# Can 4th year university student enrol as an officer?



## jmmcintyre (31 May 2012)

I am the recruiter at a reserve unit.  I have an applicant who is going into his 4th year of university in September.  After I got his application for RESO into the local recruiting centre, I was told that because he has less than two years left of university, he cannot apply for RESO.  Also, since he has not yet graduated, he is not eligible for DEO.  So the question is, can he enrol as an officer at all?  It doesn't make sense to me that there is this grey area where last year he could apply as an officer, this year he can't, and next year he can again.  I know he can go the NCM route and commission after getting his degree, but it seems unnecessary to me when someone with one year less education than him can be enrolled as an Ocdt and he can't.  Can anyone shed any light no this?


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## brihard (1 Jun 2012)

Hm, that is a pickle. I worked as a recruiter at my unit and never had to deal with this- I have no idea. I'll be curious about the answer to this one too.


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## The_Falcon (2 Jun 2012)

jmmcintyre said:
			
		

> I am the recruiter at a reserve unit.  I have an applicant who is going into his 4th year of university in September.  After I got his application for RESO into the local recruiting centre, I was told that because he has less than two years left of university, he cannot apply for RESO.  Also, since he has not yet graduated, he is not eligible for DEO.  So the question is, can he enrol as an officer at all?  It doesn't make sense to me that there is this grey area where last year he could apply as an officer, this year he can't, and next year he can again.  I know he can go the NCM route and commission after getting his degree, but it seems unnecessary to me when someone with one year less education than him can be enrolled as an Ocdt and he can't.  Can anyone shed any light no this?



Someone at the CFRC may have confused ROTP/RETP with RESO.  I am not at work at the moment to provide the exact link, but if you go to the CFRG site on the DWAN (borden.mil.ca)  you can download the recruiters handbook.  and it will give you the most up to date information.  It's probably a good idea to look it up anyways, if you deal with recruiting for your home unit.


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## The_Falcon (4 Jun 2012)

So yeah they were right need two years left minimum for RESO, however they can still apply/be processed for Officer Candidate Training Plan (OCTP).  If you are on DWAN this is your source.  ftp://borden.mil.ca/33/eng/8/33-8-1-eng.doc#_Toc321380790


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## therickiness (4 Jun 2012)

I had the same issue. I was denied application in Oct of my last year but i got a conditional graduation letter from U of Calgary admissions and they processed me in Feb of my last year after the CFRC initially denied me application as well.


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## The_Falcon (4 Jun 2012)

therickiness said:
			
		

> I had the same issue. I was denied application in Oct of my last year but i got a conditional graduation letter from U of Calgary admissions and they processed me in Feb of my last year after the CFRC initially denied me application as well.



Thanks for the personal story, but the OP was asking about what the appropriate policy/program would be for his candidate.


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## jmmcintyre (4 Jun 2012)

Thank you very much for the information.  I've been in my position for almost nine months now and this is the first time I've even heard of a recruiter's handbook.  Your information is very much appreciated.


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## bridges (4 Jun 2012)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Thanks for the personal story, but the OP was asking about what the appropriate policy/program would be for his candidate.



By my reading, the personal story, while short on details, may serve to corroborate the OP's observations - and it's in line with the subject of the thread, and provides a possible fix.  

Not sure we want to be discouraging that kind of thing-?   :2c:


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## The_Falcon (4 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> By my reading, the personal story, while short on details, may serve to corroborate the OP's observations - and it's in line with the subject of the thread, and provides a possible fix.
> 
> Not sure we want to be discouraging that kind of thing-?   :2c:



It doesn't really provide a fix, since it was exactly that "short on details".  Depending on what CFRC the OP has to deal with, they possibly don't have the time to look up the information for him.  Telling us well I heard/read on a internet forum someone got in this way, isn't going to win him/her much support, on our end.


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## bridges (4 Jun 2012)

Ack.  It's a fine line, sometimes, between sharing ideas/experiences and sharing useless info.


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## jmmcintyre (6 Jun 2012)

I brought up OCTP to the recruiter and was told that he doesn't qualify for that either because you need to have four years left of university.  I read the regs, that does seem to be what it says.  Anyway, I just told him to enrol as an NCM and hopefully we can get him changed over in time for BMOQ in May.  He'll be graduated by then anyway.


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## aesop081 (6 Jun 2012)

jmmcintyre said:
			
		

> I brought up OCTP to the recruiter



The Officer Candidate Training Program(OCTP) ceased to be used many years ago. It was a program limited to a small number of specific trades (Pilot, Air nav, Inf, Armd, Arty, MARS as i recall). You did not need 4 years of univeristy left back then, in fact, no university was required to become an officer under this program.


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## akamran10@ubishops.ca (19 Aug 2012)

Hello all,

This is my first post on the forum so please excuse any rookie mistakes!
I have gone through a lot of the posts and read a lot about my issue, but have yet to find my specific answer.

