# "Canadian Armed Forces creates new officer occupation for Physician Assistants"



## The Bread Guy (4 Jun 2016)

From the Info-machine ...


> The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) today announced the creation of a new officer occupation for Physician Assistants (PA).
> 
> This is the first time in CAF history that an occupation has gone from a non-commissioned member occupation to an officer occupation. There are 171 PAs in the CAF and the first to be commissioned and promoted to the rank of captain are as follows:
> 
> ...


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## RocketRichard (4 Jun 2016)

This is a good thing. Bravo Zulu to Danyal, Patrick,Raymond and Mario. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## caocao (4 Jun 2016)

Interesting, SRCP I assume for the CWOs/CPO1?  What about the rest, are they going to all CFR to this new occupation?


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2016)

caocao said:
			
		

> Interesting, SRCP I assume for the CWOs/CPO1?  What about the rest, are they going to all CFR to this new occupation?



Does COT apply? Its a unique circumstance.


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## dapaterson (4 Jun 2016)

It's not SCRP or CFR.  PAs complete a program I believe with the University of Nebraska, and presumably will be OT'd and commissioned on completion of the training.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Jun 2016)

caocao said:
			
		

> . . .   What about the rest, are they going to all CFR to this new occupation?



If that, then who's going to be the Pl WOs, CSMs and RSMs (or equivalent depending on the type of unit/element)?  Will former 6Bs/PAs who have already been CFRed to HCA be allowed to OT to the new occupation?  Can civilian qualified PAs be allowed to enrol as DEOs?  Is this going to be open UTPNCM (or ROTP) for attendance at one of the few university programs in Canada?


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## Cansky (4 Jun 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If that, then who's going to be the Pl WOs, CSMs and RSMs (or equivalent depending on the type of unit/element)?  Will former 6Bs/PAs who have already been CFRed to HCA be allowed to OT to the new occupation?  Can civilian qualified PAs be allowed to enrol as DEOs?  Is this going to be open UTPNCM (or ROTP) for attendance at one of the few university programs in Canada?



My understanding is yes to most of what you ask Blackadder.  Those who didn't want to become PAs where stopped at Sgt, they now can progress. There will be no more PAs in the NCM ranks they will soon only exist in the officer ranks just like in the US.  Those PA who don't want to be commissioned will not be employed as PAs.  This will also open the profession to direct entry in the future as direct entry couldn't occur under the old structure. I don't think those who are former PAs that are HCA will be allowed to OT, as most of those are the old PA program (9 month 6a & 6b), unless they are willing to take the 2 year program.  Part of that is because the grace period to write the CAPA certification exam for those has passed 2 yearsish ago. Eventually I suspect the profession will be UTPM open to all.


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If that, then who's going to be the Pl WOs, CSMs and RSMs (or equivalent depending on the type of unit/element)?



As I understand things, the MedTech occupation progression has undergone a complete renewal. 

Normal progression from Pte to Sgt. At the Sgt level, the member is merit recommended for PA training as previously happened. If the member declines, then they stay as a MedTech and potentially progress to CWO as in any other trade.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Will former 6Bs/PAs who have already been CFRed to HCA be allowed to OT to the new occupation?



Those that have commissioned as HCA would probably have to make an individual case. It might depend on how long they have been out of clinical practice. 



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Can civilian qualified PAs be allowed to enrol as DEOs?



Probably, but it's very early days yet. The CF is currently able to meed its needs internally. 



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Is this going to be open UTPNCM (or ROTP) for attendance at one of the few university programs in Canada?



Again, possibly. The CF would have to establish the minimum education requirements first. There are both Master and Baccalaureate programmes available, so there's no single standard yet.


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## Armymedic (4 Jun 2016)

My next promotion, sometime in the next yr.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If that, then who's going to be the Pl WOs, CSMs and RSMs (or equivalent depending on the type of unit/element)?  Will former 6Bs/PAs who have already been CFRed to HCA be allowed to OT to the new occupation?  Can civilian qualified PAs be allowed to enrol as DEOs?  Is this going to be open UTPNCM (or ROTP) for attendance at one of the few university programs in Canada?



The "holes" are going to be filled with other medical cap badge wearing trades, and dental to give all a chance to progress. 1Cdn Fd Hosp next RSM will be Dental. I believe the new Training Center RSM is a Lab Tech.

As far as civilians PA DEO, it's possible now, but not for a couple yrs.


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## Armymedic (4 Jun 2016)

BTW criteria to comission is being CAPA certified. Also, I believe you may need to have a degree, which all CAF  PA graduates since 2009 hold.


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## Cansky (4 Jun 2016)

Modlrmike have to disagree on one point.  The sooner the CAF can get direct entry PAs the better, CAF hasn't been able to meet the need for PAs for many years.  Mostly due to the age and time in most PAs have when they reach the course.  When I retire 2 years ago they lost 22 PAs that year due to retirement and where already severely short on manning.


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2016)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> Modlrmike have to disagree on one point.  The sooner the CAF can get direct entry PAs the better, CAF hasn't been able to meet the need for PAs for many years.  Mostly due to the age and time in most PAs have when they reach the course.  When I retire 2 years ago they lost 22 PAs that year due to retirement and where already severely short on manning.



Kirsten, only proves my distance from the coal face after 9 years.

