Author Topic: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"  (Read 25911 times)

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Offline recceguy

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2009, 14:58:02 »
Well, how about not meddling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.

So, we should stand idly by while women and children are killed, maimed and their human rights denied while being treated as slaves by uneducated religious cultural fanatics? How arrogant of you, to think that you hold such a position in the world society, that you can ignore human suffering, but I see your signature line sums you up pretty well.

Sorry, the sky is blue in the world I inhabit, and if, as your profile suggests, you are in the recruiting phase, you best read this lesson On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs before you engage, with us, in this honourable profession of ours.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 15:31:47 by recceguy »
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2009, 15:17:07 »
Well, how about not meddeling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.

And to think you want to be a Member, and artillery at that.

I've said enough   ::) (gags)

Edits to say 'great attitude'.

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2009, 15:26:06 »
Well, how about not meddeling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.

Itr becomes my business, Canadian society's business and, as a matter of law, the Queen's business when someone's unacceptable cultural proclivity bumps into the rights and freedoms of people in Canada. No one has any right to kill someone for their misconceived barbaric notion of honour. Our culture, which is vastly superior to any and all that tolerate "honour killings" and slavery, will not, must not tolerate it.

I have pointed out before that "honour killings" are not a religious issue. There is no religious "justification" for them - anyone who tries to argue for that case, based on any of the "great religions," is an ignorant fool - even if they are priest, rabbi or iman.

"Honour killings" are barbaric; those who do them are barbarians; their cultures do not belong and must not be allowed to take root in a civilized place like Canada.
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Offline templeton peck

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2009, 16:30:14 »
And to think you want to be a Member, and artillery at that.

I've said enough   ::) (gags)

Edits to say 'great attitude'.

OWDU
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Very sorry to have an opinion different from yours downunder! I am getting the impression that an army.ca poster with a differing opinion from the rest of the herd has less freedom of speech than a woman Afghanistan, geez!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 16:41:50 by templeton peck »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2009, 16:49:57 »
Very sorry to have an opinion different from yours downunder! I am getting the impression that an army.ca poster with a differing opinion from the rest of the herd has less freedom of speech than a woman Afghanistan, geez!

You can have any opinion you want as long as you can morally defend it. Please remember the site you are posting on, and be prepared to defend any post you make. Please also respect that this site is full of sheepdogs (you read that link didn't you?) and that we find it hard to abide with those that would sit on the sidelines and oppose our logic of protection.

Lastly, please don't demean those Afghan women, whom you refuse to acknowledge or defend, by comparing them to your own personal plight.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2009, 16:51:28 »
Since the topic under discussion has devolved into trading of insults between members, this thread is locked.  It may be reopened by staff for the addition of factual content based on the original news story.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2012, 14:38:16 »
Article Link

Shafia jury finds all guilty

A Montreal couple and their son were all convicted Sunday of first-degree murder in the deaths of four family members.
 
Mohammad Shafia, his wife Tooba Yahya and their son Hamed had pleaded not guilty.

They were accused of killing Hamed's three sisters and their father's childless first wife in a polygamous marriage.
 
The bodies of Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti Shafia, 13, along with Rona Mohammad Amir, 50, were found dead in the family’s Nissan, submerged in the Rideau Canal on June 30, 2009.
 
The verdict came after about 15 hours of deliberations, less than 48 hours after they were first charged by the judge in the case, Justice Robert Maranger.
 
They were each handed an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years.

'Twisted notion of honour'
Meranger said it is difficult to imagine a more "heinous crime" than two parents convicted of killing three of their own daughters for "an apparent notion of honour that has absolutely no place in any civilized society."
 
"The apparent reason behind these cold shameful murders was that four (victims) offended your twisted notion of honour," the judge said.
 
Each of the Shafia family members addressed the court, denying their invovlment. Hamed said in English, "I did not drown my sisters anywhere, while Yahya said "I am not a murderer." Her husband echoed that, with "I did not commit any murder."
 
One of the female jurors started crying after the verdict was read, wiping her eyes. Hamed grabbed a hold of the prisoners' box for support, his parents rubbing his back as each juror affirmed that guilt was their verdict.
 
To return that verdict of first-degree murder, the jury had to be satisfied with six elements beyond a reasonable doubt including, that the accused caused the death of the victims, the accused caused the deaths unlawfully, the accused had the state of mind required for to commit murder and that the murders were planned and deliberate.

Three-month trial
During the nearly three-month-long trial, the Crown maintained the family road trip was part of a plot to kill the four because they had tainted the family’s honour. The Crown alleged the family's patriarch was upset that his two eldest daughters wanted boyfriends, betraying his traditional Afghan values.
 
The Shafias moved to Canada in 2007. They fled their native Afghanistan more than 15 years earlier and had lived in Dubai and Australia before moving the family to Montreal and applied for citizenship.
 
At the time of the deaths, they were all permanent residents, except for Amir Amir who had only a visitors’ visa.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2012, 14:45:59 »
Folks,
lets start this topic off right. I'm sure we can all agree on what should be done to these folks but this is not a forum for vengeance or just for spouting off hatred.

