# All things GPS (recommendations, tips, etc.) - merged



## Armymedic (2 Jul 2005)

I just picked on up as my tour gift. 

Anyone else got a Rhino? 

What do you think about it?


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## EW (3 Jul 2005)

Sorry Mate,

Don't have one, but I have seen them in use.  Hope you got a set of two not just a single unit.  Two of them are just soooo much fun.  Certainly a major leap from the Radio Shack walkie talkies of my youth.

A couple of observations I've made are that while the GMRS frequencies offer a much greater range than the FRS freqs (the Rhine 130 has both FRS and GMRS freqs) I would not use the GMRS frequencies unless your FRS reception is poor.  FRS freqs use less power than GMRS freqs (FRS .5 Watt and GMRS 1.0 Watt for the Rhino).  Sticking with FRS longer will lengthen your battery life.

Sad note is that while the 130 has 8 GMRS radio freqs which are for repeater use, the repeaters have not been authorized in Canada yet - to my knowledge.  A good website on the GMRS story in Canada that is worth a read is at:

http://www.cnp-wireless.com/ArticleArchive/Wireless%20Telecom/2005Q2WT%20GMRS.html

If you have two you can plot the other radio's location on your Rhino (and vice versa).  Kind of fun for a family trip involving more than one car, or for hiking in the woods.

It has a digital compass feature, which might come in handy, but based on personal experience with digital compasses (I've had one on my Magellan in Bosnia/Haiti/Afghan) I never like the thing for shooting bearings, I always bring a good old "analogue" compass  

Hope this helps, and enjoy your new tool/toy.


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## renfley (17 Jul 2005)

they are a great GPS, the FRS range is not so good though...


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## Armymedic (18 Jul 2005)

I am liking the GPS on my rhino, still having to learn how to use it properly. As for the range...I have kids. For now if they are further then 3 kms away, then there is a problem. Mostly we use FRS for shopping and trips to amusment parks, where my wife and I may be seperated. I'll look to buy another in a yr or two as the price comes down.


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## theoldyoungguy (12 Sep 2005)

i just bought an Etrex GPS and am trying to figure out how to set it up to give me grids that are used on our military maps. by looking at the instructions im assuming i have to configure the position format, and map datum options somehow. can anyone with an etrex GPS help me out on how to format it... keeping in mind ill be using this mainly in WATC if that makes a difference?


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## George Wallace (12 Sep 2005)

In your "map datum options", what are your options?


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## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2005)

main menu
setup
units
map datum >MGRS

You're there

Also....
Main menu
setup
heading
North reference> Grid


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## theoldyoungguy (12 Sep 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> In your "map datum options", what are your options?



theres a huge list of possible options, i currently have my options set at...

Position Format
MGRS

Map Datum
NAD27 Canada

Distance/Speed
Metric

Elevation/Vert.Speed
Meters

any suggestions on what i can do to properly set this so i can use it in accordance with CF maps?


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## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2005)

Set map datum to WGS 84


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## theoldyoungguy (12 Sep 2005)

thanks for your help it is GREATLY appreciated, and it will be even more appreciated when i use it on ex in 2 weeks.

thanks again


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## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2005)

One last thing.  Don't just blindly run off into the toolies without knowing your GPS is setup properly.  Do some short course navs around the base before you head out...Wainwright gets VERY confusing after dark...


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## TCBF (12 Sep 2005)

It sure is, I'm there.   ;D

Carry a compass, too.  Compasses don't need batteries.

Just before we went to Kandahar in 2002, I bought an Etrex - $199.00 plus the hated GST.  My wife said "There goes the food budget", but the pathological liars with red armbands and yellow wagon wheels took all of our hazardous Cargo LSD batteries from our GPSs.  They said they would "Be there when we got there," but, since I was on the lead C5B, I doubted them.

Good thing.

The first several OPs around the airfield where staked in with Garmins and Magellans.

We got the LSD batteries three weeks or so later.

Tom


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## theoldyoungguy (12 Sep 2005)

oh im awesome with a map and compass. on an ftx ok course, the course officer picked me to be navigator. and im always bang on when doing nav. always been told i kick ass at nav. i just bought this to save time. just because im good at something doesnt mean i like doing it


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## theoldyoungguy (12 Sep 2005)

also i plan on using it in conjunction with the map and compass. GPS can get f****d up, map and compass never lies.


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## Armymedic (12 Sep 2005)

Speaking of..

I got the Rino 130, with topo maps set. I was wondering if there is 1. a good online source, and 2. a good book, for referencing all the different map datums, grid measurements et all that everyone uses for nav. 

I was looking at a geocaching site and can't get my maps and data to work with the various datums and locations they use.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2005)

You need to find out which map datum the cacheing sites are using.   WGS 84 is the default for most Garmin units: World Geological Survey 1984.   Every map printing company uses a different datum for their information.   Somewhere on the sites you are looking at, they will tell you which datum they are using.

Try gpscity.com for lots of good info....an Alladin's cave of GPS stuff


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## Armymedic (12 Sep 2005)

been to GPScity, but will dive deeper.

Any other good references?


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## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2005)

There are 2 programs you can download:  Easy GPS, and Expert GPS.  Sorry, no link, but Google finds them pretty quick.  Lots of handy tools in there.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Sep 2005)

Here's another one of my fave sites, loaded with great info:
http://gpsinformation.net/


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## Armymedic (14 Sep 2005)

great link, thanks.


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## RHFC_piper (16 Nov 2005)

I'm sure just about every soldier here, regular or reserve, has used the issued pluggers (GPS) and knows just how useless they are.

Granted, there will be a few of you out there who will say that they are very usefull if you know how to use them, but a)Compared to civilian models, with easier usability, more clear and concise GUI's (graphic user interface), longer battery life, smaller size and comperable durability, the CF pluggers are junk... and b) I've never known any soldier, regular or reserve, who have been able to use pluggers properly, and this includes the JTF guys I've worked with.

This said, I'm looking to buy a civilian GPS unit for when I deploy on Op Archer, and I need some advice on models / makes. I'm sure there are a few of you out there who have had great success with Civi GPS units and may even have taken them on tour...

I've done a little research on the subject and I'm currently looking to buy a Garmin etrex Summit GPS (http://www.garmin.com/products/etrexsummit/index.jsp)..

If anyone has any other suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


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## PPCLI MCpl (16 Nov 2005)

All the Etrex are outstanding.  An alternative is the Garmin Geko 201.  It is smaller, cheaper and does everything a soldier could ask.  It's only drawback is that it operates on AAA batteries.


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## RHFC_piper (16 Nov 2005)

PPCLI MCpl said:
			
		

> All the Etrex are outstanding.   An alternative is the Garmin Geko 201.   It is smaller, cheaper and does everything a soldier could ask.   It's only drawback is that it operates on AAA batteries.



Wow.. Fantastic... The Geko is tons better.

Cheaper and lighter... http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp;jsessionid=D7J6sYS11tyNR21FNnZGm27yQpVJnFp2wwnJL1xYBpvnRQbg7v6W!188688341?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442501161&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302696155&bmUID=1132185978286

The only negative differences are the batteries, which I could care less about, since my mp3 player and digi camera both work on AAA, and the battery life, which is a difference of 4 hours (12 insted of 16), but I don't think that matters so much.

Thanks PPCLI MCpl .

anyone else have any better suggestions?


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## Kat Stevens (16 Nov 2005)

It doesn't really matter if you're off to the sandbox, but the lower end Garmin units get crap signal under any kind of cover, ie tree canopy.  The Magellan units are similarly priced, get much better signal reception, and comparable bells and whistles.  They also "learn", where the Garmins rely on pricey software to get any real detail in their mapping units.  All this is just my opinion, but I've used both, and my Garmin is sitting in a drawer with the batteries out.


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## PPCLI MCpl (16 Nov 2005)

The main problem with AAA's is that they wear out faster and are difficult to obtain through the system.


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## ZipperHead (16 Nov 2005)

The Summit is quite good. A big part of the GPS is the software/applications you get for it. The maps are expensive, but worth it if you have a mapping GPS. I would highly recommend buying Oziexplorer (link: http://www.oziexplorer.com/ ). The beauty of this software is you can load in scanned maps (any map for that matter), calibrate it, and you are good to go in planning out routes, WP's, etc. It doesn't upload the map, however, to your GPS. You can also get a 3D add-on to it, and once you download the elevation data (found on gov't sites), you can create 3D maps. Pretty cool. Steep learning curve for both programs, but worth it. Anyone interested can PM me for assistance.

If you upgrade the basic version of Google Earth to Plus ($20 US per year), you can get GPS support, and that is one kick-ass program, if you've never used it (the free one that is - hesitant to commit $20 to try it out to find it may be no better than Oziexplorer for GPS support). If you have ever been to Gagetown (any area for that matter), zoom into the training area, change the vertical exagerration, tilt the map so you see the contours/elevations and do a fly-by of Bell Wood. The level of detail is unreal. You can actually see the bigger puddles of water. 

BTW, I am very proficient at the PLGR, but that is from a lot of self-education, and teaching it a lot. It is difficult to learn, but keep in mind how old it is, and the MANY capabilities it has over a civvy GPS (crypto, interfacing with our equipment, ruggedness, etc). A good software program would do wonders to keep it current, but there are plans to field a new version in 2006 (IIRC). There are a few good training tools being produced to better educate pers on the use of the PLGR here at CTC, and if you have access to Documentum, they can be found there (if not right now, soon...... I am working in Trg Development for the Armour School and have seen the courseware, but not sure if it's "good to go" for consumption by the masses.... I can find out this week and advise when I'm sure).

If you get a GPS, it is something that you definitely have to "play" with to utilize it to it's max potential. Using it as a "you-are-here" device is OK, but you can do much more if you are willing to dive in and learn it. And spend money like a drunken sailor on the software that you need..... 

Al


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## GO!!! (16 Nov 2005)

My Garmin Etrex has worked very well, and at 120$, no complaints.


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## RHFC_piper (16 Nov 2005)

PPCLI MCpl said:
			
		

> The main problem with AAA's is that they wear out faster and are difficult to obtain through the system.



Well, according to the specs on both GPS units, the eTrex has a battery life (continuous use) of 16 hours and the Geko has 12 h... not that big a difference to me.
As for getting the batteries... Rechargable... I use them in my mp3 player and camera anyway.



			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The Magellan units are similarly priced, get much better signal reception, and comparable bells and whistles.   They also "learn", where the Garmins rely on pricey software to get any real detail in their mapping units.   All this is just my opinion, but I've used both, and my Garmin is sitting in a drawer with the batteries out.



I've looked at Magellan and haven't found a model I like (bells and whistles) that isn't out of my price range. (up to $300 / preferably $200).

Can you suggest a model?

and have you ever used a Magellan on deployment / Ex / rugged conditions?   if so, how did it compare to the Garmins?



			
				Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> The Summit is quite good. A big part of the GPS is the software/applications you get for it. The maps are expensive, but worth it if you have a mapping GPS. I would highly recommend buying Oziexplorer (link: http://www.oziexplorer.com/ ). The beauty of this software is you can load in scanned maps (any map for that matter), calibrate it, and you are good to go in planning out routes, WP's, etc. It doesn't upload the map, however, to your GPS.



Is there software that does load maps on to GPS... for a reasonable price?

btw.   Thanks for all the other info.


... Now there's going to be 3 more replys... bugger.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




must... absorb... more......    info....


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## Kat Stevens (16 Nov 2005)

http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=90

give that try, a little steep, but when you consider that my E trex legend, out of the box is nowhere near the unit this one is.  I have both, by the way. For 200 bills, I'm afraid you're not going to get everything you want.


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## RHFC_piper (16 Nov 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=90
> 
> give that try, a little steep, but when you consider that my E trex legend, out of the box is nowhere near the unit this one is.   I have both, by the way. For 200 bills, I'm afraid you're not going to get everything you want.



For the most part, this has all the same features the Garmins have... but its more expensive... 

This one gets better reception? how is it better?


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## ZipperHead (16 Nov 2005)

I did a quick Google search, and this is what I came up with: http://gpsinformation.net/usermaps.htm

The short answer is: no. 

In the future, maybe. But I think that the big names (Garmin, Magellan) realize there is a lot of money to be had, so they will probably keep it proprietary so that you have to keep coming back to them for all the accesories.

Here is a link I found in my search for some of the links I list below: http://www.keenpeople.com/index.php?option=articles&task=viewarticle&artid=4&Itemid=3 I hope you have a lot of time on your hands if you try this method  ;D

Keep in mind, even with the maps, the detail isn't stellar on the GPS itself (due to resolution, limited memory capacity (for the moment) of most GPS, though some have expandable memory, etc). A big part of what you need the GPS for drives what "bells and whistles" you need. Face it: you will probably have a topo map with you anyway, so do you need that level of detail in the GPS? Probably not. If you splurge on software, do all your route planning on a computer, upload the WP's and routes into the GPS that way (far easier than entering them manually, BTW), and then use the GPS as it is usually used: "you-are-here", time to go x minutes, speed y km/h, direction z mils/degrees, etc. You can change the screens (what is displayed) fairly easy to your own liking, and there are "hacks" for some different set-ups out there (use at your own risk). One thing that I don't recommend getting as an extra (unless you really, really, really want it) is the digital compass feature (which works while the GPS is stationary, as opposed to calculating your direction from positional updates while on the move). While it seems good in theory, in practice it is nowhere as accurate as one would like (off by a minimum of 50mils, up to 200+ mils). Unless I'm totally out of 'er, I've never got the compass to be very accurate (yes, I calibrated it). If you want an accurate bearing, use a "normal" compass (which you should have as a backup anyways, as batteries always die, but the magnetic north pole will always be there.....). 

Watch out for the high cost of accesories (Wal-mart has the best prices on the little stuff, like cables, cases, mounting brackets, etc). Try these sites for Canadian prices on kit: http://www.gpscity.ca/ http://www.canadagps.com/ http://www.gpsmart.ca/ 

Anyway, hope that helps, and for god's sake, make sure you buy/use a lanyard. I lost my first GPS because I didn't secure it to my vehicle, and I have heard of more than a few guys losing their expensive "toys". I know of a guy who found one in Kosovo, so someone's loss was his gain....

Al


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## Kat Stevens (16 Nov 2005)

It can't locate the signal from the satelites when under any kind of overhead cover, I know, I've got one.  In front of me right now I have an older Magellan Meridian GPS, and a Garmin E-Trex legend, both turned on.  The Magellan knows exactly where I am, the Garmin is having a brain embolism.  The Meridian will accept a memory card, the Garmin will not.  In order to get the garmin to do what the Magellan does out of the box, I need to spend an additional 200-300 bills for all the Garmin software... Your call...Hope this helps

Edited to add:  GPS City is a veritable Ali Baba's cave of GPS info...


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## RHFC_piper (16 Nov 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> It can't locate the signal from the satelites when under any kind of overhead cover, I know, I've got one.   In front of me right now I have an older Magellan Meridian GPS, and a Garmin E-Trex legend, both turned on.   The Magellan knows exactly where I am, the Garmin is having a brain embolism.   The Meridian will accept a memory card, the Garmin will not.   In order to get the garmin to do what the Magellan does out of the box, I need to spend an additional 200-300 bills for all the Garmin software... Your call...Hope this helps
> 
> Edited to add:   GPS City is a veritable Ali Baba's cave of GPS info...



