# Non-Effective Strength (NES): Minimum Attendance



## DnA (11 Apr 2003)

can somone please tell me what NES is? and what is the punishment if their is one for it. I heard my Plt Commander say this, that is somone doesnt show up for 5 weeks at the armoury, that they are NES


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## 311 (11 Apr 2003)

Non-Effective-Service...I believe without telling anybody you automatically started a preceduer for your release.


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## combat_medic (11 Apr 2003)

NES is non-effective-strength. If you don‘t show up for 5 consecutive parade nights without a leave pass, then you‘re declared NES. You‘ll receive a letter stating your status, and saying that you‘re no longer receiving pay/benefits from the military nor earning time in towards your CD or pension. 

Once you return from your NES, you need to get permission from the unit to begin parading again. They can agree and reinstate you, or they can have you discharged. If, after receiving the letter, you still don‘t show up, you‘ll receive a bill from DND for all your kit which you must pay (or just return your kit), and you‘ll be dishonourably discharged from the military, thus preventing you from ever holding a government position. If you don‘t return your kit or pay for it, then it‘ll be assessed on your income taxes and then the feds come after you.

Moral to this story: parade regularly and don‘t disappear for long periods without explanation.


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## Pikache (11 Apr 2003)

Your CO can also authorize leave up to 3 months. Your brigade commander can authorize leave up to 6 months.

So if you think you need time off, go talk to your chain of command.


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## DnA (11 Apr 2003)

thanks for the info


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## SNoseworthy (13 Apr 2003)

So, NES is the Canadian FOrces Equivalent of AWOL?


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## klumanth (14 Apr 2003)

I would say NES is the reserve version of AWOL.  I know some reg force guy‘s that have went AWOL and they got into a whole lot of ****.  One guy spent 14 days in Club Ed after 7 days AWOL.


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## Sharpey (28 Apr 2003)

AWOL is a little different than NES. Earlier in my career I went NES, and I regret that immensly. According to my Unit I was NES twice though I debate that. My bank account was actually docked as well! So my suggestions, if you join the Military, stick with it! Yes my CD will be held back maybe a year, big deal, I‘m in this for the long haul anyway.

Not sure what the current terms are for NES now, I‘ve always been lead to beleive if you show up for your 1/2 day a month you will stay of the NES list. Now tell me, what good is a soldier than shows up for one evening a month? Almost completly useless if you ask me, yeah it looks good on paper for nominal role. But I certainly wouldnt want to share a trench with that type of Soldier, if you can consider them that.

...rant over...


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## maniac779 (16 Apr 2005)

I've always been curious how the whole NES thing works. I know that if you don't parade for some given period of time then that makes you NES, but that about all I know.

What are the consequences, if any? Once you start parading again, is it stricten from the record?


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## winchable (18 Apr 2005)

If you don't parade without making prior arrangements for 3(?) straight nights you get a phone call, eventually you get a letter telling you you've been assessed NES, that's the last step before you get discharged if you don't return to unit after the letter.

Not something you want to have happen.
NES on your record can have lasting effects on your file and if you're discharged you get a nice blackspot and won't be serving in the military or other government jobs (not sure about the government job part, but definetly the military)

Just best to avoid it all together, it's easy enough to call your unit and tell them you're full-time job/school is going to prevent you from parading for a limited time. 
If you're job/school etc. is going to be in the way for a long time you might consider releasing and saving everyone involved the headache or talk to your supervisor and see if there's something else you can do.

Most of this I got from a guy I knew who was assessed NES, he made alternate arrangements with his unit and eventually returned to regular parading.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Apr 2005)

Don't just phone the unit when unable to parade, fill out the proper Exemption from Drill and Training (ED&T) form.

NES is Non Effective Strength, incidentally - it is a condition, not a type of service.  If you have not paraded and not been excused, you count towards the Non-Effective Strength of the unit.


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## childs56 (18 Apr 2005)

5 consecutive days, that is full days of missed training and unexcused. If you cant fill out the proper paper work then you really shouldnt be in the Reserves any ways. takes about an hour to fill out and then you will be ED&T for a period of about 3 months upon approval of the CO. The fact that of you go NES it only counts against your unit in a bad way. Plus if you are not showing up to your work then your taking a spot of some one else who can be working and can show up.   It is the only Part time job that will pay you well, and allow be flexible enough to miss a few days and not fire you. All they ask is you be up front with them. If you are NES then get ahold of your unit and start parading or get out.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Apr 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> takes about an hour to fill out and then you will be ED&T for a period of about 3 months upon approval of the CO.



Well, in our neck of the woods it takes less then five minutes to fill out, and there are two forms - one for under 90 days which the CO can approve, one for 90 days or more, which must be approved by Brigade.


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## vercingetorix (20 Apr 2005)

A friend and I are trying to settle an argument and I was hoping that one of you could answer.

   How part time are the Reserves?  

  Is there a required number of sessions you have to attend a month?? and what happens if you want to go travelling and such??

-Vercingetorix


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## PJ D-Dog (21 Apr 2005)

To answer your question, there is no set amount of time (in years) that you must be part of the reserves.  However, you are required to parade one night a week and one weekend a month.  If your unit has more weekend exercises scheduled, add that to the list.

You can miss a few training nights without being thrown out.  To my knowledge, you cannot miss more than five consecutive training sessions in a row without being declared NES (non effective strength).  For example, if you miss a Thursday night training and you have an exercise that weekend and you don't show up to that either, then you have missed a total of four consecutive training sessions.  You would have to show up at the very next scheduled training session or you would become NES.

If anyone out there knows of any changes in the NES policy, please post it.  My info dates to 2000.  Hope this answers your question.

PJ D-Dog


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## Dogboy (21 Apr 2005)

I was told its that or 75% of the time or better 
if you cant make that then you shuld quetion why your ther.


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## Pte. Bloggins (21 Apr 2005)

AFAIK it's if you miss 3 consecutive parade nights you're NES. (As in 3 consecutive monday nights, or whatever night your unit parades.)

However, keep in mind you're signing up for 1 night a week, and 1 weekend a month. If you can't make that, then reconsider joining.


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## PJ D-Dog (22 Apr 2005)

Through my own curiosity, I found the reference in CFAOs.  Happy reading.

PJ D-Dog

"---RELEASE OF NON-EFFECTIVE MEMBER
5.     A member shall be classed non-effective when absence from training has
exceeded 30 days, during which time no fewer than three parades were
conducted by the unit, unless the member has been exempted from such
training by the commanding officer.
Note -- NCMs may be granted exemption from Class UA" unit training as
follows:
     a.   up to 90 days by unit CO;

     b.   from 90-180 days by District Comd;

     c.   from 180 to 365 days by Area Comd; and

     d.   beyond 365 days by commander of a command. Exemptions beyond 365
          days duration shall only be granted in exceptional and well
          substantiated circumstances.

6.     A member serving on Primary Reserve List (PRL) who does not complete a
cumulative total of 14 days training per year shall be designated
non-effective.

7.     When a member is classified non-effective, the commanding officer
shall communicate immediately with the member:

     a.   to determine when or if the member will again become effective;
          or

     b.   to grant, only if the member so requests in writing, exemption
          from training if circumstances indicate that such exemption
          should be granted.

8.     If the member does not become effective or is not granted exemption
from training, the commanding officer shall:

     a.   initiate recovery action of any public clothing, materiel or
          stores; in accordance with A-LM-181-001/IS-001 and having regard
          to  QR&O 38.03; and

     b.   within 60 days after the member has been classified
          non-effective, initiate release proceedings under item 5(f) of
          the table to  QR&O 15.01."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## needs help (16 Mar 2006)

Last year I en rolled in the Reserve, due to my job I couldn't finish my training. Not only that but I was having second thoughts after awhile about the Army. To put it this way I have never really known my place in the world, and I have always question every choice I have made.   I have since been put on the NSF list.  

