# Fighter Pilot



## Bo

Hey guys,

Found this on another site. Great read.


'It's an admirable ambition and one of many rewarding careers available in the military...but it's not for everybody. Although we may all be members of the Air Force and sworn to defend our country, let's not kid ourselves. Very few of us actually train or commit our careers to engaging the enemy and prosecuting violence. This isn't to say fighter pilots are more important than any other part of the Air Force teamâ â€they're not. It's just that their position at the tip of the sword makes them unique. 

So you want to be a fighter pilot? All you have to do is graduate from a four-year college or university, garner a commission in the Air Force, and excel in two years of intense and competitive flight training, When you've done all this, you may like to call yourself a fighter pilot, but in reality you won't be able to fly and chew gum at the same time. In fact, you'll be almost as dangerous to yourself and your unit as you will be to the enemy. In two more years though, you'll undergo a metamorphosis from squadron liability to squadron asset, and grow into a fledgling flight lead. In two more years, you'll think you're the best gunfighter and aviator that ever patrolled the boundless dimensions of earth, and be ready to upgrade to instructor pilot. The circle will close as you mold embryonic fighter pilots to be just like yourself. In the process, you'll experience one of the most demanding, exciting, taxing, and competitive professions imaginable. 

Modern aerial combat has become an extremely stressful environment that demands robust physical conditioning, deft mental gymnastics, and precise hand-eye coordination. A fighter pilot is a three dimensional racecar driver, computer programmer, navigator, bombardier, radio operator, flight engineer, nose gunner, weight lifter, warrior, and chess player all in one. At 9 Gs, a pilot's 10-pound head weighs 90 pounds. Next time you're at the gym, hang an extra 80 pounds on your neck, tilt back, and try checking-out your backside. Now imagine doing it in an aircraft as your brain attempts to keep-up with the earth and sky as they both tumble around your universe. As tough as the physical demands are, a fighter pilot's real challenge is in the employment of their weapon system. With aircraft traveling faster than the speed of sound and missiles traveling at six times that speed, the difference between kill and be killed can be mere seconds, or the difference between a perfect and nearly perfect decision. 

During a major inspection such as an Operational Readiness Inspection, all pilots in a wing are tested on the first day. For fighter pilots this is taken one step further. Not only are they tested on their own aircraft and procedures, but they're tested on the enemy's too. Think you're a professional on top of your career? Imagine having to prove it during testing administered by headquarters. Then try-on a no-notice checkride. Pressure? No way. 

Pressure is getting shot at. No-notice testing and checkrides are merely irritants. 

Thrills are what most people get out of a roller coaster ride. Excitement is passing beak-to-beak at over 1,200 miles per hour. Excitement is sneaking-up on the enemy while contour flying the earth. Excitement is rolling on your back in the middle of the night to hurl your jet at a bandit skimming across the waves. Excitement is trying to decide between the gun and a Maverick shot. Excitement is betting your missile will time-out before the bandit's missile times-out on you. 

After the first 1,000 flight briefings, number 1,001 sounds pretty familiar. After straining against the limits of physiological endurance, hours spent in a combat-air-patrol can be hypnotically repetitive. But all you have to do is put the afterburners into the northwest quadrant once, look back, and watch the world get smaller to realize whatever pain there is in being a fighter pilot is worth it. If the price of admission is periodic testing, thorough flight briefings, and periodic combat-air-patrols...sign me up! It's still a bargain. 

Professional development is important to all officers, but particularly important to fighter pilots. Not because being "professional" is an end to itself, but because professional development is a means of increasing our lethality. Officers are judged by many scales, but let there be no doubt what the most important scale is for a fighter pilot ...the ability to successfully employ their weapon system. There are a lot of things that go through an adversary's mind at the merge. Whether or not you've completed Squadron Officer School is probably not one of them. But if SOS helped you plan, coordinate, brief, or lead your formation to a position of advantage at the merge, then your adversary just made a fatal mistake. 

If forced to sum-up the life of a fighter pilot in a single word, â Å“competitionâ ? would be an excellent choice. Out of approximately 363,000 military members in the Air Force, less than 72,000 are officers. Out of these 72,000, less than 13,200 are pilots. From these 13,200, only 4,291 are fighter pilots. Comprising less than 1.2 percent of the entire Air Force, the competition that goes into becoming part of this elite group is fierce. What's more, it never stops. In every fighter squadron there is an unofficial hierarchy of pilots, much like a racquetball ladder. Each day, number ten tries to move up a notch while number one tries to stay on top. The debriefs are brutal and always come down to the same thing. Either you succeeded or failed; won or lost; lived or died. As a boy, I always dreamed of becoming a professional athlete. It wasn't until I became a fighter pilot that I realized the sense of esprit de corps and competition found in professional sports is endemic to fighter pilots.'"


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## RyanNS

Wow I never knew that Canada had an Air Force of 363,000 members.   And 4,000 plus fighter pilots  ??? Ahh just kidding of course. Good read tho, for what I am assuming is dealing with the American Air Force. With such a smaller force I'm guessing Canada's Air Force would be even that much more competitive?


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## Good2Golf

Nice story, good inspiration stuff for those who want to be the "creme de la creme".....however, FWIW, I believe that "statistically", you are even more of an elite pilot if you're a US Army special ops aviator in the 160th SOAR.

My own personal preference, but I would rather be part of a flying fratenity where honour to one's brothers, both flying and on the ground, takes precedence over all else...than playing some pissing squash ladder of who's the best this week...

My own 2 ¢

Cheers,
Duey


     *Brothers of the Creed*
     
     In dreams at night
     I remember flight
     With brothers of the creed.     
     
     Through blackest night 
     All-weather flight 
     The bravest of the breed. 
     
     Pilots, crewchiefs, 
     With warrior's beliefs; 
     As one we gave our all. 
     
     After endless briefs 
     Oh, what relief, 
     To finally get the call. 
     
     Into the night 
     We carry the fight 
     Wherever the Nation's need. 
     
     Our friend the night 
     Will cover our flight 
     With stealth we do the deed. 
     
     At dawns first light 
     I awake from the night 
     With a void, a pressing need. 
     
     To remember the flights 
     Through the darkest of nights 
     With my Brothers of the Creed. 
     
     *NSDQ*
     
     Tony Bizzell, Nightstalker (ret'd)


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## EightPistons

I did a search on heart murmurs and I know that pilots can get their wings with a slight murmur, but I'm wondering if the condition would restrict someone from becoming a fighter pilot?  I have passed many physicals for boxing and now the army reserve, done imaging/ecgs/blood test, and have no problems in fitness standards, but I definately do have a murmur.

Also, a newbie question, if I were allowed to switch into the air force reserve from the army reserve would I be able to begin learning to fly or would I be assigned to another job until i was finished with university and could go reg force?

thanks in advance.


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## Matty B.

I have no experience with heart murmers, so I won't go there.

To my knowledge, (unlike the U.S. Air Reserve) Canada doesn't have pilots that train as part-time Reservists. Reserve pilots are people who have served in the Reg. Force for many years and then decide to transfer to the CAF Reserve. 

My previous service check from the Army Reserve to Reg. Air Force took 10 months to complete, so plan well ahead!


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## Inspir

http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medical/medical_e.html


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## pipstah

Sorry Matty but the airforce do train full civilian pilots to military standard. They do take alot of ex-regular force pilot because they dont need to train them. The trick about getting in the reserve as a pilot is that you need to have a log book filled with enought hours for the requirments that the airforce ask. I do know that St-Hubert is training pilot for their OTU. I would suggest you to do a little search on the forum since you are not the first one to ask about that


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## Matty B.

EightPistons asked if he could "be able to begin learning to fly" in the Reserves. I don't see anything about him being a trained civilian pilot in his question...


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## Good2Golf

EightPistons said:
			
		

> I did a search on heart murmurs and I know that pilots can get their wings with a slight murmur, but I'm wondering if the condition would restrict someone from becoming a fighter pilot?  I have passed many physicals for boxing and now the army reserve, done imaging/ecgs/blood test, and have no problems in fitness standards, but I definately do have a murmur...



8P, depends.  I had a "grade 4" heart murmur on a tricuspid valve when I joined and was cleared by DCIEM to "fly all CF aircraft unrestrictedly, to include high performance jet aircraft."  I don't know what is acceptable and what isn't, but I do know from personal experience that having a murmur does not immediate disqualify you from being issued an unrestricted aircrew med category.

Cheers,
Duey


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## Loachman

There are only two routes to become a pilot in the air reserve: ex-regular (and most of them do need training as the majority that we see in Borden come from seized-wing backgrounds - that's why we have a Jet Ranger to do basic hel training) and HELICOP.

HELICOP stands for HELicopter Industry CO-operation Programme. One needs a commercial helicopter licence including turbine time. As several of the original ones that we screened in the Downsview days had only what they got in community college courses - "hundred-hour wonders", they weren't terribly successful. They had very little flying experience and no instrument time. I do not know of any that made it through the full programme. I do not know if the entry requirements have been increased, but I don't think that we'd look at anybody with less than 500 hours today. Very few experienced have pilots applied, and the only one that I know of who's still in is now went reg force several years ago. We have not had any screen or train at 400 Squadron since we moved to Borden in 1996. Not exactly a rip-roaring success, and this was what replaced the reserve pilot training programme that took in two pairs off of the street annually, and returned three or four of them. Granted, it was more expensive, but it worked and despite being canned (a huge mistake) in 1994 or 95, we still have a couple of those guys in the Squadron today, and several others are in the reg force.

So, you cough up large sums of money to pay for your own licence and build up time, or go reg force.


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## SupersonicMax

You can do that with Multi-Engine as well.  A guy at my Squadron has done it.  He had 9000 hrs commercially and was qualified on the Dash 8 (airplane my sqn flies...)

Max



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> There are only two routes to become a pilot in the air reserve: ex-regular (and most of them do need training as the majority that we see in Borden come from seized-wing backgrounds - that's why we have a Jet Ranger to do basic hel training) and HELICOP.
> 
> HELICOP stands for HELicopter Industry CO-operation Programme. One needs a commercial helicopter licence including turbine time. As several of the original ones that we screened in the Downsview days had only what they got in community college courses - "hundred-hour wonders", they weren't terribly successful. They had very little flying experience and no instrument time. I do not know of any that made it through the full programme. I do not know if the entry requirements have been increased, but I don't think that we'd look at anybody with less than 500 hours today. Very few experienced have pilots applied, and the only one that I know of who's still in is now went reg force several years ago. We have not had any screen or train at 400 Squadron since we moved to Borden in 1996. Not exactly a rip-roaring success, and this was what replaced the reserve pilot training programme that took in two pairs off of the street annually, and returned three or four of them. Granted, it was more expensive, but it worked and despite being canned (a huge mistake) in 1994 or 95, we still have a couple of those guys in the Squadron today, and several others are in the reg force.
> 
> So, you cough up large sums of money to pay for your own licence and build up time, or go reg force.


