# Ex Vigilant Guardian



## xander (28 Apr 2006)

Website for the Ex is up http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Exvigilantguardian/


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## jerrythunder (4 May 2006)

Will they be using simunition during the exercise or MILES type gear?


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## civvy3840 (4 May 2006)

In previous years I believe they used simunition. So I would guess it would be simunition again.


P.S. Jerrythunder, I told you I would find it eventually


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## William Webb Ellis (4 May 2006)

What are you kidding me.....all we used to get was a poor copy of a fax which was illegible.....


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## Stirling N6123 (4 May 2006)

I really gottta get back into the reserves. That looks like a good week out.


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## Sh0rtbUs (4 May 2006)

Its a shame i'll be missing this years CAC. Despite quite a few snags, Stalwart Guardian 05 was a blast. A lot of work goes into the annual Exercises, and it shows.


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## Sig_Des (4 May 2006)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> Its a shame i'll be missing this years CAC. Despite quite a few snags, Stalwart Guardian 05 was a blast. A lot of work goes into the annual Exercises, and it shows.



You and me both. It was actually a really good go last year.


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## Lost_Warrior (4 May 2006)

Looks interesting.    Its a real shame us out here in 34th Brigade don't get exercises like that....


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## jerrythunder (5 May 2006)

i take it no one knows for shure yet?


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## Sh0rtbUs (5 May 2006)

jerrythunder said:
			
		

> i take it no one knows for shure yet?



Elaborate?

(sorry, just realised you posted prior about simunition. i wouldnt be surprised if nobody knew until the last few days of prep)


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## Naralis (5 May 2006)

Kinda sad that 34th & 35th brigades budget are in the shitter, we won't have a milcon this year.  :-[


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## Loachman (6 May 2006)

No Simunition.

The budget is considerably lower than previous years, but it should still be a worthwhile ex.

As the guy that planned the aviation support for the three Stalwart Guardians, and is doing so for this one too, I'm gratified that at least a few think that these were good exercises. Yes, an awful lot of effort went into planning and running them.


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## Forgotten_Hero (6 May 2006)

How about MILES gear? in SG05, we didnt get any, and it would have been quite useful...


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## Lost_Warrior (6 May 2006)

> Kinda sad that 34th & 35th brigades budget are in the shitter, we won't have a milcon this year.  Embarrassed



Are you fricken serious????   First Kodiak Strike 3 is cancelled, and now MilCon?    Why is the 34th so FUBAR compared to the other brigades?


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## Lost_Warrior (6 May 2006)

Naralis, which regiment are you with?   Your profile is unfortunately rather empty.


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## Pikache (6 May 2006)

It'll most be interesting to try to integrate new troops fresh from summer training into 3 block war mode... which is something that is not taught in SQ/DP1. (Unless I'm missing some info)


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## Loachman (6 May 2006)

No MILES. You wouldn't believe what the rent on that is.

There is a minimum qualification for troops participating on the ex. I cannot remember what it is, though. I didn't pay attention to that bit as it's irrelevant to my part.


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## Sig_Des (6 May 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> No MILES. You wouldn't believe what the rent on that is.
> 
> There is a minimum qualification for troops participating on the ex. I cannot remember what it is, though. I didn't pay attention to that bit as it's irrelevant to my part.



As far as Communications Reserve Directives, For NCMs, the minimum requirement for field employment is Reserve Basic Military Qualification (BMQ(R)) and Reserve Soldier Qualification (SQ(R)).

Most of these guys will be employed at the HQ & Sigs Sqn as sentries, GD, etc.


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## Forgotten_Hero (6 May 2006)

I heard them say last year that there WOULD be MILES and Sim gear on VG! They cancelled all of that!? God damn. So is this purely a remake of Vigilant Thrust or something? Please, for gods sake, tell me theres going to be OBUA or SOMETHING exciting!


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## Loachman (6 May 2006)

Money is always a limiting factor.

There are other real constraints as well, but a lot of work is going into making this a first-rate ex.


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## Forgotten_Hero (6 May 2006)

I hope so. I'd hate for it to be a repeat of Vigilant Thrust. Aside from OBUA, this whole 3 block war stuff is not nearly as fun as the old cold war doctrine  Gotta be done though... and thats why I hope that on VG they stick to worst case scenarios to prepare us for actually surviving, rather than simply searching a car as fast as possible, or "experiencing" walking through a house taking a glance here and there while the occupants make us tea. 

Please, PLEASE someone tell me theres actually going to be IEDs we have to react to, and high threat levels during the urban patrols... hard targets for cordon and searches, and some OBUA... you know, the kind of situations where our life is in danger and we have to properly handle the situation and learn to survive!


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## Loachman (7 May 2006)

I am reluctant to give away too much, and I am not involved in the detailed planning of the MEL anyway, however your concerns are recognized by the planners. As participation is, of course, voluntary exercises must be interesting and valuable from the troops' point of view or they are not completely successful. That does have its challenges in this summer's scenario.

There are some real-world issues too, like the stand-up of CSOR, a couple of hundred guys gone to one or more TFs, ARC overlapping this year so courses don't have to be compressed, many new guys not being properly qualified to participate etcetera. TF manning and ARC will have a detrimental effect on the availability of critical junior leaders.

The final planning conference (where all planners come together to sort out the big picture stuff) was a couple of months ago so some of my info may well be dated, but nobody then could pin down how many pers would be available to participate even.

There has been a considerable risk taken on all of these exercises - SG and now VG - to provide interesting and valuable training. Not physical risk, as safety is of course hugely important, but in challenging troops and leaders beyond what has previously been expected of reservists and milcons, in fully funding peripheral aspects (like the PAff programme) that added a lot of flavour besides providing useful info to troops and generating media interest, and convincing very senior leadership that it could be done. Three percent of the Army's ammo budget for 2003 was spent on SG that year. I think that I got one box of blanks for my one mag for my first milcon in 1973. Many of us bought our own badly-worn combat clothing (one set) in Novack's in London that year as we were issued black coveralls for the summer course (and ankle boots, WWII heavy ponchos, and two grey blankets to sleep in). Fortunately, we didn't know any better. You guys are spoiled...

New ground has been broken with each SG, and this year's VG is no exception.

I'm not going to shoot my typing fingers off too much more at this point as I'm on the sidelines for a bit until everybody is ready to discuss helicopter support in detail.

It's certainly been fascinating and rewarding (and frustrating at times) to see this process (which occasionally has ressembled sausage-making in its lack of elegance) from the inside and participate in it.

Anyway, y'all are going to have to be patient and wait to see how this all unfolds. There are still tons of details to be worked out over the next few months.

I'll be trapped in Excon HQ, so I'll be relying on reviews here to gauge how successful we were. At least on SG 03 I got out to most of the PZs during the airmobiles and had a chance to chat with some of the troops.


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## Forgotten_Hero (7 May 2006)

Alright, thanks for the input.


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## jerrythunder (7 May 2006)

so if there is no simunition, and no miles gear, are we going to do it the old fashioned way?


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## JBP (7 May 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I am reluctant to give away too much, and I am not involved in the detailed planning of the MEL anyway, however your concerns are recognized by the planners. As participation is, of course, voluntary exercises must be interesting and valuable from the troops' point of view or they are not completely successful. That does have its challenges in this summer's scenario.
> 
> There are some real-world issues too, like the stand-up of CSOR, a couple of hundred guys gone to one or more TFs, ARC overlapping this year so courses don't have to be compressed, many new guys not being properly qualified to participate etcetera. TF manning and ARC will have a detrimental effect on the availability of critical junior leaders.
> 
> ...




Well, I'm using 1 of my 2 weeks vacation in the year from my full-time job so I hope it's at least got good training value even if there isn't SIMunition or MILES gear, really I just want to be able to perform what I'm expected of and get some good training out of this. I'm one of those guys that believes 1 week a night isn't enough and 1 weekend a month isn't quite enough either.... But hey, who am I right?

PS> You Tac Hel guys kick ASS! That was an amazing ride I had on SG 05, you guys sure know how to make some sharp turns in those things!!! I had no idea a helicopter was that manueverable! Can't wait for another spin up!!!

See you all then!


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## civvy3840 (7 May 2006)

jerrythunder said:
			
		

> so if there is no simunition, and no miles gear, are we going to do it the old fashioned way?



Yep that means your getting blanks.


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## Sig_Des (7 May 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Yep that means your getting blanks.



Thank you for that deep-ingrained sudden flash of knowledge  :


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## civvy3840 (7 May 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Thank you for that deep-ingrained sudden flash of knowledge  :



Try reading jerrythunders question, and your welcome. :


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## Sig_Des (7 May 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Try reading jerrythunders question, and your welcome. :



Don't talk down to me, son. Standard Military Exercise practice. You use blanks. Stalwart Guardians of the past which we've been on, and the Vigilant Guardians that are coming up all have blanks. They're multi-million exercises.

How about coming back once you've been on one. Tell you what, maybe in a couple of years we'll see you on VG III, eh?


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## Haggis (7 May 2006)

Play nice, troops.  No sense getting this one locked.  The ex isn't for another 3 1/2 months.



			
				Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> I hope so. I'd hate for it to be a repeat of Vigilant Thrust. Aside from OBUA, this whole 3 block war stuff is not nearly as fun as the old cold war doctrine  Gotta be done though... and thats why I hope that on VG they stick to worst case scenarios to prepare us for actually surviving, rather than simply searching a car as fast as possible, or "experiencing" walking through a house taking a glance here and there while the occupants make us tea.
> 
> Please, PLEASE someone tell me theres actually going to be IEDs we have to react to, and high threat levels during the urban patrols... hard targets for cordon and searches, and some OBUA... you know, the kind of situations where our life is in danger and we have to properly handle the situation and learn to survive!



Having just finished Vigilant Thrust last week, I'd say VG has the potential to be quite slick, even if it is only blank.  The problem with VT (and potentially VG) is that for the ex to work, troops gotta show up!  Having an FSG of 40 odd soldiers, most of whom are Sgts and higher, isn't too productive.  Nor is having major units field platoons of under 20 members.



			
				HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> It'll most be interesting to try to integrate new troops fresh from summer training into 3 block war mode... which is something that is not taught in SQ/DP1. (Unless I'm missing some info)



True.  But also consider that 90% of the "seasoned" troops and leaders have *never* done an FSO op or exercise.   The learning curve will be pretty steep for all ranks. It may not be a physical bag-drive like the last two, but it'll be challenging nonetheless.


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## Adrenaline (7 May 2006)

Wow...that looks like it would be a great ex.  I would love to be apart of that....IF im finished my training by then.  

That site looks pretty slick by the way.  Must be one hell of an operation to put together a site like that.  How many soldiers does this kind of thing draw out? 


-Adrenaline


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## Haggis (7 May 2006)

Adrenaline said:
			
		

> How many soldiers does this kind of thing draw out?



Initial guesstimate would be 2000+.


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## Adrenaline (7 May 2006)

2000+ eh?  Dang.  Guess it would be a popular party.


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## Loachman (8 May 2006)

Thank-you Pte Joe. We do what we can.

They're Griffons, though.

I'm a Kiowa guy, but, unfortunately, we retired those ten years ago. They were much more fun.

We have vacancies...


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## civvy3840 (8 May 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Don't talk down to me, son. Standard Military Exercise practice. You use blanks. Stalwart Guardians of the past which we've been on, and the Vigilant Guardians that are coming up all have blanks. They're multi-million exercises.
> 
> How about coming back once you've been on one. Tell you what, maybe in a couple of years we'll see you on VG III, eh?



hey, didn't mean to offend or start some type of flame war. Actually with any luck I will be on VGIII.


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## SuperTrooper (8 May 2006)

So who is building this "fire base"
and is the arty shooting out of it as I want some sleep!


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## Forgotten_Hero (8 May 2006)

> and is the arty shooting out of it as I want some sleep!



Actually I dont... I want to push myself and force myself to do my job with little sleep. Then I wont come back saying "that was easy"


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## Sig_Des (8 May 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Actually with any luck I will be on VGIII.



Try to get the time off to go on any of the large LFCA MilCons. They're a great experience, and you get a chance to work with people outside your unit. Usually a lot of fun, and nobody'll turn down 2 weeks of pay.

I unfortunately won't be attending, as I'm drifting further away and away from the Res world.


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## civvy3840 (8 May 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Try to get the time off to go on any of the large LFCA MilCons. They're a great experience, and you get a chance to work with people outside your unit. Usually a lot of fun, and nobody'll turn down 2 weeks of pay.
> 
> I unfortunately won't be attending, as I'm drifting further away and away from the Res world.



I am either on BMQ this summer, or next october so I will be on VGIII, hopefully. I think it would be pretty cool to be able to train with other units/brigades. 

By drifting away from the res world do you mean thinking about going regs, or leaving the CF?


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## Sig_Des (8 May 2006)

I'm working full-time class B, and my team is probably headed to Afghanistan in August. Transfer to the Regs comes in a year.


