# Fat troops on the street....



## Infanteer (31 Mar 2004)

Well, I think it speaks alot for the woggish nature of our headquarters when Frank can pull this off.  We are in need of a major housecleaning.

Check the story  here.


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## Armymedic (31 Mar 2004)

We are a Garrison Army now....


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## kaspacanada (31 Mar 2004)

Apparently in some positions in the CF, there appears to be a problem with obeisity.  I find that embarrassing.  

A few notes however: the key phrase there for exercise during paid hours was ‘when time permits‘.  Now I am not excusing poor levels of physical fitness, but we are all aware of staffing problems, and mabey that has an impact on the ‘time permits‘ aspect. 

 In addition, I don‘t like some of the meal claims particularly for (whatever rank) Pitzul for four days of meals...that seems pretty ridiculous to me unless the cost of food there is way more than it is here.  

The mess dinner or formal event or whatever it was, which is what I imagine Gen. Henault had those 70 per person meals could be acceptable depending on the details of which we were not made aware of.

  It appears to me as if this article is targeted to show all this ridiculous waste in DND so they can further degrade military funding more than it is targeted against some of the ‘heavier‘ members of the CF.      

  Also, to be quite honest, when does a JAG officer(particularly the top brass) ever have to be active once they are done their training?  (I really don‘t know much about the job, but I can‘t imagine too many section attacks or ruck marches being undertaken by platoons of military lawyers)  I know I know...leadership begins at the top....


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## Infanteer (31 Mar 2004)

We‘re all soldiers first.  Like I said before, if you are not prepared, physically and mentally, to win the land battle, then your wasting space.


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## dano (31 Mar 2004)

This is quite something.


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## The_Falcon (31 Mar 2004)

We have had this discussion before.  My personal opinion and beliefs.  If you wear a uniform, any uniform wether it be military, police, EMS, Fire, heck even a security guard, YOU represent everyone else who wears that uniform.  Joe Civillian see‘s a fat@ss in uniform, and makes the asumption that we are all fat, lazy etc.  When I see someone in uniform, who is FAT, I feel embarassed for everyone else who wears that uniform, and has the self-respect, pride, and dignity to stay in reasonable shape.  

Now before I get villified by people, that you can be fit and appear overweight, for the 90% of our wide-bottomed, artery clogged brothers and sisters in the service, I doubt they could climb a set of stairs without have a cardiac arrest. 

We need to stop coddling our FATTIES in the army, get them doing PT, or get them out the door.


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## corporal-cam (31 Mar 2004)

It would be more impressive if the pictures weren‘t the same 2 people at different angles.


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## The_Falcon (31 Mar 2004)

Dude there are at 8 different people in those pics


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## Cplgeorge (31 Mar 2004)

i always see fat people in uniform taking the bus, or just walking on the streets. but when i look closer, all of them are either medics, clerks, or logistics. i noticed that overweight people in the reserves are usually in trades where they can still do their jobs properly without being in top physical shape. however, because the people cannot usually make the difference between trades, i think that every person in uniform has the responsibility to look professional, and represent the military in the best way possible. that includes clean uniforms, clean boots and good behaviour. i see people in uniform all the time in the bus, chewing gum, listening to their discman and banging their hands, or sitting down in a sloppy way with their buttons undone. it doesnt look too good.


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## corporal-cam (31 Mar 2004)

http://www.geocities.com/kessler369/2.jpg       http://www.geocities.com/kessler369/1.jpg   

The way I see it is 2 fat people and 2 could be worse people and 1 skinny person in there for no reason, I think some people have their standards too high.


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## Engineer Corporal (31 Mar 2004)

Thanks infanteer I was looking for that issue of frank. I agree with most of what was said here, I think anyone of us could name 5-10 ppl in our units that are out of shape in a bad way. Why is‘nt it enforced? I never hear my Sargeant Major trying to fix the problem. Noone is allowed to say anything cuz their too afraid because the fatty could say that it‘s harassment or something. That‘s why noone does anything about it.It‘s pretty disgusting, if you wear the uniform stay in shape!


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## Lajeunesse (31 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by The_Falcon:
> [qb] We have had this discussion before.  My personal opinion and beliefs.  If you wear a uniform, any uniform wether it be military, police, EMS, Fire, heck even a security guard, YOU represent everyone else who wears that uniform.  Joe Civillian see‘s a fat@ss in uniform, and makes the asumption that we are all fat, lazy etc.  When I see someone in uniform, who is FAT, I feel embarassed for everyone else who wears that uniform, and has the self-respect, pride, and dignity to stay in reasonable shape.
> 
> Now before I get villified by people, that you can be fit and appear overweight, for the 90% of our wide-bottomed, artery clogged brothers and sisters in the service, I doubt they could climb a set of stairs without have a cardiac arrest.
> ...


I totally agree here and thats how it works those "FATTIES" representing our Armed Forces are doing a good job of getting the wrong point across. This to me is a discrace to the Uniform, its bad enough half the canadian population is Fat we don‘t need ppl like this amoung our ranks. I don‘t know maybey if thier job is it to sit behind a desk and out of view then its a little all right but still they take pride in thier country, uniform, ect. They should definatly take pride and self-respect for themselves and us, I swear we‘re never gonna here the end of **** like this.


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## bubba (31 Mar 2004)

right off the bat it‘s frank‘s,they probally just went on a hunt for fat people in uniform.but hey gotta givem credit,they know were to go ndhfatq.next time sendem to pet for a 5miler with 3rcr.then give them a ruck run im up down 5fingers a couple of dozen times.they will take nice pictures after that.but seriously i think there should be mandetory pt test at least once a year for peaple in desk jobs,or bring back piggy parade.give it a nice pc name.but come on,get off the donuts


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## Playtime_805 (31 Mar 2004)

WELCOME TO THE NEW CANADIAN ARMED FORCES!!!
This new generation of soldiers are a bunch of baby‘s.  If they trained like they did in the past and we did‘t have this stupid human rights crap, then our army would be in tip top shape and once again be the best in the world.  
No questions asked!


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## Canadian Patriot (31 Mar 2004)

Its all about HONOUR, LOYALTY, RESPECT, and INTEGRITY. It seems like nobody these days have any of those qualities. I used to think that of just civvies, but it seems like alot of people in uniform have lost those qualities. I think we should adjust what is taught in the whole SHARPs, training, and make it a little less designed for wusses without those four qualities. Before someone harasses someone else, they just have to think about it. Do they deserve it? I know that when I screw up, I try to fix it right away, but if I screw up, and someone makes fun of me for it, and I get embarassed, I fix the mistake A LOT quicker, and it won‘t ever happen again. Why not have someone go around in their unit and seek out the fat people, and say "Hey fatty, get in shape." They‘ll get embarassed, and go out of their way not to let it happen again. Unless they‘re a wuss and go home and cry about it, but do we really need someone in the CF that gets that upset when someone calls them fatty?


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## Michael Dorosh (31 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by bubba:
> [qb] but seriously i think there should be mandetory pt test at least once a year for peaple in desk jobs,[/qb]


What makes you think PT once a year would make a difference?

So the guy fails the test.  So what?

I‘m as embarrassed as the rest of you by those pictures, but I think some of the comments have been on the money.  An overweight person can still look military if his uniform is squared away.

Any of you guys remember General Currie?  Commanded the Canadian Corps in World War One, and probably our best field general ever.  As I recall, he had two chins and was shaped like a pear.

Not that I‘m defending any of this, but you could draw a lot of lines and decide to chuck people out.  People who smoke should be thrown out since they are incurring self-inflicted ailments that will eventually kill or incapacitate them - usually at an older age when they are likely to be high in rank and have greater responsibilities than junior ranks/officers and thus harder to replace.  Alcoholics should also be thrown out, defined as anyone who drinks more than a couple of glasses of wine per day with meals.  Anyone who can‘t capitalize or punctuate simple sentences should also be released - the ability to communicate via the written word may mean the difference between life and death in certain instances.

So who would we have left?

I agree, that‘s a disgrace (the pictures) but PT test once a year isn‘t going to cut it.  You have to encourage a healthy lifestyle, and anyone who suggests getting rid of the overweight while leaving heavy drinkers and smokers to their own is a hypocrite.  Unless of course, what you look like really does matter more than what you‘re capable of doing.

Personally, I never eat at a restaurant with a skinny cook, but maybe that‘s just me.  If my vehicle tech has a few pounds extra, but the trucks run fine, more power to him.


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## Jungle (31 Mar 2004)

The problem is not the once-a-year testing, the problem is with follow-up after someone fails the test. It is very unpopular to take action, and a lot of work, so a lot of so-called Leaders just ignore the problem.
Test EVERY member of the CF every year with the 20-meter shuttle run (not the ineffective step-test) and issue admin action to those who fail, followed by remedial PT under the supervision of PSP staff, then get them retested 60 to 90 days later. All this during working hours...


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## Lajeunesse (31 Mar 2004)

I can already see whats this is going to turn into.


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## chrisf (31 Mar 2004)

I‘d like to point out for a moment, that there are a great many members of the CF who are *fat* but could quite easily pass the fitness test.


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## Spr.Earl (31 Mar 2004)

Yes those horizontally compromised people are disgusting.   

 But SHARP,Civil Rights let them get away with as their Superior‘s are afraid or not sure how to correct the problem as they may be brought up on harassment,prejudice charges etc.


As it state‘s in Q.R.& O.‘s(For get the Article) It‘s every member‘s responsibility for keeping fit.


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## y2kroachman (31 Mar 2004)

dont judge a person because they are fat, i had a mcpl(regular) in the cadets once and he was really really big, but he was strong as an ox and could pull his own weight more than enough, some people are fat by genetics so dont judge everyone


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## Infanteer (31 Mar 2004)

Don‘t mistake "big" with "fat".  I‘m a big guy, 6‘3 and 220 pounds (according to that ridiculous BMI chart recruiting uses I‘m overweight with health problems) but I‘ve never used it as an excuse.  I‘ve never fallen out and have usually picked up the load of weaker troops (re: "here, take the Carl G...")  If you doubt me, I‘d be happy to show your my UERs.

There are plenty of little, weak weasels in the Forces as well.  Targeting fat people isn‘t the issue, targeting people grossly out of shape (Which is probably 95% of fat people anyways) is what we are doing.  If your going to give these people the benefit of the doubt, I‘ll bet you money on their ability to do 13km in under 2 hours (Basic BFT requirement).


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## fleeingjam (31 Mar 2004)

Hey infrateer arent you a refrigirator technician?


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## rdschultz (31 Mar 2004)

BMI is a freaking joke.  I started weight training fairly heavily for a couple months, put on 10-15 pounds of muscle.  I‘m a relatively skinny dude, and after that training was done I was listed as overweight on all the BMI charts I checked (190lbs, 6‘).  Nobody with a sane mind would ever, and I mean ever, call me overweight.  It basically only applies to the average sedentary human being with no muscle mass to speak of.

corporal-cam:  The photos you list as ‘could be worse‘, I think, were basically just highlighting the fact that they purchasing or had purchased fast food.  With an implied causal relationship between fast food and overweightness.

y2k:  Using genetics as an excuse is a poor excuse.  Or blaming obesity on glandular problems.  Its true, it is a valid reason for some people, but its often overused as an excuse, and its not really the problem for a lot of the people who use it.  My genes make me a pretty skinny guy, and I have to work like **** to put muscle on.  I can still do it, and those people can get into good/better physical shape.  Genes don‘t make you shovel 4000 calories per meal into your mouth, nor do they "put butter in your coffee".


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## Infanteer (31 Mar 2004)

> Hey infrateer arent you a refrigirator technician?


That‘s what I mean.  Me and my fire-team partner have to break the fridge down for ruck-marches, and he is weak, so I end up carrying the entire fridge for 13km.  Dude, you should go Fridge Tech as well, we need another hardcore troop to haul the fridge with the grunts.


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## D-n-A (31 Mar 2004)

Man I wish I was hardcore enough to join the elite ranks of the fridge techs.


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## Spr.Earl (31 Mar 2004)

I was there but remustered,I don‘t like the cold.


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## John Long (31 Mar 2004)

I love both of you.


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## Playtime_805 (1 Apr 2004)

In regards to the BFT.  Almost anyone can do it.  It isn‘t very physical at all, but more of a mental test.  I am a trucker in the reserves and I admit I am not in the shape that I should be.  I don‘t like to run, mostly cause I can‘t go to far with out having a smoke or dying.  That being said, I did a BFT this past November with reg. force MP‘s and Base Ops.  I had no work up training at all (in fact I got drunk the night before).  Yet I finished it with time remaining and also ahead of some who had regular PT and lengthy work up training.  But at the same time I know that I could not pass an express test with the way I had approched the BFT.  this why the BFT is a metal test.

I do agree with the we are soldiers first, but we do have non physical jobs in the army, at the same time we are trying to present ourselves as the model citizen.  So this battle of physical fitness will go on and on until the liberals finnally destroy the armed forces all together.


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## spenco (1 Apr 2004)

have u guys ever heard the saying "dont judge a book by its cover?"  someone said 95% of fat people may be out of shape and lazy but dont be too quick to lump in the other 5% who have busted their @ss off to get in (and stay) in shape.


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## Spr.Earl (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by spenco:
> [qb] have u guys ever heard the saying "dont judge a book by its cover?"  someone said 95% of fat people may be fat and lazy but dont be too quick to lump in the other 5% who have busted their @ss off to get in (and stay) in shape. [/qb]


Er,give us that have been in awhile a break!
We know horizontaly comprimised people when we see them!
Those people in the photo‘s are REMF‘S!
Enough said!!


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## The_Falcon (1 Apr 2004)

Wow, I knew this thread was going to get explosive. A couple a things, to those who would use the genetics (or glandular, or magic fairy) excuse fine, but like someone else already pointed out that‘s does not excuse you from shoveling back those supersized artery cloging big macs.  Like I said before you can appear "fat", and still be fit, your problem is your genes don‘t want to get rid of the fat.  I also agree that the BFT is not the best measure of fitness.  The shuttle run is a much better indicator, or we could do what are friends to the south do, and go for a 3 mile run. The step test is a joke.  

Unfortunatly as the article clearly shows, appearance does mean something to most people, and it is the first you are judge by.  Their is no way around it, our brains are programmed to assess people by the way the look.  And as many of know most civillians know squat about the military.  They have no clue who is a combat trade, and who is a desk general, all they see is the uniform.

As a response to should we boot the smokers and drinkers.  In my unit anyway a lot people do not smoke or have quit smoking (I have never smoked and never intend to.). And as of well today April 1 all messess are completely smoke free (or supposed to anyways.). As for drinking, as my CSM and various other NCO‘s have told us, don‘t go and get completly smashed if you can not get up the next day and work (if there is work the next day).  You only have one body, so have a little respect and treat it right.


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## Slim (1 Apr 2004)

Nothing like strolling into the recruiting centre and seeing a bunch of lard-*** wogs and REMFs rolly-pollying around behind the counters...Makes me want to run out and join back up!

(Begins puking)


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2004)

Hey Falcon.  Good points, I was referring more to the degenerative long term effects of tobacco and alcholol consumption.  IN the case of alcohol, it is becoming apparent that limited consumption is actually good for you, if the French are to be believed, anyway.

We‘ve had the "fat" discussion before, and I think most of the posters have made very good points.  Jungle is right about administrative action and following up failures.  For the Reserves, who I presume those photos included, that isn‘t possible.  

The best comment was the one who said this will go on and on....indeed it will.  Individual responsibility is the issue, but unfortunately, that also gets traded off with individual commitments and priorities.  Working two jobs as many reservists do, hard to get motivated to ruck up every day at 0500 for personal PT...not an excuse, just the way it is, and will be for a long time, unless the measures Jungle talks about are looked at and applied in some manner to the Reserve world.


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## Playtime_805 (1 Apr 2004)

Well you no people do smoke and drink.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I know people who smoke and drink heavy...while at the sametime they have no problem running a marathon or doing regular PT.  We have a guy in my unit who is a EME WO, about 40 years old and could do what a 20yr old guy in the infantry can do or better.  He smokes a pack a day, drinks 6 beers a day and likes food with his salt and yet he is in better shape then half the combat arms soldiers.  I strongly disagree with that comment.


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## bossi (1 Apr 2004)

#1 Priority = "fit to fight".

If a soldier is no longer fit to fight, how can they remain a soldier ... (especially if they become a disgrace to the uniform ...)?

We can only hide so many aerodynamic routundo‘s in Area 51 with Elvis ... while all the skinny troops have to go on twice as many missions to compensate for the ineffective ones ...


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Playtime_805:
> [qb] Well you no people do smoke and drink.  There is nothing wrong with that.  I know people who smoke and drink heavy...while at the sametime they have no problem running a marathon or doing regular PT.  We have a guy in my unit who is a EME WO, about 40 years old and could do what a 20yr old guy in the infantry can do or better.  He smokes a pack a day, drinks 6 beers a day and likes food with his salt and yet he is in better shape then half the combat arms soldiers.  I strongly disagree with that comment. [/qb]


And when he is in the hospital with lung cancer at age 45, he is nothing but a burden to the health care system, and to his unit, who has to replace him.  Maybe he‘ll be one of the lucky ones that can pursue these vices to ripe old age.  Odds are he won‘t be.  Either way, why promote that lifestyle?  You may be able to convince me he‘s fit, you can‘t convince me he‘s healthier because of it.

Which is the whole point - do we want to get rid of fat people because of the way they look, or are there legitimate reasons.  And if those reasons are legitimate, how can they not be extended equally to people who over indulge in tobacco and alcohol as opposed to food?


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2004)

Thing is smoking and drinking increase the CHANCES of a negative health effect in the LONG term.

Fat people are almost UNIVERSALLY unable to carry out the job of a soldier NOW.

Two different problems.  One involves getting rid of nasty habits that may or may not affect ones ability, while the other involves getting rid of a nasty lifestyle that definately affects their ability to do the job now.


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## Playtime_805 (1 Apr 2004)

OK I see the fact that both alcohol and tobbaco are legal products and available just like food to a fat guy.  If any af thease are a problem they have to be addressed and a solution given before a ultimatum of get the F#$K out of the forces.


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## spenco (1 Apr 2004)

this topic has turned into a anti-fat people rant now, nothing more...while it is a problem that some people arent in good enough shape to be in the forces, how are out of shape fat people different then out of shape skinny people? should fat people be booted out just cause of their weight? how is that fair to the fat people who are in shape and do do a good job?  you guys judge way to quickly and harshly.


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## spenco (1 Apr 2004)

i love playing devils advocate.      :evil:


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## xenomfba (1 Apr 2004)

Mmm.. Cooper‘s Test. A guy in my unit scored a 5 on the Cooper‘s Test last time. Yeah. 5 out of 100. However, he‘s in admin coy and, since I still get my pay cheque and my leave passes signed, I assume he‘s doing his job without a problem. ****, throw some cadpat on Jabba the Hutt for all I care. As long as he can do his job.

Exactly how fit does someone in admin coy have to be? Fit to fight? So in admin, you have to be fit enough to lay on the ground beside the CP and fire a rifle? If I ever see clerks doing a section attack, or even firing their weapon, I‘m not doing my job. Or I‘m dead. One or the other. Who does a section attack in a defensive position anyway? It‘s not like we‘ve got Cpl Perk the Clerk heading out on any fighting patrols.

I don‘t know. Seems like people getting worked up over nothing.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb] Thing is smoking and drinking increase the CHANCES of a negative health effect in the LONG term.
> 
> Fat people are almost UNIVERSALLY unable to carry out the job of a soldier NOW.
> ...


Good answer!


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## Lajeunesse (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by spenco:
> [qb] this topic has turned into a anti-fat people rant now, nothing more...while it is a problem that some people arent in good enough shape to be in the forces, how are out of shape fat people different then out of shape skinny people? should fat people be booted out just cause of their weight? how is that fair to the fat people who are in shape and do do a good job?  you guys judge way to quickly and harshly. [/qb]


No, see you need to re-read what was posted, yes, there was some fat ppl bashing but only to get the point across that its harder for them to get the job done, they‘re an easier target..lol, they dont represent the whole military aspect very well..I could keep going but dont start getting all noble and **** just do yourself a favour and read before you post. Or maybey you need help understanding what we mean by what we post...or your fat and pissed about what was posted here. Whatever your problem is dont start stpid **** here.
Thanx
   :threat:


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## rdschultz (1 Apr 2004)

I think you guys are missing the point.  Like infanteer said, fat people are unable to perform their single most important duty.  Being a soldier.  If they are fat, and they are able to perform that duty, then by all means, let them do so.  Discriminating on size or weight isn‘t the issue, its discriminating on physical fitness.  It just so happens that size and weight is an indicator for fitness, like it or not.  There might be fat people who can perform capably, but that isn‘t usually the case.  If you‘ve got a 300 pound guy who can honestly perform the same duties  as a 200 pound guy who‘s in shape, by all means let him do it.  But I don‘t think you‘re going to find that.

If you want to talk about smokers or alcoholics, thats fine too.  If they‘re honestly not fit, and they can‘t perform, then I think most people would have the same problem.  But thats not what this is about.  Besides, a smoker who does his regular PT is still in relatively good shape (depending, of course).  A fat person obviously doesn‘t do their P .  The issue isn‘t just that they‘re fat, but that they don‘t do their PT.  

There is also the case to be made that they‘re REMF‘s and have no real reason to stay in shape.  But the logical extension of that gets in shaky territory.  If they don‘t need to stay in shape for combat, why train them for it at all?  Why not just do away with basic training for everybody but the combat arms, and save thousands of dollars each year.  Obviously, because thats not the way the military works, and thats not how it should work.


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## nULL (1 Apr 2004)

a fat (or thin) guy doing _their job_ on a *base* should be worth 15 fit guys in a gym somewhere.


