# Professional Envy/Jealousy in the CF...Does it Exist?



## Kiwi99 (11 Mar 2007)

Does it?  I have heard the term at work, and on the TV once.  I have not witnessed it in fact, but it may be out there.  If so, how do we prevent it?  And what are the causes of it?  Does it even exist at all?

What do people think?  Lets hear some opinions, but try to keep them focused and intelligent.  I am suspecting that the nature of the replies will answer the question over time.


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## Yrys (11 Mar 2007)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Does it?



I'll answer with my civy common sense : is there human beeing in the CF ?


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## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2007)

I believe that what some perceive as "professional envy" is simply based on a failure to understand that we are all given the positions we have at the service's requirement.  Differences in individual employment are most often based on factors of coincidence with postings to specific units/bases at particular times rather than anything to do with the individual being specially selected for that time, place and appointment.  That coincidence of time and place of service combined with a schedule of operational and training events that no participant influenced in the first place may lead some to believe they are subject to such "envy".


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## orange.paint (11 Mar 2007)

Have you ever been placed on a career course ahead of someone who "deserves it more"  :-X?

If you have you would have heard all about professional envy.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

There's no professional jealousy when _all_ trades and their work, _all_ enviornments, and _all_ vlountary CF service is recognized for the fact that it is all essential, worthy and required.

Misconceptions are caused by those who don't seem to want to admit that little tidbit.


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2007)

Librarian I disagree, Though everything and everyone has it's use, I think in an institutional sense (IE: Bn life) jealousy occurs sometimes more often then not. Take for instance the case where some young Pte gets a Recce course because he just happens to run into the WO in the hallway and the WO thinks he is a pretty good troop, But in the Pl room the Cpl who has been fighting for that Recce course for 4 yrs now didn't get it because at the time the Coy didn't initially have any slots remaining during course loading. That's just an example and it's happened before of course but that one I just used should not be taken as fact.  Obviously that Cpl is going to be both pissed off and jealous and both for good reason.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

HorM,

I'm talking about jealousy between the trades and enviornments that other trades/enviornments display. I could link to some examples if you wish...from posters right in this very thread.

If someone within your trade is getting a course out of turn before you are...that's a trade or Unit problem; not a CF wide professional jealousy one.


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2007)

Right but the simple point is that proffessional jealousy exist no matter what between personel in Bn and even between trades it's a matr of human nature.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Right but the simple point is that proffessional exist no matter what between personel in Bn and even between trades it's a matr of human nature.



And it's not very _professional_ is it?


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## aesop081 (11 Mar 2007)

I see it everyday.....

People who complain about my trade getting "spec pay" or whine about my aircrew allowance or all of the TD trips

Their verbal jealousy usualy stops when i tell them that they too can remuster to my MOC


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> And it's not very _professional_ is it?



Human natrure trumps any concept of Proffessionality no matter what.


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## orange.paint (11 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> HorM,
> 
> I'm talking about jealousy between the trades and enviornments that other trades/enviornments display. I could link to some examples if you wish...from posters right in this very thread.



I think jealousy between trades exist.But most of it is due to people not happy in their own trade.For example sitting in a trench up to your armpits in water and seeing a Griffin fly over.How many times do you hear things like "betcha he's going to Timmy's for lunch" of "man I gotta change trades."

Yes everyone has an important job etc.However when your job is sucking,looking at someone Else's PRECIEVED cozy job can definitely cause envy.

Another example as HOM said,sitting in a OP and all of a sudden you have to go meet the rover.When you get down there to meet him you find some snively snot nosed trooper drinking Timmy's.Some people who have been doing the combat role get angry at the fact a young guy,who has no experience is getting "the good go".Or the SQ shop for that matter.

Jealously all stems from:
*how happy you are in your situation
*Your preception of the other guys job (remember your not seeing the crappy side of his job)

As for what HOM said.Maybe the WO didn't just pick the young guy in the hallway.Maybe he was sick of listening to certain CPL's *****.Not saying that for gospel however we see it in our trade all the time.

Many jealous people are the same people that will not help themselves change their current position.

I've been jealous.I'll admit that.I was also bitter and totally unhappy with my situation.So I decided to do everything in my power to change my situation,and currently am happy as I know things are looking good on the horizon.

How about postings?Same deal.You have been begging for a certain posting then you find out someone who don't WANT it is being sent.People then precieve that this person is TAKING their posting.
Its all preception.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Human natrure trumps any concept of Proffessionality no matter what.



