# RMC Class of 2010



## tomahawk6 (16 Sep 2006)

Interesting article about the class of 2010 at RMC that is just starting their military careers. The future looks bright not only for the new Cadets but for the CF as well.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com//servlet/story/LAC.20060916.COVER16/TPStory/Comment/?pageRequested=all



> The 19-year-old was a regular "civvy U hooligan" last year. But he found studying in his hometown of Kamloops, B.C., too distracting -- and he loathed the idea of a desk job: "Most of my friends are in science programs, they want to be doctors and stuff. That doesn't appeal to me at all. I want to be out in the field, out in the world, doing something completely different."


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## navymich (16 Sep 2006)

Thanks for posting that T6!  Very well written article that covers alot.  This topic should almost be stickied for all those asking questions about RMC!!  Maybe we can get some comments from some of that class (once they're allowed on computers....LOL) to add to it.


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## FredDaHead (16 Sep 2006)

Actually, they already are allowed to use computers. Or at least, my class could go on computers during FYOP, if we went during class hours.

As for the article... it's not bad, though I have some problems with the OCdt saying "I don't know what we're doing in A-stan, but our guys are dying." It makes him sound as though they're dying for nothing.

The journalist seems hopefully clueless about the military and doesn't seem to have done her research vis-à-vis College traditions--which is understandable. Another thing that bugs me, brought on by her cluelessness about RMC, is her reporting that RMC "ruck marches" are done sans-ruck. While it's true that the first few marches were ruck-less, it should be moving to walking around with weight and walking longer and faster. It's not like we just go and walk around for a while, and that we'll do that all year. It's all about progressing.

Anyway, what are you doing reading this? Go read the article!


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## MarkOttawa (16 Sep 2006)

In the army, now
http://www.theglobeandmail.com//servlet/story/LAC.20060916.COVER16/TPStory/Comment/?pageRequested=all

While most of it seems good enough reporting to me, I think this bit is rather tendentious, to say the least:



> Many of the cadets are similarly frank about that financial issue -- and it can be discomfiting. RMC offers a lot of opportunity: direction for the aimless, a sense of belonging and solid job prospects. But it also offers a tuition waiver, a $15,000 annual paycheque and cheap room and board. Is a certain sector of Canadians willing to pay for those amenities by risking their lives?



Mark
Ottawa


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## a78jumper (16 Sep 2006)

Also not mentioned was the percentage of grads that actually end up combat arms and directly in harm's way. Maybe 10%. The rest are Army support, Air Force  or Navy. certainly hugely important jobs, but not likely to be in a situation daily  where you could be dead at nightfall. Just my 2 cents, I am an ex Cadet who had a career in the Logistics Branch as a box kicker, and certainly played the game with the best of them, but not out there toting a rifle on a daily basis, though served quite a bit in field units. Perhaps these new officers should do time as Infantry Platoon Commanders first?


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## Japexican (19 Sep 2006)

"Many of the cadets are similarly frank about that financial issue -- and it can be discomfiting. RMC offers a lot of opportunity: direction for the aimless, a sense of belonging and solid job prospects. But it also offers a tuition waiver, a $15,000 annual paycheque and cheap room and board. Is a certain sector of Canadians willing to pay for those amenities by risking their lives?"

With regards to the above quote, I tend to agree partially.  It is disturbing to have people in the college who are only there for the education/paycheck.  However, these are not the guys going into the combat arms.  For the most part, the combat arms guys genuinely signed up for the right reasons and they are the backbone of the college.  It would be nice to get rid of the future officers who aren't there for the right reasons, but that's life.  Though I don't think they should be here, even those that signed up just for the education do their jobs, just like the rest of us. You will find people in every field of work that shouldn't be.  The question is a bit stupid in that regard... the same question could be asked of DEOs and their signing bonuses, or guys in med-school that are making Lt pay while in school (the ones with the 350Z parked out in the parking lot during BOTC...), or anybody else making any amount of money.


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## GDawg (19 Sep 2006)

That quote almost seems to suggest RMC is for hobos and drifters.

I could have sworn RMC was difficult to get into...


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## FredDaHead (19 Sep 2006)

Japexican said:
			
		

> It is disturbing to have people in the college who are only there for the education/paycheck.  However, these are not the guys going into the combat arms.  For the most part, the combat arms guys genuinely signed up for the right reasons and they are the backbone of the college.



Typical Army Hoorah bullshit.

The Combat Arms people aren't special. A bunch of them probably signed up because they thought "hey, I get to shoot a gun, how cool is that?" I wish people like you could tell the difference between guys from any trade who signed up for the right reason, and people from the combat arms who signed up for the wrong reasons.

The backbone of the college are the people--of any trade, be they the MARS, Air Log or Infantry guys--who joined up because they wanted to do their part for Canada and "do the right thing." NOT the "combat arms people."

I'm tired of this College being so goddamned army-centric... What's next, we'll all wear Army DEUs so we can all look like we're on the same team?


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## Trinity (19 Sep 2006)

Fred..

You realize you're a 2nd year NCdt arguing with a 2nd year OCdt (with 7 posts) *I love the irony

You're probably right in your statements but you don't need to insult
the other guy/trade/army to make your point. But I do appreciate your 
point of view.


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## Meridian (20 Sep 2006)

I was a 1 year Junior OCdt,  and the sheer amount of "colleagues" I had that were quite candid about  their reasons for RMC was shocking to say the least.
They were young, sure, and maybe not all of them will make it through all five years, and maybe some more will mature and change..  But QUITE A FEW of the 140 I went to school with were there for paid flight training and/or a free college education.

The interesting thing is that it is not free.  You work it off.  From what was rumoured from older brothers/etc, some top-classmen were wooed away by big Engineering firms; paying signing bonuses to the equivalent of the 10k/year owing on the 5 year commitment from a subsidized education.     The education would be free if you could walk away at convocation.   Nothing is free in this world.


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## xmarcx (20 Sep 2006)

Japexican said:
			
		

> The question is a bit stupid in that regard... the same question could be asked of DEOs and their signing bonuses, or guys in med-school that are making Lt pay while in school (the ones with the 350Z parked out in the parking lot during BOTC...), or anybody else making any amount of money.



With the exception of dentists and doctors, there aren't any DEO signing bonuses. I know there used to be fairly substantial ones for engineers, but they no doubt made up only a small portion of total applicants. I don't think you need to ask DEO applicants if there is an ulterior motive to their joining - something tells me it's not because they'd rather die in the military than at the hands of an outraged student loan collection officer!


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## Japexican (20 Sep 2006)

That's why I said the question asked in the article was stupid... it makes it seem like many of us are in it only for the money.  Everybody in the military makes money, this doesn't mean that we signed up for just that reason.


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## Japexican (20 Sep 2006)

Sorry for the double post...  By the way, Freddie G didn't "hurt my feelings", so I'll try not to cry myself to sleep tonight.

I'm not in the army, so I hope that I don't get accused of spewing "army hoorah bullshit" but... In second year, there is no difference between the army guys and the navy/air force guys, but as they get more army specific courses, they learn more about leadership than us on PFT, or NETPO.  I find that this precludes them to a higher percentage of leadership positions at the college.  If the college was run by the air force, we'd sleep in until 7:40 every morning...  Who do you think recommended ruck marches every Wed?  It wasn't anyone in the air force (excluding sandhurst), and it probably wasn't anyone in the navy either.  We (non-army) don't like to partake in this stuff, so the army guys are left holding the tiller, just like on range days.



