# Nijmegen March Medal.  Authorized for wear on CAF DEU , mess kit?



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2019)

I can't attach a picture for some reason., but recently I saw a pic on FB of a mbr in Mess Kit with a yellow medal after their CD.  I wasn't sure what it was and assumed it was a medal from another country.

The past few days, I saw this picture on FB and realized it is the Nijmegen march medal.  I've never seen it before on someone's DEU or mess kit, just curious if it is authorized for wear by CAF mbrs.  It isn't on the Canada Medals Chart.


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## ModlrMike (21 Jul 2019)

AFIK, it's a purely commemorative medal, and as such can not be worn on ANY order of dress.


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## OldTanker (21 Jul 2019)

No different than a volksmarch medal (and I have both). No place on uniform.


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## Journeyman (21 Jul 2019)

It can be worn on a Legion blazer…. with the same amount of pride as their other make-believe medals.   op:


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2019)

Thanks for the replies...confirmed what I believed but...hey, I've been wrong before.  It pains me to say that the mbr in the picture was a Warrant Officer.   :  Finally got the pic to attach.


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## dapaterson (21 Jul 2019)

It is not uncommon for folks to wear it with mess kit, regardless of the regulations.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> regardless of the regulations.



The new military.


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## gcclarke (21 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The new military.



Eh, it's mess kit. Letting folks have a bit of fun with the tux they paid for themselves is hardly a new phenomenon.


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## Old EO Tech (21 Jul 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Eh, it's mess kit. Letting folks have a bit of fun with the tux they paid for themselves is hardly a new phenomenon.



Agreed we all wear our foreign jump wings on our mess kit despite regulations I would argue the difference though is I have never seen GOFO/SA CWO wearing a commemorative medal on their mess kit wear as there are many examples of them wearing foreign wings that we can all point to as "the example"


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## dapaterson (21 Jul 2019)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Agreed we all wear our foreign jump wings on our mess kit despite regulations I would argue the difference though is I have never seen GOFO/SA CWO wearing a commemorative medal on their mess kit wear as there are many examples of them wearing foreign wings that we can all point to as "the example"



I have seen at least one GOFO wearing one.


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## Old EO Tech (21 Jul 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I have seen at least one GOFO wearing one.



I'd be interested to see a picture of that, but I guess its no different than the CDS wearing foreign wings on the wrong side of his tunic at a NATO conference :-/


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2019)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to see a picture of that, but I guess its no different than the CDS wearing foreign wings on the wrong side of his tunic at a NATO conference :-/



Maybe this part of 265 covers that part?

Ch 3, Sect 3 - Flying and Specialist Skill Badges, Foreign Flying and Specialist Skill Badges

15.  Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CAF, and those who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function sponsored by the country concerned.


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## NavalMoose (21 Jul 2019)

Reminds me of a General that liked wearing lots of rings


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## Old EO Tech (22 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Maybe this part of 265 covers that part?
> 
> Ch 3, Sect 3 - Flying and Specialist Skill Badges, Foreign Flying and Specialist Skill Badges
> 
> 15.  Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the CAF, and those who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function sponsored by the country concerned.



Thanks I'm well aware of the regs, which is why I stated he was wearing one set on the wrong side, ie the left pocket as I guess he just had to many foreign wings :-/  I would also question that a NATO conference is a "formal function" sponsored by "the country concerned", but I guess as CDS he has the option to interpret the regs, since they are issued on his authority :-/

Cheers


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## Pusser (22 Jul 2019)

There is this common attitude that we can wear whatever we like on mess dress because we pay for it.  Although there is a certain amount of flair that is often overlooked*, mess dress is still a CAF uniform and the CAF Dress Instructions do apply.

There is a misconception when it comes to medals that it's the CAF that determines what you can wear and once you're out, those rules don't apply.  However, CAF regulations only determine where or how you wear them, not what we wear.  The only stipulation for what medals you can wear on CAF uniforms is that they must be approved under the Canadian Honours System.  The CAF does not "own" or control the Canadian Honours System.  The Crown "owns" it and the Chancellery (part of the Office of the Governor General) manages it.  The only current** orders, decorations and medals that are approved for Canadians can be found on the Medals Chart published by the Director Honours and Recognition (DH&R):https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/medals-chart-index.html.  It is worth noting that the Nijmegan March medal is not there.  Canadians wishing to wear medals that are not automatically part of the Honours System need to request permission from the Chancellery in order to wear them in the same group as Canadian Honours.  CAF members submit theirs request through the Chain of Command, who will forward it to the Chancellery.  Once approved by the GG, the award of a foreign medal will be Gazetted.  Note that there are many UN and NATO medals (but not all of them) that have been accepted into the Canadian Honours System, so they are no longer considered "foreign" in this context.

