# Reservists in AFG



## MARS (28 Oct 2008)

Didn't see this posted anywhere else.  Please delete if it has.

An article from Christie Blatchford, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081028.wblatchre28/BNStory/National/columnists

Fighting for the honour of serving their country
Reservists, who compete for limited number of spots on each deployment, finally get respect after years avoiding chopping block 

CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD 

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

October 28, 2008 at 5:09 AM EDT

BROCKVILLE, ONT. — When Task Force 3-08 was fully in place in Afghanistan by the end of last month, few Canadians realized that 537 of the 2,500 newly deployed troops - more than a fifth - are reservists, or part-time soldiers.

Six rotations and almost three years after the Canadian army first moved into Kandahar province, reservists remain the untold story of Canada's mission there.

Eight of them, drawn from regiments across six provinces, have lost their lives while in Afghanistan, in ways typical of the infinite variety of guises in which death arrives in that part of the world - in battle and by mortar, in roadside bombing and suicide attack, through traffic accident and accidental shooting.

An unknown number of others - the Canadian Forces doesn't release information about the wounded - have been injured, the most famous of them Captain Trevor Greene of Vancouver's Seaforth Highlanders, who while sitting bare-headed at a village meeting in the spring of 2006 was nearly killed by a man with an axe.

But as the reserves were for decades unloved by the big brains at the Department of National Defence in Ottawa - only four years ago, some of the country's 125 militia regiments actually ran out of ammunition - so does their contribution today go largely unnoticed.

In Afghanistan, reservists - the preferred term is "citizen soldiers" - take the same risks and do the same jobs as full-time members of the regular force (and once deployed, they are paid the same and receive the same benefits).

Indeed, it's become a common aphorism in the Canadian military, if not an outright article of faith, that if, as the American war reporter Ernie Pyle is widely attributed as saying, there are no atheists in foxholes, neither are there any reservists in a firefight.

The intention is honourable, meaning that finally, after years of ignominy, Canadian reservists are getting the respect they deserve. But there actually are differences between regular-force and reserve soldiers, if not when it matters most.

In a country with no mandatory military service or draft, all Canadian soldiers are volunteers.

But this is doubly true of reservists, who compete with one another to fill the limited number of spots available each mission (until recently, there was a cap of 300 reservists for each Afghan rotation).

And reservists pay a separate price that by definition cannot be asked of the career soldier: They routinely put either job, professional development or schooling on hold in order to take part in the lengthy "work-up" training which, when combined with the six-month tour, means a commitment of a year.

Corporal Joaquim (Jake) David, for instance, is one of 11 members, part of the current rotation, from the 48th Highlanders in downtown Toronto.

The 29-year-old Filipino native, who considers his service a way of giving back to his adopted country, had to quit his well-paying job as a co-leader on the assembly line at car-part manufacturer Magna International; the company, like many, has no "military leave" policy.

He quit in May last year, so he could prepare for the extensive predeployment training.

Or consider Major Lawrence Hatfield, a Newfoundland-born lawyer and reservist with Hamilton's storied Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

Now 37, Major Hatfield deployed to Afghanistan in the spring of 2006, and actually took a rank down to captain so that he could avoid a desk job and serve with soldiers training the Afghan National Army.

But he couldn't leave his practice unattended for almost a year.

So Major Hatfield and his wife, Shari, also a lawyer, put their heads together: His practice was the busier and more profitable of the two, so she quit her law firm to take over his work - and function as a single parent to their two youngsters, Lauren and Lawson.

"Not the stereotypically privileged girl who attends law school," Major Hatfield says of the wife he admiringly calls "the poster woman for military wives. ... She never once asked me not to go," he says. "In fact, she knew I had to go."

Major Hatfield's beloved regiment has 25 soldiers on the current deployment, the largest the Argylls have fielded since the end of the Second World War. The unit has also sent its highest-ranking officer ever, Lieutenant-Colonel Tom Compton, to Kandahar.

The reserves have been under the gun since 1992, when a report from the federal auditor-general suggested they were providing little value for money.

In truth, the report was most critical about the lack of comprehensive planning for the reserves in the department.

But within two years, those same planners were on the brink of issuing orders to close half the militia units across Canada. In the climate of the day - the forces broke and facing further budget cuts - slashing the militia appeared a ready-made quick fix.

As a direct result, a group called Reserves 2000 formed to fight what became a drawn-out series of skirmishes to save the militia.

Probably no regiment was more under siege than the Brockville Rifles, one of the three smallest units in the country and one of a few to bear its community's name in its own.

The regiment's earliest roots - it was mobilized as the 41st Brockville Battalion of Rifles to meet the threat of the Fenian raids launched from across the border by radical Irishmen whose goal was to force England to grant Ireland independence by taking Canada hostage - predate Confederation.

In a way, says commanding officer Rob Parent, now just returned from a stint in Kabul, the regiment, formed as it was to repel a threat from the United States, is "the most uniquely Canadian institution we have."

Riflemen like the Brocks, as the soldiers are called, were the first quick-reaction force, their job to move stealthily. Thus the regimental uniform is subdued: black belt, black gloves, even black buttons on the jacket.

The unit's struggle for survival saw either at least three separate efforts to shut the regiment down or one every two years for about a decade, depending on who's doing the remembering.

But what's inarguable is that the reason the regiment is alive today is, as former honorary colonel John Selkirk says, that it meant enough that the people of Brockville fought for it.

Being under attack by Ottawa "seemed to be a regular occurrence," says Ben TeKamp, an international rowing judge who was the Brockville mayor from 1998 to 2006.

"Some of those bureaucrats said 'Oh, we don't need these armouries in small-town Canada' ", he says, "and every two years, there were rumours they were going to cut or amalgamate the regiment.

"And we'd go on a campaign, lobby our MPs, our minister, even high-ranking national defence officials, get them to understand that ... Brockville welcomes the regiment.

"It was necessary to go to bat for them on a regular basis," Mr. TeKamp says.

He says the tide began to turn with the ice storm of 1998 - the western equivalent came in the form of the Red River floods a year earlier; the Maritime version, the Swissair crash near Peggys Cove, N.S., also in 1998. In all three cases, it was reservists who rode to the rescue and did the dirtiest jobs.

Mr. TeKamp had been in the mayor's office only three days when the ice storm hit, and with power down in the area for four days, he saw the Brocks and their fellow citizen soldiers, as many as 600 in total, at their finest.

"If it hadn't been for the militia," he says simply, "I don't know where we would have turned."

Roger Hum, a native Brockvillian and now-retired teacher, joined the Brocks in 1962 and stayed involved for more than four decades, wearing different hats, as a soldier can only in a small regiment, from deputy commanding officer to recruiting officer.

