# About Respect - Officers vs NCMs



## the_girlfirend (25 Sep 2008)

Hello everyone!

The search function lead me to the thread “career choice officers vs NCMs” which is full of valuable information.

But I am confused regarding the way an Officer gains respect from the NCMs.

I know that
- Officers should lead by example
- Officers are responsible for the NCMs
- NCMs do most of the “hands on” work
- Officers do a lot of administrative / office work
- NCMs judge officers 24/7, and to gain respect, you have to be up to their standards
- Officers have to lead men and women who have a lot of experience

But more specifically, regarding officers in supporting trades, I was told at the CFRC that most of the time, I will be very busy doing office work and that I won’t be able to join the NCMs working on the field. 

My question is how do you lead by example and how do you gain respect, if you simply do not have time to get your hands dirty?

And also, if you work in the field with your troops, is it really your job to do “hands on” work? I read in “On Killing” by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, that usually as an Infantry Officer if you have to use your riffle it is because you are not doing your job properly.

I assume that it all comes down to the chain of command and if you respect others and if you stay professional at all times, you must be in the right track to gain respect. But it is hard to understand how it really works on a day to day basis from a civilian point of view.

As you can see, I am confused and I guess that it depends a lot on the individuals and situations.

If you can give me some general advice or opinion on respect between officers and NCMs, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
Have a nice day


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## armyvern (25 Sep 2008)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> I know that
> - Officers should lead by example So should all NCMs
> - Officers are responsible for the NCMs NCMs are their own best career managers, and are frequently responsible for their own subordinates
> - NCMs do most of the “hands on” work Depends what you consider hands on. I have a desk job and probably always will now - I'm an NCM
> ...



My yellow added - see if that doesn't confuse you more.  :-\


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## daftandbarmy (25 Sep 2008)

Officers should always balance their time betwen the field and the office. That's one of the things that makes the job so enjoyable - the variety. 

A timeless series of questions I'm sure!

Generally trust what you've been trained to do. The system is pretty good at preparing you for your job, despite what others may say about 'oh no, another FNG'

In the field, you need to be prepared to 'go first', literally in the case of the infantry. You don't need to go first all the time, but you need to do so when it makes sense - and it will be obvious when 'now' is the time. You don't need to be an expert in everything, or the fastest or fittest, but you need to be able to get 'stuck in' without micromanaging. You need to be generally competent in all the stuff that your troops do. If the troops always see you in a truck/bunker/ hootch/ building, or if they see you fail a BFT or grossly mishandle a C6, you can forget about gaining any respect. Admit your weaknesses and get assistance in correcting them if required (from the most junior member in the platoon if possible!), that will get you respect and him/her self-confidence.

You need to keep on top of the 'paperwork' because that's one of the most important ways we look after out troops in the army. It is your job, and no one else in the platoon has it in their job description - so it's up to you. So push through those promotions, commendations, leave requests, disciplinary bumpf etc etc on time and to the right standard. There are a million people in the unit who you can ask for advice on this stuff, but start with your 2IC.

You need to be able to demonstrate that you will always 'do the right thing'. In most cases the 'right thing' is obvious. Given the choice of doing it 'right' or 'wrong' you must always opt for 'right'. This is harder than it sounds in many cases.

Delegate... lots. You can have a bunch of little projects running in the platoon that you are coordinating. Most of the time there are people who are keener, better than you at certain things, and this is a good way to leverage those skills for everyone's benefits. Don't delegate everything though, pick a few things that you are good at/ keen on an do those well.

Stand up for your troops, but don't continually whine and complain about 'poor old XYZ Platoon gets shafted again'. If you're doing way more than other platoons, have a word with the OC about it. Generally it's nothing personal, it's just the way things work out sometimes. Don't overprotect your platoon either. Make sure they pull their weight.

Don't waste your spare time. In an infantry unit there can be lots of it. Who you are 'off duty' will be as important as who you are with cam cream on your face.