I am starting my third year of University and applied for ROTP, but unfortunately did not do so well on the problem solving part of the CFAT (I know... I messed up BIG TIME). I was told that I cannot join the ROTP, but can apply for NCM, and after getting my degree, switch to officer. I am currently in the honours program, which is a 4 years program, but am thinking of graduating at 3 years without honours (not because I don't want to do honours, but because I probably will not meet the requirements for honours). This would mean that I would graduate in April/May 2013.

From what I understand the OP wants their recruit to follow a similar path. I just want to know exactly what/how the process will be. The recruiter also told me that I also have the choice of closing my file now and just applying as DEO once I have completed my program. Will I be applying in the reg., or the reserves? Will I stay as a NCM for the 3 year contract term and then be allowed to swtich to officer, or will I just be moved to officer after April (because that is when I might graduate).

Also, my University is in Sherbrooke, Quebec - which is a francophone area; however, I understand very little French (I know... I am trying to learn as fast as possible), and my original recruiting office is in Yellowknife, NT. The Yellowknife office is being closed down soon, so the recruiter advised me to get my file moved to the office close to me. If I get my file moved here would there not be an issue of not being able to speak French?

Even though I have gone through the forums, if these questions are answered elsewhere please post the link and I would be happy to read on about it.
Thank you all in advance for your help!


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Aug 2012)

There are a number of issues you raise about your potential enrolment and (in my opinion) none of them are similar to the situation raised by the OP.



> . . . . . applied for ROTP, but unfortunately did not do so well on the problem solving part of the CFAT (I know... I messed up BIG TIME). I was told that I cannot join the ROTP . . . . .



My understanding (correct me if wrong) is that you did not score high enough on the CFAT for officer, in other words, you do not have tha aptitude (i.e. not smart enough according to the test) to be an officer.  Even if you enrol as an NCM with the intent to switch to officer after completing a degree, you would still have to meet the CFAT requirement.  If my recollection is correct, there is only one commissioning program (SRCP) that does not require individuals to meet those CFAT scores, but this program does not apply to your case.  You may be allowed to re-write the CFAT.



> . . . apply for NCM, and after getting my degree, switch to officer . . .



If you apply as an NCM (I assume in the Reg Force since your original intent was ROTP), you would not be attending university on the government's dime, but you could complete your degree on your own time.  The major focus of your service in the first couple of years is training to be a useful soldier.  Serving NCMs are not automatically offered commissions because they have degrees.  Most in-service commissioning programs are by application and are limited in the number of positions offered.  They are also very competitive, probably more competitive than similar commissioning programs for civilian applicants, since recommendations from the individual's commanding officer are also required which would also include an appraisal of one's observed military service/performance.



> . . . Will I be applying in the reg., or the reserves? . . .



That's up to you.  Regular Force means full-time.  Reserves means part-time local service.



> . . . Will I stay as a NCM for the 3 year contract term and then be allowed to swtich to officer, or will I just be moved to officer after April (because that is when I might graduate) . . .



Do some research.  As I stated above, commissioning is not automatic nor guaranteed simply because one has a degree.


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## akamran10@ubishops.ca (19 Aug 2012)

Thank you for your fast reply!

I honestly just messed up the CFAT because I was so nervous. I am normally very confident and able in tough situations and have full control over my stress, but this was one of those 'it's my whole future and whole career in front of me' kind of thing, and thats exactly why I am so angry at myself.
I have taken a lot of time to assess myself in whether I would be capable of being an officer, if I am smart enough, have enough leadership skills, am determined enough etc., and every time I think of it the answer comes out as yes - I AM smart enough for officer, and I am determined enough to get there.

I understand that getting commission is not something that gets handed to you, and you have to earn it, and I always think of it as a no pain no gain kind of thing.

What I am really looking for advice in is: should I go NCM for now, get some experience under me and get in the system, and then APPLY for officer and rewrite the CFAT for officer, or should I wait till I graduate (or a few months before I do as the recruiting officer told me) and apply as a DEO and rewrite the CFAT?

From what I understand is that you can write the CFAT only once again if you have upgraded/graduated/taken new courses.


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## The_Falcon (25 Aug 2012)

akamran10 said:
			
		

> Thank you for your fast reply!
> 
> I honestly just messed up the CFAT because I was so nervous. I am normally very confident and able in tough situations and have full control over my stress, but this was one of those 'it's my whole future and whole career in front of me' kind of thing, and thats exactly why I am so angry at myself.
> I have taken a lot of time to assess myself in whether I would be capable of being an officer, if I am smart enough, have enough leadership skills, am determined enough etc., and every time I think of it the answer comes out as yes - I AM smart enough for officer, and I am determined enough to get there.
> ...



You can only rewrite the CFAT only IF a WAIVER to rewrite is approved.  Rewrites are not automatic or guaranteed.


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