# Uncertain about going either multi or helo



## Bo (20 Dec 2007)

Ok, I'm nearly done Moose Jaw (just Nav and Form left) and I still can't decide whether to go multi or helo. Ignore my avatar, jets are not in the cards.

I did my OJT at 438 sqn (Griffons, St.Hubert) and enjoyed the atmosphere, the short briefs and debriefs, fun flying, etc. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the multi-engine world, how they operate, deployments, lifestyle, etc. My dad keeps hinting that I should go multi because I'll have more doors open for me should I decide to get out of the military (debatable?). As of now though, I'm having way too much fun to ever consider leaving the forces.

Here are some of the factors that will influence my decision:

1. Must be posted to a "decent" sized city, not in Saskatchewan, lol. Any city with 100,000+ population is fine.
2. Fun flying, good crew, good camraderie on the base.
3. Must be home at least 8 months of the year. There was an ex-sea king pilot at my sqn who said his kids sometimes didn't recognize him since he was gone so long. I don't mind being deployed for a mission, but being gone 6 months a year, every year, is a bit much.

Other than that, I'm not really sure what else to look for. Good soccer and hockey teams, maybe a nice golf course  ;D.

So do you guys have any suggestions? What are the pro's and con's on your current airframe? Location?


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## Zoomie (20 Dec 2007)

Some of your expectations may be a little over-zealous Bo.

While one of your postings to either a helo or multi unit may involve living in a large city (Edmonton, Winnipeg, Halifax, Victoria, Quebec City, Montreal) - those exact same airframes may involve living in the exact opposite (Comox, Petawawa, Borden, Greenwood, Trenton, Goose Bay, Gander, Cold Lake).

All flying jobs in the CF is fun with good camaraderie - some are just more fun than others.

All CF flying tours must expect some sort of deployments - the only Squadron in the CF that does not actively plan on deploying its aircrew is the dedicated SAR squadrons (442 and 103).  These two units do not have a viable transport role and thus do not get tasked for transport missions or Afghan rotations.

Each community has its time to deploy.  For the past 7 years it has been our TAL Herc units - they deploy 56 days at a time, and can expect 2-3 of these per year.  Before that it was our CH-146 fleet - same sort of deployment.  Apparently, it is now in the works for our Griffs to start up their deployment cycle again.

Multi gives you many more options and airframes than the rotary world.

Good-luck.


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## Franko (20 Dec 2007)

Bo said:
			
		

> 1. Must be posted to a "decent" sized city, not in Saskatchewan, lol. Any city with 100,000+ population is fine.
> 2. Fun flying, good crew, good camraderie on the base.
> 3. Must be home at least 8 months of the year. There was an ex-sea king pilot at my sqn who said his kids sometimes didn't recognize him since he was gone so long. I don't mind being deployed for a mission, but being gone 6 months a year, every year, is a bit much.



Posted to CFB Petawawa.     ;D

Reality check time.

You are not special. You will get posted where the CF decides to place you, deploy as you and your unit are directed, just like everyone else.

Don't like it? VR.

Regards


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## Bo (20 Dec 2007)

Thanks for the info Inch.

Recce, I get the point. I understand the CF can post us and deploy us as they see fit. However, in the final phase of pilot training, we are asked what airframe we want, and what location we want. And the CF tries their best to accomodate us. I just wanted to see what people had to say about their choices and what they liked/disliked.

I guess I should have used the word "preferred" rather than "must" when referring to posting preferences. We all have to be flexible and be prepared not to get our first choice. I was just saying, given my preferences, what would be the ideal airframe/location?

Pet wouldn't be bad cause the flying is hardcore and they got an awesome soccer team  ;D


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## Michael OLeary (20 Dec 2007)

Sounds like a classic opportunity to conduct a course of action analysis based upon your selection of factors.  The possible combinations of airframe and location are few enough to let you efficiently develop a short list to start with.  Then you can focus your questions to help with the final development of your preferred posting locations.


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## Zoomie (20 Dec 2007)

Bo said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info Inch.



Did I miss Inch's post?


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## George Wallace (20 Dec 2007)

I don't have 20/20 vision, in fact V3, and I missed it.  Must have been one of those Black Choppers in whisper mode.


