Author Topic: Islam and Western Society  (Read 196536 times)

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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2004, 17:45:09 »
"to convert all those unconverted on pain of death"

If you're going to use quotations, make sure it's the proper one especially when such allegations are concerned.
It is honestly this exact same thing that causes hate for Muslims, not saying your full of hate. But it can be as simple as misquoted passages from the Qu'ran in the media, etc. That causes misconceptions.

â Å“Let there be no compulsion in religionâ ? (2:256a).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you find what you are looking for in ANY religion. If you look for a wrathful God unleashing the fires of hell on the infidels, you will find it in ANY religious text etc. If you're looking for peace, brotherhood, spiritual prosperity and guidelines with which to live an upright life, then you'll find them as well.

Firstly, the people that were "converted on pain of death" were polytheists, not Christians and Jews. The Christians and Jews were to pay taxes to the Muslims...now today that's obviously probably not going to fly, but we're not talking modern times..everyone was killing the pagans back then.
Now, I won't lie, the people of the book were certainly under pressure to convert, but under penalty of death? No.

The truth is, Muslims, living in the Near-east and Christians living everywhere else were all behaving in the same manner and following basically the same principles.

But this is all off topic..

By comparing Christianity to Islam in the context of the war on Terror, you essentially turn it into a modern Crusade...which makes us no better then those classic crusaders converting by the sword(On both sides of the religious spectrum)
So In all seriousness folks, I think there is a general consensus that the eradication of Islam is not going to happen, nor is it a viable option. That terrorists are terrorists plain and simple, eradicating the religion that you would believe most of them to be, will not get rid of terrorists and will as I've stated already, leave a blackmark on history that will be remembered as a genocide, not a "good" war.

My prediction is that even if Islam were somehow miraculously eradicated, hundreds of years later after people finally realised that, hey, the world isn't that much better now...and we systematically killed more then a billion people...an officialy apology would be made but 1 Billion people would still have died in vain...So, personally I wouldn't care, and neither would my children..they wouldn't exist and I'll be long dead (Killed in the purges I imagine)   but I'm certain this would weigh on the conscience of many billions more.

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2004, 17:46:44 »
Quote
Its not gonna happen overnight. We are in for a the long haul.

Precisely Wes, in the context of the thread, this is the answer..not the erradication of the entire religion which is the shortcut to "peace"


Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2004, 18:02:10 »
From today's paper. They say a picture has 1000 words. Here is 2000 words.
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Offline I, Citizen

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2004, 18:17:18 »
Any resentment lurking around in Indonesia is most likely a remnant of the Dutch East India company's actions. I can certainly admit that what we did there was not right.. but attacking the Australian embassy is slightly off colour for any of the popular protest reasons of today..
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2004, 18:37:53 »
 :o Mate, are you for real?     ::) Wake up to today!

The attack of our embassy has got nothing to do with the Dutch or its companies, and the same goes with the gutless attack on Kuta Beach in Bali   (thats in Indonesia too) on 12 Oct 02, (oops... you were only 15 yrs old when that happened) where over 200 people were killed which included 89 Australians, and six of them lived in my neighbourhood!

FYI - JI has just announced they are taking responsibilty for yesterday's murderous act, and say they will continue to attack Australian interests overseas and on our own soil until our troops leave Iraq.

JI was also responsible for the Marriot Hotel bombing in Aug 2003 in Jakarta (12 people murdered, dozens injured), and of course the Bali bombings the year previous to that.

This is the second attack against us in less than two years, and Australia has been attacked not for what we have done, but for who we are.

That is we are a freedom loving people with free views and expressions and complete freedom, while to the north you are mudrered for your beliefs. Sure we were directly involved in defeating Indonesia on the East Timor front, and fighting this new war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq. We will continue to do this until our mandate is filled.

Many in Indonesia see us as a Christian crusading nation who has forced islam out of and defeated their government in East Timor, and there is much bitterness by many.

Sadly in this cowardly   :rage: attack   :rage: yesterday, its the broad muslim Indonesian people that suffer (and die a the hands of other muslims), along with their tourism industry and economy. Try www.dfat.gov.au if you want to know the Australian governments recomendations on travel to that region.

