# 'Jerk' Culture?



## cameron_highlander (10 Apr 2005)

Disclaimer: in no way am I suggesting that the CF become a 'candies and rainbows' type of organisation. 

We've all been there, walking around wearing that infamous 'cornflake' on our berets (or whatever was worn before that system came into place). And we all went through basic and (this is more to the reservists) had to endure parading with your unit wearing this cornflake and taking all the unecessary flak that came with it. 

In the reg force, you basically stay in the training system from BMQ to the end of your trades training, your always around fellow recruits wearing the same headdress, in general. But in the reserves, often you go do you BMQ/SQ in the summer and then have to wait another year to do your QL3, and in many units this means wearing and training in your cornflake. Or, if your doing your BMQ on weekends, you parade with your unit (again, on a unit to unit basis) on parade nights. 

Now, I understand that on your basic, your instructors can be jerks, thats what they do. Make sure you can hack the military life. No problem there. But what I take issue with is when (again, this is mostly a reserve problem) you parade with your unit wearing the cornflake and are treated like shite by everyone else simply because you don't have the regimental headdress yet. Get jacked up every 10 feet, get yelled at when you go to the QM for a legit reason, or the BOR, or anywhere else. Everytime its "who sent you up here recruit?? your not suppposed to be here". And when you explain ypur situation, again, your just brushed off because you are a recruit. Why do people feel the need to be jerks to recrutis for the sake of being jerks, when your not on course time. Same goes for PAT platoons, I've read stories on this board of PAT troops and Ocdt's being jacked up all the time, even one or two stories that speak positively of this practice. I understand that if your walking down the road, and see some Ocdts or recruits who have bad blousing, buttons undone etc, you stop them and correct them. But do walk around looking for a cornflake or RMC badge to yell at, thats unprofessional and makes you wonder what elese you should be doing with your time. 

This does not always happen, some reserve units are great at including recruits in everything. But I have seen enough and been treated like this enough (to the extent of getting yelled at by the Adj. for going up to the BOR to try to sort out my pay, even when I was sent up by my superiors, and the reason was simply because I had on a beret and cornflake, he didn't think recruits should go around trying to get paid, heaven forbid) to wonder if we have a sub-culture of jerks in the CF. There is a difference between being on course, and walking around on a parade night getting pissed on because your still a 'maggot'. Pretending recruits don't exist in a unit until they finish QL3, is, in my opinion, rediculous. Obviously, recruits aren't as well trained, qualified or have any TI, but still, what do you loose by including the recruits as much as possible as opposed to using them for verbal punching bags?


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## BKells (10 Apr 2005)

Is 871 a piper? Which Ottawa unit are you in?


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## Sig_Des (10 Apr 2005)

Piper.

I believe it does depend on your unit, and the people there. Acting like you don't exist until you do your 3s is BS, and if people are always crapping on you, that's not cool. Out of curiosity, is this widespread, or just certain individuals?

As for myself, When I finished BMQ/SQ last summer, they gave us our Cap badges, so no cornflakes here. But either way, in my unit, participation has been encouraged. As someone who hasn't done their 3's, I participated in several ex's, including Southern drive, down in the states, and have been welcomed by members of the unit. Of course you're ALWAYS going to catch some Confirmation Of Critical Knowledge  8), but that's to be expected anywhere. I've got people at my unit who show us what to expect, and treat everyone well. While you're current situation seems to suck, just be aware it's not widespread, and just think, You've only got to deal with it until you do your 3's


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## Michael Dorosh (10 Apr 2005)

It's called paying dues.   There is a difference between that, and hazing, as we've seen with respect to a thread involving the messes.

But I've done it myself, still do.  I don't know if it's right or nott, depends on the matter of degree.   I issue out clothing to new soldiers.  I try and remember to welcome them to the Regiment, and tell them the correct way to wear the stuff, as well as explain some of the regimental quiffs of ours and the significance of such.  

But I also recall being treated like that as a recruit, and then as a piper in the band.  I took it in stride, and after a year or so, found that I was accepted.  And looking back, I don't blame anyone for treating me with less than open arms.  Because after my phase of asking stupid questions and not knowing how to do things, I was "indoctrinated' for lack of a better word.  And now after 18 years am at the point where I've heard 15 generations of first year soldiers asking and doing the same stupid stuff, and it is something every one goes through.  Even the most patient NCOs that I looked up to - the ones you KNEW were always looking out for the new soldiers - even they will be rough and gruff on occasion.  Part of the game.

Don't think I treat anyone openly disrespectful, that's not what I'm talking about.  But 2332Piper, you'll be the same way with 5 or 10 years in, and will look at it as natural.  Not disrespect, but just the attitude that the older hands don't have as much time for you as you would like.  I still go out of my way to be helpful, but not openly friendly.  

I wouldn't take it too seriously, and would try and weather the storm - by next year, you will find your storm was just a drizzle.


