# Bosnia and Kosovo: More Pomeranian grenadiers needed as peacekeepers?



## MarkOttawa (9 Nov 2007)

Things are getting complicated:

All eyes on Kosovo, but Bosnia can prove greater threat to Balkan stability
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/09/europe/EU-GEN-EU-Bosnia.php



> As the West tries to solve the future of Serbia's breakaway province of Kosovo, another related, and perhaps more dangerous threat to European security is lurking in the background — a possible disintegration of Bosnia, officials and analysts warn.
> 
> The ethnically divided country is in turmoil, with Bosnian Serbs protesting reforms proposed by the top international administrator to boost the power of central institutions.
> 
> ...



While in Bosnia itself:

Fundamentalist Islam Finds Fertile Ground in Bosnia
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,516214,00.html



> The Dayton Peace Accords called for the removal of foreign combatants from Bosnia after the Balkans war. But hundreds of mujahedeen fighters stayed, and today they are successfully spreading their fundamentalist Islamist views...
> 
> Wahhabism is quickly gaining ground in the country, with polls showing that 13 percent of Bosnian Muslims support the conservative Sunni Islam reform movement. The movement is financed primarily by Saudi Arabian backers, who have invested well over a half-billion euros in Bosnia's development -- especially in the construction of over 150 mosques. The 8,187 square meter (88,124 square foot) King Fahd Mosque in Sarajevo alone cost €20 million ($29 million), and it's also where radicals go to pray...



Mark
Ottawa


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## time expired (9 Nov 2007)

Sorry,the modern version of the Pomeranian grenadiers (Bundeswehr)
are not interested.Fortified vacation camp in A-stan,and Mediterranean
cruises off the coast of Lebanon are quite enough, thank you.Have you
thought of asking the Americans?.
                             Regards


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## MarkOttawa (9 Nov 2007)

time expired:  Well there might be some Pomeranians with 235 Germans now in Bosnia:
http://www.euforbih.org/eufor/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=145&Itemid=62

Plus amongst the over 2,000 in Kosovo:
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL02234114

Mark
Ottawa


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## time expired (9 Nov 2007)

MarkOttawa
                True enough ,but I would not depend on them participating
if the lead begins to fly.My opinion is based on my day to day observation
of the political debate here in Germany concerning any deployment of 
troops.I am afraid the days of Bismarck's Pomeranian Grenadiers,are for
better or worse, over.
                                  Regards


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## The Bread Guy (10 Nov 2007)

Lotsa recent rumblings in the last week or so, indeed.....

"Among the greatest risks is that Kosovo’s ethnic Albanian majority will declare unilateral independence next month from Serbia, prompting Bosnian Serbs to hold a referendum on independence for their half of Bosnia, known as the Serb Republic.  The Serb Republic’s secession, and the reaction of the Muslim-Croat federation, which comprises the other half of Bosnia’s territory, would be especially dangerous because of the growth of privately held arms caches, diplomats said."

"As many as 10,000 Bosnian Serbs gathered on 29 October across Bosnia's Republika Srpska entity to protest a recent decision by the international community that in some parts of the country is seen as much-needed reform, but here is seen as another attempt to strengthen state institutions at the expense of Bosnian Serb autonomy."

"Croatian President Stjepan Mesić has weighed in on the ongoing crisis in Bosnia ....  A week into the political turmoil caused by reactions from Banja Luka and Belgrade to High Representative Miroslav Lajčak's latest measures, Mesić told Croatian Radio that the Republic of Srpska (RS) leadership wished to see disintegration of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

"Bosnian Prime Minister Nikola Spiric resigned Thursday in protest at an international envoy's decision to impose EU-backed reforms, deepening the country's worst post-war political crisis.  "I have submitted my resignation to Bosnia's presidency," Spiric, an ethnic Serb, told journalists.  Spiric said he was forced to make the move because of changes introduced last month by Miroslav Lajcak, the international community's High Representative to Bosnia.  The envoy's measures, aimed at improving the efficiency of Bosnia's central government, provoked outrage among Serb leaders, who said they would diminish their influence at the federal level and allow for Muslim domination."


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## Edward Campbell (10 Nov 2007)

This is a *European* problem and one of the _Eurogroups_ (EU, Council of Europe, etc) *should* be willing and able to step in and resolve it.

If, as I suspect it will, NATO fails in Afghanistan then it may need to take on the Balkans in order to be relevant to anyone for anthing. The advantage of withdrawal to the Balkans is that the _Eurotrash_ can ask the North Americans to do the heavy lifting* while they criticize from the safe sidelines.


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* I reiterate what I have said before: the problem is not the European soldiers - the Italians and Spanish are, man for man, just as brave as their American and Dutch counterparts and the French and German generals are no worse than their British and Canadian counterparts. The problem is that the European peoples have decided that combat operations are not for them, unless and until they can see (clearly) that their vital economic interests are threatened.


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## George Wallace (10 Nov 2007)

Looks like teething problems to me.  European Nations who didn't traditionally partake in UN Peacekeeping in the past are now deploying out of the safety of their homelands and taking on the roles of peacekeeper/peacemaker.

Perhaps this will be the "Make or Break" of the EU desire to create and maintain a Euro Corps?  Will they be strong enough and coordinated enough to maintain the peace in their own corner of the world, so that they can venture out and assist in other parts of the world.?  Changing times.  New and inexperienced players entering the game.  How else will they learn the ropes?


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## X-mo-1979 (10 Nov 2007)

I wonder why we didnt remove the very saudi looking "citizens" from places like czin (spelling)when we were there.It was also common knowledge that the huge mosque in sarajevo had extreme literature for sale by its front gate.

Everyone I talked to about Bosnia agreed it would slip back when we left,and it sure looks that way.At least Croatia got their stuff together.


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## The Bread Guy (10 Nov 2007)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The advantage of withdrawal to the Balkans is that the _Eurotrash_ can ask the North Americans to do the heavy lifting* while they criticize from the safe sidelines.