Now 61, he says the regiment has "been on the chopping block at least three times. ... The threat of downsizing was always there. If we hadn't lobbied the city fathers ... if the citizens of Brockville weren't backing us up," the Brocks would no longer exist.

Every reserve regiment asks its members to give a minimum of a weekend a month and one night a week, and for the Brocks, it is Thursdays.

Mr. Hum remembers the 1970s, when there were few exercises for the troops, "no ammo" and no courses. Mr. Selkirk too, the executive director at Reserves 2000, remembers summer reserve jobs that were abruptly cancelled, leaving students in the lurch.

And all of them, even some of the young soldiers now deploying for Kandahar, remember Thursday nights when the parade square in the old armoury - it was built in 1902 -was almost deserted downtown.

"I remember being on the parade square and there being never anyone above me to teach me," says Sergeant Kevin Colwill. "One time, there was me and three or four guys."
Now 30, this is Sgt. Colwill's second tour to Afghanistan, his fourth overseas deployment as a reservist in 12 years. He's that oxymoron, a full-time reserve soldier, also called a Class B reservist. It means he works only as a soldier, but receives 15 per cent less pay than he would in the regular force. In exchange, he's the master of his own fate.

Astonishingly, for a small outfit from a small Eastern Ontario town of about 25,000, there are 15 Brocks on the current rotation.

In their makeup, they reflect the real strength of the unit - it is more akin to an old-fashioned "county" regiment and has a catchment area of about 100,000 - and how it was misunderstood as disposable.

Many of the young Brocks are, like those interviewed by The Globe before they deployed, from neighbouring farms or nearby villages.

Corporal Justin Mensen was raised on a farm near Delta, Ont. He is the first in his family to join the military. He had a year under his belt at Carleton University in Ottawa when he signed up. He felt a compulsion to go overseas, he says. "Why did I join if I didn't want to go over?"

Corporal Josh Hopper from Lyndhurst, Ont., about 45 minutes by car from Brockville, was one of the first to sign up for what is now the regiment's great success story, its high-school co-op program, which sees students get credits - and good pay, $44 a half-day - for their service.

Corporal Kyle Tennant, now 24, joined for what he now calls selfish reasons - at the time, he was hoping to study physical therapy at college then work in that job in the army.

His marks didn't make the cut, but by then he was a Brock and stayed in while he studied for two years at Carleton University and two more at Algonquin College.

He signed up for Kandahar, he says, because "I wanted the right to wear the uniform. I wanted to know that I did my part."

His girlfriend, a graduate in human kinetics from the University of Ottawa, like many young Canadians, hadn't even heard of the military reserves when they started dating.

But the young woman has since joined a reserve unit herself, the 28th Field Ambulance based in Ottawa, and is back in school studying nursing. And Cpl. Tennant, who in his own words "joined for my own gain" and thought he'd do one tour and get it out of his system, now suspects he may want to do another.

In the bad old days, when the regiment was at its most beleaguered and the parade square empty, the Brocks were often dismissively called "the Broken Rifles."

These days, there may be as many as 130 troops on parade on Thursday nights. There was a fresh class of 30 recruits this summer and the co-op program is spreading to other towns: The Rifles are broken no more.

Perhaps one day soon Canadians will learn the difference, as Mr. Selkirk says scornfully of Ottawa military bureaucrats at their worst, between "knowing the price of everything, and the value of fuck all."


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## JSR OP (28 Oct 2008)

UP THE BROCKS!!!

Col Selkirk was my first CO, and Maj Hum was the Recruiting officer when I went through The Armoury's  doors way back in 1988.

Best of luck to all deployed Brocks.

Stay safe troops


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## Greymatters (28 Oct 2008)

A good article but I dislike how it implies that the headquarters of the DND dislikes and poorly supports the reserves, or is actively trying to shut down units.  Efforts to shut down armouries, and lack of funds so that ammunition can be purchased or that troops cannot be trained, can be laid solely at the doors of the political elite in our government...


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## dapaterson (28 Oct 2008)

The preservation of dozens of small units (and the Brocks do not parade 130 - nowhere close), all lead by LCols with CWOs is unsustainable - from a qualitative perspective, at least.  What prevents a military presence in Brockville from being commanded by a Major?  Why must it remain a seperate unit?  Why can't we take a set of geographically proximate units and have a single Commanding Officer, with several Officers Commanding below to keep things running in each location?

Imagine if there wasn't the constant churn to produce another group of LCols and CWOs - with no jobs three years from now when their tenure has expired.  Imagine if we could reduce the HQ burdens somehwat - why, we could even increase the size of units.

Alternatively, imagine if we behaved this way on deployed operations - and insisted that evey time we met a small time mayor it had to be the BG commander (another LCol) -instead of a Sgt or even MCpl?


It's appropriate that the lobby group is called "Reserves 2000" - they're firmly locked in the past.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Oct 2008)

I recall a move to make Reservists purely Civil defense personal, also remember become Op tasked and then had that taken away. The fact that reservists contiuned to serve in the 70,80 & 90's despite being the plaything and punching bag of NDHQ and the DND. Anyone who didn't go through that period will not understand how hard it was to maintain morale in a constantly shifting world lacking direction and purpose.


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## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> A good article but I dislike how it implies that the headquarters of the DND dislikes and poorly supports the reserves, or is actively trying to shut down units.  Efforts to shut down armouries, and lack of funds so that ammunition can be purchased or that troops cannot be trained, can be laid solely at the doors of the political elite in our government...


I'm not sure if that is what Ms Blatchford intended to get across. Remember, politicians sometimes wear uniforms too.


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## Steel Badger (28 Oct 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I recall a move to make Reservists purely Civil defense personal, also remember become Op tasked and then had that taken away. The fact that reservists contiuned to serve in the 70,80 & 90's despite being the plaything and punching bag of NDHQ and the DND. Anyone who didn't go through that period will not understand how hard it was to maintain morale in a constantly shifting world lacking direction and purpose.



Bang on Colin....     And in the 80's we served signing pink paysheets..... meaning that the Army would pay you if the money to do so was ever forthcoming.....


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## CountDC (28 Oct 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The preservation of dozens of small units (and the Brocks do not parade 130 - nowhere close), all lead by LCols with CWOs is unsustainable - from a qualitative perspective, at least.  What prevents a military presence in Brockville from being commanded by a Major?  Why must it remain a seperate unit?  Why can't we take a set of geographically proximate units and have a single Commanding Officer, with several Officers Commanding below to keep things running in each location?
> 
> Imagine if there wasn't the constant churn to produce another group of LCols and CWOs - with no jobs three years from now when their tenure has expired.  Imagine if we could reduce the HQ burdens somehwat - why, we could even increase the size of units.
> 
> ...



