# Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

 Missing funds close P.E.I. legion hall

Last Updated: Monday, April 19, 2010 | 7:29 AM AT
CBC News 
Article Link


*A Royal Canadian Legion hall on P.E.I.'s North Shore closed for good Saturday, unable to recover from an incident that led to theft charges.*

'This was our branch. It was our home. But it's just memories now.' —Arthur Pineau
RCMP have charged George Allan Doucette from North Rustico with theft and fraud in connection with the missing money.

The North Rustico Legion reported the loss of a significant amount of money in the fall of 2008. That incident, along with dwindling membership, prompted members to vote in favour of closing the legion hall last week.

Last Friday, a handful of men were enjoying a last game of cards and glass of beer. One of them was Arthur Pineau, one of the few veterans left here.

"We had a great legion going," said Pineau.

"I'm not bragging, but we were the envy of all the country branches. This was our branch. It was our home. But it's just memories now. That's all we have of it, I guess."

New location sought
The members will try to sell the property, but they still want to keep their chapter alive and find another place to meet. Paul Sampson has been a member of the legion for years.

"Comradeship, that's what it's all about. Like these gentlemen over here now. They're here every afternoon to play cards, chat and tell a few lies," said Sampson.

"They've been doing it for years.... Where are we going to go?"

Officials with the legion have been trying to keep the building open since the money went missing. They tried recruiting younger members but it wasn't enough.

Pineau said the loss will be a blow to the community.

"I'm going to miss it a lot. There's a lot of guys with it. It's a very sad time for us," he said.

North Rustico is the fourth legion hall to close on P.E.I.

Doucette is charged with theft over $5,000, fraud over $5,000 and uttering a forged document. He pleaded not guilty to the charges in March. The trial is scheduled for September.



Read more (Comments): http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2010/04/19/pei-missing-money-legion-closed-584.html#socialcomments#ixzz0lam7S5N8


I remember about fifteen years ago, the same thing happened at the Borden, PEI Legion.  The Manager took off with all the cash.


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## jollyjacktar

It is sad that the Branch was forced to close as a result of theft.  It does however make me wonder in the coming years how the Legion will survive the increased numbers of Vets from WW2/Korea passing on.  Is it in danger of becoming memory?


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## Fishbone Jones

Legions are closing all over the country for many reasons. In large part, the Legions have been taken over by Associate members who have no, or few, ties to the military. Not many Executive boards have Vets in charge. On the face, the Associates make hay about the Legion goals, but few really take it to heart. They have become little social empires that really don't think much about the vets. They have trouble looking past next weekks meat draw. They have been told time and again, that in order to survive, they have to reach out and attracts the current crop of returning vets, but they don't. It would likely mean that down the line the Executive boards would return back to ex military people and the Associates don't want that. It's sad to go to Legion functions and see everyone at the head table wearing only Legion medals on the right and nothing on the left side.


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## Tank Troll

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's sad to go to Legion functions and see everyone at the head table wearing only Legion medals on the right and nothing on the left side.



This is so true. Last time I was at my home town legion there were only 5 vets left and all the head table had their medals on the right side. A couple actually looked a me with disdain and said that while I was traipsing around the world they were actually doing some good work helping out in the comunity, and promptly showed me their 25 years worth of legion medals. Before I could say any thing my Dad looked at me and said "never argue with fools as some one watching might not be able to tell the differance." Out of respect for my Father I bit my tounge, left and haven't been back.


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## Michael OLeary

It would be interesting to know what percentage of money raised by Legions across the country goes into managing property, buildings and other infrastructure. Especially as some Branches have decreasing membership, how much of their efforts simply support the decline of a slowly failing business model. By comparison, I was recently at a dinner with a Legion Branch that, since its creation in 1929, has had embedded in their own constitution that they would never own a building.

My other question would be: what happens to the collected memorabilia, etc., that so many branches have on their walls, in display cases and in storerooms?  Who actually owns it and what is being down to ensure its further preservation in accordance with original donor wishes?


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## George Wallace

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> My other question would be: what happens to the collected memorabilia, etc., that so many branches have on their walls, in display cases and in storerooms?  Who actually owns it and what is being down to ensure its further preservation in accordance with original donor wishes?



Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what the original donor's wishes may be, unless it is a Temporary Loan to the Legion from the owner.   Just as a Mess may decide to throw donations into the dumpster should they not match the new decor, so would a Legion.  In the majority of cases, the people making these decisions don't have the knowledge or training to realize the value of these items and treat them as junk.


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## Jarnhamar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Legions are closing all over the country for many reasons. In large part, the Legions have been taken over by Associate members who have no, or few, ties to the military. Not many Executive boards have Vets in charge. On the face, the Associates make hay about the Legion goals, but few really take it to heart. They have become little social empires that really don't think much about the vets. They have trouble looking past next weekks meat draw. *They have been told time and again, that in order to survive, they have to reach out and attracts the current crop of returning vets, but they don't.* It would likely mean that down the line the Executive boards would return back to ex military people and the Associates don't want that. It's sad to go to Legion functions and see everyone at the head table wearing only Legion medals on the right and nothing on the left side.



I'm uncomfortable with calling myself a vet but technically I guess I am. (Obviously like many many others here)

With all due respect to the _Vets_ I've been to the legion numerous times for various things and I've always been made to feel quite unwelcomed. The same with my peers who I was overseas with.  I've flt like I was almost tresspassing at some closed door club.  I realize what I (we) have went through differs greatly than the generations before us but at what point does the next generation start filling up the ranks of the legion?


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## gt102

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> This is so true. Last time I was at my home town legion there were only 5 vets left and all the head table had their medals on the right side. A couple actually looked a me with disdain and said that while I was traipsing around the world they were actually doing some good work helping out in the comunity, and promptly showed me their 25 years worth of legion medals. Before I could say any thing my Dad looked at me and said "never argue with fools as some one watching might not be able to tell the differance." Out of respect for my Father I bit my tounge, left and haven't been back.



You have a strong willpower good sir.

That chap/gal has absolutely no brain in that head of theirs.


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## Tank Troll

Flawed Design 

I couldn't agree with you more. I have felt the exact same way on many occasions. I wonder if the Korea Vets Were treated the same way by the WW II vets and were the WW II vets treated that way by the WW I vets. My Father is a WW II and Korea Vet, and supports the Military with out question. But whole heartedly thinks we have no business in Afghanistan and believes they should be left to their on vices.

Crowe 

Had my Dad not been there, or said anything it would have been a totaly different story.


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## my72jeep

I under stand what some of you have gone through. As a 21 year old returning from a 3 year posting to Lahr in thew late 80's. I went with my brother 10 years my Senior, who had 6 months in the Reserves to the local Legion. upon ordering a beer I had to defend my right to be in the legion to a gaggle of associate members living on daddies past exploit's. I have never been back to that Legion, In fact I would go out of my way to avoid it and go to legion in the next town.


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## jollyjacktar

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I'm uncomfortable with calling myself a vet but technically I guess I am. (Obviously like many many others here)
> 
> With all due respect to the _Vets_ I've been to the legion numerous times for various things and I've always been made to feel quite unwelcomed. The same with my peers who I was overseas with.  I've flt like I was almost tresspassing at some closed door club.  I realize what I (we) have went through differs greatly than the generations before us but at what point does the next generation start filling up the ranks of the legion?



My Dad told me that when he came home from overseas in 45/6 he went to the No. 1 Branch in downtown Calgary.  He was in uniform and was told he could not come in for a drink and was basically treated like crap.  He said it took him many years to get over the poor welcome.  I myself, have not had a bad experience thankfully and hope that I never do.  Mind you it has been many years since I have darkened their door and I have not had dealings with the hoards of "associates" that are stepping into positions of power.  Maybe they might be troublesome.


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## Old Sweat

Cripes, we must be lucky here in a little town south of Ottawa. Mind you, we experienced troops working in our area during the ice storm, so that may have had an effect on local attitudes. The fact that we are a bedroom community for Ottawa and have a lot of members from all three services (and the ski team) living here does not hurt. We also lost a local lad in Afghanistan and his picture is on the wall in the Legion Hall. Another local was wounded a few tours back and there is at least soldier from here in country now. The local branch requests a contingent from Petawawa for each Remembrance Day and hosts them after the parade. Last year I spent a fair amount of time with the OC and CSM of a company from 3 RCR, who brought their troops down. Both made a point of saying how much they enjoyed coming to our town. While I am not a member of the legion, I support many of their events and have not experienced any disdain towards those still serving. Or maybe I am just too thick to notice.


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## ekpiper

I am a Legion member, primarily because I feel that it is one of the best organizations to support.  Some branches have many problems, (RecceGuy, are you referring to a certain branch near Jefferson?) but others are still doing many valiant things.  I do think that more Forces members should join up to keep it alive for the benefit of veterans going.


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## Michael OLeary

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what the original donor's wishes may be, unless it is a Temporary Loan to the Legion from the owner.   Just as a Mess may decide to throw donations into the dumpster should they not match the new decor, so would a Legion.  In the majority of cases, the people making these decisions don't have the knowledge or training to realize the value of these items and treat them as junk.



Yes George, that's the short blunt answer.

It also highlights the possible hypocrisy of any solution that does not uphold the Legions alleged role of preserving the memory of our nation's veterans.



> Legion Mission Statement
> 
> OUR MISSION IS
> TO SERVE VETERANS
> AND THEIR DEPENDANTS,
> PROMOTE REMEMBRANCE
> AND ACT IN THE
> SERVICE OF CANADA
> AND ITS COMMUNITIES



To meet their own mission statement, I would hope that the Legion (local, regional and national), on some grander scale than moment the panic of a sheriff locking doors when the mortgage hasn't been paid, has some plan for the artifacts entrusted to their care (although I am equally certain they do not).


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## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> To meet their own mission statement, I would hope that the Legion (local, regional and national), on some grander scale than moment the panic of a sheriff locking doors when the mortgage hasn't been paid, has some plan for the artifacts entrusted to their care (although I am equally certain they do not).



Hopefully, it doesn't end up on E-Bay. There was a similar story about items in a private museum being auctioned off on the Net. 
Silverthorn Branch ( 1923 ) recently relocated from their historic old building to a shopping plaza. The old place was like the History Channel. I stopped by the new place, but it's just not the same. Swansea ( 1927 ) is still in operation. So is Mount Dennis ( 1954 ). I mostly know these places because my wife is a dart player. But, we used to go for drinks in them after work.
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/local/article/217553--silverthorn-legion-alive-and-well-in-new-digs

Come to think of it, the one on Queen W. closed as did the one by Roncesvalles. Dovercourt is still open. 
I always looked in the display cases and asked questions. Wilson Heights is a busy one. Even since the base closed. Earlescourt moved into the Galleria. Weston moved too. Fairbank. There were lots of them!  
It's all sports bars now. Same thing happened to the cocktail bars out on the Airport strip. MADD probably had an impact as well.
I am of an age when most of our fathers were "in the war". Just regular working guys out watering their lawns. Sad, to see them go. 

I am an Ordinary RCL member.


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## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> Hopefully, it doesn't end up on E-Bay.



Better to eBay and thence to collectors who understand and respect the artifacts, than into a box in the last Sergeant-at-Arms basement (perhaps to be discarded as "old junk" by an unaware heir decades later).

I'd just like to know what the Royal Canadian Legion's general policies are on the disposal of artifacts from failing Branches. If they have any, that is.


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## sheikyerbouti

With all due respect to the Milnet community, I do not wish to spark some variation on this age old pissing match but when it comes to ther RCL, I stand fast as a staunch proponent of their activities (be they nation-wide or community based).

 @ Mr. O'Leary

 The RCL has a policy which states that all property of any branch is to be handed over to Provincial command for the safekeeping of material of historical interest. In furtherance to this policy, no individual may benefit from said divestiture of assets (hence no Sgt. at Arms will be stocking up their basement anytime soon.)


 In the interest of spreading the goodwill of the RCL, I would invite the CF (active and retired) to examine their relationships with their local branches. From my perspective, the main reason why you guys (and gals) trash the RCl is because you no longer participate in the activities that we conduct on a regular basis. In the Vancouver region, the participation of the CF is non-existent apart from some individuals and cadet organizations. I find this particularily offensive when we are commemorating your services, yet your chain of command sees no reason to take part. There is always more to Remembrance than November 11th, yet you will be hard pressed to see anyone in CF dress take part in Vancouver unless they are collecting a paycheque.

 As with any long term organization, the RCL is undergoing a rationalization of their functions and in the Lower Mainland and I would hazard the opinion that we are on the right track.

 We are: 
building new branches (PoCo, Burnaby, Port Moody, Steveston,etc.)
Housing more veterans (at affordable rates) in well kept properties (New Chelsea society)
offering rehab facilities to those in need of longer term care (Winch House, Vancouver)
supporting youth Track and Field and Cadet corps.
continuing scholarships and bursaries
Maintaining Remembrance duties and Memorials (new Vancouver Cenotaph, updates to New Westminster)
sponsoring community events (parades, Canada day, etc.)


While the membership picture is not rosy across the country, it is up to the individual branches to make themselves relevant to todays modern Veterans and I would argue that the major obstacle to this modernization would be the almost complete lack of interest from todays Vets. Numbering somewhere near 40, 000+ individuals, the complement of Afg. veterans is sufficient to make a dramatic impact on the RCL and its' governance but yet you choose not to participate. (new blood brings new ideas)


 With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).


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## Michael OLeary

sheikyerbouti,

Despite your tone, thank you for your reply on the RCL's intended policy concerning Branch property when a Branch closes.  Could you explain what happens when property is handed over to a provincial command when this occurs.

Now, at the risk of extending your chosen tangent:

Regarding the rest of your post, the only consistent impression I received from it is an expectation that the CF and CF members "need to get on board" with the RCL.  Perhaps it is the RCL that has to figure out how to attract new members, including and especially those currently serving and recently retired service members.

The onus, sheikyerbouti, should not be placed on us to meet your expectations.

Regards

Michael O'Leary


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## Fishbone Jones

sheikyerbouti said:
			
		

> With all due respect to the Milnet community, I do not wish to spark some variation on this age old pissing match but when it comes to ther RCL, I stand fast as a staunch proponent of their activities (be they nation-wide or community based).
> 
> While the membership picture is not rosy across the country, it is up to the individual branches to make themselves relevant to todays modern Veterans and I would argue that the major obstacle to this modernization would be the almost complete lack of interest from todays Vets. Numbering somewhere near 40, 000+ individuals, the complement of Afg. veterans is sufficient to make a dramatic impact on the RCL and its' governance but yet you choose not to participate. (new blood brings new ideas)
> 
> 
> With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).



Spoken just like a true Associate member


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## SeanNewman

I joined the Legion (594 Windsor) before I could drink as a 17-year old Mo-litia member, and already the "Ordinary" board was perhaps 1/10th the size of the "Associate" board.  15+ years later, now that a lot more WW2 vets have died, I think I'm in very rare company now.  It all seems to be based around dart leagues now though more than vets.

Unlike some experiences here though, I have had nothing but positive ones when I go back there, and am treated almost like a rock star.  I think that's personality dependent though because the bartender has been there forever and she's a great woman who never forgets anyone.  I donated a modest Afghan display box to them to show my appreciation.

Sheik,

Trying to read between the lines of what you are stating to see if there's anything to be learned by it, I think I am tracking your main points.  RecceGuy and Michael O'Leary are technically right that the onus should be on the Legion to attract today's soldiers, but at the same time I do think it's a two-way street and from my limited experience what I have seen supports what you are saying.

However, what hasn't been mentioned though is that it's not due to an anti-Legion mindset by any means but messes already existing most bases.  Other than 11 Nov, whenever someone is getting promoted, we go to the mess.  Whenever the is a formal dinner, we go to the mess.  Whenever there's a family function, it's at the mess.

But because of your post, the next time a social function is in the planning stage where I am at, I promise you that I will test the waters by suggesting the Legion instead of the mess to potentially build some bridges where they have been lost.


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## Fishbone Jones

........and so there is no mistake, I joined the Legion in '72, as an Ordinary, and am still a member.


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## 1feral1

sheikyerbouti said:
			
		

> I find this particularily offensive when we are commemorating your services.



Thats a rather arrogant comment. Our services? I thought the Legion was an organisation started by Veterans in the first place, mate you don't owe us any favours. That being said, your dedication to the RCL is appreciated.

I view the RCL branches as a dismal organisation at best. Every single one I've been to is in need of a re-fit/upgrade/modernisation, and are dull and boring places.

How many Vets in their 70s and 80s now want to go out for a drink, travel long distances or navigate crap neighbourhoods?

The Legion in my opinion is dying, and they should have seen this 30 yrs back as the WW1 Vets were dying off.  The Regina No.1 Branch is pathetic, the same furniture and fixtures for over 30 yrs. I avoided the RCL at all costs shy of 11 Nov. Why, they had nothing to offer me, except a small cliquiey bunch of dye-hard local swillers, who chain smoked up a storm, and looked down at their noses with us. No younger groups, nothing!

In 2004, I presented the Regina RCL a plaque, and the place had not changed a bit, and it was all but empty, on the verge of closing. It stunk. urinal cakes, stale urine, stale beer, and smoke, appeared unclean and was a real fizzer. A small kiosk next to the 1950s vintage toilets which was unmanned.

In 2008 I was to the Sask Command HQ which was a small musty dark dismal office from the 1960s, located in an unattractive run down building, in a dirty high crime neighbourhood (5th Ave, Regina). Poor parking and a total turn-off, and one single woman employee was all there was. Sad!

The Australian RSL seen problems coming decades ago, and every RSL I've been to is a prosperous and vibrant place, which knows how to make money, and preserve the ANZAC spirit. Ther torch was passed from the WW1 Vets to the WW2 and Korean Vets, then now on to the Viet Nam Vets (mainly in their 60s now), and even now the Iraq (I am in my 50s) and Afghan Vets are getting involved. The culture is alive well and grows not only in numbers, but spirit.

The general public too, feel as special bond as many of their fathers and uncles, etc have served, and they sign up with pride. The politics between the RSL and the ADF community is brilliant, and the anti-culture that seems to breed between the RCL and the CF is simply not there.

As ANZAC Day fast approaches this coming Sunday, my local branch wil be overflowing from public support, Veterans, Cadets and a ADF presence. RSLs even run private buses to pick and drop off members at their homes, for free! Subsidised meals and drinks for members with great weekly draws for excellent prizes.

Again the culture between the RSL, and non-veteran citizens could not be more positive and supportive.

I'll be sure to post some pics from this Sunday.

My two cents.

Here is a few websites which I encourage you and others to examine and learn from.

National organisation http://www.rsl.org.au/

Caloundra RSL on the mainland an hour's drive from here http://www.caloundrarsl.com.au/

My local RSL here on the Island http://www.bribiersl.com.au/

Finally, when I used to live in Sydney's south, in Cronulla http://www.cronullarsl.com.au/



OWDU


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## jollyjacktar

Sheik, I was a member of the Legion many years ago.  The Branch where I grew up was mostly populated by the as OWDU stated the local heavy drinkers.  It was kind of a rough place and was not overly attractive.  I have not been back to my home town since the early 90's but I am sure nothing has changed in that regard.  I gave up my membership following the death of my Dad.  He was an alcoholic and it killed him.  I did not want to see more of that kind of drinking from the others.  No, I don't blame the RCL for his drinking, but it was a place where he and the others would frequent.

Nowadays, my closest Branch is about 40 km away.  Too far to make a habit of it, especially with the RCMP Det between there and home.  If I intend to have more than one or two drinks, I'll do it at home.


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## Danjanou

Gee another Legion bashing thread and it's not even Nov 11th yet. I'm with Recce, Mr. O'Leary, OWDU and Pet on this and yeah for the record I'm an ordinary member too.

The Legion as an organization brought this on decades ago. As the WW1 and WW2 vets stopped for the most part running the branches, commands etc. and the Associate and now Affiliate members took over. For reasons not known to me some branches even discouraged the newer generations of potential "Ordinary Members", the Cold warriors, the Peace Keepers etc from joining.

End result a defensive self righteous little clique of never served types now run the place. My Branch is nothing but a subsidized little drinking and card/darts club. The President is a joke and only concerned with moving up in the Legion hierarchy. He's incompetent, petty and vindictive. The Vice and soon to be President appears to have no interest in any of the traditions and raison d'etre of the RCL. Hell getting him to actually wear Legion Blues and Greys for meeting or show for a parade (Nov 11th etc) is a major undertaking. He looks at the place as his large personal Man Cave, a social club for him and cronies to enjoy their retirement. 

Meetings are a joke attending by less than 30 members, which is double what showed up for Remembrance Day last year, and this from a branch with an established membership of over 450. None of them understand the protocol of how to run a meeting, nor care. The books form what I can tell are a mess. They don't need a mananger to steal the cash box here, the inability to organize a two car funeral with a picture book of instructions will ensure this branch goes under.

And before you ask why I don't do something, I've tried. All that's got me, is bruised face from banging my head against a concrete pillar and looks and comments of resentment because I'm not a member of their little clique(s).  Add to that I'm one of those who actually put a friggin uniform.

Latest bit was the call I received yesterday from our VSO (Veterans Service Officer) who is one of the few WW2 vets still active in the branch. He was advising me that effective immediately by order of our esteemed Branch President, all visits to our few vets in hospitals and old age homes my members ( 3-4 of us) were to cease.  Yup that's right a branch of the RCL has decided that it can't be bothered to check up on it's own elderly members to make sure they're ok.

Personally if the old character who stormed Juno Beach tells me to stop popping by once month to see how he's doing and watch a movie with him on the VCR I bought him, fine.  But some twit who's only tenuous connection the military is he's the son of someone who defended Borden from potential Japanese Invasion in 1944 tells me to, frig him. I guess from now on I'll wear Regimental Association blazer when I go and visit.


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## Tank Troll

My Dad has no desire to go to the Legion any more and  He is a past President of the local branch. He always stated that it should be for Vets and retired service men and women only. It should be an exclusive club and the only way to gain entry is to serve your country with Honour.
Their mission should be 
1) Support other Vets and their families.
2) Make aware the sacrifice made by all vets by educating the children of this generation
3) Support soldiers and families from the local area on current mission.
4) Support the Cadet movement
 Not become a socail dart and drinking club for children and grand children of vets.


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## mariomike

I've always enjoyed statistics ( I know what Benjamin Disraeli had to say about them ). 
RCL "Memberhip statistical reports":
http://legion.ca/Membership/reports_e.cfm

From Wikipedia:
"Historically the Legion Hall was the social centre of many Canadian towns. This was especially the case in the provinces with severe restrictions on the sale of alcohol, rules from which the legions were generally exempt."

The area I live in was dry until 2000, so I can relate to that. Now, there's a bar on every other corner. 

"The law governing liability for the intoxicated has changed dramatically":
http://www.cap-insurance.com/docs_public/Canadian%20Alcohol%20Liability%20Study.pdf

With the introduction of "smoke free" by-laws in bars, there was discussion that the RCL might be exempted from the new rule. 
That did not happen, so the RCL did not get the business of smokers when bars went no smoking.
"I come here for the socializing. My friends don't show up any more because of the non-smoking. So I come in less and less.":
http://carleton.ca/Capital_News/02112001/feature.shtml
The story ( 2001 ) reports that 62.3% of RCL were over the age of 55.
"Dismayed that Legion Halls are included among the places where smoking will be banned effective May 31, 2006, veterans are among the most vocal critics of the new law.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118256271906_113665471/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Another sad story:
"Branch president Yvonne Lortie said costs associated with allowing alcohol on the premises make up a large chunk of the legion’s monthly expenses. 
“We might get rid of the liquor licence,” she said.":
http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1719043


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## Rifleman62

I was an Ordinary member of the RCL in Wpg. My Branch was clean, fairly modern, friendly, but sans past serving members of the military. Agree with OWDU, and some of the others critical of the RCL. 

I personally think we have the RCL, with it's never served executive at various levels, to thank for the New Veterans Charter. And of course, VAC. With it's client base of WWI Vets dead, the WWII and Korea Vets in their 80's to 90's, a annual operating budget of at least $1 Billion, thousands of employees, trips overseas in commemoration (more VAC pers than Vets), what else could VAC do but make everyone a Vet except Cadets. You really don't think it was done to help us do you. In keeping with it's policy VAC just wanted to piss off and frustrate new generations of ex Cdn military.



> But some twit who's only tenuous connection the military is he's the son of someone who defended Borden from potential Japanese Invasion in 1944....


 They were called Zombies during the war.

jolleyjacktar: The RCL was in an old Safeway building wasn't it???


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## Rifleman62

RCL by War Service
WW1                 1

WW2        26,430

Korea         2,548

Gulf            8,473

Total         37,452

Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?


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## SeanNewman

While this is mere speculation, is it possible that  those numbers the Legion are using got the Gulf as a catch-all for all operations conducted in the 1990s?

Edit - As Journayman points out below, the kinds of Ops I'm thinking of are the Bosnia/Somolia/Croatia-types of missions, since they are not showing up on the chart the gentleman posted.

I am not saying that is what the Legion has done, but it does seem odd that if ~4,000 CF soldiers were involved in the Gulf that the number for Legion members from the Gulf is over double that (but they don't show other theatres in the same timeframe).


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## mariomike

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Gulf            8,473
> Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?



Looks like about double the number of medals issued.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_and_Kuwait_Medal


----------



## Journeyman

Petamocto said:
			
		

> The only thing I can think of that justifies those numbers are using the "Gulf" as a catch-all for all operations conducted in the 1990s.


...like Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo   :

Over 4000 CF personnel, including a Naval Task Group (Terra Nova, Athabascan, Protecteur), elements of two CF-18 squadrons and a field hospital, participated in the Gulf War.


You _do_ realize that there's no obligation to post when you haven't a clue what you're talking about


----------



## dapaterson

I suspect the report is generated automatically - and anyone reporting that they served in 1990-91 is identified as a Gulf War vet.

Though the 08 report only states 1474 Gulf War vets.  And the 07 stated 9376.

All this to say:  It does not look like the Legion knows how to count (or at least not in a consistent manner).


There`s also been a precipitous decline in membership:  from a high of 600K in the mid 80s (with over half being former serving) to today, with under 350K, under half of whom have former service (and of those 112K, about 42K are "unknown"- likely non-RCMP police). If we omit the"unknown", we`ve got about 20% of Legion members as former CF.


And, of course, you have to love an organization which mis-spells "Military"on their website - look at the left-hand menu, select "About the Legion", then look at the penultimate entry "Miltary Heritage".


----------



## SeanNewman

Journeyman said:
			
		

> You _do_ realize that there's no obligation to post when you haven't a clue what you're talking about



You just said yourself that ~4,000 Canadians served in the Gulf.

The gentleman above posted that there are ~8,500 members from that theatre. 

Since nowhere near 100% (let alone 200%+) people who go to a theatre join the Legion, how would you like to suggest they came to the number of ~8,500 if they are not including other operations?

The ops you mentioned are exactly the kind that I am talking about, because what the gentleman posted didn't make mention of other theatres in that time frame.


----------



## chrisf

I have to say, I've had nothing but good experiences with our provincial legions... admitedly, they're primarily composed of associate members, but still nothing but good experiences... major support of the cadet movement, organizing local parades for all major memorial events, firm support of vets and serving troops....


----------



## Journeyman

Petamocto said:
			
		

> ....how would you like to suggest they came to the number of ~8,500?


I wouldn't. 

You see....
- I don't know the answer so I won't waste bandwidth or readers' time, 
- I have no compulsion to post, unlike some who apparently believe MilPoints have cash value (in person, these tend to be the same people whose self-delusions of intellect and popularity cause them to monopolize conversations), and
- I'm familiar with the expression "stay in your lane"; this one's not mine.

I now return you to the Legion-bashing thread.


For disclosure, I was a Legion member; my membership lapsed many years ago and I haven't missed it a bit.


----------



## Michael OLeary

WW1        1
WW2   26,430
Korea  2,548
Gulf   8,473
Total 37,452

If someone served in both the Second World War and Korea, how are they counted?  Or have they been counted twice?


----------



## SeanNewman

Journey,

I apologize if you took it that I was going outside my lanes or I offended you.

It was meant as a way to possibly explain it; nothing more.

I have changed my original post to reflect that there seems to be a discrepency with ~4,000 vets from there and ~8,500 vets from there, and it is mere speculation as to how the Legion is posting the numbers they are.

Cheers, and sorry.


----------



## 1feral1

Here is the Regina Legion's website. http://www.reginalegion.ca/home   Aside from learning about the ladies Auxilliery being established in 1930, the site has nothing to offer, with the last 'event' scheduled for September 2009, almost 9 months ago.

Like I said, pathetic. Even the website is dead.

My local RSL is on an island with a population of just 16,000, and Regina is a capital city with a population of 200,000.

Gotta make a run into Brisbane for work, nearly 0540h now.

Cheers,

OWDU


----------



## gt102

I've heard murmors around the armories of one of the Hamilton Branches shutting it's doors. I can only hope it's not the one on Barton, they have always provided tremendous support to the cadets around the here.


----------



## armyvern

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> RCL by War Service
> WW1                 1
> 
> WW2        26,430
> 
> Korea         2,548
> 
> Gulf            8,473
> 
> Total         37,452
> 
> Does Canada have that many Gulf War Vets?



Perhaps the "Gulf" numbers include identified "91 Gulf War vets" and "post Sept 2001 identified Gulf Region" Vets? Perhaps identified as "Gulf" because we have TFA, CM, Iraq & Arabian Gulf pers in those numbers?

Just my thoughts ...  ???


----------



## jollyjacktar

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> jolleyjacktar: The RCL was in an old Safeway building wasn't it???



No.  I was raised in Fort MacLeod, Alta.  As far as I know the RCL was purpose built in the age of the Dinosaurs.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

26th year as a member and have never felt as though I wasn't welcome at any Legion in Canada.........


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> 26th year as a member and have never felt as though I wasn't welcome at any Legion in Canada.........



That is because, besides your charming nature, you look like you would be able to crush anyone's head like a grape if they mouthed off!


Even when you wear the Miami Vice Jacket!

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

Tess, do you remember when the 48th Club was on Church St.? 
Although not officially RCL, it was a CF Old Comrades Association.


----------



## the 48th regulator

mariomike said:
			
		

> Tess, do you remember when the 48th Club was on Church St.?



No,

They sold it Just when I joined and moved it over to Leslie Street.  A shame.  We owned the property, and then ended up leasing the new place.  We had to eventually close the new one, as it drained way to much money from our trust.

Now we "Host" the club in the Sgt.'s and W.O's mess, but it is just not the same......The place is never open in the day for the people to use.

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

Whenever I think of Old Comrades Associations, the 48th Club on Church comes to mind. It was a swell place. 
Likewise, there was the Navy Club. I remember going there with my father when it was on Hayden. But, it looks like they moved too. They were there for 70 years. They are building a condo on the site. Going to be over 80 stories.:
http://www.1bloor.com/
Moving the club to Woodbine and Gerrard! Gimme a friggin break.


----------



## the 48th regulator

mariomike said:
			
		

> Whenever I think of Old Comrades Associations, the 48th Club on Church comes to mind. It was a swell place.
> Likewise, there was the Navy Club. I remember going there with my father when it was on Hayden. But, it looks like they moved too. They were there for 70 years.
> To Woodbine and Gerrard! Gimme a friggin break.



Now the Naval Club was the best.  We used to make that our last stop on Levee, and we had a hoot!

dileas

tess


----------



## Eye In The Sky

sheikyerbouti said:
			
		

> With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).



Perhaps it is the "never-have's" in Legion attire that need to choose to recognize the CF, its members and THEIR contribution to the fabric of Canadian society?  

 :2c:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

As the post is about a Legion in PEI, and that being my old stompin' grounds...from growing up there...IMO most Legions in PEI have very little to do with what they were original brought into being for.  There just aren't former serving members in the little places like O'leary, Tignish, Souris, etc in any amount of numbers.

When I was with the PEIR in Summerside, we *always* had, and as I understand, continue to have, a strong relationship between The Regiment and the Legion.  And not only on Nov 11th.

Nov 11th was of course, the day most Legions would see folks in CF uniforms, atleast in Prince County, and we were always welcome there.  Typically, we would provide troops for 3 parades in the S'side area (S'side, Travellers Rest and finally St Eleanors).  The troops standing vigil those days, typically cold wet and grey would rarely go long without a refreshment bought for them at the Miscouche or Summerside Legions, the RCAF Wing in town, or the Lions Club in old St Eleanors.  

Aside from that, B Sqn was ( and likely still is ) hosting an annual "breakfast under canvas" event each summer, where the Sqn mbrs who aren't away on Cl Bs would set up some mod tents, and cook up a 'field breakfast' for the vets/Legion members.  I'd always be tasked out somewhere and missed them but the guys who did them loved doing them.  

The Regimental Association has hosted Mess Dinners, and I believe the Summerside Legion was the venue for atleast one of them.  The one Association Mess Dinner I had the privilege of being V-PMC for, we had invited mbrs of the Summerside Branch, several of which attended.  

B Sqn also used to have its own Sqn Christmas Dinner/Party each year following the Men's Dinner, again Legion members were invited and attended this as well.

Summerside also had an airbase a stones throw away for many years (RCAF Station, then CFB Summerside), and I believe many of the zoomies that retired in Summerside went on to become Ordinary members (like my dad did).  

Perhaps back home, we are just lucky to have a good relationship between whats left of a CF presence in the area (now basically a Troop of D Sqn, PEIR at the old Supply building on the base), based on a decades of a good Legion/CF relationship and a few key people who were members of both B Sqn and the Legion in Summerside.

But if it can work there...it can work elsewhere too.

~Parva Sub Ingenti~


----------



## Brasidas

sheikyerbouti said:
			
		

> With all due respect to the Milnet community, I do not wish to spark some variation on this age old pissing match but when it comes to ther RCL, I stand fast as a staunch proponent of their activities (be they nation-wide or community based).



Thanks for offering your perspective.



> In the interest of spreading the goodwill of the RCL, I would invite the CF (active and retired) to examine their relationships with their local branches. From my perspective, the main reason why you guys (and gals) trash the RCl is because you no longer participate in the activities that we conduct on a regular basis.



And which activities would those be? Going to the Legion bar to listen to stories from WW2 and Korea vets that aren't there any more? I did some of that ten years ago. I don't see a point in going to the Legion as a place to chill out when there's a perfectly good Junior Ranks Club with people I relate a hell of a lot more to, much closer.

I took a look at the Edmonton-Kingsway branch website, and the events calendar reads off nothing of interest to me.



> In the Vancouver region, the participation of the CF is non-existent apart from some individuals and cadet organizations. I find this particularily offensive when we are commemorating your services, yet your chain of command sees no reason to take part. There is always more to Remembrance than November 11th, yet you will be hard pressed to see anyone in CF dress take part in Vancouver unless they are collecting a paycheque.



And what exactly do you expect from them?

For current service personnel, iirc, all that's in Vancouver is a handful of personnel at the CFRC and a couple reserve units. You're surprised that they draw a paycheque? The only way it works is for the unit to coordinate their deployment to a given parade, and that's only legal if they're on the clock. Somebody drops on parade, they can get hurt. It's a liability issue.

For veteran personnel, such as my father, I don't see a need for you to question why they don't put on DEU's or Legion regalia and step in front of the crowd.  My father never fit in with the crowd of WW2 or Korea vets and feels no need to be in front of the parade.

If the Legion wants to put non-vets out front, fine. I see a bunch of Knights of Columbus at West Ed, ok.  I've never said anything disrespectful about either group's attendance.



> As with any long term organization, the RCL is undergoing a rationalization of their functions and in the Lower Mainland and I would hazard the opinion that we are on the right track.
> 
> We are:
> building new branches (PoCo, Burnaby, Port Moody, Steveston,etc.)
> Housing more veterans (at affordable rates) in well kept properties (New Chelsea society)
> offering rehab facilities to those in need of longer term care (Winch House, Vancouver)
> supporting youth Track and Field and Cadet corps.
> continuing scholarships and bursaries
> Maintaining Remembrance duties and Memorials (new Vancouver Cenotaph, updates to New Westminster)
> sponsoring community events (parades, Canada day, etc.)



I wouldn't know.



> While the membership picture is not rosy across the country, it is up to the individual branches to make themselves relevant to todays modern Veterans and I would argue that the major obstacle to this modernization would be the almost complete lack of interest from todays Vets. Numbering somewhere near 40, 000+ individuals, the complement of Afg. veterans is sufficient to make a dramatic impact on the RCL and its' governance but yet you choose not to participate. (new blood brings new ideas)



I'd agree with other  posters here.

Why should I be interested in trying to actively reform a RCL Branch to suit me, instead of an organization ostensibly dedicated to serving veterans seeking out how to suit my needs. I don't fit. My friends and family who are ex-CF don't fit. Ergo, we do something else.



> With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, *it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).*



That last sentence grates the hell out of me. The Legion isn't without purpose, but it's got a dwindling purpose in my opinion. The care of aging vets is going by the wayside as they die off. The social venue provided for the same is important in staving off senility. But the dismissal of the fact that it's irrelevant to more recent vets, placing responsibility for that solely upon their shoulders, and expounding upon your "contribution to the fabric of Canadian society" despite our apparent lack of recognition is insulting.

It's not that the Legion hasn't done some good things, but when you're saying that we're just too dense to be a part of it (or to not be awed by its glory), it just maybe, maybe possible that you're off-base. A little bit.


----------



## pbi

I was wondering when this thread would get to this debate...
​After over three decades of service, I'm of two minds about the Legion. On the one hand, I gave up my membership over a decade ago, for two reasons. First, I got sick and tired of the endless attitude from WWII and Korea vets towards those of us serving in those days. It was quite clear that we were second class citizens in their minds, even though most of them had little accurate information about what the Army was actually doing, what ROEs actually were vice BS impressions, etc. No wonder so few people of my (or later) generation of soldiers bothered joining.

Second, I just didn't find anything socially attractive about the place. I understand the Legion fills a social need for some people, but nothing that they were doing really appealed to me (or my wife) very much. Not to mention that, very unfortunately, the Legions at that time seemed to be the refuge for a bunch of very pissed off, racist, anti-everything folks. Hopefully that has changed, but I wouldn't know because I don't go there anymore.


On the other hand, you can't deny that since it was created, the Legion has served a very good purpose, and has done many excellent things in hundreds of communities. In many small places, the Legion was just about the only true social centre. From what I can see, the Legion continues to do these good works. Hopefully it will be able to help with the latest generation of young soldiers who have come home from war damaged in body and mind: there is lots to be done, and the Govt isn't going to do it all.

The problem I have noticed with the Legion is that it rested on its laurels. It survived on two big "pulses" of Canadian veterans, following the two World Wars. Very few of these people were pre-war soldiers, and most did not remain in the Army after the war. They needed the kind of support structures that we take for granted in a professional Regular Army, but which were generallly not available to civilians: the Legion did a great job of filling these needs.

The Legion got a third, much smaller "pulse" after Korea, but following that there was only a constant trickle of people leaving te peacetime Regular Force (assuming that they wanted to join the Legion) The gap gradually widened between the aging Legion members and the serving soldiers (and to a certain extent perhaps even between the Legion and society at large). The interst in joining just faded away. My impression is that the Legion has realized this trend much too late: demographics are now against it, unless it continues to pursue the practice of enrolling people who never served a day in uniform in their lives, but just want to belong to something. I have a hard time imagining a mass movement by today's soldiers to join the Legion.

Cheers


----------



## SeanNewman

pbi said:
			
		

> I have a hard time imagining a mass movement by today's soldiers to join the Legion.



Not unless they start hosting sportbike stunt competitions and Rockband / Modern Warfare 2 LAN tournaments on Playstation3.

That is sort of tongue-in-cheek, but not really.  It's to prove your point even more that there is now such a massive culture gap between the Legion and 20-year-old soldiers that making that shift to get a "pulse" of Afghan vets in there would be next to impossible.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Not unless they start hosting sportbike stunt competitions and Raockband / Modern Warfare 2 LAN tournaments on PS3.
> 
> That is sort of tongue-in-cheek, but not really.  It's to prove your point even more that there is now such a massive culture gap between the Legion and 20-year-old soldiers that making that shift to get a "pulse" of Afghan vets in there would be next to impossible.



This alone is why I don't believe the legion will ever come to represent current serving soldiers, the culture gap is just too big.  I could never imagine going to a legion nowadays, to play what Darts... get real

The real issue that I have with the legion, I had been in my local legion back home before (Bathurst NB) and all I saw in there night after night were the local drunks and skids.  There were never any veterans or people who I wouldn't mind actually talking to, just the local drunk coming to get his fix of Golden Wedding for the night.

I am sure this isn't what all legions are like but in my hometown that was the experience I got.


----------



## kratz

I have followed the site guidelines and resisted posting for four days in reply to sheikyerbouti's inflammatory post.

I have been a regular member of the RCL for 9 years now, paid my dues and that is about it. I echo most of what has been previously posted. Why I am going to a place that is out of touch with the current generation? One of the few reasons that I continue to pay my dues to the legion IS out of respect for our past veterans, and a small hope there may be a place for our current ones if they find they need a place to gather in later years.

It more polite to say that I must end my post here.  :nod:


----------



## mariomike

Stymiest said:
			
		

> I could never imagine going to a legion nowadays, to play what Darts... get real



My wife is a member of the inter-city dart league. It's not affiliated with the RCL.
For them, it's not about going to a legion ( RCL, ANAF, Canadian Corps ). They rent the legion banquet halls, and run their own snack bars ( which are separate from the club-rooms ) for their tournaments. 
For championships, they set up their boards in hotel banquet halls.  
Like bowling leagues, you have to go where the facilities are.   

There is talk of making darts an Olympic sport in 2012:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jan/04/sport.gdnsport3


----------



## dangerboy

Mariomike, no offense but you are a bit older than most of the current generation of soldiers.  The majority of 20-30 year old troops back from Afghanistan do not go to a legion to play darts, cribbage etc.  It just does not interest them.


----------



## the 48th regulator

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Mariomike, no offense but you are a bit older than most of the current generation of soldiers.  The majority of 20-30 year old troops back from Afghanistan do not go to a legion to play darts, cribbage etc.  It just does not interest them.



If they were smart, specifically ones closer to a base, they could offer a live band night.  Canvasing to see, if any of the local troops have put together their own bands, and let them play there.  If not, get local bands in.

Turn the Legion, into a more pubby, modern joint, will definitely boost their attendance.

Modernizing the look, in that they get away from the '70's linoleum floor, wood paneling look.  Updated pictures and themes on the walls.  A fancier bar...etc etc

You can still keep the darts and cribbage, as a lot of pubs in Toronto are seeing a resurgence of these things, but they offer a lot more in a way of entertainment.

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Mariomike, no offense but you are a bit older than most of the current generation of soldiers.  The majority of 20-30 year old troops back from Afghanistan do not go to a legion to play darts, cribbage etc.  It just does not interest them.



No offence taken, Dangerboy. The birthday candles are now starting to cost more than the cake!  ;D

The league is not affiliated with the legion. Likewise, the legion is not affiliated with the league. 
The league plays in the banquet room, with their own snack bar. Separate from the club room.

I'm not a member of the league, but their average age - from what I have seen over the years - is in their thirties.


----------



## SeanNewman

48th,

I agree with your intent but not your SoM; even live bands might miss the mark for < 30.

Any Legion decision makers out there, I'm telling you: Playstation 3 tournaments of Rockband, Gran Turismo 5 (due out soon), and COD Modern Warfare...I'm givin' ya pearls, here!


----------



## mariomike

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Modernizing the look, in that they get away from the '70's linoleum floor, wood paneling look.  Updated pictures and themes on the walls.  A fancier bar...etc etc



I love my RCL branch exactly the way it is. It was built in 1927. 
Everything is changing so fast these days.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> 48th,
> 
> I agree with your intent but not your SoM; even live bands might miss the mark for < 30.
> 
> Any Legion decision makers out there, I'm telling you: Playstation 3 tournaments of Rockband, Gran Turismo 5 (due out soon), and COD Modern Warfare...I'm givin' ya pearls, here!




I agree,

But Nofriendo, will not be the only thing that can get them.  Most Troops have large screen T.V's and All the latest games, and can play them in their underwear in the shacks while they drink beers.

You need to offer something, that they can not have at home, and draw them out.  Go to any bar in Toronto, Ottawa etc, and the ones with live bands are packed with people of all ages.  Even the bands that can't hold a tune.

dileas

tess


----------



## SeanNewman

mariomike said:
			
		

> I love my RCL branch exactly the way it is. It was built in 1927.



You are bang on with the ambiance that a place offers.  There are several old messes in Canada that are beautiful and made with enough rich wood that it would cost millions today to build, but I think you can still have a vintage building and do modern things inside.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> I love my RCL branch exactly the way it is. It was built in 1927.



That's the whole problem, second and third-generation Legionaires who grew up in the Legions of the 1950s, 60s and 70s want it to be just the same forever - and then cannot understand why new generations of veterans don't want to turn back the clock to join a service club that's 50 years out of synch with their lives and expending energy to raise money to fund buildings and activity schedules that haven't changed in decades.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Everything is changing so fast these days.



Yes, and institutions that don't evolve die.


----------



## pbi

> Yes, and institutions that don't evolve die.



This is it, right here: it happened to Eaton's department stores (another Canadian icon), and it's happening to the Legion. 

Maybe the Legion can re-invent itself in time to avoid oblivion, but would "re-invention" be suppported by its current membership? Would it even look like the Royal Canadian Legion anymore?

Cheers


----------



## SeanNewman

Looking forward 20 years, I wonder what the hypothetical situation would be if the Legion did go under.

All those good initiatives and scholarships stopping.

Somehow the military will end up being the bad guy, and media will spin it like soldiers are taking money away from students (it won't be "thank you for the scholarships for the last 70 years", it will be "we made financial decisions based on counting on this money here and now you're taking that from us").


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perhaps the issue is that the legion has evolved.  It has seen branches evolve from being ex-service member's clubs providing a place for returned service members to connect with peers into local service clubs that emphasize support to community activities. Its membership has evolved away from a focus on ex-service members to a concentration of those who join to support local initiatives (although traditional Legion programs which focus on the aging veterans (like housing for vets) are maintained). Those Legions that have been described as social centres in small communities have become just that - which is not the same as an ex-service members' club - and that role is not dependent on them being Legion branches no matter how important it has become in those communities.


----------



## observor 69

Take a look at a RSL near Overwatch Downunder's home on Bribie Island.

I could easily see myself wanting to take advantage of what this club is offering.  

Check out the Facilities:

http://www.bribiersl.com.au/


----------



## mariomike

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Take a look at a RSL near Overwatch Downunder's home on Bribie Island.
> 
> I could easily see myself wanting to take advantage of what this club is offering.
> 
> Check out the Facilities:
> 
> http://www.bribiersl.com.au/



It looks good. I checked the demographics of Birbie:
"The median age of persons was 55 years, compared with 37 years for all of Australia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribie_Island#Demographics

Then I checked the eligibilty requirements for the Returned and Services League RSL of Australia:
http://www.rsl.org.au/
Similar to Ordinary membership in Canada:
http://www.legion.ca/Membership/who_e.cfm#canord

1977: "Bribie Island RSL constructed and opened its doors. Established as a proud tribute and memorial to all who fought in the wars. Membership was limited to returned service personnel. Entry restricted to returned service personnel and bona fide visitors."

1982: "The Bribie Island RSL Club changed its name to the “Bribie Island RSL & Citizens Memorial Club”. The Bribie RSL was the first club in Queensland to undertake this controversial but very significant change. Membership rights extended to the general public.":
http://www.bribiersl.com.au/default.asp?PageID=9&n=History

Q: Do I have to be a member of an ex-service organisation to become a member?
A: No. Members of the community are welcome to join as Club Members, which allows them to access the benefits of regular Club membership.:
http://www.bribiersl.com.au/default.asp?PageID=30&n=FAQs+26+Answers

It looks like a nice club. But, where does that leave the young veteran?


----------



## 1feral1

The RSL organisation,and RSL clubs are two different creatures. The sub-branch is manned by former ADF pers, and the club is magaged by mainly business people to ensure a proper run place.

All RSL clubs hve a sub-branch, where Vets can access everything they need from councilling, to Vet's services, to make claims for injuries, etc. See the membership details for the club, but membership to the RSL is for serving and former Defence Force members only.

Bribie has the highest population per capita in the country of Viet Nam Vets, along with this, with the ever expanding 'greater Brisbane' (being 65km from the city), the demographics are slowly changing, and a younger local population is emerging. The majority of working people commute, and many ADF pers live here, and choose to retire here. Also many retirees of the the 70's and 80's, who are WW2 and Korea vets live here, as the island has alawys been a retrement mecca.

As for the younger Vets, like myself, since the club propsers the way it does, subsidied meals for members, cheaper drinks, and a vast variety of entertainment, along with the 'pokies' (VLT's) makes it a truly vibraint, bright, profitable place, full of people to meet and socialise (of all ages).


Here is a few pics of the club I took yesterday. Not bad for a population of around 16,000. Most evenings, especially weekends, its busy like this, and a hub of social activity and meeting place for all ages.

Today's RSLs are evidence of a changing time, and will always be around. Canada should learn from it's sister organisation.

Here is a link to the housing estate I live on, still advancing and developing, and a great place, all to encourage new younger families. http://www.pacificharbour.com.au/ Also this place http://www.pacificharbourgolf.com.au/main_golf.php

Cheers,

OWDU


----------



## jollyjacktar

That sure as  hell is not the Legion of my memory from MacLeod.  While is does to my eyes look like a service club, it is a modern service club.  Clean, trendy and not a outdated place for soaks and dart players.  I could see myself darkening the door way there.  (Unlike what is available for me here on the Eastern Shore.  Nice folks I am sure, but they won't see me for dust)  The Legion of my memory does not appeal to me.


----------



## 1feral1

To top it off, yesterday, the BI RSL was a MILF's heaven, so many single chicks and yes, cougars, on the prowl. A :warstory: that deserves to be told, truly, ha!

Cheers,

OWDU


----------



## kratz

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Gee another Legion bashing thread and it's not even Nov 11th yet. I'm with Recce, Mr. O'Leary, OWDU and Pet on this and yeah for the record I'm an ordinary member too.
> 
> *Edit* : Clipped the rest of your post for brevity.



With OWDU's repost from earlier legion threads in response to sheikyerbouti's self appointed posting history of defending Vancouver's RCL, this thread has run it's course IMO.


----------



## 1feral1

Rehashed perhaps, but not reposted. I find the thread very informative to others including myself, and if anything helps the failing pathetic Legion, why not? Healthy input is simply that.

If the RCL wishes recover, ratehr than die a slow death, the organisation needs to learn from similar Veteran's organisations who seen the fall coming years ago.

Opinions are like AH's, we all got them, but if you don't think this debate is valid, thats fair enough.

OWDU


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> If they were smart, specifically ones closer to a base, they could offer a live band night.  Canvasing to see, if any of the local troops have put together their own bands, and let them play there.  If not, get local bands in.
> 
> Turn the Legion, into a more pubby, modern joint, will definitely boost their attendance.
> 
> Modernizing the look, in that they get away from the '70's linoleum floor, wood paneling look.  Updated pictures and themes on the walls.  A fancier bar...etc etc
> 
> You can still keep the darts and cribbage, as a lot of pubs in Toronto are seeing a resurgence of these things, but they offer a lot more in a way of entertainment.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



I agree with this, If legions would modernize their facilities, get some good pub food, maybe play some sports on the tele I would consider going.

IPetamocto is right though PS3, XBox that is the crap that will draw todays young soldiers to the legion.  I would even add throwing Ultimate Fighting Championship for free that would draw people in droves.  The Beer sales would more then make up for the price of airing the event.


----------



## ModlrMike

Stymiest said:
			
		

> I agree with this, If legions would modernize their facilities, get some good pub food, maybe play some sports on the tele I would consider going.



So true. It's a well accepted business  practice that you keep abreast of your competition. The Legion needs to determine what the competition offers that attracts their customers, and offer those activities. I'm with OWDU, I think the Legion, through modernization, can become the social focus of the community and still provide the services to veterans that it always did.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> To top it off, yesterday, the BI RSL was a MILF's heaven, so many single chicks and yes, cougars, on the prowl. A :warstory: that deserves to be told, truly, ha!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> OWDU





Must.... Move..... Down Under....... Find.... Cougars.......


----------



## mariomike

In today's Sun on the subject:
"Legions losing battle with time:
Dwindling membership sounding taps for branches":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/05/01/13791476.html

( Some interesting comments from readers in the story. )


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> In today's Sun on the subject:
> "Legions losing battle with time:
> Dwindling membership sounding taps for branches":
> http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/05/01/13791476.html
> 
> ( Some interesting comments from readers in the story. )



In my opinion, the real story is in reading between the lines:



> Not just a club for veterans and drinking, he said, “they are the centre of many communities,” hosting weddings, banquets and other events.



A role they obviously haven't been capable of maintaining, the fact of failing Legion halls dispels the claim.



> Legions have some autonomy but about 20 branch presidents were dumped last year for resisting provincial rules and recommended changes.



It has been said above, institutions that refuse to change die.



> The defunct Royal York branch was a hub for veterans and their families, but they dwindled due to age, “too much competition from halls,” and more restaurants with liquor licences, Strader said.



So, restaurants with liquor licenses are to blame.    :



> Unlike older members who dressed for volunteer work, younger associates plus peacekeeping veterans “don’t like putting on uniforms,” McDonald said. “It’s a different time.”



And we wouldn't want to accept _change_ to attract new generations of members.



> The worst blow, however, was the province’s smoking ban, she said. “Most of the guys smoked during the war and many said if they couldn’t do that at the legion while having a drink, they wouldn’t come.



No, wait, maybe it wasn't the restaurants, it was that damn government for not letting people work on their lung cancer that did it.  And that built-up smoky nicotine residue over painted cinder block walls and wood paneling was always such a delightful ambiance.    :

Refusing to change and adapt is not a survival strategy. Sadly, it seems the only people who can't grasp that are the ones running the Royal Canadian Legion


----------



## the 48th regulator

Frig me,

This legion has found a brilliant solution!!  They will have us running in droves to sign up!



*No-headgear policy may become thing of the past*

By JASON HALSTEAD, Winnipeg Sun


It’s a sure sign that legions are doing all they can to survive when they might even consider changing their strict no-headgear policy to accommodate young people.

If you’ve ever worn a hat into a Royal Canadian Legion, you are likely well aware of the stricly-enforced rule that pays homage to the Queen.

Al Coote, first vice-president of the St. James legion branch, said it could be a bitter pill for older members but one that would signal a nod to the younger crowd.

“They want to wear their sunglasses and hats but they can’t as the rules state,” said the 68-year-old former member of the Royal Canadian Navy. “Eventually we may have to change that. Some of the old guard wouldn’t like to see it happen.”

With poker chips replacing bingo cards, karaoke replacing live bands and VLTs pushing out shuffleboard, Coote said he’s well aware of the changing face of the legion.

“There’s not too many of the oldtimers left,” he said. “The younger people are taking over and to keep them in here we may have to change the rules somewhat.”

St. James legion ladies auxiliary member Lorna Main said it’s been difficult finding younger women to take up the mantle.

“The younger generation will be taking over, if they want it,” she said. “We can’t get any young ladies any more.”

Coote also hopes to boost numbers of new veterans at his legion.

“Hopefully we can get them in here once they’re out of the service,” he said. “That’s the ultimate aim. There’s a few that come in, but not in great numbers.”

The St. James legion branch at 1755 Portage Ave. still has 4,600 members and is relatively strong, but Coote fears for other smaller branches.

“Eventually you’re going to have to see some of the smaller branches amalgamate,” he said.

_Copyright © 2010 Winnipeg Sun All Rights Reserved_



dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

Not that I have ever heard anyone claim that was the reason they haven't joined the Legion.

And five years too late for this embarrassing little episode?

http://korematsu.blogspot.com/2005/11/sikh-barred-entry-at-canadian-legion.html



> Tuesday, November 22, 2005
> 
> *Sikh Barred Entry at Canadian Legion Hall, Forcing Change to Out-of-Date Rule*
> 
> On November 18, 2005 the Brampton Guardian reported, "Royal Canadian Legion branches in Brampton have been forced to change an out-of-date rule, which discriminates against some Sikhs and Orthodox Jews.
> 
> Local veterans call it a tradition that they fiercely enforce-- no 'headgear' in the Legion clubroom. Head coverings must be removed out of respect for the fallen.
> 
> Branch 609 on Queen Street East enforced that rule on Remembrance Day, telling Ravinder Singh Dhaliwal, a 26-year-old Brampton university student, he was the only adult member of the community attending the service who was not allowed in the clubroom.
> 
> 'It was humiliating,' Dhaliwal said of how it made him felt to be singled out.
> 
> He was pulled aside and told by President Marie Hayden that 'headgear' was not allowed in the clubroom, including Dhaliwal's turban.
> 
> 'It's unfortunate, but it's nothing personal,' Hayden told The Guardian. 'It's a rule. I wasn't disrespectful. I was very polite.'
> 
> Members of the Legion, a private club, had voted for that rule, she said, and she was just enforcing it...
> 
> Poulin and Ontario Command Executive Director Marlene Lambros told The Guardian the 'no headgear' rule was modified eight years ago when all branches across the nation were notified in writing that religious headdress is an exception to the rule.
> 
> The presidents of Brampton's branches-- 609 and 15-- both say they were unaware of the change in policy at the upper tier. They said the last they had heard on the issue was in the early 1990s and the decision was left up to the local branches."



I'm sure we have a thread of two around here somewhere on the issue.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hey,

This Legion stole my idea!!!  This is the wave of the future;

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/legion/stories/2010/04/30/13778436.html

Seems the Calgary Sun did an excellent series on the Legion.

dileas

tess


----------



## SeanNewman

I always thought the no headwear rule was because it was a mess-type atmosphere, but I didn't know why.  Apparently from the above it's as a respect to the Queen, but as a Pte no Sgts ever told me that when I walked into the mess; they just yelled at me to take my beret off.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I always thought the no headwear rule was because it was a mess-type atmosphere, but I didn't know why.  Apparently from the above it's as a respect to the Queen, but as a Pte no Sgts ever told me that when I walked into the mess; they just yelled at me to take my beret off.




I was told, well before entering a mess.

I think the Sgt. Yelled at you because you walked into the wrong mess, not because of your head dress being on.... 

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

The Legion offerred a quiet, dark bar to unwind in on your way home from work. Sort of like a buffer zone. With the kind of pictures I like up on the walls.  
Then, wash up, change your clothes and drive out to the Airport strip. Go up the elevator to the lounge. Enjoy your cigarette and drink in peace and quiet. Glass all around. You could see the city lights and watch the planes coming in. They were always having dances out there in the hotel ballrooms. 
Like the Legion, most of those places have fallen on hard times. Turned them into sports bars. There is also competition from 24/7 slot machines. 

Regarding men taking their hats off. I remove mine as a mark of respect when entering any dwelling. Or, any joint where the chairs are not bolted to the floor. That includes a Legion. Sunglasses come off too. 
Always in the presence of a woman. 
These days, that sort of thing is like the Cole Porter song, "Anything Goes!"


----------



## SeanNewman

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> ...you walked into the wrong mess, not because of your head dress being on...



Understood that you were joking, but some of my drunkest moments ever were in the basement of a Reserve mess as a ______ year-old recent QL3 graduate.

I left the age blank because I joined as soon as I was able to, and we all know how long it takes to get QL3 qualified in the Mo.  Can't be getting that unit in trouble!


----------



## mariomike

I thought everybody was old enough to have a beer, Petamocto!


----------



## 1feral1

Here, all head dress is prohibited in all RSLs, even if religious. Everyone listens and obeys the regulations, all without a hitch, and the RSL clubs continiue to thrive.  If the RCL thinks that relaxing their hat regs is going to change things, we'll they are simply fooling themselves.  I view the RCL as a 21st century Titanic, all too little, too late. Who's fault? Their fault in a mix of arrogance, ignorance, denial, and plain blind stupidity for not seeing the writing on the wall 30 years ago.

OWDU


----------



## SeanNewman

I think the biggest irony is that Canada bends over backwards to accommodate everyone (re: minorities/religions, etc) but it is the US who is starting the Merry Christmas = Happy Holidays trend.  Thank god/allah that hasn't started here yet.

Of all the things that these old Veterans need before they die, it's not another kick in the balls.  If the WW2 guys are going to complain about hats in the mess, why in the hell would we change that rule while they are still alive to see it?  That's pretty disrespectful, at least wait another 5-10 years.


----------



## mariomike

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I think the biggest irony is that Canada bends over backwards to accommodate everyone (re: minorities/religions, etc) but it is the US who is starting the Merry Christmas = Happy Holidays trend.  Thank god/allah that hasn't started here yet.



I like what Ben Stein had to say about respect for others:
http://www.benstein.com/121805xmas.html


----------



## SeanNewman

That is hilarious!

"It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto."


----------



## mariomike

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> mario mike (if i remeber corectly yes there
> was a cf association before the rcl) will
> rescope that...



British Empire Services League B.E.S.L. is still carved in stone, over the front entrance, on some of the original buildings, such as Branch 46 Swansea. 

1949 photo caption: "Swansea branch of the Canadian Legion which meets here, has decided to apply for a license to sell beer, according to President C.E. Wright. He said members were 'driven to it by attitude of villagers.' "   
The report says the Vice President "resigned in protest". It goes on to say that the Branch had contacted over 20 firms. But, they refused to give the Legion a mortgage. They could only get a mortgage on the condition that a beer licence was applied for.
The Reeve of Swansea said council was against the Legion having a beer licence.  It is an interesting article about post-war veterans and the community.

Sometime after the attached photo was taken, a Cenotaph was placed out front. Other than that, I think the inside and outside remain very true to original. 

Attached between the two photos is a pdf of a 1949 story in the Star about Branch 46 ( constructed as a BESL in 1927 ) trying to get a licence to sell beer in Swansea.  Swansea - High Park voted to remain dry until 10 Nov 1997. The nearby Junction would have to wait until late 2000 to go wet. The Branch however was licenced.


----------



## wildman0101

Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League was founded in 1921 as the British Empire Services League by Field Marshal Earl Haig and Field Marshal Jan Smuts in order to link together ex-service organizations from throughout the British Empire. It was renamed the British Commonwealth Ex-Services League (BCEL) in 1958 and then the Commonwealth Ex-Services League (CEL) in 2002. The appellation "Royal" was granted by royal assent in 2003. The RCEL has 57 member organizations from 47 Commonwealth and former Commonwealth nations.

The RCEL's affiliates include:

The Royal Canadian Legion (founded as the Canadian Legion of the British Empire Services League) 
Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association 
Returned and Services League of Australia 
The Royal British Legion 
Indian Ex-Services League 
[edit] External links
Royal Commonwealth Ex-Services League 
RCEL: For Service And Honour by Jennifer Morse published in Legion Magazine, November 1, 2008. 
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commonwealth_Ex-Services_League"
Categories: Veterans' organizations | Commonwealth Family | Military veterans' affairs in the United Kingdom


----------



## wildman0101

waiting sheik


----------



## Michael OLeary

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> waiting sheik



sheikyerbouti has not been logged in since *10:22 p.m. on 20 April 20, 2010*.  You may have to be patient if you want a response.


