# Ledearship and Dogma



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <davidwillard@home.com>* on *Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:24:53 -0400*
    There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked for
examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn an
unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior levels. I
emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers. It
just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the wrong
shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed to
go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here as
inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
our military a more effective fighting force.
    We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits in
discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
"Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The Canadian
Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing appointees
who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member of
this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military background
or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the job
regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy with
the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of Canadians
before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that is
intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and not
just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
Dave Willard
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Sean Stepan" <sean1994@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:51:39 PDT*
how bout a coup? lets overthrow this som‘ bitch! :
>From: "dave" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Ledearship and Dogma
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:24:53 -0400
>
>     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
>within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked for
>examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
>list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
>same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn 
>an
>unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior levels. 
>I
>emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers. 
>It
>just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the 
>wrong
>shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed to
>go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here as
>inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
>our military a more effective fighting force.
>
>     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits in
>discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
>governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
>"Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The Canadian
>Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing 
>appointees
>who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member of
>this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military background
>or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
>caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
>don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
>group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
>reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
>enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the 
>job
>regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy with
>the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
>incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
>somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of Canadians
>before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that 
>is
>intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and not
>just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
>party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
>time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
>another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
>
>Dave Willard
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:31:43 EDT*
Re: Coup thought.  Grow up
>From: "Sean Stepan" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Ledearship and Dogma
>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:51:39 PDT
>
>how bout a coup? lets overthrow this som‘ bitch! :
>
>>From: "dave" 
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: 
>>Subject: Ledearship and Dogma
>>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:24:53 -0400
>>
>>     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
>>within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked for
>>examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
>>list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
>>same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn
>>an
>>unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior levels.
>>I
>>emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers.
>>It
>>just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the
>>wrong
>>shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed 
>>to
>>go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here as
>>inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
>>our military a more effective fighting force.
>>
>>     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits in
>>discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
>>governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
>>"Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The 
>>Canadian
>>Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing
>>appointees
>>who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member of
>>this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military background
>>or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
>>caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
>>don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
>>group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
>>reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
>>enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the
>>job
>>regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy 
>>with
>>the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
>>incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
>>somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of 
>>Canadians
>>before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that
>>is
>>intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and not
>>just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
>>party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
>>time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
>>another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
>>
>>Dave Willard
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Sean Stepan" <sean1994@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:57:20 PDT*
it was a joke, guy. thats some sense of humour youve got.
>From: "Chrid Loveridge" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Ledearship and Dogma
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:31:43 EDT
>
>Re: Coup thought.  Grow up
>
>>From: "Sean Stepan" 
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>Subject: Re: Ledearship and Dogma
>>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:51:39 PDT
>>
>>how bout a coup? lets overthrow this som‘ bitch! :
>>
>>>From: "dave" 
>>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>>To: 
>>>Subject: Ledearship and Dogma
>>>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:24:53 -0400
>>>
>>>     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
>>>within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked 
>>>for
>>>examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
>>>list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
>>>same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn
>>>an
>>>unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior 
>>>levels.
>>>I
>>>emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers.
>>>It
>>>just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the
>>>wrong
>>>shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed
>>>to
>>>go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here 
>>>as
>>>inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
>>>our military a more effective fighting force.
>>>
>>>     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits 
>>>in
>>>discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
>>>governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
>>>"Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The
>>>Canadian
>>>Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing
>>>appointees
>>>who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member 
>>>of
>>>this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military 
>>>background
>>>or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
>>>caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
>>>don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
>>>group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
>>>reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
>>>enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the
>>>job
>>>regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy
>>>with
>>>the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
>>>incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
>>>somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of
>>>Canadians
>>>before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that
>>>is
>>>intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and 
>>>not
>>>just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
>>>party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
>>>time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
>>>another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
>>>
>>>Dave Willard
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>>message body.
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:43:52 -0600*
Dave,
I think you are address your comment about "one member of the list
disputing the leadership void in the CF" is directed at me I‘m a big
boy and can take criticism don‘t try to hide it........  
