# Ambulance Replacement (Mega thread)



## nsmedicman

Is there any recent word on a replacement for the LSVW ambulance?


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## Thompson_JM

Ive seen an F450 set up as a Military Crash Amb in Ottawa at the war museum a few years back... i dont think it was going to be a replacement per say, (talking to the people at the display) but they said there are a few in the system... As I said I think it was a COTS purchase to fill a specific short term Requirement, and not intended as a replacement... that was the impression I got.... but that was also two years ago at a static display... Im sure there are people on here with a better ear to the ground then I.


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## rogsco

The F450 amb was purchased for the Fd Hosp, but some have also been distributed out to Fd Ambs. There was a vehcile survey that came out from Ottawa (last fall?) that was asking about the wants/needs for a COTS to replace LSVW (not just ambs) like the Milverado's replaced the Iltis. Nothing more heard since the survey was done. I suspect the LS will be with us for a while longer.


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## Donut

That's unfortunate, there're some really capable cots-suitable 4wd ambulances out there, most far superior to the LSVW.

Does anyone know if unsat condition reports have been sent up?  I know that's probably a stupid question, but if we've never identified it as a piece of shite, we can't complain when they aren't replaced or fixed.

DF


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## nsmedicman

Unfortunately the LSVW was, and still is a POS. Apparently, at one time it may have been a fairly good vehicle. Whatever was done to the design once we received it, I have no idea. Unfortunately as well, we may be stuck with it for some time. Bring back the CUCV amb!!!  ;D


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## Armymedic

Bison all the way, baby. Too bad its armoured. Then the 450's do on-road fine. We need the Euro's Gwagon version of an amb for us here.


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## nsmedicman

I would love to see Bisons in PRes Fd Ambs.....but I don't think that it's going to happen within my career....Would settle for the amb modules off the LSVW, refurbished and mounted on a new 1 ton or 5/4 ton 4X4 chassis.....Ford, GM, Dodge.....doesn't really matter. Even a commercially produced 4x4 ambulance would probably work.....

What about a vehicle like this one? Just a thought.


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## xo31@711ret

Nice looking amb, but I doubt we'll ever see one like it!

-ger


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## medic269

Nice and compact.  Does it use the 35a/p stretcher setup with antlers?  Only thing I wouldnt like is the cage separating the driver's cockpit from the back...but then again I'm used to civie trucks.


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## CBH99

I worked as an EMT up on the rigs for a bit, before getting hired with the City of Calgary as an EMT-P.

The service I worked for (One of the better ones, fortunately) invested in modified SUV's as BLS units.  We had rollon/rollout stretchers, defib. capability in the back, and enough room for one EMT to work while the other drove.  Unlike the newer ambulances used by the City of Calgary, we had to stop the vehicle anytime we needed to defib. a patient (Which was only once) - however, the vehicle itself was quite good.  I'm unfamiliar with the training and scope of practice of Army medics and Fd Amb. units - however - this could be a possible solution?  

What is the scope of practice for Fd Amb. anyhow?  I know this is probably covered on another thread, however, for the sake of knowing what possible solutions exist to replace our ambulances, we need to know exactly what the Fd. Amb. units require.  Do they require BLS units, or ALS units?


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## Armymedic

nsmedicman said:
			
		

> What about a vehicle like this one? Just a thought.



Not a bad thought, sort of a mod of a milcot style truck. That would be good as a training/safety veh for the res Fd Ambs, and as a good temp replacement for the reg fd ambs. Only draw back is load capability. Most evac platforms we need should be able to carry 4 or so litter loads.



			
				CBH99 said:
			
		

> What is the scope of practice for Fd Amb. anyhow?  I know this is probably covered on another thread, however, for the sake of knowing what possible solutions exist to replace our ambulances, we need to know exactly what the Fd. Amb. units require.  Do they require BLS units, or ALS units?



There isn't a scope. You have levels of training from baisc FA to trauma surgeon working at fd ambs. You can not nor should not limit your evac platform to a skill level, but maintain one level for all. Currently our LSVW ambs have a basic load for BLS and 450's and Bisons have a ALS basic load, but that is as they sit collecting dust on them. They are quickly upgraded as the need sees fit.


