# The New Death of the City



## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

Cities dying is nothing new.   The Old World is full of abandoned cities.  Some get reborn but many just get covered over by deserts, grazing land and forests.









						The Death of Density? | City Journal
					

To survive and thrive, cities will have to overcome a number of formidable trends.




					www.city-journal.org
				







> After vanquishing everything from newsprint to retail stores, the pulverizing, inescapable power of the Internet has its sights set on cities, or, more precisely, density—aided and abetted by its accomplice, Covid-19.
> 
> If this future—call it the death of density—comes to pass, it spells the unraveling of physical urbanity as we know it, placing cities, especially high-cost cities, in grave danger of descending into a vicious circle of depopulation, followed by de-commercialization, de-monetization, declining services, and so on.
> 
> The events of 2020 crippled the machinery that undergirds density. Taxpaying workers, revenue-generating shoppers, free-spending tourists—the people and activities that finance the infrastructure, mass transit, and municipal workers—are disappearing. And as they head for the exits, we’re left with an urbanism that’s coarser, less forgiving, more dangerous, more radical, and more expensive. If cities won’t dematerialize overnight, they risk, like General MacArthur, slowly fading away.




For some of us, a vanishing few, this is not a new phenomenon.  It duplicates the flight to suburbia, but on a grander scale.




> Consider: it was just a few years ago that global terrorism was seen as an existential threat to cities. September 11 changed the way we safeguard everything from office buildings to airports and touched off years of warfare. But the impact of 9/11 was minor and temporary compared with the long-term, density-destroying impact of Covid-19. The national pandemic accelerated the process of Internet-enabled remote work, which had already been underway for years.



Consder: World War One changed the way we saw the world - politically, economically, technically, socially - authority died and touched off years of warfare.  WWI was followed immediately by the Spanish Flu which killed off millions more than were killed during WWI.  Henry Ford's car started the move from city centre to country estates.   WW2 destroyed many cities requiring them to be rebuilt, with superhighways connecting them and low density commuter suburbs.

In North America cities had been spared the destruction of WWI and WWII but the citizens were strongly affected by the Spanish Flu and previous plagues and pestilence.  When the opportunity came to flee to their own individual fortresses in suburbia and travel in their personal 60 mph cocoons listening to their radio stations they jumped at it.   They abandoned their tenements, their churches and their extended families.

Model T - Commodore 64
WWI - September11th
Spanish Flu - Covid 19
Highways - Internet




How many ancient cities were abandoned due to plague and pestilence caused by too many people in too small a space and too much filth?


About 150 AD  Rome was at its height.  There were over a million inhabitants in Rome where Antontinus Pius of Nimes in southern France was emperor.  He was occupying Britain as far north as the Highland Line while squabbling over Baghdad with the Persians.  The Mediterranean basin was home to 75,000,000 people. The economy was booming as evidenced by the lead dust found in ice cores in Greenland.  The lead dust came from the  Spanish Silver mines that produced Lead as a byproduct.  Or perhaps they were Lead mines that produced Silver as a byproduct.  Either way they underpinned the Mediterranean economy. And the weather was warm.

And then it got cold.  The Roman Climactic Optimum ended.   In Mesopotamia, where the Romans and Persians where having their debates a plague broke out in 165 AD and killed off the Roman invaders.  The survivors returned to their homes and inoculated the rest of the Mediterranean basin.  Including Rome.  That pulse lasted until about 189 by most estimates.  That plague killed off some 7,000,000 people across the Roman empire.  Up to 1/3 of the population in places.  In Rome up to 2000 people a day were dying in 189.   5 days - 10,000 people.  50 days 100,000 people.  50 days and 10% of the 1,000,000 inhabitants of Rome.  And the plague lasted for 24 years - 8,760 days.  Greenland Ice Core lead pollution fell off for the next five centuries and didn't really start recovering until 640 AD. By some estimates the recovery didn't recover until 900 AD.  Sporadic resurgences of plague suppressed any incipient economic recoveries and demand for silver.

In 249 the Plague of Cyprian broke out.  It lasted until 270.  It also drove the Greenland Ice Core lead levels to their lowest since 900 BC and the later years of the Phoenician-Carthaginian economy.

That dying destroyed not just armies but authority and taxpayers.   The Romans invited wandering Germans from the Baltic to fill their taxpaying vacuum and their hollow army.  The Germans came. 

Concurrently the Baltic had become less attractive as its coastal marshes flooded and the Germans went a wandering, taking whatever jobs they could find. the Burgundians, Scandinavian Germans from the island of Bornholm in the Baltic packed up and left - joining the wandering in search of dry land.  They washed up in the upper Rhine, just over the Alps  from Milan as foederati.  Rome also started hiring Frisians and the rest of Beowulf's Baltic buddies, the Angles, Saxons, Goths and Swedes, to man Hadrian's Wall at places like Hexham and Dumfries.  But that is digressing.

Back to the plague and Rome.

In the middle of all this death and dying and job loss and cold weather and hunger the politicians were blamed.  The Five Good Emperors were followed by the 193 AD year of Five Emperors and then the 238 AD year of Six Emperors after Rome's German army mutinied over poor wages.  An unstable anarchy prevailed for over a century, from 165 to Diocletian's reforms in 286 AD.

And Rome was replaced.

Milan, facing the Adriatic, became the center of Western Administration. 

Another thing that the death and dying spawned was a whole raft of new religions as people lost faith in their old gods.   And hermits headed out into the boonies to live long and peaceful lives.  Unfortunately for them their isolation didn't last long as people from the cities soon followed their examples.

By the time Augustine of Carthage was moaning about Germans sacking Rome and his hometown (strangely a city previously deleted by the Romans) in 410 Rome was struggling to exist.   That struggle wasn't helped when Milan was abandoned for Ravenna in 402.

By 400 AD the cold weather was getting colder and the Late Antique Little Ice Age started.  And the Rhine started to regularly freeze over in the winter.  Food supplies became shorter.  People were encouraged by conditions to disperse, cross the ice looking for useful squats and freeholds, rely on themselves,  hunt and gather more.  They couldn't rely on free issues of daily bread, wine and olive oil.  Or trips to the Coliseum.

Rome was sacked by Galla Placidia's Goths under Alaric in 410, threatened by her daughter Honoria's Huns under Attila in 451 and her great-niece Licinia Eudoxia's Vandals under Geiseric in 455.  Concurrently Hengest and Horsa, Anglo-Saxon Frisians of some sort established the current Germanic regime in Britain.

And the cold weather brought more famines and more plagues.

In 547 the Justinian plague spread across both the Med and the Baltic.  Those plagues lasted in cycles as long as the cold weather and the famines.  And people continued to disperse.

In 547 Totila, another Goth, evacuated Rome - emptied it - reduced its population to zero.

Rome was no more.

By 549 Rome was reborn as people started to trickle back into it.  But recovery was impeded by continuing wars, lawlessness in Europe due to the lack of an Imperium over the dispersed population, poor harvests, famines and more plagues.  

Those plagues continued until the weather turned warmer and facilitated the rise of the Carolingian and Mohammedan Imperia about 800 AD and modern cities like Paris and London were born and Rome continued her recovery.  By 800 AD she had recovered to a population of about 100,000.   Roughly the size of her contemporaries, Paris and London but only 10% of her imperial zenith under Antoninus.

Cities come and go. 

And that scares the bejazus out of insurance companies and politicians.

