# Filming/sharing videos of PW war crime? (split from Ukraine - Superthread)



## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

So open question. 

Seeing a lot of videos of Russian POWs. I posted one, which I think was more "okay" since it was civilians and it was just the soldier speaking to his mother, but you can easily find others with Ukrainian military being more aggressive with their questioning. 

War crime or no?


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## Czech_pivo (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> So open question.
> 
> Seeing a lot of videos of Russian POWs. I posted one, which I think was more "okay" since it was civilians and it was just the soldier speaking to his mother, but you can easily find others with Ukrainian military being more aggressive with their questioning.
> 
> War crime or no?


The videoing of them is considered a 'war crime' under the GC.  Questioning, nope no issue with that, 'aggressive' could be an issue if violence or threats of violence are directed at them but not tone of voice.

An argument possibly could be made that the videoing of them is a manner in which to let their countrymen/family know that they are alive and at that point in time, ok.  The RC would have the responsibility to talk with each and every one of them to gather their personal information to pass along to the Russians and allow them to write/convey some personal message back to family back home.  But this would be the norms when a declaration of war has been declared.  I don't know (and I'm sure that others on here have vasy more knowledge) if the RC will actually get involvement in any manner at all in terms of prisoners captured by either side.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> The videoing of them is considered a 'war crime' under the GC.  Questioning, nope no issue with that, 'aggressive' could be an issue if violence or threats of violence are directed at them but not tone of voice.
> 
> An argument possibly could be made that the videoing of them is a manner in which to let their countrymen/family know that they are alive and at that point in time, ok.  The RC would have the responsibility to talk with each and every one of them to gather their personal information to pass along to the Russians and allow them to write/convey some personal message back to family back home.  But this would be the norms when a declaration of war has been declared.  I don't know (and I'm sure that others on here have vasy more knowledge) if the RC will actually get involvement in any manner at all in terms of prisoners captured by either side.


Are civilians subject to the GC in the same way soldiers/nations are?


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## WLSC (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Are civilians subject to the GC in the same way soldiers/nations are?


If I remember well, yes if they are recognize as a legitimate organisation i.e.: FFI in France in WW2.


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## KevinB (3 Mar 2022)

Arguments have been presented that since Russia didn't declare War on the Ukraine - that Russian forces could be seen as illegal combatants.
   I tend to think that is pushing it, but their SOF etc who have been caught operating in UKR clothing could very easily be shot, as they don't get the same protections under the LOAC.

 All in all, the UKR at least publicly have been treating the RU Forces quite well considering...


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

FusMR said:


> If I remember well, yes if they are recognize as a legitimate organisation i.e.: FFI in France in WW2.


So the Ukrainian territorial defense force cannot be doing this, or else its a war crime. Seen.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> Arguments have been presented that since Russia didn't declare War on the Ukraine - that Russian forces could be seen as illegal combatants.
> I tend to think that is pushing it, but their SOF etc who have been caught operating in UKR clothing could very easily be shot, as they don't get the same protections under the LOAC.


That's pretty shady logic. The USA didn't exactly declare war on Afghanistan or Iraq.


KevinB said:


> All in all, the UKR at least publicly have been treating the RU Forces quite well considering...


True, but I'm trying to figure out if Russian POWs on tiktok is a war crime or not.

What a weird sentence.


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## WLSC (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> So the Ukrainian territorial defense force cannot be doing this, or else its a war crime. Seen.


After that, it's to a tribunal to determine if they should have known etc, etc, etc...


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

FusMR said:


> After that, it's to a tribunal to determine if they should have known etc, etc, etc...


But on the face of it, not on.


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## rmc_wannabe (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> But on the face of it, not on.


Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.

Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been released. If this is the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.

Russia has a list of documented war crimes ranging in severity that should see most of their commanders and leaders on the end of a rope by the end of this.

In the end, video taped conscripts spilling their life story on video is a scratch on the paint job, as opposed to thermobaric bombing civilians, looting, and murdering the wounded.


