# Map symbol for OP



## 63 Delta (15 Aug 2013)

Can anyone tell me what the map symbol for a FN OP is. I cant remember for the life of me what the symbol is, and cant find it on the innerweb.

Thanks.


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## MikeL (15 Aug 2013)

I want to say a OP is a triangle, but I'd have to double check.


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## 63 Delta (15 Aug 2013)

Hmmm, thats what I thought it was too. 

We cant both be wrong can we...  ;D


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## George Wallace (15 Aug 2013)

http://www.military.com/ResourcesSubmittedFiles/Military_Symbols_Guide.pdf




https://www.google.ca/search?q=nato+map+symbols&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6nsNUtmhOvKq4APKhYB4&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1745&bih=841


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## ballz (15 Aug 2013)

An OP is definitely a triangle... what's the "FN" part for (forgive me if that's a stupid question, but it's not clicking)?


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## 63 Delta (15 Aug 2013)

FN: Friendly

EN: Enemy

Thanks for the response... I was positive triangle was OP, but just needed the nudge


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## ballz (15 Aug 2013)

Right, so a blue triangle for a friendly OP, with the branch indicator in the middle... I always thought "Friendly" was "Fr," now I'm confused


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## George Wallace (15 Aug 2013)

I always thought that FN was for Foreign National.


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## jeffb (16 Aug 2013)

I abbreviate friendly as FR but I guess to each his own right?


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## Franko (16 Aug 2013)

Friendly OP -blue triangle with a black slash through it from the lower left corner to the upper right side, bisecting it.

Enemy op - red triangle.

Suspect enemy op location - dashed lined red triangle.





			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Right, so a blue triangle for a friendly OP, with the branch indicator in the middle... I always thought "Friendly" was "Fr," now I'm confused



No need to put anything for a branch indicator, nevermind putting something in the center of a small triangle. An OP is an OP. Usually if there is a screen line, it will be noted by a large blue rectangle with the branch indicator in the center and the unit conducting the screen noted off the side in the usual designator areas. There will also be an S on both sides of the rectangle with arrows stemming from them to the extremities of the OP screen.


Regards


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## FJAG (16 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> No need to put anything for a branch indicator, nevermind putting something in the center of a small triangle. An OP is an OP. Usually if there is a screen line, it will be noted by a large blue rectangle with the branch indicator in the center and the unit conducting the screen noted off the side in the usual designator areas. There will also be an S on both sides of the rectangle with arrows stemming from them to the extremities of the OP screen.
> Regards


I think the branch indicator depends on context or whatever level of HQ you are working with and whether the tools are digital or a paper map trace. My background was arty and we always indicated OPs with branch indicators to differentiate at a glance arty FOOs, Bde Recce forces and infantry bn outposts all of which had different capabilities.


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## GnyHwy (16 Aug 2013)

Edited to add:  A triangle is not a proper icon for an (Arty) Op (my opinion).

The C/S, method of transport and size will further delineate.  As well as the position in battle i.e. a section size artillery icon, with wheels, forward in the battle will be a FOO.  Arguably, it could be a mortar section, but a mortar section will likely have a letter behind it, where as a FOO will only have a number i.e. G11,G12,G21, or G22 etc...

Confusing enough?  I convolute it further.  The triangle is a target in the RCAF.


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## GnyHwy (16 Aug 2013)

Use rectangles and diamonds.  The color and additional info will delineate.


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## Franko (16 Aug 2013)

I'm sure Arty does things a bit differently, however, Armd Recce doctrine and Infantry Recce doctrine are pretty close to being the same and are universally known at every HQ.

My examples are from Bde Armd Recce doctrine, which is what the hulk wants. 

Regards


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## George Wallace (16 Aug 2013)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Edited to add:  A triangle is not a proper icon for an (Arty) Op (my opinion).





			
				GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Use rectangles and diamonds.  The color and additional info will delineate.



Sooooooooo Wrong!

http://www.military.com/ResourcesSubmittedFiles/Military_Symbols_Guide.pdf

http://www.mpsotc.gr/dat/05CB6DCD/file.pdf   ...... pages 282 -283


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## GnyHwy (16 Aug 2013)

Oh well, the book is wrong.   ;D


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## myself.only (16 Aug 2013)

I would think.... looking at the above APP-6A from 1998 and then comparing it to the NBC OP sample provided on p. 14 of the B-GL-331-003 circa 2000, I'd think the triangle (presumably w dismounted recce crossbelt) OP symbol would go inside a (blue) rectangle that indicates Fr status.
(As opposed to the (red) diamond indicating En status).


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Aug 2013)

It's always been just a triangle, since the days I was marking them on clay tablets with a sharp stick. Blue for friendly, red for enemy. If the whole map is marked with one colour, put a box around the enemy one.


This isn't rocket appliances guys.

