# Borden Medics Rideouts with Angus Paramedics



## Old Ranger (29 Jun 2005)

Hi all, 
One of my supervisors asked my partner and I if we would be willing to have Military Medics rideout with us for 
exposure to elderly and paediatric patients.  Anyone heard of this comming up soon?  ??? I had a Medic rideout in Alliston before
and there was some good exchanges and experience for both.
I know we will be busy at Blackdown with some Pt's and those with siren-itus so we might cross paths. ;D


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## Fraser.g (29 Jun 2005)

Before any ride along with civi ambulances can occur there has to be an MoU between DND and the civi service. I believe there is one in Toronto but I could be wrong.

Ask up your CoC for clarification and authorization before you climb in the back of ANY civi amb.

GF


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## Old Ranger (29 Jun 2005)

There was an agreement with the old service (Health Trust).
Simcoe County took us over Jan 2004, most of our Sop's have stayed the same.
Just to clarify, I'm not offering rideouts without the proper go ahead.  
I'm just curious if there was any discussions with the Borden Medics yet?


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## Fraser.g (29 Jun 2005)

Of course you would not go ahead without proper go ahead.
I have found that the CoC is much more receptive to new ideas or re-use of old ones when it is presented as a fait d'complet as opposed to a simple request.

GF


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## Donut (29 Jun 2005)

I had a call from the OPI LFWA HS MOU  a couple of months ago (wow, can I fit any more acronyms into that sentence?   ;D  ) The guy whats responsible for those things....

I know the MOU people are out and about, I've also heard fumours about it in BC Ambulance, not just for the PCP program, but medics flying in for a couple of weeks of  pre-deployment exposure, things like that.

I don't know anything specific about Borden, but the programs in the works, so I wouldn't be suprised.

DF


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## Fraser.g (29 Jun 2005)

I just got the MOU for Saskatoon District on Friday, the Amb one is in the works so I am certain Borden has sompthing in place. Perhaps ArmyMedic could shine some light on this for us as it is his stomping grounds.


GF


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## Cansky (29 Jun 2005)

This is probably part of the Regular force MCSP program (Maintenance of Comptency Skills Program).  Here in Gagetown all our QL 3 Med tech who are PCP qualified have to do annual  2 week period on the civi amblance.  Ql 5 Med tech are suppose to be starting in the near future.  As far as I know this is suppose to be happening right acrosse the country.  Its the only way to keep our trauma skills up or at least some expose other than the day to day sick parade you would see in a clinic.  As RN PRN state a MOU(memo of understanding) has to be done first and I believe most reg force units already have this started.  I have no idea about the reserves as I have none that work for me.  Hope this helps.
Kirsten


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## Gunner98 (29 Jun 2005)

The MOU people are called HS CIMIC (Health Services Civilian Military Cooperation), they already have a great Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program (MCSP) in place in Renfrew County for 2 Fd Amb, 1 Cdn Fd Hosp and CMED.  It is close to completing its first year and is a six week rotation for PCP trained QL3s and QL5s with a chance to work out of up to 5 ambulance stations.  The Upper Ottawa Valley locations vary in demographics, delinquents and disorders. Those who cover the Highway 17 corridor handle a lot of car accidents involving those enroute to/from Algonquin Park.  It is a reciprocal agreement whereas the civilian parameds will spend time with the units in training and on FTXs as well.


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## Cansky (29 Jun 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> The MOU people are called HS CIMIC (Health Services Civilian Military Cooperation), they already have a great Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program (MCSP) in place in Renfrew County for 2 Fd Amb, 1 Cdn Fd Hosp and CMED.   It is close to completing its first year and is a six week rotation for PCP trained QL3s and QL5s with a chance to work out of up to 5 ambulance stations.   The Upper Ottawa Valley locations vary in demographics, delinquents and disorders. Those who cover the Highway 17 corridor handle a lot of car accidents involving those enroute to/from Algonquin Park.   It is a reciprocal agreement whereas the civilian parameds will spend time with the units in training and on FTXs as well.




So this tells me that even though we are trying to get a national standard that is equivallant to civi side, each unit and or region is basically running their own MCSP program.  Here in Gagetown the PCP QL 5 have yet to do a single ride along and the QL 3 are only doing 2 weeks.  Our Ops and training as far as I know (help Medicineman) are only working with in the quide lines from Ottawa so why double standards.
Kirsten


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## Gunner98 (29 Jun 2005)

Our HS CIMIC coordination comes direct from CF H Svcs Gp HQ Rep, it is not the units setting the standard but the HQ.  It is more about what the civ amb services are willing to commit to.  The Renfrew MOU allows for a 2 month break in the summer.