			
				Frederik G said:
			
		

> The backbone of the college are the people--of any trade, be they the MARS, Air Log or Infantry guys--who joined up because they wanted to do their part for Canada and "do the right thing." NOT the "combat arms people."



I agree with you 100% here, but how many of those people (MARS, Log...) really care about the army stuff?  I would venture that the percentages are much higher in the combat arms, which is why I said they are the "back bone"... there are lots of them and they care about the college more than us.  This is not to say that the air force and navy guys don't contribute to the college, just that the army guys seem to care more on average. 

We can't get away with doing nothing at the college, so we do training... we don't have any YAG's to command, and we can't afford to fly airplanes, so we do army stuff.  I think that this is one of the reasons why the college is so "army-centric".  And frankly this is the reason the we (the non army trades) have a hard time getting as pumped up about the stuff at the college as the combat arms guys.


Go 7 sqn... did we really suck that badly last year?  Oh, well I changed squads anyways.


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## GO!!! (20 Sep 2006)

While officers do make a decent wage after the first few years of their careers, I think that the money issue is kind of a moot point.

One platoon commander in my unit somewhat unhappily pointed out that he, after completing four years at RMC, all of his Infantry Phase trg and two years in the unit still did not earn as much as his signaller, and would not for at least a year.

You'll never be rich working for anyone else, and the military is no exception.


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## FredDaHead (20 Sep 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> You'll never be rich working for anyone else, and the military is no exception.



So does that mean I should start my own army? ...Do they still give out letters of marque and if so, where do I get one?


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## vonGarvin (20 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Typical Army Hoorah bullshit.
> The Combat Arms people aren't special. A bunch of them probably signed up because they thought "hey, I get to shoot a gun, how cool is that?" I wish people like you could tell the difference between guys from any trade who signed up for the right reason, and people from the combat arms who signed up for the wrong reasons.
> The backbone of the college are the people--of any trade, be they the MARS, Air Log or Infantry guys--who joined up because they wanted to do their part for Canada and "do the right thing." NOT the "combat arms people."
> I'm tired of this College being so goddamned army-centric... What's next, we'll all wear Army DEUs so we can all look like we're on the same team?



"Small Trade Syndrome".
Don't forget that as a Naval Officer, you ultimately exist so that the infantryman and armour crewman can do his or her job.  Full stop.

Get over it, BUT, never forget that you have joined up for doing the right thing AND that those combat arms "Rock Stars" who just want to shoot guns and the like will NOT make it through phase training at the combat training centre, because we don't have time for "Rock Stars".  I also have trust in RMC to root them out.  You don't need them, and neither do I.


Cheers

 :cheers:


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## Babbling Brooks (20 Sep 2006)

Going for a 'free' education and a guaranteed job aren't enough to get you through RMC.  Period.  I know of what I speak, here.

But I find it curious that anyone should bash a recruit who signs up for ROTP at MilCol primarily for those benefits.  Young people with more brains and talent than money and opportunities have been signing up for military service as a means to financial and social advancement ever since the inception of professional soldiery.  Why do you think we get so many recruits from the Maritimes, or that CF recruiting numbers wax during a recession, and wane during a boom?  And it's not just the officers - you don't think the high-school grad who joins up to learn a trade, or to get a steady paycheque, or to see the world is worthy of our praise and respect?

As was noted above, everyone in the CF serves for their own reasons - reasons more complex than you can fit into two lines of newsprint for a superficial article in the G&M - but they serve nonetheless.  If you're a gold-digger and you do the job, you're in; if you're the most gung-ho patriot ever to tattoo a maple leaf on your forehead, but you can't do the job, you're out.

If you're willing and able to show up at the appointed time, in the appointed place, in the appointed uniform and execute your duties to the best of your abilities and to the standards set by the CF, I'm glad to have my taxes pay your way.

Enough about motivations, folks.  It's about getting the job done.  Pitter patter...


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## GO!!! (20 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> So does that mean I should start my own army? ...Do they still give out letters of marque and if so, where do I get one?



The point was that only a very foolish person would join the military as a method of becoming wealthy, there are other motivations.

Those of us who wish to become rich must, at some point, go into business for themselves.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Sep 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Those of us who wish to become rich must, at some point, go into business for themselves.



..and the success rate in that endeavour is no better than lottery tickets. What is it about having your own business that makes people think you have money?


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## muffin (20 Sep 2006)

xmarcx said:
			
		

> With the exception of dentists and doctors, there aren't any DEO signing bonuses. I know there used to be fairly substantial ones for engineers, but they no doubt made up only a small portion of total applicants. I don't think you need to ask DEO applicants if there is an ulterior motive to their joining - something tells me it's not because they'd rather die in the military than at the hands of an outraged student loan collection officer!



My cousin was just merited as an Engineer and told his bonus is to be approx 40K... so it is still there just not as big as it used to be.


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## Strike (20 Sep 2006)

> We (non-army) don't like to partake in this stuff, so the army guys are left holding the tiller, just like on range days.



Guess what my friend, it doesn't matter what trade you are, you are always a soldier first.  That's why BOTC is a common phase and revolves around how the Army does things (BP and all that jazz).

As for those in the pilot trade thinking this is a good way to jump into the civvie world of flying, let's look at a few stats.

About 60% of flying pilots are on helos.

After your mandatory 7 yrs after wings, you will make about $85 grand (including flight pay).

A civvie captain for Canadian helicopters is lucky to break $60 grand.

To get into any of the heavies for Air Canada you need at least 3000 hrs, most of which should be as an ac.  Good luck getting that in our fixed wing world in that time period.

The point is, although many might join with thoughts on the future outside of the military, many will decide to stay in for the long haul (20-25 yrs, depending on when you signed your IE).  Asking an RMC student what they plan on doing in the future is like asking an Artsman at Queens where they will work when they finish school.  It's not always what is planned for.


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## Shamrock (20 Sep 2006)

Strike said:
			
		

> Asking an RMC student what they plan on doing in the future is like asking an Artsman at Queens where they will work when they finish school.  It's not always what is planned for.



Ey!  I know *exactly* what I'll be doing when I'm done school!

As for Fred's can of worms, I wonder if there were seperate Navy and Air Academies just how different things would be (assuming we had the manning and carte blanche budget to do so).  Don't feed me that line about getting up early, them other elements have shift rotations.  I'm sure discipline would be just as rigidly enforced and timings as anal.  The only difference would be getting to see a bunch of other people walking around in the same clothes all day.  I have reason to suspect the academic and other standards would be just as high.

Like Fred, I don't really appreciate the "I joined to shoot stuff" attitude.  I find it refreshing to talk to someone who says he became an officer vs. ncm to further himself through education.  I don't really have qualms with people who join to leave after their contract and I don't think the military has a problem with this either (otherwise, contracts would be life-long and signed in blood... and we wouldn't have promoted attrition in the forces).  With exception, I find that these people are either some of the most switched on individuals on the face of the planet (as they want to leave with an impressive CV and a healthy network) or the world's biggest bags of crap (and we're better off without them). 

