# Robocall et al issue - Fed 2011 election



## Kalatzi (26 Feb 2012)

This could be one of the best things that ever happened to Canadian Politics. 

I say that without a trace of sarcasm. 

Though I have my own opinions, I am very interested in what I hope will be a meticulous investigative process. 

I caught Uncle Bob giving his opnion  on video. 

Hopefully it will inspire more of us to get involved in the democratic process.


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## Kalatzi (26 Feb 2012)

I may as well clarify the last line. 

I hope that this issue generates more interest in the democratic process


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## Remius (27 Feb 2012)

How can this be the best thing to happen in politics?  If true it is a gross indiscretion and violation of the democratic process.  If anything it is the worst thing that can happen in a democracy.

I get your last line though.  It is unfortujnate that it would take something like this to get people interested but that's the nature of the beast.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Feb 2012)

Some of the latest on this in case you haven't seen/heard/read (be careful about riding numbers - even _one_ is too many, but I've heard 4 or 5 total numbers over the weekend):


> The Conservative Party does not need to look into "robocalls" made during the last federal election any further, Defence Minister Peter MacKay says.
> 
> "It's certainly not something our party condones," MacKay said Sunday of the fraudulent calls to voters. "It's inappropriate behaviour to say the least."
> 
> But he told CBC News in New Glasgow, N.S., that he believes the calls directing people to wrong or non-existent polling places were isolated incidents ....


CBC.ca, 27 Feb 12



> A Conservative parliamentary staffer who worked on the Tory election team in Guelph, Ont., has reportedly left his post amid an Elections Canada investigation into fraudulent "robocalls" sent out during last year's federal campaign.
> 
> According to Huffington Post Canada, Michael Sona - assistant to Conservative MP Eve Adams and communications director for Guelph Conservative candidate Marty Burke during last year's federal election campaign - was fired. The CBC and CTV, however, reported that Sona resigned from this position.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 25 Feb 12



> The number of ridings that received alleged illegal voter-suppression calls in the last federal election is greater than previously thought, according to opposition MPs.
> 
> NDP MP Pat Martin said Sunday that he knows of 34 ridings that received calls advising people that their voting station had changed, and that number is growing every day.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 26 Feb 12


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## FSTO (27 Feb 2012)

For a group that is supposed to be the master political operators, this is certainly amature hour if these allegations are true.

Very high risk for minimal returns
They used a service with known ties to conservative members (PM and other high ranking western MP's)

I have a feeling that there are other groups involved.


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## Kalatzi (27 Feb 2012)

"How can this be the best thing to happen in politics?  If true it is a gross indiscretion and violation of the democratic process.  If anything it is the worst thing that can happen in a democracy."

True. It will also likeley generate a useful exercise/debate as to how to best safeguard democracy


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## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2012)

Yep, it was definitely phone calls and not the Liberal party's complete lack of relevance or direction that made them lose all those seats....


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## estoguy (27 Feb 2012)

Some of the ridings also didn't involve major Conservative races.

Read an interesting opinion on the weekend suggesting that it was the Liberals behind it, which in a way makes sense.  The Conservatives were firmly in the driver's seat during the election, so something like this as posted above would have been minimal gain for a lot of risk.

Some in the Liberal ranks (namely Uncle Bob) could see it coming and hatched this little scheme.  Since the companies involved had ties to the Conservatives, it would be the perfect way to generate controversy.  

An interesting theory, which may hold more water than it seems.

Just some food for thought...


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## Kalatzi (27 Feb 2012)

It seems it ws Andrey Coyne at the Post Media group - that broke the sotory. Kudos to them. 

A good initial piece in the globe here - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/voter-suppression-scandal-will-be-a-test-of-harpers-leadership/article2350684/

This might blow over fairly quick. 

Ibbotsen makes a good point when he menetions that making things difficult for your opponents supporters is NOT Illegal. It is done quyite a bit in the US. 

Purporting to be with Elections Canada IS however. 

Like him or Loathe him, I tend to the later, PM Harper is one of the sharpest political street fighters thiis country has produced. 

I find it  very hard to believe that he would knowingly condone misrepresentaion of Elections Canada by staff.


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## Old Sweat (27 Feb 2012)

It has been my experience as someone who became politically active after my retirement, that this sort of thing goes on all the time. It also is done by all parties, or at least their workers, the majority of whom are unpaid volunteers. A lot of it is just rumour as well. I guess that enthusiasm trumps morality when politics is concerned.


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## Rifleman62 (27 Feb 2012)

Lets see. When was the last election? May 2011.  Ten months later, in a matter of days there are suddenly all these reports, reports that true to form, are pointing the finger directly at the Conservatives. And of course, it had to be someone very high up that directed this action. Who would that be? It's Mr. Harper. He is a micro manager. He controls everything.

Nixon-est, says Bobby sunshine. What no break in or taping?

Lets play "What will the media say?"


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## The Bread Guy (27 Feb 2012)

A bit more, from the front end of a call chain (usual caveats re:  single sourcing and anonymous sourcing)....


> Staff at a Thunder Bay call centre tasked with making scripted calls claiming to be on behalf of the Conservative Party about voting locations during the 2011 federal election knew they were giving out incorrect information, say former employees.
> 
> “We would call these (voters) and they would say ‘we went there and that’s not a real place,’” said a woman, who worked for Responsive Marketing Group Inc. as a call operator, and asked not to be named.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 27 Feb 12


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## Remius (27 Feb 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Yep, it was definitely phone calls and not the Liberal party's complete lack of relevance or direction that made them lose all those seats....



Irrelevant.  Election fraud is election fraud regardless of how the vote would have gone.


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## Sythen (27 Feb 2012)

May or may not be related, but in the run up to the election, my gf here in Ottawa got at least 3 calls from someone claiming to be a representative on the CPC, and telling her to make sure to vote for a certain candidate (can't remember the names of them right now) but the caller was telling her the Liberal candidate was the Conservative one.. I have no evidence at all aside from what my gf told me at the time, but the caller was very adamant that the Liberal candidate was the Conservative one.. When I heard about this robo-call thing, it reminded me of it. I would definitely like to see a full investigation into this, with no stone unturned.


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## Remius (27 Feb 2012)

Your GF certainly has the right to file a complaint with Elections Canada.  If she has a valid complaint backed up with evidence (like phone records) hopefully they would investigate. 

However this investigation is about more than just dirty tricks.  People were told to go to the wrong polling stations by people pretending to be Election's Canada officials.  I don't care how people vote, but when you impede their right to exercise that vote then there is a serious problem.


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## Sythen (27 Feb 2012)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Your GF certainly has the right to file a complaint with Elections Canada.  If she has a valid complaint backed up with evidence (like phone records) hopefully they would investigate.
> 
> However this investigation is about more than just dirty tricks.  People were told to go to the wrong polling stations by people pretending to be Election's Canada officials.  I don't care how people vote, but when you impede their right to exercise that vote then there is a serious problem.



I doubt she could even remember what day the call happened on.. Just an anecdote I guess.. And I am definitely not disagreeing, nor trying to say, "But the Liberals did this!".. 100% you are correct.


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## Remius (27 Feb 2012)

And you do bring up a point about all parties playing dirty tricks.  It's not easy to stomach watching the very same people who may have their hands dirty as well acting all offended and self righteous.

I really hope they get to the bottom of this one way or the other.  To be honest I really hope that it was a rogue element.  And not because it gets anyone out of trouble or vindicates the CPC.   Rather that this could happen in Canada and that people would stoop to that level in an organised concerted way.


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## Edward Campbell (27 Feb 2012)

Further to what Old Sweat said, above, Mike Duffy says that a) all parties factions do it, and b) it's not necessarily the parties, _per se_, it may be "third parties."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/mike-duffy-points-finger-at-third-parties-amid-election-mischief-furor/article2351305/
Mike Duffy points finger at ‘third parties’ amid election-mischief furor

"Conservative Senator Mike Duffy says “third parties” – and not necessarily any of the political parties – could be behind election “robo-call” scandal ... “People have to remember that it’s not just political parties that are operating during a federal election campaign,” he added. “Under the law, we have all kinds of interested third parties that are operating in election campaigns, and I think that’s where we have to be careful. People are throwing stones but there have been third parties that have been attacking Conservatives as well as Liberals and New Democrats.”"

More on link


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Feb 2012)

One election day my office phone started ringing constantly. Turns out that Election Canada had published my phone number as the place to call to find out where you should vote, it was to late to correct the mistake, so my assistant and I spent the whole day helping people find their polling station, it was government related work anyways and helping people vote was fun. 
I scrutinized last election, while I found the information Elections Canada put out was quite good, the amount of deviations from the process at the 4 locations I was covering was significant. I know in my riding the Liberal and NDP had significant volunteer presence at each poll, so I can’t see them missing any hanky panky at that level.

I agree with most posters here, I don’t see a senior party figure involved in this, the risk is to high for to little return. I also find it odd that it’s taken this long to surface. If someone from any party stepped over the line, then throw the book at them.


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## Remius (27 Feb 2012)

And, as Mr. Campbell pointed out, if any third parties are involved, they as well should have the book thrown at them.


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## brihard (27 Feb 2012)

I don't really care who was involved in this for the sake of slinging mud- it's not an issue I'll politicize. I do, however, hope that the investigation is lengthy and thorough, and that the book is absolutely thrown at anyone who was directly involved or who can be shown to have known about this.

You DO NOT fuck with the integrity of our democracy. This is a direct attack on our democratic freedoms out of callous political desire. This can carry up to five years in prison, and I hope to see exactly that sentence meted out.

If it is eventually found that any of the parties were complicit in this, it will be a long time indeed (and a full change in leadership) before I would consider voting for that party again.


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## GAP (27 Feb 2012)

> If it is eventually found that any of the parties were complicit in this, it will be a long time indeed (and a full change in leadership) before I would consider voting for that party again.



Guess you won't be voting. They all do it, some are better at it than others, some have more practise......


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## brihard (27 Feb 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Guess you won't be voting. They all do it, some are better at it than others, some have more practise......



We shall see. I do not accept 'they all do it' as a valid excuse for attacking the integrity of our electoral system. That's always been one of the single strongest parts of our democracy.

I also differentiate between the actions of an individual staffer or volunteer who has a rush of shit to the brain, and a concerted effort on a national level that can only be organized as a party policy. The current situation appears much closer to the latter.


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## Remius (27 Feb 2012)

And it seems to beyond what we consider to be "normal" dirty tricks politics.


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## FSTO (27 Feb 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> We shall see. I do not accept 'they all do it' as a valid excuse for attacking the integrity of our electoral system. That's always been one of the single strongest parts of our democracy.
> 
> I also differentiate between the actions of an individual staffer or volunteer who has a rush of crap to the brain, and a concerted effort on a national level that can only be organized as a party policy. The current situation appears much closer to the latter.



So here's the scenario in CPC HQ "Hey Fred how are you coming with organizing our "OP DENY"? 
Well Frank I have taped announcements in French and English telling people that polling stations have moved to malls in these cities. I have also made tapes of people loudly denouncing Lib and NDP candidates. 
So Fred how are we going to distribute these announcements?
Well Frank since we already have a contract with this auto-calling service in Edmonton we'll use them! 
That's a great idea Fred, nobody would ever figure out it was us doing the calls right? :facepalm:


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## brihard (27 Feb 2012)

FSTO said:
			
		

> So here's the scenario in CPC HQ "Hey Fred how are you coming with organizing our "OP DENY"?
> Well Frank I have taped announcements in French and English telling people that polling stations have moved to malls in these cities. I have also made tapes of people loudly denouncing Lib and NDP candidates.
> So Fred how are we going to distribute these announcements?
> Well Frank since we already have a contract with this auto-calling service in Edmonton we'll use them!
> That's a great idea Fred, nobody would ever figure out it was us doing the calls right? :facepalm:



Note that I've not said a word about the Conservatives. It could as easily be a 'false flag' by one of the opposition parties. Or by an aligned organization that has no official party ties. I will wait the results of the investigation before I start getting specific on blame.

What I AM certain of is that something is extremely rotten in the kingdom of Denmark, that somewhere at the root of this there are people guilty of electoral and potentially criminal offences, and that for justice to be seen to be done the book must be thrown on this.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Feb 2012)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Well Frank since we already have a contract with this auto-calling service in Edmonton we'll use them!
> That's a great idea Fred, nobody would ever figure out it was us doing the calls right? :facepalm:




You know people can be that dumb.


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## Robert0288 (27 Feb 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> You know people can be that dumb.



Yes, but only if they decided to pay out of pocket themselves.  As with any organization, as soon as you start looking to spend money there is going to be a paper trail and people are going to hear about it especially if the organization is a political party.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Feb 2012)

Me? I'm going to wait until all the evidence is in, the investigation is complete and the whole process scrutinized to ensure integrity.

Then I'll decide what to think about this whole thing.

Up to that point, people are just huffing and puffing, calling for heads, shouting in righteous indignation, pointing fingers at anyone and everyone or just rolling in a ball doing their best imitation of Eeyore, at the death of democracy. None of those accomplish a damn thing, except to muddy the whole issue beyond recognition and detract from the daily business of government.

