# Civie career after RMC?



## mavericknm

My question is this. What are the prospects of entering the civillian sector after completing the mandatory service period upon graduating from RMC? More specificaly, what kind of salary can I expect by getting a civillian job comparison to continuing in the military taking into account of benefits. How well do most companies value a RMC education versus a civie university such as Waterloo. In addition, what level of work would one be able to find in the civillian sector and how transferable is the experience gained from those 5 years of mandatory enlistment. 

Personaly I plan to go into electrical / mech / computer engineering. How well does the experience of being a pilot or a marine combat engineer or even a combat engineer go towards say getting a job designing airplanes at bombardier. What I also mean to say is would I be considered as straight out of university or a person who has had 5 years of engineering experience. From what I have read about the job desciptions of marine engineers and combat engineers, there doesn't seem to be much civilian transferable experience. Infact it seems even a little blue collared. For example the forces.gc website says that an engineer (army) may be expected to fight as infantry. Sounds fun but how transferable is this skill? So from what I have seen so far, it seems that an education at RMC pretty much means your staying in the military for good.

One user asked before of how many graduates of RMC per year actualy enter the civilian sector after completing the mandatory service. This question was never answered so I ask again.

Also just some personaly info to help you see where I stand. I have read the entire RMC website, all of the job descriptions for people with engineering degrees and the entire RMC brosure including CD-ROM. I am in grade 11 with a high 80s average although I expect it to increase. I have been a cadet for three years now. Unfortunately I am not the most athletic but I don't see any problem for me to change that. I've got my sights set on getting a bachelors in engineering and thats a fact. I also would like to follow it up with graduate work which seems to be somewhat difficult if I do enter the military. So far my choices for post-secondary are among Waterloo U of T and RMC.

I would greatly appreciate disscusion and answers. If any RMC and ROTP university graduates/students could help that would be great.

Thanks


----------



## mavericknm

Along with the question above. Really wish I had the engineers in the military CD but I don't. What is it like to be an engineer in the armed forces. This is a question for everyone. How much is comanding 40 sappers actualy like civilian engineer. Seems absolutely nothing like an office job drawing stuff with auto cad. Someone said that an officer running through a course did very badly and believe it or not their history degree is of no use to them. I love that but seriously how much of value does your degree actualy have? seems quite redundant.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

If you are already considering what you are going to do once you have paid back the mandatory time, do us all a favour (particularly the soldiers you will be given the privilege of commanding), and stay on civvie street.


----------



## Journeyman

You will get a MUCH higher paying job, more fullfillment, respect, lots of chicks, if you avoid the military and go to a civie university, then right into the workforce. With your clear focus and well thought-out priorities, you'll likely be offered a high-six-figure starting salary. [sarcasm off] Oh, and you won't have the opportunity of harming soldiers...who are worth more than you will ever likely be.


----------



## Journeyman

Piper said:
			
		

> Don't take away money from those who do want to do their duty and don't think about leaving right off the bat



Ya. That's what I _meant_ to say.....my post just didn't come out as a polite   ;D


----------



## mavericknm

ohh sorry bout the reaction. Well that was really helpfull lol. seriously thanks for letting me know the difference. I'm still not sure which path I'l take but at least now I know there is a large difference. I hope you understand I mean absolutely no disrespect towards the military and see it as a very good option which I know I would enjoy. Its just that I thought there might be a way to have the best of both worlds. Anyways thanks and I hope you will forgive me.


----------



## bbbb

Very high I would think, especially if you are a pilot I would say.


----------



## FredDaHead

Piper said:
			
		

> (some people just want to do one period of service, not everyone is a lifer).



And some people wanna get a free education, well-paid job experience, and then go on civvie street and get shitloads of money. (IE, most pilots, it seems...) What was your point again?

Now, if the question had been "if I get out after 15-20 years" the reaction would be different. But someone saying right off the bat, before even applying, that they only want to get in, do five years and get out, doesn't command nearly the same reaction.

Now, mavericknm, from what I understand, work experience AND a degree, in engineering, mean a good, high-paying job, no matter what. (Even with just the degree your prospects are pretty damn good) I'm not advisor or anything and I don't have any personal experience--just going by what I've heard here. I'd say following Piper's suggestion of going civvie and then, if you still want in the military, going as DEO, is probably the only good idea you have, if you really want to be in the military for five years. But that's just my future-ring-knocker opinion.


----------



## bbbb

A lot of the people I know at RMC are there for the degree and expressed no intention of staying for a long-term career in the CF. It's that easy there.


----------



## TDV-Arte-et-Marte

mavericknm said:
			
		

> I also would like to follow it up with graduate work which seems to be somewhat difficult if I do enter the military.
> 
> Thanks



Not true. In fact, certain trades will allow you to obtain your P. Eng (Professional Engineer) with your military occupation. Also, don't expect to
(as in you won't) get pass the rank of Major without a graduate degree of some sort (under some Vision 2020 plan). The military will offer you numerous opportunities to do graduate work.


----------



## Strike

Frederik G said:
			
		

> And some people wanna get a free education, well-paid job experience, and then go on civvie street and get shitloads of money. (IE, most pilots, it seems...) What was your point again?



Hmm, let's see.  Considering the majority of pilots in the CF are flying helicopters, the chances of them being picked up by Big Red or any other airline once they get out, are pretty slim.  To top it off, most airlines would have a hard time paying us the same salary we are currently receiving, at least for the first 5 years.  Commercial helicopter flying consists of long hours with little time off (not many weekends -- I've seen people fly 40 days straight before getting 2 days off) with no competition wrt pay.  Other choices consist of going out of country (and out of continent) to be able to actually see more money than the military pays.

So, what does this little speech mean?  It means Frederik, that you should not make such sweeping generalizations.  If you want to make a generalization about military pilots, it's that many (notice I did not use the word MOST) of them would be quite happy to put in as much time as they can, never getting promoted past the rank of Captain, thus assuring they remain in a flying position longer.

I'll take that apology for your insult to me and my colleagues any time now.