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## EightPistons

Awesome stuff, thanks fellers


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## IceRealm

I've been thinking about working my way to becoming a fighter pilot in the air force. I've heard the eventually stop flying afteran amount of time, which is expected but i'm curious as to the age that most fighter pilots usually stop flying at ? 
Note: maybe you should sticky this or something, i'm sure others would want to know this.


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## Zoomie

All pilots in the CF can fly up until CRA or if they get promoted enough.  Most fighter pilots become instructors or decide that they want to become serious aviators and learn how to fly larger fixed-wing aircraft or helicopters.


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## dapaterson

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Most fighter pilots become instructors or decide that they want to become serious aviators and learn how to fly larger fixed-wing aircraft or helicopters.



May I quote you on this next time I see CAS ?  :nod:


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## IceRealm

Zoomie said:
			
		

> All pilots in the CF can fly up until CRA or if they get promoted enough.



I'm sorry if i sound stupid, but what is a CRA ?


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## Michael OLeary

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/14-04-eng.asp



> Age 60 Release
> 
> The age specified at Table H to QR&O 15.17 (officers) and Table E to QR&O 15.31 (Non-Commissioned Members). Upon reaching age 60, the member shall be released unless an extension is authorized.
> 
> *Compulsory Retirement Age (CRA)*
> 
> This is the age beyond which a member of the CF may not serve, unless an extension to CRA is authorized. The age that is applicable to an officer or NCM of the Regular Force will be in accordance with the appropriate table to QR&O 15.17 (Officers) and QR&O 15.31 (NCMs). The age that is applicable to members of the Primary Reserve will be as authorized by the CDS.


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## GAP

Hmmmph.....and here I thought it was Crash Related Accident....... :


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## IceRealm

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/14-04-eng.asp



Much appreciation


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## SupersonicMax

IceRealm said:
			
		

> I've been thinking about working my way to becoming a fighter pilot in the air force. I've heard the eventually stop flying afteran amount of time, which is expected but i'm curious as to the age that most fighter pilots usually stop flying at ?
> Note: maybe you should sticky this or something, i'm sure others would want to know this.



You fly until you're sick of it, your body can't take it anymore (medical) or you get promoted to a point where you can't be posted in a flying position anymore.  There is no fixed age.  As long as your body is good to go, you can fly (until CRA obviously)

Now, flying jets is demanding on the body.  It can destroy your neck and back and many have suffered this faith.  However, with a little care and specific exercices, it's possible to have a long career flying fighters.  There are guys on Squadron that have flown during the Gulf V1 (1991), so that's 20 years of flying the finest fighter plane in the world.


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## Loachman

IceRealm said:
			
		

> Note: maybe you should sticky this or something, i'm sure others would want to know this.



Note: Maybe we shouldn't, as most people can use the Search Function thus sparing us from stickying everybody's pet thread.

And please capitalize properly.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> so that's 20 years of flying the finest fighter plane in the world.



Whatever. The wings can't turn as is right and natural. Fortunately, the truly blessed fly helicopters.


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## Zoomie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> May I quote you on this next time I see CAS ?  :nod:



Absolutely - since he is a reformed fighter pilot turned serious aviator - flying AWACs and CC-130s.


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## SupersonicMax

I received quite a few emails asking for information about what it takes to be a fighter pilot, what is the daily routine, are such and such rumour true, etc, etc.  This post is my attempt to answer as many questions as possible about the way to being a fighter pilot and what a fighter pilot does.  Do not hesitate to ask further questions.

First, let me tell you where I come from.  I joined the military at 16, under the ROTP program.  Went through RMC and graduated with a Bachelor of Engineering (Mechanical Engineering).  I did my Primary Flight Training in between years at RMC.  After RMC, I waited for 7 months for pilot training.  I did Basic Flying Training, Advanced Flight Training, Fighter Lead-In and Operation Training thereafter.  I have been posted to a fighter squadron ever since. 

What does it take to be a fighter pilot?  You need to be a fast learner.  All along your flight training, you will be evaluated on your daily performance.  Based on that, you will be ranked amongst your peers.  Your ranking has a big influence on whether or not you get what you want and even if you can go jets.  There are a lot of good candidates and, depending on who is on your courses, it can be challenging to finish in the top of your course.

Being a good stick is not all that is required. You need self motivation.  You need to be able to motivate yourself to learn and perform, even in the hardest of times, when you are down the drain (and it will happen).  

You need a fighter attitude.  You need to be aggressive, but able to contain and focus that aggressiveness.  Most people that know me would probably not tell you I am an aggressive person. I just contain and focus that aggressiveness to accomplish the objectives of the mission.

You need to be able to analyze things quickly and make a decision quickly.  Time, unfortunately, is not always a commodity we have and decisions have to happen.  And you need to be right... Most of the time.  This quality is assessed during all of your pre-wing flight training.

Those are, in my mind, what a fighter pilot needs to be successful in his job.

Now, what do we do as a fighter pilot?  There are multitudes of things.  There are a few big misconceptions about the fighter world.  One of them is that we don't do anything operational.  Not quite true.  Even without the recent events, we conduct operations on a daily basis. Defending Canada, through NORAD is our biggest mission.  We always have pilots and aircraft on alert waiting for the call.  And it does happen, fairly often.  Also, when shit hits the fan, we deploy overseas.  Granted, it didn't happen very often, but when it happens, you are at the tip of the spear.

A lot of people ask me about my routine.  Well, there is no routine.  We sometimes fly day, night, we go places for exercises often.  But let's try to break it down.  As I said in the previous paragraph, we have pilots on alert at any given time.  This means that on average 2 times a week, you have to be that guy that sits by the jet, waiting for the horn to go off.  The good thing about it is that you normally get to fly during those days.  At the squadron, you have a secondary duty.  This will take up most of your time when you are not flying.  When you fly, depending on the type of mission, it will take up most of your day for a 1h30 of flight time:  Mission Planning 3h45 before take off, briefing 1h45 before take off, walk to the airplane 45 minutes before take off, fly the mission, land, review the mission and debrief the mission.  This can easily get to an 8 hour day right there.  On days that you are not flying you may have to work on the Operation's Desk, where you monitor the missions, you may have to do some ground training, give/get briefings on our systems/other nation's systems, etc.  On top of that, you will normally study for your next "upgrade"*.  A normal day will be 10 hours for me and I have already been at the squadron for 20 hours.

You will be gone from home a lot.  In the last 7 months, I have been at home for 19 days.  On average, you can expect to participate in 3-4 3-4 week exercises per year, plus the odd small 1-2 week deployment.  Roughly 3-4 months away from home a year. 

As far as flying hours go, you can expect 200-250 hours a year. 

*On the topic of upgrades.  When you finish your fighter pilot course, you are not yet qualified to go to combat.  You need to do a Combat Readiness Upgrade at the squadron.  More senior pilot will lead you on different type of training missions and you need to achieve a certain standard.  At the end, you have to do you Tactical Evaluation where a Tactical Standards Officer will monitor the mission and grant you a Combat Ready Wingman qualification or recommend remedial training.  There is also a written exam portion.  Once you acquired enough experience as a wingman, that people see you as ready to be flight lead and the resources are available, you will be put on the Element Lead Upgrade.  You then learn to become a lead, and an instructor.  Same idea as the Combat Readiness Upgrade. After that, you get your Section Lead Upgrade and finally, your Mass Attack Lead Upgrade.  Note that not everybody makes it up all the upgrades.  Pretty much everybody makes it to Element Lead, a fair amount make it to Section Lead and a few make it to Mass Attack Lead.

I hope it answers a few of the questions you had in mind, if not, post it here and I'll do my best to give you an answer.

Cheers


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## Scott

So, Goose, when do I get my handle? 

 :whiteflag:


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## Tuna

is it true that one can switch to a nav at any time during training? and can you please explain the roles of navs in "alpha jets"?


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## aesop081

Tuna said:
			
		

> and can you please explain the roles of navs in "alpha jets"?



Tuna : Read the title of this thread please.

Max : Good post.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Good post Max. I will sticky this.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## WingsofFury

Permission requested to link to this thread on a FB page dedicated to the CF-18?


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## Tuna

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Tuna : Read the title of this thread please.
> 
> Max : Good post.



sorry!!!


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## LOLslamball

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> At the squadron, you have a secondary duty.  This will take up most of your time when you are not flying.
> 
> You will be gone from home a lot.  In the last 7 months, I have been at home for 19 days.  On average, you can expect to participate in 3-4 3-4 week exercises per year, plus the odd small 1-2 week deployment.  Roughly 3-4 months away from home a year.



Awesome post, I have a couple questions.

Is your secondary duty a permanent duty or does it change? and what are some examples? (unless I read it incorrectly and being on the operations desk was a secondary duty)

Is the fact that you were away so much over the last 7 months due to one time training or has it just been an above average year for days away from home? 
Are a lot of the shorter deployments in Canada or elsewhere? 

Thank You


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## SupersonicMax

LOLslamball said:
			
		

> Is your secondary duty a permanent duty or does it change? and what are some examples? (unless I read it incorrectly and being on the operations desk was a secondary duty)



It changes once in a while, normally every 6 months or so (when we have a bunch of new guys showing up on Squadron).  I have been lucky enough to be in the same position for the last 18 months and develop a very good understanding of my area of responsibility (I am the Mission Planning Officer).  Being on the Ops Desk is a tertiary duty, if that even exists.  It's on top of everything else.  Normally, newer guys will do that.

Other examples of secondary duties:

-Scheduler
-Deputy Ops O
-Training Files O
-Ground Training O
-NORAD O
-A/G O
-A/A O



			
				LOLslamball said:
			
		

> Is the fact that you were away so much over the last 7 months due to one time training or has it just been an above average year for days away from home?
> Are a lot of the shorter deployments in Canada or elsewhere?



It was a busy year, mostly to the fact that we were deployed overseas in a conflict.  I spent 2 of those months participating in that conflict.  The other months were spent on various exercises both in Canada and abroad, and courses here and there.  I have been to Europe 3 times in the last 6 months and in the US so many times I lost count.

Regardless, you can expect to be away 3-4 months a year in a regular year.


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## DonaldMcL

Tuna said:
			
		

> is it true that one can switch to a nav at any time during training? and can you please explain the roles of navs in "alpha jets"?



My apologies to Max on the thread hickjack, but as one of those "navs" (we prefer the term EWO, heh), I can help. 

Our official role is to provide real-world threat simulation to CF assets, be it air, land or sea. 

Most of our job is threat replication (be it various aircraft for the Air Force, or aircraft and missiles for the Navy) and electronic warfare (RADAR and communication jamming). There is a bit of work with the Army, but mostly in a CAS role. 

Any other questions, feel free to shoot me a quick PM, I'll be happy to answer them.


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## Bass ackwards

Max, I'm curious about age in the fighter community these days.
I've read a dozen times about how, in WWII, you were considered an old man at 26 if you were a fighter pilot.
Obviously things are different now, but:

How long, on average, can someone effectively do the job ?

Also, what, just in your general observations, would you consider a realistic cut-off age for someone looking at flying fighters in the RCAF ?
Just for an example (and no, this isn't me  ) a guy in his mid-thirties who drives Caravans or flying culverts for a living -should someone that old even bother trying, regardless of how good their eyesight/reflexes/etc still is ?


