# RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’



## shawn5o

I didn't know Cdn police had such a symbol


*RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’*
DQ
By Douglas QuanVancouver Bureau
Sat., Oct. 10, 2020timer3 min. read

RCMP members across the country have been told in a memo they are no longer to wear or display symbols depicting a “subdued” Canadian flag with a blue stripe through it while on duty.

The “thin blue line” symbol, which has been used for years by police officers as a sign of solidarity and by their families to show pride, has come under growing scrutiny by critics calling for major police reform. Some say such symbols create an us-versus-them mentality and do not help foster trust in communities police are meant to serve.

Media reports from the United States to Australia indicate there have been concerns far-right groups and opponents of the Black Lives Matter movement have co-opted the symbol, as well.

“The note came out as a concern that it was appearing more often in images of on-duty Mounties,” RCMP spokesman Dan Brien told the Star on Friday night. “In some parts of the country, some of the cars actually have the sticker on them as well.”

While the symbol has been used to represent “membership or support for the police family” for years, “I acknowledge there are multiple interpretations of the symbol,” Brien said.

The memo was distributed to members Friday by Al McCambridge, the RCMP’s corps sergeant major in Ottawa who is responsible for dress, deportment, ceremonial protocols and RCMP traditions.

“In recent months, police services and police officers have been facing tremendous pressure. We have lost colleagues in tragic circumstances, and we have been a focal point in difficult public conversations about the role of police in our society. In these circumstances, it is natural to want to show support to each other and our colleagues across the law enforcement community,” the memo reads.

“The use of symbols, such as the subdued flag with a blue bar, has become widespread in North America as a sign of solidarity and support for police. While this may be common outside of a work setting, it is not an approved symbol and is not to be worn on our uniform or displayed on other equipment such as vehicles.”
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/10/09/rcmp-officers-told-not-to-wear-symbol-depicting-thin-blue-line.html


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## Kat Stevens

I really don't think it's a little patch of a flag with a line through it that perpetuates the "us vs them" mentality. I think it's professional looters, burners, and cop killers that do that. Oh, and the NFL, NBA, MLB and even the NHL are no help.


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## Jarnhamar

Target Up said:
			
		

> I really don't think it's a little patch of a flag with a line through it that perpetuates the "us vs them" mentality. I think it's professional looters, burners, and cop killers that do that. Oh, and the NFL, NBA, MLB and even the NHL are no help.



Don't forget the celebrities making a scene out of donating money to bail out looters and rioters - from their walled compounds patrolled 24/7 by armed guards.


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## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Don't forget the celebrities making a scene out of donating money to bail out looters and rioters - from their walled compounds patrolled 24/7 by armed guards.



Hollywood and pro sports are what we really should focus on defunding. Basically useless, and only serve as a distraction for the masses.


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## brihard

With everything going on in the police world generally and the RCMP specifically these days, this is a stupid fight for management to have picked. I’ve seen nothing so far but mockery and anger in reply.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Us vs them mentality.....yes, let's have cops and criminals on the same side,......because its 2020.


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## blacktriangle

Brihard said:
			
		

> With everything going on in the police works generally and the RCMP specifically these days, this is a stupid fight for management to have picked. I’ve seen nothing so far but mockery and anger in reply.



Not sure about Canada, but it seems some of the vendors of TBL items in the US actually use the proceeds to help officers and families in need. Is there an equivalent of the the Thin Blue Line Foundation in Canada?


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## daftandbarmy

reveng said:
			
		

> Not sure about Canada, but it seems some of the vendors of TBL items in the US actually use the proceeds to help officers and families in need. Is there an equivalent of the the Thin Blue Line Foundation in Canada?



It seems so https://www.thinblueline.ca/pages/about-us


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## lenaitch

shawn5o said:
			
		

> I didn't know Cdn police had such a symbol
> 
> 
> *RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’*
> DQ
> By Douglas QuanVancouver Bureau
> Sat., Oct. 10, 2020timer3 min. read
> 
> RCMP members across the country have been told in a memo they are no longer to wear or display symbols depicting a “subdued” Canadian flag with a blue stripe through it while on duty.
> 
> The “thin blue line” symbol, which has been used for years by police officers as a sign of solidarity and by their families to show pride, has come under growing scrutiny by critics calling for major police reform. Some say such symbols create an us-versus-them mentality and do not help foster trust in communities police are meant to serve.
> 
> Media reports from the United States to Australia indicate there have been concerns far-right groups and opponents of the Black Lives Matter movement have co-opted the symbol, as well.
> 
> “The note came out as a concern that it was appearing more often in images of on-duty Mounties,” RCMP spokesman Dan Brien told the Star on Friday night. “In some parts of the country, some of the cars actually have the sticker on them as well.”
> 
> While the symbol has been used to represent “membership or support for the police family” for years, “I acknowledge there are multiple interpretations of the symbol,” Brien said.
> 
> The memo was distributed to members Friday by Al McCambridge, the RCMP’s corps sergeant major in Ottawa who is responsible for dress, deportment, ceremonial protocols and RCMP traditions.
> 
> “In recent months, police services and police officers have been facing tremendous pressure. We have lost colleagues in tragic circumstances, and we have been a focal point in difficult public conversations about the role of police in our society. In these circumstances, it is natural to want to show support to each other and our colleagues across the law enforcement community,” the memo reads.
> 
> “The use of symbols, such as the subdued flag with a blue bar, has become widespread in North America as a sign of solidarity and support for police. While this may be common outside of a work setting, it is not an approved symbol and is not to be worn on our uniform or displayed on other equipment such as vehicles.”
> https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/10/09/rcmp-officers-told-not-to-wear-symbol-depicting-thin-blue-line.html



Back in September a Toronto Police Officer was reported a facing discipline for wear a TBL patch.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7322616/punisher-skull-patch-toronto-police-uniform/

Earlier, in July, the OPP Association created some controversy by flying the TBL flag at their head office.  They said it was part of a fundraising campaign for fallen police officers but the whole issue has been eerily silent of late (their excuse that the old Canadian flag was worn stuck me as a bit weak - they are quite literally across the highway from the largest flag manufacturer in Canada).

https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/controversy-surrounds-a-flag-flying-at-the-oppa-barrie-building-1.5041121

The TBL Canada website says nothing about fundraising or supporting anyone - just selling swag.

I'm old school enough to feel that a police force gets to say what its members look like.  It's the image of the force, not the individual.


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## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I'm old school enough to feel that a police force gets to say what its members look like.  It's the image of the force, not the individual.



We may be in the minority. But, I agree.


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## Haggis

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I'm old school enough to feel that a police force gets to say what its members look like.  It's the image of the force, not the individual.



My agency has come out prohibiting TBL masks locally, but not flags which many of us still have on our body armour. I don't see why one and not the other is verboten.


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## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> My agency has come out prohibiting TBL masks locally, but not flags which many of us still have on our body armour. I don't see why one and not the other is verboten.



I suspect the result of this will be more members wearing them than before.


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## RedFive

Brihard said:
			
		

> I suspect the result of this will be more members wearing them than before.



I can say that in my area, the Membership is pissed and blue line flags are being stuck to just about any available piece of velcro.

Personally, I'm still firmly in the "boots shall be polished, faces will be shaved, hair will be neat and body armour worn under the duty shirt" camp. However, I understand why that makes me a dinosaur, and out of touch with modern developments in duty gear. I also understand that the vast majority of stuff I'm given to carry can ride in the car until needed. I'm very junior in service and one of the only people in my peer group who believe in this/put it into action. Most of my colleagues look like brand new Pte and Tpr reservists with so much crap hanging off their body armour you might mistake them for ERT.

All that being said, my tourniquet pouch attached to the bottom of the drop leg for my CEW used to sport the camp flag of my reserve Regiment. For the foreseeable future, it will now carry a thin blue line patch.


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## lenaitch

RedFive said:
			
		

> I can say that in my area, the Membership is pissed and blue line flags are being stuck to just about any available piece of velcro.
> 
> Personally, I'm still firmly in the "boots shall be polished, faces will be shaved, hair will be neat and body armour worn under the duty shirt" camp. However, I understand why that makes me a dinosaur, and out of touch with modern developments in duty gear. I also understand that the vast majority of stuff I'm given to carry can ride in the car until needed. I'm very junior in service and one of the only people in my peer group who believe in this/put it into action. Most of my colleagues look like brand new Pte and Tpr reservists with so much crap hanging off their body armour you might mistake them for ERT.
> 
> All that being said, my tourniquet pouch attached to the bottom of the drop leg for my CEW used to sport the camp flag of my reserve Regiment. For the foreseeable future, it will now carry a thin blue line patch.



I am (was) also in the 'traditionalist' camp, but recognize that the amount of kit members are required to carry dictates that it simply cannot fit on a duty belt.  Whether it all has to be carried vs. just being available is largely a result of risk adverse policy makers and activist members who apparently believe that they are at war with the public.  My former force regularly fends off demands for things like bloused pants and ceramic plates.

When I was still working, there was an ongoing debate about whether ex-CAF members should be able to wear CAF badges, particularly jump wings, on their police uniform.  I get that they may be proud of them, but felt there is no nexus to their current uniform.  Sanctioned honours and awards - absolutely.  I lost track where it ended up, if resolved.

It creates a bit of a dichotomy.  If you are a rules follower, and your department comes out with a no TBL patch policy, what are you going to do?


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## blacktriangle

Anyone know where the push back against TBL items is coming from in your respective agencies? Is it internal, or is there external political pressure being applied? Gotta love it when there are real organizational and operational issues to deal with, and yet the focus is on making sure you don't have a particular flag or patch displayed.

For any of you that are unionized, does that give you any leverage to "protest" these sort of directives? Or are you just going to put them up regardless of the consequences? Not like they can fire all of you!

Perhaps they should just authorize a standardized, subdued TBL patch for wear instead of alienating everyone?


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## RedFive

I know full well the back blast generated by this, at least in the Federal police force, is generated by disdain for and anger at senior management. Hardly a day goes by they aren't in the news calling the membership systemically racist or sending our Force wide emails with silliness like banning the TBL flag before their political masters tell them to make it so. Only to come back and encourage pink, orange and other shirts for certain awareness days.

Meanwhile issued kit from the 25 year old jam o matic pistols they have run out of spare parts for to the cargo pants that make CADPAT pants look like skinny jeans, expired body armour that is a lower ballistic rating than issued by other agencies, massive staffing issues, especially in small Detachments, the list goes on. The new union has a massive task ahead of it calling out the nickle and dimeing of the RCMP into the Walmart of policing. Look at RCMP pay against any other major Police agency in Canada.

And the whole discussion about how the RCMP should get out of contract Policing...

I could go on but I'm on days off and don't need to think about this mess any more than I already do.


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## daftandbarmy

RedFive said:
			
		

> Meanwhile issued kit from the* 25 year old jam o matic pistols *they have run out of spare parts for to the cargo pants that make CADPAT pants look like skinny jeans, expired body armour that is a lower ballistic rating than issued by other agencies, massive staffing issues, especially in small Detachments, the list goes on. The new union has a massive task ahead of it calling out the nickle and dimeing of the RCMP into the Walmart of policing. Look at RCMP pay against any other major Police agency in Canada.



What's wrong with the pistols? I had no idea they were lemons.... 

That's one of the reasons I used to like a 'wheel gun' - 6 shots guaranteed.


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## Navy_Pete

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I'm old school enough to feel that a police force gets to say what its members look like.  It's the image of the force, not the individual.



I would agree with this, and argue that the TBL has become political, and really antagonistic in the US as people supporting TBL while protesting BLM.  I would probably argue that they aren't mutually exclusive, but not really here nor there. Surprised there isn't a blanket ban on additional non-issued patches in general TBH. When BLM and IdlenoMore activists are asking that they are treated the same as white people by the justice system, that seems like a pretty reasonable ask.  Personally I would see it as an aggressive response from an individual that has missed the point, as the TBL has become an oppositional position to take to counter BLM, and it's being used to justify frankly criminal BS like running over protestors. 

Plus it's also redundant. Of course an RCMP officer will support police/policing in general, but they have a union to act as their public spokesman, and shouldn't be doing it as part of their uniform. I don't see it as any different then CAF members being restricted from making political statements in public. If you want to wear political pieces of flair at work, go get a different job.


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## blacktriangle

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> What's wrong with the pistols? I had no idea they were lemons....
> 
> That's one of the reasons I used to like a 'wheel gun' - 6 shots guaranteed.



Maybe R5 is referring to the S&W that most used to carry? If they are still using that, I can see why maybe he doesn't feel super appreciated by management.  ;D


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## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> When I was still working, there was an ongoing debate about whether ex-CAF members should be able to wear CAF badges, particularly jump wings, on their police uniform.  I get that they may be proud of them, but felt there is no nexus to their current uniform.  Sanctioned honours and awards - absolutely.  I lost track where it ended up, if resolved.



Opposite situation in the US. eg: NYC restricts their 38,000+ police officers, 11,000 firefighters and 4,000 paramedics to wearing only departmental medals, ribbons, citations etc. awarded by the City on their Departmental uniforms. 

ie: Non-departmental medals, ribbons, patches etc. ( eg: military ) are not worn on City uniforms.

Not to suggest one way is better, or worse, for doing the same jobs. Just different. 





			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> If you are a rules follower, and your department comes out with a no TBL patch policy, what are you going to do?



Our department - not police - would suspend you. Nothing the union could do about it.


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## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> Our department - not police - would suspend you. Nothing the union could do about it.



Interesting, thanks. Would it be suspended with pay?


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## Jarnhamar

Just a guess, Black Lives Matter(tm) took aim at TBL because of how similar it may be to Blue Lives Matter. And anything other than the statement **Black** lives matter is racist. 

RCMP management decided pissed off _paid_ employees are a lot easier to handle than pissed off BLM.


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## mariomike

reveng said:
			
		

> Interesting, thanks. Would it be suspended with pay?



No.   But, first you would be warned, not to wear it ( or any unsanctioned thing ). If push came to shove, you would then get it in writing. Suspension would only be a last resort.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=mariomike] If push came to shove
[/quote]

Good thing everyone knows first aid  :rofl:


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## Bruce Monkhouse

RedFive said:
			
		

> , expired body armour



You gotta be kidding me....Ontario Corrections gets made to measure brand new ones every 5 years or we can refuse to do an outside/hospital escort.   And as far as I can remember, in the last 31 years, we've only had a firearm pointed at an officer one time.


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## Navy_Pete

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Just a guess, Black Lives Matter(tm) took aim at TBL because of how similar it may be to Blue Lives Matter. And anything other than the statement **Black** lives matter is racist.
> 
> RCMP management decided pissed off _paid_ employees are a lot easier to handle than pissed off BLM.



Thin blue line is actually just a private company making apparel and other swag, so someone is just doing this for profit.

Rather then ask why aren't they allowed to wear them, I would ask why should the RCMP or any other LE officer be allowed to wear them on their uniform?  I can also personally support the general aim of BLM and the general idea behind TBL and supporting LE, but wouldn't wear a morale patch for either because of the politics involved, and we're supposed to be apolitical. I would expect the cops to be the same in uniform.

I mean, I think generally lean more towards pagan religions, but would think twice about wearing Thor's hammer because of it's association with white supremacy. Given the overlap with the TBL and white supremacists in the US, it's hardly a neutral symbol. Also really hard to take them seriously when they start bringing in the Punisher symbol, who is antithetical to the notion of law and order and is really about an extreme reaction to the failure of the justice system. It really undermines any institutional message about reconciliation or anything else if they allow individuals to wear that with their uniform as it's impossible to de-link it from the general association it has from the original US origins and pop culture meanings (even if they aren't necessarily what it is supposed to represent).


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Except TBL has been around supporting law enforcement for as long as I can remember.
Long before BLM figured out how to make money and support no one.


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## trooper142

RedFive said:
			
		

> I know full well the back blast generated by this, at least in the Federal police force, is generated by disdain for and anger at senior management. Hardly a day goes by they aren't in the news calling the membership systemically racist or sending our Force wide emails with silliness like banning the TBL flag before their political masters tell them to make it so. Only to come back and encourage pink, orange and other shirts for certain awareness days.
> 
> Meanwhile issued kit from the 25 year old jam o matic pistols they have run out of spare parts for to the cargo pants that make CADPAT pants look like skinny jeans, expired body armour that is a lower ballistic rating than issued by other agencies, massive staffing issues, especially in small Detachments, the list goes on. The new union has a massive task ahead of it calling out the nickle and dimeing of the RCMP into the Walmart of policing. Look at RCMP pay against any other major Police agency in Canada.
> 
> And the whole discussion about how the RCMP should get out of contract Policing...
> 
> I could go on but I'm on days off and don't need to think about this mess any more than I already do.



Are you sure you're not an MP? Sounds an awful lot like the problems in that organization


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## brihard

reveng said:
			
		

> For any of you that are unionized, does that give you any leverage to "protest" these sort of directives? Or are you just going to put them up regardless of the consequences? Not like they can fire all of you!
> 
> Perhaps they should just authorize a standardized, subdued TBL patch for wear instead of alienating everyone?



The RCMP’s new union sent out a communique today to all members to the effect that they strongly oppose this move, and that they’ve bulk ordered Velcro patches featuring a blue line superimposed on the union’s logo (a Stetson hunt on a maple leaf). It’ll be in the same black/grey subdued colours. The union’s quite new, still establishing its credibility, and is making a point about management sending out a blast like this without engaging them first. They’re letting management know they’ve picked a dumb fight on this in terms of what they’re prioritizing during very difficult times for the profession.

The union has a ton on its plate, but management has handed them a perfect, simple issue to really galvanize support with.


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## blacktriangle

Brihard said:
			
		

> The RCMP’s new union sent out a communique today to all members to the effect that they strongly oppose this move, and that they’ve bulk ordered Velcro patches featuring a blue line superimposed on the union’s logo (a Stetson hunt on a maple leaf). It’ll be in the same black/grey subdued colours. The union’s quite new, still establishing its credibility, and is making a point about management sending out a blast like this without engaging them first. They’re letting management know they’ve picked a dumb fight on this in terms of what they’re prioritizing during very difficult times for the profession.
> 
> The union has a ton on its plate, but management has handed them a perfect, simple issue to really galvanize support with.



Glad to hear it.


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## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> The RCMP’s new union sent out a communique today to all members to the effect that they strongly oppose this move, and that they’ve bulk ordered Velcro patches featuring a blue line superimposed on the union’s logo (a Stetson hunt on a maple leaf).



That sounds reasonable ( to me ), if it is part of the official union insignia. 

I'm not a labour relations expert. But, I was a member of the same union local for over 36 years. In regard to union insignia on our uniforms, the key words were "public contact". We had the right to wear union insignia (lapel buttons ), and watches from the union to long term members. They had to be "small and non-distracting". You couldn't go around in public looking like walking billboards. 

In Toronto, police, fire, paramedic, and TTC vehicles are marked with exterior union insignia.


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## Remius

I am of the opinion that Police in general are losing the PR war.  Maybe this is one of those things that they think will help.  But honestly does the average joe civy notice?  It isn’t offensive as far as I can see or even that noticeable in my mind.  Seems like such a minor thing to be going after given the current climate of COVID, Manning issues and morale issues.  Seems like a waste of effort to enforce. 

Now, I can see why the Corp Sgt Major is reinforcing standards and dress regs etc.  Morale patches in the CAF is an issue as someone mentioned punisher badges and spartan helmets (not technically spartan but the association is there) etc etc.  And the RCMP is a far more regimented Force than most police forces. 

Question for any regular members of the RCMP,  and I guess this could apply to any uniformed force, are those patches or pins acceptable on a full dress uniform?  I guess what I am getting at is why is acceptable on one uniform and not another? 

Personally I see no issues with this patch.  But I also believe that an organisation can dictate how it wants to project its image.  Now if the organisation is out of touch with what may or may not be acceptable then I suppose that merits a conversation. 

If the the TBL symbol is important then has someone used the proper channels to make that an approved part of the dress regs?


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## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> But honestly does the average joe civy notice?



Perhaps the first time some noticed was during the Charlottesville white supremacist rally in 2017, when the TBL flag was flown alongside Confederate and Nazi flags.


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## Jarnhamar

What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant.


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## brihard

Remius said:
			
		

> I am of the opinion that Police in general are losing the PR war.  Maybe this is one of those things that they think will help.  But honestly does the average joe civy notice?  It isn’t offensive as far as I can see or even that noticeable in my mind.  Seems like such a minor thing to be going after given the current climate of COVID, Manning issues and morale issues.  Seems like a waste of effort to enforce.
> 
> Now, I can see why the Corp Sgt Major is reinforcing standards and dress regs etc.  Morale patches in the CAF is an issue as someone mentioned punisher badges and spartan helmets (not technically spartan but the association is there) etc etc.  And the RCMP is a far more regimented Force than most police forces.
> 
> Question for any regular members of the RCMP,  and I guess this could apply to any uniformed force, are those patches or pins acceptable on a full dress uniform?  I guess what I am getting at is why is acceptable on one uniform and not another?
> 
> Personally I see no issues with this patch.  But I also believe that an organisation can dictate how it wants to project its image.  Now if the organisation is out of touch with what may or may not be acceptable then I suppose that merits a conversation.
> 
> If the the TBL symbol is important then has someone used the proper channels to make that an approved part of the dress regs?



No. What has happened is that management has picked a stupid little fight and have come across as attacking our solidarity as a profession on the altar of ‘wokeness’. The organization as a whole is in crisis right now. Members are dramatically underpaid, our recruiting is suffering badly, detachments are understaffed, soft vacancies are buried in staffing statistics, and the grievance, promotional, harassment, and conduct systems are broken. That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.

The RCMP is now in a process of collective bargaining. The harassment process as it exists is being scrapped and rebuilt with the authority to find complaints founded or unfounded being taken away from the chain of command. Every member facing a code of conduct investigation/charge under the RCMP act is now being provided with a lawyer by the union in order to hold the disciplinary process accountable. A lot of things are slowly starting to change, and management and treasury board are on notice that some old ways of doing things are no longer going to fly.

The TBL patch issue is management picking a silly and dumb little fight. Total tone-deafness. Members have had enough. And no, this won’t extend to ‘punisher’ patches and dumb crap like that. As a union rep I’ve advised members that they should definitely take those off because we can’t do much to protect them from that.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Brihard]

The TBL patch issue is management picking a silly and dumb little fight. Total tone-deafness. Members have had enough. And no, this won’t extend to ‘punisher’ patches and dumb crap like that. As a union rep I’ve advised members that they should definitely take those off because we can’t do much to protect them from that.
[/quote]

I'm pretty tone deaf and even I can come up with a ton of reasons why police officers wearing a Punisher patch is ridiculous.


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## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant.



Probably harder to tell people not to wear it since it makes the patch have a nexus to union solidarity.

Thin blue line patches have been around for decades as an apolitical show of support for LEOs. No reason a simple Canadian Flag with a thin blue line through it shouldn't be allowed on the uniform.


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## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> No. What has happened is that management has picked a stupid little fight and have come across as attacking our solidarity as a profession on the altar of ‘wokeness’. The organization as a whole is in crisis right now. Members are dramatically underpaid, our recruiting is suffering badly, detachments are understaffed, soft vacancies are buried in staffing statistics, and the grievance, promotional, harassment, and conduct systems are broken. That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.
> 
> The RCMP is now in a process of collective bargaining. The harassment process as it exists is being scrapped and rebuilt with the authority to find complaints founded or unfounded being taken away from the chain of command. Every member facing a code of conduct investigation/charge under the RCMP act is now being provided with a lawyer by the union in order to hold the disciplinary process accountable. A lot of things are slowly starting to change, and management and treasury board are on notice that some old ways of doing things are no longer going to fly.
> 
> The TBL patch issue is management picking a silly and dumb little fight. Total tone-deafness. Members have had enough. And no, this won’t extend to ‘punisher’ patches and dumb crap like that. As a union rep I’ve advised members that they should definitely take those off because we can’t do much to protect them from that.



Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item 

RCMP union loses 'hot button' battle over free parking spaces in Victoria and Whistler

Labour tribunal rejects union's claim that RCMP changed employee parking policy

Members at Vancouver Island's RCMP headquarters call it "scramble parking."

The region's chief superintendent told a labour tribunal that no-charge spaces in and around the Victoria HQ were at such a premium that staff would regularly scour the parking lot for spaces from the windows during the workday.

And when one came up, they pounced. 

"They would leave their workstations or meetings, exit the building, and move their personal vehicles into the vacant spots," the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations and Employment Board said in one of two recent decisions devoted to the problem.

"Parking is a hot button issue. For those who must drive to work, the question of where one can park, and what one must pay to park there can be of significant importance."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parking-rcmp-union-victoria-whistler-1.5706964


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## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm pretty tone deaf and even I can come up with a ton of reasons why police officers wearing a Punisher patch is ridiculous.



Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The union’s not going to bat for anything other than some variant of the TBL patch. Punisher skulls, spartan helmets, all the other dumb some people like to wear are not being defended. Management has the right to manage and dress and deportment is firmly in their wheelhouse, but they pushed this one too far, too arbitrarily, at the wrong time. They managed to make a mockery of themselves in doing so. They galvanized some real solidarity among a lot of worn out and worn down members.


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## Jarnhamar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Probably harder to tell people not to wear it since it makes the patch have a nexus to union solidarity.
> 
> Thin blue line patches have been around for decades as an apolitical show of support for LEOs. No reason a simple Canadian Flag with a thin blue line through it shouldn't be allowed on the uniform.



I should have quoted. I meant more about MM mentioning the insignia being on vehicles and stuff. Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.

Union insignias kinda seems in the same vein as having a mess insignia or masons sticker. "Special club" stuff.

I'm personally not a big fan of patches and embellishments (CAF hypocrisy took care of that). Doesn't really bother me when someone else has them and I certainly support professional police officers. I don't think the Canadian flag should be modified however.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The union’s not going to bat for anything other than some variant of the TBL patch. Punisher skulls, spartan helmets, all the other dumb some people like to wear are not being defended. Management has the right to manage and dress and deportment is firmly in their wheelhouse, but they pushed this one too far, too arbitrarily, at the wrong time. They managed to make a mockery of themselves in doing so. They galvanized some real solidarity among a lot of worn out and worn down members.



Nah you were clear, I get what you're saying. I'm agreeing with the union not going to bat for that punisher spartan helmet stuff. It's surprising police officers wouldn't see the problem with wearing a punisher patch.


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item
> 
> RCMP union loses 'hot button' battle over free parking spaces in Victoria and Whistler
> 
> Labour tribunal rejects union's claim that RCMP changed employee parking policy
> 
> Members at Vancouver Island's RCMP headquarters call it "scramble parking."
> 
> The region's chief superintendent told a labour tribunal that no-charge spaces in and around the Victoria HQ were at such a premium that staff would regularly scour the parking lot for spaces from the windows during the workday.
> 
> And when one came up, they pounced.
> 
> "They would leave their workstations or meetings, exit the building, and move their personal vehicles into the vacant spots," the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations and Employment Board said in one of two recent decisions devoted to the problem.
> 
> "Parking is a hot button issue. For those who must drive to work, the question of where one can park, and what one must pay to park there can be of significant importance."
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/parking-rcmp-union-victoria-whistler-1.5706964



There were two ‘unfair labour practice’ complaints raised with the labour board over parking.