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2004)

Well, if you guys feel that being a fat guy in an office supports winning the land battle, then go ahead.  Just know that you‘ll never have my support.  If your competant at your trade, but no good at being a soldier, your useless to me.

Look at Michael Dorosh.  Sure, he is in a rear-ech trade.  It is vital for the day-to-day running of the army.  However, I can think of multiple occasions where he has mentioned that he has filled in as a rifleman in a trench or worked at some other essential position in the company on exercise.
Now there is a something I can respect; competant tradesmen and a good soldier.


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## Tyler (1 Apr 2004)

What Infanteer said. ^

In the army everyone is a soldier first, that priority comes before their trade. At least I thought that was the whole point of the training system... 

If you cant soldier on with the rest of us, then get out. It doesn‘t matter if you do your trade well, you need to be able to fight. Rear echelon people need to be on their toes during a war because there are a whole lot of enemy SF types that have trained to go behind our front lines and screw with the supply system. Guerilla warfare isn‘t a whole lot different in that regard, just look at Iraq: how many supply convoys have been attacked or bombed? It isn‘t just the combat arms that are involved in the fighting. Everyone has to pull their own weight. (no pun intended)

Tyler


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## Slim (1 Apr 2004)

Infanteer, good on you for stating the obvious.

1. Everyone in the army is an infantryman first! And when the bad guys blow up the fat wog‘s truck and typewriter he suddenly can‘t do his job anymore because he is NOT physically fit enough to even run away!

Another point of contention with me is how the wogs repeatedly fail to qualify on even basic weapon skills ( although the military holds some of the blame there-but thats another story).

I was at the CNE this summer and, as usual, went to see what the army booth looked like or if there was anyone I knew there.

When I get there all I see is a HUGELY OVERWEIGHT person in cadpat standing there. Not a surprise that they weren‘t talking to anyone. I can see it now

"Come on down and join the world‘s fattest, most out-of-shape army!"

I remember the 20km recce runs around the Glenmore reseviour (full kit and weapon) with fond nostalgia.

It‘s gotta change.


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2004)

I‘ve said it before and I‘ll say it again.

In the Royal Marines, every Marine is a rifleman.  If you are not assigned to a specific trade (the list is on their website) then you are classified as general duties rifleman.  EVERY Marine has to go through the 30 week commando course, completeing the 30miler in less than 8 hours.

Why can‘t we strive for this?


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## Jungle (1 Apr 2004)

[qb]   





> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


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## bubba (1 Apr 2004)

hey jungle,infanteer,bossi and slim good posts,not everybody is pretty to watch,but if they can‘t do the job phisically fat or skinny then start the paper work. i seen lots skinny guys that could run like deer,but put a ruck on their back or do a 2x10 you‘d see some cryin.me i always prefered a hoss to a runner in the feild.a hoss aint pretty in spandex and nike airs,but in the feild he can soldier 24/7 and never QUITS himself or his buds..


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## Danjanou (1 Apr 2004)

Slim I think I know that recruiting Jabba at the CNE you speak of. Last summer I dragged the rugrats down there, thinking that they might have had the cool stuff for kids from the year before (Snowbirds cockpit, periscope mock up, LAVIII mockup etc) for them to play around with. Nada this time (budget cuts?). Anyway I ended up talking to the REMF and let it slip that I had been in and was actually thinking about coming back. 

It was pointed out that no problem, we're desperate but of course I'd have to pass a fitness test. That coming form this individual was hilarious. Hey my six pack abs may have grown to a full dozen over the years , but it ain't keg sized yet, and I can tell I was in a lot better shape then said individual and am what 15-20 years older.

Look I know it was Frank and they had an agenda in the article and probably spent a week tracking down the worst elephants at Disneyland on the Rideau for that reason, but it's still a valid issue. Public perception is important. More importantly there is the mission, something some PC bureaucrat at NDHQ has obviously forgotten.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb] Look at Michael Dorosh.  Sure, he is in a rear-ech trade.  It is vital for the day-to-day running of the army.  However, I can think of multiple occasions where he has mentioned that he has filled in as a rifleman in a trench or worked at some other essential position in the company on exercise.
> Now there is a something I can respect; competant tradesmen and a good soldier. [/qb]


I appreciate that.  I don‘t know about "good" or "essential positions" and it hasn‘t happened too often in my case so I don‘t want to seem like I‘m overinflating my own abilities. 

Setting up a RRB site on an ex last October I‘m not ashamed to say I made the two young privates with me carry the radios to the top of the hill!     I did of course haul my own ruck weapon and webbing.  Wouldn‘t have won a foot race to the top, though.  It certainly reinforced my wish that I had more time to devote to personal training.

But there have been many non-Infantry tradesmen in our unit in recent years that have always filled in where possible -  But the leadership of the companies also haven‘t tried to work anybody to death or evict people on principle.  Even in my trade, there have been a couple of lulus over the years as far as mental capacity, and we always gave them a fair shake.  As one of the CSMs at the time told me regarding one of them "he‘s a Highlander now", and that really said it all.

If one really wants to make excuses for those chunkies in the photos, I think what those recruiting types need is some form of regimental pride, not just pride in the uniform.  And in Ottawa, being in uniform probably isn‘t a big thing.  

In every field of endeavour there will be "just doing my job" types rather than those who seek out challenge and growth.  You can‘t legislate against it and you can‘t make them enjoy challenge or change.  I also don‘t think you can get rid of them in peacetime - especially  the new climate we have of shedding individual responsibility in favour of personal rights makes it impossible to do so even if we wanted.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Apr 2004)

I‘ve seen some really big guys and girls. They are as nice as can be but for whatever the reason (job, genetics, eating disorder, laziness) it looks very unprofessional and it‘s embarassing.

It‘s the canadian public that pays for  soldiers salary and equipment. You want the best equipment we can get to protect canadian interests right? Why wouldnt you want the best soldiers that you can get for what you pay for.  Soldiers are starting to make some good money. I‘m a soldier but i also pay taxes and i dont like the idea of paying someone money to sit on their butt when its int he job description that they keep themselves fit.


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## combat_medic (1 Apr 2004)

By all rights, my trade is a "rear ech" trade as well, and several people have commented on all the ‘fat medics‘ they‘ve seen wandering around (I‘m not going to dispute that; I‘ve seen them too). However, I can‘t even begin to count the number of times I‘ve been on patrol, or had to ruck march to an objective, or be on enemy force, or set up an OP, all while humping an additional 20 pounds of medical kit on top of my other kit. Every trade needs fitness.

If you‘re a driver/wrench turner - what if your vehicle breaks down and you need to ruck it out of the area?
If you‘re a clerk/comms/admin type - what if the CP is overrun?

As Infanteer stated, you have to be a soldier first. You could be the best medic in the world; you could have an MD in civilian life, but if you can‘t use a rifle and march to the objective, then you‘re useless. An artilleryman without a howtizer is an infantryman. A driver without a vehicle is an infantryman.... get the point? If we ALL can‘t do the job of a soldier, then we have no business impersonating one by wearing the uniform.


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## Teamfm (1 Apr 2004)

Hey I totally agree with all you guys, I use to be overweight, 18 years old, 5‘11, 225 lbs. An decided that I wanted to be the best soldier I could possibly be... and to be the best, you have to train like the best. So I started to run, run, run, push ups, sit ups, more running, ruck sack marches, hours and hours weightlifting and lots and lots of chin ups and now I am down to 190 lbs (still gonna lose 10 more pounds) and now I have ALOT of muscle and feel amazing! and I can honestly say that being overweight made everything I did harder (physical wise). Genetics? I use to use that excuss, then I actually got off my *** and did some PT. Now I can‘t stay still! It‘s all in your head, if you want to be in shape, you can get in shape!, just have to push yourself alittle. Not stay behind a desk and eat all day...


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by combat_medic:
> [qb] By all rights, my trade is a "rear ech" trade as well, and several people have commented on all the ‘fat medics‘ they‘ve seen wandering around (I‘m not going to dispute that; I‘ve seen them too). However, I can‘t even begin to count the number of times I‘ve been on patrol, or had to ruck march to an objective, or be on enemy force, or set up an OP, all while humping an additional 20 pounds of medical kit on top of my other kit. Every trade needs fitness.
> 
> If you‘re a driver/wrench turner - what if your vehicle breaks down and you need to ruck it out of the area?
> ...


Take a look at your Armouries right now. Immediately punt everyone on a med cat or who couldn‘t complete the fitness test and qualify on the rifle up to Level II.

Ask yourself who would be conducting and supporting the next brigade exercise.

Get the point?   

Ideally, of course the goal is to have everyone capable of performing as a rifleman as required.  What‘s your plan on implementing that?


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2004)

> Ideally, of course the goal is to have everyone capable of performing as a rifleman as required. What‘s your plan on implementing that?


1.  Set a minimum fitness standard composed of objective tests that would establish ones physical fitness level. (I‘ve always been partial to the APFT)

2.  Give EVERYONE notice of a CF wide assessment in 6 months time.

3.  On "Fitness Day", any failures will be given a remedial PT program (Regs after work, Res one to take home and fill in everyday); 3 months later they are retested.

4.  If failure occurs again, a final warning is given and a second retest occurs three months later.  Failure of the second retest results in a seperation.

One year to shape up or ship out.  I think it is reasonable.  The only problem is that NDHQ would probably empty out quit quick (wait a minute, is that a problem?)


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## combat_medic (1 Apr 2004)

Michael: I‘m not suggesting that people be punted right off for being on med cat, but what I WAS trying to get across is that being in a rear ech trade, or sitting behind a desk does not mean that you never have to be fit. I like the suggestion that Infanteer made above about having testing and remedial fitness training. Passing something as simple as the CF Express test should be the absolute bare minimum (when I was in the worst shape of my life I could still pass it), and if you can‘t do it in a year‘s time, with notice, I don‘t see any reason why you should still be soldiering.


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## Canadian Patriot (1 Apr 2004)

If you can‘t shape up in a year, you‘re just plain lazy, and who wants someone in any job, civvie or military, who is lazy?

Infanteer-thats a great idea you‘ve got going there


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## Jarnhamar (1 Apr 2004)

I think thats an amazing idea Infanteer, but, it would render our military very understrenght. Not saying that to be an ***, it‘s just the truth. If anything maybe a 3 or 4 year program would be more idealistic for the over all forces. Maybe the 1 year one could be implimented for the combat arms.

Little war story; One day during training i went into the units UMS to get some poison ivy treatment stuff. There were about 20 people + in this little UMS. I overheard them complaining about problems with their back, sore legs, pulled muscles. I found it kinda weird but didn‘t give it a second thought. The medics gave me the 3rd degree. "how are you sure its PI, so let me guess you need a chit? How the heck did you get PI"?  I wasn‘t really impressed but i put two and two together. The next day was a CO‘s run and i think people were looking for a way out.  Thats a hard mentality to overcome.


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2004)

> I think thats an amazing idea Infanteer, but, it would render our military very understrenght.


Is our military "as strength" if a significant portion of it are unable to accomplish basic soldier tasks?


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2004)

I must say infanteer, I like the idea also.  I think in good (reserve) units, they would pool their efforts and get PT programs going on their own time (like study groups when you‘re on a course).  Some units do that now, I am sure.  There was a running club in our unit, a mountaineering club, etc.  I would agree with your plan as being effective - as to whether or not it would end up gutting the military, who‘s to say.  

Bear in mind corporate memory is short in general and in the Canadian Army in particular, at times.  It may well be that they have been down this PT road before and found ideas like yours have not worked.  The BMI thing didn‘t last long.  Given your time in you would know better than I, naturally, what has been tried in the past and not.  No harm beating our gums about it.  For what it‘s worth, I like your idea. 

I‘d go a step further and introduce a "Canadian Forces diet" plan - voluntary, but tailored for the different components, age groups, etc. - if such a thing doesn‘t already exist.  I don‘t mean "diet" as in weight loss program, but a diet for all to follow, all the time.  I‘m particularly clueless when it comes to "carbs", "calories" and that good stuff and feel so bombarded by info "Atkins is good", "Atkins is bad" I‘d rather throw my hands up than try to sort it out for myself.


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## spenco (1 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Pte_Lajeunesse:
> [/qb]


No, see you need to re-read what was posted, yes, there was some fat ppl bashing but only to get the point across that its harder for them to get the job done, they‘re an easier target..lol, they dont represent the whole military aspect very well..I could keep going but dont start getting all noble and **** just do yourself a favour and read before you post. Or maybey you need help understanding what we mean by what we post...or your fat and pissed about what was posted here. Whatever your problem is dont start stpid **** here.
Thanx
    :threat:  [/QB][/QUOTE]


i didnt mean to get all noble, i was simply trying to show the other side of the story where representation seemed lacking, sorry if this pissed u off.


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## Slim (2 Apr 2004)

Infanteer

Good idea. They shouldimpliment it without any delay.

It is embarrassing to have an overweight CF. No doubt about it.

Slim


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## The_Falcon (2 Apr 2004)

I think we should adopt the same philosphy and ideas as the USMC.  Think about it, when was the last time you saw an overweight Marine. I saw this site 

www.usmc-mccs.org/SemperFit/fithlth/fithlth_main.asp 

"Annually, the Marine Corps separates an average of over 7,000 Marines because of physical disability or misconduct. 
Together, separations from abuse of alcohol and WEIGHT CONTROL average an additional 789 Marines per year." 

You hardly if ever see chunky Marines, because they firmly believe in the concept of rifleman first, anything else second. And if you can not perform physically as a rifle man, you are out the door.  All we do is pay lip service (if that is what you could call it with bmq, and sq training for other trades) to that ideal. If any one wants a good read on what the CF should be doing read the Marine Fitness manual available on the site I mentioned in this post.


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## John Nayduk (2 Apr 2004)

How about reinstating the "WARRIOR" program but without the stupid pins.  Either you pass or you don‘t get any courses or promotions until you do.


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by The_Falcon:
> [qb] I think we should adopt the same philosphy and ideas as the USMC.  Think about it, when was the last time you saw an overweight Marine. I saw this site
> 
> www.usmc-mccs.org/SemperFit/fithlth/fithlth_main.asp
> ...


Does that include the Marine reserves?


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## Staff (2 Apr 2004)

Another point to consider is the effect an overweight person has on his fire-team partner or section mates. Try hauling a 300 lb behemoth off the battlefield when he/she gets wounded (they make pretty good targets, you have to admit). 300 lbs of dead weight either in the firemans carry or dragged by the webbing wou;d be a daunting task even when noone is shooting at you.

Put your helmets on, war story follows;

In Valcatraz, there was a female supply tech who had to have her uniforms custom made because the forces did not make pants wide enough to accomodate her enormous posterior. They had to add a triangle of fabric of about 18 inches to a side. Apparently, this career Cpl had found an excuse for her absence at every BFT or express test throughout her career.


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## patrick666 (2 Apr 2004)

I think the whole "Food not bombs" things got way out of hand, IMO.


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## OLD SCHOOL (2 Apr 2004)

Scene: Chilliwack. Piper Richardson VC memorial dedication parade.

There were a few res. reg. in attendance. I noticed a young Sgt. from the Westies standing behind me and I was going to complement him on his turn out as he was the image of Canadian Infantry in portrait form. As I turned around, a member of another reg. waddled by in Cadpat. I swear on the graves of all those political leaders that destroyed our forces that this guy had to be 270 lbs if he was an ounce.

The Sgt. looked at him and then at me and then stared at the ground in embarassment. My shock was his shame. Fat people need love too but this guy was soft and big enough to have a stroke getting off the bus. Over the years I have seen many big people run 12 miles and grind it out when necessary and they have my respect for performing up to the standards set for them.

However, that was then and this is now and there is a definite buttery look to many members today.
Tough to hold a weapon with Krispy Kreme grease on your hands.

Message to front line troops...Don‘t get wounded and taken out of the line because your emergency replacement is a wheazing 270lbs. I have seen it but I don‘t believe it. 

I wonder what the rows of decorated veterans thought about all the pudgy cadpats?


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## The_Falcon (2 Apr 2004)

To Michael Dorosh, yes it includes the Marine reserves.  The regular Marines complete a semi-annual PT testing, while their reservists complete annual PT testing. Also, while they do use Height/Weight tables, they have min and max weights, they do take into account, that some people may be "overweight" (ie you have a lotta muscle, so you weigh more), as long as you are under 24% Bodyfat, and you topped the PT test you are ok. Also stated in thier manual, they want to maintain the warrior image, so they do care about looks.  After reading it I firmly believe we should be doing the same up here.


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2004)

Fat? Humm. I am 182cm tall, and weigh in just over 100kg. I pass my bi-annual PT tests for my age. I am 44 yrs old, and of solid build, but I could shave off about 10kg or so. Some stupid scale says at 182cm I am supposed to weigh about 72kg. I‘d look like an emaciated man if that was the case.

As for the USMC, I have seem many who are in my build, as I have seen many in other allied forces too. However I have never seen a large Asian soldier, and I have trained with many nations such as Malaysia, Singapore, and other regional Australasian forces. It must be the rice?

If a soldier passes his PT tests IAW his defence forces current standards, then he is considered fit, and I have no problems doing my job. At 44, I cna still cut it.

I would not consider myself a ‘waddler‘ by any means, as I have the build to compensate it.

The key is to pass the fitness test. if this cant be done, then go thru the actions to become more fit, as per the directives.

If a soldier cannot pass his PT test after all the hoops and jumps, then thats a ‘show cause‘ for discharge.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Pikache (2 Apr 2004)

Oh, there are big Oriental dudes. We just consider them freaks of genetics.


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## Ranger (2 Apr 2004)

You guys are horrible.....so waht if they‘re obese or whatever. They earned their uniforms and they earned the right to have you respect them. Maybe htey have a disease and can‘t help being overwieght. So if you see someone in uniform, and they are overweight than just be thankful it‘s not you, and have the decency to be respectful.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2004)

Q.Y. RANG, 2799 
That‘s your opinion, and your allowed to have it. However, if you aspire to the military after your finished with cadets, it may be one you want to rethink. Your argument is not very solid.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Apr 2004)

The military, unlike many civilian counter parts, is a job where your physical health directly effects your performance.


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## Spr.Earl (2 Apr 2004)

Heres the regs according to CFAO‘s.

 http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/050-01_e.asp 

Here‘s more.

 http://www.img.forces.gc.ca/CommRes/eligibility/Fitness_Guide_e.htm#4


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## Jason Bourne (4 Apr 2004)

My buddy was on his SLQ in Wainwright, he showed me pictures of his course..and I saw a bigger guy, had a belly, not what you could call "military material" if you saw him in civvies, however, I was told this guy could outrun, out hussle, out-any of them. Seems to me looking physically in shape might look good but there are some "sleepers" out there who can perform just as well. Just my 2 cents.


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## Caz (4 Apr 2004)

Just a question here, Infanteer:

I‘m not disagreeing that those who are not *fit* should not be let in.

I do wonder, though, where the money is going to come from to implement your PT reviews?  The logistics of it all - the infrastructure, the paperwork, the exemptions - cost a fortune.

Somehow I think that NDHQ will rather keep fuel in the Hornets than spend money on this.

As for the USMC...  well, they have a bigger budget than we do.

Sometimes you have to respond with less.  It would be nice if everyone in the CF was top shape (including my branch), but let‘s look for realistic solutions.

-R.


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## The_Falcon (4 Apr 2004)

Firstly thats the kind of thinking that eventually leads any kind of revamping of the Forces PT into the toilet. Secondly they would‘t fund something like this not because they need the money for something else. They wouldn‘t do it because their fat rear ends would not be able to pass the tests thats why. 

And to QY RANG 2799, we have already mentioned those who are overweight because of things like genetics et al (please THOROUGHLY read the whole topic).  However using the "genetics" excuse does not fly, when the counter staff at McDonalds know you by face, and all you eat are Big Macs and fries.  As for respecting them even though they are a walking heart attack.  For myself personally (and I suspect quite a few others around here), You can not respect someone, if they have no respect for themselves.


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## portcullisguy (4 Apr 2004)

For a good solution to the problem of getting people in the army to slim down (amongst other very relevant topics of interest to leadership amongst NCOs), read the book THREE METER ZONE by US Army Sgt-Maj Pendry.

I have discussed this book in the Book Reviews section.  The advice is great stuff.  At first it sounds a bit like learning how to suck eggs, a lot of it is "if the rules say this, then follow the rules," type stuff.  But for the most part, it is common sense advice that we could all use at some point or another.

Pendry hammers in the message that in the army, the mission comes first, and that the mission is accomplished through ensuring good morale, motivation and skill, regardless of the task.  Whether it‘s combat arms or administrative, support stuff, Pendry takes a no-nonsense approach to all aspects of leadership at the "other ranks" level.

I would offer snippets of passages, but I‘ve packed the book away in preparation for moving soon!

But honestly, check out the book.. everyone wearing green should read it.


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## Infanteer (5 Apr 2004)

> I do wonder, though, where the money is going to come from to implement your PT reviews? The logistics of it all - the infrastructure, the paperwork, the exemptions - cost a fortune.


The money would come from the savings made from releasing all those physically unable to do their job.


Seriously though, I would hope that everyone would shape up to meet the minimum required fitness standard (whatever it was set at).  Losing trained personal hurts.  I get paid to hump support weapons and fill up a trench, not to design policy, so I‘m in no place to give a good answer to your question.  I do know that I‘d rather spend money on ensuring the forces were fit to fight than see the cost in blood for our failure to do so.


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## donkon (5 Apr 2004)

Wow all i can say is : LOL  I‘m probably going to head to the FFL after i heal up from my Car accident. 

 Shouldn‘t we as Canadians be as proud as we can of our troops?? This has seriously disgusted me. How can we allow things such as this in our army. *laugh*

No offence to the brave and honourable soldiers and troops in the Canadian army. I think the overweight percentage is slim to none in CDN army, (hopefully)

I was once riding the TTC and i noticed a very and i mean very fat guy, he looked double the size of the people on the pictures. I asked him "Dude, WTF??" He didn‘t answer so that was our whole conversation. All i can think of is WHY??