I have never denied that there were troubles in the CF through the 90s,
however, I think a general "leadership vacuum" is abit of misnomer.  The
Army had never been called upon to do very much in the 70s and 80s as
compared to the 90s and as a result we were unprepared and ill
organized to deal with everything that was required of us.  There were
many successes throughout the 90s as well Red River Flood, Eastern Ice
Storm, many soldiers receiving awards for bravery, a deployment rate
higher then any time since Korea, etc.  Its easier to sell newspapers
sensationalizing the bad then it is sensationalizing the good.  Anyone
really ever here of the Canadians actions at the Medak Pocket as much
as I dislike Scott Taylor, at least he brought these incidents out in
the open? 
We speak very similarily when saying there are mostly excellent officers
and NCOs out there.  Are there problems with some of the senior
leadership, sure, I‘ll agree with that, although, we really don‘t have
the exact story of what occured with all the incidents.  Please note
that DND consists of 60000 Regular, 30000 Reservists, 20000 Civilians
and untold number 100000? of cadets...are there going to be scandals? 
Of course there are, however, the onus is on DND to handle them
properly.
Anyway, without getting into an argument, for the most part I agree with
the general nature of your comments. In a democracy, it is a given the
military has to be subordinate to the elected civilian authority. 
However, the military also needs a champion among Canadians to get the
common citizen to recognize the importance of proper support to the
military.  The Governor General as our Commander in Chief is a lame
duck.  The MND does not have the ability of independent action he has
to maintain the party line.  The DM is simply a bureaucrat.  Finally,
and I‘m being incredibly cruel, but, the CDS is a soldier who follows
the political direction given to him by the Federal Government, if he
doesn‘t like it, the government will find someone who will.  Take
Admiral Anderson, who was CDS prior to General Boyle.  He stated that if
the government cancelled the maritime helicopters, he would resign, and
he did although he went overseas to NATO for awhile.  Who‘s looking
out for the military and who‘s looking out for it‘s members?  DND
leadership can only do so much.  Whats the answer?
A couple of comments:  Since unification, the military has become more
and more politicized through the incorporation of a joint civil-military
NDHQ.  Secondly, I think we lost touch with our largest group of
cheerleaders that could have helped us, that being, the veterans of WWII
and Korea, and I‘m not sure why this happened.  In the US, former
members of the military are a very strong political lobby group.  
I don‘t know if I support your comments about the CHRC, etc.  Canadians
have accepted that all citizens have certain rights.  Is this a bad
thing?  No it isn‘t.  The days of smacking a soldier up side the head
because you felt he did something stupid are over.  The days of taking a
soldier around to the back of the barracks and "talking" to him are
over.  I fully support this.  I don‘t know anyone who doesn‘t support
it.  Why would you support the abuse of someone under you command?  Why
does someone have to be in the military to fully understand Human Rights
and how it should pertain to the military.  The military has been
granted certain restrictions on how it treats its members by agreeing
to observe the military code of service discipline and its members give
up those rights right to assembly,etc.       
Finally, although I support the Canadian Alliance, I don‘t forsee them
being any better then any of the governments of the past.  I also agree
on your comments about "left wing nuts" having too much power!
Anyone else?
dave wrote:
> 
>     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
> within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked for
> examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
> list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
> same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn an
> unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior levels. I
> emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers. It
> just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the wrong
> shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed to
> go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here as
> inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
> our military a more effective fighting force.
> 
>     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits in
> discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
> governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
> "Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The Canadian
> Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing appointees
> who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member of
> this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military background
> or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
> caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
> don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
> group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
> reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
> enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the job
> regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy with
> the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
> incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
> somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of Canadians
> before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that is
> intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and not
> just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
> party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
> time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
> another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
> 
> Dave Willard
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:47:07 PDT*
Hear Hear!!!  Gunner you‘ve hit the nail on the head.  Esprit de Corps 
Magazine has been trying to assume the role of "Champion" for the troops.  
But personally, I am unsure of how much they are really Champions or just 
**** disturbers trying to sell magazines.  They are an excellant magazine, 
but they are not playing on the team.  They are on the sidelines.
What we DO NEED is a CDS who will put himself on the line for his troops.  
And as I will be retiring in a year or so, I also think that we could use 
some better people as Command CWO‘s!  Things are changing, I pray that they 
will continue to change for the better.
At the unit level I know that things have improved.  We seem to be getting 
better quality Officers and senior NCO‘s.  I mean if a soldier can‘t go to 
his WO or to his OC, who can he go to.
