# Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:19:39 -0700*
Brad from Ian:
You state, in my words, that the job of a CO is pretty much the same
whether the unit is small enough to be commanded by a Major or large
enough to be commanded by a LCol and therefore they all deserve to be of
the higher rank based on the workload. You may not consider it a valid
argument, but for about 150 years in the UK and Canada, likely
elsewhere, we have had smaller independent units commanded by Majors in
both peace and war. In my limited reading I have never seen examples
cited that convinced me that so-and-so would have done a better job or
that his unit would have performed better if only he could have been
that one rank higher, ie. that his lack of rank prevented him from
performing his duties. I think from my low perspective that Majors
have little difficulty elbowing out their seniors LColsin order to see
that their units get what they deserve from "the system". Can‘t think of
any other valid reason for not having Majors as COs. I can, however,
think of several Majors in units not infy/armd who have taken their
smaller units and increased their effective strength and performance
to the point that their unit was given battalion status and the CO
consequently promoted.Ref. what are now 20 FD Regt RCA and 8 FD
Engineers, come to mind from personal memory. If it‘s all a question of
money "what is a ‘fair wage‘" for the responsibility, then that opens up
Pandora‘s Box of how wage rates are decided. I don‘t know of ANY trade
or profession that most members within feel they are not underpaid.
Would seem obvious that for one RSSO a PRes unit could have several
Class A officers instead. I suppose the problem is that so much of what
a RSSO does, as either Adj, Ops O or whatever requires him/her to be at
his/her ‘desk‘ from 9-4 Mon-Fri mainly because to get anything done
requires contact with the Reg Force "base weinies" who ONLY work
bankers‘ hours. Remember, the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor on a Sunday -
they weren‘t stupid. Perhaps what is needed is a little imaginative
thinking outside the box. It‘s only monopolies ie. those who don‘t
"serve" their public that keep bankers‘ hours.
Bradley Sallows wrote:
> 
> I think the QRO posted on the WWW include the latest pay increases tables are
> dated 05 Oct 2000.  The accumulated pay of a Class A LCol, assuming 60 days
> paraded for year and a 3-year appointment, would be $35859.60.  This does not
> include PILL "vacation pay", and assumes the CO is promoted on appointment
> ie. starts at the lowest pay scale.  For a Maj, the bill would be $30,982.80.
> The difference of $4876.80 average $1625.60 per year would be the equivalent
> of 48 funded days for planning purposes the rate used in my neck of the woods
> is $101.00.  So over 3 years, we could save just a little more than a month‘s
> salary for a Reg F Capt with 2 years‘ prior service as Capt or lay on one extra
> half-day per year for 32 people.
> 
> As implied by Mike, the net savings would most likely be slightly larger due to
> a commensurate decrease in rank levels all around, which would also push down
> the daily rate planning figure.
> 
> Two observations which I always have when this discussion arises:
> 
> 1 What exactly is "fair wage" for the person charged with stewardship of a
> reserve unit?
> 
> 2 There is so much variation in unit size that I don‘t see how a Maj appointed
> CO of a minor unit is necessarily doing less work or carrying less
> responsibility than a LCol of a major unit.  They typically have all the same
> headaches with which to deal.  I suppose they should either all be LCol or all
> be Maj.
> 
> Brad Sallows
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 07:29:41 -0700*
Don‘t forget, that at the present time in the Reserve this  hasn‘t been
changed yet despite many people wishing it was, there is an oveabundance of
senior staff to train senior leaders in case something goes wrong.
----- Original Message -----
From: dave 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 12:47 AM
Subject: RE: Traditions
>
> Just as a point to ponder, considering the topic.
> Wouldn‘t it be better training, for an Officer, if he were in command of a
> large company, rather than a small Battalion?  A Major, in command of a
full
> strengthor as close as we can getCompany, would be better employed, than
a
> LCol with a small Battalion.
>
> Have a reserve regt. perpetuated by a comp. sized formation.  Still
> retaining the name and honors of the former unit.  Organized and funded as
a
> company, it should be more efficient to run.
> Perhaps this would allow the formation of units in smaller urban
> centers???????
>
> I think It would be terrible, if the proud Regiments of Canada, are
allowed
> to disappear.  They represent the history of our country, and must be
> allowed to thrive.  I think the cost of maintaining thier identities will
> never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
>
> Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
>
> CHIMO
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:48:51 -0800*
>the job of a CO is pretty much the same whether the unit is small enough to be
commanded by a Major or large enough to be commanded by a LCol
Not exactly.  The job of a CO of a _reserve_ unit seems pretty much the same
regardless of the nominal unit size.  I obviously only say this from
observation, not experience.  Much more depends on the unit location than its
size designation eg. proximity to supporting base and training areas,
colocation in a garrison with other units to share duties and responsibilities,
etc.