Canadian national caveats, anyone?   

Maybe that's Ruxted-worthy - what should CAN do if (or when) Kosovo/Bosnia/Serbia blow up?



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I wonder why we didnt remove the very saudi looking "citizens" from places like czin (spelling)when we were there.It was also common knowledge that the huge mosque in sarajevo had extreme literature for sale by its front gate.



It sounds like they're trying, but given that many are now Bosnian citizens, and an-already tinderbox environment in Bosnia from OTHER issues begging for one more disgruntled group (one with proven mayhem-making skill sets) to tip it into madness (again), it may not be so easy to turf 'em.

_- edited to fix spelling mistake -_


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## Brad Sallows (10 Nov 2007)

For once, let Europe move its own latrines.  If Europe can't manage this crisis, it will be fair to essentially ignore European criticism of other interventions in future.  The entry price of criticizing foreign interventionism is the will and ability to do so oneself on occasion.


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## MarkOttawa (10 Nov 2007)

time expired: Quite.  My use of "peacekeepers" in the title was a tad ironic, even sarcastic.

E.R. Campbell: Of course the main problem in Europe is the politicians--and the people who vote them in (as in Canada).  Democracy sure can make some things hard, but...

Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (15 Nov 2007)

Kosovo's prime minister threatens UDI:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010866



> The Kosovo status process is reaching its natural conclusion. The present negotiations come to their appointed end on Dec. 10. This will create the atmosphere for a positive and collaborative declaration of independence and prompt recognition by the international community...
> 
> Kosovo alone will declare its independence, but in an atmosphere of international satisfaction that serious negotiations have been taken as far as possible, and of a clear commitment from Kosovo to reconciliation and regional stability. This will be a very multilateral independence.


  

Russians (and Serbs) are not happy at the prospect:
http://www.eubusiness.com/news_live/1195050721.76



> The international community should allow Serbia and Kosovo to reach a solution on the Serbian province's status by themselves without setting a date for an end to negotiations, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said here Wednesday.
> 
> "We have to understand clearly that the two sides alone have to come to a solution," Lavrov told a joint news conference with his Slovenian counterpart Dimitrij Rupel.
> 
> ...



What a mess.

Mark
Ottawa


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## Edward Campbell (15 Nov 2007)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Kosovo's prime minister threatens UDI:
> http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010866
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, goody!

Let's have the French and Germans and Russians sort this one out. They made the original mess.


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## BF1 (15 Nov 2007)

time expired said:
			
		

> MarkOttawa
> True enough ,but I would not depend on them participating
> if the lead begins to fly.My opinion is based on my day to day observation
> of the political debate here in Germany concerning any deployment of
> ...


During the entry into Kosovo in 1999, the Germans were aggressive and quickly dominated their AOR.  Don't underestimate their reaction to a territory such as Kosovo which could easily become sympathetic (more sympathetic?) to radical Islamic elements who would love a secure launching point in Europe for operations against European nations.  Added to this, it is open source knowledge that Kosovo is a major transhipment point for Heroin coming from SE Asia into European markets. We have to keep in mind that the Kosovar view is that the UCK liberated Kosovo with the help of NATO, but also remember that the UCK was listed as a terrorist organization prior to the 1999 NATO offenxive.


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## Reccesoldier (15 Nov 2007)

Whats in it for Canada?  Kosovo and Bosnia have practically no meaning for us.  We have not been attacked by the UCK or the MUP, here in Canada and we don't share a border with either of them. 

There is for all intents and purposes no danger of an ideologically driven fanatical group rising up in either one of those enclaves to strike out at the world.  Bosnian Muslims are not cut from the same cloth as some Middle-eastern ones as the failed attempts of the Mujahadeen to stir up fundamentalism during the Balkans war proved.

We've got no dog in this fight, North America should sit back and watch, no matter how ugly it gets.


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## Edward Campbell (15 Nov 2007)

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> ...
> We've got no dog in this fight, North America should sit back and watch, no matter how ugly it gets.



I agree.

It is time for Europe, broadly, to stand up for itself. This is a serious problem *within* Europe and big, rich, sophisticated Europe *must* be up to the challenge or it must collapse into a pile of stinky brown stuff.

There is no reason for anyone in North America to do anthing except shake their heads in dismay and, maybe, smile behind their hands.


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## ggranatstein (15 Nov 2007)

I recently had the honour of serving in the Muslim part of Bosnia (Una Sana Kanton). The Wahabi influence is over-stated. Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) are smart people, they'll take money from whoever is willing to give to them. The B Serbs use the threat of Wahabis to foment their political base. When they get stirred up, well, it stirs up the Bosniaks as well. The situation in Kosovo is not helping. It's ALL politics and IMHO, the politicians are to blame ENTIRELY.

Two anecdotes:

1) In the town I was working (Bihac), a Saudi Prince commissioned a $1 million madrassa and mosque. He sent over the plans and the cash - it was to be built to exact specifications. He came for the grand opening some time later. He was quite happy, but asked the locals who built it- "Where's the second floor?" The Bosnian contractors (all Muslims) had managed to siphon off a whole floor's worth of money... Moral:The religion isn't important for them, it's about the $ and feeding their families.

2) EVERY SINGLE person I spoke to felt that if peacekeepers left, war would break out. Having EUFOR there is good - but they do not trust the Europeans. They actually (in my area) trust Canadians a great deal. There are hard feelings against the Dutch, Germans, French, etc, but not the Canadians. They trust us and feel that we don't have any bias, precisely because we're from so far away.

Anyways... my two cents... I grew to love that country and it's people. I'd go back in a heartbeat if it would prevent another war.