No. Unit rivalry is part of maintaining morale and that is NOT a bad thing. Unit rivalry is recognized and respected as just that.

But posts that just slam another trade/enviornment as unworthy, useless etc ad naseum are just unprofessional. That's not jealousy, that's not rivalry, it just plain old wrong and stupid.

Someone actually believing that by the grace of his name being placed into a CPTPO posn outside the wire for example, and his fellow infanteer being placed into a posn on the same CFTPO inside the wire, by persons well above them in the food chain, meaning he could do the job and the other soldier couldn't is just plain wrong. People who tend to think like that, also tend to be the ones who denigrate the voluntary service of other trades and enviornments too. Like me...I got my tours because I was in the right posting at the right time. It certainly wasn't because I was better than anyone else (Sup tech wise) so it sure as heck doesn't mean I'm more worthy either. That's exactly what Mike O'L was talking about here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58567/post-540509.html#msg540509

You are talking about getting pissed off and jealous in specific situations...with specific triggering factors.

I'm talking overall attitudes, carried daily regarding other trades and service. Two totally different beasts.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Mar 2007)

I think the reason interservice rivalry is so prevalent is because one service has no understanding or refuses to understand what another service contributes to the defence of Canada.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I think the reason interservice rivalry is so prevalent is because one service has no understanding or refuses to understand what another service contributes to the defence of Canada.



Exactly the cause of the problem. But the professional thing to do would be to respect the fact that all services/trades are essential, and have a contribution to make and their job to do.

It's when people can't respect that fact that problems and slamming, uniformed posts occur which do nothing but serve cause to ruffle feathers; often intentionally. That is unprofessional.


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## Sig_Des (11 Mar 2007)

I was talking about this with someone a couple days ago.

You have to identify the 2 different issues here:

1. Jealousy/ Envy/ Rivalry between trades/units/ elements

2. Envy of Professional Development/positions/ promotions between members

Ref the first, there's always rivalry between unitc/elements/trades. Look at HoM and I...we're constantly making fun of each other for our respective jobs. I respect that he has his job, and I like to think vice versa. We kid with each other, same as army/navy/af pers will make fun of each others elements. Now, the problem is when people do it maliciously. There's no reason for that. We all have a different job to do, with different short-term goals, but in the end, it's a team effort.

Kind of like how on a hockey team the forwards and defense will always have rivalries, but in the end, it's all teamwork.

I think the first one is more of a pride issue.

The second one is I think what HoM is more referring to.

This is the one where someone gets promoted, or gets a course, or gets a promotion, when there are others who may be/may feel they are qualified for. This is the one that can cause more problems I think, for cohesion and morale. Will you see it? Absolutely.

Can it be prevented or bypassed? That's an individual question. I think this one is more of a jealousy issue.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Exactly the cause of the problem. But the professional thing to do would be to respect the fact that all services/trades are essential, and have a contribution to make and their job to do.
> 
> It's when people can't respect that fact that problems and slamming, uniformed posts occur which do nothing but serve cause to ruffle feathers; often intentionally. That is unprofessional.



Totally agree.


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## reccecrewman (11 Mar 2007)

It absolutely exists.  Everytime you see a PLQ course come along and the names from the Regiment are submitted, you can always find people b@!&*ing "I can't believe He's on that course when I don't have it yet".  It's always been there and it always will be.  It's human nature that when there's a career course there, and only a few names can be submitted, there's always people who believe that they should be placed at the top of the list.

Quite often, it's time and place and people have a tough time grasping this one.  The Regiment is given so many slots on a course and we have to fill them, but wait - we have a Squadron deployed overseas and another Squadron doing work up training to relieve that overseas Squadron. So now, there's guys that are left in that third Squadron that are going to be course loaded because the other two Squadrons personnel can't be considered.  There was three Troopers on my PLQ course, as well as some Corporal's that may not have been on the course had all three Squadrons been here in Pet.  When that happens, it's up to those young soldiers to take the opportunity handed to them and show what they have. Nevertheless, there are going to be guys in the deployed/deploying Squadrons that are going to be bitter.
That's the way it goes........

Regards


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## Kiwi99 (11 Mar 2007)

I concur with the whole crse issue, can't please everyone after all.  Besides, if someone offeredf me a tour or a crse, I would take the tour.  Admittedly, there may be people that would take the crse, but that is irrelevant.