>and therefore they all deserve to be of the higher rank based on the workload.
I intended to suggest they should all be LCol, or all be Maj.  We could just as
easily bump everyone down as bump everyone up.
>smaller independent units commanded by Majors
On active service, presumably these were not reserve cadres.  There is
definitely a difference between a wartime battalion of 800  and a wartime
company of maybe 150.
>his unit would have performed better if only he could have been that one rank
higher
I certainly didn‘t suggest performance was based on rank.  I did suggest that
the job of a CO overseeing a unit of 50 people is not inherently less
time-consuming and demanding than overseeing a unit of 150 people.  Why?
Because they both must attend all the same conferences, their units have more or
less the same red tape burden, they both have to deal with the same issues at
CO‘s level, they both in most cases have to wrestle with the NPF books, etc.
I don‘t think the base work load of a unit varies much with size.  The
additional work required to manage more people is usually dealt with by the unit
officers.
>If it‘s all a question of money "what is a ‘fair wage‘" for the responsibility,
then that opens up Pandora‘s Box of how wage rates are decided.
Perhaps it‘s time for some pay reform.  Should there be fixed minimum pay scales
for all key appointments eg. CO, DCO, RSM, OC, CSM, Pl Comd, Pl WO for which
the individual has all qualifications except time-in?  I suppose that there are
a number of LCol out there who are overseeing fewer people than some of the Maj.
Equal pay for equal work?
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:24:04 -0800*
>In theory I think the idea of reducing ranks to save cash is a great idea.
It would save some money.  Someone should crunch the numbers to determine
exactly how much.  If I have time, perhaps I will.  Use the following
assumptions for which ranks are permitted for various positions: Maj=CO
Capt=DCO, Ops O, Coy OC Lt=Pl Comd, Coy 2I/C, all other regimental staff
officers.  I don‘t see any justice inflicting a pay reduction on the other
ranks.  Note that the influence of the Reg F Capt should increase.  Perhaps the
position could be permanently altered to C-Lt, or even Lt.  Using Reg F Lt would
save even more money than reducing PRes ranks.
>It would be great to amalgamate the regiments into two bn 1 eng, 1 fr and do
some
real training.
I am curious what this "real training" is that everyone talks about.  First, I
suspect the number of units that have achieved platoon level BTS with sufficient
regularity to proceed to company BTS is small.  That is a significant
limitation.  Regardless, nothing stops two units from co-operating eg. you
provide a platoon for my ex, and I‘ll provide a platoon for yours.  In effect,
I doubt there is any training an amalgamated battalion can do that independent
units with a single company each can‘t do.  If we don‘t step outside the BTS
loop it will be a while before any significant P Res combined arms ex occurs.
The best opportunity for combined arms is augmentation to a Reg F ex.  IMHO, the
only activity that would look better is a battalion parade.
Essentially, all amalgamation into a fully-staffed battalion does is eliminate
some redundant positions: COs, DCOs, RSMs, and Adjts and perhaps some members
of Ops/Trg staffs, BOR staffs, and Log staffs.  This is purely a money issue,
not a training one.  If battalions amalgamate, the P Res savings will be dwarfed
by the elimination of the redundant Reg F positions - provided counter-arguments
are not made that the larger battalions require more Reg F staff.
Maybe the real goal should be to reduce Reg F positions in the P Res so that the
funds for those positions can be moved back into the field force.  This does not
seem to be the direction we are taking - I haven‘t looked at all the ARE, but my
impression is units will have more Reg F staff, not less.
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:11:33 -0700*
Actually, there‘s not a whole heck of a lot of regimental identity
that‘s paid for out of public expense, unless it‘s Reg Force. Even
things like unit distinct cap badges, it‘s getting again, shades of the
early 1970s so that the DND Supply system refuses to re-order without
political pressure being applied.  I know one PRes unit guess which
one?? that could place an order for 300-500 cap badges for themselves
and their affiliated cadet corps and DND system has told them to go to
**** , hubs and dies "lost/sold" etc. and won‘t be replaced.
dave wrote:
> 
snip, snip..
 I think the cost of maintaining thier identities will
> never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
> 
> Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
> 
> CHIMO
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:28:30 -0700*
You start by disagreeing with me and then continue on to agree with what
I said??
Bradley Sallows wrote:
> 
> >the job of a CO is pretty much the same whether the unit is small enough to be
> commanded by a Major or large enough to be commanded by a LCol
> 
> Not exactly.  The job of a CO of a _reserve_ unit seems pretty much the same
> regardless of the nominal unit size.  I obviously only say this from
> observation, not experience.  Much more depends on the unit location than its
> size designation eg. proximity to supporting base and training areas,
> colocation in a garrison with other units to share duties and responsibilities,
> etc.
