# Canadian Military Prison



## CDNBlackhawk

I heard a few soldiers down in toronto at CFRC talking about Our Military prison, I was going to ask them a few questions but i our lunch break was almost up and didn't have the time.

Maybe some of you could answer some questions.

They were saying that prisoners their only get fed bread and water, also heard them say to another young recruit that it is one of the most brutal prisons in North America (not sure what they meant by that)

Also where is our Prison located and does it have a name?


thanks


----------



## Brad Sallows

Detention Barracks in Edmonton?  (Is it still there?  It's been years since I heard a story/lecture about DB.)

It's not brutal.  It's merely austere and the prisoners' time is structured and they are kept active.

"Bread and water" (aka "Punishment Diet No 1" if I was correctly informed) was never standard fare.  I have no idea whether it may still be used.  (Supplements, eg. vitamins, and medical monitoring are/were included.)


----------



## George Wallace

There is only one DB (Detention Barracks) left in Canada.   Previously there were one in Gagetown and one in Valcartier.

"Bread and Water" is an extreme punishment used only in extreme conditions.   Discipline is very strict in all accounts and it is not really a place you would like to be sentenced.   One would have to be sentenced to over 14 days Detention to be sent to the DB in EDMONTON.

It is not the worst of Military Prisons....Levenworth is probably a lot worse.   A Turkish prison would be even worse.

GW


----------



## Coyote43D

They built a new, smaller Club Ed. When we did a tour of the old DB on my QL3 they showed us a cell they called the pink room. If you were sent to the pink room you were on bread and water.


----------



## dutchie

DB in Edmonton might seem really harsh to someone used to the posh digs our civie prisoners get. My impression (although I have thankfully not spent a minute in DB) is that it is a tough, but fair, place to be. All prisons should be modeled after it.


----------



## Scott

George, was the Db in Gagetown out in the Blue Mountain area? Thought I saw something like a glasshouse out there once and seem to recall seeing it on a map.


----------



## George Wallace

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> George, was the Db in Gagetown out in the Blue Mountain area? Thought I saw something like a glasshouse out there once and seem to recall seeing it on a map.



Blue Mountain had been a Minimum Security Prison before the Military took it over and used it the same way that Petersville is used.   The DB was torn down (?) a couple of years ago.   It used to be out at the end of Champlain Ave, past 22 Fd Sqn, behind the old railhead.   Between the Railhead and Camp Argonaut.   The Comms Sqn used it as a form of 'Diefenbunker'/Message Center for many years.


GW


----------



## Scott

Ah yes, they showed us the old DB when we went to the gas hut. Thanks.


----------



## Spr.Earl

I have had the pleasure of being part of a Prisoner Escort for one unlucky soul to Club Ed.
As soon as we stepped in the door the guards started by making the prisoner come too attention.
Then making him remove his boot laces and belt.
It was deathly quite inside and to think it looks like a high shool from the out side.

We had to hang around for all the paper work to be done and the Prisoner had been physically inspected to make sure we had not abused him then we signed the body over.

Before taking charge of the prisoner,he is given a phsical by an M.O. and then you sign for him and the same happens at the other end.
Quit the process being part of an Escort.


----------



## Ian_M

Heres a question, quite an interesting one, at least I think so.

Are officers and enlisted held in seperate facilities, or segregated in any way? 

The reason I think its an interesting question is due to the class distinctions that once were quite vast between officers and enlisted, somthing today which is becoming more narrow, especially in the past 30 years.


----------



## Spr.Earl

A very good point!
Yes we are all supposed to be treated equal but in all my time in I have not heard of an Officer being incarcerated in Club Ed. but do know of one who was demoted and lost what ever for" Negligence Causing Death" and I don't know what has happened to him since.


----------



## Ian_M

I read somewhere in the QR&Os or CFAOs, one of them about prisoner transfers and the like, and I couldn't find anything regarding a commissioned officer, I'm guessing that there dealt with differently? Either losing their commission and being sent to civilian prison or somthing?


----------



## Spr.Earl

D.B only deals with sentense's for 2 years less a day then if your sentence is more you will finish your time in a Fed Goal.


----------



## Coyote43D

Ian_M said:
			
		

> Heres a question, quite an interesting one, at least I think so.
> 
> Are officers and enlisted held in seperate facilities, or segregated in any way?
> 
> The reason I think its an interesting question is due to the class distinctions that once were quite vast between officers and enlisted, somthing today which is becoming more narrow, especially in the past 30 years.



When my course did a tour of DB they told us that officers and NCM's are segregated.NCM's on the first floor and officers on the second. I don't know if it's the same in the new DB though.

 A funny part of the tour was when one of our instructors looked up at a cell number and said 'cell 16?......HEY that's my old cell!!!'


----------



## Sheerin

How many CF members currently reside there?


----------



## hiv

Sheerin said:
			
		

> How many CF members are currently reside there?



There was an article the in Maple Leaf about the new prison not long ago. I recall reading that they currently had 25 "guests".


----------



## Sheerin

thats not so bad. 
I wonder what the most common charge is?


----------



## hiv

Sheerin said:
			
		

> thats not so bad.
> I wonder what the most common charge is?



Well, based on informal, anecdotal tales I've heard, most people tend to end up there for assaulting a superior officer/NCM. However, sometimes I look over the JAG court martial calendar on their website and it seems the large majority of court martials are for sexual assaults. So I would assume some combination of the two would comprise the crimes of most of the inmate population.


----------



## Sheerin

From looking at the listed results from previous courts martial (only going back to May of this year) I was kinda surprised that the longest sentance given out was for 45 days (and that was for Pte. Liu who drew a weapon on a superior officer).  
Also looking through the NDA i've noticed that there are a lot of offenses that could get one life imprisonment.  Does anyone know how if there has ever been a Canadian solider sentanced to life for Insubordination 


> 84. Every person who strikes or attempts to strike, or draws or lifts up a weapon against, or uses, attempts to use or offers violence against, a superior officer is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Wonder if that was this lad?


http://army.ca/forums/members/543

From looking at the listed results from previous courts martial (only going back to May of this year) I was kinda surprised that the longest sentance given out was for 45 days (and that was for Pte. Liu who drew a weapon on a superior officer).


----------



## Highland Laddie

Yes, Officers can (and still do) get sent to Club Ed. Someone asked the question if the officers are treated the same as the NCMs. I'm not employed at the DB, so I wouldn't know, but I definitely know you don't want to be sent there. My understanding is that you are not allowed to talk at all while there unless addressed by one of the staff. I also heard that for officers the offending passage of the QR&Os / NDA is painted on your cell wall for you to stare at 24/7, but this more than likely falls under the 'urban legend' category.

I did know a Cpl you got sent there in the early 1990's for a month, and he clearly stated you didn't want to go there. He refused to talk about it in any great detail, but his attitude certainly changed for the better.


----------



## Sig_Des

I remember being in an interview by an MP Captain, and he had some insight on Club Ed.

It's not as Garish as some other prisons, but it's hard. There is less than a 3% repeat offender rate. Everything is a reward for good behaviour, smoking, television,etc, although the smoking bit may have changed since the new fed laws regarding prisons.

It's not technically a Federal Prison, therefore the longest you'll do is 2 years. And as far as bread and water, it's never for more than 3 consecutive days, and only in extreme cases of disciplinary problems. So if you get 4 days B &W, you have it for 3 days, one day of normal eats, then one more day B & W.

I've also heard from others that there is no speaking, unless by one of the guards, but that's hearsay, and I can't confirm.

What I can say is, think of your worse days in BMQ, triple it, and say to yourself you never want to do anything to get yourself sent there.


----------



## The_Falcon

A couple of my officers were discussing this at SG this year.  It came up as a matter of sentencing class b guys to a few days in dentention.  Anyways, for those who forgot about this lecture during basic, pretty much everything is a privilege that must be earned (including, speaking freely).  Also like someone mentioned think basic but way more anal retentive, like polishing garbage cans/door knobs, mopping/sweeping with drill movements (this came from one of my officers, who saw this while going on tour there) ie mop--right-turn--1 pace forward--halt--left-turn--mop etc.  If you remember on the video the guy was given a steel pail with a huge sticker and a tin of shoe polish.  He had to remove the sticker from the pail (without scratching the pail) and polish it, remove paint from tin of shoe polish not scratch it, polish shoe polish tin.  (My PT NCO from basic, showed us his shoe polish tin he kept after he did time in the brig while on tour).  Not a fun place. Never want to go there.


----------



## Cliffy433

I've heard of and from a few guys who've been...

1. (hearsay) Came back so diciplined, once a Snr NCO asked to meet him on the Pde Square for a routine task... forgot about the task and was going home at the end of the day to see the young Cpl standing properly at ease in the blistering heat - had been there several hours without moving, not daring to seek out a Snr NCO.

2. (from the horse's mouth) Went for 6 weeks, doesn't talk about it much - states if ever charged with a crime sufficient enough to warrant time there, he'll kill himself before court martial.

3.  (from the horse's mouth) Went for 14 days, end of ROTO 7 - anyone there will know why.  DB was quite slow, not a lot of guests.  The food gave him such horrendous gas, that for the health and well-being of those interred with him, he got his own private wing.  It's still on a points system.  Earn enough points, and they may allow you to smoke.  Earn enough points, you may be allowed into the TV room - more points yet to turn on the TV.  Etc...

They are not abusive, but expect discipline and drill to be of the HIGHEST standard.  

cliffy.


----------



## PTE Gruending

But really, what are they going to do if you refuse to cooperate? I am sure that anyone sent their for a moderate amount of time will not be pursuing a long/prestigious career in the Forces. What about releasing while being sent/in DB?


----------



## Sig_Des

Refuse to cooperate, disciplinary action.

And keep in mind, getting out of the forces is possible, but probly cuz they kick you out after you do your term in the db.

You have to realize, you have to do something pretty serious to get sent there, and it's under the military code of discipline and justice.

You have to accept that for all of us in the military, certain actions in civy street may get you a slap on the wrist, but in the forces, things may be taken a lot more seriously, otherwise, there's a breakdown in disipline


----------



## Gayson

I'm pretty sure During BMQ we were told that if choose to discharge while at Club ed or before going, you would be allowed to do so, but would still have to complete the jail time at club ed.

I'm meeting up with a couple of buddies from BMQ later today, I'll ask them if they remember this.