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## SupersonicMax

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> Max, I'm curious about age in the fighter community these days.
> I've read a dozen times about how, in WWII, you were considered an old man at 26 if you were a fighter pilot.
> Obviously things are different now, but:
> 
> How long, on average, can someone effectively do the job ?



There is no limit. As long as you pass your medical, you can keep flying.  We have someone that is nearly 50 still flying the Hornet.



			
				Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> Also, what, just in your general observations, would you consider a realistic cut-off age for someone looking at flying fighters in the RCAF ?
> Just for an example (and no, this isn't me  ) a guy in his mid-thirties who drives Caravans or flying culverts for a living -should someone that old even bother trying, regardless of how good their eyesight/reflexes/etc still is ?



Again, there is no age limit.  Just amount of information your brain can process.  It's truly like drinking from a fire hose (the training that is) and as we all know, the older you get, the harder it becomes to learn something new.  But there is no age.  People went through Fighter Pilot training well into their 30s.


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## Bass ackwards

Interesting.
Thanks for the info.


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## LOLslamball

Hey SupersonicMax, 
just thought of another question.  I have heard a lot about other members of the Air Force (whether it be AECs or future pilots on OJT) getting to go up in planes.  How common is this? and how difficult is it? (is it just a matter of saying, hey take me up one day, or is it more of a right place right time if you're lucky type of thing)


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## dimsum

LOLslamball said:
			
		

> Hey SupersonicMax,
> just thought of another question.  I have heard a lot about other members of the Air Force (whether it be AECs or future pilots on OJT) getting to go up in planes.  How common is this? and how difficult is it? (is it just a matter of saying, hey take me up one day, or is it more of a right place right time if you're lucky type of thing)



I'll let Max answer for the fighter force, but in my (admittedly little) experience, it isn't uncommon.  Basically, talk to the Squadron Operations people and ask to go up on a trip; there's usually a form (basically a passenger request) that you fill out and pick what flights you'd like to go on.  The 2 squadrons I've worked in are pretty easy-going with it, as long as it's a routine mission and they have the space.


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## aesop081

IIRC, you have to get a "seat check" for the Hornet. I think there is a day of the week where the Cold Lake seat shop does it. The its a matter of getting a Sqn to take you.


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## SupersonicMax

If you're on OJT at the squadron and you have a Secret Clearance, flying is not a big deal.  OJTs don't normally ask to go on flights, but if they do good work, they'll normally be rewarded with flights. It's obviously on a "seat available" basis, and any qualified pilots that want to go in the backseat will have priority.  But for most people, unless there is a pressing reason (currencies being one), people will not take your flights away from you.

There are a few things to get before you can go flying.  You need a valid pilot medical or a monthly medical clearance.  Second, you need a valid seat check for the Hornet (as mentionned by Cdn Aviator), a clearance to fly from the Squadron CO (Wing Commander if you are flying on an AMT waiver) and Aeromedical Training (or the waiver). 

That is all,

SSM


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## Zoomie

or... you could go over to the helicopter unit and get in some flying while being able to get out from time to time to stretch your legs.


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## GAP

:rofl:


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## dimsum

Zoomie said:
			
		

> or... you could go over to the helicopter unit and get in some flying while being able to get out from time to time to stretch your legs.



Or, in the case of an Aurora, go and have a meal.


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## LOLslamball

SupersonicMax,

I was wondering if there are any posting opportunities for pilots?


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## aesop081

LOLslamball said:
			
		

> I was wondering if there are any posting opportunities for pilots?



Many.


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## SupersonicMax

Cold Lake and Bagotville are the figther bases in Canada.  Ground jobs are normally in Ottawa or Winnipeg, with the possibility of going to the US or Germany.  You may have to do some time in training units, like 2 CFFTS in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.  There are a few flying exchange possible, namely in the US (California(Navy F-18), South Carolina(Marine Corps, F-18) and Alaska(USAF F-16)), and the Netherland (F-16).


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## LOLslamball

wow, that was a dumb post by me.  I meant to ask about postings outside of Canada.  Thanks for being nice.   :facepalm:

-How difficult is it to switch over to an F-16 from a CF-18?(or between any two fighters for that matter) In terms of flying.  Landing on an Aircraft Carrier after being used to a runway?

-How competitive is it to get a flying exchange and how long do they last?

-I read from the forces.ca website that "Fast Jet (...includes Instructional duties on the Harvard II aircraft)" how many fast jet candidates get instructional duties? Did you instruct, and if so was it a highlight of training for you or something that was a struggle to get through?


Thanks for your responses and if you ever get tired of answering questions feel free to let me know.


----------



## SupersonicMax

LOLslamball said:
			
		

> -How difficult is it to switch over to an F-16 from a CF-18?(or between any two fighters for that matter) In terms of flying.  Landing on an Aircraft Carrier after being used to a runway?




No idea, I haven't been on exchange yet.  However, I can't imagine it being that hard.  The concepts are the same, the systems & tactics are a bit different.  But from what people seem to say, it's not that complex.  


Only the Navy exchange pilot will do his Carrier Qual.  Seems like a lot of fun.




			
				LOLslamball said:
			
		

> -How competitive is it to get a flying exchange and how long do they last?




Quite competitive.  There is one position per exchange at any given time. Exchanges last 2-3 years.  A lot of it is timing.  But you need a strong file (both officership and flying) I forgot to mention there is also a UK exchange on the Tornado GR4.  



			
				LOLslamball said:
			
		

> -I read from the forces.ca website that "Fast Jet (...includes Instructional duties on the Harvard II aircraft)" how many fast jet candidates get instructional duties? Did you instruct, and if so was it a highlight of training for you or something that was a struggle to get through?




After you get your wings on the Hawk, you are either streamed to Fighters or to Instructor.  This is what they mean.  I have not instructed and went straight to Hornets.  I am not sure of the ratios and it depends on the needs of the CF in the end.  Some guys will go back to Moose Jaw after a few years of flying the Hornet and instruct on the Harvard II or the Hawk.


----------



## Mab163

Wow great post SupersonicMax!

Just 1 more question. Once you have completed the CF18 course at 410 in Cold Lake, how the CF decide if you are posted to Cold Lake or Bagotville? If you are a french guy, do you have priority to go to Bagotville?


----------



## Flyingismything

Hello everyone,

since i was a kid, i wanted to become a fighter pilot. I know, just like any other kids.... It's been 7+ years and counting i have had a passion for aviation. I have spent countless hours on simulation games. I am now coming up to the part of my life where i need to make a choice for my career. I hear people say all the time: i regret it so much, I didn't follow my dreams of becoming a fighter pilot. I don't want this to happen to me. I am in secondary 4 in highschool in Quebec and i have to make a college choice for next year. What is the best career path for someone looking forward to becoming an officer/pilot in the RCAF? Any tips? Anyways I am thinking about joining the cadets in the next days. I have taken in consideration the royal military college in Kingston. Thanks in advance for all of the helpfull answers!

 and proud to be!  :nod:


----------



## Loachman

Flyingismything said:
			
		

> since i was a kid, i wanted to become a fighter pilot. I know, just like any other kids....



No, not "just like any other kids".

I wanted to be a Tac Hel Pilot, because my parents were married, I wanted to be a net benefit to society, and I valued my reputation.



			
				Flyingismything said:
			
		

> I hear people say all the time: i regret it so much, I didn't follow my dreams of becoming a fighter pilot.



Then I shall be a source of refreshment for you. I had no such dreams, and have no such regrets.



			
				Flyingismything said:
			
		

> Thanks in advance for all of the helpfull answers!



Well, mine wasn't, but I don't regret that either.


----------



## 2010newbie

Take a look at some of the other threads in the recruiting and Air Force forums before posting; there is a lot of info in there. This one is specific to fighter pilot:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/103289.0.html

Additionally, understand that you do not join "as a fighter pilot". You will join as a Pilot Candidate and be processed into one of three streams after your basic flight training is complete. In my personal opinion, I think the best path forward at your age is aiming towards being a successful ROTP candidate at whatever university, RMC or civy.


----------



## AGD

Okay, I count two actual questions in here, so I'll give 'em a try.



			
				Flyingismything said:
			
		

> What is the best career path for someone looking forward to becoming an officer/pilot in the RCAF?



Do you mean what program of study? Might I suggest mechanical engineering? Gives you something to fall back on in case it doesn't work out for you.



> Any tips?



See about a thousand other threads in these forums for examples.

It's been said that for every 800 people who walk through the doors of the CFRC wanting to become a pilot, one actually earns his wings.

That person then has a ~25% chance of being selected for the fast-jet stream, give or take, depending on the needs of the CF.

For ROTP, you'll be going up against applicants with 90% averages in high school, captains of sports teams, hundreds of volunteer hours, 6+ years of cadets, maybe some with experience in the reserves, and maybe some who already have their pilot's license. Hopefully, you've done a thing or to that will make you competitive.

You have a passion for aviation? Why not become a commercial pilot? Why limit yourself to fighters?


----------



## Journeyman

Loachman said:
			
		

> I wanted to be a Tac Hel Pilot, because my parents were married,


My parents were married..._to each other_... so I know that airplanes are for jumping out of.   :nod:

As for the actual question(s)...... I got nothin'


----------



## Liberator

Dear colleagues, fellow aspiring and working pilots,

I am currently on a life mission to become a fighter pilot for the CF. As many of you, I dreamed of one day becoming a pilot in the army when I was kid. I built model airplanes and read about different fighter jets starting at the age of 9. Subsequently, I started getting poor vision and being a kid I listened to my parents and teachers, who told me I'll never be a pilot with my eyesight problems. So eventually I stopped thinking about pursuing this as a career, until several months ago... My girlfriend learned about my childhood dream and got me an intro flight lesson as a gift and I took the lesson. It was probably the best day of my life. Anyway, I had just finished film school and I was happy with my career choice but not passionate. I've spent weeks now researching the about the Canadian Air Forces and the rigorous process some of you out there have gone through in order to fuel your flame for flying  . I am actually going back to school in Sept. to finish my bachelors degree and to start applying to the CF as a pilot. I'll also be doing iLasik surgery to correct my vision. In case anyone had the same concern I had, corrected vision is ok, you just have to wait 6 months and 1 day after the day of the surgery in order to apply. 

I was wondering if anyone had advice for me, I am at a crossroad with which degree to choose. Several years ago I started my Bachelors of Psychology, but I'm almost positive that wont fly with the selection committee, excuse the pun. I was looking at majoring in geography and minoring in film as a back up. Geography correlates a lot more than psychology to piloting, therefore it might look better in my application. Also, Ill learn valuable lessons on weather, maps, etc. Is there another degree that you pilots took that helped you not only in the application process but in your jobs as pilots? 

Thanks


----------



## Liberator

P.S. Does the army look at your highschool grades or just your university gpa when you apply?  I'm thinking of paying for my degree on my own and not taking the governments dollar to avoid the risk of being drafted as an officer and possibly not getting a position as a pilot. 

Any volunteering position suggestions? 