The other day I got to meet a Marine Engineering Officer NCdt.  I asked him why he chose the Navy, and he said he applied for every engineering position the CF had, but the Navy hired him.  His first passion was engineering.  Should he be begrudged his passion?


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## DVessey (20 Sep 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> "Small Trade Syndrome".
> Don't forget that as a Naval Officer, you ultimately exist so that the infantryman and armour crewman can do his or her job.  Full stop.
> 
> Get over it, BUT, never forget that you have joined up for doing the right thing AND that those combat arms "Rock Stars" who just want to shoot guns and the like will NOT make it through phase training at the combat training centre, because we don't have time for "Rock Stars".  I also have trust in RMC to root them out.  You don't need them, and neither do I.
> ...



Fine, I can accept that as a future CELE officer, I'll be responsible for supporting troops in the field. I would actually like to work at CFS Leitrim, and maybe deployment(s) to Camp Mirage, but that's about as close as I'll get to the front lines.
How does doing army stuff here at the college help me to do that? (ie/ ruck marches, morning parades, etc) 
Especially if it's taking time away from getting my degree? (Software Engineering, which would be *very* useful at Leitrim).

I had a great opportunity to work with a few ATIS techs this summer up in Alert(on Battery Neutralization and in the IS cell). From how they described their day-to-day lives on an AF base, RMC is nothing like the real world, and going in this more army-centric direction is just moving further and further away.


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## DVessey (20 Sep 2006)

There's actually another thread on this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50360.0.html

just a heads up...


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2006)

DVessey

You seem to be missing the boat in your reply.  You don't seem to realize that "Everyone is a Soldier First, then a Tradesman."   Obviously, with your attitude, even in Camp Mirage, you would be 'as useless as Tits on a Bull'.  Why?  Because 'if Shyte ever hit the Fan', you would be a danger to not only yourself, but all around you.  You would not have the training to stay alive, let alone defend yourself and your friends.

You have missed the whole point.  It passed completely over your head.


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## GO!!! (20 Sep 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ..and the success rate in that endeavour is no better than lottery tickets. What is it about having your own business that makes people think you have money?



That's a little extreme. 

According to the Business development bank, about 80% of small businesses fail, and some 50% of professional practices do. In addition to this, the tax benefits, combined expenses and ability to minimise taxable income through ownership and share law mean that what is a small amount of salary can be used to much greater purchasing effect by the small business owner.

DVessey

Comments like yours demonstrate why we need to move towards the Marine ideal of "every man a rifleman", and further away from unhappily uniformed technicians, who view extremely basic skills like walking with a backpack and shooting a rifle as "taking" time away from their degree.

For you to appreciate exactly what you are supporting, you do have to be indoctrinated in it. I've had many unhappy encounters with the signals areas of our military, and while they rarely lack in technical ability, they often lack the proper context for the application of their skills. This is what the "army" part of RMC is trying to instill in you. No job in the CF happens in a vacuum, not even at Leitrim.


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## Meridian (20 Sep 2006)

DVessey said:
			
		

> How does doing army stuff here at the college help me to do that? (ie/ ruck marches, morning parades, etc)



Go and GW already answered well enough, but in any event, how does gaining a good appreciation for how the other half lives NOT help you do your job better? You aren't just a tech in uniform; if we wanted that in our forces, we would (and have) subcontracted it out.  If the position requires you to wear a uniform, you shouldn't be afraid of doing the military stuff.  We do not have three services. We have one. 

Also, a ruck march can only help your physical endurance, which helps your brain work faster, longer and harder.  The discipline required in parading, and the myriad of other tasks you may not want to do but will do with excellence anyway ESPECIALLLY if they have nothing to do with "your real job" or what you "really want to do" can only help you when you are stuck on the far side of the world doing something IN your trade that you really do not want to do, but that needs to be done.




> Especially if it's taking time away from getting my degree? (Software Engineering, which would be *very* useful at Leitrim).



Why  would it be taking time away from getting your degree?  Honours degrees are four years everywhere.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Why  would it be taking time away from getting your degree?  Honours degrees are four years everywhere.



Because you went to bed at 0300 in the morning to finish your 2 assignments due the next day (2 per day is an average I would say) and you ahve to get up at 0500 in the morning instead of sleeping a little bit more to get ready for school again at 0800.  RMC is based on "everyone is an artsman".  Well, they go to bed at 0300 because they were pissed the night before, I went to bed at 0300 because I had school work to do (and those who know me, that wasn't because I was disorganized.  I was actually pretty much always the first one to go to bed)

Max


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## vonGarvin (20 Sep 2006)

Ruck marches, firing rifles, polishing boots and all that jazz do more than instill an army mentality.  It has EVERYTHING to do with instilling a MILITARY mentality.  I dare you, nay, I DOUBLE dare you to tell a sailor that he doesn't know how to wax a floor, polish his boots, march smartly or fire his weapon.  Heck, I double dog dare you!
Also, it instills a sense of teamwork (you never march alone, well, you shouldn't anyway).  It all helps you pay attention to detail, and it also reminds you that you have signed up for unlimited liability.  Look it up.  Check out "Duty with Honour".  "Truth, Duty, Valour" aren't mere words, they are only symbols of how we live our lives in the Service of Arms.  EVERYONE does their part for the war effort.  If I were to walk up to a soldier changing a fuel filter, and I asked her what she was doing, I would hope she would say "helping to win the war".  Sure, not directly, naturally, but every bit counts.


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## Infanteer (20 Sep 2006)

Hah, I went to a civilian university where the chicks were civvies and I still came out with pensionable time and some mud on the boots!  That and I didn't have to play BMQ for four years.  Suckas!!!


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2006)

whoooole lotta whining goin' on here. Good see my future "leaders" have their heads on straight. :


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## vonGarvin (20 Sep 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Hah, I went to a civilian university where the chicks were civvies and I still came out with pensionable time and some mud on the boots!  That and I didn't have to play BMQ for four years.  Suckas!!!


Ditto!

UWO, baby!

http://www.uwo.ca


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## DVessey (20 Sep 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> DVessey
> 
> You seem to be missing the boat in your reply.  You don't seem to realize that "Everyone is a Soldier First, then a Tradesman."   Obviously, with your attitude, even in Camp Mirage, you would be 'as useless as Tits on a Bull'.  Why?  Because 'if Shyte ever hit the Fan', you would be a danger to not only yourself, but all around you.  You would not have the training to stay alive, let alone defend yourself and your friends.
> 
> You have missed the whole point.  It passed completely over your head.



Ok, if that's the situation, then why aren't I doing CAP? RMC is definitely not capable of training me to deal with 'shyte hitting the fan'. And I still fail to see how weekly ruck marches help to deal with shyte hitting the fan, other than giving me the ability to walk really well.

"Come on troops! let's walk away!"

I'm not trying to be too much of a smart ass, but I still fail to see how weekly ruck marches prepare me for the 'real world' once I graduate.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

For me, all this bullcrap army things (ruck marches and more) gave me a bad taste of the military.  I joined with the intention of doing my whole career in the miltary, now I just want to do my contract (at the best of my competences) and find something better.  It might change...  I see now what the military (or more the Air Force) really has to offer and I love it.  Don't get me wrong.  It's important to do basic soldier stuff..  But do it at the right time.  I was under the impression that the staff at RMC didn't take into consideration that we were going to school and that school isn't just from 0800 to 1630 (for engineering students anyways).  And for me, that's a total lack of leadership.  During the school year (Sept to April), my focus was stricly academic.  During the summers, my focus was strictly military stuff.  During the summer you could had have me do anything (ruck marches, shooting rifles, etc) and I would never complain.  But during the academic year, I feel it's just not the right time to do those things.  Civy U guys don't have to juggle with all those things all winter long and it doesn't make them worst officers than us (sometimes I wonder if they don't have a better life experience than we do).  So for me, RMC is overrated and there is a big lack of leadership there.