----------



## Gayson

My buddy didn't remember, so I looked it up in the QR&O's

I couldn't find anywhere saying wether a member could or could not release to avoid imprisonment.

However I found something interesting.  An Officer can be inprisoned, but cannot be put into detention.  according to 104.1 http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol2/ch104_e.asp#104.03

So, what is the difference between inprisonment and detention?


----------



## Highland Laddie

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> My buddy didn't remember, so I looked it up in the QR&O's
> 
> I couldn't find anywhere saying wether a member could or could not release to avoid imprisonment.
> 
> However I found something interesting.   An Officer can be inprisoned, but cannot be put into detention.   according to 104.1 http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol2/ch104_e.asp#104.03
> 
> So, what is the difference between inprisonment and detention?



I'm no member of AJAG, but I'll try to remember from my O courses. My educated guess here is that for officers 99% of offences that can land you in jail automatically go to court marshall, whereas for a troop you can be sentenced to detention at summary trial. I believe WO / MWO / CWO also fall in with the officers on this point (ie go to court martial). Of course, if any one knows the real answer (perhaps from experience   ), maybe someone can let us know.


----------



## Jarnhamar

In kingston there is a soldier who is currently in the MP cells. Apparently she thought she would screw the system and claimed/accepted money for putting her 3 (?) kids in daycare while she was on her course when he husband or ex husband was watching them. Shes spending a week or something in cells then heading out to club ed for a month or something.

The thing im wondering about is that I'm told because shes a female  (and on suicide watch i believe) she has to be watched by other females of the same rank SO the place where she worked (im trying not to give away too much info even though it was an open trial) was drained of the female privates who work there. They have to do 12 hour shifts sitting outside of her cell and escort her to the bath room and whatever else.

Is that not one of the stupidest things ever?  Because this girl lied to the army and stole money, people from her work place have to have THEIR lives screwed around with.(I would have a serious hate on for this individual) 
 I know the army is all crazy about guys not searching girls but the guards can only be the same rank as well? Whats the big deal behind that? Shouldn't the military police be guarding their prisoners and not some privates from a support trade?


----------



## Gayson

I didn't know only privates could be guards.

That seems pretty stupid to me.


----------



## NavyGrunt

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> I know the army is all crazy about guys not searching girls but the guards can only be the same rank as well? Whats the big deal behind that? Shouldn't the military police be guarding their prisoners and not some privates from a support trade?



Thats an interesting point. They certainly have the manpower at certain bases. Its not just the army. The RCMP as well will not have a man search a woman(as well as most other agencies). I've searched women and its not a fun time. I have only done so when it was impossible to have another woman search. But in those cases I find another woman who is bound by law to STFU(like a nurse) and she watches me. Its worked so far. I dont understand the "rank" thing. But the gender makes sense for searching but not for observing a "visitor"

I had a buddy(my doorman partner) who did some time in Club Ed 10 years ago and he had to earn the right to talk and smoke. He as well said he would rather die then go back. He wouldn't elaborate but he was their for assaulting a superior. It sounds to me like its run the way civvie jail should be... ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

I know someone who was forced to search a female once. He tried to refuse but was ordered to anyways. Some time later it was brought up in a sexual harassment case. Lucky for him the female didn't consider the fact that there was 2 captians, a master corporal and another private as a witness present and she was caught lying through her teeth.



> He as well said he would rather die then go back.


  Except for the odd hardened criminal who would go out shooting, isn't this a PERFECT mentality to instill on ex inmates?  The experience is SO shitty that unless their suicidal theirs a very small chance they will reoffend.


----------



## NavyGrunt

Well this indivdual was before this charge falling in with some bikers and doing some other stuff he shouldnt have after his time in the Club and a short stint in another provincial facility(provincial time again being harder than federal) he has his life on track, got a pardon and is in the air force. He's a decent human being- and being unwilling to go back to jail is what set him right.So I believe that it works to a degree. Fear for men without scruples works well. The problem comes when we have a system that doesnt recognize the need for different styles,


----------



## KevinB

Lets just say it sucks...

 Trust me  :-[

Yes the point system (coloured tags) is still in effect.

The Guards at CFSPDB (Canadian Forces Service Prison and Detention Barracks) are from all trades - min rank Cpl. and they do the DB course prior to being employed.

It is nowhere like it used to be 10+ years ago - but it is still and unpleasant place to reside.

Everything is done at the double quick time, Staff.
 Lights out is at 2100 and beleive me you are bagged - non stop cleaning parades, inspections, lectures and drill classes.
Meals are ate at attention in silence (the Guards bring meal from the Garrison Mess from a meal scheule you pick out the week prior).

The 1951 pattern webbign withs its painted over brass is still there.
Officers get the same treatment.

The only difference is between service detainees and service prisoners (they get different wings).  Detaineers are obvious pers sentecned to periods of detention while Service Prisoners are sentecned to Prison (90+ days and typically the boot).


----------



## Acorn

Kevin,

Do detainees/prisoners still have to strip the paint from the brass grommets and buckles on the webbing, the Brasso cans and the Kiwi cans and polish all to a high standard?

Acorn


----------



## KevinB

Yup wrt the webbing...  HINT the paint - it's water soluable [found that out the last day when I got to repaint my webbing pack etc.]

Cans can keep their paint - but the ever present bucket needs shinning too. 

It really sucks being a Patrica in DB with all the brass accoutrements and watching an Air Force guy don his tunic after spending 20secs getting it ready.

Brasso works WAY better than Silvo for the bucket... [Silvo is too pastey]

Other than the demise of the EYE the newer one (DB) has the same idea.



No Mike I have no more CS...  :crybaby:


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Hey Kevin what did you do?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Cliffy433 there were a few things during that tour that could have landed people in DB.


----------



## KevinB

CFL said:
			
		

> Hey Kevin what did you do?



Stupid in a non-stupid zone.
  ;D

a 129...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

thats one way of putting it.


----------



## pcain

sorry - can't resist:

http://www.embroiderydirect.com/club_ed/default.asp
http://www.clubed.net/
http://www.club-ed.com/
http://www.murrieta.k12.ca.us/tovashal/bcoley/clubed.htm
http://web.mala.bc.ca/education/ClubEd/2003_04/home.htm
http://www.clube.com/clubed2.htm
http://www.club-ed.net/
http://www.kerrvilleisd.net/clubed/
http://www.cta.org/InsideCTA/TrainingHR/ClubED.htm


----------



## Sig_Des

> What is Club Ed?
> Club Ed is a free, educational club that was created to help Mr. Coley's students learn new "stuff" by researching things in books and on the Internet.  The "Ed" stands for education, which is what the club is all about.


http://www.murrieta.k12.ca.us/tovashal/bcoley/clubed.htm

Ok, these are pretty funny, good show pcain


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

"Club Ed's surf camp and surf school in Santa Cruz, CA is the perfect learning vacation...Don't put off learning to surf, sign up for instruction from Club Ed. 
http://www.club-ed.com/

LOL! Nice find.


----------



## pcain

> Club ED Mission
> To provide information and resources to home embroiderer's so they may receive professional quality embroidery from their home using their embroidery machine.
> 
> What is Club ED?
> Club Ed is an educational club that uses newsletters, free designs, and other educational products to help home embroiderers create their very best work. The goal of Club Ed is to help you create professional quality embroidery on your home embroidery machine.
> 
> Who should belong to Club ED?
> Anyone who has an interest in home embroidery should become a member of Club Ed!


----------



## caine737

Back in 96 at the recruit school they use to show a movie about the DB in edmonton... all the class after the movie just sat in silence, we were scared to death( i was at least) that when the instructor ask us if we want to go there we all scream NO.

I wish they still have that movie to show to the recruit but i've been told the MP remove it form the base library across canada because they were afraid somebody can borrow it to do a escape plan. it was filmed in the old DB. 

Still today I have the same feeling about this place.

I talked with some persons who went there and it just reinforce my basic idea to avoid to go there as a prisoner but I would not mind to be a guard.

I've seen soldiers going to DB passing by the BMC when i was a med A and they look so sad, it's almost a pity feeling i got for them, drill everywhere in the BMC, big and tall MP escorting them.


I heard (probably a false rumor) that at the time they were taking volunteers from a unit for a week in db to make them feel what is it and make them refrain doing crime by knowing the consequence, somebody can tell me if this is true or not please???


----------



## LordOsborne

I remember from cadets when they ran the very first Cadet Harassment and Abuse Prevention (the infamous CHAP Program) video. they had a segment on sexual abuse. the case study was an army cadet Captain from Quebec who sexually abused some female cadets in the late 80's / early 90's. he was sent to Club Ed for some time, and the Officer giving us the video presentation told us some exaggerated stories (exaggerated based on what i've read here) about the DB. needless to say, it scared the crap out of us cadets. Since then, though, the CHAP program is just a farce. everyone's afraid to offend someone or get "Chapped" :


----------



## FSTO

Gruending said:
			
		

> But really, what are they going to do if you refuse to cooperate? I am sure that anyone sent their for a moderate amount of time will not be pursuing a long/prestigious career in the Forces. What about releasing while being sent/in DB?



I know personally 2 people who went there, a CWO PPCLI (I met him at St Jean on a Block french course) and a CPO2 who works for me. The CPO2 went there as a killick for being adrift (several times) said it was the best thing that ever happened to him and he never went back. I am convinced that we would weed out or improve a whole wack of divisional problems if we could send them there for a week or 2.


----------



## Glorified Ape

Just a small tangent, but regarding the mention of male-female searches, does the prohibition go for females searching males too?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Just a small tangent, but regarding the mention of male-female searches, does the prohibition go for females searching males too?



I can think of a lot better ways to get my kicks! ;D


----------



## Michael OLeary

Gruending said:
			
		

> I am sure that anyone sent their for a moderate amount of time will not be pursuing a long/prestigious career in the Forces.



I remember NCOs from my days as a young officer saying such things as "I wouldn't trust him, he's never been in cells" when describing some of their own peers. Ah, but that's "the old army" so many on the forums seem to be yearning for.


----------



## Infanteer

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I remember NCOs from my days as a young officer saying such things as "I wouldn't trust him, he's never been in cells" when describing some of their own peers. Ah, but that's "the old army" so many on the forums seem to be yearning for.