Sounds like some units in Nova Scotia - Highlanders with companies all over the place, 1 Fd in Halifax with 84 Bty in Yarmouth. I believe Newfoundland does the same thing with the Regiments there.  Seems to work fine there so why not everywhere else?  Biggest problem with running the military is dealing with the politics - inside and out.


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## Neill McKay (28 Oct 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The preservation of dozens of small units (and the Brocks do not parade 130 - nowhere close), all lead by LCols with CWOs is unsustainable - from a qualitative perspective, at least.  What prevents a military presence in Brockville from being commanded by a Major?  Why must it remain a seperate unit?  Why can't we take a set of geographically proximate units and have a single Commanding Officer, with several Officers Commanding below to keep things running in each location?



Was exactly that sort of consolidation not done a few years ago?  In New Brunswick, the Royal New Brunswick Regiment has companies in several locations (and I believe each Battalion perpetuates one or more former smaller Regiments).  I had the impression that this was done in the '90s but I may be mistaken.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Was exactly that sort of consolidation not done a few years ago?  In New Brunswick, the Royal New Brunswick Regiment has companies in several locations (and I believe each Batallion perpetuates one or more former smaller Regiments).  I had the impression that this was done in the '90s but I may be mistaken.



1RNBR and 2RNBR are still seperate Bn's, with Coy locations throughout NB.


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## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The preservation of dozens of small units (and the Brocks do not parade 130 - nowhere close), all lead by LCols with CWOs is unsustainable - from a qualitative perspective, at least.  What prevents a military presence in Brockville from being commanded by a Major?  Why must it remain a seperate unit?  Why can't we take a set of geographically proximate units and have a single Commanding Officer, with several Officers Commanding below to keep things running in each location?
> 
> Imagine if there wasn't the constant churn to produce another group of LCols and CWOs - with no jobs three years from now when their tenure has expired.  Imagine if we could reduce the HQ burdens somehwat - why, we could even increase the size of units.
> 
> ...


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## Neill McKay (28 Oct 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 1RNBR and 2RNBR are still seperate Bn's, with Coy locations throughout NB.



Yes, but each Company has, I assume, only a Company-sized HQ -- as opposed to there being a separate Regiment in each place where there is a Company.  I'm not trying to argue here, just get a better handle on the organization of the militia.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The preservation of dozens of small units (and the Brocks do not parade 130 - nowhere close), all lead by LCols with CWOs is unsustainable - from a qualitative perspective, at least.  What prevents a military presence in Brockville from being commanded by a Major?  Why must it remain a seperate unit?  Why can't we take a set of geographically proximate units and have a single Commanding Officer, with several Officers Commanding below to keep things running in each location?



The first question that comes to my mind, and the one that IMO would be the show-stopper is that infers that certain units would disband and rebadge as Unit A.  Is that what you have in mind?

If so, inside politics is what would and likely has stopped it.  Once it started, where would it start and when the dust settled, what units would be the ones that were still standing, why and how many of the Officers, WOs, NCOs and soldiers of the now-disbanded units would actually change cap badges?  I can't speak of other areas, but in 36 and 37 CBG, most people are extremely loyal to the units they are in.

There was talk once about making my old unit (PEIR) D Sqn of the 8 CH.  If that would have happened, I can almost guaruntee you that alteast 80% of the Officers, WOs and Snr NCOs would have opted to turn their kit in.

Not saying its right or wrong, but, with most units in LFAA CBGs, that is just the way it is and its not likely to change soon (if ever).


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## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2008)

We here have intermingled our troops, the lone criteria is that if there is enough of one regiment to form a section, that is the norm. we do have some crossing of Regimental lines, and the troops are very understanding.
We have our BIQ qual troops in two platoons and one platoon of BMQ/SQ qaul troops awaiting SQ or BIQ.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Yes, but each Company has, I assume, only a Company-sized HQ -- as opposed to there being a separate Regiment in each place where there is a Company.  I'm not trying to argue here, just get a better handle on the organization of the militia.



I can't answer that for sure.  However to use an example from 36 CBG, you have 1 NSH with locations in Truro, New Glasgow/Pictou, Springhill, Amherst (small but still there).  Truro is the Bn HQ.  There is 1 CO, 1 RSM for the lot, with Coy HQs in 2 or 3 of the other locations.  My info as to which ones are Coy HQ might be dated alittle so I'll leave it at that.

2 NSH is a different unit, in Sydney and North Sydney Cape Breton, and although they (1NSH and 2NSH) are Bns, they have their own COs and RSMs and are the same unit in name only.


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## CountDC (28 Oct 2008)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Bang on Colin....     And in the 80's we served signing pink paysheets..... meaning that the Army would pay you if the money to do so was ever forthcoming.....



sorry - LOL - New Year Paysheets without fail - Jan to Mar pink was the colour of choice for VOLEM. Royal pain end of Mar when the money came in and all those paysheets had to be posted at once - especially when we did them by hand before the OOPS system for reserves came along.

I am sure everyone remembers the cut back in 97 when they did major cuts to all the HQs to give more troops on the ground. LFAA went from somewhere around 250 to 92, supposedly the same for the other Army HQs.  

Can't argue that for years reserves have been looked down upon by the regular force. Often regular force would not salute reserve officers, even CWO's doing a CT were made to go to Cornwallis. Times have changed a lot and the reserves are getting a lot more well deserved respect now. Mind you I think in some cases reserves were hurt by the conduct of a few. Remember a Cpl transferred to Halifax from I believe it was Toronto in mid 80's and he was shocked that we actually did infantry training.  The unit he came from was a social club at the time.


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## manhole (28 Oct 2008)

We had  Reservists from 89th Bty 3 Fd Regt do a tour last year to Afghanistan.   They are fine young men who have been serving their country for quite a few years.   Reservists do a fine job at supplementing the regular force.   They are to be commended for their service - sometimes under less than ideal conditions, i.e. non-supportive employers, limited training days, unpredictable paychecks, etc.   I had the great honour of serving with the Reserves for 32 years and I met some keen and motivated young men and women over that time.   In fact, this morning,l I had occasion to speak with a young lady who is now the first female TSM to be appointed, I believe,  in the 3 Fd Regt.   I salute all those who serve in the Reserves.   Ubique


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## Old Sweat (28 Oct 2008)

Let me stick my oar in here. Since the Brockville Rifles is being discussed, let's review its geographical position. Sorry if this is pedantic, but you should get my drift. Brockville lies on the St Lawrence about an hour's drive east of Kingston and about the same west of Cornwall and south of Ottawa. All four centres are home to one or more reserve units. Let's deal with the three in the Seaway Valley, the SD&G Higglanders in Cornwall, the Brockville Rifles in Brockville and the PWOR in Kingston. (In the last, there is another reserve unit, the H&PE Regt, another hour's drive to the west in Belleville.) So let's address these four units covering a few hundred kilometres of Highway 401.

