# Volunteer firefighters in Reg Force (merged)



## PiperDown (19 Sep 2011)

I would like to start a discussion regarding Reg Force members who are volunteer firefighters within their communities.

Now, just to be clear, I believe these members are doing a great service to their communities.  Not all areas can have permanent paid fire services, and without volunteer ones, we would leave communities at risk.

However.... There is a bit of ethical dilemma ( in  my mind anyway.... others may vary) with volunteers responding during regular working hours and receiving honourariums.   I totally agree with these members having full support from their CoC to respond to fire emergencies.  But, I do know that volunteer firefighters are given a ( small ) honourarium when they respond to a call. ( in my area, the honorarium is $50) The honourarium, is not to pay a volunteer for work, it stands more to ( I believe) reimburse personal expenses such as gas,  lost wages etc.   Dilemma ensues when a volunteer accepts said honorarium when , at the same time,  on the military dime.

Now, to avoid any conversations about " we are paid 24/7 and a guy delivering pizza on Friday night is in the same boat"  I would like to discuss responding to calls during "regular working hours " while in military uniform and collecting an honourarium while doing so.

Should members accept the honourarium during regular working hours ?  Or,  would this create a scenario where members would not respond to emergencies?  Are there volunteer firefighters who are strictly volunteer, or are some doing it as a supplement to income ?  

I know that in some areas, volunteers are called upon 3-5 times a week.


***** disclaimer******** 
This is not a bash at those serving members who also provide a much needed service by volunteering as firefighters in their communities.


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## Container (19 Sep 2011)

If they have permission to leave why would it be an ethical dilemma? Furthermore, you answered your own question when you tried to head off anyone from saying that you receive your salary based on 24hrs a day. That is the answer. Its no more an ethical dilemma than when people are given Friday afternoon off or have sports on a certain day of the month.

Its done in the open with permission- and its to fight fires in your community for gods sake.
So they got 50 bucks so what? (which is the HIGHEST Honorarium I have ever heard of).

It sure sounds like a sneaky bash to me no matter how many times you say it isn't so.


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## krustyrl (19 Sep 2011)

I think the Op was looking for an answer. not a be answered in a fashion that appears that you jumped down his throat. 
Life's too short for that stuff ......    :2c:


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## Container (19 Sep 2011)

Looking for an "ethical" answer? There isnt an unethical behavior to address. An honorarium is a taxable benefit that is used to offset the cost associated with volunteering. 

It isnt a wage- and they aren't double dipping if they have their CO's permission. 

The poster has created an "ethical dilemma" by ignoring the fact that you are paid 24/7 for your services and serve in the capacity required. Which means sometimes you have to go sleep in a ditch and some days you get off early. It also means that if command feels you can slip out to fight a fire its fine.

You aren't paid an hourly wage so it isnt double dipping. Its a service to the community. And its supported by the management. Where is there an ethical quandary?

How does getting their costs offset run contrary to the profession of arms ethical conduct?

I am suspicious of anybody's motivation when trying to justify reducing a volunteers benefits.


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## mariomike (19 Sep 2011)

The amount of the honorarium ( see page 24 ) depends on the municipality you volunteer for.
eg: Collective Agreement between THE CITY OF HAMILTON And GREATER HAMILTON VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS ASSOCIATION:
http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/3EF302D1-5D1A-4BCD-B9C6-D2A54F965939/0/GHVFFA0811.pdf

If you wish to promote from part-time employee ( volunteer ) to full-time firefighter:
"Now then, in the event the Employer hires additional full-time firefighters within the bargaining unit of the Hamilton Professional Firefighters Association, the parties recognize that volunteer firefighters covered by the Collective Agreement will be viewed as internal city candidates."

The union is pushing this hard in Ontario: "The Send Firefighters Campaign is being launched as municipalities across Ontario begin their budget review process":
http://sendfirefighters.ca/
This could have a major impact on smaller communities that rely heavily on "vollies".


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Sep 2011)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> . . . . . . . There is a bit of ethical dilemma . . . . . . .



If you're wanting to engage in a discussion of the ethics surrounding this topic, perhaps you should start with one of the FAQs about conflict of interest at the Defence Ethics Programme site.

http://www.dep-ped.forces.gc.ca/coi-ci/faq-qfp/index-eng.aspx#quest9


> 2.2 As a full time DND employee or CF member, am I allowed to serve as a volunteer firefighter for my municipality?
> 
> You may serve as a volunteer firefighter *so long as you engage in your activities outside your working hours at DND or the CF* - unless special arrangements have been made between the municipality and your unit - and so long as you do not use DND or CF premises, equipment or material. The outside activity must not in any way undermine the exercise of your official responsibilities and duties, and *you are not permitted to respond to a fire alarm in your military uniform*.
> 
> If you are a CF member you must obtain authorization from your commanding officer before becoming a volunteer firefighter.


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## PiperDown (19 Sep 2011)

Obviously not an ethical dilemma to you Container.  I do respect that each person will differ in their personal view.
I do not however, appreciate your "down your throat" connontation in your reply.  Something this forum is seeing more and more of unfortunatly.

