# Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?



## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift. We are also being told now (was find for a long time up until now) that short, special and holiday leave is now the same. 2 days for 1 day off. We have a bunch of guys going on courses and deployments looking to get the two special days before hand and the memos are getting kicked back now stating we don’t get two days only one because of this rule.

I have searched through the leave policy manual and had no luck. Al of the clerks I have talked to (albeit they are all 3s) have no idea so before I went higher I’d like to ask around and see if there is any documentation on this already.


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift.





			
				danteh said:
			
		

> To take leave on a 24 hour shift requires two annual because you are working what the military classifies as two work periods.





			
				ff149 said:
			
		

> The main reason that many halls do not want to go to 24 hour shifts as due to leave requirements. Working 24 hour shifts as was mentioned you only work 7 days a month, now most people have 25 days leave, multiply it by the number of people on shift and it gets difficult for everyone to get their leave in.





			
				ff149 said:
			
		

> Danteh,
> 
> I served, as a firefighter at Greenwood, Shearwater and Borden prior to getting out. Different bases had different ideas about the 24 hour shift, some places only needed one day leave because your work day is 24 hours.


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

Where is the documentation that supports this? Because all I have found is an annual day is for one work day. Some people have 9-5 work days some have 12 hour work days and some have 24 hour work days. The 9-5 and 12 hour work day guys get 1 for 1. Even when I worked night shifts which was 1630 until 0730 the next morning we got 1 for 1.


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## Strike (24 Oct 2017)

Section 2.2 Reckoning Time
2.2.01 Reckoning time
Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
Weekends, designated and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers’ scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF 100), shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days; although, such days will normally form part of the leave period.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/caf-community-benefits/cflpm.pdf

So, if your shift ends at 0700 and you have 3 days off before your next shift that is not considered leave. It's a non-working day.  If you are off at 0700, are supposed to have 24 hours off before coming back to work, but ask for leave it would not start until midnight of that next date and end at midnight.  That day that you finish work is not to be counted as a leave day as you would be getting it off anyway.


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2017)

For reference to the discussion,

Annual Leave & Shift working  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/89853.0
OP: "With regard with annual leave reckonning time."

See also,

Reckoning Time
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22Reckoning+Time%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22Reckoning+Time%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.40043.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.WBqsiWGUCiU


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

Strike said:
			
		

> Section 2.2 Reckoning Time
> 2.2.01 Reckoning time
> Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
> Weekends, designated and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers’ scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF 100), shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days; although, such days will normally form part of the leave period.
> ...



So your saying if I am working 24 hours Monday and Wednesday and I wanted to take leave, I wouldn't include Thursday as a working day because I am off at 0700 anyways?


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## Strike (24 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> So your saying if I am working 24 hours Monday and Wednesday and I wanted to take leave, I wouldn't include Thursday as a working day because I am off at 0700 anyways?



According to the leave manual, that would be correct, because you wouldn't be working for that time period anyway.


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

Strike said:
			
		

> According to the leave manual, that would be correct, because you wouldn't be working for that time period anyway.



So we are getting screwed.

What would you suggest being the best way to bring this up? Obviously through my CoC but I have never dealt with something like this.

Or would it be wise to try and talk with the chief clerk at the OR to get a solid answer to this?


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## McG (24 Oct 2017)

You can try writing a memo that references the applicable policy.


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts





			
				danteh said:
			
		

> So we are getting screwed.



Would you be more / less / the same "screwed" if you worked 10/14-hour shifts? 

( Or < shudder > 8-hour shifts? )


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Would you be more / less / the same "screwed" if you worked 10/14-hour shifts?
> 
> ( Or < shudder > 8-hour shifts? )



When we used to work 13 hour night shifts 1630 - 0730 it would be one for one

What I think they are doing is calling the 0000-0730 during the morning we are done a scheduled working day because according to the LPM the definition of a working day is "a day of paid service on which an officer or non-commissioned member is regularly scheduled to perform duty." Technically we are scheduled to perform duty from midnight until we leave at 0730. If this is the case and they classify the morning of the day off a working day, wouldn't that mean we are technically working 96 hours straight according to them? Because we work the 24 hour shift, the next morning is still a working day, then 24 the next day, and another working day after?

What I don't understand is why that wasn't applicable when we were doing 13 hour night shifts still overnight.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

Couple of small points.

The day you come off shift at 0730, it can't be a Leave day.  You're on duty until 0730.  Can't be "on leave" and "on duty" at the same time.

Ref whether taking one x 24 hour shift off...I know you're seeing it as "1 day", but in effect, it would be 2 calendar days, no?  You can't be on leave from "0730" in the morning.  So for you to take *1 shift* off, you're actually away for 2 calendar/duty days.  If you're shift started at 0730 Monday and ended 0730 Tuesday, that shift actually covers 2 calendar/duty days (Monday shift portion 0730-2359, Tuesday shift portion 0000-0730).  Your leave pass would have to have 2 days on it, wouldn't it?

That's the "book" perspective, IMO.

There is also more direction in the LPM ref shift workers, though.  Not sure if you've noticed this.

1.1.06 Calendar Days

Calendar days means days from the calendar.


1.1.22 Shift Worker

A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days. 

1.1.24 Working Day

Working day means a day of paid service on which an officer or non-commissioned member is regularly scheduled to perform duty

Section 2.8 Shift Work

2.8.01 Scheduling

The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays.  Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless.  In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off *is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week*.

In order to provide members with rest time associated with weekends and statutory holidays, care must be exercised to ensure the equivalent time off is given at regular intervals and not accumulated over long periods of time.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.

2.8.02 Reckoning Time also gives more info ref what is an Annual and what is a NWD.


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Couple of small points.
> 
> The day you come off shift at 0730, it can't be a Leave day.  You're on duty until 0730.  Can't be "on leave" and "on duty" at the same time.
> 
> ...



You are completely correct and I would agree with you and move on but the precedent was set when we used to work 13 hour shifts from 1630-0730 the next morning and to take that shift off would only require one leave day even tho it also spanned two calendar days. Like I said above what I believe has happened as per the LPM is that our CO changed the policy (which he is allowed) and designated the morning that we get off as a working day thus it requires an annual leave day to take that day off because we are working 0000-0730 that morning. Unfortunately if that is the case it is also affecting short and special leave for people. I have some feelers out to some switched on clerks and hopefully tomorrow I can get an answer and if not I will get a sitdown with my OC and get an answer. I'm at the point now where "Because if we did one for one you guys would have to much time off" as an answer.

As for your edit;

"When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement."

This has already been figured out by other members of our unit. We are working more and getting less time off compared to the normal working days of members.

Also to counter that you have 3.1.02 "Annual leave does not have to be earned before it is used; however, over expenditures of annual leave shall be recovered." Which with the calculations done by many members there are no over expenditures. I personally however have not figured that out myself but I do trust the various other members that have done it. The only case of that would be people taking leave outside their entitlement.

"Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week."

Using this example and changing (4) 12-hour shift days to (2) 24-hour shift days you get this;

Example:A member who works two (2) 24-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday and Wednesday), earns a five-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week.

However because I believe they are classifying the mornings we get off as working days we are only getting a four-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling six days.

And if you want to go even further by the book if they are classifying the mornings off as working days we are "technically" working four shifts in a row.


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## McG (24 Oct 2017)

Put in a memo and point to the reference.  Ask your chain of command to explain what it is doing.  If you are unhappy with the answer, submit a grievance.  If your unit absolutely believes it is correctly applying the policy, then the IA will be the policy owner.  Maybe you found an exception for which the policy as written does not function; “they” (in Ottawa) will be required to address the matter.

Nobody else in the CAF needs to expend two days of leave to get twenty four hours off.  The fact that a shift ends the subsequent calandar day is irrelevant - that is a scheduling issue.  

I have had troops come off leave during exercises.  I don’t expect them to appear in the field at mid night.  They report for duty at the next regular morning start time (maybe a few hours earlier) and join us sometime in the next few hours.


