# Plourde blames military for his decision to resign



## formerarmybrat23 (21 Apr 2007)

http://www.canadaeast.com/ce2/docroot/article.php?articleID=130968 this link will only be good for today so im pasting the story below:



> An Oromocto councillor has resigned his seat.
> 
> Luc Plourde, a captain at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown, said he's had enough of "military interference" and officially tendered his resignation Thursday.
> 
> ...


 is the 
ive been kind of following this story for a while. on this last story i was really interested to see what other cf members thought of it. is the military sticking there nose in his personal life, bullying him? or is the army right? can they influence his job as councillor?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Apr 2007)

Under military rules, a soldier can serve as a municipal councillor in communities such as Oromocto, but cannot identify himself or herself as being an Armed Forces member when performing council duties

_Quote,
"For me, as an officer, it's embarrassing to think that other military members are doing this."_ 


He screwed up, its that simple.  Besides, on behalf of those who are not Officers, what kind of imbecilic leader would say that?  I guess those non- officer types wouldn't know any better?....................Stooge.

EDIT to add: if that is a direct quote that is, if not, than I apologize, if so.....as stands.


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## GAP (21 Apr 2007)

I applaud his community commitment, but is sounds like he crossed the line. He was told he could not identify himself with the CF while doing his councillor job...he did. He can't have it both ways


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## formerarmybrat23 (21 Apr 2007)

he probably just wasnt thinking when he gave that interview. mistakes happen......even to officers. so he should have been disiplined and that should have been the end of it. 
apparently its not the end of it; the poor guy feels intimidated and harrassed at work. Is there no sympathy for captins? how could you go to work everyday if you felt people were out to get you? ???


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Apr 2007)

Try being a Correctional Officer..... ^-^


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## Disenchantedsailor (21 Apr 2007)

For me, as an officer, it's embarrassing to think that other military members are doing this." and that is the statement that fried him, he used his status as a military officer with the press in a municipal duty, they call that conflict of interest and it violates the whole talking to the press directions.  If he was in uniform speaking on behalf of the base well that may have been a different story circumstance dependant.


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## CdnArtyWife (21 Apr 2007)

I've met the guy once or twice. And this actually doesn't surprise me. I think there was difficulty keeping the "hats" straight. Knowing when you are wearing what hat in what role and acting accordingly is difficult for some. It takes some getting used to...and Mr. Plourde had a few years to get used to it.

I remember that garbage story. When it ran, and I read his quote, I thought then that he had crossed the line...he only has one head, but had two hats on that day. NOT good.

Now the only hat he has to worry about is his beret, it is unfortunate, though, that he has already gotten it rumpled if you know what I mean.

CAW


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## riggermade (21 Apr 2007)

My personal opinion is that military members should not be able to run for public office for a couple of reasons

1.  They now have to serve two masters, the Military and the people they were elected by and this can be a vey fine line in dealing with some issues, especially in military communities such as Oromocto or Petawawa to name two

2.  If they have to deploy then they are leaving a hole in the town council they were elected to 

If you wnat to be a politician then make a decision to serve the military or be elected, there is plenty of ways a military member can serve their community without being involved with the local politics

Before all you defenders of this individual jump all over me this is my personal opinion and I do not have an opinion one way or the other of what was said


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## GAP (21 Apr 2007)

I disagree....they should be allowed to run for office. As long as the constituents know he/she could be deployed etc.

When there is a conflict of interest, then he has simply to excuse himself because of the conflict of interest.

It is important that CF members participate in the community in all aspects. It is their right and is in the best interest of the CF


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## Disenchantedsailor (21 Apr 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> he probably just wasnt thinking when he gave that interview. mistakes happen......even to officers. so he should have been disiplined and that should have been the end of it.
> apparently its not the end of it; the poor guy feels intimidated and harrassed at work. Is there no sympathy for captins? how could you go to work everyday if you felt people were out to get you? ???