Lastly, will the recruiting committee like to see that I am also involved in film and entertainment as a hobby/business or as "extra-curricular"? Or should I solely show them airplane, martial arts related things?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Welcome.

Please do a search. There is a lot of information here for the aspiring pilot.

Much of it very recent. 

Please read all that you can find here. I'm sure you'll get your answers.

Also, please read the Site Guidelines very soon.


Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Liberator

AGD or anyone else,

Besides Mechanical Engineering, could you suggest any other degrees to take, to enhance our applications. Would geography be a good course to study? Would an applicant even have a shot with a psychology degree? 

And do they look at only your univ. gpa or at highschool grades as well?


----------



## Corey Darling

Science/Physics, Engineering or Math Degrees (will leave options open to you for test pilot if interested).

You might be surprised to learn that there are pilots in the training system with Music degrees.  So that said, I don't see why a psych degree would be out of the question.

Have any university transcripts ready along with your highschool transcript - they will likely want to see everything.


----------



## Maxadia

Corey said:
			
		

> Science/Physics, Engineering or Math Degrees (will leave options open to you for test pilot if interested).
> 
> You might be surprised to learn that there are pilots in the training system with Music degrees.  So that said, I don't see why a psych degree would be out of the question.



Some might be surprised at how smart some people with the most "useless" degrees are...


----------



## Liberator

Thanks for the quick reply guys, I am in the process of changing my major for the upcoming semester. 

I am considering a "useless" degree in order to get a higher gpa. I am just worried about my high school transcript, because I wasn't motivated back then and I had no aspirations. Do you guys think my outrageous grades from highschool will effect the committee's decision, even if my univ. grades are high?

thanks


----------



## Corey Darling

RDJP said:
			
		

> Some might be surprised at how smart some people with the most "useless" degrees are...



I didn't say that there weren't, and I didn't use the word "useless" anywhere in that post. 

Cheers


----------



## Maxadia

Corey said:
			
		

> I didn't say that there weren't, and I didn't use the word "useless" anywhere in that post.
> 
> Cheers



Didn't say that you did, just a comment.


----------



## Corey Darling

Fair enough - I just didn't want it to sound as though I was making a jab at those programs in particular. I was only using it as a comparison of the merits of a psych degree for relative importance in an application for pilot.  



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> Thanks for the quick reply guys, I am in the process of changing my major for the upcoming semester.
> 
> I am considering a "useless" degree in order to get a higher gpa. I am just worried about my high school transcript, because I wasn't motivated back then and I had no aspirations. Do you guys think my outrageous grades from highschool will effect the committee's decision, even if my univ. grades are high?
> 
> thanks



I would suggest choosing a program which you enjoy.  Nothing worse than spending 4 years stuck learning a tedious or dull subject, particularly if it's mind numbingly easy.

If you enjoy Psych, talk to a recruiter to see if that program is acceptable.  (while on the subject, are you applying ROTP or DEO?)


----------



## Liberator

Lol their not useless degrees, but I have some friends who have psych degrees and even economics degrees and arent finding jobs. Bachelor degrees on their own are quite "useless" unless a persons got a solid plan of what he/she can do with it.


----------



## Liberator

I've actually got 2.5 years left to complete my bachelors and I am most likely applying as DEO. I only want to be a pilot, i wont be happy in any other trade. Therefore, Im dishing out myself for my degree, to minimize the risk of being drafted in a different trade in case I wont make. 

cheers


----------



## Corey Darling

I can admit to you that my chosen field of study is quite useless aswell  :-\ (in terms of employment. It is however perfectly useful with respect to my own interests).  It's all about the post grad when it comes to jobs.



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> I've actually got 2.5 years left to complete my bachelors and I am most likely applying as DEO. I only want to be a pilot, i wont be happy in any other trade. Therefore, Im dishing out myself for my degree, to minimize the risk of being drafted in a different trade in case I wont make.
> 
> cheers



Here is something to consider - Suppose you applied ROTP and were accepted for pilot.  If for some reason things didn't go according to plan, and you had to take up another trade, then at the very least, you still have full time employment with great pay and benefits (compared to most university graduates).

While you are "paying back" the remainder of your subsidized time, you can be using that money towards a civilian commerical pilots license.  Then, when your obligatory service is up (which would only be ~3 years), you can choose to stay in, or leave and work on becoming a pilot in the civilian market.

Otherwise, you'd be out on the street with only an undergratuate degree and trying to find work to fund your passion for flying.

Edit: ...In addition to the debt taken on from your University program.

Just some food for thought.


----------



## Liberator

Thanks Corey thats actually a great idea, something to really think about. I must have had the wrong information, because I thought as an officer you have to serve much longer ~7 years. Even doing the - serving 2 months for 1 month of school formula didnt add up to me serving only 3 years =S

You're absolutely right though about having good pay and benefits right out of school. I just finished Film school and I'm finishing my bachelors degree at the moment with a minor in film, so if I fall back on anything it'll probably that. 

Great tip though, I'm going to deeply consider that option.


----------



## Corey Darling

The 7 Years for pilot starts once wings qualified.

If you have 2.5 years of school left, that's really just 20 months of actual semester time (8+8+4). so 40 months = 3.3 years of obligatory service.

If you spent the entire 4 year degree in ROTP, it would be 5 years of obligatory service.

Corey


----------



## Liberator

I was counting summer courses, therefore, you would roll up the number of months by 2 summers, 8 more months, a year and half of service more. Nevertheless, its a bright idea go the direction that you described. I'll definitely consider it. 

Thanks


----------



## aesop081

Liberator said:
			
		

> to minimize the risk of being drafted in a different trade in case I wont make.



We don't draft people into anything.

From one of your other posts:



> I'm thinking of paying for my degree on my own and not taking the governments dollar to avoid the risk of being drafted as an officer and possibly not getting a position as a pilot.



Again, we do not draft anyone into anything.

BTW, pilots *are* officers.


----------



## Danjanou

Liberator said:
			
		

> Lol their not useless degrees, but I have some friends who have psych degrees and even economics degrees and arent finding jobs. Bachelor degrees on their own are quite "useless" unless a persons got a solid plan of what he/she can do with it.




Hmm I have a "useless BA" and had no problems getting and maintaining a well paying and rewarding job with it. Mind I also located the spell check feature on my computer prior to sending my resume.  8)


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Hmm I have a "useless BA" and had no problems getting and maintaining a well paying and rewarding job with it. Mind I also located the spell check feature on my computer prior to sending my resume.  8)



"Spell check" isn't going to catch the grammatical errors in that lad's posting, even my "useless" 11 Ontario high school credits could see that. ^-^


----------



## AGD

Liberator said:
			
		

> Besides Mechanical Engineering, could you suggest any other degrees to take, to enhance our applications. Would geography be a good course to study? Would an applicant even have a shot with a psychology degree?



No, I just say mechanical engineering because it's a good fallback option, and if you're interested in flying, chances are good you're interested in science/engineering subject matter as well.

The CFRC will tell you for sure which degrees are acceptable for pilot and to my knowledge, there are very few that aren't.



> Some might be surprised at how smart some people with the most "useless" degrees are...



Very true. Some of them land great jobs too. 

I find that it's the _individual _ who is useless, not the degree. Just my  :2c:


----------



## Danjanou

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> "Spell check" isn't going to catch the grammatical errors in that lad's posting, even my "useless" 11 Ontario high school credits could see that. ^-^



True but a good grasp of the English language and rules of grammar as taught in Gr 11 back when we did it and a bit of common sense would have.  8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Hmm I have a "useless BA" and had no problems getting and maintaining a well paying and rewarding job with it. Mind I also located the spell check feature on my computer prior to sending my resume.  8)


When did you get the second job, bud?  ;D


----------



## Danjanou

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> When did you get the second job, bud?  ;D



D/S here is not well paying and rewarding?  ;D


----------



## GAP

Awh.......comeon guys....you're gonna hurt his esteem ....and then we just end up with a CDS.....instead of a pilot......


----------



## Liberator

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We don't draft people into anything.
> 
> From one of your other posts:
> 
> Again, we do not draft anyone into anything.
> 
> BTW, pilots *are* officers.



I know pilots are officers, thanks for your  :2c:. I was exaggerating when I said, I didn't want to be drafted, as in I do not want to do anything else besides being a pilot. Also, my English is fine, it's actually my third language and this is a forum between dudes with a common interest not an English tutoring club. 

Lets get the real men out.


----------



## Liberator

GAP said:
			
		

> Awh.......comeon guys....you're gonna hurt his esteem ....and then we just end up with a CDS.....instead of a pilot......



Trust me, Gay and Proud, my selfesteem won't be hurt. I was here to talk to some real pilots who want to inspire others, who have the same dreams that they once had.


----------



## SupersonicMax

The way you act around here doesn't really make me want help you out.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Liberator said:
			
		

> Trust me, Gay and Proud, my selfesteem won't be hurt. I was here to talk to some real pilots who want to inspire others, who have the same dreams that they once had.


Liberator:  Personal attacks are NOT on here.

Welcome to the warning system - use the time out to think about what others have shared here.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Loachman

Well, congratulations, young lad.

One day from registration to being moderated.

Not a record, but still pretty quick.

In addition to my colleague's previous post:



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> I was here to talk to some real pilots who want to inspire others, who have the same dreams that they once had.



Your attitude has just reduced your chances of that considerably. You might want to adjust it, significantly, should you wish to benefit from this site or have a decent crack at a CF career.

One significant factor that you should consider while evaluating my suggestion is that, of the people on this site, one may be the Recruiter handling your enrollment, some may be Instructors on your various courses, including flying courses, and some may be your Flight Commander or Commanding Officer should you actually make it to a Squadron. Many of us know each other outside of this Site, and, yes, we talk to each other. We are also quite good at picking up clues and forming sound conclusions.

While the odds of one of those people making a link between you and your posts is small, it has happened in the past and some satisfaction has been derived from learning that a problem child on this site has flamed out on a course for precisely the same reasons.

Regardless, getting snitty with _*anybody*_ who is likely to have any influence on your future is just plain stupid personal policy.

Okay, maybe a few people ribbed you a little. Maybe they should not have, but that's life and it's going to happen throughout and especially in the environment that you seek to enter. Get used to it, and learn to deal with it, else you'll alienate your peers as well as your superiors. Explain yourself calmly, or toss similar remarks back good-naturedly, as appropriate, and you'll probably do alright but outright insults, cheap shots, and airs of arrogance are not recommended.



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> I was exaggerating when I said, I didn't want to be drafted



And we here can tell that you were exaggerating how? We do not know you yet, and there is no tone or body language to give any clues, so any expectation of being interpreted in any other manner than literally is baseless. We will, simply and reasonably, presume that you say what you mean and mean what you say.



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> Also, my English is fine, it's actually my third language



In which case, you are doing quite well and I have a healthy respect for people who can communicate effectively in any language other than their own. There is always some room for improvement, however, even among those whose first language is English. More allowance is actually given here to people who obviously speak English as a second, third, or whatever language.

