streets at all times. Give no slack and take no sh%t from anyone.

Running people out of Yorkville, off the Yonge Street strip and Rochdale College. Sometimes on horse back.



> I believe that Chief Bill Blair is an honourable public servant and a person of high integrity.


Doug Ford


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Paper was apparent disclosed in camera.


I read that Vigneault mentioned the details of briefing the PM in camera, but not that there was an actual product presented.  

Given the PM’s floppy-floppy position on other things CSIS has, or hasn’t, or has again, or still hasn’t briefed the PM (and/or cabinet…which the PM may have forgotten he is a part of), I seriously question the voracity of anything that any of our public servants are alleged to have said, but for which there is no physical proof of having taken place…


----------



## lenaitch (22 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> He must have been.
> 
> Seeing Ottawa police lose control of their streets, he likely remembered his days on the old Metro force.
> 
> ...


I wonder if felt a little twinge during the G7/G20 events in Toronto.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Some choice quotes from Bill Blair.
> 
> "I can't believe that I am hoping that Doug Ford will save us."
> 
> ...


----------



## brihard (22 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> With very senior government bureaucrats flirting with the reasons for invoking the EA, here's a reminder of a few important legal definitions:
> 
> 
> *Emergencies Act* Emergencies Act
> ...


Pretty good rundown, and tracking of the statutory requirements and legal criteria discussed farther upthread.

Just to offer one point of clarification - and this isn’t coming from you saying anything incorrect, but just to expound on one point - the importation of the term “threat to the security of Canada” from the CSIS act does not mean that, for the purpose of invoking the EA, that determination has to be made by CSIS. It simply means that the criteria to be met include that definition.

The Governor General must believe that such a threat exists to proclaim the emergency regulations. Or, in practice, under our constitutional principle of Responsible Government, the GG is responsive to such a belief being held by Cabinet and, in particular, the PM.

Ultimately the buck stops with Trudeau on this, and all testimony prior to his will simply be building towards him having to articulate why _he_ formed the opinion that a ‘threat to the security of Canada’ was present, as well as the other requisite criteria of the EA.


----------



## Furniture (22 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Pretty good rundown, and tracking of the statutory requirements and legal criteria discussed farther upthread.
> 
> Just to offer one point of clarification - and this isn’t coming from you saying anything incorrect, but just to expound on one point - the importation of the term “threat to the security of Canada” from the CSIS act does not mean that, for the purpose of invoking the EA, that determination has to be made by CSIS. It simply means that the criteria to be met include that definition.
> 
> ...


I expect that articulation will include a few ummms, ahhhhs, and maybe a drinking box water thing.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I expect that articulation will include a few ummms, ahhhhs, and maybe a drinking box water thing.



You might be expecting more than he can give....


----------



## QV (23 Nov 2022)

Unless I've missed it, I have not yet heard evidence presented that there existed:

1. threats to the security of Canada (as defined in CSIS Act S. 2); *and*
2. a national emergency (as defined in the EA).

To invoke the EA, both of these should be easily and clearly articulable by the various senior bureaucrats.


----------



## brihard (23 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Unless I've missed it, I have not yet heard evidence presented that there existed:
> 
> 1. threats to the security of Canada (as defined in CSIS Act S. 2); *and*
> 2. a national emergency (as defined in the EA).
> ...



I agree that those are the boxes to tick. I’m not necessarily convinced that the whole range of senior bureaucrats would each have had a sufficiently fulsome picture. It sounds like there were a few info silos, and some varied cross-talk between departments and across levels of government. It also sounds like the perception at the very top continued to evolve right up until invocation, and that even being a half day behind the loop at the time the decision was made could mean an individual bureaucrat could be missing an important part of the picture. For the purpose of the commission, what matters is what people can articulate about what they knew, perceived, and believed _at the time._

The decision was made at the very top, and info flowed up to the PM who made his call based on the totality. I want to know what he has to say.

I am not yet convinced one way or another, but I consider the onus to be on the PM to explain why he believed it necessary under the criteria you identified.


----------



## QV (23 Nov 2022)

One would think the NSA would be key in bottlenecking those silos for the PM. Her testimony was lacking.


----------



## brihard (23 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> One would think the NSA would be key in bottlenecking those silos for the PM. Her testimony was lacking.



I’ve not been in a position to compare her testimony to the statement she gave or to the documents she submitted. While the public testimony has mostly been the more sensational and noticeable part of this, the commission has also received and published thousands of documents, some in camera, which will form part of the body of evidence they consider. I actually doubt that the oral testimony will add much that wasn’t previously obtained by the commission through statements and documentary evidence. The testimonial portion mostly seems like a means by which the various parties who were granted standing can test the veracity and interpretation of the submitted evidence. And, of course the oral testimony is how we in the public become aware of much of this unless we’re actively digging through documents, or reading the work of others who have… I just don’t have the time to do much of that.


----------



## Rifleman62 (23 Nov 2022)

> The decision was made at the very top, and info flowed up to the PM who made his call based on the totality. I want to know what he has to say.
> 
> I am not yet convinced one way or another, but I consider the onus to be on the PM to explain why he believed it necessary .........


You expect Trudeau to tell the truth? Ever? The master of obfuscation.


----------



## brihard (23 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> You expect Trudeau to tell the truth? Ever? The master of obfuscation.


I have no particular expectations for this commission- but I do know that a ton of written correspondence and briefings were generated during the convoys and have been submitted to the commission. Anything the Prime Minister states or claims will be tested against those receipts.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> One would think the NSA would be key in bottlenecking those silos for the PM. Her testimony was lacking.


NSIA. 😉 

I thought for a second that you had info the Fort Mead was passing on some comms/cyber intercepts of the politicians PINs…sadly not.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Nov 2022)

Canada's Solicitor General expresses his opinion of the then chief of police in Ottawa.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595450491110137856


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Nov 2022)

I honestly think that the cabinet ministers thought their PINs would never see the light of day. 

Now they know they thought wrong.

Their texts are clear examples of the cavalier disregard they have for anyone other than themselves and their privileged cabal…


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Nov 2022)

A


brihard said:


> I have no particular expectations for this commission- but I do know that a ton of written correspondence and briefings were generated during the convoys and have been submitted to the commission. Anything the Prime Minister states or claims will be tested against those receipts.


... and be allowed to slide, just like every other time he's slammed his Kokanee can in the door. Nothing to umm, errr, see uhhhh, here (insert smug little smirk when appropriate) everyone, errr,  just  uhhh experienced it, ummm, differently.


----------



## brihard (23 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> A
> 
> ... and be allowed to slide, just like every other time he's slammed his Kokanee can in the door. Nothing to umm, errr, see uhhhh, here (insert smug little smirk when appropriate) everyone, errr,  just  uhhh experienced it, ummm, differently.


Ultimately, I suppose that’s a matter for voters to decide on next time an election comes around. That’s how this part of the system corrects.


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Ultimately, I suppose that’s a matter for voters to decide on next time an election comes around. That’s how this part of the system corrects.


I see you are new to Canada, welcome!


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Nov 2022)

Canadian intelligence warned PM Trudeau that China covertly funded 2019 election candidates: Sources​On Chinese election interference, the Trudeau government is talking loudly and doing nothing​
Perhaps a little telling that the LPC spoke in depth about foreign interference and funding about the convoy which didn't pan out, but we're just hearing about this election interference now.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Canadian intelligence warned PM Trudeau that China covertly funded 2019 election candidates: Sources​On Chinese election interference, the Trudeau government is talking loudly and doing nothing​
> Perhaps a little telling that the LPC spoke in depth about foreign interference and funding about the convoy which didn't pan out, but we're just hearing about this election interference now.


So…

CSIS didn’t did tell the PM about the Freedom Convoy threat worthy of enacting the EA…

CSIS did didn’t tell the PM about PRC’s interference in Canadian elections…

Got it…everyone has an issue with how they experience things…except the PM of course….solid like a rock.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Nov 2022)

So the big question is is Trudeau banning more guns to distract people from the EA fuckery or his Chinese friends fuckery.

*Trudeau says opposition creating 'false concern' as he ducks Chinese election interference questions*


> OTTAWA — The prime minister spent question period ducking direct questions from the opposition over what he did and didn’t know about allegations of Chinese interference in Canadian elections, accusing opposition parties of fomenting “false concern” among Canadians.







__





						Trudeau says opposition creating 'false concern' as he ducks Chinese election interference questions
					





					www.msn.com
				





I'd love to see the mental gymnastics  behind how questioning foreign interference in our election is a false concern.


----------



## McG (23 Nov 2022)

If you didn’t know China was aggressively working to influence Canadian democracy, then you have not been paying attention:








						Former CSIS honcho says Canadian politicians are on foreign agents' payroll
					

A former espionage officer claims that some Canadian politicians are on the payroll of foreign agents.




					torontosun.com
				





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csis-trudeau-china-media-1.6270750
		



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csis-foreign-interference-1.6112986
		









						How China uses shadowy United Front as 'magic weapon' to try to extend its influence in Canada
					

Its activities include influencing the Chinese diaspora to back China, co-opting foreign political and economic elites and promoting Beijing’s agenda worldwide




					nationalpost.com
				



… not been paying attention for a long time:


			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.909345


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Nov 2022)

McG said:


> If you didn’t know China was aggressively working to influence Canadian democracy, then you have not been paying attention:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Members of Parliament have been known to conduct “foreign affairs” with Chinese nationals


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Nov 2022)

Trying to figure out the criteria for when foreign interference is a false concern, and when it is the end of democracy...


----------



## TacticalTea (24 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> So the big question is is Trudeau banning more guns to distract people from the EA fuckery or his Chinese friends fuckery.
> 
> *Trudeau says opposition creating 'false concern' as he ducks Chinese election interference questions*
> 
> ...


For sure. That headline-worthy comment by Trudeau is outrageous. As if he's willing letting the enemy infiltrate us.


----------



## Weinie (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Ultimately, *I suppose that’s a matter for voters to decide on next time an election comes around. *That’s how this part of the system corrects.


And *how much* damage can they do until 2024? System corrects?


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> And *how much* damage can they do until 2024? System corrects?


Yup, that’s how it goes in our system… We vote in a government, and they govern til either a minority loses the confidence of the House, a majority reaches the end of its term, or the PM in the other case calls an election. Whether that’s a bug or a feature is in the eye of the beholder.

Hopefully team blue makes itself a more viable opponent next go around. The system works better when the opposition takes itself seriously, so that voters more easily can too.


----------



## Weinie (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup, that’s how it goes in our system… We vote in a government, and they govern til either a minority loses the confidence of the House, a majority reaches the end of its term, or the PM in the other case calls an election. Whether that’s a bug or a feature is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Hopefully team blue makes itself a more viable opponent next go around. The system works better when the opposition takes itself seriously, so that voters more easily can too.


I don't care what *colour *government reflects. I do care what responsible,elected officials undertake on behalf of 38 million Canadians


----------



## OceanBonfire (24 Nov 2022)

Rejecting unproven claims prevents 'mob' takeover of convoy inquiry: Murray Sinclair
					

The commissioner presiding over the public inquiry into the use of the Emergencies Act will not allow a lawyer for 'Freedom Convoy' organizers to explore an unsubstantiated claim that hateful imagery spotted at the Ottawa protests last winter was staged.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Rejecting unproven claims the right way for inquiry heads to proceed: Murray Sinclair
					

Justice Paul Rouleau says in his written reasons that claims by Freedom Corp. lawyer Brenda Miller are "troubling" and have "little foundation in evidence."




					ottawa.citynews.ca


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> I don't care what *colour *government reflects. I do care what responsible,elected officials undertake on behalf of 38 million Canadians


Yup, I think we all do, even if we don’t all completely agree on the details.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (24 Nov 2022)

I really wonder how stupid out government leaders really are.
I get the idea of a joke, or speaking out of turn, or speaking before you think the whole thought thru and not seeing the issues that comes with that thought. But putting the thoughts out on text, twitter, or written down on a note and passed up the chain. How stupid are they?

"
FIRST READING: Trudeau cabinet casually discussed crushing Freedom Convoy with tanks​Justice Minister David Lametti claimed it was a joke, although he may not have been joking about suggesting they call in the army"

"
“*You need to get the police to move. And the CAF if necessary. Too many people are being seriously adversely impacted by what is an occupation*,” Lametti texted to Mendicino.



“*How many tanks are you asking for. I just wanna ask (Defence Minister) Anita (Anand) how many we’ve got on hand*,” 

 "
This is the talk banana republics have in the back room, where they do not record and save the conversations electronically.

"But if the federal cabinet had decided to try and fix the problem with soldiers, it wouldn’t even have required the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Canada’s National Defence Act makes clear that the military can be called out to quell any civil unrest “beyond the powers of the civil authorities to suppress, prevent or deal with.” Most famously, this was the clause used to summon troops to stand guard during the 1990 Oka Crisis."

"
And, *unlike with invocations of the Emergencies Act, invoking the National Defence Act doesn’t trigger a mandatory public inquiry*.



However, when asked whether the military would eventually be employed to clear Freedom Convoy, the Trudeau government was pretty consistent in saying that it wasn’t on the table."

I cherry picked some of the quotes. 

nationalpost.com/news/canada/trudeau-cabinet-freedom-convoy-tanks


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (24 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I really wonder how stupid out government leaders really are.
> I get the idea of a joke, or speaking out of turn, or speaking before you think the whole thought thru and not seeing the issues that comes with that thought. But putting the thoughts out on text, twitter, or written down on a note and passed up the chain. How stupid are they?
> 
> "
> ...


Luckily for us, these idiots have screwed up the Military so badly there are no tanks to spare 🤣


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2022)

That’s some pretty dumb stuff to say by text.

In other news, James Bauder wants some sort of Convoy 2.0 in Ottawa around the weekend of Feb. 18-19 2023. That’s exactly a year from when the occupation got cleared out of downtown.

Probably safe to guess that a close eye will be kept on this.









						'Freedom Convoy 2.0' being planned for February 2023
					

An organizer of the 'Freedom Convoy' says he's planning a reunion in Ottawa in February. James Bauder, the founder of Canada Unity, a group that called for an end to all vaccine mandates, posted on Facebook calling for a 'Freedom Convoy 2.0' Feb. 17 to 21 in Ottawa.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## QV (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s some pretty dumb stuff to say by text.
> 
> In other news, James Bauder wants some sort of Convoy 2.0 in Ottawa around the weekend of Feb. 18-19 2023. That’s exactly a year from when the occupation got cleared out of downtown.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of lessons learned on both sides.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s some pretty dumb stuff to say by text.
> 
> In other news, James Bauder wants some sort of Convoy 2.0 in Ottawa around the weekend of Feb. 18-19 2023. That’s exactly a year from when the occupation got cleared out of downtown.
> 
> ...


Make a grand statement. Play like you’re organizing one.

Then don’t go.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I honestly think that the cabinet ministers thought their PINs would never see the light of day.
> 
> Now they know they thought wrong.
> 
> Their texts are clear examples of the cavalier disregard they have for anyone other than themselves and their privileged cabal…


The next thing you’ll know we’ll be told we should cancel Disney+ subscriptions…


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> There are a lot of lessons learned on both sides.



Definitely. If they want to show up and march around downtown for a while like any normal Ottawa protest, have at ‘er. If they intend anything more than they, they’ll hopefully also have noted and learned from how the subsequent ‘rolling thunder’ protest went when they tried to block off Rideau Street.

Ottawa experiences a lot of protests and is generally very tolerant of them. This crew, like any, should be allowed to toe the line so long as they’re acting lawfully, but will likely not be given any benefit of the doubt beyond that.


----------



## Weinie (24 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I honestly think that the cabinet ministers thought their PINs would never see the light of day.
> 
> Now they know they thought wrong.
> 
> Their texts are clear examples of the cavalier disregard they have for anyone other than themselves and their privileged cabal…


You should see the PIN's that went around DND/CAF amongst  seniors. It was disgusting.


----------



## Kirkhill (24 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, the authorities may have lost the old automatic allegiances of some people on the right, but they've picked up a bunch on the left.



Late to the party but immediately thought Gestapo CT Stasi.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Nov 2022)

Give the War Museum some grants to acquire and retain "runners" and you'll always have some tanks on hand in Ottawa.


----------



## mariomike (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> If they want to show up and march around downtown for a while like any normal Ottawa protest, have at ‘er.



Wrap themselves in flags and chant their a$$es off.


----------



## Navy_Pete (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Definitely. If they want to show up and march around downtown for a while like any normal Ottawa protest, have at ‘er. If they intend anything more than they, they’ll hopefully also have noted and learned from how the subsequent ‘rolling thunder’ protest went when they tried to block off Rideau Street.
> 
> Ottawa experiences a lot of protests and is generally very tolerant of them. This crew, like any, should be allowed to toe the line so long as they’re acting lawfully, but will likely not be given any benefit of the doubt beyond that.


Yeah, pretty straightforward. Don't poop on the streets, steal food from the homeless shelter and beat up security guards, harass people shopping, block roads and highways and generally be a menace and it is fine.

Not really optimisitic we won't see more of 'Stick it to the Laurentian Elites' 'Take off your mask you Sheep!' etc etc.

'Sir, this is Shoppers Drug Mart.'


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Definitely. If they want to show up and march around downtown for a while like any normal Ottawa protest, have at ‘er.



March around with long plastic rectangular cases. I like it 😉


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> You should see the PIN's that went around DND/CAF amongst  seniors. It was disgusting.


Anybody who doesn’t think that emails/PINs won’t eventually hit the public, is not very bright…or just plain arrogant.


----------



## Mills Bomb (24 Nov 2022)

*Tinfoil hat hypothetical*

So what happens if it turns out JT was one of the MP's that China covertly funded? Given stories like this one, it may not be as far-fetched as some want to believe?



			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3863266
		


"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was forced to defend his party's fundraising methods in the House of Commons Tuesday after media reports emerged revealing he attended a fundraiser with a Chinese businessman who went on to donate $200,000 to the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation"

Given how sketchy this entire situation is, it may be unresolvable since the party in power could be the one that benefitted the most from covert Chinese funding and simply decide to cover this whole mess up. I mean, what are they gonna do, be honest with us? Tell us that in fact the Chinese did help them? They don't seem interested in really coming clean and telling us anything, it seems like they are actually more focused on bringing up other controversial topics like gun laws to bring heat off of the situation and trying to move past and dismiss it.

Maybe it is just tinfoil, but you would think if it was, and maybe it is, and the LPC are truly interested in "transparent government" wouldn't we already have the answers and know exactly who was foreign funded? That's super messed up. And there's nothing everyday Canadian's can really do about it. 

What would the repercussions even be if this turned out to be the case, if anything?

How do we potentially deal with a party holding power if we know the way they came to that power was partially threw foreign funding by one of our biggest adversaries? And how will this effect our relationship with our Western allies if proven true and the party refuses to leave? 

I realize this might be pretty far-fetched but at the same time the lack of transparency on this topic is pure conspiracy fuel.


----------



## childs56 (24 Nov 2022)

The Head of CSIS contradicts what the CSIS report said. The report said no need for the EMA from what I read a few days ago. Now the head of CSIS says he recommended it to JT in a meeting.  
Again no action for those who attacked a Construction camp working on building critical infrastructure in Western Canada or the same people who laid out booby traps and road hazards that the RCMP had to get through to attend the destruction.  Funny, all we have seen is a illegal use of the EMA which should be the last resort.  I also find it funny that the Heads of all others involved said they did not require the EMA from the federal government. Yet the head of CSIS said different, I wonder how other things they get wrong from his advice.


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2022)

The CSIS report (on record) says no, but the CSIS Head says yes, thing gives citizens reasonable uncertainty as to what was going on…did the CSIS Head counter the Service’s own assessment to ‘do the PM a solid?’  One can’t help but at least ask the question…

The whole thing stinks and Canadians have a right to be concerned.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The CSIS report (on record) says no, but the CSIS Head says yes, thing gives citizens reasonable uncertainty as to what was going on…did the CSIS Head counter the Service’s own assessment to ‘do the PM a solid?’  One can’t help but at least ask the question…
> 
> The whole thing stinks and Canadians have a right to be concerned.


But you and I know most Canadians won’t be concerned.
They’ll shrug their shoulders and say “the government does what it wants”


----------



## QV (24 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The CSIS report (on record) says no, but the CSIS Head says yes, thing gives citizens reasonable uncertainty as to what was going on…did the CSIS Head counter the Service’s own assessment to ‘do the PM a solid?’  One can’t help but at least ask the question…
> 
> The whole thing stinks and Canadians have a right to be concerned.


As I mentioned in another thread, so long as this government only really offends 30% at a time and everyone else remains silent about it, they will keep getting away with more and more.


----------



## Furniture (24 Nov 2022)

I'll just drop this here...

TL/DR; Let us stop on freedoms for a bit longer so we can really show the peasants their place.

RCMP wanted to keep Emergencies Act in place for weeks to 'finish what we started,' docs show


The RCMP isn't your friend... This is the sort of garbage that undermines the credibility of police, and government.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'll just drop this here...
> 
> TL/DR; Let us stop on freedoms for a bit longer so we can really show the peasants their place.
> 
> ...


Instead I would argue that Lucki isn't the RCMP's friend....


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Instead I would argue that Lucki isn't the RCMP's friend....


Oh, it wasn’t Lucki who isn’t the RCMP’s friend…it was apparently just her notes that aren’t the RCMP’s friends.  

What a load of codswallop that article is…”in notes prepared for Cmre Lucki to present to cabinet…”  

So did she herself actually say what her notes said?  🤦🏻


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Nov 2022)

As in all things, it's the stuff said/written that they think will never come to light, that reveals their character.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (24 Nov 2022)

McG said:


> If you didn’t know China was aggressively working to influence Canadian democracy, then you have not been paying attention:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Operation Sidewinder enters the room.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Nov 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> *Tinfoil hat hypothetical*
> 
> So what happens if it turns out JT was one of the MP's that China covertly funded? Given stories like this one, it may not be as far-fetched as some want to believe?



Absolutely nothing.  Singh has all but committed to prop up this Liberal Gov at all costs.  And central Canada will again vote them into power.  

Not enough people from Riviere-Du-Loup to Kenora care, and they believe they know what's best for the country. 

I am so disgusted by the state of things.


----------



## Lumber (25 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The CSIS report (on record) says no, but the CSIS Head says yes, thing gives citizens reasonable uncertainty as to what was going on…did the CSIS Head counter the Service’s own assessment to ‘do the PM a solid?’  One can’t help but at least ask the question…
> 
> The whole thing stinks and Canadians have a right to be concerned.


Devil's advocate here: in the CAF, there have been plenty of situations where a team/organization/unit released a formal report with a well researched analysis and well structured conclusion, only to have the Commander disagree with their staff and go a different route/make a contradictory decision. So, was it "a solid" to the PM, or does the CSIS Head simply have an honest but different opinion than his staff and is flexing his authority?


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Devil's advocate here: in the CAF, there have been plenty of situations where a team/organization/unit released a formal report with a well researched analysis and well structured conclusion, only to have the Commander disagree with their staff and go a different route/make a contradictory decision. So, was it "a solid" to the PM, or does the CSIS Head simply have an honest but different opinion than his staff and is flexing his authority?


lol, dealing with that right now; love when people want an 'evidence based decision' but then ignore the evidence, or get people without the depth of knowledge to 'interpret' the evidence to get the answer they want. We are pretty good about internally shopping for the 'yes'.


----------



## QV (25 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'll just drop this here...
> 
> TL/DR; Let us stop on freedoms for a bit longer so we can really show the peasants their place.
> 
> ...


Essentially from the beginning this can be summarized as: "we didn't need it (EA), but now that we have it we don't want to lose it just yet..."


----------



## mariomike (25 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Don't poop on the streets, steal food from the homeless shelter and beat up security guards, harass people shopping, block roads and highways and generally be a menace and it is fine.
> 
> Not really optimisitic we won't see more of 'Stick it to the Laurentian Elites' 'Take off your mask you Sheep!' etc etc.



One can always hope.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> ... Not enough people from Riviere-Du-Loup to Kenora care, and they believe they know what's best for the country ...


I feel the same frustration as you re:  where the numbers are, but as someone in the same area code as Kenora, trust me, it ain't us that's swinging that big old Ontario vote machine ....


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Nov 2022)

At the back of their minds. 

He said it. He’s driving a huge wedge between the privileged - him and his supporters- and the rest of us


----------



## TacticalTea (25 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Riviere-Du-Loup to Kenora


🤔

Odd picks!

To piggyback on what Bread Guy said, here's a map of counties just West of Riviere-du-loup. 😅


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I feel the same frustration as you re:  where the numbers are, but as someone in the same area code as Kenora, trust me, it ain't us that's swinging that big old Ontario vote machine ....
> View attachment 75137


Why don’t you guys separate and join us in Mb? It’s not like Toronto cares about you.


----------



## mariomike (25 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Why don’t you guys separate and join us in Mb? It’s not like Toronto cares about you.



Interesting suggestion.

8 pages on that.









						City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver
					

Except, of course, that if you happen to believe in something akin to at least rough equality of representation then doesn't it make sense that the GTA, with a population (2011 census) of over 6 million, ought to "drive" Ontario that has a population of (same census) 12.8 million? Or is it that...




					army.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Why don’t you guys separate and join us in Mb? It’s not like Toronto cares about you.


The idea's been tossed about off and on for some time - with some in Kenora actually saying it out loud clearly - not to mention the NW becoming its own province.  There's even a political party keen on making Northern Ontario a separate province.

I'm told this kind of boundary change would need a constitutional amendment sort of thing - and we all know the odds of THAT happening soon, easily and quickly, right?

Besides, would Winnipeg enjoy taking on the searing white-hot loathing of the centre from this part of the world once we break our shackles tying us to Toronto The Good?


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> The idea's been tossed about off and on for some time - with some in Kenora actually saying it out loud clearly - not to mention the NW becoming its own province.  There's even a political party keen on making Northern Ontario a separate province.
> 
> I'm told this kind of boundary change would need a constitutional amendment sort of thing - and we all know the odds of THAT happening soon, easily and quickly, right?
> 
> Besides, would Winnipeg enjoy taking on the searing white-hot loathing of the centre from this part of the world once we break our shackles tying us to Toronto The Good?


Are you kidding? Hell yes the Toronto media calls us the Murder Capital of Canada already. Anything else is an improvement


----------



## lenaitch (26 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> The idea's been tossed about off and on for some time - with some in Kenora actually saying it out loud clearly - not to mention the NW becoming its own province.  There's even a political party keen on making Northern Ontario a separate province.
> 
> I'm told this kind of boundary change would need a constitutional amendment sort of thing - and we all know the odds of THAT happening soon, easily and quickly, right?
> 
> Besides, would Winnipeg enjoy taking on the searing white-hot loathing of the centre from this part of the world once we break our shackles tying us to Toronto The Good?


That party has been around in one form or another since the '70s.  Its platform flips between advocating for secession and just advocating for northern interests.  They get hundreds of votes.  I'm not even sure there is broad consensus one what 'northern Ontario' means.


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Hell yes the Toronto media calls us the Murder Capital of Canada already.



The stats come from Ottawa.

Homicide rates among census metropolitan areas highest in Regina, Thunder Bay and Winnipeg​


> Among census metropolitan areas (CMAs) in 2021, the highest homicide rates recorded were in Regina (5.67 homicides per 100,000 population), Thunder Bay (5.63) and Winnipeg (5.39).





> The CMAs with the largest percentage increase in homicide rate from the previous year were Windsor (+101%), St John’s (+100%) and London (+98%)









						Table 2 Homicides, by census metropolitan area, 2020 and 2021
					

Table 2 Homicides, by census metropolitan area, 2020 and 2021




					www150.statcan.gc.ca
				




Rates are per capita. The per capita homicide rates of 36 municipalities are compared. 



> Rates are calculated per 100,000 population using revised July 1st, 2021 population estimates from Statistics Canada, Centre for Demography.



*Release date:* November 21, 2022


----------



## Quirky (26 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not even sure there is broad consensus one what 'northern Ontario' means.


Draw a line just north of Barrie?


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2022)

Read this, about that back in Reply #4.987



> Northern Ontario should in all reality, be its own province.





> Thunder Bay mayor Lynn Peterson opposed Murdoch's proposal, stating that one of the perceived issues was inconsequential, specifically that policies defined in the Ontario legislature are not Toronto-centric.[28]
> Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Devlopment and Mines, said "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be".[28]



Sources are included.








						Proposal for the Province of Toronto - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Draw a line just north of Barrie?


North of Muskoka, the well-to-do wouldn’t want their ritzy cottages in a different province…


----------



## Quirky (26 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> North of Muskoka, the well-to-do wouldn’t want their ritzy cottages in a different province…


The well-to-do likely think Canada ends at Muskoka anyway.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Draw a line just north of Barrie?


Some would say north of Steeles Ave. (or wherever the street lights stop).  It would rival NL for federal equalization payments.  Pretty much all of the wealth generated in the resource industries is reported either from Toronto or offshore.


----------



## suffolkowner (26 Nov 2022)

theres more blue in southern Ontario than northern Ontario



			https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/federal/2021/results/


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

I would say that it would be easier to keep the GTA and the western part of the Golden Horseshoe as Ontario and split of rest as separate provinces.  West of the new (smaller) province of Ontario, you'd have Hurona with the capital at London.  Split the area north of the new province (of Ontario) along the same line as the southern boundary of Quebec.  The southern part could be called North Ontario (just to be cheeky) with the capital at Kingston.  The northern part (that contains Ottawa) would end somewhere north of Petawawa and south of North Bay (not sure what to call it, maybe Ottawa, after the river, just for shits and giggles so that we'd have Ottawa, Ottawa ).  That would leave the whole north part of the current Province of Ontario as another province, capital at Sudbury (or Thunder Bay, maybe).
None of this will ever happen, of course, but I think that Ontario and Quebec are way too large and need to be split up into smaller provinces/territories just to balance things out in this country as a whole.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Nov 2022)

Or just merge PEI, NB, NS and NL into a single province called Irving; rename SK to "Alberta's Eastern Satrap", and use Manitoba to launch an unexpected invasion to liberate the Dakotas and rename it Greater Dakota.


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> I would say that it would be easier to keep the GTA and the western part of the Golden Horseshoe as Ontario and split of rest as separate provinces.  West of the new (smaller) province of Ontario, you'd have Hurona with the capital at London.  Split the area north of the new province (of Ontario) along the same line as the southern boundary of Quebec.  The southern part could be called North Ontario (just to be cheeky) with the capital at Kingston.  The northern part (that contains Ottawa) would end somewhere north of Petawawa and south of North Bay (not sure what to call it, maybe Ottawa, after the river, just for shits and giggles so that we'd have Ottawa, Ottawa ).  That would leave the whole north part of the current Province of Ontario as another province, capital at Sudbury (or Thunder Bay, maybe).
> None of this will ever happen, of course, but I think that Ontario and Quebec are way too large and need to be split up into smaller provinces/territories just to balance things out in this country as a whole.


Why not the opposite? Balance things out by condensing the Maritimes and prairies into two provinces?


----------



## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> The idea's been tossed about off and on for some time - with some in Kenora actually saying it out loud clearly - not to mention the NW becoming its own province.  There's even a political party keen on making Northern Ontario a separate province.
> 
> I'm told this kind of boundary change would need a constitutional amendment sort of thing - and we all know the odds of THAT happening soon, easily and quickly, right?
> 
> Besides, would Winnipeg enjoy taking on the searing white-hot loathing of the centre from this part of the world once we break our shackles tying us to Toronto The Good?



Doug Ford is already taking steps that would create a Toronto City-State.  The expansion of the GTA.  The Golden Horseshoe.  The more powerful mayor.   All he needs to do is reallocate taxing powers to John Tory.


----------



## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> The stats come from Ottawa.
> 
> 
> Homicide rates among census metropolitan areas highest in Regina, Thunder Bay and Winnipeg​
> ...




See also 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/indigenous-homicide-saskatchewan-1.6273828
		


Strong correlation between indigenous population and homicide rates.


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2022)

> Having dealt with rural emergency services during the blinding blizzard of early New Year's Eve in getting my hubby from our residence to a rural hospital and then the very expedient transfer into Ottawa Civic in 1.5 hours in extremely bad conditions with unplowed roads etc, it highlights why I vote those who consider an entire province and balance those requirements vice catering to the TO populace at the expense of all others.  Witness my hydro bill.  People should be in jail.
> For being rural who have to deal with shitty conditions, dispersed residents and long drives to essential facilities, as you stated, these folks will ALWAYS cost more per person and be far less "monetarily efficient" ... but to this rural resident, they are worth it and the city folk who can't grasp that concept should get over it.



Assuming Queen's Park grants the divorce, will that increase or decrease rural / remote response times?


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Why not the opposite? Balance things out by condensing the Maritimes and prairies into two provinces?


If it were easy to do that, it would've been done already, at least in the Maritimes.  That area was supposed to have joined as a single province with ON and QC to form Canada, but PEI got cold feet at the last moment.  That forced NB and NS to join separately, setting things up for what we have now.  Easier to split up than convince people to form a bigger unit as they will feel that they would have less of a voice in a larger entity.
As an idea, nothing wrong with uniting the West and Maritimes into super provinces, but would never get the politicians to agree.


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Doug Ford is already taking steps that would create a Toronto City-State.



Ottawa too.


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Ottawa too.


As long as that includes Gateau as well to form a Federal Capital Territory (kind of like Aussie's ACT) that would be fine.


