- Reaction score
- 1,720
- Points
- 1,140
I am pretty sure DL grads can take a couple more RMC DL courses to get their Masters.
Arbour Report - Recommendation #29: Future of Military Colleges
- Thread starter stoker dave
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 6,447
- Points
- 1,360
Actually nice to see posts that have nothing to do with the thread topic for a change.......however.
Oops, sorry. I know there’s a thread on this recently, I thought we were in that one.
- Reaction score
- 27,337
- Points
- 1,090
That changed with the class of 2015. CFC hasn't bothered to get off their ass to fix it.
- Reaction score
- 6,447
- Points
- 1,360
And now we are.
Bruce
- Reaction score
- 1,720
- Points
- 1,140
From the JCSP 47 DL joining instructions (not sure which year that is, most probably after 2015), available online by searching « JCSP DL » on Google.
- Reaction score
- 27,337
- Points
- 1,090
Para 5 paraphrased says that the DL students can take their credits elsewhere to get a Masters, or do additional coursework compared to the residency students. Those additional credits are at the expense of the student - not only must you work full time for two years while doing the program, but you must then pay out of pocket to get the MDS.
And this year, as the final fuck you to the DL students, they were not permitted in the hall for their own graduation, but were sent a link to watch on their phones (then called in for their grip and grin).
And this year, as the final fuck you to the DL students, they were not permitted in the hall for their own graduation, but were sent a link to watch on their phones (then called in for their grip and grin).
Got it. So the credits count and will get you most of the way there, but CAF has not taken it upon itself to structure a JCSP DL that will take you all the way across the finish line. Any idea what would be the delta between JCSP DL completion and attaining the needed credits for the MDS? Is it just a matter of a couple additional courses/major research paper?
- Reaction score
- 27,337
- Points
- 1,090
As I recall, three courses plus a paper, each of which you must pay for.
- Reaction score
- 6,271
- Points
- 1,040
What I still find weird is that the JCSP is supposed to be Master's level study as part of the professionalization of senior officers, but if you already have a Masters, you still have to go to JCSP for the tick in the box. After spending a few years getting a real Masters under the PG program, nothing less appealing then spending a year on IR in Toronto doing some BS CAF academics, that doesn't actually get into anything concretely useful.
btrudy
Full Member
- Reaction score
- 465
- Points
- 810
It's intended to be job training that is also structured in an academic manner, to allow for the dual benefit of both counting for (or towards) a Masters, while also getting the military qualification. Yes, the academic nature of it helps out as part of the "professionalization of senior officers" that any post-secondary education would aid in, but it has a specific focus as well.
Doing some random Masters on Shakespeare or Guided Weapon Systems or the War of 1812 isn't going to provide the base level knowledge that they're trying to instill in everyone who goes through Staff College.
I'd suggest that your assessment of it not "actually getting into anything concretely useful" is ... inaccurate at best.
- Reaction score
- 7,056
- Points
- 1,310
The problem is that it has become carrot and stick. You need JCSP to advance, but the Masters is also a carrot dangled to get reluctant folks to commit to institutionalized education on the CAF's terms.
I'm certain that a senior Logistics officer will see further development getting an MBA or a Signals Officer getting a Masters in Project Management than going to CFC and getting the same generic year of CAFJOD 5/7 2.0 as their peers.
It's also a bit of salt in the wound that promotion past Major on most SCRITs favours a Masters, however, JCSP is a senior Major and up program. Why the double Masters? It's credentialism in place of experience.
Content vice method my friend. You're learning and demonstrating skills in a Masters program more so than learning content. Talk to someone who has a Masters in History about what facts they learned vice what processes they learned for research, constructive thought, multiple perspectives, etc. It's not what is learned but how it's learned that makes the difference between a Bachelors and a Masters.
And I would counter that any practical application from JCSP is minimal unless you're going to be force employed in a Joint L1/2 environment.
Much like front loading the CAFJODs and AJSO into DP2, when a brand new subbie is still getting their feet wet in their craft; JCSP is teaching Advanced Calculus to a middle schooler: it's going to help them when they get to the next higher level, but it's information overloading instead of building a foundation.
- Reaction score
- 6,271
- Points
- 1,040
The US equivalent is shorter, but the final evaluation is actually running a giant exercise with, air, land, sea and special force assets. They don't do a lot of the theoretical content we do; instead they learn by doing, with actual mentoring and oversight.
Our looks at the theory of leadership, and some other very concrete issues as an academic issue, and then maybe some of it will stick (if you do jobs relevant to that kind of thing). No actual practical portion, which doesn't make sense when the actual subjects are very concrete and practical issues like leadership and operational planning.
https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/118/406/cfc300-46-eng.pdf
No one coming out of JCSP is going to be able to do actual staff planning off the bat unless they have previous experience as a junior officer or Major/LCdr. There will still be a significant learning period if you go into a staff job to learn the specifics there, and a lot of people will go to JCSP and never do that kind of work.
And if you read the syllabus, people will be doing that kind of work at the two ringer and two and half already without JCSP, and your prep for those is a posting message, and, if you are lucky, a turnover. A huge swathes of the CAF is also doing critical things like financial planning, project managements and logistic/technical support that isn't covered at all in JCSP, which is why the CAF already has a sponsored PG program.
Lot of empire building at CFC on this one, and really no justifiable reason for it to be physically located in Toronto, where everyone is required to do a cost move to the most expensive city in Canada (or go on IR to a place that isn't close to the majority of the bases). If it was at least located in the NCR area that would make sense, as a lot of people are posted there following the course anyway to do staff jobs anyway.