Max


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## tomahawk6 (20 Sep 2006)

Ruck marches help keep a soldier fit.


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## FredDaHead (20 Sep 2006)

I think the main peeve people have with the whole "army crap" deal is that, sure, "every man a rifleman" sounds great, but we do absolutely nothing related to our element (if we're not Army) except on MOC weekend and phase training. At RMC, it's all about the Army.

Like SupersonicFlyboy said, there's a time to do army stuff and a time to focus on school. Although I don't agree with his assumption that all artsmen are drunks who only party all the time, I think that the focus during the schoolyear, should be on school.



			
				DVessey said:
			
		

> Ok, if that's the situation, then why aren't I doing CAP? RMC is definitely not capable of training me to deal with 'shyte hitting the fan'. And I still fail to see how weekly ruck marches help to deal with shyte hitting the fan, other than giving me the ability to walk really well.



I think that's another of the "main points" people are questionning. If they wanted "every man to be a rifleman," why don't they have us do stuff that'll be useful, like, say, practice shooting guns, or instruct us in how to defend a camp, or whatever, instead of just going for a little walk once a week?


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## big bad john (20 Sep 2006)

I agree, it should be a run with a ruck, and yes I am serious.  BTW  suck it up sweetheart.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2006)

You wanted to be officers, this how they're made. Ya'll are whining like pregnant women.


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## FredDaHead (20 Sep 2006)

big bad john said:
			
		

> I agree, it should be a run with a ruck, and yes I am serious.  BTW  suck it up sweetheart.



No problem--just tell supply to give me a goddamned ruck, 'cause right now they won't. "You're not entitled to it, you're Navy."


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> You wanted to be officers, this how they're made. Ya'll are whining like pregnant women.



Then why don't the Civy U guys do it?  Aren't they going to be officers too?  

And I tend to think it's the way you form ARMY (or even combat arms?) officers.  

Max


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## FredDaHead (20 Sep 2006)

big bad john said:
			
		

> I am positive if you take the problem of no ruck to the RSM he will find you one knowing him.



Do you think I'm insane enough to just walk up to MWO XXXXXXX and go "Hey, Sargeant-Major, can you help me get a ruck off supply?"

He'd probably say something like "oh, you wanna do more ruck marches? Let's go for it, every morning at 0530!"


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## DVessey (20 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> You wanted to be officers, this how they're made. Ya'll are whining like pregnant women.



And then here's the old attitude. "You're all just wining. suck it up". So pointing out deficiencies in the system is whining and I should just suck it up? Sure, I'll remember that for later on in my career  :

Alright, fine, let's do some 'soldier first' stuff during the school year at RMC, but why not realistic? During our range weekend, we do it a division at a time. that's 3-4 squadrons of ~100 people each. That gives each person a chance to shoot old brownings and C7s once. We do that once per school year. We don't even have a shooting or biathlon team anymore(obviously not very good military sports...).

There's this general feeling in the the senior ranks here at RMC and from what I've seen on this board, everywhere in the CF, that if you're an OCdt, you don't know shit, and can't criticize anything. Well guess what, we're the ones 'on the ground' here at the college, living the dream.
I went to Alert for an OJE this summer, and had a lot of fun, met a lot of great people, from all different trades, from the van doo para General Duty kitchen staff to the CELE CO. You know what all the NCMs told me when we got to talking about RMC and advice for the future? look after and listen to your troops, from your privates to your senior cpls to your sgts (WO is taken as a given).

Let's take a hypothetical example here(don't want to use specific examples just in case big brother is watching): What would any of you say if a battalion were formed up for parade practice at about 5:50, and then the RSM had a O-group with the platoon WOs for about 20 minutes, all while rest of the battalion is left standing in the parade square? Needless to say, there's other work that the troops could be working on.


Then again, what do I know? I'm just a whiny Ocdt...


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## Infanteer (20 Sep 2006)

Ruckmarches aren't about physical conditioning, it's about mental conditioning.  I've seen fit guys fall out of ruckmarches because they mentally switch off.

...and to the kids whining about lack of sleep at school.  What the hell to you think military leadership is all about?  Making decisions under stressful conditions while fatigued.  Most boneheads can succeed with 8 hours and 3 sqaures but it's the real leaders who can step up to the plate with no sleep and little food to motivate and lead their subordinates.



			
				DVessey said:
			
		

> Alright, fine, let's do some 'soldier first' stuff during the school year at RMC, but why not realistic? During our range weekend, we do it a division at a time. that's 3-4 squadrons of ~100 people each. That gives each person a chance to shoot old brownings and C7s once. We do that once per school year. We don't even have a shooting or biathlon team anymore(obviously not very good military sports...).



Welcome to the CF.



> Let's take a hypothetical example here(don't want to use specific examples just in case big brother is watching): What would any of you say if a battalion were formed up for parade practice at about 5:50, and then the RSM had a O-group with the platoon WOs for about 20 minutes, all while rest of the battalion is left standing in the parade square? Needless to say, there's other work that the troops could be working on.



As per.  You think this is something unique to RMC?



> Then again, what do I know? I'm just a whiny Ocdt...



I don't know - you tell me.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2006)

DVessey said:
			
		

> What would any of you say if a battalion were formed up for parade practice at about 5:50, and then the RSM had a O-group with the platoon WOs for about 20 minutes, all while rest of the battalion is left standing in the parade square?


I'd say "Must be Tuesday". 

As for the rest of your rant: yeah, you're an OCdt, you DON'T know anything about the CF yet, and nobody listens to 1st year Privates whine, either. 'Cause they're in the same position you are: they don't know anything yet.


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## spoon man (20 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Then why don't the Civy U guys do it?  Aren't they going to be officers too?
> 
> And I tend to think it's the way you form ARMY (or even combat arms?) officers.
> 
> Max



Suck it up buttercup.

There are people who are doing engineering degrees at civi u, working in the reserves, doing private flight training and still find time to do extra curriculars while seriosuly hitting the gym.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> ...and to the kids whining about lack of sleep at school.  What the hell to you think military leadership is all about?  Making decisions under stressful conditions while fatigued.  Most boneheads can succeed with 8 hours and 3 sqaures but it's the real leaders who can step up to the plate with no sleep and little food to motivate and lead their subordinates.



I don't mind doing that for a few weeks... But for 4 months at the time?  That's a bit too much...  I can do 2-3 hrs a night for a few days but I'll need rest sometimes... Don't tell me the week end... That's still work...

Max


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## Meridian (20 Sep 2006)

Dvessey

You still aren't getting it. 

I may only be paid for a 9-5 job, but my job quite often extends much more outside of the 9-5. Often I have to do things that have nothing to do with what I am trained for and really paid to do, but, you know what, its all part of the job. Ive learned to deal with it.  Getting up at 5 am to do a ruck, and then managing to stay awake all day AND get good grades will help you do that.