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## WLSC (3 Mar 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.
> 
> Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been released. If this is the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.
> 
> ...


Absolutely.  Light slap on the fingers IMO


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.
> 
> Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been release. If thisbis the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.
> 
> ...



Listen, I have not once, not once, said what Russia is doing is acceptable. I limited my arcs here as to whether what I'm seeing on Tictok, telegram, twitter, is a war crime or not.

Purely objective, fact based. As soldiers, we need to respect the LOAC, the GC, regardless of what the enemy does. If the soldier you have just been fighting was using human shields, raping and murdering civilians, shooting at medics, do we get to turn a blind eye to the GC and LOAC and do what we please, simply justifying it by saying we are still better than they? Do we deny them first aid? Do we film them and post their images online?

No.

So while I'm a firm Ukraine supporter here, if this is a WC, I will call it out as such.


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## KevinB (3 Mar 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Cool. This logic is the same as the bully and the victim both getting detention when the victim fights back.
> 
> Ukraine has been an honorable foe from what has been released. If this is the worst thing they have done, I would sanction them for 24 hrs.
> 
> ...


Proportionality...

@FJAG can give an actually informed opinion, but my thoughts would be that UKR would argue that their 'crime' is one of necessity to spare further lives.   



Altair said:


> That's pretty shady logic. The USA didn't exactly declare war on Afghanistan or Iraq.


Agreed - Korean War was a "Police Action" etc - which is why I said shaky arguments.  



Altair said:


> True, but I'm trying to figure out if Russian POWs on tiktok is a war crime or not.


Guilty Act and Guilty Mind?   Plus I suspect the ICC is busy with Russian violations that actually are utterly repugnant.


Altair said:


> What a weird sentence.


You knew in Afghanistan or Iraq that running around in 'civilian clothes' (a la Man dress or similar) that you where not exactly going to get LOAC coverage (caveat you where not going to get LOAC treatment either in uniform...)


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## KevinB (3 Mar 2022)

@Altair the digital age has changed warfare (at least from the public perception) significantly.
  There haven't been any recent changes to the various Conventions - I suspect that after this is said and done - that we will indeed see some changes done.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> @Altair the digital age has changed warfare (at least from the public perception) significantly.
> There haven't been any recent changes to the various Conventions - I suspect that after this is said and done - that we will indeed see some changes done.


You're not wrong, but the rules as written are still there and one cannot argue that they are outdated, one has to follow them.


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## Mills Bomb (3 Mar 2022)

Given the fact Ukraine is being invaded in a unjust war, I find it highly unlikely they will stop filming Russian POW's. 

Their women and children are being shelled in these cities by the second largest military in the world, Putin is conquering their nation, they have only received limited assistance from NATO and will probably eventually lose the conflict after a lot of death and destruction unless a miraculous David and Goliath moment happens, are we really about to tell them "Hey Ukraine, I know you're on the brink of existing as a nation against a superpower, but you gotta play by the rules, no filming POW's in hopes of a Russian revolution that could end that war, that may be against the Geneva convention". 

If it was the CAF different story, we would shut it down right away, but these are completely foreign states at war with each other and we're sitting it out and I'm just personally having trouble trying to apply our morals / Geneva convention to this given how absurd the entire thing is. The Ukrainians are just doing whatever it is they think will help them survive at this point.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Given the fact Ukraine is being invaded in a unjust war, I find it highly unlikely they will stop filming Russian POW's.
> 
> Their women and children are being shelled in these cities by the second largest military in the world, Putin is conquering their nation, they have only received limited assistance from NATO and will probably eventually lose the conflict after a lot of death and destruction unless a miraculous David and Goliath moment happens, are we really about to tell them "Hey Ukraine, I know you're on the brink of existing as a nation against a superpower, but you gotta play by the rules, no filming POW's in hopes of a Russian revolution that could end that war, that may be against the Geneva convention".
> 
> If it was the CAF different story, we would shut it down right away, but these are completely foreign states at war with each other and we're sitting it out and I'm just personally having trouble trying to apply our morals / Geneva convention to this given how absurd the entire thing is. The Ukrainians are just doing whatever it is they think will help them survive at this point.


