# Recording mileage toward Troop Lift qualification



## Rheostatic (8 Dec 2007)

Do any standardized forms exist for recording mileage toward one's Troop Lift qualification? I'd like to save myself some future headaches and get it right the first time.


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## patt (8 Dec 2007)

Trip tickets usualy as used to show how much milage you have gotten.


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## Rheostatic (8 Dec 2007)

I suppose you're right, but as i understood it, the qual requires 1000 km of supervised safe driving, so I figured there was some form or log for someone to sign.


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## riggermade (8 Dec 2007)

And don't forget once you can carry troops you have to do hours to keep the qualification....causes a nightmare when you are trying to do an Ex and nobody can tpt the troops


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## eurowing (8 Dec 2007)

Really???  I should laugh, but I just can't.  So it is not just the Air Force regulating itself out of capabilities.  It used to be that being a qualified driver was enough.


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## riggermade (8 Dec 2007)

I believe if the regs are read there has too be so many Km's put on each vehicle to stay qualified...can't remember the timeframe but from an Ops point of view it was a nightmare


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## Rheostatic (8 Dec 2007)

That's fine, there's only one veh I'll be using to carry more than 2 passengers, the MLVW.


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Dec 2007)

Hmmm.... never had to worry about millage for troop lift. I got my troop lift after one year of driving.


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## 241 (8 Dec 2007)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> I suppose you're right, but as i understood it, the qual requires 1000 km of supervised safe driving, so I figured there was some form or log for someone to sign.



As far as I know, driver mileage is logged with the FMS (Fleet Management System) now, you just have to ensure that your name is on the trip ticket and that your TPT rep actually enters you name and the end mileage.  Also wouldn't be a bad idea to keep track of the dates you drive and the detail # on the trip tickets to make it easier for you to prove your mileage if it is not properly logged on the FMS


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## TN2IC (9 Dec 2007)

Ah, I have been summoned by the great Gods of this site to answer this question.

OK guys... one of the SME is here. 241 is pretty well bang on. It will be on the FMS system under the person profile. But usually I bring a MSE log book just in case the dispatcher is lazy on closing my work ticket. I have known a few folks that place 1 hr as driving time, instead of 5-6 hours. Which then goes on my record. It's not fair.

Just remember the boxes under defects (I think) "Type, From, To, Qty" Make sure to fill those out too. 
       Type        From              To              Qty
ie" [troops][Argus Range][ H21 Barracks]    [18]


I honestly think the 500 km rule is pretty lame to keep the trooplift. I know for my bus it's a 1000km without troops and a 1000km with troops. Before I can do the road test. And same applies for 15 pax up to 46 pax.




> Do any standardized forms exist for recording mileage toward one's Troop Lift qualification? I'd like to save myself some future headaches and get it right the first time.



May be ask your TPT rep for a log book. If you are in Kingston, go and visit Base TN there. I know the boys there will help. If you can't drop me a PM and I"ll see what I can do.


Well I hope I answer all your questions there.
Have a good day.
Schultz


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## X-mo-1979 (9 Dec 2007)

Or walk into your regimental transport cell and tell them to put it on.We sent a few guys over to do it once as we were getting ready for a range and no one was qualified under these rules.

Usually they just throw it on there anyway.


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## geo (9 Dec 2007)

241 & Schultz..
While the FMS is supposed to, in concept, track the mileage of drivers, this supposes that the driver is a Reg & that he stays to his one vehicle.

Reserve drivers who work during the summer in schools & bases & esp at their units where they are pool drivers really aren't covered by the FMS system.  

I had to review an incident where a MLVW driver erred and tossed a passenger out of the back... The passenger did not get seriously injured but, the whole Trooplift question came up.  FMS has it's bugs.

In the end, if there is doubt, a road safety supervisor is supposed to take the driver out & determine if the fella is (or isn't) safe.


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## TN2IC (9 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Reserve drivers who work during the summer in schools & bases & esp at their units where they are pool drivers really aren't covered by the FMS system.



         I know of a few dispatchers that do not record some PRes "pool members". I was that PRes member at one time that missed a lot of km's due to it. But even working in ARTS or weekend tasks. I still has enough for trooplift. And to keep it at that. Thanks to my *LOG BOOK.* I even log the 4km runs on the 15 pax, these days. Why? To record it in case MSE Safety has something to say. Or to show my boss my driving hours are up.