Okay... there's a selling point.  

Well now I have a lot to consider.  Thanks for all the info, everyone.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2005)

I have the The Magellan Meridian GPS and it's great.
My GPS seemed to be a lot faster at finding it's position than guys using the garmin. The "WAAS Compatibility" thing seems to make it very fast and accurate. I know some GPS has it and some don't. A garmin GPS that didn't took 3 times as long to "find us"

I think it's the higher end of the Magellan series. Lots of little functions on it and with the street map softwhere it's great when your lost or even trying to find an actual address. Hell it had some of the black tracks in petawawa and range roads on it.

Disadvantages I find with it,
-Size. It's kinda big, I wouldn't mind finding a smaller GPS. This one has way more functions than i actually need.
-No topigraphical maps. This model doesn't have the ability to accept topigraphical maps.   Honestly I'm not sure how important this really is in a GPS but i figure it should still be a handy function and I'd like to get a GPS that accepts topo maps.

For those two reasons i've been looking at the garmin legend. The legend has WAAS i believe, it's smaller and it accepts topo maps as far as i know. It's also cheaper than many of the merdians.   My mistake was deffinatly getting wrapped around "more expensive is better" & all the bells and whistles.

One last disadvantage of my GPS is that because it's a little older, the PC cable used to recieve your mapping softwhere is old. It's not a USB port but one of the older ones. I need to boot up my old desk top to connect the cable. I'm sure newer ones all have USB connectors though.

Hey, wanna buy a Magellan Meridian?     ;D

Edit:
Just rereading some posts.
The point about not operating under cover is a good one. Also having topo on a GPS probably isn't the end all be all of requirements since you should have a map with you.
Does the legend have a built in compass like the meridian?


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## dw_1984 (17 Nov 2005)

I recently bought an Etrex Summit and it works fairly well...haven't really done any field stuff w/ it though.

WAAS - IIRC, all of the Etrex line have WAAS now.  Before the non-mapping units (original, summit, venture) did not have WAAS.  All non-mapping units were upgraded last year to have multiple tracks, more waypoints and WAAS (might be more but I don't recall).  Check the software version number and Garmin website for more details.

Compass - All GPS units have some sort of quasi-compass but only works when travelling (measuring bearing from one point to another).  These will not work like a traditional compass in a stationary way.  Certain GPSs have a true compass.  In the Etrex line, the Summit, Vista and VistaC are the only ones w/ a real compass.

USB - The newer colour Etrex (VistaC, LegendC) have USB connectivitiy.


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## ZipperHead (17 Nov 2005)

Ref the compass: there is one Magellan GPS with a very good digital/electronic compass built in (don't remember the model). It gives you the ability to plot/shoot/gain a bearing with the GPS in pretty any position, whereas the other models make it so the GPS has to be pretty much level (horizontal) to get an accurate bearing. It's the way that the antenna is designed, IIRC. 

I used to figure out a bearing (rough....very rough) with the PLGR when carrying it by extending it away from me as far as I could and then reading the bearing given (as the PLGR computes the bearing by direction change, so it isn't really a compass, more of a calculator). It was a quick and dirty way to get going in the right direction: it beat walking 20 - 30 metres, or around in circles, like I have seen many people do.

Regarding the USB connectivity, I discovered the hard way that most new laptops don't have serial ports (d'oh!!), but a serial-USB adapter can be had for $30-35 at Radio Shack (I know it changed names, but can't recall the new name). The Source????

Al


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## Big Foot (17 Nov 2005)

Allan, it is The Source now. I dunno what it is but the name change seems to have brought better service. Maybe it's just my imagination.


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## ZipperHead (17 Nov 2005)

As long as they stop their policy of hiring only pimply faced, unshaven basement dwellers, wearing the cheapest polyster shirts available. Man, talk about a true stereotype.....

Al


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## dw_1984 (17 Nov 2005)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Ref the compass: there is one Magellan GPS with a very good digital/electronic compass built in (don't remember the model). It gives you the ability to plot/shoot/gain a bearing with the GPS in pretty any position, whereas the other models make it so the GPS has to be pretty much level (horizontal) to get an accurate bearing. It's the way that the antenna is designed, IIRC.



Most GPS compasses are 2-axis compasses.  You must hold them horizontal.  The one that you can hold in any position is a 3 axis compass.  I believe you are talking about the Magellan eXplorist 600. http://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=1073


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## Gayson (22 Nov 2005)

Radio Shack in Canada is called the source now.

Circuit City bought Radio Shack Canada, but kept the Radio Shack name for a while.

The US Radio Shack sued Circuit City (I suppose they bought the stores but not the name) so they renamed it to the source.

The Source was the name of the flier/magazine Radio Shack Canada used to mail out.

I own the Magellan Meridian.  It's awesome.

It floats, its green and brown (NOT BRIGHT YELLOW!).

I have it set to display 6 finger MGRS (can go up to 10) on the 2 datums CF maps use simultaneously.


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## ZipperHead (22 Nov 2005)

> I have it set to display 6 finger MGRS (can go up to 10) on the 2 datums CF maps use simultaneously.



I'm not sure if I follow what you mean. Does this mean you can be using 2 datums at once? 

And the CF doesn't use 2 datums exclusively. The datum used is what is indicated on the map, and that depends on where you are using the GPS (different countries have different "conventions" and within N America there are many). Here is a list of all map datums (courtesy of Garmin): http://www.garmin.com/support/faqs/MapDatumList.pdf

And here is a FAQ which also includes 2 definitions of 'datum': http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/faq.shtml

A common error and a headache for users is when you work in an area that straddles 2 maps that use different datums. The GPS info and the map info won't coincide, and people automatically blame the GPS for being wrong. Well, the GPS is telling you where it is based on the datum that you input. It doesn't know what map sheet you are using, and yes you could have the similar (looking) map sheets with different datums (always check the marginal information, particularly on older maps). And, IIRC correctly, some maps will indicate 2 different datum types for the same map.

Of course, all these observations are based on my experiences (here in Canada, from one side of the country to the other, and overseas) and what little I have read/learned. I could very well be completely out to lunch, so please let me know if I have gone outside of my boundaries.

Al


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## Bob F. (22 Nov 2005)

If you buy a GPS unit in Canada your broadcast comms will be limited to 1watt or apx 3-5km's range.(CRTC regulations)
A Garmin Rhyno 5xx series for eg., if bought in the US, will transmit 5watt or out to apx.25km. 
May be a factor to consider on your next cross border shopping trip.


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## ZipperHead (22 Nov 2005)

I was reading up on the Rhyno's and noticed that the range seemed a little low for the Canadian version, and never clued in at the time (why that was). I was never really considering getting one, other than the Gucci factor  8), but I can definitely see the application for that bad-boy in the civvy world: hunting, tracking family/kids/cheating wifes movements. Did I say that out loud?

AFAIK, all the other GPS' on the market are "passive" in that they are simply receivers, not transmitters, so that isn't neccesarily a consideration. And, I don't know if the CRTC has black helicopters that would swoop down and sneak you off to Gitmo if you did happen to bring one of these more powerful Rhyno's into Canada, but I 'spose it could happen  

Al


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## Bob F. (22 Nov 2005)

Nothing beats a good helicopter ride!  ;D ...swoop away boys!
Actually people being able to find you with helicopters would be an asset in an emergency situation.
Never can tell when you will need the big YELLOW rescue helicopter.


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## GO!!! (22 Nov 2005)

Certain military units in Iraq right now do not use the Rhyno because it does transmit the location of the user - and the bad guys were found with one on their smouldering corpses!! 

Could come in handy for ambushes and indirect fire...


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## Navalsnpr (22 Nov 2005)

Best site to look at GPS's:

gpscentral.ca


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## chrisf (22 Nov 2005)

Reference active vs passive, unless there's some technology for GPS I'm not familiar with, the transmitting portion has nothing to do with GPS, rather, it's only related to the walkie talkie portion, which transmits in the VHF band, on the FRS freqs (Same as the regular cheapie walkie talkies everyone picks up at the electronics stores). I'm guessing the transmission difference is just a difference between what the CRTC allows and what the American equivilent allows.


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## chrisf (22 Nov 2005)

And reference what GO!!! said, it's not so much that they transmit the location, but they are a bad idea to use for comms in a tactical situation, as they're quite easy to direction find and intercept, the further they transmit, the more dangerous they are, as the further away the enemy force can intercept them... they're unencrypted, so anything you transmit can be heard by anyone with a $50 scanner from radio shack. If you mention anything about your location/cordinates, anyone within a 25 kilometer circle can hear it.

Cell phones are electronic warfare's buddy... anything you say on a cell, they can hear


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## Bob F. (22 Nov 2005)

Slow down Mercury...as the topic title suggest, we are talking about civi GPS.


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## MadNad (22 Nov 2005)

Hey Guys,

I would wait a little before buying Civie GPS Unit. Since Sept 05 The forces took possesion of a new GPS Unit. I had the chance to run some testing on it last summer. Excellent unit. They plan on buying 5000 units a year until 2010. It look like they will be part of soldier kit by very soon. The integration already started and will be expanded after Xmas. This new unit as all the options of the PLGR, plus much more. Map display is one of the long waited one. Much much much more user friendly and dummy proof. And fits in your Combat shirt pocket.

You guys should be carefull about using civie GPS in OPS, since they can be jammed. Also with the right equipment (a Transmitter and your approx location) somebody can display what he wants on your GPS unit. Transmitting a simulated location for you to read is very very easy to do. and anybody can buy the equipment required for that. So again, carefull. It is used every day in classroom environment to run simulation.

Don't spend money now, on a GPS unit. Just wait


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## DG-41 (22 Nov 2005)

I have a US-spec Garmin Rino 520, and I love it. Awesome mapping, tons of memory, never loses signal under reasonable circumstances, and the built-in FRS is nice too.

DG


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## ZipperHead (22 Nov 2005)

As much as I am a techno and gadget geek, I would love to see the new PLGR. But, seeing as I have been around long enough, I seriously doubt that these will be issued to individual soldiers. As I am still wearing the old(er) OD green Goretex jacket, and have yet to see the temperate weather boots, I think it's a pipe dream to think that they will be handing these things out like they are candy. Issued to section commanders, vehicle commanders, etc, overseas, sure, but to say that everyone will have one: unlikely.

And even if they are issued, due to security concerns, I can't see them leaving the QM. And the reason most people want a GPS is to use when they are out and about, whether it is on exercise or on their quad, canoe, whatever. Civvie GPS' are so cheap now (and getting cheaper) they will be everywhere. Waiting for them to issue me one would be like waiting for a replacement for the old Marathon-lose-15-minutes-per-day watch.

And I would say that while your "spoofing" concerns on ops (with civvy style) are legitimate, the chances of that happening are pretty slim. Unless it is Uncle Sam doing it (very possible)..... The GPS is just a tool, and doesn't replace reading a map. It's like a watch: if I'm standing outside on a sunny day, at noon, in shorts and a t-shirt (think New Brunswick here) and my watch says 0234hrs, 1 Jan, I am going to disregard the watch. Same goes with GPS. If it's not used as a crutch, it can aid people in their map & compass (it's nice to know EXACTLY where you are, and not have to HOPE you are right, and that can help your knowledge and confidence with map-reading).

If you have any info on the new PLGR (DIN site), please pass it on: I am very keen on seeing it, and I am a semi-official SME on the PLGR at the Armour School, and would like to start boning up on it.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

AL


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## chrisf (23 Nov 2005)

What's the scale of issue of compasses to an infantry section? 1 or 2 per section? Seems that an issue of 1 or 2 GPS per section would be a reasonable goal, but that's just a thought...


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## GO!!! (23 Nov 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> What's the scale of issue of compasses to an infantry section? 1 or 2 per section? Seems that an issue of 1 or 2 GPS per section would be a reasonable goal, but that's just a thought...



One per man for the compass.

GPS can be anywhere from 2 per section to 1 per platoon, depending on availability.


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## mjohnston39 (24 Nov 2005)

Don't know if you're still looking for a GPS but here are some useful links...

http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/   -  one specific forum on GPS units, a lot of the people posting there have experience with multiple units...
http://gpsinformation.net/                 - reviews of many GPS units...


Mike.


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## Gayson (24 Nov 2005)

Allan,

I have my GPS to display 2 grids at once.  Both of them are 6 finger grids, one is for Nad27 and the other for Nad83, the only two datums I've seen on DND maps so far.


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## GO!!! (24 Nov 2005)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Allan,
> 
> I have my GPS to display 2 grids at once.   Both of them are 6 finger grids, one is for Nad27 and the other for Nad83, the only two datums I've seen on DND maps so far.



Finger? You've said that twice now! 

The only six finger grids I've come accross hang around JDs in sweatpants wating for unsuspecting young troops.....


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## George Wallace (24 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Finger? You've said that twice now!
> 
> The only six finger grids I've come accross hang around JDs in sweatpants wating for unsuspecting young troops.....


Eewwwwwe!

I'd be afraid of them using the Recall function to find your location later.     Ewwwwe!   Sleep at Grid XXXX YYYY.   Work at Grid XXXY YYYX.   Eat in Mess Hall Grid XXYY YYXX.   Drink at Mess Grid XYYY YXXX.   If they record that data, you are really "Screwed".   Eewwwwwe!


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## ZipperHead (24 Nov 2005)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Allan,
> 
> I have my GPS to display 2 grids at once.   Both of them are 6 finger grids, one is for Nad27 and the other for Nad83, the only two datums I've seen on DND maps so far.



J., what make/model do you have? That is definitely a good feature, for the reason mentioned (adjoining maps with different datums). 

I do hope you realize it's six "figure" grid and not 6 "finger" grid, right?!?! Just checking....

Al


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## chrisf (25 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> One per man for the compass.
> 
> GPS can be anywhere from 2 per section to 1 per platoon, depending on availability.



Realistically, given the cost of the rest of the kit on an individual troop, there's no reason they couldn't acquire enough for 1 per troop (Price break with quantity), admitedly, I'm not entirely sure if you'd *want* one per troop, despite the fact the new GPS is supposedly fairly small, still more weight to carry, but still, the option to have that many issued is always nice. Of course, it won't happen, but you never know.


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## Gayson (25 Nov 2005)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I do hope you realize it's six "figure" grid and not 6 "finger" grid, right?!?! Just checking....
> 
> Al



Oh SHIT!    that's embarrasing!  I learn something new everyday!

I have a Magellan Meridian.

I have both displayed at once because I'm just to lazy to reconfigure the display whenever I get one of the other datums.


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## MadNad (30 Nov 2005)

Sorry guys for the little misunderstood,

You know that it would be unrealistic to says that every soldier would have them all the time and this was my mistake. But, With the buy rate that DND is going through with the new one. It will probably be issued on the large scale. From what i heard (Unofficial). They are planning on Section commander, 2I/C (Infantry) and up. Plus all attached Sigs(Part of the comms gear). As for other unit type(Field Amb, SVCS BAT i dont know).

Those GPS unit do a little more then map and direction (Like the Old Unit, But we can't talk about those options here), but is much more user friendly and dummy proof. As for map and compass, I can tell you the new Sigs generation don't know much about them anymore. They don't teach that much anymore.