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## armoured recce man (15 Nov 2007)

Maybe but i remember a small village around Travnik were you could virtually think of you're self as being in A'stan (burka and all) and if i recall we arested one guy which passport wasn't Bosnian (think more Iranian ) that wasn't really please with our presence overthere,and when the Brits search is house they've found some cool ( and dangerous ) stuff , that village is not far from the babanovatch ski station which is really nice. and Yes some of them are in it for the money and families but remember that Bihac is not home for radicalism but some part of bosnia is


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## MarkOttawa (18 Nov 2007)

Kosovo UDI Dec. 10?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cc980382-95d8-11dc-b7ec-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1



> Former guerilla leader Hashim Thaci claimed victory in Kosovo’s parliamentary elections at the weekend and said that he would declare independence “immediately” after December 10, when internationally mediated talks on the province’s future status are set to conclude...
> 
> “Immediately after December 10, Kosovo’s institutions will declare the independence of Kosovo,” he said in his victory speech a few hours after polls closed...
> 
> The US and most European Union member states say independence under EU-led supervision would be the best way to stabilise the whole troubled West Balkan region. But Serbia’s ally, Russia, blocked the detailed pro-independence transition plan at the UN Security Council earlier this year, shaking Kosovo Albanian leaders’ confidence about waiting for the international community to resolve the status question...



The bigger picture:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2212854,00.html



> At the heart of the gathering crisis is the future status of Kosovo. The military intervention there in his first term is widely seen as Tony Blair's 'good' war - as against his 'bad' one in Iraq. The West acted to save persecuted Muslims. There was no dodgy dossier or mention of weapons of mass destruction. There was no oil at stake. Though there are these obvious differences, there is also a common lesson from Kosovo and Iraq. Wars are much easier to win than the peace. Intervention can be effective - as it was in Kosovo - in preventing the slaughter of civilians. Military action can remove dictators, as that conflict helped to trigger the removal of Slobodan Milosevic. But once a war is over, it is politics that has to deliver an enduring settlement.
> 
> Eight years after Nato drove out the Serbian forces, the future of Kosovo is still contested. Europe has a massive stake in getting this right. Apart from the threat of renewed conflict, most of the overland drug and people trafficking routes go through the Balkans. Islamist terrorism is another reason for anxiety. The Balkans have been a training ground for jihadists. The European Union's long-term plan is to extend membership to all the ex-Yugoslav states, binding them into democracy, the rule of law and prosperity. Failure to peacefully resolve the future of Kosovo could be catastrophic and yet it is hard to see how success can be achieved.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (19 Nov 2007)

German views:

'Peace in Kosovo Was Never More than a Ceasefire'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,518186,00.html



> Former guerilla leader Hashim Thaci has won elections in Kosovo and says he intends to declare independence by December. German commentators say that could mean that war is on the horizon.
> 
> The initial results indicate that the PDK won 34 percent of the vote, eclipsing the moderate League of Democratic Kosovo (LDK) which only won 22 percent of the vote.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## The Bread Guy (23 Nov 2007)

A bit more news to throw into the mix on the UN extending EUFOR's mandate...



> *Security Council extends EU Force in Bosnia and Herzegovina for another year*
> UN News Centre, 21 Nov 07
> Article linik - UN Security Council news release
> 
> ...



... as well as those pesky Muslims in Bosnia...



> *Foreign Jihadis Face Deportation in Bosnia-Herzegovina*
> Anes Alic, Jamestown Foundation Terrorism Monitor, 8 Nov 07
> Article link
> 
> ...


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## MarkOttawa (25 Nov 2007)

One of those "present at the creation" is pessimistic--note NATO points:

Back to the Brink In the Balkans
_By Richard Holbrooke_
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/23/AR2007112301237.html



> At a most inopportune time, the Balkans are back. On Dec. 10, the U.S.-E.U.-Russian negotiating team tasked with getting the Serbs and Albanians to agree on Kosovo's future status will report to the United Nations that it has failed. A few weeks later Kosovo's government will proclaim that Kosovo is an independent nation -- a long overdue event.
> 
> The United States and most of the European Union (led by Britain, France and Germany) will recognize Kosovo quickly. Russia and its allies will not. Kosovo's eight-year run as the biggest-ever U.N. project will end with great tension and a threat of violence that could spread to Bosnia.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## tomahawk6 (25 Nov 2007)

The UN is stuck on stupid. They have had this mission since 1999 - and we arent any closer to a solution.
Holbrooke is a democrat who served in the Clinton administration so its hardly a surprise that he would attack the Bush administration. What he doesnt dwell on is that 9-11 and the GWOT has put Kosovo on the backburner. Second, Kosovo has been a UN responsibility since 1999 and they seem to be stuck on stupid with no solution in sight. Kosovo should be a EU responsibility with troops from the EU assuming security responsibility.The US has no national interest in the Balkans and we need to get our troops out so they can be used elsewhere.


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## MarkOttawa (28 Nov 2007)

Oh, oh:

Russia 'very alarmed' by Kosovo situation: agencies
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=204417



> MOSCOW - Russia Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Wednesday described the situation in Kosovo as "very alarming" and said Moscow did not accept Western claims that independence for the Serbian province was inevitable, Russian news agencies reported.
> 
> *"We cannot accept the incantation that this is a unique case, that independence is unavoidable,"* [emphasis added] he said, quoted by Interfax and ITAR-TASS.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (29 Nov 2007)

Time seems to be running out:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=8ce16c92-7569-49cf-98fa-315c959bf746&p=2



> LONDON - The threat of a new war in the Balkans loomed yesterday after the collapse of talks between Serbs and Albanians over the future of Kosovo.
> 
> Three days of negotiations overseen by international mediators broke down with both sides refusing to budge over their claims to the breakaway province.
> 
> ...



Then there's this rather gruesome view of the situation:
http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSN28278931



> Predicting tough times ahead, the NATO commander in Kosovo called on Wednesday for clear guidance on how his force should act if the Serbian province declares independence as expected.
> 
> French Lt. Gen. Xavier de Marnhac also said the problem of tense relations between Kosovo's ethnic Albanian majority and Serb minority would eventually reach a "biological end" as the average age of the Serbs was much older...
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## Reccesoldier (29 Nov 2007)

Shhhh, don't try to distract the world from the evils of what "Amerikkka" is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq to point out the looming ethnic meltdown in the backyard of the peoples States of Europe.


