Author Topic: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread  (Read 230093 times)

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CrazyCanuck

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2006, 19:58:56 »
If we did just let them kill each other do you think they would ever forgive us? That would give more voice to the idea that all their suffering is the West's fault. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2006, 20:27:17 »
I think the decision has been made to let our proxies deal with the Islamic Courts in Somalia.

Offline Adrian_888

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2006, 20:45:40 »
This is a good question. Why should we?  Sure there's the typical well the horrors of war must be stopped and we must now go and stop them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating wars sufferings as unimportant. But don't we always intervene when this stuff happens... anywhere in the world. Perhaps we should just let Africa stew for a decade or so and then move in to clean up? You know, let them blow off some steam rather than the white man coming back to tell them to stop it and be good.

I agree, why do we always think that other countries conflicts are our own, war is the most efficient way to resolve a conflict... sounds kind F'ed up, but its true (from a methodical point of view at least).  I believe that unless a majority of people ask for help, then theres no way to justify dying for something like this. Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it.

Offline sober_ruski

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2006, 21:07:03 »
Quote
The U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the Security Council denounced the fighting and urged the interim government and Islamists to resume peace talks.
Does anyone else sees the problem with that?

Offline old fart

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2006, 21:10:00 »
History correction - The UN won the war in Bosnia and Croatia after hard fought battles in summer/fall 95. The war ended in Oct 95, NATO as IFOR arrived in Jan Feb time frame 96 when the war had already ended.

IFOR deployed Dec 95 - Jan 96....UN won the war....come on....

I think you will find it was NATO airpower (hate to admit that), can't remember the air campaign name, (and to close to some xmas festivites to look up), that brought the Serbs to the table, resulting the in Dayton Accords.

Nothing whatever to do with the UN...

« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 16:52:02 by old fart »
"Soldiering on"

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2006, 10:16:01 »
Ethiopia deployed combat aircraft for the first time against the Islamic Courts forces.Reminds me of the Italians using planes against the Ethiopians. The IC lack aircraft so the use of jets should enhance the fighting capabilities of the Ethiopian ground forces.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061224/ap_on_re_af/somalia

Quote
"After too much patience, the Ethiopian government has taken a self-defensive measure and has begun counterattacking the aggressive extremist forces of the (Islamic council) and foreign terrorist groups," said Ethiopia's foreign affairs spokesman, Solomon Abebe.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2006, 12:09:17 »
Why in heaven's name should Somalia be a Canadian priority? War update
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/008498.html

Ethiopia attacks Somalia Islamic council
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061224/ap_on_re_af/somalia_45

Quote
Ethiopia launched an attack Sunday on Somalia's powerful Islamic movement, sending fighter jets across the border and bombarding several towns in a major escalation of the violence that threatens to engulf the Horn of Africa.

Ethiopia confirmed the attacks, the first time it has acknowledged that its troops were fighting in Somalia, though witnesses have reported their presence for weeks.

"After too much patience, the Ethiopian government has taken a self-defensive measure and has begun counterattacking the aggressive extremist forces of the (Islamic council) and foreign terrorist groups," said Ethiopia's foreign affairs spokesman, Solomon Abebe.

The Council of Islamic Courts has vowed to drive out troops from neighboring Ethiopia, a largely Christian nation that is providing military support to Somalia's U.N.-backed government.

"They are cowards," said Sheik Mohamoud Ibrahim Suley, an official with Somalia's Council of Islamic Courts. "They are afraid of the face-to-face war and resorted to airstrikes. I hope God will help us shoot down their planes."

But Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf said his forces have gained the upper hand.

"I think they have met a resistance they have never dreamt of before," Yusuf said in brief remarks from Baidoa — the only town the government controls — as the battles began to die down Sunday afternoon...

As Sunday's fighting wore on, the Islamic leadership in the capital, Mogadishu, began broadcasting patriotic songs about Somalia's 1977 war with Ethiopia. Abdi Mohamed Osman, who owns a shop in the capital, said businessman were closing their shops to go and fight.

"We are going to support our brothers on the front line," he said.

The Ethiopian airstrikes were the first against Somalia's Islamic movement. Ethiopia and Somalia have fought two wars over their disputed border in the past 45 years. Islamic court leaders have repeatedly said they want to incorporate ethnic Somalis living in eastern Ethiopia, northeastern Kenya and Djibouti into a Greater Somalia...

Somalia militia seeks foreign fighters
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061224/ap_on_re_af/somalia_38

Quote
Islamic militants who want to govern Somalia by the Quran urged foreign Muslims on Saturday to join their war with Ethiopian troops, as heavy fighting broke out Sunday in this volatile nation that threatens to escalate into a regional conflict...


Mark
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« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 12:51:59 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

CrazyCanuck

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2006, 15:23:17 »
What jets do the Ethiopians have?

Offline Argh to the Zee

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2006, 15:34:12 »
What jets do the Ethiopians have?