*Admittedly, I have been wearing a foreign qualification badge (which I have earned) on my mess dress for the last 20 years, in the same position that my foreign colleagues would wear it on their mess dress.  I've only been challenged on it once.  A CWO told me I was not allowed to do that, to which I politely responded that I would remove it as soon as everybody in the Army took down all their foreign jump wings.  The difference being that I actually took the foreign course that earned me that badge, whereas (at least as I understand it) foreign jump wings are often worn by folks who have merely made a certain number of jumps with a foreign army.  

**Older medals (e.g. those awarded prior to 1967 under the Commonwealth system) are still approved for wear with current Canadian honours, but that's a little more complicated that I wish to explain right now.  The order of precedence can be a little wonky.


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## gcclarke (24 Jul 2019)

Pusser said:
			
		

> There is this common attitude that we can wear whatever we like on mess dress because we pay for it.  Although there is a certain amount of flair that is often overlooked*, mess dress is still a CAF uniform and the CAF Dress Instructions do apply.



Well that's the thing about common attitudes; if they're common enough, they become the rule of the day. De facto versus de jure. 

Not all regulations are made equal after all. Someone deciding to tweak the rules in the dress instructions with regards to mess kit? End of the day, no harm no foul. Someone deciding to tweak the rules regarding ammunition or radiation safety in order to have a bit of fun? Big fucking deal. 

Or, to keep things related to mess kits: wearing a foreign badge that you've actually been awarded: no big deal. Wearing a Canadian medal fraudulently: it's court martial time. 

Throwing on a Nijmegen march medal seems very much so within the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish by having mess kit in the first place. Personally, I just ignore the silly relatively new addition about how "Only approved RCN Ensign cuff-links are to be worn."


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## Pusser (24 Jul 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Throwing on a Nijmegen march medal seems very much so within the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish by having mess kit in the first place. Personally, I just ignore the silly relatively new addition about how "Only approved RCN Ensign cuff-links are to be worn."



Yes I ignore that one as well.  Mind you, I've been wearing cufflinks on my long-sleeve white shirts for years (ever since I saw a Cmdre doing it over 20 years ago).  I now have quite a collection of over 50 pairs that I rotate through.  All of them are cool.  Some are really cool.


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## eliminator (24 Jul 2019)

I thought it was customary to wear the Nijmegen march medal under the lapel of the mess kit jacket? (Out of sight and easily shown if "challenged" by a former march member by flipping up the lapel)

I've seen various unapproved medals (not authorized to be mounted in conjunction with Canadian honours) such as low-level USA awards, NATO-ISAF, cadet medals (Lord Strathcona, Long Service), and association medals (Order of St Lazarus, etc)....but never a Nijmegen march medal.

Perhaps the only way to really view this as a "grey area" is the fact that the various regulations related to the Canadian Honours System pertains to the actual, full sized medals/decorations/orders/devices....rather than the optional miniature versions purchased by the recipient (?).


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## Navy_Pete (24 Jul 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> "Only approved RCN Ensign cuff-links are to be worn."



What kind of foolishness is that and where is that from?

It's almost an NTO tradition to have propellers, missiles or some other job related cufflinks.  That's just daft.


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## gcclarke (25 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> What kind of foolishness is that and where is that from?
> 
> It's almost an NTO tradition to have propellers, missiles or some other job related cufflinks.  That's just daft.



Absurd, I know. Anyways, it's from Chapt 5 Annex E of the dress instructions: the table item for Cuff Links specifies that: (3)  Navy: Only RCN Ensign Cuff-links 
may be worn in all orders of dress. 

Although now that I'm reading that, in conjunction with the line item above it, where it outlines which orders of dress the Army can wear it in, I believe it's not all that out to lunch to interpret that regulation to mean that wear of Cuff Links is literally authorized in all orders of dress, NCDs included. Poorly worded regulations for the win. Who wants to try it?


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## Journeyman (25 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> ... tradition to have propellers, missiles or some other job related Canadian Airborne Regiment cufflinks.