Captains are company grade officers in the Canadian Forces, they have other higher moral obligations to consider when thier mouths open. For an officer to say they are embarressed by the CF while still serving is inexcusable, tell me if you were one of his soldiers would feel comfotable going into contact with him knowing he was embarressed by your actions. There are other ways to combat wrongs in the system. In this case garbage disposal, thats what formation/Bde enviroment officers and thier staff are for. His best course of action in this case would have been to refrain from commenting due to a conflict of interest in the matter (I bet his COC wouldn't be going after him as hard)


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## CdnArtyWife (21 Apr 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Captains are company grade officers in the Canadian Forces, they have other higher moral obligations to consider when thier mouths open. For an officer to say they are embarressed by the CF while still serving is inexcusable, tell me if you were one of his soldiers would feel comfotable going into contact with him knowing he was embarressed by your actions. There are other ways to combat wrongs in the system. In this case garbage disposal, thats what formation/Bde enviroment officers and thier staff are for. His best course of action in this case would have been to refrain from commenting due to a conflict of interest in the matter (I bet his COC wouldn't be going after him as hard)



Just to clear up a point before getting back on track...

The garbage issue in question was the fact that in some areas of PMQ housing, predominently in the row housing, people were dumping garbage and large items like appliances and furniture on days other than scheduled pick-up days. The appliances and furniture would sit there for weeks, even months as those items are not included in the town large item pick-up program twice per year. The issue did get to be such an eye-sore that Col Jestin, 3ASG Cmdr, had to issue an order that garbage would be curbside in approved covered receptacles, and only on the morning of scheduled garbage pick-up days. As some garbage bags would be ripped open and refuse strewn about. Noone would clean it up. It was a big issue. But again, this was in the housing area, not on the base.

That is why his quote is controversial..in that he was speaking as a councelor wrt the garbage issue in his constituency, but not only disclosed that he was a CF member but then actually passed judgement on other military members...in the media, no less.

Now...back on track...


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## Disenchantedsailor (22 Apr 2007)

MQ housing areas while administered by CFHA are on behalf of the local BCEO, and the residents/occupants are still subject to the base commanders jurisdiction. So really any controversy in houseing areas is the commanders concern, we just had a case out here where the RCMP had to wait for the MP's to show up to execute a search warrent as all military property falls outside the jurisdiction, but back to garbage, there have been guys out here charged for failing to follow the Base Standing Order regarding the sorting of garbage and recycling. my 2 cents (and for the stray CAW, got my CEOTP now I'm Arty)


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## mysteriousmind (22 Apr 2007)

riggermade said:
			
		

> 1.  They now have to serve two masters, the Military and the people they were elected by and this can be a very fine line in dealing with some issues, especially in military communities such as Oromocto or Petawawa to name two
> 
> 2.  If they have to deploy then they are leaving a hole in the town council they were elected to
> 
> If you want to be a politician then make a decision to serve the military or be elected, there is plenty of ways a military member can serve their community without being involved with the local politics



I do agree... can you say appearance of conflict of interest. I would not like to have a member of the public office loosing his leadership status over something that would have to do with a military member within the comunity.

Even if there is a rule "you are not allowed to tell or use the fact that you are in the military", during heated discussion it is bound to arrive that the person will tell it by accident. 

If he has to be fired or he has to quit his office...it will leave a hole in the community and, therefore...cost extra tax payer money.


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## Steel Badger (22 Apr 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Try being a Correctional Officer..... ^-^




People are out to get me?   dammit Bruce  where's the phone......I'm diving!


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## GUNS (22 Apr 2007)

Capt. Plourde crossed the line as a municipal councillor, either knowingly or unknowingly.

The situation the Capt. finds himself in is no different than on civvy street. After my military life, I found myself in a management position and at odds with upper management. I crossed the line by agreeing with the union on a certain incident that had happened. In the military we look after each other, not so on civvy street.

Capt. Plourde's situation, two masters(civilian/military), two sets of rules(civilian/military) is an incident waiting to happen. I applaud his dedication to the community but question his ignoring of military rules. There is no right or wrong in this incident, just rules and regulations.


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## Journeyman (22 Apr 2007)

I think the actual issue has been overlooked. In his remarks announcing he was quitting, he included the phrase, "as an officer," which people here seem to be commenting on. 

However,


> Plourde said *related issues* were responsible for him being *charged with insubordination*


Obviously he said the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time. He got charged with it and faces a reprimand. 

But rather than learn from the experience and soldier (or counsel) on, he's chosen to play himself within the media as some sort of martyr: 
"no longer able to perform his duties for fear of reprisals from as many as three senior officers on base"; 
"I can no longer allow myself to be threatened by them"; 
"senior officers at CFB Gagetown were stifling his ability to freely express himself."

