# Unidentified MP accuse Cdn  troops of war crimes at KAF



## jollyjacktar (15 Jun 2016)

Just listened to a radio interview on As it Happens on CBC Radio.  The open letter was penned by some unidentified MP personnel to a La Presse reporter in hopes it will trigger a inquirery. 

_- mod edit to remove period from thread title -_


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jun 2016)

Here's some La Presse coverage (in French - more here), and what appears to be the open letter in question is attached.


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## Dissident (16 Jun 2016)

Sigh. I tried to resist commenting on this. I wasn't there during that time period and I can't speak to what happened on the ground at the time.

However: Reading that letter I can't help but *feel* that the writer(s) is/are weak on the legal framework of the detention of Afghan locals by ISAF. 

My thoughts are that if the MP CoC failed at anything here (if any failures at all), it was in not briefing everyone on the complete process. I don't personally believe a corporal necessarily needs to know every single detail in order to be effective at his detention job. I also understood when I deployed that the detention/detainee issue was very contentious and that the process was being developed and scrutinized on an ongoing basis.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jun 2016)

Some English media coverage:

_"Defence minister promises to investigate allegations of Afghan detainee abuse"_ (RCI/CBC)
_"Canada wrongly detained, abused Afghan prisoners: military police"_ (Agence France-Presse)
From ~ a week ago, following a petition:  _"Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan refused to say Wednesday whether he believes there should be a public inquiry into the Afghan detainee scandal ..."_


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## PuckChaser (16 Jun 2016)

Glad the NDP thinks we're war criminals.


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## Lightguns (16 Jun 2016)

There will be an inquiry but for the reasons of undoing the Harper legacy.


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## medicineman (16 Jun 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Glad the NDP thinks we're war criminals.



They've been accusing us of that for years :...

MM


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jun 2016)

medicineman said:
			
		

> PuckChaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As have their fellow travellers ...


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## Halifax Tar (16 Jun 2016)

I had the experience of escorting a wounded detainee back to KAF for medical treatment after he, and 3-4 of his comrades, we caught setting IEDs; at which time we called in an airstrike on their position.  After the airstrike we rolled out to collect the wounded and the one that survived I escorted back to KAF. 

Once we arrived in KAF, via Blackhawk, i escorted him to the hospital where I turned him over to the medical staff and CDN security personnel.  I was questioned by 2 pers who I think and suspect were MPs, but my memory is foggy as that was a whirlwind night.  

I never once saw this detainee mistreated or abused.  In fact I witnessed the exact opposite.  Our medic was amazing.  This lad had more holes in him than a Habs goalie and she kept the boy alive until the blackhawk and the air medical crew took over.  They carried on with excellent medical treatment and maintained his life for the duration of the flight.  Upon turning him over to the hospital on KAF, from what I saw he received no less than the same treatment that any Canadian or Allied soldier would have received.  And I truly hope his life was saved and that because of our excellent assistance to him he has different views on the west and the good we stand for. 

Admittedly, this is where my portion of the instance ends.  He was taken by the med staff and they did their voodoo magic; I was questioned by the CDN Security personnel and sent back to NSE lines to await a flight back out to the PDC. 

I say again, I never once witnessed any malice, aggression, anger or mistreatment towards this lad.  But I admit my exposure is small and limited.


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## FSTO (16 Jun 2016)

So in this letter to La Presse. Is the person saying there was physical abuse (hitting, kicking, water boarding, etc) towards the detainees carried out by Canadian soldiers? Or that they were held for more that 96 hrs? Or that they were only handed over to Afghan authorities and they were abused by them while Canadian soldier watched?
I am rather confused by the allegations.


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## jollyjacktar (16 Jun 2016)

What the reporter was claiming on the radio last night was that the detainees were mistreated by such things as Cdns rushing at their cells at night while the detainees were trying to sleep.  These actions were to soften the detainees up so they might provide intelligence on Taliban activities and weapons caches.  The writers claimed that over 50% of the detainees were absolutely innocent men and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time when they were scooped up by Cdn troops.  They were then held without charge for up to 2 months before being returned to their respective villages.  The MP(s) said that these actions of holding innocent men was counter productive to the mission, did it great harm in the hearts and minds goals and their fears was that if this was not looked at now and brought out into the light of day, the next time we deploy like this, it will happen again.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jun 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The writers claimed that over 50% of the detainees *were absolutely innocent men *


Why didn't the writers use their psychic powers and just tell the Canadian troops where the Taliban were?


