# Jr NCO and Sr NCO - Who are they (a spilt thread)



## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2015)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> All of the Snr NCOs in the NCR were required to attend the Mess a few days before the report came out and we were told in no uncertain terms that we were part of the problem and needed to step up and be part of the solution.



/ sidetrack

I saw this yesterday and had to come back to it.  Sorry. 

You are an MWO.  MWOs are not Snr NCOs.  This is why it is called the WOs & Sgts Mess vice Snr NCOs mess.  Everyone has a pet peeve; this is one of mine.

This is something Snr NCOs & Warrant Officers used to educate Pte's, Jnr NCOs and Officers on not that many years ago.  It was a PD discussion topic on my SLC in 2002.

/end side track


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## dangerboy (7 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> / sidetrack
> I saw this yesterday and had to come back to it.  Sorry.
> You are an MWO.  MWOs are not Snr NCOs.  This is why it is called the WOs & Sgts Mess vice Snr NCOs mess.  Everyone has a pet peeve; this is one of mine.
> This is something Snr NCOs & Warrant Officers used to educate Pte's, Jnr NCOs and Officers on not that many years ago.  It was a PD discussion topic on my SLC in 2002.
> /end side track



I was actually trying to find an official reference to this (other than word of mouth)as some people (WOs + Officers) did not believe me when I told them there was a difference between a WO and a SNCO.


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## dapaterson (7 May 2015)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> I was actually trying to find an official reference to this (other than word of mouth)as some people (WOs + Officers) did not believe me when I told them there was a difference between a WO and a SNCO.



QR&O 1.02:


> "non-commissioned member" (militaire du rang)means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces;
> 
> "non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;



(And remember the ever-popular "MCpl is an appointment, not a rank" when reading the definitions above...)


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## Tibbson (7 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> / sidetrack
> I saw this yesterday and had to come back to it.  Sorry.
> You are an MWO.  MWOs are not Snr NCOs.  This is why it is called the WOs & Sgts Mess vice Snr NCOs mess.  Everyone has a pet peeve; this is one of mine.
> This is something Snr NCOs & Warrant Officers used to educate Pte's, Jnr NCOs and Officers on not that many years ago.  It was a PD discussion topic on my SLC in 2002.
> /end side track



Yes, it was a topic on my SLC as well, and my 6B, however nobody could find any sort of reference for it other than the fact they'd been told it on their previous courses as well.  About the only thing we could all agree on is that the WOs & Sgts Mess was the only one you must earn your way into.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2015)

A few links:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-army.page  (even this link is incorrect; Pte's are not NCOs).

http://www.cg.cfpsa.ca/cg-pc/Petawawa/EN/Messes/Reichwald/Pages/default.aspx


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## Jarnhamar (8 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You are an MWO.  MWOs are not Snr NCOs.  This is why it is called the WOs & Sgts Mess vice Snr NCOs mess.



If an MWO/CWO isn't a senior NCO then what are they?


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## George Wallace (8 May 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If an MWO/CWO isn't a senior NCO then what are they?



Well.....Some like to look towards the American system where the Warrant Officer rankings are completely removed from the Snr NCO rank structure; separate from NCMs and officers.   As I understand it, they are neither Snr NCOs, nor 'Commissioned' officers, but due to their particular skills, are placed into a separate ranking system.   

As we follow more closely the British system, the Warrant Officer ranks are the upper tiers of the Snr NCO rank structure.


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## Edward Campbell (8 May 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well.....Some like to look towards the American system where the Warrant Officer rankings are completely removed from the Snr NCO rank structure; separate from NCMs and officers.   As I understand it, they are neither Snr NCOs, nor 'Commissioned' officers, but due to their particular skills, are placed into a separate ranking system.
> 
> As we follow more closely the British system, the Warrant Officer ranks are the upper tiers of the Snr NCO rank structure.




We have rather bastardized the _old_ British system of the _Warrant_. Warrant officers were far more than senior NCOs, they were technical experts, often considered to be much like officers (in the case of Royal Navy, the master, the surgeon and the purser were warrant officers who had all the privileges of officers, the master ranking just below the captain, himself and sharing prize money with lieutenants and the captain of Marines). Others were not quite officers but well _above_ the sergeants and petty officers, in the Royal Navy the boatswain, gunner and carpenter were not "wardroom warrant officers" but nor were they part of the crew. They did not, as did the petty officers and sailors, leave when the ship paid off; they were, in some respects, the first _regulars_ ~ long service naval professionals.