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## MarkOttawa (30 Nov 2007)

Brits getting ready:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2219593,00.html



> Britain yesterday offered to be the first Nato country to send extra troops to Kosovo within weeks, as the Conservatives and Balkan experts warned of a potentially violent crisis brewing.
> 
> While David Cameron accused the Kremlin of stirring up trouble in the Balkans and warned of a new crisis by Christmas, Gordon Brown's government also risked Russian wrath by issuing a robust statement of support for quick Kosovan independence.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## The Bread Guy (5 Dec 2007)

Rest o' NATO too...

*Troops in Kosovo placed on heightened alert * 
Territory moving toward independence 
Associated Press (US), 5 Dec 07
Article link


> NATO's chief said Tuesday that his forces are prepared to respond to violence in coming weeks as the breakaway territory of Serbia prepares to assert its independence.  Gen. John Craddock said that plans include the possibility of quickly boosting the 16,000 NATO troops currently in Kosovo.  "I think that there will be those who want to create mischief and that will be manifested as strife, potentially violence in Kosovo," Craddock told reporters at the National Press Club.  The comments come as talks between leaders from Kosovo and Serbia appear stalled ahead of a Dec. 10 deadline to report to the United Nations. Although the southern province formally remains part of Serbia, Kosovo has been run by the U.N. and NATO since 1999, when the Western military alliance ended former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic's crackdown on ethnic Albanian separatists.  Ethnic Albanians, who make up 90 percent of Kosovo's 2 million people, insist on independence. Serbia has offered broad autonomy but insists the southern province remain part of its territory.  Leaders in Kosovo have said that they will soon declare their independence.  Reflecting the degree of concern for an organization that is also responsible for leading military operations against the insurgency by the Taliban and other groups in Afghanistan, Craddock called Kosovo "the most volatile issue confronting NATO today."  Craddock said that he believes pledges by Kosovo's leaders that they will work to prevent violence. He said that NATO will be prepared to work with police in Kosovo to shut down any paramilitary group that tried to assert authority in the territory ....


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## retiredgrunt45 (7 Dec 2007)

> I agree.
> 
> It is time for Europe, broadly, to stand up for itself. This is a serious problem within Europe and big, rich, sophisticated Europe must be up to the challenge or it must collapse into a pile of stinky brown stuff.
> 
> There is no reason for anyone in North America to do anthing except shake their heads in dismay and, maybe, smile behind their hands.



+10 Mr. Campbell, as usual very well said and if I may add, the point of the "brown stinky stuff", well that put the icing on the cake. thank you. ;D


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## MarkOttawa (7 Dec 2007)

NATO trying to cool Kosovars' jets:
http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/07-12-2007/102457-nato_kosovo-0



> NATO peacekeeping forces should be ready for handling violence in Kosovo, as province’s leaders seem to fight for their independence after a failure of negotiations.
> 
> "We will act resolutely against anyone who seeks to resort to violence," said alliance Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer as he opened the meeting of the 26 NATO nations.
> 
> ...



As for the Serbs:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3013628.ece



> The prospect of a new Balkans conflict came closer last night after Serbia made threats of “war” with the breakaway province of Kosovo.
> 
> After a four-month peace initiative failed to resolve the fate of the disputed territory, European diplomats, and even the Pope, made fresh appeals for Serbs and Albanians to avoid violence.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (8 Dec 2007)

More on NATO preparations:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/07/europe/kosovo.php



> SKENDERAJ, Kosovo: NATO commanders in Kosovo say they are ready to shut down any violence in the wake of the province's expected secession from Serbia. The scorched frescoes and shattered roof tiles at the Serbian Orthodox monastery of St. Joanikije testify to how difficult that task might be.
> 
> It was less than four years ago that the drowning deaths of three Albanian boys sparked rioting against Serbs that ended with 19 people dead and more than 30 churches and monasteries across Kosovo destroyed or damaged. Attackers torched St. Joanikije just outside Skenderaj, despite the presence there of NATO peacekeepers.
> 
> ...



A lengthy piece on how things are seen in Serbia is here:
http://199.246.67.249/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/LAC/20071208/DOUG08/Columnists/commentColumnists/commentColumnists/1/1/6/

And twisting and turning in terms of the UN:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=e538c0c7-2274-486b-b22e-7366d9495830&p=1



> NATO nations pledged yesterday to provide enough troops to put down any violence as Kosovo heads towards a declaration of independence from Serbia, expected within weeks.
> 
> Britain, France, Germany and Italy urged fellow EU states in a letter to accept that negotiations on Kosovo's future had been exhausted and that the time had come to settle its status -- without United Nations backing, if necessary.
> 
> ...



This is from Resolution 1244 [pdf]:
http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/1244.pdf



> 19. [The Security Council] Decides that the international civil and security presences are established for an initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless the Security Council decides otherwise;



So the NATO interpretation appears literally correct. However staying on if Kosovo declares an independence not authorized by the UNSC seems a very dicey way to go to me. Just like the 1999 NATO attack itself on Serbia, also not UNSC-authorized. 

Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (8 Dec 2007)

A sensible thought from British General (ret'd) Sir Mike Jackson who commanded KFOR and was Chief of the General Staff:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/12/09/do0906.xml



> My last - somewhat heretical - thought is that perhaps the international community's aversion to boundary change should be re-examined in this case. The largest concentration of Kosovo Serbs live north of the River Ibar, adjacent to Serbia proper. This small area was transferred from Serbia to Kosovo only 40 years ago. A restoration might have merit...