What I am seeing now and for the last 4 or 5 years consistantly is senior 
NCO‘s and Officers who are truly concerned about their troops.  So much so 
that they take the time to find out about what is happening in their trrops 
lives, and even anticipate problems before the troops even ask for help.  
This is as it should be.  We have this down in Line Units, but it still 
needs to be reinforced in support units.
>Dave,
>
>I think you are address your comment about "one member of the list
>disputing the leadership void in the CF" is directed at me I‘m a big
>boy and can take criticism don‘t try to hide it........
>
>I have never denied that there were troubles in the CF through the 90s,
>however, I think a general "leadership vacuum" is abit of misnomer.  The
>Army had never been called upon to do very much in the 70s and 80s as
>compared to the 90s and as a result we were unprepared and ill
>organized to deal with everything that was required of us.  There were
>many successes throughout the 90s as well Red River Flood, Eastern Ice
>Storm, many soldiers receiving awards for bravery, a deployment rate
>higher then any time since Korea, etc.  Its easier to sell newspapers
>sensationalizing the bad then it is sensationalizing the good.  Anyone
>really ever here of the Canadians actions at the Medak Pocket as much
>as I dislike Scott Taylor, at least he brought these incidents out in
>the open?
>
>We speak very similarily when saying there are mostly excellent officers
>and NCOs out there.  Are there problems with some of the senior
>leadership, sure, I‘ll agree with that, although, we really don‘t have
>the exact story of what occured with all the incidents.  Please note
>that DND consists of 60000 Regular, 30000 Reservists, 20000 Civilians
>and untold number 100000? of cadets...are there going to be scandals?
>Of course there are, however, the onus is on DND to handle them
>properly.
>
>Anyway, without getting into an argument, for the most part I agree with
>the general nature of your comments. In a democracy, it is a given the
>military has to be subordinate to the elected civilian authority.
>However, the military also needs a champion among Canadians to get the
>common citizen to recognize the importance of proper support to the
>military.  The Governor General as our Commander in Chief is a lame
>duck.  The MND does not have the ability of independent action he has
>to maintain the party line.  The DM is simply a bureaucrat.  Finally,
>and I‘m being incredibly cruel, but, the CDS is a soldier who follows
>the political direction given to him by the Federal Government, if he
>doesn‘t like it, the government will find someone who will.  Take
>Admiral Anderson, who was CDS prior to General Boyle.  He stated that if
>the government cancelled the maritime helicopters, he would resign, and
>he did although he went overseas to NATO for awhile.  Who‘s looking
>out for the military and who‘s looking out for it‘s members?  DND
>leadership can only do so much.  Whats the answer?
>
>A couple of comments:  Since unification, the military has become more
>and more politicized through the incorporation of a joint civil-military
>NDHQ.  Secondly, I think we lost touch with our largest group of
>cheerleaders that could have helped us, that being, the veterans of WWII
>and Korea, and I‘m not sure why this happened.  In the US, former
>members of the military are a very strong political lobby group.
>
>I don‘t know if I support your comments about the CHRC, etc.  Canadians
>have accepted that all citizens have certain rights.  Is this a bad
>thing?  No it isn‘t.  The days of smacking a soldier up side the head
>because you felt he did something stupid are over.  The days of taking a
>soldier around to the back of the barracks and "talking" to him are
>over.  I fully support this.  I don‘t know anyone who doesn‘t support
>it.  Why would you support the abuse of someone under you command?  Why
>does someone have to be in the military to fully understand Human Rights
>and how it should pertain to the military.  The military has been
>granted certain restrictions on how it treats its members by agreeing
>to observe the military code of service discipline and its members give
>up those rights right to assembly,etc.
>
>Finally, although I support the Canadian Alliance, I don‘t forsee them
>being any better then any of the governments of the past.  I also agree
>on your comments about "left wing nuts" having too much power!
>
>Anyone else?
>
>dave wrote:
> >
> >     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
> > within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked 
>for
> > examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
> > list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with 
>the
> > same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have 
>worn an
> > unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior 
>levels. I
> > emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior 
>officers. It
> > just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the 
>wrong
> > shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed 
>to
> > go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here 
>as
> > inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will 
>make
> > our military a more effective fighting force.