I've heard that as well.  One good NCO I had remarked that "getting charged should be a PO check for becoming an NCO"....


----------



## PeterLT

As an old alumni of the CFDB, I don't recall the discipline it being much worse than my CLC course at 1 OTD. We did do some pretty stupid things but overall it did the trick and got the desired results. There were different "classes" of prisoners depending on offence, return trips, etc. One had to watch things with the staff as we were on a point system and I recall that on the floor of my cell there was one of those brass plates, you know, for water or something. When the sunlight hit it the reflection would lite the place right up from all my polishing. I would recommend it to anyone who needs to figure out their place in the universe. Ah....there's nothing like marking time at the urinal.

Peter


----------



## calno

How do you get the paint off the polish tin without scratching the tin? ???


----------



## Pencil Tech

I think I'd rather go to Club Ed than a regular prison, if given the choice (haha). In DB it's going to be all-out military beasting and a lousy go to be sure, but in civvy prison all kinds of nasty things can happen to you courtesy of the other inmates. In DB you're not going to be somebody's b*tch or get "shanked" or whatever.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Im just going to plan on avoiding any jail period....

 ^-^


----------



## TCBF

Not a lot of MPs on this thread.  Why not?  ;D


----------



## MikeM

Don't wanna give away the secrets!  ;D


----------



## GIJANE

tlm said:
			
		

> I've heard of and from a few guys who've been...
> 
> 1. (hearsay) Came back so diciplined, once a Snr NCO asked to meet him on the Pde Square for a routine task... forgot about the task and was going home at the end of the day to see the young Cpl standing properly at ease in the blistering heat - had been there several hours without moving, not daring to seek out a Snr NCO.
> 
> 2. (from the horse's mouth) Went for 6 weeks, doesn't talk about it much - states if ever charged with a crime sufficient enough to warrant time there, he'll kill himself before court martial.
> 
> 3.   (from the horse's mouth) Went for 14 days, end of ROTO 7 - anyone there will know why.   DB was quite slow, not a lot of guests.   The food gave him such horrendous gas, that for the health and well-being of those interred with him, he got his own private wing.   It's still on a points system.   Earn enough points, and they may allow you to smoke.   Earn enough points, you may be allowed into the TV room - more points yet to turn on the TV.   Etc...
> 
> They are not abusive, but expect discipline and drill to be of the HIGHEST standard.
> 
> cliffy.



Hmmmmm.....I was on Roto 7....was it the incident with the weapon between 2 arty type persons? 


Jane


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_I think I'd rather go to Club Ed than a regular prison, if given the choice (haha). In DB it's going to be all-out military beasting and a lousy go to be sure, but in civvy prison all kinds of nasty things can happen to you courtesy of the other inmates. In DB you're not going to be somebody's b*tch or get "shanked" or whatever_.  

....somebody's been watching too many movies.................. ;D


----------



## FastEddy

pcain said:
			
		

> sorry - can't resist:
> 
> http://www.embroiderydirect.com/club_ed/default.asp
> http://www.clubed.net/
> http://www.club-ed.com/
> http://www.murrieta.k12.ca.us/tovashal/bcoley/clubed.htm
> http://web.mala.bc.ca/education/ClubEd/2003_04/home.htm
> http://www.clube.com/clubed2.htm
> http://www.club-ed.net/
> http://www.kerrvilleisd.net/clubed/
> http://www.cta.org/InsideCTA/TrainingHR/ClubED.htm




As you say, Sorry I couldn't resist, I think our members would get a big kick on your take of this Forum.
I often wonder why people with such a low regard for the Military, would waste their time reading or
posting on it.

Check out this persons web page.


----------



## FastEddy

MikeM said:
			
		

> Don't wanna give away the secrets!   ;D




No MikeM, I don't think thats it. But while we are on the subject of SDB's an FDB's and serving in that
Era of their hayday. Principally No.4 SDB Montreal - No.12 SDB Camp Borden and No.1 FDB Soest
Germany. Yes we had one in almost every part of Canada.

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with to-days conditions or routins, but after reading this thread, they
sound like Club MED instead of ED., by comparison

There are a few minor differences between then and now for sure.

1. The point system referred to was only to earn Remission (time off) from their sentences.

2. All the Staff were Provost, with the exception of the Cooks RCASC and the MIR Cpl. RCAMC.

3. There was no privileges ie: Radio, T.V. or Smoking.

4. No. 1 Diet was accompanied by Vitamin Pills. SD's wore only socks & coverhalls and cells were lightless

5. All Staff members except Officers, The RSM were addressed as STAFF.

6. When a STAFF entered your cell, you immediately screamed staff, dropped what you were doing
    and ran to the fartherest wall with your nose and toes against it.

7. Your cell usually consisted of a built in wooden table and bunk, bleached white from scrubbing.

8. If SD's arrived without full marching order and weapon, (RCAF & RCN), they were issued it.

9. We did not detain Female SD's.

10.Escorts immediately turned SD's over to the Admitting or Rotuda Staff. (Medical certification) was
    usually done by SD's unit M.O. if not by daily visiting RCAMC MO.

11.If a Gate or Compound was in evidence at the entrance (1 FDB's was a 100 ft.) The SD at
     the High Port & full Marching Order was Double Quick Timed from the gate to the Entrance.
     The Escort stood at attention at the Gate till the SD got it right.

12.Occupational Therapy, Kit, Drill, Obsticle Course, Cell, Grounds and Building Maint. Cleaning Materials,
    Sandstone (used to strip paint, galvenize coatings and Wood surfaces) , Red Floor Polish, Bootblack
    Blanko and Brasso.

13.The meals were quite good and served in two mess tins and a cup, (which were part of your kit
    lay out.

14.Every thing was done at the Doubletime except marching back to your cell with your meal.

15. WO's &NCO's were stripped of rank also if DB time was going to be part of sentance.

I've listed about all of the routine and good things. One thing for sure, you could always tell someone
that had just reurned from a stay at a DB, he had the best Kit, Boots and Brass on Parade.

Yes its true the return rate was very small and the majority went on up the ranks.



_


----------



## Infanteer

Sounds like the way it should be done....


----------



## Fusilier

Having completed the paperwork to send mbrs to the DB (three in the past two months) I can tell you that even a charge of AWOL can get you there.  

By the way the movie was called "In through the out door" and featured a ghost in battle dress, I've got a copy on VHS somewhere....


----------



## Bobert

The is interesting cause from what I've read about Fort Leavensworth, is that it is very different. Such as Fort Leavenworth being for long sentences and the fact that inmates are treated as the enemy (as if they were POWs) rather then former soldiers in the U.S. Military. In other words they don't do drill and acnowledge rank.


----------



## reccecrewman

> But really, what are they going to do if you refuse to cooperate? I am sure that anyone sent their for a moderate amount of time will not be pursuing a long/prestigious career in the Forces. What about releasing while being sent/in DB?



Well, we had a young Trooper in my Unit who got sent there not once, but TWICE, and within a 4 month span to boot.  He came back the first time as a completely changed individual (much more sombre) but found himself being charged quickly after his return for another offence & was sent back to CFSDB - After his second return from there, he said he went in and flat out refused to play the game again, they just had him ride out his sentence in solitary confinement.


----------



## Gunner

The basic premise of having a service detention barracks is to rehabilitate a solder/sailor/airperson, who has conducted himself improperly, back into a proper serviceman/woman.  Personnel sentenced to "prison" are not usually worth rehabilitating from a CF perspective a they are no longer worthy of wearing the uniform.  I've been through the old DB and just recently have had the opportunity to check out the new facility in Edmonton.  You don't want to wind up there and experience the program.  Well done to the staff who run it in a very professional manner.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Detention Barracks Routine

05:30 Wake Up
06:00  Three S's, cell clean up, fold sheets and blankets just so
07:30   Breakfast, line up in front of cell, no conversation during meals
08:30   Cell Inspection, polished boots, polished brass and webbing, floor clean
09:00   Military Education on the Drill Square
11:30   Return to cell change out of uniform to DB coveralls
12:00   Lunch
12:30    Clean cell
13:00    Military Education on Drill Square
15:30    Change out of uniform into DB coveralls, cell clean up
16:30    Individual contemplation of sins
17:00    Dinner
17:30    Detention Barracks duties such as mopping, waxing areas of the detention   
             barracks
19:00    Inspection of assigned duties and return to cells, OOD arrives for inspection 
20:00    Lights out   

First floor all ranks in individual cells reguardless of rank, all are "short term" visitors. Second floor is a dorm set up for those more permanent visitors. Points have to be earned to get moved up there. When there you may be eligble for "out side" employment- mowing the grass, washing vechicles etc. Time off sentance can be earned usually one wek for thirty days but time can also be added on. Solitare in cell 23 hours, bread and water, vitimens.


----------



## Britney Spears

> I've been through the old DB and just recently have had the opportunity to check out the new facility in Edmonton.



Oh my..... quite the firebrand.....


----------



## pbi

> Personnel sentenced to "prison" are not usually worth rehabilitating from a CF perspective a they are no longer worthy of wearing the uniform



Federal prison is the very last place we should ever send anybody if we expect to get them back as a useful individual. I would prefer to see the term length at Edmonton increased to allow us to take care of our own and keep them out of the jungle that is our Fed system. We are far closer to a successful reformatory model than that system will ever be.

Cheers.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

A tear just fell onto my keyboard when I read the routine......I could only wish......


----------



## 3rd Horseman

My first connection to DB was in my second posting I can remember in my unit they sent in a Herc to pick up all the soldiers going to DB ( so many). The concept of DB left a bad taste in my mouth since they sent away so many guys from my unit who I thought were good soldiers. On reflection years later I realized they should have sent the BC and not the troops. However they all returned and were good soldiers, many promoted to senior ranks today. Guess it was not too bad after all


----------



## 3rd Herd

3rd Horseman, my old RSM quoted " every good soldier goes to DB once". when I arrivied to start my vacation STAFF had conniptions; I was in field gear with webbing, ruck and personal weapons, no dress uniform to press and iron, when told to polish my combat boots I advised STAFF that it was against regs. By the end of the week the entire wing was occupied by our unit. Safety in numbers, STAFF spent their time bothering the poor other odds and sods. It was also amusing to see the faces of the boots coming through on a tour who were about to be posted to our unit. And yes your right almost all of us got promoted/ rank back and continued on soldiering. On reflection it kinda makes me wonder if all those who wear a CD have any fun.


