# Semi serious question (STAT)



## medkir (11 Mar 2004)

I‘m on my 3rd term of taking a steriod to help me gain muscle mass and extra weight. I‘m three weeks in on my 4 week cycle. I‘ve been ordering it from the US (because it cheaper) , but when talking with my own doctor over the last week, learned that the particular supplement I‘m taking happens to be banned as of recently in Canada. 

I completed my application and have my references back now, and was going to bring it in tommorow. Now that I know that the stuff I‘m taking is illegal, I‘m going to start lowering the dose until I can quit. How long after I hand in my application would I be called in for my medical / fitness exam? ( I need to know, because if this stuff is illegal, I don‘t want this to hold me back from being accepted, so I want to make sure my blood / urine tests (if they apply) are clean ).
[in case your wondering what I‘m taking is called m1t]  
thanks


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## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2004)

The call could come days, weeks or months after you start the process with the CFRC. If you‘re worried about it talk to you doctor about how long it will take you to get off the drugs and to be clean before you submit your application. 

It may or may not be something that the standards tests are designed to detect. Only the CFRC can answer that for you.


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## medkir (11 Mar 2004)

I took this to become stronger and try to lower my bodyfat percentage...I was 119 pounds when I started it, I‘m now 134, and my bodyfat percent has dropped from 23% to 11%. If i had known that it was illegal, I would have avoided it completely.... figures if its too good to be true, it usually has a legal drawback of sorts


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## cathtaylor (11 Mar 2004)

Anabolic steroids are one of the worst things you can do to your body. But I‘m sure everyone has been playing "mom" and telling you that.  This WILL be detected in your urine test. Depending on the chemical composition it could take months to deplete. (Nicotine is detected in saliva after 6 weeks!)  As Michael has said, the CFRC will answer that for you. So wean yourself off now, protect your heart, not to mention certain "muscles" or "organs" that will shrink as a result of the steroid use.   The only safe way to gain muscle mass is by hard and true physical work and lots of good ole egg whites for protein.
I wish you much luck.


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## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2004)

Are there steroids that are legal within the military, or are they all frowned upon? Reason Im asking is i know someone in the army who is taking them, and Id love to know whether what he‘s doing is legal or not.


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## 1feral1 (11 Mar 2004)

Zero tolerance for drugs - full stop! Obviously your ‘friend‘ has not respect for the law, mil law, and his career.

If he cant develop his body on his own, as no pain, no gain, he is as false as the drugs.

However if he likes, sores on his back, being irratated, short tempered, having a shrinking penis, and heart problems at a later age, tell him to keep taking them.


Regards,

Wes


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## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2004)

yah, its what i figured. He‘s been told MANY times but is way to ignorant to even think he‘ll get caught. Geuss he‘ll just learn the hard way.


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## cathtaylor (11 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb]
> However if he likes, sores on his back, being irratated, short tempered, having a shrinking penis, and heart problems at a later age, tell him to keep taking them.
> 
> [/qb]


Pfft...bwahahahahaha..  :dontpanic:  Good one, Wes.


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## nULL (12 Mar 2004)

yeah, you know your testicles will shrink right? i believe it has to do with the fact they are not "needed" anymore, or something like that.

just goto the gym and suffer with everyone else, chances are all the thin guys will be looking at you with envy anyways. meaty *******.


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## Thompson_JM (12 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Sh0rtbUs:
> [qb] yah, its what i figured. He‘s been told MANY times but is way to ignorant to even think he‘ll get caught. Geuss he‘ll just learn the hard way. [/qb]


Could someone remind me of the legal obligation members of the CF Reg and PRes have to report wrongdoing?