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## FSTO (16 Jun 2016)

I see. 
Would it have been better if we had more people there to administer the Detainee facility?


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## jollyjacktar (16 Jun 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why didn't the writers use their psychic powers and just tell the Canadian troops where the Taliban were?



The writers said that it swiftly became apparent that many of the detainees knew SFA and were like most people in jail.  Totally innocent.



			
				FSTO said:
			
		

> I see.
> Would it have been better if we had more people there to administer the Detainee facility?



I don't think so.  If I understand the crux of their allegations, it was the methods of softening up the detainees for subsequent interviews that was the problem.  And that almost everyone was totally innocent.  I don't know.  They obviously were not doing some of the techniques I was taught to use in POW cages in the 90's.  I'm sure these creampuffs would have objected at those too.   :dunno:


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## Journeyman (16 Jun 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ......were like most people in jail.  Totally innocent.


I saw that before -- Shawshank Redemption   :nod:


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## mariomike (16 Jun 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And that almost everyone was totally innocent.  I don't know.  They obviously were not doing some of the techniques I was taught to use in POW cages in the 90's.



Saw one movie where the interrogation instructor said innocent suspects get angry during interrogation, while the guilty ones become more quiet. 
It was just a movie, but I wonder how true that is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MqgmCjO7I0

I read something here from ten years ago, "We only have 14 Interrogators left in the CF ..... next year I'll fix that too." 
RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26651.50.html


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## jollyjacktar (16 Jun 2016)

Yes, we were taught that an innocent subject will become angry at being subjected to the process.  Not sure, however, how correct that would be in other cultures.   I suspect it wouldn't be.


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## mariomike (16 Jun 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Yes, we were taught that an innocent subject will become angry at being subjected to the process.



Thanks, I'll have to remember to always pretend I am angry next time the wife subjects me to process.  


Maybe some people are deceptive by nature? I've heard of people who can lie about their own names and still pass a polygraph.


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## OldSolduer (16 Jun 2016)

The accuser should have the balls to sign his/her name to the letter or whatever way he communicated it. To do so anonymously is IMO cowardly. Have the courage of your convictions.


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## Scoobie Newbie (17 Jun 2016)

Seems like the Liberals don't give a shit. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afghan-canada-prisoners-1.3640411


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## jollyjacktar (17 Jun 2016)

Wow, something I can agree with them on for once.  Another sure sign of the end of days is nigh..


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## Kirkhill (19 Jun 2016)

> “Throughout Canada’s military operations in Afghanistan, the Government of Canada ensured individuals detained by the CAF were treated humanely and handled, transferred or released in accordance with our obligations under international law,” wrote Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan in his response to an e-petition signed by 727 Canadians that called for an inuqiry. “Therefore the Government of Canada does not believe an independent judicial commission of inquiry is necessary.”
> 
> *Sajjan, who served as the Canadian Forces’ police liaison in Kandahar at the time*, has said repeatedly that he is focused on the future of the military and that Canadian soldiers are trained on their obligations under international law, including the Geneva Conventions.



https://ipolitics.ca/2016/06/17/no-inquiry-needed-on-afghan-detainees-sajjan/

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along.  ;D


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## JesseWZ (19 Jun 2016)

There is already a Military Police Complaints Commission inquiry for the exact same thing ongoing. Also generated by anonymous letter. This seems like they didn't like the pace of the MPCC inquiry and wanted to stir the pot further.

I hate that we action items submitted anonymously and give so much weight to that fact. I get the importance of protecting whistleblowers but it almost feels like we give more deference to anonymous complaints than ones with a name behind them.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Jun 2016)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Seems like the Liberals don't give a shit. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afghan-canada-prisoners-1.3640411



Geez they have been for just over six months, the conservative's never cared for Nine years!

Or as you say, "Gave a shit".


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2016)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> https://ipolitics.ca/2016/06/17/no-inquiry-needed-on-afghan-detainees-sajjan/
> 
> Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along.  ;D


Ah, so you're FOR a public inquiry, then?   >


			
				JesseWZ said:
			
		

> There is already a Military Police Complaints Commission inquiry for the exact same thing ongoing. Also generated by anonymous letter. This seems like they didn't like the pace of the MPCC inquiry and wanted to stir the pot further.


 :nod:


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## Kirkhill (19 Jun 2016)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Ah, so you're FOR a public inquiry, then?   > :nod:



Nahh! Just getting older and more cynical and learning to enjoy the pain of others.    [


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