The CF values clear and effective verbal and written communication highly, as minor errors can cost lives, equipment, wasted time and effort, mission success, and/or huge sums of public money. As one progresses higher in rank and responsibility, a higher standard of communication (and of everything else) is expected. As the majority of people on this Site are or were serving CF members, including people of significant rank and responsibility, we have the same expectations here. Get used to being picked up for errors in spelling, grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Learn and benefit, or snark off and be treated accordingly. That holds true in real life as well.



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> this is a forum between dudes with a common interest not an English tutoring club.



It is a forum for _*men*_, not "dudes", and _*women*_ as well, with an interest in the CF. It is owned and operated by members and former members of the CF. In order to provide members, former members, would-be members, and interested civilians with a CF-like online environment it includes, yes, "an English tutoring club" as part of the package of benefits.

And don't try and tell people who help run this Site through donations of time and/or money what it is or is not. If you do not like what it is, feel free to start your own.



			
				Liberator said:
			
		

> Lets get the real men out.



You have. Many of the adults on this Site, and that includes _*real women*_ as well as real men, have done far more than you can even begin to comprehend. If you want to be accepted on this Site and in the CF, you need to prove yourself to us. We have already proven ourselves to each other, and feel no personal need to prove ourselves to you, especially after your last couple of posts.

We owe you nothing at all. We'll go to great lengths, however, to help you out if we feel that you are worth the effort.

What happens from this point on is up to you. Take this lesson like a "real man", learn from it, benefit, and carry on or throw your Teddy in the corner and sulk off. Your choice.

By the way, I think that you _*might*_ be worth some effort, or I would not have killed off the time that it took to compose this.

As for a choice of degree, it doesn't make any difference. A degree is merely an entrance requirement. Precious little will actually be of any practical value as a Pilot. You're not going to be composing sonnets or calculating the vertical stresses on synthetic widgets under high loads while trying to bomb the snot out of somebody at night.

You will be taught everything that you need to know on the courses that you will take, if you are selected. Up until somebody decided to justify RMC's continued existence, a high school diploma was the minimum educational requirement. Those under-educated pilots managed to stay alive, get to where they wanted to go, find, rescue, deliver, or blow up whoever or whatever they needed to, and lead others just fine.


----------



## Good2Golf

...also consider keeping your mind open to capabilities other than fighters.   

As a young kid, I wanted to fly: a) on The Snowbirds, b) Starfighters, and c) Search and Rescue.  In the end, and not by my own choice initially, I did none of those but ended up in an incredibly interesting and rewarding organization, doing some things that didn't even exist at the time I joined.  Sure...keep a motivating dream/vision in your mind, but also don't be too disappointed if things don't go the way that you thought you wanted them to go.

Determination and hard work as well as a willingness to accept advice from others will go a long way.

:2c: more...


Regards
G2G


----------



## Strike

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...also consider keeping your mind open to capabilities other than fighters.
> 
> As a young kid, I wanted to fly: a) on The Snowbirds, b) Starfighters, and c) Search and Rescue.  In the end, and not by my own choice initially, I did none of those but ended up in an incredibly interesting and rewarding organization, doing some things that didn't even exist at the time I joined.  Sure...keep a motivating dream/vision in your mind, but also don't be too disappointed if things don't go the way that you thought you wanted them to go.
> 
> Determination and hard work as well as a willingness to accept advice from others will go a long way.
> 
> :2c: more...
> 
> 
> Regards
> G2G



I recall two very different people on my helo wings course.  Both REALLY wanted to go multi-engine.  One was a former Nav who wanted to stick with what was familiar and also wanted to be posted to Winnipeg due to health issues within the family.  The other was thinking years ahead and wanted the option to fly for Big Red when the time came.  Both were gutted when they got helos.

Here's where things diverge.  The Nav came in to the course thinking, "I'll give it to my first flight.  If I don't like it, I'll go back to Nav."  The other just came in with a bad attitude.

The Nav LOVED his first flight, never looked back, and topped the course (beat me by .5%!).  The other guy didn't realize until well past the point of no return that helos were actually a lot of fun.  He failed, is out of the CF and is flying for peanuts somewhere in northern Quebec.

Moral of the story - don't limit yourself to one choice.  You may end up screwing yourself out of something that could be just as good, if not better.

(This message has been brought to you by a _*woman*_ who, at one point, was a Tac Hel pilot.)


----------



## Liberator

Hello all,

I would like to apologize to the men and women on milnet for my last comments. I was uneducated about how this site runs and operates. However, I took the time to read all of the guidelines after I was muted. I felt like a few members made some jabs at me and since I am new to this forum and forums in general, I took it the wrong way. I did not in fact show my true self during those posts, I was pissed off and irritated due to several reasons and I made some immature comments. Don't take it the wrong way, I really didn't mean to be rude or ill-mannered. Hope that whoever I offended will accept my apology. 

So far I have found the information on this forum insightful and the answers to my inquiries helpful. Prior to joining milnet, I had done months of research on becoming a fighter pilot in the CF. However, it only took a full day of reading on this site for me to clarify a lot of significant steps and prerequisites of an aspiring pilot. I am very grateful that I came across all of this valuable information. Therefore, I would be disappointed if I had lost this privilege. 

Thanks Loachman for clarifying the information regarding my degree. I believe I am going to transfer into geography because I might learn more significant information than in my current degree of psychology. For example, Geo will cover subjects like weather patterns, features of land and cartography. I think Geography will be more valuable for aviation rather than psych and it might boost my application, even though they say any degree go's. I understand a lot of variables come into play like physical and mental aptitude, volunteer hours, work experience, perhaps flying experience and not just a candidates degree. I just want to do my best at as much of those factors as I can.

I appreciate everybody's help thus far, it is a difficult journey as you all know but, you men and women are making it making it that much easier to follow my dreams.

I am in fact a poor writer, but hopefully I expressed at least part of my sincere gratitude towards your help.


----------



## Loachman

Done properly.

Carry on, and good luck.


----------



## Maxadia

Well played sir....well played.

Good luck in your application.


----------



## Loachman

And by the way, Liberator, everybody makes mistakes. What counts far more is how they recover from them, as you have demonstrated.


----------



## Liberator

Just glad we got the negativity out of the way. Now, lets talk planes.   :jet:


----------



## Loachman

That thing? The wings are seized. How can it fly?


----------



## aesop081

Loachman said:
			
		

> That thing?



It's like a real plane but smaller.



> The wings are seized.



Well.........


----------



## GAP

Loachman said:
			
		

> That thing? The wings are seized. How can it fly?



You have to start them turning by hand, then they go just fine.....isn't that what the GIB is for?


----------



## jparkin

Liberator said:
			
		

> I understand a lot of variables come into play like physical and mental aptitude, volunteer hours, work experience, perhaps flying experience and not just a candidates degree.



Don't forget experience in holding leadership positions!


----------



## Liberator

jparkin said:
			
		

> Don't forget experience in holding leadership positions!



Yeah, definitely! I'm currently volunteering and these hours are getting me some leadership experience. I also have some work experience in a managerial position. Good call though!


----------



## gobelin

Great post SupersonicMax!

I have another quick question.  Surely there must be height/size requirements to fit in a CF-18.  Can you (or anyone else) tell us anything about this? Is there a definite maximum height?

Thanks again!


----------



## benny88

gobelin said:
			
		

> Great post SupersonicMax!
> 
> I have another quick question.  Surely there must be height/size requirements to fit in a CF-18.  Can you (or anyone else) tell us anything about this? Is there a definite maximum height?
> 
> Thanks again!



Hi gobelin,

      There are indeed height and size requirements to be a CF pilot, but they are a common standard to be enrolled as a pilot, not specific to the CF-18 or any other airframe. There is not a "definite maximum height", but rather a series of measurements. For instance, someone could be 6'4 and good to go, while another who is 6'2 may be too long from hip to knee to fit in ejection seat aircraft. Search around the forums for information on Aircrew Selection and you'll find lots.


----------



## skrob

Liberator said:
			
		

> AGD or anyone else,
> 
> Besides Mechanical Engineering, could you suggest any other degrees to take, to enhance our applications. Would geography be a good course to study? Would an applicant even have a shot with a psychology degree?
> 
> And do they look at only your univ. gpa or at highschool grades as well?



FWIW, I was on Aircrew Selection with a guy who had a psych degree, had no previous flying experience and he made it through and is on BMOQ as we speak.
Also, I have  Mechanical Engineering degree with a 2.98gpa (not fantastic), and had an 80% avg in high school.  I got an offer in April for pilot but turned it down for personal reasons.


----------



## AGD

skrob said:
			
		

> I got an offer in April for pilot but turned it down for personal reasons.



That must have been really tough...wasn't this your third attempt?


----------



## skrob

AGD said:
			
		

> That must have been really tough...wasn't this your third attempt?


Yes & yes. By far the toughest decision in my 30 year life. But I'm proud I made it that far and made some good friends at ASC.


----------



## bdb1231

I think in theory, the younger you are, the more likely they will hire you.


----------



## Melbatoast

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I think in theory, the younger you are, the more likely they will hire you.



Wrong?  Around 2008 the average age of new entry pilots was 32 and looking at my fellow OJTs it's not any different a few years later.  In fact, hiring is probably opposite to what you think, the older you are (i.e. more life experience) the better candidate you present for the recruiter.  So without any numbers (but actual experience of the process) to back it up I would say you have a better percentage chance of being hired as an an older candidate than as a younger one.


----------



## incoming_003

Thanks for the excellent post SupersonicMax!


I've heard various rumours that persons who have had laser eye surgery are not able to enter the fighter stream. Is this just a rumour or would you know if it's actually true?

Thank you!


----------



## Melbatoast

incoming_003 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the excellent post SupersonicMax!
> 
> 
> I've heard various rumours that persons who have had laser eye surgery are not able to enter the fighter stream. Is this just a rumour or would you know if it's actually true?
> 
> Thank you!



Nothing like that in my med file, and I've also asked my doc outright and she said I have no restrictions.  I have also not seen anything to that effect in any of the medical standards and policy documents I've looked at, but of course that list isn't exhaustive.  So, I'm working under the impression that it doesn't matter.


----------



## trampbike

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I think in theory, the younger you are, the more likely they will hire you.



No, as long as you can serve for 7 years post-wings before reaching the madatory retiring age (I think it's still 60, but oen would have to confirm), the age does not influence your application. In fact, as Melbatoast wrote, older people might actually have a better application, since it's likely they have more work  and life experience.


----------



## 742_guy

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> Nothing like that in my med file, and I've also asked my doc outright and she said I have no restrictions.  I have also not seen anything to that effect in any of the medical standards and policy documents I've looked at, but of course that list isn't exhaustive.  So, I'm working under the impression that it doesn't matter.



This is good news, I'm a first year at RMC and looking into having the procedure done, I've got an appt. booked with a flight surgeon the 17th, so whatever information I can bring regarding fast jets and eye surgery, I'll put up here!

Cheers, and happy thanksgiving!


----------



## Melbatoast

742_guy said:
			
		

> This is good news, I'm a first year at RMC and looking into having the procedure done, I've got an appt. booked with a flight surgeon the 17th, so whatever information I can bring regarding fast jets and eye surgery, I'll put up here!
> 
> Cheers, and happy thanksgiving!