P.S 

Sorry for going off topic a little but i am seriously disgusted by our army right now, no offence to the rest of you.


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## Michael Dorosh (5 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Don Kon:
> [qb] Wow all i can say is : LOL (embarrased to even think of joining the cdn army now) I‘m probably going to head to the French Foreign Legion after i heal up from my Car accident.
> 
> Also can anyone tell me why would Canada let the army be downsized so much?? Shouldn‘t we as Canadians be as proud as we can of our troops?? This is the second thing that seriously disgusted me and the first thing was the army‘s requirments : 19 push-ups?? Comon what the ****?? 6 pull-ups?? wtf i can do that with one finger. 19 situps - *laugh*
> ...


Well, thanks for doing all you can to help.  Your country and the Army appreciate it.  Enjoy your stay in the Legion.  If their quota of precocious snot-noses isn‘t filled, you ought to do well.


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## donkon (5 Apr 2004)

lol


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## Cplgeorge (6 Apr 2004)

don kon,
its true that the CF requirements are not set high. this is exactly what i was thinking when i first joined, although at the time, when i was a recruit, i could do only 20 or so push ups, and around 7 pull ups. however, after my infantry course, i could easily do 45 to 50 push ups, and over 12 pull ups. so then now when i think about it, i was only asked for the minimum requirements, because they knew that after my training i would be able to double my numbers. at this point, i can meet the requirements for the physical fitness test to join the navy seals, the SAS, and jtf2, when i look at the number of push ups, pull ups theyre asking for, im thinking " i can do that drunk", however does this mean that i could handle the seals or SAS training once i join? i dont think so. this is why a lot of people quit after they join. i remember on my infantry course only about 6 out of 10 finished the course. just because u can meet the requirements , it doesnt mean u will be able to take on the training easily. if you want i‘d be happy to take you with us on the 10 days field exercice we do every summer, im sure you‘ll be able to survive it, because u can do pull ups with one finger right?
PS u should be thinking on how to make ur own country‘s military improve and look better, instead of thinking of joining some foreign legion.


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## Ranger (6 Apr 2004)

I agree with Slim, I imagine there‘ll be a better result if you ahve a fit guy in the Army booth. Because when civilians walk by and see well an obese person stadning there, their whole opinion on the Army could change, nad we sure dont‘ want the civilians htinkign that you‘re all obese!


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## Ranger (6 Apr 2004)

My last reply was to what Slim said:
---------------------------------------
I was at the CNE this summer and, as usual, went to see what the army booth looked like or if there was anyone I knew there.

When I get there all I see is a HUGELY OVERWEIGHT person in cadpat standing there. Not a surprise that they weren‘t talking to anyone. I can see it now

"Come on down and join the world‘s fattest, most out-of-shape army!"
-----------------------------------------


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## MG34 (6 Apr 2004)

I find this topic to be pretty pointless and a waste of space,but the thing  you folks are missing is that mental toughness not physical fitness is what wins battles.I have lost count how many times I have seen super fit soldiers crash and burn during lengthy exercises or tough field problems.if you don‘t have it where it really counts,you will not accomplish the mission.take the Us Special forces in afghanistan and Iraq,they are not all supermen but they get the job done,hence their unofficial motto " Toughness not Fitness".


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## The_Falcon (6 Apr 2004)

True, but if you are not fit to fight, you are going to crash and burn before everybody else does.


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## MG34 (7 Apr 2004)

Yes but what exactly is "fit to fight"?That is a phrase that is impossible to qualify.


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## Armymedic (7 Apr 2004)

Here is a really good quote you may have heard me spout before:

The fittest soldier is not always the best, but the best soldier is always fit.    

need we say more...
Actually yes. 

You can‘t tell fitness by just looking at the person. Nor does the CF of CADPAT uniform help to hide the larger then a choir boys bum. I am one of those who look fat in uniform. At 5‘7 and 205, I am not exactly a picture of fitness, but anyone wanna try running with me. Our end tour Coopers test I did the 1.5 mile run in 9:30, 65 pu(and stopped cause thats as high as the points go), 50 su, 11 cu, and benched 110 kgs. Not bad for a 35 yo guy whose BMI is pushing 37.  :warstory:  

ALso,
In finding out how our merit board distributes points toward seating on the merit list I found under physical fitness the breakdown is like this....
completed BFT or exempt status on Express test...2   
completed express test.....1   
medically excused...0   
failed express test...-1  :rage:  

We (fellow Mcpl and Sgts) saw this and will now ensure nobody will "complete" the BFT without actually meeting the standard (like is done because it is required for deployment). We have vowed if you are 2:26.01+, or can‘t do the firemans carry (most women try to skip it) you‘re doing an express test. Its our little way to get those unfit people.  :evil:


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## donkon (10 Apr 2004)

Ok well so at the moment i can do 140 pressups,250 situps, so what your saying is when i join i will be able to do 280 pressups and 500 situps after bt? WOW if your saying i will double my strength that is more like it, i am joining for sure. 

*Runs to recruiting center*


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## rdschultz (10 Apr 2004)

I think he meant that they knew he could double HIS numbers, his numbers being the minimum requirement.

Also, you‘re only given one minute to do the situps, so if you can do 250 situps in one minute, you‘re some kind of superstar.


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## Recce41 (10 Apr 2004)

Don Kon
 OOOOOOO 140 PUs,OOOOOOO 250 SUs.I know a few Legionares. You better sort your a55 out now before you go. I was with them in Bosnia for 2 weeks. They don‘t stand for crap. You NCO can kick the crap out of you, your Cpl can put you on duty for fun etc etc. 
 But back to the Lard A55es. There are too many! I say PT them to death, and use them for pig food.


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## donkon (10 Apr 2004)

Dude i know how the legion is because my cousin was in the legion so you dont have to tell me ****, i know they kick your *** and they make you do pointless ****. Learned nothing new. Thanks for the pointless lesson though


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## donkon (10 Apr 2004)

ANyway im not here to argue just added my opinion about what i think about fat people in the CDN army. Although now i am thinking that the fat people are probably the ones doing office jobs or some other bs.


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## spenco (10 Apr 2004)

You guys are horrible.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Apr 2004)

Don Kon,
Pull the horns in there buck! recce41 was just having fun with your youthful boasting.     He also wanted to pass on some serious advice because you gave no previous indication of prior knowledge on the subject. I know a couple myself and your attitude will put you in the hurt locker with those guys.


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## portcullisguy (11 Apr 2004)

I don‘t know ANY FFL guys, and I can guarantee that I wouldn‘t cop that kind of attitude if I were planning on being one!

Don Kon, reel it in.  These guys are giving you good advice and they know what they are talking about.


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## Infanteer (11 Apr 2004)

My buddy had a classmate go attempt the FFL.  He was back in a couple weeks because he hit a corporal who was getting in his face.  The NCO‘s nearly beat him to death for doing that.


Also, MG34, your quite right; like I said on the first page of this thread, it is important not to mistake "big" with "fat".  However, I think the comments here are directed towards the obese people we have who stick it out in the forces.


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## DogOfWar (11 Apr 2004)

Good luck with the FFL. My military doesnt want you. Enjoy France. Don‘t come back. The legion doesnt make you tough. Your either tough when you go or you dont make it. 

As for fat soldiers i think they are a disgrace to the uniform and they make it harder for the rest of us to enjoy respect. If you have a medical condition get out. I dont want us to be in the same unit.

Oh and DOn- If I ever met you in real life I would beat the ever lovin snot out of you for "being ashamed" of my countries military.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Apr 2004)

Now, now Wetgrunt,
I just went through his recent posts and remember he‘s planning on joining the ...USMC+FFL+JTF2+SEALS...but he‘s really worried about piss tests     ..and he‘s not quite a "machine" yet but close.
TO KIDS WHO WISH TO POST...Read his posts and you can have an idea on how NOT to make friends and influence people on this forum.


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## DogOfWar (11 Apr 2004)

Well he is well on his way. In interests- he listed "special forces" and he enjoys posting in "Your favorite special forces team".

Soon he will be a laser guided space ninja


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## bossi (11 Apr 2004)

Yup - "fit to fight" is difficult to define ... until the poop hits the fan - then it becomes obvious (sometimes painfully so).

Personally, I use the yardstick of "War On Ice" - if somebody is fit enough to play a REAL game of hockey, it‘s a good starting point (and, a few years ago I published an article pointing out that hockey players were the fittest atheletes at the CF national championship level - wish I had a copy of it handy ... sigh ...).
Sure, marathon runners had better VO2 max, but no upper body strength - body builders have nice pecs and buns, but can they run ... ?  Bowlers?  Sheeyah, right ...
And, when it comes right down to it - what matters is when the gloves come off ...



> "Waste no time arguing what a good person should be. Be one."
> -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus
> .
> What can a soldier do who charges when out of breath?
> ...





> Is it really true that a seven-mile cross-country run is enforced upon all in this division, from generals to privates? ... It looks to me rather excessive.  A colonel or a general ought not to exhaust himself in trying to compete with young boys running across country seven miles at a time.  The duty of officers is no doubt to keep themselves fit, but still more to think of their men, and to take decisions affecting their safety and comfort.  Who is the general of this division, and does he run the seven miles himself?  If so, he may be more useful for football than for war.  Could Napoleon have run seven miles across country at Austerlitz?  Perhaps it was the other fellow he made run.  In my experience, based on many years‘ observation, officers with high athletic qualifications are not usually successful in the higher ranks.
> --Winston Churchill:  Note for the Secretary of State for War, 4 February 1944
> 
> A man who takes a lot of exercise rarely exercises his mind adequately.
> ...


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## chk2fung (11 Apr 2004)

In my short experience in the CF  I found some of toughest guys to be the most humble.  They know they are the toughest but don‘t need to tell everyone, they prove it.  This one gentleman was coming up from the ranks and going through BOTC.  He was the nicest guy, giving ppl advice on everything when they asked and was friends with everyone.  When he was in the ranks he taught some JTF-2 guys unarmed combat, I only learned this talking to his friend, he was a tank.  He never talked down to anyone even though he was the most physcially fit.  so if you‘re tough and are a jerk, ppl will think "so what", but if you‘re a down to earth guy and ppl can rely on you, then you‘ll be something. 

As for ppl who are out of shape, if you intend to be in the Combat Arms they would expect a higher standard of physical fitness.  If you are falling out of runs and aiming for the minimum physical standards then you really got to shape up or ship out.

Charles


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## bossi (11 Apr 2004)

Excellent point, Charles!

Stirling suggested there should be four tenets to the ethos of special forces:

- a classless society
- a sense of humour
- humility
- the relentless pursuit of excellence

"Cum tibi displiceat rerum fortuna tuarum 
Alterius specta, quo sis discrimine peior."
-- Cato


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## Jason Bourne (11 Apr 2004)

> Soon he will be a laser guided space ninja


lolol...good stuff.


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## Old Cent Hand (12 Apr 2004)

Fat Soldiers . I agree that a soldier must meet the minimum fitness requirements , for the army , he may appear "fat", but if he passes the BFT , or Express Test " , he‘s in. I know a supply tech., who did 23 years Reg Force , and is now in the Reserve , and his attitude is " I can do my job " , why do I have to be fit. He is telling me to retire from the Regs , join the the Reserves , where , I don‘t have to be fit.He also says they DO NOT have to do a fitness test. I DON‘T THINK SO.


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## Old Cent Hand (12 Apr 2004)

Further to my last , I have been fit all my career , I am not "Broken " ( Medically Unfit ), I can‘t stand "Wimps", and I can‘t stand Regs , or Reserves , who are in this job for easy money. If you are going to " Talk the Talk " , "Walk the Walk". And by the way , check , CFAO‘s , it‘s every soldiers , individual responsibility , to stay fit.


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## MJP (12 Apr 2004)

Well amusing as this topic has been don‘t you think its achieved STAT status?


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2004)

Yup


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## Pieman (12 Apr 2004)

> Soon he will be a laser guided space ninja


I found the ninja training camp:
Ninja Training 

Lol!     

Sorry, slightly off topic, but thought it was too funny.


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## Slim (12 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by MJP:
> [qb] Well amusing as this topic has been don‘t you think its achieved STAT status? [/qb]


Long ago...In fact, good that it was BEFORE the NINJA link was put up!


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## donkon (12 Apr 2004)

Ok,

Guys/Gals i take back everything i said about being ashamed about the Canadian army. I guess i shouldn‘t be judging a book by its cover. I still don‘t completely agree with overweight people being in the army. 

P.S

If you want to act tough please dont do it on the net because it is purely pathetic.


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## spenco (12 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Don Kon:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, I suggest you get a better argument, cause urs is BS, ur saying that everyone who is overweight shouldnt be in uniform regardless of the shape theyre in or how well they do their job.  And if you‘re not a soldier yourself then how the  *HEL L*  can you say that theyre nothing compared to "real" soldiers?  You‘re the kind of discriminating prick who should be booted out of the army, not the men who can do their job and do it well.


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## ChopperHead (6 Jul 2005)

Hi 
I have seen a bunch of pictures on the internet and on T.V showing the CF in uniform and there are these rather "large" guys now maybe Im wrong here but doesnt everybody have to meet the same fitness level no matter what they are doing IE. A dentist would have to be just as fit as the infantry
if that is so then how do these guys do it being so overweight and they are very young also like they look maybe 19. im just wondering because it just seems strange as of right now im overwheight and im workin on gettin in shape to join in a year or so and there is no way I could make it through basic right now and they are bigger then me.
If anyone could shed some light one this that would be great thanx.


Kyle.


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## The_Falcon (6 Jul 2005)

This issue has been discussed Ad Nuaseam before, in fact there was one very long thread on the subject.  look here http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1406.0.html


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## mover1 (6 Jul 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> This issue has been discussed Ad Nuaseam before, in fact there was one very long thread on the subject.   look here http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1406.0.html


Hatchet Man
CHECK YOUR FIRE. That post is over a year old and if someone wants to start a new and fresh thread on the subject then let him. Besides the person is only asking a question. Someone should take the time and answer properly instead of crapping all over them. 

Chopperhead
In answer to your question.Yes there are a lot of "fatties" out there but one explanation for it is that we are an older military and a lot of these guys are just showing the "milddle age spread" This doesn't mean that any of them can't or don't pass the PT tests. A lot do. And a few don't.

Those who don't are given often a second or third chance at passing the PT tests. If they fail after that. Then Adminisrative action is taken against them. (Relesae in some cases)


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## The_Falcon (6 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Hatchet Man
> CHECK YOUR FIRE. That post is over a year old and if someone wants to start a new and fresh thread on the subject then let him. Besides the person is only asking a question. Someone should take the time and answer properly instead of crapping all over them.



1) What the heck?   So the thread is old, many threads get resurrected from time to time.     Why start a new thread about topic that can be a very "heated" when there is already one. 2) I wasn't crapping on Chopperead this time, I simply stated that this topic has been brought up before.





Mod edit for content and relevance.


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## CREW ACTION (22 Jul 2005)

This is the result of a army with no standard's or should i say standards its not willing to enforce!!!!


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## FormerHorseGuard (22 Jul 2005)

i have a problem with some of the remarks made here .
I was R031, I could not run like shit for the longest time, could not do push ups, never could to them. I remusterd at the end of 031 training which I passed. 
I became a Pay  Clerk,  did my  CLC and passed it the PT  was a killer, but I learned to over come it. I can out route march anyone I know, I can walk for days non stop.  Just could never run far.  I learned to do both with some effort.

CRS training started when I came back to the HQ i was working at and I passed the 3.2k run with equipment in over 17 minutes, not bad timing at all , I made the gold run time limit.
Next year I went to the Guards and I did the run, CSS trade I was the fastest man in the Unit of the Full Time Staffers, run was just over 16 minutes, made gold standard again.  I stopped on my  run to take off my  bush cap to put my  beret so I could finish with the log badge showing. 

I was 6' 2 plus, weighed in at a grand total 155 pounds soaking wet with web grear, helmet and rifle. What made the change in my  running I got tired of being left behind and  having to run to catch up , watching the troops wait for me on break then when i got to the break point it was over because I had to keep up. You want to play  with the big dogs, you have to work at.  I am now 35 years old, weigh in at 185, i can still run 10 minute mile, no more 7 minute miles for me. 

Not all CSS trades are fat and out of shape. I was a skin and bones CSS trades who was out of shape. I could run and shoot and do the payrolll at the same time.

But I do not like it when I see over weight people on parade. When I was R031 will not say  the unit, but it was in Ottawa dstrict, there a female CSS not sure of her trade, Sgt Major, the former CO and new CO forbid her to be on parade, her combats  had 2 extra seams in the pants so she could fit in them.  walk across the parade the square and she would be winded, but what ever she did for the unit she was good at, just not allowed on the parade square to lead the HQ COY as the Sgt Major, a WO Cook trade did that. He was a skinny  cook. 

I think PT training should be just as important as drill practice and weapons. Mybe diet training would come in there somewhere.


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## casing (22 Jul 2005)

FHG,

Good on you for your work ethic.  However, and perhaps it's just me, but I'm really not sure what you are attempting to say with your post.  Having fatties in the forces is bad... good... acceptable...?  Having skinnie, out of shapers in the forces is bad... good... acceptable...?  All three depending upon the circumstances...?


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Jul 2005)

So is that Casing, as in shell...empty... or...sausage.

Sorry, just taking a mickey at you. I couldn't resist


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## Bartok5 (22 Jul 2005)

I've seen all shapes and sizes over the past 26 years.  My only experience-based criteria is this:  can you hump 90 lbs of fighting order and another 75 lbs of battle order at 10,000' AGL while remaining situationally aware?  If so, then you are "good to go" in my books, regardless of how you look in DEUs.  End of story.

Far be it from me to harp on the same old song, but I've never seen anyone on combat operations wearing silk running shorts, a "wicking" shirt, and $150 Nike running shoes.  Call me a dinosaur, but if you can hump the load and do the business then you are OK in my books - regardless of body-type.  Gazelles are great, and sometimes they can even carry a soldier's load for more than a day or two.  Sometimes.....

Just me thinking out loud.....


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## Kat Stevens (22 Jul 2005)

Some of us are thoroughbreds, some are carthorses, both have their uses. A thoroughbred can't pull a beer wagon and shouldn't be expected to. Conversely, speaking as a carthorse, I'll never win the Queens Plate.  But I always did my job, and, if I may say so, did it rather well.  I agree with all you biggie bashers, we should never have to go on parade and disgrace our uniform and our nation.  But don't forget, it's the big guys that build your bridges...

Kat


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## paracowboy (22 Jul 2005)

thoroughbred, quarterhorse, shetland pony, draft horse...they get too damn fat, they ain't worth nuthin' but glue and dog food. 
Should we all be Olympic athletes? Sure. 
Will we? No.
Should we be rampant with escapees from Jenny Craig's Fat Farm? No. 
Are we? Yes.
We have people so obese they can't fit in the turret of an APC. We have people who are winded walking across a parade square. I remember one dude who couldn't fit in the door of a pizza shop. He had to go through the delivery bay! Tell me how effective they are. There shouldn't even be waist sizes made that large in cbt pants (and what exactly are 'combat' pants, anyway? Extremely aggressive trousers?).

Same goes for skinny li'l grass-snakes that can't hump a ruck with spare ammo and a radio. Not effective.

We needs to be makin' folks adhere to the standards. Not to their couches.


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## Britney Spears (22 Jul 2005)

Funny story time. I recently witnessed a woman on an MG course who, honest to god, cannot keep up with the rest of the course when marching from the shacks to the mess hall. If the MG course had a PO check called "Carry the gun across the parade square 3x times without dying" she would have failed the course. There was not and she did not. Nor did she, in the ample downtime that is troops have on an MG course, engage in PT on her own time, EVER. I find this kind of phenomenon exasperating and I am furious that she is now, on paper, just as qualified as her course mates, most of whom went for runs and ruckmarches every morning on their own time and engaged in more PT again in the evening, as professional soldiers should. People like this are the reason why there is so much resistance to women in the combat arms, and unless we put in place realistic standards of physical fitness, this stuff just plain ain't going to work.


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## silentbutdeadly (22 Jul 2005)

lol paracowboy! hit the nail right om the freakin head! going back a few reply's....yes if he can carry a ruck he is good in my booksss?.....sorry but its what you do when you get there that means living and dyin!~ i see tons of other trades ruckin around the base, but hell there look like there going to die when there done and when your finish you should be able to fight or should i say peacekeep! haha :threat:


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## paracowboy (23 Jul 2005)

silentbutdeadly said:
			
		

> lol paracowboy! hit the nail right om the freakin head! going back a few reply's....yes if he can carry a ruck he is good in my booksss?.....sorry but its what you do when you get there that means living and dyin!~ i see tons of other trades ruckin around the base, but heck there look like there going to die when there done and when your finish you should be able to fight or should i say peacekeep! haha :threat:


stop helping me.


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## Young KH (23 Jul 2005)

Does anyone remember the addage of shoot for the center of the largest mass. For the smaller and faster guys, you should be happy to have someone larger and slower then you out there. Most of the enemy will shoot the big guy first for two reasons, easier to hit and because you don't want to go Hand to Hand with the heavy weights.


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## silentbutdeadly (23 Jul 2005)

Fine your on your own!


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## DVessey (23 Jul 2005)

I just read through this whole thread. Physical fitness is something my peers and I discuss on a regular basis, mainly due to the sea cadets being here at RMC during the summer. There are a definately a few 'waddlers' around...

I also think the following article from the Canadian Military Journal is quite applicable to the topic at hand:
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/Vol6/no1/12-ViewsOpinions1_e.asp

My favourite quote from that is 'Fitness is a leadership issue, and leadership is by example'.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> Does anyone remember the addage of shoot for the center of the largest mass.