----------



## pbi

> pbi---- rcl racist anti-everything(explain)
> (expand) id like to hear your explanation
> for that comment... really i would as im
> german descent(canadian) scot-descent
> (canadian)or every thing else racist/anti-
> everything) in other words puppy put up
> and explain that comment or shut the
> f*** up... you got a prob with that pvt
> me...



Wildman: thanks for calling me a puppy: makes me feel young again. It's been a while since I've been inside a Legion as a member: the tone of your post reminded me why it'll probably be quite a long while before I'm ever in one again.

Cheers


----------



## 57Chevy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Hopefully, it doesn't end up on E-Bay. There was a similar story about items in a private museum being auctioned off on the Net.



I pretty sure this is the story you were referring to:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/780267--veterans-families-angry-over-bid-to-sell-wartime-artifacts?bn=1

Before someone should have the idea of donating artifacts, they should first consider the
possible end result of where they are making that donation. Military musuems are probably
the best place to donate items as they are properly catalogued and cared for.

The legion in my area is occupied by the staff of the federal penitentiary. I made application to that branch a few years ago and 
never recieved a reply from them. I have not gone back.
A lot of ex-military personnel, being relatively young go right into a second career and are therefor preoccupied with their new life.
Some even consider their miltary life as "in my past".
Perhaps as they grow older they will take a liking to playing cribbage, shuffleboard, darts, etc, and reconnecting with old comrads.
As far as I'm concerned, there will always be a place for the legion in our society.
Thanks for reading me.


----------



## DirtyDog

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Cripes, we must be lucky here in a little town south of Ottawa. Mind you, we experienced troops working in our area during the ice storm, so that may have had an effect on local attitudes. The fact that we are a bedroom community for Ottawa and have a lot of members from all three services (and the ski team) living here does not hurt. We also lost a local lad in Afghanistan and his picture is on the wall in the Legion Hall. Another local was wounded a few tours back and there is at least soldier from here in country now. The local branch requests a contingent from Petawawa for each Remembrance Day and hosts them after the parade. Last year I spent a fair amount of time with the OC and CSM of a company from 3 RCR, who brought their troops down. Both made a point of saying how much they enjoyed coming to our town. While I am not a member of the legion, I support many of their events and have not experienced any disdain towards those still serving. Or maybe I am just too thick to notice.


Not sure if we're speaking of the same place, but I plan on joining when I get back home.  I never wanted to join until becoming a veteren but spent a fair bit of time under it's roof.  It may not be the hot spot for the kids but it's definitely the social hall of the community and I could not even began to count how many stags, wedding receptions, banquets, wakes, birthday/anniversary, and fund raisers I have attended there.


----------



## Michael OLeary

I had known of this story for some years, but without a reference had refrained from posting any comments on it.

Thanks to a member of another forum I frequent, it is available to me now and fitting for this thread on closing Legions. 



> *Military collectors prove their medal *
> Tue, May 4, 2004
> 
> By EARL McRAE, Ottawa Sun
> 
> *"It made me want to cry," says Andrew Driega, remembering. "It was terrible." He shakes his head morosely. "He came in and said they didn't want any vultures profiting off the death of soldiers. I wanted to say 'You don't understand, buddy, you don't get it -- the ones who'd have bought them are serious collectors and they'd have kept them, protected them, and cherished them.' "
> 
> And then, wryly: "If they hadn't destroyed them, they probably could have paid off the debt and saved their legion."
> 
> Andrew Driega, 40, is sitting at a desk behind a long glass showcase in his shop on Richmond Rd. It's called Ashbrook Coins, Stamps, Antiques, and Collectibles. He buys and he sells.
> 
> The Royal Canadian Legion branch was in the Ottawa Valley. Behind glass on one of its walls were countless sterling silver crosses -- the Canadian Memorial Cross -- awarded to the mothers or next of kin of Canada's soldiers killed in war. The many crosses had been donated down through the years to this particular legion branch for proud display. The branch hit hard times, and went bankrupt.
> 
> "He had them all in a bag," says Driega. "Someone with the legion had deliberately taken a hammer to them and destroyed them beyond recognition. They were all mangled. He wanted to sell them to me for the value of the junk silver content. They weren't crosses anymore. I gave him about $2 for each of them. Had they not been destroyed, he'd have got about $100 for each of them." *
> 
> People come into Driega's shop every day selling and buying military medals that once decorated the uniforms of soldiers who served in war, some of those soldiers having been members of the very families selling them and, in extremely rare cases, veterans themselves have come in with medals to sell they'd once so honourably earned.
> 
> Driega is required by law -- "In case the police learn they'd been stolen" -- to immediately report all of his purchases to the police and to hold the medals for a month before officially releasing them to buyers.
> 
> It hasn't happened often, says Driega, but he has purchased, and sold, service medals brought in by current Canadian soldiers, those who've served in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Cyprus, the Gulf.
> 
> 'A QUICK 100 BUCKS'
> 
> "I guess they think it's a good way for them to make a quick 100 bucks," says Driega. "Especially when they know the military, just one time, allows them a replacement medal for free. But, since they report to the military that their medal was lost or stolen, they have to be careful they don't get discovered."
> Driega picks up his medals catalogue.
> 
> "Everything I sell walks through the door. There's so much demand for medals, it's insane, especially those from World War I and earlier. There are a lot of collectors of militaria out there. They're sold literally within hours of me buying them, especially the high-end ones, the ones for bravery in combat."
> 
> These would include the Military Medal, the Military Cross, the Distinguished Conduct Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal, the Distinguished Flying Cross. Driega, in his more than two decades of business, has had them all brought in off the street to be sold to him, his resale price ranging from $3,500 (DCM, DSM) to $500 (MM, World War I).
> 
> He has never had anyone come selling the world's most prestigious military medal of them all for valour -- the Victoria Cross. "That one," he says, checking in his catalogue, "goes for a minimum $100,000." He smiles. "Some I will entertain price negotiations, others I won't."
> 
> Other medals he sells are regular campaign and service medals, such as that before him on his desk, the Afghanistan Medal, from the second Afghan war of 1878-1880 that he bought for $300 from a descendant of a British soldier in that theatre, and will likely sell for $450.
> 
> But what kind of person is it, I ask, who'd want to get rid of such treasured symbols of deserved glory; does it not bespeak extreme financial hardship on the part of the seller, or cold, callous, insensitivity, regardless of some so-called "need" for money?
> 
> NO 'ATTACHMENT'
> 
> "It's almost always someone who has been left them, or, say, found them in a box," says Driega. "Sometimes someone of this generation, a family member of the recipient but who has no emotional attachment to them, no connection, and they don't know what to do with them, but don't want to throw them away."
> 
> I tell Driega that I, personally, could never, no matter the circumstances, sell military medals earned by anyone in my family, no matter how far back.
> 
> "I couldn't either," he says.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Yep, way to go legion.  Finding ways to draw in the newer generation of Vets....



*Uphill struggle for vets*

By Bill KAUFMANN, Calgary Sun

Last Updated: July 8, 2010 11:33pm

It seemed a perfect match for both, particularly a large organization literally dying to get new blood into its increasingly sclerotic veins.

And it’s also a sad commentary on Canada’s misbegotten adventure in Afghanistan and the gaps left in its ex-warriors’ safety net.

Years after his life was altered by going to the rescue of Canadian soldiers hit by a U.S. aerial bomb in Afghanistan, one-time PPCLI Shaun Arntsen concluded that work wasn’t finished.

Back on civvy street, Arntsen figured taming other veterans’ Post Traumatic Stress Disorder demons that he, too carried since that fateful night could be done through wilderness bonding.

The dream was born as was a golden opportunity for a greying Royal Canadian Legion to bond with a younger generation of veterans.

Last year, the Legion — which supports many worthy charitable causes — stepped up with funding for the vision and scored a rare coup with the young IED dodgers.

Officials at one legion branch after another have been hard-pressed to point to any card-carrying Afghanistan returnees in their midst.

They’re the one breed of veteran whose numbers are too thin to merit an entry in the organization’s membership stats.

It wasn’t many days ago that Arnsten felt that shortcoming could be reversed, if the trend that brought him and fellow vet Marc D’Astous into the legion fold continued.

And the Outward Bound-affiliated pilot program had been active with ice climbing and hiking excursions in the Banff-Canmore area. 

But last week, local Legion officials terminated Arntsen’s leadership of the program, apparently with the agreement of Outward Bound.

This isn’t about Arntsen, “it’s about the veterans and we have a fall schedule,” says legion district President Daryl Jones.

But it’s a decision that’s drawn the ire of not only Arntsen but Afghan vets who say their doubts about the Legion’s relevance have only deepened.

It may not be an intentional attack on that younger generation of soldiers, but the symbolism of the move has the same effect, says Arntsen.

“It’s sad for me to see this — it’s got so much potential,” says Arnsten.

The Afghan vet said he’s been accused of creating the program to massage his ego and to assure himself a job, with helping fellow vets an afterthought.

Arntsen was offered the option of working as an unpaid volunteer, he added, something the third-generation soldier rightly refused.

“My grandfather who served in World War Two did a lot to set up the Legion in his part of Saskatchewan,” he says.

None of that matters; Arntsen says his overseers are replacing his leadership with civilians who lack the savvy and sensitivities vital in dealing with combat veterans that only their peers possess.

I’ve never attended any of these veterans’ outdoor excursions and can’t vouch for their quality, though Arntsen insists clients rate it highly.

It does raise wider questions over how our latest crop of veterans are perceived in a country with such an ambiguous view of the Afghan debacle.

Arntsen probably sees a symmetry in allies dropping bombs on him near Kandahar and figurative ones at home.

We’re nowhere near understanding or appreciating the complexities of PTSD and many of our broken veterans accuse the military of the same thing.

Now we’re seeing a squabble over how to help them.

Far sadder yet is that we’ve sentenced so many of our soldiers to mental trauma that’ll linger far beyond our forces’ Afghan departure, and maybe as long as the Taliban persist.

We can only hope our prime minister honours his vow to end the mission next year.

bill.kaufmann@sunmedia.ca 

Copyright © 2010 
Calgary Sun All Rights Reserved


----------



## debbiejohn1

As a military member who has retired as of last year, when I went to our local Legion here in Trenton, last year after being on parade, we were not met with open arms at all.  We couldn't even find a seat and didn't even know where we could get lunch as I was not familiar with this building. We felt very unwelcome and sad to say will not join.


----------



## SeanNewman

That author needs a kick in the junk for how he worded a few things.  Just a couple:

1. Afghanistan's misbegotten adventure?  Way to assist in actually pushing more people down the path of OSIs by implying that their mission was not worthy and that their citizens do not support what they are doing.

2. "IED Dodgers" in my opinion has a very negative connotation, linked to the "Draft Dodgers" who were anything but honourable.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Petamocto said:
			
		

> That author needs a kick in the junk for how he worded a few things.  Just a couple:
> 
> 1. Afghanistan's misbegotten adventure?  Way to assist in actually pushing more people down the path of OSIs by implying that their mission was not worthy and that their citizens do not support what they are doing.
> 
> 2. "IED Dodgers" in my opinion has a very negative connotation, linked to the "Draft Dodgers" who were anything but honourable.



I suspect he was trying to link it to "D-Day Dodgers" which has a positive, if convoluted, connotation; those soldiers who "dodged D-Day" were very busy fighting the enemy, as are those who are fighting the enemy while doing their best to dodge his IEDs.

And it's a very apropos connection for Pachino Day.


----------



## SeanNewman

Even "D Day Dodgers" has a negative connotation, though.

Yes the Italy, Pacific, Russia (etc) vets and some historians like us know full well that other battles were being fought in June 44, but the term is still an insult to suggest the _other _vets were avoiding the_ real_ fight.

It's just like me being a Bosnia Dodger for quitting the Reserves in 95.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Even "D Day Dodgers" has a negative connotation, though.



That may have been the intent when it was first used, but in being adopted by the soldiers it referred to, it became a point of pride that they were the Canadians fighting in Europe long before D-day.


----------



## SeanNewman

Ack and understood (Africa too, for some).


----------



## 57Chevy

D-Day Dodgers slide show video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXl_xzqIRgk

Other info and lyrics:
http://www.d-daydodgers.com/therealdodgers.htm


----------



## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> It's just like me being a Bosnia Dodger for quitting the Reserves in 95.



You lost me on that one....

dileas

tess


----------



## George Wallace

I think he missed the whole point with his statement.  Fighting in Italy and not in Normandy can not be compared to Peacekeeping in Bosnia and NOT Peacekeeping/serving in the Reserves.  Two things that are not even remotely comparable.


----------



## ArmyRick

Before we say peacekeeping expiriences are different than those who served in WWII, lets take a look at it. My expiriences in the Balkans was simple and straight forward. Easy cheesy for the most part with lots of PT time.

I won't mention names without permission of the individuals but I know of one officer, who was a reservist that blown up in an iltus driving over a land mine, his driver lost his legs.

I think we all know what Tess went through in '95 (being shot up several times is pretty much combat to me and I would assume rather traumatizing?). I know of another guy who had a chunk of his hand blown off.

Individual expiriences differ I guess. Think about that poster for Afghanistan with 2 pics, the one with some officers walking out of timmies and the other with grunts humping out in the AOR.

I recently became a legion member myself. For those with negative expiriences if you want to change it, join and by being a member we can start to remind the Legion why its there.

My opinion as usual, fire the rotten tomatoes at me if you don't agree.


----------



## George Wallace

ArmyRick

I agree with what you said, but I see you missed my point.  

D-Day Dodgers  were fighting in Italy well before they were fighting in Normandy.  There is no similarity in any way shape or form to the comparison being made of a person serving in Bosnia and  that of another person NOT serving due to their release from the Reserves.

In one case we are comparing people fighting on one front ( A ) as opposed to fighting on another front ( B ), where as the comparison was made of a recent "serving" in one theatre ( A ) as opposed to "not serving at all" ( n/a ).  There are no similarities to be made between the two.  Faulty logic.


----------



## SeanNewman

My Bosnia-dodger line was not in any way meant to compare that theatre/mission to anything, so much as I was making fun of myself.

Just like half the people I "work" with are work-dodgers.


----------



## ArmyRick

I am proud to be a work dodger!


----------



## the 48th regulator

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from _Inside Toronto_;

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/local/article/857500--legion-fighting-to-hold-on-to-its-history

*Legion fighting to hold on to its history*







Sandi Hilliard, manager of Coronation Branch 286 
of the Royal Canadian Legion on Irwin Road, shows off a 
photo of the original property where the current Legion 
exists. The Legion is looking forward to its 75th anniversary 
next year but is struggling financially. 
Staff photo/JEFF HAYWARD


JEFF HAYWARD

August 6, 2010

While the great world wars fade into history, the executives of a Royal Canadian Legion branch in north Etobicoke hope the facility doesn't fade as well.

"We as a legion are in very difficult times," said Brian Johnston, entertainment chairman for Coronation Branch 286 of the Royal Canadian Legion on Irwin Road. "So many legions have lost membership."

The Irwin Road branch is looking forward to its 75th anniversary next year, a huge milestone since its humble beginnings in 1936 using the Thistledown volunteer fire hall on the same property.

But while the legion has thrived throughout the years, it is now facing struggles, said Johnston. Once with around 2,000 members, that number has dwindled to about 400, due to "natural causes" and members moving away, he said.

On top of that, they were hit with an unexpected blow to their cash flow.

The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario paid the branch a visit in March and shut down its regular draws for members.

"There was a daily draw and weekly draw for members, not for the public," he said. "That's the money that helped pay our bills."

The branch also cannot run its "meat rolls" or 50/50 draws, he said, adding he was told a license for six months costs $572. "(And) we can only keep two per cent (of draw proceeds) ... do the math."

Despite being a fixture on Irwin Road for almost 75 years, some residents still aren't aware the legion is there he said.

To raise its profile, the branch is hosting its first community festival "with the major objective of building and instilling a much more vibrant spirit and stronger community," he noted.

The event is set for Saturday, Aug. 21 from 9 a.m. straight through to 1 a.m. A children's carnival will be offered from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., with a barbecue from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. and Tom Howell's fish fry ($12 per person) from 4 to 6 p.m. In addition, a community dance will be held with DJ entertainment from Silver Thread and live band Black Out. Admission is free.

"We wanted to let the community know we're here, we're not just a bar," said Sandi Hilliard, branch manager. "If we get one member to join that day, we've done our job."

Annual membership is $55 or $50 if bought prior to Nov. 30, said Hilliard.

"Many people have a clouded vision of the legion, they don't know all the good we do for the community," said Johnston.

Aside from charitable efforts, the legion has much to offer he said, including snooker and dart leagues, barbecues and even karaoke.

As the branch's long-time bar steward and resident entertainer Ted Geeves always makes laughter a priority.

"I get up there, I try to be Al Jolson," he said with a smile. "(The legion) is a nice place, it keeps people knowing what happens in this world, a chance to get together and have some fun."

Despite the current war in Afghanistan fresh in people's minds, membership doesn't seem to be spiking.

"The last couple of years, we've got some young people, or what I call young, in their 30s and 40s," noted Geeves.

Glancing over to a showcase full of war memorabilia, he added, "Sometimes teachers bring students here, they're in awe."

George Willson is a life member of 286, although he drives in from North York.

"There's no legion in the northwest end of North York," he said. "I've been a member here for over 30 years. This is the legion I had relatives in."

Some good news for branch 286 is that Etobicoke North MP, Dr. Kirsty Duncan, is a "huge" supporter.

"I grew up at the legion," she said. "My mother played in the legion pipe band."

Duncan added one of the reasons she ran for office is "because of what one veteran said to me. (He said) his generation didn't go to war for his own generation, he said they went for my mom's generation, for my generation ... and then he asked 'what will you and your friends do for the next generation?'"

The MP said she "will support the legion any way I can" including helping develop a fund raising strategy. She added she will also be in attendance at the Aug. 21 community festival.


----------



## John Nayduk

I may be chiming in a little late for this thread but I'll put in my two cents worth anyway.  
I have to agree with RECCE GUY, ET AL.  My experience here in Windsor, Ontario has been much the same as many of you.  The ruling class (and even some of the employees, read bartenders) of the branches here have looked at the U.N. services medals almost with disdain.  I had a bartender once tell me that I wasn't a real vet because I only did U.N. missions.  One occasion, at a different RCL branch, happened during Remembrance Day.  We had gone to a RCL branch on the east side of town and there was a dinner going on.  I asked if I could stand by the bar, in the shadows and listen to the guest speaker talk about duty and honour.  The bartender told me that I wasn't a real vet so I couldn't stand there and listen.  Fine, I left, never to cross that threshold again.  I felt that I'd be better off joining as an associate because I have many relatives who fought during both World Wars but I felt that my service should count.
Anyone who doubts the unwelcome feeling that new vets who served Canada get at the RCL (unless you're somehow connected to a World War 2 vet), ask yourself why the Korea vets, Peacekeeping vets, Viet Nam vets, etc felt that they had to form their own associations.  In the States the VFW halls welcome all vets, re guardless of the war.  Too bad the RCL can't learn from them.


----------



## ArmyRick

That is a shame. Did this bar tender have service time himself?

People have died or been killed on UN and NATO peacekeeping/Peace Support missions. Maybe not in the numbers of WW2 but still there were casualties. I guess they don't count because they were not killed in WW2 or Korea.

What an a**


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_, is an article that brings together some thoughts that have been expressed in several threads here:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/10/legion-halls-close-across-country-as-membership-dwindles/


> Legion halls close across country as membership dwindles
> 
> Tamsin McMahon
> 
> Nov 10, 2011
> 
> The annual Nov. 11 parade down to the cenotaph Friday will be the last Remembrance Day for the Royal Canadian Legion in Kimberley, B.C.
> 
> After years of declining enrollment and mounting costs, it shut its canteen last year. The hall was sold off in February. By September, unable to muster more than a few volunteers interested in organizing a picnic, members voted to surrender its charter.
> 
> 
> The annual poppy fund will be put into a trust for local veterans. The wartime memorabilia that has lined the legion’s walls will be donated to a nearby heritage museum, closing the doors on an institution that had served the city’s military community since 1926.
> 
> “It’s just sad to see it get to this point,” said legion president Mike Yanosik, who for a time ran the organization out of his home to keep it alive.
> 
> “But it was just too much of a struggle to try and keep it operating. If there were more volunteers, or our members were prepared to make some commitments — and maybe if they were younger — we might have been able to keep it going. But it just got to the point where it was not cost effective and nobody wanted to do the work.”
> 
> The fate of the Kimberley branch is part of a larger crisis facing legions across Canada who are grappling with steadily declining membership as veterans of the Second World War and the Korean War die off, while younger veterans opt not to join.
> 
> At least 64 legions have closed their doors since 2006, while others have declared bankruptcy (Thunder Bay, Ont. Branch 113), collapsed under a mountain of debt (Kingston, Ont. branch 9), sold their halls (Saint John branch 53) or looked to lease portions of their buildings to stay afloat.
> 
> In January, a Vancouver legion plans to rent its social room to a hairdresser. Last year, the legion in Caledonia, Ont., handed its second floor to a dance company. The North Bay, Ont., legion tried to turn its building over to the city to house a provincial courthouse, but the offer was rejected.
> 
> Nationally, the legion command waded into the political area last month by calling on Prime Minister Stephen Harper to exempt Veterans Affairs from planned spending cuts.
> 
> It was a rare move for an apolitical organization that has tended to keep a low profile on policy issues. Officials said it was taking steps to reaffirm its original mission, conceived after the First World War, to advocate for veterans.
> 
> Across Canada, the organization has 326,000 members, down from the 600,000 it boasted during the 1960s. Of the 60,000 people who dropped from the list since 2006, more than half were veterans who had died.
> 
> Younger veterans say they prefer keeping in touch with fellow soldiers over Facebook and email to hanging out at legion halls.
> 
> “Out of 150 friends on Facebook, half of them are from the military,” said Marc D’Astous, a retired infantryman who served in Afghanistan and now runs an Outward Bound program for veterans in the Alberta Rockies with legion funding.
> 
> “We’re still connected. We’re just not meeting up at a building, that’s all.”
> 
> “The image most of us have of the legion is Nov. 11, and that it’s a bar and that it’s an organization for older veterans,” he added.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Korean war veteran Donald Doan sits in the Windsor legion, which is trying to raise $100,000 for maintenance costs.
> Dax Melmer for National Post
> 
> “It’s a tough battle for the legion to reinvent its image and say we cared then and we care now.”
> 
> It has been a challenge to lure the next generation of veterans, particularly those who fought during Canada’s decade-long mission in Afghanistan, said Dennis Holmes, president of a Windsor, Ont., branch that is trying to raise $100,000 for renovations after members narrowly voted against selling the building in August. Its membership has plunged from 2,300 a decade ago to 700 today.
> 
> Mr. Holmes said the legion tried to participate in a Canada-wide welcome home dinner for soldiers returning from Afghanistan in August, but couldn’t track down enough service members to invite.
> 
> “I don’t think most of the younger guys realize that the legion is open to them,” he said. “We’re not the old folks drinking place as we used to be.”
> 
> At issue for many younger veterans is the legion’s shift from military members toward civilian members to help recruit new volunteers. The legion has offered associate membership to veterans’ relatives for years, and in 1998 allowed the general public to join.
> 
> Of the nearly 330,000 legion members, fewer than 90,000 have served in the military. Among the 22,000 new members, just 4,700 have military experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd of cribbage players at the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 255 in Windsor.
> Dax Melmer for National Post
> 
> At the Kimberley legion (average age: 73), just 39 of its remaining 93 members were ex-servicemen and only three were active members of the military. The shift from a veterans’ club to a community organization largely populated by seniors is alienating many young soldiers.
> 
> “The legion is full of civilians right now, I hate to say it,” said Shaun Arntsen, a retired Afghanistan veteran, now working in the oil and gas industry near Canmore, Alta.
> 
> He went to a local legion after returning from Afghanistan, hoping to find support among his colleagues, even aging veterans of the Second World War.
> 
> “I walked into the legion and not a single person there had served in the military and here I am thinking, why do we have this place? For cheap booze, a meat draw and canasta tickets? You guys have got to get up to speed. Get a Facebook page. Get a social networking site.”
> 
> That’s essentially what the legion hopes to do, said Brad White, the legion’s dominion secretary. It is working to set up a “virtual branch,” open only to military members, that would act as a social networking site for ex-soldiers to connect with their units. It hopes to have it running by next summer.
> 
> The legion is encouraging branches to sell off their old buildings and downsize to something more sustainable, Mr. White said. It’s also started a committee to plan for the organization’s future, recognizing younger veterans want things like outdoor activities and mobile apps, not dance halls and watering holes.
> 
> “The old, sitting around a bar, I think that’s been gone for a long time now,” he said.
> 
> National Post
> Email: tmcmahon@nationalpost.com




I am not a member of the Royal Canadian Legion (nor of any other veterans' organization) but I am a (paid up) associate member of the (publicly funded) Army Officers' Mess here in Ottawa and I am a (paid up) member of a couple of Regimental associations and, of course, I am an active member here, of Army.ca, which is, in its own way what Afghanistan vet Shaun Arntsen suggested the Legion needs: "a social networking site.”

I have nothing but respect for 99% of what the Legion has done for veterans and for communities but the 2 million Canadians who served from 1914 to 1953 are, for the most part, dead or dying. I well recall that we, the generation who joined in the 1950s, '60s, '70s and even later were given _mixed_ receptions when we entered a Legion - occasionally warm and friendly, often overtly hostile ("I was there when we were needing them, not feeding them" or "We don't need to *regulars* here") (there was an unhealthy dislike of the pre-1939 *regulars*, the permanent force people, amongst many 1939-45 vets, I'm not sure why and I never bothered to ask) but, mostly, indifferent. So "we" didn't join and, as the article mentioned, the Legion became less and less _military_ and more and more a community service club. (Anecdotally: I was travelling within Canada last year and I met an old school chum who had enjoyed a good, productive career in the reserve forces - he, like me, was long retired. He invited me to his mess (wardroom) which was very, very active - full of dues paying associate members who used it for the same purposes vets used the Legion in the 1950s and '60s: a club for men (and women) who had shared similar experiences. The wardroom's associates were, pretty much, all former regular   and reserve force members, although the subject did not come up, my impression was that this wardroom was their substitute for a Legion which did not meet their needs.)

So: wither the RCL or does it just wither and die?


----------



## OldSolduer

See this link from the Winnipeg Free Press:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/last-post-for-legions-133597368.html

It is sad to see them go, and as a so called "vet" I have never joined a Legion as I've always felt out of place amongst the heroes that frequent the Legions.

Perhaps we, as the bow wave of the "new veterans" need to join, and bring about a change of culture.


----------



## Journeyman

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> A crowd of cribbage players.....


That picture pretty much sums up the Legion in my mind -- I believe that it's already beyond salvaging.


----------



## OldSolduer

The Legion I go to every Remembrance Day is quite active - however in five - ten years I suspect it will go the way of the others.

I think we 50 somethings need to step in and bring the Legion into the 21st Century.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Unfortunately, it is no longer a 'socially accepted' past time to go drink (maybe too much) with your friends on a regular basis. Our own Messes are going through the same thing. I know when I first joined (early '80s), you couldn't get near Slackers (Fleet Club Halifax) on a Friday or Saturday night after 9 pm and EVERY ship was filled to the gunnels with people in all 3 Messes on Friday and Saturday nights as well. I even remember stopping on the way downtown at SCOTIAN as even their MS and Below Mess was opened on Friday nights.
It is indeed sad to see the demise of the Legion as most of them also serve as ad hoc local military museums. Maybe a page can be taken (no pun intended) from the 'new' overseers of Legion magazine. Though I was initially resistant to the change, it has increased readership 10 fold and then some.
Even though we have bashed the Legion for one 'error in judgment' on another thread, I believe the aim of most in the Legion remains the same as it always was and that was essentially as a support club for veterans. Maybe Jim, you are indeed correct-Is it time for the next generation to more aggressively step up to the plate? I know there are Legions where some have. I know of one where the current President is a current serving Navy CPO2-Maybe we need to follow that lead......?


----------



## Journeyman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think we 50 somethings need to step in and bring the Legion into the 21st Century.


I suspect it's more a case of the 30-somethings caring enough to wade in, and then they'll have to convince the 20-somethings, if there's any chance of continuity and continued existence.


----------



## OldSolduer

I agree but we have to start somewhere - We may have to lead them there.....



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> I suspect it's more a case of the 30-somethings caring enough to wade in, and then they'll have to convince the 20-somethings, if there's any chance of continuity and continued existence.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I think "mess's" are following behind the RCL, I find there is not much interest in them anymore.

I was in Borden on course and the JRs mess wasn't a very happening place.  
First off paying the 3 week mess membership fee was THEE most important thing in our clearance.(Second was some kinda scary official languages act brief)
"You WILL pay mess dues, there is time allotted into the course schedule for you to go to your respective messes to clear in- there will be a bus laid on to bring you there and back"

'What about our route letters so we can get paid?'
"Uhh, ya, the clerks will take care of that or something...but pay your mess dues or else".

Actually out of a half dozen places we were supposed to clear in to the only thing that they wanted was the mess in clearance.

The couple of nights we made our way to the mess it was closed, including a Saturday night around 11pm.   It's no wonder people aren't into the mess scene anymore.

Legions are the same way.  Their just not happening places.

The last remembrance day that we went to the local mess to drink with the Vets it closed it's doors at 8pm, with the group we had they could have easily made $2000+ off of us that night.
Another club (Local RCAF wing) just sat there waiting for a reason to give us a hard time. One of the young troops swore and the ring leader at a table quickly stood up rushed over to us from the other side of the hall and started  a speech about appropriate language and there was women present and if we violated the rules again we would be asked to leave.

This is a great article(above) These two points really cut to the chase.



> The shift from a veterans’ club to a community organization largely populated by seniors is alienating many young soldiers.
> 
> 
> “I walked into the legion and not a single person there had served in the military and here I am thinking, why do we have this place? For cheap booze, a meat draw and canasta tickets? You guys have got to get up to speed. Get a Facebook page. Get a social networking site.”



It's a community club who's selling point is the ex military angle only ex military aren't interested anymore. It's only a matter of time before it folds.


----------



## MJP

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> The last remembrance day that we went to the local mess to drink with the Vets it closed it's doors at 8pm, with the group we had they could have easily made $2000+ off of us that night.
> pm



I had the same thing happen last year at the St. James Legion in Winnipeg.  Crowded as all get out, lots story telling, drinking and having fun.  Then boom closed at like 8pm when they could have made allot of money off of the folks inside.  I just shook my head and took my money to a place that wanted it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Agreed re:  messes aren't the "draw" they used to be.

Over the past 10 years, I've seen the Sgt/WO mess I used to belong to go from open two nights a week plus Friday after work plus a party a month or so dribble down to not always open every parade night (which is now once a week).

I also hear second- and third-hand that the JR Club is nowhere NEAR as active as it was when I was in 20 years ago.

Legions in town?  Still open, but way too many, and nobody willing to merge.  On Remembrance Day, a few are packed to the rafters, but methinks many are empty or closed.  My Legion experience is slightly different than some here - "yer just Militia - what have you ever done?"  As Ye Sow, So Shall Ye Reap ....  If organizations suck even 1/2 as much as other threads suggest, how many 50-year-olds are going to put up with that level of b***sh** long enough to ensure the next cohort is in and enjoying?



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> I suspect it's more a case of the 30-somethings caring enough to wade in, and then they'll have to convince the 20-somethings, if there's any chance of continuity and continued existence.


Have to agree - I see myself as an "old fart" at this point, making it hard to convince the up-and-coming types to participate.  Call me persnickety, but with today's "me" generation, I think it's harder to get that cohort to think about how important and fun it is to socialize in person.  Even when I stopped drinking in the 'Mo, I still enjoyed hanging with my buds while I enjoyed my club soda - still do, as a matter of fact.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I agree with the points about messes ... my perception is that fewer and fewer serving members are using them as the "clubs" they should be.* That's probably because they are not operated as "clubs" with 21st century members.

I note, too, the private clubs are closing, regularly, and new ones are not opening.

Part of it is that most serving members are busy and they live in the suburbs and need time with their families. Messes are far away and don't offer activities that matter much to young family men.

The messes, here in Ottawa and in other cities which I have visited in the past few years, seem to be "clubs" for retired officers - except on reserve parade nights. 

Perhaps all "clubs" are on the way out ... 

_______
* Many, many years ago we learned that the officers mess had three functions:

1. The social centre of the unit where the CO and officers _represented_ the unit to the community;

2. A home for the single officers; and

3. A club for all the officers. "Club" in this context implies a _private_, gentlemen's club of the sort that were very popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I honest believe the RCL's time has past in that today's young veteran is not interested in that type of club atmosphere.  For many of the same reasons the Fleet Club is empty on a Saturday night, they have more "relevant action" happening downtown.  For those like myself that have an hours drive home from the city, or at least 1/2 hour from the nearest RCL in my case, it's simply a choice of I don't take a chance of drinking and driving.  I have never set foot in the nearest operational Legion and honestly I don't expect to.

The RCL I was a member of thirty years ago was at that time mostly populated by the town drunkards, mostly civilian as well, and it was not an inspiring place to go to.   I am sure in it's inception it was a needed place for veterans of the Great War to meet and share real face time with.  As some of the others have pointed out, who does that anymore?  The fact that this forum exists and is thriving confirms how socializing has evolved.  Maybe when the last of the Korean vets pass, and as each Branch finds it membership of vets expired so should that Branch.


----------



## GAP

> 1. The social centre of the unit where the CO and officers represented the unit to the community;
> community is basically excluded....
> 2. A home for the single officers; and
> what's the draw.....womin? there? when the local clubs are dripping with'em?
> 3. A club for all the officers. "Club" in this context implies a private, gentlemen's club of the sort that were very popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
> Is that genre of society even active anymore?


----------



## gun runner

I remember the JR Mess open at 1600hrs a couple days of the week, and always on Fridays and Saturdays. That was in the late eighties. The RSS staff were our best customers, and us newbies at the time would sit quietly drinking and listen to the chatter for anything juicy for the PT session in the morning( another thing that is going the way of the Dodo). Course smokers, St.Barbaras day, and battery anniversaries the place was always jumping. Now it is only open on the occasional training weekends, never during the week, and Rememberance Day. Battery dinners, St.Barbaras day, et al, are now held at larger centers(Brandon this year) so that more participants can attend. Ubique :2c: :remembrance:


----------



## medicineman

I seem to recall as late as last year, if you were getting out of the CF (especially as a long service member) you were given basically a free year's membership to the Legion of your choice - I remember filling out a few of those applications for other people's DWD's.  If they want membership, they've got to promote themselves more to the folks still in and getting out...I can say that I was not presented with said certificate or even had it mentioned to me during my DWD...it was the girl from VAC that actually brought up anything about the Legion to me, and largely because of the pension advocacy side of them.

MM


----------



## jollyjacktar

Good point, MM.  I forgot about the VAC advocacy that they do.  I have no personal experience with that end of it or knowledge if it is useful and effective,  but that is an endeavor I will applaud the RCL for doing.


----------



## aesop081

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> but that is an endeavor I will applaud the RCL for doing.



Call me crazy but, the RCL sold us out in the NVC deal and for them to "advocate" for members after that is kind of hypocritical.


----------



## medicineman

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Call me crazy but, the RCL sold us out in the NVC deal and for them to "advocate" for members after that is kind of hypocritical.



Another reason why alot of ex-serviemen/women aren't joining - they feel betrayed by that...

MM


----------



## Kat Stevens

Messes and Legions are dying because it is now socially horrific to see groups of soldiers, or anyone else for that matter, sitting around drinking for long periods.  The mess used to be where we formed our strongest bonds, now it's where you commit carreer suicide.  The CofC decided that type of behavior was no longer acceptable, and the troops abandoned the messes in droves.  They still gather, they just do it away from the fun police.  As for the Legion, they disconnected from the troops when associate membership was made open to all.  Civies don't get us, and we don't get them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Let me tell you about the Windsor Legion, playing cribbage, in the news story above.

A Remembrance Day about ten years ago, myself and about 15-20 other local Reservists, in DEU, showed up there after we left the armouries. In the afternoon and not drunk. We went there because our Legion was closed, on Remembrance Day. :

There was a long haired civilian bartender behind the bar. At first he wouldn't even acknowledge our presence. When he finally did, he said that he wouldn't serve us as the members (about 30 some odd) were having a luncheon in the other room and he was there for that. However, at the moment (and for about the next 20 minutes) he served no one.

We asked to speak to the President. He finally came out and we explained we weren't there for trouble or to disrupt their luncheon. We asked to use the back room and be afforded the use of the bartender as he wasn't doing anything.

The President looked at the bartender, told him to put us in the back room, give us one beer and send us on our way.

Without further word to us, or even speaking to us, he left. The bartender poured a tray of draught, said take it or leave it, took our money and refused to acknowledge us further.

As we were leaving, he told us to go back and return our empty glasses to the bar. House rules. Fat chance with that.

That Legion deserves to close.

You really can't make shit like this up.


----------



## jollyjacktar

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Call me crazy but, the RCL sold us out in the NVC deal and for them to "advocate" for members after that is kind of hypocritical.



Again, I'm afraid I have not kept up with the selling down the river by the RCL.  I am not a fan of the NVC as I feel it is simply a money saving deal for the Government of the day that is in power and has little to do with serving the veteran but much with being self serving.  Period.  I will accept whatever assistance from whatever quarter it comes from in advocacy for veterans against the lapdogs at VAC.  If they, (the RCL) can and want to make up for any douchebaggery they incurred by selling us down the river, let them do it, I say.


----------



## bossi

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Again, I'm afraid I have not kept up with the selling down the river by the RCL.  I am not a fan of the NVC as I feel it is simply a money saving deal for the Government of the day that is in power and has little to do with serving the veteran but much with being self serving.  Period.  I will accept whatever assistance from whatever quarter it comes from in advocacy for veterans against the lapdogs at VAC.  If they, (the RCL) can and want to make up for any douchebaggery they incurred by selling us down the river, let them do it, I say.



Unfortunately I've let my Legion membership lapse, but I'm one of the few that's inclined to try and save it.
Having said that ... the reason I think we need to save it is because of the damage they've done by supporting the NVC (i.e. yes, everybody's observations are valid with respect to old wrongs and shoddy treatment, however ... if we don't remain engaged we run the risk of further dementia ... er, um ... fumbles by the Old Guard in the RCL ... sorta like Von Manstein's "four types of officers")

And, to go off on a tangent for a second ...
The NVC and its lump sum payout came about under the "leadership" of former VAC minister Albina Guarnieri - she views the NVC as a highlight of her career, now that she has retired to suck ... er, um ... draw her cadillac gold-plated fully-indexed MP's pension, unlike the lump sum payout she foisted on our wounded vets ... funny about that, eh?

Okay - back on topic:  I'm the LAST person to pretend I'm "holier than thou", thus I include myself amongst those who can't really complain that much about the RCL's senility - it needs fresh blood, and that's us IMHO.  We are already an "invisible minority" within Canadian society, and we'll be silent as well as invisible if we lose the ability to use the RCL's voice.  $0.02


----------



## Teeps74

Well, I feel much the same as others here. The RCL has sold us out on the NVC (that abomination serves no other purpose then to save money for the government).  The Legion can and should fix it's self.  They have a new generation of vets now who need a strong advocate, ones with political clout and the willingness to fight for vets, especially those who are wounded and in need of advocacy.

Like the phoenix of myth, perhaps the Legion needs to dye off before being reborn... Or perhaps some fire brands with the time effort and intestinal fortitude can take it over and turn it around (I am not that guy, still in, and still busy with other charity work).


----------



## Journeyman

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> ....perhaps the Legion needs to dye ....


What colour?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Journeyman said:
			
		

> What colour?



Oh how about manure brown...


----------



## Teeps74

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Oh how about manure brown...



ROFL!  Thanks gents!

Now, perhaps they can eventually dye themselves a more regal colour in the future... At the moment though, brown would be a really good colour.


----------



## exbirdgunner

Prior to sending this letter I was a RCL member for twenty years. The lack of support for CVNDOP and the long talk I had with the Service Officer(no military experience) in relationship to assisting ALL Veterans with VAC led to a decision that as of today I don't regret. 

It's the RCL's own fault for where they are today. No respect at all. When I transferred my RCL membership to the Selkirk branch the first newsletter showed a picture of seven Associate members being welcomed to the Legion....YET the one Ordinary member(myself) did not receive an invite......I can see where their priorities are.



November 17th 2010


Royal Canadian Legion
Selkirk Branch 42
403 Eveline St.
Selkirk MB
R1A 1N8


Non-support Canadian Veterans National Day of Protest-Resignation


Royal Canadian Legion Branch 42,

It is disappointing that the Royal Canadian legion must stand behind the decision it has made. Many Veterans and Legion members were counting on the Royal Canadian Legions support, even if it was only with word, to allow them to attend this protest knowing the organization that we belong to stands behind them and beside our Veterans.

The support requested was meant to allow the Royal Canadian Legion the flexibility to take a stand without it going against it's own constitution. By once again stating that the Royal Canadian Legion does not support the Canadian Veterans National Day Of Protest can only be defined as supporting the Government of Canada.

By standing by and allowing illegal practices by Veterans Affairs Canada regarding the privacy act, the endorsement of Manulife Financial even though they are the key culprit in the SISIP clawback, allowing the Government of Canada to clawback pensions, and now the open non-support of the Canadian Veterans National Day of Protest, a protest of Veterans who have had enough. I can only conclude that the Royal Canadian legion is no longer the Veterans advocate organization I believed I had joined.

One can only look at current membership numbers to know what is occuring at Royal Canadian Legions across Canada. It is no longer the place for Veterans but in a sense a union hall catering to the “old boys club”. The current executive of Royal Canadian Legion Selkirk Branch 42 is a prime example of Associate members taking over the ranks within the Royal Canadian Legion. One executive member is an actual Veteran, which is on par with the membership numbers across Canada, 370,000 members of which only 70,000 are Veterans. 
This does not give the Royal Canadian Legion automatic privelige to say they are the voice and representation of Veterans, I would say Veteran Voice is more of a “voice for the Veteran” than the Royal Canadian Legion and with a current membership well over 110,000 and growing. Veterans have found a new home.

It is imparative that the Royal Canadian Legion change it's attitude immediately and stand side by side with all Veterans. Without new memberships coming in and a revolt bulding how is the Royal Canadian Legion going to attract actual Veterans for their membership numbers? In the month of October Royal Canadian Legion Selkirk Branch 42 welcomed three new Associate members and another 19 members who I believe are Associate members. So where are the Ordinary members? By continuosly allowing non-Veterans to access the sacred halls only shows how out-of-touch they really are.


Therefore, I wish to inform the Royal Canadian Legion Selkirk Branch 42 I am resigning as a member of the Royal Canadian Legion effective 18 November 2010. I will, at this time, ask any other Legion members who feel the same betrayal do likewise.

Good luck in the future. I wish only the best for our Veterans and pray one day the organization known as the Royal Canadian Legion never views 6th November 2010 as the day that began their downfall.



Lest We Forget.


----------



## 2010newbie

exbirdgunner said:
			
		

> the endorsement of Manulife Financial even though they are the key culprit in the SISIP clawback, allowing the Government of Canada to clawback pensions,



I am unfamiliar with this situation; can you expand on Manulife's wrongdoings?


----------



## Rifleman62

With apologies to: http://washingtoncouldlearnalot.com/


----------



## the 48th regulator

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/09/facebook-replaces-legions-for-new-vets


Facebook replaces legions for new vets

By Jessica Murphy ,Parliamentary Bureau

First posted: Friday, November 11, 2011 02:00 AM EST 






_Afghanistan war veteran Shaun Arntsen marches in Banff's Remembrance Day parade. (Larissa Barlow/ QMI Agency)_

OTTAWA - Modern vets say the best place to find someone who can talk you in off the ledge at 3 a.m. is Facebook.

"You can't sleep because you're trying to deal with the nightmares - what do you do?" said retired coporal Shaun Arntsen.

"You go on Facebook like every other 26-year-old."

For the Afghanistan generation, the pale glow of computer screens have filled the void left by the former heavy hitters of veteran's advocacy, analog organizations left in the dust of the digital revolution.

Online is where soldiers posted overseas connect with family and former colleagues.

It's where the Royal Canadian Legion's scrappy and outspoken grassroots counterparts have set up camp.

It's where Arntsen first heard a colleague he'd soldiered with in Afghanistan - Cpl. Byron Greff - died in a suicide blast in Kabul last month.

And if your neighbours triggered your post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) with an impromptu back yard fireworks display, well, there's another ex-soldier awake somewhere with a laptop and a cooler head who can talk you down.

"Now you've got healing for operational stress injuries immediately," said the 35-year-old third-generation soldier.

Facebook also offers an emotional buffer for ex-army tough guys uncomfortable with admitting they're still haunted with the ghosts of war.

Meanwhile, membership at the legion has been dropping steadily for over 15 years - and the organization is only now mulling whether to launch a social media strategy.

The legion's failure to recruit freshly battle-scarred vets like Arntsen is top of mind for national spokesman Bob Butt - in part because with dwindling membership comes dwindling influence.

"The stronger the membership we have, the more force we have in government circles," Butt conceded.

Ex-servicemen and women from Canada's decade-long war in Afghanistan make up a tiny percentage of the population compared to the surviving soldiers who flooded home when the Second World War ended, argued Butt.

So in a bid to shore up its membership numbers, the legion opened its doors to civilians, leaving ex-soldiers like Arntsen fresh from conflicts overseas with little in common with those occupying branch bar stools.

"The Afghanistan generation doesn't identify with dart leagues, meat draws and Canasta tickets," he argued.

The Department of Veterans Affairs, however, has been more web savvy.

"This is really where things are moving towards at lightening speed," said Peter Yendall, the department's talkative and cheerful communications director.

Publishing information on federal services on Facebook and through Twitter is just the first move in the department's grand plan to reach out to its clients online.

"Then the next step is to increase the engagement, to have more conversations on what the needs are, meeting those needs and opening up that dialogue," he said.

Whether Veterans Affairs and organizations like the legion can move fast enough to catch up with modern vets now home from Afghanistan and transitioning to civilian life remains to be seen.

But guys like Arntsen have a good head start.

The online community already pulled him away from his post-service struggle with PTSD and cocaine where traditional help fell through.

"I walked down a road where the outcome could have been very bad," he admitted.

"But there are guys online right now. If I was having an issue, I'd be talking to them for sure."

People are apparently gangbusters for the feds' “Canada Remembers” Facebook page.

The page, launched in 2010, allows Canadians to share Remembrance Day memories and stories, along with videos and pictures.

“Instead of bringing people out to the brick-and-mortar war memorial — which is still very important — we're trying to actually bring remembrance and commemoration to them,” said Peter Yendall, director general of communications for the Department of Veterans Affairs.

It's has than 500,000 'likes' so far, and if past experience is anything to go by, those numbers will ratchet up during Remembrance Day celebrations.

Last year, the federal government promoted the page through the social media network in the week leading up to Remembrance Day.

“It just snowballed,” said Yendall, recalling watching the page follows swell by 200,000.

“It's created this massive remembrance community. You've got a mix of (Canadian Forces) members and veterans but you also have Canadians, like you or me, on there.”

Yendall is also cheered by the reach it appears to have with younger Canadians, including his own 14-year-old son.

“It's really nice to know the next generation has really gleaned on to this and will continue to carry the torch,” he said.

_Copyright © 2011 mention All rights reserved mention     The Toronto Sun is a member of the canoe network_


----------



## jollyjacktar

Nice to see for those who do Facebook.  Sadly, I'm not one and won't join the crowd at Facebook for many reasons.  And nothing against FB either but for those who do I think it's the perfect place as opposed to the RCL.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Facebook is one method to connect with fellow soldiers* on line, but it does open people up to everyone else they know trying to communicate with them as well. Another alternative is for regimental associations to support the establishment of virtual branches based on units and periods of service or even specific operational tours. It's not just the RCL that has to broaden its approach to assist serving and retired soldiers in building the connections they seek. The old models were formed as the best option at the time, aspects of them are outdated and they need to evolve with the changing communications environment (because that, in my opinion, is their fundamental purpose).


* or sailors, airmen, etc.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Michael O'Leary is right.

Like jollyjacktar I am not a FB user nor am I likely to become one. I suspect age has as much to do with it as anything else.

I am a member of a couple of regimental/corps associations and of another couple of less formal social groups - people who went to certain schools or did certain things gather on a periodic basis. Our regimental/corps associations all seem to suffer from the same _disease_, let's call it the 'Legion Disease,' the younger serving or recently retired members just don't show up - and it isn't a "we're not comfortable in the Officers' Mess" thing - one of our sister regimental associations moved its meetings to another place and there was no change.

The fact is that young vets like Shaun Arntsen, pictured above and, clearly a proud Patricia, doesn't have any more in common with old retired guys like me - most of whom retired before _Afghanistan_ started or even before the _Balkans_ operations - than he does with the old retired guys in the local Legion branch and we, the regiments and corps, like the Legion are not reaching out to him.

Maybe Milnet.ca can provide a 'place' for some.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Agreed ER.  This is as close as I will get to FB and it suits me fine.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Maybe Milnet.ca can provide a 'place' for some.


Or, at the very, very least, a sort of bridge between the Twitter generation and the one a bit before it.  Excellent idea, E.R.


----------



## Edward Campbell

But, jjt, we are _exceptions_ not the rule. Young retired members like Shaun Arntsen, pictured above, and many members here are the rule and they are very comfortable with social media.

Those who want to support them must stop complaining that they don't join seedy old bricks and mortar clubs, filled with people of my age nor do they become associate members of regimental or garrison messes to hang out with folks like you, they go online and look for "friends," people with whole they have a shared bond of experience.


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But, jjt, we are _exceptions_ not the rule. Young retired members like Shaun Arntsen, pictured above, and many members here are the rule and they are very comfortable with social media.
> 
> Those who want to support them must stop complaining that they don't join seedy old bricks and mortar clubs, filled with people of my age nor do they become associate members of regimental or garrison messes to hang out with folks like you, they go online and look for "friends," people with whole they have a shared bond of experience.



I agree wholeheartedly with you.  In my household I am the only one who does not do FB.  At work, all of my  fellows also do FB.  I think that it is a fantastic way for them to keep in touch and feed the social fabric needs of their lives.  FB and the like is the wave of the future for networking socially, not the crypt of the RCL.   For me, I'll do my networking here.


----------



## GAP

My sons often mention that they saw "such & such" on the FB page of one of my other sons....but I've avoided it like the plague....I dislike the premise that aspects of my life would be out there for anybody to garner....

I like my privacy, I'm comfortable with it, and do NOT wish to share with any and all....


----------



## Michael OLeary

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> For me, I'll do my networking here.



And that, in my opinion, is the important part. You've found a vehicle for communication that works for you, and you should stick to it until you are convinced there's an alternative and functional option to explore. The "dying organizations" are the ones who are saying _"we are the old guard, we are here, come to us"_ instead of building the vehicles over which young veterans will be comfortable communicating with each other even if the established members don't understand it or use it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

GAP said:
			
		

> My sons often mention that they saw "such & such" on the FB page of one of my other sons....but I've avoided it like the plague....I dislike the premise that aspects of my life would be out there for anybody to garner....
> 
> I like my privacy, I'm comfortable with it, and do NOT wish to share with any and all....




And we old farts are in violent agreement, but we are a shrinking minority. I just, in the past few days, skipped past a newspaper report about seniors on FB - another sign of old age: I read newspapers, the physical editions that someone leaves at my door every morning. The people that want to _connect_, including us, are using the Internet, and not the RCL or the garrison messes. As Michael O'Leary says this, Milnet.ca, is sufficient for some of us but younger people want the _quicker_ and more public action of FB.

End of:  :deadhorse:


----------



## Spartan

I think a lot of the posts hit it squarely on the head - the emphasis on less drinking and private clubs has gone. 

I also think that the infighting amongst the Legion, ANAVETS, et al has played a crucial role in the Legion's demise. I don't understand the resistance amongst the legion branches in amalgamating and becoming a better operation, and I don't understand why there are multiple veteran organisations in direct competition with each other, often in the same area.

All these coupled together will see the Legion fall from being the CF's advocate, to, simply representing the old guard (which, unfortunately, there are less and less every year :-\)


----------



## tomahawk6

Legion membership is cheaper than a what a shrink charges.The purpose of the Legion is to allow vets to socialize with others that have the same experiences.They also do community activities which are intended to stay relevant in the community.The younger vets dont much care for going to club which is why membership is down in the US.


----------



## kstart

This was an unfortunate story, a 21 year Veteran and his wife were turned away from a Legion Branch in Lethbridge, Alberta on Remembrance Day:

http://www.globallethbridge.com/video/headlines+nov+13/video.html?v=2167229188&p=1&s=dd#top+stories

The Legion apologized. . . the staff member didn't know. . .

I guess it's some dialogue happening. . .



I've heard others at times recommend to others who are struggling with advocacy issues, to visit their local Legion branch for assistance, but what if they're being turned away at the door?  

What if they are at wit's end, struggling with the stress of medical conditions; while the paperwork is held up at VAC, which is delaying access to medical treatment that they need now; and they need support, but they're being turned away?  

How is that for younger CF members, facing recent post-deployment stress, or fears or crisis of disability, under stress.  Why would younger CF go to the RCL, given the NVC, SISIP claw-back which seems like it is punative to the younger generation, or newly disabled CF members (e.g. anyone making a claim, post-2006).  

It seems there is some disconnect?  How could they otherwise let the younger generation fall under the bus on issues of long-term disability coverage, not speak up, speak out on their behalf?  Why is this issue treated as"political" ("don't go there"), when they've had a long-standing record of Veteran's Advocacy for all these years, but not for younger generation CF?  Is it anger about lower membership, so punish the younger generation?

I know there are some very actively engaged RCL members who are reaching out to younger generations, doing outreach, schools, active in their communities, becoming contact persons. . . individuals. . .  I know also, there are other Veteran's Advocacy organizations, maybe having to pick up the slack?

Are they making themselves irrelevant?  Maybe it is just for the older folks, they treat as "their own". . .?  There is social media, advocacy help for younger generations.  It can work effectively, less distractions vs. in a bar, tools readily on hand to look into things, answer questions, and offer support.  I think Milnet here is positive, a mix of younger and older generations, opportunities for input, without the other distractions.  Time for others to look into things as well, hear multitude of perspectives on things.  I still feel it's positive for young and older to mix.


----------



## Brasidas

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Legion membership is cheaper than a what a shrink charges.The purpose of the Legion is to allow vets to socialize with others that have the same experiences.They also do community activities which are intended to stay relevant in the community.The younger vets dont much care for going to club which is why membership is down in the US.



I went to the legion a little bit ten years ago, and it was listening to stories about the army of fifty years before from guys who could have been my grandfather. They were sometimes interesting, but more often than not it wasn't a comfortable environment for me, so I stopped.

Today, there's hardly any of those guys left, and there's no reason for me to set foot in the place other than tradition on Remembrance Day.

My dad wasn't even born when Korea was over, and it was never a place he identified with the members of.

The legion does not now, and never has, had a real place for me and my father, nor anyone of either generation that I've known. When an institution loses touch with its purpose for two generations in a row, it deserves to die.


----------



## bossi

kstart said:
			
		

> It seems there is some disconnect?  How could they otherwise let the younger generation fall under the bus on issues of long-term disability coverage, not speak up, speak out on their behalf?  Why is this issue treated as"political" ("don't go there"), when they've had a long-standing record of Veteran's Advocacy for all these years, but not for younger generation CF?  Is it anger about lower membership, so punish the younger generation?



I agree with other members here - the Legion is "broken".
(and I'll never forgive them for selling us out via the NVC ... they verged on being traitors ...)

However ... when something breaks, sometimes we can scavenge spare or usable parts
(i.e. rather than re-invent the wheel ...)

And, as others have also pointed out, the present-day membership has become part of the problem (i.e. normally veterans look out for each other - however, the Legion membership includes many civilians who've joined during the "dark" decades when public support for our veterans wasn't as visible as it is today - thus, there are civilian members of the Legion who'll never be entitled to VAC or CF benefits ... and even if it's only subconscious ... maybe they're not as willing to fight for veterans benefits as veterans are ...)

We dilute our enery and power if we divide ourselves between too many organizations
(NEVER forget the Romans and their "divide and conquer" - certain political parties here in Canada have perfected it, and used it to weaken any common Canadian identity or consciousness ... and you can be sure there are bureaucrats "somewhere" who are only too happy to see us fight anong or with ourselves, instead of presenting a common united voice supported by a majority of Canadians ...)

Give it some more thought, please - I think we can salvage some spare parts from the Legion ... once we get rid of the parts that aren't working for us ...


----------



## OldSolduer

The Legion is not "broken" but if something isn't done it soon will be.

The Legion needs to bring its thinking into the 21st Century. A change of culture is needed.  Younger people need to step up and run for branch offices - make a difference.

The meat draws, bingos, darts, snooker etc most likely won't draw many younger vets - but a Call of Duty Tournament might.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Brasidas said:
			
		

> I went to the legion a little bit ten years ago, and it was listening to stories about the army of fifty years before from guys who could have been my grandfather. They were sometimes interesting, but more often than not it wasn't a comfortable environment for me, so I stopped.



And there, in a nutshell, is exactly how the RCL is "broken."

They have never realized that what they claimed was _providing connections and support for veterans in general_ was really the groups that found places in the Legion _providing connections and support for their own generation of veterans_ - i.e., the guys with similar experiences with whom they could connect. In not openly welcoming the post-WWII and post-Korea veterans and ex-service members, they skipped the learning curve that would have required institutional change to adjust to the new social norms of each generation.


----------



## OldSolduer

The Legion can be fixed IMO - they have a leadership structure and infrastructure. They have a membership.

It needs the right leaders take them to the 21st Century.


----------



## Michael OLeary

The Legion has a leadership which has devoted itself to maintaining the increasingly unworkable status quo. Whether or not they are even capable of envisioning a future Legion construct that will meet the needs of current and future veterans needs to be examined closely.

The infrastructure (i.e., Legion halls and the resources they consume) are probably one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the whole issue. Legion branches dedicate enormous effort to maintain buildings and bars are are clearly not attractive to the group that should be their primary target audience - the younger veterans who haven't joined. 

They have a rapidly aging and diminishing membership, who are also for the most part are disconnected from the issues affecting our newest veterans and the ways in which they choose to congregate and communicate. The Legion needs more than just the right leaders - they need a new vision with the will to walk away from the non-functional elements, no matter how long they've been sitting there.


----------



## OldSolduer

You have put it far more eloquently than I have, and I agree with you.


----------



## dapaterson

Another example of the pre-1960s thinking that lingers in the Legion:  They still have the "Ladies Auxiliary".  So, who here wants to tell Moe and Vern that their role is to beetle off to the kitchen and make sandwiches while the menfolk run the joint?  The CF today is over 20% female - we've had female combat arms soldiers for two decades.  That paternalism doesn't sit well with today's generations (nor yesterdays, nor the one before).

The Legion is much like many of the established churches - too many branches spending too much money on sustaining the status quo, and refusing to look any wider.  Any sense of a broader vision or mission gets subsumed into the need to keep the local branch open.  

The Legion last increased in size in 1989.  Since then, they have lost over 164K members and are down to 348K.  They are in their death throes.  It's not pretty.  But I think this patient needs a DNR.


----------



## tree hugger

I've been following this thread and I have a quick question... Don't Legions have a membership rule where Associate members are only allowed up to a certain percentage of the overall membership??

Either way, how would you change the demographic from less associate members to more ordinary?  Would you not allow associate membership to renew or just not take any more altogether?  I think it's good to try to recruit more ordinary members, but the problem seems to stem from the amount of civi's populating the Legion.


----------



## Michael OLeary

For some perspective on what the Legion is supposed to accomplish:

*An Act To Incorporate The Royal Canadian Legion (1981)*http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/Manuals/Act_to_Incorporate_E.pdf

4.        The purposes and objects of the legion shall be:

(a)	to constitute an association of those persons who have served or are serving in Her Majesty’s armed forces or any auxiliary thereof, and of other persons who support the purposes and objects of the Legion, which association shall be democratic and non-sectarian and not affiliated to or connected directly or indirectly with any political party or organization,

(b) 	to bring about the unity of all who have so served,

( c) 	to further among them the spirit of comradeship and mutual help, and the close and kindly ties of active service,

See the pdf for paras (d) through (v).


----------



## Journeyman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, who here wants to tell Moe and Vern that their role is to beetle off to the kitchen and make sandwiches while the menfolk run the joint?


   op:   
                I'd pay the year's membership just to watch.   ;D


----------



## Old Sweat

I really don't know how typical our local branch is. It has a female president and I think the Ladies' Auxillary laid a wreath at the ceremony. At the end of the ceremony the branch invited the general public to join them for soup and sandwiches. The hall was packed. The membership is definitely senior and I ain't too sure too many of the 15 to 20 folks I saw at the service in uniform are members. So what? Despite quite a bit of outreach the RCL doesn't seem to be connecting with the serving members and recent vets.

However we will attend the monthly breakfast this Saturday and wolf down the best spread in the Valley for five bucks a plate.


----------



## PMedMoe

Journeyman said:
			
		

> op:
> I'd pay the year's membership just to watch.   ;D



Probably be worth every penny, too.   :nod:


----------



## Michael OLeary

tree hugger said:
			
		

> I've been following this thread and I have a quick question... Don't Legions have a membership rule where Associate members are only allowed up to a certain percentage of the overall membership??



*The General By-Laws * (2010)
http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/Manuals/Bylaws_2010_e.pdf

Doesn't appear to be there. See pages 16-19 for Categories of Membership.


BTW Moe, you're in luck: _"A female member of the Legion or an ex-servicewoman who is eligible to be a member may also be a member of a ladies auxiliary."_  (pp. 56) 

And, just to make sure that patriachal supervision is maintained in case things get out of hand in the kitchen: _"A ladies auxilairy shall be under the jurisdiction of the branch."_    ;D


----------



## PMedMoe

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> BTW Moe, you're in luck: _"A female member of the Legion or an ex-servicewoman who is eligible to be a member may also be a member of a ladies auxiliary."_  (pp. 56)



Yes, "may" being the key word.  (But I don't wanna!!!   :crybaby

Sorry, I'm not rushing off to join the Legion anytime soon......if at all.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I wonder if we should not send a link of this thread to the grand poo-bah of the RCL? Sometimes to realize you are doing something wrong you need to get a harsh lesson in reality.


----------



## OldSolduer

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I wonder if we should not send a link of this thread to the grand poo-bah of the RCL? Sometimes to realize you are doing something wrong you need to get a harsh lesson in reality.



I call that a good slap upside the head.....maybe its a good idea.


----------



## foresterab

Was talking about this with the other half this morning...

Noticed two things in and around Alberta/BC in the small towns where we've lived.

1) Legions that are still active and vibrant have done a good job of highlighting all veterns. One branch had a photo of every local resident who had ever joined the forces up until the mid-2000's...in chronological order and with equal respect.  That legion still was a major focal point for the community for all events due to it's prominance within the community.

or
2) Legions that revolve around a generational age group.  The legion in my hometown for example has photos of all WW1, WW2 and Korea vets but when I asked about other veterns got told they didn't have time to track them down...pretty sad excuse when some of the Legion members grandkids were/had served recently.  Needless to say the only "young" blood is associate members and most don't think about them much.