2 things. 

1. The revolution looked like is was going to happen regardless.

2. It never hurts to call out people, friends or foe, to follow the rules.

And its a relatively small thing they can do.


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## Kirkhill (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Still doesn't make it right.
> 
> Calculated maybe, but not right.



Laws reflect and codify ethics and morality.

Ethics and morality are more important than adherence to the law.

Laws are changed.  That is why we have Parliament.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Laws reflect and codify ethics and morality.
> 
> Ethics and morality are more important than adherence to the law.
> 
> Laws are changed.  That is why we have Parliament.


Ill be sure to try this with the police should i ever have a run in with them


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## HiTechComms (3 Mar 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Laws reflect and codify ethics and morality.
> 
> Ethics and morality are more important than adherence to the law.
> 
> Laws are changed.  That is why we have Parliament.


Until a unilateral decision is made through OIC or under pretext of an Emergency.

Then again its fine in some nations according to Ethics, morals to throw gay people to be thrown off building or adulatory to be punished by stoning. 

Both have a huge problematic scope. Culture, History and social norms seem to dictate everything.


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## Mills Bomb (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> 2 things.
> 
> 1. The revolution looked like is was going to happen regardless.
> 
> ...



I suspect we may need to manage our expectations. I hope you're right, but we'll see what happens. There is still a very real chance this war doesn't end how we hope it does, but we also aren't fighting in it so we've really left it up to them. I will just have to disagree on this issue, I'm not going to cheer for Ukraine on the sidelines and then tell them how to fight in what is clearly an awful unjust one sided war. They need a miracle to fend off the Russians. Fingers crossed but I think it's hard to say how it ends.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> I suspect we may need to manage our expectations. I hope you're right, but we'll see what happens. There is still a very real chance this war doesn't end how we hope it does, but we also aren't fighting in it so we've really left it up to them. I will just have to disagree on this issue, I'm not going to cheer for Ukraine on the sidelines and then tell them how to fight in what is clearly an awful unjust one sided war. They need a miracle to fend off the Russians. Fingers crossed but I think it's hard to say how it ends.


Listen, I am a full supporter of Ukraine, even got one of my pro Ukraine posts deleted.

But I was taught, by the CAF, that if I see something, say something. Not to allow little transgressions just slide by because someone is my friend, my buddy, my coworker, my boss.

Its a good life lesson. Nowhere did it say dont apply this to allies or Ukrainians.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Listen, I am a full supporter of Ukraine, even got one of my pro Ukraine posts deleted.
> 
> But I was taught, by the CAF, that if I see something, say something. Not to allow little transgressions just slide by because someone is my friend, my buddy, my coworker, my boss.
> 
> Its a good life lesson. Nowhere did it say dont apply this to allies or Ukrainians.


Oh please.......now it sounds like you're begging to be taken seriously. 

Several folks well versed in these laws have called what you have claimed to be "iffy" at best.
Know what?   When the various trials come up afterwards let's wait and see if this one makes the docket.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Oh please.......now it sounds like you're begging to be taken seriously.
> 
> Several folks well versed in these laws have called what you have claimed to be "iffy" at best.
> Know what?   When the various trials come up afterwards let's wait and see if this one makes the docket.


Okay, ill put it this way.

Would CAF members allow POWs to be filmed like what was shown? No?

Case closed.


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## Kirkhill (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Ill be sure to try this with the police should i ever have a run in with them



We obey the police because we choose.  We choose to because we like order.  If we don't like the law, we have courts to ensure that we are not mistreated even in detention.  

Meanwhile, if we don't like the law, on moral or ethical grounds, we take it to parliament and challenge it and argue for it to be changed.

If they agree, then throw a parade.

If they disagree, then you are comfortably detained for the duration.  Take the opportunity to work on that free MBA.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Okay, ill put it this way.
> 
> Would CAF members allow POWs to be filmed like what was shown? No?
> 
> Case closed.