And, of course, you need to know how to make a good cup of tea/coffee for your signaller, or you're doomed.  ;D


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## Teflon (25 Sep 2008)

Always remember that respect is a two way street as well, one's commission does not make him/her a better person/soldier and an officer will most often find a massive amount of experience in his/her NCMs.

Know your job and do it well and expect and require the same of them and if you don't know or need assistance then ask them.

Most NCOs (the good ones anyways) want you as their platoon/troop officer to look good in the eyes of the boss (even if they don't particularly like you as a person because if you do well - the Pl does well and no NCO wants to be in the Pl of the Pl Comd the OC doesn't like)


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## the_girlfirend (25 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern, 

Thank you for the added info, I get your point  
But, from your experience, how do you think that respect is earned in the army in general?


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## Gunnar (25 Sep 2008)

> how do you think that respect is earned in the army in general?



Same way it is earned anywhere.  By being visible, reliable, and leading by example.

Mission before troops
Troops before self.

Actually, the regimental rogue has some good information on leadership on his site, www.regimentalrogue.com.  He's also on this site, but read his own web site first.  Old army publications and advice to young officers (who are placed in a position of leadership, but are not the only ones who need to lead).  Read it.  You will be *taught* a great deal in the CF proper, both theoretically and by example.  Emulate your best examples....and do what is expected of you.

A quote from the RCR Regimental Catechism might help here:



> Courage, Obedience, Physical Fitness, Efficiency and Pride in yourself and in your Regiment.
> You must have courage to face battle and boredom. You must be obedient to all in authority over
> you so that The Royal Canadian Regiment can depend on this obedience. You must be physically
> fit to stand the hard conditioning under which you must live and so you can fight in the field.
> ...


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Sep 2008)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> . . .  how do you think that respect is earned in the army in general?



The same way that it is earned in any other profession or endeavour.  Think of anyone that you respect (or that you don't respect).  Teacher? Employer? Co-worker? Friend? Parent?  Why do you respect (or disrespect) them?  What is it they did, or what did they believe to elicit that response?  Follow the good examples.  The same holds true in the military.  There will be plenty of examples (good and bad) during training and after joining a unit.  Stick to the good ones.


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## BinRat55 (25 Sep 2008)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> But I am confused regarding the way an Officer gains respect from the NCMs.
> 
> If you can give me some general advice or opinion on respect between officers and NCMs, it would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...



You will get varied opinions on how one in the CF gives their respect to another. It varies because everyones definition of what respect means to them personally is different. As Vern stated, you will see a lot of Senior NCM's having gained much respect from Junior NCM's and Junior Officers simply due to the amount of time and knowledge this person has gained. And again, to amplify a little of what Vern pointed out - a young no-hook private right up to a seasoned RSM and on to a 35 year+ General all gain respect AND can just as easily toss that away in one action - trust me, i've seen it done. For me, it's like this:



> My question is how do you lead by example and how do you gain respect, if you simply do not have time to get your hands dirty?



Make time. It's difficult, but most people see that. I feel i'm worth more to the Captain who "makes time" to see me, stop and offer help if needed - an hour later i'm saying to someone over coffee "Can you believe it? Capt. Bloggins helped move those two drums to the back of the warehouse!! That don't happen everywhere!!" There's a step in the right direction.



> And also, if you work in the field with your troops, is it really your job to do “hands on” work? I read in “On Killing” by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, that usually as an Infantry Officer if you have to use your riffle it is because you are not doing your job properly.



Pick up that damn rifle and fight along side me and i'll respect you a hell of a lot more than 20 people hiding in a CP (not that everyone who works in a CP hides - don't get me wrong - everyone has a specific job to do, but you get my point...



> Officers have to lead men and women who have a lot of experience



They sure do. So listen to it. Don't be afraid to ask for it. Use the skills that the people you lead have. Too many leaders have trouble asking for advice and opinions from someone they are leading because it makes them look bad. It don't, failure makes them look bad. 