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## Glorified Ape (10 Apr 2005)

I've never had problems like that. I had my fair share of getting jacked, but that was on course. I've never been jacked up at the base I report to for sorted and sundry administrative stuff (forms, dental appointments, etc), but then again it's much more lenient than St. Jean. Kinda funny, I actually got saluted (ocdt. - I guess the single solitary bar looked thicker than usual) and it scared the crap out of me. I've seen the kind of people you're talking about on course, though, who have so few subordinates that they take great pleasure in abusing those that they do. You'll always get jerks that enjoy messing with you simply because their rank says they can. I suspect they're liked about as much by their peers as they are by the people they're jacking up since lamers like that tend to show their colours to everyone in a very short period of time. 

When you're finished training and have your badge, you can politely correct the people (of your rank, of course) that are busy messing with the recruits for kicks. Do it in front of the superiors that have the same bad habit and maybe they'll get the message.


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## Britney Spears (10 Apr 2005)

> When you're finished training and have your badge, you can politely correct the people (of your rank, of course) that are busy messing with the recruits for kicks.



This is most certainly a bad idea. Have you ever seen an instructor correct another instructor of equal rank in front of reruits? Trust me, you'll both look like idiots. It is very bad form, and you'll hear about it if you try. 

Those of equal rank do not correct each other in front of subordinates, regardless of whether you are a Cpl or the CO.


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## Rfn (10 Apr 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> When you're finished training and have your badge, you can politely correct the people (of your rank, of course) that are busy messing with the recruits for kicks. Do it in front of the superiors that have the same bad habit and maybe they'll get the message.


Glorified Ape:
I don't reccomend that. If you have a problem with one of your peers, talk to the fellow in private. DO NOT cut someone down in front of your superiors (no matter how politely its done). Your peer will think you are a blade, your superior will think you are a goof, and they'd be right.

If you feel you really must "send a message" I find the direct approach works best. Ask to see your superior in private, look him in the eye and say whats on your mind. 

Piper, to echo what was said already, don't worry so much about it, the cornflake is a lightning rod for scorn.

remember: water off a ducks back, in one ear and out the other and all that. You will look back on this period with humour (and embarrassment, ie "I can't believe what a bag I was...")


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## Rfn (10 Apr 2005)

Whoops, wrote while Britney posted. ;D


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## Cliffy433 (10 Apr 2005)

When I still had my cornflake, my Det Comd (Sect 2i/c), escorted me to the pay office to get my pay sorted out.   So I've never experienced anything like what you describe.   However, I also ensured that anytime I get sent anywhere in a new unit/org/bldg, that I have the name and rank of the person who sent me and why firmly imbedded in my mind.

Gone are the days when the phrase, "You know you can't budget on Reserve pay, you'll get it when you get it!" is acceptable.   BTW, I was actually told this once, when I hadn't been paid one red cent for a 3 week ex, over a month after end-Ex.   Yet, you can still expect some "curt" treatment - no one should be seeking out a cornflake to jack-up, but we are all taught that every snr mbr is responsible for the 3D's of everyone jr to them.   I believe the RCR say it best, "Never pass a fault."   

There is nowhere in the regulations that says I have to say, "Please button your pockets", but they do say they have to be buttoned.   You can expect people to be "less friendly" when they correct you until you have your trade badge, but for a first-time fault, there's no reason to not be civil.

Probably, part of the problem is an OR is an "Operations Zone" and there can - and will - be items to see, hear, etc that are none of your business.   It is the duty of all personnel with access to an OZ to ensure that only people who have business there are there, all others are escorted, or escorted out.


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## Glorified Ape (10 Apr 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> This is most certainly a bad idea. Have you ever seen an instructor correct another instructor of equal rank in front of reruits? Trust me, you'll both look like idiots. It is very bad form, and you'll hear about it if you try.
> 
> Those of equal rank do not correct each other in front of subordinates, regardless of whether you are a Cpl or the CO.



I didn't say to do it as an instructor. The impression I got was that every one and their dog at his reserve unit, not even during course, was crapping on the recruits for no apparent reason. And I didn't say to do it in front of subordinates, I said to do it in front of superiors with the same habit - not to curry favour with superiors but to shame them indirectly. 

Bad form, I know, but stupid crap like that really irks me. When I saw Ocdts giving crap to newer recruits, I'd give them crap right then and there. I can't stand people that have no empathy and like to give people crap for no other reason than some sense of innate superiority. That's no way to treat people and, *while I know you're right*, I have a hard time believing people that show that little respect should be treated any better than they treat others. Jack someone up, fine - but do it for a reason, not because you believe their cap badge isn't on par with your own. 

I hope to god that if I ever do something as stupid as that, as an officer, that some Warrant or Sgt.Maj. will lay the proverbial smackdown on me for all to see.

EDIT:


			
				Rfn said:
			
		

> Glorified Ape:
> I don't reccomend that. If you have a problem with one of your peers, talk to the fellow in private. DO NOT cut someone down in front of your superiors (no matter how politely its done). Your peer will think you are a blade, your superior will think you are a goof, and they'd be right.
> 
> If you feel you really must "send a message" I find the direct approach works best. Ask to see your superior in private, look him in the eye and say whats on your mind.
> ...



You're right. Like I said, that stuff just REAAAAAAAAAAALLY pisses me off.