Covid may end up doing what they feared a little bit of water in the streets would do.


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Depends on your career choice. My sister chose the military. They sent her to Cold Lake, Alberta.

Choose the emergency services, and many out of town applicants apply to the big city departments.



> "I found it interesting that those fire fighters with many years experience with a full-time fire department elsewhere were willing to leave to pursue there ( sic ) “dreams” as they put it and work for Toronto Fire."





			https://www.torontofirefighters.org/wp-content/uploads/firewatch/Spring2009.pdf


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> Depends on your career choice. My sister chose the military. They sent her to Cold Lake, Alberta.
> 
> Choose the emergency services, and many out of town applicants apply to the big city departments.
> 
> ...


  Hunh?


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Hunh?


Sorry. Your post was about a page long. 

Pretty hard to reply to a single word, if that is even a real word.


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> Sorry. Your post was about a page long.
> 
> Pretty hard to reply to a single word, if that is even a real word.


Mike - I wasn't talking about firefighters of any sort.   I was talking about people leaving cities because of plagues and technology.  Apologies if you found it long and boring.

Are you sure you weren't responding to somebody else?  Hunh?


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

And for the record I was employing it in the first sense.    
I couldn't make a connection between your comment and my peroration.  
Cheers.

Definition of 'hunh'


hunh in American English​(hʌ̃)

INTERJECTION Informal 
1.  used to ask a question
2.  used to express anger, contempt, etc.: a snorting sound

huh

Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition. Copyright © 2010 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. All rights reserved​


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> I was talking about people leaving cities because of plagues and technology.


If technology allows you to work remotely, wherever that may be, that's great. Not all jobs enjoy that luxury.

Last pandemic was 1918. But, cities like New York and Toronto roared back in the 1920's. 

In spite of the current pandemic, house prices in Toronto are skyrocketing. If it was up to me, as a retired person, I would sell and move to Arizona.


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

Seen -

One of the points made in the original article that got me spinning off in the Roman tangent was 



> The events of 2020 crippled the machinery that undergirds density. Taxpaying workers, revenue-generating shoppers, free-spending tourists—the people and activities that finance the infrastructure, mass transit, *and municipal workers*—are disappearing. And as they head for the exits, we’re left with an urbanism that’s coarser, less forgiving, more dangerous, more radical, and more expensive. If cities won’t dematerialize overnight, they risk, like General MacArthur, slowly fading away.



Firefighters (and for that matter soldiers) exist because of cities.  If people choose to revert to living in widely dispersed family compounds like the Saxons then there will be no garbagemen,  sewer workers or firefighters.   Those people provide necessary services to cities but only exist in their modern high tech forms because of the needs of the cities.   They become redundant if cities are declared surplus to requirement.


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

> And as they head for the exits, we’re left with an urbanism that’s coarser, less forgiving, more dangerous, more radical, and more expensive. If cities won’t dematerialize overnight, they risk, like General MacArthur, slowly fading away.



I live in a former village that was annexed by the City. We don't even have sidewalks. And, they don't pick up our garbage from the back of the house anymore like they used to. We now have to haul it down to the street.

I used to go to a dude ranch in Arizona when I was younger. Figured I would spend my sunset years in the Grand Canyon State. But, the decision is not entirely up to me.

My father was an avid golfer and had the very same ambition. Retire to AZ. But, it didn't work out for him either. I'm not a golfer. Just love what the state has to offer.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Cities dying is nothing new.   The Old World is full of abandoned cities.  Some get reborn but many just get covered over by deserts, grazing land and forests.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are those who enjoy predicting the death of the city as a human construct, especially during times of great crisis of one kind or another, then there are the people who know what they're talking about 


Big cities will not die as a result of the pandemic, says city builder​Will big cities die?

“No, I don’t think so, because the essential forces behind them are very strong,” said Berridge. “Will significant change happen in terms of where we live and how we live? A bit, but slowly.”









						Big cities will not die as a result of the pandemic, says city builder - constructconnect.com - Daily Commercial News
					

Canadian metropolises will thrive despite the pandemic, but some things are going to change. That was the message from Joe Berridge, a partner with Urban Strategies Inc., during the recent Ontario Good Roads Association virtual conference. “The question




					canada.constructconnect.com


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

I think most people tend to stick to their neighbourhoods.

Taking Toronto as an example - only because it is the one I am familiar with - it has upwards of 240 official and unofficial neighbourhoods within the city's boundaries.

I became pretty familiar with most of them only after I started working. But, since I retired, I pretty much stick to my own neighbourhood. Same as when I was a boy.


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## Loachman (1 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> And the weather was warm.
> 
> And then it got cold.  The Roman Climactic Optimum ended.


Ah, yes - climate change.

Strange lack of SUVs and coal-fired generating stations.

Our climate has merely been returning to normal after the Little Ice Age.


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## Weinie (1 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Ah, yes - climate change.
> 
> Strange lack of SUVs and coal-fired generating stations.
> 
> Our climate has merely been returning to normal after the Little Ice Age.


That is heresy. You will be burnt at the stake.


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## Loachman (1 Apr 2021)

Weinie said:


> That is heresy. You will be burnt at the stake.


I've always been a heretic.

Still uncharred, though.


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## GR66 (1 Apr 2021)

Predicting the end of cities while were still in the middle of a pandemic is like saying there is no shoreline when you're in the trough of a wave.

Of course lots of urban businesses and services are hurt.  They are hurt in rural areas too.  De-urbanization will have to overcome a pretty strong 500 year trend if his prediction is to come true:



The other thing to remember when talking about the "death" of cities.  When people are leaving cities they for the most part aren't leaving urban areas for rural areas.  They are leaving the most densely populated urban areas for somewhat less densely populated urban areas.  They're not trading cities for farms.  They're trading downtown cores for places that still have all the amenities of a city within reach, but just have a bit more private space around them.  

The City of Toronto is a city.  To the North-East Markham is a city by name but most Toronto people would call it the suburbs.  North of that Stouffville is a town but only the people around the very edges (a small minority of the population) would be called rural.  A little further North of that is the community of Ballantrae.   A collection of mainly estate homes in "the country".  Almost none of the people in any of these communities leads a remotely rural life.  They are urban dwellers with varying degrees of urban density.  Generally the more money you have, the less density you can afford.  That means that most of the population will continue to live in relatively high density communities.  Maybe not in high cost areas like The Beaches, or Manhattan, but I think cities are not only here to stay, they will continue to grow and spread.

And maybe using Rome as the example of a dying city isn't the best choice.  It did last for 1,000 years afterall!


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## Loachman (1 Apr 2021)

So 800+ more years of Toronto?

Maybe eventual death will not be so bad, after all.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Apr 2021)

GR66 said:


> Predicting the end of cities while were still in the middle of a pandemic is like saying there is no shoreline when you're in the trough of a wave.
> 
> Of course lots of urban businesses and services are hurt.  They are hurt in rural areas too.  De-urbanization will have to overcome a pretty strong 500 year trend if his prediction is to come true:
> 
> ...



But about 90% of those people will not be in North America.

Just sayin'...


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Without being too coarse, but on the subject of girls, in a big city there are lots of them. For those interested in that sort of thing, YMMV


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## Loachman (1 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> Without being too coarse, but on the subject of girls, in a big city there are lots of them. For those interested in that sort of thing, YMMV


I've always found them to be generally shallow and plasticky with no mental or personality difference between them.