> >
> >     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits 
>in
> > discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
> > governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
> > "Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The 
>Canadian
> > Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing 
>appointees
> > who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member 
>of
> > this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military 
>background
> > or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
> > caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
> > don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
> > group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
> > reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to 
>lower
> > enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the 
>job
> > regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy 
>with
> > the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
> > incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
> > somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of 
>Canadians
> > before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government 
>that is
> > intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and 
>not
> > just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
> > party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
> > time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
> > another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
> >
> > Dave Willard
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:49:45 -0500*
Gunner,
I think you‘re right on the money here. The government can change, but the lobby
groups and industry that play large unseen roles in our nations policy making will
not. How many gov‘ts have come and gone promising to make things better, but just
making cosmetic changes. Our Senate, what exactly is their role anyway?  Another
thing, wouldn‘t it just make sense for the ministers appointed in our elected
gov‘ts to have some sort of background to back up the appointment. When was the
last time we had a MND or Deputy MND with military service in their background?
Walking around the Mattawa Plain in combats with the fold creases still showing
and a helmet on backwards for the odd photo shoot does not qualify anyone to make
decisions affecting our Armed Forces.
I hope that makes sense, I get a little heated whenever I get into this topic.
Anyone else going to wade in on this one?
Carl
Gunner wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I think you are address your comment about "one member of the list
> disputing the leadership void in the CF" is directed at me I‘m a big
> boy and can take criticism don‘t try to hide it........
>
> I have never denied that there were troubles in the CF through the 90s,
> however, I think a general "leadership vacuum" is abit of misnomer.  The
> Army had never been called upon to do very much in the 70s and 80s as
> compared to the 90s and as a result we were unprepared and ill
> organized to deal with everything that was required of us.  There were
> many successes throughout the 90s as well Red River Flood, Eastern Ice
> Storm, many soldiers receiving awards for bravery, a deployment rate
> higher then any time since Korea, etc.  Its easier to sell newspapers
> sensationalizing the bad then it is sensationalizing the good.  Anyone
> really ever here of the Canadians actions at the Medak Pocket as much
> as I dislike Scott Taylor, at least he brought these incidents out in
> the open?
>
> We speak very similarily when saying there are mostly excellent officers
> and NCOs out there.  Are there problems with some of the senior
> leadership, sure, I‘ll agree with that, although, we really don‘t have
> the exact story of what occured with all the incidents.  Please note
> that DND consists of 60000 Regular, 30000 Reservists, 20000 Civilians
> and untold number 100000? of cadets...are there going to be scandals?
> Of course there are, however, the onus is on DND to handle them
> properly.
>
> Anyway, without getting into an argument, for the most part I agree with
> the general nature of your comments. In a democracy, it is a given the
> military has to be subordinate to the elected civilian authority.
> However, the military also needs a champion among Canadians to get the
> common citizen to recognize the importance of proper support to the
> military.  The Governor General as our Commander in Chief is a lame
> duck.  The MND does not have the ability of independent action he has
> to maintain the party line.  The DM is simply a bureaucrat.  Finally,
> and I‘m being incredibly cruel, but, the CDS is a soldier who follows
> the political direction given to him by the Federal Government, if he
> doesn‘t like it, the government will find someone who will.  Take
> Admiral Anderson, who was CDS prior to General Boyle.  He stated that if
> the government cancelled the maritime helicopters, he would resign, and
> he did although he went overseas to NATO for awhile.  Who‘s looking
> out for the military and who‘s looking out for it‘s members?  DND
> leadership can only do so much.  Whats the answer?
>
> A couple of comments:  Since unification, the military has become more
> and more politicized through the incorporation of a joint civil-military
> NDHQ.  Secondly, I think we lost touch with our largest group of
> cheerleaders that could have helped us, that being, the veterans of WWII
> and Korea, and I‘m not sure why this happened.  In the US, former
> members of the military are a very strong political lobby group.
>
> I don‘t know if I support your comments about the CHRC, etc.  Canadians
> have accepted that all citizens have certain rights.  Is this a bad
> thing?  No it isn‘t.  The days of smacking a soldier up side the head
> because you felt he did something stupid are over.  The days of taking a
> soldier around to the back of the barracks and "talking" to him are
> over.  I fully support this.  I don‘t know anyone who doesn‘t support
> it.  Why would you support the abuse of someone under you command?  Why
> does someone have to be in the military to fully understand Human Rights
> and how it should pertain to the military.  The military has been
> granted certain restrictions on how it treats its members by agreeing
> to observe the military code of service discipline and its members give
> up those rights right to assembly,etc.
