# Military families against Afghan mission speak out



## McG (23 Oct 2006)

> Military families against Afghan mission speak out
> Allan Woods, CanWest News Service
> Published: Monday, October 23, 2006
> 
> ...


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## exsemjingo (23 Oct 2006)

I found this part interesting.


> He says he told his son several weeks ago, ''If you do not want to go, then don't go refuse to go and your parents will back you 100 per cent.''
> 
> ''He didn't answer me,'' Short says.


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## Baloo (23 Oct 2006)

> ''When my brother joined the military, he was a peacekeeper. Now he's killing off Taliban in Afghanistan and it's just opened my eyes and I don't agree with it.''



I'm sorry, but please.


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## muffin (23 Oct 2006)

Parents and siblings afraid for thier own... nothing new here.

I don't know why this makes the news... parents and a sister... my parents and sister never liked me being in - and still thinks my hubby is nuts... when hubby goes away his mom curses the news and government... but she always supports him.

Is it not natural that family would be concerned?!

You can't just support your soldiers when there is peace - they need the support more now then ever, and questioning thier mission is not the way to do it.

I feel like this is a dead horse and we've been flogging it for months now....


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Oct 2006)

Nothing like using your son or daughters commitment as a platform for your own idea's.


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## ex-Sup (23 Oct 2006)

''When my brother joined the military, he was a peacekeeper. Now he's killing off Taliban in Afghanistan and it's just opened my eyes and I don't agree with it.''

Okay, now I'm starting to get really frustrated. Where are people getting this...media? the education system? Well, I maybe not be able change the media, but I can make an impact. I know I'm only one teacher among many thousands, but I can change my little corner of the world. People's attitudes has helped me reflect on my own teaching and how I approach this topic in my Canadian history class.


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## George Wallace (23 Oct 2006)

> Similarly, the fighting in Afghanistan hit too close to home for the 22-year-old sister of a young soldier from Burlington, Ont., when his close friend, Pte. Josh Klukie, 23, stepped on a booby trap and was killed Sept. 29 in Kandahar's Panjwaii district.
> ''My eyes have been opened,'' says the young woman, who asked that she not be identified for fear it could cause problems for her brother. ''When my brother joined the military, he was a peacekeeper. Now he's killing off Taliban in Afghanistan and it's just opened my eyes and I don't agree with it.''



I suppose they never thought any of the mine strikes we suffered in Egypt, Sinai, Cyprus, Cambodia, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and all those other "Peacekeeping" missions were not as devastating to the members of the CF who suffered them?  Mines don't care who they kill or injure, in war or in peace.  The thing is to stop people like the Taliban from laying more mines, bombs, booby-traps, IEDs, VBIEDs, etc.


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## medicineman (23 Oct 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I suppose they never thought any of the mine strikes we suffered in Egypt, Sinai, Cyprus, Cambodia, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and all those other "Peacekeeping" missions were not as devastating to the members of the CF who suffered them?  Mines don't care who they kill or injure, in war or in peace.  The thing is to stop people like the Taliban from laying more mines, bombs, booby-traps, IEDs, VBIEDs, etc.



I'd hazard to guess even worse - we weren't really able to do anything about it, just had to stand there and take it as it were.  When I hear people that say their brother is  "a peacekeeper", it really opens my eyes  to just  how deluded people in this country really are.  I mean, dude, he joined the ARMY, not UNICEF.

I'm thinking CRIS is at least as prevalent in the civilian populace as it is in the civil service and the military.

MM


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## ProPatria Mike (23 Oct 2006)

I think what you are witnessing is the affects of the electronic world. 

People are more cognizant about what going on in Afghanistan, particularly those with vested intererests. 

Like their sons or dauighters.  No one even knew what we did in Kosovo, or Cyprus or a dozen other operational areas becasue they had no way of knowing. I'm not being critical, just stating a fact. There were no embedds, or example, or blogs. Someone mentioned something about using sons and daughters to exploit a political point but I do not think it is that simple. 

Not when it is there family on the line. 

I would suggest that their views should be considered then, deciding on your personal values, politely dismissed or embraced. 

Regardless, they must be tolerated. 

We owe their sons and daughters that much, yes?