Living in a big city is another disadvantage as well. I drive past on Highway 401 fairly regularly, but have not gone south until at least Mississauga for years.


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> There are those who enjoy predicting the death of the city as a human construct, especially during times of great crisis of one kind or another, then there are the people who know what they're talking about
> 
> 
> Big cities will not die as a result of the pandemic, says city builder​Will big cities die?
> ...


Says the guy that builds cities for a living...
🤔


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> I've always found them to be generally shallow and plasticky with no mental or personality difference between them.


I said, "There are lots of them."

Didn't guarantee they would meet your high standards.

I wonder what their opinion was of you?


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

GR66 said:


> Predicting the end of cities while were still in the middle of a pandemic is like saying there is no shoreline when you're in the trough of a wave.
> 
> Of course lots of urban businesses and services are hurt.  They are hurt in rural areas too.  De-urbanization will have to overcome a pretty strong 500 year trend if his prediction is to come true:
> 
> ...


Wrt Rome.  It grew from 753 BC to 165 AD.  It maxed out with the defeat of the Greeks and the Carthaginians in 141 BC and Mithridates ca 65 BC.  I only give the Romans credit for 2 to 300 years.  Milan, Ravenna and Byzantium don't count.  Rome was dead long before Romulus Augustulus took the throne.

Beyond that, I agree with you.  In part.

Cities change, grow and die, just like any other colony.  The react to their environments.  Some adjust and some don't.


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> But about 90% of those people will not be in North America.
> 
> Just sayin'...


And that is another useful point.  Current Torontonians may be inclined to trade the condo for the suburbs.  On the other hand people in Calcutta or Hong Kong might see a Toronto condo as an improvement.

Catastrophes are measured by their time scales.  Is there time to adapt?


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> On the other hand people in Calcutta or Hong Kong might see a Toronto condo as an improvement.


I hope your people people from Calcutta have pretty deep pockets.









						10 Luxury Condos in Toronto (Most Expensive Penthouses 2019)
					

It’s time we take a look at the top 10 MOST EXPENSIVE condos in Toronto. Despite the recent negative news on the LUXURY real estate market, these HIGH-END condominiums in the city are still WELL-COVETED and in RIDICULOUS demand. Is your condo LUXURIOUS enough to be on this list? Let's find out!




					precondo.ca
				












						Average GTA home price to top $1 million for first time in 2021, real estate board says
					

Homebuyers in the Greater Toronto Area better prepare to spend more than they ever have before.



					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				




Your profile tells us you are from Lethbridge, Alberta. Why not tell us what you love about it. Yeah, I know, "It's not Toronto!" But, other than that.









						Lethbridge, Alta. leads the country in crime severity, StatCan says
					

The agency released its results of the Crime Severity Index (CSI) on Friday, a measure that looks at all police-reported crime and weighs it against volume and seriousness of the offences. This year's data put Lethbridge, Alta., the province's fourth most populous city, at the top of the list.



					calgary.ctvnews.ca


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## Blackadder1916 (1 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> I said, "There are lots of them."
> 
> Didn't guarantee they would meet your high standards.



When I was younger, that's how I liked women.  Lots of them, with low standards.  Hell, let's be honest, I didn't change much as I got older.


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> When I was younger, that's how I liked women.  Lots of them, with low standards.  Hell, let's be honest, I didn't change much as I got older.


Sometimes, "Quantity has a quality all its own."


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> Without being too coarse, but on the subject of girls, in a big city there are lots of them. For those interested in that sort of thing, YMMV





mariomike said:


> I hope your people people from Calcutta have pretty deep pockets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's true.  I live in Lethbridge. I like it although we are thinking of moving further out to a smaller town or an acreage.  Short form is I like elbow room and long horizons.  Trees bother me.

Prior to Lethbridge I have lived in Vancouver (while working in Seattle), Indianapolis, Calgary, Willowdale, Oshawa, Whitby, Cornwall, Guelph, London, Peterborough (ON), Nottingham, the real London and my home town of Ayr Scotland.  I reckon I have a fair sampling of urban environments.

I like Toronto, and other cities, for about three days at a time.


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## Good2Golf (2 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> I've always found them to be generally shallow and plasticky with no mental or personality difference between them.



That’s why the beer at the ‘ballet’ is so cheap...


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## OldSolduer (2 Apr 2021)

Weinie said:


> That is heresy. You will be burnt at the stake.


Time for The Spanish Inquisition


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## daftandbarmy (2 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> It's true.  I live in Lethbridge. I like it although we are thinking of moving further out to a smaller town or an acreage.  Short form is I like elbow room and long horizons.  Trees bother me.
> 
> Prior to Lethbridge I have lived in Vancouver (while working in Seattle), Indianapolis, Calgary, Willowdale, Oshawa, Whitby, Cornwall, Guelph, London, Peterborough (ON), Nottingham, the real London and my home town of Ayr Scotland.  I reckon I have a fair sampling of urban environments.
> 
> I like Toronto, and other cities, for about three days at a time.



Blairmore and Coleman could use some 'settlers'


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> I like elbow room and long horizons.


I bet you would love the Grand Canyon state as much as I do!   



> Give me land, lots of land under starry skies above
> Don't fence me in
> Let me ride through the wide open country that I love
> Don't fence me in


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## Kirkhill (2 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> I bet you would love the Grand Canyon state as much as I do!



I do indeed.  I've only had the pleasure of a few days in Arizona but thoroughly enjoyed it.  Particularly enjoyed Ventana Canyon.


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> I do indeed.  I've only had the pleasure of a few days in Arizona but thoroughly enjoyed it.  Particularly enjoyed Ventana Canyon.


They say it's acceptable for a grown man to cry at funerals - and the Grand Canyon.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Seen -
> 
> One of the points made in the original article that got me spinning off in the Roman tangent was
> 
> ...


Problem in Vancouver is that those people can`t afford to live here, even my friend who is RCMP and his wife is a ER nurse, could not afford to buy a apartment here in North Van. Housing prices have disconnected from the local wages, small companies are moving to the suburbs to be closer to workers and to avoid traffic jams.


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2021)

There are over 9.5 million people in the Greater Golden Horseshoe.

This explains why Toronto real estate is so expensive,


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## daftandbarmy (3 Apr 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Problem in Vancouver is that those people can`t afford to live here, even my friend who is RCMP and his wife is a ER nurse, could not afford to buy a apartment here in North Van. Housing prices have disconnected from the local wages, small companies are moving to the suburbs to be closer to workers and to avoid traffic jams.



A buddy of mine runs a GM dealership in North Van. None of his staff, apart from a handful, can live there and most commute in from as far away as Langley etc.

If the 2nd Narrows Bridge is closed for some reason in the morning, the office is empty...


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Apr 2021)

I know several of my friends have taken their businesses out of North Van for that very reason.


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## mariomike (4 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> WW2 destroyed many cities requiring them to be rebuilt, with superhighways connecting them and low density commuter suburbs.


Because those post-war super-highways were not common in Britain, Germany and Japan during the war, the Aiming Points were usually the center of the city.



> Obviously we prefer to hit factories, shipyards, and railways. It damages Hitler's war machine most. But those people who work in these plants live close to them. Therefore, we hit your houses and you. We regret the necessity for this.



That is what it said in propaganda radio broadcasts and leaflets dropped over enemy cities.

