# What's firing a .50 cal sniper rifle do to snipers' heads?



## The Bread Guy (16 Dec 2019)

Seems to be a question the CAF's research arm is trying to find a more detailed answer to -- this from buyandsell.gc.ca ....


> ... *Requirement:* Defence Research and Development Canada (DRDC)-Valcartier wishes to acquire a total of 50 units of a commercially available smart mouth guard meeting a well-defined technical specification. In addition, DRDC wished to acquire two storage cases that can be used for storing and charging the mouth guards at the shooting range.
> 
> *Background:* Recently, members of the CAF sniper community have expressed concerns regarding the effects of being repeatedly exposed to recoil from long-range rifles. Specifically, there is a concern that the high rate head kinematic that snipers experience during firing of a 0.50 caliber rifle might have a cumulative negative effect on their health. In order to assess the potential risk of developing a brain injury from the repeated firing of long-range rifles, the head kinematics of Snipers during a typical firing event needs to be characterized.
> 
> ...


More details in attached bid document.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (17 Dec 2019)

I totally mis-read the title of this thread...


----------



## CBH99 (17 Dec 2019)

Think we all did...


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Dec 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I totally mis-read the title of this thread...



Geez... what a bunch of psychos  : (joking! joking!)


----------



## CountDC (17 Dec 2019)

Yep - first thought was a lot.   :nod:


----------



## Blackadder1916 (17 Dec 2019)

Like most I thought the subject matter would be different. But when reading the piece my first thought went to this topic.  If the effects of repeated "mini" concussive actions to the head are concerning to the limited sniper community would there be a similar concern and study if regular combatives training was a compulsory activity army-wide.


----------



## medicineman (17 Dec 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Like most I thought the subject matter would be different. But when reading the piece my first thought went to this topic.  If the effects of repeated "mini" concussive actions to the head are concerning to the limited sniper community would there be a similar concern and study if regular combatives training was a compulsory activity army-wide.



I seem to recall there being concerns in the early days regarding retinal issues as well due to the concussive effects...and after being around some firing, even with the suppressors on, you really feel that thump.

MM


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Dec 2019)

How about looking into the concussive effect the 84 mm Karl G has on the troops ?


----------



## Old Sweat (17 Dec 2019)

In September 1968 I had the pleasure of forming and commanding the M109 wing. We drew the guns from Base Supply, organized and trained ourselves, and then began to train gunners ranging from TQ3 fresh from the depot up to senior commissioned and non-commissioned members. One of our first tasks was to support a trail run by DRE(S) to measure the blast overpressure from live firing. To put it mildly, the results would have been concerning, if anybody took them seriously.


----------



## dangerboy (17 Dec 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> How about looking into the concussive effect the 84 mm Karl G has on the troops ?



The CAF is looking at that as well as the effects of breaching.


----------



## FJAG (17 Dec 2019)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> In September 1968 I had the pleasure of forming and commanding the M109 wing. We drew the guns from Base Supply, organized and trained ourselves, and then began to train gunners ranging from TQ3 fresh from the depot up to senior commissioned and non-commissioned members. One of our first tasks was to support a trail run by DRE(S) to measure the blast overpressure from live firing. To put it mildly, the results would have been concerning, if anybody took them seriously.



During my basic arty Offr course I was the number 3 on one of our M109s during live fire. At one point we layed the gun at an elevation a little higher then usual and I stepped back just before firing. I looked up, through the open hatch in the ceiling to see the muzzle quite clearly (this was in the A1 short barrel days) and as the gun went off I was slammed back into an ammo rack and my helmet liner went flying out of the side hatch. After that I stayed a lot closer to my sight under cover.

There were more than one story of safety officers standing between the guns too closely and being lifted off their feet.

Always makes me wonder if the longer barrels on the M777s keep the blast away from the Nos 2 &3 who are pretty much out in the open.

 :cheers:


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Dec 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> How about looking into the concussive effect the 84 mm Karl G has on the troops ?



There's firing tables in BGL 381- Ranges and Trg Safety about how many rounds people can be exposed to in a day the problem is no one listens to it. People get laughed at for bringing it up.