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## dapaterson (24 Oct 2017)

The challenge is in translating unusual working hours into days.  But here's one potential way to look at it:


A normal working year is 2087.5 hours - at least, that's the figure used when doing leave cash out calculations.  I'm assuming your schedule is something like 24 on 24 off 24 on 120 off, or, in other words, working two in eight.  So, your work year (before leave) would be  365 x (2/8) x 24, or 2190 hours.

"Normal" leave of 25 days would be 25 x 8 working hours, or 200 working hours.  In your case, if "one day of leave equals 24 working hours", you'd be getting 25 x 24 working hours, or 600 working hours.


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The challenge is in translating unusual working hours into days.  But here's one potential way to look at it:
> 
> 
> A normal working year is 2087.5 hours - at least, that's the figure used when doing leave cash out calculations.  I'm assuming your schedule is something like 24 on 24 off 24 on 120 off, or, in other words, working two in eight.  So, your work year (before leave) would be  365 x (2/8) x 24, or 2190 hours.
> ...



Sorry this really confused me. 

In your case, if "one day of leave equals 24 working hours", you'd be getting 25 x 24 working hours, or 600 working hours."

Are you saying we are getting 400 more working hours off a year compared to "normal" working members?


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> You are completely correct and I would agree with you and move on but the precedent was set when we used to work 13 hour shifts from 1630-0730 the next morning and to take that shift off would only require one leave day even tho it also spanned two calendar days. Like I said above what I believe has happened as per the LPM is that our CO changed the policy (which he is allowed) and designated the morning that we get off as a working day thus it requires an annual leave day to take that day off because we are working 0000-0730 that morning. Unfortunately if that is the case it is also affecting short and special leave for people.



I just wanted to say, I didn't say I *agree* with your units interpretation/implementation of the CAF policy, however, was attempting to provide one view from a "black/white" perspective; i.e. 1 working day covers 2 calendar days, so to take 1 x 24 hr shift off could be viewed as 2 x Ann days.  I've been on the losing end of similar views WRT NWDS for 'on call weekends', getting 1 NWD for being away on a weekend that was followed by a Designated Holiday, things like that.  

I think, however, a strong policy statement that adds considerably to your case/contention to your CofC is this:

Section 2.8 Shift Work

2.8.01 Scheduling

The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays.  Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless.  In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week.

I don't agree with the 2 for 1 for Special Leave for pre-course admin.  I'd be interested to know the opinion of your Unit CWO on these issues.


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## dapaterson (24 Oct 2017)

I'm saying that it's a complex situation - I did a 30 second piece of math with many assumptions about shifts & timing that may or may not be accurate.  You are in an unusual situation, and thus the way things get managed will be unusual, since the military tends to think in terms of "days" and not "hours", when "hours" is an easier frame of reference for your kind of  shift work.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

MCG said:
			
		

> Nobody else in the CAF needs to expend two days of leave to get twenty four hours off.  The fact that a shift ends the subsequent calandar day is irrelevant - that is a scheduling issue.



This part;  I wish the LPM clearly said "a working day doesn't necessarily have to coincide with a calendar day" in later parts (Section 2 specifically) after the def's in Sect 1.  Or define/use 'duty day', or something.

I've routinely done Standby beginning at 1600 on a Friday and ending at 0800 on a Monday.  Is that 4 days of duty, 2.5 days...arguments can be made for either opinion.


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This part;  I wish the LPM clearly said "a working day doesn't necessarily have to coincide with a calendar day" in later parts (Section 2 specifically) after the def's in Sect 1.  Or define/use 'duty day', or something.
> 
> I've routinely done Standby beginning at 1600 on a Friday and ending at 0800 on a Monday.  Is that 4 days of duty, 2.5 days...arguments can be made for either opinion.



Ya only sick leave and compassionate leave is reckoned in calendar days. Everything else is working days.

The biggest issue is it was only effecting annual leave. Guys didn't like it but we dealt with it. It is now effecting short and special leave now to. Guys are coming back from courses like PLQ or their 5's, multiple month long taskings etc and trying to get the two special before and after and they are getting denied saying they only get one before and after because of this. And for short we have guys that have come back from two week long exercises and asking for two short days and only getting one (if that) most are getting denied now without reasons given.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

So if the MO puts you on 30 days sick leave, does the unit see that as "15 days"?   :stirpot:


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So if the MO puts you on 30 days sick leave, does the unit see that as "15 days"?   :stirpot:



No. Sick leave is calendar days not working days. If they tried that there would be a whole new storm coming.


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## ballz (24 Oct 2017)

I'd be curious to see what your actual shift schedule for a normal cycle looks like. If you could provide that, it would probably help.


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## danteh (24 Oct 2017)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'd be curious to see what your actual shift schedule for a normal cycle looks like. If you could provide that, it would probably help.



Its quite simple. 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off. We work 0730-0730. Pretty much eight 24 hour shifts a month.


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## jollyjacktar (24 Oct 2017)

Sounds like day workers being pissy to me.  Saw some of that shit when l was a shift worker.  Ironically, when my day worker bosses were shift workers they didn't have an issue taking leave like a shift worker.  I worked for some dicks back in the day.


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## ballz (24 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> Its quiet simple. 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off. We work 0730-0730. Pretty much eight 24 hour shifts a month.



So which days are "Weekend (Shiftworker)" exactly? That's important.

Looks like to me it's your 4 working days ( 0730 start on Monday, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 0730 off on Thursday) and then 5 Weekend (Shift Worker), is that right?


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

ballz said:
			
		

> So which days are "Weekend (Shiftworker)" exactly? That's important.
> 
> Looks like to me it's your 4 working days ( 0730 start on Monday, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 0730 off on Thursday) and then 5 Weekend (Shift Worker), is that right?



And...

Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.

When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, this leave must be granted based on a normal working week (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.

Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, *where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday*) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.


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## garb811 (24 Oct 2017)

Pretty simple fix, adjust it so you work midnight to midnight.  Problem solved: 1 x 24 hr day of leave = 1 x 24 hr shift off.  But...I'm sure nobody would like that solution.

It's interesting that someone has approved this.  You can't tell me you are actually "working" a 24 hour shift in that you are awake and alert throughout that 24 hour period. How much of that time are you actually doing what would be considered "work" such as responding to an actual call, maintenance of equipment, professional development, running training scenarios etc, how much time is spent being awake on standby and how much is being spent asleep and on standby?

Edit to add:  My point with the last bit being...be careful what you wish for.  It could very well end up with people taking a very in depth and close look at what is actually going on resulting in some imposed changes to everything, not just the way the leave policy is being applied.


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## ballz (24 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And...
> 
> Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.
> 
> ...



I'm trying to keep an open mind before stating how I think the policy should be applied on this.... but yeah... I was getting there. It looks to me like if you want to take those 2x 24 hr shifts off, you should be taking 7 annual + 2 weekend.... but I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.


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## mariomike (25 Oct 2017)

Regarding CAF Firefighter shift schedules,

Consideration of 5 Canadian Forces Fire Fighter Shift Schedules
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_Miller35/publication/264877413_Consideration_of_5_Canadian_Forces_Fire_Fighter_Shift_Schedules/links/540da8e20cf2df04e755e5b0/Consideration-of-5-Canadian-Forces-Fire-Fighter-Shift-Schedules.pdf


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## garb811 (25 Oct 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding CAF Firefighter shift schedules,
> 
> Consideration of 5 Canadian Forces Fire Fighter Shift Schedules
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_Miller35/publication/264877413_Consideration_of_5_Canadian_Forces_Fire_Fighter_Shift_Schedules/links/540da8e20cf2df04e755e5b0/Consideration-of-5-Canadian-Forces-Fire-Fighter-Shift-Schedules.pdf


Interesting, thanks.


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## mariomike (25 Oct 2017)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Interesting, thanks.