           If your work ticket says *"A Cpl"* as a user name, return it and ask for your name on the work ticket. It is the only wave to have it punch into the system. I don't mean cross out the *"A Cpl"* but print a new one off with your name on it with your SN. It shows your name is in FMS then. It only takes a few seconds for the dispatcher to do it. 

This may be a silly thing for some folks, but it may bite you in the rear someday.
Just record everything to cover yourself. 
Only person your going to screw over is yourself, if you don't record.


Regards,
Schultz   ;D


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## TN2IC (9 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Or walk into your regimental transport cell and tell them to put it on.We sent a few guys over to do it once as we were getting ready for a range and no one was qualified under these rules.
> 
> Usually they just throw it on there anyway.



True some TPT cells will do that. But if something happens, someone will pay. Not MSE Safety, but the judge will give out the lashes.
Sorry to pee on your parade. I just wanted to inform everyone on that issue before something wrong happens to them. I know sometimes it can be hard to get these km's at times. And I understand the view of the user. 

Regards,
Schultz


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## TN2IC (9 Dec 2007)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... never had to worry about millage for troop lift. I got my troop lift after one year of driving.



Here's one Geo..

My Sapper friend here... Class A and B... PRes.. and he has his trooplift one year afterwards.
Sorry Nfld Sapper to use you as an example. But it fits the bill.

Chimo.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Dec 2007)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Here's one Geo..
> 
> My Sapper friend here... Class A and B... PRes.. and he has his trooplift one year afterwards.
> Sorry Nfld Sapper to use you as an example. But it fits the bill.
> ...



:gunner:

But in all fairness I did log over 1000km within a month of getting my 404's lol


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## geo (9 Dec 2007)

Schultz & NL Sapper,
Don't get me wrong, am not trying to diss any driver.  I just pointed out that the FMS system has some huge gaping holes in it.  
Road safety boys have set this rule for 1000 km per year min to retain Tp Lift - but they have not established any effective system to maintain it - without hamstringing most reserve drivers doing unit training.  What's the point of making a rule if you don't enforce it OR don't provide the tools with which to monitor it.  Pointing to FMS isn't good enough for me if they intentionally or unintentionally excluded the reservists who use the same rolling stock and carry warm bodies in back.


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## 241 (9 Dec 2007)

Geo, maybe I am not understanding what you are saying but are you trying to say that reservist's are not on the FMS?


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Schultz & NL Sapper,
> Don't get me wrong, am not trying to diss any driver.  I just pointed out that the FMS system has some huge gaping holes in it.
> Road safety boys have set this rule for 1000 km per year min to retain Tp Lift - but they have not established any effective system to maintain it - without hamstringing most reserve drivers doing unit training.  What's the point of making a rule if you don't enforce it OR don't provide the tools with which to monitor it.  Pointing to FMS isn't good enough for me if they intentionally or unintentionally excluded the reservists who use the same rolling stock and carry warm bodies in back.



Geo I hear you loud and clear and I see what you mean.


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## geo (10 Dec 2007)

241...
Most reserve units only have a couple of vehicles and a  pool of drivers who will use same... not an assigned vehicle.
Reservists are entered into FMS in that they control the issue of 404s. road accidents, etc but, not on a day to day basis
Reserve unit vehicles aren't really tracked in FMS


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## Harris (10 Dec 2007)

I am %99 sure my drivers time is not entered into any system,  For example we have Platoons at three seperate locations, each with their own vehicle.  Two of the three locations don't even have a connection to the DIN.  So I'm quite confident that none of the various drivers time is entered.  I'll confirm with my tpt MCpl.  Normally we use the 1 year of driving experience to allow troop lift.


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## geo (10 Dec 2007)

Given the sit, LFQAs battle school will, upon receiving their draft of reserve drivers in May, will review the driver's 416 and interview each driver.  If there is any doubt, they take him/her out for a drive and make a decision.  Possibly put him on a stores truck for the 1st few weeks while they observe him... possibly let him loose and allow troop lift right away.