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## Sub_Guy (23 Oct 2006)

However, right now Canadian troops spend about 90 per cent of their time engaged in combat and just 10 per cent on reconstruction and humanitarian efforts, while a winning formula should be the opposite, according to Walter Dorn, a professor of peacekeeping at the Royal Military College. Dorn teaches majors, generals and combat commanders who have served in Afghanistan.

Am I foolish to think that if you have 90% doing reconstruction, and 10% in combat (security) there would be mass carnage?  I would like to think that you need a SECURE area to reconstruct, and you get that through COMBAT (or presence of force).... I may be a SAILOR with my only infantry experience coming from Hollywood and the Sony Playstation, but it doesn't make sense for anyone to send out reconstruction teams into an unsecure zone............  Perhaps I need to spend more time watching NDP approved movies like Hugging Private Ryan.


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## HollywoodHitman (23 Oct 2006)

People fail to understand that unless there is stability, the construction efforts are for the most part a waste of money.

This type of reporting is nothing new for the MSM although to be fair there are some amongst them that don't just want to stir up negative feelings against the mission. 

People's tunes will change when we are attacked on our own soil, and then people will be crying for us to do more than we have been. As for people joining as Peacekeeping.......Get a grip. A soldier who joins thinking they're only going to hand out candy and give out medicine and blankets, WILL be set straight during their training..........If they like it they stay, if the don't they'll get out. Peacekeeping is something we do, not something we are. You cannot have peace without warriors.


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## medicineman (23 Oct 2006)

I wonder if said "peacekeeping expert" has actually served on a mission or just stayed at the Holiday Inn Express while writing his dissertaion...

MM


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## tlg (23 Oct 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I wonder if said "peacekeeping expert" has actually served on a mission or just stayed at the Holiday Inn Express while writing his dissertaion...
> 
> MM



HERE HERE MM

Now I don't know about you, but when you folks signed on the dotted line when joining, were you not told about the dangers of the job and how it could include everything up to and including death? I sure as hell understood it at the end of the interview. I understood it before I went for any of the tests. I'm signing up to be a soldier, it's not a prissy job, it takes guts and skill and the acceptance that the next tour, operation, mission, patrol, I go on, I may not come back from. Personally, knowing that is going to make me fight harder to come back from the said tour, etc. alive.

Just my thoughts.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Oct 2006)

Walter Dorn = UN cheerleader

Bio here: http://www.rmc.ca/academic/poli-econ/dorn/index_e.html

I find myself wondering how these families "came forward"?  Did the media seek them out, or did a small group of politically motivated (hence the reference to the NDP and Taliban Jack) decide to play the media card?  My family includes people from a variety of political viewpoints - none of them speak for me, however.


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## niner domestic (23 Oct 2006)

Wow, I am absolutely stunned by the family member's comments and total disregard for their child/sibling's sense of duty and answering their calling.  In juxtaposition there are those families that must bear the loss of their loved one and have done so with courage and fortitude even in their grief. 

Yet, amongst the unbearable grief these families must endure, the words of Mrs Reid about her son, Christopher, rang out clear and strong.  In the greatest depths of her grief, Mrs  Reid reminded me what it was to be a True Canadian.  I don't stop at just what Mrs Reid had to say but for each and every grieving family,  for they too, remind me what it is to be a True Canadian.   Each family has in their own way spoken to what it is to be Canadian. They have reminded me that we as Canadians, in the essence of their sons or daughter, believe in the very freedoms others take for granted or attempt to deny.  Each family has spoken about their loved one having a strong sense of justice, and wanting to just make the world a better place and a safer place.   They spoke of the rights we as humanity have come to long for and gain and the never ending requirement to defend these rights as well as protect them. These families have epitomized what being a True Canadian is all about.  That even in their sorrow and heartache, they speak no ill of the makers of these troubled times, they fling no insults at the governments but instead speak about  honour, courage and duty.

As a Canadian, along with the global perception that we are all just "friendly folks" or in the case of the military - "just peacekeepers", I want to also be known by the virtues and attributes that these families have extoled in their loved ones... I want to be known as a brave Canadian who will fear not the fearful world situations but work in my own way to solve them.  I want to be known as an honourable Canadian, one who along with my countrymen can be trusted to keep our word and always to do the right thing.  I want to be the courageous Canadian, who will not run in the face of adversity but stay until there is no need for me to remain, the job is done.  I want to be known as a Canadian that will always put my duty to my Country ahead of selfish motives.  That when my Country calls upon me, regardless of the task, I will respond but more so that as  Canadian that has a duty to make the world a safer and better place.  