>
> Finally, although I support the Canadian Alliance, I don‘t forsee them
> being any better then any of the governments of the past.  I also agree
> on your comments about "left wing nuts" having too much power!
>
> Anyone else?
>
> dave wrote:
> >
> >     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
> > within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked for
> > examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
> > list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
> > same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn an
> > unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior levels. I
> > emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers. It
> > just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the wrong
> > shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed to
> > go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here as
> > inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
> > our military a more effective fighting force.
> >
> >     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits in
> > discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
> > governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
> > "Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The Canadian
> > Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing appointees
> > who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member of
> > this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military background
> > or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
> > caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
> > don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
> > group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
> > reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
> > enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the job
> > regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy with
> > the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
> > incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
> > somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of Canadians
> > before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that is
> > intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and not
> > just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
> > party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
> > time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
> > another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
> >
> > Dave Willard
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:22:38 -0700*
on 18/4/00 08:49,  Carl DINSDALE at joscol@mb.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Anyone else going to wade in on this one?
> 
> Carl
Not yet.....*grin*
arte et marte
andy sends:
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:44:31 -0500*
Good call John. The CDS and Command Chiefs must remember the lessons they
learned early in their careers as leaders. The troops must be fed, reloaded and
rested before they can do those things themselves. Good point about the NCOs and
Officers making efforts to knowing their troops better also. In ‘92 I had a CSM
by the name of Randy Palmer and one of the first things he did on assuming the
position was order every NCM in the Coy to draft an autobiography. There was a
lot of grumbling, especially after he returned them with grammar corrections,
but later it proved it‘s worth when he would be walking through the shacks and
would know your name, ask about your significant others by name or give you ****
about something and compare it to something in that autobiography. Eventually
the troops, even the ones smart like APCs, realized the value of those papers
and the effort the new CSM was putting into getting to know the troops and
caring about their problems. It was a leadership lesson that I‘ll never forget.
Pro Patria
Carl
John Hill wrote:
> Hear Hear!!!  Gunner you‘ve hit the nail on the head.  Esprit de Corps
> Magazine has been trying to assume the role of "Champion" for the troops.
> But personally, I am unsure of how much they are really Champions or just
> **** disturbers trying to sell magazines.  They are an excellant magazine,
> but they are not playing on the team.  They are on the sidelines.
>
> What we DO NEED is a CDS who will put himself on the line for his troops.
> And as I will be retiring in a year or so, I also think that we could use
> some better people as Command CWO‘s!  Things are changing, I pray that they
> will continue to change for the better.
>
> At the unit level I know that things have improved.  We seem to be getting
> better quality Officers and senior NCO‘s.  I mean if a soldier can‘t go to
> his WO or to his OC, who can he go to.
>
> What I am seeing now and for the last 4 or 5 years consistantly is senior
> NCO‘s and Officers who are truly concerned about their troops.  So much so
> that they take the time to find out about what is happening in their trrops
> lives, and even anticipate problems before the troops even ask for help.
> This is as it should be.  We have this down in Line Units, but it still
> needs to be reinforced in support units.
>
> >Dave,
> >
> >I think you are address your comment about "one member of the list
> >disputing the leadership void in the CF" is directed at me I‘m a big
> >boy and can take criticism don‘t try to hide it........
> >
> >I have never denied that there were troubles in the CF through the 90s,
> >however, I think a general "leadership vacuum" is abit of misnomer.  The
> >Army had never been called upon to do very much in the 70s and 80s as
> >compared to the 90s and as a result we were unprepared and ill
> >organized to deal with everything that was required of us.  There were
> >many successes throughout the 90s as well Red River Flood, Eastern Ice
> >Storm, many soldiers receiving awards for bravery, a deployment rate
> >higher then any time since Korea, etc.  Its easier to sell newspapers
> >sensationalizing the bad then it is sensationalizing the good.  Anyone
> >really ever here of the Canadians actions at the Medak Pocket as much
> >as I dislike Scott Taylor, at least he brought these incidents out in
> >the open?