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## TN2IC (10 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> 241...
> Most reserve units only have a couple of vehicles and a  pool of drivers who will use same... not an assigned vehicle.
> Reservists are entered into FMS in that they control the issue of 404s. road accidents, etc but, not on a day to day basis
> Reserve unit vehicles aren't really tracked in FMS




I see where you are coming from. A lot of "user" units have standing/recurring details that last for the month. Also known as a monthly detail. Recording user drivers is the fall back on that system. I see a huge gap in that issue. FMS still has it bugs. I believe that TPT rep shouldn't follow this way. But this is how some things work.

I wish I run Ottawa sometimes. But it still draws down to the driver, himself. To record his km's. Even if it's one silly little run per day. Every km counts. And it counts towards your Safe Driving Pin too.


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## 241 (10 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> 241...
> Most reserve units only have a couple of vehicles and a  pool of drivers who will use same... not an assigned vehicle.
> Reservists are entered into FMS in that they control the issue of 404s. road accidents, etc but, not on a day to day basis
> Reserve unit vehicles aren't really tracked in FMS



Ok not really understanding what you are saying here, am I just waisting my time turning on the computer, logging onto FMS and printing off a trip ticket since apparently none of my units drivers or vehicles are tracked????  And looking at some of my drivers "files" on the FMS I see that most of them do have mileage/hours tracked on there so perhaps one of us is miss informed.


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## TN2IC (10 Dec 2007)

241 said:
			
		

> Ok not really understanding what you are saying here, am I just waisting my time turning on the computer, logging onto FMS and printing off a trip ticket since apparently none of my units drivers or vehicles are tracked????  And looking at some of my drivers "files" on the FMS I see that most of them do have mileage/hours tracked on there so perhaps one of us is miss informed.



I think it is at the Brigade level deal. I know one brigade that does the montly work tickets for their units. Only ones that don't are the SVC BN's. Makes you think.


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## Sig_Des (10 Dec 2007)

Sidenote, Schultz, as it just so happens, I was talking with my Tpt Reps about this earlier today. Is there now, or ever have been, an age requirement of 25 for Tp Lift?


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## 241 (10 Dec 2007)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> I think it is at the Brigade level deal. I know one brigade that does the montly work tickets for their units. Only ones that don't are the SVC BN's. Makes you think.



I know that for us in 78 Fd Bty In Red Deer our Blue Fleet (2 9 Pax Vans and a Cube Van) are on monthly trip tickets that ASU Calgary assigns, as for our green fleet myself and another MCpl "dispatch" (for lack of better wording) and do print of Trip Tickets and enter drivers info, either at time of issue or on return, and ensure to accurately enter there mileage as well


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## geo (10 Dec 2007)

241
It's possible that western Reserve units are meticulous about recording all the mileage individual drivers operate MSE - all I can say is - good for you.  At present, or certainly up till last year (year of Investigation I was working on) in LFQA, Reserve units did not track.  As I am in the J1 shop, I don't usually have much to do with MSE & FMS  - but I would be surprised that LFQA is any different than most regions.


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## 241 (10 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> 241
> It's possible that western Reserve units are meticulous about recording all the mileage individual drivers operate MSE - all I can say is - good for you.  At present, or certainly up till last year (year of Investigation I was working on) in LFQA, Reserve units did not track.  As I am in the J1 shop, I don't usually have much to do with MSE & FMS  - but I would be surprised that LFQA is any different than most regions.



Wasn't trying to say that we where "meticulous" at anything, from one of your previous statements I was lead to believe that you where saying that PRes troops and equipment where not logged on the FMS, no perhaps I misunderstood you but "Reserve unit vehicles aren't really tracked in FMS" isn't that unclear to me.  And looking at some of our vehicles on there it seems that every maintenance visit is logged in the FMS.  So not really sure what is was that you where trying to say.


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## TN2IC (10 Dec 2007)

Scrooge_Des said:
			
		

> Sidenote, Schultz, as it just so happens, I was talking with my Tpt Reps about this earlier today. Is there now, or ever have been, an age requirement of 25 for Tp Lift?




17 is the age for us MSE Ops (935)
and 18 and over for the rest. Don't ask. It's in the TD.

