# Joining the primary reserves after 3B release



## Ricadamdoo

Good day all,
I have served the in the Infantry for the past 22 years and would like to join the primary reserves and continue wearing the uniform of the CF.
However, I was injured overseas and the release item that I will be under will be 3B suitability C. This precludes me from joining any organization in the Forces, even the CIC. The nature of my injury comes from military service, and I realize that one cannot "have their cake and eat it too" as was pointed out by my career manager, but I feel that I still have more to offer, to one of the 12 local PRes units. I have passed the usual battery of PT tests and medical evaluations, but unfortunately I cannot carry a rucksack excessively over uneven terrain. Other than that I am fit full duties, as was written by the MO on my 2088.
I am fully cognizant of the notion "Universality of Service" and I believe that it is important for our soldiers to be fighting fit. However the CF policy is very black and white, there must be some grey area. Not everyone is deployable, there still is a requirement to have soldiers that can carry on with administrative rolls, as well as instructional. It is my belief that the reserves offers an environment that can facilitate this. as long as the member can pass the CF express and remains fit. anyone who has any experience in this or insight it would be appreciated.
I have heard through the rumour mill, that some Reserve Co's can accommodate members who transfer from the regs and have medical limitations.


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## Tpr.Orange

Im understand your dilemma and i find your desire to comeback to the forces absolutley admirable. I wish you all the best with your attempts. If you write a petition or need help in someway dont hesitate to ask and ill see what i can do. Even though im just a craftsman(private) I can still try. 

Good luck


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## ModlrMike

Your main hurdle is with the Generic Task requirements. The CF has Bone-Fide Operational Requirements (BFORs) that every member, regardless of job, environment, or uniform, and carrying a rucksack is one of them. In fact, one of the most important. While it's not out of the realm of possibility, I highly doubt that the CF would agree to your re-enrollment.


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## George Wallace

Have you made these inquiries at the Release Section?  Are you eligible to be put on the SUP List?  Have you checked out any of the Reserve Units near your intended place of residence?  Did you actually talk to anyone involved with CIC, as I know people who have gone that route after CF and Res Force CRA?

You may be surprised in what you may find.  I don't think the Cadet Movement will turn you down as they have been quite desperate for instructors in the last few years.

GW


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## Gunnerlove

The funny thing is the military fails to see your training and experience as a resource to be utilized. I have seen far to many great instructors pushed out of the forces for medical reasons. Yet I have seen civilian profs (and some damn good ones at that) in wheelchairs and with braces. Now why the forces seems unwilling to accept that you don't have to be able to do something to teach the theory is beyond me. 

Correct me if I am wrong but in the civilian world "smart organizations" treat their skilled employees as a resource to be retained and utilized for the benefit of the organization.


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## Cliffy433

Unfortunately, you were released... I'd agree with one of the above suggestions to actually start meeting CO's - one is bound to pull some strings for you.

I'm in the opposite situation - I'm a reservist who joined, fully fit.  My one tour has exacerbated a chronic - though previously minor medical condition.  I fully admit that I am not as medically fit as I was when I joined the PRes - and they degraded my Med cat - I'm still fit trade, and have had an AR/MEL that states I'm fit trade, promotion, etc "NO RESTRICTIONS".  Yet I don't meet CEMS and have been turned down for CT.  

I jumped hoops for three years.  Now I'm making a career as a Class B to save up the money and go back to University.  I fully intend to stay in the Reserves and train new members - but it was a heartbreaker.

Good luck to you - we need the RegF experience in the PRes and CIC, I look forward to working with you soon.

cliffy


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## Cloud Cover

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The CF has Bone-Fide Operational Requirements (BFORs) that every member, regardless of job, environment, or uniform, and carrying a rucksack is one of them.



An overbroad statement to be sure, and a tad inaccurate. While there are BFOR for the CF, they are not a total block to continued enrollment. See generally, Irvine v. Canadian Armed Forces [all 3 decisions]. The CF has the onus,whether they like it or not, of accommodationg a disablilty to the point of undue harship. Here is the key: the CF must prove it would be  impossible to accommodate, the onus does not lie  with the applicant.   
The above is not my opinion, it is the law. 

Mr. Ricadamdoo, I agree with the other posts, go and talk to a unit C.O., and stress the skills and experience thoughts posted above. Good Luck!!


