# Has anyone tried the NORINCO M14



## BITTER PPLCI CPL (13 Aug 2005)

I'm thinking of purchasing one of these along with thier version of the SIG P226 from marstar.ca. > > >


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## Expat (13 Aug 2005)

Well if their m14 is about as good as their SKS. You will be firing 3 round bursts after about 700 rounds. (They are crap)


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## NavyShooter (14 Aug 2005)

Hello Bitter PPCLI Cpl,

I'll jump in on this one.

There are two types of M-14 clones floating around.  There's the ones that Century brought in around 1990ish, which are truly crap, then there's the new ones being brought in now by Marstar.

I have one of the Marstar rifles, and it's a damn fine shooter.

With Good quality match grade ammo, it prints groups at around 1.25" at 100meters.  With surplus ammo, it puts in around 2-2.5" groups at the same range.

Reliability is very good, durabilty is good.  Mine has fired more than 700 rounds, and does not ripple off bursts.

The newly made Norincos available from Marstar have a Forged receiver, like the original M-14's did.  It's been tested/compared against the receiver geometry of the original M-14, and is closer than the geometry of some Springfield Armoury receivers.  The hardness tests that I've viewed results of show Rockwell hardnesses as follows:

*Rifle 1 
Average: 47.7 HRC 
Min: 47 HRC 
Max: 48 HRC 


Rifle 2 
Average: 46.2 HRC 
Min: 45 HRC 
Max: 47 HRC 


Rifle 3 
Average: 47.2 HRC 
Min: 46 HRC 
Max: 48.5 HRC*

These are within specs for the M-14.

An acquaintance of mine (Barney) has been testing headspace on these rifles, and as an average of over 50 rifles tested, the Norinco rifles have a headspace of between .010 and .013 over size, which is perfectly safe/fine.  When a USGI bolt is dropped into the Norinco Receiver, it brings the headspace down to .002 on average, and TRW Bolts come down to .000, dead on for headspacing.

Out of the box, you really can't beat the M-305 for price, and such.  A great deal.

If you want to read more on it, visit www.canadiangunnutz.com and have a look in the "Main Battle Rifle" Section.

NavyShooter


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## 1feral1 (14 Aug 2005)

I used to have a minty Winchester M14, a CA (for the M14 friendly - it had an original selector lock - no welds) which came out of OGT in about 1984. Before leaving for Austraila in 1994, I had consigned it to Wolverine out of Virden MB. The rifle was a great shooter, and I sure had fun for the 10 yrs that I owned it.

I have encountered the Springfield Armory M1A on a few occasions, and handled the Chi-Com counterfit, but never shot it. I would find anything copied on inferior eqpt substandard to the original. If I bought another (can't own such here anyways), I would go the M1A, and steer clear of the Chi-Com stuff.


Regards,

Wes


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## Gunnerlove (15 Aug 2005)

My friend bought a Norinco knock off and for $650 including the glass stock the value can't be beat.
Shoots fine and thats what really matters.


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## NavyShooter (15 Aug 2005)

Wesley,

The older Norinco M-14's definitely had metal hardness issues, not to mention headspace issues.

The new crop of stuff on the Canadian market (within the past 4-5 years) has seen a significant improvement from what was available a decade ago.

Visit the gunnutz site for more info and stuff on the pistols and rifles.

NS


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## 1feral1 (16 Aug 2005)

I will have a squizz. Thanks mate.

Cheers,

Wes


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## pappy (16 Aug 2005)

I'd like to think they are better now. I read an interesting comparison of the Norinco vs Springfield Armory then the Norincos first started to het the shops here in the US.
The Norinco didn't score too hot.  Well it did get hot, when it caught on fire.....  They torture tested both these rifles hard....
Fire was mainly due to the HUGE ammounts of Cosmoline Norinco uses, barrel got so hot it touched off the cosmoline soaked wood stock.
The major complaint was the quality of the steel in the bolts (bad head spacing new outta the box, got worse as firing progressed.... not a good thing)
Reciever steel quality was questionable too, with some reports of the barrel threads giving up the ghost, not a good thing either.  
Flash hider not aligned right, bullets hiting the bottom of the flash hider, they had pics showng copper streaks on the FH, not a good thing....