I had this conversation with one of my troops who wants to volunteer, but is concerned with accepting any sort of compensation while on duty.  ( duty... once again for Containers benefit, being normal working hours)


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Sep 2011)

Then have him/her donate it to one of the "CF approved" charities.


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## cupper (19 Sep 2011)

I don't see an issue with it, especially when some bases have reciprocal agreements with local civilian jurisdictions to provide assistance when necessary. I know that was the case when I was working in Cornwallis, and there were some who served as volunteers in the neighboring VFD's.


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## X Royal (19 Sep 2011)

The term "volunteer firefighter" means many things depending on where you are.
Around where I live IMO there are no "volunteer firefighters"  as they are paid to respond to calls. They are part-time employees. 
Pay levels vary department to department but they are paid to respond.
If truly volunteers I would have another view point. $50 to respond is far above gas costs so IMO it represents pay for services rendered. Many around here get much more than that depending on time required for the call.
Don't get me wrong as I do respect the local firefighters for the services they do, but I don't consider them volunteers in the true sense of the word.
By using the term "volunteer firefighter" many of these so called volunteers play on the sympathy of the local residents which generally do not realize that they are actually paid for services rendered.
To the true volunteers in other area's I believe they are beyond reproach.


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## Old Sweat (19 Sep 2011)

I asked my neighnor who is a long serving volunteer fire fighter about this. He told me that it was to cover stuff like gas, but more importantly it also covered stuff like dry cleaning of whatever you were wearing when the call came. He added that it took a lot of cleaning to get the smoke out of the civvies you had on when you arrived on the scene and pulled the rest of the gear on over it.


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## X Royal (19 Sep 2011)

Old Sweat I've never seen anyone respond to a call in clothing below their bunker gear that would require dry cleaning. Not saying it doesn't ever happen but sure not a common occurrence.
Did you ask your neighbor what the actual compensation was & if he wore clothing actually requiring dry cleaning?
Also what percentage of their calls actually involved a fire & smoke?
In this area most calls actually don't involve fires but car accidents & medical assists.


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## mariomike (20 Sep 2011)

X Royal said:
			
		

> The term "volunteer firefighter" means many things depending on where you are.
> Around where I live IMO there are no "volunteer firefighters"  as they are paid to respond to calls. They are part-time employees.
> Pay levels vary department to department but they are paid to respond.
> If truly volunteers I would have another view point. $50 to respond is far above gas costs so IMO it represents pay for services rendered. Many around here get much more than that depending on time required for the call.
> ...



Article ( 2004 ) on the subject on page 5, if interested:
http://www.cbupub.com/intrepid/vol12_no3/vol12_no3.pdf
"It is not my intent to impugn all ‘volunteer’ fire fighters across the province as I know there are many who still fulfill this role with that understanding and they are to be commended."


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## Towards_the_gap (20 Sep 2011)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> Obviously not an ethical dilemma to you Container.  I do respect that each person will differ in their personal view.
> I do not however, appreciate your "down your throat" connontation in your reply.  Something this forum is seeing more and more of unfortunatly.
> 
> I had this conversation with one of my troops who wants to volunteer, but is concerned with accepting any sort of compensation while on duty.  ( duty... once again for Containers benefit, being normal working hours)



I will happily solve your dudes ethical dilemma.....DO NOT RESPOND when on duty (military). Only when he is finished work for the day. I say this as a serving soldier and volunteer fire fighter. I leave my pager at home when I go to work, A) because it does not work that far out from our repeater tower anyways and I wouldn't get the call, and B) the army is my primary employer. My department only expects that you respond when you can. Perhaps his department keeps persons 'on call'/duty, however I'm sure that if he were to explain to his Chief that the military must come first, the Chief would understand.

I do not see why this is such a big issue.


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## Old Sweat (20 Sep 2011)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Old Sweat I've never seen anyone respond to a call in clothing below their bunker gear that would require dry cleaning. Not saying it doesn't ever happen but sure not a common occurrence.
> Did you ask your neighbor what the actual compensation was & if he wore clothing actually requiring dry cleaning?
> Also what percentage of their calls actually involved a fire & smoke?
> In this area most calls actually don't involve fires but car accidents & medical assists.


He did tell me that on occasion clothing was smoke damaged to the extent that no amount of cleaning would remove the odour. Now, he was a volunteer for decades and conditions change. In his opinion the original compensation did not cover all the costs, but that has improved. There apparently is an annual ceiling in place in our local department.

I did not ask the other questions, but I would agree that the majority of calls now seem to be accident or spill related. We are in a semi-rural area with a major 400-series highway running through it, so response to serious traffic accidents comes with the turf.


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## ottawa613 (21 Oct 2011)

Hello all,

Looking to bounce some ideas off of current volunteer firefighters who are reg force. I have bumped into a snag. This being the issue that I have been granted permission so long as I am not volunteering 8 hours prior to reporting for duty. As well as I need to demonstrate where the onus of liability will fall if I was to get injured while on call.

Any and all help(posted or private) would be greatly appreciated!