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## Loachman (9 May 2006)

The original intent was to have all three FOBs on the west side of Hwy 17 so that the guns could fire live from within the FOBs to add to the feeling of "being there". Unfortunately, it came down to lack of suitable terrain for all three plus lack of sufficent transport and escort capability to guarantee being able to sustain them all. We were hoping to get Chinooks (I've been at that for the three SGs as well) as they would have been great for that but they're always busy somewhere else. We keep finding Guard units who're interested, and I'm sure that if we can get one up here they'll be hooked, but somebody else on their side of our border keeps finding other things for them to do.


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## Maybee (9 May 2006)

Unless you are some sort of SF guy all concentration exercises are a great opportunity to shake the rust off and get some (simulated) trigger time. If the Iron Talon series that 32 CBG put on are any indication of how well VG06 is going to be...I wouldn't want to miss it. Train to fight, fight to win and all that. We are finally training the way we deploy. And for those of you hoping for 100% adrenaline all the time...on Operations you have to fight boredom and complacency a lot more than any enemy.
Oh and I agree that Rotary Wing is the coolest of all Air Force elements.


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## civvy3840 (9 May 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I'm working full-time class B, and my team is probably headed to Afghanistan in August. Transfer to the Regs comes in a year.



Good luck with your transfer, and of course afghanistan.  

Loachman, I didn't think Canada even had chinooks. Do you mean borrow them from the US?


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## Sig_Des (9 May 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Good luck with your transfer, and of course afghanistan.
> 
> Loachman, I didn't think Canada even had chinooks. Do you mean borrow them from the US?



Yes. We frequently have US National Guard, army and Marine units come up for some Area concentrations. At Stalwart Guardian last year there was an American Chemical Defence Team, and I believe some German soldiers as well.


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## Loachman (10 May 2006)

Yes, sorry, US ARNG Chinooks. Maybe next year.


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## civvy3840 (10 May 2006)

I had no idea that soldiers from other countries were also involved in these exercises. Makes me want to be apart of it even more.

When we borrow the chinooks from the states, do they charge us for things like gas, getting them up here, maintenance, etc? Or do we have some type of deal like, they let us use theirs chinooks and in return they get to train with us?


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## Andyd513 (10 May 2006)

Not sure if any of the other planners read this, but if possible lets try to make the end ex return of vehicles a little less complicated or at least disseminate what is needed at each checkpoint down to the junior leaders.

As a private last year I was stuck in an LS between the mechanic checkpoint who wanted to open my pod to ensure there was no radios before he cleared it and a MP that couldn't let a vehicle that had cleared an outgoing checkpoint back into the training area, all because a mcpl was unaware that they'd need to open the pod.

It was a good go as a sig though, felt like i had a chance to apply my ql3 course and felt pretty real being located under a griphon flightpath at dawn  ;D .


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## dapaterson (10 May 2006)

Civvy3840:

Usually in such exercises everyone pays thier own way.  The US units appreciate having real missions with real troops vice merely flying proficiency checks,; and our guys like fitting more than 6 people into a helicopter (apologies to all the Griffon pilots out there...)


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## Sig_Des (10 May 2006)

Andy_d said:
			
		

> Not sure if any of the other planners read this, but if possible lets try to make the end ex return of vehicles a little less complicated or at least disseminate what is needed at each checkpoint down to the junior leaders.
> 
> As a private last year I was stuck in an LS between the mechanic checkpoint who wanted to open my pod to ensure there was no radios before he cleared it and a MP that couldn't let a vehicle that had cleared an outgoing checkpoint back into the training area, all because a mcpl was unaware that they'd need to open the pod.
> 
> It was a good go as a sig though, felt like i had a chance to apply my ql3 course and felt pretty real being located under a griphon flightpath at dawn  ;D .



Andy D, what unit were you attached to, and what QL3 were you on? This is Des, I was 0503, and attached to 3 ARR


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## civvy3840 (10 May 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Civvy3840:
> 
> Usually in such exercises everyone pays thier own way.  The US units appreciate having real missions with real troops vice merely flying proficiency checks,; and our guys like fitting more than 6 people into a helicopter (apologies to all the Griffon pilots out there...)



I see, thanks for clearing that up.


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## foerestedwarrior (10 May 2006)

My first CAC(2003). There was a German airbone unit attached to the QOR. They did the recce on the FIBUA site for our attack.


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## civvy3840 (10 May 2006)

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> My first CAC(2003). There was a German airbone unit attached to the QOR. They did the recce on the FIBUA site for our attack.



Must have been great to work with them. I'd imagine that you learned lots of things from them and vice versa.

Just out of curiosity, doesn't Canada allow the Germmans to train in the praires?


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## Andyd513 (11 May 2006)

We've met and talked before Des, I was 0502. I remember distinctly running into you and another sig and one of you was wearing a ridiculous cowboy hat on princess st.

I remember ya being on advanced party as well, i was with the svc bn (MMM flying kitchen).

edit: What am I thinking we were also EN force together on another ex, much more recent.


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## Sig_Des (11 May 2006)

Andy_d said:
			
		

> We've met and talked before Des, I was 0502. I remember distinctly running into you and another sig and one of you was wearing a ridiculous cowboy hat on princess st.
> 
> I remember ya being on advanced party as well, i was with the svc bn (MMM flying kitchen).
> 
> edit: What am I thinking we were also EN force together on another ex, much more recent.



Heh...I loved that pimp hat!

Yeah, now I remember you! good times. EN For was kickin'.

What 5's are you one?


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## Andyd513 (11 May 2006)

No 5's for me, I have a co-op in the Mississauga area so I'm having a civilian summer. Trying to get at least a week off to do vigiliant guardian, but thats at the mercy of my co-op employer!

I'm hoping my unit will give me a full summer of employment next summer with the first plq serial and the last ql5 serial.


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## Loachman (11 May 2006)

Support, financial or otherwise, to participating foreign (usually US) troops varies. They have a completely different political and military structure and their budgets for such things are subject to a bunch of factors. Their system, especially the National Guard, still confuses me thoroughly and seems to confuse many of them.

We want them to come and play, so some enticements are necessary. Quality of training is one. Guard units have one weekend per month and two weeks of summer training and that's it, aside from pre-deployment work-ups and taskings. That's very little for an aviation unit, in particular, to maintain currency and competency. They therefore have to squeeze every drop of value that they can from every opportunity. Variety is another - they haven't even seen Pet let alone memorized it like the training area that they go to year after year ("the same old Camp Swampy" as one put it). They get to work and socialize with new people with different backgrounds and that always adds interest. We also have geography on our side: US military helicopters can only fly tactically within the boundaries of military training areas, whereas we have authorized Tactical Low Fly Areas that extend well beyond. The North Tac Low Fly at Pet is all across the Ottawa River, about 5500 sq km of nothing but hills, trees, streams, swamps, and the odd logging trail. No inhabitants to scare or annoy, and excellent contours for nav training. They have nothing like that. The intent is to make it mutually beneficial, however other arrangements may be negotiable.

And the only people who have to apologize to Griffon crews are the ones that bought it.


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## dapaterson (12 May 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> And the only people who have to apologize to Griffon crews are the ones that bought it.


 ;D

The National Guard suffers from a variety of ills, some legislated, others self-inflicted.  For units near the Canadian border it can be very frustrating, as (believe it or not) their processes for cross-border training are worse than ours - and those vary depending on whether they are training for a weekend or for their two weeks in the summer.


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## spr. mackinnon (14 May 2006)

Hey all, was just in Pet. this weekend setting up the FOB's for the ex.  Looks like Vigilant Guardian is going to be a good go this summer.


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## JBP (15 May 2006)

Just came back from "Maple Storm", 31 Brigade year end ex. 

It was suppose to sort of be a "runner-up" to VG06 and give us a good idea what it would be like/some of the ops this summer... Was a very good ex but no sleep, very busy rotating through VCP's, Vital Points and Presence patrols etc... 

One thing I liked is more realism from our enemy force guys this time around, it wasn't just them breaking into sudden section attacks from nowhere when they're suppose to be "half-assed militia from a failed state...". I was even able to practice some emergency first-aid which we hardly EVER IF EVER get to do as a soldier. Good stuff, good all round ex. Much better than some of the weekend ex's I've been on so far.

If it's any indication of what VG06 will be like I hope I do get my time off approved from work!!!


PS> To the planners, please make sure we get WATER, last time we had to ration water like crazy and that was one bitch-ass hot summer!!! All I ask for is water, forget the rations even, just bring lots of water!!!


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## Loachman (17 May 2006)

There was a known and anticipated problem last year with one of the LIBs being on the wrong side of a bridge that was frequently occupied by the enemy, making replenishment difficult. I laid on two missions to sling water out to that LIB (realtime requirement, good training for our crews and the loggies, and a novelty for the thirsty recipients). Both got cancelled by persons, and for reasons, unknown to me, and we were not notified prior. I went out in the backseat of the first hel with Excon G4 (as I'd known her since Phase 2 in 79 and she'd been bugging me for a flight for years and this one was at least relevant to her) to find no jerrycans, full or otherwise. The Svc Bn guys did scramble to find and fill a couple of dozen and we took them out, and then found out about the cancellation afterwards.

This year all of the FOBs are close together, and close to good supply routes, so this problem should not appear.

It will no doubt be replaced by something equally annoying that escaped the planners despite the massive effort and brainpower going into preventing such.

Seriously, there is an amazing amount of talent, experience, and enthusiasm going into the planning (and not just me) - but nobody can foretell every problem.

I await the post-ex comments here...


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## foerestedwarrior (17 May 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> but nobody can foretell every problem.



Is that what you are paid to do though? I though that the officers that make the big bucks know everything....or has my dew years in taught me nothing ;D


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## Loachman (18 May 2006)

Oh yeah?

You know that contract to build LSVWs so many years ago? Same guys got the contract for our crystal balls, soon to appear in CADPAT in a multi-million-dollar upgrade programme.

This is just my hobby, now, as I'm a Happy A-Class Guy With Pension, so I only know everything fourteen days per month.

Which may be why I found out today that we're supposed to call Combat Teams Combat Teams, Battle Groups Battle Groups, and Brigade Groups Brigade Groups again before I even knew that we weren't.

I often think that it's not worthwhile trying to keep up with all of the changes, because if one just waits a little longer...

I use plain language and few abbreviations/TLAs these days, and I ask "What the hell's that and what did it used to be called?" a lot.


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## Forgotten_Hero (18 May 2006)

How does the sleep going to look like? I sincerely hope that there will be a distinct lack of it, so that I and others get used to it and learn to better function without it.


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## jerrythunder (18 May 2006)

yeah, i would also like to see soem lack of sleep for the experience and training. i've heared some crazy stories of people seeing things like purple rabbits and pirates in the bush when they were  doing recce and deprived of sleep :-\


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## Highland Laddie (18 May 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Must have been great to work with them. I'd imagine that you learned lots of things from them and vice versa.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, doesn't Canada allow the Germmans to train in the praires?



The Germans used to train year round at CFB Shilo, MB, similar to what the Brits due in Alberta. The Germans pulled out around 2000 - 2001 if I remember right.

You are right in regards to the cross-training you can get from other country's troops. We had a US National Guard Combined Arms Platoon in our Coy on Ex Charging Bison 06 in Winnipeg, and there was tons of cross-training between the troops. Most of our patrols and ops involved combined CDN & US elements. They learned from us, and we learned from them. The training value of that is priceless.


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## civvy3840 (18 May 2006)

It must be a really good experience to have that opportunity. Makes me want my birthday to come faster so I can get the process under way.

Jerrythunder, my science teacher last semester said that on his BMQ people were putting money into trees because they thought they were pop machines, so I'm sure this summer you will be halucinating more than enough!

On exercises like this one who plays the enemy force? A one of the RCR battalions from the base were it takes place? Or does the OPFOR vary from year to year?


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## foerestedwarrior (18 May 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> It must be a really good experience to have that opportunity. Makes me want my birthday to come faster so I can get the process under way.
> 
> Jerrythunder, my science teacher last semester said that on his BMQ people were putting money into trees because they thought they were pop machines, so I'm sure this summer you will be halucinating more than enough!
> 
> On exercises like this one who plays the enemy force? A one of the RCR battalions from the base were it takes place? Or does the OPFOR vary from year to year?




The last CAC I was on, it was mostly elements of 3 RCR.


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## civvy3840 (18 May 2006)

Just a random question. Why did they change the name of the exercise from Stalwart Guardian, to Vigilant Guardian? Is there some tradition that says you can only use the same name three times? Or do the exercises focus on different types of training? 

A little off topic but forestedwarrior, how is the Grey and Simcoe Foresters with paperwork? My birthday is under a week, however I can't hand in my forms until mid-July/early August, and the next available position for a  BMQ is in october. Just trying to figure out wether or not I should hand them in sooner or later, and I've read the horror stories of units losing people's files, etc...


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## Loachman (19 May 2006)

Stalwart Guardian was a series of three war-fighting exercises. Vigilant Guardian is a series of three stability exercises, with the overall scenario and activities designed to reflect Afghanistan.

New focus, new name.


