# CFB Borden gets first female commander



## GAP (7 Jul 2012)

CFB Borden gets first female commander
By Sarah Ratchford 
Article Link

COL. Tammy Harris never felt being a woman held her back when it came to moving up the ranks in the military.

That attitude appears to have paid off as Harris was sworn in as the first female base commander at CFB Borden on Friday, assuming responsibility for Canada's largest training base.

"I can honestly say, throughout my career, that I've never experienced any barriers because I've been a woman," she said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"I've always been able to do what I've wanted to do based on my own skills and abilities, and the challenges that I've put on myself."

Her career has taken her to Germany, Afghanistan and a number of Canadian provinces, and throughout Harris said she always felt free to pursue any goals she set for herself.

The base she now commands -- located about 100 kilometres north of Toronto -- trains an average of 15,000 military personnel each year. It also employs about 3,250 members of the military and around 1,500 civilians.

As she takes command, the 45-year-old emphasizes that accomplishments aren't about being male or female. Drive and passion are what get people where they want to go, in her view.

"Whatever your goals are, the opportunity is there to achieve them if you so desire," she said. "Gender does not really play into the equation."

This isn't the first major appointment for Harris. She was the first woman in the country to hold the position of wing commander in Gander, N.L., one of the country's busiest search-and-rescue areas.

Her goals in her new post include continuing on with the Forces' efforts to promote bilingualism so all courses in the military can be offered in both French and English.

Harris also wants to focus on the infrastructure at CFB Borden during her two-year tenure at the base.

The stepmother of three daughters said she wants to modernize training practices in place now so new recruits can spend as much time with their families as possible while still learning what it means to be in the military.

The native of Annapolis Valley, N.S., started with the military in 1987.

It wasn't for another two years that women were given the right to take part in combat. Harris was in Europe at the time, but she said anything that grants women choice is a good thing.

Despite the fact the military is still a male-dominated field made up of only about 15 per cent women, Harris said it's not one of her priorities to specifically recruit young women.
More on link


----------



## dogger1936 (7 Jul 2012)

In other news man get promoted to Mcpl.


----------



## Ostrozac (7 Jul 2012)

The Canadian Press and CBC are reporting that this appointment makes Colonel Harris the first female base commander in Canada. To my understanding, that's simply not the case. In fact, isn't this not even her first posting as a base commander? Wasn't she previously commander CFB Gander/9 Wing?


----------



## JorgSlice (7 Jul 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> The Canadian Press and CBC are reporting that this appointment makes Colonel Harris the first female base commander in Canada. To my understanding, that's simply not the case. In fact, isn't this not even her first posting as a base commander? Wasn't she previously commander CFB Gander/9 Wing?



Oh but if that is the case, it's Gander in middle-of-nowhere Newfoundland and not Borden-1 hour 38 min-from-the-centre-of-the-universe Ontario so it's obviously a HUGE deal!  :


 ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Jul 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> The Canadian Press and CBC are reporting that this appointment makes Colonel Harris the first female base commander in Canada. To my understanding, that's simply not the case. In fact, isn't this not even her first posting as a base commander? Wasn't she previously commander CFB Gander/9 Wing?




According to this, in 2007, as a LCol, _"... she was appointed the Commander of 9 Wing Gander and relinquished command in June 2009 when she left for a deployment in Afghanistan as the Commanding Officer of the Canadian Element Roto 8 for COMKAF and the Chief J5 Planner for NATO on the Kandahar Airfield and Base."_


----------



## armyvern (7 Jul 2012)

What's wrong with her Official Portrait in that article?

Is it the beginning of a new standard for the RCAF and that Training Base in particular??

I should print it off and hand it to all my RCAF types to back them up next time they are on parade ... should the RSM start yelling (and he will - just as he did for CoC practice when one dared show in the beret with 3Bs).


----------



## aesop081 (7 Jul 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> In other news man get promoted to Mcpl.



Exactly.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> What's wrong with her Official Portrait in that article?
> 
> Is it the beginning of a new standard for the RCAF and that Training Base in particular??
> 
> I should print it off and hand it to all my RCAF types to back them up next time they are on parade ... should the RSM start yelling (and he will - just as he did for CoC practice when one dared show in the beret with 3Bs).



She's not wearing her wedge at a "jaunty angle"?