Chill out and wait for something concrete.


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## OldSolduer (27 Feb 2012)

A lot of pots are calling the kettle black.


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## Edward Campbell (27 Feb 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Me? I'm going to wait until all the evidence is in, the investigation is complete and the whole process scrutinized to ensure integrity.
> 
> Then I'll decide what to think about this whole thing.
> 
> ...



 :goodpost:  and  :+1:


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## dapaterson (27 Feb 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :goodpost:  and  :+1:



[out-pedanting a member of The RCR]

...and in a first on army.ca, Mr Campbell made a spelling mistake.  It's Dit*T*o, not Dito.

[/out-pedanting a member of The RCR]


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## Edward Campbell (27 Feb 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> [out-pedanting a member of The RCR]
> 
> ...and in a first on army.ca, Mr Campbell made a spelling mistake.  It's Dit*T*o, not Dito.
> 
> [/out-pedanting a member of The RCR]




 :facepalm:


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## Rifleman62 (27 Feb 2012)

Media is reporting: "The House of Commons unanimously passed a motion Monday that asks all MPs to help the RCMP and Elections Canada investigate allegations of "robocalls" aimed at discouraging voters in the last election".

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Politics/20120227/robocalls-battle-house-of-commnos-120227/#ixzz1ndT2EWfc


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## The Bread Guy (27 Feb 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> [out-pedanting a member of The RCR]
> 
> ...and in a first on army.ca, Mr Campbell made a spelling mistake.  It's Dit*T*o, not Dito.
> 
> [/out-pedanting a member of The RCR]


To be fair to E.R.C., hate the smiley, not the poster.....


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

From RecceGuy "  people are just huffing and puffing, calling for heads, shouting in righteous indignation, pointing fingers at anyone and everyone or just rolling in a ball doing their best imitation of Eeyore, at the death of democracy. ... Except to muddy the business of Government ..."  Please forgive me if'f I've got the text a bit wrong

<Sarcasm >- "Pay no attention to that Canary - What dolt would drag an innocent canary into a coal mine anyway?</sarcasm>


Considering this is Canada, and our heritage from the United Kingdom  it is is extremeley unlikely that the sky is in fact falling. 


To quote one of our American Cousins - ""Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884), abolitionist, orator and columnist for The Liberator"


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

The quote should have been ". None of those accomplish a damn thing, except to muddy the whole issue beyond recognition and detract from the daily business of government."

I suggest that tha canary anology stands. This is SHOULD not be business as usual. 

I note again, that it was a Post Media reporter that appears to have broke3n the story - so much for liberal bias. 

off soapbox


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## armyvern (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> The quote should have been ". None of those accomplish a damn thing, except to muddy the whole issue beyond recognition and detract from the daily business of government."
> 
> I suggest that tha canary anology stands. This is SHOULD not be business as usual.
> 
> ...



It SHOULD be business as usual until, when and IF, it is determined that this latest brouhaha was even perpetrated by GOVERNMENT vice an outside party of lobbyists etc.

Or have you already beaten the experts and determined that it was indeed a government or party sanctioned robocall? I'll just refer to you as Robocop if that's the case.  :


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

"I'll just refer to you as Robocop if that's the case.  "

<sarcasm>The  Robocop is reporting for duty ... </sarcasm>

Let's try a 180 turn on the outcome ...

Lets say that the liberals had got into power  ,,. and these where  the issues

or the NDP or the whoever .... 

If this was just Canda I might not be so concerned ...

<sarcasm> The Robocop wishes to report that he is much prefeable to The ED209"


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## armyvern (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> "I'll just refer to you as Robocop if that's the case.  "
> 
> <sarcasm>The  Robocop is reporting for duty ... </sarcasm>
> 
> ...



With that, I'll take it that you have indeed already fully determined the who, what, where, why, and when of this. Good on 'ya. Remind me to have you disqualified from sitting on any jury I may find myself relying upon to determine guilt and/or my innocence.


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## a_majoor (28 Feb 2012)

There do seem to be lots of unknowns with this story, a full investigation is needed (and not the sort the Media likes to do):

http://diogenesborealis.blogspot.com/2012/02/something-doesnt-make-sense-in-robocall.html



> *Something doesn't make sense in the robocall "scandal"*
> 
> There's something fishy about the voter fraud "scandal" that bothers me. The Toronto Star reported today that former employees of a Thunder Bay call centre have come forward claiming that they were hired to call voters in several ridings and deliberately misdirect them to non-existent polling stations. Here's part of the Star's story:
> 
> ...


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

with that I'm truly sorry. 

Let me be clear:

This is the first modern election that this SEEMS to have hapened in. 

I Suggest that it is an all our best intesrests that due process be seen to be done.

I challenge you to tell me that voter supprssion tactics are not used in the states.

I say again that I do not fell that this is busineess as usual.

I agree that other parties may be involved. 

Dirty tricks are not ethical

Purporting to represnt oneself as iElections Canada is Illegal

The majoirty of cooment on this thread has been let's see.

Likely free agents caring this out

I say again - I agree. 

Business as usual - NO - let's get this sorted out, for everyone's sake

As many have noted, and I sincerly wish, this is a tempest in tepaot. 

Hopefully a useful one.


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## armyvern (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> with that I'm truly sorry.
> 
> Let me be clear:
> 
> ...



I see now where you were coming from. I believe that Recceguy, myself, and the others are referring to "business as usual in Parliament" needs to go on without the wishwash of tossing accusations such as is occuring there right now due to this. 

By all means, investigate and get to the bottom of it, through the law and those proper forums for conducting investigations. 

If and when those findings show that any party or elected individual had a hand in or knowledge of said activity, then let the hammer fall where it may. Until that investigation is done though, our elected officials should get to damn work doing real work. That's all we're saying.


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

Thank you 

Its easy to let feelings run high.  On so many things. 

This one is one of the most important


Best wishes to all


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> Thank you
> 
> Its easy to let feelings run high.  On so many things.
> 
> ...



It's only one of the most important to some, like yourself.

Especially those that still can't come to grips with a Tory majority and will leave no rock unturned in their quest for PM Harper's, supposed, hidden agenda.

More important than Airbus? More important than Adscam?

No. These sort of scandals plague every government, especially when you have a bloodthirsty, minority Opposition.

This latest has no where in government now that the accusations have been made.

It's time for everyone to shut up and let the outside investigators do their job.

There is more important House business, other that listening to a bunch of MP's whinge and whine about what the Government *"MIGHT"* have done. All the time without proof of any sort whatsoever.

Anything said by these MP's now is doing nothing but detracting from other agenda items that deserve the House's full attention.

Shut up and let the investigation be properly conducted by the investigators.

The story only has legs because of the press and people like yourself.

If you want an avian analogy, instead of canaries in the mine, I suggest you go read the story of Chicken Little.

Feel free to continue your handwringing.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Feb 2012)

Here's a motion that _everyone_ agreed to yesterday in the House of Commons (also in Journal, attached):





> By unanimous consent, it was resolved, — That this House call on all Members to provide Elections Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) with any and all information they have on voter suppression and illegal phoning during the last election; offer its full support to both the Commissioner of Canada Elections and the RCMP in their investigations into these despicable practices; and, call on all parties to immediately hand over any and all documents requested or required by the authorities to assist in their investigation.


Agree with those worrying this could be big, but _also_ agree with those saying "let's get on with governing the country while the investigators investigate" - there ARE other fish to fry here.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Feb 2012)

And this, the _project_ discussed in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, is the "business" with which parliament ought to be dealing:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/voters-primed-and-ready-for-deep-tory-spending-cuts-poll-finds/article2352039/


> Voters ‘primed and ready’ for deep Tory spending cuts, poll finds
> 
> BILL CURRY
> 
> ...




Meanwhile, the _Good Grey Globe_ also reports that the Conservatives bank on robo-call storm blowing itself out ~ which, absent a real smoking gun, is the most likely outcome.

The real problems facing Canada, *right now*, are economic not political. Yes, we do have problems with the partisan political processes; we also have problems with elementary democracy: issues like equality of representation (why does a vote in PEI carry almost four times as much electoral _weight_ as one in Calgary or Toronto?) and an appointed legislative chambre. _Robocalling_, the electoral equivalent of _spoofing_, is small change.

I understand why Nycole Tremel and Bob Rae want to talk about _robocalling_, they are, or ought to be, embarrassed by their views on the economy which are sophomoric and populist and dangerous for Canada; being part of the problem, they don't want to discuss the solution.


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

"More important than Airbus? More important than Adscam?"

Potentially - Yes.   Fair elections are the basis of democracy. 

It trumps the other business of government. 

Again, I wonder what would be happening if the situation were reversed?

John Baird et al  would have something they  could really yell about.  >

OTOH This could be small change - Ibbotsen in the Globe makes the point that many of the alleged ridings were either 
A: won by the opposition anyway OR
B:  won by the Conservatives in a landslide

in either case that tactic didn't work. 

PM Harper's supposed hidden agenda? He is allegedly quoted as making a statement to the effect of by time he is finsished with Canada, one won't be able to recognize it. 

The people behind this, whomever they may be, are counting on time, general apathy, and patrisan politics to make this go away. 

I for one do not intend to give them that opportunity. 

Recceguy. Neither of us are going to change the others opinions, I think. 

Perhaps we should call a truce on this.


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## RangerRay (28 Feb 2012)

If this was a concerted effort on the part of the Tories, it appears that it was not well thought out.  According to Chantal Hebert, it appears that most of the calls were either in Tory strong holds, or in ridings where the Tories had little hope of winning.  It doesn't make sense to employ such a tactic in these ridings.  It also sounds like the NDP used robocalls to spam the office of Lise St. Denis, who left the NDP for the Liberals.

We'll have to wait and see what the investigation turns up.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1137648--hebert-robo-call-accusations-raise-uncomfortable-questions



> Hébert: Robo-call accusations raise uncomfortable questions
> 
> By Chantal Hébert National Columnist
> 
> ...


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> "More important than Airbus? More important than Adscam?"
> 
> Potentially - Yes.   Fair elections are the basis of democracy.
> 
> ...



No need. I have no axe to grind, especially with the workings of our majority government.

Unlike other people that can't, or won't, see past the nose on their face about what is really important and topical.

I also have an aversion to misguided people that make mountains out of mole hills, especially when the point they're trying to make has no proven point in fact.

I, typically, ignore them anyway.


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## Scott (28 Feb 2012)

How many of these allegations have been proven?

Just more fighting over the steering of the bandwagon thus far, methinks.

kalatzi, give it a rest


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## FSTO (28 Feb 2012)

The man who ran the conservative war room responds in Maclean's

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/02/28/whos-calling-the-conservatives/#more-242631

Of course if you are predisposed to think the Conservatives are spawn of satan then you will discount his explanation. If you are bit more sane then his points have merit.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2012)

FSTO said:
			
		

> The man who ran the conservative war room responds in Maclean's
> 
> http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/02/28/whos-calling-the-conservatives/#more-242631
> 
> Of course if you are predisposed to think the Conservatives are spawn of satan then you will discount his explanation. If you are bit more sane then his points have merit.



DO NOT read the comments if you value your sanity. You will have your common sense sucked through your ears and you will only be stupider for having read them.

They prove the adage that some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them.


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## Scott (28 Feb 2012)

Just more fodder for the people pissed off that the vote compass and polls didn't work. That is all this is.

I'll keep waiting for that smoking gun. Sadly, conjecture is enough for most.


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

A bit more background. I still can't understand why this has taken so long to get to the forefront. 

Here is a link http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/bruce-anderson/do-conservatives-now-think-they-have-carte-blanche-on-dirty-tricks/article2274378/

Please note the article is dated Dec 16, 2011

Here are some quoutes reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act:
"There’s disappointment, and understandably so, that House of Commons Speaker Andrew Scheer didn’t find that Liberal MP Irwin Cotler’s privilege as an MP was abused by the Conservative phone skullduggery carried out in his riding.

No doubt there are legitimate precedents Mr. Scheer was able to draw on to come to the conclusion he did. But it is also fair to wonder, since he called the behaviour in question “reprehensible,” if another finding wasn’t also within his reach. ...

People of whatever political stripe who care about reasonable conduct in Canada’s political life might want to press on with a couple of outstanding questions.

1. Does the leadership of the Conservative Party interpret the ruling as carte blanche to do more of this kind of “wet-work”? If this tactic were carried out on a broader scale, would anyone really think it is nothing more than sporting politics  ...

2. Do other leading Conservatives share the views of Government House Leader Peter Van Loan, who said that the calls made into Mr. Cotler’s riding were vital free speech and a sign of good health in our democracy? If Mr. Van Loan truly is speaking for cabinet… well, that would be kind of frightening. If not, he should seek an opportunity to step back from that argument and acknowledge that a line was crossed ...

This tactic and the risible defence offered by Mr. Van Loan shames them. Over more than two decades, I’ve listened to thousands of people in focus groups. I doubt if I’ve run into more than a handful who think this kind of “kill or be killed” ethos is what they are looking for from their representatives in Ottawa. I know plenty of Conservatives, including many who enjoy bare-knuckle politics; I've yet to hear one of them echo Mr. Van Loan's defence in this matter. ...

