Author Topic: Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback  (Read 279240 times)

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Offline willellis

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Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback
« on: February 20, 2011, 10:55:33 »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12517327

A link to the BBC report and vid. Scary stuff.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 23:40:47 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 12:20:53 »
A link to the BBC report and vid. Scary stuff.
Why "scary"?
I even read works I disagree with;  life outside  an ideological echo chamber.

Offline GAP

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 12:59:11 »
I don't see it being scary.....did we all think there would be no pushback from some of the regimes...?

In fact, I'm amazed there hasn't been more severe pushback....as in roundups during the night, assassinations, outright blasting away to send a clear message. I'm still waiting for it....
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Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 13:04:05 »
 200 people killed by their government. Open gunfire in the streets. A funeral being shot up. Scary stuff in my books. Not to mention this only ads to the already unstable regions of the Middle East.  This is old news so to speak, but the story is just another reminder as to how terrible that part of the world is right now.

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 13:32:13 »
Yes, what GAP said.

Gaddafi isn't Ben Ali or Mubarak; he has never displayed qualms about using force against his opponents. Given recent events in Tunisia and Egypt it would be stupid to expect Gaddafi to hesitate in quelling any protests or dispersing large gatherings with deadly force.....no matter what some agitator tells you on Twitter.
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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 15:04:42 »
  as to how terrible that part of the world is right now.

Right now ??

Its been like this for decades...........and then some.

Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 15:11:56 »
Yeah, and right now it is terrible. I never said it's only bad now.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 15:19:25 by willellis »

aesop081

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 15:20:06 »
Nice contribution to the topic...

humm....ok......

I do not find this scary either and i as well find it rather expected. I wont be surprised if there is more puchback in other countries.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 15:24:15 by CDN Aviator »

Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 15:21:14 »
Yeah, sorry bout that. I edited my comment.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 15:24:24 by willellis »

Offline 57Chevy

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 14:19:47 »
Libya warplanes bombing Tripoli: Resident

LONDON - Libyan warplanes were bombing indiscriminately across Tripoli on Monday, a resident of the Libyan capital told al Jazeera television in a live broadcast.

"What we are witnessing today is unimaginable. Warplanes and helicopters are indiscriminately bombing one area after another. There are many, many dead," Adel Mohamed Saleh said. Saleh, who called himself a political activist, said the bombings had initially targeted a funeral procession. "Our people are dying. It is the policy of scorched earth." he said. "Every 20 minutes they are bombing."

Asked if the attacks were still happening he said: "It is continuing, it is continuing. Anyone who moves, even if they are in their car they will hit you."

There was no independent verification of the report but Fathi al-Warfali, the Libyan activist who heads the Swiss-based Libyan Committee for Truth and Justice, who was taking part in a protest outside UN European headquarters in Geneva said he had heard the same reports.

"Military planes are attacking civilians, protesters in Tripoli now. The civilians are frightened. Where is the United Nations, where is Amnesty International?" al-Warfali told Reuters.
                           (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)
Photo:
A Libyan airforce pilot walks next to his Mirage F1 fighter jet after landing at Malta International Airport outside Valletta February 21, 2011. Two Libyan fighter jets and two civilian helicopters landed unexpectedly in Malta on Monday, witnesses said. The office of Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi said it was not clear whether the two fighter pilots intended to ask for asylum. They initially had asked to refuel, it said.
Photograph by: Darrin Zammit Lupi, Reuters




Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 14:51:38 »
Wow. I wonder what kind of response this is going to call for from the UN.

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 15:03:39 »
Wow. I wonder what kind of response this is going to call for from the UN.
I wonder too.    :nod:
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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 15:06:57 »
Wow. I wonder what kind of response this is going to call for from the UN.

 ::)  :facepalm:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,98663.msg1020306.html#new

Start at post #228.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 15:07:07 »
Looks like ground to air rocket pods slung under the wings. That lends some potential credence to the claims of being ordered to bomb protesters...
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Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2011, 15:27:11 »
Looks like ground to air air-to-ground rocket pods slung under the wings. That lends some potential credence to the claims of being ordered to bomb protesters...