----------



## armyvern (7 Jul 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> The Canadian Press and CBC are reporting that this appointment makes Colonel Harris the first female base commander in Canada. To my understanding, that's simply not the case. In fact, isn't this not even her first posting as a base commander? Wasn't she previously commander CFB Gander/9 Wing?



All the articles I can find state "first female base commander of CFB Borden" and mention her previously having been the Wg Comd at Gander - pretty much the same as the original article posted here does.

Not that that makes it news either.


----------



## armyvern (7 Jul 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> She's not wearing her wedge at a "jaunty angle"?



No. She's wearing her beret which is a no-no IAW Dress Regs. Only tan people get to do that.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No. She's wearing her beret which is a no-no IAW Dress Regs. Only tan people get to do that.



Why do you gotta go and make it racial?  ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No. She's wearing her beret which is a no-no IAW Dress Regs. Only tan people get to do that.




Hmmm ... on the link (Director Senior Appointment) I posted just above she's wearing a wedge at a very pedestrian angle.


----------



## armyvern (7 Jul 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Hmmm ... on the link (Director Senior Appointment) I posted just above she's wearing a wedge at a very pedestrian angle.



I've attached in the photo that is included in the original article in my previous post. It is an official portrait; she is sporting a beret. 

Personally, maybe they released the wrong photo of her to the media ... but why even sit for an official portrait in unauthorized orders of dress? Or maybe the media, in this case, just pulled one of her in an unauthorized beret from the vast archives of her portraits that show up when one google-foos her name + images. Would that be acceptable for the troops to do?


----------



## Ostrozac (7 Jul 2012)

My copy of the Dress Pam (Version 2011-06-01) certainly says that wearing a beret with Air Force DEU is approved with number 3 (service dress). Air Force DEU number 1 (ceremonial) remains no berets. Chapter 5, Para 5. So I think that picture of the Colonel in number 3 (DEU Tunic and Ribbons) is perfectly legit.

Has there been a change? Sometimes higher headquarters will order changes, but not actually update the pam.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Jul 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Has there been a change?



No, there has been no change. Beret is authorized for wear with #3s.


----------



## armyvern (7 Jul 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> My copy of the Dress Pam (Version 2011-06-01) certainly says that wearing a beret with Air Force DEU is approved with number 3 (service dress). Air Force DEU number 1 (ceremonial) remains no berets. Chapter 5, Para 5. So I think that picture of the Colonel in number 3 (DEU Tunic and Ribbons) is perfectly legit.
> 
> Has there been a change? Sometimes higher headquarters will order changes, but not actually update the pam.



If it's changed to that now ... then that's a change. 

Maybe it changed while I was deployed or on the french course and I missed it ... as the RSM must have too. And the troop who got the extras (not one of mine).


----------



## aesop081 (7 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If it's changed to that now ... then that's a change.



It has been authorized, as far as i know, since 2007 at a minimum. (That's the year i made the mistake of asking my SCWO of it what he was wearing was authorized and he produced the reference that said "yes")

The current version of CFP-265 has been valid since last year.


----------



## dogger1936 (7 Jul 2012)

A RSM and SSM who doesn't know the dress regs? Lot's of weird wonderful stuff happens in the army...but that aint one of em! ;D


----------



## 2 Cdo (7 Jul 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> A RSM and SSM who doesn't know the dress regs? Lot's of weird wonderful stuff happens in the army...but that aint one of em! ;D



Seen it once at an unnamed unit the resides at CFB Kingston. Not only did they not know dress regs but also didn't know the proper conduct of an honour guard. ;D


----------



## armyvern (7 Jul 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It has been authorized, as far as i know, since 2007 at a minimum. (That's the year i made the mistake of asking my SCWO of it what he was wearing was authorized and he produced the reference that said "yes")
> 
> The current version of CFP-265 has been valid since last year.



Makes sense. It certainly wasn't authorized when I was a member of the AF. I'm also quite certain it wasn't when I was the CLO and digging through dress regs daily for the RSMs.  Good to know it's changed though ... can't wait for next parade.  ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jul 2012)

So, let's put this headress tangent to bed and quit veering the original topic off course please.

You guys and your hats, I swear.......