> Officers are responsible for the NCMs...Officers do a lot of administrative / office work



They are - and they do. Officers who use their "responsibility" and great powers of "admin" for the good of the people they are leading it gets seen. BACK YOUR TROOPS - I can't stress that enough. Rewards / compliments for a hard job well done and FAIR disclipinary action for those who fall off the path.

Bottom line, earning respect should not be difficult if you are a good leader - officer or otherwise. The time in issue - well, we all have to start somewhere, don't we?


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## the_girlfirend (26 Sep 2008)

Thank you everyone for your advices, 

I found a lot of information on the Regimental Rogue, it is very useful... I will try to go through it all.
BinRat55, thank you for the very detailed helpful answer, I appreciate it.

I do not have a lot of work experience (less than 10 years) and I have worked mostly for unionized companies.
I think that the relations between employees and with the employer are affected by the union.
From my experience, as a unionized employee, to be respected by your colleagues you need to say as they say. 
You need to find a balance between pleasing your boss and pleasing the union.
I guess that the army is different.

When I started at my last job, I was told to work slowly, because if I get too much work done compared to the other, older employees it would make them look bad   :
Also, I don't see a private answering "well, that is not in my task description, I can't do it" to a sergeant. ;D

The military is a whole new world and I needed to understand it better
Thank you again for the answers
Have a nice weekend everyone!


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## Harley Sailor (26 Sep 2008)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> I do not have a lot of work experience (less than 10 years) and I have worked mostly for unionized companies.
> I think that the relations between employees and with the employer are affected by the union.
> From my experience, as a unionized employee, to be respected by your colleagues you need to say as they say.
> You need to find a balance between pleasing your boss and pleasing the union.
> I guess that the army is different.


I think you will find that working within a union company is a lot like working in the CF.. The Officers are like management and the NCMs are like the union workers.  Having seen my father work his way through both the RCN and the union jobs, what he said it was very much the same in each case.  You can have young management just out of school bossing old vets with 25 years working in the field.  And as always some of each always think they know more then the other.

In both cases respect is gained by putting others ahead of your career.  Thoses who put their career ahead of the welfare of their people lose a lot of reespect.


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## Rifleman62 (26 Sep 2008)

From one of my favorate authors. Canadianized.

THE CHALLENGE OF LEADERSHIP

Complacency and monotony inevitably lead to inattentiveness.  Inattentiveness inevitably leads to mistakes.  And mistakes in combat create what After Action reports sometimes wistfully refer to as "situations".

Being a leader does not make one immune to the stress or anxiety an incident can generate.  If anything, the rank and position a leader holds tends to magnify such feelings.  Unlike a rifleman, a leader is expected by those who follow him to lead them through each and every incident safely.  In and of itself, this is an awesome responsibility, one that few people care to take on, and even fewer are truly prepared for.  Yet this is not the only burden that a leader must carry with him.  By virtue of his appointment, a leader is also saddled with the responsibility of accomplishing tasks handed down to him by higher authority.  All too often these goals are in conflict.  For instance, each soldier has simple choices to make, and then only in response to orders.  In a crisis, each soldier, regardless of how professional or well trained he is, always has an option.  Either he follows the orders that have been handed down to him and sallies forth, or he opts to place self-preservation over duty, honour and country.  Like the simple computer binary coding, this equation is little more than a yes or no proposition.  What drives a man to risk life and limb is frequently determined by the trust that he has in the leader who is there, with him, issuing the order and sharing the risks.

Leaders, on the other hand, are not only charged with doing the telling, they must generate the conditions that will motivate a soldier to execute that order.  It has always been that way, and so long as nations place the flower of their youth in harm's way, it always will be.  Leaders will have to initiate action by issuing sound, coherent orders.  They will need to motivate their soldiers to carry out those actions by using a combination of encouragement, threats and personal example.  Finally, the leader, be he officer, WO, or NCO, or simply the first guy to stand up and start something, will have to oversee the actions he put into motion.  And, since action can, and usually does, lead to a new, and sometimes unpredictable response by the opposition, the leader is faced with having to make new decisions, often before his previous one is carried through to completion.  Thus, even the simple, rather straightforward situation, is able to generate a level of stress that would unnerve an average person.  Yet leaders are expected to deal with these sorts of situations again and again.  Day in and day out, they are required to push aside whatever personal fears they harbor or self-doubts that burden them, and lead.  Needless to say, they must find a way of dealing with the stress and strains their decisions leave in their wake.