Personally...I haven't served in the military so won't join the RCL as a matter of principal.   Of the last 6 towns I've worked in and the 3 towns the other half worked in we came up with 2 active legions and the rest on life support.  Theres some good that can be done but a winnowing out is needed.

My two cents.


----------



## Gronk

Been reading this thread and the one about use of the poppy symbol, and thought I would weigh in.

   I have been a member of the Whitehorse Legion for 10 yrs now. My first yrs membership was paid for by my folks as a gift while I was still serving. I have been active in the branch since I moved back home after I released in 05. I am currently the 1st Vice President, Service Officer, Bar Manager, Entertainment Director, and Chair of the Support Our Troops Committee. I am running for President in the election later this month. I give a lot of my time to the Legion because firstly, I can (I was medically released and have worked only p/t since I retired), and more importantly, I strongly support the good work my branch does for veterans in my community and throughout the Yukon.

   Some of the things we've done around the Yukon are: We sponsor & run the Whitehorse Remembrance Day Ceremony and Remembrance Week activities as well as suplying wreaths & poppies for communities all over the Yukon, We sponsor & run the Whitehorse Canada Day Celebration, Sponsor the local Army Cadet Corps, Bought medical eqpt for vets at home & in the hospital, Donated to, supported, and brought north the Veterans Transition Program, Made sizable donations to Honour House in Vancouver (kind of a ronaldmacdonald house for vets, servicemembers, and first responders - a lot of our vets travel to Vanc for medical), Through our S.O.T. Campaign, we have spent over $40k on care pkgs for adopted platoons in Afg, and individual Yukoners/relatives of branch members, as well as sizable donations to Wounded Warriors & Soldier On. I could go on and on.

   These things we do are for the benefit of ALL vets and servicemembers in the Yukon, not just senior veterans and Legion members. If you made the commitment to serve, and signed on the bottom line, you are a Veteran in the eyes of VAC and the Legion, and you are welcome in my branch. Several years ago, we passed a bylaw making all currently serving CF and RCMP members in Whitehorse honourary members of our branch. We did this, not as a recruiting tool, but to make them feel welcome here and due to our liquor lic. As long as I am still drawing a breath, ALL Vets & Servicemembers young & old, are welcome here.

more to follow (I have to do some shovelling)


----------



## jollyjacktar

kstart said:
			
		

> This was an unfortunate story, a 21 year Veteran and his wife were turned away from a Legion Branch in Lethbridge, Alberta on Remembrance Day:


When my Dad come home from overseas in 45 he was told to hit the road and he was not welcome from the # 1 Branch in Calgary.  He was bitter for many years after about the RCL.


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## AJC

I was a Legion member for 12 years and played in the Branch pipe band for 20ish, but sent my card back in the mail. The Legions do it to themselves. My reasons:
Dick measuring. Unless you were in the last one you don't count. Even the First War guys shunned the WW11 vets;
I was at my branch in Kelowna with Blackie Lalonge DCM MM, in the uniform of the branch pipe band on Nov 11 after the parade. The dude behind the bar wanted to see Blackies membership card.
The ladies auxillary, the pipe band, and even the execs, regularly wore hats in the branch, but they refused entry to a sikh 8th Army veteran.
I was refused entry to Oromocto branch. Sgt at the CTC with a membership card from another branch. Despite the Bylaws, and I did read them.  Dude  at the door suggested I wait for another member to show up and see if he would sign me in. To the Camelot I went.
The civie associate members don't know us or want to. New veterans and I will count myself in there, like the idea, but choose to socialize in other methods, Facebook /email /whatever being one. The days of drinking at the legions, playing bingo, and yearly reunions are over. Hate to say it but the same is effecting our messes.


----------



## tango22a

What's it take the RCL to realize that what it boils down to is "ADAPT OR PERISH"???

I only retain membership in the local Branch to piss off some (MOST!!!!) of the Associates who run this lash up and who seem to feel it's run only for their benefit. 


tango22a


----------



## kstart

edit: offended too many people


----------



## Journeyman

kstart said:
			
		

> So she's sitting with some "old guard" (symbolically, it can be represented as a split between Gen. Hillier vs. Gen. Dallaire. . . maybe, in terms of identification),


I haven't the vaguest idea what that means.

But that's OK, because... 





> ignore if it's too much


-- too easy; you are once again back on <ignore> 


Some here have limited patience for long-winded, self-important diatribes.   :


----------



## GAP

> Some here have limited patience for long-winded, self-important diatribes.   :



didn't bother even looking at it.....it's just so much drivel....


----------



## Journeyman

GAP said:
			
		

> didn't bother even looking at it.....it's just so much drivel....


Sadly, I read it.   :not-again:   Lesson re-learned.


----------



## dogger1936

Honestly If I went to the legion here in my hometown area I would have no more in common with the members than I would if I went to the local pub. And if I really needed assistance I`m fairly certain none of the members there would have a clue how to provide it; as the last veterans in my area are long deceased.

My grandfather benefited greatly in his later years from the legion. They helped modify the house to improve his ability to shower, use the bathroom etc. As a WW2 vet he spent many nights up into his senior years involved with the legion. In fact the first time my dad drove a car was bringing him home very inebriated at the old age of 8. The legion was what the name suggests to my grandfather. Men who had a commonality through the horrors of war and brotherhood of service to country. I don`t see that for my generation.


----------



## kstart

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I haven't the vaguest idea what that means.
> 
> But that's OK, because... -- too easy; you are once again back on <ignore>
> 
> 
> Some here have limited patience for long-winded, self-important diatribes.   :



Yeah, that was stupid conceptualization :-[  
I would just wish to see some preservation of what's positive of tradition and principles, re-alignment, but I don't know what's possible-- I'd hope for some level of unity, diverseness.  I'm sure things will go the way it goes, with our without my opinions/perspectives/diatribes.  Conflict resolution process, not sure if that's do-able, someone else here may have familiarity, expertise on that, to assess whether do-able.  Organizations go through periods of ups and downs, they can sometimes be corrected if people are motivated to do so.

Remembrance Day is still fresh and I have attachment to that and also recent issues re: advocacy; I'd also hope for principles to be retained which value _one veteran, one standard_; _leave no vet behind_. . . in view of  :yellow: and just my  :2c:


----------



## 54/102 CEF

What made the Legion go downhill? This is just my concept which is as follows

It probably had a good membership base as long as we had a large Armed Forces. Certainly we had this until the mid 60s with many veterans from WW2 and Korea being potentially available as members.

That was the era of a national commitment to defence reflected in large numbers of verterans and over 100,000 full time military personnel.

Then the reductions of the Trudeau era hit and the Canadian Forces focussed on a trip wire force in Germany with a decline in forces in being in Canada and a general underfunding of the Reserves.

 Fast forward to 2011 where we`ve just pulled out of Afghanistan and where fielding 2500 soldiers on a continuous basis was a big thing for a regular force of 60,000 all ranks with an additional 25,000 reserves. Add that to the many other chain restaurants and bars across the country and you see that with the advent of many places to spend disposable time and money and the decline of the feed of veterans it is only a matter of time where the lines of veterans decline to such an extent that local Legions can`t attract veterans who typically served very short full time stints before the rise of the long service community based soldier force of the mid 60s forward.

As the Forces presence declines across the country so to do those organisations like the Legion who reflect the experiences of community based veterans.

As the long thin line of veterans comes back to the community after their service - the lights of Legions across the country forned with a massive base in the beginning will continue to switch off their lights and lock the doors forever.


----------



## Brasidas

54/102 CEF said:
			
		

> What made the Legion go downhill? This is just my concept which is as follows
> 
> It probably had a good membership base as long as we had a large Armed Forces. Certainly we had this until the mid 60s with many veterans from WW2 and Korea being potentially available as members.
> 
> That was the era of a national commitment to defence reflected in large numbers of verterans and over 100,000 full time military personnel.



I've known plenty of post-WW2 family, my father in particular, who weren't welcome, on the basis of their not being a "real" veteran.


----------



## Danjanou

I have been remiss in joining this discussion and in fact was about to start a thread based on the tangent the thread on the RCL’s latest Poppy gaffe had taken. Thanks to Mr. Campbell for doing so. Ironically my tardiness was a result of my being busy with legion activities around November 11th.

First, full disclosure, in addition to 18 year's service in the CF, I've been a Legion member for four years and presently serve on the executive of my branch and zone (the next highest level of organization in the RCL). The fact that I've managed to move rather rapidly up in the legion hierarchy is in of itself one of their problems, a lack of willing and able leadership. (BTW it should be quite easy for those Legion members who this thread has been forwarded to, to figure out my real name, it's in my profile.)

We will make the presumption that there is a need for a bricks and mortar veterans or ex-service persons organization for numerous reasons including social activities as well as advocating for veterans concerns in addition to cyber ones like this site.

The question then is do we set up a new one and let the RCL totter off to die a natural death as suggested by some, or retake what was once ours?

Should we decide on the latter there are some issues. First the problem of actually physically setting it up, by laws membership et cetera. Do we just have an organization or do we establish physical buildings as well, canteens, messes or branches as it were. If we do the later the added expense and time to establish and maintain them is a factor. If we don't where will we choose to meet.
Then we get to membership, who is in? Is this for all CF personal or do we break it up by when we served? An Afghanistan only vets club? A Bosnia only organization? If the later that means some will end up belonging to more than one group, or conversely excluded. O we allow spouses in as Associates, allied nations?

How effective at the national level will this organization(s) be, and how long before it becomes what we want it to be. Anyone a member of the NATO Veterans organization? The UN Peacekeepers?  Anyone attended a meeting of any of those or other minor groups.

Not saying that this option is impossible, or wrong, but it will require a lot of effort and may not be worth it in the end. For better or worse the RCL is the brand name in Canada when the masses think of Veterans where that is deserved at present or not.

So we get back to retaking the Legion as an option, how do we do that?


----------



## dogger1936

Veterans Only. Remove the civilians, close branches where necessary.  Canadian and Allied vet's only. (Veteran being someone who has served in a branch of the CF. ) If this means cutting 10 legions down to one central branch so be it. Pay a vet's family member towork the bar and cater out the finger foods to remove the "women's aux." Let's face it our wife's of today would much prefer to be on their husbands arm instead of making ham sandwiches in the kitchen. Not to mention it makes the legion sound as disconnected from today as it is. Use the massive upkeep money to make the smaller number of legions a fun great place to go with the wife. Not a dreary dungeon of old civilians.


----------



## GAP

The only way the RCL is going to survive in any form for the next generations is by consolidation.....which they seem reluctant to do. There is so much pride, sweat, etc invested into each of the individual branches....nobody wants to give up theirs to join yours....

until that happens, they are going to wither and die on the vine.....


----------



## Michael OLeary

Consolidation, stripping away the functions that consume resources but do not appeal to the future (potential) membership, and continuing evolution in the new environment within which people communicate and maintain contact with those with who they served. If that means virtual Branches, that needs to be explored. If that means inviting the many splinter groups of veterans to be new branches, under compromised terms of reference that fit their own working structures (not "old school Legion definitions"), then its time the Legion started making the compromises to draw veterans back into a central organization that can stand for them.

Perhaps the concept of the Legion remains valid, but it's operational model is a dying vine that needs to be pruned with a solid grasp of what the future needs to achieve.


----------



## Danjanou

To contine:

Some background on the decline of the RCL as I see it and more or less confirmed by other observations here.  When I joined up in the late 1970’s the Legion was probably in its heyday. Second World War vets would have been on average in their middle fifties and well established in regards to their careers and family lives. As such they had the time and resources to devote to social activities and charitable work such as would be found in the Legions.

The executives from Dominion to branch level would have been made almost exclusively of WW2 and Korean War veterans.  They had inherited this from the previous generation of first World Veterans who established the Legion in the 1920s and were at the time aging out.

For reasons not clear they for the most part declined to accept the newer generation of service persons as “equals” as has been noted. I was eligible for Legion membership in 1977-78 as far as can tell both as an Ordinary member having sufficient service then or as an Associate under my Father's or Grandfathers service. I choose not to (and didn't join until 2007 13 years after I left the Army), probably because it didn't interest me and I wasn't felt welcome.

I can remember being welcomed into a branch on November 11th but shunned the other 364 days of the year as have others. Mind this was not true of all branches then nor is it now.   The “real soldiers” who stormed Juno beach or spent their service defending Winnipeg or Debert against a potential Japanese invasion decided that those of us who spent their service on the Fulda Gap or the Isle of Love were not welcome in their little tree house so we didn't try and get in. We in turn passed this attitude on to the next generation who served in Kigali, Medak and Sarajevo, and they in turn to the latest generation who did their time in the Panjawi.     

A couple of years back a member of my former branch asked “when are the Afghan vets going to join?” in their media inspired naivety they saw this as a real war and real vets ignoring the previous generations of service and therefore thought the local branch would soon be full of arid cadpat clad warriors clamouring to join the euchre tournaments.   They were quite upset at my blunt but probably correct answer of never.”

About the same time as all this was going on the Legion created a new class of membership Associate's for their spouse and kids to join up. It seemed that not all of the little women were June Cleaver types content to be in the Auxiliary and churn out meat pies for the boys.  If hubby was going to be downing wobbly pops and playing card on Saturday then so was Mom.

Fast forward a couple of decades and the fifty something's running the place like their First World War predecessors found themselves  too old to keep running the place and had to turn it over to a new generation. Problem was though,  with a few exceptions the Cold Warriors and Blue Berets had passed on having to spend 20 years sitting at the kids table waiting to be found worthy  and weren't there to have the proverbial  torch passed on to them. 

That left it to their biological children, who probably joined reluctantly because Dad said they had to.  Having missed that crucial step in running g a former service persons organization, actually  having served  themselves, things began to change. Now they in turn are hitting an age barrier and about to turn it over to their progeny , or the newest type of membership Affiliates basically anyone with a pulse, and willing to pony up the annual dues.  The average branch has had the proverbial torch passed on to someone whose only connection to the military is Grandfather spent 1939-45 in Borden or  worse just joined to play darts every Thursday.

The above is of course a generalization, but not too far off the mark. In many branches there is no connect to the military ethos anymore. Traditions like the opening ceremony, colour parties, parades,   have become a thing of rote passed down because it has always been done, but no one remembers why or in some cases even how. In some it's become like that old Star trek episode where Kirk  and company finds themselves on some alternate world where the big one went down  and the survivors are seen mangling the pledge of Allegiance in front of a tattered Stars and Stripes. 

The present leadership are for the most part not bad and/or uncaring people, ok some are, but merely have never been properly led or prepared for their new roles.


----------



## Bass ackwards

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The above is of course a generalization, but not too far off the mark. In many branches there is no connect to the military ethos anymore. Traditions like the opening ceremony, colour parties, parades,   have become a thing of rote passed down because it has always been done, but no one remembers why or in some cases even how. In some it's become like that old Star trek episode where Kirk  and company finds themselves on some alternate world where the big one went down  and the survivors are seen mangling the pledge of Allegiance in front of a tattered Stars and Stripes.



I showed up early for the Remembrance Day services and thus was able to watch an individual from the local RCL drilling his colour party. 
Said individual had the prescribed pace stick, mustache, command voice, pot belly and a rack of medals -all on the right breast.
(said individual also had the curious ability, it turned out, to march not just out of step with everyone else, but at a different pace -which is nearly impossible when you have a band playing you onto the square)

The colour party consisted of three legion members, two air cadets and an RCAF corporal they shanghaied from somewhere. They were doing two different types of drill plus no drill at all (the Legion members). It was a gong show.
I realize Remembrance Day services are about respect -not pageantry, but man...


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

The RCL is in a no-win numbers game regardless of what they do or don't do.  The regular force averages a 7% attrition so that means there is roughly 4750 "new" veterans a year.  Even if you allow a similar number for the reserves (smaller force but higher turnover), you are still only covering a fraction of the RCL attrition per year.  Note that I'm only using these numbers to illustrate the numbers joining/departing the CF every year and not to indicate that you need to be ex-CF to be a veteran.

That being said, is there a role for a national veterans organization?  What is the role?  Is it better to have a bunch of smaller niche groups that fill the social need but not the political voice role?


----------



## ArmyRick

I think it has been summed up very well here. The RCL needs to transform itself or it will go the way of the dodo as people move on. I am a former Legion member and I did not re-new for similar reasons to what is being said on here. I simply do not feel a connection to that "old guard". Its sad, because the legion was a great organization but if you hold onto certain things and fail to modernize or adapt, you risk being irrelevant.


----------



## exbirdgunner

2010newbie said:
			
		

> I am unfamiliar with this situation; can you expand on Manulife's wrongdoings?




The RCL and ManuLife feed off of eachother. Unless I am missing something it seems to me they look after eachother before the Veterans.

http://www.rclinsurance.com/

The RCL promotes and advertises Manulife as the place to go for coverage.....hahahaha!!!

cheers


----------



## 2010newbie

Sorry, are you saying Manulife should be providing free insurance to Vets? Was there an issue where Manulife did not support insurance policies that were written for veterans?  I guess I don't see your connection.

They are the 240th largest company in the world according to Fortune's 2011 Global 500 list with revenues of almost $36 billion. I don't really see how Manulife would be feeding off the RCL or its members.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2011/snapshots/10798.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Manulife provides medical travel insurance, life insurance, etc to Vets. Same as they do to other large groups and seniors. The Legion works with Dell computers, Mastercard and any one of a bunch of other organizations to bring benefits to their members.

There's nothing diabolical or nefarious in any of this. Move on.

exbirdgunner,

Go read the rules about trolling.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## AJC

I hate to see the Legions close, but until we as a "organization" or "demographic" can get out of the dick measuring habit, things will never change. " Your service isn't as good as mine, or as hard, or as long etc etc" Thats the good thing about ANAF clubs, if you can find them mind you, they never seemed to care where you were or what you did, just that you'd served. I asked my father why he wasn't a member. His 32 years in the Militia wasn't worth anything to the old guys.


----------



## Tank Troll

I attended my Uncles funeral service this past week and there was a Honour guard from the legion there. My Uncle was quite active with the Legion up until 5 years ago. (he was 91 when he passed) They showed up with a small CD / cassette player that I presume had the last post on it. I say this because it didn't work. I don't know if they tested it before hand or not. After several attempts to get it to play, the guard commander apologized to the family and they did the place a poppy stomp their foot and bow thing. It was quite hard to watch actually as my Uncle, Father and myself were all drill instructors at one time or an other. One of them came up after and thanked my Father, Brother, Sister, and myself for our service to Canada, which was quite unexpected.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Our condolences on your loss.


----------



## Danjanou

recceguy said:
			
		

> Our condolences on your loss.



My condolences.

 I've done more than a few of these Legion services in the past couple of years. There is a procedure and some do try and follow it, others well.....

 I'll usually grab the Legion contingent outside the room (in the hall or if available another room)  and sort them out and once again explain the procedure: "march in, halt, turn inwards, stand at ease. Once the padre gives the start signal, come to attention. After Last Post and Rouse and the Eulogy move in pairs to the coffin and place the poppies etc." When done right it does look good. Nine times out of ten I just get dirty looks from the group and a patronizing lecture on how :they've been doing it for years"  and they  then proceed to shuffle in and do whatever strikes their fancy.  As I've said before It's like herding cats with Alzheimer's. 

I ensure that at least the final salute is given with some decorum and dignity.

The intent is there, just the will to do it properly. Attendance at most of the services last year was well in excess of what shows up for a meeting and even November 11th, and most dressed in Blues and Grays. The big problem with the Legion is apathy. The majority of the membership does not care and at best goes through the motions


----------



## mad dog 2020

As I enter that age and like many boomers have a empty nest, I see so many other retired or ex CF people starting or rekindling MC clubs, Regimental ***'n, reunions, celebrate Reg't birthdays and Naval historical days while most important Rememberance Day. I am a member and have been since my Mom gave me a membership when I joined the army in the 70s. As I moved I changed branches. I always stop in the local legion during my business travels and get the inside scoop or lay of the land.  
I see many of us have turned to the Legion which is Nation wide, yet many are closing or consolidating in some areas.  The small town or rural Branches seem strong and very community orientated. Yet plenty of us ignore this resource.  
I do notice that maybe in some cases the concept has been hijacked as there are some branches that are very heavily influenced by the associate members as there minimal ex-military. I have been in a few where it is not a welcoming atmosphere, yet this year in Kingston I was adopted by a ex-president and given a tour and made to feel at home. In Whitehorse, I was immediately invited to the stammtisch (regular table) and included as a new found friend. In Richards Landing, I was invited to return and live there. Niagara Falls was another enjoyable experience in the Branch that is surviving.
However in some of the bigger branches, I was treated as a necessary evil and ignored or looked upon as an intruder, yet I too hold a membership, just not there.
So my point is that the RCL needs to look at recruiting while the military is on a high note.  Attitude would help or many more branches will wither and die, and that would be a shame.
I believe that we should have more people join and use the facilities for our reunions like Arnprior which bent over backwards a couple yrs ago for us and made a handsome profit that weekend.
It is about time we embraced the Legion as many of us are either in the pasture or moving that way, not to mention provide assistance for the older veterans from both WW2 and Korea.  So rally the Cold War warriors and be there for the guys from Bosnia, and Afghanistan.  Pool our resources and work with VAC.
Took me ahile but I read all 9 pages.  great points.
I was at the Fleet club in Halifax a couple years ago mid-week and there were like 9 people in the joint including the Duty NCM and barender.
with no more  S.L.O.B.s, most young ones have a room in the shack or an apt. and they got PS3, XBox, computers, internet, and cable t.v. We used the JRC as our tv room and living room. 
And like the JRC and Legions the local businesses complain you are stealing their livihood with happy hours or the mess on the ships.  Even in Borden the most business now is either Bleachers or the Cast and Blast.  So Canex is stealing the business.  As for the Reserve units their messes are greatly reduced or amalgamated for the ORs.  Maybe the legions should provide a service in a separate area where available for RCMP, EMS and local reserve units.  Since MADD and the emphasis on DUI charges, more people are just caccooning (sp). and rightly so.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mad dog 2020 said:
			
		

> As I enter that age and like many boomers have a empty nest, I see so many other retired or ex CF people starting or rekindling MC clubs, Regimental ***'n, reunions, celebrate Reg't birthdays and Naval historical days while most important Rememberance Day. I am a member and have been since my Mom gave me a membership when I joined the army in the 70s. As I moved I changed branches. I always stop in the local legion during my business travels and get the inside scoop or lay of the land.
> I see many of us have turned to the Legion which is Nation wide, yet many are closing or consolidating in some areas.  The small town or rural Branches seem strong and very community orientated. Yet plenty of us ignore this resource.
> I do notice that maybe in some cases the concept has been hijacked as there are some branches that are very heavily influenced by the associate members as there minimal ex-military. I have been in a few where it is not a welcoming atmosphere, yet this year in Kingston I was adopted by a ex-president and given a tour and made to feel at home. In Whitehorse, I was immediately invited to the stammtisch (regular table) and included as a new found friend. In Richards Landing, I was invited to return and live there. Niagara Falls was another enjoyable experience in the Branch that is surviving.
> However in some of the bigger branches, I was treated as a necessary evil and ignored or looked upon as an intruder, yet I too hold a membership, just not there.
> So my point is that the RCL needs to look at recruiting while the military is on a high note.  Attitude would help or many more branches will wither and die, and that would be a shame.
> I believe that we should have more people join and use the facilities for our reunions like Arnprior which bent over backwards a couple yrs ago for us and made a handsome profit that weekend.
> It is about time we embraced the Legion as many of us are either in the pasture or moving that way, not to mention provide assistance for the older veterans from both WW2 and Korea.  So rally the Cold War warriors and be there for the guys from Bosnia, and Afghanistan.  Pool our resources and work with VAC.
> Took me ahile but I read all 9 pages.  great points.
> I was at the Fleet club in Halifax a couple years ago mid-week and there were like 9 people in the joint including the Duty NCM and barender.
> with no more  S.L.O.B.s, most young ones have a room in the shack or an apt. and they got PS3, XBox, computers, internet, and cable t.v. We used the JRC as our tv room and living room.
> And like the JRC and Legions the local businesses complain you are stealing their livihood with happy hours or the mess on the ships.  Even in Borden the most business now is either Bleachers or the Cast and Blast.  So Canex is stealing the business.  As for the Reserve units their messes are greatly reduced or amalgamated for the ORs.  Maybe the legions should provide a service in a separate area where available for RCMP, EMS and local reserve units.  Since MADD and the emphasis on DUI charges, more people are just caccooning (sp). and rightly so.



Here's an experiment for you using social media: get a Twitter and a Facebook account, open the bar, and fire up a Friday afternoon Happy Hour Flash Mob. Make sure you put up a You Tube clip before you do it with a video of you dancing in a Hula Skirt (or  :dileas. Include a link to this tasteful scene on your comms. Make sure you let people know the soapy tasting draft is on sale.... :cheers:

Seriously... most Legions are really boring for anyone...... under 30. This could be a hoot (bag).  ;D


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Sign removal dishonours soldier, family says
Legion in Springdale wants tribute sign for Cpl. Stephen Bouzane removed, citing safety issues
CBC News Posted: Feb 2, 2012 9:16 AM NT Last Updated: Feb 2, 2012 3:57 PM NT 






Maureen Bouzane is upset that the Legion in Springdale wants a sign erected in tribute to her son removed. (CBC)


The family of a Newfoundland soldier who was killed in Afghanistan says the memory of their son is being dishonoured, after being told their tribute is a hazard.

The Bouzane family donated two large tribute signs to Royal Canadian Legions in Springdale and St. Alban's last year. Now, they're being told the sign in Springdale is causing traffic problems.

Sitting at home in St. Alban's, Maureen Bouzane's eyes well up at the mention of the memorial for her son, Cpl. Stephen Bouzane, killed in 2007 at the age of 26.





This sign, in St. Alban's, is one of two erected in the memory of Cpl. Stephen Bouzane, who was killed in Afghanistan in 2007. (CBC)

"The one in Springdale doesn't mean nothing to me any more," she told CBC News.

Bouzane said the local Legion sent the family an e-mail, asking that the sign be moved because it's close to the road and causing a traffic worry, as drivers slow to look at it.

But the RCMP and the town haven't received any complaints.

And that's left Fred Bouzane, Stephen's father, frustrated.

"His memory has been disrespected in my opinion," he said. "So I'm just taking the sign out of it."

Bouzane plans to take the sign down Saturday, and put it in storage until a new location can be found.

The Legion isn't commenting.


Local news reports are now stating that Dominion Command has told this legion that the sign will stay.


----------



## OldSolduer

Wow. Speechless.


----------



## medicineman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Wow. Speechless.



You seem surprised?  Seems to me that this is another sign that the Legion is more about the Legion now than about who/what they were formed for in the first place.

MM


----------



## dogger1936

"because it's close to the road and causing a traffic worry, as drivers slow to look at it."

Cause drivers want to see what a real soldier and Canadian looks like.

I'll leave my rant about what I believe to be lurking inside said legion; alas I guess there are not many soldiers to be found there.


----------



## OldSolduer

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> "because it's close to the road and causing a traffic worry, as drivers slow to look at it."
> 
> Cause drivers want to see what a real soldier and Canadian looks like.
> 
> I'll leave my rant about what I believe to be lurking inside said legion; alas I guess there are not many soldiers to be found there.


You said it better than I could.


----------



## Good2Golf

...just a few more nails in the coffin and the Legion is dead.  So be it.  :not-again:


----------



## my72jeep

With my brother, sister,brother in law, my self, 7 CIC officers, 6 WW2 vets, 2 Korea vets, 6 other ranks( Bosnia, Afghan) and My dad EX RCMP all the other 126 members of my branch are members because Mom,Dad,Grampa,Grandma served now talk about thick............. Some days I hate to walk in the door.


----------



## dogger1936

my72jeep said:
			
		

> With my brother, sister,brother in law, my self, 7 CIC officers, 6 WW2 vets, 2 Korea vets, 6 other ranks( Bosnia, Afghan) and My dad EX RCMP all the other 126 members of my branch are members because Mom,Dad,Grampa,Grandma served now talk about thick............. Some days I hate to walk in the door.



Then don't.

 My grandfather, uncles, both parent in laws, wife and I are all ex regular force with tours to various places....and none of us will have anything to do with the legion.  paying money to an organisation like this is wrong IMHO.

I feel like driving to this ladies house and giving her a hug. I would put the memorial on my front lawn; if this legion doesn't respect a fallen soldier memory; my children and family will. 

This makes me more vexed every time I read it.... :nod:


----------



## Jed

Well, for the last couple of years I have been resisting the push from various relatives and friends to join the local legion for all the many reasons posted on this thread.

Next Tuesday I get inducted into the local legion. I guess I decided to be one of the few that stay in and help sort things out from within. The worse case scenario is that I am one unheard voice speaking for the new veterans; the best case is that I will be part of the vanguard of new vets bringing needed reform to this venerable organization.


----------



## dogger1936

Here's the Legion...

Once hurting for numbers...I wonder who "filled the ranks"...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2009/11/30/nl-sprindgdale-legion-1130.html?ref=rss



Edit to add contact information for those interested: http://www.weblocal.ca/royal-canadian-legion-springdale-nl.html


----------



## tango22a

Maybe the Memorial could be replaced with a sign saying: "Service Personnel and dogs keep off the grass!"
(SARCASM!!!)

Another prime example of how the Associate Member mindset runs today's RCL. It also should be noted that from what I understand that this Branch is hardly surviving due to LOW membership. I feel that the nameless person or persons behind this whole issue truly deserve the ass-chewing headed their way.

tango22a


----------



## The Bread Guy

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Sign removal dishonours soldier, family says
> Legion in Springdale wants tribute sign for Cpl. Stephen Bouzane removed, citing safety issues
> CBC News Posted: Feb 2, 2012 9:16 AM NT Last Updated: Feb 2, 2012 3:57 PM NT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maureen Bouzane is upset that the Legion in Springdale wants a sign erected in tribute to her son removed. (CBC)
> 
> 
> The family of a Newfoundland soldier who was killed in Afghanistan says the memory of their son is being dishonoured, after being told their tribute is a hazard.
> 
> The Bouzane family donated two large tribute signs to Royal Canadian Legions in Springdale and St. Alban's last year. Now, they're being told the sign in Springdale is causing traffic problems.
> 
> Sitting at home in St. Alban's, Maureen Bouzane's eyes well up at the mention of the memorial for her son, Cpl. Stephen Bouzane, killed in 2007 at the age of 26.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sign, in St. Alban's, is one of two erected in the memory of Cpl. Stephen Bouzane, who was killed in Afghanistan in 2007. (CBC) ....
> 
> Local news reports are now stating that Dominion Command has told this legion that the sign will stay.


Here's newer version of the story:


> The Newfoundland and Labrador president of the Royal Canadian Legion says a plan to remove a memorial sign in Springdale for a soldier who died in Afghanistan is "embarassing."
> 
> The family of Cpl. Stephen Bouzane was upset when the local Legion sent the family an email, asking that the tribute be removed. It believes the tribute is a traffic hazard … even though the RCMP and the town said they haven't received any complaints.
> 
> But Thursday, provincial Legion president Aiden Crewe called the Legion in Springdale. He said the decision by the local office contradicts Legion's mission to honour veterans.
> 
> Bouzane's family told CBC News Thusday afternoon that the damage is done and the sign will still be removed on Saturday. They say the legion had a chance to fix the situation ....


Too little too late guys....


----------



## medicineman

It seems weird that they felt the need to give away free 1 year memberships to retiring CF members - last DWD I was in charge of had me filling the forms out for said member, who was actually a little reluctant abut the whole thing.  Funny, wasn't offered to me when I pulled the pin...mind you I kind of let it be known that I wasn't the slightest bit interested.  Maybe I'll grow out of it if things change, but I don't see it happening any time soon.


MM


----------



## ArmyRick

As more and more stuff comes to light, I am thinking its probably a good thing I quite the legion. I am now a former member and have no desire today (4 Feb 2012) of being one again. Too bad.


----------



## dogger1936

They should do an audit of actual numbers in each legion. Let's not count CIC as soldiers or cadets with 3 years in. Lets then see just how much of the legions branches have less than 60% Sailors, soldiers, airmen, RCMP and Goast guard (allied forces included of course). Any with less that 60% close the doors.

If we as members of the CF wish to take our places back. We have to ensure it never again slips into the hands of those who don't know the dedication of service to ones great country.

Memberships need to be revamped. Regular and reserve class A B or C (soldiers/sailors etc). RCMP Coast Guard and allied forces only.

CIC, Civilians, cadets guests only.

Close branches and restrict membership. I'll gladly drive an hour for a function if I have something in common with the people inside.


----------



## my72jeep

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> They should do an audit of actual numbers in each legion. *Let's not count CIC as soldiers* or cadets with 3 years in. Lets then see just how much of the legions branches have less than 60% Sailors, soldiers, airmen, RCMP and Goast guard (allied forces included of course). Any with less that 60% close the doors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Please explain, 50% of CIC are ex Sailors, soldiers, airmen why not count them?


----------



## dogger1936

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Please explain, 50% of CIC are ex Sailors, soldiers, airmen why not count them?



By all means count that 50% as they fit the mold. The other 50% don't. They are a youth organisation to produce better citizens. I think part of the problem is we have become too "welcoming" to all. I know I have ab out as much in common with career CIC officers as I would a boy scout leader.

Another thing...get rid of the "ladies aux." How 1950's.


----------



## my72jeep

most Legions are kept solvent only by donations from the Ladies ex.


----------



## Michael OLeary

RCL Membership Statistical Reports

Membership by Military Service (2010) - http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/MembershipStats/2010Military_Stats_e.pdf - Note that even in 2010, the RCL continues to segregate the "Militia" from the "Navy, Army, Air Force and CF." Even so, and including RCMP, "others" and "Unknown", the membership with service was about 108K. 

Compare that to a membership number of 340K (2011) - http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/MembershipStats/pdmembershipsummary.pdf

So, based on those two figures, only about 30 % of RCL members have previously served by their accounting.


----------



## my72jeep

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> . I know I have ab out as much in common with career CIC officers as I would a boy scout leader.


Hell I know we have way to many Walt's in out ranks but to paint us all with the same brush is wrong. I bet you have as much in common with 80% of the CF as you have with Joe Blow at the mall.


----------



## dogger1936

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> RCL Membership Statistical Reports
> 
> Membership by Military Service (2010) - http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/MembershipStats/2010Military_Stats_e.pdf - Note that even in 2010, the RCL continues to segregate the "Militia" from the "Navy, Army, Air Force and CF." Even so, and including RCMP, "others" and "Unknown", the membership with service was about 108K.
> 
> Compare that to a membership number of 340K (2011) - http://www.legion.ca/_PDF/MembershipStats/pdmembershipsummary.pdf
> 
> So, based on those two figures, only about 30 % of RCL members have previously served by their accounting.



Very interesting Micheal; thanks for this. I believe this illustrates the problem. Their division between militia and regular force angers me as well. Last time I checked we had these "militia" fighting and dying right beside their regular force brothers and sisters. Yet another outdated ideal from the RCL.



			
				my72jeep said:
			
		

> Hell I know we have way to many Walt's in out ranks but to paint us all with the same brush is wrong. I bet you have as much in common with 80% of the CF as you have with Joe Blow at the mall.



Fact is these places were designed by war vets for war vets. Navy Army Airforce. If your an ex service member who has joined the CIC to give back to the community; by all means come on in. If your a 30 yr old ex cadet with 12 years service in a youth program...No. You don't belong there. If your a civilian who had a great uncle serve once. You don't belong there. If your some random civi who likes having cheap drinks...you don't belong there. I know during my grandfathers generation you would have been laughed out of the legion as part of the cadet program with no other service. 

Time to get back to what the legion was all about. An inclusive club looking out for our serving brothers and sisters best interest.


----------



## dapaterson

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So, based on those two figures, only about 30 % of RCL members have previously served by their accounting.



They've served by their accounting?  Man, that's a lot of pay clerks and finance officers at the Legion!


----------



## q_1966

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Very interesting Micheal; thanks for this. I believe this illustrates the problem. Their division between militia and regular force angers me as well. Last time I checked we had these "militia" fighting and dying right beside their regular force brothers and sisters. Yet another outdated ideal from the RCL.
> 
> Fact is these places were designed by war vets for war vets. Navy Army Airforce. If your an ex service member who has joined the CIC to give back to the community; by all means come on in. If your a 30 yr old ex cadet with 12 years service in a youth program...No. You don't belong there. If your a civilian who had a great uncle serve once. You don't belong there. If your some random civi who likes having cheap drinks...you don't belong there. I know during my grandfathers generation you would have been laughed out of the legion as part of the cadet program with no other service.
> 
> Time to get back to what the legion was all about. An inclusive club looking out for our serving brothers and sisters best interest.



My friend was in Cadets, a CI and later CIC but was not eligible for military service due to medical restrictions, it is still honourable to be contributing to society in other ways. so she joined the RCL Ladies Auxiliary and wears the her legion uniform with pride, unlike most of us (myself included) who don't even show up to vote, only pay dues and drop in for a drink during Remembrance Day and maybe another 3 days in the year (I am making a concientious effort to become more involved, when work doesnt get in the way)
It is up to us to get involved, although I'm not crazy about meat draws and bingo.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

Not to hi-jack but I just learned from my father that Branch 154 (Ogden) in Calgary will be closing due to bankruptcy this month.

This is the third building for this legion, the second being built from the Shepard BCATP WO's and Sgt's mess. In the late 70's early 80's the current location was built. It boasts 2 banquet halls, a members canteen, a public lounge, and an 8 sheet curling rink on the second floor.  This facility has been mortgaged and paid off twice and they can now no longer afford the mortgage. As I really only have the chance to enter the facility about 3 times a year when I visit home I notice a large amount of bloody expensive security systems (uneccessary in my mind), televisions that didnt need replacing and others.  The branch membership would love to see a forensic audit but cannot afford it. Dominion Command replaced the Exec last summer.  

This folks is a shame, truly a shame. Hell the curling rink could sustain the place all year.  It just saddens me to see this particular icon die off after its inception by during the days of War Production at the Ogden CPR yards


----------



## q_1966

Curling rink, I'm impressed, sad that it is closing


----------



## Zartan

So that's what they were hiding there! That legion is bloody huge. Now I can imagine why they can't afford the place. Of course, like you said, opening up the curling rink could have sufficed. I wouldn't doubt it. However, that was also the least "open" looking legion I've ever been by. Others have signs to welcome people in... others also have windows


----------



## q_1966

I imagine most of bldg's have been built between the 40s and 60s, built huge to support its members now dwindling away every year, expensive maintenance and heating costs that are through the roof.
Sadly Salmon Arm got rid of theirs for reasons above, it had a lovely commercial kitchen and banquet hall up stairs; that as a kid, the cadet corps would hold the annual mess dinner from, but because they switched to a one story design (kitchen was poorly set up, had all residential appliances/counter tops/half the space) and no banquet hall, meaning the bar wasn't separate, so no minors meaning here we are doing the annual mess dinner in a church basement, the people were all probably very nice but it wasn't the same.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

The key thing about the Ogden legion is the land was donated and until the building was recently re-mortgaged, it had been paid off twice. The signage could be better, agreed.  better advertising could also help. The interior paint in the canteen, while in keeping with legion colours is painfull (although that can be fixed with a paint brush). But all in all it is a great facility,  I remember years ago (close to fifteen) various organizations would rent out the halls for conferences and engage the kitchen to cater.


----------



## maniac

Fellow Veterans

I hear a lot of talk of how the RC Legion has not stepped up to advocate like it used to.  I'm not defending the organization because there is certainly some truth to that depending on where you go.  Some branches has turned into glorified bars with creative ways in spending their poppy funds.  

I'm proposing rather than complaining about the RC Legion and what it does,  join it and force change from your location.  That is what we did as we had our own group and we joined in mass and took over the executive based on ordinary membership verses their inability to vote.  You don't have to quit any advocate group you maybe a part of,  just use the RC Legion as an extension of your advocacy. 

There is no disputing the fact that the RC Legion does have a recognized voice based on it's work with WW vets,  that will not change.  I'm just saying,  knocking them for not doing something is partly our fault for not joining it and forcing our voice from their perspective.  We should have become the RC Legion perspective and voice by now.

I welcome any constructive opinion on the topic.


----------



## dogger1936

Constructive opinions on the RCL is not welcomed; regardless of how great a discussion can form from it.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> You have two choices.
> 
> Start your own Veterans Association and fight the Government, or;
> 
> Join the RCL and fight to establish a true Veteran's presence within the org, instead of letting it be taken over by a bunch of civvies.
> 
> And fight the Government.
> 
> Either way, you can quite bitching here, feeling and acting like a downtrodden weenie,
> 
> and get off your *** an do something besides ranting at people here that actually have you're best interests at heart.
> 
> I'd hate to lock a Veteran's thread, but if you don't get your head out of your ***, I will.
> 
> Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

maniac said:
			
		

> I'm proposing rather than complaining about the RC Legion and what it does,  join it and force change from your location.  That is what we did as we had our own group and we joined in mass and took over the executive based on ordinary membership verses their inability to vote.  You don't have to quit any advocate group you maybe a part of,  just use the RC Legion as an extension of your advocacy.





			
				dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Constructive opinions on the RCL is not welcomed; regardless of how great a discussion can form from it.



Smell the difference lad??


----------



## 57Chevy

Does anyone out there have an idea of how to go about opening up a Legion ?
Thanks.


----------



## dogger1936

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Smell the difference lad??



I smell the difference of opinions yes. As I said anything negatively reflecting on the legion isn't welcomed. Just informing the member he wouldn't get any info from the opposite side.

Legion down 50,000 members in the past year. Carry on.


----------



## Scott

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I smell the difference of opinions yes. As I said anything negatively reflecting on the legion isn't welcomed. Just informing the member he wouldn't get any info from the opposite side.
> 
> Legion down 50,000 members in the past year. Carry on.



No. You said constructive opinions are not welcomed, there's a difference between constructive and negative.

There are a litany of reasons the Legion numbers could be down and I would guess many of those reasons would hold the same as those for Lion's Clubs, Kinsmen, etc. But it seems you'd rather toss out that rather empty sounding number so as to evoke thoughts that it is entirely due to the Legion itself. I pay my dues but it's rather useless of me to because I visit only occasionally. But I support them still because I do not want to see the doors shut due to a lack of membership.

I have seen the changes in my local since becoming a member almost 16 years ago. I see the difference in how serving members and veterans alike are treated, I see the politics. Rather than pissing and moaning about it I also put forth positive views on them, like some of the support I have seen drummed up in the way of care packages for troops in Afghanistan (Heck, maybe YOU were a recipient of one such package, I know 2RCR sent a very nice letter of thanks to a local merchant whose involvement was shepherded by our members) and support for MFRC nights at local hockey games with troops in attendance, among other things too varied to mention.

When I discuss the aspects I see that require, IMO, improvement I also put forth the things that are working well. I've seen SFA of that from some here.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Constructive opinions on the RCL is not welcomed; regardless of how great a discussion can form from it.





			
				dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I smell the difference of opinions yes. As I said anything negatively reflecting on the legion isn't welcomed. Just informing the member he wouldn't get any info from the opposite side.
> 
> Legion down 50,000 members in the past year. Carry on.



Wrong. You just don't read enough, or read selectively searching for your own position.

There is a lot of dissenting opinion on what the Legion is about or how they go about it. Those posters also try, mostly, to offer solutions.

The difference between them and you though, is that while those opinions offer a modicum of solution, yours just come across as bleatings of a whiny bitch, offering none.

Rather than join and try affect change, you'd rather the self cathartic route of endlessly slagging what you won't educate and involve yourself in.

Carry on.


----------



## Brasidas

maniac said:
			
		

> Fellow Veterans
> 
> I hear a lot of talk of how the RC Legion has not stepped up to advocate like it used to.  I'm not defending the organization because there is certainly some truth to that depending on where you go.  Some branches has turned into glorified bars with creative ways in spending their poppy funds.
> 
> I'm proposing rather than complaining about the RC Legion and what it does,  join it and force change from your location.  That is what we did as we had our own group and we joined in mass and took over the executive based on ordinary membership verses their inability to vote.  You don't have to quit any advocate group you maybe a part of,  just use the RC Legion as an extension of your advocacy.
> 
> There is no disputing the fact that the RC Legion does have a recognized voice based on it's work with WW vets,  that will not change.  I'm just saying,  knocking them for not doing something is partly our fault for not joining it and forcing our voice from their perspective.  We should have become the RC Legion perspective and voice by now.
> 
> I welcome any constructive opinion on the topic.



As Dogger says, the Legion itself doesn't welcome constructive change. Is it possible to force constructive change from the inside? Maybe.

Is it possible for a group of veterans to storm in, hold a coup, and take over a branch? Yes. Systematically do that in branches in Edmonton, Ottawa, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Victoria, and Halifax? Probably. Do it in all the little "old boys' clubs" across the country? I don't think so.

Even with getting a mass of converts from towns with reservists, you could maybe pull it off in a branch or two in places like Red Deer.

Where the Legion's in a small town away from a base and has carved a niche for itself, I don't think you've got a prayer. And if you've only subverted a minority of the branches, what have you accomplished?

You're going to have a handful of "combined messes for veterans", serving some guys who took over from the previous executive and their friends, with a great mass of dead weight clogging up the schedule with events that have no interest to the veterans - meat draws and so forth. They'll have to serve the needs of the dead weight at least in the middle term.

What's the objective in terms of an end state? To get the Legion to actually do some effective lobbying on things that matter? I don't see a way to subvert anywhere near a majority of the legions, and negotiations with an old guard that you've slashed and burned at your own branch might be... less than friendly. You could certainly get some credentials like "President of the Edmonton Kingsway Branch Legion" for quotes in the paper, and the national executive might have difficulty damning you. For a united organization directly lobbying the government, I don't see it.

To keep things from fizzling, you'd have to effectively take over a private club, run it, appeal to any veterans in the local area to support it, negotiate with the dead weight, actually provide something to the veterans of various demographics, and groom replacements to eventually take over your position in pulling off the balancing act.

The existing culture has more than just "not stepped up to advocate"; it was hostile towards anybody after WW2 and certainly post-Korea. My dad's not going to suddenly start showing up at the legion fifteen years after retirement, nor are a lot of cold war guys. You're going to be herding cats to change legion culture at a local level, and if its just you and and a handful of friends, you've got to expand through friends of friends like crazy to keep control after the coup.

All that work just to have a bar, a title, and a little piece of a brand name. Is soaking up your time and effort into a bar that may not be of interest to the folks you're trying to indirectly serve, isn't there a better use for our time?

I don't want a bar. I'm getting married, I'm starting a new job, and I want a life. Would I support a veteran's advocacy group by doing a discrete, manageable amount of legwork? Sure. Would I invest every waking minute spending my credit with family and friends to try to subvert an organization that I know that veterans working together across the country couldn't take over half of? No.


----------



## dogger1936

recceguy said:
			
		

> Wrong. You just don't read enough, or read selectively searching for your own position.
> 
> There is a lot of dissenting opinion on what the Legion is about or how they go about it. Those posters also try, mostly, to offer solutions.
> 
> The difference between them and you though, is that while those opinions offer a modicum of solution, yours just come across as bleatings of a whiny *****, offering none.
> 
> Rather than join and try affect change, you'd rather the self cathartic route of endlessly slagging what you won't educate and involve yourself in.
> 
> Carry on.



Actually I'm quite involved in a veterans Advocacy group. And I see the legion making thing difficult for other groups trying to speak out (I.E pat Varga speaking right away to media about how great cutting red tap for medical travel mentioned in parliament as a "look at us...see we are doing great" according to Pat Varga ( who congradulated the change although it again divides Vet's into groups) and the VETERANS THE LEGION represents by Minister Blaney yesterday).

I have plenty of solutions; one is getting the word out about the legions massive failures. It's making it's own bed.

As for being a whiney bitch I appreciate the personal nature of the comment and respect your opinion. Internet tough guys are very impressive.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Internet tough guys are very impressive.



Wow, I'm charmed. Thanks.  :-*


----------



## dogger1936

maniac said:
			
		

> Fellow Veterans
> 
> I hear a lot of talk of how the RC Legion has not stepped up to advocate like it used to.  I'm not defending the organization because there is certainly some truth to that depending on where you go.  Some branches has turned into glorified bars with creative ways in spending their poppy funds.



I have some pic's of IIRC a legion in Barry or Owen sound area handing over legion poppy funds to help out their local fire hall.  While I appreciate the thought of helping out a emergency service I have doubts that's what people contributing to the poppy fund think their money is being spent on. Why not throw some money toward Equitas etc to HELP VETERANS. how about helping the homeless veteran issue we currently have?

An example from one legion news site:

2012 Poppy Campaign
Branch XX is gearing up for the upcoming poppy campaign. The weekends of October 28/29 and November 4/5 will be crucial to our campaign. The funds raised are used to support local veterans and their dependants. _*In addition, just a few of the other areas where poppy funds are spent, include the following: equipment for hospitals and fire department; local cadets and scholarships for local students who have a connection with someone who is serving or who has served in our armed forces.*_ To accomplish our objectives, of course we must call on volunteers from our members. When we joined the legion we all agreed to assist in Legion activities. I am therefore calling on our membership to come out and support our campaign either by serving on our committee or by volunteering as canvassers with trays of poppies for donations.
Anyone willing to assist may contact me as follows:
XXXXXXXXXXXXX, Poppy Campaign
Phone: xxx-xxxx E-mail: XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXX.xx

Personally I think there are areas to support veterans hurting much more than the local firehalls.

_- Mod edit to remove branch/contact details - no point painting one branch/person if this isn't the only branch doing this -_


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Because, as I believe, the Legion isn't supposed to be all about "gimme, gimme, gimme".

Novel concept for some it seems......


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Actually I'm quite involved in a veterans Advocacy group. And I see the legion making thing difficult for other groups trying to speak out (I.E pat Varga speaking right away to media about how great cutting red tap for medical travel mentioned in parliament as a "look at us...see we are doing great" according to Pat Varga ( who congradulated the change although it again divides Vet's into groups) and the VETERANS THE LEGION represents by Minister Blaney yesterday).
> 
> I have plenty of solutions; one is getting the word out about the legions massive failures. It's making it's own bed.




Gee, yesterday you thought it was a good announcement.



			
				dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Not handing in receipts after attending a medical appointment booked by VAC makes sense. It cuts down on the office workload hunting down receipts from people; when you already know they went to the appointment.
> 
> Not big news, but hopefully it will cut down on the work of the case managers in VAC.


----------



## Scott

Could it be because the people donating want to see the funds go that direction? And that if it were for veterans ONLY that donations might fall off? 

I know that two of the fire departments I belonged to were not a one way door for funding: we supported Cadets, seniors, the odd kid who needed braces whose parents didn't have the funds. Hell, one time we went and roofed a veterans house for him. I know because I was a part of those motions and I also had to give my ascent, as a member of the executive, to release the funds required.

Again, you throw this stuff out there but I find it rather incomplete.

SHOW ME the whole story, not just the side YOU want put across because you have such a frigging hard on for the Legion. I know for a fact there are those out there who will do just that on a case by case basis, some are members of this site, and I listen to them with intent. I do not listen to this tripe because it's old.


----------



## Scott

It could also be that there are members of the Legion who serve as firefighters. I can count about a dozen that I wore boots alongside. They knew the needs and they also knew the firefighters would be there for them if they ever needed them. Like the time our Legion flooded, or the numerous times they needed flags changed, or when we installed the new flagpole to rid ourselves of having to use the ladder truck every time they wanted the flag changed out.

And so on.


----------



## dogger1936

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Because, as I believe, the Legion isn't supposed to be all about "gimme, gimme, gimme".
> 
> Novel concept for some it seems......



No not at all. However a poppy fund should be to support veterans in any capacity should it not? Ask a civilian who purchases a poppy aside from remembrance where they assume their money goes. I'm willing to bet the local fire hall etc doesn't come up or get mentioned.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Gee, yesterday you thought it was a good announcement.



Keep reading down the thread and you'll find other comments where more information evolves; thus the change of opinion....I even mentioned it on the same thread you just quoted. While it seemed to be a good initiative; it clearly divides veterans into more groups again.  The legion should get all the facts before giving the big thumbs up to the current government. If that means waiting for the facts that the government isn't giving them so be it.

I'll take a little hiatus from posting; as obviously I've ruffled some feathers here. 

Edit to add: No doubt Mr Bruyea says it better
http://www.seanbruyea.com/2007/06/royal-canadian-legion-rapidly-losing-its-connectivity-to-veteran-community/


----------



## Scott

Aw, now you're taking your ball and going home because you think you've "ruffled feathers"? Grow up dude.

I asked you, a couple of times, to refrain from posting snippets of info like they were the gospel, especially when you know they are not. If you want *balanced and reasoned discussion* then you have to choose to participate in it and not just take repeated potshots.

You say the Legion should get all of the facts? I challenge you to do the same.

Note: I am not a Legion apologist, I believe the problems are as real as they get. I am not, however, going to throw the baby out with the bathwater or subscribe to uninformed rhetoric where only half of the info, or even less in some of these cases, is being put across.

Anytime you choose to grow up a little I'll be here waiting for that balanced and reasoned discussion - not the accusations that people are getting their feathers ruffled.


----------



## Scott

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> No not at all. However a poppy fund should be to support veterans in any capacity should it not? Ask a civilian who purchases a poppy aside from remembrance where they assume their money goes. I'm willing to bet the local fire hall etc doesn't come up or get mentioned.



You're making assumptions to go along with your generalizations. You're full of it. I know for a fact (again, I have those) that the fire hall, the hockey club, Cadets, coffee fund, etc. all get mentioned to poppy buyers by the folks behind the drive, at least with my Branch.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Danjanou a while back, got more involved with his local legion.  I saw him making the change from within.  I have been a big time basher of the Legion, just look at this thread, but I ahve come to the descision that you must force change, not talk about it.  

When he gets back from their convention, I am going down to his branch and submitting my application, which is all filled out.

Let the games begin!!!  >


----------



## Scott

Ogami Itto said:
			
		

> Danjanou a while back, got more involved with his local legion.  I saw him making the change from within.  I have been a big time basher of the Legion, just look at this thread, but I ahve come to the descision that you must force change, not talk about it.
> 
> When he gets back from their convention, I am going down to his branch and submitting my application, which is all filled out.
> 
> Let the games begin!!!  >



This I can agree with. No rhetoric. A man with a plan.

Give 'er.


----------



## Journeyman

Ogami Itto said:
			
		

> Danjanou a while back, got more involved with his local legion.  I saw him making the change from within.  I have been a big time basher of the Legion....


Ah, well I prefer to be a basher of Danjanou -- _sometimes_, he even deserves it.   :nod:



No this isn't spam; this post contributes value equal to several others here.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Slightly off topic, but when I joined the Legion we had to stand up and swear an oath that mentioned something about the Orange Order or some such manifestation of imperial Protestantism. Yes, really. My last tour in NI had been a couple of years before that time, so naturally it tweaked my interest.

Do they still do that? I thought it was bizarre and slightly creepy and told the old duffer at the front as much (which caused him to shake with indignation to the extent hat the dandruff fell off his blazer  ;D).


----------



## Brasidas

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Slightly off topic, but when I joined the Legion we had to stand up and swear an oath that mentioned something about the Orange Order or some such manifestation of imperial Protestantism.



Was this in some Ulster Scot corner of southern Ontario?


----------



## Danjanou

How's that for karma look what thread is active again and it's not even November the usual time for the start of  the annual ritual lets bash the RCL here on milnet.

As noted I'm actually a delegate at the National convention and it's a learning experience for one who's been in the RCL less than 5 years and for better or worse went from sitting at the back of the room bitching to stepping up and serving on the executive at Branch and Zone levels.

Lot of same ole same ole crap going on here and it was a struggle last night from tossing a couple of delegates off the Dartmouth ferry, and two of them were Branch Presidents.  Some positive signs too.  I had a smoke break with a local member with a tour in Afghanistan in 09 and if he's thirty I'll eat my convention pass. If he's willing to come inside the tent and piss outside, then I can in here too for now.

Lot of speeches VAC Minister , the CDS, lots of promises being made a and I'm taking notes and holding them to it. Change here is glacial but like Recce put it you can either ***** and moan or actually get off your *** and try and fix the problem. I'm still not sure that the RCL is fixable yet but intend to find out. 

Much as I'd like to debate more now, I need to finish this beer and get back to my room and change. I intend to spend the night chatting with other delegates  over a few pints and learn and get input and ideas. 

Give me a day or two to summarize all this  and I'll put up some detailed after action report.

Oh yeah JM JM frig off bro ;D


----------



## maniac

Well I must admit this is a spirited thread.  I was just saying that if you don't like what you see in there,  like the last post says,  join it to change it.  Blaming the Legion for it's inaction isn't productive.  You are entitled to one year free membership at large that I took advantage of and continued the years after.  Admittedly, our Legion is close to a super base and with a strong membership or veterans.  Your brothers in arms from wars past WILL accept you.


----------



## Journeyman

maniac said:
			
		

> Your brothers in arms from wars past WILL accept you.


I think that a major cause of bitchin' here is that the preponderance of Legion members are _not_ brothers in arms.


----------



## Danjanou

well said JM. Maniac if you're in halifax now PM and we can meet and grab a beer or coffee and compare notes brother .


----------



## Gronk

I'll be the first to admit that the Legion as a whole has made some serious mistakes, but as the largest veterans organization in Canada, it has the strongest voice in advocating for veterans. Now that it is working with other vet's orgs, it's voice is stronger still. We, as veterans, need to use this voice to bring beneficial change to veteran's lives. The team is stronger than the individual.
   The Legion's response to many issues has been weak, but it has brought real benefit to a lot of veteran's lives. I am a veteran whose life is better because of a Legion funded program, the Veterans Transition Program. This program doesn't take a dime fr VAC, it is entirely funded by the Legion. It is a great help to those suffering fr emotional trauma, PTSD, OSI and is going national. My branch has spent about $50 000 on care pkgs for troops overseas as part of our SOT Campaign. We have lobbied the local MP on behalf of Yukon vets, and even bought groceries for vets in need.
   I feel I have brought change to vets in the Yukon by working to change the Legion from within. If you think the Legion is not doing enough for vets, then join and help make the changes. Run for Executive, volunteer, or at the very least, let your opinions be known at a meeting.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hey Mike Bobbitt,

I think someone is trying to mow your lawn!!

http://legion.ca/_PDF/Convention/YELLOW_BOOK_2012_E.pdf


"*VIRTUAL LEGION*


The Committee has both introduced and been a strong proponent of the Virtual Legion concept that would allow modern day veterans an electronic forum to socialize and provide a voice under the umbrella of the Legion. As a result the Legion has rethought its current strategy of veteran solidarity in regard to their current model of branch membership and is moving forward to provide an additional environment that will attract the veteran of today.

A Virtual Legion branch will encompass an electronic social network that meets the requirement of the current Legion independent branch in that it would fall under Dominion Command. It will allows veteran’s to interrelate, associate, voice concerns, contribute and find help all within their comfort zones and skill level. The programs general characteristics are:
• Secure closed forum(s).
• Veteran only.
• Registered membership required to participate.
• Monitored under the guidance of the General By-Laws.
• Centralised control.
• Individual branches based on missions, units, sqns, commissioned ships with a start point
of 1968.
• Additional branches prior to 1968 possible upon request and substantiation.
• Membership in specific branches based on previous association.

The Virtual Legion will have a military look and feel to it. It will reflect the ships, units, squadrons, and missions that the CF currently has and has participated in respectively. It will be designed to allow the familiarity that those that served can only truly understand.The initial development phase is underway with an independent company contracted to produce the Virtual Legion platform under the guidance of the Legion."


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Maybe we'll get lucky and they will take over thr recruiting forums...... ;D


----------



## 57Chevy

Thanks for that info Ogami Itto. Sounds like a great idea for The Legion :yellow:

 Quoting myself here...



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Does anyone out there have an idea of how to go about opening up a Legion ?
> Thanks.



After reading the thread since I posted, changing (the what's wrong with ?) 
about The Legion from the inside has to be the answer. 
I suppose opening one up must be much harder, unless you already own a bar.  
Cheers


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Was this in some Ulster Scot corner of southern Ontario?



No, West Vancouver if you can believe it.


----------



## PuckChaser

Ogami Itto said:
			
		

> Hey Mike Bobbitt,
> 
> I think someone is trying to mow your lawn!!
> 
> http://legion.ca/_PDF/Convention/YELLOW_BOOK_2012_E.pdf



I think thats a great way to get more younger veterans involved, and certainly peeked my interest.


----------



## sheikyerbouti

W. Van legion was definitely a closed environment the last time I checked them out.


 With respect to establishing a Legion Branch. It is a very difficult task to accomplish as there is a minimum number of Charter members necessary to bring forward a petition to zone command. Provided an initial approval were to be given, the Charter members would then be required to present a business model to Provincial command. Based upon their recommendation, the approval would then be required from Dominion command. (this would literally take many months, if not years)

 This process is very long and arduous, subject to challenge at all levels of command and be easily derailed by some narrow minded characters (both individual and executive).

 The easiest thing to do would be to identify struggling branches, take over the executive and then do whatever you feel like. Ordinary members (proven Veteran service) are accorded special privileges, the most important being the relative ease with which they can be elected to positions of power within a very short period of time. This second option is most feasible as it allows for usage of existing infrastructure, transfer of bar licencing and retention of staff.

 Caveats abound though, Municipalities are killing off branches with taxes, staff costs can be outrageous (union seniority, benefits, etc.), distributors are apprehensive of providing credit and the existing locales can be dangerously close to condemnation due to a lack of maintenance. Back taxes are another unspoken issue which could rear its' ugly head.


 In the Lower Mainland a major rejuvenation is ongoing but without involvement from new/young members, the re-developments are largely being done as glorified retirement homes which cater to the needs of the aged clientele and older members who set the development agenda (it's a pain in the *** to deal with sometimes but the slow play is working for my branch and for others in the Lower Mainland). Some branches are set to fail soon, some have succeeded and some upcoming projects are setting the tone for future Legion presence in B.C.

  It is up to the existing and future membership to determine the shape of service clubs in the years to come, the future is still malleable in my opinion...



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I think thats a great way to get more younger veterans involved, and certainly peeked my interest.



 Anything to do with Dominion command and computers will mean guaranteed failure. Dominion still spends hundreds of thousands on stamps for crying out loud. The best recourse would be to support causes such as Milnet.ca. Ottawa has their head up their arse when it comes to dynamic ideas such as this.


----------



## Danjanou

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Maybe we'll get lucky and they will take over the recruiting forums...... ;D



I asked, even they're not that stupid.  8)

Seriously this was a big recurring theme during the convention. Updating and making the RCL and various Provincial, District, Branch web sites earlier to use. Twitter and facebook presence. This cyber site to join initially. Automated annual renewal maybe with credit cards etc. The web store is already up and running. 

There was a lot of discussion to have all the manuals online so they could be downloaded as opposed to printed copies. This made sense as having them all on flash drive at a meeting beats dragging in tons of books just in case you need to look something.

I saw a bit of opposition to this from the old guard, but to be honest they're fighting a rear guard action. The Legion will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.


