# CADPAT for CIC



## 2ltairparker

Recently I was on course with fellow CIC officers, like most of our early training we are out in the field and occasionally we have to be scrutinized by the Reg force, while eating in their mess halls, or dining establishments.  A few of my counterparts were wearing the new CADPAT combats and were instructed that they couldn't wear them.   Someone in the dining hall had made some comment regarding why a CIC officer is wearing the combats.    I had to buy my combats at a local surplus store, they don't look all that great, and being the average size that I am, the pickings are mightly slim, so they aren't in the best condidtion.    I think that as an member, CIC, Reserve, or Regforce....we should all be allowed to wear the CADPAT.


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## Burrows

Land CIC Members ARE Entitled to 2x Pants, Combat and 2x Tunic, Combat.  My officers recieved CADPAT when they went to the clothing stores.  

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23398.0.html - CIC Scale of Issue


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## combat_medic

At whose expense? Whose training and equipment budget would cover the cost?


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## Burrows

If you were on a qualification course to become CIC then they might refuse you the right to wear them but as far as I know the Kit is paid for by DND and you are entitled to what is in the link.


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## ctjj.stevenson

Hi!

Seeing that I am a "navy type" I've only worn a CADPAT uniform for one weekend in my life, and that was because I was on my MOC(N) course, and we were permitted to have two sets as a temporary issue. 

As I've stated many times in the past, I understand why CIC officers were not the first to get this uniform ... they had to be introduced to the people that needed them more urgently. However, now that CADPAT are the normal army operational uniform, Army CIC officers should have the right (and they do - at least here in Québec) to get them. CIC officers are CF officers, and are the most visiable representives of the Canadian Forces in most communities in Canada. Therefore, they should wear the Canadian Forces Uniform that is in vogue. 

I beleive that it is unfortunate that members of the Primary Reserves or the Regular Forces then to mock the CIC. Okay, our job is not the same, and we do not have as much training as they do. But even do it is not our primary job to recruit people in the Canadian Forces, we are meant to be an example, and we can help young people that are interested in enroling. 

I know that on the Navy side of the cadet world, we do have Navy League Cadets that exists, and they have officers that are not members of the Canadian Forces. However, they send their free time to work with even younger children. This should be respected, and not insulted (as I know some CIC officers would do towards them). 

In closing, like General Hillard said, the CF is a family. We should respect each other as a good family does, and not spend our time insulting one another because of our jobs. 

Good day!


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## PViddy

> Sorry but CIC Members ARE Entitled to 2x Pants, Combat and 2x Tunic, Combat.  My officers recieved CADPAT when they went to the clothing stores.



Wrong.  Only the Land element is entitled to be issued fatigues as the rules stand now, as that is their work dress uniform.

 Unfortunately it often depends on what ASU supply you draw from as to what you will be issued regardless of elementa; affiliation.  Us air types purchase all of our own CF combat uniforms unless we were lucky enough to be issued them by fluke.


PV


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## Burrows

Ah... Sorry.. Corrected above post.


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## badpup

It is unfortunate for the Air and Sea elements, that CADPAT is not on your kit list. I do believe, that we should follow the example of the Americans, and develop and kit the Air and Sea with Elemental Combats. An aquantaince of mine is an  AME servicing F-15's in Florida, and absolutely loves the fact that the USAF now has an elemental combat uniform. Prior to the new issue, of those sharp looking Blue pattern BDU's he wore standard US Army issue Woodland, before that dress that was similar to our own phased out work dress uniform.

A note to those Air and Sea officers out there, you might well have to purchase them, and may not be entitled to have them issued, but as comissioned officers of the CF you DO have the right to wear them, so long as they are worn complete, and correctly.


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## PViddy

With the new CEMS project (airforce equivalent to clothe the soldier) program being implemented currently; the 3e work dress is, as i understand it, being replaced by the airforce cadpat uniform.  It is my pure speculation that a few years down the road, CIC air may see initial issue of CEMS cadpat as the 3e uniform is somthing we wear currently. rarely but non the less, it's issued.

i can only hope    


PV


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## ctjj.stevenson

As of my knowledge, Aviation CIC officers will be getting their combats A-SAP. Hopefully one day we navy CIC officer might get them because our Naval Combats in the woods does not make any sence (and this is why our FTX is always in civies for everyone). 

If I become a gunnery officer this summer, I will probably have two pairs of CADPAT. I will wait and see. 

Good day!


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## amos933

combat_medic said:
			
		

> At whose expense? Whose training and equipment budget would cover the cost?



First of all, it won't be out of your pocket!!!!!!!!

Secondly, I'm tired of Reservist that think that every dollar spent on cadets is a dollar less spent on the Reserves. Cadet funding is out of a separate pocket, and if for some crazy reason cadets no longer existed that funding would be spent on other national youth programs. Just because the money falls under DND doesn't mean that it will be redistributed to the Reserves or even the Regular Forces for that matter.


