# BFT



## 043 (1 Mar 2005)

Lets hear the opinions out there on this one. I am going to vote no because I think that no one should even know that there is going to be a BFT. You should get bugged out to do it once a year.


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## big bad john (1 Mar 2005)

Find a mate and work out all year round.  I mean you are Soldiers aren't you.


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## 043 (1 Mar 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> Find a mate and work out all year round.   I mean you are Soldiers aren't you.



BBJ,

I totally support just going out and doing it. No workups, no pre-training. If you can't do it without workups then I am sorry but, hey, pick another line of work.

CHIMO


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## big bad john (1 Mar 2005)

Exactly.


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## Block 1 (1 Mar 2005)

Now most soldiers believe there should be no workup training. That's good if you enforce all members to ensure they keep fit. We all know there's people in uniform out there avoiding PT like its the black plague. I call them people, because their not soldiers, only soldiers ensure their fit and ready for missions. Unless their recovering from medical conditions caused from trg or OPs. And stating your a tech doesn't cut it ! The military gives you time to workout and in most cases are willing to give you more time, if you ask for it. I know this because in my job now, I get some 2-3 hours a day â Å“outstandingâ ? now that's because I asked for it so I can keep fit and motivated. So until we and the chain of comd sorts this out the hiders and skivers. We will be stuck with pre training. Necessary no not for the soldier !    :gunner:


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Mar 2005)

There is mandated work up training, to avoid injuries.  It slowly increases time, distance and weight.  A couple of years ago I went to one of the work up trg sessions at LFCAHQ, and quickly got bored with the time that we were aiming for.  My CSM was away, so..."breaking in to double time" (or near enough) was the order of the day.  I got it over with quickly (amidst much grumbling from the other pers on the march with me) and went back to work.  

The next day, my CSM "invited" me out to the smoking area, and a) forbid me from running any more work up trg, and b) explained to me that the work up trg is specifically designed for those that need it, and c) made it clear that I was a knob.  He was right on all counts (as CSMs have a tendency to be).

So, in a unit that marches lots, there are always opportunities to do a "snap BFT" - Lord knows I did enough of them in 3VP - but in a unit that does not march a lot (like an Area HQ), then work up training is appropriate.

Dave
Duly chagrined.


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## Strike (1 Mar 2005)

Okay, I know I'm not Army, but I'm going to answer anyway because our unit is given the choice of the PT test or BFT.



> The military gives you time to workout and in most cases are willing to give you more time, if you ask for it.



 ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's funny.  Most of us are working 8-10 hrs a day.  For this reason BFT work-up training has been mandated by the higher ups.  We tend to get so caught up in work that it's sometimes very hard to get out to train.  The required work-ups allows the few that are doing BFT a guarantee that they will be able to put in the time to get ready for it.


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## carpediem (1 Mar 2005)

> Most of us are working 8-10 hrs a day...it's sometimes very hard to get out to train.



Just curious, your unit doesn't have time alloted for PT in garrison?

To address the topic, I think that if the BFT is the fitness standard for CF members, then PT year round should be a constant "work up" for the BFT. Of course, some pers, due to courses/leave/deployment/injury etc. may have to move back to the earlier stages of the work up from time to time. Also, some pers, who are ready for BFT any time, may be allowed to enjoy other PT substitutes for the BFT work up.


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## Strike (2 Mar 2005)

carpediem said:
			
		

> Just curious, your unit doesn't have time alloted for PT in garrison?



Nope.  We may be on an Army base but it's still an Air Force unit.  Of course, those of us who aren't too busy flying/planning/doing secondary duties/ground runs/test flights/etc, etc can always head to the gym for an hour, but it's hard to keep a regular schedule when you are a week days and a week nights.

I believe there should be some type of work-up.  However, should a person reach a high standard overall, they should not be required to take this work-up training for the next year.  BTW, did you guys here about the trench dig?  As long as they don't use 2 inch gravel like they did in the '96 test cases (of which I was lucky enough to participate) things should be okay.  Talk about hard on the hands -- and ears!


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## big_johnson1 (2 Mar 2005)

If you keep the training up year long then there shouldn't need to be a workup, right? It doesn't have to be hardcore, just once every couple of weeks would maintain it right (once you have the ability anyways)?


