# Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships - Mess Dinners



## Michael OLeary (19 Feb 2006)

Johnny Canuck71 said:
			
		

> This is also why different ranks have different messes, *it's unprofessional for a subordinate to see his superior piss drunk *or to get piss drunk with him or her.



So, I guess those "good old days" of using soldiers to serve Mess Dinners in Officers and WOs & Sgts messes was just wrong, good thing those are gone.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2006)

Absolutely, it was wrong.  If the grownups egos need stroking that badly that they need a bunch of underlings serving them, perhaps the steward trade should be up gunned.  Soldiers are soldiers, not waiters and bar wenches.... this one could go in the pet peeve thread too... :threat:


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## Old Sweat (19 Feb 2006)

Kat,

Actually I made a few bucks from time to time working as a volunteer waiter at mess dinners in the officers and sergeants messes. The army messes were not run by stewards as we did not have that as a trade. At the time I was what I guess the gunners call a CP tech now. We were cautioned that what we saw stayed within the mess walls and we didn't have any problems with that. (For whatever it is worth, we also viewed our counterparts who worked full time in messes as wimps.)


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## Michael OLeary (19 Feb 2006)

No, it wasn't wrong. It was completly legitimate and accepted employment for decades.

But .... we evolved out of it, and for thr right reasons (which you have alluded to), just as we evolved out of a lot of "black & white", "right &  wrong" perceptions of what was appropriate or tacitly considered acceptable.  My point was; that despite six pages of discussion on Offr-NCO-NCM relationships that opened up a wide range of valid opinions and perspectives, a poster attemtipd to issue an implied "final word" that the strict approaches  of the "good old days" was the only acceptable approach - an approach that bears up under neither the practices of that period, nor modern day application to today forces  (as we have seen in this thread)


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## George Wallace (19 Feb 2006)

I found no problems with serving at Officer or Snr NCO Mess Dinners.  We actually had to fight to get the opportunity to serve at them and drink all night for free.  Then at the end of the evening the 'hosts' would all buy us a round of some 'good stuff'.  Why give that job to guys on 'punishment'?  It was as much a party for us as it was for the 'guests'.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2006)

And here's the reality of "volunteering" to serve at mess functions:

Tp WO (tp of 12 Cpls)- "There's a mixed dining in at the Officers Mess this Friday night.  The Sqn is required to provide 12 "volunteers", that means three from our troop."
Cpls-  "insert cricket chirping sound effect here"
Tp WO- "well, if I don't get my volunteers, you'll be voluntold"
Cpls-"more crickets, a tumbleweed drifts by"
Tp WO- "Okay, then, I'm thinking of a number,  Oh look, all the senior Cpls in the entire Sqn guessed wrong, sucks to be you, I guess.  See you at 1400 Friday for setup, shouldn't be out of there any later than, oh, 03:00.  Don't forget BET Friday morning, weapons draw at 07:00."


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## ZipperHead (19 Feb 2006)

I saw a few good aspects of serving mess dinners (free booze, when it was given out and/or allowed to be drank) but many more shitty aspects (being treated like a second class citizen by our "betters" in an effort to score points with the ladies; watching our "superiors" act like total morons, breaking things, puking everywhere, and then acting outraged when a NCM had a minor alcohol related incident; not being compensated in any form for the services rendered, because nobody knew enough to question "the system").

I am glad that soldier's aren't forced to carry out these duties anymore. If, and it's a big if, everything went by the books: free booze, compensation (in the form of cash or time off) given for the work, not being treated like crap, I would recommend it for a soldier if he/she volunteers (I volunteered to work my Tp Ldr's wedding at the officer's mess, and there was oodles of booze to be had, but the cook Sgt decreed: "If I can't drink [while working], the soldier's won't drink [while working]". That episode soured me from working them ever again. Plus the Sgt walked out the door with a 2-4 of OUR beer, bought by the officers.

A "tradition" that thankfully is behind us now, but it makes me wonder: why do we (Sr NCO's and officers) serve the men at the Men's Xmas Dinner, as it was always my impression that since they served us (at mess dinners) it was our turn to return the favour? I have heard people say that it is "soldier appreciation day". Bahhh!!!! I don't mind serving the old-timer Cpl's and MCpl's who served mess dinners back in the day, but the young ignorant pups who think it is their birthright to throw food and act like morons because that is the "tradition". Oh well, it's only one day out of the year, and we usually get way more beer than the soldiers (don't tell the RSM!!!)