   Well now I find myself out of work, and really wanting to return to the unit.  For a few reasons I want to finish what I started.  And I believe that well it's the right thing to do.  

     What should I do, how do I go about this?  I know I will face some kind of punishment but oh well that's life, I'm ready to face that.  There is no excuse for my past actions and I should have stayed in touch with the unit but didn't.  My girlfriend has told me that if I go back well we may just be through.  But I need a job and I refuse to work at a Burger King. Plus I will have a baby boy soon and want to make sure I can support him.

   Could anyone give me some advice?

Thank you


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## beach_bum (16 Mar 2006)

Well, the first thing you need to do is contact your unit.  That's pretty obvious.  From there they will let you know as to what stage of the NES process you are at.  You may have been released NES.  The only way you'll find out is by calling.


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## Gouki (16 Mar 2006)

needs help said:
			
		

> My girlfriend has told me that if I go back well we may just be through



Why the hell would she leave you over that

When I was in the reserves, we would contact those on the NSF before we'd take administrative action. Who knows, maybe if you contact them asap you may be able to salvage something or at least prevent it from getting too worse. It may not be quite as bad as you think.


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## highlandranger (16 Mar 2006)

I was told once by an old soldier that you always have a job if your in the army. You need to go and get off the NSF list, and look into what jobs there are for reservist in your area. You could be a driver for an officer visiting on business, or work in the BHQ as a clerk. The choice is yours, and with the reserves you have more choices for training that is paid for, to help you get ahead in life. Plus you get a pension if your in long enough.


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## 043 (16 Mar 2006)

needs help said:
			
		

> Last year I en rolled in the Reserve, due to my job I couldn't finish my training. Not only that but I was having second thoughts after awhile about the Army. To put it this way I have never really known my place in the world, and I have always question every choice I have made.   I have since been put on the NSF list.
> 
> Well now I find myself out of work, and really wanting to return to the unit.  For a few reasons I want to finish what I started.  And I believe that well it's the right thing to do.
> 
> ...



Leave her, you will find someone better. As for your child, you can still be a provider. Join up again, don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff!


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## intogh (17 Jul 2006)

Hi,

I was a member of the primary reserve for a few years and due to my own irresponsibility was NES for several months. I've now dealt with it and done my paperwork to get out, and I just need to return my kit now. In the future, I see myself wanting to work in government, but I worry I may have ruined my chances of ever working for them, as I've heard rumours NES status could blacklist you from gov't jobs? I really need someone who knows for sure about this to answer whether this is true or not, it would be greatly appreciated. If there's any way to find out for sure if I have been, that would be a help too. 

Thank you very much.


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## MikeM (17 Jul 2006)

If you were discharged dishonourably, which is the case in most NES releases, then you would be classed as a 5F discharge, 5F being the classification for dishonourable release. If you have a dishonourable release, then yes, you will certainly have a hard time getting any government job, as well as anything related to law enforcement. However if you released on your own terms, and were released honourably, then no, you shouldn't be affected in getting a job.

Best bet, find out what type of release you have, and come back seeking further clarification from the administrative guru's that lurk around 

Good luck.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2006)

.......or better yet, when you turn in your kit, go to the Orderley Room and ask them for the details and what can be done. They're in the best position to speak to your paperwork, they generated it.


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## nsmedicman (18 Sep 2007)

What is the process that a PRes member has to endure once they become NES for whatever reason?


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## Donut (18 Sep 2007)

Are you NES or being released NES?  Two different things.

Many units will allow you to resume parading, after a stern talking to and perhaps a recorded warning (or whatever it is now).  The time that you were deemed NES won't be credited towards CD, pension, or promotion time.  BUT, many CO has his own interpretation of how it works.


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## lizbobiz79 (18 Sep 2007)

It depends. Your unit has to send you 2 letters by registered mail letting you know that you are NES and you need to turn in your kit or you will owe money for your kit. If has gotten this far, CONTACT YOUR UNIT IMMEDIATELY. You have a minimum of 14 days to respond in some way, as to whether or not you want to be in the reserves.

If you want to still be with your unit, you'll have explain why you were NES (to your supervisor).There may be some sort of consequence, as each unit may have their own way of dealing with NES people.

If you want to release, you turn in your kit, do your clearances and off you go.....

If you don't respond to those 2 registered letters within the time given (it will be stated right in the letter), the process will be started for a 5F release (I can't remember off hand what exactly it stands for, but I think it's non-adventagously employable. If you ever want to be considered for a government job and you have that on your file, you will not be considered). Your kit costs will also be outstanding and eventually go to a collections agency. Also, if you moved and the registered letters go to your old address and are returned to your home unit, they will consider that as you have not responded and will start the release process after the time given on the letter.

Hope this helps, I can't stress enough to contact your unit asap!!!!


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## Sig_Des (18 Sep 2007)

5f release. From the QR&O's:



> Unsuitable for Further Service.
> 
> Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces.


f

liz has it pretty much bang on. 2 registered letters, and 5f is BAD. Not only for government, but it might hit you for a security clearance or to get bonded. You let it get to that point, go in and just release.


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## Donut (18 Sep 2007)

Now, that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work, however several areas I've worked have had huge unresolved backlogs of NES pers.  It's one of the Adm worlds priorities to clean it up, but that's not the way it has actually worked in many places.  Releasing someone 5(F) is not as easy as the clerks would like it to be...There are impediments to making it as timely as the pam says it should be, too.

FWIW, I've never seen a unit that has it's NES as under control as the Superintendant Clerk would like it be.


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## nsmedicman (18 Sep 2007)

It's not near to the point of becoming NES.....I am just having a difficult time making it to training on a regular basis, due to work commitments....and it's not looking like it may improve any time soon.....if it does get to the point of being a problem.....I may have to do the right thing and release.....thanks for the info.... ;D


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## Roy Harding (18 Sep 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Now, that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work, however several areas I've worked have had huge unresolved backlogs of NES pers.  It's one of the Adm worlds priorities to clean it up, but that's not the way it has actually worked in many places.  Releasing someone 5(F) is not as easy as the clerks would like it to be...There are impediments to making it as timely as the pam says it should be, too.
> 
> FWIW, I've never seen a unit that has it's NES as under control as the Superintendant Clerk would like it be.



I was an RFA(A) Clk (same thing as RSS - only with Communication Command) in Edmonton in 1989.  When I got there, there was a HUGE backlog of NES.  I set up a simple system, on a database (dBase II, I think), which automatically checked last parade dates, and printed the required letters when they were due.  My clerks just put them in an envelope and mailed them.  Within three or four months, our NES list went down to "recents".  No more backlog.  It wasn't that hard - of course, I had a MUCH shorter chain of command than my RSS fellows (Sqn (me) - Gp - Comd).  It does, however, take a concerted effort to keep on top of it.

All that being said - for the original poster - resolve this NOW, one way or another.  Either start parading (and take whatever lumps may be coming your way), or release.  To be released 5(f) is not a good thing.


Roy


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## navymich (18 Sep 2007)

NSmedicman said:
			
		

> It's not near to the point of becoming NES.....I am just having a difficult time making it to training on a regular basis, due to work commitments....and it's not looking like it may improve any time soon.....if it does get to the point of being a problem.....I may have to do the right thing and release.....thanks for the info.... ;D



Talk to your supervisor about your concerns, before it bites you in the arse.  They may have an alternative for you, or may allow you to work less then what is required but are willing to accomodate you because you have brought it forward. If you suspect that things with your civy job may improve in the future, you can also look at a possible leave of absence.  And remember, you can also request to be put on the supp list instead of releasing completely as it still gives you that foot in the door.  Good luck.