----------



## Weinie (26 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> As long as that includes *Gateau *as well to form a Federal Capital Territory (kind of like Aussie's ACT) that would be fine.


Let them eat cake.


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> As long as that includes Gateau as well to form a Federal Capital Territory (kind of like Aussie's ACT) that would be fine.



Our ratepayers association says   to the "strong mayor". They say it will decrease our property values, nature and quality of life. "All politics is local." Tradition, unimpeded by progress. 

But, they say you can't fight City Hall. Or, Queen's Park, for that matter.
How will Toronto and Ottawa's new 'strong mayor' powers work?​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-ottawa-strong-mayor-1.6597520
		


Leaders of Ontario's two biggest cities will have new ways to exert influence once next council term starts​
Just have to wait to find out what that means for the neighbourhood. Sidewalks and more housing, I suppose. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

Making the mayors more powerful isn't the same as splitting the cities off as separate city-states/provinces.  Basically, making mayors more powerful just makes them quasi-dictators.  Not surprising that's supported by Doug Ford.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Or just merge PEI, NB, NS and NL into a single province called Irving; rename SK to "Alberta's Eastern Satrap", and use Manitoba to launch an unexpected invasion to liberate the Dakotas and rename it Greater Dakota.



I dont think you would ever get NFLD to join.  But NB, PEI and NS should form a single province. 









						Maritime Union - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dapaterson (26 Nov 2022)

Without NL, you're limited to a single land front when the inevitable invasion of Quebec occurs.


----------



## Furniture (26 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I dont think you would ever get NFLD to join.  But NB, PEI and NS should form a single province.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PEI would never join, the entire province has less people than Halifax alone. Why would they want to become a voiceless part of the HRM?


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

The two main things standing in the way of a Maritime union are PEI (as with original confederation, they are worried about losing their voice in a bigger union) and the Acadians.  I doubt a Maritime union would be officially bilingual (like NB is now) as there would be a large Anglophone majority with this union, making the Acadians even a smaller minority.


----------



## Furniture (26 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Our ratepayers association says   to the "strong mayor". They say it will decrease our property values, nature and quality of life. "All politics is local." Tradition, unimpeded by progress.
> 
> But, they say you can't fight City Hall. Or, Queen's Park, for that matter.
> How will Toronto and Ottawa's new 'strong mayor' powers work?​
> ...


The entire point of "Strong Mayors" is to overrule the NIMBYs preventing development required for Ontario's large cities to actually sustain their populations. 

If the people who pump your gas, and stock the grocery store shelves can't find a place to live the city isn't sustainable.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Nov 2022)

We have quite a ways to go to "unsustainable".  Choose London (UK) as an upper bound, for example.  Has it collapsed yet?


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> See also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a dreadful thing.

Some time ago I looked into OIS incidents in Quebec over the last couple decades, and a very large proportion involved Amerindians. 



torg003 said:


> If it were easy to do that, it would've been done already, at least in the Maritimes.  That area was supposed to have joined as a single province with ON and QC to form Canada, but PEI got cold feet at the last moment.  That forced NB and NS to join separately, setting things up for what we have now.  Easier to split up than convince people to form a bigger unit as they will feel that they would have less of a voice in a larger entity.
> As an idea, nothing wrong with uniting the West and Maritimes into super provinces, but would never get the politicians to agree.



It would be a challenge, certainly. Those politicians would need some guarantees, and so would the absorbed polities.

I agree with your assessment that the francophone Acadians present one of the tougher obstacles. Perhaps create their equivalent to article 40 of the constitution, or some framework in the spirit of: "_*40* Where an amendment is made under subsection 38(1) that transfers provincial legislative powers relating to* education or other cultural matters* from provincial legislatures to Parliament, Canada shall provide reasonable compensation to any province to which the amendment does not apply." _

Or, although probably much less palatable, split the territory along linguistic lines between Quebec and the newly constituted province.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Are you kidding? Hell yes the Toronto media calls us the Murder Capital of Canada already. Anything else is an improvement


As @mariomike pointed out, Winnipeg, murder capital?  Hold my beer ....








						NetNewsLedger - Thunder Bay Headed to Murder Capital of Canada Title Again
					

THUNDER BAY – OPINION – With eight murders in Thunder Bay so far in 2022, the city is heading toward having that unwanted and dubious title of Murder Capital of Canada. In 2019 with seven homicides, Thunder Bay held the title. The City of Thunder Bay could be spared the title for 2022, only...




					www.netnewsledger.com
				











						Thunder Bay takes murder capital title from Abbotsford
					

One year ago, Abbotsford, B.C. was struggling to shake its title as the murder capital of Canada -- a distinction it earned as the result of a vicious gang war. The city has emerged victorious, but now Thunder Bay has moved into the spotlight with a new set of issues.



					www.ctvnews.ca
				











						Thunder Bay murder capital of Canada
					

Thunder Bay’s top cop isn’t surprised the city has earned the unfortunate title of the murder capital of Canada once again.




					www.chroniclejournal.com
				











						Thunder Bay the murder capital of Canada: StatsCan
					

TORONTO -- Canada's homicide rate remained at its lowest level in five decades last year but aboriginals accounted for a disproportionate number of the…




					torontosun.com
				











						Bloody Thunder Bay 'murder capital' of Canada - APTN News
					

Thunder Bay is the largest city in northwestern Ontario.




					www.aptnnews.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> As @mariomike pointed out, Winnipeg, murder capital?  Hold my beer ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just had our 46th last night


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> PEI would never join, the entire province has less people than Halifax alone. Why would they want to become a voiceless part of the HRM?



PEI needs to get over itself.


----------



## Furniture (26 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> PEI needs to get over itself.


No more so than any other region that feels underrepresented, or like they have no say in the outcome of elections...


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> PEI needs to get over itself.


But…but…Anne thinks not…


----------



## dapaterson (26 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> PEI needs to get over itself.



All downhill ever since they let they rest of the country connect.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Without NL, you're limited to a single land front when the inevitable invasion of Quebec occurs.



So, good poutine and beautiful women... Whats the problem ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> No more so than any other region that feels underrepresented, or like they have no say in the outcome of elections...



Not that anywhere in the Maritimes has a whole ton of pull, but they would probably have more in a union with NB and NS.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Not that anywhere in the Maritimes has a whole ton of pull, but they would probably have more in a union with NB and NS.



Tangentially, I thought this was a good - if unintentional - ad for Maritime living... for some people 

I'm sober but live in a drinking town. Dating is complicated​
Dating is complicated for Robyn Schleihauf, who has been sober for three years but lives in Nova Scotia where drinking is ubiquitous.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/first-person-dating-when-sober-1.6645281


----------



## Kat Stevens (26 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> The two main things standing in the way of a Maritime union are PEI (as with original confederation, they are worried about losing their voice in a bigger union) and the Acadians.  I doubt a Maritime union would be officially bilingual (like NB is now) as there would be a large Anglophone majority with this union, making the Acadians even a smaller minority.


There's a large population on Cape Breton that can't speak English either, so a three way tie for first.


----------



## Navy_Pete (26 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> It's a dreadful thing.
> 
> Some time ago I looked into OIS incidents in Quebec over the last couple decades, and a very large proportion involved Amerindians.



No real surprise when you have three or four generations pretty screwed up by the residential schools, forced relocation etc in the last 100 years trying to raise the next one. I think that's what they had in mind with 'intergenerational trauma'.


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> There's a large population on Cape Breton that can't speak English either, so a three way tie for first.


Cape Breton was its own separate colony for several decades, but later rejoined to NS.  Wonder how much separatist sentiment is there?  You might see them want to secede from a Maritime union claiming protection for Gaelic language and culture rights.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> As @mariomike pointed out, Winnipeg, murder capital?  Hold my beer ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you aren't Indigenous, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.  I live right in the heart of Fort William and I'm certain 99% of the murders are Indigenous murdering other Indigenous.

They send all the problem children from Northern Communities as well who inevitably end up getting in to drugs and living on the street.


----------



## RangerRay (26 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Or, although probably much less palatable, split the territory along linguistic lines between Quebec and the newly constituted province.



The few New Brunswick Acadians I met absolutely detested Québécois. I doubt they would go for that.


----------



## torg003 (26 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The few New Brunswick Acadians I met absolutely detested Québécois. I doubt they would go for that.


I lived in NB when I was young, and I can say that is true.  Acadians speak a different kind of French than Quebecois and are very proud of their Acadian language and culture.


----------



## Remius (26 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The few New Brunswick Acadians I met absolutely detested Québécois. I doubt they would go for that.


It’s the same for most Francophone communities outside QC.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s the same for most Francophone communities outside QC.


Herein we see the “moral superiority “ complex Quebec thinks it has. It sees itself as the Protector of French Canadian language and society. It’s not unlike the Saudis and Islam.


----------



## Remius (26 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Herein we see the “moral superiority “ complex Quebec thinks it has. It sees itself as the Protector of French Canadian language and society. It’s not unlike the Saudis and Islam.


It has a lot to do with having that moral superior attitude and being completely ignorant (willfully or otherwise) that Franco communities exist outside their borders.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Not that anywhere in the Maritimes has a whole ton of pull, but they would probably have more in a union with NB and NS.


I'm not so sure.  Right now three entities get to sit at federal-provincial conferences, sent delegates to Ottawa and otherwise whine for federal dollar.  I think fewer but geographically larger provinces would be gift to the federal government and create further imbalance.


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The few New Brunswick Acadians I met absolutely detested Québécois. I doubt they would go for that.


Oh, I very much doubt they would indeed. I'm just throwing ideas at the wall, really.

The idea that anyone would detest a whole other group is rather strange, however. I get it if we were talking about Ukrainians and Russians or Japs and Koreans, but... there really a isn't historic feud that justifies it in this case.


----------



## Remius (26 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Oh, I very much doubt they would indeed. I'm just throwing ideas at the wall, really.
> 
> The idea that anyone would detest a whole other group is rather strange, however. I get it if we were talking about Ukrainians and Russians or Japs and Koreans, but... there really a isn't historic feud that justifies it in this case.


Detest isn’t the word I would use either.  Call it love/hate.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Oh, I very much doubt they would indeed. I'm just throwing ideas at the wall, really.
> 
> *The idea that anyone would detest a whole other group is rather strange,* however. I get it if we were talking about Ukrainians and Russians or Japs and Koreans, but... there really a isn't historic feud that justifies it in this case.



Or, in Canada, just another government policy:

How the CAQ is rebranding Quebec nationalism​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/caq-quebec-nationalism-1.6475684


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Detest isn’t the word I would use either.  Call it love/hate.


Yes, perhaps I got too hung up on the specific word.

I get the sentiment tho; the feeling of being subsumed into an ever greater whole - regardless of whether that greater whole happens to speak French or English - and the inherent risk to the culture and way of life that that would carry, are not negligible.

@daftandbarmy I think this comment gives you a better insight on where my mind is at wrt these issues. Yours is a reflection of the reality we have come to know as the ''Two solitudes''. The article is written in the age-old style of ''White man knows best''. White saviour complex lives on...

Anyway, I don't want to derail another thread with this.


----------



## Remius (27 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Yes, perhaps I got too hung up on the specific word.
> 
> I get the sentiment tho; the feeling of being subsumed into an ever greater whole - regardless of whether that greater whole happens to speak French or English - and the inherent risk to the culture and way of life that that would carry, is not negligible.


It stems from Quebec abdicating it’s role in French Canadian Culture and choosing to create its own unique identity during the 50s and 60s and abandoning the rest to their fates.  If you aren’t Quebecois you don’t really matter.


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2022)

After watching "Rome", no word sounding like "kak" ("cac") will ever be the same for me.


----------



## mariomike (27 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Dating is complicated for Robyn Schleihauf, who has been sober for three years but lives in Nova Scotia where drinking is ubiquitous.



I envy people who drink. At least they have something to blame everything on.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Nov 2022)

I haven't been following the EA inquiry too closely.

From what I see:

-Police didn't request it contrary to the government initially saying they did.
-CSIS said the protest/situation didn't constitute a threat to national security which is what is supposed to be required to use the EA.
-CSIS went so far as to say enacting the EA would actually radicalize protesters and push them toward violence.

Trudeau enacted the EA anyways.




Trudeau wants violence to happen as a means to scare Canadians into voting for him.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I haven't been following the EA inquiry too closely.
> 
> From what I see:
> 
> ...



I tend to agree.


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I haven't been following the EA inquiry too closely.
> 
> From what I see:
> 
> ...


There, Jarn, I think that’s the latest version of the EA narrative…


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2022)

Not necessarily violence.  Just disorder, or the appearance of it.  Basically the same theme as the "soldiers in streets etc" and other ongoing fearmongering (end of this program, end of that freedom, blah blah blah).


----------



## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2022)

IIRC one line stood out from testimony for me.

An Ottawa MP declared "her" fear.   She felt that the protesters hated "Liberals".   This coincided with JT's disdain for those people that had been protesting him and his government since at least the previous federal campaign.

Their concern was that they personally were at risk of a coup.

This was in spite of external opinion.


Edit - Related

*Feb. 5: *Mr. Lametti is growing impatient with Mr. Sloly. In a text message with Mr. Mendicino, as big rigs, bouncy castles, food tents and other vehicles are parked outside the House of Commons, he texts Mr. Mendicino, “Need Sloly to be quick, quick, quick”.







In the inquiry,* Mr. Lametti said* in hindsight he would have softened his comments about Mr. Sloly but added that *he and his staff felt unsafe during the protests*.


So not professional assessments but personal feelings.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Nov 2022)

Lametti is a puppet. As is the Transport Minister.

Sacrificial lambs.


----------



## Kat Stevens (27 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Lametti is a puppet. As is the Transport Minister.
> 
> Sacrificial lambs.


There will be no blood, no sacrifice. A solemn heartfelt "we can do better". Canadians will roll over and bite the pillow again, and the Empire will endure. Again.


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2022)

"I felt unsafe."  "I have safety concerns."  "What if something bad could happen?"  "It might save one life."

The list of excuses is endless; just surprising to hear some of them from the people who sit around the big boy tables.


----------



## Kat Stevens (27 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "I felt unsafe."  "I have safety concerns."  "What if something bad could happen?"  "It might save one life."
> 
> The list of excuses is endless; just surprising to hear some of them from the people who sit around the big boy tables.


It seems liberal policy in it's totality is built around the cult of "IF". If my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle... well if she wanted to, that is.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> It seems liberal policy in it's totality is built around the cult of "IF". If my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle... well if she wanted to, that is.


Well under a Liberal government we could do that!!’


----------



## Furniture (27 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "I felt unsafe."  "I have safety concerns."  "What if something bad could happen?"  "It might save one life."
> 
> The list of excuses is endless; just surprising to hear some of them from the people who sit around the big boy tables.


They use emotional arguments, because they resonate with people more easily. 

Arguments based on reason require effort on the part of the listener, arguments based on emotion bypass that and requirement and stick in people's heads.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> They use emotional arguments, because they resonate with people more easily.
> 
> Arguments based on reason require effort on the part of the listener, arguments based on emotion bypass that and requirement and stick in people's heads.


Society has been conditioned to “feel” rather than think critically.


----------



## lenaitch (27 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Lametti is a puppet. As is the Transport Minister.
> 
> Sacrificial lambs.


They all are.  The are all beholden to and mouthpieces for 'the centre' (PMO), which JT's dad really got going. At the provincial level, they're the same.  When she was SolGen, Sylvia Jones was noted for being less than whelming.  I'm expecting the same now that she is in charge of Health.

I don't have a huge problem with central management - somebody's gotta be in charge, but the PMO is full of non-elected people who run the joint.


----------



## Remius (27 Nov 2022)

My personal take is still that the EA was not required but some testimony will likely give the PM a softer landing and if the current polling is correct it seems he hasn’t really been damaged by this.  But the final report may change that.  

My guess is the the commission will indicate that the threshold was not met despite the fact that the police had a complete breakdown but will add caveats that the current EA as written needs some serious updating.  It would make sense since it was written in 1985.  I’m not even sure why legislation like that doesn’t have a certain shelf life that requires revisiting. 

One thing that is a positive, is that the EA checks and balances requiring an inquiry seem to be working as intended.


----------



## brihard (27 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> My personal take is still that the EA was not required but some testimony will likely give the PM a softer landing and if the current polling is correct it seems he hasn’t really been damaged by this.  But the final report may change that.
> 
> My guess is the the commission will indicate that the threshold was not met despite the fact that the police had a complete breakdown but will add caveats that the current EA as written needs some serious updating.  It would make sense since it was written in 1985.  I’m not even sure why legislation like that doesn’t have a certain shelf life that requires revisiting.
> 
> One thing that is a positive, is that the EA checks and balances requiring an inquiry seem to be working as intended.


I’m generally leaning in the direction of most of what you said. I definitely think the EA needs to be revisited, and that our definition of “threat to the security of Canada” needs updating to include economic threats by malign actors.

Agreed WRT checks and balances. As a result of invocation, we’ve seen the PM, several senior members of cabinet, and heads of several different agencies at various levels of government testify on the record and under oath, with thousands of documents tabled that would normally be tightly under wraps. The fact that all those people were compelled to testify and did so is an indicator of health in our rule of law.

I won’t pretend to have a clue about how this will play out politically. I’ll still be waiting for the report before I make up my mind.


----------



## Kat Stevens (27 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m generally leaning in the direction of most of what you said. I definitely think the EA needs to be revisited, and that our definition of “threat to the security of Canada” needs updating to include economic threats by malign actors.
> 
> Agreed WRT checks and balances. As a result of invocation, we’ve seen the PM, several senior members of cabinet, and heads of several different agencies at various levels of government testify on the record and under oath, with thousands of documents tabled that would normally be tightly under wraps. The fact that all those people were compelled to testify and did so is an indicator of health in our rule of law.
> 
> I won’t pretend to have a clue about how this will play out politically. I’ll still be waiting for the report before I make up my mind.


“Oh, we’ll I guess it wasn’t that bad”. Roll over and bite the pillow.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Nov 2022)

I’m impressed that the key Cabinet members’ PINs were released.


----------



## Kirkhill (28 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> They all are.  The are all beholden to and mouthpieces for 'the centre' (PMO), which JT's dad really got going. At the provincial level, they're the same.  When she was SolGen, Sylvia Jones was noted for being less than whelming.  I'm expecting the same now that she is in charge of Health.
> 
> I don't have a huge problem with central management - somebody's gotta be in charge, but the PMO is full of non-elected people who run the joint.



Might want to look up Keith Davey  Rainmaker


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> My personal take is still that the EA was not required but some testimony will likely give the PM a softer landing and if the current polling is correct it seems he hasn’t really been damaged by this.  But the final report may change that.
> 
> My guess is the the commission will indicate that the threshold was not met despite the fact that the police had a complete breakdown but will add caveats that the current EA as written needs some serious updating.  It would make sense since it was written in 1985.  I’m not even sure why legislation like that doesn’t have a certain shelf life that requires revisiting.
> 
> One thing that is a positive, is that the EA checks and balances requiring an inquiry seem to be working as intended.



A very balanced stance.  We share space at the bar.


----------



## FSTO (28 Nov 2022)

Several commentators have said it was refreshing to see and hear that the MP’s and cabinet ministers can talking openly, coherently and with depth instead of just talking points and deflecting. And they didn’t get burnt at the stake as a result. 

Massaging the story by political communications staff of all stripes is why the population is so annoyed and angry. If our leaders would talk to us like adults maybe we wouldn’t act like children.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Nov 2022)

I generally agree with recent comments.  Some media and others have been playing up different views and opinions presented as evidence of confusion or lack of leadership, but that's the way large organizations work.  Advisors and departments provide advice that may vary from each other, but the top of the pile owns the ultimate decision.  I would have been more concerned if the testimony was more 'unified'.

It seems the government played a little fast a loose with the definitions in the EA but I think they will weather that.  I was a little concerned with the head of CSIS and the PM's NSA testifying that it was okay to ignore the EA; their role is to speak truth to power.

It seems many who testified have seen the lesson that what you say in texts, tweets, etc. is there forever.  I wonder if they will learn from it.


----------



## Lumber (28 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> “Oh, we’ll I guess it wasn’t that bad”. Roll over and bite the pillow.


That's a little inappropriate, don't you think?


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> IIRC one line stood out from testimony for me.
> 
> An Ottawa MP declared "her" fear.   She felt that the protesters hated "Liberals".   This coincided with JT's disdain for those people that had been protesting him and his government since at least the previous federal campaign.
> 
> ...



If I had hundreds of people with giant 'F*ck Navy_Pete' flags outside my workplace chanting for me to be overthrown, in the context of recent armed lunatics running into my fence, foiled kidnapping/assassination attempts of people doing similar work, and my neighbour had been stormed with people looking to hang them, I'd probably feel unsafe as well, and not necessarily confident in the reassurances of people not in the same building that there was no threat, or from people that had been dropping the ball for weeks that a settlement was pending (yet again).

For all the people treating it like a party, there was a large contingent of pretty hardcore, very aggressive people acting generally unhinged while they were in town. Anyone who will start yelling at a random cashier in a grocery store that they are a brainwashed sheep is a piece of shit IMHO.


----------



## ArmyRick (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> If I had hundreds of people with giant 'F*ck Navy_Pete' flags outside my workplace chanting for me to be overthrown, in the context of recent armed lunatics running into my fence, foiled kidnapping/assassination attempts of people doing similar work, and my neighbour had been stormed with people looking to hang them, I'd probably feel unsafe as well, and not necessarily confident in the reassurances of people not in the same building that there was no threat, or from people that had been dropping the ball for weeks that a settlement was pending (yet again).
> 
> For all the people treating it like a party, there was a large contingent of pretty hardcore, very aggressive people acting generally unhinged while they were in town. Anyone who will start yelling at a random cashier in a grocery store that they are a brainwashed sheep is a piece of shit IMHO.


If we had a Prime Minister with an ounce of integrity, accountability and Transparency, then believe me, this protest wouldn't have happened.

What he did was use a gun to get rid of a fly when a fly swatter would have done. And now the Trudeau Liberals are very poorly justifying their decision. It was overkill.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> If we had a Prime Minister with an ounce of integrity, accountability and Transparency, then believe me, this protest wouldn't have happened.



Or a police force that could do its job. They clearly failed to put a credible plan together to address the protests, which is a huge miss.

When the police fail, in the minds of the politicians, the Army is next... and that's when the bodies start piling up.


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> If we had a Prime Minister with an ounce of integrity, accountability and Transparency, then believe me, this protest wouldn't have happened.
> 
> What he did was use a gun to get rid of a fly when a fly swatter would have done. And now the Trudeau Liberals are very poorly justifying their decision. It was overkill.


Maybe, but regardless, it did get to that point, and I don't think key people and there staff feeling unsafe during the protests was exaggerated, as there were very vocal elements calling for the government to be overthrown, as we had all watched the US capitol get stormed a little over a year before that with a few people getting killed.

I do think if the EA hadn't been enacted and the Federal government stepped in though, it would have gone on for several more weeks at least. I don't agree with the individuals bank accounts getting frozen and some other aspects of it, but the police action here in Ottawa was well done and glad it ended it peacefully. Not sure things wouldn't have escalated otherwise as people were sick and tired so there were counter protests going where the convoy folks were getting stopped by crowds of locals and forced to surrender their flags before they were able to head out somewhere. That was only going to escalate.


----------



## Lumber (28 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> What he did was use a gun to get rid of a fly when a fly swatter would have done.


Are you referring to the provincially instituted COVID restrictions?


----------



## Rifleman62 (28 Nov 2022)

Trudeau is going to be nominated for an Emmy Award for his performance on Friday.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Maybe, but regardless, it did get to that point, and I don't think key people and there staff feeling unsafe during the protests was exaggerated, as there were very vocal elements calling for the government to be overthrown, as we had all watched the US capitol get stormed a little over a year before that with a few people getting killed.
> 
> I do think if the EA hadn't been enacted and the Federal government stepped in though, it would have gone on for several more weeks at least. I don't agree with the individuals bank accounts getting frozen and some other aspects of it, but the police action here in Ottawa was well done and glad it ended it peacefully. Not sure things wouldn't have escalated otherwise as people were sick and tired so there were counter protests going where the convoy folks were getting stopped by crowds of locals and forced to surrender their flags before they were able to head out somewhere. That was only going to escalate.



I can understand that some may have been scared, but I also think it was unfounded and unreasonable and probably exacerbated by the long time Canadian attribute which is to look south and import those emotions; and a media that thrives and exists on fear, drama and emotions.  

Anyways, its over and we didn't need the Army.  And JT and his government will likely get away with misusing the EA.


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I can understand that some may have been scared, but I also think it was unfounded and unreasonable and probably exacerbated by the long time Canadian attribute which is to look south and import those emotions; and a media that thrives and exists on fear, drama and emotions.
> 
> Anyways, its over and we didn't need the Army.  And JT and his government will likely get away with misusing the EA.


Having seen the trucker convoy up close and personal, I would disagree. There was some pretty friendly people, but also a lot of very aggressive, in your face loud people actively accosting people. Not just downtown; as I alluded to some of them took their politics all over the city with them and would yell at random people wearing masks, or get pissed off at workers asking them to put on a mask (as required by provincial health orders with fines on the business for non-compliance).

It was bad enough that a lot of businesses shut down for their worker's safety, but on the plus side random people kept coming to the defence of cashiers, stock takers etc when some asshole started losing their mind. Some of them seemed to actively go out of their way to 'stick it to the libs' or whatever and were just obnoxious and acting like bullies, which worked right up until total strangers started to band together against them.

We get large protests all the time, and usually the May Day, anti-abortion, and some other annual ones have more people come into town for them, but never felt the same kind of tension in the city as with this one, as the rest are pretty self contained, whereas this one protestors were harrassing and threatening random people that had nothing to do with what their issue, and also threatening violence against the government.


----------



## QV (28 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> My personal take is still that the EA was not required but some testimony will likely give the PM a softer landing and if the current polling is correct it seems he hasn’t really been damaged by this. But the final report may change that. My guess is the the commission will indicate that the threshold was not met despite the fact that the police had a complete breakdown but will add caveats that the current EA as written needs some serious updating. It would make sense since it was written in 1985. I’m not even sure why legislation like that doesn’t have a certain shelf life that requires revisiting. One thing that is a positive, is that the EA checks and balances requiring an inquiry seem to be working as intended.



If you are of the premise that this law requires updating because it was written in 1985, are you also of the same premise that the Charter of Rights needs some serious updating? They are of the same era.

The definitions in the EA are strict on purpose, it is meant to only be enacted in actual national emergencies which parliament has defined, not emergencies that a bureaucrat or a political party can define in the moment.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> That's a little inappropriate, don't you think?


Nope


----------



## Quirky (28 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Nope


You've hurt their feelings. Apologize.


----------



## Remius (28 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> If you are of the premise that this law requires updating because it was written in 1985, are you also of the same premise that the Charter of Rights needs some serious updating? They are of the same era.


No. 


QV said:


> The definitions in the EA are strict on purpose, it is meant to only be enacted in actual national emergencies which parliament has defined, not emergencies that a bureaucrat or a political party can define in the moment.



I am not saying it should be defined in the moment but I think you can agree that the definition of what constitutes a national threat has evolved over time.  Like a lot of legislation it fails to keep up with evolving times, emerging technologies and threats.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> If you are of the premise that this law requires updating because it was written in 1985, are you also of the same premise that the Charter of Rights needs some serious updating? They are of the same era.
> 
> The definitions in the EA are strict on purpose, it is meant to only be enacted in actual national emergencies which parliament has defined, not emergencies that a bureaucrat or a political party can define in the moment.


Yes the Charter and Constitution should be updated but I will not hold my breath. 
The EA was enacted by parliament. Was it though? Was it passed by the Senate? Did it need to be? GG signed? Im forgetting everything that happened


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Having seen the trucker convoy up close and personal, I would disagree. There was some pretty friendly people, but also a lot of very aggressive, in your face loud people actively accosting people. Not just downtown; as I alluded to some of them took their politics all over the city with them and would yell at random people wearing masks, or get pissed off at workers asking them to put on a mask (as required by provincial health orders with fines on the business for non-compliance).
> 
> It was bad enough that a lot of businesses shut down for their worker's safety, but on the plus side random people kept coming to the defence of cashiers, stock takers etc when some asshole started losing their mind. Some of them seemed to actively go out of their way to 'stick it to the libs' or whatever and were just obnoxious and acting like bullies, which worked right up until total strangers started to band together against them.
> 
> We get large protests all the time, and usually the May Day, anti-abortion, and some other annual ones have more people come into town for them, but never felt the same kind of tension in the city as with this one, as the rest are pretty self contained, whereas this one protestors were harrassing and threatening random people that had nothing to do with what their issue, and also threatening violence against the government.



That's fair.  I wasn't there.


----------



## QV (28 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> No.
> 
> 
> I am not saying it should be defined in the moment but I think you can agree that the definition of what constitutes a national threat has evolved over time.  Like a lot of legislation it fails to keep up with evolving times, emerging technologies and threats.


I think the very strict definitions as outlined in the EA are more than adequate considering the existence of other laws that exist to deal with practically any and all threats. The EA is the modern day version of marshal law. The convoy's presence in Ottawa did not necessitate marshal law.


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That's fair.  I wasn't there.


I'd say it was probably the minority of folks, but still numbered in several hundred (so maybe 20-30%), and we still have some hanging around like the nutjobs in the former church.

I don't think it should have ever gotten to the point where anyone was ever considering the EA, but city hall and OPS leadership had lost the plot fairly early on, and had declared a state of emergency a few weeks before that, with some on council suggesting military assistance, so I think getting external policing resources is a much better alternative to getting military in to break it up.

As a piece of legislation I think it needs updating, but do like the public inquiry requirement. It does seems like portions of the EA gave them authority to do things like get the tow trucks in, but it would be nice if there was something available before that (some kind of court order?).

In general though don't think the legislation should be too specific, as the decision makers need room to manuever for changing societies, and I'm sure in 15 years there will be new things we haven't even thought of before (VR attacks?).


----------



## Lumber (28 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> I think the very strict definitions as outlined in the EA are more than adequate considering the existence of other laws that exist to deal with practically any and all threats. The EA is the modern day version of marshal law. The convoy's presence in Ottawa did not necessitate marshal law.


The health of many people in downtown Ottawa was being severely and negatively impacted, and the local authorities were proving to be incapable of dealing with the incident and protecting the citizens.

So, if this whole event had unfolded, but we changed all the terminology to say that "marshal law" had been enacted instead of the EA, I still think it would have been a reasonable use of the government's powers.


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That's fair.  I wasn't there.


I was, I experienced the protest differently than some of the vocal members here.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I'd say it was probably the minority of folks, but still numbered in several hundred (so maybe 20-30%), and we still have some hanging around like the nutjobs in the former church.
> 
> I don't think it should have ever gotten to the point where anyone was ever considering the EA, but city hall and OPS leadership had lost the plot fairly early on, and had declared a state of emergency a few weeks before that, with some on council suggesting military assistance, so I think getting external policing resources is a much better alternative to getting military in to break it up.
> 
> ...



I think we have a few pieces of legislation that could use some updating. 

Specifically those in reference  to the cyber world.


----------



## Lumber (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was, I experienced the protest differently than some of the vocal members here.


Please go on.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was, I experienced the protest differently than some of the vocal members here.



If you say that three times another Trudeau is created.  Be careful.  No one needs that.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

Like others I was not in Ottawa. I do not think the EA was justified. I do think that there should be some mechanism by which the federal government can act when the province an police do not. I do think economics factor in.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Like others I was not in Ottawa. I do not think the EA was justified. I do think that there should be some mechanism by which the federal government can act when the province an police do not. I do think economics factor in.



You mean like when a province tells its police force not to enforce laws ? 

Sounds like it could be a slippery slope.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (28 Nov 2022)

The company I work for ( Property Management ) owns a block of buildings in that area.  It was hard to get to and from for after hour calls, and when the police operation started to limit and control traffic in the area it became even harder to do our jobs.

There were 2 sides to the protest, the protesters and the police.

Ottawa Police Service is very small operation for the size of the city geographically.  2790 square Km  1 million plus people.  1480 officers , 620 support staff. Budget of $346 million  ( compared to Toronto  5500 officers, another 2000 support staffer, and 630 square km and 2.093 million people. Budget of 1.1 Billion dollars)  request for 1800 officers , that is more than all of OPS has to begin with, and still needed officers for normal day  to day operations.

The city of Ottawa has more than one police service , ( RCMP for Federal land and diplomatic properties, OPP for highways 417, 416,  Military Police for DND sites, armouries, ranges and other buildings and the Parliament Protect Services (Parliamentary Protective Service is not a law enforcement agency, and its officers are not peace officers. They are, however, public officers which allows them to be exempt from various weapon restrictions  under the control of the Speaker of the House, and other staff), and believe it or not CN and CP police for the railway lands  if required.

The downtown core is most likely the most confusing zone for policing in the city.  One side of the street is one agency and the other side of the street is another agency. Lack of communication between agencies has been a factor for many years. Bus hostage taking on the Hill 1989,  the shooting at the National War Memorial,  this Protest have all complained about lack of communication abilities between services and the over lapping boundaries of control.  