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## nsmedicman

The F450s would probably be a good solution, but the more experienced members of the forum might disagree. The problem with them is that they don't go very far from a well-maintained road. Then again, has anyone ever gotten a LSVW stuck on an icy hill with a slight grade???  ;D


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## The Heathen

I got qualified on the 450 crash amb last month.  It has some great features, tons of room, lots of storage, and a hydraulic lift on either side, so it is still capable of carrying 4 patients.  On the downside, its as if no one really thought out what we need access to quickly, and there is no place to put anything other than medical supplies.  For it to work as an LS Amb replacement, it would need somewhere to store rucks etc.  Also, it's mad drifty on gravel roads, especially in the wind.  Plus, the vehicle itself is LONG, and has little ground clearance, it wouldn't do well in the field.

So a replacement it is not.  Sweet vehicle, has AC and a CD player, so I'm willing to forgive a lot.  It makes range taskings so comfortable, and in that way, it is way better than the LS. 

The problem is we need a vehicle that goes X country, and carries 4 patients  + medic + kit.  Something tacked on the G wagon might do it.  If the LS just had a more powerful engine, better shocks, not steel brakes, and constant servicing, it would be a fine vehicle.


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## medicineman

I miss the Unimog amb I had in Croatia in the mid 90's - the thing could carry everything you need and then some, had high ground clearance, and would literally go ANYWHERE (with very few exceptions).  It was 12 speed manual - 8 gears forward, 4 reverse and ungoverned, could really motor.  Due to the high ground clearance, there was hydraulic assist for the litter racks.

If we want to stay a little closer to home, play a bit with the old CUCV's and they're pretty good platforms.  I just remember some problems with the litter rack pins sometimes breaking, that annoying hub lock for 4x4 and of course the heaters were a bit of a problem.  The AC in  summer, the walk through cab and space more than made up for the other problems.

My 2 pennies.

MM


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## nsmedicman

medicineman.....

Did it look something like this??

This is actually a Danish Army model....


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## George Wallace

medicineman said:
			
		

> I miss the Unimog amb I had in Croatia in the mid 90's - the thing could carry everything you need and then some, had high ground clearance, and would literally go ANYWHERE (with very few exceptions).  It was 12 speed manual - 8 gears forward, 4 reverse and ungoverned, could really motor.  Due to the high ground clearance, there was hydraulic assist for the litter racks.



All that great kit that came from 4 CMBG.  We even had those big MAN Tank Transporters.....only four, but.......what a truck........and real 10 Tonne MAN Transports......not those 7 Tonne (10 ton) Steyr Percheron trucks that we landed up with.......and those buses.......

I am greatly disappointed in our LSVW; White Stars knock off of the Italian Iveco which is the Italian knock off of the German Unimog.


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## medicineman

nsmedicman - Mine was all white with the targets attached, both blue and red.

George - what was really ironic was my partner was in 4 Fd Amb and the truck we had was his in the Amb Coy there.  Small world.  I loced that beast - unfortunately, I had to trade her in for a different one after my steering box got damaged, as we weren't allowed to canniblalize for spare parts and none were available (courtesy of both our Gov't and the UN).

MM


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## medicineman

My beast is the one on the right (well the only Umimog there really) old 83C2.


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## Blackadder1916

nsmedicman said:
			
		

> Did it look something like this??
> This is actually a Danish Army model....



That one is an older U404 model.  The ones that 4 Fd Amb got in 1986 were U1300L models.  They had excellent cross-country capability and had been acquired to replace the M113 tracks as well as to augment the 5/4 ton ambs.  IRRC we had 6 or 7, the only ones in the Cdn inventory.  They were bigger than the U404.  Lots more payload, longer wheel base, higher ground clearance & fording depth.  They were also diesel vice gas in the 404s which had a reputation for sucking gas faster than a soldaten swilling beer on a Friday night.


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## nsmedicman

I guess one can dream.... ;D


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## nsmedicman

I have to ask a question.....what is the black post on the front of the Bison with the black ball on top......trying not to sound like a dumba**..... ;D


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## George Wallace

A "Winki Dink".


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## nsmedicman

;D   You're kidding.....right????


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## George Wallace

No.

What do you want to call it?  A Cherry?  A Gumball Machine?  Snow Plow?  Whatever?  It is the Light (Flasher - Red or Blue) for the Amb.


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## nsmedicman

Ok....I can see a red strobe further to the rear.....


