# Tell me what you think of this?



## peanutshel (20 Mar 2002)

This appeared in one of our discussions on the DND newsgroup.
I gave my opinion, but no-one liked the word "whiner"...
"I seem to be, like many others, wondering how the military can justify
paying reservists 15% less then that of our regular forces couterparts,
while we still do the same amount of work and put in the same hours.
Personally I am on call 24/7 but as of 01 Apr 02 I will be receivng
approximately $7000 less than someone doing the same job as me.  I don‘t
believe that I am the only reservist currently on class "C" who is looking
at the drop in income that willo result if this policy goes into effect.
Unfortunately it seem to me that we as reservists are valued less for our
work than that of our regular force counterparts.

If I‘m wrong in this what I‘ve said please tell me so I can see the fla  :crybaby:  w in
my thinking."


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## Gung_Ho20 (20 Mar 2002)

I totally agree with you, Â¸alot of reg force guys don‘t understand whats like to be a resevist. I  worked with the regular (an infantry Battalion) for many months on class A, most of their days they spend doing nothing while us reservists everytime we come to the armoury we are expected to do alot of things in a short amount of time. Reg force are paid to work out 2-3 hours every morning, if they get injured during that time they get free medical attention while reservists we have to find free time after work  to get in shape, and if you are injured you are by your own. Remember Canada and Australia are the two only countries that have more regular  than reservist in their forces in the World.


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## Doug VT (20 Mar 2002)

The pay in the reserves has improved a great deal in the last 8 years, but that‘s never enough is it?  I doubt that the reserves will ever get pay equal to that of the regular force, be happy with what you have.  A reserve soldier will move up the ranks twice as fast as his regular counterpart while only putting in a fraction of the time.  Saying that, the regular soldier usually has a great deal more experience than the reserve soldier of the same rank.  I‘m sure that there are a handful of reserve pers will still believe that it would be justified to receive the same pay, but I can‘t see it happening.


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## Yard Ape (21 Mar 2002)

a Cpl in a rifle section does the same job, has the same responsibilities, and the same acountability as any other Cpl in a rifle section.  When deployed overseas, it does not matter if he is Reg or  Res.

   Yard Ape


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## Doug VT (21 Mar 2002)

In some aspects, yes, but don‘t kid yourself.  A reservist cannot get the range of qualifications that a regular can, not that it‘s their fault.  Lets go with the same pay, doesn‘t really matter to me.  How would you like to make it all equal, like it takes 48 months to make Cpl.  Sure, a full day(class A,B, or C)can equal a full day, but a half day equals a quarter day.  So lets say that a typical month would be about 5 days. 40 days for the year. 10 days for March break.  If your lucky, 60 days for the summer. And 2 days for December.  So on average about 112 days a year(not including tours or call-outs)  It would only take you 13 years at that rate to get equal time for equal pay.  Not very reasonable is it?


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## Jungle (21 Mar 2002)

I believe res F pers do not have to pay certain things reg F pers have to: pension plan, UI... ? This may explain the 85% in gross pay, but isn‘t it nearly equal in clear amounts ? I remember being in a res F platoon on a depl, and res F pers were making more than their reg F equivalent.


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## enfield (21 Mar 2002)

My pay sheet shows deductions for Employment Insurance, Federal Tax, and CPP. Mess fees come off one or twice a year as well.

A Regular does of course have, on average, more experience and training.
What about the Regs who cannot deploy? What about the Regs who do not have maintain the same level of profiency as Reservists are expected? What about the skills and knowledge a reservist often brings? What about the pesronal sacrifices of free time that a reservist often makes to train?

Last summer as a private I did the exact same job as a Reg Force private had been doing before me. Why did he get paid more?
If a Reg F. Sgt. and a Res Sgt. are teaching on the same course, why is one paid less?

Reservists should be paid the same as Regs for the time they work. Since we only work one night a week, one weekend a month (actually, not any more, budgets are cut waaaay back) we are tsill paid less than our Regular counterparts.