But what then of the Republika Srpska in Bosnia?
http://www.maplandia.com/bosnia-and-herzegovina/republika-srpska/
http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Europe/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina/Republika_Srpska/TravelGuide-Republika_Srpska.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## Reccesoldier (9 Dec 2007)

Don't forget that the Serbs consider Kosova Polje (the field of crows) as the birthplace of Serbia.  

Never underestimate the power of popular myth to make people irrational. :threat:  

Especially in that part of the world!


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## fraserdw (12 Dec 2007)

We should never involve ourselves in continental affairs again.  Let Europa sort it out.


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## fraserdw (12 Dec 2007)

No offense, my comment was intended to state that we have been cleaning up Euro-crap since 1914.  It is time the the height of civilisation put it's house in order so we can help the developing world put it's house in order.  Our future national success is in Asia and Africa in this century not in Europe, Europeans have the treasure and the people to fix their own problems and that should finally be made clear to them.


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## fraserdw (13 Dec 2007)

Well I am not much of fan of Europe, as I am a Canadian Nationalist and an anti royalist.  My feeling is they can solve their own problems alone AND contribute to the mess the they made in Asia and Africa.  I, especially, feel that the French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, British, Spanish and Portgeuse (SIC!) MUST do this as they are the former colonial powers who brought all this enlightenment to the third world in the 19th century.  The US and the Russians, same again, as they were the 20th Century colonial powers.  In short, if your dog goes on the neighbour's lawn you are responsible for the mess until it is put right.


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## MarkOttawa (15 Dec 2007)

EU preparations (if only they'd do the same for Afstan):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/14/AR2007121401842.html



> European Union leaders on Friday pledged 1,800 police and administrative officials to Kosovo, part of a package of aid and diplomacy intended to facilitate a well-choreographed, quick and peaceful march to independence for the breakaway Serbian province.
> 
> The E.U. government heads, meeting at a summit in Brussels, stopped short of pledging to recognize Kosovo if its leaders declare independence, fearing that such a declaration and an endorsement by the 27-nation bloc could provoke a nationalist backlash in Serbia ahead of elections early next year. Some analysts have warned that ethnic violence might resume.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## fraserdw (15 Dec 2007)

Roger that, but it was just announced by the EU that Serb EU membership is on hold and independence is not an option right now.  Personally, independence is only likely to prime the powder keg, we are better off with a Cyprus type solution except without the topless Swede tourists on the sunny beaches!!!!  Topless Serb grannies on the river side maybe......??????


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## MarkOttawa (20 Dec 2007)

UNSC gives up:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/world/europe/20nations.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin



> The Security Council signaled Wednesday that it would not be able to resolve the status of Kosovo, the breakaway Serbian province, and that a solution would have to come from outside the United Nations.
> 
> John Sawers, the British ambassador, emerged from a closed Council meeting to say that what he had heard inside from Vojislav Kostunica, the Serbian prime minister, and Fatmir Sejdiu, the president of Kosovo, “underlined just how enormous the gulf is between the two parties.”
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## fraserdw (23 Dec 2007)

Fools!  The UN or the EU and especially NATO should not be in the business of "liberating Tribes" within National Borders.  Now we just spread the misery and add more seats at the UN General Assembly.  Which nation will enter into a defense pact with the new nation ....against a defense pact of Serbia and Russia.  Here comes the cold war and MAD and basement bomb shelters again!


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## The Bread Guy (17 Feb 2008)

It appears more than JUST the Pomeranians are getting edgy this weekend...

Nationalists rally in Belgrade against Kosovo independence, Associated Press, 16 Feb 08:  "Hundreds of Serb nationalists staged a noisy rally Saturday in downtown Belgrade to protest Western support for Kosovo's bid for independence.  Some 1,000 protesters waved the Serbian flag and chanted "Kosovo is the heart of Serbia" outside the embassy of Slovenia, which holds the rotating EU presidency.  A cordon of police ringed the embassy and a dozen vans filled with riot police were parked on side streets around the embassy and the capital's only mosque. No incidents were reported ...."

British troops ready to be deployed to Kosovo before independence, Kuwait News Agency, 16 Feb 08:  "British troops were ready to head to Kosovo after violence erupted there before the independence of the region which would be announced tomorrow (Sunday).  A spokesman for the Defense Ministry stated that about 600 soldiers from the First Welsh Battalion would head to Kosovo if violence did not cease, adding that the troops would join 15,000 NATO troops there which is under the leadership of Kosovo Force (KFOR).  He indicated that military officials saw that the number of current troops deployed in Kosovo did not meet with current situation, affirming that the UK was committed to the peace and security of the Balkan region.  The situation in Kosovo required NATO to be more flexible to meet challenges posed by the violence amid the announcement of independence, indicated the spokesman ...."

EU nations approve policing mission for Kosovo, Constant Brand, ASSOCIATED PRESS, 16 Feb 08:  "A day before Kosovo is expected to declare independence, European Union nations agreed Saturday to send a 1,800-strong mission to Kosovo to help the fledgling state build its police force and judiciary.  The mission will include 700 police officers, as well as judges, prosecutors and other legal experts, to help the ethnic Albanian leadership with security, legal and customs issues after Kosovo breaks away from Serbia ...."

US will work to prevent Kosovo backlash, JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press, 17 Feb 08:  "President Bush said Sunday that the U.S will work with its allies to try to prevent violent clashes after the anticipated declaration of independence by Kosovo.  Kosovo is expected to declare its independence from Serbia on Sunday, a move that has outraged Serbia and its ally Russia, which has warned it would set a dangerous precedent for separatist groups worldwide.  "The United States will continue to work with our allies to the very best we can to make sure there's no violence," Bush said in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, during his five-nation tour of Africa.  "We are heartened by the fact that the Kosovo government has clearly proclaimed its willingness and its desire to support Serbian rights in Kosovo," he said.... "

KFOR's Who's Who (as of 4 Feb 08) - "Placemat" With Who's Where (.pdf)


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## MarkOttawa (18 Feb 2008)

A guest-post at _Daimnation!_:

Kosovo(a?): Putting our government in a pickle
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/010873.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## geo (18 Feb 2008)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....
Mr Duceppe feels this is great & that we should recognize their right to seceed from the Serbian federation....
which translates to... it should be OK for Quebec to seceed and, should they ever do it, all the other countries around the world should say "that's OK" and rush to recognize the new independant state.  The fact that conditions in Kosovo are very different from what fellow Quebeckers have to live with seems to have been completely overlooked.