I recently got the answer regarding any assumed medical restrictions back from AUMB and I officially have no restrictions on the type of aircraft I can fly. Still anecdotal but there's no guessing involved anymore, for me at least.


----------



## daniel12

I am in grade 10 and have an 80% average (trying hard to get it higher). I want to attend ROTP at RMC and study Aviation Technology during my stay. I will also be attending air cadets in the near future.  I was just wondering what my marks would have to be at RMC(opinion as I understand there is no clear answer) to get me into the occupation that I chose (fighter pilot). 

Thanks, Daniel


----------



## pa471856

Here's a couple good places to start:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103289.0.html - Fighter Pilot Thread

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12744.0.html - General Pilot Thread

Also try the search function you can find most of the things that you would like there. As for your marks, the higher they are the better. Aim for 100%.


----------



## daniel12

On that first thread that you posted, I saw that the original poster said he joined the military at the age of 16 through the reserves. Would doing this help my chances of getting into RMC or even becoming a pilot?


----------



## pa471856

I am not an expert on this. I am a pilot applicant myself and I have applied for ROTP, CEOTP, and DEO. I still have yet to receive a job offer, but this year I finally got to attend aircrew selection and passed. 

I know that for ROTP you need very good marks I had low 80's back in 2004 and that wasn't quite good enough.  As for the reserves I know of one guy who got in on a component transfer from the reserves, but I have heard mixed reviews whether or not that is a good way to go. It did work out for this individual though. There are a certain number of spots open specifically for component transfers every year, but I have heard that in some cases it can take much longer to process if you go this way.

Maybe somebody more experienced can help you, but most of the information you seek can be found by searching and reading through the multiple pilot threads. Look under "recruiting" and "aircrew trades"


----------



## daniel12

Did you attend RMC? I heard that RMC-goers are guarenteed a job upon graduation. I'm not sure if its true or not


----------



## MikeL

If you are accepted into the CF you are guaranteed a job.

daniel12, there is no "Fighter Pilot" trade;  it is just Pilot.  Also there is  no guarantee you will end up a CF18 pilot.  I'm sure if you search around a bit on the forums you can find out the different streams,  how people get into each, etc.


----------



## SIROEW

daniel12 said:
			
		

> On that first thread that you posted, I saw that the original poster said he joined the military at the age of 16 through the reserves. Would doing this help my chances of getting into RMC or even becoming a pilot?



Last year I was considering the same thing, as in joining the reserves to increase my chances at getting selected for ROTP. I went to talk to the recruiter at the unit one night and asked him, and he told me that because of the fact that you must do a component transfer means that it might take much longer than need be, and I would have to apply for the transfer only a month or two after I join. Once processed, there is also a chance that you could not transfer trades for a particular reason. As well as that, joining the reserves the year that you apply for ROTP would have minimal (positive) impact on your application, since, by the time you hand in your application, you would only have a handful of months in the unit. I was also told that they prefer to hire people that intend to stick around the unit for a number of years, instead of someone who will only be with them for less than a year.

Once again, all this information is second hand through me, but originating from a knowledgeable source.


Best of luck!!


----------



## daniel12

Hey max, I was just wondering what your path was from grade 10 (if you remember haha).

Did you join air cadets?
What were your high school marks?
What tips do you have to push yourself up the fighter stream over the heli or multi?


----------



## SingingPilot

Hi Max!

So, just a quick run down: I am a F/Sgt. and a flight commander in the RCACS; I got both my Glider and Power Pilot wings, and was recently decorated with the Lord Strathcona medal. I am coming out of high school (graduating this June) hopefully with an International Baccalaureate (IB) Diploma along with my Alberta Diploma. I am applying for the Pilot occupation, ROTP Kingston, and I will be having my CFAT, Medical test, and interview in less than a week (2012, Jan. 28). I have a few questions:


-I am quite nervous for both the CFAT and the Interview. Any tips, advice, and things that I should note? Anything that I should still prepare for? I know CFAT is something but anything specific (I'm quite aware that you are not allowed to give out information that are on the CFAT) advice than just study? =P 

For the interview, what can I do to further prepare for it? Specifically for the Pilot occupation?



Thank you very much for your time!


----------



## SkyHeff

To better prepare for the interview, specifically for the pilot occupation (or any that interest you), you should understand what the job and the life could entail.

As for the CFAT, search the forums on this website, there are more threads than I can track about that subject.


----------



## South

1) There is no "aviation technology" at RMC. The closest is an aerospace engineering B.Eng. However, you can do the Seneca College type thing now and can get a college degree/diploma. It's on the recruiting website. Check it out.

2) The air force is in need of more pilots. The trade is open to applicants. If you put it down, pass the selection testing and really want it, there's a good chance you'll get it _in my opinion_. Good luck.

3) You don't do pilot training until after you graduate from RMC (or other university) now (as of this year). The exception is the Seneca/other flight college program. Then you do several phases of training before you are assigned to an aircraft type. You preference is taken into account but it doesn't guarantee anything.


----------



## curious22

To be a pilot in the CF is a long, difficult road. Yes you need good marks and also be a well rounded person. There is the application process with appitude tests, interviews etc. Then there is aircrew selection, which is in itself a tough go. Then basic training, university education (RMC or Civvy). primary flight training (Manitoba), basic flight training (Saskatchewan), survival training etc. You have to be very determined to be successful in all that. One thing a youth must ask themselves, why do I want to be a fighter pilot? "Jetstream" which aired on the Discovery Channel a while back (and can still be viewed on Youtube) is a documentary on becoming a CF -18 pilot in the forces. One of the most memorable quotes from one of the instructors was "do not wake up Sunday morning after watching Top Gun and decide this is something you want to do". I think the meaning is, while a great career, there is a lot of dedication, hard work and sacrifice to get there.


----------



## 2010newbie

dmt111 said:
			
		

> 3) You don't do pilot training until after you graduate from RMC (or other university) now (as of this year).



Do you have a source for this? Completing PFT prior to the end of university would speed up the training process and PFT can easily be completed during the summer, especially with the shortened syllabus.


----------



## Melbatoast

It was certainly cancelled this summer for people on subsidized education (I was scheduled, now it's more OJT [I think, no one has let me know]), although I can't see it being exclusively due to Seneca. Surely they can get those folks on one course? I was told that I would be re-loaded next summer (my last of school).

Doesn't matter, I'm just a little cog in a much bigger machine.

That said, summer PFT doesn't seem to save all that much time as it's not nearly as long as follow-on phases are.


----------



## 2010newbie

So you would be reloaded between you 3rd and 4th years? That would make sense because isn't that what they normally try to do? BMOQ between 1st and 2nd, SLT or OJT between 2nd and 3rd, PFT between 3rd and 4th, and AMT, sea and land survival after you graduate. 90% of the people I was on course with last summer followed that training schedule. As for saving time, it saves a few months at least. I graduate in a couple weeks and then I'm loaded for AMT and BFT within three months of my grad date. 

I didn't get my course info until yesterday and I was told to expect a posting message in the next week, so hopefully you'll hear something soon too about your summer.

Good luck!


----------



## justin9

Can anyone elaborate what the ruling for eyesight is? Must you have perfect 20/20 uncorrected vision or is there specific eye surgery available?


----------



## Loachman

There are already discussions regarding that here. Please use the Search Function.


----------



## justin9

I have read that there is an eye surgery allowing you to pursue fighter pilot if you have bad vision but can someone confirm this?


----------



## mariomike

justin9 said:
			
		

> I have read that there is an eye surgery allowing you to pursue fighter pilot if you have bad vision but can someone confirm this?



Reply #60 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25631/post-699692.html#msg699692

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=5838


----------



## Loachman

Mariomike is too kind.

How come he could find that and you could not?

You won't be spoonfed like that during flying training, if you get that far. You'll do your own work, or flop.

The information is already here, as has just been demonstrated. Learn how to find it for yourself.


----------



## Journeyman

Loachman said:
			
		

> How come he could find that and you could not?


Well, he just spent several posts demonstrating his trouble seeing....


----------



## justin9

Hehe bad vision sucks.

I wanted to confirm for a fighter pilot. I have read that it's different for a fighter pilot, something pertaining to altitude and travelling at insane speed in the skies can affect vision of a person who underwent eye surgery, somewhere along this. But since all I have discovered leads to the same answer, and mariomike confirmed and gave me the same link I take that it applies to a figher pilot as well. Thanks again.


----------



## George Wallace

justin9 said:
			
		

> ........, something pertaining to altitude and travelling at insane speed in the skies can affect vision of a person who underwent eye surgery, .......



We have come a long way since the Biplane.  Now we have completely enclosed cockpits on our aircraft.


----------



## Duckman54

Lol!  Nice, Mr. Wallace...  He has a point, tho...  As one of those laser-victims myself, and having a physiology degree, I know a li'l about this.  

PRK Laser surgery uses a CO2 laser beam to blast off bits of the cornea, reshaping that optical focussing surface to, in effect, make that magnifying glass a little 'weaker'. (the problem us near-sighted folks have is that the image focusses just in front of the retina...  the 'lens system' is a wee bit too strong vs length of eyeball).  By thinning and 'weakening' the cornea a little, the image now hits bang-on, and voila!

Problem....  the cornea has been thinned somewhat. In order to maintain their lovely round shape, eyeballs are fluid-filled sacs with a decent amount of PRESSURE inside!  (ever disect cow eyes in highschool science? Squirt!!) When this procedure was new, there was some concern that *IF* a cockpit depressurized (no fear of rapid de-press in biplanes!), the significant pressure inside eyeball COULD POSSIBLY cause the eye to 'bulge' slightly where it has been weakened.  Think week-old balloon...  often shows a weak-spot.  Even the tiniest deformation in that front surface of the eye would COMPLETELY distort one's vision  (the cornea actually does a lot more light-bending than does the internal Lens, which only fine-tunes things a bit). As a Commercial Multi-IFR pilot, I can attest that suddenly distorted vision would be, how you say... NOT Cool!

Forces was taking a cautious approach that this would be a bad way to lose $30M jets, and so regarded all eye-surgery as a dis-allowing factor until they had enough long-term data on enough guinea-pigs like me (ticked the box on the form at the clinic to share my data with Health Canada, Forces, other intersted parties, etc) to prove beyond a doubt that this was not a legitimate fear.  I had the surgery back in '94, applied as DEO Pilot in '96 and was declined bcz of this. 17 years later I've re-applied now that it's allowed, have V1 score, and on my way thru the system. 

As far as I know, PRK (Photo-Refractive Keratectomy) is the *only* surgical corrective procedure Forces are accepting - SO FAR. Still some fear that the 'cutting' involved in some other techniques (LASIK and others) will cause scarring along the cut lines and long-lasting (permanent?) weak spots on the cornea that may never regain their full strength. Who knows...  in 10-15 years, some other techniques may be tested to death and then accepted.

