Turkey Opens Bases to the US

[tomahawk6]

Finally some good news from Turkey.Now lets see the Turkish Army charge across the border to save Kobani.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-says-turkey-oks-bases-against-militants-185210066--politics.html

 

[a_majoor]

I rather doubt the Turks will be rushing in to save the day...

 

[Kirkhill]

Finally some good news from Turkey.Now lets see the Turkish Army charge across the border to save Kobani.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-says-turkey-oks-bases-against-militants-185210066--politics.html

Turks preferred solution.....sit back and watch Arabs and Kurds kill each other.  Cynical, me.

 

[Old Sweat]

Turks preferred solution.....sit back and watch Arabs and Kurds kill each other.  Cynical, me.

I think your assessment of the Turkish preferred course of action is closer to the truth than you may want it to be.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think your assessment of the Turkish preferred course of action is closer to the truth than you may want it to be.

There is no love lost amongst any of the parties where bad blood goes back to the stone age and obsidian was the strategic resource.

Ruins in Northern Syria Bear the Scars of a City’s Final Battle

Archaeologists digging in Syria, in the upper reaches of what was ancient Mesopotamia, have found new evidence of how one of the world’s earliest cities met a violent end by fire, collapsing walls and roofs, and a fierce rain of clay bullets. The battle left some of the oldest known ruins of organized warfare.

The excavations at the city, Tell Hamoukar, which was destroyed in about 3500 B.C., have also exposed remains suggesting its origins as a manufacturing center for obsidian tools and blades, perhaps as early as 4500 B.C.

Edit to add obsidian trade routes dating back to 9000 BC

link

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile the US Navy builds a Stone Frigate in Romania.....GBAD?

Navy Establishes New Base in Romania


(Source: US Navy; issued Oct 10, 2014)

DEVESELU, Romania --- Commander, Navy Region Europe, Africa, Southwest Asia (CNREURAFSWA) established Naval Support Facility (NSF) Deveselu Friday, Oct. 10, during an establishment and assumption of command ceremony on base.

....

Originally proposed in 2000 by then President George W. Bush, this BDM system, or shield, named the "Aegis Ashore System," is a response by the NATO military alliance to increasing threats posed by the amalgamation of intercontinental ballistic missiles in the Middle East.

....

The first of two proposed newly established bases, NSF Deveselu will utilize both a SM-3 missile interceptor battery platform and an Aegis SPY-1 radar platform.

...

The land-based ballistic missile defense system in Romania will be almost identical to that used on Navy Aegis-capable guided-missile destroyers and cruisers. It's designed to detect, track, engage and destroy ballistic missiles in flight.

....

To further the scope and reach of protection of the region's defense, a Navy base, nearly identical to NSF Deveselu, will be established in Poland.

...

The site will consist of a fire-control radar deckhouse with an associated Aegis command, control and communications suite. Separately, it will house several launch modules containing SM-3 missiles and be manned by about 200 U.S. military personnel, government civilians and support contractors.

This is more of interest to the Russians and the Europeans but Turkey used to be the centre of gravity for US operations in the area.  That centre has moved.

Link

The concept could also have implications for Canada - exploiting the commonality between sea-borne and land based air defence solutions could link the RCN and the RRCA.

 

[Edward Campbell]

At this hour (1100 Hrs Eastern) the media is reporting that the Turkish PM is denying reports that it will allow the US led coalition to use Turkish bases. It is being reported that some 'moderate' anti-Assad groups will be allowed sanctuary in Turkey.

As to Turkey's intentions ...

