# Why join the Canadian Armed Forces



## dannybou (27 May 2004)

These figures are taken from an article in Le Journal de Montréal a few weekends ago:

Recruit: $26,616 - $39,096
Corporal: $44,736
Master/Corporal: $44,736 - $57,048
Sergeant: $51,384 - $60,888
Warrant Officer: $57,252 - $64,452
Master Warrant Officer $63,180 - $68,772
Chief Warrant Officer: $70,128 - $73,068

Lieutenant: $43,176 - $74,436
Captain: $59,412 - $78,852
Major: $80,652 - $90,420
Lt Col: $93,492 - $99,492
Colonel: $86,100 - $101,300

I won‘t go into our Generals salaries. Plus there are all sorts of moneytary incentives for submarine service, overseas missions, specialist etc.

The point of this thread? Why is it that Canada has so many young people on welfare? The Canadian Armed Forces are running adds for recruiting, offering bonuses to join. There are numerous trades, technical, they even pay for University as long as you serve. Why aren‘t more people taking these advantages? I did 24 years ago and have never regretted it. Heck, that‘s where I met my wife. So I would like to hear from the youngsters of this Country? Look at the salaries? Wouldn‘t it be better for the future? Learning a trade, belonging to an organization? Participating in overseas missions?


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## wongskc (27 May 2004)

Well, all throughout high school, whenever I mentioned that I was thinking of a military career, the automatic knee jerk reaction was "What? You‘re gonna get killed!"  As I graduated then moved on to post secondary, the usual comments then became the sterotypical "What‘s a matter, can‘t think for yourself?" and (courtesy of my Aunt) "You‘ll get sent to Afghanistan before you even finish your degree!"

My own parents told me I would be wasting my summer until I told them that the reserves actually pays    !  Yes, they thought that the army doesn‘t pay its troops.

So basically summing it up, I‘d have to say the reason why no one takes advantage of what the military has to offer is because of pure ignorance.  They are not aware that it can offer a great career and decent pay and they automatically disregard any notion of even considering it.


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## Pieman (27 May 2004)

This is a really nice question, and I will add my two cents to it at it as best I can:

As a recent graduate, I have put my application in as an officer. Money is not the insentive for me at all, as I already make a comparable amount in my new job. I am looking for a major challenge, and I think the forces will do it. But I am not within the majority of people.

What would be stopping a lot of people? From speaking to many people, close freinds, and family about the CF, I believe it is this:

1) The Canadian Forces are underfunded. Notice I have this as the number one reason. It is well known we have out dated equipment and funding problems. If you are young and ambitious, this does not look like a good option for someone trying to climb high in their career. I think there is a growing beleif that the CF is not able to ‘handle it‘s own‘ anymore. Also, there is a fear that many people have that some of the equipment is unsafe. I had more than one person say to me: ‘Sea Kings are flying coffins‘. 


2) People do not understand what the forces are, and are in general undereducated about them. They have the impression that it is too difficult and a hard life, and they think of the movie ‘Full Metal Jacket‘ when they think of life in the Army. Yes, the Army is no picknick and is not easy, but it is still a bad impression to be walking around with. 

3) The recruiting process is a MAJOR turn off. I believe it takes a lot of thinking and building up nerves to come to the decision: ‘Yes, I am going to do this. I will apply‘. Then you go to the recruiting center and apply and you are facing 3 months - 2 YEARS waiting time to get in. Man, that was a big slap in the face for me. And I already feel disrepected by the government for making me wait so long after I made a very hard decision to serve my country. I believe someone quoted they lose 30% of applicants due to waiting times on this forum numerous times.

I am sure there are many more reasons, but my guess is that these three are the big ones that most people have.


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2004)

Unfortinuatly when people take the first step to joining the military they are jerked around by the recruiting department.  Can you imagine how many people have been overlooked, forgotten about or simply given up because of all the hassel? If our recruiting area was more effective we would have many many more soldiers in the army today.