When a bargaining agent is pending certification or has served notice to bargain, conditions of employment are statutorily frozen. That means management isn’t supposed to change the terms and conditions of work outside of the bargaining process. To do so can be considered an ‘unfair labour practice’, and can be challenged before the Public Service Labour Relations and Employment Board.

The two ULPs on parking failed for different reasons. In Victoria, the ‘scramble parking’ was not a new thing, it just got a bit worse because more spots became reserved for police vehicles. It fell within what management can manage. In the case of Whistler losing free parking it was because the decision was entirely outside of the RCMP’s control. The municipality made that call.

Other ULPs have been fought and on on other matters, such as changes to NCO promotion requirements. 

The union, of course, is not one guy. They can and are working on many things at once. Collective bargaining is the big one, but they’re simultaneously representing hundreds of members in various matters. As a rep I’ve been dealing with things as diverse as disability accommodations and GRTW; a whole unit facing serious harassment issues; another crew that just lost their parking (to the impact of $3k per member per year); a guy’s grievance that first lagged then got lost in the bureaucracy til I told them how to find it; a member coming back off parental leave and wanting refresher training, a guy whose acting pay was backlogged over $10k... So yeah- it’s not all about patches and parking. The matters making the news are not the most significant things going on right now to advance the interests of the members.


----------



## Remius

Thanks for the answers to my questions Brihard.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> That’s why members finally fought a case to the Supreme Court to in the right to unionize, and why they pushed to get the numbers to actually certify.



Congratulations, and long overdue, Brihard.

The Toronto Police Union was chartered in Sept. 1917 by the Trades and Labour Congress. Their first strike was on December 18, 1918, and lasted four days.

Toronto ambulance unionized on Oct. 20, 1917 and Toronto firefighters on February 28, 1918.

Today, we do not have, and do not seek, the right to strike. 



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Well, it's probably not like it's as important as the challenging 'scramble parking' issue you must be tackling right now as a highest priority item



Related,

Paid parking DND property  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/63462.425
22 pages.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What's the idea behind displaying union insignia's? Everyone belongs to the union, it seems redundant.



To make sure the taxpayers know, and do not forget.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.



And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Unions have that whole good and bad aspect to them. Protecting their members from getting screwed over, but they also have the image of protecting really bad members.



Bruce nailed it. How many times on this site have we talked about the trials and tribulations the chain of command faces when they inherit a troop who’s been a total s***bag for years, and nobody ever documented it? The RCMP’s code of conduct process has been weaponized by management against members for decades. ‘Due process’ now finally means ‘due process’. I think it’s fair that an organization literally composed of experienced investigators should be able to handle and document disciplinary investigations and allegations in an aboveboard manner.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> How many times on this site have we talked about the trials and tribulations the chain of command faces when they inherit a troop who’s been a total s***bag for years, and nobody ever documented it?



Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike]

To make sure the taxpayers know said:
			
		

> And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.



Right. That's what I mean by the image of it. Optics. They're championing due process, like a defense lawyer. Some really shitty people remain on the job because of technicalities or management being lazy/dumb, but the union has the optics of protecting them even if it's not accurate. So when you have a union insignia plastered on vehicles or whatever it *could* give off an impression of a special club or misplaced protection. Or maybe not 

[I think when a public servant is suspended with pay for 12 years, earning over a million dollars sitting at home, it's natural to question due process but we've gone over that before
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/ ]


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.



That's pretty scary when it's someone who is responsible for lives of others. Without getting too far off topic I know of someone who was fired from one of those life or death jobs for drinking on the job and prescription drug abuse. Looks like they're getting their job back- hopefully they don't kill anyone.



I think the RCMP getting a union is awesome and will address a lot of problem issues by giving rank and file members a voice. Ideally it will be a lot easier to punt their problem people and the good, professional members will get better taken care of (manning, kit and equipment, more competitive salary) and that will carry over into citizens being supported better. 

I think citizens would be shocked to hear about some of the conditions and problems RCMP rank and file deal with.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.



I've seen both; in one case a guy did something stupid that could have killed people and shut down the production line for a few weeks for major repairs. It was actually the second time, so the company fired him on the spot. The union went to bat for him and got him his job back, but they refused to put him back in the same spot (again, see almost killing people and costing them millions), so he worked the next few years in an office doing meaningless paper shuffle until he retired. That was the local steel workers union and was pretty much every bad union stereotype you could think of.

In other cases I've seen unions working with companies to come up with things like production targets, QC improvements etc then driving their members to meet them. The idea was if the company is more profitable and competitive they will still have jobs, and last I heard the company is doing really well and out competing others that moved operations off shore, so they even hired some more people.

Glad the RCMP finally has a union, as their management has been using/abusing people for a long time. I think the union patch is a good idea, as it clearly distinguishes from the other ones, but generally still think a TBL patch on a cop uniform is completely redundant.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> [I think when a public servant is suspended with pay for 12 years, earning over a million dollars sitting at home, it's natural to question due process but we've gone over that before
> https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/ ]





And how do you think every TO cop who came to work honourably for the last 12 years feels about this?   I know, because we have it here in my place of employment, pissed off to no end.  I reiterate, if you can't get rid of folks not meeting the standard then you haven't done due diligence.

I also think a lot of these layers of tribunals, hearings, etc came about for a few reasons. 
 First of all accusations and lawsuits are made against LEO's all the time. Best defense is a good offense, so dirtbags have no problem reaching into their diapers and tossing shit everywhere hoping some sticks, so therefore extra protection is needed against that.   Secondly it used to be too easy to get someone tossed, and/or shit jobs,  to those whom might not have been a good fit in the old boys club.  But now the problem becomes the devices that are there to protect good people can be manipulated by those who are not good people.

Ever the reason we need good management,.....and the lack of that seems to be an epidemic in this country from bottom to top.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And once again I must say Unions don't protect bad members, they make sure management does due process before they start droppin' hammers.  Does management want people to do their job right?  Do your job right.



Disagree strongly, and this is from a worker in one of the strongest unions in the country. I can say that the union where I am at has created some of the laziest most ineffective workers possible. Guys who would be working minimum wage at McDonalds if they didn't work there making 30+$ a hour, throw fits if they lose their out of contract over 1 hour coffee breaks, purposely break equipment, don't do their jobs, fail to clean up, etc. We literally have guys who show up for their 12 hour shift, are at their machine for a hour, disappear for 8-10 hours then show up for the last hour or two. This is because the union protects them. It actually makes people who do their job want to not do it as they are always picking up the slack for the lazy people and there is nothing to show for it. Your both paid the same and there is no consequence to being a lazy POS.

This whole thing about the RCMP throwing fits about being told what they can and cannot wear on their uniform is a joke. If you aren't issued it, don't wear it. It doesn't matter what it stands for or doesn't stand for. It really isn't hard. You want to put a bumper sticker on your car, go ahead, but your a public servant and as such shouldn't be modifying or wearing non-approved kit. 

My take on the police in Canada is that basically it is more or less a old boys club. They mostly go after criminals, but they fail to go after the criminals within their own ranks. The few times they do is only after sustained media coverage and pressure to actually take action and even then usually at worst results in a slap on the wrist. The fact that the police are being treated similar to how the CAF was in the 90s is partially their own fault just as it was partially the militaries fault. Thanks to cameras and the internet we can see what the police are actually getting up to, and many of us have been very disappointed. Start cleaning up the ranks, self reporting, actually following up on the reporting, etc. And maybe they might start to get some respect back. Things like what happened with the Nova Scotia shooter and how I am basically looking at it as a giant coverup due to the RCMP response doesn't help their case.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Your whole post just confirmed everything we've been saying even though I'm sure you didn't mean to.  Thanks...


----------



## Eaglelord17

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Your whole post just confirmed everything we've been saying even though I'm sure you didn't mean to.  Thanks...



I get the point of management doing their jobs, I firmly believe that it would make a big difference. That being said the Union has created a environment where if they try to do their job they call harassment and the management gets fired. I wish I was joking.


----------



## brihard

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Disagree strongly, and this is from a worker in one of the strongest unions in the country. I can say that the union where I am at has created some of the laziest most ineffective workers possible. Guys who would be working minimum wage at McDonalds if they didn't work there making 30+$ a hour, throw fits if they lose their out of contract over 1 hour coffee breaks, purposely break equipment, don't do their jobs, fail to clean up, etc. We literally have guys who show up for their 12 hour shift, are at their machine for a hour, disappear for 8-10 hours then show up for the last hour or two. This is because the union protects them. It actually makes people who do their job want to not do it as they are always picking up the slack for the lazy people and there is nothing to show for it. Your both paid the same and there is no consequence to being a lazy POS.
> 
> This whole thing about the RCMP throwing fits about being told what they can and cannot wear on their uniform is a joke. If you aren't issued it, don't wear it. It doesn't matter what it stands for or doesn't stand for. It really isn't hard. You want to put a bumper sticker on your car, go ahead, but your a public servant and as such shouldn't be modifying or wearing non-approved kit.
> 
> My take on the police in Canada is that basically it is more or less a old boys club. They mostly go after criminals, but they fail to go after the criminals within their own ranks. The few times they do is only after sustained media coverage and pressure to actually take action and even then usually at worst results in a slap on the wrist. The fact that the police are being treated similar to how the CAF was in the 90s is partially their own fault just as it was partially the militaries fault. Thanks to cameras and the internet we can see what the police are actually getting up to, and many of us have been very disappointed. Start cleaning up the ranks, self reporting, actually following up on the reporting, etc. And maybe they might start to get some respect back. Things like what happened with the Nova Scotia shooter and how I am basically looking at it as a giant coverup due to the RCMP response doesn't help their case.



Sounds like you’re projecting the problems and inadequacies of your own place of employment and union on others. Your problem, not ours. The RCMP exist under their own enabling legislation, do not and will not have or seek the right to strike, and have internal legal and quasi-legal mechanisms to deal with conduct.

Incidentally there’s actually labour board case law on the right of represented workers to wear something in solidarity with their union. It’s almost like the NPF engaged their counsel and did due diligence before fighting this. https://www.ciu-sdi.ca/tag/fpslreb/

The issues you’re bringing up about police sitting off suspended with pay for years is a legislative problem, not a labour relations one. The law dictates what can and can’t be done as it pertains to suspension with or without pay in the policing environment. Direct your complaints to your legislators; they’re the gatekeepers on this, and they own the problem. As it stands in most jurisdictions internal processes have to wait until ongoing criminal matters are settled, and historically that can take a long time. Some legislators and mayors have asked for the ability to suspend without pay. Again- legislative fault.

The union exists to protect the rights of members. Nobody else is entitled to like what that looks like. If suddenly the system is being used fully and you don’t like what that results, petition the appropriate democratic processes to change the system.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't get it. What's the connection between tax payers and police, EMS and fire fighters belonging to a union?



We work for the city taxpayers. During elections, unions support politicians - who ask the taxpayers to vote for them - who support unions.

Eg: We are seeing union endorsements now in the US presidential election. We also have it in our provincial and municipal elections.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know of someone who was fired from one of those life or death jobs for drinking on the job and prescription drug abuse. Looks like they're getting their job back- hopefully they don't kill anyone.



They send them to rehab again and again ...

It is presumed the alcoholism was caused by PTSD. It is also presumed the PTSD was caused by the "cumulative effect" of 9-1-1 calls. 

WSIB says the City has to place them into a "comparable" job. There are none. But, plenty of "suitable" jobs. 

eg: I know guys who were transferred to the Parks Dept. as indoor Arena - Pool Operators. Or, deckhands on the ferry boats. etc. etc... 

No loss of pension, seniority, sick bank etc.

And best of all,



> Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> We work for the city taxpayers. During elections, unions support politicians - who ask the taxpayers to vote for them - who support unions.



Not very apolitical. Hopefully the RCMP union avoids getting involved in partisan politics.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Not very apolitical. Hopefully the RCMP union avoids getting involved in partisan politics.



Time will tell I suppose. I don’t know if they’ll deem it necessary. Generally though, unions have a role to play in exercising collectively roles than members cannot exercise individually. The union has already been pushing back on one municipality’s plans to move away from RCMP, in part by pushing for accurate coating to be published. I could easily see the union having a role to play in providing a voice for individual police affected by things like the discussions over rural crime, changing gun laws, occupational health and safety, etc. Some thing (like pensions and VAC benefits) can’t be collectively bargained, so it’s an inherently political process to advocate for those. The union has already testified before parliamentary committee. So I’m not really sure where you draw the line in what’s too ‘political’.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hopefully the RCMP union avoids getting involved in partisan politics.





			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Time will tell I suppose.



Right. Readers may recall the OPPA going after the provincial Conservative party.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00QnrPua-UiFn6e2EAnlxnPXkjC6w%3A1602524640547&source=hp&ei=4JWEX5riHuy1ggef7rrwBg&q=hudak+opp&oq=hudak+opp&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAE6BAgjECc6CwguEMcBEK8BEJECOggIABCxAxCDAToLCC4QsQMQxwEQowI6CAguELEDEIMBOgUIABCxAzoECC4QJzoOCC4QxwEQrwEQyQMQkQI6BAguEEM6CgguEMcBEK8BEEM6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6EAguELEDEMcBEKMCEEMQkwI6CAguEMcBEK8BOgIIADoKCAAQsQMQyQMQQzoHCC4QsQMQQzoKCC4QxwEQowIQCjoFCAAQyQM6AgguOgQILhAKOggILhDJAxCTAjoNCC4QxwEQrwEQFBCHAjoHCAAQFBCHAjoGCAAQFhAeOgkIABDJAxAWEB5QtBBYokdg3ktoAXAAeACAAcwFiAH_EJIBCTAuOC4xLjYtMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwia0sO_za_sAhXsmuAKHR-3Dm4Q4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1602524651717


----------



## RedFive

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> What's wrong with the pistols? I had no idea they were lemons....
> 
> That's one of the reasons I used to like a 'wheel gun' - 6 shots guaranteed.



There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.

Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)

Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.

Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?

They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.




			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> You gotta be kidding me....Ontario Corrections gets made to measure brand new ones every 5 years or we can refuse to do an outside/hospital escort.   And as far as I can remember, in the last 31 years, we've only had a firearm pointed at an officer one time.



Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.

Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.

The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.




			
				trooper142 said:
			
		

> Are you sure you're not an MP? Sounds an awful lot like the problems in that organization



100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...


Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.

I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.


----------



## daftandbarmy

RedFive said:
			
		

> There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.
> 
> Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)
> 
> Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.
> 
> Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?
> 
> They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.
> 
> 
> Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.
> 
> Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.
> 
> The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> 100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...
> 
> 
> Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.
> 
> I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.



Holy cr@p...    

That is all  :cdnsalute:


----------



## Kat Stevens

RedFive said:
			
		

> There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.
> 
> Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)
> 
> Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.
> 
> Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?
> 
> They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.
> 
> 
> Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.
> 
> Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.
> 
> The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> 100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...
> 
> 
> Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.
> 
> I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.



Defund the police?? Holy shitballs, someone should start a GoFundMe page for you guys!


----------



## RedFive

Target Up said:
			
		

> Defund the police?? Holy shitballs, someone should start a GoFundMe page for you guys!



What I've said here is already Code of Conduct bait. I could explain all kinds of little wonders that would shock the public.

Then again, the bill for a Police force properly staffed, paid and equipped would shock the Public in any RCMP jurisdiction.


----------



## brihard

RedFive said:
			
		

> What I've said here is already Code of Conduct bait. I could explain all kinds of little wonders that would shock the public.
> 
> Then again, the bill for a Police force properly staffed, paid and equipped would shock the Public in any RCMP jurisdiction.



Good news is if you eat a code we’ll provide you a lawyer. And there’s a recent labour law precedent out of Saskatchewan that should offer a little bit more protection to employees speaking up about their employer in a government regulated environment.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> Good news is if you eat a code we’ll provide you a lawyer. And there’s a recent labour law precedent out of Saskatchewan that should offer a little bit more protection to employees speaking up about their employer in a government regulated environment.



That’s a good start.


----------



## MJP

Lol. Ahhh both sides of the debate are equally whiny IMHO and lose credibility.  Reasoned response is over taken by hyperbole by both sides to legitimate and in some cases fundamental issues ( systemic racism in the USA for example).  To be clear I am talking about the greater defund police movement and the response by police supporters, not this thread in general ( well less these crappy memes which belong in some police subreddit) as it has been good and well reasoned so far.

Have no dog in the fight, but I am sure both sides have decent points that are lost in the general hubris of both sides


----------



## CBH99

MJP said:
			
		

> Lol. Ahhh both sides of the debate are equally whiny IMHO and lose credibility.  Reasoned response is over taken by hyperbole by both sides to legitimate and in some cases fundamental issues ( systemic racism in the USA for example).  To be clear I am talking about the greater defund police movement and the response by police supporters, not this thread in general ( well less these crappy memes which belong in some police subreddit) as it has been good and well reasoned so far.
> 
> Have no dog in the fight, but I am sure both sides have decent point




Hey, my memes are amazing.  The 10 seconds it took me to find those speaks volumes as to their quality!  Thank You Very Much...   [


----------



## RedFive

Brihard said:
			
		

> Good news is if you eat a code we’ll provide you a lawyer. And there’s a recent labour law precedent out of Saskatchewan that should offer a little bit more protection to employees speaking up about their employer in a government regulated environment.



And that's why I like having well reasoned and articulate people like yourself, for all the times I go and tell people the truth. Oops, I mean say something dumb, that's what they called it last time I got yelled at for speaking my mind.  

Bad Mountie, back to work.  :tsktsk:


----------



## brihard

MJP said:
			
		

> Lol. Ahhh both sides of the debate are equally whiny IMHO and lose credibility.  Reasoned response is over taken by hyperbole by both sides to legitimate and in some cases fundamental issues ( systemic racism in the USA for example).  To be clear I am talking about the greater defund police movement and the response by police supporters, not this thread in general ( well less these crappy memes which belong in some police subreddit) as it has been good and well reasoned so far.
> 
> Have no dog in the fight, but I am sure both sides have decent point



I can’t recall which thread it was, but I’ve definitely given some thoughts on the whole ‘defund’ thing before. Generally speaking, it’s going to depend on what they mean by that. If it’s simply yanking police funding without any thought given to it, then yeah, that’s worth nothing. If it’s the conscious diversion of funding from police to fill other societal needs AND in doing so reduce the workload of police getting sent to stuff that shouldn’t be their problem (Non-violent domestics, BS neighbour disputes, non-violent mental health calls etc), then that’s worth looking at. Unfortunately, much if not most of the ‘defund’ rhetoric is just mindless anti-police noise, not thought out policy alternatives. Society could certainly stand to benefit from less of police being employed as adult babysitters, often for the same people who are our most vocal critics.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Murray-Hill riot might (or might not) be a good example of what happens when the police step back and take a knee.



> The Murray-Hill riot, also known as Montreal's night of terror, was the culmination of 16 hours of unrest in Montreal, Quebec during a strike by the Montreal police on 7 October 1969.
> 
> Police were motivated to strike because of difficult working conditions caused by disarming FLQ-planted bombs and patrolling frequent protests. Montreal police also wanted higher pay, commensurate with police earnings in Toronto
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot


----------



## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Murray-Hill riot might (or might not) be a good example of what happens when the police step back and take a knee.



It would be interesting to see if calls to defund the police would die out if Law Enforcement unions coordinated a similar thing nation (or continent) wide. There are definitely crappy cops out there, and that scares me. But the alternative is even less appealing...


----------



## mariomike

> Montreal police also wanted higher pay, commensurate with police earnings in Toronto.

I don't remember Toronto emergency services ever having a strike. But, Metro Police did have a job action ( a slowdown ) in 1976, over the two-officer car.


----------



## blacktriangle

RedFive said:
			
		

> There's a couple issues with the Smith and Wesson 5946.
> 
> Firstly, S&W stopped making parts for them in 1999. We're out of parts. So now we hire contractors to scratch build parts like breech blocks/barrels, recoil spring guide rods, and trigger springs. There have been numerous Force wide emails sent out to monitor your pistol for cracking in the breech block. I have also been warned by BFI's to watch out for bent guide rods and variable trigger pulls. I am told the contractor to produce the parts was supposed to be Colt Canada, but both CC and S&W told the GoC to pound sand. Who knows who makes the parts now? (if you do, I'd love to hear from you) I shoot my pistol on my own time regularly, and have little faith in it as a life or death option of last resort. (The part above about CC and the GoC is rumour, told to me by a firearms instructor and should be treated as such)
> 
> Secondly, the trigger pull is 12 pounds, and a ridiculous length. Referred to as a "lawyer's trigger" (again, by a Firearms instructor) the idea is the only way this pistol will go off is if you meant it to go off. Great idea at the concept stage, but it makes it bloody hard to shoot, even for a guy who has grown up around guns. Other members who don't practice on their own time or lack the wrist strength to keep it on target while dealing with the trigger often populate the learning assistance range spots after failed qualifications. I'm not advocating for a 2lb trigger, but a more reasonable weight would be suitable.
> 
> Thirdly, there is no rail to mount a flashlight on. That might seem to some to be a first world problem, but its fairly common place amongst other forces and even RCMP Police Dog Services. Why? If I've got my pistol in one hand and flashlight in the other, the door doesn't even have to be locked to become an insurmountable problem. Do I holster my pistol and open the door with a flashlight out so I can see what's on the other side? Or do I open the door with my gun out sans flashlight, and hope whatever is on the other side is easily seen?
> 
> They are great guns, and I would love to keep mine as a gun owner when it is retired. It'll never happen, as they're prohibited by barrel length. I just don't trust the thing with my life.
> 
> 
> Our body armour used to say it was NIJ Lvl II on it, then they changed that to an RCMP specification number I've been unable to find referenced in Policy. It's also only allowed to be replaced every 7 years, instead of 5 like every other armour manufacturer I'm aware of.
> 
> Needless to say, I and many other members have bought our own IIIA armour. Cost me $1400 including the carrier to fit it, but getting home to my family is worth that amount, at least.
> 
> The hard body armour carriers that ride in the back of every PC these days are rated to IV (30-06 AP). No idea what the life span is on those, but I seriously doubt they plan on replacing them in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> 100% sure, but a phone conversation I had with an MP the other day while at work led me to believe the organizations suffer from some of the same problems...
> 
> 
> Brihard is clearly vastly more articulate than I am and has done a great job of explaining most of the frustrations with management right now. The real anger in this is for management to drop this bomb on us while there are so many other, vastly more pressing issues that need dealing with. They instead chose to take aim at one of the few concepts/campaigns/displays of camaraderie and espirit de corps left in Policing, in the name of wokeness. I have since heard that management only took issue with TBL flags because Heritage Canada protested that it was a defacement of the Canadian flag being worn by Federal Employees. I'll believe that when the RCMP becomes the top paid police force in Canada.
> 
> I look forward to the NPF achieving our first bargaining agreement, the result of which I hope will be management being held to account and the s***pumps of the organization being thrown out on their ***. And hopefully better pay, kit and working conditions will attract better recruits. My time at Depot was... scary.



I've always wondered why rail mounted lights weren't standard for LEOs. 

I also can't help but think that hip/belt or drop leg holster placement might be putting LEO at a tactical disadvantage considering how much time they spend sitting in vehicles etc.

Edited for clarity. Not enough caffeine or nicotine today it seems.


----------



## RedFive

I'm willing to put up with a slightly larger holster for the benefit it would bring.

I've been lugging an X26P Taser around in an RCMP approved drop leg holster for two and a half years now, and it's a gigantic pain in the rear to deal with on a day to day basis. I've never had to deploy it. But I'd rather have the tool than not, and my waist line doesn't give me enough room on my belt to wear it in a belt holster.

I can't understand why it has taken so long to replace the 5946 ("the Chunk" as it's somewhat affectionately referred to, because of its weight and relative uselessness beyond a blunt force impact weapon)
All I've heard is rumours non-stop about cold weather performance and reliability, arguments over whether they're going to buy a pistol to equip every member or just some (ERT, PDS and Air Carrier Protection program carry different pistols and, according to the rumours, are not interested in losing their chosen pistols for a one size fits all option), and other such trivial matters like the RCMP wanting to reinvent the wheel to get a pistol that satisfies the always present cost factor.

In short, they're trying to choose a pistol that is suitable for the best gunfighters the RCMP has, works flawlessly at -60, is concealable, suitable for patrol, mounts a flashlight and isn't going to be dangerous in the hands of members who manage to earn their badge despite a total lack of firearms competence then never practice again besides the once a year range date they have to re-qualify (if they even go every year)(hence heavy trigger pulls ERT types don't want, large pistol types the Air Marshalls don't want, can't pull the trigger to take apart, stuff like that)

If anybody knows of a pistol that can do all that, let me know and I'll forward it along.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=RedFive]

If anybody knows of a pistol that can do all that, let me know and I'll forward it along.
[/quote]

Glock 19 with an Inforce APLc light.

There's even a Canadian version with a maple leaf you can draw a blue line though  







But really, it's a really great shooter IMO. Just can't mitigate dangerous shooters.


----------



## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Glock 19 with an Inforce APLc light.
> 
> There's even a Canadian version with a maple leaf you can draw a blue line though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But really, it's a really great shooter IMO. Just can't mitigate dangerous shooters.



I bet it would mitigate certain dangerous shooters pretty well.


----------



## RedFive

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Glock 19 with an Inforce APLc light.
> 
> There's even a Canadian version with a maple leaf you can draw a blue line though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But really, it's a really great shooter IMO. Just can't mitigate dangerous shooters.



Last I heard, off the table due to needing to pull the trigger to disassemble. They trust us with authorities unseen in any other profession, but not in the proper disassembly of our sidearms...

EDIT to add: Pretty sure they don't like polymer pistols for -60 brittleness on patrol in our more northern territories.


----------



## dapaterson

RedFive said:
			
		

> If anybody knows of a pistol that can do all that, let me know and I'll forward it along.



You left out "Is willing to have their IP transferred to Colt Canada to be built in Canada for triple the price because of procurement rules."


----------



## RedFive

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You left out "Is willing to have their IP transferred to Colt Canada to be built in Canada for triple the price because of procurement rules."



Perhaps we're all waiting for CC to design their own pistol? The Hi-Powers in the vault at my unit need to put out of their misery in a bad way...


----------



## Haggis

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You left out "Is willing to have their IP transferred to Colt Canada to be built in Canada for triple the price because of procurement rules."