Shining a light on, and calling out this behaviour is important, and it's great that a significant number of news organizations and journalists have devoted more time and ink to it. Despite the frenetic pace of the modern news cycle, this kind of politics deserves more than the equivalent of a two-minute minor, or else the clutching, grabbing and slashing will grow worse   – and the interest of voters shrink even more."

Please note - The above refers to one incident

I still have an open mind. 

I also feel that the article provides some useful background information. 

I share the concerns of the Author, for the effects of this KIND of behaviour by ANYONE on our democratic process.


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Feb 2012)

I think you're building a foundation for your beliefs that has the consistency of meringue, and is just about as half baked.


----------



## Scott (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> A bit more background. I still can't understand why this has taken so long to get to the forefront.



Convenience? Spin? Um..._political gain_?



> I still have an open mind.



Yeah. Talk is cheap.



> I share the concerns of the Author, for the effects of this KIND of behaviour by ANYONE on our democratic process.



WE GET IT. Kalatzi MAAAAD. You need not rev the outrage bus, we know it's been started.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi:  You're not the only one concerned - others, though, are willing to wait to see what the investigations root out.


----------



## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

Here is what I think is an interesting follow on piece to my last post

Here is the link http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/dirty-tricks-poison-the-electoral-well-all-parties-need-detox/article2279354/

Please note that it was published on Dec 21 - another busy news cycle. Was Norad Tracking Santa yet?

Here are some more horribly biased quotesd - please feel free to shield your eyes lest your head explode  

Reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyriight act

:The key question that looms over contemporary Canadian politics is this: Do you need to behave horribly in order to get elected? The answer is: No, but it sure seems to help. ...

It is important to note there is no inherent partisan claim to this recipe. Certainly, any party is capable of employing these tactics ... "

Note this is a reply to the previos finding of the speaker in my previos post

"In responding to the matter, the Speaker of the House of Commons termed the practice “reprehensible” – a charge that Nick Kouvalis, principal of Campaign Research, the polling firm involved, rebuffed energetically when he appeared on CTV's National Affairs. The strategist also offered a spirited justification of his company’s political work, invoking a brand of “you-tooism” to suggest that all parties are equally complicit, albeit perhaps not equally skilled in these modern black arts. He also boasted openly and accurately that he gets winning results for his clients.  ...

Still, when Mr. Kouvalis ended the interview by insisting that even I would use his company in the face of an election, I was forced to reply with an immediate and definite no.

Here’s why: We are fouling our own nests. Political professionals are pursuing a course of conduct that is causing tangible trauma to the body politic. Voter apathy is at an all-time high. Turnout at the ballot box is at an all-time low. And people regard their political leaders unjustly in terms usually reserved for those facing prison time.

Still, when Mr. Kouvalis ended the interview by insisting that even I would use his company in the face of an election, I was forced to reply with an immediate and definite no.

Here’s why: We are fouling our own nests. Political professionals are pursuing a course of conduct that is causing tangible trauma to the body politic. Voter apathy is at an all-time high. Turnout at the ballot box is at an all-time low. And people regard their political leaders unjustly in terms usually reserved for those facing prison time.

Blame Nick Kouvalis and his ilk if you like. But that would be unfair. They merely respond to what we, as a political culture, tolerate. The real sin lies in permitting a system that incentivizes misbehavior and disrespect.

There is a remedy: Political parties must constrain their own impulse toward excess. If campaign strategists favour military analogies, then let us consider the possibility it is time for an armistice. 

...

Prior to the next election, a public compact should be joined by all major political parties – a voluntary but mutually binding agreement. It need not overreach or be so ambitious that it defies reasonable concurrence. It should be kept short and simple to encourage implementation.

That’s not naïve. Or unrealistic. Or too much to expect. And if you think it is then, frankly, you just might be part of the problem."

BTW Who is Nick Kouvalis - he is the  strategist that ran "Ford Village" saddling Toronto with our world famous two-headed hoser mayor. 

I apologize in digressing in that last remark.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Feb 2012)

Kalatzi - We get it.  You're outraged.  Many worry about potential acts that affect people's voting.  You're not alone.  Thank you.  Maybe we should trust the investigative process now that Elections Canada and the Mounties are getting involved?

A friendly warning:  you don't need to share any more historic articles with us to show how important you think this issue is.  We understand.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


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## Kalatzi (28 Feb 2012)

Thank you for your understanding.

I will do best to zipper lip.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2012)

:


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## Brad Sallows (28 Feb 2012)

Sure, it would be the surprise of the world to find out that overzealous supporters of a political party might act without being under the expression direction or in accordance with the policies of the party.


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## a_majoor (28 Feb 2012)

It occurs to me, especially now that it appears Conservative voters also got misleading directions via Robocall, that the real issue is inaccurate information in the databases that were being used.

Based on some of the stuff I get from other government departments from time to time, that seems much more likely than any other explanation...


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## Old Sweat (29 Feb 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> It occurs to me, especially now that it appears Conservative voters also got misleading directions via Robocall, that the real issue is inaccurate information in the databases that were being used.
> 
> Based on some of the stuff I get from other government departments from time to time, that seems much more likely than any other explanation...



Based on my experience working as a volunteer at the riding level, the permanent voters' list is full of errors. I have also seen voters misdirected by the data mailed to them by Elections Canada. In some cases they were directed to a polling station 30 kilometres away instead of the correct one which was virtually around the corner.


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## Rifleman62 (29 Feb 2012)

http://blogs.canoe.ca/lilleyspad/author/brian-lilley/

Author Archive
*That “voter suppresion” ATIP from Elections Canada*
Brian Lilley - February 29th, 2012

Claiming that anyone engaged in voter suppression is a serious charge and anyone caught doing it should face the legal penalties outlined in the Elections Act. But as we’ve been saying there is a lot of noise and limited evidence so far. I’d like to see more evidence if Canadians really are talking about the “largest case of electoral fraud in Canadian history” as at least one MP has put it.

I asked for and received a copy of the same access to information records that Glen McGregor and Stephen Maher of Post Media said they used for their original story. I’m sure they have other documents but this is the ATIP they used. You can read the thing below in full, it was a request for email traffic from Elections Canada on voting day.

While it does mention calls from people claiming to be from Elections Canada and misdirecting people in Guelph it doesn’t really shed much light on the subject that was not already known.

Beyond this post-mortem comment from Elections Canada:
_
“There was no conduct reported that would bring into question the integrity of the election result overall or the result in a __particular riding. Although misconduct was reported in several ridings, there is no complaint that it affected the final result. There is some speculation in the media that the dirty tricks may have affected the result in some close contests.”_

The document goes on to describe misleading calls in Guelph and the fact that some activity is legal but seen as “unfair” by candidates.*

What is fascinating is that the “robocall” issue takes up perhaps three pages of 190 pages released.*

Most of the rest of the document consists of reports of returning officers, deputy returning officers and other elections workers not showing up, not bringing the ballots, or leaving early. On page 158 you can read about the RCMP being called in to find a DRO and poll clerk in Fond-du-Lac. The polling station was reported closed, the Mounties found them out having dinner and ordered them back to work.

From these pages it would appear more people had their voting attempt interrupted or put off by missing elections workers that “robocalls.”

We should all remember that it was McGregor that brought the world the “in and out” story which was the last big scandal of widespread election rigging which resulted in a plea deal over administrative charges and not the criminal conspiracy it was played as at time. Are we facing the same thing again? Time will tell.

Read the document yourself. http://www.scribd.com/doc/83175057/Elections-Canada-voter-suppression-ATIP-A-2011-00013-Response-Records


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## Rifleman62 (29 Feb 2012)

Note that the Media Party, including Postmedia, accidentally, of course, left out this from all their media reporting:

“There was no conduct reported that would bring into question the integrity of the election result overall or the result in a particular riding. Although misconduct was reported in several ridings, there is no complaint that it affected the final result. There is some speculation in the media that the dirty tricks may have affected the result in some close contests.” 

The opposition also left out this when manufacturing this "scandal".


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## The Bread Guy (29 Feb 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Note that the Media Party, including Postmedia, accidentally, of course, left out this from all their media reporting:
> 
> “There was no conduct reported that would bring into question the integrity of the election result overall or the result in a particular riding. Although misconduct was reported in several ridings, there is no complaint that it affected the final result. There is some speculation in the media that the dirty tricks may have affected the result in some close contests.”
> 
> The opposition also left out this when manufacturing this "scandal".


Media cherrypicking ATIP material is FAR from news, folks, so we shouldn't be entirely surprised.  Perfect example:  800+ pages released, here's what pops up:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/43759/post-380957.html

Also, has anyone seen the reporters who broke the story share the ATIP'ed material?  I stand to be corrected, but I haven't.  The competition had to share it - funny that, eh?

P.S.  Now you know why I'm always keen to ask, "why don't we see the WHOLE ATIP'ed document in media stories?"


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## jollyjacktar (29 Feb 2012)

They seek him here, they seek him there, Those Frenchies Liberals and Dippers seek him everywhere.  Is he in heaven, or is he in hell?  That dammed elusive Pimpernel Pierre Poutine.     (With apologies to all the Pimpernel fans out there.)


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## Edward Campbell (1 Mar 2012)

And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, is a much more likely explanation for the _harassing_ phone calls:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/pushing-back-on-robo-calls-tories-blame-liberals-for-electoral-mischief/article2355453/


> Pushing back on robo-calls, Tories blame Liberals for electoral mischief
> 
> STEVEN CHASE
> 
> ...




The simplest explanation for calls that purport to be from the Liberal Party of Canada is that they *are from the Liberal Party of Canada*.

Re: robo-calls ~ if Prime Minister Harper is confident enough to make the bold "not guilty" assertions, in the House, that he has then I'm guessing that he knows who made the calls and there is no connection to the Conservative campaign and, possibly, not even to Conservative supporters; it may have been a disgruntled former worker who was making mischief just for spite.


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## Scott (1 Mar 2012)

Betcha can't convince Kalatzi though, ER. It's _Harper_ and that name means _guilty_.


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## Jed (1 Mar 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, is a much more likely explanation for the _harassing_ phone calls:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/pushing-back-on-robo-calls-tories-blame-liberals-for-electoral-mischief/article2355453/
> 
> ...



Now that is an AHA! moment. With all the speculating that the Mainstream Media seems to be doing about this issue, none of them seem to speculate along this line of thought.


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## ModlrMike (1 Mar 2012)

The logic fail in this whole episode amazes me.

The Torries knew from the time the writ dropped that they would be under a microscope WRT their election practices given the outcome of the in-and-out issue. I can't for a moment believe they'd be so stupid as to officially organize a vote suppression operation.

The infrastructure and coordination required to pull this off would leave too big a footprint. Given that the media is continually looking for the slightest opportunity to lay scandal at the feet of the Torries, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to actually arrange something like this. If there's one thing we've learned about Mr Harper over the last 15 years... he's not stupid. The left's characterization of him notwithstanding.


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## Remius (1 Mar 2012)

He isn't.  Others might be though.


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## GAP (1 Mar 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> Betcha can't convince Kalatzi though, ER. It's _Harper_ and that name means _guilty_.



Isn't that the one who wants to pick up t*&^s by the clean end?


----------



## Scott (1 Mar 2012)

Crantor said:
			
		

> He isn't.  Others might be though.



Yeah. I heard this put forth on the CBC today. By the same person who decries how much _control_ Harper exerts over his own party. Some of these dolts don't stop talking long enough to remember what it is they have said.

Fail.


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## The Bread Guy (1 Mar 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Easy, now - let's stick with picking apart the _message_*, not the _messenger_.

* - And there _still_ seems to be lots to pick apart in the messages we're getting from most MSM!


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## GAP (1 Mar 2012)

mea culpa   ..........................................


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## Rifleman62 (1 Mar 2012)

Lets play, "What will the media say?", a game that easily predicts where the news report is going.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2012)

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120301/ontario-election-robocalls-120301/


> The Conservatives have linked their Liberal rivals to an American speed-dialing company amid ongoing allegations of harassing phone calls during the 2011 election.
> 
> The accusation comes as an increasing number of reports emerge that Canadians received automated calls on election day from mysterious phone numbers, some with U.S. area codes.
> 
> ...





Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120301/ontario-election-robocalls-120301/#ixzz1nuHJuEuI 


Oh me, oh my, are the liebrals caught inside their own fish trap?

Another reason to ensure that this party suffers the ultimate fate of total annihilation from the electorate.

Abscam, Shawinigate, etc. How much more decisive evidence do Canadian need that this corrupt and morally bankrupt party needs to be dealt it's death blow?


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## Kalatzi (2 Mar 2012)

I read some of the other posts on this thread where members were taking me to task.

Also Recceguys last post. You know what I reallly really hope that they are right, and I'm just a best a nut job. 

Taking a look at the media this morning it doesn't look like I am. 

And this is Soooo not good, not just for Canada but for Western liberal Democracies as well. 

I note  that outcome in Etobicoek Centre is now before the courts. 

Also the association that advocates for companies doing telephone surveys etc is investigateing RMG the group that did much of the phone work for the CPC campaign. 