Class B is an especially silly notion.


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## Jungle (21 Mar 2002)

I was not talking about CPP, but the "superannuation" or military pension. That is costing most people around $200/month. Now it takes nothing away from me to pay res F pers 100% reg F salaries. But then, you should also take 30 months to get a hook, and 48 to make Cpl... Oh and no more 8 weekend courses in your hometown... no no, you will take an 8 week (full time) small arms course in Gagetown, like the rest of us... total force, remember ? You see Enfield, it‘s easy to b**ch, but this is the kind of debate where nobody wins, because we do not make these policies. I appreciate that people like you take time to serve our country, but accept that there are differences in res F and reg F service. And if the Mo don‘t pay enough, join the reg F, we are looking for a few good... uh... persons!!! (new and improved Politically Correct version)


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## enfield (22 Mar 2002)

There should be more of an effort made to make courses equal - one army, one standard, or at least something close to that. Of course, I doubt it will ever get equal, but the gap is too big. Especially in terms of the equipment disparity.
The difficulty the army faces in combining regs and reservists is huge, and something the other branches have overcome. 

When two soldiers are doing the exact same job, why aren‘t they being paid the same?
Why is the guy in NDHQ being paid more than a reservist, when a reservist has to maintain a higher standard?
What good is a Regular who won‘t or can‘t deploy? Why is he paid more than a Reservist who is willing to deploy? There are reservists who very summer go across the country for work side-by-side with regulars, but they get paid less than a Regular who won‘t re-locate.
A reservist on a Jump Course (or another Reg course)is paid 15% less than a regular, even though it‘s the exact same course with the exact same standard.


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## Jungle (22 Mar 2002)

Well, I‘m afraid we can‘t help you on this board... you should try writing to "question corner" in the personel newsletter, they are usually good with these questions...


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## Doug VT (22 Mar 2002)

Consider yourself lucky if you get on a Reg course, especially a Para course.  I don‘t know what reservists HAVE to maintain a higher standard; maybe you have an unusually high opinion of yourself?  A higher standard than whom?  Do you think that when we do up our training schedule that we ask ourselves "Hey, What are the Reserves up too?  I hope that we can keep up with their fantastic proficiency" Do you have you head up youâ€™re a**? A Reservist has the choice to deploy, what about the sacrifices that a Reg makes when he deploys?  I‘m away more than I‘m home. I would definitely bet that there are a ****  of a lot more reserves then Regs that would not deploy.  If my unit is going to deploy, I don‘t look at it as if I have a choice, I signed up, I go.  Most people feel the same way.  Those who don‘t deploy usually have a good reason not to, or they‘re just junk that will be disposed of eventually.  
Face it; Regs and Reserves are different, in more ways than one.  You can‘t compare the two.  To answer your question(s): Reg force gets paid more because they are REGULAR FORCE!  Reserves get paid less because they are just that, RESERVES.  It‘s that simple.  Stop whining, youâ€™re showing us a lot about yourself.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2002)

:boring:  Tsk, tsk... We just seems to get over this Reg/Res - Us/Them stuff on one thread and we‘re back at each other‘s throats over something we can‘t control, on another. It‘s not who‘s worth more, who‘s the best,  who does more work, courses, etc. We have common enemies to discuss, govt funding, lack of support, etc. We also have good discourse on gen mil subjects like equipment. Let‘s try keep it that way. Having said that...  

OK, now my $00.01/4 (US funds)
Most Reservist are not in it for the money, they would be there if you only fed and clothed them and let them shoot and blow stuff up. They use they‘re Cl A money to buy beer and tell lies to each other in the mess. If a person is as competent as they feel they are, and they support themselves and maybe a family on a military Cl B/C wage, they should do a component transfer or look for other work, not try make a career of it. Mo‘ pay and Cl B/C  jobs, like overtime in the civie world, are not guaranteed. Not good career planning.