As quoted in God's Children
by Harold Coyle


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## BinRat55 (26 Sep 2008)

Harley Sailor said:
			
		

> ... respect is gained by putting others ahead of your career.  Thoses who put their career ahead of the welfare of their people lose a lot of reespect.



Nicely put Harley, I like it. I would only fine-tune it this way:



> *A measure of * respect is gained by putting *the welfare of * others ahead of your career own.  Thoses who put their career ahead of the welfare of their people lose a lot of reespect.


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## chris_log (27 Sep 2008)

I figure this is as good a spot as many to make my grand re-entrance to army.ca;

If you are interested in reading up on officer/NCM relationsips I would highly suggest finding a copy of the book I've linked below. It's a pretty interesting read from a 'been there, done that' USMC junior officer and he details his relationships and interactions with his senior and junior NCM's. It's not Canadian, but the lessons and experiences in it ring true. 

http://www.amazon.com/One-Bullet-Away-Making-Officer/dp/0618773436


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> I figure this is as good a spot as many to make my grand re-entrance to army.ca;
> 
> If you are interested in reading up on officer/NCM relationsips I would highly suggest finding a copy of the book I've linked below. It's a pretty interesting read from a 'been there, done that' USMC junior officer and he details his relationships and interactions with his *senior and junior NCM's*. It's not Canadian, but the lessons and experiences in it ring true.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/One-Bullet-Away-Making-Officer/dp/0618773436



Lets start by using the correct terminology.

There are NCMs, not senior and junior NCMs.  (Army) NCMs are broken down into:

- private soliders
- Junior NCOs (Cpls and MCpls)
- Senior NCOs (Sergeants only)
- Warrant Officers (WO, MWO, CWO)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/9_05/9_05_cfpn-qc_ncm-nco_e.asp


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## chris_log (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Lets start by using the correct terminology.
> 
> There are NCMs, not senior and junior NCMs.  (Army) NCMs are broken down into:
> 
> ...



The original poster referred to them as such. I know the differences, I was keeping it in simpler terms for the original poster. And, since we're splitting hairs here, 'junior' and 'senior' NCM is as common terminology as is 'junior' and 'senior' NCO.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> The original poster referred to them as such. I know the differences, I was keeping it in simpler terms for the original poster. And, since we're splitting hairs here, 'junior' and 'senior' NCM is as common terminology as is 'junior' and 'senior' NCO.



Its still incorrect.  If you teach someone something wrong, do you have an idea how hard it is to then unteach that?  

Who is the 'senior' NCM between a 35 year old WO and a 55 year old Cpl who have both been in the service since they were 18?

On my SLC, our Syndicate WO told us of a story when he was a WO in unit X and the OC said he wanted all his Senior NCOs to stay after the briefing.  Being a WO, he got up and walked out...then the OC said "Hey WO Bloggins, I want all NCOs to stay here...".

Thats a common thing for some people to say as well, refers to anyone above the rank of MCpl as "NCOs".  Does it make it right??   :


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## chris_log (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Its still incorrect.  If you teach someone something wrong, do you have an idea how hard it is to then unteach that?
> 
> Who is the 'senior' NCM between a 55 year old WO and a 55 year old Cpl who have both been in the service since they were 18?
> 
> ...



Never said it made it right. Anyways, I was merely keeping it simple for the (civvie) poster who will leave this site still referring to them as NCM's. Good on you for clearing it up after the fact.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Thats a common thing for some people to say as well, refers to anyone above the rank of MCpl as "NCOs".  Does it make it right??   :



And it's always productive to fight the evolution of common language usage when everyone understand the intent, just to force the issue on points of minutiae.     :


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> And it's always productive to fight the evolution of common language usage when everyone understand the intent, just to force the issue on points of minutiae.     :



Perhaps in your opinion.  Would you be correcting me if I posted that Subordinate Officers include Lt and Capt?  I am sure you or others would.