Al


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## Pte_Martin (19 Feb 2006)

At our unit Cpls serve at officer's mess dinners, we volunteer to, It's a day pay and we get tips. It's fun and let's you get to know some of the officers better, I know that i can tell the difference between when to talk about civi stuff and act normal to an officer, and when to go military and treat them with respect. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a officer as a friend just you have to know when and where to act like friends and when to act as in the military. If that makes any sense


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## geo (19 Feb 2006)

RHFC said:
			
		

> At our unit Cpls serve at officer's mess dinners, we volunteer to, It's a day pay and we get tips. It's fun and let's you get to know some of the officers better, I know that i can tell the difference between when to talk about civi stuff and act normal to an officer, and when to go military and treat them with respect. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a officer as a friend just you have to know when and where to act like friends and when to act as in the military. If that makes any sense


RHFC.... hope your unit's mess is paying you guys "cash" and not making you sign a paysheet..... cause that's highly illegal.
During mess dinner - not sure when you'd get an oportunity to demonstrate "being friends" with any one officer..... xcept maybe refilling their wine glasses a little faster than everyone else (or providing them with their own private stash of wine - spare under the table).

When I was a Pte and Cpl, worked several mess dinners and Sr NCOs New Year's eve balls.... the cash was good, the bar steward took real good care of us and at the end of the night, once everything was cleaned up.... a couple of 40ozs (mix optional) beer and food..... 

As a Sgt, I supervised some Pte/Cpls who acted as wine stewards for the Officer's mess dinner. I made sure that they were not badgered, harrased or treated harshly. Their mess steward was an old crusty RQMS and frightened the crap out of the junior subbies "most" would never dare even think of stepping out of line.....


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## medicineman (20 Feb 2006)

Since I decided not to join the service as a steward, I chose not to volunteer at any of these functions.  Which usually led to me having to serve at SNCO lunches when the Career manglers or Branch CWO's were visiting.  Something I never really could say I enjoyed - to me it was an embuggerance.  Having said that, I have NO PROBLEMS serving at Xmas dinners; in fact I've liked the past 2 years in that regard (well the first one anyway, the second I pulled duty in PV so that someone could come in for the feast this last one - again no prob with that).

Thinking about Xmas dinners, I remember one Base Commander in Kingston who cancelled the Men's Dinner 2 years in a row due to budget cuts; of course there were huge piss ups at the Officers' Mess...

MM


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## geo (20 Feb 2006)

Cancell the troops Xmass dinner?
Budget cut?.... for shame!
Have had dinners deferred due to operational reasons - but never a budget cut.

Piss poor planning on the part of the Base commander is my evaluation


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## combat_medic (20 Feb 2006)

I know of several occasions in which Pte/Cpl types have been asked to serve at Officers/Sr NCOs mess functions. They were always paid an hourly wage, plus tips, and it always came out of their mess funds, not out of public funds.

Surely there is no regulation against this?


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## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2006)

I too am curious to know if there has been anything more restrictive promulgated recently.  My understanding is that people may voluntarily wait tables at a mess function in exchange for wages paid out of the receipts of the function.


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## medicineman (20 Feb 2006)

The B Comm didn't seem that big on troop morale - he was trying to keep the Base open for some reason (I was expecting to close it out - I left 7 years later).

MM


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## PViddy (20 Feb 2006)

Some of the dinners that RHFC may be referring to, and which i have been a guest are also $ 80 a ticket, $ 4 drink tickets maybe the pay was from the dinner revenue or mess funds.

cheers

PV


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## Sig_Des (20 Feb 2006)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> I know of several occasions in which Pte/Cpl types have been asked to serve at Officers/Sr NCOs mess functions. They were always paid an hourly wage, plus tips, and it always came out of their mess funds, not out of public funds.
> 
> Surely there is no regulation against this?



I know that at a Mess meeting, we looked at the possibility that member's of the mess could tend bar instead of paying for bartenders, and it was said that we can't..even if the member was SMART SERVE certified.

If someone, a Pte/Cpl type was to be serving at a mess function, would they be required to be SMART SERVE certified under the law?


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## Lou-Dog (20 Feb 2006)

That's a great question, does anyone know if the CF has to follow Provincial law in their messes? Is the CF and their members subject to the Liquor Licence Act??

 What a great way to get our young soldiers to dodge serving at Mess dinners, should they ever have to again, all they'd have to say is "Sorry Sergeant-Major, I don't have my Smart Serve card, and I wouldn't want the mess to get their Liquor Licence revoked.".

 I really like where this topic is going!!!


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## patt (20 Feb 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I know that at a Mess meeting, we looked at the possibility that member's of the mess could tend bar instead of paying for bartenders, and it was said that we can't..even if the member was SMART SERVE certified.
> 
> If someone, a Pte/Cpl type was to be serving at a mess function, would they be required to be SMART SERVE certified under the law?



im not quite sure but i know when i served mess dinners back in Borden they would take pte's from the school(s) to serve just the wine, they were under the care of a steward where he would instruct them on what to do and such.


