# Can NCMs date each other?



## armygf (13 Feb 2005)

does anyone know the rules for ncms dating each other?


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Feb 2005)

armygf said:
			
		

> does anyone know the rules for ncms dating each other?



I'm free Friday night, but not if you outrank me.


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2005)

We have married people in my unit, although for example 2 are infantry and the others are in supply or logistics.


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## armygf (13 Feb 2005)

lol nice try! so seriously what are the rules?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Feb 2005)

He will deliver them on friday night......


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## armygf (13 Feb 2005)

boourns!  no deal guys!


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## infamous_p (13 Feb 2005)

LOL army gf it doesnt look like your going to get an answer anytime soon


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## Michael OLeary (13 Feb 2005)

DAOD 5019-1 - Personal Relationships and Fraternization

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5019/1_e.asp

Personal relationships automatically contravene expected behaviours when they involve direct superiors/subordinates or students/instructors, in which cases abuse of authority or other aspects may be involved.


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## Armymedic (13 Feb 2005)

In addition to above which pretty much covers all instances of in garrison relationships. All recent overseas operations have it as one of the standing orders that any and all fraternization of a sexual nature is not allowed, even between legally married couples. For example, talking, working out together, eating together...Ok. Holding hands, kissing, hugging, and anything more...not ok.


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2005)

talking give me a break.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Feb 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> In addition to above which pretty much covers all instances of in garrison relationships. All recent overseas operations have it as one of the standing orders that any and all fraternization of a sexual nature is not allowed, even between legally married couples. For example, talking, working out together, eating together...Ok. Holding hands, kissing, hugging, and anything more...not ok.



Can you post the order that says that?

(damn, I went to press spell check and it posted) I had a debate with this at work, and I need to show a fella the way our military works..


cheers

tess


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## Tpr.Orange (13 Feb 2005)

so what happens if your dating a fellow ncm, and then you or the other party are promoted into an instructor role?   does all contact cease to exist.


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## Navalsnpr (13 Feb 2005)

CFN. Orange said:
			
		

> so what happens if your dating a fellow ncm, and then you or the other party are promoted into an instructor role?     does all contact cease to exist.



The best thing to do is to ensure that your COC knows about the relationship so that they can ensure that future postings will not be contrary to existing policies.


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2005)

Only if you are in their class/course.   After the class/course is over then normal activites would resume.


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## Armymedic (13 Feb 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Can you post the order that says that?
> 
> (darn, I went to press spell check and it posted) I had a debate with this at work, and I need to show a fella the way our military works..
> 
> ...



Here let me just pull it out of my butt....

Give me a week or two (once I get over to Afghanistan) and I can tell you exactly what the TFSO number is. 

Both ISAF and Op Palladium have it as a TFSO.  I have seen them personally, and had to use the TFSO as a ref during a recorded warning last yr in Bosnia.

There was several news articles in fall of 03 talking about the new Camp Julien and how some of the people were complaining how CF policies weren't allowing couples to "see" each other while on ops.


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## HItorMiss (13 Feb 2005)

As long as there are rules, people will break them and get away with it  ;D


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## chrisf (13 Feb 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> In addition to above which pretty much covers all instances of in garrison relationships. All recent overseas operations have it as one of the standing orders that any and all fraternization of a sexual nature is not allowed, even between legally married couples. For example, talking, working out together, eating together...Ok. Holding hands, kissing, hugging, and anything more...not ok.



Are those of us who aren't married still allowed to hug?


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## the 48th regulator (13 Feb 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Here let me just pull it out of my butt....
> 
> Give me a week or two (once I get over to Afghanistan) and I can tell you exactly what the TFSO number is.
> 
> ...



whoa whoa whoa,

I wasn't disagreeing, I was asking where I can find it...

If I had you get it from yer a** we may be called up for fraternizing by the Mods..

tess


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## Gunner98 (13 Feb 2005)

Two sample Standing Orders - exact Ops omitted intentionally. Sorry, I will learn how to attached a file with some more experience on the site.  I looked in the Help menu but did not find directions.