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## X Royal (7 Jul 2012)

A change in command parade in short sleeves?
I never seen that during my time in.
When I seen it on the news yesterday to me it looked 2nd class.
When I was in I didn't particularly like dressing up for change of command parades but they at least looked more professional.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jul 2012)

X Royal said:
			
		

> A change in command parade in short sleeves?
> I never seen that during my time in.
> When I seen it on the news yesterday to me it looked 2nd class.
> When I was in I didn't particularly like dressing up for change of command parades but they at least looked more professional.



Yup. Sticking troops out on a parade square wearing full uniforms in 35+ degree heat, for the sake of looks, is what we've all come to expect of The RCR. Health & welfare be damned. Just so long as they look good, passed out face down, on the pavement.


----------



## Snaketnk (7 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yup. Sticking troops out on a parade square wearing full uniforms in 35+ degree heat, for the sake of looks, is what we've all come to expect of The RCR. Health & welfare be damned. Just so long as they look good, passed out face down, on the pavement.



Wait, are you supposed to be joking?  ;D


----------



## X Royal (7 Jul 2012)

Although I congratulate her on her new command she looked like a bag of crap in her over sized uniform. 
Maybe it's unreasonable to expect commanders of our major bases to look professional.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jul 2012)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Although I congratulate her on her new command she looked like a bag of crap in her over sized uniform.



Maybe she was reading army.ca fitness section and lost a lot of weight and didn't get replacement DEUs in time?

Personally I get put off by stories like this. Should we highlight when a base gets a first native american commander? Or first gay commander? Or first black Jewish commander?

I think there is good intentions behind stories like this but to me it comes across a little embarrassing. If I were in her shoes my response would have been "Yea I'm a female get over it I have shit to do"
.


----------



## fraserdw (7 Jul 2012)

X Royal said:
			
		

> A change in command parade in short sleeves?
> I never seen that during my time in.
> When I seen it on the news yesterday to me it looked 2nd class.
> When I was in I didn't particularly like dressing up for change of command parades but they at least looked more professional.



Canada's Army did short sleeve C of C parades all the time in the summer in the thirties.  Short sleeve order and pith helmets was regular summer training dress during the period of empire.


----------



## fraserdw (7 Jul 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Maybe she was reading army.ca fitness section and lost a lot of weight and didn't get replacement DEUs in time?
> 
> Personally I get put off by stories like this. Should we highlight when a base gets a first native american commander? Or first gay commander? Or first black Jewish commander?
> 
> ...



I disagree, we need to highlight women as equals in our military.  In that way the crapheads like Gen Menard cannot use their rank and our military as their own personal sexual hunting ground.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jul 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I disagree, we need to highlight women as equals in our military.  In that way the crapheads like Gen Menard cannot use their rank and our military as their own personal sexual hunting ground.



I disagree with you disagreeing, sir.

I feel people's minds are already made up.  if you think women are below you and lesser, highlighting a female officer as a base commander will likely not change your perspective on their gender. I don't know how many times I've heard a reaction to a woman's rank or accomplishments as "wonder who she slept with". I think that mentality is garbage.  

I'm a (handsome) while straight male so I've never experienced racism or prejudice directed towards me but if you don't mind me respectfully asking to use you as an example Fraserdw;  I think you've identified yourself as being native?  If so, how would it make you feel if you were singled out for being native when you achieved an accomplishment?
First native american soldier to win a MSM (or something). Would you feel like your accomplishment is diminished because you're race was a key factor in a story about you?  Or am i taking it totally out of context.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Jul 2012)

X Royal said:
			
		

> A change in command parade in short sleeves?
> I never seen that during my time in.



My unit did that a few weeks ago. It was 42 degrees outside.


----------



## my72jeep (7 Jul 2012)

95 or 96 Base change of command for Borden was out side on the S parade square. SS order All was great till the rain came. Air force blue is transparent when wet as one poor Female MCpl discovered. Next day Base RO's posted dress reg's stating that a bra will be worn under SS order.


----------



## krustyrl (7 Jul 2012)

Really.?


----------



## Strike (7 Jul 2012)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Although I congratulate her on her new command she looked like a bag of crap in her over sized uniform.
> Maybe it's unreasonable to expect commanders of our major bases to look professional.



I would be more likely to blame that on the cut of the DEU pants for women.

Also going to a change of command parade in Halifax next week where dress is 3Bs.