You are welcome.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Oct 2017)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Pretty simple fix, adjust it so you work midnight to midnight.  Problem solved: 1 x 24 hr day of leave = 1 x 24 hr shift off.  But...I'm sure nobody would like that solution.
> 
> It's interesting that someone has approved this.  You can't tell me you are actually "working" a 24 hour shift in that you are awake and alert throughout that 24 hour period. How much of that time are you actually doing what would be considered "work" such as responding to an actual call, maintenance of equipment, professional development, running training scenarios etc, how much time is spent being awake on standby and how much is being spent asleep and on standby?
> 
> Edit to add:  My point with the last bit being...be careful what you wish for.  It could very well end up with people taking a very in depth and close look at what is actually going on resulting in some imposed changes to everything, not just the way the leave policy is being applied.



What you do during your work hours is irrelevant.  You are still physically at work and liable to be utilized.  You cannot be on leave.  Same thing if you are on standby at home, like the SAR folks do.

I have done a bunch of thise shifts, 24 hours straight at work, spending the night at work, on standby to be launched.  We were encouraged/obligated to rest in cass we were launched at 2AM for a 3-4 hour flight: you need to be rested to safely and effectively do this.  Same thing for firefighters.  National and local refugulation supported the rest.  FWIW, a Class A reservist that did one of thise shifts was paid 2 full days (the day he got in for, using the OP's number, 17 hours and the second day for 7 hours.  

Having said that, I never really cared to account my leave around that; I would take annual leave starting the day I got out.  I always end up with too much leave at the end of the year (with all the Holidays leave, short leave, half day here and there)


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## QV (25 Oct 2017)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Pretty simple fix, adjust it so you *work midnight to midnight.*  Problem solved: 1 x 24 hr day of leave = 1 x 24 hr shift off.  But...*I'm sure nobody would like that solution.*
> 
> It's interesting that someone has approved this.  You *can't tell me you are actually "working" a 24 hour shift in that you are awake and alert throughout that 24 hour period. How much of that time are you actually doing what would be considered "work" such as responding to an actual call, maintenance of equipment, professional development, running training scenarios etc, how much time is spent being awake on standby and how much is being spent asleep and on standby?*
> 
> Edit to add:  My point with the last bit being...*be careful what you wish for*.  It could very well end up with people taking a very in depth and close look at what is actually going on resulting in some imposed changes to everything, not just the way the leave policy is being applied.



Lol....ffs you can’t be serious.


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## mariomike (25 Oct 2017)

Any firehouse I have been in has beds. 

And a BBQ!


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## captloadie (25 Oct 2017)

The OP, I don't believe, is providing all the info. Perhaps he is leaving out the fact the individuals being "screwed" are perhaps in fact asking to get the following:
5 x shift days off
1 x special to cover 24hr shift
1 x day shift day off
1x special to cover 24hr shift
5x days shift days off
For a total of 13 days off for the cost of 2 x special. The same would be requested when short leave applies.


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## mariomike (25 Oct 2017)

Speaking of 24-hour shifts, how do CAF Firefighters like them? 

In the city I live, our Firefighters voted to switch from 10/14 ( 10-hour day and 14-hour night ) to 24-hour shifts about six years ago.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Oct 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Speaking of 24-hour shifts, how do CAF Firefighters like them?
> 
> In the city I live, our Firefighters voted to switch from 10/14 to 24-hour shifts about six years ago.



The DND fire hall (civilian employees) that I the most recent contact seemed to love it. They worked 7-8 shifts per month, before applying leave. If they covered a shift for someone on an another platoon, it was overtime. The rest of the month was theirs.


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## mariomike (25 Oct 2017)

Do CAF or DND Firefighters work the four-platoon system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Four-platoon_schedules


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## danteh (25 Oct 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Do CAF or DND Firefighters work the four-platoon system?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Four-platoon_schedules



Yes.

I asked talked with my acting CWO today (actual one is on a tasking) and basically got told to let it go.

So now I am asking this;

Can I put in a memo asking for both short and special leave at the same time? I am going on 2 month tasking and I would normally just ask for 2 special before and after but cause I can only get 1 can I also ask for 1 short before and after? I meet the criteria on being able to ask for both.


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## PuckChaser (25 Oct 2017)

You can ask for 2 short per month as much as you want. While there's no rule about short and special on the same leave pass, I would have your special leave (relocation prior to course) on a different leave pass as that is an entitlement, and the short leave is a request that can be denied. Will save you from having to redo the leave pass if the short is denied.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> I asked talked with my acting CWO today (actual one is on a tasking) and basically got told to let it go.



Not at all surprised.



> So now I am asking this;
> 
> Can I put in a memo asking for both short and special leave at the same time? I am going on 2 month tasking and I would normally just ask for 2 special before and after but cause I can only get 1 can I also ask for 1 short before and after? I meet the criteria on being able to ask for both.



You can ask, but if they are being *the way they are* about leave, do you expect short in lieu of the Special?

I've posted the ref above that states "leave shall be given as it is for uncompressed work week folks".  

Special leave (Relocation) for a 2 month tasking is covered under Section 5.10 Special Leave (Relocation).

_ "In addition, Special Leave (Relocation) may also be granted, at the discretion of the home unit CO, for members who are away from their home unit on duty for operations/training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada.

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.
_
Again, not saying I agree with how your unit is administering leave...just trying to point out policy that can help you decide if this is a hill worth taking and dying for.  Is part of the issue your unit isn't fully manned by any chance??  And when someone takes leave or tasked away from the unit, it is challenging to meet of the taskings that need to happen 'at home'...keeping shifts full, etc.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> special leave (relocation prior to course) on a different leave pass as that is an entitlement



Not quite...personally, I've never had Special leave for a course denied, but I've had it limited because of op tempo...


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Not quite...personally, I've never had Special leave for a course denied, but I've had it limited because of op tempo...



I don't have the leave manual handy, but I'm pretty sure operational reasons are the only way a CO can deny it (the special leave).


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2017)

Ref my reply a couple of posts up.  Also notable is the wording "maximum # of days" in the tables in Annex B of Chap 5 and the lack of the word shall.  But, below is the entire portion of Chap 5 (we're both correct...depending on the details of the tasking...attach posted is treated differently than TD, for example).

5.10.04 Withholding or Limiting Leave

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a compulsory relocation on posting or attached-posting may be denied, withheld or limited only because of exigencies of the service such as time constraints in the event of a rapid deployment or operational reasons beyond the control of the CO. The authority that withholds or limits Special Leave (Relocation) in these situations shall be no lower than the Formation Commander or, in consideration of deployments to an international operation overseas, the force employing operational commander.

Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.


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## ballz (25 Oct 2017)

Admittedly, the leave manual is poorly designed to deal with shift-work, it's too bad the annual leave entitlement couldn't be flexible which would make all of this more simple.

But... This whole 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off... quite frankly, is so jammy I can't even see how it meets the spirit of so many days of Weekend (Shiftworker) and if it were ever scrutinized, I don't believe would be very defend-able. This is 5 days off for every 48 hours of work.

By the book, if you want to take those 2x 24 hour shifts off, you should be taking 7 annual and 2 weekend. There is a very good reason for this... if you only have to take 2 annual to get those 24 hours off, that means you take 4 annual to get 9 days off. Or in other words, you could use 25 annual to get 55 days off of work. There is a reason the leave manual states



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Section 2.8 Shift Work, 2.8.01 Scheduling - 3rd para.
> 
> When working on a compressed schedule, time off must be earned in order to be taken (i.e. four days of work on a compressed schedule for three days off in a week). When a member requests annual leave, *this leave must be granted based on a normal working week* (i.e. not compressed) in order to ensure a member is not granted more than the allotted annual leave entitlement.
> 
> Example:A member who works four (4) 12-hour shift days in a scheduled work week (Monday to Thursday), earns a three-day long weekend (time off, Friday to Sunday), totalling seven days in a week. The member then takes a week of leave using five annual days (Monday to Friday, *where each day counts as a normal uncompressed workday*) plus two weekend days, totalling seven days.