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## ModlrMike

whiskey 601 said:
			
		

> An overbroad statement to be sure, and a tad inaccurate. While there are BFOR for the CF, they are not a total block to continued enrollment. See generally, Irvine v. Canadian Armed Forces [all 3 decisions]. The CF has the onus,whether they like it or not, of accommodationg a disablilty to the point of undue harship. Here is the key: the CF must prove it would be  impossible to accommodate, the onus does not lie  with the applicant.
> The above is not my opinion, it is the law.
> 
> Mr. Ricadamdoo, I agree with the other posts, go and talk to a unit C.O., and stress the skills and experience thoughts posted above. Good Luck!!



The BFORs are at the heart of enrolment, hence the CEMS (Common Enrolment Medical Standards), but you are correct... they are not an impediment to continued service. The question asked was about re-enrolment, not continued service. Had it been, I would have suggested accommodation.

It is possible that a Res CO will grant a Cl B or C contract to someone who needs a waiver. In my experience, these waivers are for the duration of the contract only.


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## tree hugger

Guys:

I am in the process of being put on a PCAT (wonky knee), and because I'm not fully trained yet my case manager is betting that I will be released.  Do you guys have any advice as to how to improve my chances of staying in or OT-ing.  My file hasn't been sent to the board yet, so is this where I would try to get them to prove that I can't do the things that are my "so called limitations"?

Thanks


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## ModlrMike

tree hugger said:
			
		

> Guys:
> 
> I am in the process of being put on a PCAT (wonky knee), and because I'm not fully trained yet my case manager is betting that I will be released.   Do you guys have any advice as to how to improve my chances of staying in or OT-ing.   My file hasn't been sent to the board yet, so is this where I would try to get them to prove that I can't do the things that are my "so called limitations"?
> 
> Thanks


Your case manager is probably right. The unfortunate reality is that the CF has invested very little in you to this point and can more readily afford to release you. That being said, it will probably still take a year for the process to finalize itself.


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## NavyGrunt

Its too bad we cant institute a system similar to the IDF where when you apply each case is weighed indivdually. Since every citizen is required to serve if you have a handicap they would make you a clerk, or a cook,or work in intelligence; those who are wounded permanently in combat are expected to become instructors or advisors. And those fit to fight do so. I dont mean everyone should serve(even though thats what I do believe-but thats another topic) The blanket effect doesnt work in theory or practice from this one hook know-nothings perspective >


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## tree hugger

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Your case manager is probably right. The unfortunate reality is that the CF has invested very little in you to this point and can more readily afford to release you. That being said, it will probably still take a year for the process to finalize itself.



Well, they do have some money invested in me:  I was ROTP for 2 years while I was finishing up my degree and prior to that I was in the reserves and took advantage of the education reimbursment program.  I still feel that I have a lot to offer the military and I would be confident in my abilities to perform in a variety of occupations ie. log, intel, AEC...


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## Ricadamdoo

Thanks for all the replies, the current situation is as follows; my career manager has spoken to DMCARM and they will keep me in my trade (Infantry) with restrictions. my CM plans to keep me in my present position/employment until 2007. If my MELs deteriorate then I could be looking down the barrel of a 3B or COT or accommodation. I received this info in the form of an e-mail, so I won't be jumping for joy just yet. My MEL's state that " He can, but should avoid rucksack marches for excessive distances over uneven terrain" I still want to join the PRes after 2007, hopefully there is a Reserve CO out there who would be willing to offer an accommodation, I am still employable, but unfortunately 22 years of being 031, has taken its toll on my back.
So leading section attacks, and long range recce patrols may be out of the question for now. if there is anyone who has been in this situation and has made it through, please post a message.


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## Garbageman

If you're interested in going the CIC route, I've seen exemptions granted numerous times.  One officer was enrolled missing a kidney, and another with severe (i.e. life threatening) allergies.  Also know of a serving CIC officer who has had hernia problems, and has been hospitalized for this several times, and is getting no grief from the system.  Further, there is no mandatory PT in the CIC, and no EXPRES testing ever.

I can understand if your heart's set on staying Infantry, but the CIC can be a very rewarding option if that route doesn't work out.