If I recall, they have Su-27's piloted by Russian or Ukraine pilots that they hire. (Ex RUS or UKR AF pers...but that might of changed, that was from the 1998 war with Ereteria, and they have trained their own pilots for that plane by now)
Also, they fly Mig-17, 21 and 23. Some F-5 as well and they have two Su-25 Frogfoot CAS planes. I would imagine the MiG-17 is limited to a CAS/bombing role against light infantry only, since its very very old and rather dated for anything but strafing infantry.

They have some Ka-50 and Mi-24 attack whirrly's too.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 15:40:31 by rz350 »

Offline sober_ruski

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2006, 16:09:17 »
Are you sure they have KA-50 "Black Shark"?

Offline Argh to the Zee

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2006, 16:43:02 »
thats according to wiki, it seemed a bit dodgy to me as well. But ya never know. (and it says they only have 2 of the Ka-50...its possible)

Offline Emenince Grise

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2006, 16:47:43 »
Looks like it has begun...

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/12/24/somalia.html

Quote
Ethiopia declares war against Somali militants
Sends troops to bombard towns across the border
Last Updated: Sunday, December 24, 2006 | 3:43 PM ET
The Associated Press
Ethiopia has moved openly for the first time against Islamic militants in neighbouring Somalia, striking in border towns Sunday amid fears that the violence could engulf the Horn of Africa.

Until now, Ethiopia has supported Somalia's weak interim government against the militants, but has denied that its troops have crossed the border to fight — even though witnesses have been describing such attacks for weeks.

Offline Emenince Grise

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2006, 16:53:15 »
If I recall, they have Su-27's piloted by Russian or Ukraine pilots that they hire. (Ex RUS or UKR AF pers...but that might of changed, that was from the 1998 war with Ereteria, and they have trained their own pilots for that plane by now)
Also, they fly Mig-17, 21 and 23. Some F-5 as well and they have two Su-25 Frogfoot CAS planes. I would imagine the MiG-17 is limited to a CAS/bombing role against light infantry only, since its very very old and rather dated for anything but strafing infantry.

They have some Ka-50 and Mi-24 attack whirrly's too.

You can read a good account of the last Ethiopian/Eritrean air conflict in the late 90's/early 2000's here:

http://www.dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_archive/apr-may03/0303.html

EAF pictures here:

http://www.mediaethiopia.com/photoessay/photo_essay_EAF.htm

Offline Argh to the Zee

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2006, 17:51:01 »
Good link...I was just trying to give a brief statement of their equipment

CrazyCanuck

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2006, 18:45:28 »
It will be interesting to see how the west reacts to this, I'm wondering how close it will mirror the Isreal-Hezbolla conflict in regards to Western opinion

Offline Freddy G

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2006, 19:16:00 »
It will be interesting to see how the west reacts to this, I'm wondering how close it will mirror the Isreal-Hezbolla conflict in regards to Western opinion

You know the result as well as I do: the legitimate authorities will come out looking like bad guys (worse than the Empire) and the terrorists will look like victims of the evil conspiracy against... uh... terror.
My posts are my opinion alone and do not reflect any other person or group's opinion... because you can't handle the truth, and deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me to say these things.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2006, 10:02:14 »
The Islamic Courts have retreated from Mogadishu to their last stronghold of Kismayo. Many of their fighters have taken off their uniforms and blended into the population,an insurgency is probably planned its effectiveness may be problematic. The IC did not make themselves very popular during their brief time in power.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061227/ethopia_somali_061228/20061228?hub=TopStories

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2006, 19:04:54 »
War now:

Somalia War: Mogadishu falls to Christians
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/008508.html

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline NL_engineer

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2006, 23:14:44 »


Article link http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061227/ethopia_somali_061228/20061228?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Quote
CTV.ca News Staff

Somalia's government plans to declare martial law for three months, after Ethiopian-backed troops took over the capital Mogadishu from their Islamist rivals.

"This country has experienced anarchy and in order to restore security we need a strong hand, especially with freelance militias," Somali Prime Minister Ali Mohamad Gedi told reporters Thursday.

He added that martial law could begin as early as Saturday.

Militiamen for the Somalia Islamic Courts Council (SICC) had controlled Mogadishu since June, attempting to establish a government based on a strict interpretation of Islam that echoed the Taliban.

Before Somali troops entered the capital, hundreds of militiamen who had backed the Islamist faction showed they had switched allegiance by taking off their uniforms.

"We have been defeated. I have removed my uniform. Most of my comrades have also changed into civilian clothes," one former SICC fighter told Reuters. "Most of our leaders have fled.

Meanwhile, at least 17 refugees fleeing the conflict zone drowned when their boat capsized in the Gulf of Aden, the United Nations refugee agency said Thursday.

The confrontation occurred Wednesday when Yemeni authorities discovered four boats, carrying about 515 people, and opened fire. The agency said 140 people were still missing.

