# Transporting the C-7 while on exercise.



## Lost_Warrior (11 Mar 2005)

The C7 (being an automatic assault rifle with a hi cap mag) is, under Canadian firearms law, illegal to own and illegal to transport by civilians without the proper documentation (if m memory serves me correctly).

Being in the reserves, we always have our rifles in civie sectors within our vehicles when we go on exercises outside the city.

I was just wondering what kind of laws there are for military, if any, and how much different they are for civilians.


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## Da_man (11 Mar 2005)

But you never have the bolt in it.     Anyway CF members are not subject to the Canadian firearms law when on duty.


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## Lost_Warrior (11 Mar 2005)

Thanks for the info.  Just curious.


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## RossF (11 Mar 2005)

So if you're reserve unit is going away on an exercize..you get to take your rifle with you outside of the armouries?


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## Da_man (11 Mar 2005)

RossF said:
			
		

> So if you're reserve unit is going away on an exercize..you get to take your rifle with you outside of the armouries?



We even took them downtown for the rememberance day parade


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2005)

Da_man said:
			
		

> But you never have the bolt in it.   Anyway CF members are not subject to the Canadian firearms law when on duty.



We always issue it with the bolt. It's just a club otherwise.


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## Lost_Warrior (11 Mar 2005)

> So if you're reserve unit is going away on an exercize..you get to take your rifle with you outside of the armouries?



Of course.   We take our rifles on every exercise we go on.   We have to drive through Montreal and past the city to get to the base we're going to train on (Usually ValCartier or Farnham)    Our rifles are in our hands and bolts in our vests the whole time.


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## Lost_Warrior (11 Mar 2005)

> We always issue it with the bolt. It's just a club otherwise.



Thats not what he means.  Of course you're issued a bolt with your rifle.  When we're in civilian areas, we take our bolts out (unless of course we're actually training in the civilian area)


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2005)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> Thats not what he means. Of course you're issued a bolt with your rifle. When we're in civilian areas, we take our bolts out (unless of course we're actually training in the civilian area)



Not everyone. I don't see much sense in carrying it in your pocket, and my guys don't. If they're being transported in bulk, the bolts are separated from the bags. That's about it.


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## brin11 (11 Mar 2005)

When we travel through urban areas we have our bolts in, mags out.  We have done training before in small towns with bolts/mags in with little old ladies walking by on the sidewalk staring at us.  Very strange environment to be in as we are so used to being hidden away in the field most of the time.


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## Freddy Chef (11 Mar 2005)

On exercise, usually you'll be on a CFB, or training area. The only law you have to worry about when you are on duty is the National Defence Act, which contains the QR&O's, and the CFAO's.

The law pertaining to transporting C-7, including civie environment? Weapon's security; loose your C-7, you go to Edmonton.


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## RossF (11 Mar 2005)

Interesting.

So will there ever be a case where you take your rifle home perhaps? (No mags of course)...just curious that's all.

-Ross


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## Lost_Warrior (11 Mar 2005)

> So will there ever be a case where you take your rifle home perhaps? (No mags of course)...just curious that's all.



Not a chance in hell.....unless of course your "home" is a barracks while on course...


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## Da_man (11 Mar 2005)

RossF said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> So will there ever be a case where you take your rifle home perhaps? (No mags of course)...just curious that's all.
> 
> -Ross




not an ice cube's chance in hell


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## RossF (11 Mar 2005)

hehe yea I figured as much, due to the risk of someone attaining ammunition for it I guess. It'd be kind of interesting though for my family to see all of what I'll be involved with. Oh well though!


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## Da_man (11 Mar 2005)

Being in the CF is not just about showing off you know.


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## Lost_Warrior (11 Mar 2005)

> It'd be kind of interesting though for my family to see all of what I'll be involved with. Oh well though!



Well, are you joining a Reserve or Reg Force unit?  I know my unit (a reserve unit) has a yearly "open house" where we do a dog and pony show for the civilian population, showing off all our kit and giving some demonstrations on what we do and what not.  Have them come in to one of those after you join.  They can see all the cool things you get to play with while on duty.  