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## Forgotten_Hero (21 May 2006)

> yeah, i would also like to see soem lack of sleep for the experience and training. i've heared some crazy stories of people seeing things like purple rabbits and pirates in the bush when they were  doing recce and deprived of sleep


 
Indeed. Its lots of fun when everyone's sleep deprived for the first time, they put on their MNVGs and say that theres a batallion of troops approaching their position, because they dont know better. However, most of the hallucination stories like the whole trees/pop machine ones are exaggerations I figure. You're not BMQ qualified yet huh? You'll be missing all the great mosquitos in Petewawa in the end of july, unfortunately...



> Stalwart Guardian was a series of three war-fighting exercises. Vigilant Guardian is a series of three stability exercises, with the overall scenario and activities designed to reflect Afghanistan.
> 
> New focus, new name.



I'll miss Blueland. It was a nice place.


----------



## Love793 (22 May 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Stalwart Guardian was a series of three war-fighting exercises. Vigilant Guardian is a series of three stability exercises, with the overall scenario and activities designed to reflect Afghanistan.
> 
> New focus, new name.



The VG series of exs are based on the CATS scenarios, which resemble Haiti a lot more than Afghanistan.


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## civvy3840 (22 May 2006)

I was just on the VG site, and you know the beginning? Where you can choose flash, or html, and it shows that little video clip. Towards the end of the video clip it says simunition.

Why would they put this in it if they know they're not gonna use it? It doesn't make sense. (Tom me anyway)


----------



## Loachman (23 May 2006)

I just turned around and asked - no, no simunition.


----------



## civvy3840 (23 May 2006)

Sorry, I don't think you understood what I was saying...I wasn't doubting what you said, it just didn't make sense to me to put it on the website if their not gonna use it. If someone didn't know that they weren't going to use it, and saw this they might be led to believe that they are using it this year.


----------



## Loachman (23 May 2006)

I've no idea who looks after the website, but the Area ammo guy sits at my four o'clock for 1.5 metres. Confirming the accuracy of the website was something that I could do easily.


----------



## JBP (16 Jul 2006)

I can't help but get more excited for this ex as time goes by...

Call me a geek, but this is the kinda $hit I joined up for, I'm taking a week's vacation just from work to be able to go on this! People at work are like... "You're doing WWWWHHHAAAATTT with you're vacation!"...

Last CAC I was a newly minted Pte and still wet behind the ears basically, not saying I know much more now, but at least I've played the game once so far and now I can enjoy it a little more. The things I learned last year the hard way I can put to use this year the easy way.

That is I think part of the training value in these excercises also, for Reservists anyway, just actually being deployed and immersed for 10 full days gives me a wealth of training. I can only hope that 1/2 the other Reservists I run into are just as pumped about it also and want to kick some ass! There are enough of them only there for the money who piss and moan about being a soldier... 

Cheers and I wish you all luck!


----------



## career_radio-checker (7 Aug 2006)

R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> I can't help but get more excited for this ex as time goes by...



*Sigh*

Maybe for you but for the signal's world it is a lot different:

Things combat arms have to look forward to and the things Sig Ops have to look forward to in EX VG 06

Combat arms ---- a pretty clear plan of action laid out to you in the EX VG 06 website;
Sig Op ---- absolutely no mention of the Signals branch in the EX VG 06 website.


Combat Arms ---- setting up your own basic accommodations;
Sig Op ---- Setting up the CP, defenses, the ablution tents, mess tents, the officers tent and everyone else’s tent except your own. And then when you get a chance to do your own, you find your kit in the middle of a poison ivy patch. Did I mention Mother Nature took the liberty to pee rain all over it for the past 4 hours? 


Combat Arms --- good leadership under the Sgts and MCpls;
Sig Op --- getting yelled at by a MCpl for not working hard enough while he walks around with a walking stick like a crusty old RSM.


Combat Arms ---- use of the C6, C9, C7, and sometimes C8;
Sig Op ---- issued but never use your C7 riffle. 


Combat Arms ---- Rambo amounts of blanc ammo;
Sig Op ---- one mag of blanc ammo which you will pass off to some infantry guy to expend at the end of the exercise.


Combat Arms ----- sleeping out under the stars with comrades on the hard ground;
Sig Op ---- sleeping out under the stars with comrades on the hard ground because some officer stole your cot.


Combat Arms ---- helicopter rides;
Sig Op ---- watching others get helicopter rides while you're in the CP repeating "radio check" a thousand times.


Combat Arms ---- fighting in both wooded and urban areas;
Sig Op ---- fighting the cursed TCCCS system in both wooded and urban areas.


Combat Arms ---- a "GO! GO! GO!" mentality for 6 days straight;
Sig Op ---- a "Where's my coffee, sig" mentality for 6 days straight.


Combat Arms ---- sleepless nights which ultimately lead to fun stories of hallucination;
Sig Op ---- sleepless nights because some officer stole your cot. The hallucinations are not fun because, in your case, they are real.


Combat Arms ---- hard rations which will sometimes have to be eaten hard because there isn't enough time to cook them;
Sig Op ----- hard rations which were cooked two hours ago. 
Note: because of the shift schedules, Sig Ops are most likely the last ones to eat so always expect to eat Ham Steak and Mustard sauce for Breakfast, Beef Stew for lunch and Salmon for supper. And every time, the condiments will have been stolen from your bag.


I’ve given up on being gung-ho about this ex. There is so much bs and redundancy that takes place at the HQ that any good idea I’ve had (like printing off Reports and Returns before the ex, handing out basic instructions with the radios which I made, revised and more efficient way of setting up modular tents) has been coldly received. So I’ve volunteered to be a Radio Re-Broadcast link somewhere in the woods. It will be just me, a buddy, our truck, and copious amounts of reading material. Let the good times roll. 8)


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## Loachman (7 Aug 2006)

So if being a Sig Op is so much fun, then - why are you one?

Not all Cbt Arms types will get hel rides this year (not that all did any year) - I've only got half as many to play with this year and creative juggling only goes so far.

I've tried to get as many non-Cbt Arms (including the GDs and PRETC who have less fun than you) guys up for famil trips in the past as possible, but still only managed to accommodate a relative handful. Sorry I missed you.


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## portcullisguy (7 Aug 2006)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Just a random question. Why did they change the name of the exercise from Stalwart Guardian, to Vigilant Guardian? Is there some tradition that says you can only use the same name three times? Or do the exercises focus on different types of training?
> 
> A little off topic but forestedwarrior, how is the Grey and Simcoe Foresters with paperwork? My birthday is under a week, however I can't hand in my forms until mid-July/early August, and the next available position for a  BMQ is in october. Just trying to figure out wether or not I should hand them in sooner or later, and I've read the horror stories of units losing people's files, etc...



To expand on what Loachman said, VG06 is the first of three "three-block war" Ex's, and SG05 was the last of three cold-war style ops (with a little OBUA mixed in).  IIRC, in SG03 we played the defenders (the live fire was in a company defensive trench system, I believe), in SG04 we did transitional ops, going from defensive into some offensive... blockings and raids were the soup du jour, and last year's SG05 saw us in offensive ops, with a helo-insertion to a bridge attack, and an attack on a Russian-style trench system.

I must admit, last year was fun, although I had heard horror stories from the silver-backs about 1000m advance to contacts in past CAC's, and was worried about offensive ops on my poor knees.  But it was great, I ended up in the WPNS DET, beasting a C6 (my #2 did an awesome job beasting the tripod and ammo, and yes we brought the tripod everywhere, and thank god).  I had to break in a brand new C6 with blanks, and let me tell you, the C6 is a bit more finicky when it's brand-new, not that blanks ever fired well with the "pig" anyway...

I am getting married this year, and can't go to VG06.  I am way out of shape anyway, after not doing anything remotely army since Feb, as I am on ED&T.  Shame, because VG06 seems to be a lot more relevant to whats happening right now, this moment.

A word to junior leaders and motivated troopies coming off course this summer:  Take this years Ex seriously. You might learn something that could save your life, should you decide to apply for Afghanistan. Even if you don't learn anything new, practice what you know and do your drills right.  We all need to pursue self improvement.


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## Sig_Des (7 Aug 2006)

It all depends....as a Sig Op who was also at SG 05, I enjoyed my time.

Yes a lot of it was Radio shifts in the back of an LS in a CP....Crappy, but it's our job, and one that is of some particular importance, especially in an excersize that large.

But, you get what you put into it. I was attached to 3 Armoured Recce Regt HQ. I could have just worked my shifts, slept, provide some security for the CP on Stand-to for the entire time.

But I made it a point to go the extra mile. I went on patrols. I took part in defensive actions, and I made it a goal to scrounge for the RSM and HQ staff anything I could that they needed. When Sqn HQ's had problems with their rad trucks, I tried to set them up as much as possible, with kit, or with programming.

My reward, I got to do a famil and an insert. I got to take part in some cool patrols. I got take care of. I had an awesome time.

Now VG 06, there isn't much tactical training value as far as Sig Ops, but they still play an important part. Now, if you go out of your way, and show yourself to be switched on, you may get a helo famil. You may get to do some green activities, you may get to do some OBUA. 

Remember, you get what you put into it.


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## Loachman (8 Aug 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Remember, you get what you put into it.


Yup.

We provide the training opportunities. What people do with them is up to them.

I managed to get out quite a bit during SG03, as it was all 100% canned from the Tac Hel point-of-view. My most enjoyable parts were talking to the troops waiting at the PZs for their lifts out or back. They all got the same training and opportunities to use it and while most seemed to be thoroughly enjoying themselves, some in one coy that I "interviewed" thought that it sucked.

I've rarely been able to get out of Excon (except for liaison trips, mainly to 400 Sqn) for the last couple of years as the nature of the ex changed and I was kept more busy with co-ord stuff, getting embedded media types authorized to fly with their companies, VIPs, etcetera. This year Excon/3 MNB HQ's up on base due to lack of manpower to establish and run a tented Excon. We're not thrilled by that as it rather destroys the flavour for us inmates. A certain Sig Op is not the only one unlikely to be doing much fun stuff. Few of us planners and overseers are likely to as well.

The satisfaction comes, instead, from knowing that we put together a decent, fun, challenging, educational exercise that will be raved about for years to come and that almost a year's worth of planning paid off - so enjoy it, dammit, or no helicopter ride for you.

Yes, sitting in a hot box and being abused and under-appreciated all day long is a good chunk of a Sig Op's life but it's still an absolutely vital trade that we couldn't function without .


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## career_radio-checker (8 Aug 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> The satisfaction comes, instead, from knowing that we put together a decent, fun, challenging, educational exercise that will be raved about for years to come and that almost a year's worth of planning paid off - so enjoy it, dammit, or no helicopter ride for you.



It's all about the synical humour, Loachman    Part of the 'hostile' stage in my career.  

But really I've never been a RRB before so I will be getting a learning experience out of it. Hopefully it provides the perfect oportunity to do the thing I like most -- problem solving. I love it when the presure is on you to get the comms fixed so that the Brigade CO can get the battle moving again.  Any nube can sit on the radio, but a real sig-op can be the 'Scotty' of Comms failure who gets the ship back to full power for the Captain. It's a rare occurance but when it happens gawd it's a good feeling. I know that's the same kind of satisfaction you must get when you put all your time and effort into planning the EX so from me to you -- Thanks for making it an ex we can look forward to throughout the year.

That said, it would be nice to have the Sigs sync-matrix or Org-chart added to the website.


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## George Wallace (8 Aug 2006)

So?

Who is going?           What is your Position, Role or Job?


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## Thompson_JM (8 Aug 2006)

My only Concern, (apart from being slightly bitter that im going to Pet, only to come home and then return 10 days later to start pre deployment.. but i'll get over that....) is that there is only a small number of CSS Transport types who seem to be going from my Bde. almost none from my unit. so my concern is that we are going to get severly overtasked and wont get any kind of real training out of it, other then how to drive an HLVW when you havent slept for 5 days....... but thats simply a concern.... I still plan to go up with a positive attitude and hope to make the best of it... hey, im sure there will be something fun there.... and if not... well, i'll just have to make it fun somehow..... like Des said, you get what you give.

and to answer george:

Im going and am Tasked as a Heavy lift Driver either with the NSE or with the 31 Bde FOB


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## Loachman (9 Aug 2006)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> It's all about the synical humour, Loachman    Part of the 'hostile' stage in my career.


And I thought that you were just whinging - damned lack of tone on this means...

The problem for you and other support types is that you're essential for running the ex just by doing your regular jobs. I don't really see how you guys can be put into your own chunk of the synch matrix, especially when there's a shortage of you. Otherwise, it's as Sig_Des says - weasel your way into other people's games.

If you can see someway to be creative and convince your bosses perhaps something can be done but there's got to be enough of you to Operate Sigs while the others are prancing about in the brambles as well.

We have lifted RRBs out in previous years and that's a mission that I like to do when possible. It's not a huge novelty for us but it is different enough to make it a little more interesting, plus it gets people thinking creatively, and it provides avn support and interest to those who would not normally get it.