----------



## bwatch

Coyote43D said:
			
		

> They built a new, smaller Club Ed. When we did a tour of the old DB on my QL3 they showed us a cell they called the pink room. If you were sent to the pink room you were on bread and water.



And come out feeling like a girl


----------



## George Wallace

bwatch said:
			
		

> And come out feeling like a girl


Is that from experience?   ;D


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> On reflection it kinda makes me wonder if all those who wear a CD have any fun.



Well it all depends on how long it took you to earn that CD. 8)


----------



## foerestedwarrior

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Well it all depends on how long it took you to earn that CD. 8)



Only took a Sgt in my unit 18 years.......


----------



## Elisha

I have heard a few officers say, evey good soldier goes to DB once as well.  

I know guys that have got sent there for awol, charged under section 129---don't ask what they did :, to fraud among many others! 

From what I have heard, it is enough to not make me want to ever go!  But definatly would rather there than civi prison!!!


Elisha


----------



## FastEddy

Elisha said:
			
		

> I have heard a few officers say, evey good soldier goes to DB once as well.
> 
> Strange that is a attitude that I have never heard. It would be akin to a Police Officer saying that every person should commit a crime, as it should make them a better Citizen.
> 
> However the general conception seems to be that Military Prisons/Detention Barracks are a place to be avoided, thus acting as a deterrent against Offenses and the Good Order of Military Discipline.
> 
> With regard to not complying with Orders or Routine. Due to the many changes and softening of attitudes which have occurred down through the years, I find that quite plausible. However, in Pre 1968 Era,that attitude would have lasted 15min. IMO, any person bragging or promoting such actions should be considered a poor candidate for the Forces to start with. Obviously, any person with such open comtempt for authority and discipline, could also display it under dire circumstances.
> 
> It is quite correct that we should maintain the control and confinement of our Service personnel for obvious reasons. There should be no buy out from a Sentence and any Discharges should be based on the rehabilitation/or not, of the Service Person. (sitting down on their hands and saying "make me") Would be a sure ticket out and left to the discretion of the Institutes Commandant.


----------



## chrisf

FastEddy said:
			
		

> However the general conception seems to be that Military Prisons/Detention Barracks are a place to be avoided, thus acting as a deterrent against Offenses and the Good Order of Military Discipline.



I've heard it at least once...

Seems to me that it makes sense... if the civvie prisons actually did what they were supposed to do (rehabillitate) effectively, then the theory is what's coming out the exit are better people then what walked in the entrance...

Given the nature of military prison and the nature of the people sent there, rehabilitation is more the likely effective.


----------



## 3rd Herd

FastEddy,
That saying was actually quite popular in the 60' to late 80's. Sometime an officer or SNCO used his office to settle personal conflicts, some offenses deemed by soldiers as 'honest offenses' but required a brief period on penance. It was frequently used for the most part by CWO's and MWO's a few long time WO.'s. And this attitude also carried over into DB itself. Staff were a lot harder or creative with some than with others. But then that is history.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I think that I posted this in another thead, [ hopefully not this one, but its too late at night to check] remember, one can never confuse the soldier who either lost his way or his temper to the trashbags that come into the "normal" prison system......comparing apples to ..well apple cores.
Of course the "end result" will be different.


----------



## Elisha

But with that saying you have to remember that not all are sent to DB because of some 'crime' persay that would send them to civi jail.  

I have heard it from more than one officer as a matter of fact.  I think the phase cannot be linked in any way to a police officer saying that everyone should commit a crime once to be a better citizen.  DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.


Elisha


----------



## COBRA-6

Elisha said:
			
		

> DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.
> 
> Elisha



Elisha, are you in the CF?? Just curious because your profile is blank.


----------



## KevinB

Elisha said:
			
		

> DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.
> 
> 
> Elisha



BD does not instill or teach discipline - recruit school and battleschool should have done that.  DB just helps the soldier reconnect with discipline  

I was in with an AF member -- he was hopeless and had a much tougher time, since he did have the benifits of a PPCLI BattleSchool upbringing.


----------



## FastEddy

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> FastEddy,
> That saying was actually quite popular in the 60' to late 80's. Sometime an officer or SNCO used his office to settle personal conflicts, some offenses deemed by soldiers as 'honest offenses' but required a brief period on penance. It was frequently used for the most part by CWO's and MWO's a few long time WO.'s. And this attitude also carried over into DB itself. Staff were a lot harder or creative with some than with others. But then that is history.




That may be the case onwards from the late 60's, The settling of personal accounts among the Ranks and a useage of (what actions by CSM's & RSM's) and "Honest Offenses" leaves me confused to what you are actually reffering to.

Not being able to comment on the present day Command Structure and Powers /Limits of Sentences by Oi/c, O.C's and C.O's. To the best of my recollection, a WO Oi/c was very limited in his range of punishment and if DB time seemed warranted, he passed sentencing up to the Adjutant and so on.

Service Detainees were regarded not to their sentence or Offense, but to their Conduct and Deportment.
However, Smart Asses have been known to receive the full Hospitality of the Staff and Facilities of the DB.


----------



## FastEddy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I think that I posted this in another thead, [ hopefully not this one, but its too late at night to check] remember, one can never confuse the soldier who either lost his way or his temper to the trashbags that come into the "normal" prison system......comparing apples to ..well apple cores.
> Of course the "end result" will be different.




Bruce, you couldn't be more right and I couldn't add anything else.

Cheers.


----------



## FastEddy

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I've heard it at least once...
> 
> Seems to me that it makes sense... if the civvie prisons actually did what they were supposed to do (rehabillitate) effectively, then the theory is what's coming out the exit are better people then what walked in the entrance...
> 
> Given the nature of military prison and the nature of the people sent there, rehabilitation is more the likely effective.




Right again, on our Military Correctional Institutes. For the other (Civilian Prisons) Yeah!, When Pigs Fly.

Cheers.


----------



## FastEddy

Elisha said:
			
		

> But with that saying you have to remember that not all are sent to DB because of some 'crime' persay that would send them to civi jail.
> 
> I have heard it from more than one officer as a matter of fact.  I think the phase cannot be linked in any way to a police officer saying that everyone should commit a crime once to be a better citizen.  DB teaches soldiers a little more disipline...in my opinion.
> 
> 
> Elisha




You cannot compare or releat the severity of Military Offences and Criminal Acts.

i.e: You take two weeks un-authorized and informed time off from your important position from your employment. Worst Scenario; Your Fired.

i.e You take two weeks un-authorized and informed time off from your Military place of Duty.
Worst scenario. CB up to 90 Days Detention.

Advocating a Service Personal would be a better Soldier if he or she committed a Serious enough Offense to Warrant Imprisonment is ridiculous. Therefore the parallel.

It has and will be said, A Soldier is usually the better for it. (which in the Military bears no Stigma), which is not the case on Civi Street in both areas.

It is also unfair to those Service Personnel who have obtained the Excellance of their Profession and have forgone the suggested advantage of Arrest and Confinement.


----------



## Sheerin

> It has and will be said, A Soldier is usually the better for it. (which in the Military bears no Stigma)



Presumably being sent to DB will show up on ones permanent record, but does the individual after being released have a civilian criminal record as well?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Sheerin said:
			
		

> Presumably being sent to DB will show up on ones permanent record, but does the individual after being released have a civilian criminal record as well?



Quick answer No if you are in under a CF charge however if you are in under a Criminal Code of Canada Charge and conviction then yes it is the same as being put in and released from civiy jail. Time in DB will show up though on an enhanced background check which is becoming a more common requirement in the civilian world.


----------



## geo

3rd
Not sure it shows up if you apply and receive a pardon.


----------



## Elisha

No i am not in the CF and Kevin I agree with you in saying that it doesnt teach disipline per say but it is a way to reconnect with it definatly!  


I had no idea that time in DB would show up in a background check!


Elisha


----------



## 3rd Herd

Geo/Elisah

key word is enhanced. You would be surprised what shows up. Now not everything that does show up is relevent to either employment or to clearance. Most often the interviewer will make that decision. For example your standard Criminal Record Check the very last box on the form contains the disclaimer "may or may not exist". Here the individual compiling the report will ask for clarification from the reportee (individual who the report is being done on) of incidents that have shown up and then will determine the significance of said incident towards what initiated the request ie. employment, clearance level etc.


----------



## gnplummer421

Ah yes SDB Edmonton....spent 25 days there. I never made it out of A wing. Lots of PT and lots of drill. Cell inspections every morning. Three cigarettes a day, one after each meal and we were allowed to talk for Ten minutes after each meal as well. I was there in '83. We had one guy that refused to eat. After a day or so, the medics came, put an IV in him and fed him, then he went into the "hole", a sound proof, lightproof room where you get porridge, bread and water. The time spent in there did not count against your time served. There was one Officer there when I was there, he was apart from everyone else.   If you were there longer than 30 days, you would earn your way into B wing where you would get more privileges and less drill/pt. Long servers were in a dorm and went out on work parties outside of the center.

Learned a valuable lesson there, and changed my crazy ways 
Not recommended for the faint hearted.

Gnplummer421


----------



## gnplummer421

Further to my last;

I did get a pardon, which took 18 months to complete. My records were wiped clean (An Officer actually accompanied me to the MP shack and watched the paperwork get pulled). I do believ that if someone dug deep enough, somewhere a record would show up, not a Civvie company, but an employer that would need to do a deep background check for Security clearance. Maybe an MP reading this could clarify.

I should tell you that the food there was amazing, and I lost 15 pounds of fat, and gained 15 pounds of muscle..best shape of my life when I came out. Kinda doing it the hard way though :

Gnplummer


----------



## geo

3rd and gnplumber...
as I stated before, I believe that someone who has received a "royal" pardon (GG is the only authority for issuing pardons) - would have most all accessible records wiped clean of said events & marks.

From what I have witnessed recently, Pedophile info which happened before the establishment of National List .... names aren't there. I know of 3 Reprehensible former cadet leaders who did time for crime .... and basic records are "clean" following "pardons"... (Gawd that makes me angry!!!)