BTW -- If you are Navy, why is your rank Army?


----------



## 23007

2 guys I live with here are currently doing Masters through distance learning while they are waiting for their courses in Moose Jaw. Anything is possible in the military, all you have to do is ask.


----------



## Strike

bbbb said:
			
		

> A lot of the people I know at RMC are there for the degree and expressed no intention of staying for a long-term career in the CF. *It's that easy there.*



And what, pray tell, is that suposed to mean?  I thought you were going to civvie U.  How would you know it was "easy" if you aren't going to school there?  If you're grtting this info from artsmen (fun dig there) I suggest that you take it with a grain of salt.  Go talk to an engineer.  Actually, go talk to someone in the Chem Eng course.  They might have a different view of how "easy" it is there.

bbbb, I swear to God, if you keep bashing RMC with assumed notions ("I once heard a guy say to another guy that he overheard someone say..." does not constitue solid knowledge), I will have to take further action.


----------



## aesop081

bbbb said:
			
		

> Very high I would think, especially if you are a pilot I would say.



I hate to break it to you lips but after Canada 3000 went tits up...pilots are in the same boat as everyone else.  Guys with engineering degrees from RMC ( chemical, environmental, civil, mechanical, etc....) have just as much of a chance of finding work after the CF and so do others with various degrees. I have so far only witnessed one pilot leave the CF for the airlines.....count them .....1.......  You are realy starting to burn my a$$ with your comments on this site so far.  I realy cant wait to see if you make it past MJ  :  Strike has already breifed you on the post-CF pilot employement so i wont dwell on it...time for you to to go into EMCON and step away from the keyboard.


----------



## FredDaHead

WRT pilots and not staying in, that's just what the majority of them here at RMC (though not all of them) have been saying. "Oh yeah, I'm gonna get my free education, get trained on transports, and then go fly for Air Canada and get 100K a year doing an easy job." ...That's what a lot of them are saying. I'm not saying ALL of them are that way, just the vocal ones. 

WRT my rank being "army," well, I'm at RMC, so I'm not allowed to say "hey, look at me, I'm Navy!" (except on MOC weekend) I'm not allowed to have any kit, be it Army (which we get yelled at if we don't have) or Navy (which we can't get) and so I'm usually either in 5's or combats, so I just wanted to represent what I actually wear on a regular basis.


----------



## bbbb

Why would you not be able to say and I quote "hey, look at me, I'm Navy!"? There is no shame in expressing your role within the CF. If you are navy then you should be able to say that with pride regardless of what the army guys say. Being in the Navy is something to be proud of, not subordinate to the army. The navy and air force are equal to the army in every respect, well except for the top general, who obviously commands all of them.


----------



## FredDaHead

bbbb said:
			
		

> Why would you not be able to say and I quote "hey, look at me, I'm Navy!"? There is no shame in expressing your role within the CF. If you are navy then you should be able to say that with pride regardless of what the army guys say. Being in the Navy is something to be proud of, not subordinate to the army. The navy and air force are equal to the army in every respect, well except for the top general, who obviously commands all of them.



That's not the point. Basically, at RMC, "we are all green." We're not allowed to wear NCDs for example, and so when we're not in 5's or 4's (or Scarlets...) we're in relish dress. It really takes away from the idea of being a Naval Officer, and it does make one feel "subordinate" to the other services. Add to that the fact we're not allowed to wear our Navy goretex or tuque with combats, but we're not entitled to have a green goretex or a green tuque... Makes the Navy people feel like "second-class citizens" so to speak.

Hopefully, the retiring of 5's, being replaced by elemental dress (3's) will help make the Naval Cadets feel like we're actually in the Navy, and not workers in some kind of demented _arbeitslager_ who aren't allowed to wear anything but the drab, ugly clothes they give us.


----------



## 23007

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Hopefully, the retiring of 5's, being replaced by elemental dress (3's)



Is this actually going to happen?!?! When Rear Admiral Morse was there he was trying to get rid of the 5's but that idea got canned once Bgen Leclerc took over. Is the new commandant going to do away with the college dress? I hope not...
Although the new commandant was the old Dcdts under Morse so maybe it was his idea...


----------



## Strike

Frederik,

Well, those pilots who all think they are going to be going multi engine and will thus be able to pad their CV are going to get a big shock when they get through MJ, cause most of them will probably be going helos.  If they don't believe you when you pass this info on to them, tell them to go see Capt Chambers or the Deputy DCdts.

As for the rank, this is one of the few places where "The Man" has little to no control over you.  Enjoy the freedom.  Show your pride in being part of the senior service, and stick it to "The Man".  PUT A NAVY RANK IN YOUR AVATAR!!!!

Can I hear some encouragement from the gallery?

"Na-vy Rank! Na-vy Rank!"


----------



## Big Foot

Na-vy Rank! Na-vy Rank!

That what you were looking for, Strike?


----------



## Strike

Woohoo!!


----------



## Bograt

Would it be appropriate to make a smart ass comment concerning all the meanings of the word RANK? 

RANK
1. A relative position in a society; 
2. To give a particular order or position to; classify. (v)
3. Strong and offensive in odor or flavor (adj)

Navy Rank- What exactly were you suggesting Strike? 

And to all my Navy friends, no you do not smell that bad.

--------

On another note, kudoes to the fellow inquiring about life after RMC. Yes there is life after RMC. It is also important to understand the responsibility associated with life as an officer. It is a privilage to serve as one.

BBBBB, I quickly looked at your profile, I see you are doing a History BA. Not sure how you remember all those dates. It must be very challenging. Life at a Civilian university is very distracting, and you must be doing very well to stay focused on "sufferage movements in Precolonial America."

Fredrick- Sorry to hear about the fellows at Hogwarts who want to give up the best job in the world to espire to be glorified bus drivers. Maybe their prespective will change as they mature.


----------



## aesop081

Bograt said:
			
		

> Would it be appropriate to make a smart *** comment concerning all the meanings of the word RANK?



Bograt, you and i go back what ? 490 posts ?