Whoulda thunk that telemarketers wouldn't  want to be associated with this kinda nonsense >

I also note that reports are starting to come in about the provincial campaign

Why the timing. Well if your on the recewiving end of this in the federal campaign, and know that a provincial campaign, where the same tactiics are likelly to be repeated. Why not wait, see what happens, and then take action. 

I summarise by noting again that these types of tactics do a grave disservice to everyone, including the originators as they serve to further weaken the fabric of our legendary Western liberal Democracies. 

That is why I and many others feel it so important to resolve this matter


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## Edward Campbell (2 Mar 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ...
> Oh me, oh my, are the liebrals caught inside their own fish trap?
> ...




No, I don't think so. My suspicion is that this is an individual, maybe a few separate individuals, who is/are (a) political partisan(s) but who is/are not associated with any of the parties.  This _smells_ like a prank that a _twenty-something_/recent university grad, political _wannabee_ might think up ~ most likely after his (it _smells like a guy_) application to work on a campaign was rejected because he was deemed to be too immature.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Mar 2012)

Part of the difficulty of keeping all this straight in my own brain cell is different types of calls being lumped together:
1)  "Robocalls" reportedly telling people they have to go somewhere else to vote than they originally planned
2)  Real people calls reportedly telling people they have to go somewhere else to vote than they originally planned
3)  Real people calls reportedly telling people in a sometimes allegedly rude or pressing way "you should vote for this party, not that"

1 & 2 can be caused by:
- organized + sanctioned ill intent
- organized + unsanctioned ill intent (sexy for the opposition, which is why this is being flogged)
- random ill intent
- organized and/or random idiocy/stupidity (not as sexy, but still lets the opposition point fingers)
- ill briefed/informed/trained call centre workers
- bad source/database info (not nearly as sexy, and less subject to pointing of partisan fingers)
- (add your own theory here)

3 strikes me as an extreme end of the way the game is played (pushy folks?  some involved as volunteers and/or staff in politics?  what a concept!)

Then there's the alleged players:
1)  campaign consulting/advisory companies
2)  call centres (hired by (1) or political parties)
3)  individuals within party apparatuses (apparati?)
4)  political parties (unlikely, but the opposition presses....)

Any other factors I'm missing here?

That's why I look forward to clear reporting of some kind by Elections Canada and/or RCMP on this.


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## Privateer (2 Mar 2012)

> Oh me, oh my, are the liebrals caught inside their own fish trap?



Nope.  It looks like the Con's jumped the gun without checking their "facts":  http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2204463603


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2012)

Privateer said:
			
		

> Nope.  It looks like the Con's jumped the gun without checking their "facts":  http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2204463603



CBC and, especially, Milewski are way too partisan to be taken seriously on just about anything political concerning the Tories.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Mar 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Privateer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A bit more detail from an exchange in the House of Commons yesterday on this company thing....





> .... Hon. Ralph Goodale (Wascana, Lib.):   Mr. Speaker, pertaining to matters that arose during question period, there was a fair bit of confusion, indeed obfuscation, about a company called First Contact. In fact there is a Canadian telephone company by that name that does business entirely in Canada. That is the company that was engaged by Liberals and Liberal candidates across the country. There is, unfortunately, another company by exactly the same name that does business in the United States. That company, the Liberal Party did not do any business with.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, the letter to the editor that was written by the Liberal candidate and read by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister actually stated that it is a Canadian company that uses American servers, and that is why American phone numbers showed up on the calls they made. That was the explanation and that is exactly what goes to the root of what we are talking about here ....


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## ModlrMike (2 Mar 2012)

A refreshingly reasonable article on the subject:

Coyne: Robocon is a scandal with no clear pattern
By Andrew Coyne, Postmedia News February 29, 2012

A week after the story of the fraudulent robocalls first broke — or rather re-broke, the rudiments of the story having been reported at the time of the last election — the scandal remains a puzzle.

More at Link.


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## Edward Campbell (2 Mar 2012)

They, maybe, should have given Pat Martin a chance to retract and apologize ... but it, the lawsuit reported in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, is poetic justice:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/alberta-firm-at-centre-of-robo-call-probe-sues-bombastic-ndp-mp/article2357127/


> Alberta firm at centre of robo-call probe sues bombastic NDP MP
> 
> DANIEL LEBLANC
> 
> ...




Anything Pat Martin, or anyone else, says, inside the House of Common, even in Committees, is protected by _parliamentary privilege_ but he's both glib and very partisan so he is a popular off the hill speaker and I guess he let his enthusiasm for partisanship get ahead of his better judgement.


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## Retired AF Guy (2 Mar 2012)

Stephan Taylor's blog has a copy of the law suit and according to the document Martin and the NDP are being sued for statements/actions that took pave outside Parliament, so, no immunity. As always, these allegations remain to be proven in court.

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/


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## Rifleman62 (2 Mar 2012)

recceguy: 





> CBC and, especially, Milewski are way too partisan to be taken seriously on just about anything political concerning the Tories.



Lets play, "What will the media say?", a game that easily predicts where the news report is going.

http://paulsrants-paulsstuff.blogspot.com/2012/03/media-thinks-online-petition-is.html

*Media Thinks Online Petition Is A Complaint Filed With Elections Canada*

Wow. Lefties decry the fact they think Conservatives are using American style campaign tactics, oblivious to the fact they themselves are guilty of American-style journalism, that being twisting the truth. No make that outright lying about the facts.

Alberta Aardvark has a great post up showing the utter lack of ethics and integrity in Canadian journalism. That a supposedly reputable media source could run a headline claiming there are over 31,000 complaints filed with Elections Canada, when EC is simply the victim of the NDP led by Ian Capstick and Robin Sears running an online petition and including the head of EC's email as one of the recipients boggles the mind. 

http://thealbertaardvark.blogspot.com/

*31,000 contacts to Election's Canada on Robo Calls. I think I, and the NDP, might know why.*

It was all over the media this morning. Reports of 31,000 complaints* to Elections Canada on Robo Calls. (*While it was clarified that it was 31,000 contacts and not complaints, the media ran with it often repeating the "complaints" line rather than the fact that they were contacts and not complaints)

What you didn't hear about from our ever vigilant media is just where those 'contacts' may have came from.

Take a look at this page from leadnow.ca and take a good look at the number of "messages sent" to Elections Canada.  See something interesting?

8 hrs after the 31,000 number appears it now reads upward of 36,000. ALL of which have been sent to Elections Canada and if you read the wording of the email that will be sent when you click, it is definitely not a complaint of robo calling. 

Oh and while you are there be sure to look at their about page. It looks like what you might find on a list for an NDP strategy meeting.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Mar 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> .... It was all over the media this morning. Reports of 31,000 complaints* to Elections Canada on Robo Calls. (*While it was clarified that it was 31,000 contacts and not complaints, the media ran with it often repeating the "complaints" line rather than the fact that they were contacts and not complaints) ....


Heard the same story line on CBC Radio as late in the day as 5:30pm Eastern - now we have a bit of the REST of the story....



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> .... if you read the wording of the email that will be sent when you click, it is definitely not a complaint of robo calling ....


For sure - here's the wording (won't include the link, lest we crank up their hit stats):


> Dear Prime Minister Harper, Mr Corbett, Mr Paulson, Ms Turmel, Mr Rae, Ms. May and Mr. Plamondon,
> 
> I am gravely concerned by the Elections Canada report that has just traced illegal phone calls made during the 2011 federal election to a company that worked for the Conservative Party across the country.
> 
> ...



Good catch R62


----------



## ModlrMike (2 Mar 2012)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Stephan Taylor's blog has a copy of the law suit and according to the document Martin and the NDP are being sued for statements/actions that took pave outside Parliament, so, no immunity. As always, these allegations remain to be proven in court.
> 
> http://www.stephentaylor.ca/



Mr Martin has caracterized this as a SLAPP suit: (taken from CBC.ca)



> Martin told CBC he is "disappointed" that RackNine would "pull the trigger before they'd even seen the response to their original complaint."
> 
> "Classic libel-chill slap-suit tactic I guess. How to silence someone with your chequebook," Martin wrote in an email.


----------



## Edward Campbell (2 Mar 2012)

My hunch (it isn't even well enough informed to be a guess) is that Prime Minister Harper either:

1. Kicked this over to Elections Canada and the RCMP because, as Jean Chrétien so ably demonstrated, that's the way to make problems go away; or

2. Knows the whole story and is 100% confident that it is not going to hurt the Conservative Party but is waiting for the opposition and the media - and he hates the media more than he hates Liberals - to dig themselves deeper and deeper into it before he springs a trap and shows them to be foolish old women making a big fuss over nothing.

I find it very, very hard to believe that professional political operators would be stupid enough to commit a *clear* offense against the Elections Act for such small stakes. I think "in and out" was an _honest_ attempt at "pushing the envelope;" it failed but not because the Tories thought they were breaking the law; they thought they could bend the rules to suit their purposes - Elections Canada disagreed, the Tories "lost" but it was not a crime. This is different and that's why it _smells_, to me, like an undergrad prank gone wrong.


----------



## Rifleman62 (3 Mar 2012)

http://digital.nationalpost.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

*Political puppet master busted*

MIKE FAILLE / NATIONAL POST

*MONDAY*

Look at these front pages across the nation: “Pierre Poutine linked to robocall scandal”; “Could Pierre Poutine be the demon dialer behind robocalls?”; “Is Pierre Poutine the man who stole Canadian democracy?” It’s nice to finally get some recognition, Canada. I’m surprised it took you so long to find the man who handpicked your G8 government. And I did it all from right here, my sprawling Separatist Street lair buried deep beneath Joliette, Que.


In the days and hours before Election Day, it was here that my legions of grey-uniformed henchmen directed naïve constituents to fake voting places on mountaintops, inside grizzly bear dens and on highway medians. They called on the Jewish sabbath, the Christian sabbath, the Bahá’í sabbath, the Wiccan sabbath. Ten thousand Ndpers in southern Saskatchewan never saw the inside of a voting booth because they were busy fitting plastic bags over their phone receivers after someone told them Sasktel was “blowing out the lines.”

*TUESDAY*

Pat Martin screams in the House today that the electoral system has been “compromised by American dirty tricks.” Dean Del Mastro screams back that NDP coffers are stuffed with ill-gotten money. Dance, you vapid marionettes; I am your puppet master! Oh, but if those rubes knew the true scope and genius of my May 2 masterpiece. Every Liberal in Downtown Montreal woke up that morning to a flaming paper bag filled with dog poop on their front step. Yet all it took to keep the Grits home in Michael Ignatieff ’s riding was a brilliantly pre-arranged Fawlty Towers TV marathon.

Many can pull off electoral fraud; few can make it a magnum opus. Obviously it was supposed to be a Liberal majority with the Green Party in Opposition. Only a man as clever and conniving as Pierre Poutine could have turned the election map blue, with a dash of orange in Quebec for flair. Thirty-three million people are my palette and the world’s second-largest land mass is my canvas. Compared to me, Rembrandt, Leonardo and

Van Gogh are but mere napkin doodlers.

*WEDNESDAY*

Today, I brood. Fifty years I’ve been at this, 17 federal elections, countless provincial races and yet, sometimes … I feel so empty.

In 1980, I derailed the Quebec referendum by ordering a dozen pizzas to every address in Bas-saint-laurent. I gave that awkward Prairie newspaperman Joe Clark a taste of the big leagues by scaring away the B.C. vote using polling stations strewn with rotting salmon. If it wasn’t for me putting shaving cream in the bath towels of every Turner supporter in western Quebec, Brian Mulroney would still be a nobody labour lawyer in Montreal.

But I admit I’ve always had a soft spot for the Liberals; I’ve never tired of the beauty of naïve idealism blossoming into sweet, systemic corruption. That is, until 2004 when I met a nerdy economist named Stephen Harper in a Gatineau parking garage. A cold, calculating automaton. Like me, a man unhindered by emotion, warmth or worry. He’d become the son I’d never had, and I knew at once he was to be my next political spawn. Why tease him with two minority governments? Pierre Poutine brought Stephen Harper into this world, and Pierre Poutine can take him out. It’s a lesson he won’t soon forget.
*
THURSDAY*

I was inspecting my overly elaborate laser-perimeter when my henchmen brought me an intruder found roaming the grounds: my old friend Bob Rae. Poor woebegone old

Bobby Rae. He was just a sad sack in oversized Sally Jesse Raphael glasses when I turned him into a star by tying together the shoelaces of every Tory west of London. And now, the disheveled wretch dares stand before me and demand I give up my ways? “Your time is done, Poutine. It’s time to let the voters decide who takes power.” Judas! I am the only power in this country, Rae! The revelation! The life force at the root of all things! Canadian voters are a destructive, dangerous force. They must be controlled.

*FRIDAY*

A sharp clang on the roof summoned me to my periscope. Peering out, my suspicions are confirmed: Elections Canada agents rappelling down the walls and fording the crocodile moat. My worthless henchmen insist on clumsily attacking one at a time, only to be instantly knocked out by the agents’ potent karate chops. To the stealth helicopter! Those chumps may breach my secret lair, however they will not find Pierre Poutine but rather a stunning barrage of toilet paper and silly string.