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## amos933

Personally I feel the CF as a whole needs to show unity. Everyone should be entitled to the uniform(s) they require to fulfill there job requirements. This would include CADPAT being issued to all three elements of the CIC as Field Training is a mandatory requirement in the CCM.

That being said, there are priorities that must be meet. Kitting of all uniforms and equipment must follow an Operational priority. The Regular Forces are near completion of kitting CADPAT to those members requiring issue. Next step is to kit Reserve members with operational requirements and then so on until such time as the CIC is kitted.


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## badpup

PViddy said:
			
		

> With the new CEMS project (airforce equivalent to clothe the soldier) program being implemented currently; the 3e work dress is, as i understand it, being replaced by the airforce cadpat uniform.  It is my pure speculation that a few years down the road, CIC air may see initial issue of CEMS cadpat as the 3e uniform is somthing we wear currently. rarely but non the less, it's issued.
> 
> i can only hope
> 
> 
> PV



just so long as it doesn't take as long as the Issue of Elemental Uniforms when the CF was de-unified I know I was there   and even my abilities at playing the system in supply did not help at all.


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## combat_medic

amos933: I think you read my question and assumed it was a personal attack against you. You're quite mistaken. If you re-read it, you would see that it was a question that asked, if there was an entitlement for the CIC to wear CADPAT, who would be footing the bill?

A bit quick to jump to the gun for a relatively simple question.

 Everyone should be entitled to the uniform(s) they require to fulfill there (sic) job requirements.

I don't need a shiny new uniform in order to fulfill my job requirements. I was just as able to do my job in olive drab as I am in cadpat.


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## George Wallace

Why is there a requirement for CIC to have CADPAT?  I personally think that they should not.  They are a youth organization, as are the Boy Scouts, the Boys and Girls Clubs, Guides, etc.  What real reason is there for a Youth Organization, even one partially sponsored by DND, to have CADPAT and uniforms like those of Regular and Reserve members?  They have their 'distinct' Cadet Uniforms.  What are the problems with that?  This whole conversation gives me the impression that they are a whole bunch of whining "Wanna Be's" and posers.    Geeesh!


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## Burrows

Well said George.


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## badpup

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why is there a requirement for CIC to have CADPAT?  I personally think that they should not.  They are a youth organization, as are the Boy Scouts, the Boys and Girls Clubs, Guides, etc.  What real reason is there for a Youth Organization, even one partially sponsored by DND, to have CADPAT and uniforms like those of Regular and Reserve members?  They have their 'distinct' Cadet Uniforms.  What are the problems with that?  This whole conversation gives me the impression that they are a whole bunch of whining "Wanna Be's" and posers.    Geeesh!



The cadets are members of that Youth organisation, the CIC are not.
 Like it or not CIC Officers are Officers in the CF and do have a requirement for the elemental work dress which currently for land is CADPAT. I am not saying that CIC should be issued TAC vests ot other operational gear. Taken to the fullest extent why would a pencil pusher at NDHQ, or in a supply office somewhere have a need for CADPAT?


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## PViddy

> They are a youth organization, as are the Boy Scouts, the Boys and Girls Clubs, Guides, etc.



Actually the CIC are the largest corps of Officers in the CF- not a youth org.  read, members of the CF.


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## Da_man

Well they arent really officers... even though we have to salute them, wich i find very stupid.


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## Burrows

2332Piper said:
			
		

> You've got to be kidding me.



I second that.


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## ouyin2000

Da_man said:
			
		

> Well they arent really officers... even though we have to salute them, wich i find very stupid.


and what evidence do you have to support this claim that members of the CIC are not really officers of the Canadian Forces?


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## old medic

PViddy said:
			
		

> Actually the CIC are the largest corps of Officers in the CF



File that under useless trivia.

CIC is a list,  like the SHR and SRR lists.

Other officers are grouped by MOC and not list.


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## ZipperHead

> In closing, like General *Hillard* said, the CF is a family. We should respect each other as a good family does, and not spend our time insulting one another because of our jobs.



Well, if we're a big happy family, you may want to get to know Daddy's name: it's HILLIER. He's only the CDS, you know. The highest rank in the CF. Probably want to get to know it.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's my way.

Al

P.S And my feeling on this issue, to keep this post on topic, is that if there is ONE soldier out there that does not have CADPAT issued, CIC officers (who have their Commision, hence they are "real" officers) should NOT be issued CADPAT. I waited long enough for mine, they can wait for theirs.


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## HollywoodHitman

You got that right Allan. As long as there are members of the reserves out there who havent gotten the current issued kit, they CIC should quit their whining. I was in the Cadet system years ago and it was a fine organisation and as kids we purchased out of our own pockets the VERY well used combats from the local surplus stores. For that matter, so did the CIL officers as they were called at the time. 