"Aim for the centre of the visible mass"


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## Young KH (23 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> "Aim for the centre of the visible mass"



heheheheh Are you following me??


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> heheheheh Are you following me??



Yes, it's becoming a full time job correcting misinformation.


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## Recce41 (23 Jul 2005)

What pisses me off, is the soldier that is a sack of crap, Fat, Skinny,Tall,Short. This summer I have seen, soldiers, Reg and Res, that look like crap. A Snr NCO (Sgt) that 5hits on a yng soldier with dirty boots, but has more dirty on his uniform. Than the poor yng soldier who just screwed up. 
 A few weeks ago, I had seen it. Well, that Snr NCO payed for it.


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## armywoman (24 Jul 2005)

As someone who has battled my weight for about 15 years now I have to say that I have a lot of opinions on this. For the education of those who think that fatties should not be allowed in. I will give you some insight to this self proclaimed fattie. I am 5'3" so even a little weight is noticeable on me.

Firstly I am an intolerant fattie, I hate listening to others say that they have diseases, glandular problems, etc for their weight problems.   I personally eat when I am depressed which if I don't exercise enough causes me to gain weight..Pretty much textbook.   I don't make excuses for it like that should give me a pity exemption from pt, but I can and will admit truthfully what my problem is.

Having read all of the posts I have to say that there are some who have made some really harsh assumptions on all fatties. I can not speak for all, but I do personally do not eat Krispee Cremes, or any other type of pastry, except if not presented an option.   As well I very seldom eat junk food at all.

I recently failed my pt test..   An extremely depressing fact since it was the second time.   I have since lost 20 lbs but still find it is more emotional then physical.   In my quest for 'unfattiness' I have hired a personal trainer (army friend so he charged my half of what I would normally have paid)   Cut down on food intake although I find some times I am weak and go back to old habits.

I passed everything on the pt test except the run *&$%@!!!! 
I have never been a strong runner, as a matter of fact I normally joke that running should only be done when a crazy man with a knife is chasing you, or it is gift with purchase time at the Estee Lauder counter. Even as a kid I would join sports but sucked at the running part.

Despite this an officer at my unit is a runner with the CF, I approached her a month ago and told her quite plainly I hate running, but I have too and want to, can you help me.   She did.   She wrote me out a program that involves walking to start, stretching then every workout adding a couple of minutes to the jogging section.
I am doing that, paddling (kayaking and dragonboating), going for speed walks.   The workup training for the BFT is in Sept, I have started already, by hiking.

Just recently I found out from a friend that my chain of command had let slip the results of my pt test.   Some of the comments I found out about made even the rudest ones here look tame.
Sadly however the ones who have had the most to say, are HUGE themselves and they stopped doing all exercise as soon as the BFT was over, and don't start exercising until the next year.   
Apparently I am lazy and I do not want to even try the BFT. The medical officer put unfit BFT on my chit.   Something I argued against. Ever see a Cpl arguing with a CWO?   I did not want to be singled out. In the end he told me as soon as I strengthen up a bit he would change it. 
 Needless to say when the comments were flying around about me, my chain did not feel fit to mention that I was not allowed too. Really if you have nothing better do except bad mouth your troops at least give out accurate information.   I won't be taking a bullet for any of them.   That is hard for me to say but there you go.
Any who!   I am on remedial, doing my own running, going for speed walks/jogging with my section commander..who talks incessantly while doing push ups, about how he is not able to do very good push ups because they have bad wrists, (he can do 2 sometimes 3 okay pushups) he can not do as many situps as me, either. This is a person who looks like they are in shape too.
Yada yada!   bottom line for physical fitness in the military is the following
1. Reserves or regs pt should be mandatory everyday.   Never thought you would hear a fattie say that huh!   I have tried arguing that at my reserve unit, but it is a money issue.   'They are only here part time if they get injured there are too many hassles for the military, if they get hurt'   It has been a while since I got in, did we not have to sign something that explained the job and the expectations ???
2. Discipline by example.   There is nothing worse then a out of shape officer or SNCM preaching about pt.
3.Have people *qualified* to conduct pt, do so.   It also helps if they are able to do it as well.
4.Regardless of the time and money pt *should not ever * be cut from course curriculum.   It is too important to the job.   If the day has to be longer to get things done, or the course an extra week..so be it.
I have since convinced the CWO to remove unfit BFT... WOohoo, go me!!!.   I hate ruck marches, but if the job says you have to, I will.

Incidentally I have met guys and girls on my courses that are extremely fit but are the biggest wimps, whining about everything. Personally I would prefer to have someone heavy on my course, if they work their *** off to deserve to be there.
   Fat comes and goes, whiny ******* stays forever.


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## c4th (24 Jul 2005)

armywoman said:
			
		

> I passed everything on the pt test except the run *&$%@!!!!



What PT test are you talking about?   The two CF sanctioned PT tests are the express test, and the BFT.   It sounds to me as if an old 400 test is being conducted here.   If that is the case, I seem to remember that there was an advantageous scoring differential based of an age demarcation somewhere in the 30's.   



> Just recently I found out from a friend that my chain of command had let slip the results of my pt test.   Some of the comments I found out about made even the rudest ones here look tame.
> Sadly however the ones who have had the most to say, are HUGE themselves and they stopped doing all exercise as soon as the BFT was over, and don't start exercising until the next year.



Maybe some remedial leadership is in order here.



> 1. Reserves or regs pt should be mandatory everyday.   ...I have tried arguing that at my reserve unit, but it is a money issue.   'They are only here part time if they get injured there are too many hassles for the military, if they get hurt'   It has been a while since I got in, did we not have to sign something that explained the job and the expectations ???



Certainly anyone RegF or PRes Class B/C should be averaging PT every day where practical.   Class A sub-units do not typically have the budget or the time to mandate any type of PT that is likely to make any difference to an individual soldier.   CF98's are not that hard to fill out.   



> 4.Regardless of the time and money pt *should not ever * be cut from course curriculum.   It is too important to the job.   If the day has to be longer to get things done, or the course an extra week..so be it.



Time and money are the left and rights of arc.   If a course is long enough that a soldier's physical fitness can either be improved or a lack of physical training is likely to reduce a soldiers overall fitness level then, yes PT should be mandated.   On any course less than three weeks, if soldiers show up fit there is no reason to burn a weeks worth of course resources in an already limited training system.   Personally, I have usually derived more benefit from course content than course PT. Although, a refresher on points/marker drills is always amusing at 0530.   

PT is a discipline, and it's hard work.   Those I know who are old and fit, started out young and active, and generally have led a life of regular rigorous PT.   Reg or Res, this seems to include at least some PT outside of normal working hours for most people.   Physical bankruptcy is very hard to reverse, and does not get any easier with age.   

I don't think I would recommend getting too wrapped around the axle on big short-term goals unless you have a decent base to work with.   Shaving a minute off of a 2.4 km run is big. Going from 2 - 10 chin-ups is big.   It would be better to commit to a lifelong level of physical activity and improvement than possibly setting yourself up for failure on the next PT test.   20 years from now your last run time will matter little if you gave up in despair because some score sheet thinks you need to run a 5 or 6 minute km.


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## Springroll (24 Jul 2005)

armywoman said:
			
		

> Incidentally I have met guys and girls on my courses that are extremely fit but are the biggest wimps, whining about everything. Personally I would prefer to have someone heavy on my course, if they work their *** off to deserve to be there.
> Fat comes and goes, whiny ******* stays forever.



I am with you on that. I am one of those work their arse off and do the job types. Takes alot to get me whining...like gashing my foot open. I didn't even whine then, just grabbed a towel, wrapped it up and got hubby to take me to the ER...I can handle just about anything that is handed out to me without whining a peep.

I am a little differently structured as far as my body is concerned. I seem to hold my extra weight very well. I hit almost 200lbs and my doc did not believe her scale...I told her it all must be in my back end!! 

I would sooner serve with people who are over weight and can handle what is dealt out to them than to serve with people who whine about everything.


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## Young KH (24 Jul 2005)

Opinion with no facts.

For the people who don't want to serve with the over weight, smokers , or drinkers. May even want to extend that to Gays, short people, people with speech problems and even might want to cut the too skinny out. Be careful for what you wish because you might just get it and soon you can be standing on the front line all by yourself.

If you want to belong to a exclusive group of fit and shapely people join a fitness club.


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## c4th (24 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> Opinion with no facts.



right as usual



> For the people who don't want to serve with the over weight, smokers , or drinkers. May even want to extend that to Gays....



I think extending it to ex-RCR Cpl's circa 1965-1977 who are OTL is exclusive enough.


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## DogOfWar (24 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> Opinion with no facts.
> 
> For the people who don't want to serve with the over weight, smokers , or drinkers. May even want to extend that to Gays, short people, people with speech problems and even might want to cut the too skinny out. Be careful for what you wish because you might just get it and soon you can be standing on the front line all by yourself.
> 
> If you want to belong to a exclusive group of fit and shapely people join a fitness club.



You can lose weight and increase your physical prowress. You cant became ungay and tall.Thats a ridiculous leap in logic. Get fit or get out. I believe we should introduce the weight management system they have in the states. Overweight? Here is your new diet and workout routine. Dont feel like doing it? Heres the door and my boot. I dont care about this "im a 230 pound 5' nothing individual but I work hard and get the job done". Ive done alot of working out myself, Ive done a lot of PT with a lot of individuals and Ive heard alot of talk come from various 'roundies'  but Ive yet to see a person who is REALLY out of shape lead or even stay with the pack. I remember one example of a 5km run where a certain loud mouthed individual ran almost 200m before crying. She had assured everyone that just because she was fat didnt mean she was out of shape. 

Ive got all the time in the world for people who are trying to make that change! I myself was 320 pounds at 18 and fat as hell. I dropped to 215 and very fit- and so can anyone else! If you have a gland or thyroid problem get on meds and control your diet dont sit around eating and using it as an excuse. Its just plain old scientific fact that if your body is healthy it wont hold onto that weight. Im not trying to tell you to be a size 1 or have 32 inch waist (for the guys) but lets b realistic!


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## armywoman (24 Jul 2005)

c4th said:
			
		

> Certainly anyone RegF or PRes Class B/C should be averaging PT every day where practical.   Class A sub-units do not typically have the budget or the time to mandate any type of PT that is likely to make any difference to an individual soldier.   CF98's are not that hard to fill out.



I certainly agree. I think that once troops get in that you have to show them what is expected right away.   When they go to their units and see someone in their chain of command that has a belly so big that their buttons are about to pop.   Who always seem to disappear when you do training that involves hard work.   It sends a message that hey the army does not care.
It does not take too much during a 3 hour parade night to do one lap around the gym, one minute of pushups and sit ups.   It will take about half an hour away from the training night, but when you think of it, the pt aspect is as important to the job as learning how to fire a C7.   If you do not have the upper body strength to lift, or carry it.   It is a waste of time training them where to point it, if they can not get it pointed in the right direction.
Of course it is hard to police CLA res.   However CLB pers that is a different story.   Bottom line   You joined the army, make an honest effort to do what is expected.


> Time and money are the left and rights of arc.   If a course is long enough that a soldier's physical fitness can either be improved or a lack of physical training is likely to reduce a soldiers overall fitness level then, yes PT should be mandated.   On any course less than three weeks, if soldiers show up fit there is no reason to burn a weeks worth of course resources in an already limited training system.   Personally, I have usually derived more benefit from course content than course PT. Although, a refresher on points/marker drills is always amusing at 0530.


I agree again, that and on a course they try to bash as much info into your skull as they can.   Yet how many reservists do you know make pt a life choice and go to their course in shape.   Incidentally anything amusing at 0530 in the morning.


> PT is a discipline, and it's hard work.   Those I know who are old and fit, started out young and active, and generally have led a life of regular rigorous PT.   Reg or Res, this seems to include at least some PT outside of normal working hours for most people.   Physical bankruptcy is very hard to reverse, and does not get any easier with age.
> I don't think I would recommend getting too wrapped around the axle on big short-term goals unless you have a decent base to work with.   Shaving a minute off of a 2.4 km run is big. Going from 2 - 10 chin-ups is big.   It would be better to commit to a lifelong level of physical activity and improvement than possibly setting yourself up for failure on the next PT test.   20 years from now your last run time will matter little if you gave up in despair because some score sheet thinks you need to run a 5 or 6 minute km.


It most certainly is.   I however, have already decided to make this a life style change instead of a just when I have to pass a test kind of thing.   My mom died last year of a very sudden heart attack. I think that was more help then anything.   She was 54.   So I have decided to make it something permanent.   Sadly I am noticing now that it really does not take much.   I walk the 10 blocks to the grocery store.   I only get a couple of days food so that I have to walk down again.   I live in Vancouver..Hello!! Outdoor sports!! There is mountains to be climbed and oceans to be paddled.   
I have convinced a coworker to form and adventure racing team with me and are going to start training together when he gets back from summer tasking and we find one more male and female member for our team.
Of course now I find myself wondering how I have wasted away the last 15 years my life.

Hm..   The Battle of the Bulge


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## Britney Spears (24 Jul 2005)

> Yet how many reservists do you know make pt a life choice and go to their course in shape.



The ones who are worth anything in a fight do.

I must admit that all this doubletalk about BMI and big bones and whatever is rather incomprehensible to me. Being fit == better chance of survival on the battlefield. What MORE incentive do you need? Now fitness is all relative, no one expects clerks and the air force to be on the same level as JTF2 but how on earth can anyone be in the CF and NOT want to improve their physical fitness every day ("make PT a lifestlye")??  The value systems of some people just baffle me......


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## 48Highlander (24 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> The ones who are worth anything in a fight do.
> 
> I must admit that all this doubletalk about BMI and big bones and whatever is rather incomprehensible to me. Being fit == better chance of survival on the battlefield. What MORE incentive do you need? Now fitness is all relative, no one expects clerks and the air force to be on the same level as JTF2 but how on earth can anyone be in the CF and NOT want to improve their physical fitness every day ("make PT a lifestlye")??   The value systems of some people just baffle me......



What's with all this warlike talk.  We're peacekeepers, we'll never see a battlefield!  It doesn't take much fitness to distribute IMP's and water.


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## DogOfWar (24 Jul 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> What's with all this warlike talk.   We're peacekeepers, we'll never see a battlefield!   It doesn't take much fitness to distribute IMP's and water.



you are right we forgot were peacekeeps, lets get cadpat wheelchairs for deploying roundies.


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## Britney Spears (24 Jul 2005)

Heh, good point. How about "Being fit == Better chance of surviving on the battlefield, even if you're not actually engaged in the battle and were just minding your own business handing out IMPs?" Surely an appeal to one's sense of self preservation must have some effect? I suppose we can leave the more advanced "Being fit == better chance of completing the mission" aspect to just the cbt arms....


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## Jarnhamar (24 Jul 2005)

The Canadian Forces give people a lot of ways out of staying fit. ESPECIALLY the reserves.

It's all together possible for soldiers to show up for summer taskings with "no PT" chits.


What the reserves (as a component) needs to do to make themselves 200% more effective cost and man power wise IS fire soldiers from summer taskings who can't perform their job.   Don't keep them around, send them home. If they get paid or not should be up to the reserve regiment. A reservists doesn't have to be the be all end all of physical fitness but they should be able to perform their job. Their fitness shouldn't make them ineffective.

Now I know some soldiers get hurt while on tasking and upon being sent home retain employment at their unit. Thats great. It's happened to me. I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about the soldiers who show up for tasking INJURED.   
Oh i cant drive vehicles because I have a bad back.   Hey dummy, you applied for a DRIVER TASKING how the hell can you not drive? (Or guys applying for driver taskings with no 404s - soldiers applying for demo/enemy force taskings who have chits saying "no patrolling, no field work")
I'm not sure who's more to blame, the soldier for going on these taskings or the reserve regiment who sends people away without checking the members suitability.

This whole "We'll find work for them somewhere" attitude doesn't work because then you have 30 soldiers who aren't qualified to do anything lounging around picking up sticks on the front lawns of buildings meanwhile the guys who are qualified for these jobs end up doing 4 jobs at once.

If a reseve soldier gets seriously injured while on tasking send them home and take care of them.
If a reserve soldier gets a little owie but doesn't think they can do PT for the rest of the summer (But has NO problem going to the mess and bar every night) send them to medical experts and figure out whats wrong. If they are found to be malingering CHARGE them. Make an example out of them.
If a reserve soldier shows up for a tasking that they are unable to perform, put them back on a bus and send them home.

Start doing that and the quality of reserve soldiers that the regular force are augmented by will increase 200%.

How does this tie in with PT?
If you look at all the soldiers with no PT chits or a bunch of injuries 99% of them are not the guys and girls who are obviously PT orientated.


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## karl28 (24 Jul 2005)

Being overweight is a serious health risk to any individual I don't think any one would disagree   . IF I was in the military and I am not and even if I was good at my job I would still want to be in the best physical shape for a couple of reason 1)   part of being in the military is being able to represent your country and I would want to look my best so that way I would act the part and look the part I am not saying that you have to be a muscle bond hunk but you should be in good enough shape that way you can help pull your own weight. 2) in todays world Peace keeping can be just as dangerous as a combat environment at least that what you seem to here on the news and I wouldn't want to get killed because I couldn't do my job quick enough .    I hope that   no one will be offended by my comments just my two cents and I hope that over weight troops can get access to the programs that they need so that way they can get back into shape . I know it hard I am getting back into shape my self I go the gym 6 days a week its early I have only been going for a week but I think that it will be worth it in the long run .   Once again I stress that this is just my two cents worth .


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## Britney Spears (24 Jul 2005)

> I hope that over weight troops can get access to the programs that they need so that way they can get back into shape .



They already do. Everyone(army) is issued a rucksack and a pair of boots when they first get in. The rest is up to the individual soldier.


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## armywoman (24 Jul 2005)

I find that it is the ones that don't want to make an effort that are a problem.  Those of us who are in, know the types. GMT (or whatever is it called now) would not be the same without the ones that fall behind, the ones that run ahead of anyone else, but can not learn a drill to save their life.  Or can not tell the difference between left and right.  The ones that think the are hot @(#$, etc.

The army I am finding does have alot of help, it is a little harder here in the west where we do not have much of a base left, access to PSP staff is hard to come by.  There is help though.  Luckily the CWO at the HCC here is top notch!!  Good Man!

Now BMI I do not follow at all. I read an article in an magazine about 5 years ago.  It was on the BMI and the Canadian Olympic Rowing Team.  Apparently when some changes were made to the system, the whole team is now considered overweight.  All because of the BMI.  I think that someone who can do all that they are required to do, and do their job.  If they do not fit a cookie cutter then that is okay.
Last week after admitting to the CWO that I was becoming frustrated that I am not losing weight fast enough he said to me.  Soldiers don't come in one size and shape.  Smart man, unfortunately when I did my GMT I lost 78lbs in 6 weeks!   Since then I don't find it acceptable when someone tells me it takes time.   I once considered voluntarily going on GMT again, I probably would have been sent to a psychiatrist but hey it was the best workout program I had ever been on.
I do agree that somethings needs to be done.  If they feel personnel aren't up to snuff they are tested, provided access to the programs are given 6 months to show changes.  If they do not they are given the choice in or out.
Given the shortage of the personnel, and the bleeding hearts that will cry that their human rights and dignity is being ignored.  There has to be a major change.
I also think that everyone that goes on courses, etc has to pass the pt test.  Stop wasting valuable training funds on people who are useless or out of shape, just because you are worried about getting a complaint made against you.


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Jul 2005)

The BMI is a joke. It was designed by an insurance adjuster/ company in order to increase premiums. Now it's taken as gospel, and if most normal people hit their BMI, they're probably more unhealthy than they think. Mine calls for 165 lbs, I haven't been that since I was 15. I came out of basic at 185, after gaining weight there and 190 while on the tanks.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Jul 2005)

According to the BMI me and my 260 lbs are already dead..........


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## DogOfWar (24 Jul 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> According to the BMI me and my 260 lbs are already dead..........



My 260 pounds too!LOL.....I cant wait to figure my BMI out next year when Im 290 LOL. Me and the guys at the gym check our BMIs as a joke. 

"Ahh Im only 35 on the BMI. Im aiming for 45!"


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## Torlyn (24 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The BMI is a joke. It was designed by an insurance adjuster/ company in order to increase premiums. Now it's taken as gospel, and if most normal people hit their BMI, they're probably more unhealthy than they think. Mine calls for 165 lbs, I haven't been that since I was 15. I came out of basic at 185, after gaining weight there and 190 while on the tanks.



I'll second that...  I'm 6'4, 210lbs, and I'm in the yellow for being overweight...  To anyone who's seen me, that's enough to make you barf with laughter...  

T


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## Good2Golf (24 Jul 2005)

BMI, aside from being nothing more than a questionable guideline, really loses it for taller people...people still think of my 195 and 6'2" as skinny and yet I am "overweight" occording to my 26 BMI... :

Duey


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## SeanPaul_031 (24 Jul 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> We're all soldiers first.   Like I said before, if you are not prepared, physically and mentally, to win the land battle, then your wasting space.



Agreed. 
Gluttony is a sin


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## FITSUMO (25 Jul 2005)

being what most of you call a "Fattie", I feel that I cannot bite my words any longer.  yep,  round in the middle( like some farmers) but can run 5k in 26 mins, 10k in just under an hour( not great but not bad either) can do the 13k with 90lbs on my back in less then the required time no problems( do it every sunday, after a 2 hour road bike), and I eat 2200 cals a day, I weigh and measure my food.  When I was in the 031 before( decade ago) my PT sucked, yet in the field, I never held anyone back, always carried alot of S&^%$ for the section.  
I have a mate that used to bug my a** for being a fat &^%$, the day he got stuck under his car and I tilted it enough for him to get out from under it, he stopped.
When training I have more drive than a Pitbull after fresh meat.