As for jamming GPS, or making display the information you want. It is very easy. And you can get the equipment on ebay. Nothing high tech there.

The easy way to put it, the signal from a satellite is very low power and not encrypted when it reach the GPS(Civilian), So you just have to transmit what you want at a higher power output in the area you want for any GPS to receive. Basic Electronic Warfare. It applies to everything that use radio frequency even satellitte. The danger is really there.

But yes, the new model will be widely distributed, As part of kit.


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## Prophet (1 Dec 2005)

so can you use any gps software on any gps divice?


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## Kat Stevens (1 Dec 2005)

Check for compatibility with your unit before uploading anything to your GPS.  Garmin software will not run in Magellan units, and vice versa.  Look for easy gps on line (google finds it very quickly), it's a good all-round GPS utility.


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## chrisf (1 Dec 2005)

MadNad said:
			
		

> You know that it would be unrealistic to says that every soldier would have them all the time and this was my mistake. But, With the buy rate that DND is going through with the new one. It will probably be issued on the large scale. From what i heard (Unofficial). They are planning on Section commander, 2I/C (Infantry) and up. Plus all attached Sigs(Part of the comms gear). As for other unit type(Field Amb, SVCS BAT i dont know).



Perhaps we'll even get Athena used on a larger scale...


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## MadNad (3 Dec 2005)

That is coming,

There as been so many changes and upgrade from Ver 1 to Ver 2 that it will be a complete different system, The back bone will stay the same but the user interface is looking different. To start, workstation are being replace. New high speed radio and upgrade on the super highway bandwith (Wide Area System). And there is much more coming. The new GPS will interface directly with the Control indicator in vehicle and that will permit the user to get GPS info directly on the CI display and CPU display. Sigs people will need to keep sharp on the new technology if they don't want to miss the boat.


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## Posthumane (8 Dec 2005)

Regarding jamming of the GPS signal - you can easily jam any receiver, be it a civi one or the PLGR. You just have to transmit on both bands, L1 and L2, with a high enough power. Spoofing the PLGR would be more difficult, as you can't easily spoof the encrypted P-code on the L2 band, but spoofing L1 only receivers (civillian) is not difficult.


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## MadNad (13 Dec 2005)

Hey.

The encryption is one of the safety that civilian GPS dont have for luxury and it is one of the major reason why i said that it could be dangerous to use Civie GPS unit in Theater.
But there are other safety feature on the new Mil Spec GPS unit. Collins DAGR


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## Grayth (16 Dec 2005)

I'm really enjoying this thread as I have just finished a long research on GPS's and map and compass work.
My goal was to be able to get rid of the paper map, yet still have it in electronic format. The end result was the following set up be interested to hear modern soldier's point of view on this as I haven't been in the service since the late 80's...when we had none of this stuff...

note that you can get low rez topo maps off of the government site commonly reffered to as toporama.
These can be easily calibrated to use in OZiexplorer etc... The result. I was surprised just how accurate they were. I tested several grid references on my regular paper topo map vs..the low rez website one. The result very close...was only off by 20m on average using 10 finger grid. I pulled manual bearings using my compass and compared to those given by Oziexplorer again found they were the same. The only downside to Ozi I found was when I asked if they will support MILS as opposed to degrees they answered no but their competitor Memory Map thought that was a good idea for future releases...

However using the low rez toporama images I was able to hold most of Canada on 1 SD 1 gig card chip.

So I my end set up landed up being like this. My pocket PC, put inside an otter Box to make it suitable for field use. Running Oziexplorer and my SD card of maps and I could technically walk out my front door and hike it to the yukon, without needing any paper maps. Plus the screen on my pocket pc is bigger than any GPS unit

Most of the work still being done by map and compass, and now that changed my GPS needs. I no longer needed a big mapping GPS, instead a lower Etrex model suffices as long as it had at least WAAS. I only need it to once and awile tell me here you are...plug those coord into my pocket pc...proper topo map is loaded...and I can start making waypoints and...I'm off.

Works great...and if in the field for any extended period of time the crappy tire foldable solar panel can keep my pocket pc charged up for extended lengths..

If your real savvy you can even take the sattelite images either off of toporama or google earth calibrate them...and then in photoshop combine the 2 images so you can see the sattelite image superimposed on top of the topo map, and you got one hell of a nice map to work on. And for FREE too.

for those who want the higher rez maps you can get the exact paper maps scanned in electronic format from etopo.ca. Same setup but it file sizes are bigger you may land up using an addiotional SD card..

So, wondering how this setup would fair in theatre. Since GPS use would land up being very very limited the jamming issue almost becomes redundant. add in the Wifi and bluetooth technology which I haven't quite messed with and one could potentially call in motar strikes etc...off of your pocket pc just by clicking on screen which creates ythe grid reference and sends that off to company HQ for fire command control.

But not so sure if the pocket pc itself can be jammed.


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## NL_engineer (19 Dec 2005)

I use the garman etrex Vista, it is one of the best gps' on the market, and can be programed to use MGR, and the built in map has some of the roads in the Gagetown training area (surprised me). It is on the pricey side but it is worth it, if you are going to use it. Another advantage is that it uses AA batteries.

Kat, the reason garmans are slower to find single can be due to the fact that they remember the satlite locations and calculate where they should be and then look in that place.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Dec 2005)

Every civ GPS logs its last position fix in its memory.  If you boot it up more than, say, 200 Km from its last known position, it will take some time to acquire a fix.  The issue I have with the Garmins, and I've done this side by side with Magellan, is that its ability to detect a signal is far and away less than that of the Magellan.  I own them both, I've used them both, a lot, and I much prefer the Magellan.  I have nothing to gain by saying this, as I already paid full retail for both..


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## DG-41 (19 Dec 2005)

The newer Garmins have gotten much better at cold fixes.

When I turned mine on for the first time, it thought it was in Taiwan. 

DG


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## c_canuk (21 Dec 2005)

I bought a Magellan SportTrac when I was in Bosnia from the American PX truck.

I love it, fits in my combat shirt pocket, has about 8 different screens including a general map of the world which marks the path I've taken while it's on, is WAAS capable and I can display 2 map datums at the same time.

I don't rely on it for mapping though, I use it as a navigation tool to complement my map and compass... I can navigate with the GPS alone, but the thought of getting rusty with a map and compass and my GPS crapping out on me in the middle of no where frightens the hell out of me... 

(don't use wet erase marker on a mactaked map to mark a route, then use it as shelter from heavy rain unless you like 150km weekend patrols  :-[)


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## 42A (21 Dec 2005)

I have an etrax vista which is the highest end etrax in B&W.  This fits nicely in the TV and has 24MB of memory.  I had one problem with the unit was it would turn off with out notice (yes the batteries were new)

Garmin replaced the unit within a couple of weeks without problem.

I have loaded both the street and topo maps on the unit and find the coutour lines sometimes diffcult to read however my buddy has a color one and they are quite easy to read.

Cheers


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## NL_engineer (21 Dec 2005)

I have the same problem with contor lines on my vista, but it is only when dealing with steep slopes. I can't figure out how to get the altimeter in the vista to stay zeroed.


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## brihard (25 Dec 2005)

As a reservist I know my chances of seeing a PLGR in unit training are basically nil, so I picked up a MAgellan eXplorist 200. $240 or so at Canadian Tire. Cheap unit, not many features, but I can get up to 3m accuracy, it supports WAAS, and it can give me 10 figure grip refernces- though of course at 3m+ accuracy that last figure is a bit spotty, but my point is that the eight figure references can generally be taken to the bank. It's a great time saver on patrol. My map and compass is good, I can get by easily enough without it, but hell, fi I've got it I might as well save myself the time- plus it's got a dull orange backlight that's bloody convenient at night. No more drooling on my maglight. It's got a keyring connected to it, and I've paracorded it to my spare mag pouch (I keep a mag on the rifle butt), so there's room in the pouch for the GPS and a couple spare batteries.

It's nothing fancy, but it does the job and has all the absicfeatures I need as a grunt plus a few neat little bonuses. I don't see any reason to buy a $600 unit.

The only downside is it's bright yellow. I'll break out the model paint and 'tactical' it at some point...


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## Gayson (26 Dec 2005)

Does anyone know if they have civvie GPS these days that allow you to use the Differential Global Positioning System, by say giving the GPS a corrected grid off a map for a set point, reducing the accuracy of 3m to the cm or even mm range?


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## ZipperHead (26 Dec 2005)

From my limited knowledge of the DGPS (from research I did while teaching PLGR classes over the years), DGPS is based on ground based towers that do the same thing as the satellites, but with much greater accuracy (because the towers location is always the same, versus the satellites, which are constantly in motion). And from what I have figured out while researching new civvy GPS's to buy, the WAAS system is basically the same thing, which is why you can get the better accuracy over "normal" GPS units, and why WAAS isn't available everywhere (link to FAA site: http://gps.faa.gov/Library/waas-f-text.htm.

I'm not really sure why you would need accuracy to within the cm or mm, let alone within 10m, for normal applications. I know that overseas when you are marking the positions of mines, UXO's, IED's, sure, you need to be as accurate as possible, but while going for a hike being within 10m should normally be plenty good. I am quite certain that the GPS's receivers that surveying outfits and other GIS companies would use would need to be very accurate, but you would probably pay a premium for that.

Al


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## DG-41 (26 Dec 2005)

You can get GPS units that use a locally-erected secondary transmitter that do the same thing, and can get cm accuracy with respect to the transmitter.

These aren't really for large-scale navigation though. They are for things like race car data acquisition and robotics, where you don't care where the target is with respect to a map datum, but you do care about position relative to a start point.

At a race track, or a factory floor, that's ideal. Not so useful on a battlefield.

The exception is WAAS, which is supposed to be accurate enough to allow GPS-only aircraft landings, but also requires synchronization to a map datum. Same principle (GPS satellite signal to get rough position, then calibrated via a local transmitter) but less accurate than a differential setup because the "local" transmitter isn't as local as the transmitter on a differential setup.

DG


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## trucker00 (30 Dec 2005)

MadNad said:
			
		

> I would wait a little before buying Civie GPS Unit. Since Sept 05 The forces took possesion of a new GPS Unit. I had the chance to run some testing on it last summer. Excellent unit. They plan on buying 5000 units a year until 2010. It look like they will be part of soldier kit by very soon. The integration already started and will be expanded after Xmas. This new unit as all the options of the PLGR, plus much more. Map display is one of the long waited one. Much much much more user friendly and dummy proof. And fits in your Combat shirt pocket.
> 
> Don't spend money now, on a GPS unit. Just wait



Yeah, knowing the CF, Combat arms will get them and us CSS guys will be issued a compass.


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## trucker00 (30 Dec 2005)

_Yeah, knowing the CF, Combat arms will get them and us CSS guys will be issued a compass._


Because the PLGR will be out of the system.


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## Good2Golf (12 Jan 2006)

MadNad said:
			
		

> Hey.
> 
> The encryption is one of the safety that civilian GPS dont have for luxury and it is one of the major reason why i said that it could be dangerous to use Civie GPS unit in Theater.
> But there are other safety feature on the new Mil Spec GPS unit. Collins DAGR



As Posthumane noted in his post immed above yours, encryption (Y-code, the encrypted variant of P-code tx'd on L2) is not immune to jamming.  Spoofing is another issue...as noted earlier, very difficult to do to Y-code units.  If someone is jamming a C-code only-unit in theatre, this is not only a waste of time (as most veh/platform-mounted units are P/Y-code enabled) but also dangerous to the health of whatever baddy (assuming it's not US DoD elems) is doing the jamming...ELINT will feed such jamming up the chain PDQ and there'll be a unit taking out the jammers in short order.   

I think the general flavour of how guys intend to use GPS in theatre as stated here is sound, i.e. back-up/confirmation of manual nav using your trusty 1:50,000 and compass.  I use an eTrex Vista for confirmation of routing, etc...setting in routes and putting auto waypoint on is a nice back-up to navving on the map and driving around...it also provides a nice 8-figure grid if I need to call ARF/QRF on Iridium if something goes poopers with the Cruiser while I'm in the middle of nowhere...

That said, I'm looking for a civy unit, also for road mapping, etc... when I get home and doing travelling around the country (currently borrowing the eTrex Vista from a friend).  Sure, it's a bit of "nice to have" but I have to spend some of my FSP on something, right? ;D

That said, I'd like expandability, colour and good mapping (incl topo) and am looking at the Magellan Meridian Color or the eXplorist 500, with the Garmin eTrex Vista C (would prefer to have SD memory expansion, like the Meridian's....)...any more feed back from guys on similar units?

Cheers,
Duey


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## ZipperHead (12 Jan 2006)

In regards to using GPS and road mapping, I'm not sure where the maps are in terms of quality and completeness now, but when I was researching this a while back (not wholeheartedly, as I have no need, but I had an interest), the maps that were available were for the major centers (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) and to a smaller degree other bigger cities (Edmonton, Halifax). It seemed that the maps for the US were at a much higher level, but again that is usually the case (Canada vice US), but that can be chalked at to supply/demand.

An issue that I discovered, and hadn't really thought about but it makes sense, is if you are using them in the major centers with the tall office buildings (as you can lose satellite signal), you need to get a system that has another system that "takes over" (via odometer and digital compass) to figure out where you are (as the satellite signal coverage disappears). This type of system is in place in the LAVIII and Coyote for if/when the GPS craps out (or similar circumstances as mentioned above - wooded areas, valleys, etc). Admittedly that is more life/death than missing your turn in T.O, but then again if you get into the wrong neighbourhood, maybe not. Again, if you are going to be using this system in these conditions the majority (or even a lot of the time) it's worth investing in (and it DOES add quite a bit of cost, due to installation, etc).

Al


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## Posthumane (19 Jan 2006)

Grayth said:
			
		

> .........
> 
> So I my end set up landed up being like this. My pocket PC, put inside an otter Box to make it suitable for field use. Running Oziexplorer and my SD card of maps and I could technically walk out my front door and hike it to the yukon, without needing any paper maps. Plus the screen on my pocket pc is bigger than any GPS unit
> 
> ...



If your going to be using a PDA to do mapping with, might as well get a GPS receiver that attaches directly to it rather than a handheld. There are a number of them on the market which use either a serial cable to connect, or go directly through a SD or compact flash port on the PDA. With this setup, you don't have input the coors. manually, but rather have a moving map display that constantly tracks your position. The only drawback is you miss out on the versatility of a handheld receiver (can use without PDA). If you really want to have a handheld like the garmin Etrex, just get a serial cable for it and have it send position data to the PDA automatically through that.

In regards to using the PDA to call in "mortar strikes, etc.", I think that would be a very bad idea. The reason that GPS is fairly secure is that, although it can be jammed or spoofed, it is still a passive system so it doesn't transmit your position. I think using a civilian unit to transmit orders would pose a huge security risk (plus it probably wouldn't work due to the power of WiFi/Bluetooth transmitters in PDA's). 

And yes, every RF signal, be it GPS, Bluetooth, Wifi, etc can be jammed.


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## MadNad (25 Jan 2006)

In Training Site,
We use very small remote transmitter and antenna with a 24 Volts electrical system (1,8 Watt Output). nearly undetectable.
This transmit the location we want the student to see on his GPS. Each Transmitter covers an area of up to 250m from central location.
It portable and fits perfectly in a buttpack. It could be deployed anywere you want.