----------



## Jorkapp (7 Jul 2012)

Congratulations to Col Harris on her new command.



> A change in command parade in short sleeves?
> I never seen that during my time in.
> When I seen it on the news yesterday to me it looked 2nd class.
> When I was in I didn't particularly like dressing up for change of command parades but they at least looked more professional.



We were in short sleeves last year for several change of command parades; It happens all the time for parades in hot weather.

Photographic evidence:

1 Cdn Air Div: http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/vital/v2/nr-sp/images/2011/07/wg2011-0269-22.jpg
2 Cdn Air Div: http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/vital/v2/nr-sp/images/2011/07/wg2011-0267-07.jpg (Hey, I can see myself!)
Also for 17 Wing / AFTC, but I can't find a picture.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Jul 2012)

Guy Incognito said:
			
		

> Congratulations to Col Harris on her new command.
> 
> We were in short sleeves last year for several change of command parades; It happens all the time for parades in hot weather.
> 
> ...



The Air Div CWO's holstered BB is a nice touch...


----------



## muskrat89 (8 Jul 2012)

> The Air Div CWO's holstered BB is a nice touch..



First thing I noticed

 ???


----------



## Jacky Tar (12 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No. She's wearing her beret which is a no-no IAW Dress Regs. Only tan people get to do that.



Sorry, ArmyVern - check A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Annex C. Beret is authorized for RCAF No 3 order of dress. And let's keep the racism down in the mess, please.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Sep 2012)

Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> Sorry, ArmyVern - check A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Annex C. Beret is authorized for RCAF No 3 order of dress. And let's keep the racism down in the mess, please.



A fact that was already pointed out on the first page of this thread.


----------



## 4Feathers (12 Sep 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> My copy of the Dress Pam (Version 2011-06-01) certainly says that wearing a beret with Air Force DEU is approved with number 3 (service dress). Air Force DEU number 1 (ceremonial) remains no berets. Chapter 5, Para 5. So I think that picture of the Colonel in number 3 (DEU Tunic and Ribbons) is perfectly legit.
> 
> Has there been a change? Sometimes higher headquarters will order changes, but not actually update the pam.



New CANAIRGEN:
CANAIRGEN 2012 

01  01  021939Z AUG  12  ZZ      UUUU                 C AIR FORCE

 NDHQ C AIR FORCE OTTAWA

CANAIRGEN

UNCLAS C AIR FORCE 30/12

SIC WAF

BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE

CANAIRGEN 019/12


   
SUBJECT: RCAF HEADDRESS 
Original word document



REFS: A. CANAIRGEN 15/11 REINSTATEMENT OF ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE
B. A-DH-265-000/AG-001, DATED: JUN 11
SUBJECT: RCAF HEADDRESS

1. AS INDICATED IN REF A, THE RCAF NAME WOULD BE REINTRODUCED IN A 
PHASED APPROACH. PART OF THAT PROCESS INCLUDES THE SAFEGUARD OF THE 
TRADITIONAL IMAGE OF THE RCAF. THIS IMAGE INCLUDES THE WEARING OF 
THE WEDGE CAP AS THE OFFICIAL RCAF HEADDRESS. AS SUCH THE WEARING OF 
THE RCAF BLUE WEDGE CAP WITH NO COLOURED INSERT WILL BE MANDATORY 
FOR ALL MEMBERS WEARING THE RCAF ORDER OF DRESS 1 AND 1A.  THE WEAR 
OF OTHER HEADDRESS WITH OPERATIONAL AND SERVICE DRESS WILL BE IN 
ACCORDANCE WITH REF B


2. RCAF CWO BRIEFED THOSE CHANGES TO THE AIR COMMAND CLOTHING AND 
DRESS COMMITTEE AND THE NATIONAL DEFENCE DRESS AND CLOTHING 
COMMITTEE. MODIFICATIONS TO REF B ARE FORTHCOMING. NECESSARY DETAILS 
OF THIS POLICY WILL BE FORWARDED THROUGH RCAF COC FOR FURTHER 
DISSEMINATION
3. IN THE EVENT OF AN EXCEPTIONAL FORMAL CEREMONY, IE FUNERALS, 
INTERNATIONAL COMMENDATIONS, UNITS OR SPECIFIC GROUPS MAY REQUEST 
THE WEAR OF THE BERET IN WRITING TO 1 OR 2 CDN AIR DIV COMDS. EACH 
REQUEST WILL BE CONSIDERED FOR APPROVAL BY APPROPRIATE DIVISION 
COMMANDERS.