Don't make me remind you that your "smart ass coments" priveleges were revoked, by me, a while back  :threat:


----------



## Bograt

AESOP,

I need a 12 step program. I need to have a look over at the Family Resource Centre and inquire whether there is an empathy course available. If however I am restricted from using SAC (Smart Ass Comments), my posts would be limited to Aircrew selection, back hair remedies, and the Newfoundland Seal hunt.

Isn't there a Russian sub you should be harassing off BC?


----------



## FredDaHead

Bograt said:
			
		

> Isn't there a Russian sub you should be harassing off BC?



I thought the Russians were our friends now? (Why does that remind me of Terminator 2?)

Perhaps our little airdale friend should be chasing _Chinese_ subs... or playing pranks on American subs, maybe?


----------



## SupersonicMax

You know what, getting a free education and then leave after 5 years isn't bad at all.  This is an investment for Canada.  After all, we pay our education with a 5 years contract.  Getting flight experience isn't bad eighter I think.  I sure woud like one day to retire or release and fly airliners.  Stop thinking about "Military, Military and only military".  The day (after my contract of course) the military won't satisfy my needs (challenge, money, opportunities), I'll release/retire.

SupersonicMax


----------



## FredDaHead

If money is one of your principal interests in being in the CF, I'd advise you to put in your release papers ASAP. I'm sure there are mercenary outfits out there who'd be glad to provide you with lots of money for your military services.

Yes, it's good to have plans for after the military, but stating expressly that your main interest is in yourself and your bank account, reflects poorly on you. I know I'll probably move on to another job after my CF career is over, and I'm already thinking about it, but I'm not already planning it out and thinking "hmmm, I'll serve 5 years after RMC, get my BWC and go command a cruise ship so I can get lots of money AND live in nice sunny places."


----------



## ROTP Applicant

Frederik G said:
			
		

> If money is one of your principal interests in being in the CF, I'd advise you to put in your release papers ASAP. I'm sure there are mercenary outfits out there who'd be glad to provide you with lots of money for your military services.



We all have our motivations for a career in the CF (e.g. challenge, lifestyle, money), and it is not up to you to decide whether or not someone should leave after their initial time commitment has been fullfilled. As long as the person performs his/her duties to a satisfactory standard, you should be indifferent to his/her career choices.


----------



## clasper

And to elaborate on the different career options out there, I'll explain my experience and that of some of my colleagues (I'm an engineer in the civvy world).  I paid my way through university as an NCO in the reserves.  After graduating, I spent a year playing army games, before I found a company that valued my military experience highly (I work in the oilfield, which has many similarities to the military, culture-wise).  I have worked with several other former reservists, including RETP types from RMC (I haven't met any ROTP types in my travels in this company, but they might exist).  I have had similar opportunities to travel the world that military people experience (I've seen the middle of nowhere in several countries), and I've experienced some of the difficulties of military-style life- I get posted every two years or so, which makes a personal life something of a challenge.  Compensation is good (higher than the military), but workload is also high (in 8 years in this company, I have never been the 9 to 5 type).

So to generalize, there are many companies out there that will value whatever military experience you have, IF you learned the valuable lessons that the military has to offer.  If you're simply a ring-knocker with a check-box on his resume, companies that value the military experience and ethic will have you for breakfast.  If you're interested in a "traditional engineering job" like a design engineer at Bombardier, those 5 years as a combat engineering officer will only really help you from a personal and management experience perspective.  That's not nothing, but some companies (like Spar Aerospace, for example) won't care at all.

So to the originator of this thread, I'll ask the following (rhetorical) questions: What do you want to learn out of your military experience?  Is the military the best place to learn those things?  Is RMC the best place to learn those things?  What sort of job do you want in 5 years?  In 10 years?  In 1 year?  Will military experience lead you to that, or is it an interesting sidetrack?  Perhaps you should pursue a reservist career while developing your engineering career fresh out of university.  Or perhaps you should go for a reg force career.  There are many different options out there, depending on the experience you're looking for.


----------



## DG-41

OK, RMC cadets, listen up: I'm about to dispense some hard-won wisdom that I wish to GOD somebody had given me back in the day.

When I was at CMR, most of our talk about degree programs, just like yours, was "what would we be able to do with it once our hitch was up". The focus was on getting a degree, doing our service to pay the degree off, and then going to work civvie-side and making the big bucks - and it sounds like this has not changed.

That's not a suprise; the way most of us were recruited was with the idea of subsidised education.

But here is the cold hard fact of the matter: THE PURPOSE OF RMC IS TO PREPARE YOU FOR A LIFETIME CAREER IN THE FORCES AS AN OFFICER. The Powers That Be, for whatever reason, go out of their way to avoid ever putting it that bluntly, but that AND NO OTHER REASON, is the purpose behind this institution.

If you are evaluating your education at RMC in terms of what you will do once your hitch is up, you have completely and utterly missed the point - which, sadly, places you in good company, given how poorly this has been communicated over the years. 

Well, I'm telling you now: attending RMC is what builds the base for your future military career. You need to be taking advantage of all that this incredible institution offers you with an eye towards becoming the best possible officer, and with the foreknowledge that you are in for the long haul here. If you are thinking in terms of a free degree, a term of service, and then a civvie life, you are categorically in the wrong place.

I fell into the "free degree and a civvie job" trap, and it very nearly ruined me. I stuck with a trade I didn't really want (Pilot, then Signals) instead of the one that had been calling me (Armour) because my friends kept talking me out of the transfer with horror stories about combat arms officers being unable to find employment, as all that experience was useless civvie side. I stuck with a degree program I didn't like (Computer Science) instead of the one that I loved (MilStud) for the same reason - computer experts get employment, where Mil Studs do not - COMPLETELY and FOOLISHLY overlooking what should have been the primary goal all along; to become a career Armoured officer. Civvie-side employment isn't an issue if you never become a civvie - and having been one, let me tell you unequivocally that being a civvie sucks golf balls through garden hose. 