This is all just AS FAR AS I KNOW, based on my personal experience, schooling, and what I remember being told by Opto's, Civilian Pilot Medical Examiners, etc. As always, there are FAR more official sources than Milnet!  lol  Best to go straight to the source...

p.s. Several years before my surgery, my older brother had it's predecessor at same clinic.  Called RK (Radial Keratotomy), whereby the same effect was acheived by cutting several deep slices (80-90% straight down thru cornea, freehand with a diamond-tipped scalpel!!!) in an asterisk pattern, which causes the whole cornea to heal slightly 'flatter'. YEESH!

'Greg.


----------



## 26point2

I had LASIK and it was accepted for my medical.


----------



## Duckman54

See??  That's why I hang out here... Learn something new everyday.  Thanks for the update 26point2!  

Guess there's finally enough LASIK data now to prove that their eyeballs won't explode when exposed to a sudden increase in differential pressure. How fortunate, huh?


----------



## dimsum

I'm looking at the docs direct from the Flight Surg right now as I'm considering getting laser surgery.  The recommended procedures as of Sept 2012 were:

Pilots (already in CF):  
Wavefront Guided PRK
Wavefront Guided LASEK
Wavefront Guided LASIK (femtosecond laser and current gen mech keratomes)
Wavefront Guided Epi-LASIK

Other Aircrew (already in CF):
Same as Pilots but conventional versions allowed

Applicants:
Same as Other Aircrew

Despite being able to apply with the same standards as Other Aircrew, I'd go for what is recommended for Pilots (in CF) since it's the most restrictive.  RK and any corneal reshaping procedures are definitely NOT allowed and will disqualify you from application.


----------



## 26point2

No prob, Duckman!

Dimsum, I had wavefront LASIK -- pretty painless, and after 3 years my vision is still 20/20 each eye.  Getting the paperwork completed for my CF medical was painless also.


----------



## Smart Bomb

This is for any pilot who chose an engineering degree. I'm assuming pilots don't have very many opportunities to do much engineering (if at all). Have any of you found it hard to remember anything from school?


----------



## Kamikaze1655

Can your pursue any degree if you are applying for the air force? For example, I am thinking of taking criminal justice. Also, does having an engineering degree give you a leg up above the rest of the applicants?


----------



## FastAir-Bound

Kamikaze1655 said:
			
		

> Can your pursue any degree if you are applying for the air force? For example, I am thinking of taking criminal justice. Also, does having an engineering degree give you a leg up above the rest of the applicants?



Different trades have different degree requirements. Naturally the Airfield Engineers require you to have an Engineering degree of some sort for example. Since you're asking in this thread I'll go on a limb and assume you want to know about Pilots (specifically fighter pilots). When I joined a few years back (and as far as I know this is still the case) one can apply for pilot with any recognized degree. I can't say for sure but I believe in the recruitment process they do give extra points to those with engineering or "hard" sciences like mathematics or physics but it is not unheard or even uncommon for those of us with "less-technical" degrees to be accepted and do just fine. For reference, I studied Political Science and earned my wings without issue. _One big caveat to this is if Test Pilot is ever your eventual aspiration, to my knowledge that role still needs an engineering or "hard" science degree in order to apply for._

Honestly though, besides having a good grounding in basic mathematics, I don't believe what you studied at post-secondary really has a major effect of how you'll do through Pilot Training. I've flown and trained with Engineers to English majors and everything in between and I've never found that a specific background ever gave any one group an edge. Max hit a the key points very well; it's your motivation, dedication, and willingness to persevere and put that extra effort it when you're beaten down (metaphorically) or simply don't feel like you have it in you anymore that will see you through training and selection. _Good high school level mental math skills with definitely make your life easier though! _ 

The best advice I can give is pick something you actually _want_ to study, and more importantly wouldn't mind trying to make your career if you got out of the military. This way if things work out, you have an awesome job, and if not? Well, at least you're qualified to pursue something you also enjoy!

Best of luck!


----------



## powerrussia

Kamikaze1655 said:
			
		

> Can your pursue any degree if you are applying for the air force? For example, I am thinking of taking criminal justice. Also, does having an engineering degree give you a leg up above the rest of the applicants?



I have a sociology and criminal justice degree and was accepted.

Thread resurrected.  :sorry:


----------



## alx12345

I am going back to adult school to get my requirement and high school diploma for space science at RMC for pilot, i still have about 1.5-2 years to do before i complete these requirement and i will try to aim for 80%+ at least everywhere. I know school grade wont be enough, and extracurricular is a must.
I was wondering if anyone could tell if my extracurricular is at least worthy for an application.

4 years of swimming lesson
About 2 years in air cadet, at 21 years old its too late to get back  :-\
Few month of boxing
1 year of karate 
1 year soccer
Semi truck lesson, own a class 1 semi truck license.

I know that leadership/volunteering activity is important, i was thinking to do such activity for the next 2 years while i am studying full time, i live right next to bagotville air base and my recruiter said that he don't know what i could do for them, but he said that i need a high school diploma to be an officer student so no big deal, anyone got suggestion to improve my extracurricular? Either bagotville or not.

Thanks


----------



## RyanHealy29

alx12345 said:
			
		

> About 2 years in air cadet, at 21 years old its too late to get back  :-\



It's too late to go back as a cadet but not too late to go back in a volunteer capacity which, in addition to helping out a great youth program whose squadrons are often in need of helping hands, will both help fill out the volunteering section of your application and count towards leadership experience.


----------



## shane_murphy1624

I'm 17 years old and going in to my last year of high school and recently been looking in to joining the Air Force, specifically as a fighter pilot. I know it's a tough position to get and there is a lot of schooling which I'm completely okay with. But some of my concerns are that I've taken all College level courses throughout highschool mainly because I intended to go to college but on the forces website it says that a Universty degree is mandatory. But there's no way I can go to university out of highschool. Would I have to go to college first, then university? If so, what would I take in college? What do I do after gr.12? What is the life of a pilot in the military like? Thank you in advance.


----------



## The Bread Guy

shane_murphy1624:  Welcome to milnet.ca.

One of the things the military (not to mention a lot of other employers) looks for in candidates is the ability to use one's initiative.  In that respect, this site's been around a long time, and already has a ton of good stuff to help you out.  Try checking here, for example.  In fact, I'll be merging your question into that thread shortly.

Read some, search some, explore some, then ask any questions you haven't been able to find an answer to.

Good luck in your hunt, both for information and in your career.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## habsman18

Hey can anyone answer this for me? It has always been my dream to be a fighter pilot for the RCAF but my eyesight is not 20/20 vision. I noticed on the CAF website that I can still be a pilot with my vision but will they just send me to helicopter and transport planes or how much of a chance do I have at getting fighter pilot with my vision? I hope to get accepted into ROTP and RMC and take aeronautical engineering. My parents promised me that they will buy laser eye surgery for me when I graduate university but will it be to late by then? Any help will be much appreciated.


----------



## habsman18

Hey can anyone answer this for me? It has always been my dream to be a fighter pilot for the RCAF but my eyesight is not 20/20 vision. I noticed on the CAF website that I can still be a pilot with my vision but will they just send me to helicopter and transport planes and what are the odds of getting fighter pilot with my vision? I hope to get accepted into ROTP and RMC and take aeronautical engineering. My parents promised me that they will buy laser eye surgery for me when I graduate from university but will it be to late by then? Any help will be much appreciated.


----------



## George Wallace

habsman18


There is NO NEED to SPAM this site with the same identical post.  If you continue to do so, you will be BANNED.

George
army.ca STAFF


----------



## habsman18

Sorry didn't mean to I thought since this was an old post no one would see it thats why I re-posted it. Don't worry won't happen again.


----------



## Loachman

If one replies in an older thread, that thread will then reappear at the top of the list of recently-active threads.

As for your questions, read through older threads about those topics and use the Search Function. You will find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

The CF is not keen on spoon-feeding information to people. We expect them to show some basic effort and do their homework.


----------



## ChicknBone

hey
im also considering pilot as a career and ive got a couple questions for you
-are people who studied at the royal military colleges and universities much more likely to be selected as possible pilot candidates than people who completed their education as civies? Did you and most of the pilots you know study at RMC?
-What is life like when you are not on deployment? You said you only spend 3 or 4 months away from home. Do you have another job for the rest of the year?
-Finally, I know the pay rates aren't the greatest in the military. You probably dont live in a castle but can you still live a comfortable life?
An answer from anyone would be greatly appreciated 
thanks


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca.

Did you read my post immediately prior to yours? It does not appear so.

Start reading and searching. Also, please use proper capitalization.


----------



## Roger123

This question is primarily for current and former pilots of the RCAF with regards to pursuing graduate level education and their schedule. Glossing over some RCAF pilot resumes on Linked In such as Joshua Kutryk ( newly appointed astronaut with the CSA), I couldn't help but notice graduate level attainment while listing his occupation as a Fighter Pilot during the same time period. Is it reasonable to pursue higher education while also handling a full-tiime operational flying schedule, or is it likely the case that a period of time away from flying was granted while pursuing said education. Prior to initiating my application to the CAF, I researched a typical pilot workday. I came across numerous USAF pilots stating that they could reasonably expect to pull 12 to 16 hours at squadron. If this is the norm, I struggle to see how someone can handle to balance an active duty flying schedule and higher education simultaneously.


----------



## dimsum

Roger123 said:
			
		

> This question is primarily for current and former pilots of the RCAF with regards to pursuing graduate level education and their schedule. Glossing over some RCAF pilot resumes on Linked In such as Joshua Kutryk ( newly appointed astronaut with the CSA), I couldn't help but notice graduate level attainment while listing his occupation as a Fighter Pilot during the same time period. Is it reasonable to pursue higher education while also handling a full-tiime operational flying schedule, or is it likely the case that a period of time away from flying was granted while pursuing said education. Prior to initiating my application to the CAF, I researched a typical pilot workday. I came across numerous USAF pilots stating that they could reasonably expect to pull 12 to 16 hours at squadron. If this is the norm, I struggle to see how someone can handle to balance an active duty flying schedule and higher education simultaneously.



Likely those were done when he was on staff postings (on his time off), or during Aerospace Systems Program (which has a Masters option) or Joint Command and Staff Program (which is a Masters in itself).  Both ASP and JCSP are postings where you go to school.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Josh was never in a Staff job.  He did Test Pilot School which grants a Masters and JCSP which also grants one.  The other one was done on his own time.  You can do it, but there are consequences to your personal life.


----------



## Journeyman

Dimsum said:
			
		

> ....or  Joint Command and Staff Program (which is a Masters in itself).





			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> He did Test Pilot School which grants a Masters and JCSP which also grants one.



Just for clarification, JCSP does not automatically come with a recognized academic graduate degree.

From the CFC website, "It is a professional one-year Master's Degree awarded by the Royal Military College of Canada" -- 'professional' means that it is a technical degree;  in most academic institutions, it is *not* recognized as a Masters degree suitable for advancement into a PhD programme;  the CFC website used to spell that out.

Also, the site specifies that 

The degree of Master of Defence Studies will be awarded to JCSP students who successfully complete a programme of studies comprised of either of the following patterns:
_blah blah blah_ [actual course content]...