I have some rather cool pics of my gf sitting in a G-Wagon and on the turret of a Coyote.


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## RossF (11 Mar 2005)

Da_man said:
			
		

> Being in the CF is not just about showing off you know.



I didn't think I said anything about showing off. Impressing my family with guns isn't on the top of my "To Do List". 

Nothing wrong with showing them what I'll be involved with.


edit: I'll be joining a reserve unit. Ya I went to an open house thing, but unfortuneatly only my grandpa, and my dad were there, not the rest of my family. Oh well :/


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## pbi (12 Mar 2005)

Where are we getting this idea that we have to take the bolts out of our weapons if we are carrying them off DND property?

 It sounds to me like somebody is confusing the regulations for bulk transport of weapons with normal common sense carriage of a weapon on duty, which is not directly regulated by the Criminal Code.  Our Bde has  conducted exercises off DND land on a number of occasions, using blank ammo: everybody had their bolts, in their weapons.

Taking the bolt out (except for bulk shipment) doesn't make any sense to me. If someone is bold enough to confront apparently armed troops and take their weapons, you can bet they're not scared to go through your vest or your pockets either. If that threat exists, then the correct procedure is either to avoid the area, or to have designated armed personnel with ball ammo and correctly authorized ROEs. In any case the local police and NIS should be informed. 

IMHO somebody is over-reacting, unless there is a specific local threat issue somewhere.

Cheers.


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## PPCLI Guy (12 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Taking the bolt out (except for bulk shipment) doesn't make any sense to me.



It is way easier to lose a bolt if it is in your pocket, and not in your weapon...

Dave


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## Lost_Warrior (12 Mar 2005)

It's our RSM's orders....being a little old Trooper, I'm not ready to start questioning why we should do it...I just do what i'm told..


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## Da_man (12 Mar 2005)

I guess it depends on where you are. Ive always traveled with the bolt out.


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## Zoomie (12 Mar 2005)

The only time that my bolt left the upper receiver of my C7 was during cleaning and just before turn-in at the lock-up.

Sounds like someone's RSM is a wee bit paranoid...


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## johnny_boy (13 Mar 2005)

In regards to taking the C7 home, no way. But I do believe there is one nordic country where the military members keep their weapons at home with them. Sweeden, Norway? I forget which, but I do remember it being mentioned one parade night.


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## X Royal (13 Mar 2005)

I believe the country you were referring to is Switzerland.


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## Harris (13 Mar 2005)

The troops in Norway have their weapon at home with them.


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## Spr.Earl (13 Mar 2005)

The only Country who. allows it's Forces to keep the arms wirh in their Abode is the Swis.
As too the Norskies nie !!


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## Gayson (14 Mar 2005)

Everytime I have gone into civvie land with my rifle I had my bolt in, sometimes with an empty mag in aswell.  

I have never seen any bad reactions from the civvies on the lake shore.


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## GO!!! (15 Mar 2005)

Sometimes, I put my bolt in my pocket.
Sometimes, I put my bolt in my gun.

But what if I'm wearing my combat pants and non - issue runners, but I'm in an army vehicle, but not on duty, with a PTshirt from another unit, and my bolt is in my coat pocket on the back seat and my rifle is leaning against the passenger side door and we run out of change going through the drive through at Timmy's - WHAT THEN??? Am I still subject to the CSD and the QR+O's?


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2005)

I gotta guess if you were issued your C7, your on duty. But your right, this is getting way to carried away. :


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## Da_man (15 Mar 2005)

What if your alone and *must* go to Timmy's?   Do you bring your rifle inside?  >


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## dutchie (15 Mar 2005)

The only instance I know of where you need to take your bolt (other than in lockup of course) is when in a civvie vehicle. We take a civvie bus to the traininig area, and have our rifles below, and bolts in our pockets. I think that may be a policy of the bus company.

Perhaps some CSMs/RSMs are a little paranoid about troops with weapons in public. I remember doing Warrior training below the Burrard Street Bridge in Vancouver. You'd have a Section of troops going through their drills (with a good amount of aggression   ), and some runner would come 'round the corner and nearly shit themselves. Funny stuff. Sadly, we don't do that anymore...


