# Professional engineer through the C.F.



## bdave (29 May 2010)

Hello

I am an engineering student and hold great interest in the Canadian Forces.
I will eventually be going the ROTP route (assuming I am accepted).
My MOC would concern the engineering profession.
I am mostly interested in either Construction (Airfield) Engineer or AERE.
That being said, I might one day decide that the military life is not for me.
Don't get me wrong, I intend to pay back in full and see my contract through till the end.
It is just something that has been bothering me for some time.

For someone to become a professional Engineer they must meet several criteria.
Two of those criteria are:
- Have an engineering degree from an accredited university.
- Having 2-4 years experience under your belt as a junior/apprentice engineer. 

My main concern is whether those 2-4 years will be accounted for during my time in the C.F.

Yes, I have searched. Extensively. I did not find any post answering the question directly. There were "maybe"s thrown around but no definite yes or no. 
I even emailed Engineers Canada ( http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/index.cfm ), whom, in their infinite kindness, have not answered me.

I wasn't sure where to post this, so I hope this sub-forum is appropriate.

Thank you for your time.


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## gcclarke (29 May 2010)

Some of your training will be less or not applicable. If I recall correctly, going on to do further education (such as a Master's) only counted as half-time. I think you could make an argument that at least some of your training should be accounted as such. However, it'd have to be engineering related. I would imagine that things such as basic training, second language training, etc, would not count. 

Once you're trade qualified and actually working as an engineer, that time should count.


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## bdave (29 May 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Some of your training will be less or not applicable. If I recall correctly, going on to do further education (such as a Master's) only counted as half-time. I think you could make an argument that at least some of your training should be accounted as such. However, it'd have to be engineering related. I would imagine that things such as basic training, second language training, etc, would not count.
> 
> Once you're trade qualified and actually working as an engineer, that time should count.



I was referring to being completely trade qualified and doing actual work as an engineer. Not BMQ, or anything like that.


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## gcclarke (29 May 2010)

Yeah. That shouldn't be a problem. They'll even pay for it now-a-days, as per a change a few months back.


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## Jed (29 May 2010)

As far as the CF paying for P Eng dues, that is not entirely correct. Currently all P Eng in the Const Engr or Army Engr MOS, they do not currently qualify.


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## BernDawg (29 May 2010)

I am a Certified Civil Technician through ASTTBC the same governing body that designates PEng here in BC.  I am a Construction Technician by trade in the CF.  ASTTBC accepted my hours as signed off by the WCEO (Wing Construction & Engineering Officer).  Your work experience should be counted towards your cert.  Don't forget to build strong professional bonds as well because there is also a referral process involved in the certification.  ASTTBC Certification is automatically transferable to most if not all of the other governing bodies in North America.


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## bdave (29 May 2010)

Jed said:
			
		

> Currently all P Eng in the Const Engr or Army Engr MOS, they do not currently qualify.


I do not understand this sentence.
Can you reword it?


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## BernDawg (29 May 2010)

Jed said:
			
		

> As far as the CF paying for P Eng dues, that is not entirely correct. Currently all P Eng in the Const Engr or Army Engr MOS, they do not currently qualify.


Just to clarify, they meet the criteria for being a PEng but the CF does not cover their dues. Yes?


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## bdave (29 May 2010)

I would like to clarify: I honestly don't care for the paying of P Eng dues or anything like that.
I just want (to know if) my time in the CF to(/will) count.


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## Cleared Hot (29 May 2010)

While I can not directly speak to the specifics (I'm not an engineer) the short answer is yes.  I have a number of friends who are in various classifications including Artillery who rec'd their PEng designation a few years after graduating from RMC with Eng degrees.  If an Arty Officer can do it I am sure AERE would qualify.  PM me with specific questions and I will try to ask them for you.


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## Jed (30 May 2010)

Apparently I need to clarify my previous post.

A month or two ago, a CANFORGEN was issued that authorized the payment of P Eng dues to a number of MOS classifications. Unfortunately a large number of serving Engrs do not qualify as the Engrs and Const Engrs officers were not added to the eligible list that receives the few hundred dollar benefit of having the P Eng dues reimbursed.

Hopefully the military corrects this oversight in due course.


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## SupersonicMax (30 May 2010)

Cleared Hot said:
			
		

> While I can not directly speak to the specifics (I'm not an engineer) the short answer is yes.  I have a number of friends who are in various classifications including Artillery who rec'd their PEng designation a few years after graduating from RMC with Eng degrees.  If an Arty Officer can do it I am sure AERE would qualify.  PM me with specific questions and I will try to ask them for you.



I find it doubtful, since you need to do intership, under the direct supervision of a P.Eng, in order to qualify.  From the P.Eng website:



> Step Three: Internship
> Like your fellow graduates aspiring to become true professionals, whether their degree is in law, medicine or accounting, next comes real, challenging, on-the-job experience in the form of an internship. The amount of experience you need to meet the profession's entrance requirements and become a P.Eng. varies from one province and territory to another, but in most cases, the minimum requirement is two to four years. You'll spend that time:
> 
> -Applying the engineering theory you learned in school;
> ...