This system is COTS. It is a helpfull tool for running simulation and train peoples. If it can be used for training it can be used for other purposes.
If you could see what it can do, and some of us (Trainer) can have fun sometimes. Canadian Forces EW peoples are getting good at playing those little games.
Imagine calling Artillery/Mortar or Tac Air in the wrong Grid Square. We did something like that to a Section Commander that always used his civie GPS because he did not like the military issued one. We made him call a fire mission on his own location. (Simulation) He was kind of very pissed off. He basically failed and did beleive us after when we said that civi GPS are not for Ops.

Also see the GPS (PLGR or DAGR) as part of a system. Automated.(Not hunanly monitored) I.E Athena/SAS Shipbased or other. VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS


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## GO!!! (25 Jan 2006)

Am I alone in believing that the Taliban spoofing our GPS is a little far-fetched, even if it is theoretically possible?

We (and our allies) have significant EW assets in country, and even a 50Mw signature can be picked up instantly, so what is the problem?

The use of spoofing technology would only serve to garner our attention and attract an attack, so other than being a rather unreliable way to lure us for an ambush, what makes you think that their limited assets are not better used elsewhere?

It is always the sigs types who jump up and down and point out the deficiencies in our systems, but when was the last time you actually did something crafty to the enemy? 

You spoofed an NCO on an ex in Borden, good for you, lets see you save our skins or locate the bad guys.


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## DG-41 (26 Jan 2006)

> Am I alone in believing that the Taliban spoofing our GPS is a little far-fetched, even if it is theoretically possible?



Nope.

And I also believe that, were a GPS to be spoofed by the enemy, that a switched-on soldier would notice almost immediately. 

GPS is a very handy *aid* to naviation, but it isn't the only tool in the box, and I constantly cross-check my GPS against my map and what I see around me.

If it gets spoofed by more than a couple of hundred metres, I'll (probably) notice.

DG


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## Good2Golf (26 Jan 2006)

To put my past-EWO hat on, it would take a pretty high level of sophistication to both technically and intelligence-wise spoof a GPS signal by enough to make a difference, yet not enough to raise an obvious flag, and in all cases, avoid being detected by certain "assets in theatre" and subsequently having a CAS mission put some drama down on your case.

Point should be well taken, that GPS is an AID, not a primary means of navigation.  I use it to confirm what I believe my map-nav'd position solution to be...when it goes down, I still have a warm fuzzy of at least having a four and more likely six-digit grid.

Cheers,
Duey


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## eric e (1 Feb 2006)

for the best battery life the newer garmin legendC is great. AA alkalines give more than double the hours over the monochrome legend and summit. 30hr. or all day with NiMh rechargables. the multi level backlight control allows much more night use as well as with the lowest backlight current draw doesn't seem to increase much over daylight use

   the color screen is also more readable than the monochrome screens so more detail can be picked up in a quick glance. it also has 24Mb map memory instead of the 8mb of the older legend. it also uses a common "mini usb to usb"  cable to attach to your computer which means chances are your, or anyone elses, digital camera or flash memory reader cables can be used for download/upload in an emergency
   
   the latest version of garmins mapsource software, 6.9, now allows the tracks and waypoints to be viewed in google earth without having to pay google any extra $20

   the newest garmin legendCx is about to come out with a memory card slot if you need up to 128mb of map memory, (maybe if you buy topo maps or do a lot of driving you need that much memory)

the main advantage of the Cx coming out though is that dealers are now discounting the legendC heavily, US$200? 

   the helix ant./ on the magellans and bigger garmins is more directional than the patch ant. on the etrex. so a magellan will get a better signal under trees of the sats straight up but the garmin will be better able to track lots of sats in the open and so give better accuracy

  garmin "marketing", but not "support" have been very good about sending me parts out of warranty as well 

  eric e

happy garmin customer


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## Kat Stevens (2 Feb 2006)

But it STILL won't tell me where in the bejayzus I am, will it?


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## chrisf (2 Feb 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> But it STILL won't tell me where in the bejayzus I am, will it?



Well then ask for them to reinstate the LORAN location beacons.


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## armchair (8 Feb 2006)

I have been member of SAR group in B.C. for over 10 years.PEP in B.C.like groups to use Garmins etrexs I have owned Garmin 45XL ,12 and now have etrex legend C.It is so far the best one I have owned.It is simple to use. Good maps can be down load to it.Good battery life
up to 36 hours on two 1.5 volt AA batteries. It well pick up a signal inside house not like my old one that lost the signal on a cloudy day.
Have used it in a deep valley that run east west that put me well below the horizon.It worked fine.There are some good accessories for it.
The screen is small but unit is small it weight is only 5.6 ounces (159g) I can not say is any better than any of the other GPS unit because
I have not used any.


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## armchair (10 Feb 2006)

Some were in this Posting someone wrote about the GPS unit not keeping it  Altimeter zero 
 I have talked to couple people that use GPS for plotting forestry roads cut blocks etc
They told me that if you want an accurate elevation you should goto a known elevation and zero the unit to that elevation.
I asked them if they did this every time they used there units and was told only if elevation accuracy was needed.


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## Bzzliteyr (12 Feb 2006)

Which brings me to this: I am currently looking at upgrading to a newer civ GPS unit.  I am using the Etrex legend right now and am thinking about the Legend C, the Legend Cx or the 60Cs... any input?  I have all the mapping software I need including topo and I think the colour screen will be a big plus.  I am heading to the field on the 20th of Feb and am pretty sure www.gpscentral.ca can get me a new unit by that time.  Any comments?


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## NL_engineer (13 Feb 2006)

Buzz, you could move up to the Vista C. It should use the same maps/cables/ cases/etc that you have for the Legend. You should ask before you buy if the maps you have are in colour, or it will probably work the same as the one you have.


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## gun plumber (20 Feb 2006)

Rather add to an old topic than waste bandwidth,
I'm going to buy a Magellan explorist 200 GPS system and am wondering if on civilian GPS units,if the electronic compass can be set to use mils rather than deg for nav?
Not a big issue as I am using a compass as primary nav,but it would still be nice to have a reasonable back-up that uses the same units of bearing.


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## ZipperHead (20 Feb 2006)

My eTrex Summitt(?) has the electronic compass, and can be calibrated to show mils, so the Magellan SHOULD be able to, as it's a simple mathematical process to determine mils from degrees (6400(mils) divided by 360 (degrees) = 17.78 mils per degree). If it doesn't do it for you, carry a calculator  ;D. And most GPS's have a calculator built in(IIRC).

For what it's worth, the electronic compass (on my model, anyway) isn't that accurate, as it has to be perfectly level to get an accurate bearing. From what I remember when researching the different models, there are Magellan's that have better antennas (3 axes) that are more accurate. To be honest, I've only used the electronic compass a few times, and relied on my backup compass (ALWAYS carry a compass!!!) for bearings.

Al


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## Bzzliteyr (25 Feb 2006)

I highly recommend www.gpscentral.ca for any GPS stuff, ask and they WILL give a military discount though it is not listed anywhere.  I just bought a new Garmin GPSmap 60C from them and my Etrex Legend is still going strong, though it's a little beat up.  For information you can try the forums on www.geocaching.com, there a many GPS tech geeks there that can help with a lot of stuff.


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## MOOXE (15 Nov 2006)

_Am I alone in believing that the Taliban spoofing our GPS is a little far-fetched, even if it is theoretically possible?_

Its not theoretically possible. It is possible, its been done. If a GPS can recieve a signal, then someone can send a different signal for the GPS to recieve. Dont underestimate the Taliban, or Al Queda, or whomever it is. They are vast networks or people with hordes of money and fanatical support. There have been cases of GPS jamming throughout the wars of 2000. They sometimes may not be jamming your vehicle or handheld GPS specifically but they may be jamming the GPS in precision munitions (its been done). The side effect is it also affecting your GPS.

Nobody really made a strong point as to why you shouldnt use a civilian GPS so I will try.

You should NEVER, EVER use a civilian GPS in theatre for any operational goals. Not ever! A civilian GPS is very suseptible (sp?) to jamming and spoofing. Would you take the risk that your GPS can be spoofed? The result being that your leading a patrol into an ambush. If you were lucky enough to survive you'd no doubt be punted from the military since you willfully placed men and women in danger because you ignored what is right. At the very least that should be your driving factor, if the men and women behind you are not. This is pure negligence towards your duty and brethren. Think about it another way. Are you using your cellphone to call in grids of friendly positions? Well if you think that is bad, then by this same reasoning a civilian GPS is bad.

On the other subject. No it does not replace a map and compass, but a GPS is more accurate. They both have thier own jobs they are good at. With the new DAGR you can put a map in the GPS, and the DAGR acts as a satellite driven compass. Your only limitation is how well you type with your thumbs and double A batteries. The advantages of GPS far outweight the advantages of map and compass IMO, accuracy is the single most important feature. The biggest limitation of map and compass, is that most people cannot extract an accurate 10 figure plus grid on a 1:50,000 map. You NEED a GPS for this. As you can probably tell from my statements and your own experience, slowly but surely, the GPS is taking all the jobs map & compass do. Its doing the jobs with more accuracy, ease of use and more compatibility with our current comms systems, ie: SAS. Soon those that believe the GPS is a backup for M&C will believe quite the opposite.


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## ZipperHead (16 Nov 2006)

I am a firm believer in the use of technology to aid soldiers, but I think that your account, MOOXE, is a little too breathless on the capabilities and limitations of the PLGR/DAGR or any GPS receiver.

To imply that they will replace the map and compass (as a primary means of navigation) is not also heretical, but downright foolish. To rely that much on something powered by batteries and silicon chips is foolhardy and/or negligent, which you state using a civilian GPS would be due to spoofing. I would say placing the amount of faith that you do in any GPS receiver (whether it is civvy or secret squirrel) is borderline insane. Don't get me wrong: I fully believe in using them, and given the choice between carrying a GPS and carrying sniv kit, I would go with the GPS, for the reasons you gave (accuracy, ease of use, which the old PLGR didn't exactly fulfill). Saying that a map and compass will be relegated to backup status will cause people to use the GPS as the crutch that it has wrongly been blamed for in the past, and make those that rely strictly on GPS more susceptible to cases of where people will have 





> willfully placed men and women in danger because you ignored what is right


. 

There are many factors that can cause a GPS receiver to present the wrong information to the user, and spoofing is only one of the myriad ways. Environmental effects, atmospheric conditions, electrical/mechanical issues. Something as simple as having the antenna covered and not noticing the "MSF" warning (that the old PLGR gave, not sure what the DAGR has... stands for Minutes Since Fix, or when the last "good" signal was received) can cause a grid to be off by huge amounts, and if the user is poorly trained (as I was, once upon a time) a wrong grid will be plotted. It is up to the user to determine if the data presented by the GPS unit is accurate, and go from there. Use it if it appears to be accurate, bin it if it is out to lunch. And without the map (and/or compass) skills that a soldier should have, determining what is good or bad is impossible.

As an aside, a GPS without a map (whether it is old school paper or a hi-tech map embedded in a GPS) is pretty much useless, as it only tells you on earth where you are, based on radio signals. You NEED a map to plot yourself according to the grid/coordinates that the fancy-dancy machinery that the CF (or electronics store) provided you with. And your logic of 





> Are you using your cellphone to call in grids of friendly positions? Well if you think that is bad, then by this same reasoning a civilian GPS is bad.


 is unsound: too many people think that, due to all the fancy gear that we have now, there is no requirement to use good voice procedure (using reference points or veiled speech rather than using plain speech to give friendly positions). That is based on the assumption that "they" don't have the technology to crack our technology (remember the Germans and their "impenetrable" codes???) or use captured equipment to monitor our comms. A civilian GPS that *might* be spoofed is no more or no less dangerous (and I would argue far less dangerous in most cases) than someone who insists on sending friendly information in clear under the misguided notion that our "secure" comms *won't* be monitored or  breeched by "them".

Allan 
_Poorly trained user of PLGR and civvy GPS's since '96_


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## MOOXE (16 Nov 2006)

_There are many factors that can cause a GPS receiver to present the wrong information to the user, and spoofing is only one of the myriad ways. Environmental effects, atmospheric conditions, electrical/mechanical issues. Something as simple as having the antenna covered and not noticing the "MSF" warning ..._

If you use a civilian GPS and it gets spoofed or jammed, you are responsible personally. If you brought your own personal rifle to battle and it jammed and became useless in the heat of combat, what then? If you use a DAGR or PLGR and its spoofed or jammed you are not so much at fault for leading your patrol (just for the sake of an example) off course because those devices have built in measures to guard against that. The limitiations of your own military kit is not totally your fault. By using civilian kit you are taking on full responsibility when you should not. By the way, almost every condition you noted that affects a GPS can also affect a compass.

_To imply that they will replace the map and compass (as a primary means of navigation) is not also heretical, but downright foolish._

I am thinking in the future. To say the map and compass will still be our primary means of navigation in 2090 is kind of foolish. The GPS technology we use should be made good enough to replace the map and compass. The GPS system is far more accurate. It will not replace the map and compass though untill we are confident that they will never lose power, nor be jammed or spoofed.Take this example. Does a pilot of an 747 or a CF-18 cross reference his position with a physical map? I am pretty sure they dont, they have redundant systems to make sure the electronic systems are always accurate. This is what the military will eventually develop.

_As an aside, a GPS without a map (whether it is old school paper or a hi-tech map embedded in a GPS) is pretty much useless, as it only tells you on earth where you are, based on radio signals._

Why is the map on a DAGR useless? Its an exact scan of our MGRS 1:50,000 maps, geoplotted. You can plot a route on the DAGR using the maps, and using the satellite guided compass you can find your way to a point without using a physical map. Like I said though myself, your limited on battery power, you do need a map to cross reference your position to.

_is unsound: too many people think that, due to all the fancy gear that we have now, there is no requirement to use good voice procedure (using reference points or veiled speech rather than using plain speech to give friendly positions). That is based on the assumption that "they" don't have the technology to crack our technology (remember the Germans and their "impenetrable" codes???) or use captured equipment to monitor our comms. A civilian GPS that might be spoofed is no more or no less dangerous (and I would argue far less dangerous in most cases) than someone who insists on sending friendly information in clear under the misguided notion that our "secure" comms won't be monitored or  breeched by "them"._

The dangerousness of it would all depend on the situation and what value you put into those you lead. A GPS can be spoofed, leading people into an ambush. Guided munitions can be spoofed sending 2000lb bunker busters on civilian targets. Unencoded radio traffic can lead the enemy to one of our patrols. 

I think maybe you meant by far less dangerous, was its far less likely to happen? If so, you are still wrong. Its easier to jam a GPS signal since its so weak by the time it hits earth, and its not uncommon. Our TCCCS gear pumps out high wattage and is harder to jam.


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## ZipperHead (17 Nov 2006)

> If you use a civilian GPS and it gets spoofed or jammed, you are responsible personally. If you brought your own personal rifle to battle and it jammed and became useless in the heat of combat, what then? If you use a DAGR or PLGR and its spoofed or jammed you are not so much at fault for leading your patrol (just for the sake of an example) off course because those devices have built in measures to guard against that. *The limitiations of your own military kit is not totally your fault. By using civilian kit you are taking on full responsibility when you should not*. By the way, almost every condition you noted that affects a GPS can also affect a compass.