Joan of Oromocto?
 :


 Disclaimer: Perhaps I'm biased. I've actually experienced the military justice system (no doubt shocking to those who know me > ). Sure it took me 15 years to get that coveted CD, yet I've never felt a need to whine to the local media about persecution or sand in my ovaries. *And* I've found that the world still managed to turn with me duly chastised.


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## 3rd Horseman (22 Apr 2007)

The entire story is much bigger than is detailed here or in the media.

Tidd the {ineffective} //////// mayor of Oromocto did not support him when needed, she is and always has been {slow to intervien on base issues} /////// and {out to become mayor so she can push through personnel ventures near to her heart and pocket book} /////////. It is now two mil have quit not one an it is not the first time...remember Vatch! This was a witch hunt by a weak senior officer who was put in his place by a subordinate. They got offended and went after him, did he push the bounds of decorum behind closed doors....yes, would I have told that very officer the same thing ....yes plus I would have gone down the hallway to his office in the HQ and I would have punched him (like I have done before). 

 The media fopaw by Capt P was created by the reporter who was asking questions off camera and taping the answers. The part you did not see as the public was the repeated questions by the reporter off camera, one being {but as an officer and member of the military does it not bother you} paraphrase as close as I can remember. He made a mistake its as simple as that. The mayor should have quieted things down as it was not that big an issue. The Snr officer should have dealt with being told off a little differently. In the end Capt P would have resolved this easily but the senior command at Gagetown refused to let this issue go due to other behind the scene issues. This is turning int another Vatch issue....I wonder if it will end up the same way.

I edited the tone here {} after reading Verns points, I have choosen better words.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman,

Be careful where you want to take this. I've known Faye Tidd since 1982 and I do not feel that she can be described in any manner the way you have set out below. In addition to being the currently serving mayor of Oromocto, she is the Honourary Colonel of 403 Sqn in Gagetown.

Yes, the story as published certainly is a little bigger than that which can be seen in the article posted here, and it's not all good. My take on the turn of the story and his resignation may differ from yours however. A witch hunt? I wouldn't say that. If that were the case why is Councilman Mel Vance not having these problems while serving on the same Oromocto Town Council when he is also a serving member of the CF? Why is it that if, as you have insinuated, the mayor "is and always has been a coward and out for herself" the citizens of Oromocto have continued to re-elect her many times over the previous couple of decades? Why is it that when our Town Council (and the last mayor) were having difficulties getting the job done _et al_, that she could "come out of retirement", announce her candidacy and win that mayorality back so easily?

Yes, not all of us agree with you viewpoint, actually apparently quite the overwhelming majority of voters in Oromocto didn't obviously agree with your viewpoint. Truthfully, I'm not surprised and I say thanks to them.

Yes, I remember Vatche Arslanian, may he rest in peace. When I heard that he was killed in the crossfire while serving in Iraq with the ICRC I was saddened to hear of his loss. But his mixup with the CF and Town Council was caused as a direct result of his actions. No one else's. It had zero to do with the actions of the mayor way back when (Faye Tidd) and more to do with his refusal to report for his posting as direted on his CF posting message. 

I'm quite shocked that even you can twist that one around to blame it on a civilian mayor. 

A little more honest background on Vatche can be found linked here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatche_Arslanian


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## 3rd Horseman (22 Apr 2007)

Mel had his issues over the same points, just not so public. On the Vatch issue if you are aware of the behind the closed door issues they are very similar in this case as far as base comd inteference in town politics. As Vatch was a close friend of mine and worked for me during the dust up his refusal of the posting was not the issue, just like in this case the words on the tape are not the issue they are much bigger.

Edit - Vern you are right the town just keeps voting for her, they also keep getting Andy Scott elected to. Is that more about the lack of voting then the actual support of the candidate, I wonder.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Mel had his issues over the same points, just not so public. On the Vatch issue if you are aware of the behind the closed door issues they are very similar in this case as far as base comd inteference in town politics. As Vatch was a close friend of mine and worked for me during the dust up his refusal of the posting was not the issue, just like in this case the words on the tape are not the issue they are much bigger.



And Mel Vance is a personal friend of mine, and a currently serving member. 

You know not of which you are choosing to speak to on his behalf. 

Be very careful attributing things to people, especially in this case a serving CF member on the council. You will look like the ass in the end.