There's lots that we can do for almost everybody, given the resources. I'd really like to do more for the gunners, as well. We've done gun position recces, moved small parties, slung ammo plus done mortar battery moves in past years (can't this time, though, unfortunately) but that's nowhere near what I'd like to achieve. I've been trying to get CH47s and UH60s up here since the first SG to move C3s but they keep getting pulled away to go to war a couple of months before the ex. We did one slung load for the loggies last year but that turned out to be a bit of a farce for a number of reasons. I'd really like to be able to expand on that someday.

The busiest and fastest two weeks of my life ever was On Guard 90 - that year's Milcon. I had 5 Canadian Chinooks, 6 Twin Hueys, 6 NYARNG single Hueys, and a buttload of Kiowas and it was marvellous. We moved whole companies out to Beachburg and Arnpriorin one lift and all sorts of other neat stuff. I'd love to be able to do that again.


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## career_radio-checker (9 Aug 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> We have lifted RRBs out in previous years and that's a mission that I like to do when possible. It's not a huge novelty for us but it is different enough to make it a little more interesting, plus it gets people thinking creatively, and it provides avn support and interest to those who would not normally get it.



well if your open to ideas... how about a water rescue?
 or a Griffin chase? I was in Wainwright as OPFOR and the Griffins chased us in the vehicles. Insertions are nothing new of course but how about on a moving target? 
Hopefully I can think of more.


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## Spanky (9 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?
> 
> Who is going?           What is your Position, Role or Job?


Troop Warrant for one of the recce troops......... again


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## Sharpey (9 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?
> 
> Who is going?           What is your Position, Role or Job?



As it stands now, E Patrol Commander, 2 Troop, B Coy.


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## Haggis (9 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Who is going?           What is your Position, Role or Job?



CSM India Coy, TF 33-06

(c/s 39er Charlie yet again.  Good thing I never throw out my cheat sheets ;D)


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## Canadian.Trucker (9 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?
> 
> Who is going?           What is your Position, Role or Job?



Pick me *sticks up hand*  Platoon Commander F Coy 8 Pl.


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## JBP (10 Aug 2006)

Well I would have been a rifleman... In some unit of 31 Brigade...

Unfortunately, as many of you probably seen I was very excited to go on this excercise this year, but I won't be able to attend now as my mother has become very ill and might not be around too long. She's currently in the hospital. As much as I would love to forget it all and run away to that excercise for the time being, I have to be with her for now...

So to those attending - Have a BLAST! Seriously, live it up, enjoy, see you next year!

Joe


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## The_Falcon (10 Aug 2006)

Staying home, new job, and won't be allowed time off for another 3 months. That and I wasn't particularly thrilled about being in a CQ Storeman/driver role again, even if I had managed time off.


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## Spanky (10 Aug 2006)

R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> Well I would have been a rifleman... In some unit of 31 Brigade...
> 
> Unfortunately, as many of you probably seen I was very excited to go on this excercise this year, but I won't be able to attend now as my mother has become very ill and might not be around too long. She's currently in the hospital. As much as I would love to forget it all and run away to that excercise for the time being, I have to be with her for now...
> 
> ...


Joe, sorry to hear about your mother.  Been there, done that, sucks very huge.


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## foerestedwarrior (10 Aug 2006)

Just got confirmation from my boss, I am good to go. So I have no idea what I will be doing, but I should be there.


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## Canadian.Trucker (10 Aug 2006)

Proud Forester said:
			
		

> Just got confirmation from my boss, I am good to go. So I have no idea what I will be doing, but I should be there.



Good to hear, I think perhaps a Sect 2I/C, but we'll see.


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## Poppa (11 Aug 2006)

TF 33/06 Provost Marshall


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## Sig_Des (11 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> TF 33/06 Provost Marshall



Well then, seeing as I won't be there, I won't give you any reason to "detain" me  ;D


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## career_radio-checker (11 Aug 2006)

I got word from the Sarge today on how Sigs are going down. I won't give specifics due to COMSEC protocols even though it's only for an exercise. Suffice to say that I am finally glad to know what we can expect and that this year shall present a great challenge to us Sigs. Gi-gady gi-gady goo, Alright.  8)


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## foerestedwarrior (11 Aug 2006)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Good to hear, I think perhaps a Sect 2I/C, but we'll see.



Sounds cool. I would appreciate the leadership experiance. Either way though, I am just out to have some fun, and get back into the saddle. I have spent the last 2 years in the Trg Coy teaching the new recruits to the unit, so I have been away from the combat part of the cbt arms for a while.


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## Canadian Sig (11 Aug 2006)

Supporting again this year as an RRB. Maybe I can do the helo insert RRB this year instead of sending all my guys out to do the fun stuff.


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## doomwolf (11 Aug 2006)

At this moment, I am tasked out to 33 CBG HQ, as I am qualified RMS part 1. HOWEVER, rumor has it (and my course finnishes today at 33 brigade HQ in Ottawa) that the junior clerks (ie, me) will do inclearance, be sent back to the unit, and come back for outclearance. I'm crossing my fingers that this is A) true and B) I can spend some time in a rifle section.

Clerk by trade, infantry at heart.


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## Poppa (11 Aug 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Well then, seeing as I won't be there, I won't give you any reason to "detain" me  ;D



I'm sure I could track you down and pin something on you. >


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## SuperFry (11 Aug 2006)

I'm going, although my chain of command still needs to pass on some information and confirm who in fact is going.  Until then, I have no idea if I'll be with a unit in the field or in an amb or doing some GD duty.  We'll see.  This is my first ex and I've just finished QL3 and SQ so I'm excited to put some skills to work....especially the packing kit tips from the Sgt on SQ


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## Sig_Des (11 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> I'm sure I could track you down and pin something on you. >



Be sure to get some desert cammies if you're planning on that


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## Poppa (11 Aug 2006)

Workin on it...believe me I'm workin on it


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## portcullisguy (14 Aug 2006)

Have dessie name tags and dessie boots (2 pr) that I'm not allowed to wear!  Yay!

If they think they are getting them back, they are sadly mistaken!


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## DG-41 (14 Aug 2006)

2 Tp Ldr, D Sqn, TF 31-06

We're doing the heli insert again this year - but this year I note that the sync matrix specifically states insertion AND EXTRACTION....

Hope springs eternal.

DG


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## career_radio-checker (14 Aug 2006)

From last year's experience, if any of you have any say over your unit's stores, might I strongly advise you bring vixen masts for the radios, if you got them.


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## Sig_Des (15 Aug 2006)

RecceDG said:
			
		

> We're doing the heli insert again this year - but this year I note that the sync matrix specifically states insertion AND EXTRACTION....



I remember that from last year. Helo's grounded at the 3 ARR camp. And a "helo" insertion done out the back of MLs


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## Loachman (15 Aug 2006)

Canadian Sig said:
			
		

> Supporting again this year as an RRB. Maybe I can do the helo insert RRB this year instead of sending all my guys out to do the fun stuff.


Having half the resources compared to previous years, unfortunately this is not too likely. We're pretty maxed out with the Infantry stuff.


----------



## Loachman (15 Aug 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I remember that from last year. Helo's grounded at the 3 ARR camp. And a "helo" insertion done out the back of MLs


Suspected fuel contamination during load/unload drills at one coy location, and another coy moved to that location to get theirs in while our guys were stuck. Neither got their quickie circuits in as far as I remember, and it did cost us one minor mission (obviously not minor to you) but all in all we did okay - no major breakages and no severe weather problems.

Everybody should be doing their Helicopter Happy Dances and hoping for a repeat.


----------



## Blunt Object (28 Aug 2006)

Doesanyone know of a site where I canfind some Pictures ormaybe videos of the Ex? I saw a lot of people with cameras there and a ton of media so I was hoping the put something together for us to look at. 

   Cheers


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2006)

Blunt Object said:
			
		

> Doesanyone know of a site where I canfind some Pictures ormaybe videos of the Ex? I saw a lot of people with cameras there and a ton of media so I was hoping the put something together for us to look at.
> 
> Cheers



Your user name must relate to what you use to type on the keyboard ;D


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## Loachman (28 Aug 2006)

The official website is http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Exvigilantguardian/ but no photos have been posted yet and I don't know if any will be. They were in previous years, but the PAff cell was reduced this year.


----------



## Haggis (28 Aug 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> The official website is http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Exvigilantguardian/ but no photos have been posted yet and I don't know if any will be. They were in previous years, but the PAff cell was reduced this year.



There was a boatload of embedded "journalists" on VG-06, many coming from the Ryerson journalism program.  The three in my company were really keen.


----------



## Echo9 (28 Aug 2006)

So, what's the consensus on this one?  Did it work?  Good training?


----------



## DG-41 (28 Aug 2006)

Aside from the sudden downpour on Sunday AM that caught my guys in the middle of helicopter loading/unloading practise and soaked us to the skin, overall, it was a great ex.

Thursday, I had as good a day on the trace as I've ever had. 

Good training, everybody learned a lot, and the cock was minimal.

DG


----------



## Loachman (28 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> There was a boatload of embedded "journalists" on VG-06, many coming from the Ryerson journalism program.  The three in my company were really keen.


They were hired as role-players to make your war more realistic.

There were also plenty of real media types. What coverage I saw from them was very good - A Channel had a three-parter.

That aspect did not change, but there were no slick motivational movie, ads, or ENN (Exercise News Network) "broadcasts" this year.


----------



## Haggis (28 Aug 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> They were hired as role-players to make your war more realistic.



I know that.  I was not part of the PTA (Primary Training Audience for the unaware) so they made no attempt to disguise their true roles.  I gave my digital camera to one of them during the Cordon and Search and he was able to get some outstanding photos of the action (and give me some photography tips afterwards).

It wasn't "my" war.  We were just there to make West Isle a safe place to live.


----------



## Loachman (29 Aug 2006)

Had I checked your profile first, I'd have surmised what your role was...

And I'm sure that the West Islanders appreciated your efforts, and want us all back next year.

So, lacking much comment from members of the PTA (it took months of careful planning to ensure that Recce DG's company got their load/unload drills during the downpour), what did your troops think?


----------



## Haggis (29 Aug 2006)

Personally I enjoyed just being away from NDHQ for 10 days.

I think the soldiers generally found it to be a good ex.  Our FOB was well laid out and contributed to the effectiveness of the training.  The OPFOR (of which my son was a member against 32 CBG) was well briefed and used.

Being able to observe the training from a "detached" perspective and having feedback from my OPFOR kin, I noted that the learning curve was rather steep for anyone without recent operational experience.  Some examples:

1. Presence patrols often made efforts to avoid being detected (i.e. diving into the ditch when vehicles approached, not using white light etc.) as junior leaders still equated patrolling with stealth.

2. Soldiers need to shake the impression that if you're not "one of us", you're enemy.  Not everyone is a bad guy.  Many people were shot who didn't need to be.

3.  Some leaders have difficulty integrating the all-arms team as well as entities like CivPol.

4.  Comms sucked.  Need more freqs and many, many more radios.  PRRs should be used on training like this as a supplement to TCCCS.

5. The "Hot wash" was three hours of my life that I will never see again.

6. No TTPs or SOP existed for Force Protection (camp security).  My TF Sgts-Maj got together at the outset and wrote them on the fly, adding to and amending them after each evolution.

7.  Our TF sought out those with "real-world" experience to offer advice within the sub-units.  Not all sub-units were so blessed, but the experience was shared nonetheless.

West Isle is a beautiful country.  I look forward to helping the citizens prosper again next year.


----------



## Poppa (29 Aug 2006)

It all depends on what TF you were part of and whether or not you were part of the PTA. For example we had about a sections worth of U.S. MPs with us. I had the extra fortune of having their command element with me. Over half of them had just returned from 18 months in Iraq. I can read all the AARs in the world but this was priceless. I hope some of the other arms were able to benifit as well.
We ust have to work a few of the wrinkles out and it will only get better.
As Haggis pointed out...comms sucked. I know that as a jr Officer I should love not being in contact with my higher HQ...but funnily enough it was a pain in the ass.

Cheers


----------



## Haggis (29 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> For example we had about a sections worth of U.S. MPs with us. I had the extra fortune of having their command element with me. Over half of them had just returned from 18 months in Iraq. I can read all the AARs in the world but this was priceless.



I know of whom you speak and they were indeed priceless (especially the sgt who came to our "Fight Night").  We used them and were the better for it, IMO.  The Cdn MPs were also quite keen and provided value added to the training.


----------



## Poppa (29 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I know of whom you speak and they were indeed priceless (especially the sgt who came to our "Fight Night").  We used them and were the better for it, IMO.  The Cdn MPs were also quite keen and provided value added to the training.



Thanks for that...hopefully we can carry on the combined trg throughout the year.

Cheers


----------



## Sig_Des (29 Aug 2006)

One of the best training excersizes I've been on was the qualifying field ex for my QL5's at CFSCE. They've moved to a total force training concept, and it's very operationaly-minded.

As in we would go out, set up our Main Camp (Cataraquay arena) and move out to several sites in the city and set up FOBs. The OPFOR was excellent. many different scenarios.

Refugees at the gates, protesters, IEDs, Ethnic violence. In one situation, the OPFOR made such a real showing of "beating" a female member, and her screams were so realistic, that a couple of my guys thought it was real, and ran out to go help.