Australian Federal Police have flown into Jakarta, and are on site and assisting Indonesian local police with forensic help learned from Kuta Beach.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 01:15:57 by Wesley H. Allen, CD »
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Offline I, Citizen

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2004, 19:02:17 »
so, in your esteemed opinion, what do you consider to be the reason for this attack?
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2004, 19:06:00 »
Wes already answered that:

Quote
FYI JI has just announced they are taking responsibilty for yesterday's murderous act, and say they will continue to attack Australian interests until our troops leave Iraq.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline I, Citizen

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2004, 19:08:27 »
point taken
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2004, 19:25:56 »
In my esteemed opinion  ;) , I do beleive another LoEI nomination is about to happen sooner than later.
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2004, 19:27:28 »
Keep it on topic gents

Offline gozonuts

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2004, 19:32:52 »
I think the question "should we get rid of Islam" may have been tongue in cheek, but even though, it is an interesting question. Aren't we all a little sick of the Muslim problem in the world today? We are told over and over that we shouldn't "paint them all with the same brush", and someone even parroted this in a post. If we can't pait them with same brush, why is it that the Muslim community are not MUCH more vocal in their condemnation of the terrorists? I live in Montreal where you cannot throw a rock without hitting an Arab, and often have classes cancelled due their demostrations (ie breaking windows, ganging up on Jews etc.) . I pay tuition as do they, yet I have to suffer the loss of classes and lecturers scheduled to visit my university that they don't approve of. The government should set basic standards when allowing imports into our country, like basic manners and how to fit into our society, and to leave your hate at the door. Instead the government allows terrorist's wives and children to return to our country on our dime after they have went on record and described in detail why they hate us and our values - at least if this happened in the U.S., they would have been lynched had the government allowed them back in. When Canada gets a taste of terrorism such as the Americans, Australians, and pretty much everyone else, then I feel most people here will get over their liberal ideals. Here is a little tidbit I found on the net - kind of silly, but something to think about.

--- In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, Israeli athletes were kidnapped and   massacred by:
a. Olga Corbutt
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
   
--- In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old   American passenger was murdered in his wheelchair and thrown overboard by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
   
--- In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
a. Captain Kid
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- On 9/11/2001, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were murdered by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, Elmer Fudd
b. Florida's Governor Jeb Bush
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 2002 four French journalists, including one woman, were dragged from their cars near the Pakistan border with Afghanistan, taken behind some rocks, and shot to death by:
a. Gang Green's front four
b. Barney
c. The Smashing Pumpkins
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
   
--- In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

--- American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami on December 22, 2001 had a passenger with a 'Shoe Bomb' who tried to blow up the plane but was over powered and captured by passengers was:
a. A distraught Al Gore gone radical 1960's hippie mental
b. Monica Lewinsky who said she was tired of hearing Bill play the Saxophone
c. Donald Rumsfeld
d. Richard Colvan Reid a.k.a. Tariq Rajah a.k.a. Abdel Rahim, a typical useless low life cowardly radical Muslim ******* caught and convicted of this crime

--- In May 2004 American Businessman Nicholas Evan Berg was captured in Iraq and beheaded by:
a. The French Foreign Legion using a guillotine under direct orders from President Jacques Chirac
b. A wild band of crazy Japanese Samurai Warriors
c. A Philippine Truck Driver who rig ran out of control
d. Committed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of an Islamist (Muslim) terrorist group which is part of al-Qaida operating inside Iraq
 

 :soldier:
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2004, 19:44:14 »
Quote
Aren't we all a little sick of the Muslim problem

What would be your "Final Solution" ?