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## Donut (20 Feb 2006)

I'm not sure we're actually governed by provincial legislation in this regard, but in BC it seems pretty widespread that the units follow it, regardless.  I've tended bar in several messes, all had provincially issued liquor licenses and when BC implemented Serving It Right the unit paid for several of us to get our credentials.

FWIW, I made quiet a few bucks serving for the Sr NCO and Offrs messes, I was always well compensated, treated well, and I can't say it made a big difference, discipline-wise, to watch a Pl WO or two lose their lunches, I'd seen Sr NCO's fall ill before, anyway.   :-X

DF


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## Aerobicrunner (21 Feb 2006)

All messes are obliged and expected to follow the provincial liquor license regulations.  These regulations state that minors (appropriate to whichever province you are in) shall not be served alcohol, that the bartenders shall be trained in Smartserve (or provincial equivalent), that the liquor is controlled (i.e. not watered down), that the pouring mechanisms are accurately pouring one ounce, and various other regulations that come into play when a provincial license is provided.  These licenses are to be displayed prominently in the bar.  Provincial inspectors are required to inspect the premises to ensure that the regulations stipulated in the license (and provincial liquor acts) are being followed.  As chance would dictate, a provincial liquor license inspector paid a surprise visit to our establishment last Thursday and inspected all three messes.  In addition to checking whether our establishment's three messes were following the rules, she also measured our pourers for accuracy, and asked questions concerning the operation of the messes.  As our messes have a Class C license (food served, minors allowed) she also asked what we do to prevent those minors from consuming alcoholic beverages.  

Be advised that it is illegal to use public funds (i.e. signing in for Class A pay) to compensate for the employment of servers, cooks, bartenders at mess dinners or like functions.  The mess and it's activities are non-public entities and prices charged for attendance at the mess dinner should be factored to include costs for these non-public contracted employees (for instance the JRM had a Mess Dinner on Sat night and had hired a catering company to provide the service).  Our unit is also inspected once a year by our higher headquarters to ensure that high risk fiscal activities such as non-public and public funds, supply holdings, etc, and the rules and regulations that go with those activities are not being violated, abused or ignored.  

A grey area would be the use of volunteers from a unit with the promise of time off as compensation.  Unit CO's and RSM's and maybe a few other individuals in a unit are given training in ethical behaviour.  Is the use of your human resources in this way ethically responsible?  I know what I think, but then each individual in this situation will have to wrestle with their own thoughts.


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## geo (21 Feb 2006)

Some reserve units will bring in their Subbies or Sgts for some prof dev prior to the mess dinner..... Prof Dev being a valid reason to bring people in to train.... easy day followed by a mess dinner.


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Feb 2006)

> All messes are obliged and expected to follow the provincial liquor license regulations.



I'm not certain that this is the case.  I seem to recall (dimly) that provincial liquor laws were not actually enforceable on federal (read DND) property.  DND chooses to follow provincial liquor regulations, including licensing, as a courtesy to each provincial government and because it makes for a uniform standard within the province, but has no legal obligation to do so. In practise, should a provincial liquor inspector not require consent from the Base Commander before entering the Defence Establishment to make an inspection?  Would his/her findings even be legally binding on the Crown? 
 The last mess that I was a part of the executive for (in Pembroke, On) had a photo copy of a license issued to the Base Commander of CFB Petawawa.  The one license was good for all messes and institutes within the CFB Petawawa area, I seem to recall.  There never seemed to be any real thought that a liquor inspector would "drop by" someday for an inspection.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't follow the Provincial Laws, but are we (DND) _Obligated to do so?_

I searched Dept Of Justice's website and couldn't find much of use, other than some general ideas that provinces do not have much, if any jurisdiction on Native Reserves- Reserves being creatures of the Federal Government.  That alone implies an answer...

The reason that I even all of this up is, It may well be a good idea for our Bar Staff to have "serve it right training", but is it a legally binding requirement?  Any lawyers out there that can set me straight?  I may have recalled this all incorrectly...


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## Pte_Martin (21 Feb 2006)

I heard that before that we have to follow Canadian Law (Federal) But the only reason we follow the provincial law is so we look good in the media eyes


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Feb 2006)

I know that I was only 17 [a long time ago mind you] when I was at Cornwallis and I was able to drink....


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Feb 2006)

http://www.smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/027-12_e.asp

CFAO 27-12 seems to provide a partial answer to my own rhetoric question- namely that CO's or Base Commanders must ensure the Bar Staff are "appropriately" trained.  Still can't find the licensing stuff...


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## Aerobicrunner (22 Feb 2006)

The Mess Administration Manual (A-AD-262-000/AG-000) available here:
http://otgmati000041.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/custom/cfpd/index_e.htm# 
states the following in Chapter 3, para 29:
"With the respect to the serving and consumption of intoxicants, the BComd shall ensure that:
a. federal, provincial and municipal laws are observed;
b.  credit sales are not permitted except where the accounting function is exclusively performed by personnel from non public sources, or in honour bars;
c.  current selling price lists are posted in a prominent place in the bar."