It's this kind of training that's going to prepare people for things they may encounter in theatre.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Aug 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> One of the best training excersizes I've been on was the qualifying field ex for my QL5's at CFSCE. They've moved to a total force training concept, and it's very operationaly-minded..........................................................It's this kind of training that's going to prepare people for things they may encounter in theatre.



The thread is called *Re: Ex Vigilant Guardian*, not 'What Was Your Best Ex Ever'


----------



## Sig_Des (29 Aug 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The thread is called *Re: Ex Vigilant Guardian*, not 'What Was Your Best Ex Ever'



Well, most people would be able to draw the comparison. As mentioned by Haggis and Poppa, the training goals have changed in training throughout, IE to more operational settings.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Aug 2006)

We know that, but the thread is still about VG only. We're trying to get feedback on that one in particular. Not muddy the waters with reminiscences of others.


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## Spanky (29 Aug 2006)

VG 06 was a good excercise.  
TF 31's FOB was well done.  A LOT of work sure went into setting it up.  As a vet of the Cold War, it was weird not having to worry about light and noise discipline etc while in the FOB.  Completing a task and "being home for supper" was different as well.

As a recce troop we were inserted by air in order to establish OPs on the FIBUA site and conduct a handover to the infantry.  That was a good go...... despite the rain as mentioned by DG.  Well done to the chopper guys.

The Convoy escort went well (at least on the second kick of the cat) but we encountered only one minor MEL event, leaving us a little frustrated.

Our last task, on Friday, was a good one as well.  We secured an LZ, and established an outer cordon for the infantry.

The troops enjoyed it and learned a lot from it.

Well done to the movers and shakers who got this ex up and running.


----------



## Blunt Object (30 Aug 2006)

How well do you guys think the ROEs were?


----------



## George Wallace (30 Aug 2006)

Blunt Object said:
			
		

> How well do you guys think the ROEs were?



Now you are opening a 'Can of Worms'.  The ROEs were not thought out well and not published correctly, having to be corrected midway through the Ex.  The 'Question' should be "Were the final version of the ROEs effective and easy for the troops to understand and enforce?"


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## Haggis (30 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> "Were the final version of the ROEs effective and easy for the troops to understand and enforce?"



There was a "final version"???

I refer you back to my remark that "comms sucked".  Clearly so did the verbal/formal passage of information.

The ROE card described the ROE in simple terms but was otherwise a nice, colourful piece of substantially irrelevant paper.  My company did ROE scenario training in order to get a firm grasp on the practical application of the ROE.


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## Poppa (30 Aug 2006)

I think the ROE's were adequate..however, for this ex I don't think a lot of time was spent on them from the leadership end. We need something written that doesn't sound like a law text. Use "soldier speak". I'm not saying talk down to the troops but KISS is around for a reason. More trg through out the year is needed, should be no excuse now that we have the latest and greatest ROE that came down the 2nd last day of the ex.
I'd be more concerned if we didn't get some sort of SOP together for....I don't know....QRF duties just off the top of my head.(just an example folks)
Cheers


----------



## Haggis (30 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> I'd be more concerned if we didn't get some sort of SOP together for....I don't know....QRF duties just off the top of my head.(just an example folks)
> Cheers



Force protection is a topic near and dear to my heart.  QRF fell under the "Camp Security" company.  No TTPs or SOPs existed in either TF 32 or 33 for force protection. They were, as I stated earlier, written "on the fly".  In TF 33 there was considerable confusion over who could launch the QRF, why and when.  This will eventually be included in the TTPs/SOPs promulgated by the three Inf CSMs in TF 33.

On the upside, the Armd Recce guys were invaluable as force multipliers for my company.  Thier detailed objective recce report was extremely thorough, allowing us to know exactly how many shooters were in the FIBUA site and their locations, just minutes before we launched.  Thanks guys!


----------



## Andyd513 (30 Aug 2006)

My first griphon experience on VG06. Famil flight was awesome... hope next year the scope of the exercise allows for more signals involvement. Got to go out on RRB which is always fun. probably be back next year unless i get a really late ql5's.


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2006)

I think that one fault that showed up, was in the RAIDs.  The troops have to be taught who will and how to search prisoners.  The 'passage' of prisoners has to be taught also.  I had a subordinate loose a pistol in an incorrect scenario.  She should not have been searching prisoners at that stage, nor should she have been armed in that case if she was.  It is something that all troops should be taught the very basics in, as it could have the opportunity of turning very deadly if they don't know how.


----------



## Haggis (30 Aug 2006)

A very good point, George.

The Force on Force directive came out about three days into the ex and it was quite restrictive.  I don't neccesarily believe that hampered our ability to conduct proper searches on the OPFOR but it was always in the backs of the soldier's minds.

One of the points in the Directive was that no one was to be "restrained" (i.e. zap strapped/flexicuffed/handcuffed or sandbagged).  During the Hot Wash (VG Awards Show??), some media clips from Ottawa's "A" Channel were shown.  In one clip, an OPFOR soldier is seen zap strapped and bagged.  The Comd LFCA/JTFC was sitting front row centre for that clip. ;D


----------



## Loachman (30 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> 1. Presence patrols often made efforts to avoid being detected (i.e. diving into the ditch when vehicles approached, not using white light etc.) as junior leaders still equated patrolling with stealth.
> 
> 2. Soldiers need to shake the impression that if you're not "one of us", you're enemy.  Not everyone is a bad guy.  Many people were shot who didn't need to be.
> 
> ...



This is pretty much as briefed at the Comd's nightly brief by the OPFOR guy, plus a few other things, and it's been noted. I'd be really surprised if corrections were not made by next year. Radios are still likely to be problem though.


----------



## Loachman (30 Aug 2006)

Spanky said:
			
		

> VG 06 was a good excercise.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...



As the aviation guy on the planning team this is gratifying to hear.



> As a recce troop we were inserted by air in order to establish OPs on the FIBUA site and conduct a handover to the infantry.  That was a good go...... despite the rain as mentioned by DG.  Well done to the chopper guys.



Our crews got some good flying in and some useful lessons were re-learned (we don't get much chance to do this stuff either, these days).


----------



## Loachman (30 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The ROE card described the ROE in simple terms but was otherwise a nice, colourful piece of substantially irrelevant paper.  My company did ROE scenario training in order to get a firm grasp on the practical application of the ROE.



This too was recognized at the top and will be fixed.


----------



## Loachman (30 Aug 2006)

Andy_d said:
			
		

> My first griphon experience on VG06. Famil flight was awesome... hope next year the scope of the exercise allows for more signals involvement. Got to go out on RRB which is always fun. probably be back next year unless i get a really late ql5's.


Where were you working?

We inserted a number of RRBs last year, which I consider to be a very worthwhile thing from the sigs' viewpoint (obviously), ours (as it's a little bit of variety and we get to play with others), and the supported  unit(s) benefit as well. Unfortunately, we only had four machines this year instead of eight to ten last year, and started with a couple of extra crews but were down to just four by the end. That made for some long and hectic days for them.


----------



## Loachman (30 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> During the Hot Wash (VG Awards Show??), some media clips from Ottawa's "A" Channel were shown.  In one clip, an OPFOR soldier is seen zap strapped and bagged.  The Comd LFCA/JTFC was sitting front row centre for that clip. ;D



He'd already seen it a couple of nights before at his nightly briefing - and, yes, comments were made by several people present.


----------



## Haggis (31 Aug 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> He'd already seen it a couple of nights before at his nightly briefing - and, yes, comments were made by several people present.



I suspected as much since no comment was made in the Hot Wash.  However the clip that got the biggest laugh was when the reporter noted that we become invisible when we take off the red and white flags.  I've tried it.  It doesn't work.  (I curse Clothe The Soldier.  They lied to us AGAIN!!)

Even though my company's lift lasted all of about 4 minutes, it was seriously cool to have your guys flying overhead of my road party on the CSO insertion and extraction.  Both elements (road and air) remarked positively on it.  Lots of LCF.


----------



## jerrythunder (31 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think that one fault that showed up, was in the RAIDs.  The troops have to be taught who will and how to search prisoners.  The 'passage' of prisoners has to be taught also.  I had a subordinate loose a pistol in an incorrect scenario.  She should not have been searching prisoners at that stage, nor should she have been armed in that case if she was.  It is something that all troops should be taught the very basics in, as it could have the opportunity of turning very deadly if they don't know how.



i also agree, having been one of the OPFOR riflemen i found that most soldiers didnt properly search the pockets and bodies of the dead or captured and ended up losing some vital intelegence that was planted on those bodies


----------



## Loachman (31 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> However the clip that got the biggest laugh was when the reporter noted that we become invisible when we take off the red and white flags.


Yes. The bright exercise unit patch worn below it, and left on, was clearly invisible to enemy eyes as well. They operate on a slightly different wavelength to friendly eyes after all. This is why we could see the huge cam net that they used to drag over the control tower in Lahr when I was stationed there, turning it into a huge, fuzzy green rectangle, but low-flying SU-24 pilots couldn't.



> Even though my company's lift lasted all of about 4 minutes, it was seriously cool to have your guys flying overhead of my road party on the CSO insertion and extraction.  Both elements (road and air) remarked positively on it.  Lots of LCF.



I like to give longer rides, but we are now constrained due to airspace co-ordination. We had 2 RCHA mini-UAVs operating over the North Mattawa for most of the week, plus exercise live Arty and D Bty 2 RCHA with M777s as well. This kept the two-person ASCC next to me in the HQ pretty busy making sure that there were no conflicts between hels, shells, and fancy model aeroplanes. LZs and gun positions have very similar characteristics, and suitable areas are at a premium in the training area. I was worried that the ASCC people were going to be bored, but they got good training out of this, as did our guys (again, we only see this aspect once annually), and nobody hit anything that they shouldn't have. We had an Airspace Co-ordination Centre last year, for the first time, and it proved its worth even though it took a while for our guys to understand how the process works. ASCC folks are my newest favourite people.


----------



## Poppa (31 Aug 2006)

jerrythunder said:
			
		

> i also agree, having been one of the OPFOR riflemen i found that most soldiers didnt properly search the pockets and bodies of the dead or captured and ended up losing some vital intelegence that was planted on those bodies



It was passed down that when searching we were limited to certain areas only i.e. the torso and that if the bad guys..oops the OPFOR had any int on them they were supposed to had them over. Now just to be clear I'm a big fan of train as we fight and this force on force rule hampered that. Now just so those nasty OPFOR don't get too big a swelled head, we would have got the big stuff off you on site like your wpns etc...a more detailed search at the collecting point where we would hav found the docs...and last moving further down the chain we'd strip you down to your embarassed grin.


----------



## Haggis (31 Aug 2006)

jerrythunder said:
			
		

> I also agree, having been one of the OPFOR riflemen I found that most soldiers didnt properly search the pockets and bodies of the dead or captured and ended up losing some vital intelligence that was planted on those bodies.



As Poppa said, restrictions were placed on how we could search. If your docs were in one of thise "allowed" pockets, we should've found them.  A training point for next year.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Yes. The bright exercise unit patch worn below it, and left on, was clearly invisible to enemy eyes as well.



Some TF 33 soldier remarked that their patch bore the same colours as the US Army Ranger tab.  Amusing enough when you think that their CSO plan bore a striking resemblance to the movie "Blackhawk Down" and we had an embedded reporter named "Irene" with us.

I think the fact that this is a slow moving thread speaks volumes about the exercise being a "good go" generally.  Nobody is whining!


----------



## Loachman (31 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I think the fact that this is a slow moving thread speaks volumes about the exercise being a "good go" generally.  Nobody is whining!



That was my guess - they can't all still be cleaning their kit and catching up on sleep.


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## PteGDD (31 Aug 2006)

I've never slept so much in the army as I did on VG.  BEST EX EVER.


----------



## Andyd513 (31 Aug 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Where were you working?
> 
> We inserted a number of RRBs last year, which I consider to be a very worthwhile thing from the sigs' viewpoint (obviously), ours (as it's a little bit of variety and we get to play with others), and the supported  unit(s) benefit as well. Unfortunately, we only had four machines this year instead of eight to ten last year, and started with a couple of extra crews but were down to just four by the end. That made for some long and hectic days for them.



I was with TF 31-06 .. we put the request up to be inserted by helo but the best that we could get was a famil flight, which worked out well as almost the entire detachment was able to go. Was a good ex next year I just hope theres more opportunity for me to get involved.


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## Adrian (31 Aug 2006)

TF 31's field kitchen was...well, I've never ate army food anywhere that was so good.  Quite a change from last year...


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## Loachman (31 Aug 2006)

Which may partially explain the drop in the number of visitors to 400 Sqn at meal times - we had competition...


----------



## Pikache (31 Aug 2006)

RecceDG said:
			
		

> Aside from the sudden downpour on Sunday AM that caught my guys in the middle of helicopter loading/unloading practise and soaked us to the skin, overall, it was a great ex.



lol. My section was tasked to put up a fence all around Camp Bengal. Which brings me to first point. 
If you're going to do something, like putting up a fence, at least do it right, instead of one strand of wire, or not put one up at all.