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## Old Ranger (30 Jun 2005)

Our new Director just came from Ottawa, maybe once he gets his feet a little more on the ground he can get the ball rolling.
I'll talk to the Sup who was trying to re-initiate this and get our side MOTIVATED :threat:
It's been a little difficult with upper eschelon having absolutely No idea of what we do...Yup I'm preach'n too the choir 
But it would help to know if Borden Medics want to ride civi???


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## medicineman (30 Jun 2005)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> So this tells me that even though we are trying to get a national standard that is equivallant to civi side, each unit and or region is basically running their own MCSP program.   Here in Gagetown the PCP QL 5 have yet to do a single ride along and the QL 3 are only doing 2 weeks.   Our Ops and training as far as I know (help Medicineman) are only working with in the quide lines from Ottawa so why double standards.
> Kirsten



When I moved into the Ops/Trg cell, I was told that the MCSP money that was available at the moment was only for the QL3 PCP's - ergo, our 3's are being funded to ensure they can register in NB and carry out their MCSP here and Valcartier.  Our 5's benefit from this money for some reason - the one I get told is that their MCSP package hasn't been finalized yet - even though they still need to maintain the same skillset as the 3's have at this time.  One of those Army "if it makes sense we don't do it" kind of things perhaps?

Gunner 98, are the 5's from 2 CMBG getting the funding required from the MCSP budget or unit training budgets?

MM


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## Gunner98 (30 Jun 2005)

Although the emphasis is on QL3s, some QL5 have or will ride-along.  Funding for uniforms, PPE & MTEC etc comes from unit.


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## medicineman (30 Jun 2005)

Thanks - that was what I thought.  Ottawa is penny pinching with us - They have to realize that yes, the 5's have a bit more TI and such, but still need to do the work and get dirty to stay current, AEC or no AEC.  The MCSP monies should be aimed at PCP1's as opposed to QL3's/5's etc, as after all, in that respect, the medics are still at the same level.

My spleen is now smaller 

MM


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## Gunner98 (1 Jul 2005)

The Renfrew experience has been very positive and worth every penny.  Those who go from PCP or PCP bridging on to the civ ambs in Renfrew rave about the experience.  Beats and balances a tour of a BMC or UMS.


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## nsmedicman (1 Nov 2005)

I work as a civi paramedic here in Nova Scotia. The rules have changed in the past few months, but as far as I know, ride-alongs are only available to trained medical professionals, paramedic students, and firefighters who are trained MFRs. If anyone has any questions, you can PM me or contact someone at your local paramedic station.


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## medicineman (1 Nov 2005)

The rules certainly have changed - last I heard, EHS won't allow military medics out on the road with them anymore to do their MCSP because of a lawsuit one of them brought forward.  That in turn is likely to hurt us here in NB, since it looks like EHS might be getting the one provider contract here.  I'd have to say our CIMIC folks are ging to have their hands full on this one - not to mention that lovely MCSP package from hell everyone is getting saddled with will either have to be reworked or have a large TD budget attached to it.

MM


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## nsmedicman (1 Nov 2005)

I am not 100% sure about what the rules are right now (they seem to change on a daily basis), concerning this. I can certainly find out if anyone is interested. I believe that lawsuit appeared from a SAR Tech in Greenwood who was messed up pretty well when two FNGs decided to launch a truck onto its roof.


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## nsmedicman (1 Nov 2005)

Ok.....I actually contacted my boss about this subject. The problem lies with liability. FD MFRs and paramedic students are covered by their respective agency or school, when they ride the trucks. After the incident with the Med Tech from Greenwood (Med Tech....not SAR Tech), ride-alongs for Med Techs are on hold until it can properly be determined who actually covers the Med Tech during their ride. He (my boss) suggested that this might only take an MOU between the Med Tech's CO and Emergency Medical Care (the company that actually operates the system). As for New Brunswick, EMC is designing a new system for the province, but a contract to operate the system will not be awarded for a few months yet. I can't see EMC designing the system for someone else to run it, but you never know. It is a government decision. The system will be loosely based on our system, but will be created for New Brunswick. For Med Techs who might want to arrange ride time in Nova Scotia, contact Roger Mombourquette (Director of Fleet Services for the province). He would be the one who would say yes or no.

roger.mombourquette@emci.ns.ca
(902) 832-8320


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## Marty (1 Nov 2005)

"Ok.....I actually contacted my boss about this subject. The problem lies with liability. FD MFRs and paramedic students are covered by their respective agency or school, when they ride the trucks. After the incident with the Med Tech from Greenwood (Med Tech....not SAR Tech), ride-alongs for Med Techs are on hold until it can properly be determined who actually covers the Med Tech during their ride. He (my boss) suggested that this might only take an MOU between the Med Tech's CO and Emergency Medical Care (the company that actually operates the system). As for New Brunswick, EMC is designing a new system for the province, but a contract to operate the system will not be awarded for a few months yet. I can't see EMC designing the system for someone else to run it, but you never know. It is a government decision. The system will be loosely based on our system, but will be created for New Brunswick. For Med Techs who might want to arrange ride time in Nova Scotia, contact Roger Mombourquette (Director of Fleet Services for the province). He would be the one who would say yes or no."