> >
> >We speak very similarily when saying there are mostly excellent officers
> >and NCOs out there.  Are there problems with some of the senior
> >leadership, sure, I‘ll agree with that, although, we really don‘t have
> >the exact story of what occured with all the incidents.  Please note
> >that DND consists of 60000 Regular, 30000 Reservists, 20000 Civilians
> >and untold number 100000? of cadets...are there going to be scandals?
> >Of course there are, however, the onus is on DND to handle them
> >properly.
> >
> >Anyway, without getting into an argument, for the most part I agree with
> >the general nature of your comments. In a democracy, it is a given the
> >military has to be subordinate to the elected civilian authority.
> >However, the military also needs a champion among Canadians to get the
> >common citizen to recognize the importance of proper support to the
> >military.  The Governor General as our Commander in Chief is a lame
> >duck.  The MND does not have the ability of independent action he has
> >to maintain the party line.  The DM is simply a bureaucrat.  Finally,
> >and I‘m being incredibly cruel, but, the CDS is a soldier who follows
> >the political direction given to him by the Federal Government, if he
> >doesn‘t like it, the government will find someone who will.  Take
> >Admiral Anderson, who was CDS prior to General Boyle.  He stated that if
> >the government cancelled the maritime helicopters, he would resign, and
> >he did although he went overseas to NATO for awhile.  Who‘s looking
> >out for the military and who‘s looking out for it‘s members?  DND
> >leadership can only do so much.  Whats the answer?
> >
> >A couple of comments:  Since unification, the military has become more
> >and more politicized through the incorporation of a joint civil-military
> >NDHQ.  Secondly, I think we lost touch with our largest group of
> >cheerleaders that could have helped us, that being, the veterans of WWII
> >and Korea, and I‘m not sure why this happened.  In the US, former
> >members of the military are a very strong political lobby group.
> >
> >I don‘t know if I support your comments about the CHRC, etc.  Canadians
> >have accepted that all citizens have certain rights.  Is this a bad
> >thing?  No it isn‘t.  The days of smacking a soldier up side the head
> >because you felt he did something stupid are over.  The days of taking a
> >soldier around to the back of the barracks and "talking" to him are
> >over.  I fully support this.  I don‘t know anyone who doesn‘t support
> >it.  Why would you support the abuse of someone under you command?  Why
> >does someone have to be in the military to fully understand Human Rights
> >and how it should pertain to the military.  The military has been
> >granted certain restrictions on how it treats its members by agreeing
> >to observe the military code of service discipline and its members give
> >up those rights right to assembly,etc.
> >
> >Finally, although I support the Canadian Alliance, I don‘t forsee them
> >being any better then any of the governments of the past.  I also agree
> >on your comments about "left wing nuts" having too much power!
> >
> >Anyone else?
> >
> >dave wrote:
> > >
> > >     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
> > > within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked
> >for
> > > examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
> > > list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with
> >the
> > > same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have
> >worn an
> > > unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior
> >levels. I
> > > emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior
> >officers. It
> > > just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the
> >wrong
> > > shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed
> >to
> > > go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here
> >as
> > > inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will
> >make
> > > our military a more effective fighting force.
> > >
> > >     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits
> >in
> > > discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
> > > governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
> > > "Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The
> >Canadian
> > > Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing
> >appointees
> > > who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member
> >of
> > > this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military
> >background
> > > or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
> > > caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
> > > don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
> > > group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
> > > reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to
> >lower
> > > enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the
> >job
> > > regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy
> >with
> > > the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
> > > incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
> > > somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of
> >Canadians
> > > before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government
> >that is
> > > intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and
> >not
> > > just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
> > > party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
> > > time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
> > > another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Dave Willard
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:38:28 -0700*
Well, I‘ll wade in where angels fear to tread:
I think a happy medium between complete ignorance coming into the job of
MND and "total knowledge" is the best that can be expected.
I‘m reminded of that classic line from HMS Pinafore "So take my advice
and never go to sea, you will be the leader of the Queen‘s Navy." Hope
I‘m quoting it correctly.I‘m also thinking of several classic plots
from the Brit television series "Yes Minister." Afraid that‘s more to
the truth than anything else.
In Canada we‘ve had a wide range of those with somewhat great knowledge
of the armed forces and NOT been served very well. I cited Hellyer a
couple of weeks ago, now consider Barney Danson QOR/WW2, failed to
retract Hellyer‘s mistakes, MGen Pearkes VC well that would be the
subject of another thread and if you want to go back far enough: Sam
Hughes. And don‘t forget Col. Ralston early WW2, who helped pull the
country apart over the conscription issue subject for another thread.