CIC officers are NOT officers with the training or education to lead soldiers. Period. They're there to lead and guide the training of the children in their organisations.The exception to this are former Reg/Reserve officers and NCO's who have made the transition. This is not to say that they're babysitters as I'm sure many of you are thinking already. But CIC officers are what you are. Leaders of a youth group who's function is no longer simply to stimulate and develop an interest in the CF. 

I have had cadets come into my unit recruiting office who are members of the cadet corps which wear our cap badge. NO knowledge whatsoever about the Regiment or the jobs of the trades which exist within the unit. 

Anyway, the debate shall continue, but again, as long as there are troopies out there who are on the waiting list for their kit, the Cadet system will have to do what it's always done.........Wait it's turn until the kit starts getting old enough to be sent through the funnel to the kids.


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## Strike

I agree that the CIC should have to wait for their turn for issue.  However I disagree that they should not get CADPAT at all.  Why?  Because John Q Public simply does not know the difference between a CIC officer and a Reg/Res officer and, should they see them walking around in the old olives, the first thing these people will think is that the military is spending all this money on cool helos, trucks, etc, and can't even outfit its troups.  Or, they could think that this officer looks like a slob and can't take the time to exchange his/her kit for the new stuff.  There are any number of scenarios, all of them generally bad.

So, sure CIC should get CADPAT -- after everyone else.  Now, if my supply would just order me some 2 piece nomex flt suits I'd be happy!


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## my72jeep

2332Piper said:
			
		

> You've got to be kidding me.



6600 CIC officers Canada wide. All members of the CF and subject to the Code of Service Discipline.My Commissioning Scroll is signed by the MND and The Gov. General. Now we all know that why would a Commissioned Officer not be entitled to the same basic uniform as every other member? I have Regular and Reserve time but now I work with Cadets I know my Mos is not as an Inf. Leader. Never said it was, but how many Inf. Leaders are Qualified to work with kids on every moon altering drug known to man or yet a kid with AHD or ADD or ants in his pants. (or would want to)


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## COBRA-6

Yes, CIC Officers hold a commission and are members of the CF, but there is a very distinct difference. PRes and Reg F members role is to defend Canada, the CIC's is to train Cadets, bottom line... it's not that CIC officer's job isn't worthwhile, but there is a distinct difference. Having them in CADPAT leads many civilians to believe they are soldiers, which they are not, and I think that's why many object to it.


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## Spring_bok

Just out of curiosity, how many soldiers(fully trained and not recruits or still in training) have not been issued CADPAT?   The Initial issue went to 2 Vandoo in 01 because they were the first BG to deploy with CADPAT.   First line units got it later that year.   We must be at the end of the CADPAT transition by now.  BTW CIC officers wear the same DEU that we do.  Is this an Issue too?


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## my72jeep

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> Yes, CIC Officers hold a commission and are members of the CF, but there is a very distinct difference. PRes and Reg F members role is to defend Canada, the CIC's is to train Cadets, bottom line... it's not that CIC officer's job isn't worthwhile, but there is a distinct difference. Having them in CADPAT leads many civilians to believe they are soldiers, which they are not, and I think that's why many object to it.



Define soldier?


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## Big Foot

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, how many soldiers(fully trained and not recruits or still in training) have not been issued CADPAT?  The Initial issue went to 2 Vandoo in 01 because they were the first BG to deploy with CADPAT.  First line units got it later that year.  We must be at the end of the CADPAT transition by now. BTW CIC officers wear the same DEU that we do. Is this an Issue too?


I'd imagine pretty much everybody has CADPAT now because RMC has now been issued it and it is initial issue at the Mega. That said, I got mine back in December


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## Strike

Okay guys (specifically MikeR23A and my72jeep)

The issue about the CIC being/not being officers is already being discussed on another thread.   Take it there.   This thread is about CADPATs and the CIC.   READ THE SUBJECT!!! :rage:


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## my72jeep

Strike said:
			
		

> Okay guys,
> 
> The issue about the CIC being/not being officers is already being discussed on another thread.   Take it there.   This thread is about CADPATs and the CIC.   READ THE SUBJECT!!! :rage:



Sorry but it all comes down to if we are CF members we are entitled the CF uniform of the day.