Personal Relationships
References: 
A. CFAO 19-38

PURPOSE 
1.1 This order provides policy and direction, as well as pertinent administrative measures, regarding personal relationships between members posted to the TF area of operations (AOR),. It re-enforces certain provisions of the stated policy in CFAO 19-38 - Personal Relationships. 
DEFINITION 
1.2 Personal relationships. "Personal relationships" means a romantic, emotional, sexual or family relationship, including legal marriage or a recognized common-law relationship between members. 
1.3 Military Members. The term "military member" means a member of the CF, or a member of a foreign military force. 
SCOPE 
1.4 TFSO 1 applies to all personnel posted to the TF AOR as defined at para 13.a. of reference B. It is specifically directed at personal relationships between: 
a. military members; 
b. military members and civilian personnel employed within TF; 
c. military members and other civilian personnel whether employed by TF or not; 
d. civilian personnel under contract of ATCO-FRONTEC and CFPSA; 
e. local civilian personnel under contract of ATCO-FRONTEC and CFPSA while confined to TF camps/sites; and 
f. civilian personnel mentioned at sub-para d. and e. above. 
BACKGROUND 
1.5 As TF members train and work together and live in close proximity, it is normal that some members will develop personal relationships. Although the CF acknowledges the right of members to form such relationships, a commander may intervene to prevent or restrict their development or expression when required to ensure unit effectiveness through the maintenance of discipline, morale and cohesion. 
COMMANDER'S INTENT 
1.6 The maintenance of good discipline requires that certain attitudes exist within TF units/organizations. These attitudes include the respect for authority, immediate obedience to orders and confidence that authority will be used fairly and impartially. Among other factors, high cohesion and morale within TF depends on members perceiving that all other members are treated without favouritism, on members being equally committed to the support of all others in the team in which they function, and on the performance and safety of the Task Force being the primary concern of all members. 
POLICY 
1.7 In an environment where military members and civilians live in close proximity over long periods of time, displays of affection risk to prejudice discipline, cohesion and group moral. Consequently, TF military and civilian personnel must abstain from any behaviour of an intimate nature such as the holding of hands, to kiss, or to embrace or caress each other. Furthermore, sexual relations among those groups of personnel identified at para above are strictly prohibited. Finally, co-ed meetings, i.e. between members of the opposite sex, will not be tolerated at any time in quarters, accommodations, bedrooms, dormitories, as well as showers or communal toilets except for imperative reasons directly related to work. In this last case, the person visiting must complete its (their) task in a diligent and professional manner and leave the aforementioned premises as soon as possible. 
ADMINISTRATIVE AND DISCIPLINARY ACTION 
1.8 Orientation briefings are recommended to ensure military and civilian members' compliance to the conduct guidelines stated herein. If this is proved insufficient, the following administrative measures can be taken: 
1.9 military personnel : 
a. a consigned verbal warning, recorded warning, or counselling and probation IAW CFAO 26-17 / Recorded Warning and Counselling and Probation; and/or 
b. repatriation to Canada. 
1.10 civilian personnel : administrative measures provided for in the contracts with ATCO-FRONTEC and CFPSA. 

1.11 In certain cases, the way in which military/civilian members conduct themselves towards one another can justify measures being taken under the Military Code of Discipline. This may be necessary when the conduct is considered so unacceptable that disciplinary measures may be deemed more appropriate than administrative measures, or when administrative measures do not produce the desired effect. It is the responsibility of unit authorities to decide if disciplinary measures are warranted. The TF Senior Legal Advisor is to be consulted prior to taking such measures in regard to a contravention of this TFSO by a military member.