*And*:
PR500: Directed Research Project

PR500 = You also have to do some research and write a coherent, defensible thesis;  the MDS (for whatever value) doesn't come automatically for having survived a few months along Yonge and/or Church streets.


----------



## dimsum

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Just for clarification, JCSP does not automatically come with a recognized academic graduate degree.
> 
> From the CFC website, "It is a professional one-year Master's Degree awarded by the Royal Military College of Canada" -- 'professional' means that it is a technical degree;  in most academic institutions, it is *not* recognized as a Masters degree suitable for advancement into a PhD programme;  the CFC website used to spell that out.
> 
> Also, the site specifies that
> 
> The degree of Master of Defence Studies will be awarded to JCSP students who successfully complete a programme of studies comprised of either of the following patterns:
> _blah blah blah_ [actual course content]...
> 
> *And*:
> PR500: Directed Research Project
> 
> PR500 = You also have to do some research and write a coherent, defensible thesis;  the MDS (for whatever value) doesn't come automatically for having survived a few months along Yonge and/or Church streets.



Huh, didn't know that.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## Roger123

Thanks for the information guys, really appreciate it and this community. This question came to me in the shower and I dont ever think I came across such a topic. Lets suppose you complete pilot training, get winged, moved to an operational squadron and carry out the length of your contract with a clean history. You decide at the time you want to be a civilian and get a job flying the friendly skies for an airline company. A year passes and your perspective changes and you miss the life you had for the last decade. Is the sign up process the same? ( Online application,CFAT, interview, medical, aircrew selection, competition list, selection). And if you do get in again, are you fast tracked to your former airframe and duties or do you get the opportunity to switch routes ( Rotorwing to Multi, Multi to Fast Jet, vice versa, etc)


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## mariomike

Roger123 said:
			
		

> A year passes and your perspective changes and you miss the life you had for the last decade. Is the sign up process the same? ( Online application,CFAT, interview, medical, aircrew selection, competition list, selection).



Getting back in is discussed here,

Getting Back In/Re-enrolling Mega Thread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/294.75
37 pages.

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.



			
				Roger123 said:
			
		

> And if you do get in again, are you fast tracked to your former airframe and duties or do you get the opportunity to switch routes ( Rotorwing to Multi, Multi to Fast Jet, vice versa, etc)



Not the same as getting back in as an experienced Pilot, but, you may find this of interest anyway, as it comes from a Pilot,



			
				MAJONES said:
			
		

> If you want wings, (like I've got), you'd better adjust that attitude.  The answer, is, and always has been, you'll go where the service can use you based on your abilities and the needs of the service.  That situation is so fluid that there is no point speculating on it until you're just about done BFT.


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## Loachman

Lots of guys have come back over many years. Repetition of CFAT and ACS are not required. Many of the returnees have been posted into staff positions, however, before eventually getting back into cockpits.


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## Roger123

Interesting.I would expect that the contract length for returning aircrew would be less than for ROTP, DEO and CEOTP candidates without prior military flying experience in such cases.


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## Rmcmomf18

My son did extremely well in air crew selection and is currently at rmc. He wants to switch out of engineering. How many fighter pilots in the RCAF are not engineers? And does not being an engineer affect the selection process for the f18’s? Will he be at a disadvantage in his career as a flighter pilot regarding promotions, etc. ?


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## Loachman

This he can and should investigate himself.

He is an adult and striving to become an Officer. He needs to find his own way.

You need to let him do that, even if it is difficult for you.


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## Quirky

There are fighter pilots with only a basket weaving degree from Seneca, you don’t need a real degree.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Ben Affleck couldn't even read and he was a fighter pilot  ;D

#PearlHarbor


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## Lumber

Unless you are an Engineering Officer of some sort, they literally don't give a shit what degree you have.

In fact, I'm not even sure why you need an engineering degree to be an engineering officer, everything they need to be able to do is either taught to them on course, in which case anyone with a head in their shoulders, engineering or degree or not, should be able to do it, or it's admin/management type work, which no one is taught at all.


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## Good2Golf

Rmcmomf18 said:
			
		

> My son did extremely well in air crew selection and is currently at rmc. He wants to switch out of engineering. How many fighter pilots in the RCAF are not engineers? And does not being an engineer affect the selection process for the f18’s? Will he be at a disadvantage in his career as a flighter pilot regarding promotions, etc. ?



The RCAF will select whomever they need into whichever branch of the RCAF they feel appropriate (fighter, transport, maritime patrol, trainer, search and rescue planes and helicopters, ship-based helicopters, ‘army’ helicopters and even special operations pilots).  Pilots do not have any particularly exceptional educational requirements...in fact, ironically, amongst the least demanding education requirements for officers....

Skills and aptitude, that’s a different story. I know a guy with an arts degree in history and he could put the skid of a black helicopter within half a meter of a hover spot above the deck of pitching ship in 60 km/h winds...

Your son should make his choice as to what he wants to do, but most importantly to learn to do that well...to do anything he does well!  There is a classification called Aeronautical Engineer (AERE).  The officers supervise technicians who fix the aircraft that pilots break. If you really want your son to be an engineer, perhaps suggest he might be fixing things that pilots break than being a pilot himself.

:2c:

Regards,
G2G

p.s. Your son really doesn’t have much say as to what aircraft he would eventually fly, assuming he passes all the way through pilot
training.


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## Rmcmomf18

Thank you G2G. I don’t know any fighter pilots. Appreciate your comments, it helps 😊


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## Good2Golf

Rmcmomf18 said:
			
		

> Thank you G2G. I don’t know any fighter pilots. Appreciate your comments, it helps 😊



You’re very welcome, Rmcmomf18.

I know a few...they’re not bad when you really get to know them. ;D

Seriously though, the ranks of CAF officership is replete with many who initially desired to be pilots, or more specifically (depending on a number of factors at the time, C-130 Hercules, or CP-140 Aurora pilots, etc.) a particular type of aircraft. 

Good to have a goal to aim for, but it should be your son’s own goal, and your goal, understandably, is to support him as best as possible to help him achieve that goal. The general trend of such goals tends to change over time.  In the 80’s, the trend was that most seemed to want to be fighter pilots, myself included.  I watch ‘_Top Gun_ more than a few time when it came out in 1986.  The CF-18 Hornet was just a few years old - and considered a leading edge, modern aircraft.  I ranked very highly in my training, but was chosen by others for a pilot stream over which I had no choice.  In the end, I had a rewarding flying career of more than a quarter century, and truth be told, wouldn’t change a thing, even if given the choice for a ‘re-do’, ‘coolness’ of the CF-18 at the time notwithstanding. 

These days...I don’t know. The CF-18 isn’t what it used to be.  It may be still cool, but it’s more than a third of a century old.  By the time it finished serving the RCAF, it will be close to half a century old.  To out that in perspective, if the RCAF did that with a World War II era Spitfire, it would still be flying after the Berlin Wall was taken down in 1989...seven years after the CF-18 itself entered into service! 

Anyway, I hope your son is successful
First during his studies at RMC, and then through pilot training. I hope he gets support from you and others, and that he himself finds the drive and motivation to succeed, including in whatever academic program he pursues. 

Regards,
G2G


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## Rmcmomf18

Thanks again G2G. Your absolutely right. I just want my son to make an informed decision. He’s a smart cookie, I know he will. I just have to wrap my head around all this. 🤕Thanks again. Take care


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## gamerxy

Thanks 3<


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## Loachman

Son of Rmcmomf18, perchance? Welcome to the Site.


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## Eye In The Sky

I'm not a pilot, but I work for and with them regularly on the CP-140 Aurora long patrol aircraft.  I'll just add a few things, from the perspective of a non-fighter type.

Fighters are fast, and might make other fleets seem less...attractive.  But our pilots are challenged in many ways that fighters pilots may not be.  Aurora pilots come off their course as First Officers (FOs) and immediately start working towards their Long Range Patrol Captain upgrade.  They start to learn, understand and master the flying aspect and the tactical aspects of the entire set of mission profiles LRP crews do.  Anti-submarine, Anti surface warfare, Search and Rescue, overland missions, support to other departments and agencies, counter-drug operations are the ones that immediately come to mind.  Once they are LRP Captains, they usually start working towards the LRP Crew Commander qualification;  they are then responsible for the entire LRP crew and all of the leadership, administration and training of the entire crew (assisted by a few other key people on the crew).  

Once they are LRP Captains, they are involved in the training of newly arrived FOs; once they are LRP CC, they are involved with the training of FOs and LRP Captains.  Some of them move into the Standards and Training Office and oversee the entire group of Pilots on Squadron.  From there they can move onto being Aircrew Flight Commanders (Major rank), Standards and Training Flight Commanders, etc and other positions such as Squadron Deputy Commanding Officers.  As Senior Captains and Majors they can also be selected as Air Task Force Commanders (in the Aurora fleet, at least).

Multi-engine can be 'lower and slower' flying, but flying 100' off the ocean at 220kts tracking a submerged contact (on exercise, or 'non exercise') is also pretty thrilling.  As our pilots progress, they are presented more and more responsibility and leadership function on the crew and Squadron.  I'll never be one myself, but I can imagine it must be pretty satisfying to land a CP-140 Aurora after a 12+ hour mission that was executed with great results as not only a pilot but as the crew commander.  

They also get to see a lot of places during their flying tours;  and - they always get their own hotel room at my Squadron (this becomes important as your time on Squadron ticks by!).

Fighters are cool and do cool things, for sure, but the other fleets are also demanding, rewarding and satisfying as well.  I've done some cool missions with LRP pilots as well.  I think you could talk to aircrew from the other fleets and get similar info to mine above.  If you get selected, make it thru trg and don't get fighters, don't for a second doubt that you won't be challenged and rewarded as well.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4175083/canada-north-korea-surveillance-mission/

Cheers and good luck!


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## Loachman

Forget _that_ crap.

Tac Hel is the _only_ worthwhile pursuit.

EITS' idea of "low" is almost nosebleed altitude. Why would _anybody_ want to fly that _high_?

Hotels? Pfffffftttttttt!!!

Modular tentage is w - a - y more luxury than anybody needs.


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## Eye In The Sky

What's that saying I heard...."_there's no hell like TacHel_"  ;D


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## AKa

I remember a time back in charm school (aka military college) when I asked my classmate about his Plan B if he failed pilot training.  He looked at me as if I had grown another head and told me "I don't need a Plan B".

He has had a lovely 27 year career as a MARS officer.


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## pierrezzz7

I'm 18 I can't seem to find direct information on what do I need to become a fighter pilot 
I need to know what education I need because I know a secondary 5 is not enough to become a Pilot ( I'm from Qc)
I'm simply looking for clear steps, instructions and requirements on how i can reach the pilot job


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## mariomike

pierrezzz7 said:
			
		

> I need to know what education I need because I know a secondary 5 is not enough to become a Pilot ( I'm from Qc)
> I'm simply looking for clear steps, instructions and requirements on how i can reach the pilot job



See also,

The "So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12744/post-1548941.html#msg1548941
56 pages.


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