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## Shamrock (18 Sep 2007)

NSmedicman said:
			
		

> It's not near to the point of becoming NES.....I am just having a difficult time making it to training on a regular basis, due to work commitments....and it's not looking like it may improve any time soon.....if it does get to the point of being a problem.....I may have to do the right thing and release.....thanks for the info.... ;D



Forget not ED&T.


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## steveyb4342 (19 Oct 2008)

Sorry I 'm obviously  not using the search function properly, thanks for the info George                

Thanks Steve


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## George Wallace (19 Oct 2008)

steveyb4342 said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: I did try a search before posting as this seems like something I should have been able to find but I came up dry, sorry if I missed it.
> 
> Steve



Well Steve  

I don't know how much I can believe you.  Look at all the pages I have found and added your post to.  

You should also look at the Topic on Excused Drill and Training (ED&T).


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## lone bugler (12 Feb 2009)

can someone find the definition of NES on an official docoument? I need help because I'm currently NES when I don't believe I should have been put there

the period in dispute is when I last paraded on December the 4th 2008 and next paraded January 22nd 2009 (I parade on Thursdays)

I know that's 6 weeks they are counting me as not parading. but for anyone who's noticed by now this period of absence includes Dec. 25 and Jan.1 (yep X-mas and new years were both Thursdays), I was informed my reserve unit was on stand down during this time, so should it count towards being absent?

I don't know if it makes a difference but the absence was due to university exams and every time I don't show up for training I've notified my section commander in advance (not afterwards...)

any advice on this would be great


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## dapaterson (12 Feb 2009)

Look for CMP Instruction 20/04 for the exact definition of NES.



> *NES for Mbrs of the Res F.* Except for a mbr of the PRL, a Res F mbr shall be declared non-effective (NES) when their unauthorized absence from duty has exceeded 30 days, during which time no fewer than three duty periods were conducted by the unit. A period during which a mbr has been declared NES does not count toward qualifying svc for promotion, incentive pay, Canadian Forces’ Decoration or clasp, or the RFRG. NES shall not be approved retroactively;


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## bran (14 May 2009)

After talking to the unit clerk and due to some confusion I may be declared NES. Although I have put in for a ED&T form as of today so hopefully I'm not already NES. Just a question, would having an NES on your record be a hindrance for applying to CSOR or JTF2 even though it should have easily been avoided.


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 May 2009)

If you have a change in your status then its your responsibility to let your Orderly Room/CoC know.


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## Ferius (19 Jan 2010)

I think the subject describes my question pretty good.


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## PMedMoe (19 Jan 2010)

Ferius said:
			
		

> I think the subject describes my question pretty good.


Really?  Are you asking if being on Non-Effective Strength will affect a civilian teaching career?


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Jan 2010)

If you are declared NES, your CO has 60 days to initiate a 5(f) release.... the ramifications of this is that it will affect you attempting to get a Federal Government Job and your acquisition of Crown Land.

Release 5(f) Unsuitable for Further Service.
Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces.


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## Ferius (19 Jan 2010)

So it would not effect becoming a teacher? Because I thought that teachers worked for a section of the government.


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## Spanky (19 Jan 2010)

NOPE!  It would not affect anything regarding being hired as a teacher, unless you told them, and there would not be reason to.


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## ballz (19 Jan 2010)

Ferius said:
			
		

> Because I thought that teachers worked for a section of the government.



They do, they work for a section (department) of the *provincial* government.

So no, it will not affect being hired as a teacher.


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## Monsoon (19 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> So no, it will not affect being hired as a teacher.


That being said: how's about you do yourself and everyone else a favour and just fill out the paperwork to release properly? It's not f**king rocket science.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jan 2010)

Go in to your armories parade for night to be taken off of NES and then ask to be placed on ED&T. That may give you enough time to sort your shit out.  If not go in to your work and ask to be released.

If you STAY on NES then like everyone is saying you will get kicked out of the military.
That looks horrible for ANY job you apply for.  I wouldn't hire you.   You may not make it to be a teacher either.
You're also owe thousands of dollars to the government for you're equipment.
Good luck getting a student loan for teachers college when you owe the government 4 grand.


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## CallOfDuty (19 Jan 2010)

...you don't owe them anything....put your pride aside, go in and release.  Time to man-up. 
 :2c:


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## Haggis (19 Jan 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Go in to your armories parade for night to be taken off of NES and then ask to be placed on ED&T. That may give you enough time to sort your crap out.  If not go in to your work and ask to be released.
> 
> If you STAY on NES then like everyone is saying you will get kicked out of the military.
> That looks horrible for ANY job you apply for.  I wouldn't hire you.   You may not make it to be a teacher either.
> ...


What he said!





			
				CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> Time to man-up.


What he said!

Own up to your responsibilities as a soldier.  It will make you a better teacher.


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## readytogo (6 Oct 2010)

Good Morning everyone,

          As I am having a difficult time getting a hold of My COC can anyone tell me....while im on course (weekend BMQ) am I still required to attend to the CO determined 70% of my parade nights to avoid NES status???


RTG


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## toughenough (6 Oct 2010)

This depends on your unit. I'd err on the side of caution until you confirm it with your CoC though.


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## George Wallace (6 Oct 2010)

If you are on Course, you are parading and getting paid by your Unit.  Don't worry.  You will not be considered NES.  In fact many units will tell their people who are on weekend BMQ NOT to come in on Parade nights as they don't have any training for them to do.

After all the above, make sure you do confirm with your Chain of Command what they expect of you.


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## readytogo (6 Oct 2010)

Thank you tough enough and Mr. Wallace, it seems email is the best course of contact for my COC so hopefully they get back to me before tonight


RTG


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## RedcapCrusader (24 May 2015)

Hate to bump an old thread, but I figured it was for good cause.

Anyone have a live link for the NES Policy? Every link for CMP Instruction 20/04 is dead and I am having a tough time finding much in the DAODs and QR&Os (my googlefu is not great).

Much appreciated.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 May 2015)

I wouldn't be surprised if it was in a CFAO.


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## dapaterson (24 May 2015)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Hate to bump an old thread, but I figured it was for good cause.
> 
> Anyone have a live link for the NES Policy? Every link for CMP Instruction 20/04 is dead and I am having a tough time finding much in the DAODs and QR&Os (my googlefu is not great).
> 
> Much appreciated.



Not from an official DND site, so I can't swear it's up to date: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/55794704/ADM-HR-MIL-INSTRUCTION-2004-ADM-HR-MIL-INSTRUCTION-20-04

Otherwise, on the DWAN, search for Mil Pers Instruction 20/04.


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## citydweller (12 Oct 2015)

I was in the reserves in 1993 for three years.  I got a job in another city 2 hours away and wanted to transfer to a unit in the new city.  I was told I had to go visit that unit and ask to transfer.  I paraded with that unit 1 night and had an interview with the RSM in his office.  He said the transfer would be no problem.  I forget how much time went by but my original unit called me to say I was NES.  I went back to where my original unit is, which was difficult because I had no car and nowhere to stay there.  They told me they checked with the other unit and was told they had no record of me being there and they asked if I got the registered mail and I had not.  I asked if somebody had signed indicating they received the letter and they had no answer.  I was under the impression that a signature was required with registered mail.  I did not want to leave the military but figured I had no choice and was quite disgusted by the administrative bungling.  How can they defend our country if they can't do something this simple?  I got an honourable discharge.  I have been told that the military has been overhauled since then and that these kind of things were more common back in those days.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Oct 2015)

citydweller said:
			
		

> I was in the reserves in 1993 for three years.  I got a job in another city 2 hours away and wanted to transfer to a unit in the new city.  I was told I had to go visit that unit and ask to transfer.  I paraded with that unit 1 night and had an interview with the RSM in his office.  He said the transfer would be no problem.  I forget how much time went by but my original unit called me to say I was NES.  I went back to where my original unit is, which was difficult because I had no car and nowhere to stay there.  They told me they checked with the other unit and was told they had no record of me being there and they asked if I got the registered mail and I had not.  I asked if somebody had signed indicating they received the letter and they had no answer.  I was under the impression that a signature was required with registered mail.  I did not want to leave the military but figured I had no choice and was quite disgusted by the administrative bungling.  How can they defend our country if they can't do something this simple?  I got an honourable discharge.  I have been told that the military has been overhauled since then and that these kind of things were more common back in those days.