Or, it leads credence to an earlier BBC report (sorry, I don't have access to the link here) saying "Moammar Gadhafi has ordered the Libyan air force to fire on other military installations in order to ensure that the weaponry inside the installations does not fall into the hands of protesters."

Conversely, it also leads credence a view that there is a growing split within Libya's armed forces, with one faction supporting Gaddafi son Seif al-Islam (heard giving a rambling speech last night on al Jazeera) and the other faction supporting another brother, and National Security Adviser, Mutaasim. The fighter-bomber attacks and naval gunfire - not reported here - are potentially one military faction firing upon another.


Personally, I'm hesitant to make any sweeping judgments based on early reporting of a crisis -- more so, when the two sources quoted by name are self-identified as "a political activist" and a "Libyan activist ...taking part in a protest outside UN European headquarters in Geneva [who] said he had heard the same reports."



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Offline 57Chevy

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 16:29:39 »
Tripoli <----link
Modified version from the Ethiopian News and Opinion Journal
Military planes fire at civilian protesters in Libya
see full article at link
---
---
* In signs of disagreement inside Libya’s ruling elite, the justice minister resigned in protest at the “excessive use of violence” against protesters. In India, Libya’s ambassador said he was resigning in protest at the violent crackdown.

* An international coalition of 70 rights groups today urged world powers and UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to suspend Libya from its membership on the UN Human Rights Council, and to convene the UN Security Council to protect Libyan civilians from “crimes against humanity.”

The joint statement says that the widespread atrocities committed by Libya against its own people are “particularly odious” actions that amount to “crimes against humanity,” requiring member states to take action through the Security Council under the responsibility to protect doctrine. The letter was sent today to UN chief Ban Ki-moon; EU foreign minister Catherine Ashton; the Security Council representatives from the US, France, and the UK; and to the Human Rights Council delegates from the US and Hungary, which chairs the European Union.

The appeal calls for an emergency session of the Human Rights Council to suspend Libya’s membership, and to dispatch an urgent fact-finding team to the country.

“The muted response of the US and the EU to the Libyan atrocities is not only a let-down to the many Libyans risking their lives for freedom, but a shirking of their obligations, as members of the Security Council and the Human Rights Council, to protect peace and human rights, and to prevent war crimes,” said Hillel Neuer, executive director of UN Watch, and an international lawyer who represents Libyan torture victims.

“Baroness Ashton’s call for Libyan forces to exercise ‘restraint’ is entirely inappropriate. We’re dealing with the deliberate murder and massacre of hundreds of peaceful protesters. By signaling diplomatic caution in the face of a bloodbath — instead of urgency and action — the EU is failing the victims. It’s time for basic human rights to come before oil,” said Neuer.

“The EU should also urge the UN and the International Committee of the Red Cross to send urgently-needed medical supplies into Libya, particularly for hospitals in Benghazi. Ashton should attempt to visit Libya after her trip to Cairo tomorrow.” Attempts were made from Egypt to send urgent medical supplies to Libya, but the international community needs to step in, said Neuer.

Urgent Appeal to Stop Atrocities in Libya

We, the undersigned non-governmental, human rights, and humanitarian organizations, urge you to mobilize the United Nations and the international community and take immediate action to halt the mass atrocities now being perpetrated by the Libyan government against its own people. The inexcusable silence cannot continue.

As you know, in the past several days, Colonel Moammar Gadhafi’s forces are estimated to have deliberately killed hundreds of peaceful protesters and innocent bystanders across the country. In the city of Benghazi alone, one doctor reported seeing at least 200 dead bodies. Witnesses report that a mixture of special commandos, foreign mercenaries and regime loyalists have attacked demonstrators with knives, assault rifles and heavy-caliber weapons.

Snipers are shooting peaceful protesters. Artillery and helicopter gunships have been used against crowds of demonstrators. Thugs armed with hammers and swords attacked families in their homes. Hospital officials report numerous victims shot in the head and chest, and one struck on the head by an anti-aircraft missile. Tanks are reported to be on the streets and crushing innocent bystanders. Witnesses report that mercenaries are shooting indiscriminately from helicopters and from the top of roofs. Women and children were seen jumping off Giuliana Bridge in Benghazi to escape. Many of them were killed by the impact of hitting the water, while others were drowned. The Libyan regime is seeking to hide all of these crimes by shutting off contact with the outside world. Foreign journalists have been refused entry. Internet and phone lines have been cut or disrupted.