----------



## gnplummer421

Just a FYI;

My charge was a drug offence (a moment of stupidity - half of a reefer)_ 30 days in jail - C&P - deferment of promotion - not worth it, really dumb-ass move. Oh well hindsight is 20/20. Hard lesson learned.


----------



## Acorn

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Not being able to comment on the present day Command Structure and Powers /Limits of Sentences by Oi/c, O.C's and C.O's. To the best of my recollection, a WO Oi/c was very limited in his range of punishment and if DB time seemed warranted, he passed sentencing up to the Adjutant and so on.



COs have powers of punishment, and can delegate officers with lesser powers. Now, at least, only Commissioned Officers can be delegated officers. In fact, in my 25-odd years, I don't think that has changed. A WO cannot be a delegated officer, and therefore cannot have powers of punishment under the NDA. The Adjudant had no NDA-derived powers of punishment unless also a Delegated Officer (very rare).

Normally, a CO will delegate company/squadron commanders (OCs) and in a smaller unit may delegate the DCO/XO. The delegated officer has the least powers of punishment, but has the power to refer the charge to a higher authority if he/she feels his/her powers are inadequate (same applies to a CO who can refer it to a higher commader, etc).


----------



## FastEddy

Acorn said:
			
		

> COs have powers of punishment, and can delegate officers with lesser powers. Now, at least, only Commissioned Officers can be delegated officers. In fact, in my 25-odd years, I don't think that has changed. A WO cannot be a delegated officer, and therefore cannot have powers of punishment under the NDA. The Adjudant had no NDA-derived powers of punishment unless also a Delegated Officer (very rare).
> 
> Normally, a CO will delegate company/squadron commanders (OCs) and in a smaller unit may delegate the DCO/XO. The delegated officer has the least powers of punishment, but has the power to refer the charge to a higher authority if he/she feels his/her powers are inadequate (same applies to a CO who can refer it to a higher commader, etc).




Acorn, I think anyone who might have read any of my treads have establish that any factual reference to the Military was based on a Pre 1968 period. Even all your 25 years of experience only takes you back to 81, agreed a lot has transpirered since then and a lot before then. Your present claim seems perfectly acceptable as you would not have made it as any current day members could easily debunk it.

However I would suggest that you might hesitate in commenting or disputing on subjects which may have differred during a certain time span.

Actual Title & Designate 
Circa 1953                                           W.O.2 Sh.... D.W
                                                          RCASC
                                                          O/ic Motor Compound
                                                          RCAMC School
                                                          Camp Borden Ont.

Our Detachment was attached to the School for Rations, Quarters and Motor Pool Facilities. Major Mechanical Maint. & Repairs were sent to Base RCEME and Pay was handled by Camp HQ.

During my posting I had occasion to submit several offense reports against two of his Drivers for Speeding and was a Witness on their Orders Parades. One was given 7 Days CB and one 
7 Days CB & $10.00 fine. And the Orders Parades were conducted in his Office down at the Motor Compound.


----------



## FastEddy

Elisha said:
			
		

> No i am not in the CF and Kevin I agree with you in saying that it doesnt teach disipline per say but it is a way to reconnect with it definatly!
> 
> 
> I had no idea that time in DB would show up in a background check!
> 
> 
> Elisha




It all depends on the extent and position that check is made for, as outlined  by"gnPlummer421 & 3rdHerd" if you were applying for the Secret Service, I guess they could find out all the details of ones sex life. But in normal job applications your Military records are not requested. Verification of Service and type of Discharge can be verified by your Discharge Certificate.

As you progress on and through this Forum you be able to distingwish those contributers which you can take to the Bank. Es specally concerning matters of Discipline.

Again I put it to you, why the Interest in DB's and Displine ?.

Cheers.


----------



## Elisha

FastEddy are you asking me?!  My father in law was in db way back when and now works in an industry that no doubt a background check was pulled.  I just find it very interesting that it would appear, especially when I know people that have been charged with awol and but in DB.


Just an interesting subject I guess.

Elisha


----------



## geo

Elisha,
AWOL, most times is treated as a minor offence
dealt with in Summary trial and, if the fine is minimal, eg 200$ or extra duties or Confined to base the conduct sheet will be wiped clean as per regulations... so minor items won't necessarily show on background checks.


----------



## S McKee

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Quick answer No if you are in under a CF charge however if you are in under a Criminal Code of Canada Charge and conviction then yes it is the same as being put in and released from civiy jail. Time in DB will show up though on an enhanced background check which is becoming a more common requirement in the civilian world.



You are incorrect. There now provisions for a number of military offences (Part 3 Div 6.2 of NDA) for which members can be fingerprinted and photographed under the Indentification of Criminals Act, which means your record follows you. For want of a better term your military offences are part of your "civilian" record and can be uncovered with a routine criminal records check.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Thanks for the correction Jumper as I said it was a quick answer and my experience with that facet was historical. My more recent practical experiences have to do with enhanced checks and the normal Criminal Record Check procedure which I have attempted to outline while staying within the public domain of information.


----------



## Pte_Martin

geo said:
			
		

> Elisha,
> AWOL, most times is treated as a minor offence
> dealt with in Summary trial and, if the fine is minimal, eg 200$ or extra duties or Confined to base the conduct sheet will be wiped clean as per regulations... so minor items won't necessarily show on background checks.



I got a AWOL charge and got $500 fine, and got the choice to go to a court martial but since i knew i was guilty i took the smart way and went summary trail. I thought AWOL stayed on your record forever. How would i find out if mine gets wiped off?


----------



## S McKee

RHFC said:
			
		

> I got a AWOL charge and got $500 fine, and got the choice to go to a court martial but since i knew i was guilty i took the smart way and went summary trail. I thought AWOL stayed on your record forever. How would i find out if mine gets wiped off?


Check your conduct sheet on your pers file. Charges are not just "wiped off". You must ask for a pardon to have them expunged and I believe you have to wait 3 years (could be 5 but I'm sure it is 3) before you can apply for a pardon.


----------



## Elisha

Geo,

I know that Awol is a minor offence but there were more than one case that I knew of that they were sent to DB for.  However, in saying that it could be that this was more than a one time occurance.  I do not know the rammifactions of the charge at all.


Elisha


----------



## Pte_Martin

Elisha said:
			
		

> Geo,
> 
> I know that Awol is a minor offence but there were more than one case that I knew of that they were sent to DB for.  However, in saying that it could be that this was more than a one time occurance.  I do not know the rammifactions of the charge at all.
> 
> 
> Elisha



AWOL can be a minor offence OR it could be something big it all depends on the circumstance


----------



## geo

RHFC said:
			
		

> I got a AWOL charge and got $500 fine, and got the choice to go to a court martial but since i knew i was guilty i took the smart way and went summary trail. I thought AWOL stayed on your record forever. How would i find out if mine gets wiped off?


Minor charges, fines up to 200$ are dealt with under DOAD 7006-1

Major charges requiring a pardon are dealt with under DOAD 7016-1
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/intro_e.asp#7000

With respect to what your conduct sheet looks like right now - ask your OR to see yours


----------



## Acorn

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Acorn, I think anyone who might have read any of my treads have establish that any factual reference to the Military was based on a Pre 1968 period. Even all your 25 years of experience only takes you back to 81, agreed a lot has transpirered since then and a lot before then. Your present claim seems perfectly acceptable as you would not have made it as any current day members could easily debunk it.



Sorry Eddy, I'm not a Fan Club member, so I can't say I read enough of your posts to know that your knowledge is strictly pre-'68. I should have checked your profile. Thanks, though, for acknowledging that I *may* well be correct within my own span of knowledge (sorry, should be 25+ years, not quite 26 yet).



> However I would suggest that you might hesitate in commenting or disputing on subjects which may have differred during a certain time span.



If it were clear that you were only commenting on an antediluvian time period I would not have made a comment. I did, however, think that the clarification should be made, as we wouldn't want today's young soldiers to think some crotchety young WO like myself could actually preside over a summary trial.

Acorn


----------



## FastEddy

Acorn said:
			
		

> Sorry Eddy, I'm not a Fan Club member, so I can't say I read enough of your posts to know that your knowledge is strictly pre-'68. I should have checked your profile. Thanks, though, for acknowledging that I *may* well be correct within my own span of knowledge (sorry, should be 25+ years, not quite 26 yet).
> 
> If it were clear that you were only commenting on an antediluvian time period I would not have made a comment. I did, however, think that the clarification should be made, as we wouldn't want today's young soldiers to think some crotchety young WO like myself could actually preside over a summary trial.
> 
> Acorn




Right no harm done. 

Question, in todays Command structure, WO's cannot be designated  Officer i/c let alone conduct Summary Trials ?. Would you know how or why that came about ?.

Cheers.


----------



## geo

WOs don't have a commission and don't have delegated authority from the CO.

Also - nowadays, not every officer can be a delegated officer. It is mandatory for all COs and the officers he's delegated punishment authority (+RSM) to take a "presiding officer" course - given by the Area JAG office.

If the CO does not have the qualification - he can't even delegate to one of his officers.

Qualification must be validated on a periodic basis and if you let it lapse, you're back to square 1 & have to take the course all over again.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There was – back in the ‘50s and ‘60s, I think, a category called, in QR(Army), *detachment commander* who _could_ be a WO1 and who _could_ have both powers of punishment and the same financial authority of a CO with the rank of captain.

I seem to recall actually meeting one: a Signals or Engineer WO1, if memory serves.

Can any other old timers help?  Is my memory still working properly?


----------



## geo

Ed,
What you're talking about does ring a bell....
but with the update to the National Defence Act and the tightening up of regulations with respect to the application of the Code of Service discipline, that sort of thing has gone away .... as you said - round about Forces Unification time.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There were some specialized, and important WO1s way back when – not that the current crop are anything but _special_ and important I hasten to add.  They had _titles_ like artificer, conductor and foreman.

I recall, while being trained as a junior LO in a brigade HQ, meeting the Foreman of Signals, a WO1 who was introduced as the _technical officer_ of the brigade Sigs Sqn.  “Aren’t most of the signals officers engineers?” I asked, “How-come you’re the technical officer?”

