# Civilian Air Traffic Controllers in War Time



## LeonTheNeon (18 Oct 2006)

I did a search here and at http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca and didn't find an answer.

My friend is a former civilian ATC.  He says that he was told that in times of war civilian ATCs are appointed to the rank of Captain.

Question #1:  Is this true?

Question #2: If true clearly the intent would be so that they can order military aircraft around.  

#2a: If it is true then with respect to a lawful commands/orders, the NDA, etc, what level of lawful authority would the ATC have?  Could they order a Corporal to move a plane from point A to point B, if for some reason it needed to be done for air traffic reasons?  If the Corporal disobeys do they face charges under the Code of Service Discipline?  Does it make a difference whether the Corporal is trained to move/fly the aircraft or not?  

#2b: Can they give a command outside the realm of air traffic control, e.g. "Private, I want you to do 20 pushups"?

Question #3: If true, are they obliged under the NDA to follow orders from a superior officer?  Can a Major go the ATC and order them to take a rifle and man a trench?


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## George Wallace (18 Oct 2006)

LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> I did a search here and at http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca and didn't find an answer.
> 
> My friend is a former civilian ATC.  He says that he was told that in times of war civilian ATCs are appointed to the rank of Captain.
> 
> Question #1:  Is this true?


Hypothetically, I suppose in a really extreme emergency it could be true.  In reality, I think he was puffing up his chest and just pulling your leg.



			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> Question #2: If true clearly the intent would be so that they can order military aircraft around.


That would seem to be the intent.



			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> #2a: If it is true then with respect to a lawful commands/orders, the NDA, etc, what level of lawful authority would the ATC have?


The level of lawful authority appropriate to that position.  





			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> Could they order a Corporal to move a plane from point A to point B, if for some reason it needed to be done for air traffic reasons?


If that Corporal were by chance flying that aircraft within the airspace under his control, the answer would be yes.  





			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> If the Corporal disobeys do they face charges under the Code of Service Discipline?


I suppose he would.  





			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> Does it make a difference whether the Corporal is trained to move/fly the aircraft or not?


If that Corporal were flying that aircraft, I would hope that he was trained to do so.  



			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> #2b: Can they give a command outside the realm of air traffic control, e.g. "Private, I want you to do 20 pushups"?


It would depend on the circumstances, but in 99.99999% of the time -No.



			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> Question #3: If true, are they obliged under the NDA to follow orders from a superior officer?


Yes.  





			
				LeonTheNeon said:
			
		

> Can a Major go the ATC and order them to take a rifle and man a trench?


Under most circumstances - No.  If there were no requirement for them to be in the Tower, and the Base was being overrun by massed hordes of Enemy, then - Yes.




Where do you come up with these questions?


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## LeonTheNeon (18 Oct 2006)

Thanks for the reply George!

Actually, we were talking about the case Battleaxe is bringing before the HRC.  Somehow we got onto the intent of the CF to have an organization which is in line with Canadian values, rather then having a distinct set of values.  That lead to what should a CF member do if given an order which contradicts those values (e.g. ordered to shoot an unarmed civilian).  That lead to my explanation to him of a lawful order/command and lawful authority.  That lead to him remembering being told in ATC training that in war time a civilian ATC was appointed the rank of Captain.  And that got us to thinking (definitely a dangerous pastime) that if true what does it mean as per the questions above and that lead to here. 

I don't think he was puffing his chest, he isn't the type, although it is entirely possible he was misremembering what was told to him tangentially in a course many years ago.


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## Garry (18 Oct 2006)

Howdy,

Short answer: No.

Long answer:

There is a role for Civ ATC in a wartime scenario. It is _mostly_ concerned with denying the enemy the use of navigational aids. 

The idea was that in pre-gps/intertial nav days if the enemy wasn't able to use ground based radio beacons it would make his job of navigating to targets tougher.

It also gave those same navaids a better shot at working after the strike 

There are other things ATC does, but in all honesty they're pretty boring to those outside the trade (though the subject of hours of debate inside the trade!) (pretty exciting bunch)

Cheers


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## LeonTheNeon (18 Oct 2006)

Thanks for the additional info Garry!


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## Zoomie (18 Oct 2006)

The CF has its own Air Traffic Controllers (AEC is the trade).

Captain's don't worry about a Corporal disobeying his orders - especially in terms of aviation.  In fact, a Corporal gives orders to Captains and Majors.  Sometimes a Captain orders around a Major.  In some occasions there have even been Lt's that give orders to Lt.Col's.  Confused yet?

As a pilot, I am inclined to follow the direction of ATC.  If I decide to not follow his direction and inform him of such, it is expected that ATC will provide me with alternate directions.  The pilot is ultimately in charge of where his aircraft is piloted, not ATC.  Even if the controller was a Major, I am not obliged to follow his directions if they are deemed unsafe.  The NDA does not come into play in matters of aviation.

Just the other day I was flying through a controlled airspace and would have over-run and crashed into a Cessna 172.  The tower controller was simply bad and not keeping a grasp on his airspace.  We elected to make our own course correction and altitude deviation and then we informed ATC.  It would have been in my right to report that controller to Nav Canada.  This was not a military control zone.


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## Garry (19 Oct 2006)

Hey Zoomie,

Love to hear more about this.

Were you in controlled airspace? If so, what classification?

Flight plan? if so, IFR or VFR?

Altitude?

Wx conditions?

Altitude?

Anything else??- stage of flight (vectors, etc)

I'm a big believer that reporting occurrences and/or abnormalities isn't necessarily a bad thing, as the one involved may not have realised the problem (and therefore learned from it) ...same goes for the rest of us, reporting does save lives.

Thanks- Garry


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## Zoomie (19 Oct 2006)

Garry - incoming PM


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## Garry (19 Oct 2006)

Zoomie,

back at ya!

Garry


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## yfz450_girl (20 Oct 2006)

In wartime ESCAT would be implemented, just like we saw on 9/11, meaning all civilian a/c would be grounded, and WATPL would be put into effect.  Next to nothing would be flying except for mil a/c and targets.  Mil ATC/AWC would be controlling, and in this situation, if for whatever reason civ ATC had control over a lower priority Civ a/c it would most likely be the military telling them to move their a/c as need be. Trust me, civilian ATCers, for the most part, do not want to control mil a/c that are on a mission if its going to deviate from any flight plan.


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