# Swine Flu argument.



## CANADIAN F0RCES (29 Aug 2009)

http://www.yourspine.com/Chiropractic/Swine+Flu+Vaccine+to+Maim+and+Kill.aspx


CDC States H1N1 Vaccine May Maim and Kill 30,000 Americans, FDA Requires Minimal Efficacy 
CDC says to assume 1 in every 100,000 vaccine recipients will suffer serious side effects, FDA only requires vaccine be effective in 3 out of 10 recipients.

The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has officially stated that there will be as many as 30,000 serious, potentially lethal adverse reactions to the novel H1N1 vaccine, while the FDA guidelines for the novel H1N1 vaccine only require that it work in 3 out of every 10 recipients.

Last Saturday, I attended one of 10 “public engagement” meetings the CDC is holding across the country, utilizing a new model of public engagement designed to provide a public viewpoint or societal perspective on the topic at hand (mass vaccination) to the sponsor (in this case, the CDC).

Part of the process entails the sponsor (CDC) providing the following: “Information on the many sides of an issue is provided to the participants in a fair and balanced manner so that all participants become well-informed, and the overall group process is convened and managed in a neutral, respectful fashion.”

This requirement is met by providing an oral presentation in easy to understand language, a booklet summarizing the key facts needed and a discussion guide summarizing the choices faced.

The assembled group of 80 participants was shown a video, given a brief oral presentation and a printed discussion guide. We were asked to accept several assumptions in considering the topic. We were asked to assume that the severity would be similar to what had already been observed in the spring of 2009; we were told to assume that the vaccination program would be voluntary, not mandatory; we were told to assume that initial vaccine supplies will be available in October but supply would be limited through February 2010.

The most disturbing assumption we were asked to accept dealt with the safety of the novel H1N1 vaccine. In the video, the CDC spokesperson explained that during the 1976 mass vaccination campaign, 1 in every 100,000 recipients of the vaccine developed Guillain Barré syndrome (GBS), a disorder in which the body's immune system attacks the peripheral nervous system often leading to paralysis and death. There is no known cure for GBS.

In 1976 roughly 40 million Americans received the vaccine and some 4,000 developed GBS.

The printed material that was distributed reiterated these horrific statistics and we were asked to accept the assumption that, “the estimated risk for more serious reactions (e.g. Guillain Barré syndrome) is between 1-10 per million persons vaccinated”.

This is a less direct way of stating that the risk is about the same as existed during the 1976 mass vaccination attempt and that as many as 1 in every 100,000 recipients will develop GBS or some other serious adverse reaction. The CDC is setting up a new intensive surveillance system with which to monitor and track GBS cases that result from the novel H1N1 vaccine.

Merriam-Webster defines assumption as a fact or statement taken for granted and assumed to be true. If we accept the documented assumption presented by the CDC, we are to consider it a fact that 1 in every 100,000 vaccine recipients will suffer a serious adverse effect such as GBS.

This means that if the entire U.S. population is vaccinated (a stated goal of the CDC), we are to assume as a fact that 30,000 Americans will suffer debilitating or lethal side effects. Apparently the CDC considers this an acceptable level of collateral damage.

As unthinkable as this is (destroying or ending the lives of as many as 30,000 Americans), that is only part of the story.

The novel H1N1 vaccine being developed must adhere to guidelines set forth by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The FDA has announced that a vaccine will be accepted if it creates antibodies in 4 out of 10 recipients (40%), with at least 70 percent of those 4 achieving an antibody level believed to provide benefit. This means that an acceptable vaccine candidate would provide “protection” for 28% of vaccine recipients (70% of the 40%), or less than 3 in 10 recipients. The requirement drops to 18% efficacy for those over 65 years of age (60% of 30%).

So here are the facts, as documented by the CDC and the FDA:

As many as 30,000 Americans will be harmed by the novel H1N1 vaccine.

The vaccine may be ineffective in more than 7 out of 10 recipients.

And in case you think I am alone in my concerns, here is what several vaccine experts associated with the CDC and the U.S. government say on the subject.

"I am very skeptical of finishing vaccine before we know the appropriate dose to be included in each inoculation, before immunogenicity studies are complete, or before safety assessments have been finished," William Schaffner, MD, Chairman of the Department of Preventive Medicine at Vanderbilt University and a member of the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), wrote in an recent e-mail.

"We have assured both the profession and the public that the H1N1 vaccine will be evaluated with the same rigor that is applied to seasonal vaccine. We should NOT make vaccine available before the trials are complete and the results carefully assessed."

Others are worried about a repeat of the last swine flu "pandemic," now regarded as a public health and public relations debacle.

"I fear that a rush towards vaccinating the population without completing trials risks leading to the harmful outcome that we witnessed during the 1976 swine flu scare, where the government advocated rapid production and vaccination of the population without adequate safeguards, which led to an unexplained increase in cases of Guillain Barré syndrome (GBS), amongst other complications, and massive liability for the government," wrote Amir Afkhami, MD, PhD, of George Washington University, an international expert on the 1918 Influenza pandemic and an advisor to the U.S. State Department, the U.S. military, and the World Bank on issues pertaining to infectious diseases, public health and, mental health.

"I think in this regard, we must learn from lessons of the past and be mindful of not jumping from the proverbial frying pan into the fire by putting people's health at risk without adequate production and safety monitoring of the vaccines."


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## ModlrMike (29 Aug 2009)

Sensationalist tripe... IMHO.

I would be sceptical of flu information of a chiropractic site. Only in so much as they're not flu specialists.


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## PMedMoe (30 Aug 2009)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Sensationalist tripe... IMHO.
> 
> I would be sceptical of flu information of a chiropractic site. Only in so much as they're not flu specialists.



I agree.  What they heck do they know?


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## medicineman (30 Aug 2009)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Sensationalist tripe... IMHO.
> 
> I would be sceptical of flu information of a chiropractic site. Only in so much as they're not flu specialists.



...and alot are anti-vaccinationists.

MM


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## tomahawk6 (30 Aug 2009)

We generally lose 30,000 annually to the regular flu and its complications. For a real pandemic we need hundreds of thousands to become ill and die. Whats really crazy is the government has rushed this vaccine out without testing it. I sure wouldnt let the school immunize my kid you're asking for trouble. The vaccine IS the swine flu if it doesnt work as advertized alot of people are going to be needlessly exposed.


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## PMedMoe (30 Aug 2009)

It would seem that Herb Newborg, the writer of many of the "news" stories on YourSpine.com is the President of Chiropractic America.  However, this little blurb on him doesn't even mention whether or not he's a doctor.

Funny that the link to visit the doctor's only section gives me an "Untrusted Connection" warning.   :


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## Michael OLeary (30 Aug 2009)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> This means that if the entire U.S. population is vaccinated (a stated goal of the CDC), we are to assume as a fact that 30,000 Americans will suffer debilitating or lethal side effects. Apparently the CDC considers this an acceptable level of collateral damage.
> 
> As unthinkable as this is (destroying or ending the lives of as many as 30,000 Americans), that is only part of the story.



Of course, they could choose to stand back and let every man, woman and child fend for themselves if a full pandemic occurs:

The Influenza Pandemic of 1918



> The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people.
> .....
> 
> It infected 28% of all Americans (Tice). *An estimated 675,000 Americans died of influenza during the pandemic*, ten times as many as in the world war. Of the U.S. soldiers who died in Europe, half of them fell to the influenza virus and not to the enemy (Deseret News). An estimated 43,000 servicemen mobilized for WWI died of influenza (Crosby).


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## Greymatters (31 Aug 2009)

Side effects for only 1 -10 per million?  That's pretty darn good for a vaccine.  

Its surprising how many people seem to think that a 0% reaction to a vaccine is some sort of birthright.  How many people are allergic to penicillin yet we still use it on a regular basis?  I know its a lot more than 1 in a million...


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## aesop081 (31 Aug 2009)

I'm actualy surprised by the panic over swine flu.