After the war, many cities ( Toronto for example ) re-located the rail freight yards ( passenger rail service remained downtown ) and stock yards and associated meat processing plants, as well as other heavy industry out of town. But, it's not as though the land was allowed to sit vacant. It was put to residential and commercial use.

eg: The Railway Lands








						Railway Lands - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The Stockyards





						Stock Yards Village - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## BillN (4 Apr 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Problem in Vancouver is that those people can`t afford to live here, even my friend who is RCMP and his wife is a ER nurse, could not afford to buy a apartment here in North Van. Housing prices have disconnected from the local wages, small companies are moving to the suburbs to be closer to workers and to avoid traffic jams.


Colin, I left home in North Van 44 years ago when I joined the Forces........now I can't afford to go home.  My last visit was about 3 years ago and I was shocked at the changes, it certainly isn't the quiet place I grew up in.  Sad really, I always thought I'd end up back there.


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## mariomike (4 Apr 2021)

BillN said:


> Colin, I left home in North Van 44 years ago when I joined the Forces........now I can't afford to go home.  My last visit was about 3 years ago and I was shocked at the changes, it certainly isn't the quiet place I grew up in.  Sad really, I always thought I'd end up back there.


They even wrote a book about that.








						You Can't Go Home Again - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Kirkhill (4 Apr 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Problem in Vancouver is that those people can`t afford to live here, even my friend who is RCMP and his wife is a ER nurse, could not afford to buy a apartment here in North Van. Housing prices have disconnected from the local wages, small companies are moving to the suburbs to be closer to workers and to avoid traffic jams.



Not sure that that is a new problem either.



This is a common image of industrial era cities - terraces, row houses, tenements.  Nearly all have passed through phases as "low rent" districts.

They are what Karl Marx was seeing when he wrote Das Kapital.

What most people fail to realize is that these were built as model homes.  They were designed to attract, and keep workers from the farms.  The mill owners saw it as being in their best interests to treat their workers well.  They didn't have a ready supply of knowledgeable workers.  They had to attract them and train them and keep them.  So they built new single family dwellings with, originally, long back yards for growing vegetables and keeping chickens and pigs.  They built churches for the community and libraries and schools for the kids to train the replacements for the parents.

And they were successful in attracting farm workers and turning them into mill workers.   And more farm workers wanted to become mill workers.  

And the mill workers started subletting their houses, probably to family, and then subdividing the houses.  And you ended up with more people than the services in the area were designed to handle.  And then you found Karl Marx's slums.  

The basic "problem" was that the terraces were designed by successful middle class gentry used to living in single family dwellings but were occupied by large, extended families of agricultural labourers used to "pigging in" on top of one another in crowded conditions.    In 1904 my grandfather's mother was taking in boarders in her country row house.  She was a miner's wife.  She lived in a group of  8 adjoining houses sharing one common washhouse/laundry and a common dry privy where you dumped quicklime instead of flushing.  Each house had two rooms.  A front room and a kitchen.  And she took in boarders...

These are the same people that were living in tenements.  They could tolerate living a little rougher than the middle class gentry anticipated.  

Slums weren't created by owners.  They were created by workers.  Workers that aspired to work in the city but couldn't afford to live there.  And they couldn't afford to live there because they were competing for jobs that weren't there.  Surplus labour.   So the owners no longer had to worry about attracting a work force.  The workers were competing to replace each other.

Meanwhile the middle class gentry relocated away from the over-flowing tenements.










						New Lanark - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Bournville - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				









It's only a little over two centuries ago that Richard Arkwright built his first factory for cotton manufacturing in what is now the centre of the city of Manchester.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Not sure that that is a new problem either.
> 
> View attachment 64841
> 
> ...



And now, thanks to gentrification, the term 'tenament' is a very desirable (and expensive) inner-city option:

Not far from a mate's place in London N4 Digby Crescent, N4


----------



## mariomike (7 Apr 2021)

Financial Post had this to say on the subject,









						Toronto home prices surge more than 20% as bubble debate heats up
					

Detached homes in the 905 area code sold for 31.4% more, an average of $1.32 million




					financialpost.com


----------



## Loachman (7 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> Because those post-war super-highways were not common in Britain, Germany and Japan during the war, the Aiming Points were usually the center of the city.


There were, however, extensive and efficient rail networks.

'Twas the surge in development of a commuter rail network around London in the 1800s that enabled workers to move out to what became suburbs, and led to the creation of my town of birth, ten miles from Buckingham Palace. Trains still run at ten-minute intervals during peak periods, fifteen-minute intervals off-peak, and greater intervals late in the evening.

Not all aiming points were city-centres. Industrial areas and workers had priority due to the lack of precision, as did rail networks.

A residential area behind my grandparents' house was taken out by a V1 strike in January 1945. Their back windows were blown in.

There's been a parking lot there since the rubble was cleared, and a nearby church was heavily damaged but eventually repaired. Over a hundred buildings were damaged in that strike. The weapon was launched from an He-111 bomber over the North Sea.


----------



## mariomike (7 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> There were, however, extensive and efficient rail networks.


Right.






						Transport Plan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




But, there was a high price to be paid when bombing rail yards in Occupied France. Extreme measures had to be taken to keep friendly civilian casualties to an absolute minimum.

For example, Revigny, France rail yard cost 41 Lancasters shot down, on the three raids in July 1944. Of the 290 aircrew, only 59 survived. Of those who survived, most were taken prisoner. A few evaded capture.

( Those 290 included many RCAF members. )


----------



## Loachman (7 Apr 2021)

There was a high price paid when bombing most targets.

And no good defence against nightfighters.

See "Schräge Musik".

At least the Yanks, bombing in daylight, could see it coming.

Although that might not have been much better, they could, at least, defend themselves.

I once knew a few bomber guys.


----------



## mariomike (7 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> See "Schräge Musik".


Right. It killed my uncle, and the entire 7-man Lancaster  crew ( 5 RCAF and 2 RAF ).


----------



## mariomike (7 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Not all aiming points were city-centres.


Sometimes the target choice was political.

One RCAF squadron was briefed by their Station Commander. He explained that the Nazis had convinced the German people that at the end of WW1 their armed forces had remained still on foreign soil and basically undefeated, and that they, the German forces of WW1, had been betrayed by politicians at home. "He then pointed to the cord running across the map to the city of Dresden, and said, 'There are going to be a lot of people in Dresden tonight who are going to find out that war can be a very nasty thing. Never again will any future German government be able to say that the country was fairly well intact but still defeated.' "
"Incidentally, it will show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do."
Battlefields in the Air: Canadians in Bomber Command page 152.



> A residential area behind my grandparents' house was taken out by a V1 strike in January 1945.



My uncle and his crew bombed the Domleger V1 Rocket site.

They also bombed Caen France in support of the Army.

Bomber Command was very busy in the summer of 1944.



> Industrial areas and workers had priority due to the lack of precision,



I don't know about England. But, from what I have read of the strategic bombing surveys of Germany and Japan after the war, factory workers tended to live close to their place of employment.


----------



## Loachman (8 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> Sometimes the target choice was political.
> 
> Bomber Command was very busy in the summer of 1944.
> 
> I don't know about England. But, from what I have read of the strategic bombing surveys of Germany and Japan after the war, the workers tended to live close to their places of employment.


Hence "not all" vice "none".

Very busy before and after, as well.

Yes, especially by our idea of close to work, but not necessarily in or near the middle of cities.

Few people during my childhood in England owned cars, but what was not within reasonable walking distance was accessible via an excellent and inexpensive bus and rail network and, for those in London, the Underground.

