# Preparing To Join



## Cycophant (30 Jun 2003)

First, I‘d like to thank all the contributers of this forum.  Your many posts, guides and opinions have helped me immensely in preparing for my own attempt to join the Canadian Forces.

To start off, my situation:  I have chosen to attempt to join the Canadian Forces in the Infantry field, as a Full-Time soldier.  I plan on handing in my application to the local Recruiting Office in approximately 3 weeks.  I can (barely) meet the minimum physical requirements, currently.  I feel these 3 weeks, coupled with the months it very well could take before anything occurs with my application, will allow me the chance to improve my fitness enough.  Would others agree with this choice of action, or would you suggest I simply hand the application in ASAP, since it could take upwards of a year anyway?

Here‘s my question:  Do any members of these forums have some advice to give this "pre-soldier" (I hope) before I begin the process of joining the Forces?  I‘ve heard that some suggest investing in a good pair of running shoes, since you require some for Basic Training.  As well, I‘ve heard of purchasing a quality watch (I‘ve also heard the suggestion of buying a cheap one, since it will break either way).  Other than obviously improving my fitness level any chance I get, is there anything else I can do to help my entrance to the Forces go that much better?  Any help or advice _at all_ is highly appreciated.

One final concern:  When I first began thinking of joining the Forces, it seemed all I heard was that they were fairly desperate for recruits and signing up would be fairly straight-forward (albeit slow, perhaps) and easy.  The recruiter seemed to put forward this idea too.  However, the more I read, the more it seems that there is actually a backlog of recruits, and that in order to join, I would have to be chosen by the Recruiting Office as a better candidate than possibly hundreds of others.  I worry my candidacy is in Jeopardy, for two reasons.  

One, although I know myself to be well-educated and intellectual (comparitively.  I try to avoid an ego of any variety    ), I fear my lack of formal education (I have Grade 10, the minimum requirement) could seriously ruin my chances.  Does anyone agree that this is a problem, or not?

Two, I‘m eager to begin the application procedure as quickly as possible.  The sooner I can join and begin Basic, the better, I feel.  However, the earlier I hand in my application, the lower my Physical Fitness will seem.  Will this be another factor in terms of the competition for open spots?  Or can I update it as I become more fit?  Or do they simply use the numbers achieved during the Fitness Test they administer during the application procedure?

Sorry for the long-winded message - for those who have made it through the message, thanks for any help you can give me


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## Cycophant (1 Jul 2003)

Add-On:

Ignore the part asking about watches/etc.  Another post in another forum has given me the answer I need for that.

I also have noticed that "comfortable running shoes" are listed in the Kit to bring to Basic.  However, I‘d like to know exactly how often they are used.  I own a pair of shoes that would work for walking reasonable distances around the base.  But for any sort of running/jogging exercise, I imagine they would be useless.


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## nULL (1 Jul 2003)

You know, I had that very same question that you did; is there going to be a waiting list? The answer I got was leaning more towards the "yes" side. Still, the more I thought about it, I realized the wisdom in their decision. Perhaps by making a backlogged waitlist, they make it so that potential recruits want it "more" and aren‘t doing it as a spur-of-the-moment decision; still, if they don‘t call me soon, it‘s going to set me back several months....more time to do pushups i guess    


(And yeah, it IS a good board eh? Discovering it way back in March was the reason I decided I wanted to join the reserves....you?)


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## Thaedes (1 Jul 2003)

It‘s like any company, they (DND) only wants the best on their team.  So yes, your physical capabilities and your education will be factors in selection.  They aren‘t particularly hard pressed for recruits right now, so having only the bare-minimum for both will drag you down a bit.  Scoring really well in the CFAT will help to counter this though.  Obviously, if you do extrodinarily well on the CFAT your no dumbsh*t loser, but someone who likely hasn‘t been using their potential fully.  

Also, any medical conditions will be taken into account as well, especially for any combat arms trades.  People more prone to injury/sickness, etc are more likely to get put back further on the list.