Weekend (Shiftworker), unlike annual, must be earned. In other words, you need to do your 24 on, 24 off, 24 on... to get those Weekend (Shiftworker) days. This is for pretty obvious reasons.

And you want to use 1x annual to get out of 1x 24 hr shift? Someone with 25 annual could literally take off 112 days straight.


I'm very surprised that people think his CoC is being arseholes... I think they are being too generous even at 2 annual for 1x 24 hr shift. Like I said, if you want a cycle off (so 9 days total), it should require 7 annual and 2 weekend, as per the leave manual.


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## danteh (25 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You can ask, but if they are being *the way they are* about leave, do you expect short in lieu of the Special?



Well I am trying to figure it out because I am going on a tasking for 44 days, over two stat holidays (Xmas and Boxing Day) and I am having issues getting days off for it. As of right now I am working 24, waking up driving to the airport to start the task. When I am done I fly back and than start work the next morning. All I have been asking for is two days off before and after and getting shut down.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2017)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm very surprised that people think his CoC is being arseholes...





			
				danteh said:
			
		

> I am currently a shift working working 24 hour shifts (7am-7am) and we are being told that for us to take leave it requires two annual leave days to take off a single shift. We are also being told now (was find for a long time up until now) that short, special and holiday leave is now the same. 2 days for 1 day 24 hour shift off.



This part, makes sense to me because each mbr would have to take leave for a 0730-2359 timeframe and a 0000-0730 timeframe.  That's 2 calendar days/working days during 1 x 24 hour shift.



> We have a bunch of guys going on courses and deployments looking to get the two special days before hand and the memos are getting kicked back now stating we don’t get two days only one because of this rule.



This part...perhaps its the wording but I read it as "we aren't given the possible maximum days off, ever"...this part I am not in agreement with as I understand it.  Leave is to be taken as it would be for an uncompressed work schedule, etc.  Not sure if the status for courses, etc is AP, TD, etc.  That also factors in.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2017)

danteh said:
			
		

> Well I am trying to figure it out because I am going on a tasking for 44 days, over two stat holidays (Xmas and Boxing Day) and I am having issues getting days off for it. As of right now I am working 24, waking up driving to the airport to start the task. When I am done I fly back and than start work the next morning. All I have been asking for is two days off before and after and getting shut down.



Is your tasking a posting/attach posting, TD?


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## danteh (25 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is your tasking a posting/attach posting, TD?



Yes, TD.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2017)

Personally, I am of the mindset that CAF members should, if at all possible, get the max days off allowed in the Chap 5 Annexs before being away from their postal code and families.  I'm alittle biased;  my coworkers and myself spend a lot of days away from home and/or on standby and rarely do we ever get those days back even close to 1 for 1.  I'm writing this after another crew day away from my postal code.  

I also think, though, in your case, your unit...1 *shift* equals 2 days of leave, because your shift covers 2 calendar days.  IAW the LPM, the CO doesn't have the ability to grant 'partial' leave days except for Short.  If the CO is only giving you 1 *shift* off for Special, vice 1 *day* off...well...that unfortunately can easily be seen as meeting the spirit and intent of the LPM (IMO).

In the case of your specific upcoming TD that will include Christmas, I think your unit could revisit the scheduling plan and revise it so you had a day or 2 before your depart and when you get back.  I think this could easily fall in the "QOL/welfare of subordinates" part of the way we do business...and if I was your immediate superior, this is the approach I would take with your A/UCWO.  Have you discussed this with your immediate superior yet?    

Edit - ok, for TD...from Chap 5...have a read of a few earlier posts.  Its basically up to the CO to grant/limit, etc.

"Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO."


----------



## Blackadder1916 (25 Oct 2017)

There were two grievance summaries that dealt with leave and shift workers.  While the circumstances of each were not exactly like the OP's situation, the results may provide some understanding on how it could play out if grieved.

https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2014-089.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2013-002.html


> . . . In reviewing the case, the Board was concerned by the IA's view that the duty/leave cycle was fair because it provided “adequate” or “sufficient” leave in the duty cycle while meeting the mission. The Board was of the view that it is not open to the CO to determine leave entitlements on the basis of what he judges he can afford while still fulfilling his operational mandate. Rather, the discretion available to the CO is found in the authority to grant or deny the leave. Leave entitlements are determined by the Canadian Forces leave policy. . . .
> 
> CDS Decision Summary
> . . .  The FA was of the opinion that working beyond an average Monday-to-Friday schedule does not automatically mean that compensation has to be attributed. To work beyond normal work or shift schedules does not automatically entitle one to compensatory off-duty time. However, it is a command responsibility to ensure that adequate leave and off-duty time be provided to Canadian Armed Forces personnel. . . .


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## McG (26 Oct 2017)

It should not take more than one day of leave to get 24 hours off.  But, it should also not be possible to take one day annual, one day weekend and one more day annual to get an eight day cycle off.

The problem here is misapplication of leave policy (which gives very specific arcs) to solve a separate scheduling problem.  If you take one day annual on what should be D1 of the 8 day cycle, then your D1 shifts to the left by one calendar day.  Take three annual and D1 shifts to what would be D4.  Maybe after 4 days of annual the system gives you a day of weekend, and with the consumption of six days annual you get two days of weekend (to make a full eight day cycle off).


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## ballz (26 Oct 2017)

MCG said:
			
		

> It should not take more than one day of leave to get 24 hours off.



They aren't getting 24 hours off though, they are getting 48 hours off. For example, if my shift is 0730 Wednesday - 0730 Thursday.... I take that shift off, I am actually getting 48 hours off (0000 Monday until 2359 Tuesday)... I definitely need at least two annual. In this scenario, you come off work Tuesday at 0730... by taking that second 24 shift off, you are getting Wednesday and Thursday off.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> But, it should also not be possible to take one day annual, one day weekend and one more day annual to get an eight day cycle off.



I'm being pedantic here because it's important in applying Weekend(Shiftworker) leave, but it's a 9-day cycle. 4 working days* and 5 Weekend(Shiftworker). If you look at how they compared it towards a normal Mon-Fri worker in the grievance analysis, the results are quite contrasting here. In any given 63-day period, a M-F worker has 18 non-working days, let's assume a stat or two, so 19-20... in this 9-day cycle, the shiftworker is getting 35.

*Let's say my 9-day cycle starts at 0730 on Monday...
My shifts are
0730 Monday - 0730 Tuesday
24 hrs off
0730 Wednesday - 0730 Thursday
5 days off 

So 4 working days, 5 Weekend(Shiftworker)



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> The problem here is misapplication of leave policy (which gives very specific arcs) to solve a separate scheduling problem.



Agreed. Even if I knew all the different constraints and how the job works, I don't know if there'd be an easy answer with the constraints of the Leave Policy.

But I think in this case, the members are getting a pretty jammy go for days off...


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## McG (26 Oct 2017)

ballz said:
			
		

> They aren't getting 24 hours off though, ...


Of course, I never stated nor did I attempt to state what they are getting from a day of leave.  I stated what should be gotten.  Put that snipped out sentence back into context with the rest of the post and you see that.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> I'm being pedantic here because it's important in applying Weekend(Shiftworker) leave, but it's a 9-day cycle. 4 working days* and 5 Weekend(Shiftworker).


Are you sure?  The OP has not used terms such as “working days” and “weekend”.  Others have used those terms, but I would want a reference to show those terms can be applied to interpret the OP’s words.  The OP described 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then five days off.  In my mind, where the remainder of the schedule is in 24 hr blocks then five days off is a 120 hour block.

If I missed something, point me back to it (I am reading on a smart phone and I find it is easier to miss things on the little screen).  Otherwise, this may be a point for the OP to clarify.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Oct 2017)

ballz said:
			
		

> If you look at how they compared it towards a normal Mon-Fri worker in the grievance analysis, the results are quite contrasting here. In any given 63-day period, a M-F worker has 18 non-working days, let's assume a stat or two, so 19-20... in this 9-day cycle, the shiftworker is getting 35.



