# Re: Lieutenant



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:37:33 -0800*
5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?- are
>you talking about master corporal? or something else?
>7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
>  50‘s or 60‘s I think
Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited contribution to the
fray.
Brad Sallows
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"David Shih" <shihdc@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:37:52 -0330*
If its not a rank then what is it????
>From: "Bradley Sallows" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:37:33 -0800
>
>
>
>5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?- are
> >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
>
>Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited contribution to 
>the
>fray.
>
>Brad Sallows
>
>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:11:08 *
MCPL is an appointment not a rank right?
Pete
>From: "Bradley Sallows" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:37:33 -0800
>
>
>
>5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?- are
> >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
>
>Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited contribution to 
>the
>fray.
>
>Brad Sallows
>
>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:21:49 -0800*
>MCPL is an appointment not a rank right?
Yes.  This has some implications.  First, seniority includes time in rank TIR
as a Cpl.  I don‘t think this extends to pay increments.  Second, it means a
reserve Sgt who might be considered unemployable operationally as a MCpl due to
a simple lack of training equivalency, can drop rank down to Cpl.  This is
important whenever the policy is that reservists will only be permitted to drop
one rank level.
Brad Sallows
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:11:28 EST*
These comments add fuel to the old image of junior officers. People wonder 
why 
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:29:16 -0700*
Welcome Dan.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> These comments add fuel to the old image of junior officers. People wonder
> why
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:26:47 -0800*
Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this one..I
sense a debate
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bradley Sallows" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>
>
> 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?- are
> >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
>
> Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited contribution
to the
> fray.
>
> Brad Sallows
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Justin Bauer" <bauer_a63@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:17:52 -0000*
no i dont think so there is a reason why it is called being within the ranks or the junior ranks i could see being an officer being an appointment because they are not in the ranksGet Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:01:12 -0500*
If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t that
right Don?
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave newcombe" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
one..I
> sense a debate
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>
>
> >
> >
> > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?-
are
> > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> >
> > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited contribution
> to the
> > fray.
> >
> > Brad Sallows
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Larry <themcguins@sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:38 -0500*
I have been watching the debate on the MCpl issue the first ones in the regular
forces was in 1967 when Hellyer made all the privates Cpls. I know as I was one
of the original ones. Which should give an indication of my service. Some of you
said it was only an appointment and not a rank as far as I can remember
initially it was only an appointment but it was sometime in the early 70‘s when
it was made a rank the reason I am not sure on the date is I was promoted to Sgt
prior to this. I mean nothing deragatory but somebody said that was when the
reserves got their first so it would coincide with my memory that when they made
it a rank that the reserves would get it too.
Gow wrote:
> If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t that
> right Don?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave newcombe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>
> > Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
> one..I
> > sense a debate
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?-
> are
> > > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> > >
> > > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited contribution
> > to the
> > > fray.
> > >
> > > Brad Sallows
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> > message body.
>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:39:08 *
Really?? It was only in the 70‘s? I though it was earlier than that. Was 
that the only thing they changed in the rank structure at that time?
Pete
>From: "Gow" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:01:12 -0500
>
>If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t that
>right Don?
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "dave newcombe" 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
>Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>
>
> > Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
>one..I
> > sense a debate
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?-
>are
> > > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> > >
> > > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited 
>contribution
> > to the
> > > fray.
> > >
> > > Brad Sallows
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> > > message body.
> >
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>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:22:38 -0700*
Early 70s.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gow 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t that
> right Don?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave newcombe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>
>
> > Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
> one..I
> > sense a debate
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your insignia?-
> are
> > > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> > >
> > > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited
contribution
> > to the
> > > fray.
> > >
> > > Brad Sallows
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:23:47 -0700*
In the QR  Os, MCpl is an appointment not a rank.
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> I have been watching the debate on the MCpl issue the first ones in the
regular
> forces was in 1967 when Hellyer made all the privates Cpls. I know as I
was one
> of the original ones. Which should give an indication of my service. Some
of you
> said it was only an appointment and not a rank as far as I can remember
> initially it was only an appointment but it was sometime in the early 70‘s
when
> it was made a rank the reason I am not sure on the date is I was promoted
to Sgt
> prior to this. I mean nothing deragatory but somebody said that was when
the
> reserves got their first so it would coincide with my memory that when
they made
> it a rank that the reserves would get it too.
>
> Gow wrote:
>
> > If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t
that
> > right Don?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dave newcombe" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >
> > > Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
> > one..I
> > > sense a debate
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your
insignia?-
> > are
> > > > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > > > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > > > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> > > >
> > > > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited
contribution
> > > to the
> > > > fray.
> > > >
> > > > Brad Sallows
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > message body.
> >
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>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"David Shih" <shihdc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:34:03 -0330*
According to the QRO :
3.08  MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
1 The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may 
appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
2 The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
3 Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of 
seniority as corporals.
4 Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other 
corporals.
Even I didn‘t know this, on my GMT Course they called it a rank. The only 
appointments that I knew of at the time where of RSM, Drum Major, etc.
David
>From: "Donald Schepens" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:22:38 -0700
>
>Early 70s.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Gow 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:01 PM
>Subject: Re: Lieutenant
>
>
> > If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t 
>that
> > right Don?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dave newcombe" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >
> >
> > > Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
> > one..I
> > > sense a debate
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your 
>insignia?-
> > are
> > > > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > > > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > > > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> > > >
> > > > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited
>contribution
> > > to the
> > > > fray.
> > > >
> > > > Brad Sallows
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> >
>
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:09:07 -0700*
Interesting trying to understand the logic. I have a vague hunch not enough
to bet any money on that the reasoning is thus: in the old days, before
MCpls, a Sergeant could elect not to be tried by his Commanding Officer and
could elect to go before a General Court Marshall. Thefore it could take a
GCM to "bust" a Sergeant well, one who was substantiated in rank we also
had Lance Sergeants no extra pay and Acting Sergeants with full pay and
of course as temps they could be required to revert to lower rank Cpl
usually, but sometimes back to Pte.  As an "appointment" perhaps a MCpl
does not have the right that a Sgt and above had/has. Probably other
reasons, but this one comes to mind.
M. O‘Leary, are you able to receive this amongt all the chaff of late?
----- Original Message -----
From: David Shih 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: MCPL was Re: Lieutenant
> According to the QRO :
>
> 3.08 - MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
>
>
> 1 The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may
> appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
> 2 The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
> 3 Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of
> seniority as corporals.
> 4 Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other
> corporals.
>
> Even I didn‘t know this, on my GMT Course they called it a rank. The only
> appointments that I knew of at the time where of RSM, Drum Major, etc.
>
> David
>
> >From: "Donald Schepens" 
> >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >To: 
> >Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:22:38 -0700
> >
> >Early 70s.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Gow 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:01 PM
> >Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> >
> >
> > > If I recall correctly, we got our first MCpl‘s about 1970/71...isn‘t
> >that
> > > right Don?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "dave newcombe" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:26 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> > >
> > >
> > > > Excuse me?.....It sure seemed like one!  Could you elaborate on this
> > > one..I
> > > > sense a debate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bradley Sallows" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:37 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Lieutenant
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 5At what rank do you first get a little maple leaf in your
> >insignia?-
> > > are
> > > > > >you talking about master corporal? or something else?
> > > > > >7In what year was the rank of Master Corporal Introduced?
> > > > > >  50‘s or 60‘s I think
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, but Master Corporal is not a rank.  There‘s my limited
> >contribution
> > > > to the
> > > > > fray.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brad Sallows
> > > > >
> > > > >
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