# Canadian Sappers in Greece - 1941



## Old Sweat (17 May 2009)

I recently purchased a reprint of a British publication titled Greece and Crete 1941. In the chapter dealing with the initial German attack on Greece and Yugoslavia I found the following:

. . . In Salonika there was time to destroy the oil stocks, installations and stores, the task of a special detachment of 
Canadian Royal Engineers [sic] known as the Kent Corps Troops. The vanguard of the German advance penetrated the outskirts of Salonika that night, and occupied the city at dawn the following morning, April 9th.

This would appear to be the first active service of Canadian troops in the Second World War other than the force in France in 1940. I am away from home, so I do not have access to my library. Can anyone provide some further informatio

Edit: to clarify other than in France in 1940.


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## armyvern (17 May 2009)

Tunnelers ...

http://www.cfps-web.com/21-1b.html

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cmhq/cmhq033.pdf (para 19)


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## Old Sweat (17 May 2009)

Thanks, Vern. I owe you several drinks for that.


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## armyvern (17 May 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Thanks, Vern. I owe you several drinks for that.



Yay!!  >

Your new purchase is listed in the Bibliography at the bottom of the first link - perhaps you should now pick up the other two which would hopefully have some more info for you (if not currently in your library).

I'm still digging through the net ...


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## Old Sweat (17 May 2009)

I have Six Years of War in my library, but I admit to not having consulted it for quite a while. Then, why would I unless I had a specific query. I shall, however, if for no other reason than to see if the Kent Corps Troops line is cited in it. 

My potential tab is growing.


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## 54/102 CEF (17 May 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Tunnelers ...
> 
> see our Combat Diver pages here and a story on the Tunnelers who also laid the base of the Gibralter Airport
> 
> ...


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## Rifleman62 (19 May 2009)

Without looking it up, were there not some Canadian troops involved in the Norway ops in late 1940??? Also I believe that the Canadian Arty lost some guns that were unloaded, never in action. Few troops disembarked prior to being sent back to England just prior to the fall of France.


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## 54/102 CEF (19 May 2009)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Without looking it up, were there not some Canadian troops involved in the Norway ops in late 1940??? Also I believe that the Canadian Arty lost some guns that were unloaded, never in action. Few troops disembarked prior to being sent back to England just prior to the fall of France.



A good memory jogger! See link below and extracts

http://www.lermuseum.org/ler/mh/wwii/canadaatwar.html

NORWAY  

In August and September of 1941, a small Canadian force that included a company of The Edmonton Regiment with detachments of The Saskatoon Light Infantry and 3rd Field Engineer Company was part of a combined British-Norwegian-Canadian operation to destroy mining activities and communications installations on the Norwegian island of Spitzbergen. Most Canadian soldiers, however, would not engage the German army for another two years.

ARTY LOST GUNS? NEVER! 
After the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) and French forces from Dunkirk, a second BEF was dispatched to France through Brittany. The 1st Canadian Division was ordered to France but quickly recalled to England as France sued for peace. Only the 1st Brigade actually reached Brittany. Although the brigade managed to bring all its troops back, as well as its 24 field artillery guns, it had to abandon most of its vehicles.


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## Rifleman62 (19 May 2009)

Old Sweat: email sent to you.

Here is a link to Six Years of War: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/Canada/CA/SixYears/index.html

Page 260: Only two men of the 1st Canadian Division, Privates G. Hansen and A. Johannson, saw active service in Norway _(prior to Spitzbergen)_ They were soldiers of the Saskatoon Light Infantry (M.G.), who spoke Norwegian and were lent as interpreters to the 1st Battalion of the King's, Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, their own unit's allied regiment. They saw action in the neighbourhood of Dombaas with their adopted battalion, and withdrew with it through Aandalsnes in due course. (They recorded afterwards that the main language difficulty they had met was in understanding Yorkshire English.)24 

