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Cost of housing in Canada

This luck or opportunity will never come back for the next generations to come.
The ability to do it "for/by yourself" certainly looks like it's in the rearview mirror.

But... I've said it before in this thread, but we (both as individuals and as a society) need to take a good hard look at whether our ideals with respect to self sufficiency within family units are helping or hurting.

The majority of homes are still owned by average Canadians, and the majority of Canadians live in owner occupied homes. Those Canadians had/are having fewer kids, and their kids are having fewer kids. As of 2021 70% of Canadians 45 and older own. That climbs to 75% at 55. Most of those homes bought years, decades, before the Covid run up, with oodles of equity. At the governmental/societal level things need fixed, because the way things are isn't "right," and eventually things will be as bad as people thinking they are now, and for a small subset of the population they're already untenable. But in the short/mid run (the next 5-15 years), for the majority of the population people have solutions at their finger tips. It just requires a different approach to quality of life/ spending decisions, inter generational wealth planning etc. As individuals we can bitch about our reality, or adapt to it.
 

A. We seriously need to up the level of financial literacy in this country- through the education system and for adults
B. This behaviour is screaming for tighter regulation and penalties.

C. (Why relevant to the thread) - unprecedented numbers of variable rate mortgages when rates were rock bottom and inflation was rising. Hmm. Some dots to connect their Ms. journalist.
 

A. We seriously need to up the level of financial literacy in this country- through the education system and for adults
B. This behaviour is screaming for tighter regulation and penalties.

C. (Why relevant to the thread) - unprecedented numbers of variable rate mortgages when rates were rock bottom and inflation was rising. Hmm. Some dots to connect their Ms. journalist.
For C the answer is simple. People couldn’t afford to buy with a fixed rate for the exuberant prices they wanted for the houses during the boom. Instead of waiting they all demanded one immediately and the only way for most do that was a variable rate mortgage.

I told some friends at the time it was stupid to do variable rate at record low interest rates but they weren’t interested because ‘it won’t go up any time soon’.

Its also scary for the amount which never put any conditions down like a home inspection and never discovered all sorts of expensive issues until later (you would think the banks would have it as a requirement considering it is supposed to be their collateral).
 
For C the answer is simple. People couldn’t afford to buy with a fixed rate for the exuberant prices they wanted for the houses during the boom. Instead of waiting they all demanded one immediately and the only way for most do that was a variable rate mortgage.

I told some friends at the time it was stupid to do variable rate at record low interest rates but they weren’t interested because ‘it won’t go up any time soon’.
And in keeping with the article- who was suggesting the variable rate and convincing them otherwise? Bank employees with sales quotass and no fiduciary duty mayhaps?
 
And in keeping with the article- who was suggesting the variable rate and convincing them otherwise? Bank employees with sales quotass and no fiduciary duty mayhaps?
Or the government literally saying they think interest rates will remain low for years. Or the realtors saying if you don't buy now you will likely never get the chance.

Or the individuals refusing to do research for themselves on what is likely the biggest purchase of their life?

Variable rate mortgages aren't a bad thing, just not as secure as fixed rate mortgages. The fixed payment variable rate mortgages should be illegal as you can hit the trigger rate and lose money each payment, but variable rate mortgages in and of themselves aren't good or bad.

If it was a high interest environment it is a good mortgage to have as its much more likely to go down than up. When its record lows its not exactly the most beneficial for you as it generally can only go up.

The problem isn't the mortgage type it is the exuberant principals on the home. The fact a 5% interest rate is beyond what many can afford says a lot considering that is a low number by historical averages.

For many it wasn't that variable rates were being suggested to them, it was that a variable rate at the time was the only way they could afford to take a mortgage that big. So instead of waiting and saving more they decided to rush in on a risky purchase at the limits of their spending power on a mortgage that could easily double. If individuals aren't willing to assess the risks involved (especially in the age of the internet), the bankruptcy which follows is their own fault.
 
Or the government literally saying they think interest rates will remain low for years. Or the realtors saying if you don't buy now you will likely never get the chance.
All of which could and should have been countered by actual financial advice. Sure those factors contributed to the demand- but should not have gotten so wild.
Or the individuals refusing to do research for themselves on what is likely the biggest purchase of their life?