The handling of the protest was very professional and very Canadian like , unlike the operations we all have watched on CNN and other US news services.  If this happened in the US, the mayor and his staff can request National Guard troops from the State Governor ( The Governor can activate National Guard personnel to "State Active Duty" in response to natural or man-made disasters or Homeland Defense missions. State Active Duty is based on State statute and policy and on State funds. Soldiers and Airmen remain under the command and control of the Governor. )  The Guard roles in with whatever equipment the Guard has to move troops, buses , trucks, Humvee, helicopters etc, and weapons.  Then it becomes a military operation,  we have all watched the NG doing riot control at various things over the last couple of years.  Not always a great moment to be remembered. Shootings, tear gas, rubber bullets etc. 

Canadian Police even handed out notices detailing directions to vacate the area and a time limit.  
There were no military equipment bought in to support the police operation.  Some CS gas was used,  one non lethal weapon was used, ( no charges laid by the Ontario SIU ) Horse unit from Toronto had an incident of stepping on a person, ( reports of her being killed, were very wrong and blown out of proportion like most things from the Protester side) .

Problems this protest caused for Policing were a ripple effect right down the Ottawa Valley,  OPP service most of the Ottawa Valley from East of Ottawa to Deep River along the highway 17.  It limited the number of Officers available to deal with traffic accidents, missing children ( called the police about a toddler wandering the streets of Renfrew in nothing but 1 piece PJs and boots in Jan, I was told by the 911 operator that officers were on the way  to attend but were coming from all over the Valley because there not a lot of staff available, coming from outside the area .

There were no serious injuries, no one was killed,  ( 14 days of protests in the USA and 19 plus reported killed in Spring of 2020 ) 

I have a solution to the problem and it would most likely take an Act of Parliament,  Queens Park and National Assembly in Quebec City.


National Capital Area is taken over and treated like a Province within 2 Provinces  

The down town core becomes a Federal Police area, on both sides of the River.  Removing all jurisdiction issues from The OPP, OPS , RCMP and the PPS.  Creating a RCMP zone that they police just like the other Federal Lands. Remove commercial traffic from most of the area, unless on deliveries etc.  Create a Command team for larger operations that would involve the OPP and OPS, and MPs but command is under 1 Service Commander.  Budget control is thru the Federal Government to the RCMP so the City of Ottawa does not have to go after the fact ask to pass the hat for donations from the Federal Government to cover things that the OPS has to support. 

Have training operations with the major Police Services across Ontario and Quebec so when they are called upon for support they can work together and use the same training books so to speak.  Every Police service that was sent , had different training, PPE, and comms gear. Not many of the Units have knowledge of working with a Mounted Unit and crown control on horse back.  Annual training as a team should be done.  So they have the same basic knowledge of how things work on the larger scale. 

The control of the Protest would of been managed better if there single chain of command. Not 3 or 4 chains. 
just some thoughts I have had 
now rip them apart _s_


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Please go on.


I saw a few vocal and potentially dangerous idiots, as well a lot of vocal and not dangerous idiots. 

I saw/heard of lots of ranting at store staff well before the convoy, and saw some after as well. A few yahoos yelling is not reason to freeze bank accounts.. 

The police dropped the ball, but there was no threat to Canada sufficient to justify the EA. Downtown Ottawa was severely impacted, just outside the downtown not at all.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You mean like when a province tells its police force not to enforce laws ?
> 
> Sounds like it could be a slippery slope.


only if it doesnt apply to firearms than its ok if the province says no. It is a slippery slope but I have confidence that we here and not the foolswe elect can figure it out


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I saw a few vocal and potentially dangerous idiots, as well a lot of vocal and not dangerous idiots.
> 
> I saw/heard of lots of ranting at store staff well before the convoy, and saw some after as well. A few yahoos yelling is not reason to freeze bank accounts..
> 
> The police dropped the ball, but there was no threat to Canada sufficient to justify the EA. Downtown Ottawa was severely impacted, just outside the downtown not at all.


what about the communities in the area that had a real lack of police because officers were shifted to the Ottawa area to cover off.  The Valley was impacted by this.  Guess they did not matter


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> what about the communities in the area that had a real lack of police because officers were shifted to the Ottawa area to cover off.  The Valley was impacted by this.  Guess they did not matter


They mattered, but it wasn't a threat to Canada. 

Want to be mad, be mad the the provincial and municipal governments that didn't hire/retain enough police to do thr job.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> The health of many people in downtown Ottawa was being severely and negatively impacted, and the local authorities were proving to be incapable of dealing with the incident and protecting the citizens.


The problem with accepting that local authorities may prove to be incapable is that there's no apparent hard line preventing anyone from choosing to prove to be incapable.  There shouldn't be any back doors for things authorities might find difficult or inconvenient by ordinary means.

When a captain loses his ship, there's an inquiry, and consequences if he was not wholly competent.  Maybe we need that for all people in positions of authority - you f*ck it up, your life takes a hard U-turn.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> They mattered, but it wasn't a threat to Canada.
> 
> Want to be mad, be mad the the provincial and municipal governments that didn't hire/retain enough police to do thr job.


are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?


It does to me. I had thousands of dollars worth of property stolen and received an email saying they may not even investigate, the report may just be used for statistics and trend tracking. 

Ottawa has a very low police to population ratio, and it shows if you live in the right neighborhood.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?


Yes. Very. Across the board, and certainly including in Ottawa. But, for a major event or crisis, sufficient police can be brought to bear, albeit at the cost of leaving a lot of other things uncovered, and yes, that can include slower response times for emergencies. Obviously, a really big event means drawing on other police services, but that’s normal at least in the context of anticipated and planned security events.

While the convoy did necessitate bringing many more police into the city to clear out, those police did all exist already. The invocation of the EA didn’t suddenly knit a thousand more cops.

There is a difference between “having the people needed” and “using the people to get the job done”.

IMHO, the longer it was allowed to go on, the more police were ultimately needed for the clearing operation. A hard push to remove them at first light the Tuesday after they showed up would have looked different from what happened three weeks later starting on a Friday morning into a weekend. Even at that, the clearing of the occupation went much more smoothly than many expected. The crowd didn’t have the backbone or the fight in them that they presented themselves as having.


----------



## QV (28 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Like others I was not in Ottawa. I do not think the EA was justified. I do think that there should be some mechanism by which the federal government can act when the province an police do not. I do think economics factor in.



Who decides the province or police are not doing enough? Someone like Trudeau?


----------



## QV (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Even at that, the clearing of the occupation went much more smoothly than many expected. The crowd didn’t have the backbone or the fight in them that they presented themselves as having.



I imagine this anecdote supports the premise the convoy participants were not violent, did not intend any harm or violence, and were never a threat to national security. 

Rather than just being cowardly, as you suggest.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Who decides the province or police are not doing enough? Someone like Trudeau?


It would have to be, wouldnt it? I mean I would say the House of Commons instead of Trudeau


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> It does to me. I had thousands of dollars worth of property stolen and received an email saying they may not even investigate, the report may just be used for statistics and trend tracking.
> 
> Ottawa has a very low police to population ratio, and it shows if you live in the right neighborhood.





brihard said:


> Yes. Very. Across the board, and certainly including in Ottawa. But, for a major event or crisis, sufficient police can be brought to bear, albeit at the cost of leaving a lot of other things uncovered, and yes, that can include slower response times for emergencies. Obviously, a really big event means drawing on other police services, but that’s normal at least in the context of anticipated and planned security events.
> 
> While the convoy did necessitate bringing many more police into the city to clear out, those police did all exist already. The invocation of the EA didn’t suddenly knit a thousand more cops.
> 
> ...



I live in the boonies. I've had things stolen before too and nothing ever happened except I got a number to give to the insurance. This has been true for me for decades.  Maybe big cities need more cops I dont know but in the country I dont see how it would make a difference unless we actually have like 10% of the population patrolling the streets. They still seem to find cars to ticket speeders although that doesnt seem to be as prevalent as before Covid. I dont see how you can fund police or hospitals etc for these worst case scenarios although I guess it could be said we do it with fire departments


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> I imagine this anecdote supports the premise the convoy participants were not violent, did not intend any harm or violence, and were never a threat to national security.
> 
> Rather than just being cowardly, as you suggest.


I didn’t say cowardly; they simply failed to deliver what they promised. That could be for any number of reasons. On the contrary, it took considerable grit and determination to stick it out through the brutal, brutal cold on that last weekend. Fortunately the resolve of the crowd did not match up with the resolve of specific individuals. For myself, I’m happy - very happy - that it went better than it could have or was expected to, whatever the reason for that was.

I’m not opining on the degree of overall threat they presented. Nor will I make the mistake of putting much weight on hindsight when evaluating decisions made at a point in time where some things were known, some things were believed/perceived, and other things were not.

I continue to wait for the conclusion of the commission (it’s not done yet- numerous experts in various things being consulted this week) and then the eventual publication of a report of findings.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (28 Nov 2022)

One of the things declaration of an Emergency does for the the local government is lift restriction on how they can spend money. 

Heavy Snow fall and they need another road grader, they can buy one without having to tender and wait and see what the price is. They just buy it. 


The EA would have some control about removing fiscal  restraints so the Government can move faster and deploy assets quicker. 
Need to move 500 police officers from BC to Ontario, here is the power to lease, or purchase tickets on commercial aircraft without having to put it out to tender or having to wait for the commercial carrier already under contract to have a plane available according to the schedule they are contracted to provide.  EA or EP would give the police the funds to lease or contract for buses and tow trucks etc.  
Had the EA and EP not been declared the OPS could be on the hook for everything and it would of eaten a huge hole in the budget of 350 million dollars. 

I would have to deep dive on the EA and see how I would understand the funding side of the Act and the powers that go with it


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> It would have to be, wouldnt it? I mean I would say the House of Commons instead of Trudeau





suffolkowner said:


> only if it doesnt apply to firearms than its ok if the province says no. It is a slippery slope but I have confidence that we here and not the foolswe elect can figure it out



I think we are seeing now, WRT firearms, what happens when one portion of the country wants to impose its ideology and beliefs on another.

I like the idea of provinces having more say in what they will police.  Regardless of what the feds think.  I can also see that too is a slippery slope and fully admit my bias. 

Perhaps we need some form of renegotiation of the confederation ?


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Who decides the province or police are not doing enough? Someone like Trudeau?


Yes, that's part of being the Prime Minister, who is at the head of Cabinet and in overall control of the elected government. They are ultimately answerable to Canadians and Parliament, but our PM has a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it. Harper did frequently during Aghanistan.



QV said:


> I imagine this anecdote supports the premise the convoy participants were not violent, did not intend any harm or violence, and were never a threat to national security.
> 
> Rather than just being cowardly, as you suggest.


Some protestors were violent (like the security guard that got beat up) and others threatened direct violence, so there were a number of criminal investigations on the go. Given that 60ish% of our trade goes to the US, I'd definiytely say there are National security implications other than just physical attacks though.


----------



## Remius (28 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think we are seeing now, WRT firearms, what happens when one portion of the country wants to impose its ideology and beliefs on another.
> 
> I like the idea of provinces having more say in what they will police.  Regardless of what the feds think.  I can also see that too is a slippery slope and fully admit my bias.
> 
> Perhaps we need some form of renegotiation of the confederation ?


I think that would be the best fixes for firearms would be to devolve it to the provinces.  Not sure how that would work legally or constitutionally but it could alleviate some of the political issues behind certain gun laws. 

Or maybe set a threshold nationally and any province could then decide or not to go stricter if that is what they want.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (28 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Yes the Charter and Constitution should be updated but I will not hold my breath.
> The EA was enacted by parliament. Was it though? Was it passed by the Senate? Did it need to be? GG signed? Im forgetting everything that happened



Yes, the EA was passed by parliament (back in 1988).  As to the processes that were required on invoking the act and declaring an emergency, Parliament's part is mentioned here.






						Government of Canada declaration of a public order emergency - Canada.ca
					

In order to declare a public order emergency, Canada’s <em>Emergencies Act</em> requires that there be an emergency that arises from threats to the security of Canada that are so serious as to be a national emergency.




					www.canada.ca
				





> The Government must table a motion for confirmation of a declaration of emergency in both the House of Commons and the Senate *within seven sitting days* after the declaration is issued. The motion must be tabled with an explanation of the reasons for issuing the declaration.
> 
> _Motion for Confirmation of a Declaration of Emergency
> That, pursuant to section 58 of the Emergencies Act, this House confirm the declaration of a public order emergency proclaimed on February 14, 2022._



How did the House and Senate respond?  A reading of Hansard makes for good information and entertainment.  The motion was tabled in the House on Thursday 17 February https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-33/hansard#Int-11530415  Debate continued until 2400 hrs and was adjourned till 0700 the next day for continuation.
Circumstances precluded the House meeting that following day (Friday 18 Feb) so debate recommenced on Saturday, 19 Feb.   https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-34/hansard
Debate went into Sunday, 20 Feb.   https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-35/hansard
And continued into Monday, 21 Feb when the motion was put to the vote and carried.  https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer/en/44-1/house/sitting-36/hansard#Int-11539446

The Senate did not spend as much time debating the Declaration of a Public Order Emergency.  The motion was put to the Senate on Monday, 21 Feb.   https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/019db_2022-02-22-e
Debate was continued the next day, Tuesday 22 Feb, but the motion was withdrawn later in the day due to the revocation of the Public Order Emergency.   https://sencanada.ca/en/content/sen/chamber/441/debates/020db_2022-02-23-e#9


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yes, that's part of being the Prime Minister, who is at the head of Cabinet and in overall control of the elected government. They are ultimately answerable to Canadians and Parliament, but our PM has a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it. Harper did frequently during Aghanistan.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> They mattered, but it wasn't a threat to Canada.
> 
> Want to be mad, be mad the the provincial and municipal governments that didn't hire/retain enough police to do thr job.


I put the numbers out for the city of Ottawa,  2000 officers and staff,  343 million dollar budget for an area bigger than Toronto.  The City of Ottawa has 3 major police forces and each with their own area of responsibility.  When the GTA had the G7/G20 they also had to bring in Police from all over the country. Plus had federal troops in some areas. It was a preplanned movement of officers. 
 They had to steal police from other areas  to look after the city of Ottawa 
because some one dropped the ball and decided it was not going to last past a weekend.  The Ottawa Valley tax payer pays extra for the OPP to Police the communities and they provide a highway patrol also.  This protest had a ripple effect on police services across Ontario and across Canada.  Officers came from every where to give assistance to Ottawa.


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I put the numbers out for the city of Ottawa,  2000 officers and staff,  343 million dollar budget for an area bigger than Toronto.  The City of Ottawa has 3 major police forces and each with their own area of responsibility.  When the GTA had the G7/G20 they also had to bring in Police from all over the country. Plus had federal troops in some areas. It was a preplanned movement of officers.
> They had to steal police from other areas  to look after the city of Ottawa
> because some one dropped the ball and decided it was not going to last past a weekend.  The Ottawa Valley tax payer pays extra for the OPP to Police the communities and they provide a highway patrol also.  This protest had a ripple effect on police services across Ontario and across Canada.  Officers came from every where to give assistance to Ottawa.


That does not change the fact that the protest was not a threat to Canada. Inconvenient, exposed a weakness in Canadian policing capacity, and expensive, but not a threat to the nation. 

Enacting the EA because of bouncy castles, loud yahoos, and one minor assault sets a very low bar for future governments to "Whip out" their EA. Maybe next time a government does it, it won't be regarding a protest or issue you don't support.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Officers came from every where to give assistance to Ottawa.



Off the top of my head, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Sudbury, GTA, Quebec, I believe even some from Newfoundland. It was incredible, never seen anything like it.



Kat Stevens said:


>



But they are. _Not liking_ how elections pan out does not illegitimate them as the ultimate accountability mechanism between an elected government and the body politic. The government shall, in fact, answer to Canadians at the next election. There will simply be a multitude of things Canadians are _saying_, and one way or another some will be disappointed by the outcome. Fortunately, in our system, they get to try again a few years hence, and then again after that.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Off the top of my head, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Sudbury, GTA, Quebec, I believe even some from Newfoundland. It was incredible, never seen anything like it.
> 
> 
> 
> But they are. _Not liking_ how elections pan out does not illegitimate them as the ultimate accountability mechanism between an elected government and the body politic. The government shall, in fact, answer to Canadians at the next election. There will simply be a multitude of things Canadians are _saying_, and one way or another some will be disappointed by the outcome. Fortunately, in our system, they get to try again a few years hence, and then again after that.


and amazingly enough people complain about having unnecessary elections and how much they cost


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


>


See @brihard above, but yup, they sure are. Maybe an effective opposition would be a start; when the alternative is still crap things are crappy either way, so it's more of a lesser evil choice.

So far Canadians continue to decide LPC under Trudeau is a lesser evil, and in provincial politics Conservative parties have more success by deliberately distancing themselves from the federal party, which worked in Ontario and Nova Scotia. If someone keeps beating you maybe doubling down on the current approach won't work?





Caption: Provincial conservatives to CPC

Anyway, the PM and Cabinet have a lot of autonomy if they choose to use it, and I think this one is probably politically a wash (regardless of what the inquiry finds). That's all built into the Constitution, laws and regulations of this country, and gives flexibility for when things hit the fan.  I think I prefer the Westminster system to other forms of democracy which seem to just completely stagnate once they hit a certain size now that people seem to find it impossible to compromise politically and work together.

I'm personally happy with the general outcome of getting the protests cleared out, not okay with freezing accounts (which hasn't really been addressed in the inquiry unless I missed it), and think it could have been avoided if something had been done earlier. The EA was brought in with some specific limits, was closed off when things where done, and there is a public inquiry which has brought a lot more to light then I thought (like the PINs; that was unexpected).

Short term if Canadians don't like it it will get tracked in the opinion polls, longer term there is an election. If they do something popular/unpopular but still legal, what other recourse would you suggest?


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## FSTO (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> That does not change the fact that the protest was not a threat to Canada. Inconvenient, exposed a weakness in Canadian policing capacity, and expensive, but not a threat to the nation.
> 
> Enacting the EA because of bouncy castles, loud yahoos, and one minor assault sets a very low bar for future governments to "Whip out" their EA. Maybe next time a government does it, it won't be regarding a protest or issue you don't support.


Chantal Hébert continues to stress that all this support for the enacting the EA may open the door for a government that all these supporters don't like to enact it for railroad blockades or pipeline protests. Then what happens? When it's a group of annoying mainly white guys, folks don't mind if they get knocked around a bit. I'm pretty sure their tune will change if a group of POC's or left leaning white people get shoved around and arrested.


----------



## mariomike (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Fortunately, in our system, they get to try again a few years hence, and then again after that.



Well said.


----------



## FSTO (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> and think it could have been avoided if something had been done earlier.


I've said this a dozen times now. What I saw on the TCH between Virden and Brandon MB were things I never saw with the Yellow Vests or the United We Roll movements. Cars and Trucks sitting on the approach roads to the highway with people cheering them on. There was palatable frustration and anger out there and this convoy was the manifestation of that feeling, and the federal governing party (that has no concept of the people who live outside of corporate law and high academia) did not take any opportunity to do some recon on these folks as they approached Ottawa. It's almost criminal that the national police force coupled with CSIS would not be able to have a clear picture of the movers in the convoy, where they were going and what they wanted to do by the time they got to Ottawa. Then not communicating to the OPS/OPP this info so that the two, at a minimum, plan to divert the heavy trucks from the downtown is head scratching. 
Our leaders have this annoying habit of reacting to instead of getting ahead of an issue. Maybe they'll learn something from the convoy/occupation. Not holding my breath.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> See @brihard above, but yup, they sure are. Maybe an effective opposition would be a start; when the alternative is still crap things are crappy either way, so it's more of a lesser evil choice.
> 
> So far Canadians continue to decide LPC under Trudeau is a lesser evil, and in provincial politics Conservative parties have more success by deliberately distancing themselves from the federal party, which worked in Ontario and Nova Scotia. If someone keeps beating you maybe doubling down on the current approach won't work?
> 
> ...


All the shitty things that shitty man has perpetrated since he first squeezed that smug little mug out from between Maggie’s thighs, without being once held accountable, and you still believe that?


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> It's almost criminal that the national police force coupled with CSIS would not be able to have a clear picture of the movers in the convoy, where they were going and what they wanted to do by the time they got to Ottawa. Then not communicating to the OPS/OPP this info so that the two, at a minimum, plan to divert the heavy trucks from the downtown is head scratching.



That wouldn’t be CSIS’s jam unless they assessed, at that time, a threat to the security of Canada that justified an investigation. Even at that, assuming CSIS would share much with law enforcement is… optimistic. My understanding is that they jealously guard their sources and methods, and that the LE/CSIS info flow is very one way.

I don’t believe there was any lack of communication across services about what was coming and what was known. Certainly by the time the western convoy was into Ontario there was solid info on how many vehicles had committed past Manitoba- and that meant several days’ heads up as they wrinkled their way east. I can’t speak to what OPS did with the information once received; the inquiry certainly didn’t paint a flattering picture on the analysis and dissemination of that particular intelligence within OPS.

I’ve certainly gotten the impression that there was a serious _reluctance to act_ at the very top of Ottawa Police. Anecdotally, within a day and a half of him stepping down, Bell stepping up, and OPS/OPP/RCMP forming unified command, it was clear to those of us working the event that the approach had shifted and that enforcement was very imminent. I think and perceived that any delay between Sloly’s resignation and the commencement of clearing was the minimum necessary to arrange and actually physically bring the needed bodies in from other jurisdictions, and to actually execute the plan now that it was permitted.


----------



## Weinie (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> That wouldn’t be CSIS’s jam unless they assessed, at that time, a threat to the security of Canada that justified an investigation. Even at that, assuming CSIS would share much with law enforcement is… optimistic. My understanding is that they jealously guard their sources and methods, and that the LE/CSIS info flow is very one way.
> 
> I don’t believe there was any lack of communication across services about what was coming and what was known. Certainly by the time the western convoy was into Ontario there was solid info on how many vehicles had committed past Manitoba- and that meant several days’ heads up as they wrinkled their way east. I can’t speak to what OPS did with the information once received; the inquiry certainly didn’t paint a flattering picture on the analysis and dissemination of that particular intelligence within OPS.
> 
> I’ve certainly gotten the impression that there was a serious _reluctance to act_ at the very top of Ottawa Police. Anecdotally, within a day and a half of him stepping down, Bell stepping up, and OPS/OPP/RCMP forming unified command, it was clear to those of us working the event that the approach had shifted and that enforcement was very imminent. I think and perceived that any delay between Sloly’s resignation and the commencement of clearing was the minimum necessary to arrange and actually physically bring the needed bodies in from other jurisdictions, and to actually execute the plan now that it was permitted.


Hind sight is 20/20. Foresight was myopic.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> Hind sight is 20/20. Foresight was myopic.


Concur. Senior police leadership failed to see what intelligence told them was coming, and failed to listen to what the protest organizers and leadership were themselves saying they were going to do.

Acknowledging my own hindsight moment: Someone may rightly point out that I myself, on this site, was very dismissive of the likelihood that the convoy protests would achieve any potency in Ottawa. I’ll freely admit I blew that call, and that I thought it would be a fart in the wind like most Ottawa protests or previous convoy movements such as the yellow vesters.

It’s unfortunate that senior police leadership, with access to far better information and expertise than I had, blew the call this badly and let the occupation establish itself and dig in


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s unfortunate that senior police leadership, with access to far better information and expertise than I had, blew the call this badly and let the occupation establish itself and dig in



/Tinfoil hat
It's also possible the police, with access to all that information, knew what was going to happen but someone higher up told them not to interrupt an enemy while they were making a mistake.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> /Tinfoil hat
> It's also possible the police, with access to all that information, knew what was going to happen but someone higher up told them not to interrupt an enemy while they were making a mistake.


Tin foil hat indeed. This was an OPS decision to make; the guy who failed to make it resigned in ignominy and his name is mud both in the eyes of the public and within the profession. And, while I see the federal government likely surviving this not too badly bruised, I see no actual tangible gain for them. There’s no actual sustained policy or other enduring government action that benefits the current government, _and_ which depended on the EA invocation to be able to either do or justify.

I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that the situation in Ottawa became what it did for any reason beyond the city’s police massively shitting the bed on how it handled things.


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Tin foil hat indeed. This was an OPS decision to make; the guy who failed to make it resigned in ignominy and his name is mud both in the eyes of the public and within the profession. *And, while I see the federal government likely surviving this not too badly bruised, I see no actual tangible gain for them.* There’s no actual sustained policy or other enduring government action that benefits the current government, _and_ which depended on the EA invocation to be able to either do or justify.
> 
> *I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that the situation in Ottawa became what it did for any reason beyond the city’s police massively shitting the bed on how it handled things.*


Yeah, the situation didn't get escalated by the government refusing to even acknowledge that anger that led to the protest, or the MSM latching onto the one guy who showed up with a covered face waving a swastika.... It's entirely just on the former OPS Chief.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You mean like when a province tells its police force not to enforce laws ?


I didn't follow the Inquiry closely; was there evidence of that?  Telling a police service not to do its job is different that not telling them to do it.  Admittedly, even the second element has problems of interpretation, in Ontario anyway, because of the way the Police Services Act is written and the way 'operational direction' is interpreted.


suffolkowner said:


> are we short police regularly? It doesnt seem that way to me at all?


I don't know if OPS is below its authorized strength, but do know that the OPP and RCMP are below strength; although I don't have the numbers.  Even for the strength they do have, the multitude of leaves impact deployable staffing, and I know the Ontario government consistently refuses to take those leaves into account.

Is there sufficient police for major events such as this?  Yes.  Is there sufficient police for major event such as this without negatively impacting service delivery?  No.  You don't design a church for Easter Sunday.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Yeah, the situation didn't get escalated by the government refusing to even acknowledge that anger that led to the protest, or the MSM latching onto the one guy who showed up with a covered face waving a swastika.... It's entirely just on the former OPS Chief.



I’m speaking of the failure to enforce the law, end the occupation, and restore public order. That was purely a policing matter, and it was primarily a matter of will, not of capacity.

I’m convinced from what I saw, heard, and experienced, that there was no reasonable course of action the federal government could have taken that would have satisfied the demands of the core groups within the occupation. Within the foreseeable future at the time, they were staying until forced out.



lenaitch said:


> I don't know if OPS is below its authorized strength, but do know that the OPP and RCMP are below strength; although I don't have the numbers.  Even for the strength they do have, the multitude of leaves impact deployable staffing, and I know the Ontario government consistently refuses to take those leaves into account.



OPS is way below strength. They’re desperately trying to hire, they’re losing a lot of people, and they have still more on sick leave or accommodated for disability and unable to go on the road. OPS is not in a good place.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> The company I work for ( Property Management ) owns a block of buildings in that area.  It was hard to get to and from for after hour calls, and when the police operation started to limit and control traffic in the area it became even harder to do our jobs.
> 
> There were 2 sides to the protest, the protesters and the police.
> 
> ...


Interesting concept that has obvious precedent in places like the US and Australia.  How the nitty gritty would work out here is unknown since it would have to start with a Constitutional amendment.  I'm not sure of a province-within-a-province is jurisdictionally sound, and if you create some kind of separate jurisdictional entity; i.e. another province or federal capital region, Ontario (and assuming Quebec) municipal and provincial police services lose natural authority.  There is a legislative method to have members sworn in both Ontario and Quebec, in addition to the emergency authorities that were enabled by the EA, but it is very clunky and essentially member specific.



Remius said:


> I think that would be the best fixes for firearms would be to devolve it to the provinces.  Not sure how that would work legally or constitutionally but it could alleviate some of the political issues behind certain gun laws.
> 
> Or maybe set a threshold nationally and any province could then decide or not to go stricter if that is what they want.


Under the Constitution, the federal government enacts criminal law but the provinces are responsible for the administration of justice.   A provincial AG can determine how and where to direct its judicial resources.  I can't recall if it's even been done in a big 'thumb-the nose-at-the-feds' way but the potential is certainly there.


Blackadder1916 said:


> Yes, the EA was passed by parliament (back in 1988).  As to the processes that were required on invoking the act and declaring an emergency, Parliament's part is mentioned here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the question was more about the Act itself.  I couldn't sources a doc showing the legislative progress but can only assume it following the normal course of House and Senate proceedings.  It received Royal Assent on 21 Jul 1988.  Declaration of orders under the Act is the purview of the Executive, similar to enacting Regulations.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (28 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Canadian Police even handed out notices detailing directions to vacate the area and a time limit.
> *There were no military equipment bought in to support the police operation. * Some CS gas was used,  one non lethal weapon was used, ( no charges laid by the Ontario SIU ) Horse unit from Toronto had an incident of stepping on a person, ( reports of her being killed, were very wrong and blown out of proportion like most things from the Protester side) .


However, there was that  RCAF/SOF King Air SIGINT  aircraft that was on occasion was circiling above the protest on Feb 10th and 11th.  According to government reports this was a training mission and it was just coincidental  that the flights occured the same time as the protest. And the link above seems to acknowledge that as the aircraft was flying around Ottawa prior to the convoy arrival. 

Now bear with me as I adjust my tinfoil hat, but whats the best training mission, but one when an being able to observe an actual protest??


----------



## lenaitch (28 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> The Ottawa Valley tax payer pays extra for the OPP to Police the communities and they provide a highway patrol also.


A bit of pedantic diversion, but Valley folk, like pretty much everybody else in Ontario, don't "pay extra"; they pay for police service.  Mike Harris drove funding of policing services down to the municipal level in the early '90s.  Any municipality is free to have their own service or pay somebody else - OPP or municipal - to do it for them.  Highway patrol, some other designated services such as aviation, as well as policing unorganized (no municipal government) are paid for by the province.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> However, there was that  RCAF/SOF King Air SIGINT  aircraft that was on occasion was circiling above the protest on Feb 10th and 11th.  According to government reports this was a training mission and it was just coincidental  that the flights occured the same time as the protest. And the link above seems to acknowledge that as the aircraft was flying around Ottawa prior to the convoy arrival.
> 
> Now bear with me as I adjust my tinfoil hat, but whats the best training mission, but one when an being able to observe an actual protest??



Indulging the theory for a moment- that would be on super shaky ground legally. DAOD 8008 governs defence intelligence, and any defence intelligence activity has to fall within Canadian law and serve defence purposes.

In theory, CAF could respond to a request for technical assistance from law enforcement under the NDA… But the mechanisms for law enforcement to intercept private communications are highly restrictive- there’s gotta be a warrant from a superior court judge, it has to be in the investigation of a specific offense (and that offense has to be on a list for which interception can be legally allowed), and, save for national security or organized crime cases, other investigative techniques must have failed or must be shown to be unlikely to succeed. Even under the slightly looser national security criteria, police would still have to convince a judge that the interception would afford evidence of an offense. There’s no way for police to back door this warrant requirement outside of a risk of serious imminent harm to persons or property.

If it’s simply a matter of physically tracking/geolocation emitting devices, you simply don’t need anything close to that sophisticated to physically track phones, and the legal requirements for physically tracking are quite a bit less burdensome than an intercept. CAF help simply wouldn’t be needed.

So… I highly doubt that CANSOF SIGINT capability was being used to assist law enforcement. Law enforcement have their own aircraft with great cameras and such, so a non-SIGINT role for such flights to assist LE is quite unlikely. I don’t know of a defence intelligence requirement that would justify and necessitate domestic SIGINT from an aerial platform over Ottawa, and if there was I doubt they’d squawk openly.

Of course, since we’re talking CANSOF and maybe SIGINT, I also don’t have a friggin’ clue generally, and I could be completely wrong.

/Indulging hypothetical ends.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> So… I highly doubt that CANSOF SIGINT capability was being used to assist law enforcement. Law enforcement have their own aircraft with great cameras and such, so a non-SIGINT role for such flights to assist LE is quite unlikely. I don’t know of a defence intelligence requirement that would justify and necessitate domestic SIGINT from an aerial platform over Ottawa, and if there was I doubt they’d squawk openly.
> 
> Of course, since we’re talking CANSOF and maybe SIGINT, I also don’t have a friggin’ clue generally, and I could be completely wrong.
> 
> /Indulging hypothetical ends.


Like I said originally strickly tinfoil territory,  but what if the flights were like they said "training" missions and not in support of LEO, would they still need a warrant or any other authorization?


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> Like I said originally strickly tinfoil territory,  but what if the flights were like they said "training" missions and not in support of LEO, would they still need a warrant or any other authorization?


Any interception of private communication without consent is an offence under the criminal code unless it falls under specific exempted circumstances, which are narrow. Having a warrant under Part VI of the crim code is one. A warrant under the CSIS act is another. The others generally have to do with spectrum management or telecommunications service quality control.

That’s not to say there may not be some other niche legal circumstance where CAF can intercept without consent for some domestic intelligence purpose… But I’m highly skeptical that any such need could have been articulated in conjunction with the convoy, or that an aerial platform would have been the right tool for the job. The convoy were, on the one hand, very openly using unencrypted apps like Zello, or unencrypted cellular communications, or, on the other side, likely using data-based apps with end to end encryption like Signal, Telegram, or WhatsApp. I just don’t see how a CANSOF plane fits into it.

Again, just to hedge, what I don’t know about CANSOF and SIGINT could fill volumes. My insight on this is just a bit better than a layman, save for a relatively deeper understanding of what police need for judicially authorized lawful interception.


----------



## Lumber (28 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> All the shitty things that shitty man has perpetrated since he first squeezed that smug little mug out from between Maggie’s thighs, without being once held accountable, and you still believe that?


He's been held accountable twice. They were the 2019 and 2021 elections, and he was given a pass.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I just don’t see how a CANSOF plane fits into it.