Anyone remember when SARS was going to kill us all ?

Anyone remember when Avian flu was going to kill us all ?

How many people die from the "regular" flu ?

Makes the WHO look like "The boy who cried wolf".


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## Greymatters (31 Aug 2009)

Its their moment in the sun - for years they talked how this could happen, now they gotta milk that cash cow for all its worth...


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## Michael OLeary (31 Aug 2009)

It's a rock and a hard place for them.  The hammering they will take if it fizzles is nothing compared to the hammering they would take if they played it down and it ran wild with a relatively high death rate compared to regular flu outbreaks.


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## Another Mom (1 Sep 2009)

Last weekend, one quarter of the Intensive Care beds in Australia were taken by people with H1N1 virus on ventilators. They have run out of beds and they have run out of  nurses. This virus may not directly kill many people, but it may cause people to die because of shortages of  ventilators, hospital beds and staff. On an average day in Canada, the ICUs are full even without new patients with H1N1, who stay in the ICU an average of 3 weeks. The average age for people with H1N1 in the ICU in Australia is 40 years. These are not old people who would have died anyway.

And regarding SARS, it was terrible for the health care workers that were exposed, got sick   and died ( 3 nurses, 1 doctor in Ontario; 8 doctors in Hong Kong)   If the health care workers begin to fall ill, what then?  Some with young families will not go to work.  Some will work exhausted.  There is no slack in our system. That is why the  WHO , the CDC and health care workers  are paying attention to this virus.


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## RubberTree (1 Sep 2009)

That's a lot of facts without backup. Do you have any sources for your info Another Mom?


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## Sonnyjim (1 Sep 2009)

I understand that this could be something serious(or overexaggerated), however if the side effects of 1 in 100,000 people are so called 'serious'...... I wouldn't be going to get my vaccination any time soon.


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## PMedMoe (1 Sep 2009)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> That's a lot of facts without backup. Do you have any sources for your info Another Mom?



Here's one:  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=abkCvOmpfXTM


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

This whole swine flue business is really fishy.  Seasonal flue kills MANY more per year, yet it's not considered a "pandemic".  

Baxter, a pharmaceutical company involved in numerous scandals, has received the US contract to manufacture the vaccine.

The virus has been elevated to a Level 5 Pandemic...

It simply looks like a method to line some peoples pockets if you ask me.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> This whole swine flue business is really fishy.  Seasonal flue kills MANY more per year, yet it's not considered a "pandemic".
> 
> Baxter, a pharmaceutical company involved in numerous scandals, has received the US contract to manufacture the vaccine.
> 
> ...



It's easy to break out the tin foil hats and cry "Conspiracy" when you and no-one close to you has been sick yet.  These viruses are not like the regular flu you may have had, they will put pressure on an already strained medical system even if only a fraction of the afflicted need only a brief emergency room visit or one night for isolation, diagnosis and to start rehydration (which is what I needed this summer followed by nearly a month of sick leave after contracting a type "A" virus). Add to that pressure the numbers who contract a regular case of the flue (themselves, or their children, or aging parents) who demand to be seen by a physician because the early stages look and feel the same and they will want a confirmed diagnosis.

And those who cry "Conspiracy" now will also be the first to scream "Neglect" if nothing is done and someone in their own family gets seriously sick or dies.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

I don't believe it's a conspiracy.  Baxter is making millions off of this vaccine, and the media is spinning it as if it was going to kill us all.  This is all fact, not a conspiracy.

So far the only ones to die were those who already had a weakened immune system from underlying medical/health issues, the elderly, and in some cases children, just like how the seasonal flu kills.

It is no more contagious than the regular flu, and no more deadly.

The only thing I do not know, or can't explain, is why Baxter, a company that has made some serious blunders in the past, has once again got the contract to manufacture the vaccine, when there were other (more competent) pharmaceutical companies willing to take on the task.  

I'm not even going to try to speculate at the risk of actually sounding like a conspiracy theorist.


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## mariomike (1 Sep 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It's easy to break out the tin foil hats and cry "Conspiracy" when you and no-one close to you has been sick yet.



It's not easy for our generation(s) to relate to. We are taller, stronger, healthier and live longer. Most have never seen a quarantine sign in their neighbor's door. Diptheria, Scarlet Fever, Whooping Cough. Classmates crippled with polio. Mastoid scars. Mostly forgotten.


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## PMedMoe (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> So far the only ones to die were those who already had a weakened immune system from underlying medical/health issues, the elderly, and in some cases children, just like how the seasonal flu kills.
> 
> It is no more contagious than the regular flu, and no more deadly.



So now you're an epidemiologist??  I think the concern regarding H1N1 is the _potential_ for it to become fatal, as in the 1918 epidemic.



			
				Xiang said:
			
		

> The only thing I do not know, or can't explain, is why Baxter, a company that has made some serious blunders in the past, has once again got the contract to manufacture the vaccine, when there were other (more competent) pharmaceutical companies willing to take on the task.



Baxter is not the _only_ company to produce the vaccine.  Others inlcude Sinovac, Adimmune, Sanofi-Aventis and GlaxoSmithKline.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

> So now you're an epidemiologist??  I think the concern regarding H1N1 is the potential for it to become fatal, as in the 1918 epidemic



I am not an epidemiologist, but I certainly watch the news and have followed this somewhat closely.  Medical officials have clearly stated that this disease is no more contagious than seasonal flu, and those who get it (who do not have any underlying medical/immunity issues) have a near equal chance to survive as those who contact seasonal flu.  I think you may have been taken in by the hype.

As for the companies, I was referring more to US companies, not foreign ones.  Baxter seems to always be the one the US government runs to, even after their numerous scandals.


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## Greymatters (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> The virus has been elevated to a Level 5 Pandemic...



Its not conspiracy, just the way that pandemic cases are defined and categorized.  Most of the time the category is based on CFR (casualty versus fatality ratio) instead of more practical quantitative information like number of persons affected and areas affected...


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> I am not an epidemiologist, but I certainly watch the news



Well that explains it!    I am more concerned with the news reporting accurately on this, not reporting anything/everything to keep a story going.  With conflicting reports and opinions, all of them "on the news", how does someone know what is/is not the facts/truth?  

Personally, I am paying attention to the emails that are coming from CF Health Services personnel via my CoC, and have put the stuff on the news into the "other/useless" file.

IMO, *the news* has gone to far from "reporting accurate information" to "reporting consistent confusion and contradictions" and I don't find them a source of information that is reliable.


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## Another Mom (1 Sep 2009)

I am curious about any new initiatives to limit H1N1 in the Forces. Where I work, they have installed alcohol dispensers and disposable face masks for people to use, but we see a lot of the public. Is there a higher rate of cold/flu in the close quarters of the Forces? Are people being asked to wash their hands more frequently or for longer periods (20-30 seconds), for example?   Just curious.


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## PMedMoe (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> Baxter seems to always be the one the US government runs to, even after their numerous scandals.



Care to start posting sources/links instead of vague allegations?



			
				Xiang said:
			
		

> I think you may have been taken in by the hype.



I think not.

When it comes to hindsight, it's sad to consider how many people have died due to complacency.


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> When it comes to hindsight, it's sad to consider how many people have died due to complacency.



That is true. That being said, there is a fine line between justified precautions and pressing the panic button every single time. As i said before, the WHO cried wolf for SARS and Avian flu and is doing the same for H1N1. last i saw H1N1 on the news there was indications that in some areas, it had become resistant to that tamiflu drug. If this is indeed something worthy of the term "pandemic", do you think we blew our wad a bit early ?

What is the danger of yelling "panic" every time ?

People will stop listening.


Now, for you conspiracy theorists out there, consider this :

In the early stages of the swine flu hysteria, helth Canada officials were on CBC newsworld, telling people that the current flu vaccine was ineffective for H1N1 but that they should get it anyways.

So whats in the flu vaccine that the Government wants you to take in ?