And as for Vatche, don't try to twist his story about now. It was he after all who went to the media and got political over that posting message when it wasn't going the way he wanted it to. He gave the interviews himself about his family and his refusal to report for duty (ergo the AWOL). So if the story is different than that, he still has only himself to blame for it.


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## scoutfinch (22 Apr 2007)

... and there is very little similarity between the Arselanian issue and Plourde's issue.  In fact, I would go so far as to say there are no similarities.


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## GAP (22 Apr 2007)

Not trying to stifle the issue, but are we not getting into PERSEC of serving members?


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## scoutfinch (22 Apr 2007)

I would also caution 3rd Horseman to chose his words wisely.  His insinuations regarding Faye Tidd are uncalled for and border on libelous.  Vern is correct.  Faye Tidd is very dedicated to the Town of Oromocto.  As Vern can likely attest, I too have known her for many many years and count her as a friend of my family.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> Not trying to stifle the issue, but are we not getting into PERSEC of serving members?



Nope. Mel Vance was elected to a public office by Canadian taxpayers. He also happens to serve in the CF. Nothing wrong with that. These are not facts that are unknown to the community, the council or the CF and are publicly available.


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## 3rd Horseman (22 Apr 2007)

Olga Chekhova said:
			
		

> ... and there is very little similarity between the Arselanian issue and Plourde's issue.  In fact, I would go so far as to say there are no similarities.



  On the issue we are talking about (the interference of the Comd staff in day to day activities on town council of military members) the issues are very similar.

Olga - we could have a whole separate thread on pro/ con on the mayors seat and issue in Oromocto over the past 20 years. I too have known her for 20 years and don't hold the same view that's what a democracy is. She got the votes and obviously impressed you with what she said and promised. I am not easily lead and she has disappointed me in all three terms she has held. I was disappointed not for the main issues that she achieved for any mayor would have achieved it during her term. It was the back door patronage deals that occurred and the lack of support for the military council members who ran against the Comdrs wishes for the betterment of the residents.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> On the issue we are talking about (the interference of the Comd staff in day to day activities on town councel of military members) the issues are very similar.



Give me a break. They are not. Vatche tried to have his posting changed...it didn't happen. He tried then for a 'compassionate' status and it didn't happen. He was told to report to his new place of duty. He refused.

He used his posn on council to take the CFs refusal to the media. His actions did that. Then the military stepped in. That is not interferance by the CF...it was them stepping in AFTER Vatche had repeatedly refused to acknowledge that his primary responsibility of duty was to the CF and to report to the posns they posted him to. He WAS AWOL. There is NO correlation between the two incidents.


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## 3rd Horseman (22 Apr 2007)

I am not talking about the posting issue that is and was the red herring to the real problem. I'm talking about the interference in the duties as councilor. As I said the posting issue was not the real issue. That is why he got such a large money payoff from the CF over the issue. Same with Capt P the issue is not his slip of the tongue on the news, its bigger than that.


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## scoutfinch (22 Apr 2007)

Vern:

You know what they say about wrestling with pigs?  You just get dirty and the pigs like it.  3rd Horseman has his opinion and providing him with facts is not going to change a thing.

3rd Horseman:

You are absolutely right.  I was absolutely wrong.  I am clearly uninformed about democratic principles and far more easily swayed by savvy politicos like Ms. Tidd.  Moreover, unlike your good self, I am incapable of detecting corruption and graft.  

Happy?  Will you now stop speaking on topics as the font of all knowledge when you clearly have no first hand knowledge?   :


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## 3rd Horseman (22 Apr 2007)

:rofl:


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## aesop081 (22 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> :rofl:



 :

Back to your old tricks i see


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## GUNS (23 Apr 2007)

People,People, What happened to Capt. Plourde?

This thread took a turn somewhere. To try a get this thread back on track, I ask this.

If Capt.Plourde had broken one of the rules of being a Municipal Councillor, would his treatment have been any different?