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## bossi (23 Mar 2002)

I agree - I‘m tired of this continual carping - it just "sets me off" ...

Having said that, I must confess - I find it horribly cynical, even unethical when the Reg Force is forced time and time again to meet manning shortfalls by calling out reservists on fulltime service (i.e. the government should give the Force the funding they need in order to hire the number of troops needed - period - point final).

If there is a fulltime requirement, then hire somebody fulltime - quit abusing reservists like some type of "office overload" or "hire ‘em, fire ‘em" casual labour pool.

As for systemic/endemic abuse, the callout world is "stacked" against the reservist - callous Reg Force boss is only too quick to label a reservist as an admin burden, whereas they‘ll bend over backwards to help out, even cover up for a Reg Force buddy (I‘ve seen it happen all too often - Reg Force guy has a drinking problem, is getting a divorce, has been convicted of a criminal offence but needs only a few more months in order to collect their pension ... whatever - they look after their own.  But when a reservist on callout has the same problem ... "oh, gee - we don‘t need you any more").

In the same vein, the new policy of "limited liability" is a crock - a reservist on callout is still expected to "jump through the hoops" (... or else ...).  It‘s simply another cynical move by the ruling elite to cut the payroll, at the expense of the reservists.

And, my final bitch for the day - reservists STILL have no pension, even though part-time federal civil servants have had one for several years (i.e. part-time typists, clerks, janitors, gardeners, etc.).  The only reason the CF is finally looking at a real pension for the reserves is because they needed a way to provide a continued pension contribution plan for Reg Force members on "academic sabbaticals".


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## Doug VT (23 Mar 2002)

What I was saying was that you‘re head must be up your a** if you‘re comparing Reserve standards/proficiency to Reg standards/proficiency.  You just can‘t compare the two because they‘re still two very different organisations.  The comment was directed towards Enfield, and anyone else who feels the same.  Being the top in your organization is great, just remember that it‘s in YOUR organization.


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## enfield (23 Mar 2002)

What I was alluding to when I mentione standards of proficiency was something that was raised on the LFRR forum. Personnel in NDHQ and various staff jobs do not have to maintain a certain level of proficiency, when soldiers in the reserve do.
I was not saying that reservists have better skills than regulars, and I apologize if I gave that impression.
I was certainly not saying that I personally have superior skills.

The 15% pay difference isn‘t that big a deal in itself. But it is part of the reserves being seen as second-class personnel or a labour pool as Bossi said. The Mo‘ is essential to the Army - they‘re asking for up to 1200 Reservists for this summer, on top of the Roto 11 CRIC and augmentees - and the Militia needs to be treated more seriously by the Gods that allocates resources. In an Army this small, I don‘t think there‘s room for 2 classes of soldier.


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## Marauder (23 Mar 2002)

"Being the top in your organization is great, just remember that it‘s in YOUR organization."

Hmmmm, and there I was was operating under the assumption that I was a soldier in the Canadian Army, who would go where the gov tells me, when they tell me, regardless of component. 
I suppose Orwell was right: Some people are simply more equal than others.

Perhaps we should yank all those "amateur" Reservists back off Rotos and domestic call outs to not interefere with the professionals?


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## Sharpey (25 Mar 2002)

By the end of my second year in I had obtained 2 QL4‘s and was still a Trooper! I just got in at the right time I guess. 
 Been waiting for 4 years now for my other QL4 RECCE............waiting..........waiting..........now I‘m off topic.


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## Yard Ape (25 Mar 2002)

> Originally posted by Doug:
> [qb]  Lets go with the same pay, doesn‘t really matter to me.  How would you like to make it all equal, like it takes 48 months to make Cpl?[/qb]


It is not an uncommon practice to pay reservists at the base pay level for their rank (regardless of the incentive they should be recieving) when on tour.  So it will work out to less that 85% pay.  