There is no question here about intent. The government media has published open threats, promising that demonstrators would meet a “violent and thunderous response.”

Accordingly, the government of Libya is committing gross and systematic violations of the right to life as guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Citizens seeking to exercise their rights to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly are being massacred by the government.

Moreover, the government of Libya is committing crimes against humanity, as defined by the Explanatory Memorandum to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The Libyan government’s mass killing of innocent civilians amount to particularly odious offences which constitute a serious attack on human dignity. As confirmed by numerous oral and video testimonies gathered by human rights organizations and news agencies, the Libyan government’s assault on its civilian population are not isolated or sporadic events. Rather, these actions constitute a widespread and systematic policy and practice of atrocities, intentionally committed, including murder, political persecution and other inhumane acts which reach the threshold of crimes against humanity.

Responsibility to Protect

Under the 2005 World Summit Outcome Document, you have a clear and unambiguous responsibility to protect the people of Libya. The international community, through the United Nations, has the responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian and other peaceful means, in accordance with Chapters VI and VIII of the Charter, to help to protect the Libyan population. Because the Libyan national authorities are manifestly failing to protect their population from crimes against humanity, should peaceful means be inadequate, member states are obliged to take collective action, in a timely and decisive manner, through the Security Council, in accordance with the UN Charter, including Chapter VII.

In addition, we urge you to convene an emergency Special Session of the UN Human Rights Council, whose members have a duty, under UNGA Resolution 60/251, to address situations of gross and systematic violations of violations of human rights. The session should:

Call for the General Assembly to suspend Libya’s Council membership, pursuant to Article 8 of Resolution 60/251, which applies to member states that commit gross and systematic violations of human rights.

Strongly condemn, and demand an immediate end to, Libya’s massacre of its own citizens.
Dispatch immediately an international mission of independent experts to collect relevant facts and document violations of international human rights law and crimes against humanity, in order to end the impunity of the Libyan government. The mission should include an independent medical investigation into the deaths, and an investigation of the unlawful interference by the Libyan government with the access to and treatment of wounded.
Call on the UN High Commissioner of Human Rights and the Council’s relevant Special Procedures to closely monitor the situation and take action as needed.
Call on the Council to remain seized of the matter and address the Libyan situation at its upcoming 16th regular session in March.
Member states and high officials of the United Nations have a responsibility to protect the people of Libya from what are preventable crimes. We urge you to use all available measures and levers to end atrocities throughout the country.

We urge you to send a clear message that, collectively, the international community, the Security Council and the Human Rights Council will not be bystanders to these mass atrocities. The credibility of the United Nations — and many innocent lives — are at stake.

(list of signatures at link)
                                (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

Offline Brihard

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2011, 16:45:56 »
Or, it leads credence to an earlier BBC report (sorry, I don't have access to the link here) saying "Moammar Gadhafi has ordered the Libyan air force to fire on other military installations in order to ensure that the weaponry inside the installations does not fall into the hands of protesters."

Conversely, it also leads credence a view that there is a growing split within Libya's armed forces, with one faction supporting Gaddafi son Seif al-Islam (heard giving a rambling speech last night on al Jazeera) and the other faction supporting another brother, and National Security Adviser, Mutaasim. The fighter-bomber attacks and naval gunfire - not reported here - are potentially one military faction firing upon another.


Personally, I'm hesitant to make any sweeping judgments based on early reporting of a crisis -- more so, when the two sources quoted by name are self-identified as "a political activist" and a "Libyan activist ...taking part in a protest outside UN European headquarters in Geneva [who] said he had heard the same reports."

Blech. Ground to air. That's what I meant.

Anywya, there's no reason that any of the three possibilities - attacking protests, attacking military facilities that are overrun, or a split within the military - are necessarily contradictory. It could well be that some elements of the military are attacking civilians (that seems pretty much settled ot be the case), others are refusing and actively resisting, and some military facilities/equipment have been taken by protesters. There are other accounts of potential executions of military force who refuse to engage civilians.