Which is a large part of why the CAF have yet to replace the Browning High Power.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=RedFive]
EDIT to add: Pretty sure they don't like polymer pistols for -60 brittleness on patrol in our more northern territories.
[/quote]

Tell em the Danish Navy run 2000 mile long-range reconnaissance patrols on dog sleds around the northern and eastern coast of arctic Greenland with Glock pistols (and 30-06 Enfields). They'll be fine  ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Tell em the Danish Navy run 2000 mile long-range reconnaissance patrols on dog sleds around the northern and eastern coast of arctic Greenland with Glock pistols (and 30-06 Enfields). They'll be fine  ;D



The Sirius Patrol.... some of these guys were on a Norwegian winter warfare course I attended many years ago:

Because of the special nature of the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol operations, a wide range of unique equipment is required that is not normally used by the Danish armed forces.[3][12]

The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Among the equipment used by the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol is the M1917 Enfield bolt-action rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield, known in Danish service as the Gevær M/53 (17), and the Glock 20 pistol chambered in 10mm Auto.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol uses the standard .30-06 Springfield 168-grain (10.89 g) armor piercing, M2 military rifle round and also civilian hollow-points. The patrolmen feel that the M2 military round is best against aggressive polar bears at long range, but that the hollow-points are better against an enraged musk ox. Typically, the patrolmen arrange their stripper clips so every third round is a hollow-point.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol formerly used Pistol M/49 sidearms chambered in 9×19mm Parabellum, but they proved insufficient against the polar bears encountered.[13]

"The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Only bolt-action rifles (M17/M53) perform reliably. The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear."[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Dog_Sled_Patrol#:~:text=Among%20the%20equipment%20used%20by,Sled%20Patrol%20uses%20the%20standard%20.


----------



## RedFive

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Tell em the Danish Navy run 2000 mile long-range reconnaissance patrols on dog sleds around the northern and eastern coast of arctic Greenland with Glock pistols (and 30-06 Enfields). They'll be fine  ;D



Therein lies the frustration with management. It doesn't matter how much sense it makes, or what kind of other expert opinion/evidence is out there, somebody has built an empire on this procurement program and they'll be damned if they let it end before their candidate wins and their pension is maxed out. Times that by at least four units/sections/trades/specialties that have their own pistol type and that's how we got where we are.


----------



## Haggis

RedFive said:
			
		

> Last I heard, off the table due to needing to pull the trigger to disassemble. They trust us with authorities unseen in any other profession, but not in the proper disassembly of our sidearms...


That didn't stop some of the largest municipal and provincial law enforcement agencies in Canada from going to Glock. 

At the federal level (aside from the  CAF MP) you have three different pistols in use across at least five agencies and combined they make up smaller numbers than the NYPD. That's small potatoes for most pistol manufacturers.

IP transfer concerns are not really a showstopper for federal law enforcement. Berettas, S&W, Sig Sauers and Glocks are already in use and none are manufactured in Canada.


----------



## Haggis

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Murray-Hill riot might (or might not) be a good example of what happens when the police step back and take a knee.


 I lived in Montréal during that riot.  It was a terrifying period which continued into the October Crisis the following year.


----------



## Eaglelord17

reveng said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to see if calls to defund the police would die out if Law Enforcement unions coordinated a similar thing nation (or continent) wide. There are definitely crappy cops out there, and that scares me. But the alternative is even less appealing...



Why does it have to be accept crappy cops or have no cops? How about separating the wheat from the chaff and let the good cops continue on with their jobs?

I am also curious as to why people believe the RCMP are underpaid? Its 56k a year starting going up to 86k within 5 years with a excellent pension, OT, and other benefits. For a job that only requires you have highschool that is a pretty solid package. 

As to a service pistol just pick a Sig, CZ, or some other DA/SA pistol (I say DA/SA because safeties are a time waster in stressful situations and the double action makes sure you don't accidentally pull the trigger the first time), all the modern ones are more than suitable and fairly inexpensive. The whole project should be about 12-20 million to buy all these pistols for the whole force (just over 30k RCMP members, at roughly 400-600$ per pistol when you factor in the bulk government price), just make a decision and go with it. The longer they waste is ensuring members aren't adequately armed, and that the cost overruns of management working on that decision might end up with the cost of deciding what to procure being more than the procurement itself.


----------



## MJP

Brihard said:
			
		

> I can’t recall which thread it was, but I’ve definitely given some thoughts on the whole ‘defund’ thing before. Generally speaking, it’s going to depend on what they mean by that. If it’s simply yanking police funding without any thought given to it, then yeah, that’s worth nothing. If it’s the conscious diversion of funding from police to fill other societal needs AND in doing so reduce the workload of police getting sent to stuff that shouldn’t be their problem (Non-violent domestics, BS neighbour disputes, non-violent mental health calls etc), then that’s worth looking at. Unfortunately, much if not most of the ‘defund’ rhetoric is just mindless anti-police noise, not thought out policy alternatives. Society could certainly stand to benefit from less of police being employed as adult babysitters, often for the same people who are our most vocal critics.



I think reading your post before it and in general feel the same way as what you posted above.  Both sides grandstanding waters down the issue and makes it ablack and white issue, but it is much more than that IMHO.  It is much more an American issue that has been blindly picked up on the Canadian side of the border likely without much thought. Do police here have issues? In my opinion yes but it means looking at the issue not throwing the baby out with the bath water. I have lived in several places with peace officers as the traffic enforcement, by-law and general low level enforcement folks leaving the police free to do other things. Add in a touch of social services to make it a holistic effort to help society instead of just policing it maybe is the answer. I don't profess much expertise in this area, however my belief is that like many things we need to review how we as a society want to police, assist and deal with issues. To stay status quo may be the answer, but we won't know unless we look at other options and try them.


----------



## dapaterson

Looking at Canadian average income, RCMP pay seems OK; benchmarking against other forces (OPP, QPP, Toronto, Vancouver...) the RCMP rates are materially less.  Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall). 
 The question of police compensation writ large across the country is another, different discussion. 

I lack the knowledge and expertise to comment on the technical requirements for replacement RCMP sidearm(s), but I do suspect that smaller purchases have been possible without drawing heat and light.  A wholesale replacement will draw attention and desire to create Canadian economic benefits.  As well, costing is more than just pistols - it's ancillary gear; it's spares and tooling; it's training and conversion costs for members to undergo familiarization and qualification; it 's potentially infra costs if lockups need to be modified...


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).



This does not apply to OPP, as they are provincial employees,



> Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System ( OMERS )
> 
> The OMERS Supplemental Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics (the "Supplemental Plan") offers optional benefits for members of the police sector, firefighters and paramedics.
> https://www.omers.com/supplemental-plan





			
				Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> I am also curious as to why people believe the RCMP are underpaid? Its 56k a year starting going up to 86k within 5 years with a excellent pension, OT, and other benefits. For a job that only requires you have highschool that is a pretty solid package.



See also,

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/102608.0
5 pages.


----------



## Haggis

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> As to a service pistol just pick a Sig, CZ, or some other DA/SA pistol (I say DA/SA because safeties are a time waster in stressful situations and the double action makes sure you don't accidentally pull the trigger the first time), all the modern ones are more than suitable and fairly inexpensive. The whole project should be about 12-20 million to buy all these pistols for the whole force (just over 30k RCMP members, at roughly 400-600$ per pistol when you factor in the bulk government price), just make a decision and go with it. The longer they waste is ensuring members aren't adequately armed, and that the cost overruns of management working on that decision might end up with the cost of deciding what to procure being more than the procurement itself.



To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (_An example _would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)

Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.

*edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Looking at Canadian average income, RCMP pay seems OK; benchmarking against other forces (OPP, QPP, Toronto, Vancouver...) the RCMP rates are materially less.  Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).
> The question of police compensation writ large across the country is another, different discussion.



This will be a key issue for NPF and Treasury Board at the bargaining table. NPF will argue that RCMP can only be appropriately compared to other police services for purposes of total compensation (which is well beyond just the base salary). TBS will probably try to argue comparability to other federal employees. And of course as RCMP goes, there will be knock on effects to other federal public safety professions such as CBSA and corrections. There’s a decent possibility that this aspect of the negotiations may go to mediation-arbritration.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Haggis said:
			
		

> To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (_An example _would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)
> 
> Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.
> 
> *edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.



I like Honey....


----------



## lenaitch

> Plus max pension for RCMP is realized at 35 years of service; for Ontario police, it's at 30 years of service now (as I recall).



As Marionmike mentioned, OPP pensionable earning calculations are not capped - 2% per year of service.  A couple of years ago a member retired with 50 years service; effectively 100% pension.

All municipal police services are under OMERS (Ontario Municipal Employee Retirement System).  According to this they are capped at 35 years service for pensionable earnings calculation, although that is apparently changing.

_What is credited service?
Credited service is the number of years and months of paid service you have in the OMERS Plan. The maximum amount of credited service a member may have is capped at 35 years. 

Note: Effective January 1, 2021, OMERS will no longer cap your credited service. If you have not reached 35 years of credited service prior to this date, you will continue to contribute and accrue credited service in the Plan. If a member meets the 35-year cap before January 1, 2021, the limit will continue to apply_

https://www.omers.com/Members/Maximize-Your-Pension/Buying-Service


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> A couple of years ago a member retired with 50 years service; effectively 100% pension.



Imagine getting pulled over!  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnvPJtJf6uo


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Haggis said:
			
		

> To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (_An example _would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)
> 
> Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.
> 
> *edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.



It`s a great idea, from what I hear Sig actually underbid Glock for the US army contract and I think the Glock LE price at the time was roughly $265 USD for pistol, case, 5 mags and cleaning rod. make the contract requirement that the pistol is in production and NATO Service that makes it Sig and Glock, either would be fine. 60,000 pistols would work to cover the DND and all of the services. When the French Federal police bought the Sig 2022, they bought 500,000.


----------



## PuckChaser

DND can't sort itself out to buy replacement service pistols. How the heck are we going to coordinate requirements between 5 different PS organizations with its own independent kingdoms???


----------



## Eaglelord17

Haggis said:
			
		

> To make the contract worth bidding on and to see serious bulk savings, it would have to be a substantial sized buy. As I stated earlier, combined the RCMP (19,000), CBSA (7,000), Fisheries Officers (650) and Park Wardens (100) have less armed officers than the NYPD (35,200). So why not buy once for all and put everyone on the same basic platform?  Throw in the CAF and then you'd have a good sized buy. (_An example _would be to go with the Sig Sauer P320 platform for LE use and the mil modified M17 for CAF use as the CAF would want an external/manual safety.)
> 
> Also, your estimate of price per unit fails to account for new holsters, possibly magazine pouches, storage and transportation modifications, development and implementation of conversion training and recertification for all officers and instructors, maintenance and lifecycle management.  And this could also include costs for ammunition unless a 9mm is selected.
> 
> *edit*  dapaterson partly beat me to it.



Some of the kits you can buy civvy side include holsters etc. for similar prices to what I have listed. I get that holster might not be the particular one they desire and that is something would have to be explored on its own. Training really shouldn't be much of a issue, most modern pistols are all pretty basic and if you already have pistol training its more a matter of handling the pistol for a little bit than anything serious. I don't see why they would choose anything other than a 9mm. Most officers don't shoot much to begin with and throwing a heavier caliber their way is both a waste of money in terms of having to acquire new non-standard ammo and would likely result in less effectiveness on the officers part. 

My estimation for cost was based on 30k pistols as well. If they only need 19k-20k, the costs even if you add all the other extras in should still be within my estimate. They are equipped with obsolescent worn out pistols which is their main armament. Just make a decision and go with it. All of these modern designs have very long life spans, are very reliable, relatively accurate, and are fairly cheap. They all have served with militaries and police officers around the world without issue. We like to pretend that we have all these special requirements but if it is working fine for everyone else it will work fine for us. They really can't go too far wrong with any of them.


----------



## Haggis

Colin P said:
			
		

> It`s a great idea, from what I hear Sig actually underbid Glock for the US army contract and I think the Glock LE price at the time was roughly $265 USD for pistol, case, 5 mags and cleaning rod. make the contract requirement that the pistol is in production and NATO Service that makes it Sig and Glock, either would be fine. 60,000 pistols would work to cover the DND and all of the services. When the French Federal police bought the Sig 2022, they bought 500,000.


When Glock was awarded the Ottawa Police Service contract they pretty much gave away the pistols in order to win the bid.


----------



## Jarnhamar

There might be some wisdom in just picking a really good sidearm and not just what we/they can get for the cheapest price.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There might be some wisdom in just picking a really good sidearm and not just what we/they can get for the cheapest price.



They need to buy new pistols and fast.  The Sig225 is absolute garbage as is the Browning mostly because they are old and have been put through the ringer.  It would be nice to have a pistol you know won't have a stoppage the minute you pull it out of the holster.  Sig226 is fine but for how much longer they are made remains to be seen.

Sig is also in financial difficulty and has recently closed their plant in Germany leaving just their American plant open.  No guarantee Sig will be a safe bet for any sort of pistol replacement.

As for requirements, double action or striker fired please.  The Browning is really unsafe when compared to a Glock or Sig.


----------



## Brash

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> They need to buy new pistols and fast.  The Sig225 is absolute garbage as is the Browning mostly because they are old and have been put through the ringer.  It would be nice to have a pistol you know won't have a stoppage the minute you pull it out of the holster.  Sig226 is fine but for how much longer they are made remains to be seen.
> 
> Sig is also in financial difficulty and has recently closed their plant in Germany leaving just their American plant open.  No guarantee Sig will be a safe bet for any sort of pistol replacement.
> 
> As for requirements, double action or striker fired please.  The Browning is really unsafe when compared to a Glock or Sig.



Isn't the US plant pretty safe considering the US Army just awarded them the contract for the M18 (320)?
The modular design would also be an asset in terms of user fit, as well.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> They need to buy new pistols and fast.  The Sig225 is absolute garbage as is the Browning mostly because they are old and have been put through the ringer.  It would be nice to have a pistol you know won't have a stoppage the minute you pull it out of the holster.  Sig226 is fine but for how much longer they are made remains to be seen.
> 
> Sig is also in financial difficulty and has recently closed their plant in Germany leaving just their American plant open.  No guarantee Sig will be a safe bet for any sort of pistol replacement.
> 
> As for requirements, double action or striker fired please.  The Browning is really unsafe when compared to a Glock or Sig.



I know ardent defenders of the Browning will tell you it's not the pistol it's the mags but I don't think that's 100% accurate. I've bought high end Browning mags at over $80 a pop and they jammed right along side the issued stuff. I've also recently seen new (lets say previously un-issued) Brownings issued with cracked parks.



The RCMP union might want to consider drawing a line in the sand over their issued pistols while they're fighting the patch fight.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The RCMP union might want to consider drawing a line in the sand over their issued pistols while they're fighting the patch fight.



Oh, believe me, they’ve been all over that and other major health and safety issues for a while. Most of the real work on major issues is happening quietly in the background.


----------



## OldSolduer

Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh, believe me, they’ve been all over that and other major health and safety issues for a while. Most of the real work on major issues is happening quietly in the background.



Be careful picking the hill you want to die on.

While I understand the memberships' stance on the patch, its not part of the issue uniform as far as I know. As a former member of the CAF I can also understand the institution's stance on this as well.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh, believe me, they’ve been all over that and other major health and safety issues for a while. Most of the real work on major issues is happening quietly in the background.



Are you saying you want to come over and shoot my Glocks and Sigs so you can staff up some fancy pants report? I'm game


----------



## blacktriangle

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Be careful picking the hill you want to die on.
> 
> While I understand the memberships' stance on the patch, its not part of the issue uniform as far as I know. As a former member of the CAF I can also understand the institution's stance on this as well.



Perhaps the institution should stand behind it's members, and authorize a subdued, standardized patch for wear. Doesn't need a flag, just the TBL on a black background or something.

Or they can just continue to piss their rank and file off. I guess that's the more politically and socially acceptable option.


----------



## Haggis

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know ardent defenders of the Browning will tell you it's not the pistol it's the mags but I don't think that's 100% accurate. I've bought high end Browning mags at over $80 a pop and they jammed right along side the issued stuff. I've also recently seen new (lets say previously un-issued) Brownings issued with cracked parks.



You know that I'm a huge fan of the Browning HP. I've shot the sued ones for years.  I own one and have put thousands of rounds through it and only suffered one broken part (extractor).  That being said, it's time has come (heck, it's time had come when I joined!)  It's still a great pistol and, in properly trained hands, can be very effective.

The Americans went to the Sig and the Brits went with Glock, all in a space of less than a decade.  Remember how long it took to get the CAF out of OG107 and into CADPAT?  That record still stands and has to be broken by the pistol procurement project.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Haggis said:
			
		

> You know that I'm a huge fan of the Browning HP. I've shot the sued ones for years.  I own one and have put thousands of rounds through it and only suffered one broken part (extractor).  That being said, it's time has come (heck, it's time had come when I joined!)  It's still a great pistol and, in properly trained hands, can be very effective.
> 
> The Americans went to the Sig and the Brits went with Glock, all in a space of less than a decade.  Remember how long it took to get the CAF out of OG107 and into CADPAT?  That record still stands and has to be broken by the pistol procurement project.



Cough Maritime Helicopter Project cough...


----------



## Haggis

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Cough Maritime Helicopter Project cough...



But you eventually got your whirlybirds.  I was told over forty years ago that we would have American M9 pistols by 1985.


----------



## Good2Golf

Haggis said:
			
		

> But you eventually got your whirlybirds.  I was told over forty years ago that we would have American M9 pistols by 1985.



It was a plan to avoid the problematic M9.  Well-played Canada! :nod:


For the off-topic record, P320 is very nice (although I’d actually like the HK VP9)


----------



## blacktriangle

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Cough Maritime Helicopter Project cough...



Is it correct to say that Canada went it's own way with the Cyclone, and ignored the tried and true options already in NATO service? Was it that none of the other options met the legitimate requirements of the MH community, or were their other factors at play? 

Makes me wonder if we will ignore the examples of others, and "go our own way" when it comes to a pistol replacement.


----------



## Navy_Pete

reveng said:
			
		

> Perhaps the institution should stand behind it's members, and authorize a subdued, standardized patch for wear. Doesn't need a flag, just the TBL on a black background or something.
> 
> Or they can just continue to piss their rank and file off. I guess that's the more politically and socially acceptable option.



Or maybe instead of a stupid piece of meaningless flair they can just support their workers properly?

Honestly don't understand why any cop would want to wear a TBL patch after it got tainted through association with a bunch of different white supremacists groups in the US (and in Canada to a lesser extent). Even if that's not the intended meaning, it really doesn't matter. A union patch that incorporated it might be different enough, but on it's own it is still a giant F U against any reconciliation effort.


----------



## MJP

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Or maybe instead of a stupid piece of meaningless flair they can just support their workers properly?
> 
> Honestly don't understand why any cop would want to wear a TBL patch after it got tainted through association with a bunch of different white supremacists groups in the US (and in Canada to a lesser extent). Even if that's not the intended meaning, it really doesn't matter. A union patch that incorporated it might be different enough, but on it's own it is still a giant F U against any reconciliation effort.



It is a valid point and despite TBL being around much longer it is one of those societal wedge issues that has percolated up from our Southern neighbors an tainted its original good intentions.


----------



## brihard

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Be careful picking the hill you want to die on.
> 
> While I understand the memberships' stance on the patch, its not part of the issue uniform as far as I know. As a former member of the CAF I can also understand the institution's stance on this as well.



The law is on the union’s side courtesy of PSLREB case law (out of CBSA, actually) on members wearing a sign of support for their union.

This is obviously an issue that is of value almost entirely for its symbolism- but things have gotten bad enough that the symbolism of the (brand new, don’t forget) standing up for members in a way this organization hasn’t seen before matters. Management picked a fight that allows the union to back members and to flex some labour law that works in its favour- and also to fire a shot across management’s now about making pronouncements without consultation. That’s a big part of the issue here.

The patch issue is minor in its own right, but it’s a proxy issue for bigger stuff.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> The law is on the union’s side courtesy of PSLREB case law (out of CBSA, actually) on members wearing a sign of support for their union.



That being said, some of the accoutrements provided for us to wear are ill conceived and look quite unprofessional. The fact that they are all NDP orange doesn't help portray an apolitical stance.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

You ask if its a hill worth dying on.....that question can also be asked of management.   For the first time some of them may have to account for decisions that are made only to piss off the good men and women who want to do the best job possible.
I know another organization who could use a helping of that....


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know ardent defenders of the Browning will tell you it's not the pistol it's the mags but I don't think that's 100% accurate. I've bought high end Browning mags at over $80 a pop and they jammed right along side the issued stuff. I've also recently seen new (lets say previously un-issued) Brownings issued with cracked parks.
> 
> 
> 
> The RCMP union might want to consider drawing a line in the sand over their issued pistols while they're fighting the patch fight.



The first time I held one of our Brownings was in 1981. before I put the mag in, I gave a little wrist wiggle shake. It rattled like two BBs in an Altoids tin. I was not encouraged for my first time using a cool guy gun. I happily went back to my C2.


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> That being said, some of the accoutrements provided for us to wear are ill conceived and look quite unprofessional. The fact that they are all NDP orange doesn't help portray an apolitical stance.



Oh, certainly. But what’s of interest to NPF is the legal ruling, not the orange shoelaces. Nor are we talking SPVM clown pants here.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> Nor are we talking SPVM clown pants here.



Made them look foolish. The taxpayers care about response times.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh, certainly. But what’s of interest to NPF is the legal ruling, not the orange shoelaces.


I'm not a huge supporter of our union after how they showed their disdain for veterans.  On the union "colours" issue, while crossing back into Canada my wife remarked that the union patch that the BSO was wearing looked unprofessional and the patch  sent the wrong message ("I keep guns out of Canada - with or without a contract.")



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Nor are we talking SPVM clown pants here.


I remember those.  Completely over the top.

I work with two former SPVM officers who spoke often about the power of their union.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Or maybe instead of a stupid piece of meaningless flair they can just support their workers properly?
> 
> Honestly don't understand why any cop would want to wear a TBL patch after it got tainted through association with a bunch of different white supremacists groups in the US (and in Canada to a lesser extent). Even if that's not the intended meaning, it really doesn't matter. A union patch that incorporated it might be different enough, but on it's own it is still a giant F U against any reconciliation effort.



More on that 'Nazi' thing:

The Short, Fraught History of the ‘Thin Blue Line’ American Flag

The controversial version of the U.S. flag has been hailed as a sign of police solidarity and criticized as a symbol of white supremacy.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag


----------



## Eaglelord17

reveng said:
			
		

> Is it correct to say that Canada went it's own way with the Cyclone, and ignored the tried and true options already in NATO service? Was it that none of the other options met the legitimate requirements of the MH community, or were their other factors at play?



Basic summary. Canada was to get the Cormorant helicopter in the 90s to replace the Sea King. Chrétien said we didn't need a 'cadillac' of helicopters and cancelled the project (at a cost of about 160 Million in penalties) after it had been accepted and we only got a few for search and rescue. The Cyclone was then selected even though it didn't exist around 2004-2005, and the first ones weren't delivered until 2015. A lot to read on for that disaster of a procurement. Actually the original procurement went well, it was the government playing games that didn't.


----------



## OldSolduer

Haggis said:
			
		

> I'm not a huge supporter of our union after how they showed their disdain for veterans.  On the union "colours" issue, while crossing back into Canada my wife remarked that the union patch that the BSO was wearing looked unprofessional and the patch  sent the wrong message ("I keep guns out of Canada - with or without a contract.")
> I remember those.  Completely over the top.
> 
> I work with two former SPVM officers who spoke often about the power of their union.



OK there are no stupid questions - what is SVPM?


----------



## Haggis

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> OK there are no stupid questions - what is SVPM?



*S*ervice * de P*olice de la *V*ille de *M*ontréal.


----------



## mariomike

Toronto emergency services got a one-hundred year head start on unionization.

I am certainly not condoning, or suggesting, labour action. But, I was around long enough to remember the sick outs, working to rule, and work slowdowns. 

Regarding the Montreal "clown pants". They broke the rule that our management and union both agreed on: Don't ever embarrass the job.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Haggis said:
			
		

> *S*ervice * de P*olice de la *V*ille de *M*ontréal.



I saw a bunch of them in 'Old Montreal' a few years ago and thought it was the 'Just for Laughs' show letting out


----------



## OldSolduer

Haggis said:
			
		

> *S*ervice * de P*olice de la *V*ille de *M*ontréal.



Who the f*ck thought that was a good idea? That fairy should have been eradicated on the spot for even daring to bring this stupid idea up.


----------



## blacktriangle

Kinda looks like boogaloo, Montreal style.


----------



## Haggis

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding the Montreal "clown pants". They broke the rule that our management and union both agreed on: Don't ever embarrass the job.


The SPVM and their predecessors have always had a tumultuous relationship with their unions.

My personal experiences with job actions has been mostly negative from being threatened by masked PSAC picketers in 1991 to being assaulted by an impaired picketer at a DND site in 2004 (that person later ended up working for me  ;D) to being asked to wear embarrassingly unprofessional (IMO) union swag last year.

I think the NPF is on the right track by encouraging the wear of a subtle and tasteful solidarity patch. And, based on the PSLREB ruling in favour of the CIU vs CBSA, the RCMP should just back off and accept that they will lose this fight.  That way they can concentrate on finding a good revolver to replace the S&W 5946.


----------



## dapaterson

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Who the f*ck thought that was a good idea? That fairy should have been eradicated on the spot for even daring to bring this stupid idea up.



Since police are not permitted to strike, it was a union tactic to keep the ongoing labour negotiations in the public eye.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Since police are not permitted to strike,



Are police, and emergency services, allowed to have "study sessions"?
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/history-through-our-eyes/history-through-our-eyes-oct-8-1969-police-strike-chaos-follows

Only time I heard of "study sessions" was during the 1969 Murray-Hill riot in Montreal.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Who the f*ck thought that was a good idea? That fairy should have been eradicated on the spot for even daring to bring this stupid idea up.



No right to withdraw services so I guess its a wildcat, leaving the citizens of the city to fend for themselves, or a ridiculous very public 
tacky fashion statement. 
I'll take a cop showing up in clown pants over no cop showing up at all thank you very much.

Get over this uniform crap...it doesn't mean frig all in big pictures.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Are police, and emergency services, allowed to have "study sessions"?
> https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/history-through-our-eyes/history-through-our-eyes-oct-8-1969-police-strike-chaos-follows
> 
> Only time I heard of "study sessions" was during the 1969 Murray-Hill riot in Montreal.



None of us want crap like that. We want to do the job, we just (inconveniently) want to do it with comparable compensation, adequate backup, enough resources to keep our heads above water, modern and safe equipment, and grievance/disciplinary systems that are fairly implemented and reasonably timely.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> None of us want crap like that.



I don't think anyone does.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> None of us want crap like that. We want to do the job, we just (inconveniently) want to do it with comparable compensation, adequate backup, enough resources to keep our heads above water, modern and safe equipment, and grievance/disciplinary systems that are fairly implemented and reasonably timely.



Thanks to the impact of US events and pervasive Canadian media coverage of those same events, LE in Canada will be hard pressed to gain much sympathy from Joe Public in the face of constant demands for police reform and defunding.  (the MSM and left wing activists compare Canadian cops to US cops the same way Canadian gun owners are compared to gang-bangers  : ).