The point isnt so much that you need to do something ARMY as that you need to do something that seems daunting, that is not EASY and that will push you to work harder.

You are NOT at a civvy U.  There is a reason the Forces used to push for attendance at RMC over Civy U. Civvy U students can become well-rounded officers, there is no doubt.  But what you should be proud of when you leave RMC is the fact that you did MORE than just get an engineering degree..  ENG degrees are hard everywhere.  Guess what. Arts degrees can be too,. especially for those who would like to get into a Grad school later.  

You do not go to school on a ship.  Nor do you study intermediate quantum physics in a helo or in the back of a Herc.  I'm sure you could, but unfortunately thats not nearly cost effective NOR is it really all that demanding on you. 


That said, I'm sure if you could decide to be a leader, and take your criticisms and turn them into solutions, you might get more favourable responses.   How about you come up with a cost effective activity that would meet the same training goals as are met by early morning ruck marches.  (Fitness, discipline, self-motivation, mental endurance, etc). Something you can do that would apply more to your element.



It's easy to point out problems.
It's an entirely different matter to come up with viable solutions.

The sooner you get that, the better a leader you will be.


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## Infanteer (20 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't mind doing that for a few weeks... But for 4 months at the time?



Tell that to the guys in the Forward Operating Bases in Afghanistan.... :


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## DVessey (20 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> As for the rest of your rant: yeah, you're an OCdt, you DON'T know anything about the CF yet, and nobody listens to 1st year Privates whine, either. 'Cause they're in the same position you are: they don't know anything yet.



4th year ROTP and a lot of the UT OCdts are saying the same things.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

spoon man said:
			
		

> Suck it up buttercup.
> 
> There are people who are doing engineering degrees at civi u, working in the reserves, doing private flight training and still find time to do extra curriculars while seriosuly hitting the gym.



I did extra curriculars during my time at RMC as well.  Don't forget that we don't have a 25 hrs engineering schedule... we have 35+ hrs a week of classes (we have to take arts and of course gym classes)  That is totally fine with me.  We had IMs/Varsity (2X a week for IMs and every day for varsity).  I did a lots of flight training to keep my competency on "how to fly an aircraft" current, volunteered in some places in town, hit the gym/run 4-5 times a week and I had a spouse (civi) and a house to maintain.  All that no time really pissed my wife off but fortunately we both fly airplanes so we could fly together... which was our only together time...  I didn't see how the 6h00 LSD run will help me in becoming a better officer...



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Tell that to the guys in the Forward Operating Bases in Afghanistan.... :



I'm pretty sure they get some time off at some point.  

Max


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

big bad john said:
			
		

> You don't get any time off at an FOB.  You never know when the shyte will hit the fan. Excuse me Mr Taliban, but I've had a really tough day, can we make this battle a little later.



Maybe they don't then, but I don't think the ruck march at 0600 will prevent people from dying.  Lives depend on their job.  

P.S. : Don't deployed people have some kind of leave after 3 months?  Anyways, this is the way it was working a few years back isn't it?

Max


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Nope not at all.  All that I know is that this bullcrap made me hate that place with a passion.

Max


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## DVessey (20 Sep 2006)

Meridian said:
			
		

> That said, I'm sure if you could decide to be a leader, and take your criticisms and turn them into solutions, you might get more favourable responses.   How about you come up with a cost effective activity that would meet the same training goals as are met by early morning ruck marches.  (Fitness, discipline, self-motivation, mental endurance, etc). Something you can do that would apply more to your element.



Set standards and let us meet them (ie/ RMC PT Test, which already exists) on our own time. Let us actually manage our own schedule.


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## Gunner (20 Sep 2006)

To quote someone much brighter than me "Officer Cadets should be seen, not heard".


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## aesop081 (20 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Nope not at all.  All that I know is that this bullcrap made me hate that place with a passion.
> 
> Max



then leave....as soon as you can.....preferably before you set foot in the same airplane as me.......


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## aesop081 (20 Sep 2006)

DVessey said:
			
		

> Set standards and let us meet them (ie/ RMC PT Test, which already exists) on our own time. Let us actually manage our own schedule.



looks to me like you are doing a piss-poor job at managing it now.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2006)

I had a big ol' multi-point post all worked out, then realized you guys don't want to face reality, you want to feel sorry for yourselves. Fine. You're right. The CF has no idea how to teach people to be Leaders, and it's all a plot to make your lives difficult. You have it harder than anyone in the history of the CF. :

I'm out.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> then leave....as soon as you can.....preferably before you set foot in the same airplane as me.......



This place referring as RMC not the military.. As I said earlier, I love where I am now and where I,m headed.

Max


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## aesop081 (20 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> This place referring as RMC not the military.. As I said earlier, I love where I am now and where I,m headed.
> 
> Max



I think you missunderstood me.........leave before  you wind up in my airplane.


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## Shamrock (20 Sep 2006)

Max.

Go on a tour as a rifleman.  Tell me then how hard RMC is.  Then a year later, go on another one.

And for added fun: while you're there, do some classes.  Because some of those infantarymen will do just that.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> I think you missunderstood me.........leave before  you wind up in my airplane.



Then see you around


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Max.
> 
> Go on a tour as a rifleman.  Tell me then how hard RMC is.  Then a year later, go on another one.
> 
> And for added fun: while you're there, do some classes.  Because some of those infantarymen will do just that.



I dont, say RMC is physically hard. But academics there can be demanding and to do good in this you need to have some sort of mental rest.  Some of those skills learned in class are going to be usefull for some individual (read AEREs, CELEs, EMEs, etc)  I wanted to do good in my academics so I gave less importance to the military commitments (even though I think I still did pretty good.. Anyways my RMC course reports says so).  To be honest, I joined the military to be in the Air Force.  I understand I need some basic soldiering skills to do so but I considered those "military mornings" more "morale destruction for everyone" than anything. Getting up at 0530 to learn for the 10th time how to write a friggin memo....   Is that going to make me a better officer or soldier?  To get up at 0600 for a 10 minutes brief on "the most random thing in the world" and then wait for 30 minutes before figuring out that the next speaker isn't going to be here will make be a better officer?  Please...

And FYI, I don't think you'll find a majority of RMC grads that will say they liked their journey at RMC.  As the ex-DCdts said :  "RMC is a nice place to be from, but certainly not a nice place to be"

Max


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## Meridian (20 Sep 2006)

Sadly, DVessey and SupersonicMax are not the minority in the RMC fraternity.  

Its one of the reasons I left the milcol system and decided to get my degree on my own.  Definitely not the entire reason, if it had just been that, I would have sucked it up. But in any event, its unfortunate the amount of whiners you get who just want a degree and can't understand why RMC won't just let them do their academics and fun stuff.


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## armyvern (20 Sep 2006)

DVessey said:
			
		

> Set standards and let us meet them (ie/ RMC PT Test, which already exists) on our own time. Let us actually manage our own schedule.


I've got 18 years in and they still don't let me manage my own schedule. Why should you be allowed to manage yours? 

24/7...you've heard the term before. 

This is all reminding me of an Air Log officer who got posted into Petawawa. Out in the field when we got gassed he starts screaming for me to give him my gas mask (cause he didn't act like a soldier first and wasn't wearing his webbing). I'm thinking not!! I watched him vomit through my lens. Poor guy. Learnt his lesson really quickly though. 