I'm not really sure what the issue whether one brings a rifle into battle that was made by the lowest bidder (issued by the CF: you have far too much faith in the procurement process to think that everything that we purchase is the absolute best) or a rifle that one bought at the store (perhaps the best that was ever built) has to do with anything: the net result is you are likely dead. Are they going to put your corpse on trial?? The issue (in my mind) is that all equipment, from low tech: a paper map can get wet and soggy, and thereby useless, if it isn't protected; to high tech: a GPS can be spoofed, jammed or the power can run out, can be rendered useless and a contingency plan must be in place. We can go around and around in circles saying that one shouldn't use a civilian (read as: non-issued kit) GPS when there is an issued one available. I think what has driven this (and similar) posts is the issue of availability: people will buy (and use) unauthorized kit when they feel that issued kit is inadequate. I myself have bought 2 civilian GPS's (one I lost or had stolen.... not sure which) and have used both IN TRAINING. I have not deployed overseas since I have purchased a GPS, but I know for a fact I will bring one if/when I do. I am capable enough in my abilities (at map reading and utilizing a GPS) to know when I would use or discard the information presented to me. Maps can be (and have been) wrong, and so can the information presented on a GPS screen. The wise man knows when to decide what to do when the occasion arises. 

_I am thinking in the future. To say the map and compass will still be our primary means of navigation in 2090 is kind of foolish. The GPS technology we use should be made good enough to replace the map and compass. The GPS system is far more accurate. It will not replace the map and compass though untill we are confident that they will never lose power, nor be jammed or spoofed.Take this example. Does a pilot of an 747 or a CF-18 cross reference his position with a physical map? *I am pretty sure they dont*, they have redundant systems to make sure the electronic systems are always accurate. This is what the military will eventually develop._

I am pretty sure that pilots do indeed cross reference a physical map (the battery life on a paper map is pretty good, I hear  8) ) when they are in doubt. Relying on redundant systems exclusively is not unlike relying on a birth control pill to be 100%. When there are 100's of people's lives at stake (747) or the mission is critical (CF-18) I suspect that the good ol' paper map will likely trump an electronic system (or 2) that says you are over the North Pole, when you are actually looking at palm trees.

As for accuracy, trying to plot a 10 figure grid (with or without a GPS) on a 1:1000000 scale map is pretty much useless. A GPS can give you a 10 figure grid, and unless your map is to a scale that you can ensure that your pen stroke (plotting your position on said map) doesn't end up being 500m wide (due to the map scale) doesn't mean much. I have only had a cursory look at the map that comes up on a DAGR, but I have downloaded maps onto my Garmin, and I can tell you that the resolution on that device (the Garmin) leaves a lot to be desired. High resolution (enough to show outstanding detail, such as contour lines, terrain features like streams, swamps, tree lines) will require HUGE amounts of memory, to the point where you would likely only be able to fit a 1 or 2 KM square map into the DAGR. Again, I don't know the technical specs of the DAGR, and have only quickly seen the map output when my buddy was taking the course recently) but the resolution is no where near what a 1:50000 map will present, let alone higher quality maps would have. Prove me wrong, and I will admit it. Actually, I have the DAGR course package on my work computer, and can check Monday for technical specs, so don't try to pull the wool over my eyes. I'm old, but crafty.

_The dangerousness of it would all depend on the situation and what value you put into those you lead. A GPS can be spoofed, *leading people into an ambush*. Guided munitions can be spoofed sending 2000lb bunker busters on civilian targets. Unencoded radio traffic can lead the enemy to one of our patrols._

I think that if I were to blame a GPS (issued or otherwise) on leading me into an ambush, I would expect to shot with a ball of my own shite. Blaming technology for something like that is like blaming McDonald's for making you fat: pretty friggin' pathetic. 

_The dangerousness of it would all depend on the situation and what value you put into those you lead. A GPS can be spoofed, leading people into an ambush. Guided munitions can be spoofed sending 2000lb bunker busters on civilian targets. *Unencoded radio traffic can lead the enemy to one of our patrols*._

And encoded radio traffic couldn't lead the enemy to one of our patrols?!?! If it transmits, it can be received, by anyone. The information might be encoded, but the signal is still detectable. You just have to have the right resources. And estimating that the enemy doesn't is dangerous.

_I think maybe you meant by far less dangerous, was its far less likely to happen? If so, you are still wrong. Its easier to jam a GPS signal since its so weak by the time it hits earth, and its not uncommon. Our TCCCS gear pumps out high wattage and is harder to jam._

I think that the wattage of a satellite vehicle pumping out it's data is pretty high: it's just that it weakens as it reaches the earth. As it goes for our radios: the further out one gets from the transmitter, the weaker the signal gets, no? As an example, I could be 20-30 km (or further) from the transmitting station. Would it not be possible for an enemy jamming station nearer to my location overpower the original transmission and thereby jam me? It's all relative.

Anyway, we're two dogs going after a different bone (to paraphase an old homey saying): you will think that you are right, and do what you do, and I will do what I think is right. It's a matter of living with the consequences. Hang me from the highest yardarm if you catch me using unauthorized gear, and you can be hung from a yardarm of equal height for relying on technology that fails. I think that one needs to utilize the best available technology, whether it is low tech (an accurate map) or super high tech (a GPS that tells me where the nearest beer store is). Just read this story as a cautionary (and amusing) tale about relying on the fancy-dancy gear: http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/20/uk-drivers-trust-gps-more-than-their-own-eyes/

Al

P.S Before you consider me a Luddite, consider that I am considered somewhat of a SME at my job (Armour School) in regards to the technology that the Armour Corps employs (tell me that isn't disturbing, as I am on the wrong side of 30) and I am the Simulation NCO for the Armour School, and I work all day on computers and other technology. I just like to think that I have seen technology fail enough to realize that you have to be able to rely on more tried and true means when the poop hits the fan. I might not be getting smarter, but I hope I am getting wiser.


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## MOOXE (17 Nov 2006)

_The dangerousness of it would all depend on the situation and what value you put into those you lead. A GPS can be spoofed, leading people into an ambush. Guided munitions can be spoofed sending 2000lb bunker busters on civilian targets. Unencoded radio traffic can lead the enemy to one of our patrols.

And encoded radio traffic couldn't lead the enemy to one of our patrols?!?! If it transmits, it can be received, by anyone. The information might be encoded, but the signal is still detectable. You just have to have the right resources. And estimating that the enemy doesn't is dangerous_

I am comparing civilian GPS to unencoded radio traffic.

_I think maybe you meant by far less dangerous, was its far less likely to happen? If so, you are still wrong. Its easier to jam a GPS signal since its so weak by the time it hits earth, and its not uncommon. Our TCCCS gear pumps out high wattage and is harder to jam.

I think that the wattage of a satellite vehicle pumping out it's data is pretty high: it's just that it weakens as it reaches the earth. As it goes for our radios: the further out one gets from the transmitter, the weaker the signal gets, no? As an example, I could be 20-30 km (or further) from the transmitting station. Would it not be possible for an enemy jamming station nearer to my location overpower the original transmission and thereby jam me? It's all relative._

Thats exactly the point I made.

_I am pretty sure that pilots do indeed cross reference a physical map (the battery life on a paper map is pretty good, I hear   ) when they are in doubt. Relying on redundant systems exclusively is not unlike relying on a birth control pill to be 100%. When there are 100's of people's lives at stake (747) or the mission is critical (CF-18) I suspect that the good ol' paper map will likely trump an electronic system (or 2) that says you are over the North Pole, when you are actually looking at palm trees._

Consider using a paper map when travelling at 600km an hour. You'd need a huge scale map, which in the end, wouldnt give you an accurate grid. Does a CF-18 pilot have room to break out a 1:250,000+ scale map while flying? I am assuming not. They may have maps on them, but they are probably for when they bail out. In any case, maps in an aircraft would be backups, not your primary means of navigation. Not to mention, at 40,000ft it may be hard to determine exactly what grid your flying above by using a paper map.

A DAGR can hold a monochrome scanned image of any type of map. If these maps are geoplotted fully, placing your cursor over any map feature will give you details about it.

Like you said, if your willing to take the risks, and endure whatever punishment may result in that, they by all means.... however...

_you can be hung from a yardarm of equal height for relying on technology that fails._

That is a pretty bold statement. The term technology goes beyond what this thread is about. For example, theres alot of tech in an M777 artillery piece, if I rely on that to get rounds on target, and it fails due to a breakdown thats not my fault. Technology is everything (like a rifle), not just electronics.


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## GO!!! (25 Nov 2006)

MOOXE,

I'm with Allan on this one.

Quite frankly, I call BS on your assertation that the Taliban will use GPS spoofing to lead us into an ambush. While on ptl, nearly all leaders of any stripe travel with a map in one hand, or a clearly defined reference point for navigation. I'd say 99% of infantry Privates could instantly tell you your location on a 1:50K map with less than 200m of error, just by the terrain and a good prior map recce (part of BP).

We would notice if all of a sudden, our GPS units stated we were on a different road or grid square than we were previously on. Nobody I know navigates with their nose buried in a GPS. They are unreliable, civvie and military alike.

Finally, we all know how adept our own CF EW has become at screwing us, in the CF around. Jamming, recreating voices, locating recce patrols, spoofing civvie GPS units - congratulations, you have justified your budget.

Now what are you doing to the enemy? When and where has it been confimed in an open source document from a reputible source that precision munitions were jammed by a target? When and where has a friendly patrol been led into an ambush by GPS spoofing? If it's so very easy and cheap to do, it should be happening all the time - right? But it's not - is it?

My intuition tells me that your answer will be "it's happened, but it's all a big secret". Your arguments are based nearly exclusively in the realm of theory, and the successes (spoofing a GPS) have happened under completely artificial conditions (CF Bases).


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## MOOXE (25 Nov 2006)

_Quite frankly, I call BS on your assertation that the Taliban will use GPS spoofing to lead us into an ambush. While on ptl, nearly all leaders of any stripe travel with a map in one hand, or a clearly defined reference point for navigation. I'd say 99% of infantry Privates could instantly tell you your location on a 1:50K map with less than 200m of error, just by the terrain and a good prior map recce (part of BP)._

I never said will. The fact is that using an unencrypted GPS will make you more vulnerable to spoofing and jamming. Not everyone buries thier head in a GPS, but *definetly* not everyone references a grid taken from a GPS on a map every time. By your theory, I would think everyone is. 

_They are unreliable, civvie and military alike._

Military GPSs are reliable. They are especially reliable when you cross reference thier grids on a map. Like I said before, a GPS can give you a 10 figure grid with an error of +/- 5meters. The most unreliable thing about a GPS is the operator. Weather and power come 2nd and 3rd.

_When and where has it been confimed in an open source document from a reputible source that precision munitions were jammed by a target? When and where has a friendly patrol been led into an ambush by GPS spoofing? If it's so very easy and cheap to do, it should be happening all the time - right? But it's not - is it?_

The DoD and News sites, cite examples of this (jamming) happening in combat, they also cite vulnerabilities of GPSs and reprucussions of using unencrypted recievers. Do a search for them, the ones quoted are not secrets. Spoofing is not easy and cheap to do to encrypted GPSs, I did not say this. Jamming is easy and cheap to do. Spoofing is easier on civilian GPSs. The Hezbollah broke into Israeli communications and exploited that very effectivley. It may not have been GPS but never the less, technology exists to break into radio communictions. Thats all GPS signals are, radio signals.

The very fact that we have anti-spoofing and encryption on our GPSs is testament to the fact that we've realized a threat and made provisions to stop it. We use encryption in our conventional radio traffic, so why wouldnt it be needed for GPS signals? If you believe that it will never happen (spoofing/jamming), or that it can even happen at all, then by that theory you should be transmitting in the clear on your radio. Remember, we are only talking about radio signals here. The only difference is a radio trasmits voice, a GPS satellite transmits data, if they are both in the clear, they are readable, spoofable and jammable. This is a fact that does not need documentation to back it up. You need documents and justification to back up your claim that it will never happen.


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## GO!!! (25 Nov 2006)

MOOXE said:
			
		

> Military GPSs are reliable. They are especially reliable when you cross reference thier grids on a map. Like I said before, a GPS can give you a 10 figure grid with an error of +/- 5meters. The most unreliable thing about a GPS is the operator. Weather and power come 2nd and 3rd.


If my PLGR was a reliable piece of kit, I would not, like thousands of other CF soldiers, have purchased my own. The DAGR is significantly better, but my e-trex still tracks more quickly and accurately, even when the DAGR has y-band enabled. 



> The DoD and News sites, cite examples of this (jamming) happening in combat, they also cite vulnerabilities of GPSs and reprucussions of using unencrypted recievers. Do a search for them, the ones quoted are not secrets. Spoofing is not easy and cheap to do to encrypted GPSs, I did not say this. Jamming is easy and cheap to do. Spoofing is easier on civilian GPSs. The Hezbollah broke into Israeli communications and exploited that very effectivley. It may not have been GPS but never the less, technology exists to break into radio communictions. Thats all GPS signals are, radio signals.


You stated it - substantiate it!
We all know jamming can be done, and we all know when we are being jammed - VHF/HF/GPS etc. Encryption does'nt prevent jamming on any system.

The Hezbollah/Israeli comparison sounds useful, but is'nt. Keep in mind that Israel is only 21 miles wide - that means a amplified, vehicle mounted 522 could cover half of Israel and Lebanon at the same time if centrally located. There are also significant civilian centers covering both of those states, making it harder to find the perpetrators. Afghanistan, being a tad bigger, would require thousands, if not hundreds of thousands jammers to be effective. Once again - what works in theory does'nt always work in real life. Additionally, Lebanon has the infrastructure and circumstances to support this (a reliable power grid, educated population, small landmass, short conflict etc.) Apples and Oranges.



> The very fact that we have anti-spoofing and encryption on our GPSs is testament to the fact that we've realized a threat and made provisions to stop it.


No, we bought it because it is the NATO standard, GPS encryption is so that the civvie side GPS signals can be "turned off" while the military ones are not, to prevent the enemy from gaining an advantage from a friendly system.



> We use encryption in our conventional radio traffic, so why wouldnt it be needed for GPS signals? If you believe that it will never happen (spoofing/jamming), or that it can even happen at all, then by that theory you should be transmitting in the clear on your radio.


Negative. VHF/HF _transmissions_ from friendly sources actually contain information that can be used proactively by the enemy to harm us. Locations, compositions etc. GPS transmissions come from a satellite, and are recieved by us on the ground, and require application to reality on the ground to be useful. Hence the name "GPS _reciever_" That's why radio traffic _transmissions_ are encrypted but GPS _reception_ is not. You understand the difference between a transmission and reception - right?

To simplify further - satellite GPS transmissions contain nothing secret - the ones we get in Wx are the same ones we get in Afghanistan - and even my e-trex has the deliberate error patch that the transmissions have downloaded and installed.