My agency works closely with the RCMP and I personally know quite a few socially.  The general consensus, as outsiders-looking-in, is that the RCMP have a huge public relations/image crisis and the NPF has a huge task ahead in contract negotiations.  Good luck to them.


----------



## mariomike

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Who the f*ck thought that was a good idea? That fairy should have been eradicated on the spot for even daring to bring this stupid idea up.



Main thing is showing up. In a timely manner. 

But, on the street, and especially if being sent into someone's home, I think personal appearance is very important. YMMV.


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> Thanks to the impact of US events and pervasive Canadian media coverage of those same events, LE in Canada will be hard pressed to gain much sympathy from Joe Public in the face of constant demands for police reform and defunding.  (the MSM and left wing activists compare Canadian cops to US cops the same way Canadian gun owners are compared to gang-bangers  : ).
> 
> My agency works closely with the RCMP and I personally know quite a few socially.  The general consensus, as outsiders-looking-in, is that the RCMP have a huge public relations/image crisis and the NPF has a huge task ahead in contract negotiations.  Good luck to them.



All true. Fortunately, the negotiations are with treasury board, not joe public. In the event that is goes to arbitration, there are things an arbitrator considers, and things it doesn’t. The biggest factors considered for the RCMP in negotiations will be, I think, external comparability to other police, and the ability to recruit and retain.


----------



## RedFive

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> I am also curious as to why people believe the RCMP are underpaid? Its 56k a year starting going up to 86k within 5 years with a excellent pension, OT, and other benefits. For a job that only requires you have highschool that is a pretty solid package.



Because the guys across the street, with the exact same training, education and job make on average $20,000 a year more than I do to deal with the same people I do.

https://deltapolice.ca/constable-recruiting/salary-benefits/

I want the same quality of life and ability to afford things for me and my family they have. An astounding number of members badge over to municipals the second they hit two years service so they don't have to pay the RCMP back for their training, and other agencies in this area snap them up as quickly as they can. Fair is fair, and $86,110 a year is not enough to live to my desired standard or a comparable standard to my colleagues in other agencies where I am posted.


----------



## Eaglelord17

RedFive said:
			
		

> Because the guys across the street, with the exact same training, education and job make on average $20,000 a year more than I do to deal with the same people I do.
> 
> https://deltapolice.ca/constable-recruiting/salary-benefits/
> 
> I want the same quality of life and ability to afford things for me and my family they have. An astounding number of members badge over to municipals the second they hit two years service so they don't have to pay the RCMP back for their training, and other agencies in this area snap them up as quickly as they can. Fair is fair, and $86,110 a year is not enough to live to my desired standard or a comparable standard to my colleagues in other agencies where I am posted.



Fair is fair and the fact that other cops are paid those ridiculous salaries is not right. If anything their pay should be matching yours, not the other way around. 86k a year is significantly more than the average income in Canada (about 50k a year) and considering that that average is derived from both the millionaires and billionaires in there as well as the people making next to nothing, there is a whole lot of people making a fraction of what you make with the same education. In fact the median income for Canada for a individual is only 27,600$. The average household income is 76k. So your making 10k more than most households and that is without overtime. 

At some point I hope government salaries rebalance back to a sensible place but they have given me no signs of being able to do that on their own.


----------



## mariomike

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Fair is fair and the fact that other cops are paid those ridiculous salaries is not right. If anything their pay should be matching yours, not the other way around.



While unionization is new for the RCMP, police collective bargaining has been in place in Canada for years. So it should be no surprise that salaries have gone up.

Maybe instead of some people saying, "I don't have it, so they shouldn't either." They could ask, "They have it – why don't I?" 

It's not a race to the bottom.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

And very few of those "other households" need to walk into armed situations.  Your comparison is null and void.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And very few of those "other households" need to walk into armed situations.  Your comparison is null and void.



Is the calculation of salary based on “armed situations”?  If so the how is that calculated?  Are police officers in high crime (armed) cities renumerated more than officers in lower crime cities?  Or is training and education a factor?  If a university degree is the norm then should they be paid more than forces that require only high school?

I don’t bemoan the RCMP wanting to have a competitive salary.  But are salaries too high as it is?  It’s still a valid argument.  Can municipalities afford that rising cost?  Some can.  Maybe that’s the issue.  A city that can afford to pay their police force a far better than average salary does so but then the force two towns over sees what they get paid and want to be comparable but that town can’t afford those salaries.  But they are forced to do so through arbitration.   Cool. Except that town can only afford a smaller force now so the cops there get over worked get ill equipped but their pay is really good.  

It’s a vicious circle and I doubt it can be sustained for much longer.  It seems to have gotten out of control.

I have no clue what the solution is.


----------



## OldSolduer

Remius said:
			
		

> It’s a vicious circle and I doubt it can be sustained for much longer.  It seems to have gotten out of control.
> 
> I have no clue what the solution is.



When the highest paid civic employee is a constable whose salary tops everyone elses - even the mayor - because of overtime etc there maybe a need to adjust the system.

I have no clue how to fix it either.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> Can municipalities afford that rising cost?



For reference,

Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay
https://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-PDFs/Reports/2011/2011AbilitytoPayPositionPaper2011.aspx


----------



## quadrapiper

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> When the highest paid civic employee is a constable whose salary tops everyone elses - even the mayor - because of overtime etc there maybe a need to adjust the system.


The ever-politically-unpalatable "hire more people," combined with funding effective specialist 24-hour non-LEA (and probably non-EMS) responsive/emergency entities to shift workload.


----------



## mariomike

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> When the highest paid civic employee is a constable whose salary tops everyone elses - even the mayor -



According to the 2019 “sunshine list” of public-sector salaries, 

Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders’s pay was $414,954.32.

Toronto Police Constable Abdulhameed Virani made $295,256.93.

Toronto Mayor John Tory's was $197,279.05.


----------



## brihard

Don’t conflate overtime with base salary; cops make more money in overtime when they give more of their time to their employer than what their contract requires. Of course they would be compensated for that.

If you want to argue the merits of base salary, go nuts. Don’t focus on the danger of the job. It’s real, certainly, and close to unique among professionals in that police are expected to go in when nobody else will- but that’s just one factor. I would contend that much more significant is the considerable individual responsibility every officer bears for decisions that can be life or death, life altering, can deprive people of liberty, and can have immense impact on the legal process. Police are also su next 24/7 to codes of conduct that have the force of law, and are subject 24/7, on or off duty, to expectations to act in an emergency to protect others. Police are subject to massive scrutiny, they get targeted with violence, harassed, doxed... At any point they could have to make a decision that could subject them to years of investigations and inquiries, and considerable legal jeopardy. They’re the criminal justice system’s first point of contact with criminal suspects, and are responsible for feeding prosecutors and the courts with useable, viable, credible investigative materials to support charges. They are expected to work 24/7 shifts that don’t care about family life, holidays, etc. The family has to bear the brunt of years and years of their loved one being called over and over to the worst experiences human beings can have.

So yeah, is there a lot of compensation given to police? Objectively, yes there is. But there’s lots to compensate.


----------



## blacktriangle

Rather than paying police less, I'd rather they just have higher standards of training and be more accountable for the decisions they make. Not sure why anyone would want poorly paid police, they have that elsewhere in the world and those countries are dumpster fires. 

I think it also has to do with where you live...I know someone serving as a police officer down south in Silicon Valley. When you look at his salary, overtime, and overall compensation it looks high. Then you look at median income and cost of living where he works, and your perspective shifts a bit.


----------



## brihard

reveng said:
			
		

> Rather than paying police less, I'd rather they just have higher standards of training and be more accountable for the decisions they make. Not sure why anyone would want poorly paid police, they have that elsewhere in the world and those countries are dumpster fires.
> 
> I think it also has to do with where you live...I know someone serving as a police officer down south in Silicon Valley. When you look at his salary, overtime, and overall compensation it looks high. Then you look at median income and cost of living where he works, and your perspective shifts a bit.



Ok, specifics please? In concrete terms what additional training do you believe is required that isn’t offered? I’m a big believer in more training, but I’d like to know what specifically you have in mind.

With regards to accountability, where in the current accountability mechanisms do you feel there are gaps, and what do you propose? Again, concrete examples please.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

If our cops had any more "accountability" there'd be an investigator riding in the back seat of every car....


----------



## blacktriangle

Brihard said:
			
		

> Ok, specifics please? In concrete terms what additional training do you believe is required that isn’t offered? I’m a big believer in more training, but I’d like to know what specifically you have in mind.
> 
> With regards to accountability, where in the current accountability mechanisms do you feel there are gaps, and what do you propose? Again, concrete examples please.



Keep in mind that I'm not an LEO, never have been, never will be. I'm also very pro-LE but also have to call things like I see them. I think you guys and gals get tapped to conduct a full spectrum of operations that no one else wants to do, or is capable of doing. You have a lot on your plate, competing priorities, and resource constraints. So please don't take my following comments as criticism as much as the observations of an average citizen. 

1. More community engagement, breaking down the "us vs them" (fear/distrust) mentality on both sides of the fence. Improved mental health training and response to crisis calls. I also think you guys need to do a better job of taking care of your own and their mental health. How many officers are walking around with god knows what going on in their heads, at home etc but are still going to be on shift tonight when they shouldn't be? On the other end of the spectrum, I think you probably need more training and resources to prepare for high-threat environments (the real bad guys) I think right now, there are lot of generalists when the world increasingly requires specialists (not just a problem with policing)

2. Crooked cop? Firing squad. Concrete enough for you? Excessive use of force resulting in serious injury or death? No hiding behind the system or getting off. Firing squad or prison, no PC. Don't screw with the public trust, and the public that actually votes and pays taxes will be behind you for the most part. Accountability to me does not include sitting at home getting paid six figures for years on end after screwing up royally. I'd rather have higher quality police. Give me better police? I'm all for giving you even better salaries and paying for whatever training and equipment you need to do your jobs safely and effectively. There are literally monsters in this world as you are well aware. I know the alternatives to professional police aren't good. But that still doesn't mean I can't expect you all to be held to the highest standards of training and conduct. Get rid of the bad apples, and if it's the leadership that's the problem, burn the system down and send them packing to early retirement. 

Sorry if this isn't detailed enough for you. I'm just a taxpayer and citizen, like 99% of everyone else watching and judging you 24/7.


----------



## Jarnhamar

* RCMP watchdog says legislation needed to compel timely responses to complaint reports*

The head of the RCMP’s civilian watchdog says legislation compelling the national police agency to respond to its reports faster would increase police accountability “exponentially.”

https://ipolitics.ca/2020/07/24/rcmp-watchdog-says-legislation-needed-to-compel-timely-responses-to-complaint-reports/



17 months on average for interim reports.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> * RCMP watchdog says legislation needed to compel timely responses to complaint reports*
> 
> The head of the RCMP’s civilian watchdog says legislation compelling the national police agency to respond to its reports faster would increase police accountability “exponentially.”
> 
> https://ipolitics.ca/2020/07/24/rcmp-watchdog-says-legislation-needed-to-compel-timely-responses-to-complaint-reports/
> 
> 17 months on average for interim reports.



I’m good with speeding that up- we want accountability systems to move in a more timely manner and not leave members in limbo. A corollary on this one: there’s no gatekeeper, no threshold on what will get entertained as a public complaint. The RCMP and complaints commission are, at their respective levels, obligate to fully entertain and wingnut spouting any nonsense. This likely contributes to the backlog. There is no consequence for repeated, vexatious complaints. Also note that the public complaints system is distinct from the disciplinary process. A complaint absolutely can lead to an RCMP act Code of Conduct investigation, or to a statutory (Eg crim code) investigation. Also worth noting that when an RCMP member is investigated or charged criminally they will likely also separately face a code of conduct disciplinary process that has to wait for the criminal matter to be disposed of in court first. It’s that latter process that can result in the RCMP discharging someone on disciplinary grounds. The code of conduct process has historically been badly used and at times weaponized by management; with the union in place now there should in time be fewer code investigations, and eventually the ones that go will be higher quality. Something like two thirds to three quarters are getting tossed now that members are being provided legal representation. Hopefully once it starts getting used properly the process will speed up for their being less BS getting submitted.

Reveng- I’ll get back to your points later.


----------



## mariomike

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If our cops had any more "accountability" there'd be an investigator riding in the back seat of every car....



Reminds me of a story I read about the 64th United States Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy ( RFK ) during a ride-out with the NYPD in the mid-1950's. 

One night in Harlem, they caught a man sexually abusing a two-year old. As Bobby watched, the police through threw the man out the window.

He kept his mouth shut.   

Edit: spelling.


----------



## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> Reminds me of a story I read about the 64th United States Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy ( RFK ) during a ride-out with the NYPD in the mid-1950's.
> 
> One night in Harlem, they caught a man sexually abusing a two-year old. As Bobby watched, the police through the man out the window.
> 
> He kept his mouth shut.



If true, good on RFK! I hope it was a high window!


----------



## RedFive

reveng said:
			
		

> If true, good on RFK! I hope it was a high window!



That sounds like excessive force, resulting in grievous bodily harm or death. Will you be arranging the firing squad at dawn for those officers after summary trial?


----------



## blacktriangle

RedFive said:
			
		

> That sounds like excessive force, resulting in grievous bodily harm or death. Will you be arranging the firing squad at dawn for those officers after summary trial?



Nope! Just like RFK, I didn't see anything! If I were going to write them up for anything, it would be a commendation. I guess my moral GPS is all over the place, and I apologize if my comments offend you.


----------



## mariomike

reveng said:
			
		

> If true, good on RFK! I hope it was a high window!



Source:

Robert Kennedy: His Life by Evan Thomas page 71.


----------



## RedFive

reveng said:
			
		

> Nope! Just like RFK, I didn't see anything! If I were going to write them up for anything, it would be a commendation. I guess my moral GPS is all over the place, and I apologize if my comments offend you.



Nope, but I've been involved in events that have caused me to be investigated for an accusation of excessive force, where the media was involved and, thankfully my name not released or my reputation would have been in tatters. I have been cleared of wrong doing more than once, and continue to do my job.

I understand, appreciate and honestly welcome the high standard of accountability required in this line of work. The bar to instigate an Independent Investigations Office of BC investigation is pretty low however, and that usually causes a cavalcade of media and public negativity toward the Police as once the IIO is engaged we have no ability to defend ourselves. There is never a retraction or correction of previous stories however, and instead usually a new article that is clearly anti-Police advising the public of how large a travesty it is another Police officer has gotten away with "it" again, whatever the "it" is.

I was not involved in this incident, but I'll leave this link for you to have a look at the level of accountability, depth of investigation, and stress a former member of my Detachment was subjected to, eventually being cleared.

https://iiobc.ca/app/uploads/sites/472/2015/07/2015-107.pdf

The IIO is the result of the YVR taser incident, and despite screams of Police cover-up and corruption, their investigations have yet to convict a single Police Officer of excessive force.


----------



## Jarnhamar

RedFive said:
			
		

> That sounds like excessive force, resulting in grievous bodily harm or death. *Will you be arranging the firing squad at dawn for those officers after summary trial?*


*
RCMP deleted documents in wrongful conviction case, federal report finds*
The bundle of documents released by a Nova Scotia Supreme Court judge Friday were instrumental in overturning the murder conviction of Glen Assoun, _who spent nearly 17 years behind bars._
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/glen-assoun-wrongful-conviction-records-unsealed-1.5207994


I used to be very pro-capital punishment until Brihard annoyingly got me thinking what if the person is innocent.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

RedFive said:
			
		

> Nope, but I've been involved in events that have caused me to be investigated for an accusation of excessive force, where the media was involved and, thankfully my name not released or my reputation would have been in tatters. I have been cleared of wrong doing more than once, and continue to do my job.
> 
> I understand, appreciate and honestly welcome the high standard of accountability required in this line of work. The bar to instigate an Independent Investigations Office of BC investigation is pretty low however, and that usually causes a cavalcade of media and public negativity toward the Police as once the IIO is engaged we have no ability to defend ourselves. There is never a retraction or correction of previous stories however, and instead usually a new article that is clearly anti-Police advising the public of how large a travesty it is another Police officer has gotten away with "it" again, whatever the "it" is.
> 
> I was not involved in this incident, but I'll leave this link for you to have a look at the level of accountability, depth of investigation, and stress a former member of my Detachment was subjected to, eventually being cleared.
> 
> https://iiobc.ca/app/uploads/sites/472/2015/07/2015-107.pdf
> 
> The IIO is the result of the YVR taser incident, and despite screams of Police cover-up and corruption, their investigations have yet to convict a single Police Officer of excessive force.



So no different than anyone else who gets accused of a crime they may or may not have committed?  I don't see an issue with this.

Court of public opinion is a tough place, comes with the territory.


----------



## Jarnhamar

RedFive said:
			
		

> Nope, but I've been involved in events that have caused me to be investigated for an accusation of excessive force, where the media was involved and, thankfully my name not released or my reputation would have been in tatters. I have been cleared of wrong doing more than once, and continue to do my job.



I'm glad you were cleared and glad no one released your name. I think that's absolutely a great point how your name and reputation would be in tatters. Not to mention the online abuse you and your family would be subjected to.

I think it's easy to overlook the microscope LEOs are under and the constant challenges to their behavior, reactions and decisions.
On one hand it's absolutely necessary because if you guys fuck up then peoples lives can be destroyed pretty easily. At the same time you guys operating in that environment must be brutal. 

I've worked for a very very micromanaging and untrusting CoC and that type of constant micromanaging and criticism was the worst work place environment I've worked in.


----------



## brihard

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> So no different than anyone else who gets accused of a crime they may or may not have committed?  I don't see an issue with this.
> 
> Court of public opinion is a tough place, comes with the territory.



In exceptionally few circumstances will someone's job put them over and over and over again into situations where people will make such complaints vexatiously or maliciously, nor where the court of public opinion will pursue the matter so belligerently. It's widely known at this point that anyone can select part of a video of a rough arrest (and bad choices ont he part of the suspect often necessitate those), get that video online, make a false claim and name the officer, and it's off to the races. There is no accountability for this. People who make false claims about excessive force, or who dox officers or what have you don't face any repercussions. So I would say it's not at all analogous to Joe from the auto body shop who gets in a drunken brawl on the weekend, eats an assault charge, and gets his name in the small town newspaper. Recognize also that in the case of criminal charges, generally a reasonably high threshold has already been met for charges to be laid. There is not such threshold for the sorts of complaints and public allegations RedFive is talking about.

I've been on the wrong end of a number of public complaints - for racism, for excessive force, for sexual assault in a cell block, for 'unlawful detention' (that one was truly hilarious) and so on and so forth. All but one were utter BS, and the one that I ate I absolutely deserved- not paying enough attention at night, thought I had time at an intersection, and hit the intersection as the light went red. Happened to be in front of an extremely prolific public complainer who had a dash cam. Completely my fault and I owned it. All of the others complaints and the lawsuit I was subjected to were BS and were ruled that way... But absolutely nothing tested those complaints for even so much as plausibility before they were fully pursued. Fortunately I've not been on the wrong end of a 'name and shame', but guys I know have, for situations where they did nothing wrong and where someone is trying to dodge or minimize their own accountability for the thing that got them arrested in the first place.

Now, you can argue, fairly, that in these cases the accountability mechanisms worked, and that facts resulted in the proper decision. I'm good with that. The point I'm making, taking this back to questions of accountability and compensation, is that this is an absolutely constant aspect of the job for anyone working front line. The only protection we have from those who use the system maliciously is due process- disciplinary hearings where we can have counsel, the right to remain silent on allegations we're confronted with, support provided by the union... Being constantly subjected to that degree of scrutiny and - frankly - malice and hatred - takes a toll and forms part of the working conditions that result in police being paid comparatively well. Few other people are forced to confront the opposition that comes when your day to day job is holding people accountable for their poor choices.

It's fine. We need to have this degree of accountability - although some things could definitely be tightened up. But it's not something many other people are subject to, nor something that I think many people are really able to grasp as a day to day reality.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I used to be very pro-capital punishment until Brihard annoyingly got me thinking what if the person is innocent.



The numbers are astonishing, apparently. 

However, there are those who argue that Canada’s ‘mandatory 25 years before parole’, the Dangerous Offender sentence (one of the most severe anywhere in the ‘free’ world) is worse than execution in some ways.


----------



## RedFive

Having gone back through my previous responses, I want to make it clear I welcome the level of scrutiny I am subject to in the execution of my duties. I do my best to try and remain open minded, and remember that I am on the "inside" and do not perceive things the way the general public does. I try my best to remain free of the "us vs. them" mentality, although I'm not always successful. I also work for a notoriously and unrepentantly closed door organization, where everything is "subject to an investigation" and "will not be commented on at this time". Or, you know, the OPP investigation into senior management refusing to disclose information they have been ordered to by a Court.

All that to say, after months of anti-police narrative coming from the media, government, members of the public I have interacted with et cetera, I find this discussion refreshingly open and easy to partake in, even if not everybody here sees things the way I do.

Thanks.

And, as usual, Brihard has done a much better job of explaining my position than I could.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And very few of those "other households" need to walk into armed situations.  Your comparison is null and void.



Plenty of other people in this country work dangerous jobs as well, I could have easily died at work a month and a half ago. The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic? 

My point is how much money do we need to pay people with a high school education. In a perfect world we would pay everyone infinite money and we would all be happy. However this is the real world and putting in perspective how much money the rest of the population make (who pretty much all meet the minimum standard to get hired for the police education wise) gives a good indication of how much should we really be paying the police. I personally think the RCMP salaries look very reasonable for the job being asked of them. I am not blind and clueless to what they do, I understand how miserable and thankless a job it can be. Ultimately there is risk, but it is also safer to be a cop in 2020 than it ever has been. Crime has been on the decline for decades, body armour has made it so your odds of dying if you actually get into a gun fight are dramatically lower, and the training is significantly better than it has ever been.

I have mentioned before my solution to the growth of government salaries well beyond their private sector counter-parts and that is to tie the wage into a simple base formula. Such as the average salary should be 1.7 time the average Canadian salary (random number pulled out of thin air). As the economy booms and peoples salaries increase so does the government employees. As the economy retracts and the public suffers so does the government employees. This would be the fairest way to do a salary possible.


----------



## Remius

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Plenty of other people in this country work dangerous jobs as well, I could have easily died at work a month and a half ago. The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?



There are plenty of statistics that back this up.  

https://pursuit.ca/money-work/canadas-dangerous-jobs/

Seems that construction and manufacturing are the biggest ones that can lead to death.

If COVID has taught us anything is that some of the most seemingly insignificant jobs are actually what keeps society going.  At 15$ an hour.  Perspective I guess.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?



Captain  PI 10  $8718 a month.   And lots of rungs on that ladder yet...


----------



## GR66

Remius said:
			
		

> There are plenty of statistics that back this up.
> 
> https://pursuit.ca/money-work/canadas-dangerous-jobs/
> 
> Seems that construction and manufacturing are the biggest ones that can lead to death.
> 
> If COVID has taught us anything is that some of the most seemingly insignificant jobs are actually what keeps society going.  At 15$ an hour.  Perspective I guess.



Putting some more specific numbers to the above:  https://www.monster.ca/career-advice/article/canada-most-dangerous-jobs-ca

I can't wait for my raise!

 ;D


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Not sure I'd believe much in there....

"People choose these sorts of jobs for more than just salary and benefits. Today's 6,600 prison guards often work under threatening conditions. Yet they earn an average of $45,000 per year.
A sense of public duty, or civic service, can motivate people to pursue such less-safe professions. However there are all sorts of jobs that are just as dangerous, where intrinsic rewards are few."

Unless some other provinces are making minimum wage to balance that figure out.


----------



## mariomike

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> The military a organization where they can literally order you to your death pays significantly less then the police, do they not deserve the same compensation by your logic?



I don't know about being ordered to our deaths. This was our departmental SOP about our right to refuse unsafe work, 



> Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Captain  PI 10  $8718 a month.   And lots of rungs on that ladder yet...



Are Captains comparable to Constables though?  Or would they be more comparable to Staff Sgts or Inspectors?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Remius said:
			
		

> Are Captains comparable to Constables though?  Or would they be more comparable to Staff Sgts or Inspectors?



Not touching this one.... ;D


----------



## brihard

Remius said:
			
		

> Are Captains comparable to Constables though?  Or would they be more comparable to Staff Sgts or Inspectors?



Depends. In many cases the constables are having to operate much more independently and make much more consequential decisions, more quickly, with less oversight, and a hell of a lot less backup, and higher consequences of getting it wrong.

Bear in mind that for most police, the majority of their career is spent 'operational', doing the job for real, not in a training or institutional setting.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> Depends. In many cases the constables are having to operate much more independently and make much more consequential decisions, more quickly, with less oversight, and a hell of a lot less backup, and higher consequences of getting it wrong.



A scenario akin to Hillier's "strategic corporal".


----------



## Jarnhamar

I bet a strategic corporal came up with this sucker








https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/unbelievably-inappropriate-calgary-police-prohibit-distribution-of-offensive-coin


When did the Calgary police start using Kodiak Defence WK180's?


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> A scenario akin to Hillier's "strategic corporal".



Indeed. Very routinely, Cst and Cpls (who aren't paid much more) are making real time operational decisions and taking on responsibilities that CAF would shiver in fear at the prospect of being entrusted to anything less than a Capt or Maj. When it's four guys on shift in a mid sized town town and something serious brews up over night, the five year Cst who's senior and acting as the Cpl that night might have to make some important and fast calls if something goes down. That's to say nothing of the responsibility any of us could end up taking on in serious and complex investigations. I've worked on stuff in the past year where I've been astounded that it's me or in some cases another relatively junior Cst in the chair doing stuff that will have real significance in court on a major matter.

The whole running into danger is, again, just one aspect of the job, and not the bulk of it. the degree of responsibility police routinely have to take on can be very significant, and dwarfs the consequence of what many managers in other professions would face. All the moreso outside a major urban force. In a lot of RCMP detachments across the country, they can go weeks where the Cpl or Sgt is on leave, and there's a constable running all of the operational policing for hours in every direction, as well as running the actual detachment itself and everything that comes with that.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> Bear in mind that for most police, the majority of their career is spent 'operational', doing the job for real, not in a training or institutional setting.



Forty hours a week, year after year, responding to 9-1-1 calls must have a cumulative effect on some ( most? ) people. 

At least we were on the couch, and had 60 seconds of "chute time" to get the doors up and wheels rolling.

Even harder for the police because, being mobile, they have to immediately drop it into gear and hit the accelerator.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I bet a strategic corporal came up with this sucker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/unbelievably-inappropriate-calgary-police-prohibit-distribution-of-offensive-coin
> 
> 
> When did the Calgary police start using Kodiak Defence WK180's?