If there is to be a discussion, then it will be about the TOPIC.

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Offline SevenSixTwo

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2012, 14:56:11 »
I don't particularily like talking about court trials/decision etc because no matter what on a forum:

No one knows the true facts and evidence of the trial

People come up with their own assumptions and theories

People disagree or agree with outcomes of trials without interior knowledge of the trial


I am not talking about just this court case but all of them.

That's why I am steering clear.

Offline recceguy

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2012, 14:59:38 »
The jury got it right. Guilty of Honour Killings First Degree Murder
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2012, 18:31:44 »
Justice has been done.

Our job is to educate Canadians that this crime will not be tolerated.
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Offline GAP

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2012, 18:36:36 »
Now for the much larger problem...................losing the attitude that "women are property"............That's a far, far larger problem than honor killings....
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2012, 18:50:13 »
Now for the much larger problem...................losing the attitude that "women are property"............That's a far, far larger problem than honor killings....

Agreed. Start with mandatory citizenship classes for all immigrants and some Canadians.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2012, 20:56:01 »
Agreed. Start with mandatory citizenship classes for all immigrants and some Canadians.

Add mandatory language classes to that.
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Offline GD

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2012, 21:17:00 »
Would any of that change their ideas,culture and beliefs?


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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2012, 21:26:49 »
Would any of that change their ideas,culture and beliefs?



Maybe not right away, but over a generation...
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2012, 06:40:33 »
I'm very happy to see the jury was not suckered into the BS realm the defence was trying to weave.  It's a good verdict and hopefully will send a message to those others out there who have an evil twisted idea of what honour is all about.  I do wonder how the general population inside will warm to them all.  And kudos to all the good work done by the police, crowns and everyone else who made this case successful.   :salute:

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2012, 08:08:58 »
.  I do wonder how the general population inside will warm to them all. 


They are pariahs already I am guessing. I imagine they are already in protective custody, and most likely (If I were the Superintendent of the jail they were in) on a suicide watch.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2012, 13:00:32 »
Quote

I don't particularily like talking about court trials/decision etc because no matter what on a forum:

No one knows the true facts and evidence of the trial

People come up with their own assumptions and theories

People disagree or agree with outcomes of trials without interior knowledge of the trial

I totally agree there. I am glad that there is a jury there to make these decisions. I have been watching the case on news, and could not decide from what I read one way or the other. My gut kept telling me that something did not add up on either side of the case. I just have to trust that the jury came to the right decision.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2012, 13:17:12 »
I found it very interesting last night, as I was watching the news, they had an interview with a member of the Muslim Association of Canada, and her response to the idea of honor killings and Islam. She thought that immigrants coming into Canada should learn Canadian culture and should adapt to Canadian ways. Her contention was that those who did not want to conform or accept the "Canadian" Muslim, then they should "go back to the country they came from." These ideas are not that of Islamic faith, but of barbarians and old world thinkers. I thought it was interesting to hear such a strong opinion from someone of the Muslim culture explaining this. I guess there comes a time when you get sick of these people representing you in the world. One can only hope that something positive can come out of this tragedy, rather than the rest of the country and world simply chalking it up to "the Muslims" again.

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2012, 13:32:24 »
There is nothing inherently Muslim about honour killings; they are a problem in several different religions - including some parts of Christendom. They, honour killings, are a purely cultural phenomenon and, as such, they are problematical throughout Northern Africa, the Middle East, and West and South Asia,including India. Where there are large migrant populations from those regions they are also problems for the new host nations, like Australia, Britain and Canada.
 
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2012, 14:13:29 »
They are pariahs already I am guessing. I imagine they are already in protective custody, and most likely (If I were the Superintendent of the jail they were in) on a suicide watch.
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One hopes, but I was listening to a CBC Radio call-in on this today, and one gentleman who helps folks dealing with such situations says he's taken calls from men, senior professionals in this country, who mainly feel pressure from others within their community to "take care" of such honour issues.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2012, 14:54:07 »
I totally agree there. I am glad that there is a jury there to make these decisions. I have been watching the case on news, and could not decide from what I read one way or the other. My gut kept telling me that something did not add up on either side of the case. I just have to trust that the jury came to the right decision.

That probably comes from being so used to people being caught outright in the act or our exposure to Law & Order-type shows where the prosecution is able to find that 1 piece of evidence that will convict the accused without a doubt.

In this case it was a matter of a bunch of little things that, alone, caused the gut feeling but, together, added to the jury finding the accused guilty.

Needless to say, this will probably end up being a made-for-tv movie some time in the near future.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2012, 19:18:44 »
And I hope the term "Honour killing" is forever struck from the vocabulary; this is one of the sickest and most cowardly crimes imaginable.