. . . Or perhapse you would like to see a pool of cheap labour that our government can use to futher hack away at the size of our reg force?  After all, why pay to keep one soldier all the time at 100% when you can have one at less than 85% and only pay when you want him?

   Yard Ape


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## nigeljp (25 Mar 2002)

There‘s a young guy in my unit who is leaving this week on roto 11, He‘s been in the reserves for about 9 months. He did QL2/3 last summer, a driver‘s course in October, and started pre-training in November. Probably gets the record for quickest on tour. If he‘s on the ball over there he will probably be asked if he wants to transfer right into the battalion after the tour, so in 15 months of service he could be a qualified reg force inf pvt with one tour under his belt. As for pay, class C to reservists on operations is fair, and the current 85%  index on class A and B is also very fair, after all we are free agents when it comes to choosing what work we want. I think a more important issue than pay rates for the reserves is a defined role and legislation to back up what that role is meant to accomplish. That‘s my two cents (1.7 cents in the Mo‘)


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## Gung_Ho20 (25 Mar 2002)

I find alot of reservists resent unfortunatly to be considered as second class soldier compared to the reg force. One must admit that most of World War I and II were fought by reservists. From Vimy to Normandy, reservists from across Canada rose to the occasion to fight for their country. Latest battle on the list was Kapyong during the Korean war where the 2nd battalion of PPCLI (composed only of reservists at that time) held off thousands of communists, that act of war earned them the US president recommendation, the only unit in Canada that has received it so far. Canada is not the only country that relies heavily on reservists, Israel has 420,000 reservists and only 125,000 regulars in their armed forces. In England where they have a SAS regiment, Parachute unit and finally Marines Commando, all reservists!!! It shows to people  here that you don‘t need to be a reg force to be considered as an elite soldier.


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## brin11 (26 Mar 2002)

It is true, reservists resent being second class soldiers.  While in the reg force I worked with reservists in the field.  While some were excellent and hard working, many were there for a "summer of pay".  I remember one excellent reservist in particular, an armourer for the OPP in Toronto who injured himself yet still soldiered on.  Others did not act professionally but expected to be treated the same as the reg force of their rank.

I would have an easier time considering reservists equal if the training was the same.  My husband was involved just recently in teaching a QL1/2 course in Aldershot.  Their basic amounts to approx. 21 days total/3  weeks.  How does that equal my basic training which was 10 weeks?  What is it now?  8 weeks?

I also served in the reserves after leaving the reg force.  I was on two B class summer callouts so I have sat on both sides of the fence.  

It is important for reservists to act professionally at all times, this will elevate you in the eyes of other reservists and reg force you serve with more than what regiment/unit you are with.


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## bossi (27 Mar 2002)

... and another thing ...

I was reminded today that it‘s unwise to stereotype.
Within the context of this discussion, it‘s not a good idea for either side to write off the other without fully and completely weighing the comparative analysis.

For example:  Imagine that a Reg Force soldier boasts about being "better" than reservists.
Well, when one realises that a fulltime soldier has more practice than a part-time soldier, it shouldn‘t surprise anybody if the fulltime soldier is better because he had the advantage of more practice.
However, if the reservist is given the opportunity to obtain an identical amount of practice ... it then doesn‘t matter who is Reg or who is reserve - the best soldier will emerge as the best.  Period.  Point final.

On another point:  It‘s also unwise to compare apples and oranges (i.e. if a reservist has 24 years in, and a Reg has only four or five ... are you absolutely sure the reservist is a waste of rations ... ?  Maybe maturity and experience count for something, after all ... but then again, it‘s the young ones who are always so cocksure and full of themselves, isn‘t it ... ?)