Other than the registered mail and if we're capable of defending the country questions, is there something you were asking?

Or were you just venting?


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## citydweller (12 Oct 2015)

I was not asking anything.  I was just describing my personal experience.  I am quite sure that if required, I could have proven I had paraded with the other unit as I signed-in there and sat in the mess and people saw me and talked with me.  I was wearing a completely different cap badge, etc.  I could also prove that I did not receive the registered mail:

"Registered Mail is a service offered to customers who require proof of mailing and/or proof of delivery. The service secures the signature of the addressee or the addressee’s representative and provides the sender with a mailing receipt, a copy of the signature and the date upon delivery of the item."

https://www.canadapost.ca/tools/pg/manual/PGregister-e.asp

I suppose, out of curiosity, I could ask what I should have done differently or what is the normal procedure.  I was just following the instructions given to me.  As it was it took considerably more time to get out of the military and more trouble because the unit had to drive me to CFB Borden to turn in all my kit.  I am considering joining the reserves again at this time and I wonder if they are any more organized today than they were back then.  Thanks.


----------



## CountDC (13 Oct 2015)

NES - my fav   >  Fire them all, sue them all and be damn if I am sending an honourable release certificate.

First Registered Mail - we don't need to prove you recieved it, only that it was sent.  large number of times the member has moved without providing a new address so the notice will be returned unclaimed.  Even if it is signed for it doesn't have to be you, just someone at the address you provided. NES release continues.

Transfer Request - had to visit new unit? Wow.  Your unit sure liked to create extra work for themselves as they ended up dealing with a long distance release rather than setting up the transfer prior.  What should have happened was you submit the req through your chain.  Once the CO approves then the clerks send the req out through the command chain.  The gaining unit will do what they want to decide if they want you or not.  Some will talk to the Adjt of your unit, some will want to talk to you and some will even reply with a change to attach posting for obervation prior to a full posting.

What you should have done differently was submit your request well in advance and follow up on it.  By what you indicate you showed up at the new unit once, talked to the RSM and didn't go back or contact your unit thus the NES action.  I am betting more than 30 days had passed before they called you.

Seems to me the unit also went above and beyond to assist you.  They didn't have to drive you to Borden to return your kit, that is your responsibilty.

The system has changed and improved greatly.  We no longer have to go through all the stupid hoops that we had to back then to get rid of people that go NES.  Shorter and easier process now to the good bye door if your CO will follow regulations.

Did I mention I love NES?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Oct 2015)

In the past, did they not recover the monies in kit from NES folks who'd dropped off the face of the earth by going thru CRA and adding it onto your taxes somehow, or is that and old urban legend?


----------



## BinRat55 (15 Oct 2015)

citydweller said:
			
		

> I did not want to leave the military but figured I had no choice ...



Yet - 



			
				citydweller said:
			
		

> I am quite sure that if required, I could have proven I had paraded with the other unit



So my question (as was Counts) was did you or did you not want to remain in the Reserves? Or just want a story to complain about how you were "wronged"? Another easy thing would have been to request the RSM, whom you had an intimate conversation with, contact you previous unit and say "By George, yes. He DID show up here." Unless there is a reason he _couldn't _ vouch for you...


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2015)

citydweller said:
			
		

> How can they defend our country if they can't do something this simple?


The same way we defend the country with reservists who join the military to "help defend Canada" but never show up for work.

On occasion I've found that the reserve unit shits the bed and places members on NES and releases them without doing due diligence to get the member back in/follow the proper steps.

The majority of the time I've found it's because members were lazy, didn't want to honour their commitment and thought they could hide at home and ignore the army until they go away.

Dealing with irate parents making excuses for their children hiding in the basement was a favorite of mine.


----------



## Lumber (15 Oct 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Dealing with irate parents making excuses for their children hiding in the basement was a favorite of mine.





That _*would*_ be fun!  >


----------



## DAA (15 Oct 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> In the past, did they not recover the monies in kit from NES folks who'd dropped off the face of the earth by going thru CRA and adding it onto your taxes somehow, or is that and old urban legend?



I think that one is an Urban Legend.   From what I understand, the Unit had to attempt recovery of the kit (ie; phone, mailed out letters, etc)   If the kit wasn't returned, it was costed out and the file sent into maybe the JAG realm in Ottawa.   At the end of the day, the debt to the Crown was sold to a Collection Agency.    hahaha

The really bad thing and kick to the family jewels, is that these people were usually released "5.f.".    Good luck getting back into any component of the CF as a result, because it ain't happening.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Oct 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> I think that one is an Urban Legend.   From what I understand, the Unit had to attempt recovery of the kit (ie; phone, mailed out letters, etc)   If the kit wasn't returned, it was costed out and the file sent into maybe the JAG realm in Ottawa.   At the end of the day, the debt to the Crown was sold to a Collection Agency.    hahaha
> 
> The really bad thing and kick to the family jewels, is that these people were usually released "5.f.".    Good luck getting back into any component of the CF as a result, because it ain't happening.



Actually, any government job, not just the CAF.


----------



## DAA (15 Oct 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Actually, any government job, not just the CAF.



Really?   Always wondered whether or not there would be some sort of "collateral" damage incurred.


----------



## CountDC (21 Oct 2015)

The kit listing goes off to the JAG who will take whatever action to recover the funds.

Now mbrs can get back in but it is even more fun than the original enrolment.  I hear at least 2 years of jumping through hoops at the CFRC.   >   Sooo... isnt that what everyone is going through?

My issue with NES - you joined, agreed to parade and return your kit when leaving.  Instead walk off with thousands of dollars in kit and still get honourably released??  If a Cpl sitting in a jail can call to arrange for his kit return why can't the guy roaming free get it done?  Who really is the honourable one?


----------



## Harris (21 Oct 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> The really bad thing and kick to the family jewels, is that these people were usually released "5.f.".    Good luck getting back into any component of the CF as a result, because it ain't happening.



Not quite true.  I am on a BOI right now for a Cpl who was released 5f late 1990s from Cornwallis.  Was re-enrolled into the regular force 7 years ago.  Only required a waiver from the CDS's office.  No other hoops to jump through other than the "normal" stuff.


----------



## dapaterson (22 Oct 2015)

A waiver from the CDS constitutes a hoop.


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## mariomike (22 Oct 2015)

Harris said:
			
		

> I am on a BOI right now for a Cpl who was released 5f late 1990s from Cornwallis.  Was re-enrolled into the regular force 7 years ago.  Only required a waiver from the CDS's office.  No other hoops to jump through other than the "normal" stuff.



From what I understood of "5F Release questions/answers (merged)", overcoming a 5F sounds like a very high hoop.


----------



## Aaron97 (20 Feb 2016)

Can someone confirm with me? I have seen many postings on this thread saying NES is missing 3 consecutive training days and some saying 5 training days? can anyone confirm? thanks


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## Dab22 (20 Feb 2016)

I swore in last week, but i was unsure of when I would be swearing in so I have a 2 week vacation booked 3 weeks from now. In which I'll be missing 3 parade nights. Now I'm wondering should I put in an EDandT request to avoid going NES or just inform them that I will be gone for 3 parade nights.