So would I fall into the "glutton" and lazy category.

sorry for the rant but I get uppy if I don't have my doguts.

On a serious note, I made an assumption, that all the "fatties" in green, were like me, working hard at improving.  Am I being nieve in thinking this way.

respect
FITSUMO


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## DBA (25 Jul 2005)

To me the ability to do the job is more important than how somebody looks physically. The anti-fat attitude is pretty mean spirited a lot of the time and once a individual gets 'out of spec' doing physical activity is often made very unpleasant by the actions of others. As for NDHQ middle aged waist expansion at desk jobs is a fact of north american life and has been that way for a very long time and isn't a recent thing at all. Leslie Groves packed on a few pounds in the 40's basically doing a desk job but he got the job done.


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## Ex-Dragoon (25 Jul 2005)

SeanPaul_031 said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> Gluttony is a sin



So is Pride.


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## DogOfWar (25 Jul 2005)

well in the naval reserves, on the ship Im posted to right now. We have a bowflex. No cardio equipment and starting next week Im going to be at sea for 6 weeks. Thats no PT for 6 weeks and to much food. The CF makes it hard for troops in shape to stay in shape. I found a ladder that perfect for chin ups and I will drag the bowflex out from the corner of dankness its in and set it up....and do push ups and Im going to buy a skipping rope but it is still hard.

I dont even know who to complain to about this sigh.....

I WANT TO STAY IN SHAPE BUT APPARENTLY THAT ISNT A CONCERN IN THE NAVY RESERVE


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## Britney Spears (25 Jul 2005)

Boy, how did people ever get in shape before they invented "cardio machines" eh? ;D


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## DogOfWar (25 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Boy, how did people ever get in shape before they invented "cardio machines" eh? ;D



You bugger  ;D 

Have you seen an MCDV- you dont have the space to run around the ship. God- giv me a hamster wheel i dont care but give me something.


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## Gunner98 (25 Jul 2005)

Lets get them all out at once, I'm sure we all have our fav:

7 Deadly sins are:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation. 

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

The Seven Heavenly Virtues:
faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence 

The Seven Contrary Virtues:
humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence


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## paracowboy (25 Jul 2005)

7 Deadly sins are:





> Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.


check





> Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.


 check


> Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.


check, although, really, how much beer *does* one 'require'?





> Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.


check. And check!





> Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.


check





> Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.


nope, good here.





> Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.


che... ah, screw it
woo hoo! 6 out of 7!


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## armywoman (25 Jul 2005)

Oh crap!  I am definitely going to hell!   >


Especially when it comes to Lust, Greed and Gluttony.   Those three go so well together don't you think?

Even better when your greedy and/or glutinous for lust!!


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## SeanPaul_031 (26 Jul 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> So is Pride.



So is Envy.


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## Reccesoldier (26 Jul 2005)

Ahhhh, the pleasure of being a quasi-zen-Buddhist-agnostic... No Sin! Woo Hoo!!! ;D

Back on topic...

I'm not a PT god by any stretch of the imagination (there was a time though.... :warstory but being a smoker at XX years old and 20 years of service it is pretty pitiful that I can still out run young troops half my age.

I saw an MP MCpl clearing in to Disney land on the Rideau two weeks ago in CF's and I'll tell you this guy needed an FAC for his brass buttons. The only thing that kept me from telling him to take off his tunic was the glare of the CWO PM beside him when he saw the look on my face. This guy was a disgrace to see in uniform.

Now having gotten that rant off my chest I do not expect everyone in the CF to be Mr. or Mrs Universe. All that is required is that they be able to do their job and conform to the CF's standard of physical fitness.

I know I'm going to get eaten alive for this but until the standard changes the CF Express test is the standard. Do I think it should be a higher standard? Yes, at least for the pointy end. The real REMFS, the ones who never go out into the field/deploy can keep the express test as a basic measure of general health those who can or will end up in the **** should be held to a higher standard. One size never fits all, pardon the pun.


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## bossi (26 Jul 2005)

BeadWindow said:
			
		

> Have you seen an MCDV- you dont have the space to run around the ship. God- giv me a hamster wheel i dont care but give me something.



Hmmm ... I kinda think there are modernised versions of 5BX ...
(i.e. that don't require much in the way of non-human equipment ...)

Heck - I've even read about American PW's in Vietnam/Hanoi Hilton who did 5BX ... but maybe that was only because their captors hadn't embraced the underwhelming "Personnel Support Agency" concept back then ...


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## DogOfWar (26 Jul 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Hmmm ... I kinda think there are modernised versions of 5BX ...
> (i.e. that don't require much in the way of non-human equipment ...)
> 
> Heck - I've even read about American PW's in Vietnam/Hanoi Hilton who did 5BX ... but maybe that was only because their captors hadn't embraced the underwhelming "Personnel Support Agency" concept back then ...



Where can I find info on this 5BX workout?


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jul 2005)

Google "5bx workout"


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## Gunner98 (26 Jul 2005)

The 5BX program was developed for the Royal Canadian Air Force by Bill Orban. They stopped using it 25 years ago. Some people say that some of the exercises are outdated and could be harmful - others use it and have no problems at all. In the end the choice is yours whether you take up 5BX.

http://www.statesa.com/gettingfit/5bx.php


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 Jul 2005)

SeanPaul_031 said:
			
		

> So is Envy.


 : Gunner98 already covered this....


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## FITSUMO (26 Jul 2005)

"Lets get them all out at once, I'm sure we all have our fav:

7 Deadly sins are:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation. 

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work."


6 out of 7 for the above also.

"The Seven Heavenly Virtues:
faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence 

The Seven Contrary Virtues:
humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence "

and for these, oohhh crap I have alot of work ahead.


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## reccecrewman (31 Aug 2005)

This thread caught my eye, it is a problem in our Army.  I had an American S/Sgt. approach me when I was overseas once and asked me "I've noticed you guys have an awful lot of fat people in your Army? Is that common or what?"  I was rather embarrased because he was right and it made me realize that our allies take note of things like this.  Out of all the nations we worked closely with, ie the Germans, Norwegians, Slovenians, Hungarians and Americans, none of their troops were fat, but you didn't have a far hike to go to find a fat Canadian. As for that little "if time permits" loophole, thats a load of crap.  If your unit can't make time for you to do PT (Every combat arms unit finds the time each day) then for petes sake, put the fork down and wake up a little earlier and do PT on your own time or do it after work!  We get paid good money to do our job and a significant part of that is being in good physical shape.  I'm not saying by any means that all our soldiers have to be in Ironman shape, but there's no reason or excuse for somebody to be 40+ pounds overweight.Each soldier has a commitment to physical fitness and it should be enforced.


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## TCBF (31 Aug 2005)

Fitness is 'Politically Incorrect' in today's DND.  It interferes with the long term goal of 'Inclusiveness of Command' (cool phrase, eh?  I just made that up)..  Not to mention the bad old days of the BMI Inquistion, and a certain - IIRC - CDS saying "Give me two years, and you won't see any overweight people in uniform" or words to that effect.

If we seriously want our basic fitness level to apply to ALL members of the CF, we need merely insert a PO 400 - being the express test - into the Training Plan of EVERY course in the CF.  Then put out a CANFORGEN saying all must pass this test the morning of Day 1 of the crse, or RTU at the unit's expense. Just like Basic Para.  No waivers.

Note that an MO can declare you 'fit for training', but he CANNOT put you on course.  An MO is an advisor.  Advisors advise, COMMANDERs command.

So, once everyone has to pass PO 400 before receiving ANY course training, we effectively freeze the careers of those chronically unable to lead others under operational conditions as well as censuring those who would otherwise be placed in positions where their appearance and deportment is expected to set an example. 

Once it becomes clear that there is NO way around this, the target audience will either meet the standard, or self-select out of the stream.  

Comments?

Tom


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2005)

Tom

Good intentions.

I've seen people in many Purple trades who were grossly overweight.  You may run into one at the front gate of Edmonton Garrison.  I've seen them so large that special tailoring had to be done to fit them with uniforms.  Be they MPs or Cooks or whatever.  To bring about your plan, you would have to go to the Head, and the Head is in Ottawa.  Next time you are down that way, relax with a coffee in the Rideau Centre overlooking the Puzzle Palace and take a survey.  Need I say any more.   :-[


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## Kat Stevens (31 Aug 2005)

If you're going to witch hunt tubby Cpls and Ptes, you better make sure you purge all the tubby Gens and Cols first..... 

Kat


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2005)

We are a Classless Society.

Yeah! ...... Sure!

[EDIT]  (Those darn Orwellian Pigs are raising their voices again)


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I've seen people in many Purple trades who were grossly overweight.



Let's get serious they are quite a few Navy, Combat Arms and Air Force op pers who fit the "tubby" profile.  It is not just purple people.  Comd CTC Gagetown, in particular, made it mandatory that every course include PT regardless of duration or complexity.  Only problem was he did not allow the course timetable or the workday to expand to account for these additional training periods.



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> So, once everyone has to pass PO 400 before receiving ANY course training, we effectively freeze the careers of those chronically unable to lead others under operational conditions as well as censuring those who would otherwise be placed in positions where their appearance and deportment is expected to set an example.



We can't even agree on (or defend in CHRA Tribunal) one standard for PT across the Forces other than the Shuttle Run/EXPRES test.  Who is defining this level of appearance and deportment, especially for soldiers who can now serve to 60.  We have not begun to discover what it means financially and administratively to have people serving that long.  Everyone will be medically released in the future because you will be allowed to serve until you are broken or have enough coming in from your pensions to permit a life of leisure.  

So let's speed the breaking process by continually testing people who have great skills to go with a high IQ and suffer from declining fitness by "someone's ill-defined standard".  Since there has historically been 10 log/admin/truckers for every soldier in the trench or on the beachhead, how does this make sense.  Sorry Billy you are great leader, tactician and strategist but you just can't keep up to the 4 minute mile pace at the Regt/Bn/School, so off you go - your kind ain't welcome in this town.

Fitness is only one characteristic of a good member of the CF - purple or otherwise.


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## GO!!! (1 Sep 2005)

TCBF is right on.

Perfect examples of our travesty of fitness exist throughout the CF, but I believe that the purple trades enjoy a far higher proportion of the plump. Anyone seen that Air Force Colonel in Trenton who sits on two chairs? I saw him have FOURTHS. 

Anyway, a perfect example of our "inclusiveness" is the PLQ mod trg. The instructors on the course - all WATC permanent staff, were SUPPOSED to assess the candidates ability to teach PT. Unfortunately, they were unable to keep up every AM, and ended up assessing from the rear, after they shortened PT to 15mins. How in the &*% are those guys supposed to lead a rifle section? How can you lead when you need medical assistance to keep up with the advance?

Some Cpls passed the course unable to climb three flights of stairs with their webbing on, and are now entusted to lead.

Those Sgts should have been tossed or forced to remuster a decade ago. Promote younger soldiers and fix our geriatric NCO corps, and the rest of the army will fall into line - after all - they are the backbone - right?

As for the rest of the military, use the Coopers test. You score say, 65, or are ineligible for promotion. Higher scores are calculated into the merit boards. The same rationale can be used as exists for french trg "I learned french, and you can too" There are gyms on every CF base - use'em.

OR only make uniforms to a certain size limit - if you can't fit - well, I guess you will have to waddle around with your gut hanging out - until you are shamed into losing it.

Seriously though, how competent can a leader be if they cannot muster the willpower to restrict their caloric intake and do 20 mins of cardio a day?


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## Ranman (1 Sep 2005)

Fat does not equal wimpy.


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

Your right about us css having more overweight people, i guess it all comes down to personal pride and self discipline. a lot of folks in css trades don't take soldiering seriously, therefore feel that fitness is a non issue. also, the cf express test is well ok, but when some one fails nothing is done. in addition the bft is partially to blame, alot of people can walk 13.2 k with a ruck. why not make it manditory to complete both evaluations every year then deal with a failure in an approprite manner.

hey GO, have things changed in wianwright? last i heard psp taught the physical fitness portion? not trying to be an a-hole, just asking.


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## TCBF (1 Sep 2005)

"Fitness is only one characteristic of a good member of the CF - purple or otherwise."

Correct. So, right now we are spending huge splodges of wonga on 'scientific' programs and purty picture books related to CF fitness, but have no WILL to set or enforce any sort of standard at all.

No one wants to go back to the BMI program where Cbt A soldiers were being released for 'obesity' by clerks who were fatter than they were.  

As well, some trades/positions need fitter troops than others.

So:

1.  Should there be a minimum CF standard, or separate ones for each service?

2.  Should the PT stds be by trade, or trade and position?

3.  Should a Fit category be developed like the Med Category (312225, etc), coded to each individual, and various posting positions be given a code.?  For example, lets say I want to be posted as an Armoured Recce Observer/Controller at CMTC.  It is coded FitCat ABDCA.  I am ACEBA.  That means I can't go until I pass the test to the standard needed of the position.  Comments?

4.  Should COs see a person's Med Cat and FitCat as part of their posting instruction, and be able to quash the posting of those deemed 'Not Wanted In Unit', etc.

Comments?

Tom


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

Kinda goes against universality of service though, but so does not enforcing the "rules" i guess. as a css trade, if push comes to shove and we wind up in the s**t, i want some one who can cover my ass breaking contact, not stroke out half way through.


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## TCBF (1 Sep 2005)

Solutions?


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

ENFORCE the existing rules. if someone fails the express test, C&P, appt, with a dietition, and perscribed exercise.


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## DJ (1 Sep 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> 2.  Should the PT stds be by trade, or trade and position?



NO.  This idea came up in my BMQ/SQ and I must say that I do not agree.  One standard for all.  There should be no 'weak' trades and I think that each person should strive to beat whatever standard there is; this idea goes with that saying 'Train hard fight easy...'.  Even though I'm not an infanteer I strive to not only match their physical standards but to beat them.  I guess my pride shouldn't be forced upon others but I do not believe that soldiers should be able to hide behind their trade when it comes to doing a little PT.  

solutions?  I was hoping to get-by with a quick rant.  Perhaps more stress on PT (I don't think that it is given enough priority).  Perhaps set-up programs where everybody who does not meet a standard must increase PT levels and have evaluations.  I'm not expecting miracles, but as long as soldiers are improving week by week the institution would be stronger as a whole and this would be less of a concern over time.


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

Here's one that will pi** a few people off . Don't allow sports during PT time. Save pT time for PT. Train for sports, don't use sports to train.


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## TCBF (1 Sep 2005)

So, no regimental hockey team practices during PT?  Don't theses guys get a pretty good workout at practice?

When I was a Trooper in Pet in the good old days (+-), bowling was a  legit sport on sports afternoon.  I was 21.  There was beer sold in every bowling alley in the CF.  (Great hangout for the chronics who had to behave in the Mess).  We were gooned at supper every Monday night.

I think eliminating bowling from Regt sports afternoon was probably a good move, but hockey, soccer, broomball and floor hock are good work outs, or can be.

Tom


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

I agree, they are good workouts, but it's easy for people to dog it. Besides Tom, we have probably both seen the "guy" who is too hurt or too busy to do pt all year then when hockey season come around, bam, he's ok or he's not so busy anymore. maybe only troops who get an exempt on their express tes should be allowed to play on bn sports teams.


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## TCBF (1 Sep 2005)

"maybe only troops who get an exempt on their express tes should be allowed to play on bn sports teams."  

-Hmmmmnnnn...  IIRC, guys who did the mil sports competition in the 8 CH in Lahr (I did the Forced March Team for five years) still did the 2X10, or whatever it was, buy saying you can't do sports unless you exempt on Express (or ___ on the 13km+)?

Interesting.  But I think the field of 'waivers' and 'exemptions' offer more abuses than the taxpayer funded regtl oldtimers hockey clubs do.  

Tom


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

Hey, i am not saying ban sports afternoons or shut sports down, they are a cf tradition to a point. Just use morning pt for pt...maybe do crossfit or somthing out of the army fitness manual etc. crossfit is great, makes me want to throw up when i am done. and depending on the work out it can take between 15 mins to an hour.

Besides, the 13.2k is a crock of s**t ;D. i think more people can pass that than the express test, nevermind get an exempt.


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## laser_taser_blazer (1 Sep 2005)

JESUS CHRIST!!!! 

WHAT IS THIS ARMY COMING TO???????????????????

These people are lucky I'm not their commanding officer.


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## Infanteer (1 Sep 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> TCBF is right on.
> 
> Perfect examples of our travesty of fitness exist throughout the CF, but I believe that the purple trades enjoy a far higher proportion of the plump. Anyone seen that Air Force Colonel in Trenton who sits on two chairs? I saw him have FOURTHS.
> 
> ...



+1.   GO is right on the money here.   Let's not candy coat the topic with the "its ok to be fat" line - I've seen enough stragglers watching 1 GS Btn run or ruck (or watching the 40 year old soccer moms pull up the rear in a 1 CER run we passed) to know that this is real.

I think TCBF's proposal is a very doable first step into enforcing a standard - there are many that can't do the Express Test (I guarantee it).



			
				Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Fitness is only one characteristic of a good member of the CF - purple or otherwise.



That's the kind of mentality that has us where we are.

Need a solution?   I read a history of the Sergeants Major of the United States Marine Corps (look at these men after 30 years of service).   Anyways, the book went into detail about the Marines recovering quickly from the post-Vietnam "dark times" - dealing with chronically unfit troops was one of the subjects that successive Commandants and Sergeants Major dealt with - pictures in dress uniform were included with pers files at promotion boards.   Draconian policies?   Perhaps.   But the Corps seems to be holding its own.

There is a problem here - read the anecdote that got this thread going again.   Look at recruiting standards in the US, Britain and Australia; all are far higher than in Canada.   End result - we reap what we sow; I'm willing to be being physically prepared has a big link with being mentally prepared.   There is a reason you don't hear about US Marines sobbing to the Ombudsman about an 18 hour work day....


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## GO!!! (1 Sep 2005)

FWC - yes, the watc instructors "teach" : PT on the Mod 6 now.

I think another major problem (in edmonton anyway) is the QUALITY of PT being done, not so much the time allocated. How many of us have borne witness to a section of wogs in PT gear strolling around the running track, coffee and darts in hand, moving so slowly that they do not even break a sweat? 

The time has been allocated, the CoC is not enforcing the trg! How about GS Bn's webbing walks?

The Brit royal marines are a bit closer to the mark with their system of "Gym workout #1" in which there is a set number of exercises and repetitions that must be performed in a set time - this way "going for a run" is not as subjective as it is now.

I personnaly find it embarrassing to stand next to a man in uniform in maternity wear in the bank, the civvies can't really tell the difference - other than the obvious!

PT should be a requirement - if you are unable to score 65 on the Coopers test, counselling, C+P, release. We don't need you.


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## Haggis (1 Sep 2005)

About 2 weeks ago I was asked two questions by a civilian manager at work (I'm at NDHQ).  "Are military members entitled to time during the work day for PT?" and "Am I responsible for thier level of fitness?"

I supplied a quote from CFAO 50-1 (emphasis is mine):

"REQUIREMENT AND RESPONSIBILITY
4. It is a *mandatory military requirement  * that members participate in the Canadian Forces Exercise Prescription (CF EXPRES) Program. *The physical fitness training prescribed under this Program shall be conducted during normal working hours when circumstances per*mit. When this is not feasible, the member *must * maintain training outside normal working hours, in accordance with the member's CF EXPRES Program prescription. The times and places of physical fitness training outside normal working hours will be determined mutually by the member and the EXPRES evaluator. To the extent practicable, these times and places shall be annotated on form DND 279 -- CF EXPRES and approved by the commanding officer (CO). This physical training shall be considered as fulfilling the military requirement for participation in the CF EXPRES Program even when conducted outside normal working hours. 

5. Leadership is fundamental to program success and therefore the *primary responsibility rests with the chain of command (including civilian supervisors and managers)* to ensure that all members actively participate in *regular* exercise programs. 

6. To meet their specific requirements, commanders of commands may amplify this order by publishing command physical fitness policies and instructions consistent with this order. In addition, due to the varying nature of employment of Reservists on Continuous or Periodic Reserve Service (Class A or B) for less than 181 days, commanders of commands are delegated authority to determine the level of fitness required for these members of the Reserve Force. 

7. *COs are responsible for programs conducted in accordance with CF policy and command direct*ion. Physical education and recreation (PE&R) staffs are responsible to their COs for planning, organizing, conducting, instructing, and evaluating CF physical training programs. Where necessary, members of other military occupations who are appropriately qualified Unit/Ship Physical Training Assistants may evaluate and train personnel under this order." 

and....

"3. Career Administrative Policy -- General. If failure is determined to be a *performance deficiency*, then CFAOs: 26-17, Recorded Warning and Counselling and Probation -- Non-Commissioned Members, 26-21, Career Shortcomings -- Officers -- with notification to NDHQ may apply. If it is a *medical problem * then 34-26, Career Medical Review Board, may apply. If Service requirements have precluded adequate remedial training, then the above CFAOs may be inappropriate and alternative corrective measures may be required. *In all cases the CO has requisite authority to remedy the situation."*

Now , if the regulation is applied with both spirit and intent in mind, there is no excuse for being out of shape.

*GO!!! *  In all fairness, the CFMPFS is pretty low.   But for now it's THE Standard.   It MUST be enforced before we can move on.


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

Fatwog Cpl GO!! says, "Those Sgts should have been tossed or forced to remuster a decade ago."  Sure remuster them to the purple trades.  Perhaps that is why there are so many fatsos in the purple trades, because they were drummed out of the Cbt Arms.

Other countries (US, UK, Aus) don't have a "compassionate" Human Rights Act - Canada does.

