Author Topic: If America adopts Canada's health care system  (Read 154418 times)

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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2007, 15:06:12 »
Yup, isn't it nice to have a job that will still pay you as you wait to get 'fixed'.......most do not.
And with that reasoning they wouldn't have the $28,000 to pay for it either.
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Offline geo

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2007, 15:15:23 »
Flip,
Wishes much appreceated.
"sister sitrep"
From Montreal, sister consulted MDs in Montreal, Boston & NewYork
was advised that Montreal Neurological has cutting edge equipment & MDs on leading edge of treatment for condition.
Sooo.... back to Montreal & has started treatment
Chemo for the last 3 weeks + Radiation treatment for the last one... this is expected to continue thru to early January.

Excluding the trips to the US, all this has been paid for by Quebec Medicare.
No line jumping, no influence peddling, nada....

All things being equal in the world, my sister will pull thru and be +/- "as good as new" in 2008
Chimo!

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2007, 15:59:42 »
Flip, right on .
+1

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2007, 17:01:39 »
And with that reasoning they wouldn't have the $28,000 to pay for it either.

I wouldn't be too sure of that...................maybe smart people invest that money every year that they don't pay in taxes instead of crying for big brother to bale them out.
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Offline Bane

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2007, 17:54:20 »
            I'll keep my 'communist' public system thanks very much.  It might suck in a thousand different ways, but on principle alone I prefer it.  I am also perfectly happy with half of my substantial tax bill going to the health care system.  Private health insurers make more money the less care they provide. If they can shave down the amount of coverage (via denial of benefits, legal action or policy technicallity) there is a strong incentive for them to do so.  Not that all companies do this, but the bottom line is the bottom line. Compaines exist to make money, not anything else.  Obviously there is a role, an important one, for private business to play in health care and in society. Each society must choose in this case whether it prefers the vast benefits to helping the aggregate, at a substantial cost I might add, or prefer the liberty of the individual over society, also at substantial cost but of a very different sort.  Could Canada's system be improved, 100% it could, there is lots of room for improvement.  The U.S., however, is need of a health care revolution.



An interesting photo essay.  I've never needed health care in extremely remote or areas in Canada, we could have clinics like this running also, I really don't know.  But this is in the middle of Virginia.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/11/18/magazine/20071118_HEALTHCARE_SLIDESHOW_index.html
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Offline Flip

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2007, 19:17:22 »
No doubt about it!

Quote
The U.S., however, is need of a health care revolution.

" Socialized medicine" is one the ugliest misnomers that exist.
While health care workers agree that they carry a sacred trust,
There's lot's of opportunity in the public system for profit.
If it was approached less as an industry and more like an
institution, like national defense, things could get sorted out.
Delays and wait times are largely a figment of over management.
Perhaps analagous to civilian oversight?

What is clear in this country - Private vs. public is the wrong
question to the wrong answer.




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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2007, 20:26:06 »
Health care workers do not carry a sacred trust.  If people didn't make it into med school because daddy was a doctor, and I didn't know any workers who are pretty much just there for the money, then I might concede it's a sacred trust.  It's a business.  Treat it like one.
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Offline Bane

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2007, 20:37:52 »
The individual workers might not carry a sacred trust, but the system does. Just like the CF, some may be there just because its a job and some money in the pocket, or for other direct personal benefits; some might get more advancement on account of personal connections, but does that make it just a 'military business' and nothing more? What about the federal government, some are surely there for perks alone, but does that mean that it carrys no roll beyond captial accumulation?
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2007, 00:28:57 »
I wouldn't be too sure of that...................maybe smart people invest that money every year that they don't pay in taxes instead of crying for big brother to bale them out.
Or perhaps some people can't save their money to invest because they have nothing left after they pay the bills and feed themselves.  Must be nice to live in your world where everyone has had the opportunity to put money away while meeting their other financial obligations as well as their own basic needs.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2007, 10:56:20 »
Compaines exist to make money, not anything else.  Obviously there is a role, an important one, for private business to play in health care and in society. Each society must choose in this case whether it prefers the vast benefits to helping the aggregate, at a substantial cost I might add, or prefer the liberty of the individual over society, also at substantial cost but of a very different sort.  Could Canada's system be improved, 100% it could, there is lots of room for improvement.