“They are indeed engineers, sir,” he replied, “but that doesn’t mean they know the first thing about the technical aspects of signalling.  I, on the other, hand, *know* all this stuff,“ he swept his hands out to indicate the array of command and signals wagons, “damn near as well as I know my wife, and I *understand* it a lot better”

As an aside, and back on topic and to support KevinB’s earlier comment: we were taught, way, way back when the earth was still cooling, that when a soldier broke the rules and headed off to the DB it was to correct a training error which ‘we’ (the big WE, meaning the entire army ‘system’) had made when, quite clearly, we let him our of recruit training too early.  Soldiers, we were told, were no bad, just inadequately trained – if they broke the rules then the training might need to be repeated.

Edit: to correct send paragraph


----------



## geo

100% in agreement with you

as things stand, it's amaazing that the CO & his delegated officers still "practice law" - there are many who would have the authority transfered to courts & judges.... but that would strip away the ability of the CO to take care of business in a most expeditious way.


----------



## S McKee

geo said:
			
		

> 100% in agreement with you
> 
> as things stand, it's amaazing that the CO & his delegated officers still "practice law" - there are many who would have the authority transfered to courts & judges.... but that would strip away the ability of the CO to take care of business in a most expeditious way.


Unfortunately none of this would be an issue if Snr NCOs and MCpls did their jobs in the first place. IMO the majority of soldiers who end up at the DB end up there because most (not all) Sgts do not take their jobs seriously enough. To many new recruits the army is another nine to five job, there is an obvious disconnect in basic somewhere.


----------



## geo

Jumper..
agree with you but it often becomes an issue of the Officers who don't back their NCOs
get your Troop Commander to reverse disciplinary decisions one time too often and you get what you're talking about.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I’m not sure exactly when we made the transition to what I would call an _occupational_ model of _service_.  I guess it started in the mid ‘60s – maybe that’s when I first noticed.

By the mid/late ‘60s we had teams of officers from Ottawa traveling the world, telling us (all ranks) that we had to think about ourselves and the army somewhat differently.  The _new model_ army, we were told, would consist of married home owners, tradesmen and professionals.  By the ‘70s we had – I’m not allowed to make this up, as the Liberals might say – a recruiting poster which showed a young, green uniformed (we all had green uniforms) officer stepping off an executive jet, briefcase in hand – eyes fixed firmly on his future.  We responded, as I recall, with a new army song: the Ballad of the Green Briefcase.  We created a new cartoon character – Captain Canada – who pulled magic solutions out of green briefcase to solve perplexing problems like how to get people posted *out* of HQ.

It was no surprise when I went back to regimental duty and found that the _occupational_ model was well entrenched, even in the Sergeants’ Mess.  We became an army of married homeowners with all that implies.  To offer just one example: I recall talking to a ‘military housing study’ (led by MGen Frank Norman, a good officer and a very decent fellow, smart, too).  I suggested that there ought to be a bonus offered to soldiers to _live in_ barracks and married quarters because we might have an _operational requirement_ to have some percentage of our soldiers within easy reach.  General Norman agreed that there probably was such a military operational requirement but assured us that it was not anywhere near, much less in his study mandate – which was to ensure that the military did not _subsidize_ housing, thus creating a disadvantage for local landlords and builders and depriving the government of its due.

There was a steady, simmering (now and again boiling) anger between units and service schools and the service schools and the recruit school and the recruit school and the recruiting staff re the barely acceptable standard of junior soldiers and officers – much angst, little action.  LGen JJ Paradis, a wise old hand, counseled commanders, commanding officers and principle staff officers re: letting this _blame game_ get out of hand.  We, the army in the field, were, he instructed, to become a huge retraining facility.  He and his personnel staff would try to get units on a two year schedule which would allow most units to stretch the traditional individual => team => sub-unit => unit training cycle to accommodate a much, much longer (nearly a year long) individual + team training period which, it was hoped, would be sufficient to rectify the problem.  It was a step in the right direction.

We were not the only army with problems.  Our good friends and neighbours to the South were, if anything, worse off in the ‘60s, ‘70s and ‘80s, I think.  Only the Brits – who had a priceless low level leadership development 'facility' in Northern Ireland - seemed to have their priorities straight.

I think – I hope – things are turning around, fairly swiftly and fairly smoothly, too.  I do not advocate a return to the _good old days_ – they weren’t that good.  I do hope that we will recover a model of _service_ which puts _service_ and _pride_ and _respect_ right up there with good salaries, good training, good living conditions and good retirement (and transition) benefits as _incentives_ to come in and stay in.


----------



## S McKee

Nice post Edward, certainly puts things in perspective. I joined in the early 80's, our generation pointed to the Charter as being another nail in the coffin of military discipline. Not that I'm anti-human rights or Charter, however it was another push towards the "me, my, I" culture and less "us, we, team" culture that any armed service needs to function. Plus there was the old boys club who LIKED NDHQ; career minded officers who were very good at looking out for themselves and forgot that the army is all about looking after the Cpls and Privates, not about securing the big retirement job with transport Canada. I remember my Dad telling me one time during his obligatory NDHQ stint, that the army should erect a bronze statue of a private soldier at the main entrance to NDHQ and every general should be made to kiss it's a$$ everymorning just to remind them who made them generals and who they're there for.  If our leadership did what it was suppose to back then i.e. supporting soldiers we wouldn't have had to go through the SCONDVA hearings. We're still a military of home owners etc. like you mentioned in your post, probably because overall the military demographic is little older. Hopefully with the shake-up that the new CDS has begun we'll get our priorities straightened out. I want one of those briefcases though...


----------



## gnplummer421

Speaking of Generals, what is the ratio these days? When I got out in '95, it was something ridiculous like 125 Generals for 48,000 troops, is it still this bad? And I also hope that there is a big shake up at NDHQ. I am bitter because I had to spend almost a year there (a low point in my caeer, I retired after that fiasco) that place is such a money waste IMHO.

Gnplummer


----------



## GOF

Just joined your forum.  I started in the Army in 1965, then saw the light and switched to the Air Force.  But anyway, what my post is about is:  As a young lad going through training, they scared the crap out of us...the word was Valcartier.

We were told the DB was run by the Vandoos and they hated us English speaking Air Force types.  I know it kept me on the straight and narrow.

I intend to do a lot more reading...


----------



## geo

GOF, the detention barracks are still there but not being used for long term guests.

Vandoos don't have anything against the Anglos.... but Airforce - Ewwwwww!

everything you've heard are old wives tales BTW..... things to scare Air force types when we read em a bed time story 

Chimo!


----------



## GOF

Good one...the bed time story. ;D  And what is wrong with the Air Force... I think it was Churchill who coined the phrase, "Gentlemen of the Air Force." :cheers:

As I said, the stories kept a number of us on the straight and narrow, and out of trouble.

Thanks


----------



## geo

And the moral of the story is..... never let a Vandoo read you a bed time story 
Chimo!


----------



## Sig_Des

hmm...I grew up with a Vandoo reading me bed time stories....one who, I recently discovered, spent a short period of time in DB at La Citadelle...I'll need to get the details on that story


----------



## geo

No DBs in LaCitadelle.....

But there's always the Guard House.


----------



## FastEddy

GOF said:
			
		

> Just joined your forum.  I started in the Army in 1965, then saw the light and switched to the Air Force.  But anyway, what my post is about is:  As a young lad going through training, they scared the crap out of us...the word was Valcartier.
> 
> We were told the DB was run by the Vandoos and they hated us English speaking Air Force types.  I know it kept me on the straight and narrow.
> 
> I intend to do a lot more reading...




Say what you want about the RCAF, in ten years, I never arrested or charged one of their Service.

We didn't get many RCAF types at Nr. 1 FDB in Soest Germany, but the few we did were pretty good types and played the game without any problems (they were a little out of shape on the whole).

In two years we had only one RCN type which I and another Staff had to go to Dortmund to take into custody this poor Sailor being flown in from London . We had to spend the night in Dortmund and the RCN Regulating CPO Escort had not signed the SD over yet. The CPO had a Bottle of uncut Navy Grog which he said he had saved from his personal daily issue. Well later the following afternoon two Provost arrived  at Nr.1 FDB  with the SD in tow but with unimaginable headaches. This Sailor was not only in good  shape but took to the Ridgit Routine with almost a flare. He was a credit to his Service.

I wish I could say the same for the majority of the Corps that populated the facility.


----------



## Guppy

This is my first visit to this site.  I spent some time in DB back in the mid 1980s.  30 days for AWOL.  Interesting to read posts on this subject.  Bread and Water as a punishment certainly was still in effect during my stay.  Also a ridiculous ceremony involving the memorization and recital of Fire Orders just before bed.  I remember playing the game "Murder Ball" in a snow filled courtyard with fellow inmates.  Weird stuff!


----------



## PigPen

Does anyone know if there is a video that depicts the reality of CFSPDB, from the point of view of the detainee. I am looking for this to show my students at the fleet school.

Thanks


----------



## time expired

I would just like to thank E.R.Cambell for that excellent post,sums
up the late 60,70s atmosphere so well.Charging someone in those
days could be hazardous to your career,if you in anyway were seen
to have infringed on the "human rights" of the chargee you could
be the one carrying the can.Many NCOs didn't take the chance, preferring
to get the individual at PER time.Not a good way to enforce discipline.
                                    Regards


----------



## R933ex

PigPen said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there is a video that depicts the reality of CFSPDB, from the point of view of the detainee. I am looking for this to show my students at the fleet school.
> 
> Thanks



PigPen,

ITV out of Edmonton did a 2 part documentry at Club Ed in the late 80s, you might be able to get a copy from them. If not PM me I happen to have a copy of it.


----------



## Sig_Des

PigPen said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there is a video that depicts the reality of CFSPDB, from the point of view of the detainee. I am looking for this to show my students at the fleet school.
> 
> Thanks



I seem to remember an old CF video about the DB...I think it was called "In the out door"


----------



## 1feral1

Bread and water.

16oz of bread a day, and all the water you can drink.

I was told it was a long time since someone was on bread and water, but that was in the 80's so anything is possible, ha!

The return rate in early 80's was 3%.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Rifleman62

We had a tour of the Edm facility during a course in '85. They had one officer in detention at that time. If I remmember correctly he was still an officer, but no rank on uniform (had to resign commission personally). Segregated from the other population. Also had females. Routine was drill and PT in the AM, and PT and drill in the PM. Bread and water was on the menu. Had to earn points to get a smokes. Stainless steel abolution facilities. The "Staff" as all the staff was addressed, said the inmates had to mark time continiously while shaving etc (possibly pulling our legs). Some of staff was infantry cbt arms.