Mr Dion feels there is nothing wrong with recognizing Kossovo independance..... shouldn't he think before he speaks?


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## Yrys (18 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Mr Duceppe feels this is great & that we should recognize their right to seceed from the Serbian federation



Yep, but he don't tell often that if Quebec ever get independent, he would not  recognize any part of Quebec
 who would want to go back to Canada, as some aborigenals or West Islanders sotimes say they will want...

He never explain correctly why he has a double standard....


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## geo (18 Feb 2008)

Ahhh... that's why he wears a hairnet.


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## MarkOttawa (19 Feb 2008)

The Consequences of Kosovo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/18/AR2008021801545.html


> ...
> In fact, watching the crowds celebrate Saturday night in the streets of Pristina, I wondered there isn't a deeper lesson here for other would-be neighborhood bullies. Milosevic's stated goal was, after all, the greater glory of Serbia (he had other, unstated goals as well, such as the perpetuation of a communist-era power structure; but never mind). Spouting Serbian nationalism, he helped turned Serb minorities across Yugoslavia into mini-militias. They, in turn, inspired the creation of other mini-militias -- Croatian, Bosnian, Albanian and others -- which began fighting one another in a series of small, nasty wars.
> 
> You can fairly accuse me here of oversimplifying this chronology, but I think it is nevertheless correct to say that the result of this activity -- discrimination, ethnic cleansing, warfare -- was a complete disaster for Serbia. The Serbian economy went down the tubes; the Serb dominance of ex-Yugoslavia evaporated; Belgrade, the Serb capital, was bombed. Now Serbia looks set to be dismembered as well: Some European countries and the United States have recognized Kosovo's independence, something that wouldn't have happened two decades ago. Milosevic the super-nationalist -- the would-be leader of a revived, powerful, successful Serbia -- damaged no country nearly so much as he damaged Serbia itself.
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## Mike Baker (21 Feb 2008)

BREAKING NEWS: Serb protesters attack U.S. embassy


(CNN) -- Angry demonstrators protesting Kosovo's independence from Serbia attacked the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade on Thursday, throwing rocks, breaking windows and setting fires.

Serbian TV showed someone trying to set fire to the U.S. flag at the embassy, which was closed and unstaffed when the masked protesters attacked.

Riot police fired tear gas at the rioters and lines of armored vehicles were on the streets. 

U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said; "We are in contact with the Serbian government to ensure that they devote the appropriate assets to fulfill their international obligations to help protect diplomatic facilities in this case."

Kosovo declared independence last Sunday and the United States was among the first countries to offer official recognition of its split from Serbia.

Bratislaw Grubacic, chief editor of VIP magazine in Belgrade, said police reported 32 people injured, including 14 police officers.

Teresa Gould, a translator for Belgrade TV, said the Croatian Embassy next door also was attacked. Police quickly rounded up the demonstrators, witnesses said.

The violence was part of a much bigger, peaceful demonstration where up to 150,000 people chanted 'Kosovo is Serbia," and vowed to never accept the province's independence.

Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, who earlier addressed the peaceful rally, said "Kosovo is Serbia's first name." He called the declaration of independence last Sunday illegal and said will do all he can to get it annulled. 

State railroads provided free transport to protesters, and schools across the country were closed Thursday for the "Kosovo is Ours" rally in the Serb capital, The Associated Press reported.  Watch the Serb protests »

Tensions also erupted at the Kosovo border checkpoint in Merdare -- about 50 kilometers (30 miles) northeast of Kosovo's capital Pristina -- as several hundred Serbian army reservists clashed with NATO-led peacekeepers and police, AP said.

Photographs showed demonstrators, many of them wearing their reservist uniform, hurling rocks and setting tires alight to create a wall of smoke before they charged past the checkpoint shouting "Kosovo is ours! Kosovo is Serbia.

U.N. police said the demonstrators had come by bus from the Serbian town of Kursumlija and were largely army veterans who had fought with the Serbian side in Kosovo's 1998-1999 war, AP reported.

Following the clashes, the demonstrators dismantled and returned to the Serbian side of the checkpoint, according to AP.

Meanwhile several hundred Bosnian Serbs rallied in the Bosnian city of Banja Luka and in the Sarajevo suburb of Lukavica, AP said. 

Students in Lukavica were seen waving Serbian flags and singing Serbian patriotic songs while police in Banja Luka were stopping demonstrators from marching on the U.S. consulate there. 

The breakaway region has been recognized by the U.S. and several EU nations including the UK, France and Germany but the government in Belgrade maintains that Kosovo is a part of Serbia.

Amid simmering tensions in northern Kosovo, home to most of the region's Serb minority, there were fears that Thursday's rally could spill over into violence, as was seen at the Merdare border crossing, following attacks by Serb nationalists on western targets in Belgrade including the U.S. embassy earlier this week.

The U.S. Embassy in Belgrade advised American citizens to stay away from the gathering, warning that "businesses and organizations with U.S. affiliations may serve as focal points for these demonstrations."

"We wish to remind American citizens that even demonstrations intended to be peaceful can turn confrontational and possibly escalate into violence. American citizens are therefore urged to avoid the areas of demonstrations, and to exercise caution if within the vicinity of any protests," a statement said.

On Thursday, Italy became the latest European nation to recognize Kosovo's sovereignty, AP reported.

"The recognition of Kosovo's independence does not take away anything from our closeness to Serbia," Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi told reporters.

Russia and China continue to oppose Kosovo's declaration of independence while Spain has expressed concern that recognition will give momentum to secessionist movements in other countries, such as the Basques in northern Spain.