What about professional jealousy in the sense of refusing to listen to someone who has done something and is trying to pass on the lessons learned from that.  Pride kicks in, and there is the initial denial that someone else knows better.  I believe we are all guilty of it, so anyone who denies it is a liar.  But I believe that this type of professional jealousy is the most damaging and controversial.


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## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2007)

Sometimes there is a Perceived envy, more along the lines someone feels they see envy from others for what they have done.

You then see the person trying to force a discussion to prove his fantasy is true, and that all are jealous of what he or she has done.

Take this thread and this poster  his God Syndrome and his weakness allowed him to go off the deep end, when in fact he could have offered much to all of us with his experience.

Instead, he was angry when people couldn't stand his asinine views, and perceived this as professional envy.

dileas

tess


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## Kiwi99 (11 Mar 2007)

Never thought I would say this, but good post 48th.  This is a good example of what someone might think if they believed they had been hard done by.

Human nature has us envious of all who have it better than we do at that moment in time. No getting around that at all.  But does it limit the CF in any way. In laymans terms, could the CF be a more effeciant org at all levels if people left their egos out of it?

Also, does the feeling on envy or jealousy limit the performance of people and prevent them from conducting tasks to their full potential?


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## TN2IC (11 Mar 2007)

Okay..I know I may be jumping in deep water here too. But what about education of the person? Do they know the "flip side" of that trade? 

Some folks can think they can do the same thing as whatever trade... well they can, if they go threw the same training. 

Am I beating a dead horse?

Edit to Add more stuff.


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## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2007)

Cheers Kiwi (Never thought I would say that! Hey is someone hijacking my computer and I.D...),

I think it does limit the CF.  To me it is the deterioration of the image we as Canadians are, with regards to Soldiery.

Whatever happened to the humble soldier, that did what they had to do, and did not crave admiration of others?  I believe that this new breed of Feelings has spawned a type of troop that acts like today's teen....mememe what about me.

When they do not get it, they fly off the handle and beat their chest.  It has me questioning whether they actually do have control of their feelings.

dileas

tess


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## KevinB (11 Mar 2007)

You see it pretty much everywhere -- part of human nature I guess.

I've noticed that a lot of people in the CF have these issues, one thing the Army as a whole needs to do is remember combat is the end state of business.   Thus those who have been there, hold a lot more street cred than those who have not.
  Shitting on people and telling them Afghan does not mean shit is not a good way to inspire vetrans to passing their info out (I have a specific CWO in mind on this one...)

However I've noticed that many of the BTDT dont hesitate to drop the "war" card, including sometimes when its either not appropriate or diplomatic.

The main issue is that a very small percentage of groups (either the "Dinosaur" or the BTDT) are at fault -- yet by negative interaction with the small segments - that both groups gain discomfort and mistrust of the other.


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## 3rd Herd (11 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> You see it pretty much everywhere -- part of human nature I guess.



Simple and accurate explanation.


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## CdnArtyWife (11 Mar 2007)

I've seen professional envy on the personal level several times. Sometimes by the member themselves sometimes by their spouse.

In most of the cases I have seen it stems from someone having been promoted just after entering their EPZ while their "peers" had been trained a little longer (ranging from a couple months to one year). Dispite that these people who had been trained in their MOC longer entered the CF under different programs, or had, in the past, failed a career course therefore having not entered their own EPZ for the same rank yet. These people knew on the surface that the promotion of the other person was justified...and could explain that to their spouse...but would still grumble and act awkwardly around the newly promoted mbr. Putting a strain on personal and professional relationships.

Some of these people have matured beyond the petty competitiveness and others haven't making it comical to watch the spouses inform eachother with "well my hubby is on XYZ course" and countering with "yeah, well mine is on ABCD tour and will be on XYZ course after but while yours is on FGHI course, my hubby will only have to do the HI portion and will likely get promoted out of it"

OH Pah-leeze!!!

It is human nature. If there weren't some form of envy, jealousy or competition no one would strive to better themselves, for whatever their motives.


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## Roy Harding (11 Mar 2007)

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> ... If there weren't some form of envy, jealousy or competition no one would strive to better themselves ...



That is an extremely astute and germane observation!


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## orange.paint (11 Mar 2007)

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> and could explain that to their spouse...but would still grumble and act awkwardly around the newly promoted mbr. Putting a strain on personal and professional relationships.