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## RedcapCrusader (20 Feb 2016)

Dab22 said:
			
		

> I swore in last week, but i was unsure of when I would be swearing in so I have a 2 week vacation booked 3 weeks from now. In which I'll be missing 3 parade nights. Now I'm wondering should I put in an EDandT request to avoid going NES or just inform them that I will be gone for 3 parade nights.



Just inform your Chain of Command that you will be absent, explain why. They will note it and be filed as an excused absence. No need for ED&T unless you're going to be absent for a long period of time etc.





			
				Aaron97 said:
			
		

> Can someone confirm with me? I have seen many postings on this thread saying NES is missing 3 consecutive training days and some saying 5 training days? can anyone confirm? thanks



The minimum service obligation is one period of duty every 30 days. Essentially, 1 parade night a month. If you are not meeting that, they will attempt to contact you to make sure you're in good health and safe; if there are extenuating circumstances they will help you and get you an LOA/ED&T. However if it's just because you couldn't be bothered and only show up once every couple of months you will be processed for NES and subsequently an administrative release.


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## CountDC (20 Feb 2016)

That is a unit specific answer and may not apply.  Here if you are going to miss a 30 day period we expect you to put in for ED&T or the CO will get an NES form to sign as per CF Regulations.  Too often people inform their C of C such as the MCpl or Sgt who simply are not the ones that have authority in the matter and it stops there rather than getting actioned properly.  The CO approves or recommends ED&T depending on length and approves NES.  Declaring mbrs NES is a benefit to the unit as you now have an ongoing record of NES periods to support either a directed ED&T period or an admin release for the member that plays the game of showing up once in a blue moon to keep from getting NES Released.

People often forget about the possible implications, I know this place did until we actioned the PIL.  Nothing like having a guy that hasn't paraded in 2 years and should have been released NES getting money for that period to wake people up.  Then there is the good old "Sir, here is the CD for Cpl Bloggins who hasn't paraded in X years and shouldn't get this but because you didn't want to release him NES now is entitled to it".    One of my favs though is when they want to transfer a Sgt/WO or Officer in and there are no positions available because they wouldn't action the NES.  Basically anything based on time served this person is getting credit for even though they are not parading.

Mind you I am bias - I hate people going NES, got really tired of people disappearing with thousands of dollars in kit with no repercussions, creating a crap load of work for me and then at the end of it I had to do a certificate stating they were Honourably Released.  BS - where is the honour in that. Don't want to be in then do the honourable thing, hand in your kit and request release.


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## Aaron97 (3 May 2016)

Hello,

I am currently in the Reserve Force and had recently found out I will be doing BMQ and BMQ-L in the summer. With that said, I will need to have my 3 out of my 4 Thursday parade nights off to attend my driving class as I am hoping to get my license before BMQ as by time I get back from my BMQ courses, my L license would be expiring in a few days. As of now, I do come into work with my reserve unit for GD's twice a week. 

I am wondering if the above example would still be seen as "acceptable" or would I be viewed as "one of those guys" who only show up to parade nights once a month as I will be missing 3 out of the 4 parade nights, but I do work 2 other days (full days) at my reserve unit every week.

I have even heard of another NCO saying he does it too make up for his parade nights as he has conflicts with his civilian work. However, he's an NCO so im wondering if there are different expectations for a junior member?

thanks


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## ModlrMike (3 May 2016)

I recommend you submit a memo outlining the reasons for your not attending. That being said, the requirement is one training night in a 30 day period, where the unit normally paraded.

My unit doesn't conduct training nights in the summer, so it's not uncommon for people to miss 60 days with no repercussions.


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## Lumber (12 Dec 2017)

What's the actual period of NES? I can't find it in the MHRRP.

The staffing form says:



> "Last Attendance. The member's last attendance day was on: ______"
> "Non-Effective Status. Since the member's last attendance there have been three unit duty periods and at least 30 days elapsed as of: ________"
> 
> "Declaration: I declare the member to be non-effective and authorize NES status as of the following date: __"
> ...



It's the bit in yellow that really gets me. Why can't he be considered NES as of the day that "30 days" elapsed?

Say the member last paraded on October 1st. We're super busy and don't catch it until November 20th. The member, in my view, was NES as of the 30th of October, but the CO doesn't sign the paperwork until November 20th, so he's not considered "NES" until November 20th. Let's say the member is contacted and resumes parading on the 30th of November.

Period of NES don't count toward time in rank, seniority, pension, etc. In my example above, what period of time would the member have removed from his service? Would it be from October 1st to November 30th? Or just from November 20th to November 30th?

Differemt scenario:
Let's say, unbeknownst to me, the member actually came in to submit ED&T paperwork on the 15th of November. He signed a pay sheet, but it hasn't yet been processed, so we didn't notice it.

The member was, by definition, NES as of the 30th of October, but the form won't be signed until the 20th of November, and actually, the member has already "resumed" parading as of the 15th of November. Does he not get any ED&T time? This might not be a a great example, because we're onyl talking about 1 month here.

What about some cases where I've heard of a member being away from the unti for 6 months or more without anyone noticing. Does he only get time removed from the date the CO officially labelled him "NES"? What if he also came in a few days before that to submit release paperwork; would he still get all that time away from the unit toward his pension?

I'd like to believe that the "declaring of NES" is merely a title, and the actual time-frame for NES begins with the date listed as "Last Attendance" above, but I can't find a reference to clearly say that.


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## dapaterson (12 Dec 2017)

My understanding (which, together with $2, will get you a double double at Timmies) is that the NES period begins the date of the CO's signature.  Prone to abuse?  Yep.

Per 20.04:

3.12 Non-Effective Strength (NES)
1.	Except for a member of the PRL, a Res F member shall be declared NES when their unauthorized absence from duty has exceeded 30 days, during which time no fewer than three duty periods were conducted by the unit. A period during which a member has been declared NES does not count toward qualifying service for promotion, incentive pay, Canadian Forces' Decoration or clasp, or the RFRG. NES shall not be approved retroactively. 


ED&T is supposed to be approved in advance; per 20.04:

3.11 Exempt Duty and Training (ED&T)
1.	All requests for ED&T shall be in writing through the chain of command prior to the ED&T start date. Except in exceptional circumstances, such as emergencies that cause the member to be absent for more than 30 days, requests shall not be approved/granted retroactively;


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## TheSnake (22 Oct 2018)

For Class A, that it's a minimum of one parade night a month(once per 30 days)  correct?


----------



## RedcapCrusader (22 Oct 2018)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> For Class A, that it's a minimum of one parade night a month(once per 30 days)  correct?



Most units have policy in place that requires members to attend at least one period of duty every 30 days in order to remain off of Non-Effective Strength, which could result in administrative action up to and including being released.

If it's work/school related, some units are okay with stretching that 30 day period a little bit more, but if you're expecting to have frequent long stretches of absence, you should look into ED&T.

Either way, you should sitting down with your Chain of Command to find out what they are flexible with offering, and what the NES policy is for that unit.


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## TheSnake (22 Oct 2018)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> Most units have policy in place that requires members to attend at least one period of duty every 30 days in order to remain off of Non-Effective Strength, which could result in administrative action up to and including being released.



So what I gather from this if you show up at least once per 30 days/a month you are fine, note I always communicate if I am coming in or not.


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## TheSnake (22 Oct 2018)

If I am not mistaking so long as you communicate(email/phone etc) with you're CoC that you are not coming in would they still NES you?

From what I understand in order to get an NES/5f is to be a no show, and no communicating  correct?


----------



## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2018)

You can communicate all you want, but if you dont show up to meet your units minimum requirements they can NES you even with you giving lots of notice. If you cannot parade for a long period of time, ask for ED&T or release. With the expediated recruitment of reservists now, there's no reason to hold a position for someone who can only work one Thursday night every 2 months.