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## geo (21 Feb 2008)

Hmmm... The balkans are heating up...... Where's the Archduke when you need one ???


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## tomahawk6 (21 Feb 2008)

I have to say that the US should not have recognized Kosovo its a huge mistake and has the strong possibility of Serbia taking Kosovo by force thereby putting NATO troops there in a tough spot. Should the Serbs take the military option I dont see NATO trying to stop them.  The US/NATO doesnt need this flashpoint now.


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## geo (22 Feb 2008)

Ayup!
Regardless of what happens, a lot of people are about to get their shorts tied up in knots over the things happening over there.
The match has been lit & the powder keg is in place... anyone want to prophesize what happens next ?


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## geo (22 Feb 2008)

Is that with or without the torched US Embassy in Serbia?
Also - remember, the Russians are backing the Serbs... I think that things are as messy as they appear to be.


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## fraserdw (22 Feb 2008)

The one thing that no one is mentioning here is that this is all contrary to the UN Mandate in Kosovo.  The US and UK have decided to ignore the UN and support a mission that is not backed by the majority of the UN (boy, this sounds very much like.......like........Iraq).  Therefore the UN mission will be pulling out leaving the 20 members of the next coalition of the willing to break their promises and extract themselves a few years down the road when things get to tough.  Lets hope Canada is not there at the that time!


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## tomahawk6 (22 Feb 2008)

UN Security Council Resolution 1244 has governed Kosovars since its inception, 8 years ago. It was up to the UN to figure out how to go forward. During that time nothing happened. The Albanian majority took it upon themselves to resolve the impass by declaring independence. Everyone knew the Albanian Kosovars were gioing to take this step. Kosovo as an entity isnt viable it needs to be part of either Serbia or Albania not some limbo.Its unfortunate that the Bush administration decided to rush recognition without thinking through the consequences. Russia is going to side with the Serbs and this puts the Kremlin and Washington on a collision course that is avoidable. The only question is what will be the cost war in Kosovo or Russian interference in the ME or helping Iran further its nuclear weapons program. The latter certainly cant be good for Russia's long term interests. Putin will make Washington pay a price and its one that we could have avoided simply by not recognizing Kosovar independence.


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## fraserdw (26 Feb 2008)

I think this is the true legacy of peace-making with peace-keepers.  In effect we use UN troops to take territory away from a nation without any "Marshall Plan" for after the war.  After a decade of occupation the UN, US and Europa were happy with a solution, any solution.  We have not then and not since addressed the root causes of the fears at the base of these societies.  They are all dirt poor post communist states where deceit was a way of life and no one has grown up with any real values or resepct for anything of any importance so they stick to tribalism as if it was a religion.  The real solution would be to divide the the whole of the former Yugo into about 250 states each with a Europa security force to protect it from it's neighbours and then to transfer 7 million European jobs there so they something do besides burn each other out.  The upside is that the European armaments industry now has a new client!!!!


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## MarkOttawa (17 Mar 2008)

Is the unraveling beginning?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080317/ts_afp/serbiakosovoununrest



> KOSOVSKA MITROVICA (AFP) - UN police were forced to withdraw Monday from the Serb-populated part of this flashpoint Kosovo town after coming under attack as they stormed a court occupied by Serbs opposed to independence.
> 
> More than 100 people, including 63 international security force members, were hurt amid gunfire and a suspected grenade blast after they moved in to regain control of the UN-run tribunal in the northern town of Kosovska Mitrovica, police officials said...
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2008)

And Canada throws its hat into the recognition ring....

Canada Joins International Recognition of Kosovo
DFAIT news release No. 59, 18 Mar 08

The Honourable Maxime Bernier, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today announced Canada’s decision to recognize Kosovo. Minister Bernier issued the following statement:

“We note that a significant number of countries, including our G7 partners and many of Canada’s close allies, have already recognized Kosovo.

“Kosovo is a unique case, as illustrated by its recent history characterized by war and ethnic cleansing, the role subsequently played by the United Nations and NATO in administering the territory and providing for its security, and the ongoing role that international organizations such as the European Union will play in assisting Kosovo with its transition to full independence.

“As the declaration issued by Kosovo's parliament also makes clear, the unique circumstances which have led to Kosovo's independence mean it does not constitute any kind of precedent. Statements made by other countries recognizing Kosovo's independence have echoed this point.

“We welcome the commitment made by Kosovo to ensure the protection of the rights of Serbian and other minorities, including their right to safety. Canada also welcomes Kosovo’s commitment to ensure the protection of religious and cultural heritage sites. Canada attaches great importance to the full implementation of these and other commitments, undertaken by Kosovo’s leaders in line with the recommendations of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari.

“The development of Kosovo into a democratic, multi-ethnic state that fully respects human rights is essential for peace, political stability and economic progress in the Balkans.

“In this context, Canada acknowledges this new international reality.”

- 30 -


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## MarkOttawa (18 Mar 2008)

> The development of Kosovo into a democratic, multi-ethnic state that fully respects human rights is essential for peace, political stability and economic progress in the Balkans...



Good luck.

Mark
Ottawa


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## Reccesoldier (19 Mar 2008)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Good luck.
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Yeah cause they've done such a bang up job of that so far...


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## MarkOttawa (19 Mar 2008)

Military law imposed on divided Kosovo town after Serb rioting
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/military-law-imposed-on-divided-kosovo-town-after-serb-rioting-797805.html



> Nato has put the northern Kosovo town of Mitrovica under de facto military law after rioting by Serbs hostile to the newly independent state left one UN policeman dead and forced the withdrawal of UN staff.
> 
> The violence, which erupted on Monday at the UN courthouse in the divided town, was the worst since Kosovo's Albanian majority declared independence from Serbia last month. Nato officials said that protesters had "crossed a red line", using Molotov cocktails and grenades. A 25-year-old Ukrainian policeman died after being caught in by a grenade blast, becoming the first UN policeman to die in Kosovo since the UN took control in 1999.
> 
> In Mitrovica, the main bridge over the river that separates the town's Serb north from the Albanian south, was closed. French, Belgian and Spanish peacekeepers from the Nato-led force in armoured personnel carriers secured potential flashpoints and *a column of US troops arrived to provide back-up* [emphasis added--hmm]. Meanwhile, all Kosovo Serb police officers were ordered to suspend normal duties...