 :rofl:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brihard said:
			
		

> In exceptionally few circumstances will someone's job put them over and over and over again into situations where people will make such complaints vexatiously or maliciously, nor where the court of public opinion will pursue the matter so belligerently. It's widely known at this point that anyone can select part of a video of a rough arrest (and bad choices ont he part of the suspect often necessitate those), get that video online, make a false claim and name the officer, and it's off to the races. There is no accountability for this. People who make false claims about excessive force, or who dox officers or what have you don't face any repercussions. So I would say it's not at all analogous to Joe from the auto body shop who gets in a drunken brawl on the weekend, eats an assault charge, and gets his name in the small town newspaper. Recognize also that in the case of criminal charges, generally a reasonably high threshold has already been met for charges to be laid. There is not such threshold for the sorts of complaints and public allegations RedFive is talking about.
> 
> I've been on the wrong end of a number of public complaints - for racism, for excessive force, for sexual assault in a cell block, for 'unlawful detention' (that one was truly hilarious) and so on and so forth. All but one were utter BS, and the one that I ate I absolutely deserved- not paying enough attention at night, thought I had time at an intersection, and hit the intersection as the light went red. Happened to be in front of an extremely prolific public complainer who had a dash cam. Completely my fault and I owned it. All of the others complaints and the lawsuit I was subjected to were BS and were ruled that way... But absolutely nothing tested those complaints for even so much as plausibility before they were fully pursued. Fortunately I've not been on the wrong end of a 'name and shame', but guys I know have, for situations where they did nothing wrong and where someone is trying to dodge or minimize their own accountability for the thing that got them arrested in the first place.
> 
> Now, you can argue, fairly, that in these cases the accountability mechanisms worked, and that facts resulted in the proper decision. I'm good with that. The point I'm making, taking this back to questions of accountability and compensation, is that this is an absolutely constant aspect of the job for anyone working front line. The only protection we have from those who use the system maliciously is due process- disciplinary hearings where we can have counsel, the right to remain silent on allegations we're confronted with, support provided by the union... Being constantly subjected to that degree of scrutiny and - frankly - malice and hatred - takes a toll and forms part of the working conditions that result in police being paid comparatively well. Few other people are forced to confront the opposition that comes when your day to day job is holding people accountable for their poor choices.
> 
> It's fine. We need to have this degree of accountability - although some things could definitely be tightened up. But it's not something many other people are subject to, nor something that I think many people are really able to grasp as a day to day reality.



Really?  There are plenty of jobs where people are subjected to tonnes of stress and subjected to numerous complaints.  Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Bankers, Politicans, basically anyone in the service industry. 

If it's a job that serves the public, you're subject to oversight and accountability for your actions.  Unlike Police though, others don't have qualified immunity.  

My wife is a Banker and is subjected to verbal intimidation, name calling, harassment, etc. Almost daily and like Cops, nobody likes Bankers. Try telling someone who is suicidal and on the brink of insolvency that you won't refinance their debts for them even though you may personally want to because you feel compassion for that person but the Underwriter, who is a faceless person, flat out says no.  Not easy but again it comes with the territory of the job.

Even better, part of her compensation package is based on customer satisfaction.  Imagine if police compensation was based on general public satisfaction?  

I don't feel one bit sorry for any Police Officer that gets subjected to any investigations or ends up suffering professionally as a result of those investigations.  Can't handle the heat, go get another job but I would say the same about any job really.  

Police don't have a monopoly on occupational stress. 
Lately though, they do seem to have a monopoly on pity parties and an unhealthy amount of people with savior complexes in the ranks.  I could say the same about a number of people in the Military though and numerous Veterans Associations, so the brotherhood of Police Officers is not alone in thay regard.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Indeed. Very routinely, Cst and Cpls (who aren't paid much more) are making real time operational decisions and taking on responsibilities that CAF would shiver in fear at the prospect of being entrusted to anything less than a Capt or Maj. When it's four guys on shift in a mid sized town town and something serious brews up over night, the five year Cst who's senior and acting as the Cpl that night might have to make some important and fast calls if something goes down. That's to say nothing of the responsibility any of us could end up taking on in serious and complex investigations. I've worked on stuff in the past year where I've been astounded that it's me or in some cases another relatively junior Cst in the chair doing stuff that will have real significance in court on a major matter.
> 
> The whole running into danger is, again, just one aspect of the job, and not the bulk of it. the degree of responsibility police routinely have to take on can be very significant, and dwarfs the consequence of what many managers in other professions would face. All the moreso outside a major urban force. In a lot of RCMP detachments across the country, they can go weeks where the Cpl or Sgt is on leave, and there's a constable running all of the operational policing for hours in every direction, as well as running the actual detachment itself and everything that comes with that.



This is a very narrow viewpoint of what some trades in the CAF do and I would say is drawn from your own personal experience rather than a broad overview of what different trades and occupations do in the CAF.  

There are trades in the CAF where immense levels of responsibility are placed on junior members all the time.  You can come on a ship sometime and engineering personnel go through a set of Engineering Emergency Drills sometime if you want to see some stress and junior personnel trying to work through and solve what can at times be some complex problems with a ship's engineering systems.  Occasionally, these are real time and when they go sideways, you end up with a Protecteur incident.

As for compensation, I agree with you that the rank and file RCMP aren't paid enough; however, I also think certain Municipal Forces are paid way too much for what they actually do.  A constable compensated $295,000 in a year is ridiculous, that's more than some Doctors are compensated.  Well played by the Union for getting it to this point and the individual officer may pull a lot of over time but that's a massive missuse of taxpayer money and we are being robbed blind.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

A Banker and a Cop comparison??  Get serious....




			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> As for compensation, I agree with you that the rank and file RCMP aren't paid enough; however, I also think certain Municipal Forces are paid way too much for what they actually do.  A constable compensated $295,000 in a year is ridiculous, that's more than some Doctors are compensated.  Well played by the Union for getting it to this point and the individual officer may pull a lot of over time but that's a massive missuse of taxpayer money and we are being robbed blind.



Actually if him/her decided to do that much overtime it probably saved money for the Govt.  There are 3 of us here with over 1000 hours overtime each....and the big ticket expenses of benefits and pension didn't cost my employer one extra cent.  Extra employee's would have....


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> A Banker and a Cop comparison??  Get serious....
> 
> 
> Actually if him/her decided to do that much overtime it probably saved money for the Govt.  There are 3 of us here with over 1000 hours overtime each....and the big ticket expenses of benefits and pension didn't cost my employer one extra cent.  Extra employee's would have....



Sidebar question: I have always wondered about that. Is your pension based upon your base pay or how much overtime you accrue?


----------



## mariomike

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Is your pension based upon your base pay or how much overtime you accrue?



Ontario municipal police, firefighters and paramedics are in the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System ( OMERS ). 

I have been an OMERS member since 1972.

Pension is based up base pay. Overtime is not included.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

mariomike said:
			
		

> Ontario municipal police, firefighters and paramedics are in the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System ( OMERS ).
> 
> I have been an OMERS member since 1972.
> 
> Pension is based up base pay. Overtime is not included.



Thanks! Like I said- always wondered about that.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> A Banker and a Cop comparison??  Get serious....
> 
> 
> Actually if him/her decided to do that much overtime it probably saved money for the Govt.  There are 3 of us here with over 1000 hours overtime each....and the big ticket expenses of benefits and pension didn't cost my employer one extra cent.  Extra employee's would have....



I would absolutely love to see you sit in her chair and stickhandle some of the issues.  I would bring popcorn  :rofl:

From what I can tell, there are many professions that could use more than a bit of humility.  Police and Military are both near the very top of that list.


----------



## mariomike

Ontario Corrections  and OPP, may include OT? I don't know.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

They don't...I mean I pay more into it when I do overtime, but get no financial benefit from it. [base salary, 5 best years]   The Govt also doesn't pay any more for their share.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding bank managers. In Toronto, they used to be armed. And they were required to practice at indoor gun ranges. 

That came to an end when a bullet fired by a manager during a bank robbery in Toronto ricocheted off a wall and killed a teller.


----------



## brihard

The only police service I’m aware of with pensionable overtime was Winnipeg, and they recently lost that. Quite reasonably, it was deemed to be fiscally unsustainable. I don’t have a problem with that.

Humphrey Bogart: Absoluty a lot of people in CAF do carry a lot of individual responsibility for safety of systems and such, and I think the navy could stake a fair claim to this being the most the case. You’ll note that I wasn’t speaking in anything close to absolutes. But I’ll absolutely stand by what I said. If someone wants to compare police pay to the average CAF captain/Lt(N), I’m comfortable with that comparison. There will be those on both sides who face even more and plenty who face less, but in the aggregate the weight of responsibility on police officers can be immense. It’s not a lack of humility to say that, it’s objective reality, and I’m fully prepared to show receipts.


----------



## blacktriangle

In certain trades & organizations, Cpls and MCpls make calls that can have immediate repercussions at both the tactical and strategic levels. Same with Capt/Lt(N). Some of these positions are compensated accordingly, and others probably should have their compensation reviewed.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to compare the average Cpl in garrison or a Capt in an Admin/Trg role to the duties of an LEO out on patrol.

I think it's clear that LEOs have a tough job with unique challenges and stressors. We put a lot of responsibility and power in their hands. They should be rigorously screened, well trained, and well paid. At the end of the day though, they are all volunteers, and are also members of society and their respective communities. As long as they remember that fact, and practice proper application of the powers we invest in them, they have my support 100%. They have a job to do, and it's keeping the rest of us safe, so we can do our jobs and collectively prosper as a civilization. I'm happy to support them and recognize that they are in fact a thin blue line, and just hope they can remember they are but one colour on a much broader societal spectrum.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I would absolutely love to see you sit in her chair and stickhandle some of the issues.  I would bring popcorn  :rofl:
> 
> From what I can tell, there are many professions that could use more than a bit of humility.  Police and Military are both near the very top of that list.



I stopped into one of the local Lifelabs the other day so they could Dracula me. 

Sitting there, overhearing some of the guff handed out to the staff by a few of the sh*trats in there and wondering when/if I should step in, I was pretty certain there is no way I could do that job (without winding up with an assault conviction) .


----------



## blacktriangle

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I stopped into one of the local Lifelabs the other day so they could Dracula me.
> 
> Sitting there, overhearing some of the guff handed out to the staff by a few of the sh*trats in there and wondering when/if I should step in, I was pretty certain there is no way I could do that job (without winding up with an assault conviction) .



When I was deciding on a second career, I looked at going back to school to become a PA. Then I thought about the people I'd actually have to deal with, and promptly ruled out anything in healthcare...sounds like I made a good call. It seems like anything that involves the public is more stress than it's worth. Perhaps this is less a reflection on the occupations that deal with the public, and more a reflection on the public itself.


----------



## daftandbarmy

reveng said:
			
		

> When I was deciding on a second career, I looked at going back to school to become a PA. Then I thought about the people I'd actually have to deal with, and promptly ruled out anything in healthcare...sounds like I made a good call. It seems like anything that involves the public is more stress than it's worth. Perhaps this is less a reflection on the occupations that deal with the public, and more a reflection on the public itself.



They did a great job talking these idiots down. I was thinking of suggesting that they hire security guards for staff protection.

Anyone know Charlie Brown? (seriously, that's the name of their CEO  ) https://www.lifelabs.com/leadership/charles-brown/#:~:text=Charles%20Brown%20is%20President%20and,diagnostics%20and%20health%20technology%20provider.


----------



## Navy_Pete

reveng said:
			
		

> When I was deciding on a second career, I looked at going back to school to become a PA. Then I thought about the people I'd actually have to deal with, and promptly ruled out anything in healthcare...sounds like I made a good call. It seems like anything that involves the public is more stress than it's worth. Perhaps this is less a reflection on the occupations that deal with the public, and more a reflection on the public itself.



I think everyone should work a retail job early on in life; the display of awful human behaviour they regularly deal with is pretty incredible.People can be especially terrible if they feel a sense of superiority over whoever they are dealing with.


----------



## brihard

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I think everyone should work a retail job early on in life; the display of awful human behaviour they regularly deal with is pretty incredible.People can be especially terrible if they feel a sense of superiority over whoever they are dealing with.



Oh man, no kidding. Not all bad though, I helped Rick Hillier find an air compressor once when I was a hardware kid at Canadian Tire.


----------



## mariomike

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I think everyone should work a retail job early on in life; the display of awful human behaviour they regularly deal with is pretty incredible.People can be especially terrible if they feel a sense of superiority over whoever they are dealing with.



Or being sent into people's homes. It sounds corny, but I believe good customer service starts with a smile and a shoe shine.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> *Or being sent into people's homes. *It sounds corny, but I believe good customer service starts with a smile and a shoe shine.



Speaking of which, incidents like this are insanely complex and tragic, but seem to be more prevalent these Crazy COVID days. I don't envy the cops that have to take on these assignments, at all:

Family of woman killed by police with plastic bullets tried for years to get help

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/family-of-woman-killed-by-police-with-plastic-bullets-tried-for-years-to-get-help-1.24222553


----------



## Eaglelord17

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Captain  PI 10  $8718 a month.   And lots of rungs on that ladder yet...



Ok vs military police officer getting paid about 5616$ a month? Apples and apples. 

I am not against the police being paid fairly. To me the RCMP wages seem very reasonable for what the job is. I think everywhere else should be falling in line along the same wages. That would mean better gear for more people (as there is more money to be dispersed for equipment), more police officers (making the job safer), and potentially saving the tax payers money if they don't need to hire more. I am not arguing OT, as OT is something your choosing to earn, though if there is too much OT it means they need to hire more officers not pay the few they have more.


----------



## mariomike

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> To me the RCMP wages seem very reasonable for what the job is. I think everywhere else should be falling in line along the same wages.



While unionization is new for the RCMP, police collective bargaining has been in place in Canada for years. So it should be no surprise that salaries have gone up.

Maybe instead of some people saying, "I don't have it, so they shouldn't either." They could ask, "They have it – why don't I?" 

It's not a race to the bottom.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brihard said:
			
		

> The only police service I’m aware of with pensionable overtime was Winnipeg, and they recently lost that. Quite reasonably, it was deemed to be fiscally unsustainable. I don’t have a problem with that.
> 
> Humphrey Bogart: Absoluty a lot of people in CAF do carry a lot of individual responsibility for safety of systems and such, and I think the navy could stake a fair claim to this being the most the case. You’ll note that I wasn’t speaking in anything close to absolutes. But I’ll absolutely stand by what I said. If someone wants to compare police pay to the average CAF captain/Lt(N), I’m comfortable with that comparison. There will be those on both sides who face even more and plenty who face less, but in the aggregate the weight of responsibility on police officers can be immense. It’s not a lack of humility to say that, it’s objective reality, and I’m fully prepared to show receipts.



I think that's reasonable Brihard, I also think the fact that all Police Officers are badged and hold Peace Officer Status makes them share far more in common with Commissioned Officers than Non-Commissioned Members of the CAF in that they have Authority far and above what a Non-Commissioned Member below the rank of Warrant Officer would have.  

I also think the fact that Police Officers hold Peace Officer Status means they should be held to a far higher level of accountability than someone who doesn't hold that status.  Ditto for Commissioned Officers in the CAF, though we have seen in both cases that this isn't always the case but it should be.  

As for salaries, I absolutely believe the RCMP needs to be paid more but I'm less convinced that any Police Officer holding an entry level rank should be making close to $300k annually, overtime or not.

Others have pointed out that this is a result of nickle and diming on hiring more Officers to get out of pension contributions and benefits but I don't think that explains it completely.  The Unions have played a part in this for sure but my gut feeling is this is going to lead to growth of Privatized Security Firms in the long term.  

Many Private Firms are already providing these services and I can see in the future, Police Forces pricing themselves out of the game.


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Many Private Firms are already providing these services and I can see in the future, Police Forces pricing themselves out of the game.



Omnicorp


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> Omnicorp



Gardaworld is one of the largest in the World and is headquartered in Quebec.

It's already happening South of the border in places like Seattle and Portland with companies like CGS providing Armed and Unarmed solutions for clients.

https://youtu.be/vD4j-CRuiFI

https://cascadiaglobalsecurity.com/global-security-services/


----------



## mariomike

Rent-a-Cop? No thanks.

The only real sure thing in this town is that when you dial 9-1-1 they send professionals.

I don't like paying property tax any more than the next guy, or gal. But, let's not go cheap on our emergency services.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Rent-a-Cop? No thanks.
> 
> The only real sure thing in this town is that when you dial 9-1-1 they send professionals.



Which in your own words were very difficult to fire.

I think if you offered competitive wages and the threat of being fired on the spot for doing something dumb you'll get some high end workers.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Which in your own words were very difficult to fire.



Read what I typed, Jarnhamar.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Depends on the organization, I guess. It was almost impossible to get thrown out of ours. You really had to put your mind to it. Unless you became a public disgrace, they'd tolerate almost anything.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I did read what you said. Less a public disgrace it was almost impossible to get thrown out of your organization as they would tolerate almost anything.

That's not a good thing IMO. Sorry if I'm missing something.


----------



## dapaterson

A tenant owed his landlord, an Ottawa Police Officer, overdue rent.  The OPS officer made the following threats (all recorded by his tenant).  After four years on suspension with pay, the OPS officer was given a twelve month demotion.  Retained as a cop.  Not fired.  The trier of facts is a retired deputy chief from the York Regional Police.  So Cops don't think behaviour like this is a reason for firing.

https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/news-and-community/resources/Cst-Mesic-Decision.pdf




> Constable Mesic also made numerous threatening statements towards Mr. Lavoie including:
> (1) “If you think you met bad people, you haven’t met bad people. Okay. Because I don’t give a shit.  For money, people break legs, am I right?”
> (2) “I also have issues with the bank because I’m short. I’m short that I can’t pay, okay, and if I can’t  pay, I’m losing that house and if I lose that house, I’m basically losing the future of my kids,  right? And if I lose the future of my kids, you know what happens, it makes me a desperate man.  Do you know what a desperate man does”
> (3) “Even Harry told you don’t fuck with him, right? […] Harry told you, “You can’t fucking do this.”  To‐to‐especially not me. Because what happens is you’re jeopardizing yourself, you’re  jeopardizing your son’s future, you already had issues before and now we’re having issues again.  Right?"
> (4) “I don’t care. I don’t care. Sell your kid. I don’t give a shit. Make your wife do something.”
> (5) “I guarantee you. I’m going to spill blood. Okay.”
> 
> ...
> 
> (1) “I’ve told you a couple of times now and I do not give a shit, people for money they kill right?  Your life is not worth to me 2000$ ok?”
> (2) “I will put you in trouble that you will not recuperate for the next 10 years.”
> (3) “I guarantee you, I’m going to feed you to the fish.”
> (4) “And I don’t give a fuck what’s going to happen after because you will not be able to – fucking recuperate from that. Do understand that?”
> 
> ...
> 
> (1) “If there is any damage in the house and all that stuff, I will come back after you?”
> (2) ‘Mario, if you fuck me over money, you know you can’t hide from me right?”
> (3) ‘You know I’m going to come after you, I’m going to find out where you live, I’m going to find out how you live, and I’m going to – I’m going to bury you. I’m going to feed you to the fish. Okay.  With a big brick around your neck. Do you understand that?”
> (4) “I’m a very nice guy with a very short fuse. Okay. If this happens, to actually burn out my fuse,  I’m telling you, you will have none at all”.
> (5) “Second thing is, you speak to anybody about this and it comes back to me at all, I guarantee you…”
> (6) “And you leaving is not an option.”
> (7) “You don’t have money, I will find you. I guarantee you I will find you, I will bury you. Then you can explain to your kids and the rest of your family how bad of a landlord I was. Okay. ‘Cause I can’t give a fuck, just five days ago, you had the money and you fucked with me.”
> (8 ) “I will fucking take your kid and I will sell it. I don’t give a fuck.”
> (9) ‘There are two ways of dealing with it: Whether legit or with a paper or with force. Okay and I’ve done both, and I’m not going to fuck around with you. I’ve tried to be nice with you…”
> 
> ...
> 
> (1) “Yeah, you don’t – you shouldn’t – you can’t feel safe. Tonight you’re back in – in the house, I’m going to walk in there and I’m going to hang you.”


----------



## Jarnhamar

Holy shit.


----------



## blacktriangle

dapaterson said:
			
		

> A tenant owed his landlord, an Ottawa Police Officer, overdue rent.  The OPS officer made the following threats (all recorded by his tenant).  After four years on suspension with pay, the OPS officer was given a twelve month demotion.  Retained as a cop.  Not fired.  The trier of facts is a retired deputy chief from the York Regional Police.  So Cops don't think behaviour like this is a reason for firing.
> 
> https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/news-and-community/resources/Cst-Mesic-Decision.pdf



There are some real gems on City/Municipal forces, that's for sure. It's like some of them had the movie Harsh Times playing on an endless loop when they were younger. And these are the guys/gals making the big bucks, aren't they? I've definitely had better encounters with OPP, RCMP etc to their credit. Maybe it has to do with them being more on their own and not having backup always so close at hand? Not sure if there is anything to this, or if it's just coincidence/perception.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Theres probably only one LEO in Canada that thinks this guy should have kept his job.....unfortunately he must have been the trier.


----------



## blacktriangle

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Theres probably only one LEO in Canada that thinks this guy should have kept his job.....unfortunately he must have been the trier.



With luck like that, that dirty cop shouldn't need his job. I'd be heading straight to the casino or to buy a lottery ticket.

There should be a way for LEOs to refuse to serve with someone like this, essentially making him unemployable. Clean house from the inside, and preserve the integrity of the profession. Much better to handle things yourself, no? Before someone else decides enough is enough and comes in and does it for you, and likely overreaches in such a way that negatively impacts those doing their best everyday.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Theres probably only one LEO in Canada that thinks this guy should have kept his job.....unfortunately he must have been the trier.



I wonder what the cop ‘has’ on that guy


----------



## blacktriangle

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I wonder what the cop ‘has’ on that guy



The better question is why the subj officer and anyone else facilitating his continued service aren't being paid a very early morning visit by an anti-corruption task force, and being escorted away for some serious "reeducation".


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> A tenant owed his landlord, an Ottawa Police Officer, overdue rent.  The OPS officer made the following threats (all recorded by his tenant).  After four years on suspension with pay, the OPS officer was given a twelve month demotion.  Retained as a cop.  Not fired.  The trier of facts is a retired deputy chief from the York Regional Police.  So Cops don't think behaviour like this is a reason for firing.
> 
> https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/news-and-community/resources/Cst-Mesic-Decision.pdf



He’s a disgrace to the profession, and tarnishes the rest of us by association. I can’t wrap my head around how this guy wasn’t fired. I’m at least confident my outfit would have sent him packing, but it’s a huge piss off that he kept his job. Our system absolutely does fail sometimes, and this is one of those cases.


----------



## dapaterson

reveng said:
			
		

> With luck like that, that dirty cop shouldn't need his job. I'd be heading straight to the casino or to buy a lottery ticket.
> 
> There should be a way for LEOs to refuse to serve with someone like this, essentially making him unemployable. Clean house from the inside, and preserve the integrity of the profession. Much better to handle things yourself, no? Before someone else decides enough is enough and comes in and does it for you, and likely overreaches in such a way that negatively impacts those doing their best everyday.



The head of the union in Ottawa is currently under investigation.  Again.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-professional-standards-section-investigating-alleged-recording-of-police-union-head-1.4992969

Ottawa's police currently has officers suspended for taking bribes, recording and ridiculing people, sexual harassment in the workplace...  there's no integrity there to preserve.


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The head of the union in Ottawa is currently under investigation.  Again.
> 
> https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-professional-standards-section-investigating-alleged-recording-of-police-union-head-1.4992969
> 
> Ottawa's police currently has officers suspended for taking bribes, recording and ridiculing people, sexual harassment in the workplace...  there's no integrity there to preserve.



OPS is a dumpster fire right now and has been for a few years. I have a few friends in that organization, and I don’t envy them at all. I won’t be surprised if we pick up some laterals once our pay comes up. Their new Chief seems determined to try to start cleaning shop, and he’s built a new directorate that basically has this as a mandate, but he’s got his work cut out for him.


----------



## dapaterson

A few officers standing up against the brotherhood could be an impetus for change.

As long as Skof keeps being the only voice of the rank and file, well, cutting OPS budget and zero pay inreases will get my vote.


----------



## blacktriangle

dapaterson said:
			
		

> A few officers standing up against the brotherhood could be an impetus for change.



Well said.


----------



## lenaitch

Interesting and fast moving discussion.

I have a hard time finding a comparison between a police officer and CAF member, in that I have a difficult time envisioning an instance where a CAF member goes out, on a regular basis, not in exercise or training, and executes their authority as independently as a police officer, often alone.  Perhaps there are but I readily can't think of one.  Civilian law enforcement and military life are completely different worlds.

The 'alone' part is significant, particularly for deployed forced, but even in urban areas, where back-up and supervision is often readily at hand, the exercise of lawful authority lies solely with the member who exercises it (or doesn't).  For deployed forces, the 'alone' part is more physical.  I once witnesses a city-wide 'PC assist' in Toronto, and it was a wonder to behold, but I have been both on the requesting and responding end of rural assistance, where the car is an hour away.  It is true that there are many other jobs and professions that are much more death or injury prone.  Provincial labour data proves this.  But I doubt there is any other job or profession that faces the risk of death or injury at the deliberate and often intentional hands of another person.  The 'routine' encounter has a deadly history.

Private security?  Where they exist they are doing the easy, but visible, 'find committing' stuff.  They have no authority to do anything else.  Any arrest they make still ties up the police.  They serve whoever contracts them, they are subject to very limited public oversight and are eligible for full unionization, including the ability to strike.  No thanks, not with my tax dollars.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> I won’t be surprised if we pick up some laterals once our pay comes up.



Some NYPD "bad apples" are lateral transferred to FDNY. Does not happen in Canada, to the best of my knowledge. 

eg: The Amadou Diallo incident in the Bronx. 



> Edward McMellon and Richard Murphy have been active duty firefighters for more than a decade, with Mr. McMellon currently in Brooklyn and Mr. Murphy in the Bronx.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/nyregion/amadou-diallos-mother-asks-why-officer-who-shot-at-her-son-will-get-gun-back.html





			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> Civilian law enforcement and military life are completely different worlds.



Same goes for the emergency services.



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> They serve whoever contracts them, they are subject to very limited public oversight and are eligible for full unionization, including the ability to strike.  No thanks, not with my tax dollars.



 :goodpost:


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some NYPD "bad apples" are lateral transferred to FDNY. Does not happen in Canada, to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> eg: The Amadou Diallo incident in the Bronx.
> 
> :goodpost:
> 
> Same goes for the emergency services.



No. You eat anything criminal, or any serious disciplinary, another police service won’t touch you. I’m talking about members who are clean. There are a couple good people I might reach out to once we get our contract and see if they want to consider different options. I know some people there with really impressive backgrounds and skill sets who get stuck doing nothing but working first response on the road for the first 6-8 years and barely get to touch investigations in a meaningful way. The municipal model works the way it does because it has to, but some good minds are squandered potentially for years. If I was at OPS ith less than ten years in right now I’d seriously look at finding another option.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> You eat anything criminal, or any serious disciplinary, another police service won’t touch you.