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## MOOXE (25 Nov 2006)

_If my PLGR was a reliable piece of kit, I would not, like thousands of other CF soldiers, have purchased my own. The DAGR is significantly better, but my e-trex still tracks more quickly and accurately, even when the DAGR has y-band enabled._

A PLGR is as accurate as any other GPS. We buy our own because the PLGR is big, not readily available to all troops and barely anyone in the CF has been trained to use them.

_The Hezbollah/Israeli comparison sounds useful, but is'nt. Keep in mind that Israel is only 21 miles wide - that means a amplified, vehicle mounted 522 could cover half of Israel and Lebanon at the same time if centrally located. There are also significant civilian centers covering both of those states, making it harder to find the perpetrators. Afghanistan, being a tad bigger, would require thousands, if not hundreds of thousands jammers to be effective. Once again - what works in theory does'nt always work in real life. Additionally, Lebanon has the infrastructure and circumstances to support this (a reliable power grid, educated population, small landmass, short conflict etc.) Apples and Oranges._

You assuming way to much. You dont have to jam an entire country. You just have to jam the area someone is operating in. You only need some batteries and a transmitter to make a jammer thats effective for miles. The references below will show you how easy it is to buy and emply either a jammer or spoofer.

_Encryption does'nt prevent jamming on any system._

You are right, and so was I. There are systems on the DAGR that help you through jamming. It helps prevent you from losing your current grid.

_and we all know when we are being jammed - VHF/HF/GPS etc_

No you dont. Jamming just isnt a flood of white noise. It can be selectivly jamming 1 callsign, it can be jamming your net for 1 second out of every 5. Jamming can mimic atmospheric conditions

_Negative. VHF/HF transmissions from friendly sources actually contain information that can be used proactively by the enemy to harm us. Locations, compositions etc. GPS transmissions come from a satellite, and are recieved by us on the ground, and require application to reality on the ground to be useful. Hence the name "GPS reciever" That's why radio traffic transmissions are encrypted but GPS reception is not. You understand the difference between a transmission and reception - right?_

Reception in this case, is the act of recieving a signal. Its not something you encrypt. The signal is encrypted but not the recepionn. What exactly are you trying to say? The GPS does recieve an encrypted signal. I am very aware and knowledgable of radio theory, since its ingrained in my trade (SigOp). I am also a GPS instructor, and I do know these GPSs vulnerabilities inside and out.

_GPS signals can be "turned off" while the military ones are not_

Its called selective availability.

Anyways, there is an unlimited number of references on the internet to the vulnerabilities.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/Volpe%20Slides.ppt#257,1,Slide 1
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/pana/draft-anjum-pana-location-requirements-00.txt
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/bulletin/Dual%20Benefit/warner_gps_spoofing.html
https://www.afspc.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123017018
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/global_security/space_weapons_Section_11.pdf


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## GO!!! (25 Nov 2006)

Uh huh.

*Still waiting for even one documented instance of GPS spoofing that resulted in anything bad happening.* We all know the vulnerabilities and possibilities - my point is that it has'nt happened yet, and probably won't. We could also point out that the bad guys _could_ triangulate our positions with intensity measuring equipment bought at radio shack and launch model airplanes equipped with video feeds and nerve agent to kill us all live on Al Jazeera - but it's highly unlikely.

Try to make the distinction between _vulnerable_ and _probable_ the difference is huge.

The closest reference there is states something to the effect of _Use of GPS jamming equipment by the Iraqi military during Op Desert Storm was readily identified and neutralised by US forces..._


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## MOOXE (26 Nov 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Uh huh.
> 
> *Still waiting for even one documented instance of GPS spoofing that resulted in anything bad happening.* We all know the vulnerabilities and possibilities - my point is that it has'nt happened yet, and probably won't. We could also point out that the bad guys _could_ triangulate our positions with intensity measuring equipment bought at radio shack and launch model airplanes equipped with video feeds and nerve agent to kill us all live on Al Jazeera - but it's highly unlikely.
> 
> The closest reference there is states something to the effect of _Use of GPS jamming equipment by the Iraqi military during Op Desert Storm was readily identified and neutralised by US forces..._


_

If you read back, I never said specifically that a GPS was spoofed and something bad resulted. (Its not theoretically possible. It is possible, its been done  - I did not mean in battle vs Taliban..) I am saying thats its possible, and civilian GPSs are vulnerable to it. To open this up a bit, think about ankle bracelets for people on parole. The bracelet can be left in the home, with a spoofer sending a false signal, can something bad happen?  I'll make you a bet. With the millions of GPSs out there, I'm sure theres been spoofing, and I bet something bad did happen. 




			Try to make the distinction between vulnerable and probable the difference is huge.
		
Click to expand...


You can learn from your mistakes, or you can act on intuition and avoid them.
_


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## GO!!! (26 Nov 2006)

So, you've gone from this;


			
				MOOXE said:
			
		

> You should NEVER, EVER use a civilian GPS in theatre for any operational goals. Not ever! A civilian GPS is very suseptible (sp?) to jamming and spoofing. Would you take the risk that your GPS can be spoofed? *The result being that your leading a patrol into an ambush*. If you were *lucky enough to survive* you'd no doubt be *punted from the military * since you willfully placed men and women in danger because you *ignored what is right*. At the very least that should be your driving factor, if the men and women behind you are not. This is *pure negligence * towards your duty and brethren. Think about it another way. Are you using your cellphone to call in grids of friendly positions? Well if you think that is bad, then by this same reasoning a civilian GPS is bad.



To this;


			
				MOOXE said:
			
		

> If you read back, I never said specifically that a GPS was spoofed and something bad resulted. (_Its not theoretically possible. It is possible, its been done _ - I did not mean in battle vs Taliban..) I am saying thats its possible, and civilian GPSs are vulnerable to it.   I'll make you a bet. With the millions of GPSs out there, *I'm sure * theres been spoofing, and *I bet * something bad did happen.



I'm sure your dire warnings impress recruits in Borden/Kingston/Pet wherever you are, but you were just reduced from stating the first paragraph to "betting" that something bad happened "out there" somewhere.

*If* we're ordered to use a certain piece of kit, we'll do it, but you have yet to give a good reason why.


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## MOOXE (26 Nov 2006)

I did not reduce to anything. I have proved that you are vulnerable and stated the worst kind of repercussions possible. You have to take that knowledge, weigh the risks you have to take to accomplish a mission, and go from there. If you need to learn from someone elses mistakes, or by your own mistakes that you are vulnerable, then so be it.

I can read between the lines and I do get your tone, it is adding nothing to the debate and will only serve as a warning to the mods to lock this thread.


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## ZipperHead (26 Nov 2006)

At risk of making this us a GO!!! and Al vs MOOXE dogpile (which one would argue it already is), I think that the point that GO!!! and I are trying to make is this: users of all GPS receivers (whether it is a Garmin or a PLGR/DAGR) need to realize the strengths and limitations of the equipment. As GO!!!! (and I in the past on this and other equipment) has pointed out, there are MANY people who have bought their own civvy GPS receivers, for any number of reasons: lack of kit issued, shortcomings in the issued kit (the PLGR is far from user friendly) and the relative low cost of the civilian equivalent. This just doesn't touch on the GPS issue, it spans almost all the kit at the personal level: gloves, sunglasses, slings, pouches, knives, you name it.

I would also argue that GO!!! and I are at the pointy end when it comes to the use of this gear, so we know what we need, and no amount of ranting by a GarriTrooper or other assorted PONTI's telling us what we should be using will sway us. I am not directing these slurs at you specifically MOOXE, but you are starting to stray into that territory with your blind devotion to the mantra of "Thou will not use unauthorized kit , because it is BAD!!!!!". As an example, as a CRV (combat recce vehicle) or tank commander, I would take a trace on a 1:50000 map, with all the requisite information required for my mission plotted or written on it. *IF* I had the time during BP, I would input critical information (WP's, alerts, RV's, etc) into my PLGR/DAGR. And then I would use the PLGR/DAGR as a "You are here" device as a BACKUP, to confirm my location. As GO!!!! mentioned, one can't have one's face jammed into a PLGR screen reading off data, because I have to be focussed on fighting my vehicle, sending information higher, looking for bad guys, trying not to get led into an ambush  : etc. The level of accuracy that you harp about (+/- 5 meters) is irrelevant when I only need to be in the 100-200m ballpark for my own position, as we are moving so quickly that wasting time plotting anything more than a 6 figure grid is pointless. When we set up an OP (with or without our surveillance gear), yes, accuracy is more important, and the PLGR is invaluable, but a skilled crew commander or patrol commander would easily be able to get a 6 (or even 8) figure grid by reading terrain features. And even at that, the difference between a 6 and 8 figure grid is only 100 meters, which is meaningless in the work that we do. Arty, yes. Geomatics, yes.

Until somebody in your camp (the NO unauthorized kit) camp can come up with documented concrete proof that these things (spoofing, jamming, etc) have happened, ease off on the rhetoric. It is very reminiscent of when I joined (late 80's) and everyone talked about the SIU (Special Investigations Unit, the secret squirrel branch of the MP world) and how they were everywhere, just waiting to bust people for drugs, theft, spying, etc. It was all very Big Brother-ish, and I suspect a deliberate ploy by The Man to make everybody paranoid so everybody would be good little boys. I think that GO!!! and I (and the countless other people who have used unauthorized kit) are big enough boys to know that we are liable for our own actions, and given the choice, we would prefer that the system provided us with the tools that we require to do our jobs effectively. I suspect people like yourself (MOOXE) would have gone to your deathbed stating how great the Ross rifle was (http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/rossrifle.htm) even when soldiers on the ground went after the Lee-Enfield (horrors!!! an unauthorized weapon) however they could.

Once I get trained on the DAGR, I may very well change my tune, and leave my Garmin in my follow on kit, but I will likely bring it with me anyway, as I don't have to hump my gear, and the Garmin will serve as a very good Plan B backup if my DAGR gets eaten by the Turret Monster, dropped and lost while dismounted, or even as a backup for the backup. Putting too much faith in any equipment is a dangerous thing, particularly when it is life or death.

As an aside, MOOXE, I'm not taking your arguments personally, nor should you take mine personally: I know that you are just stating the risks involved (with using civilian GPS units), but shrill proclamations without concrete proof are wasted on anybody who knows better. Yes, state the facts and the THEORETICAL risks, but don't be so naive as to think that trained, mature soldiers wouldn't call bunk on these airy-fairy concepts without proof. I wouldn't want to be the first death caused by (or the one that causes soldiers under me to die)  using a civvy GPS unit willy-nilly, but nor would I want to be in the same position using a DAGR/PLGR and not knowing that they also have limitations (they aren't any good to you if you don't have one, or aren't trained in their use). 

Al


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## MOOXE (26 Nov 2006)

_but shrill proclamations without concrete proof are wasted on anybody who knows better._

The references prove anything that needs proving. The refs also state that the equipment to spoof or jam GPSs is readily available and easy to use. EW vs GPS has been used in the Middle East and theres no reason to say it wont continue to happen. Why a concrete example is needed is confusing to me when I have provided concrete proof that the risk exists. When I say you must weigh the risks involved, the risks may be so minute that using a civilian GPS is ok. The rule of thumb is, dont use them.

I can see by the underlaying tone that our goals are different. I am simply trying to make you aware of the risks invloved. Using insults to make your point, even though you make make the point they are not directed at me is a failure on your part to substantiate your message. A good debate would have none of those undertones. But thanks anyway.


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## MedCorps (27 Nov 2006)

Interesting reading... 

The civilian GPS, God only knows that I have used it, both in and outside of Canada. 

This thread got me thinking (oh, oh).  How easy would it be for someone to jam / spoof us.  Not being nearly the EW geek that some of my friends are, I e-mailed one of them... 

Re-printed with his full knowledge.  

---

F* yeah, it could be a problem.  

This bad boy is one of the problems:  http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/wireless/gps_jam-pics.html

The Russians have lots of these things, and they don't seem to have very good kit control on them, so they keep poping up all over the place.  I suspect some Russian coy commander is selling them in exchange for money to feed his people.  The ranges in the TECHINT report are a little off, but not THAT for off (guess, never tested one).  

Because I don't read Ruskie (all that well) I would go COTS if I was going to do this.. 

http://www.grove-ent.com/rac02.html

This is as good as any product.  Or if I could find my toolbox in this crap hole I could build one.  Anyone with a little bit of electronics / electical eng training could.  Anyone who can wire up a RF det for a IED could build one.  I am not going to mail you the plans ;-) but here is where people have mentioned the issue before.  If you really care, you surf the web, I am sure you can find the plans.  Range might be an issue, and dependent on a bunch of factors it might be easier to detect than other COTS / Aviaconversia ones I mentioned. 

http://computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,77702,00.html

You mentioned that it was easy to find a GPS jamming single.  Again, without getting into details of current capabilities in the EW world, I would mention this article, which shows that it is a pain in the rear: 

http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=43404

Write more often!  I miss these e-mails

---

Cheers, 

MC


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## ZipperHead (27 Nov 2006)

MOOXE said:
			
		

> _but shrill proclamations without concrete proof are wasted on anybody who knows better._
> 
> The references prove anything that needs proving. The refs also state that the equipment to spoof or jam GPSs is readily available and easy to use. *EW vs GPS has been used in the Middle East and theres no reason to say it wont continue to happen. Why a concrete example is needed is confusing to me when I have provided concrete proof that the risk exists*. When I say you must weigh the risks involved, *the risks may be so minute that using a civilian GPS is ok. The rule of thumb is, dont use them*.
> 
> I can see by the underlaying tone that our goals are different. I am simply trying to make you aware of the risks invloved. Using insults to make your point, even though you make make the point they are not directed at me is a failure on your part to substantiate your message. A good debate would have none of those undertones. But thanks anyway.



Where are these examples that you speak of?? Better than half of the references you gave talk about civilian use of GPS (in cars, for advertising, etc). An example of this happening to Allied forces (or the Israelis) would be a nice rebuttal. Again, I don't doubt that it is possible: I fact, I know that it is very easy to do, since anybody with access to the Internet has the plans at their fingertips. But show me one case of where it has happened. When (if) we start going up against the Chinese, I might be more concerned, particularly with them messing with satellites, but I think that using our current frame of reference, A'stan, will prove that it is very unlikely. Don't underestimate your opponent, but don't turn them into 7 foot tall, invincible giants, either.

Since the risk is "so minute, the use of civvy GPS is OK". But don't, because it's a rule of thumb. OK. I sense a career in politics for someone after their military service.  

And here is a thought: wouldn't someone who is spoofing and/or jamming GPS signals be transmitting (on a widely known frequency, no less) and thereby susceptible to our side taking action? I agree, again, that it is possible (jamming/spoofing), but again, has it ever been used against any Allied forces, or is it only in theory possible? 

I think that we can agree on one point: education is critical. Too many people are unaware of exactly how their PLGR/DAGR works (a good chunk don't even realize it works via simple radio waves), and are far more likely to be lead astray, whether by a simple loss of signal (due to not having antenna in good position/location) or inability to tell when the damn thing is acting up. I'm sure that there have been people lost on operations, and then proceed to blame their GPS/PLGR/DAGR for getting them lost, because they spent more time reading the display, and less time referring to terrain, landmarks, and their map. Which brings me back to: a sound knowledge of map and compass is critical to using equipment such as this, as an over reliance on technology without the low tech skills is a recipe for disaster. People have fallen so much in love with the PLGR (and soon the DAGR) that there is (was?) only a cursory knowledge of map and compass taught to recruits, and then a dump truck load of PLGR trg. A PLGR without a map is near useless (I have done training using only waypoints input into the PLGR, and then navigating from WP to WP without a map, but that was on a more advanced course (Armour Recce Specialist Course)). Again, the DAGR, from what I have heard, read and seen, is a step forward, but I don't think that we'll be getting rid of paper maps for some time (call me a dinosaur.....).

