# Tactical Helicopter Observer Qualification Badge



## Dirty Patricia

I'm trying to find some official regulations or instructions regarding this, but I'm not having much luck.  I 'm pretty sure I'm on track, but I'd like to be sure.  

It's one of those cases that generally angers most members of any military I'd reckon - that insecure poser that figures he'll sew badges on his uniform he isn't entitled to.  

Here's the story......

The _alleged_ poser, a reservist, heads on an SFOR tour to Bosnia as a mission specialist.  He comes back to his unit sporting the Tactical Helicopter Observer wings on his uniform saying they were given to him after his training as a mission specialist.

Am I correct in my understanding that first, there is currently no qualification or specialist insignia for mission specialists.  Next, that with the retirement of the Kiowa, there is no longer a Tactical Helicopter Observer Course and thus the specialist badge is no longer awarded.

I'm giving the member the benefit of the doubt until I find some written direction on the subject.


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## geo

Been seeing men in green with mission specialty badges - door gunners.


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## Cleared Hot

I've got some emails out to contacts in that community but as far as I know there is still no msn spec badge.  Here is a link that while admittedly is not from an official site is pretty comprehensive.

http://va3kgb.ve3kbr.com/forces/air_trade_badges.htm

As for the THOC, no they do not run it anymore but there are a number of experienced guys around still wearing them.   I will be seriously pi**ed if they start handing out those wings to door gunners.  Should they get something sure why not, everyone else in the AF does  : but with a 60% failure rate that was one of the tougher courses we ran.  The jobs are completely different and you can not do what they do from the back of a Griffon, you need to be in the front seat.  Oh and if you are engaging (or even just watching your arcs) with a c-6 you are not fulfilling your Air OP duties.  A few years ago I did some work with 403 Sqn ATF trying to revisit Air Op Stuff, you can do it but it's ugly especially sitting in the back w/o basic instruments like a compass.  At least in the Kiowa you could follow you map - and can you imagine trying to get a pilot to let you tell him when to pop up (pointing in the right direction) for the report of Shot/Splash?  :camo:  In any case, there are a lot of "wings" out there are you sure they were THO?  BTW I am not a real Air Observer - I just spent a bit of time in a former life helping someone else try to reinvent the wheel.


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## aesop081

Cleared Hot said:
			
		

> everyone else in the AF does  :



Who in the AF wears wings that you feel shouldn't ?


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## Cleared Hot

Off the top of my head a few would be...

CE Tech, CE Eng, Cook, Int Op, Int O, MP, MSE Op, Musician, Log O, PSEL O, PAFF O, T&D O.


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## aesop081

Cleared Hot said:
			
		

> CE Tech, CE Eng, Cook, Int Op, Int O, MP, MSE Op, Musician, Log O, PSEL O, PAFF O, T&D O.



Them's just trade badges....not wings.


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## Cleared Hot

I know that's why at the end I put wings in "".  Just meant don't make the attached army guys feel left out.


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## Loachman

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> The _alleged_ poser, a reservist



Any prior regular force Combat Arms Service, including as an Observer prior to 1995?



			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> heads on an SFOR tour to Bosnia as a mission specialist.



I wasn't even aware that we employed any reservists as Mission Specialists, ever, at all.

But then, in the early days, there was no real qualification or course run and people were given the title. We ran a trial course in 400 Squadron a few years ago, which may or may not have been repeated elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure that it was the only official one ever.



			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> He comes back to his unit sporting the Tactical Helicopter Observer wings on his uniform



The stubby wings with the red, yellow, and blue beachball in the middle, right? Was he "sporting" them before he went, as a result of having passed the Observer course run exclusively by 403 Squadron prior to the Kiowa's tragic retirement in 1996? Has he ever flown in a Kiowa? Does he even know what a Kiowa is? Does he know what colour the boathouse is at 403 Squadron?



			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> The _alleged_ poser, a reservist
> saying they were given to him after his training as a mission specialist.