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## badpup

Failure of some PRes members to have not recieved CADPAT would likely reside within their own unit supply system or administrative error. As I have read, all members of the Reg force should have at least the basic issue, though some items of other gear such as TAC vests are slow. those items are not on the CIC scale of issue, so are a moot point for this thread


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## COBRA-6

Strike said:
			
		

> Okay guys (specifically MikeR23A and my72jeep)
> 
> The issue about the CIC being/not being officers is already being discussed on another thread.   Take it there.   This thread is about CADPATs and the CIC.   READ THE SUBJECT!!! :rage:



I think my post directly relates to this thread. What I wrote is what I've heard from many Reg F and Pres soldiers over the last few years, there is no logistical reason why CIC can't have CADPAT, there's enough to go around, they object for the reason's I stated. Even though some people might not want to hear it... that mindset may also be the reason some CIC Officers have "trouble" with their local clothing stores (as I've heard the same opinion voiced by bin rats)...




			
				my72jeep said:
			
		

> Define soldier?



A soldier is someone who's job it is to defend their nation (my def anyways..) 

Again I'm not trying to rag on the CIC, I was in Cadets for 5 years and really enjoyed it, and I think it's a great organisation.


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## PViddy

I concur with Mr. Piper

Frankly, i have no problem purchasing "combat clothing" from a surplus store.  Coming from being an Air Cadet 4 years ago; for 7 years, now being enrolled in the CIC, it's what were used to-both Officer and Cadet pers.  The CCM is a fantastic program for youth and just another thing that makes this (Canada) such a beutiful Nation-thus most cadets do not mind purchasing a set of rugged "combats" that would probably do them beter in the filed than Hilfiger jeans.

Here is where my logic sits, i think it would just look beter for the CF as a whole if their was uniformity through out.  Now i consider myself an expert surplus shopper   but somtimes good used stuff is really hard to come by, thus it does the combat uniform no justice at all-walking around base on a field ex.  Now keep in mind, i am not saying cadets be issued CADPAT, maybe they should have their own uniform (similiar to what the army cadet league is doing now i believe) but it would definately help us CIC folks.  This whole paragraph mainly pretaing to my element (Air) since the Army guys already get CADPAT.


In short, wouldn't it just give the CF a better image if everyone was dressed the same and not in outdated OD's ? and by all means! of course the Pres and Reg force should have priority on being kitted out first.  no question.  But from what i understand, their isn't a huge shortage anymore.  Just my take on the stand point of uniformity, interested in what you Ladies and Gentleman think.

and for the record.  my "usless trivia" from previous post...i am right, call it what you will.


cheers

PV


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## badpup

There was until just recently a CADPAT "like" field uniform available for purchase "New" though an American outfit. However this has been currently placed on hold, as there seemed to be some form of problem with customs I believe. 
They are attempting to work with or find a Canadian manufacturer for this Cadet Field dress, however it is not in the works to be an issue item.
I like the idea of a field dress uniform for the cadets, however do not believe that it should be CADPAT, or a similar digital pattern. There should still be a large surplus of the OD in new or near new condition, perhaps this should be utilized as field dress for the cadets.


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## Ltmel

Have people forgotten that the CIC have always had combats(and DEUs and.. garrison dress when it existed)?

We(Army CIC) wear Cadpat because it is our work dress.  Issued after everyone else of course.  I am not aware of any shortages.

Is the argument about the Air and Naval CIC?  Because, the Navy wears Naval combats and (I think, correct me if I am wrong) the air force  is getting issued Cadpat to replace their current work dress. (gotta love that blue embroidery!)

Army CIC are discernable from others (by military pers.) by their slip ons, the Air and Navy are not required to wear CIC slip ons with combats.


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## PViddy

The CEMS project is the Airforce version of clothe the soldier and will be providing Airforce pers with a destinct cadpat uniform, replacing Airforce workdress and integrating with the army the IECS clothing sytem.  I am unsure however, if this will trickle down to the CIC.  My bet is it would make a lot of sense, but it's pure speculation at this point.

cheers

PV


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## Strike

> the air force  is getting issued Cadpat to replace their current work dress. (gotta love that blue embroidery!)



Thank goodness that is going to be changing.


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## PViddy

> Thank goodness that is going to be changing.



Did you mean good ridance of the work dress, or their will be some changes to the blue slip ons/name badges/ poly pro shirts ?

i am all for a bon voyage work dress party!

cheers

PV


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## Inch

Ltmel said:
			
		

> Army CIC are discernable from others (by military pers.) by their slip ons, the Air and Navy are not required to wear CIC slip ons with combats.




That's because with the exception of the TacHel types, no one in the Air Force or Navy wears unit identifying tabs on their slip ons. The only way to distinguish a CIC from the rest of the Air Force types is the cap badge on their headdress.

Strike, I understand your dilemma. You're on an army base and they're loath to issue kit that the army types don't all have even though you're entitled to it because you wear a blue hat. Everyone in Shearwater (including Aircrew) has been issued 3 x pants and shirts, ICE Jackets (heavy weight and intermediate), ICE pants (heavy weight and intermediate), Tilly hat, rain jacket and rain pants. All in CADPAT. The rain jacket is by far my favourite piece of kit, totally Gucci, you guys have them don't you?