Shops were somewhat distributed, as food and milk were all fresh. We did not have a refrigerator until 1962, nor did anybody else whom I knew. My father did not own a car with an electric starter until we came to Canada in 1965.


----------



## Loachman (8 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> I said, "There are lots of them."
> 
> Didn't guarantee they would meet your high standards.
> 
> I wonder what their opinion was of you?


Yes, there was no shortage of supply.

Ability to hold a conversation about anything other than shoes is a high standard?

I have no idea. I didn't ask. The answer would probably have been about shoes, anyway.

Perhaps we should have gone to the library instead of bar-hopping, but the library didn't have much of a beer selection and nobody in our smallish group knew where it was anyway.

I just gave up and watched the other guys and discreetly chuckled.


----------



## mariomike (8 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Yes, there was no shortage of supply.
> 
> Ability to hold a conversation about anything other than shoes is a high standard?


There used to be a lot of dance parties. Other than some polite small talk, you didn't have to say much.

Dancing allowed you to silently express your horizontal desires while vertical.

I guess online dating is the big thing now. I read that 90% are satisfied. The others are MIA. < Just kidding.


----------



## Loachman (8 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Not sure that that is a new problem either.
> 
> View attachment 64841
> 
> This is a common image of industrial era cities - terraces, row houses, tenements.  Nearly all have passed through phases as "low rent" districts.


Much like the last house in which we lived before moving to Canada, and the first one that my parents bought.

Memories...

63 Durban Road Beckenham, complete with "long back yards for growing vegetables and keeping chickens and pigs", although we never had the latter and I cannot remember growing the former. There has been a single-story addition across the back, which has replaced the original outside toilet and coal bunker combination. You can see several examples of those in Kirkhill's photograph - the shed-like structures attached to the backs of some houses. The toilet had a ceiling-height tank with a pull chain and was not a place to spend any length of time in comfort. The only other plumbing when we moved in was a cold water pipe to the kitchen. The only sources of heat were coal fire places, but "electric fires" (space heaters) were used in most rooms. I still remember my father lighting the coal fire in what would, today, be known as a family room, and shivering until the heat began to flow outwards. Houses were not insulated, and all walls were double-thicknesses of red brick plastered on the inside. My parents quickly converted the smallest of the four bedrooms into a bathroom with an odd-looking stubby copper water heater, while most of the rest of these houses still lacked indoor bathrooms.

Front View (with open gate) The front door has been enclosed to form a porch much more recently.

I found real estate ads for two of these houses, identical (in their original form) to ours although one had a mirror-image floor plan, a couple of years ago. I have no idea what my parents paid, but the asking price in those ads was C$1.2M. Many other upgrades had been done inside and out, but the rooms were still small and that price really blew me away. I joked with my mother that they should have kept it and rented it out for a few more decades before selling.

The Coach & Horses, under the pinpoint, was my grandfather's favourite pub. Their house is to the left, and the second one down from Burnhill Road. The parking lot that resulted from the January 1945 V1 strike is the one straddling Fairfield Road. Christ Church, across Lea Road, lost a good chunk of its roof and south wall, and a few houses on the opposite side of Burnhill Road were destroyed or heavily damaged and replaced - they are a slightly more-modern style. Further to the left, across from my grandparents' house and marked "Q Bar & Kitchen" was, when we lived there, The Three Tuns (but now "Zizzi" - bleccchhhh). David Bowie performed there several times, but well after we left. "Hak's Barbers" was originally a fire station, but a greengrocer when we lived there and for many years after. There was still a hand water pump for local residential use at the base of its left-hand corner (as in this view), but no longer functional.

Other Beckenham trivia: Colour Sergeant Bourne of Zulu fame, who retired as a LCol, resides in the same cemetery as my grandparents. The original Bethlehem Hospital ("Bedlam") was also moved to an area just south of Beckenham in 1930.

2 Kelsey Square Front View The centre of the three was my grandparents' house. These, and the ones across, were the servants' lodgings for Kelsey Manor, which was demolished, like many other stately homes, between the wars. Kelsey Lodge on the right-hand side was the senior servant's lodging.

My father's older brother was killed in Burma on 20 May 1944. His name is on the War Memorial on this plaque. When his medals arrived, my grandmother threw them away.


----------



## Kirkhill (8 Apr 2021)

8 Kings Rd Walton-On-Thames - outdoor water closet with original Crapper plumbing.   As an 8 year old I found the outside cuggy much more invigorating than that effete one inside by the bedrooms.

And as for "an odd-looking stubby copper water heater,"   - a "geyser" by any chance?







Don't forget the stacks of shillings to feed the gas and electric meters....


----------



## Loachman (8 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> 8 Kings Rd Walton-On-Thames - outdoor water closet with original Crapper plumbing.   As an 8 year old I found the outside cuggy much more invigorating than that effete one inside by the bedrooms.
> 
> And as for "an odd-looking stubby copper water heater,"   - a "geyser" by any chance?
> 
> ...


Most people had small Geysers (the brand name, but pronounced "geezer") above the kitchen sink, spliced into the plumbing and with a long, thin, left-right movable faucet to direct the steaming hot water. There was a regular type cold-only tap at the sink.

Our water heater was a short, wide cylinder with short truncated cones top and bottom, and relatively large domed caps on those, and almost as wide as it was high. It was wrapped in off-white fabric-covered insulation. I cannot find a picture of anything like it online.

No washing machines, either, but electric clothes boilers which sometimes doubled as sources of hot water for baths.

My grandmother had to feed the meters. They were inside the basement coal bunker. It was behind a regular door off of the basement livingroom, fed through a manhole cover on the sidewalk in front of the house.

My grandparents no longer used coal, having blocked off all of the fireplaces and installed "electric fires", but there were still some small chunks and dust in that room.

The basement livingroom and kitchen/diningroom had regular windows that gave marvellous views of slimy, black brick walls with patches of moss. The wrought-iron fence in front of the house in the photograph surrounded the deep pit that allowed sunlight to reach the basement livingroom. My parents and I lived there until I was two. Everybody slept in the second-floor bedrooms, and we had the basement for other uses. The bathtub was also in the basement kitchen, with a hinged door over it for dual use and a clothes boiler on a ledge at the tap end.

And my grandmother had an Electric Bed Warmer, like these but with a long wooden handle like the earlier coal-burning ones.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (8 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Much like the last house in which we lived before moving to Canada, . . .





Kirkhill said:


> 8 Kings Rd Walton-On-Thames - outdoor water closet with original Crapper plumbing.   As an 8 year old I found the outside cuggy much more invigorating than that effete one inside by the bedrooms.



This came to mind


----------



## Kirkhill (9 Apr 2021)

Aye Obadiah.  You tell the young uns that today and they won't believe ye.

I mind well getting up in the morning to sweep out the ashes in the fire in the living room and carrying them out to the dust bin.   Then come back in and lay a new fire in the grate ready for lighting.  Rolling newspaper donuts for a bed.  Splitting kindling with an axe and laying it on top of the paper.   Stacking coal on top of the kindling -  lumps not too big nor too small.   I tell ye.  6 year old I were then.

Getting to put the match to paper before setting down to watch Stingray to heat up the room before Dad got home.

Going out at night in the cold, and the rain and the dark to refill the coal scuttle.  Having to beat big lumps of coal with a hammer to reduce them to small pieces that could be carried in the scuttle.  Ah.  The smell of a blazing coal fire on a cold night.  Sheer luxury!