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## Marauder (27 May 2004)

Most of the sheeple in this country that have grown to recruiting age in the last decade have been kept fat, lazy, and stupid by the Liebral hegemony. Why join the big scary army and WORK for a living when you can just sit around your squalid little apartment and have the government pay for your rent, alcohol, cigs, and drug of choice. The Liebrals have made it too easy to be a simple money sponge with no responsibility for going out and getting an actual job, let alone be a productive citizen.


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## Harris (27 May 2004)

The recruiting center has been an issue for the 17 years I‘ve been in.  Everybody complains yet nothing is done.  In my opinion the majority (not all) of people in the recruiting centre are there not because they love doing recruiting but because they are recovering form a long term injury, are a Reservist (like myself) on a Class B job and the $ is good, or have been put there to keep them out of trouble.  If there is someone from the recruiting system that can correct my thinking I‘d love to hear from you.  The latest bit of empire building I heard about the recruiting centre is that they have developed an electronic version of the test everyone writes, yet there has to be a recruiting centre staffer there when people do it.  Why is that needed?  Just about every Unit I‘m aware of has a recruiting Officer/NCO.  Why not train them to administer the test?

On a plus side, I also heard that Units are now allowed to conditionally enroll new members.  That means some of the requirements can be sorted out after the fact and if the member is found lacking they can get the boot.  That also means that Units can get people on course sooner.


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## Infanteer (27 May 2004)

> The recruiting center has been an issue for the 17 years I‘ve been in. Everybody complains yet nothing is done. In my opinion the majority (not all) of people in the recruiting centre are there not because they love doing recruiting but because they are recovering form a long term injury, are a Reservist (like myself) on a Class B job and the $ is good, or have been put there to keep them out of trouble. If there is someone from the recruiting system that can correct my thinking I‘d love to hear from you. The latest bit of empire building I heard about the recruiting centre is that they have developed an electronic version of the test everyone writes, yet there has to be a recruiting centre staffer there when people do it. Why is that needed? Just about every Unit I‘m aware of has a recruiting Officer/NCO. Why not train them to administer the test?


I‘ve raised this issue before.  Solution; make it part of career progression, thus inviting the best junior officers and NCO‘s who are encouraged to excel.


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## Pieman (27 May 2004)

> Most of the sheeple in this country that have grown to recruiting age in the last decade have been kept fat, lazy, and stupid by the Liebral hegemony.


Lol. I am not sure you can blaim that one on the Liberals. I would blaim that one on  Nintendo.    



> The recruiting center has been an issue for the 17 years I‘ve been in. Everybody complains yet nothing is done.


Does anyone have an idea why that is? From the outside looking in, it seems really bizzare that everyone agrees the system needs to be changed, yet no one seems to be capable of changing it. It seems like a pretty easy thing to fix. Does anyone know who is in charge of recruiting? (Or is anyone really in charge?) At this point, I would really love to write that person.


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## Gayson (27 May 2004)

It took me 18 months to get in with various delays including lost paperwork.

Also many people ask me if I get payed in the militia, it seems that people have many bad misconceptions on the army.  I find this sad because the army is the first job I have ever had that does not feel like "work".

I think part of the problem is in the lack of the use of media as a recruitment process.  The latest recruitment video shows a bunch of random **** than the slogan "Strong Proud".  The problem here is that information available to the public for easy access is just too vague.

If the CF wants to get more people to apply and get more support from the public than they should use popular media to spread the word.

When I see the TV commercials for the Army they should be displaying some of the cooler jobs available, everything from Armor, Engineering, Infantry all the way to being a sniper or JTF.  Also a single Generic Phone number needs to be displayed where someone could call it and have tons of information available via a person to talk to or a ring tone menu.  When someone calls this number they should be able to get information on pay, jobs and info on all the local units near them and the jobs they offer.

Many of the benefits of the army were unknown to me until after I joined and put a little time in.  Things like the carry over pay from the day being dp2 qualified to promotion to corporal (recieved on promotion), the educational assistance, all the bonus pays.  When I actually learned about this stuff my jaw hit the floor, and when I tell some of my civy buddies about them they are amazed too.

The CF needs to start showing the public how much fun and rewarding the military really is.