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## patt

Inch said:
			
		

> That's because with the exception of the TacHel types, no one in the Air Force or Navy wears unit identifying tabs on their slip ons. The only way to distinguish a CIC from the rest of the Air Force types is the cap badge on their headdress.
> 
> Strike, I understand your dilemma. You're on an army base and they're loath to issue kit that the army types don't all have even though you're entitled to it because you wear a blue hat. Everyone in Shearwater (including Aircrew) has been issued 3 x pants and shirts, ICE Jackets (heavy weight and intermediate), ICE pants (heavy weight and intermediate), Tilly hat, rain jacket and rain pants. All in CADPAT. The rain jacket is by far my favourite piece of kit, totally Gucci, you guys have them don't you?



wow i know alot of Army guys that dont have the CADPAT rain gear yet let alone the new cadpat gortex jackets...


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## dutchie

patty said:
			
		

> wow i know alot of Army guys that dont have the CADPAT rain gear yet let alone the new cadpat gortex jackets...



Tilly hat: yes.
CADPAT Cbts: yes.
CADPAT Jacket/IECS:seen it, but not issued yet.
CADPAT Rain Gear: didn't even know it existed. Of course, what do us West Coasters need rain gear for.


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## Strike

The AF slip ons are going to be like the OD ones except when deployed, where it will be the regular ones that we have now.  At least I won't have people staring at my chest trying to see if they need to salute me or not.

As for the Gortex jackets (the ones with the reflective strips) they are not "officially" part of the aircrew scale of issue, only the techs, although some of us already have them.


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## Nfld Sapper

patty said:
			
		

> wow i know alot of Army guys that dont have the CADPAT rain gear yet let alone the new cadpat gortex jackets...



The CADPAT rain gear was a specific purchase by the Air Force and therefore is not issued to the Army. The only time I ever saw one was on a Sig OP attached to the TAC HEL SQN in Gagetown.

But I hope eventually the Army will get them.

As for the CADPAT Gortex Jacket I believe that they are currently issued while on deployment but I believe that they are in the process of exchanging the OD green ones for those.


Chimo! >


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## badpup

*Note to Air and Naval CIC* Army bin rats will provide nearly anything for you for the cost of a pint or two 
By this I mean treat them as you would your good neigbour, and catch them around lunch time, or near quitting time.
Civvy employees of the DND will rarely give you anything on your scale of issue so bypass them whenever possible.
Get to know the Military bin rats on a person to person level, and you'ld be surprised at what you might find in that "shopping cart"

I used this personal approach for years at Chilliwack Stores, go upstairs, hear NO! from the ladies, go downstairs or over to clothing  hear: "why the Heck not?"
paper gets submitted by the bin rats, or simply gets lost in the system  :


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## Bomber

There is a limited amount of the Rain Suits floating around in the Army.  I know the some of 1 RCR got it, and I think some of the men out west received it as well.  There might be a few sets around that people on bases with air force might stumble on, as the Airforce is almost fully converted to the rain suit.


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## ZipperHead

> Define soldier?



I was thinking of a clever way to answer this, and went to dictionary.com and came up with these:



> 1 One who serves in an army.
> 2 An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer.
> 3 An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization.
> 4  a. *A sexually undeveloped * form of certain ants and termites, having *large heads* and* powerful jaws*.



#4  made me laugh, because if you replace "ants and termites" with "men and women" it is pretty bang on.

I understand the argument that because CADPAT has become the dress of the day, CIC should receive it, and I think the majority of people accept it. I have issues with it, as CIC are members the CF, but there is no requirement for a CIC to have a camouflage uniform, as it is meant for combat. If they call the CIC to go to war, I would imagine that we have hit the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. Not that I've looked too closely, but I haven't seen any Canadian Rangers with CADPAT, and I would be more inclined to see them wearing it than CIC. Here's some info (snipped) from the DND site on their scale of issue:



> What equipment and dress are Canadian Rangers provided?
> 
> The Canadian Ranger uniform is based on the concept that the Rangers, being outdoors people, are well equipped and able to survive in their environment. Rangers are issued only minimal Canadian Forces equipment and clothing. Their uniform consists of a red Ranger sweatshirt, T-shirt, ball cap, brassard, vest and toque.



