# Re-Loading Rounds



## sgtdixon (4 Jan 2003)

Does anyone know how safe it is to reload Military rounds?
I reload as a hobby and because as a competition shooter   :sniper:  it helps make tighter groups but i wanted to know something.
I recently aquired 400 hundred rounds of Canadian brass (IVI Casings) in a 50/0 mix of .303 Brit and .308Win/7.62x15 and does anyone know how good IVI Casings are? they seem to feel heavier and have a bit more brass in the base. As well does anyone know what size powder load and bulet type we use in the 7.62? (Im not reloading .223/5.56 because i personaly hate the round)
I might as well add that these rounds will not be fired from any service weapons, I dont even go On BMQ until november, so dont think im gon\ing to reload a belt of 7.62 for the GPMG and see how it goes.


BTW: IVI is Industries Valcartier Industrys and the manufacture all of the Armed Forces Rounds from .22 Target to .50BMG for the MacMillian Tac-50


----------



## Wilson601 (4 Jan 2003)

I would guess 180, buts that soley a guess. I have an idea of what the grain is for a .308win deer round, so i‘m guessing they‘re the same. As you say its a hobby of yours, hobbys are good but dno‘t be too discourgaged if your range safty officer/staff doesn‘t let you rip a few belts of your homegrown.  :skull:


----------



## Wilson601 (4 Jan 2003)

As we all know it is a chargable offence to take hardware of a DND range. If you have any rounds, blanks, casings, T flashes, pins, spoons or smoke. you may pass them to your sect. cmndr as they go around. If, at a later date, you find anything u may give it to your staff or place it in an amnesty box If any legnth of time has passed and we find it upon inspection, your in $h!t. Now, the Declaration is: "I have no live rounds, empty casings, pyrotechnics or part thereof in my posision,Sir" 

      God i love the Army.  :skull:


----------



## onecat (4 Jan 2003)

Yes they work.  When I was tennager, I had a friend who was a gun-nut and he re-loaded everything; and seeing as he only owned militry style rifles, there were lots of militry standard cases re-loaded.  303, 7.92 and 308.  So go for it.


----------



## sgtdixon (5 Jan 2003)

Whoa wilson, read what I said, none of these rounds are from the DND ranges nor are they going to be fired there (unless i have the explicit permission of my unit co    ) All the rounds I currently have are stamped IVI ‘78, and were bought through a broker from the military, I also got my .303 rounds the same way. Dont worry i know the procedures around Range Saftey and Amnesty boxes


----------



## Spr.Earl (5 Jan 2003)

Er rethink what you have posted!!

 You have some brass yes?


----------



## portcullisguy (5 Jan 2003)

In my opinion, the DND surplus brass would be just as good as any other used brass.

I tend to stay away from reloads as a rule, and I am not a reloader myself (maybe that‘s why).

I own an SKS, which is 7.62x39mm, a round that is dirt cheap and not worth reloading.  You can buy thousands of rounds for what is comparatively considered pocket change.

My H&K USP is in .40S&W, and the manual recommends only FACTORY ammunition.  I have fired reloads that were ball (not lead) rounds, but found often the tolerances do not allow for primers seated even a fraction of a millimetre too far into the casing, resulting in several misfires from reloaded ammo, even "factory" reloads.  I only use factory ammo now.

I recently acquired a Mosin-Nagant M44 7.62x54mm, and have not yet fired it or even bought ammo for it.  Again, the Russian stuff is usually cheaper to buy in bulk than to bother reloading.