Occam’s Razor…it most likely doesn’t/didn’t.


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m speaking of the failure to enforce the law, end the occupation, and restore public order. That was purely a policing matter, and it was primarily a matter of will, not of capacity.
> 
> I’m convinced from what I saw, heard, and experienced, that there was no reasonable course of action the federal government could have taken that would have satisfied the demands of the core groups within the occupation. Within the foreseeable future at the time, they were staying until forced out.


Yeah, no point in trying to deescalate... Why send a representative to hear their concerns, and sit down with the protestors, when you can just pretend they aren't there and hope the city/province deals with the mess?  

The federal government made no attempt to try to deescalate the situation, and in reality just poured gas onto the fire hoping to make it work for cheap short-term politics. 



brihard said:


> Indulging the theory for a moment- that would be on super shaky ground legally. *DAOD 8008 governs defence intelligence, and any defence intelligence activity has to fall within Canadian law and serve defence purposes.*


That particular DAOD might be a bridge too far even for CANSOFCOM, but I've seen them and other L1s ignore a DAOD when it's inconvenient. So even without tinfoil, it's not hard to imagine an "enterprising" individual or two decided to us it as a training aid...


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Nov 2022)

Gawd the fucking fanboys on this site will let anything go from that man. Enjoy that pillow.


----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Yeah, no point in trying to deescalate... Why send a representative to hear their concerns, and sit down with the protestors, when you can just pretend they aren't there and hope the city/province deals with the mess?
> 
> The federal government made no attempt to try to deescalate the situation, and in reality just poured gas onto the fire hoping to make it work for cheap short-term politics.



You’re talking about the crew with the noose imagery, who tried to advance an ‘MOU’ that would supplant the House of Commons in government, and place them in its stead to work with the Senate and GG to… whatever it was they wanted?

The groups that combined to occupy downtown Ottawa and to force political change did nothing to show they were amenable to being persuaded by any course of action that would leave our democratically elected government in power. Those groups, on the occasions where they approached coherence, did not portray themselves as being likely parties in a responsible dialogue.

Sometimes when a child is having a tantrum, you pick them up and carry them out of the grocery store while they scream. I’m sure we don’t see this the same way of course, but I’m at peace with that.


----------



## Quirky (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> He's been held accountable twice. They were the 2019 and 2021 elections, and he was given a pass.



Just shows that Canadians get what they deserve. This country is a disaster and failure in so many ways since he was elected in 2015. Canadians seem to want more. 

Can’t wait to leave this shit bucket in my rear view mirror for good.


----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Just shows that Canadians get what they deserve. This country is a disaster and failure in so many ways since he was elected in 2015. Canadians seem to want more.
> 
> Can’t wait to leave this shit bucket in my rear view mirror for good.


And yet you do seem to be waiting. What’s stopping you?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> And yet you do seem to be waiting. What’s stopping you?


Same thing that stopped all the US celebrities in 2016 maybe????


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> You’re talking about the crew with the noose imagery, who tried to advance an ‘MOU’ that would supplant the House of Commons in government, and place them in its stead to work with the Senate and GG to… whatever it was they wanted?
> 
> The groups that combined to occupy downtown Ottawa and to force political change did nothing to show they were amenable to being persuaded by any course of action that would leave our democratically elected government in power. Those groups, on the occasions where they approached coherence, did not portray themselves as being likely parties in a responsible dialogue.
> 
> Sometimes when a child is having a tantrum, you pick them up and carry them out of the grocery store while they scream. I’m sure we don’t see this the same way of course, but I’m at peace with that.


Ah... so because the hardcore group wasn't willing to be reasonable, it makes total sense to ignore the hundreds/thousands who might very well have been reasonable. Imagine how much easier it could have been if the large majority of the group dissipated after a couple of days because the government even made a small attempt to act like it cared about the people who didn't vote for it. 

Leadership isn't getting people who already like you to agree with you, it's getting people who disagree with you to at least see where you are coming from and agree to work with you. There was a complete lack of leadership from the government, and it made what should have been an inconvenient mess into an international headline. 

Our entire system is based on the notion that despite your party not winning, you feel as though the government respects you, and gives you a fair hearing. When the government stops playing by those rules, the voters stop playing along by those rules as well. February it was bouncy castles and a few aggresive idiots, the next time it might be a lot worse.


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ah... so because the hardcore group wasn't willing to be reasonable, it makes total sense to ignore the hundreds/thousands who might very well have been reasonable. Imagine how much easier it could have been if the large majority of the group dissipated after a couple of days because the government even made a small attempt to act like it cared about the people who didn't vote for it.
> 
> Leadership isn't getting people who already like you to agree with you, it's getting people who disagree with you to at least see where you are coming from and agree to work with you. There was a complete lack of leadership from the government, and it made what should have been an inconvenient mess into an international headline.
> 
> Our entire system is based on the notion that despite your party not winning, you feel as though the government respects you, and gives you a fair hearing. When the government stops playing by those rules, the voters stop playing along by those rules as well. February it was bouncy castles and a few aggresive idiots, the next time it might be a lot worse.



No one at that convoy was going to be a Liberal vote.  Few people in that convoy were from regions that, I would bet, matter in the Canadian political system.  There was no benefit for the Government to talk to and try to understand the protest.

In fact quite the opposite.  The benefit came from strengthening fear, and furthering division.

Your last paragraph is exactly why I argue for a redistribution of the seats.  Make people feel ignored long enough and eventually they will make sure you hear them. 



Lumber said:


> He's been held accountable twice. They were the 2019 and 2021 elections, and he was given a pass.



Only as much as a petulant child; with inattentive parenting is held accountable.  But I agree we, as a nation, created this monster.


----------



## Remius (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ah... so because the hardcore group wasn't willing to be reasonable, it makes total sense to ignore the hundreds/thousands who might very well have been reasonable. Imagine how much easier it could have been if the large majority of the group dissipated after a couple of days because the government even made a small attempt to act like it cared about the people who didn't vote for it.
> 
> Leadership isn't getting people who already like you to agree with you, it's getting people who disagree with you to at least see where you are coming from and agree to work with you. There was a complete lack of leadership from the government, and it made what should have been an inconvenient mess into an international headline.
> 
> Our entire system is based on the notion that despite your party not winning, you feel as though the government respects you, and gives you a fair hearing. When the government stops playing by those rules, the voters stop playing along by those rules as well. February it was bouncy castles and a few aggresive idiots, the next time it might be a lot worse.



Given that, in that entire hodgepodge, who represented the reasonable?  Which convoy protest leader should he have met with?


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Just shows that Canadians get what they deserve. This country is a disaster and failure in so many ways since he was elected in 2015. Canadians seem to want more.
> 
> Can’t wait to leave this shit bucket in my rear view mirror for good.



By just what metrics are you measuring/assessing countries? By just about every metric, CANADA is a huge success; a beacon of safety, security, fairness and prosperity in an increasingly turbulent world.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Gawd the fucking fanboys on this site will let anything go from that man. Enjoy that pillow.


I've yet to see anyone on this site actually say they are a fan or supporter of Trudeau. Politics, as in life, isn't black and white.


----------



## Quirky (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> By just what metrics are you measuring/assessing countries? By just about every metric, CANADA is a huge success; a beacon of safety, security, fairness and prosperity in an increasingly turbulent world.


canada. A success. Wow.


----------



## Weinie (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> canada. A success. Wow.


We are talking first world quandaries here. If I lived in Somalia or Haiti I would probably have a different view.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> canada. A success. Wow.


I know right?! I mean, it doesn't hold a flame to such places as Hungary, which according to the Varieties of Democracy Institute is one of the most rapidly autocratising countries in the world, or China, who's zero-COVID policy has lead to protests across the country, and may be building 87,000 COVID isloation PODs in Guangzhou to force people into quarantine, or Russia, where one of the lowest vaccination uptake rates resulted in one of the highest number of COVID deaths in the world (and a rate that is 2.5x that of Canada's), or maybe we look at our friends down south US, where not only do both sides absolutely despise the parties and leaders of the other side, but the trust in the actual institution of elections is the worst of all liberal democracies.


----------



## Haggis (29 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> We are talking first world quandaries here. If I lived in Somalia or Haiti I would probably have a different view.


Which is why Roxham Road is such a popular destination for third world travellers.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (29 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> A bit of pedantic diversion, but Valley folk, like pretty much everybody else in Ontario, don't "pay extra"; they pay for police service.  Mike Harris drove funding of policing services down to the municipal level in the early '90s.  Any municipality is free to have their own service or pay somebody else - OPP or municipal - to do it for them.  Highway patrol, some other designated services such as aviation, as well as policing unorganized (no municipal government) are paid for by the province.



Renfrew Ontario and many communities in Ontario pay the OPP to provide policing services to their towns instead of having a police service. 2015 Renfrew paid  $1.9 Million for police services.
I could not find a more recent costing ( Billing period is 01 October of each year )


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Given that, in that entire hodgepodge, who represented the reasonable?  Which convoy protest leader should he have met with?


They didn't need to meet with "reasonable" leaders, they needed to be seen as making an attempt to listen to the concerns of the leaders. 

You take the wind out of the sails of unreasonable people by appearing to be more reasonable than them. Instead, as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the government played it for division and cheap politics, hoping the city/province would bear the brunt of the public backlash if anything went wrong. As it turns out, the city and province seemed to have taken a similar, though less hostile approach, which exposed the crass political games of the federal government.


----------



## Weinie (29 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> Which is why Roxham Road is such a popular destination for third world travellers.


And why wouldn't it be? Undefended/un-patrolled. I'm sure that human smugglers knew about that place well before we heard of it.


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> And why wouldn't it be? Undefended/un-patrolled. I'm sure that human smugglers knew about that place well before we heard of it.


A savvy businessman would open a gift shop full of Hudson Bay blankets, knock off mountie hats, and “this year for sure!” Leafs jerseys so they can blend in seamlessly.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> They didn't need to meet with "reasonable" leaders, they needed to be seen as making an attempt to listen to the concerns of the leaders.
> 
> You take the wind out of the sails of unreasonable people by appearing to be more reasonable than them. Instead, as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the government played it for division and cheap politics, hoping the city/province would bear the brunt of the public backlash if anything went wrong. As it turns out, the city and province seemed to have taken a similar, though less hostile approach, which exposed the crass political games of the federal government.


You got it backward:

"Instead, as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the government province  played it for division and cheap politics, hoping the city/province federal government would bear the brunt of the public backlash if anything went wrong. "


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> A savvy businessman would open a gift shop full of Hudson Bay blankets, knock off mountie hats, and “this year for sure!” Leafs jerseys so they can blend in seamlessly.


Don't forget to include pillows, or should those come free with entry?


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Don't forget to include pillows, or should those come free with entry?


Nah, those get mailed out after you file your first tax return, so most of them won’t need one.


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> You got it backward:
> 
> "Instead, as @Halifax Tar pointed out, the government province  played it for division and cheap politics, hoping the city/province federal government would bear the brunt of the public backlash if anything went wrong. "


I actually pointed out both sides did it, but the federal government is the party that poured gas onto the fire for political points, the city and province just ignored the problem hoping to make it stick to the feds.


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Nov 2022)

The government basically flipped off everyone involved from the start.  So much for the customary practice of at least trying to pretend to listen to grievances coming from groups who feel like they're not getting a fair shake.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The government basically flipped off everyone involved from the start.  So much for the customary practice of at least trying to pretend to listen to grievances coming from groups who feel like they're not getting a fair shake.


Facts don't care about your feelings. 

But the Convoy protestors don't care about facts, so, I guess we're at an impasse.


----------



## lenaitch (29 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Renfrew Ontario and many communities in Ontario pay the OPP to provide policing services to their towns instead of having a police service. 2015 Renfrew paid  $1.9 Million for police services.
> I could not find a more recent costing ( Billing period is 01 October of each year )


Exactly what I said - they pay for police services.  Not "many" communities - every community, so long as it is an organized municipality.  When Renfrew had its own service, it certainly wasn't free, so the OPP isn't "extra".  Most smaller municipalities have ditched their police service simply because they are too costly to operate.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (29 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Exactly what I said - they pay for police services.  Not "many" communities - every community, so long as it is an organized municipality.  When Renfrew had its own service, it certainly wasn't free, so the OPP isn't "extra".  Most smaller municipalities have ditched their police service simply because they are too costly to operate.


but when you are paying for the service and manpower and it is taken away because the Parent service needs man power in another location. Not fair


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Facts don't care about your feelings.
> 
> But the Convoy protestors don't care about facts, so, I guess we're at an impasse.


Trudeau didn't blackguard the protestors?


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Trudeau didn't blackguard the protestors?


Don't go trying to get people to admit that "their" side also has a portion of the blame for how this went down.


----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> but when you are paying for the service and manpower and it is taken away because the Parent service needs man power in another location. Not fair


Corollary is when a critical incident happens in your small community, resources can be easily flooded in.


----------



## Quirky (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> By just what metrics are you measuring/assessing countries? By just about every metric, CANADA is a huge success; a beacon of safety, security, fairness and prosperity in an increasingly turbulent world.


Ah yes, the old “at least we aren’t as bad X country” is a good way to let things slide home side. Increased crime, poverty, lack of housing, access to healthcare, quality of healthcare, increased drug related deaths, ballooned cost of living etc etc are all under the Trudeau gov. We should ignore all those issues because be glad we aren’t Haiti. Bite that pillow indeed.


----------



## Kirkhill (29 Nov 2022)

For thee and not for me....









						Trudeau backs right to protest in China as anti-government demonstrations sweep across country
					

It’s the prime minster’s first comments on China since Canada unveiled new Indo-Pacific strategy




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Retired AF Guy (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> That particular DAOD might be a bridge too far even for CANSOFCOM, but I've seen them and other L1s ignore a DAOD when it's inconvenient. So even without tinfoil, it's not hard to imagine an "enterprising" individual or two decided to us it as a training aid...


Same here. However, unless some thing pops up concerning the aircraft I'm just going give it a rest.


----------



## Quirky (29 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> For thee and not for me....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Something to be admired.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Don't go trying to get people to admit that "their" side also has a portion of the blame for how this went down.


Are you so blinded by bias that you can't tell, despite repeated reminders, that someone arguing "against" a position does not mean that that person supports the opposite position?


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Are you so blinded by bias that you can't tell, despite repeated reminders, the difference between someone is arguing "against" a position does not mean that that person supports the opposite position?


No, but your refusal to accept that the federal government made matters worse indicates to me that you're perhaps experiencing a bit of a blind spot.

I'm guessing a willful one, but it could really just be that you despise the people who were protesting so much you can't see past it.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Trudeau didn't blackguard the protestors?


Nope. Everything he said was measured and accurate. Inflammatory? Certainly, but the truth hurts.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> No, but your refusal to accept that the federal government made matters worse indicates to me that you're perhaps experiencing a bit of a blind spot.
> 
> I'm guessing a willful one, but it could really just be that you despise the people who were protesting so much you can't see past it.


I don't think I've ever actually offered an opinion on "whether or not the government did things that made matters worse" , but off the top of my head, they probably did make matters worse from t some of their actions, but 1. It couldn't really be avoided. When you're speaking truths to a bunch of people who refuse to see and accept objective truth it's going to piss them off, and 2. It wasn't, as some here have alluded, done with the express intent of creating the pretext for an EA enactment.


----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Ah yes, the old “at least we aren’t as bad X country” is a good way to let things slide home side. Increased crime, poverty, lack of housing, access to healthcare, quality of healthcare, increased drug related deaths, ballooned cost of living etc etc are all under the Trudeau gov. We should ignore all those issues because be glad we aren’t Haiti. Bite that pillow indeed.



You still haven’t answered my question. If you “can’t wait to get out of this shit bucket” (I think that was your wording), what are you actually still waiting for, and why are you here? Is this one of those things where you’ll rant online that the government is effectively sodomizing you, but you’re grudgingly happy to keep quietly showing up, contributing to the realization of their defence policy, and taking their pay check so that one day you can take their pension?

The world’s your oyster, my dude. I’m sure with your skillset and years of military experience, you’d be readily employable plying your trade in one of those other places if you actively want to leave Canada. Planes need fixing everywhere.

Except that I don’t actually think you _do_ want that. I think you just want to be _seen and heard_ to want that.


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> You still haven’t answered my question. If you “can’t wait to get out of this shit bucket” (I think that was your wording), what are you actually still waiting for, and why are you here? Is this one of those things where you’ll rant online that the government is effectively sodomizing you, but you’re grudgingly happy to keep quietly showing up, contributing to the realization of their defence policy, and taking their pay check so that one day you can take their pension?
> 
> The world’s your oyster, my dude. I’m sure with your skillset and years of military experience, you’d be readily employable plying your trade in one of those other places if you actively want to leave Canada. Planes need fixing everywhere.
> 
> Except that I don’t actually think you _do_ want that. I think you just want to be _seen and heard_ to want that.


Ideology doesn't keep the lights on...


----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ideology doesn't keep the lights on...


Once your teeth find the pillow you can turn them off anyway, no?


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Once your teeth find the pillow you can turn them off anyway, no?


Some people also feel the need to close their eyes tight while biting the pillow. No lights needed, so quit your whining, right?


----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Some people also feel the need to close their eyes tight while biting the pillow. No lights needed, so quit your whining, right?



Telling anyone to ‘quit whining’ in this thread would be an exercise in futility, so I won’t bother.


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Telling anyone to ‘quit whining’ in this thread would be an exercise in futility, so I won’t bother.


Ooooh, BURN! Good one. You mean a thread about .000001% of the population whining about some honking horns and mean people requiring the government to decide it's a national threat and declare war on it's own citizens? you're right, complete waste of time.


----------



## mariomike (29 Nov 2022)

In other news,









						All 'Freedom Convoy' truckers, donors could be drawn into class-action lawsuit over protest disruption
					

Lawyer leading class-action lawsuit over Ottawa protest wants to add all Freedom Convoy truckers and donors as defendants to multimillion-dollar litigation




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> In other news,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The country is already divided, why not go after Sally from Flin Flon because she donated $20 to the convoy...

It's unlikely to amount to anything, but the act itself just pours more gas on the fire.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> In other news,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean... Fukk around and find out, I guess.


----------



## Lumber (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> I mean... Fukk around and find out, I guess.


Actually, I take it back, a little. I do feel bad for probably a lot of the donors. I bet a lot of them had very little knowledge of the core tennants of the worst of the convoy protestors, and probably weren't aware either of the mayhem and pain they were causing downtown, and were likely donating to support what they thought was no more than a protest of government over reach.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> The country is already divided, why not go after Sally from Flin Flon because she donated $20 to the convoy...
> 
> It's unlikely to amount to anything, but the act itself just pours more gas on the fire.


Punitive and if it stands adds fuel to a smouldering fire.


----------



## mariomike (29 Nov 2022)

More than half of convoy donors who haven't received refunds are Americans​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/convoy-protest-donations-refunds-1.6654063


----------



## Quirky (29 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> taking their pay check so that one day you can take their pension?



Ding ding ding. At least I’m not an elected official who destroys a country while doing it behind a smug smile.


----------



## Remius (29 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Ooooh, BURN! Good one. You mean a thread about .000001% of the population whining about some honking horns and mean people requiring the government to decide it's a national threat and declare war on it's own citizens? you're right, complete waste of time.


Considering the whole convoy was about whining about having to wear a cloth mask or being afraid to get a shot or not then yeah….

Oh wait it was never really about all that was it…


----------



## childs56 (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> I mean... Fukk around and find out, I guess.


That will set a precedent for any and all protests and recovery of loss by the "victims". Sounds good. Hopefully they will back date it to The previous owners of the Trans Mountain Pipeline. The protest caused delays costing in the billions and still doing so.  Logging Industry in BC that gets regular protests will be able to sue. 
I love it when a plan comes together.


----------



## TacticalTea (29 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> core *tennants *of the worst of the convoy protestors


This is one of those dastardly situations where I can't correct someone's English because I don't know if they made one of the classic blunders or they're just being very creative...

@Remius Whaddya mean? What was it about, then?

I'm generally on the pro-vaccine side, I just don't think it had to be forced on people (given it didn't reduce infection rates at all), so to me the protest seemed completely valid, even though I staunchly opposed it because keeping innocents awake and using potential weapons of mass murder (trucks, as seen in France, US) for political purposes is unacceptable.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Nov 2022)




----------



## brihard (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Ding ding ding. At least I’m not an elected official who destroys a country while doing it behind a smug smile.


So you _can_ wait to leave this ‘shit bucket’ (Canada) behind. Glad we cleared that up.


----------



## Quirky (29 Nov 2022)

Semantics.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Nope. Everything he said was measured and accurate. Inflammatory? Certainly, but the truth hurts.


The descriptors he used were "racist", "misogynist", and "anti-vax".


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> You still haven’t answered my question. If you “can’t wait to get out of this shit bucket” (I think that was your wording), what are you actually still waiting for, and why are you here? Is this one of those things where you’ll rant online that the government is effectively sodomizing you, but you’re grudgingly happy to keep quietly showing up, contributing to the realization of their defence policy, and taking their pay check so that one day you can take their pension?
> 
> The world’s your oyster, my dude. *I’m sure with your skillset and years of military experience, you’d be readily employable plying your trade in one of those other places if you actively want to leave Canada. Planes need fixing everywhere.*
> 
> Except that I don’t actually think you _do_ want that. I think you just want to be _seen and heard_ to want that.


I generally agree with this sentiment and want more people to realize they can quit the CAF, stop suckling on the Government teet and be completely fine.  

Military and organizations like Police Forces 😉 condition people psychologically to think they can't do anything else.  It's all part of their plan to coerce people to stay.

They even put up massive administrative roadblocks to make it difficult for someone to leave and they make doing things like withdrawing your pension extremely burdensome.  It's all part of their coercion strategy.

I also think mass resignations are one of the best ways to effect changes on a public institution.  If an institution is faltering, it needs to be smashed in to dust, not strung along on life support.

Look at the CAF right now, it's borderline combat ineffective but I don't think it's bled enough yet.  I think it needs a catastrophic failure and needs to be seen as a continued massive source of embarrassment for the Government for real change to occur.  I could say the same thing about a number of our other garbage public institutions as well 😄

So yes, please continue to encourage others to quit.  I do it myself and have provided similar advice to a number of people.  I don't think that was your intent and think you were merely trying to gaslight @Quirky  but I think it was great advice.

It's certainly easier to say "Quit if you don't like it" than actually listening to people's grievances 😎


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Look at the CAF right now, it's borderline combat ineffective but I don't think it's bled enough yet. I think it needs a catastrophic failure and needs to be seen as a continued massive source of embarrassment for the Government for real change to occur. *I could say the same thing about a number of our other garbage public institutions as well *😄


You mean like the current executive arm of Government? 😉


----------



## Quirky (30 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I generally agree with this sentiment and want more people to realize they can quit the CAF, stop suckling on the Government teet and be completely fine.



Getting a gov salary is hardly suckling on the teet, that’s reserved for your endless social assistance receivers. I’m under 5 years to pension and I don’t hate my job and location enough to throw it away in the short term, I’m not giving the feds that satisfaction. Long term, bye bye.


----------



## Lumber (30 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> This is one of those dastardly situations where I can't correct someone's English because I don't know if they made one of the classic blunders or they're just being very creative...


It was neither. I meant tenets but spelled out tenants. I find I do that a lot lately (spell out a word that sounds like but is not the word I mean) and am constantly finding such errors in my emails...


----------



## Lumber (30 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The descriptors he used were "racist", "misogynist", and "anti-vax".


Yes. And? 

Also, those three terms were specifically used in relation to a completely separate protest, not the Convoy protest, and in THAT protest, he did not call protestors "misogynists", he said they lashed out with "misogynistic attacks". Huzzah for media spin.

What he did do in a completely separate interview was call the fiercest anti-vaxxers to be racist and misogynist. Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.


----------



## brihard (30 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I generally agree with this sentiment and want more people to realize they can quit the CAF, stop suckling on the Government teet and be completely fine.
> 
> Military and organizations like Police Forces 😉 condition people psychologically to think they can't do anything else.  It's all part of their plan to coerce people to stay.
> 
> ...


Gaslight him? Not at all. Gaslighting is trying to convince someone of a falsehood, subtly and over the long term, and against their own perceptions. Just calling out what appears to me to be the hypocrisy of shitting on the country (not just the government) while in its service and drawing its paycheck. He _is_ gainfully employable in lots of different places. The ‘you can work elsewhere’ part of my reply was utterly earnest.

Someone who simply doesn’t like their job, I wouldn’t reply as I did. Not my business. Lots of people embrace the stick and stick it out for good reason. I simply wasn’t going to walk past and ignore someone characterizing our entire country the way he did, announcing that he ‘can’t wait’ to leave, knowing that in truth he still serves it.

Sticking it out for the pension is an entirely _rational_ choice. It’s just not aligned with his own declaration, and I felt like pointing that out.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (30 Nov 2022)

The protest in Ottawa and how it was handled.  Compared to other countries

Iran , protests over women's dress and clothing rules.  Some where between 234 and 510 people have killed depending on what news service is quoting numbers,  14000 people detained, arrested,  21 facing death sentences. 

China,  a Covid protest, reporter arrested and beaten for his coverage,  unknown arrest numbers,  50 plus at one protest detained, then forced to delete social media information, cell phones checked for illegal apps on them

Belgium soccer riot/protest 500 people involved and reacted with riot police and water cannons

USA protests of police shootings, BLM,  police officers shot,  police officers attacked in their patrol cars.  Protesters peppered sprayed, wooden bullets used, paint ball pepper rounds, horses trampled people,  officers hit with flag poles, you name it happened. Protesters looking at 1 month to 20 years in jail depending on the protest.

Canada,  some pepper spray, CS type gas, mass arrests, some jail time, horse stepped on some one. Notices handed out asking the protesters to leave.  Canadian Protesters have it easy and life goes on.  

EA used to just speed the end up.  At least there is an investigation at the end and maybe some sound reasoning and rules for the next time will come out


----------



## QV (30 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.



Anti-vaxers or vaccine hesitant people are predominantly liberal and female.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Yes. And?
> 
> Also, those three terms were specifically used in relation to a completely separate protest, not the Convoy protest, and in THAT protest, he did not call protestors "misogynists", he said they lashed out with "misogynistic attacks". Huzzah for media spin.
> 
> What he did do in a completely separate interview was call the fiercest anti-vaxxers to be racist and misogynist. Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.


"Always".  That's improbable.  Now you're just dipping into class warfare talking points.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "Always".  That's improbable.  Now you're just dipping into class warfare talking points.


well in Canada it would have to be wouldnt it? Since until recently we were all white


----------



## Remius (30 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> Anti-vaxers or vaccine hesitant people are predominantly liberal and female.


If you are basing it off the data gathered by the relevant poll then fixed for you. 

There is a significant difference between vax hesitant and anti vax.


----------



## IKnowNothing (30 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> If you are basing it off the data gathered by the relevant poll then fixed for you.
> 
> There is a significant difference between vax hesitant and anti vax.


There's also a significant difference between the profiles of the typical hardline anti-vaxxer pre and post covid. 

Crudely put
Pre- left wing yuppy women that believe in the healing power of crystals and prefer to treat preventable diseases with sage grass
Post- right wing MAGA type that believe in 5G turning the frogs gay and prefer to treat preventable diseases with colloidal silver and horse paste

Proof that the political spectrum is a circle, and there are ready marks for snake oil salesmen in every party


----------



## QV (30 Nov 2022)

Either pure believers or filthy non-believers then, hey? Why do you even tolerate these people?


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> Yes. And?
> 
> Also, those three terms were specifically used in relation to a completely separate protest, not the Convoy protest, and in THAT protest, he did not call protestors "misogynists", he said they lashed out with "misogynistic attacks". Huzzah for media spin.
> 
> What he did do in a completely separate interview was call the fiercest anti-vaxxers to be racist and misogynist. Vaccine resistance movements have always been led by white, middle-class voices and promoted by structures of racial inequality.



You're right he did use that specific quote to describe a seperate protest (where he was targeted specifically).

He also said the protestors with the convoy were mostly racists, mysoginists, and something else. You can find references towards the beginning of this thread.


----------



## childs56 (30 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> The protest in Ottawa and how it was handled.  Compared to other countries
> 
> Iran , protests over women's dress and clothing rules.  Some where between 234 and 510 people have killed depending on what news service is quoting numbers,  14000 people detained, arrested,  21 facing death sentences.
> 
> ...


Sorry but comparing the peaceful protest in Ottawa to those elsewhere in the world is simply ignorant. Levels of response is parallel to the level from the protesters. One of the key issues when dealing with protests across Canada and was one of the reasons the Ottawa Police did not want to escalate their use of force. Minimum use of force to achieve their objectives. 

People here were not throwing rocks and cocktail bombs, nor were they beating people up shooting guns off.


----------



## childs56 (30 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> using potential weapons of mass murder (trucks, as seen in France, US) for political purposes is unacceptable.


Are you kidding or serious?  I bet those heavy fuel oil trucks waiting to explode is part of the line also.....
To me what the government has said is every semi truck is a heavy fuel oil bomb waiting to explode. 

Those trucks cost in the neighbor hood of $200,000 to replace. That picker truck around $750,000-1,000,000 to replace. I doubt very much peaceful protesters were going to use their trucks as weapons, as described by the government.  Also stated by the government were the weapons found in the trucks. Which the Police stated was untrue. Who does one believe? 

A solution to heavy fuel oil trucks waiting to explode driving around Ottawa providing service to the area is to stop using "bomb trucks" for deliveries. If I was a truck driver I would be pretty pissed off at the government for saying my truck is a bomb waiting to explode.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You're right he did use that specific quote to describe a seperate protest (where he was targeted specifically).
> 
> He also said the protestors with the convoy were mostly racists, mysoginists, and something else. You can find references towards the beginning of this thread.



Canadians? Did he mention 'Canadians' at all?


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Dec 2022)

childs56 said:


> Sorry but comparing the peaceful protest in Ottawa to those elsewhere in the world is simply ignorant. Levels of response is parallel to the level from the protesters. One of the key issues when dealing with protests across Canada and was one of the reasons the Ottawa Police did not want to escalate their use of force. Minimum use of force to achieve their objectives.
> 
> People here were not throwing rocks and cocktail bombs, nor were they beating people up shooting guns off.


There is a difference between 'minimal use of force' and what the OPS was doing.

Doing SFA and hoping it turns out for the best wasn't achieving any objective. Just enforcing existing bylaws would have been a start, and would have shut down the noise issue from honking right away.

For context, the same OPS issued a ticket to a local company a few years ago for exceeding the noise bylaw because they kept the stereo going on their float in a parking lot immediately following the Christmas parade (so around 2030ish at night, in an area about 300m or more from the closest house). They could have made a mint wandering around ticketing people.


----------



## QV (1 Dec 2022)

Still not a public order emergency national in scope.


----------



## RangerRay (1 Dec 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> There is a difference between 'minimal use of force' and what the OPS was doing.
> 
> Doing SFA and hoping it turns out for the best wasn't achieving any objective. Just enforcing existing bylaws would have been a start, and would have shut down the noise issue from honking right away.
> 
> For context, the same OPS issued a ticket to a local company a few years ago for exceeding the noise bylaw because they kept the stereo going on their float in a parking lot immediately following the Christmas parade (so around 2030ish at night, in an area about 300m or more from the closest house). They could have made a mint wandering around ticketing people.


I am guessing with the number of people there expressing FOTL/sovereign citizen pseudo-legal BS and if the police went in to aggressively ticket everyone for municipal and provincial offences, not an insignificant number of people would have to be arrested to get ID, prevent continuation of the offence, preserve evidence, ensure appearance in court, etc.  Once police start making those arrests for “minor” offences, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the police to expect the crowd to get cranky.  I am guessing that the OPS probably didn’t want to start aggressively ticketing the protesters unless they had a backup plan (and officers) for if the crowd got cranky. I am guessing that there were no plan and no resources for said plan. 

I agree, probably something they should have pursued at the start, but it probably wouldn’t have been a simple process of just handing out tickets. 

It also doesn’t help that in recent years, police have been taking taking a hands-off approach to protest disturbances probably for fear of escalating violence. Protesters have learned they can get away with more crap than they used to.


----------



## brihard (1 Dec 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I am guessing with the number of people there expressing FOTL/sovereign citizen pseudo-legal BS and if the police went in to aggressively ticket everyone for municipal and provincial offences, not an insignificant number of people would have to be arrested to get ID, prevent continuation of the offence, preserve evidence, ensure appearance in court, etc.  Once police start making those arrests for “minor” offences, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the police to expect the crowd to get cranky.  I am guessing that the OPS probably didn’t want to start aggressively ticketing the protesters unless they had a backup plan (and officers) for if the crowd got cranky. I am guessing that there were no plan and no resources for said plan.
> 
> I agree, probably something they should have pursued at the start, but it probably wouldn’t have been a simple process of just handing out tickets.
> 
> It also doesn’t help that in recent years, police have been taking taking a hands-off approach to protest disturbances probably for fear of escalating violence. Protesters have learned they can get away with more crap than they used to.


There were a number of cases of exactly this- minor and necessary police/law enforcement actions that immediately attracted a number of angry occupiers. It became clear quickly that any active enforcement measures would necessitate being ready to handle a sudden and upset crowd. Some of the occupiers were actively communicating such police actions broadly, and asking for ‘backup’ from more of their crowd.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (1 Dec 2022)

childs56 said:


> Sorry but comparing the peaceful protest in Ottawa to those elsewhere in the world is simply ignorant. Levels of response is parallel to the level from the protesters. One of the key issues when dealing with protests across Canada and was one of the reasons the Ottawa Police did not want to escalate their use of force. Minimum use of force to achieve their objectives.
> 
> People here were not throwing rocks and cocktail bombs, nor were they beating people up shooting guns off.



