# CFSATE



## Kronos86 (9 Oct 2014)

Where Sergeants and Master Corporals become Officers. When did it become "normal" for the air force to enforce wrong ways of doing drill and etiquette. since when do you check arms and come to attention for Master Corporals and Sergeants. How is this the right things to teach, isn't this school to prepare you for whats to come?

CFSATE seems to be the land of forgotten toys/personnel. The dump of unwanted staff. 

Why is this the impression recruits get when they get there. 

Any opinions on this?


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## PMedMoe (9 Oct 2014)

I've been to a couple of the schools in Borden and it's not uncommon for students to "check arms" for all staff.   

Curious as to how long you've been in....


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## jpjohnsn (9 Oct 2014)

If I had to put money on it, it's an incorrect application of an olde tyme RCAF custom that has come into the CF via Air Cadets. 

The practice was that, when not wearing a headdress or when not able to salute, compliments could be paid to an officer by checking arms. 

By the time I joined cadets in the very early 80s, it was quite common to see cadets checking arms for any higher ranked cadet, when wearing headdress, and officers, if not wearing headdress. 

Regardless, checking arms is being used as a form of compliment.  The 201 very clearly says that NCMs are not paid compliments, and checking arms isn't a form of compliment found in the 201 anyway; so the School CWO needs to step in and tell them to knock it off.    I've done my level best to kill this wherever I've encountered it in my work with cadets but it is, unfortunately, still pretty common.


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## hotbarrelunload (10 Oct 2014)

I just graduated from my 3's ACS last week and spent almost two years in CFSATE I can give you this advice.
Play the game. Check your arms to SENIOR ncm's, not masterjacks.
The place is bizarro land for somethings. 
There are some excellent staff and some not so excellent staff.
PLAY THE GAME, don't fight it.
 Do your time, and before you know it your done.


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## TCM621 (10 Oct 2014)

Kronos86 said:
			
		

> Where Sergeants and Master Corporals become Officers. When did it become "normal" for the air force to enforce wrong ways of doing drill and etiquette. since when do you check arms and come to attention for Master Corporals and Sergeants. How is this the right things to teach, isn't this school to prepare you for whats to come?
> 
> CFSATE seems to be the land of forgotten toys/personnel. The dump of unwanted staff.
> 
> ...


CFSATE is one of the most confusing schools I have been to in almost 20 years in the CF. Schools always have weird policy but normally you can at least follow the logic. The logic of CFSATE policy is like counting to five, starting at 1 and ending at banana. A lot of their policies are in contravention of CF policy and some are flat out not legal.  And don't even get me started on the "drill" and "marching" policy enforced there.

When it came to checking your arms for MCpls and Sgt, I didn't do it. I just just greeted them with a respectful "Sgt" (Or MCpl). And a nod. I got away with it. Your milage may vary.


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## Old EO Tech (11 Oct 2014)

I would not have thought that CFSATE being RCAF would be that top down.  Personally being Army I don't have an issue with JrNCO's checking their arms for MWO/CWO and Officers when not wearing headress.  But I'm probably a bit old fashioned in this respect.

I do see this happen in Edmonton, though not from every Pte or Cpl, so I'm not sure which Army Schools are still practicing this, and which are not.  I certainly do not jack up any soldiers for not checking their arms, but I do say Thank You to those that do.


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## childs56 (12 Oct 2014)

CFSATE needs a overhaul, they had some real great instructors but their commanding staff seem to have forgotten what being a leader is and what Command does. 
Lots of small issues that eventually turn into systemic issues. They seem to do their own thing from the CO down and not in a good way. I feel for the new recruits who are lead to believe that this is how the Military is run. 

To many Staff there who think they are in the right, when questioned about it they hide behind their rank instead of following the rules. The problem is they have slowly gotten away with their behavior. What they need is a kick in the behind and set the staff straight. But when it comes from the top down what is one to do.


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## TCM621 (12 Oct 2014)

CTD said:
			
		

> CFSATE needs a overhaul, they had some real great instructors but their commanding staff seem to have forgotten what being a leader is and what Command does.
> Lots of small issues that eventually turn into systemic issues. They seem to do their own thing from the CO down and not in a good way. I feel for the new recruits who are lead to believe that this is how the Military is run.
> 
> To many Staff there who think they are in the right, when questioned about it they hide behind their rank instead of following the rules. The problem is they have slowly gotten away with their behavior. What they need is a kick in the behind and set the staff straight. But when it comes from the top down what is one to do.


Saw that a lot from everyone from instructions, command staff and orderly room staff. If you bring up policy, they take it as insubordination. Policy is policy. I don't need favors or special treatment but don't fight me after I show you, on paper, the policy. 

You would think a school which has an incredibly high amount of remusters, they would be prepared to be called out when they make stuff up. 
Sometimes, things change and people aren't aware of it. For example, you no longer require a weekend leave pass for travel anywhere in Canada.  You could fly from Esquimalt to Gander, as long as you made it back on time for Monday.  If you are throwing out threats of charges for people who are going to Toronto without a leave pass, don't get upset if someone brings up the new rules. It's not the members fault you didn't know the rule.

All that said, it is still a school and proper respect is key. You may be able to call you boss Steve in your unit and tell him he is full of it but that won't fly in a school environment.  And you need to be prepared to back up your claims. Have the reference ready. Don't approach it as a battle, but just provide the information.  At the end of the day, if they try to punish you for doing something within your entitlement, they will end up looking foolish. It is hard to do sometimes, especially when they are refusing to accept they are wrong and continuing to enforce rules that don't exist but it works out better in the long run.


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## hotbarrelunload (13 Oct 2014)

It took me about 6 months to shake the army out of my head at CFSATE. Some things I kept were proper drill, dress and deportment, and not buddy fucking, (blading).
My course was re-muster heavy. We had 87 years collective of army experience in my group of 11.
PLAY THE GAME as I said earlier. Policy in this place seemed to change depending on what building you are in. Accept it, don't bother fighting it.
I learned to smile at certain things and get on with my day. ( I'm getting paid to go to school)
Get through the confusion, study, do your homework and grad.
Just like basic. be the grey man.


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## observor 69 (13 Oct 2014)

I remustered from Weapons tech air to AVS. Second time around life was easy....secret, play the game and it's amazing how easy things become.


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