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## Da_man (27 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Harris:
> [qb] The latest bit of empire building I heard about the recruiting centre is that they have developed an electronic version of the test everyone writes, yet there has to be a recruiting centre staffer there when people do it.  Why is that needed?  Just about every Unit I‘m aware of has a recruiting Officer/NCO.  Why not train them to administer the test?
> [/qb]


yeah i did c CFAT on a computer... there was no one in the room, but there was one of these "mirrors"


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## Yes Man (27 May 2004)

I think pieman pretty much got it right.

People look at the Canadian army as a joke.  No one I know wants to try and make a career of it.

Also this recruiting process is such a pain I am in amazed that people actually will go through it.  If it where anyone else but the army put me through this much aggravation, I would tell them to go **** themselves.


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## R031button (27 May 2004)

I have to agree with Yes Man, I‘m a senior in highschool, and everyone I know looks at the forces a joke, only a very small percentage every join, and most are fairly ignorant of all the benifits available. 

  The recruiting process is also a pain, and it‘s made worse by the amount of trouble it takes to get to even speak to a recruiter, however thought up the idea that recruiting detachments should only be open from 8:00am to 4:00 pm should be dragged to an alley and shot. It‘s impossible to contact someone in that time frame if your a student or if your working. Also, there are very few recruiters available to speak too, all of three in British Columbia, which works out to a little less then one recruiter per million people. 

  Once you‘ve actually gone through the waiting process of your application you then have to basicly twiddle your thumbs untill you get accepted into a regiment. In the reserves this means waiting to get sworn in, which is usually at least four or five months. Once your officially a member, you then go throught he great ordeal of getting kit. I don‘t know about other brigades, but in the 39th the policy is that the regimental QM can no longer issue recruits with their first batch of kits, it has to come from the area support unit in Chillawak. And this can take a long time, I can testify to that. I joined up in april, and I have yet to be issued a single piece of kit, I go to course in a month and a bit. To make it even better, the RMRang stand down in a week.

  This is why people don‘t join the forces, it‘s simply to much hassle, our unit has already had four recruits drop out, to my knowledge. And to be perfectly honest i don‘t blame them, it‘s hard to stay motivated when you can‘t go on the ex your preping for because none of your kit has came in yet, and to be honest, if I had known it would be like this, I‘m not sure if I‘d have joined up.


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## CDNBlackhawk (27 May 2004)

I started my application Last July, My file went to Borden 5 weeks ago(should have been sent 10 weeks) and i still havent been called yet. The procces for getting in is completly rediculous and Unorganized, one place doesnt know what the other place is doing or saying. Half the time the Recruitment staff seems like they are confused. Not all of them, but the majority of the ones i have dealt with are.

it needs to be changed hands down, I am getting fed up.


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## Yes Man (27 May 2004)

I think its funny, because the first post in this thread says that joining the forces would be a great way to get people from going on welfare; most people would die of starvation before their file gets processed.


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## McLean (29 May 2004)

I‘m 19 years old, and I‘ll be joining soon, and I can tell you the various responses I usually get from friends when I ask them if they‘ve ever considered joining.

The most common response is that they‘re unwilling to commit themselves to something as demanding as the CF. They don‘t mind working hard, as long as they get to come home at 4:00 every day and kick back with a beer and a joint. People‘s priorities kind of scare me, to tell you the truth. I hate to say this, especially since I‘m talking about my own friends here, but they‘re all pretty dead set against having to work harder than anyone else. It seems to be a pretty common mentality, "well this guy doesn‘t work very hard, why the **** should I?"

Surprisingly, there are a couple of them who are just terrified by the idea of basic training. They see movies like Full Metal Jacket and assume that BMQ is about totally destroying and humiliating them. They all think they‘ll be under the iron fist of MWO. R. Lee Ermey for the entire course.