I have very, very few regrets in life, but the one that haunts me regularly was how utterly STUPID I was to not transfer into Armour and MilStud the second I realized that that's what I really wanted to do. Everything else that has happened to me since has been a direct consequence of that impossibly poor decision, based 100% on forcasting my employment potential civvie-side.

(Although, the irony of it is that my employment civvie-side for the past dozen years has been built on all the computer science work I did at CMR; proving that the Universe has a sick and twisted sense of humour)

Do what you love, and the money will take care of itself. If you don't love the military, then you are in the wrong place.

DG
CMR '87-'91 18145


----------



## Journeyman

Oh man, you HAD them until....


			
				RecceDG said:
			
		

> (Although, the irony of it is that my employment civvie-side for the past dozen years has been built on all the computer science work I did at CMR;


Now they're saying "see, civie-focused education is the right path."  

OK, guys.....cut out that bit, photocopy it, and post it all over the College! The gist of his message is golden.


----------



## FredDaHead

Journeyman said:
			
		

> OK, guys.....cut out that bit, photocopy it, and post it all over the College! The gist of his message is golden.



Is that an order?

"But DSM, Capt Journeyman _ordered_ me to do it!"


----------



## FredDaHead

Piper said:
			
		

> Tell the DSM the voices in your head said so.



I don't think that's gonna fly. But then again, neither do our birds.

I still say a Captain ordered me to do it would work better. Or I could just do it at 4am so nobody will see me put them up.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Stay in Ft Sauvé and stay quiet 1st year... 

Max


----------



## DG-41

> Now they're saying "see, civie-focused education is the right path."



Well, *Verite*, Devoir, Valliance, eh?

But what I perhaps failed to mention is that my lackluster performance and eventual ejection from CMR (at the end of 3rd year, having done 4 years total) was *ENTIRELY* due to doing what I was *supposed* to do (to get civvie side employment) instead of what I *wanted* to do. (make a career of the combat arms)

And by so doing, outsmarted myself.

Had I followed my heart, instead of my head (and that took my friends working on me to change my mind back) I would have successfully completed the academic programme, gone on (one hopes) to a successful career, and never needed the civvie-side-focused education at all.

Put another way, by concentrating on civvie-side employment potential, I guaranteed I needed it.

DG


----------



## clasper

RecceDG said:
			
		

> Do what you love, and the money will take care of itself.


The best advice given in this thread so far.


----------



## mavericknm

Its been a while since I've checked the forum. I'd like to thank RecceDG and clasper for their insightful posts. Feels better to know that I'm not the only victim of free education syndrome. I'm not going to ask the military to change their recruiting program but it has been quite misleading and perhaps they are not getting the people they want but thats a different discussion. It looks like my out look will be a civillian career. Although I'm sure I will miss the experience of being an officer. I guess in the mean time I'll stick to cadets and watch. Anyway thanks for all the valuable discussion.


----------



## scoutfinch

If you aren't sure you want a military career, then attend a civilian university to get your education.  If you decide after graduation that you want to join the military, then go DEO.  Otherwise, don't take up a position that could be filled by an individual who is committed to serving in the CF after graduation.

I am trying to be fair with my comments but I confess that the notion that you have started comtemplating your civilian career before you have even been accepted to RMC disgusts me.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Well, RMC educate tomorrow's leader... For Canada in my opinion.. Not only for the military... This opinion is also shared by many people managing RMC too...

Max


----------



## George Wallace

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Well, RMC educate tomorrow's leader... For Canada in my opinion.. Not only for the military... This opinion is also shared by many people managing RMC too...
> 
> Max



How did I guess that you are a RMC Cadet?


----------



## SupersonicMax

Well... Almost not an RMC cadet anymore... 47 Days...  But I still think that way... It's not because we have subsitised education (that we, by the way, pay by giving 5 years to the military after graduation) that we can't take that opportunity for a civilian career after...  I don't see what's wrong with that...

Max


----------



## SupersonicMax

Oh well, I'll do what's best for me. I have aspirations in life.  If the CF makes me happy after 7 years (well, it's 7 years after wings for pilots...)  I'll stay if not, I'll go.  Believe me though that I'll do my job the best I can during those mandatory service years...  I'll be loyal to the organisation.  And yes the military is, for me, a scholarship as any I could have gotten if I went to a civilian university.  Free education, free flight training (very good flight training in fact), free flying experience on great planes.  

The CFs is, to my eyes like any other jobs... The day yourmy job doesn't fulfill my requirements (short and medium terms), I'll quit.  

If the CFs weren't not happy about people like me then I don't believe they would make advertisement through publicity and CFRC that they offer a free education.

Max


----------



## George Wallace

WOW!

After that statement, you ought to read this post and then familiarize yourself with the rest of that topic:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40546/post-361271.html#msg361271


----------



## SeaKingTacco

> The CFs is, to my eyes like any other jobs... The day yourmy job doesn't fulfill my requirements (short and medium terms), I'll quit.
> 
> If the CFs weren't not happy about people like me then I don't believe they would make advertisement through publicity and CFRC that they offer a free education.
> 
> Max



Max,

I'm glad to hear that you have the world wired tight... at 22.

On your quick, post MilCol victory lap through the CF as a pilot, do me and everyone else a big favour- stay the hell away from the Maritime Helicopter world.  Based on what I have read so far, you would not like it.  It is too little like a "job" and too much like "a way of life".

Cheers.


----------



## aesop081

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Max,
> 
> I'm glad to hear that you have the world wired tight... at 22.
> 
> On your quick, post MilCol victory lap through the CF as a pilot, do me and everyone else a big favour- stay the hell away from the Maritime Helicopter world.  Based on what I have read so far, you would not like it.  It is too little like a "job" and too much like "a way of life".
> 
> Cheers.



I'll add stay away from LRPA as well. .