What these families have reminded me of is that the virtues of Honour, Courage and Duty are not exclusively in the domain of a Canadian Forces member but rather that represent what my Country is as a whole, down to the individual.  We, Canadians are unique in that when we are faced with adversity, or in the sad case of these families and their grief, we speak and demonstrate as Mrs Reid did,  our neverending ability to draw upon our own courage, honour and duty.   

To me, that is what being Canadian is all about.  We've had our identity and spirit all along - we just needed to be reminded of it.   I can only hope that these families that quickly put their own fears ahead of what their child or sibling has chosen to do as the right thing, will realize that the most loving thing they can give their child is their unconditional support.


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## Journeyman (23 Oct 2006)

I suggest those not familiar with Dorn's self-promoting view of the UN [he is regularly on their gravy train as an "expert"], need look no further than several letters from his RMC colleagues, written to the _Canadian Military Journal_:





> *Walter Dorn remains convinced that there is no life after or outside of the United Nations.... Given the events of 9/11, even the die-hard Canadian liberal left has moved on to a more reasoned and responsible position regarding Canada’s place in the world. Dorn has not.
> 
> ....as an academic he must prove his point in reasoned argument, well supported by evidence, and demonstrating maturity and a sense of proportion. Evidently, all three hallmarks of academic responsibility are missing in Dorn’s most recent contribution to our national security debate.*


http://www.journal.dnd.ca/engraph/Vol7/no2/02-Letters_e.asp

As for his experience, his bio claims it to be "extensive"


> He has extensive experience in field missions. In 1999, he was a district electoral officer with the United Nations Mission in East Timor. He also served with the UN in Ethiopia (UNDP project) and at UN headquarters as a Training Adviser with UN's Department of Peacekeeping Operations. He carried out research in conflict areas in Central and South America, Africa and South East Asia.


http://www.rmc.ca/academic/poli-econ/dorn/index_e.html
Anyone familiar with UN Civilian Staff will read this as, "watched an election and hung around a UNDP headquarters. Did some academic tourism trying to provide scholarly credibility [lambasted by his peers above]." 

:


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## medicineman (23 Oct 2006)

I would go even further to say that they were grossly overpaid and on a "war" vacation/sightseeing tour.

But I'm not overly bitter...much.

MM


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## Journeyman (24 Oct 2006)

Even Romeo Dallaire seems to have caught on that mythical UN-style peacekeeping is a non-starter

*Dallaire: Peacekeeping doesn’t work these days*


> EDMONTON (CP) — Canada must follow through with its mission in Afghanistan, Sen. Romeo Dallaire says.
> 
> The retired general .... said people must give up on the notion of the Canadian military as a peacekeeping force......The Canadian army hasn’t been in peacekeeping for the last 15 years. Ambiguity and complexity are now the norm.


http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/536082.html


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## ProPatria Mike (24 Oct 2006)

I always thought peace through superior firepower was an effective tool. 

Peacekeeping is just that, the percieved threat of what is to come should the peacekeeper be attacked is one of the greatest deterrents... . 

Once the battle is won, brothers, I suggest that peacekeeping will become the norm again and that we had best be damn good at it. 

One only has to look at Iraq to see how far and how fast the situation would decline without an adequate peacekeeping force to keep the tribes from slitting each others throats... or outright civil war. 

The same thing will happen in Afghanistan.

As it has been happening for centuries, I might add.


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## a_majoor (24 Oct 2006)

To the family and friends of those who fell, and to those who worry about our brothers and sisters in arms "over there", take solace in the words of the man who requested our help in the first place:



> If the greatness of life is measured in deeds done for others, then Canada's sons and daughters who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan stand among the greatest of their generation,"  Hamid Karzai, President of Afghanistan



That is how they would wish to be remembered


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## 3rd Herd (24 Oct 2006)

In exclusive interviews with CanWest News Service.................
says it all folks


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## niner domestic (24 Oct 2006)

I had James Finan as a Professor, I have no doubt if he was troubled with the contribution of Dorn, then there are serious academic reasons as to why.


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## HollywoodHitman (24 Oct 2006)

+1 3rdHerd


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## Blakey (24 Oct 2006)

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2006/10/24/pf-2114439.html


> "Our boys are getting our asses kicked and could be dying in vain because things aren't getting better," said Wilson. "I grieve for all the families who must feel this same frustration."