And the funny part is when Mcpl x goes on course y that he complained he deserved better and fails off it.

Its been a good year for Karma.....for myself anyway.Absolutely beautiful.
Realise when you are jealous,make sure you are competent enough to do the job your jealous the other guys getting.Otherwise you look dumb.

People are still also under the idea that it's like 1988 when it comes to promotions.Sgt bloggins WILL get promoted next as he has the most TI. TI is slowley being replaced with job knowledge,performance and competence.Not always  related to TI.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2007)

There's one that always got my goat:  Spouses wearing their partner's rank in the mess/CANEX/PMQ Patch, especially to troops. 

  "Do you know who my husband is, Cpl?" 

   "No ma'am, but it appears to me you must be much better at his job than he is, or HE'D be standing here jacking me up instead of letting his wife do it."


She was the Chief Cooks wife, and I got a week on duty for it.

  Jealousy on the job?  I was guilty of it every time someone got a course, task, or position that I wanted too.


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## CdnArtyWife (11 Mar 2007)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> There's one that always got my goat:  Spouses wearing their partner's rank in the mess/CANEX/PMQ Patch, especially to troops.
> 
> "Do you know who my husband is, Cpl?"
> 
> ...


haha
What's funny is I've been the victim of someone's spouse trying to "pull rank" on me. I found out later that my husband actually outranked hers...little did I know. I just politely informed her that though I support my hubby in his job and wear the "invisible" uniform...mine only comes with a rank that allows me to be two ranks ahead of my hubby in the domestic dept. Other than that I don't acknowledge rank...other than to greet people with the appropriate respect...and that only accounts for the members themselves. She left with her tail between her legs.


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> The main issue is that a very small percentage of groups (either the "Dinosaur" or the BTDT) are at fault -- yet by negative interaction with the small segments - that both groups gain discomfort and mistrust of the other.



Ah! Yes!  The "Dinosaur" or the "BTDT of Yesteryear"    Vs     the "BTDT of Today" soon to be the "Dinosaur of Tomorrow".  Funny thing all that.


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## Kiwi99 (11 Mar 2007)

BTDT?  What the hell does that mean?  Bacon Tomato ...


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## Scott (11 Mar 2007)

Been There, Done That


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## Yrys (11 Mar 2007)

It's even in the military words Compendium  

http://army.ca/words/?function=showall&showlett=B


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## Kiwi99 (11 Mar 2007)

I think that with people trying to pass on their experiances, it may be viewed as bragging, especially with ref to Afghanistan.  But on the other habd, I think it is also a good tool for releasing tension or other issues.  There is definitley a line not to be crossed, and it rarely is, but sometimes it will happen.

I have found for myself that I can talk freely about my experiances with my buddies that were there with me, but not so much to other people.  Perhaps I am not normal, who knows.

With ref to professional envy though, I think I am correct in saying that career soldiers must be envious of those who have been there when they have not.  I sure as hell know that I get pissed whenever I watch the news and see LAVS  heading out on a mission.  I am probably the most envious of all, and I know how bad it can get from experiance.

But does that interfere with the everyday running of the green machine?  I hope not, but I am unsure.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> I think that with people trying to pass on their experiances, it may be viewed as bragging, especially with ref to Afghanistan.  But on the other habd, I think it is also a good tool for releasing tension or other issues.  There is definitley a line not to be crossed, and it rarely is, but sometimes it will happen.



I'll refer to another post from LavIsGod for an example:

Passing on your experiences etc is one thing and is respected. It's unprofessional when you choose to throw in useless, spammy, unintelligent, and untrue comments like the one I've highlighted that causes the problems.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/57559/post-528375.html#msg528375


> ...
> And it is not a crime for him to think that.  What is a crime is the obvious jealousy that has already started at the emention of combat badges.  Sure, now some people will have nothing to substantiate all ther stories, and others may realise that a rocket attack in KAF is not combat.  Do not begrudge the combat veterans for wanting recognition. * they were doing a job that others couldnt do * for people that even now glorify their time in KAF with tales of rocket attacks and power outtages.  The Canadian combat veterans of Afghanistan deserve better than a lot of the comments suggest...
> ...
> With ref to 3VP being awarded a GG Award for thie OP APOLLO gig, come on.  Snipers returned fire and killed, *the rest walked up a mountain.  There is no way that you can compare that tour to what is going on now. *  Congrats to the combat vets from the RCR.  You will understand where I amcoming from.