----------



## daftandbarmy

sheikyerbouti said:
			
		

> W. Van legion was definitely a closed environment the last time I checked them out.
> 
> 
> With respect to establishing a Legion Branch. It is a very difficult task to accomplish as there is a minimum number of Charter members necessary to bring forward a petition to zone command. Provided an initial approval were to be given, the Charter members would then be required to present a business model to Provincial command. Based upon their recommendation, the approval would then be required from Dominion command. (this would literally take many months, if not years)
> 
> This process is very long and arduous, subject to challenge at all levels of command and be easily derailed by some narrow minded characters (both individual and executive).
> 
> The easiest thing to do would be to identify struggling branches, take over the executive and then do whatever you feel like. Ordinary members (proven Veteran service) are accorded special privileges, the most important being the relative ease with which they can be elected to positions of power within a very short period of time. This second option is most feasible as it allows for usage of existing infrastructure, transfer of bar licencing and retention of staff.
> 
> Caveats abound though, Municipalities are killing off branches with taxes, staff costs can be outrageous (union seniority, benefits, etc.), distributors are apprehensive of providing credit and the existing locales can be dangerously close to condemnation due to a lack of maintenance. Back taxes are another unspoken issue which could rear its' ugly head.
> 
> 
> In the Lower Mainland a major rejuvenation is ongoing but without involvement from new/young members, the re-developments are largely being done as glorified retirement homes which cater to the needs of the aged clientele and older members who set the development agenda (it's a pain in the *** to deal with sometimes but the slow play is working for my branch and for others in the Lower Mainland). Some branches are set to fail soon, some have succeeded and some upcoming projects are setting the tone for future Legion presence in B.C.
> 
> It is up to the existing and future membership to determine the shape of service clubs in the years to come, the future is still malleable in my opinion...
> 
> Anything to do with Dominion command and computers will mean guaranteed failure. Dominion still spends hundreds of thousands on stamps for crying out loud. The best recourse would be to support causes such as Milnet.ca. Ottawa has their head up their arse when it comes to dynamic ideas such as this.



Would it make sense to try and privatize the Legion in some way? 

They serve a specific demographic: baby boomers (the largest demographic population ever, and gettting much older) so there may be a business case to be made there to run them like any other chain targeting over 50s.

Hey, I think I just figured out my 'Dragon's Den' idea!


----------



## Danjanou

Now that's an episode of Dragon's Den I'd watch 8)

Someone has posted a link to the Yellow Book, and the fact that this and other sites like FB were following the convention, came up on the floor the last day. Some of the Old Guard I think were not pleased by that either BTWW. It's worth a look at, any questions re some of the resolutions, post questions here and I'll look through my version with notes written in it and try and elaborate including which ones passed.


----------



## dogger1936

Danjanou

Aside from the yellow book describing the topic's is there any minutes recorded or video of the conference? Just looking to see what was discussed in detail by whom.

Also what is the conference facebook link?

Thanks


----------



## Danjanou

Dogger no convention FB link that I know of. AFAIK the idea of getting more into social media is somthing they're working on and some branches etc already have websites both officila RCL ones and FB ones.

There is a note in the convention pkge re a DVD available, not sure it thats all 3 days of debate or just the ceremonial stuff parade, opening and closing ceremonies, guest speakers etc. Mind it's probably the later. Anything in particular you're looking for?


----------



## dogger1936

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Dogger no convention FB link that I know of. AFAIK the idea of getting more into social media is somthing they're working on and some branches etc already have websites both officila RCL ones and FB ones.
> 
> There is a note in the convention pkge re a DVD available, not sure it thats all 3 days of debate or just the ceremonial stuff parade, opening and closing ceremonies, guest speakers etc. Mind it's probably the later. Anything in particular you're looking for?



Roger that thanks for the info.

Anything in regards to NVC mentioned by any of the guest speakers (Gen Natynchuck, Minister Blaney, Commarades in the executive.) 

And of course any promises mentioned!


----------



## Danjanou

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Roger that thanks for the info.
> 
> Anything in regards to NVC mentioned by any of the guest speakers (Gen Natynchuck, Minister Blaney, Commarades in the executive.)
> 
> And of course any promises mentioned!




Walt was more of a stir up the tropps speech, the Ministers and othere wer ealong the lines of the NVC is a work in progress and will be updated and modified.

The following resolutions were passed. That does not mean that anything more than a strong letter to VAC maybe but we’ll see.  (I’ve just typed out the titles etc, details in the yellow book link starting on page 125)
Addition of more vets on the Veterans Appeal Board

Request for Employer tax credits for hiring vets

New vet photo ID card

Offset of VAC disability pension by SSIP long term disability

Environmental exposure eligibility (Agent Orange. Depleted uranium etc

Death benefit if death attributable to service retroactive to 2006

$1500 funding to engage  financial advisors to assist injured vets with planning

Earnings loss for reservists to be same as regulars, minimum $40,000.00 up from present $24,300.00

Extension of education assistant program to children and families

Attendance allowance in NVC

Rationalization of eligibility criteria for VIP

VIP for RCMP 

VIP for Frail veterans 

Extension of VIP to survivors Portability of VIP services (reimbursement of condo fees)

Extend legacy care program 

Immediate increase in funeral and burial benefits 

Increase in survivor estate exemption

Funding for veteran transition program treatment

Use of poppy fund for veteran transition programs (RCL not VAC so this is done deal)

Oh yeah they also approved petitioning the Govt for that dammed Volunteer Service medal ( mini CD) for 3 years’ service


----------



## dogger1936

Thanks for the info. Did the NVC lawsuit make any form of discussion?


----------



## Danjanou

Sorry for the delay nice day down here and went to Peggy's Cove to play tourist.  Yeah dogger it came up a lot, general opinion on the floor and more importantly in the timmies line up and outside on smoke breaks ( more work done in those two places) is that the Gov't decision not to challenge it at all is a positive and proof that VAC undestand the NVC needs work. As was said many times it's a living (meaning changeable) document.


----------



## dogger1936

Danjanou said:
			
		

> is that the Gov't decision not to challenge it at all is a positive and proof that VAC undestand the NVC needs work. As was said many times it's a living (meaning changeable) document.



Danjanou;

You have truly made my day with that statement. Sounds like this is finally reaching the critical mass that was required. Excellent.

Good to hear the general consensus on the floor as well.

3 year medal...well... that's another thread I'm certain.

I read about the transition program VIA other means yesterday. THIS is the stuff I love to see. 

Cheers


----------



## Danjanou

Dogger there were 1075 delegates there representing 330,000+ Legion members. That's a lot of votes for any party and most of those people are older and more politically active than the average Canadian. I think the Minister is well aware of that.


----------



## dogger1936

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Dogger there were 1075 delegates there representing 330,000+ Legion members. That's a lot of votes for any party and most of those people are older and more politically active than the average Canadian. I think the Minister is well aware of that.



That's an excellent point actually I had not considered. And very true with regards to the political activism.

Aside from here I have not seen anything IRT the minister saying that the current government would not fight the current lawsuit put forward IRT the NVC.

Maybe the legion should prompt them with an announcement to their members on this wonderful announcement. Personally I think this would be a huge announcement from the legion.


----------



## Danjanou

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Maybe the legion should prompt them with an announcement to their members on this wonderful announcement. Personally I think this would be a huge announcement from the legion.



wait for it, probably be here soon

http://www.legion.ca/Home/NewsRoom_e.cfm


----------



## Nemo888

Dannanou they have been talking about these things for years. Since  at least 2007. I  even have emails from Peter MacKay in 2010. More of the same old two faced bull crap.

I was a fly on the wall when the NVC was being pushed through. Never expected to be one of the ones affected. The bean counters were saying that Veterans benefits would cost more than prosecuting the actual war. So they slashed them to hell.  We didn't matter then and now we only get lip service. Why are even the most basic and fair changes taking over five years? _*The war is almost ove*_r. They are trying to out wait us. The game is to tell you what you need to be told to shut up and go away.  They make this announcement EVERY year.

If they were actually sincere  the NVC never would have existed in the first place.  Everyone who mattered knew the score. Hence the huge info ops to make it go down easy. Living Charter was getting a bit old in 2007. Now it's a slap in the face with a great big d!¢%.


----------



## Danjanou

Not disagreeing with you Nemo, just reporting what I was given.  I'm  just starting  to get involved with  the RCL.  Don't worry I'm quite capable of seperating bovine excrement from promises and if presented with the same ole same ole stuff again will respond appropriately.


----------



## dogger1936

I've sent this tidbit of the ministers "we will not challenge" along a few channels. Hopefully the people I've emailed already know and are getting ready to end this mess.

We will see.


----------



## dogger1936

Still nothing....

Maybe it's just me being accustom to instant dissemination of information that many would deem very important..... or maybe they need to work on their communication department.

I contacted the Equitas Society and Miller-Thomson who also aside from directing them to this link had heard nothing of it.

Maybe there is something I'm missing; but isn't this the biggest issue with the NVC to date?
Does the RCL just not understand the issue/ what great news this is?

Or maybe I'm missing something here.


----------



## Nemo888

The Legions silence is deafening. So much for their empty promises. They did finally get in the news again though.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/08/18/20115711.html

Legion sorry for racist 'joke'  
By QMI AGENCY 

(LUKE HENDRY/QMI AGENCY files) 

The Royal Canadian Legion apologized profusely Friday for including a racist 'joke' in a recent newsletter published by its branch in Cranbrook, B.C. 

The 'joke' begins with two hunters in northern Saskatchewan when "an Indian runs across the field," the Aboriginal People's Television Network (APTN) reports. The Saskatchewan hunter aims and shoots the "Indian" dead. The Alberta hunter expresses shock, but the Saskatchewan hunter tells him it's legal in the province. 

Later, the Alberta hunter buys beer and puts it on the roof of his truck when "an Indian runs by, grabs the beer and runs away." The Alberta hunter then pulls out a pistol and shoots the person dead. 

He's later arrested by an RCMP officer who tells him that it's illegal to use "bait" when shooting "Indians" in Saskatchewan. 

More at the link.


----------



## Kat Stevens

holy shit...


----------



## Scott

:facepalm:


----------



## aesop081

C'mon, it's a little funny. I laughed.


----------



## Kat Stevens

I laughed too... when I heard it in the mess 25 years ago.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Good thing the Indian wasn't wearing a non legion approved poppy...


----------



## krustyrl

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Good thing the Indian wasn't wear a non legion approved poppy.



BaaaZZingg... good one.!     :nod:


----------



## Danjanou

Why the hell am I not surprised.


----------



## dogger1936

Danjanou said:
			
		

> wait for it, probably be here soon
> 
> http://www.legion.ca/Home/NewsRoom_e.cfm



A few months later.....


----------



## Danjanou

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> A few months later.....



ok so I was being optomistic obviously rewriting the rules for the meat spins is a higher priority.  :They have gone into full CYA mode over the joke on thier web page.


----------



## The Bread Guy

One NDP MP's solution to helping vets, from the House of Commons yesterday (highlights mine) .....


> *Mr. John Rafferty (Thunder Bay—Rainy River, NDP):*  Mr. Speaker, I rise today to thank our veterans and active military personnel and their families for their sacrifices in defence of Canada and our values.
> 
> New Democrats have always fought for improved rights for those who serve our country. We fought for DND and RCMP personnel to end the pension clawback. Together we succeeded.
> 
> This recent victory is to be celebrated, but clearly our work is not finished when it comes to making sure that our veterans and their families are able to live and retire in dignity.
> 
> It is our duty to ensure that every veteran who has served our country is afforded a dignified burial. That is not the case today, as 70% of applicants are refused access to the last post program, which is supposed to ensure that even our least fortunate veterans receive a dignified burial. New Democrats will continue to fight today in this place to change that.
> 
> *Moving forward I will soon table a motion calling on the federal government to invest in the physical infrastructure of the branches of the Royal Canadian Legion to ensure they remain a comfortable and safe haven for members.
> 
> To our veterans and members, ladies auxiliary, friends and families of Royal Canadian Legion branches in my riding and right across Canada, I send my thanks for strengthening our communities.* Lest we forget.


----------



## Edward Campbell

And this explains the RCL's main problem:



			
				Pieman said:
			
		

> ...
> As for the Legion, I joined initially but I  found quite a large age gap between most members and myself, and I did not feel comfortable there. Perhaps I will get more involved in the future, but for now I don't have much of a connection with it. I have been more involved with the Military Museum so far, interacting with some of the library research members who are collecting information on Afghanistan etc.



Pieman wants to associate with vets like himself, wants to explain his war, but the RCL, at *some* local, individual branches, isn't willing or able to "make room" for him ~ maybe because some branches have very few actual vets any more, they have become "service clubs" and are run by people with little or no experience in the military, much less in war.


----------



## Bluebulldog

Funny how this thread gets revived so close to 11 Nov.

E.R. is quite right. Part of the issue the RCL has, is the failure to engage younger CF personnel. Euchre Tourneys, and darts with a glass of Labatts 50 isn't exactly a real draw ( and unfortunately is how most folks perceive RCL activities outside of 11 Nov).

Having said that, I happened by our local branch on behalf of a service club I belong to, to purchase a wreath for the cenotaph this Sun, and the folks I spoke to while there were friendly, welcoming, and quite personable. They told me about some of the unpcoming events, and things that they're doing locally, and I was quite impressed. 

Long story short.......I laid my money on the counter and filled out my application for membership.

Now I just turned 40....so maybe I'm starting to see the allure of euchre, darts, and Labatts 50?


----------



## my72jeep

Don't knock the 50, A bad bottle of 50 is still better than a good bottle of Export, and BTW my Branch doesn't stock 50. Thank god.


----------



## dapaterson

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Don't knock the 50, A bad bottle of 50 is still better than a good bottle of Export, and BTW my Branch doesn't stock 50. Thank god.



Export vs 50 is like moose piss vs horse piss.  Regardless of the choice, it's still just piss.


----------



## ModlrMike

Another legion closes. This time due to a membership too old to carry on:

Last Remembrance Day for Mynarski branch

This year’s Remembrance Day will be a particularly sombre occasion for members of the  Royal Canadian Legion Andrew Mynarski VC Branch 34.
 In addition to acknowledging the loss of fallen comrades, Legion members will be mourning the impending closure of the Main Street branch. It is scheduled to close its doors at the end of this year after more than six decades of service.

More at link.


----------



## Danjanou

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Another legion closes. This time due to a membership too old to carry on:
> 
> Last Remembrance Day for Mynarski branch
> 
> This year’s Remembrance Day will be a particularly sombre occasion for members of the  Royal Canadian Legion Andrew Mynarski VC Branch 34.
> In addition to acknowledging the loss of fallen comrades, Legion members will be mourning the impending closure of the Main Street branch. It is scheduled to close its doors at the end of this year after more than six decades of service.
> 
> More at link.



Not surprisedby this at all. Another case of we don't want anyone who served after 1945 to join and guess what apparently you're not going to live forever. I can think of several local branches in Toronto with the same/attitude problems that will probably go under in the next few years.


----------



## Michael OLeary

So, no other branches close by they could have amalgamated with?

I guess Winnipeg just couldn't maintain 17 branches, I guess 16 will have to do.

http://branches.legion.ca/BrAction.cfm?CommandName=04


----------



## Danjanou

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So, no other branches close by they could have amalgamated with?
> 
> I guess Winnipeg just couldn't maintain 17 branches, I guess 16 will have to do.
> 
> http://branches.legion.ca/BrAction.cfm?CommandName=04



Amalgamate but but that means someone would have to give up being grand high poobaah in charge. It's kind of like suggesting amalgamation in the Molitia, No L/Col wants to give up being CO of his 20 man Bn. it will never happen. Full steam ahead and ignore that tiny iceberg off the starboard bow.  :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, while memberships shrink and branches close instead of merge, we have this.....


> Roy is a saxophone player, and the rumour about Roy that has been rolling around the shores of Lake Chapala, a Mexican retirement hub for Canadian snowbirds, is that he is the man responsible for the iconic party-song: “Tequila.”
> 
> “That is our understanding,” Sam Corbeil says. “Roy is a very talented musician, I will say that. But, you know, I’m always a little suspect about whether the ‘Tequila’ story is a truth or not.”
> 
> What is a fact, for Sam Corbeil, whose actual name is Mary Beth, though everybody around Lake Chapala knows her as Sam, is that about 50 Canadian retirees living beside the largest lake in Mexico — where it is sunny and warm every single day from May until June — were having a fiesta at the local golf club on Thursday.
> 
> The Canadian-consul general in Guadalajara was invited. Roy and his band were playing while the assembled guests were toasting a Canadian first: the formal opening of a Royal Canadian Legion branch — in Lake Chapala, Mexico.
> 
> “The American Legion have two branches here,” says Sam’s husband, Frank, whose real name is Frank, and who served three years with the Canadian airborne medical corps in the early 1960s. “The Americans were doing lots of activities and they would involve us, just to be nice, but we felt we wanted our own Legion.
> 
> “We wanted to focus on the things that were important to Canadians — Canada Day, Remembrance Day — and we wanted to be active in this community without simply being an adjunct to the Americans.” ....


----------



## Kat Stevens

We had an entire corps of airborne medics?  Where did they go?  Talk about your radical cuts to healthcare.


----------



## Danjanou

Well now I know what Branch I'll be transferring my membership to when I retire.  8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> One NDP MP's solution to helping vets, from the House of Commons yesterday (highlights mine) .....
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. John Rafferty (Thunder Bay—Rainy River, NDP):  Mr. Speaker, I rise today to thank our veterans and active military personnel and their families for their sacrifices in defence of Canada and our values.
> 
> New Democrats have always fought for improved rights for those who serve our country. We fought for DND and RCMP personnel to end the pension clawback. Together we succeeded.
> 
> This recent victory is to be celebrated, but clearly our work is not finished when it comes to making sure that our veterans and their families are able to live and retire in dignity.
> 
> It is our duty to ensure that every veteran who has served our country is afforded a dignified burial. That is not the case today, as 70% of applicants are refused access to the last post program, which is supposed to ensure that even our least fortunate veterans receive a dignified burial. New Democrats will continue to fight today in this place to change that.
> 
> Moving forward I will soon table a motion calling on the federal government to invest in the physical infrastructure of the branches of the Royal Canadian Legion to ensure they remain a comfortable and safe haven for members.
> 
> To our veterans and members, ladies auxiliary, friends and families of Royal Canadian Legion branches in my riding and right across Canada, I send my thanks for strengthening our communities. Lest we forget.
Click to expand...


The motion appears to be in motion, so to speak - from the MP's info-machine....


> Thunder Bay-Rainy River New Democrat MP John Rafferty has tabled motion M-417 in the House of Commons to establish a Royal Canadian Legion Infrastructure Renewal Fund to assist individual Legion branches across Canada in modernizing and upgrading their physical infrastructure.
> 
> “Legions have always provided a safe haven for veterans, active personnel, their families, and the public in their communities,” Rafferty stated. “However, as a nonprofit self-sustaining body they are only able to raise funds through membership dues, catering and other programs.  With community service commitments ranging from seniors support, housing projects, and youth programs, there is little left to invest in branch infrastructure, so I would like to see the federal government assist in the renewal of these proud institutions across Canada,” he said.
> 
> Rafferty’s motion M-417 calls on the Federal government consider establishing a Royal Canadian Legion Infrastructure Renewal Fund to assist individual branches in their infrastructure renewal projects. If implemented, any investment made by a Legion branch to preserve or enhance the physical infrastructure of the branch would be eligible for matching funds by the Federal government.
> 
> Rafferty said the proposed new fund would allow branches in need to allocate their funds in a more efficient manner and build a lasting presence in the communities they serve.  “Our Legions want to continue to provide the services they do in their communities, but simply aren’t able to raise enough funds to make their branches fully accessible or to make major repairs to heating ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) systems for example.  I’m hoping the federal government will take this idea and run with it to help our Legions survive and thrive throughout Canada.”


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Rafferty’s motion M-417 calls on the Federal government consider establishing a Royal Canadian Legion Infrastructure Renewal Fund


So even if the motion passes, "yes, we've _considered_ it. No."

And a proper decision that would be. If veterans and serving members won't join in sufficient numbers to keep the organization afloat, why should the government throw good money after bad.


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> why should the government throw good money after bad.



I thought that was official NDP policy? I'm sure it was craftd on one of the two tablets Jack brought down form the mountain side. 8)


----------



## ModlrMike

I wonder how many times he had to practice saying this before he stopped throwing up:



> New Democrats have always fought for improved rights for those who serve our country.


----------



## Journeyman

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I wonder how many times he had to practice saying this before he stopped throwing up:


I can only assume that he has a failing Legion in his riding. 

Perhaps some lies, like "I'll respect you in the morning" and "I promise I won't.....well, you know....whatever," come more naturally with practice.  :dunno:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I can only assume that he has a failing Legions in his riding.


FTFY


----------



## mad dog 2020

I believe the RCL may have lost it's focus.  There are so many other new assn sprouting up.  Kinda waters down the veteran base. 
In some town the Legion is the reception hall and meeting place.
One very important aspect we tend to forget is EMO response. I know in some parts of Northern Ontario it is the community kitchen, rally point and storage place for emergency supplies. No one ever knows when storm or tragedy will land, strike or happen.  I know that the Legion on St Joes island has a large provincial emergency generator so it can provide services in a storm.  
As probably mention I think some Legions have evolved into something not intended with the absence of veterans.  Or as I have seen far too often the resident staff and bar regulars are almost driving you out the door and not welcoming to guests or visitors.  RCL has to be inclusive and accommodating.  
Some Legions may need some infrastructure assistance to meet the needs of the community, especially if it was to be a staging area for emergencies, or extension of the Red Cross. The buildings are there. I know my local legion doubles as a senior centre during the day for people to socialize and be used in lieu of a meals on wheels.  Instead of building new, co-utilize existing facilities.


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I can only assume that he has a failing Legion in his riding.
> 
> Perhaps some lies, like "I'll respect you in the morning" and "I promise I won't.....well, you know....whatever," come more naturally with practice.  :dunno:





			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> FTFY



Six branches according to the RCL websites, no idea of their financial or other stability. The Provincial Command Site doesn't give a breakdown on member numbers like some other's do. Mind six seems a bit much for that area.

http://www.mbnwo.ca/index.htm

BR 219
POLISH COMBATANTS LWOW BRANCH
209 N CUMBERLAND ST
THUNDER BAY
ON
Canada
P7A 4N2
807-345-1861

BR 054
MAJOR HUGHES BRANCH
319 4TH STREET
RAINY RIVER
ON
Canada
P0W 1L0
807-852-3544

BR 149
FORT WILLIAM POLISH VETERANS BRANCH
730 SIMPSON ST
THUNDER BAY
ON
Canada
P7C 3K1
807-623-1775

BR 129
SLOVAK BRANCH
801 ATLANTIC AVE
THUNDER BAY
ON
Canada
P7C 2T3
807-623-3354

BR 006
FORT WILLIAM BRANCH
226 S MAY ST LOWER LEVEL
THUNDER BAY
ON
Canada
P7E 1B4
807-622-4822

BR 005
PORT ARTHUR BRANCH
229 VAN NORMAN ST
THUNDER BAY
ON
Canada
P7A 4B6
807-345-8232


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Six branches according to the RCL websites, no idea of their financial or other stability. The Provincial Command Site doesn't give a breakdown on member numbers like some other's do. Mind six seems a bit much for that area ....


Rainy River is a five-hour drive from Thunder Bay, so it's really only five in a city of ~110K population.

I have no idea of the financial picture or specific numbers, either, but some of this is because of the city's history (used to be two cities, so many organizations have had a north and south side presence).  That's also part of the history of why we have three Remembrance Day ceremonies (one north side outdoor, one south side indoor - both organized by different local Legion organizations - and, for the past few years, one at the First Nation) every year.  There's been "talk" of combining the three ceremonies since I was an Air Cadet (mid-1970s), but Balkan levels of factionalism/parochialism seem to be hanging on within the organizations in question.

There _used to be_ six Legions in Thunder Bay.  One older branch (BR 113 Ortona, host to the local Svc Bn cadet corps), if memory serves, went out of business and shut its door rather suddenly years ago.  That building is now being used as a residential substance abuse treatment centre.

With the remaining branches, in one case, there's a pretty significant (and reasonably busy with outside functions) Legion hall in an older residential area that's about, say, a two-minute drive from another smaller (nowhere near so busy with outside functions) hall in a nearyby older business area.

In another case, the Legion branch used to own a building (with a reasonably nice bar area and OK hall), and now only has offices in the building they sold to a non-profit organization.

With other veteran organizations, an ANAF hall that burned down a few years ago is now renting bar space at the local Labour Centre as its remaining presence.


----------



## Danjanou

You're the local expert ole buddy. Of the 5 sounds like two could be closed/amalgamated with no issues, aside from two sets of executives with their sense of entitlement would be out of "work" :

Here's the link to the membership of the 28 Toronto branches 
http://www.rcldistrictd.com/Membership.html

Five of them ( including some of the smaller ones) don't have a building/hall and rent office and/or bar space  and could easily be shuttered, aside form the fact that in at least one case I know the "Leadeship" there opposes anything that would end their legacy.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> You're the local expert ole buddy. Of the 5 sounds like two could be closed/amalgamated with no issues, aside from two sets of executives with their sense of entitlement would be out "work" :


Nice to hear from someone outside the situation saying things that have been "whispered" here for years


----------



## Danjanou

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Nice to hear from someone outside the situation saying things that have been "whispered" here for years



Magnify the problem fivefold for down here in the centre of the know universe. Mind nature has a way of resolving this situation
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/health26-eng.htm

 >


----------



## daftandbarmy

This is a good move as Cougar and Tequila have already been proven to have a symbiotic relationship.  ;D


Royal Canadian Legion opens Mexico branch

Gordon Moore, dominion president of the Royal Canadian Legion, announced the presentation of the new charter to the Lake Chapala, Mexico branch.


Read it on Global News: Global News | Royal Canadian Legion opens Mexico branch 
http://www.globalnews.ca/royal+canadian+legion+opens+mexico+branch/6442762816/story.html


----------



## Danjanou

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> This is a good move as Cougar and Tequila have already been proven to have a symbiotic relationship.  ;D
> 
> 
> Royal Canadian Legion opens Mexico branch
> 
> Gordon Moore, dominion president of the Royal Canadian Legion, announced the presentation of the new charter to the Lake Chapala, Mexico branch.
> 
> 
> Read it on Global News: Global News | Royal Canadian Legion opens Mexico branch
> http://www.globalnews.ca/royal+canadian+legion+opens+mexico+branch/6442762816/story.html



Um check about 15 posts up in this thread, or have you been supping the tequila amigo. 8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Um check about 15 posts up in this thread, or have you been supping the tequila amigo. 8)


To be fair, it was posted in a separate thread, and brought in here.

As to the supping of tequila, can't say .....


----------



## Journeyman

And he is in a different time zone; in BC it's still 1987.


----------



## daftandbarmy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> To be fair, it was posted in a separate thread, and brought in here.
> 
> As to the supping of tequila, can't say .....



Hey hey hey... since when was 'being fair' a part of the deal here? If you have to be fair to me then i can't have any fun ripping into other people either!  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Cherished photos are packed away, the dance hall is long silent and the lights are about to be turned off for the last time in the auditorium of Royal Canadian Legion Branch 001 Regina.
> 
> By the end of January, the downtown building that has welcomed veterans since 1947 must be empty.
> 
> The property has been sold and the entire rear of the building -- which houses the Atlantic Auditorium, the Lancaster Lounge and the Dieppe Cafeteria -- is to be demolished to make way for a parkade.
> 
> Only the facade will remain with room for a museum and a small watering hole.
> 
> "That sounds terrible and it just rips me right apart to lose the heritage of this in the back," said branch president Terry Duncan.
> 
> "The only heritage part, so to speak, is the front. But to lose the history of the back portion of this building, it just rips me apart. But it's got to be done if we want to be in existence for the veterans that remain, for those that are coming back and for the families of the veterans."
> 
> Branch 001 was the first branch of the Royal Canadian Legion to receive a charter. The top portion of the building was completed in 1951 and officially opened by then-Princess Elizabeth.
> 
> Legions began as places of camaraderie for large numbers of veterans from the First and Second World Wars.
> 
> In its heyday, Royal Canadian Legion Branch 001 Regina had as many as 2,500 members.
> 
> But Duncan noted there aren't any living First World War vets, Second World War vets are well into their 80s and 90s and Korean vets are into their 80s as well.
> 
> The branch currently has between 400 and 450 members.
> 
> "They were all the same people and they felt different than the rest of the population and they needed a place to congregate," explained Duncan, who joined the legion 42 years ago to honour his grandfathers, his father and his uncles, who all served.
> 
> "Now, we still have veterans coming back from our different wars and conflicts and peacekeeping, but it's a different society. They're not joining the legions, not all of them ... It's not the same numbers."
> 
> Duncan said there was little choice but to sell as revenue dwindled.
> 
> "We were in a position where we were going to have to consider closing the doors because without donations we weren't able to keep the bills paid. And that's not been recent, that's been history. That goes back quite a few years," he said.
> 
> "We researched all avenues. We tried to get investors to come in and keep the building as is and just renovate."
> 
> The entire building needed work: everything from plumbing to electrical had to be upgraded.
> 
> Duncan said the only group to come forward was a property developer, who plans to build the parking lot.
> 
> The front part of the building, the tower, the stained glass windows and murals depicting Canada's military history -- which are covered by a municipal heritage designation -- will remain and are to be renovated ....


The Canadian Press, 6 Jan 13


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest from MP John Rafferty's campaign for federal infrastructure money for Legions:


> .... As financially autonomous bodies, funding for individual branches is almost always limited to the public support received by their respective communities. Unfortunately the primary source of revenue, membership dues, has been steadily declining over the past 25 years and now only contributes marginally to the maintenance of these institutions.  Some of this is due to the structure of the organization itself as 90% percent of a single membership fee is relinquished to Dominion and Provincial Command – the overseeing bodies, but other problems are also related to the changing nature of our economy, increased operating costs, and declining membership. Raising fees to counter this problem is a possibility, but it could also deter those interested from becoming members and for branches already facing a slump in membership it is simply not an option.
> 
> Today, branches must obtain most of their funding through catering services, fundraising efforts made by the Ladies and Youth Auxiliaries, their bar sales, and by renting out their halls for special occasions. While this allows citizens to become increasingly involved with their Legion and builds a sense of community, individual branches are now forced to compete with restaurants, bars and banquet halls for money. For those struggling with finances much of the money they are able to raise simply keeps them afloat and leaves little room to invest in infrastructure upgrades or renewal.  As these facilities age and structures start to deteriorate fewer people will be inclined to rent these spaces for special occasions which can amplify the financial difficulties at many branches. Many Legions across Canada have fallen victim to these circumstances over the years.
> 
> In tabling Motion-417 I called upon the Federal government to address this issue by creating a Royal Canadian Legion Infrastructure Renewal Fund. If implemented, it is my hope that any investment made by individual branches to preserve or enhance their physical infrastructure – such as heating or ventilation upgrades – would be eligible for matching funds by the Federal government. While the Harper Conservatives have provided some federal funding to non-profit community facilities through a Community Infrastructure Improvement Fund (CIIF), this worthwhile but temporary program is set to expire and legions are forced to compete with other organizations for these funds. Of the $150 million designated in the CIIF a total of $144,643 has been provided to four legion branches that have used the money to upgrade their kitchens, replace their roofs, and install new heating and air conditioning units among other fixes.  It’s a good idea, but I think we need a permanent standalone program for legions moving forward ....


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ....as 90% percent of a single membership fee is relinquished to Dominion and Provincial Command – the overseeing bodies...


Wow. That sounds an awful lot like extortion; but then, I'm not a Legion member so _maybe_ it's money well-spent -- I can't but have doubts though, based on seeing other bureaucracies in action.


----------



## Danjanou

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The latest from MP John Rafferty's campaign for federal infrastructure money for Legions:



Or we could merge some of the half empty branches and sell off the surplus aging buildings which usually sit on prime real estate thereby freeing up millions to keep the branches open and in good repair and at the same time full of people and double the potential gene pool for leadership at election time. 

Yeah brought that up Sunday to several higher ups including the Provincial President..... someone want to grab a set of pliers and help pry me off this cross they nailed me to. :


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Not all Legions are that stupid,...Guelph's sold the massive [and I mean massive] buiding they had when the 4 halls merged years ago and built a very nice, modern facility on the back piece of the land that they had severed off for that purpose............


----------



## Danjanou

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Not all Legions are that stupid,...Guelph's sold the massive [and I mean massive] buiding they had when the 4 halls merged years ago and built a very nice, modern facility on the back piece of the land that they had severed off for that purpose............



yet another reason to move to Guelph. Care to guess which city's Legions are playing arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic? 8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Or we could merge some of the half empty branches and sell off the surplus aging buildings which usually sit on prime real estate thereby freeing up millions to keep the branches open and in good repair and at the same time full of people and double the potential gene pool for leadership at election time.
> 
> Yeah brought that up Sunday to several higher ups including the Provincial President..... someone want to grab a set of pliers and help pry me off this cross they nailed me to. :


If it's any comfort, you'd get even _worse_ treatment suggesting that kind of heresy here in Thunder Bay, bud.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Not all Legions are that stupid,...Guelph's sold the massive [and I mean massive] buiding they had when the 4 halls merged years ago and built a very nice, modern facility on the back piece of the land that they had severed off for that purpose............


Good to hear.


----------



## mad dog 2020

There is an idea floating around.  

There are alot of post Korean veterans,  Cold War, Gulf, Balkans, Afghanistan. And organized under a united front can have the potential for some influence on political decisions. 
There are some concerns that the current Royal Canadian Legion may notbbe properly informed on the concerns of the original mandate or foundation of the inception of the Legion. 

There are plenty of other groups, be it Regimental, Branch, Ships company, Motor cycle enthusiasts and UN postings, so the loyalty is there, just unfortunately fragmented. We need to consolidate or amalgamate. 

So, we are strongly suggested that the aforementioned individuals at least investigate their Local Branch. Our numbers will swell and we could have some pressure on our future. To join would be ideal.

This would give us venues to have a meetings, rallies, fundraisers or that kitchen party you always wanted. And that option coast to coast. 

"Legion is the largest of the many veterans Organizations in Canada with over 330,000 members"


"Legion is rededicated to the care of Canada's veterans and the perpetuation of Remembrance"

"Legion continues pressure on the federal government to improve benefits for those who serve and have served as their needs change"

An important aspect we forget is that in many local emergencies the Legion is the nucleus of response with organized kitchen, dining area and volunteer staff augmenting the Red Cross. Some rural Branches have applied for official status and have auxiliary power provided by EMO. 

So, please consider this vision. What with the increasing emergencies. (floods, storms and accidents). 

 Not to mention the provision of proper direction for our youth via cadets or sports.


----------



## Danjanou

Is it November already? We usually don't have or annual bash the Legion thread until November. 

Seriously I see your posting from Toronto, good luck trying to get the newer generation of vets past the gatekeepers of District D and its 27 Branches. These Aging xenophobic "never serveds" will immediately point out you're not a "real veteran" and therefore cannot stand proudly beside those stalwart former members of the 7th and 8th Canadian Infantry Divisions whom they trot out every November to justify the RCLs hallowed place as keepers of cheap beer, meat spins, and 1970's decor and political attitudes  oops I mean Remembrance.

Mind they will take the occasional newer vet in, just because they need someone to do all the heavy work including someone who may know basic drill and doesn't require a walker.  However don't expect more than a scattering of these and don't expect them to actually listen to you.  You're there to act as a scape goat when it all goes south due to them preferring to not listen to any advice ( re parades, bookkeeping, social media et cetera et cetera) instead falling back on the "we've been doing it this way for all  my ( insert number of decades here) in the Legion."

Seriously good luck, and I mean that. Me I'm just dealing with the latest piece of infantile bitching form the Blues and Grays set dumped in my lap this morning and wondering why I don't  ceremonially burn my Legion Card and medals for the thousandth time.  Oh that's right I forgot I have to stick around at least until the middle of August. I'm chief cat herder at the Warriors Day Parade this year and that's usually worth a youtube moment.


----------



## Sythen

As much hate as the RCL receive (and I am not saying whether or not its justified), when I was having issues with VAC, one phone call to the RCL basically fixed everything in an astonishingly short time frame. I am not a member of the RCL (though I keep meaning to change that), and they haven't seen a penny from me but they bent over backwards to help me when I needed it. I've seen a lot of discussion on the RCL here, and one recurring theme is why not join and fix it from the inside? If all the "alot of post Korean veterans,  Cold War, Gulf, Balkans, Afghanistan" started joining the Legions, how long until they get sorted out? Seems like starting a different organization just seems to be over complicating the matter.


----------



## Nemo888

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Is it November already? We usually don't have or annual bash the Legion thread until November.
> 
> Seriously I see your posting from Toronto, good luck trying to get the newer generation of vets past the gatekeepers of District D and its 27 Branches. These Aging xenophobic "never serveds" will immediately point out you're not a "real veteran" and therefore cannot stand proudly beside those stalwart former members of the 7th and 8th Canadian Infantry Divisions whom they trot out every November to justify the RCLs hallowed place as keepers of cheap beer, meat spins, and 1970's decor and political attitudes  oops I mean Remembrance.
> 
> Mind they will take the occasional newer vet in, just because they need someone to do all the heavy work including someone who may know basic drill and doesn't require a walker.  However don't expect more than a scattering of these and don't expect them to actually listen to you.  You're there to act as a scape goat when it all goes south due to them preferring to not listen to any advice ( re parades, bookkeeping, social media et cetera et cetera) instead falling back on the "we've been doing it this way for all  my ( insert number of decades here) in the Legion."
> 
> Seriously good luck, and I mean that. Me I'm just dealing with the latest piece of infantile bitching form the Blues and Grays set dumped in my lap this morning and wondering why I don't  ceremonially burn my Legion Card and medals for the thousandth time.  Oh that's right I forgot I have to stick around at least until the middle of August. I'm chief cat herder at the Warriors Day Parade this year and that's usually worth a youtube moment.



Looks like the"changing the system from the inside," is not going so well. Full respect for making the effort. At least you pokes about them made  me laugh because they cut so close to the bone.


----------



## Danjanou

Sythen said:
			
		

> As much hate as the RCL receive (and I am not saying whether or not its justified), when I was having issues with VAC, one phone call to the RCL basically fixed everything in an astonishingly short time frame. I am not a member of the RCL (though I keep meaning to change that), and they haven't seen a penny from me but they bent over backwards to help me when I needed it. I've seen a lot of discussion on the RCL here, and one recurring theme is why not join and fix it from the inside? If all the "alot of post Korean veterans,  Cold War, Gulf, Balkans, Afghanistan" started joining the Legions, how long until they get sorted out? Seems like starting a different organization just seems to be over complicating the matter.



And that (the highlighted bit) would be the only reason I have yet to walk away in disgust. There is a lot of potential to help veterans in the RCL, its original mandate. A national organization with hundreds of thousands of members could be a bit a political factor in advocating for veterans rights should the present leadership be willing to put on their big boy pants and wade into the morass. The infrastructure is their ready and waiting to embrace newer generations on vets and adapt to their needs and wants.  There is also the money available for various projects, poppy fund etc.

However time is running out. The Legion is akin to the Titanic about 5 minutes after it hit the iceberg and the present leadership are still busy rearranging the deck chairs.  If the O/P really wants to join up in the GTA and/or has others willing to come get in touch with me via PM and I'll point you in the direction of which branches are probably more agreeable to change and/or ripe for a coup.  >


hey Nemo glad I made your day, bro. Come to Warriors Day it's a walt fest.  8)


----------



## mad dog 2020

This is not about a new organization but a remodeling in a more modern decor yet traditional. 
A infiltration or coup d'état, I have personally seen the old guard and how much they resemble a welcome wagon (NOT)!
Trying to be positive it is possible sadly enough through attrition. 
I already quit one branch locally due to their attitude.  And was ready to cash it in.
Some flat faced civie waltzing around with a drill cane and Sgt at Arms armband (someone's son in law no doubt) looking down on my table of retired CF members.
If you go to FaceBook and look up the group Canadian Veterans Advocacy, there is some hard working people out there and united we stand. 
We can go in like 5th coloumists, in the dark of night, no maybe a general meeting and remember majority rules.
So keep those cards and letters coming or going in. 
To me Remerance day is year round!
I have been to some Legions like Whitehorse, Kingston, TRENTON, Spryfield, Niagara Falls (New), and Richards Landing where they make you feel welcome.  I met some of the executive of the Brampton Branch at the Honda Indy and they were so friendly and wanted us to stop in if we were ever in the area.
Like a lottery you have to play to win. No tickle no laundry. 
And oh how I remember the sad and unwelcoming atmosphere of Hamilton Center Mall.


----------



## Danjanou

I thought this was a result of all those threads on the CVA FB site over the weekend. I know I tossed some naptha of that particular fire with one of my posts.  8)


----------



## Rifleman62

Danjanou, it is 





> A national organization with hundreds of thousands of members could be a bit a political factor in advocating for veterans rightsLegion Seeking Enhancements for All Veterans from New Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada



The RCL says it is.

July 17, 2013 09:57 ET

VVi 20 Jul 2013 db

OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(Marketwired - July 17, 2013) - Royal Canadian Legion Dominion President, Gordon Moore, is anticipating an early meeting now that the Honourable Julian Fantino has been appointed as the Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada.

"On behalf of the more than 320,000 members of The Royal Canadian Legion, I am looking forward to making significant improvements in Veterans services and programs with the Honourable Julian Fantino as the new Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada," says Moore. "We, on behalf of all Veterans including serving Canadian Armed Forces RCMP members, and their families, encourage the new Minister to implement the review of the New Veterans Charter this fall; specifically, a thorough review of the financial compensation package for those who been injured attributable to their service to ensure its fairness and equity, " he adds.

"We are looking for further improvements to the financial compensation of our injured Veterans which ensures a lifelong quality of life for all injured veterans," he concludes.

Also of particular concern to the Legion are ongoing issues within the Funeral and Burial Benefit Services program including the means test and improvements to the program's accessibility.

The Dominion President will be inviting the new Minister to Legion headquarters for a briefing on the Legion highlighting its service to the Canadian Armed Forces and RCMP members, Veterans, families, youth, Canadian communities, and the Legion's ongoing commitment to promote Remembrance.

Contact Information
Bruce Poulin
Dominion Command
The Royal Canadian Legion
1-613-591-3335 ext. 241
Cell: 1-613-292-8760
bruce.poulin@legion.ca

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/legion-seeking-enhancements-all-veterans-from-new-minister-veterans-affairs-canada-1812024.htm


----------



## Danjanou

I've adopted a watch and shoot stance re these pronouncements, call me cynical.  

Besides imagine how more effective that statement would be if instead of 320,000 ( two thirds of whom have never worn a uniform, often don't attend meetings, never read stuff like that and only fire up the outrage bus when they don't win the meat spin) it included the 500,000 +/- Veterans in this country in this county that are not Legion members . 

You go to the Government  of the day and say I have almost a million pissed off organized members from coast to coast and all are registered and will vote and then they actually listen. 

BTW for those members of the RCL who have now arrived and are lurking on the site reading this thread. It's easy to figure out whom I am combine the clues I've left and click on my screen name, my real name is in my profile.  8)


----------



## manhole

any organization has both good and not-so-good members.   It's not the organization as a whole, but the individual branches and members who are lacking.   I suggest you try your local ANAVETS Unit (Army, Navy & Air Force Veterans in Canada).   I am the Service Officer for Woodstock Unit #95 and we are the only Unit in NB (at the moment).   For the record, I also belong to Branch #24 Hartland, NB of the RCL.   We rent our meeting site so don't have to worry about a building and associated costs.   Our fund-raising goes to veterans causes, bursaries, and other community projects.   We have short meetings, followed by a social time.   Our members consist of WWII and Korea Veterans, Peace-keepers, Reservists, ex-Canadian Forces members, CIC officers, former cadets, police officers, firefighters, other first responders, and former RCMP members.   We all get along  because we are here to serve the veteran community as a whole and are serving or have served our country with pride.   We support our Canadian Forces and strive to be effective advocates for them as well as any veteran.    We spend a lot of time at area schools  for Flag Day and Veterans Week.  We also are the sponsor for our local Army Cadet Corps. We welcome anyone who is willing to work hard in achieving our goals.   Anyone interested in finding out more about us, send me a PM.


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## mad dog 2020

This is my point! 
There are so many organizations under different names, ANAVETs, The Corp, Unit/Regt Assns in Hometowns, UNVets, RCHA club in Kingston etc etc etc.....
We are stretched thinner than the line in the Battle of the Bulge!  There are clubs coast to coast closing weekly. 
We have a common cause and mindset.  
The last thing we need is to poach members.  I can see some huge establishments maybe downsizing or like empty nesters re-evaluate.  
Maybe the RCL could open their doors to other organizations to share or lease space.  
RCLs need to be centrally located so maybe it can be used as a seniors drop in centre by day.
There was a quote I read yesterday on this topic and it was that our collective voices are not being heard as we are not connected.
We need to identify, and liaise with all organizations in our communities to work towards a common goal, which isn't a problem as this is already apparent. Just that there are so many opinions on how or what is being implemented.
Concensus through dialog 
We need to focus on our goals and in some cases leave the egos at the door.   It is not so much about local issues.


----------



## ModlrMike

One needs to remember that the RCL is an amalgamation of several retired service clubs. Perhaps the proliferation of new clubs is no more than an indication of the current RCL's irrelevance to younger vets. Darwinism in action - evolve or die.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mad dog 2020 said:
			
		

> It is not so much about local issues.



Actually, at the grass roots level of membership and organizational survival, it's all about local issues.

 - It is the individual Branches that choose to go down in flames and collapse rather than amalgamate to form fewer, stronger, centralized Branches with a focus on the organization's purpose rather than defencing antiquated brick and mortar just because it was "Dad's legion."
 - It is the individual Branches that chose to be unwelcoming to a generation of post war retirees and Cold War soldiers because theirs wasn't a "real war."
 - It is the local branches that fight to keep outdated practices that do not appeal to younger veterans, while declaring that the "organization is a worthy one."

If you want to claim that the organization is worthy and moving in the right direction, then it's the shop front that needs to be fixed. It's NOT the responsibility of the prospective member to "join and make changes from within." The Legion - al all levels - has to recognize where it is broken and start to fix itself.


----------



## dapaterson

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Actually, at the grass roots level of membership and organizational survival, it's all about local issues.
> 
> - It is the individual Branches that choose to go down in flames and collapse rather than amalgamate to form fewer, stronger, centralized Branches with a focus on the organization's purpose rather than defencing antiquated brick and mortar just because it was "Dad's legion."
> - It is the individual Branches that chose to be unwelcoming to a generation of post war retirees and Cold War soldiers because theirs wasn't a "real war."
> - It is the local branches that fight to keep outdated practices that do not appeal to younger veterans, while declaring that the "organization is a worthy one."
> 
> If you want to claim that the organization is worthy and moving in the right direction, then it's the shop front that needs to be fixed. It's NOT the responsibility of the prospective member to "join and make changes from within." The Legion - al all levels - has to recognize where it is broken and start to fix itself.



Any similarity to our collection of understrength Reserve companies masquerading as battalions is purely coincidental...


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Any similarity to our collection of understrength Reserve companies masquerading as battalions is purely coincidental...


Just as our understrength RegF battalions and HQ's masquerading as divisions is also coincidental...


----------



## dapaterson

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Just as our understrength RegF battalions and HQ's masquerading as divisions is also coincidental...



A Reg F Bn (Infantry) wil have 450-600 soldiers, trained.

A Res F Bn (Infantry) will have 100-150 soldiers, with at best 80% trained.

I can justify a LCol and CWO for the first.  Not for the second.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> A Reg F Bn (Infantry) wil have 450-600 soldiers, trained.
> 
> A Res F Bn (Infantry) will have 100-150 soldiers, with at best 80% trained.
> 
> I can justify a LCol and CWO for the first.  Not for the second.


Fine, but my example was the division level WRT the RegF.  It's all smoke and mirrors no matter how you're cutting the cake.

And back on topic the RCL is an organization that I take with a grain of salt and all depends on the individual local, some are good others are not.  I have walked into some locals that look down upon serving members and want nothing to do with them or the advice they bring because the RCL members feel they will be overshadowed, whereas other locals openly welcome and encourage former and currently serving CAF members because they realize that the RCL exists to support those individuals.

*edit to remove the comment that could have been interpreted to be "snarky"


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Fine, but my example was the division level WRT the RegF.  It's all smoke and mirrors no matter how you're cutting the cake.
> 
> And back on topic the RCL is an organization that I take with a grain of salt and all depends on the individual local, some are good others are not.  I have walked into some locals that look down upon serving members and want nothing to do with them or the advice they bring because the RCL members feel they will be overshadowed, whereas other locals openly welcome and encourage former and currently serving CAF members because they realize that the RCL exists to support those individuals.
> 
> *edit to remove the comment that could have been interpreted to be "snarky"



The div's are bad examples because they mostly exist to support the reserve force and are quite reservist centric.  For instance, 4th Cdn Division in Toronto is definitely a reservist dominated organization.  You have 2 CMBG in Petawawa hours away from the Div Comd while all of the Res Bde Gps are right there, who do you think has the ability to influence things in that organization?


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> The div's are bad examples because they mostly exist to support the reserve force and are quite reservist centric.  For instance, 4th Cdn Division in Toronto is definitely a reservist dominated organization.  You have 2 CMBG in Petawawa hours away from the Div Comd while all of the Res Bde Gps are right there, who do you think has the ability to influence things in that organization?


Judging by what has happened in recent history to the PRes units WRT funding cut-backs, reallocation of funding and diminished capability for intake of new soldiers the Bdes are being ignored at all levels.  The butter is thin on everyone's toast.  Physical co-location does not equal more of a voice.


----------



## mad dog 2020

RCL take notice!   The decision to commit was made and our sons and daughters responded. If you don't want the consequences of decisions , don't make any! 

OTTAWA -- At least one veterans group promises to campaign against the Harper Conservatives because of a stand taken by federal lawyers, who argue the country holds no extraordinary social obligation to ex-soldiers.
The lawyers, fighting a class-action lawsuit in British Columbia, asked a judge to dismiss the court action filed by injured Afghan veterans, saying Ottawa owes them nothing more than what they have already received under its controversial New Veterans Charter.
The lawsuit filed last fall by six veterans claims that the new charter, which replaces life-time pensions with workers compensation-style lump sum awards for wounds, violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Mike Blais, president of Canadian Veterans Advocacy, told a Parliament Hill news conference that since the First World War, the federal government has recognized it has a "sacred obligation" to veterans and that notion was abandoned with the adoption of the veterans charter by the Conservatives.
He says his members demand the government "stand down on this ridiculous position," and if it doesn't veterans will work to see that the Conservatives are replaced.
New Democrat veterans critic Peter Stoffer says the legal implication of claiming the government has no special obligation to veterans is extremely far-reaching and he demanded the Conservatives clarify what it means.


----------



## Danjanou

All good points.

The reserve analogy is correct, someone who's now in charge (and same is in some Mo units) whether they should be so base on their skill sets, enthusiasm notwithstanding, is probably not going to give up their position for the good of the collective. 

Come watch the Warriors Day Parade with Branches with less than 10 persons in parade march (or shamble I can be snarky) through the Prince's Gates. Any attempt to get the small contingent to amalgamate for one lousy parade is met with such a blast of righteous indignation  that forget about getting them to do it for real and save that Branch by joining with the one 10 minutes away. Nope both would rather go under and I fear probably will. 

There are 27 Branches in Toronto now and I would guess we could/should have 18-21 that are survivable.  Care to guess which ones are the most resistant to new blood coming in?

I t does come down to the individual branch level, both for the community involvement at the basest level and because it is there change is supposed to start and move upward. 

Ironically I've noted that rural branches seem to be stronger than urban ones, mind then a disproportionate number of our military seem to come from small towns ( and more than a few from Atlantic Canada) . Many will then choose to return/retire there and this gives the local Legion ANAVETS, whatever a new pool of recruits. 

Add to this in really smaller communities there is a good connect between the local branch and the town. It is often one of the few places that can be rented/used for community events, weddings etc. It therefore becomes a focal point for the community and essential to it. This does not exist I feel in urban areas to the same extent at least not from I've observed.

Re the veritable alphabet of other organizations, NATO Vets CPKVA, CANVUP, CVA, VETS, VOC etc etc. all nice and good , but the squabbling plays into the hands of the VAC if in fact their efforts to screw the Vets over are deliberate or not. One unified voice, one umbrella organization is needed.

These groups like the earlier Hong Kong and Korean Vets groups were created as a response by those specific groups who felt the main stream Veterans organization ( the RCL) wasn't meeting their specific needs.

Ironically while they all espouse the "one Veteran" standard their very organization parameters suggest otherwise. Many are rather cliquish on whom they let in, didn't serve on this mission, wear this colour beret, get his medal, sorry can't join. The only Veterans Organization that actually takes all Veterans in is the one many of them bemoan. the Legion.

There is room and a need for these groups and they shouldn't be competitive. Fiddlehead is a member of ANAVETS and The RCL; I have both a NATO Veterans of Canada and a Regimental Association membership card in my wallet besides my RCL one. It's not a religion, I wasn't forced to choose between one or the other.


----------



## garb811

mad dog 2020 said:
			
		

> RCL take notice!   The decision to commit was made and our sons and daughters responded. If you don't want the consequences of decisions , don't make any!
> 
> OTTAWA -- At least one veterans group promises to campaign against the Harper Conservatives because of a stand taken by federal lawyers, who argue the country holds no extraordinary social obligation to ex-soldiers.
> The lawyers, fighting a class-action lawsuit in British Columbia, asked a judge to dismiss the court action filed by injured Afghan veterans, saying Ottawa owes them nothing more than what they have already received under its controversial New Veterans Charter.
> The lawsuit filed last fall by six veterans claims that the new charter, which replaces life-time pensions with workers compensation-style lump sum awards for wounds, violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> Mike Blais, president of Canadian Veterans Advocacy, told a Parliament Hill news conference that since the First World War, the federal government has recognized it has a "sacred obligation" to veterans and that notion was abandoned with the adoption of the veterans charter by the Conservatives.
> He says his members demand the government "stand down on this ridiculous position," and if it doesn't veterans will work to see that the Conservatives are replaced.
> New Democrat veterans critic Peter Stoffer says the legal implication of claiming the government has no special obligation to veterans is extremely far-reaching and he demanded the Conservatives clarify what it means.


That's all well and good but...what are they going to work to replace them with?  None of the alternatives are attractive on their best days.


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## mariomike

Another piece of my neighbourhood is fading into history. 

Nov 25, 2013     

"After 85 years, the Swansea legion closes its doors for good

Legion sold due to rising costs, low membership"
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/4231988-after-85-years-the-swansea-legion-closes-its-doors-for-good/

Photo of the exterior:
http://www.swansea.ca/gallery_Community_157.htm

Right across the street from the Town Hall and firehouse ( both still in operation ) which were both built around the same time. There used to be a police and ambulance station there too. A lot of guys from the job used to go there after shift. 

A large part of our area had prohibition until 2000 when it finally voted itself "wet". Prior that, Branch 46 ( which was licenced to sell alcohol ) was a busy place.


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## Danjanou

I take no pleasure in thie announcement Mariomike, saw it coming months ago and it won't be the last sadly. I did receive earlier tonight the list of what's up for sale in Jan, some nice bargains to be had


----------



## mariomike

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I take no pleasure in thie announcement Mariomike, saw it coming months ago and it won't be the last sadly. I did receive earlier tonight the list of what's up for sale in Jan, some nice bargains to be had



I have a lot of nice memories of the members there, Danjanou. So many of whom have passed away.


----------



## pbi

Well, believe it or not after all the negative things I've said about the Legion on these pages, I've re-joined my local branch here in Kingston. I didn't see this coming, at all.

What convinced me to join again (after many years away) was the drive and enthusiasm of the President, who had the Branch redesignated as the "Capt Matthew Dawe 632" branch, in honour of that fine Patricia officer. At the dedication ceremony, he spoke of the urgent need to make the Legion relevant to today's vets, and to be able to continue helping the vets who need help.

After listening to him, I thought "why not?": I went up to him after, thanked him, and told him that he had convinced me to rejoin. So I did.

Now, we'll see what happens. If I find out, once again, that it's just a collection of bitter old "everything haters" muttering into their beer and dissing today's CAF, I'll be gone. But, if I can find a way that we can do some good, I will stick with it.

My point is that what the Legion needs, and what will save it (if it can be saved...) is leadership.


----------



## Jed

pbi said:
			
		

> Well, believe it or not after all the negative things I've said about the Legion on these pages, I've re-joined my local branch here in Kingston. I didn't see this coming, at all.
> 
> What convinced me to join again (after many years away) was the drive and enthusiasm of the President, who had the Branch redesignated as the "Capt Matthew Dawe 632" branch, in honour of that fine Patricia officer. At the dedication ceremony, he spoke of the urgent need to make the Legion relevant to today's vets, and to be able to continue helping the vets who need help.
> 
> After listening to him, I thought "why not?": I went up to him after, thanked him, and told him that he had convinced me to rejoin. So I did.
> 
> Now, we'll see what happens. If I find out, once again, that it's just a collection of bitter old "everything haters" muttering into their beer and dissing today's CAF, I'll be gone. But, if I can find a way that we can do some good, I will stick with it.
> 
> My point is that what the Legion needs, and what will save it (if it can be saved...) is leadership.




Well that is great news. Nice to some new (rejuvenated?) people coming on board. Good to see a legion renamed in Matthew Dawe's honour.


----------



## pbi

Jed said:
			
		

> Well that is great news. Nice to some new (rejuvenated?) people coming on board. Good to see a legion renamed in Matthew Dawe's honour.



"Rejuvenated" is a relative term, in my case.


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## dapaterson

From what I've noticed in some reports, many Legion branches do not track or plan for their infra costs.  Thus they seem to be continually surprised by costs to renew their buildings - new roof, new furnace, etc etc

I know in Ontario all Condo corporations are required to conduct Reserve Fund studies every few years to ensure they are planning ahead for future costs.  It might be worthwhile for the Legion to require similar studies of their branches, to ensure their long-term viability.


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## Danjanou

While I probably will regret this ( I really don't remember becoming a masochist) but after some thought over the holidays ( hey nothjing else to do while sitting in a house with no power) I'm actually heading down to renew my Legion Membership and shell out my 2014 dues. If nothing else it gives me the right to continue to bitch about the old guard that is running the place into the iceberg at full speed.


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> ..... I'm actually heading down to renew my Legion Membership ......


Frontiersmen too?   


         :nana:


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Frontiersmen too?
> 
> 
> :nana:



I may be stupid but not that stupid, besides nearest unit in Kingston 8)


----------



## medicineman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> ... besides nearest unit in Kingston 8)



So you are saying that you have actually looked into joining  >


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## Danjanou

medicineman said:
			
		

> So you are saying that you have actually looked into joining  >



JM asked me last time I was there. I guess he's lonely >


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## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> JM asked me last time I was there.


Ahhh....bald-faced lies, with nothing to show for it; yep, you'll fit in quite well with the Legion.  

You enjoy your cut-throat euchre tournaments and kick-ass turkey bingos.   :nod:


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## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Ahhh....bald-faced lies, with nothing to show for it;



Oh so you were at my branch meeting tonight  8)


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## brihard

Well, I unexpectedly took the plunge and joined my local branch today.

I have been and remain sceptical as hell of the Legion as a whole. I *have* noticed a distinct shift in what Dominion Command has been saying regarding the treatment of modern veterans, and for me that matters, obviously. But specifically the *branch* I'm joining is good to go. The president was PPCLI in Op Anaconda; the previous president, is a retired CFRed tanker who actually taught my dad back in the day (small world). The current president is very involved with OSISS and is also continuing to deal with his own stuff that led to his medical release. They're good supporters of the cadet corps I work with, and this particular branch seems to really care about boots on the ground work for vets. There are a couple of other Afghan vets as well, which for a place this size isn't bad at all.

So, I'll be curious to see how this goes, and what kind of insight I'm able to get into the thinking at higher levels. Talking with the guys at this branch, they're certainly not holding slavishly to what higher Legion command's official position is on some issues. I think I've found one of the 'good' branches.


----------



## pbi

Brihard said:
			
		

> Well, I unexpectedly took the plunge and joined my local branch today.
> 
> I have been and remain sceptical as hell of the Legion as a whole. I *have* noticed a distinct shift in what Dominion Command has been saying regarding the treatment of modern veterans, and for me that matters, obviously. But specifically the *branch* I'm joining is good to go. The president was PPCLI in Op Anaconda; the previous president, is a retired CFRed tanker who actually taught my dad back in the day (small world). The current president is very involved with OSISS and is also continuing to deal with his own stuff that led to his medical release. They're good supporters of the cadet corps I work with, and this particular branch seems to really care about boots on the ground work for vets. There are a couple of other Afghan vets as well, which for a place this size isn't bad at all.
> 
> So, I'll be curious to see how this goes, and what kind of insight I'm able to get into the thinking at higher levels. Talking with the guys at this branch, they're certainly not holding slavishly to what higher Legion command's official position is on some issues. I think I've found one of the 'good' branches.



My sentiments exactly about the branch I joined last year, after a decades long absence from the Legion. I attended the re-dedication of the branch to honour Capt Matt Dawe, liked what I saw in the leadership, and rejoined. Like you, I'm still in "test drive" mode, but my feelings so far are positive.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> We share your frustration sir, but changing political parties or hating one will not change VAC. Despite what Mr. Mulcair and Mr. Trudeau say during any campaign, you can be almost certain that VAC issues will not go away. Also, despite all parties having veterans in them as MPs will not change VAC.
> The parties in opposition have not seen the balance sheet. They may think they have but we all know how finances can be.......skewed.



I totally agree.  I'm not going to support another party because I think they would be even worse, but that doesn't change my opinion that the conservatives only "care" when it comes to votes and image. 

Also while it would be even worse for us I can't help but feel that the conservatives deserve to loose.


----------



## JS2218

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I was, at one time, a member of the RCL.  I don't see myself returning to the fold anytime soon if ever.  From where I sit, the RCL have appeared to be mostly silent in the ongoing drama between wounded veterans and the DVA.  If they want to become relevant and take the lead then they need to step up, pipe up and do so.  They were trumpeting the NVC on it's inception and have been more or less silent since.  Like him or not, Mike Blais, and others like him are the only voices I hear in the wilderness and not the RCL.



Yep, completely silent...  :


----------



## jollyjacktar

JS2218 said:
			
		

> Yep, completely silent...  :



And I said "from where I sit, the RCL have appeared to be mostly silent"  Yup, I said "mostly".   : : :


----------



## Jed

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And I said "from where I sit, the RCL have appeared to be mostly silent"  Yup, I said "mostly".   : : :



Well get in there and get noisy. Too many new veterans are not honest enough with themselves and are just being lazy or weak. 

At least Mike Blais et al are making an effort to change things even if they are going about it bass ackwards.