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Apr 2007)

Quite likely it would have been, a politician makes a slip they just outright appologize for it, lay low for a week or two (or until the media frenzy blows over) and then it's back to life as we know it. Capt Plourde has now used the press to demean his CoC full stop. As an officer he must know all to well that he has to keep those two lives seperate, his first obligation is to the Canadian Forces. In his statements he violates many principles that we hold dear. Firstly Insubordination (in the press no less) should be no surprise that ones coming (like 3rd horseman said might have needed to be said but take your licks like a man). Secondly Loyalty up and down, not real loyal to be slamming the military you serve in the press, either to the institution, his superiors, or his subordinates. And Service before Self, it seems from his statements he is more concerned about vindicating his own feelings of wrongdoing than his dedication the to service. If he wants to complain, we have an ombudsman, the press just makes things nasty.


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## Weinie (23 Apr 2007)

This is not capt Plourde's first dust up with the C of C that he tried to resolve through the media. As a former Public Affairs Officer, Luc sometimes relied on the media too much to try to put pressure to resolve things without making sure he was on solid ground. For those who know Luc, and I have for 15 years, he is passionate, but _*stubborn*_. The two traits have sometimes led him into where, on old mariners charts, it was declaimed "Here be monsters."


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Apr 2007)

Folks,
A reminder what Vatche Arslanian did or didn't do has nothing to do with this conversation and I think we can let a fallen former member rest in peace.
Thanks


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## formerarmybrat23 (27 Apr 2007)

By GILLIAN CHRISTIE
from the post gazette
http://www.canadaeast.com/weeklies/postgazette/20070428/A01.pdf - sprry for the formating 
This Week
Oromocto town council remains a
group of five following the resignation
of Luc Plourde at the April 19 regular
session of council.
A military Captain based at CFB Gagetown,
Plourde was elected as a councillor
in Ward 4 in the 2004 election.
Following a Summary Trial two weeks
ago at CFB Gagetown, where Plourde
was found guilty of insulting a superior
officer and was reprimanded, he said he
has also learned he is currently under
investigation for two more similar incidents.
“In passing judgment upon me, General
Parsons wanted to send a clear
message to me and others, his sentence
for my crime: a simple reprimand. No
$4,500 fine. No severe reprimand. No
immediate release from the [Canadian
Forces]. In fact, the General refused to
accept many of the arguments against
me,” Plourde said in his statement to
council just before he resigned.
“I was locked in a very bitter and
shameful battle against a select few
‘band of criminals’. I make this sarcastic
remark because in my 18 years plus
in the military, I have never witnessed
such a disgusting and shameful performance
as was displayed by two Lieutenant-
Colonels of the Canadian Armed
Forces.”
Military rules state that a member
may hold public office so long as they
not identify him or herself as being a
member of the Armed Forces while performing
municipal duties.
Plourde said all of the difficulty he
has faced has come directly from his
service to the town in a councillor capacity.
He said he has been threatened by
his superiors and said he is no longer
able to perform municipal duties safely
and without fear of reprisals.
“If you are not aware, all of my battles
with these officers were directly related
to my official duties as town councillor
for Ward 4 and [it is] my determination
to no longer allow unelected military
officers [to] abuse their office and position
to try to control the actions of military
councillors,” Plourde said.
“I want to make it clear, in my three
years as councillor, I always put the interests
of the community and citizens
ahead of my own personal interests and,
unfortunately, I have paid a very high
personal cost,” he said.
“I have lost my job, my career, my
health, my family and my reputation
over this criminal conduct.”
With this sixth council seat now vacant,
it is too late for the municipality to
have a by-election. The deadline for the
term has passed. The last by-election
registration took place on April 20, only
one day after Plourde’s resignation.
“We haven’t officially reported it because
we have to take it to council and
accept his resignation and it was even
too late at the time the resignation
came in for us to call for a by-election,”
Mayor Fay Tidd said.
“We’ll have to get by with five councillors,”
she said. “We don’t have a
choice.”
“It’s made it awkward but it’s one of
those things you have to deal with every
now and again,” Tidd said. “You just do
your best.”​


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## Old Sweat (27 Apr 2007)

It is one thing to fall on your sword; once is usually all it takes. 

What he seems to be doing is searching for a gas leak with a lighted candle. I suspect he may find it sooner, rather than later.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Apr 2007)

_“I was locked in a very bitter and shameful battle against a select few‘band of criminals’.  I make this sarcastic
remark because in my 18 years plusin the military, I have never witnessed such a disgusting and shameful performance
as was displayed by two Lieutenant-Colonels of the Canadian Armed F orces.”_


Please tell me he has legal representation close-by.......