I'm sorry if you feel I'm parroting the idea that it's wrong to paint a group with the same brush. Would you paint all blacks with the same Brush because 1 in 10 Black males are currently in Prison?
I'm also sorry you think that the majority of Muslims do not oppose terrorism and that the terrorists wives and children are a good representation of what the majority of Muslims (You should take issue with the government over that, not Muslims)
The majority of Muslims want to live their lives like any other, when we do speak out against terrorism who covers it? NOBODY.
Every Friday I give a lecture to the youth at my mosque about how to be a respectful young Muslims and how to live in a secular country, I and a large group of other young Muslims my age give the same lecture in Mosques all over North America.
Why does no one choose to talk about this? Why does everyone choose to present the Arab store owner, or cab driver as a negative image rather then the positive image of how a Muslim can be an outstanding citizen in a country they move to?
Why is it that people such as myself are ignored completely when we represent the majority of Muslims?

I've been saturated by that list of bombings and how clever it is. I'm sure it might interest you to know that the list is generally believed to have been started by a group called "The Heritage Front"
It's the truth, no one will question that. But it is selective reporting, selective in the sense that once again people are only willing to see what they want, that is the image of the AK waving, Qu'Ran reciting long bearded Arab/Muslim.

1 Billion Muslims in the world, 365 days in a year, 1 Billion Muslims live seperate lives that no one considers and believe it or not they don't all fit into the the media friendly image of the Osama bin Laden loving idiot.

Offline Gunnerlove

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2004, 19:57:02 »
Don't forget the sinking of the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.
Oh wait wrong religious fanatics. Guess we should get rid of all people who are crazy about "their" god.
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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2004, 20:07:16 »
I know this is a sensative issue and i by no means condone genocide or anything of the sort, but the fact is that the only people who are really doing anything about the Islamic extremists are the non muslims. Instead of rallying in support of the extremests or saying it was their oppressors (Israel, United States, etc) who drove them to do the acts of terror, why arent they protesting against them? Why arent there thousands of pro peace palestinians infront of the parliment building, saying that the killing on both sides stop? I have never heard of 10 000 palestinians walking the streets yelling peace to the middle east, usually its about how the jews are terrorists, death to the infidel bla bla bla. Instead of perpetuating violent actions or thoughts through rallies and crying when people say that all white people are against middle eastern people why dont you get your communities to hold a rally that opposes the extremests. I believe you are sincere in your wishes for peace and anger at the terrorists. But the fact remains, unless you are ready to speak out against them, your silence speaks with them.

Rant Off

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2004, 20:28:00 »
Perfect example Niss thankyou.
I've noticed on this site the people are at constant odds with the media in general "IF you believe everything the media tells you, you're an idiot." Except when it comes time to blame the brown guy, then the only thing we know about the Middle east is what we see on CNN (Muhamed Q. Public with his Kalishnakov)
Fact of the matter is I do speak out against them, so in that sense, I suppose I'm not with them. That way of discerning terrorists from regular Ahmed down the street is deeply flawed. There are rallies, Muslims are for peace, but you will not see them on CNN. I rarely bring up the media, mainly because I despise it (CNN, Al-Jaz, Fox, you name it) They are not the cause of all Muslim's problems, but they are keeping the divide between the West and the East nice and wide. They aren't the only ones, leaders in the middle east (Israeli, Arab, American) are TERRIBLE.. bar none, but your average Muslims is almost exactly like you. Perhaps he is more passionate about things religious, that is the nature of Islam, it is part of everyday life for a Muslim (A concept impossible for someone from the West to grasp) which is exactly what makes it susceptible to terrorism. Our perfection is our downfall, it is our devout nature and love for God that makes a young Muslim easy pray.
I'm doing my part, There are literally, thousands of young Muslims my age doing the same, fact of the matter is, you will never see us on TV..you will never read about us in the news. It's a hard concept for someone from the west to grasp, but imagine if the only news you ever saw about America was about people like Ted Bundy and Ted Kazynski.

I could write pages and pages but I do grow quite weary of it, I love to help people understand Islam and I love it when someone finally figures out some of the basics. However I find that mostly people only want to hear the bad things about it and hence, they will only find the bad things about it. I will be no part of that, find a mosque in your area, find a Muslim teacher at a university and talk to them for a proper introduction. You don't have to obviously, but that's the best advice I could give you. Reading about Islam on the internet will give you a flawed perception and I don't want to make it worse, so please if anyone is serious about bridging the gap between west and east, education is the beginning but not here! Go! Seek it out in real life my square eyed minions! LEARN!