----------



## PuckChaser

JS2218 said:
			
		

> Yep, completely silent...  :



Internet press releases do not equal advocacy. If the RCL wants to attract young veterans, they need to be the first person to jump at the chance to speak to the media on our behalf instead of Blais. If they really wanted to advocate, they could get their spokespersons on TV with good soundbites to show they're doing something. As of right now, I have no real inkling to join the RCL, because the changes that need to happen are at the very top. Unless you're towing the Legion-line I don't see any prospect of advancing in that old boys club.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jed said:
			
		

> Well get in there and get noisy. Too many new veterans are not honest enough with themselves and are just being lazy or weak.
> 
> At least Mike Blais et al are making an effort to change things even if they are going about it bass ackwards.


I'm not slamming Mike Blais at all, I agree he is at least making noise.


----------



## jollyjacktar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Internet press releases do not equal advocacy. If the RCL wants to attract young veterans, they need to be the first person to jump at the chance to speak to the media on our behalf instead of Blais. If they really wanted to advocate, they could get their spokespersons on TV with good soundbites to show they're doing something. As of right now, I have no real inkling to join the RCL, because the changes that need to happen are at the very top. Unless you're towing the Legion-line I don't see any prospect of advancing in that old boys club.


Well said.


----------



## captloadie

In all politics, the lobbyists that get the most accomplished do it behid the scenes and away from the public eye. You may be hard pressed to come up with a handful of meaningful changes implemented by government (this or previous ones) that were the result of a loud, confrontational media campaign. Sure, Mike Blais may be drawing attention to the issue, but it is unlikely his organization is the one that will be rolling up their sleeves and getting the job done. I'm not saying the RCL is working quietly and successfully behind the scenes, but you can't necessarily say their silence is proof they are sitting on their hands and doing nothing.


----------



## jollyjacktar

You may be correct in that they are attempting back room deals out of the public spectrum.  There is, however, the old saw that "not only must justice be done; it must be seen to be done”.  And I have not seen what is being or not being done by the RCL, so  :dunno:.


----------



## upandatom

The VAC will be used as a political tool, for a party with a political agenda. Its not going to change, I am beinga  realist here. The current one cleared with full support of the Parliament. 

Even with the law suit, the PM putting a new figurehead into place, and the spoiled little boy trudeau telling the lawyers and press that he would settle the lawsuit instead of spending more on it. 

I dont see it changing. The magicians on the hill pulled the table cloth out and said oops when the dishes went flying. 
It just disgusts me at the pension they recieve for a minimal time in office, a pension that someone can easily live off of, and add on that they gain contacts and become lobbyists for corporations.


----------



## Occam

What it comes down to is this:  The current government fears nothing except for bad press, which they take great pains to mitigate.  The Legion may well be quietly and diplomatically advocating on behalf of veterans, but the pace at which anything is actually being done can only be described as glacial.  The Legion holds the _potential_ of having a lot of power, but the only way that power will be realized with the current government, is for the power to be wielded in the form of shaming the government into action.  That will not happen with the current management at the Legion, and that is why the Legion is an ineffective advocate for veterans at this time.


----------



## OldSolduer

Occam said:
			
		

> What it comes down to is this:  The current government fears nothing except for bad press, which they take great pains to mitigate.  The Legion may well be quietly and diplomatically advocating on behalf of veterans, but the pace at which anything is actually being done can only be described as glacial.  The Legion holds the _potential_ of having a lot of power, but the only way that power will be realized with the current government, is for the power to be wielded in the form of shaming the government into action.  That will not happen with the current management at the Legion, and that is why the Legion is an ineffective advocate for veterans at this time.



The thing is you cannot change an organization for the outside....for instance the CAF is resistant to other organizations telling it how to do business. Same for VAC and the Legion.

Real substantial change must happen from within.


----------



## Jed

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The thing is you cannot change an organization for the outside....for instance the CAF is resistant to other organizations telling it how to do business. Same for VAC and the Legion.
> 
> Real substantial change must happen from within.



A key point. Within 4 to 6 years the Legion old guard will be moving on in one way or another. The ranks will be filled by those comrades sitting through the meetings. If the new vets want to change things now is the time to get active. If you have the patience, the RCL will have a very strong voice in a few years. 

If too many vets want to just whine away and be generally non effective, nothing will change.


----------



## Strike

Occam said:
			
		

> What it comes down to is this:  The current government fears nothing except for bad press, which they take great pains to mitigate.  The Legion may well be quietly and diplomatically advocating on behalf of veterans, but the pace at which anything is actually being done can only be described as glacial.  The Legion holds the _potential_ of having a lot of power, but the only way that power will be realized with the current government, is for the power to be wielded in the form of shaming the government into action.  That will not happen with the current management at the Legion, and that is why the Legion is an ineffective advocate for veterans at this time.



It doesn't matter what government is in power, change will always happen at a glacial pace, and to think otherwise is naive and shows a strong misunderstanding of the way a government works.  Heck, the Cons bought a Sea King replacement, the Libs killed it, the Cons are back in power and still no new helo, just as one example.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jed said:
			
		

> A key point. Within 4 to 6 years the Legion old guard will be moving on in one way or another. The ranks will be filled by those comrades sitting through the meetings. If the new vets want to change things now is the time to get active. If you have the patience, the RCL will have a very strong voice in a few years.
> 
> If too many vets want to just whine away and be generally non effective, nothing will change.



The old guard has already moved on. The RCL is now populated, mostly, by a bunch of civies that think a Legion beret and executive medals, worn on the right side, somehow gives them a connection to a service they never did. The majority could care less about Veterans. All they really want to know about is how much pork tenderloin is going to be in the Friday meat draw and if anyone hit the big score on the Neveda tickets before they buy theirs.

The only way to affect change is to have a concerted effort. You need to pull together enough Veterans per Branch, to join and outvote the existing civilian committees. Once you've taken over the running of the place, you have to cement your position. Once the previous people no longer have a say and you make the RCL military centric again, they will leave of their own accord and we can start to accomplish something.


----------



## Jed

recceguy said:
			
		

> The old guard has already moved on. The RCL is now populated, mostly, by a bunch of civies that think a Legion beret and executive medals, worn on the right side, somehow gives them a connection to a service they never did. The majority could care less about Veterans. All they really want to know about is how much pork tenderloin is going to be in the Friday meat draw and if anyone hit the big score on the Neveda tickets before they buy theirs.
> 
> The only way to affect change is to have a concerted effort. You need to pull together enough Veterans per Branch, to join and outvote the existing civilian committees. Once you've taken over the running of the place, you have to cement your position. Once the previous people no longer have a say and you make the RCL military centric again, they will leave of their own accord and we can start to accomplish something.



That's right, concerted effort. I would rather the civi's in power have an attitude adjustment than leave though. The majority will follow good leadership when given the option.


----------



## dapaterson

recceguy said:
			
		

> All they really want to know about is how much pork tenderloin is going to be in the Friday meat draw and if anyone hit the big score on the Neveda tickets before they buy theirs.



That's unfair.




They also want to know when it's going to be their turn at darts.


----------



## blackberet17

The RCL is a weak entity. As RG has indicated, it is populated by civilians, with a smattering of old guard veterans - the modern day veteran, as VAC would say. The numbers are dwindling, branches are closing, and the more modern military service members, those of the Rwanda, Somalia, Bosnia and Afghanistan time period, are not interested in joining the Legion, for a variety of reasons.

The Government of Canada, under the Conservatives, can clearly see this.

The other advocacy groups are also weak entities. They have few members overall, and do not represent a large cross-section of the current CAF and former CAF population. While "vocal" and "loud", the Government of Canada knows they do not have strong support from the general population. Their methods of making themselves heard come across, generally, as a bunch of whiney vets, with the Honourable Peter Stoffer as their figurehead in the House of Commons.

This is very nearly a carbon copy of the situation shortly after the First World War, back in the mid to late 1920s - numerous different, disparate, and disjointed veterans groups wanting essentially the same thing from their Government - better services and benefits, and respect for their service - but seemingly unable to work together towards this common goal.

From this mess came the RCL.

Will the RCL disappear in a similar fashion? I sincerely hope not. The Legion has built itself into a respected organization in the eyes of the general Canadian population. Last year - yes, most likely in response to the attacks on CAF members in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Ottawa, however - the Legion saw unprecedented support for its poppy campaign.

So what's the solution? Well, I'd say cut the whining and whinging, and those who want to effect positive change, come together and work together. In my opinion, the Canadian Veterans Advocacy is not the solution. When you read the comments in this forum about CVA and its various representatives, you can tell there is little support or respect for the CVA, at least amongst the posters here. I could be wrong, but it is a general feeling.

Is the RCL the solution? Beats me. But it at least has the support of the general Canadian population, still has positive links with the Federal Government (unlike other groups on the outskirts, trying to get a voice and be heard), and has some strength behind it.

So, as recceguy suggests, let's get involved, phase out the civilians who while they mean well (we hope), don't represent the CAF population, and can't realistically be taken seriously when they don't have those experiences, and speak with one voice again.

Just my  :2c:


----------



## Occam

Strike said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter what government is in power, change will always happen at a glacial pace, and to think otherwise is naive and shows a strong misunderstanding of the way a government works.  Heck, the Cons bought a Sea King replacement, the Libs killed it, the Cons are back in power and still no new helo, just as one example.



It may be an example, but it's not a very good one.  The cancellation aside, the CF contributed to some of the delays in the same way that they did for the JSS/Big Honkin Ship projects.  By the time everyone got their essential criteria onto the wish list, they had a 30,000 lb helicopter that needs 6 engines to fly, or a 120,000 ton combination Ro-Ro, battleship, aircraft carrier, replenishment ship and sub hunter.  Of course they had to wipe the slate clean and start over.

This government has shown that they have the ability to make quick legislative changes.  The recent new legislation about terrorism is but one example.  And I would argue that change can and does happen at a quick pace when it suits the government.  I like to joke around the office that we need a state board to keep up to the minute on whether the taps are on or off for spare parts procurement.  I'm given direction quite frequently to stop working on projects of such and such a nature, and to devote my time to projects of another nature.  The changes that need to be made at VAC <the department> shouldn't be that hard to implement.  The problem is that there's no political will behind making them, or initiating large deviations from existing policy.  That's a political problem, not an institutional one.

It bears reminding that a mass infusion of 100,000 veterans into the RCL would still not result in veterans having a majority amongst the legion membership.  I acknowledge that at the branch level, it might not take more than a few veterans to tilt the scale at some branches, but at other branches you'd be faced with having to overcome not only the opinions of a majority of civilians, but also the opinions of older veterans who think everything is just fine, because they have no clue of the inadequacies of the NVC.  My personal opinion is that we veterans irretrievably lost the RCL some time ago, and while the body is still alive, it's on life support.  Mathematically, the RCL could be taken back - but realistically, I don't think we'll ever muster the numbers to do it.


----------



## ModlrMike

Occam said:
			
		

> My personal opinion is that we veterans irretrievably lost the RCL some time ago, and while the body is still alive, it's on life support.  Mathematically, the RCL could be taken back - but realistically, I don't think we'll ever muster the numbers to do it.



I respectfully disagree... the Legion lost us.

They went out of their way to lose us by making us feel unwelcome outside of Remembrance day. Even then, the RCL remained focused on the WWI, WWII, and Korea vets almost exclusively. I remember there being some big announcement about a new "Member at Large" category of membership, but absolute silence thereafter. 

The Legion's privileged status provides it the opportunity to be greatly involved in the release process as a way of attracting potential members. Pure and simple, they dropped the ball here.

I agree with you contention that we're seeing a repeat of the 1920s though. Will that see the Legion rise from the ashes? I don't know. Very soon now their veteran membership will be made up of mostly Korea vets, but they're not much younger than the WW2 vets. 

What I do know is that any new veteran organization needs to have a polished public face, and an impeccable administrative structure. Inarticulate ramblings and whining because you don't want to play by the rules do nothing to maintain the reputation of veterans in the mind of the public.


----------



## George Wallace

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree... the Legion lost us.
> 
> They went out of their way to lose us by making us feel unwelcome outside of Remembrance day. Even then, the RCL remained focused on the WWI, WWII, and Korea vets almost exclusively. I remember there being some big announcement about a new "Member at Large" category of membership, but absolute silence thereafter.



I have to agree with these points.  The Legion lost us.  Then instead of trying to correct their mistake, they brought in civilians with no military backgrounds to fill their voids, further alienating younger generations of veterans.


----------



## Jed

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have to agree with these points.  The Legion lost us.  Then instead of trying to correct their mistake, they brought in civilians with no military backgrounds to fill their voids, further alienating younger generations of veterans.



Absolutely correct.   So what should modern vets do about it?  The best approach is to quietly take back our Legion. Far better than forming several different organizations and then attempting to band them together sometime in the future.


----------



## JS2218

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Internet press releases do not equal advocacy. If the RCL wants to attract young veterans, they need to be the first person to jump at the chance to speak to the media on our behalf instead of Blais.



I agree with this. If there's one thing Mike Blais has going for him, it's that he's technologically- and internet-savvy enough to be on all the major platforms *and* to communicate a compelling message that makes the media come to him. Maybe, then, one of the policies we as internal, Legion members, should be pushing for is to have more of our younger, Generation Y/Afghanistan generation veterans represented in and throughout Dominion Command. That would include having a savvy late-20/early-30 veteran in a key communications role, such as Director of Communications, Media Spokesperson, etc. Because right now, nothing against the current executive, but they're quite the WASPY late-60s bunch.


----------



## JS2218

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> The Legion has built itself into a respected organization in the eyes of the general Canadian population. Last year - yes, most likely in response to the attacks on CAF members in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Ottawa, however - the Legion saw unprecedented support for its poppy campaign.



I'm curious why you believe this. Following the terrorist attacks in St Jean and Ottawa, the Legion refused to distribute poppies before the already-established lead-up to Remembrance Day. In my opinion, this was an opportunity for the Legion to demonstrate that it stood behind our veterans - past and present - and yes, get a bit of a fundraising boost by distributing the poppies early. By refusing to hand out the poppies to comemmorate WO Vincent and Cpl Cirillo, the Legion demonstrated just how out of touch it was with present-day veterans *and* with Canadians who wanted an opportunity to show their support for the military and veterans as a whole.


----------



## Occam

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree... the Legion lost us.
> 
> They went out of their way to lose us by making us feel unwelcome outside of Remembrance day. Even then, the RCL remained focused on the WWI, WWII, and Korea vets almost exclusively. I remember there being some big announcement about a new "Member at Large" category of membership, but absolute silence thereafter.



The way you've put it, I'd have to agree with you.



			
				Jed said:
			
		

> Absolutely correct.   So what should modern vets do about it?  The best approach is to quietly take back our Legion. Far better than forming several different organizations and then attempting to band them together sometime in the future.



Referring back to the 100,000 number I tossed out earlier as an example - how are we going to get that number back through the front door of the RCL? 

The challenges you face getting veterans to give the RCL a second look are pretty close to the same challenges that the messes face these days.  Were it not for mandatory mess dues, many messes would have been shuttered a long time ago.  You can force them to pay mess dues, but you can't force them to come to the mess.  Other than the advocacy aspect of the RCL, most modern vets just don't gravitate to the social aspect of the Legion (much like they no longer gravitate to the social life of the mess).



			
				JS2218 said:
			
		

> Because right now, nothing against the current executive, but they're quite the WASPY late-60s bunch.



I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed that, looking solely at their gongs, Mr. Irvine appears to be the only one who's served, or at the very least the only one who served long enough to get a CD.  I don't think I've ever seen so many QDJM and QGJM assembled in one place.



			
				JS2218 said:
			
		

> By refusing to hand out the poppies to comemmorate WO Vincent and Cpl Cirillo, the Legion demonstrated just how out of touch it was with present-day veterans *and* with Canadians who wanted an opportunity to show their support for the military and veterans as a whole.


 :goodpost:
I'd completely forgotten about that, but it left me scratching my head at the time.


----------



## ModlrMike

JS2218 said:
			
		

> Maybe, then, one of the policies we as internal, Legion members, should be pushing for is to have more of our younger, Generation Y/Afghanistan generation veterans represented in and throughout Dominion Command. That would include having a savvy late-20/early-30 veteran in a key communications role, such as Director of Communications, Media Spokesperson, etc.



That's unlikely to happen because you would have to wrest power from the hands of the current establishment.



			
				JS2218 said:
			
		

> Because right now, nothing against the current executive, but they're quite the WASPY late-60s bunch.



A very telling set of photographs.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Occam said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed that, looking solely at their gongs, Mr. Irvine appears to be the only one who's served, or at the very least the only one who served long enough to get a CD.  I don't think I've ever seen so many QDJM and QGJM assembled in one place.



You missed Larry Murray and Brad White


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Larry Murray is both a gentleman and interested in the plight of soldiers, sailors and airmen. I know this from my personal dealings with him. Hopefully, he can turn the ship around.


----------



## Occam

recceguy said:
			
		

> You missed Larry Murray and Brad White



As I understand it, the Grand President is pretty much a figurehead and doesn't get involved with the day to day operation of the Legion, although I may stand to be corrected on that.  I've actually sailed with Larry Murray, when he was CANCOMDESRON ONE, back when we had such a thing.  I agree he's a top notch guy.  I missed the CD on Brad White's blurb - I need new glasses, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## OldSolduer

Jed said:
			
		

> Absolutely correct.   So what should modern vets do about it?  The best approach is to quietly take back our Legion. Far better than forming several different organizations and then attempting to band them together sometime in the future.



Concur. Well said and my thoughts exactly. Most people know who the RCL is. They'd be hard pressed to name any other veterans org.


----------



## Good2Golf

I would give the RCL partial marks at least, for having VAdm(Ret'd) Murray as Grand President.  That is where some/much of the behind the scenes influence will come.  Only 25% vets in the executive is pretty telling though...that may take a while to change, and likely not without a fight from the "heavy right chesters"...


----------



## medicineman

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Concur. Well said and my thoughts exactly. Most people know who the RCL is. They'd be hard pressed to name any other veterans org.



Though, looking at the majority of their executive, they'd be hard pressed to name any actual vets in said organization...

MM


----------



## dapaterson

It's telling that in the bios, the Legion's internal Meritorious Service Medal is given the same pride of place as left-side medals, perhaps leaving the reader to think that they were honours from the Crown.


----------



## Good2Golf

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's telling that in the bios, the Legion's internal Meritorious Service Medal is given the same pride of place as left-side medals, perhaps leaving the reader to think that they were honours from the Crown.



I assumed it was for the Civilian Division, but didn't see any blue//white...they should be clearer and say, "awarded the Legion's Meritorious Service Medal." ???


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Only 25% vets in the executive is pretty telling though...



Yes it is...........but not about The Legion.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm pretty embarrassed at what I'm seeing from vets on Mr O'Toole's VA facebook page. A lot of childish remarks challenges and jabs. Lots of vets fighting each other and "did you even serve?! challenges.


----------



## upandatom

I have to agree that the RCL is pushed/geared and empowers WWI, WWII, and Korea alot more then Afghanistan. Saying that, that is within their right though. Not that Afghanistan should be forgotten, but it does prove they are lost in touch to the currently serving and recently retired members. I am seeing ANAFs gain more popularity amongst senior/about to retired/recently retired members. (Kingstons near the base usually has a fair amount of people in it). They are very different wars, different circumstances, different reasons. WW1 and WW2 had the support of the whole Country (Most except for Quebec) to "Go get em boys" unlike Afghanistan where alot of people were confused as to why we were there really, and alot of people disagreeing with the fact of us being there(Media not helping with very little explanation to the good we were doing there). Lets not kid ourselves either, the general populace in Canada is nowhere near as patriotic as our southern neighbours. 
There is a huge disconnect between the RCL and the members serving now. Members serving/retiring now arent seen as veterans by the general population. In that sense, they would get the feeling direction they arent, and in turn they would not join, they would turn to an ANAF if they chose. 

Leave that to the side, and other people are leaving the military out of frustration, whether it be they dont want to leave and are being shown the door, or are not happy and getting fed up, or something like the government approving the new VAC and feel abandoned, lost. What is the Legion going to do about it. Thus far nothing.  
So those members keep their distance.


----------



## Brasidas

Its been said before - the Legion, as in the old boys' club of WWI and WWII vets, never wanted us. My father, with 20 years service (including Desert Storm), wasn't a "veteran". The Korea guys were less than welcome. It was their club, and it stayed that way up until they got to haggard to do it anymore, when they brought their kids in to inherit it.

They didn't "lose touch", they never had it. 

It was a club for a very specific demographic: early- to mid-twentieth century civilians who rallied to the colours during total war when everybody felt they had to. All their hometown friends were there and there wasn't a hell of a lot of political disagreement for club advocacy to overcome, because it was a club of the dominant demographic. Professional soldiers and part-time reservists, even at the time, were not part and parcel of that group.

This is not a club that's gone astray from its mission, its a club that has, in spirit at least, always focussed on what it considers important - the wishes of its own members. And it continues to succeed in that mission.


----------



## jollyjacktar

When my dad got back to Calgary from overseas, he went into the #1 Branch downtown.  In uniform as well, IIRC, he was f'd off and told to hit the bricks.  Needless to say he was bitter and twisted for many years and would have nothing to do with them because of that.  Eventually he did forgive and joined, but never forgot.


----------



## Jed

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> When my dad got back to Calgary from overseas, he went into the #1 Branch downtown.  In uniform as well, IIRC, he was f'd off and told to hit the bricks.  Needless to say he was bitter and twisted for many years and would have nothing to do with them because of that.  Eventually he did forgive and joined, but never forgot.



My uncle got back from WWII having been an RCAF airman who was stationed mostly in England and then bounced over to Germany. When he got back the Legion more or less told him to f'k off as he was not  Cbt arms (some things never change) He never did join the RCL.

Also of note, some of the old guard in the Legion after WWII were Cbt Arms but never deployed.  It was pretty much who you knew in the Branch or Zone.


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> When my dad got back to Calgary from overseas, he went into the #1 Branch downtown.  In uniform as well, IIRC, he was f'd off and told to hit the bricks.  Needless to say he was bitter and twisted for many years and would have nothing to do with them because of that.  Eventually he did forgive and joined, but never forgot.


This needs to be avoided. It must be inclusive to all veterans - Cyprus, Croatia etc....or the RCL will become even more alienated.


----------



## mariomike

opcougar said:
			
		

> Lets be fair...a lot of these legions need modernizing, and young people don't exactly see it as Moxies, Lone Star, Jack Tuesdays, Don Cherry's, etc



Nov 09, 2015 

Legions embrace rock shows, gastro pubs to keep doors open
Canada's legions are getting creative and will try anything to stay alive in changing times

A half-naked front man paces a well-worn Calgary stage, screaming frenetically at a crowd of enthusiastic heavy metal fans.
It's just another night at Calgary's No. 1 Legion.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/royal-canadian-legion-remembrance-day-poppy-1.3306138


----------



## OldSolduer

mariomike said:
			
		

> Nov 09, 2015
> 
> Legions embrace rock shows, gastro pubs to keep doors open
> Canada's legions are getting creative and will try anything to stay alive in changing times
> 
> A half-naked front man paces a well-worn Calgary stage, screaming frenetically at a crowd of enthusiastic heavy metal fans.
> It's just another night at Calgary's No. 1 Legion.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/royal-canadian-legion-remembrance-day-poppy-1.3306138



Hell of a good idea. Younger vets need to know they will be welcomed.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Hell of a good idea. Younger vets need to know they will be welcomed.



It still leaves the question: *what are the other 1400 branches doing to get on board the 21st century train?* One branch in Calgary bringing in rock bands doesn't do anything to make any other branch more welcoming. The Legion has good institutional values, but it's broken at the Branch level in so many places because they are locked in a cycle of perpetuating the service club environments that their fathers belonged to. The Legion, *as an institution*, has to promote change among its Branches to develop a bow wave of modernization. It needs more momentum than individuals trying to change individual branches can produce. Where is the institutional leadership?


----------



## the 48th regulator

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It still leaves the question: *what are the other 1400 branches doing to get on board the 21st century train?* One branch in Calgary bringing in rock bands doesn't do anything to make any other branch more welcoming. The Legion has good institutional values, but it's broken at the Branch level in so many places because they are locked in a cycle of perpetuating the service club environments that their fathers belonged to. The Legion, *as an institution*, has to promote change among its Branches to develop a bow wave of modernization. It needs more momentum than individuals trying to change individual branches can produce. Where is the institutional leadership?



A branch in Toronto has also embraced modern thinking.  They have opened up to Medical Marijuana and allow a support group for Veterans to be held there, Run by MFT (Marijuana For Trauma).  I will be at the next Meeting, be there or be square!!

Legion making changes to halt dwindling membership

THe first couple of seconds the Gent speaking is a friend of mine, and a Huge Supporter of Army.ca!!!!


----------



## RocketRichard

My branch is active on social media, Facebook, Twitter etc and we are engaging with younger potential members to work 'changing the guard' as it were.


----------



## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> One branch in Calgary bringing in rock bands doesn't do anything to make any other branch more welcoming.



Not just "death metal concerts". ( As the article describes them. )

"From professional wrestling matches to e-cigarette "vaping" competitions, no event is too bizarre to be booked, provided they can pay. 
"The other one was that circus thing where that woman was taking condoms out of her nose," MacCauley says. "I mean that's bizarre, but bizarre or not, that's what is paying the bills."

"Susan MacCauley, the No. 1 Legion branch's general manager, will book pretty much anything into her legion provided they are willing to pay."

"MacCauley hopes hosting events that attract a younger crowd will not only help with bills, but also boost membership sales."



			
				John Tescione said:
			
		

> A branch in Toronto has also embraced modern thinking.  They have opened up to Medical Marijuana and allow a support group for Veterans to be held there, Run by MFT (Marijuana For Trauma).



Interesting website. They seem to be reaching out to everyone: "Our main priority is to provide Veterans of the Canadian Military, Civilians and all First Responders (police, firefighters, EMT) with the first class service and care they deserve."
http://mftgroup.plantsnotpills.ca/about-us/

Something else in the Legion's favour,

Legions, First Nations exempt from new anti-smoking rules
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/legions-first-nations-exempt-from-new-anti-smoking-rules-1.2895055

"Legions were exempt under previous municipal bylaws, and that exemption has been carried over into Ontario's new law said Michael Perley, director of the Ontario campaign for Action on Tobacco."

Similar to when, as recently as 2000, the local Legion was the only place you could buy alcohol in the Junction area of Toronto.


----------



## Strike

I joined the 631 here in Kingston and, although he general membership is somewhat old, they are very open to ideas on how to get the word out and encourage the younger crowd (middle aged and below) interested in coming out.

It's already a watering hole for former and current Patricia's since they named it afte Matt Dawe, and the engineering unit comes out every Friday aft or so and when they have mug outs.

I am also planning on getting to work on their social media campaign.  The woman who currently runs it is very eager to bring me into the fold and, seeing that no one on the executive seems to have an issue accepting help from those who might have experiences that could benefit, is a big deal for me, especially after seeing what happened to the number 9 Legion downtown some time ago.


----------



## runormal

The legions in the area I grew up  in, 
(Small towns in south-western ontario) constantly were (and still are) the place for local bands to have concerts. Granted there wasnt a constant demand but if there was a concert it would be at the legion. For at least the past 10 years.... I also had a few friends who went to school in Ridgetown and the Legion was "the place to drink".

Edit:with Buck and does starting to become cost prohibitive due to all of the rules involed, I wonder if the Legion "will open it's doors further" to provide an alternate option. (Though I'm not entirely sure how alcohol consumption works at a private event as I left the area before I turned 19).

Maybe it is just a small town thing but it never seemed to be an issue to use the Legion.


----------



## Tibbson

runormal said:
			
		

> The legions in the area I grew up  in,
> (Small towns in south-western ontario) constantly were (and still are) the place for local bands to have concerts. Granted there wasnt a constant demand but if there was a concert it would be at the legion. For at least the past 10 years.... I also had a few friends who went to school in Ridgetown and the Legion was "the place to drink".



So this and a few similar posts from others raise a question for me.  Are some Legions more interested in renting out their facilities so the can afford to stay open or do some of these activities actually assist (or even build) the membership?  As an almost 50 year old soon to be retired serviceman I really could care less about the public having a place to drink or a venue for concerts.  Others have noted professional wrestling matches, e-cigarette "vaping" competitions or even a circus thing where that woman was taking condoms out of her nose.  

While I understand that many organizations such as the Legion need to fine revenue streams in order to stay open it still needs to serve its membership.  Many Masonic Lodges or Shrine Centers have facilities that can be rented out by members or even the public they still manage to serve their membership.  

I attended the local Remembrance service today and since I'm new to the city I made a point of stopping into the Legion with the hopes of meeting some people and just spending an afternoon with whatever local Vets were in attendance.  Nice place, typical older membership (although I'm admittedly getting up there in years myself) and the list of upcoming events seemed a little too stereotypical to me.  Euchre nights, scotch tasting evening, a bunch of private events when the facilities would be closed to the membership and the monthly business meeting.  Nothing to catch me eye personally but it was soon clear they are looking for members.  Two verbal comments that I should join and one membership application passed to me before I left.  "You know, we could use some younger members and some new blood around here".

I'm not against the Legion at all but I don't see anything that attracts me to it.  I won't speak ill about them and to be perfectly honest I don't have a solution to their problems.


----------



## dapaterson

The Legion's problems are legion.  According to CTV (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/royal-canadian-legion-hopes-to-reverse-declining-membership-1.2654579), 20% of their members are over 80 years old.  From the halls I've visited, it's clear that most facilities lack a long-term building plan, and are a burst boiler or leaking roof away from disaster.  Indeed, when I googled Legion Financial Report there were numerous news reports of Legions in trouble, some receiving property tax rebates to remain afloat; the one set of financials I did find had the auditors note that they had lost over $1.3M over the past 19 years, and only shown a surplus in three of those years, concluding that the report was written assuming that it was a going concern, but that such an assumption might not hold true much longer.

I don't have a miracle cure or solution. I don't think there is one; Legion Halls serve different purposes in different places - smaller communities may be more likely to rally 'round their local Legion, while larger, urban areas have other options for socializing, other options for facilities.  I do share your concern that in their efforts to scramble to find money to keep the heat and lights on that the raison d'etre could be lost.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> A half-naked front man paces a well-worn Calgary stage, screaming frenetically at a crowd of enthusiastic heavy metal fans.
> It's just another night at Calgary's No. 1 Legion.



Now if it was a half-naked man (or woman) screaming frenetically *in front of* Calgary's No.1 legion, that would be just another night down on that part of 7th Ave.  Well, it was like that almost 40 years ago when we (as privates) would occasionally head down that way (usually in a group for protection) to go to the hotel dive bars that used to bracket the No. 1 branch.  We were more welcomed in the bars than that Legion.  Those hotels are now closed (torn down to make room for "progress") but the area is still sketchy.  I wouldn't be in the area after dark if I could help it.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Strike said:
			
		

> I joined the 631 here in Kingston and, although he general membership is somewhat old, they are very open to ideas on how to get the word out and encourage the younger crowd (middle aged and below) interested in coming out.
> 
> It's already a watering hole for former and current Patricia's since they named it afte Matt Dawe, and the engineering unit comes out every Friday aft or so and when they have mug outs.
> 
> I am also planning on getting to work on their social media campaign.  The woman who currently runs it is very eager to bring me into the fold and, seeing that no one on the executive seems to have an issue accepting help from those who might have experiences that could benefit, is a big deal for me, especially after seeing what happened to the number 9 Legion downtown some time ago.



The Kingston Panthers Rugby Club use it for post game socials.  Or atleast I think they still do.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Are some Legions more interested in renting out their facilities so the can afford to stay open or do some of these activities actually assist (or even build) the membership?


Here in Thunder Bay, Legion halls do offer their facilities for receptions & the like, and they're still aching for members.  Here, some of the issue is that we used to be two cities, with mirrored volunteer organizations, and the history is too Balkanized for any Legion to want to merge with any other - this, almost 46 years after we became one city.


----------



## mariomike

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I'm not against the Legion at all but I don't see anything that attracts me to it.



You may not know or have much in common with many members at your local Branch.

When I retired from the job, I was thankful that the department, as do Police and Fire, has a pensioners association.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Every legion I've been to seems to be stuck in the 60's.  That's army 60's not the austin powers 60's. I feel like a 90 year old when I'm there, they ought to put some money into renovating it (perhaps hire less lawyers?)

Also I've been to a number of non-legion events held at the legion. Besides the decore one of the biggest things I've noticed was the attitude I've seen and felt from legion members towards guests which I would say bordered on contempt.  The over all feeling I got from them was basically ya you rented the hall hurry up and do your shit then GTFO. Not a very welcoming environment.  Getting warned to stay away from legion members really puts a damper on the ambiance.


----------



## Strike

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I'm not against the Legion at all but I don't see anything that attracts me to it.  I won't speak ill about them and to be perfectly honest I don't have a solution to their problems.



One of the solutions is for the Legion to put themselves out there so much more than they are.  The Legion, at its core, is a charitable organization, with their focus being on helping vets and their families.  Unfortunately the only time most people see them or think of them is during the poppy campaign.

The Legion provides bursuraies, helps with scholarships, has various intelectually-based competitions for school-aged children and runs a nationally recognized sports competition that many university coaches attend as part of their recruiting campaign.  Local Legions need to get out there and advertise these events, like they used to 20-30 years ago.

Now, knowing that they are so much more than a bar and there is the potential to support your community would that possibly interest you in joining your local RCL?

Are there issues with some of them?  You bet.  The number 9 Legion used to be one of the biggest ones in Ontario, if not Canada, but nepotism and elitism crushed it and it went belly up.  My own Legion faced a similar fate with tax issues and debts and it wasn't until a complete change in the executive that things started to sort themselves out.  But none of these positive changes can be made without the right people willing to step up when needed, even if it means waiting in the wings until the time is right.


----------



## my72jeep

What do you say?
Attended a funeral service at my local legion this afternoon for a WWII vet.
 After the service I was cornered by a local associate member(if I got it straight his step father served in the 60/70s) He asked me who I was as I'm not a local member, and what medal I was wearing.(CD1) I tell him it's a CD for 12+ years service, Ah he says, and what's the bar thingy for? Well I tell him that's for 10 + more years. Ah he goes. Then looks at me and asks did I serve in any War? Well in for a penny in for a pound, I say "yes the Cold War, and the budget wars". Budget wars? Yes the budget wars of the late 80s early 90s fought tooth and nail, room to room in the halls of the NDHQ puzzle palace. The guy offered to buy rounds as I regaled him of the battle............ To bad I had to go back to work at 3.


----------



## Happy Guy

Interesting.  Since I live in Ottawa I've gone to the National War Memorial or the National Military Cemetery and not to the local legion somewhat near my place (Orleans) for Remembrance Day.  Given all this talk I think that I will go the Orleans RCL to give it a shot.  I want to see for myself if it would be worthwhile.

Cheers


----------



## Teager

If anyone follows the RCL on Twitter you will notice they are trying to get new members in the door. They are defiently trying harder to get more members.


----------



## Strike

I have the day off tomorrow and and going to go renew my membership and help with work on their Facebook page, so all you clowns go ahead and like the 631 Legion page.  ;D

I originally joined to try and get my dad off his ass and involved in the RCL again, but the group there has been so welcoming that I'm quite happy to get involved myself.

This branch does seem to be trying to get the younger crowd involved so I'm hoping having a more active social media presence might help a bit...and it's free!


----------



## PuckChaser

Always good ceremonies on the go from 631, food was excellent after the Remembrance Ceremony too.  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Happy Guy said:
			
		

> Interesting.  Since I live in Ottawa I've gone to the National War Memorial or the National Military Cemetery and not to the local legion somewhat near my place (Orleans) for Remembrance Day.  Given all this talk I think that I will go the Orleans RCL to give it a shot.  I want to see for myself if it would be worthwhile.
> 
> Cheers



After the ceremony at Beechwood a couple years ago, I stopped by the Legion in Orleans.  It was pretty well deserted, with only a few packing up the tables.


----------



## RocketRichard

Kensington Legion #264 in Calgary gets pretty busy and we hope to move into a new building next year. Pop on by and I'll (maybe) buy you a pint. Always looking for new members, especially younger ones.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

http://www.nsnews.com/news/lynn-valley-legion-abruptly-closes-1.2168647

Questions are being raised after the Lynn Valley Legion Branch 114 unexpectedly shut its doors late last week amid allegations of “financial irregularities” within the club.

On Thursday night the Royal Canadian Legion’s oversight body, B.C./Yukon Command and Foundation, called a mandatory meeting with the Lynn Valley legion’s executive to inform them the branch would be put into “receivership.” This information was part of a message posted on the Lynn Valley Legion’s Facebook page by Dave McKay, who is listed as the executive’s second vice-president.

The North Shore News obtained a copy of a letter dated Feb. 3 and sent to Lynn Valley Legion executive members from B.C./Yukon Command president Marc Tremblay that reads:

“This course of action comes following a series of complaints and financial irregularities reported within your branch.”

Tremblay further advised the Lynn Valley executive to investigate the irregularities and conduct a “major review” of controls and accounting procedures.

North Vancouver RCMP spokesman Cpl. Richard De Jong said the police have not been contacted by the legion.

“It’s not uncommon for them to first do their own due diligence,” he said.

While confirming the Lynn Valley Legion’s closure, B.C./Yukon Command & Foundation executive director Inga Kruse said the club is temporarily under its control and an internal review is underway. “That process is part of our best practices to ensure that locations are functioning efficiently and according to our bylaws,” stated Kruse in an email.

A sign posted Tuesday on the legion’s door at 1630 Lynn Valley Rd. said the branch has been temporarily closed and a reopening date has not yet been determined.

The legion’s abrupt closure has left at least one Lynn Valley community group in confusion. Ross Road parent advisory committee has been planning a fundraising event for parents.

It’s unclear what will happen with the sold-out event scheduled for March 5 at the Lynn Valley Legion. Ross Road parent and event co-organizer Shan Bodie first learned of the shuttered legion when contacted by the News.

“What? Are you kidding?” said Bodie Tuesday. “We just booked it with them.”

Bodie is now scrambling after “collecting a lot of money for catering and everything,” as the fate of the PAC event remains unknown. Proceeds from the $30-per-ticket social would benefit PAC initiatives at the elementary school.

One legion member posted on the legion’s Facebook page that she was hoping to play bingo Saturday at the club and was told over the phone by someone in charge at the legion that it was closed indefinitely due to health issues relating to mould in the building.

Members of the Lynn Valley Legion executive did not respond to a request for comment.

Opened in 1930, the Lynn Valley Legion is a non-profit organization that has previously donated close to $100,000 annually to various community groups.
- See more at: http://www.nsnews.com/news/lynn-valley-legion-abruptly-closes-1.2168647#sthash.k3RpuIzu.dpuf


----------



## The Bread Guy

To offer a bit of perspective, even if not EVERYTHING in this media report is 100% correct as printed, 1)  it does have the same flavour as debate here, and 2)  it appears to show it's not _just_ Legion-and-Legion-like groups in Canada going through this -- you only have to change the names in the key points of the article:


> -  Young veterans say (other organizations) more suited for their needs
> -  (legacy organization) should revise its approach, PTSD support group says
> -  (legacy organization) to roll out range of new programs


Shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_ (btw, in this context, the polite definition of "pokies" seems to be video slot/poker machines) ...


> The Returned Services League (RSL) is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year, amid growing criticism the iconic organisation is outdated and not relevant to modern soldiers.
> 
> Former soldier Brent New left the army in 2003, after peacekeeping work in East Timor and turning back refugee boats to Indonesia.
> 
> More than a decade later, he found himself still struggling to adjust to life back home. Mr New was self-medicating with drugs and alcohol, which was contributing to his relationships breakdowns.
> 
> Last year he was hospitalised for two months and treated for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
> 
> "It got to a point where the alcohol and everything I was doing to mask how I was doing just wasn't coping, and that's when I had a breakdown," he said.
> 
> He did not know where to turn.
> 
> "I've never really been inclined to go to the RSL for help," he said.
> 
> "There seems to be a real disconnect between the RSL as an entity and the way veterans are, and what veterans' needs are."
> 
> Recently, Mr New attended the annual general meeting of his RSL and realised that as a 37-year-old, he was the youngest veteran in the room by at least 20 years.
> 
> Solider On, Mates4Mates filling void
> 
> Mr New was contacted by Mates4Mates — an organisation that targets young veterans.
> 
> Mates4Mates Chief Executive Simon Sauer said the organisation provided a range of services, including psychological services, physical training, employment support and educational guidance.
> 
> "We had a case when someone finally had the courage to come to us, and parked outside, but took two hours to come in to us," he said.
> 
> "For the first few weeks they attended the centre and they would sit and have a coffee and not say much.
> 
> "After three months they were actively engaging and laughing, and you could see a distinct change in who they are as individuals."
> 
> Mr New credited his recovery to the phone call he received from Mates4Mates.
> 
> "There have been quite a few things that have been instrumental in getting me to where I'm at, and Mates4Mates was a huge part of that," he said.
> 
> RSL Queensland admitted that its sub-branches were struggling to appeal to the modern veteran. The state branch also helps fund Mates4Mates.
> 
> RSL Queensland President Stewart Cameron said: "I simply asked this young man what would be required for him to join the RSL, and essentially he said, 'Take away the bar and take away the pokies machines and build me a gym and I'm there'."
> 
> Booze and pokies image problem
> 
> Former soldier John Keeley felt a loss of direction after returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, and sought camaraderie on the footy field.
> 
> "I believe that the RSL is more focused on pokies and alcohol ... this is a common belief among my friends that have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan," he said.
> 
> While some RSL sub-branches are providing valuable services, programs are often ad hoc and differ from state to state. Many RSL clubs have no affiliation to a sub-branches, and this means many local clubs do not contribute to programs that support soldiers and their families.
> 
> John Bale from PTSD support group said the RSL should leverage its national resources and revise its approach to adapt to the changing needs of young soldiers.
> 
> "The RSL has an incredible name and an incredible legacy, and it has an incredible opportunity to take a new phase for contemporary veterans and make sure that this generation gets the support they need, " he said.
> 
> Unlike RSLs, which have more than 1,500 sub-branches nationwide, organisations like Mates4Mates and Soldier On only have a handful of offices.
> 
> The recently appointed Chief Executive of NSW RSL, Glenn Kolomeitz, said this year he was rolling out a range of new programs targeting the latest wave of returned soldiers.
> 
> This includes establishing drop-in service centres, and running mentor programs to drive young members into leadership roles.


----------



## rotrhed

Editted to remove article.

Suggest taking a look on the National Post website for an article about an 82 year old lady recently bounced from the RCL for raising a stir over Dominion Command financial and travel practices, as well as conduct at her own rural MB branch.


----------



## ModlrMike

Saw this article on another feed:

Reportedly the Legion in Lac du Bonnet has suspended an 82 year old member for posing some inconvenient questions. I would post the link, but it's from the pen of "he who shall not be named". The source article is available at the National Post site.


Having read the article, I decided I would look up the Legion executive. Now, I'm not slagging here, but wouldn't you think that a veteran service organization would have veterans with service as its representatives? I marvel at the lack of military connections the executives' biographies display.

Cause and effect perhaps?


----------



## Lightguns

The whole article was very curious indeed.  I hadn't heard about the slagging of veterans before.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Lightguns said:
			
		

> The whole article was very curious indeed.  I hadn't heard about the slagging of veterans before.



That same Person, and his cabal have been attacking veterans online, and off.

I know I am one of them.


----------



## Lightguns

John Tescione said:
			
		

> That same Person, and his cabal have been attacking veterans online, and off.
> 
> I know I am one of them.



Seen that for myself just a minute ago, I had not taken much of an interest in veteran politics since the recent election.  Regardless of a position on an issue, I am not sure why it is necessary for Mr Hood, a senior executive of a national organization, to term an opponent "moron".  Particularly when that opponent is following parallel lines of advocacy.


----------



## Teager

> By SEAN BRUYEA
> PUBLISHED : Wednesday, June 8, 2016 12:00 AM
> The national leadership of the Royal Canadian Legion faces a crisis in confidence with its membership along with Canada’s veterans. All Canadians should be concerned with this, given the legion’s responsibility for the poppy symbol and the millions donated as a result.
> The legion once actively and assertively advocated for the rights of veterans and their families. The community work performed by many local branches is highly commendable. Provincial Commands, without consideration of personal reward or enrichment, have frequently launched innovations to assist veterans such as homeless-shelter programs.
> In contrast, paid senior leadership at national headquarters, known as Dominion Command and located in a suburb of Ottawa, is at risk of being perceived as out of touch with not just veterans but legion membership. Much of the blame for plummeting membership can be placed directly on the leadership’s shoulders.
> Why should veterans care about how the legion manages its affairs? After all, of the legion’s about 254,000 paid members on June 1, 62,000 are listed as “ordinary” members. This category includes those who served in Canada’s military but also retired and serving members of the RCMP, civilian police forces, armed forces of all 28 NATO nations, as well as the Canadian Coast Guard.
> There are 700,000 serving and retired Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel. The legion’s website states that almost 100,000 of its members are veterans. However, one insider I talked to estimates that fewer than 35,000 legion members have served in the CAF, or five per cent of the CAF veteran population. Rather than an organization for veterans, the legion exists more like a social club using veterans as props.
> The legion national leadership has long attributed membership decline to the sad passing of war veterans. There is little truth to this. Of the 37,000 members who did not renew last year, only one in 18 was because of a veteran’s death. The legion’s national leadership has failed to curb the voluntary exit of so many, as well as attract enough veterans and other Canadians alike.
> Notwithstanding the legion’s long decline in membership, the legion profoundly benefits from Canadians’ sympathy and support for all veterans. Canadians don’t wear the poppy to honour the legion, they wear it to honour men and women who offer to sacrifice for Canada. That is why all veterans, but also all Canadians, should care deeply about how the legion is managed.
> 
> As the legion website states, “On June 30, 1948, the Royal Canadian Legion was given the responsibility to safeguard the poppy as a sacred symbol of remembrance by the people of Canada through an act of Parliament in which the Legion was granted trademark copyright of the poppy symbol in Canada.” The website also notes, “Canadians are fiercely proud of our veterans.”
> We are also fiercely proud of our poppy. It was Canadian John McCrae’s poem that spawned the adoption of the poppy symbol in many countries to represent the sacrifices of war.
> The legion has what can only be described as a monopoly and legal stranglehold upon the use of the poppy as a symbol of remembrance. Such immense responsibility requires the highest standards of transparency, openness, and accountability.
> Instead, Dominion Command leadership has at times practised a standard that more resembles evasion and obfuscation.
> A barely noticed article in Le Journal de Montréal published just before Remembrance Day last year raised questions about the management of this sacred responsibility. The newspaper reported that of the nearly $16.5 million raised the year prior from poppy donations, Dominion Command could account for only $114,000 awarded directly to veterans from its own Poppy Fund while millions more lay dormant. The legion said Le Journal de Montreal report contained “incorrect or misleading information” and said that the $16.5 million was “distributed to veteran related services in communities across the country.”
> This same leadership recently transferred $500,000 from Canadians’ poppy donations to the Invictus Games when the money may not go directly to Canadian veteran participants. Rather, poppy money would support the operation of the games, involving wounded soldiers from 16 countries. Would providing volunteers and hosting the cross-country torch relay not be sufficient?
> For such weighty responsibility, national leadership has taken a rather tacky path to marketing the poppy symbol. One can purchase poppy drop earrings, poppy napkins to become stained with food, umbrellas, mittens, toques, and headbands, not to mention stuffed poppy puppies. This is far from responsible management of a sacred symbol that represents death in war, loss of limb, and the wounding of minds and souls.
> In an attempt to restore some confidence, Manitoba Command has urged Dominion Command to be more transparent by disclosing salaries and travel expenses. Dominion Command refused to allow the discussion of Manitoba’s motion at the biennial national convention to be held June 11 to 15 in St. John’s, Nfld.
> 
> What will not be discussed openly can be deduced through legion financial statements and other non-confidential sources.
> Not counting Legion Magazine, Dominion Command has 43 permanent employees. Most are clerical staff, such as those who manage supply, finance, and membership. Managing this small group are four directors and a dominion secretary, Brad White. In the public service, 43 employees would merit one director at most. In the military, this would be the equivalent of base or wing administration led by a single lieutenant-colonel.
> In rejecting the motion to reveal salaries, Dominion Command circulated a five-page brief indicating “we pay LESS than the going rates in the marketplace.”
> Steven Clark, director of administration for the Legion’s Dominion Command, told The National Post that it hasn’t been disclosing individuals’ salaries for privacy reasons. There is no legislative requirement to do it, he said, as the organization is not federally or publicly funded. Expenses are tightly controlled after concerns were raised by members in 2014, the Post reported him saying.
> For my analysis, I used the equivalent of market rate or higher for non-directors to deduce, from the 2016 Dominion Command budget, a conservative salary range of the directors. To measure the market rate, I used websites that compare salaries like payscale.com and glassdoor.ca.
> Salaries for the directors of supply and finance are likely $115,000 to $140,000 and $120,000 to $170,000 respectively depending upon whether market rate or above-market rate is applied to other jobs in these sections. Notably, all salaries are budgeted separately from employer-paid benefits such as pension contributions.
> As for the director of administration, the deputy director of marketing, and the dominion secretary, these three salaries were less apparent due to a reorganization not reflected in the most recent budget. Nevertheless, out of a total salary budget of just over $2.8 million, these three positions account for $425,000to $555,000.
> Considering other directors’ salaries, deputy directors could be earning $95,000to $120,000 while the director of administration, likely the highest-paid director, could receive from $140,000 to $180,000. This would leave $185,000 to $255,000 for the dominion secretary’s salary.
> Dominion Command does publish one salary: the janitor/custodian at $26,800 annually, roughly $13.50 per hour. The market median for this job is $16 per hour or $32,000 annually.
> 
> The Service Bureau section is the most opaque. Six service officers and two assistants help veterans access disability benefits, a job similar to Veterans Affairs Canada’s client service agents and case managers. Case managers have medical, nursing, social work, and often post-graduate backgrounds. Do any of the service officers have such credentials? Are they bilingual? Do they have university degrees? Assuming the current director makes $110,000 to $130,000 to manage seven employees, service officers could earn up to $80,000. This is the maximum a VAC case manager makes and 80 per cent more than new client service agents earn.
> Of all sections, the Service Bureau demands accountability and transparency: 90 per cent of its budget is paid for by Canadians’ poppy donations.
> A director in the public service can earn $107,000 to $140,000. Commanders and lieutenant-colonels command ships, squadrons, and regiments earning $116,000 to $124,000. None of Dominion Command’s jobs has responsibilities to justify such stratospheric salaries. It is not clear what responsibility Dominion Command has for what occurs at the provincial or local branch levels. All are responsible for their own accounts, charitable status, tax filings, service officers, and poppy campaigns.
> If Dominion Command approves below- or at-market rates for the majority of its employees, then directors and deputy directors are receiving excessively exorbitant compensation for limited responsibilities. If leadership authorizes more than market rates, then Dominion Command has misled legion membership about salaries. Similarly, paying more than the market demands shows irresponsibility and incompetence in managing trusted membership and poppy funds.
> Part of the problem lies with an elected executive that meets biannually. Paid senior staff may see the executive as a nuisance. The current elected president, Tom Eagles, has spent 37 years in the Legion but never served in the military. He has worked as a groundskeeper and maintenance worker at the recreation centre for the village of Plaster Rock, N.B. The Legion website indicates Mr. Eagles is also past-president of Plaster Rock’s Minor Hockey League and sat on the board of a 30-bed local long-term care facility.
> An admirable rise through legion ranks, but what skill set and experience does he bring to assume the sacred responsibility of protecting the poppy for all veterans and Canadians? Add to this the 75 per cent legion membership who never served in the military, and the appreciation for the poppy is bound to become diminished and distorted.
> 
> Dominion Command and Tom Eagles declined multiple requests to answer questions on these matters or to be interviewed.
> The monumental responsibility of safeguarding the poppy should not remain with leadership that fails the most basic tests of transparency, accountability, and democracy—not to mention sound and fair management. Dominion Command’s doors must be open to a forensic audit so that all of Canada, including Parliament, and every veteran, can attest to the protection and preservation of the most hallowed symbol of sacrifice. The memories embodied in the poppy must remain sacred when the veteran is long gone.
> Sean Bruyea, vice-president of Canadians for Accountability, is a retired Air Force intelligence officer and frequent commentator on government, military, and veterans’ issues.



http://www.hilltimes.com/2016/06/08/why-canada-needs-to-pry-open-the-doors-of-the-legions-headquarters/68360


----------



## ModlrMike

> After all, of the legion’s about 254,000 paid members on June 1, 62,000 are listed as “ordinary” members. This category includes those who served in Canada’s military but also retired and serving members of the RCMP, civilian police forces, armed forces of all 28 NATO nations, as well as the Canadian Coast Guard.
> There are 700,000 serving and retired Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel. The legion’s website states that almost 100,000 of its members are veterans. However, one insider I talked to estimates that fewer than 35,000 legion members have served in the CAF, or five per cent of the CAF veteran population. Rather than an organization for veterans, the legion exists more like a social club using veterans as props.



I rather think that was the point I was making. I admit that neither my wife or I, with our combined 50+ years of service are members. That's probably because the Legion is not particularly relevant to us. To my mind the Legion, like VAC is stuck in the mindset that once the Korea vets have gone, that's it. No more mandate.


----------



## ueo

IMHO I don't think the RCL even considers Korea vets as part of whatever they think they are. Several KVA branches have folded recently with "Nothing Heard" from the RCL in the same locations. (Barrie springs to mind) The RCL is a civilian social club that is riding on what once was. To have members slagging vets is morally reprehensible! I am a vet (40 yrs) and I have been a member of the RCL for several  years but am seriously reconsidering this position as my local branch has very few members with service. This membership appears more interested in renting out the hall, making $$$ and going to all sorts of high cost meetings held elsewhere on my tick. Concern for vets not so much. Just one man's opinion.


----------



## Lumber

I joined a legion near my house so I could play in the men's dart league on Monday nights. Of the 24+ people playing darts on Monday nights, I do not believe more than half a dozen of us had any military experience whatsoever.


----------



## Journeyman

Teager said:
			
		

> Rather than an organization for veterans, the legion exists more like a social club using veterans as props.


That sums it up quite succinctly.  

I cannot recall the last time I set foot in a Legion, even on a Remembrance Day.  This recent exposure of the arrogance and nepotism of their senior leadership merely reaffirms my long-held decision to have nothing to do with them.


----------



## GAP

The 82 year old woman isn't giving up.....she was interviewed on CJOB radio this morning


----------



## brihard

I'm fortunate to be in an excellent branch. On the executive or active in the membership we have several veterans of Afghanistan, Yuogslavia, and UN tours. We've got guys who've been through the ringer with OSIs and dealing with VAC. Veterans are well served by my branch. But we seem, sadly, to be an exception. The organization is indeed withering if it cannot rejuvenate.

The creation of the OSI Special Section is a good initiative, and thoseof us involved want to do some good with it. It remains to be seen how much the rest of the organization will embrace it.


----------



## Teager

Brihard said:
			
		

> The creation of the OSI Special Section is a good initiative, and thoseof us involved want to do some good with it. It remains to be seen how much the rest of the organization will embrace it.



I read a little while ago that the legion is charging $10 to vets that want to use this service. I can't remember where I read this but is it true? If so what's the $10 being used for?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Teager said:
			
		

> I read a little while ago that the legion is charging $10 to vets that want to use this service. I can't remember where I read this but is it true? If so what's the $10 being used for?



I too recall something about $10. Although I don't remember seeing anything when I signed up either. It seems that it's just being mentioned now and very confusingly. Nobody seems to know why we have to pay, or what for. In the meantime, I signed at the beginning but until they can substantiate the fee, I won't be participating. If I get no satisfaction, I'll withdraw and ask them to expunge all my personal info.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Can someone point to an example of how the Legion (or its leadership) has been overtly opposed to veterans ?  

I agree. The Legion is not for me but I am just trying to get the hoopla in this story and I cant see it...  

I do know the Fairview Legion is packed, and I mean packed, most nights of the week (I know this because I live next door to it).  But I have no idea of composition of its membership.


----------



## Brasidas

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Can someone point to an example of how the Legion (or its leadership) has been overtly opposed to veterans ?
> 
> I agree. The Legion is not for me but I am just trying to get the hoopla in this story and I cant see it...
> 
> I do know the Fairview Legion is packed, and I mean packed, most nights of the week (I know this because I live next door to it).  But I have no idea of composition of its membership.



My father was mildly interested in the 90s and was made to feel unwelcome. He was explicitly told that he was not a veteran, as a member released with 20 years service. Leadership and membership was primarily the sons of WW2 veterans, said veterans apparently having some disdain for professional soldiers (as opposed to wartime volunteers). This was apparently a common attitude, and is why KVA existed.

Is it a worthless organization? No, I respect the service officers who try to help folks who are injured and need help. The core of the organization, I don't know where to begin. Its an institution whose purpose is itself and its membership, as opposed to what the public by and large may think it is.


----------



## chrisf

I recently joined our local legion.

We moved to a small town and the legion is the primary reason there's a rememberance day ceremony every year.

I'm one of very few members with any military service and I'm one of the youngest members by about 20 years, but they all seem quite friendly and positive.

I absolutely would not have joined had I stayed in a larger city, but id hate to ever see a time when there was no longer a rememberance day and a battle of the Atlantic memorial, so I'll just suck it up, keep my mouth shut about politics, and volunteer for the odd bingo night.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'm fortunate to be in an excellent branch. On the executive or active in the membership we have several veterans of Afghanistan, Yuogslavia, and UN tours. We've got guys who've been through the ringer with OSIs and dealing with VAC. Veterans are well served by my branch. But we seem, sadly, to be an exception. The organization is indeed withering if it cannot rejuvenate.
> 
> The creation of the OSI Special Section is a good initiative, and thoseof us involved want to do some good with it. It remains to be seen how much the rest of the organization will embrace it.



Maybe those of you involved, need to rise up and not fear certain thugs, and you know who I am talking about.  THis is a phenomenal idea, except the wheel is already been invented by DND/CAF in 2011, the real OSISS, and they don't charge ten duccats....

Other veterans have raised concerns about the value of some of the services the legion provides.

The organization has created a new Operation Stress Injury Special Section for those with PTSD and related injuries. The special section does not actually provide health care, but will direct veterans to already available services. The legion is charging a $10 administrative fee for those who want the service. The legion declined to explain why veterans suffering from PTSD are required to pay the fee .

In addition, *Craig Hood*, whose nomination as interim first vice president for the section is expected to be approved at the convention, has denounced on the National Post website a veteran’s advocate who suffers from PTSD, as well as another injured veteran. He labelled them “as morons.”

Hood’s Facebook page also includes a posting from another individual about those same veterans, who have criticized legion practices, labelling them as “f…tards and losers.”

Hood did not comment. Dominion Command acknowledged it is aware of Hood’s comments about fellow veterans but declined to denounce them.

Brian, grow a set, and caste away that cabal of thugs.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I recently joined our local legion.
> 
> We moved to a small town and the legion is the primary reason there's a rememberance day ceremony every year.
> 
> I'm one of very few members with any military service and I'm one of the youngest members by about 20 years, but they all seem quite friendly and positive.
> 
> I absolutely would not have joined had I stayed in a larger city, but id hate to ever see a time when there was no longer a rememberance day and a battle of the Atlantic memorial, so I'll just suck it up, keep my mouth shut about politics, and volunteer for the odd bingo night.



BZ!

The Legion is not alone in its struggles: http://activehistory.ca/2012/11/crumbling-communities-declining-service-club-membership/


----------



## Lightguns

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> BZ!
> 
> The Legion is not alone in its struggles: http://activehistory.ca/2012/11/crumbling-communities-declining-service-club-membership/



My wife's club, Jemseg Lions, is 21 members down from 140 in the 80s.  Average age 71 excluding her and one other.  They struggle to have enough volunteers for 1 bingo on Friday's, 1 breakfast a month and 1 general meeting.


----------



## ModlrMike

For service clubs, less the Legion, I wonder how much of it is due to government's expansion of social services as well. Many service clubs provided services that were not previously covered by government. Much like how churches in the early 70s were elbowed out of the community services realm by well meaning bureaucrats. The upshot was that inefficient, over arching government replaced church and community groups, with the predictable outcome of less service being provided at the end of the day.


----------



## Lumber

I would also submit that declining membership has to do with advances in technology and social media.

People used to go to the Legion so that they could connect with like minded people.

No need for that any more with the internet, email, smartphones, facebook, and Army.Ca.

There, I've solved it. Army.ca has caused the decline of the RCL.

 [


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lumber said:
			
		

> I would also submit that declining membership has to do with advances in technology and social media.
> 
> People used to go to the Legion so that they could connect with like minded people.
> 
> No need for that any more with the internet, email, smartphones, facebook, and Army.Ca.
> 
> There, I've solved it. Army.ca has caused the decline of the RCL.
> 
> [



That, and the end of prohibition. 

The Legion used to be the only place in town with a liquor license. Talk about a monopoly on fun!


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Legion used to be the only place in town with a liquor license.



From Wikipedia:
"Historically the Legion Hall was the social centre of many Canadian towns. This was especially the case in the provinces with severe restrictions on the sale of alcohol, rules from which the legions were generally exempt."

The area I live in was dry until 2000. The Legion was the only place you could get a drink. Now, there are bars all over the area.  

Branch 46 in Swansea ( constructed as a BESL in 1927 ) 1949 photo caption: "Swansea branch of the Canadian Legion which meets here, has decided to apply for a license to sell beer, according to President C.E. Wright. He said members were 'driven to it by attitude of villagers.' "  ( Although now a part of the City of Toronto, Swansea was a village until 1967, )
The report says the Vice President "resigned in protest". It goes on to say that the Branch had contacted over 20 firms. But, they refused to give the Legion a mortgage. They could only get a mortgage on the condition that a beer licence was applied for.
The Reeve of Swansea said council was against the Legion having a beer licence. 

That was the local Branch in my little neighborhood. Tiny parking lot. Everybody walked to it. Closed their doors a few years ago. 

 "After 85 years, the Swansea legion closes its doors for good.

Legion sold due to rising costs, low membership"
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/4231988-after-85-years-the-swansea-legion-closes-its-doors-for-good/

Photo of the exterior:
http://www.swansea.ca/gallery_Community_157.htm

With the introduction of "smoke free" by-laws in bars, there was discussion that the RCL might be exempted from the new rule. 
That did not happen, so the RCL did not get the business of smokers when bars went no smoking.
"I come here for the socializing. My friends don't show up any more because of the non-smoking. So I come in less and less.":
http://carleton.ca/Capital_News/02112001/feature.shtml

"Dismayed that Legion Halls are included among the places where smoking will be banned effective May 31, 2006, veterans are among the most vocal critics of the new law.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118256271906_113665471/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

I remember a Legion guy telling me at the time that they were looking forward to the new no-smoking laws because they assumed, like the old alcohol laws, that the Legion would be exempt. ie: The smokers would be forced to head to the Legion when the bars went smoke-free.


----------



## Danjanou

I was hoping to stay out of this. I really should be dealing with more important things like getting ready to go to the Dominion Convention in Nfld, where apparently there may now be some interesting conversations both on and off the convention floor. However I once held a leadership role in the military, I now hold one in both the RCL and on this site and therefore should not ignore situations as they develop but try and address them. 

Okay I am not going to comment or discuss reporting procedures, journalism fact checking and/or possible conflicts of interest. Especially as long time long time members of the site are aware of the past history with a certain unnamed journalist.