And do you mind the winter of '63.  Aye.  That were a winter.  The snow was over my wellies!  Froze my knees making snowmen in short trousers and wellies.  I tell ye right enough.


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Stingray


Anything can happen in the next half hour.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Anything can happen in the next half hour.








I was more a Thunderbirds fan.


----------



## Kirkhill (9 Apr 2021)

I was a Gerry and Sylvia Anderson fan.  Supercar, Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds .... And then we came to Canada.


----------



## Weinie (9 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> I was a Gerry and Sylvia Anderson fan.  Supercar, Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds .... And then we came to Canada.


We had a combo coal and wood stove when I was growing up in the 60's in Nova Scotia. We tamped it down to get through the night, but it was always excruciatingly cold in the morning, until you got more coal/wood in the stove.  Coal was much more expensive than wood. As an 8 year old, in the fall I split wood till my hands bled. In the winter carried some inside for cooking, heat for the evening, and the morning. As per a previous post, there was no insulation in the house, no running water (but a pump) and no indoor plumbing. When I tell *my* kids that today, they can't believe it.


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> I was more a Thunderbirds fan.


I started with Supercar, and then Fireball XL5 (available on Youtube), then Stingray, then Thunderbirds, then Captain Scarlet, then whatever-that-aliens-harvesting-organs-thing was called with human actors instead of puppets.

Walmart has all seasons of Thunderbirds, but I'm going to have to wait for almost four weeks now.


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> And then we came to Canada.


Captain Scarlet was shown in Canada, at least in Ontario.

That was one of the first programmes that I ever saw on a colour television - that and Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In.

You bet your bippy...


----------



## Kirkhill (9 Apr 2021)

Scarlet didn't make his way up to CHEX in Peterborough.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> I started with Supercar, and then Fireball XL5 (available on Youtube), then Stingray, then Thunderbirds, then Captain Scarlet, then whatever-that-aliens-harvesting-organs-thing was called with human actors instead of puppets.
> 
> Walmart has all seasons of Thunderbirds, but I'm going to have to wait for almost four weeks now.









And you grew up to be an 'Airmobile Parker'


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Deprived, you were.

I cannot recall what channel carried it in Stratford.


----------



## Weinie (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Deprived, you were.
> 
> I cannot recall what channel carried it in Stratford.


And what about Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot. The only thing to watch on Saturday mornings.


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Never heard of him.


----------



## FJAG (9 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> I was a Gerry and Sylvia Anderson fan.  Supercar, Fireball XL5, Stingray, Thunderbirds .... And then we came to Canada.



Back in the late 50s and early sixties, we had a grand total of two TV stations serving Toronto - CBLT (CBC) and WKBW (ABC) out of Buffalo - Between them we did get Supercar, Fireball XL5 and Thunderbirds, not to mention The Friendly Giant, Captain Kangeroo, Razzle Dazzle (Alan Hamel and Michele Finney), and American Bandstand.

We didn't need much more since most of our free time was spent playing road hockey anyway.

🍻


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Never heard of him.


FJAG said:


> We didn't need much more since most of our free time was spent playing road hockey anyway.


We had a street full of houses under construction and a cornfield across the road.

And lots of cheap firecrackers from several reasonably-close convenience stores.

I still enjoy the aromas of still-curing concrete and freshly-cut corn, and all aspects of pyrotechnics.


----------



## Kirkhill (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Never heard of him.
> 
> We had a street full of houses under construction and a cornfield across the road.
> 
> ...


And diesel exhaust ... Especially at -20


----------



## FJAG (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Never heard of him.
> 
> We had a street full of houses under construction and a cornfield across the road.
> 
> ...



Ours was fully developed (in fact our house was the last one built being an infill house onto an existing lot) in a fully developed 1940s/1950s neighbourhood. We had only 16 houses on the street as it was a short cross-street connecting two longer ones but everyone of those houses had a baby boomer family. I've lost track of the numbers but I think there were about a dozen boys around my age and just a few less girls. More than enough for an almost constant daily road-hockey game which only stopped for supper hour and the occasional "car!"


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> And diesel exhaust ... Especially at -20


That, too - from lurking around railway stations and hanging on to the pole on the open back deck of London buses.

And burning coal.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Apr 2021)

FYI... reeks of classic left wing pandering to the latte sipping champagne socilaist masses, as opposed to anything scientifically/reality based, but is interesting nonetheless:


What is Future Cities Canada?​Future Cities Canada is a collaborative platform that harnesses the momentum for change already in progress in cities.
It brings together people, ideas, platforms and innovations from across sectors to address two of the most pressing issues of our time: inequality and climate change and their consequential challenges facing cities.

Drawing on the expertise of its founding organizations and together with a diverse and growing network of partners, Future Cities Canada’s unique collaborative infrastructure will accelerate innovation to build regenerative, inclusive cities of the future.
Now is the time for us to realize the potential of cities​The opportunities to transform cities are growing at an unprecedented rate:

Canada’s governments have committed $750 billion over the next 10 years, sparking private investment that can multiply it sevenfold.
The United Nations’ Sustainable Development Goals (SDG) recognize the central role of urbanization in sustainable development to “make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.” This priority will shape public policy and development finance for the next 15 years, making the “urban SDG” a tremendous opportunity for cities.
Cities are leading the way toward the Paris Agreement commitments, with mayors across the globe setting bold carbon reduction targets and creating decisive implementation plans.
New technologies allow responsive cities to monitor, connect and share insight-bearing data at an exceptional scale.
The Government of Canada has made commitments to advance reconciliation and renew a nation-to-nation relationship with Indigenous peoples. There is increasing recognition of the value of restoring Indigenous presence to our urban spaces across the country. 
Future Cities Canada is the cross-sector collaborative platform Canada needs to accelerate innovation to transform cities for the benefit of us all.






						About Us - Evergreen FCC
					






					futurecitiescanada.ca


----------



## mariomike (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> More than enough for an almost constant daily road-hockey game which only stopped for supper hour and the occasional "car!"


My mother was telling me the other day about little Scott xxxx who lived a few doors down. He was just a toddler wandering alone on the street in front of our house.

Seeing that, my mother went out to get him off the street. The man driving the car lectured Mom to "take better care of your kid!"   

Boy, remembering the cars back then. They were beautiful.


----------



## FJAG (9 Apr 2021)

mariomike said:


> ...
> Boy, remembering the cars back then. They were beautiful.



And covered in rust after the first winter.

🤔


----------



## mariomike (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> And covered in rust after the first winter.
> 
> 🤔


Some of our neighbors used to trade in when the ashtray was full.


----------



## Kirkhill (9 Apr 2021)

Postulation - Cities need free energy to survive - Free muscle power or Free electricity.  

How else are politicians going to give free stuff to their mobs and declare themselves socialists?

Thus the fascination with "free" wind and solar.  

The energy is free.

The conversion to useful energy is less so.

Europe and China love green energy - They have no energy resources of their own and are thus disadvantaged.

Much better to hamstring the competition, bring everybody down to their level and even up the playing field.


----------



## Weinie (9 Apr 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Postulation - Cities need free energy to survive - Free muscle power or Free electricity.
> 
> How else are politicians going to give free stuff to their mobs and declare themselves socialists?
> 
> ...


And you have captured the huge hypocrisy/problem that we (Government) have embraced. (for any Government or Political eavesdroppers on here) It is incredibly advantageous for other nations to embrace green energy, but not at our expense.