Anyway, NH gave the proper answer to the OP awhile back.


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## Franko (16 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's always been just a triangle, since the days I was marking them on clay tablets with a sharp stick. Blue for friendly, red for enemy. If the whole map is marked with one colour, put a box around the enemy one.
> 
> 
> This isn't rocket appliances guys.
> ...



...and seeing that I've taught on a "few" courses at the Armour School, I might just know what I'm talking about.

/sarcasm


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> ...and seeing that I've taught on a "few" courses at the Armour School, I might just know what I'm talking about.
> 
> /sarcasm



Do I have to bring out the ruler here?  :clubinhand:

Although in our case, being crewmen, a yardstick might better suffice ;D


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## cupper (16 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Do I have to bring out the ruler here?  :clubinhand:
> 
> Although in our case, being crewmen, a yardstick might better suffice ;D



What do you need the other 35 inches on the yardstick for? :nana:


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## ballz (16 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Friendly OP -blue triangle with a black slash through it from the lower left corner to the upper right side, bisecting it.



What does the black slash indicate?



			
				Nerf herder said:
			
		

> ...and seeing that I've taught on a "few" courses at the Armour School, I might just know what I'm talking about.
> 
> /sarcasm



Not trying to be hard to get along with, just that the Infantry School is teaching us differently. I wasn't taught anything with the black slash, and was always taught to use the branch indicator if that info was given. I would have thought all of this was pretty damn standardized but, I guess I should know better by now than to assume that :facepalm:


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## MikeL (16 Aug 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> What does the black slash indicate?



If I remember correctly, it means the OP is occupied.


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## George Wallace (16 Aug 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> What does the black slash indicate?
> 
> Not trying to be hard to get along with, just that the Infantry School is teaching us differently. I wasn't taught anything with the black slash, and was always taught to use the branch indicator if that info was given. I would have thought all of this was pretty damn standardized but, I guess I should know better by now than to assume that :facepalm:



The Black Slash is the indicator for RECCE


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## Franko (16 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly, it means the OP is occupied.



It would be a hash lined triangle for a proposed op, solid for occupied.

Regards


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## George Wallace (16 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly, it means the OP is occupied.



If the OP is occupied, the Triangle is solid.  If it is unoccupied, the triangle is dashed lines.  Look in the references I posted earlier in this thread.  They are the Map Symbol book and they explain everything.


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## MikeL (16 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If the OP is occupied, the Triangle is solid.  If it is unoccupied, the triangle is dashed lines.  Look in the references I posted earlier in this thread.  They are the Map Symbol book and they explain everything.



Ack, I'm going off a aide memoir I have and it conflicts a little with what you and Nerf herder are saying, etc.



			
				Nerf herder said:
			
		

> It would be a hash lined triangle for a proposed op, solid for occupied.
> 
> Regards



Out of curiosity is this a Armour School standard or NATO standard?

I just double checked my aide memoir(from the Inf School), and for OP it has

solid triangle OP
solid triangle with hash marks pointing outwards around it is a Combat OP
solid triangle with a line going from bottom left to the middle of the right side is a Occupied OP
plus the triangles with different symbols for NBC, listening/sensor, etc.


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## GnyHwy (16 Aug 2013)

.


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## George Wallace (16 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Ack, I'm going off a aide memoir I have and it conflicts a little with what you and Nerf herder are saying, etc.
> 
> Out of curiosity is this a Armour School standard or NATO standard?
> 
> ...



Those are right out of APP-6A, which is an American pub to NATO standards.  READ it and you will find all your answers.  The Armour School and all other Schools teach the same standards and will ref APP-6A.


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## MikeL (16 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The Armour School and all other Schools teach the same standards and will ref APP-6A.



Apparently not, at least not for the reference material. The aide memoir I have came off the course material website(DWAN) and was made by the Infantry School.

Looks like I'll be making a few amendments on the electronic copy I have.


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## GnyHwy (16 Aug 2013)

NATO symbol or not.  If I am controlling a BG map, I am using a blue rectangle, squad size and whatever arm indicator/CS/higher HQ is appropriate.  If this is a coy map, then use whatever you want, even their first name if you're air force.   

Whatever is decided, someone please tell the persons making the BMS software, otherwise we are FUBR'd.


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## Franko (16 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Apparently not, at least not for the reference material. The aide memoir I have came off the course material website(DWAN) and was made by the Infantry School.
> 
> Looks like I'll be making a few amendments on the electronic copy I have.



There was some issues a couple years ago between the three schools on some of the symbology used, seems there was some being made up by people who thought their way was the correct way. Even contacting some friends in the Int world to clarify some stuff lead to minor inconsistencies and it being passed on to students.

Again, minor issues that have been sorted out.

NATO symbology hasn't changed and Canada uses it. It's beaten to death at the Armour School and even to the point that some DS had to be retaught some to ensure the standard was adhered to for traces that students were being assessed on.