You know this how??


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## KevinB (3 Mar 2022)

Can we thread split the Discussion on filming PUC's please


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> We obey the police because we choose.  We choose to because we like order.  If we don't like the law, we have courts to ensure that we are not mistreated even in detention.
> 
> Meanwhile, if we don't like the law, on moral or ethical grounds, we take it to parliament and challenge it and argue for it to be changed.
> 
> ...


So...laws are to be followed then?

That's entirely fair.

To Russia.

Stop indescriminately bombing civilian districts, stop bombing civilian buildings, stop using cluster bombs, stop deploying thermobaric weapons, stop using ambulances to transport ammunition, stop firing at civilians.

And stop this illegal war.

To Ukraine. 

Stop putting POWs on social media.


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## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Okay, ill put it this way.
> 
> Would CAF members allow POWs to be filmed like what was shown? No?
> 
> Case closed.


Okay then Matlock. 






						How to file a communication to the ICC Prosecutor | Coalition for the International Criminal Court
					






					coalitionfortheicc.org
				




Here is the link.  File a case.  You said you were taught to say something when you see something?  Pony up. 

Send them the video with your concerns and see what they respond.  It will be a very good lesson for all of us here. 

Let us know how it goes.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Okay then Matlock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll do that right after you file a complaint about all Russian violations.

Let me know when you're done.


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## Kirkhill (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> So...laws are to be followed then?
> 
> Stop putting POWs on social media.



This falls into the "better be judged by 12 than buried by 6" territory.  Or, if you prefer, "better to beg forgiveness, than ask permission".


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> This falls into the "better be judged by 12 than buried by 6" territory.  Or, if you prefer, "better to beg forgiveness, than ask permission".


Does the same apply to Russia?


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## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I'll do that right after you file a complaint about all Russian violations.
> 
> Let me know when you're done.


I haven’t really been talking about Russian violations.  You can correct me if I’m wrong.  I also haven’t been lecturing everyone about it either. 

If you are that serious about it file it.  You seem pretty passionate about it.  I mean if it really is a war crime in your opinion are you actually ignoring that?  Otherwise you are just  all talk about your adherence to those rules and it really must not be as important as you claim it is.

Case closed.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I haven’t really been talking about Russian violations.  You can correct me if I’m wrong.  I also haven’t been lecturing everyone about it either.
> 
> If you are that serious about it file it.  You seem pretty passionate about it.  I mean if it really is a war crime in your opinion are you actually ignoring that?  Otherwise you are just  all talk about your adherence to those rules and it really must not be as important as you claim it is.
> 
> Case closed.


What, you didnt post about Russians using therobaric weapons or running over civilians in armored vehicles?


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## The Bread Guy (3 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> Can we thread split the Discussion on filming PUC's please


Done - enjoy!

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> What, you didnt post about Russians using therobaric weapons or running over civilians in armored vehicles?



 So you won’t be filing a case?


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> So you won’t be filing a case?


Like I said, after you.


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## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Like I said, after you.


Not how it works.  I wasn’t calling for war crimes like you were.

So you aren’t.  Guess it isn’t the hill you keep seeming to die on.  I’ll chalk it up to not being as serious as you claim it is and you just trying to squirm your way out of the argument.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Not how it works.  I wasn’t calling for war crimes like you were.
> 
> So you aren’t.  Guess it isn’t the hill you keep seeming to die on.  I’ll chalk it up to not being as serious as you claim it is and you just trying to squirm your way out of the argument.


Or you can read where i said repeated that I dont expect or want Ukrainians to facing war crimes charges and would much rather they just cut it out.


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## Remius (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Or you can read where i said repeated that I dont expect or want Ukrainians to facing war crimes charges and would much rather they just cut it out.


You said case closed.  And bunch of other stuff about see something say something. 

And you said someone should tell Zelenski, and the authorities to cut that stuff out.  Yeah, they are busy right now trying not to die.  