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## George Wallace

Well......actually....now that I got the photo to enlarge a little more.......I am wrong......It is too big for a GPS antenna, but looks like it is some sort of Sat Uplink.  Your guess is as good as mine......sorry.


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## nsmedicman

No problem at all....


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## medicineman

I thought it was the GPS antenna at first too, but that is on the crew commander's side if I recall correctly and is pretty short.  Of course, it might be an add on satellite comms unit like George said or maybe a strobe for IFF.

MM


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## old medic

Just for Fun, Here's a few from my photo collection,

The F60 CWT CMP, my occasional avatar, The old M886 Dodge Power Wagons, and a 5/4.


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## nsmedicman

The CUCV 5/4 brings back memories....worked in one when I was a Med A in the PRes in the late 80's early 90's...


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## DSB

CUCV.....we still work out of them!

DSB


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## nsmedicman

The ones we had we a little newer that the one in the photo....it had rectangular headlights....thinking mid-80s vintage...


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## medicineman

I remeber the first ex we took our CUCV's out - it was the last we had the clip on crosses and american camo on.  The top cross blew off the vehicle as we were driving up Douglas St in Victoria, skipped off the road, nearly decapitated a motorcyclist and buried a corner into someone's windshield.  We got the flip flops put on the next week...

MM


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## old medic

Two different beasts.  The 5/4 were a 1975-76 chevrolet with a gas V8. The boxes from the 5/4 were 
all overhauled and remounted. You now know them as the box on the LSVW. 

The CUCV M1010 Ambs replaced the dodge power wagons, and were 1986-87 1 ton Chevrolets 
and had a much longer and better patient compartment (box) on them. Longer, more upper storage
cabinets, room for a large oxygen tank, a small but nasty attendants seat, better interior lighting, 
rear patient air conditioner, pullman hatch between the front cab and the box and front bucket seats.
Much nicer riding than the 5/4 or the LS.


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## DSB

one of my favorite features = bucket seats!


DSB


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## nsmedicman

That sounds like the vehicle I was in!!!  ;D


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## The Heathen

medicineman said:
			
		

> I remeber the first ex we took our CUCV's out - it was the last we had the clip on crosses and american camo on.  The top cross blew off the vehicle as we were driving up Douglas St in Victoria, skipped off the road, nearly decapitated a motorcyclist and buried a corner into someone's windshield.  We got the flip flops put on the next week...
> 
> MM



HAHAHA.  What a make work project!

There's a fantastic poetic nature to being killed by a Red Cross.  

Though I imagine the Red Crescent would be more dangerous.

Update on the new Crash Amb, it can really book it on gravel roads, 110 no problem.  The comm system is also beatifully arranged.  Only problem is that is is difficult for the driver to change frequencies while on the move because the buttons are behind you.  You can press them, but when zipping down gravel at high speeds you kind of want to watch ahead of you.  On the plus side, there are 2 hand mikes, one that works the PA and internal comms, and another that links you to the outside world.  With a few buttons presses you can move between whatever freq you need, Range Control, fire, MIR, whatever.  So that was nice.

And the PA system is just hilarious

"Attention Cattle, you are impeding the progress of Her Majesty's Ambulance"


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## old medic

Lets see if we can get this focused into some sort of usuable topic.

The Ambulance boxes on the LSVW are now 31 years old, and were outdated 
when the 5/4s were disposed of. 

What features would you want to see on it's replacement?


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## Blackadder1916

old medic said:
			
		

> The Ambulance boxes on the LSVW are now 31 years old, and were outdated
> when the 5/4s were disposed of.



Actually, IIRC, they are only just over 29 years old, but they were refurbished before remounting on the LSVWs.  One of the first jobs I was given when I arrived at 1 Fd Amb in 1977 was to help the mechs put the boxes on the 5/4 chassis.  While they were slightly larger than the 3/4s they replaced, we had complaints about them from the get-go.


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## nsmedicman

1. Utilize a chassis that has enough power to do the job.

2. The ability to carry 4 litters has been mentioned on here.

3. A/C front and back

4. 4 wheel drive.

5. Enough ground clearance to be able to venture off the beaten path to evac casualties.


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## nsmedicman

I found this photo of the new Aussie Amb...