They transferred to the City Fire Dept. 

Same employer, different department.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> They transferred to the City Fire Dept.
> 
> Same employer, different department.



I know. I was pulling it back to the subject at hand.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> I know some people there with really impressive backgrounds and skill sets who get stuck doing nothing but working first response on the road for the first 6-8 years and barely get to touch investigations in a meaningful way. The municipal model works the way it does because it has to, but some good minds are squandered potentially for years.



I think anyone working first-response on the street in a big city dept. may get a little "burned out" as the  years   decades roll by.  

As you say, "The municipal model works the way it does because it has to"

But, I think doing good work on 9-1-1 Operations, including police, is the most fun you will ever have in your life.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> I think anyone working first-response on the street in a big city dept. may get a little "burned out" as the  years   decades roll by.
> 
> As you say, "The municipal model works the way it does because it has to"
> 
> But, I think doing good work on 9-1-1 Operations, including police, is the most fun you will ever have in your life.



Oh, for sure. I’ve gotten to work on some really cool stuff since I moved to full time investigations, but there’s a lot I miss about the road. Working with a solid watch on a night shift gone sideways is simply something that isn’t really relatable to anyone who hasn’t been there and lived that. I’ve had great times on some long and crappy shifts.

I was speaking more to my appreciation for the type of policing I got to do, here even being on the road you still took and kept files the whole way through. It was a lot more stimulating and developmental, and it also pulls you out of the ‘on scene’ craziness periodically to Maggie your brain in the investigative side.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:
			
		

> Same goes for the emergency services.



Yes I suppose you are right.  Folks are drawn to the different professions for different reasons.  I don't think I ever knew or heard of a professional firefighter patching over to police service, and vaguely recall a member who came over from EMS.  It might happen more within municipalities where the employer, pensions, etc. are the same.  Movement between employers within the same profession is much more common.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Yes I suppose you are right.  Folks are drawn to the different professions for different reasons.



Maybe some want to make a contribution to society. Satisfaction in helping people. Of being a vital, important member of the community. I don't remember if any of those things were important to me half a century ago. I'm sure I mentioned it in the Interview.

But, I was interested in a job with a future, that was exciting, and far from routine. A career with opportunities, as well as guaranteed security. 

It was actually a TV show that debuted during my senior year of high school that got me interested. It was called "EMERGENCY!".


----------



## Kilted

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Private security?  Where they exist they are doing the easy, but visible, 'find committing' stuff.  They have no authority to do anything else.  Any arrest they make still ties up the police.  They serve whoever contracts them, they are subject to very limited public oversight and are eligible for full unionization, including the ability to strike.  No thanks, not with my tax dollars.



They have authority over the property of whoever the client is. If private security were used for policing I would guess that they would be a new catorgization with different training and new legislation put into force. I'm have worked security before, and unfortunately a lot of the time security isn't used very well, or not employed in numbers to actually be effective (security is a job that you should never be doing by yourself, but people are cheap) and unfortunately there are a lot of dumb people who are hired for that job that shouldn't be, leading the industry to get a really bad name. Some of the comments I would randomly get from people were pretty bad, not even people I was telling not to do something, just random people walking by. I even had a homeless women turn her nose up at me cause apparently I was beneath her. I think the world would be a better place if everyone had to work a year or two in security, everyone would have a lot more patience for each other.


----------



## Alberta Bound

Wow, for a discussion on patches, you all sure did cover a wide “patch” of ground. Lots of good discussion and many good points. 

So. I just wanted to add in a few things. But before I get started I wanted to thank Brihard for all the great work. There are some terrific explanations on here. As usual, it’s a pleasure to read your stuff.

First, All good cops hate bad cops. Period, full stop. I am not talking about cops who make stupid mistakes or are just not good at the job. Those we have opinions on. Mainly thanks for trying, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. All businesses and agencies have those people. What I mean is those cops, convicted or not, who commit criminality. In 32 years with the Mounted Police 25+ Regular and 6 Aux I investigated / arrested a number of Mounties for criminal acts. Like all groups we have bad apples. Like all good groups we would like them to have an opportunity to experience the court process from the other side. We try very hard to do full impartial investigations and give them that chance.

But here is the thing. We are bound to give them the same Rights as all other Canadians. The same due process. So when you complain about some bad cop getting off in the Courts or getting a penalty other than getting fired under the Code of Conduct. Don’t blame the front line members. The cop you see on the street. The system isn’t perfect and not all bad cops get fired or get jail. As much as we can wish.

Some want cops fired instantly for any (perceived) transgression. Skip the investigation and throw away due process. Never going to happen and neither should it. One, it isn’t fair. Two, if we don’t have faith in the system how would you expect us to uphold it. I heard accountability mentioned. 100% for it. No question about it. Good cops, the vast majority of cops. Are for it. I heard someone say that they don’t care if a cop gets ruined by an investigation. Why not? I care about every person I detained in an investigation who ultimately had no involvement. I feel sad about every investigation that didn’t get the time or effort to give the victim the closure they deserved. I am mad for every person who was accused of something that I was forced to arrest and put in the system till we could get the evidence to know the truth. Why don’t you care?! Cops are just those members of the public doing this full time. But we can only do this honourably and professionally with your support.

In the last 16 years I spent 4 as a Unit 2 I/c, 8 as a Unit Commander in 5 different detachments. You want stress. Be the #1 or #2 in a small (5-10 member) detachment and charge one of your guys Code or Criminally, knowing that he will be your backup next Friday night. You want pride, be there on Friday when your deciding how long you can keep talking to the drunk guy with the 30/30 who has his wife and kids in the house, with ERT 12 hrs away and that same member has your back 100% throughout the event.

I also spent 2 yrs in a position “assisting” members with their grievances, Codes, Performance issues and when they got arrested. I saw great members put through the ringer wrongly and others not held accountable. One of the first things I learned was about Administrative Case Law. That’s the “average” someone gets for a similar offence. I saw people in the Code of Conduct (that I was assisting!) that I thought should be fired. Who Conduct Section or Adjudications in Ottawa told me would get between A and B because that was the “standard”. Do you know where that “standard” came from? Previous rulings within the RCMP, other Police Services, even other professions. Doctors, Lawyers, Etc. I saw a couple members the RCMP actually discharged. Who I thought should have left. Who got lawyers and convinced a Federal Court to order the RCMP to rehire them. As the punishment was too severe.................

So a few facts:
Training Standards. Tell me what you want, because I am never opposed to training. But to increase training you need to hire more cops. Because in general for RCMP members, after you take off 11 Stats, 4 weeks leave (average) this leaves you 46 weeks in a year. In contract policing, we then generally need every member for 42 to 44 weeks in a year operationally tasked. During those days there is not often time to do any real training. Just the sea of online courses that continuously are being made mandatory. That leaves 2 to 4 weeks for training in a year. That’s it, that’s all. 

Accountability:What would you like?
- We have Performance standards. Start of year goals, learning plans, ongoing performance management, mid year reviews and year end assessments. But the people who manage those are also your operational supervisors every day. Every time someone adds another form or some other administrative task, it takes away from operational supervision.
- You make a big mistake on a file (bigger than unit performance management) expect an outside NCO or Officer to be assigned to do an Incident Review. The results of that go to at least the Division 2 I/c if not the CO and can go to the Commissioner. That can commence career altering consequences.
- if there is any indication of a breach of the Code of Conduct, expect to be Investigated. Expect it will be months before you get the result. Also since it is not criminal, you have no right to counsel. Plus you have a “Duty to Report”. In other words tell us everything but the very narrow point of the incriminating evidence. We even have Community Observers on many of these investigations. Many Indigenous related files.
- Of course there is the ever present Statutory investigation. Any perceived misuse of force can give you the opportunity to speak to a lawyer and wait 12 ish months to know the outcome.
- We also have Civil Court. Lawyers suing to get compensation from the Govt for all manner of imagined transgressions. The best part is where DOJ tells you that if in their opinion they feel you “Acted outside the Scope of your Duty” that they will recommend that the Govt not indemnify you in the proceedings. Of course since you are getting the nice DOJ lawyer for free. The Govt won’t reimburse you for your own lawyer. The guy suing for injuries after taking off from the police and crashing the stolen car and being injured. All because the bad police officer tried to pull him over.
- Lastly there is my favourite. The Public Complaint Process. I won’t give you my opinion of the present Chair of the CRCC nor her “qualifications”. Let me be blunt. If the CRCC wants to take over ALL parts of these, including hiring their own investigators. Have at it. In my experience with More than a couple of hundred of these. Less than 5% have any substance. Some of my favourites:
- officer didn’t give the person a ride home from jail,
- officer gave them a ticket,
- officer wasn’t wearing their hat,
- officer was blocking the road (for a parade),
- more than 2 officers had lunch together,
- officer took more than 15 min for a coffee break
- officer used the siren to respond to an emergency and woke them up,
- officer did X, Y or Z to them in cells (disproved by the 24 video system In cells constantly running)
- officer didn’t charge X politician for (insert perceived transgression),
- officer assisted Child and Family Services in seizing their child,
Etc.
To be perfectly fair. There are some valid complaints. Which result in Codes or Stat charges against members.
There are also people who call in complaints WEEKLY of the type listed above. 
My own theory on why Often we may be behind in completing these is that since there are not designated positions who do all these (instead it is those same front line supervisors, but usually from a separate detachment) That the volume simply is too much to do as an extra on top of your regular position.
- We aren’t even talking about Fatality Inquiries and other Extra judicial forums.
This isn’t a Pity party. Just some insight into the regular Oversite. What more would you like? 

You don’t want cops to go to Child Welfare calls, mental health calls, wellness checks. Well neither do we. But do you know who most often calls us to those calls; CFS workers, Mental Health workers (including DRs) and the family and friends of the person. Do you know what a wellness check is? It is most often to see if the person has harmed themselves. Usually the friends and family won’t themselves go as they have been assaulted in the past. You wish we had more deescalation training. Sure. But I have talked to the guy with the rifle for hrs, more than once. I have pleaded with the responsible community member who was off their meds (including my next door neighbour in one community) and got them to the hospital many times. I have also been jumped by the hiding person who tried to disarm me and kill me with my own gun. Talking only goes so far. And it always sounds easier in a classroom, in a big Center, told by a “professional” than what actually happens 100 Kms from backup at 0300. 

Now, forget about the Toronto Cop making $150,000 in OT alone due to extra duties and traffic court. Let’s talk regular cops. Do I think as a S/Sgt that I make a pretty good living. $114,000 per yer base. Yep not bad. Now of course my wife always compares how I left a good job at a good company where I was making over $50,000 year in 1994 to join the RCMP for $28,000 going up to $45,000 after 3 years. Hmmmmmm, doesn’t sound as good now. 
Okay let’s use Education as a criteria. Someone on here thinks Grade 12 vs a BA, vs an MA is the basis for what people should get paid. But in general is that true? Is that the “standard”. Well not really. In some industries / businesses education is needed. But it doesn’t always translate into a bigger salary. The “market” is what dictates salaries. Should all nurses with a Degree get paid more than a paramedic? What about tradesman? What about a teacher versus a cop. I can tell you what my wife thinks with her B Ed.  I can tell you in my service I was offered a number of jobs in the oil patch for significantly more than I do the RCMP. An ex coworker is making $30,000 a month as a consultant. Now, 
Would I like a raise, sure. Do I complain that I don’t make enough, no. Do I think in the RCMP that we deserve more than Muni Cops, yes. At least the same in base salary and better coverage for housing losses moving around and some extra for all the times we lost my wife’s salary, benefits and pension due to all the moves. Now I don’t think you can compare the RCMP to the CAF not even to MPs. It’s just not the same. You pay a cop a decent salary in the hope that they do the right thing. That they look after you and yours with as much care and compassion as they would their own and free from corruption. On nice days as well as in miserable weather in the middle of the night 200 kms from nowhere. Not just in downtown Toronto, Montreal, Surrey, but also in Goose Bay, Peace River and in Cross Lake and Chateh. So that they don’t lose that feeling of serving their communities. But ultimately, I decided to join. No different than every other Mountie and no different than every member of the CF. I Signed on the dotted line and took the Queens shilling. Whatever she decided that may be.

I will leave you with this. The Order of Police Merit almost never goes to operational cops. Management only folks, dogs and harness bulls keep off the grass. We almost never get a MSC or MSM no matter what, and again it isn’t awarded to the front line. The odd bravery decoration here and there and a smattering of Commissioner's Commendations but nothing compared to the work the members are actually doing. When I was near the end of my tour in Afghanistan the CAF told me the regs at that time allowed the CDS to award the police mentors in mission the GCS as we were armed, operationally deployed and imbedded right in CAF units. But alas they said the CAF members were unhappy about civilians getting the SWASM previously. So it was a GSM and I couldn’t even receive it with my platoon. It was presented in a quiet corner out of the way at KAF so as not disturb anyone at TF-K. No I am not shedding a tear for I am proud of my GSM and more of the time I served and those which I did it with. I more wished that the RCMP would have a 5th Battle Honour proudly displayed on our Guidon, “Afghanistan”. 

I say this to show that the front line of the RCMP in the way of recognition is truly the red jacketed step child. So while a thin blue line on a small blue Canada flag may seem silly to you and an affront to those in Ottawa. It is for us who every day go out with the best of intentions. A display to those who will have our back, that we shall have theirs. 

Thank you for your time.

GDH


----------



## Kat Stevens

So we want to hand responsibility for our and our children's safety off to the lowest bidder, for a contract period of 3-5 years before the bidding process starts again? Tempting as that sounds I'll pass, thanks.


----------



## Good2Golf

Alberta Bound, thanks very much for a very informative post! 

Regards
G2G


----------



## mariomike

Sorry for snipping the excellent post in Reply #228. 



> Do I think in the RCMP that we deserve more than Muni Cops, yes.



Feds vs "Munis" ? Sounds like a  :worms:  



> So that they don’t lose that feeling of serving their communities.



I _would_  like to comment on that.

The many transfers during an RCMP career have been described on here many times. 

I have read discussions whether "munis" have more "local knowledge", and more invested in community relations, than RCMP members subject to being transferred in and out.

Worst Toronto muni could do is they transfer you to Scarborough.  



> Should all nurses with a Degree get paid more than a paramedic?



I know better than to have that conversation with my wife.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I don't think I ever knew or heard of a professional firefighter patching over to police service, and vaguely recall a member who came over from EMS.  It might happen more within municipalities where the employer, pensions, etc. are the same.



Pretty bizarre situation where I worked. We had Agencies, Boards, Commissions, Departments ( ABCD's ) and Services.

The Department of Emergency Services ( Fire and Paramedic ) have been separate divisions within the same department and same employer since 1998. Toronto Police Services is completely separate.

Paramedic Communications are in "the fishbowl" in the Atrium of Toronto Emergency Services HQ. TFS Communications are on the third floor. 

I know some of our Emergency Medical Dispatchers ( EMD's ) have taken the elevator up to the third floor and become Fire dispatchers. Supposedly, it's a lot easier to work there. 

Here's where it really gets weird. From there, they go to TFS Operations as firefighters. I've heard the same thing about some of our Emergency Vehicle Technicians ( EVT's ) and our Logistics people ( Storemen - Drivers ).

Whether true or not, I can't say. But, the stories we used to hear from our support people about their improved Quality of Life improvements in TFS support operations ( like Communications, Logistics and vehicle maintenance ) were legendary. 

My information may be a little out of date. But, that's the way I understood it. Because somehow they are all under the same umbrella of TPFFA Local 3888 IAFF.

I'm not an SME. But, that was my understanding of transfers to different divisions, within the same department, of the same employer after the 1998 Meg-City aka mega-mess amalgamation. 





			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> Movement between employers within the same profession is much more common.



Seems to be.



> I have been fortunate that I have been able to orientate several of our recruit classes and it was refreshing to see such a young class this time. The class was mainly Fire College Graduates and it also had members with past fire service experience. I had the chance to speak to some and I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire. It made me feel a little bit special that I have been a part of an organization that others envy and want to be a part of as well.
> http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/images/firewatch/spring2009.pdf
> page 8



The same seemed to be true within our Dept.


----------



## lenaitch

Great post Alberta Bound.  Hopefully with the coming bargaining unit your Code of Conduct process will offer better equity, like legal representation.  When I started out, formal disciplinary hearings were rare unless the event was way serious.  Typically, you paraded to the District Commander, got yelled at most effectively, a note on your file and that was it.  Occasionally, you would get transferred (they can't use transfer as a form of punishment anymore and, besides, it costs them too much).  Now, the number of active Conduct charges at any one time, as well as suspension, is disheartening.  I dislike that the system became more structured and formal, but along with that came Association and legal representation.



> I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire



Conversely, I know a number of police and fire who left Toronto for smaller communities.  TPS used to complain that they paid to train recruits only to lose them to smaller departments, sometimes right out of police college.  Likely happens a lot less now since they are very few small departments left in Ontario.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Conversely, I know a number of police and fire who left Toronto for smaller communities.  TPS used to complain that they paid to train recruits only to lose them to smaller departments, sometimes right out of police college.  Likely happens a lot less now since they are very few small departments left in Ontario.



They would lose their seniority. But, on the other hand, they might survive longer. The call volume in this town is - literally - back breaking. 

Toronto Police communications operators answer over 2,000,000 calls per year. 

One thing about Toronto emergency services. They do offer opportunities that might not be available in other municipalities. 

I understand RCMP and OPP* do offer a lot of opportunities for their members. But, smaller municipal services might not.

For example, I was able to get off the cars when I was 26, to work our emergency buses and specialized trucks. For a PRes MSE Op, it seemed logical.

That was through the "Relative Ability Process", rather than the "Senior Qualified" process. Because at that age, eight years of seniority was next to nothing.

Later, seniority got me on to a better schedule,

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri  0700 - 1900

Mon, Tues, Weds     0700 - 1900

Mon, Tues     0700 - 1900

Rinse and repeat. That was all there was to it.  

OPP*

I've got to say a word about the OPP. I remember when the father of one of my childhood friends joined the OPP. Somehow, he stayed in Toronto. He was on their Vice Squad. 

He wrote me a letter of reference, and spoke to them on the phone when they called him, when I applied at the personnel office at City Hall. Coming from a police officer, it meant a lot to me.

Personally, I think he laid the praise on a bit thick.   But, I was indeed grateful, as I had lived across the street from him all my life, and had been in his home many times. He knew I came from a good family.

He was a real role model. Not just for me, but for everyone in our neighbourhood. One of the finest men I ever knew. Reminded me a lot of my uncle, who was a policeman in Toronto.


----------



## Haggis

Following the lead of the  RCMP, the CBSA has banned the TBL emblem from the workplace in any form.


----------



## AndCurt

Alberta Bound said:


> Wow, for a discussion on patches, you all sure did cover a wide “patch” of ground. Lots of good discussion and many good points.
> 
> So. I just wanted to add in a few things. But before I get started I wanted to thank Brihard for all the great work. There are some terrific explanations on here. As usual, it’s a pleasure to read your stuff.
> 
> First, All good cops hate bad cops. Period, full stop. I am not talking about cops who make stupid mistakes or are just not good at the job. Those we have opinions on. Mainly thanks for trying, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. All businesses and agencies have those people. What I mean is those cops, convicted or not, who commit criminality. In 32 years with the Mounted Police 25+ Regular and 6 Aux I investigated / arrested a number of Mounties for criminal acts. Like all groups we have bad apples. Like all good groups we would like them to have an opportunity to experience the court process from the other side. We try very hard to do full impartial investigations and give them that chance.
> 
> But here is the thing. We are bound to give them the same Rights as all other Canadians. The same due process. So when you complain about some bad cop getting off in the Courts or getting a penalty other than getting fired under the Code of Conduct. Don’t blame the front line members. The cop you see on the street. The system isn’t perfect and not all bad cops get fired or get jail. As much as we can wish.
> 
> Some want cops fired instantly for any (perceived) transgression. Skip the investigation and throw away due process. Never going to happen and neither should it. One, it isn’t fair. Two, if we don’t have faith in the system how would you expect us to uphold it. I heard accountability mentioned. 100% for it. No question about it. Good cops, the vast majority of cops. Are for it. I heard someone say that they don’t care if a cop gets ruined by an investigation. Why not? I care about every person I detained in an investigation who ultimately had no involvement. I feel sad about every investigation that didn’t get the time or effort to give the victim the closure they deserved. I am mad for every person who was accused of something that I was forced to arrest and put in the system till we could get the evidence to know the truth. Why don’t you care?! Cops are just those members of the public doing this full time. But we can only do this honourably and professionally with your support.
> 
> In the last 16 years I spent 4 as a Unit 2 I/c, 8 as a Unit Commander in 5 different detachments. You want stress. Be the #1 or #2 in a small (5-10 member) detachment and charge one of your guys Code or Criminally, knowing that he will be your backup next Friday night. You want pride, be there on Friday when your deciding how long you can keep talking to the drunk guy with the 30/30 who has his wife and kids in the house, with ERT 12 hrs away and that same member has your back 100% throughout the event.
> 
> I also spent 2 yrs in a position “assisting” members with their grievances, Codes, Performance issues and when they got arrested. I saw great members put through the ringer wrongly and others not held accountable. One of the first things I learned was about Administrative Case Law. That’s the “average” someone gets for a similar offence. I saw people in the Code of Conduct (that I was assisting!) that I thought should be fired. Who Conduct Section or Adjudications in Ottawa told me would get between A and B because that was the “standard”. Do you know where that “standard” came from? Previous rulings within the RCMP, other Police Services, even other professions. Doctors, Lawyers, Etc. I saw a couple members the RCMP actually discharged. Who I thought should have left. Who got lawyers and convinced a Federal Court to order the RCMP to rehire them. As the punishment was too severe.................
> 
> So a few facts:
> Training Standards. Tell me what you want, because I am never opposed to training. But to increase training you need to hire more cops. Because in general for RCMP members, after you take off 11 Stats, 4 weeks leave (average) this leaves you 46 weeks in a year. In contract policing, we then generally need every member for 42 to 44 weeks in a year operationally tasked. During those days there is not often time to do any real training. Just the sea of online courses that continuously are being made mandatory. That leaves 2 to 4 weeks for training in a year. That’s it, that’s all.
> 
> Accountability:What would you like?
> 
> We have Performance standards. Start of year goals, learning plans, ongoing performance management, mid year reviews and year end assessments. But the people who manage those are also your operational supervisors every day. Every time someone adds another form or some other administrative task, it takes away from operational supervision.
> You make a big mistake on a file (bigger than unit performance management) expect an outside NCO or Officer to be assigned to do an Incident Review. The results of that go to at least the Division 2 I/c if not the CO and can go to the Commissioner. That can commence career altering consequences.
> if there is any indication of a breach of the Code of Conduct, expect to be Investigated. Expect it will be months before you get the result. Also since it is not criminal, you have no right to counsel. Plus you have a “Duty to Report”. In other words tell us everything but the very narrow point of the incriminating evidence. We even have Community Observers on many of these investigations. Many Indigenous related files.
> Of course there is the ever present Statutory investigation. Any perceived misuse of force can give you the opportunity to speak to a lawyer and wait 12 ish months to know the outcome.
> We also have Civil Court. Lawyers suing to get compensation from the Govt for all manner of imagined transgressions. The best part is where DOJ tells you that if in their opinion they feel you “Acted outside the Scope of your Duty” that they will recommend that the Govt not indemnify you in the proceedings. Of course since you are getting the nice DOJ lawyer for free. The Govt won’t reimburse you for your own lawyer. The guy suing for injuries after taking off from the police and crashing the stolen car and being injured. All because the bad police officer tried to pull him over.
> Lastly there is my favourite. The Public Complaint Process. I won’t give you my opinion of the present Chair of the CRCC nor her “qualifications”. Let me be blunt. If the CRCC wants to take over ALL parts of these, including hiring their own investigators. Have at it. In my experience with More than a couple of hundred of these. Less than 5% have any substance. Some of my favourites:
> officer didn’t give the person a ride home from jail,
> officer gave them a ticket,
> officer wasn’t wearing their hat,
> officer was blocking the road (for a parade),
> more than 2 officers had lunch together,
> officer took more than 15 min for a coffee break
> officer used the siren to respond to an emergency and woke them up,
> officer did X, Y or Z to them in cells (disproved by the 24 video system In cells constantly running)
> officer didn’t charge X politician for (insert perceived transgression),
> officer assisted Child and Family Services in seizing their child,
> Etc.
> To be perfectly fair. There are some valid complaints. Which result in Codes or Stat charges against members.
> There are also people who call in complaints WEEKLY of the type listed above.
> My own theory on why Often we may be behind in completing these is that since there are not designated positions who do all these (instead it is those same front line supervisors, but usually from a separate detachment) That the volume simply is too much to do as an extra on top of your regular position.
> - We aren’t even talking about Fatality Inquiries and other Extra judicial forums.
> This isn’t a Pity party. Just some insight into the regular Oversite. What more would you like?
> 
> You don’t want cops to go to Child Welfare calls, mental health calls, wellness checks. Well neither do we. But do you know who most often calls us to those calls; CFS workers, Mental Health workers (including DRs) and the family and friends of the person. Do you know what a wellness check is? It is most often to see if the person has harmed themselves. Usually the friends and family won’t themselves go as they have been assaulted in the past. You wish we had more deescalation training. Sure. But I have talked to the guy with the rifle for hrs, more than once. I have pleaded with the responsible community member who was off their meds (including my next door neighbour in one community) and got them to the hospital many times. I have also been jumped by the hiding person who tried to disarm me and kill me with my own gun. Talking only goes so far. And it always sounds easier in a classroom, in a big Center, told by a “professional” than what actually happens 100 Kms from backup at 0300.
> 
> Now, forget about the Toronto Cop making $150,000 in OT alone due to extra duties and traffic court. Let’s talk regular cops. Do I think as a S/Sgt that I make a pretty good living. $114,000 per yer base. Yep not bad. Now of course my wife always compares how I left a good job at a good company where I was making over $50,000 year in 1994 to join the RCMP for $28,000 going up to $45,000 after 3 years. Hmmmmmm, doesn’t sound as good now.
> Okay let’s use Education as a criteria. Someone on here thinks Grade 12 vs a BA, vs an MA is the basis for what people should get paid. But in general is that true? Is that the “standard”. Well not really. In some industries / businesses education is needed. But it doesn’t always translate into a bigger salary. The “market” is what dictates salaries. Should all nurses with a Degree get paid more than a paramedic? What about tradesman? What about a teacher versus a cop. I can tell you what my wife thinks with her B Ed.  I can tell you in my service I was offered a number of jobs in the oil patch for significantly more than I do the RCMP. An ex coworker is making $30,000 a month as a consultant. Now,
> Would I like a raise, sure. Do I complain that I don’t make enough, no. Do I think in the RCMP that we deserve more than Muni Cops, yes. At least the same in base salary and better coverage for housing losses moving around and some extra for all the times we lost my wife’s salary, benefits and pension due to all the moves. Now I don’t think you can compare the RCMP to the CAF not even to MPs. It’s just not the same. You pay a cop a decent salary in the hope that they do the right thing. That they look after you and yours with as much care and compassion as they would their own and free from corruption. On nice days as well as in miserable weather in the middle of the night 200 kms from nowhere. Not just in downtown Toronto, Montreal, Surrey, but also in Goose Bay, Peace River and in Cross Lake and Chateh. So that they don’t lose that feeling of serving their communities. But ultimately, I decided to join. No different than every other Mountie and no different than every member of the CF. I Signed on the dotted line and took the Queens shilling. Whatever she decided that may be.
> 
> I will leave you with this. The Order of Police Merit almost never goes to operational cops. Management only folks, dogs and harness bulls keep off the grass. We almost never get a MSC or MSM no matter what, and again it isn’t awarded to the front line. The odd bravery decoration here and there and a smattering of Commissioner's Commendations but nothing compared to the work the members are actually doing. When I was near the end of my tour in Afghanistan the CAF told me the regs at that time allowed the CDS to award the police mentors in mission the GCS as we were armed, operationally deployed and imbedded right in CAF units. But alas they said the CAF members were unhappy about civilians getting the SWASM previously. So it was a GSM and I couldn’t even receive it with my platoon. It was presented in a quiet corner out of the way at KAF so as not disturb anyone at TF-K. No I am not shedding a tear for I am proud of my GSM and more of the time I served and those which I did it with. I more wished that the RCMP would have a 5th Battle Honour proudly displayed on our Guidon, “Afghanistan”.
> 
> I say this to show that the front line of the RCMP in the way of recognition is truly the red jacketed step child. So while a thin blue line on a small blue Canada flag may seem silly to you and an affront to those in Ottawa. It is for us who every day go out with the best of intentions. A display to those who will have our back, that we shall have theirs.
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> GDH


There are many of us outside the Frontline who recognize that GD punches above their weight in bravery and outstanding work. Some of us are trying to change that current culture of a lack of recognition. Often, there is a lack of awareness of those actions caused by immediate supervisors not taking the time to forward their names up the Chain. The other side of that coin is senior management not appreciating those actions for the worth that they truly are. Change can only start somewhere, even at the lower ranks.

