# Having trouble getting medical care after tour



## Kokanee (14 Jun 2010)

I'm hoping that someone here has been in a similar situation before and would be kind enough to share some info to help me out... So here's the deal;

I came back from Tour (TF 3-08) with an N/S spine (x2 herniated discs, nerve damage) in APR 09, and have spent the time since then bouncing around the Ontario Health Care system and my Base Hospital being improperly cared for, misdiagnosed, referred to the wrong specialist, lost documents, docs with tunnel vision etc. At the end of it all, I'm in a situation where I required medical care outside of the country to get fixed.

The IPSC is telling me "we've never heard of the military paying for that, but talk to VA" and VA says "we don't do that"... After a missed PLQ and having to turn down a tour through all this I'm getting to the end of my rope.

Anyway, enough of the sob story, I'm looking for anyone who has gotten treatment outside of the country successfully and wouldn't mind sharing either here or via PM. Any info is much appreciated as I'm out of options and just want to get fixed and back to soldiering.

Thanks,



K


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## EpicBeardedMan (15 Jun 2010)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> I'm hoping that someone here has been in a similar situation before and would be kind enough to share some info to help me out... So here's the deal;
> 
> I came back from Tour (TF 3-08) with an N/S spine (x2 herniated discs, nerve damage) in APR 09, and have spent the time since then bouncing around the Ontario Health Care system and my Base Hospital being improperly cared for, misdiagnosed, referred to the wrong specialist, lost documents, docs with tunnel vision etc. At the end of it all, I'm in a situation where I required medical care outside of the country to get fixed.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry to hear what you're going through after coming back from serving your country. Hopefully someone has the answer you're looking for.


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## jeepsport (15 Jun 2010)

document document document, if they say they can't or won't, or tell you to wait out get them to put it in writing. Do through chain of command, DVA etc, but if you're still getting unfair treatment you have the Ombudsman and /or the media if it's that bad.


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## the 48th regulator (16 Jun 2010)

Is there any documentation, ie CF-98?  If not, have you got a Personal Physician, that has stated that your injuries are attributed to your service.

I find way too many holes in your story.  Before you go to any other source, ie Ombudsmen, or the media, you better have your ducks in order.  If not, you will look like the fool with your pants on the ground.

dileas

tess


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## PMedMoe (16 Jun 2010)

In addition to the comment from Tess, if you sought outside care on your own, without authorization, chances are you won't be covered for it.


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## Kokanee (16 Jun 2010)

Yes, I actually have x 3 CF-98's fully documented and processed w/ witness statements to boot, and there is no question that my injuries are attributable to service. I'm not seeing any "holes" that you speak of;

1) I went overseas;
2) I got hurt;
3) It was documented and I sought medical help; and
4) The type of medical care I need to get better is not avail in Canada, but the medical system insists that I can only be treated in country, actually only in Ontario.

I would prefer to just be fixed as I'm entitled to, and as a career soldier I don't want to go "outside the system" and go crying to the ombudsman or the media. To me the only point that becomes acceptable is if I'm going to get medically released while still broken. At that point I obviously do not have a career to protect anymore, so then it becomes about getting fixed then released.

@tess: I'm going to ask for the benefit of the doubt here, I have all my "ducks in a row" and indeed I've waited over a year without making a deal out of anything until I could get a proper diagnoses, as I felt until then I really didn't have a leg to stand on. But now that I have a diagnoses, the treatment for which is not avail in this country, I feel I have to push or I'll have to make do with a small lump sum and a medical discharge.


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## GAP (16 Jun 2010)

There's a time to be reticent, but there's also a time to get noisy.....why would the system fault you for taking all avenues to getting proper medical care? 

Is the treatment within the bounds approved for Canadian Health Care? (I don't know, but had a friend who wanted Canada to pay for his kid's vitamin treatment for his leukemia....in Mexico..that;s why I ask)

If it's approved fix, then go up the chain of command until you get results....but as others have said, follow the chain...

my  :2c:


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## Kokanee (16 Jun 2010)

@GAP: That's a good question, and a fair one. 