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Cities are leading the way toward the Paris Agreement commitments, with mayors across the globe setting bold carbon reduction targets and creating decisive implementation plans.


I hope that all of those soft, sheltered city dwellers are Little House on the Prairie fans.

Because that's what their lifestyles are going to be like, at the absolute best and if their scriptwriters are kind to them, if they ever achieve their zero-carbon fantasies.

Those that do not starve to death when the food runs out, that is.

Meanwhile, we ship manufacturing jobs to China so that pollution can be caused there instead of here.


----------



## Weinie (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> I hope that all of those soft, sheltered city dwellers are Little House on the Prairie fans.
> 
> Because that's what their lifestyles are going to be like, at the absolute best and if their scriptwriters are kind to them, if they ever achieve their zero-carbon fantasies.
> 
> ...


Yup.

If I were 30 years younger, and had the financial resources at that time, I would have bought acreage on a lake, installed wind and solar power, and completely cut myself off from the misguided chaos that has erupted during the last ten years.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs has been so bastardized that I don't even recognize it anymore, and most Gen (whatever letter or term they describe themselves with now) don't even acknowledge the first three on the list. I grew up in a different time, and I refuse to kowtow to or abdicate my responsibilities as a person, father, or citizen.


----------



## mariomike (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> Ours was fully developed (in fact our house was the last one built being an infill house onto an existing lot) in a fully developed 1940s/1950s neighbourhood. We had only 16 houses on the street as it was a short cross-street connecting two longer ones but everyone of those houses had a baby boomer family. I've lost track of the numbers but I think there were about a dozen boys around my age and just a few less girls. More than enough for an almost constant daily road-hockey game which only stopped for supper hour and the occasional "car!"


FJAG, I think they were better times for kids. We used to roam freely. Free range!   

Whatever house we ended up at, it was understood lunch would be served.

The adults I came in contact with seemed pretty satisfied with the way their lives were going. That confidence in the future was passed on their children.


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Wifi has become the base of the pyramid, and a very thick one.


Weinie said:


> Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs has been so bastardized that I don't even recognize it anymore


Wifi has become the base of the pyramid, and a very thick one.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> Wifi has become the base of the pyramid, and a very thick one.
> 
> Wifi has become the base of the pyramid, and a very thick one.



Meanwhile, during COVID


----------



## FJAG (9 Apr 2021)

Weinie said:


> Yup.
> 
> If I were 30 years younger, and had the financial resources at that time, I would have bought acreage on a lake, installed wind and solar power, and completely cut myself off from the misguided chaos that has erupted during the last ten years.
> 
> Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs has been so bastardized that I don't even recognize it anymore, and most Gen (whatever letter or term they describe themselves with now) don't even acknowledge the first three on the list. I grew up in a different time, and I refuse to kowtow to or abdicate my responsibilities as a person, father, or citizen.



Sometimes priorities shift.

Our house before this one was on the shore of Lake Erie in the middle of wind power country. There was a big honking wind turbine exactly 598.5 metres from my front steps (as measured by Google Earth) yet almost half of my monthly power bill was "delivery" because we were in a rural community. Left there some seven years ago when things were idyllic but since then high water levels and wind have threatened the whole shoreline with disintegration (I strongly recommend that if you settle on a Lake don't make it a "Great Lake" but a little one with stable water levels).

We left there when things were good because as we were growing older we didn't want to live 12 kilometers from the closest supermarket nor 26 kilometres from the nearest clinic and hospital.

I greatly miss not stepping out on my deck in the morning with a cup of coffee looking out at nothing between me and Rochester except blue water and a blue sky but don't regret the move.



mariomike said:


> FJAG, I think they were better times for kids. We used to roam freely. Free range!
> 
> Whatever house we ended up at, it was understood lunch would be served.
> 
> The adults I came in contact with seemed pretty satisfied with the way their lives were going. That confidence in the future was passed on their children.



I agree with all of those and add one more. As I was finishing high school I was never worried about whether or not I would find a job. The question was always "which job do I want to take?" Mind you I was in one of the two grade 13 classes that graduated from my high school out of the twenty-two grade 9 classes that I started with. We had a lot of drop outs along the way in those days but they all got jobs too.

🍻


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> We had a lot of drop outs along the way in those days but they all got jobs too.


And most of those jobs likely "require" a university degree today.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Apr 2021)

Loachman said:


> And most of those jobs likely "require" a university degree today.



Like 'Army Officer', right?


----------



## Loachman (9 Apr 2021)

Yes, but one did actually need a diploma in the good old days.


----------



## mariomike (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> As I was finishing high school I was never worried about whether or not I would find a job. The question was always "which job do I want to take?" Mind you I was in one of the two grade 13 classes that graduated from my high school out of the twenty-two grade 9 classes that I started with. We had a lot of drop outs along the way in those days but they all got jobs too.
> 
> 🍻


I think we "Baby Boomers" have had it pretty good as we pass through the "python of life". 

Many people before us didn't have the same opportunity and freedoms. The Depression. The War. They weren't our problems. 

The pandemic is likely the first real hardship some of us have faced.

Do your work, live your life. Simple as that.

I wouldn't be qualified to apply for my old job now.





						Paramedicine | Joint Programs
					






					www.utsc.utoronto.ca


----------



## FJAG (9 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Like 'Army Officer', right?



Yeah that's changed. 

I went OCTP which only required junior matric in those days (grade 12 in ON and 11 elsewhere). My whole aim was to avoid university and I ended up being one of the 46.71% of the CAF's officer corps in 1997 who didn't have a university degree and which the "Report to the Prime Minister on the Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces” of 25 March 1997 and the cabal of academics advising the government at the time considered to be a "remarkably ill-educated officer corps, surely one of the worst in the Western world.” Notwithstanding that I think that I turned out okay in the end - even have a shiny professional degree now and everything.

I've always thought there's a mighty difference between the present herd of folks who take 4 years of "basket weaving 101" and those of us back in the 60s and 70s who took one concentrated year of "warfighting 101". I just saw the balance leaning the other way than they did. Frankly I never saw that the university education amongst the 53.29% developed any particular spark of greatness in them. There were highly competent and highly stupid individuals in both groups in more or less equal numbers.

But maybe I was wrong. How's that highly degreed herd running the CAF these days doin'?

😇


----------



## Weinie (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> Yeah that's changed.
> 
> I went OCTP which only required junior matric in those days (grade 12 in ON and 11 elsewhere). My whole aim was to avoid university and I ended up being one of the 46.71% of the CAF's officer corps in 1997 who didn't have a university degree and which the "Report to the Prime Minister on the Leadership and Management of the Canadian Forces” of 25 March 1997 and the cabal of academics advising the government at the time considered to be a "remarkably ill-educated officer corps, surely one of the worst in the Western world.” Notwithstanding that I think that I turned out okay in the end - even have a shiny professional degree now and everything.
> 
> ...


I am one of the few persons at my rank left in the CAF that lacks a degree . I came out of the ranks. I am also sure that many I encounter in my job, at the Strat level, require a degree. They do require some exposure to the CAF, and also reality, but mostly common sense , which seems to be in short supply.


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## FJAG (9 Apr 2021)

Weinie said:


> I am one of the few persons at my rank left in the CAF that lacks a degree . I came out of the ranks. I am also sure that many I encounter in my job, at the Strat level, require a degree. They do require some exposure to the CAF, and also reality, but mostly common sense , which seems to be in short supply.