The reviewers comment was to swap out all the parts you could with USGI made, take the rifle in have a GOOD Gunsmith clean up the threads, re-head space and harden the steel, all of which is speady and time consuming.

Nirinco started jaming and failures to fire as the tests went along.

Springfield Armory, not a single problem....
The Springfield shot better as the firing went on, Norinco groups got worse as shooting went on...

At the end of the test the reviewer tossed the Norinco into a trash barrel and took a photo and said this is the proper place for the Norinco....

Beside the fact the Norinco uses slave labor

I own a SA M1A and have another on order the new SOCOM II

With any standard M1A a good bedding job will tighten up groups, they just shoot better once bedded.

I've held Norinco's in my hand, I'd never shoot one, they just didn't feel solid, craftmanship and tool marks looked sloppy.  Like I said maybe thier better these days, maybe not...

Anyone else know that Norinco imported more SKS's in the first 5 years they started importing them then the ENTIRE production run (100 years) of Winchester 94's in all calibers... Thats a lot of SKS's at that time retial on them was 75USD each....


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## pappy (16 Aug 2005)

if I remmber right they fired 5000 rds between the two rifles in one day!  That's a lot of shooting between a couple of guys.  I good quality rifle will last a lifetime, save the extra cash and get the best, you'll never be unhappy that way.


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## 1feral1 (16 Aug 2005)

Point of interest, currently the M14 Scout is being used by Australia, along with the SR-25, all within the SF community.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Expat (16 Aug 2005)

I remember there were big problems with Norinco ar15's.

They were good base which could be cheaply upgraded with North American parts. There was only one exception and that was the barrel nut had a different thread size it used a metric system were as American uses imperial.  I shot the said rifle and it was quite nice but then the owner was a gun smith.


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## Mineguy (16 Aug 2005)

If youre gonna be ok with spending the cash I think its alot better to have a dealer find you a Springfield m1a(Thats NOT the same springfield armoury guys and company that made the m14s for the us govt, that was the original SA which was around a long long time until the late 60s I belive?).The best M14 are the H/R and TRW so i also hear from collectors. I believe the M1a is probably even made better and may shoot better then the original m14 from what ive heard but that might be from biased owners but depends on pers experiences i guess. The original M14s that norinco was selling in the early 90s, i believe if my memory serves me correct a certain quantity of them actually even has Us m14 marked original recivers (that had made their way from vietnam left behind, may have been even sandblasted) and all the rest of the parts were norinco and mixed US parts. I think I can remember seeing that in a century type magasine from Montreal, quebec around 1991, the company folded around 93'94 ("international firearms"??-same place the mohawks bought their 100 norinco aks and RPks with the visa gold card and no questions were asked) . If you could get one of those, i think you could build a legal SA (not CA) M14 from all US parts and thats the next best thing to a real m14 which you cant own without CA grandfather clause and if you wont settle for an M1a or dont like the norinco and or a dewat either(which defeats the purpose if yopu wanna shoot it). Only thing is price, dewat m14 (500 bucks), working m14 Full or CA (650-1500 depending who is selling it), norinco (375?)...M1a(1500-2000+) and depending which model you want and what you want on it! Problem in canada is most guys dont have CA so they cant own a real m14 , only an m1a or a dewat.

A word of warning though, be careful when dealing with marstar(maybe hes gotten better?). Hold them exactly to what you agreed on and paid for and dont let them take their time with the deal or any other suspicious activity.Make a log of all calls and keep receipts. I sold them a pile of pistols (around 20 some pretty rare) and the guy said they were worth this and that price, then i saw them advertised for alot more on his site!!   He took near on 1 year or more to change over registration on 2 of them till i had to cause crap myself with the firearms center to get it done so i wouldnt be caught past that date when you had to have everything registered on, i belive i had it done hours before on the last day!!