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2004, 20:54:36 »
Any militant extremist, no matter what god they pray to, are my enemy.  :threat:

Period
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2004, 21:07:15 »
Che

Thanks for all the calm insight into this matter.   It is a difficult topic to remain calm and that is the question I am asking.   Unfortunately you are one of the few who have spoken out against the radical fundamentalists who are reigning terror around the world.   Many moderates are living in fear, and fear reprisals if they do speak out.   I am worried that if the moderates don't speak up soon, in larger numbers, many other nations and religions will blindly condemn all and there may be dire consequences.

I think the question "should we get rid of Islam"

Gozonuts.....that was not the question of this topic.   The question is:
Quote
With the recent actions of extreme Islamic Fundamentalists around the world, in Iraq, Spain, Russia and many other places, and the fear of moderate Muslims to act against or voice opposition to the radicals, are the grounds for a 'Reverse Jihad' in the makings?

"Will the escalation of Terror by a radical few condemn a whole section of society to be ostracized and suffer retaliation world wide scale?   Does the moderates' silence further compound their problem?
Quote
Unless the moderates start turning in the 'Fanatics', are we headed for a major disruption of our societies?   Will we see Islam banned from nations other than those in the Middle East?
 

So far we are living in a very tolerant society here in Canada, but how long will we and the rest of the world "turn the other cheek" and refrain from invoking strict measures to curtail the spread of Violence?   Will we write new "Hate Laws" outlawing certain Sects?   Will we deport enmasse whole segments of our population?   What kind of speculation do you have of our future, if we don't stop the terror?

GW
« Last Edit: September 09, 2004, 21:14:10 by George Wallace »
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Offline 48Highlander

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2004, 21:23:00 »
So far we are living in a very tolerant society here in Canada, but how long will we and the rest of the world "turn the other cheek" and refrain from invoking strict measures to curtail the spread of Violence?   Will we write new "Hate Laws" outlawing certain Sects?   Will we deport enmasse whole segments of our population?   What kind of speculation do you have of our future, if we don't stop the terror?

I doubt any of that will happen.  We DO live in a very tolerant society.  Most of us are still outraged when mosques get vandalized or destroyed here in Toronto, and the police do treat it as a hate crime and deal with it accordingly.  The only way I could see Canadian attitudes and policy changing is if Muslim extremists decided to set up shop here in massive numbers, and began killing people on a daily basis.  If that happened, we might very well have to consider deporting "enmasse whole segments of our population".

Offline I, Citizen

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2004, 21:38:42 »
I believe that the problem does not lie in their religion as I might have come across earlier as saying but in their own comprehension thereof. Che is right when he said 'you will find what you look for in any religion' or something to that measure. Quite possibly the entire prospect of what I shall call 'innocent' terrorists (innocent meaning that they are acting in good faith to their teachings) could be eliminated by a better understanding of their own religion. People like Che are doing the right thing by educating their pupils?/students etc.. in Islam. The people that deserve to be exported/jailed/shot are those that twist the minds of their followers, these of course being the 'bloodied' terrorists. The fact that the media is extraordinarily biased certainly adds to the confusion. Ergo, the only way to solve the 'terrorist' problem is to have every mullah we can get preaching peace/rationalization/debating vs. violence. this would remove the religious factor of their platform. Once done their eventual capture and incarcaration * :threat:*  would see them proscecuted as criminals against mankind instead of martyrs for Islam.
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Offline Gunnerlove

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2004, 21:48:09 »
I believe French Muslims just held a massive demonstration against the violence and murder of captives in Iraq and in support of the French journalists held captive there.

Economic development and the creation/re-creation of a "middle class" in the whole Arab world should be a keystone in the war against terrorism. It is far easier to recruit terrorists and suicide bombers from an uneducated, unemployed group with no hope or future. Waging war against an entire people/ race/ religion will only cause them to close ranks and lash out rationally or irrationally against threats both real and perceived.