For many it wasn't that variable rates were being suggested to them, it was that a variable rate at the time was the only way they could afford to take a mortgage that big. So instead of waiting and saving more they decided to rush in on a risky purchase at the limits of their spending power on a mortgage that could easily double. If individuals aren't willing to assess the risks involved (especially in the age of the internet), the bankruptcy which follows is their own fault.
Research, like going to a bank and having an "expert" that you (naively) believe is A. actually an expert and B. advising in your best interests? Financial literacy is terrible in this country. Being led astray by people that they trust that are in structurally misleading positions should be a bigger story

Which do you think was happening, advisers saying "I know that variable rate is attractive, but despite what the government is saying inflation is rising, and it's so attractive because the bank is hedging towards rates rising so wants to steer you away from a 5 year fixed that is basically free money and provides complete security- its worth it to keep your budget that little bit lower" or for them to be actively selling the product their bosses wanted them to.


The variable rate spike in late 2020 through 2021 was definitely exacerbated by predatory malpractice on the part of financial institutions.
 
All of which could and should have been countered by actual financial advice. Sure those factors contributed to the demand- but should not have gotten so wild.

Research, like going to a bank and having an "expert" that you (naively) believe is A. actually an expert and B. advising in your best interests? Financial literacy is terrible in this country. Being led astray by people that they trust that are in structurally misleading positions should be a bigger story

Which do you think was happening, advisers saying "I know that variable rate is attractive, but despite what the government is saying inflation is rising, and it's so attractive because the bank is hedging towards rates rising so wants to steer you away from a 5 year fixed that is basically free money and provides complete security- its worth it to keep your budget that little bit lower" or for them to be actively selling the product their bosses wanted them to.


The variable rate spike in late 2020 through 2021 was definitely exacerbated by predatory malpractice on the part of financial institutions.
The government wasn’t saying inflation was rising, they said it would stay steady.

It isn’t pushing a product, it literally was the only product available if your buying these expensive houses in Toronto, Vancouver, without enough of a downpayment/income. When someone comes in says I want a mortgage of ‘xxxx’ amount and the only way to do it is variable rate you let them know that.

The spike wasn’t caused by banks pushing it, it was caused by people running head first into a mortgage from bidding wars because they didn’t want to wait and safely assess risks.

People were just blindly bidding whatever their max mortgage amount was on basically any house with no conditions. Thats not the banks fault.

You can’t even say its because of poor financial advice, there is standard practice when buying for almost a century in Canada. Your conditions are basically always pending financing and home inspection. Everyone waived that and many got burned.

Its called personal responsibility, everyone can come up with some reason why it isn’t their fault. Many regret their purchases as it was way beyond what they could afford. At the end of the day no one held a gun to their head to foolishly make the most expensive purchase of their lives with no planning.
 
The ability to do it "for/by yourself" certainly looks like it's in the rearview mirror.

But... I've said it before in this thread, but we (both as individuals and as a society) need to take a good hard look at whether our ideals with respect to self sufficiency within family units are helping or hurting.

The majority of homes are still owned by average Canadians, and the majority of Canadians live in owner occupied homes. Those Canadians had/are having fewer kids, and their kids are having fewer kids. As of 2021 70% of Canadians 45 and older own. That climbs to 75% at 55. Most of those homes bought years, decades, before the Covid run up, with oodles of equity. At the governmental/societal level things need fixed, because the way things are isn't "right," and eventually things will be as bad as people thinking they are now, and for a small subset of the population they're already untenable. But in the short/mid run (the next 5-15 years), for the majority of the population people have solutions at their finger tips. It just requires a different approach to quality of life/ spending decisions, inter generational wealth planning etc. As individuals we can bitch about our reality, or adapt to it.
I disagree, just need to stop doing what everyone else is doing.

Every Canadian between the age of 18-40 needs to stop expecting anything and to go out and take it for themselves.
 
Every Canadian between the age of 18-40 needs to stop expecting anything and to go out and take it for ththemselves.
Yes- also-

Every Canadian between the age of 27 and 50 needs to stop lamenting the housing landscape waiting for their children and shift their decision making to help.

Ditto 50+ and grandchildren.
 