So, just what level of prior expertise is necessary? LBdr Hellyer
thought he understood everything going into the job. Take the problems
that the PM from a newly elected government has to face. An eclectic
list of 160-200 members and the PM has first to construct a cabinet that
best provides a balance of regions, demographics, psychographics we‘ve
even had an overt homosexual MND from Cape Breton a couple of decades
ago. Then to find those with any smarts. Then to ignore old debts owed
to the Party. Very tough job so far. Then to match the new cabinet with
their old vested interests I wish not.
Rather than knowledge I would prefer them to have backbone. A
willingness to learn what is needed to know and an ability to persuade
others that the needs of their "other constituency" other than their
own riding are, if fair needs, heard in cabinet. I an not too keen on
having a fisherman as Minister of Fisheries and Oceans nor a farmer as
Minister of Agriculture as they tend to be too short sighted and they
need to always consider the next election in their home constituency.
And their "other constituency‘s" needs are met at the expense of my
wallet. Anne McLellan won in Edmonton by only 477 votes last time and
you can be sure she is paying attention to every possible service vote,
including Reservists in Club Ed, not that she has any affinity for the
CF, au contraire.
When it comes to politicians, as I said a few weeks ago and others have
also agreed in their own context, the military ‘community‘ needs to
focus on our nation‘s foreign affairs policy. That‘s what should and
does dictate our Defence policy.
Pin our hopes on the Cdn Alliance? Groan. They can‘t be any different,
can‘t be any better. Just isn‘t possible. Democracy is just one form of
Mob Rule. Not that I would have it any other way.
"Ian Edwards"
    - 30 -
Carl DINSDALE wrote:
> 
> Gunner,
> 
> I think you‘re right on the money here. The government can change, but the lobby
> groups and industry that play large unseen roles in our nations policy making will
> not. How many gov‘ts have come and gone promising to make things better, but just
> making cosmetic changes. Our Senate, what exactly is their role anyway?  Another
> thing, wouldn‘t it just make sense for the ministers appointed in our elected
> gov‘ts to have some sort of background to back up the appointment. When was the
> last time we had a MND or Deputy MND with military service in their background?
> Walking around the Mattawa Plain in combats with the fold creases still showing
> and a helmet on backwards for the odd photo shoot does not qualify anyone to make
> decisions affecting our Armed Forces.
> 
> I hope that makes sense, I get a little heated whenever I get into this topic.
> 
> Anyone else going to wade in on this one?
> 
> Carl
> 
> Gunner wrote:
> 
> > Dave,
> >
> > I think you are address your comment about "one member of the list
> > disputing the leadership void in the CF" is directed at me I‘m a big
> > boy and can take criticism don‘t try to hide it........
> >
> > I have never denied that there were troubles in the CF through the 90s,
> > however, I think a general "leadership vacuum" is abit of misnomer.  The
> > Army had never been called upon to do very much in the 70s and 80s as
> > compared to the 90s and as a result we were unprepared and ill
> > organized to deal with everything that was required of us.  There were
> > many successes throughout the 90s as well Red River Flood, Eastern Ice
> > Storm, many soldiers receiving awards for bravery, a deployment rate
> > higher then any time since Korea, etc.  Its easier to sell newspapers
> > sensationalizing the bad then it is sensationalizing the good.  Anyone
> > really ever here of the Canadians actions at the Medak Pocket as much
> > as I dislike Scott Taylor, at least he brought these incidents out in
> > the open?
> >
> > We speak very similarily when saying there are mostly excellent officers
> > and NCOs out there.  Are there problems with some of the senior
> > leadership, sure, I‘ll agree with that, although, we really don‘t have
> > the exact story of what occured with all the incidents.  Please note
> > that DND consists of 60000 Regular, 30000 Reservists, 20000 Civilians
> > and untold number 100000? of cadets...are there going to be scandals?
> > Of course there are, however, the onus is on DND to handle them
> > properly.
> >
> > Anyway, without getting into an argument, for the most part I agree with
> > the general nature of your comments. In a democracy, it is a given the
> > military has to be subordinate to the elected civilian authority.