If it weren't for the highlighted parts, this had the promise to be a professional post. Fact of the matter is, that was a matter of what position they were placed into in the CFTPO...to state that it is because the others (their infantry brethern at that) *couldn't do the job * is absolutely false, the others just never had the opportunity due to the fate of their position number. That's the facts.

In the second part that is highlighted, this poster is actually begruding the fact and calling his fellow infanteers unworthy because they only happened "to walk up a mountain." So what? They did so. They did so willingly and voluntarily!! *They were willing to fight and die.* They didn't have to...but  they were damn well willing to...and there's some people out there who desperately need to grasp that fact.

Crap like this is not professional, no matter how you choose to slice it as far as I'm concerned.


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## Kiwi99 (11 Mar 2007)

And that is the line not to be crossed that I mentioned.  I agree wholeheartedly with Librarian on this one.  That is why I think it is best kept to buddies and family.

So professional jealousy comes in all shapes and forms, and is something that is unavoidable given human nature.  I think that it may be agood thing in the sense that it motivates people, but a bad thing in that it can hinder progress, and potentially single people out.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2007)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> So professional jealousy comes in all shapes and forms, and is something that is unavoidable given human nature.  I think that it may be agood thing in the sense that it motivates people, but a bad thing in that it can hinder progress, and potentially single people out.



Similarly, unjustly accusing others of "professional jealousy" just because they won't bow down to one's opinion is equally poisonous to rational debate.


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## Popurhedoff (11 Mar 2007)

I know "HitorMiss" is jealous of my hair


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## Yrys (11 Mar 2007)

Hum, in what capacity does your profession requires you to have hair ?


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## Sig_Des (11 Mar 2007)

Popurhedoff said:
			
		

> I know "HitorMiss" is jealous of my hair



That's only because he hasn't discovered the secret of the styling grit....

Seriously, I think we can all see that there will be some professional envy, at any point in our careers....but I'd also like to think, no more no less than any large performance/qualification driven corporations.


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## Yrys (11 Mar 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I'd also like to think, no more no less than any large performance/qualification driven corporations.



It may be different with the soldiers that live on the base, as they are seeing, hearing more
often then someone working for a corporation, be it by themselves, theirs spouses or collegues,
about the difference on courses, etc some others have.


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## Sig_Des (11 Mar 2007)

Yrys said:
			
		

> It may be different with the soldiers that live on the base, as they are seeing, hearing more
> often then someone working for a corporation, be it by themselves, theirs spouses or collegues,
> about the difference on courses, etc some others have.



I dunno...I've been in factory towns where everyone lives in the same area, and the rumour mill is just as extensive as in a PMQ Patch.

Brings up an interesting point, though. Do you think that the professional envy is heightened due to the shape and nature of the community? IE, living in close proximity, spouses talking to other spouses about achievements, etc.?


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## Chimo (11 Mar 2007)

So back to the original question, obviously, jealousy and envy does exist in the CF, but hey what do I know, I just walked up a mountain...with a fine bunch of soldiers.


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## orange.paint (11 Mar 2007)

Hell I haven't even seen the mountain....Imagine how jealous I am. ;D


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## 2 Cdo (12 Mar 2007)

Chimo said:
			
		

> So back to the original question, obviously, jealousy and envy does exist in the CF, but hey what do I know, I just walked up a mountain...with a fine bunch of soldiers.



Well said, I concur.

Jealousy and envy, we know everyone else is jealous of the infantry due to our good looks and charm! ;D


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## Sig_Des (12 Mar 2007)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> we know everyone else is jealous of the infantry due to our good looks and charm! ;D



Nah, we're just jealous of your great powers of imagination  ;D


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## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2007)

I prefer to think there is a difference between envy and jealousy.

I'm envious about a lot of stuff in the CF.  People who are in crazy good shape. People who get cool courses. Guys and girls with the awesome BTDT stories. Guys who can grow hair..

I'm not jealous of anything however.   For lack of a better explination I see jealousy as a negitive emotion where as I see envy as 'you lucked in, good for you. Wish that was me'.

When someone like in HitOrMiss's example of the pte getting the course over the cpl is put in that position I can see how someone may get jealous but I would consider it more like bad leadership and someone rightly feeling pissed off because they were boned.


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## GUNS (12 Mar 2007)

Definition of "jealousy, people who don't have the same work standards as the person they are jealous of.