I actually was hoping would read that and realize i thought it was well handled and cooler heads prevailed. 

I was caught in a riot in Toronto in the 1990s  (Rodney King Protest) , CS gas was used, horse mounted police with long canes,  rocks were tossed thru windows, stores looted, etc.  Still no one was killed or badly hurt ( police horse was hit in the eye, now they have plastic armour protecting the horses)  Subway train smelled really bad as people left the down town core because we all smelled of CS gas. Canadian protests have been peaceful and mostly ended peaceful. You look how other countries handle a protest,  we do it totally different and I hope it continues to be handled in a more peaceful way.   


Now the protest out West was different because large equipment was used to run around the police lines, weapons were seized according to reports,  but still no one was killed.  The world could take lessons on how we do it.


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> There were a number of cases of exactly this- minor and necessary police/law enforcement actions that immediately attracted a number of angry occupiers. It became clear quickly that any active enforcement measures would necessitate being ready to handle a sudden and upset crowd. Some of the occupiers were actively communicating such police actions broadly, and asking for ‘backup’ from more of their crowd.


That makes sense, but probably should have been an early indication to the BGHs that the sit back and wait plan wasn't going to work, so letting it fester for the next 3-4 weeks only made the potential for things to go sideways worse.

Nothing against the OPS itself, but the combination of the previous leadership and the useless mayor and some city council members seemed to result in indecision and essentially being reactive as a result. The weird jurisdiction and some other complicating factors must have made it worse, but that's what the BGHs get the big bucks for.


----------



## mariomike (1 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I was caught in a riot in Toronto in the 1990s  (Rodney King Protest) , CS gas was used, horse mounted police with long canes,  rocks were tossed thru windows, stores looted, etc.  Still no one was killed or badly hurt ( police horse was hit in the eye, now they have plastic armour protecting the horses)  Subway train smelled really bad as people left the down town core because we all smelled of CS gas.



They say that's the day the town lost its virginity. Lost its innocence.

I'm not convinced it ever was innocent. I think we popped our cherry on the boat over and looked back with no regrets.

It was certainly the worst riot I ever saw with my own eyes. Apparently, the last major one had been in 1933.

The G20 was the worst, I suppose. But, I was retired by then, and watched it on my living room TV.

​


----------



## dapaterson (1 Dec 2022)

The citizen mobilization to block convoy movement near Billings Bridge may well have been the trigger for the long delayed police awakening from their slumber; the risk of citizens taking matters into their own hands likely played a major role in forcing the clearing action.


----------



## Furniture (1 Dec 2022)

dapaterson said:


> The citizen mobilization to block convoy movement near Billings Bridge may well have been the trigger for the long delayed police awakening from their slumber; the risk of citizens taking matters into their own hands likely played a major role in forcing the clearing action.


That is a very fair point, the extreme element on the opposite side was starting to show signs of mobilization which could have led to problems.


----------



## mariomike (1 Dec 2022)

dapaterson said:


> The citizen mobilization to block convoy movement near Billings Bridge  the risk of citizens taking matters into their own hands likely played a major role in forcing the clearing action.



Control the streets.

"Whose streets?"

"Our streets!"


----------



## brihard (1 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> That is a very fair point, the extreme element on the opposite side was starting to show signs of mobilization which could have led to problems.


I would not characterize the people at Billings Bridge as in any way ‘extreme’. They were rightfully pissed off by inaction, and lawfully counter-protested in a way that stymied the efforts of some of the convoy occupiers.

I have yet to see anything that suggests there was an imminent risk of any significant retaliatory violence, although I’m a little surprised there wasn’t already significant vandalism taking place against trucks and such.

I think that by the end of the weekend of the 12th-13th, it was clear that Sloly was done and that things were starting to move towards action. Had there been stagnation and inaction by police through what ended up being the final weekend, then I would have been concerned about active retaliation and ‘fighting back’, galvanized by the spirit of the Billings Bridge counter protest. There was definitely an increasingly pissed off part of the population who (understandably) felt abandoned by police.


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> That is a very fair point, the *extreme element *on the opposite side was starting to show signs of mobilization which could have led to problems.


You mean local residents who were tired of their streets being occupied, people shitting on their lawns and general shenanigans?

Balcony Ricky was about as everyman as you can get for locals; people were just tired of their streets being blocked and the general lack of respect for their general and legitimate concerns on how it was affecting their daily lives.


----------



## mariomike (1 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> I would not characterize the people at Billings Bridge as in any way ‘extreme’.


Anyone thinks those people were "extreme" should try pulling their sh#t on certain streets in Toronto.


----------



## Furniture (1 Dec 2022)

Ah... so when one group takes to the streets to interrupt Canadians, they are "extreme", "fringe", or "radical", but when another group does the same thing, they are just "concerned citizens" who are fed up with disruptions to their lives...


----------



## Remius (1 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ah... so when one group takes to the streets to_* interrupt Canadians,*_ they are "extreme", "fringe", or "radical", but when another group does the same thing, they are just "concerned citizens" who are fed up with disruptions to their lives...


Yes.  Thank you for pointing out exactly what they ended up accomplishing.  I hope the civil suit brings everyone the compensation they deserve.


----------



## Quirky (1 Dec 2022)

Compensation for hurt feelings and ‘mental distress’ from loud noises. This is Canada so I’m not surprised anymore.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (1 Dec 2022)

always on the back burner. 








						Military was told to prepare to intervene in 'Freedom Convoy' protests: official
					

The Defence Department's top official says he directed the military to prepare to intervene in the "Freedom Convoy" protests earlier this year, but the resulting plans were never seriously considered -- in part due to concerns about another Oka Crisis.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




want to know how the HLVW wreckers would ruin the streets? am i missing something?


----------



## Remius (1 Dec 2022)

Quirky said:


> Compensation for hurt feelings and ‘mental distress’ from loud noises. This is Canada so I’m not surprised anymore.


Like hurt feeling and mental distress from wearing a mask?  I know eh?


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Dec 2022)

Good Lord can y'all be so far apart on this? There is a middle ground somewhere.


----------



## Remius (1 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Good Lord can y'all be so far apart on this? There is a middle ground somewhere.


Of course, yes you are right.  I think most here agree that the EA was not required.  I think that’s our middle ground.  

The rest is a bit far apart though.


----------



## suffolkowner (1 Dec 2022)

Its an interesting discussion but I guarantee one thing if someone was honking their horn outside my house for one night every single person in Canada would know who I was. I'm surprised there wasnt an escalation. I would have been bringing all those truckers some nice special fuel to help them out


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> Anyone thinks those people were "extreme" should try pulling their sh#t on certain streets in Toronto.


What do you think would happen?


----------



## mariomike (1 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> What do you think would happen?


FAFO


----------



## Quirky (1 Dec 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Its an interesting discussion but I guarantee one thing if someone was honking their horn outside my house for one night every single person in Canada would know who I was. I'm surprised there wasnt an escalation. I would have been bringing all those truckers some nice special fuel to help them out



With our revolving door justice system, taking matters into your own hands has become more attractive to resolve issues quicker.

The downtown Ottawa residence don’t seem like the confrontational types and likely sought a safe space.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> FAFO


Sound about right.


----------



## suffolkowner (1 Dec 2022)

Quirky said:


> With our revolving door justice system, taking matters into your own hands has become more attractive to resolve issues quicker.
> 
> The downtown Ottawa residence don’t seem like the confrontational types and likely sought a safe space.


Probably I mean most people avoid confrontation for and for good reason and its a real danger when the police, courts and politicians dont do there jobs. I know I am getting tired of reading every day about criminals who should never see the light of day being released. The Ottawa protest didnt bother me too much because I dont live there so it was and is easy to be a little nonchalant about it


----------



## brihard (1 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ah... so when one group takes to the streets to interrupt Canadians, they are "extreme", "fringe", or "radical", but when another group does the same thing, they are just "concerned citizens" who are fed up with disruptions to their lives...


Depending on how it’s done, to what extent, for how long, and their behaviours towards individual people and not just property- yes, that can be exactly true. If you cannot conceive of there being a spectrum between a lawful protest, and an unlawful assembly, that’s on you. I can assure you that there’s a major difference between a couple hundred people marching around blocking intersections for a few hours and then going home, and; a few thousand people with hundreds of vehicles occupying a downtown core, logjamming it with parked vehicles, and laying on truck horns 24/7, preventing thousands of local residents from being able to peacefully use, enjoy, or even sleep in their own property for weeks. Please tell us how you personally would adapt to a dozen trucks idling outside your house randomly hitting their air horns at all hours for a week or two. I suspect you would quickly stop thinking of it as an acceptable or lawful form of protest.


----------



## suffolkowner (1 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Good Lord can y'all be so far apart on this? There is a middle ground somewhere.


I think King Solomon answered that middle ground question a long time ago


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Dec 2022)

Quirky said:


> With our revolving door justice system, taking matters into your own hands has become more attractive to resolve issues quicker.
> 
> The _downtown Ottawa residence don’t seem like the confrontational types_ and likely sought a safe space.



The downtown Ottawa residents include four largei_sh_ groups (I'm using the condo in which I live - two blocks from one of the main protest "parking lots" - as an example for the first three groups - the fourth group lives across the street from us:

Seniors who have downsized and live in the many, many downtown condos;
Affluent students who live in the same buildings;
Young civil servants, single and childless, dual-income couples, who also live in those downtown condos; and
Newer Canadians and those who for a variety in reason live in rent-geared-to-income public housing.
There are others, of course, but the downtown core, where the protests occurred is fairly compact. Just a few blocks away, but safely removed from the "bother" of the "occupation," there are some quite affluent neighbourhoods filled with single family homes.

My little maps shows the main "occupied area." You could walk in almost any other area and hardly know there were protesters except for the noise.

Were those downtown Ottawa residents ever in any danger from violent protesters? Never, as far as I could see and I walked the area almost daily.

Were those downtown Ottawa residents inconvenienced? Yes, and that's putting it mildly.

Were those downtown Ottawa residents terrified? Yes. Some were, especially in the first few days. On the first Sunday of the "occupation" some of the truckers decide that the folks who attend Mass at St Patrick's basilica should not be allowed to hear the Mass - they sounded their horns steadily. A few parishioners - not surprisingly almost all seniors and recent immigrants - and a priest came out to ask for some consideration. They got "the finger" and louder horns. Ottawa Police stood by, seemingly helplessly. 

Were the downtown Ottawa residents well served by the Ottawa Police and the mayor and city council? No. All were miserable failures.

Was their _Emergency Act_ required? No! (Not, _in my opinion_, as a downtown resident.)

All that was ever needed was the *political will* to ask the premier for a declaration of a state of emergency - which was, eventually, done - and then to tell the police to get reinforcements and move the "occupiers" out of the city centre and close down their support base. Why that political will was lacking for so long is one of the questions I fear the commission will not answer.


----------



## Quirky (1 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Please tell us how you personally would adapt to a dozen trucks idling outside your house randomly hitting their air horns at all hours for a week or two.



A can of great stuff into the engine intakes? Not like police were enforcing any laws anyway.


----------



## Furniture (1 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Depending on how it’s done, to what extent, for how long, and their behaviours towards individual people and not just property- yes, that can be exactly true. If you cannot conceive of there being a spectrum between a lawful protest, and an unlawful assembly, that’s on you. I can assure you that there’s a major difference between a couple hundred people marching around blocking intersections for a few hours and then going home, and; a few thousand people with hundreds of vehicles occupying a downtown core, logjamming it with parked vehicles, and laying on truck horns 24/7, preventing thousands of local residents from being able to peacefully use, enjoy, or even sleep in their own property for weeks. Please tell us how you personally would adapt to a dozen trucks idling outside your house randomly hitting their air horns at all hours for a week or two. I suspect you would quickly stop thinking of it as an acceptable or lawful form of protest.


My bad for being the first and only person on Army.ca to use hyperbole to make a point.

The people who blockaded the downtown were the extreme of the group of Canadians tired of having varying level of government interrupt their lives. The people on Riverside Dr. were the extreme of the people tired of the blockade. Both groups consisted of the extreme elements of their particular causes.

Some posters on this site seemed upset at my use of the label "extreme", but have no issues labelling those who have different opinions.


----------



## Kat Stevens (1 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> My bad for being the first and only person on Army.ca to use hyperbole to make a point.
> 
> The people who blockaded the downtown were the extreme of the group of Canadians tired of having varying level of government interrupt their lives. The people on Riverside Dr. were the extreme of the people tired of the blockade. Both groups consisted of the extreme elements of their particular causse.
> 
> Some posters on this site seemed upset at my use of the label "extreme", but have no issues labelling those who have different opinions.


The word "moron" is quite popular here, too.


----------



## brihard (1 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> My bad for being the first and only person on Army.ca to use hyperbole to make a point.
> 
> The people who blockaded the downtown were the extreme of the group of Canadians tired of having varying level of government interrupt their lives. The people on Riverside Dr. were the extreme of the people tired of the blockade. Both groups consisted of the extreme elements of their particular causes.
> 
> Some posters on this site seemed upset at my use of the label "extreme", but have no issues labelling those who have different opinions.


Why ‘upset?’ I’m seeing some ‘I disagree and here’s why’, but nobody who’s correcting your choice of wording seems to be upset about it.


----------



## QV (1 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> The downtown Ottawa residents include four largei_sh_ groups (I'm using the condo in which I live - two blocks from one of the main protest "parking lots" - as an example for the first three groups - the fourth group lives across the street from us:
> 
> Seniors who have downsized and live in the many, many downtown condos;
> Affluent students who live in the same buildings;
> ...


Thank you for the first hand account of it all.


----------



## childs56 (2 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I actually was hoping would read that and realize i thought it was well handled and cooler heads prevailed.
> 
> I was caught in a riot in Toronto in the 1990s  (Rodney King Protest) , CS gas was used, horse mounted police with long canes,  rocks were tossed thru windows, stores looted, etc.  Still no one was killed or badly hurt ( police horse was hit in the eye, now they have plastic armour protecting the horses)  Subway train smelled really bad as people left the down town core because we all smelled of CS gas. Canadian protests have been peaceful and mostly ended peaceful. You look how other countries handle a protest,  we do it totally different and I hope it continues to be handled in a more peaceful way.
> 
> ...


The weapons at Couts border crossing were not actually seized at the protest but at a trailer on private property close to town. The people with them are a interesting group who were not supported for their views by those at the protest.  

That would have sucked to be caught in the riot.


----------



## childs56 (2 Dec 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> There is a difference between 'minimal use of force' and what the OPS was doing.
> 
> Doing SFA and hoping it turns out for the best wasn't achieving any objective. Just enforcing existing bylaws would have been a start, and would have shut down the noise issue from honking right away.
> 
> For context, the same OPS issued a ticket to a local company a few years ago for exceeding the noise bylaw because they kept the stereo going on their float in a parking lot immediately following the Christmas parade (so around 2030ish at night, in an area about 300m or more from the closest house). They could have made a mint wandering around ticketing people.


Due to the dealings at the BLM protests earlier the Ottawa Police changed they way they escalate their use of force.  The findings said that they instigated the violence and  said as long as criminal matters were not happening to let the protest die out on its own. I am sure that is why the Police did not engage directly with the protests. Now everyone in their dog has their own opinion as to how the Police should have quelled the racists, extreme terrorists. Simple fact is the protest overall was peaceful.


----------



## Remius (7 Dec 2022)

On the civil suit front…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600546195696500736


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## mariomike (7 Dec 2022)

Learned a new word today.

impecuniosity


----------



## brihard (7 Dec 2022)

childs56 said:


> Due to the dealings at the BLM protests earlier the Ottawa Police changed they way they escalate their use of force.  The findings said that they instigated the violence and  said as long as criminal matters were not happening to let the protest die out on its own. I am sure that is why the Police did not engage directly with the protests. Now everyone in their dog has their own opinion as to how the Police should have quelled the racists, extreme terrorists. Simple fact is the protest overall was peaceful.


What escalation at the Ottawa BLM protests? I’m really unclear what it is you contend Ottawa started doing differently.

The biggest BLM protest in Ottawa (the one Trudeau actually briefly marched in up on Parliament Hill) was a little loud, but entirely peacefully save for a couple water bottles thrown at police by some idiot. That’s out of a crowd of thousands. There was definitely no escalation by police at that event.

So I’m really confused about what exactly you’re talking about.


----------



## lenaitch (7 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> Learned a new word today.
> 
> impecuniosity


You need to read more Rex Murphy or Conrad Black articles.


----------



## childs56 (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> What escalation at the Ottawa BLM protests? I’m really unclear what it is you contend Ottawa started doing differently.
> 
> The biggest BLM protest in Ottawa (the one Trudeau actually briefly marched in up on Parliament Hill) was a little loud, but entirely peacefully save for a couple water bottles thrown at police by some idiot. That’s out of a crowd of thousands. There was definitely no escalation by police at that event.
> 
> So I’m really confused about what exactly you’re talking about.


The one where they moved in and arrested the Protesters at night, causing some hurt feelings and which resulted in meetings cancelled the next morning between the Police Board and the BLM protest leaders. A review of their arrests along with other protests in Ontario UOF was reviewed and came to conclusion that Police were to change their tactics and not escalate their tactics and to avoid confrontations if possible during peaceful protests.


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> There were a number of cases of exactly this- minor and necessary police/law enforcement actions that immediately attracted a number of angry *occupiers.* It became clear quickly that any active enforcement measures would necessitate being ready to handle a sudden and upset crowd. Some of the *occupiers*_ were actively communicating such police actions broadly, and asking for ‘backup’ from more of their crowd._


That's an interesting segue in your description of the protesters.

occupiers meaning - Google Search


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> That's an interesting segue in your description of the protesters.
> 
> occupiers meaning - Google Search


Yes, I’ve used the term for some time, including in this thread. They basically occupied downtown and prevented its lawful use and enjoyment, really no different conceptually from the movement that literally used the ‘occupy’ moniker some years back. They also succesfully prevented effective law enforcement for a couple weeks. The difference is the convoy crowd were far more successful in jamming everything up.



childs56 said:


> The one where they moved in and arrested the Protesters at night, causing some hurt feelings and which resulted in meetings cancelled the next morning between the Police Board and the BLM protest leaders. A review of their arrests along with other protests in Ontario UOF was reviewed and came to conclusion that Police were to change their tactics and not escalate their tactics and to avoid confrontations if possible during peaceful protests.



Ah yes. The small crew who locked down Nicholas and Laurier for a few hours. They got cleared out, and nobody was hurt save for some feelings. That had nothing to do with the convoy response, or initial lack thereof. The convoy were committing criminal offences en masse from day one when they blocked numerous roads and prevented the use and enjoyment of downtown roads and properties. While enforcement took a few weeks, it was criminal right from the start, and that’s what a bunch of people were ultimately arrested and charged for.


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Yes, I’ve used the term for some time, including in this thread. They basically occupied downtown and prevented its lawful use and enjoyment, really no different conceptually from the movement that literally used the ‘occupy’ moniker some years back. They also succesfully prevented effective law enforcement for a couple weeks. The difference is the convoy crowd were far more successful in jamming everything up.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes. The small crew who locked down Nicholas and Laurier for a few hours. They got cleared out, and nobody was hurt save for some feelings. That had nothing to do with the convoy response, or initial lack thereof. The convoy were committing criminal offences en masse from day one when they blocked numerous roads and prevented the use and enjoyment of downtown roads and properties. While enforcement took a few weeks, it was criminal right from the start, and that’s what a bunch of people were ultimately arrested and charged for.


All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

You've yet to move into the racists and misogynists trope.


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> You've yet to move into the racists and misogynists trope.



Correct. Why would I?


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Correct. Why would I?


Perhaps your righteous indignation towards the issue is based on a personal bias. I have no other conclusion to come to. But, I lived in Ottawa during the Trucker Convoy. I support the rights of "protesters" (not so-called occupiers) to protest anything they want in Canada, even though I strongly disagree with many of their crusades.

That is democracy, not freezing bank accounts and enacting a totally over the top EA.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> Perhaps your righteous indignation towards the issue is based on a personal bias. I have no other conclusion to come to. But, I lived in Ottawa during the Trucker Convoy. I support the rights of "protesters" (not so-called occupiers) to protest anything they want in Canada, even though I strongly disagree with many of their crusades.
> 
> That is democracy, not freezing bank accounts and enacting a totally over the top EA.



Personal biases aside....

Given the blatant inability of the police to adequately guarantee the rights and freedoms of everyone in a safe and sensible manner, we may want to recognize that they might just be 'out of their depth' in their current construct, given the increasing levels of protester organization and militancy in Canada, and conduct a 'root and branch' revision of police services to reflect that new higher risk, and multi-faceted, security requirement.

I'm no Trudeau fan, but when the PM says the police plan was 'no plan at all' that's a huge failing that needs to be addressed with various levels of house cleaning, reorganizing and training because this particular type of 'public disorder Genie' isn't going back in the bottle anytime soon.


----------



## QV (8 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Personal biases aside....
> 
> Given the blatant inability of the police to adequately guarantee the rights and freedoms of everyone in a safe and sensible manner, we may want to recognize that they might just be 'out of their depth' in their current construct, given the increasing levels of protester organization and militancy in Canada, and conduct a 'root and branch' revision of police services to reflect that new higher risk, and multi-faceted, security requirement.
> 
> I'm no Trudeau fan, but when the PM says the police plan was 'no plan at all' that's a huge failing that needs to be addressed with various levels of house cleaning, reorganizing and training because this particular type of 'public disorder Genie' isn't going back in the bottle anytime soon.


You assertion would be accurate if the characterization of the convoy by select PMO/minister level of government was true, but it wasn't.


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> Perhaps your righteous indignation towards the issue is based on a personal bias. I have no other conclusion to come to. But, I lived in Ottawa during the Trucker Convoy. I support the rights of "protesters" (not so-called occupiers) to protest anything they want in Canada, even though I strongly disagree with many of their crusades.
> 
> That is democracy, not freezing bank accounts and enacting a totally over the top EA.


Then perhaps you’re making unsupported assumptions about what my views are grounded on. If you’re leaping to assuming that I’m building on some ‘racist/mysoginistic’ narrative, I respectfully suggest you have your own biases to check. 

I’m only speaking to what I observed on the ground in the role I played. I’m not in a position to speak to what was happening behind the scenes on the financials front. I’ll be interested to learn more about that once the commission’s report is out. Likewise, I’ve also said many times now that I am not yet convinced about the necessity of the EA, save for noting that for me personally it granted me no new powers that I lacked or that were necessary to lawfully clear people out of downtown and arrest those who tried to be difficult about it.

It might surprise you, but I - and others - are capable of having informed and nuanced opinions based on _some_ portions of an event of this scale, while being comfortable saying that there are _other _aspects that we aren’t very informed on, or in a position to speak to. I’m very comfortable opining on the blatant illegality of certain _behaviours_ and _actions_ in downtown Ottawa that went well beyond what courts recognize as lawful protest. It’s well established in prior case law that the right to protest is a right enjoyed by humans; not vehicles. There are already convictions happening for people arrested in the clearing of downtown Ottawa on Feb 18-19. There are many more to come.

If you want to hold a personal opinion that what the convoy protesters did in downtown Ottawa was substantially legal, that’s of course an opinion you get to have. It’s just not one grounded in reality in Canadian criminal law.


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Then perhaps you’re making unsupported assumptions about what my views are grounded on. If you’re leaping to assuming that I’m building on some ‘racist/mysoginistic’ narrative, I respectfully suggest you have your own biases to check.
> 
> I’m only speaking to what I observed on the ground in the role I played. I’m not in a position to speak to what was happening behind the scenes on the financials front. I’ll be interested to learn more about that once the commission’s report is out. Likewise, I’ve also said many times now that I am not yet convinced about the necessity of the EA, save for noting that for me personally it granted me no new powers that I lacked or that were necessary to lawfully clear people out of downtown and arrest those who tried to be difficult about it.
> 
> ...


Meh.


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Personal biases aside....
> 
> Given the blatant inability of the police to adequately guarantee the rights and freedoms of everyone in a safe and sensible manner, we may want to recognize that they might just be 'out of their depth' in their current construct, given the increasing levels of protester organization and militancy in Canada, and conduct a 'root and branch' revision of police services to reflect that new higher risk, and multi-faceted, security requirement.
> 
> I'm no Trudeau fan, but when the PM says the police plan was 'no plan at all' that's a huge failing that needs to be addressed with various levels of house cleaning, reorganizing and training because this particular type of 'public disorder Genie' isn't going back in the bottle anytime soon.


It was a pretty specific leadership/command failure. As soon as the right people and organizations plugged in the right command structure, a plan that was already in the process of being crafted came together quickly and was executed effectively. The delays don’t reflect a fundamental underlying inability of Canadian law enforcement to handle an event of this scale and nature; some certain people simply couldn’t cognitively change gears and make it happen. With an effective plan and command, the job was done. It took us three weeks to end that gong show, but the final resolution was a model of safe and effective public order policing- absolutely minimal injury, use of force, or damage to property. Granted, part of that is due to the nature and motivations of the crowd. They were there to try to force a change in government policy or government constitution outright. They weren’t there to fight cops or burn a Starbucks.

Canada isn’t accustomed to public disorder on this scale, and the underlying motivations were very different from, say, a trade summit of known and finite duration where foreign delegates will wrap up and go home, or a riot in the wake of a hockey game where people will get tired and sober up. The convoy was a major shift for us in dealing with major events, and many, many lessons have been or are being learned from the lowest tactical levels all the way up to strategic planning and intelligence.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Then perhaps you’re making unsupported assumptions about what my views are grounded on. If you’re leaping to assuming that I’m building on some ‘racist/mysoginistic’ narrative, I respectfully suggest you have your own biases to check.
> 
> I’m only speaking to what I observed on the ground in the role I played. I’m not in a position to speak to what was happening behind the scenes on the financials front. I’ll be interested to learn more about that once the commission’s report is out. Likewise, I’ve also said many times now that I am not yet convinced about the necessity of the EA, save for noting that for me personally it granted me no new powers that I lacked or that were necessary to lawfully clear people out of downtown and arrest those who tried to be difficult about it.
> 
> ...


I personally object to the use of the term occupier by you. They are protesters, not occupiers. 

Occupier is a politicized word. Just because protesters are doing illegal things doesn't make them "occupiers".  

Why are you using this term to describe Canadian citizens who are protesting?


----------



## QV (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I personally object to the use of the term occupier by you. They are protesters, not occupiers.
> 
> Occupier is a politicized word. Just because protesters are doing illegal things doesn't make them "occupiers".
> 
> Why are you using this term to describe Canadian citizens who are protesting?


He does this often and it's to establish a certain frame.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Dec 2022)

Words and terminology are important.


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> *Labels*/Words and terminology are important.


Updated from my perspective. Narrative directs the discourse.


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Not sure why some are offended by the word occupier. It’s a good descriptor as any.


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure why some are offended by the word occupier. It’s a good descriptor as any.


Would you so easily defend that word in Caledonia?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Not sure why some are offended by the word occupier. It’s a good descriptor as any.


Occupier - "a member of a group that takes possession of a country by force."

I respect the role Police Officer(s) play in our legal system but it would be appreciated if they could at least pretend they are carrying out their duties in an impartial manner that is free from political bias.

😉


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> Would you so easily defend that word in Caledonia?


Um, yes?


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Um, yes?


Occupier has a negative connotation. Are you sure you want to take on a FN fight. The OPP and the Ontario government are scared.


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## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Occupier - "a member of a group that takes possession of a country by force."
> 
> I respect the role Police Officer(s) play in our legal system but it would be appreciated if they could at least pretend they are carrying out their duties in an impartial manner that is free from political bias.
> 
> 😉


Selective definition.


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> Occupier has a negative connotation. Are you sure you want to take on a FN fight. The OPP and the Ontario government are scared.


I’m not taking on any fight.  I’m just not offended by the word. 

Why does the word offend you? Because of the negative side of it?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Selective definition.


No, it's the literal definition, from the dictionary. Your application of the word is the only thing that's selective.


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> No, it's the literal definition, from the dictionary. Your application of the word is the only thing that's selective.


No that is one definition that you latched onto.  I can see why you object to it as it is not an apt definition.  You see in dictionaries they have more than one definition as words can have several meanings despite being similar.  Still don’t get why it offends.  

How about this one:


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> No, it's the literal definition, from the dictionary. Your application of the word is the only thing that's selective.



We cant even define what a woman is any more, as a society. 

You might be asking alot for people to use dictionary definitions.


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We cant even define what a woman is any more, as a society.
> 
> You might be asking alot for people to use dictionary definitions.


See dictionary definition above.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We cant even define what a woman is any more, as a society.
> 
> You might be asking alot for people to use dictionary definitions.


Yep, I'm tempted to take a gander through @Remius  Search history because I'm pretty sure "overthrow the Govt" and "Occupier" have been used multiple times in the same sentences and paragraphs by them in this very thread but.....

I don't have the fortitude to suffer through the creative gymnastics that will ensue.

I'll just go watch Question Period on CPAC for my fill instead 😄

@Halifax Tar  we must be just "experiencing things differently" 😄


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> See dictionary definition above.



Easy, troop.  I was just trying to lighten things up a bit.


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yep, I'm tempted to take a gander through @Remius  Search history because I'm pretty sure "overthrow the Govt" and "Occupier" have been used multiple times in the same sentences and paragraphs by them in this very thread but.....
> 
> I don't have the fortitude to suffer through the creative gymnastics that will ensue.
> 
> ...


Go for it. But the mental gymnastics you took to misinterpret Brihard’s words to derail the thread is impressive.  If you honestly thought that his use of that word meant the cherry picked definition you used  we really won’t be able to meet anywhere in the middle on this.

I mean be offended.  I still don’t know why that word would offend.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

@Halifax Tar @Weinie   I'd also really like to know what legal document @brihard  Is using when he refers to the protestors as "Occupiers".  

As someone who is "simply interested in upholding the rule of law" I'd really love to see what legal document specifically mentions the word "occupier" in it?


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m not taking on any fight.  I’m just not offended by the word.
> 
> Why does the word offend you? Because of the negative side of it?


Because I believe in protest in a democracy. When protesters are derided as occupiers(and pre-ordained racists and miscyongists) then I push back. 

What happened in Ottawa was, IMO, a travesty to democracy. It was embarrassing to see the OPS, the Ont gov't, and the PMO and the PM, react the way they did. But the narrative was built by the PM, who I would say phuqued this up. That set the stage for others to follow, with little course-correction or appreciation for public sentiment.

So for protesters to go to occupiers is re-writing history, and re-writing the dictionary


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> @Halifax Tar @Weinie   I'd also really like to know what legal document @brihard  Is using when he refers to the protestors as "Occupiers".
> 
> As someone who is "simply interested in upholding the rule of law" I'd really love to see what legal document specifically mentions the word "occupier" in it?



lol Dont use me in this!  

Im enjoying my sideline sniping lol 

Im going back to the AOPs thread lol


----------



## Remius (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> Because I believe in protest in a democracy. When protesters are derided as occupiers(and pre-ordained racists and miscyongists) then I push back.
> 
> What happened in Ottawa was, IMO, a travesty to democracy. It was embarrassing to see the OPS, the Ont gov't, and the PMO and the PM, react the way they did. But the narrative was built by the PM, who I would say phuqued this up. That set the stage for others to follow, with little course-correction or appreciation for public sentiment.
> 
> So for protesters to go to occupiers is re-writing history, and re-writing the dictionary


Protesters and occupiers can be one in the same.  Or move from one to the other. 

That’s what happened here.  Started as a protest, became an occupation.  

You don’t like that definition of it.  That’s fine and your prerogative.  I and others see it that way so we disagree.  That’s it.   Still don’t get being offended by a particular word that is a legit descriptor.

Labelling the entire thing as racist and misogynist isn’t right either. I can concede that point.  Labelling the ones that are is not wrong either though.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Go for it. But the mental gymnastics you took to misinterpret Brihard’s words to derail the thread is impressive.  If you honestly thought that his use of that word meant the cherry picked definition you used  we really won’t be able to meet anywhere in the middle on this.
> 
> I mean be offended.  I still don’t know why that word would offend.


Nobody is misinterpreting anything.  A person who has openly identified as a law enforcement officer and admitted they were there at the protest in a law enforcement capacity is using the term "occupier".

That's concerning to me.  Especially because words (spoken or written) coming out of peoples mouths matter,  especially when they claim to be someone who "enforces the law".

We're they "removing occupiers" or were they "breaking up an unlawful assembly"?  Why was the assembly declared unlawful?  Why aren't we calling them protesters?  What laws were being broken specifically?


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

The terms “occupied” or “occupation” have been used in both Provincial and Superior court in Ontario to describe the events in downtown Ottawa in February 2022. You’ll find that in _R. v. Romlewski_, 2022 ONCJ 502, a criminal conviction for obstructing police, and _R. v. Lich_, 2022 ONSC 4390, a bail review, both available on CanLII. The term has been accepted and used by judges in both of those courts. There will be more as we see more verdicts reached and reported in writing.