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## Lost_Warrior (16 Mar 2005)

> Sometimes, I put my bolt in my gun.



Its not a gun...its a RIFLE!


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## CBH99 (16 Mar 2005)

Thats what happened to me, my very first day in the reserves.

I was in a classroom with one other recruit, going through the basics of when we should show up, what to wear (Since we didn't have our combats issued yet), what times to show up by, how to sign in, etc, etc, etc.

They told us to leave the classroom, and wait for us just outside the door.  So we did, but when we opened the door there was a whole company doing house clearing and FIBUA drills, scared the shit out of me.  I opened the door to have 10 guys with rifles all yelling at me - scary when your a BRAND new recruit.  (This was in the basement of Mewata Armouries, in Calgary, AB.)


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## pbi (16 Mar 2005)

Da_man said:
			
		

> What if your alone and *must* go to Timmy's?     Do you bring your rifle inside?   >



If you can't leave a weapons guard in the vehicle, why not? I've done it while on exercise in BC-our company of AVGPs pulled up to a Tims and we went in. Cops do it all the time. Where does it say you can't carry your weapon in a restaurant?

Cheers.


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## johnny_boy (17 Mar 2005)

Taking the C7 into Timmy's... Man, if I was a civvie I might do a spit take with my coffee. Sure the police take their pistols in, but there is a slight size/intimidation difference between a C7 and a pistol.

Anyways, would we actually be allowed to take the rifle into to Timmy's for example, provided we were on duty and all that jazz? I mean, it just seems weird to me just because it is such a huge weapon. I could just see the employees hands go up as soon as you walk in "TAKE WHAT YOU WANT!" - "Um.... double double please?"


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## patt (17 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> If you can't leave a weapons guard in the vehicle, why not? I've done it while on exercise in BC-our company of AVGPs pulled up to a Tims and we went in. Cops do it all the time. Where does it say you can't carry your weapon in a restaurant?
> 
> Cheers.



then u might get some idiot that thinks ur holdin up the place...


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## Danjanou (17 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> If you can't leave a weapons guard in the vehicle, why not? I've done it while on exercise in BC-our company of AVGPs pulled up to a Tims and we went in. Cops do it all the time. Where does it say you can't carry your weapon in a restaurant?
> 
> Cheers.



The drive through closed or the roof too low to fit the AVGP turrets under? ;D


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## qor556 (18 Mar 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The drive through closed or the roof too low to fit the AVGP turrets under? ;D



Haha, we were told that military vehicles are not allowed to go through drive-throughs anymore actually. Something about there being too many cases where the vehicles took them out.  ;D Either that or they are discourging the frequent trips to Tim Hortons


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## BernDawg (18 Mar 2005)

But what if I'm wearing my combat pants and non - issue runners, but I'm in an army vehicle, but not on duty, with a PTshirt from another unit, and my bolt is in my coat pocket on the back seat and my rifle is leaning against the passenger side door and we run out of change going through the drive through at Timmy's - WHAT THEN??? Am I still subject to the CSD and the QR+O's?

What the f*ck?!?   Why would you be out of dress in a dnd (smp?) veh?   YOU ARE ALWAYS UNDER CSD AND QR+O'S! Wear your uniform properly and you can take your RIFLE anywhere on duty if it's issued.


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## Da_man (18 Mar 2005)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> But what if I'm wearing my combat pants and non - issue runners, but I'm in an army vehicle, but not on duty, with a PTshirt from another unit, and my bolt is in my coat pocket on the back seat and my rifle is leaning against the passenger side door and we run out of change going through the drive through at Timmy's - WHAT THEN??? Am I still subject to the CSD and the QR+O's?
> 
> What the f*ck?!?   Why would you be out of dress in a dnd (smp?) veh?   YOU ARE ALWAYS UNDER CSD AND QR+O'S! Wear your uniform properly and you can take your RIFLE anywhere on duty if it's issued.