Just my 2 cents.


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## NavyShooter (16 Aug 2005)

I have a copy of that "Torture test" of the Norinco vs M1A.

The Norinco died after about 480 or so rounds, the SA fired about 5000.

I have electronic copies around (and the hard-copy too if I can find it) if you'd like copies of that article.

Notwithstanding that, the new production M-14's from Norinco are of considerably better pedigree than the ones that are in the US.  Recall, the US still has an import ban from China, so they haven't even seen the new production rifles that we have up here.

What can I say, I am quite pleased with mine, and while there are a few rough edges, it's worth a lot more than the $480 or so you'll pay for it (delivered, inc taxes) and with the recent quality control problems with Springield Armoury rifles, they are worth a lot less than the ~$2000 or so that they seem to be going for.

(Remember, SA is now producing the rifles completely...no more surplus parts from old M-14's to use, so they're contracting out the production of all the parts they use, most of which are cast.  The receivers are now made in Canada, and a lot of the other parts are rumored to be made in Brazil.)

NS


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## pappy (16 Aug 2005)

as far as I know no M1A where made on surplus recievers in the US, ATF no-no, all the other parts are ok except fo the Full auto parts.  Imigine when the M14's where goverment issue they cost the US Gov't less then 100USD, but then of course they bought in bulk ha ha.  The US sold, well gave CONEX boxes full of M14's to the IDF as well as other allies.

I think the US Marked Norinco's where not made from left over parts from the VN war, although they copied the rifle directly, The Chi-com goverment purposely marked them that way and used to supply them to the Rebels in the Philippines.  That way any that where captured wheren't traced back the China. Since the US supplied M14's the the PI Goverment forces.  Made it simpler for the rebels to resupply from goverment stocks, same ammo, same mags, etc

The M1A scout is a tad longer then the SOCOM version isn't it? 18" barrel on the Scout, 16.5" on the SOCOM, maybe OZ got the smaller barrels too.  US SF units are issuing the SOCOM versions, not quite the same as the civilian one, since Uncle Sam lets them use the Full auto versions.... Civilian ones still semi-auto only.  Heard though the grape line the full-auto SOCOM don't have any muzzle climb on FA, but a little downward push from the new design muzzle brake.

SOCOM 16 = same "Scout" type barrel mounted scope mount.
SOCOM II = uses a 1913 style rail system, full lenght top rail, smaller rails on the sides and bottom.


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## Fdtrucker (17 Aug 2005)

Bought the M305 (Norinco M-14 from Marstar in 2003) while I at the fires in BC that year. Was unable to take it to the range due courses and pre-deployment trg in 04. Though I sold it to friend because i bought the Springfield Armoury M-1 Garand in 308 (7.62 x 51) he has had no difficulties firing it at the range.


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## NavyShooter (18 Aug 2005)

Ok,

I found a bunch of info from this site:

http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/

Specifically this link on the page:  

M-14 Rifle History and Development

http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/M14RHD1228public.rtf

Worth a read if you have a few minutes and are interested in the M-14...a whack of info on current production stuff.

NavyShooter




> *Origin of Chinese M14 Rifles*
> 
> A persistent rumor states that M14 rifles produced by the People's Republic of China were reverse engineered from enemy captured M14 rifles in Viet Nam. 4 China North Industries Corporation, known as Norinco, is reported to have produced M14 rifles by the early 1970s. 5 The story continues that 100,000 Chinese M14 rifles were produced for an armed revolution in the Philippines. 6 In preparing for this work, the author interviewed a very reliable source with extensive firsthand knowledge of Chinese and Taiwanese production and export of small arms was interviewed for this work.  This gentleman wishes not to be identified.  He is referred to as Other Source # 12.
> 
> ...


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (24 Aug 2005)

What about the Springfield M1A Scout, has anyone tried this. There 2 firearms I'm going for, SIG 226 (9mm or .40 S&W) and an M14 style rifle, just can't decide!