Those who want to quibble on the terminology can have at ‘er, but the courts are satisfied it fits. A military occupation of a conquered territory is not the only way the word is used. I will avoid the term from here on, but that’s to avoid sidetracks borne out of apparent hurt feelings: not because it doesn’t apply.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> What laws were being broken specifically?



Mischief and Obstruct Police under the Criminal Code are overwhelmingly the most charged offences arising out of the freedom convoy.

One can be protesting, but also commit criminal acts. Standing out there and yelling about the government is protesting. Being part of a massed blockage of city streets using vehicles, and obstructing efforts to remove those vehicles, is crime. That’s why people were charged and are beginning to be convicted.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> The terms “occupied” or “occupation” have been used in both Provincial and Superior court in Ontario to describe the events in downtown Ottawa in February 2022. You’ll find that in _R. v. Romlewski_, 2022 ONCJ 502, a criminal conviction for obstructing police, and _R. v. Lich_, 2022 ONSC 4390, a bail review, both available on CanLII. The term has been accepted and used by judges in both of those courts. There will be more as we see more verdicts reached and reported in writing.
> 
> Those who want to quibble on the terminology can have at ‘er, but the courts are satisfied it fits. A military occupation of a conquered territory is not the only way the word is used. I will avoid the term from here on, but that’s to avoid sidetracks borne out of apparent hurt feelings: not because it doesn’t apply.
> 
> ...


But "occupied" and "occupation" are also different from "occupier".  The first two refer to an action while the latter is referring to a person.



			https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2022/2022oncj502/2022oncj502.html?autocompleteStr=R%20v%20romlew&autocompletePos=1
		


The Court documents you use as your justification also label them as "protesters" not "occupiers".

Referring to protesters as "occupiers" shouldn't be done and I am glad you have reconsidered this.

I have no issue with anything else you've said.  I do agree that the assembly had become unlawful and that certain protesters were breaking the law.  I was also impressed with the way the Police dealt with the situation.


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> But "occupied" and "occupation" are also different from "occupier".  The first two refer to an action while the latter is referring to a person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough, and thanks- wall of text effect hitting tone, I think.

I think, if an “occupation” exists, or if a space is “occupied”, then those doing so must logically be “occupiers”. But anyway, it’s linguistic quibbling at this point. I would be surprised if that version of the word doesn’t also appear in case law in due course- it’s taking a while for things to come to trial.


----------



## Weinie (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Fair enough, and thanks- wall of text effect hitting tone, I think.
> 
> I think, if an “occupation” exists, or if a space is “occupied”, then those doing so must logically be “occupiers”. But anyway, it’s linguistic quibbling at this point. *I would be supervised* if that version of the word doesn’t also appear in case law in due course- it’s taking a while for things to come to trial.


And well you should be.


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

Weinie said:


> And well you should be.


Lol, good catch and well played. Stupid phone keyboard.


----------



## childs56 (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Ah yes. The small crew who locked down Nicholas and Laurier for a few hours. They got cleared out, and nobody was hurt save for some feelings. That had nothing to do with the convoy response, or initial lack thereof. The convoy were committing criminal offences en masse from day one when they blocked numerous roads and prevented the use and enjoyment of downtown roads and properties. While enforcement took a few weeks, it was criminal right from the start, and that’s what a bunch of people were ultimately arrested and charged for.


Can you explain the CRIMINAL OFFENCES they were committing? How many were convicted, stayed and or dropped?  How many charges were laid after the EMA was enacted?


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

childs56 said:


> Can you explain the CRIMINAL OFFENCES they were committing? How many were convicted, stayed and or dropped?  How many charges were laid after the EMA was enacted?


They’ve been explained as nauseum throughout this thread, in court hearings that have been reported on, and in the course of the public order commission. You’re free to read any of the many volumes of related material; I’m not burning my time to spoon feed you.

I don’t have statistics on the charges, but there has been at least one conviction at trial, numerous guilty pleas, and most scheduled trials are still pending- I’m actually surprised any trials have happened yet, but at least one has. I provided a citation for it earlier on today.

Most of the charges will be post-EA and will stem from arrests made when police cleared them out, however those charges (mostly mischief and obstruct police) have nothing do with the the EA and don’t depend on the emergency proclamation to stand.


----------



## mariomike (8 Dec 2022)

Saw this about charges laid,









						More than 500 charges laid during convoy protest, Ottawa police say
					

A summary of charges laid between Jan. 29 and March 12 was entered as evidence this week this week during the Emergency Act inquiry.




					ottawacitizen.com
				






> The Emergencies Act inquiry testimony of Acting Deputy Chief Trish Ferguson ran counter to protesters' claims that the convoy had been peaceful until police moved in after the act was invoked.





> A summary of charges laid between Jan. 29 and March 12 entered as evidence at the inquiry showed police laid 12 charges of assaulting a police officer, six charges of assault, five charges of possessing a weapon, three charges of assault or intimidation with a weapon, two charges of carrying a concealed weapon, one charge of possessing a restricted firearm and four charges of uttering threats of death or bodily harm.





> There were also more than 200 charges of mischief, 112 charges of obstructing a police officer and 87 charges of disobeying a court order.


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## childs56 (8 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> They’ve been explained as nauseum throughout this thread, in court hearings that have been reported on, and in the course of the public order commission. You’re free to read any of the many plumes of related material; I’m not burning my time to spoon feed you.
> 
> I don’t have statistics on the charges, but there has been at least one conviction at trial, numerous guilty pleas, and most scheduled trials are still pending- I’m actually surprised any trials have happened yet, but at least one has. I provided a citation for it earlier on today.
> 
> Most of the charges will be post-EMA and will stem from arrests made when police cleared them out, however those charges (mostly mischief and obstruct police) have nothing do with the the EA and don’t depend on the emergency proclamation to stand.



many of those charges are what one calls catch all charges such as the Military's 129. (1) Any act, conduct, disorder or neglect to the prejudice of good order and discipline is an offence and every person convicted thereof is liable to dismissal with disgrace from His Majesty’s service or to less punishment.
It will be interesting to see how many of those charges are dropped.


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## brihard (8 Dec 2022)

Funny enough, Obstruction of a Peace Officer is s.129- but of the Criminal Code. Mischief to Property is s.430. They can both indeed capture a lot of different behaviour that reaches a criminal threshold, but the similarity to an NDA 129 Conduct Prejudicial pretty much ends there.


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## FormerHorseGuard (9 Dec 2022)

This whole thing was a waste of Canadian resources.  Fuel to idle for days, fuel for the drive across Canada. Waste of police resources across the country. Traffic control duties,  crowd control and the force to push them out. 
Waste of tax payers money to pay for extra policing, Rations & Quarters for the police etc. Was waste of EMS time, the cost to clean up after they left. 
Wasted effort for changes that were demanded and nothing changed. 
Wasted of donated money, as it sits in limbo awaiting court cases and freezes. Money could of actually helped some people all across Canada with real problems.
Waste of money investigating the protest and police forces. 

Damages to Canadian world wide reputation, making CNN is not some we should be proud of.

Positive things ( some in jest )
gave some crazy people and not so crazy people a sense of power, belonging, and greed.
still laugh at the cars driving around with stickers that say convoy control.
gave a lot of money to lawyers to defend the protesters in court and at the enquiry.

Nothing changed, just have road blocks in places still. 
Divided the country in more ways then the French and English issues.
Now dividing WEST/EAST/QUEBEC/


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## QV (9 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> This whole thing was a waste of Canadian resources. Fuel to idle for days, fuel for the drive across Canada. Waste of police resources across the country. Traffic control duties, crowd control and the force to push them out. Waste of tax payers money to pay for extra policing, Rations & Quarters for the police etc. Was waste of EMS time, the cost to clean up after they left. Wasted effort for changes that were demanded and nothing changed. Wasted of donated money, as it sits in limbo awaiting court cases and freezes. Money could of actually helped some people all across Canada with real problems. Waste of money investigating the protest and police forces. Damages to Canadian world wide reputation, making CNN is not some we should be proud of. Positive things ( some in jest ) gave some crazy people and not so crazy people a sense of power, belonging, and greed. still laugh at the cars driving around with stickers that say convoy control. gave a lot of money to lawyers to defend the protesters in court and at the enquiry. Nothing changed, just have road blocks in places still. Divided the country in more ways then the French and English issues. Now dividing WEST/EAST/QUEBEC/



Right. Just STFU and do what Trudeau tells you. Same goes for the gun ban and any other decree.


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## Remius (9 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> This whole thing was a waste of Canadian resources.  Fuel to idle for days, fuel for the drive across Canada. Waste of police resources across the country. Traffic control duties,  crowd control and the force to push them out.
> Waste of tax payers money to pay for extra policing, Rations & Quarters for the police etc. Was waste of EMS time, the cost to clean up after they left.
> Wasted effort for changes that were demanded and nothing changed.
> Wasted of donated money, as it sits in limbo awaiting court cases and freezes. Money could of actually helped some people all across Canada with real problems.
> ...


Well at least they’ll never be able to bring trucks to the parliamentary precinct ever again.  And if the new OPS chief’s reputation is anything to go by I’m fairly certain that any future convoy shenanigans will be ended well before it is allowed to get out of hand.


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## QV (9 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Well at least they’ll never be able to bring trucks to the parliamentary precinct ever again.  And if the new OPS chief’s reputation is anything to go by I’m fairly certain that any future convoy shenanigans will be ended well before it is allowed to get out of hand.


Lessons learned on both sides. Doubt the next iteration of discontent from the normies will allow a situation where an unlawful assembly or crimes take place and get them shut down. They'll play it much smarter.


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## Lumber (9 Dec 2022)

QV said:


> Lessons learned on both sides. Doubt the next iteration of discontent from the normies will allow a situation where an unlawful assembly or crimes take place and get them shut down. They'll play it much smarter.


I don't really follow what you're saying. The "normies" were all gone by the time the city had had enough and wanted the convoy gone.


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## Remius (9 Dec 2022)

Is Bauder considered a « normie »? He’s planning another convoy for Feb 2023.


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## FormerHorseGuard (9 Dec 2022)

QV said:


> Right. Just STFU and do what Trudeau tells you. Same goes for the gun ban and any other decree.


Not a fan of his or the party
Just saying the whole thing was a waste of time 


They could of protested and changed things had their followers just voted the convoy line across Canada


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## childs56 (9 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> This whole thing was a waste of Canadian resources.  Fuel to idle for days, fuel for the drive across Canada.


They had money to use, for some this was their one and only protest where their lively hoods were directly affected. That's why it had so much support.
Lots had never driven across Canada so it was their first time. The support they had was overwhelming for many who thought Western Canada was isolated from the East. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Waste of police resources across the country. Traffic control duties,  crowd control and the force to push them out.


all protests are a waste of Police Resources. Along with summits that happen such as the COP 22 right now in Quebec. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Waste of tax payers money to pay for extra policing, Rations & Quarters for the police etc. Was waste of EMS time, the cost to clean up after they left.
> Wasted effort for changes that were demanded and nothing changed.


A lot changed,  the country became united on many fronts from coast to coast. People all over were talking of support or disagree with, it united them like no other in the country in my life time.  Costs to clean up and services are not out of the norm for similar actions. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Wasted of donated money, as it sits in limbo awaiting court cases and freezes. Money could of actually helped some people all across Canada with real problems.
> Waste of money investigating the protest and police forces.


Waste of money is an opinion, the money raised was for a cause many across the country viewed as something real to them. Again it united so many across the country. The money did help many people. Their feeling of pride for standing up against a government in a peaceful yet supportive manner means it wasn't a waste. The fact that Blue Collar Canadians can raise that much money in that short period of time tells the Government they are not the ones in control.  


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Damages to Canadian world wide reputation, making CNN is not some we should be proud of.


Absolutely BS,  the Freedom Convoy did nothing to damage Canada's reputation around the world. Trudeau did when he enacted the Emergency Measures Act to quell a peaceful protest. (he has been called out about it around the world). He was called out about his oppressive means to which he power grabbed to keep control during this time.  Lets not forget he was trying to enact the EMA in the beginning of COVID, But the Provinces told him NO. They needed him to close the borders fully. to which he stated he did not want to harm Canada's trade. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Positive things ( some in jest )
> gave some crazy people and not so crazy people a sense of power, belonging, and greed.


LOL


FormerHorseGuard said:


> still laugh at the cars driving around with stickers that say convoy control.


lots of them around, I also laugh at those sporting NDP and Liberal Stickers, usually those were bought with cerb payments. 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> gave a lot of money to lawyers to defend the protesters in court and at the enquiry.


Lawyers have to eat also


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Nothing changed, just have road blocks in places still.


Lots changed, just look at how the government is scrambling to ban every frigging firearm. they also have changed how banking for protest fundraising  is done. They also are in the midst of changing Police jurisdictions in Ottawa. It showed how disorganized Police departments are, how they lack communication at all levels along with equipment, policies and procedures.  It showed that the even the RCMP Commissioner lied, threw her Department heads under the bus. It reinforced with her members how they already felt about her.  I 


FormerHorseGuard said:


> Divided the country in more ways then the French and English issues.
> Now dividing WEST/EAST/QUEBEC/


What this brought forward is that the divide was never French or English, it was Politicians. Who provide much more for the East and little for the west. Although directly the convoy did not do this. The fall out afterwards has. The connections many made in Ottawa and elsewhere have longer lasting effects. The people are the same across the Country, we all want what's best for you and me. Many Politicians want what's best for their and their FWB back pocket. Could care less about you or I.  
The best part is watching the Alberta Sovereignty Act fiasco. Ottawa saying it is unconstitutional for such a thing and they will quash it. Yet Quebec has their own Sovereignty Act. One of two things will happen. time will tell. 

Yes some feel the protest of white supremacist, bigots, misogynist, redneck, hilbilly from out west  was a waste of time. Some feel that it was Internationally supported (unlike the last liberal elections and the RCMP secure voice communication system) the protest was not. 
The protest joined this country together like nothing else. It had support from around the world, 
You think what you think, I think what I think, everyone else can think what they think. As long as I do not directly effect you, and you me and everyone else who cares. When those you support effect my family, my friends, my community expect me to and others to stand up for what right. I would expect you to do the same.


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## Quirky (9 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Well at least they’ll never be able to bring trucks to the parliamentary precinct ever again.



Not with a Liberal government anyway.


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## mariomike (3 Jan 2023)

Fizzled.









						Infighting appears to have derailed return of ‘freedom convoy’
					

A “freedom convoy 2.0” reunion protest set to roll into Winnipeg has been nixed, but protesters vow to assemble in Winnipeg this February under a new banner.



					www.winnipegfreepress.com


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## brihard (3 Jan 2023)

mariomike said:


> Fizzled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The so-called ‘freedom convoy’ movement is not monolithic. James Bauder is a) an idiot, and b) one leadership figure of one quasi-faction. He was the one behind that “memorandum of understanding” that the Ottawa convoy briefly got behind, the one that would have seen the HoC supplanted, and the convoy crowd along with the Senste and the GG forming some sort of alternative… never really clear what. But is was a proposed usurpation of government. Anywho, that was Bauder. He’s one of the kookiest of the big names in the Ottawa convoy crew. He was more polarizing than many specifically because of the MOU. His withdrawal from this does not mean there isn’t still a push on some parts to make something happen at that place and date. His absence may actually leave room for others who are less absurd and disorganized to play more of a role.

Now, any event slated for Winnipeg in February is not one I’d pin as likely to be much of a big thing- but you never know. What it may be is an opportunity for those still trying to make a go of this movement to shake out who the new ideological and organizational leadership are.


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## PMedMoe (3 Jan 2023)

Sounds like too many people want their 15 minutes of fame.


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## dapaterson (3 Jan 2023)

PMedMoe said:


> Sounds like too many people want their 15 minutes of fame.



In Winnipeg.

In February.

On the plus side, no mosquitoes.


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## RangerRay (3 Jan 2023)

mariomike said:


> Fizzled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ArmyRick (3 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> I don't really follow what you're saying. The "normies" were all gone by the time the city had had enough and wanted the convoy gone.


Oh had they now? I had several friends (you know from Ontario, it wasn't all western Canadians) that were their until the end. I don't think farmers, accountants, mechanics count as fringe minority anarchist.


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## ArmyRick (3 Jan 2023)

Over and over again, I hear the same basic narrative. Everything's fine in Canada, just a few bumps in the road, no need for complaining.

Really don't want to hear from another GOVERNMENT employed person about "its all ok".  I just found out another friend is selling his house and moving far away from family and friends to go some place where his employment can match his ability to support his family. I had another farmer friend in October I dropped by to say hello and discovered the whole family sold their farm and moved to Beleize. A good friend of mine had to have his adult children move back into his house with their own kids because despite working 60+ hours a week, his son can't feed his family, pay the rent and utilities.

Go right ahead and explain it away with a bunch of blah, blah, blah, long winded explanations. Or try experiencing the hardship first hand. I am still feeling the burn of having to sell 1/3 of my cattle herd this fall to hold onto my farm. What do I know? I only grow food for this country. 

Their is a reason this country is divided. Stop blaming the messengers and start holding your political leaders accountable. Many of you are not and in fact, excusing or justifying The Trudeau Liberals total incompetent and mismanagement.


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## Lumber (3 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> Over and over again, I hear the same basic narrative. Everything's fine in Canada, just a few bumps in the road, no need for complaining.
> 
> Really don't want to hear from another GOVERNMENT employed person about "its all ok".  I just found out another friend is selling his house and moving far away from family and friends to go some place where his employment can match his ability to support his family. I had another farmer friend in October I dropped by to say hello and discovered the whole family sold their farm and moved to Beleize. A good friend of mine had to have his adult children move back into his house with their own kids because despite working 60+ hours a week, his son can't feed his family, pay the rent and utilities.
> 
> ...


I don't work for the government anymore and I am also having a hard time making ends meet without increasing my credit card and LoC debt. I'm at the point where I am genuinely concerned how I'm ever going to get my debt under control, and I have cut out basically all of my discretionary spending and buy my clothes at Frenchy's.

But I don't blame all of this on government incompetence. I have ZERO doubt that if the cons were in power, we'd be in the exact same position wrt housing prices (rent and mortgage rates) and inflation (especially food costs). Show me a policy the liberals have enacted that has contribute in a _substantial _way to our current situation.

Also, I am holding my political leaders accountable. I keep _not _voting for Trudeay, but here we are.


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## ArmyRick (3 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> I don't work for the government anymore and I am also having a hard time making ends meet without increasing my credit card and LoC debt. I'm at the point where I am genuinely concerned how I'm ever going to get my debt under control, and I have cut out basically all of my discretionary spending and buy my clothes at Frenchy's.
> 
> But I don't blame all of this on government incompetence. I have ZERO doubt that if the cons were in power, we'd be in the exact same position wrt housing prices (rent and mortgage rates) and inflation (especially food costs). Show me a policy the liberals have enacted that has contribute in a _substantial _way to our current situation.
> 
> Also, I am holding my political leaders accountable. I keep _not _voting for Trudeay, but here we are.


The BIGGEST change the government can make is policies and decisions that enable economic growth (not suppression).

Their is ZERO reason Canada can not be a booming nation if we truly tap into our oil and gas. With Germany just here begging for LNG and our idiot said "No business case for it..." WTF? 

But hey, lets ban more legit hunting and sports shooting firearms costing more tax payers money. 

I don't feel Canadians are fired up enough about their government.


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## Brad Sallows (3 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> I have ZERO doubt that if the cons were in power, we'd be in the exact same position wrt housing prices (rent and mortgage rates) and inflation (especially food costs). Show me a policy the liberals have enacted that has contribute in a _substantial _way to our current situation.


We wouldn't be in the exact same position.  It's unlikely that deficit budgets would have been the norm.  The government's fiscal position would be better; inflation would be lower; interest rates would not have to be pushed as high to attempt to curb inflation.  Even a half a percent of inflation or interest rates would be substantial money to most people in the middle class.


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## mariomike (3 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> I don't feel Canadians are fired up enough about their government.



Some may be as fired up now as they were a year ago, or after he beat Harper ... Scheer ... O'Toole ...

2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux​


Scott said:


> The folks with serious TDS might not survive that long without stroking out.


----------



## Lumber (3 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> The BIGGEST change the government can make is policies and decisions that enable economic growth (not suppression).
> 
> Their is ZERO reason Canada can not be a booming nation if we truly tap into our oil and gas. With Germany just here begging for LNG and our idiot said "No business case for it..." WTF?
> 
> ...


Ok, so I asked you what policies were made by the Trudeau liberals that caused us to be in (or contributed to our being in) our negative situation, and you haven't provided one. You presented instead an argument that decisions were made to not do things that could have ameliorated our situation. Those aren't the same thing, "policies that made our situation bad"  are not the same as "policies that don't help us get better". I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a policy or decision our current government made that materially contributed to our current economic woes.

Now, to your specific example about the whole LNG deal with Germany:

Germay (and mainland Europe in general) have an _immediate _need substitute their dependence on Russian gas supplies
Canada has no ready liquefied natural gas export infrastructure, and it will take at least 3 years before new projects come online
Europe is accelerating its plans to reduce gas use by ramping up energy efficiency and the use of renewable energy sources
Markets like Norway are more logical to fill immediate needs
Canada cannot ramp up supply before 2025, while Europe’s energy needs will largely be resolved by that time
Therefore, new Canadian liquefied natural gas infrastructure would be at risk of becoming stranded once it came online in 2025
Look, if you're going to talk about you and you're family's and your friend's problems _right now, _you can't use an example and say "things are this bad because the government is incompetent" because they chose _not to do things_ that wouldn't have seen a benefit tot he economy for _literally years_ in the future. It's not like if they had signed the deal, the economy would have suddenly gotten better over night. 

So, do you have any other examples of decisions made by the Trudeau Libearls that either a. materially contributed to our current economic woes, or b. prevented us from being in a substantially better position _today (_i.e. would have prevented your friend from having to have his adult children move back into his house). I'll wait...


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## OldSolduer (3 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> I don't feel Canadians are fired up enough about their government.


Because politicians continue to bribe us with OUR own money.


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## Brad Sallows (3 Jan 2023)

Actually, older folks on reduced incomes can start to look at the younger folks and claim that politicians continue to bribe all of us with their (younger working folks) own money...


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## ArmyRick (3 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Ok, so I asked you what policies were made by the Trudeau liberals that caused us to be in (or contributed to our being in) our negative situation, and you haven't provided one. You presented instead an argument that decisions were made to not do things that could have ameliorated our situation. Those aren't the same thing, "policies that made our situation bad"  are not the same as "policies that don't help us get better". I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a policy or decision our current government made that materially contributed to our current economic woes.
> 
> Now, to your specific example about the whole LNG deal with Germany:
> 
> ...


EVERYONE I spoke to in oil and gas industry one way or another (I know a few) have said there was huge potential to develop LNG. There is also much more than LNG with O & G. The pipelines ring a bell? 

Policies? Lets start with carbon tax. GET RID OF IT!


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## ArmyRick (3 Jan 2023)

mariomike said:


> Some may be as fired up now as they were a year ago, or after he beat Harper ... Scheer ... O'Toole ...


Funny. I remember Paul Martins Liberals having a cocky attitude in the 2006 election. Then suddenly, they weren't the government anymore.

Trudeau has gone from a majority to a minority to another minority. You call that a win?


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## Remius (3 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> Funny. I remember Paul Martins Liberals having a cocky attitude in the 2006 election. Then suddenly, they weren't the government anymore.
> 
> Trudeau has gone from a majority to a minority to another minority. You call that a win?


Liberals didn’t win the last election.  From my POV the conservatives lost it.  Remains to be seen if they will lose the next one again.


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## Lumber (3 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> EVERYONE I spoke to in oil and gas industry one way or another (I know a few) have said there was huge potential to develop LNG. There is also much more than LNG with O & G. The pipelines ring a bell?
> 
> Policies? Lets start with carbon tax. GET RID OF IT!


Swing and a miss. Once again you've failed to provide me any relevant examples.

I'm not going to deny that their is huge potential to develop LNG in Canada. That's why there's a project literally called "LGN Canada", which received it's permits and environmental assessments in 2016 and approved in 2018. That was during Harper's reign, right? Oh wait...

Pipelines? The Trudeau liberals bought a pipeline for $4.5 billion in order to ensure Alberta's oil products could get to BC.

Carbon tax? I believe I've already gone over this recently. For the provinces that DO have a carbon tax in place, carbon tax added only a few pennies to a litre of gas, nat gas, and propane. The carbon tax has had a negligible effect on the inflation of the cost of living, doubly so when compared to how much of an effect outside factors have had. So, sure we could get rid of it, but it would not change the situation your friends are in, and if we had never had it in the first place, we still would be where we are.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Swing and a miss. Once again you've failed to provide me any relevant examples.
> 
> I'm not going to deny that their is huge potential to develop LNG in Canada. That's why there's a project literally called "LGN Canada", which received it's permits and environmental assessments in 2016 and approved in 2018. That was during Harper's reign, right? Oh wait...
> 
> ...



And the overhead is increasing exponentially.... the camel's back is groaning:


Public service will swell to 409,000 in five years, PBO says​“Oh, yes, they’re growing the public service,” parliamentary budget officer says, with an extra $2.3 billion earmarked for salaries and benefits.

OTTAWA – The seven-year hiring spree in Canada’s public service will continue with billions of dollars in additional spending that will push the size of the workforce to about 409,000 jobs within five years, says the parliamentary budget officer.

Treasury Board President Mona Fortier tabled the government’s latest spending plans – known as supplementary estimates (B) – asking Parliament to approve another $21 billion. That’s among some of the biggest asks in supplementary estimates other than emergency spending to deal with the pandemic.

In his latest report, Parliamentary Budget Officer Yves Giroux estimates $2.3 billion of this additional spending is needed for the salaries and benefits of an expanding bureaucracy, which pushes the wage bill to $55 billion this year. That’s more than $130,000 per full-time employee.










						Public service will swell to 409,000 in five years, PBO says
					

“Oh, yes, they’re growing the public service,” parliamentary budget officer says, with an extra $2.3 billion for salaries and benefits.




					policyoptions.irpp.org


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## kev994 (3 Jan 2023)

daftandbarmy said:


> And the overhead is increasing exponentially.... the camel's back is groaning:
> 
> 
> Public service will swell to 409,000 in five years, PBO says​“Oh, yes, they’re growing the public service,” parliamentary budget officer says, with an extra $2.3 billion earmarked for salaries and benefits.
> ...


The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the ever-expanding needs of the bureaucracy.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Jan 2023)

kev994 said:


> The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the ever-expanding needs of the bureaucracy.


Sounds like a line from “Yes, Minister.”


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Jan 2023)

Good2Golf said:


> Sounds like a line from “Yes, Minister.”


Oscar Wilde, apparently.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (4 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Carbon tax? I believe I've already gone over this recently. For the provinces that DO have a carbon tax in place, carbon tax added only a few pennies to a litre of gas, nat gas, and propane. The carbon tax has had a negligible effect on the inflation of the cost of living, doubly so when compared to how much of an effect outside factors have had. So, sure we could get rid of it, but it would not change the situation your friends are in, and if we had never had it in the first place, we still would be where we are.


A few pennies? How about 11 cents per litre of Gas, or 10 cents per metre of natural gas? Not to mention the add on effects of having higher gas prices, i.e. suppliers having to increase costs to cover the higher fuel prices. 

This might be nothing for you but when you consider it is close to a 10% mark up which is nothing but a tax grab it doesn't sit well with me.


----------



## ArmyRick (4 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> The carbon tax has had a negligible effect on the inflation of the cost of living, doubly so when compared to how much of an effect outside factors have had. So, sure we could get rid of it, but it would not change the situation your friends are in, and if we had never had it in the first place, we still would be where we are.


This is true because you say so?

Nope, big nope. Its alot more of a multiplier and cascading effect than you realize. I felt the pain myself.

One small example I went through
-I average 35-50 customers a year freezer meat orders (I make about 10-15G a year from this)
-Customers very satisfied with the product
-Summer is rolling around, my customers are mostly urbanites that travel 2-6 hours to get their orders (Yes that far)
-I ended up with 3 meat order customers
-I follow up with my other regulars as to what happened
-Example of some of the reasons
---Gas is too expensive to make the trip
---We can't afford meat anymore
---We have to choose between hydro, heat and food
---We can only afford to buy Costco sale beef
---I have to sell my house, can't afford anything
---Etc

I am but one example of many, many businesses that feel the pain of the carbon tax. You, yes YOU make all these assumptions that its other factors (there are a FEW not many), However you seem happy to offer up explanation after explanation. Your tone deaf. End story.

I am only touching the tip of the ice berg on Trudeau's carbon tax. Just about all of his policies are a colossal failure and waste of money. Everything they touch is a boondoggle and prime example of mismanagement. Printing new money doesn't help. Continious waste of public funds. Extra elections when he said he wouldn't do it. Never answering in parliament for his actions. How long of a list do I need to make?

The government should be doing what they can to enable Canadians, not further hinder them.

The ship is sinking with an incompetent Captain and too many people are making excuses for him. Enough.


----------



## kev994 (4 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> This is true because you say so?
> 
> Nope, big nope. Its alot more of a multiplier and cascading effect than you realize. I felt the pain myself.
> 
> ...


It’s unfortunate for you but I wouldn’t call it a boondoggle with the argument that it’s doing exactly what it’s designed to do. Driving 2-6 hours? High carbon. Eating copious amounts of beef? High carbon. Your argument is that you don’t like it because it’s working.


----------



## ArmyRick (4 Jan 2023)

Eating bee


kev994 said:


> It’s unfortunate for you but I wouldn’t call it a boondoggle with the argument that it’s doing exactly what it’s designed to do. Driving 2-6 hours? High carbon. Eating copious amounts of beef? High carbon. Your argument is that you don’t like it because it’s working.


Eating beef by itself is NOT high carbon. I will go circles around you on farming in Canada. My cattle and lamb NEVER see a feedlot, they are on pasture one day and the next in slaughterhouse. 
Driving 2-6 hours to fill a large freezer with meat in ONE trip is more efficient than 30-60 trips over six months to get weekly meat in grocery runs. YOUR making assumptions. Better dig in and get some facts first.

How is the carbon tax not a boondoggle? It isn't slowing people down (people still have to commute). It is slightly raising demand of EV (which are useless for the most part and really expensive). Hint, Canadians outside of the GTA and Urban Ontario think the Carbon Tax is causing more harm than good.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

kev994 said:


> It’s unfortunate for you but I wouldn’t call it a boondoggle with the argument that it’s doing exactly what it’s designed to do. Driving 2-6 hours? High carbon. Eating copious amounts of beef? High carbon. Your argument is that you don’t like it because it’s working.



A plan to fail going as well as a plan to fail can go is actually working as intended.  Its ridiculous, but I get it.


----------



## kev994 (4 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> Eating bee
> 
> Eating beef by itself is NOT high carbon. I will go circles around you on farming in Canada. My cattle and lamb NEVER see a feedlot, they are on pasture one day and the next in slaughterhouse.
> Driving 2-6 hours to fill a large freezer with meat in ONE trip is more efficient than 30-60 trips over six months to get weekly meat in grocery runs. YOUR making assumptions. Better dig in and get some facts first.
> ...


This is just the first one that came up but there are plenty of different sites with similar charts, beef is always near the top by a large margin. So you think that if people don’t have a freezer full of meat that they’re going to make a separate trip to the grocery store for every meal, just for meat, instead of getting it on their regular grocery trip? Ha!









						Food's Carbon Footprint
					

Food's carbon footprint, or foodprint, is the greenhouse gas emissions produced by growing, rearing, farming, processing, transporting, storing, cooking and disposing of the food you eat. In the US, each household produces 48 tons of greenhouse gases. Transport, housing and food have the three large




					www.greeneatz.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jan 2023)

A vegetarian site to argue about environmental damage meat does.......my bustout laugh for the morning.


----------



## FSTO (4 Jan 2023)

kev994 said:


> This is just the first one that came up but there are plenty of different sites with similar charts, beef is always near the top by a large margin. So you think that if people don’t have a freezer full of meat that they’re going to make a separate trip to the grocery store for every meal, just for meat, instead of getting it on their regular grocery trip? Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do these charts take into account the amount of GHG to get those fresh veggies from S Cal or Mexico to your FreshCo in Toronto? Or the amount of land that is cultivated from grassland to cropland to grow all those veggies?


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

FSTO said:


> Do these charts take into account the amount of GHG to get those fresh veggies from S Cal or Mexico to your FreshCo in Toronto? Or the amount of land that is cultivated from grassland to cropland to grow all those veggies?



Don't forget water consumption for things like almonds and avocados.


----------



## Lumber (4 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> This is true because you say so?
> 
> Nope, big nope. Its alot more of a multiplier and cascading effect than you realize. I felt the pain myself.
> 
> ...


Look, I'm only countering your insinuation that your friends are in the dire situation that they are (kids moving back in with parents) because of the Trudeau Liberal's incompetence and mismanagement. I would argue that there is _nothing _the Libs or the Cons could have done to prevent the situation we are in today. So all your points about the current government being incompetent don't matter unless they support your argument that it was the Trudeau Liberals that caused us to be in the situation we are currently in (which they don't).

You want the factors? 