----------



## Wookilar

Just a quick point, so everybody doesn't loose all hope in our primary officer production facility: not all of them are like that. Most, in fact, in my experience here so far, are serious about a career. I have met many "kids" (and I mean no offence, my oldest son is older than most of them. He's still a kid, they're still kids), while on course and at RMC, that I would willingly work for and with. Anytime, anywhere. There are some who will do their mandatory time, take their money (pension) and run, and they are vocal about it. Nothing to be done there.
Our friend Max does have a point though (twisted and unprofessional, it may be). As long as he does his "job" to the utmost of his abilities, as long as he takes his responsibilities as an Officer in the CF, wearing the Queen's Commission, seriously, I will not hunt him down.
As soon as I find out that anyone that he is responsible for suffers from a lack of caring/conviction/whatever, it begins.

I'm just wondering, what were you doing when you swore your Oath/Affirmation? Did you have your fingers crossed? What are you going to do upon Commissioning? Will your scroll, and what is written on it, be just a piece of paper? I hope, over the next few years, that you realize what kind of organization you have joined. And I also hope, that it will come to mean something to you. Max, you have missed the point so badly that I feel kind of sorry for you. But I feel worse for the troops that you will command someday.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I really believe in the CF... Believe it or not!  The only thing I say is that I will keep my options opened after my mandatory service.  WIll I quit?  I don't know.  But right now I love the CFs.  Am I dedicated to the CF?  100%.  Am I proud of serving my country?  Prouder than anyone.  Would I do anything else than pilot?  Hell yeah.  I'm not saying that at the least little problem I'll quit. Not at all!  Will I (Do I) have a bad attitude?  No! Do I look forward to a CF career?  Ideally. 

All I'm saying is that yes it is possible to consider something else after your mandatory service and it's NOT a crime (otherwise, the CF wouldn't have put those reg in place, like 5 years after grad, 7 years after the wings) 

If after 7 years, I'm just not pleased with the way it works, will I quit?  Yeah..  I don't see why someone should stay in an environment he's not confortable in...  But for now, I love it!

Max


----------



## clasper

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Well, RMC educate tomorrow's leader... For Canada in my opinion.. Not only for the military... This opinion is also shared by many people managing RMC too...
> 
> Max


Funny... when I was accepted to Queen's, they told me _they_ were educating Canada's leaders of tomorrow.  I'm sure McGill and U of T (as well as every other university) tell their students the exact same thing.  But keep knocking that ring!  :boring:  At least it lets us know who you are.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Thinking I'm a ring knocker is knowing me pretty bad...

Max


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Max,

It's free advice- take it for what it's worth.  Many people in the CF outside of RMC are deeply suspicious of the current product being produced from that august institution.  Your posting style played into the stereotype.  You may want to consider this a small taste of the reaction you are likely to produce in your superiors and subordinates, if you display a "I'm going to use the CF for my benefit alone" attitude, once you hit the flight line.

You are correct- the contract is there for a reason.  You may honourably leave the military at the end of your obligatory service and not feel that you owe the CF anything.  I wish you well, if that is what you choose.  Just be a bit careful on focussing on your exit strategy, when you have barely got your foot in the door.  Portage, Moose Jaw, the OTU and your first Sqn are a long haul if all you care about is that Air Canada job in 2014...

Cheers.


----------



## DG-41

Two points I want to address:



> Feels better to know that I'm not the only victim of free education syndrome. I'm not going to ask the military to change their recruiting program but it has been quite misleading and perhaps they are not getting the people they want but that's a different discussion. It looks like my out look will be a civilian career. Although I'm sure I will miss the experience of being an officer. I guess in the mean time I'll stick to cadets and watch. Anyway thanks for all the valuable discussion.





> Just a quick point, so everybody doesn't loose all hope in our primary officer production facility: not all of them are like that. Most, in fact, in my experience here so far, are serious about a career. I have met many "kids" (and I mean no offence, my oldest son is older than most of them. He's still a kid, they're still kids), while on course and at RMC, that I would willingly work for and with. Anytime, anywhere.



During my 4 years at CMR, I was exposed to a lot of different people and leadership styles. Not only amongst fellow cadets, but also from staff - professors, drill staff, PERI staff, and the College leadership. I got to see people like Col Daigle (CO of the VanDoos at Oka) and Gen Dallaire in action - and some others who didn't distinguish themselves anywhere near as well.

One of the weird little paradoxes I discovered was that cadets who excelled at "playing the game"; the guys who did everything perfectly and by the numbers, usually made crappy officers. The guys who got in trouble, struggled a little (or a lot), "retreads"... for some reason, they made the best practical officers.

Being a retread myself, I have to confess that I'm not entirely without bias here - but it was something I noticed even before I walked the retread path, so I consider it a valid observation (if anything, it's something I try to live up to, not something I assume is universally true)

In my *cough* graduating class, there were maybe a dozen people who I would follow without hesitation, anywhere, without question. There were another dozen who I'd happily follow out of a sense of morbid curiosity and latent _schadenfreude_, and the rest were grey men who probably did their time and got out without anybody ever noticing one way or the other. Of those I'd've followed anywhere, about 2/3rds were retreads.

That's not to say that these guys were saints... one of the best personal leaders I've ever known, a guy so steeped in the military ethos that he was almost a caricature, and hyper-competent, every once and a while he'd tap-dance all over his own genitals by doing something so what-were-you-THINKING stupid... And my own career progression is not without adding some bootprints to my own John Thomas.....

But the point I'm making is that yes, RMC can and does produce effective leaders - but they are (sadly) rare. And I think that the ratio of good ones to grey men could be enormously increased with some truth in recruiting and some better councilling early on in their careers. If I could go back in time and 'splain some things to my 17-year-old-dumbass self... well who knows - but I THINK some unpleasant things could have been avoided, and the army would have gotten a much more effective soldier in the process.

But I also want to point something else out - my membership in the Canadian Forces Bizarre Career Path Club has actually done me, personally, a great deal of good. It was a HELL of a way to get here... but I learned a lot along the way and I think I'm a better officer for it. So if you really DO hear the call of leadership, if you really DO want to become an officer, don't let early setbacks dissuade you from your path. Never, ever, ever give up. Persistence in the face of extreme adversity is a core attribute of a successfull officer. At the end of the day, it is all about getting the mission accomplished No Matter What, about never ever throwing in the towel and conceding the enemy his victory. If you won't do that with your own life, how can we expect you to do that in the field?