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## RedcapCrusader (22 Oct 2018)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> So what I gather from this if you show up at least once per 30 days/a month you are fine, note I always communicate if I am coming in or not.



Yes


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## brihard (22 Oct 2018)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> So what I gather from this if you show up at least once per 30 days/a month you are fine, note I always communicate if I am coming in or not.



Not necessarily. Some units enforce attendance much more strictly than that. Mine expect 75% training night attendance and all exercises, with two weeks written notice requesting permission to be absent. They’re reasonable and flexible, however they have no time for people who show up too infrequently to be useful. There is an administrative process in place to correct deficiencies in attendance.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Oct 2018)

It may be covered in MMs link but it's been pointed out here that reservists can be ordered by their chain of command to work up to 12 days (training nights? a month and can be charged if they don't. The only catch is the charge would be in a civilian court and no one would waste their time on that. 



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Mine expect 75% training night attendance and all exercises, with two weeks written notice requesting permission to be absent.



Thats awesome but a problem with smaller units may be they're so hard up for numbers that they can't afford to lose anyone. Up to and including rewarding shitty attendance and attitude with good courses and taskings. Especially with the brigades and all their must fill tasks, and everything seems to be must fill


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## RedcapCrusader (23 Oct 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It may be covered in MMs link but it's been pointed out here that reservists can be ordered by their chain of command to work up to 12 days (training nights? a month and can be charged if they don't. The only catch is the charge would be in a civilian court and no one would waste their time on that.



It would have to be a significant case for a CO to order someone to 12 days of work/training, and would either be under the guise of OP LENTUS or some sort of activation under the Emergency Measures Act.

I highly doubt a CO would do that, and if they did they would probably seek Administrative action instead. No Court Clerk or Crown Prosecutor would ever accept a charge like that unless it was an AWA of significance (Regular Force, deployed ops, or national emergency).

Pretty easy, they don't show up, admin release with negative release code.


----------



## Remius (23 Oct 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Thats awesome but a problem with smaller units may be they're so hard up for numbers that they can't afford to lose anyone. Up to and including rewarding shitty attendance and attitude with good courses and taskings. Especially with the brigades and all their must fill tasks, and everything seems to be must fill



If the guy isn't showing up what difference does that make.  You can't fill tasks with people that won't show. They are a more of a burden than an asset.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Oct 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> If the guy isn't showing up what difference does that make.  You can't fill tasks with people that won't show. They are a more of a burden than an asset.



Some people only show for the taskings and units would rather send them, undeserved as it is, because they're afraid to send vac no-fill responses.

I would imagine having an extra 30 people on paper even though they may shown up once a month looks better than not having numbers on paper.


----------



## ModlrMike (23 Oct 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I would imagine having an extra 30 people on paper even though they may shown up once a month looks better than not having numbers on paper.



Only marginally. The yearly allocation for SWE is driven by the prior year's parade state. Folks who don't parade drag down the average and impact the bottom line. Which in turn reduces the amount of money available to pay troops in the next year.


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## runormal (23 Oct 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Only marginally. The yearly allocation for SWE is driven by the prior year's parade state. Folks who don't parade drag down the average and impact the bottom line. Which in turn reduces the amount of money available to pay troops in the next year.



Slight tangent, but does the units funding change if people on CLS B show up for "ClS A work" (i.e parades, excercise). Etc.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Oct 2018)

runormal said:
			
		

> Slight tangent, but does the units funding change if people on CLS B show up for "ClS A work" (i.e parades, excercise). Etc.



Short answer is "it depends".  Every div and every brigade does their funding a little different.


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## FJAG (23 Oct 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It may be covered in MMs link but it's been pointed out here that reservists can be ordered by their chain of command to work up to 12 days (training nights? a month and can be charged if they don't. The only catch is the charge would be in a civilian court and no one would waste their time on that.
> . . .



Just a small point but QR&O 9.04(2) provides the following:



> (2) Subject to any limitations prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff, a member of the Primary Reserve may be ordered to train each year on Class "B" Reserve Service prescribed under subparagraph (1)(b) of article 9.07 (Class "B" Reserve Service) for a period not exceeding 15 days and on Class "A" Reserve Service (see article 9.06 - Class "A" Reserve Service), for a period not exceeding 60 days.



 :cheers:


----------



## ModlrMike (24 Oct 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Short answer is "it depends".  Every div and every brigade does their funding a little different.



Except you can't pay someone both Class A and Class B at the same time. Class B members typically don't count towards the parade state because they're usually paid from a different fin code.

Of course my experience is only from the NAVRES perspective, I don't know what the ARAF and Militia are doing.


----------



## ontheedge (24 Oct 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Just a small point but QR&O 9.04(2) provides the following:
> 
> :cheers:



Um, say what Willis??  You telling me a CO can order a meek Reservist to go on a two week training exercise to Gagetown after the holidays or at some other random time?


----------



## mariomike (24 Oct 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> You telling me a CO can order a meek Reservist to go on a two week training exercise to Gagetown after the holidays or at some other random time?



For reference to the discussion,

Reserve Service
Obligation to Serve
9.04 - TRAINING AND DUTY
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-09.page#cha-009-04
Date modified: 2017-11-24


----------



## FJAG (24 Oct 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Um, say what Willis??  You telling me a CO can order a meek Reservist to go on a two week training exercise to Gagetown after the holidays or at some other random time?



Absolutely.

And, over and above any administrative action, Part VII of the National Defence Act lists those offences for which a service member may be tried by a civilian court. With respect to reservists and training, s 294 provides:



> Failure to attend parade
> 
> 294 (1) Every officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force who without lawful excuse neglects or refuses to attend any parade or training at the place and hour appointed therefor is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction for each offence, if an officer, to a fine not exceeding fifty dollars and, if a non-commissioned member, to a fine not exceeding twenty-five dollars.
> 
> ...



https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-60.html#docCont

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike (24 Oct 2018)

Discussion of, "Failure to attend parade"
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&ei=SZPQW-y2Mq2p_QaI3LbIBQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22Failure+to+attend+parade%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22Failure+to+attend+parade%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..3631...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.XJAn_kcqEMM



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> Off topic, but interesting from my point of view given the popular belief that a reservist can't be charged for failing to attend a parade night, they can.  Section 294(1) creates the offence of "Failure to attend Parade".  Although anytime I have brought this offence forward to a JAG officer for consideration they have gone white as a ghost and started to sweat profusely, I'm not sure why any reservist would take the chance of being charged with this as the fine is a staggering $50 for each offence for an officer and $25 for each offence for a non-commissioned member.   [:'(


----------



## runormal (24 Oct 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Absolutely.
> 
> And, over and above any administrative action, Part VII of the National Defence Act lists those offences for which a service member may be tried by a civilian court. With respect to reservists and training, s 294 provides:
> 
> ...



What exactly is the definition of "lawful excuse". It seems quite vague, so I'm assuming many things could you get out of it i.e (previously paid travel expenses, family issues, day job issues).

Roughly how long would it even take with all of the prep work and the trial itself? Since the member is class A, I'd assume that they'd be getting paid the whole time so it would many days missed for a CPL to even loose money.. Heck they might even come out ahead..


----------



## ontheedge (24 Oct 2018)

A reservist being required to train at the order of the CO-This  is something that is not properly communicated on most of the government websites. They all say one night a week, one weekend a month. It doesn’t say anywhere “and any other two-week period for training that the commanding officer may require“, except deep buried in the regs. 

Houston we have a problem. I’ll chat with the CO if I can get an offer...


----------



## Eaglelord17 (24 Oct 2018)

Those quoted regulations do not say a CO can order you to parade, it says the CDS can, two very different things. Unless there is further direction not quoted here where the CDS has delegated those powers lower, then the CO cannot order you to parade for two weeks.