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## Infanteer (1 Jul 2003)

> They aren‘t particularly hard pressed for recruits right now


Boy, I can tell you‘ve never seen our infantry battalions.


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## Etown (1 Jul 2003)

Hey Cycophant

I wouldn‘t worry too much about getting in. First off, the backlog of recruits is more due to a lack of instructors for training than a reduced need for people. 

Second, just from reading your post I doubt you would have too much trouble with the CFAT or impressing the recruiter. The education thing isin‘t a big deal. Getting a good score on the CFAT is much more important. 

Just don‘t ask me for advice on the CFAT.
 *start rant* Last thing I need is some punk kid dropping arty rounds on my head because his math score was overrated due to writing a bunch of practice apptitude tests when in reality he couldn‘t add the fingers on both hands together without a calculator. *end rant*

As for the physical part, my recruiter didn‘t seem too concerned with the scores. Basically once you‘ve met the basic standards your training will push you up to where you need to be (his words). Of course he did want to know what training I was doing on my own.

Honestly if you put everything into getting in and are patient enough to wait during the application, baring any unforseen medical condition, you should have no problems.

Oh yeah, buy some good shoes now, and start a running program. You don‘t want to have to leave basic due to shin splints do you?


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## Bert (1 Jul 2003)

Cycophant

I know you‘re anxious to get into the military, but if you can‘t really meet the physical fitness requirements for the fitness test, take all the time you can to get into better shape.

Theres several things in BMQ that require fitness conditioning.  The milestones are a fitness test in the third or fourth week, a week long camp out in the boonies, the navigation of an obstacle course and a 13-15 km ruck march at the end.  This is of course added to various courses, academics, PT sessions, and periods of minimal sleep where your VO2, stamina, strength, personality and guts are tested.  Its physical, but its also a test and development of mental strength.  

For physical training, I recommend you join a club and pump out (everyone will have an opinion here).  A full body program that includes, biceps, triceps, chest, upper and lower back, abs, quads, hams, and calves.  With this, mix in a running and aerobics program.  Learn about VO2 MAX. Do this about 3 to 5 times a week 2 hours a day for as long as you can before BMQ.   It will help you prepare the strength and VO2 conditioning needed for the fitness test and BMQ.

Shoes are a good thing.  For PT sessions, the shoes are used for long runs and gym work.  The combats come out for field work, obstacle courses, marches, and alot during the second half of BMQ.

You can‘t be kicked out for having shin splits/calf pain or else everyone in every BMQ troop would be out at some point.  Physical discomfort will be companion though.  Every recruit will have to suck it up and continue on running or walking.  You can‘t fail if you don‘t run X kms in Y minutes but in the third and fourth week, a fitness test is provided.  If you‘ve meant the original fitess requirements, the PT given over the time will ramp you up to a level you should be able to pass.  Its more about the drive and willingness to try and do it than it is about ability.

As E-Town wrote, there is lack of instructors due to various deployments.  Also, the application process and entry into BMQ will be affected by training and scheduling or it the member gets downstream.  After BMQ, there are MOC related courses.  The scheduling of the BMQ is best done when the MOC training is available after.  So, the entry into BMQ may be delayed due to the scheduling of MOC or QL3 type courses later on.
Postings have to be figured out with the assumption the recruit passes BMQ.  Its a complicated process for everyone.

The CFAT is an aptitude estimation of a recruit‘s
ability and does relate to what the MOCs the CF will offer to the recruit.  We are never told the results of the test.  Its better to practice and make sure you can answer general questions in the time allowed.  This is a good link for practice aptitude tests:  http://www.jobs.gc.ca/menu/ui_examinfo_e.htm 

What you can‘t answer, identify it, gets some help, and figure it out. If you choose a MOC requiring extensive academic training, then preparing for the CFAT is greatly in your best interest.

Good luck man.

E-Town, whats the rant about?  I don‘t think any NCO or OIC would put a punk kid or someone fresh from QL3 in charge of artillery targetting.  A person develops over time.  Don‘t worry about it.
Thats was Sergeants are for.