Given the financial costs of running the school, the salary of the students, and the loss of a year of time doing jobs, I don't see the bang for the buck here. At least with sponsored PGs it's tied directly to a specific job so that knowledge is put to use immediately afterwards.
Our looks at the theory of leadership, and some other very concrete issues as an academic issue, and then maybe some of it will stick (if you do jobs relevant to that kind of thing). No actual practical portion, which doesn't make sense when the actual subjects are very concrete and practical issues like leadership and operational planning.
https://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/118/406/cfc300-46-eng.pdf
No one coming out of JCSP is going to be able to do actual staff planning off the bat unless they have previous experience as a junior officer or Major/LCdr. There will still be a significant learning period if you go into a staff job to learn the specifics there, and a lot of people will go to JCSP and never do that kind of work.
And if you read the syllabus, people will be doing that kind of work at the two ringer and two and half already without JCSP, and your prep for those is a posting message, and, if you are lucky, a turnover. A huge swathes of the CAF is also doing critical things like financial planning, project managements and logistic/technical support that isn't covered at all in JCSP, which is why the CAF already has a sponsored PG program.
Lot of empire building at CFC on this one, and really no justifiable reason for it to be physically located in Toronto, where everyone is required to do a cost move to the most expensive city in Canada (or go on IR to a place that isn't close to the majority of the bases). If it was at least located in the NCR area that would make sense, as a lot of people are posted there following the course anyway to do staff jobs anyway.
Given the financial costs of running the school, the salary of the students, and the loss of a year of time doing jobs, I don't see the bang for the buck here. At least with sponsored PGs it's tied directly to a specific job so that knowledge is put to use immediately afterwards.
McG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,088
- Points
- 1,160
JCSP is not masters level and, as demonstrated by the fact that the masters level is both optional & not universally available, it is not supposed to be.
It is post-graduate level, but there are lots of post-graduate certificate and diploma programs at various universities & colleges. Post-graduate includes but does not equal higher degrees.
JCSP is supposed to be professional military education relevant to filling command and staff roles at operational, institutional, and strategic levels.
- Reaction score
- 6,271
- Points
- 1,040
A few years ago they made the Masters of Defence Studies portion mandatory; previously it was optional for people that already had a Masters. Not sure if that has changed back, but I guess they thought some students had too much free time, as there wasn't an option to do a shortened version without the MDS (ie do a single semester for the Command/Staff roles).
Concur with the intent of what it's supposed to be, but loading people on it who aren't going to be filling staff command or staff roles in case they might do a posting in the future isn't really in line with the just-in-time training philosophy.
Given that you are paying a senior Major for a year, have a cost move to/from Toronto, plus operating costs for CFC, doesn't seem like a great ROI.
McG
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,088
- Points
- 1,160
We should not be doing just in time training. That is a Lean practice that makes the Human resources pool fragile. We should (as we used to reach) train two levels up so that people are ready to step into higher roles when an emergency demands.
… also, it is cheaper to send a major onto a year of PME than to send a LCol.
- Reaction score
- 6,271
- Points
- 1,040
Sure, but you do that in the unit, not in a class room. Our HR pool is fragile, and this takes people out of it for a full year, while providing very broad PME that will still require direct and job specific on boarding.
All the training and assessments up to that point include basics like leadership in a practical setting, and recommendations for suitability for Command type positions. Depending where you are working, you will already be staff work and operational planning that would allow you to step into those jobs.
Similarly, the majority of officers have an undergrad already, and are also assessed on comms all the way through.
People getting recommended for JCSP are already scoring really highly on that side of things, so isn't it largely redundant at this point?
If the big value of the JCSP is some tours of NDHQ or NATO to see how HQs work and discussions with OGDs, it would be even cheaper to just do some short term DL coursing and TD.
It's a big investment, but the requirement and benefits out of it is really poorly articulated. And if things are at the point where some of us boffins are in charge of operational or campaign planning things have gone really poorly. Maybe is great for some MOCs but it will be largely unused in others, so probably a good time to review the requirement.
Weinie
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 3,518
- Points
- 1,140
And my 39 years plus of service showed me that degreed vs non-degreed officers meant jack-shit. Some folks r born leaders, some folks learn their position, some folks are middling, and some folks are toxic. It is like, "voila, competency vis a vis rank is acquired.
Last edited:
- Reaction score
- 7,056
- Points
- 1,310
Bingo.
As a CFR currently stuck...well....playing catch up, education, qualification, aptitude, and experience are not branches on the same tree.
I scraped through high-school, however, I know what military correspondence is supposed to look like because of... well...red ink. Lots of it.
When I have been given orders in the past, you can tell when the drafter has been on the receiving end before; vice someone writing a dissertation in SMESC format.
I have met very intelligent and educated officers that have gone on to be successful Project Managers and Staff Officers; who lack the charisma and personal skills to lead a marching band let alone a Troop or Sqn of soldiers.
IMHO, for as much as we push the study of Clausewitz's On War , we arrogantly forget that the man also opined that not all officers are made of the same mettle; and attempt to train charisma, character, and gravitas into people who are far more suited to the analytical and intellectual aspect of warfare.
Both have their place, but sadly we seem to think the two are interchangeable with 2 year posting message for "breadth of experience."
It drives me crazy that an MBA completed at a lower rank is 1 point, but if you wait and finish it as a Maj it’s 2 points, and it was 0 points as a Capt. JCSP tops it off as a 3rd point (including the 2 points for Masters in rank). Is JCSP really 3x better for the institution than a Master’s received at a lower rank?
Similar threads