(_I believed_, back in the 1960s, and _still believe now_, that we they (I wasn't senior enough to take any blame) buggered up the NCO (and junior officer) ranks in a (successful) effort to give us a (much needed) pay raise.)


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## armyvern (8 May 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If an MWO/CWO isn't a senior NCO then what are they?



As already quoted in this thread:  QR&O 1.02 - Definitions 



> "non-commissioned member" (militaire du rang)means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces;
> 
> * "non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of *sergeant or corporal*;



NCMs = all ranks from Pte to CWO;
NCO = all ranks from Cpl to Sgt;
  - Jr NCO = Cpl (and MCpl appointments); and
  - Snr NCO = Sgts.

WOs, MWOs, and CWOs are referred to as "Warrant Officers"; they are indeed still NCMs, but they neither Jr NCOs nor Snr NCOs.

Look at their Mess the next time you drive by one because you will see something like "Sgts & WOs Mess", Chiefs & POs Mess", but you'll never see one named "Snr NCOs Mess" because it would then consist of nothing but Sgts within its membership.

Clear as mud?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (8 May 2015)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> As already quoted in this thread:  QR&O 1.02 - Definitions
> 
> NCMs = all ranks from Pte to CWO;
> NCO = all ranks from Cpl to Sgt;
> ...



Yes, but lets be clear here. The whole jr/sr NCO has nothing to do with the navy. We never used to refer to any rate as "NCOs", a system that only started creeping in our vocab after unification and as result of it. In the Navy, you were either a seaman or a Petty Officer (all class - first or second - and category i.e. simply  "Petty" or "Chief Petty"). The PO1 and above may have been given the same type of written "warrant" that is given in the Army to "Warrant Officers" since unification, but they were never considered to be Warrant Officers (as a counter-point to ArmyVern's mess name for the Navy (the C&PO's mess) which really indicates nothing about separation between PO2's and PO1 and above [the "warrants"], remember that in French, that mess is simply called Carré des Officiers-Mariniers, a single collective name for both types.

In fact, in Canada's Navy, unlike the RN who had the real Warrant Officers [that is they were ship's officers but elevated by Warrant of the Crown as a result of their proven experience, rather than nobles Commissioned in command of the ship] until 1949 (that is, as ERC indicated, the purser, master, gunner, boatswain, etc), we NEVER had them in Canada's Navy. Instead, the most senior ratings (PO's and CPO's) that were deserving of elevation as a result of their technical knowledge were elevated by way of a special commission, and were known as "Commissioned Officers". They wore the same rank as the sub-lieutenants but could easily be spotted as there was no chance of a S/Lt being retained passed his 25th birthday if he hadn't made Lt by then. Nowadays PO's and CPO's can still CFR and come in as Lt's, but many of them insist on being called Commissioned Officers.


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## geo (9 May 2015)

When I was promoted to CWO and appointed RSM, I was presented with a Warrant, signed by the Minister (only). VS the Commission script, I received when I CFR'd to the dark side...


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## geo (9 May 2015)

Not sure a navy CPO1 would receive a warrant, unless named Coxn...


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## Tibbson (9 May 2015)

At one time all WO ranks received a formal warrant of appointment according to an article I've read somewhere.  I wish I could find it again but I'll keep looking.  I believe around the time of unification it was changed so that only CWOs received a warrant of appointment because it was felt that having them issued to all WOs and MWOs would only "flood the market" and cheapen the purpose of the Warrant of Appointment.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 May 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If an MWO/CWO isn't a senior NCO then what are they?



They are Warrant Officers, the same way 2Lts, Lts and Capts are all Junior Officers.


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## Pat in Halifax (10 May 2015)

geo said:
			
		

> Not sure a navy CPO1 would receive a warrant, unless named Coxn...



Once completed the SLP (Old CWO=CPO1 qual) a Navy CPO1 DOES receive a warrant. Posting as a Cox'n is irrelevant and is actually a core CPO1 position....same as a CM, Occ Mgr, Unit Chief, School Chief, etc.


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## geo (10 May 2015)

OK. - now I know


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