DG


----------



## scoutfinch

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Thinking I'm a ring knocker is knowing me pretty bad...
> 
> Max



Does RMC still teach English? :


----------



## SupersonicMax

Sorry for beeing Francophone and not beeing perfectly bilingual...

Max


----------



## scoutfinch

Funny, the rest of your posts are well written and articulate.  When you get picked up for piss-poor English, it is a language barrier.  I don't think so...whether French is your first language or not.  You are perfectly competent in English.


----------



## SupersonicMax

TACCO, I understand your point and I'm not looking for Air Canada at all or any other civilian companies...  Don't think I'm thinking about leaving right now, no way, I wouldn't for anything.  That's the best job ever for me right now.  And I look forward to anything in the future with the CFs.  

But if sometimes in the future, I'm just not happy anymore as a military I'll quit.  And I think it would be better that way for the CFs and for me!  It's like a couple.. The day you're not happy with each other, you break up!!  

But as I said, I love the CFs right now, especially with all the new policies and tought at the higher levels that came up.  I really love the direction the CFs and the AF are going right now.

scoutfinch :  sincerly, that's the way I would write it.  I'm really not perfect in English and I can't write everything correctly (well, even in French).  A proof to that, my language profile is CCC, not EEE...

Max


----------



## scoutfinch

Well, kudos to you Max.  For the most part, you write very well in English.  Many people would be envious of your second language skills.  Keep up the good work and I apologize for jumping on you.  

SF


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Good Luck with finals and your future, Max.

Cheers.


----------



## Good2Golf

Max, je vous donnerai un peu de conseil gratuit afin de faciliter la croissance de votre carriere au futur:

...perhaps you should balance your publicly voiced thoughts of, "if I don't like the CF in the future. I'll leave" [which, as SeaKingTacco notes, is contractually fair game] with, "on the other hand, I may find that I enjoy serving my country so much, that I choose to continue my service!"  This will make your views on the future appear a bit more sincere and people will not be inclined to think that you are an opportunist (which is something that sets of warning bells for folks at all levels of the Chain of Command; subordinates, peers and superiors alike.)

Au plaisir,
Duey


----------



## 23007

I have to speak up for Max here. I know him a little bit as I did Prep year with him and a summer of OJT in Bagtown as well. One thing I should point out, and hopefully I don't offend you Max, is that after Prep Year Max decided to leave ROTP. He did a year of CEGEP and then went back to RMC as a first year. This is how I ended up a year ahead of him. But the fact that he returned to ROTP after having taken a year to think about it shows his dedication to the CF. He wasn't ready for it during Prep year, so who cares. He took a year off, thought about it, and got back in. And I can say that Max is dedicated to the CF and becoming a Pilot. 

As a side note, his english is MUCH better than my french even after living in Bagotville for the past year.

46 DTG Max. Congrats and have fun on your OJT.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Duey, merci pour le mot en français!

Yeah maybe my posts seems to be a bit negative.  And you are probably right saying that I should say the positive side of things for good publicity!  The thing is that I love beeing in the military right now.  I see myself in 15-20 years from now still in the CFs.  

One reason I took part of this discussion is that we talked about it in our Psychology and Ethics class last week.  The new generation of people enrolling (like myself) was raised in small families, beeing the only one (or almost) our parents cared about.  We had nearly everything we wanted.  That's the same with the jobs..  We are looking for what WE want.  That a bad attitude you'll say?  Perhaps.  But the reality is that, not only the CF, but the industry in general is faced with my kind of people, that will loyaly serve their company/the CF for XX years until it's just not good enough anymore. And I think that all the publicity about the free education comes from those facts.  But if this is always good enough, I'll stay (and I think most of the people would) for 100 years if I can.

Of course it won't always be the perfect job.  None is perfect.  I don't think people will quit for superficial reasons... Anyways, I hope not!!!  

Max

P.S.:  Thanks 23007


----------



## George Wallace

As Duey said.

Lessons Learned.

When posting your thoughts in a public medium, make sure your are clear and concise in what you want to say.  You are leaving a permanent record of your views, which are being assessed and evaluated by a great number of people.  Their impressions of you are being conceived by the words you write.  Those words can not be taken back.  First impressions last a long time.  

As they like to say at the Career Manager's Briefing: "You are your own Career Manager."  Ingratiating yourself after the fact does nothing to improve your situation.   Weight your thoughts and words before you publish them.


----------



## Franko

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Oh well, I'll do what's best for me. I have aspirations in life.  If the CF makes me happy after 7 years (well, it's 7 years after wings for pilots...)  I'll stay if not, I'll go.  Believe me though that I'll do my job the best I can during those mandatory service years...  I'll be loyal to the organisation.  And yes the military is, for me, a scholarship as any I could have gotten if I went to a civilian university.  Free education, free flight training (very good flight training in fact), free flying experience on great planes.
> 
> The CFs is, to my eyes like any other jobs... The day yourmy job doesn't fulfill my requirements (short and medium terms), I'll quit.
> 
> If the CFs weren't not happy about people like me then I don't believe they would make advertisement through publicity and CFRC that they offer a free education.
> 
> Max



Wow....a future officer, coming out of RMC spouting off like that instills so much confidence in all the NCOs reading it.

Did you forget to turn on the brain filter before typing this or is it on the fritz?

With a comment like the one you stated.....and I normally don't wish ill of anyone, I have to say this: I trully hope you flunk out of training.

That was the most self-centered, self serving dreck I've ever heard from an RMC cadet....further reinforcing a stereotype that has been ongoing for generations.

Well done you!


*sounds of rings hitting tables in the background*



> I don't think people will quit for superficial reasons... Anyways, I hope not!!!



Sounds like you have already have with the above quoted statement.     :




> First impressions last a long time.



George hit the nail on the head    


Regards


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Franko,

Ease off, old boy.  We are actually making some progress here with Max.  I'm not prepared to go back two pages of posts and start over again...