Using incorrect terminology and calling it common language usage neither changes the fact that it is incorrect terminology, or justifies using it further IMO.

*edit - my intent was not to cause a long hijack of the thread, rather to correct a point that is big to some, and small to others.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2008)

You corrected him in your first post on the subject, and then berated him after he offered an explanation for his action.   It was an unnecessary followup which was little more than flexing your imaginary on-line muscles, not unlike your repeated performance since you fist arrived here in your first profile.  Grow up, back off and leave it alone, you made your point, it's not your job to force it down his throat.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> You corrected him in your first post on the subject, and then berated him after he offered an explanation for his action.



I don't think what I said hardly qualifies as a berating. 



> It was an unnecessary followup which was little more than flexing your imaginary on-line muscles



Sort of like your posts to me here?  I had not replied to his last post, and that was several hours ago now.  



> unlike your repeated performance since you fist arrived here in your first profile



If you have something you'd like to address from over 2 years ago, by all means, go ahead.  If you have personal things you wish to say, I would think a more appropriate place is via PM.  



> Grow up, back off and leave it alone, you made your point, it's not your job to force it down his throat.



I am grown up, I did back off after the point was made (about 3.5 hours ago now), and I did leave it alone.  Please notice the time of his last reply and the fact that I made no further comment to his.


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## the_girlfirend (28 Sep 2008)

Hey!!!! No fighting on my topic!!!  (;D just kidding ;D)

Good morning!

Thank you Piper for the suggestion "One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer"

Actually, I really have no idea about the differences between the American military and the Canadian military.
I would like to know before I read this book, is there anybody who would like to warn me about some important things that I could find in that book that would not apply to the Canadian Forces.

Thank you eye in the sky for the correction, honestly, I did not know the meaning of the notation "NCO"... so many things to learn... like a new born who just opened his eyes...  ;D


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## chris_log (28 Sep 2008)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> Hey!!!! No fighting on my topic!!!  (;D just kidding ;D)
> 
> Good morning!
> 
> ...



If you are just reading up on officership and whatnot, the differences should not be an issue. We are similar enough to the Americans that the experiences of a USMC junior officer can be useful to a Canadian junior officer, and vice versa.


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## medaid (28 Sep 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> If you are just reading up on officership and whatnot, the differences should not be an issue. We are similar enough to the Americans that the experiences of a USMC junior officer can be useful to a Canadian junior officer, and vice versa.



Except all the admins are different, the org names are different, and some of the movements are different. But yes, they can be useful.


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## chris_log (28 Sep 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Except all the admins are different, the org names are different, and some of the movements are different. But yes, they can be useful.



True. But lessons about the interactions between a junior officer and his junior and senior NCO's rings true. I'm trying to think of some Canadian books that cover this kind of topic. The book titled (I think) 'Peacekeeper' by General Mackenzie detailing his time as a junior officer and when he was with UNPROFOR was a good read. Any other suggestions for books that are written from a Canadian perspective?


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## Greymatters (29 Sep 2008)

Harley Sailor said:
			
		

> I think you will find that working within a union company is a lot like working in the CF.. The Officers are like management and the NCMs are like the union workers.  Having seen my father work his way through both the RCN and the union jobs, what he said it was very much the same in each case.  You can have young management just out of school bossing old vets with 25 years working in the field.  And as always some of each always think they know more then the other.
> 
> In both cases respect is gained by putting others ahead of your career.  Thoses who put their career ahead of the welfare of their people lose a lot of reespect.



I would agree with Harley.  The CF often has a union feel to it, as the rulebook supports and protects NCMs as much as it provides authority and power to officers, and most rules are applied to every CF member equally.  

Although we dont get to vote for our representatives, or vote for better work conditions, and any thing related to a strike is pretty much 'mutiny'...


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