Mission Specialists don't get wings. There are still some Observers kicking around, but I doubt that you'd find one below MWO rank - they were intelligent and talented guys and did well when posted back to their regiments. Unless somebody established a secret OTU in Bosnia, conducted Observer selections, and followed that up with a three-month course run by former Observer Instructors, nobody got an Observer qualification in Bosnia. Somebody _*may*_ have _*given*_ him a set as a *souvenir*, but they are hard to find so I doubt it.



			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> The _alleged_ poser, a reservist
> Am I correct in my understanding that first, there is currently no qualification or specialist insignia for mission specialists.



Yes.



			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> Next, that with the retirement of the Kiowa, there is no longer a Tactical Helicopter Observer Course and thus the specialist badge is no longer awarded.



Correct. The last one would have been awarded over fifteen years ago, to a Combat Arms NCO with the minimum rank of Sergeant.



			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> I'm giving the member the benefit of the doubt until I find some written direction on the subject.



There are far more appropriate things that you can give him.

Demand to see proof of successful completion of the Observer course or even a Mission Specialist course. He won't be able to.

Then out him to his CO.


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## aesop081

Ask to see his log book.


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## ModlrMike

Have a look at the MPRR or course report, then cross reference your findings with the dress instructions. In most cases, lack of evidence in the personnel documents should be sufficient.


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## Cleared Hot

Had my first reply from a buddy who recently returned from a tour with 408 as a msn spec.  He said that while they never had a spec badge they were trying for one and there were a number of design prototypes put forward with the front-runner being modelled after (and looked a lot like) the THO badge.  Does anyone know if a mission spec badge was recently approved?  I don't think so but...


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## ModlrMike

I don't think so either, but you could check the DHH website for the latest changes to the dress instruction. If there is a new badge, you should find it there. You can also scan the CANFORGENs.


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## Cleared Hot

Okay, it's official, as Loachman said, still no Msn Spec badge being issued.  In fact, there isn't even an approved Msn Spec Course, units just run their own local training getting new guys up to speed and no, they don't hand out "wings" after.  That being said, you can get anything you want made on the boardwalk... some of it looks pretty official too.


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## Dirty Patricia

Loachman said:
			
		

> Any prior regular force Combat Arms Service, including as an Observer prior to 1995?


*Not a day of service as a reg force soldier.*



> I wasn't even aware that we employed any reservists as Mission Specialists, ever, at all.


*There were some and he did to it - I'll give him that much.*



> The stubby wings with the red, yellow, and blue beachball in the middle, right? Was he "sporting" them before he went, as a result of having passed the Observer course run exclusively by 403 Squadron prior to the Kiowa's tragic retirement in 1996?


*Those are the ones he wears (picture below) and he didn't have them on his uniform until he returned from Bosnia.  He says outright that he was awarded them after being qualified as a Msn Spec. *







> Then out him to his CO.


*How did you know he was gay too?! 
*


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## Cleared Hot

There is no reason to be wearing THAT badge unless you completed the THO Course.  I don't care if he did deploy as a msn spec to Bosnia or anywhere else for that matter. :clubinhand:


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## Etienne

Altought I did not participate in this discussion (lack of knowledge on this matter), after everything that was said, it reminded me of a saying in french from a certain someone     "À gang on sait toutes" which translate in "With all of us, we know everything". 

Bring him down from is ivory tower ! :threat:

I hate posers !!

Etienne


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## Loachman

He is most definitely a poser and deserves everything that you can have done to him.


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## MedCorps

If it is any help.  The qualification on the MPRR you are looking for is "Tactical Helicopter Observation" with a qual code of "AGPL".  

More information on this qual can be found in A-PD-055-003/PQ-001 (last approved in 2003). 

The course notes as a pre-req: 

- Qualified 6A with 1 year of experience as a Sgt in a field unit. 
- Specialty MOC experience in Armd Recce, FOO Tech, mortar Fire Controller, Recce Pl, or Engr Recce Det.   

If you look at A-PO-011-020/PC-001 (the course doc, which is a little dated, but so is the qual) it indicated that the course is 65 trg days.  


I hope that is of some help. 