Ah well. It’s about time I shook off the dust of Joliette, Que. To the snow-dusted plains of Alberta, the only place left where a worldweary election-fixer can truly stretch his legs. Premier Danielle Smith? An opposition caucus comprised exclusively of horses? Maybe I’ll see if the Socreds can still field a full slate of candidates. Robocalls, robotexts, robo-candidates, and Saran Wrap on every toilet seat in Edmonton. I feel it: This is going to be the one they’ll remember me for.


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 Mar 2012)

More _evidence_, not _proof_, that the Conservatives are 99.99% sure they are "clean" on the robo-call issue, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/top-tory-organizer-denies-dirty-tricks-in-last-years-election/article2358153/


> Top Tory organizer denies dirty tricks in last year’s election
> 
> DANIEL LEBLANC
> 
> ...




My guess is that the Conservatives have _insider_ information about the Guelph _robo-calling_ thing, maybe they even know "who dunnit," and they are confident that they, the CPC, are not even remotely involved ~ either than or they are whistling past a graveyard and just hoping that they are in the clear. If it's the latter then Stephen Harper and Guy Giorno are fools out looking for trouble, and that doesn't seem likely.


----------



## ModlrMike (4 Mar 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> More _evidence_, not _proof_, that the Conservatives are 99.99% sure they are "clean" on the robo-call issue, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/top-tory-organizer-denies-dirty-tricks-in-last-years-election/article2358153/
> 
> My guess is that the Conservatives have _insider_ information about the Guelph _robo-calling_ thing, maybe they even know "who dunnit," and they are confident that they, the CPC, are not even remotely involved ~ either than or they are whistling past a graveyard and just hoping that they are in the clear. If it's the latter then Stephen Harper and Guy Giorno are fools out looking for trouble, and that doesn't seem likely.




As I said previously, they had to know they would be put under the microscope both during and after the election. I find it interesting that Guelph seems to be the epicenter - a riding the Torries, no matter how dirty the attempt, couldn't hope to win (+6000 margin for Lib).


----------



## Kalatzi (4 Mar 2012)

From todays Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/

There is a delightful phrase that I just cant resist quoting - "Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the former chief electoral officer, hopes that the robo-call affair will raise the bar for ethical behaviour in future campaigns. " 

There is another phrease that I have to do some work to put into context. Please bear with me. 

In and Out Scandal - Has a nice ring to it don't ya think?

Netted the CPC  approx $1.3 million than they wre allowed raise to by law.  They won the 2006 election. Five years later they plea bargained a fine of $52,000. 

Ok, Ok now here comes the good part,  again from the Globe and Mail Article. 

"“Canadians will be on the watch and political operatives will be very careful about what they do with our electoral system,” he told Tom Clark on Global TV. “And I think we will see them respecting the law with integrity.”

They should know by now that breaking the rules can land a party in a world of hurt, no matter who did it, or why.
 "

I regret oreport that I just can't seem to speak that last sentence aloud without either choking and or bursting  into laughter.


----------



## PuckChaser (4 Mar 2012)

I'm still waiting for any sort of proof that's not circumstantial and conjecture that links the Tories to these calls. "They used the company before" really doesn't fly unless you're trying to grab headlines as a biased MSM.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Mar 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> From todays Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/
> 
> There is a delightful phrase that I just cant resist quoting - "Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the former chief electoral officer, hopes that the robo-call affair will raise the bar for ethical behaviour in future campaigns. "
> 
> ...



Once more, you take a few sound bytes or pull a couple of lines from a complete conversation, screw down your tinfoil and launch into another Harper is evil diatribe. 

Your unproven allegations have moved from the mundane to manifest themselves akin to the excruciatingly painful mumblings of a streetcorner schizophrenic.

You're also not going to be warned anymore about your lack of proofreading for grammar and repeated failure to use the spell check. You're out of chances in that department.


----------



## larry Strong (4 Mar 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> From todays Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/
> 
> There is a delightful phrase that I just cant resist quoting - "Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the former chief electoral officer, hopes that the robo-call affair will raise the bar for ethical behaviour in future campaigns. "
> 
> ...



Your bias is in full bloom. Right from the get go this thread has been a bash Harper and the Conservatives. Pretty well what I would expect from Redeye, y'all cousins?


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Mar 2012)

More, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, from a guy (John Ibbitson) who is not a big fan of Harper or the Conservatives, on my the Tories are, probably, "innocent" (of these charges):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/


> The case against a Conservative conspiracy
> 
> JOHN IBBITSON
> 
> ...


----------



## Kalatzi (6 Mar 2012)

I for one used to find my high school civices classes just as dry as dust.  If I were a current teacher I feel this would liven things up a bit, and I expect  that will be good for us all.

For example I find the portions of the article dealing on restrictions on information on the internet particulary interesting. 

A bit more background courtesy of the Globe and Mail and the fair use provision of the copyright act. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/lawrence-martin/a-blood-feud-beyond-ballots/article2359436/

A blood feud beyond ballots 

LAWRENCE MARTIN 

The jackasses at Elections Canada are out of control.”

In 2001, Stephen Harper was president of the National Citizens Coalition. That was his opening line in a fundraising letter.

His loathing for the election overseers was almost pathological, recalls Gerry Nicholls, the conservative commentator who worked with Mr. Harper at the NCC. It was a “blood feud,” he says, one that appears to be “never ending.”


But Mr. Harper had good reason, in Mr. Nicholls’s view, for his contempt. Rather than neutral public servants, the Elections Canada apparatchiks, then led by Jean-Pierre Kingsley, were “the epitome of bureaucratic evil,” with leftist axes to grind.

Mr. Harper’s wars with the ballot bureaucrats at Elections Canada while he was at the NCC were only the beginning. Some of his top men were charged with manipulating campaign finance rules during the 2006 election in what became known as the “in and out” spending scandal.

Now, Elections Canada officials are looking into thousands of complaints about harassing and misleading phone calls made during the 2011 election campaign in which voters were directed to the wrong polling stations. Conservatives deny any wrongdoing, but the robo-call investigation is targeting them and it can hardly be comforting to Mr. Harper that Elections Canada is running it.

The “jackasses” letter that Mr. Harper wrote is intriguing in many ways. What had him incensed was a law that banned Canadians from transmitting real-time election results, the purpose being to prevent voters in one region from learning the results in another before voting.

Mr. Harper was taking up the cause of a B.C. man, Paul Bryan, who had been charged with violating the law after posting Atlantic Canada results on his website in the 2000 election before the polls closed in other parts of the country. Mr. Harper argued that, in the age of the Internet, the Elections Canada ban made no sense. Mr. Bryan’s only offence, he wrote, was to believe in freedom of speech at election time.

But Mr. Harper’s words have a rather peculiar ring today. Elections Canada bureaucrats went after Mr. Bryan, he said in his letter, “to establish the precedent of government control of the Internet. … The implications are very ominous, very scary.” And yet, his own government recently tried to introduce Internet surveillance legislation, only to be thwarted by a public backlash.

“Iron-fisted bully tactics have no place in a free and democratic society,” Mr. Harper wrote, in reference to Mr. Kingsley. “Information is power. The less control the government has over the flow of information, the less control it can exert over its citizens. … We cannot allow the government to dictate what information we can and cannot publish.”

Ironically, on information flows, the Harper government is widely viewed as one of Canada’s most restrictive. Just last week, the journal Nature accused the government of muzzling the science community.

The battles against gag laws by Mr. Harper, who recently lifted the law on the broadcasting of election results, cost the Citizens Coalition more than $1-million in legal fees. In respect to the “in and out” scheme, the RCMP raided Conservative offices in 2008, and the party sued Elections Canada. Ultimately, the party pleaded guilty to overspending during the 2006 campaign.

In his 2001 letter, Mr. Harper accused Elections Canada of being “out of control.” The question today, as the robo-call scandal continues, is whether it’s his own party members who are out of control.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Mar 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> If I were a current teacher  I feel this would liven things up a bit, and I expect  that will be good for us all.



If you were a current teacher, it would go a long way to explaining why so many students have trouble with the written word.


----------



## RangerRay (6 Mar 2012)

It's no secret that Lawrence Martin carries water for the Liberals.  He's bitter that he won't be getting a Senate seat anytime soon.

Meanwhile, in the same paper, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, a completely different view:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/margaret-wente/robo-calls-get-a-grip-were-canadian/article2359578/



> *Robo-calls? Get a grip. We’re Canadian*
> 
> MARGARET WENTE
> From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
> ...



There is a lot of hot air, bloviating, innuendo and speculation floating around.  From what I can tell, it does not look like a sophisticated concerted effort by any party.  I, for one, will await the findings of any and all investigations.


----------



## ModlrMike (6 Mar 2012)

I think the comments to the article pretty much make her case for her.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Mar 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I think the comments to the article pretty much make her case for her.



Mouth breathers.


----------



## Kalatzi (7 Mar 2012)

In-And-Out Election Financing: Tories Drop Supreme Court Case, Repay Taxpayers
link here http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/06/in-and-out-election-financing-tories_n_1325278.html?ref=canada

More of the same here:    Stephen Harper, Tories, Reject Elections Canada Request For Verification Power

 http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/06/stephen-harper-tories-elections-canada_n_1324962.html?ref=stephen-harpe

I also note the overly simplistic reponnes to Ms Wentes column in the Globe and Mail, You can probably find the sdame in every other column in the media that has taken a negative slant on this. 

Let's face it it is the majority.  

Ms Wente notes "That our democracy works well most of the time"

May I respectfully suggest to everyone that thats not good enough 

Even better - We wouldn't be having this debate in this forum if we didn't care.  I am very concerned about the level of political debate to the South. Canadcian deserve better. 

I tend to be liberal, and am VERY troubled, for example, about how things are going in Toronto right now, We're the 6'th largest public spender in Canada. It's startting to look like chaos. 

OK, OK so whats may main point?   There needs to be enough Legs, "Bioviating"Etc on this issue to propell those in charge of seeing it throught to keep the pressure up, so it doesn't gets swept off the back burner. 

Finally, for those that have borne with me, this type of denate may not ensure a Utopian solution, but it will go a LONG way in preventing a Dystopian one.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Mar 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> In-And-Out Election Financing: Tories Drop Supreme Court Case, Repay Taxpayers
> link here http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/06/in-and-out-election-financing-tories_n_1325278.html?ref=canada
> 
> More of the same here:    Stephen Harper, Tories, Reject Elections Canada Request For Verification Power
> ...


You've been warned about using the spellcheck enough. 

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## DBA (8 Mar 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> I for one used to find my high school civices classes just as dry as dust.  If I were a current teacher I feel this would liven things up a bit, and I expect  that will be good for us all.
> 
> For example I find the portions of the article dealing on restrictions on information on the internet particulary interesting.



The Conservative government announced they would lift the ban on transmitting early election results in mid January.  
Ref: CBC: Tories to lift ban on transmitting early election results


----------



## a_majoor (8 Mar 2012)

Well, working yourself into a froth without any actual evidence does tend to cloud the mind. Some apologies are now making the rounds:

http://debsimms.com/2012/03/08/robocall-mea-culpas-bring-them-on/



> *Robocall Mea Culpas: Bring them ON*
> 
> 08 Thursday Mar 2012
> 
> ...



Edit to add:

http://plattytalk.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-simple-question.html



> *It's a simple question*
> And one that should take no time at all to respond to, I mean, it happened nine months ago! I sent an email to the Commissioners Office at Elections Canada earlier this week asking if, well here's the email:
> 
> Hello, could you please tell me the number of complaints that Elections Canada received immediately after the last election, in other words, before robocall became a matter of media interest.
> ...


----------



## Cloud Cover (9 Mar 2012)

I have read the June 8, 2011  Information and Beleif to Obtain a _Production Order _ and a copy of the _Production Order_. itself. It is available on the web if you search for it. It is a long read, and is fairly well organized but one does need to white board to map the evidence path due to its complexity.  My review of this order is that it appears that a very diligent public officer at Elections Canada has been assigned to this case, and that the electronic evidence appears to be pointing in the direction of the Marty Burke Conservative campaign, as noted at paragraph 64;

"Based on the facts identified above in the grounds for my belief I think it is reasonable for me to believe that some sort of customer relationship existed between the Marty Burke Conservative campaign in Guelph for the 41st general election and Racknine, Inc. or between certain Burke campaign workers and Racknine Inc.;  that this relationship was related to the general election campaign in Guelph; and that the reltionship related to the misleading calls made to Guelph area electors.."


Now note that this is only an information a belief to obtain a Production Order pursuant to 487.012 of the _Criminal Code_, that was endorsed by a Justice of the Peace in Alberta, and it is not a finding of any particular facts by a trial judge. The _Criminal Code _ Production Order authority is available to a public officer such as an Elections Canada investigator, but is not restricted only to criminal code violations- it is available for investigating for the purposes of enforcing any Act of Parliament, in this case the _Canada Elections Act_.

I am not able to determine if the results of this part of the investigation were actually available in full at the time the initial draft of the election report was published by Elections Canada.  