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## Cycophant (1 Jul 2003)

> *start rant* Last thing I need is some punk kid dropping arty rounds on my head because his math score was overrated due to writing a bunch of practice apptitude tests when in reality he couldn‘t add the fingers on both hands together without a calculator. *end rant*


I know precisely where you‘re coming from.  Although it would seem the CFAT is a good starting block, intelligence tests should perhaps be a little more "involved".  After all, although it doesn‘t take much intelligence to use a weapon, it takes a fair bit to use it responsibly.

Well, I‘ll definitely invest in a good pair of shoes, then.  I just wanted to be assured that I wouldn‘t spend $80-$90 on a pair of shoes that I‘ll only use for 2 months, then never touch them again in the CF.

@Null:  Good points.  I can see the merits in making people wait, as much as I am eager to begin   As for the boards, I‘ve pretty much already made my decision.  But I‘m glad I recently stumbled across these forums, because it‘s given me a lot more insight and help before I "jump in".

Thanks for everyone‘s help.


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## Bringer (1 Jul 2003)

Your CFAT score will factor into your position on the merit list, but your physical test will not. I was worried about my physical because I jacked my shoulder up a few days before and was finding pushups to be quite painful and wasn‘t sure if I would be able to manage the minimum, much less my normal maximum.

The recruiting officer assured me that the physical test is simply to make sure you can do the minimums required and wasn‘t looked at beyond that factor.


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## Cycophant (1 Jul 2003)

Thanks for the extensive post, Bert.

Luckily, after reading a few good posts on this forum a week or so ago, my anxiousness has been put aside a little.  I‘ve replaced it with a desire to not be the slowest and weakest in BMQ.  So, I‘m going to delay starting for 3 weeks, and just _hope_ that my application process takes about a good month or two.

I joined a Gym about 2 months ago and have been going regularily (at least 2x a week, sometimes 3) to build up my strength and endurance, as you‘ve mentioned.  Unfortunately, I was in fairly pathetic shape to begin with, so I‘ve had, and still have, a long road ahead of me.  A part of the challenge of the Forces that I love.

And now I‘ll _definitely_ invest in a quality pair of running shoes.


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## Etown (1 Jul 2003)

Bert: The rant is in response to the continued questions on this board about how to study for the CFAT. The CFAT is an aptitude test and as such, studying for it makes its measurements totally invalid. Since the score on this test determines what trades you are eligible for false results are not good for the army.

 The sample questions that the CFRC gives you are to


> familiarize you to the CFAT as well as reduce any test nervousness or anxiety you may be experiencing


The reason they don‘t want you to be nervous is so that you don‘t go out and study and screw up the results. It‘s also the same reason that they make you sign an agreement saying you wont discuss what‘s on the test with anybody; so you don‘t screw up the results.

Now I know that no kid off his QL3 is going to be in charge of artillery targeting, that‘s not really what I was getting at. My point is that people who study for the CFAT might end up qualifying for an MOC for which they have no natural aptitude. Perhaps the hyperbole used in my rant was a little over the top but I‘d rather be safe than sorry.


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## Dire (1 Jul 2003)

E-Town.

I did post about help on the CFAT but it doesnâ€™t make me a stupid kid.

Iâ€™ am nervous about tests, been that way since High School. The reason Iâ€™ am so worried is because I havenâ€™t done High school math since, well High School.

Iâ€™ am totally qualified for my MOC; I took a Network Integration Specialist Program at a trades school which I achieved my MCSE/MCSA and CCNA all of which are very tough certificates to get. When I took the tests I failed one because I froze. I studied hard for it but since it was timed with trick questions my brain let me down on that test    I made it up the next 20 tests though so Iâ€™m not a complete dumbass when it comes to pressure.

I just wanted help on what to get myself ready for. Long division, dividing fractions, and that kind of stuff. Since the CFAT is timed and the problem solving is a 30 question in 30 min test it got me worried. I donâ€™t want to mess this one up due to being nervous. Since I probley take longer to do a problem then some people.