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> I think the soldiers generally found it to be a good ex.  Our FOB was well laid out and contributed to the effectiveness of the training.  The OPFOR (of which my son was a member against 32 CBG) was well briefed and used.


I agree as well. Camp Bengal was well organized and everything was good to go. But yeah. White light, mods and cots did some getting used to.


> 1. Presence patrols often made efforts to avoid being detected (i.e. diving into the ditch when vehicles approached, not using white light etc.) as junior leaders still equated patrolling with stealth.


It also helps to have presence patrols in urban area. I realize there isn't enough real estate to go around, but doing presence patrols in an area where there is no presence needed kinda defeats the purpose, otherwise it's just a walk on the road.


> 4.  Comms sucked.  Need more freqs and many, many more radios.  PRRs should be used on training like this as a supplement to TCCCS.


Agreed. Being 'out there' and might run into trouble and having no comms with a higher up is unsettling, esp. with armed bad guys running around. How does one solve that problem, when your FOB is outside of range of radios? (Have a mini CP somewhere half point?)

Also, when dropping arty sims, it defeats the purpose if it is meant for only certain section of the camp and advanced warning (or anything warning at all) reaches other units after the arty sims have been dropped. Having to scramble out from doing whatever and being told it's a false alarm means troops start to take them less seriously.

Overall I was pretty satisfied with the ex. OPFOR gave a lot of interesting scenarios to deal with (incl a firefight with PLA and a protester just happens to wander through, then an NGO shows up. How likely that is I'm not sure, but pretty interesting) Most of the time well organized and I think I learned a lot while enjoying the experience.

This is not badmouthing our armoured recce comrades, but do you guys know what an infantry guys want from recce on an objective? (IE suggested positions for assault and firebase, etc)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Aug 2006)

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> l
> 
> This is not badmouthing our armoured recce comrades, but do you guys know what an infantry guys want from recce on an objective? (IE suggested positions for assault and firebase, etc)



Did anyone bother telling them what you wanted to know. They can find out just about anything for you, but you got to give them mission specifics. Otherwise they tell you the basics, where the likely enemy is, what they're doing, and what they expect them to do and how. If they didn't do your COPPED for you, it's because they weren't asked to.


----------



## Love793 (31 Aug 2006)

To add to what Recceguy said, Finding the Firebase and your Attack Positions are actually your Six Zeros job (close recce versus medium).  Again, if we are asked to do it we will be glad to, but we need to know in advance what you require so we can conduct a propper contact handover to you.


----------



## Poppa (31 Aug 2006)

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Also, when dropping arty sims, it defeats the purpose if it is meant for only certain section of the camp and advanced warning (or anything warning at all) reaches other units after the arty sims have been dropped. Having to scramble out from doing whatever and being told it's a false alarm means troops start to take them less seriously.



Just to add my 0.02 in at our FOB the SOP that was passed down to us was when under "arty" attack...put on your helmets and carry on as per. When someone asked what about if we're sleeping..the response was to roll over and go back to sleep. 
Now as an old guy I appreciate this type of SOP but it's doing a disservice IMO.


----------



## Haggis (31 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> Just to add my 0.02 in at our FOB the SOP that was passed down to us was when under "arty" attack...put on your helmets and carry on as per. When someone asked what about if we're sleeping..the response was to roll over and go back to sleep.
> Now as an old guy I appreciate this type of SOP but it's doing a disservice IMO.



This was a point I was hoping to bring out at the "Hot Wash", but alas, it turned into "The Vigilant Guardian Awards".  I found it fascinating that a lot of points were collated, analysed and brought forward in a stunning display of PowerPoint legerdemain, but I don't recall anyone soliciting input from my OC or I.


----------



## George Wallace (31 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> Just to add my 0.02 in at our FOB the SOP that was passed down to us was when under "arty" attack...put on your helmets and carry on as per. When someone asked what about if we're sleeping..the response was to roll over and go back to sleep.
> Now as an old guy I appreciate this type of SOP but it's doing a disservice IMO.



The main point of it was that pers didn't start running from one end of the FOB to the other end where they had left their helmet and vest, etc.  If they did not have them handy, they were not to make themselves casualties by running around the Camp to get them.


----------



## George Wallace (31 Aug 2006)

Passage of Info Up and Down needs to be improved.  With the plans for next year being out in the RMA, the passage of Info, by all means, is going to be very problematic.  As many in the upper echelons have already said, the planning has to start now.  In some cases, there will be a drastic need of a miracle or series of miracles to make it happen.


----------



## Haggis (31 Aug 2006)

True, George.

Speaking of miracles, I beleive in the miracle of immaculate conception and birth.

I've already tasked my CQMS to store all out TCCCS kit in a comfortable room with soft lighting and romantic music in hopes that our stocks of radios will multiply before next August.


----------



## George Wallace (31 Aug 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> True, George.
> 
> Speaking of miracles, I beleive in the miracle of immaculate conception and birth.
> 
> I've already tasked my CQMS to store all out TCCCS kit in a comfortable room with soft lighting and romantic music in hopes that our stocks of radios will multiply before next August.



Could you give them all some business cards too?  That way we may be able to get them to do some Networking also.


----------



## Loachman (31 Aug 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> Just to add my 0.02 in at our FOB the SOP that was passed down to us was when under "arty" attack...put on your helmets and carry on as per. When someone asked what about if we're sleeping..the response was to roll over and go back to sleep.
> Now as an old guy I appreciate this type of SOP but it's doing a disservice IMO.


A concern during the planning phase was the potential for over-reaction, ie people responding to MEL events that were not intended for them. Those on gate/tower duty needed to be exercised, but not those living close by and preparing for a diffferent mission. The intent was to avoid disrupting them too much.


----------



## Loachman (31 Aug 2006)

One other point - planning this exercise was as much of a novelty for the staff as participation was for the PTA. It hadn't been done before, and more than a few of us were not quite sure how it was going to work out, or what the troops would think.

Personally, from what I heard, it worked out rather well with obvious areas in which to improve.

This whole series has been rather ambitious, and it's been very satisfying to have been on the inside seeing it all unfolding over the last four.

There are going to be new challenges as we spread out around Pet for Valiant Guardian next year, and even more with further spreading out in 08. I'm already trying to figure out how we're going to get the best value for the most troops out of an extremely limited aviation element - four or five from 400 Squadron alone to cover North Bay to Ottawa to Kitchener or something like that (our ALO was busy enough driving from FOB to FOB as it was - think of the mileage he'll be putting on in 08).

I'll once more be trying to get US ARNG units to play, but they keep going off to war instead.


----------



## Forgotten_Hero (1 Sep 2006)

In terms of training value, it was good. Its really different from the old warfighting stuff, so our old habits are taking over still... But then we think about ROEs and kind of flinch. Its not "natural" to us yet. The problem I did notice is that, at least for my section, we didnt run into "worst case scenario" events often enough. The majority of the ex we ran into situations that didnt require anything more than empty hand control at the worst, and we always pulled through those without much trouble... however we need more pratice reacting to situations with suicide bombers so that people dont flinch or stall. Hopefully our units and next years ex will focus on that sort of stuff more though.



> West Isle is a beautiful country.



For a country so far down south... you'd think it'd be warmer at night!



> I know of whom you speak and they were indeed priceless (especially the sgt who came to our "Fight Night").



Hah, that was priceless. Always kept a straight face too.



> Refugees at the gates, protesters, IEDs, Ethnic violence. In one situation, the OPFOR made such a real showing of "beating" a female member, and her screams were so realistic, that a couple of my guys thought it was real, and ran out to go help.
> 
> It's this kind of training that's going to prepare people for things they may encounter in theatre.



I saw a few IEDs happen and a protest, but it was so sparse that you were lucky if you were part of it.



> Now you are opening a 'Can of Worms'.  The ROEs were not thought out well and not published correctly, having to be corrected midway through the Ex.  The 'Question' should be "Were the final version of the ROEs effective and easy for the troops to understand and enforce?"



Really? What changes were made? I didnt hear of any changes half way through the ex...



> There are going to be new challenges as we spread out around Pet for Valiant Guardian next year, and even more with further spreading out in 08. I'm already trying to figure out how we're going to get the best value for the most troops out of an extremely limited aviation element - four or five from 400 Squadron alone to cover North Bay to Ottawa to Kitchener or something like that (our ALO was busy enough driving from FOB to FOB as it was - think of the mileage he'll be putting on in 08).



Wow, we'll really be spread out that much in 08?


----------



## Loachman (1 Sep 2006)

Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> Wow, we'll really be spread out that much in 08?


That's the general idea.

This ex was, as I'm sure all know, just the introduction - hence the simple MEL events that you describe. The complexity will increase over the next two years.


----------



## Pikache (1 Sep 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Did anyone bother telling them what you wanted to know. They can find out just about anything for you, but you got to give them mission specifics. Otherwise they tell you the basics, where the likely enemy is, what they're doing, and what they expect them to do and how. If they didn't do your COPPED for you, it's because they weren't asked to.


Hmmm... Sounds like there was a breaking down in information somewhere.





			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> That's the general idea.
> 
> This ex was, as I'm sure all know, just the introduction - hence the simple MEL events that you describe. The complexity will increase over the next two years.


Any plans on coordinating with local communities around Pet?


----------



## Pikache (1 Sep 2006)

Just remembered another good point.

More different trades working with each other. 
Was good to have MPs and engineers attached to my platoon.


----------



## Loachman (1 Sep 2006)

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Any plans on coordinating with local communities around Pet?



We did a couple of recce and photo missions of likely communities, but the decision has not yet been made. Deep River, Eganville, Cobden, Beachburg, and Westmeath are current candidates. The first three were the ones mentioned at the hot wash.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Sep 2006)

Towns in the Upper Ottawa Valley have seen a lot of troops deployed on exercises over the years.  2 CMBG Units have exercised throughout Eastern Ontario on a regular basis, so this should be nothing new.  Exercises have ranged from east of Hawksbury through to Peterborough and Meaford up to Timmins as well as further out and out of province.  I am sure that next year's Ex will prove no problem.


----------



## Pte. Perry (2 Sep 2006)

After being stuck in Observer/Control for the first few days a driver to a warrant, we had to stop at the OpForce H.Q.. If they were better organized for next year, I think the EX would be much more interesting. a big problem was leadership and transport for them. also I was just wondering what the names of the other FOB's were. I know ours (33) was "Better Than 32"


----------



## Spanky (2 Sep 2006)

But not as good as 31.   ;D


----------



## josh (2 Sep 2006)

Ah, to be in the MOLITIA. ;D


----------



## Haggis (2 Sep 2006)

josh said:
			
		

> Ah, to be in the MOLITIA. ;D


Yep!  Adventure, fair pay, a dental plan, money for an education, neat kit and a chance to see the world.

Go to: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/careers/parttime_e.asp


----------



## josh (2 Sep 2006)

Dental plan!?  I remember when I had a couple of my front teeth knocked out grinning into the ejection port of a C2 when I was directing fire from a trench.  ;D


----------



## silentone (2 Sep 2006)

The Excercise was enjoyable, especially to the meny new privates I came across that hadn't done any real excercises minus the ones on course. But of course many things could have been improved. I read most of what was posted and agree with a lot of it. 
One thing I will note myself is the on-the-fly training a lot of people went through (even in the rehearsals). It was a tremendous help and training aid to have sme's attached suchas the MP's and the Engineers. They did an excellent job of helping us infantry see things we normally wouldn't have, including searching and handling of prisoners. We learned a lot from them in the rehearsals and walk-through/talk-through's.
I will also like to say that the excercise (though  i know it to be the first of this trilogy) seemed to be a lot for the attached and supporting roles/units. No complaints on my end though, they all did their jobs, from my vantage point, very well. A lot of the infanteers would have liked to see more "action." Yes camp security is very important, but there didn't seem to be much rotation to provide fresh experiences with each new day or rotation. What I mean is more movement for the infantry types would have added to the ex experience. 
The helicopter is always a twinkle in any soldiers eye on ex. i even heard they were giving fun rides to those non-infantry types to give them the experience. If that is true, That's great. :warstory: I think everyone should enjoy a ride or two. The pilots I think also knew that a number of people hadn't ridden on them before, so the rides were always exciting.  Of course everyone owuld like to say they'd want them to be longer; but enjoy what you get, right?
I will say overall, even though I slept quite a bit, and that's a change in comparison to last years ex and som eof the other ex's i've been on, this was a good ex. A learning experience for all. I just hope next year it will be better with more movement for us infantry, though I did enjoy the sleep and was well rested for each task I was given. Also, all will agree when I say miles gear and simunition would be a great training aid and more enjoyable and people will be more prone to properly handle their their gear and selves. Not that anyone wasn't that I saw.  Note for anyone looking for improvement's for next year's ex.   
i'm didn't create the excercise and i know that i probably won't be on the team helping anytime soon, but I thought my input might help anyone looking over the pages and decide to add to the ex next year. 

--ALSO-- The food was awesome, good job cooks!! The field kitchen was great.


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## Echo9 (3 Sep 2006)

33's spot should've been called FOB Tank Rut, given its location on the Mattawa... or FOB Short Bus, as you see fit (observation towers situated on low ground at the edge of a forest???)