Update:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=post;msg=1109767;topic=87856.50

Quote
Shafia lawyers expected to appeal murder conviction

CTVNews.ca Staff

Date: Mon. Jan. 30 2012 9:01 AM ET

The lawyers of a Montreal couple and their son who were convicted on Sunday of murdering four female relatives are expected to appeal the decision.

A jury found Mohammad Shafia, 58, his wife Tooba Yahya, 42, and their son Hamed, 21, each guilty of four counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Shafia's three teenaged daughters and his first wife.

A first-degree murder conviction carries an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years.

Sisters Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, along with Shafia's other wife Rona Amir Mohammad, 52, were found dead on June 30, 2009 in a car at the bottom of a canal in Kingston, Ont.

On Sunday, after 15 hours of deliberation following the 10-week trial, jurors handed down their verdict.

"It was a very dramatic sceene inside the courtroom of course when the jurors stood up and said that all three accused were to be found guilty on all counts," said CTV's Montreal Bureau Chief Genevieve Beauchemin.

"Both the accused at the time -- now the convicted killers -- and jurors were very emotional."

In a rare move the defence lawyer asked each juror to stand up and say whether they agreed with the verdict. One female member of the jury said she did, but then sat down and immediately burst into tears, Beauchemin told CTV's Canada AM on Monday.

When asked by the judge whether they had anything to say, Mohammad, Tooba and Hamed all maintained their innocence -- a stance they took throughout the trial.

"We are not criminal, we are not murderers, we didn't commit the murder and this is unjust," Mohammad Shafia told the court through a translator.

"Your honourable justice, this is not just," Yahya said, also through an interpreter. "I am not a murderer, and I am a mother -- a mother!"

Hamed addressed the judge in English, saying: "Sir, I did not drown my sisters anywhere."

Hamed also leaned forward when the verdict was read, apparently upset, while his parents rubbed his back in an attempt to console their son.

After the verdicts were read out the crowd made its way outside to line up near a fence to catch one last glimpse of the convicted killers before they were taken away.

As Mohammad Shafia was led out, he loudly said: "Wrong," apparently in reference to the verdict.

Outside the courtroom, prosecutor Gerard Laarhuis said it was a good day for Canadian justice but also a sad day because it involved the death of four women.

"This jury found that four strong, viviacious and freedom-loving women were murdered by their own family in the most troubling of circumstances," he said.

Some onlookers in a crowd on the court steps cheered when Laarhuis spoke while others heckled the prosecutor.

"This verdict sends a very clear message about our Canadian values and the core principles of a free and democratic society that all Canadians enjoy and even visitors to Canada enjoy," Laarhuis said.

Also speaking outside the court, Shafia's lawyer Peter Kemp said he believes the jury was swayed by wiretap conversations in which his client called his dead daughters whores.

"He wasn't convicted for what he did," Kemp said. "He was convicted for what he said."

Hamed's lawyer, Patrick McCann, said his client will appeal. He believes Hamed's parents will do the same.

From the start of the trial in October, prosecutors argued these were "honour killings" -- the Afghan-Canadian family's answer to the young sisters' perceived shameful behaviour.

"It is difficult to conceive of a more despicable, more heinous, more honourless crime," Justice Robert Maranger said in court after the verdict was delivered Sunday.

"The apparent reason behind these cold-blooded, shameful murders was that the four completely innocent victims offended your completely twisted concept of honour...that has absolutely no place in any civilized society."

Prosecutors had argued that the young Shafia sisters had shamed the conservative Afghan family -- and especially its patriarch -- by wearing revealing clothing, refusing to don hijabs and having boyfriends.

The jury heard that Zainab had previously run away from home and was briefly married to a Pakistani man Shafia did not approve of. The marriage was annulled within 24 hours.

Sahar also had a forbidden boyfriend, while the youngest of the three, Geeti, told her teachers she wanted to be placed in foster care. Mohammad Shafia's first, infertile, wife had protected the girls, especially Sahar, whom she had been raising as her own, court heard.

Jurors reached the guilty verdict after a 10-week trial, 58 witnesses and 15 hours of deliberations.

Court also heard damning wiretapped conversations between the accused in which, at one point, Shafia said of his dead daughters: "God's curse on them … May the devil crap on their graves."

Teachers, child protection workers and police officers testified about reports from the girls that they were afraid of their father and brother and wanted to run away from home.

The Crown painted a picture of a highly dysfunctional polygamous family, with Shafia and Hamed exerting control over female members of the household and the two wives fighting for Shafia's affections.

Yahya and Shafia refuted the Crown's theory and evidence, saying they loved their children and would have never killed them. In interviews with police and on the stand, the couple maintained the deaths were a tragic accident.

Beauchemin said there will be no victim impact statement following the trial. She said that may be because relatives stood by the accused throughout the trial.

"Perhaps that's part of the issue here or perhaps simply all those people felt everything that needed to be said...had been said during the trial," Beauchemin said.

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120130/shafia-verdict-follow-120130/#ixzz1l0IXB0Y5

Not one of their relatives stood for these girls and their mother? How sad indeed...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 22:46:14 by Thucydides »
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