4.THIS WILL NOT ALTER THE RIGHTS OF RCAF PERSONNEL TO WEAR THE YUKON 
HAT OR THE SIKH COMMUNITY TO WEAR A TURBAN WHEN AUTHORIZED TO DO SO
5. IDENTIFICATION AND SENSE OF BELONGING TO SPECIFIC TRADES, GROUPS 
AND COMMUNITIES WILL STILL BE DISPLAYED ON RCAF UNIFORMS WITH 
ENVIRONMENTAL, FLYING, SPECIALIST AND OCCUPATION BADGES


6. FROM THE PUBLICATION DATE OF THIS CANAIRGEN THERE WILL BE A 30 
DAY TRANSITION PERIOD FOR THE APPLICATION OF THIS POLICY


7. QUESTIONS OR CONCERNS ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE EA RCAF CWO, MWO 
A DONALDSON-DILELLO CSN 995-0519 OR RCAF CWO, CWO M BARHAM CSN 
995-4245.


----------



## armyvern (12 Sep 2012)

Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> Sorry, ArmyVern - check A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Annex C. Beret is authorized for RCAF No 3 order of dress. And let's keep the racism down in the mess, please.



Holy fuck; nothing like necroposting a few months late eh? 

We figured that out two months ago.  

Racism!!?? Where the heck is that?? Link please - that's a pretty serious statement to be making about someone.


----------



## MikeL (12 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Racism!!?? Where the heck is that?? Link please - that's a pretty serious statement to be making about someone.



I would assume Jacky Tar is referring to



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Only tan people get to do that.



Instead of taking "tan people" to mean CANSOF,  I think Jacky Tar took that to mean a ethnic/racial group


----------



## dapaterson (12 Sep 2012)

I think someone doesn't understand that CANSOFCOM wear Tan berets - hence Vern's use of the phrase "Tan people".

Much like SAR techs are orange, MPs are red, Crewmen and sailors are black...


----------



## armyvern (12 Sep 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I would assume Jacky Tar is referring to
> 
> Instead of taking "tan people" to mean CANSOF,  I think Jacky Tar took that to me a ethnic/racial group



Ahhhh, seen.


----------



## bridges (13 Sep 2012)

For my part, I think this kind of thing is still noteworthy, at least of a passing mention if not national headlines.  No harm in reflecting on the changes taking place in our organization.

A couple of smaller points that struck me from the article:
-Col Harris mentioned that she'd never experienced any barriers (whether regulatory or social, it's unclear) in the CF due to her gender.  While I'm glad to hear that, it shouldn't necessarily be taken as reflecting everyone's experience - at least from a certain era.  I got "no females on parade" & a few other restrictions & harrassment (some of it good-natured & returned in kind).  This was around the same time Col Harris joined;  I don't know what things are like now.

-The article mentions that Col Harris is a step-mother to three daughters.  While I know nothing about her family situation and am not in *any way* attempting to comment on her or anyone else's circumstances or the reasons behind same, it did cross my mind that I don't know of any female General or Flag officers who've physically had children while in the CF and subsequently risen to that rank level(?).  Certainly not as many as fathers.  This brought to mind Anne-Marie Slaughter's recent article in _The Atlantic_, "Why Women Still Can’t Have It All".  She was the first female director of policy planning in the U.S. State dept., but resigned as she found the demands incompatible with having children.  

No doubt this has already been hashed and rehashed elsewhere on Army.ca, but I'm wondering if, even in this era of unparalleled MATA benefits etc., whether having children has a practical impact - regardless of what the regs say - on a woman's ability to get to the highest ranks.   Not that that's necessarily significant in & of itself, unless it's actually keeping some good candidates from tossing their names in the hat.

Anyway, that's what struck me from this particular article.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Racism!!?? Where the heck is that?? Link please - that's a pretty serious statement to be making about someone.



Damn!........that's the funniest thing I've read all day.   Jacky Tar, even a dirty civi like myself knew what she meant .................OK, Monkhouse, stop laughing.....everyone is loking...


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Sep 2012)

I've found the mess is pretty much the best place for racism. And drinking games.