If you cant find the document on the web, PM me and i will send it to you.


----------



## PuckChaser (10 Mar 2012)

"Reasonable to believe some sort of relationship" means the person has no legally admissible proof. Its the same circumstantial crap the opposition is throwing around trying to see what sticks.


----------



## a_majoor (10 Mar 2012)

In a rather bizzare development, dirty trick Robocalls have surfaced in the United States. Given the Canadian media frenzy over the issue, it is perhaps not surprising some Americans got the idea this is either effective or is a matter of great concern to ordinary Canadians:

http://harndenblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/03/-women-of-the-99-percent.html



> *Illegal robocalls accuse Republicans over Rush Limbaugh and 'slut' slur*
> 
> A group calling itself "The Women of the 99 Percent" is making robocalls across the United States in an attempt to link Republican members of the House of Representatives to "the war on women led by Rush Limbaugh".
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (10 Mar 2012)

As was probably inevitable, the LPC is also now caught (with audio evidence, no less) of doing Robocalls as well. We of course will hear volumes about this on the CBC....(yeah, right)

http://www.bluelikeyou.com/2012/03/10/no-one-is-smelling-like-roses/



> *No one is smelling like roses*
> Posted on March 10, 2012 by Joanne
> 
> I’m very grateful that we have at least a handful of ethical, objective journalists in Canada, and John Ivison is certainly among that chosen few.
> ...


----------



## ballz (10 Mar 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> As was probably inevitable, the LPC is also now caught (with audio evidence, no less) of doing Robocalls as well. We of course will hear volumes about this on the CBC....(yeah, right)



I don't recall the LPC or the NDP ever saying they don't use robocalls during election campaigns? Bob Rae said in the HoC over a week ago that they used a company called First Contact...

The issue isn't using these robocall companies, it's that someone tried to use robocalls to commit voter suppression.


----------



## a_majoor (10 Mar 2012)

Try reading the full post and listening to the audio. This Liberal Robocall seems to break one and maybe two EC laws. 

As for voter suppression, AFAIK there is only one _substantiated_ instance of a voter being sent to a different polling station (the rest are allegations, which only surfaced after the story broke. Until they are substantiated, I`d keep these numbers on hold). 

edit to add

The root cause of the entire `sending people to the wrong polling booth` may not be any political party at all, but rather:

http://pragmatictory.blogspot.com/2012/03/is-media-slowly-uncovering-elections.html




> *Is The Media Slowly Uncovering Elections Canada Incompetence?*
> 
> Over this past week the opposition and the media have been hammering the Tories with allegations and speculation of large scale election fraud, and their relentless "digging for the truth" may be about to uncover large scale election incompetence by Elections Canada's army of temporary low wage workers. For example, CBC's Terry Milewski reported today on several hundred incomplete or bogus registration forms in the riding office of Eglington Lawrence, where Joe Oliver defeated Joe Volpe (of course you might remember Joe Volpe, who formerly registered dead people to support his Liberal leadership campaign). The accusations that the Conservative candidate was responsible for sloppy paper work in the EC office started flying before anyone thought to point out that Elections Canada is responsible for ensuring that registration forms are properly completed with proof of ID provided before they add that voter to the list of electors. This is not Joe Oliver's fault, but that inconvenient truth is absent from Milewski's investigative report.
> 
> ...


----------



## ballz (10 Mar 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Try reading the full post and listening to the audio. This Liberal Robocall seems to break one and maybe two EC laws.
> 
> As for voter suppression, AFAIK there is only one _substantiated_ instance of a voter being sent to a different polling station (the rest are allegations, which only surfaced after the story broke. Until they are substantiated, I`d keep these numbers on hold).
> 
> ...



I did read the full post, and I did listen to the recording. What EC laws are you suggesting it breaks? The article even specifically says that there was nothing illegal about it, and from what I can tell there isn't either. I would also disagree that it's unethical.



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> As for voter suppression, AFAIK there is only one _substantiated_ instance of a voter being sent to a different polling station (the rest are allegations, which only surfaced after the story broke. Until they are substantiated, I`d keep these numbers on hold).
> 
> The root cause of the entire `sending people to the wrong polling booth` may not be any political party at all, but rather:



That's irrelevant to my comment. I never said voter suppression did take place and I never said the Tories are guilty of it. Just pointing out that both your comment is completely missing the issue.


----------



## rifleman (10 Mar 2012)

What a stretch to even  try to tie that robocall to anything related to the allegation of misdirection to the wrong polling station....#fail


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Mar 2012)

rifleman said:
			
		

> What a stretch to even  try to tie that robocall to anything related to the allegation of misdirection to the wrong polling station....#fail



Not exactly. We now have concrete evidence of only one party breaking the law... and it's not the Conservatives. While not precisely the same as the alleged robocall content, let he who is without sin etc...


----------



## a_majoor (10 Mar 2012)

The one clear violation of the EA is the Liberal Robocall is no party affiliation was declared by the caller.

The possible violation is the identity of the caller; if this is an actor and no one of that name really exists then impersonation of another person is also a violation of the EA.


----------



## ballz (11 Mar 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The one clear violation of the EA is the Liberal Robocall is no party affiliation was declared by the caller.
> 
> The possible violation is the identity of the caller; if this is an actor and no one of that name really exists then impersonation of another person is also a violation of the EA.



Thank you for clarifying. It is certainly in violation of this one.



> Election Advertising
> 
> Message must be authorized
> 
> 320. A candidate or registered party, or a person acting on their behalf, who causes election advertising to be conducted shall mention in or on the message that its transmission was authorized by the official agent of the candidate or by the registered agent of the party, as the case may be.



http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=res&dir=loi/fel/cea&document=part16&lang=e#sec320

Now using the word "caught" makes a lot more sense. It seems insignificant when you compare it to voter suppression, but the Elections Act must be adhered to, even the smaller stuff.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Mar 2012)

Well, this could be an interesting day tomorrow.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/11/pierre-poutine-robocalls-3/

Pierre Poutine’ set to admit to role in robocalls scandal, sources say


----------



## Remius (12 Mar 2012)

Yep.  Answers will be forthcoming but I'm curious to see how all sides will spin this.  Sometimes some people can't believe things even if it smacks them in the face.

If this was a rogue individual, the opposition won't belive that.  If this person was directed by a higher authority then Conservatives will deny that as well.

What a goat rodeo.


----------



## Remius (12 Mar 2012)

Strange that most media isn't picking that story up.  Could it be it is a non story?  

I'm betting it was a 12 year old with time to spare.


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Mar 2012)

There's also the question that hasn't been asked:

Could this have been an attempt to discredit the Torries? I know that's Machiavellian, but it wouldn't be the first time an ID was spoofed.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Mar 2012)

.... on the "+30K reports/contacts/complaints" filed with Elections Canada, at long, long last.

2 Mar 12, via Army.ca:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/104724/post-1120469.html#msg1120469





> .... *31,000 contacts to Election's Canada on Robo Calls. I think I, and the NDP, might know why.*
> 
> It was all over the media this morning. Reports of 31,000 complaints* to Elections Canada on Robo Calls. (*While it was clarified that it was 31,000 contacts and not complaints, the media ran with it often repeating the "complaints" line rather than the fact that they were contacts and not complaints)
> 
> ...



12 Mar 12, _Globe & Mail_:





> Elections Canada says the bulk of the 31,000 messages it’s received from Canadians concerning fraudulent robo-calls in the 2011 ballot were merely form letters.
> 
> “The majority of those contacts were made via automated forms or online form letters,” agency spokesman John Enright said Monday.
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Mar 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There's also the question that hasn't been asked:
> 
> Could this have been an attempt to discredit the Torries? I know that's Machiavellian, but it wouldn't be the first time an ID was spoofed.



Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned....or The Liberal Party when it fails to get elected as the Government of Canada.  >


----------



## ballz (13 Mar 2012)

I was really hoping to find out some details yesterday. My guess is the EC is probably working out a deal with him/her to get the details of what happened / who was involved / etc, and we might not find out for a while.  

On another note... the only reason this person got caught was because they were stupid enough to do this from home. If they had went to a cafe with wifi, it seems to me like they'd have never been caught. It's a bit scary to think that such a serious (alleged) crime that could take away someone's right to vote could take place, so easily, by anyone, with such a slim chance of being caught.


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> I was really hoping to find out some details yesterday. My guess is the EC is probably working out a deal with him/her to get the details of what happened / who was involved / etc, and we might not find out for a while.
> 
> On another note... the only reason this person got caught was because they were stupid enough to do this from home. If they had went to a cafe with wifi, it seems to me like they'd have never been caught. It's a bit scary to think that such a serious (alleged) crime that could take away someone's right to vote could take place, so easily, by anyone, with such a slim chance of being caught.




And it appears that all honourable members, from all parties, agree with you, according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/watchdog-gets-boost-from-mps-as-it-closes-in-on-robo-call-suspect/article2367258/


> Watchdog gets boost from MPs as it closes in on robo-call suspect
> 
> STEVEN CHASE, RENATA D’ALIESIO AND DANIEL LEBLANC
> 
> ...




If it is to have new powers the I suspect that Elections Canada may be due for a shake-up. My impression is that Elections Canada is a bit of a sleepy _dumping ground_ for less than stellar public servants.


----------



## larry Strong (13 Mar 2012)

Apparently Pierre Poutine won't be outed any time soon.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120312/pierre-poutine-identity-still-unknown-120312/

Canadians will have to wait to find identity of Pierre Poutine



> CTVNews.ca Staff
> 
> Date: Mon. Mar. 12 2012 10:54 PM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Mar 2012)

> Meanwhile, opposition parties are demanding a formal inquiry into the robocalls scandal ... [but] ... Frank Valeriote, the Liberal MP for Guelph, has admitted his campaign used robocalls, but said it was an oversight that the calls did not say they were Liberal-financed.




Oh, well, that's OK, then ... it was just an _oversight_, but the Conservatives are evil incarnate. Yes, of course, that makes sense.


----------



## Rifleman62 (13 Mar 2012)

Passed in Parliament, but a law has to be written (eventually).


----------



## Rifleman62 (13 Mar 2012)

CTV: 





> It could be years before Canadians know the identity of "Pierre Poutine," the mysterious figure at the centre of the robocalls scandal.



ERC: 





> ...but the Conservatives are evil incarnate



will continue to be, of course conveniently , without proof, the guilty party.

Lets play "What will the media say".


----------



## larry Strong (13 Mar 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Oh, well, that's OK, then ... it was just an _oversight_, but the Conservatives are evil incarnate. Yes, of course, that makes sense.



Funny how that works eh!


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Mar 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Passed in Parliament, but a law has to be written (eventually).


.... or amended - here's the wording of the motion agreed to, from Journals:


> Pursuant to Order made Thursday, March 8, 2012, the House resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Christopherson (Hamilton Centre), seconded by Ms. Latendresse (Louis-Saint-Laurent), — That, in the opinion of the House, the government should, within six months, table amendments to the _Elections Canada Act_ and other legislation as required that would ensure that:
> 
> (a) Elections Canada investigation capabilities be strengthened, to include giving the Chief Electoral Officer the power to request all necessary documents from political parties to ensure compliance with the _Elections Act_;
> 
> ...


We'll see how different the system is by September 12 of this year, I guess.


----------



## armyvern (13 Mar 2012)

Defence Lawyer:  But the accused's wifi was unsecured, thus it could have been anyone beaming off this residential IP ... either that or temporary insanity - like myself.  8)


----------



## Kalatzi (13 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> I was really hoping to find out some details yesterday. My guess is the EC is probably working out a deal with him/her to get the details of what happened / who was involved / etc, and we might not find out for a while.
> 
> Based on their past track record its more likely to be or ever.  :


----------



## a_majoor (14 Mar 2012)

Liberals manage to score an "own goal" again:

http://www.therecord.com/opinion/editorial/article/686104--liberal-robocall-was-a-disgrace



> *Liberal robocall was a disgrace*
> 
> After weeks of throwing punches at the federal Conservatives over the notorious robocalls affair, the Liberals have succeeded magnificently in giving themselves a shining black eye.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Mar 2012)

> Valeriote has confirmed that one of his campaign volunteers made an automated telephone call prior to the election that urged people to vote Liberal because the riding’s Conservative candidate opposed abortion. Valeriote admits he approved the calls. He admits he knew that the person who made the calls used a phoney name — “Laurie McDonald.” And he also admits that the robocall did not but should have contained one vital piece of information — that it was designed and funded by his own Liberal campaign.



Where did you read/hear/see that info Thucydides?

Lets play"What Will the media say?"

Watch this to the end. The shoe is on the other foot, and foot does not like it.

http://ezralevant.com/2012/03/booting-the-media-party.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Where did you read/hear/see that info Thucydides?



Bolded in yellow, from the newspaper article, located above your post?


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Mar 2012)

Yes it was. I was being a smart ass. The info did not appear at the time to be available from the media big cheeses: CBC/CTV/G & M etc.


----------



## a_majoor (14 Mar 2012)

It's all good. Just be sure to pass the article around and tell all your friends. We don't really need the CBC or CTV to break stories nationally anymore, do we?