Are we?, getting our_@sses kicked_.


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## Trooper Hale (24 Oct 2006)

How would the serving member feel about their families saying these sort of things? No wonder his son didnt respond when he told him he didnt have to go and that he'd support him not going, Son must have felt betrayed, embarrassed and let down. My mum and i talked about this, while she opposes Iraq and Afghanistan she's promised to never bring me into the debate. 
Do these people feel they'r doing us all a favour by talking to media and using sons and daughters as leverage for their own agenda's? Its pretty disgraceful i reckon, especially with the NDP slant to it as well.


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## exsemjingo (25 Oct 2006)

I thought of a term the other day for what these detractors would like us to do: The Icestorm-army.
Basically just wait around for nasty weather in Quebec and Ontario as our main function, not just a small part of our it.
What do you all think?


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## HollywoodHitman (25 Oct 2006)

The answer to a question above, wondering whether we are getting our asses kicked.......A short answer is no. We have not lost an engagement with the enemy since we began working there. This is not to say that casualties and deaths do not occur on both sides, but as we have become accustomed to saying, the cost of doing business is not just bullets and bombs.

Family members who are speaking out against the mission while their loved ones are overseas are doing them a great disservice. The soldier believes in what he/she is doing, yet you do not? How is publicly expressing your disappointment or displeasure at their CHOSEN path, supporting them? You have no idea the negative effect you are likely having on them emotionally. There are consequences to not having your mind in the game because they're worried that their families don't approve of THEIR choices to serve honourably.  They will likely never tell you, the emotional roller coaster they are on ANYWAY, without the pressure of hearing this kind of tripe in the media. 

Shame on those doing it, and shame on the bottom feeders who continually seek out and publish this type of story to further their own agendas.


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## exsemjingo (26 Oct 2006)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> There are consequences to not having your mind in the game because they're worried that their families don't approve of THEIR choices to serve honourably.  They will likely never tell you, the emotional roller coaster they are on ANYWAY, without the pressure of hearing this kind of tripe in the media.


This actually bothers soldiers?  I never thought of it that way.  When my family gets bothered by news from Afghanistan, I just feel sorry for them.


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## HollywoodHitman (29 Oct 2006)

I think it bothers everyone on some level. I too feel sorry for those who don't understand, only because they're not soldiers.....

Anyway, it was a thought and obviously not applicable to everyone in all situations. I was lucky......I had amazing support.


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## McG (29 Oct 2006)

exsemjingo said:
			
		

> This actually bothers soldiers?  I never thought of it that way.


Yes.  See my thoughts from the NDP thread, and then imagine the position of a soldier that has family talking like this.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Mr Layton, ... You do discourage the troops.  Nothing was more discouraging that being over there and seeing people like yourself postulating that my friends & coworkers were dieing for a frivolous & unappreciated cause (especially groups the CPA that goes so far as to call us war criminals; why is it you are willing to speak for thier events?).


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## CdnArtyWife (29 Oct 2006)

WRT the 90/10% thing... I am surprised that this strategy was not in place earlier...I mean really, WWII would have ended alot sooner and the Nazis would have backed off if London was under reconstruction whilst in the midst of the Blitz, correct??

C'mon people...Peacekeeping is dead. Peacemaking is the deal now.

My hubby is on the TF, and though he had no worries about me and what I'd say, he has been coaching and instructing his parents to say only positive things like: "He's doing what he believes in", "This is what he trained for", etc...he knows they don't agree with the situation, nor are they happy he is going. But they understand that under no circumstances are they to say anything negative WRT the mission. They support him, and by supporting him they will respect his wishes. 

If those parents and sisters were my family, I would be angry, but mostly dissapointed in them. It is one thing to have an oppinion, but there are appropriate times and places to talk about it. I don't believe an exclusive interview with Global News Media is one of them.


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## Blakey (29 Oct 2006)

I realy don't know how I'd feel if this was my mother.... ???
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/537343.html


> Soldier’s mom joins marchers in Halifax; rally held in Antigonish
> Military mom Andria Lehr told the crowd that Ottawa’s Afghan mission is "basically wrong, inhumane, unconstructive and unsustainable." She urged other people with loved ones in the Armed Forces to question Canada’s military action in Afghanistan.
> 
> "Only by asking questions can we actually have a true democracy," Ms. Lehr said.