For me the exercise was one of missed opportunities.  A lot of that was due to completely understandable factors, but I think that it's still fair to say that with a little additional work, a much better training outcome could have been achieved.  

CSS was atrocious (aside from the food), which I'm surprised didn't make the hot wash top 3.  The spin that was put on comms at the hot wash was ridiculous (distribution could have been better, still successful comms plan)- there were tasks that didn't happen because the comms were so bad.  The point on RoE was accurate, but understated: it could be argued that the CoG of the ex was use of RoE, and real ones were never issued for the ex as a whole (the soldier card was more aide memoire than direction, subunits improvised).

I shouldn't sound so negative- a lot of this is based on the fact that this was the first ex that did not have the assistance of the Area G3, and was also the first one where we were stepping away from cold war style ops.  There's going to be a lot of things that don't go as well as they should under these circumstances.  But to be honest with ourselves, I think that we need to recognize that it was only a partial success, and build on it for next year.


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## career_radio-checker (4 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I've already tasked my CQMS to store all out TCCCS kit in a comfortable room with soft lighting and romantic music in hopes that our stocks of radios will multiply before next August.



 :rofl: LOL

An excellent idea. I also suggest you find a statue of 'Jimmy' burn some incense and make a weekly offering to the TCCCS Gods.  In reality, to improve comms, all you need is some height on your antennas, not more RRBs. If possible, put in a SUPREQ for at least one Vixen mast and associated kit. The most important part is the Ground Plan Antenna (GPA) and co-axial cable which plugs right into the manpack and, depending on surrounding land features(trees, mountains, hills), you can increase the range of the manpack by x2 or even x3 fold. My Sarge put the GPA on top of a flag pole of camm-poles for the medics and got an award for it. Of course it should have been done for the rest of the Coys HQs but we didn't have enough. Hence the suggestion you put in a SUPREQ.

Other than that the Ex was a really good go. FOB 'Better than 32' rocked, and the power of the 'white triangle' will always be remembered. Our triangle is being framed and put up at the unit (a real one by the way, not mine tape or chalk). I really enjoyed the ex and learned heaps from my seargents and everyone else in the FOB HQ. I'm going to put my name in for the COY going out to Wainwright next year and play with all that Guuchy kit.


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## Canadian Sig (4 Sep 2006)

All of you guys should have a Racal whip, a SPD (spud) 1 and some co-ax. After that as CRC says cam poles will do as a mast or in a pinch mount it into a tree. Our sqn was tasked far less to support this year. We usually have reg force 215 out with units to help work out comms and 2 or 3 RRBs, but this year it was 1 RRB and that was it.


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## a_majoor (5 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> 4.  *Comms sucked.  Need more freqs and many, many more radios.  PRRs should be used on training like this as a supplement to TCCCS*.



For point four I will put on my official G6 hat:

The number of frequencies allocated to Petawawa are limited, and this EX sucked up the vast majority of those available. Get used to it, this is a limitation almost anywhere on earth and even in space (how many SATCOM channels do you think a CF Task force is going to be able to grab from the Americans? Hint, we don't operate our own comsat fleet). If you want to have VG 07 in Antarctica we may be able to access more frequencies, but otherwise......

Using FRS or GMRS radios is *FORBIDDEN*, and there is an LFCAD on that subject. Once we start training outside of Pet the possibility of crossing into civilian frequencies and services increases exponentially, and Industry Canada (the licencing agency for radio spectrum allocation) can levy fines totalling many thousands of dollars for interference. If they hand me the ticket I *will* be looking for you, sunshine. BTW, your TX *are* being monitored.

Motorolla CT-250s are expedient solutions to the TCCCS shortage problems. They are intended for admin traffic (C/S 8) so we can push the TCCCS radios we do have to the tactical troops. Some people were using them as substitutes for TCCCS, which gave rise to "cross talk" problems on various nets. CT 250 channels and frequency maps are assigned AREA WIDE, people are not to flash their own frequency maps and channel allocations to these radios (see points on FRS and GMRS). *Read and follow the CEOI's people*. PRR would be nice, but this is part of the same problem with TCCCS: not enough exist. What we really need are more RAD A and RAD B analogues, since the 521 RAD D sucks for range. Of course a "Combat Blackberry" would be nice as well.

Part of the exercise planning process was to colocate all the coy level HQ's with the TFHQ to minimise the toing and froing, allow situational awareness and the max use of telephone traffic (as well as minimize the need for HQ radios). "Some" FOBs recreated themselves and dispersed their HQ's, consuming valuable time and radio resources in the process. 

For people who thought there were problems with the comms plan, we worked with the available resources. Now if we could only get people to execute the plan as written...... :rage:


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## Long in the tooth (5 Sep 2006)

Obviously my knowledge of the 510 set is of little use here......


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## Haggis (5 Sep 2006)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Obviously my knowledge of the 510 set is of little use here......



It was a good radio and (IMO) a heck of a lot more robust  (and serviceable) that the TCCCS stuff we routinely get back from ARC.



			
				a_majoor said:
			
		

> For point four I will put on my official G6 hat:



Make sure it's on good and tight, Arthur, for here it comes:



			
				a_majoor said:
			
		

> The number of frequencies allocated to Petawawa are limited, and this EX sucked up the vast majority of those available.



Ask IC for more freqs to be used specifically on this ex on a strict NIB.  Or,"borrow" unused freqs from2 CMBG units.



			
				a_majoor said:
			
		

> Using FRS or GMRS radios is *FORBIDDEN*, and there is an LFCAD on that subject. .....
> Motorolla CT-250s are expedient solutions to the TCCCS shortage problems. ....PRR would be nice, but this is part of the same problem with TCCCS: not enough exist. What we really need are more RAD A and RAD B analogues, since the 521 RAD D sucks for range.



So, source more radios!  SQFT didn't do a VG style ex this year so why not borrow theirs?  What of the radios in TF3-06 units?  They didn't take them overseas.  Source those.



			
				a_majoor said:
			
		

> For people who thought there were problems with the comms plan, we worked with the available resources. Now if we could only get people to execute the plan as written...... :rage:



Your rage is misplaced.  Look inwards as well as outwards.  "Train as you Fight" is not just a catchphrase thrown about to encourage us to deal with adversity.  Properly training soldiers for battle in the COE is like building a car from scratch.  The performance you get out of it is depandant on the parts you put into it.   You can't build a Cadillac using Skoda parts.


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## Loachman (5 Sep 2006)

silentone said:
			
		

> The helicopter is always a twinkle in any soldiers eye on ex.



Thank-you. This is my motivation. I started out as a rifleman in 4 RCR in 1973 and that was the best thing about that year's concentration - and most other ones as well. I appreciate not only the training value but the excitement and retention value as well. I hate seeing empty seats in the back.



> i even heard they were giving fun rides to those non-infantry types to give them the experience. If that is true, That's great. :warstory: I think everyone should enjoy a ride or two.



True. We were able to squeeze in a couple of famil flights primarily for GDs and Sigs Guys etcetera (the people who do all of the work) at 3 MNB HQ and a couple of the TFs despite a huge reduction in capacity this year. Unfortunately, a few got turned away at the Sqn loc on one occasion because more showed up than expected and we just couldn't take them without jeopardizing ex missions. I really regret that though, so if any of them are on this site: sorry.



> The pilots I think also knew that a number of people hadn't ridden on them before, so the rides were always exciting.



We are well aware of that, hence the stress on load/unload drills prior - but even those who've done it before need the refresher. I always include (with few exceptions) a circuit in the tasking, so that once the dry drills are done, everybody gets to do it once with the noise, wind, and blowing dust/twigs/small rodents etcetera as a disposal-of-virginity thing for the new guys. I've found that, for them, the fear/thrill of the first flight combined with the rush of going into a tactical situation is often overwhelming, and that's when they forget the drills, especially when offloading. It's not always possible to do this, though, due to weather, time, or other problems. As for the ride, we all like the tactical flying, whether we're in the front seat or back. My custom, when the situation allows, is, if I hear any shrieks or screams from the back (whether from fright or delight), to repeat that manoeuvre until the shrieking or screaming stops.



> Of course everyone owuld like to say they'd want them to be longer



We'd agree, but there are time, fuel, and airspace restrictions that, together or separately, prevent that. It takes too much time and fuel to move a company decently in three or four lifts of four hels especially if a fifteen- to thirty-minute refuel is required, and when one's area is bounded by live ranges and arty gun positions...



> Also, all will agree when I say miles gear and simunition would be a great training aid and more enjoyable and people will be more prone to properly handle their their gear and selves.!!



Definitely, but the MILES gear has to be rented and it costs a fortune to do so, which is why it was cut last year. I think that the cost would have been over $1M back then.


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## DG-41 (6 Sep 2006)

Don't get me started on comms...

Ah, what the hell - we need to get this info out to the people who make the descisions and control the purse strings.

After having witnessed the Chinese fire drill that was the comms situation at Stalwart Guardian last year, and having fallen victim to various comms problems throughout the training year, comms was first and foremost on my mind for VG.

All our 522 manpacks were tasked out to ARC, and I was told we'd get them back for VG. Having no control over that, I chose to be optimistic and believe it.

We also have 2 X Iltis equipped with 522 "A Set" installations. One is complete, the other was missing a power cable. I arranged it so that both vehicles would be sent to VG on the flatbed, and I arranged for the 2 X 522 that we have that don't have manpack adaptors to come up with us on the road move, along with all the vehicle installation EIS.

The intent was to have 2 X "A Sets" in the troop. That would require knitting a power cable, but I have faith in the scrounging abilities of our guys.

Well, the vehicle with the missing power cable broke down while being loaded on the flatbed, so what I had on the ground Day 1 of VG was 1 X "A Set" complete, plus a spare 522 (less battery plate), plus a hockey sock of 521s.

Of our 522 manpacks, 3 made it back from ARC - so now I had an A set in my callsign, a 522 in each patrol commander's car, and 521s in all the junior cars. Plus, as backup comms, I have a bunch of privately-purchased FRS radios.

At this point, my intent is to use the TCCCS net and only use the FRS if TCCCS goes down.

As it happens, by the halfway point of the ex, we've determined that most of the 521s are useless, and that there are problems with a lot of the TCCCS handsets/headsets. For the first convoy escort task, we are working half TCCCS, half FRS. This means I'm running two parallel troop nets, where no one net can reach the whole troop, and I wind up a very busy beaver when I finally wrap my head around that I have to relay net traffic from one net to the other.

That night, the word comes down that the Jimmies are upset about all the FRS traffic (not just us by a long shot) that there are big fines involved, ELINT operators in the area triangulating signals, blah blah blah. My OC gives me a direct order to stand down all FRS traffic... and there's *no* wiggle room in that order, so I have to comply. When I point out that there is a safety issue here, I'm told that that they will stand down training for callsigns that cannot maintain effective comms during tasks.

Jimmies, think about that for a second - **we lose comms, we stop training**.

Now as it happens, the Tp WO and I had forseen that "no FRS" order, and we had not let up on our attempts to scrounge additional radios. We got two more back from ARC that day, and it turned out that one of the 1H radios installed in the CP had started life as a manpack, so we were able to draw the spare battery plate and affix it to the battery-plateless 522 we had brought up for our other vehicle installation. This brought us to 1 X A set, 6 X 522 manpacks, and 1 X 521 for all 8 vehicles (and in actuality, the 521 in T42G could hear everybody else, but only talk to one other 521 - and those were our best 521s! - so my callsign would up carrying the 521 that Golf could talk to)

We also had time (while I was doing battle procedure for a combined arms task with the Infantry) to sort through the EIS and come up with working handsets/headsets for everybody.

From that point on, comms were awesome. I, having the A set, could talk to the world, and part of my combat appreciation was placing myself in optimum positions for comms purposes - I wound up relaying most of the radio traffic from the India platoons to their CP and to each other. Not all of my callsigns could talk to each other or the CP (although most could) and I could relay the rest.

But everything, and I do mean *EVERYTHING*, hinged on that one A set installation. That's what made this work. Had we lost that, we would have been eukered. As it happened, the jeep that that installation lives in was crankier than hell, and the only reason it kept running all week was because of some good support from our FOB-mate maintainers, and because there was an ex-maintainer in the crew.

The one dark cloud in this sunny picture happened during the second convoy escort. It appears that our frequency - and we only got the one! - was also issued to another Task Force, and for a good chunk of our trace we were overlapping each other. That, in of itself, wasn't bad (at least we had different callsigns for all else save the CPs) but the mystery callsigns's scenario had OPFOR compromise the frequency and start jamming (although I'm not sure if this was OPFOR or an overenthusiastic Observer/Controller) Our scenario had us notionally on encrypted comms and so we were free to say what we needed to (a way around the fact that we had no alternate frequency) but the mystery OPFOR and O/C kept trying to chase us off the frequency. I wound up in a bunfight with the O/C over the use of the frequency, which was really only solved when we finally moved out of range.