PS (this is top-secret).....I also wore a blue uniform at the time.  How come those of us who wear blue (or wore blue) at the bottom of the ladder seem to realize that we are soldiers first and that *surprise* we joined the *MILITARY*. Why do some choose to think that their position or uniform colour precludes them from actually training for fighting and dying?

And darn be the pilot or ground crew who thinks I'm going to protect his butt in a deployed camp when the shite hits the fan because he ain't got his weapon around or the in-depth training to use it properly and instinctively. I'll be concentrating on whoever the threat is and backing up the ones who'll be backing me up, regardless of the uniform colour.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Gas Masked Crusader said:
			
		

> And darn be the pilot or ground crew who thinks I'm going to protect his butt in a deployed camp when the shite hits the fan because he ain't got his weapon around or the in-depth training to use it properly and instinctively. I'll be concentrating on whoever the threat is and backing up the ones who'll be backing me up, regardless of the uniform colour.



Sadly, I requested to get on a C7 and 9mm requal but the answer I got it the following: "You will get your qualifications when you need it. So give us a call back when you are deployed"

Max


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## FredDaHead (20 Sep 2006)

Gas Masked Crusader said:
			
		

> And darn be the pilot or ground crew who thinks I'm going to protect his butt in a deployed camp when the shite hits the fan because he ain't got his weapon around or the in-depth training to use it properly and instinctively. I'll be concentrating on whoever the threat is and backing up the ones who'll be backing me up, regardless of the uniform colour.



So it's my fault the military won't train me enough to fire my rifle properly, (I know how to fire and maintain it, but I don't have nearly enough practice on it to fire it accurately, especially in times of high stress) or that by the time I graduate, I'll have fired a Browning about 4 times? Is it also my fault your boots didn't fit right when you first got them, and the Army pants make women's butts look big?


I get the main point you're trying to make, but blaming the member for the training he didn't/couldn't receive is a rather stupid argument to make, as SupersonicMax just said.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax

That's the best imitation of a whining, self indulgent, don't give a f**k pussy, that I've seen in a long time. Don't drop out of Drama Class, it's working for you.

I can only hope, for the good of the Service, that the panty waist you're portraying never has the obligation of taking care of troops. 

If I belonged to the Sceen Actor's Guild, you'd have my nomination.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

I don't care that the military makes me do anything as long as I can see what is the purpose of this... And honestly, all the military morning crap (except drill), I didn't see much of a use...

Max


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## armyvern (20 Sep 2006)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Sadly, DVessey and SupersonicMax are not the minority in the RMC fraternity.


Sadly,

We could also poll graduates of basic training in Cornwallis, various SQ courses, ISCCs etc (courses for us 'little people') and find out that they did not enjoy all their experiences either. And that they were sleep deprived...

But hey, that's the Military and part of the training is to stress us out and see how we re-act (or don't) when under stress, when sleep deprived.

It's the ability to endure this, pick up and carry on with the task that will either make you or break you. So next time my cell phone goes off at 0330hrs, I'll just say "no I can't  come in and action it cause I did my real job for 9 hours today after my 1.5 hours of PT and then came home and did my correspondance for 3 hours so I need a mental break." That would have went over real well had I said it last week. The thought never even crossed my mind, nor did I whine about it. That's what being in the Military is all about. Get the task, get it done.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Gas Masked Crusader said:
			
		

> Sadly,
> 
> We could also poll graduates of basic training in Cornwallis, various SQ courses, ISCCs etc (courses for us 'little people') and find out that they did not enjoy all their experiences either. And that they were sleep deprived...
> 
> ...



Right now, if you called me a 3 in the morning for a call, I would go in a hurry.  I don't see the point of having us to do a degree but taking all the tools away to do it or have us to strive for lower than we can.  If you want me to do a degree, give me all the ressources to do it, including time for homeworks.  My job at RMC was to study and that's the way I took it.

Max


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## aesop081 (20 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And honestly, all the military morning crap (except drill), I didn't see much of a use...
> 
> Max



You dont know enough yet, to know what is useful and what is not.


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## armyvern (20 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> So it's my fault the military won't train me enough to fire my rifle properly, (I know how to fire and maintain it, but I don't have nearly enough practice on it to fire it accurately, especially in times of high stress) or that by the time I graduate, I'll have fired a Browning about 4 times? Is it also my fault your boots didn't fit right when you first got them, and the Army pants make women's butts look big?
> 
> 
> I get the main point you're trying to make, but blaming the member for the training he didn't/couldn't receive is a rather stupid argument to make, as SupersonicMax just said.



My boots did fit right and the new pants do make women look huge. What I'm saying is part of the training involves marching and a "we are soldiers first" mentality.
I didn't blame the soldier for their lack of training on the weapons...I blame it on a failure of elements to realize that this IS the military and that we go to war and that attitude of "soldiers first" obviously still needs to be instilled into certain training regimens. 

That said, I think it's kind of funny that weapons trg seems to be OK but not marching. What are the pilots (for example) going to do when their deployed air-base gets attacked, their planes are destroyed and they need to get themselves away from the area? Lots of pilots did some awful long foot-marching about 6 decades ago when they were shot down over Europe...I just don't get why they think marching is for the Army only.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2006)

Gas Masked Crusader said:
			
		

> My boots did fit right and the new pants do make women look huge. What I'm saying is part of the training involves marching and a "we are soldiers first" mentality.
> I didn't blame the soldier for their lack of training on the weapons...I blame it on a failure of elements to realize that this IS the military and that we go to war and that attitude of "soldiers first" obviously still needs to be instilled into certain training regimens.
> 
> That said, I think it's kind of funny that weapons trg seems to be OK but not marching. What are the pilots (for example) going to do when their deployed air-base gets attacked, their planes are destroyed and they need to get themselves away from the area? Lots of pilots did some awful long foot-marching about 6 decades ago when they were shot down over Europe...I just don't get why they think marching is for the Army only.



I absolutely don,t think that but summer is what it's for I think. Leave the winters for academics.

Max


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## Shamrock (20 Sep 2006)

Can you apply to transfer to another academy?


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## FredDaHead (21 Sep 2006)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Can you apply to transfer to another academy?



Sadly, there's only the Royal Army Military College, up here in good ol' Canada.


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Royal Army Military College,



 :


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## Shamrock (21 Sep 2006)

Then suck it the f*** up, buttercup!

Seriously, though.  If one wants an education, why remain at an academy where the education is competing with other things?  There has to be some appeal beyond the inconvenience of leaving.


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## DVessey (21 Sep 2006)

Just curious, if an ex-cpl or ex-sgt came on here and said that a lot of this stuff is BS, would anyone listen to them? Because they're in our classes, and they say pretty much the same things.


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

DVessey said:
			
		

> Just curious, if an ex-cpl or ex-sgt came on here and said that a lot of this stuff is BS, would anyone listen to them?



NO....i've met enough ex-whatevers who still cant figure out that they are in the MILITARY !!


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## SupersonicMax (21 Sep 2006)

Well, to be honest, I was there so why bother leaving.  In the end, I'll do what I joined for.  I though the education was really good and the group of friends was amazing. So I stayed 4 years and did my "time"

Max


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## SupersonicMax (21 Sep 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> NO....i've met enough ex-whatevers who still cant figure out that they are in the MILITARY !!