   8)


[I wasn't in Somalia;  I was spending a gruelling year sun-tanning, drinking Guinness, and playing rugby in Cyprus during all that   :nod: ]


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## Pusser (25 Jul 2019)

eliminator said:
			
		

> I thought it was customary to wear the Nijmegen march medal under the lapel of the mess kit jacket? (Out of sight and easily shown if "challenged" by a former march member by flipping up the lapel)
> 
> I've seen various unapproved medals (not authorized to be mounted in conjunction with Canadian honours) such as low-level USA awards, NATO-ISAF, cadet medals (Lord Strathcona, Long Service), and association medals (Order of St Lazarus, etc)....but never a Nijmegen march medal.
> 
> Perhaps the only way to really view this as a "grey area" is the fact that the various regulations related to the Canadian Honours System pertains to the actual, full sized medals/decorations/orders/devices....rather than the optional miniature versions purchased by the recipient (?).



Lots of people wear all sorts of things under their lapels and not only mess jacket lapels.  I knew a fighter pilot who used to wear his cadet wings under the lapels of all of his uniforms because they were the first wings he had earned.

I don't think it's that grey an area at all.  Honours are honours and there is a protocol as to how they are worn.  The fact that you pay for the miniatures is irrelevant because they still represent Honours from the Crown.  You can buy virtually any American medal in any American PX or NEX, that doesn't give anyone permission to wear them.  For that matter, you can buy even full size replicas of any Canadian Honour at various dealers in such things.  That still doesn't give permission to wear them.

The reason behind the rules is in order to preserve the integrity of the system.  All Canadian Honours are bestowed by the Crown and as a result, permission to wear foreign honours will only be granted for honours emanating from the same level (i.e. head of state).  That's why medals issued by the US Secretary of the Navy will not be approved, but those from the President likely will be.  Then there is the principle of dual recognition.  Even if an honour is issued by a head of state, it won't be approved for wear with Canadian Honours if the member has been awarded a Canadian Honour for the same, or fundamentally the same, thing.  This works in reverse as well.  I was involved in a file where Canada asked permission from the UK to award a Meritorious Service Cross to a British Officer.  The UK refused permission because they had already admitted him into the Order of the British Empire for what they considered the same thing.


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## Navy_Pete (25 Jul 2019)

When I went through basic in the early 2000s, had a few Airborne Sgts as staff.  They all wore their old cap badge on the inside of their beret, but were also some of the best instructors on the base. Not sure if that's explicitly against any dress policy but they both gave off the vibe that they could really ruin your day with a trip to the ER without breaking a sweat so strangely enough no one ever bothered looking it up.

Spending a year in Cyprus playing rugby sounds pretty ideal; not sure why that isn't more widespread in the forces as it's the best team building sport I've ever played with a great mix of cardio and strength for fitness.


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## dimsum (25 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> When I went through basic in the early 2000s, had a few Airborne Sgts as staff.  They all wore their old cap badge on the inside of their beret, but were also some of the best instructors on the base. Not sure if that's explicitly against any dress policy but they both gave off the vibe that they could really ruin your day with a trip to the ER without breaking a sweat so strangely enough no one ever bothered looking it up.
> 
> Spending a year in Cyprus playing rugby sounds pretty ideal; not sure why that isn't more widespread in the forces as it's the best team building sport I've ever played with a great mix of cardio and strength for fitness.



I'm curious as to how you, as a recruit, would know they had CAR badges on the inside of their beret.  Did they bring it up in conversation and flip it over?  Or was it inside but still visible?


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## Navy_Pete (25 Jul 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to how you, as a recruit, would know they had CAR badges on the inside of their beret.  Did they bring it up in conversation and flip it over?  Or was it inside but still visible?



Someone noticed it on one of them when he took it off during a lecture or something and asked about it, so kept an eye out for it as a way to pass time in St. Jean. No idea how common it was, as the rest of my postings were in Navy heavy units.


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> . . .  No idea how common it was, as the rest of my postings were in Navy heavy units.



I would say that it was relatively common.  I've seem it many times and not only following the disbandment of the CAR and not only involving the wear of that regiment's badge.  In the 1970's, one of the MCpl Med As who was posted into 1 Fd Amb had been infantry (PPCLI) before he remustered and had served in the CAR - he wore the CAR badge inside his beret.  At the same time there were other Med As who had previously been other trades (usually infantry) who wore badges of their former regiments (QOR, PPCLI, RCR) similarly inside their berets.  There were also a number of Med As (as Med Techs were called in those days) who did the same following their service in the CAR where all trades wore the same cap badge.  I even knew of one person who had served in 3 Mech Commando (in Germany), was not jump qualified, but wore his CAR badge inside his beret.