----------



## FredDaHead

It seems to me like the people who openly talk about leaving the CF after their mandatory service period are either pilots or preppies.

Now, I don't know that many pilots, and some are very dedicated to the CF, however, the majority of people I know who just want to do their time and get out, are pilots. Maybe it's just one of those weird coincidences that has no statistical value, and I hope so, but it struck me.

Also, people who have gone out and done stuff between leaving High School and joining the CF seem to have less of a desire to quit after doing their time. My friends who have gone through CEGEP instead of going to Prep year, mostly don't wanna do their time and quit. On the other hand, many preppies just want the free education. I think there's something to be said about that. I definately didn't suddenly become wise after two years of CEGEP (nobody does) but I think it helped me, and others like me, learn a tiny bit more about what the world is about. For those who went from HS to Prep, it seems that they went from being (potentially) sheltered by their parents and their school, to being sheltered by the military leadership, and didn't go out in the big bad world.

I'm not saying we shouldn't allow people to go straight to Prep, because that's the whole point of having it, but there's a definitive problem with the way RMC operates. Maybe the idea of IV years living in town will defuse some of those problems of not knowing what the world is about, but I don't know.

I hate to throw a problem out without at least a tentative solution, but for this one I'm stumped.

Oh, and before you guys flame me: this is what I've personally noticed, and I'm not saying RMC is absolutely without a doubt like that. As our little Pilot Max friend can attest, first years are stupid, anyways.


----------



## ark

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Oh well, I'll do what's best for me. I have aspirations in life.  If the CF makes me happy after 7 years (well, it's 7 years after wings for pilots...)  I'll stay if not, I'll go.  Believe me though that I'll do my job the best I can during those mandatory service years...  I'll be loyal to the organisation.  And yes the military is, for me, a scholarship as any I could have gotten if I went to a civilian university.  Free education, free flight training (very good flight training in fact), free flying experience on great planes.
> 
> The CFs is, to my eyes like any other jobs... The day yourmy job doesn't fulfill my requirements (short and medium terms), I'll quit.
> 
> If the CFs weren't not happy about people like me then I don't believe they would make advertisement through publicity and CFRC that they offer a free education.
> 
> Max



I’m curious to know if you said the same thing during your interview ?


----------



## SupersonicMax

Ark, I did say the exact same thing I just said.  And honestly, the Major that was interviewing me had the same opinion.  Maybe that's luck.  

Frederick.  I never said first year are stupid. If you can quote me on that I'd be pleased to admit it.  Everybody went through 1st year and yes that's a pain in the ass...

Oh and just so you know, I already live off campus.  I "am" in the "big bad world".  If you read the entire post, you could see that no, I don't expect to quit after mandatory service.  But I say that it is an option to be considered!  But as long as the CF are good enough, I'll stay...  I don't even think about end of mandatory service...  I think more about getting through MJ.

Max


----------



## Journeyman

Having followed this thread, one very similar with the same arguments and people, and watched it consume several evenings' chats, I finally see one useful bit of info..........



			
				RecceDG said:
			
		

> But I also want to point something else out - my membership in the *Canadian Forces Bizarre Career Path Club * has actually done me, personally, a great deal of good. It was a HELL of a way to get here... but I learned a lot along the way and I think I'm a better officer for it.



We have a CF Bizarre Career-Path Club?!  I am _SO_ in!!    Hell, I should be a charter member; why wasn't I told?  ;D


----------



## ZipperHead

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> <snip>
> But if sometimes in the future, I'm just not happy anymore as a military I'll quit.  And I think it would be better that way for the CFs and for me!  *It's like a couple.. The day you're not happy with each other, you break up!!  *
> <snip>
> Max


Since sarcasm is quite difficult to detect on the Internet (unless the 2 exclamation marks count as sarcasm), this speaks volumes about Generation X-Box: as soon as one encounters a problem (be it in life, in marriage, or the military), QUIT!!!! Hell yeah, just quit. Don't bother to try to tough it out. Don't talk it over. Dispose of your job, your spouse, or your children like yesterdays newspaper (you do know what one of those is, don't you?! They predate the internet and are handy for lining birdcages, or wrapping fish and chips in). 

I pray that that isn't your attitude, and you are being sarcastic. Please tell me that. Otherwise everything I have secretly thought bad about the youth of today (yes, I'm only 37, but sometimes feel like I am Rip Van Winkle, missing a good 500 years of so called progress in society), such as the records set for shortest marriage ever closing in on being measured with egg-timers rather than calendars. 

One thing I admire (if I can call it that) is your honesty. That's about it, though. But that's like saying "Yeah, I'm a shitty soldier: what of it?!?". Honesty doesn't make up for a lack of dedication, integrity or loyalty. Please don't go Armoured officer. Sometimes I think we have enough people like you already, but they just aren't bold enough to announce it in public, is all.

Al


----------



## DG-41

> We have a CF Bizarre Career-Path Club?



Didn't you get the memo? I gave it to the clerk...

...oh, right, he remustered to chaplain last week. Never mind.



> Please don't go Armoured officer. Sometimes I think we have enough people like you already



 ???

Are we in the same Corps?

DG


----------



## SupersonicMax

JourneyMan, didn't you read that I wouldn't quit for superficial reason?  And that I hope people don't quit for superficial reasons?  I mean, if someones is NOT happy with his life, why wouldn't he change it?  

I actually discussed that issue with few of my classmates and they seem to agree that it is indeed better for the CFs and yourself to quit if you're just not satisfied with what you are doing.  That just makes life easier for everybody in your environment.  Personnally, sometimes, I see people that hate what they are doing in the CFs and still staying and I don't think this is the right thing to do.  Yes it is something to serve your country but make it worthwhile, for the CF and for you.

Max


----------



## George Wallace

RecceDG said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Are we in the same Corps?
> 
> DG



 :-[  unfortunately many of us are.   :-[


----------



## Journeyman

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> JourneyMan, didn't you read that I wouldn't quit for superficial reason?  And that I hope people don't quit for superficial reasons?  I mean, if someones is NOT happy with his life, why wouldn't he change it?