It is my belief that Turkey wants to be the linchpin between the West and the East, at least a, perhaps even the dominant power in all of the Near and Middle East with a grasp that extends into West Asia, too. I'm not sure how the Turks want to deal with Egypt and Iran; at a guess: a) force Egypt to look West, towards Africa for its power base; and b) allow Iran to look East, to contend with Stans, including Pakistan, for its power base. How far can Turkish power extend? In my opinion - which my be poorly informed - from Syria to Yemen and Oman, including domination of Saudi Arabia and control of the holy places. A new caliphate? Perhaps, call it what you will ... I can imagine Turkey being the colonial overlord of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, all the emirates and Yemen and Oman: a regional power with seaports on the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the Gulfs of Aden and Oman and the Arabian Sea.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not impossible and there is precedence - but there is precedence  ???

Courtesy of Wikipedia - with my version of capitals thrown in.  Link

Pick your centre of gravity.

1 Pre-1700 BCE: The Ancient Middle East
1.1 The Sumerian Empire - Baghdad
2 1700–1450 BCE: The Egyptian, Babylonian, and Hittite Empires
2.1 The Egyptian Empire - Cairo
2.2 The Babylonian Empire - Baghdad
2.3 The Hittite Empire - Ankara
3 600 BCE: The Median, Chaldean and Lydian Empires
3.1 The Median Empire - Tehran
3.2 The Chaldean Empire - Damascus
3.3 The Lydian Empire - Ankara
4 500 BCE: The Persian Empire
4.1 Ancient Iran - Tehran
5 323 BC: Alexander's Hellenistic Empire
5.1 Alexander the Great - Tehran
6 117 AD: The Roman and Parthian Empires
6.1 The Roman Empire - Rome
6.2 The Parthian Empire - Tehran
7 486 AD: The Eastern Roman Empire, The Dominion of the Ghassanids, and the Dominion of the Sassanids
7.1 The Eastern Roman Empire - Istanbul
7.2 The Ghassanid Empire - Damascus
7.3 The Sassanid Empire - Tehran
8 632 AD: The Arab Empire - Medina, followed by Damascus, followed by Baghdad, followed by Cairo

9 Would be the Turkish Empire (Ottomans) stretching from China to the Atlantic and centered on Istanbul from 1453 to 1922.

Then you can throw in competing tribes, clans, families and individuals.....

But just because history is "just one damthing after another" doesn't mean we can stay out of the game.  For me it just means we have to stay light on our feet, or in terms common in the "80s".  Maxflex.  And perhaps that applies to our principles as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile the Turks attack the Kurds

 

[Edward Campbell]

We, the US led Western 'we,' and especially the Anglo-Saxon 'we' have very, very, very few friends in that region. Turkey is a NATO ally, but it's certainly not clear to me that 'we' and Turkey are friends in the same way that 'we' and, say, neutral Sweden are friends. I suspect that Jordan is a friend ~ by necessity if not choice.  I think that the key lesson that we are learning is that there is no 'we' and 'they;' it's not a clear two-sided thing; it is multi-faceted and we are not sure who is who, much less whose side we are really on.

 

[CougarKing]

An update which shows that Turkey may actually have more to do with ISIS than previously thought:

Btw, isn't that actually an AIFV/KIFV or an M113 APC, not a "tank" as the media reported in the picture below?

Time to Kick Turkey Out of NATO?
The mess in Syria only confirms an inconvenient truth: The Turks are no longer reliable allies.

By JONATHAN SCHANZER
October 09, 2014

Politico Magazine

NATO Ally ? Turkey

Spotted in Kobane after IS took over the Kurdish town.

Asian Defence News

 

[jollyjacktar]

What do you expect?  Their government is no longer secular, they're Islamist.  At the very least I expect them to look the other way while ISIS makes hay next door.  I don't trust any Islamist bent government.  Period.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I think that Turkey sees Assad as the real enemy; IS** is fighting Assad. Turkey also sees the Kurds as a serious problem; IS** is fighting the Kurds, too. What's not to like?