Regards,


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## mariomike (21 Oct 2011)

ottawa613 said:
			
		

> Looking to bounce some ideas off of current volunteer firefighters who are reg force.



This may help.
"I would like to start a discussion regarding Reg Force members who are volunteer firefighters within their communities.":
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/102618.0



			
				ottawa613 said:
			
		

> As well as I need to demonstrate where the onus of liability will fall if I was to get injured while on call.



Topic: Waiver to volunteer?:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/88373.0
"I recently started volunteering with a local Ground SAR team. When I joined, they told me that I needed to fill out a form advising DND that I was doing so, which I was told waives some of my pension rights if I injure myself while out working with them. They explained that its the same as what CF members who are volunteer firefighters have to fill out."

Highlight mine - mm.

Ottawa613, you may find this of interest:
Ontario: "WSIB policy revised to maintain volunteer fire fighter coverage":
 http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/1346/213/


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## Pusser (21 Oct 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> This may help.
> "I would like to start a discussion regarding Reg Force members who are volunteer firefighters within their communities.":
> http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/102618.0
> 
> ...



As a Regular member of the CF, all your medical requirements are provided, so if you're injured as a volunteer firefighter, you're covered for that.  However, being injured as a volunteer firefighter could lead to being released from the CF.  Your release article can affect whether your pension is indexed right away or whether you receive full vice half severance pay.  Other than that though, your CFSA benefits (the pension plan you pay into) are based on years of service and salary, period.  The only thing to be really concerned about would be if you are released because of an injury and you haven't been a CF member for very long, your CFSA benefits aren't worth much.   What you won't be entitled to would be any kind of federal disability pension or payout because any injury you would suffer would not be a result of military service.

Keep in mind that the situation I've described is the same regardless of what *off-duty *  activity you're engaged in in Canada, be it volunteer firefighting, bird-watching or competitive tiddlywinks.  In fact, being released for medical reasons is generally more lucrative than a voluntary release, especially if you have not completed a full career.


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## MedCorps (21 Oct 2011)

You also should have a quick look at QR&O 19.42 - Civil Employment. 


(1) Subject to paragraph (3), no officer or non-commissioned member on full-time service shall engage in any civil employment or undertaking that in the opinion of the member’s commanding officer:

(a) is or is likely to be detrimental to the interests of the Canadian Forces.

This is pretty broad, and I do not think that volunteer FF is a detrimental interest, but in the end it is your COs call. 

There is other stuff in there. At one time I was sure that it indicated you could not belong to an auxiliary police force or emergency management organization, but I no longer see it (or can find it) so you are safe there. 

Good luck, 

MC


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## mariomike (21 Oct 2011)

I assume the original poster, and others, have seen this. In case not...

"As a full time DND employee or CF member, am I allowed to serve as a volunteer firefighter for my municipality?":
http://www.ethics.forces.gc.ca/coi-ci/faq-qfp/index-eng.aspx#quest9


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## MedCorps (21 Oct 2011)

Also take a look at CFAO 19-7 -- CIVIL EMPLOYMENT -MILITARY PERSONNEL

Unless the approval of NDHQ is obtained, no member on full-time service shall be employed by or serve as a member or auxiliary member of:

   1. the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;
   2. a provincial or municipal police force or any other constabulary force; or
   3. a provincial or municipal emergency planning organization.

There has been confusion in the past if a VFD is a municipal emergency planning organization.

Take a read.  Knowledge is power. 

Cheers, 

MC


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## mariomike (21 Oct 2011)

"3. a provincial or municipal emergency planning organization."

The Offices of Emergency Management OEM ( provincial and municipal ) work closely with fire and EMS, but are independant.

The CF link in reply #4 seems specific to vollies.


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## ff149 (21 Oct 2011)

There is a form to fill out for volunteering as a fire fighter. Problem is not too many people are aware of it. I'll try and post a link when I go back to work. It is in RAMM Chapter 10 (this is the fire service program). It is a form basically stating that if you are injured and have to be medically released from the military you are aware that you may not be covered under VA. You sign it and it goes up to your CO. As far as I am aware it is not really a form for approval, more along the lines of a disclaimer.


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## ottawa613 (24 Oct 2011)

Thanks all for the show of support! I'm trying to look into the waiver, If anyone finds a link before i do, mind posting it for the masses to find in the future?

Also, does anyone know anything about the mandatory 8 hours of rest directly prior to duty?

Thanks again everyone!


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## ff149 (24 Oct 2011)

I'm back at work later this week and will try to post a link then.  The main part is that whatever fire department you volunteer with should have enough insurance that if something were to happen you would be covered by them if not by Veterans. I do not know anything about an 8 hour of rest prior to work. I know that that applies to certain jobs. It could also be a CO's policy. I know for us you are expected to show up to work ready and able to work for your whole shift.


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2011)

ottawa613 said:
			
		

> Also, does anyone know anything about the mandatory 8 hours of rest directly prior to duty?



Some safety sensitive occupations "must have a minimum of eight hours off between scheduled shifts in order
to provide for an adequate rest period."


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