As for use on a DND range, I am aware that some DND ranges rent/loan out time to civilian rifle clubs in certain conditions.  Of course, usually you can bring what you want, withint reason.  You won‘t be shooting the DND‘s ammo anyway.  And of course, this is probably the only time you can take brass, etc., off a DND range and not get in crap for it, since the brass was yours to begin with, and not the DND‘s.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jan 2003)

Dixon remember that a 7.62mm round from a C6 GPMG is not the same size of bullet as a 7.62mm from a hunting rifle. Ones 7.62mmx54 winchester and the other is 7.62X51 nato

I have a remmington m700 in .308 and a friend of mine was going to give me a belt of c6 - 7.62 rounds he had but on a hunch i did some checking and while you can fire the smaller c6 round in your hunting rifle if you had to it runs the chance of doing harm to your rifle (or you)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2003)

For tech info, go to this site and read what an armourer has to say about .308 Winchester and 7.62 NATO.
7.62 vs. 308


----------



## Zoomie (5 Jan 2003)

A little FYI, any and all CF Ranges can NOT be opened up for civilian use.  That would be ILLEGAL, ask any Range Control Patroller and he will tell you the paper-work and authorization required for an Army unit to go about using a range. 
 Back in the days, this happened alot (civis using ranges), but not anymore.  In order for Police Departments to use a CF range, they must jump through the same hoops that CF Units do.  Ie.  post sentries, have a RSO qualified on that specific range, etc etc...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2003)

Both Winona and Cedar Springs in S. Ontario are used by civilian rifle clubs. Both are DND ranges. The ORA (civilian org) also uses the ranges at Borden extensivley.


----------



## sgtdixon (5 Jan 2003)

Hey Thanks for all the advice, Ill have to trade someone for some .30oWin Brass next time i get the chance, but the .303 brass that are once fired *(we still issue .303 to the Canadian Rangers) should be okay to fire in my Lee-Enfield No4 Mk1?
Thanks for all the help
As Well in Garrison Edmonton my rifle team and I had the chance to shoot on the Garrison small arms range, but were a Cadet rifle team, so is this why we could shoot there?


----------



## Zoomie (6 Jan 2003)

Sorry.. maybe I should have clarified my statements.  If range control says ‘go ahead and shoot on the range" then so be it.  What I was referring to was that in the past, civi‘s would stroll on to DND ranges, plop down in the prone position and blast off a couple hundred rounds, and then leave.  This sort-of practice has been ceased.  Of course gun clubs and the like would be granted access to the ranges, why not make some extra money for the base‘s budget? Out here in the west, the C7/C9 range at Bur**** was once open to anybody that wanted to "visit". Now the gates are locked ....


----------



## Zoomie (6 Jan 2003)

LOL.. auto censor bleeped out the name of a DND property. B U R D I C K !!


----------



## portcullisguy (8 Jan 2003)

Zoomie, I was referring to the Borden shoots by ORA rifle clubs.  I thought my original message was clear that the use of the ranges was sanctioned by DND range authorities.

It is interesting to know that once upon a time the ranges were open to civilian use as you described.

No, I wouldn‘t want to shoot on any range that was that lax in controlling access, etc.

Then again, those were probably much different times!


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2003)

I‘d like to shoot anywhere. With gun laws now you almost have to sneak into the woods to set up your own target practice range and do some shooting.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Jan 2003)

If you go into the woods to do any plinking make sure you have a paper target to show the Game Warden if he should stop by. Otherwise you could get tagged for hunting without a licence, out of season etc.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2003)

For sure. I was walking down an old camp road that goes off into the woods (in calabogie). My family has had a hunting cabin there since 1899. The road is basically a blazed train. A game warden stopped em and asked me if my rifle was loaded and i responded theres 4 rounds in the magazine but nothing in the chamber. He wanted to fine me for having a "loaded" gun on a mechanized trail. because the government decided that our little trail was a road we have to pay more taxes and can‘t walk around with a loaded rifle anymore. Just crazy


----------



## armd_recce (16 Jan 2003)

Dixon; 
Yes, IVI brass is considered to be good quality. Military brass is usually thicker at the base and lower walls than civvy brass as you correctly mentioned. Downside is sometimes lower case capacity, but that is generally not an issue. 