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## Donut

Features, hmm, lets see:

A big honking oxygen tank (or a LOX system, or an oxygen concentrator system) with 4 outlets (one per stretcher)

The ability to hold 2 Cots and 2 litters or 4 litters

Lots of internal storage space (I liked the over the cab storage in the Rover I had in Bosnia)

A hatch between front and back

AC

suitable monitor to include NIBP, SP02, Rate & rythm

Power outlets for infusion pumps, incubators, etc.

Built in electric suction

Blue overhead lights internally

Lots of external storage compartments, a 120v converter kit for external power supply, a boiling vessel, excellent cross country mobility, superior suspension, light mast a la tech rescue trucks.

And while we're wishin', how about dedicated air evac birds?

DF


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## Armymedic

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> And while we're wishin', how about dedicated air evac birds?



Hell, yes. And the freedom to use them when ever we need to, without all the bureaucratic red tape and castling.


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## Donut

From today's National Post, fair dealings and all.  The emphasis is mine, if you didn't know:


$18B bolstering just a start
Air Force head: 75 aircraft on order: Planes in service now will need replacing soon
  
Chris Wattie 
National Post 


Friday, August 25, 2006


The head of the Canadian air force says that $18-billion and 75 new aircraft are only a start at rebuilding an air force that was at one time the fourth largest in the world.

Lieutenant-General Steve Lucas told the National Post yesterday the purchases of new heavy transport planes, fleets of new helicopters and replacements for the military's Hercules cargo planes are a good beginning, but more will soon be needed.

"Not only can we see the light at the end of the tunnel, we can see beyond the end of the tunnel and we are moving rapidly to that," he said during an interview with the Post editorial board.

Ottawa announced in June that it will buy 16 CH-47 Chinook heavy lift helicopters and four C-17 Globemaster cargo jets for a total cost of $8-billion. Another 17 aircraft will be bought to replace Canada's C-130 Hercules transport planes for about $4.9-billion.

That comes on top of a 2004 announcement to buy 28 new ship-borne helicopters for $5-billion, a contract that has been mired in legal action since the Sikorsky S-92 won the competition.

"On the [air] mobility side we're going to have much more capability than we've had in the past," Lt.-Gen. Lucas said.

But he said he will eventually need even more planes, including new search and rescue aircraft, replacements for the CF-18 fighters, new surveillance aircraft and ground attack and  medical evacuation helicopters -- all within the next decade.

"I still believe that we are going to need escort helicopters for our Chinooks for example ... with both a sensor package and a 'shoot' capability," he said, "followed by probably something like joint strike fighter, long-range patrol aircraft ... or some other surveillance platform."

Paul Manson, a former air force general and chief of defence staff, said the latest spending is just enough to help the military catch up after decades of neglect. Over the past 10 years, the air force lost more than half of its aircraft to age and funding cuts.

"There's an awful lot of catch-up going on," he said. "The need for the air force in particular became so critical that the government had to make these major announcements."

The ageing Hercules fleet was in particularly bad shape, with older aircraft beginning to fall out of service because the cost of refurbishing them was so high.

And Mr. Manson said it will take "an impressive amount of money" to bring the air force back up to strength.

"The trend from this government is very good, but the amounts to address this shortfall will be huge," he said. "It takes 10 years to bring these programs, these new aircraft, on-line."

"You can't just go out and buy these things at the store."

Mr. Manson said Canada's fleet of CF-18 fighter-bombers, introduced into service more than 25 years ago, will have to be replaced by 2018. "And they've got to start thinking seriously about what we'll get to replace it now," he said.

The CP-140 Aurora long-range patrol aircraft also just completed an upgrade, but are just as old and will need replacing in the next decade.

Lt.-Gen. Lucas said he is enthused at the prospect of introducing so many new aircraft into service, starting with the giant C-17 cargo planes which will be delivered to Canada within the next year.

"The challenge for us ... over the next couple of years is being able to do all the things we're trying to do. We're going to be continuing to operate old equipment at a high operational tempo at the same time as we're making a huge transition from the old to the new aircraft," he said.

"It is a huge amount of work that has to be done within a relatively short period of time."

Chinook heavy lift choppers are to be delivered to the Canadian Forces by 2010, and Lt.-Gen. Lucas added: "We're looking at introducing that particular platform in theatre [in Afghanistan] even sooner."