Wrong about The Guns. The 2nd B.E.F. Jun 40, page 282

Only, with difficulty were the guns of the R.C.H.A. saved from destruction. It would appear that General de Fonblanque* and his staff were apprehensive lest attempts to save equipment might result in the loss of men. Lt.-Col. Roberts went to Garrison Headquarters and, in the words of his unit's diary, "fought hard for nearly two hours to save the guns". The order to destroy them was twice given and twice countermanded; and it is quite probable that they would finally have been destroyed had not the Garrison Commandant, Colonel W. B. Mackie, been an ex-cadet of the Royal Military College of Canada. Mackie spoke to de Fonblanque by telephone and obtained his reluctant acquiescence in embarking the guns. Roberts was told that he could load as many as he could get aboard by 4 p.m. It was then 2:15. By four he had loaded not only 24 field guns but in addition a dozen Bofors guns, seven predictors, three Bren carriers and several technical vehicles belonging to other units. The R.C.H.A.'s tractors and ammunition limbers had, however, to be abandoned.106 According to its diary, the steamer Bellerophon, on which the guns were loaded, had "still had room enough to take everything that was on the docks". The three vessels carrying portions of the regiment sailed at 5:15 p.m. on 17 June, and docked the following morning at Plymouth and Falmouth. The loss of equipment sharpened the gunners' disgust at having had to scuttle without meeting the Germans. The R.C.H.A. diary commented tartly, "Although there was evidently no enemy within 200 miles, the withdrawal was conducted as a rout." † 

The rail parties of the Canadian infantry left France before the artillery. The trains were duly turned back in the early hours of the 15th. That carrying The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment had reached Laval, that with The Royal Canadian Regiment a place "believed to have been Chateaubriant" (this is unlikely, as they had already passed through Laval, which is on a different line). These two trains were back in Brest that evening and the men upon them were re-embarked on a British steamer which sailed the next afternoon and made Plymouth on the 17th.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The strain under which this officer was working can be readily imagined. He died soon afterwards as a result of his exertions. 
†It is a remarkable but incontestable fact that, although one of the R.C.H.A.'s guns had been damaged in a road accident en route to Parce and turned in to Ordnance, so that the regiment returned to Brest with only twenty-three 18/25 and 25-pounders, it brought its full complement of twenty-four back to England.


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## OpieRWestmrR (19 May 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> . . . In Salonika there was time to destroy the oil stocks, installations and stores, the task of a special detachment of Canadian Royal Engineers [sic] known as the Kent Corps Troops. The vanguard of the German advance penetrated the outskirts of Salonika that night, and occupied the city at dawn the following morning, April 9th.
> 
> This would appear to be the first active service of Canadian troops in the Second World War other than the force in France in 1940...



What a fascinating story, thanks for raising it. While I'm reluctant to trust Wikipedia in detail this provides a good starting point. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Fortress_Royal_Engineers

I gather Kent Corps Troops was one name for a Royal Engineers formation grown out of the Kent (Fortress) Royal Engineers which specialised in heavy demolitions. People were seconded from it wherever they were needed - extremely active in 1940-41. The Wikipedia link suggests KFRE members were sent to Gibraltar to advise on oil bunker demolition when RCE tunnellers were there. It also says a KFRE aka Kent Corps Troops detachment was in Greece from late 1940.

If I understand ArmyVern's link right, the Canadian detachment from Gibraltar arrived by ship a day before the German invasion and couldn't accomplish its task, but the KFRE Wikipedia link says the facilities at Salonika and Volos _were _destroyed(?) 

In any event, it would be interesting to find out how the Canadian engineers escaped. This link:

http://www.reahq.org.uk/kent-corps-troops-in-greece-1940---1941/

suggests the British Engineers involved withdrew down the Aegean to Crete and then North Africa. Did our guys do the same?


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## Old Sweat (20 May 2009)

Okay. A couple of points.

First, Rifleman 62, I have not received your email. I have checked my deletions and my spam folder as well as the old mail. No luck.

Now, what I am seeing here is a short statement in one of the short histories produced by the British Ministry of Defence in the late-forties includes an unsubstantiated statement that Canadians were in Greece in early-1941. Unfortunately the author, who had been in Greece in 1941, was killed in Korea in 1950, so it is unlikely that he had written much more on the subject. I note that the first reference cited by Vern includes his work as a reference along with Six Years of War and an article on censors marks. I have just checked Six Years of War using both Greece and Gibraltar as well as the Royal Canadian Engineers as my start point with no luck. I also re-read Vern's second reference which only refers to Sappers in Gibraltar. 

This leads me back to the start point - especially given OpieRWestmrR's references - we do not have any hard information that Canadian sappers served in Greece in 1941. In particular we do not have a primary source of information to support the claim. It also seems to me that tunnelers might not have had the necessary skill sets to carry out a demolition programme of fuel and port facilities, etc. 54/102 CEF provided some detailed information on the tunnelers, which does not mention the foray into Greece.