I guess what it boils down to is a combination of laziness and ignorance. I should add that this is by no means a universal attitude, I‘ve got a couple friends who are as enthusiastic about joining as I am, and there are lots of other young people on these boards who feel the same way. I guess there‘s hope for us punks after all


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## atticus (29 May 2004)

> When I see the TV commercials for the Army they should be displaying some of the cooler jobs available, everything from Armor, Engineering, Infantry all the way to being a sniper or JTF.  Also a single Generic Phone number needs to be displayed where someone could call it and have tons of information available via a person to talk to or a ring tone menu. [/QB]


I agree. Just look at the USA‘s recruiting video‘s. They show all the cool stuff like climbing a mountain and blowing stuff up. If the army showed stuff like snipers and infantry and the such then it would spark an interest in younger people. Yeah, there would be a few that would think that it would be a piece of cake to become a JTF2 space ninja with laser beams comming from their eyes but isn‘t the training for weeding those people out?


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## Spr.Earl (29 May 2004)

It‘s a choice of life style.
You‘re choice so don‘t *****.


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## Goober (29 May 2004)

The Army needs to spend money on an experienced director to make the promo videos. The ones they have now are "ok" at best.

The US knows how to run recruitment campaigns, I think the Canadians need to make thier own spins on some of thier ideas. Wouldn‘t hurt to come up with some of thier own too. Perhaps some show of military might in or near some major cities.


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## wongskc (29 May 2004)

I bet that the CF could get make their own recruiting ads that are 50X better instead of having to contract it out to advertising companies that have liberals in their pockets.


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## Goober (29 May 2004)

I‘m not talking about any advertising companies, I‘m talking about accomplished directors of film.


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## Spr.Earl (29 May 2004)

Those who are trying to join have seen to many Hollywood Movies but when they join Youzerrr
What a wake up!!   

It‘s a life style that is hard but rewarding even though you don‘t have any gong‘s on your breast.

I joined our Militia in 76 and still serving.
When I joined if you argued you whent out back of the shack‘s and proved your mettle!!
In those day‘s we had Snr. Sapper‘s then Cpl. etc.
I‘ll shut me gob for now but will say you young‘ns have easy today from what I went through.


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## Old Cent Hand (29 May 2004)

Sapper Earl, I agree! I joined because I wanted to be a soldier. The Military is rewarding, and a person can accomplish alot , you don‘t need the " Gongs",( The Away From Home, or Showed Up and Got the T-Shirt" Medals),to prove one‘s service. When I went overseas , I went because it was my " JOB". As for the " Gongs" , it took me years to get them mounted , they normally sat in my dresser drawer.The money wasn‘t part of the equation. When I listen to some of these guys talking about going to Afghanistan, it‘s like they won the lottery, MONEY , MONEY. The sad thing is , is that 6 months, to a year after their tour, they are more " broke" , than before they went.


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## Slim (29 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Old Cent‘ Hand:
> [qb] As for the " Gongs" , it took me years to get them mounted , they normally sat in my dresser drawer. [/qb]


Ole‘Cent Hand

I think it was Mr Miagi from the Karate Kid who said " What‘s inside you makes you brave, a medal just means that you were lucky" (or words to that effect).

I have several gold shooting medals, a plaque and a trophy...None are currently on display, I know what they mean to me, that‘s all that matters.

Cheers

Slim


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## Rick_Donald (29 May 2004)

I joined up in 83 right out of high school. The money as **** but that was moot at the time. Those years were the best of my life. In those 4 years I served I did 2 tours of Cyprus, participated on the RCR rifle team (a whole summer of shooting off massive amounts of ammo)
and jumped out of airplanes and helicopters. And they paid me to do this!
When I got out doors flew open for me.I wasn‘t out one week and had a three job offeres.
If I had of stayed in today I would be making the same or more (with incentives) than I make now and I would still be shooting and looting and jumping instead of punching a clock at a steel mill.


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## Fraser.g (29 May 2004)

Just as a piece of UFI, The USA spends one million dollars a day on recruiting. 
They have the bucks so they get the snazzy ads. On top of this every one in Nrth Aerica knows about the GI Bill for education etc.

If we want the goods we have to advertise.