And he said the air force will eventually send its own attack aircraft to Afghanistan to support the 2,300 Canadian soldiers now there on the ground. "I would like to see us make that contribution," he said. "At some point in time I think we'll be called forward: I just don't know when that time might be."

cwattie@nationalpost.com


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## MommyMedic

Boy oh boy, what a cool history lesson, I have never seen such an interesting collection of pretty ambulance trucks. I am truly surprised at just how long some of you have been around!  (We won't talk about what I was doing in 1977. Great year by the way.) I am not using the word Old or at all saying that's a bad thing - I am just saying, it is really neat to see the different possibilities for amb variants. I realize now that even if it seems we've had the same old kit forever, nothing is permanent and the equipment does evolve. Eventually. 
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a CUCV? And is that new Crash Amb a civvie pattern box truck? Pictures please Heathen for us slow kids. 
I was recently doing no-duff coverage out of an LSVW amb, for the first time since going to work on civvie side, and I am seeing that thing with a whole new set of eyes. I had grave misgivings about the deficiencies of the pt care set-up. I think it was mentioned on here about the importance of informing on the difficulties we encounter in trying to perform our duties - I am going to send up my concerns when the new season opens next week. However I also feel a need to emphasize the features that absolutely must change, in order to provide acceptable prehospital care. 
OK, I can't figure out how to quote stuff so sorry to repeat points, but here goes: 
SUCTION. Battery-powered portable, with adapter to charge in truck, and Wall Mounted. And I'd like to see the V Vac traded for a ResQVac. Reliable, accessible suction, that can actually do the job. There is no excuse for not having what kit we do have on-hand serviceable and with the right accessories - as in more than one Yankauer and proper tubing - but even if my manual and 02 powered kit had been in perfect condition, I still feel they would have been inadequate at protecting the airway of someone held merciless on a backboard. 
TRUCK MOUNTED 02 for all pts. Class I intervention for all critical pts, need I say more. (Yes I do, TBI TBI TBI. Did I mention high-flow 02 for all trauma pts??)
2 COTS + 2 LITTERS are a great idea as it is hard to transport in any other posn but supine. I'd like the setup to be more conducive to rolling a boarded pt when vomiting, but I guess with the need for making every amb count (Take as many pts as possible) no variant will get much roomier. 
CONNECTION to the driver compartment - not just comms although I'd settle for those over nothing. Serious safety compromise for the crew to not be able to know what's going on front and back, regardless of pt care issues. 
Venting, AC and heat - enviro needs to be controlled by the attending. Particularly given our high incidence of enviro illnesses. 
Weapon racks in the back. No attending medic should be in the back with a C7 in a perfect world. However I have sat on a loaded rifle. Sh*t happens, so we should just accept it and create proper storage instead of pretending we don't put weapons loose in pt compartments. 
Without being able to protect an airway, the rest is just smoke and mirrors. When you get down to the nitty-gritty - when you actually clamber into the back of the LS, and envision how it's going to go down if you need to suction your pt with that Flynn getup - or if you need to roll that pt while off-road and you can't make any contact with your driver - you realize everything else means jacksh*t and ALS skills don't matter if you can't even safely do first aid. Worse than first aid, if you feel you are risking your pt more by transporting them than the original injury would've in the first place. 
I agree with all the other features listed, but after having to face the reality of the LS Amb, I am adamant that the safety issues need to be addressed soonest and not just when we move on from the current avail veh's.
This is the time of night when I start to get light-headed from the height and fumes of being up on my soapbox; so I'll sumup.  :-X


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## old medic

MommyMedic said:
			
		

> .........but what is a CUCV? And is that new Crash Amb a civvie pattern box truck? Pictures please ..........



Two photos for you... CUCV M1010. All the Ambs were 1986 models.

Exterior passenger side. Note the box side and cab mounted spot lights. Also the 
separate A/C unit on the front of the box.  The diesel burning heater is inside the 
long door at the rear of the box. It worked well, but it's small exhaust pipe just below
the door was good at lighting anything within a few inches of it on fire. 

2nd shot is the interior with the passenger side stretcher raised. The pullman hatch
is slide open and the attendants seat is down. It could be slid the length of the bench
using a small foot pedal.  Also visible are the 24 volt florescent light, and four of the eight
movable hand lamps.  The blue tactical lamp is recessed into the roof and isn't visible 
here. If you look at the foot of the bottom right stretcher, you can also see one of the two
interior light switches.

I can think of one that survived until 2002. I haven't seen any since then.