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Dec 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There's firing tables in BGL 381- Ranges and Trg Safety about how many rounds people can be exposed to in a day the problem is no one listens to it. People get laughed at for bringing it up.



Sometimes, when I was feeling a bit woozy from running the 84mm range I'd take a break by running the grenade range because - Infantry


----------



## medicineman (17 Dec 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Sometimes, when I was feeling a bit woozy from running the 84mm range I'd take a break by running the grenade range because - Infantry



And your sinuses were cleaned out anyway right?

MM


----------



## dangerboy (18 Dec 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There's firing tables in BGL 381- Ranges and Trg Safety about how many rounds people can be exposed to in a day the problem is no one listens to it. People get laughed at for bringing it up.



Of course those tables were for hearing and have not been updated to include Traumatic brain injuries.


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 Dec 2019)

medicineman said:
			
		

> And your sinuses were cleaned out anyway right?
> 
> MM



It was fun experimenting with how close one needed to get to the 84mm when it was firing before the big invisible stick bashing on one's head stopped.

One needed to be pretty close as I recall.


----------



## ArmyRick (19 Dec 2019)

84mm. Yup, read the details. A guy named Craig Hood and I were A/RSO (Bay NCOs) for the 84mm ranges, we put through 2 platoons of candidates about 40 each in one day. My head was fine no problems, now pass me that jar of peanut butter before I pour it in my webbing while on leave running to slow down for something.


----------



## stoker dave (19 Dec 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There's firing tables in BGL 381- Ranges and Trg Safety about how many rounds people can be exposed to in a day the problem is no one listens to it. People get laughed at for bringing it up.



OK, I know nothing about firing weapons and I have no business in this thread. 

But that statement above really sets me off.  You have safety procedures in place for a reason.  If you are choosing to (or being directed to) ignore documented safety procedures that is a failure of discipline and a failure of leadership. 

It is that kind of attitude - choosing which regulations to obey and which not to - that leads to all kinds of problems. 

For reference, I was in the navy.  Now I work at a construction site.  If someone doesn't follow safety procedures (or tells others to ignore safety procedures) they are taken off the site immediately and will likely be fired.  

I know this comes across as pretty heavy handed and for that I apologize.  Without drifting too far off the original topic, can someone enlighten me on this?


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2020)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> 84mm. Yup, read the details. A guy named Craig Hood and I were A/RSO (Bay NCOs) for the 84mm ranges, we put through 2 platoons of candidates about 40 each in one day. My head was fine no problems, now pass me that jar of peanut butter before I pour it in my webbing while on leave running to slow down for something.


And this old dog in April 1992 was RSO for 84, M72 and grenades.

What are we talking about? Where are my glasses?? My car keys are missing....

It really isn't a laughing matter....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2020)

What about sitting behind a .50 BMG? Granted, you're not hugging it, but it still has substantial recoil and muzzle blast.


----------



## medicineman (3 Mar 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It was fun experimenting with how close one needed to get to the 84mm when it was firing before the big invisible stick bashing on one's head stopped.
> 
> One needed to be pretty close as I recall.



I found myself in the wrong place in the back blast radius during a platoon attack...got up parallel with the number 2 about 15ft away and still felt like a sledgehammer smoked me upside the head.  They missed on the first shot...

MM


----------



## Haggis (3 Mar 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It was fun experimenting with how close one needed to get to the 84mm when it was firing before the big invisible stick bashing on one's head stopped.



The 84mm was much harder on the RSOs than the old (and I'm dating myself) 3.5" rocket launcher which was more of a "whoosh" than a "crack!".  My least favourite weapon to RSO was the 106mm RCL.  Every time it went off (and they were employed/sited in pairs) it felt like you got simultaneously kicked in the chest and slapped in the nuts.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Mar 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The 84mm was much harder on the RSOs than the old (and I'm dating myself) 3.5" rocket launcher which was more of a "whoosh" than a "crack!".  My least favourite weapon to RSO was the 106mm RCL.  Every time it went off (and they were employed/sited in pairs) it felt like you got simultaneously kicked in the chest and slapped in the nuts.



Funny, as I read that I envisioned a new stunt for 'America's Got Talent.'


----------