Could we achieve major personnel savings by having one battalion headquarters and four sub-units stretching along the southern border of Eastern Ontario? (I know the Hasty Ps have a company in Pterborough, so maybe it becomes five.) First - what about personnel administration? I submit that each will have to maintain an orderly room and an adjutant et al by any other names to service their personnel. The same with a QM and a recruiting cell and a tasking cell and a . . . Oh, and did I mention somebody to sort out the pay issues? Maybe in these cases where the geographical spread is fairly large, the savings are only in the nature of a few relatively senior positions, along with perhaps the honouraries. Is it worth the hassle? We are not talking about, say the Minto Armoury in Winnipeg, with two infantry regiments under the same roof. To my tiny mind, we will end up with five 'separate' units, one commanded by a LCol and the others by (bolshie-minded) majors, each self-administering, but suddenly with three angry senates and honouraries all pulling all the political strings they can reach.

Will someone please explain the errors in my thinking to me? Please use real life examples in similar geographical and demographic situations.


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## gun runner (28 Oct 2008)

"  Reservists do a fine job at supplementing the regular force.   They are to be commended for their service - sometimes under less than ideal conditions, i.e. non-supportive employers, limited training days, unpredictable paychecks, etc.       I salute all those who serve in the Reserves.  " 

Thanks for the kind words FIDDLEHEAD. Know that it is appreciated by all of us, reservists and former reservists alike. I served in the RCA in the late 80's early 90's, and can attest to the days of yore! Again, thanks. Ubique


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## TangoTwoBravo (28 Oct 2008)

Before we post about amalgamation/tactical groupings I highly recommend a read through this thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24381/post-1170.html#msg1170. 

Cheers

T2B


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## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2008)

A bit more old grist for the latest re-grinding:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/19482.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17136.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/16197.0.html

Back to your regularly scheduled forum discussion...


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## dapaterson (28 Oct 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The first question that comes to my mind, and the one that IMO would be the show-stopper is that infers that certain units would disband and rebadge as Unit A.  Is that what you have in mind?



In the UK TA they've created a City of London Regiment, with multiple cap-badges, and it seems to work out all right.  No reason to lose those parts of the unit identity - and perhaps even include a position or three as "Regimental Capt", "Regimental WO", and "Regimetnal Clerk" - giving the unit an extra Capt, WO and Cpl to sustain the history, and provide extra depth on the bench.

Lots of ways to be creative and make things better - if we don't get worked up and are able to work together.

And as for the River Regiments;  Why not take five and make two?  Pay admin can be doen centrally - faxes, scanned documents by email or other methods.

The problem is numbers:  Try to take a pool of 75 trained soldiers (about what you've got in the Brocks) and, every three years, produce one LCOl and one CWO.  Do you get the depth of experience you want?  Do you get the quality you want - or do you get the Last Man Standing?  (Not always - let me hasten to add - but it is a perpetual problem).

Yes, there will be some duplication across different locations.  But if somehow the Engineers are bright enough to have a single LCol command two sqns, one in Calgary and another in Edmonton, can't we find an infantryman (or two) just as capable?


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2008)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Let me stick my oar in here. Since the Brockville Rifles is being discussed, let's review its geographical position. Sorry if this is pedantic, but you should get my drift. Brockville lies on the St Lawrence about an hour's drive east of Kingston and about the same west of Cornwall and south of Ottawa. All four centres are home to one or more reserve units. Let's deal with the three in the Seaway Valley, the SD&G Higglanders in Cornwall, the Brockville Rifles in Brockville and the PWOR in Kingston. (In the last, there is another reserve unit, the H&PE Regt, another hour's drive to the west in Belleville.) So let's address these four units covering a few hundred kilometres of Highway 401.
> 
> Could we achieve major personnel savings by having one battalion headquarters and four sub-units stretching along the southern border of Eastern Ontario? (I know the Hasty Ps have a company in Pterborough, so maybe it becomes five.) First - what about personnel administration? I submit that each will have to maintain an orderly room and an adjutant et al by any other names to service their personnel. The same with a QM and a recruiting cell and a tasking cell and a . . . Oh, and did I mention somebody to sort out the pay issues? Maybe in these cases where the geographical spread is fairly large, the savings are only in the nature of a few relatively senior positions, along with perhaps the honouraries. Is it worth the hassle? We are not talking about, say the Minto Armoury in Winnipeg, with two infantry regiments under the same roof. To my tiny mind, we will end up with five 'separate' units, one commanded by a LCol and the others by (bolshie-minded) majors, each self-administering, but suddenly with three angry senates and honouraries all pulling all the political strings they can reach.
> 
> Will someone please explain the errors in my thinking to me? Please use real life examples in similar geographical and demographic situations.



OS,

I think you focused in on the real issue.

1.  Logically, that would make the most sense financially and from a "army thinking" mind.

2.  Policitically is where this would brew up, and likely has, in the past.  There was talk about making my old PRes unt (PEIR, the only Army unit in PEI at the time) D Sqn of the 8 CH, HQs in Moncton.  Logically it made sense as we were, by numbers, a Sqn commanded by a LCol.  However, you can bet that had that of happened, you would have seen a very small number of the Officers and mbrs of the WOs and Sgts mess and the senior members of the Jnr Ranks mess on parade at the rebadging.  The loss of 'unit identity', the loss of the Guidon, the Regimental cap badge, etc would have had many members simply turn in their kit.  I suspect that this would be a likely effect across the PRes were units disbanded and people being told to change units.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> In the UK TA they've created a City of London Regiment, with multiple cap-badges, and it seems to work out all right.  No reason to lose those parts of the unit identity - and perhaps even include a position or three as "Regimental Capt", "Regimental WO", and "Regimetnal Clerk" - giving the unit an extra Capt, WO and Cpl to sustain the history, and provide extra depth on the bench.
> 
> Lots of ways to be creative and make things better - if we don't get worked up and are able to work together.



Now that I can see working.


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## dapaterson (28 Oct 2008)

ltimately, we need to find ways to present options that are palateable and explain what they mean and what they will involve - try some "key leader engagements" to ensure openness.  Coming down from on high, becasue somone in a cubicle in Ottawa has decided upon the perfect solution (uncontaminated by the real world) wouldn't work.