I'm not a conspiracy nut but that should get a few people going.... >


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## Edward Campbell (1 Sep 2009)

The WHO has an establised, internationally approved definition of _pandemic_ and that definitions has various _levels_ that should guide countries re: precautions. The Director General would be irresponsible, maybe even negligant if she did not "declare" a _pandemic_ when the defined standards were met.

My physician tells me that H1N1 and season flu are, most likely, going to so different as to require two different sets of vaccine. (Parenthetically, my physician thinks that, because of my age/general health, the seasonal flu shot is more important for me in the event that my winter travels get in the way of a timely H1N1 shot.)

I don't think anyone except the ill-informed and easily miled are "panicing."


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## Another Mom (1 Sep 2009)

I  think it is supremely ironic that when the medical system jumps into high gear to deal with an unknown and serious entity (SARS),  and if  they are successful at containing it,  people  then think it was "crying wolf".   A lot of work went into containing SARS, including building special, negative pressure isolation rooms in hospitals, triple gowning, medical people quarantining themselves away from family, etc. What happened in China, with 8 doctors dead, was lessened in Toronto, ( 3 medical personnel dead) and  lessened again across Canada exactly because of all the action behind the scenes.   But unfortunately, the Canadian public just  sees the outcome and thinks SARS was not too bad.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

> Care to start posting sources/links instead of vague allegations?



They're not vague at all.  Anyone who knows anything about Baxter knows they have their nose so far up the US Governments butt that it doesn't matter how careless they have been in the past, the government runs to them first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_heparin_contamination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#2009_avian_flu_contamination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#Dialyzer_crisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products


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## blacktriangle (1 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So whats in the flu vaccine that the Government wants you to take in ?
> 
> 
> I'm not a conspiracy nut but that should get a few people going.... >




It's probably a weight loss supplement for the masses.

But hey, if it turns everyone into zombies "I Am Legend" style...at least you have a plane to escape in...


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2009)

Another Mom said:
			
		

> I  think it is supremely ironic that when the medical system jumps into high gear



The medical system is not capable of jumping to high gear without the WHO and every other health department big head being on TV telling people about the end of the world ? School here hasnt even started and joe six pack is starting to demand that schools be closed for the year because of H1N1. Edward, they might be ill-informed but they are in large numbers and all they see on TV is "panic". All that the medical system has given them as far as the public sees, is reason to.

I fly around alot and remember the SAR days very well. I remember the hysteria people were in. Our medical system did a great job in dealing with the situation but i'm quite confident it would have done the same great job without the WHO and other health organization feeding public hysteria.


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## PMedMoe (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_heparin_contamination



Though Baxter was first to recall heparin because of increased adverse reactions, after the contaminant was identified and testing protocols were shared with other manufacturers globally, over a dozen other companies in nearly a dozen countries issued recalls, which *linked back to certain supply points in China*.



			
				Xiang said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#2009_avian_flu_contamination



Though there was a risk of serious consequences, Baxter claimed the controls over the distribution of the virus were stringent and there was little chance of the virus harming humans.



			
				Xiang said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#Dialyzer_crisis



though the cause was unclear, the company issued a world-wide recall of two lines of filters, the sole common link between all the equipment used by the patients. Harry Kraemer, the company president at the time, apologized for the errors, shut down the factory producing filters, alerted competitors of the issue and took a 40% pay cut along with a 20% cut for other executives.  The company's earnings dropped by $189 million as a result of the issues. The company took quick action to reduce the impact of the event and prevent future recurrence and as a result suffered minimal damage to its reputation.



			
				Xiang said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products



That one I'll give you.

My source is the same as yours.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

If you're content with their life threatening, and in some cases, deadly blunders, that's fine.  But don't call them vague for the sake of a debate.


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## Another Mom (1 Sep 2009)

I would be sceptical about how the media reported any sound bites coming out of the CDC or WHO.   The media thrive on building hype. I know for a fact the media  edited and sensationalized  information that a person I know, gave them. It was very frustrating.  The CDC did not predict "the end of the world" and I would challenge you to back up this own bit of hyperbole. 

And actually, there are meetings taking place, as we speak, discussing possible containment  H1N1 strategies, including school closures.  There are also earthquake and fire drills, which the fringe complain frighten the children.   Disaster planning takes place all the time and is not driven by the response of Joe Sixpack, who most of the time, ignores it.   H1N1 is the crisis du jour for the media.  Plan for the worst, hope for the best.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

I agree.  Media sensationalism is why I am taking this "pandemic" one day at a time.  I'm not breaking out the gas mask and MOP4 just yet..


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## Journeyman (1 Sep 2009)

Dammit Moe, stop stealing my thunder   

OK, based solely upon _your_ sources (you have greater faith in Wikipedia than I, notwithstanding the changes happening to your source articles even today -- not involved in that, are you?)......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_heparin_contamination


> The heparin was processed in China from pig's intestines by the American pharmaceutical firm *Scientific Protein Laboratories*. The company harvests heparin from pig's intestines in Changzhou City, China and supplies the crude heparin to Baxter Travenol.


 Looks like SPL is the culprit, not Baxter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#2009_avian_flu_contamination


> In early 2009 supplies of unintentionally contaminated vaccine material with Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 *provided by Baxter International were sent to a series of European laboratories*[18][19]. The deadly H5N1 strain was mixed with the less harmful H3N2 subtype of the seasonal flu virus, and was detected after it killed test animals in a lab in the Czech Republic. Though there was a risk of serious consequences,[20] Baxter claimed the *controls over the distribution of the virus were stringent and there was little chance of the virus harming humans*.[21]


Yep, guilty....but hardly worthy of "the sky is falling" efforts in this thread.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_International#Dialyzer_crisis


> On August 15, 2001, two elderly patients in Spain died within hours of receiving dialysis from Baxter products. Eventually 51 more patients would die; *though the cause was unclear, the company issued a world-wide recall of two lines of filters*, the sole common link between all the equipment used by the patients. Harry Kraemer, the company president at the time, apologized for the errors, shut down the factory producing filters, alerted competitors of the issue and took a 40% pay cut along with a 20% cut for other executives.[13] The company's earnings dropped by $189 million as a result of the issues. *The company took quick action * to reduce the impact of the event and prevent future recurrence and as a result *suffered minimal damage to its reputation  [...except in the mind of one army.ca poster, apparently]*




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products


> Contaminated haemophilia blood products were a serious public heath problem in the late 1970s and early 1980s. These products caused large numbers of hemophiliacs to became infected with HIV and hepatitis C. Companies involved included * (1) Armour Pharmaceutical Company, (2) Bayer Corporation and its (3)  Cutter Biological division, (4)  Baxter International and its (5) Hyland Pharmaceutical division and (6)  Alpha Therapeutic Corporation*.


 By my count, Baxter is merely one of six companies or subsidiaries involved. 


*The evidence you've provided does not support your premise that Baxter is some singular, evil empire which owns the US.  * 




			
				Xiang said:
			
		

> Media sensationalism is why I am taking this "pandemic" one day at a time.  I'm not breaking out the gas mask and MOP4 just yet..


Ah, seen. Cherry-picking Wiki to justify your dorm-room rant against Baxter is laudable, but _the media_ lacks crediblity here? Got it.

Say, you don't own stock in a Baxter rival, do you?




oh, and it's MOPP (Mission Oriented Protective Posture) by the way....


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## Another Mom (1 Sep 2009)

You don't need a gas mask.You do need to wash your hands thoroughly  (20-30 sec) and often, cough or sneeze into your sleeve instead of your hand, refrain from touching your nose, mouth and eyes and stay away from sick people. Again, more, logical action is better than ignoring everything because of the media hype, which sometimes does have the benefit of getting people's attention.


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## mariomike (1 Sep 2009)

"1976 swine flu story swung from fear to farce":
http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/627097


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2009)

Another Mom said:
			
		

> The CDC did not predict "the end of the world" and I would challenge you to back up this own bit of hyperbole.