Unfortunately the treatment is not approved within Canada. I require artificial disc replacement (two levels) surgery to repair my injury. Unfortunately this surgery is not available in Canada as our medical system is not advanced enough, indeed as I've found we are rather in the stone age in this segment of medicine. The only place where I could get this surgery is possible the US, and definitely in Germany. To compound the problem, it's about $49k US.

So as I see it, the issue is not that I'm asking for anything frivolous or that it's impossible to repair the damage, just that unfortunately the Canadian health care system is incapable of meeting my needs.


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## the 48th regulator (16 Jun 2010)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> Yes, I actually have x 3 CF-98's fully documented and processed w/ witness statements to boot, and there is no question that my injuries are attributable to service. I'm not seeing any "holes" that you speak of;
> 
> 1) I went overseas;
> 2) I got hurt;
> ...





My bad,

The IPSC, and the VA are correct.  You are seaking alternative medical treatment, not recognized by Health Canada.  Not only that, you expect the county to pay for it.  :  Good luck.....


Why don't you use the money from the VAC Pension, paid out to you, to help cover the treatment?  Just a thought.


BTW, I have some land to sell, cheap.  It kind of swampy, and there are globs of tar like things washing up on the shoreline, however the view is fantastic.

dileas

tess


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## Kokanee (16 Jun 2010)

Obviously I was mistaken when I thought that perhaps by posting here I could get some assistance from my fellow CF brethren,  instead I have people like you tess who think it's funny to taunt and ridicule me, simply because I want to get fixed and back to soldiering.

I'm so glad that you think this forum is a place to shit on people who only want to be done right by the CF, instead of a place to come together and help each other out. It's nice to know that the last year of abject suffering on my part, still soldiering on and working as much as I possibly can while putting up with nothing but flack from the medical system hasn't been wasted; that at the very least it could be something for you to rub my nose in. I hope you feel nice and satisfied with your snide remarks at a wounded member's expense.

Thanks everyone else who was constructive, but obviously I"m asking for assistance in the wrong place.


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## Occam (16 Jun 2010)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> My bad,
> 
> The IPSC, and the VA are correct.  You are seaking alternative medical treatment, not recognized by Health Canada.  Not only that, you expect the county to pay for it.  :  Good luck.....



There was a time when medical marijuana and laser eye surgery weren't approved by Health Canada.  Fortunately, through trials and testing, there was a proven health benefit and those treatments are now recognized.  Medical marijuana is even funded by the country....



> Why don't you use the money from the VAC Pension, paid out to you, to help cover the treatment?  Just a thought.



Sorry, I find this statement offensive.  The VAC pension is not meant to pay for medical treatment; according to the VAC site, the disability award is "meant to recognize and compensate for the non-economic impacts of a service-related disability".

The financial responsibility for treating the busted-up member is VAC's.  If there is an alternative medical treatment which offers promise of relief for a given condition, but is not approved by Health Canada, then VAC should play a role in investigating/lobbying for the possibility of approval of the treatment by Health Canada.

VAC is supposed to be an advocate for the veteran.


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## Nemo888 (16 Jun 2010)

Firstly they do disc replacement at Toronto General. They use the Charite disc from Germany. It is marketed by J&J in Canada. I think it is the best currently on the market. Sadly getting them replaced will not necessarily put you in the shape you need to get your life back. I knew a few surgeons here and probably like me because it is over six months since the injury the chances of a positive surgical outcome are greatly lessened. I would get at least two surgical consults and you MUST have a good MRI(not CAT) when you see them. Timely treatment is very important with lower back injuries. I was told that after 5 years I would be at about the same place with conservative treatments. Which I thought was bull. But now it is almost 5 years since the injury and I am improving. I can even swim now. I thought the surgeon was crazy to tell me to swim for the first two years it hurt so much.