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## Nfld Sapper

Looks like the one I drove for CFSME  in '04


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## DSB

We have 3 in steele town, (I think the same model).  However, they have storage racks on both sides.  Any the  cam job is a little more low key.

DSB


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## bisonmedic

I was wondering if anyone had heard of a replacement for the Bison Amb. I know we have just had the upgrade of our old units, but I wonder if they have considerd starting to purchase the Amb version of the LAVIII for our use? The US Marines have been using them for a bit and I would like to know if anyone thinks that it is possible or a good idea to purchase these vehicles for the med service. Ideas? Comments?


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## medaid

I was watching a documentary on the US Army Surgical Hospital (forgot which one), and in it, it showed a bradley ambulance. It had the exact, or extremely close set up to the back of our LSVW Ambs, and it also had machine guns (I was stunned), and side gun ports for fighting out of a fire fight... I though...jesus! That is one neat looking thing... I wander when we're going to arm our ambulances... then well...I learned that we've got our guns out and on the Bisons now. Small world eh?


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## bisonmedic

It took a bit to get the C-6 on the Bison, but we have them and they have been used. An ambulance based on a Bradley might be another idea. Having a good mix of track and wheeled ambs is an option. We don't have the 113 amb anymore thank god. The LAVIII varient would be great, with more room and better suspension,etc even though you have to spend more to get more.


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## McG

bisonmedic said:
			
		

> The US Marines have been using them for a bit and ...


The USMC uses first or second generation vehicles that are likely older than our Bisons.

It might not be a bad idea to replace the entier Bison fleet with LAV III based platforms.  We could use the same production run to replace any LAV III that have been lost to combat or accident damages.


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## George Wallace

MCG said:
			
		

> The USMC uses first or second generation vehicles that are likely older than our Bisons.
> 
> It might not be a bad idea to replace the entier Bison fleet with LAV III based platforms.  We could use the same production run to replace any LAV III that have been lost to combat or accident damages.



And they need not have turrets.  They could be like the Stryker Amb versions.


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## Staff Weenie

While I think that nobody here would argue for keeping the current LSVW Ambs, and the current Bison amb fleet, lifecycling the vehicles is a long term procurement thing (read nightmare.....).

If I understand the system correctly, in essence the Army 'owns' all the vehicles - even medical (possibly less the Ford F450 Ambs and a few other small things). They are VMO to the various HS units for our use. Their replacement is thus an Army requirement (DLR issue) to handle. We can identify the need, the preferred vehicle, capability, equipment, etc, but unless the Army says they are going ahead with a project, we will not get a new vehicle.

As an example, we were originally supposed to receive over 120 Bison Ambs. This number was cut back by the Army over and over, until I think that the total will stand around 35 or so. These were also to be allocated two per Reg F Fd Amb, and the rest to the Cbt Arms units for their UMS.

Even if, by some magic pot of gold, CF H Svcs Gp had the money to buy new Ambs, we'd still have to go through the Army. It does sort of make sense, in that ensuring all land components are using common chassis etc, it simplifies the logistical support requirements. It does, however, slow down the whole process considerably, and may mean compromises, as we're only a small player at the bargaining table.

Who knows though - these days, everything is possible, if it can be shown to support Ops.


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## Armymedic

No there is no replacement in the works.
The veh you are thinking about is a Stryker Amb. It is not quite the same vehicle as the LAV 3 but close. It is also huge like a LAV. Almost too big as the passager compartment is larger (more head space) and has no turret. It only mounts a MG on a pintle so there would be min improvement as far as armament.

As long as we run Bison and Coyote fleets, we will have parts for those veh.


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## bisonmedic

I agree that we won't see any type of product in the near future, but if we start now, who knows, maybe one day...
Thanks for the input guys.


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## GINge!

slightly OT;

perhaps someone from DLR might be able to answer, but is the Army Bison fleet being consolidated in order to provide more Ambulances for the HSRs?


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## Staff Weenie

In the short term, I would speculate that the answer is no. Between the deployed Bison Ambs, the Ops Stock, and CMTC stock, there's precious few to go around.

Hopefully, the senior civilian and military personnel in the Govt and DND/CF will find a means to purchase a new fleet of armoured Ambs, but there are just so many competing priorities at the moment. And, with the stocks mentioned above, they can maintain our current theatre requirement - the spot they are truly needed.