You know damn well that i am not quoting anyone but, IMHO, that is the message that is making it to the masses, like it or not. 



> And actually, there are meetings taking place, as we speak, discussing possible containment  H1N1 strategies, including school closures.



Of course there is meetings and planning going on. It would be irresposible not to plan. Thats not what i was getting at. My point is that it is possible to prepare for emergencies without feeding public hysteria. The panic in my area is fed by nothing more than ignorance. People here have already demanded that schools be closed this year despite the fact that there has not been a single reported case of H1N1.

Health authorities need to manage information and the media better.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

> The evidence you've provided does not support your premise that Baxter is some singular, evil empire which owns the US.



The evidence I provided was never intended to paint Baxter as some singular, evil empire that owns the US.  I provided information on scandals Baxter has been involved in in the past, as requested.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

> The CDC did not predict "the end of the world" and I would challenge you to back up this own bit of hyperbole.



If a comment was meant to be backed up, it wouldn't be hyperbole now would it?

Just saying


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## PMedMoe (1 Sep 2009)

Xiang said:
			
		

> But don't call them vague for the sake of a debate.



I called _your repeated posts_ about them vague because you did not quote any sources or info.  Debate?  No thanks, I have better things to do.

For other info regarding the flu (any flu) it is NOT contact borne, it is droplet borne.  Someone coughs or sneezes into your face and you inhale the droplets.

As far as washing your hands often and not touching your eyes, nose or mouth, that's very sound health advice.  It will help to prevent the spread of other illnesses.


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2009)

Another Mom said:
			
		

> You do need to wash your hands thoroughly  (20-30 sec) and often, cough or sneeze into your sleeve instead of your hand, refrain from touching your nose, mouth and eyes and stay away from sick people.



Thats great. Then why not just stick to that ?

Unless you live under a rock, the message getting out is far from that.

The MIR here all but hung a sign at the door that said "if you are sick, go away"



			
				Another Mom said:
			
		

> better than ignoring everything because of the media hype, which sometimes does have the benefit of getting people's attention.



Yup, the media puts its own spin on it, but is the WHO unaware of that ? Maybe the organization should spend some time informing rather than feeding the panic machine. Have you watched a WHO press conference lately ?


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## Edward Campbell (1 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You know damn well that i am not quoting anyone but, IMHO, that is the message that is making it to the masses, like it or not.
> 
> Of course there is meetings and planning going on. It would be irresposible not to plan. Thats not what i was getting at. My point is that it is possible to prepare for emergencies without feeding public hysteria. The panic in my area is fed by nothing more than ignorance. People here have already demanded that schools be closed this year despite the fact that there has not been a single reported case of H1N1.
> 
> Health authorities need to manage information and the media better.




But, I think you have the _cart before the horse_, in a way,  CDN Aviator.

I agree that the media is a major part of the "problem" you have outlined but I think the messenger, not the message, _per se_, is the problem. The 24/7 news machine needs to be fed - preferably with things that titillate or excite or, at worst, frighten viewers/listeners/readers. They, the media, misrepresent and distort, by selective editing, the message from the WHO, Health Canada and local public health authorities.

I don't think the health professions can, ethically, fail to advise, inform and warn. But their advice, information and warnings are being distorted, by the media, in order to sell soap.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ... Have you watched a WHO press conference lately ?




Yes, a few weeks ago. Dr. Chan was, _comme d'habitude_, clear and deadly dull - the _commentary_ and the networks' "doctors for hire" who followed, however, were quite something else.


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> but I think the messenger, not the message, _per se_, is the problem.



I would say that both are the problem. I do not beleive for a single second that organizations like HC and WHO are clueless as to how this all plays out in the media. To me, this a huge failiure of information management on the part of health authorities and sensationalism by the media. Knowing that the message gets twisted, why is the message not being re-shaped ?



> I don't think the health professions can, ethically, fail to advise, inform and warn.



Agreed, but a much better job has to be done WRT public information.

At a local coffee shop the other day i overheard a conversation by some folks who we saying that once H1N1 gets into town, it will be a mess just like in those nothern communities. Everyone around was in enthusiastic agreement......WTF ??

People are stupid, the media spins the story and what does HC do......"go get the ineffective flu shot...."

Big "F" for the PR department.


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## Xiang (1 Sep 2009)

There are a lot of sides at fault here.  The media, the White House, the WHO and the CDC... They can't seem to get their stories straight.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/08/27/2009-08-27_head_of_the_cdc_dr_thomas_frieden_disputes_white_house_swine_flu_report.html


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## Another Mom (1 Sep 2009)

I think  part of the problem is that most people think of only two options  1. Freak out or 2. Do nothing. The reality requires more thought and boring change of daily habits.


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## muskrat89 (1 Sep 2009)

I work for a post-secondary education institution and am one of the ones on this campus involved in pandemic planning. I receive new information almost every day.

I can tell you that (in the US at least) local, county and state officials are trying to balance the message; it is the media that spins it up or down. This is not black and white - medical professionals can't even declare with certainty how bad or not bad this will be. They are trying to inform people with a happy medium.

I think however, that I should direct them to this very message board, where the real experts are proclaiming the truth.


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2009)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> I think however, that I should direct them to this very message board, where the real experts are proclaiming the truth.



I am no expert but i tell you what the view is from where is it, as an obvious knuck-draging, one eyebrow hick. Your sarcasm aside, this :



			
				muskrat89 said:
			
		

> medical professionals can't even declare with certainty how bad or not bad this will be.



...is akin to global warming as a calamity.......its all maybe, maybe not. Nobody knows.


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## Edward Campbell (1 Sep 2009)

I was just listening to the news on the radio. They were doing a story about _parents_ who want schools closed. They quote Dr. David Butler-Jones, the national public heath authority, who explains, clearly and calmly why that is not necessary and not a good idea. He does his job, well: clear, concise, calm information. Then the "journalist" finishes the story with a comment to the effect of "that's all well and good, unless something really bad happens."

I disagree with CDN Aviator on the *source* of the misinformation and panic - which, I agree with him is out there. It's not Chan at WHO, Geneva, it's not Butler-Jones in Ottawa. It's rumour mongers and fear mongers - none of them having any idea about flu or pandemics or public health or shoe lacing.


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## Rifleman62 (1 Sep 2009)

And I still say the Prince and his party will use the H1N1 as an election issue. The LPC fit into the "rumour mongers and fear mongers" category. They will be aided and abetted by the Cdn media. And I think the LPC has already planted the seed on this issue recently in the parliamentary committee hearings. A trial balloon


http://www.liberal.ca/en/newsroom/media-releases/16182_canadas-doctors-echo-h1n1-concerns

Canada’s doctors echo H1N1 concerns
Published on 18 August 2009

Given the Conservative government’s poor track record in managing health crises, Liberal MPs continue to express their concerns that Canada isn’t prepared for a second wave of H1N1 flu.

“We learned the hard way when listeriosis claimed twenty-two lives last year,” said Liberal Health Critic *Dr.* _Carolyn Bennett_. “Now we’re seeing no federal action to help cancer patients cope with thousands of delayed tests arising from the medical isotope shortage. How can we feel confident in this government’s ability to protect Canadians from H1N1?”

Concerns over Canada’s lack of readiness has reached the point where the Canadian Medical Association’s Journal is calling for the federal Conservatives to step aside from this issue entirely, by recommending that an independent “health czar” take over the federal response to H1N1.

“There can be no more damning indictment of the Conservative government’s handling of this issue,” said Quebec Liberal MP Dr. Bernard Patry. “Liberals have long called for an independent chief public health officer who reports to Parliament, not a government of a particular partisan stripe.”

Conservative Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq provided only vague assurances to the Canadian Medical Association on H1N1 preparedness yesterday, and refused to provide details on the safety or distribution of anti-viral drugs to Canadians. Having still provided no clear response to the Premiers’ call for immediate and meaningful cooperation on tackling the pandemic, Dr. Bennett expressed concern that the Minister of Health is dodging full accountability on the issue of H1N1 preparedness.