You are talking like you know a LOT about RMC.  Have you ever stepped foot there?


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## blacktriangle (21 Sep 2006)

DVessey said:
			
		

> Let's take a hypothetical example here(don't want to use specific examples just in case big brother is watching): What would any of you say if a battalion were formed up for parade practice at about 5:50, and then the RSM had a O-group with the platoon WOs for about 20 minutes, all while rest of the battalion is left standing in the parade square? Needless to say, there's other work that the troops could be working on.



My grandfather told me a story like that a few days back, I guess it's not a new thing. The recruits he left to polish boots while he drank (and for more then 20 minutes, I might add ) would all be Senior NCO's or even retired by now. I'm sure they've seen it all


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You are talking like you know a LOT about RMC.  Have you ever stepped foot there?



Yup.........


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## SupersonicMax (21 Sep 2006)

Have you ever been a Staff/Cadet there?


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## Japexican (21 Sep 2006)

Well, since this has exploded into quite the topic, I'd figure that I would throw in my 2 cents from my ongoing experience as an RMC ocdt... The thing is: both sides have valid points to make even though I'll side with the army guys.  I am on exchange right now with the USAF and frankly, I've never been more happy about the "army" training that I recieved.  If there was no army at RMC, we'd probably look alot like the Air Force academy, or the Naval academy.  I did their "BCT" course (6 weeks) during the summer and have seen them doing their training during the school year.  Since they have no army things to do, they take classes.  Classes on anger, classes on drinking, honor, and many other things.  Unfortunetly, though these classes are good courses, the cadets have no context to base the classes on, especially the leadership ones.  Their definition of the "field" is a pre-set up encampment where they sleep in the tents roughly equivelent to 2 section mod tents.  They fire rifles once or twice throughout their time at USAFA, have no idea how it works, and think that cleaning a rifle consists of pouring oil on the bolt.   I was lectured by a chief master sergeant on the big picture, and he concluded that the "big picture" was the air force :.  I could go on forever, but I think that I have never been more thankful for my army training, and it took a look at the opposite end of the spectrum to see that.  I bitched about the training when it was going on, but it has only made me stronger, never weaker; both physically and as a leader.  I wish I had time for more.

On the other hand, those that aren't at RMC don't see the problems with the army training at the college.  Some of the stuff we do is stupid and useless, but not because it is army training, but because we lack the rescources, or the staff to effectively do the training.  Many at the college have pretty strong fellings about what goes on at the college (former NCM's in Otter Sqn included).  Nobody likes it when our time gets wasted, and unfortunatly this happens at RMC a lot.  The ruck marches are a good example.  I don't think that rucksack marches are useless, in fact I thought it was a good idea when I first heard about it.  However, a large portion of the college (we gave it away after BOTC) can't get rucksacks.  The college is working on that, but in the mean time the current routine is a waste of time.  Maybe they should turn it into a run, but right now marching slow circles around the college is a waste of time.  I don't want to get rid of the army training, I just want it to be effective.  The mistake that a lot of guys at RMC make is that they look at some of the inneffective army training that we recieve and they say "Army stuff is stupid. Let's get rid of it since I won't need it."  Instead of talking about ditching the army training, we should be talking about improving it.  


good night... let's try to get this one back on track instead of tossing mud around

grammar...


----------



## cobbler (21 Sep 2006)

Maybe the little things, like calling the Navy guys Midshipmen, not OCdts, would help.


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## SupersonicMax (21 Sep 2006)

Japexican said:
			
		

> On the other hand, those that aren't at RMC don't see the problems with the army training at the college.  Some of the stuff we do is stupid and useless, but not because it is army training, but because we lack the rescources, or the staff to effectively do the training.  Many at the college have pretty strong fellings about what goes on at the college (former NCM's in Otter Sqn included).  Nobody likes it when our time gets wasted, and unfortunatly this happens at RMC a lot.  The ruck marches are a good example.  I don't think that rucksack marches are useless, in fact I thought it was a good idea when I first heard about it.  However, a large portion of the college (we gave it away after BOTC) can't get rucksacks.  The college is working on that, but in the mean time the current routine is a waste of time.  Maybe they should turn it into a run, but right now marching slow circles around the college is a waste of time.  I don't want to get rid of the army training, I just want it to be effective.  The mistake that a lot of guys at RMC is that they look at some of the inneffective army training that we recieve and they say "Army stuff is stupid. Let's get rid of it since I won't need it."  Instead of talking about ditching the army training, we should be talking about improving it.



That a well express opinion that would sum up what I think

Max


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Have you ever been a Staff/Cadet there?



Thankfully no.  Never had the desire to be. University was never my thing.....at least not back then.


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## SupersonicMax (21 Sep 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Thankfully no.  Never had the desire to be. University was never my thing.....at least not back then.



Then how can you judge on the things they make us do at RMC?


----------



## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Then how can you judge on the things they make us do at RMC?



Because i've seen it....and its no different than any other school in the Cf where students are time compressed, have serious and difficult studies to undertake. I dont see them on here complaining


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

big bad john said:
			
		

> I have trained Officers.



So have I.....


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## Shamrock (21 Sep 2006)

Anybody else notice how many people are watching this thread?


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## Shamrock (21 Sep 2006)

big bad john said:
			
		

> We are tryin g to bestow our collective "wisdom" here.



I'll go fetch the wisin' stick.


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## SupersonicMax (21 Sep 2006)

From what I've seen, training officers on basic training / phase training are different than officers at RMC (their role seems different).  But anyways, my point is that military stuff that we are given are pretty much useless at RMC.  I wrote a memo in my 3rd year to have lectures on the CF administration system (that would be usefull for a CF officer wouldn't it?) instead of lectures on how to write a memo for the 100th time.  The answer came back that it would be looked at.  At the end of my 4th year :  still memo lectures...  

Max


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> From what I've seen, training officers on basic training / phase training are different than officers at RMC (their role seems different).  But anyways, my point is that military stuff that we are given are pretty much useless at RMC.  I wrote a memo in my 3rd year to have lectures on the CF administration system (that would be usefull for a CF officer wouldn't it?) instead of lectures on how to write a memo for the 100th time.  The answer came back that it would be looked at.  At the end of my 4th year :  still memo lectures...
> 
> Max



I understand the memo thing......i'll give you that.  But it goes on in every single school in the CF so stop thinking you are something special.


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## HItorMiss (21 Sep 2006)

I find it intresting as I look to my future that this thread would occur...

The concept of soldiers at a FOB came up and what little rest was/is gotten while in them. I'll raise all operational requirements in a command position while in what little down time was available doing correspondence work on a degree on his own time. Now I don't need t get into his daily schedule but lets hypothesize a 10 hr patrol with orders previous and debriefings after, now throw in post patrol drills and then doing PT and then 2 sentry shifts at night and yes he found time in there to do multiple university course while maintaining a near perfect grade avg.

Remember all this is in Afghanistan in the middle of bad guy country and if he could it all without a single complaint I fail to see how the rest of you can whine about it. Remember you chose to go to RMC, you knew it was more then just an academic institution. If you can't hack it quit but stop crying foul.