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## Bo (20 Dec 2007)

oops! I meant Zoomie!


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## Inch (20 Dec 2007)

Bo said:
			
		

> Here are some of the factors that will influence my decision:
> 
> 1. Must be posted to a "decent" sized city, not in Saskatchewan, lol. Any city with 100,000+ population is fine.
> 2. Fun flying, good crew, good camraderie on the base.
> 3. Must be home at least 8 months of the year. There was an ex-sea king pilot at my sqn who said his kids sometimes didn't recognize him since he was gone so long. I don't mind being deployed for a mission, but being gone 6 months a year, every year, is a bit much.



1. Halifax is 300,000+
2. Flying is awesome when at sea, kind of boring when ashore and 423 is pretty awesome these days.
3. Not going to happen in Sea Kings. Expect one 6 month deployment and associated workups and exercises every other year. Last year I was at sea for 8 months. Next year will be the same. When you're not getting ready for a deployment, expect 3-4 week exercises at least 4 times a year.


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## Good2Golf (20 Dec 2007)

Bo, my 2 ¢?  Balance your "perfect plan" with "enjoying the moment".

Firstly, keep concentrating on flight training...now is not the time to lose focus and tube yourself!

Next...well, sure, you might want to consider things down the road, but honestly....give such factors a low weighting.  Plan on things closer in...what do you want to do for your introduction into operational flying.  Honestly, you can't go wrong with anything the CF does these days (well, maybe flying around a bunch of navs in the back of a Dash-8 at CFANS wouldn't be on my top-ten list of things to do before I die...   )

As others have said, you can state a preference, but don't have any illusions about being in control...guys with plans more solid than you have had them crushed with a "Congratulations, you're off to fly XXX's in YYYY!" "What?"  

I was a die hard "Wann fly 18's, T-birds, Tutes!" kind of guy going through YMJ, but got the divert, went helos, and have had a blast for the last 20 years!  I honestly can't think about being a pukey seized-rotor driver!  The thought makes my stomach churn...  ;D

Pass your training, get your wings, and enjoy your first operational tour, whatever it is!

Cheers,
G2G


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## Sf2 (20 Dec 2007)

echo with G2G....

Nav is the hardest part of moose jaw - pass that first, then worry about your posting.

BTW, what's so "hardcore" about Petawawa (besides the winters?)


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## SupersonicMax (20 Dec 2007)

SF2 said:
			
		

> echo with G2G....
> 
> Nav is the hardest part of moose jaw - pass that first, then worry about your posting.
> 
> BTW, what's so "hardcore" about Petawawa (besides the winters?)



Nav? Hardest part?  Come one!  Clearhood is much harder IMHO.  Much more you can f*** up.


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## Good2Golf (20 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Nav? Hardest part?  Come one!  Clearhood is much harder IMHO.  Much more you can f*** up.



...flying fixed-altitude low-level nav over rising terrain that you didn't think you were over would ruin your day...


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## Bo (20 Dec 2007)

Good advice Inch and G2G, thanks.



			
				SF2 said:
			
		

> echo with G2G....
> 
> Nav is the hardest part of moose jaw - pass that first, then worry about your posting.
> 
> BTW, what's so "hardcore" about Petawawa (besides the winters?)





As for Nav being the toughest phase, well, everyone has different opinions on that. A surpisingly high number of people have been failing the BIT and ICHT lately. I guess it all depends.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Dec 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...flying fixed-altitude low-level nav over rising terrain that you didn't think you were over would ruin your day...


I have no doubt about it, but the Moose Jaw Nav is so canned and legs are so short that there is no way to get more than 1 mile off track.  Plus, it's the Prairies.  There isn't much rising terrain around!!

Max


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## Good2Golf (20 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I have no doubt about it, but the Moose Jaw Nav is so canned and legs are so short that there is no way to get more than 1 mile off track.  Plus, it's the Prairies.  There isn't much rising terrain around!!
> 
> Max




...that's not the point.


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## Inch (20 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I have no doubt about it, but the Moose Jaw Nav is so canned and legs are so short that there is no way to get more than 1 mile off track.  Plus, it's the Prairies.  There isn't much rising terrain around!!
> 
> Max



Always have a come-back eh? 