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Mar 2012)

Incredible. Well not really.

http://paulsrants-paulsstuff.blogspot.com/2012/03/bob-rae-and-susan-delacourts-idea-of.html

Wednesday, March 14, 2012

*Bob Rae And Susan Delacourt's Idea Of Transparency?*

So we have Bob Rae now boasting about how transparent the Liberals are being over the robocall controversy, and pointing out that the Liberals have turned over their records to EC regarding the calls they made and the scripts. And he's been backed up in print and on twitter by the usual suspects, including Susan Delacourt, who somehow always seems to infer, I doubt accidentally, that the CPC are not being forthright in releasing information to EC.

So how transparent are the Liberals really being? We already know they contravened EC laws with their own robocall in Guelph, ground zero you can call it. So I would think they themselves would be forthright in aiding the investigation, right? Think again!

*"Speaking to reporters later, Mr. Rae acknowledged the bounty of materials provided to Elections Canada did not include information on a Liberal robo-call in Guelph that attacked Conservative candidate Marty Burke for his stand on abortion.

“That was a local call that doesn’t have much to do with the national campaign,” Mr. Rae said.*

So a robocall that violated election laws need not be included in the investigation. Kind of reminds me of the transparency afforded justice Gomery in the Adscam inquiry. Most Canadians have no idea that the terms of reference did not allow Gomery to look at any sponsorship contracts already under investigation by the RCMP.

Now I know the lefty apologists will be along shortly to say the CPC are hiding something. To that end I give you this regarding the robocall investigation:

*"Elections Canada is combing through internal Conservative Party e-mails and database records as it tries to close in on Guelph robo-call scammer “Pierre Poutine,” sources said.
The election watchdog has gained access to the electronic logs that track who drew down information from the party’s database of voters in the riding of Guelph during the 2011 campaign. "

"Conservative Party spokesman Fred DeLorey said the party has willingly turned over confidential records to Elections Canada to help its probe in Guelph. The party has not been served with a court order requiring it to do so.
“We have proactively reached out to Elections Canada and offered to assist them in any way we can,” Mr. DeLorey said. “That includes handing over any documents or records that may assist them.”
*
That's called real transparency folks. Not some convoluted BULLSHIT that Rae and the media try to brainwash. The actual Canadians who are looking for democracy deserve better, something Delacourt and her brethren don't appear to care about.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Yes it was. I was being a smart ass. The info did not appear at the time to be available from the media big cheeses: CBC/CTV/G & M etc.



Why would it be. It's anti Liberal. The big cheeses aren't going to show their darlings in a bad light now, are they?


----------



## ModlrMike (15 Mar 2012)

More fingers pointing at Elections Canada:

Voter fraud concerns in east Toronto widespread


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2012)

It would appear, now that it is the liberals that seem to have the most documented history in the Robocall kerfuffle, Rae has changed tact. He doesn't want to talk about it anymore or answer questions on the wrongdoing and deception foisted on Canadians by the 'Natural Governing Party'. His party's lies, he considers mere 'oversights' : not worthy of any more press or discussion anymore.

He's totally pushed the current unfounded attacks off the table and has dragged out the F-35 story again. Accusing the CPC of everything short of a delivery date.

Just proves that the only agenda the (election) losers have is one of attack. No national vision or agenda. No way forward for the country, no means of solving any problems. No ideas or solutions. Just a lot of white noise from the peanut gallery. A kennel full of yappy, little purse dogs.

Not one single thing to qualify them to lead the country.

Just that they believe that they should still be in charge, because they think they're the only ones that should be allowed to lead.

Of course, the Media Party is all too willing to support them by dropping the Robocall blip and giving full coverage to Rae's latest fishing trip in Lake Bullshit.


----------



## a_majoor (16 Mar 2012)

It would be nice to give them a taste of their own medicine. Call local talk radio shows and keep asking questions about Liberal Robocalls. Write letters to the editor. Email your MP, and especially keep emailing Liberal MP's and Elections Canada demanding to know the truth about Liberal Robocalls.

Rubbing their faces in it is probably the best medicine. If they are smart, they will quit going off half cocked. Since that is not too likely, it may goad them into paroxysms of stupid even greater than today, totally alienating potential voters, contribute rs, volunteers and candidates. I'll go with either outcome.


----------



## a_majoor (16 Mar 2012)

Another verifiable Robocall complaint. I doubt Bob Rae or the Legacy Media want to touch this one:

http://paulsrants-paulsstuff.blogspot.com/2012/03/open-invitation-to-terry-milewski.html



> *An Open Invitation To Terry Milewski*
> 
> I see your most recent piece of journalism indicates that the victims of robocalls were voters who had previously indicated to the Conservative Party they would not be supporting them in the election. A few points Terry. I myself received a phone call telling me my polling location had changed. The CPC knew I was supporting them. I had confirmed that previously when contacted by the party. I had a Chris Alexander lawn sign. Close relatives worked on Alexander's campaign, being at the campaign office every day. I myself did some volunteer work.
> 
> ...


----------



## larry Strong (16 Mar 2012)

Well here we go.....
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from Sun News

*Elections Canada tosses 30,300 bogus 'contacts'*

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2012/03/20120316-160926.html



> OTTAWA - Elections Canada has whittled down a campaign of manufactured outrage over voting irregularities to 700 real or imagined complaints - a far cry from the 31,000 contacts it sifted through.
> 
> But the agency can't say how many of the mischief complaints it has received - through what a QMI Agency investigation found was a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters - are "fraudulent or improper." Nor would it say how many of the country's 308 ridings had complaints from the May 2 election.
> 
> ...




I really like this part "a campaign of manufactured outrage " . Funny that it has not shown up on any of the other news outlets..........


----------



## a_majoor (17 Mar 2012)

A Conservative candidate explains how things work at ground level:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/15/andrea-mandel-campbell-the-great-robocalling-scandal-is-a-fraud/



> *Andrea Mandel-Campbell: The great robocalling scandal is a fraud*
> National Post  Mar 15, 2012 – 9:44 AM ET | Last Updated: Mar 15, 2012 11:25 AM ET
> 
> Andrea Mandel-Campbell
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Mar 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> I really like this part "a campaign of manufactured outrage " . Funny that it has not shown up on any of the other news outlets..........


In fact, on CBC Radio's "The House" this morning, they went back to the "30,000 *complaints*" story line (I noticed last week, they generally stuck with the "contacts" terminology).


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Mar 2012)

A quite rational interpretation. Unfortunately, because she's conservative she will:

a) be called a liar;
b) be made fun of or otherwise denigrated;
c) become the subject of personal attacks; or
d) all of the above.


----------



## Kalatzi (21 Mar 2012)

And Here's Rick Mercer and his latest Rant. 

Maybe he will punch himself in the face. 

Not that a Royal Commission is likely to happen any time soon. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/21/rick-mercer-robocalls-rant_n_1369483.html?ref=canada#s800145&title=Joel_Robinson


----------



## a_majoor (23 Mar 2012)

And now the actual totals of complaints received right after the election. Notice the number of complaints received WRT the totally illeagal polling station set up at Guelph (guess by which party) vs complaints about calls:

http://plattytalk.blogspot.ca/2012/03/how-many-complaints.html



> *How many complaints??*
> 
> The Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections sent me an email today. I had originally sent a request to the Commissioners office on March 7/2012, asking if they could confirm the total number of true complaints they had received immediately following the election. So, here it is, fifteen days later and they send me a link to a report that came out last August 17th, long time to send a link, but, I guess they have a ton of emails to go through, I mean, Elections Canada would have no reason to suppress that information, would they? Anyway, here are the numbers that I found in the report they wrote up this past August.
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (24 Mar 2012)

More facts about the "robocalls" surface. If anything, this is starting to look like some sort of operation run by the LPC, which may explain why the issue has been dropped like a hot rock by the Legacy Media and the LPC in the House:

http://pragmatictory.blogspot.ca/2012/03/pierre-poutine-recorded-vote-liberal.html



> *Pierre Poutine Recorded "Vote Liberal" Message*
> 
> In an interesting turn of events, the infamous "Pierre Poutine" (allegedly responsible for the supposedly "greatest electoral fraud in Canadian history") also recorded a message supporting Liberal candidate Frank Valeriote in Guelph. I'm not sure why a Conservative operative would want to encourage people to vote Liberal, but the recording is attached to the account. Batman and Robin (aka Maher and MacGregor) have theorized that the purpose of the call (which was recorded but never sent out) was intended to annoy Liberal supporters. This argument is a bit hypocritical considering the Liberals themselves sent out thousands of robocalls encouraging people to vote Liberal, not all of which were legal according to election law. If sending out robot calls saying "vote Liberal" will discourage liberals from voting, then why would the Liberals send out their own robocalls encouraging people to vote Liberal?
> 
> ...


----------



## ModlrMike (24 Mar 2012)

So both the Globe and Mail and the National Post reported the same story... with vastly different conclusions. 

Judge for yourself:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pierre-poutine-taped-election-call-impersonating-liberals/article2379712/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/23/pierre-poutine-recorded-robocall-on-that-appeared-to-be-from-liberal-elections-canada/

Fog sanity sake don't read the comments.


----------



## larry Strong (27 Mar 2012)

I wonder what he will have to say....

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from CBC


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/03/26/pol-elections-canada-committee-thursday.html

[size=12pt]*Elections Canada chief to brief MPs on robocalls Thursday*[/size]



> Canadians may get more information on the fraudulent robocalls controversy as the head of Elections Canada appears before MPs later this week.
> 
> Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand will appear before the procedure and House affairs committee Thursday morning after putting out a statement asking for the chance to update MPs about the ongoing investigation in Guelph, Ont. coming out of the May 2, 2011 election.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rifleman62 (27 Mar 2012)

Larry Strong 





> I wonder what he will have to say....



Duh, we don't know who is responsible, while hinting it's an evil plot hatched personally by the scary Harper, left unsaid, is that the evidence points to the Liberals. The Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is not involved in any of the investigations,  will state categorically the money trail ends at the desk of that ruffian, Harper.

The Media Party, led by those stalwarts of ethical reporting, the CBC, will wet themselves without the use of a single hand or digit.


----------



## Kalatzi (29 Mar 2012)

Robo-call complaints received from about 200 ridings: Elections Canada

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/robo-call-complaints-received-from-about-200-ridings-elections-canada/article2385679/

Total of about 800 actual complaints, mostly Guelph, so on average 3 a riding?

They are continuing to investigate. Also making proposals to limit impact in next election, and make abuses easier to prosecute.


----------



## Sythen (24 Apr 2012)

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120424/robocalls-ekos-poll-council-canadians-120424/



> A survey conducted by a large Canadian polling firm shows a pattern of misleading phone calls during last May's federal election that appears to have targeted opposition supporters.
> 
> Ekos Research Associates says its survey found that Liberal, NDP and Green party supporters in seven key ridings were much more likely to report receiving a misleading telephone call in the final days of the election than Conservative supporters in the ridings.
> 
> ...



More on link. This is getting ridiculous.. As one of the comments points out:



> There is no need to use recalled information in the first place. Since there is a database of those who were called, there is factual data available as to who was called from the initiating numbers. Another piece of factual data will be how many of those who were called actually did vote. Bet this will be an example in social science classrooms for decades. Comparisons between those who said they were called, and those who actually were called, studies on those who claimed to be called, but weren't, those who remembered the calls and those who didn't etc. Where is the data showing who authorized the calls? The data showing who among those who remembered getting the calls voted anyway? It's easy to make statements. But why not use available data???????


----------



## a_majoor (11 Jun 2012)

Interesting take on the use of Robocalls in the Wi recall elections. Notice the pattern of creating some sort of narrative, then dropping it when events don't turn out as planned. This is circumstancial evidence that the entire Robocall thing was manufactured post ex facto (look upthread and see how few calls Elections Canada received _prior_ to the story breaking, for that matter consider how fast the story vanished once no factual evidence could be established for the supposed 10's of thousands of robocalls).

http://althouse.blogspot.ca/2012/06/whatever-happened-to-those-robocalls.html



> *Whatever happened to those robocalls telling people who'd signed the Walker recall petitions they didn't have to vote in the recall election?*
> 
> Everyone was talking about them on June 5th, the day of the recall election. The talk was of reports that some people said they got these calls. Now the election is over, and no one is talking about it anymore. Did anyone ever record one of these phone calls and put it up on YouTube? And where has all the outrage gone?
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (12 Aug 2012)

If there was justice in the world, this individual and the various enablers of the "Robocall" story would be served with monster lawsuits for defamation and made to pay huge amounts of damages. The legacy news agencies should also be forced to make public apologies (although promoting lies as their lead story for so long will further destroy their credibility and damage their ratings, the market will _indeed_ take care of them).

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2012/08/crucial-robocall-claimant-revealed-to.html



> *Crucial robocall claimant revealed to be a liar*
> 
> Does the name Annette Desgagne ring a bell?
> 
> ...


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Aug 2012)

So now the question is: what will this do to the case before the courts?