And, to bring it back on topic, the goal is to improve the ability of units to force generate for missions at home or abroad.  Reduce the pressure to find the next CO/RSM, and let people get experience.


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## Old Sweat (28 Oct 2008)

The role of the militia for the last century and a bit has been force generation, not as the first line of defence. This dates back to the Boer War where the militia provided individuals to 2 RCR and parts of sub-sub-units for the second contingent, through the national efforts of the First and Second Wars and during the NATO build-up of the early fifties. The only regression into a traditional model (with a non-traditional role) was the national survival experiment of the late-fifties and early-sixties. In recent years the militia has moved away from the total force and 10/90 experiments to the provision of very high quality individuals. The force structure, however, has remained firmly wed to the nineteenth century model that responded to the Fenian Raids of 1866 and 1870 and the Northwest Rebellion of 1885.

As Dave so wisely noted, it will take careful management of the file so that the reserves can rightly come up with a solution. I certainly would not care to poke that sleeping bear.


----------



## Babbling Brooks (28 Oct 2008)

It seems to me that a lot of the discussion surrounding the reserves focuses on achieving efficiency.  I'm not sure that's really what we need in a Reserve Force.  U.S. Army Colonel H.R. McMaster isn't addressing that issue specifically, but this passage from his latest paper seems applicable to the discussion going on here:



> Moreover, efficiency in war means barely winning, and in war, barely winning is an ugly proposition. In war one seeks to overwhelm the enemy such that he is unable to take effective action; the business principle of maximum payoff for minimum investment does not apply. The complexity and uncertainty of war require decentralization and a certain degree of redundancy, concepts that cut against business’s emphasis on control and efficiency.



In other words, cutting out the fat is all fine and good until you hit lean times and the fat is what keeps you from starving.  Shutting down or consolidating units have knock-on effects that may well fall into the category of unintended consequences.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (29 Oct 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> In the UK TA they've created a City of London Regiment, with multiple cap-badges, and it seems to work out all right.  No reason to lose those parts of the unit identity - and perhaps even include a position or three as "Regimental Capt", "Regimental WO", and "Regimetnal Clerk" - giving the unit an extra Capt, WO and Cpl to sustain the history, and provide extra depth on the bench.



Outside observer, so take your own value from the following

The use of secondary titles seems to not last. 
A Canadian example is the 4th Battalion of The Royal Canadian Regiment which was formerly the 4th Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment (London and Oxford Fusiliers) only from 1958 to 1989 (1958 - 1970 as 3rd Battalion, the Royal Canadian Regiment (London and Oxford Fusiliers)). There a lot more British Examples of this, unfortunately the best online resource, regiments.org has vanished from the Internet.


----------



## Blacksmith (29 Oct 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I recall a move to make Reservists purely Civil defense personal, also remember become Op tasked and then had that taken away. The fact that reservists contiuned to serve in the 70,80 & 90's despite being the plaything and punching bag of NDHQ and the DND. Anyone who didn't go through that period will not understand how hard it was to maintain morale in a constantly shifting world lacking direction and purpose.



Well said! I remember going out on Exercises with no blanks for the FNC1 and having to yell "bang!" or "bullets!" instead. It was, at first, kind of humiliating. But the first person who yelled "cutbacks!" instead won not only our respect, but our howls of laughter too.
It's nice to see things changing for the better.


----------



## Haggis (29 Oct 2008)

Blacksmith said:
			
		

> I remember going out on Exercises with no blanks for the FNC1 and having to yell "bang!" or "bullets!" instead.



The Regular Force did that in the 70's and 80's as well.  Another thing both components had in common (but probably failed to realize it).


----------



## the 48th regulator (29 Oct 2008)

Blacksmith said:
			
		

> Well said! I remember going out on Exercises with no blanks for the FNC1 and having to yell "bang!" or "bullets!" instead. It was, at first, kind of humiliating. But the first person who yelled "cutbacks!" instead won not only our respect, but our howls of laughter too.
> It's nice to see things changing for the better.




Aha,

I remember carrying the FNC2, and having the privelage of being issued very specdial blanks in the Militia (As we called it back then);

"BUDGETCUT....BUDGETCUT...BUDGETCUT!"

And we carried an Onion tied to our belt, becasue that was the style in those days....

dileas

tess


----------



## brihard (29 Oct 2008)

Another great article by Ms. Blatchford.

I've been on courses with two of the guys in the article, and currently work with a third. Funny to see such familiar names and faces in the national press.



It's a small army. I know someone will get the reference:


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2008)

Brihard is there a link to whatver you are talking about?


----------



## Haggis (29 Oct 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It's a small army. I know someone will get the reference:



Hahahahah!!!  PM inbound.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2008)

My apoligies Brihard.,....should have looked at the beginning of this thread....doooohhhhh :clown:


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2008)

This article describes a great success story, namely, the reserves are doing a great job at force generation for Afghanistan and are sharing the load equally with their regular force counterparts. Despite the challenges of the past morale is good, quality is good and improving, and I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to pick out the reservists from any one of the rifle companies in action right now. Hell, we've even got a reservist who has won the MMV in battle recently (Capt Rob Peel). 

Why change anything?


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2008)

Did anyone read the comments after Ms. B's article?
Interesting.


----------



## Danjanou (29 Oct 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Did anyone read the comments after Ms. B's article?
> Interesting.



yup nice to see you and another old army.ca alumni on there trying to set the masses straight.

By the way Tess it was "budget cuuut' you had to drag out the last syllable to get that full 2-3 round burst. 8)


----------



## Haggis (29 Oct 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Did anyone read the comments after Ms. B's article?
> Interesting.



I read some of them, but then my computer crashed (right off my desk....after my fist hit the monitor).


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2008)

Haggis I really did LOL after that one!! How's the new computer!!





			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> I read some of them, but then my computer crashed (right off my desk....after my fist hit the monitor).


----------



## leroi (29 Oct 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Did anyone read the comments after Ms. B's article?
> Interesting.



I tend not to read the comments because I usually find them upsetting: i.e. the stupidity of one person suggesting Canada's "occupation" of Afghanistan.

But yes, because you mentioned it, I went ahead and read them.

I did recognize one alumni from army.ca.  

(It's good to see more expository pieces in the MSM on the CF--whether Reserve or Regular.)


----------



## Haggis (29 Oct 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Haggis I really did LOL after that one!! How's the new computer!!



This one's got Windows XP!!  (No friggin' Vista for this kid.)