I believe that there are a few things that could "throw a wrench " into the new system being proposed , first and foremost being EMC not running the show entirely, then there is the issue of the Medics being provincial employees. I could go on and on, but wont :

I work in the Moncton area of NB , if anyone is interested in some ride time here PM me and Ill see what I can do

cheers


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## medicineman (1 Nov 2005)

The one concern I have isn't so much ridealongs, but actual MCSP, which aren't quite the same thing.  In theory (at least in places where I have ridden along) you're there as an observer, though a trained one.  For MCSP, the problem is that the people actually have to run the calls - they are in fact (supposed to be) working as a second or as a third under supervision.  It's not really the same thing to sit back and watch vs getting your hands (and other body parts) dirty.  I was under the impression that the liability issue was dealt with long before this happened, but apparently not.  We were actually discussing this when I was at a 4 Group Ops Conference not long ago - our CIMIC folks were in talking about this and other issues with us.

      I guess this is going to be a big watch and shoot thing - we're being mandated to do stuff before the ink is even scribbled on to paper yet for MOU's.  If nothing else, it'll be good for a laugh.  BTW, thanks for digging around at your end there NS.

MM


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## nsmedicman (1 Nov 2005)

Just so you know.....at least in the area of NS where I work......there are no observers......we don't leave you to sink or swim......but you don't ride a truck and get to watch the action from the background either.

Sorry....but what does MCSP stand for again?


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## Armymedic (1 Nov 2005)

I am not sure of the exact phrasing, but it is along the lines of: maintenance of competency and skills program. 
Not sure what it is, but I know its a pain in our butt getting our people on it and thru all the loopholes they need to do. 
It is the number one complaint that Ptes are not coming into Fd Amb employable. They have to do ride alongs, they have to attend two weeks of training in Valcartier as well as jumping thru a couple other hoops before they can be employed on an ambulance by themselves.



			
				Gunner98 said:
			
		

> The Renfrew experience has been very positive and worth every penny.   Those who go from PCP or PCP bridging on to the civ ambs in Renfrew rave about the experience.   Beats and balances a tour of a BMC or UMS.



The experience has been good for 1 CFH pers. unfortunately we across the street don't seem to be sending as many...perhaps because the majority are gone backfilling UMSs, doing CFMG driven tasks and tours. (yes I am bitchin').


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## Gunner98 (1 Nov 2005)

MCSP - Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program.

CFHS theory:
Throughout Canada a significant number of military clinicians have become integral members of health service agencies, including hospitals, through an exclusive Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program (MCSP). This program hones professional skills through every-day practice and makes a valued contribution to community health care while at the same time, provides an experienced cadre from which to draw when the exigencies of operations demand it. Some Physician Assistants and Medical Technicians are placed in regional trauma facilities or ambulance services, consistent with their equivalency qualifications, in order to rigorously exercise their skills and advance their expertise. Additionally, other Health Service Technicians, such as Medical Laboratory, Operating Room and X-Ray are placed in civilian facilities in their respective fields of practice. While MCSP is a complex program to administer, it has proven to be of enormous value both to the Canadian Forces and to the health care organizations with which we partner. For members of CF Medical and dental teams employed in isolated or practice-limited environments, distributive learning opportunities are also being explored to ensure that MCSP objectives can be pursued.


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## medicineman (2 Nov 2005)

All I can say is it's great in theory, would be better in reality, but it fails to take into consideration that their are units out there that have their people so busy doing their primary jobs that there is no way that they'll be able to keep their primary and secondary tasks fulfilled AND do this.  Forget the fact that all this stuff got sent to use BEFORE all the MOU's were in place for us to work wherever, forget about the need to back fill those people that are out and about.  I'm not sure if I should keep laughing or just write all my counterparts now and just say don't plan on getting any tasks filled for a period of x months while we get this sorted out.  Betting backfill is like pulling hen's teeth, what with no fills secondary to adventure training, cool tasks, people being hidden and just plain burnout of troops.  It isn't going to get much better for awhile either.

Anyway, I think my spleen is back to normalish size now.  Thanks again NS for your info.

MM


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