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## sgtatarms2004

i wish you all the best of luck in your endever's!! i spent a year and a half in the reserves back in 1980 and 1981 i spent from the time i was 13 till 18 in a cadet corps in   my home town and was planing on makeing the Reserve Forces into a carear right up untill one of the cic officers from the corps had informed DND HQ in ottawa that i had a heart condition that i was born with. now the medical officer at our HQ was aware of this and at the time he had no problem with it as long as i kept up my medical's with him but when he was killed in a car accident all my hopes and dreams went down the drain. my CO had went to bat for me and told them that i was quite capable of doing my duties seeings that i could do circle's around the other Officer's and most of recrut's on our training missions. i was the only GMT trakeing a TQ1 and A TQ2 infintry course and could use a GPMG just as good as the instructor him self. he was informed by DND in Ottawa that i could get in as long as it was a noncom unit. but first i had to get the condition corrected first. so i went and had the surgery and when i went to reinlist into a service corps that was also stationed at our HQ they had a new medical Officer that had taken over after the one that had gotten killed. and even he said that there souldn't be any reason that i souldn't be allowed back in the reserves so i went and had all the medical's done by him again and for some reason someone took it apon their self to have my file's put on hold!! six weeks went by and when i had asked the medical Officer if he had heard anything about my file's he hadn't so he contacted the base surgen at wosely Barack's in London,Ont and for some strange reason they couldn't find my med files.
I found out latter my med files went from CFB London to Windsor HQ were some one stuck them in a hold file and then Back to London again and again placed back in a hold file for the 3rd time bye this time i was getting ticked to say the least.
So when i confronted the Medical Officer as to what the heck was going on with my files he said that he was just informed that they had been turned DOWN by the Base surgen in London. and when i had asked him as to why my med files were placed on hold three times and sent from one HQ to the other he didn't have an ansewer!!!
all he could do was send me Back for another Medical but this time it would be a civillian doctor not him or any other DND doctor so fine i go and have it done again. this time when every thing is done he hands me my med doc's in a sealed envolope so now i'am heading to windsor to the 21'st service battallion's HQ when i arived and had informed them who i was and why i was there i was sent down to the Medical Officer's Office and was later met by what i found out years latter was person training to be a medical asistant with their unit. so being the trusting person that i am when he saked me for my med DOC's i gave them to him still in the sealed envolope. he then left with it and i waited for about maybe 5 or ten minutes untill he had returned and told me and i quote " sorry but there's no chance of you ever getting back in the reserves not even a service corps such as our's " end of quote!!! now had i been smart i should of and i also found out years latter i could of " OPENED " the sealed doc's seeing's that they were mine and read just what the doctor had written about me in them! one Officer i had known for years some time ago said to me why don't you demand a hearing and ask them to reinstate you back into the reserves and have DND prove that your unfit to serve? well now i'am 44 years old and i know as well as anybody here that even if i did ask for a hearing with the Canadian Forces medical Officers. i wouldn't have a chance in haydies to get back in even with the past training that i have had they would try and burry me in red tape up over my head for years to come and by that time i could be dead. i even knew of someone that was epalleptic she was told by the recruting office that if she hadn't had an attack for a year she could get in and did!! and took her training at CFB cornwallis and got in to the regs and was stationed at CFB Borden till she quit the Armed Forces some few years later.
now there was more of a chance of something happening to her out in combat training then there would be me but thats DND"S motto " STICK IT TO THEM WHEN THEY ARN'T LOOKING!!! " In other words DON"T CALL US WE'LL CALL YOU if a war breaks out!! i even singed the pay roster for a year and a half and ya know what i receaved for that year and a half? $178.00 that was it. and even then i had to find the pay roster that i had singed and add up all the weeks and months that i had singed in and then go too my local MPP and have him fight to get it from DND. and to this day i still can't get a hold of my millitary records from Ottawa all i have to show for it is an hounorable discharge from the Canadian Forces.
oh and for thouse of you who would like to know who my CO was at the time that fought so hard to keep me in the Reserves his name is col.ralph west from the E&K SCOTISH REGIMENT in chatham,Ontario
so like i said i wish ya all the best of luck on your endevors trying to get in as a CIC?
If you do and i realy hope you do! you'll be one of a few that ever managed to get in as a CIC with a medical problem.
p.s. i am sorry if i have offended any CF members that was not my intent i was mearly trying state what had happened to me when i went to rejoin my unit after a certain CI rewend my chances of ever haveing military carer again!