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## austin (2 Jul 2003)

isn‘t the objective to go into your trade and
learn about it, just because you study and score high on your CFAT you are not pulling a wool over the sheeps eyes, but rather bettering your chances at getting that opportunity. the competence of that person can fully be evaluated by trainers and their adaptation to the training they receive, not soley on the aptitude test.


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## Dire (2 Jul 2003)

thats very true Austin..


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## Bert (2 Jul 2003)

Austin

I suspect thats what you believe and not what you know.  A poor CFAT result will disqualify NCM candidates who are "non-skilled" as opposed to "semi-skilled" or "skilled" from certain trades at the time of application.  

If the application is attempted at some future time, the CFAT could be written again and the candidate re-evaluated.

In my opinion, I agree with you.  The CFAT result should not dictate what a person is or his/her potential.  It is an estimation of a person‘s ability in several contexts only.

In high school I really sucked at math.  After few years working, I went to college and got into electronics of all things and did really well.  It was math intensive and a different attitude got me a honours GPA.

I think in the trades that are academic intensive like the electronics trades, Aerospace Control Ops, Communicators, Sig Ops, etc, the CF wants to put non-skilled members into a training program where they know the member will be successful.  The POET and QL3 programs are intensive, rushed, and not a lot of time for screwing around.  The CFAT gives them an indication of a person‘s suitability only, not potential.


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## Dire (2 Jul 2003)

So Bert, what your saying is if I do somewhat poorly on my Problem Solving of the CFAT and im considerd a skilled applicant (being MCSE/MCSA should qualify me for being skilled or at least semi-skilled) there is a chance that they will take me?


Thats good news    I suck at math, I suspect I should do alright on the Verbal and Spaital questions but might have some problems on the problem solving


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## Bert (2 Jul 2003)

Hehehe.  I was re-reading some of the posts here and we‘re all newbies.  I bet some of the real CF members here reading the thread are laughing at us.

Anyways, for those of us that are newbies, we‘re all in the application process at one stage or another.  We lived our lives so far and some of us are going to write the CFAT test shortly.  Our experiences, education, personal gumption (whatever that is), and a bit of luck will give us the whetherforall to write the test.  What will be will be.

Like what was said before, don‘t get nervous about the test.  Its better to prepare for it so you know what you may need to focus on and get used to a test that may be timed.  This link is valuable for practice:

 http://www.jobs.gc.ca/menu/ui_examinfo_e.htm 

Just do them.  The practice problems that you face here, identify them, understand what you need to do to figure it out whether its the type of question or limit of time, develop a stradgy, re-do the test again and again and succeed.

Practicing on the government tests isn‘t cheating or altering the results of the CFAT.  This is active problem solving by preparing for something we don‘t participate in often.

Who passes, fails, meets or exceeds results on the CFAT isn‘t our concern.  The staff that directs a member through his career, the troop, NCOs, and commanders will make sure the member gets to where he should be or told to be.  They‘ll be responsible for who should or shouldn‘t be doing something.  For the recruit to think about stuff like that, its just beyond our control.

The CFAT isn‘t that bad.  The old stradegies as a kid or student in high school applies.  Prepare, don‘t get nervous, don‘t be too serious, relax, and just do it. 

Don‘t get stuck on the CFAT.  Other stuff happens later on.  I went to DNDHQ in Ottawa for my fitness test and while waiting for the elevator,
7 female Corporals, some in Navy, Air Force, and Army uniforms stood right beside me.  Man, THEY WERE ALL BEAUTIFUL..  I‘m not joking! Truthfully, I never expected females in the military to be... beautiful.  I‘m standing there looking at them, and then they turn around and start looking at me looking at them. They weren‘t smiling either.  Let me tell you the temperature rose in that corridor for a few uncomfortable mintues.  Beautiful Military CYBORG WOMEN!

I apologise to any female CF member on the forum 
but stuff happens in the application process.