Unless someone can come up with something better, this is a dead end and I am not all that sure that it really happened. (Vern, I still owe you a bunch of booze.) Having said that, my mind is open and I am quite prepared to be proven wrong.


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## Danjanou (20 May 2009)

OS

Things have been quiet around here, so this looks like a little time waster. I'll try and comb through my library and of course the web for any info either positivley confirming or disproving this little tidbit. No beer involved either, in fact I think I owe you one. 8)

I was well aware of the RCE in Gib, after taking a tour of the tunnels, someone pointed out the Canadian connection to me over a pint in Ye Olde Rock Inne, an establishment BTW that may rival the Black Bear.


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## PanaEng (20 May 2009)

> It also seems to me that tunnelers might not have had the necessary skill sets to carry out a demolition programme of fuel and port facilities, etc.


It wouldn't be much of a stretch as tunnelers are already very familiar with explosives and in those days any experience at all was golden.

Chimo!
Frank


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## Old Sweat (20 May 2009)

I sent the following to the Royal Engineers Museum asking for information on this event:

I recently purchased a reprint of a British publication titled Greece and Crete 1941. In the chapter dealing with the initial German attack on Greece and Yugoslavia I found the following unsourced tidbit:

. . . In Salonika there was time to destroy the oil stocks, installations and stores, the task of a special detachment of Canadian Royal Engineers [sic] known as the Kent Corps Troops. The vanguard of the German advance penetrated the outskirts of Salonika that night, and occupied the city at dawn the following morning, April 9th.

A web search revealed a short paper of the Canadian Forces Philatelic Society which repeats the information. Note that it cites Greece and Crete 1941 as one of its three sources. The other main source, The Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, Vol I Six Years of War, makes no mention of this particular incident, although it covers such other varied detachments as the Canadian RCEME radar mechanics and special signals unit in Australia, the muleteers in 14th Army and on and on. The third source appears to be a specialized pamphlet on censor stamps.

http://www.cfps-web.com/21-1b.html

In early 1941 a tunnel company of Canadian sappers was sent to Gibraltar. Details may be found at paragraph 19 of the following report:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cmhq/cmhq033.pdf

A short history may be found at the following site. Note that it makes no mention of Greece.

http://www.westernsappers.ca/CDAC/pages/whatsnew.htm#GIBRALTER

Now, while wikipedia is not generally considered a reliable source, the following site provides some information on the "Kent Corps Troops." 

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Fortress_Royal_Engineers

It appears Kent Corps Troops was one name for a Royal Engineers formation grown out of the Kent (Fortress) Royal Engineers which may have specialized in heavy demolitions. People were seconded from it wherever they were needed - extremely active in 1940-41. The Wikipedia link suggests KFRE members were sent to Gibraltar to advise on oil bunker demolition when the RCE tunnellers were there. It also says a KFRE aka Kent Corps Troops detachment was in Greece from late 1940. 

Before I dismiss the statement in Greece and Crete 1941 as a military rumour elevated to history, could you advise if your records indicate if any Canadian Sappers were involved with the above mentioned incident?

Edit to add: I apologize for not acknowledging the work of many others in gathering this information. That was plagiarism, and was not my intent. If and when I receive an answer from the UK, I shall correct any false impression I may have left with them.


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## OpieRWestmrR (24 May 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I sent the following to the Royal Engineers Museum asking for information on this event:



Well done OS. Please keep us posted.


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## armyvern (24 May 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Edit to add: I apologize for not acknowledging the work of many others in gathering this information. That was plagiarism, and was not my intent. If and when I receive an answer from the UK, I shall correct any false impression I may have left with them.



Claim it under "delegation".  

Geez, just saw a direct "copy & paste" last week of my email up to Coy Ops on the CCR Raingear fielding for Gagetown get directly "pasted" into a new email by the Branch Ops O here to go out to all the Units with nary a mention.

Does plagarism count at work too? This happens often - it's also quite friggin' irritating watching others send out your work on their signature block.

In this case though - you asked - we just aswered.  

Cheers!! :-*


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## Old Sweat (25 May 2009)

Thanks to all, once again. I got a 'wait, out' from the Royal Engineers Museum along with a suggestion that they might be able to let me know if they had any information in the next two to three months. Even then, all I would get is whether or not they had any documentary evidence and it would be up to me to either visit the museum or arrange for a local researcher to examine the documents. Yeah sure.