My two cents


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## Harrier101 (30 May 2004)

I am a little dissapointed by some of the post's. Is the recruiting process that bad? Will it take that long? I am looking toward a tech trade in the Airforce. I am giving up a civvy job in order to learn something more in depth that I cannot afford to learn about on civvy street. That is not the only reson I am joing, there are lot's of others.
But all the same, this is a little discouraging. Are their any positive experiances with joining?


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## Iwannabeasoldier (30 May 2004)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> It took me 18 months to get in with various delays including lost paperwork.
> 
> Also many people ask me if I get payed in the militia, it seems that people have many bad misconceptions on the army.   I find this sad because the army is the first job I have ever had that does not feel like "work".
> 
> ...



I gotta agree finding information about the CF is impossible, even through my recruting office they are extreamly vagua and seem unwilling to work with me in choosing the proper career.....I didn't know that it could possibly take me 2 years to get excepted either that is very discouraging, I hope it is much faster than that for me.


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## Iwannabeasoldier (31 May 2004)

Pieman said:
			
		

> This is a really nice question, and I will add my two cents to it at it as best I can:
> 
> As a recent graduate, I have put my application in as an officer. Money is not the insentive for me at all, as I already make a comparable amount in my new job. I am looking for a major challenge, and I think the forces will do it. But I am not within the majority of people.
> 
> ...



I feel that some of this information should be passed on to our local MP's we can't change these sort of problems unless we make them noticed by our goverment.  so Please if you have issue's like these make people aware of it. we may not be able to change the problems we are facing right now. but we can change them for the future recrutes of the CF.


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## Iwannabeasoldier (31 May 2004)

With so many issues in the recruiting process, I think we should be notifying the right people, there is no reason for process to take 2 years.  I think we should notifying our local and provincial MP's about these problems. As well as the premiers need to see that we are making a big decision and commitment and that the CF needs to respect that and work just as hard to process our applications and help us get on our way.  So I urge you to make these issues public we may not be able to change things for ourselves but we can change them for the future recruits of the CF.


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## 63 Delta (31 May 2004)

Hey, did anyone ever see that show on A&E "Uncle Sam Wants You!"? It was on, on Saturday. It was a documentary on a Marine recruiting center. Very intresting. They have a Mission Goal that they set out to achieve. 15 contracts in 30 days. Thats tested for medical, aptitude and signing of contract. They have to phone 50 people each everyday, all the local graduating senior at the local high school. They also walk the streets looking for potential marines.  In the Marines its a requirement that you have at least a grade 12 education, or be in the process of completing your education. The marines in the documentary where treated almost like customers, and where sworn into the marines in less than a week. I believe it only took about one month to actually ship off to Paris Island, but I'm not positive. Point is the Marines know how to get new recruits and keep them intrested. They get shit kicked if they don't meet there mission goal. The recruiters out here seem to not even give a flyin f*** if they sign you up or not. Why would they, they get paid either way right?


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## Pieman (1 Jun 2004)

> I think we should notifying our local and provincial MP's about these problems.


Yes. That is a good idea and please do contact your MP. I already did that myself and the responce was to the effect: 'Yes, there are major problems. Until there is a change of government, there is not much that can be done.' The reality is, this has to become part of the military election issue if we want change. That means a lot of us have to write in.

Second, I am starting to wonder if these problems are stemmed from internal issues. Not all the CF problems are the direct result of too little money from the government. Why is the CF recruiting process so bureaucratic and slow? I think this is an internal problem and it appears that the problem could be solved internally. 

Who is in charge of the CF Recruiting? I want to write him/her. I tried to locate that person on the CF websight, but no luck.



> Point is the Marines know how to get new recruits and keep them intrested. They get crap kicked if they don't meet there mission goal. The recruiters out here seem to not even give a flying f*** if they sign you up or not. Why would they, they get paid either way right?



Not so sure that is a great way to recruit people in my opinion. A number of years ago, I read an article about when the 'Top Gun' movie came out.  (I am not 100% sure if the article was really true, but it is a good illustration anyway)  People would walk out of that movie all excited and thinking, 'Dude! I want to fly a jet!' And lo and behold, there was an Airforce recruiter standing just outside the movie theater ready to sign you up.   Poor suckers who signed up probably regret that spur of the moment decision.