As for charge weight and bullet weight; the weight of powder (in grains) will entirely depend on what powder type you elect to use. You NEED a good reloading manual and some instruction before doing this yourself. For example putting say 27 grains of pistol powder in instead of 27 grains of a slower burning rifle powder will result in what is commonly called a kB or "Ka Boom". Please, Please consult a reloading manual and an experienced reloader before you get started. A good way to lose fingers and eyes otherwise. IIRC, the bullet weight of the service 7.62 ammo (C21 Ball) is 150 grains, FMJ BT Sptizer. The military load is around 44-45 gr of WC846, with Hodgdon BL-C(2) as equivalent. Again, that‘s just FYI, please don‘t go load that without confirming it in a manual first. I use the Speer manual myself, but whatever one suits you is good. 

Re your website...
Your description of C77 Ball  (what we use) vs. M855 Ball (what the Yanks use) is wrong. C77 and M855 are identical, both in powder charge and bullet type (62 gr SS109). The tumbling you refer to does indeed occur, but not in the air as is commonly misunderstood. The bullet, providing it is going faster than 2700 fps, will upset and usually fragment when it hits someone. This occurs out to about 150m with the 20" bbl C7 and M16A2. The 5.56 is by no means the "pus*y round" as you call it, it is actually far more devastating within 200m than 7.62 NATO. Barrier penetratiuon leaves a bit to be desired, but terminal effects in a person are traumatic to say the least. The temporary and premanent wound cavity from C77/M855 is considerably larger than with 7.62, where 5.56 falls flat is at ranges past 200 - 300m. Anyone want to guess where the majority of shootings in combat take place? Try the vast majority happen at ranges under 100m. At this range 5.56 is deadly, far more so than 7.62

For Ghost778, the 7.62mm NATO round is actually extremely similar to the civvy .308 Winchester round. It is accepted as safe to fire military 7.62 in civvy guns, but not always the other way around. Chamber pressures for SAMMI spec .308 can be considerably higher than for 7.62 NATO. 7.62X54 is actually the rimmed Russian round, as used in the Mosin Nagant series and their medium machine guns. The correct name is 7.62x54R (for rimmed), not 7.62x54 Winchester. There should be no worries shooting C21 ball and C19 trace out of your Rem 700, except that trace is harder on the barrel, especially if it isn‘t chrome lined.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Jan 2003)

Not to get into this vs that stuff. When I was on ex in Tuk, I was the safety man in case any polar bears came to close. I was issued a FN C1 with 20 rounds of 180 grain, soft nose .308 Winchester manufactured by Dominion.


----------



## armd_recce (16 Jan 2003)

Right, nothing inherently wrong with interchanging 7.62 and .308. The FN is a strong design, and could well handle pressures generated by the .308 case as well as heavier bullet. 

Like the differences between .223 and 5.56mm. They‘re there, but not always dangerous or even noticable. 

The biggest point I‘d want to make though, it that as often as you hear that experience counts, with firearms that‘s not the whole story. Evidence along the lines of "I did it once" "My buddy did it once" is not really compelling... Knowledge is key here if you‘re reloading and don‘t want to eventually get hurt. Maybe it didn‘t fail that time, but fatigue in weapons is not only cumulative, but dependent on hundreds of factors. Knowledge keeps you safe. Read, learn, then do.


----------



## Hayrick (16 Jan 2003)

Just so everyone knows.  Civilians are allowed to use DND ranges providing they belong to a Gun Club recognized by DND and have made arrangements to use a particular range.  That they must have an RSO present that has been appointed by the gun club as competent in running a range.  Also they have to abide by any range standing orders proscribed by range control.  This is just a note for Dixon.  Get rid of your IVI brass.  You may have bought it legally but it is still IVI and not to be taken off the range.  Who is to know that you bought it instead of taking it off the range.  Personally I stay away from any brass with military markings on it so as not to cause any questions of where I got it or if I should have it. But then that is solely up to you.