I think the whole argument about there being very little in the way of OD combats leftover (to issue to CIC) is a pile of steaming hot shite. If we were to assume that every member of the CF had 2 pair before we switched to CADPAT, that would be 160,000 sets (based on a military of 80,000 (60000 Reg, 20000 Res). Plus all the war stock, etc, etc. So, let's say, even at the low end, 100000. Let's say 50% weren't serviceable (but considering I was forced to wear "negligee" combats (see through) for a long time,, I would be inclined to say "tough shit" if that constitutes unservicable), that leaves us at 50000. Hell, lets say only 25% were servicable, that's 25000. Now, with 6600 CIC officers (number given earlier in this thread), we could give them 4 pairs each (some would only get 3, but tough luck to them). Yes, I am forgetting about size issues, but so does the CF, and there are people who get paid big money to think about that, so I think I can be excused, as I am not one of those people. So, there's that issue. Would it be a burden on the supply system? Well, they already exist, so keeping a bunch of pairs on a shelf won't kill them. They stock maternity clothes, and that is for a fairly small segment of the CF (ie service women who are pregnant at any given time), so the old OD combats shouldn't be a problem.

After that exercise in futility, I feel a bit worn out..... Again, the original question has been answered by many, and whether or not we agree means little or nothing (like all decisions made by our hierachy). Personally, I think it's strictly a matter of kit envy, and the fact that it looks "cool". I doubt there was this much hubbub when the lovely camoflage army work dress came out. We were looking for ways NOT to wear it. I will be torqued if I see ONE CIC officer wearing the CADPAT ICE (goretex) jacket before I get mine (the majority of pers in Gagetown haven't received it yet)  :threat: , or again, if their is even one "real" soldier (ie one that goes to the field and gets wet.... not one who "needs" it to wear between their car and their office..... don't get me going on that....) that doesn't get it before a CIC officer.

Al


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## Big Foot

2332Piper said:
			
		

> When recruits on BMQ get issued their CADPAT (and gortex, and poly-pro, and a tac vest, and all the other gucci kit) like I did, I don't think it would kill the supply system to give the CIC folks two sets of CADPAT and a jacket. Its just easier tossing some CADPAT at them as opposed to making and distributing old OD or some other sort of workdress solely for the CIC.


Wow, I wish I got all that crap when I got my initial issue. I got no gucci kit in my initial issue, I still do not have a goretex jacket, won't be getting a tacvest for a long time and I'm not entitled to any gucci kit. All I am entitled to, or got issued at least, is one pair of goretex boots, polypro, and goretex gloves. Sure I don't need the other fancy stuff, but it would be nice to have for summer training. I mean, I wish I could even get a Gerber. Its a lot of fun cutting down a hoochie with your KFS during a bugout. Sure I don't need it, but if new recruits are getting the stuff, why don't I?


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## PViddy

I would be happy with issued OD's! as long as they are issued, better than paying for them.  Allan you have a very valid argurment, but i think ti still goes back to the uniformity issue, and as members of the CF, we represent the image of the CF. 

winter cdapt, you mean the winter whites in cadpat correct ?

cheers

PV


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## my72jeep

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I was thinking of a clever way to answer this, and went to dictionary.com and came up with these:
> 
> #4   made me laugh, because if you replace "ants and termites" with "men and women" it is pretty bang on.
> 
> 
> much hubbub when the lovely camoflage army work dress came out. We were looking for ways NOT to wear it. I will be torqued if I see ONE CIC officer wearing the CADPAT ICE (goretex) jacket before I get mine (the majority of pers in Gagetown haven't received it yet)   :threat: , or again, if their is even one "real" soldier (ie one that goes to the field and gets wet.... not one who "needs" it to wear between their car and their office..... don't get me going on that....) that doesn't get it before a CIC officer.
> 
> Al




I never asked for a Cadpat IECS coat, just said as members of the CF we are entitled to the same basic uniforms.
and thank you for defining solider it supports my point any one who acaccepts the Queens $ is a soldier but not all are combat soldiers.


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## Big Foot

my72jeep, I think it would be prudent to point out that not all members of the CF are entitled to Goretex jackets. For me, my basic combat uniform consists of CADPAT and a combat 4 seasons jacket dating from 1981. If it is deemed that I do not require Goretex to do my training, how is it fair that a less qualified CIC officer receives that kit for doing weekend exercises with cadets? My point here is simple, the basic uniform of the CF does not include a Goretex jacket, therefore the CIC basic uniform should not have it either.


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## my72jeep

I have not said i am entitled to a gortex jacket.I have said " same basic issue".


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## 1feral1

OK, at the end of the day it boils down to this..... As members of the CF(and they are), they are entitled to wear the uniform of Canada, whether if its CADPAT, or DEUs.

End of argument. If you are RegF, PRes, CIC, you all have equal rights for clothing as members of the CF.

Regards,

Wes


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## Inch

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> OK, at the end of the day it boils down to this..... As members of the CF(and they are), they are entitled to wear the uniform of Canada, whether if its CADPAT, or DEUs.
> 
> End of argument. If you are RegF, PRes, CIC, you all have equal rights for clothing as members of the CF.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Wes



I know what you're getting at Wes, but I'm going to disagree. I'm RegF, I'm issued 4 flights suits, does that mean every member of the CF should be issued 4 flight suits? Also, until the Air Force changed to the CADPATs for their work dress, I wasn't entitled to a combat uniform at all. The point is that there are differences between what kit you need which will dictate what you're entitled to. I don't see why a RegF OCdt would still be wearing a 4 season combat coat while CICs that wear combats once or twice a month are be issued IECS.