Director Transportation (D Tn) 
Transportation Manual 

A-LM-158-005/AG-001/TD 515 (2)

REFER: Figure 1 Table of DND Driver/Operator Permits – Age Based Eligibilities and Restrictions

Regards,
Schultz


A-LM-158-005/AG-001/ "DIN ACCESS ONLY"


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## geo (10 Dec 2007)

241

Certainly the vehicles are recorded in FMS, they are part of the global fleet and their service is dependent on basic info being recorded.  Reserve drivers are in FMS as well.... cause Road safety tracks qualifications and renewal time...

That having been said, most reserve units have a tendency to work with such things as Standing details & Monthly dispatches.  When the vehicle goes into the field on an Ex, the vehicle is assigned to one driver.... though I have seem several drivers behiind the wheel - filling in and doing their best to make things work.

If FMS works great out in Alberta, good for you.....


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## 241 (10 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> 241
> 
> Certainly the vehicles are recorded in FMS, they are part of the global fleet and their service is dependent on basic info being recorded.  Reserve drivers are in FMS as well.... cause Road safety tracks qualifications and renewal time...
> 
> ...



Ok still not really sure what you where saying before but I am sure its not a big deal


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## Sig_Des (10 Dec 2007)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> 17 is the age for us MSE Ops (935)
> and 18 and over for the rest. Don't ask. It's in the TD.
> 
> Director Transportation (D Tn)
> ...



Thanks


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## TN2IC (10 Dec 2007)

Scrooge_Des said:
			
		

> Thanks



No problem. Anytime my friend.


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## chrisf (10 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> 241
> 
> Certainly the vehicles are recorded in FMS, they are part of the global fleet and their service is dependent on basic info being recorded.  Reserve drivers are in FMS as well.... cause Road safety tracks qualifications and renewal time...
> 
> ...



FWIW, the only time I (personally) have seen "monthly" trip tickets have been with civvie pattern "duty" vehicles, that's within the comm-res. All SMP vehicles have been issued  on per detail trip tickets, to a specific individual. That being said, the name of the driver on the trip ticket isn't always nessascarily the only driver.... I once had to operate 4 different MLVWs all at once as the only available MLVW driver... all were platoon vehicles, though the platoon drivers were tied up elsewhere... as each was loaded I'd drive it for unloading, and bring back an empty one... most secondary drivers unfortunately usually *don't know*, or *don't bother * to note their kilometers on the trip tickets.

Out of curiosity, as I'd like to maintain my troop lift, and I really should have started a log book a while back, are MSE log books a standard sort of thing, or will a simple notepad suffice?


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## 241 (10 Dec 2007)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> FWIW, the only time I (personally) have seen "monthly" trip tickets have been with civvie pattern "duty" vehicles, that's within the comm-res. All SMP vehicles have been issued  on per detail trip tickets, to a specific individual. That being said, the name of the driver on the trip ticket isn't always nessascarily the only driver.... I once had to operate 4 different MLVWs all at once as the only available MLVW driver... all were platoon vehicles, though the platoon drivers were tied up elsewhere... as each was loaded I'd drive it for unloading, and bring back an empty one... most secondary drivers unfortunately usually *don't know*, or *don't bother * to note their kilometers on the trip tickets.
> 
> Out of curiosity, as I'd like to maintain my troop lift, and I really should have started a log book a while back, are MSE log books a standard sort of thing, or will a simple notepad suffice?



To print off the trip ticket you don't need to have a driver, for example preparing for a Res ex you don't know what drivers you are going to have prior to everyone hitting the ground, so you can print of trip tickets for every vehicle the day before and then have them (or do it yourself) write there name and svc # where it says driver.  I personally enter the start mileage when I put the trip tickets in the vehicles, that way at the end of the ex/detail if the driver hasn't been diligent enough in his duties to enter his mileage I can still go out and get the end and then correctly log his/her mileage.  Like has been said its entirely on the shoulders of the person dispatching to ensure mileage/operating hours are logged, if they are "lazy" (for lack of better words) then its probably not going to happen and then they will be on of the first ones to bitch and moan when they don't have TP lift qualified drivers and such.


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## TN2IC (10 Dec 2007)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, as I'd like to maintain my troop lift, and I really should have started a log book a while back, are MSE log books a standard sort of thing, or will a simple notepad suffice?



Yes it does work. As long as you have Full CFR, veh type, Start/End and detail number. Date works too.


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