It's been a few years since I was blasting around MJ but I seem to remember the terrain rising at least 1000ft to the south of MJ. I found it easy enough to get lost, especially when your turn point is a town that doesn't exist anymore and the world is moving at 4 miles a min. By the way, the clearhood stuff is also marked on a Nav test, I know guys that failed the BNT for their overhead breaks as one of the fail points.

Bo, 

Good points brought up by G2G and SF2, any flying tour is going to be pretty good for your first few years, there really is no bad job. They all have their pros and cons and you just need to figure out what suits you best based on what you want. I was a College aviation guy with a Commercial Aeroplane licence amongst a whole class of fixed wing aviators, when I got to Moose Jaw my opinion changed and I ended up helos. Even flying a 40+ yr old helicopter that is the media's favourite whipping horse, I absolutely love the job. We do things in Sea Kings that the TacHel, CSS and SAR guys don't get to do, on the flip side, they get to do some pretty cool stuff on NVGs that we don't use as of yet and won't use until the Cyclone comes online in the next few years.

As far as cities, you can't get much better than Halifax or Victoria, if locale is your prime motivating factor, I can't wait to teach you to land on a ship. If flying formation low level on NVGs is your thing, the TacHel guys will be happy to see some fresh faces. Same for any community really. Right now, just figure out if you want Multi or Helo. The best way to do this is to talk to some of your instructors that have been there, I know I was convinced Sea Kings were for me by my primary instructor in Moose Jaw.

Good luck on the rest of your course.


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## Good2Golf (20 Dec 2007)

Bo, were you in MJ in July (i.e. during Armed Forces Day)?


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## Bo (20 Dec 2007)

Inch, again, great advice, thanks.

G2G, yeah I was there...umm, why do you ask?


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## Good2Golf (20 Dec 2007)

I was passing through and saw some of the demos...you can figure that what the Griffon was doing would be pretty representative of what you'd fly at a tac hel sqn.

G2G


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## Sf2 (21 Dec 2007)

no one's failing nav anymore?

I guess they started giving out real maps.....i'm sure the early NFTC'ers remember the blurry photocopied 1:500,000??  :


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## MAJONES (21 Dec 2007)

Just to put in my $0.02.  You mentioned that you were thinking about which airframe would give you more options when you retired to civi life.  I can say with great confidence that helo is your best bet in that regard.  I worked as a fixed wing civi pilot for 7 years before I joined and it has been my experience that there is usually a surplus of fixed wing pilots (even ones with MIFRs and heavy jet time).  I've known guys who went from the left seat of a 757 straight back to flying pop 'n chips up north.  On the flip side, I've as yet to meet an unemployed, high time, rotary wing pilot.


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## SupersonicMax (21 Dec 2007)

SF2 said:
			
		

> no one's failing nav anymore?
> 
> I guess they started giving out real maps.....i'm sure the early NFTC'ers remember the blurry photocopied 1:500,000??  :


We use Falcon View now!!


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## Globesmasher (26 Dec 2007)

Bo said:
			
		

> 3. Must be home at least 8 months of the year.



Then, my friend, you do *NOT* want to be involved in fixed wing, multi engine, transport operations.
I cannot think of too many "operational" flying positions that will accommodate such a demand.

Best of luck in your search and decision.


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## Strike (26 Dec 2007)

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> Then, my friend, you do *NOT* want to be involved in fixed wing, multi engine, transport operations.
> I cannot think of too many "operational" flying positions that will accommodate such a demand.
> 
> Best of luck in your search and decision.



Echoing that post, on the helo side, the Tac Hel types may not yet be deploying in anything but a TUAV capacity (as a group), but they still spend alot of time away what with supporting Army courses and work-ups along with all the yearly operations like Op Hurricane and such.


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## pipstah (28 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> We use Falcon View now!!


When I was in YMJ ''the'' test that people were failing the most was the navigation test. I found that navigation was the hardest phase for me during that course. It can go well but it can go totally wrong and then it's getting harder and harder to get back on track. As for Falcon view... if you're going helo or multi, get ready to do your maps the old school way with no tools in the map room in YPG.