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## Cloud Cover (29 Oct 2006)

PB&J said:
			
		

> I realy don't know how I'd feel if this was my mother.... ???
> http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/537343.html



As a mother, she put her best years into raising her child. She has earned the right to speak up and/or speak out because she has a direct stake in an potential outcome probably unthinkable to her only a few years ago.


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## Wookilar (30 Oct 2006)

Her "child" is an adult, capable of making their own decisions. Some of these people need to loosen the apron strings. 

Either you have faith in what you taught your kids (speaking as a parent of two) and will support them as best you can, or you think you "went wrong" somewhere. 

My wife has no desire whatsoever for me to go to A'stan. Neither does my Mom (or any other family member/friend). However, they are very aware that I am ready to go at the drop of a floppy hat and would never say anything in public that would go against what I believe in. To do so would be just plain disrespectful of myself and what I have worked so hard for.

I think that these people should be re-evaluating their positions and stop pushing their personal agendas by using their family members to give them some sort of legitimacy.

If you want to speak out against the war (that is what the war is all about, after all, *freedom*) that's fine, but do so on your own two feet, not the backs of your sons and daughters.


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## Babbling Brooks (30 Oct 2006)

> I think that these people should be re-evaluating their positions and stop pushing their personal agendas by using their family members to give them some sort of legitimacy.
> 
> If you want to speak out against the war (that is what the war is all about, after all, freedom) that's fine, but do so on your own two feet, not the backs of your sons and daughters.



Bingo.  Couldn't have said it better.


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## MEV (31 Oct 2006)

*"However, they are very aware that I am ready to go at the drop of a floppy hat and would never say anything in public that would go against what I believe in. To do so would be just plain disrespectful of myself and what I have worked so hard for."*​
This is so true. I have told my family not to talk with the media when I go. I have made it very clear that talking about how the war is wrong etc is disrespectful of myself and *also of them*. They raised me to beleive that protecting the weak, the poor, the innocent and fighting for democracy is the right thing to do. If they talk behind my back while I am gone, then obviously they failed. I would lose all respect for them. Our relations would become very frosty.  ​


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## exsemjingo (31 Oct 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> As a mother, she put her best years into raising her child. She has earned the right to speak up and/or speak out because she has a direct stake in an potential outcome probably unthinkable to her only a few years ago.



She only had that chance because a soldier erarned it for her.  She should be proud that her son is nobler than she could ever be.
As far as being unthinkable, well, far worse wars have snuck up on mothers more naive than she is.


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## justawife (31 Oct 2006)

The following is a letter written from my husband once he left his FOB for good and was in KAF before coming home at the end of his tour (Jan-Aug/06) I think the email says it all. I AM PROUD OF HIM AND EVERY SOLDIER!!!! 

 looks like living in the sticks has it drawbacks lol. Is that mean that the 
tv is down too lol? Oh well, I can say this baby, i love you and no matter 
what, doesn't matter if we have to move into a cardboard box, I love you.  

I almost feel euphoric, like i am on drugs or something, all dopey, I am 
coming home, and I have no more worries, no more edge, like i am coming down 
off a caffeine rush. It feels good though to be like that, my actions no 
matter what i do right now, does not hold a life in the balance, either my 
own, or somebody else's. i feel proud of what we have accomplished here, we 
have done a tough job, to make the world a better place, not only for these 
people, but what happens in one place in the world, affects us all, and 
knowing that I have done some good, despite the loss of fellow soldiers, and 
the casualties, I am proud. I am still a soldier baby, but i think I will 
be a much better husband and father when i come home. Not that I felt that i 
was a bad one. Heck i think i am rambling, i am tired, i have had to stay 
awake when there were times when all i wanted to do was sleep, but i 
couldn't, life depended on it. I had to be alert, when there were times i 
wanted to daydream and think about home, but i couldn't, because again, life 
depended on it. Crazy ain't it, to live like that, but that is what a 
soldier sometimes has to endure honey, a fellow soldier, a comrade, a 
friend, is hurt or killed, but you have to suck it up, there is no time for 
loss or grievance, cuz once again, life depends on it. Wow, its gonna be 
great to not have to worry about life for awhile, and just enjoy it. Do you 
understand now maybe why I talk the way I do, I am not sad, I am happy, 
proud, and anxious to get home. Oh you are finally back on, so i send this 
now, love you baby


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