In the competitive market, "companies" have to deliver the best combination of cost and quality, while maximizing quantity, or be replaced by a better provider.  There is no such incentive to improve quality or quantity, or reduce costs, in the public system: only to 'justify' budgets.  One is left to rely solely on the supposed wisdom and benevolence of industry and politicians.   ::)
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2007, 12:42:35 »
>but the system does

The "system" is just the sum of its own legislative and administrative overhead and service delivery mechanisms.  If the "sacred trust" (the "system") vanished tomorrow, profit-seekers would step in to fill the vacuum.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Offline Bane

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2007, 12:57:49 »
I_am_John_ Galt:   
        First, I did point out that competitive markets and private firms have an important role to play in health care and society; "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest."  Secondly, this notion that 'competitive markets' always produce, or gravitate towards, the most beneficial outcomes for society is one of the biggest fallacies of neo-classical economics.  Imagine GE was your health care provider, how responsive to a slight shift in the 'market winds' is a 3/4 trillion dollar company going to be?  Aside from the fact that the neo-classical model says that markets favour smaller, independent firms that cannot, individually, distort the market.  Most major industries have only 3 or 4 big players, quasi-monopolies.   
         I don't want to get into a giant essay about this to take the thread way off track, but there was a good solid reasons for the great backlash against un-regulated market capitalism to begin in the 19th century, and why our more modern regulated capitalism is much more palatable and tends to work 'better' for society.  You also malign government, suggesting that their lack of competitive impulse makes them 'slack and idol', yet they must remain responsive to the electorate, and some government departments are run very well.  So does everybody make a reasonable effort to help their neighbour, thus helping to alleviate some inequality? And yes, with a bigger tax bill  Or do we assume and pretend that people are individual particles, ‘homo economicus’, rational actors that aren’t steeped it a dense network of social connections, but people that make rational choices at every turn with perfect information for balanced, mutually beneficial, outcomes?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 13:04:04 by Bane »
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Online tomahawk6

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2007, 13:24:56 »
The biggest obstacles to HillaryCare are the American voter and money. The American voter see's how screwed up our Social Security system is and adding a national healthcare program will just follow down that same path. A national healthcare program will not be free it will be paid for by higher taxes at a time that state and local governments are increasing sales taxes/property taxes/personal income taxes. Historically Americans have gotten their healthcare benefits from their employer. The examples of European national healthcare and Canada actually make the case against national healthcare. High personal taxes and increasing healthcare costs take up huge chunks of the national budgets of these countries which has seen a shift from national defense to healthcare/social security. Every nation has an obligation to protect their citizens from foreign attack. These governments dont have an obligation to actually "take care" of their citizens. What ever happened to the individual's responsibility to provide for his own retirement/healthcare ? If the nations of Europe wanted to be able to compete with the US economically they would privatize national healthcare and reduce taxes. Shift the burden back to individuals and the employer. They could retain their senior citizen benefits pension/healthcare.

Offline Otto Fest

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2007, 13:26:20 »
As members of the military we are in a favourable position.  Whenever we are referred for a procedure - I just had MRIs done for my knees - we go to the front of the line.  Most medical facilities have a set annual budget and therefore do ration care.  When we show up with a military referral it's like cash in hand.  Although the procedure may be completed at midnight, we free up surplus capacity.   It's not uncommon for surgeons and diagnostic equipment to be working at 50-60% efficiency.

On another note, my wife will shortly be employed in the US as a skilled manager.  Both she and I will be FULLY covered under health care plans in the US and Canada.  It will be interesting; we asked questions of immigration lawyers that they could not answer... and $400/hr to boot.  (For example, if I move to the US will by tax free disability pension be taxable in the US? - no answer).

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Offline Flip

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2007, 13:29:16 »
In Edmonton we have excellent health care and oddly, two systems.

The UofA health group that also takes care of education and research,
and the Caritas Health group that owes it's beginning to the Catholic Church.
The differences in these two groups is remarkable.  While the UofA health group
enjoys far greater resources their focus is somewhat diluted.  Caritas patients
benefit from a different attitude and greater focus on their individual needs.

All other conditions being equal - the difference is the management.  
More doctors in the Caritas example.

Hospitals are only a fraction of the health care system, however.
I know a physician who opted not to have an office or staff.
The money he saved allowed him to provide far superior care to his
few patients.  I also note that many people prefer female doctors.
This is not because their fingers are smaller. ;)
This appears to be a result of being motivated differently than many
of their male counterparts.

I am fortunate to have known a great many doctors who take their
obligation to society so very seriously.  This obligation is what drives them
to do research, attend hopeless cases, do international aid work etc.etc.
This is why our healthcare system works.