Banks and other financial institutions have a much greater interest in forecasting future costs of money (interest rates), and a lot of resources to throw at the problem. Whatever they offer as fixed rates 1, 2, 3, 5, whatever years out represents what they think is enough to maintain a profitable position. It's an envelope within which variable rates are a better deal for the buyer, unless the buyer thinks he can outguess the bank. The risks are "black swans" and sudden changes of political direction in fiscal matters. 2015 was a sudden change of direction - open admission that a new era of deficit spending was promised. The run-up that started in 1975 was hard to notice at first, too.
 
The government wasn’t saying inflation was rising, they said it would stay steady.

It isn’t pushing a product, it literally was the only product available if your buying these expensive houses in Toronto, Vancouver, without enough of a downpayment/income. When someone comes in says I want a mortgage of ‘xxxx’ amount and the only way to do it is variable rate you let them know that.

The spike wasn’t caused by banks pushing it, it was caused by people running head first into a mortgage from bidding wars because they didn’t want to wait and safely assess risks.

People were just blindly bidding whatever their max mortgage amount was on basically any house with no conditions. Thats not the banks fault.

You can’t even say its because of poor financial advice, there is standard practice when buying for almost a century in Canada. Your conditions are basically always pending financing and home inspection. Everyone waived that and many got burned.

Its called personal responsibility, everyone can come up with some reason why it isn’t their fault. Many regret their purchases as it was way beyond what they could afford. At the end of the day no one held a gun to their head to foolishly make the most expensive purchase of their lives with no planning.

Great post wish I could have liked it twice.
 
The government wasn’t saying inflation was rising, they said it would stay steady.
Yes, hence the word"despite". Government was saying one thing, despite that:
-inflation had been rising starting January 2021, breaking the 2% target threshold in March, 3% upper bound in April, and by the time October rolled around was sitting above 4% with 4 straight months of increases
-in October the 5yr fixed discounted rate started climbing steeply month over month, meanwhile the variable rate bottomed out for Nov-Jan
-the overnight rate didn't start moving until March 2022

There was a 5 month period where the warning signs were there and worsening to anyone paying attention. And during that period variable rate election peaked at unprecedented levels, and sustained that peak right through the BoC starting to raise rates.

Do you think mortgage "advisors*" at banks were doing their best to point out the warning signs and urge caution during this period, or were they pointing to the government assurances, sweeping the warning signs under the rug, and pointing out the lower payments? Keep in mind that
A- they had all these loans had a lot of stress runway, and many/most had either both of insurance or a co-signor - bank risk was heavily mitigated.

It isn’t pushing a product, it literally was the only product available if your buying these expensive houses in Toronto, Vancouver, without enough of a downpayment/income. When someone comes in says I want a mortgage of ‘xxxx’ amount and the only way to do it is variable rate you let them know that.
The spike wasn’t caused by banks pushing it, it was caused by people running head first into a mortgage from bidding wars because they didn’t want to wait and safely assess risks.
This is incorrect. Stress test provisions dictate max approvals being calculated at the higher of 5.25 (before june 2021 it was 4.8) or your approved rate + 2. So regardless of the decision between .85 variable and 1.7 fixed the max was the same - based on 5.25 The decision wasn't to take on more risk to enable higher loans, it was to take on more risk to get lower payments. Now- some people left big banks to get around the stress test and did as you said- but not nearly enough to explain the spike.

I didn't say that banks caused it, I said they exacerbated it. And they did.

People were just blindly bidding whatever their max mortgage amount was on basically any house with no conditions. Thats not the banks fault.
You can’t even say its because of poor financial advice, there is standard practice when buying for almost a century in Canada. Your conditions are basically always pending financing and home inspection. Everyone waived that and many got burned.
None of this has anything to do with people with an approval in place choosing between fixed and variable.
Its called personal responsibility, everyone can come up with some reason why it isn’t their fault. Many regret their purchases as it was way beyond what they could afford. At the end of the day no one held a gun to their head to foolishly make the most expensive purchase of their lives with no planning.
Yeah save the patronization. You can maintain your schadenfreude towards the dumdums. I have some of it too. I certainly agree that it's their bed to deal with, and have next to zero sympathy for the "plight" of people in 900k homes driving late model trucks unironically complaining that they can't make ends meet. It's time for lifestyle change's and co-signors to put their money where their signature is.

But "people are responsible for the consequences of their decisions" and "there was an unprecedented systemic anomaly of ignorant people making the same bad decision at the worst time -likely spurred on by unethical corporate behavior- it should be addressed" are not mutually exclusive statements.
 