> 
> >and therefore they all deserve to be of the higher rank based on the workload.
> 
> I intended to suggest they should all be LCol, or all be Maj.  We could just as
> easily bump everyone down as bump everyone up.
> 
> >smaller independent units commanded by Majors
> 
> On active service, presumably these were not reserve cadres.  There is
> definitely a difference between a wartime battalion of 800  and a wartime
> company of maybe 150.
> 
> >his unit would have performed better if only he could have been that one rank
> higher
> 
> I certainly didn‘t suggest performance was based on rank.  I did suggest that
> the job of a CO overseeing a unit of 50 people is not inherently less
> time-consuming and demanding than overseeing a unit of 150 people.  Why?
> Because they both must attend all the same conferences, their units have more or
> less the same red tape burden, they both have to deal with the same issues at
> CO‘s level, they both in most cases have to wrestle with the NPF books, etc.
> I don‘t think the base work load of a unit varies much with size.  The
> additional work required to manage more people is usually dealt with by the unit
> officers.
> 
> >If it‘s all a question of money "what is a ‘fair wage‘" for the responsibility,
> then that opens up Pandora‘s Box of how wage rates are decided.
> 
> Perhaps it‘s time for some pay reform.  Should there be fixed minimum pay scales
> for all key appointments eg. CO, DCO, RSM, OC, CSM, Pl Comd, Pl WO for which
> the individual has all qualifications except time-in?  I suppose that there are
> a number of LCol out there who are overseeing fewer people than some of the Maj.
> Equal pay for equal work?
> 
> Brad Sallows
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:09:14 -0800*
>You start by disagreeing with me and then continue on to agree with what I
said??
That wasn‘t my impression.
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:15:02 -0700*
That is my point of view, more or less, as well. Problem is, I think,
reality is gonna set in sooner, or later, and the blood letting will begin.
As I stated before, I don‘t mind so much, being amalgamated, re-organized,
even God forbid re-tasked for example as an AA unit. My fear is the
Units with all these traditions simply disappearing. That is going to suck
big time.
Ubique
MacF
================================================================
With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are
attainable.
Thomas E. Buxton
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 12:47 AM
Subject: RE: Traditions
>
> Just as a point to ponder, considering the topic.
> Wouldn‘t it be better training, for an Officer, if he were in command of a
> large company, rather than a small Battalion?  A Major, in command of a
full
> strengthor as close as we can getCompany, would be better employed, than
a
> LCol with a small Battalion.
>
> Have a reserve regt. perpetuated by a comp. sized formation.  Still
> retaining the name and honors of the former unit.  Organized and funded as
a
> company, it should be more efficient to run.
> Perhaps this would allow the formation of units in smaller urban
> centers???????
>
> I think It would be terrible, if the proud Regiments of Canada, are
allowed
> to disappear.  They represent the history of our country, and must be
> allowed to thrive.  I think the cost of maintaining thier identities will
> never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
>
> Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
>
> CHIMO
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:23:43 -0700*
I haven‘t whined for awhile, so here it goes...... the special pay scale for
key appointments is an interesting concept..... except the idea that you
have the quals, and not time in. I was a TSM Plt WO for 5 yrs, which also
included taking over for the BSM, when he wasn‘t around. BUT I never got a
promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time rquired to
go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then. They were
getting more than their money‘s worth out of me - a WOs/MWOs job, at a
Sergeant‘s pay. It didn‘t bother me a bit though, really. I did a pretty
good job, and was so proud of myself, pay wasn‘t too much of an issue. A
little resentful of the system, where people with no jobs, or no civvy
responsibilities were better able to attend course than people with good
jobs and careers.
MacF
================================================================
> Perhaps it‘s time for some pay reform.  Should there be fixed minimum pay
scales
> for all key appointments eg. CO, DCO, RSM, OC, CSM, Pl Comd, Pl WO for
which
> the individual has all qualifications except time-in?  I suppose that
there are
> a number of LCol out there who are overseeing fewer people than some of
the Maj.
> Equal pay for equal work?
>
> Brad Sallows
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:38:24 -0800*
>the special pay scale for key appointments is an interesting concept.....
except the idea that you have the quals, and not time in.
This occurred to me, but I feel better now knowing that at least one other
person sees the potential injustice to someone who performs well at a job for
which they are underranked.
My main misgiving is the minor potential for abuse putting someone
substantially underranked and underqualified into a position simply to pad their
pay.
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:32:20 -0700*
Really, what we need is something which happens in the Regular Force
sometimes, Acting Pay While So Employed WSE.  there would probably have to
be a minimum consecutive time covering the job.