Some basic facts. Regardless of what type of memberships one has in the RCL there are only two ways it can be revoked.  One is voluntary as several here have done one just quits. You stop going, stop paying dues and eventually you are no longer a member. Should at a later date you wish to join or rejoin then you are entitled to do so.

The second is involuntary and it's not that simple.  No one, no matter what position they hold can arbitrarily say you're out.  Under RCL bylaws open and available to anyone to read on their website http://www.legion.ca/resources/ are the details for filing a complaint under Article 3. Any Legion member in good standing with due cause may file a formal complaint against another member.

 A complaint may, on reasonable and probable grounds allege one or more of the following offences: i. breach of clubhouse rules or privileges; ii. Profane or disorderly conduct in or about any place where any event is being carried on under Legion auspices or control; iii. Breach of his obligations to the Legion or of these By-Laws; iv. Knowingly lodging a false complaint against a member; v. conduct which in any way brings or tends to bring the Legion into discredit; and/or  vi. Theft or misappropriation of Poppy funds, Legion funds or property.

The complaint will be reviewed by the appropriate level, Branch, Provincial Command, or Dominion command and if found to have some merit will proceed. If not it will be dismissed as many minor incidents are. First step offered is voluntary mediation between parties involved.  Should that fail then a hearing will take place, evidence heard and a decision rendered. This process may sound familiar.

Should the complaint be found valid then a punishment against the member in question may be levied. These range from a verbal or written apology. Suspension of club room privileges, suspension of membership and in very rare and extreme cases expulsion from the Legion.

Any person found guilty after this due process naturally has the right to appeal the decision rendered against them. There is a set process for this as well with all steps and timeliness documented.

So despite what I have read both in the original print articles and the various online SMEs since, I can presume based on facts that the following actually happened. The member in question had for whatever reason an Article 3 complaint levied against them. It apparently went to a hearing and if the article is to be believed a decision of suspension or expulsion was levied. This would suggest either the Hearing Committee didn't do a good job, which will come out in an appeal, or the offence was a rather serious one. As to why no comments from the RCL are forthcoming it is most likely the appeal process is underway  and therefore no public comments that may affect that process would be allowed to ensure  a fair and equitable  decision is rendered. 

Now let's deal with the other stuff.  Okay yes there are probably some unqualified persons holding positions of authority in the RCL. They got there same as some CF persons reached high rank, by just sticking it out, playing the game which I once heard called "militia survivor." Just hang around long enough and outlast all potential opponents and you end up at the top of the heap whether you are qualified to be there or not. 

The general apathy but internally in the RCL amongst members who are willing to bitch and complain, but unwilling to step up and take on a role almost ensures this.  Externally the same thing exists. A loud minority at least of the 600,000+ odd Veterans in this country who are not in the RCL have no problems demeaning the place but are equally unwilling to join up put their considered skills sets and expertise to use to change and improve things. As a crusty WO I knew, and who as he is an RCL member and will be at Convention I look forward to seeing again, once said "You're either part of the solution of part of the problem."

Big surprise re vets squabbling and calling each other names all over social media.  Someone noted the RCL lost its relevance to the modern vet due to social media. In the old days they'd bitch at each other over the table of knowledge in the corner of the club room and as wobbly pops went down range said "discussions" would become less polite. These days same thing done from behind a keyboard or smart phone.

 I've been sadly watching this now longer than I wanted to here and elsewhere. Name calling and empire building are only the surface. I've seen Vets set up multiple fake accounts on social media, to reinforce their point of opinion and/or support their attacks on others, and admitted same. Others have sent insulting comments and threats of physical violence on other vets and their family members, and complaints levied against employers. When called on this many use the excuse of illness or injuries to validate their reprehensible actions. 

In all it is immature if not infantile behaviour by that segment of society whom by virtue to their service should be above that, and to be honest I find it disgusting. For the first time in my life, I am ashamed to call myself a Canadian Veteran, not a member of NVOC, or a member of my regimental association(s) or even a member of the RCL, but a Veteran as that lumps me in with several self-serving individuals whose actions, not matter how motivated, and/or justified that they may feel they are, are in the end disgusting. It also lumps majority that seem to have some sort of immediate knee jerk reaction to any bovine excrement said or published without even a cursory check on it first. 

 It is also counterproductive. Anyone with a sense of history would see we are now back to 1919-26 with a literal alphabet of vets organizations, RCL, CVA, NVOC, Green Legion,  CPKA, CANVET, et cetera et cetera, all squabbling over petty differences, self-interests,  and pathetic crumbs and whom do not serve the needs of the veteran community, or the nation as a whole.

Okay now if you wish you can go back to sharpening your pitchforks and getting the torches ready again. I'm going back to packing.


----------



## Journeyman

I was hoping to let your blood pressure drop a bit, but hey, you know I loves ya.  :-*



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> I was hoping to stay out of this.


Why?  You're the most senior RCL person that I know.  As one who 'believes,' I would have expected you here sooner to clarify policies/defend the organization, rather than let the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune build.

While the initial comments -- on this latest go-around -- were initially sparked by _that_  "journalist," many of the subsequent comments here have focused on the declining relevance to veterans (notably the comment I cited about it being a social club using the military as a prop).


Regardless, I personally look forward to seeing if you have any update to provide when you get back from the rock.  :cheers:


----------



## Teager

And some legions want to figure out what is going on. This is a survey from Branch 15 on this very question.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1MJvDCVgnAL11I-dCXF3i2NVkxDcps23L1efPPxgmG68/viewform


----------



## PuckChaser

It was a good survey, some leading questions but lots of space for comments. Definitely a good start to find some root causes.


----------



## Vetstime

Puckchaser: trust me from experience brother, online info can be manipulated to prove the manipulator's point.

I would like to have a beer with you sometime, or a toke.

I respect your opinion as as a younger vet but believe me, online manipulation of ideas is a weak form of control. 

Truth always prevails : )


----------



## rotrhed

I struggle with this. A lot.

I've been a member of my hometown RCL for over 20 years, even though I now live about 4 hours away. While I was in the CF full-time, having a membership there was mutually convenient. It's a small, rural MB branch that needs all the help it can get. The 'old' vets are all gone and I'm one of the few members with any military service. 

This branch is active in the community, holds a meaningful Remembrance Day service and has members that respect, welcome and honour the latest generation of veteran. I've been asked to speak several times at the Remembrance Day service and always feel welcome. Plus this branch has closely followed my career and supported me and my family along the way.

But when I hear about the behavior and lack of accountability at Dominion Command level, I want to terminate my membership. As a dues-paying member, I feel I have the right to know how every penny is being spent. Without the membership, there is no RCL. Toss in irresponsible social media comments by a prospective director, questionable awarding of scholarships to director's children and the poor treatment of vets at various branches and it seems leaving is a no brainer.

I want to support my hometown branch and the good people there, but it's clear national and other branches are failing the membership. What to do...


----------



## Jed

bigzoomie said:
			
		

> I struggle with this. A lot.
> 
> I've been a member of my hometown RCL for over 20 years, even though I now live about 4 hours away. While I was in the CF full-time, having a membership there was mutually convenient. It's a small, rural MB branch that needs all the help it can get. The 'old' vets are all gone and I'm one of the few members with any military service.
> 
> This branch is active in the community, holds a meaningful Remembrance Day service and has members that respect, welcome and honour the latest generation of veteran. I've been asked to speak several times at the Remembrance Day service and always feel welcome. Plus this branch has closely followed my career and supported me and my family along the way.
> 
> But when I hear about the behavior and lack of accountability at Dominion Command level, I want to terminate my membership. As a dues-paying member, I feel I have the right to know how every penny is being spent. Without the membership, there is no RCL. Toss in irresponsible social media comments by a prospective director, questionable awarding of scholarships to director's children and the poor treatment of vets at various branches and it seems leaving is a no brainer.
> 
> I want to support my hometown branch and the good people there, but it's clear national and other branches are failing the membership. What to do...



Took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## ModlrMike

More questions than answers according to an article by a certain author at the NP site today.


----------



## brihard

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> More questions than answers according to an article by a certain author at the NP site today.



The RCL's new initiative has begun recieivng media attention in a few differnet outlets. Unfortunately the entirety of the story is not being told, in part due to the RCL's rticence to comment when asked.

The OSI Special Section (nobody in the legion or prospective membership of the section is using "OSISS" as an acronym, Special Section in Legion parlance goes back to the 1920s) is not going to be directly providing care. It's going to be an initiative to try to leverage the Legion's broad reach to bring care to vets and vets to care, to engage in advocacy on OSI issues, to fight stigma, and to try to find gaps in existing services that the RCL can help remedy. There is no 'fee' charged for accessing services by vets, period. The section will function similarly to an at-large branch of the RCL, and membership of the section (NOT necessary to receive services) will have a $10 membership fee akin to but much lower than what you pay to join an RCL branch.

The RCL's initiative has fostered further infighting within the veterans community, with talking points clearly spoon-fed to media by those who engage far too frequently in Facebook drama. The RCL is trying to take concrete steps, led by the modern generation of young vets, to address one of the biggest emergent problems in the vets community and to try to do real good. It's disappointing and shameful that some cowards are trying to torpedo that through news and social media.

_Edited for compliance with certain site rules - Brihard 2016-06-11_


----------



## Teager

The problem though seems to be no one from the Leadership of the Legion is explaining or trying to clear up the issues. Even Legion members seem confused and don't really know what's going on. Perhaps the Legion needs better communication from its Leadership so things don't get out of hand so quickly.


----------



## brihard

Teager said:
			
		

> The problem though seems to be no one from the Leadership of the Legion is explaining or trying to clear up the issues. Even Legion members seem confused and don't really know what's going on. Perhaps the Legion needs better communication from its Leadership so things don't get out of hand so quickly.



Agreed. However the OSI Special Section is expected to be ratified and formalized within the next few days. With nothing yet official, the interim leadership of the section doesn't want to jump the gun with press releaes on something facing imminent confirmation.

Things wouldn't have 'gotten out of hand so quickly' were a small subset of people not mounting an attack on the initiative using the voices of reporters. Just more blue on blue in the vets community.


----------



## ModlrMike

Yet you have to accept that the Legion OSISS and the CF OSISS could potentially be confused for one another? I hate to be overly suspicious, but the similarity seems far to coincidental to have been a product of chance.


----------



## brihard

I am absolutely not getting involved in the John and Craig Show. Nothing good ever comes of that and it's not something I'm going to spend time or concern on.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> I am absolutely not getting involved in the John and Craig Show. Nothing good ever comes of that and it's not something I'm going to spend time or concern on.



Those always led to some epic Facebook battles for sure.  I think gigs of memory are used up on all sides saving screen shots.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Those always led to some epic Facebook battles for sure.  I think gigs of memory are used up on all sides saving screen shots.



To be quite candid, I don'tappreciate dragging Facebook drama to these means, is there a valid reason for it on army.ca?


----------



## Jarnhamar

John Tescione said:
			
		

> To be quite candid, I don'tappreciate dragging Facebook drama to these means, is there a valid reason for it on army.ca?



Like posting Facebook screen shots here,  yes I totally agree.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Like posting Facebook screen shots here,  yes I totally agree.



Brian accused of Veterans hiding behind a Journalist.  I used those screenshots to point out why the Journalist is REALLY reporting on the topic.

I am not going to get baited by you, so I am going to ask you to please stop.


----------



## brihard

_Significant edit made to this post, removing a portion in order to remain compliant with cite rules regarding some prior legal issues. I couldn't really 'save' the meaning of this portion of the post through careful edits, so I've removed this aprt entirely. Original post continues without italics - Brihard 2016-06-11_

I have separately addressed the interim leadership of the OSI Special Section on this and have told them that silence in the face of questions is unacceptable, and that the section will need to be more forthcoming and candid lest the narrative be determined by the one side that is saying anything. I am not convinced the author did the best job he could have, however it's not his fault he was hobbled by a dearth of information coming from the RCL.

I'm perfectly content to speak to my understanding of and opinions of the RCL Special Section. _Minor redaction edit as per above - Brihard_. I'm not going to get into vet-on-vet social media politics on these means, however. I couldn't really care less who likes or hates each other, it's none of my business, and of everything in the past few days worth of articles I have not commented on dumb crap people have said on facebook. I've always stayed as neutral as I can in that stuff, neither burning bridges nor stepping on dicks. I don't intend to get drawn into changing that now whether it's on army.ca or the comment section of a newspaper. I'm accountable for my own words, I'll let others be held accountable for theirs.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The problem with a lot of veterans are that they act like overly dramatic children on social media.  Their concerns and voices are drown out by temper tantrums,  name calling,  challanges and drama.  A lot of people tune in for the entertainment value which is unfortunate. 

Not trying to bait you here John but if you feel I am then you're always welcomed to ignore me of course.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The problem with a lot of veterans are that they act like overly dramatic children on social media.  Their concerns and voices are drown out by temper tantrums,  name calling,  challanges and drama.  A lot of people tune in for the entertainment value which is unfortunate.
> 
> Not trying to bait you here John but if you feel I am then you're always welcomed to ignore me of course.



Funny thing is you and your crony (Not you Brian, another person) can't seem to leave me alone.  I also see reported to posts, bening a moderator.

Considering you were  once a mentor, act with some decorum.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The problem with a lot of veterans are that they act like overly dramatic children on social media.  Their concerns and voices are drown out by temper tantrums,  name calling,  challanges and drama.  A lot of people tune in for the entertainment value which is unfortunate.



A side effect of not having a strong RCL to be the one unified voice for Canadian veterans (of any war/conflict). As soon as they ceded the advocacy to other groups, every group thinks it has the right answers and the bickering continues.


----------



## brihard

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Ok, if you say so Brian.......



I already said I stand by those words, and even helpfully put them in quotes before you quoted them again in huge letters. Not particularly sure what part of that wasn't clear. When I say I own my words, I own them.

_Edit to add: This post references others that were required to be edited for content. Site rules obligated me to remove my opinion on a particular subject for legal liability reasons - Brihard_


----------



## brihard

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Tehn own them on your means, not here.
> 
> You know the trouble Mike and army.ca has gone through, before whenr people used their "Own words" to attack certain Journalists.
> 
> You, of all people should know better, as you were here when that all went down.  Sorry, you are out of order.
> 
> It may sound noble, when you type it, but I hope you will step up if there are any legal issues agains Mike and the site.



Fair enough. Out of respect for the issues the site has faced before, I have to concede that you are right. It will take me a few minutes to go back and make appropraite edits to shield the site from potential liability. My opinions will still be stated, but in general enough terms that army.ca is protected.

I strongly stand by the things I have been seen to say in the past hour, however whether I like it or not, if I'm to be a member here I have to respect what the owner has previously needed to mandate in order to shield army.ca from potential liability. I will update this once I have made my appropriate edits. It will be necessary for members who have quoted my posts to make appropriate efforts as they deem fit, or to ask another admin to do so. I don't feel comfortable editing other members' posts quoting me.

Give me about ten minutes or so here...


----------



## Jarnhamar

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Funny thing is you and your crony (Not you Brian, another person) can't seem to leave me alone.  I also see reported to posts, bening a moderator.
> 
> Considering you were  once a mentor, act with some decorum.



"Decorum",  thanks for the chuckles John much appreciated on a Friday night night! 


Puckchaser I totally agree.  It's a shit sandwich.  It reminds me of the idlenomore crap and all the chiefs trying to get their hands in the pot.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Brihard said:
			
		

> Fair enough. Out of respect for the issues the site has faced before, I have to concede that you are right. It will take me a few minutes to go back and make appropraite edits to shield the site from potential liability. My opinions will still be stated, but in general enough terms that army.ca is protected.
> 
> I strongly stand by the things I have been seen to say in the past hour, however whether I like it or not, if I'm to be a member here I have to respect what the owner has previously needed to mandate in order to shield army.ca from potential liability. I will update this once I have made my appropriate edits. It will be necessary for members who have quoted my posts to make appropriate efforts as they deem fit, or to ask another admin to do so. I don't feel comfortable editing other members' posts quoting me.
> 
> Give me about ten minutes or so here...



I will do the same and delete my posts with the quotes, Brian.


----------



## brihard

And done. I've done the necessary edits to protect the site from past legal ghosts. I don't particularly like doing it, but I don't own the site so it's not my choice. My opinions on the matter remain unchanged, but I've mostly been able to find a way around the issues surrounding that particular person to still say what I feel I need to say.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Brihard said:
			
		

> And done. I've done the necessary edits to protect the site from past legal ghosts. I don't particularly like doing it, but I don't own the site so it's not my choice. My opinions on the matter remain unchanged, but I've mostly been able to find a way around the issues surrounding that particular person to still say what I feel I need to say.



Roger, I have removed my posts that had your quotes, no need for them to be up, and see the unedited posts.

I also stand by my points, as it is my opinion too, that the members of the Special Section brought this heat on themselves.  Piss poor planning, and attacking anyone that does not agree with them, does not attract supporters.  Especially when they went after the media like they did.


----------



## brihard

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Roger, I have removed my posts that had your quotes, no need for them to be up, and see the unedited posts.
> 
> I also stand by my points, as it is my opinion too, that the members of the Special Section brought this heat on themselves.  Piss poor planning, and attacking anyone that does not agree with them, does not attract supporters.  Especially when they went after the media like they did.



My exact wording on that precise issue to one of the leadership figures in the OSI section is "our comms suck balls". It is an acknowleged issue that has been sadly overlooked. Military vets are used to pushing forward on something and getting it done, less so on the need to test, market, and sell an idea. I have also been pushing the notion that "We need them, they do not need us" with regards to the RCL's engagement with modern vets. Generally speaking both notions are reasonably well received among the early participants in the OSI initiative. "Special Section" has specific meaning in Legion bylaws, but I've pointed out need not necessarily wed us to a specific name in common use. We expect/hope to see ratification in the next few days, that will make the project official, and hopefully with that established, a lot more of the nuts and bolts can be figured out. I'm already aware of one project ready to get pushed up as soon as a final executive is established, and I'm sure others will follow.


----------



## Danjanou

The OSI Special Section was just ratified by the Convention Delegates.


----------



## Teager

> Change to Legion Structure Will Improve Services to Veterans.
> 
> ST. JOHN'S, June 12, 2016 /CNW/ - The Delegates at the 46th Dominion Convention took a huge step forward earlier today after they passed a motion to create the Operational Stress Injury Special Section.
> 
> "This will provide outreach, peer-support, referral services, and advocacy for Veterans and their families who are affected by mental health disorders, including PTSD," says Royal Canadian Legion Dominion President, Tom Eagles.
> 
> "As Canada's largest Veteran's service organization, the Legion is uniquely positioned to help veterans and families affected by Operational Stress Injuries. With the reach and diversity of Legion members, we will be able to touch virtually every community in Canada and connect Veterans affected by OSI with resources that they need to help them and their families. The Veterans who have launched this initiative and those who have already pledged their support are strongly committed to helping their fellow Veterans overcome the challenges of their injuries and regain control of their lives. What's good for our Veterans is good for our communities," says interim President of the OSI Special Section, Glynne Hines.
> 
> Operational Stress Injury – Special Section
> Terms of Reference:
> The OSI Special Section will
> 
> Reach out and assist Veterans and their families affected by OSI;
> Promote public awareness and work to de-stigmatize the public perception of Veterans with OSI;
> Bring focus to the sufferers through assistance, referrals, information and awareness;
> Promote research into treatment and prevention;
> The OSI Special Section will not deliver health services.
> Eligibility:
> 
> Veterans as defined by The Royal Canadian Legion and their families who are/have been affected by OSI;
> Members of the Special Section must be Legion members.
> 
> For further information: Bruce Poulin at Dominion Command, by cell at (613) 292-8760 or bruce.poulin@legion.ca.



http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/change-to-legion-structure-will-improve-services-to-veterans-582623261.html


----------



## Lumber

I'm sure I can get the answer to the question I'm asking by going and checking out the facebook pages you guys are all referring to, but since I don't feel like punching my monitor this morning, perhaps I can get a more tame and less inflammatory explanation from you fine folks.

Why in the hell would anyone have a problem with the establishment of this Special Section? 

"The RCL wants to establish a sub-organization to help veterans deal with OSI."

How is that a bad thing? Why would anyone, vets especially, have a problem with it?

Is it Vets who don't have OSIs complaining that _their_ needs are being ignored?


----------



## mariomike

Lumber said:
			
		

> Why in the hell would any of have a problem with the establishment of this Special Section?
> 
> "The RCL wants to establish a sub-organization to help veterans deal with OSI."



A brief discussion here,

Legion stealing acronyms now? Are they OSISS?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/122832.0


----------



## brihard

Lumber said:
			
		

> I'm sure I can get the answer to the question I'm asking by going and checking out the facebook pages you guys are all referring to, but since I don't feel like punching my monitor this morning, perhaps I can get a more tame and less inflammatory explanation from you fine folks.
> 
> Why in the hell would any of have a problem with the establishment of this Special Section?
> 
> "The RCL wants to establish a sub-organization to help veterans deal with OSI."
> 
> How is that a bad thing? Why would anyone, vets especially, have a problem with it?
> 
> Is it Vets who don't have OSIs complaining that _their_ needs are being ignored?



Because veterans facebook drama. There are various 'factions' within the Canadian veterans community as it exists in online social media, and there are a number of various toxic combinations of personalities. On top of that there is still considerable distrust of the RCL stemming from their support of the NVC some years back. Take legitimate grievances, and add scorched-earth approaches to social media feuds across individuals and organizations, and you have a battlespace ripe for loudmouths who can basically say whatever they want from behind a computer monitor.

There are no perfect ideas or initiatives, but the RCL in this one is enabling a bunch of troops and vets who really do give a damn to leverage the organization's reach for some serious good to potentially be achieved. Perplexingly, that manages to turn into a source of butthurt for some. It is what it is, and the work will carry on regardless of naysayers.

Regarding mariomike's reply- The acronym 'OSISS' is not, never has been, and never will be used by the OSI Special Section or the RCL more broadly. Nonetheless the potential confusion is acknowledged as a problem, and a few of us have been pushing hard for a name change. Most of the leadership in the initiative are understanding of and receptive to that concern, but we shall wait and see what results.


----------



## ModlrMike

Lumber said:
			
		

> I'm sure I can get the answer to the question I'm asking by going and checking out the facebook pages you guys are all referring to, but since I don't feel like punching my monitor this morning, perhaps I can get a more tame and less inflammatory explanation from you fine folks.
> 
> Why in the hell would any of have a problem with the establishment of this Special Section?
> 
> "The RCL wants to establish a sub-organization to help veterans deal with OSI."
> 
> How is that a bad thing? Why would anyone, vets especially, have a problem with it?



Personally, I don't have an issue with it. My concern only relates to the possibility of confusion surrounding the potentially identically abbreviated agencies. I know it's OSI Special Section, but at some point it will become OSISS and therein lies the chance of confusion. While you can control what your own organization calls the new office, you can't control how the public and press see it.

As to the Facebook issue, folks need to chill - on both sides. We don't need "blue on blue" warfare here because the real casualties will be the ones that need help.


----------



## dapaterson

First, I'd say the RCL needs to do a survey of what's already out there - and then choose a name that is different from one already in use.  It looks sloppy to announce something with an abbreviation that's already in use elsewhere that's covering the same ground.


----------



## the 48th regulator

dapaterson said:
			
		

> First, I'd say the RCL needs to do a survey of what's already out there - and then choose a name that is different from one already in use.  It looks sloppy to announce something with an abbreviation that's already in use elsewhere that's covering the same ground.



Well Said,

I can see that no plannig was done, except a description, with catch phrases, and key positions for cronies.

I am not going to bother even saying "We shall see".....Failure from the get go.


----------



## Teager

Another Legion looking for input.



> Comox Legion seeking public input at June 25 open house
> 
> Part of its mission is to serve veterans, members of the military, the RCMP and their families. But 300,000-plus members of 1,400-plus branches of the Royal Canadian Legion also serve a host of community programs across the country.
> 
> The Comox Legion contributes between $40,000 and $60,000 each year to a variety of non-profits in the Comox Valley.
> 
> “We’re not just an old man’s drinking club,” said Rod Bell-Irving, second vice-president at the Comox Legion.
> 
> Branch 160 is hosting an open house Saturday, June 25, an all ages event intended to bring awareness to the purpose of the Comox Legion. The open house coincides with Legion Week, June 24-30.
> 
> “Legions across Canada, to varying degrees, are going through transformations,” Bell-Irving said. “Some of them are closing through lack of support. Financially, they’re not able to survive. Demographically, Legions tend to be older than younger in terms of its members.”
> 
> The B.C. command has released a strategic planning document that suggests Legions will no longer exist by 2022 if branches do nothing differently.
> 
> “They put that out there to motivate and encourage branches to wake up and smell the coffee, and say ‘What are you going to do about it?’,” Bell-Irving said.
> 
> The Comox Legion, one of three Valley branches, is financially sound. Its membership is around 900 people. More than 500 are veterans.
> 
> Still, Branch 160 has initiated a strategic planning process that asks: Ten years from now, what do we see ourselves doing, and where do we see ourselves physically?
> 
> It’s considering three options: do nothing, renovate the 60-year-old building or undertake a total rebuild.
> 
> “We have one of the bigger meeting rooms that we rent out or give away for community members to use,” said Bell-Irving, noting an option might be to add an elevator.
> 
> “We own the land that we sit on, and we own the building. We’re looking at possibly tearing down the building and undertaking a development on the site. The Town of Comox has recently developed a strategic plan. Our site has been zoned in a manner that would allow us to build a structure that could be as high as six stories. That gives us some scope and potential for building a significant structure that might incorporate things like seniors subsidized housing, veterans housing, or some other combination.”
> 
> Branch 160 has invited 25 non-profits — the Food Bank, Therapeutic Riding and RCMP kids camp, among them — to the open house to advertise what they do. Each will be given time to promote their organization and to discuss what the Legion contribution means to them.
> 
> The public will also be asked for input and to consider the question: If we’re not around in five to 10 years from now, what difference would that make to you?
> 
> “We’re asking the public and the community to help us shape our strategic plan,” Bell-Irving said.
> 
> The open house runs from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. at 1825 Comox Ave



http://www.comoxvalleyrecord.com/news/383683961.html?mobile=true


----------



## Red 6

Hopefully, this reply is helpful in providing context reference The Royal Canadian Legion and similar veterans organizations. Unlike The RCL, most US veterans associations/leagues are closed membership organizations that only allow full membership to those who served in specific areas, locations, or time periods. I've belonged to several, including among others the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Disabled American Veterans. MODS: If it doesn't fit within this thread, please feel free to delete it. 

I belong to one veterans organization that raises funds by sending out unsolicited address labels, 50s-style greeting cards, and cheap notepads and pens in the hopes that members will send in donations. Maybe at one time, those sorts of items were useful, but the world is changing. I used to attend meetings of the local post in this same organization, but they were always exactly the same, and after five or six times, I quit going. Another local chapter of a national veterans group does a big flag display in town on Flag Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Independence Day. They set up tables at the grocery store and you can buy Buddy Poppies. On Flag Day (June 14th), my wife and I went to the store and bought some Buddy Poppies, which took some doings since two of the people at the table were talking on their cell phones, and the other one was doing a crossword puzzle. 

So this isn't just an RCL thing, but something we're dealing with in the US too.


----------



## The Bread Guy

"New member tidal-wave coup" is such a harsh term - highlights mine  ;D


> The Legion has long helped those retiring from the military to transition to civilian life. Whether helping Veterans access care and benefits, referring Veterans to programs and supports, or providing opportunities to connect with other Veterans and get involved in your community, the Legion is here to support you.
> 
> *As part of our efforts to help Veterans transition to civilian life, the Legion, in cooperation with the Canadian Armed Forces Depart With Dignity Program, offers a free, one-year membership to all retired Forces members who are not yet a Legion member. This free membership, which includes a subscription to Legion Magazine and access to Legion Member Benefit programs, is one way we thank Veterans for their service, and provides Veterans with the opportunity to get to know the Legion.*
> 
> As you move into a new phase of life, being a Legion member is a great way to stay connected to the military family, to honour and support those who served and sacrificed, and to strengthen your community. For those who want to be more involved in the Legion, you can transfer your membership to a local Legion Branch at any time. As a member of a Legion Branch, you have opportunities to volunteer in your community, add your voice to Legion advocacy efforts, become involved in leadership roles at your Branch, and help shape the Legion in your community and across the country ...


So, how attractive is this "try us out" offer?


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> "New member tidal-wave coup" is such a harsh term - highlights mine  ;DSo, how attractive is this "try us out" offer?



There will be those of us, like myself, who won't be having a DWD or any other such ceremony when we cross the brow for the last time.  I suppose we'll fall through the cracks.  The point is fairly moot for me anyhow.  The RCL branches back home for me are not close to home or convenient.  I couldn't see myself becoming a member once again.  Don't mind the magazine, though.


----------



## Gunner98

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> So, how attractive is this "try us out" offer?



Not very.  It seemed like it might be almost 3 years ago when I retired but I saw the letter the other week when I was clearing some files.  I have had no desire to darken the doors of the Legion.  My mother was part of a Branch Ladies Auxiliary for close to 50 years that voted to disband recently.  The RCL withers IMHO and the vets and ladies roll over in their graves.


----------



## medicineman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> "New member tidal-wave coup" is such a harsh term - highlights mine  ;DSo, how attractive is this "try us out" offer?



First DWD I ran, I filled the form out and left it undated for the retiree, as he was going to do mission work for a year before returning to Canada...I do well recall my own and never got such a thing.  Come to think of it, I still haven't received a few certificates...

MM


----------



## Teager

Seems the Legion is tired of the misinformation in the news.



> 29
> JUL
> 2016
> LETTER TO THE EDITOR
> Royal Canadian Legion fed up with misrepresentation by media
> SHARE
> Ottawa, 29 July 2016
> 
> Dear Editor:
> 
> Between the dates of 25 February 2016 and 27 July 2016, Postmedia published nine articles about The Royal Canadian Legion and Dominion Command which have inaccurate, misleading, or incomplete information. Dominion Command is committed to good governance, transparency and accountability and we are dismayed that inaccurate information continues to circulate about the Legion and Dominion Command.
> 
> In article after article, we see pervasive false information. Claims that we are charging a fee for ill and injured Veterans to receive care through the Legion’s new OSI Special Section – false! Claims accusing us of suspending a Legion member who was concerned about the treatment of Veterans – incomplete and misleading! Claims insinuating Dominion Command lacks financial transparency and accountability – false! There are simply too many inaccuracies and false information to list and correct in one Letter to the Editor, so we posted a full disclosure article on our website and encourage all Canadians to check it out and get the facts.
> 
> Royal Canadian Legion fed up with misrepresentation by media
> Dominion Command has sent emails, requested interviews, and even participated in interviews with media to correct the information, yet these inaccuracies continue to be published. These articles unfairly discredit the Legion and the good work we do in support of Veterans and their families.
> 
> As a democratic member-based organization with nearly 300,000 member volunteers in over 1400 branches across the country we recognize we are not perfect. Where we see challenges we work to improve them. From reviewing and ensuring accountability and transparency, to strengthening member and public communications, to reaching out to the younger generation of Veterans and listening to their needs, to working with Provincial Commands and Branches to ensure all Veterans have access to Legion programs and support, to creating a welcoming atmosphere at all Branches, and more… we are moving this organization forward.
> 
> To Postmedia we say… get the facts, stop the insinuations and false accusations and check your ethics. We will no longer stand quiet while Postmedia writes this drivel and other media outlets blindly republish it, tarnishing the good name of The Royal Canadian Legion.
> 
> Get the facts!
> 
> Dave Flannigan
> Dominion President
> The Royal Canadian Legion



http://www.legion.ca/article/letter-to-the-editor/

This link takes you to the page of false vs the facts.

http://www.legion.ca/article/royal-canadian-legion-fed-up-with-misrepresentation-by-media/


----------



## dapaterson

Their attempt to debunk includes a misdirection.  While they may be unable to disclose precise executive compensation, registered charities already disclose to the CRA the range of compensation paid to the ten highest paid people in the organization.  Adopting the same method would provide the increased transparency requested while respecting the privacy rights of those involved.

Many Legion halls are given tax breaks and other public support; it is not unreasonable to expect, in return, that the recipients of that largess exercise increased financial transparency.


----------



## Michael OLeary

In my opinion, a telling piece of that Misrepresentation article is buried in the section on Beznoski:



> This situation is an internal branch matter and falls under the provisions and processes of our General By-Laws. Dominion Command under those very By-Laws does not have the authority or jurisdiction to intervene in this matter.



Despite consistently describing "the Legion" as a singular entity that veterans and other Canadians should join, they admit that there is a coordination and control separation between branches and Legion "command" layers. 

When RCL members are encouraging other to join, they say _"Join the Legion."_ they do not say _"Join Our Branch ... which does some things the RCL promotes, but otherwise does whatever our Branch wants to do."_ The result is that many people, both inside and outside the RCL, fail to understand this separation of authorities, priorities, and actions by local (i.e., Branch) executives. The outcome is that if someone has a problem at the Branch level, they may often perceive, and describe, it as a problem they have with "the Legion." For the Legion Command to then step back and claim that the perception is not the reality when they do not clearly identify that difference up front, or encourage Branches to be open about it, is a deceptive approach. 

The RCL has some excellent institutional values and objectives, but they are undermined by the lack of any institutional controls on the execution of local objectives and decision-making under their "brand." The only people to be blamed for that misunderstanding is the RCL (through every level of control from Branch up to Dominion Command). They have made their bed, and denying the problems exist changes neither the reality of individual experiences, or the perception that the organization has issues. It only leads to the question, "what else are they hiding?"


----------



## Wrangler

The Legion itself is trying very hard to institute change and it's a difficult process. For decades it was an organization that was run by WWII vets and everything revolved around them, along with the attitude. In many instances Korean Vets were shunned and there was so much arguing over who exactly is a vet. 

The organization is now focused on the modern vet and their needs. Slowly we are changing the perception within on who we are, and it's so much for the better. More and more people serving on Executive Committees are vets who understand where we need to get to. The most difficult task is getting the modern vet to join the Legion as most still feel it's just a drinking establishment, and it's not. It's ripe for those that wish to make change and make a much stronger veterans organization. It's imperative that we support the Legion to enable one organization to speak on behalf of ALL veterans.

So many articles have been written about the Legion that were total lies. Apparently facts get in the way of a good story.

I presently serve as a vice-president at the Provincial Command level and we're working damn hard to make it better and stronger. The new OSI program is a great initiative and something that was needed.


----------



## Michael OLeary

I would like to know:

In how many places are there multiple Legion branches in close proximity that are slowly dying because they refuse to amalgamate and conserve resources to support the organization's purposes and objectives?

How many branches are dying and using all their resources to try and maintain a building that is now too old and/or too big to suit their current purposes?


----------



## MilEME09

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I would like to know:
> 
> In how many places are there multiple Legion branches in close proximity that are slowly dying because they refuse to amalgamate and conserve resources to support the organization's purposes and objectives?
> 
> How many branches are dying and using all their resources to try and maintain a building that is now too old and/or too big to suit their current purposes?



I think it's location as well, I know of one branch in calgary thats pretty dead, that is also fairly hidden in whats now mostly a heavy commercial area. Most people don't know some of these branches are even there. I would argue some branches need to relocated, and others need to merge together.


----------



## runormal

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I would like to know:
> 
> In how many places are there multiple Legion branches in close proximity that are slowly dying because they refuse to amalgamate and conserve resources to support the organization's purposes and objectives?
> 
> How many branches are dying and using all their resources to try and maintain a building that is now too old and/or too big to suit their current purposes?



Where I grew up there are far too many legions, especially given the population density. Search royal canadian legion in Google maps over south western Ontario and you'll be shocked. (See attachment)



We did have many bases in the area (Clinton, Centralia, Ipperwash to name a few and there was also part of RCR was in London). 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Clinton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCAF_Station_Centralia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Ipperwash


If these buildings are "paid" for i.e the legion owns the land and the operating costs are paid for by the local membership, that is one thing. However if they aren't then a serious re-evaluation should be done.

With that being said the public typically rallies behind the legion, I've seen local concerts, people have held receptions, memorial service etc. The public would hate to see anything else leave the area, however I doubt that they are serving their intended purpose.


----------



## Lightguns

MY wife is a Lion and there are 3 lodges within 10 minutes of each other, they don't cooperate, they don't sit together at larger meetings, and they constantly talk about how each other is not doing good for the brand.  Organized human groupings are all the same, insular and wary of outsiders.


----------



## Wrangler

In regards to branches, I can't speak for Ontario as I personally find it crazy how many branches that are in that province. Where I am from, we're presently reviewing the status of every branch within our Command. Yes, the Legion is in need of modern veterans, badly, and we wish to increase our membership or the Legion will die. At the same time we won't sit back and let a branch solely exist as a social establishment if they are not following the purposes and objectives of the Legion. 

It's so easy to say we want change and to be better at representing every soldier, sailor and airman, but getting there is much harder. Four years ago we had zero serving veterans that were part of our Executive Committee at Command. As of right now six of seven are veterans. Why? Because veterans do wish to take back the reigns from the Old Guard and it's happening as we speak.

Bottom line is we need you. We need veterans to help veterans.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Sorry, mate.  Won't become a member again.


----------



## Wrangler

Your prerogative


----------



## jollyjacktar

Yup.


----------



## BillN

I have never been very impressed with my dealings with the RCL.  As a veteran, why would I waste my time joining joining the Legion when 90% of the membership have no idea about what veterans need, want, or require?  And, more to the point, for the most part make no effort to try to understand us.    

The Legion started it's long descent into oblivion the day it allowed civilians, who have never served a day of their lives, to become full voting members of the RCL.   That's the day the RCL became just a drinking club, not a veterans association.

My wife, who is a 35 year veteran of the RCAF and also has no time for the RCL, and I, would much rather send our money to our respective regimental associations, where we believe it does some good.


----------



## Wrangler

Very valid points you brought up and it's something the RCL faces. As I stated, we're working hard to better represent who we are supposed to be serving. Has the Legion been going in the wrong direction? Damn right it has. At some point you either re-evaluate who you are, or say screw it nothing will change and give up. Luckily the majority won't give up and are working for that change. My job is Constitution and Laws and one thing I learned quick, which most members don't realize, is that the power lies with our own by-laws and not with any Command. If you read and understand the Dominion/Provincial/Branch by-laws, any one individual can ensure the purposes and objectives are followed. Many branches don't do what they are supposed to do, that simple. But all it takes is one member who reads over the bylaws to set things straight. If you don't like any branches in your area, don't join a branch, join through a Provincial Command or Dominion Command. 
I understand someone who had a bad experience with the Legion and not wanting to join. Hell I've wanted to quit more than once. What I'm getting at is I don't want younger members brushing us off so quickly. I'd love to see more younger veterans and serving members step up to the plate and join and help make change happen.


----------



## brihard

Wrangler said:
			
		

> The Legion itself is trying very hard to institute change and it's a difficult process. For decades it was an organization that was run by WWII vets and everything revolved around them, along with the attitude. In many instances Korean Vets were shunned and there was so much arguing over who exactly is a vet.
> 
> The organization is now focused on the modern vet and their needs. Slowly we are changing the perception within on who we are, and it's so much for the better. More and more people serving on Executive Committees are vets who understand where we need to get to. The most difficult task is getting the modern vet to join the Legion as most still feel it's just a drinking establishment, and it's not. It's ripe for those that wish to make change and make a much stronger veterans organization. It's imperative that we support the Legion to enable one organization to speak on behalf of ALL veterans.
> 
> So many articles have been written about the Legion that were total lies. Apparently facts get in the way of a good story.
> 
> I presently serve as a vice-president at the Provincial Command level and we're working damn hard to make it better and stronger. The new OSI program is a great initiative and something that was needed.



I'm involved in the OSI program and am in contact with the guys at the top on a regular basis. If you have any interest in learning more / becomng more involved to help champion it in your region, let me know. I'd be happy to put you in touch.


----------



## Wrangler

Your inbox is full Brihard....contact me via PM.


----------



## BillN

Like many of my veteran friends I will not joint the RCL until the rules on civilian membership are completely re-written.  In my _personal_ opinion as long as this association continues to allow non-veterans to join as members, it cannot be a veterans association.  The same goes for the ANAVETS.


----------



## Wrangler

This text is directly from the Dominion Command website:

"Almost 1/3 of our members are Veterans (Ordinary and Life categories). While the majority of our members (Associates) are civilians, it’s important to note that these individuals are the wives and husbands, the sons and daughters, and the grandchildren of Veterans. They have lived with Veterans and are impacted by the care our Veterans receive. They are intimately connected to Veterans and the issues affecting them. Legion members care deeply about supporting the men and women who serve this country and want to make a difference. They give over 1.5 million volunteer hours every year and support Legion activities financially. Without Legion volunteers the tremendous programs and services provided to our Veterans and their families in communities across this country would disappear."

We are not an association, but a Veteran and community organization. When I first joined the Legion, I myself wasn't impressed with the fact that there were so many folks involved that had never served. It didn't take long to see how much these Associate members brought to the Legion though. In my _personal_ opinion, these members don't get the credit they deserve. From selling poppies, to Meals on Wheels, to regularly visiting vets in hospital. The list goes on.  All done by 95% Associate members. Not because we don't have past serving members in our branch, but because these individuals stepped forward when needed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It is a VETERANS organisation. I appreciate that civilians wish to support us. However, civilians, should not have a vote or be qble to hold executive positkons.

If you need a reason why Veterans won't join, it's  because the Legion is not ours. It's now a  civilian club that uses veteran support as their raison dêtre for existence.

You want Veterans back? Revert back to past practice where you need to be a Veteran to vote. I have a  history of over 40 years of Legion membership  as an Ordinary (Veteran) member. I go in at the NY Levee and pay my dues. I go in the following NY levee and pick up my expired cards and pay for the.next year.

It used to be where you could find me. It would, now, be the last place to look for me.

Restore ownership to us that own the title of Veteran and the RCL will restore itself.


----------



## Lance Wiebe

Recceguy, I couldn't agree more.
I finally stopped paying my dues this year. I had some hopes of changes forthcoming from Dominion Command, but nope, no change.
I may join again in the future, but only when after I see some changes at the Dominion level.


----------



## BillN

Recceguy, I couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## ArmyRick

I think the writing is on the wall, the RCL will not transform fast enough to absorb modern day veterans.


----------



## Lightguns

recceguy said:
			
		

> It is a VETERANS organisation. I appreciate that civilians wish to support us. However, civilians, should not have a vote or be qble to hold executive positkons.
> 
> If you need a reason why Veterans won't join, it's  because the Legion is not ours. It's now a  civilian club that uses veteran support as their raison dêtre for existence.
> 
> You want Veterans back? Revert back to past practice where you need to be a Veteran to vote. I have a  history of over 40 years of Legion membership  as an Ordinary (Veteran) member. I go in at the NY Levee and pay my dues. I go in the following NY levee and pick up my expired cards and pay for the.next year.
> 
> It used to be where you could find me. It would, now, be the last place to look for me.
> 
> Restore ownership to us that own the title of Veteran and the RCL will restore itself.



Agree completely with the additional proviso that a veteran is defined as someone who completed his engagement honourably, or medically released or not NES with a reserve unit.


----------



## mariomike

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Agree completely with the additional proviso that a veteran is defined as someone who completed his engagement honourably, or medically released or not NES with a reserve unit.





			
				ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> The RCL definition of "veteran" is anyone who has served and has completed basic training ie BMQ.



From,

What is a Veteran?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/29033.75.html
5 pages.


----------



## Lightguns

Wow, that is a fine mesh gill net they are casting.


----------



## Lumber

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Agree completely with the additional proviso that a veteran is defined as someone who completed his engagement honourably, or medically released or not NES with a reserve unit.



What? You mean you wouldn't consider someone who was in sea cadets from ages 14-15 as a Veteran deserving of Ordinary membership???

:sarcasm:

(apparently I need to do this now..)


----------



## Halifax Tar

I don't know, is someone who completes their BMQ and 3 or 5 year BE really a veteran ?  

I find the term, personally, veteran thrown around allot for people who "meet the standard" per say but that I have a hard time viewing as veterans.  

I don't know maybe I'm a dick or something but a 20 year old kid with veteran plates who's never been outside the local armouries or training area irks me somewhat. 

In my mind there has to be more added value to the "qual", i.e. must they should have  to have earned the CD or at least 1, 6 month deployment (e.g. NATO, UN ect).  

I am sure I will get flak for the above so fire away...


----------



## Lightguns

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I don't know, is someone who completes their BMQ and 3 or 5 year BE really a veteran ?
> 
> I find the term, personally, veteran thrown around allot for people who "meet the standard" per say but that I have a hard time viewing as veterans.
> 
> I don't know maybe I'm a dick or something but a 20 year old kid with veteran plates who's never been outside the local armouries or training area irks me somewhat.
> 
> In my mind their has to be more added to the "qual", i.e. must have the CD or at least 1 6 month deployment (e.g. NATO, UN ct).
> 
> I am sure I will get flak for the above so fire away...



Veteran plates irk me PERIOD. The issuing authority gives them away like candy or makes a profit of it as a specialized plate.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Damn skippy.  I know I'm special, my mum always told me so.

 :sarcasm:


----------



## runormal

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I don't know, is someone who completes their BMQ and 3 or 5 year BE really a veteran ?
> 
> I find the term, personally, veteran thrown around allot for people who "meet the standard" per say but that I have a hard time viewing as veterans.
> 
> I don't know maybe I'm a dick or something but a 20 year old kid with veteran plates who's never been outside the local armouries or training area irks me somewhat.
> 
> In my mind their has to be more added to the "qual", i.e. must have the CD or at least 1 6 month deployment (e.g. NATO, UN ct).
> 
> I am sure I will get flak for the above so fire away...



I have a similar feeling towards the issue myself. I wouldn't even begin to consider myself a veteran until I went on a tour or did some serious time in the reg-f.

Which is also why I'd never even consider joining the legion. At least not for the next 40 or so years. Maybe when I'm retied.


----------



## CountDC

VAC: http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/about-us/definition-veteran

VAC considers any former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who releases with an honourable discharge and who successfully underwent basic training to be a Veteran.

Merriam Webster Online Dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/veteran

Full Definition of veteran 

a :   an old soldier of long service

b :   a former member of the armed forces

and just for fun the USA: http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/whatvet.htm

A veteran is defined by federal law, moral code and military service as "Any, Any, Any"... A military veteran is Any person who served for Any length of time in Any military service branch

So regardless of our own opinions that reservist that joins in April, completes basic over the summer and releases in Sept is considered a vet. Note that even the ones that are released NES are "honourably released" which I have shared my opinion on before.


----------



## mariomike

CountDC said:
			
		

> and just for fun the USA: http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/whatvet.htm
> 
> A veteran is defined by federal law, moral code and military service as "Any, Any, Any"... A military veteran is Any person who served for Any length of time in Any military service branch



King of the Hill:

VFW is in dire straits as members are lost to the grim reaper. First, they're behind on their propane bill, then their fundraiser goes awry, and are finally evicted from their building. To Peggy's displeasure, Hank invites the VFW into their house. In order to get them back into their own building, Peggy suggests that the VFW should invite Vietnam vets to join their organization. Cotton and the WWII vets don't like this idea ("Vietnam boys?" says Cotton. "No goddang way! The VFW stands for Veterans of Foreign Wars, not reefer-smokin' losers!").



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> So regardless of our own opinions that reservist that joins in April, completes basic over the summer and releases in Sept is considered a vet.





			
				runormal said:
			
		

> Which is also why I'd never even consider joining the legion. At least not for the next 40 or so years. Maybe when I'm retied.



If any Branches are still open.


----------



## Teager

Teager said:
			
		

> And some legions want to figure out what is going on. This is a survey from Branch 15 on this very question.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1MJvDCVgnAL11I-dCXF3i2NVkxDcps23L1efPPxgmG68/viewform



For anyone that took the survey or interested in the results here they are.

http://rclbr15.com/wordpress/surveyreport/


----------



## PuckChaser

Its a fantastic executive summary, and provides a lot of solid comments to the Dominion Command. After looking at the guys who have more Legion bling than real medals on the executive (or any actual military service), I highly doubt they'll entertain canning all Legion medals as recommended.


----------



## Teager

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its a fantastic executive summary, and provides a lot of solid comments to the Dominion Command. After looking at the guys who have more Legion bling than real medals on the executive (or any actual military service), I highly doubt they'll entertain canning all Legion medals as recommended.



I agree it is an extremely well done report with the data coming straight from vets and serving members themselves. Hopefully it brings some change in.


----------



## Lightguns

Read the whole report, a number of interesting things that seem trivial but once gathered together show a pattern of petty jealousy between civilian legion members and veterans aspiring to be legion members.  The specialty badges was a good one.  Yes, democratically decided that badges would not be part of the legion uniform BUT the majority of the voters were people who would never earn said badges.  There is a pattern of the legion attempting in immortalize the WW1 and WW2 vets as the only true veterans.  

The Beznoski issue was obviously mis-handled and they attempt it in the report, finally.


----------



## Halifax Tar

That was excellent initiative by Br 15.  

They seem to be ahead of the curve in trying to figure out some fixes to their problems.  

I have a Legion about 75m from my house.  I should at least try...


----------



## mariomike

Lightguns said:
			
		

> There is a pattern of the legion attempting in immortalize the WW1 and WW2 vets as the only true veterans.



According to VAC, their average age is 92. 



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> So regardless of our own opinions that reservist that joins in April, completes basic over the summer and releases in Sept is considered a vet.


----------



## Wrangler

I'm very appreciative of what Br 15 has done. This will all be brought up at our next provincial convention and all branches will be made aware of the findings. Dominion Command can be difficult to deal with so rather than hope that change starts from the top and work down, we'll work at changing from the bottom on up. 

If any members here wish to add their own comments in regards to Br 15's survey, please feel free to PM me. More specifically, if you have any issues directly related to any branches within Quebec Command, I would like to hear about them.

There are many of us trying very hard to right the wrongs and to change the culture of the Legion. It is not an easy process, but change has started.


----------



## Lightguns

Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92

Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.


----------



## George Wallace

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92
> 
> Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.



Not all Legions are so........so ignorant towards veterans.....

Here is a good reference to pass on to others who may face similar ignorant personalities:

A Guide to Commemorative Services posted by Veterans Affairs.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92
> 
> Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.



I know Jamie, we did PLQ together and we have a maintained casual chat on FB every now and then.  Hes a good man,  and I was very sad to see his treatment from this branch.


----------



## the 48th regulator

http://www.legion.ca/article/legion-re-affirms-policy-on-placing-wreaths-on-remembrance-day/


Legion Re-Affirms Policy on Placing Wreaths on Remembrance Day


OTTAWA, October 28th, 2016 – The Legion wishes to reaffirm its policy governing the placing of a wreath for Remembrance Day.

“Anyone who wishes to pay their respects to the Fallen during a Remembrance Ceremony are welcomed to do so,” says Royal Canadian Legion Dominion President, Dave Flannigan. “Placing a wreath at any commemorative event is an accepted practice that should be available to all Canadians,” adds Flannigan.

The Royal Canadian Legion follows the Ritual, Awards and Protocol Manual for conducting Remembrance Day ceremonies, which outlines the Order of Service, indicating when official wreaths and wreaths by individuals or organizations can be placed.

Although this procedure applies to the National Ceremony in Ottawa, it can be adapted to meet local Branch arrangements.  Branches organizing local ceremonies are responsible for their individual events.  However, anyone who wishes to place a wreath at a Remembrance Day Ceremony should certainly have the opportunity to do so.


----------



## dangerboy

I agree that everyone should be allowed to lay a reef but I think that the majority of them should be in place either before the parade or placed after the parade.  I have been on way too many parades where they spend a good 20-30 minutes as every organization and store/union in town lays a wreath. Seeing the poor cadets and older veterans freezing on parade and some cases passing out while the procession of wreaths goes on is not good. Limit the wreaths to the Town, the Legion and save the Hooterville general store till another time.

That is my rant about the parade.


----------



## brihard

Branches 15 and 28 have nicely illustrated the concept of the 'strategic Corporal', and how anyone at any level can influence an organization very positively, or very negatively, entirely disproportionate to their role in the organization as a whole.


----------



## Wrangler

I'm responsible for Quebec Command's main ceremony in Montreal. I'd just like to make things clear to folks who may not know. Every remembrance ceremony should be following the exact same order of events. The first twelve wreaths belong to the Vice Regal Party and should be announced 1 at a time...not negotiable. The remainder should be laid respecting the time troops, vets and general public have to remain standing relatively still. We have the wreaths that are laid after the VR Party laid two at a time, with legion escorts ensuring they have a moment to pay respect, but keep moving. We have approx 40-45 in total, and that really should be around the max. After the last wreath is laid, we ask for anyone from any other organizations or individuals that wish to lay a wreath, to lay it now. We do not introduce them, but every Canadian has a right to lay a wreath....period.


----------



## George Wallace

Well said Wrangler.

Thank you.


----------



## Wrangler

Also, please DO NOT follow the order of precedence that VAC uses on their site. That info did not come from the Legion and it is wrong. The Silver Cross Mother is second to the Queen or her rep....once again, not negociable


----------



## Michael OLeary

Wrangler said:
			
		

> Also, please DO NOT follow the order of precedence that VAC uses on their site. That info did not come from the Legion and it is wrong. The Silver Cross Mother is second to the Queen or her rep....once again, not negociable



Perhaps a discrepancy like that is something the RCL needs to sort out with VAC, rather than simply telling people to ignore the direction from VAC.


----------



## dapaterson

Wrangler said:
			
		

> Every remembrance ceremony should be following the exact same order of events.



Why?  Why can there be only one way to remember?

Is the important part ritual, or remembrance?


----------



## Wrangler

The order of ceremony that is used by Legion's across Canada was developed jointly with DHH to serve as the Remembrance Service for all Canadians. While it is the Legion that runs it, it is not something the Legion can freely alter, nor would want to. If you wish to read up on the protocols set forth, please see this manual.  

http://www.legion.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Ritual_Awards__Protocol_English_Oct_2016.pdf

As for your reference to it being ritual or remembrance? It is in essence both. It is extremely important for everyone to gather to remember first and foremost. However it's equally important to adhere to the ritual as to never allow it to be changed freely by anyone for their own means. Contrary to what some politicians, public, civic groups may think, this is not some show where you can push yourself to the head of the line to look important. There is attempted meddling, and this is not the time nor place for it. This ceremony protects the memory of the Fallen. You don't screw with it.


----------



## brihard

Wrangler said:
			
		

> The order of ceremony that is used by Legion's across Canada was developed jointly with DHH to serve as the Remembrance Service for all Canadians. While it is the Legion that runs it, it is not something the Legion can freely alter, nor would want to. If you wish to read up on the protocols set forth, please see this manual.
> 
> http://www.legion.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Ritual_Awards__Protocol_English_Oct_2016.pdf
> 
> As for your reference to it being ritual or remembrance? It is in essence both. It is extremely important for everyone to gather to remember first and foremost. However it's equally important to adhere to the ritual as to never allow it to be changed freely by anyone for their own means. Contrary to what some politicians, public, civic groups may think, this is not some show where you can push yourself to the head of the line to look important. There is attempted meddling, and this is not the time nor place for it. This ceremony protects the memory of the Fallen. You don't screw with it.



I think the point being made is that the Legion does not own remembrance, remembrance day, or remembrance day ceremonies. Yes, they run the ceremonies in many communities. Some communities though may have particular touches they may wish to add, alter, remove, or resequence as appropriate to what best serves that community.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Can we stop. The ranting and raving sounds just like the people being bitched about. 

I don't go to the service to listen to any of it. I zone out and remember my friends and family that answered the call and paid for it. I remember comrades, from 37 years of service, that have passed.

Remembrance Day is not about ceremony or laying a wreath for your organization instead of getting the lazy members to attend the gathering. It's about you and your thoughts and is not a day but 7/24s. Let the posers have their day puffing their chests and yelling commands creating the unique confuaion of colour parties that all have their own version of Branch drill. 

Well, that's  my  :2c:

Don't forget to stop arguing  for a couple of minutes on the day.


----------



## ModlrMike

So I watched the video this fellow put on Facebook. To me it sounded like he wanted to be a part of the official act of remembrance ceremony. If that's the case, then perhaps the Legion's response wasn't that far off base. That being said, they could have worked with him and come to a mutually agreeable solution.

Of course, we only have one side of the story here...


----------



## Edward Campbell

recceguy said:
			
		

> Can we stop. The ranting and raving sounds just like the people being bitched about.
> 
> I don't go to the service to listen to any of it. I zone out and remember my friends and family that answered the call and paid for it. I remember comrades, from 37 years of service, that have passed.
> 
> Remembrance Day is not about ceremony or laying a wreath for your organization instead of getting the lazy members to attend the gathering. It's about you and your thoughts and is not a day but 7/24s. Let the posers have their day puffing their chests and yelling commands creating the unique confuaion of colour parties that all have their own version of Branch drill.
> 
> Well, that's  my  :2c:
> 
> Don't forget to stop arguing  for a couple of minutes on the day.




I know I'm repeating myself, and I apologize in advance, it's an annual thing for me, but ...

The Legion's "ownership" of remembrance day is recent* and doesn't apply to me ... and, yes, thank you, I have a f'ing dog in this fight, which is more than I can say for most people in the RCL.

There is a danger in what the Legion does: the legion is an advocacy group, it advocates* for veterans*. But: _*Remembrance Day is NOT about veterans*_ ... it started as a chance to allow veterans to join with families and the sovereign to honour the war dead: and, in Canada, war widows were not part of the "Legion family" because their husbands were not veterans ~ not having made it back in order to be discharged.

The service is simple and consist ONLY of:

     A very brief formal "welcome" which probably includes the national anthem, and may include a reading of "In Flanders Fields."    

     The Act of Remembrance ~ a few lines from a poem (For the Fallen) by Laurence Binyon;

     Two minutes of silence, which may punctuated by two "calls:" the last post and the rouse, and/or by a piper playing a lament; and

     A solemn dismissal, which may include a reading of _*Ecclesiasticus*_ 44:7: "All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times," if it is not offensive to too many people.

I understand the Legion has "rules:" they are silly, artficial things, made to advance the Legion's advocacy work ... they do not apply to anyone who wants to_* remember*_ on Remembrance Day.

Everything else, even the wreath laying by the Sovereign and the Silver Cross Mother, is window dressing ... it is right and fitting that both should lay wreathes, and it is right and proper that others, in no particular order ~ everyone else in equal in relation to the dead, ought to do so, too, but it is a detail, not part of the core. Prayers are optional, ditto parades and, especially, marching veterans.

__
* Remembrance Day was started by King George V in 1919, the RCL was founded in 1925


----------



## mariomike

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> _*Remembrance Day is NOT about veterans*_



I agree. But, I wonder if everyone feels the same way?

Remembrance Day: National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged) 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/22329.200.html
9 pages.


Remembrance Day  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112809.0
OP: "happy veterans day to all our Canadian veterans!" November 11, 2013
4 pages.


----------



## Wrangler

We are discussing the ceremony and how it's run, I question what you perceive as the Legion using that day for advancing in what we believe in and I personally take offense to that. I have run this ceremony for the last 17 years and the day I was asked to coordinate this solemn day I accepted on one condition. This day is for the fallen, and the serving members before us now. It's a day to remember those who have sacrificed for our country. Not only the Fallen have sacrificed, but so many do every day, those now serving at home and abroad. I will not let the Legion, any Veteran's organization, the military or any government change, alter or detract from a very simple ceremony. If for some reason we have someone that wishes to speak, they may talk, but it's a full 20 mins before the service takes place. Nothing is supposed to detract from the ceremony at hand. You may have attended services in the past that were held incorrectly, I apologize for that. Just please don't lump all the work the Legion does into one pot. It is a highly respectful ceremony and I'm sorry you feel like there's too much window dressing.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I am sorry, but Edward is correct, Wrangler, you're not.  This day is for the fallen, period.  It's not for celebrating those of us who still or have served and survived.  This day is for is the man who's photo appears in my profile picture and all the others who fell.  

Although the RCL does do good works, and it's important I acknowledge the good they do, do such.  What really hacks me off is their bullying attitude in their defence of what they see as their turf.  The Poppy, for instance.  They're as aggressive and distasteful as the IOC are over anything that could remotely be the Olympic Rings.  I understand the RCL doesn't want anyone to disrespect the Poppy but their aggressiveness is really a big turn off.


----------



## Journeyman

Wrangler, you may not see it but perhaps you are reflective of the Legion stereotype that drives current and recently-retired troops away from joining -- the whole "my way or the highway" mentality, which is only made worse if there's the appearance that it's coming from someone who has not shared that serving military experience/ethos.

No response required; I've merely suggested some mirror-gazing.  I'll return to silent mode since I confirmed long ago that the Legion isn't for me.


ps - you may want to start considering an update of your inviolable Ritual manual;  your committees may wish to debate the use of "all thy sons command" in the National Anthem lyrics (page 3).


----------



## Halifax Tar

I thought Legion Remembrance Day ceremonies were for civilians to impress other civilians with the medals they wear on the right hand side of their sports coat. 

op:


----------



## Edward Campbell

Wrangler said:
			
		

> We are discussing the ceremony and how it's run, I question what you perceive as the Legion using that day for advancing in what we believe in and _I personally take offense_ to that. I have run this ceremony for the last 17 years and the day I was asked to coordinate this solemn day I accepted on one condition. This day is for the fallen, and the serving members before us now. It's a day to remember those who have sacrificed for our country. Not only the Fallen have sacrificed, but so many do every day, those now serving at home and abroad. I will not let the Legion, any Veteran's organization, the military or any government change, alter or detract from a very simple ceremony. If for some reason we have someone that wishes to speak, they may talk, but it's a full 20 mins before the service takes place. Nothing is supposed to detract from the ceremony at hand. You may have attended services in the past that were held incorrectly, I apologize for that. Just please don't lump all the work the Legion does into one pot. It is a highly respectful ceremony and I'm sorry you feel like there's too much window dressing.




That's fine, it's your prerogative, and that's why I apologized, in advance, for my annual rant; but I stand by every word and punctuation mark. The Legion, which appears to include you, gets in the way of my _*remembrance*_ and, feeling the occasional need for a memorial to those who have no known grave, I choose to do _my_ ceremony, in _my_ way (proper) way ~ quietly, privately, unobtrusively, despite what the RCL and a horde of political lackeys are doing around me.


----------



## mariomike

Something I have been doing these last few years is remembering this map when I walk through my neighborhood,

Grief’s geography: Three separate maps show the war dead of two World Wars and Korea.
http://globalnews.ca/news/932833/griefs-geography-mapping-torontonians-killed-three-wars/

I still have the telegram they handed my grandparents.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> That's fine, it's your prerogative, and that's why I apologized, in advance, for my annual rant; but I stand by every word and punctuation mark. The Legion, which appears to include you, gets in the way of my _*remembrance*_ and, feeling the occasional need for a memorial to those who have no known grave, I choose to do _my_ ceremony, in _my_ way (proper) way ~ quietly, privately, unobtrusively, despite what the RCL and a horde of political lackeys are doing around me.