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## Block 1 (2 Mar 2005)

One thing we are all forgetting is that PT is part of our working day. So if you work a 10 hour day then you should be using part of that day to do PT. If your in an Area HQ and your failing to do PT, because your work load is to much. This needs to be addressed ASAP through the chain of comd. An Area HQ has the leadership of that Area and as such must Lead. The standard in the CF, is a minimum of 40 min plus 30 min to change a day. In other units it's been more Peteawawa (SF), in the 80's was two to three hours with some units. Now again if the chain of comd is not providing you with adequate time for PT, then that needs to be addressed. I know some times the chain of comd is the problem and addressing the problem will just make another problem for you. That's simple, next time your in the coffee room and see the next level in the chain bring it up to them or the RSM. You can always wave B-GL-382-003/PT-001 Army Fitness Manual in front of them. The bottom line is if you don't do PT that's your failure. If the chain of comd does not provide you with PT time that's their failure. In both cases this needs to be fixed. Once it's fixed and your up to standard, the BFT will be just a walk in the park . â Å“'SOLDIERS FIRSTâ ?         :gunner:


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## ImanIdiot (4 Mar 2005)

Work up shouldn't be required, because we are all supposed to be fit to fight, right? Unless rehabbing from an injury, its everyone's responsibility to be in adequate shape. I feel that I could(should) be in much better shape, but walking 13km in 2(+) hrs is well within my abilities. Its not a tab through the jungle, its just a walk at a decent pace with 50 or 60lbs on your back. We should all be able to do this at the drop of a hat.


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## Sc011y (5 Mar 2005)

Forgive my...newbieness, but I'm brand spanking new.  Whats a BFT?  Is it something that I have probably already done?


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## PPCLI MCpl (5 Mar 2005)

Battle Fitness Test. 13 Km Rucksack March


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## buzgo (5 Mar 2005)

After having done it a bunch of times, I have to agree with the idea of it being a surprise. In Pet at the Sig Sqn, it seemed like we let PT and fitness go by the wayside, so there were a lot of out of shape people roaming around. I think that maybe being bugged out and made to do the BFT as a surprise would have been a huge wake up call for them. 

I also think that the army should have to do the BFT twice per year and additionally have an Expres test once per year. I was posted this year to a unit in Ottawa, so we only do the expres test - it is a far more difficult test. Any fat guy can tough out the 13km and go on light duties afterward, but the same guy will probably not meet his level on the beep test and then you have things documented!

I also found that the chain of command (mostly my Sergeant) wouldn't do anything about people who didn't take their fitness seriously. Lots of guys were adamant that it was the military's job to get them into shape. I'm not talking about Corporals and Privates here either, this is MCpls and people who have since been promoted too.


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## Bert (5 Mar 2005)

I'm not sure you can directly equate the BFT with simple physical fitness.

To me, and from my experience, the BFT requires physical fitness and continual combat 
conditioning.  Anyone who works out at the gym, jogs/runs frequently and stays fit would
be able to do well in the Express test.  Thats what they train for.  The BFT is another matter. 
Suddenly, strap on a  60lb ruck, webbing, C7, and march out for 2 hours for 13-15 km goes 
beyond just fitness acquired at the gym.  

Our unit has three mandatory PT sessions a week.  The PT is fairly generalized and not bad for
maintaining a fitness level, but to actually improve fitness, the member must train further on 
his/her own.  Alot of members train in the gym and run.  Dispite the fact many members excel,
likely they'd find the BFT pretty hard mainly because they don't condition themselves for it.

The air force seems to have recognized that its members are lacking combat conditioning relative
to the army.  In the last two years, and particularily with deployable units, the Air Command has
directed reg force units to improve "combat skills".  Our unit on two or three Fridays a month performs
a mini ruck march of 8 kms as a part of it.  The members who found it difficult to keep up are well 
motivated to improve their conditioning.  Overall in the past year, everyone has shown improvement
and I could say we'd pass the BFT on a drop of a hat.  One could say that this type of conditioning 
could be done on an individual basis, but the fact the unit takes the time to train toegther and perform
"mini-BFTs" regularily that maintains and improves this conditioning, is a freaking good idea.


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## buzgo (5 Mar 2005)

Fitness has a lot to do with it. A fit person will recover quicker, would be able to march faster and further.