However, the entry level pay is going to be about 70K, well short of what we make in MB, so I wager the CF will have a bit of a struggle on this front.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2016)

Would a recruitment allowance for PAs help even that gap? If you get a good chunk to pay off schooling, might be beneficial.


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## medicineman (4 Jun 2016)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> BTW criteria to comission is being CAPA certified. Also, I believe you may need to have a degree, which all CAF  PA graduates since 2009 hold.



Those of us without the degree will have to have one within the next few years...I'm still laughing thinking of Dan B as an officer.  Of course, that's no worse than me being one either I guess.  At least some of the creatures in my brigade won't be looking down their noses at me as much...MTF.

MM


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Would a recruitment allowance for PAs help even that gap? If you get a good chunk to pay off schooling, might be beneficial.



Unlikely. Equilibrium doesn't occur until max incentive Major.


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2016)

Out of curiosity, I checked the Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre. A PA made $124,106.42. Not sure if that is the highest or not?


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## dapaterson (4 Jun 2016)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Kirsten, only proves my distance from the coal face after 9 years.
> 
> However, the entry level pay is going to be about 70K, well short of what we make in MB, so I wager the CF will have a bit of a struggle on this front.



Except if the CAF is paying you for two years, and paying your tuition and fees on top of it, then a few years below market salary is not unreasonable.  If you'd rather have zero income for that time, pay your own tuition and books, and then have to seek out an entry level job...


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## medicineman (4 Jun 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, I checked the Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre. A PA made $124,106.42. Not sure if that is the highest or not?



They might have been there awhile and getting OT...starting wage in ON is about 15-20 lower than here at ~ 70k.  THe funding model there is right out to lunch, which is half the issue.  The other part is we're regulated here and unionized.

MM


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2016)

Very impressive!

The Bachelor of Science Physician Assistant degree (BScPA) is a full-time professional, second-entry undergraduate degree program, based in the Department of Family and Community Medicine (DFCM) in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Toronto (U of T).
http://www.paconsortium.ca/about-faculty-medicine/homepage


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Very impressive!
> 
> The Bachelor of Science Physician Assistant degree (BScPA) is a full-time professional, second-entry undergraduate degree program, based in the Department of Family and Community Medicine (DFCM) in the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Toronto (U of T).
> http://www.paconsortium.ca/about-faculty-medicine/homepage



The UofM and UNMC programs are Masters programmes. 

When people ask, I say that I have a degree in medicine at the Masters level rather than the doctoral level. Most understand it in that context.


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## Blackadder1916 (5 Jun 2016)

> . . . There are 171 PAs in the CAF . . .



If there are 171 establishment positions for PAs as NCMs, how many positions will there be for officers?  Will only those current positions that can be identified as "hard clinical" or independent duty (ships, recruiting centres, Alert, etc) be converted to officer or is the medical world getting a bunch of PYs to accommodate the commissioning of all PAs?


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Jun 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If there are 171 establishment positions for PAs as NCMs, how many positions will there be for officers?  Will only those current positions that can be identified as "hard clinical" or independent duty (ships, recruiting centres, Alert, etc) be converted to officer or is the medical world getting a bunch of PYs to accommodate the commissioning of all PAs?



All PAs in the CF will now be Officers. They are just phasing the commissioning/promotion, starting with the CWOs (and MWOs next year, WOs in 2019) to keep the merit listing from getting all messed up (or so I was told).


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## medicineman (5 Jun 2016)

Then there is me and a few others they haven't figured out yet...since the MOSID actually doesn't exist in the P Res per se.  I might see my commission as my second retirement present or might get it this year when I get my crown back, lol.

MM


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## Armymedic (5 Jun 2016)

There will be 105 PA officers positions. All Reg F.

MWO will commission as Capt. Currently serving WO will be granted equivalent Lt E pay and seniority. (If selected, it is not automatic)

New PA will become Lt, once CAPA certified, the Jan following the completion of thier course.


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## Nudibranch (5 Jun 2016)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Unlikely. Equilibrium doesn't occur until max incentive Major.



Full equilibrium isn't necessary, since the benefits and pension would be thought of as well; for ex, any MO who can do ER or hospitalist is not at equilibrium in the CAF, but docs fund their own retirement civi-side. So a CAF pension is part of the compensation consideration for anyone deciding to join/stay.

But it does have to be within the ballpark of civi. You can undercut the civi salary somewhat, but not too much.


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## medicineman (5 Jun 2016)

They're going to do something for us Molitia types too - had to sign my election awhile back.  

MM


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## JRBond (5 Jun 2016)

Have there been any talks of opening up the PA occupation to non-medtechs? I know of a few nurses out there (myself included) who have considered getting out to get our Masters to be NPs, but if we had the opportunity to do the PA course there may be incentive to stay in.


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## GINge! (6 Jun 2016)

That's a good question. I wonder if it would be a matter of a VOT and PLAR (plus the delta in course load)?


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## Armymedic (6 Jun 2016)

JRBond said:
			
		

> Have there been any talks of opening up the PA occupation to non-medtechs? I know of a few nurses out there (myself included) who have considered getting out to get our Masters to be NPs, but if we had the opportunity to do the PA course there may be incentive to stay in.



Yes, it's been discussed, and no, not happening in the near future. PA wil stay a NCO fed trade for the next couple yrs, until the Med Tech trade is sorted and stabilized, and the program is parcelled out to civilian faculty.


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