----- Original Message -----
From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> I haven‘t whined for awhile, so here it goes...... the special pay scale
for
> key appointments is an interesting concept..... except the idea that you
> have the quals, and not time in. I was a TSM Plt WO for 5 yrs, which
also
> included taking over for the BSM, when he wasn‘t around. BUT I never got a
> promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time rquired to
> go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then. They were
> getting more than their money‘s worth out of me - a WOs/MWOs job, at a
> Sergeant‘s pay. It didn‘t bother me a bit though, really. I did a pretty
> good job, and was so proud of myself, pay wasn‘t too much of an issue. A
> little resentful of the system, where people with no jobs, or no civvy
> responsibilities were better able to attend course than people with good
> jobs and careers.
> MacF
> ================================================================
>
>
> > Perhaps it‘s time for some pay reform.  Should there be fixed minimum
pay
> scales
> > for all key appointments eg. CO, DCO, RSM, OC, CSM, Pl Comd, Pl WO for
> which
> > the individual has all qualifications except time-in?  I suppose that
> there are
> > a number of LCol out there who are overseeing fewer people than some of
> the Maj.
> > Equal pay for equal work?
> >
> > Brad Sallows
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:23:46 -0700*
on 17/11/00 18:23, The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
> BUT I never got a
> promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time rquired to
> go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then.
Lemme get this straight. The reserve 6B course your your MOC was written to
eat up 6 weeks of soldier‘s spare time?
What about the TSM that attended and passed the course? I might be going out
on a limb here, but... I‘ll bet something gets taught on those courses to
make a soldier do the job a little better. In my opinion, if you don‘t have
the free time to get qualified according to the specification for your MOC,
then you don‘t get the big bucks that accompany the glory of doing the job.
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:23:49 -0700*
Unfortuneately, with many of the present courses, the people who qualify are
not the best.  They are the unemployed and the unemployable.  Now before
someone jumps on me, there are some excellent people who complete the
courses.  Unfortuneately, there are also the others.
----- Original Message -----
From: William J  Anderson 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> on 17/11/00 18:23, The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
>
> > BUT I never got a
> > promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time rquired
to
> > go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then.
>
> Lemme get this straight. The reserve 6B course your your MOC was written
to
> eat up 6 weeks of soldier‘s spare time?
>
> What about the TSM that attended and passed the course? I might be going
out
> on a limb here, but... I‘ll bet something gets taught on those courses to
> make a soldier do the job a little better. In my opinion, if you don‘t
have
> the free time to get qualified according to the specification for your
MOC,
> then you don‘t get the big bucks that accompany the glory of doing the
job.
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:47:40 -0700*
At the time, it was either 6 or 8 weeks. I think, at some point, you could
do it in blocks, but that meant 2 weeks of vacation all a year, for 3 or 4
years.
As to your other point, I understand your point of view, but it was my
experience, for over 13 years, that GENERALLY, soldiers best suited to
attend courses and callouts were those who did not have, could not hold
down, or chose not to look for, full time civilian employment or,
occasionally, an individual who was retired, or semi retired. I saw a lot of
people, with a lot of ability, max out, promotion-wise, because they could
not get time off work to attend courses. Chances are, if you had leadership
skills, brains, gumption, etc., in your Unit, those same traits were being
utilized at your civilian occupation, making it even harder for them to be
able to "spare you". Many people in my Unit did not seek full time
employment - instead choosing to go on courses, callouts, etc, and drawing
unemployment in between. Conversely, often, the Unit was not sending its‘
best - it was sending who was available. This often resulted in "not the
best" getting promoted....
I agree - people who could attend the course did learn a lot... I wanted to
go.. wanted to learn... but just could not get that kind of time off, from
my employer.
As for other Senior NCO and Officer positions in my unit - they were often
filled by Regular Force retirees - as opposed to people who had "grown up"
in the Unit.
Ubique
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> on 17/11/00 18:23, The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
>
> > BUT I never got a
> > promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time rquired
to
> > go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then.
>
> Lemme get this straight. The reserve 6B course your your MOC was written
to
> eat up 6 weeks of soldier‘s spare time?
>
> What about the TSM that attended and passed the course? I might be going
out
> on a limb here, but... I‘ll bet something gets taught on those courses to
> make a soldier do the job a little better. In my opinion, if you don‘t
have
> the free time to get qualified according to the specification for your
MOC,
> then you don‘t get the big bucks that accompany the glory of doing the
job.
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:48:17 -0700*
Thanks, Mr Schepens.. my point, exactly
Mac
================================================================
With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are
attainable.