If you want a system that exists as a profit centre.  Our heathcare system
as we know it - will not work.  This why the suits up in the big offices
have done so much damage in the last generation.
 
One last anecdote as evidence.

I see my doctor every three monthes or so.  I know
that he knows me.  I suggest you all do the same.

I see my dentist only when something hurts.  This is stupid
But, it's all I can afford.

Which is better?






 
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Offline Bane

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2007, 13:39:20 »
Every nation has an obligation to protect their citizens from foreign attack. These governments dont have an obligation to actually "take care" of their citizens.
I don't even know what to say to that...


What ever happened to the individual's responsibility to provide for his own retirement/healthcare ?
Many live pay check to pay check, or worse, in the biggest economy in the world. And the reality is is that many can't provide for their own care. It is not just personal defects that make the poor.
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Offline Flip

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2007, 13:47:42 »
P.S.  I failed to make my point in my last post.

The delivery of healthcare matters.

The current administration is what we do a lot less of.
Administration and overhead are where the money goes anyway.
This is what has grown the most in the last few years.

Public vs. private is the wrong question.
How do we fix the problems we have?
How can the Americans, with a totally different system fix their problems.

The Americans spend 10 times the amount we do on admin. and
overhead because it's all done by insurance ,HMO and healthcare
companies.  Apply that money instead to delivery of service........
Then Americans will have healthcare.  All Americans.





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Online tomahawk6

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2007, 14:32:29 »
Otto your benfit may indeed be taxable. Best bet would be to talk to a tax professional when you get to the US.

Quote
The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) considers disability benefits under your employer sponsored plan a continuation of your salary; better known as a Third Party Sick Pay plan. Whether your disability benefits are taxable depends on your level of premium contribution. In general, if you pay 100% of the premium for your coverage with post-tax dollars, your disability benefits are tax-free. If your employer pays 100% of the premium, benefits are taxable. If you and your employer each pay a share of the premium, benefits are taxed proportionally based on applicable IRS rulings. Each claim is unique and your taxability will be dependant on the information provided to us by your employer at the time your claim is submitted

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15a.pdf; pg.13, Section 6: Third Party Sick Pay

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2007, 15:23:57 »
Or perhaps some people can't save their money to invest because they have nothing left after they pay the bills and feed themselves.  Must be nice to live in your world where everyone has had the opportunity to put money away while meeting their other financial obligations as well as their own basic needs.

If I were paying half the taxes I was now that might actually be possible.....
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2007, 17:21:46 »
The Americans spend 10 times the amount we do on admin. and overhead because it's all done by insurance ,HMO and healthcare companies.  Apply that money instead to delivery of service........

Actually the numbers are more like 31% of US health care spending on administration vice 17% for Canada.  (those figures from a 2003 study)

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2007, 19:46:11 »
People don't have to make rational choices or be perfectly informed for the free market to still provide the most beneficial outcome, because the benefit of an exchange is only the recipient's to judge.  The measure of market success isn't what you or a group which thinks like you decide others should have; it's what others decide for themselves they should have.  The only thing intervention has the potential to do is improve economic efficiency - not the same thing as benefit - but the intervenors likewise lack information and are burdened by their own biases and political obligations and dogma and extended decision cycles which tend to make interventions even worse.

All Americans do have access to health care; not all Americans have health insurance (many by choice) or access to all the health care they might like.  But, with respect to the latter, neither do we.

People who live paycheque to paycheque are simply not planning their finances well.  2 weeks out of 52 is a little under 4%.  Set aside 4% of your gross pay each year for 6 years and you will have more than a 3-month cushion of the expenses you pay out of your after-tax income.
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Offline Bane

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2007, 20:26:07 »
People who live paycheque to paycheque are simply not planning their finances well.  2 weeks out of 52 is a little under 4%.  Set aside 4% of your gross pay each year for 6 years and you will have more than a 3-month cushion of the expenses you pay out of your after-tax income.
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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2007, 20:41:30 »
::)

Care to elaborate on you  ::) or are you just going to leave it at that ?


Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2007, 20:44:43 »
I think he means that the only thing more diverse then people are their finances and its a little to easy to say a person should simply do this and they will be fine as EVERY family and their personal finances are different.  Kids, medical bills, age, income etc.
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Offline Bane

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Re: If America adopts Canada's health care system
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2007, 20:48:56 »
What Quagmire said.

I thought it was just a little bit ignorant on the subject of poverty.
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