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## childs56 (27 Apr 2007)

Bottom line is I can see where he is comming from. Some times the COC will try to sway local goverment with tactics that are not always in the best interest of everybody. But in their own. 

Is this the case here? I do not know. But I can see where being an officer and being a council member could be a very difficult position to be in at a small community. 

High ranking officers in the CF have for a long time tried to pull rank in locla communties so to speak in the outcomes of projects. Some times this has lead to great things for a commuinity, at other times it has lead them down the road of poor relationships. 

Did this officer do his job in the best interest of the town? Did he do his work in the best interest of the Military? 
In both cases I think not. 
A military member should not become part of a goverment council, be it local, provincial, or federal. It can lead to many problems as seen here. 

Unfortunatly I can see no good to come of this on either side of the discussion. Did he make a descsion that the Cols did not like in reguards to the town? During that process did the Cols try to intimidate him into changing his position on the situation? 
Did he react properly? Did he refer the matter to the MP's on the base for a conflict of interest by his superiors?

At the end of the Day I am more then sure that he did what he thought was in the best interest of the town and the Military. Why he quit over the whole situation will hopefully come out in court or some other means.


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## armyvern (28 Apr 2007)

Ohhh there is sooooooo a whole other side to this story. Fortunately, those he wishes to speak ill of, are doing the proper and correct thing and keeping it professional.


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## childs56 (28 Apr 2007)

Of course there are two sides of the story. Are both sides equal to blame here. I would think so. 
Both sides more then likely made a few mistakes. Did this mean he had to resign from the Military, of course not, He could have asked for a transfer due to conflict of interest. 
The question now is, will he sue for damages for his benifits. If so then will they give them to him. If they do then there would have been some level of hush hush that we do not hear about.


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## armyvern (28 Apr 2007)

CTD said:
			
		

> The question now is, will he sue for damages for his benifits. If so then will they give them to him. If they do then there would have been some level of hush hush that we do not hear about.



I'll take "He doesn't get a dime for 500, Alex." Start saving your pennies now.


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## Weinie (28 Apr 2007)

Some level of hush hush! C'mon. Some things are exactly what they seem. Nobody here is moving Jimmy Hoffa's body or tearing down the studio where the moon landings were faked.


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## 2VP_Runt (7 Jul 2009)

I am going to be in trouble opening up old threads but this one concerns me personally and there is a lot of spouting off in defense of personal friends without any real knowledge of what happened.  I know what happened as I was on that council at that time.  

First, yes, Plourde said "as an officer" and he apologized for it.  That should have been the end of the problem but the PAffO at the time ordered Plourde to clear everything he was going to say in public as a town counselor thru the PAffO.  Interestingly as this situation was escalating, I went to the Mayor and told her that she bore some responsibility and that this was not good for Plourde, Army or town and that if she explained to the base commander that Plourde was acting on her behalf (something she continued to do in chambers during this time) it would propably all die down.  She did not, she did use the distraction to political advantage by splitting up a council that opposed many of the things that she and the administration was doing.

Mr Vance (he is retired now) did not represent a ward with run down military properties in it so there was no effect on him and he had nothing to say on the issue.  I will say that he is a very good politician (that comment is not intended to be complementary and is solicitor approved).  You know what, I can say that and I can say stuff about the mayor and her policies because they are public people, not gods, and their decisions are open to debate and even libel.  Why, because no politicain in their right mind sues their critics as that only opens an issue up to more scrutiny.

For those of you who state that the base comdr has authority in the PMQs you are right and wrong, he has turned that authority over to CFHA and I will let their record speak for itself.  At CFB Gagetown all PMQs sit outside of the base as defined by law, thus you have a cross ownership situation, the town owns the sidewalks, playgrounds, roadways and underground infrastructure; DND owns the land which the PMQs sit and the yards around the PMQs.  The MPs have no rights outside of the main gate in NB and are not considered police under the NB Police Services Act.  They can act as civilians if they see a crime but are considered security guards off base and may not use their weapons unless in hot pursuit of a criminal from on base.

To be honest, no one in this situation kept anything professional and all most every military person touched by this case is no longer serving.

The final question should be is why did nothing happened to the civilian councilors who told the base comdr to clean up his act in the PMQs.  Their comments were far harsher and they never made the papers and DND never gave them a response?  Only Plourde who the mayor designated as the spokesman for the garbage issue was taken to task.