Some people just don't get it.  My bet is that "JR L from Windsor"has not even never served a day in unform but has never met a CF member face to face.  It irks me that his post compares us in Afghanistan to the Nazis of WW2 in that we are now, in his eyes, engaged in "the same type of Imperial colonialism" as practised by the Nazi's.

Or am I reading that wrong???


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2008)

A few of these people need to take a trip to the Sandbox and get a dose of reality. I beleive in rights to free speech, but to spout off uninformed garbage makes me want to vomit.


----------



## CountDC (29 Oct 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The Regular Force did that in the 70's and 80's as well.  Another thing both components had in common (but probably failed to realize it).



Your right for the 80's - the ones I talked to  didn't realize it as they blamed each other for the shortage.  If we didn't give so many to the reserves we would have them, if  the regular force didn't hoard them all we would have enough. Of course there was also the "why are we wasting ammo on training support trades" in both components which is still around today.


----------



## Haggis (29 Oct 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Of course there was also the "why are we wasting ammo on training support trades" in both components which is still around today.



Because the Taliban insist on shooting at them!  If we can get them to stop then we wouldn't have a problem.

Frankly, our foes can't tell us apart, so why should we worry about it?  As an old former RSM says "There ain't no capbadge on a helmet!"


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## Redeye (29 Oct 2008)

The idiocy of those commenting there knows no bounds - on virtually any subject one is bound only to find "discourse" of no substance whatsoever.  I have to force myself not to look at the comments for fear of some of the complete lack of intelligence shown.  When it came to anything to do with the election it reminded me of Mr. Churchill, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter".  Truly, truly scary stuff.



			
				OldSolduer said:
			
		

> A few of these people need to take a trip to the Sandbox and get a dose of reality. I beleive in rights to free speech, but to spout off uninformed garbage makes me want to vomit.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (29 Oct 2008)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Will someone please explain the errors in my thinking to me? Please use real life examples in similar geographical and demographic situations.



OK - I'll bite.  D Day +1 and the SD&G Highrs storm ashore.  Look carefully and you will see a Glens Battalion Hq, a Glens Coy, A Brocks Coy, and a P Dub Coy.  Worked in a war - why not now (ie a war)?


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## Old Sweat (30 Oct 2008)

I was aware that the Brockville Rifles raised a company to serve in the Glens, or rather that a company was recruited in Leeds and Grenville around a cadre from the Rifles. It also contributed to the Rocky Mountain Rangers. Go figger on that one. So far, so good. However the regiment was later mobilized and served in Canada and Jamaica.

Mind you, the key to making the best use of the reserves is to formulate a plan that is both militarily feasible and politically acceptable to the militia and to its community roots. How do we do that? I have no durn idea.


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## CountDC (30 Oct 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> As an old former RSM says "There ain't no capbadge on a helmet!"



like that - have to remember it next time I have a "friendly discussion" on the issue.


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Nov 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> This article describes a great success story, namely, the reserves are doing a great job at force generation for Afghanistan and are sharing the load equally with their regular force counterparts. Despite the challenges of the past morale is good, quality is good and improving, and I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to pick out the reservists from any one of the rifle companies in action right now. Hell, we've even got a reservist who has won the MMV in battle recently (Capt Rob Peel).
> 
> Why change anything?



I agree that the current situation is likely the best thing that happend to the reserves in a long time, there will be a lot of combat veterns serving in the reserves for many years that will reshape the future, it also shows that the Regular force can not sustain long term operations without the reserve component. the question is how quickly will the lessons be lost when this operation winds down?


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## pict (2 Nov 2008)

I think the reserves will always be the red headed step child of the military.  Although, i feel it has changed slightly in the public eye.  For the regs, i don't think it has changed much at all... They're the professionals and the reserves are the Sunday quarterbacks...


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## Haggis (2 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> I think the reserves will always be the red headed step child of the military.  Although, i feel it has changed slightly in the public eye.  For the regs, i don't think it has changed much at all... *They're the professionals and the reserves are the Sunday quarterbacks*...



WTF??

Please enlighten me as to how Reservists serving in Afghanistan (the topic of this thread) are "Sunday quarterbacking"?


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## GDawg (2 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> I think the reserves will always be the red headed step child of the military.  Although, i feel it has changed slightly in the public eye.  For the regs, i don't think it has changed much at all... They're the professionals and the reserves are the Sunday quarterbacks...



I reckon the current mission has done a great deal to change impressions. From my experience overseas the military is so undermanned that extra hands are more than welcome and that people are judged by their performance and attitude rather by big "R" or little "r". Not to say that in some units the culture hasn't evolved to reflect *reality*, but I certainly did not serve in one of those units. I expected there to be a witch hunt for reservists to mock and I didn't find that, except in jest. A few of the guys actually didn't realize I was a reservist until we got to Cyprus, and again, I didn't realize that some of them were also reservists until we were wheels up and Canada bound.


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## pict (2 Nov 2008)

I don't believe reservists are Sunday quarterbacks at all... however, there is absolutely most definitely that attitude from my experience... In some instances there is almost a resentment amongst some reg forces...


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## PuckChaser (2 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> They're the professionals and the reserves are the Sunday quarterbacks...



I hope you're just trolling and don't honestly believe that. Probably the most ignorant thing I've heard said about reservists who march the same miles, carry the same weight, and drive over the same roads as the Reg F members, and do so with the same professionalism and dedication expected of any Canadian Forces member. I've seen some Big R members who I would never deem professional, as have I seen reservists who should never have passed a CFAT.


----------



## pict (2 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> I don't believe reservists are Sunday quarterbacks at all... however, there is absolutely most definitely that attitude from my experience... In some instances there is almost a resentment amongst some reg forces...


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## pict (2 Nov 2008)

New here... but please read what I said...


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## Haggis (2 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> I don't believe reservists are Sunday quarterbacks at all...


Really??  But earlier, in reply #50, YOU said they were.

Sort yourself out.


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## pict (2 Nov 2008)

In reply fifty i was referring to the regs attitude... Is it becoming clearer... and to make it crystal clear... I"M A RESERVIST... and to make it even clearer... I was training with the regs and that is the attitude that I saw... particularly with the younger reservists...not so much with me... hopefully that's sorted out now.


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## PhilB (2 Nov 2008)

buds, I dont know what you are smoking, or who you have worked with but.... I was on 1-06 and then 1-08 I have worked and trained and been augmented with 1, 2, and 3 PPCLI in different respects. I have never seen that attitude, except in jest as previously stated. It has been my experience that 99% of reg force guys will take you at face value and judge you based as an individual i.e. make their decision on you as a troop, as a person, just like a new reg force guy coming into a unit. There is the random case of a guy being an asshole but that was few and far between, and usually sorted out by the other reg force guys I was with, instead of by myself. Obviously this is just my experience but maybe it is you, and not reservists that is in issue.