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Sep 2012)

And racist drinking games.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Sep 2012)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And racist drinking games.



Ah yes, how could I forget the green people.


----------



## Loachman (13 Sep 2012)

4Feathers said:
			
		

> 1. AS INDICATED IN REF A, THE RCAF NAME WOULD BE REINTRODUCED IN A
> PHASED APPROACH. PART OF THAT PROCESS INCLUDES THE SAFEGUARD OF THE
> TRADITIONAL IMAGE OF THE RCAF. THIS IMAGE INCLUDES THE WEARING OF
> THE WEDGE CAP AS THE OFFICIAL RCAF HEADDRESS. AS SUCH THE WEARING OF
> ...



As CF pers in light blue uniforms are posted to all environmental and operational commands besides the Organization Formerly Known as Air Command, ie RCN (ex-Maritime Command), CA (ex-Land Force Command), Canada Command, CANSOFCOM etcetera, what, then, is "RCAF ORDER OF DRESS 1 AND 1A", and to whom does this apply? Does the comd of one environmental command get to tell commanders of other commands how their people should dress?

Until there are three different services again, there are no "RCN", "CA", or "RCAF" uniforms.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Sep 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> As CF pers in light blue uniforms are posted to all environmental and operational commands besides the Organization Formerly Known as Air Command, ie RCN (ex-Maritime Command), CA (ex-Land Force Command), Canada Command, CANSOFCOM etcetera, what, then, is "RCAF ORDER OF DRESS 1 AND 1A", and to whom does this apply? Does the comd of one environmental command get to tell commanders of other commands how their people should dress?



Same issue came up with the RCN trying to impose NCDs on sailors outside RCN units to make the navy "more visible".


----------



## JorgSlice (3 Oct 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> As CF pers in light blue uniforms are posted to all environmental and operational commands besides the Organization Formerly Known as Air Command, ie RCN (ex-Maritime Command), CA (ex-Land Force Command), Canada Command, CANSOFCOM etcetera, what, then, is "RCAF ORDER OF DRESS 1 AND 1A", and to whom does this apply? Does the comd of one environmental command get to tell commanders of other commands how their people should dress?
> 
> Until there are three different services again, there are no "RCN", "CA", or "RCAF" uniforms.



You mean, "three different services" how? Because despite different patterns of uniforms, the layout is generally the same? I just got confused and curious at this point.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (3 Oct 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> SS order All was great till the rain came. Air force blue is transparent when wet as one poor Female MCpl discovered. Next day Base RO's posted dress reg's stating that a bra will be worn under SS order.


I was about to make a joke about you saying SS order, like we were back in Germany during WWII or something.  I then however read the remainder of your post and my incredibly professional and politically correct imagination took over.  Can't get that image out of my head now.  I'm a horrible person.


----------



## Loachman (3 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> You mean, "three different services" how? Because despite different patterns of uniforms, the layout is generally the same? I just got confused and curious at this point.



There used to be three separate services: RCN, CA, and RCAF. Since Unification, there has been only one, the Canadian Armed Forces.

Some people think that we have gone back to three services again, just because their names have been resurrected. We have not.

Regardless of dress uniform colour, anybody can be "RCN", "CA", or "RCAF", or none of those, and/or flip back and forth from one to the other.


----------



## JorgSlice (3 Oct 2012)

So in order to join the RCN, you had to apply to the RCN. If you wanted to join the RCAF, you had to apply to the RCAF - it was not central?

Too young to really know the pre-unification and post-unification PROs and CONs in detail, but it's interesting. Even my Dad was in after unification and can't speak for it.

Interesting, thanks Loachman.


----------



## aesop081 (3 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> So in order to join the RCN, you had to apply to the RCN. If you wanted to join the RCAF, you had to apply to the RCAF - it was not central?



Correct.

Now it is different.

For example, i wear the "air" DEU but for 11 months i was a member of ADM(IM), not the RCAF so my blue uniform could not be said to be an "RCAF" uniform as i was not a member of the RCAF.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Oct 2012)

Sounds pretty silly if you ask me.

Thanks CA, The More You Know!


----------



## Loachman (4 Oct 2012)

Yes. Silly.

The CF has a renowned history of silly dress policies.