I do acknowledge that during my era the degreed folk had a certain advantage in that, on average, they'd had four more years of life experience that we OCTP folk even though that life experience came in the somewhat twisted world that universities were even then. Very few of them had any education that provided an advantage in our respective military careers.

I do certainly value education. I still maintain that one of the best courses I ever had was the much despised Staff School that used to run out of Avenue Road. It taught me how to study and how to work with folks who weren't gunners like me (or even Army). I doubt that I would have found law school as easy as I did without what Staff School taught me.

For me that's the point. We should take our people in early, teach them the critical elements of their job while they are young and have the physical stamina to run platoons and fly fighter jets etc and then start feeding in the necessary education to develop critical thinking and even outside experiences. It's not the degree that matters; its the quality, relevance and timeliness of the education that matters. And incidentally, those programs should be equally available to our NCOs who show promise for advancement into critical technical or leadership roles.

I just don't see why we allow our folks to waste four critical years in their young lives which for the most part teaches them nothing that applies directly to their future careers. (And yes I do know that there are some who take very relevant programs. Those can and should continue - I think I've gone down this rabbit hole before in another thread)

🍻


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## daftandbarmy (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> I do acknowledge that during my era the degreed folk had a certain advantage in that, on average, they'd had four more years of life experience that we OCTP folk even though that life experience came in the somewhat twisted world that universities were even then. Very few of them had any education that provided an advantage in our respective military careers.
> 
> I do certainly value education. I still maintain that one of the best courses I ever had was the much despised Staff School that used to run out of Avenue Road. It taught me how to study and how to work with folks who weren't gunners like me (or even Army). I doubt that I would have found law school as easy as I did without what Staff School taught me.
> 
> ...



'Because, Somalia' (and it seems that recent events have proven how well this and other similar 'improvements' have worked, I guess):

UP FROM THE ASHES: THE RE-PROFESSIONALIZATION OF THE CANADIAN FORCES AFTER THE SOMALIA AFFAIR* 

"Young’s recommendations came down heavily in favour of almost totally revamping the education and professional development systems for both officers and senior non-commissioned officers. Officers were henceforth to be degree holders. The military education curriculum was to be revised, an independent professional military journal was to be established, an ombudsman – working outside the chain of command – was to be appointed, work was to begin on defining a Canadian Forces’ ethos, and the Canadian Forces Staff College was to broaden and to liberalize its educational offerings."



			http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/no3/doc/06-bercuson-eng.pdf


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## lenaitch (9 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> Sometimes priorities shift.
> 
> Our house before this one was on the shore of Lake Erie in the middle of wind power country. There was a big honking wind turbine exactly 598.5 metres from my front steps (as measured by Google Earth) yet almost half of my monthly power bill was "delivery" because we were in a rural community. Left there some seven years ago when things were idyllic but since then high water levels and wind have threatened the whole shoreline with disintegration (I strongly recommend that if you settle on a Lake don't make it a "Great Lake" but a little one with stable water levels).
> 
> ...



Yes they do. I left Toronto in '73 (work took me back from'85-'95 but we lived outside the city in the country).  Most of my career was very small towns but since '95 we've lived mostly in the weeds.  The closest thing to a neighbourhood is our current 2 acre subdivision lot.  Lately we've been debating whether to move again to be closer to our daughter who is 3 hours away. As we get older, the idea of living 'back of beyond' has lost its lustre.

I'd rather look at water than own on it.  If nothing else, it's generally cheaper.

Wondering if you were bothered by the turbines.  I've heard people complain of headaches, etc. caused by low frequency humming, although I'm not sure that's been empirically established. 

The problem with cities is, while they generate wealth, they are dependent  in just about everyone way; such as food and energy production, waste disposal, construction materials, etc.   The relationship would work better if they, mostly politicians and Young Urban Professionals, weren't so damned dismissive of the country around them.


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## FJAG (10 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Because, Somalia' (and it seems that recent events have proven how well this and other similar 'improvements' have worked, I guess):
> 
> UP FROM THE ASHES: THE RE-PROFESSIONALIZATION OF THE CANADIAN FORCES AFTER THE SOMALIA AFFAIR*
> 
> ...



You do know that when MND Young "also commissioned four experts – three Canadian military historians, and one political scientist – to report within the same time frame on what they believed was wrong in the Canadian Forces, and what ought to be done about it." that one of those three military historians was David Bercuson who is the author of that article.



lenaitch said:


> ...
> Wondering if you were bothered by the turbines.  I've heard people complain of headaches, etc. caused by low frequency humming, although I'm not sure that's been empirically established.
> ...



Not at all in that way. That while area around Chatham is covered by them and there was a large battery of them just north of us. The one I mentioned was by far the closest to us and lay to the northwest do basically upwind of the prevailing winds there but it never caused any problems. 

I don't even mind then esthetically either although many of my neighbours did. The only thing that bothered me about them was the ridiculous contracts which the provincial Liberal government at the time entered into with the contractors/operators which locks the energy produced in for an exceedingly high rate many times the average rate for power. That's going to cripple the Ontario economy, which was built on cheap power, in the long run.

🍻


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## Brad Sallows (10 Apr 2021)

Cities are fragile.  Imagine a pandemic with a fatality rate high enough to dissuade truck drivers from doing their jobs.


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## Kirkhill (10 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Because, Somalia' (and it seems that recent events have proven how well this and other similar 'improvements' have worked, I guess):
> 
> UP FROM THE ASHES: THE RE-PROFESSIONALIZATION OF THE CANADIAN FORCES AFTER THE SOMALIA AFFAIR*
> 
> ...


So officers had to go to Seminary first?

As I've said before all western universities started as seminaries, protestant and catholic.  Dogma is in their DNA.

To be an officer one must be able to recite the catechism?


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## FJAG (10 Apr 2021)

I really must proof read my typing better before pressing "post"


Kirkhill said:


> So officers had to go to Seminary first?
> 
> As I've said before all western universities started as seminaries, protestant and catholic.  Dogma is in their DNA.
> 
> To be an officer one must be able to recite the catechism?



I'm with you on that. The character of the dogma has changed quite a bit since then but for much of it, it's still dogma.

I always thought when I read the provision written in 1996 that we a "remarkably ill-educated officer corps, surely one of the worst in the Western world" that this was an indictment of the public education system which over some twelve years of forming young minds seemed to have failed miserably. How much "education" would be enough for the task? Why arbitrarily another four years at a university with absolutely no particular criteria as to what needed to be studied or mastered?

It made no sense to me then and it still doesn't.

On the other hand, that ship has sailed.

🍻


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## daftandbarmy (10 Apr 2021)

FJAG said:


> I really must proof read my typing better before pressing "post"
> 
> 
> I'm with you on that. The character of the dogma has changed quite a bit since then but for much of it, it's still dogma.
> ...




Oh, you have an MBA? I guess I'll have to show you how to do it


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## mariomike (10 Apr 2022)

Saw this in the Ukraine thread regarding Ontario's rural / urban population:



rmc_wannabe said:


> The Urban/Rural divide in Ontario alone has shown how politically and culturally divided we are as a nation.



Thought it better to reply here.

For reference to the discussion.



> In 2011, 18.9% of Canadians lived in a rural area. However, among provinces and territories the proportion ranged from 14% in British Columbia and Ontario to 53% in Prince Edward Island.




Fewer young adults in rural areas​





						Canada goes urban
					






					www150.statcan.gc.ca


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