So then, here are my VG comms AAR points:

1) Each arm in each task force needs its own frequency, pointe finale. When we get close enough together to start stepping on each other, confusion reigns and training realism goes out the window. This is DOUBLY true when there are no alternate frequencies issued. If it takes a year to reserve/assign that much of the spectrum, then start the paperwork now.

2) Of all the arms likely to step on each other, Armoured Recce is the most probable, because we cover the most ground and we (should) have the highest power transmitters. I saw every corner of the AOR we were alloted. If there is a shortage of frequencies such that task forces *must* overlap, at the very least, reserve three frequencies for the exclusive use of the Armour (one per TF)

3) The vehicle mounted "A Set" radio is the centerpiece of Recce comms. All our brand spanking new GWagons have the wiring and mount points in place to accept vehicle installations - these MUST MUST MUST be installed into the GWagons as fast as possible - maybe it could be arranged that Rad Techs visit units to install them? The minimum number is two installations per troop (the Tp Leader and a backup) so if they are in short supply, you're looking at 4-6 installations per Armoured Recce unit (depending on unit size)

4) There needs to be some sort of process between the turn-in of radios tasked to ARC and the reissue of radios coming back from ARC. We wasted a lot of time tracking down radios, determining which handsets/headsets were actually functional, etc etc. Either we need more time at the start of the ex before jumping into the tactical scenarios so we can sort this stuff out, or there needs to be rad techs involved with radio turn-in after ARC so N/S EIS can be weeded out before the units get on the ground.

5) As far as FRS goes... while I agree that FRS should be a backup at best (if I have working TCCCS comms I don't need FRS) I personally see stepping on the FRS spectrum as no different than using a farmer's field in Germany as a manouevre area. We try to avoid stepping on private property whenever possible, but the demands of the mission take priority. I would LOVE to see the court case when somebody tries to fine a soldier for using FRS during training because the Army couldn't/wouldn't issue him a radio that could do the job. Do any of us want to see THAT on CBC news or on the front page of the Globe and Mail?

If comms aren't fixed, that WILL happen - its only a matter of time.

DG


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Sep 2006)

RecceDG said:
			
		

> Don't get me started on comms...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I want to reemphasize a point a_majoor made: there aren’t that many frequencies.  The radio frequency spectrum is a finite natural resource which all, civil and military, friend and foe alike must share and it is being used, shared, reused, subdivided and otherwise chewed up at an astonishing rate.  It can be made more efficient if one throws more and more money at the problem.  25 kHz channels could be 10 kHz channels – and could still be secure - *IF* we are willing to spend billions and billions more on radios – rather than, say, new weapons, vehicles, aircraft or ships.  To make matters ‘worse’ you (the military) are seeking more and more RF dependent systems – including e.g. devices to jam IEDs and incoming PRGs; those that do not use active RF transmitters for the job still use radio for system command and control.  

Power and frequency usage are intimately connected – the more power A uses then less frequencies are available for B, C, D … Z because A uses that frequency and he ties up the adjacent channels and harmonic channels (66.5 MHz is the harmonic of 33.25 MHz) and so on.

Radio spectrum assignment, for the army, was one of the 'top 10' problems debriefed in the Pentagon after Desert Storm.  Nothing, to the best of my knowledge, has changed all that much since what I said just above was said to the US Army and Marine commanders in 1991.

As an aside: FRS spectrum is not private.  If you bought the radio you bought the ‘right’ to use the channel – on a no-protection basis.  You might interfere with others and they might interfere with you.  No problems.  You may not use any radio, including your TCCCS radios, to interfere with _licensed_ frequencies and your TCCCS radios overlap several *[exclusive*civilian frequency bands.


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## career_radio-checker (7 Sep 2006)

Allright, that's it! For VG07 it's going to be smoke signals and carrier pigeon.  ;D

At least you won't have obnoxious Zero on your back, correcting every single little mistake.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Sep 2006)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> Allright, that's it! For VG07 it's going to be smoke signals and carrier pigeon.  ;D
> 
> At least you won't have obnoxious Zero on your back, correcting every single little mistake.



I hate to indicate how old I really am, but: about 40 years ago, when Canadian infantry battalions in 1st (BR) Corps were just short of 1,000 men in strength, had 100+ APCs , 75+ wheeled vehicle, 150+ radios,* etc, etc, etc … we simply got used to sharing spectrum and we made it work, day-in and day-out.  1 (BR) Corps was a large_ish_ formation (3+ divisions) which might have deployed in a fairly tight area (if our allies showed up for Day 1 of the war, a prospect which was viewed, by the corps commander and staff as being highly unlikely).  There was less spectrum available (smaller tuning ranges for many of the radios)  and use was more complex (higher power, wider (50 kHz channels), poor ‘adjacent-channel’ and ‘co-channel’ characteristics, etc).

We trained for the war we planned to fight and we planned to share most of the VHF spectrum amongst ourselves – with way, way too many nets for the available channels, and with the red hordes and with EW jammers on both sides and with flanking formations – if they appeared.  That means we trained, routinely, with company nets shared two, three, even four times over.  We learned to use good excellent procedures to remain fighting effective despite the characteristics and limitations of the signalling systems.

We made the best use we could manage of our radios – and land line, which we laid prodigiously, even though we were highly mobile.  We all learned a lot about radio – not because of mistrust of _Pronto_ and his people but because he/they were concentrated in one spot (Bn HQ) and everyone else had to understand how to get the most out of our radios wherever they were.

It is not the radio’s _fault_.  It is not the system’s _fault_.  They may not be the best but I am 99.99% sure they are better, much better, than what they replaced.  If you cannot make them work, despite their limitations then I suggest the _fault_ is with your skills and knowledge and, therefore, with the individual and unit training programmes.

</rant> - _nothing personal, but it (blaming the hardware/system) is one of pet peeves_ 
----------

* I used to know this stuff in detail: for a while I was _keeper_ of the battalion's weapons, radios, vehicles, etc - what we used to call 'G controlled' (G meaning general (ops) staff, as opposed to Q (log) staff) stores.  I think I can still draw the 'grouping' diagrams in my sleep.


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## DG-41 (7 Sep 2006)

> I hate to indicate how old I really am, but: about 40 years ago, when Canadian infantry battalions in 1st (BR) Corps were just short of 1,000 men in strength, had 100+ APCs , 75+ wheeled vehicle, 150+ radios,* etc, etc, etc … we simply got used to sharing spectrum and we made it work, day-in and day-out.



You're not the only old fart on here Mr. Cambell. 

The practice when I did my Phase 4 so many moons ago was 2 radios in the Tp Ldr's car - one for the Tp net, one for the Sqn net. (and I guess they still teach it that way) Not once have I *ever* seen that outside of the course environment. 

Standard practice (in my experience) has been forever 1 frequency for all armour, and I've been in situations where we had one frequency for two squadrons of Sabre and three troops of Recce, and yes, we made it all work through impeccable voice procedure and extensive use of other-means comms (particularly hand signals).

But we don't live in that world anymore.

1) The overall status of voice procedure in the Corps is *terrible*; just horrid. I blame this on two factors:

     a) Equipment availablity: Once upon a time, every single callsign had a 524 set mounted in the vehicle and a 77 set strapped to the trunk monkey. Nowadays, if you have 1 X 522 manpack for every patrol, you're doing well, and on VG I was beside myself with joy to have a single A set in my callsign, plus 522 manpacks in 6 of the remaining 7 callisgns.

     b) The lack of speakers. When we all had 524 sets, which have built-in speakers, everybody in the crew was constantly exposed to the radio chatter. Voice procedure has a rythym and flow to it, and with the speaker on, everybody got to hear it even if they weren't actively using the radio themselves. It made it so one learned by osmosis. Nowadays, the radio is limited to the phones on the crew commander's head, so the driver and observer just don't get the exposure any more, and VP quality is suffering accordingly.

Not only is this bad for voice procedure, it's bad for SA as well.

Yes, there exist speaker boxes for TCCCS. See point 1a.

2) The size of the Primary Training Audience has shrunk. Once of a time, the summer concentrations would exercise Regiments, with the Regimental CO (or the Combat Team CO) getting orders, doing battle procedure, issuing orders to Squadron Commanders, and down through the chain to Tp Leaders and Patrol Commanders. Everybody on that shared frequency was on the same mission at the same time, working towards the same end state.

This year, the size of the PTA was the Troop/Platoon (although it is my observation that the Infantry fudged that somewhat and they were operating more at the Company level) At any given point in time, you had three Infantry companies and two Recce Tps, operating out of the same task force and same FOB, working on 5 completely separate and independant tasks - and here's the important part - under separate umpire/Observer/Comtroller control. 

When we did the Regimental sized tasks, any enemy seen by one was enemy seen by all. But when we are doing the smaller-scale stuff, it was entirely possible (and in fact commonplace) that enemy activity that was part of a given unit's training scenario "wasn't actually happening" for another unit's scenario.

And for small unit training, that's entirely appropriate. Each subunit is trying to learn a set of skills appropriate for that subunit, and you don't want training for other, unrelated subunits bleeding over and contaminating the training for each other. When we run an Armoured Phase 4 and an Infantry PLQ in the same training area, we don't want the PLQ suddenly executing section attacks on contacts called in by the Phase 4. The courses effectively inhabit separate realities.

Now multiply that by three task forces....

That's what happened to us on VG. The "reality" of a pair of unrelated units carrying out unrelated missions under separate Observer/Controller control bled into each other, and the result was lost training value for both sides.

We *probably* could have worked it out on the fly, except that the other unit's "reality" included the frequency being compromised, and as a direct result, their Observer/Controller tried to kick us off our own means - which resulted in even MORE lost training value as we tried to sort THAT out.

OK, so a reasonable approach is to treat their "reality" as if it was "real" for us too - play it like OPFOR had compromised OUR means too and act accordingly. Well that's fine and dandy, but we weren't issued an alternate frequency, and my only alternate means (the Tp FRS radios) had been banned - meaning we were stuck.

The point I'm making here is that if the next few iterations of the XX Guardian exercises are going to continue to be Tp/Platoon level focussed, then we need separate frequencies exclusive to each subunit to ensure maximum training value.

I know that I've identified crappy voice procedure as a major problem, and I intend to adjust unit training accordingly in order to rectify it.

Incidently, the comms situation wasn't all bad. We did two combined arms tasks with two separate Infantry companies, using their company frequency, and that I think added a lot of training value. It got us used to working as subordinate callsigns on someone else's net (so Tango 42 instead of 42, etc) it taught me a lot about liasing Command and Sigs with another arm (making sure my report lines make it onto their trace) and it provided an opportunity for Armour to add value to Infantry training when we wound up acting as their radio relays. But note that this is a step towards the "Regimental" exercise level, away from the "Troop/Platoon" exercise level.

And man, as bad as Tango voice procedure is, the India callsigns are WAY worse....

I also had no problems dealing with Zero - in fact, I don't think Zero ever wanted to talk to me. Three Niner, however, had issues with Zero harassing him about his H-Hour being pushed back while he was chest-deep in a swamp.... 

And finally, I have no issues with TCCCS as a technology. I think there are flaws in implementation, especially with the user interface, but that's not a killer tomatoe by ANY means - when we have it, it works. My problem with TCCCS is that we DON'T HAVE ENOUGH OF THEM. I was short 7 X A sets and 2 X 522 manpacks, and I'm beside myself with joy that I had the stuff that I DID have - I was quite possibly the best-equipped Recce Tp on the whole exercise with my 1 X A set and 6 X 522.

DG


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## a_majoor (7 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Make sure it's on good and tight, Arthur, for here it comes:



Good thing the G6 hat comes with a Kevlar backing



> Ask IC for more freqs to be used specifically on this ex on a strict NIB.  Or,"borrow" unused freqs from2 CMBG units.



The Forman of Signals was scrambling for this area wide, but frequencies aren't available in ailse 36 of Canadian Tire. The frequencies we got ARE the unused ones, but other groups like CSOR, the "Ski Team", various base functions you don't want to shut down, Range control etc. are present and also need frequency allocations. See also what Edward Campbell has to say on this subject.



> So, source more radios!  SQFT didn't do a VG style ex this year so why not borrow theirs?  What of the radios in TF3-06 units?  They didn't take them overseas.  Source those.



The flat, bloody spot on our foreheads is due to our attempts to do this. A lot of stuff is going downrange on the G4 net in relation to the ARC situation, consider that retroactive satisfaction for the problems encountered.



> Your rage is misplaced.  Look inwards as well as outwards.  "Train as you Fight" is not just a catchphrase thrown about to encourage us to deal with adversity.  Properly training soldiers for battle in the COE is like building a car from scratch.  The performance you get out of it is depandant on the parts you put into it.   You can't build a Cadillac using Skoda parts.



Since we were hand forging the Skoda parts you did see, expectations may be running too high. Shoot for a Yugo sports model, maybe but if you don't follow the blueprint, there will be difficulty making the parts work together. Edward Campbell has outlined a lot of good historical experience on large radio nets in prior posts, and we should start adjusting the training to reflect those realities as Recce DG points out. Even in "resource rich" environments you would be surprised at some of the lash ups which have to happen, and you will understand if I don't get into more details.


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