I know that we are obligated under military law to report harrasment, but with something such as this. would shortbus be obligated under military law to have to report something like this? not that im trying to wreck a freindship, or destroy a career.  but i do know that if you see harrasment, ignore it, and then someone else reports it, you are now also liable to be disciplined, for not acting...

anyways, if someone could clarify. Brneil. this one is probabbly right up your alley since youre JAG


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## bossi (12 Mar 2004)

I haven‘t got my copy of QR&O‘s handy, but I remember there‘s a beautiful one that basically says "errors of omission" are chargeable offences, too (i.e. "turning a blind eye" to another service offence is a no-no).

Now, as far as harassment goes - the last time I taught the lecture on a QL2/QL3, I seem to remember that the first step is to tell the offending individual that their behaviour is wrong and will not be tolerated (i.e. instead of "running to Mommy" every time there‘s harassment, individuals are encouraged to resolve this at the lowest possible level - recipient to harasser directly, or with the assistance of peers).  But, I could be wrong ...


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## Yes Man (12 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb] Zero tolerance for drugs - full stop! Obviously your ‘friend‘ has not respect for the law, mil law, and his career.
> [/qb]


Is there zero tolerance for all drugs or just illegal drugs, because there are many forms of steroids and other 'drugs' that are legal in Canada?


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## combat_medic (12 Mar 2004)

Yes Man: Anabolic, or "performance enhancing" steroids are illegal in Canada across the board. They‘re available by prescription for people in serious medical need (such as hormone replacement therapy), but cannot be bought over the counter legally. Just like morphine, which is a controlled subtance, but can be obtained illegally and abused. 

Steroids will often be detectable in your system up to a year after you stopped taking them. Some of the side effects include:

Physical side-effects:

* Persistent headaches, nosebleeds and stomach aches
* Severe acne on face and body
* Hair loss
* Breast enlargement
* Shrunken testicles and lowered sperm count, which may lead to sterility and impotence
* Damage to liver and kidneys
* High blood pressure and increased cholesterol levels, which may lead to heart disease
* Premature fusion of the long bones, which may lead to stunted growth

Psychological side-effects:

* increased aggressiveness and bursts of anger, also known as "Roid rage"
* frequent and severe mood swings
* paranoia, sometimes leading to violence

All steroids are illegal (in Canada) when used without a prescription. Your friend is breaking the CF regulations, in addition to the criminal code. The only performance enhancing supplements that are legal in Canada are things like protein powder, creotene and herbal supplements. Even ephedrine is now illegal... even though you can buy it at truck stops in the US.


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## Yes Man (12 Mar 2004)

It's not my friend.
I just know that there are many accessible seroids out there, and unless things have changed many of them can be given to you by sports doctors, for non-serious medical conditions.  Back when I was swimming I know many people on all sorts of steroids (mostly puffers to help with breathing) and none of them had serious medical conditions.


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## combat_medic (12 Mar 2004)

Puffers are not an anabolic steroid, nor are they performance enhancing, although they will come through in a drug test. Not all steroids are in the same classification. The ones I‘m talking about are anabolic, derived from the testosterone hormone, which are the performance enhancing ones.


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## Yes Man (12 Mar 2004)

Puffers are performance enhancing.

But from what I understood (take it I never really paid too much attention it was none of my business) there are many athletes on anabolic steroids, as a result from over training at a young age and if I‘m not mixing things up I believe alot of them were women too.

(note I have not trained for 3 years and at this time I had not done bio yet so if I am mixing things up please correct me.)


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## combat_medic (12 Mar 2004)

Inhalers contain Corticosteroids. Corticosteroids are a group of medications that reduce or prevent inflammation by altering the actions of various cells of the immune system. They‘re used to treat asthma, sinusitis, shingles, gout, rheumatoid arthiritis and MS, among others. They‘re a synthetic version of the hormones in our body that fight inflammation. They also have adverse side effects when taken long term. They are completely different from anabolic steroids, and are not in the same classification, nor are they performance enhancing other than in reducing the inflammation.