We are not going to agree on you thinking that that video is a war crime. I don’t think it is.  I don’t think anyone will be prosecuted for it,  I doubt that Russian soldier is going to file a complaint after the way he was treated.  And anyone pursuing this case is wasting time and energy that could be put to good use elsewhere.  Yes, Like tank running over Civies..  Is there a risk with all of this social media and instant imagery.  Yes.  That does not mean that the law should be interpreted dogmatically in all circumstances.   Plain and simple.  Context and if pursuing the incident is in the best interest of the laws in question.   Justice may be blind but it does not have to be heartless. 

I’m leaving it at that.  Feel free to have the last word.


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## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> You said case closed.  And bunch of other stuff about see something say something.
> 
> And you said someone should tell Zelenski, and the authorities to cut that stuff out.  Yeah, they are busy right now trying not to die.
> 
> ...


Meh.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> 2. It never hurts to call out people, friends or foe, to follow the rules.
> 
> And its a relatively small thing they can do.


Jump on twitter and start telling the president in Ukraine to do it.

Please post results.


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## Kirkhill (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Does the same apply to Russia?



Vlad seems to think so.

Which is why we retain armies.


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## lenaitch (3 Mar 2022)

> I circle back to the red cross here because they do deal with POWs quite a bit.
> 
> Treaties, States parties, and Commentaries - Geneva Convention (III) on Prisoners of War, 1949 - 13 - Article 13 : Humane treatment of prisoners - Commentary of 2020
> Being exposed to ‘public curiosity’ as a prisoner of war, even when such exposure is not accompanied by insulting remarks or actions, is humiliating in itself and therefore specifically prohibited. For the purposes of the present article, ‘public’ should be interpreted as referring to anyone who is not directly involved in handling the prisoners of war, including other members of the Detaining Power. Exposure to public curiosity can take many forms. The prohibition undoubtedly covers parading prisoners in public.[112] Moreover, prisoners must not be exposed to humiliation when they leave their camp for work, are transferred to another facility or are being repatriated.[113] In modern conflicts, the prohibition also covers, subject to the considerations discussed below, the disclosure of photographic and video images, recordings of interrogations or private conversations or personal correspondence or any other private data, irrespective of which public communication channel is used, including the internet. Although this is seemingly different from being marched through a hostile crowd, such disclosure could still be humiliating and jeopardize the safety of the prisoners’ families and of the prisoners themselves once they are released.
> ...



(It seems not all related posts were cut over)

At the risk of getting too close to a dog on a bone, I'll stick my hand up and offer the position that I disagree with the application of the ICRC analysis in this instance, if for no other reason that it lacks context.  I fully realize that my opinion and $1.50 buys you a Tim's.

Their commentary is an opinion; a no doubt scholarly and learned opinion, but an opinion none the less.  It is a very lengthy analysis of an Article that is three paragraphs long, and opens with the statement that _"Prisoners of war must at all times be humanly treated"_.  If someone can point out the lack of humanity in the subject video, I'll be glad to hear it.  The ICRC claims the high ground in these matters - I get that but, as far as I understand, they don't arbitrate or adjudicate on any of these matters.

The way I read the Convention, it is initially up to the signatories to adhere to a treaty they signed on to.  I suppose the government, in the middle of a war, could maybe ask its citizenry to not photograph prisoners, and maybe direct its soldiers - who might not have been soldiers the day before, to perhaps not participate in something that, to the casual observer, might appear rather humane and caring, but I'll give them a pass if they don't.


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## Altair (10 Mar 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-pow-videos-ukraine-international-law-1.6377305
		




> Videos circulating on social media of captured Russian soldiers calling their families and denouncing the invasion of Ukraine may be contributing to the violation of international law about how prisoners of war should be treated.
> 
> "You may not publish pictures of prisoners of war where they can be recognized," said Marco Sassoli, a professor of international law at the University of Geneva and a special adviser on international humanitarian law to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. "And obviously [in these cases], they can be recognized."
> 
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499765232704663552
Go figure.


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