The pandemic disrupted the various stages of the global supply chain, and the world economy has yet to fully recover;
The 2 years of the pandemic slowed demand for oil drastically, and oil companies stopped drilling for new oil supplies, and slowed or stopped some refineries;
The war in Ukraine lead to sanctions against Russia leading to decreases in the the supply of oil worldwide;
OPEC cut oil production to keep oil prices at a certain level;
Russia and Ukraine are, respectively, the first and fifth largest global exporters of wheat. The invasion of Ukraine caused uncertainty in global wheat markets, resulting in price volatility;
The US is Canada’s top agricultural trading partner and major source for fresh and frozen fruit and vegetables. The worst drought in at least 1,200 years is occurring in the southwestern United States. These weather conditions have contributed to increased year-over-year prices for fresh vegetables and fresh fruit.
Many of the above factors contributed to the increase in the price of i_nput prices _for finished foods, higher prices for fertilizers, etc.

The carbon tax had only a minor effect compared to all of these factors. Gas went up to $210/L this summer. How much of that was carbon tax? Oh wait, in Nova Scotia it was ZERO because we don't have a carbon tax (yet). 

Look, there are LOTS of valid reasons to ne pissed off at Trudeau and his government, but the current state of the economy is not one of them, as you've aptly proven by your inability to provide one example of something he and his government have done that materially/substatially contributed to our current situation.


----------



## Lumber (4 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> I am but one example of many, many businesses that feel the pain of the carbon tax. You, yes YOU make all these assumptions that its other factors (there are a FEW not many), However you seem happy to offer up explanation after explanation. Your tone deaf. End story.


Follow-Up: What exactly do you even mean by me being "tone deaf"? You made an argument without adequately supporting it. I provided a counter argument and supported my counter-argument, and invited you to retort with actual support for your argument. You continued to _not _provide meaningful support to your argument. I'm not even arguing that Trudeau isn't an idiot. What part am I tone deaf about? If anything, _you _are tone deaf because you are letting your anger toward Trudeau blind you to objectivity.


----------



## Lumber (4 Jan 2023)

FSTO said:


> Do these charts take into account the amount of GHG to get those fresh veggies from S Cal or Mexico to your FreshCo in Toronto? Or the amount of land that is cultivated from grassland to cropland to grow all those veggies?





Halifax Tar said:


> Don't forget water consumption for things like almonds and avocados.



Arguing over which style of eating/which foods we eat in terms of their environmental impact is almost pointless. It doesn't matter what we do; there are 8 billion of us, and ANY method of eating/diet is going to have a hugely negative impact on the planet, whether it be emissions of Green House Gasses or destruction of habitat.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Look, I'm only countering your insinuation that your friends are in the dire situation that they are (kids moving back in with parents) because of the Trudeau Liberal's incompetence and mismanagement. I would argue that there is _nothing _the Libs or the Cons could have done to prevent the situation we are in today. So all your points about the current government being incompetent don't matter unless they support your argument that it was the Trudeau Liberals that caused us to be in the situation we are currently in (which they don't).
> 
> You want the factors?
> 
> ...



I think you may win more people over if you stop telling them that small increases should be ignored.  You don't get to decide what 10 cents a liter means to anyone but yourself.  

Let's also not forget were talking about an elected official who thinks/thought that budgets balance themselves. 

JT and his gov could be enacting things like temporary tax reductions to ease the pain for people.  For instance roughly 35% of the price per liter of gas in NS is Federal and provincial taxation.  The feds could lead the way by reducing their share.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Arguing over which style of eating/which foods we eat in terms of their environmental impact is almost pointless. It doesn't matter what we do; there are 8 billion of us, and ANY method of eating/diet is going to have a hugely negative impact on the planet, whether it be emissions of Green House Gasses or destruction of habitat.



Agreed, so live and let live ?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Ok, so I asked you what policies were made by the Trudeau liberals that caused us to be in (or contributed to our being in) our negative situation, and you haven't provided one. You presented instead an argument that decisions were made to not do things that could have ameliorated our situation. Those aren't the same thing, "policies that made our situation bad"  are not the same as "policies that don't help us get better". I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a policy or decision our current government made that materially contributed to our current economic woes.
> 
> Now, to your specific example about the whole LNG deal with Germany:
> 
> ...



The list is pretty long, I'm not sure whether I should do a chronological timeline or separate the decisions in to categories? I think I'll do it by category 😁

To provide a bit of an executive summary before I begin, the Trudeau Government's model of Governance (incl their economic policies) can basically be summarized as Urbanist Socialism that sees increased Government Spending and Bigger Government as a solution to our problems.

It has greatly increased spending since coming to Power in 2015 and it's plan to accomplish this has been with deficits which will eventually be paid for with increased Government taxation.

*Lets first look at Taxation:*

When the Trudeau Government came to power they campaigned on a mandate of what can essentially be described as "Strengthening the Middile Class while Taxing the Rich".

Indeed one of their first policies was an immediate reduction in the tax rate of the "Middle Class" from 22% to 20.5% and also creating a new tax bracket for any income over $200,000.00.  

This is a popular stand to take in Canada.  Canadians seem to be naturally envious of those with more and any time someone says they are going to "stick it to the rich" that resonates with your average Canadian.

What the Trudeau Government has done since then though has been to tax everyone and anyone it could in ever increasing amounts.  It has also sought to subject more and more areas of the economy and our lives to taxation.  

Consulting firm Grant Thornton did a nice primer for small business owners and clients on the First Term of the Trudeau Government and their various new taxation schemes, you can read it here:



			https://www.grantthornton.ca/globalassets/1.-member-firms/canada/insights/pdfs/gt-19-387--business-tax-changes-article_02-20-20_v8_web.pdf
		


What has happened since then has been ever increasing amounts of taxation on basically everything and everything the Government could dig its claws into.  

With every solution being More Government Spending accompanied by more taxes.  The latest being Trudeau's Carbon Pricing scheme along with increased corporate taxes and taxes on banks and others.

It got so bad that Trudeau even caused a split in his own party with the various Red Tories in the party abandoning him, see Bill Morneau.  



			Morneau unleashes on Trudeau’s economic policies  - POLITICO
		


Here's the reality......

*Trudeau Likes Big Government and Big Government Likes Him:*

The PM and his cronies seems to think that the Government and more of it is the solution to everyones problems.  

His policies are to increase the Government's control in all aspects of our lives.  It's the equivalent of breaking our legs and then giving us crutches and telling us we should be thankful for the crutches we were given.

Trudeau has increased the size and scope of the civil service and the public sector.  His Government has spent hundred of $billions of dollars on various Public Initiatives:

He has basically sought to undo all the changes implemented by the Harper Government and greatly enlarged the Public Sector.  It's not even disputable, you can read about it here:









						Ottawa’s hiring spree is beyond measure
					

The ranks of civil servants have swollen nearly a third since the Liberal government came to power in 2015




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




I don't actually think there has ever been a point in recent History where the civil service has wielded as much power as it does today?

What else is there to say?

Trudeau and his Government seem to believe in a few things:

1.  The Government and more of it is the solution to Canada's problems.

2.  The Government's focus should be on redistribution of wealth instead of wealth creation.


The Trudeau brand is a form of Cronyism mixed with Socialism.  It's sort of like Crony-Capitalism, only "Business" is replaced with "Preferred Groups".

This picture summarizes the Trudeau Brand perfectly:


----------



## ArmyRick (4 Jan 2023)

kev994 said:


> This is just the first one that came up but there are plenty of different sites with similar charts, beef is always near the top by a large margin. So you think that if people don’t have a freezer full of meat that they’re going to make a separate trip to the grocery store for every meal, just for meat, instead of getting it on their regular grocery trip? Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you want the carbon foot print on most other foods produced in Canada? First hand experience not some wish washy green group


----------



## FSTO (4 Jan 2023)

Lumber said:


> Arguing over which style of eating/which foods we eat in terms of their environmental impact is almost pointless. It doesn't matter what we do; there are 8 billion of us, and ANY method of eating/diet is going to have a hugely negative impact on the planet, whether it be emissions of Green House Gasses or destruction of habitat.


Agree.

The vegetarian lifestyle advocates love to greenwash their choice of food intake. 

The Livestock industry have a lot of issues and they are trying to address them. But scale of production vs environmental stewardship is a hard row to hoe.


----------



## ArmyRick (4 Jan 2023)

FSTO said:


> Agree.
> 
> The vegetarian lifestyle advocates love to greenwash their choice of food intake.
> 
> The Livestock industry have a lot of issues and they are trying to address them. But scale of production vs environmental stewardship is a hard row to hoe.


Yes. You have covered one of the key issues. The BEST example of crop and livestock production I know of is Gabe Brown and Brown's ranch in North Dakota (over 5,000 acres) that implements full eco-system restoration and management, high food productions, massive carbon sequestration and minimal fossil fuel use. 
Mark Shephard in Wisconsin has the most useful orchard/livestock production system I can think of. 

Their are excellent practices and management systems for farms of ALL sizes going forward (Canada could easily become a global breadbasket) but we are hindered by old and outdated paradigms, markets at the higher end kicking farmers to the dirt (Galen Weston, thats YOU!) and government feel good bureaucrats (there are government policies and funding that encourage people to eat less beef as an example and same government will also provide funding for beef producers especially large scale feedlots, kind of self defeating, eh?)

The one consensus for us farmers (large and small) is using the Gabe Brown six soil health principles and holistic management framework is one of the best food production tools going forward. 

Herding ruminants (Cattle, yak, bison, sheep, goats, musk ox, reindeer are a few examples of domesticated ruminants) are the biggest nutrition bang for your buck, lowest carbon footprint (actually when managed half decently carbon sinks) and these ruminants can be grown almost anywhere globally.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> This is true because you say so?
> 
> Nope, big nope. Its alot more of a multiplier and cascading effect than you realize. I felt the pain myself.
> 
> ...



The current Government in Ottawa is retarded, anyone with any sort of business sense or basic understanding of economics will understand this.

The only saving grace is that everything is so bloody telegraphed by them that if you have any sort of basic understanding of commodities, you can actually make money off these dummies by playing the commodity market.  I would personally be investing heavily in Potash & Fertilizer because of pending Government interventionist policies.

Also, the real killer for average Canadian is going to be the interest rate increases due to high consumer debt.

Any basis point increase made by the Government usually takes six months to actually be felt by the market so all these interest rate increases will only start to be felt later this year  into next year.

They are going to absolutely crush average Canadians with high levels of personal debt.  If you have no debt and cash in hand though, this is going to present a tremendous buying opportunity 😉


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The current Government in Ottawa is retarded, anyone with any sort of business sense or basic understanding of economics will understand this.
> 
> The only saving grace is that everything is so bloody telegraphed by them that if you have any sort of basic understanding of commodities, you can actually make money off these dummies by playing the commodity market.  I would personally be investing heavily in Potash & Fertilizer because of pending Government interventionist policies.
> 
> ...



I think what you have to take in mind is that the average Canadian is lazy and superficial.  They like big government, and they like the government solving and doing everything for them. 

To the average Canadian the world juniors are all that matters right now.  And that says so much in my eyes.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Jan 2023)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Also, the real killer for average Canadian is going to be the interest rate increases due to high consumer debt.


Most Canadians are naive/ignorant/uninformed enough to believe Trudeau with his garbage “we’re [Govt] taking on the debt, so that you don’t have to…” word salad.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> I would personally be investing heavily in Potash & Fertilizer because of pending Government interventionist policies.











						NTR.TO · Nutrien Ltd.
					






					stocks.apple.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Jan 2023)

The Liberal plan to tax fertilizer into the ground to “reduce carbon” is going to be the death knell for hundreds, if not thousands of Canadian farmers. But that will help feed people, right?

As well, there is basically no oil company making any investment in Canada. Why would they- they can see how their efforts would be treated. If all the projects on the books in 2015 had gone forward (when “evil” Harper was still PM), instead of being regulated into nothingness by this Government, Canada would have had 2-4 million more BBL/day production capacity and tidewater capacity to get world price, instead of selling to the US for a discount. That we don’t is directly, 100% on this Liberal Government. The only reason the feds own TMX pipeline is that they made the business/regulatory environment so miserable for the Majors, nobody can make any money or get a project approved. 

But, nothing is ever the Liberals fault…


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jan 2023)

daftandbarmy said:


> And the overhead is increasing exponentially.... the camel's back is groaning:
> 
> 
> Public service will swell to 409,000 in five years, PBO says​“Oh, yes, they’re growing the public service,” parliamentary budget officer says, with an extra $2.3 billion earmarked for salaries and benefits.
> ...




For context, here's where the jobs are going (cut from the article);


> Canada Revenue Agency: 9,900 new recruits,
> Employment and Social Development Canada: 8,500,
> Public Health Agency of Canada: 1,900,
> Immigration, Refugee and Citizenship Canada (IRCC): 1,750.
> ...


They include the military within the workforce numbers, which accounts for about 25% of it. Apparently our civlian SWE is based on filled positions, not actual positions, which we've found out as we've tried to fill empty jobs. We currently have a hiring freeze on as a result, and looking at temporarily filling them with contracts (at a much higher pay rate). Genius. Some bright light probably got promoted by cutting our SWE years ago to 'eliminate' the placeholder for unfilled jobs, but weirdly we need those jobs filled to do things (and actually looking for new positions due to the increasing workload).

I guess 30 year old equipment will just replace itself. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jan 2023)

ArmyRick said:


> Eating bee
> 
> Eating beef by itself is NOT high carbon. I will go circles around you on farming in Canada. My cattle and lamb NEVER see a feedlot, they are on pasture one day and the next in slaughterhouse.
> Driving 2-6 hours to fill a large freezer with meat in ONE trip is more efficient than 30-60 trips over six months to get weekly meat in grocery runs. YOUR making assumptions. Better dig in and get some facts first.
> ...


I'm a huge fan of this approach; we did it years ago but haven't been able to find anyone recently after the last guy retired. A side of beef was a huge amount of meat, but basically we were good for a really long time, and that was splitting it with friends.

Tasted much better as well, and we ended up paying about the same per pound as what I'd buy ground beef for at the grocery store.

I don't agree with the carbon tax either; aside from the upfront costs, it compounds on everything else. The better way to reduce people's transportation usage is to not build massively spread out cities; meanwhile the GTA is going to now sprawl into the Greenbelt.

If they wanted to do something federally stopping rezoning of farmland in specific areas (ie Golden Horseshoe) would probably be more effective, and also force the cleanup of former industrial zones for redevelopment.


----------



## kev994 (4 Jan 2023)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The current Government in Ottawa is retarded, anyone with any sort of business sense or basic understanding of economics will understand this.
> 
> The only saving grace is that everything is so bloody telegraphed by them that if you have any sort of basic understanding of commodities, you can actually make money off these dummies by playing the commodity market.  I would personally be investing heavily in Potash & Fertilizer because of pending Government interventionist policies.
> 
> ...


“The government” doesn’t change interest rates, the BoC does


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think what you have to take in mind is that the average Canadian is lazy and superficial.  They like big government, and they like the government solving and doing everything for them.
> 
> To the average Canadian the world juniors are all that matters right now.  And that says so much in my eyes.


Yes, it's true.

And it's the real ruthless scoundrels who will make money off this situation.  😄



SeaKingTacco said:


> The Liberal plan to tax fertilizer into the ground to “reduce carbon” is going to be the death knell for hundreds, if not thousands of Canadian farmers. But that will help feed people, right?


Going to be real bad for farmers and us, going to be real good for the big producers though! 



SeaKingTacco said:


> *As well, there is basically no oil company making any investment in Canada. Why would they- they can see how their efforts would be treated. If all the projects on the books in 2015 had gone forward (when “evil” Harper was still PM)*, instead of being regulated into nothingness by this Government, Canada would have had 2-4 million more BBL/day production capacity and tidewater capacity to get world price, instead of selling to the US for a discount. That we don’t is directly, 100% on this Liberal Government. The only reason the feds own TMX pipeline is that they made the business/regulatory environment so miserable for the Majors, nobody can make any money or get a project approved.
> 
> But, nothing is ever the Liberals fault…



Again, for the few who have the capacity to take advantage of this situation, the best time to invest in these companies is now.  Why?

Because companies like Suncor, Cdn Natural Resources, etc are transitioning to a "value for shareholders" model.  

All of the smaller/mid-sized companies will be absorbed by these megacorps who will consolidate and develop a monopoly.  They will then be able to massively increase prices due to having a complete monopoly on the market while delivering worse and worse service and conducting no new investment.

If you remain invested, you'll make more and more money off share buybacks, splits and dividend increases every year! 

It'll be just like cigarette companies!  There will always be people addicted to nicotine, no matter how many interventions the Government tries.  Government policy actually made the existing cigarette companies that survived grow ever stronger!  They are also wildly profitable!  

Reduce supply and the available product becomes more valuable!  Who knew!!!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

kev994 said:


> “The government” doesn’t change interest rates, the BoC does


Yes yes, we know!  The BoC is "independent" and kept "at arms length"

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Who has been printing money that forced the interest rate hikes?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Jan 2023)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yes yes, we know!  The BoC is "independent" and kept "at arms length"
> 
> 🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Who has been printing money that forced the interest rate hikes?


I wonder…nope, can’t be the Liberals. Nothing is ever their fault.

Probably Harper. Again….


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Jan 2023)

kev994 said:


> “The government” doesn’t change interest rates, the BoC does


…and the Public Service is independent too…and the CBC…and…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

Good2Golf said:


> …and the Public Service is independent too…and the CBC…and…
> View attachment 75708









🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

You two had better get with the program.  Or your social credit score is going to take a major hit.

(Insert tin foil hat .gif here) 

Can't do .gif from my cell anymore.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Jan 2023)

Halifax Tar said:


> You two had better get with the program.  Or your social credit score is going to take a major hit.
> 
> (Insert tin foil hat .gif here)
> 
> Can't do .gif from my cell anymore.


Dear Leader is willing to accept the risk to our social credit score, so that we don’t have to. 😉


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

Good2Golf said:


> Dear Leader is willing to accept the risk to our social credit score, so that we don’t have to. 😉



Should we expect JT to start revealing he invented everything and is the world's greatest at everything soon ?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

Halifax Tar said:


> You two had better get with the program.  Or your social credit score is going to take a major hit.
> 
> (Insert tin foil hat .gif here)
> 
> Can't do .gif from my cell anymore.


This hombre doesn't care 🤣


----------



## QV (4 Jan 2023)

When Bill C-11 gets passed the last few pages of this thread will be outlawed and the dissidents rounded up.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2023)

QV said:


> When Bill C-11 gets passed the last few pages of this thread will be outlawed and the dissidents rounded up.



I figured that would be my fate lol


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

QV said:


> When Bill C-11 gets passed the last few pages of this thread will be outlawed and the dissidents rounded up.


I'm not too concerned 😆

We've got only two possible fates....

America will probably go the way of one:  Judge Dredd






We will probably go the way of the other:  Demolition Man


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jan 2023)

More irrefutable proof:






😄


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Jan 2023)

Insisting on looking for "big changes" will miss causes-and-effects and is just a convenient rhetorical device for avoiding criticism.

Almost everyone and everything runs close to the edge of financial risk.  All those stories about Canadians living one or two paycheques away from disruption?  People highly indebted, who knows how many maxed out?  Governments highly indebted, deficit spending to the limit of what they imagine/assume/hope is prudent?  Medical system operating near max capacity under normal conditions?  Widespread just-in-time logistics?  Energy production calibrated to closely meet demand, because large projects are expensive and time-consuming and constantly at risk of being thrown into disarray by short-term-obsessed politicians?

Small perturbations can have large effects.  Equally, small differences in the amount of perturbation - a little less government spending, for example - can substantially change outcomes.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2023)

QV said:


> When Bill C-11 gets passed the last few pages of this thread will be outlawed and the dissidents rounded up.


And I will be one of them.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Jan 2023)

OldSolduer said:


> And I will be one of the*m** 38,000,000.*


Minor correction, OS.


----------



## CBH99 (4 Jan 2023)

QV said:


> When Bill C-11 gets passed the last few pages of this thread will be outlawed and the dissidents rounded up.


I thought Bill C-11 was dead?

I remember when it was first defeated, to great fanfare.  Has it been rekindled from the dead?

Is that possible/allowed?  

(How can a party introduce legislation that gets defeated in the house, and then introduce it again a year or so later?  

With the NDP not blindly supporting the Liberals anymore, I’d have thought the prospects of it passing would be even worse…


Referring back to another thread that strung at our passions, we discussed constitutional law & how laws passed in Parliament go through enough scrutiny that they are assumed to be constitutional.  

How do we feel about a government (and one that consistently does the opposite of what it’s citizens want) deciding what content Canadians can access & what they can’t?


----------



## brihard (4 Jan 2023)

CBH99 said:


> I thought Bill C-11 was dead?
> 
> I remember when it was first defeated, to great fanfare.  Has it been rekindled from the dead?
> 
> ...


It's not dead. The Senate committee examining it just finished their consideration a couple weeks ago before the Christmas break, and proposed quite a number of amendments that should remove most of the real concerns, particularly by ensuring that user created social media content is not captured by the bill's language. It looks liek the Senate is performing the role it's expected to perform on this one.









						Senate Committee Completes Its Review of Bill C-11: What Comes Next? - Michael Geist
					

The Senate Standing Committee on Transport and Communications completed its extensive review of Bill C-11 last week. After a review for grammatical, editorial, and translation issues, the committee is expected to finalize its report back to the Senate later today. While the next steps for Bill...




					www.michaelgeist.ca
				




The committee's observations are noted here: https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/441/TRCM/Reports/C11Observations_EN_FINAL_e.pdf

Next step would be second reading in the Senate.


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jan 2023)

The Online Streaming Act in the Senate

What does CRTC getting authority over streaming services got to do with dissident roundups?


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2023)

Navy_Pete said:


> The Online Streaming Act in the Senate
> 
> What does CRTC getting authority over streaming services got to do with dissident roundups?


You should look at my 20 minute primer of "How to be a Dictator". 

One of the main things you need to do as a dictator is seize control of the media and silence the critics. This is one way of doing that.


----------



## brihard (4 Jan 2023)

Navy_Pete said:


> The Online Streaming Act in the Senate
> 
> What does CRTC getting authority over streaming services got to do with dissident roundups?



Something something dictatorship something internet.


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jan 2023)

OldSolduer said:


> You should look at my 20 minute primer of "How to be a Dictator".
> 
> One of the main things you need to do as a dictator is seize control of the media and silence the critics. This is one way of doing that.


By turning everything into Beachcombers and Heartland?

I think the more realisitc concern is that the legislation as written is potentially harmful to actual Canadian content creators because of how it's defined and potentially implemented. So shows filmed and edited in Canada with a lot of Canadian actors and suppliers (Supernatural etc) aren't considered Canadian content if the producer isn't Canadian, and smaller folks on You tube etc may get caught up in it as well. The bit about changing algorithms is potentially huge, as understanding how those work is a pretty big part of success on internet businesses.

There are already lots of subsidies and tax breaks to encourage that, we don't need excessive controls on the output as well.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2023)

Navy_Pete said:


> By turning everything into Beachcombers and Heartland?
> 
> I think the more realisitc concern is that the legislation as written is potentially harmful to actual Canadian content creators because of how it's defined and potentially implemented. So shows filmed and edited in Canada with a lot of Canadian actors and suppliers (Supernatural etc) aren't considered Canadian content if the producer isn't Canadian, and smaller folks on You tube etc may get caught up in it as well. The bit about changing algorithms is potentially huge, as understanding how those work is a pretty big part of success on internet businesses.
> 
> There are already lots of subsidies and tax breaks to encourage that, we don't need excessive controls on the output as well.


I call some Canadian TV shows "30 percenters" because the network (CTV and CBC generally) must have 30 % Canadian content. Marilyn Dennis and that stupid Corner Gas are but two examples of sub standard "Canadian"TV - cause the real good ones are Stateside.


----------



## lenaitch (4 Jan 2023)

Navy_Pete said:


> If they wanted to do something federally stopping rezoning of farmland in specific areas (ie Golden Horseshoe) would probably be more effective, and also force the cleanup of former industrial zones for redevelopment.


It might be a good idea but I'm not sure how the feds could do that under the Constitution; both property rights and municipalities are provincial powers, and federal encroachment in provincial jurisdiction is bad, at least in the west apparently.


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 Jan 2023)

@OldSolduer Sure, but there are other pretty good ones that just happen to be set in Canada but are otherwise the same as any other US show (Flashpoint, Durham county and Intelligence come to mind) and in a few cases the entire cast/production company shifted over to US network shows that didn't count as Canadian content, but still put a lot of money in Canada.

LetterKenny is a pretty big hit on the streaming side and growing outside of Canada (and Shoresy also seems popular) but I think the whole 'Canadian content' requirement just forces a lot, and it would probably be cheaper to just have funding grants contingent on 'Canadian content' for production vice the overhead for CRTC overview of all that.

The beauty of streaming services is that it's now easier than ever to see foreign content, but also means that if you make something it's a hell of a lot easier to license it internationally, so I think we'd get a lot more actual Canadian content by just encouraging filming etc in Canada, as there is already a pretty good ecosystem on the filming side of things that naturally gives opportunities for Canadian stories if you really want to see something set in Toronto or Vancouver (and not just see the CN tower in the background for 'NYC', or have Hamilton set up as Bagdad).


----------



## CBH99 (Thursday at 02:03)

OldSolduer said:


> I call some Canadian TV shows "30 percenters" because the network (CTV and CBC generally) must have 30 % Canadian content. Marilyn Dennis and that stupid Corner Gas are but two examples of sub standard "Canadian"TV - cause the real good ones are Stateside.


Ahem... any reference to Corner Gas being sub standard is blasphemy...

(Agree with the rest of your post tho)


----------



## CBH99 (Thursday at 02:15)

brihard said:


> It's not dead. The Senate committee examining it just finished their consideration a couple weeks ago before the Christmas break, and proposed quite a number of amendments that should remove most of the real concerns, particularly by ensuring that user created social media content is not captured by the bill's language. It looks liek the Senate is performing the role it's expected to perform on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You for clarifying that for me.  I was under the impression it was no longer a thing...

Personally, I feel that ANY proposal of legislation that even hints at internet censorship is wrong. Period.

We have laws in place that prohibit the showing of people being victimized in non-fictional ways, such as child porn, murders/executions, etc 

Like has been said above, making grant funding available would probably encourage more stuff to be shot here in Canada, without the  CRTC overhead.


Let me ask this...is there anything inherently wrong or broken with how things are done now?  Is a change even needed?

If not, why bother introducing C-11 at all?


----------



## Lumber (Thursday at 09:53)

Halifax Tar said:


> When Bill C-11 gets passed the last few pages of this thread will be outlawed and the dissidents rounded up.


If I didn't know your post history, I'd think you were joking.

Man, the tin hats have more numerous on this site.

Bill C-11 isn't an attempt to by the government to undermine civil liberties and control the narrative en route to a dictatorship. 

Bill C-11 is nothing more than an attempt update and modernize our broadcasting and content rules to reflect the modern nature of streaming service and online content.

No one ever had a real problem with the fact that we had rules in place to protect and encourage Canadian content. You might think some of it is trash (Coner Gas = trash, Letterkenny = amazing), but no one ever thought these rules were so that the Canadian government could manipulate you through the control of information, and that is not going to change with Bill C-11.

One of the things that our existing legislation never covered (because no one predicted it) was the monopolization of social media content (i.e. you tube channels). Before, YouTube was just a place to upload an share videos, but now, you have content creators with _millions _of followers making high quality content and racking in huge profits from their ad revenues. The traditional media (tv and radio) have regulations for their content, so why shouldn't a YouTuber? You people are insinuating that the government is going after "the little guy", but they are not; they are going after big fish that are using a platform (such as YouTube) which was traditionally inhabited only by small fish, but has now become something more.


----------



## Halifax Tar (Thursday at 09:56)

Lumber said:


> If I didn't know your post history, I'd think you were joking.
> 
> Man, the tin hats have more numerous on this site.
> 
> ...



Why is that quoting me ? I'm pretty sure that was someone else ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (Thursday at 09:59)

Lumber said:


> If I didn't know your post history, I'd think you were joking.
> 
> Man, the tin hats have more numerous on this site.
> 
> ...



I actually agree to an extent.  Technology and the internet is a playing field our laws were never designed for for.  So they need to be updated and brought up to speed. 

What we have to be careful about is that freedom of expression is not curtailed.


----------



## Lumber (Thursday at 10:04)

Halifax Tar said:


> Why is that quoting me ? I'm pretty sure that was someone else ?


That's really weird? I was definitely quoting Barrie Zwicker QV.


----------



## Halifax Tar (Thursday at 10:07)

Lumber said:


> That's really weird? I was definitely quoting Barrie Zwicker QV.



Maybe the interwebs just wants us to talk more lol


----------



## Good2Golf (Thursday at 10:45)

Navy_Pete said:


> The Online Streaming Act in the Senate
> 
> What does CRTC getting authority over streaming services got to do with dissident roundups?


One more tool in the box.  The amendment grants CRTC, a non-elected tribunal to update or introduce new regulation controlling conduct of broadcast material, including that currently exempted (as social media is…for now) from the bill’s current scope.  The Commission is also granted the ability to impose monetary fines for non-compliance with its regulations (note these are not the same as fines IAW legislation approved by Parliament).  Furthermore, the bill grants the Governor in Council the power to update the Commission’s regulatory powers without further legislation (think the firearms grab, etc.).

If anyone thinks that the PM (as GiC) is above playing fast and loose with the CRTC’s regulatory framework after C-11 amends the Communications Act, there is a level of naïveté in doing so that is questionable.

Consider the implication of the ‘system of systems’ that the current Government has fostered to deal with dissenting views.  Some may truly sleep comfortably at night believing in their heart of hearts that independent bodies dissociated from the government are truly that…independent, but again…naïveté enters the chat.

Food for thought…how to deal with dissension? Stealth influence….and “re-training.”









						Jordan Peterson: I will risk my licence to escape social media re-education
					

The college wants to send Jordan Peterson to a re-education camp — and this should concern everyone.




					nationalpost.com


----------



## QV (Thursday at 11:40)

Lumber said:


> If I didn't know your post history, I'd think you were joking.
> 
> Man, the tin hats have more numerous on this site.



My post history can be briefly summed up as:


POTUS 45 was unfairly and unlawfully targeted by FBI/DOJ and MSM on behalf of the Dems
The C19 vaccine mandates are wrong and the handling of the pandemic was terrible and political
Trudeau's governance is harmful to Canada (economic and climate change actions and policies, introduction of new laws, EA, etc)
MSM has failed in their duty to the people as the 4th estate


----------



## Jarnhamar (Thursday at 12:33)

Lumber said:


> Man, the tin hats have more numerous on this site.


There are some good examples of why people might suspect some sort of duplicity from the government.

Liberals say they're not trying to ban hunting rifles. - 30 Nov 2022​Trudeau says firearms bill will go after 'some' hunting guns that are 'too dangerous in other contexts'- 19 Dec 2022​


----------



## Halifax Tar (Thursday at 12:53)

Good2Golf said:


> Jordan Peterson: I will risk my licence to escape social media re-education
> 
> 
> The college wants to send Jordan Peterson to a re-education camp — and this should concern everyone.
> ...



I had heard something was going down with JP.  

Genuinely scary stuff.  We need to learn to stop punishing people for opposing political view points.


----------



## Navy_Pete (Thursday at 13:07)

Good2Golf said:


> One more tool in the box.  The amendment grants CRTC, a non-elected tribunal to update or introduce new regulation controlling conduct of broadcast material, including that currently exempted (as social media is…for now) from the bill’s current scope.  The Commission is also granted the ability to impose monetary fines for non-compliance with its regulations (note these are not the same as fines IAW legislation approved by Parliament).  Furthermore, the bill grants the Governor in Council the power to update the Commission’s regulatory powers without further legislation (think the firearms grab, etc.).
> 
> If anyone thinks that the PM (as GiC) is above playing fast and loose with the CRTC’s regulatory framework after C-11 amends the Communications Act, there is a level of naïveté in doing so that is questionable.
> 
> ...


All regulation and standards are maintained by 'non elected' bodies (ie public servants, or private entities like UL or NFPA). I'm not sure why you think this is new or unique, or that CRTC is the only one able to levy fines (Human Rights Tribunal, and the one for renters/landlord immediately comes to mind).

Similarly, how many elected officials are actually qualified to understand their portfolios? The intro packages and BNs to ministers are written at a 10 year old level for a reason. The work on regulations is done by public servants and other experts in the field, not politicians. At best, they give general direction on the goal.

That's a lot of Machhivenlian nonsense to me which is way more complicated than they just want to impose Canadian content on streaming services and other big internet entertainment sources to update our laws. I think that maybe makes sense conceptually at the 30k foot level but is extremely complex in the details and they'll make a hamfisted mess out of it.

I don't think they are anywhere near competent enough to do what you are saying, but also don't think they want to anyway, or even need to. Both sides are already pretty good at using social media to their advantage, and I don't think they want big algorithms screwing with their dissemination of 'talking points'.


----------



## Good2Golf (Thursday at 13:08)

Have a sound sleep tonight then.


----------



## Jarnhamar (Thursday at 13:52)

I think we should all agree on the importance of the government's ability to monitor and control Canadian online content with a view to ensuring only viewpoints and opinions that are deemed acceptable are tolerated.

We should not have to rely on offended American citizens faking being offended Canadian patients of Jordan Peterson to get him canceled. We should be able to cancel him ourselves if we don't like what he's saying.


----------



## Brad Sallows (Thursday at 14:36)

Lumber said:


> The traditional media (tv and radio) have regulations for their content, so why shouldn't a YouTuber?