This is what happens when one government smunches the three former Services into one, all wearing a common (green) dress uniform, another government decides to go back to three different dress uniforms a couple of decades later while leaving the single-service structure alone, and a third government decides to apply the names of the original three services to three environmental commands within the same single service. Maritime Command, Land Force Command, and Air Command were renamed. That left other commands, such as Canada Command, Canadian Expeditionary Forces Command, Canadian Operational Support Command (now all merged), Canadian Special Operations Forces Command, NDHQ itself, the Medical and Training organizations, and probably a bunch of others, who wear the three different colours of uniforms yet are not RCN, CA, or RCAF by today's definition of those titles.

This is why it is almost impossible to find a unit wherein every member wears the same dress uniform, so parades resemble three-ring circuses.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Oct 2012)

Wow, I've got much to learn still...


----------



## Ostrozac (4 Oct 2012)

The dress pam officially calls the light blue uniforms "air force distinctive environmental uniforms" -- and that was the case even when we didn't actually have anything designated as an air force. Now that we do, maybe Royal Canadian Air Force distinctive environmental uniform is actually the proper name of the garments.


----------



## Loachman (4 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Wow, I've got much to learn still...



Then there was Base Dress for those with light and dark blue dress uniforms, and Garrison Dress for those with green ones. That meant that, for several years, the Army guys wore plain olive green combat clothing in the field, and a cheap polyester camouflage jacket on base, with the old dark green work dress trousers. The camouflage colours were selected to blend/co-ordinate with the trousers rather than any particular environment.

The trial version appeared in Germany during my time there. My first encounter occurred at the Mess at Happy Hour one Friday night, when a bunch of Vandoo Officers strutted in. That jacket had a different camouflage pattern (lighter and more natural colours than the final version) and olive green trousers (not adopted due to cost; there were tons of work dress trousers in the supply system). One of the teachers that we were plying with cheap booze asked who they were. "Canadians. Vandoos", said I. "Those are the new Garrison Dress uniforms". I only new that because I'd heard about them, and recognized the Vandoo flashes on their shoulders. "Oh", said one of the teachers. "That looks like something that Colonel Qadaffy would wear".

Another memorable uniform occasion: I was attached to the SSF (now 2 CMBG) staff in the early nineties, shortly after the new uniforms had been inflicted upon us. While strolling in to work one morning, I noticed that the two female Corporal pass-checkers at the entrance to the HQ building were dressed almost, but not quite, identically. Both were wearing dark green trousers, dark green "combat" sweaters, and dress green shirts, but with different rank insignia. One had the metal pin-on type on her shirt collar with plain green (no rank insignia) dress-type slip-ons on her sweater, and the other one had the dark-gold work dress rank slip-ons but no shirt collar insignia. Not knowing which one was wrong, I tracked down the Force Sergeant-Major and enquired about it. He said that it depended upon what trousers each was wearing. Rank insignia was determined strictly by the lower half of the uniform, which was the same colour in both cases but a different fabric and slightly different style, and completely independent of the upper half, which consisted of exactly the same shirts and sweaters. I expressed the illogic of this, and he just smiled and shook his head, and then told me about the previous week's Commander's O Group. He had paraded seventy-five soldiers through that, all in different orders of dress, to make that same point. He said that he could have shown almost twice as many variations, but ran out of available soldiers before he ran out of uniform variations.


----------



## Loachman (4 Oct 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> The dress pam officially calls the light blue uniforms "air force distinctive environmental uniforms" -- and that was the case even when we didn't actually have anything designated as an air force. Now that we do, maybe Royal Canadian Air Force distinctive environmental uniform is actually the proper name of the garments.



Why? Many people wearing it are not members of the Organization Formerly Known as Air Command. They are members of other commands, groups, and organizations including RCN and CA. If those people are not "RCAF", it is less than logical to refer to their uniforms as you suggest. That is why the term "environmental" is used to distinguish what are three different colours/versions of Canadian Armed Forces uniforms.

We still do not have an "air force" as is commonly understood internationally. The "RCAF" is an environmental command that generates forces, but which does not conduct operations overseas. CJOC, and prior to its creation, CEFCOM, does that part. Those are as much CJOC, or CANSOFCOM, or CFRG uniforms - and RCN and CA ones as well, because some members of those Environmental Commands wear them.