Sadly, years of putting of life cycling all of the CF's major platforms & vehs has meant that virtually everything big and mechanical is due to rust out at the same time. So, when the pot 'o' gold is only so big - where does it go?


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## medicineman

I seem to remember a conversation at the DEW factory with one of the reps regarding this when they rolled out the first refurbed Bison Amb - they were looking at taking a few more of the mortar and command variants and cycling them through as ambulances instead of the original intended platforms.

MM


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## bisonmedic

As for the LSVW, we could go back to the CUCV concept for garrison duties and other basic med coverage taskings. Nothing fancy, just the basics. Armoured ambs will be the mainstay of future operations because I don't think a soft-skin amb should be in this neck of the woods.


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## flaps_at_10

The F450 Ambulance came about because of a lack of medical care being seen by the CF community, it is being purchased to act as a base amb, and in most cases will be hard top only.  The ambulance has been issued to many fire halls as the new training that all CF Fire fighters receive is the Canadian Red Cross Emergency Medical Responder course ( 10 days/80 hours) which is most provinces allows them to transport to hopsital.  
These are the same ambulances that you see painted green except these are red and white like the old dodges of yesteryear.


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## Gunner98

flaps_at_10 said:
			
		

> The F450 Ambulance came about because of a lack of medical care being seen by the CF community, it is being purchased to act as a base amb, and in most cases will be hard top only.  The ambulance has been issued to many fire halls as the new training that all CF Fire fighters receive is the Canadian Red Cross Emergency Medical Responder course ( 10 days/80 hours) which is most provinces allows them to transport to hopsital.
> These are the same ambulances that you see painted green except these are red and white like the old dodges of yesteryear.



Flags at 10 - without any info in your profile - you seem to be filled with some interesting info.

The 4-litter with hydraulic version of the  Ford/Demers F-450 Amb was purchased as part of G2536 (15 in total) to transport the stabilized patient from Role 3 to Role 4. The original proto-type was sent to Bagotville.  The 4-litter version are in use in 2 locations overseas at the moment.

AFAIK, the newest "Air Base" version of the F-450 does not have 4-litters with hydraulics.  Some are being acquired through Air Force funds and others are being acquired through the Pre-hospital care initiative.  

The RCMP ERT uses a F-350 Ford/Demers version.


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## Armymedic

bisonmedic said:
			
		

> Armoured ambs will be the mainstay of future operations because I don't think a soft-skin amb should be in this neck of the woods.



Quite right...whoever sent those LSVW ambs over should be shot. For a 4 wheel amb, there are uparmoured versions avail of veh like the Toyota land cruiser, the Gwagon, and HMMVW amb. Thoses would be a good middle ground between our 450's (great road amb) and our bisons (great mech ops amb).


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## flaps_at_10

Well the reason I know about the F450, is because I am PHCI. LOL that is what I do for  a living, I take care of the Mp's, the fuire fighters and the new F450.


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## flaps_at_10

I also remeber a few years back when we received the 1st MILCOTS, the powers to be at Louie St laurent were looking a a box attachment for the milcot as we saw a few post back for the res med units.  What ever happened who knows?  but a few of us went to the demers plant to look at them and they were small, compact but a much better platform than the LSVW.  If I had it my way all med units reg and reserve would get a F450.

I know CTC got a few bisons, but I agree the bison is the way to go, except if you have really muddy terrain....then as much as people slam the 113, I never had problems when I was in it and I actually liked it, besides the heater was a small nuclear reactor.  the only bad thing was track maintenance and having to change a motor, man i hated all that oil......


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## bisonmedic

Crestline Coach makes a series of boxes for ambs that could fill the role. Whatever chassis is chosen, it does'nt matter as long as it can do the job. My preference would be to stick to the MILCOT, just in a reg cab configuration. As well, you would'nt need to have a head-set on to talk to your driver like the LSVW.


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## flaps_at_10

yopu are so right, I personally think Crestline makes a very nice RIG, however whenever you get to big purchases, it has to go to MERX then be tendered and PWGSC controls the purse string.  and they usually have there hands tied over what they choose, besides Quebec always screams blue murder if they don't get to build everything and we always seem to bend.  ( Bombardier)


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## bisonmedic

Oh yes, I forgot about the long drawn out and often useless way we go about getting our kit. For once could they just get stuff that works and proven ? Who knows, maybe someday it could happen.


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