However, in the case of an avg Mon-Fri worker, they are likely working 8-4 per duty day, and the 24hr folks are on duty for 3 times as much per shift.


----------



## ballz (26 Oct 2017)

MCG said:
			
		

> Are you sure?  The OP has not used terms such as “working days” and “weekend”.  Others have used those terms, but I would want a reference to show those terms can be applied to interpret the OP’s words.  The OP described 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, then five days off.  In my mind, where the remainder of the schedule is in 24 hr blocks then five days off is a 120 hour block.
> 
> If I missed something, point me back to it (I am reading on a smart phone and I find it is easier to miss things on the little screen).  Otherwise, this may be a point for the OP to clarify.



I am not "sure" as I have asked but didn't get responded to. The OP says 24 on- 24 off -24 on- 5 days off. But you're right, he could have meant 24/24/24/120. In that case, yeah it would be 4 working days and 4 Weekend(Shiftworker).

The reason I am assuming Weekend(Shiftworker) is because by the book, I can't see how there is any other way. As far as I know, it is either a duty day or you are on some kind of leave. A CO can't just call something a "non-working day" and therefore render the leave manual useless altogether. Whether it's a 9-day cycle or 8-day, the only thing within the authority of the CO to use to run this kind of cycle is Weekend(Shiftworker) leave. Which follows logically since that it is exactly what it is exists for.

Until positively shown otherwise, I am working off the assumption that this is 4 working days (covers the 24 on-24 off-24 on) and 5 days off, which would be Weekend(Shiftworker). x




			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> However, in the case of an avg Mon-Fri worker, they are likely working 8-4 per duty day, and the 24hr folks are on duty for 3 times as much per shift.



Depending on which unit we are comparing it to (because every Unit varies... my current Unit is 0730 - 1600, so 44 hrs/week) in a 63-day period, the shift-worker on this 9-day cycle works an extra 28-56 hrs...... or 3-6 days if you consider 8 hours a normal work day" so 28-56 hrs, or 3-6 extra 8-hr shifts, however you want to measure it.... justifies an extra 15 more days off?

I guess I'd have to re-do all the math if this is an 8-day cycle. I hope it is, this should feel less lopsided.


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## Loachman (26 Oct 2017)

I've only been casually watching this, and not attempting to solve the puzzle, but I am tending to view this in terms of TD.

Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own. I frequently spent a fair amount of one to three days of TD, sometimes several times a month, during my early flying career. Each of the middle days represented a twenty-four-hour "shift", and the first and last day well more than the normal eight-hour workday, if one factors the sleeping-in-a-bed-other-than-one's-own aspect in. We never received additional time off for that, nor should we have.

I don't begrudge a shiftworker a little extra time off for the inconvenience of working evenings/nights/weekends and missing family time or living with disrupted circadian rhythms for a few years, but the shifts in question do not appear to do that - too much, at least - unless routinely called out over the full shift cycle. Even then, there appears to be full twenty-four-hour period for recovery and own-time after each.

A fair and consistent means of determining leave remains necessary, but I have no real idea what that would be.


----------



## mariomike (26 Oct 2017)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own.



Heard that from citizens for many years. I cried all the way to the bank.  

We could get into a Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) discussion. But, suffice to say,  it's "work" just being there. Regardless of how one measures productivity.

Pay and hours of work remain the same whether you are out breaking your back, enjoying a tasty BBQ, washing your car, watching your favorite TV show, or sleeping on the job. 

FWIW, regarding scheduling, in the city I reside, firefighters work ten 24-hour shifts every six weeks, and paramedics work twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks. 

Impressed a scheduling discussion has gone on for three pages, and counting!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Oct 2017)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I've only been casually watching this, and not attempting to solve the puzzle, but I am tending to view this in terms of TD.
> 
> Not all of the twenty-four-hour shift is "work", unless called out, right? Some of it is, yes, but some is also spent simply sleeping in a bed other than one's own. I frequently spent a fair amount of one to three days of TD, sometimes several times a month, during my early flying career. Each of the middle days represented a twenty-four-hour "shift", and the first and last day well more than the normal eight-hour workday, if one factors the sleeping-in-a-bed-other-than-one's-own aspect in. We never received additional time off for that, nor should we have.
> 
> ...



I think we're starting to blurr the lines between "duty hours" and "work hours".  If we do that, we'd also have to factor in lunch breaks, smoke/coffee breaks, admin time, etc for the *normal* work week folks.  I don't know a single mbr who sits down in their workspace at 0800 and has at it until 1600.

I've been on Standby from 1600 Fri - 0800 Mon and not called in, but on duty the entire time just the same, although not at work.  I can't travel outside of my established boundaries, put in a leave pass, for the simple matter I am on duty over that period.


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## Loachman (26 Oct 2017)

I fully understand these aspects, which all need to be properly considered when constructing a fair and consistent means of determining leave for those who lead non-standard (within the CF) work lives - something that is unlikely to happen, unfortunately.

But then much of the CF also leads non-standard work lives for various periods - long- or short-term TD, exercises, deployments, long voyages on the briny ocean tossed - and that is why the leave policy, overall, is so generous.


----------



## Franko (26 Oct 2017)

So, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off?

Sign me up for this trade!

Regards


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Oct 2017)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> So, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off?
> 
> Sign me up for this trade!
> 
> Regards



What?......and give up your 24 on, 24 on, 24 on, 24 on,................?


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## garb811 (26 Oct 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Heard that from citizens for many years. I cried all the way to the bank.
> 
> We could get into a Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) discussion. But, suffice to say,  it's "work" just being there. Regardless of how one measures productivity.
> 
> ...


Mariomike, you have a tendency at times to equate civilian scenarios onto the military world as if they are mirror images of each other, which they aren't.  For instance, in this case, civilian (even DND civilian) firefighters negotiate their pay and benefits with the employer.  And that includes the conditions of work.  For those of us in the military, that doesn't happen; one set of pay and benefits apply no matter what the conditions of work.  That ends up in policies that have wiggle room and room for interpretation as to how those policies apply to non-standard examples.

So, if we use the idea that 24 hours of work (whether that be time spent actually working, time spent on standby at work watching the hockey game or time spent asleep), followed by 24 hours off completely, and then another 24 hour work cycle results in five days off, how do we square that with folks posted aboard ship where they are "at work" for the entire time they at sea?  The Army when they deploy on exercise?  When we deploy on Ops?  What about guys like EiTS who spend an entire weekend on call who I am guessing is still expected to show up for normal duty on Monday morning if they haven't launched?  The various other people who are put on call without compensation (Duty JAG, Duty MO, Military Police Duty Officer, Duty Supply Tech, Duty Image Tech, the IRU each Bde maintains on reduced notice to move...)? We certainly aren't compensating those personnel (who are entitled to the same basic benefits as a firefighter in a firehall) to anything near the standard that is happening in this situation.  If we did that...nobody would be at work, ever.

We in the military are given a lot of latitude as to being flexible with the work hours of people in order to make up for some of those discrepancies.  For instance, if someone has to go take their kid to the dentist at two in the afternoon and the member has nothing that "requires" them to be at work, the general attitude is the person is out the door and done for the day; they don't need to put in a leave pass.  Same thing for stuff like medical and dental appointments, hell, even PT time.  For us that is "duty" type stuff so we go during working hours but in the civilian world, the vast majority of people don't have that flexibility.  If they want to do that kind of stuff, they are going off the clock and using one type of leave or another because the employer has an expectation that that person is going to work for the hours they are mandated to work...if they want to keep their job.

As a result of that flexibility though, there is a requirement that what we do is within defensible bounds.  When it gets out of control, that is when push back happens, such as with the Navy's sliders.  I knew guys who headed home after soup on Friday on a regular basis and after lunch, the Dockyard was pretty much a ghost town.  When the unions called foul because they were being blamed for work not getting done on the ships, the Admiral had no choice but to make sliders go away (although if I was a betting man, they have slowly crept back in).