----------



## a_majoor (24 Aug 2012)

Well, the truth finally comes out:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/com100/2012/r120824.htm



> *Guelph Federal Liberal Association in violation of Unsolicited Telecommunications Rules*
> 
> Association pays $4,900 penalty, undertakes comprehensive compliance program
> 
> ...



as one blogger puts it:

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2012/08/liberals-caught-red-handed-in-robocall.html



> *Liberals caught red-handed in robocall scandal *
> Well, whatd'ya know?
> 
> Following months of baseless smear allegations against the Conservative Party, it turns out the illegal robocalls in Guelph were coming from the Liberals all along!
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Aug 2012)

I'll bet all the alleged robocall complaints to Elections Canada, from 'concerned citizens' drops off substantially from this point. 

Add another nail in the coffin of the 'Natural Governing Party' :


----------



## estoguy (8 Sep 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'll bet all the alleged robocall complaints to Elections Canada, from 'concerned citizens' drops off substantially from this point.
> 
> Add another nail in the coffin of the 'Natural Governing Party' :



And something in me says they won't be able to pull off a Conservative-type comeback.  A lot of people are tauting St. Justin as their savior, but I think its a mirage.


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Sep 2012)

Manitoba motormouth MP Pat Martin is learning that shooting from the lip and putting the mouth in motion before the brain is started has financial consequences according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/ndp-mp-seeks-publics-help-with-legal-bills-in-robo-calls-case/article4535075/


> NDP MP seeks public’s help with legal bills in robo-calls case
> 
> STEVEN CHASE
> OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
> ...




I have met Mr. Martin ... I washed my hands immediately afterwards; I found it very easy to dislike him; he comes across, especially in committees, as a bully and a blowhard. I sincerely hope he comes up empty and gets financially ruined because of his big mouth ~ it couldn't happen to a nicer more appropriate guy.


----------



## GAP (11 Sep 2012)

His riding is uber NDP....all CN/exCN area, plus a huge chunk of strident NDPers.....they love him.

Mind.....they loved Bill Blakie in his riding too, but it went conservative...


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Sep 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> His riding is uber NDP....all CN/exCN area, plus a huge chunk of strident NDPers.....they love him.
> 
> Mind.....they loved Bill Blakie in his riding too, but it went conservative...




There is a fundamental difference, in my opinion, between Bill Blaikie, who I also had the pleasure of meeting, and Pat Martin: Mr. Blaikie is a gentleman and, in his heart, a _public servant_ in the best sense of that word; Martin is neither ... arsehole is the word that pops to mind.


----------



## ModlrMike (11 Sep 2012)

He who lives by the sword... etc, etc. It will be interesting seeing how this plays out.


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Oct 2012)

Former Tory staffer Michael Sona, who was at the center of the _robocall_ thing for a while, has finally broken his silence in the Huffington Post. It's a long, somewhat sad, probably self serving interview, but this bit, near the end, stood out:

"Sona is also upset with Elections Canada.

He said a damning quote its investigator, Al Mathews included in court filings tarnished his reputation.

Mathews claimed a Conservative staffer had informed him that Sona had called headquarters to enquire about setting up a campaign of disinformation.

And several months later, Mathews acknowledged in a footnote of another production order, that the quote in question had never been said.

“Of course, that was not released on the front page of the newspaper, that was released in a footnote, 30 pages down in a 36 page court document from Elections Canada,” Sona said, visibly upset.

He wants a public apology but he knows he’s unlikely to get it."


Edit: punctuation


----------



## a_majoor (18 Dec 2012)

The technical term for what is happening here is spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) on election results and the political process. There is no case here based on the evidence, and indeed what case there is to be made about Robocalls was decided a long time ago with a finding and a fine directed against the Liberal campaign in Guelph. But the Progressives are determined to soldier on, knowing that the facts are mostly being ignored (how many articles or news reports emphasize there has not been a single affidavit to the effect someone was prevented from voting?) and they can continue to nurture the seeds of doubt in low information voter's minds:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/18/an-assault-on-democracy-robocalls-trial-ends-with-call-for-fresh-elections-in-six-ridings/



> *‘An assault on democracy’: Robocalls trial ends with call for fresh elections in six ridings*
> 
> Glen McGregor and Stephen Maher, Postmedia News | Dec 18, 2012 8:48 AM ET | Last Updated: Dec 18, 2012 8:57 AM ET
> More from Postmedia News
> ...


----------



## ModlrMike (18 Dec 2012)

If this were truly a non-partisan inquiry, then the Council of Canadians would have included Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup (5 votes in favour of NDP), and Winnipeg North (45 votes in favour of Liberals) in the action. That they have only contested ridings won by Conservative candidates speaks volumes. Unfortunately, most Canadians interested in the case will turn a deaf ear to the obvious.


----------



## a_majoor (11 Feb 2013)

What is to be done when the suposedly non partisan organs of government are corrupted? In the post just above we see how "neutral" the targeting is (if the NDP or Liberals win by a handfull of votes, everything is OK....), and the way the entire thing has played out is a singular record of mendacity:

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2013/02/robocalls-investigators-have-donated.html



> *Robocalls investigators have donated money to Liberals, Bloc Quebecois*
> 
> New information reveals not even the private contractors hired by Elections Canada to investigate the possible 2011 "robocalls" are neutral, non-partisan individuals.
> 
> ...



Your Member of Parliament is a good first start, but you can also contact EC directly:

Contact Us

General Questions

Do you have questions about Canadian elections? Have you checked our FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) for Electors? If you did not find the answer in these FAQs, please contact Elections Canada.

Mailing Address, Telephone, TTY and Fax

Use our E-mail Form or contact us directly at info@elections.ca.


----------



## a_majoor (25 Feb 2013)

More on the EC culture of corruption. It makes you wonder about what else EC has been doing, or if we can even trust election results anymore. When supposedly non partisan organs of the government are clearly no longer acting in a non partisan manner, then public trust in the system will start to collapse:

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2013/02/elections-canada-contracting-guidelines.html



> *Elections Canada contracting guidelines broken in hiring of partisan robocalls investigatiors*
> 
> Last week I revealed that many of the investigators hired by Elections Canada to investigate the robocalls case have made donations to the Liberals and Bloc Quebecois. These donations, anywhere from an individual donating $300 to an entire firm donating $12,660, demonstrate clear and decisive support for a political party - at the very time when neutrality and non-partisanship are essential to conducting a fair and balanced investigation.
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (27 Jul 2013)

You just can't make this stuff up. The very people who are calling for heads about the Robocalls turn out to be the perps:

http://bcblue.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/company-fined-for-illegal-robocalls-worked-on-council-of-canadians-robocall-lawsuit-against-conservatives/



> *Company fined for illegal robocalls worked on Council of Canadians’ robocall lawsuit against Conservatives*
> July 26, 2013 — BC Blue
> 
> 
> ...



It still makes me angry however; the Liberals were the ones fined for making illegal Robocalls in Guelph and a left wing communications company makes illegal Robocalls for the NDP, but who is always pointed at as the perps? Breaking the "narrative" and the power of the Legacy media to hold the truth hostage should be the defining issue for all free speachers. The Internet, Smartphones, consumer power and Samizdat are our weapons, so lets start using them.


----------



## Edward Campbell (24 Sep 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Manitoba motormouth MP Pat Martin is learning that shooting from the lip and putting the mouth in motion before the brain is started has financial consequences according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/ndp-mp-seeks-publics-help-with-legal-bills-in-robo-calls-case/article4535075/
> 
> I have met Mr. Martin ... I washed my hands immediately afterwards; I found it very easy to dislike him; he comes across, especially in committees, as a bully and a blowhard. I sincerely hope he comes up empty and gets financially ruined because of his big mouth ~ it couldn't happen to a nicer more appropriate guy.




More, today, on NDP MP Pat Martin, and _contributions_ to his "legal defence fund" to pay for the defamation suit (brought by _RackNine_) that he settled in Feb of this year, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Martin+loan+from+donations+from+labour+robocalls+defamation/8948493/story.html


> NDP MP Pat Martin got loan from NDP and donations from labour to pay robocalls defamation lawsuit
> 
> BY GLEN MCGREGOR, OTTAWA CITIZEN
> 
> ...




No comment.


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Sep 2013)

At least he can admit he's in bed with big unions, something the rest of the NDP will deny until they're blue in the face.

If I was a member of CUPE, I'd be pretty pissed off my union dues were paying the settlement of some idiot MP who ran his mouth off without any facts.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Sep 2013)

Solidarity forever.  Bless you, brother.


----------



## Rifleman62 (25 Sep 2013)

Even better this:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/24/matt-gurney-union-darling-pat-martin-misses-the-point-on-legal-fund-donations/

*Union darling Pat Martin misses the point on legal fund donations*

Matt Gurney-24/09/13

In 2012, NDP Pat Martin did something he no doubt wishes he could take back. It was during the height of the robocalls scandal, in which automatically dialled telephone calls played a recorded message that lied to voters in an Ontario riding about where their polling station was. The calls were pretty clearly a dirty trick played against the Liberals, who ended up winning, anyway. The calls originated from Racknine, an Edmonton-based company that has done work for the Tories in the past. Martin, full of outrage and indignation, went on the CBC and directly accused the company, and its owner, Matt Meier, of direct, willful involvement in the affair.

This was a serious mistake. First, because Meier, and his company, were only contracted to make the calls, and were not responsible for the content. Second, because Meier offered full co-operation with the investigation. And third, because Martin made these comments outside of the House of Commons, where he’d have been protected by privilege. Martin eventually issued a total surrender and complete apology, but it was too late. Meier sued, and knowing his goose was thoroughly cooked, Martin settled. The terms are unknown, but it’s believed the settlement cost Martin a very pretty penny, plus legal bills aplenty.

And that’s where things get interesting.

To pay this settlement, Martin took a loan from his party, the federal NDP. To repay this loan, he legal defence fund accepted a series of gifts from no less than 17 labour unions and local associations, including some of the big guns: the Canadian Labour Congress, the United Steelworkers and the Canadian Union of Public Employees. Unions are not permitted to make political donations, but these aren’t donations. According to Martin, they’re “gifts.”

This has apparently been reviewed by Parliament’s ethics watchdogs and passed muster. Personal gifts to a sitting MP are apparently fine, just not political donations. Oh. Good to know.

But Martin isn’t content just saying it’s legal. He went further, saying that it’s “ludicrous” to think that he’d be influenced by these donations. “If anybody thinks I could become more friendly to trade unions, then they don’t know me very well,” Martin said. “I’m a socialist and trade unionist and former head of the carpenters’ union in Manitoba.”

And Martin thinks that this is somehow better?

Influence peddling isn’t just about walking up to someone with an open mind and offering them so much cash that they come to see it your way. Helping someone who already agrees with you to stay out of trouble buys as much influence as a suitcase of money before a key vote. And in terms of distorting our democracy, how is having politicians cozying up to big money ahead of time, should “gifts” one day be needed, any better than just selling your vote to the highest bidder on a case-by-case basis?

Yes, Martin’s pro-union credentials are long established. But that’s not the point. The point is that his long-established union credentials are now resulting in large gifts to him, personally, at a time when he desperately needed the money. Maybe it won’t influence his future votes. But are we comfortable with cash rewards for past ones?

Let’s put this another way. Let’s say that the Natural Resources Minister or the Environment Minister received large gifts from oil and mining companies — since, gosh, they’d always been such big supporters of the industry. Let’s say that the Finance Minister received a big cash gift from a bank or mortgage lender — not because of what the Minister will do later, but because all the hard work he’s already put in. I suspect that most Canadians, not to mention Pat Martin and the NDP, would be outraged. And rightfully so.

The same should apply here. What Martin has done seems to be legal. But it shouldn’t be. And not breaking any laws or ethics regulations doesn’t make it right.


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## DBA (25 Sep 2013)

Reminds me of Unions buying ads at NDP conferences. At least that practice was killed. This one should be as well. 

The financial disclosure rules for Unions can't come soon enough. It is evident they will use any means they can to funnel money to politicians to gain and maintain influence. I wonder what is going on outside of public view.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Sep 2013)

>Personal gifts to a sitting MP are apparently fine, just not political donations.

Amazing.  Politicians won't live by the laws they pass to govern others.  (As a member of a corporation, try accepting a large "gift" from a vendor.)


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## Edward Campbell (26 Sep 2013)

But it's some kind of crime when Mike Duffy accepts a personal cheque, a gift, from Nigel Wright? Or is it because Duffy is a *C*onservative?


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## GAP (26 Sep 2013)

Yes, that is a bit of a saw, isn't it....


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## Edward Campbell (26 Sep 2013)

In fairness, while the police are looking at Duffy/Wright they are doing so mainly, I think, because there is so much that smells about Duffy's situation. It looks like fraud and it smells like fraud ~ although Wallin's point about the changing rules and so on is worth a pause for thought ~ so anything _'attached'_ to it must be suspect.

But this is why the AG must be allowed to look, deeply, into the HoC and Senate. It is not to ferret out misdeeds, rather it is to help Parliament establish clear, honest, transparent rules for spending *our* money. I don't begrudge parliamentarians a good living ~ remember, please, *why* the _People's Charter_ of 1838 is so important to our democracy ~ but I want to know that their benefits are proper.


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