MC


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## Loachman

MedCorps said:
			
		

> the course doc, which is a little dated, but so is the qual



Yup - the course hasn't been run for 1.5 decades.



			
				MedCorps said:
			
		

> it indicated that the course is 65 trg days.


_*Was*_ 65 trg days.

Unless this guy also has his Time Traveller Wings...


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## armoured recce man

I'm currently employ as a mission spec at 430, and it is true that there is no mission spec wings altough authorisation were given to wear the general aircrew wings ( same one as the steward and such..)The current mission spec wings are actually the general aircrew wings with the cross sword under them. Everything regarding  mission specialist is awaiting approval....and it as been that way for the last 10 years... and by the way request were made for door gunners to wear those wing upon completion of their course but that was turn down, but my gunners came up with wings of their own and they've been authorise to wear in theatre


cheers


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## mover1

got any pics?


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## armoured recce man

yes, at work...


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## beenthere

It all sounds like BS to me. You can only wear what you are qualified to wear.


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## ModlrMike

beenthere said:
			
		

> It all sounds like BS to me. You can only wear what you are qualified to wear.



I would add "and what has been authorised for wear".


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## RetiredRoyal

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=3397

mayhaps read this. I think the grunts acting as a mission specialist as a door gunner is not a trade or specialty, but perhaps a position on the helomocopter. I have rode along many times as a 'spotter' never got special wings etc for it. Its just a casual position on the air weapons platform. I want a peanut cluster on my wings.


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## Loachman

Has this fellow been straightened out yet?


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## FltEngr

A little bit off topic here but I'm just curious about a similar badge I've seen as a signature on work emails. It's basically the aircrew wings like the THO but instead of having the circle with 3 colors in the middle it has 2 swords crossing each other with a red maple leaf on top of the swords, it reminds me the Army emblem. Anybody else saw that one?


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## Loachman

I had a glimpse of a stub-winged badge on a Mission Specialist's flying suit here recently, but did not get a close look. It could well have been that.


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## T Man

Loachman et al,
If you want the straight scoop then direct your question to the 1 Wing CWO. I think you would be pleaseantly surprised by the correct official answer.



Cheers

T Man

PM me if you have issue.


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## Loachman

FltEngr said:
			
		

> A little bit off topic here but I'm just curious about a similar badge I've seen as a signature on work emails. It's basically the aircrew wings like the THO but instead of having the circle with 3 colors in the middle it has 2 swords crossing each other with a red maple leaf on top of the swords, it reminds me the Army emblem. Anybody else saw that one?



I confirmed yesterday that that badge has been approved for wear by mission specialists, at least in theatre.


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## outlaw22

About the Mission Spec course, There was an official mission spec course run out of 427 in Nov/Dec 07. This course was given the green light from 1 Wing. There was candidates from 408, 427 and 403. At the end of the course they were presented the General Aircrew wings from CO 427. Also there was the pilot course in 2005 which produced qualified mission spec's. After the course in 2007 there has not been another official course run. The so called mission spec's over sea's are by name only. "Edit, 430 ran a in house course, not sure of the dates"

There is a lot more that a MS does then just man a DG but that depends upon the mission and how the AC Captain wants to employ them and use the skill set that you bring to the table. Considering MS come from Arm, Inf and Arty with a lot of advance course and many many years of training between them.


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## Doorgunner408

I am one of the Msn Specs at 408 and I recieved a call awhile back from a friend looking into something just like this (might be the same guy). As stated above, the only guys that should be wearing the Observers badge would be in thier 40's or 50's now. 

As for the gunners that deployed with us, one of the 146 AC's researched the Aerial Gunners badge from WW2 and had it updated. The Flight presented the gunners with this and they wore it for a few weeks until the Wing Comd told them to take them off. The current Door gunners (430) are sporting a set of wings that have a M-134 barrel (seen from the front) with a set of bat wings (The bat is for 1 Wing) and have M-134 Gunner over top. I am not too sure what they do when they fly with a C-6.

Having said that, myself and the other Msn Spec did wear the badge with the two crossed swords and it was approved by the Wing Comd.


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