I think that a person should not be in the CF unless they are there for the right reasons, like in any career.


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## Iwannabeasoldier (1 Jun 2004)

Pieman said:
			
		

> > .   Poor suckers who signed up probably regret that spur of the moment decision.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, I believe everyone should be a required  either before or after college to  serve thier country.  I think any excuse for a person to join is a great thing.  that person is probably thrilled that they saw top gun because thier   probably much better off from serving thier country. Not only does the CF disapline you to be a controlled and perductive citizen but it teaches you things that you would never learn or even fathem of learning as a civillian.


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## Pieman (1 Jun 2004)

> , I believe everyone should be a required   either before or after college to   serve ththeirountry.



I totally disagree with that. Forcing someone to do anything, including server their country, is not a good thing. Think of it in terms of quality of the soldier. Would you rather have an army built of people who are dedicated to their country and want to be there? Or do you want to force a bunch of people who do not want to go, make them serve 1-2 years. The whole time they will just be waiting for that day so they can leave and move on with their life. I have spoken with many people in countries (Spain, Greece, China) who had been forced to serve for a period of time. Most of them hated it, and it was looked at as a negative thing to have to do. it sounds like the quality of the armies really suffer as only a small percentage of the people are career.  I believe someone on this forum said: You cannot force the love of country and sense of duty down someone's throat. Simply put, the military is not for everyone.   

My two cents on the topic. Anyway, do a search, i think this topic was covered on a another thread.


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## Infanteer (1 Jun 2004)

Pieman's right.  How motivated is some conscript going to be?  I sure wouldn't want him in my trench.

Heinlein said you can't force feed someone responsibility.


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## Sheerin (1 Jun 2004)

> Lieutenant: $43,176 - $74,436
> Captain: $59,412 - $78,852
> Major: $80,652 - $90,420
> Lt Col: $93,492 - $99,492
> Colonel: $86,100 - $101,300



Why is it that the "starting" salary of a colonel is less than the "starting" one for a Lt. col?  Or is that a typo?


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## dannybou (2 Jun 2004)

Sheerin said:
			
		

> > Lieutenant: $43,176 - $74,436
> > Captain: $59,412 - $78,852
> > Major: $80,652 - $90,420
> > Lt Col: $93,492 - $99,492
> ...



Not a typo. I would venture a guess: Years of service?


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## ZipperHead (2 Jun 2004)

First off, the salaries shown in the first post aren't neccesarily correct. Those include Specialist Pay levels 1 & 2, where applicable. I know this, as a Incentive 4 MCpl (not a specialist) does not make more than a Basic Sgt (wouldn't make much sense, would it???)

Secondly, people need to realize that in the post 9/11 era, they have to be selective in who they recruit (ie. background checks). It took me over a year to get my Secret security clearance paperwork back (well after I was out of the job that I needed it for.... don't get excited, it seems like everybody has Secret security clearance now). It took over 6 months for me to get a new ID card, as they are backed up in Ottawa with all the ID cards (or so I've been told). I think if people could walk in off the street and be in the CF in the week, we would have a lot of undesirable types (more so than we already have.....) in uniform. Waiting makes it more worthwhile, and gives you a chance to back out if you realize you made a mistake. When I joined ('88), once I finally did the interview and medical (they lost my paperwork twice), I was in Cornwallis (recruit school) within 5 weeks (if memory serves). I had been in cadets for 5 years, so I more or less knew it was my density.  

For all the examples you have about the US style of recruiting, look at their retention rate. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm willing to bet a shiny Loonie that it's less than ours. Why? They sucker you in with all the jazzy, glossy, MTV style ads, and high-pressure recruiting process (I've heard of fights breaking out amongst Army, marine, Navy and Air Force recruiters over potential recruits...). I think our recruiting ads are somewhat lame, and target ***certain*** groups of people, but they focus on showing what is done in the CF, not wishful thinking stuff. 