As for which community to ask for, I'm pretty sure you already know what type of flying they both do. I wanted to go Tac hel since day one, so I was an easy case to deal during selection. Now I'm posted to a Combat Support Squadron  , I never taught I would go there since I was sold to Tac Hel and I am now looking forward to that new posting! Sometime you try to plan something and it just don't happen the way you would like to. Keep a positive attitude and enjoy your first operational squadron. Don't be ''that guy'' type of person if you know what I mean... I'm happy to go where I'm posted to and can't wait to go see some friends instructing at Gagetown for my BFO.  

P.S:  Is it allowed to play tricks against the FE's? Just to know if I will be able to get my revenge on a friend that I know overthere  ;D


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## Loachman (28 Dec 2007)

pipstah said:
			
		

> P.S:  Is it allowed to play tricks against the FE's? Just to know if I will be able to get my revenge on a friend that I know overthere  ;D



Yes. In fact, it's highly encouraged.


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## Franko (28 Dec 2007)

Back on topic troops.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## 1feral1 (10 Jan 2008)

Bo said:
			
		

> 1. Must be posted to a "decent" sized city, not in Saskatchewan, lol. Any city with 100,000+ population is fine.



Tell me whats wrong with Saskatchewan Bo?

Since your well on your way to insulting veterans WRT the recent Iranian/USN incident, why not come clean to this Redneck Saskatchewan boy? I'd like to know.


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jan 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Tell me whats wrong with Saskatchewan Bo?
> 
> Since your well on your way to insulting veterans WRT the recent Iranian/USN incident, why not come clean to this Redneck Saskatchewan boy? I'd like to know.



Come on WDU have a little sense of humour.  Military doesn't mean you loose your sense of humour.  

What's wrong with SK?  Flat terrain, little to no decent sized towns, not much entertainment (to my taste, and I'm sure to Bo's taste), basically, general lack of civilization!

Max


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## Roy Harding (10 Jan 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Come on WDU have a little sense of humour.  Military doesn't mean you loose your sense of humour.
> 
> What's wrong with SK?  Flat terrain,



Go north, young man.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> little to no decent sized towns,



What're Saskatoon and Regina?



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> not much entertainment (to my taste, and I'm sure to Bo's taste)



There's no accounting for taste.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> , basically, general lack of civilization!
> 
> Max



Ain't it GREAT!!  (I no longer live in SK - I'm in yet ANOTHER mecca of little civilization - North west BC, and lovin' it)


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jan 2008)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Go north, young man.



Going North will just make other things worst, won't it?



			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> What're Saskatoon and Regina?



Small cities   



			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> There's no accounting for taste.



We wouldn't have this conversation if there was no accounting for taste eh?



			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Ain't it GREAT!!  (I no longer live in SK - I'm in yet ANOTHER mecca of little civilization - North west BC, and lovin' it)



I need civilization to keep sane!

Max


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## 1feral1 (10 Jan 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Come on WDU have a little sense of humour.  Military doesn't mean you loose your sense of humour.
> 
> What's wrong with SK?  Flat terrain, little to no decent sized towns, not much entertainment (to my taste, and I'm sure to Bo's taste), basically, general lack of civilization!
> 
> Max



??

Do you and Bo give each other 'reacharounds' after lights out?

So are you calling Saskatchewan uncivilised??

Again you fail to amaze me.


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## Strike (10 Jan 2008)

op:


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## SupersonicMax (11 Jan 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> So are you calling Saskatchewan uncivilised??



Yup



			
				Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Again you fail to amaze me.



So do you...  But you did make my day though!

Max


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## Zoomie (11 Jan 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I need civilization to keep sane!



This is coming from the guy who's career aspirations will only amount to three possible posting choices: Moose Jaw, Cold Lake or Bagotville.  Better get out now Max - or get a real flying job.


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## SupersonicMax (11 Jan 2008)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> This is coming from the guy who's career aspirations will only amount to three possible posting choices: Moose Jaw, Cold Lake or Bagotville.  Better get out now Max - or get a real flying job.



I'm actually from Bagotville, so I should not be an issue!


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