Sorry Max, it wasn't my line. You're getting all defensive against the wrong person. I care only about the Bizarre Career-path Club!  

(which isn't to say I don't care about _you_.......   : .......but actually, no, I don't really care about you; go back several pages to the "initial impressions" point  )


----------



## SupersonicMax

If you base you first impressions over the internet, in front of a computer, I think this is a problem 

Maybe you aren't happy with the military :

Max


----------



## HItorMiss

Max...

Journeyman isn't the type you should make cracks about or even dismiss in the way you did, If I was an RMC cadet the last person I think I would wish to anger would be someone like Journeyman...that would be my friendly way of telling you to maybe ease up on the flipant comments in his general direction.

You have been given the friendly warning from me and some others from here on out it might not be so well worded...more like my response to you in the Chat last night.

Hit out!


----------



## SupersonicMax

Flippant wasn't the way this was supposed to go... That's why I used smileys.


----------



## HItorMiss

Further to my last,

As for not basing an opinion on words seen on the internet, My personal belief is that If you would think it and say it here then that's pretty much the way you are in person.

If you constantly describe someone as an A$$hole but.... then really eventually you gotta think isn't his over riding quality that he is just an A$$hole with a few good things thrown in?


----------



## HItorMiss

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Maybe you aren't happy with the military :



: is not a smiley....this  or this  ;D is...

what you put up is rolling your eyes, I'll let myself hope and believe it was a genuine mistake.


----------



## SupersonicMax

All right, I'll change it if I can...  Rolling the eyes with a smile means this is a joke to me but the important is the interpretation by the receiver 

Max


----------



## ZipperHead

RecceDG said:
			
		

> Are we in the same Corps?
> 
> DG



My reference about not going Armour officer was to Superdupersonic Minimum, or whatever his name is. I would look back, but whatever, that's difficult, so, like, you know, I gave up. That's a little humour at his expense. 

There are too many in the Corps (at all rank levels frankly) that think this way. And maybe my dig about a LOT of pilot washouts going Armour officer, and poisoning the Corps (IMO) with that type of mentality (SuperfluousMaxiPad's, that is) was probably lost on everyone, but me. 

I'll give up on the juvenile riffing on his "too kewl for words" screen name now.

Al


----------



## SupersonicMax

You can call me Max, that's fine with me


----------



## ZipperHead

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Maybe you aren't happy with the military :
> 
> Max



And further to my last: I think that you are right about him (HitOrMiss); I think that he *isn't* happy with what the military accepts for officer material these days: self-centered ME, ME, ME personality types (as attested to by the fact that you aren't the only one in your peer group who feels this way, as you mentioned in a previous post). 

Get what you can out of the military, and be gone with you. The military is a calling. Let the people that feel that way occupy it. We can do without the rest of society that only looks out for themselves.

Al


----------



## SupersonicMax

In fact, I'm REALLY happy with the military.  It has been a wonderful experience so far.  Not because of the education I get right now... Right now, this is my biggest motivationnal issue, school (only 2 weeks to go!!)  But from what I've seen during PFT, in the Squadrons and on OJT, I really look forward to working in this environment.  I really enjoyed it.

Max


----------



## FredDaHead

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Frederick.  I never said first year are stupid. If you can quote me on that I'd be pleased to admit it.  Everybody went through 1st year and yes that's a pain in the ***...



I wasn't say you personally said it, it just seems to be an overriding opinion of fourth years that us first years are fuckups.



> Oh and just so you know, I already live off campus.  I "am" in the "big bad world".  If you read the entire post, you could see that no, I don't expect to quit after mandatory service.  But I say that it is an option to be considered!  But as long as the CF are good enough, I'll stay...  I don't even think about end of mandatory service...  I think more about getting through MJ.



My post was about people in general, although I understand why you'd feel I was targetting you. Doesn't it seem like living a year out in the world would be beneficial for everyone?

And, yes, it's an "option" you can't forget about, but I don't think it's a good idea to be thinking about it right off the bat. If you went into battle, would you say "ok, here's the plan for the attack, and HERE is the plan for the retreat. It's really, really important to know how to retreat. So, here's the plan again, just so you know what to do"? (Ok, bad analogy, but I'm the King of Bad Analogies)


----------



## Franko

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> And maybe my dig about a LOT of pilot washouts going Armour officer, and poisoning the Corps (IMO) with that type of mentality (SuperfluousMaxiPad's, that is) was probably lost on everyone, but me.



Not everyone Al..... I know exactly who your talking about    

He hasn't changed a bit either.

Regards


----------



## Strike

Hey all,

Was away for a week.  Looks like I missed alot.

Frederik...





> My post was about people in general,


  It's posts like this (and comments that ALL pilots that I know say this and that) that get people riled up.  The pilots at RMC are a very small number of the total pilots in the CF.  And, gyess what, many of them may never end up becoming pilots.  So, suggest you lay off the generalizations for a bit.

As for everyone leaning on Max, give the kid a break.  I would much rather work with a guy who knows what he wants and makes sure everyone else knows as well, than with someone who says one thing and will turn around and do something completely different.

What we Anglos might see as Max's poor efforts in expressing his humour, any Franco here, or anyone with an intimate knowledge of the culture AND language (having Bs across the board just does not cut it) can understand his difficulties in getting his message across.  If you don't think the french and english humour is different, one just has to ask a Fanco if they like Monty Python.  I'll tell you, I still have a hard time understanding the humour in Ma p'tite vie.

Max, good luck with your training.  Here's hoping you don't have to wait too long to get on your courses.


----------



## aesop081

Strike said:
			
		

> If you don't think the french and english humour is different, one just has to ask a Fanco if they like Monty Python.  I'll tell you, I still have a hard time understanding the humour in Ma p'tite vie.



I'm french.....i like Monty Python  ;D

Ma p'tite vie.....I always thought that was pretty straightforward


----------



## Strike

The majority of my relatives are Franco.  None of them understand MP.


----------