If people are put off, so be it. There are problems aplenty with the recruiting system, but that doesn't address other issues, such as the quality of individuals coming in (face it: you ARE going to get lied to by the recruiter. They need warm bodies filling the ranks, and most sensible people would run away screaming if they were told the truth). I personally think that the CF should encourage more people to join the cadet system and the Reserves. At least those people have more of a schmick about they are getting themselves into, without the initial 3 year commitment. Yes, it sucks for the Reserves to train a guy/gal and then lose them to the Reg's, but that's really too bad, as the Reg's have priority. All the money  comes from the same place (taxpayers) and they are the ones that deserve the best quality soldiers that we can produce. The cadet organization is an excellent place for young people to get an indoctrination into what it means to serve one's country, and the government should throw more money that way (I will encourage my children to join cadets when they are old enough, if there is still a cadet program in Canada by then....). 

I think that the Canadian people need to get a clearer idea of what the CF does, and the CF, to their credit, have done better over the last few years of doing that, than when I was young. Some people have huge misconceptions about the CF (we don't pay taxes, we get paid poorly, we live in barracks for our whole career, etc). The CF should do up a nice shiny pamphlet, and throw it in every major (and minor) newspaper, dispelling those misconceptions. But what do I know?? Spend the money on someone who doesn't have a clue, then ends up hating it, and getting out in 3 years. I haven't seen that before.......

Anyway, for you young 'uns, keep the faith. The light at the end of the tunnel is a lot closer than you think, and before you know it, you'll be saying "Where the heck did that 20 (or 25) years go?!?!!?".


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## Pieman (4 Jun 2004)

Allen Luomala,

Nice post. I understand   much of what you are saying. but there are a few points I want to go over:

Yes, the security clearance is a very important part of the selection process. However, if I am correct, it normally does not take that long for most applicants. During recruiting, you get a Enhanced level clearance, which for a normal person only takes a month or two. The higher lever clearances are done later. This is not what is slowing down most applications that much.   What is slowing down applications seems to be a combination of things, medical processing, etc. etc. Minor glitches in your application, turn into major problems and slow things to a snails pace.

I don't think that the long wait in the recruiting process is going to keep out people who should not be there. In fact, it may have the opposite effect. i.e. A person who is capable and who has potential is going to have multiple opportunities. Do you really expect a young ambitious person to wait around? People take on major commitments shortly after finishing high school or university. If you want their commitment to the CF, then I think the CF has to respond within a reasonable amount of time. I am willing to bet that a certain percentage of the ones left have no where else to go, because they are screw ups in everything else. These are the people you don't want in the CF.

I don't think we should be aiming for an American style recruiting at all. I think we should aim for a British recruiting system (which i have a basic understanding of)   I am aware of the officer application process and you have to first meet with a unit commander and get their support. Then you meet with TWO other boards for   more interviews. You also have to do some rigorous physical tests, run, obstacle course etc. The who process takes at least three months, and there is plenty of opportunity to weed out people who are not good. This is done in a reasonable amount of time and it is plenty of exposure of the military during the application process. I would guess that quality of the person coming in would be good, and the retention rate would be higher. Are there going to be people who regret joining and hate it? sure! But I am willing to bet the amount would be lower. (BTW, i was searching of actual statistics on retention rates of different countries, but could only find some vague stats on US army. Anyone know of a source?)

I understand your point on the Cadets as being a good intro to Military life. I wish I had done it when I was younger, but I was way 'too cool' for that kind of thing. When I was growing up, Cadets had the unfortunate reputation of being something for kids with 'dicipline' problems. True or not, that is what I understood it to be back then. I did not develop a strong interest in the military until shortly before finishing University. That being said, I don't think you should rely too heavily on people joining Cadets as an intro to CF life. People will aquire an interest in the forces at different points in their life.  I do agree that more money should be put into Cadets, it appears to be a great system.

As for a person to join reserves for a while first. That is a nice idea. Mind you, from what I understand, the transfer from the Reserves to Regular is a major undertaking, and is almost as difficult as getting into the forces in the first place. Maybe if that system was improved too, then more people would do that. Or is that what the CF does not want to happen?


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