Edit: typo

 

[a_majoor]

Turkey sees Iran as the "real" enemy (the only other regional State which has the ambitions and ability to become a regional Hegemon), Assad is one of Iran's allies and "tools", so having ISIS to apply pressure is a good thing for the Turks. The Turks are (like most people over there) very chauvinistic, so they are against the Kurds, Persians and Arabs. I also suspect they are not fans of Saudi Arabia and the spread of radical Islam through Saudi funded Imans.

OTOH, NATO provides a useful function for Turkey as a bulwark against the Russians, who the Turks dislike for historic reasons (the Czarist empire had designs on the Ottoman Empire, and modern Russia is allied with Iran), so I suspect they will try to milk the NATO angle for all its worth, for as long as it is useful for them.

 

[CougarKing]

I also suspect they are not fans of Saudi Arabia and the spread of radical Islam through Saudi funded Imans.

In spite of their Ottoman past, aren't the  Turks still Sunnis though? Or just a different sect of Sunni Islam from the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia? Just wanted to clarify...

 

[a_majoor]

The Turks are ethnically different from the Arabs (Kurds, Persians, etc.)
The Turks are culturally different from (insert group here)
While they are generally Sunni, they are not Wahabbis, nor do they wish to be.

This is the problem in a nutshell: the ethnic, cultural and religious chauvinism that cuts across the entire region. If you want to have some fun, try taking a political map of the Middle East then adding overlays of ethic groups, religions groups and so on. You will discover that there are virtually no contiguous areas where State, ethnic and religious boundaries overlap.

Robert Kaplan's "Revenge of Geography" tries to put a positive light on this, but I suspect the core of his analysis (and his broader theme that geography is history) is correct and Turkey and Iran are going to be the two most durable entities in the region since they have firm geographical boundaries that shelter their people and cultures. Much of the "Arab" lands are marginal at best, and historically occupied by nomadic bands of pastoralists with city-states on important trade routes occupying resources like secure water supplies. Try envisioning a political future on that model....

 

[CougarKing]

And more on Turkey making their position clear:

Canadian Press

Erdogan: Turkey would not consent to US arms transfers to Kurdish fighters in Syria
The Canadian Press

SURUC, Turkey - Turkey would not agree to any U.S. arms transfers to Kurdish fighters who are battling Islamic militants in Syria, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was quoted as saying Sunday, as the extremist group fired more mortar rounds near the Syrian-Turkish border.

Turkey views the main Syrian Kurdish group, the PYD — and its military wing which is fighting the Islamic State militants — as an extension of the PKK, which has waged a 30-year insurgency in Turkey and is designated a terrorist group by the United States and NATO.

The United States has said recently that it has engaged in intelligence sharing with Kurdish fighters and officials have not ruled out future arms transfers to the Kurdish fighters.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[CougarKing]

Turkey's initial reluctance to help in the fight against ISIS, then this change again (even if they had allowed Iraqi Kurds to pass through their territory to help the Syrian Kurds in Kobani) would have some wondering.

Moderators, since Turkish PM Erdogan had been quick to make recent comments such as this post from another thread that denigrate the West/US, wouldn't a better title for this thread be: "Turkey: love-hate relationship with the West/US/NATO" ?

Defense News

Turkey Mulls Military Support To Fight ISIL

ANKARA — Turkey's government and military leaders are weighing options for a possible Turkish contribution to a planned military offensive against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), officials here said.

"All options are open although it is unlikely that the government will finally decide to send ground troops to fight [ISIL]," a senior security official said. "There is a general understanding that we will do more militarily."

A senior Turkish diplomat said that the international effort dictates a more visible Turkish contribution to any offensive against ISIL.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The current government ability to pick a diplomatic stance that pisses on it's own legs is quite impressive. It's a pity that Greece is such a basket case right now, rearming the Greeks might be a good way of yanking the Turk's chain.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I was thinking the same thing, and I'm sure the Greek economy could use 3 or 4 US air or navy bases and all the local spending they bring with them.  Boot Turkey out of NATO on the grounds of nonstepupness, mine the Bosphorus, and let them have at it.