I believe that it was a joke.


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## BernDawg (18 Mar 2005)

I certainly hope so. Because running out of change at the Tim's drive through is no laughing matter!


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## pbi (20 Mar 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The drive through closed or the roof too low to fit the AVGP turrets under? ;D



Actually the AVGPs were great for drive throughs. You just pulled alongside, passed the order and the money out through the side firing port, then took the goods in the same way. 

Cheers


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## my72jeep (20 Mar 2005)

On the subject of C7's and Tim Hortons.
this Sat 07:45 as I was at the Tim Hortons drive through in Borden 2 Young Res Pvt.s walk by me from the back of Canex OK, as I drive around the back I see a milcot parked, 2 C7's upright in the rack between the seats! no one in the truck! Tell me has the need for a coffee overridden all common sense and need for weapons security.in the few years that I've been out the Regs and the Pres?


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Mar 2005)

You should have called the MP's.  That is a major breach.  Not even out of sight out mind.


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## my72jeep (21 Mar 2005)

tried 
911 gets a civi dispatcher now and try to explain all I want is the MP's and know one else. Couldn't for the life of me remember the MP phone # and for the first time not one to be seen any where.


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## Danjanou (21 Mar 2005)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> On the subject of C7's and Tim Hortons.
> this Sat 07:45 as I was at the Tim Hortons drive through in Borden 2 Young Res Pvt.s walk by me from the back of Canex OK, as I drive around the back I see a milcot parked, 2 C7's upright in the rack between the seats! no one in the truck! Tell me has the need for a coffee overridden all common sense and need for weapons security.in the few years that I've been out the Regs and the Pres?



About a year ago I was walking down College Street in Toronto near the Police HQ and there was a squad car parked on the street, no big whoop right. For some reason I glanced in the back seat, as something caught my eye and there laying on the seat in plain view were a pair of AR-15s (or whatever variant their ETF are using) and a pump action. Sure the door was locked (at least I hope) but there was no cop around and how hard would it hae been to do a smash and grab, be across the street into college park mall and onto the Subway with them in a gym bag. I had my brief case with me and it's big enough to take a c-7 broken down I'm sure ( and no the thought never crossed my mind)

I was heading to my bank, but I just stood there and stared until eventually a cop came out of the building. I motioned him over, pointed in the back seat and just smiled before heading off to the bank. :
I have no idea how long they were there unattended.


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## Da_man (21 Mar 2005)

I saw a police van a while ago with the rear doors opened and a tactical shotgun hanging on the door   :-\     The officier was not too far but she was busy, anyone could have taken it.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (22 Mar 2005)

Keep in mind the police have considerably different training than the military and it is ingrained in the minds of soldiers that essentially your weapon is what will keep you alive.Dont quote me on this but I believe the loss of a firearm to a police officer would result in some sort of reprimand and administrative action where as a soldier may quite likely face jail time.

As for all the what ifs throughout this thread, your weapon should never leave your sight unless you designate someone specifically to watch it and even then if it goes missing,you are responsible.

When in public, bringing your weapon into civillian establishments will depend on your situation.If you have a person to watch them in a vehicle,chances are you are only bringing them in for the "look cool factor".In an aid to the civil power situation, then by all means sling your weapon.


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## NATO Boy (24 Mar 2005)

Da_man said:
			
		

> What if your alone and *must* go to Timmy's?     Do you bring your rifle inside?   >



Strictly opinion, but aren't there some sort of rules for this in a "Public Relations Act?"

I was told about this when my unit's Wpns Tech saw me walking in the Armoury with a US Becker Engineer knife strapped to my webbing. If the Public Relations Act (assuming it's real) is this strict on edged weapons/tools, I would believe they are much worse in terms of carrying a weapon around the public.


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## pbi (24 Mar 2005)

NATO Boy said:
			
		

> Strictly opinion, but aren't there some sort of rules for this in a "Public Relations Act?"
> 
> I was told about this when my unit's Wpns Tech saw me walking in the Armoury with a US Becker Engineer knife strapped to my webbing. If the Public Relations Act (assuming it's real) is this strict on edged weapons/tools, I would believe they are much worse in terms of carrying a weapon around the public.