----------



## Rifleman62 (4 Oct 2012)

I know I need a drink after reading this.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Oct 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Then there was Base Dress for those with light and dark blue dress uniforms, and Garrison Dress for those with green ones. That meant that, for several years, the Army guys wore plain olive green combat clothing in the field, and a cheap polyester camouflage jacket on base, with the old dark green work dress trousers. The camouflage colours were selected to blend/co-ordinate with the trousers rather than any particular environment.
> 
> The trial version appeared in Germany during my time there. My first encounter occurred at the Mess at Happy Hour one Friday night, when a bunch of Vandoo Officers strutted in. That jacket had a different camouflage pattern (lighter and more natural colours than the final version) and olive green trousers (not adopted due to cost; there were tons of work dress trousers in the supply system). One of the teachers that we were plying with cheap booze asked who they were. "Canadians. Vandoos", said I. "Those are the new Garrison Dress uniforms". I only new that because I'd heard about them, and recognized the Vandoo flashes on their shoulders. "Oh", said one of the teachers. "That looks like something that Colonel Qadaffy would wear".
> 
> Another memorable uniform occasion: I was attached to the SSF (now 2 CMBG) staff in the early nineties, shortly after the new uniforms had been inflicted upon us. While strolling in to work one morning, I noticed that the two female Corporal pass-checkers at the entrance to the HQ building were dressed almost, but not quite, identically. Both were wearing dark green trousers, dark green "combat" sweaters, and dress green shirts, but with different rank insignia. One had the metal pin-on type on her shirt collar with plain green (no rank insignia) dress-type slip-ons on her sweater, and the other one had the dark-gold work dress rank slip-ons but no shirt collar insignia. Not knowing which one was wrong, I tracked down the Force Sergeant-Major and enquired about it. He said that it depended upon what trousers each was wearing. Rank insignia was determined strictly by the lower half of the uniform, which was the same colour in both cases but a different fabric and slightly different style, and completely independent of the upper half, which consisted of exactly the same shirts and sweaters. I expressed the illogic of this, and he just smiled and shook his head, and then told me about the previous week's Commander's O Group. He had paraded seventy-five soldiers through that, all in different orders of dress, to make that same point. He said that he could have shown almost twice as many variations, but ran out of available soldiers before he ran out of uniform variations.



What a gong show...

I remember those jackets from my childhood, my dad snagged a couple before they became a thing of the past.

What were they called again? Wasn't Helly Hansen was it? Something with a Klein in it? I don't remember, but to say the least, apparently everyone hated them and the whole Work Dress/Garrison dress fiasco. Glad we've gone away from that mess.


----------



## dimsum (4 Oct 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Why? Many people wearing it are not members of the Organization Formerly Known as Air Command. They are members of other commands, groups, and organizations including RCN and CA. If those people are not "RCAF", it is less than logical to refer to their uniforms as you suggest. That is why the term "environmental" is used to distinguish what are three different colours/versions of Canadian Armed Forces uniforms.
> 
> We still do not have an "air force" as is commonly understood internationally. The "RCAF" is an environmental command that generates forces, but which does not conduct operations overseas. CJOC, and prior to its creation, CEFCOM, does that part. Those are as much CJOC, or CANSOFCOM, or CFRG uniforms - and RCN and CA ones as well, because some members of those Environmental Commands wear them.



If another member of the ADF tells me again how "streamlined and efficient" we are, I'll show them this post.  That'll fix 'em.


----------



## xo31@711ret (4 Oct 2012)

Hey, I still have my 'cam work dress jacket'; I wear it this time of year in the bush cutting wood when it's a bit cool but not too cold. Crap, my last (and final) move 2 years I found my old 'bus driver work jacket x 2 and a dickie' which are now in pieces in the garage rag bin. 'Couse I couldn't wrap the old bus driver work dress around my upper leg let alone put it on. Can't believe I was ever that slim 30+ years ago....


----------



## quadrapiper (5 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Correct.
> 
> Now it is different.
> 
> For example, i wear the "air" DEU but for 11 months i was a member of ADM(IM), not the RCAF so my blue uniform could not be said to be an "RCAF" uniform as i was not a member of the RCAF.


And just to muddy the identity waters further, a message went out shortly after the name change extending the "RCN" identity to all personnel wearing that uniform. The RCAF, on the other hand, has not done this.


----------