----------



## garb811 (24 Oct 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Houston we have a problem. I’ll chat with the CO if I can get an offer...


You'll do what now...?   :facepalm: :rofl:


----------



## BeyondTheNow (24 Oct 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> You'll do what now...?   :facepalm: :rofl:



You beat me to it...

Ontheedge: I’m not quite sure what your interpretations are of how you feel issues/concerns are to be approached, but judging by that line of your post it sounds as though you think sauntering up to your CO (“...if you get an offer...”) and raising your concerns about what you think his/her expectations of you are going to be is how it’s done. It’s not. Just so you’re aware...


----------



## FJAG (24 Oct 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Those quoted regulations do not say a CO can order you to parade, it says the CDS can, two very different things. Unless there is further direction not quoted here where the CDS has delegated those powers lower, then the CO cannot order you to parade for two weeks.



Sorry but you are wrong. The regulation provides that "subject to any limitations prescribed by the [CDS] . . .". The order can be given by any superior amongst whom a CO would be the most likely. The CDS is simply made the authority for prescribing any limitations to the QR&O which, incidentally, is a regulation made by the Governor in Council. 



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> What exactly is the definition of "lawful excuse". It seems quite vague, so I'm assuming many things could you get out of it i.e (previously paid travel expenses, family issues, day job issues).
> 
> Roughly how long would it even take with all of the prep work and the trial itself? Since the member is class A, I'd assume that they'd be getting paid the whole time so it would many days missed for a CPL to even loose money.. Heck they might even come out ahead..



A "lawful excuse" is one that provides a legal justification for not attending. It would not be something that is merely a personal inconvenience such as the ones that you mention.

The length of time would vary from province to province depending on how busy the court schedules are but I would say several months. 

Your assumption about being paid is wrong. Since this is a civilian charge in front of a civilian court, you would not be on duty to attend the trial or any of the court proceedings nor would you get a lawyer from Defence Counsel Services as this is not a "service offence" which is defined as:



> service offence means an offence under this Act, the Criminal Code or any other Act of Parliament, committed by a person while subject to the Code of Service Discipline



Technically (and legally). S 294 is specifically provided as an offence triable by a civilian court because at the moment that you fail to attend training you are not subject to the Code of Service Discipline by virtue of S 60(1)(c) of the NDA.

The saving grace for people is that the military makes virtually no use of this provision because it's basically a pain in the butt to do. As a JAG officer I was frequently consulted about this problem and while I always encouraged COs to make use of the provision (if nothing else as a learning exercise and _pour encourager les autres_), no one ever took me up on it.

 :cheers:


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## dapaterson (24 Oct 2018)

Of course, 9.05 may apply as well - requiring consent to serve with the Regular Force or with another sub-component...


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## ontheedge (25 Oct 2018)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> You beat me to it...
> 
> Ontheedge: I’m not quite sure what your interpretations are of how you feel issues/concerns are to be approached, but judging by that line of your post it sounds as though you think sauntering up to your CO (“...if you get an offer...”) and raising your concerns about what you think his/her expectations of you are going to be is how it’s done. It’s not. Just so you’re aware...



Ya I’m a newbie. Not sure what I missed. I thought if I’m called from the unit CO with an offer, I’ll ask to see what the offer is and what the expectations are. 

You seem to be saying that’s not how it’s done?  Take it or leave it?  Any questions about military requirements go look at the website?


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## garb811 (25 Oct 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Ya I’m a newbie. Not sure what I missed. I thought if I’m called from the unit CO with an offer, I’ll ask to see what the offer is and what the expectations are.
> 
> You seem to be saying that’s not how it’s done?  Take it or leave it?  Any questions about military requirements go look at the website?


I think your expectations about what is going to happen are a little high. Different units do their officer recruitment different ways; with some, the CO personally interviews officer candidates, in others that is delegated to someone like the DCO or a Company Commander etc. So while you may have an interview with the CO, it won't be a "chat" and one thing that isn't going to happen is you negotiating the terms on which you will join the unit one on one with the CO.  

As a recruit, nobody is all that special even if on civie street you are "someone" in your chosen profession and you will be given an offer the same as everyone else gets. For some MOSIDs there are recruiting incentives or promotions to certain ranks based off of established criteria but those are the same across the board as well.  Nobody gets to have a negotiating session with their potential CO to hash out the terms on which they will serve.  The expectations for you will be the same as every other OCdt in the unit.  To show up consistently, to participate in training that is offered, to attend career courses that will get you qualified to OFP so you can actually start doing your job.  If you don't parade more than the bare minimum, if you don't go on a course because it isn't in a location that you prefer etc etc, you are going to find out very rapidly that the unit will lose interest in you and you will end up in a dead end.

The reserves are a flexible and rewarding way for someone to serve their country without a full-time commitment but at the end of the day in order for you to be an attractive candidate and to succeed in your early career, you have to leave a lot of your individual desires and expectations behind and focus on becoming a member of the team.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Oct 2018)

I don't have DWAN access at this particular time...maybe someone can posted the Reserve Officer and NCM TOS CFAO?


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## 211RadOp (25 Oct 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I don't have DWAN access at this particular time...maybe someone can posted the Reserve Officer and NCM TOS CFAO?



DWAN Links only.

Officer ToS CFAO 49-10 http://corpsec.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-10_e.asp
NCM ToS CFAO 49-11 http://corpsec.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-11_e.asp


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## klatham (25 Oct 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Sorry but you are wrong. The regulation provides that "subject to any limitations prescribed by the [CDS] . . .". The order can be given by any superior amongst whom a CO would be the most likely. The CDS is simply made the authority for prescribing any limitations to the QR&O which, incidentally, is a regulation made by the Governor in Council.
> 
> A "lawful excuse" is one that provides a legal justification for not attending. It would not be something that is merely a personal inconvenience such as the ones that you mention.
> 
> ...



What if the Reservist in question was on Class A as a member of a Total Force Unit?  Would they not be subject to the Code of Service Discipline per NDA 60(1)(c)(ix)?  If so, would it then be considered a Service Offence?

_(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, _


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## FJAG (25 Oct 2018)

klatham said:
			
		

> What if the Reservist in question was on Class A as a member of a Total Force Unit?  Would they not be subject to the Code of Service Discipline per NDA 60(1)(c)(ix)?  If so, would it then be considered a Service Offence?
> 
> _(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, _



That's an interesting question which requires more detail. There is no such legal entity in the NDA called a "Total Force Unit". S 15 of the NDA divides the forces into three components (Regular Force, Reserve Force and Special Force). Formations, units and other elements are embodied from time to time in one or another of those three components (S 17(2))

The real question is whether or not your sample Class A reservist is at the time "serving" in a "regular force" unit (There are no Special Force units at this time). This means one has to be able to define the unit as being part of the regular force component. There is a second, and even more difficult question, as to whether or not a Class A reservist, at the time of the offence is actually "serving" if not told off for duty at that time. I'm not aware of any cases in that respect and while I could offer my own opinion it would be nothing more than that and not an official opinion (seeing that I've been retired since 2009).

Just to complicate things even further, paras (vi) and (vii) deal with call outs on service and placing on active service. Generally all these involve some form of Class B or C service and not Class A. There are other strange provisions such as Order in Council OIC P.C. 1989-583 which places all officers and non-commissioned members of the reserve force on active service anywhere beyond Canada for the purposes of fulfilling Canada's commitment to NATO. Based on that one could make the technical argument that a Class A reservist vacationing in Italy could be subject to the CSD for an offence done there. 

"Technical argument" however is not "legally sound argument". Everything depends on the circumstances; the willingness of military prosecutors to press a point; and a judge to accept it as the law. Barrack room lawyering is not as simple as one might hope for.

 :cheers:


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## klatham (25 Oct 2018)

Thanks for that info and analysis. 