Thomas E. Buxton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> Unfortuneately, with many of the present courses, the people who qualify
are
> not the best.  They are the unemployed and the unemployable.  Now before
> someone jumps on me, there are some excellent people who complete the
> courses.  Unfortuneately, there are also the others.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William J  Anderson 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
>
>
> > on 17/11/00 18:23, The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
> >
> > > BUT I never got a
> > > promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time
rquired
> to
> > > go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then.
> >
> > Lemme get this straight. The reserve 6B course your your MOC was written
> to
> > eat up 6 weeks of soldier‘s spare time?
> >
> > What about the TSM that attended and passed the course? I might be going
> out
> > on a limb here, but... I‘ll bet something gets taught on those courses
to
> > make a soldier do the job a little better. In my opinion, if you don‘t
> have
> > the free time to get qualified according to the specification for your
> MOC,
> > then you don‘t get the big bucks that accompany the glory of doing the
> job.
> >
> > arte et marte
> >
> > anderson sends:
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:49:51 -0700*
I agree 100.
----- Original Message -----
From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> At the time, it was either 6 or 8 weeks. I think, at some point, you could
> do it in blocks, but that meant 2 weeks of vacation all a year, for 3 or
4
> years.
>
> As to your other point, I understand your point of view, but it was my
> experience, for over 13 years, that GENERALLY, soldiers best suited to
> attend courses and callouts were those who did not have, could not hold
> down, or chose not to look for, full time civilian employment or,
> occasionally, an individual who was retired, or semi retired. I saw a lot
of
> people, with a lot of ability, max out, promotion-wise, because they could
> not get time off work to attend courses. Chances are, if you had
leadership
> skills, brains, gumption, etc., in your Unit, those same traits were being
> utilized at your civilian occupation, making it even harder for them to be
> able to "spare you". Many people in my Unit did not seek full time
> employment - instead choosing to go on courses, callouts, etc, and drawing
> unemployment in between. Conversely, often, the Unit was not sending its‘
> best - it was sending who was available. This often resulted in "not the
> best" getting promoted....
>
> I agree - people who could attend the course did learn a lot... I wanted
to
> go.. wanted to learn... but just could not get that kind of time off, from
> my employer.
>
> As for other Senior NCO and Officer positions in my unit - they were often
> filled by Regular Force retirees - as opposed to people who had "grown up"
> in the Unit.
> Ubique
> Mac
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William J  Anderson" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
>
>
> > on 17/11/00 18:23, The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
> >
> > > BUT I never got a
> > > promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time
rquired
> to
> > > go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then.
> >
> > Lemme get this straight. The reserve 6B course your your MOC was written
> to
> > eat up 6 weeks of soldier‘s spare time?
> >
> > What about the TSM that attended and passed the course? I might be going
> out
> > on a limb here, but... I‘ll bet something gets taught on those courses
to
> > make a soldier do the job a little better. In my opinion, if you don‘t
> have
> > the free time to get qualified according to the specification for your
> MOC,
> > then you don‘t get the big bucks that accompany the glory of doing the
> job.
> >
> > arte et marte
> >
> > anderson sends:
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:09:51 -0700*
on 17/11/00 19:47,  The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
I may be wrong here but I smell something.
> 
> As to your other point, I understand your point of view, but it was my
> experience, for over 13 years, that GENERALLY, soldiers best suited to
> attend courses and callouts were those who did not have, could not hold
> down, or chose not to look for, full time civilian employment or,
> occasionally, an individual who was retired, or semi retired. I saw a lot of
> people, with a lot of ability, max out, promotion-wise, because they could
> not get time off work to attend courses. Chances are, if you had leadership
> skills, brains, gumption, etc., in your Unit, those same traits were being
> utilized at your civilian occupation, making it even harder for them to be
> able to "spare you". Many people in my Unit did not seek full time
> employment - instead choosing to go on courses, callouts, etc, and drawing
> unemployment in between. Conversely, often, the Unit was not sending its‘
> best - it was sending who was available. This often resulted in "not the
> best" getting promoted....
That may be true as far as your are concerned. I don‘t think you will
convince me that you are entirely correct though Mac. I sympathise with your
delema or your old delema, but it boiled down to sacrifice. You didn‘t want
to sacrifice your free time to attend the course so you paid the piper. It
is a non issue from where I sit. on my retired *** 

> As for other Senior NCO and Officer positions in my unit - they were often
> filled by Regular Force retirees - as opposed to people who had "grown up"
> in the Unit.
This is a sore point with me as well. Long time readers of this list will
remember how I turned down a pretty good job in the local reserve unit. I
think the Warrant Officers and Senior NCOs should have the full oportunity
to be promoted in their unit without parachuting in old buddies that have
retired from the Army. I for one, would like to see this practice abolished!
arte et marte
anderson sends
> Ubique
> Mac
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:35:21 -0700*
Well, and you are right - this is not entirely sour grapes, on my part.  If
I really wanted to get promoted to WO, I could have given up all of my
vacation for 4 years. The courses I needed  only offered that option for a
brief period. It changed formats/lengths a couple of times. That is true.