Solutions - the only way to establish defendable fitness standards is for MOSART to complete the work they began which is to establish *Bona Fide* operational requirements for each and every trade.  CHRA Tribunals will continue to enforce the "compassionate" rights until this is completed.

TCBH, FatWog Cpl - the Army Fitness Manual was a legitimate attempt to utilize "experts from the world of fitness" to begin to establish Bona Fide, defendable standards for the Army.  I haven't see a similar effort from the CSS, Air Force or Navy in this regard.


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## Haggis (1 Sep 2005)

This topic (by design or by coincidence) has received some outside attention:



> PUBLICATION:  National Post
> DATE:  2005.09.01
> EDITION:  National
> SECTION:  Editorials
> ...




... and this from the National Post, no less.


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Fatwog Cpl says, "Those Sgts should have been tossed or forced to remuster a decade ago."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## George Wallace (1 Sep 2005)

Interesting article.   Shirley Robinson.   Doesn't she have a rather 'unusual' 'past' in the CF?


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

The National Post - a respectable rag - that is another thread.  

"But the firing of modern artillery guns can still, to name but one example, require the lifting of heavy shells, again and again, sometimes for hours."  All current and former Gunners wipe the drool from your cheeks - "hours" - yeah right.  Modern artillery SP have auto-loaders!

FatWog Cpl - please accept my apologies - it was a quote from GO!!  I will amend original post.


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

Thanks, Haggis. That is exactly what i was getting at with enforcement of the rules!

Gunner 98, i am not slamming the AFM, it seems like a good program to follow, progressive and relevent!

I know i am a lowly css trade but last time i looked i was still in the army

Thanks by the way, for the ammendment!


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## buzgo (1 Sep 2005)

A lot of this all goes back to the destruction of the PERI and PERO trades. From what I've been told ( I know alot of PSP and ex-PERI/O people) the Army basically decided that they would take PT matters into their own hands and come up with their own fitness standards/programmes. Since none of the other services wanted to use the PER trades, they were FRPd out of existance. This led to the creation of PSP and now we have all of the civilian fitness instructors who are very qualified (they must have a univ deg in PT) but don't have much say in things. The loss of the PERI trade has had a direct effect on the level of fitness in the CF...

So maybe the solution is to bring back the PERI and PERO trade. That way we can have MILITARY specialists who can enforce standards. Its obvious that the current system hasn't worked out well. The Army fitness manual is a good start, but if the will to adhere to it isn't there...

Maybe there are some ex-PERI or PERO types around that can correct me if I am wrong or add to what I've said.


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

I like your idea GO, but the fact of the matter there is that we would have a much smaller army. How many people can't do one pull up or bench a min of 65kg, but run the mile and a half in like 8 mins, and would therefore fail the coopers!


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## Edward Campbell (1 Sep 2005)

It is a matter of top level *will*.

I can assure you that the _will_ to guarantee that senior officers take all their required French language training - during duty hours, and take their tests existed, and, I think, still exists.

It will require the Minister (not just the CDS) to say: "Physical fitness is mandatory; here are the standards, approved by the government; every person in the CF must meet the appropriate standards for their age and job - this is a condition of employment."

Anything less than that will leave us with the unsatisfactory _status quo_.  Such a minsiterial statement may lead to orders-in-council (cabinet regulations) to exempt DND from provisions of, literally, dozens of Acts and Regulations.  The entire _equality_ industry will go ballistic and will lobby like the very devil to thwart any such effort.

This is an issue which individual soldiers, _en masse_, need to _make their own_ and they should bombard MPs and the minister with e-mails and letters complaining about fitness levels, tests, time and so on.

Government will not move on this issue unless there is real, measurable pressure.  Some _bad_ PR would help - it would be beneficial, albeit embarrassing, if a journalist (sp?) did an article, with photos about the fatties.  It would be better if it was on CTV.


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## Haggis (1 Sep 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> This led to the creation of PSP and now we have all of the civilian fitness instructors who are very qualified (they must have a univ deg in PT) but don't have much say in things.



I work in the same buidling with the CFPSA and regularly meet them in the gym during my own PT.  CFPSA is headed by an Air Force MGen, who does regular and vigorous PT (isee him quite frequently).  An oft discuissed topic in the gym is standards.

CFPSA does have a substantial "say" in setting fitness standards.  They have the task of developing standards that are viable (in terms of being validated, affordable in terms of time and equipment costs and "testable") relevant to the CF as a whole and achievable by the average CF member.  No easy task given the demographics of the CF in terms of age, gender and trade requirements.

Edward:  

All that being said, CFPSA can develop whatever standards are required and directed by the CDS and the Armed Forces Council.  It still falls upon the CO and the leadership (both military and civilian) to implement and enforce those standards as they exist.  There's the weak link.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Sep 2005)

Unlike the states I don't think we can affored to tell our soldiers shape up or leave.

What we should do is enforce fitness more.   We need to make a system lead by military personal. All jokes aside,   I doubt 35 year old soldiers are keep on going over to the gym at night and have a 19 year old PSP worker drag them around the gym. Maybe i'm wrong.   Set something up through the military, by the military. Leave civilians out of it.

To be fair, in the last 5 months i've seen a lot soldiers in petawawa who were over weight busting their balls after hours (and in the morning) doing runs and rucksack marches.   I think for a lot of these guys and girls the drive and want is there, they just need some help.



> I know i am a lowly css trade but last time i looked i was still in the army


I think we've already covered how important it is to have CS and CSS trades in better physical condition (with more combat training) due to whats been going on in iraq.   Truckers make for a hell of a target.


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## WogCpl (1 Sep 2005)

I am 34 and have no problem with it, i guess it's all how you veiw training! those guys have been a great resource the last 4 or 5 years for me, lots of info. Unfortunately, i think that you have to threaten peoples jobs to get them of their butts. 

Enforce the standard and lead by example. We are willing to enforce hair cuts and dress but not fitness that needs to change.

besides there would be less troops going to phisio, in a fitter army, with knee and back problems that the "army" caused not the 44 pound sh1t locker hanging over their belt!


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## paracowboy (1 Sep 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> besides there would be less troops going to phisio, in a fitter army, with knee and back problems that the "army" caused not the 44 pound sh1t locker hanging over their belt!


precisely. Fit troops have less injuries, fewer health issues, and are capable of performing their duties better/longer. We owe it to the taxpayers of this nation to ensure they are getting everything they pay for.


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## Haggis (1 Sep 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> Enforce the standard and lead by example. We are willing to enforce hair cuts and dress....



Never been to Ottawa, have you??? ;D


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## Infanteer (1 Sep 2005)

> Shirley Robinson, the former deputy head of women personnel at National Defence headquarters, has insisted times have changed and strength is no longer what it once was in the military. "Why is upper-body strength the overriding factor in this day and age?" Ms. Robinson questioned. "That's not the kind of war we're in now: We're in the kind of war where you're driving along in a Jeep and you get blown up."
> 
> It's true: If everything in a military mission goes according to plan, physical strength and endurance may not be as important as they once were. But in war, nothing ever goes according to plan. After a female soldier is thrown from her exploded patrol vehicle, does she have the upper body strength to hoist a wounded comrade over her shoulders and carry him to safety?



Well, I'll say right now that Shirley Robinson is smoking crack and needs to stay in her lane....


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## 2 Cdo (1 Sep 2005)

Infanteer, bang f'ing on!


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## Gunner (1 Sep 2005)

Col Stogran's Physical Training Policy for the Canadian Forces Joint Operations Group


I have long been an advocate of the need for rigorous physical training; in fact, I was once referred to in a national newspaper article as a "training fanatic", a label that I am particularly proud of. I can't say, however, that I am particularly proud of the standards for physical fitness in the Canadian Forces, because in the past twenty years we have slowly eroded our standards to the point where current standards don't require any training in order to achieve. 

The CF Express, originally intended as an entry level test to provide service personnel with confirmation that they were healthy enough to embark on an exercise program and, indeed, to provide them with an "Exercise Prescription" to commence physical training. It has now become a standard. The Army has a weight load test that more than a training objective has become a right of passage for anyone deploying on a mission. It is a standard that requires very little if any training to attain and most people are capable of achieving if they can afford to be LOB for a couple of days afterward. Recognizing the problem with physical fitness, the CF has employed all sorts of Subject Matter Experts to try to identify a standard that is job specific and hence justifiable. We have looked at fitness tests such as digging trenches and loading ammo boxes on trucks. I consider this to be a resource intensive waste of time. 

The purpose of this memo is to outline the CFJOG policy on physical fitness training.   It has also been suggested that the standard of fitness that we currently maintain has proven itself on operations. That could be; however, I was once told by someone who had served in Bosnia and noted that when he saw a military person in civilian attire who was overweight he found that the majority of the time that person was a member of the Canadian Forces. I have participated in operations in Afghanistan where our coalition partners suffered a significant number of casualties due to the heat and altitudes of the Afghan frontier. We suffered none, because of the standard of physical fitness that the members of the Battle Group maintained out of professional and personal pride. Having said this, I came back from Afghanistan with a new appreciation for the importance of physical fitness, but not for the reason one might think. 

On the 17th of April, 2002, Major Schmidt of the US Air Force dropped a 500 pound precision guided bomb on the troops of A Company, 3PPCLI, who were   training at Tarnak Farms in Kandahar, Afganistan. Four soldiers were killed instantly and eight others injured. Of the latter, Sergeant Lorne Ford was the most seriously injured. Having lost an eye in the attack and nearly losing his leg, were it not for the combat trauma first aid administered on the scene and the speedy DUSTOFF to the US Army Medical Facility "CHARLIE MED" Sergeant Ford would have died. After a long night in the operating room, the surgeon who stitched Sergeant Ford back together told me that the only reason he was still alive was because Sergeant Lorne Ford was one of the fittest soldiers he had ever seen on his operating table. 

I submit that if we are serious about putting troops in harm's way, we must be serious about doing everything we can, before during and after a deployment to ensure the health and welfare of our personnel. The CF holds up its end of the bargain by offering the best possible health services to its members in garrison and on operations, and every base is provided first class fitness training facilities. I would be prepared to argue that all service personnel should be obligated to maintain a high standard of aerobic and anaerobic fitness to stay in the CF, in return for the health services and employment we are provided, even though running, push-ups, chin-ups and sit-ups may not be job-specific. I say this because, in my view, a service person who maintains a rigorous fitness training regime, aerobic and anaerobic, is more likely to come back from a mission healthier, physically
and mentally, than if that person were not fit in the first place, especially if that person is wounded on operations. 

I don't have the authority to set another standard of physical fitness, but I do have the authority to ensure that every member of the JOG is given the opportunity and the encouragement to pursue a rigorous fitness training regime. My attitude and policy towards Physical Training is as follows: 

* Anybody who wishes to participate in a sport or athletic endeavour during lunch hour shall be entitled to do so between 1130 hours and 1330 hours daily, barring operational or training imperatives. 

* The times and places of physical fitness training outside normal working hours will be determined mutually by the member and the EXPRES evaluator. To the extent practicable, these times and places shall be annotated on form DND 279 -- CF EXPRES and approved by the commanding officer (CO). This physical training shall be considered as fulfilling the military requirement for participation in the CF EXPRES Program even when conducted outside normal working hours. More insight into liability associated with PT is included on this website. 

* Standards of aerobic and anaerobic fitness are offered at the end of this page and members of the JOG are encouraged to train towards their Personal Best. Those personnel who achieve 65%, 75% and 85% in their respective category shall be formally recognized for their accomplishment.     

* This Personal Best programme is entirely voluntary, and members should not feel coerced or compelled to participate. However, Commanders who promote this programme and have demonstrated success in encouraging voluntary participation and progress in physical fitness standards will have their leadership acknowledged in their PER. 

* While CF EXPRES remains the only official standard in the CF, all units and personnel are encouraged to undertake the Army Fitness Training programme with a view to ensuring that everyone can complete the 13   kilometer Battle Fitness Test without becoming a casualty afterwards.   Frequent weight-load marches are encouraged. Start off with an extremely light rucksack and progressively add weight until the required standard is achieved without injury. Train, don't strain. 

* The CF Programme of Aerobic Excellence should be promoted in all units.

* Unit sports days, programmes, ongoing competitions such as squash ladders, and events are strongly encouraged 

* Individuals or teams who are prepared to represent the JOG and the CF in elite competitions and sporting events will be given whatever support the JOG can offer 

* Finally, any special accomplishments in the area of physical fitness should be widely heralded and reported.


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## Infanteer (1 Sep 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> * This Personal Best programme is entirely voluntary, and members should not feel coerced or compelled to participate. However, Commanders who promote this programme and have demonstrated success in encouraging voluntary participation and progress in physical fitness standards will have their leadership acknowledged in their PER.



There is where the change will start - convincing leaders to do more leading.  Hats off to Colonel Stogran for leading from the front.


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## Britney Spears (1 Sep 2005)

It still baffles me why anyone in our line of work even _needs_ their leaders to tell them to get in shape. Why would you WANT to be unfit and in the army at the same time? Fit soldiers are more likeley to survive ob the battlefield than fat, unfit ones, isn't it a pretty simple issue of self preservation? What do these people want? A memo from the CDS explaining this to them?  ???


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## bossi (2 Sep 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> It still baffles me why anyone in our line of work even _needs_ their leaders to tell them to get in shape. Why would you WANT to be unfit and in the army at the same time? ...



A person was just promoted where I work - the buttons on his CADPAT shirt should be registered as Restricted Weapons (or, in the context of this thread ... Prohibited).

So, why did he get promoted (especially when he's never been on an operation ...)?
Simple:  Because somebody higher up was hoodwinked (by the staff).



> "Leaders are people who do the right thing. Managers are people who do things right."
> - Warren G. Bennis



Here we arrive at a crucial point:  Staff are supposed to understand, anticipate, and execute the intent of the commander ... however ... it's a human failing - kinda like that commercial where the kid is supposed to buy something at the store, but comes home with some shiny thing that "caught his eye" ...

Most people join the military in order to serve - to defend their country, and to defend people who can't defend themselves.  However, somewhere along the way ... a few people wander off, and start placing themselves ahead of other things ... But, I digress ...

The larger issue is that people simply forget why they wear a uniform - they simply lose sight of The Aim.  It happens.

So, how do we remind ourselves on a daily basis ... ?

I adopted General Rick's words as my signature block at work:


> "We're not the public service of Canada, we're not just another department.
> We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people."
> -- General Rick



However ... somebody pointed out that it was too aggressive ... hmmm ...
(once again, I suggest some people have lost siight of The Aim).

Another example:  I was recently told by a senior officer that he has little patience for negativity (hmmm ...) while another called me a "naysayer" (... hmmm ... so, in other words, you only want me to say "yes" ... ?)



> "A 'Yes Man' on a staff is a menace to a commander.
> One with courage of his convictions is an asset."
> -- MGen Orlando Ward, 1934



So what?
It all boils down to Selection and Maintenance of the Aim:
Are you here to collect shiny things, or are you hear to "walk the walk".



> "Waste no time arguing what a good person should be. Be one."
> - Marcus Aurelius Antoninus



Every once in a while, I catch myself whining just a little bit too much (I'm human).
Most often, I eventually shut up and get back to work ...
No - it doesn't make it any easier when I see others promoted ahead of me (especially galling when they're less qualified, less experienced, and less competent ...).
However - did I join for promotions ...?
No.
Why do I stay?
Because if I don't, there'll be one less person who remembers The Aim ...



> "You don't get ahead by fighting your way to the top.  You get ahead by helping others to the top.  When you help others, they elevate you to successively higher levels of leadership."
> - William A. Cohen, Ph.D., MGen (ret), The Stuff Of Heroes


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## Haggis (2 Sep 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> It still baffles me why anyone in our line of work even _needs_ their leaders to tell them to get in shape. Why would you WANT to be unfit and in the army at the same time? Fit soldiers are more likeley to survive ob the battlefield than fat, unfit ones, isn't it a pretty simple issue of self preservation? What do these people want? A memo from the CDS explaining this to them?   ???



In a way, given the context of your comment, you sort of answered your own question.  "Fit soldiers are more likely to survive on the battlefield."  True, but with our readiness verification system "fat" (unfit) soldiers have an even higher chance of survival because they won't DAG Green and deploy at all.  If one does slip through the cracks (pretty big crack, I'd think) and is deployed, it's likely he won't be anywhere near the sharp end because his peers and superiors can't rely on him to go when the going gets tough.

I know I'm generalizing.  There are some soldiers who would qualify as fat compared to Col Stogran, Lorne Ford, Vic Hickey etc, who can more than pull thier weight.  In my mind the Army has two types of soldier:  Gazelles and Gorillas.  Both have thier place.  Hippos don't.


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## sapper07 (2 Sep 2005)

I hear alot of blah blah blah, but in the end, and of which alot of you "harder types" have already mentioned we need to move on and stop trying to make this army of the people a "reflection" of the people.   If you have been reading the news we are as a country getting fatter every year.   So is that what we reflect is fat?   We in the military need not get fatter but leaner, fitter, faster and stronger because in the end you need these attributes to carry the extra weight, unless you for one don't want to wear the armour plates when over seas along with everything else which is mission essential.   That's your call.   Now I have been in the stiuation where someone has some sort of issue of weight and they can't lose it.   Well I feel for you, and understand there are medical conditions out there, but if you can't perform as a contributing member of a section within a section enviroment then you really need to move on to another trade.   I speak more towards the combat arms, the other trades can do whatever they want.   There is absolutely no place for obesity in the combat arms.   

   There's a simple resolution for this, and what I speak of is a combination of basically two words.   They are image (towards those that look in from the outside) and they are having trouble recruiting I wonder why?   And being able to do your job.   It's called the BMI.   Bring it back!!


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## Britney Spears (2 Sep 2005)

> In a way, given the context of your comment, you sort of answered your own question.  "Fit soldiers are more likely to survive on the battlefield."  True, but with our readiness verification system "fat" (unfit) soldiers have an even higher chance of survival because they won't DAG Green and deploy at all.  If one does slip through the cracks (pretty big crack, I'd think) and is deployed, it's likely he won't be anywhere near the sharp end because his peers and superiors can't rely on him to go when the going gets tough.



Well, if the purpose of being unfit was to avoid being deployed, then these characters should truly be drummed out of the army, because they have much more serious issues than simple physical fitness.


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## FITSUMO (2 Sep 2005)

It's called the BMI.   Bring it back!!

on this note, pete reid( canada's top ironman tirathlete would be considered obese), so would tom cruse, and any NFL linebacker, and NHL defense man, and any one who is not a stick.   The BMI is flawed, period.   I have a good friend in TO who is 304 lbs, obese right?, VERY WRONG he has 4.2% body fat.   
You want fitter soldiers, change the standards of getting in, and demand more when on BMQ.   I, myself am a "fattie"( for now), but I can almost pass all the PT tests that are out there( US, British, CAN), pullups are the problem, but I am not going to stop until I can pass them all( personal goal).   But under sapper07 standards I wouldn't be able to do my job because I am high on the BMI, CRAP.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Sep 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Well, if the purpose of being unfit was to avoid being deployed, then these characters should truly be drummed out of the army, because they have much more serious issues than simple physical fitness.



Now you are bring up another serious problem:   ATTITUDE.

How many times have we all seen the Soldier/Sailor/Airman who didn't want to deploy?   The guy who thought the military was a 9 to 5 job and a easy way to make a buck so that he/she could go to school or retire with a good pension.   I've seen Cbt Arms units have to backfill Svc Bn posns because many of their people refused to deploy.   Talk about putting extra strain on the Cbt Arms.   But that is a topic for another thread.


----------



## Armymedic (2 Sep 2005)

sapper07 said:
			
		

> It's called the BMI.   Bring it back!!



BMI was removed because as an absolute it was found to be an ineffective determanant of fitness. Too many fit soldiers were considered overwieght and obese because thier BMI was too high.

I myself was one of these soldiers. I was the fittest member of my Sqn, running 10k races, playing unit and base level sports, and on recorded warning because my BMI was higher then 29 which meant I was overwieght.Make sence?

That is one example why BMI is no longer used as a standard.

Now as a medical person, I would avocate the use of BMI as a guideline during your medical. If you have another condition, high blood pressure for example, and a BMI of lets say, higher then 31, then you are immediately put on med cat. But thats my humble opinion, there are several people who make several times more money then me to decide these things.


----------



## sapper07 (2 Sep 2005)

Let me add to what I have already mentioned of which should go without me saying is an opinion.   The BMI is a good indicator, but it's just that, yes I too have seen some seriously in shape troops that were over the BMI level and were told to lose weight.   Ths is a crime.   So with the BMI there should also be some tolerance.

   Here's quote I just found.    Make you own mind up.   


   "The state of the Army can be evaluated by how its soldiers look in uniform, at any airport in the world."


----------



## FITSUMO (2 Sep 2005)

"The state of the Army can be evaluated by how its soldiers look in uniform, at any airport in the world."

great statement( thus the reason I am trying to be able pass all the PT tests, that I can find)......

maybe I am biased, because when i am "dressed up' ( in the past in uniform( and hopefully again)  or in a suite) my back and shoulders cam my gut..... .................


if the standards where higher and the public was more aware of the higher standards would the look of a soldier matter as much( just a question)......


----------



## sapper07 (2 Sep 2005)

Well you made me laugh, at when you said "cam my gut."  There's a saying "if you can't clean it cam it!"

  Responding to your last sentence, I personally think it matters that we as the CF portray a physically fit rapport with the visually stricken society that we represent.  I will say as a leader of troops, that I would have any man or woman, in the section that first and foremost had a positive attitude towards the problem as with you.  But now on to fixing it...