----------



## Harry (16 Jan 2003)

Well as Dixon‘s neighbor, so to speak, but not defending him

Yes IVI is a prob.  But good ole DND in someoneâ€™s infinite wisdom packaged up spent casings and declared them SURPLUS SCRAP METAL, MUNITIONS.

But instead of them being picked up by a smelter or what not for recycling.  They found themselves sold as a bulk item (mixed metal-general)(as an example).

So our lad Dixon may have got a deal, but Hayrick is partially right.  It isn‘t worth the hassle to get picked up with reloads.

IVI is a mil ball round and under the great ITAR rules and other restrictive laws, rules and regulations a gray area looking for a test case.  Being a young man, Dixon, it really isn‘t worth it.

I consulted for a couple of big and small businesses last year concerning ITAR items.  Regardless of the fact DND sold the stuff as bulk scrap, the actual original kit was listed as controlled.  What a nightmare.  

And yes I know what reloading is all about, try explaining how you reloaded a spent cartridge to a guy who has no concept of what you are talking about.  All he will see is the IVI on the bottom (you may at that time note a slight saliva trail on the corner of his mouth as he prepares for the kill, which would be you...

In my opinion and mine only.  Reload all you want, but expect one day some clown in a suit from Hull to knock on your door, seize your ammo and threaten you with a baseball bat called ITAR.

Oh yeah you will also get a CPIC entry, flagged and tagged by the Controlled Goods clown patrol and pretty much disgusted by most anything government there after.  All without court time or ever being afforded your rights as guaranteed by the nefarious Constitution this government has gone out of their way to subvert.

This is one mans opinion.   :rocket:


----------



## sgtdixon (22 Jan 2003)

Well if what Harry says is true then
   That could mean i could be of having quiiiite a hard time joining the Army next year, double    Thanks for the Info Harry. BTW does anybody want to buy 100 rounds of Brass...hehe joking , im just going to take it to Wholesale Sports in Edmonton and sell it to them, they can deal with it there, Because i dont want any cogs in the gears come August.
FYI if anyone wants to try something just to see how powerful a Rifle primer is, when you reload just load primer, no charge no bullet and fire that and see how big it actualy is  :rocket:


----------



## CH1 (19 Jan 2005)

Great advice!  The reason you do not reload .303 brass for the SMLE is simple. Loose head spacing & loose breeches.  Also the SMLE's were designed around the Cordite charge.  The brass is also usually thin just above the head and will separate.  It is possible to reload for this round but I have found that even the reload manuals are too generous with the powders.  I did reload for awhile, until a batch I was working with did some thing even a .50 couldn't.  It spun me & sat me on my can.  I had already accurised the Rifle I was using.  So be very careful!!!  Also make sure the SMLE is a later version or better yet have an armourer you trust check it out carefully.  There is examples of these on walls with a split from breach to muzzle.  BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Navalsnpr (19 Jan 2005)

CH1 said:
			
		

> The brass is also usually thin just above the head and will separate.



This past Oct, I was an RSO for a Target / F Class competition for the local rifle association. There was a person shooting a LE # 4 re-barrelled to .308 (originally it was .303). Anyways, he was re-loading civi brass with a proven load. This was the second time he had reloaded this lot of brass and the casing did separate.  

The result was this:







That's a piece of the casing that was extracted through the bolt assembly and into my arm where I was standing 12 feet away.

If you are going to re-load, read up on it and be exact in your measurements.

That's my 2 cents!


----------



## CH1 (20 Jan 2005)

Oh joy!  If that #4 SMLE has been re barreled to .308, I would be retthinking & checking it closely.  Something is amiss.  My long range is a P14 Redone & rebarrelled to 7.62x51 Nato by the Brit Arsenal with an S & L 30 in bull barrel.  With the standard 147 gr Cdn rnd it cloverleafs out to 500 yds with out too much sweat.  Absolutely no problem with mil or civie brass.  shoots sweet.


----------