The medical uses (prescription only) for anabolic steroids include: 
1. Weight gain for chronic nutritional deficiencies or AIDS wasting syndrome
2. Relief of bone pain accompanying osteoporosis
3. Corticosteroid-induced catabolism
4. Severe anemia
5. Hereditary angioedema
6. Metastatic breast cancer in women
7. Hormone deficiency states in males
8. to promote weight gain after surgery, trauma and serious infection 

When they are prescribed, it‘s usually as a last resort after other drug options have been exhausted, and are done in very controlled amounts for controlled amounts of time.


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## Geoff (12 Mar 2004)

Xcape - who makes the product are you using?  Some steroids are out of you‘re system very quickly while others (i.e. Deca) stick around for a long time.  Many steroids aren‘t even tested for.  My advice is to be forward about the usage but do let them know you stopped once you realized the substance was illegal.  This may keep you out for some time but lying and getting caught would keep you out for good.

Don‘t bother weaning yourself off - just quit cold turkey.  The longer you stay on the more test. suppression you will get plus the greater likelyhood of negative health effects.  Depending on the cycle (doasage, frequency) you may need to talk to you‘re doctor about something to kickstart the old testes (i..e clomid).


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## 1feral1 (12 Mar 2004)

People who are drug abusers (including steroids) are only fooling themselves.

Even if this person or friend you know is too weak minded to quit, he‘s not a man, but an addict burnt on having a fake body, and if or when (it is when) he is caught, it brings disrespect to his mates, his unit, his corps, and his defence force overall.

A waste of rations. He should turn in his kit!  Am I hardcore? About drug abuse in any Defence Force, yes!

No exceptions, mind you if I had someone approach me, who realised he had a problem, I would encourage him to quit full stop, and seek confidental assistance. If this could not be agreed to, he would be finsihed.

So, its this bloke‘s life, and if he wants to ruin it, and this includes his heath, you or no one can stop him.


Regards,

Wes


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## cathtaylor (13 Mar 2004)

Good Stuff Combat Medic!       

Comment to YesMan deleted.*smile*


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## Yes Man (13 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by CathTaylor:
> [qb] Good Stuff Combat Medic!
> 
> "Yes Man" perhaps you should have your friend look at this information from CombatMedic, himself.  Then he will be getting the facts, firsthand. [/qb]


   ?What friend?


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## winchable (13 Mar 2004)

I think you are being confused with "xcape"


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## cathtaylor (13 Mar 2004)

Oh, I apologize, really.  That‘s what you get for merely "skimming" over information.  I was so impressed by Combat Medic‘s responses and knowledge, the rest got lost in the translation.  Once again, sorry for the misjudgement.


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## Yes Man (13 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by CathTaylor:
> [qb] Oh, I apologize, really.  That‘s what you get for merely "skimming" over information.  I was so impressed by Combat Medic‘s responses and knowledge, the rest got lost in the translation.  Once again, sorry for the misjudgement.      [/qb]


I was getting worried, because that is the second time someone has says something about a friend of mine being on steriods.


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## cathtaylor (13 Mar 2004)

Yes, I see that.  We tend to be like lemmings sometime, just following suit!      Never do we want to misjudge someone.


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## brneil (13 Mar 2004)

Cpl Thompson asked for someone to comment on what obligation a member would have in the situation where a member is known to be taking an illegal substance.

My understanding is this, officially as a member of the CF you are obligated to inform the chain of command if you KNOW that an illegal activity if occuring.  Interestingly enough in all (I believe) basic courses (NCM and Officer) there are ethics components which go into situations such as this.  When I did my BOTC the basic comment was that there is an obligation and each member must make up their mind if they know all the information in order to make a claim of this nature.
There was certainly some sidestepping of the issue but I agree it is a tough one.

I believe the typical scenario in ethics lectures is as follows:

You are out with your buddies from basic or the regiment and two of them light up a joint. WHat do you do?


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

The amount of ignorance pouring out on this board is ridiculous!!

first off- shrinking balls are no longer a side effect through use of HCG injections which send signals to the testicles to grow.