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## GO!!! (2 Sep 2005)

I agree with Army Medic on the uselessness of the BMI. Two years ago, I worked out like a madman, 3hrs a day in the gym, protein shakes, creatine, 150$ in groceries a week - and I got huge - I was able to bench my goal of 315lbs x 5 reps, and run 10km in 34minutes and change. I was at the UofA working out (OK, fishing for chicks) and had a hottie there do a BMI and bodyfat test on me. 6.3% bodyfat and a 31 on the BMI - as far as the army was concerned - I was obese - even though I scored 85+ on the coopers test!

That test had to go - which is why I think that the JTF and 3VP are on the right track with the Cooper's test. This is a test of capabilities and strength, not how much extra weight you drag around. 

Not to defend the plump either, but if you can run 2.4km in 10 mins or less, do 10 pull ups, fifty pushups and fifty situps in a minute and bench your bodyweight, you  are decently fit - just maybe not in the most appealing shape.

I guess I'm saying that we must be careful not to confuse "fitness" and "being in shape"


----------



## Haggis (2 Sep 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> That test had to go - which is why I think that the JTF and 3VP are on the right track with the Cooper's test. This is a test of capabilities and strength, not how much extra weight you drag around.



Agreed.  As a medical risk factor indicator BMI is useful once all other body composition and lifestyle factors are considered.

The Cooper's Test is not the "all encompassing" fix.  Here's an example.

During Op Palladium Roto 13 the RCD BG used the Cooper's Test as a "Personal Best" indicator.  The idea was to test before deployment and test twice again during deployment to gauge your personal progress as the CO expected the BG soldier to do PT at least six days a week.   I had a "somewhat round" Sgt in my company who could get through the run portion adequately but could pump out push ups like a machine and bench press an Iltis (with radios installed)  Test run time aside, he could also sprint the 100 m faster than half his platoon.  Was he "out of shape"?  In the eyes of the BMI, yes. Using our current standard, the BFT, no (although a ruck looked like a nuke bag when he wore it).  Neither with the Coopers Test however his scores were skewed by the push ups and bench press.



			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> I guess I'm saying that we must be careful not to confuse "fitness" and "being in shape"



Right you are.  And to add to that, don't confuse slim with fit.

 :warstory:
On my QL6B in 1988 we had a "appearingly fat" WO as one of our instructors.  The instructors would rotate each morning taking the course on PT.  We candidates dreaded PT with this WO who was nicknamed "Chubby Death".  Despite his size and apparent "fatness" this guy was surprisingly fit and would routinely work the shyte out of us younger and supposedly fitter Sgts.


----------



## GO!!! (2 Sep 2005)

I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of "skewed" but I see it this way - if someone is one of the brotherhood of mass - can bench bench an iltis and curl a howitzer, but is only marginal on the run, they are still fit, just with an emphasis on strength. The opposite end of the spectrum is those who hide from sudden gusts of wind behind flagpoles, can run like the wind, but fall down on the strength exercises.

Both of the people above are fit, will encounter less injury and will enjoy good health. As long as they achieve the minimums, who really cares if one maxes out at 450 and the other at 70. They both achieved the minimum of 65.

In my experience, most fitness tests are skewed in favour of light, skinny fast guys anyway.

I agree with your statement on those who achieve the oxymoron of "fatfit" and somehow manage to outperform their slimmer and more muscular colleagues on a regular basis.

The Coopers test is a measure of OVERALL fitness, with a composite score, so it represents that, being "skewed" is not a bad thing, as long as you get your minimum ten pts in each catagory.


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## Haggis (2 Sep 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of "skewed" but I see it this way - if someone is one of the brotherhood of mass - can bench bench an iltis and curl a howitzer, but is only marginal on the run, they are still fit, just with an emphasis on strength. The opposite end of the spectrum is those who hide from sudden gusts of wind behind flagpoles, can run like the wind, but fall down on the strength exercises.



... what I said earlier about Gorillas and Gazelles.  IMHO the fittest soldiers are the Gorillas who aspire to be Gazelles.


----------



## GO!!! (2 Sep 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> ... what I said earlier about Gorillas and Gazelles.   IMHO the fittest soldiers are the Gorillas who aspire to be Gazelles.



I'll buy that.


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## buzgo (2 Sep 2005)

Gazillas?

Gorzelles?


----------



## George Wallace (2 Sep 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Gazillas?
> 
> Gorzelles?



Alright...who's posting from Happy Hour?


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Sep 2005)

>IMHO the fittest soldiers are the Gorillas who aspire to be Gazelles.

Doesn't the CF pay for part of that surgery?


----------



## buzgo (2 Sep 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Alright...who's posting from Happy Hour?



Un-happy hour... I'm covering an evening shift at work because people had to go on the Managing Stress Effectively course...  :'(


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## Haggis (2 Sep 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Un-happy hour... I'm covering an evening shift at work because people had to go on the Managing Stress Effectively course...   :'(



Ha!  I went to one of those after about 6 months at NDHQ.  My boss thought I could be a good "resource" to help others cope.

I was the only uniform in the room, about 5 of us.  Each had to describe their current methods of dealing with stress.  Answers ranged from  "biofeedback" through "meditation" to 'long walks in the woods".  I replied "I work out, hit the heavy bag, shoot skeet and drink beer on weekends."

I was asked to leave.   ;D


----------



## Springroll (2 Sep 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Ha!   I went to one of those after about 6 months at NDHQ.   My boss thought I could be a good "resource" to help others cope.
> 
> I was the only uniform in the room, about 5 of us.   Each had to describe their current methods of dealing with stress.   Answers ranged from   "biofeedback" through "meditation" to 'long walks in the woods".   I replied "I work out, hit the heavy bag, shoot skeet and drink beer on weekends."
> 
> I was asked to leave.     ;D



Your ways sounds like how I handle my stress, other than the beer part...I drink gin and tonic instead  ;D


----------



## TCBF (2 Sep 2005)

"I work out, hit the heavy bag, shoot skeet and drink beer on weekends."

they asked you to leave?  The WHOLE story, please.

Tom


----------



## Danjanou (3 Sep 2005)

Tom I think we may have to buy him a beer to hear the WHOLE story. Sounds like it may be worth the price of a pint though.

So Haggis did they make you leave before or after the chanting and group hugs?


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## Haggis (3 Sep 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "I work out, hit the heavy bag, shoot skeet and drink beer on weekends."
> 
> they asked you to leave?   The WHOLE story, please.
> 
> Tom



Aww crap Tom, I had just logged off....

I know what you're thinking but, no, I was not "escorted from the building".   

I was asked by "The Facilitator" why I was there.   When I explained why (see original post) and she asked me if I had any "stress issues", I replied in the negative.   So she asked me to leave and save both of us some time and effort.   I went back to the office. 



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> Tom I think we may have to buy him a beer to hear the WHOLE story. Sounds like it may be worth the price of a pint though.



Not as exciting as you hoped.   A beer does sound appealing.   Mine is almost dry.



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> So Haggis did they make you leave before or after the chanting and group hugs?



I didn't get that far, I was "let go" (hopefully as an honours graduate) shortly after the first hour.  Never even made it to coffee break.  But I got that PO covered on my Native Awareness Course in Borden


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## Britney Spears (3 Sep 2005)

That doesn't sound like a very good course to me. If the whole point of it was to resolve YOUR stress issues, then it isn;t really a course, it's just counselling, no? I thought a stress management course would teach me as a leader how I can assess my subordinates' level of stress and to properly identify the symptoms of, and diagnose, stress relates injuries,  assist my subordinates in manage their stress, and provide immediate counseling to soldiers who may be suffering from its effects? Certainly that would seem to fit the title better.



Or maybe I should stop drinking......


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## TCBF (3 Sep 2005)

"I just put all that behind me." - Smokey Smith VC


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## Haggis (3 Sep 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> If the whole point of it was to resolve YOUR stress issues, then it isn;t really a course, it's just counselling, no?



This "course" was intended to help you deal with your stress *before* it becomes an issue.

Once stress   is an issue, those counselling sessions are usually one-on-one.



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> "I just put all that behind me." - Smokey Smith VC



Not everyone can, which is why these sessions are held.  NDHQ can be pretty stressful.  Sometimes you're so busy  you can't make it to the gym (says he as he tries to steer this back on topic....)


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## Gunner98 (3 Sep 2005)

I am not sure that Smokey was always able to put it all behind him - during WWII he was promoted 9 times to Cpl and busted 9 times to Pte. He had his own particular ways to deal with things that is for sure, including a good drink.


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## TCBF (3 Sep 2005)

Most did.  A lot of the grain elevators in Port Arthur/Fort William (now Thunder Bay) had a bunch of ex WW2 Lake Sups working there after the war. A few guys would be constantly drinking on the job, but their buddies covered for them.  Point is, eventually, they were mostly able to function without being told they were a casualty needing extensive counseling for the rest of their lives.  Any counselling they got was from their buddies who went through Hell with them.  

Tom


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## TCBF (3 Sep 2005)

But, back on topic... Hey!  We could ask that Troops who look like 300 pounds of lard in a 30 pound bag while wearing a uniform be told to stop wearing the uniform, and wear the new poncho liner/sb liner instead.

Kind of a 'CADPAT mu-mu', if you know what I'm sayin'.

Hey, just tryin' to keep it real.
Tom


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## bossi (3 Sep 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> But, back on topic... Hey!   We could ask that Troops who look like 300 pounds of lard in a 30 pound bag while wearing a uniform be told to stop wearing the uniform, and wear the new poncho liner/sb liner instead.
> 
> Kind of a 'CADPAT mu-mu', if you know what I'm sayin'. ...



Wow - I'm having a flashback ...
I once knew a fellow who was ordered to stop wearing his uniform for this very reason (and, to illustrate his girth ... when they made his kilt, they had to take three kilts and cut the apron off of two of them ... and, no - I'm not kidding/exaggerating ...)

We used to refer to this guy as "the second fattest man in NATO - can't tell you who's the fattest, becaust that would give away our troop lift capability ..." (we even had a skit where he'd be "lapse'd" out the back of a Herc on a pallet, wearing goggles and one of those WWI flying scarves ...)

The fit officers in the HQ would stop, turn around, and go use another route if they spotted him in the open ... so they could avoid having to salute him ... (and, no - I'm not kidding/exaggerating).

And, most ironically ... all of this to say:   Yes, we're back on topic ... since we've arrived back at the situation I mentioned previously - the tard at work (with no operational experience) who just got promoted, even though his CADPAT shirts are performing a textile strength test ... (and, no - I'm not kidding/exaggerating - the front of his shirt gapes, as the buttons struggle to keep it from bursting open ...).   This guy was spotted in the gym quite a few times .. in the one or two weeks immediately before his promotion ...

But, in addition to his personal shame (of which he has none), the blame lies with the superiors who were hoodwinked into promoting him (to the detriment of morale amongst all those who are fitter, more qualified, and more experienced ...).   In other words, a failure of leadership.

I'd like to thank Haggis *Gunner* for posting Col Stogran's policy on fitness - I immediately noticed that it's more than similar to the new fitness policy being instituted where I work, too ... which makes me think that "hope springs anew" ...

"Gorzelles and Grazillas" ... LOL - reminds me of the Para Regt AAR on the Falklands, which mentioned how the gazelles all became cas after going without sleep for several days (because they had no reserves of body fat) ... and then the rugby players from Tpt or Q stores took over ... and yomped all the way to the finish line ... 

Food for thought.   Eat hearty!


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## Haggis (3 Sep 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> I'd like to thank Haggis for posting Col Stogran's policy on fitness - I immediately noticed that it's more than similar to the new fitness policy being instituted where I work, too ... which makes me think that "hope springs anew" ...



Sorry, Bossi, but it wasn't me.  Gunner gets the credit.  Excellent read nonetheless.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> "Gorzelles and Grazillas" ... LOL - reminds me of the Para Regt AAR on the Falklands, which mentioned how the gazelles all became cas after going without sleep for several days (because they had no reserves of body fat) ... and then the rugby players from Tpt or Q stores took over ... and yomped all the way to the finish line ...



I like to think of myself as a medium speed Silverback......  OK, Silverhead....  ;D


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## bossi (3 Sep 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Sorry, Bossi, but it wasn't me.   Gunner gets the credit.   Excellent read nonetheless.



Ooops - I'm getting so accustomed to your common sense and insight (Great Chieftain of the puddin race), that I'd associated it with you ... but of course I should have remembered Gunner ... (he's probably going to smack me for forgetting)



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> I like to think of myself as a medium speed Silverback......  OK, Silverhead....  ;D



I'm a goalie - big is good for goalies.  And, those errant hairs in my moustache are blonde, damn it - not gray!


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## Gunner (3 Sep 2005)

> I should have remembered Gunner ... (he's probably going to smack me for forgetting)



You are authorized self-flagellation on my behalf.


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## Haggis (3 Sep 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> You are authorized self-flagellation on my behalf.



Can you upload that as an MPeg file?  Not much on TV tonight....


----------



## Daidalous (7 Sep 2005)

Alright  so  I have read all 17 pages of this post before I posted a responce,  good lord.   I am all for  people being  physically and mental fit to do there job.   I did a little research  from all three elements.

Army= You are a solider first.  Anyone at any time can  be asked to  "close with and destroy the enemy."

Airforce=  You are a trades person first.  The Jets and Transports need to be in the Air.

Navy=  You are a sailor first.   Your ship is your bread and butter if it goes down you die, where are you going to swim to,  land?


I have been in the Army and the Airforce, so I know how they think about PT,  so with out shooting my mouth off  like a Tango Foxtrot,  I phoned a buddy of mine in Halifax, and asked him how PT was like in the Navy.  He told me on base it is great   but at sea it is next to impossible to stay in shape.   I asked him he must be kidding. "Bad mistake I got a tongue lashing"   First and formost NO Running on ship   it is to hard to keep contact with the deck when the ship is bouncing around, the PT room is smaller than some peoples  living rooms.   Mostly  1  bench some weights and 2 cardio machines. "  I thought  there you go 2 machines get your ass on that"   2 Cardio Machine 200+ souls on ship.  He told me that even with a good number of un motivated people on board you might get lucky to jog 30 min every 3 days or so.   

   All I can say is, maybe  unification  does not work,   you can't  treat all elements the same.   Sure it saves some serious money,  why else do you think they did it.   For the better of the CF


 P.S   In the picture that started this posting frenzy,  I thought that when you were working or posted to NDHQ it was DEU's  or workdress" Old saying"  you know pressed pants, pressed shirt,  highly shone ankle boots and ribbons.   i think that is 3A.  maybe lack of  discipline is a major problem to now(  But I bet that subject has been covered also)


Steve


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## Haggis (7 Sep 2005)

Daidalous said:
			
		

> I thought that when you were working or posted to NDHQ it was DEU's   or workdress" Old saying"   you know pressed pants, pressed shirt,   highly shone ankle boots and ribbons.     i think that is 3A.   maybe lack of   discipline is a major problem to now(   But I bet that subject has been covered also)



In Nov 2004, Standing Orders for NDHQ were amended placing all WOs and Officers into "an appropriate order of service dress".  Now, people who looked like crap in CADPAT now look like crap in DEU.


----------



## Corporal McDill. (7 Sep 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> We have had this discussion before.  My personal opinion and beliefs.  If you wear a uniform, any uniform wether it be military, police, EMS, Fire, heck even a security guard, YOU represent everyone else who wears that uniform.  Joe Civillian see's a fat@ss in uniform, and makes the asumption that we are all fat, lazy etc.  When I see someone in uniform, who is FAT, I feel embarassed for everyone else who wears that uniform, and has the self-respect, pride, and dignity to stay in reasonable shape.
> 
> Now before I get villified by people, that you can be fit and appear overweight, for the 90% of our wide-bottomed, artery clogged brothers and sisters in the service, I doubt they could climb a set of stairs without have a cardiac arrest.
> 
> We need to stop coddling our FATTIES in the army, get them doing PT, or get them out the door.



I totally agree with that.  I someone from say... Norway came to Canada and saw a soldier walk past him and this particular soldier happened to be fat, the Norwegian would probably think "Damn... Canada's army is fat".  That is if that was the only soldier they saw..


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## larry Strong (7 Sep 2005)

What do we expect from an Armed forces that does not even have PERI staff?


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## Gramps (7 Sep 2005)

"What do we expect from an Armed forces that does not even have PERI staff?"

I think getting rid of the PERI trade was a big mistake, they were much more able to motivate someone than a PSP Civvie mainly because there was a rank structure there; however, the unit, the senior NCOs, and the Jr. Leaders also have to share some responsibility here too. The individual is ultimately responsible for themself but, if their leadership doesn't care then neither will a lot of those individuals. I myself have my own reasons for running all of the time (and I am not exactly skinny either but certainly not fat) but, I have seen far too many people who will consume three or sometimes four bags of chips, three or four chocolate bars and the same amount of pop as well (in one day that is)then turn around and wonder why they cant lose weight when they only do about an hours worth of cardio per week.


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## Infanteer (7 Sep 2005)

To understand what a difference a good Army PERI staff would make, I just compare the Brit PTI (Infantry Corporal) who was responsible for course fitness and subsequently ran us into the ground to the 50 something PSP lady who liked to have walks in the city (I wish Al Qaeda would have gotten her) and plan beach parties ....


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## TCBF (7 Sep 2005)

The PERI's cooked their own goose.  We saw it coming for years - but they didn't.  Every time we had a request in for them to lead PT, ther weren't available - they were all working on their 'Rec' projects.  They morphed from a military asset into a community assset.  Only in Cornwallis, St Jean, and the Officer trg sites did they do a lot of the PT thing.  We saw them going fifteen years before they did - once the Majors who they turned down became Generals - yet they were still in shock.

Let this be a lesson to us all.  Try not to 'civillianize' your job , or you just might be replaced by one.

Tom


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Sep 2005)

Had to think about that and I could see where you could be right, in 10 years I can recall only twice having PT from a peri, basic and pre-para course.


----------



## Spr.Earl (7 Sep 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Had to think about that and I could see where you could be right, in 10 years I can recall only twice having PT from a peri, basic and pre-para course.


Bruce we no longer have "PERI Staff" they no longer exist.

Yes we had a Trade which were Physical Instructors "PERI Satff" and we had a few beast's among them,basically a trade for Jock's. 
When I first joined in 96 they took you out for your runs etc. and instructed you how to exercise properly and on the whole were very fare when it came to helping those who lacked the minimum athletic ability with in the Forces.


----------



## GO!!! (8 Sep 2005)

It would seem that the legacy of being a "community asset" has extended into the civvies that control the facilities today too... can anyone explain why the Edmonton Garrison pool is only open 90 minutes most days for the troops - but 2.5 hrs for kids/pregnant women etc?


----------



## Infanteer (8 Sep 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> It would seem that the legacy of being a "community asset" has extended into the civvies that control the facilities today too... can anyone explain why the Edmonton Garrison pool is only open 90 minutes most days for the troops - but 2.5 hrs for kids/pregnant women etc?



Tell me about it.  We often wanted to swim for an alternative PT, but they give you a minimal window to do so.  Kinda hard to push it (say, if your working up for a triathalon or something) around little kids and pool toys.


----------



## S McKee (8 Sep 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> But, in addition to his personal shame (of which he has none), the blame lies with the superiors who were hoodwinked into promoting him (to the detriment of morale amongst all those who are fitter, more qualified, and more experienced ...).    In other words, a failure of leadership.
> 
> "



Your right about the lack of leadership in this area. I was recently at a SCAN seminar, and during an open Q&A the topic turned to PT injuries and pensions etc. Anyway this clown says in a room full of about 300 people that he hadn't done a PT test in get this...17 years! I won't say which branch of the service he was in (air) but you could hear the gasps in the crowd and neck bones cracking from all the old Chiefs in audience swivelling their heads around to fine out who this imbecile was. Someone did ask him how he got away with it....his answer: operational reasons. What Bullshit.


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Sep 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> Your right about the lack of leadership in this area. I was recently at a SCAN seminar, and during an open Q&A the topic turned to PT injuries and pensions etc. Anyway this clown says in a room full of about 300 people that he hadn't done a PT test in get this...17 years! I won't say which branch of the service he was in (air) but you could hear the gasps in the crowd and neck bones cracking from all the old Chiefs in audience swivelling their heads around to fine out who this imbecile was. Someone did ask him how he got away with it....his answer: operational reasons. What Bullshit.




Uuuugh!     Please take my blue-embroidered CADPAT rank away from me before I string myself up with it and my name-tape...   :-[

Duey


----------



## Jungle (8 Sep 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> ... he hadn't done a PT test in get this...17 years!


I'm not surprised... you say everybody in the room gasped, but Leaders at all levels of command, 8 or 9 COs and RSMs (or the Air Force equivalents) included, ignored this guy for 17 years. Nobody followed up on this guy's game... he's only half to blame. He was probably one of those persons with "permanent" temporary medical conditions   : Somehow, these people are able to get away with it, and the system lets them abuse it.
If Leaders, at all levels throughout the CF, did their job of applying the principles of Leadership, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But how do you force someone to take the PT test when you don't take it yourself ??


----------



## 2 Cdo (8 Sep 2005)

Bravo jumper, extremely well said. For those of us who are responsible for the training and welfare of troops, WE are failing them if we don't instill a sense of self worth that regular PT will give them. Remember nobody ever drowned in sweat!


----------



## S McKee (8 Sep 2005)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised... you say everybody in the room gasped, but Leaders at all levels of command, 8 or 9 COs and RSMs (or the Air Force equivalents) included, ignored this guy for 17 years. Nobody followed up on this guy's game... he's only half to blame. He was probably one of those persons with "permanent" temporary medical conditions    : Somehow, these people are able to get away with it, and the system lets them abuse it.
> If Leaders, at all levels throughout the CF, did their job of applying the principles of Leadership, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But how do you force someone to take the PT test when you don't take it yourself ??



Your right his leaders are to blame, makes you wonder what they put on the Fitness testing portion of his PER?!