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## Haggis (2 Nov 2008)

Pict:  filling out your profile a bit might give you some credibility here.  PhilB is but a sample of the depth and breadth of experience some junior/younger Reservists have working with the Reg F.

Clearly it seems you, or a buddy of yours, had a "bad go" working with the Reg F.  Look for the reasons and see what can be changed to prevent rercurrence.


----------



## marshall sl (2 Nov 2008)

I remember being given 10 blanks and having to turn them all in on some exs in the 70's


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## pict (3 Nov 2008)

I'm shocked that this is new... really... most of my family has served in the Regs and the reserves i thought this was common knowledge... My cousin is a Captain and he perceives reservists to be males in their twenties that live in their parents basement... that is just something I have heard recently... AGAIN NOT MY OPINION OR MY PERCEPTION OF THE RESERVES.  And i'm not in my twenties or live in my parents basement.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (3 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> I'm shocked that this is new... really... most of my family has served in the Regs and the reserves i thought this was common knowledge... My cousin is a Captain and he perceives reservists to be males in their twenties that live in their parents basement... that is just something I have heard recently... AGAIN NOT MY OPINION OR MY PERCEPTION OF THE RESERVES.  And i'm not in my twenties or live in my parents basement.



 :


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Nov 2008)

Back on topic folks.


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## Haggis (3 Nov 2008)

pict said:
			
		

> My cousin is a Captain and he perceives reservists to be males in their twenties that live in their parents basement



Your cousin needs to get out more.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Back on topic folks.



Gee, Bruce, this was spiralling so nicely.  But, since you asked.....

The average CF Reservist of today is far better positioned to be an equal partner to his Reg F counterpart than ever before.  Nowhere is this truer than in the Air and Naval Reserves. Institutionally, the Army Reserve (and the Army) has a long way to go.  But we must remember that, combined, the number of Air and Naval Reservists barely equals the number of Army Reserivsts in LFCA!  It's a matter of scale vs. resources.


----------



## pict (3 Nov 2008)

Ya... 31 years in the Regs and still going...what does he know...

  Can't speak for the Air Force or Navy ... Although my uncle was in the Air Force for twenty seven years... He never had a bad thing to say about the reserves... just the Army lol... but that was all in good fun ;D


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## 2 Cdo (3 Nov 2008)

The only reserve personel I have seen, in the last few years, that have been treated poorly are the piss-poor troops. Maybe you these troops being looked down on should take a long, hard look in the mirror and sort out their short-comings!


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## Fusaki (3 Nov 2008)

> Ya... 31 years in the Regs and still going...what does he know...



Everyone gets their Corporals and their Captains, buddy.

I'm not saying that there arn't solid career corporals and captains out there. I'm just saying that being a captain with 31 years time in doesn't necessarily mean that the things you say are particularly smart.

By and large, the reservists I've worked with have been a solid bunch of dudes. By the time a rifle coy has swapped it's Regimental headdress for AR CADPAT bushcaps, you'd be hard pressed to pick the reservists out of the crowd.


----------



## GDawg (3 Nov 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Your cousin needs to get out more.
> 
> Gee, Bruce, this was spiralling so nicely.  But, since you asked.....
> 
> The average CF Reservist of today is far better positioned to be an equal partner to his Reg F counterpart than ever before.  Nowhere is this truer than in the Air and Naval Reserves. Institutionally, the Army Reserve (and the Army) has a long way to go.  But we must remember that, combined, the number of Air and Naval Reservists barely equals the number of Army Reserivsts in LFCA!  It's a matter of scale vs. resources.



 From my understanding, Reserve Signalers, who are now Army Reservists (but not in the Army Reserve...) are now on par training wise with commonality of training, including course duration approaching or at parity. Since I started out with the reserves as a medic in 2000, and as a Sig in 2003 things have improved dramatically. There will probably always be a small amount of bias encountered (mostly in garrison) but it seems to be fading at the same rate that our training and operational focus has improved. Good people will always be treated reasonably by reasonable people, but alas the CF will never be able to weed out idiots 100 percent on both sides of the fence.


----------



## pict (3 Nov 2008)

I agree...


----------



## geo (3 Nov 2008)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> The only reserve personel I have seen, in the last few years, that have been treated poorly are the piss-poor troops. Maybe you these troops being looked down on should take a long, hard look in the mirror and sort out their short-comings!


Piss poor reserve troops & piss poor regular troops, standing in a circle doing sweef F A 
You'll find lousy troops everywhere - no one is poking sticks at reserve troops, no one is poking sticks at reg troops either


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Nov 2008)

tic....toc.....ti


Milnet.ca Staff


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## OldSolduer (3 Nov 2008)

I went to Croatia in 93 with 2VP. We had one of the largest Reserve Force compliments in quite a while. They were good. You couldn't pick them apart from the Regulars. Nor did we want to.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Nov 2008)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> The only reserve personel I have seen, in the last few years, that have been treated poorly are the piss-poor troops. Maybe you these troops being looked down on should take a long, hard look in the mirror and sort out their short-comings!



In the many years I spent as a PRes mbr working around my RegF comrades, the only ones who got treated like crap were those who performed in that manner.  However, I can say that the RegF mbrs who performed like crap were treated as such by the Jnr NCOs, Snr NCOs, WOs and Officers we worked with, the same as the PRes sh**tpumps who showed up for a tasking with no more interest in performing than what they were there for;  a pay cheque for 'x' weeks, which gave them stamps for pogy.  Some of those mbr were from my Regiment.  On more than 1 occassion, I found myself saying "MCpl/Sgt/WO/Sgt-Major/Sir, not everyone from "insert unit name here" is a waste of rations...".

It was usually very easy to see, in places like TSS, ABS, etc which ones were there to soldier, and which ones were looking for another winter on pogy.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (3 Nov 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> I went to Croatia in 93 with 2VP. We had one of the largest Reserve Force compliments in quite a while. They were good. You couldn't pick them apart from the Regulars. Nor did we want to.



OS

More than a few of my buddies were on that tour, and IMO, the 3 months work-up trng before deployment sorted out the hackers from the non-hackers.  Just from that DAG for PRes folks in LFAA, many were cut, and more were filtered out in the pre-deployment trng.  From the 12 (from my old unit) that went to Winnipeg, 6-8 made it to the tour, and they were all good troops.  The only thing at that time was, some of them that were good Jnr NCOs had to drop rank, some of them from  MCpl to Tpr.  BUT..they had the choice to do that, and the ones who cared about soldiering and serving did it willingly, and were happy to be on the plane that left Canada.