> > However, the military also needs a champion among Canadians to get the
> > common citizen to recognize the importance of proper support to the
> > military.  The Governor General as our Commander in Chief is a lame
> > duck.  The MND does not have the ability of independent action he has
> > to maintain the party line.  The DM is simply a bureaucrat.  Finally,
> > and I‘m being incredibly cruel, but, the CDS is a soldier who follows
> > the political direction given to him by the Federal Government, if he
> > doesn‘t like it, the government will find someone who will.  Take
> > Admiral Anderson, who was CDS prior to General Boyle.  He stated that if
> > the government cancelled the maritime helicopters, he would resign, and
> > he did although he went overseas to NATO for awhile.  Who‘s looking
> > out for the military and who‘s looking out for it‘s members?  DND
> > leadership can only do so much.  Whats the answer?
> >
> > A couple of comments:  Since unification, the military has become more
> > and more politicized through the incorporation of a joint civil-military
> > NDHQ.  Secondly, I think we lost touch with our largest group of
> > cheerleaders that could have helped us, that being, the veterans of WWII
> > and Korea, and I‘m not sure why this happened.  In the US, former
> > members of the military are a very strong political lobby group.
> >
> > I don‘t know if I support your comments about the CHRC, etc.  Canadians
> > have accepted that all citizens have certain rights.  Is this a bad
> > thing?  No it isn‘t.  The days of smacking a soldier up side the head
> > because you felt he did something stupid are over.  The days of taking a
> > soldier around to the back of the barracks and "talking" to him are
> > over.  I fully support this.  I don‘t know anyone who doesn‘t support
> > it.  Why would you support the abuse of someone under you command?  Why
> > does someone have to be in the military to fully understand Human Rights
> > and how it should pertain to the military.  The military has been
> > granted certain restrictions on how it treats its members by agreeing
> > to observe the military code of service discipline and its members give
> > up those rights right to assembly,etc.
> >
> > Finally, although I support the Canadian Alliance, I don‘t forsee them
> > being any better then any of the governments of the past.  I also agree
> > on your comments about "left wing nuts" having too much power!
> >
> > Anyone else?
> >
> > dave wrote:
> > >
> > >     There has been much chatter bandied around about a leadership void
> > > within the forces. One member of the list disputed this fact and asked for
> > > examples. From 1990 on the list of examples would be too embarrassing to
> > > list. I think however that too many have painted all our leaders with the
> > > same brush. The CF has many fine capable officers and NCO‘s who have worn an
> > > unearned label of incompetence due to a handful at the most senior levels. I
> > > emphasize the word "handful" as there are many competent senior officers. It
> > > just seemed that we just managed to have the wrong people, calling the wrong
> > > shots, on several high profile occurances. This was all the media needed to
> > > go into a feeding frenzy. We shouldn‘t try and shoot the messenger here as
> > > inadequacies were brought to the fore that ultimately/hopefully will make
> > > our military a more effective fighting force.
> > >
> > >     We are really in a "Catch 22" type of situation. The real culprits in
> > > discrediting our military are a series of inept defence ministers and
> > > governments for that matter, a growing number of non realistic liberal
> > > "Bleeding Hearts" and the real champions of insane behaviour, "The Canadian
> > > Human Rights Commission." This is a non-elected body of left-wing appointees
> > > who wield enormous power. It is interesting to note that not one member of
> > > this body in the history of it‘s existence has had any military background
> > > or has any military qualification, yet they have made decrees that have
> > > caused our military to be transformed and defanged to a great extent. I
> > > don‘t think the Canadian public is yet aware of just how dangerous this
> > > group is. Do we want a model group based on quotas that is a perfect
> > > reflection of our multi-ethnic society for which we are prepared to lower
> > > enlistment standards, or do we want to enlist just the very best for the job
> > > regardless of who they are? But here we are, a constitutional monarchy with
> > > the military absolutely subservient to civilian authority, albeit
> > > incompetent and that‘s the way it must remain. We can only hope that
> > > somewhere along the line that some lights come on in the minds of Canadians
> > > before they reach the ballot box and we manage to elect a government that is
> > > intent on responsible governance, supporting an effective military and not
> > > just playing political games for re-election. We don‘t have a political
> > > party that seems to be ready to do what is necessary. It appears at this
> > > time that the best we can hope for is "The Canadian Alliance." Short of
> > > another war, does anybody have any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Dave Willard
> > >
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