“Canadians need answers – which is why we appreciate Minister Aglukkaq’s willingness to make herself available to the Health Committee again,” said Dr. Bennett. “We hope she can stay for all of the meeting this time so that the elected members can get answers and give Canadians more confidence that we’re ready for H1N1.”


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## muskrat89 (1 Sep 2009)

> I am no expert but i tell you what the view is from where is it, as an obvious knuck-draging, one eyebrow hick. Your sarcasm aside, this :



I wasn't directing my comments at you specifically. That being said, your comments do seem to be pretty much "matter of fact". I wonder how you would react to a message board of doctors pontificating about how simple it should be to navigate a plane?

I agree that to the guy on the street (including me) there is a lot of Henny Penny stuff - I don't believe it is because the medical field is trying to deliberately be alarmist, or not managing their information well enough.


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## PMedMoe (1 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The MIR here all but hung a sign at the door that said "if you are sick, go away"



The medical sections are supposed to advise people what to do if they are sick.  People can call in and be triaged over the phone.  If there is a need for them to come in, they will be told exactly what to do.  Before we moved to our new building, a Med Tech or Nurse would meet the patient at the door and escort them into a room so that they could avoid the possibility of other sick people being exposed to the virus.  If there is no need for them to come in, they are being advised to self-isolate for seven days.  After all, what's the point of passing the virus to other people?  If you _are_ sick, you _should_ stay at home.


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## CANADIAN F0RCES (2 Sep 2009)

Hey sorry I've finally returned from a little "vaca", and so I want to share another little viewpoint. When they say H1N1 could be similar to the virus of 1918 and such, is it not fair to argue that the conditions in which the virus had/has to spread is drastically different?


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## mariomike (2 Sep 2009)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> When they say H1N1 could be similar to the virus of 1918 and such, is it not fair to argue that the conditions in which the virus had/has to spread is drastically different?



I have read that the U.S. Army decided to "send men on troop ships to France, in spite of the fact that half or more of them would come down with the flu during the voyage, because to stop the troop ship-outs would encourage the enemy, Germany. And that the military also continued transferring men in and out of domestic encampments, although they knew that doing so would spread a killer disease. And the fact that newspapers and other media kept up happy talk and down-played the epidemic as it was happening, offering such useless advice as "keep your feet dry" while thousands of people died."
Yet, today, with modern transportation, I think disease can spread rapidly also.


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## Greymatters (3 Sep 2009)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> Hey sorry I've finally returned from a little "vaca", and so I want to share another little viewpoint. When they say H1N1 could be similar to the virus of 1918 and such, is it not fair to argue that the conditions in which the virus had/has to spread is drastically different?



To this day we as a population still use many forms of transport that bring us into close contact with others on a regular basis, such as buses, airplanes, ships, elevators, etc.  We congregate at fast-food restaurants and shop at closed-in malls.  Significant numbers of the population still live in close quarters, we still use hotels, people still live in ghettoes, many cities are larger than what they were in 1918.  Medicine as a whole and individual awareness of diseases is better (at least in Western countries), but there really hasnt been any change in the way we associate with each other, so the risk of diseases being passed on at a high rate is just as much of a concern as it was in 1918...


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2009)

Although i have no great wish to get "swine flu" ( or anything else for that matter), this just about sums it up nicely 

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=swine_flu


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## Michael OLeary (6 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Although i have no great wish to get "swine flu" ( or anything else for that matter), this just about sums it up nicely
> 
> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=swine_flu



One more idiot who shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.  Yup, the symptoms are similar, the intensity and duration of effect, however, are radically different.  And why not offer to fly to someone with a confirmed case et them "sneeze in your face", by the time the test is completed the person is no longer contagious.    :


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> One more idiot who shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.



No less different than the idiots we frequently allow to post here. No less different than anyone on the internet that advocates a less than reasoned approach to "swine flu" ( a.k.a. Panic).


----------



## mariomike (6 Sep 2009)

I'm not an expert, but the article mentioned SARS: "Remember SARS? More bullshit." Maybe it was, I don't know. But, I do know that SARS put the fear of God into me. I was one of the 600 ( out of 850 ) Toronto Paramedics who were quarantined. I don't know anyone who died of it, but I do know the five who were infected. Not one them ever returned to Operations. I knew them when they were strong and healthy. I never saw them that way again.


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2009)

AIDS is an epidemic is it not ?

It i generaly deadly and it is contagious. Yet we go on with life taking sensible precautions and we dont cause mass histeria. We dont close a school, because a student has AIDS do we ?

How did you as a paramedic manage to continue working when at any time, one of your cases could be an AIDS positive person ?

It is not SARS that put the fear of god into you, its all the fear-mongering and misinformation that did.


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## mariomike (6 Sep 2009)

That's a good point. After we began wearing N95 respirators, gowns, gloves, and goggles no paramedics became ill with SARS. I did notice that the public started to avoid us. I hated quarantine. Worse than the fear itself was the stigma.


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## the 48th regulator (6 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> AIDS is an epidemic is it not ?
> 
> It i generaly deadly and it is contagious. Yet we go on with life taking sensible precautions and we dont cause mass histeria. We dont close a school, because a student has AIDS do we ?
> 
> ...



I can't believe you made this statement.

the fear is not of the the Disease itself, but how the disease is transmitted.

AIDS, before it was realized, that it was a very unstable virus outside of the body, and non transmittable, via airborne or service contact, was treated just like the swine flu or SARS.

SARS is a main example, how a disease can quickly cripple a nation.

Within weeks it arrived in Toronto, injured and killed people.  It also destroyed life, as this was the final nail in the film/tourism/production etc etc industry for Canada.

The fear is not the Disease itself, but how quickly it can travel.  The Spanish flu, a close relative of the Swine flu, killed 50 million people worldwide.  This was an era of slow travel.  The fear now is the ease of how it can spread globally.

Sorry, your debunking of the "Fear Mongering" of the establishment is weak.  Your suggestion that we live a blasé life, is more of a danger than the actual contagion, in itself.

dileas

tess


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## mariomike (7 Sep 2009)

Do you remember when Mayor Lastman went on CNN? 
When he was asked what the World Health Organization was doing about the SARS crisis, Lastman replied "They don't know what they're talking about. I don't know who this group is. I've never heard of them before."   ;D

Jon Stewart lapooned the mayor in SARS Attacks!:
http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/best-of/the-daily-show-goes-canadian/#clip86141


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## aesop081 (7 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> This was an era of slow travel.



Want to compare the state of public health between now and then too ? How about the state of medical research and the ability to produce solutions ? 

You cant compare the spread of 2 related diseases in a vacuum. You cant have it both ways.



> Within weeks it arrived in Toronto



Oh yes, i forgot, if it happens in TO, that makes it a global calamity.  ;D

I traveled through Toronto 3 times during the SARS crisis.......guess what.....i didnt get SARS.




> Your suggestion that we live a blasé life



That is never what i said and you would know that if you took the time to read rather than scream just because i'm not ready to run around with my head cut off. It is contagious disease but basic prevention, that everyone should follow anyways, would do a better job than doom-and-glood public press conferences by organizations eager to show that what they have warned us about has finaly come true.

Wash you hands, cough into your sleave, stay home if you are sick........sounds like sound advice for just about every day.......Guess we should panic now eh ?

 :

Anyways, you guys go ahead and panic. I'm just going to keep following basic public health practices and remain calm.

Continue the panic and this thread without me.


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## Retired AF Guy (7 Sep 2009)

A couple of quick comments about Swine Flu and SARS, First SARS: the reason that SARS was such a problem was because the health care people screwed-up. They allowed infected people to lay around in the hospital corridors infecting people. Then they allowed infected people to go home where they passed the SARS infection to other people.  Mark Steyn has a good write-up about the SARS epidemic in Toronto and how it was spread and how the health care people blew-it and can be found here. 