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## Journeyman (12 Mar 2007)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> When someone like in HitOrMiss's example of the *pte getting the course over the cpl * is put in that position I can see how someone may get jealous but I would consider it more like *bad leadership and someone rightly feeling pissed off because they were boned*.


While not specific to this thread, in your example don't ignore the possibility that the Cpl just isn't as terrific as he may believe. 

I've also seen this happen, but the one who got passed over, and tends to bitch constantly regardless, may have sealed his own fate - - "you are your own career manager"


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## KevinB (12 Mar 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ah! Yes!  The "Dinosaur" or the "BTDT of Yesteryear"    Vs     the "BTDT of Today" soon to be the "Dinosaur of Tomorrow".  Funny thing all that.



Regarding the comments on BTDT.  I sat and scratched my head at this comment for a bit then had a good laugh.

Back in the day (get your helmet on folks) - We used to look up at people who had a tour of Cyprus - how cool (no one really looked up the the guys partying in Germany "keeping us safe from the Russians") - Then Somalia started to run up -- and it was like wow - we have people going into combat, the BC (SB) of E Bty stood and said - men, some of you are going to war... with the deployment to Somalia (too bad only one OP and a few others went - the rest of us drank in Cyprus) and as well Yugo kicked up.  So the "there I was drunk in Cyprus again" stories lost the cool.  A few incidents in the Balkans and boom the guys who where on UNPROFOR then IFOR then SFOR where the BTDT's.

However for "real" combat since WWII all we really had was Korean vets and none of them are still active.  Very few vets arre visible in the communities or the military, exceptions being Remembrance Day.

Boom 911 happens and 3VP gets the spotlight and marches off to war.
    By and large the TIC's are specific to the Snipers, Recce Elements -- and other CF entities...
 Major casualties are cause by an errant USAF strike.

In pops ASIF (the more realistic assemble of the ISAF name) which does not really do much (Eurocorps bah)

OEF pops back up and TF106 is making news.
 ISAF finds a backbone TF306 goes to war and Op Medusa
 TF107 just went hunting.



 In a volunteer army - no one really controls where they go and what they do.
Looking down on people since they did not have the same tour as you, is not right.  The fact remains that the soldiers elsewhere had a job to do while you where doing yours.  Next time they may be "doing the business" and you are sweeping the parade square...

 That said as cbt is the be all and end all of the warrior profession - it behooves all of us to learn from the BTDT's, not to attempt to belittle their efforts or minimuse their sacrifices.   Additionally its extremly unprofessonal to insult others efforts in the face of the enemy - just because they had the guts to go looking for the enemy and the enemy was not there.  Lastly - chest beatings and the "I've been to war" comments get stale - since there is always someone out there that has been there longer and dome more than you - who is just silently sitting drinking his beer.

Those who have, have a responsibility to offer their lessons to the rest, those who have not, learn.  - that applies to a lot more things in life than just this.







Edit: I cant type - and my spelling is not very good either...


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## HItorMiss (12 Mar 2007)

+1 I6

It takes balls to walk into what you think is an enemy strong point regardless of wether the enemy is there or not. heck just deploying takes intestinal fortitude to some some degree.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2007)

> While not specific to this thread, in your example don't ignore the possibility that the Cpl just isn't as terrific as he may believe.



For sure.  Some guys would just have the course wasted on them.  I guess that brings up the argument of time in vs who's the best man or woman for the course.

Also, WRT the example, we've all seen the ugly beast known as the old boys club.



> In a volunteer army - no one really controls where they go and what they do.
> Looking down on people since they did not have the same tour as you, is not right.  The fact remains that the soldiers elsewhere had a job to do while you where doing yours.  Next time they may be "doing the business" and you are sweeping the parade square...
> 
> That said as cbt is the be all and end all of the warrior profession - it behooves all of us to learn from the BTDT's, not to attempt to belittle their efforts or minimuse their sacrifices.   Additionally its extremly unprofessonal to insult others efforts in the face of the enemy - just because they had the guts to go looking for the enemy and the enemy was not there.  Lastly - chest beatings and the "I've been to war" comments get stale - since there is always someone out there that has been there longer and dome more than you - who is just silently sitting drinking his beer.



Awesome comment.  I think it's a matter of humility and respect on both ends.


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## GUNS (12 Mar 2007)

Nice read, Infidel-6


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