And on the Thin Blue Line Patches....frontline are still wearing it. A line has to be drawn somewhere to the culture of subjective offense to everything and anything.


----------



## Haggis

AndCurt said:


> There are many of us outside the Frontline who recognize that GD punches above their weight in bravery and outstanding work. Some of us are trying to change that current culture of a lack of recognition. Often, there is a lack of awareness of those actions caused by immediate supervisors not taking the time to forward their names up the Chain. The other side of that coin is senior management not appreciating those actions for the worth that they truly are. Change can only start somewhere, even at the lower ranks.


That's a problem across government and emergency services writ large.  Often the nomination process is very onerous and I've seen many cases where the quality of the nomination narrative carried more weight than the quality of the deed itself.  There's lots of discussion on these boards about why the honours and recognition system in Canada is the way it is and there is some serious second-guessing underway about bravery decorations from  the Afghanistan war.


----------



## Alberta Bound

AndCurt said:


> There are many of us outside the Frontline who recognize that GD punches above their weight in bravery and outstanding work. Some of us are trying to change that current culture of a lack of recognition. Often, there is a lack of awareness of those actions caused by immediate supervisors not taking the time to forward their names up the Chain. The other side of that coin is senior management not appreciating those actions for the worth that they truly are. Change can only start somewhere, even at the lower ranks.
> 
> And on the Thin Blue Line Patches....frontline are still wearing it. A line has to be drawn somewhere to the culture of subjective offense to everything and anything.


I agree that some times it is hard to get nominations from the front line. But I know some of that is people just figuring why bother. I was on an H&A committee. Often we saw members actions that were more in line with a pat on the back getting pushed up because it was politically expedient for one reason or another.
While outstanding work which was nominated was shunted aside because a senior officer was opposed. 
I know of three CIVPOL ( an RCMP Cst and two Sgts RCMP and Ottawa) in Afghanistan who were nominated for truly outstanding work. None got support from the A/Commr in mission nor the BGen (Comd TFK). While on the CAF side we saw quotas for awards. I even saw where EUPOL came to award medals for outstanding work outside the wire to a dozen CIVPOL. The medals were kept “secure” for the appropriate time. I know of at least 4 of those members that never received those awards. The medals simply ”disappeared”.
I think our present structure of the awards process being secret fosters the issues. Increased transparency would help shed light on decisions made and placed on the record.


----------



## AndCurt

Alberta Bound said:


> I agree that some times it is hard to get nominations from the front line. But I know some of that is people just figuring why bother. I was on an H&A committee. Often we saw members actions that were more in line with a pat on the back getting pushed up because it was politically expedient for one reason or another.
> While outstanding work which was nominated was shunted aside because a senior officer was opposed.
> I know of three CIVPOL ( an RCMP Cst and two Sgts RCMP and Ottawa) in Afghanistan who were nominated for truly outstanding work. None got support from the A/Commr in mission nor the BGen (Comd TFK). While on the CAF side we saw quotas for awards. I even saw where EUPOL came to award medals for outstanding work outside the wire to a dozen CIVPOL. The medals were kept “secure” for the appropriate time. I know of at least 4 of those members that never received those awards. The medals simply ”disappeared”.
> I think our present structure of the awards process being secret fosters the issues. Increased transparency would help shed light on decisions made and placed on the record.


You and I both agree the system needs to change. Again, change only can happen within a certain sphere of influence.


----------



## Jarnhamar

There's been a number of stories lately in the news that's not painting police in the best light. I'd be curious to see if support for the thin blue line has went up or down.


----------



## Alberta Bound

AndCurt said:


> You and I both agree the system needs to change. Again, change only can happen within a certain sphere of influence.


Completely agree.


----------



## Alberta Bound

Jarnhamar said:


> There's been a number of stories lately in the news that's not painting police in the best light. I'd be curious to see if support for the thin blue line has went up or down.


The Canadian surveys I have seen on average show lower levels of support for police since George Floyd and the Defund the Police Movement. But not substantially. Greater police support in rural areas, lower in the larger cities.

But who can blame lots of people. For those that are easily swayed, the narrative was overwhelming. it is the people in Govt who should know the demands and still howl at the moon for everything that bothers me.


----------



## mariomike

Alberta Bound said:


> Greater police support in rural areas, lower in the larger cities.


My father and I were pretty close to my uncle. He was a Metro police officer for 30 years ( to the day ). He never married, so we got to spend a lot of time with him. He said they deployed heavily into high crime areas. Naturally. Why there was higher crime? Sociological problems, education, DNA... who knows?

Quieter areas complained they were paying for protection that was going elsewhere.

He said those high crime areas were the only communities that voted regularly for police pay raises and improving benefits. And the police gave them the best service they could.

As far as TBL goes, saw TBL flags at the Washington D.C. incident, where about 140 police officers were injured.


----------



## Alberta Bound

mariomike said:


> My father and I were pretty close to my uncle. He was a Metro police officer for 30 years ( to the day ). He never married, so we got to spend a lot of time with him. He said they deployed heavily into high crime areas. Naturally. Why there was higher crime? Sociological problems, education, DNA... who knows?
> 
> Quieter areas complained they were paying for protection that was going elsewhere.
> 
> He said those high crime areas were the only communities that voted regularly for police pay raises and improving benefits. And the police gave them the best service they could.
> 
> Saw a few TBL "battle flags" at the Washington D.C. incident.


Some of the communities that had the highest CSIs and the worst underlying social issues were also where I made the best friends in the local population and got the most appreciation. Its where I also got used to the community leadership, vilifying us publicly and at the same time praising us privately. To the point of being offended if after a public meeting and beheading We refused to come over for dinner.


----------



## mariomike

Alberta Bound said:


> Some of the communities that had the highest CSIs and the worst underlying social issues were also where I made the best friends in the local population and got the most appreciation. Its where I also got used to the community leadership, vilifying us publicly and at the same time praising us privately. To the point of being offended if after a public meeting and beheading We refused to come over for dinner.


Our department was sent regularly into the projects. You had to watch for incoming "air mail".   

Back in 1984 one of our guys started a Children's Breakfast Club in Falstaff TCHC. Got the idea from the Black Panthers, apparently.

Not to suggest Children's Breakfast Clubs are the answer. I don't know what is. There's all sorts of studies by the experts.


----------



## Alberta Bound

mariomike said:


> Our department was sent regularly into the projects. You had to watch for incoming "air mail".
> 
> Back in 1984 one of our guys started a Children's Breakfast Club in Falstaff TCHC. Got the idea from the Black Panthers, apparently.
> 
> Not to suggest Children's Breakfast Clubs are the answer. I don't know what is. There's all sorts of studies by the experts.


I don’t know what the answer is either. But my faith in the experts knowing the answer is also not high.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Alberta Bound said:


> But who can blame lots of people. For those that are easily swayed, the narrative was overwhelming.


Yea the abolish the police shit is stupid. We need more cops IMO.
That's not the behavior I'm talking about however.

This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.

Busy two weeks.

Andcurt is saying frontline officers who have been told not to wear the thin blue line stuff are disobeying orders and still wearing them. Makes you wonder.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
> Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
> Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
> Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
> 15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.


William "Bill" Parker was chief of the LAPD from 1950 - 65.

He said, "We'll always have cases like this because we have one big problem selecting police officers...we have to select from the human race."


----------



## Alberta Bound

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea the abolish the police shit is stupid. We need more cops IMO.
> That's not the behavior I'm talking about however.
> 
> This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
> Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
> Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
> Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
> 15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.
> 
> Busy two weeks.
> 
> Andcurt is saying frontline officers who have been told not to wear the thin blue line stuff are disobeying orders and still wearing them. Makes you wonder.


I can’t say anything except that these are all examples of what is bad in policing. Like any other occupation, we have bad people. Like other occupations, we can only strive to make up for the bad with overwhelming good.

I don’t think I would compare police officers holding onto a symbol of group solidarity (TBL) in the face of direction not too, as equating to the other horrible actions. Personally, I see those who are willing to stand up to say “no, this isnt a symbol that should be divisive. But as a symbol of courage and honour and sacrifice. Shared by all police; of all genders, sexes, races, faiths, etc. In service to all our communities.” As being in all our interests. Having police who are willing to stand up to their superiors versus blindly following orders is important. Even when those symbols have been co-opted by other groups and our leadership may decide it is politically easier to simply ban those symbols.

I don’t need the TBL on my vest, to know I have solidarity with other cops (and emergency workers And our citizens). But for some, symbols are very important in helping them remember that solidarity.


----------



## mariomike

Alberta Bound said:


> I don’t need the TBL on my vest, to know I have solidarity with other cops (and emergency workers And our citizens). But for some, symbols are very important in helping them remember that solidarity.


I think the power is in the badge, knowing you can always call on your colleagues for help.

Any sensible person supports their police. They can show that by electing politicians who support our police.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea the abolish the police shit is stupid. We need more cops IMO.
> That's not the behavior I'm talking about however.
> 
> This month it's a recap of the Ottawa police's Constable Eric Posts 32 charges, including sexual assault, plea bargained down to 5 after what appeared to be a prolonged campaign to ignore complaints against him.
> Officer from Hamilton's behavior towards a disabled Transgendered person caught on camera.
> Barrie Police losing control and smashing up a skateboarder sending him to the hospital with head trauma.
> Man in Montreal wrongly ID'd and held for 6 days.
> 15 year rcmp vet charged with child porn and 5 people dying in police custody or with police present.
> 
> Busy two weeks.
> 
> Andcurt is saying frontline officers who have been told not to wear the thin blue line stuff are disobeying orders and still wearing them. Makes you wonder.



All professions be they public or private are just reflections of the society that they are staffed from.  If there is a problem in policing, that problem is probably actually deeply rooted in the society those officers are drawn from.  Want to fix the police, fix society.  But like gun control its easier to legislate feel good initiatives rather than tackle the root causes of what ails us. 

Its no different than what is going in the CAF with Op Honour and the former CDS ect ect ect.  We have a hyper sexualized society.  Until we fix that, getting people to keep their hands to themselves is going to be an issue.  I am by no means dismissing the actions of those who commit these offences.  I just find it contradictory that society demands one thing from certain professions, then hyper proliferates another; and is then shocked when good apples turn bad.  

Having a daughter really changes how you see the world... Maybe its just me.


----------



## CBH99

As a civilian investigator with Alberta SOLGEN, we currently have a file open against a police officer who’s situation seems similar to the one mentioned above.

Multiple complaints against him made by various parties - all very much ignored, or somehow justified.  

Criminal harassment against multiple individuals - dismissed as they have had a hard time pulling their phone records.  Most of them being younger females, who have all consistently complained about 15 to 20 phone calls EVERY DAY for weeks on end.  (Heaven forbid the police assist with accessing their phone records.)

Lied about fabricating witness statements, despite the fact that EVERY SINGLE WITNESS STATEMENT is in his writing.  Some of the witnesses he allegedly took these statements from have confirmed they weren’t even contacted by the officer.  (He literally just wrote out their statement for them and submitted it as evidence, despite that person not being contacted at all)

Blatantly committed perjury.  Told court the suspect only answered 2 questions, and was extremely uncooperative.   (Truth is, the suspect went to the police station when requested, and spoke to the officer for almost 3hrs).

The list goes on & on.  And on.  And on.  


The problem with some policing issues isn’t necessarily society.  It’s a culture in “some” police services (typically smaller services) where accountability of more senior officers tends to be neglected.  

This officer is very charismatic, friendly, shakes hands and is very charming.  I think a lot of people just take his word for it, without actually looking at his work very closely.  

^^ While possibly some issues rooted in society, our profession demands & expects us to be better than the average citizen when it comes to integrity.   It’s leadership neglecting to hold problem members accountable that emboldens them.


----------



## Halifax Tar

CBH99 said:


> As a civilian investigator with Alberta SOLGEN, we currently have a file open against a police officer who’s situation seems similar to the one mentioned above.
> 
> Multiple complaints against him made by various parties - all very much ignored, or somehow justified.
> 
> Criminal harassment against multiple individuals - dismissed as they have had a hard time pulling their phone records.  Most of them being younger females, who have all consistently complained about 15 to 20 phone calls EVERY DAY for weeks on end.  (Heaven forbid the police assist with accessing their phone records.)
> 
> Lied about fabricating witness statements, despite the fact that EVERY SINGLE WITNESS STATEMENT is in his writing.  Some of the witnesses he allegedly took these statements from have confirmed they weren’t even contacted by the officer.  (He literally just wrote out their statement for them and submitted it as evidence, despite that person not being contacted at all)
> 
> Blatantly committed perjury.  Told court the suspect only answered 2 questions, and was extremely uncooperative.   (Truth is, the suspect went to the police station when requested, and spoke to the officer for almost 3hrs).
> 
> The list goes on & on.  And on.  And on.
> 
> 
> The problem with some policing issues isn’t necessarily society.  It’s a culture in “some” police services (typically smaller services) where accountability of more senior officers tends to be neglected.
> 
> This officer is very charismatic, friendly, shakes hands and is very charming.  I think a lot of people just take his word for it, without actually looking at his work very closely.
> 
> ^^ While possibly some issues rooted in society, our profession demands & expects us to be better than the average citizen when it comes to integrity.   It’s leadership neglecting to hold problem members accountable that emboldens them.



I can understand that. 

The problem is its unrealistic to think you are going to get better than the average citizen in any profession,  you will have your top 1/3 and middle 1/3, but you will also have your bottom 1/3.  Regardless of what the outside image and desired public perception is. 

If society has systemic issues than a percentage of recruits we hire will bring them with them.  You cannot change Policing or CAF culture until you have societal cultural shift.  Again this doesn't mean we don't take action on offences and prosecute the guilty.  All I am saying is this isn't going to stop, or even slow down until we change as a society.  And brother, I have no idea how to do that.


----------



## RedFive

Halifax Tar said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> The problem is its unrealistic to think you are going to get better than the average citizen in any profession,  you will have your top 1/3 and middle 1/3, but you will also have your bottom 1/3.  Regardless of what the outside image and desired public perception is.
> 
> If society has systemic issues than a percentage of recruits we hire will bring them with them.  You cannot change Policing or CAF culture until you have societal cultural shift.  Again this doesn't mean we don't take action on offences and prosecute the guilty.  All I am saying is this isn't going to stop, or even slow down until we change as a society.  And brother, I have no idea how to do that.



I'll chip in with your analogy of the thirds.

The RCMP, specifically, fails to hire the best possible recruits because its pay is so low, its benefits are now, at best, on par with other big name Municipal forces, and there is literally no incentive to take the job with the RCMP and all the things that come with it. (postings, small town policing, lack of Force owned housing, etc)

These are things that are actively being worked on by the NPF and RCMP, but will take years to correct.

Look no further than the constant changes to the RCMP recruiting process, which no longer requires citizenship, makes allowances for criminal records, and, most shockingly to me, did away with an in person interview. Even McDonald's interviews potential employees.


----------



## Halifax Tar

RedFive said:


> I'll chip in with your analogy of the thirds.
> 
> The RCMP, specifically, fails to hire the best possible recruits because its pay is so low, its benefits are now, at best, on par with other big name Municipal forces, and there is literally no incentive to take the job with the RCMP and all the things that come with it. (postings, small town policing, lack of Force owned housing, etc)
> 
> These are things that are actively being worked on by the NPF and RCMP, but will take years to correct.
> 
> Look no further than the constant changes to the RCMP recruiting process, which no longer requires citizenship, makes allowances for criminal records, and, most shockingly to me, did away with an in person interview. Even McDonald's interviews potential employees.



I would agree, we (Police and CAF) should do better to recruit the best candidates.  Unfortunately just like the promotion process in the CAF we don't always get the best; as the "best" is now determined by more than job ability, knowledge and leadership.  <cough French language training cough>


----------



## brihard

Halifax Tar said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> The problem is its unrealistic to think you are going to get better than the average citizen in any profession,  you will have your top 1/3 and middle 1/3, but you will also have your bottom 1/3.  Regardless of what the outside image and desired public perception is.
> 
> If society has systemic issues than a percentage of recruits we hire will bring them with them.  You cannot change Policing or CAF culture until you have societal cultural shift.  Again this doesn't mean we don't take action on offences and prosecute the guilty.  All I am saying is this isn't going to stop, or even slow down until we change as a society.  And brother, I have no idea how to do that.


Yes and no.

I absolutely think we can do ‘better than average’ in terms of the conduct and values of who we bring in. Part of that would come from a solid recruiting and vetting process that identifies and weeds out people with overt problems. Largely this is achieved already, though not fully. The bigger challenge will be the covert dirtbags- those with an unrecorded history of domestic violence; the rare few who get busted years later for child porn, etc.

A lot of the biggest issues seem to come from those who develop problematic behaviour along the way. The ones who _become_ abusive in their power, who _become_ abusive to a romantic partner, who develop addictions that they fund through corrupt processes. I believe a lot of this ties to the mental health baggage that cops pick up and carry along the way (not unlike some of CAF’s discipline cases).

Now I’m not saying that mental health problems excuse bad conduct. Far from it. Those here who actually know me, know be to be a big advocate of mental health awareness, and also know me to value accountability for behaviour. If a police officer starts sliding mentally and starts making poor choices, they own their choices- but their police employer still owns the problem. I think there’s a lot more room for some serious early intervention and ‘tough love’ when it becomes apparent that conduct is beginning to show concerning behaviours. Get those muckled on to before they become a pattern. I think investment into mental health care for police officers, coupled with the expectation that it be utilized, would have a considerable return in terms of saved costs, and public perception.


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> Even McDonald's interviews potential employees.


Even the city I worked for, interviewed potential employees. And it wasn't one-on-one.

It was an Oral Board ( a panel of five interviewers ).

A stressful and toxic experience. The interviewers were cold and unpleasant.

It was a technique to test how the applicant handled stress by taking them out of their comfort zone.

Of course that was long before websites such as this that tell applicants what to expect , and how to handle themselves, during the Interview. Even how to dress.

It was just them playing a little game with you.

I was already used to getting yelled at in the PRes anyway.  

Another thing was different in the emergency services was that, prior to the early 1980's, new members tended to be under the age of 25.

I read that, now, "Joining the RCMP as a second career isn't unusual — the average age of a cadet at Depot, the RCMP's national training centre, is 28."

( By comparison, In New York City, recruits must be under the age of 29. )

Seems to be more about "Life Experience" now.

Back then, the belief seemed to be that it should not be the second career of an individual. That young men ( as it was at the time ) were more "moldable" than older individuals to the departmental subculture. And that young individuals were less likely to have developed bad habits.

This was in line with the CAF SSEP program. Where your BMQ ( GMT back then ) was all 16-year olds such as yourself. You went on to take your trade training with that same age group.

Lots of jobs were like that back them. Especially if you had a family "legacy".

Not to suggest back then was better, or worse, than now. Just different.


----------



## CBH99

Halifax Tar said:


> I would agree, we (Police and CAF) should do better to recruit the best candidates.  Unfortunately just like the promotion process in the CAF we don't always get the best; as the "best" is now determined by more than job ability, knowledge and leadership.  <cough French language training cough>


When I was working in recruiting in the CAF way back yonder, Afghanistan was in full swing.  We basically had a directive of “hire everybody, regardless of anything other than career criminal.”

So we tried to weed out the better applicants from the average, but unless someone was a Class A f**kup on a colossal scale (career criminal type) - we offered employment.  (The recruiting process was faster, too.)

Oddly enough, I found some of the applicants that became the best members were the ones that didn’t read well on paper, and who were looking at the CAF as a clean slate.  They treated it as such.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> When I was working in recruiting in the CAF way back yonder, Afghanistan was in full swing.  We basically had a directive of “hire everybody, regardless of anything other than career criminal.”
> 
> So we tried to weed out the better applicants from the average, but unless someone was a Class A f**kup on a colossal scale (career criminal type) - we offered employment.  (The recruiting process was faster, too.)
> 
> Oddly enough, I found some of the applicants that became the best members were the ones that didn’t read well on paper, and who were looking at the CAF as a clean slate.  They treated it as such.



Some of the best troops were offered a choice: 'jail or the Army'.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

daftandbarmy said:


> Some of the best troops were offered a choice: 'jail or the Army'.


Or get off of probation earlier....🤫


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I worked with some excellent NCO's that had been given the army option by the judge. I also know a few RCMP that started out as troubled kids and decided to clean up their act and become police officers, because of the way they were treated by firm but fair officer.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Should someone charged with sexual assault, breach of trust, assault with a weapon, assault, criminal harassment, pointing a firearm and forcible confinement by 7 different victims be given an option to join the military instead of jail time?


----------



## Haggis

Jarnhamar said:


> Should someone charged with sexual assault, breach of trust, assault with a weapon, assault, criminal harassment, pointing a firearm and forcible confinement by 7 different victims be given an option to join the military instead of jail time?


Charged is not convicted.  They should be afforded the same opportunity as any other applicant, until the time when they are found guilty by a court.

Once convicted, and their sentence served, it is up to the recruiting system to deem them suitable.  Or not.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Even the city I worked for, interviewed potential employees. And it wasn't one-on-one.
> 
> It was an Oral Board ( a panel of five interviewers ).
> 
> A stressful and toxic experience. The interviewers were cold and unpleasant.
> 
> It was a technique to test how the applicant handled stress by taking them out of their comfort zone.
> 
> Of course that was long before websites such as this that tell applicants what to expect , and how to handle themselves, during the Interview. Even how to dress.
> 
> It was just them playing a little game with you.
> 
> I was already used to getting yelled at in the PRes anyway.
> 
> Another thing was different in the emergency services was that, prior to the early 1980's, new members tended to be under the age of 25.
> 
> I read that, now, "Joining the RCMP as a second career isn't unusual — the average age of a cadet at Depot, the RCMP's national training centre, is 28."
> 
> ( By comparison, In New York City, recruits must be under the age of 29. )
> 
> Seems to be more about "Life Experience" now.
> 
> Back then, the belief seemed to be that it should not be the second career of an individual. That young men ( as it was at the time ) were more "moldable" than older individuals to the departmental subculture. And that young individuals were less likely to have developed bad habits.
> 
> This was in line with the CAF SSEP program. Where your BMQ ( GMT back then ) was all 16-year olds such as yourself. You went on to take your trade training with that same age group.
> 
> Lots of jobs were like that back them. Especially if you had a family "legacy".
> 
> Not to suggest back then was better, or worse, than now. Just different.



I don't know how true it was but I was once told that, back in the day, the RCMP felt the ideal recruit was a farm boy who didn't even have a driver's licence so they could teach him to do everything, their way.  When I joined my service in the '70s, it was not unusual for members to have a few working years under their belt; perhaps not a career, but a job - carpenter, truck driver, etc.  Even today, I would take 'life experience' over somebody who went from high school to post secondary any day, but I was never in recruiting, just lived with the ones they sent.



Haggis said:


> Charged is not convicted.  They should be afforded the same opportunity as any other applicant, until the time when they are found guilty by a court.
> 
> Once convicted, and their sentence served, it is up to the recruiting system to deem them suitable.  Or not.


In CAF, does not having charges before the court put an applicant's file in the 'over here' pile until it is dealt with?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Haggis said:


> Charged is not convicted.  They should be afforded the same opportunity as any other applicant, until the time when they are found guilty by a court.
> 
> Once convicted, and their sentence served, it is up to the recruiting system to deem them suitable.  Or not.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of the plea deal from the story I spoke to earlier as in not all sentences are a good fit to give the option of joining the CAF. I'm shocked at how the justice system seems to work.


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:


> Charged is not convicted.  They should be afforded the same opportunity as any other applicant, until the time when they are found guilty by a court.
> 
> Once convicted, and their sentence served, it is up to the recruiting system to deem them suitable.  Or not.


No, not necessarily. Criminal convictions are held to a very high standard, and often end up detached from the objective facts. Those discerned facts, gained through investigation, can and should absolutely be enough to inform a public organization as to whether an applicant should be given the necessary security clearance for policing. In the RCMP at least, any officer could quite easily end up incidentally privy to information at the levels of Protected C or Secret, if not higher. Decisions for reliability status / security clearance can and should be made with more fulsome consideration of recorded behaviour beyond just what someone can be convicted of.


----------



## Haggis

lenaitch said:


> In CAF, does not having charges before the court put an applicant's file in the 'over here' pile until it is dealt with?


Jarnhamar wasn't specific on the outcome of the charges.  If the charges are pending, yes, the file goes into a "wait and see how this turns out" pile.  .  If the charges were withdrawn, no.  However, the applicant's security screening may unearth unsavoury behaviour which would result in a rejection, you'd hope.

EDIT: Brihard beat me to it, but in more detail.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Even today, I would take 'life experience' over somebody who went from high school to post secondary any day, but I was never in recruiting, just lived with the ones they sent.


Times have changed. Where I worked the two-year college diploma is mandatory to even apply now. Those with the four-year U of T degree go to the front of the line.