There are laparoscopic surgeries at the University of Rochester, but you pay out of your own pocket. They start at about 25K. The promise of the “best treatment available” is empty I’m afraid.  VAC is not really an option as the lump sum is paltry. I received what I would have got in 6.7 years on the old pension system.  I would strongly recommend staying in and not releasing until all this is worked out.

The other thing you need is an officer advocate. I got so fed up I sent a really disrespectful email to two Lieutenants hoping for some sort of sanction. It worked. I received a nasty email from the CWO. Who I then forwarded the 60+ or so emails over two years I sent\recieved. I then heard from a Major who ripped some serious *** down the chain of command who then became my only point of contact. I was ignored and neglected, but after a few years got an apology. Hopefully your story will not be similar. 

This forum was not really helpful. All I ever got was, “I find way too many holes in your story.” Or “Get the sand out of your vag.” The system breaks down more often than people admit. If I couldn’t get help for years and my MOC was Medic I can imagine others are not doing too well. You get too much recruiting poster sunshine here.

 PM me if you need any advice. I’m just coming out the other end of what you are going through and this forum only insulted me as well.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Jun 2010)

Kokanee, good luck in your quest.

I think you might have got under Tess's skin with your "stone age" comments, maybe a little polish on the presentation might help?


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## McG (16 Jun 2010)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> I don't want to go "outside the system" and go crying to the ombudsman or the media.


The ombudsman is "inside the system" and there for you to use.  If everything else has failed, do not be affraid of this option.


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## Nemo888 (16 Jun 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Kokanee, good luck in your quest.
> 
> I think you might have got under Tess's skin with your "stone age" comments, maybe a little polish on the presentation might help?



I agree with Koknaee's stone age comment. But I only work as an OR tech specializing in orthopedics at an Ontario hospital.


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## jeepsport (16 Jun 2010)

MCG said:
			
		

> The ombudsman is "inside the system" and there for you to use.  If everything else has failed, do not be affraid of this option.



It is your right to use the Ombudsman ... that being said, if you have not exercised all possible avenues i.e. proper chain of command to that point then they will not address your file. I've gone to the Ombudsman twice so far in 12 years and both times it has solved my issues, but that was not after I had the proper channels exercised.

Some people use the media because they are attention whores, but there have been cases that because someone went through the media it has benefited a lot of the soldiers. But don't be the person that someone makes an example over because you went off half cocked about your interpretation of a decision.


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## the 48th regulator (16 Jun 2010)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> Obviously I was mistaken when I thought that perhaps by posting here I could get some assistance from my fellow CF brethren,  instead I have people like you tess who think it's funny to taunt and ridicule me, simply because I want to get fixed and back to soldiering.



You want assistance in help you get funding for treatment not recognized by Health Canada, from a site dedicated to soldiers.  A great start, if you are looking for people to help you find the treatment, but not the place to help you condemn the wrong people.  The IPSC and Veteran affairs are not there to give every hair brained idea, a dollar amount.  



			
				Kokanee said:
			
		

> I'm so glad that you think this forum is a place to shit on people who only want to be done right by the CF, instead of a place to come together and help each other out. It's nice to know that the last year of abject suffering on my part, still soldiering on and working as much as I possibly can while putting up with nothing but flack from the medical system hasn't been wasted; that at the very least it could be something for you to rub my nose in. I hope you feel nice and satisfied with your snide remarks at a wounded member's expense.



I shit on those, which complain about the wrong resources, and help perpetuate myths.  This will hinder injured soldiers from seeking the approved, treatment.

I am not rubbing your nose in it, and Bruce is correct, you rubbed me the wrong way when you criticized the system.  Your attitude came out as you deserve what you want, not what is available.  If you did not like the way our service rifle worked for you, would you come on here and ask how you would be able to circumvent the system, get your own preferred rifle and insist the system pays for it?




			
				Kokanee said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone else who was constructive, but obviously I"m asking for assistance in the wrong place.



No you are asking in the right place, however you are not asking the right questions.  