Earlier someone (Tomahawk I think) mentioned about that about 30,000 people die in [in the U.S] from the normal flu variant. Various commentators here in Canada have put the figure at 4,000+ deaths which is an exaggeration. The actual deaths from influenza is actually quite lower.  The reason for the 4,000+ figure is that STATSCAN lists the total deaths from flu and pneumonia deaths together, before breaking the deaths down. For instance, in 2003 4,957 people died from influenza/pneumonia, of which only 460 deaths are actually from influenza (in its various forms including combination of flu/pneumonia). 

- In 2002 a total of 4,725 people died from flu/pneumonia, of which 452 deaths were actually from influenza;
- 2001 4,776 deaths flu/pneumonia of which only 184 people died from flu; and
- 2000 there were a total of 4,996 from flu/pneumonia and whom 1,124 died from influenza.

As you can see from above there can be quite a difference from one year to the next. But, contrary from what various commentators have been saying the total yearly deaths from influenza is actually quite low when compared to total deaths. For example, in 2003 over 18,000 people died from various respiratory diseases.


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## Michael OLeary (7 Sep 2009)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> But, contrary from what various commentators have been saying the total yearly deaths from influenza is actually quite low when compared to total deaths. For example, in 2003 over 18,000 people died from various respiratory diseases.



What is not quantified is the number who were infected with any strain of flu and the hit their immune system took resulted in a death by another disease that may otherwise have been beaten.  Stats are only as good at the level of detail provided with them.

While I neither support the "EVERYBODY PANIC" or the "just ignore the hysteria" camps, there is cause for concern if this does break out in any serious numbers, even if just for the extra pressure on the medicals system to see/treat those who get it.  I've had the misfortune to spend a month on sick leave this summer as a result of a type "A" flu virus.  I can tell you from personal experience that anyone who wants to compare the effects to the regular flu is RTFO.


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## mariomike (7 Sep 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I've had the misfortune to spend a month on sick leave this summer as a result of a type "A" flu virus.  I can tell you from personal experience that anyone who wants to compare the effects to the regular flu is RTFO.



I hope you are feeling better, Mike.
What does RTFO mean? I had to look it up:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rtfo


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## muskrat89 (7 Sep 2009)

> Anyways, you guys go ahead and panic.



Who's panicking? Just because we're interested in discussing it, and we're not inviting infected people to "sneeze in our face" doesn't mean we're in a state of panic.

Just because the press is selling it, doesn't mean we're buying it...


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## Greymatters (8 Sep 2009)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> Just because the press is selling it, doesn't mean we're buying it...



But we're certainly monitoring it... the debates being printed/posted are very similiar to past ones regarding earthquake preparedness and response to terrorist events...


----------



## muskrat89 (8 Sep 2009)

Seasonal Flu versus Pandemic Flu Comparison

http://www.pandemicflu.gov/season_or_pandemic.html

Of course - consider the source


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## kratz (15 Sep 2009)

I caught this new item in the Winnipeg Free Press  yesterday and was not sure which thread to post it in. I think it is wise to ask questions without raising alarm over the topic of H1N1. In this case, the MP does have a valid concern in my opinion.



> H1N1 fears should halt election: MP
> By: Mia Rabson
> 15/09/2009 1:00 AM
> 
> ...




more at link


----------



## CANADIAN F0RCES (16 Sep 2009)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_he_me/us_med_swine_flu



WASHINGTON – The Food and Drug Administration approved the new swine flu vaccine Tuesday, a long-anticipated step as the government works to start mass vaccinations next month. Limited supplies should start trickling out the first week of October — about a week earlier than expected, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told Congress. Then about 45 million doses should arrive around Oct. 15, followed by more shipments each week.

She said they'll be available at up to 90,000 sites, including schools and clinics, across the U.S. that state health departments have chosen as best at getting the shots out fast.

Eventually, "we will have enough vaccine available for everyone," Sebelius said. Everyone who wants it, that is.

The government has ordered 195 million doses but may order more if there's enough demand, she said. Typically fewer than 100 million Americans seek flu vaccine every year, and it's unclear whether swine flu — what scientists prefer to call the 2009 H1N1 strain — will prompt much more demand. A recent Associated Press-GfK poll found 57 percent of people said they were likely to get it.

This year is unusual: Many people will have to line up twice for flu vaccine, once to be inoculated against regular winter flu and a second time for an H1N1 vaccination.

The new swine flu seems no more deadly than regular winter flu, which every year kills 36,000 Americans and hospitalizes 200,000. But there's an important difference: This H1N1 strain sickens younger people more frequently than the people over 65 who are the main victims of seasonal flu.

So the government wants certain people in line first for the H1N1 vaccinations: Pregnant women; the young, from age 6 months up through age 24; and people younger than 65 who have flu-risky conditions such as asthma, diabetes or heart disease; caregivers of the at-risk, including newborns; and health workers.

The vast majority of people who get swine flu "so far are not terribly ill," Sebelius noted, saying most will recover fine at home with some rest and fluids. And they shouldn't race to doctors' offices seeking tests to find out what kind of flu they have — H1N1 or the regular strains that circulate every winter — because treatment is the same.

"The flu is the flu is the flu right now," Sebelius said.

Nor should doctors hand out prescriptions for anti-flu medicines to be used to prevent flu, she added, because "it could make them sicker in the long run."

The drugs Tamiflu and Relenza should be used for treatment only, she stressed.

Sebelius announced the FDA's approval of vaccine made by four of the expected five manufacturers: CSL Ltd. of Australia, Switzerland's Novartis Vaccines, Sanofi Pasteur of France — which produces flu shots at its Swiftwater, Pa., factory — and Maryland-based MedImmune LLC, which makes the only nasal-spray flu vaccine.

London-based GlaxoSmithKline also was expected to supply vaccine. Sebelius said only that a fifth manufacturer's vaccine was expected to be approved soon, pending some final steps.

Getting licensing from the FDA means that the vaccine is made properly and meets specific manufacturing and quality standards.

What's the right dose? Figuring that out is the job of the National Institutes of Health, which last week announced studies showing that one dose appears to protect adults — and that protection kicks in just eight to 10 days after the shot, faster than scientists had predicted.

Studies in children and pregnant women are continuing to settle on the right dose for those populations.

The H1N1 vaccine seems just as safe as the long-used regular flu vaccine, the FDA said, not a surprise as it's made the same way. Side effects include soreness or redness at the injection site, and some fever.

The government will keep a sharp eye for any very rare side effects. The last mass vaccination against a different swine flu, in 1976, was marred by reports of the paralyzing Guillain-Barre syndrome; scientists never proved whether that link was real or coincidence.


----------



## CANADIAN F0RCES (16 Sep 2009)

I saw this this morning on CNN. First thing I see wants to put me back to bed. haha!
 I tried to link it from the FDA site but its "too busy" so I felt yahoo would do to source for now.


----------



## Michael OLeary (4 Oct 2009)

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/01/flu-hand-wash.html



> *Report questions value of handwashing to fight flu*
> Last Updated: Thursday, October 1, 2009 | 4:59 PM ET Comments97Recommend40
> CBC News
> 
> ...


----------



## Another Mom (5 Oct 2009)

US Army reports first death of  soldier to H1N1

http://blog.taragana.com/n/army-reports-first-death-from-swine-flu-complications-soldier-fell-ill-in-sc-basic-training-184261/

 Quote:
Army’s first swine flu death is soldier in SC

COLUMBIA, S.C. — A 23-year-old soldier from Florida who was in basic training is the Army’s first death from complications of swine flu, officials said Thursday.

The death at Fort Jackson, the Army’s largest training camp and just outside Columbia, may be the first such loss among the nation’s 1.4 million men and women in uniform.

Pentagon officials said they were trying Thursday morning to confirm details of the case. But as of late last week, Department of Defense spokesmen said no military deaths had been recorded since the virus broke out last spring.