In a similar vein, when I was going through infantry phase training I wore a combat cap (but never in the Robin Hood style) that had the medical badge on it, however it was not as homage to my former (and later returned to) branch - it was just that the badge had originally been glued to the cap - gun tape solved the problem of covering up the badge.  On the only occasion when one of the instructors questioned what was behind the gun tape, his response to my explanation was to show me his beret that had the QOR badge inside behind his PPCLI badge.


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## RocketRichard (25 Jul 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I would say that it was relatively common.  I've seem it many times and not only following the disbandment of the CAR and not only involving the wear of that regiment's badge.  In the 1970's, one of the MCpl Med As who was posted into 1 Fd Amb had been infantry (PPCLI) before he remustered and had served in the CAR - he wore the CAR badge inside his beret.  At the same time there were other Med As who had previously been other trades (usually infantry) who wore badges of their former regiments (QOR, PPCLI, RCR) similarly inside their berets.  There were also a number of Med As (as Med Techs were called in those days) who did the same following their service in the CAR where all trades wore the same cap badge.  I even knew of one person who had served in 3 Mech Commando (in Germany), was not jump qualified, but wore his CAR badge inside his beret.
> 
> In a similar vein, when I was going through infantry phase training I wore a combat cap (but never in the Robin Hood style) that had the medical badge on it, however it was not as homage to my former (and later returned to) branch - it was just that the badge had originally been glued to the cap - gun tape solved the problem of covering up the badge.  On the only occasion when one of the instructors questioned what was behind the gun tape, his response to my explanation was to show me his beret that had the QOR badge inside behind his PPCLI badge.


This badge inside the beret idea intrigues me. I like the idea of a homage to my former trade. Where does one place it? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kratz (25 Jul 2019)

For my entire time with the Navy, I wore my other branch badge inside my beret. 
Nobody sees it, and it doesn't affect the shape / use of the headdress, so there was never an issue.

Metal cap badge are simple to slide into the leather patch inside the beret. Slightly bend the points to form to your forehead for comfort.
Cloth badges take a stronger needle. Ensure you sew the inside badge first, so the stitching is  covered by your outside badge.


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## RocketRichard (25 Jul 2019)

kratz said:
			
		

> For my entire time with the Navy, I wore my other branch badge inside my beret.
> Nobody sees it, and it doesn't affect the shape / use of the headdress, so there was never an issue.
> 
> Metal cap badge are simple to slide into the leather patch inside the beret. Slightly bend the points to form to your forehead for comfort.
> Cloth badges take a stronger needle. Ensure you sew the inside badge first, so the stitching is  covered by your outside badge.


Good tips. Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Journeyman (25 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Spending a year in Cyprus playing rugby sounds pretty ideal


It was after we'd stopped rotating Bns through.  There were only 4 of us in UNFICYP HQ (which meant we were too insignificant for any NDHQ Staff Annoyance Visits), and 3 of us played rugby with the Irish team, along with several folks from the Aussie police contingent..... hence the Guinness.

For whatever it's worth, I've never worn any kind of badges inside my beret or under a lapel.... although the Mess Kit is _SO_  Pirates of Penzance.  ;D


...and I did go through a phase where I had a set of DEU ribbons made with just my deployments -- no CD, PK, Jubilee.  Yes, I was obnoxious to some HQ-bound people.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Jul 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> no CD, PK, Jubilee.



PK?  Drawing a blank...


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## Journeyman (26 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> PK?  Drawing a blank...


Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal;  the medal given out for already having a medal.


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## Pusser (26 Jul 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal;  the medal given out for already having a medal.



Only mostly true.  It is possible under some circumstances to get a CPSM while not qualifying for another medal.  There was a naval deployment a number of years ago where that was the only medal folks received.


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## Journeyman (26 Jul 2019)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Only mostly Almost universally true.


But at the end of the day, quite a few of us never had to clutch at inconsequential bling (ask my ex-wife who "got tired of being a 'single mom'," and her divorce lawyer);  hence this whole thread on wearing a Nijmegan medal in uniform.  

The "only mostly" ribbons do nothing but diminish the recognition of those who did deploy or perform with exemplary courage or distinction, in the eyes of those civilian and military (and Legion members) people who have no idea.

YMMV.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Jul 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal



Ack; and



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> But at the end of the day, quite a few of us never had to clutch at inconsequential bling (ask my ex-wife who "got tired of being a 'single mom'," and her divorce lawyer);  hence this whole thread on wearing a Nijmegan medal in uniform.
> 
> The "only mostly" ribbons do nothing but diminish the recognition of those who did deploy or perform with exemplary courage or distinction, in the eyes of those civilian and military (and Legion members) people who have no idea.
> 
> YMMV.



Agree.


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