Steroid testing is ridiculous expensive as when you test for them you are not testing for the drug but for "metabolytes" which are indicators of use. Its a completly seperate test from regular drug testing. The CF must have money to burn considering its about 100 bucks to test one sample. Which is why the "powerlifting leagues" are using polygraph more often.

Your kidding yourselves if you dont think the CF isnt full of steroids.

I dont do them but as a bodybuilder I have an insight into the "scene" more so than whatever you people heard on "the TV"

He is refering to a "prohormone" anyways. Which is different(albeit similar) to steroids. Odds are it wont show up in your urine test. Or blood."Odds are" With a month of "cleanup" time you‘ll be clear for sure. The test for prohormones is ridiculous complex and only at an olympian level would you be tested for it.


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

Oh on top of that. "CombatMedic" ephedrine is not illegal in canada. NOR in the US. HERBAL EPHEDRINE is illegal in the states. Ephedrine HCL is still legal there. AND if you knew about ephedrine stacking you‘d know that Ephdrine HCL is the best form.Do some research before posting.

Have a nice day.


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

As a final note. I dont believe any Soldier, Sailor or Airman should be taking steroids. This is my personal belief. Im not advocating what the kid is doing im just saying that he should be informed of the facts not hysteria.

I agree with what our friend Wesley Allen has been saying regarding steroid use.


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## Franko (14 Mar 2004)

You‘d be surprised at how much money the CF is willing to throw at a person caught using steriods.

It‘s like this troops....

If an MO did not order you to take said medication in the course of therapy, you can be charged. Cut and dry. They have done the tests before on one of my friends in the past, and convicted him. They then punted him out.

It‘s your career....do what you want.

Regards


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

Your right I would be surprised.   
Anyways we are talking about a prohormone. Undetectable. 1-testosterone only raises natural test levels. He would appear "high normal" on a test.


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

I just read my previous posts and I came accross as a complete jack ***. Sorry guys didnt mean to have that tone. Im sure your input is valued.


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## Franko (14 Mar 2004)

that‘s ok little guy....   






Regards


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

Little?? Hand me the needles....


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## Franko (14 Mar 2004)

We don‘t need to be shown a comparison of a needle to your...er...ahh...er...   






Regards


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## DogOfWar (14 Mar 2004)

ouch right in my ego.....


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## combat_medic (15 Mar 2004)

TheWetGrunt: First off, before you go around calling people ignorant, you might want to check your own posts for spelling and grammar. To do otherwise makes you look rather ignorant yourself.

Now let‘s address some points. Using anabolic steroids through IM injection will not give you shrunken testicles, but injection is not the only way to take them. They can be taken orally as tablets or capsules, or by ointment preparations rubbed into the skin. Often times the harcore users will use both injections and an oral doasge (called "stacking") in the belief that it will increase their results. The oral tablets will often give the most side effects as they are absorbed into the blood stream and cause systemic changes in the body.

As for Ephedra/Ephedrine, I apoligize if the statement was unclear. Health Canada has recalled all products containing Ephedra/ephedrine for the purposes of weight loss, exercise tolerance, bodybuilding, in addition to those products that combine Ephedra/ephedrine with caffeine or other stimulants, and these products can no longer be sold legally in Canada, and cannot be imported legally from the US.


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## Farmboy (15 Mar 2004)

Instead of steriods look into creotine, protien powders, conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), colostrum ect.


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## Geoff (15 Mar 2004)

Wetgrunt:  It should be noted that some prohormones are being treated as steroids by the RCMP.  Any substance that is a derivitave of or precursor to "androstene" (most commonly used in pro-hormones) are being interpreted as a steroid.

Combat medic :  stacking you‘re steroids (when done intelligently, lol) can dramatically increase you‘re results.  You type as if steroids are one drug when indeed there are many different types.  They all have different side effects and different levels of efficacy.  Not to be pro-steroid but if you‘re having a problem with testicular atrophy you‘ve obviously done a poor job desiging you‘re stack - clomid will solve this problem.