POLICY ON PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND HARASSMENT 
 Refs:	A. CFAO 19-38 Personal Relationships 
B. CFAO 19-39 Harassment 
 1.		It is very important to the good order and discipline of the Canadian Forces, and specifically to the harmonious execution of the operation of UNIT, that all personnel are conversant with the CF policies on personal relationships and harassment in the workplace. This document provides you with a resume of those CF policies, and amplifies them for UNIT's. Specific mixed gender environment. It is crucial that you understand and acknowledge this direction. 
 2.		In an effort to foster the environment necessary for operational effectiveness, group morale and good discipline, certain provisions must be made to regulate personal relationships within UNIT.   This policy provides the necessary guidance to ensure compliance with current regulations and permits us to focus on our operational mandate.   At the same time, these policy guidelines are designed to respect your freedom and rights. 
 3.		In the workplace UNIT personnel shall refrain from: 
              a.	any inappropriate dialogue reflective of a personal intimate relationship with another member of the unit, including the use of any terms of endearment; 
            b.            and,any physical demonstration and/or acts of affection or intimacy, including but not limited to hand holding, caressing, massaging, hugging, kissing, touching and the like. 
 4.		In, or out of uniform and, on or off DND property, all personnel must refrain from any conduct that is inappropriate under the circumstances, see CFAO 19-38 para 12. 
 5.		It is recognised, however, that a romantic relationship, beyond purely a professional association, may form when people work side by side in the workplace. 
 6.		Any personnel who do form a romantic or personal relationship with another member of the unit are to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner at all times and pay strict adherence to the contents of paragraph three, above.   Members of the unit who are involved in a relationship, whether it preceded their posting to UNIT or was formed subsequent to their arrival, are to report the situation in accordance with reference A, and advise their supervisor. 
 7.		If the relationship is having or is likely to have an adverse effect on cohesion, morale and/or discipline in UNIT one or both members may be posted at the earliest opportunity.   This transfer is not a punishment but acknowledges their rights and is aimed at preventing the appearance of favoured status and should pre-empt any potential impact on good order and discipline.


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## pbi (16 Feb 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Only if you are in their class/course.   After the class/course is over then normal activites would resume.


Actually, it's once both are completely out of the instructor student environment(ie: off the training establishment). I know this because I got involved in the case of a person who violated this.

Cheers


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## buzgo (16 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Actually, it's once both are completely out of the instructor student environment(ie: off the training establishment). I know this because I got involved in the case of a person who violated this.
> 
> Cheers


To add to pbi:

I had a friend who was teaching QL3 courses at CFSCE one summer. His wife came on her QL5 (they were both reserve) and he had to get special permission to be able to see her on weekends - off base.  The rules were very clear and very restrictive.


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## pbi (21 Feb 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> To add to pbi:
> 
> I had a friend who was teaching QL3 courses at CFSCE one summer. His wife came on her QL5 (they were both reserve) and he had to get special permission to be able to see her on weekends - off base.   The rules were very clear and very restrictive.



Yes and in my opinion they need to be.

Cheers


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## Greywolf (3 Mar 2005)

What about an officer and an NCM when they're not in each other's direct chain of command?


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## George Wallace (3 Mar 2005)

Greywolf

It would be even more restricted and highly 'frowned' upon.


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## Greywolf (3 Mar 2005)

But it's still possible, right?  I mean, it's not prohibited or a chargeable offense or something, right?


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## Gunner (3 Mar 2005)

If an officer and NCM have a relationship they must inform their chain of command so appropriate measures can be put into place.  For example, they are not in each others chain of command and there is no undue influence on either.  There are lots of NCM/NCM or Officer/NCE relationships within the military and for the most part, they are not a problem.  Be open about the relationship is the bottom line.


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## Thompson_JM (4 Apr 2005)

and this is exactly why i dont (as the saying goes) poop where i eat. 

although i imagine its much more difficult in the Reg Force (since you may have limited non-military freinds etc..) Ive made a personall comitment to not get involved with military personall. it avoids alot of headaches... though IMHO its not the ned of the world, but keep in mind, if they are in the same unit as you or what not, you run the risk of having alot of conflicts of interest.

Cheers
  Josh

ps this is simply my personal veiw point, as a reservist. there are several relationships which exist in my own unit, and they seem to work just fine. some people can do it, some people cant. to each their own.


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## Canadian Sig (4 Apr 2005)

As a person who is married to another NCM (in the same trade as I am), it can work out fine as long as your COC is in the know all the way up. Also be prepared for it to restrict some options/postings for you. We also both went on Roto 0 and the rules that Armymedic was mentioning were strictly enforced (camp warehouse).


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