Al


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## Garett (31 Dec 2006)

Yes I did a search.

So, I'm looking to jump into modern times by buying a GPS.  I've read all the posts on a few websites about makes and models but can't find anything definitive on rechargeable vs. good old AA's.  I'm thinking a rechargeable GPS would be ideal but probably too hard to recharge on a long exercise or extended operation, especially if dismounted.  Any advice from those in the know?


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## old man neri (31 Dec 2006)

How bout a GPS with rechargeable AAs, it would seem to be the best of both worlds. Just make sure if you do this to get the Ni-MH batteries.


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## HERC (31 Dec 2006)

Definitely go with something that uses normal batteries and not a specialty battery proprietary to that particular unit.  All the general purpose Garmins use AA.  That way if you're in a pinch you can buy batteries.

Like mentioned above get some rechargeable NiMH batteries 2500 milli-amp hour or higher.  These don't develop a memory but should be cycled at least three times to get their maximum capacity out of them.  Drain completely, charge and repeat.  The cold will affect these batteries and give you less operating time but generally you'll be okay, especially if you turn the unit off and keep it in your pocket.  Or, get a unit with an external antenna and hang it off your pack or mount it if used with a quad or sled.

I use my GPS units a lot in the winter and I just stick it in my pocket when not in use.  The acquire satellites quite quickly when powered up.  This works okay for position checking but won't work too well if you're trying to track your exact route.

Cheers,  Shayne


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## gaspasser (31 Dec 2006)

Not meaning to be old school and all but I'm sure some of the Inf School fellers will back me up.
Learn how to read a map and compass.  Become an expert to the point where you don't need the compass.
No need for batteries.


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## GO!!! (31 Dec 2006)

Always get the disposable batteries option.

Others may differ, but I find it easier to carry a bunch of double As in my gear than a generator and extension cords.  ;D

On some exes I've been on, we have been without power for more than a week in a patrol base etc. 

And yes, being a flawless navigator is always the best method, but I find most of the "human GPS" guys I know really just know the training areas really well. You can never have too many backups, this is just another tool with a time and place to use it.


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## Franko (31 Dec 2006)

A GPS is a tool that enhances your ability to navigate. I use it as a way to confirm a location, after I've used my map and compass skills.

I swear by using a AA GPS. At least if the camp that your in has no power, you can still ADREP in AA batteries.

Regards


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## dookie (11 Jan 2007)

I have a Magellan eXplorist 600.  It has a rechargeable battery and comes with an alkaline battery adapter as well.  Best of both worlds.


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## Sapper6 (16 Mar 2007)

Just bought a Garmin eTrex Summit at Canadian Tire for 1/2 price (~$120).  Plan is to do some geo-caching with the kids. I'll report back on how it goes.  

S6.

Note: was looking for a cheap hobby that involved going outdoors with the kids...I know, I know...geo-caching is borderline geekdom....well, it was either that or join the Frontiersmen (sp?)...


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## Kat Stevens (16 Mar 2007)

As stated earlier, I have a Garmin eTrex Legend.  The ability to operate in any kind of canopy is crap, even a cloudy day can shag up the signal.  I'm also not very happy with the mapping accuracy, but that's part of living in Toolietown Alberta.  You paid an excellent price though, Rod... good score!

Geocaching is not geekdom, it was cool when it was called orienteering and used map and compass, and a little mid tech can't hurt its rep that bad, can it?


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## Jarnhamar (16 Mar 2007)

> Just bought a Garmin eTrex Summit at Canadian Tire for 1/2 price (~$120).  Plan is to do some geo-caching with the kids. I'll report back on how it goes.
> 
> S6.



My friend got the same one and I had himbring it back.
His didn't come with any cables to hook it up to a PC and it had the old 4 gold prong connecter style thing which requires another cord that allowes it to patch into a USB port. Not sure if yours will need that but my old one did and the piece was pricey.

My friend ended up picking up the Garmin Ledgend CX.  I use the Garmin Vista CX and if your willing to spend th emoney on them their just amazing.
The summit, if I recall, doesn't let you put bigger memory cards in them right?  Garmin seems bad for that. Only their higher end GPSs give you expanded memory (Magellen seems much better in this department).

Depends what you wanna use it for and if your loking for a simple you are here then the summit is probably okay. (I still didnt like the lack of expandable memory and no cables).

ps. Listen to Kat Stevens when it comes to GPSs. I'm glad I did.


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## LordOsborne (16 Mar 2007)

My first GPS was a Garmin Etrex which I later sold in favour of a Magellan Explorist 200. Both are fairly basic; the Magellan is a little more capable because of the built-in map. I've also found that although both were WAAS capable, I never managed to acquire WAAS with my Garmin. The Magellan also seems better at aquiring more satellites. The only gripe I have with the Magellan is the really basic nature of the map, showing only rough coastlines and highways (although, it is only a basic model) and the small size of the buttons makes it hard to manipulate with gloves.

That being said, I'd rather use a DAGR than the Magellan. I'd like to have the opportunity to see a DAGR with a map uploaded, just to see how the two compare.


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## vita per veneratio (21 Mar 2007)

I recently bought a Magellan explorist 100 with the assumption that I could figure out how to use it for military application.  I was infact wrong.  If there is anybody out there that could tell me what map unit to use and what datum, and maybe explain to me a little something about it.  I was told to the map unit UTM with NAD27 as my datum.  If I look at a map while using these settings, it doesn't appear to make any sense.


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## willy (21 Mar 2007)

Set it to MGRS-new, 100 meter and check your local map to see what datum to set it to.  You can't always use NAD 27- it's dependent on the map in use.  It'll now give you a 6 figure grid.  Hopefully you'll be ok from there.


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## lostrover (21 Mar 2007)

Just to throw somethign else into the fire........

WAAS (although a great marketing ploy) in only available within the United States and very small portions of Canada, last check there were only 3 transmitters active within Canada.  A WAAS signal is not available within 1 hour north of Pet.  Civilian GPS units for the most part provide accuracy to 15-30 meters (even with SA turned off), thus you still need the ability to use a map and compass, most importantly how to read a map.  Although not user friendly the PLGR is the way to go for the nitty gritties of it all.


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## Donut (21 Mar 2007)

lostrover said:
			
		

> Just to throw somethign else into the fire........
> Although not user friendly the PLGR is the way to go for the nitty gritties of it all.




PLGR has/is being replaced by DAGR, which I understand is a more user-friendly interface.

DF


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## medaid (29 Mar 2007)

It is! I'll attest to that, I used it on an ex once. Just be going through the screens it was quite easy to figure out!


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## LordOsborne (29 Mar 2007)

+1 on that. DAGR is smaller, lighter, more durable, more capable and much easier to use than the PLGR. One of the features i got to play around with was the functionality between it and the Vector Binos. By plugging them together, pointing the binos at a target, and pushing both buttons, it sends an exact grid to the DAGR, which I imagine makes giving target co-ordinates amazingly fast and painless.


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## Sapper6 (30 Mar 2007)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> ...didn't come with any cables to hook it up to a PC and it had the old 4 gold prong connecter style thing which requires another cord that allowes it to patch into a USB port. Not sure if yours will need that but my old one did and the piece was pricey...The summit, if I recall, doesn't let you put bigger memory cards in them right?  Garmin seems bad for that. Only their higher end GPSs give you expanded memory...
> 
> Depends what you wanna use it for and if your loking for a simple you are here then the summit is probably okay.
> 
> ps. Listen to Kat Stevens when it comes to GPSs. I'm glad I did.



FD,

You know, you're right!  I had no idea.  I suppose I should have checked here first and listened to Kat like you said.  Oh well, you get what you pay for.  I don't intend on doing any heavy-duty GPS work.  I am hoping it should provide enough accuracy to do Geo-caching....outside....on a sunny day....when the wind is just right....and the moons are aligned.... lol.

S6


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## JVJA (5 Apr 2007)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> The Summit is quite good. A big part of the GPS is the software/applications you get for it. The maps are expensive, but worth it if you have a mapping GPS. I would highly recommend buying Oziexplorer (link: http://www.oziexplorer.com/ ). The beauty of this software is you can load in scanned maps (any map for that matter), calibrate it, and you are good to go in planning out routes, WP's, etc. It doesn't upload the map, however, to your GPS.



For the GPS users out there, effective 1 Apr 07, NR Can has released most , if not all of the digital 1:50000 map sheets for the country. (And more)  And the beauty is they are all free!  Previously, you had to go to a third party and purchase the map sheets you wanted.  So like Mr. Luomala mentioned, if you have a program like Oziexplorer, or something similar you can plug data in to your GPS to your hearts content.  I didn't check any of the training areas, but it had all 10 sheets I needed.

Here's a link:   http://tinyurl.com/2mjwsd


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## Kat Stevens (5 Apr 2007)

Excellent link, thanks!


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## ZipperHead (6 Apr 2007)

Skip, brilliant link!!! Thanks for this. I am going to take a quick look for some areas that I am interested in. Gold!!!

Allan


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## ZipperHead (6 Apr 2007)

Just took a look for the Gagetown trg area map ( 021G09, Hampstead, NB ). The good news: it's there. The bad news: it's from 1980/1983. The terrain hasn't changed, but a lot of the details have (roads, buildings, etc). For free, better than a poke in the eye. It's 300dpi, BTW, which is good quality. With any luck there might be newer maps for other areas, but again, you get what you pay for.

Thanks again, Skip.

Al


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## JVJA (6 Apr 2007)

No problem.  I was quite happy when I saw the news.  So much for my other plans for the long weekend!

   (And thanks to Kat Stevens for the Magellan recommendation)

   You are right, I downloaded ten 1:50000 and noticed six of the sheets I wanted were older (mid eighties), and four were 99/00.   I also grabbed two 1:250000, and they were early eighties but at that scale......

   I don't know how often they revise their data, but hopefully it will be updated as they go.  Coupled with Oziexplorer this makes a powerful tool.

   Take it easy


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## 241 (6 Apr 2007)

So how do you download the maps, as far as I can get is:

 http://www.geogratis.ca/geogratis/en/product/metadata.do?controller=7000C8A972CE1CADC71362CF71C7250E-1175882926420&index=2


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## ZipperHead (6 Apr 2007)

241, try this link: http://www.geogratis.ca/geogratis/en/product/search.do?locate=true

It should give you a map of our fine country, and every time you click in the location you want, it zooms in a little further. Once you get the area locked in, hit the "Search" button at the bottom of the page (refine the search if you want by date). Then put a check in the box for the mapsheets you want, and it will bring you to a "Checkout" (like many e-commerce sites), but the good news is that it's a free download (good to see our taxdollars amount to something  ).

And from there, you should be good to go. BTW, the longer the map sheet name is (092K03 vs 092K) indicates it is more detailed. In the example I gave, 092K is 1:250000 and 092K03 is 1:50000 (the only 2 available via this one-time, limited offer..... j/k)

Al


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## 241 (6 Apr 2007)

Thanks the last time I tried that it wouldn't install the active X controller but it worked this time. Thanks again  ;D ;D


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## 241 (6 Apr 2007)

One last stupid question, how do I convert MGRS to lat/long with out having to manually enter all the grids as waypoints in my GPS (they are all of an area an hour and a half away from here) and then changing my GPS to LAT/LONG?


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## JVJA (6 Apr 2007)

241,   *Forget I posted this, I read you backwards*

   You can try this link.  I entered my Lat/long and selected UTM (WGS 84) under the "Grid" tab.  When I hit convert, it provided the proper Grid Zone Designation, 100,000 m Square ID, and a 10 figure grid. 

It was accurate for me  YMMV             http://tinyurl.com/2okoth

Take it easy

Skip


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## 241 (7 Apr 2007)

Skip_ not a problem I went to the Canada post web site and looked up the postal code of the nearest town and was able to find the map I was looking for that way.  Anyone have anyidea how to find the current Wainwright map we are useing, or do they not have it on here, I know one of the guys at my unit had a link on the DIN for some maps web site but never forwarded it to me before he left for the regs.


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## kierankyllo (10 May 2007)

I was briefly introduced to the CF DAGR system and although i never used the PLGR from what i hear from the others in my section the DAGR is head and shoulders above the PLGR and most any other civy GPS.  We were also briefed on the dangers of using civy GPS in the field especially when you are sharing important coords with people using military grid systems and map datums.  The DAGR also uses crypto, is compatible with NVG's, is shock/water proof, has long battery life.  Most importantly it is easy to use.  We were also warned never to use specifically the garmin rino because it broadcasts your position to other rino users. Bad idea.


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## willy (10 May 2007)

The fact that we now have a GPS unit that offers greater user friendliness than the PLGR is fantastic.  Not only does the DAGR have equally good or better bells and whistles type features as compared to most mid- to low end civvy GPS units, but the military- specific features it offers are outstanding.  It's an awesome piece of kit, and we should use it as much as possible so as to get the greatest possible number of people familiarized with it.  Train as you fight.

Now that said, there's no good technical reason not to use a civvy GPS unit in a domestic context, especially if that's all you have.  We seem to have more of the DAGR's than we ever had of the PLGR's, which is good, but there still aren't enough to give one to everyone who might benefit from having one.  Sure the DAGR can use crypto.  By far the majority of guys who use a GPS domestically aren't going to do so.  A civvy GPS is exactly as accurate as an unkeyed miltary one unless there's something wrong with it.

Don't use FRS equipped GPS units- that's different, and there's a whole other thread on that.  But if the crown can't give you a DAGR and you don't want to get lost, there's no good reason to not use your own.


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## FMRWO (16 Jul 2007)

I've been using the Garmin Rino 110 & 210 for a few years now. Bought the units in Fla to benefit from added features.. They are great devices... but they can be jammed ! 

The 1st time it happened to me I was walking on the deck of a cruise ship, as I got closer to the radar tower my screen went blank and my unit was unresponsive. Couldn't turn it off/on ... had to take out the batteries & reinsert to get it going again. 

2nd time I was standing on shore when a Navy Frigate (Swedish Navy) passed close by... again my Rino went dead ... (same cure)

I don't know if other GPS units can also be affected in this manner but I'd be concerned in an Op theater ... a dead GPS can be a pain at best ...


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## DG-41 (20 Jul 2007)

The Rino does its position-broadcast trick by prepending your location to the front of any radio transmission (including the alert-call alarm)

This can be disabled explicitly in the unit, or by turning the radio portion off.

DG


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## adaminc (20 Jul 2007)

I'd say get a PocketPC or PDA and a Sirf Star III GPS Reciever for it


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## Kat Stevens (7 Sep 2007)

This just in:  Canadian Tire has the E-Trex Summit on sale for $129.99.  That's half price, for the mathematically challenged!  While I'm no great advocate of Garmin (gee, ya think?),  you won't get a better deal on a "you are here, and you've been there" unit.   Worth a look see.