The Sean Connery’s , 1965 movie The Hill gives a good idea of ‘the Glass House” as DB was called in the olden days - Powerful WWII film about a prison camp for errant soldiers - their suffering and degradation - in the North African desert. Connery gives an outstanding performance as an unjustly busted sergeant.

National Defence Audiovisual Database
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/avdb/default_e.asp

IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR - CANADIAN FORCES SERVICE PRISON AND DETENTION BARRACKS.


Catalogue Number:   	34-0285
Production Code:   	DL91057VE
Subject Matter:   	SEC - Security/Sûreté
  	   		  
Year Produced:   	1991
Language:   	E - English
Duration:   	25:18 (mmm:ss)
Details:   	Colour, Video
  	

Synopsis

CANADIAN FORCES SERVICE PRISON AND DETENTION BARRACKS A look at the Canadian Forces Service Prison and Detention Barracks in Edmonton. This prison program is designed to instill self-discipline in the inmates and allow them to return to their units at the end of their sentences with a "clean slate".


----------



## Sig_Des

I knew I remembered the name. Thanks for confirming that I'm not completely out to lunch, Rifleman


----------



## PigPen

Thank you for that information. I finally received the video and unfortunately I found it unsuitable to show my students. Much like many other CF videos I found it to be a little silly. That is to say it and would not have the impact I was looking for. I am still on the search. I might even encourage the Chain to have a new one produced.




			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> We had a tour of the Edm facility during a course in '85. They had one officer in detention at that time. If I remmember correctly he was still an officer, but no rank on uniform (had to resign commission personally). Segregated from the other population. Also had females. Routine was drill and PT in the AM, and PT and drill in the PM. Bread and water was on the menu. Had to earn points to get a smokes. Stainless steel abolution facilities. The "Staff" as all the staff was addressed, said the inmates had to mark time continiously while shaving etc (possibly pulling our legs). Some of staff was infantry cbt arms.
> 
> The Sean Connery’s , 1965 movie The Hill gives a good idea of ‘the Glass House” as DB was called in the olden days - Powerful WWII film about a prison camp for errant soldiers - their suffering and degradation - in the North African desert. Connery gives an outstanding performance as an unjustly busted sergeant.
> 
> National Defence Audiovisual Database
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/avdb/default_e.asp
> 
> IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR - CANADIAN FORCES SERVICE PRISON AND DETENTION BARRACKS.
> 
> 
> Catalogue Number:   	34-0285
> Production Code:   	DL91057VE
> Subject Matter:   	SEC - Security/Sûreté
> 
> Year Produced:   	1991
> Language:   	E - English
> Duration:   	25:18 (mmm:ss)
> Details:   	Colour, Video
> 
> 
> Synopsis
> 
> CANADIAN FORCES SERVICE PRISON AND DETENTION BARRACKS A look at the Canadian Forces Service Prison and Detention Barracks in Edmonton. This prison program is designed to instill self-discipline in the inmates and allow them to return to their units at the end of their sentences with a "clean slate".


----------



## gnplummer421

Rifleman,

I was there for 30 days in '83. Although Bread and Water was on the menu for anyone stuck in "the hole" (sound proof/light proof padded room) we ate like kings. How else could you do all that PT. (there was lots.) One cig after every meal unless you screwed up. No talking at any time unless you were addressing "the Eyeball" on the post by the staff office. (eye contact with DB staff was not allowed as you were too low as a detainee to address them directly) We did not mark time while shaving. We did do many station jobs at night. (IE waxing the floor by hand using a wad of wax inside a thin towel and making swirls)

Once you completed two weeks the privileges would get better, but could quickly be taken away again. Everything was driven by good behavior. If you shut your yap and followed directions, you flew under the Radar. All in all a crappy place to be. I arrived there a bit flabby, and left there in the best shape of my life. Even though I screwed up, I feel the experience made me a better person, and luckily, the Army kept me.

Gnplummer421


----------



## Rifleman62

Gnplummer,

Thanks for the info. My comments were based on a very short tour long ago, and old fading memories. Obviously having graduated from the program, and continued on successfully, the CF met it's aim. Thanks for sharing your experiences.


----------



## geo

My only experience with the DBs was the one in Valcatraz.  As an Orderly Sgt - visiting one of our boys who was "inside" after having stolen & cracked up the COs jeep on a joyride.

- Slightly beligerent going into the cells, he was somewhat more cooperative coming out.

Ahhh... the good old days


----------



## Shec

Years ago, while enjoying the good life in scenic Wainwright,  I picked up a paperback novel called Movin' On,  written by the late Bill Meilen - a noted writer/actor who lived in Vancouver,  in the Canex.  Story of a Brit private during the Korean War who drew 6 months in the Commonwealth DB in Japan.  Pretty graphic rendition of life in the digger that reflects many of the anecdotes on this thread.  I can only presume that the author, himself a Brit Korean War vet, was a guest.


----------



## geo

Guest or host


----------



## Shec

Evidently a guest:

http://www.trashfiction.co.uk/moving_on.html

Maybe I should be one too "In that he did misrepresent the title"  - it's Moving On, not Movin' On.

BTW, as I recall the one, truly sympathetic, Staff was a VanDoo.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Shec said:
			
		

> BTW, as I recall the one, truly sympathetic, Staff was a VanDoo.



Not sympathetic, just playing his part >...................hehehe.


----------



## geo

A sympathetic Vandoo jailer?

Naw!  Say it aint so! - probably something lost in translation.
Vandoo was prolly telling the guy to go to hell while smiling like a cheshire cat...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Bon Cop, Bad Cop


----------



## alfie

Almost got there myself, lockup in 76 in the RP shack before trial...learned what good reading Readers Digest is. Lucky for me my Senior NCO stood up for me and all I got was a fine and sent on the next plane to the middle east.
I had an instructor I'll call "Red" also a RCEME type (must be something with the trade back then) he did 90 days at Ed for a little stunt in the barracks. Seems Red didn't like the idea of stripping all the wax off the floor so he sparyed lighter fluid and lit it up. He told me I was lucky to get the fine and to smarten up, considering I was just 18 at the time I got myself corrected...well at least till the next time I hit the mess and had too many.


----------



## sheppie

Hi

I am curious as to what takes place in a military detention or is that classified?
I am assuming lots of grunt work etc.


----------



## Rodahn

Lots of drill and polishing.....


----------



## sheppie

LOL ok I am reading between the words here and think I can figure the rest out


----------



## garb811

Here, have fun reading.
REGULATIONS FOR SERVICE PRISONS AND DETENTION BARRACKS


----------



## Rodahn

"use any abusive, threatening, insulting, profane or other improper language towards an inmate;"

Well that has certainly changed since I was there.......


----------



## Kat Stevens

Rodahn said:
			
		

> "use any abusive, threatening, insulting, profane or other improper language towards an inmate;"
> 
> Well that has certainly changed since I was there.......




No kidding.  I was going to order name tags with either "Puke" or "Turd" on them when I got out.


----------



## geo

Heh...
I can just picture it.....
Staff standing there in front of you saying, with hands held up to mouth: 
"Oh, goodness gracious me, what have you done now Pte Bloggins!?!"


----------



## Neill McKay

Rodahn said:
			
		

> "use any abusive, threatening, insulting, profane or other improper language towards an inmate;"
> 
> Well that has certainly changed since I was there.......



I recall something similar in the standing orders at CFLRS years ago.  It was observed religiously by the DS for about the first two or three days...


----------



## zerstoren037

gnplummer421 said:
			
		

> Rifleman,
> 
> I was there for 30 days in '83. Although Bread and Water was on the menu for anyone stuck in "the hole" (sound proof/light proof padded room) we ate like kings. How else could you do all that PT. (there was lots.) One cig after every meal unless you screwed up. No talking at any time unless you were addressing "the Eyeball" on the post by the staff office. (eye contact with DB staff was not allowed as you were too low as a detainee to address them directly) We did not mark time while shaving. We did do many station jobs at night. (IE waxing the floor by hand using a wad of wax inside a thin towel and making swirls)
> 
> Once you completed two weeks the privileges would get better, but could quickly be taken away again. Everything was driven by good behavior. If you shut your yap and followed directions, you flew under the Radar. All in all a crappy place to be. I arrived there a bit flabby, and left there in the best shape of my life. Even though I screwed up, I feel the experience made me a better person, and luckily, the Army kept me.
> 
> Gnplummer421



I've been to Club Ed before. Got out in Feb of 2008. At the time there were 6 of us and we all came in at the same hour. Apparently, according to the staff, that's the most there has been in about 5 years before that.

After reading what you've typed out, I guess i'm lucky to have visited after the new millennium.
Our basic day was 10 seconds to get outside of the cell after they open, 10 minutes for however many people there are to shower under 4 shower-holes, which are pipes hanging out of the walls, nothing more.
10 minutes to clean cell, and prepare all kit in properly measured sizes and positions on your rack.
30 minutes to eat breakfast, do dishes and mop the floor. The staff tended to have leniency with this timing only. We sometimes stretched this out to up to 45-50 minutes.
During the day; after breakfast, we would do what seemed to be joe jobs. Cleaning A, B, C, and D wings along with their cells. Although, we never had to clean "The hole". We shoveled snow in behind the DB where the 5 minute break area was for our smoke breaks or breaks for nothing if we didn't earn the 150 or so points needed to have 1 smoke a day.
There were also old military gear with all of the metal parts painted black, we had to scrape it off with a nail and polish it to standard, along with the galvanized steel pail it came in. [If anyone ever has to do any time here... I found out that the paint is water soluble, if you use the water from your boot polish can, you can just wash it off with the help of your kiwi rag. Don't do it too fast though, they'll make you do it again and you'll be left using spit, and being sneaky. Should take about a week to finish.]
We would also do hour PT stints with the help of PSP staff on Wednesdays and Fridays and used the gym-room for the remainder.
Lunch and supper preparation were the same as breakfast and they're also followed by dishes and mopping.
As for what we ate, it was great. Each Friday we got to choose from a menu, what we would eat each day, for each meal. Soup, drink, main dish, fruit, and desert (The chocolate cake is really damn dry, get pie). We could usually take up an hour every Friday making up our meals, it was great.
We had time after supper to do laundry every night. While our laundry is being cleaned, we would attend sessions with a padre, read in the library if we earned the points needed, or work on our painted kit more.
Days really seemed to fly by because it was always laid out for you. Smoking wasn't a big problem, you're always busy.