Genocide is a crime that will never be justified.
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"In a gunfight four rounds in four inches in 4 seconds will always be a better grouping than two rounds through the same hole in twice the time" My father

Offline gozonuts

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2004, 23:12:33 »
Dear Che,

You stated     "I'm also sorry you think that the majority of Muslims do not oppose terrorism and that the terrorists wives and children are a good representation of what the majority of Muslims (You should take issue with the government over that, not Muslims)"  , I felt that my rant actually suggested that I did in fact take issue with my government. I must appologise for the stupid internet clip at the end of my post, it was in bad taste and surely not funny. I DO realise that all Muslims could not possibly be terrorists or support such a thing. Yes, it probably is the media that fails to show that Muslims do in fact speak out against extremism. I certainly don't buy into the widely held notion that only Muslims are terrorists either, in one of your posts you mentioned "IF you believe everything the media tells you, you're an idiot." Except when it comes time to blame the brown guy, then the only thing we know about the Middle east is what we see on CNN", sure, if all you watched was CNN or FOX! If you prefer the BBC, which I do, then you can get a completely different slant on things - CNN/FOX favours the Israely side, BBC is hyper-critical of Israel's 'defense' tactics. It is just hard to ignore  pictures of school children shot in the back while escaping their captors. Those images were still burning in my mind, I suppose I was just venting. I know this went way off topic, but my hat is off to you for speaking out against stereotypes and I suppose I stand corrected! I should have said "the extremist problem", certainly not "the Muslim problem".
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Offline pbi

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2004, 23:20:11 »
Gozonuts: I suspect that we could draw up a similarly brutal list of other atrocities, with the final notation being "Irish Catholics between the ages of 17 and 40". If we apply your rationale, we would treat all Catholics (the majority denomination in Canada...) like IRA or INLA types.

Cheers.
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2004, 23:31:58 »
Hats off to everyone on the thread for the cool tempermant thusfar

Offline TR

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2004, 08:52:39 »
Fact of the matter is I do speak out against them, so in that sense, I suppose I'm not with them. That way of discerning terrorists from regular Ahmed down the street is deeply flawed. There are rallies, Muslims are for peace, but you will not see them on CNN. I rarely bring up the media, mainly because I despise it (CNN, Al-Jaz, Fox, you name it) They are not the cause of all Muslim's problems, but they are keeping the divide between the West and the East nice and wide. I'm doing my part, There are literally, thousands of young Muslims my age doing the same, fact of the matter is, you will never see us on TV..you will never read about us in the news. It's a hard concept for someone from the west to grasp, but imagine if the only news you ever saw about America was about people like Ted Bundy and Ted Kazynski.



Have you ever contacted a local news outlet about maybe doing an interveiw or story about what you do. Go out and preach your view to the media and see if you get any intrest there. Have you tried? If you sit and hope that some one will take notice of your rational teachings I truley beleive that no one outside this thresd will hear what you have to say. Media doesn't seem to search out the feel good stories but will cover them if it is brought to their attention. Mayby you should try. Break the barrier.

Offline Bograt

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2004, 09:29:22 »
Welcome to the new reality. No longer are we facing threats from states with capitals. The new reality is the "stateless" threat- emerging from the ghettos, shanty towns and suburbs. While traditional threats are still present (i.e Iran, North Korea, China) the "clear and ever present danger" is the ethereal force. Fundraising at community bingo games, training in desert camps of sympathizing nations, and unfortunately killing under their banner. I think what is immediately lost is the fact that 900 million people consider themselves Muslim.

From Indonesia to the Middle east to the family down the street, Muslims are trying to do what normal people do. Make sure their bills are paid, family is safe and their lives are long. It is natural for disenfranchised segments of populations to view their current socio-economic position as a result of "Zionist or western or -insert your cause here-" and not as the result of their own corrupt governments. It is easy for them to be convinced by "perfume spitting monsters" to take up arms and set them selves on fire.

I think it is okay to say that they are muslim terrorists, because that is what they are- that is the banner the choose to fight under. I am also sharpe enough to know that they are not muslims- in fact they are not even human beings. They are killers, liars, theives, butchers, hypocrites, bastards, monters - I can go on.

I sometimes wonder if God is going to kick all our arses when we die for the things we have done in his name.
Hannah and Robbie's Dad