The "Public Relations Act?" What exactly is that?

Cheers.


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## NATO Boy (25 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> The "Public Relations Act?" What exactly is that?



I don't know exactly; I'm just recalling what I was told: it's some sort of "doctrine" for how we should carry weapons (edged and projectile) in public. Things like how you should wear a Buck Knife with your uniform, not pointing your rifle at civilians in any manner, just little things like this. I'm sure somebody On here has heard this before (or if not, at least have a recollection of what I heard and maybe shed light on what this really is.)

My understanding was, alone or not, NO CF weapon (s) is/are to be taken into a public building unless the situation dictates otherwise (ie, you have orders from brigade that say you can...?) Besides, don't they get locked in the vehicle when transported (a la the LSVW outer compartments) or at least stored in rifle bags in a vehicle that isn't as securely locked?


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

Hey, do you want to buy 100 meters of firing line?


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Mar 2005)

While your at Stores I need a can of red Zero Beats for the 510 set. ;D

There is no PR policy, as you stated. Go to the guy that told you and say' Show me where that is written?" He can't.


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## pbi (25 Mar 2005)

I believe it's called the "Common Sense Act". As long as we follow current Security Orders (and our unit SOPs) we can carry our issued weapons pretty well anywhere that duty requires us to. There are some places that by tradition we don't, such as in a place of worship or in a Mess, but those are traditional practices and vary from place to place. That NCO was either a) having you on; or b) actually doesn't know what he's talking about.



Oh--umm-Infanteer----can I get some of that line?

Cheers


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## Navalsnpr (25 Mar 2005)

Check out the following publication on the DIN:  NDSP Ch 28 

I'm sure it may shed some light on the matter.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Mar 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> While your at Stores I need a can of red Zero Beats for the 510 set. ;D
> 
> There is no PR policy, as you stated. Go to the guy that told you and say' Show me where that is written?" He can't.



Since your at the QM get me a box of grid squares and a box of sky hooks ;D

Chimo!


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## BKells (25 Mar 2005)

And I'll need you to grab me a box of frequencies.


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## BernDawg (25 Mar 2005)

Don't they keep those right beside the left hand ratchets and the sparkplugs for the APC.


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## NATO Boy (25 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> I believe it's called the "Common Sense Act". As long as we follow current Security Orders (and our unit SOPs) we can carry our issued weapons pretty well anywhere that duty requires us to. There are some places that by tradition we don't, such as in a place of worship or in a Mess, but those are traditional practices and vary from place to place. That NCO was either a) having you on; or b) actually doesn't know what he's talking about.





			
				Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> Check out the following publication on the DIN: NDSP Ch 28
> 
> I'm sure it may shed some light on the matter.


kthx


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## Lost_Warrior (27 Mar 2005)

> Besides, don't they get locked in the vehicle when transported (a la the LSVW outer compartments) or at least stored in rifle bags in a vehicle that isn't as securely locked?



Never have I stored my rifle anywhere but right beside me when in a vehicle heading out for an exercise.

The last time I put my rifle in a storage area for transportation was on my BMQ.  The driver of the bus we rented requested the rifles be stored un the baggage compartment below.  Our bolts of course, were in our pockets.


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## Highland Lad (27 Mar 2005)

I recall one that still has me scratching my head...

We were on our way to Wainwright from Winnipeg via C-130 for MilCon a few years back. We all had our C1s (shows how 'few' years   ), with bolts in pocket, and we had to run our rifles through the X-ray machine... what was with that?


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## my72jeep (27 Mar 2005)

Highland Lad said:
			
		

> I recall one that still has me scratching my head...
> 
> We were on our way to Wainwright from Winnipeg via C-130 for MilCon a few years back. We all had our C1s (shows how 'few' years    ), with bolts in pocket, and we had to run our rifles through the X-ray machine... what was with that?


A cheep way to look for stress cracks?


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## Lost_Warrior (27 Mar 2005)

Yea, thats pretty strange.


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