Earlier, Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi said officials had been discussing how to keep Mogadishu from descending into chaos.

"We will not let Mogadishu burn," Meles told reporters in Addis Ababa.

Ethiopian and Somali government troops advanced on the capital from the north and the west, capturing the country's most important airfield and driving Islamic fighters out of Jowhar, the last major town on the road leading to Mogadishu.

Somali officer Col. Ahmed Omar said that Ethiopian troops would stop advancing on Mogadishu but that government forces would approach the capital.

Islamists said they had left Mogadishu but vowed they would not give up without a fight.

Residents south of the city told The Associated Press that Islamist forces were headed south toward the port city of Kismayo, their last remaining stronghold.

One former Islamic fighter who quit Thursday, Yusuf Ibrahim, said about 3,000 fighters had left for Kismayo, some 500 kilometres to the south.

Abdirahman Janaqow, a senior leader, told AP he ordered his forces out of the capital to avoid bloodshed.

"We decided to leave Mogadishu because of the safety of the civilians," Janaqow said. "We want to face our enemy and their stooges in a separate area, away from civilians."

Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf is expected to offer the clans a truce later Thursday.

Some analysts fear that the SICC could focus on guerrilla fighting, especially if Ethiopia fails to help Somali maintain long-term security.

Clan system

Somalia's complex clan system has formed the basis of the country's politics and identity for centuries.

But clan infighting has prevented Somalia from having an effective government since clan-based warlords ousted longtime dictator Mohamed Siad Barre in 1991, thrusting the country into anarchy.

Two years ago, the United Nations helped set up the interim government. But until the past week, it had little influence outside of its seat in the city of Baidoa, in part because it had been weakened by clan rivalries.

The Council of Islamic Courts seized Mogadishu in June and went on to take much of southern Somalia after chasing U.S.-backed warlords from the city.

They were later joined by foreign militants, including Pakistanis and Arabs, who supported their goal of making Somalia an Islamic state.

While many Somalis appeared to welcome the law and order that came when the militiamen imposed Islamic law, others rejected the strict enforcement of Islamic codes.

The Islamists appeared to be unbeatable after seizing the capital, but they have been no match for Ethiopia, which has the strongest military in the Horn of Africa.

On Sunday, Ethiopia sent fighter jets streaking deep into militia-held areas to help Somalia's UN-recognized government push back the Islamists.

Ethiopia got involved after the Islamists tried to march on the government base of Baidoa.

Ethiopia's prime minister has said that his country was "forced to enter a war" with the Council of Islamic Courts after the group declared holy war on Ethiopia, a largely Christian country that has feared the emergence of a neighbouring Islamic state.
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Offline Dogboy

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2006, 01:57:59 »
the flip side is Somalia was calming down under the Cort's rule and stabilizing .
something the gov. in exile was unable to do.
and don't forget most Somalians hate Ethiopia for past wars.
and the fact that the gov.in exile was also made up of warlords as well.
but hey I guess their on our side.
Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline warspite

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2006, 01:59:36 »
Well looks like Somalia is declaring martial law in order for the government to take root...
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/12/28/somalia-mogadishu.html

Offline retiredgrunt45

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2006, 02:29:47 »
It's ironic, heres two countries that can't feed their population's, but somehow they never have a problem buying bullets and bombs for their wars!

 It seems theres a power struggle every few years in these countries, one warlord knocks of another and siezes power until the next one comes along and knocks him from the throne, its a damn merry-go-round. Meanwhile people starve to death or are caught in the crossfire.

 They should send these war mongering idiots to a deserted island and give them each and atomic bomb and see which idiot will be the first one to push the button.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 02:40:29 by retiredgrunt45 »
The first goal of any political party is to stay in power by whatever means possible. Their second goal is to fool us into believing that we should keep them in power.

A politician is like a used car saleman, he'll promise you a "peach" and then turn around and sell you a "lemon"

"Politicians are like diapers, they have to be changed often because their usually full of crap.

Offline harry8422

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2006, 02:51:54 »
my thoughts exactly
pro patria     R.I.P my fallen brothers and sisters

Offline Yrys

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Re: "Somalia: War with Ethiopia on Tuesday?"
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2006, 06:02:01 »
US wary of Somali 'terror' links

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6212321.stm

Quote
The United States has closely followed the gains made by Somali government
forces, supported by Ethiopian armour and troops, against Islamist militiamen.

Washington is determined to prevent the spread of fundamentalist Islam to Africa
 and has been deeply concerned by the rise of the Union of Islamic Courts.
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aesop081

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Re: War beginning in the horn of Africa?
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2006, 09:30:21 »
History correction - The UN won the war in Bosnia and Croatia

 :rofl:

Wow, sorry for the late reply but i must have seriously missed something when i was there !!  There were some pitched engagements over there, yes, but saying that the UN won the war is a bit much, even for you.  You must have been in too deep to see the ineffectivenes of the UN i guess.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 09:35:45 by cdnaviator »