Obviously much of this is subjective RUMINT and remains unclear... but most rumors in these cases have at least some basis in truth.

In any case, I'm very concerned, and paying close attention to all this. STRATFOR's been reporting on the possibility of Egypt sending forces in to evacuate its nationals, South Korea has apparently dispatched an 'emergency task force' to protect/evac some of its citiens, and Austria of all nations is declaring airspace over Tripoli to be closed.

It's night over there now... By later tonight our time we should see how the day there is shaping up.
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Offline 57Chevy

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2011, 18:04:22 »
Harper ‘vigorously condemns’ violence in Libya
Prime Minister Stephen Harper stepped up his government’s condemnation of Moammar Gadhafi’s Libyan regime Monday following reports it had fired on its own people in a bid to cling to power.
---
---
 
One expert said Canada may have been more cautious in its initial response to the situation in Libya because of "relentless" criticism from opposition parties and diplomats.

Aurel Braun, a University of Toronto international relations professor, said the federal government faced criticism after losing its bid for a seat on the United Nations Security Council in the fall, with some saying it had been too assertive in its support of Israel.

He said that may be prompting the government now to choose its words more carefully on the world stage.

"We have stood at the forefront of fighting for freedom, for the dignity of people around the world . . . unfortunately, our stance has been perhaps more cautious, not because of business interests, but because this government has been relentlessly criticized," he said.

"I think this may be at the heart of the reluctancy now," he said.
full article at link
                      (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Offline Brihard

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2011, 18:12:04 »
There are some ugly photos circulating now of some protesters blown into chunks by what is clearly heavier ordnance that simply small arms. Clearly some forms of heavy military equipment are being used against protesters, if the photos are indeed what they purport to be.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2011, 19:05:43 »
"LONDON - Libyan warplanes were bombing indiscriminately across Tripoli on Monday, a resident of the Libyan capital told al Jazeera television in a live broadcast. "

Wouldn't be surprised if that is what your referring to. Also there was a post above from 57chev that mentioned the witnesses have seen attack choppers, artillery, and high cal guns being used on personnel.

I will refer back to my initial post on this thread and say again, scary stuff.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 19:10:59 by willellis »

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2011, 19:36:22 »
According to USA Today and CNN, Moammar Gadhafi is on TV saying he's in Tripoli, not Venezuela.

Canada's Foreign Minister's latest statement:
Quote
Canada strongly condemns the violent crackdowns on innocent protesters that have resulted in many injured and killed. We call on the Libyan security forces to respect the human rights of demonstrators and uphold their commitment to freedom of speech and the right to assembly. The Libyan authorities must show restraint and stop the use of lethal force against protesters.

“The Government of Canada advises against non-essential travel to Libya because of civil unrest and demonstrations and the potential threat of terrorism in the country. Demonstrations are taking place, particularly in the eastern part of the country, including the cities of Benghazi, Derna, Baida and Tobruk.

“Canadians are advised to avoid all gatherings and demonstrations and to stay away from places where they may occur, because they may turn violent without warning. Canadians should monitor local news reports, take appropriate steps to increase their personal security and contact the Canadian embassy in Tripoli for assistance.

“Friends and relatives in Canada seeking information on Canadian citizens believed to be affected by the unrest in Libya should contact the Emergency Operations Centre at Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada by calling, toll-free, 1-800-387-3124, or by sending an email to sos@international.gc.ca ....

Meanwhile, here's what Italy was saying about Libyan fracas, versus what Italy is NOW saying.

Why Italy's worried (1) and  why Italy's worried (2).

One of the things Italy's doing (note ITA DefMin "did not rule out "the presence of special forces onboard" ").  More information on the ITA naval ship headed to Libya.
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aesop081

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2011, 20:01:32 »
Wow. I wonder what kind of response this is going to call for from the UN.

"Stop or we'll say stop, again"

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2011, 20:08:03 »
"Stop or we'll say stop, again"

And then we will continue to say stop til you appease us!! (what movie?)
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aesop081

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2011, 20:11:53 »
I get a kick at "vigorously condemn"........does it work like this ?


"We condemn your actions"

"We don't care"

"No no....you don't understand, we vigorously condemn your actions"

"oh...well in that case we shall stop forthwith"