Yeah save the patronization. You can maintain your schadenfreude towards the dumdums. I have some of it too. I certainly agree that it's their bed to deal with, and have next to zero sympathy for the "plight" of people in 900k homes driving late model trucks unironically complaining that they can't make ends meet. It's time for lifestyle change's and co-signors to put their money where their signature is.

But "people are responsible for the consequences of their decisions" and "there was an unprecedented systemic anomaly of ignorant people making the same bad decision at the worst time -likely spurred on by unethical corporate behavior- it should be addressed" are not mutually exclusive statements.
With all this doom and gloom over bank rates, how are car sales actually doing? They are a good indicator of a person's actual financial position. Are they buying or keeping the old girl going for another year? Are they buying lower end models or are monster trucks with all the trimmings still the vehicle of choice?
 
With all this doom and gloom over bank rates, how are car sales actually doing? They are a good indicator of a person's actual financial position. Are they buying or keeping the old girl going for another year? Are they buying lower end models or are monster trucks with all the trimmings still the vehicle of choice?
My gut says still going strong. The impacted cohort isnt that large in the grand scheme of things.
 
Saw this in today's real estate news.

March 18, 2024

Not sure if significant price gaps for detached homes are typical across Canada. But, they are in Toronto.

The New Normal: The $2 Million Home Market​


Through this analysis, it’s clear that there’s a significant price gap between the most affordable and the most expensive neighborhoods for detached homes in Toronto. While houses in the cheapest neighbourhood average $1,028,669, those in the priciest neighborhood average $4,296,250. It’s a $3 million dollar difference worth watching.

Seeing the neighbourhoods where detached homes are cheaper ( Green ) than average ( below $1,657,026 ). and neighbourhoods ( Red ) where detached homes are more expensive than average, is hardly surprising.

1710795747614.png
 
Saw this in today's real estate news.

March 18, 2024

Not sure if significant price gaps for detached homes are typical across Canada. But, they are in Toronto.

The New Normal: The $2 Million Home Market​




Seeing the neighbourhoods where detached homes are cheaper ( Green ) than average ( below $1,657,026 ). and neighbourhoods ( Red ) where detached homes are more expensive than average, is hardly surprising.

View attachment 83833
How many Starbuck's barristas for a cheap house?
 
With all this doom and gloom over bank rates, how are car sales actually doing? They are a good indicator of a person's actual financial position. Are they buying or keeping the old girl going for another year? Are they buying lower end models or are monster trucks with all the trimmings still the vehicle of choice?
Volume is down, and dropping. Average prices are rising/steady. Manufactures bumped prices, and now that people are starting to feel the pinch.

For those criticizing people who bought houses while prices were up, and interest was set to rise... Have you considered that they gambled on being able to pay, because the alternative is being locked out of ownership? If you weren't 5+ years into owning your place, would you sit back and wait indefinitely as prices rise, hoping for things to magically get better?

If you aren't currently a home owner in/near a city, you're unlikely to be able to get into the market. That will have negative consequences for society and the economy, regardless of your opinion of how it happened.
 
If you aren't currently a home owner in/near a city, you're unlikely to be able to get into the market. That will have negative consequences for society and the economy, regardless of your opinion of how it happened.
Those consequences are already starting to show. Road rage is way up. And people aren't paying attention as they drive. They are in a real hurry and they all look frazzled. Food bank here is practically empty and donations are way down as well. Not good,
 
My gut says still going strong. The impacted cohort isnt that large in the grand scheme of things.
Car sales are down. Way way down, even compared to this time last year.

For a while cars were difficult to get - either their price had skyrocketed while the 'supply chain issue' was sorted out, or they just weren't available at all.

(A local oil & gas business was trying to purchase a white pickup truck to add to their on-site fleet and could not find one for the whole year I was privy to what was happening. Even fleet sales didn't have any)

So availability played a big factor. Now that availability is better, it's people's incomes that are limiting them...with rent increasing as well as groceries, a lot of people who could have afforded a car a year or two ago simply can't now.


(I sold cars for about 9 months...realized on Day 2 that it wasn't the place for me. I still am in regular contact with some of the folks who work/manage there...great resource when trying to track down specific stolen cars)
 
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