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## Bert (2 Jul 2003)

Dire

From my understanding, during the application process, the CF identifies you as a non-skilled, semi-skilled, or skilled candidate.

The non-skilled recruits are the ones out of high school or have no other education or certifiation out of high school.  They start off as privates after BMQ and go on to QL3 and MOC training before getting a first posting.

The semi-skilled recruits are those that have college diplomas, certifications, or papers giving them an equivalent to a majority or all of the MOC training or QL3.  The semi-skilled nature is the civilian education or certified experience in their chosen MOC.  The recruits still write CFATs, go to BMQ, and start in advanced QL3/MOC training.

Usually, the CF will take some time to investigate your education and experience to determine "non" or "semi" skilled. 

The skilled recruits that have previous military or military MOC experience and often by-pass BMQ.

The skill-set of the recruit is identified in the application process, usually this is discussed at the time you meet the Recruiter for the interview. 

As for whether the CF will accept the MCSE/MCSA certification for a direct equivalent for a MOC or for semi-skilled status, I really don‘t know. 
Guarenteed its a plus; computer apps, networking, configuration, LANs, WANs, and the hardware that goes with it is certainly good stuff.  

The CFAT results have weight, but to what degree we don‘t really know.  The additional stuff a recruit may have like certifications, trade papers, diplomas, degrees would add to MOC suitability and skill set.


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## Etown (2 Jul 2003)

> I did post about help on the CFAT but it doesnâ€™t make me a stupid kid.


Really now, when did I call you stupid? 

Perhaps you should read my post before trying to make me look like an a**hole.


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## kremey (18 Jul 2007)

Hello.  I'm not a member of the Armed Forces (sorry!) but I'm desperate for some answers.  Since you guys are in the Forces, I thought you'd be the best people to ask.  My husband is joining the military and I'm desperate for information pertaining to military wives and support and just a glimpse of what I'm in for.  I refuse to deny him his dream but I would like some info.

Again, sorry for posting here because I'm not a member of the Armed Forces but any advice and/or help would be greatly appreciated.


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## misfit (18 Jul 2007)

The CFAT is easy. Practice some math though before you go in just to have it fresh. If you pass the medical, and you make it to the interview for infantry, you WILL get selected if you want to. 

The PT for basic is a no brainer. Get off you ass and run a few times a week. Do a few sets of 25 pushups a day, maybe throw in some situps and you`re laughing. 

Nobody cares about your grade 10 education either. That`s not a factor in selection. The CF is hurtin for more combat troops.


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## Mike Baker (18 Jul 2007)

kremey said:
			
		

> Hello.  I'm not a member of the Armed Forces (sorry!) but I'm desperate for some answers.  Since you guys are in the Forces, I thought you'd be the best people to ask.  My husband is joining the military and I'm desperate for information pertaining to military wives and support and just a glimpse of what I'm in for.  I refuse to deny him his dream but I would like some info.
> 
> Again, sorry for posting here because I'm not a member of the Armed Forces but any advice and/or help would be greatly appreciated.


Use the search function on here. There is a tonne of information to read, especially in the Home Front board. 

Cheers,
Mike


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## kremey (19 Jul 2007)

Thanks for the help Mike.  I've done some research and I now feel better about him joining.  If only I could join too...


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## freeze_time311 (19 Jul 2007)

misfit said:
			
		

> The CFAT is easy. Practice some math though before you go in just to have it fresh. If you pass the medical, and you make it to the interview for infantry, you WILL get selected if you want to.
> 
> The PT for basic is a no brainer. Get off you *** and run a few times a week. Do a few sets of 25 pushups a day, maybe throw in some situps and you`re laughing.
> 
> Nobody cares about your grade 10 education either. That`s not a factor in selection. The CF is hurtin for more combat troops.



I would like to think that this fellow who was asking these questions in July of 2003, has long since found the answers. But I like your style.


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## tree hugger (19 Jul 2007)

kremey said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help Mike.  I've done some research and I now feel better about him joining.  If only I could join too...



Go for it!  The more the merrier!


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