But, back then you could hire on with Metro Police ( as a Cadet ), or the Metro Emergency Services at age 18. Right after graduation from a Toronto high school. 
( There was a Residency Requirement at the time. )

The main thing was to get into the academy ASAP. That was when your pay, seniority, sick bank, pension, vacation credit, probation etc. all started. 

I was in the PRes. Perhaps that got me a few points during the Interview. 

At the time, we came under the watchful under the watchful eyes of the ’46ers – post-war era, hard-nosed old vets who were big on, and instilled, the military values, which the departments followed to a high degree back then.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Times have changed. Where I worked the two-year college diploma is mandatory to even apply now. Those with the four-year U of T degree go to the front of the line.
> 
> But, back then you could hire on with Metro Police ( as a Cadet ), or the Metro Emergency Services at age 18. Right after graduation from a Toronto high school.
> ( There was a Residency Requirement at the time. )
> 
> The main thing was to get into the academy ASAP. That was when your pay, seniority, sick bank, pension, vacation credit, probation etc. all started.
> 
> I was in the PRes. Perhaps that got me a few points during the Interview.
> 
> At the time, we came under the watchful under the watchful eyes of the ’46ers – post-war era, hard-nosed old vets who were big on, and instilled, the military values, which the departments followed to a high degree back then.



I suppose it depends on the profession.  I still think life experience has merit (and so do many recruiters) and you can get both - a two or three year program plus a couple of years 'in the world' and still apply in mid-20s.  I was channeling what some recruiters have mentioned:  kid goes from high school to a local post secondary so they can live from home and brings very little to the table except a sheepskin.

Actually, with many Ontario police services, the various 'police foundations', 'police sciences', etc. programs are losing their aura; they are finding that they are not producing the maturing, problem solving and other skill sets they are seeking.  I imagine with EMS there are a lot more technical/practical skills.  I have no idea how the various post secondary fire course are faring.


----------



## Haggis

The oldest recruit I have personally seen in my Agency's program was 61 years old. Some of the jobs/careers people have held before joining us are fascinating.


----------



## mariomike

I think a problem the police, military and other professions are facing is the "Baby Boom" generation is retiring ( if they haven't already ). 

Since subsequent generations are typically much smaller, I imagine the employers are experiencing difficulty in recruiting suitably trained replacement staff.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> I think a problem the police, military and other professions are facing is the "Baby Boom" generation is retiring ( if they haven't already ).
> 
> Since subsequent generations are typically much smaller, I imagine the employers are experiencing difficulty in recruiting suitably trained replacement staff.


Yup. And as soon as RCMP see the pretty sizeable pay hike that’s gonna be coming soon, there will be a glut of retirements as soon as ‘best five’ pensionable years are boosted. That’s gonna be an ugly staffing crunch. There are a lot of members just hanging on til the raise hits and pumps their pension.


----------



## lenaitch

Haggis said:


> The oldest recruit I have personally seen in my Agency's program was 61 years old. Some of the jobs/careers people have held before joining us are fascinating.



Apparently not there to build pension points.


----------



## Haggis

lenaitch said:


> Apparently not there to build pension points.


One recruit I remember quite well was a former locomotive engineer for 20 years. He said the job paid him a generous salary with tons of OT but the stress was through the roof.


----------



## mariomike

Haggis said:


> One recruit I remember quite well was a former locomotive engineer for 20 years. He said the job paid him a generous salary with tons of OT but the stress was through the roof.


Sorry to hear that. My father was a VIA Rail locomotive engineer from 1946 to 1991. Joined straight out of the Navy. Assigned to high speed passenger trains out of Union Station. Same as his father before him. It's a good job.


----------



## Alberta Bound

brihard said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> I absolutely think we can do ‘better than average’ in terms of the conduct and values of who we bring in. Part of that would come from a solid recruiting and vetting process that identifies and weeds out people with overt problems. Largely this is achieved already, though not fully. The bigger challenge will be the covert dirtbags- those with an unrecorded history of domestic violence; the rare few who get busted years later for child porn, etc.
> 
> A lot of the biggest issues seem to come from those who develop problematic behaviour along the way. The ones who _become_ abusive in their power, who _become_ abusive to a romantic partner, who develop addictions that they fund through corrupt processes. I believe a lot of this ties to the mental health baggage that cops pick up and carry along the way (not unlike some of CAF’s discipline cases).
> 
> Now I’m not saying that mental health problems excuse bad conduct. Far from it. Those here who actually know me, know be to be a big advocate of mental health awareness, and also know me to value accountability for behaviour. If a police officer starts sliding mentally and starts making poor choices, they own their choices- but their police employer still owns the problem. I think there’s a lot more room for some serious early intervention and ‘tough love’ when it becomes apparent that conduct is beginning to show concerning behaviours. Get those muckled on to before they become a pattern. I think investment into mental health care for police officers, coupled with the expectation that it be utilized, would have a considerable return in terms of saved costs, and public perception.


I totally agree that we need better mental health supports. Some of the down the road issues are directly tied to some of the working and living conditions that we let our members and their families suffer through. Again not an excuse, just what it is. The end product of “do more with less, again and again, in places that other people won’t go to”.

But I know we are also having serious issues on the recruiting side. It is the perfect storm. I think we are sitting at 131 of the 135 Police Services in Canada In pay, down grading of our benefits, increase in our pension costs. Add in reduced isolated post benefits, increased rents for Force Housing, etc. So financially we have no incentive. 
Now combine that with a change in people’s attitudes. Why live in a community where you can’t buy a house and get some equity, your spouse has reduced or no employment options, your kids have reduced or no community options.
The sense of adventure is not there like it used to be.

if your option is better pay/etc and better home life options and include a slow recruiting system. I think many of the best candidates are going to other services right now.


----------



## Haggis

mariomike said:


> Sorry to hear that. My father was a VIA Rail locomotive engineer from 1946 to 1991. Joined straight out of the Navy. Assigned to high speed passenger trains out of Union Station. Same as his father before him. It's a good job.


This fellow ran freight in western Canada.  He said that due to staff shortages, many engineers and conductors were rode hard and put away wet.


----------



## Weinie

Alberta Bound said:


> I totally agree that we need better mental health supports. Some of the down the road issues are directly tied to some of the working and living conditions that we let our members and their families suffer through. Again not an excuse, just what it is. The end product of “do more with less, again and again, in places that other people won’t go to”.
> 
> But I know we are also having serious issues on the recruiting side. It is the perfect storm. I think we are sitting at 131 of the 135 Police Services in Canada In pay, down grading of our benefits, increase in our pension costs. Add in reduced isolated post benefits, increased rents for Force Housing, etc. So financially we have no incentive.
> Now combine that with a change in people’s attitudes. *Why live in a community where you can’t buy a house and get some equity, your spouse has reduced or no employment options, your kids have reduced or no community options.*
> The sense of adventure is not there like it used to be.
> 
> if your option is better pay/etc and better home life options and include a slow recruiting system. I think many of the best candidates are going to other services right now.


A good friend of mine spent 10 years in the RCMP, most of it in northern communities. His wife, a RN, struggled to find work, or lurched from contract to contract. He finally had enough in the early nineties, and moved back to our local municipal force. 

He retired last year after spending 6 years as Chief, his wife was the head of nursing in her branch at our local hospital.

He doesn't regret his decision.


----------



## Eaglelord17

The issue with the police at the moment is people are becoming more aware of the bad stuff going on in the background that historically wasn't brought to light. Plenty of examples of serious police misconduct that have resulted in next to no punishment. Things such as pulling a firearm on a fellow officer because you were mad and only getting reassigned with a few days pay taken, to having a police officer almost beat a non-resisting man to death, dragging him cell to cell well a superior officer watched, then finally bringing him to the hospital where he almost died. A abuse of force that even the judge ruled it was excessive force (which is exceptionally rare for a judge to say so). Meanwhile the SIU had taken a look at the case twice and found no issue. Ultimate punishment for this scumbag of a cop (whose father was once the police chief) was loss of two days pay. 

Things that would land a average citizen in jail result in next to no punishment for a cop, that needs to change. If anything it should be the opposite. As a police officer you are entrusted with some huge responsibilities and if you can't meet them you need to be removed from the position as quickly as possible.


----------



## CBH99

I agree entirely.  People need to lead by example, and in the case of misconduct, people who blatantly behave in the very ways they would arrest someone else for, should be held to a higher standard by their CoC.  

By looking the other way, or giving them a slap on the wrist, we enable the member to do similar things in the future.  And let other members know, indirectly, what they can get away with.


Policing organizations need leadership, not management.  Anytime I hear the word 'management' in a law enforcement context, I cringe...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Texas:


----------



## Haggis

Eaglelord17 said:


> Things such as pulling a firearm on a fellow officer because you were mad and only getting reassigned with a few days pay taken,


Lay this on top of the Edmonton cop "accidentally" firing on another officer and you can understand where the public can easily observe a clear double standard.  Had I done the same thing at my club or at home, the result would've been a charge under CCC s.87(1) and the lifetime loss of my firearms and ownership privileges.  Given my agency's approach to firearms safety, I would likely end up unemployed as well.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> There are a lot of members just hanging on til the raise hits and pumps their pension.


Weren't we all.  

Just my opinion, but it seemed to me that some of the most satisfied employees I have known actually did very little work. Showed no initiative. Were not team players. Never wanted to go that extra mile.

I knew a five-star drunk like that. Preferred playing hopscotch with ladies he picked up in bars. He seemed content to me.


----------



## lenaitch

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in Texas:
> 
> View attachment 64552



Yes, it seems 'freedom vs. big government' 'live free and die' (that's the meme I was going for) takes on a new meaning (off-topic, I know, but, whatever).









						Texas mayor resigns after telling residents desperate for power and heat "only the strong will survive"
					

"No one owes you [or] your family anything; nor is it the local government's responsibility to support you during trying times like this!" said the former mayor.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Eaglelord17

So another little example of police protecting their own. Locally they charged 3 people for hosting a new years party which a bunch of people got Covid from. Publically named and shamed in the news by the police.

Meanwhile a local police officer had a new years party, they refused to name the officer and said they 'dealt with it internally' instead of laying charges for committing a civilian offence as a civilian. 

Why do they consider it acceptable to be above the law? Why do they consider it acceptable to charge civilians and not hold themselves to the same standards? They want the backlash to stop against the police, they need to earn it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Without more context that post means nothing.  Evidence, witnesses, etc....remember, he/she can be disciplined for things that you and I might not even get a friendly knock on the door for.
Got a link?


----------



## CBH99

Eaglelord17 said:


> So another little example of police protecting their own. Locally they charged 3 people for hosting a new years party which a bunch of people got Covid from. Publically named and shamed in the news by the police.
> 
> Meanwhile a local police officer had a new years party, they refused to name the officer and said they 'dealt with it internally' instead of laying charges for committing a civilian offence as a civilian.
> 
> Why do they consider it acceptable to be above the law? Why do they consider it acceptable to charge civilians and not hold themselves to the same standards? They want the backlash to stop against the police, they need to earn it.


On the surface I think most people would agree with you.  Nobody like a double standard.  

But without a link it’s hard to discuss what you are referring to.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Police employee disciplined for hosting new year gathering
					

Sault Ste. Marie Police Service remains tight-lipped on details of investigation




					www.sootoday.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

So no one got infected, no one called the authorities by the sounds of it, probably someone said they went to somebody's house and it's enough to be disciplined at your workplace.

Your first story said people got charged because it came to light after there were infections. 
Sounds like the difference between speeding and speeding into an accident.  Different repercussions and you know it......


----------



## Eaglelord17

Who knows what the story is as they refuse to even provide the details.

A police officer who is tasked with enforcing the laws cannot follow them? Personally I don't agree with the whole lockdown nonsense, but that doesn't mean I don't follow the law. When they are willing to name and charge others over the same thing, why will they not do the same for them? 

It is a double standard and you know it. The law doesn't differentiate between someone being infected and someone not, only that the event violated lockdown. Follow the laws and there is no issue, if you aren't willing to follow them what are you doing as a police officer?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

You could have stopped at "who knows?"....the rest is your prejudice.


----------



## brihard

It’s worth noting that internal police discipline, as an administrative law process, has a lower standard of proof and looser rules around evidence. A matter that could not succesfully be prosecuted as a statutory offence to a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt may still be successfully handled as an internal disciplinary matter.


----------



## Haggis

Eaglelord17 said:


> Police employee disciplined for hosting new year gathering
> 
> 
> Sault Ste. Marie Police Service remains tight-lipped on details of investigation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sootoday.com


In the interests of transparency, my local police service publishes the results of all internal disciplinary proceedings on their website for a period of six months after the decision date. OPIRD hearing results can be viewed here


----------



## CBH99

Haggis said:


> In the interests of transparency, my local police service publishes the results of all internal disciplinary proceedings on their website for a period of six months after the decision date. OPIRD hearing results can be viewed here


That’s a good idea actually.  Might not be fun if we get a slap on the wrist, but it’s transparent & the public can’t accuse them of sweeping things under the rug.  

I’ve found some services are great at holding members accountable, in reasonable ways.  Decent leadership all around.

Some are way too political, and their idea of accountability is witch-hunts.  Absurd ones at that.   I feel sorry for those officers - stabbed in the back by their own service.  

And some sweep everything under the rug and have zero accountability for their members.  (More common in small services I find.    _cough_ Lethbridge _cough_


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Here is somebody that is likely involved in a "Internal process" starting with "You effing idiot" https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/02/25/vancouver-police-photos-body-beach/


----------



## Kat Stevens

Colin Parkinson said:


> Here is somebody that is likely involved in a "Internal process" starting with "You effing idiot" https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/02/25/vancouver-police-photos-body-beach/


They certainly aren't doing themselves any favours in the days 24/7 cameras, are they?


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> Here is somebody that is likely involved in a "Internal process" starting with "You effing idiot" https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/02/25/vancouver-police-photos-body-beach/


Nothing new about "Kodak moments".


----------



## brihard

Colin Parkinson said:


> Here is somebody that is likely involved in a "Internal process" starting with "You effing idiot" https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/02/25/vancouver-police-photos-body-beach/


Bloody idiots.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Bloody idiots.


Reminded me of an old pre-camera-phone TV show where citizens complained they heard two officers crack about an injured man's watch, "Takes a licking, but keeps on ticking!" ( for those old enough to remember the old Timex commercials ) after they pulled his severed arm out of a gutter. 

Obviously wasn't the time or place for "gallows humour" and got each of them a reprimand.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Good thing nobody ever had a camera phone when this guy was around;








						CSI: Miami Horatio Quotes. FUNNY! - CSI : Miami - Comic Vine
					






					comicvine.gamespot.com


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> Here is somebody that is likely involved in a "Internal process" starting with "You effing idiot" https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/02/25/vancouver-police-photos-body-beach/


Having a mental heath crisis? Want to kill yourself? Don't worry....Winnipeg Police will share the details of your rescue on the Internet.


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-police-photos-privacy-1.5928730
		


>Winnipeg police apologized, removed photos: 'We will be more mindful of what we share via social media'​


----------



## Colin Parkinson

brihard said:


> Bloody idiots.


The sad part is people remember this sort of thing I posted earlier, but rarely this sort of stuff.








						West Vancouver police officers plunge into icy waters for a good cause (PHOTOS & VIDEO)
					

After raising $2,400 in 24 hours for Special Olympics BC West Vancouver Police Const. Kevin Goodmurphy had to "sacrifice" his immaculate hair for the Polar Plunge – taking a frigid dip with his fellow brave officers.




					www.nsnews.com


----------



## CBH99

Going way back, I remember when Calgary hosted the World Police & Fire games.  Was a great connection builder with the city, with fireworks and CF-18’s right on que at the opening.  (And low as hell, was surprised)

Polar Plunge is fantastic.  I did it 3 years ago with Alberta Sheriffs.  Never been more cold, but was a blast.   Just wish they would do a bit more PR on it beforehand, get the whole community involved ☺️👍🏻


----------



## Haggis

CBH99 said:


> Polar Plunge is fantastic.  I did it 3 years ago with Alberta Sheriffs.  Never been more cold, but was a blast.   Just wish they would do a bit more PR on it beforehand, get the whole community involved ☺️👍🏻


Polar Plunge has gone virtual this year.  It's all for a great cause. I've co-organized our local Law Enforcement Torch Ride since 2018.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Haggis said:


> Polar Plunge has gone virtual this year.  It's all for a great cause. I've co-organized our local Law Enforcement Torch Ride since 2018.


I still haven't made my video yet.   The amount raised this year in Ontario compared to our goals have been fantastic.  Goal from virtual Polar Plunge was $100,000 and with a week to go we're at $222,000.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> >Winnipeg police apologized, removed photos: 'We will be more mindful of what we share via social media'​



Vancouver police say hold my green tea chi latte.


2 Vancouver police officers caught on video posing with dead man on Third Beach​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-police-posing-dead-body-beach-1.5929424


----------



## J.J

Jarnhamar said:


> Vancouver police say hold my green tea chi latte.
> 
> 
> 2 Vancouver police officers caught on video posing with dead man on Third Beach​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-police-posing-dead-body-beach-1.5929424



Here is a website to make it easier for you to find and post articles. You can thank me later.









						Canada Cop Block
					

Canada Cop Block. 3,164 likes · 1 talking about this. Website




					www.facebook.com


----------



## brihard

J.J said:


> Here is a website to make it easier for you to find and post articles. You can thank me later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada Cop Block
> 
> 
> Canada Cop Block. 3,164 likes · 1 talking about this. Website
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com


You’re barking up the wrong tree if you think Jarnhamar is anti-police.

Pointing out actual instances of real or reasonably apprehended police misconduct that warrant an impartial investigation is always fair game. Passive-aggressively pointing him to ‘cop block’ doesn’t add anything to the discourse here.


----------



## J.J

brihard said:


> You’re barking up the wrong tree if you think Jarnhamar is anti-police.
> 
> Pointing out actual instances of real or reasonably apprehended police misconduct that warrant an impartial investigation is always fair game. Passive-aggressively pointing him to ‘cop block’ doesn’t add anything to the discourse here.



I disagree, a couple of positive posts about community policing and his response is to point out misconduct. How is that not being "passive-aggressive"? How does that fit into the discourse? He may not be anti-police, but he is quick to throw some shade on positive actions by law enforcement.


----------



## mariomike

Reminds me a bit of what our Metro officers were up against in TCHC projects, like Vanaulley Walk, in 14 Division.

The decent residents lived in fear of the criminals who lived among them. Criminals used to flash signs at the mothers letting them know it was time to bring their kids inside. The safest time to let their kids out to play was immediately after a shooting, because the heavy police presence would ensure nothing bad would happen.

I think the vast majority of TCHC residents wanted the police in their communities. But, the ones who needed protection most were too afraid to say it.

That was long ago. Maybe things have improved since.


----------



## brihard

J.J said:


> I disagree, a couple of positive posts about community policing and his response is to point out misconduct. How is that not being "passive-aggressive"? How does that fit into the discourse? He may not be anti-police, but he is quick to throw some shade on positive actions by law enforcement.


I’ve known him personally for about a dozen years. He’s on our side, just not blindly. This conversation has frequently touched on police conduct, and he replied to a post by another member, with a relevant and current example of what’s quickly shaping up to be a pretty solid instance of police making poor choices.

The profession is not immune from criticism, and police are not infallible. If, like in any pursuit, we recognize that there is a dumbest 1% of members and a dumbest 1% of decisions, there will be some significant situations that call for public accountability. It’s not ‘anti cop’ to point that out. As long as police get fair due process and their conduct is assessed reasonably and in accordance with law, that’s about as much as can be expected.


----------



## mariomike

I wonder how many cops just say, "Frig it." and transfer to the fire department?   

It's not uncommon in NYC. Not sure about Canada.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thanks Brihard. I'm very critical (just like I am of the CAF). I hope the LEOs here don't take it personally.

I think police are incredibly important and don't get nearly the credit they deserve for the good work they do. Especially RCMP and provincial officers in remote locations. As someone with a family who spends chunks of time away from home I sleep better knowing they're protected by professionals. 
For me seeing a cop car around town gives me a bit of the same feeling as seeing that Apache gunship over our heads once upon a time.


These stories emerging of unprofessional behavior are appearing more and more.  I think it's eroding confidence in the police and negatively impacting whats supposed to be (I think anyways) the positive messaging of the Thin Blue Line. And that sucks.

The negative stories (and behavior) turn the "thin blue line" separating  & protecting us citizens from the criminals to something more nefarious. And that sucks too.

For both the police _AND _the CAF I think we're beyond using "just a few bad apples" as an acceptable response. In both our cases I think we need to admit our respective systems are enabling this continued behavior.


----------



## mariomike

My uneducted guess - and that is all it is, as I've never seen one - the TBL patch might receive a more enthusiastic reception in the suburbs than in "the hood".


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Problem is that any real fixes that aren't as destructive as the issues you are trying to fix, take time , particularly when your dealing with leadership issues. In peacetime it takes years to develop a good leader and get them into a position to do good. Of course saying such thinks does not pay the media bills, so they stoke up the flames to get views.


----------



## lenaitch

Jarnhamar said:


> Thanks Brihard. I'm very critical (just like I am of the CAF). I hope the LEOs here don't take it personally.
> 
> I think police are incredibly important and don't get nearly the credit they deserve for the good work they do. Especially RCMP and provincial officers in remote locations. As someone with a family who spends chunks of time away from home I sleep better knowing they're protected by professionals.
> For me seeing a cop car around town gives me a bit of the same feeling as seeing that Apache gunship over our heads once upon a time.
> 
> 
> These stories emerging of unprofessional behavior are appearing more and more.  I think it's eroding confidence in the police and negatively impacting whats supposed to be (I think anyways) the positive messaging of the Thin Blue Line. And that sucks.
> 
> The negative stories (and behavior) turn the "thin blue line" separating  & protecting us citizens from the criminals to something more nefarious. And that sucks too.
> 
> For both the police _AND _the CAF I think we're beyond using "just a few bad apples" as an acceptable response. In both our cases I think we need to admit our respective systems are enabling this continued behavior.



No offence taken (well, former LEO anyway).  I can be fairly critical of some of the policies and procedures of my former service, not that anyone cares, but tend to refrain from passing judgment of news items of some incident or action, because I wasn't there.  Even the most justified and lawful arrest can look messy if the subject aggressively doesn't want to go - it's not TV.

Celebrating our successes is just as important as facing our failures.  For the first many years of my career, hearing that a member was under suspension for a criminal matter was extremely rare and pretty much known province-wide because of its rarity.  Now, the number facing criminal charges is truly disheartening and seems to point to common failing.  What that is I have no idea.


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## mariomike

Everything is a "Kodak moment" these days.


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## Fishbone Jones

lenaitch said:


> Now, the number facing criminal charges is truly disheartening and seems to point to common failing.  What that is I have no idea.


Is it a failing of the officers, by going to far?
Or is it a failing of risk adverse, PC preaching administrators, throwing officers under the bus to cover their asses?


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## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Is it a failing of the officers, by going to far?
> Or is it a failing of risk adverse, PC preaching administrators, throwing officers under the bus to cover their asses?


No, criminal charges for police officers are very rare. But if you’re gonna beat the shit out of your wife, or drive drunk, or engage in corruption with tow truck drivers, or threaten to kill your tenant- those are deserving of criminal charges. I think what’s happening now is police officers are less likely to get a free pass from other police as a result of greater oversight and lessened tolerance within the profession for bad cops.

For criminal charges to be laid there have to be reasonable grounds for criminal charges. Now, BS internal disciplinary charges are another matter and can be much more prone to abuse.


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## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> No, criminal charges for police officers are very rare. But if you’re gonna beat the shit out of your wife, or drive drunk, or engage in corruption with tow truck drivers, or threaten to kill your tenant- those are deserving of criminal charges. I think what’s happening now is police officers are less likely to get a free pass from other police as a result of greater oversight and lessened tolerance within the profession for bad cops.
> 
> For criminal charges to be laid there have to be reasonable grounds for criminal charges. *Now, BS internal disciplinary charges are another matter and can be much more prone to abuse.*



Good thing they have a cracker jack shop steward on the job!


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## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> Good thing they have a cracker jack shop steward on the job!


The union won’t cover members for off duty criminal conduct, just the associated internal code of conduct stuff. And actually those are easy- “here’a the inbox for legal”.


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## Alberta Bound

brihard said:


> The union won’t cover members for off duty criminal conduct, just the associated internal code of conduct stuff. And actually those are easy- “here’a the inbox for legal”.


I am 100% on board with charges in clearly criminal actions. Even applying a higher standard across all statutory offences since a cop should know better. 
But I have seen where our Management felt it would “look” better for transparency to charge a member criminally knowing the RGs were tenuous at best. Fully aware there would be no conviction In the end.
I would suggest that pay and benefits was a strong driver for the creation of the NPF for the RCMP membership. I think that a lack of leadership and personal responsibility at the top was just as much a driving factor. 
I won’t delve into the the Pandora’s box of Code decisions here.


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## brihard

Alberta Bound said:


> I am 100% on board with charges in clearly criminal actions. Even applying a higher standard across all statutory offences since a cop should know better.
> But I have seen where our Management felt it would “look” better for transparency to charge a member criminally knowing the RGs were tenuous at best. Fully aware there would be no conviction In the end.
> I would suggest that pay and benefits was a strong driver for the creation of the NPF for the RCMP membership. I think that a lack of leadership and personal responsibility at the top was just as much a driving factor.
> I won’t delve into the the Pandora’s box of Code decisions here.


Largely agreed. Interestingly, the union's fighting some internal conduct decisions through federal court now, particularly on the subject of code of conduct convictions for off duty incidents where internal conduct has been applied too broadly. There have already been a couple wins.


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## Alberta Bound

brihard said:


> Largely agreed. Interestingly, the union's fighting some internal conduct decisions through federal court now, particularly on the subject of code of conduct convictions for off duty incidents where internal conduct has been applied too broadly. There have already been a couple wins.


Yes it is good to see. 
I think the “fixes” that LRI made from the ponderous old Code were too broad and did not have appropriate and timely safeguards for the membership. Appeals of suspensions or reassignments taking months or even years often not being ruled on before the Code was done. It will take a few years of NPF wins to bring back the balance that the membership and the RCMP needs. But it’s a good start.


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## PL90

reveng said:


> Hollywood and pro sports are what we really should focus on defunding. Basically useless, and only serve as a distraction for the masses.


Couldn't agree more with this statement. They're paid millions for playing a sport or appearing on screen.. it's ridiculous.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

If people stopped watching....  as I throw the Raptors game on, followed by the Leafs at 10.


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## brihard

PL90 said:


> Couldn't agree more with this statement. They're paid millions for playing a sport or appearing on screen.. it's ridiculous.


It’s also consensual market dynamics... The sports franchises are able to bring in so much money that they can afford to pay those players what they pay. Same deal with entertainment or film. Nobody makes you buy tickets, or buy the movie, or sign up for six optional sports channels on your cable package.


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