And then there are the unintended consequences where having people work certain periods of times kicks in entitlements that they otherwise wouldn't have that increases the costs for the CAF.  In this instance, all of the firefighters working that shift are now entitled to rations at public expense for their duty period.  There is also the fact that there is now less time available for the folks working these shifts to do the other military oriented stuff that needs to be done because out of that 24 hour period, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect them to be "working" from 0730 hrs to 2300 hrs (or whenever bedtime is) whereas my observation is that during a 12-13 hour night shift, at least a portion of those waking hours were spent doing "work" related activities before winding it down for the night and the day shift followed a pretty standard day routine of anyone else on the base.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who has subordinates who work shift, this schedule is causing problems for the supervisors.  Maybe it is keeping enough people on shift, maybe it is getting people's annual leave expended.  I don't know what the actual issue is that has caused the local leave policy to be changed so that the they need to take 2 days leave for 1 shift off but my gut is telling me that if this gets "pushed" via a redress or something, the whole scheme is going to fall apart. 



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think we're starting to blurr the lines between "duty hours" and "work hours".  If we do that, we'd also have to factor in lunch breaks, smoke/coffee breaks, admin time, etc for the *normal* work week folks.  I don't know a single mbr who sits down in their workspace at 0800 and has at it until 1600.


True, but on the other hand, every place I have been have a standing order which designates working hours, including lunch and breaks.  Makes it much easier to ding the problem children who can't get out of bed in the morning.

_Edit to add:_  We have a similar problem with our shift workers and it really comes to a head when posting season rolls around and shift workers are posted to an Embassy.  8 days of special relocation can equate to 3 weeks of time off if not managed properly.


----------



## SupersonicMax (26 Oct 2017)

garb, 

The difference between someone on duty at home and a firefighter on duty or a fighter pilot/technician in the QRA is that we are tied to out place of employment.  You cannot leave your place of duty because of the response times expected of you.  You literally have to sleep in a room next to the jet /firetruck in case you get launched.  I can't even work out in good conscience because that means having to change into PT clothes and eventually take a shower.  Having that responsibility is quite fatiguing even if you are "resting".  I have never really gotten out of the QRA well rested even if nothing happens.  When something happenned, I would be a bag of hammers the next day...

As far as Operations go, there is leave to compensate for that. (HLTA, pre/post-deployment leave)


----------



## mariomike (26 Oct 2017)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Mariomike, you have a tendency at times to equate civilian scenarios onto the military world as if they are mirror images of each other, which they aren't.  For instance, in this case, civilian (even DND civilian) firefighters negotiate their pay and benefits with the employer.  And that includes the conditions of work.  For those of us in the military, that doesn't happen; one set of pay and benefits apply no matter what the conditions of work.  That ends up in policies that have wiggle room and room for interpretation as to how those policies apply to non-standard examples.
> 
> So, if we use the idea that 24 hours of work (whether that be time spent actually working, time spent on standby at work watching the hockey game or time spent asleep), followed by 24 hours off completely, and then another 24 hour work cycle results in five days off, how do we square that with folks posted aboard ship where they are "at work" for the entire time they at sea?  The Army when they deploy on exercise?  When we deploy on Ops?  What about guys like EiTS who spend an entire weekend on call who I am guessing is still expected to show up for normal duty on Monday morning if they haven't launched?  The various other people who are put on call without compensation (Duty JAG, Duty MO, Military Police Duty Officer, Duty Supply Tech, Duty Image Tech, the IRU each Bde maintains on reduced notice to move...)? We certainly aren't compensating those personnel (who are entitled to the same basic benefits as a firefighter in a firehall) to anything near the standard that is happening in this situation.  If we did that...nobody would be at work, ever.
> 
> ...



 :goodpost:


----------



## garb811 (26 Oct 2017)

Max:

Trust me, I get it. A large part of my career has been spent working shift, or being on the MPDO roster.  I also had a posting where, for a period of time due to schedules, we were allowed to go to ground as long as we remained gunned up and ready to roll...yeah, not restful at all but I was still more rested than when circumstances changed and I had to be up for the entire shift period.  As the MPDO, depending on the Base, that could result in multiple calls at night over the course of a duty week, and even trips into the guardhouse if the issue was significant enough.  To say that I was well rested at any point in my time at a busy base as a "day worker", even though my duty was "at home", would be a stretch.

Question for you ref time in the QRA.  How often is the duty cycle pulled on average and what is the time off when you come off the 24 hr period?


----------



## SupersonicMax (27 Oct 2017)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Max:
> 
> Trust me, I get it. A large part of my career has been spent working shift, or being on the MPDO roster.  I also had a posting where, for a period of time due to schedules, we were allowed to go to ground as long as we remained gunned up and ready to roll...yeah, not restful at all but I was still more rested than when circumstances changed and I had to be up for the entire shift period.  As the MPDO, depending on the Base, that could result in multiple calls at night over the course of a duty week, and even trips into the guardhouse if the issue was significant enough.  To say that I was well rested at any point in my time at a busy base as a "day worker", even though my duty was "at home", would be a stretch.
> 
> Question for you ref time in the QRA.  How often is the duty cycle pulled on average and what is the time off when you come off the 24 hr period?



Sure you pulled these shifts but you still had the liberty to go about and do get a coffee at Timmies if you wanted.

When I got on squadron, I would go to work on the day I got out of the QRA.  I basically didn't get time off for QRA per se.  I would go to work and often fly a sortie that day.  I would be bagged at he end of the day though and most times had to go back in the QRA the next day.  A week of that really took its toll.  Towards the end of my second tour, we would have the day after we got out off but we were on duty from home.  There was nothing else in terms of compensation.  As a note, anytime we had to sleep in the QRA, we were given the incidental allowance.

Like I said, I am not one that seeks more leave than I already have: for my personnal taste, my yearly leave entitlement is a little too much.  I wish I could accumulate for future use rather than use it on time off that is not really enjoyable (spouse working for example). Having said that, I can understand that people would think they get shortchanged.  My belief is if you are expected to sleep at work because we may need you, any calendar day you were physically at work should count towards something.  Perhaps if we use something like reserve day accounting for duty day (less than 6 hours in a day at work counts towards 1/2 duty day) would work better. 

In this case, if you change over at 6AM or 7PM, 24 hrs at work equals 1.5 duty days vs 2.  The remaining 1/2 day would be rest.  On a 2 on/2 off/2 on schedule, it would mean you actually worked 5 days and fot 2 days off, which would be on par with everybody else.  For every 6 calendar days, you would get 2 full days off vs the normal 2 for 7 days.  This would account for the hardhip of sleeping at work and all..

This would mean a massive overhaul on how we reckon leave but it could be done (we somewhat do that for short already).


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## garb811 (27 Oct 2017)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Sure you pulled these shifts but you still had the liberty to go about and do get a coffee at Timmies if you wanted.


Lol, I joined in 85.  Timmies didn't exist in my neck of the woods when I started doing shifts and, back in that day and age, even if you were off base for duty reasons, if you got caught stopping at a McDonalds or a coffee shop...things went very bad for you.

I was also posted to an Embassy which was manned 24/7.  There was no opportunity to get out of the Embassy, at any time, for any reason, while on shift as we were one person and in uniform.  Because of where CSC was located, there was no television and no internet as DFAIT hadn't rolled out their world wide network yet.  Night shifts were pretty awesome, basically 3-4 hours of getting stuff done before you locked the Embassy down for the night and then 7-8 hours sitting by yourself, in a box, watching security cameras, monitoring the alarm systems and reading the literary classics of Zane Gray and Harlequin Romances that the Legion was kind enough to send in welfare boxes 2-3 times a year, except for two security patrols of the empty building that took about 20 min if you walked really, really slowly... So, yeah, I do get it.