OR, I could have not bothered to get a real job, gone on a course every
summer, a callout every winter, and drawn unemployment in between. My main
point was, that the system isn‘t conducive to getting the very best people
on courses, callouts, etc.
================================================================
With ordinary talent and extraordinary perseverance, all things are
attainable.
Thomas E. Buxton
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> on 17/11/00 19:47,  The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
>
> I may be wrong here but I smell something.
> >
> > As to your other point, I understand your point of view, but it was my
> > experience, for over 13 years, that GENERALLY, soldiers best suited to
> > attend courses and callouts were those who did not have, could not hold
> > down, or chose not to look for, full time civilian employment or,
> > occasionally, an individual who was retired, or semi retired. I saw a
lot of
> > people, with a lot of ability, max out, promotion-wise, because they
could
> > not get time off work to attend courses. Chances are, if you had
leadership
> > skills, brains, gumption, etc., in your Unit, those same traits were
being
> > utilized at your civilian occupation, making it even harder for them to
be
> > able to "spare you". Many people in my Unit did not seek full time
> > employment - instead choosing to go on courses, callouts, etc, and
drawing
> > unemployment in between. Conversely, often, the Unit was not sending
its‘
> > best - it was sending who was available. This often resulted in "not the
> > best" getting promoted....
>
> That may be true as far as your are concerned. I don‘t think you will
> convince me that you are entirely correct though Mac. I sympathise with
your
> delema or your old delema, but it boiled down to sacrifice. You didn‘t
want
> to sacrifice your free time to attend the course so you paid the piper. It
> is a non issue from where I sit. on my retired *** 
>
>
> > As for other Senior NCO and Officer positions in my unit - they were
often
> > filled by Regular Force retirees - as opposed to people who had "grown
up"
> > in the Unit.
>
> This is a sore point with me as well. Long time readers of this list will
> remember how I turned down a pretty good job in the local reserve unit. I
> think the Warrant Officers and Senior NCOs should have the full oportunity
> to be promoted in their unit without parachuting in old buddies that have
> retired from the Army. I for one, would like to see this practice
abolished!
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends
> > Ubique
> > Mac
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:34:52 -0700*
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> Mr Anderson - I‘ve always enjoyed and respected your opinions on this
board,
> so if I sound a little touchy, forgive me, but you‘ve struck a nerve. I
got
> the impression perhaps mistakenly that you are of a Regular Force
> background. I don‘t want to turn this into a Militia/Reg battle either,
but
> interestingly, many comments I have heard over the years, implying that I
> and others wasn‘t willing to "sacrifice enough" came from Regular Force
> members. My Det Comd‘s course was a regular force course, and I, too,
served
> on a few callouts, both as a 2 I/C, and a Det Comd - the point being, I
have
> been employed from the civilian side, as well as the Reg Force side.
Nobody
> messed with my leave, when I was employed, albeit temporarily, in the
> Regular Force - I was entitled to leave for this, leave for that, personal
> administration time, and if, heaven forbid, I worked a weekend, I got a
comp
> day off during the week. When serving in Class A service, I worked all
week,
> went on exercise, or instructed courses, on the weekend, then back to work
> on Monday. How many weekends in a row didn‘t matter, Holidays didn‘t
matter,
> and family didn‘t matter, civvy job didn‘t matter. And as proud of I was
of
> my military service, and my level of professionalism, it wasn‘t my main
job.
> I did it because I wanted to serve my country - not for the money, not to
> wear nifty uniforms, not to play with firearms and blow stuff up. I wanted
> to give something back, as well as keep my family‘s military tradition
> going. Again, I don‘t want this to get bitter, but I think Mr O‘Leary made
a
> point earlier that Regular Force members should become more educated about
> the Reserve "Culture". Someone who has never been in the Reserves could no
> more understand it than someone who has never been in the Regular Force,
> trying to pass judgment on Regular Force culture. I always was bemused,
when
> our Reg compadres were heard criticizing some of us - to me it was akin to
> someone who does something professionally chastising an individual who
> partakes of the same activity on weekends only for not being as good. I
> don‘t know - pick a hobby I‘m sure people will knock me for using that
> term maybe interest is a better word. Maybe you like to golf....maybe
> you‘re the best amateur golfer in your town.. heck, your province.. then
you
> run into Tiger Woods someday, and he starts to mock you..". who do you
think
> you are?? If you really want to golf, you need to give up your life,
> practice every day.. sacrifice everything.. then maybe you can call
yourself
> a golfer". Probably a bad analogy.. but it sounded good, in my head,
before
> I started to ramble..... -    Anyway, I respect the Regular Force, for
> what they do, who they are, and what they stand for.... I also know from
> experience, that there is more to the Militia life, than meets the eye.