I was also musing:
It was probably somebody in the Reg Force who decided to sell the old desert camo uniforms as "surplus" (before the new ones were in service).
It was also probably a Reg who allowed all those pilots to take FRP and get a "golden handshake", until there weren‘t enough pilots ... and then some Reg came up with idea of giving pilots a bonus if they stayed in ... (thus, pilots got a huge bonus either way - plus, some pilots who took FRP re-enrolled ... can you say "have your cake and eat it too?)
I‘ve also got a hunch it was a Reg who purchased the sights that keep falling off the C7 (but of course nobody EVER admits a mistake like that was made, or holds anybody accountable - it might hurt their PER score ...)
Let me see ... let me see ... it was also probably the Reg Force who closed CFB Downsview and "zero funded" all support activity ...  even though the support was still required by the remaining lodger units ... (and it has taken years to even come close to fixing that gaffe).

So, let‘s stop throwing stones - you might be surprised to find out your own house has more glass in it than you thought ...

And, let‘s give credit where credit is truly due - I know scores of officers and soldiers (Reg and reserve) who put their heart and soul into their duties - instead of slinging mud at the bad guys, how about praising some of our unsung, loyal heroes?  (i.e. "honey vs. vinegar")?


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## Korus (28 Mar 2002)

> It is important for reservists to act professionally at all times, this will elevate you in the eyes of other reservists and reg force you serve with more than what regiment/unit you are with.


From the point of view of an FNG to the reserves, great advice!


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## peanutshel (3 Apr 2002)

Great discussion.  I wanted differing opinions on this because it is a subject that rears it‘s ugly head from time to time.  I, (on the newsgroup) pretty much told the guy he was a "whiner" and they jumped all over me (hee hee).


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## ender (8 Apr 2002)

I know many reservists who take a huge pay cut every time they take time off work to do army.  I know reservists that spend more on transportation then they make on a parade night.

I think reservists should be paid at 100% reg force level for the time they work.  A reservist still makes less money, because they work less often.  Also, they don‘t get paid for leave, sick days, stuff like that.

My 3‘s course lasted six weeks.  A reg enigneer 3‘s lasts a lot longer.  But people on a reserve 3‘s course are lucky to get 4 hours sleep a night, arn‘t even allowed to go to the CANEX and often don‘t get any weekends off the entire course.  A reg course isn‘t quite as intense.  (and in case your wondering I have a friend who did his reg engineer 3‘s the summer after he did his Engineer one and that‘s what he says)  So I think the reservest should be paid a full level for the days he works, because he‘s doing at least as much on those days.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Apr 2002)

Ender, you guys must have really f***ed up on your 3‘s cause you do get weekends off, but it usually at the end of blocks 1 and 2. by the end of block 3 your on your way home that weekend anyways.

WRT to us getting 100% reg force I wish. It will probably be at the same time that we get all the gear outlined in the Clothe the Soilder.   

Chimo!

  :cam:


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## Andrew (9 Apr 2002)

Well my opinion on this matter is that if you go to ANY place of work almost anywhere in this world a full time persons will always be making more that a part timer.  I mean it only makes common sence for that to happen.  

Ender I was told that if your a reservest and live 16 miles or more away from your armoury that you could get travel pay for your gas.  Is this not true??

As for Regs ALWAYS making more, not true. My friend who is a reservist is on his LSIS course right now in Kingston and is doing it with Regs.  He gets paid 365 days out of the year, whereas the RegF person only gets paid 5 days a week.  Res persons also get there room and board and food paid for whereas the Reg persons have to pay for all that.  Also from what he has been told once done that course the RegF Rgmts come up and always offer you a job almost right away.  So got that whole couse for free because your a res, Then make the switch to Reg.

Andrew


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## Doug VT (9 Apr 2002)

The Reg force gets paid 7 days a week, 365 days a year.


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## enfield (10 Apr 2002)

I wouldn‘t say Res courses are more intensive at all. I‘ve done Res Inf QL3, and I worked enemy force and GD with the Reg Inf QL3 this past summer and there absolutley no comparison - the Regs course was physically harder, longer, more comprehensive, more intensive, on average had better instructors, more resources, and was an all-round better course.

Which is good, because those guys are over doing it for real now.


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