Spc. Christopher Hogg of Deltona, Fla., died Sept. 10th from “pneumonia due to H1N1 influenza,” according to Fort Jackson commander Brig. Gen. Bradley May.

“His family had traveled to Columbia to be with him and was present when he passed away,” May said in a statement Thursday.

An autopsy was conducted the following day and results received late Wednesday, May said.

Hogg was in the fifth week of basic. He had initially tested negative for the swine flu virus, but the autopsy later detected it, another defense official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

“Regrettably, this is the first H1N1-related death of a soldier for the U.S. Army,” said Gary Tallman, a civilian spokesman for the service, the Pentagon’s largest service branch with 552,425 soldiers.

Hogg reported to sick call with a fever on Sept. 1 and was treated at the Army’s Moncrief Army Community Hospital. Two days later he was transferred to a local hospital, where he died, May said.

Fort Jackson spokeswoman Karen Soule said that as of Wednesday evening, 51 of Fort Jackson’s 13,000 soldiers had flulike symptoms. More than 50,000 soldiers every year participate in either basic or advanced training on the installation.

Military recruits are always at higher risk for illness because of the stressful training environment, close quarters and rigorous physical work, military medical officials have said.

The Army has long had programs for preventing and treating illnesses. It stepped up efforts when swine flu surfaced in the spring, May said.

That includes mandatory vaccinations, frequent hand washing and use of hand sanitizer, coughing into the crook of the arm instead of the hands, and keeping hands away from the eyes, nose and mouth, the one-star general said.

Among many other steps, barracks have been rearranged so bunks are placed head-to-toe to keep soldiers as separate as possible. Living quarters are scrubbed daily with bleach, and soldiers turn in blankets, pillows and mattress covers for laundering every three weeks, the general said.

“We realize no matter how thorough our preventative measures are, soldiers will get sick, some will become seriously ill, and unfortunately some may die,” the general said.

The military installation was one of many hit hard by the 1918 global flu pandemic.

During that pandemic, Camp Jackson, as it was known at the time, had more than 60,000 soldiers in training, according to Dale Smith, the historian for the military’s medical school known as the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md.

Exact numbers are hard to come by, but estimates are that about 25 percent of those at the installation got the flu, and of the afflicted about 18 to 20 percent died, Smith said.

Many who became ill recovered, “but it still killed a lot of people,” Smith said.

Associated Press Writer Pauline Jelinek in Washington contributed to this report.


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## Antoine (5 Oct 2009)

> Low wasn't available for an interview on Thursday, but he told the journal that handwashing, "is a simple thing to do and it may protect you from some other illnesses."



Absolutely a good habit.



> Health officials say respirators needed to be sealed properly



Yes, many problems can occur when you think you're safe (I have a mask) and then you are less aware of danger. Not easy to double check daily that your mask is well sealed on your face. However, better be safe than sorry.


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## PMedMoe (5 Oct 2009)

Handwashing will help to prevent other communicable diseases but its effectiveness is questionable regarding prevention of H1N1 influenza which is *droplet* borne.  Transmission of H1N1 by contact (hands touching face/nose/mouth) is thought to be nearly impossible.

N-95 masks need to be fit tested and fit testing needs to be done every two years.  One thing to keep in mind regarding _surgical_ masks (not fit tested) is that they should be worn by the person who is ill, not those who are well.


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2009)

On the topic of masks, I am sure that the "uninformed" will no doubt feel safe with a mask and in fact be facilitating the spread of the virus or other bacteria, etc.  I am almost positive that 99% of the population have no clue as to the proper wearing and maintainance or regular changing of the mask or filters.  I am positive that many will buy simple masks and wear them over long periods, long past their "expiry" date/time.  Many will transmit bacteria/virus spores/etc. from the outer part of their mask when they don or remove their masks to their hands and then other parts of their bodies.  I am positive that 99% of the population will have no clue as to proper "Decontamination Drills" when using their masks.  In effect, their mask only gives them a false sense of security, and nothing more.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Oct 2009)

There is quite a bit of info here:
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/sars-sras/ic-ci/sars-respmasks-eng.php

Let's not get all in a tizzy and wrapped around the axle about masks. Knowledge is power. 

Fit testing a N95 is not rocket science. All employers, in Ontario, supplyng the mask to their employees, are responsible to teach the employee how to don and fit test the mask. If you go buy your own, from a safety supply, etc, in most cases the vendor will be able to show you the procedure. The use of aromatics and pressure testing is not required for general users not using a tight fitting mask. 

A protective mask can offer protection, but there's no evidence inexpensive surgical masks can protect against flu virus particles small enough to be inhaled into the lower respiratory tract or the lungs. It's unclear how effective surgical masks are in blocking flu virus particles that are bigger and therefore likely to settle in the nose and throat of an exposed person. Normal surgical masks, like the one used by a dental hygenist are not sufficient because most don't protect down to the micron level. They won't filter out smaller particles and don't provide a good seal.

Workplaces should always employ engineering controls including physical controls such as ventilation requirements in buildings, and relative humidity and temperature controls. Also administrative controls such as handwashing, covering your mouth when you sneeze or cough or seeking medical care when you're sick. 

If you're in the market for a mask, don't go to the hardware store and pick up one that you'd use while sanding drywall. Covering your mouth and nose with a bandana won't do you much good either.

The best bet for protective masks are what are referred to as "N95 respirators," a commonly used term in Canada that refers to NIOSH-certified, disposable, particulate-filtering, half-facepiece respirators.

Not all high-quality masks are labeled N95. Health Canada says masks should offer protection equivalent to N95 to be considered effective. Such masks should:

Filter particles one micron in size or smaller. 
Have a 95 per cent filter efficiency. 
Provide a tight facial seal (less than 10% leak). 

N95 respirators protect against the inhalation of nasopharyngeal, tracheobronchial and alveolar sized particles. 

Surgical masks worn by an infected person may play a role in the prevention of influenza transmission by reducing the amount of infectious material that is expelled into the environment. 

Both surgical masks and N95 respirators offer a physical barrier to contact with contaminated hands and ballistic trajectory particles, such as particles expelled by a sneeze or a cough. The efficiency of the filters of surgical masks to block penetration of alveolar and tracheobronchial sized particles is highly variable. 

Because of the possible inability of the 'surgical' mask to block penetration and provide a sealed fit the inability to ensure a sealed fit, the surgical masks offer no significant protection against the inhalation of alveolar and tracheobronchial sized particles. 

I've include here some stuff from the Health Care Regulations and the Occupational Health & Safety Act. These are the law for Ontario employers and employees and are Provincial, not Federal, but most other government agencies have something similar. As well, the Health Care regs apply to hospitals and long term care facilities, but the Industrial regs, and others, also have a provision for supply, training and use of PPE (personal protective equipment).

PPE is only effective if used correctly; if used improperly PPE will provide a false sense of security, but no real protection. Workers have a right to be trained about how to use PPE properly—such training should cover how PPE is applied, as well as in what order it should be removed to avoid contamination. The Occupational Health and Safety Act directs employers in Sec 25 (1) (a) that, “the equipment, materials, and protective devices as prescribed are provided” 

And in Sec 25 (2) (a) to “provide information, instruction, and supervision to a worker to protect the health and safety of that worker”. 

In addition, Health Care Regulation 10 states, 

“A worker who is required by his or her employer, or by this Regulation, to wear or use any protective clothing, equipment or device shall be instructed and trained in its care, use, and limitations before wearing or using it for the first time and at regular intervals thereafter and the worker shall participate in such instruction and training”. 

Subsection 2 goes on to direct that the equipment shall be properly used and maintained, that it must be a proper fit, it should be properly inspected for damage and deterioration, and be stored in a convenient, clean and sanitary location when not in use. It is clear in the Act, therefore, that employers bear a responsibility to ensure that workers are trained to use PPE correctly, and that the equipment be kept in good order. 