I still maintain that if the mayor had phoned the base comdr (she had a direct link) and stated that she supported Plourde and that she had appointed him the whole issue would have blown over in a few weeks.  

Another issue is the military being effective councilors; this incident has embolden some of the local civilian hacks.  I made speech about the drug pushers hanging out at the high school and the next day found myself before the COS for embarrassing the Army, I was in civvies and off base as a town councilor but the principal at the high school knew what my job was and tried to use that to shut me up so she sent a letter to the base comdr claiming I was embarrassing the military.

There was much more going on than even those of us close to the fire could feel the heat of....


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## armyvern (7 Jul 2009)

And lets also be clear, that although Mr Vance didn't represent those mil mbrs living in PMQs ... he did (and still does) represent a whole LOT of mil members living in PMQ West (that is the local slang for what used to be a majority-civ occupied Oromocto West; that's not the case anymore).

Also, to be clear,the PMQ patch here is disgusting - obviously most of these residents are well aware of the fact that they don't "own" their properties and so they just don't care.

I don't recall Mayor faye Tidd turning this little tiff into a political advantage for herself to counter "opposition" (That does seem to be your spin on it though ... apparently you were one in "opposition"). 

Lastly, also to be quite clear ... sure, some of those members who served on council at that time are out now, but NOT because of this "tiff". At least 3 were medical releases (including Mels) and 1 pulled pin to double dip. The Comd, of course, has retired as well to go on to much bigger things back in his home area ... which was consistent with his plans well before the Plourde story.

Sure, the PMQs needed (and still do) cleaning up, but even as Mayor Tidd's Rep ... Councillor Plourde utilized the "as an Officer of the CF" line with the media. He did so apologize ... later ... after being told it was not on and after being prompted to do so. As a "serving" member of the CF he was then subjected to the PaffO requirement ... not a big deal considering that he was "first and foremost" a serving member of the CF who was required to (and who did not) comply with public statement policy that he was subject to - ergo further statements were to be reviewed to ensure they were "clean" of "as a member of the CF" spin; really, his own fault - he knew better (or should have) as a serving CF member speaking to the media.

I firmly believe that he would not have had the issues he did if he had said "as a representative of Mayor Tidd and a councillor for the town of Oromocto, the following wards need to better clean up their garbage ..." 

Just my (non-member of town council biaised) opinion from the sidelines of course.


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## 2VP_Runt (7 Jul 2009)

As you said you were not on council.


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## armyvern (7 Jul 2009)

2VP_Runt said:
			
		

> As you said you were not on council.


You are correct; but, as I said ... you were - and _*your*_ personal *biaisness* *is obvious  * in your post statements.  

The fact that I was not on council still doesn't change the fact that people involved whom have since released didn't get out of the CF because of this ... which is what you seem to spin ... Mel's not the only 'good politician' eh? You have a mighty fine 'spin' going yourself.


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## 2VP_Runt (7 Jul 2009)

Actually this is what I said:

"To be honest, no one in this situation kept anything professional and all most every military person touched by this case is no longer serving."

There is no spin there, just fact, your interpretation added the spin.  I also stated that Mr Vance had nothing to do with the incident but I did add criticism because others felt that no one was allowed to criticize these politicians due to PerSec.  It is necessary to confront any attempt to limit our charter rights at all times and all places.  Canada is a country where expressing disagreement with politicans is part of the our freedoms.   I choose to disagree, which is based on fact and experience and which is obvious in my statements as well.

But any case as the lone witness to this event in here, I have said my peace and you are welcome to put any more spin you feel you need to on the subject.  Thanks to the folks that told that this thread was in here.  Cheers!


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## armyvern (7 Jul 2009)

If you don't believe that your post had any spin ... well OK then.

(Let's see ... the Mayor & "political gain" comments - the Mel and his "this is not a compliment" comments) --- I consider that spin you see because they are "personal" comments (that were not required to make your point in an unbiaised manner) vice those which are not.

And, the last half of what you pointed out below is true ... most of them touched by this are indeed no longer serving, but you leave it dangling ... almost like you are trying to infer that they got out _*because*_ of this situation; that's NOT a fact and that statement about their releases is completely IRRELEVANT to this topic or to the situation. The only pers who released as a result of this incident was ... Councillor Plourde - who indeed made a very large media show of it - ergo the thread title.


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