PS 14 post went up while I typed I hope it's still relevant


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## Infanteer (21 Sep 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Remember all this is in Afghanistan in the middle of bad guy country and if he could it all without a single complaint I fail to see how the rest of you can whine about it. Remember you chose to go to RMC, you knew it was more then just an academic institution. If you can't hack it quit but stop crying foul.



Yup, and it is probably a good place to end this gongshow.  Anyone want to do the honours?


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## Wookilar (21 Sep 2006)

Thanks Infanteer,

Re: the whole bloody mess and noise about the rucksack marches and Army training; whining about/from OCdts; and sucking it up.

I am at RMC, as a UT(2 years here). I also did 13 years in first-line units, the last 8 with an infantry BN. I like Army shtuff. I will attempt to clarify a few things (for everyone interested). 

*To the OCdts*: Rucksack marches are not for staying physically fit. I am a fat Army guy, and have been for a number of years. On BOTP this past summer, I had difficulty keeping up on the runs in the morning. When we got to the field, many of my far more fit peers had difficulty keeping up with me going 5km in webbing. It is all mental endurance. This will serve you well in every thing you do, no matter your element or trade. If you can come up with a better way to achieve this same end result, let's hear it, no more useless whining.

*To everyone else*: I know, I know. We "get it." We've also been doing it and more for X years. Instead of wanting to reach down their throat and squeezing, I would ask that you try to "explain" why we do things. These ones are not trained like many of us older ones were, they have been taught to question almost everything, not to waste time on useless training. They have not been told the value of such training by anyone here, therefore, it is a waste of time. One of the largest issues that came to light with this new training here is meal time. Their mess does not operate early enough for many (if not most) to get fed before or after training. At 0800 hrs, class starts (1000 on Wednesdays). Once class starts, NOTHING is allowed to interfere with that. All training MUST be done outside of these hours. Here, the Academic wing currently holds precedence over everyone else. This puts a large number of constraints on all training.

The Professional Military Training classes that we get here on Wed mornings are pretty standard and, unfortunately, very duplicated between RMC and CFLRS in St.Jean. That has started to change, but as many are aware, changing/dropping courses from a training schedule is not a simple matter, especially when there is a standards cell involved. This year is better than last year and that was better than the year before (so I am told). They are almost uniformly boring, mundane, everyday things that we must know how do to (SHARP, Public Affairs, diversification, WHIMIS, etc and yes memos).

Max (and others): maybe you know how to write a memo, but I guarantee that most do not. I have seen them. The training here/everywhere is for the majority. You will be in classes for the rest of your career that you will think are boring and useless because you already know how to do them. Try to remember that the person sitting next to you may not get it at all and needs that extra help. If you have good ideas, send them up the chain. We do all the time. It may go nowhere, but if so, it will probably be for reasons that you do not know. Want clarification, ask. What's is the worst that can happen?

*Rucksacks:* RMC is a training school and as such, most of the CF members here are not entitled to most of the gear that those of us in operational units take for granted. We can not get rucksacks, the supply system will not give them to us (I mean us as a unit). The Cadet Wing Sgt-Maj (and others) are trying to sort this out, but it is a horrible mess. Technically, and I have been told this to my face at clothing stores, I am no longer entitled to my ruck, my goretex bivvy bag, or any of my field kit and I should turn it all back in. I can't even exchange my goretex jacket that I have had for years because I am not entitled to it. I should be wearing the old combat jacket with my CADPAT (I am not joking, it's freaking horrible and looks retarded). And to top it all off, where the heck are we going to find 1000 rucksacks for everybody here? Think supply wants to use their budget up for that?

There is a lot more to all of this (and more) than anyone on this thread is giving it credit. Yes, my first reaction is to say "Suck it up and carry on," but I do know how many hours I do not see Mrs and little Wook because I am "working." Most would be surprised. There is a lot of whining here, but with 1000 teenagers (and 34 military staff to supervise. I am not kidding), are you really surprised?

As for walking up and speaking to the Sgt-Maj here.......he is a good cat and I have a lot of time for him, however, the emphasis here is put on using the Cadet Wing CoC and many get their peepee slapped hard for stepping around it. *This place is not normal*.

Please Help.  :-\


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## vonGarvin (21 Sep 2006)

I think the key here is the "M" in RMC.  It is a MILITARY college, and not a CIVILIAN university.  Therefore, expect to do things MILITARY.  Also, given the nature of army-centric training, it is usually more feasible to do things of a "green" nature.  Yes, the water is right there and the air is all around us, but it's much simpler to put on a ruck (if available) and go for a "walk" than it is to do things of a naval flavour or an airforce flavour.
Also, just because your trade is "x" doesn't mean that you will be restricted to "Camp X" in where-ever land.  We had Lieutenant-Commanders with us in Kabul, and a Captain (Navy) with us in Haiti, and he was a hard sea trade!  Imagine that!  He even had to wear the Tac Vest and TV, and you know what?  He looked good doing it!  (By "look good", I mean he didn't seem out of his element).
So, in short, remember the "M" in RMC, and if you can't put yourself 100% into your potential commissioning, then get out of it 100%.


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## Wookilar (21 Sep 2006)

The "M" is a large part of the problem here. Not the "M" in itself, but the lack of it. The emphasis is on the degree. Nothing is allowed to interfere with that. RMC is defiantly more College than Military, and that is not a good thing (in my opinion). Note the ratio of OCdt's to staff. 11 Sqns (11, not 10, you numptys), means 11 Capt's/Lt(N) types, 10 Snr NCO's, 1 Sgt-Maj, 1 LCol, and a handfull of admin positions (Adj, Ops and Training/Transport, etc). I am not kidding when I say 30 some staff to 1000 OCdts.

Also, the lack of connection with the rest of the CF. We need more officers, of all types, to come back here and give presentations. Where they've been, what they've done, units they've been in and tours they've been on. Tunnel vision is rampant here among the non-combat arms types. None of them seem to believe they will ever be in a situation where room service (or their steward) won't be able to sort it out. There is a miss conception that non-green trades never end up in the field, and if they do, it is extremely rare. We need to find a way to fix that, and having staff weenies come for MOC Weekend, for two days, is not enough.

edit: embarrassingly,... for spelling


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## scoutfinch (21 Sep 2006)

Dear heavens... would you children stop whining about how hard you have it?

Presumably you knew what you were getting into when you signed on the dotted line.  Included in that calculation was your free education and all the bullshit that went with it.  Now grow up and act like an adult.  Assume responsibility for the decisions you have made for which all benefit and detriment shall accrue solely at your feet.

And quit this ridiculous whining and wringing of hands.  It is unbecoming of an officer.

from, 
Scoutfinch (who paid $60,000 of her own hard earned money for her three degrees and then joined.)


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## vonGarvin (21 Sep 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Dear heavens... would you children stop whining about how hard you have it?
> 
> Presumably you knew what you were getting into when you signed on the dotted line.  Included in that calculation was your free education and all the bullshit that went with it.  Now grow up and act like an adult.  Assume responsibility for the decisions you have made for which all benefit and detriment shall accrue solely at your feet.
> 
> ...


Hear Here!!!!!!!!!!  (I don't know which "hear/here" is said in "hear hear" or "here here")  :-[

von Garvin (who had Her Majesty pay her money for his degree but then paid back in time, sweat and tears for it...and then some)


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