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## my72jeep

CIC's are not yet entitled to IECS jackets yet. If they have them its by the old boy net, a supply guy who takes timms bribes, e-bay, or like me its an older used version that no one in the reserve unit wanted. but as I,v seen the closer to NDHQ you parade the newer your uniforms are.


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## badpup

That is it on the head Sir, the closer you are to the base the better the clothing or faster you get it. ( They wanted some of our Officers to drive 5 Hours to Chilliwack Stores to pick up thier CADPAT). Eventually mailed but still.....
The Old Boys Network/Timbit bribe is a far faster way to obtain almost anything you need, or want


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## George Wallace

badpup said:
			
		

> That is it on the head Sir, the closer you are to the base the better the clothing or faster you get it. ( They wanted some of our Officers to drive 5 Hours to Chilliwack Stores to pick up thier CADPAT). Eventually mailed but still.....
> The Old Boys Network/Timbit bribe is a far faster way to obtain almost anything you need, or want



I really love the ethics and morality shown by this, and the post that said that "paperwork got lost".   :


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## PViddy

1 out 3 branches are issued cadpat.

PV


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## Duke

CIC officers do not have an operational requirement for Tac Vests or helmets. Nor strictly speaking do we have an *operational* requirement for Cadpat. *The fact is that we are issued Cadpat and we are entitled to wear it*. If the system changes and CIC officers do become a deployable part of the PRes, helmets, tac vests and all the other goodies should be considered for issue, depending on trade etc.   That being said an '82 pattern set of webbing would be nice, but not absolutely required. 
I am quite happy with any and all kit supplied to me by the crown, and anything I *want* in addition to my scale of issue is between me, my wife and my Visa card. And seeing that I am a bit of a kit sl*t, that's saying a lot!

Duke


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## ouyin2000

i have to say that was very well said, Captain

as members of the Canadian Forces Reserve, the Army CIC should be fully entitled to receive the same kit that any other member receives. they should be (and by now are) allowed to wear the basic issue stuff that they will require.

it should be a given that they won't be needing helmets or tac vests or any of the other fancy schmancy stuff that a reg force member on deployment needs, as a CIC officer will most likely not be sent into a potential combat situation. But, IF they were sent into said situation, they should defently be allowed to receive any and all of the required kit for their job description.


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## 1feral1

For Inch:

The right uniform for the right branch of service, and type of work. Maybe a different scale of issue for CIC? Say 2 CADFPAT combat sets, vice 4(?) . Either way personnel do have to be clothed, and one should never let his component of service cloud the issue. Four flt suits for every member is a little outragous.

Cold beers,

Wes


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## Inch

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> For Inch:
> 
> The right uniform for the right branch of service, and type of work. Maybe a different scale of issue for CIC? Say 2 CADFPAT combat sets, vice 4(?) . Either way personnel do have to be clothed, and one should never let his component of service cloud the issue. Four flt suits for every member is a little outragous.
> 
> Cold beers,
> 
> Wes



I agree Wes, my comment was simply to point out that you can't generalize the scale of issue for CICs based on what the rest of the CF gets (this isn't just directed at you but to everyone else posting in this thread too). Pilots have separate scales of issue, as do Infantry Officers and CELE officers and every other trade in the CF. So why wouldn't CICs have a different scale of issue based on what they require? Just because the PRes gets stuff doesn't mean a CIC should get it. 

I agree, 2 sets of combats is all they need, if they're going to be training any longer than a couple weeks, then issue them a third set of combats. Having said that, I was only ever issued 2 sets of combats as a Reserve Armoured Crewman and I also only got 2 sets for BOTC parts one and two. So I'm not going to be convinced that they need 3 sets of anything considering what their job entails.


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## Duke

"What is the 'basic' issue of stuff for the CIC (army)?

I could see something along the lines of 2x CADPAT clothes, 2x combat boots, 1x jacket, 1x toque, 1x tilly hat, gloves, grey socks and poly-pro top and bottoms and 2 x green t-shirts."

I'm not sure what it is now, but back in the day it was only 1 pair of Mk III's. The other stuff sounds about right, except I believe it's 3 sets of CADPAT and the rubber rain gear.

Duke


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## Burrows

There we go... Thread beaten repeatedly.  Closed.  You know the drill... I will add replys that are PM'ed to me.