I had no idea there was a provision that made Class A reservists subject to the CSD while outside of Canada.  I am guessing that this is not widely known.

The unit I am talking about is a Reg Force regt with a single PRes sqn.


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## garb811 (25 Oct 2018)

While it is interesting as a general topic of discussion to "what if" a whole bunch of different scenarios, it is also important to realize that most of what is being talked about is really an academic exercise rather than something that is anything beyond a remote possibility. I'd be more willing to bet that a MP reservist I know is going to win the $60 mil on Friday before they are going to be ordered to parade for 15 Class B days next summer or charged under s 294 for not showing up on Thursday night even though they belong to a MP Regt (which is a Reg Force unit with a PRes Coy)...


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## ontheedge (25 Oct 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> While it is interesting as a general topic of discussion to "what if" a whole bunch of different scenarios, it is also important to realize that most of what is being talked about is really an academic exercise rather than something that is anything beyond a remote possibility. I'd be more willing to bet that a MP reservist I know is going to win the $60 mil on Friday before they are going to be ordered to parade for 15 Class B days next summer or charged under s 294 for not showing up on Thursday night even though they belong to a MP Regt (which is a Reg Force unit with a PRes Coy)...



Thanks for this. My next question was on a practical level when was this technical power ever used to compel attendance?  Seems like an entire academic discussion as you’ve answered.


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## FJAG (25 Oct 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Thanks for this. My next question was on a practical level when was this technical power ever used to compel attendance?  Seems like an entire academic discussion as you’ve answered.



I was with the Office of the JAG from 1985 to 2006 and never ran across a case where s 294 was used. I had numerous discussions with unit COs and RSMs about how to compel attendance but typically when s 294 was mentioned they lost interest.

I tend to agree with garb811. While there are real powers within the NDA that can be used, the fact that traditionally we have not used them makes much of this discussion academic.

 :cheers:


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## brihard (25 Oct 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Barrack room lawyering is not as simple as one might hope for.
> 
> :cheers:



Pfft. Do you even BEARDFORGEN?


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## TheSnake (26 Nov 2018)

I have a question? As a Class A Reserves, I gave a reason for why I am not showing up for a parade night, they however didn't think it was a great reason I already went to parade more than once this month .Would they give out a NES? or is this them not saying it is a good reason?


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## FJAG (26 Nov 2018)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> I have a question? As a Class A Reserves, I gave a reason for why I am not showing up for a parade night, they however didn't think it was a great reason I already went to parade more than once this month .Would they give out a NES? or is this them not saying it is a good reason?



Check out what the NES policy is in your unit/bde. In general, CFAO 49-11 Annex D provided that a member becomes NES when he/she hasn't paraded for 30 days during which no less than three parades were conducted by the unit. If you've already paraded this month you are most probably not NES. 

 :subbies:


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## brihard (26 Nov 2018)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> I have a question? As a Class A Reserves, I gave a reason for why I am not showing up for a parade night, they however didn't think it was a great reason I already went to parade more than once this month .Would they give out a NES? or is this them not saying it is a good reason?



They cannot use NES in this case, however if attendance expectations have already been communicated to you, there’s nothing that stops them from using administrative action such as initial counseling, recorded warning, counseling and probation, and ultimately release. My regiment is using this to enforce the CO’s orders regarding 75% attendance expectations.

McDonalds would write you up and then quickly fire you for not showing up to work. A reserve unit is a job and can expect and enforce attendance for your scheduled duty. We get a lot of BS or I’ll considered reasons for why guys ‘can’t’ show up on a parade night. It’s up to the chain of command to decide to accept an excuse for not showing up for work.


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## TheSnake (5 Dec 2018)

Regarding ED&T what would happen if it's not approved ?


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## brihard (5 Dec 2018)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> Regarding ED&T what would happen if it's not approved ?



Then you're expected to show up for work per the work schedule your chain of command has given you, same as any other job. Though an ED&T getting denied is rare. You can also file a grievance against a denied ED&T if you feel it's been denied unjustly, and you may get the decision reversed. I'm actually on six months ED&T right now due to an overload of stuff in my life that was hurting my reserve attendance to the point where it was negatively impacting both me and my job performance. My chain understood it and has no issue with it.


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## TheSnake (5 Dec 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Then you're expected to show up for work per the work schedule your chain of command has given you, same as any other job. Though an ED&T getting denied is rare. You can also file a grievance against a denied ED&T if you feel it's been denied unjustly, and you may get the decision reversed. I'm actually on six months ED&T right now due to an overload of stuff in my life that was hurting my reserve attendance to the point where it was negatively impacting both me and my job performance. My chain understood it and has no issue with it.



Thank you, I know it is very unlikely my unit would say no. It's just that I would rather do this than ask for a Release/Quit.


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## da1root (19 Dec 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I was with the Office of the JAG from 1985 to 2006 ....



I was in the OR in 2006-2008... I wonder if you left before I got there... 
Sorry for derailing conversation   This one was a good read!


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## FJAG (19 Dec 2018)

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> I was in the OR in 2006-2008... I wonder if you left before I got there...
> Sorry for derailing conversation   This one was a good read!



Nope. I was still there. In fact Sep 2006 to July 2009 I was working out of Ottawa full time with the Comprehensive Information Management Project team. For the first half I was working out of Baseline with IM Gp folks and the last half at Rideau on the fifth floor just down the hall from DMP. I would have probably been up at the orderly room about once a month or so.

 :subbies:


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## TheSnake (17 Jan 2019)

Quick Question about ED&T even though very unlikely that it get's turned down not once but twice would it be better for my record wise be.

A) just release/quit and skip ED&T
or
B) it doesn't mater why I quit in the end, even if the reason is ED&T is turned down so long as I give notice/bring back kit, and in the future I could join up with the army again (and most likely a different unit) in the future?


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## mariomike (17 Jan 2019)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> Quick Question about ED&T even though very unlikely that it get's turned down not once but twice would it be better for my record wise be.
> 
> A) just release/quit and skip ED&T
> or
> B) it doesn't mater why I quit in the end, even if the reason is ED&T is turned down so long as I give notice/bring back kit, and in the future I could join up with the army again (and most likely a different unit) in the future?



For reference to the discussion see also,

Exempt Drill and Training - Merged  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/31042.25

ED&T
https://army.ca/forums/threads/112548.0

ED&T and Voluntary Release  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/112082.0

etc...


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## RedcapCrusader (18 Jan 2019)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> Quick Question about ED&T even though very unlikely that it get's turned down not once but twice would it be better for my record wise be.
> 
> A) just release/quit and skip ED&T
> or
> B) it doesn't mater why I quit in the end, even if the reason is ED&T is turned down so long as I give notice/bring back kit, and in the future I could join up with the army again (and most likely a different unit) in the future?



Snake,

You have been offered an abundance of help on here and on Reddit. I suggest you start reading and heeding the advice given to you.

I have even offered to help you personally, as I have many connections in 39 Brigade that could be of use to you. If you still wish to take me up on my offer, you can PM me.

Regardless of whatever is going on in your life that you need to go on ED&T, it's highly unlikely it will be rejected. But first and foremost you need to *COMMUNICATE*, by word to your immediate Supervisor/Section Commander and by your ED&T request memo to your CO through the Chain of Command.

There are many people out there (and even in your unit I'm sure), that will help you and want to help you be we can do only so much, you need to reciprocate.

Depending on your circumstances, in the rare event your ED&T is not approved, as long as you show up once a month, you don't have to release.

Releasing is more a long term move, more something you'd do if you don't plan on coming back for several years. If you only need a few weeks or few months to regroup your life, ED&T is the way to go. Getting back in isn't always that easy.

If the problem is that you don't like the trade/unit, you can put in a request for a Voluntary Occupational Reassignment. 

Hope that helps.


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