----------



## Blakey (3 Nov 2008)

'93 was, IMO, the litmist test for the Reserve community.
Like OS said, many were reservists, I myself was only one of two reg force in my section, the majority were from the Westies and aside from my differences with one ( which were mended during a beer or two during the awarding of the citation), we all soldiered on, as it should have been and as it should be today.

I should admit, although quite young at the time ('93, AND having served in a reserve unit prior to boot!), my view on the militia and the reserves in general were quite jaded, maybe it was the times we were living in or my short sightedness.

Fifteen years later and considerably more tours, I see that the reserves are an integral part of the forces makeup.

Once again, IMHO, TF 1-08, reserves made an excellent showing in the BG, even our token reservist's in RECCE PL (tongue plated FIRMLY in cheek).


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2008)

A common thing I've noticed hanging around army.ca is that most of the Reserve bashers have about 2 years in and haven't done a tour yet.....


----------



## HItorMiss (4 Nov 2008)

Other then me eh Bruce....  

Having done my Mod 6 on a course made up entirely of PRes soldiers minus myself, I can say that openly and honestly I was not impressed not even a little. Now this is not an individual thing, many of the candidates have amazing potential that if they had the proper training and time they would make excellent soldiers. The issue is they are not trained properly NO  they are not up to a reg force standard they do very well with the training they do get but it's not GOOD training.

Because of this I still remain unimpressed with with any Res soldier I have worked beside (excluding those who we spent a year getting ready to come on TF 3-06 with us to get them to a proper standard). Again it's not that the individual soldiers are junk (well a few were one Tor Scot comes to mind) just the system that creates them is. And it comes down simply to those who do it professionally and those who play at it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Other then me eh Bruce....



Naw, you'd just be the reason I said "most", not all.

However you have earned the right to air your grievances, unlike the people I mentioned in my post.


----------



## HItorMiss (4 Nov 2008)

Aww I was just poking a wee bit oh fun  ;D

Honestly it's not the individuals as I pointed out (Some are junk but I can find junk down the road from where I work too) It's the training and the system that makes them substandard. They lack the time dedicated to making them good.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Nov 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Other then me eh Bruce....
> 
> Having done my Mod 6 on a course made up entirely of PRes soldiers minus myself, I can say that openly and honestly I was not impressed not even a little. Now this is not an individual thing, many of the candidates have amazing potential that if they had the proper training and time they would excellent soldiers. The issue is they are not trained properly NO  they are not up to a reg force standard they do very well with the training they do get but it's not GOOD training.
> 
> Because of this I still remain unimpressed with with any Res soldier I have worked beside (excluding those who we sent a year getting ready to comeon TF 3-06 with us to get them to a proper standard). Again it's not that he individual soldiers are junk (well a few were ome Tor Scot comes to mind) just the system that creates them is. And it comes down simply to those who do it professionally and those who play at it.



And I will take exception to your remarks. I've spent over 30 years in the uniform of the CF. At one time I would have agreed. Not now. As a CSM, I have a direct say in who goes and who does not go on tour with the Regular Force. I will NOT send thudf%cks. I've gotten feedback from my associates in the Regular Force and they are very happy with our PRes troops. As for the system, did you take the time on the end course critique to point out where improvements could be made?
Did a Mod 6....good for you. Did you spend any time assisting those who weren't up to your standard?


----------



## gun runner (4 Nov 2008)

Ok,Bruce, and why is that? I truly believe there is a line in the sand between the reserves and the reg forces. I am soon to be a CIC officer( you can stop laughing now). My twin brother is a reg forces tech in the 2nd PPCLI. He often refers to me as a 'toon'(future type C1A1). You will understand the context I am sure. This is the attitudes of some(not all) regular forces troops in regards to their reservist brothers in arms. It is an attitude that I as a reservist tolerated whe I served in the 80's and 90's. You know the looks you get when you walk into the mess and all the reg force guys are there, having a drink, you walk by and casually say 'hey, how are ya', and they all look at you like" what the f@#$ are you doing in here?". It happens, I get it. But times are-a-changing, and I fear that attitudes are the last to make the transition to the 'Total Force' concept. Just my two cents. Ubique


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2008)

This is getting dangerously close to the reasoning for all the other locked threads on the same old dead horse subject. As a matter of fact, if nothing different or earth shattering comes along soon, it'll be locked, with the normal caveats, for running out of steam and before it degenerates to the usual name calling.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## HItorMiss (4 Nov 2008)

*sigh*

Hours and hours, did every single patrol not one cycle off, lead study groups and taught after hours lessons to impart skills that were lacking...BTW I topped it

For the record that's not all the interaction I have had with PRes soldiers and I stand by my comments.


As for sending Junk not a single troop i did TF 3-06 with were junk they had great potential which after having a years worth of training with their reg F counter parts saw that potential reached. 

I raised many many issues with the course staff up to and Including the LCol in change of Leadership and Training Coy LFCA oh and Deputy Cmnd LFCA to which with the course staff I received we know you just have to work with them and help them out... to the standard answer you just gave from the highers in the system  (The LCol for example) Don;t sell them short a few years ago maybe yadda yadda, same song and dance no change guess what it doesn't hold water. When we are doing weapons and troops say  (these are you future MCpls btw)  we don;t have that weapon we don't learn it or I have never lead a section attack before well guess what they shouldn't be on this course. The good ones spent the extra time with course staff and myself learning what they were  missing.

I stand by my comments, I am unimpressed with the PRes system and the soldiers it creates full stop.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2008)

I think that "line in the sand" was a lot more prevelent in our time because it was easy for us Reg force guys to keep that air of superiority because, for the most part, very few of us would ever have had to count on a 'toon' to watch our backs.

They do so on a "regular" basis now.....


----------



## HItorMiss (4 Nov 2008)

I am not saying the Pres soldiers are not dedicated nor lcking enthusiasm or even the potential I am saying they do not have the time needed to be trained porperly. Given the time and the resources and by time I mean the time wht Reg soldiers have they make excellent first class soldiers, many have a great deal of potential they are simply let down by the system.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I think that "line in the sand" was a lot more prevelent in our time because it was easy for us Reg force guys to keep that air of superiority because, for the most part, very few of us would ever have had to count on a 'toon' to watch our backs.
> 
> *They do so on a "regular" basis now.....*



Absolutely Bruce I walked into hell with many of them I made my wa to one of them because as my brother I saw he was hurt. I hate to say one of them because after th year we spent getting ready it wasn't a they and us mentality it was a brother.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2008)

All done. 

Thanks for all the fish.

Milnet.ca Staff


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