Hear hear. Rememberance Day for me is to remember, as I do every waking hour of each day, those who I last saw as a body bag on an angel flight, due to op tempo I couldn't go back for ramp ceremonies etc... That is it. I don't care about free meals, civvies buying me drinks in the pub, I don't go to the legion afterward for sandwiches and darts, hell, I don't even wear my medals to the ceremony as I don't want attention brought to myself. I made it home. That day is for those who never will.


----------



## George Wallace

Can we put this to Rest with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1UhEoQUvA0


and move on.


----------



## kratz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Can we put this to Rest with this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1UhEoQUvA0
> 
> 
> and move on.



Well played...Really! She played it very well. BZ.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Brihard]
I think the point being made is that the Legion does not own remembrance, remembrance day, or remembrance day ceremonies.
[/quote]

[quote author=E.R. Campbell]
The Legion's "ownership" of remembrance day is recent* and doesn't apply to me [/quote]

This is exactly the issue for me. It feels like the Legion attempts to own Remembrance day and Remembrance day ceremonies. They already own the Poppy, or at least the commonly used version in Canada.

It feels too commercialized now. The last few ceremonies I've been at it seemed like every single business in the city had their named called out for a wreath.  Instead of hearing how walmart donated a $45 wreath I'd rather listen to an old vet tell some stories.

This morning I was at a convenience store and I noticed the poppy box. "Poppies and bracelets, minimum donation $2.00"  (those little live free style rubber bracelets).  No thanks.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Due to my work, I have found myself in far flung areas of Canada on Remembrance Day.  The Petawawa legion does a decent job of it, if a bit long winded.  Last year we were coerced into attending the ceremony on the Okanagan Indian Band reserve in Vernon, that was different, and quite nice until it became political.  The local Legion here (Westlock, AB) does an okay job of it, other than usually fucking up the marching on and off of The Colours.  One thing they do here that grinds my gears is they ask all the vets to stand up so everyone can give them a round of applause.  I find this nauseating, not my day, my day to member guys who'll never again get to stand in a hall with their loved ones.  I like to sneak in, stand in the back of the hall, so I can shed a tear if I need to, then leave.  Yes, I wear my medals and headdress, and yes I go to the legion hall after, to have a drink for those who went before.


----------



## medicineman

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> This morning I was at a convenience store and I noticed the poppy box. "Poppies and bracelets, minimum donation $2.00"  (those little live free style rubber bracelets).  No thanks.



Nice...now we have a minimum "donation" for something many people are required to wear on their uniforms, regardless of service...and usually fall off first car ride into work.

MM


----------



## kratz

I make my yearly donation, but if my poppy falls off I obstinately refuse to donate again, even as I pick-up a new poppy. Despite glares, evil eyes and disapproving frowns. They don't know I've already donated...many times in my life.


----------



## ModlrMike

To be charitable, I think one of the issues may be that the US has effectively two days and we are seeing some spillover here. They have Memorial Day (May 30ish) and Veterans Day (Nov 11). With Veterans' Day and Remembrance Day falling on the same date, it is easy to see how the two might get comingled.

All that to say that I agree with Edward.


----------



## Lightguns

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> This is exactly the issue for me. It feels like the Legion attempts to own Remembrance day and Remembrance day ceremonies. They already own the Poppy, or at least the commonly used version in Canada.
> 
> It feels too commercialized now. The last few ceremonies I've been at it seemed like every single business in the city had their named called out for a wreath.  Instead of hearing how walmart donated a $45 wreath I'd rather listen to an old vet tell some stories.
> 
> This morning I was at a convenience store and I noticed the poppy box. "Poppies and bracelets, minimum donation $2.00"  (those little live free style rubber bracelets).  No thanks.



The legion I attend refuses to do that.  They do call out every community veteran who has passed including their US veterans (WW2, Vietnam).  They are a small legion and mostly dying.  The military contingent does their colours as there is only 1 actual veteran fit enough to leave a wheel chair.


----------



## Pusser

medicineman said:
			
		

> Nice...now we have a minimum "donation" for something many people are required to wear on their uniforms, regardless of service...and usually fall off first car ride into work.
> 
> MM



I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php

I ordered some of these pins myself and they work great.  The sad part is that the Legion has known about the problem with the straight pin for years, yet has steadfastly refused to do anything about it.  In some cases, there have even been admissions that they like people to lose their poppies because they believe it encourages them to donate again.

The Legion has apparently tried to censure the guy doing this, which is ironic because he's a Legion member!


----------



## medicineman

Pusser said:
			
		

> I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php
> 
> I ordered some of these pins myself and they work great.  The sad part is that the Legion has known about the problem with the straight pin for years, yet has steadfastly refused to do anything about it.  In some cases, there have even been admissions that they like people to lose their poppies because they believe it encourages them to donate again.
> 
> The Legion has apparently tried to censure the guy doing this, which is ironic because he's a Legion member!



I just use a pencil eraser...and usually have a few spares lying around in the car or my locker at work.  I'm frankly not surprised that the Legion would get all over someone for that...surprised that they haven't tried suing those of us with poppy memorial tattoos :.

MM


----------



## Jed

I guess I am just a Rebel.  I'm just happy people donate to the Poppy fund. I could care less if someone uses their initiative to pin it how and where they want on their dress.

This dress reg business just pisses me off. I had enough of that as a full time soldier. I will continue to exercise my prerogative to put a Canada pin in the poppy and put it on my hat when I want too.

And I will continue to wear whatever head dress the military issued me instead of the RCL beret as long as I want to as well.

 Go ahead RCL Chain of Command and give me a chit or boot me out for these serious dress reg infractions.


----------



## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm frankly not surprised that the Legion would get all over someone for that...surprised that they haven't tried suing those of us with poppy memorial tattoos :.



Regarding the Legion and poppy tattoos, I saw this from British Columbia,

"Remembrance Day Poppy Drives
In 2011 Urge Tattoos held the first ever Canadian Remembrance Day Poppy Drive in Support of the Canadian Armed Forces by way of the Canadian Legion. Every Remembrance Day since 2011 Urge and our outstanding artists, as well as amazing artists from a number of other great shops around Victoria, have donated their time and materials to this very worthy cause — all funds raised from the tattooing of poppies on Remembrance Day are donated to the Royal Canadian Legion. We’re distinctly proud of the hundreds of hours we’ve put in, and the thousands of dollars we’ve raised in support of our past and present service members as well as their families. Often imitated but never duplicated; ensure your donation is going to the cause. We proudly display letters of recognition from the Legion on our walls."
http://www.urgetattoos.com/supporting-our-community/

I've never had a tattoo, but there are some popular poppy memorial designs to chose from,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22remembrance+day%22+tattoo&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ3f_Jg4jQAhWi64MKHYHABkYQ_AUICCgB&biw=1536&bih=770


----------



## the 48th regulator

Pusser said:
			
		

> I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php
> 
> I ordered some of these pins myself and they work great.  The sad part is that the Legion has known about the problem with the straight pin for years, yet has steadfastly refused to do anything about it.  In some cases, there have even been admissions that they like people to lose their poppies because they believe it encourages them to donate again.
> 
> The Legion has apparently tried to censure the guy doing this, which is ironic because he's a Legion member!




A Brilliant idea,andI have purchased some too.

I also have orderd some of these velcro patches;

http://urbantactical.com/urban-tactical-velcro-poppy-patch.html


----------



## medicineman

I actually saw those patches in the store when I was in a couple weeks ago...should have thought to grab a couple.

MM


----------



## Jarnhamar

www.urbantactical set off my Antimalware filter.


> Stop! This website is not safe
> This website contains malware that may harm your computer
> 
> This website contains elements classified as malware: software that can harm your computer or operate without your consent. Visiting a site that contains malware can infect your computer.


----------



## ModlrMike

Pusser said:
			
		

> I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php
> 
> I ordered some of these pins myself and they work great.  The sad part is that the Legion has known about the problem with the straight pin for years, yet has steadfastly refused to do anything about it.  In some cases, there have even been admissions that they like people to lose their poppies because they believe it encourages them to donate again.
> 
> The Legion has apparently tried to censure the guy doing this, which is ironic because he's a Legion member!



Easier yet, glue the black felt center to a thumb tack and use a standard clasp to secure it to your clothing. I've been doing this for years on my dress uniform, because one invariably loses poppy between the house and the parade.

And yes, I still donate to the poppy fund every year.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I bought these Poppy pins last year, using them this year and very satisfied.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> www.urbantactical set off my Antimalware filter.



And....

Didn't hurt mine.

Then again, I don't have an adult Filter.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another option:  run the pin through the poppy itself to help keep it on - see attached.


----------



## McG

Pusser said:
			
		

> I like what this guy is doing: http://poppypins.com/Home_Page.php


I have heard some in the military lump those in with maple leaf or Canadian flag pins as a prohibited way of attaching the poppy to a Canadian uniform.
I know of units that have been told they are not allowed to use that pin to keep poppies from getting lost.


----------



## jollyjacktar

One of the retired Chiefs here spotted mine this morning.  Nothing was said by those in uniform.  Hell, even the Coxswain didn't notice or remark on it when I was talking to him on Monday.


----------



## newwifey

We picked up these for our poppies this year.


----------



## brihard

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Hampton, NB Legion seems to have created a social media storm.  https://www.facebook.com/jamie.keating.92
> 
> Mr Keating attempted to be part of service to honour 9 fallen friends from Afghanistan and was told the laying ceremony was for dignities only.  His rant video is making the rounds of CFB Gagetown FB users last night and this morning.



Some follow up on this. Jamie Keating put up a new video today. Among other things, looks liek the president of that branch has been forced or is being forced to step down by higher, and there has been tremendous outreach to him by senior levels of the Legion. He seems pretty satisfied at the otherwhelmingly positive response to one idiot's stupid actions. Good to see.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

MCG said:
			
		

> I have heard some in the military lump those in with maple leaf or Canadian flag pins as a prohibited way of attaching the poppy to a Canadian uniform.
> I know of units that have been told they are not allowed to use that pin to keep poppies from getting lost.



Heyzeus H Chrisco..........there is being anal and then there is this. Maybe I was a terrible SNCO but to me, a prohibition was for something that would risk lives...and securing your poppy in the run up to remembrance day didn't exactly fit that category. As long as troops had one I was cool with it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

And the dumb dumb factor continues.

This article folks, exemplifies the stupidity that runs rampant within the Legion. This is why Veterans do not join.  Assinine statements about something practical. I have purchased them in the past, and ordred ten more for my family and friends!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/remembrance-day-poppy-pin-that-won-t-fall-off-1.3311799

Remembrance Day poppy pin that won't fall off too commercial: legion HQ

The head office of the Royal Canadian Legion says the sale of a little black pin designed to keep you from losing yet another poppy is commercializing Remembrance Day.

"People are being asked to pay $3 for a centre pin which is not really part of the spirit of the campaign. It's a commercial venture," said Bill Maxwell, senior program officer with the Royal Canadian Legion Dominion Command in Ottawa.

The pin is a near replica of the black felt centre of the legion's traditional poppy — minus the sharp, straight pin. Instead, the poppy centre substitute is a lapel pin with a flat back that doesn't poke and stays put.

The pins are manufactured and sold privately online for $3 to $5 apiece, but at least four Calgary branches are also selling them alongside their Remembrance Day poppy campaigns.
Poppy pin Joan Lepidus

Joan Lepidus, who is on the executive of the No. 1 Legion in Calgary, has replaced her straight pin for a lapel pin poppy centre. (Danielle Nerman/CBC)

"There's a substantial discount that I give to the legions so that they can, you know, make some profit. And what they do with that — that's their business. They can put it into their general funds or they can put it into the poppy fund," said Doug Michetti, the Calgary man behind the poppy pin centres.

Michetti, a longtime legion member and volunteer, says branches sell his pins to the public for $3 each. He says he charges them "less than half that" for each pin and it costs him a dollar to make a pin. He keeps any remaining profit, but declined to provide more details.

"The legions do not sell them with the poppy. You contribute to the poppy fund and you take a poppy and if you want a pin, you buy that separately."

Designed for safety

Michetti came up with the idea for his poppy pin centres four years ago while volunteering for local branch No. 284 at the Calgary airport.

Two young girls from the U.S. approached him, curious about the red plastic flower brooches on his table. After a brief lesson in Canadian history, Michetti gave each of them a poppy pin.
Poppy pin on jacket

Along with volunteering for the Poppy Campaign, Lepidus also sells poppy pin centres for $3 a piece for the No. 1 Legion in Calgary. (Danielle Nerman/CBC)

"Then, their mother came along and she looked at the pin and the poppy and said, 'I'm sorry, but girls, you're going to have to give those back.' She was afraid of the pin."

That prompted Michetti to devise a safer backing. Excited by his eureka moment, he immediately rang up head office to inquire about joining forces.

Legion brass told Michetti it was good idea, but they were not interested.

"So I thought, well, it leaves me to do it. So I did it."

Poppy pin centres sell like gangbusters

On Monday, two Royal Canadian Legion branches in Calgary — No. 154 (Ogden) and No. 264 (Kensington) — had sold out of Michetti's pins.

"I've had no luck so far, " said Lise Marier, who has been searching the city for a dozen poppy pin centres for her family and friends.

In downtown Calgary, a volunteer with the No.1 branch sold 200 in three hours after the word got out on Facebook.

Social media has really ramped up the sale of the poppy centre pins.

"I ran out," said Joan Lepidus, who runs a Poppy Campaign table inside the Harry Hayes Service Canada building. "I really think they're great and everybody that comes to buy them — they come back two or three times."

Michetti says he has sold about 40,000 of his pins to legions and individuals across Canada and the U.S. since he launched his website.

Pins 'deface' poppy symbol

"You know it is defacing our poppy, and our policy is such that the poppy should not be defaced," said Maxwell, who also speaks for the Royal Canadian Legion's poppy and remembrance committee in Ottawa.

His stance is in line with what's written on page 42 of the Legion's Poppy Manual — that the poppy is a 'sacred symbol of remembrance' and no other pin (except the pointy one that it comes with) should be used to attach it to your clothing.

    8 ways to pin your Remembrance Day poppy

Maxwell said legionnaires should wear their poppies in the traditional fashion, but recognizes that the Royal Canadian Legion can't control the will of the Canadian public.

"It's a personal choice. And it's better to wear a poppy than no poppy at all," he said.

Dominion Command has directed branches across Canada not to sell the poppy pin centre substitutes.

Maxwell adds that if people are worried about poking themselves with the poppy pin, many legion branches supply "poppy savers," or plastic ends, to put on the pointy end of the pin.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I bought a few poppy pins off someone online. I found it interesting that he said he got a bunch of  them from an MFRC  after they were asked by the Legion to stop selling the pins  :



On a different note about the legion I can post the picture if anyone cares but I came across a post about how the Legion charges a $100 fee per formal complaint. It sounds like IF the complaint is found to be legitimate then the member is reimbursed the money?  Still, pretty clever way to curb pesky complaints.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> On a different note about the legion I can post the picture if anyone cares but I came across a post about how the Legion charges a $100 fee per formal complaint. It sounds like IF the complaint is found to be legitimate then the member is reimbursed the money?  Still, pretty clever way to curb pesky complaints.



If the complaint is anything BUT total bullshit it gets refunded. Complaint doesn't need to ultimately be supported, just not be blatantly frivolous. Exactly as you say- a filter for vexatious complaints.

And yeah, I bought a few pins off him too.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> If the complaint is anything BUT total bullshit it gets refunded. Complaint doesn't need to ultimately be supported, just not be blatantly frivolous. Exactly as you say- a filter for vexatious complaints.


I guess it can work both ways. Cut down on what must be a number of BS complaints but it can also probably dissuade someone from making a legitimate complaint both if they feel they won't be treated fair OR if they don't have the money. I read somewhere the average Canadian household is $200 away from financial hardship (can't think of the right term). Also I assume a lot of Legion members are possibly on fixed incomes so a $100 gamble could be a big deal.



> And yeah, I bought a few pins off him too.


I probably owe you a beer in a round about way for that  ;D


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I guess it can work both ways. Cut down on what must be a number of BS complaints but it can also probably dissuade someone from making a legitimate complaint both if they feel they won't be treated fair OR if they don't have the money. I read somewhere the average Canadian household is $200 away from financial hardship (can't think of the right term). Also I assume a lot of Legion members are possibly on fixed incomes so a $100 gamble could be a big deal.



Yes. It is still a problematic barrier to transparency and accountability and I know a few people are looking at potential ways to address this matter through a formal resolution. There needs to be a way to filter frivolous or vexatious complaints, but at the same time, legitimate grievances need a mechanism for airing.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

On a different, non-poppy related note.....Perhaps they're getting the hint? Share with the usual caveats:
http://www.legion.ca/article/get-the-grump-out-of-the-legion/



> *Get the Grump Out of the Legion!*
> _Right across the organization, Branches and Commands receive complaints from the public and even our members about their experiences walking into a Branch. At some Branches, people are met with a certain ‘grumpiness’ that is not acceptable. It’s time to address this situation, and quite frankly it must be addressed now and with urgency. It’s time to get the grump out of the Legion!
> 
> B.C/Yukon Command sent out the following (adapted) message to their Branches, and Dominion Command whole-heartedly agrees with this message. It’s a message that must be shared across the organization, and we hope every Branch shares this message with their members._
> 
> Every effort is being made at the Dominion, Provincial, Zone and Branch levels to recruit and retain Legion members. The media loves sounding the death knell for our organization, and we must fight it by working even harder at our membership numbers. We know many Branches have focused on this, ensuring their Branches stay welcoming, inclusive and relevant… and these Branches see growth because of this.
> 
> What we continue to struggle with is the reception people get at some of our Branches. We hear of experiences from across Canada that makes us cringe…
> 
> -An Ordinary member (in his forties) went for dinner at a Branch in a town where he was working temporarily. Upon entering, the entire place turned and stared at him, and not one person greeted him. He felt too awkward to stay, so he left.
> 
> -Another person attempted to join a Branch, and asked if he could be an Ordinary member as a Paramedic. He got a flat “No” and no one took the time to explain or offer information on any other category of membership. He left.
> 
> -A group of people belonging to a local softball club went to their Legion Branch after a game. Rather than taking what could have been a great opportunity for the Branch to welcome the team, tell them about the Legion and let them know about membership, a group of ‘regulars’ (members that occupy the same table each night) shouted at the team to remove their baseball caps the moment they walked in the door. The team turned around and left.
> 
> This kind of behaviour is creating a perception across the organization that is killing our efforts in welcoming potential new members. We must address this final and critical step of recruitment. For this organization to attract new members we must all, even the folks at “that table” in your Branch, be less grumpy. In fact, why are we not more like hosts?
> 
> Put bluntly, the Legion cannot survive on its current membership alone; to continue our mission of Remembrance, we must embrace those that walk through our doors, regardless of background, age, or profession. It’s time to get the grump out of the Legion!
> 
> Let’s start to get the word out about being a good host. Here are 6 ideas to assist your Branch in ways to welcome new or visiting people:
> 
> 1.  Agree that if there is any member of the Branch Executive in the Branch, that it is set up that that they watch for people who look out of place and uncomfortable, and greet them.
> 
> 2. Put up a small dry erase board at the entrance that says: New to our Branch? We want to welcome you! The greeter of the day is: (name of volunteer) . Please ask for me.
> 
> 3. Talk to the bartenders and servers to approach and welcome people when times are quiet. We hear stories of people being completely ignored by bar staff in some Branches. Not ok. Sometimes they are the first people that a new person would approach and they should be personable.
> 
> 4. Understand that most people don’t really know how things work in our Branches or what activities are available in our locations. If we welcome our guests a bit better and make them feel comfortable with the Branch events, then it won’t be so intimidating to come in the next time – perhaps with another guest.
> 
> 5. Having trouble getting a new member to come for their initiation ceremony? It should be done at a general meeting, but it doesn’t have to be. Invite them to an event, or even do it with a couple of Executives hosting their visit. Have an Executive member accompanying the new member at the meeting at which they are to be initiated and explain the initiation process in advance of the event – this could make a new WelcomeHandshakemember more comfortable; anything that forms the relationship helps.
> 
> 6. Why not have some pin-on buttons made and ask some of your outgoing and pleasant members to wear a “host of the day” pin and have them welcome people? These are easy things that friendly people do well. Above all, deal firmly with the grouches and those members who “welcome” guests by yelling “remove your hat” – they are hurting your Branch.
> 
> We know that some Branches are doing an extraordinary job of being friendly and welcoming from the minute a guest opens the front door. So if you are doing it right and having success, or have good ideas to welcome your visitors, please share them with Dominion Command so we can start conversations across the organization.
> 
> Let’s show Canada just how friendly the Legion can be!



Some of their initiatives are a little... corny. However, it is nice to see that at least Dominion Command is addressing the hostility that poisons the well.


----------



## donaldk

Jewel144 said:
			
		

> We picked up these for our poppies this year.



Thanks, Saw the listing on Ebay (which has no address) and was hoping there was a walk-in location as I am on TD to ESQ next week.  Not far from the Wardroom.


----------



## Pusser

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Pins 'deface' poppy symbol
> 
> "You know it is defacing our poppy, and our policy is such that the poppy should not be defaced," said Maxwell, who also speaks for the Royal Canadian Legion's poppy and remembrance committee in Ottawa.
> 
> His stance is in line with what's written on page 42 of the Legion's Poppy Manual — that the poppy is a *'sacred symbol of remembrance' *and no other pin (except the pointy one that it comes with) should be used to attach it to your clothing.
> 
> 
> Maxwell said legionnaires should wear their poppies in the traditional fashion, but recognizes that the Royal Canadian Legion can't control the will of the Canadian public.
> 
> "It's a personal choice. And it's better to wear a poppy than no poppy at all," he said.
> 
> Dominion Command has directed branches across Canada not to sell the poppy pin centre substitutes.
> 
> Maxwell adds that if people are worried about poking themselves with the poppy pin, many legion branches supply "poppy savers," or plastic ends, to put on the pointy end of the pin.[/color]



Yes, the poppy is a sacred *symbol* of remembrance.  A symbol can be represented in many ways.  The piece of plastic with a straight pin itself is not sacred.  Furthermore, how is a straight pin that folks have been complaining about for years any more "sacred" than another pin that looks the same, functions better and is safer?  How do the Legion's "poppy savers" preserve "sacredness" any more than these poppy pin centres?

The Legion has to pull its collective head out of its ass and realize that someone has come up with a better idea.  instead of fighting it, perhaps they should embrace it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Some of their initiatives are a little... corny.


That makes me feel like an old fart - many of the "if you see someone who's looking like their new or unfamiliar with the place, go up to them and chat 'em up" tips I learned in the junior ranks and Sgt/WO messes when I was a member. 

Small steps, but certainly in the right direction.


----------



## The Bread Guy

As with any media story, there's likely more to it than we see here, but here's another example of the periphery being underwhelmed with the centre ...


> A year-and-a-half long dispute over roughly $300 has led to a rural Nova Scotia legion being stripped of its certification following a bitter clash with provincial leadership in Halifax.
> 
> Members of Clare Branch #52 in Saulnierville dug in their heels and didn't comply with a bylaw requiring the chapter to send a small portion of money raised through its annual poppy campaign to the Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command of the Royal Canadian Legion.
> 
> After Clare didn't pay for the second time, the Royal Canadian Legion withdrew the branch's charter in November. But that doesn't seem to bother the branch's former president.
> 
> "They wanted it, they got it, they can keep it," said Russell Comeau, who also served as Clare's local service officer.
> 
> He said members didn't feel the command supported or provided any services for their area.
> 
> "Nothing, nothing whatsoever. They'd just say send us money," he said ...


----------



## Halifax Tar

Very pointed article. 

http://espritdecorps.ca/perspectives-1/calling-out-the-great-veteran-pretender


----------



## The Bread Guy

Not an option in all cases, maybe, but must be in at least _some_ - shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_ ...


> *Poppies? For legions, the big money’s in real estate*
> _By leveraging the land it sits on, a Calgary branch got a chic new hall with a trendy eatery and luxury condo tower on-site. Other cash-strapped legions may soon follow suit._
> Jason Markusoff, macleans.ca, September 6, 2017
> 
> My knife cuts cleanly through the pork schnitzel, and it’s not too greasy, resting in a splash of stout-based jus. The herb spätzle strikes the right balance between crispy and chewy, while the arugula-and-fennel salad’s natural spice is softened by a lemon vinaigrette. As the evening goes on, I trip through the range of local microbrews on offer, from the XPA to Red Rage to the lemon-berry helles.
> 
> The servers are young and black-clad. The décor is black and rustic browns, washed in sunlight on three sides by eight-metre, floor-to-ceiling windows. The light fixtures are those hipster Edison bulbs. I am at Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 264.
> 
> It’s likely the most audacious turnaround venture in a country full of legion branches fending off the triple scourge of dwindling memberhip, crumbling halls and slowly fading relevancy. Calgary’s six-decades-old No. 264 hall, a windowless sprawl of beige bricks with a sprawlier parking lot in the Kensington district, is fenced off, destined to become a developer’s condo tower. Next door, as part of a land swap meant to take the branch from struggling to self-sustaining, that developer built a new legion-owned building with a chic public restaurant (dubbed “1918 Tap & Table”), a member’s lounge above it and two top levels with 15,000 square feet of office space that the legion plans to lease for cash flow—a resource whose scarcity in recent years has forced branches throughout Canada to shutter.
> 
> “It was a three-stream approach for revenue, which makes the entire operation viable,” says branch treasurer Mark Barham. The v-word is one that in recent years too few legion leaders have been able to utter. Nor have they been able to predict, as Barham does, that those revenue streams may yield $1 million in net annual income—money the Calgary branch treasurer says could be reinvested into local community projects for veterans and others.
> 
> Barham, a retired Tim Hortons franchisee with a salesman’s flair says he was first brought into 264’s leadership as a trustee, tasked with turning it around or shutting it. He believes most fellow legions are also sitting on their survival strategy: the prime land, usually downtown, upon which their leaky and underutilized buildings sit. Unlocking that value, Barham says, is the path forward for Royal Canadian Legions.
> 
> The alternative is gradual decline. Korean War and Second World War veterans are now in their 80s and 90s, while Afghanistan veterans have returned to a social network their combat predecessors never had: Facebook. The legion started this century boasting nearly 500,000 members at 1,600 local branches nationally; it now has just 275,000 members and 1,407 branches. Some national and provincial leaders now actively encourage troubled branches to amalgamate with healthier ones, and sell their buildings. Other branches are finding smaller or more affordable spaces. A handful are pairing with developers to build halls on a tower’s ground floor, and condos or seniors apartments above, including Cobourg and Port Dalhousie in Ontario, as well as Port Moody, B.C., whose condo/legion project sits near a Skytrain hub.
> 
> Legions across the country, many in squat 1950s or ‘60s brick buildings with insides that have hardly changed, are deciding how to cope with their infrastructure problems, says Brad White, national executive director. “They say: Do we really need a great, big building like that, when we had a population of maybe 1,000 veterans or members before, but we’re now at 200 or 100?” he says.
> 
> Other branches call No. 264 every week for advice about land sales and development (some have had development plans or sales fall through, or get vetoed by legion members; the Calgary branch was on its third developer before things clicked). Many are surviving just fine and don’t need an asset liquidation, while others sit on less valuable land, in towns with weaker real estate markets–certainly not the $10 million in Calgary land value that No. 264 occupied. In the future, legion branch health may be divided among property haves and have-nots.
> 
> In the mountain town of Canmore, Alta., a proposed development would give the branch a facility that’s modern, more reasonably sized than its current 10,000 square feet, and some sales income. “They’ll have a legion, plus investments that should take care of them for the rest of their days,” says branch president Darrel Jones.
> 
> At No. 264, change is bringing new members with its new look and sleek public restaurant. The old crowd doesn’t show up there; but it doesn’t show up that much to the member’s lounge upstairs, either. Members didn’t bring over the pool table or shuffleboard from the old hall, and have basically the same design as the modern eatery downstairs–and the same bill of fare, with a burger twice the price it used to be, grilled spring salmon instead of fish and chips, and pea-and-barley risotto on the menu where the baked macaroni with beef used to be. The place is too new to reek of fried food, and it likely never will.
> 
> “It doesn’t feel like a legion to me at all,” says a former RCAF pilot in his 80s, who doesn’t want his name used. Many of his fellow veterans now drink at other branches. His Thursday evening beer mate, a legion youngster in his mid-60s, has long liked No. 264 as a quiet place to drink and hear literal war stories. His wife would never accompany him to the old hall, he says; but this newfangled legion, sure.
> 
> Bill Cox, Branch 264’s president, acknowledges he’s lost longtime members who prefer the traditional atmosphere. But not as many as he’s lost to old age.
> 
> “When you move from one town to another, you lose friends, lose memories,” he says. “But you move to a new one you get a chance to rebuild that, to make new ones.”


----------



## goldwing

From The Innisfail Province newspaper in Alberta, dated Sept 12, 2017:

http://www.innisfailprovince.ca/article/Out-of-order-out-of-sync-20170912

"About one month ago while proceeding past the new town hall I noticed that the three flags were out of order, out of sync.
As the sergeant-at-arms for the Alberta NWT Command of the Royal Canadian Legion it is part of my job to know how all flags should be placed in order.

Feeling I was doing my job in helping my town, I went inside and informed an individual as to how the flags should be placed. I was informed by the individual that new flagpoles would be arriving within days and that flags would be placed properly on the new poles.
The new poles arrived, were erected, and the flags hoisted but they were still in the wrong order. If the poles are indeed in the right order, the flagpole with the Canadian flag should be the tallest to show precedence, according to legion protocol.
I again informed the town that they were out of order and was assured that the situation would be rectified.
Well, nearly three weeks have now passed and the flags are still out of order, out of sync.

Shame on you Town of Innisfail, shame on you.

I will gladly rectify the situation myself. Simply call the local legion and ask for Jim."

Editor’s note: Federal Department of Canadian Heritage officials told the Province when only three flags are displayed the national flag of Canada should be at the centre, with the second-ranking flag, in this case the flag of Alberta, on the left to an observer facing the display and the other, the municipal flag of Innisfail, on the right. They said there is no protocol requirement for the flagpole with the Canadian flag to be the tallest.

I am an ordinary member of the RCL (veteran) and this infuriates me and has made the Legion look bad.  Jim has overstepped his role.  He has no right to tell the Town of Innisfail how they are supposed to have their flags in order, especially in the authoritarian way that he has.  The editor's note stating that the Federal Department of Canadian Heritage is correct.  

In fact, if you consult the RCL Rituals, Awards and Protocol Manual, it states:

     1.  "Flags flown together should be approximately the  same size and flown from separate pikes/flagpoles at the same height";
     2.  "When two or more than three flags are flown together, the Canadian Flag shall be on the left, as seen by spectators in front of 
          the flags, with the other flags flown in order of precedence from left to right"; and
     3.  "When three flags are flown or displayed together, the Canadian Flag shall occupy the central position with the next ranking 
          flag to the left and the third ranking flag to the right, as seen by spectators in front of the flags."  

Jim is WRONG!

Jim needs to do a retraction letter apologizing for his actions.  There should be some form of punishment from the RCL also.

Your thoughts...


----------



## mariomike

I don't know what the flag protocol is for the Town of Innisfail.

But, this is the flag protocol in the City of Toronto,

Q.  When displaying the city flag with provincial and federal flags, what order should they be in?

A.  From the perspective of the audience facing the flags, the Canadian flag should be placed in the centre, the provincial flag on the left, and the city flag on the right.

If there are only two flags, the Canadian and the City flag, then from the perspective of the audience facing the flags, the Canadian flag should be on the left and the City flag on the right.
https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=4e0081d025945410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&vgnextchannel=7bbdb3066f9e1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

See also,

Sharing the same base – three flags

When only three flags are displayed, the National Flag of Canada should be at the centre. To an observer facing the display, the second-ranking flag is placed to the left of centre, and the other to the right.

A common combination of flags is the National Flag of Canada with a provincial or territorial flag, and a municipal flag or an organization’s banner. In this case, the National Flag should be in the centre with the provincial/territorial flag to the left and the municipal flag/organization’s banner to the right (to an observer facing the display).
https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/flag-canada-etiquette/flying-rules.html#a22


----------



## goldwing

I have updated my original post to include "When two or more than three flags are flown together, the Canadian Flag shall be on the left, as seen by spectators in front of the flags, with the other flags flown in order of precedence from left to right."


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Well, there is no two way about it: Jim is an idiot!

Only an idiot would even begin to believe that the internal rules of a private organization, such as the Legion, should apply to everybody else on the planet, and then, pretend to put them in their place without even checking what rules apply to these other people.

It is unfortunate that there is a certain element of this view in many members of the R.C.L. (such as Legion members pretending to have the power to tell/order people around on how and when to wear their damn poppies, even after we bought them and therefore, they belong to us (I am not talking about breach of the copyright, here).

Moreover, regardless of Legion protocol, when flags are employed in Canada, I would tend to use whatever protocol is propounded by Heritage Canada over anybody else's proposed protocol.


----------



## Journeyman

Gee, another 'Legion / douchebag' story.   :boring:    (Don't we have a Legion-bashing thread already running?  It's probably near a "veteran-themed bike club run by dictators" thread)


[I don't think this fits as either "Military Affairs" or "News"    ymmv  ]


----------



## mariomike

Journeyman said:
			
		

> (Don't we have a Legion-bashing thread already running?



Topic merged.


----------



## goldwing

To all of you, this was not meant to be a RCL bashing post.  The Legion is a great organization.  This post was to show that there are some within the Legion that want to run it their own way, stating that they are running it within Legion protocol, but are running it the way they want to run it, in their own opinion.  With my original post, it was intended to raise awareness of cases like this and get opinion from others on it.  Ultimately, I wanted to highlight this case, as there are many other cases like this in other Legions across Canada, and encourage any members/veterans to confront anyone that uses opinion over fact (as stated in any Legion manual) and explain to them that what they are doing is wrong and show them the correct protocol as stated in the Legion manuals.  These Legion manuals have 90 years of blood, sweat and tears in them.  If we do not carry out proper protocol, we might as well close the Legion doors.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Posted before ?

Why today’s veterans avoid the Royal Canadian Legion

Most members of today’s Legion have never spent a day in military uniform

https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-todays-veterans-avoid-the-royal-canadian-legion/


----------



## Journeyman

No Hel Like Tac Hel said:
			
		

> The Legion is a great organization.


 The consensus of the 24 pages preceding your post is one of strong disagreement.



> If we do not carry out proper protocol, we might as well close the Legion doors.


...and virtually none of the disagreement about the Legion's "greatness" is due to flag protocol.



If being a Legion member works for you though, enjoy.     [not sarcasm]


----------



## dapaterson

The BC/Yukon Command president suspended eight executives following a harassment investigation (per BC's WorkSafe regulations).  So Dominion Command quashed the suspensions, removed him from office, and replaced him with one of the people he had suspended.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/legion-suspends-entire-b-c-executive-after-whistleblower-reveals-harassment-case-1.3609109


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Posted before ?
> 
> Why today’s veterans avoid the Royal Canadian Legion
> 
> Most members of today’s Legion have never spent a day in military uniform
> 
> https://nowtoronto.com/news/why-todays-veterans-avoid-the-royal-canadian-legion/



Considering 10%of the members do 90% of the work in any voluntary organizations, I wonder if those military/ex-military types are going to be the majority of that 10%?


----------



## Journeyman

> *Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates if RCMP are eligible for same plates *
> 
> The B.C. government is in the midst of public consultation to decide whether retired RCMP officers should also be eligible to receive the special plate.
> 
> ….members of the B.C. Veterans Commemorative Association (BCVCA), met with Attorney General David Eby on Monday to say the RCMP should not be eligible for the special plates. The BCVCA are currently involved with reviewing the applications and have approved over 57,000 military veterans to receive the plates in British Columbia. "The veterans licence plate is a revered honour for military veterans. It is a public acknowledgment that the public is appreciative of the valour and the sacrifice our veterans made. It is very sacred to them," BCVCA member Sheral Fraser said.
> 
> But the Royal Canadian Legion has made the argument that *the definition of veteran is changing*. The legion has opened the door to former RCMP officers to become members and have led the charge to change the licence plate rules in Ontario, Quebec, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.


LINK
Apparently the definition of a veteran is "someone who doesn't join the Legion."    op:


----------



## brihard

Six provinces already give them to any serving/former RCMP, and every province/territory that is vets plates but one (NWT) will give them to RCMP who served in a Special Duty Area.

I don’t personally care either way, but this is just another case of Veterans Outrage Syndrome.


----------



## Journeyman

Brihard said:
			
		

> Six provinces already give them to any serving/former RCMP, and every province/territory that is vets plates but one (NWT) will give them to RCMP who served in a Special Duty Area.
> 
> I don’t personally care either way


Speaking solely as someone without Vet's plates or Legion membership, I'm not too worked up either;  just passing along the butt-hurt  (there was another article on Jane Fonda being disappointed in Trudeau, but I thought that this was more gripping)


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates



Yea sure they will..


----------



## garb811

> ….members of the B.C. Veterans Commemorative Association (BCVCA), met with Attorney General David Eby on Monday to say the RCMP should not be eligible for the special plates. The BCVCA are currently involved with reviewing the applications and have approved over 57,000 military veterans to receive the plates in British Columbia. "The veterans licence plate is a revered honour for military veterans. It is a public acknowledgment that the public is appreciative of the valour and the sacrifice our veterans made. It is very sacred to them," BCVCA member Sheral Fraser said.



I got curious who "our" veterans were so looked up their criteria.



> WWII, Korea, Gulf War, the Balkan Wars, Afghanistan, or other UN Peacekeeping Missions as a member of:
> The Canadian Armed Forces, or
> An Allied Force, or
> The Canadian or Allied War Time Merchant Navy
> A member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Regular or Reserves, who successfully completed basic training
> UN or NATO Operations as a member of:
> The Canadian Armed Forces, or
> A UN or NATO Alliance Force serving in an Operation with the Canadian Armed Forces
> UN or NATO operation under command of the Canadian Armed Forces as a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Municipal Police, or Correctional Services of Canada
> Similarly qualified member of a British Commonwealth of Nations Armed Force who are honourably discharged. Unfortunately, currently serving members are not eligible.



Glad to see that if a member of the Army of Uruguay who served on Op CROCODILE retires and moves to BC, they will be able to get a plate though...


----------



## Furniture

Seems like the standard vetflakes/Rememberance Day heros are out in one's and two's to create a media buzz...


----------



## Pusser

Denying the RCMP status as "veterans" is utter nonsense.  The people against this need to do some research.  Consider:

1)  they are a paramilitary organization with very strong military traditions
2)  NWMP members formed the nucleus of Lord Strathcona's Horse when that regiment was raised during the Boer War
3)  NWMP members also formed several units for service in WWI
4)  Canada had no Military Police at the beginning of WWII and RCMP members stepped up to from Provost Companies
5)  By Royal decree, they are officially a "Regiment of Dragoons," which gives them the right to carry battle honours (which they do - including the Northwest Rebellions, the Boer War and both World Wars)
6)  They serve in a counter-intelligence and national security role, most notably in wartime
7)  The NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP have been involved in every conflict in which Canada has engaged since their formation and their members continue to serve on military operations today

The RCMP has earned it's place on the fourth corner of the National War Memorial and they are veterans.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

:goodpost: Well said!


----------



## Rifleman62

Plus the RCMP has a Regimental March. ;D

https://www.facebook.com/RCMPVets/posts/rcmp-regimental-march-past-turns/1364342596960446/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoQpj4DQKdY


----------



## Good2Golf

So the RCMP officer I would occasionally work with from the POMLT in Afghanistan is less (ie NOT) a veteran, vs a CAF member who, while _also_ serving their country, may have never left the safety/confines of Canada itself? ???

*sigh* 

:


----------



## mariomike

"Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates if RCMP are eligible for same plates"

See also,

What is a Veteran? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/29033.100.html
5 pages.

Veterans License Plates  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/18176.100
5 pages.


----------



## medicineman

Pusser said:
			
		

> Denying the RCMP status as "veterans" is utter nonsense.  The people against this need to do some research.  Consider:
> 
> 1)  they are a paramilitary organization with very strong military traditions
> 2)  NWMP members formed the nucleus of Lord Strathcona's Horse when that regiment was raised during the Boer War
> 3)  NWMP members also formed several units for service in WWI
> 4)  Canada had no Military Police at the beginning of WWII and RCMP members stepped up to from Provost Companies
> 5)  By Royal decree, they are officially a "Regiment of Dragoons," which gives them the right to carry battle honours (which they do - including the Northwest Rebellions, the Boer War and both World Wars)
> 6)  They serve in a counter-intelligence and national security role, most notably in wartime
> 7)  The NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP have been involved in every conflict in which Canada has engaged since their formation and their members continue to serve on military operations today
> 
> The RCMP has earned it's place on the fourth corner of the National War Memorial and they are veterans.



I'd have to say that at least half the people in this country are quite ignorant of its own history - this included.  I'd also go so far as to say that perhaps people don't learn enough Canadian military history in recruit training - I want to say we had exactly 90 minutes of it during my Recruit training in 1988...though we did get little vignettes a 2-4 times a week of various VC and other bravery award winners through their medal citations.  

MM


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> vs a CAF member who, while _also_ serving their country, may have never left the safety/confines of Canada itself? ???



Looks like finishing BMQ is sufficient in some ( all? ) provinces,

"2. A member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Regular or Reserves, who successfully completed basic training."
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/funding-engagement-permits/vets-licence-plate-survey


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:
			
		

> Looks like finishing BMQ is sufficient in some ( all? ) provinces,
> 
> "2. A member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Regular or Reserves, who successfully completed basic training."
> https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/funding-engagement-permits/vets-licence-plate-survey



Yup.  All the more reason this is a mountain made from a molehill...

Funny thought: “Upset Veteran” hands back license, gets stopped by a Mountie for some traffic infraction, then tries to influence the Mountie with an “I’m a veteran, can you help me out?”  Then the Mountie replies with, “I know that. Your DL’s file shows you returned the plate, I’m assuming because you disagreed with Mounties being considered veterans.  Sorry, I’m not in a position to apply leniency - you’ll have to make your case in traffic court.  Here’s your ticket. Have a nice day.”

;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

Smash out basic training on weekends, quit, then shop around for some sweet discounts.


----------



## daftandbarmy

My wife won't let me get a Veterans' plate... she says that my driving is too good


----------



## dapaterson

Across the country, Royal Canadian Legion branches are facing the realities that come with aging member demographics.

About half of the legion’s 270,000 members are aged 65 or over — a statistic that’s taking a toll on everything from filling poppy campaign shifts to paying the monthly rent.

Ronn Anderson, president of the Manitoba and Northwest Ontario command, said it’s an issue affecting city and rural branches alike, with closures in small towns and big cities like Winnipeg.

“We are having a problem within the Royal Canadian Legion with our aging population,” Anderson said.

https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/aging-dwindling-legions-look-to-halt-long-decline-we-are-changing/wcm/1f035151-c634-48be-8846-3c4f478f735b


----------



## Journeyman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Across the country, Royal Canadian Legion branches are facing the realities that come with aging member demographics.


Ahh, so it's an aging problem;  here I thought it was Legion people treating military members and veterans as a burden, as they focused on playing dress-up with their make-believe medals, _et al_.


----------



## ModlrMike

Another branch closes its doors:

End of Royal Canadian Legion in Ste. Anne, Man.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The 2 legions were all dead in North Van by 8:00pm, along with the Army, Navy, Air Force club, the Federation of Eagles who manged to turn around their membership had a rocking band the and place was packed.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> The 2 legions were all dead in North Van by 8:00pm, along with the Army, Navy, Air Force club, the Federation of Eagles who manged to turn around their membership had a rocking band the and place was packed.



Never heard of the  Federation of Eagles before so I had to look it up on Wikipedia.


----------



## larry Strong

Red Deer, Ab. doesn't have a branch anymore.....



Cheers
Larry


----------



## stoker dave

I am not and have never been a member of the legion.  I have no opinions on them but I would like to share my recent experience. 

It was coming up to the 25th anniversary of OP FRICTION (Gulf War I) and I was curious if any events were planned.  I was deployed on this, so it is of interest to me.  I Googled something like "25 year anniversary gulf war Canada".  I found nothing official but I did find a directive from someone at Legion Headquarters saying that one way to attract new members would be to organize events around the 25th anniversary of Gulf War I.  

I emailed several of the local legion groups, introduced myself, referenced the directive and asked if they had anything planned.  I offered to participate or help organize something.  

Of the four or five emails I sent, I only received one reply.  So that is odd. 

Of the one reply I got, it was "let me look into this; I will get back to you".  The individual never got back to me. So that is odd, too. 

So overall my  experience was bit off-putting.  Again, I still have nothing really for (or against) the legion, but I thought this anecdote worth sharing.


----------



## X Royal

And it seems odd to me that they can have more than RCL Branch with the same number.
As for Branch 8 I've identified 4 so far? :


----------



## BillN

XRoyal.....

I believe I read that the branches are numbered by province, not nationally.

Cheers,
Bill


----------



## Loachman

X Royal said:
			
		

> And it seems odd to me that they can have more than RCL Branch with the same number.
> As for Branch 8 I've identified 4 so far?



You're right. I did not know that, but just looked online. Odd, but, yes, maybe 'tis provincial.

The real Branch 8 is the Stratford Ontario one. They've just moved into a brand-new building - smaller than many would have liked - but the much larger old one was deteriorating and would have cost more to repair than was worth it.

The Branch is quite healthy, in large part due to CWO Art Boone, who fought across France and Holland via the Scheldt Estuary campaign, and turned 94 on 12 November.

There's a funeral home across the narrow parking lot, owned by the bass drummer from the Stratford Police (and formerly T Coy 4 RCR) Pipes and Drums, who may also be a Legion member - possibly a good business move.


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in Radio Chatter,



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> The Legion has little to do with military service these days, and very little experience of same....
> 
> http://espritdecorps.ca/perspectives-1/calling-out-the-great-veteran-pretender
> 
> No wonder that they are poor guardians of the faith.



The Branch in my neighbourhood was in operation for 85 years. It was the only place you could get anything stronger than a ginger ale or a Coke. 

But, after the neighbourhood voted itself wet in 2000, its days were numbered. 

The "smoke free" bylaws didn't help either. They were hoping for an exemption, like they got for the liquor licence, but it didn't work out.

The building was sold to a single owner, who to turned it into his residence with space for his cars.


----------



## dapaterson

Appear to be a fair number of Legion branches with GoFundMe pages set up; with precarious finances at the best of times, a months long shutdown is more than they can handle.


----------



## stoker dave

I am going to paint with a rather broad brush here, but given that there is general consensus here that the RCL hasn't fulfilled its mission with regard to 'modern' veterans, is there an opportunity for a new organization to rise up and fill the vacuum?

Or is the whole idea of a club of ex-servicepersons anachronistic?


----------



## Weinie

I would posit that it is a "scale" problem. There are simply not enough interested retired members in any volume to make this a viable business case nationally, though a "League of Extraordinary Veterans" group might generate some local interest. Though still serving, I have no intention whatsoever to join the RCL upon retirement, they appear to serve as a 1970's-era social network, notwithstanding their claims to serve veterans. Very few "true" vets serve on the Exec committees. These realities seems to be well understood, and a detriment to membership, amongst serving CAF members. :2c:


----------



## daftandbarmy

stoker dave said:
			
		

> I am going to paint with a rather broad brush here, but given that there is general consensus here that the RCL hasn't fulfilled its mission with regard to 'modern' veterans, is there an opportunity for a new organization to rise up and fill the vacuum?
> 
> Or is the whole idea of a club of ex-servicepersons anachronistic?



I'd say that the Legion has an amazingly strong brand presence, especially around Remembrance Day, but it's usually put back in the box by mid-November. There's an opportunity to give that brand more legs, especially through innovative initiatives like this:

Royal Canadian Legion partners with Fortnite to teach military history for Remembrance Day

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-royal-canadian-legion-partners-with-fortnite-video-game-to-teach/

If they get their online/ social media marketing strategy tuned up as, perhaps, 'The Custodians of Remembrance, Service and Selflessness' or something like that, they won't need 'walk ins' as much anymore.


----------



## Navy_Pete

stoker dave said:
			
		

> I am going to paint with a rather broad brush here, but given that there is general consensus here that the RCL hasn't fulfilled its mission with regard to 'modern' veterans, is there an opportunity for a new organization to rise up and fill the vacuum?
> 
> Or is the whole idea of a club of ex-servicepersons anachronistic?



The RCL is actually a majority civilian organization with a veneer of being a veterans organization. There are lots of other, smaller veterans groups made up of actual veterans.

Sure, there are issues with specific people at different branches being jerks to modern vets, but I think it's time the RCL stops being a recognized organization for the GoC to talk to when they are looking at pension/benefits changes, as they straight up sold us out last time around.  They do lots of good work with Rembrance Day, and thought that Fortnite bit was inspired, but they are simply out of touch.


----------



## Eaglelord17

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I'd say that the Legion has an amazingly strong brand presence, especially around Remembrance Day, but it's usually put back in the box by mid-November. There's an opportunity to give that brand more legs, especially through innovative initiatives like this:
> 
> Royal Canadian Legion partners with Fortnite to teach military history for Remembrance Day
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-royal-canadian-legion-partners-with-fortnite-video-game-to-teach/
> 
> If they get their online/ social media marketing strategy tuned up as, perhaps, 'The Custodians of Remembrance, Service and Selflessness' or something like that, they won't need 'walk ins' as much anymore.



I will say I get more and more disgusted with my local remembrance day ceremonies with each year. The Legion uses it to advertise for themselves, not for what it is supposed to be. Giving away awards, thanking the members who did the best poppy drive, etc. It honestly sickens me that these people use it for their own self aggrandizement and if that organization ceased to exist I honestly wouldn't shed a tear.


----------



## Weinie

My soon to be 14 yr old saw the Legion Fortnite link, looked at for 30 seconds, and then went back to the real game. We have attended Remembrance Day ceremonies for 10 years together, to him, the "Legion" is the place with free food after the ceremony. Don't think I could encourage him to attend for any of the other 364 days of the year, nor have the attraction efforts paid off.


----------



## Kat Stevens

The Legion does a terrible job of marketing itself. The one thing every retired person says they miss the most, if they miss anything at all, is the camaraderie. Civies just don't get us, I keep hearing.  It seems to me if you Real Vets, and us sad old cold war pasture geldings really gave a rat's rectum about "the guys", they'd join the Legion en mass and fix it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Target Up said:
			
		

> The Legion does a terrible job of marketing itself. The one thing every retired person says they miss the most, if they miss anything at all, is the camaraderie. Civies just don't get us, I keep hearing.  It seems to me if you Real Vets, and us sad old cold war pasture geldings really gave a rat's rectum about "the guys", they'd join the Legion en mass and fix it.



I've had this same discussion with several of our AFG vets, most of whom were at least 15 - 20 years younger than me. Some of them actually went to their local Legion wanting to join, contribute and hang out, but were literally shunned in a variety of ways by the incumbents.

Alot of the 'shunners' were ex-CAF 'Cold Warriors', and the civvies were apparently more welcoming. 

In any case, they didn't go back for obvious reasons.


----------



## Kat Stevens

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I've had this same discussion with several of our AFG vets, most of whom were at least 15 - 20 years younger than me. Some of them actually went to their local Legion wanting to join, contribute and hang out, but were literally shunned in a variety of ways by the incumbents.
> 
> Alot of the 'shunners' were ex-CAF 'Cold Warriors', and the civvies were apparently more welcoming.
> 
> In any case, they didn't go back for obvious reasons.



I'm still a card carrying dues paying member. My branch has maybe 12 vets of any type. I'd be over the moon if there were more, from any generation. It might just get my old arse in there a bit more frequently. As it is, I maybe drop in for a fast beer once a month or so, as it's the same old crap every time, associates sitting around playing or pool and not really speaking my language. I'd like nothing better than a bloodless coup to make the legion what it was supposed to be.


----------



## Lumber

The younger generations (I'm including millennials here) get most of their social interactions online, through social media and other communications platforms. Heck, most of the people I know (early to  mid-30s and younger) get physically uncomfortable when someone actually _calls_ them instead of just texting/messaging them.

Sure, we still enjoy and crave actual physical "get-togethers", but these are far more limited to groups of people that we know well and are comfortable with being around (i.e. close friends and family). 

So, the idea of regularly hanging out in a group setting with a revolving door of people that we only know passingly is just not a very appealing idea to modern generations. We simply don't like making small talk with people we don't know.

I was a member of a legion during one of my 3 year postings, but I only _ever_ went to the Monday night dart league, and even then, I only went because 2 of my closest high-school friends were also members of the league. Even with my friends there, I wouldn't have gone if there wasn't something for me to "do" while there (because I'd rather be at home doing a half-dozen other things than engaging in small talk with people I don't know... actually I don't much like small talk with people I _do_ know, so maybe that's just me).

All that is to say is that, unless the RCL completely changes it's model, it will wither, as it just doesn't have a place in the modern generation. IMO.


----------



## stoker dave

I think this is a very good and useful discussion.   Lumber makes some excellent points and brings a good perspective from his (or her?) generation. 

I will also support the idea of fundamentally changing the RCL.  It should not be about sitting around and telling stories (some of which may even be true).  It should be about doing things.   Just off the top of my head, here is what I think the RCL should be doing:

- second career assistance and transition to civilian life
- assistance with job hunting and act as a recruiting agency for civilian jobs
- liaison with every other DND / veterans group / reserve unit
- liaison with every other ex-service group such as VVV, motorcycle clubs, RMC ex-cadets, etc.   
- supporting and assisting vital humanitarian work like supporting homeless vets
- a resource to provide ex-service personnel for speaking, consulting, work engagements, history lessons, etc. 
- a repository of experts in their field(s)
- a repository of 'living history' that engages with students of history, provides reports and papers on various exercises, operations, etc.  
- regularly hold seminars to present and discuss DND activities, procurement, operations, exercises, etc.  

OK.  That is off the top of my head in five minutes.  What can anyone else offer?


----------



## Baz

stoker dave said:
			
		

> OK.  That is off the top of my head in five minutes.  What can anyone else offer?



Public education on the reality of military life, and some of the particular challenges faced by veterans, including mental health challenges.


----------



## MilEME09

Lumber said:
			
		

> The younger generations (I'm including millennials here) get most of their social interactions online, through social media and other communications platforms. Heck, most of the people I know (early to  mid-30s and younger) get physically uncomfortable when someone actually _calls_ them instead of just texting/messaging them.
> 
> Sure, we still enjoy and crave actual physical "get-togethers", but these are far more limited to groups of people that we know well and are comfortable with being around (i.e. close friends and family).
> 
> So, the idea of regularly hanging out in a group setting with a revolving door of people that we only know passingly is just not a very appealing idea to modern generations. We simply don't like making small talk with people we don't know.



As a millennial I can say not all are online only introverts, I'd love to head over to the legion for pint now and again, but as many have stated, the atmosphere is sometimes less then welcoming to the younger generations of soldiers. The old boys club so to speak is an empire that needs to be brought down for the RCL to change, but people are stubborn.


----------



## Kat Stevens

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> As a millennial I can say not all are online only introverts, I'd love to head over to the legion for pint now and again, but as many have stated, the atmosphere is sometimes less then welcoming to the younger generations of soldiers. The old boys club so to speak is an empire that needs to be brought down for the RCL to change, but people are stubborn.



Don't worry, the old guys are dying off pretty regularly now, even faster thanks to covid. The real problem at legions is they are largely ran by people who never served a day in their lives, and view vets as a threat to their little kingdom. I see the little eye rolls when I'm in there with the the only other vet I talk to and we start swapping lies.


----------



## Kilted

I think to a certain degree this has always been found at the Legion, even when veterans outnumbered civilians. I've even heard stories about veterans from different wars being treated differently, because the older generation felt that the younger generation hadn't done as much as them. I think that there are two perceptions that keep current serving and recently retired members away any other time besides Remembrance Day. First off, is the number of civilians which are members, which unfortunately the Legion could not survive without. There isn't much that can be done about this besides have more serving and retired members join to offset the ratio. And of course there is the perception that the Legion is full of old people, while I am only basing this on my local situation, I'm sure it's true else where. I've seen some Legions who have been supportive of serving members, and others that have been indifferent. I even remember after a change of command parade the regiment went to the local Legion, we had a new troop acting as a GD because he didn't have a uniform, who was kicked out of the Legion because he was wearing a turban. I don't think that it was anyone from their executive who did it, and was probably a member acting on their own, but it was only about ten years ago.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Target Up said:
			
		

> I'd like nothing better than a bloodless coup to make the legion what it was supposed to be.



'Bloodless'? You're no fun


----------



## dapaterson

Most legions suffer from the problems every volunteer organization has: No one wants to do the hard stuff.  Owning and operating a club is hard work.  You have payroll, inventory and infrastructure costs to plan with limited revenue sources.  

Most Legions I have visited fail on planning their infra. As long as they can pay the tab for the beer delivery and the electricity and gas every month, they think they are successful.  That roof that need replacing every 15 year or so?  Not planned.  The 1957 boiler in the basement?  Nothing set aside for repairs or replacement.  The kitchen appliances, elevator, brickwork etc etc are not part of anyone's vision.  Even a fresh coat of paint isn't in the budget.

And so the buildings "develop more character".  And you can't raise bar prices because you're run down, and people won't pay more for drinking in a dive.  And since the parquet floor in the hall is uneven, the paint is peeling, and the kitchen can only produce hotdogs, chips and burnt coffee, you don't do great business in renting out the space for parties and receptions.


There's a Legion within 500m of my house, on a main street in a pretty desirable neighbourhood.   (Desirable despite, not because of, me living in the area).  It's bit of a destination area for restaurants and bars.  Yet the Legion can't make it work; their bar is a second-floor walk up with a decrepit elevator, and odd opening hours.  With some imagination they might be able to make it work; but I'm pretty sure that the shutdown due to COVID will close them down permanently.  Because even though they're sitting on a piece of land worth seven figures, I can't see any realistic assessment of their business resulting in anyone lending them a cent.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The Legion could take a bigger role in helping Vets deal with VAC. The Legion could offer a warmer environment for vets than the cold bureaucracy of Veterans Affairs. Expand on the Provincial Officer program.

Legion could tap into some VAC money to better redirect it to vets so we're not giving back hundreds of millions of dollars.

Legion gets some sorely needed cash flow for building maintenance and structure including paid staff which in turn supports the civilians and vets who like going there to socialize and drink.


----------



## mariomike

Ours went out of business back in 2013. Sold for $1,800,000


----------



## MilEME09

The brand new(ish) Kensington legion in Calgary is in a lot of trouble given covid 19. The company i work for leases from them, situation is bleak to say the least.


----------



## Lumber

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There's a Legion within 500m of my house, on a main street in a pretty desirable neighbourhood.   (Desirable despite, not because of, me living in the area).  It's bit of a destination area for restaurants and bars.  Yet the Legion can't make it work; their bar is a second-floor walk up with a decrepit elevator, and odd opening hours.  With some imagination they might be able to make it work; but I'm pretty sure that the shutdown due to COVID will close them down permanently.  Because even though they're sitting on a piece of land worth seven figures, I can't see any realistic assessment of their business resulting in anyone lending them a cent.



This sounds a lot like the one on *Main* st. Is it?


----------



## dapaterson

Lumber said:
			
		

> This sounds a lot like the one on *Main* st. Is it?



Nope.

But it's funny how many have similar issues.  One could even say that those problems are... legion.


----------



## mariomike

Ours was built as a Legion, and remained so for 85 years. These are the before and after pics. I am sure the property increased in value after being sold in 2013. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/72+Durie+St,+Toronto,+ON+M6S+3E8/@43.6485156,-79.4772146,3a,75y,257.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDnFyyHENTcZI3s5CZl2ISQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x882b367d8ab5d963:0xa2c3a455229d2911!8m2!3d43.6484463!4d-79.4775513


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Nope.
> 
> But it's funny how many have similar issues.  One could even say that those problems are... legion.



ba-dum.... tiss


----------



## dapaterson

The RCL is approaching the Federal government for relief; they fear ten percent of their branches may not survive.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/legions-across-canada-could-close-permanently-asking-feds-to-help-1.4995224


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The RCL is approaching the Federal government for relief; they fear ten percent of their branches may not survive.
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/legions-across-canada-could-close-permanently-asking-feds-to-help-1.4995224



A bit of a cull of barely viable branches might not be a terrible thing. The RCL badly needs to modernize its model, and restore some focus on veterans service delivery. There's are some fantastic branches out there, and some good initiatives underway. And then there are those that epitomize the issues many see with the Legion.

There is soul searching going on within the Legion at high levels, and there's a group of modern vets trying to work in parallel to get some modernization happening, but it may need a real shock to the system to happen.


----------



## dimsum

Maybe this is the shock that can tilt the Legion towards a model like the Returned and Services League (RSL) in Australia.  It's broadly similar but updated, and the clubs are full-fledged bar/restaurants.  In some of the more famous beach towns (specifically the ones on the Gold Coast), the local RSLs are actually good spots for a good meal and drinks at decent prices.  

In those places, if you didn't actually know you were going to the RSL, aside from a sign and letterhead you'd think you were at a normal pub restaurant.


----------



## Furniture

Brihard said:
			
		

> A bit of a cull of barely viable branches might not be a terrible thing. The RCL badly needs to modernize its model, and restore some focus on veterans service delivery. There's are some fantastic branches out there, and some good initiatives underway. And then there are those that epitomize the issues many see with the Legion.
> 
> There is soul searching going on within the Legion at high levels, and there's a group of modern vets trying to work in parallel to get some modernization happening, but it may need a real shock to the system to happen.



I agree with that assessment completely. Perhaps the branches that are nothing more than a community service club need to die for the RCL to get back to being a predominantly veteran based organization. We are no longer within a few years of the end of two mass mobilizations, so every small town across the country doesn't require a veterans hall.


----------



## Underway

Furniture said:
			
		

> ... so every small town across the country doesn't require a veterans hall.



For many small towns the Legion is the only place to get a beer, have an event or meeting, play some pool etc...  It's a social gathering place, and critical to knitting people together.

That being said, that's not the Legions raison d'etre


----------



## dapaterson

Underway said:
			
		

> That being said, that's not the Legions raison d'etre



Exactly.

That's meat raffles.


----------



## mariomike

Underway said:
			
		

> For many small towns the Legion is the only place to get a beer,



It was the only place in my neighbourhood.


----------



## Furniture

Underway said:
			
		

> For many small towns the Legion is the only place to get a beer, have an event or meeting, play some pool etc...  It's a social gathering place, and critical to knitting people together.
> 
> That being said, that's not the Legions raison d'etre



The problem as I have experienced it is that many of the small town branches only view themselves as the local watering hole, with some occasional costume wearing thrown in. I have been made feel  more welcome in small town pubs than in almost any Legion branch I have ever been to. My girlfriend and I got stared at on Remembrance Day one year in Charlottetown, while my girlfriend was asked aggressive questions about how "sailor" she really is. Of all days to make uniformed CAF members feel unwelcome, that had to be the strangest...  