Workers, however, also have responsibilities under the Act: 

· to work in compliance with the Act (Sec 28.1.a) 

· to use or wear protective devices or clothing that the employer requires to be used or worn (Sec 28.1.b) 

· to report the absence or defect in any equipment or protective device of which the worker is aware (Sec 28.1.c). 

· to report violations of the Act (Sec 28.1.d) 

This means that workers need to INSIST upon training to ensure they know how to properly use their PPE. Direct contact with a H1N1 patient, or contact with an environment contaminated by large respiratory droplets, might have led Health Care Workers to contaminate themselves as they removed their PPE. So if the employer is not providing adequate training, or fit-testing, workers have the responsibility to raise the matter with their employer to protect the safety of themselves, their co-workers, patients, and the broader community. Joint Health and Safety Committees (JHSC) need to ensure that the employer is training workers on PPE, and then continue to monitor and evaluate the PPE training provided to workers. 

Most workplaces have some sort of either a JHSC or a Worker Representative, depending on provincial and federal jurisdiction. If you have a work safety concern, it is your right to contact them and have them work on your behalf to alleviate that concern.


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## Antoine (5 Oct 2009)

Misuse of mask makes me think about people working with gloves but keeping them for everything, might protect them, but their gloves are contaminating everything around.

In hospital you will witness often medical doctors, nurses and lab tech keeping their lab coats and uniforms, even their shoes cover when they go for lunch or chat/smoke outside!

Common sense is not always there!


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## CougarKing (4 Nov 2009)

A catfight *COUGH* argument over swine flu. :

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Swine-Flu-Fears-Lead-to-Girl-on-Girl-Brawl-on-NYC-Subway-68801572.html



> *Swine Flu Fears Lead to Girl-on-Girl Brawl on D Train *
> By BRIAN RIES
> Updated 10:41 AM EST, Tue, Nov 3, 2009
> 
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (7 Nov 2009)

H1N1 flu has, officially, moved from _pandemical panic_ to just plain silly. CBC Radio One in Ottawa news is now discussing the fact that there is no vaccine for animals but at least one pet ferret (the little furry animal not the neat recce car) has died. A veterinarian did offer some good advice: wash your hands often and cough into your elbow. Gee! That's news!


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## 1feral1 (7 Nov 2009)

Australia currently is vacinating all its citizens who are in country right now. All for free.

I'll be getting my jab within a fortnight. You can't beat free "insurance'.

Australia has already had it's first round with Mr Swine this past winter of 2009, and next year it will be back, and some say stronger and more deadly. I am off to the USA in December, and this is the North's flu season.  

OWDU


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## CANADIAN F0RCES (13 Nov 2009)

I've come accross  some news from some minor sites, this situation doesn't make sense to me, if there was a problem why are major news companies not covering this? With that being said why would people lie about this if it is not true? Open discussion. =)

http://mignews.com.ua/en/articles/378527.html


> Besides swine influenza, AN3N2, AN2N2 and group B have been found in the territory of Ukraine. In particular, at present at least 8 different viruses are circulating in the territory of Bukovyna. Such conclusions are made by experts of regional sanitary epidemiological stations following the results of almost 6,000 studies on the identification of acute respiratory viral infections, said the chief state sanitary doctor of the Chernivtsi Region Oleksandr Svitlichny on November 11 at the briefing.
> 
> According to him, all the acute respiratory viral infections, which are currently circulating in the territory of Bukovina, are treated. However, due to the fact that they collided, clinical disease and the tactics of his treatment change. Therefore, a doctor needs to know exactly which virus is detected in the patient.
> 
> ...




http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=uk&u=http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/bogoslovska-v-ukrayini-pochalasya-epidemiya-chumi-a-ne-gripu.html&ei=4yz8So2DIMWAnQeQwNSZBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D0%25A3%25D0%


There were a few more articles only I can't for the life of me remeber where I encountered them. =(.  If anyone else has anything post then lets get this talk going again. I personally think that there mite be a  coverup and it's for population control. but that's me.


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## PMedMoe (13 Nov 2009)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> I personally think that there mite be a  coverup and it's for population control. but that's me.



You think these strains of flu were man made to deliberately kill people??

I think it's just an unfortunate coincidence.  It's too bad they were concentrating too much on the H1N1 vaccine and not so much on the seasonal one.

Ukraine - We have more of the political flu than real A/H1N1 of seasonal flu - President

Not sure why someone would create a potentially lethal strain of a disease and then use drugs specifically meant to fight it.

WHO Urges Doctors To Use Antiviral Drugs Sooner To Prevent Swine Flu Deaths

I think the issue in the Ukraine (and surrounding areas), is more of a political issue and that they probably _are_ lying about the situation.

Ukraine WHO and the Geopolitics of Swine Flu Panic


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## riggermade (13 Nov 2009)

I'm going for my H1N1 in about 20 minutes, if you do not hear from me on this site then maybe all the conspiracy theories are true.  I am sure my doctor who got the shot himself has a death wish for him and myself


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## PMedMoe (13 Nov 2009)

riggermade said:
			
		

> I'm going for my H1N1 in about 20 minutes, if you do not hear from me on this site then maybe all the conspiracy theories are true.  I am sure my doctor who got the shot himself has a death wish for him and myself



Pfft.  I got it over two weeks ago and I'm fine......really......


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## riggermade (13 Nov 2009)

I know its only been 1/2 hour but no extra appendages growing yet and nothing has fell off...still breathing...


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## Braver.Stronger.Smarter. (13 Nov 2009)

Meh...I didn't get the shot, got the flu, and I'm still alive and kicking.
All they play in the news are the people that are dying from H1N1 (not that they aren't important) but there's no airtime for the people like me who just get a week off to catch up on sleep and try not to infect anyone else. Besides, now that I've had it, I hear that I've got immunity so that's not a bad thing.


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## CougarKing (20 Nov 2009)

Yikes.  

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/091120/health/health_flu_who_mutation



> GENEVA (AFP) - The World Health Organisation said Friday that a mutation had been found in samples of the swine flu virus taken following the first two deaths from the pandemic in Norway.
> 
> However, it stressed that the mutation did not appear to cause a more contagious or more dangerous form of A(H1N1) influenza and that some similar cases observed elsewhere had been mild.
> 
> (...)


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## a_majoor (4 Jan 2010)

Although this is geared towards bacteria, Norway's solutions are practical, low cost and are not panic inducing. Vaccination is still the best course of action with viral infactions, but applying some of these principles also will help slow the spread of disease:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_re_us/when_drugs_stop_working_norway_s_answer



> *Solution to killer superbug found in Norway*
> AP
> 
> By MARTHA MENDOZA and MARGIE MASON, Associated Press Writers Martha Mendoza And Margie Mason, Associated Press Writers – Thu Dec 31, 12:01 am ET
> ...


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## ModlrMike (4 Jan 2010)

A very good article. Unfortunately, north americans are so pill centric that it will be an uphill battle. At least in my emerg, we're very reluctant to prescribe antibiotics. Hopefully that contributes to some local success.


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## GORD07192012 (20 Jul 2012)

Given H1N1 vaccine in military, November 18, 2009.  Immediately following the shot, the following symptoms occurred and became permanent: dizziness, fever, fatigue, coughing, irregular heartbeat, tightness in chest and throat, diarrhea, shortness of breath, night sweats, abdominal pain and cramps.  Within several months following the vaccination, I passed out several times, had a seizure and was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Orthostatic Hypotension, Chronic Fatigue, and eventually AFIB.  My pre-vaccination health was at a high athletic level for military standards which included pre-qualification for special forces.  Immediately following the vaccination I was unable to maintain any physical fitness without increasing the severity of symptoms.  Eventually I was released from the military as disabled but was denied medical coverage.  Following my release I requested copies of my military medical records and became aware of several of the above diagnosis which I was not advised of while in the military, specifically for Multiple Sclerosis and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.  IF YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED ADVERSE REACTIONS TO THIS VACCINATION, PLEASE POST A REPLY.


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