"Those guys have it, so why shouldn't those others" isn't really a good foundation for legislation.  The case for any legislation is only satisfactory if it is made entirely on the merits : this is what is to be achieved, this is the way it will be achieved, these are obvious potential undesirable consequences, this is how we eliminate/mitigate the undesirable consequences.  Of course in practice, most legislators leave out the last two and sometimes leave out the second one (eg. there isn't much connection between gun control proposals in Canada and actually reducing violent gun crime).


----------



## Brad Sallows (Thursday at 14:40)

The obvious flaw with delegating restrictive authority is the existence of people misusing position to advance personal social and political aims.  It has happened; it will continue to happen.  The only prudent course of action is to never grant such authority.


----------



## Good2Golf (Thursday at 15:13)

Brad Sallows said:


> The obvious flaw with delegating restrictive authority is the existence of people misusing position to advance personal social and political aims.


By ‘misusing’ I assume you mean certain people with power inappropriately enabling others outside of the structure of direct accountability, so as to forward their select group’s restrictive values against the larger society while deliberately using such a construct to reduce the ability of the larger society to withstand and justifiably question the appropriateness of the manipulation of originally good faith granted power to represent? 😉


----------



## Brad Sallows (Thursday at 15:17)

Come the revolution, ...


----------



## Good2Golf (Thursday at 15:26)

…a matter of time


----------



## Edward Campbell (Thursday at 18:10)

The CRTC is fundamentally different, in too many important ways to enumerate - beginning with how and why commissioners are appointed, from the civil service. It has, ever since it was established in 1932 as the _Canadian Radio Broadcasting Commission (_which was both a content creator (it became the CBC in 1936) and the regulator of ALL broadcasting in Canada) been 95+% political.

Broadcast regulation remained in the CBC's hands until the Board of Broadcast Governors was established in 1958 because the CBC was deemed to be unable to fairly regulate private broadcasters without being in a conflict of interest.

The original intent of the BBG/CRTC (like the FCC in the USA) was to award over-the-air licences to competing interests. The engineers in DOT (Department of Transport) and later Industry Canada decided how many channels could be operated in any given area - city, town, region - but there needed to be some way to decide who got the licences ... for very good reasons the engineers said: "not our job."

There are only a few over-the-air licences being "completed" for in the 2000s because cable, the Internet, etc. (In fact, last time I looked the CBC had only 14 over-the-air TV stations in all of Canada - English and French. The CRTC could, very likely, be replaced by a small section within a government department ... but, like all bureaucracies it has ambitions and it is a useful political tool.

There might have been a valid reason to regulate content - remember Pierre Juneau and Canadian content rules in the 1960s? But I doubt there was ever any compelling need to regulate e.g. cable carriage; that was 100% political - governments (CPC and LPC) of the day paying off their friends.


----------



## kev994 (Thursday at 20:40)

They’re back, and they’re dumber than ever. This is golden, you can’t even make this stuff up. 

“Clark also said supporters must unite against another “evil we are up against” that is worse than child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.

Clark said there were “code words”  in music videos, on TV and spoken by politicians, including U.S. President Joe Biden and Vice-President Kamala Harris, that promote pedophilia. “Ice cream”, for instance, is a secret code for male prostitutes, while “pizza” really means little girls, said Clark, who said it was all explained in a video that he would post.”









						'Freedom Convoy' reunion in Winnipeg going ahead despite infighting, one organizer says
					

Posts on social media reveal conflict among key people who had been working together to organize a one-year reunion of the "Freedom Convoy".




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## brihard (Thursday at 21:04)

kev994 said:


> They’re back, and they’re dumber than ever. This is golden, you can’t even make this stuff up.
> 
> “Clark also said supporters must unite against another “evil we are up against” that is worse than child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.
> 
> ...



Meh, not even surprised.

But if you're gonna go full QAnon, might as well do it in Winnipeg in February.


----------



## kev994 (Thursday at 21:06)

brihard said:


> Meh, not even surprised.
> 
> But if you're gonna go full QAnon, might as well do it in Winnipeg in February.


Last I checked diesel doesn’t start very well in the cold so they’d better leave them running. And there are a couple ‘historically disadvantaged groups’ who like to hang out downtown and they like to steal cars for entertainment. A running vehicle is pretty easy to steal. This is going to be hilarious! I can’t wait! I’m gonna go get some storm chips


----------



## Good2Golf (Thursday at 21:52)

kev994 said:


> Last I checked diesel doesn’t start very well in the cold so they’d better leave them running. And there are a couple ‘historically disadvantaged groups’ who like to hang out downtown and they like to steal cars for entertainment. A running vehicle is pretty easy to steal. This is going to be hilarious! I can’t wait! I’m gonna go get some storm chips


Old school mechanical diesels maybe, but contemporary common-rail electronic diesels don’t even hiccup at -30° and below. 2700-3000bar (40,000-45,000psi!) injection pressures make glow plugs and long cranks a thing of the past.


----------



## Quirky (Thursday at 21:54)

Can you imagine an EV convoy? Ottawa would still be plugged with dead appliances…


----------



## Halifax Tar (Thursday at 21:56)

Good2Golf said:


> Old school mechanical diesels maybe, but contemporary common-rail electronic diesels don’t even hiccup at -30° and below. 2700-3000bar (40,000-45,000psi!) injection pressures make glow plugs and long cranks a thing of the past.



I was gonna say, I drive a 2020 Ford Diesel and I've never had an issue starting it up in the winter.

I think sounds better when it's cold lol


----------



## lenaitch (Thursday at 22:31)

brihard said:


> Meh, not even surprised.
> 
> But if you're gonna go full QAnon, might as well do it in Winnipeg in February.


Shows commitment.


Quirky said:


> Can you imagine an EV convoy? Ottawa would still be plugged with dead appliances…


If they would have even arrived yet.


----------



## kev994 (Thursday at 22:46)

Good2Golf said:


> Old school mechanical diesels maybe, but contemporary common-rail electronic diesels don’t even hiccup at -30° and below. 2700-3000bar (40,000-45,000psi!) injection pressures make glow plugs and long cranks a thing of the past.


Well that’s substantially less entertaining. At least their claims are some of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard so there’s some entertainment in that.


----------



## Good2Golf (Thursday at 22:48)

kev994 said:


> Well that’s substantially less entertaining. At least their claims are some of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard so there’s some entertainment in that.


That’s still entertaining, I’m sure.


----------



## dapaterson (Thursday at 22:49)

Summary of Convoy 2.0 (from Press Progress, which has a significant left tilt).

I enjoyed the geographical declaration that from Toronto to Winnipeg is just a few hours drive.









						Is the ‘Freedom Convoy Reunion’ in Winnipeg Cancelled? Or Is It Still Happening?
					

Here is everything we know about the confusing convoy to Winnipeg and how it spun out-of-control




					pressprogress.ca


----------



## FSTO (Thursday at 23:00)

dapaterson said:


> I enjoyed the geographical declaration that from Toronto to Winnipeg is just a few hours drive.


I wonder if that was the Torontonians complaining that the reunion wasn't going to be in Ottawa (5 not 2 hrs drive for them).


----------



## brihard (Thursday at 23:06)

dapaterson said:


> Summary of Convoy 2.0 (from Press Progress, which has a significant left tilt).
> 
> I enjoyed the geographical declaration that from Toronto to Winnipeg is just a few hours drive.
> 
> ...


Quite the ecosystem of interesting figures involved in this movement.


----------



## kev994 (Thursday at 23:10)

I can’t even tell what they’re trying to accomplish. Party? Fundraising for themselves?


----------



## brihard (Thursday at 23:35)

kev994 said:


> I can’t even tell what they’re trying to accomplish. Party? Fundraising for themselves?


If it’s anything like what I saw in February, it’s probably generalized grievances against the current government and larger notions of the world power structure. Some of it will be based on real stuff, some will be based on serious misconceptions or info that’s no longer current, and some appears to be increasing based on complete nutjobbery. 

It’s not a monolithic movement; there are various loose and overlapping affinity groups, and it seems like individual egos play a big role. There seems to be pretty frequent tension and infighting. And of course at the edges there’s overlap with some pretty concerning individuals and groups who are much less benign than most of the ‘freedom’ movement types are…


----------



## ArmyRick (Friday at 07:35)

Halifax Tar said:


> I had heard something was going down with JP.
> 
> Genuinely scary stuff.  We need to learn to stop punishing people for opposing political view points.


This is only going to boost JP popularity and fame. Keep or lose his license, he will gain even more of a larger following. Its a win for JP either way.


----------



## Halifax Tar (Friday at 07:58)

ArmyRick said:


> This is only going to boost JP popularity and fame. Keep or lose his license, he will gain even more of a larger following. Its a win for JP either way.



My understanding is he is not practicing anymore.  So you're probably right.


----------



## FSTO (Friday at 08:03)

Re: the popularity of invoking the Emergency Act amongst Canadians.

The occupiers were view by most Canadians as entitled cry babies (mostly white men) and having the government crack down on them was no big concern.

What will the feeling be if a future government decides the antics of a less privileged group requires emergency powers?

I still feel that the government over-reacted and had the tools at hand to deal with the occupation.


----------



## mariomike (Friday at 09:13)

dapaterson said:


> I enjoyed the geographical declaration that from Toronto to Winnipeg is just a few hours drive.



Won't be the same without the Metro Police horses.

I've seen them have a calming effect on " fired up " people.


----------



## Remius (Friday at 09:24)

FSTO said:


> Re: the popularity of invoking the Emergency Act amongst Canadians.
> 
> The occupiers were view by most Canadians as entitled cry babies (mostly white men) and having the government crack down on them was no big concern.
> 
> ...



Most polling data showed at the time and to this day that most Canadians were ok with it.  And while most remained entrenched in their original positions, there was an uptick in favour of it after the inquiry.   I’m also of the opinion that most Canadians don’t really understand it.  I mean, people still think it’s the « war measures act ».  

The feeling about using it again will depend on whether Roberta Paulsen gets killed again or not at the next one.  Hopefully she survives Winnipeg.


----------



## FSTO (Friday at 09:28)

My real question:

Was there an actual threat to Parliament? Didn't the HoC and Senate continue its business during the occupation? This idea that there was an actual threat to the workings of the government was a bit of a red herring IMO.


----------



## Remius (Friday at 09:33)

FSTO said:


> My real question:
> 
> Was there an actual threat to Parliament? Didn't the HoC and Senate continue its business during the occupation? This idea that there was an actual threat to the workings of the government was a bit of a red herring IMO.


It was all still mostly virtual I think. 

Not sure if that was brought up as a justification on their part during the inquiry though.


----------



## FSTO (Friday at 09:37)

Remius said:


> It was all still mostly virtual I think.
> 
> Not sure if that was brought up as a justification on their part during the inquiry though.


There were still MP's, Senators, and Civil Servants coming to and working in Parliament Hill. There was no threat of a physical take over of government by the occupiers.


----------



## Remius (Friday at 09:42)

FSTO said:


> There were still MP's, Senators, and Civil Servants coming to and working in Parliament Hill. There was no threat of a physical take over of government by the occupiers.


Like I said it was still mostly virtual.   So the workings of government was never really impacted.  And as I said, I’m not sure if that particular reason was used to justify the use of the act.


----------



## FSTO (Friday at 09:48)

Remius said:


> Like I said it was still mostly virtual.   So the workings of government was never really impacted.  And as I said, I’m not sure if that particular reason was used to justify the use of the act.


I never followed the inquiry close enough to see if that was brought up. But I see many commentators who say the government was close to being overthrown by the occupiers.


----------



## Remius (Friday at 10:02)

FSTO said:


> I never followed the inquiry close enough to see if that was brought up. But I see many commentators who say the government was close to being overthrown by the occupiers.


I watched some of it but didn’t see anything like that.

Most of the comments I saw were in relation to their MOU essentially calling for that.  But I’m not sure there was anything stating that the government was close to being overthrown.  Certainly not from any officials. 

If you have examples of those commentators that you’ve seen saying it was close to be overthrown, I’d appreciate it so I can make a more informed opinion.


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## RangerRay (Friday at 10:33)

My understanding was it was brought in because all levels of government and law enforcement were playing hot-potato with it and it made the country look like an international laughingstock. The Americans wanted the border crossings cleared and it sounded like some Ministers were scared of them. Not valid legislative reasons according to the EA, but ones accepted by most Canadians.


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## Brad Sallows (Friday at 13:09)

Government isn't "overthrown" until the "overthrowers" are issuing instructions which are being followed by the the civil service and complied with by the people.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (Friday at 13:22)

Brad Sallows said:


> Government isn't "overthrown" until the "overthrowers" are issuing instructions which are being followed by the the civil service and complied with by the people.


Don't you go taking Jan 6th away from them. ....some might need a complete new lifestyle.


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## QV (Friday at 16:41)

RangerRay said:


> My understanding was it was brought in because all levels of government and law enforcement were playing hot-potato with it and it made the country look like an international laughingstock. The Americans wanted the border crossings cleared and it sounded like some Ministers were scared of them. Not valid legislative reasons according to the EA, but ones accepted by most Canadians.


Accepted by uninformed Canadians, since the borders were cleared before the EA.


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## Quirky (Friday at 16:46)

QV said:


> Accepted by uninformed Canadians, since the borders were cleared before the EA.


Canadians listen to what CBC tells them, our national, self-proclaimed, trusted news source.


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## Good2Golf (Saturday at 19:09)

QV said:


> Accepted by uninformed Canadians, since the borders were cleared before the EA.


Windsor didn’t have its head up its 🍩


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## FSTO (Saturday at 19:33)

Remius said:


> I watched some of it but didn’t see anything like that.
> 
> Most of the comments I saw were in relation to their MOU essentially calling for that.  But I’m not sure there was anything stating that the government was close to being overthrown.  Certainly not from any officials.
> 
> If you have examples of those commentators that you’ve seen saying it was close to be overthrown, I’d appreciate it so I can make a more informed opinion.


Now that I re-read my post. I was wrong to say "close to overthrowing". The was no time that the occupiers were ever in the realm of threating the overthrow of the sitting government. (Even though the MOU stated a desire *"replace"* the government, that document was written by people who had no idea how a constitutional monarchy works)

The word* overthrow* was liberally used by all commentators opposed to the occupiers.









						Canada defends emergency action as way to stop ‘overthrow’
					

Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino says the movement is not driven by protest against Covid-19 measures.




					www.politico.com
				



Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino told a press conference Tuesday. “That is not what is driving this movement right now. What is driving this movement is a very small, organized group that is driven by an ideology to *overthrow* the government.”

Leaders of truck convoy protests sought to overthrow government, national security adviser says
Jody Thomas, a former deputy minster at the Department of National Defence who became Mr. Trudeau’s top national security adviser
“The occupation of Ottawa was dug in. They had supply chains. They had organization. They had funding coming in from across Canada but also other countries,” Ms. Thomas said. “The people who organized that protest – and there were several factions … there is no doubt – came to *overthrow *the government.”










						Canada’s NDP leader says trucker convoy aims to ‘overthrow’ gov’t
					

Jagmeet Singh calls for emergency debate in Canadian parliament over ongoing trucker ‘occupation’ of capital, Ottawa.




					www.aljazeera.com
				



New Democratic Party (NDP) leader Jagmeet Singh, Speaking to reporters on Monday morning, Singh said the convoy’s stated intent is to “*overthrow the government*”.

By liberally using the word "Overthrow" the government stoked the fears of people who should have known better that a rag-tag group of unorganized (which was born out by the inquiry) dissenters didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of overthrowing a local village council let alone the government of Canada.


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## brihard (Saturday at 19:51)

FSTO said:


> Now that I re-read my post. I was wrong to say "close to overthrowing". The was no time that the occupiers were ever in the realm of threating the overthrow of the sitting government. (Even though the MOU stated a desire *"replace"* the government, that document was written by people who had no idea how a constitutional monarchy works)
> 
> The word* overthrow* was liberally used by all commentators opposed to the occupiers.
> 
> ...


A bunch of them wanted it. They were never close to achieving it, nor can anyone credibly claim that they were.


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## FSTO (Saturday at 19:54)

brihard said:


> A bunch of them wanted it. They were never close to achieving it, nor can anyone credibly claim that they were.


Agree, and maybe instead of running about with their hair on fire, the authorities should have said to Canadians that at no time was their government in danger of being overthrown.


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## brihard (Saturday at 19:59)

FSTO said:


> Agree, and maybe instead of running about with their hair on fire, the authorities should have said to Canadians that at no time was their government in danger of being overthrown.


I don’t recall ever seeing that prospect being used to justify or defend any government or police action.


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## FSTO (Saturday at 20:09)

Okay, I feel that you and I are talking past each other. We both agree that at no time the government was going to be overthrown. If I'm not mistaken you are of the opinion that the authorities never raised the prospect of overthrow as a reason for the EA. I'm of the opinion that the authorities (specifically the Liberal and NDP parties) liberally used the term overthrow in their public communications to enhance the concern of fence sitters to agree to the use of the EA to get rid of the occupiers.

This could be case of people seeing/hearing what they want to see/hear.

Cheers


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## Remius (Saturday at 20:33)

FSTO said:


> Okay, I feel that you and I are talking past each other. We both agree that at no time the government was going to be overthrown. If I'm not mistaken you are of the opinion that the authorities never raised the prospect of overthrow as a reason for the EA. I'm of the opinion that the authorities (specifically the Liberal and NDP parties) liberally used the term overthrow in their public communications to enhance the concern of fence sitters to agree to the use of the EA to get rid of the occupiers.
> 
> This could be case of people seeing/hearing what they want to see/hear.
> 
> Cheers


Maybe the leaders of the convoy as well as the ones that decided to co-opt it should not have issued an MOU essentially stating that they wanted to remove the government.   It isn’t a case of just misunderstanding how a constitutional monarchy works it’s a case of of trying to remove a democratically elected government that they didn’t like.  They even wanted a seat in whatever coalition they were trying to propose.  

It was an anti government protest.  The fact that they are still planning more tells you this isn’t just about truckers, mandates or whatever. 

I agree that an overthrow was never even close.  Not sure anyone ever said that.   I disagree though if anyone thinks that wasn’t what the MOU’s original intent was about.  The reaction to it though saw them backtrack somewhat but by then they had already let that genie out of the bottle.


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## brihard (Saturday at 21:04)

FSTO said:


> I'm of the opinion that the authorities (specifically the Liberal and NDP parties) liberally used the term overthrow in their public communications to enhance the concern of fence sitters to agree to the use of the EA to get rid of the occupiers.



I don’t believe they ever did, but am open to the possibility that I’m wrong. However if a claim’s being made that they did, the onus is to provide evidence of that.

So are you able to point to anything to give grounds to that belief? Any instances where authorities presented ‘overthrow’, or anything analogous, as a serious, realistic, or credible threat? I feel that had they done so we would have heard or read about little else for at least a couple days. That would have been a pretty massive claim, and probably quickly and loudly ripped apart.


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## Brad Sallows (Saturday at 21:08)

brihard said:


> I don’t recall ever seeing that prospect being used to justify or defend any government or police action.


Part of justifying anything is massaging public opinion.  Politicians aren't above overstating threats to use fear to move public support in favour of whatever it is politicians want to do.


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## brihard (Saturday at 21:10)

Brad Sallows said:


> Part of justifying anything is massaging public opinion.  Politicians aren't above overstating threats to use fear to move public support in favour of whatever it is politicians want to do.


Ok, you’re included in my cordial invitation:



brihard said:


> So are you able to point to anything to give grounds to that belief? Any instances where authorities presented ‘overthrow’, or anything analogous, as a serious, realistic, or credible threat?


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## FSTO (Saturday at 21:13)

brihard said:


> I don’t believe they ever did


I just quoted a trio of news reports where Mendicino, Thomas, and Singh said the very words *Overthrow* the government.

I'm done with this thread. Its just circling the drain. I feel that the EA was not needed and bunch of you feel it was justified. So be it.


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## brihard (Saturday at 21:47)

FSTO said:


> I just quoted a trio of news reports where Mendicino, Thomas, and Singh said the very words *Overthrow* the government.
> 
> I'm done with this thread. Its just circling the drain. I feel that the EA was not needed and bunch of you feel it was justified. So be it.


It was accurately identified by a number of players as an _intent_ or _objective_ of a core group of organizers, as well as some who showed up. That’s not the same as anyone suggesting there was a realistic risk of that happening. I would say it’s fair to suggest that that desire on the part of quite a few, and intent on the part of a smaller number, did inform assessments of how likely it was they would simply leave or could be coaxed out.

Were there people there who wanted to overthrow the government? Of course; that MOU was published and received some support. They literally told us to our faces, as we faced off against them, that they wanted our help forcing our and replacing the government. But a relatively small fringe of people wanting something doesn’t make it a credible threat. Please note the way I worded it:



brihard said:


> as a serious, realistic, or credible threat?



I don’t see from your examples where ‘overthrow’ or anything like it was used inaccurately, or in the way I asked about.

Finally: I have not stated that I believe the EA was justified or necessary, nor am I saying that now. What I’ve said repeatedly in this thread is that I remain unconvinced, but that I’m waiting to read and consider the final report before I come to a firm opinion one way or the other. However, without being convinced it _was_ needed, I default to it _wasn’t_. The book simply isn’t closed yet for me.

(Minor edits for typos and clarity)


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## Remius (Saturday at 21:50)

FSTO said:


> I just quoted a trio of news reports where Mendicino, Thomas, and Singh said the very words *Overthrow* the government.
> 
> I'm done with this thread. Its just circling the drain. I feel that the EA was not needed and bunch of you feel it was justified. So be it.


I never said it was justified.  In fact quite the opposite.


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## Brad Sallows (Saturday at 23:24)

brihard said:


> Ok, you’re included in my cordial invitation:


Why?  My point is that politicians fear-monger, which covers a lot more ground than the single plot you've staked out for yourself.


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## QV (Sunday at 01:56)

ArmyRick said:


> This is only going to boost JP popularity and fame. Keep or lose his license, he will gain even more of a larger following. Its a win for JP either way.


Peterson has “escape velocity”, he won’t be negatively impacted by this financially. In fact, I think you’re right, he’ll gain in popularity. But this isn’t about him. It’s about sending a message to everyone else who doesn’t have the escape velocity Peterson does, and the message is this: if you go against the narrative we‘ll wreck you.


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## brihard (Sunday at 02:10)

Brad Sallows said:


> Why?  My point is that politicians fear-monger, which covers a lot more ground than the single plot you've staked out for yourself.



You chose to reply to me; I’m just staying with the topic I was actually on.


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## Jarnhamar (Sunday at 02:27)

There was never a credible threat of these people overthrowing the government.

Anyone using their hollow, non-credible threats to justify any sort of action or response seems silly to me.


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## Jarnhamar (Sunday at 02:36)

QV said:


> Peterson has “escape velocity”, he won’t be negatively impacted by this financially. In fact, I think you’re right, he’ll gain in popularity. But this isn’t about him. It’s about sending a message to everyone else who doesn’t have the escape velocity Peterson does, and the message is this: if you go against the narrative we‘ll wreck you.



The amount of outrage Peterson causes in his wake is hilarious. People act like any contradiction of what they feel is the truth is persecution against them.


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## Furniture (Sunday at 03:44)

QV said:


> Peterson has “escape velocity”, he won’t be negatively impacted by this financially. In fact, I think you’re right, he’ll gain in popularity. But this isn’t about him. It’s about sending a message to everyone else who doesn’t have the escape velocity Peterson does, and the message is this: if you go against the narrative we‘ll wreck you.


He's almost like J.K Rowling, too big to be cancelled... The rest of us though, we are easy pickings for the "mob", aided by bureaucrats interested in preserving themselves.


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## Eaglelord17 (Sunday at 05:10)

Jarnhamar said:


> The amount of outrage Peterson causes in his wake is hilarious. People act like any contradiction of what they feel is the truth is persecution against them.


The part that amazes me is his opinions by and large wouldn’t even cause a ounce of outrage 20 years ago. Not saying I agree with everything he says, but he certainly makes good points on many topics.


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## IKnowNothing (Sunday at 08:42)

Jarnhamar said:


> There was never a credible threat of these people overthrowing the govegovernment.


No credible threat of success, but a legitimate attempt. 

Whatever you think of the immediate government response, some of the organizers are getting off very lightly


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## PMedMoe (Sunday at 09:32)

Mods, can the JP discussion be split into a separate thread?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (Sunday at 10:15)

If the "threat of overthrowing the government" is the issue, then we seriously need explanations and for the press to do its job, which is to educate the public.

Earlier in this forum ,someone mentioned the removal of the "duly elected government" of Canada. That is an impossibility as we do not and have never in our history elected a government. The Government of Canada is headed by the King, and he appoints someone as Prime Minister and asks her/him to form a governement of the day, but the actual "Governement" composed of King, ministers and public servants is permanent - there must always be one. If we elected governements, Erin O'Toole would be PM because he garnered the most votes across Canada.

We only elect our Members of Parliament and their only powers against the governement are to (1) hold the various ministers accountable to Parliament (something in short supply and disappearing fast as political parties have usurped Parliaments powers) and (2) withdraw their confidence in a siting Prime Minister, causing the King to either replace him/her with someone else who does have the confidence of the lower chamber or call a general election.

To overthrow the Government of Canada, they had better be circling and manifesting around Rideau Hall ... or Buckingham Palace. But then what? Create a Republic? 

At most, they disrupted the operation of Parliament (and even that did not really happen as they never moved in to take control of Parliamnet hill or directly threaten any of the MP refusing to do their biding. Their anger was directed at the decisions of the siting PM and his ministers. They could call for his removal, but only the King or the House of Commons could effect such removal. Yet, even that would not be overthrowing governement. It would be continuation of the governemetn under a new PM and council of ministers.

So while asking for removal of the PM and his replacemetn by a group that included them, they were basically exercising their freedom of expression - loudly and annoyingly - in a situation where it was impossible for them to succeed.


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## Edward Campbell (Sunday at 10:36)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> If the "threat of overthrowing the government" is the issue, then we seriously need explanations and for the press to do its job, which is to educate the public.
> 
> Earlier in this forum ,someone mentioned the removal of the "duly elected government" of Canada. That is an impossibility as we do not and have never in our history elected a government. The Government of Canada is headed by the King, and he appoints someone as Prime Minister and asks her/him to form a governement of the day, but the actual "Governement" composed of King, ministers and public servants is permanent - there must always be one. If we elected governements, Erin O'Toole would be PM because he garnered the most votes across Canada.
> 
> ...


⬆️Please, _Please_, *Please*: EVERYONE read and understand this.⬆️


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## IKnowNothing (Sunday at 10:58)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> So while asking for removal of the PM and his replacemetn by a group that included them, they were basically exercising their freedom of expression - loudly and annoyingly - in a situation where it was impossible for them to succeed.


I'd say that "asking" and demanding under threat of "choking out"  a city are fundamentally different actions.

But honestly, the thing I can't get past is the hilarious irony and lack of self-awareness in a group of people trying to combat tyranny by attempting to extort their way into power, with the stated intent of wielding that power like a club to commit a ridiculously blatant and sweeping act of Federal over reach.


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## CBH99 (Sunday at 11:56)

QV said:


> Peterson has “escape velocity”, he won’t be negatively impacted by this financially. In fact, I think you’re right, he’ll gain in popularity. But this isn’t about him. It’s about sending a message to everyone else who doesn’t have the escape velocity Peterson does, and the message is this: if you go against the narrative we‘ll wreck you.


That’s the part the government is so bad at, and I don’t think it’s by design.

They tried to convince almost 40 million people of a narrative that, by and large, didn’t exist.  

Or they tried to convince 40 million people that only one narrative was possible before we even knew what we were really dealing with, and blatantly censored & shunned many scientists who had started to suggest theories different than the one the government was pushing.  

They did this in an era where those people could still be heard, and the attempts to silence them were easy to observe - which simply cast doubt on the government’s own agenda, rather than actually silence the people they were trying to.



Anytime a government tries to ‘cancel’ a public figure such as JP - all they will end up doing is giving that entity more popularity, and more credibility.  

Only those with an agenda make a deliberate effort to silence others who’s opinion differs, and I think people inherently/instinctively know that.

(Justin Trudeau can’t possibly hope to stand toe to toe in verbal communication against someone like JP.  I doubt any of us could either, but we aren’t the ones trying to cancel someone who is quite intelligent, articulate, and has a growing global following.)


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## CBH99 (Sunday at 13:30)

IKnowNothing said:


> I'd say that "asking" and demanding under threat of "choking out"  a city are fundamentally different actions.
> 
> But honestly, the thing I can't get past is the hilarious irony and lack of self-awareness in a group of people trying to combat tyranny by attempting to extort their way into power, with the stated intent of wielding that power like a club to commit a ridiculously blatant and sweeping act of Federal over reach.


I don’t think the stated intent was ever to oust the PM, or usurp the PM with their own person & use the powers inherent within the PMO to “blatantly swing like a club.”

I don’t even think they had a person in mind to take over that position, had that even been their intent.



I won’t wade into this too far, because in national level situations like this I’m sure there’s always something I’m missing. 

But the intent was to protest what the entire country felt was blatant federal over-reach, in a manner that the federal government could not ignore.  

People descended upon Ottawa from all directions, from the Maritimes to the Prairies.  

They set up shop in Ottawa not to disrupt the lives of normal, everyday Canadians - although that inevitably did happen.  

They set up shop so the politicians in power _could not_ ignore them, and if nothing else, HAD to acknowledge that the general public was tired of not being listened to…

The system is supposed to work for the people, the people aren’t supposed to be slaves to the system.  


Never in Canadian history have thousands of people descended upon the nation’s capital to demonstrate in no uncertain terms their extreme disapproval of how a PM was handling a situation.  

Never in Canadian history has that event coincided with tens of thousands participating in their own ‘freedom convoy support drives’ around their own cities, or set up protests at the borders.  



People keep saying that Trudeau has ‘divided Canadians’.  I disagree.

Canadians have always been divided, it’s bound to happen when we have a country so geographically and culturally vast.  

The political needs of people who live in the Maritimes _will_ be different than people who live in the Prairies, and those _will_ be different than those who lives in southern Ontario.  (Don’t think I even have to mention the NWT, Nunavut, etc)

What Trudeau did is actually the opposite.  

He united the country in a way that no other PM could possibly hope to mimic - he convinced Canadians from all over the country to unite & converge on Ottawa under a banner of protesting the disgusting & dangerous direction the PMO has consistently tried to steer us down.

Canadians tend to be a pretty apathetic bunch when it comes to their politics.  To convince Canadians to get off their butts was impressive, but to convince them to drive across such a vast landmass & unite in one place _for weeks_ …  that isn’t what dividing Canadians looks like.  

That’s what it looks like when an entire country see’s a bullshit narrative, see’s the puppet strings behind C-11 being introduced, hears phrases like ‘mandatory vaccinations’, see’s the PM’s true intentions behind his words, and collectively says “Oh I don’t think so, eh!”



In the end, I don’t think you have to worry too much about a bunch of pissed off Canadians converging into downtown Ottawa to honk their horns & tell _their elected politicians_ to go pound sand.

I think you _do_ have to worry about those same politicians when they introduce bills like C-11, or add a bunch of amendments at the last minute to C-21 in the hopes it’ll be passed without proper review.  

A government that wants to censor what information you can access, and wants to disarm you simultaneously, is up to something that you should probably be protesting…


My 0.02


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## Navy_Pete (Sunday at 13:53)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The part that amazes me is his opinions by and large wouldn’t even cause a ounce of outrage 20 years ago. Not saying I agree with everything he says, but he certainly makes good points on many topics.


Most of his opinions are even new (and he points this out himself); they are largely just reframed versions of the stoic philosophy from 2400 years ago.

I read his stuff to see what the controversy was and don't really get it


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## Colin Parkinson (Sunday at 14:41)

Navy_Pete said:


> Most of his opinions are even new (and he points this out himself); they are largely just reframed versions of the stoic philosophy from 2400 years ago.
> 
> I read his stuff to see what the controversy was and don't really get it


Asking people to clean their own rooms first is the first step in self-responsibility and begins the journey away from victimhood and without that, what control does the Progressive Left have on people?


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## Good2Golf (Sunday at 15:02)

CBH99 said:


> The system is supposed to work for the people, the people aren’t supposed to be slaves to the system.


…neither slave to, nor abused by…


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## IKnowNothing (Sunday at 15:03)

CBH99 said:


> I don’t think the stated intent was ever to oust the PM, or usurp the PM with their own person & use the powers inherent within the PMO to “blatantly swing like a club.”
> 
> I don’t even think they had a person in mind to take over that position, had that even been their intent.


Not all. 

But the Bauder/MOU faction explicitly called for their installation on a ruling council (actually called a committee) with the senate and GG, and that said ruling council would unilaterally enforce their (MOU faction's) pseudo legal interpretations of everything regarding Covid measures across all levels of elected government -Federal, Provincial, Municipal. 

They tried to force the senate/GG to enable them to dictate to all levels of elected government in the country, as well as the judiciary.  

The result of a successfully enacted MOU would have been orders of magnitude more tyrannical than anything the Federal government did related to Covid.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (Sunday at 15:25)

IKnowNothing said:


> Not all.
> 
> But the Bauder/MOU faction explicitly called for their installation on a ruling council (actually called a committee) with the senate and GG, and that said ruling council would unilaterally enforce their (MOU faction's) pseudo legal interpretations of everything regarding Covid measures across all levels of elected government -Federal, Provincial, Municipal.
> 
> ...


And the document was worth about as much as when I say that "I should be God"......


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