If communities need/want a social club for gathering, knitting, meat draws, etc. they should establish one, or bring in one of the many other service clubs that do the same thing. The RCL is supposed to be veterans supporting veterans.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Furniture said:
			
		

> The problem as I have experienced it is that many of the small town branches only view themselves as the local watering hole, with some occasional costume wearing thrown in. I have been made feel  more welcome in small town pubs than in almost any Legion branch I have ever been to. My girlfriend and I got stared at on Remembrance Day one year in Charlottetown, while my girlfriend was asked aggressive questions about how "sailor" she really is. Of all days to make uniformed CAF members feel unwelcome, that had to be the strangest...
> 
> If communities need/want a social club for gathering, knitting, meat draws, etc. they should establish one, or bring in one of the many other service clubs that do the same thing. The RCL is supposed to be veterans supporting veterans.



Tim Hortons' brand would probably do a bang up job of providing a central point of appreciation and congregation for veterans across Canada, in all sizes of community and - even better - be associated with coffee, not booze.


----------



## Kat Stevens

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Tim Hortons' brand would probably do a bang up job of providing a central point of appreciation and congregation for veterans across Canada, in all sizes of community and - even better - be associated with coffee, not booze.



That kind of negativity we can do without around here, mister.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I worry about the loss of support for the cadets as well. Our Navy League depends on legion support.


----------



## dimsum

Furniture said:
			
		

> while my girlfriend was asked aggressive questions about how "sailor" she really is.



Wtf.  Was it due to lack of medals or because some dinosaur didn't think women should be in the Navy?


----------



## Rifleman62

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The RCL is approaching the Federal government for relief; they fear ten percent of their branches may not survive.
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/legions-across-canada-could-close-permanently-asking-feds-to-help-1.4995224



Get the RCL to file a disability claim. We will find out if they are successful in approx 100 weeks. If they fail, file an appeal and wait another 100 weeks.

Thus they may understand Vets problems.


----------



## Navy_Pete

For the full experience, it should be rejected out of hand on the first submission, regardless of merit.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Target Up said:
			
		

> That kind of negativity we can do without around here, mister.



I'll drink to that!  :cheers:


----------



## Furniture

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wtf.  Was it due to lack of medals or because some dinosaur didn't think women should be in the Navy?



A dinosaur that didn't believe women are in "real" navy trades... Worst part is the guy was former air force.


----------



## stoker dave

Brihard said:
			
		

> There is soul searching going on within the Legion at high levels, and there's a group of modern vets trying to work in parallel to get some modernization happening, but it may need a real shock to the system to happen.



That is useful information.  Can you expand?  Who are these people?  Can you share contact info?  Are they receptive to feedback and input?  Are they aware of this discussion?   It seems like an opportune time to speak up.  Thank you.


----------



## Underway

Furniture said:
			
		

> The problem as I have experienced it is that many of the small town branches only view themselves as the local watering hole, with some occasional costume wearing thrown in. I have been made feel  more welcome in small town pubs than in almost any Legion branch I have ever been to. My girlfriend and I got stared at on Remembrance Day one year in Charlottetown, while my girlfriend was asked aggressive questions about how "sailor" she really is. Of all days to make uniformed CAF members feel unwelcome, that had to be the strangest...
> 
> If communities need/want a social club for gathering, knitting, meat draws, etc. they should establish one, or bring in one of the many other service clubs that do the same thing. The RCL is supposed to be veterans supporting veterans.



The Legion is very good at "gate keeping" (as is PEI interestingly enough).  They are an inherently conservative organization and extremely resistant to change.  God forbid you try to enter one as a currently serving member with a Turban or other religious head covering.  Gasp!  The scandal!



> Wtf.  Was it due to lack of medals or because some dinosaur didn't think women should be in the Navy?



No, no.  We use the colour/lack of an anchor to discriminate who the "real sailors" are in the RCN now.   :


----------



## dapaterson

Underway said:
			
		

> No, no.  We use the colour/lack of an anchor to discriminate who the "real sailors" are in the RCN now.   :



That's absurd.

You can tell real sailors because they're clean shaven.  Bearded sailors are the ones who are in shore billets - the better the beard, the longer since they've been to sea, so the more suspect they are.  :stirpot:


----------



## dimsum

dapaterson said:
			
		

> That's absurd.
> 
> You can tell real sailors because they're clean shaven.  Bearded sailors are the ones who are in shore billets - the better the beard, the longer since they've been to sea, so the more suspect they are.  :stirpot:



 :rofl: 

That is some glorious reverse psychology and I love it.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Not enough "bearded-ladies" to account for the feminine side of the house.  ;D


----------



## Underway

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Not enough "bearded-ladies" to account for the feminine side of the house.  ;D



Well it brings the entire topic full circle. All women are amazing sailors by default because of their lack of a beard. What was that airforce vet thinking!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Furniture said:
			
		

> A dinosaur that didn't believe women are in "real" navy trades... Worst part is the guy was former air force.



I was once witness to a timely and appropriate response delivered to a similar insult. 

Among other things it involved the deployment of the two sacred words, well understood by those of the military culture: 'F*ck O**


----------



## ArmyRick

Not to add fuel to this fire but what the heck.

Several remembrance days ago (it took me 23 trys to spell remembrance correctly, go infantry!) I was at a local ceremony. Won't say which town to avoid embarrassment. The local legion (about 20-25 strong) marched and all the local people clapped and said thanks for your service. Most or all of those marching were wearing "right side" medals (and knowing many personally never served a day in the military)
Meanwhile, myself and many other CF members stood on the side watching in DEU with our Bosnia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Cyprus, etc. (No, I haven't been to all this places, just looking around its what I saw, I have only served three tours Bosnia) medals on our "left side".  The public barely noticed us and even asked a few of us to step aside to better see the parade. Ironic. Truth is myself and a RCR sergeant looked at each other and shook our heads. Ironic.

Sad part is, its so Canada. They see something and totally misinterpret it. At that particular legion, serving members drank in one area (nearby base provides plenty of fresh faces for a mandatory parade) and the social club drinks elsewhere. Never the two shall meet. 

Anybody else seeing similar things? Or is it just me?


----------



## brihard

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Not to add fuel to this fire but what the heck.
> 
> Several remembrance days ago (it took me 23 trys to spell remembrance correctly, go infantry!) I was at a local ceremony. Won't say which town to avoid embarrassment. The local legion (about 20-25 strong) marched and all the local people clapped and said thanks for your service. Most or all of those marching were wearing "right side" medals (and knowing many personally never served a day in the military)
> Meanwhile, myself and many other CF members stood on the side watching in DEU with our Bosnia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Cyprus, etc. (No, I haven't been to all this places, just looking around its what I saw, I have only served three tours Bosnia) medals on our "left side".  The public barely noticed us and even asked a few of us to step aside to better see the parade. Ironic. Truth is myself and a RCR sergeant looked at each other and shook our heads. Ironic.
> 
> Sad part is, its so Canada. They see something and totally misinterpret it. At that particular legion, serving members drank in one area (nearby base provides plenty of fresh faces for a mandatory parade) and the social club drinks elsewhere. Never the two shall meet.
> 
> Anybody else seeing similar things? Or is it just me?



I've heard such tales, and seen the opposite as well.

I was out in Coquitlam, BC for the whole month of November to attend to the aftermath of the death of a family member. Knowing I would be missing the 11th in Ottawa, I brought my medals with me with the intent of quietly attending whatever small local service I could find. I made my way to the school where the thing was kicking off, and quickly got muckled onto by a local Legion member who saw my gongs and very courteously steered me towards the 'veterans' seating at the front of the school gym for the indoor service. After that, they moved everyone outside and again those of us with service were chivvied to the front section of the small parade they held to the cenotaph where they then finished the ceremony. I was very pleasantly surprised at how many people from the public turned up for the service as well. It was quite well done. The Legion afterwards was very well attended.


----------



## observor 69

Army Rick, when I started reading your comment I had to double-check that it wasn't my name at the top.


----------



## Underway

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Not to add fuel to this fire but what the heck.
> 
> Several remembrance days ago (it took me 23 trys to spell remembrance correctly, go infantry!) I was at a local ceremony. Won't say which town to avoid embarrassment. The local legion (about 20-25 strong) marched and all the local people clapped and said thanks for your service. Most or all of those marching were wearing "right side" medals (and knowing many personally never served a day in the military)
> Meanwhile, myself and many other CF members stood on the side watching in DEU with our Bosnia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Cyprus, etc. (No, I haven't been to all this places, just looking around its what I saw, I have only served three tours Bosnia) medals on our "left side".  The public barely noticed us and even asked a few of us to step aside to better see the parade. Ironic. Truth is myself and a RCR sergeant looked at each other and shook our heads. Ironic.
> 
> Sad part is, its so Canada. They see something and totally misinterpret it. At that particular legion, serving members drank in one area (nearby base provides plenty of fresh faces for a mandatory parade) and the social club drinks elsewhere. Never the two shall meet.
> 
> Anybody else seeing similar things? Or is it just me?



Generally, for that sort of stuff my local legion is quite good.  As are the local air cadets.  There a quite a few "woulda, shoulds, coulda's" in that legion and are a bit to excited to talk to a currently serving member.  But I'm also a loudmouth and inject myself into card games and like drinking with strangers so there's that...


----------



## dimsum

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> (it took me 23 trys to spell remembrance correctly, go infantry!)



And in those 23 tries, you didn't bother to check the spelling of "trys"


----------



## OldSolduer

Dimsum said:
			
		

> And in those 23 tries, you didn't bother to check the spelling of "trys"



Red crayons are the tastiest.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Red crayons are the tastiest.



Luckily, there's an MRE menu for that


----------



## dapaterson

Six hundred twenty five legions are suing their insurers.  A class action alleges that the insurer claims a pandemic is not an outbreak; the class action is seeking an estimated $20M.

Story: https://london.ctvnews.ca/625-legions-sue-insurer-for-20m-contending-they-have-been-left-in-dire-straits-1.5000047

Video: https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1985930&playlistId=1.4482008&binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=ossT3FI


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Six hundred twenty five legions are suing their insurers.  A class action alleges that the insurer claims a pandemic is not an outbreak; the class action is seeking an estimated $20M.
> 
> Story: https://london.ctvnews.ca/625-legions-sue-insurer-for-20m-contending-they-have-been-left-in-dire-straits-1.5000047
> 
> Video: https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1985930&playlistId=1.4482008&binId=1.810401&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=ossT3FI



“A pandemic is not an outbreak”... I didn’t know Carleton offered law degrees now.


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> “A pandemic is not an outbreak”... I didn’t know Carleton offered law degrees now.



https://carleton.ca/law/


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> https://carleton.ca/law/



I meant one that gets you in a court room, not a BA.


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> I meant one that gets you in a court room, not a BA.



I'll have you know that many, many Carleton BAs wind up in a court room.  And they get to speak there, too.

"I plead not guilty."


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I'll have you know that many, many Carleton BAs wind up in a court room.  And they get to speak there, too.
> 
> "I plead not guilty."



LOL, I've probably accounted for one or two of them.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/woman-donates-collection-to-legion-covid19-1.5646391



Collection estimated to be worth $250,000, says Madonna Porter
Heather Gillis · CBC News · Posted: Jul 11, 2020 4:00 PM NT | Last Updated: July 11


There's a trove of antiques and collectibles in an unassuming building at the back of Madonna Porter's Conception Bay South home. 
The treasures in her personal museum include 500 Barbie dolls, countless tea pots, china plates, cameras and other collectibles. 

There's an antique Zenith floor model radio hidden behind milk crates of books, and even a picture of Queen Elizabeth during her 1978 visit to the province, sitting with then St. John's Mayor Dorothy Wyatt.
On Saturday, she donated all of it to the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 1.
"I had a lot of happy days in my life, but I can say this is the happiest," said Porter, who started collecting about 15 years ago.


Madonna Porter has been collecting for about 15 years. Saturday, she donated 500 barbie dolls, tea pots, and other items to the Royal Canadian Legion. (Heather Gillis/CBC)
Porter, 70, said she started collecting to help cancer survivors, because her daughter died from cancer at age 43.
But now she's getting older, and said she's starting to get sick herself. The collection is too much for her to move alone, and she doesn't know how to use a computer to sell her valuables online.
So she decided to donate her collection.
She said heard on the news that Royal Canadian Legion branches in the province were struggling to keep their doors open, so she called Branch 1 in St. John's.
"And I said, 'Oh my God, he probably won't take me seriously, who got 500 Barbie dolls?'" said Porter.

Executives from the legion's branch visited Porter the next day. 
"I don't think they knew what to say," adding she loves to see the expression on people's faces when they first see her collection.
Porter said an antique dealer estimates her collection is worth about $250,000.
People have approached Porter in the past about buying some of her items, but she wasn't ready to sell. 
"I wouldn't give you the hair off a Barbie doll over there, right?" laughed Porter.


A vintage floor model radio is hidden behind milk crates full of books in a shed on Madonna Porter's property in Conception Bay South. (Heather Gillis/CBC)
Greg Grenning, president of Branch 1, says the donation will be a big help to the Legion.
"We're just struggling, right now, to keep our doors open," he said.
Grenning said the Legion relies on gatherings like weddings, dances and other social events to make money, which are limited now because of the COVID-19 pandemic.
"This gesture has been fantastic, and whatever money we can raise will go toward our operating," he said.
Grenning said they will also start an annual scholarship or bursary honouring Porter and her daughter.
But for now, legion members will spend their time carefully packing Porter's collection into boxes, and numbering and itemizing each piece.
Grenning said they will auction items on sites like eBay.

"There's a lot of collectors out there who would like to have some of this stuff," said Grenning.
"Whether we get $10,000 or we get $100,000, it's all it's something we don't have right now.… Whatever money we do get, it's so much appreciated, and [we] can't thank her enough for what she's doing."
While Porter finds it stressful to give away her collection, she said it was meant to be.
"I prayed to God to bring someone to me so it could make my dream come true."


----------



## Navy_Pete

Sigh; well done RCL. Sure there is more to the story, and he may have been in the wrong, but kicking a WW2 vet and former branch president out of the legion without giving him any details why or letting him tell his side of the story is pretty shady and cowardly. What a gong show.



> 'My honour has been shredded': 94-year-old Vancouver vet fights legion expulsion
> 
> Royal Canadian Legion won't say why Ralph Jackson was ousted for 'theft or misappropriation' of funds
> 
> At 16, Ralph Jackson signed up to fight during the Second World War. Now, at 94, he's fighting for his dignity.
> 
> Jackson says he's been expelled from the Vancouver branch of the Royal Canadian Legion, where he was once president, for alleged "theft or misappropriation of legion funds." He says he never got his day in court and still doesn't know the details of his alleged crimes.
> 
> "I did nothing wrong. I never stole a penny. I would have liked to have known what money I did steal," says Jackson. "It's like condemning someone out of hand. You just come up with something and say, 'You're a thief.'"
> 
> While Jackson was ousted under legion bylaws, criminal charges were never laid.
> 
> After a two-and-a-half-year battle to have provincial and national legion headquarters review his case, Jackson is going public in a bid to finally clear his name.
> 
> "Before I die, I want that done. I would die gladly with a clean name ... that's what I want for my children to know, that I've been cleared of this," says Jackson. "My honour has been shredded."..
> 
> [more at link]



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-vet-fights-legion-expulsion-1.5724096


----------



## shawn5o

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Sigh; well done RCL. Sure there is more to the story, and he may have been in the wrong, but kicking a WW2 vet and former branch president out of the legion without giving him any details why or letting him tell his side of the story is pretty shady and cowardly. What a gong show.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-vet-fights-legion-expulsion-1.5724096



I agree NP

I wonder if there is any legal options available to him

 :cheers:


----------



## X Royal

I think there is far more to this story then has been shown yet in this thread.


----------



## FJAG

shawn5o said:
			
		

> I agree NP
> 
> I wonder if there is any legal options available to him
> 
> :cheers:



Sure.

The first step is to analyse if the RCL agency that did the expulsion acted within the RCL's by-laws. The fact that he says that he didn't even know that there was a hearing makes me wonder if he received proper notice. The appropriate rules start at Article III.

If the hearing was not conducted in accordance with the by-laws, then a court could interfere and issue a mandatory injunction to force a re-hearing with all the appropriate provisions in place. The court would not, however, substitute it's own decision for that of the appropriate RCL panel tasked with such a hearing.

Gentle reminder, going to court costs money, and the court can order a partial recovery of those costs in favour of the winning party.

 :cheers:


----------



## Blackadder1916

X Royal said:
			
		

> I think there is far more to this story then has been shown yet in this thread.



Turning over rocks can uncover things best left undisturbed.  Others viewing this story may have also started speculating about the personalities involved, digging down to see who may be the more sympathetic - a war veteran with the medals on the left side displaying his service or "possibly" someone who never served in uniform whose medals are all on the right side.  Having found only one tiny photo of the successor to the branch's presidency, no comment can be made about his service.  However, in looking at Mr. Jackson's collection of miniatures worn on his blazer in the photo accompanying the story, I can't help but notice a possible discrepancy between those items and some details provided in the posted article.



> As a young Jewish teenager from Glasgow, he joined the Scots Guard in 1943, but wasn't assigned to fight overseas. Instead, he became an instructor, giving sub-machine gun training to British commandos until the war's end.
> 
> He was sent overseas after the war and served in various countries, including Italy and France.



If those details are correct, then why is he wearing 39-45 Star, Italy Star, and France and Germany Star?


----------



## Weinie

Blackadder, 

I was about to ask the same question. There is even a question if he is entitled to the Defence Medal, as that was awarded for "three years" of service in the UK.


----------



## Michael OLeary

With the recurring news articles of Branches of the RCL on the brink of collapse, is this the time to know exactly what happens to all the memorabilia those Branches collected and preserved? Those items were donated by veterans and their families to Branches of a national veterans organization for safekeeping. What happens next should be known without waiting until a building is emptied and sold before those families start asking what happened to the artifacts.


----------



## dapaterson

The federal government has announced support to veterans organisations, including the RCL; up to $20M.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7456748/coronavirus-legions-branches-closing-20-brink/


----------



## MilEME09

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The federal government has announced support to veterans organisations, including the RCL; up to $20M.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7456748/coronavirus-legions-branches-closing-20-brink/



Considering how many legion branches there are, 20 million would mean less then 50k, probably even lower per branch, which would cover operations costs for maybe a month for a branch. Token measure.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It won't even cover the debt most branches have. Never mind monthly operating costs.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The federal government has announced support to veterans organisations, including the RCL; up to $20M.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7456748/coronavirus-legions-branches-closing-20-brink/



With the Legion, I wonder if that is not the equivalent to propping up video stores 10 years ago....


----------



## daftandbarmy

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> With the Legion, I wonder if that is not the equivalent to propping up *Betamax *video stores 10 years ago....



There, FTFY


----------



## Navy_Pete

What about the laser video discs? Turning them over mid-film was something of a downer, but the picture quality was much better.


----------



## dapaterson

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> What about the laser video discs? Turning them over mid-film was something of a downer, but the picture quality was much better.



Society has gone steadily downhill since we moved away from film strips with a cassette tape with BEEPs to change to the next frame.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Society has gone steadily downhill since we moved away from film strips with a cassette tape with BEEPs to change to the next frame.



And you needed a course and a projectionist license.


----------



## dapaterson

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And you needed a course and a projectionist license.


And safety training on acetylene lamps


----------



## AKa

Does anyone else have significant misgivings about this Legion offering?

https://www.poppystore.ca/poppy-puppy-7-600101

 :facepalm:

AK


----------



## mariomike

AK said:
			
		

> Does anyone else have significant misgivings about this Legion offering?
> 
> https://www.poppystore.ca/poppy-puppy-7-600101



Not for me. But, I remember years ago being sent into the homes of older people - some of which looked like Legion museums.  

When I was a kid, the Legion ( it's gone now ) was a "big deal" in our neighbourhood. ( Also happened to be the only place you could get a drink. )


----------



## AKa

mariomike said:
			
		

> Not for me. But, I remember years ago being sent into the homes of older people - some of which looked like Legion museums.
> 
> When I was a kid, the Legion ( it's gone now ) was a "big deal" in our neighbourhood. ( Also happened to be the only place you could get a drink. )



I don't have an issue with the Legion and it's poppy merchandise at all.  It's just that when I look at the image of the "Poppy Puppy", I don't see poppies...  I see something darker.

AK


----------



## daftandbarmy

AK said:
			
		

> I don't have an issue with the Legion and it's poppy merchandise at all.  It's just that when I look at the image of the "Poppy Puppy", I don't see poppies...  I see something darker.
> 
> AK



Like it was nailed with a 12 gauge?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

AK said:
			
		

> Does anyone else have significant misgivings about this Legion offering?
> 
> https://www.poppystore.ca/poppy-puppy-7-600101
> 
> :facepalm:
> 
> AK



Looks like it took a load of buckshot.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> Looks like it took a load of buckshot.



No kidding, that is kind of terrifying. What an awful piece of poorly executed merch.


----------



## Good2Golf

That the Legion would even consider the idea, let alone go through with it, is a good descriptor of its lack of connection with society today. :not-again:


----------



## Blackadder1916

And with a touch of seasonal Scroogeness









						B.C. Legion facing holiday eviction from building it helped build on land it donated  | Globalnews.ca
					

The Shalom Branch 178 was formed 75 years ago and has been active in the community since then, raising money for numerous causes and supporting veterans.




					globalnews.ca
				





> B.C. Legion facing holiday eviction from building it helped build on land it donated​A Vancouver branch of the Royal Canadian Legion says it’s facing a holiday eviction notice — from a building on land it originally bought, from a building it helped pay to build.
> 
> The Shalom Branch 178 was formed 75 years ago and has been active in the community since then, raising money for numerous causes and supporting veterans.
> 
> In 1973 it bought a piece of land at Maple Street and West 6th Avenue, which it gifted to a new housing society along with $1 million to help build a 106-unit low-income housing development.
> 
> Robert Underhill, second vice-president of the Legion’s B.C.-Yukon Command said that initiative founded on a key agreement.
> 
> “There was never, ever a lease created. It was on a handshake that the Legion, because of its donation to get the building they would be able to occupy the hall here for absolutely no fee,” he said.
> 
> Nearly 50 years later, Underhill said the society began demanding rent from the Legion. When the organization declined to pay, he said they were hit with a notice to vacate the property by Dec. 31.
> 
> . . .


----------



## OldSolduer

Blackadder1916 said:


> And with a touch of seasonal Scroogeness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. Legion facing holiday eviction from building it helped build on land it donated  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The Shalom Branch 178 was formed 75 years ago and has been active in the community since then, raising money for numerous causes and supporting veterans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


No doubt the new housing society board of directors - given the location on the left coast - is made up of "progressives" who have seen a loophole and decide the Legion is not longer required - in other words a big F6CK You.


----------



## dapaterson

Despite the claim in the article, the Building Society still is legally named  "SHALOM BRANCH #178 BUILDING SOCIETY".

The branch received prior attention due to a former president being expelled, then reinstated.  (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...lled-from-legion-wins-reinstatement-1.5796007)

Interestingly, the last report on the Building Society available from CRA (T3010 Registered Charity Information Return) states that one of the directors of the society has the same name as a former branch vice president mentioned in the CBC article.

Almost as if there may be more to this than meets the eye.


----------



## dapaterson

For anyone with a forensic accounting bent, you can look through the building society's financials at the link below going back to 2003.  It's apparent that whoever fills out their annual T3010 reports doesn't always look to prior years to ensure consistency in reporting.





__





						MAPLE CREST HOUSING SOCIETY — Charity Data
					





					www.charitydata.ca


----------



## dapaterson

Another CTV news article Handshake deal at the centre of Vancouver legion branch eviction fight

And a copy of an early version of the constitution and by-laws; originally, the members of the building society were all Legion members. 



			https://archives.jewishmuseum.ca/uploads/r/jewish-museum-archives-of-bc-2/b/5/d/b5df9f1a537b1b9baf084ec4f90553d14c6ce78cd83341155bbaf2d19bf0666d/A.2002.002.262.pdf
		


A good document hunt with the BC registrar of companies might be quite revealing...


----------



## dapaterson

And the Vancouver Sun has spoken with the head of the Building Society.  He alleges overdue rent of $163,800 (plus HST).









						Legion branch faces eviction Friday from its home in Vancouver
					

Shalom Branch 178 of the Royal Canadian Legion faces eviction Friday on the last day of 2021 for non-payment of $163,800 in rent




					vancouversun.com


----------



## dapaterson

It appears there has been a lengthy history of conflict.  Back in 2007, a minority of directors attempted a membership drive to oust the then-president; he and the other directors introduced new rues to limit new members, and the mess landed in the BC court system.



			https://www.lawgm.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/2007-BCSC-780.pdf
		


And a few years later, a medically retired lawyer living in the complex sued.






						2011 BCSC 1120 (CanLII) | Fink v. Shalom Branch #178 Building Society | CanLII
					

Access all information related to judgment Fink v. Shalom Branch #178 Building Society, 2011 BCSC 1120 (CanLII) on CanLII.



					www.canlii.org


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:


> It appears there has been a lengthy history of conflict ...


Internal strife within volunteer organizations and boards?  I'm shocked ...


----------



## Navy_Pete

Glad the legion is focusing on important things like trademark protection of the poppy, when they can't be arsed to get back to cadets volunteering to sell them or participate in the ceremony tomorrow. Maybe there is a vet somewhere using it as a patch or a tshirt they needed to go after instead.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/poppy-legion-unauthorized-sales-1.6644707

Maybe time to petition the GoC for them to take the trademark back?

The amount of stupid shit they sell with the poppy on it under their trademark is ridiculous.

THE POPPY STORE - HOME PAGE


----------



## ueo

Navy_Pete said:


> Glad the legion is focusing on important things like trademark protection of the poppy, when they can't be arsed to get back to cadets volunteering to sell them or participate in the ceremony tomorrow. Maybe there is a vet somewhere using it as a patch or a tshirt they needed to go after instead.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/poppy-legion-unauthorized-sales-1.6644707
> 
> Maybe time to petition the GoC for them to take the trademark back?
> 
> The amount of stupid shit they sell with the poppy on it under their trademark is ridiculous.
> 
> THE POPPY STORE - HOME PAGE


Gone civvie, dontcha know $$$$$


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Navy_Pete said:


> Glad the legion is focusing on important things like trademark protection of the poppy, when they can't be arsed to get back to cadets volunteering to sell them or participate in the ceremony tomorrow. Maybe there is a vet somewhere using it as a patch or a tshirt they needed to go after instead.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/poppy-legion-unauthorized-sales-1.6644707
> 
> Maybe time to petition the GoC for them to take the trademark back?
> 
> The amount of stupid shit they sell with the poppy on it under their trademark is ridiculous.
> 
> THE POPPY STORE - HOME PAGE



I am at the “despise” stage with the Legion and how they run a Remembrance Day ceremony/parade.

Today I stood and listened to an overly long list of every business and person who donates to the Poppy Fund.   But…not a single name was read from any war, conflict, mission of a community member who died in the service of Canada.  The guy reading the fuckin donation list was standing all of 10 feet from the cenotaph with all the names of those heroes engraved in the stone work.

No invite for vets and serving mbrs to place their poppies during the ceremony.

Go fuck yourself, RCL.   You are an embarrassing shell of a once great organization.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

They do a great service in Guelph.......


----------



## brihard

Eye In The Sky said:


> I am at the “despise” stage with the Legion and how they run a Remembrance Day ceremony/parade.
> 
> Today I stood and listened to an overly long list of every business and person who donates to the Poppy Fund.   But…not a single name was read from any war, conflict, mission of a community member who died in the service of Canada.  The guy reading the fuckin donation list was standing all of 10 feet from the cenotaph with all the names of those heroes engraved in the stone work.
> 
> No invite for vets and serving mbrs to place their poppies during the ceremony.
> 
> Go fuck yourself, RCL.   You are an embarrassing shell of a once great organization.


That’s a local branch trying to keep itself alive with local business sponsorships. I saw the same thing when I was living in a smaller town with a local branch run ceremony. Bob’s Auto Glass buys an over priced wreath, they get their name read out loud along with all the other donors. It’s unfortunate that that’s how a lot of ceremonies are going. Also a sad reality of trying to keep community service clubs going.

I’m not defending it, just sharing the observation.

The invitation for vets/members to come place poppies would be a really good suggestion. If limited during the ceremony to those individuals, it shouldn’t take long. I’ve seen it done before.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Look at these three "Veterans".  Not an ounce of visible military service amongst any of them.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Look at these three "Veterans".  Not an ounce of visible military service amongst any of them.


Do you know their personal service histories? If not what is your point?


----------



## Kilted

I think that it is important to remember that the actions of any one particular branch do not represent every branch in the organization. I've been to Remembrance Day Parades run by different branches. There are some considerable differences between how they are done. One Legion reads out every wreath that is placed by every organization under the sun. The other places them silently while reading out the names.  One of those parades is noticeably shorter than the other. 

Another thing that I think is important to mention is that in many communities the larger parade is on Remembrance Sunday with a scaled down version on the 11th.


----------



## MilEME09

Eaglelord17 said:


> Do you know their personal service histories? If not what is your point?


I think the point is something we all have complained about. The the legion is no longer run by veterans for veterans in many regions. Instead it's people who's uncles etc... served and then make the decisions for the organization to serve vets. Is this a blanket statement that isn't 100% accurate? Sure but the legion is dying a slow death because it is out of touch with the modern vet/service member who are refusing to join because they are looked down upon and ostracized by the old guard in many legions.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

MilEME09 said:


> I think the point is something we all have complained about. The the legion is no longer run by veterans for veterans in many regions. Instead it's people who's uncles etc... served and then make the decisions for the organization to serve vets. Is this a blanket statement that isn't 100% accurate? Sure but the legion is dying a slow death because it is out of touch with the modern vet/service member who are refusing to join because they are looked down upon and ostracized by the old guard in many legions.


I disagree,...in my opinion of course, there's a good chunk of the 'modern vets' who feel they need to be acknowledged somehow. I've NEVER had that feeling in pushing 40 years of Legion membership.  If I ever see another 'I served in the CAF.   You're welcome"  license cover I may have to flatten tires.

I was in, I served, I got paid, I got laid, I semi-did what I was told for 10 years, then I got out.  Big friggin whoop.....


----------



## rmc_wannabe

MilEME09 said:


> I think the point is something we all have complained about. The the legion is no longer run by veterans for veterans in many regions. Instead it's people who's uncles etc... served and then make the decisions for the organization to serve vets. Is this a blanket statement that isn't 100% accurate? Sure but the legion is dying a slow death because it is out of touch with the modern vet/service member who are refusing to join because they are looked down upon and ostracized by the old guard in many legions.


Bingo.

I live in a Garrison City and will not set foot in any of our Legions out of principle. When you pay dues, try to access services, and are treated as someone imposing on Bill and Doug's racist/sexist tirade by asking for the dart board to be unlocked... you know the score.

A lot of folks in the Afghan War cohort have worked hard accessing mental health support, peer support, and eschewing traditional coping mechanisms ("drink until we forget the war..."). The RCL does not cater to that goal in its current form. 

Dominion and Regional Commands may talk a good game, but individual branches are very much ruled and roosted by folks, some with zero connection to the military, who just want more folks to buy meat draw tickets and bring up declining bar sales.


----------



## Kilted

I think that it is important to remember that the Legions main roll is (taken from their website): 
The Royal Canadian Legion​When was the Legion founded?
What does the Legion do?
The Legion’s core mission revolves around supporting our Veterans, their families and our communities. Read more here:

You don't need to have military service to do that. The Legion was formed when a considerable percentage of the population had military service. Fast forward two decades after WWII and that number increases. Even if everyone who had served/ is serving joined the Legion today, it would still be no where near that number and the Legions probably still couldn't run with only veterans. That being said, just because someone didn't serve, doesn't mean that they can't be of service. 


It is true that some branches are badly run. The upper echelons of the Legion should have a tighter grip on them. 

That being said, if everyone who complained about the Legion actually got a Legion membership, attended the meetings and voted the individuals responsible for some of the issues, I think that it would do wonders.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Kilted said:


> I think that it is important to remember that the Legions main roll is (taken from their website):
> The Royal Canadian Legion​When was the Legion founded?
> What does the Legion do?
> The Legion’s core mission revolves around supporting our Veterans, their families and our communities. Read more here:
> 
> You don't need to have military service to do that. The Legion was formed when a considerable percentage of the population had military service. Fast forward two decades after WWII and that number increases. Even if everyone who had served/ is serving joined the Legion today, it would still be no where near that number and the Legions probably still couldn't run with only veterans. That being said, just because someone didn't serve, doesn't mean that they can't be of service.
> 
> 
> It is true that some branches are badly run. The upper echelons of the Legion should have a tighter grip on them.
> 
> That being said, if everyone who complained about the Legion actually got a Legion membership, attended the meetings and voted the individuals responsible for some of the issues, I think that it would do wonders.


I agree in principle, but practice is another thing all together.

I joined a legion. I paid dues. I attended meetings. I was treated as an outlier for the year I was a member because I was under 30, but had more operational experience than anyone on the executive. 

"Oh its OK. You'll understand how things work sooner or later..." was the response I received.

So I let the membership lapse. I haven't returned. I have no desire to put effort into an organization that lacks the desire to change. 

So yes, be part of the solution. Gotcha. But until there is a paradigm shift in practicing what they're promoting at the Branch level... count me out.


----------



## daftandbarmy

rmc_wannabe said:


> I agree in principle, but practice is another thing all together.
> 
> I joined a legion. I paid dues. I attended meetings. I was treated as an outlier for the year I was a member because I was under 30, but had more operational experience than anyone on the executive.
> 
> "Oh its OK. You'll understand how things work sooner or later..." was the response I received.
> 
> So I let the membership lapse. I haven't returned. I have no desire to put effort into an organization that lacks the desire to change.
> 
> So yes, be part of the solution. Gotcha. But until there is a paradigm shift in practicing what they're promoting at the Branch level... count me out.



I was once 'sworn' in to a Legion where - astonishingly - they wanted us to recite something that sounded like it came directly from the Orange Order's Operating Manual.

Having previously been engaged in wars fuelled by such bigotry, I declined to participate of course.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

rmc_wannabe said:


> but had more operational experience than anyone on the executive.


Yea,....and??


rmc_wannabe said:


> So yes, be part of the solution. Gotcha. But until there is a paradigm shift in practicing what they're promoting at the Branch level... count me out.


And that would be acknowledging that you have more operational experience then anyone on the executive?


Kilted said:


> That being said, if everyone who complained about the Legion actually got a Legion membership, attended the meetings and voted the individuals responsible for some of the issues, I think that it would do wonders.


Most walk in only when they need license plates and/or VAC forms.   Maybe some branches totally suck, and I've been lucky [belonged to 3 different], but one can only speak from their experience and/or expectations.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Kilted said:


> Another thing that I think is important to mention is that in many communities* the larger parade is on Remembrance Sunday* with a scaled down version on the 11th.



Remembrance Sunday?  While I'm familiar with the UK's commemorative days (Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday), I've never heard of the term (or the practice of separate events) being used in Canada.  Can you provide examples of any communities that do so?


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Yea,....and??


Fair point. Wasn't trying to beat my chest in the meeting, it was in reference to being asked "why aren't your mates coming down here too?" Which leads me to this:


Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And that would be acknowledging that you have more operational experience then anyone on the executive?


Not at all. I feel you may have missed my point or that I should have elaborated further.

When asked how to bring up membership, I offered the suggestion that the branch work with the many lodger units on our base to develop in roads and see what and where we can provide to help those not only currently serving, but those who were on their way out. I even said I would do the leg work and reach out to my contacts at these units.

I was promptly informed that the Branch Liaison Officer was busy enough and that they had already handed flyers to the Base PAO for distribution. Still no membership. So they would wait for folks to come to them.

So I stopped offering suggestions. They were happy sticking with the status quo and not


Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Most walk in only when they need license plates and/or VAC forms.   Maybe some branches totally suck, and I've been lucky [belonged to 3 different], but one can only speak from their experience and/or expectations.


Your personal experience, like mine, highlights the dichotomy of the RCL and its relationship with service folks. Some folk nare looking to get theirs and that's it. Some folks want to help in their community. Some folks just want a safe consumption site.

In the end, it wasn't for me and I did what I could with my limited time and effort.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Kilted said:


> That being said, if everyone who complained about the Legion actually got a Legion membership, attended the meetings and voted the individuals responsible for some of the issues, I think that it would do wonders.


I watch it dwindle for 37 years. Every year more civies. Every year, my vote became less and less important. They had an opportunity in 2001 to start drawing new Veterans. For 14 years they failed miserably, they didn't even try. Perhaps they feared that if enough new Veterans joined, the civilians would start losing power and ignored us? Who knows what they think. Anyway, when they failed to really and honestly make an effort, it sounded their death knell. Things like coming against cannabis treatment for Veterans. Right or wrong, there was no research offered. Just a 'Don't do it!' Maybe they forecasted the loss of drinking revenue and would rather see us drunk in the corner of their hovels than getting better. Again, who knows. The civilian Dominion Executive started burning through money on a myriad of international trips, with their spouses, ostensibly to support Canadian branches in foreign countries  . They have other problems that further exacerbate the situation. The Poppy Fund is not being used for what it was intended. The only way to make it work anymore is to burn it down and start again.


----------



## Kilted

Blackadder1916 said:


> Remembrance Sunday?  While I'm familiar with the UK's commemorative days (Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday), I've never heard of the term (or the practice of separate events) being used in Canada.  Can you provide examples of any communities that do so?


Most of the communities around me do it. (No, I'm not going to say where I am). I think my regiment was probably present for at least 12-15 Remembrance services. I personally did four parades myself. I know some individuals will have done 5 by the time this is over. We don't put cenotaph guards out for all of them, but for many of them. Two years before COVID we started sending out roaming cenotaph guards to hit all the small cenotaphs in our Regimental area who do not normally have services associated with them. COVID seems to have stopped that. Although, in 2020, the cenotaph guard would go out the day before the reduced services to have their pictures taken that would then be post on Remembrance Day.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

rmc_wannabe said:


> Fair point. Wasn't trying to beat my chest in the meeting, it was in reference to being asked "why aren't your mates coming down here too?" Which leads me to this:
> 
> Not at all. I feel you may have missed my point or that I should have elaborated further.
> 
> When asked how to bring up membership, I offered the suggestion that the branch work with the many lodger units on our base to develop in roads and see what and where we can provide to help those not only currently serving, but those who were on their way out. I even said I would do the leg work and reach out to my contacts at these units.
> 
> I was promptly informed that the Branch Liaison Officer was busy enough and that they had already handed flyers to the Base PAO for distribution. Still no membership. So they would wait for folks to come to them.
> 
> So I stopped offering suggestions. They were happy sticking with the status quo and not
> 
> Your personal experience, like mine, highlights the dichotomy of the RCL and its relationship with service folks. Some folk nare looking to get theirs and that's it. Some folks want to help in their community. Some folks just want a safe consumption site.


In my mind there is already tons of "help" [in various forms] for those still serving.  In my mind the legion is the place to go for those NOT serving anymore.

Lets see if I can walk into the MFRC in Pet and get any help, I'd probably get told the VAC rep comes to your Guelph Legion every Thursday.


EDIT:  or even quicker, and surely unlike decades ago, I can go online and find out on social media platforms.  Like this one....


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> In my mind there is already tons of "help" [in various forms] for those still serving.  In my mind the legion is the place to go for those NOT serving anymore.


Chicken and egg scenario. Those still serving are the folks that eventually won't be serving. Do you expect people to run from their release appointment to their nearest branch if they have had no prior exposure to the RCL apart from Remembrance Day?



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Lets see if I can walk into the MFRC in Pet and get any help, I'd probably get told the VAC rep comes to your Guelph Legion every Thursday.


I'm sure you can and will be treated with a far more welcoming, customer service minded, attitude than some have experienced with the RCL. 

I understand your position is pretty entrenched, so I think it's best we agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## Jarnhamar

rmc_wannabe said:


> I agree in principle, but practice is another thing all together.
> 
> I joined a legion. I paid dues. I attended meetings. I was treated as an outlier for the year I was a member because I was under 30, but had more operational experience than anyone on the executive.
> 
> "Oh its OK. You'll understand how things work sooner or later..." was the response I received.
> 
> So I let the membership lapse. I haven't returned. I have no desire to put effort into an organization that lacks the desire to change.
> 
> So yes, be part of the solution. Gotcha. But until there is a paradigm shift in practicing what they're promoting at the Branch level... count me out.



I think an old granny whose only "experience" is organizing bake sales, fundraisers, and keeping track of the canteen has more viable operational experience working in the Legion than you and I with our overseas tours.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Jarnhamar said:


> I think an old granny whose only "experience" is organizing bake sales, fundraisers, and keeping track of the canteen has more viable operational experience working in the Legion than you and I with our overseas tours.


And makes better date squares...


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Jarnhamar said:


> I think an old granny whose only "experience" is organizing bake sales, fundraisers, and keeping track of the canteen has more viable operational experience working in the Legion than you and I with our overseas tours.


Not denying that. I have an immense respect for individuals within the RCL who have given herculean efforts over the years to support that organization.

My operational experience was only in reference to being asked "You're one of the new Afghan Vets we're trying to attract, why aren't you and you buddies coming to the bridge tournament?"


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And makes better date squares...


You leave my baking skills out of this... I make a hell of a lemon square for the record 😜


----------



## Jarnhamar

rmc_wannabe said:


> Not denying that. I have an immense respect for individuals within the RCL who have given herculean efforts over the years to support that organization.
> 
> My operational experience was only in reference to being asked "You're one of the new Afghan Vets we're trying to attract, why aren't you and you buddies coming to the bridge tournament?"


100% hear you there my friend. Similar to mess functions, they want $$ and asses in seats.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

rmc_wannabe said:


> Dominion and Regional Commands may talk a good game, but individual branches are very much ruled and roosted by folks, some with zero connection to the military, who just want more folks to buy meat draw tickets and bring up declining bar sales.


It's the locals that pays the bills and sees the cash inflow and outflow. If you want the place to be successful, then you damm well better have someone paying attention to it. All 3 of our local legions gave about $2000 each a year to our Cadet program, which means together they give Cadets about $24,000 just to the combined Cadet programs. They also run the poppy drive, organize the Nov 11th cermony, paying part the costs, getting permits, etc. I don't know how much they do for veterans and I know they ain't perfect. But from someone who runs a Cadet program, often the Legions have been the difference that allowed the Cadet programs to survive. the Legions cater to the people that come through the doors, volunteer and do all of the extra stuff. Can they do better, sure. But any organization gets 90% done by 10% of the people, with 30% bitching about how they do it better and the rest keeping their mouth shut because they don't want or can't get involved.


----------



## Navy_Pete

I think the RCL itself will naturally die out with the Boomer generation, as that seems to be the bulk of the membership.

Can't complain about the local Legion putting on a good service, but still really strange to me that they had multiple public appeals for selling poppies locally but never got back to the Cadet corps literally across the street that was trying to volunteer, so guessing it was some kind of comms mixup and the right people never spoke.

Still, they are basically a legacy veterans organization, and shouldn't be consulted by the GoC for currently serving members or modern veterans. I don't think there is a single organization that is a good alternate, but there are probably a wide variety of veteran organizations that would be more appropriate to discuss things with. I think they have generally good intentions, but they can't be in touch with what people are going through now when they are so out of synch with anyone under 50.

Also, the military ombudsman should be a conduit for things impacting current members or newly released ones, but they really need to be independent of MND first.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Eaglelord17 said:


> Do you know their personal service histories? If not what is your point?



I'll take a stab at it;  the bar that defines the 'term' veteran in Canada is way too high and makes too easy to limbo under.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

brihard said:


> That’s a local branch trying to keep itself alive with local business sponsorships. I saw the same thing when I was living in a smaller town with a local branch run ceremony. Bob’s Auto Glass buys an over priced wreath, they get their name read out loud along with all the other donors. It’s unfortunate that that’s how a lot of ceremonies are going. Also a sad reality of trying to keep community service clubs going.



I was appauled listening to it..."on behalf of Slippy's Tire Center"....meanwhile, I was looking at the cenotaph wondering "when was the last time those names were read during your service".



brihard said:


> I’m not defending it, just sharing the observation.
> 
> The invitation for vets/members to come place poppies would be a really good suggestion. If limited during the ceremony to those individuals, it shouldn’t take long. I’ve seen it done before.



It would be a tangible signal of the Legion acknowledging all vets, retired and still serving....but let's hear more about Skippy's Tire Center...

The 'service' in my hometown is one of the worst I've ever attended.  It was hard to stay for the entire thing and I only did because I was there with Dad.  He thought it was equally as bad.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

MilEME09 said:


> I think the point is something we all have complained about. The the legion is no longer run by veterans for veterans in many regions. Instead it's people who's uncles etc... served and then make the decisions for the organization to serve vets. Is this a blanket statement that isn't 100% accurate? Sure but the legion is dying a slow death because it is out of touch with the modern vet/service member who are refusing to join because they are looked down upon and ostracized by the old guard in many legions.



And, the old guard are the local whose uniformed service might have amounted to a uniform with the Golden Arches on it in their teens and the Bingo Committee.

I loathe few org's in Canada like I do the Legion.


----------



## OldSolduer

rmc_wannabe said:


> My operational experience was only in reference to being asked "You're one of the new Afghan Vets we're trying to attract, why aren't you and you buddies coming to the bridge tournament?"


There is the problem - or at least part of it - right there. Young troops are not attracted by bridge tourneys nor darts nor euchre or pool. They aren't into meat draws. Nor do they want to sport blazers and grey slacks with a  floppy blue beret. That right there drives many of them away, yours truly included. 
The areas surrounding Winnipeg have the local legions. Stonewall comes to mind as it is part of that community and it is thriving. Other places not so much.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Most service clubs, like the RCL, are in decline....

Crumbling Communities: Declining Service Club Membership​
Declining membership rates, halting revenue and the sale of historic buildings.  The media’s focus on Remembrance Day has brought the struggling state of Royal Canadian Legion membership into the light once again.  Ontario Legion membership has declined almost 15% in the past 5 years and many previously vibrant branches have closed their doors or relocated to more affordable locations.

This decline in Legion membership can be at least partially attributed to the aging World War II and Korean War veterans.  Many older veterans have passing away and there simply is not the same number of new veterans.  However, veterans from recent wars are simply not flocking to their local Legion like their predecessors did.

This decrease in membership isn’t unique to the Legion.  Many service clubs such as the Lions Club, Orange Lodge, Elks, Kiwanis etc have all seen a similar decline.  Each of these service organizations has a unique history.  However, service club membership as a whole has tended to wax and wane based on political, economic and social conditions of the era.









						Crumbling Communities: Declining Service Club Membership
					

The development of service clubs in Canada and the current decline of membership in these once vibrant community organizations.




					activehistory.ca


----------



## dimsum

daftandbarmy said:


> However, veterans from recent wars are simply not flocking to their local Legion like their predecessors did.


Also, let's not forget that there are simply not as many recent vets, due to the smaller size of the present-day CAF.


----------



## brihard

The Legion is a brick and mortar entity. RCL activity is focused around individual physical branches. Younger veterans are likely to congregate over social media; you no longer have to go to a physical place to keep some cameraderie with whoever else shows up that happens to have served. Now they can do a lot of the same on Facebook or Instagram, or, hell, in online gaming groups (I know some vets who do their ‘buddy time’ and check ins by playing Call of Duty together).

The RCL does amazing work through the service officers and poppy fund. Unfortunately, local branches are super hit or miss, and we just don’t have the same huge veterans cohort that we used to. What we do have isn’t as reliant on an in-person watering hole.


----------



## kev994

This is not a new problem. My grandfather also despised the legion, apparently they weren’t interested in having Korean War vets around either. He served 35 years in the CAF and then another 20+ as a DND public servant.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Younger veterans are likely to congregate over social media;



Seems to be the way younger people congregate now. Even for dating.

My father didn't go to the Legion. But, travelled all over Canada for WW2 RCN Engine Room Articifer Appentice re-unions.
He joined in 1943 when he was 17, so maybe it reminded him of his youth.

I need "a brick and mortar entity". Especially when getting together with guys you have known for 50 years. Looking forward to our Christmas party next month.

I think the legions used to have Christmas parties. Not sure if they still do?


----------



## Halifax Tar

kev994 said:


> This is not a new problem. My grandfather also despised the legion, apparently they weren’t interested in having Korean War vets around either. He served 35 years in the CAF and then another 20+ as a DND public servant.



Let's also on forget the RCLs support for the New Veterans Charter when it came out in 2006. 

I think their public support for this new, at the time, legislation was seen as real stab in the back by many of the newer generation of Vets and service members.

Admittedly it's been a while, but I think that's accurate.


----------



## dapaterson

My local Legion, on a major thoroughfare with many restaurants and bars, opens its dank second floor walkup noon to six pm, five days a week.

The main floor has a chipped parquet floor and peeling paint, in a hall they intermittently rent out.

They have every opportunity to improve and reach out to the community and make money to support causes, but choose not to.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Eye In The Sky said:


> And, the old guard are the local whose uniformed service might have amounted to a uniform with the Golden Arches on it in their teens and the Bingo Committee.
> 
> I loathe few org's in Canada like I do the Legion.



Like you I despise the the wreath shmozzle.

We are lucky in Halifax in that there are lots of memorials. 

I would like to get some from our generation together and maybe we can go do our own thing on Nov 11th.  Just for us and our families.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

kev994 said:


> This is not a new problem. My grandfather also despised the legion, apparently they weren’t interested in having Korean War vets around either.


That is true.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Halifax Tar said:


> Like you I despise the the wreath shmozzle.
> 
> We are lucky in Halifax in that there are lots of memorials.
> 
> I would like to get some from our generation together and maybe we can go do our own thing on Nov 11th.  Just for us and our families.


So, do what everyone accuses the old Legion of doing, excluding some vets based on their age and when and where they served? That's the spirit!


----------



## Halifax Tar

Kat Stevens said:


> So, do what everyone accuses the old Legion of doing, excluding some vets based on their age and when and where they served? That's the spirit!



Well, we're having trouble being welcomed into the established organizations.  

So why not go out own way ?  And have our own gathering.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

brihard said:


> The Legion is a brick and mortar entity. RCL activity is focused around individual physical branches. Younger veterans are likely to congregate over social media; you no longer have to go to a physical place to keep some cameraderie with whoever else shows up that happens to have served. Now they can do a lot of the same on Facebook or Instagram, or, hell, in online gaming groups (I know some vets who do their ‘buddy time’ and check ins by playing Call of Duty together).
> 
> The RCL does amazing work through the service officers and poppy fund. Unfortunately, local branches are super hit or miss, and we just don’t have the same huge veterans cohort that we used to. What we do have isn’t as reliant on an in-person watering hole.


That “social media” congregation sounds alot like Army.ca…..


----------



## brihard

SeaKingTacco said:


> That “social media” congregation sounds alot like Army.ca…..


I suppose we’re one of many small venues. On Facebook you’ll find a few dozen fairly large groups (many oriented around specific branches, regiments, etc) and a whole bunch of smaller ones. Some of these groups sort of do some of the service work that traditional veterans groups have done, others provide specialized knowledge in certain things (e.g., there’s a fantastic group for supporting medical releases).

Cracking a beer or two, and hopping on Call of Duty for a couple hours with a handful of guys you deployed with could be, for many, their version of meeting at the Legion hall for card games.


----------



## dapaterson

brihard said:


> Cracking a beer or two, and hopping on Call of Duty for a couple hours with a handful of guys you deployed with could be, for many, their version of meeting at the Legion hall for card games.



That's absurd.

Where's the meat raffle?


----------



## RangerRay

dapaterson said:


> That's absurd.
> 
> Where's the meat raffle?


And what about the ladies?  Who’s in the back making the sandwiches?


----------



## dimsum

RangerRay said:


> And what about the ladies?  Who’s in the back making the sandwiches?


"Hmm, why are female veterans not wanting to join the Legion?"

- someone, probably


----------



## Kilted

dimsum said:


> "Hmm, why are female veterans not wanting to join the Legion?"
> 
> - someone, probably


Women can join as ordinary members, they don't have to be members of the LA.


----------



## quadrapiper

dapaterson said:


> My local Legion, on a major thoroughfare with many restaurants and bars, opens its dank second floor walkup noon to six pm, five days a week.
> 
> The main floor has a chipped parquet floor and peeling paint, in a hall they intermittently rent out.
> 
> They have every opportunity to improve and reach out to the community and make money to support causes, but choose not to.


Don't know the dynamic of that street, but event spaces in an entertainment district should be pretty hard to keep empty, especially for the sort of gig where you turn off most of the lights for most of the night, feed the crowd bar-grade liquor, and let the band or DJ rip.

Haven't been around them for a few years, but the Sooke Legion seems to be an outlier: the user base skewing older, but with, by observation, a healthy ongoing influx of CAF recently-retireds. Fairly regular and well-subscribed live music and other open-door events. That said, it's in an unusual location, just isolated enough not to be entirely outcompeted as a social venue by commercial entities, but close enough to Esquimalt to enjoy an outsize by modern standards pool of current and retired pers in its neighbourhood. Not sure how their charters work, but the RCL might want to look at shuttering everything that can't at least demonstrate ongoing appeal to 50 year old current or former members.


----------



## quadrapiper

Kilted said:


> Women can join as ordinary members, they don't have to be members of the LA.


I _hope _this has died out, but probably not: anecdotally, have heard of a great deal of friction between the LA crowd and servicewomen, especially as the latter began to retire at higher ranks and out of more traditionally male trades.


----------



## brihard

quadrapiper said:


> I _hope _this has died out, but probably not: anecdotally, have heard of a great deal of friction between the LA crowd and servicewomen, especially as the latter began to retire at higher ranks and out of more traditionally male trades.


I haven’t been active in a local branch for six years now (still a member at large), but the LA at my old branch before I moved was still going strong. It’s an anachronism I can’t really wrap my head around. I cannot speak for female vets, obviously. If some were to say that the existence of a ‘ladies auxiliary’ caused them concern or turned them off to the Legion, I’d easily believe them.


----------



## Grimey

quadrapiper said:


> Don't know the dynamic of that street, but event spaces in an entertainment district should be pretty hard to keep empty, especially for the sort of gig where you turn off most of the lights for most of the night, feed the crowd bar-grade liquor, and let the band or DJ rip.
> 
> Haven't been around them for a few years, but the Sooke Legion seems to be an outlier: the user base skewing older, but with, by observation, a healthy ongoing influx of CAF recently-retireds. Fairly regular and well-subscribed live music and other open-door events. That said, it's in an unusual location, just isolated enough not to be entirely outcompeted as a social venue by commercial entities, but close enough to Esquimalt to enjoy an outsize by modern standards pool of current and retired pers in its neighbourhood. Not sure how their charters work, but the RCL might want to look at shuttering everything that can't at least demonstrate ongoing appeal to 50 year old current or former members.


It’s easy when your competition is Buffy’s.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

And just renewed for two more years.....


----------



## Furniture

brihard said:


> Cracking a beer or two, and hopping on Call of Duty for a couple hours with a handful of guys you deployed with could be, for many, their version of meeting at the Legion hall for card games.


Thats my Saturday evening many weeks, though it's not guys I deployed with, just guys I met through gaming who happen to be ex-military(mostly USN).


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Furniture said:


> Thats my Saturday evening many weeks, though it's not guys I deployed with, just guys I met through gaming who happen to be ex-military(mostly USN).


Who can afford to go to the pub weekly these days.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Furniture said:


> Thats my Saturday evening many weeks, though it's not guys I deployed with, just guys I met through gaming who happen to be ex-military(mostly USN).


It's weird how much in common there is between the actual day to day experience of folks in military; the acronyms, language, uniforms etc may be different, but everyone else seems to be FUBARd in familiar ways.


----------



## dimsum

Navy_Pete said:


> It's weird how much in common there is between the actual day to day experience of folks in military; the acronyms, language, uniforms etc may be different, but everyone else seems to be FUBARd in familiar ways.


Absolutely.

Take a read of other military subreddits - we have 99% of the same complaints.  

Housing (or the state of it)
Pay not keeping up with inflation
No deployments (for Army)
Too many deployments (for Navy/Air Force)
Not enough medals
Crappy CoC
Not getting enough people 
Everyone wanting to leave
The Australian Military subreddit is a good one to check out - I recall about 8 or so years ago when there were a few Canadian articles about how we should be like them.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dimsum said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Take a read of other military subreddits - we have 99% of the same complaints.
> 
> Housing (or the state of it)
> Pay not keeping up with inflation
> No deployments (for Army)
> Too many deployments (for Navy/Air Force)
> *Not enough medals*
> Crappy CoC
> Not getting enough people
> Everyone wanting to leave
> The Australian Military subreddit is a good one to check out - I recall about 8 or so years ago when there were a few Canadian articles about how we should be like them.



Canadians are complaining about that ?


----------



## dimsum

Halifax Tar said:


> Canadians are complaining about that ?


The army folks posting on the CAF subreddit sure are.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dimsum said:


> The army folks posting on the CAF subreddit sure are.



Really ?  I mean we've lowered the medal requirements to a pretty low standard.  Some I think are just 14 days now.  I stand be corrected.

What do they propose?


----------



## dimsum

Halifax Tar said:


> Really ?  I mean we've lowered the medal requirements to a pretty low standard.  Some I think are just 14 days now.  I stand be corrected.
> 
> What do they propose?


Army folks aren't deploying.  Hence they aren't getting medals.

Or so they say.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dimsum said:


> Army folks aren't deploying.  Hence they aren't getting medals.
> 
> Or so they say.



Ah!  Gotcha.


----------



## Furniture

dimsum said:


> Army folks aren't deploying.  Hence they aren't getting medals.
> 
> Or so they say.


If they deploy it's like Afghanistan was, one medal/bar for multiple deployments. Once you have a SSM NATO there is nothing else for going back multiple times.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

dimsum said:


> Army folks aren't deploying.  Hence they aren't getting medals.
> 
> Or so they say.


I _think _its less that folks aren't deploying and more that Garrison life in a Brigade is soul sucking.

You're either bored out of your tree because there isn't much to do with the limited resources you have for ranges, trg, and PD; or

You're ramping up... again.... to start the R2HR cycle..... again...... to practice skills and TTPs you will not employ unless you're on a mission that calls for combat effects.

If I were a Combat Arms guy with no prospects of getting that sweet FSP/HA/RA and instead get to LARP for 4 months out of the year (if I'm lucky), I'd be upset about it, too.


----------



## kev994

rmc_wannabe said:


> I _think _its less that folks aren't deploying and more that Garrison life in a Brigade is soul sucking.
> 
> You're either bored out of your tree be ause there isn't mich to do with the limited resources you have for ranges, trg, and PD; or
> 
> You're ramping up... again.... to start the R2HR cycle..... again...... to practice skills and TTPs you will not employ unless you're on a mission that calls for combat effects.
> 
> If I were a Combat Arms guy with no prospects of getting that sweet FSP/HA/RA and instead get to LARP for 4 months out of the year (if I'm lucky), I'd be upset about it, too.


Chair Force is recruiting. Always operational.


----------



## dimsum

kev994 said:


> Chair Force is recruiting. Always operational.



Too many deployments (for Navy/Air Force)


----------



## Furniture

kev994 said:


> Chair Force is recruiting. Always operational.


"Operational" doesn't mean interesting or fulfilling, particularly when you're in a job that doesn't go anywhere, sitting in Cold Lake, Trenton, or Winnipeg...


----------



## Kat Stevens

Furniture said:


> "Operational" doesn't mean interesting or fulfilling, particularly when you're in a job that doesn't go anywhere, sitting in Cold Lake, Trenton, or Winnipeg...


Hey! What's wrong with Winni..... uhh, never mind.


----------



## dapaterson

Nothing wrong with Winnipeg that 40 gallon drums of DDT and four space heaters for every room can't mitigate.


----------



## RangerRay

dapaterson said:


> Nothing wrong with Winnipeg that 40 gallon drums of DDT and four space heaters for every room can't mitigate.


Don’t forget three air conditioners for your house. I have never lived somewhere so humid in the summer before. 🥵


----------



## kev994

dapaterson said:


> Nothing wrong with Winnipeg that 40 gallon drums of DDT and four space heaters for every room can't mitigate.


They use larvicide for the last ~10 years. There are no mosquitoes in Winnipeg.


----------



## Furniture

RangerRay said:


> Don’t forget three air conditioners for your house. I have never lived somewhere so humid in the summer before. 🥵


Sounds like you need some time in the NCR...


----------



## Weinie

Furniture said:


> Sounds like you need some time in the NCR...


Yup.


----------



## RangerRay

Furniture said:


> Sounds like you need some time in the NCR...


I'll pass, thanks!


----------



## dimsum

RangerRay said:


> I'll pass, thanks!


Fair.  More positions for folks who don't mind staff work.

Kind of like Nash Equilibrium, that.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Discount Ottawa Senator's tickets for Legion members.







						Legion
					






					offer.fevo.com


----------



## Navy_Pete

dimsum said:


> Fair.  More positions for folks who don't mind staff work.
> 
> Kind of like Nash Equilibrium, that.


There is a special place in my heart for policy weenies that volunteer for those jobs.

I don't mind staff work, but policy work in my personal 9th circle; I love folks that volunteer for them to take them out of circulation, and then try and stay friends with them to help prevent ivory tower policy that doesn't actually work for practical reasons (like it creates new work and we don't have people as it is).

Had to look up Nash Equilibrium though ; Nash equilibrium - Wikipedia


----------



## RangerRay

dimsum said:


> Fair.  More positions for folks who don't mind staff work.
> 
> Kind of like Nash Equilibrium, that.


Considering I have been out for a long time, that won’t be an option unless it’s for a holiday.  

Winnipeg is bad enough…


----------



## dimsum

RangerRay said:


> Considering I have been out for a long time, that won’t be an option unless it’s for a holiday.
> 
> Winnipeg is bad enough…


Worked in both.

I don't mind Winnipeg, but it's like picking nice parts out of a place that is generally "meh".  I wouldn't voluntarily move there if it wasn't for work.

I actually really like Ottawa as a city.


----------



## mariomike

dimsum said:


> Worked in both.
> 
> I don't mind Winnipeg, but it's like picking nice parts out of a place that is generally "meh".  I wouldn't voluntarily move there if it wasn't for work.



Drove through Winnipeg to visit my sister when she was posted and married in Manitoba. Beautiful province, when you leave the city, from what little I have seen of it. The people seemed more polite than what I was used to back home.  



> I actually really like Ottawa as a city.



Me too. Visited it many times, because it makes me proud and thankful to be a Canadian.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

dimsum said:


> Worked in both.
> 
> I don't mind Winnipeg, but it's like picking nice parts out of a place that is generally "meh".  I wouldn't voluntarily move there if it wasn't for work.


Winnipeg is like every bad neighborhood I have ever walked through decided to amalgamate and call itself a city of 750K. 


dimsum said:


> I actually really like Ottawa as a city.


Ottawa is essentially a city-sized Service Canada office: Everything shuts down at 5, people generally are waiting for a service they can probably get remotely, are miserable, or are waiting to go elsewhere to have fun.


----------



## dimsum

rmc_wannabe said:


> Ottawa is essentially a city-sized Service Canada office: Everything shuts down at 5, people generally are waiting for a service they can probably get remotely, are miserable, or are waiting to go elsewhere to have fun.


I'm not going to say Ottawa is like Montreal or Toronto for places to go out, but there are better areas than Byward or Sparks street.

Elgin, Somerset, or Wellington (Westboro) areas have some great places.  Also, generally just far enough away from the tourists too.


----------