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## tree hugger

Has anyone successfully challenged the universality of service principle?  DMCARM says that I do not meet the universality of service however, myself, my doctor and an army orthopedic specialist all agree that I can perform all tasks on the generic task statement.  They are releasing me under item 3b.  I just wrote a memo to DMCARM asking to challenge the universality of service.  Am I fooling my self into thinking they will actually test me?


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## tree hugger

Anyone know anything on this one?


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## Gunner98

You may be asked to prove that you can physically meet all of the tasks (by actually doing them) under the supervision of Subject Matter Experts and a Medical Officer, that is a costly, but only successful way to settle the debate between Med Stds, DMCARM, you and your advisors.  There has been some discussion within the CFHS community to establish testing centres - the costs have been prohibitive. Opinions and consistent standards do not balance, if others have been released because of the same condition you have, then you will be released.


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## tree hugger

So I would have a chance to perform the GTS activities? Are you saying that I'd have to pay to be tested?  Are there currently any locations that provide the testing?


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## tree hugger

Thought I'd give anyone who cared about an update.  I had requested to challange the GTS, but the request was denied.  I have since passed my express test, but was still released.  Right before my release, I submitted a ROG requesting the PCAT/TCAT system be reviewed (I was never given a TCAT), asked to have the U of S/GTS be reviewed and amended to allow members to challenge it, and I asked the the decision to release me altogether be undone and requested a transfer to the naval reserves.  I'm really not expecting much to happen out of this ROG, but it sure did feel good to get it all down on paper.  I had to go through several versions eventually curbing my sarcasm and vocabulary.....we'll see.


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## geo

Tree Hugger,
It is evident that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The Redress system does work..... (most of the time)... The redress will be passed up, it will be analyzed based of facts, laws and regulations AND a decision will be made. It will be transmitted to you.... at that time it is your right to indicate your dissagreement with the decision made (based on facts) and you can ask that the redress be sent up to a higher authority... 

Have you thought of contacting "the centre"? (even while Redress is underway)
There are some pretty dedicated people over there that have all the resources of the CF at their fingertips and their job is to look after you.

Good luck

Cheers!


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## tree hugger

Time to revive this old thread!

My story is on this and a couple other threads of similar topics, but I'll update this one.  I submitted my grievance Oct 2005 and today (18 Jan 2007)I recieved my disclosure package from DMCARM ref my ROG.  I won't even complain on this lengthy process - I just don't have it in me.

Bottom line:  DMCARM's recommendations include my re-enrollment in the Regular or Reserve forces as a LogO (air or navy).  Needless to say I'm estatic!  I can't believe this has worked out, and that the system can work - I had been joking that the reason DMCARM was taking so long is that they were searching for some way to reject my ROG!  So if anyone from DMCARM visits this site, I'm sorry!

I had a lot of people in my corner on this one -several of my doctors, a couple of my CO's, my favorite Maj., my case manager, family, friends, Army.ca members etc.etc.  What a difference a good support system can make!

I'll choose to go Navy reserve - I was in the reserves before I went ROTP.

What a great day!


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## geo

tree hugger....
keep this in your back pocket until all the paperwork has been done but, if you were pert well hustled out of your unit with a 3B and weren't allowed to train for a long time, it may be possible that you are entitled to the Class A days you would have received had you been permitted to train.


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## tree hugger

My Mom also asked about back pay... would be nice and I sure could use it, but like alot of us - it's not about the money.

My happy dance was rusty but effective.


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## tree hugger

It's "officially" official!  Got the letter from DMCARM - I'm back in.  They said I can re-enroll anythime between today and May 2007.  He is also instructing DMCARM 5b (whomever they are...) to communicate with CFRG to "initiate the process of (my) redirected re-enrollment".

I had already been in contact with HMCS York so they've already sent for my VFS.  It's kind of scary that after waiting so long, I could be back in in a couple of months....

Whoop!!


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## geo

Good for you - am glad things worked out.

I am still of an opinion that you should ask DMCARM about all those class A parades that you were prevented from attending... +/- 37.5 mandays per year is the basic budget per individual...  A lot will depend on what the decision will say and what your last CO is willing to vouch for.


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