People are getting a free ride because all they have to worry about is passing that test, once per year.  I've seen it over and over again, people tough it out for 2 hours, maybe do the fireman carry, and then cannot do anything else for weeks.

If the BFT is combined with an expres test and a strong chain of command, willing to enforce remedial PT, these people wouldn't be able to get away with what they do.


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## PPCLI MCpl (5 Mar 2005)

I just recieved word in Fridays O Group that 2 PPCLI members will be required to perform the "shellscrape dig" as part the the BFT.  Have any other units re-introduced this portion of the test?


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## ZipperHead (5 Mar 2005)

I'm of the mind that you should be doing "work-up training" year round. Not neccesarily by the book, but not the way it has been in the past: "Ohmygodit'sBFTtimeagain..... let's do 12.9 km 3 times in 3 days, then do the march the 4th day........". *IF* units did the training throughout the year, you could do it anytime, anywhere. However, reality creeps in, then it gets put on the backburner, then everyone seems to wait to the last minute, and tries to squeeze everybody in, within a two day period. It's not like you have to book the roads or fitness trails, or at the worst, book the training area road, if you have a training area attached directly to the base.

When I was in Bosnia in 2000, our OC (a pretty big guy) decided that we should focus on doing more "weight-bearing" marches (ie rucksack or webbing marches) because there was a study out of the US Army stating that you should spend 90% of your trg time doing the weight-bearing marches and 10% running (of course we were doing it the opposite ratio in our unit previous to that). I never did read the study (I'd like to think he wasn't snowing us....) but it makes more sense than strictly running all the time. The problem with it, is the time required to get a decent workout in. There's not much sense in walking around for 30 minutes and then calling it a day, to shower, and head back to work. A change in thinking has to occur, and yes, you may have to miss coffee and toast at the mess, but what's more important?? Well, the coffee and toast usually wins out..... 

Another one of my 8 million pet-peeves is people who complain when they have to do more than 1 BFT per year (remember, it's a MINIMUM of one, not a maximum....). It's not like it's the Bataan death march. Or the ever infamous "Why do 12 km for training..... let's do another km, and then we're done with it!!!!". Well, the point of the training is just that: training. It might not be exciting, but you are out sweating and getting the heart rate up, getting your body used to the weight, your boots, the equipment (helmet, webbing (now TV), and weapon), and getting some fresh air. We have a habit of giving people the day off after completing the BFT, as though it were completely draining (though for some I thought we'd have to break out the cardiac cart.....). You're supposed to be able to fight right after the march, not go and moan and groan at home on the sofa. The weight IS pretty unbearable.... yeah, right...... it's real close to a combat load (or not.....).

I try to run the BFT now, just to see how fast I can do it (best time: 1:24:00). I could have (in theory) lapped one of my soldiers on the 6.5 km fitness trail we use in Gagetown if I went around a third time. Now, HE was hurting at the end of it. The best part is people saying that I am going to hurt myself doing that. Yes, I might hurt myself. But then again, I may actually improve my fitness level somewhat. And be ready to do Mountain Man. And the marathon I plan to run. And perhaps ready to deploy....  But I should be a good Sgt and follow up at the back, and try to motivate the soldiers who have no motivation, and tell them that they can do it, when we both know that they really can't. But I won't play that game.......

Anyway, if a unit says that it doesn't have time to do the training, but have time to play ball hockey once or twice a week, or have stand-downs every Friday afternoon, or prolonged lunch hours, etc isn't serious about their job. The problem is that units feel that it has to be all or nothing: everybody out together, or nobody. I see a lot of people (by looks, senior NCO's or senior officers) out in pairs or small groups doing the training just before lunch, or towards the end of the day. IF units trusted their younger soldiers (and IF the younger soldiers could be trusted to do it without dogging it....) to follow this approach, maybe the training would get completed. And we might have a fitter military. But who am I kidding...... 

The people who are serious about doing the training (or PT) on their own find time to do, whether it means giving up the 90 minute lunches we seem to take, or in the evenings, or weekends. I'm 36 years old, with 3 young children and I manage to do it. It helps that I am a Sgt, so I can skin with little or no objections from my boss(es), but I have rarely been approached by my subordinates to leave early for lunch to do PT (and not expect 60 minutes to eat afterward)). I also train when I'm teaching courses in the field (we stay in shacks the majority of the time), whether it's running (in the dark) or going to the ATCO trailer that has a mini weight room set up. I have gotten fairly strange looks from people, and downright idiotic questions asked of me, when I run in the training area. I was running from Worthington Tank Park to Petersville (in Gagetown) when I was training for Mountain Man last summer, and had 2 people overtake me in their vehicles asking if I needed a lift, or was I just doing PT (in PT gear and carrying a rucksack). I guess THEY don't do PT in the field.