Also, some electronic versions are incorrect as they were more than likely made by civilian companies. I had brought a few issues forward to get remedied and it took a few months of almost constant follow ups to ensure it was done.

As for BG or Bde maps, who do you think gives the CPs and HQs their information? The Bde Recce assets.    

Regards


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## ballz (16 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The Black Slash is the indicator for RECCE



Sorry, I knew that, just had not ever been taught to use it for the triangle so it wasn't clicking in my head I guess. Seems sort of pointless to point out that an OP is "recce." In the infantry, it might not be the Recce Pl manning the OP. It seems like it would make more sense to have the branch indicator and the C/S next to it. 



			
				Nerf herder said:
			
		

> There was some issues a couple years ago between the three schools on some of the symbology used, seems there was some being made up by people who thought their way was the correct way. Even contacting some friends in the Int world to clarify some stuff lead to minor inconsistencies and it being passed on to students.
> 
> Again, minor issues that have been sorted out.



I'm not sure it's entirely sorted out at the schools, as of last summer and fall when I was a candidate anyway. There still seems to be some inconsistencies in what's being taught and what's in the publication...


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Aug 2013)

If I had to, and I don't  , I'd still use the same symbols as I posted above.

No person, Div HQ down, would have any problem understanding what I was trying to convey, with my simple little triangles.

People that try to overthink, add their own idiosyncrasies, add too much info, etc, to map boards, just make it really, really hard for the poor fucker that has to keep updating the map that most highers don't give a rat's ass about or even understand.

That's why guys like that get briefs. 

In most cases.

Some genuinely care and understand, but they're not everywhere..........................................unfortunately. 

Put a triangle down. They know where Regt X is, they'll know it's their OP.

Time to give this a rest, before some newb reads here and marks an OP with a square, slashed with an X, with wheels and three different Arms indicators.

WAIT! That sounds like an impromptu smoker!!!


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## myself.only (17 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Apparently not, at least not for the reference material. The aide memoir I have came off the course material website(DWAN) and was made by the Infantry School.



No doubt similar to the pub I was looking over.... with the *four* different frame shapes from 1999; squares are neutral, unknown is.... what was that?  Two crossed ovals?  Looked like what I do when I'm snowshoeing   

Anyway, good ol' Blue is friendly, Red or double-lines ain't... so much simpler eh? 
And if that's good enough for the Armour School then it works for me.


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## McG (17 Aug 2013)

A few map symbol references are floating aobut this site.


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## AJFitzpatrick (17 Aug 2013)

As a matter of pure pointless/pedantic/historical interest; when did Recce pick up/adopt the slash symbology?
 considering the slash was historically (at least until WWI {??}) used for Cavalry. 

 I can certainly see the association with the auxiliary role of scouting associated with the Cavalry but I'm interested if  the marginalization of Calvary in WWI to a scouting role (LSH notwithstanding) was the cause.


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## Good2Golf (18 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If I had to, and I don't  , I'd still use the same symbols as I posted above.
> 
> No person, Div HQ down, would have any problem understanding what I was trying to convey, with my simple little triangles.
> 
> ...



 :nod:

Heck, even as an Air/Avn guy, I know that an OP is a triangle, and can be further defined with functional indicators; recce, FOP, CBRN, cut outpost, etc...  I have never heard of Div/Bde/BG/CbtTm/etc... using a rectangle for an OP.  ???

...and I keep neither an APP-6A, nor a B-GL-331-002/FP-001 under my pillow.  


Regards
G2G


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## Journeyman (18 Aug 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...and I keep neither an APP-6A, nor a B-GL-331-002/FP-001 under my pillow*......anymore*


      ;D


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## jeffb (18 Aug 2013)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> I can certainly see the association with the auxiliary role of scouting associated with the Cavalry but I'm interested if  the marginalization of Cavalry in WWI to a scouting role (LSH notwithstanding) was the cause.



That trend actually happened long before the First World War. Cavalry in the US Civil War had the primary function, in both armies, of maintaining contact with the other side (recce). The secondary role was that of raiders. Usually, both sides dismounted their troopers in any engagement and the few examples of cavalry attacking "in the saddle" were almost always met with disaster. I'd cite the charge of Kilpatrick's troopers on the 3rd day of Gettysburg AFTER Pickett's charge as one such example although there are others 

To go with the original question though about why did recce adopt the map symbol for cavalry, I suspect that it ties into my earlier point. Dedicated recce that was not cavalry mounted really only became practical in the First and really the Second World War so it makes sense to me that the symbol would just carry over to describe the function rather then the particular method of recce. I'm generalizing here a bit as there was limited infantry based recce utilized by the Army of the Potomac through the Bureau of Military Intelligence but it's was the cavalry that was the primary recce force in that era.


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