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## RangerRay (8 Sep 2007)

Personally, I bought the Garmin eTrex Legend Canadian Tracker Pack (eTrex Legend, Topo Canada mapping software, interface cable, and handy-dandy carrying case) for $199 at Sprawl-Mart ($179 for the eTrex Legend alone, or Topo Canada alone at Crappy Tire).  It's not bad.  It's suitable for my recreational needs.  The MapSource maps are not the greatest.  Sometimes the monochrome maps make it hard to differentiate between roads and contour lines.  And it would be nice to have more than 8MB of memory so I could download more maps onto it.  All in all though, I'm quite happy since it meets my recreational needs.

For work, I have a Garmin Vista Cx with custom maps of my district downloaded onto it.  Definintely a lot nicer with more features and more memory, but a little steeply priced for me to purchase for my own recreation.

I always use it in conjunction with a paper map to confirm my location.

I've never tried any of the Magellan Explorist units, and I don't know anyone who has.  After reading these posts, I perhaps should have investigated them more.


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## DirtyDog (23 Jun 2009)

Hate to ressurect an old thread but I didn't want to step on any toes and start a new thread.  I did a search and didn't see anything more current.

Anyway, I would greatly appreciate (current) recommendations on which civi GPS to get.  I have only done some preliminary research and have been considering either a Oregon or Colorado Garmin unit as I'm drawn to their interfaces (touchscreen and thumbwheel) but I'm really not sure if they are suitable for the military.  Keep in mind it will be going overseas as I was told it's a good idea to bring one.

Thanks


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## Fusaki (23 Jun 2009)

It depends on your job, man.

As a dismounted signaller, I have a Garmin Foretrex 101.  I took the wrist strap off, attached a 550 dummy cord, and I keep it in my pocket and tied to my belt.

- Unlike the newer 201 and 301 models, the 101 runs off AAA batteries.  I never have to worry about charging an integral battery in the field because I just ADREP fresh ones.

- The trip computer can be customized and is very user friendly.  You can set it up so that your grid, bearing, and time to destination are available at a glance.

- It's very small and therefore convenient to carry on you all the time.

- It's a very streamlined GPS. It has the bare necessities of functions, easy to use and set up.  There is no electronic compass, but a GPS can't replace an old school magnetic compass so you'd be carrying both anyways.

- I used to have a more capable Garmin Vista, but I prefer the Foretrex for the above reasons.

Maybe if you're a LAV CC you'll want something more elaborate with colour and maps, but for a dismounted guy looking for a fast and light nav aid, I don't think you can beat the Foretrex 101.


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## TN2IC (20 Mar 2011)

I'm still new to the whole GPS world. Wife drags me out geocaching on our borrowed GPS. I want to invest into a GPS for geocaching and for hiking. User friendly. I always enjoy rucksac marching into the wild. And I like to know what distance I cover, with the GPS. I could never figure it out on the loan GPS.  I want to be able to start at one point. And during the march, just take a peek at it, to see for far I went. 


                 Any suggestions for my own GPS? More looking at the Garmin line. I'm pretty new in this field. So please don't bash me too hard.  ;D


Regards,
TN2IC


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## aesop081 (20 Mar 2011)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> I'm still new to the whole GPS world.



You VCR at home flashes 12:00 doesnt it ?

 ;D


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## GnyHwy (20 Mar 2011)

It is quite simple to do even with the loaner GPS you have.  Some GPSs will continously count your distance but, all GPSs will be able to do what I am about to tell you.  Before you start "Mark" (save) your location.  Everytime you make a change in course (a significant one) mark that point as well.  Do this for  each "waypoint" in your march.  At the end, using the route function or distance between points, take all the legs of your route, add them together and voila.

If you are going to buy a GPS just talk to a salesman and let him know what you want it to do.  Don't spend too much. Buying a top of the line one will just get you an expensive GPS with a ton of functions that you won't likely use anyway.  Go cheap (you can always trade up at a later date).  Even the cheapest one will do what I mentioned above.  Try Kijiji, an old used one will do you just fine for starters.


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## ModlrMike (20 Mar 2011)

Either of the Garmin ETrex or Magellan Explorist entry level devices will meet your needs. As TN2IC says, you don't need to spend a fortune here. Check the local sales boards.


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## Navalsnpr (20 Mar 2011)

Here is one of the best Canadian GPS sites... Bought mine there:

http://www.gpscentral.ca/


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## BernDawg (20 Mar 2011)

I only have 2 words of advice for any prospective GPS buyer GAR-MIN!!!  I have a Magellan and it stays in it's case while I use my Garmin vehicle GPS in "walk" mode.
If you would like to get the whole anti-magellan rant shoot me a PM.

 :2c:
Bern


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## ConstantiaPS (25 Mar 2011)

I have several GPS's.   The Etrex is a decent lower level one, however, you can pick up Bushnell Onyx 400's for around the same price ($100.00).   They are $600.00 GPS's but are being phased out.   Not only do they do color maps, but they incorporate XM Radio, so you can get weather overlays.   Con is they aren't well supported anymore, and they are a little large.   Stll, for the price, they do EVERYTHING.


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## matt.flaig (21 Apr 2011)

I use the Garmin eTrex Legend H (its about $130) good accuracy and waterproof, just sucks when your in buildings, oh and they take AA batteries. here is a link to their page; http://www.gpscentral.ca/products-handheld.html


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## Jarnhamar (14 May 2012)

Was experimenting with my gps placement and curious how others carry theirs and feedback.

I'll have a compass in my breast pocket with a cut down map somewhere in my pants
Gps wise I carry 2.

Next I'll have a farming vista cx (with uploaded topi graphical maps) in a pocket on my tacvet.(usually front grenade pocket)

Finally a garmin fortrex. (101 but I'll be upgrading to the 401)
I started with it on my wrist but didn't like it there so attached it to the outside of my vest- using it for quick grid checks an direction.  Recently I've tried attaching it to the hand guard of my rifle for patrolling.  So far te simple bearing/direction function is working really well.   Anyone have other feedback or unique setups?


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## Armymedic (14 May 2012)

Pouch on hip belt or tac vest.

Also carry a compass and map.

I am old school. I use the compass and map to get me going in the right direction. I use the gps to tell me where I am right now.


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## PuckChaser (14 May 2012)

I have a flip down panel I wear on my left shoulder since thats the only place on the TV I can attach it.


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## aesop081 (14 May 2012)

2 are built in the aircraft and the other in the front right pocket of my survival vest.

Oh, wait...... ;D


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## Dkeh (14 May 2012)

As a Platoon Signaler, I find it most useful on my wrist, for those quick SITREPS, LOCSTATS, and other fun such things. 
As a Rifleman, the DAGR sits in my C9 pouch, and is only used to confirm locations. I prefer the Map and Compass for navigating, as it gives you a more visceral feel.


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## Danjanou (14 May 2012)

The one the wife begged for her car two Christmas ago is still in the box somewhere in her closet. Mine's an app on my BB.
Didn't have fancy gadgets when I served, Silva compas on a lanyard , left breast pocket.


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## OldSolduer (14 May 2012)

Since I am now, or will be considered, old and decrepit, the troops insist I ride and try to refrain from touching shiny objects with buttons that make them do wonderous things.


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## MikeL (14 May 2012)

I have a Garmin Foretrex 401,  I wear it on my wrist and works good like said above for those quick sitrips, contact reports, etc  Always in the back of my mind to keep an eye on it as I don't 100% trust that wristband retention for the 401.


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## LineJumper (14 May 2012)

In my mind, M+C works for me.


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## BernDawg (14 May 2012)

My hand-held is in my glovebox, at the bottom, under some useful stuff like left over ketchup packets... It's a Magellan and I hate it  

My Garmin, on the other hand, is firmly attached to my dashboard.  ;D


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## cupper (14 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Since I am now, or will be considered, old and decrepit, the troops insist I ride and try to refrain from touching shiny objects with buttons that make them do wonderous things.



But you can always one up them by asking what they'd do when the batteries died. :nod:

I carry my GPS in my iPhone. Now.... Where did I put my iPhone?


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## Sigs Pig (15 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Since I am now, or will be considered, old and decrepit, the troops insist I ride and try to refrain from touching shiny objects with buttons that make them do wonderous things.


But you have that magical power to mention "I would like to go here..." and you are instantly brought there. Or else the troops will feel your wrath! Similar to Kirk with the transporter... HA!

ME


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## Jarnhamar (15 May 2012)

Using the wrist gps mounted on the rifle was hit and miss in the heavy brush. Moved it to my wrist and comformed i hated it. Ended up moving it to my vest.

Also realized that using Google earth on a smartphone is VERY handy- I was
shown afterwards a giant pond that wasn't on a map or Areal photo but there plain as day on Google earth.  Does Google Earth have a mgrs converter?

Are the new touch screen gps's very fragile?


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## Tank Troll (15 May 2012)

Right hand corner of the G wagon windsheild, when i dismount it is................. oh wait I'm Armour I never dismount ;D


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## Dkeh (17 May 2012)

Google Earth PRO can utilize MGRS. I have used this to varying degrees of success off my Android. Ultimatly, it is an EXCELLENT planning tool...when you have cell phone signal. 

http://support.google.com/earth/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=40901

Check the release notes for version 5.2


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## wildman0101 (12 Jul 2012)

Map,,, Compass,, pacemeter. Nuff said. LOL


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## Loachman (13 Jul 2012)

If one is a keen Jihadi eager to train for the latest recommended suicide-bomb-concealment technique, one could always jam it up one's...


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## BernDawg (13 Jul 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> If one is a keen Jihadi eager to train for the latest recommended suicide-bomb-concealment technique, one could always jam it up one's...


As long as you agreed to the requisite "pre-treatment" they recommended.....


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## ModlrMike (13 Jul 2012)

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> Map,,, Compass,, pacemeter. Nuff said. LOL



When I first read that I thought it said "pacemaker".  :rofl:


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## grandin105 (1 Feb 2013)

Hi, I understand this is a old topic, but if any one still looks here, here is my question:

Has any one tried the Garmin Fenix GPS watch? Or any new Suunto GPS watch?

Advice? Ideas? Thanks.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2013)

Might as well tag this on here.

I'm looking at replacing my Garmin Etrex Vista but can't decide between the;
new remodeled Garmin ETrex 30 [ https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=87774  ]   or 
the  Garmin Oregon 450  [ https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=63349 ]


I'm pretty comfortable with the Etrex design but find that putting a lot of nav points in on the go or in a hurry can be tedious and was thinking a touch screen might be faster.

That said I'm not sure how reliable touch screen GPS's are plus the Orego 450 is the bottom end of that model line.

Any suggestions?


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Mar 2013)

I'm an owner of and huge fan of the GPSMAP 62s.  Awesome GPSr.  I opted for the better antenna over touchscreen.  Glad I went with the 62s.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2013)

Nice. A better antenna makes a great argument, that might be a little out of the allowable price range, still with that site you're saying $150.


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## Jungle (26 Mar 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm looking at replacing my Garmin Etrex Vista but can't decide between the;
> new remodeled Garmin ETrex 30 [ https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=87774  ]   or
> the  Garmin Oregon 450  [ https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=63349 ]
> 
> ...



I have owned an Oregon 200 for four years, and it still runs like new. I use it all the time. It is discontinued now, but if I was to change it, I would stay in the same line and get another Oregon.


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## Ayrsayle (29 Mar 2013)

grandin105 said:
			
		

> Hi, I understand this is a old topic, but if any one still looks here, here is my question:
> 
> Has any one tried the Garmin Fenix GPS watch? Or any new Suunto GPS watch?
> 
> Advice? Ideas? Thanks.



Might be a moot response, but:  I'm a pretty big fan of the Garmin Fenix and it replaced a stolen Garmin Foretrex 401.  It's small, compact, and can take its fair share of abuse.  The only disadvantage I've found is it has its own unique method of charging (Via USB, which requires a power source), which a GPS with simple AAA requirements doesn't have to deal with.  Even still, the buttons are big enough to use with gloves, and it doesn't restrict wrist movement.  Can't really speak to the Suunto GPS, but it seemed to be popular with others.


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## Poacher434 (22 Apr 2016)

All I want is a button to turn the GPS on, and a button to give me a 10 fig grid.

I don't need to be able to upload maps, plot grids, shoot bearings, etc etc. All of those applications take mere seconds to pull out a map and compass.

I am looking for a small personal GPS that I can keep in the pack until something happens and I need an immediate 10 figure grid and a resection is out of the question..

Any suggestions?


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Apr 2016)

My Garmin Rino 655T will do that, but it has too many bells and whistles. It might befuddle an infanteer. ;D


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## Poacher434 (22 Apr 2016)

Exactly! I need a fool proof two button system. I don't want to try and find a grid and accidentally reroute some NASA satellite and end up more lost. (That being said I never get lost)


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## krimynal (22 Apr 2016)

Poacher434 said:
			
		

> Exactly! I need a fool proof two button system. I don't want to try and find a grid and accidentally reroute some NASA satellite and end up more lost. (That being said I never get lost)




Sir Sir we got a Satellite on the loose !!!

Gawd Freaging damnit , poacher's at it again !


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## noneck (22 Apr 2016)

Garmin Foretrex 401

https://buy.garmin.com/en-CA/CA/on-the-trail/wrist-worn/foretrex-401/prod30026.html

Wears like a watch, no fuss no muss! I saw them in the CANEX in Edmonton for about $150.


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## expwor (22 Apr 2016)

Just a thought, do you have a smartphone.  Many have gps and map apps built in.  Maybe that will suit your needs
Just a thought.

Tom


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## Poacher434 (22 Apr 2016)

Unfortunately phones are a hit and miss in a lot of training areas


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## runormal (22 Apr 2016)

Poacher434 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately phones are a hit and miss in a lot of training areas



Have you tried Tac Nav? I know it is available on Android, likely iphone as well. I've found it works pretty well where I've been. It is around $5 but it was very good purchase.


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## Loch Sloy! (22 Apr 2016)

Poacher434 said:
			
		

> All I want is a button to turn the GPS on, and a button to give me a 10 fig grid.
> 
> I don't need to be able to upload maps, plot grids, shoot bearings, etc etc. All of those applications take mere seconds to pull out a map and compass.
> 
> ...



As per a prior recommendation, definitely consider the Garmin Foretrex 401. Uses 2 aaa batteries, has been super reliable for me and is small and light. I usually keep mine attached to the tacvest rather than on my wrist but that's just a preference. They do eat batteries in cold weather unless you use lithiums which can be hard to find (and expensive) in aaa size.

I see they are available on amazon.ca for $220 CAD ish.


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## sidemount (22 Apr 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> Have you tried Tac Nav? I know it is available on Android, likely iphone as well. I've found it works pretty well where I've been. It is around $5 but it was very good purchase.



i've been using an app called grid nav. Its free, gives me a nice 10 figure grid and have had no issues at any location in the pet, wainwright, borden, and meaford training areas.

If you are looking for a bit more options but still free....get GPS test. This app has been extremely valuable especially when fault finding the M777 GPS.

Other than that, I'll also recommend the Garmin Foretrex....great little GPS!


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## runormal (22 Apr 2016)

Thanks for the GPS recommendations, always good to have to spares. I just downloaded those.


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