----------



## Haggis (6 Oct 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> Your right his leaders are to blame, makes you wonder what they put on the Fitness testing portion of his PER?!



I doubt it was "Fail" or "Med Excused".  Those make the member look bad.

"Not Tested" would require the supervisor to explain in the narrative why this member was not tested.  That could reflect poorly on the supervisor.

Likey it was "Passed" or Exempt". No explanation or obfuscation required.


----------



## COBRA-6 (6 Oct 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I doubt it was "Fail" or "Med Excused".   Those make the member look bad.
> 
> "Not Tested" would require the supervisor to explain in the narrative why this member was not tested.   That could reflect poorly on the supervisor.
> 
> Likey it was "Passed" or Exempt". No explanation or obfuscation required.



Maybe if a copy of your CF XPRESS Test / BFT results was a mandatory annex to the PER it would help solve the problem...


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## Haggis (6 Oct 2005)

It's challenging enough getting people to do a one page PER on time.  Now you want to add annexes???   

I think a better annex would be a peer review.  Have a soldier rated by his peers on elements of professional responsibility such as dress, fitness and professional knowledge.


.... and now that we've steered this one way off topic.... ;D


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## Sabre1918 (7 Oct 2005)

???People use "when time permits" as an excuse...
When time doesn't permit at my unit...I use my own lunch hour.
A regular army time schedule is 24hours a day....8 hours being asleep,
8 hours at work. That leaves you the soldier 8 hours of free time. How 
you choose to use that free time is up to you. However, surely out of
those eight hours you can put aside 1hr to do some form of aerobic
exercise.


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## geo (7 Oct 2005)

sabre.... most DND establishments allow plenty of oportunity for their personnel to do some PT.
if you want to take an xtra 1/2 hr of lunch to get in some PT - your boss is just as likely to join you.
Sports afternoons and the like can be found in most places... at least that's how things are in my neck of the woods.

Chimo!


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## Britney Spears (7 Oct 2005)

The bastard clerks at my BOR have been on "PT" every single time I needed something done this month. At this rate, if I ever find them they better be all wearing SOAC badges...


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## geo (7 Oct 2005)

That's a leadership issue.... 
CC and Adjt have to stipulate when those desks, phones & computers have to be manned err operated.


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## Daidalous (7 Oct 2005)

it really boils down to everyone   should be doing PT at the same time(well  people like fire fighters, doctors, MP's  excluded)you know  the old 07:30-09:00   that way   there are no closed down shops during PEEK  working hours.


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## geo (7 Oct 2005)

you're right didalous...........
and for those that wish it - they can also play sports over lunchtime.....
but the job's gotta get done...
have seen those that will eat over lunch, do their business during work hours, PT ad nauseum during work hours, coffee & doughnuts over work hours, etc, etc, etc........... yetch!!!


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## redmond (7 Oct 2005)

Where i work (which i wont state or some of you might wanna beat me up  ;D) i see LOTS of fat people in uniforms. I let it go if its the commissionaires, they've been on this planet long enough anyways. But i see younger adults (mid 20s to 30s) in army uniforms who are, um, well rounded. And like somebody stated earlier, it's true that "when some one sees a fat soldier, he/she thinks every other soldier is fat and lazy" because i remember my friend saying something of the like.

But at least most of them work in offices instead of out in the field (which if they were, they wouldn't be fat in the first place).


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## old fart (8 Oct 2005)

Geo:

Following this....

Here we go again...


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## Springroll (8 Oct 2005)

Where my hubby works, if you want to hit the base gym, then go let your boss know and see ya when you're done. They also have regular times that they can all go to the gym together. There have been many times where he has been invited to play a bit of racket ball but had to turn it down because he had some work to finish(he has a lazy work partner who is never at work, or so it seems). On ship, there was never any give and never any encouragement to hit the gym. For me, I work from 8:30-5:30 and still find and hour or so at night(usually at 9pm) for me to go for a run and to try and get my damn push ups mastered before my PT Test on the 28th of this month. I may be losing sleep, but I am also losing weight and feeling good about what I am doing for myself. I am also lucky that a neighbour is in the midst of rejoining the CF and his wife is trying to get into the fire fighting school, so all three of us are motivation for each other, and none of us take no for an answer.

People just have to find somewhere where they can sacrifice an hour(for me I sacrifice my hour of CSI) for the betterment of their health, and many need the motivation to do it.


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## BernDawg (8 Oct 2005)

It is possible to find time to do PT or extra PT if you desire.  In my home unit I wrote a memo to the requisite authorities and, lo and behold, I was granted an extra 45 min per unit pt period (3x per week).  Here in Alert my super allows us to hit the gym at 1500 daily (operational requirements notwithstanding).  My self I prefer to go to the gym in the morning (0500).  That way the time is mine to do with as I please.  What's the point you ask?  You gotta wanna!  I, myself, am rather round in appearance however I do my job, pass my express test, and DAG green for tours and operations (hence my current position).  Physical appearance is only one indicator of physical fitness.  Do not judge a book by the cover.  At least red the freakin' prologue.
OK I feel sufficiently vented now.  Carry on.


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## Daidalous (9 Oct 2005)

I do have to agree with you on that.   I myself  am about 15 pounds over weight  but I can still jog 6 km no prob, do 50 pushups  and 30 situps in 1 min.   But i look at it that if I lose these 15 pounds.   I will be able, to do more,  plus it might  increase my life span by a few years.    The idea of trading fast food and big meals ( excluding   x-mas  and thanksgiving)   for a few extra years on life, is seems  like the best investment  I can think of.


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## Springroll (9 Oct 2005)

Daidalous said:
			
		

> I do have to agree with you on that.     I myself   am about 15 pounds over weight   but I can still jog 6 km no prob, do 50 pushups   and 30 situps in 1 min.     But i look at it that if I lose these 15 pounds.     I will be able, to do more,   plus it might   increase my life span by a few years.      The idea of trading fast food and big meals ( excluding     x-mas   and thanksgiving)     for a few extra years on life, is seems   like the best investment   I can think of.



I am also 15 lbs over my goal weight, but it doesn't really bug me. The key to losing the weight is to continue to be active all the time and eat 6X's a day. I like those new bran bars they have. they are great with a small yogurt on the side to dip it into.


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## S McKee (13 Oct 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I doubt it was "Fail" or "Med Excused".   Those make the member look bad.
> 
> "Not Tested" would require the supervisor to explain in the narrative why this member was not tested.   That could reflect poorly on the supervisor.
> 
> Likey it was "Passed" or Exempt". No explanation or obfuscation required.



The "not tested" is usually for those who are medically excused, temp or permanent categories


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## Haggis (13 Oct 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> The "not tested" is usually for those who are medically excused, temp or permanent categories



Then what's the "Med Excused" box used for? ;D

"Not Tested" is used for those members who cannot/do not attempt the fitness test for reasons other than medical.   Such reasons could be:

-isolated posting;
-no facilites to test at;
-no CFPSA at the location;
-operational commtments;   or

-refused to do it;
-missed the test;
-procrastination.

Putting "Med Excused" on a PER needs no futher explanation.   "Not Tested" does.


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## Springroll (14 Oct 2005)

When we were posted to the US, hubby was told that all CF personel were excused from doing the testing due to the location, and that the US standards are not the same as ours. 

During the last year we were there, they were able to get a PSP tester down there to test the guys, and I must say that those people were pretty ticked since some of them had almost 4 years without any sort of testing(some large guys down there!!).


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## Daidalous (14 Oct 2005)

What I do not under stand , as in a US posting or ot another allied country posting is,   foreign military's should have some form of PSP staff be it military or civy.  How hard is it to have the PT test instructions  faxed or emailed to the base you are at, and do the test.  it is not rocket science,   hell you could even send the stupid  20 MSR music with the email and just burn it to a Cd and play it   Then  email or fax the results back.


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## geo (14 Oct 2005)

Daidalous,
you would think....
for the most part, while you are detached to them, you are considerd an outsider (to a certain extent) and not asked / expected to undergo all of the training & evaluating that their own people do.... also, some of their boys & girls don't appear to get much of an evaluation either.... some big boys in dem dar ranks.


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## buzgo (14 Oct 2005)

The 20 MSR is not even a "CF invention." AFAIK anyone with the right certification can run the test. The same goes for the step-test that is used for recruiting.


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## Haggis (15 Oct 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> The 20 MSR is not even a "CF invention." AFAIK anyone with the right certification can run the test. The same goes for the step-test that is used for recruiting.



True.  Most Ontario police services use it for recruit selection as well.


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## bossi (19 Oct 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> I am also 15 lbs over my goal weight, but it doesn't really bug me. The key to losing the weight is to continue to be active all the time and eat 6X's a day. I like those new bran bars they have. they are great with a small yogurt on the side to dip it into.



I'm confused - are you giving us advice on how to remain 15 lbs over your goal weight ... ?
(i.e. just out of curiousity, I checked with a professional/licensed dietician and asked about the bran bar and yohgurt diet - never heard of it, but did mention that it would be sounder advice to remind everybody of the necessity of remaining hydrated - simple rule of thumb is one eight ounce glass of water per ten lbs of body weight, per day ... gee, I love "rules of thumb" ... but, I digress ...)


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## Springroll (19 Oct 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> simple rule of thumb is one eight ounce glass of water per ten lbs of body weight, per day ... gee, I love "rules of thumb" ... but, I digress ...)



As a general guideline, most adults need about three quarts of fluid each day. Much of that water comes from food, so 8-12 eight ounce glasses a day is a common recommended intake. You may need to drink more water if the weather is very warm or very dry, if you are exercising, or if you are taking certain medications. If you take in too much water to quickly, you can suffer from water intoxication, even if you drink a lot of water, as long as you drink over time as opposed to intaking an enormous volume at one time. The kidneys can process up to 15 litres a day for a healthy adult. The bottom line is this: it's possible to drink too much water. The glass of water per 10lbs of weight seems a little high to me. The average person loses ten cups (where one cup = eight ounces) of fluid per day but also takes in four cups of water from food, leaving a need to drink only six glasses to make up the difference. Too much water can be just as bad as too little.


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## bossi (19 Oct 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> As a general guideline, most adults need about three quarts of fluid each day. Much of that water comes from food, so 8-12 eight ounce glasses a day is a common recommended intake. You may need to drink more water if the weather is very warm or very dry, if you are exercising, or if you are taking certain medications. If you take in too much water to quickly, you can suffer from water intoxication, even if you drink a lot of water, as long as you drink over time as opposed to intaking an enormous volume at one time. The kidneys can process up to 15 litres a day for a healthy adult. The bottom line is this: it's possible to drink too much water. The glass of water per 10lbs of weight seems a little high to me. The average person loses ten cups (where one cup = eight ounces) of fluid per day but also takes in four cups of water from food, leaving a need to drink only six glasses to make up the difference. Too much water can be just as bad as too little.



"... most adults ..."?  Does this include sedentary office workers, etc. (as opposed to active combat arms soldiers, etc.)?  I do agree, however, with your comment re: weather/exercising.
three quarts (Imperial) = 120 oz = 15 eight oz glasses (okay for a person who weighs 150 lbs)
15 litres = 527.926 oz = 66 eight oz glasses (okay for a person who weighs 660 lbs ... hmmm ...)

Sorry - you've got me at a disadvantage - I only know where the dietician I consulted got her degree and license - not sure where you got yours ...


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## armyvern (19 Oct 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> As a general guideline, most adults need about three quarts of fluid each day. Much of that water comes from food, so 8-12 eight ounce glasses a day is a common recommended intake. You may need to drink more water if the weather is very warm or very dry, if you are exercising, or if you are taking certain medications. If you take in too much water to quickly, you can suffer from water intoxication, even if you drink a lot of water, as long as you drink over time as opposed to intaking an enormous volume at one time. The kidneys can process up to 15 litres a day for a healthy adult. The bottom line is this: it's possible to drink too much water. The glass of water per 10lbs of weight seems a little high to me. The average person loses ten cups (where one cup = eight ounces) of fluid per day but also takes in four cups of water from food, leaving a need to drink only six glasses to make up the difference. Too much water can be just as bad as too little.



Holy smokes!! That was confusing!! Does 4 XL Black Timmies count? That's it. That's all I drink. Besides the occasional rye and coke (a couple a month). No milk, no water... I subsist on Timmies (that's probably a good explanation for the fact that I never sleep!!)


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## Springroll (19 Oct 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Sorry - you've got me at a disadvantage - I only know where the dietician I consulted got her degree and license - not sure where you got yours ...



I got some of my information from when I was attending school to be a Resident Care Attendant(got it from the BScN teachers we had teaching us) and from my doctor and the dietician I consulted about 6 months ago before I started working out. Also, if you do a search on the internet, there is a ton of information around the medical sites about it.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Oct 2005)

> Besides the occasional rye and coke (a couple a month)



ya I have a couple a month too


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Oct 2005)

Proly a couple...........of gallons.


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## armyvern (19 Oct 2005)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> ya I have a couple a month too



Get used to it... it's that old 2/man/ rule coming into play here!! I am well trained!! Only the first one and the last one count!!  ;D


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## geo (19 Oct 2005)

One, two, another, and another, and another, and another........................ and another, etc..
see: only two


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## GO!!! (20 Oct 2005)

Springroll,

While water toxicity is a medical possibility, I defy you to find a pertinent example in the recent past, as it relates to this discussion. I have consumed in excess of 17-20L of water in a day, (in 50C heat though), and 12-15L while training for endurance races in the summer months.

There are no deleterious effects of thirst - based water consumption other than excessive urination.

You would vomit clear water several times before you could bring your hydration levels to anything near "toxic".

I would advise you not to spread this nonsense about being too hydrated, especially given that many rookie soldiers and athletes read this thread, and could be injured by this incorrect info.


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## Springroll (20 Oct 2005)

Well, it is a very real possibility and just because you have not had problems does not mean that others won't. Too say that I am spreading nonsense is complete nonsense. Here are a few links for those interested in learning more about Hyponatremia or also known as Water Intoxication.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/hydration/a/hyponatremia.htm

http://www.jnj.com/news/jnj_news/20031030_105713.htm

http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT/cnoteShowLfts.asp?fname=02052&title=LIQUIDS+AND+HYDRATION+FOR+ATHLETES+&cid=HTHLTH


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## GO!!! (20 Oct 2005)

From your references...

"Participants in extreme athletic events, such as marathons and triathlons.."

 ·	If an athlete's blood levels of sodium are low, he may also be confused, have trouble balancing and rarely may have seizures. Eat salty foods the week before competition, and drink liquids that have sodium to prevent low blood sodium. "

"Marathon runners  approaching the starting line this year..."

I'm trying Springrolls, but I'm having a hard time drawing a comparison between someone who runs twice a week to extreme athletes and marathon runners. 

These people are at risk of hyponatremia because they are SWEATING not because they are drinking! Hyponatremia is caused by low blood sodium, not excessive water consumption.

Once again, please get your facts straight before you make claims on this forum, where you may be mistaken for someone knowledgeable. 

As far as I can tell, you are neither an extreme athlete nor a marathon runner. I am, and have been, both. 

Water consumption is good for you - drink until your pee is clear, it helps you lose weight, aids in digestion and regulates all of the bodily functions.

Worst case scenario, you drink too much water, and feel a bit nauseous for a while, then pee alot - no harm done.


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## Springroll (21 Oct 2005)

I do not appreciate you posting to me the way you are. 
What I have posted is not mis-information, it is FACT. 

I used to be an very serious athlete a long time ago, and even back then these facts were known. In elementray school these things were known. Now that I have been getting myself back into shape, I made sure I consulted my physician first, and she even warned me about intaking too much water. It is not an unknown fact. It was even brought up during my nurse aid training(Rresident Care Attendant) back in 1999.

I participated in the Royal Victoria Marathon twice before I was even 17 years old. I also participated in three a few triathalons while in high school. Not to forget to meantion my trips to the city and BC track Finals more than just a couple times. To make it sound like I have no experience at all with any serious physical activity is just rude and childish.

Can you present some facts to back up your side that this condition does NOT exist? 
Just because you have not had any issues with it does NOT mean someone else won't. 
The best bet is to present ALL information to people, not just what you feel is true and let them determine what they will do from there.


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## bossi (21 Oct 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> ... The best bet is to present ALL information to people, not just what you feel is true and let them determine what they will do from there.



Exactly.  You have just hoisted yourself by your own petard.
I'd like to thank GO!!! for jumping into this discussion (no para pun intended ...), and forcefully re-stating what I was also trying to point out - YOU presented "just what you feel is true" (and, it's pathetic to see your IA of having a hissy fit whenever somebody disagrees with you - you really are a piece of work).

Furthermore, GO!!! is 100% correct when he points out that many people read these discussions, and it is vital to dispell urban myths, rumours and incorrect information.

Specifically, many readers of Army.ca are soldiers or people appyling to be soldiers.  They need information tailored to their very distinct environment.  In this regard, it is an absolute fact that soldiers deployed on operations are exposed to climates and physical challenges much different from sedentary bumps on logs (e.g. during the Gulf War, troops in Kuwait had to drink huge amounts of water in order to remain safely hydrated - this is because they were sweating their butts off, while wearing body armour in a hot climate.  Ditto for Afghanistan, or any other mission in a hot/tropical climate).

Unfortunately, my reference is packed away in a box of books (because I just moved), or I'd  gladly whip it out and show you.

Do us all a favour:  Take a back seat for a change, and stop pretending you're a valued contributor to these forums.  It is a fact that you are rubbing far too many people the wrong way, and I'd like to offer my personal sympathies to your "hubby" - he must have the patience of a saint.  I no longer do.


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## Springroll (21 Oct 2005)

I thought this topic was under Fat Troops on the Street, not Keeping Soldiers Hydrated.

None of what i presented and posted was false or "what i feel to be true". If it was, then those links must be my own personal websites.
I have done nothing wrong with posting information that is readily available on the internet about the subject at hand. I have asked to see some proof that the condition does NOT exist and will wait until I see it.

Now, I can understand what you are saying about keeping our soldiers safe while they are deployed to places of extreme heat and that they do need to drink alot of water to replace what they are sweating out, but for someone(fat troops) to be getting into shape and drinking that much water here in Canada is just absurd. 

If I feel I have something beneficial to add to a topic, then I will. Just because I started off on the wrong foot when I joined this site does not mean I am doing so now. I also do not like you insulting me. I have not resorted to such tactics and would hope that you would treat me with the same courtesy as I have extended to you.

Now back onto topic....


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## geo (21 Oct 2005)

Clang.....
everyone back to their corner.
Time for a drink of water & a breather.


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## Kat Stevens (21 Oct 2005)

Noooooo, not water....I'm meeeeelllltiiiing....... ;D


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## Cloud Cover (21 Oct 2005)

Can I just ask, when you people are referring to "water toxicity" are you referring to third area storage of water in the body, or some sort of negative blood cell effects from too much water?


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## Kat Stevens (21 Oct 2005)

Basically, it's the dilution of electrolytes, causing an imbalance.  I would imagine some form of salt pills would alleviate the problem in tropical areas.  My Dad served in Kenya in the 50's (Mau Mau), and they lined up for their weeklies.  As long as your a relatively healthy individual, you would need to drink a buttload of water to be effected.


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## kcdist (21 Oct 2005)

Wow,

Although relatively new here, I know a hissy fit when I see one...I would recommend Bossi take a cold shower. Perhaps I misunderstood what the 'Directing Staff' label meant, but I didn't think it was a license to make personal attacks on contributors and/or imply that some posters are more equal and deserving than others.

You can all relax in the knowledge that only the most challenged would consider visiting this site in order to glean water consuption tips from the pros....


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## GO!!! (21 Oct 2005)

I'm going to try one last time before pulling pole on this "discussion".

Hyponatremia is a lack of salt in the body.

It is caused by performing SEVERAL HOURS of intense physical training or work in an extreme environment, followed by drinking a large amount of water, without supplementing with salt. This causes a dilution of the remaining salt in the body.

Hyponatremia is NOT caused by working out for an hour, then drinking several glasses of water. You may feel sick to your stomach for a short while, but you are not suffering from this condition. 

If you are performing 2 hours or less of cardio, or the equivalent work/rest/water ratio (see army pam on desert working conditions) you are not at risk of hyponatremia.

If you are just starting out as an athlete, it is not a risk for you, unless you are malnourished, or operating in a very hot climate.

In addition to this, the average Canadian consumes 3-5 times the daily reccomended allowance of sodium (salt), so the idea of a rookie athlete suffering from this condition is minimal.

Personally, I find that after long periods of PT, I crave salt, which is just my body stocking up again. Medically though, there is nothing wrong.

Anyhoo, I too have grown tired of Springroll's incessant bleating on a matter she is obviously sorely lacking experience or knowledge in, and will now respectfully retire.

REMEMBER - DRINK AS MUCH WATER AS YOU CAN STOMACH - IT IS GOOD FOR YOU!!


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## buzgo (21 Oct 2005)

GO!!! has provided the best information so far on this whole hyponatremia discussion. 

I participated in several sprint distance adventure races this summer, up to 90 km in distance and through sensible use of electrolyte drinks like Gatorade and e-load was NEVER in danger of this condition. As a matter of fact I probably had too much sodium intake.  Like GO!!! said, the average person isn't going to encounter this problem, and if you are involved in marathons, ultras, ar or whatever, with simple precautions (drink sports drinks) you will be okay.... 

If you are working out for an hour or two, you probably don't even need to use sport drinks, just use plain water and eat sensibly.


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## muskrat89 (21 Oct 2005)

I am locking this up. Too far off topic, and it seems even the tangent has been settled. If someone else wants to open up a new topic on fat troops, be my guest.

kcdist - Thanks for the help, but the Owner polices the Mods here, when (rarely) required. For terrible trangressions by anybody, including Mods - we always encourage everyone to use the "Report.." button. kcdist - PM inbound


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