> When I got on squadron, I would go to work on the day I got out of the QRA.  I basically didn't get time off for QRA per se.  I would go to work and often fly a sortie that day.  I would be bagged at he end of the day though and most times had to go back in the QRA the next day.  A week of that really took its toll.  Towards the end of my second tour, we would have the day after we got out off but we were on duty from home.  There was nothing else in terms of compensation.  As a note, anytime we had to sleep in the QRA, we were given the incidental allowance.


I'm not surprised you were a mess, the last few hours of a night shift and the next two days I was done.  A week of what you were pulling is insanity.  How did that reconcile with your crew day?  My understanding was those were hard and fast rules that didn't get broken?  Incidentals is also very interesting, first I have heard of that being done for duty pers.  It would certainly bring some sanity to what the Army does where each Bn/Regt seems to have a Duty Officer, Duty Sgt, Duty Cpl and Duty driver on for 24 hour periods on top of the Garrison duty folks.



> My belief is if you are expected to sleep at work because we may need you, any calendar day you were physically at work should count towards something.  Perhaps if we use something like reserve day accounting for duty day (less than 6 hours in a day at work counts towards 1/2 duty day) would work better.


I don't disagree with you, and would stretch it to include some form of compensation for any stand-by time because really, you're still on duty if you are tied to a Blackberry and have to be immediately ready to either provide direction or head into work or whatever.  

The civilian world deals with that via shift premiums for people who work night shift, "jammy" shift rotations, overtime, and stand-by pay.  Unfortunately, we in the military can't even agree what shift work is, so I doubt there is going to be any kind of consensus on how to properly account and compensate for any of that.


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## Franko (27 Oct 2017)

All these shifts sound horrible.  /sarcasm

At least you weren't being rocketed, mortared shot at every day for months on end even while "off shift".

Try to keep some perspective folks....you have a bed, a roof over your head and no one is actively trying to kill you. Life is good.

Regards


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## SupersonicMax (27 Oct 2017)

You are compensated when you are in an environment that has bullets and rockets flying around.  With RA and tax free salary.

Because your life is not immediately threatened doesn't mean you shouln't get fair and sufficient time off for out of ordinary shifts.


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## CountDC (27 Oct 2017)

Over complicating this.

In a shift as presented they work 48 hours (2 days on of 24 hours). In a normal shift of 8 hour days (yeah we all get it that not everyone works it but that is what is considered a normal work day) over the same period of 8 days you would be expected to work 48 hours.  Under the normal schedule to take off the 8 days you would have to use 6 days of leave thus iaw with the leave manual the shift worker should use 6 days to get the same period off.

You are not getting screwed, you are getting off easy,   it should be 3 days annual for taking a scheduled 24 hour work day off as under a normal schedule it would take 3 days (3 X 8) vice the 2 days they are enforcing.  

and in case anyone is wondering - both schedules get 144 hours off in the 8 day period. Below is a chart showing the schedule.  I actually did this for four 8 day schedules in a row and regardless of the day you start on it works out the same.

Shift                                          Normal
mon		on	24			8	on	16
tue		off		24		8	on	16
wed		on	24			8	on	16
thu		off		24		8	on	16
fri		off		24		8	on	16
sat		off		24		0	off	24
sun		off		24		0	off	24
mon		off		24		8	on	16
		48	       144		        48	144


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## Towards_the_gap (27 Oct 2017)

I've been watching this thread with interest as a former ground pounder and now as someone who works the 24 hr shift. To be honest, I'm too baffled by the regulations quoted here to debate the meaning and intent of the CF Leave Manual, hell I rarely paid attention to it when I was in! 

But I will say this, yes the 24hr shift pattern is a good go. Stating that your 'unit is getting screwed for leave' is kinda pushing it I would say, and I would be wary of charging up this particular hill. You may expend 'leadership capital' that could be put to better use elsewhere. 

By all means ask for the extra leave, but when it gets turned down, if it does, perhaps just take it as one of those military things, grumble about it over morning coffee, and worry about how else you can improve your workplace/team.

Just my 2c.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Oct 2017)

CountDC,

Sorry, how would it take 3 x Ann Days to take 2 calendar days of leave exactly?  Shift starts at 0730, ends on 0730.  That's 2 calendar days, from 0000-2359 each.


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## McG (27 Oct 2017)

CountDC,
Your math works if every eight day cycle starts on a Monday, but (since our weeks are only seven days long) I think we can agree that is not the reality.  Check your model for a Saturday or Sunday start to the eight day cycle and tell us who has more hours.  Or, just extend the math out to 56 days (a common termination point for both seven and eight day cycles) and tell us how the hours are different.

But it does not matter, because the CAF does not account for leave or work days in terms of hours.

The funny thing about shift work is that it is scheduled.  So if you are supposed to work Monday and Wednesday but put in for leave from Monday to Wednesday, that should not mean you get a full 8 day cycle of no work.  You should be working Thursday and Friday instead.  As long as scheduling shifts right (never left) to accommodate days of leave, then at the end of the year it works out to you having used the 25 days (depending on TI) to which you are entitled.


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## QV (27 Oct 2017)

And then when a day worker puts in for Monday to Friday off surely they will be working Saturday and Sunday, right?  If not then it should cost two annual for the weekend as well.... because that is what you are suggesting for the shift worker.


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## McG (27 Oct 2017)

QV said:
			
		

> And then when a day worker puts in for Monday to Friday off surely they will be working Saturday and Sunday, right?  If not then it should cost two annual for the weekend as well.... because that is what you are suggesting for the shift worker.


No I am not.  Read earlier posts and you will see I have addressed weekends.  If someone on the eight day cycles were to take three days annual, they should be given a day of weekend to take with it.  At five days of annual, there would be a second day of weekend tied to the leave.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Oct 2017)

QV said:
			
		

> And then when a day worker puts in for Monday to Friday off surely they will be working Saturday and Sunday, right?  If not then it should cost two annual for the weekend as well.... because that is what you are suggesting for the shift worker.



How is that when you take into consideration the policy  states:

1.1.12 Leave

Leave means absence from duty approved by an approving authority.  [meaning, non working/duty days in any mbr's schedule are not Ann Lve days.  Including all the Mon-Fri folks who aren't on duty every weekend, but aren't burning Ann Lve either].

1.1.24 Working Day

Working day means a day of paid service on which an officer or non-commissioned member is regularly scheduled to perform duty.

Section 2.2 Reckoning Time

2.2.01 Reckoning Time

Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.

Weekends, designated holidays and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers, their scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF100); shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days although such days will normally form part of the leave period.


And lastly, ref the attach picture.


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## garb811 (27 Oct 2017)

CountDC: Your idea also runs smack into:



> Section 2.2 Reckoning Time
> 2.2.01 Reckoning Time
> 
> Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
> ...



McG:  Your idea runs into the problem of the actual shift schedule and getting the person back on to their actual shift as well.

Looking at the leave manual, there has been an amendment at some point to the shift worker section from what was originally published.  The example provided never existed, it was how many Guardhouses were doing it (in order to take "days off" as a shift worker you first needed to earn them by working the actual shift) but when the leave manual came out it only talked about "scheduled days" and "scheduled days off" without providing any kind of example which resulted in us giving leave as per the published leave schedule (ie. as long as it was a scheduled shift day off, you got it as a shift worker whether it had been earned or not).


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## ballz (27 Oct 2017)

The real problem here is that 25 annual leave days (and pretty much everything else in the leave manual) is meant to solve a leave problem for M-F type workers.

Weekend(Shiftworker) was thrown in to help manage shiftworkers, but if one annual got you out of one working day, shiftworkers would be able to get an obscene amount of leave. So they added the caveat that annual leave will be taken in calendar days, just like M-F workers. That doesn't fit so nicely into managing a shift schedule.

Ideally, I would look at it like this... Someone with 25 annual gets 5x 7-day periods off of work, or 35 days non-working days. Give someone the shifts off that gets them that... If you have an 8 day cycle with 2x 24hr shifts in it, you get to take 9 full shifts off throughout the year, no complications. That gets you 36 days of non-working days.