Now, Vern, I thought you had been in since before coffee break Thursday. Surely this is not the first time a superior has basked in the glory of your work. I also suspect that you have been the unfortunate recipient of the fruits of the old adage "Crap flows downhill."


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## Danjanou (25 May 2009)

OS I reposted your query over at ARRSE and a couple war gaming/mil history sites I check. (grognards are often fanatical historians). So far only one possible lead came up on ARRSE

Someone there suggested this history of the Kent Corps written by their CO.

XD Operations: Secret British Missions Denying Oil to the Nazis

It is available via Amazon:

http://www.amazon.ca/XD-Operations-British-Missions-Denying/dp/1844151360/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243259018&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.ca/XD-Operations-British-Missions-Denying/dp/1844153134/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1243258962&sr=8-3


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## Old Sweat (25 May 2009)

Thanks, James.

I have ordered a paperback copy. It is not in stock, but at least the order has been recorded and will be shipped at some time in the future.


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## Danjanou (25 May 2009)

I was thinking of getting a copy myself, looks like an interesting read.


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## dapaterson (25 May 2009)

Has anyone consulted the History of the RCE (http://www.cmea-agmc.ca/books_History_e.asp)?  It's in 3 volumes, and volume 2 has a reasonably good overview of the WWII years (though, as with all official histories, many of the more interesting details were excised to avoid offence / hide offences; I recall a throw-away line mentioning that the 4th Fd Coy RCE had one of the best collections of vehicle spare parts, scrounged from unknown sources, and was dismayed when those vehicles were lost to enemy action.  The history of the QM "acquiring" those parts would no doubt fill another volume, but alas, I fear the statute of limitations precluded publishing those details)


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## Old Sweat (28 Aug 2009)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> OS I reposted your query over at ARRSE and a couple war gaming/mil history sites I check. (grognards are often fanatical historians). So far only one possible lead came up on ARRSE
> 
> Someone there suggested this history of the Kent Corps written by their CO.
> 
> ...



I ordered this book back in May and it arrived today. The following refers to demolitions in the Port of Salonika:

The remaining few hours were devoted to evacuating as many refugees as possible from the port and, as usual on these occasions many pathetic scenes were witnessed. . . 

   Final arrangements for demolition were complete, except in the case of one oil installation where the manager had pro-Axis sympathies. Up to this point nothing could be done, but now the course was clear and, after ten minutes brisk engagement by our chaps, the place was in their hands, all the defenders having either been killed or driven off.

  As the Germans entered the town, they [the 'chaps'] managed to blow up or fire all their objectives. The petrol refineries were left ablaze from end to end . . .

From my point of view, this seems to settle the issue. British, not Canadian, sappers demolished the facilities at Salonika.


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## Danjanou (28 Aug 2009)

I Came across another interesting, but probably not related , operation involving both the RCE (3 Field Company, RCE from 1st Div) and the Kent Fortress Engineers. Both were involved in Operation Gauntlet the raid on Spitzbergen in Aug 1941. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gauntlet

Yes I know the link is Wiki but sometimes it’s a good start for obsure info.


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## Old Sweat (28 Aug 2009)

There is a chapter on the Spitzbergen operation in the book. 

Just a short comment on the book, as I have not yet read it completely. The author seems to have an aversion to dates and I am not sure the chapters follow a logical sequence. For example, Spitzbergen, which took place in August 1941, is two chapter ahead of the Greek expedition which was in early 1941.

The book would have benefitted from a rigourous editing.


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## Danjanou (28 Aug 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The book would have benefitted from a rigourous editing.



I could say the same about the one I’m reading now Mark Zuelhleke’s Terrible Victory, First Canadian Army and the Scheldt Campaign: September 13- November 6, 1944.

Overall not too bad, not too in depth but then not monotonous and dry either. About on par with his other works and a decent enough primer.

It  is though full of small and irritating errors. I never knew my old regiment the Toronto Scottish had 3” mortars and a special .50 cal Vickers. I have to call the museum in FYA and tell them to bin the .303 Vickers and 4.2” Heavy Mortar as obviously they’re wrong. RM Arty also appear to employ the heavy feared 3.5mm AA gun, much superior to the older imperial 3.5” version.  :


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## OpieRWestmrR (31 Aug 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> ...this seems to settle the issue. British, not Canadian, sappers demolished the facilities at Salonika.



Thanks for following through with all of that, OS.


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