IMO no one under 25 should even think about doing steroids and if you can find a way to rationalize it (i.e. you‘re in the NFL and about to make millions) they should be taken under a MD‘s supervision.  Steroids can be very dangerous, especially for kids.


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## DogOfWar (16 Mar 2004)

In Canada prohormones are treated as steroids Im aware. But they are chemically different. AND not testable for  like steroids. Nice job combat medic on attacking my spelling and grammar. Going after grammar on the internet is like shooting blind people- big challenge. Anabolics through injections WILL shrink your balls if your not applying proper post/pre therapy with your cycle. SO you‘re wrong again. As far as I know MED A‘s arent well versed in anabolics so your speaking outside the realm of your knowledge. Feel free to critique my spelling/grammar as you havent a leg to stand on.( if you guys are taught about anabolics you need remedial)


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2004)

Honestly,
I don‘t know why you guys are still discussing this. Bottom line is you shouldn‘t want or use them unless prescibed by a physician (if he even would). In the military, that‘s the bottom line, and this is a military forum. There are lot‘s of impessionable young minds that visit here and someone could get in serious trouble, legal or otherwise, if they misconstrue what your saying (which is not a stretch with some here). We don‘t need "Well, I got it from the CdnArmy site" as an excuse. If you guys want to keep comparing schlongs, do it in private. Start PM‘ing each other. We don‘t want to watch.

*STAT*


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## Geoff (16 Mar 2004)

Recceguy is correct.


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## DogOfWar (16 Mar 2004)

I agree. One last time I want to point out that I dont agree with steroids AND its not worth your career.


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## brneil (16 Mar 2004)

To echo the most recent statements made here its a quick way to ruin your career to be tagged as a user of ANY illegal drug, which steroids fall under.

By the way there are a number of circumstances where even prescribed steroids can be considered illegal.


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## Gunnar (16 Mar 2004)

Prescribed steroids illegal?  Please elaborate.  I assume you mean when a MO has not prescribed them, or when they are prescribed to cover up a medical condition which would disqualify you from CF membership....but Illegal?  How so?


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## brneil (16 Mar 2004)

Unfortunately there have been numerous occasions in both Canada and the US where patient‘s have convinced their doctors to prescribe them steriods under the understanding that they were for treatment of some mystery ailment.  The reality is that if you lie to your doctor or somehow get your doctor to prescribe you steriods without proper reason you are commiting an illegal act.

Merely having a prescription for steriods does not make them legal you must also have an ailment requiring their use and in fact after treatment you are obligated to destroy any remaining product.  Simple possession of steriods does constitute a criminal offence for certain substances.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2004)

Can‘t you guys take a hint!


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## bossi (16 Mar 2004)

Hey - as long as they‘re wasting their steroid-enhanced energy and bad breath here, they‘re not cluttering up other threads ...


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## DogOfWar (16 Mar 2004)

My understanding of the CS ACT makes the purchasing and providing for sale steroids illegal while position of an amount for personal use does not...the law is written that way as to not incriminate people who use it for medicinal purposes....I could be wrong thats what Ive always been taught


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## brneil (16 Mar 2004)

My last post on the subject I‘ll try to be as clear as possible.

Steroids are ONLY legal with a doctors prescription for the legitimate treatment of a REAL medical condition. Otherwise even simple possession can be considered illegal and certainly a bar to entry into the CF.


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## Matt0304 (18 Mar 2004)

To reply to the original post, I wouldn‘t worry because a simple urine test does not check for steroids, especially pro-hormones (like andro).  To back up WetGrunt...the test is very expensive to administer, but you were a little bit off.  It costs around 300 dollars American to do a steroid test.  And don‘t go saying "well the CF will pay that blah blah" because he was reffering to the normal urine test that everyone does when joining.  They will not be checking every Joe joining the CF for the juice, especially for over 300 a pop.

Just my .02


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