Keep track of all the other days off we get as M-F workers... stats holidays, "traditional" short days (the ones we always seem to get out of historical practice, depending on your unit... like 4 short during xmas break, 2 short for march break), the special at Xmas, etc... let's say they add up to another 10* non-working days. You get an additional 2 shifts you can take off, which will give you an additional 8 non-working days.

So now M-F workers get their 25 annual, 8-day cycle shiftworkers get their 11 shifts off.... M-F workers get 45 non-working days, shiftworkers get 44.... that's pretty fackin' fair.

Unfortunately, the leave manual does not provide this level of flexibility for Commanders... the other (smaller) issue is how to prorate that for someone who gets posted in half-way through the fiscal year.


*The number 10 was pulled out of my ass, I'm sure it's more like 20.


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## kratz (27 Oct 2017)

My mother always said, "life isn't fair". 
These days, people are too concerned with what is "fair".

The problem with accounting for "fair", is who thinks the work vs time off is "fair".

In the past 20+ years, we've experienced "adjustments" to the pay and benefits package,
and the results of this living experiment has been a disaster.  For each change made, it has ultimately resulted 
in a savings for the taxpayer and more disgruntlement for MilPers.

Assuming everyone in a unit is getting screwed is a poor position to start from. 
If the OP can offer his unit a solution to his issue, do so.

When you are posted to your next position and find it to your liking, 
will you (and everyone in your situation) give up benefits to even things out, to be fair?


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2017)

But this has zero to do with pay and benefits package. It has to do with people who don't work "civie hours" in the military, what the CAF policy is regarding administering their leave and NWDs.

Some of us are at units where we do weekends on Standby, regularly. On top of that, we spend a large amount of time away from home on TDs, taskings, deployments.  We are ALSO CAF members who have lives and wives/significant others, families.  Should those working non-standard weeks be penalized and "suck it up" because it requires commands and commanders effort to come up with work and rest schedules that adhere to the LPM?  

Here's a simple solution;  follow policy, and when in doubt, follow policy.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).

- Can't figure the manual out, or not sure if what you're doing is in line with the spirit/intent of the Manual?

Inquiries

Director General Compensation and Benefits (DGCB)/Directorate Pay Policy Development (DPPD).


Speaking  as a designated shiftworker who is the type that spends a LOT of weekends on Standby, TD, tasking and/or deployments, I can assure you that if you spent as much time as I do away from home or on duty (away from the unit, but still on the leash), you'd be as interested in "fair amounts of time off" as I am.  I don't get paid overtime, right?

Lastly...



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> My mother always said, "life isn't fair".
> These days, people are too concerned with what is "fair".



I doubt will see a similar quote as part of the formal Jnr NCO or Jnr Officer leadership training in the CAF.  No disrespect to your mom intended (seriously).

Being FAIR is actually a part of being a leader.

https://www.rmcc-cmrc.ca/en/training-wing/your-goal-officer-canadian-armed-forces

Fairness:  You treat everybody justly, equitably and without prejudice


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## SeaKingTacco (28 Oct 2017)

Part of the problem in your fleet is that they made a decision a number of years ago to cut the number of combat ready crews- except that the business never went away. 

Fewer crews just did more.

We suffer from the same problem in MH...


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Oct 2017)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Part of the problem in your fleet is that they made a decision a number of years ago to cut the number of combat ready crews- except that the business never went away.
> 
> Fewer crews just did more.
> 
> We suffer from the same problem in MH...



Definitely, and I've heard of the..challenges hitting both the East and West coast for MH at townhall my trade had with our CWOs back in the spring.  My fleet (and unit, for the matter) isn't the only one working hard, by any means.  However, I don't think people who've never lived and breathed in a flying Sqn understand or believe how busy it is.

A 3+ year sustained operation will also tap into already stretched resources, and add to the fatigue.

ASW is dead, after all...isn't it?


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## CountDC (30 Oct 2017)

MCG said:
			
		

> CountDC,
> Your math works if every eight day cycle starts on a Monday, but (since our weeks are only seven days long) I think we can agree that is not the reality.  Check your model for a Saturday or Sunday start to the eight day cycle and tell us who has more hours.  Or, just extend the math out to 56 days (a common termination point for both seven and eight day cycles) and tell us how the hours are different.
> 
> But it does not matter, because the CAF does not account for leave or work days in terms of hours.
> ...



I did originally do the 8 day cycle for 4 different start days and the 8 days still worked out the same. I took your suggestion of running 56 days and you are right that it does run into a problem as the shift worker will have done 336 hours while the normal worker has done 320 hours, a difference of 16 hours/2 days.  Once you pass the 40 day mark is when it becomes unstable.
  
It doesn't count leave in hours but it does compare off work schedules based on hours and determines leave based on what it considers a normal work week which is 8 hours a day with half hour for lunch.  Thus at 8 hours a day a 24 hour shift equates to 3 days of a normal work schedule and requires 3 days of leave.  Problem is that does not look at a full cycle of 56 days or year.  I did the near approximation expanding the 56 days to a full year (365 days) and that ends up with the shift worker accumulating 13 days of extra work (rounding off).  

With the rough calculations the members could be given a plan of 2 days of leave for every shift day off and then the CO could grant 9 days short to cover the rest of the extra days worked in a year.  Of course there will be those that will argue everyone working the so called normal work week actually works a lot more but that doesn't count as compared to scheduled work hours. These are scheduled for the members and thus they should be compensated.


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## dapaterson (30 Oct 2017)

Or, as a domestic capability that's not deployed, we could civilianize the base/wing fire service functions, and only keep the bare minimum required to force generate for deployments...


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2017)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Or, as a domestic capability that's not deployed, we could civilianize the base/wing fire service functions, and only keep the bare minimum required to force generate for deployments...



Now that we don't take RCAF fire fighters to sea anymore, or wont be very soon, I really cant see why this wont become a reality.


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## Furniture (30 Oct 2017)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I did originally do the 8 day cycle for 4 different start days and the 8 days still worked out the same. I took your suggestion of running 56 days and you are right that it does run into a problem as the shift worker will have done 336 hours while the normal worker has done 320 hours, a difference of 16 hours/2 days.  Once you pass the 40 day mark is when it becomes unstable.
> 
> It doesn't count leave in hours but it does compare off work schedules based on hours and determines leave based on what it considers a normal work week which is 8 hours a day with half hour for lunch.  Thus at 8 hours a day a 24 hour shift equates to 3 days of a normal work schedule and requires 3 days of leave.  Problem is that does not look at a full cycle of 56 days or year.  I did the near approximation expanding the 56 days to a full year (365 days) and that ends up with the shift worker accumulating 13 days of extra work (rounding off).
> 
> With the rough calculations the members could be given a plan of 2 days of leave for every shift day off and then the CO could grant 9 days short to cover the rest of the extra days worked in a year.  Of course there will be those that will argue everyone working the so called normal work week actually works a lot more but that doesn't count as compared to scheduled work hours. These are scheduled for the members and thus they should be compensated.



I didn't take note of it in your original post, but have you accounted for the stat holidays in your yearly calculation? If not it would work out that a shift worker on an 8 day cycle working an extra 21 days a year. As a former shift worker, and current  supervisor of shift workers I find this discussion interesting.


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## trigger324 (30 Oct 2017)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Now that we don't take RCAF fire fighters to sea anymore, or wont be very soon, I really cant see why this wont become a reality.





and it should become a reality imo, speaking as another member of the trade


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## CountDC (3 Nov 2017)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I didn't take note of it in your original post, but have you accounted for the stat holidays in your yearly calculation? If not it would work out that a shift worker on an 8 day cycle working an extra 21 days a year. As a former shift worker, and current  supervisor of shift workers I find this discussion interesting.



Nope because if you look at the leave manual it already addresses this - the CO is responsible to ensure any stats that you are required to work is still given at a later date.  If the CO is doing his job properly you should be receiving your stat at some point (say the next time off you want) instead of taking annual.


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