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## 1feral1 (24 Aug 2005)

We are using the M14 Scout right now, but in the SF role in Iraq. I was told there was consideration of the L1A1 SLR (our 'C1' rifle) to come back into service, but the lack of parts was an issue, and the remainder of the rifles were destroyed late last year.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Jay4th (25 Aug 2005)

B PPCLI CPL,  If the price is right (and it is) Buy both the 226 copy and the 305. 
I am probably the most staunch advocate of Norinco firearms having owned and sold more than 100 of them. Admitedly most were SKS 'd" models.  Yes they use slave labor, yes the firearms are cheap.  Inexpensive Norinco firearms probably bring more people to the shooting community than any other manufacturer. Anyone got any data?
I have owned both the old norinco clone M14 and the newer 305 and the newer are clearly superior in all ways.  Navyshooter is a wealth of knowledge on several boards. Always take his advice seriously.
The 226 copy is cheap, looks cheap, feels cheap. You can fix its bearing surfaces with some emery cloth in a couple of mins.  It is the cheapest way into a double action and 9mm is the only economical way to go.
     KevB is going to crap all over me any second cause he wont even let Norinco guns into the house. He is right to do so. Soon you will outstrip the ability of your norincos. Sell them and upgrade.
      Others will look down their noses at you, to hell with them. You can still afford ammo.  :threat:


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## Britney Spears (25 Aug 2005)

> Yes they use slave labor,



A minor hijack if you will, is there any actual documented evidence of this, or is it just another gun magazine rumor? I've seen it thrown around since I was born but it doesn't really make any sense.  The manufacture of rifles does require some degree of skill with medium-heavy machinery,  and China isn't exactly lacking in cheap, skilled labour. I can't see any economic reason why this would be the case.

Also WES CHECK PM!!!!! *waves frantically*


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## KevinB (25 Aug 2005)

Norinco is a China State industry.  There have many document cases of the state undustries not being the most generous of Chinese emploers but I dotn think they'd trust slave/prisoners with making firearms (unless they where exclusively for export   ) (i.e. Maj Gen so and so Chan runs the factory... probably not the most compassionate guy to put a redress in to  ;D)

 I dislike Norinco's for one reason ONLY - sending money to China, they are NOT a friendly power.  I just feel everytime someone buys a Norinco product they are putting another Chinese soldier in better and better kit (frightenly fast BTW)

That said if it gets people into shooting (more to shoot the CHICOM hordes  >) all the power to it.  

I owned an old Norinco M14 (the ones that where actually full auto guns that I cant beleive Canada let into the country and sold as unrestricted - but thats another story...) it coudl not zero to save its life -- it grouped okay about 3 feet left of the 100m target.
 The new ones are build on old Springfield machinery and work 100%.


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## greentips (29 Aug 2005)

What KevinB said!

"Thank you for the purchase of Norinco firearms ( which by the way, we took the drawings off you!!)  It pays for my new helmet, my new rifle, my cool sunglasses and my new NVG.....as well as the Hummveeeeee knock off! Cheers!  Hope to see you at Victoria!" ;D









			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> Norinco is a China State industry.   There have many document cases of the state undustries not being the most generous of Chinese emploers but I dotn think they'd trust slave/prisoners with making firearms (unless they where exclusively for export    ) (i.e. Maj Gen so and so Chan runs the factory... probably not the most compassionate guy to put a redress in to   ;D)
> 
> I dislike Norinco's for one reason ONLY - sending money to China, they are NOT a friendly power.   I just feel everytime someone buys a Norinco product they are putting another Chinese soldier in better and better kit (frightenly fast BTW)
> 
> That said if it gets people into shooting (more to shoot the CHICOM hordes   >) all the power to it.


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## Britney Spears (29 Aug 2005)

Mmm, seems a bit more morally palatable than paying for, say, diamonds, or Middle Eastern oil, which truly support genocide and terrorism,  but to each his own I suppose.


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