Anyway, I feel a little better after that rant, but it just goes to show how much PT (in particular "combat" PT) has taken a backseat to all the busywork we create for ourselves. 

Al


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## foerestedwarrior (6 Mar 2005)

good post.


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## GerryCan (6 Mar 2005)

I honestly believe there should not be any 'work-up' training for a BFT. If you can't go out and do 13km with 40 lbs on your back in less than 2 hrs 26 mins, then you have failed yourself only. In my opinion, it should be longer, with more weight. It should be an absolute challenge everytime you do it.

Regardless if your unit doesn't do PT enough, it's up to YOU and YOU only to stay fit. Seek and Accept responsibility...

It's sad when PT gets put on the back burner and more 'Important' things like maintenance, paper work or whatever take priority, but it happens all the time and it still doesn't add up to a valid excuse.

Now I'm not trying to say that i'm the fittest guy around, but if you are out of commission for 3 days after a BFT or have to 'work-up' for 3 weeks prior to a BFT, well maybe other gainful employment should be considered.  :'(


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## 043 (7 Mar 2005)

GerryCan said:
			
		

> I honestly believe there should not be any 'work-up' training for a BFT. If you can't go out and do 13km with 40 lbs on your back in less than 2 hrs 26 mins, then you have failed yourself only. In my opinion, it should be longer, with more weight. It should be an absolute challenge everytime you do it.
> 
> Regardless if your unit doesn't do PT enough, it's up to YOU and YOU only to stay fit. Seek and Accept responsibility...
> 
> ...



CHIMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gayson (7 Mar 2005)

There should be no need for work up training for the BFT.  All it takes is for troops to incorporate Ruck Marches into their normal PT rutine as part of a balanced PT program.

I am a Pres, I do pt 3-4 times per week.

Wednesday nights I have been doing mostly circuit training with the unit.  Weekends while on my DP2 course we have generally been running on saturdays, and on sundays a more creative exercise is used (last sunday was rucking with c6's, if you didn't have a c6 you had a water jerry).

On my weekends off I generally run on saturdays and ruck with 50 - 60 lbs over an 8km stretch.

I go snowboarding 1-2 times per week.

I generally do some push-ups all throughout the week.  If I am studying I'll sometimes do push-ups during a break, or do push-ups during commercials if I am watching TV.

Simple exercise plan like this has been keeping me in shape  In november I participated in an ex called Rogers Challenge which was basically a big ruck march with various stations each containing different types of training.  On that ex I rucked over 40km carrying 75lbs.

If a small guy like me (135lbs) that does just a little bit of PT (as described above) can ruck 40km, than there is no reason why ANYONE in the army cannot complete the BFT, let alone require workup (unless on rehab from injury).


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## COBRA-6 (10 Mar 2005)

PPCLI MCpl said:
			
		

> I just received word in Fridays O Group that 2 PPCLI members will be required to perform the "shellscrape dig" as part the the BFT.   Have any other units re-introduced this portion of the test?



This is now army-wide policy, I'm home on leave today, so I can't pull up the CANLANDGEN, but I remember seeing it recently. There are supposed to be four parts to the Army Fitness Test, the 13km weight-load march, the casualty carry, the ammo-box lift, and the trench dig, for now they don't require the ammo-box lift as it's a supposed admin burden...

I agree that there should be no warning, that work-up training is nothing more than a CYA policy... will the enemy give us any "work-up" combat time? You know, go easy on us until we get our act together?? I think not... lol...

I work in a reserve CBG HQ, we rigidly enforce CF fitness standards, every full-time mbr must complete either the CF EXPRES or AFT each year. 1st failure is a verbal, 2nd a recorded etc... but we also include PT as part of our normal work routine, both group and individual... also no reserve class b contract will be extended or renewed without a valid EXPRES or AFT. It's not perfect but it's a start!

Cheers


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