			
				Occam said:
			
		

> There was a time when medical marijuana and laser eye surgery weren't approved by Health Canada.  Fortunately, through trials and testing, there was a proven health benefit and those treatments are now recognized.  Medical marijuana is even funded by the country....



Exactly, until those treatments were approved, you would have received the same answer that Kokaneee is getting now.





			
				Occam said:
			
		

> Sorry, I find this statement offensive.  The VAC pension is not meant to pay for medical treatment; according to the VAC site, the disability award is "meant to recognize and compensate for the non-economic impacts of a service-related disability".



And VAC is an administrator for insurance, Blue Cross, not Daddy Warbucks, that is there to pay for every treatment googled on the internet.




			
				Occam said:
			
		

> The financial responsibility for treating the busted-up member is VAC's.  If there is an alternative medical treatment which offers promise of relief for a given condition, but is not approved by Health Canada, then VAC should play a role in investigating/lobbying for the possibility of approval of the treatment by Health Canada.
> 
> VAC is supposed to be an advocate for the veteran.



No, VAC’s role is to administrate the funds to pay for treatment.  You want someone to advocate changing something that is Government legislated; your Member of Parliament is where you go.  If he wants to get treatment, which falls out of the lanes of Approved treatment, then he uses his own funds.  That includes the Pay out that VAC gives. 

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=forces/nvc/programs/da

 
When a CF Veteran has a disability, it can cause pain and suffering, change the way your body or mind functions, and make it hard for you to enjoy life. The disability award is meant to recognize and compensate for the non-economic impacts of a service-related disability.



Yes, it is compensation, however that also means investing in it to alleviate the pain, suffering and the way the body or mind functions.  As an individual, you have the choice to decide what will do this, a Big screen TV or Operation outside of the Country.  Your choice.

What grates under my skin is the attitude of entitlement.  Everyone that expects that because they serve, and get injured, that they are entitled to what ever they feel is owed to them.  They look at blaming everyone, and pouting, until they get what they want.  You are injured, then take the advice your Doctor, IPSC, and VAC have given to you, to alleviate the pain, Kokanee.  Have you been given alternatives?


dileas

tess


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## the 48th regulator (16 Jun 2010)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> This forum was not really helpful. All I ever got was, “I find way too many holes in your story.” Or “Get the sand out of your vag.” The system breaks down more often than people admit. If I couldn’t get help for years and my MOC was Medic I can imagine others are not doing too well. You get too much recruiting poster sunshine here.
> 
> PM me if you need any advice. I’m just coming out the other end of what you are going through and this forum only insulted me as well.




You do realize he can look at your posting history, and see why you got the answers that you did from the _forum_. 

Oh and by the way, some of us have been Wounded, and been a victim of a broken system, and have the privelage to be working in fixing the mistakes of the past....._And_ can pick through the Pepper, to find the fly shit of complaints.

dileas

tess


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## Kokanee (16 Jun 2010)

Thank You everyone for your helpful comments and advice, I have an appt w/ my MO tomorrow and it's time to put all the chips on the table and get this kicked up to the base chief surgeon.


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## 57Chevy (16 Jun 2010)

Did you see a specialist?      Orthopedist for one (seeing you did not mention which discs)
Start using your search engin concerning, Sciata, degenerative disc disease, spinal cord injuries

Avoid surgical intervention
My :2c:


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## Kokanee (16 Jun 2010)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Did you see a specialist?



The only specialists I've been allowed to see have been a Neurologist (sleep disorder specialist wtf?) who told me it was head. And an Orthopedic pain specialist who diagnosed it as cervical facet joint syndrome due to decreased disc height.


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## Kat Stevens (16 Jun 2010)

It took 2 1/2 years for me to get in to see an ortho surgeon.  I was in his office a shade under 3 minutes.  "Bend over and touch your toes."  "If I could touch my toes, I wouldn't be here in your office, doc."  "You have what we call an unspecified mechanical lower back injury, might as well learn to live with it."  That's doctorese for 'we don't have a fucking clue what's wrong with your back'.