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## geo (22 Feb 2006)

AR...
Cos job to ensure the provincial regs are respected BUT.... doesn't say that provincial regulators are to be allowed access to the facilities.


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## SeaKingTacco (22 Feb 2006)

Also doesn't say anything about licensing...


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## geo (22 Feb 2006)

licencing is managed by area headquarters. Units are not required to have direct contact with the licencing agencies.
in LFQA reserve brigades they consolidate sales figures to remit sales tax from a central office.... (it ain't pretty)


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## Aerobicrunner (22 Feb 2006)

Well I guess we will have a difference of opinion in regards to how the sentence is structured and how each individual interprets the meaning.   When I check the good ole Canadian Oxford Dictionary and look up "respect" in terms of the context that the mess manual uses, it is described as _"1. reference, relation 2. heed or regard"_.  However, the sentence in the Mess Admin manual does not read as you have paraphased it but rather "... the BComd shall ensure that:  federal, provincial, and municipal laws are observed."  
Woe be thee for the BComd who did not follow the rules prescribed by the provincial licensing act with the excuse that he/she chose not to follow one rule or another proscribed in the act.  
The following is an excerpt from the Alberta Liquor Act:

Inspection of premises and facilities

103(1)  To ensure compliance with this Act, an inspector may enter and inspect, at any reasonable time,

                                 (a)    licensed premises and licensed facilities;

                                 (b)    unlicensed premises and unlicensed facilities where gaming activities have been, are or will be conducted;

                                 (c)    premises with respect to which a liquor licence has expired or been suspended or cancelled;

                                 (d)    a facility with respect to which a facility licence has expired or been suspended or cancelled;

                                 (e)    the offices of a common carrier doing business in Alberta that may contain records and documents relating to liquor stored or transported in Alberta.

(2)  An inspector may enter and inspect, at any reasonable time, premises or facilities described in an application for a licence to determine if the premises or facilities meet the requirements of this Act.

(3)  When acting under the authority of this section, an inspector must carry identification in the form established by the board and present it on request to the owner or occupant of the premises or facility being inspected.

(4)  In carrying out an inspection relating to liquor, a liquor licence or licensed premises, an inspector may

                                 (a)    take reasonable samples of liquor from the licensee or any person in the licensed premises,

                                 (b)    inspect, audit, examine and make copies of any records, documents, books of account and receipts relating to liquor, a liquor licence or licensed premises, or may temporarily remove any of them for those purposes,

                                 (c)    interview the licensee or agents of the licensee with regard to any of the records, documents, books of account and receipts,

                                 (d)    interview and request identification from any person who appears to be a minor who is found in the licensed premises, or a person who appears to be a minor who is found outside the licensed premises if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is contravening or has contravened this Act,

                                 (e)    interview and request identification from any person who appears to be intoxicated in licensed premises or who is found in the licensed premises after the sale and consumption of liquor have been required to cease under the regulations, or a person who is found outside the licensed premises if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is contravening or has contravened this Act, and

                                  (f)    seize identification from any person interviewed in accordance with this subsection if the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that the identification is false or has been altered.


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## Ed Gagnon (4 Mar 2006)

Hi folks,

In Petawawa we follow the provincial laws with respect to a liquor license as directed by Comd LFCA.  Over the past ten years we have really tightened up all the alcohol related activities taking place within the base.  All serveres are Smart Serve trained and we have a current liquor license.

Strictly speaking, a federal organization does not have to subjugate itself to a provincial organization.  In effect, the province cannot force the federal government to get a liquor license.  However. we do this out of curtousy to the provincial government.  It also keeps everyone in line in terms of following generally the same guidelines.  

As for the practice of using soldiers to serve at mess dinners, I did this on several occassions in the Militia and only remember it as a good experience.  The practice has been discontinued as we were using public resources (soldiers) to serve a non-public function as servers.  

Ed Gagnon
PSP Manager
CFB Petawawa


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## geo (5 Mar 2006)

Ed...
As long as you pay the staff fair wages for their service, from the Dinner's gate, then it is still 100% legal to use em.... They aren't permitted to work on the Gov't nickle is all.


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## orange.paint (5 Mar 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I know that I was only 17 [a long time ago mind you] when I was at Cornwallis and I was able to drink....



Not me.I was 17 in the rcd and recall many times where me and a few of my buddy's were instructed not to drink. : :
old enough to die not to drink.

I also recall during one squadron function in B sqn we had troopers acually get smart served to help out the one bar tender we had.It was a two day course I believe.


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