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## bdave (30 May 2010)

Damnit.

That's what I was afraid of.


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## BernDawg (30 May 2010)

Check your inbox bdave.


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## gcclarke (30 May 2010)

From what I've been told, the "close supervision" part can be taken care of by keeping close track of your activities on a week to week basis, and having that signed off by a P.Eng. They don't nessisarily need to be within your chain of command. Or even working in the department.


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## bdave (1 Jun 2010)

I am going to update this thread with my findings, in case someone in the future ever has the same question, and searches army.ca forums for an answer:

I received an email:



			
				Ken McMartin said:
			
		

> Hello David,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gcclarke (1 Jun 2010)

I think the key word in that e-mail would be "generally".


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## bdave (1 Jun 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I think the key word in that e-mail would be "generally".



That is because the requirements vary from province to province.
You must be supervised by a P. Eng, though.



			
				bdave said:
			
		

> Hello Mr. McMartin,
> 
> I do not understand exactly how I am supposed to go about this.
> Am I supposed to actively seek out a Professional Engineer to supervise my work while I am in the military?
> ...





			
				Ken McMartin said:
			
		

> Hello David,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Neepawa (29 Sep 2010)

I have experience with exactly this issue, and recently received my P.Eng. based on my work in the CF.  Here's how:

After completing my B.Eng. at RMC, I signed up for the Engineering Intern Training (EIT) program offered by Professional Engineers Ontario (PEO).  For the next 5 years, I kept a record of the engineering related work I did, following the guidelines published by PEO.  Once I had completed the required experience and passed an exam on law and ethics, I submitted my experience record to PEO and was granted my license.

I was lucky in a couple respects.  First, the work I did as a Signals officer was easy to relate to the PEO requirements.  Second, I was fortunate to have supervisors with their P.Eng. that were willing to act as references for me.

The entire process cost about $1,000, all of which was covered by the CF through the Education Reimbursement program.  As mentioned above, the CF recently approved a plan to cover P.Eng. dues for a number of trades, and I expect my dues for this year to be reimbursed when I return to work.

I'm currently studying full time towards my master's, and by the end of the year I will have my B.Eng., M.Eng. and P.Eng., all courtesy of the CF.  Like the original poster, I consider this a long-term backup plan for when I eventually leave the CF for civilian life.


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## BernDawg (29 Sep 2010)

The way I understand it is that the CF will pay your dues *ONLY* if your position requires certification from a specific governing body.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Sep 2010)

Neepawa said:
			
		

> I'm currently studying full time towards my master's, and by the end of the year I will have my B.Eng., M.Eng. and P.Eng.



Lots of paper for the recycling bin!  ;D


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## Neepawa (26 Oct 2010)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> The way I understand it is that the CF will pay your dues *ONLY* if your position requires certification from a specific governing body.


The relevant policy is CF MIL PERS INSTR 02/10 – Reimbursement of Membership and Licence Fees, which states:





> It is government policy to pay membership fees only when departmental memberships in a particular organization are in direct support of a government program, or, when membership is a federal statutory requirement for individual employees to carry out the functions of their positions. (TBS Membership Fees Policy)


"In direct support of a government program" is pretty broad, so I expect a certain amount of wiggle room.  If you're employed alongside public service engineers (classification EN-ENG) there shouldn't be a problem.


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## BernDawg (29 Oct 2010)

I was employed along side civilian Engineers and they wouldn't pay my dues.


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## Neepawa (29 Oct 2010)

Since you say "was" I assume this was in the past.  If it was before 12 March 2010 that's not surprising, since that's when the new policy was issued.  If it was since then, I suppose it could have depended on your trade, since only certain occupations are eligible.  It's worth noting that the civilian engineers couldn't get their dues reimbursed by the government either until recently. 

The CF policy I quoted above is available on the Internet at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/02-10-eng.asp

I start my new engineering position in January and I intend to claim my dues for the current year; I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Rheostatic (29 Oct 2010)

I recently attended a seminar with the Manager of Pre-Licensing Programs from PEO, the person who reviews EIT work experience in Ontario. According to him, if your direct supervisor is not a P.Eng, you can seek a referral from another P.Eng who is "familiar with your work". This could be someone else in your organisation, or even a client.


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## BernDawg (29 Oct 2010)

Neepawa said:
			
		

> Since you say "was" I assume this was in the past.  If it was before 12 March 2010 that's not surprising, since that's when the new policy was issued.  If it was since then, I suppose it could have depended on your trade, since only certain occupations are eligible.  It's worth noting that the civilian engineers couldn't get their dues reimbursed by the government either until recently.
> 
> The CF policy I quoted above is available on the Internet at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/02-10-eng.asp
> 
> I start my new engineering position in January and I intend to claim my dues for the current year; I'll let you know how it goes.



Nope, I retired in Sep this year and inquired as to the payment of dues as soon as I read the message when it came out.  I was told (by my CoC) not to bother claiming my dues because my position did not call for specific licensing or certification.
For the record I hope they allow you to claim your dues as they should for anyone who takes the time to get professional acknowledgement for their trade.


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