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## Infanteer (10 Apr 2005)

http://www.hackworth.com/gloverjohns.html

From my favorite little "Leadership Principles" list:

*13. Yelling detracts from your dignity; take men aside to counsel them.*


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Apr 2005)

This stuff is interesting.

I remember when I was a recruit in the militia, everyone always had a field day with us, playing practical jokes or just jacking us up because they could.  As time went on, I discovered that many soldiers were doing it to get their kicks and not to help the recruit improve.

I later became in charge of all recruits coming into the unit and I was able to control the situation a bit better.  I made it clear to all the ranks in the unit that the recruits in holding platoon belonged to me and they were not to have any communication with them.  If they noticed something wrong with them, they were to let me know and I would fix the problem.  I also told the recruits to come to me and the other assigned troop handlers with any problems and not to go to just anyone in the unit.

The reason I did this was to instill into them the concept of the the chain of command, as this was their first experience with such a thing.  In addition, I wanted to make sure that the unit turds who have been in for years and still can't master lacing their boots, did not give the new recruits misguided information or show them how to do things the wrong way.  I also wanted to make sure that the unit members understood how important to the unit the new guys are and how they are not there to be abused or hazed in any way.  It takes a lot of effort to get new recruits in and I don't want them to quit because they think the militia is just a hazing factory and not a professional organization where they can make a contribution.

Although some may think this is being all too nice, it's not.  In this day and age of harrassment complaints and the like, the last thing you want is some recruit filing a complaint about what he has interpreted as hazing.  The house comes down on everyone when that happens.  Recruits will have their day in the sun at basic training where games will be played on a daily basis.  Now...in the Marines, they treat you like gold until you get to Parris Island and then....well...I forget what happens but It can't be too nice because I've blocked it out...duh...Thought I'd give my two cents worth.

PJ D-Dog


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## Britney Spears (14 Apr 2005)

> I remember when I was a recruit in the militia, everyone always had a field day with us, playing practical jokes or just jacking us up because they could.



That may have been true in the old army(not sure how far you go back), but nowdays recruits are handled exactly as you had done, it's SOP and taught on all leadership courses. If some know-it-all CFL tries to correct a recruit without first informing the recruit's handlers, he will be in more trouble than the recruit and he knows it.

Who knows? Maybe they picked it up from you, being the trailblazer you are..... ;D


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## muskrat89 (14 Apr 2005)

> I remember when I was a recruit in the militia, everyone always had a field day with us, playing practical jokes or just jacking us up because they could.



Britney - I was THERE, and ol PJ didn't have it THAT bad.....


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## Britney Spears (14 Apr 2005)

I don't know what to believe anymore.....


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Apr 2005)

Thanks Muskrat89...now my credibility is shot...I'll have to find another forum to be part of...duh...you are right, it was not that bad but it changed a lot over the years.

PJ


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## muskrat89 (14 Apr 2005)

Come to think of it, I was there, but can't remember if I specifically instructed any of your courses. Let's just say that I like to think I wasn't a part of any of that crap


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Apr 2005)

You taught me the C-9 and for all intensive purposes, you said I passed.  Hope this helps.

PJ


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## BKells (15 Apr 2005)

'intents and purposes'

intensive purposes does not make any sense.


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## Infanteer (15 Apr 2005)

BKells said:
			
		

> intensive purposes does not make any sense.



You are supposed to capitalize the first word in a sentence.


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## Britney Spears (15 Apr 2005)

Further more, "intensive purposes" makes perfect sense. It means purposes that are intensive.


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## Foxhound (15 Apr 2005)

But "furthermore" should be one word.  ;D


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## Michael Dorosh (15 Apr 2005)

If you infantry guys keep correcting each other's spelling and grammar, I'm going to start posting about how to assault a trench.


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## Britney Spears (15 Apr 2005)

This is an excellent demonstration of <a href=http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/G/Go/Godwins_Law.htm>*Gaudere's Law*</a>



> Any post made to point out a spelling or grammar error will invariably contain a spelling or grammar error.


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## PJ D-Dog (15 Apr 2005)

Ok, all of you have just been signed up for the Grammar for Marines and Spelling for Marines MCI course.  That should make us all better spellers and grammarians. ;D


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## Cliff (16 Apr 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> It isn't usually unit policy to ignore recruits, although it sometimes seems that way. My unit gives you 90% of your unit headdress 'gear' after BMQ/SQ, and those guys participate as full members of the unit (this is from my own observation, I'm not on the floor).
> 
> However, I have heard of some units being ignorant towards recruits. But my main point was towards the individuals who seem to take offence to having recruits around, most units are good about it but there seems to be a noticible percentage of people in the CF who treat recruits like a disease to be avoided at best, crapped on at worst. I don't know, maybye I'm just noticing it more then other people. But I thought the point of basic training was that everyone did it, everyone was there and everyone knew what it was like.
> 
> Just something to consider.



Recruits have always been treated like dirt. It could also get physical years ago, but that's probably changed. I remember getting my butt kicked on more than one ocassion  Cap badges were usually worn after General Military Trg (the only cornflake I remember was by Kellogs).


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