Both
> organizations serve a purpose, both have poor individuals, both have great
> individuals......and you are right, I, ultimately made a choice. I simply
> mean that the system could be tweaked a little, so Units can send their
> Creme de la Creme on some of these taskings. I also think that‘s what
gives
> the Regs sometimes a bad taste in their mouth about the Reserves. Often
> the Unit sends ying-yangs, rather than nobody, out of fear of losing
future
> positions/offerings.
> Macfarlane
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:53:09 -0800*
What I meant was, that we should keep all of the seperate identities.  The
savings that would realize, do not justify wiping them out.   I think the
tax payers should pay "X" amount of dollars, to continue to recognize, and
honor, the momories of those who dies to earn those "Battle Honors"
I recently attended our Remembrance Day Parade and service.  I was again
moved to tears, upon hearing Lasp Post.  I thought to myself, those men,
whose names are etched in stone, must not be forgotten.  If it means that
some apathetic taxpayer, pays a triffle more next year?  Then spend the
cash, keep all of our Regiments alive.  If this country, can ask those men
to sacrifice thier lives, then they can repay them.  No matter how long it
takes....................
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:03:12 -0800*
The whole training system in the Reserves, is geared towards students.  If
you have free time in the summer, you can get trained.  Is this a holdover
from the years of student employment programs?
1If you were senior enough, to schedule your vacation at the right time.
2If you were entitled to vacation, many workers do not get it.
Then you might get loaded on your course.  So its not always a matter of
not "Sacrificing" your spare time.
To cover all the people, there should always be week night course.  I would
have loved to do my WO‘s course over a longer time.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:03:13 -0800*
Very well said Mr. Macfarlane. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:42:32 -0700*
on 17/11/00 21:34,  The MacFarlanes‘ at desrtrat@amug.org wrote:
> I got
> the impression perhaps mistakenly that you are of a Regular Force
> background. 
That is, in fact, correct.
>I don‘t want to turn this into a Militia/Reg battle either,
> but
> interestingly, many comments I have heard over the years, implying that I
> and others wasn‘t willing to "sacrifice enough" came from Regular Force
> members. 
My comments, Mac, were in no way meant to be derogatory. I was merely
pointing out that you had a choice. Your job and your family came first and
nobody would fault you for it. The downside was that you didn‘t get promoted
along with from what I can gather by the thought put into most of your
posts your unit missed out on getting a pretty good Warrant Officer.
I, too, refuse to get into a Reg force vs PRes urniation contest. I will
admit that the words ‘weekend warrior‘ and ‘tuesday night soldier‘ rolled
off of my tongue with more frequency that I care to admit during my 30 plus
years in the army. Sometimes is was attributed to frustration, other times
contempt and yet other times a twinge of jealousy. Mosty, though, it was
because I had little or no idea of what made reservists tick.
Most full time soldiers don‘t look at what they do as a job for one thing.
It is not a job ... it is a vocation. To that end we have a hard time
understanding how some people can do it part-time. It is that lack of
understanding the breeds the contempt and the silly remarks. Education will
prevent it to some degree but before you take it personally, don‘t forget
that soldiers use those same derogatory remarks when talking of airmen and
sailors. Mostly they are just seen as being different.
As far as sacrifice is concerned, I know many soldiers that have given up
weekends and summers to work and train reservists. I‘m sure their families
were tickled to death when told that two weeks comp time off in Feb will
make up for it. The grass is always greener and, as we get longer in the
tooth, we find that green is green. sometimes it is the colour of envy
>Regular Force members should become more educated about
> the Reserve "Culture".
>Someone who has never been in the Reserves could no
> more understand it than someone who has never been in the Regular Force,
> trying to pass judgment on Regular Force culture.
I‘m not passing judgement on the reserve culture I think that is what you
meant I am just saying that we face options every day. If there was a
better way of bringing reservists to the same skill level as regular force
soldiers I, for one, would like to see it. I spent 14 months of my life
writing the spec for PRes MOC R400. It is a big problem but it is also a
reconised one. For the most part it is a learned reaction to be super
critical of the unknown. I have worked with reservists that were excellent
soldiers. I almost begged them to join the Regular Force. I came to find out
that, although they were very good at what they did, they were also very
good at other things. Those other things were their full time jobs. Perhaps.
like you, they were just the sort of people that give their best to all
endevours.
I always held my breath when a reservist was ‘posted in‘ to work in my unit.