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## Burrows

Posted by Allan Luomala:

I think this sums up my attitude on this: in the perfect world, we would have enough of what we need. The fact of the matter, is that we are in an imperfect world, with shortages in almost every possible piece of gear there is. As an example, I wasn't even able to get a pair of Mk III's in my size, so I had to get authority to get a pair of Matterhorns via LPO (local purchase order). And at that, I had to use my "charm" to get it (ie. I wouldn't back down when told that I wouldn't get the kit I required).

If we had the money, I think everyone should get the Tac Vest (cadets included). What the hell!!!! But, we don't have the money, so priorities have to be made. So what if CADPAT is the order of the day for land forces. Does that mean, every one has to have everything in CADPAT, or they will be charged?Huh Well, common sense says no. I still see soldiers on this base wearing the "jean jacket" (old combat jacket). They manage to survive. We all did before CADPAT. However, CADPAT is designed for one reason, and looking cool isn't it.

I have to be prepared to go on operations, so that's why I have the Gucci gear. If there is a requirement for a CIC member to have the gear I have, I would love to hear it. Going to the office, and looking like the Reg Force isn't a (valid) reason. If it's so we all look the same, remember how well Unification worked? It didn't. We all look different, for one reason or another. And in this case, the almighty dollar speaks. It takes a long time to get the kit out, and there are precious little in the way of spares (when I first got the CADPAT, the first time I put it in the wash, the seams in 2 of my pants ripped from crotch to below the knees (made by the lowest bidder....) and I had to make do with 1 pair of pants for the duration of Op Grizzly, and I was on the side of a mountain for 10 days with one pair of servicable pants, because they wouldn't exchange the pants as there was no stock). There is even rumour that the guys posted here to CTC Gagetown from the Brigades that have already received their CADPAT goretex may have to turn it in so that they can issue it to soldiers that are deploying overseas that haven't received it yet. The guys here then would either get the older goretex, or maybe even the "jean jacket". You can imagine how happy they would be.

So, even if there are "only" 6600 CIC officers, and let's say 2000 are land element (I would hesitate to say "army"). At the"basic scale" of issue (3 per), that's 6000 pair of CADPAT. That's a shitload of CADPAT that SHOULD be in the system for soldiers going on deployment that would need it (remember my story about Op Grizzly.....). As it is, soldiers on deployment have to make do with less than ideal circumstances. I was issued a pair of goretex rainpants in Bosnia in '97 that were a 44 inch waist. I wear 36. So, they looked good in my barrack box, but served little use.

Yes, you may feel like second class citizens by being told by people like me that you should wear OD and like it, but I know that the powers that be will provide, but at what cost?Huh So that someone can "fit in" with the rest of the CF. Sorry, but my priorities lie elsewhere. And I should hope that the CF's would, as well....

Al


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## Burrows

From badpup:

Let me clarify things before I am "drawn and quartered" by the insolent around here.

When I tell CIC Officers to use the "old Boys Network", and Tim Bit Bribes I really mean:

BE NICE to the bin rats, treat them with the respect they deserve, as theirs is a boring and thankless job within the CF.
Horse trade within corps/units to get what you require, and help others.
Tell others of "Good deals, and ways to obtain what is not provided by DND/Sponsor.

Many of you might think that the DND fully supports Cadets: This is false, Cadets are mainly supported by the sponsor body/Parents group, and by the sweat, and countless unpaid hours of the Officer Staff, Civilian Instructors, and Volunteers. Pay for the Officers, and CI staff is not indicative of the hours that are put in. Volunteers are not paid

By Obtaining anything you want or need I mean, "Consumable" things such as batteries, string, tape, paper, .or empty ammo cans.
No where did I ever say that CIC should get the "Gucci Gear" there is no requirement for those things to operate a Corps/Squadron. What CIC do require as the MOST VISIBLE  members of the CF ... PERIOD... in all areas of this country is adequate and functional uniforms.

As a CIL Officer (predates CIC) I was first issued a uniform that was an embarassment to the service, and expected to wear that garbage? I bought another better one, first from a surplus store, then from base clothing when I could get there, and could afford to do it.
This kind of treatment is unacceptable, as a poor uniform brings discredit on all.Why did I have to purchase it at all?

Paper gets Lost: Read CONSUMABLES, have you never dealt with a base supply section?

Case in Point
A break in at the Corps, many things damaged,Many things stolen, by a prepared team, cutting through steel doors. Damage includes the Ammunition storage locker (Not taken or opened/separate area of building though heavily damaged).
Requesition: New locker/ new security padlocks
DENIED by Civilian  Supply Personelle at Supporting base, NO REQUIREMENT  :
Solution: make a friend at shops, have New/Better locker built to secure DND property (Ammunition)
Cost to taxpayers = $100 < cost to taxpayers if ammunition is lost>  :threat: Insurmountable

My last and major point applies to ALL CIC, REG PRes, Civilians and Cadets:

Treat others with the respect that all deserve, whether they are Miltary or Not, or whether you think they are or not. ;D


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