Why is Jack Layton not decrying this oppressive action by NATO? Surely the UN should be put in charge?
http://www.ndp.ca/page/6134

Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (23 Mar 2008)

Serb PM doing Jack Layton's job for him:
http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/03/23/europe/OUKWD-UK-SERBIA-KOSOVO.php



> Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica on Sunday accused NATO peacekeepers and United Nations police of using "snipers and banned ammunition" to quell a Serb riot against Kosovo's independence.
> 
> "It was the international forces," he told the daily Vecernje Novosti in an interview, referring to a riot in the Kosovo Serb stronghold of Mitrovica last Monday in which a Ukrainian U.N. policeman was killed and a Serb badly wounded in the head.
> 
> ...



Meanwhile some seeming logic here:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKFIL241533._CH_.242020080322



> Serbia has proposed a plan for the "functional division of Serbs and Kosovo Albanians" in Kosovo, Minister for Kosovo Slobodan Samardzic was quoted on Saturday as saying.
> 
> He said the plan referred to all of Kosovo and was part of the government's action plan to reject Kosovo's independence, declared with Western support on Feb. 17.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (10 Apr 2008)

And what about the Albanians in Macedonia (FYROM, that is)?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120779330208303779.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries



> NATO's summit in Bucharest last week provided limited blessings for the Balkans. Although Albania and Croatia were invited into the alliance, Macedonia was shunted into the waiting room, Serbia remained on the sidelines, and Russia's persistent threats of renewed regional conflict over Kosovo went unchallenged...
> 
> The most glaring summit negative was the postponed decision on Macedonia's NATO membership. The country's entry was blocked by Greece after years of stalled negotiations over the country's name and the formal usage of that name. The Macedonian appellation without a geographic or political qualifier is viewed in Athens as a direct challenge to Hellenic patrimony and identity, making it impossible for the Greek parliament to ratify Macedonia's NATO entry.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## geo (11 Apr 2008)

Ahh... the Bal;kans in the Spring.

Then smell of insurection in the air.... kaf, kaf!  :warstory:


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## MarkOttawa (29 Apr 2008)

British grenadiers being strained:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/29/narmy129.xml



> The Armed Forces are being stretched to "dangerous levels", critics claimed yesterday after it emerged that a final reserve battalion will be sent to Kosovo.
> 
> Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, will tell Parliament that a battle group of more than 600 troops from the 2nd Bn The Rifles will fly out to a potentially hostile reception next month...
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (26 May 2008)

Who's in charge of what?

International forces blur mission lines in Kosovo
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4004249.ece



> Six hundred British troops deployed to “a calm but tense” Kosovo as an operational reserve force are facing an uncertain and unpredictable one-month tour.
> 
> The soldiers from the 2nd Battalion The Rifles have been deploying for some weeks and will be at full strength tomorrow and operationally ready to begin their mission on Wednesday.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (29 May 2008)

Boy, this peacekeeping can sure get complicated:

NATO says can't be police force for Kosovo
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080528/n_top_news/news_kosovo_nato_col



> NATO troops should not be left to shoulder police tasks in Kosovo, the U.S.-led alliance said on Wednesday as signs grew that a European Union plan to take over police duties there faced months of delay.
> 
> Kosovo's ethnic Albanian government asked the EU to take over policing from the United Nations when it declared independence from Serbia in February, but Serb ally Russia has so far blocked any formal handover.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## time expired (29 May 2008)

Ah, its wonderful,just watching the United Europeans swinging
into action.How many months ago was the it agreed that the EU
would take over the civilian policing in Kosovo?.If we could just
harness the hot air these European politicos spout we would be
closer to solving the climate change problems.
                                        Regards


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Jun 2008)

An interesting look at Serbia

http://www.michaeltotten.com/


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## MarkOttawa (13 Jun 2008)

How will there be no "prejudice to the status of Kosovo" (i.e. part of Serbia under UNSC Resolution 1244 http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/1244.pdf )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7451310.stm



> UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has set out plans to start ceding UN functions in Kosovo to the EU, despite stiff opposition from Russia.
> 
> The announcement comes only days before the disputed territory adopts a new constitution, following its declaration of independence in February.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (16 Jun 2008)

Kosova constitution proclaimed; UN mostly moving out:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4144414.ece



> Kosovo’s Government adopted its new constitution yesterday in a low-key ceremony intended to mark the handover of UN administrative power to Pristina and the EU...
> 
> In reality, a full handover of UN authority could take many months and it is expected to remain a key player in the Serb half of the northern city of Mitrovica, where the EU has struggled to establish a presence.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (23 Aug 2009)

What's the exit strategy for this failed military mission?  And where are the demands to end the futile foreign occupation 
http://www.euforbih.org/eufor/index.php?Itemid=28&id=12&option=com_content&task=view
of an obviously failed state with a large Muslim population? Bosnia-Hercegovina, that is:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202234.html?sid=ST2009082202479



> Fourteen years after the United States and NATO intervened to stop war and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia [Canadian angle here--there were no great demands to withdraw our troops, as I recall--odd that],
> http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/pa-ap/nr-sp/doc-eng.asp?id=2279
> the old divisions and hatreds are again gripping this Balkan country.
> 
> ...



Just wondering. I guess the difference is that those foreign occupiers aren't dying in combat.

And a post at _Daimnation!_ about another failing, mainly Muslim, polity:

Helping this country is futile
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/011068.html

Mark
Ottawa


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