Other than that, It's simple. The first full day; after laundry, a detainee left a wool sock in the dryer. We were approached from behind, while standing marking time for a reason we didn't know yet, by a staff making animal noises and wearing the sock as puppet. We all laughed and proceeded to kiss the floor 21 times every few minutes for the next half hour.
You don't have the right of speech which you're in the DB, but you can always just whisper to the guy in the cell across from you, or to the guy next to you in the laundry room. When you have group sessions with the padre, they are supposed to be between padre and the detainee speaking, but we always got away with group discussions about nothing. I remember talking with the padre about guitar hero. Yes. Guitar Hero.

Well, i've done too much typing for now and i'm running out of thoughts, so... yeah, try to stay away from Club Ed, and especially "the hole" if you do find yourself there. They CAN and DO still feed your bread, lard and water

Oh yes, as for the points, you can get 7 a day. Chances are you'll lose 5 within the first half hour of the day when the "SIR"s are around.


----------



## LineJumper

Not that DB is a good thing, yet good to see 'Tradition Lives' outside of Greisbach.


----------



## dh101

Canadian Forces Service Prison and Detention Barracks





http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/03-00-eng.asp


----------



## kawa11

> ...*promoting the successful reintegration of the service offender back into the military* or civilian community, as appropriate.


What exactly does one do to be put into prison/detention but still not enough to immediately be discharged?

(not like I'm testing the fence - just find the statement to be contradictary)


----------



## PuckChaser

kawa11 said:
			
		

> What exactly does one do to be put into prison/detention but still not enough to immediately be discharged?
> 
> (not like I'm testing the fence - just find the statement to be contradictary)



Knew a guy who did time for assaulting another member of his unit. Unless you're sentenced to dismissal by the courts martial, then you get to stay in the CF.


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Knew a guy who did time for assaulting another member of his unit. Unless you're sentenced to dismissal by the courts martial, then you get to stay in the CF.



There may be administrative action in addition to disciplinary action which may result in release.


----------



## Blackadder1916

kawa11 said:
			
		

> What exactly does one do to be put into prison/detention but still not enough to immediately be discharged?
> 
> (not like I'm testing the fence - just find the statement to be contradictary)



Everything from being absent from work to (in the rare case) murder.  Generally, everyone who is sentenced by a military court to a period of detention or imprisonment will go to Edmonton, save those who do shorter sentences in the local guardhouse.  Even those whose sentence includes dismissal from the CF may initially go to the DB and remain there until such time as review/appeal is completed.  If the sentence is in excess of two years less a day, once the review/appeal/administrative processes are completed, the sentence is done in a federal correctional facility.  In that way, it is similar to the relationship/difference between provincial and federal pens.

I've been personally acquainted with individuals who have served time in Edmonton and were not released following completion of their sentence for AWOL, possession of a controlled substance, assault, theft, usury and fraud.  I've also known persons whose release from the CF coincided with the completion of their sentences (which did not include dismissal from the service).


----------



## Slotbandit

I was posted to Edmonton detention barracks for 90 days in 83. Was convicted on a summary trial, and was not guilty of any of the charges, but MP who was in charge of interviews and questioning didn't like me too much as he knew I knew he was guilty of the same things being thrown at me and I told him so during questioning at the MP shack, so his stenographer stopped taking notes and he told me I could leave the room. Then during my trial he tells the Colonel I stormed out of the questioning room. Also the detention barracks had my name on the arrival board 1 week prior to my trial, so there was no chance of beating it, even though I showed at the trial I was no where near Alberta at the time of the incident(s). So you don't have to do anything to be sent to Edmonton. 
The 1st 2 weeks we were assigned to "a" wing, only a cig after each meal, no talking, no work parties, clean inside the prison only. Then on to "b" wing and get a extra smoke before bed and stay up 1 hour later. Can go out on day trips with work party. I worked in the kitchen, so the 6 of us had our own dorm room (cell for 6). We used to bring the kitchen radio up at night and when the French guards were on shift, one old ***** would come in at night and yell at us, "You B wing, you no radio" and take it back to the kitchen, we would take it back the next day again. 
A couple of guys were in and out of the black cell regularly when I was there, they made it a game or a joke with the guards. 3 days on bread and water and 23 hours locked in.
One guy, who liked to cause trouble tried tattooing guys on their hands to show jail tats. Him and 2 guys helping went around with india ink and a pencil with a pin in it. 
You were allowed 3 strikes and then off to the black cell. I had 4 strikes on me and the Sgt told me to report to his office later in the day, I knew I was off to the black cell so I just didn't go and I guess he forgot about me as it never came up again, lucky me.
One guy was sentenced there for 2 yrs less a day, he was the longest sentence when I was there. If you were over 90 days sentence, then after "b" wing was "c" wing, large dorm and those guys just hung around all day, nothing to do for them.
Staring at the "eyes" on the post at the guard station to ask to use the washroom, sometimes they made you stand quite a while before asking you what you wanted, and once you stood there, you couldn't just walk away if they ignored you.
Brushing your teeth while someone took a crap behind you with no stall around the toilet was great.
A master corporal from boot camp (Cornwallis) came in there when I was there, I remember him from Cornwallis, he used to get drunk and come in the barracks at night and be an *** to all the recruits, thought he was a tough guy, but turns out he wasn't so tough in Edmonton, knocked him down a peg or two.
Any questions ask me,
I got out of Edmonton in 61 days due to the points system, serve 2/3rds of your sentence if perfect score, I messed up for 1 extra day.
Went back a few years ago to see detention barracks and that side of the base is all gone now, didn't know where the new prison went to.


I have boxes of documents, and spent 1000's of dollars to fight them, but as some of you will soon figure out, the Military has their own set of laws and the Canadian Criminal code or the laws that govern the rest of Canada do not apply to any of you still in the military. So remember they will do with you as they will , and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. 
So kid all you like, (comments below) but in my case I have proof that I was innocent and went through a Kangaroo court in the Military on charges that would have never seen the light of day in a civilian court.
As well, all the guys I was there with all owned up to what they were sent there for. 
Late for work = sent to a maximum security prison, blowing up a barrack block = sent to a maximum security prison. This was the range of 'guilty' people. I'm sure y'all could find a place somewhere in between to be sentenced yourselves, if you happen across an NCO or Officer that takes a disliking to you during your career, they can make up anything to send you, good luck.


----------



## Brasidas

Slotbandit said:
			
		

> I was posted to Edmonton detention barracks for 90 days in 83. Was convicted on a summary trial, and was not guilty of any of the charges, but MP who was in charge of interviews and questioning didn't like me too much as he knew I knew he was guilty of the same things being thrown at me and I told him so during questioning at the MP shack, so his stenographer stopped taking notes and he told me I could leave the room. Then during my trial he tells the Colonel I stormed out of the questioning room. Also the detention barracks had my name on the arrival board 1 week prior to my trial, so there was no chance of beating it, even though I showed at the trial I was no where near Alberta at the time of the incident(s). So you don't have to do anything to be sent to Edmonton.
> The 1st 2 weeks we were assigned to "a" wing, only a cig after each meal, no talking, no work parties, clean inside the prison only. Then on to "b" wing and get a extra smoke before bed and stay up 1 hour later. Can go out on day trips with work party. I worked in the kitchen, so the 6 of us had our own dorm room (cell for 6). We used to bring the kitchen radio up at night and when the French guards were on shift, one old ***** would come in at night and yell at us, "You B wing, you no radio" and take it back to the kitchen, we would take it back the next day again.
> A couple of guys were in and out of the black cell regularly when I was there, they made it a game or a joke with the guards. 3 days on bread and water and 23 hours locked in.
> One guy, who liked to cause trouble tried tattooing guys on their hands to show jail tats. Him and 2 guys helping went around with india ink and a pencil with a pin in it.
> You were allowed 3 strikes and then off to the black cell. I had 4 strikes on me and the Sgt told me to report to his office later in the day, I knew I was off to the black cell so I just didn't go and I guess he forgot about me as it never came up again, lucky me.
> One guy was sentenced there for 2 yrs less a day, he was the longest sentence when I was there. If you were over 90 days sentence, then after "b" wing was "c" wing, large dorm and those guys just hung around all day, nothing to do for them.
> Staring at the "eyes" on the post at the guard station to ask to use the washroom, sometimes they made you stand quite a while before asking you what you wanted, and once you stood there, you couldn't just walk away if they ignored you.
> Brushing your teeth while someone took a crap behind you with no stall around the toilet was great.
> A master corporal from boot camp (Cornwallis) came in there when I was there, I remember him from Cornwallis, he used to get drunk and come in the barracks at night and be an *** to all the recruits, thought he was a tough guy, but turns out he wasn't so tough in Edmonton, knocked him down a peg or two.
> Any questions ask me,
> I got out of Edmonton in 61 days due to the points system, serve 2/3rds of your sentence if perfect score, I messed up for 1 extra day.
> When back a few years ago to see detention barracks and that side of the base is all gone now, didn't know where the new prison went to.



Its now on 195 Ave, by the giant warehouse on the south end of Namao


----------



## Tibbson

Slotbandit said:
			
		

> I was posted to Edmonton detention barracks for 90 days in 83. Was convicted on a summary trial, and was not guilty of any of the charges, but MP who was in charge of interviews and questioning didn't like me too much...



One thing I learned long ago is that EVERY prisoner is innocent and was railroaded.  Take comfort in the fact you are in good company.


----------



## RedcapCrusader

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> One thing I learned long ago is that EVERY prisoner is innocent and was railroaded.  Take comfort in the fact you are in good company.



Really? EVERY prisoner is innocent? So I guess that CIC Captain that molested cadets is innocent then...


----------



## cupper

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Really? EVERY prisoner is innocent? So I guess that CIC Captain that molested cadets is innocent then...



It's true. There has never been a guilty member sent to Edmonton. You can ask any one of them and they will all tell you they were innocent.


----------



## RedcapCrusader

cupper said:
			
		

> It's true. There has never been a guilty member sent to Edmonton. You can ask any one of them and they will all tell you they were innocent.



AH, hahaha, I get it now...


----------