As I got older and wiser I reserved my judgement perhaps I learned that on
a leadership course I took the good with the bad. There were a few ying
yangs as you put it I have some great stories but by and large I found
reservists eager and willing to learn and work with us. Perhaps my
expectations were low or perhaps I was just a softie. What I didn‘t do was
whine about it. I sat with my CO and made concrete remarks in after action
reports and evaluations. Then I took my 10 day buckshee time off in February
and when cross country skiing. hehehe
One last remark about pay and I‘ll end this lengthy note. A number of years
ago I was outside of Res Bay in a tent with some guys at or around minus 30.
We were drinking hot cocao and bitchin‘ about field pay. There was a Cpl
with us out of the LER .. he said ‘Don‘t tell anyone ..but I‘d do this for
free‘
Makes one wonder.
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:01:06 -0700*
Seems we were more in agreement than I thought.... sorry to "snap into a
Slim Jim", but as I said.. I was proud of what I did, miss it tremendously,
and was only saying that there is a lot of improvements that can be made, in
how we develop leaders in the Reserve System. Thanks, Mr Anderson, for your
cooler head, and insightful comments. In the end, I think most of us all
want the same thing.
Ubique
MacF
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:47:45 -0500*
Dumb question, I know...but how do you select Col‘s and LCol‘s from an equal
pool of unproven Majors that have never commanded a battalion, as opposed
commanding a large company whose make up is not defined or declared
Comes back to Ian‘s comment...big battalions becoming small
battalions...degenerating to companies, then small companies..then, when it
counts, you have lieutentants with no experience or direction trying to
command whole formations, and falling on their asses what else at that
level, but by Christ, when our country thunders in, Dave, Stockwell Day,
Mike Harris, Ralph Klein, et al, will assure we have a **** load of tax
savings in our pockets...maybe we can buy off our countries foes...come
on...its the concept you are promoting...consider the "user fees" they never
define, but let Ontarians, as an example, wonder why they‘re broker than
they were in "95, when the Wondrous Financial Planner Mike the Nazi came
in...too bad that his 42 increase in salary and benefits sort of fell
through last week, when his oppostion reminded him that MPP‘s should get an
increase in line with Public Service workers, and Mikey was too embarassed
to go through with it..
Or we could just pay an honest rate to our service people, and equip them
honestly, because they show they WILL in fact do the job, if we only tool
and pay them, and get the ****  out of their way.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: Traditions
> Don‘t forget, that at the present time in the Reserve this  hasn‘t been
> changed yet despite many people wishing it was, there is an oveabundance
of
> senior staff to train senior leaders in case something goes wrong.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dave 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 12:47 AM
> Subject: RE: Traditions
>
>
> >
> > Just as a point to ponder, considering the topic.
> > Wouldn‘t it be better training, for an Officer, if he were in command of
a
> > large company, rather than a small Battalion?  A Major, in command of a
> full
> > strengthor as close as we can getCompany, would be better employed,
than
> a
> > LCol with a small Battalion.
> >
> > Have a reserve regt. perpetuated by a comp. sized formation.  Still
> > retaining the name and honors of the former unit.  Organized and funded
as
> a
> > company, it should be more efficient to run.
> > Perhaps this would allow the formation of units in smaller urban
> > centers???????
> >
> > I think It would be terrible, if the proud Regiments of Canada, are
> allowed
> > to disappear.  They represent the history of our country, and must be
> > allowed to thrive.  I think the cost of maintaining thier identities
will
> > never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
> >
> > Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
> >
> > CHIMO
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:53:26 GMT*
----Original Message Follows----
From: Ian Edwards 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: Traditions
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:11:33 -0700
Actually, there‘s not a whole heck of a lot of regimental identity
that‘s paid for out of public expense, unless it‘s Reg Force. Even
things like unit distinct cap badges, it‘s getting again, shades of the
early 1970s so that the DND Supply system refuses to re-order without
political pressure being applied.  I know one PRes unit guess which
one?? that could place an order for 300-500 cap badges for themselves
and their affiliated cadet corps and DND system has told them to go to
If regimental identity is an important source of morale for the men and 
women in the Forces, then I would think any tax payer who has any feel at 
all for how demanding life in the Services can be would have no problem at 
all paying to maintain a bit of tradition.
Heaven knows, our tax dollars are directed to many projects much more 
frivolous than *that* in the run of an average year...
- A taxpayer aka Joan
**** , hubs and dies "lost/sold" etc. and won‘t be replaced.
dave wrote:
 >
snip, snip..
  I think the cost of maintaining thier identities will
 > never be too high, and should be gladly borne by our taxpayers.
 >
 > Just a view points that I would like feedback on........
 >
 > CHIMO
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
 http://profiles.msn.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------