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## Nemo888 (16 Jun 2010)

You really need an MRI. Without it you can't really tell what treatment is appropriate. I am always shocked at how hard it is to get imaging out of Army docs. Demand an MRI. Once I had my MRI if I had problems I would just email a few slices of the extensive damage. Made life much easier.(possibly why they are so reluctant to order them) Get your own copy before you leave the hospital. VAC didn't need much else. Plus a surgeon can't really do anything without good imaging. The lap surgeries are good if you can afford them and don't mind going to the States.  For implants they need good bone to anchor the metal to so the DDD should not be too advanced. It will not make you like you were before though. If you are highly functional now I wouldn't do it. I expect in about ten years we will start doing spinal lap surgeries here. Might be worth waiting as the golden period for surgery is already over anyway. 

Revisit light physio about every 6 months. It made it worse for the first few years. Now it actually seems to be helping this round. The deal when we joined was "the best care available". Don't settle for this half assed push you out the door BS.


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## 57Chevy (16 Jun 2010)

Lower back problems are much harder to diagnose than the neck area spinal injuries. 
 One symptom of neck injury could be bi-lateral tennis elbow. Depending on which particular disc is 
 damaged or otherwise herniated. The orthopedist knows what symptoms to look for.
 More information can be found at:
 http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/tc/herniated-disc-symptoms


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## Kokanee (17 Jun 2010)

@Nemo888: I've had three MRI's total, so I'm good to go in that regard. I'm attaching a few choice cuts of the imaging to my VAC application for sure.

@57chevy: I'm having problems with my cervical discs, not my lumbar.


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## ModlrMike (17 Jun 2010)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> The deal when we joined was "the best care available".



No, the deal was, and still is: the same care as every other Canadian. Ergo, if it's not accessible to every other Canadian, it's not accessible to us. To think otherwise perpetuates the misconception that we have access to every whizbang, gold plated, one successful outcome treatment there is. We don't, just like every other Canadian doesn't.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2010)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> @Nemo888: I've had three MRI's total, so I'm good to go in that regard. I'm attaching a few choice cuts of the imaging to my VAC application for sure.



2 things.

Those MRI's, should be in your medical documentation, especially if you are Reg force, or a Reserve on Class C attached to the JPSU/IPSC.  If not, you may have to sign a consent form, for VAC to obtain those MRI results directly from the clinic you had them done.

Attaching them, on your own, may result in VAC not accepting them as legitimate results.

dileas

tess


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## Kokanee (17 Jun 2010)

Ah and there lies the rub, I agree with you completely that they should be on my med docs 100%. However they were "lost" and the imaging tech has been unable to order a new dvd from Ottawa as apparently they are in the process of changing how these sorts of imaging files are managed. Tired of no results, so I went to the MRI clinic, paid $10 and got my own copy of the disc.

I signed the consent form so I'm not anticipating any problems with VA; this is actually my second time down the road with them so I'm actually quite confident in a good res olution as far as they are concerned. Definitely a good point though, sometimes things slide under the radar.

Unfortunately, it looks like I'm going to have to have my nerves in the affected area ablated, a procedure which I'll have to have done most likely every 6-8 months for the rest of my life; instead of just fixing the damned discs in one shot. My GP tells me that I can still be retained like this, but I highly doubt it as there is no way I'm deployable with that condition.

Heading to NY state next month to pay out of pocket for a neurosurgeon's consult; After 14 months I have yet to see an specialist in the required field....

Thanks everyone for the pointers.


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## Kokanee (7 Jul 2010)

Was finally able to meet w/ a case worker whom IPSC referred me to; she towed the line that some here have espoused; I have to make do w/ Ontario Health and wait my turn, even if it means I run out of TCATS before I see a competent professional.

As well, when I made it known that the length of time this has dragged on has been a source of stress on my relationship w/ my Fiance, she suggested I leave her and find someone else who can deal w/ it....

Needless to say, I'm not giving her the time of day again, next stop Base Chief Surgeon.


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