Author Topic: All Things Cuba (Castro, politics, etc.)  (Read 86334 times)

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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2004, 15:18:44 »
As I understand the 10% commission is to act as a buffer against any risk the Cuban government is taking.
As far as I know the american bucks are being used on the international market to purchase things such as medical supplies, books, etc.

I dunno,
It's really much less black and white than many of us are led to believe.
Castro began with a model for a government that could have revolutionized the entire of LATAM. In the US' Backyard? Not bloody likely. Land reform? The united fruit company sees otherwise.
For better or for worse he is the most important figure in LATAM politics, and one of the most enduring fighters in the world.
At 78 years old I cannot picture any man shattering bones on a stage then getting up and giving a 15 minute speech.
He's had to "make deals with the devil" but I don't blame him, I don't think he jumped off that cliff and I firmly believe he was pushed.

I would love to see Cuba indpendent and sovereign from foreign investment, a self-sufficient model that LATAM could follow but I've learned the hard way that some things will not be allowed to happen.


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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2004, 15:35:07 »
Well said Che.

Offline Danjanou

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2004, 15:42:40 »
Just when it econically viable to go back to Cuba with our lame dollar at plus eigthy cents too.

So you mean I now have to figure out how much the Jinteros are going to charge me in Euros for my blackmarket Cohibas and Langosta?

Well good thing I no longer have to worry about the Jinteras. 8)

Seriously not a good move in the long run. The US Dollar is a common currency in a lot of places and this may start to inconvenience the touristas who still acount for most of his outside revenue.

As for the embargo its a farce. It has more holes in it than McGguilty has broken election promises.

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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2004, 15:47:13 »
As I understand the 10% commission is to act as a buffer against any risk the Cuban government is taking.

Yeah, right.  I suppose the point that it amounts to a 10% tax on everyone holding the only currency of any value in the country is moot, right?  This is the essence of socialism: transfer of wealth to a ruling elite from everyone else, as it is supposedly in their best interests.

The only reason why Cuban economy hasn't already completely self-destructed is the years of artificial support it got from the USSR. 

I still can't figure out how the "anti-globalization activists" reconcile their notion of the evils of free trade with opposition to the trade embargo on Cuba (no imperialistc trade with evil American multinationals = must be a paradise, right?).
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2004, 15:48:45 »
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Also, big vote in the UN (if anyone cares anymore) on the trade embargo tommorow.
It seems there were only 3 countries against lifting the Embargo in the entire world.

Unfortunately, one of those 3 is the only one that really matters.

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I would love to see Cuba indpendent and sovereign from foreign investment, a self-sufficient model that LATAM could follow but I've learned the hard way that some things will not be allowed to happen.

It's funny that people seem to blame all the problems of the of Cuba on the embargo.   Isn't it ironic that the path to a bountiful socialist paradise can only be met with access to the harvest of a liberal, free market economy?

I fully recognize that the Batista regime was a corrupt kleptocracy, but this fact doesn't necessarily make Castro's regime "good."   The fact that he went to bed with the Soviets speaks volumes about his credibility (and sent troops in support of gaining more Kremlin satelites).

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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2004, 16:00:35 »
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Unfortunately, one of those 3 is the only one that really matters.

Absolutely disagree. Might will never make right in my books even if that is the case for the majority of career politicians.

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It's funny that people seem to blame all the problems of the of Cuba on the embargo.  Isn't it ironic that the path to a bountiful socialist paradise can only be met with access to the harvest of a liberal, free market economy?

The "problems" of the Cuban economy is that it is a developing country and that it is using a model that stands outside of what is "right"
Name the latin American country with the lowest level of HIV, name the latin american country with the lowest unemployment rate, name the latin American country that provides the best health services (Arguably Costa Rica fine) highest literacy level?
Or, name the latin American country that consistently comes near the top of all of these catergories.
A free market economy in a developing world is horse shite. Economy is a concern, but an economy is useless if the people are dead and if the economy belongs to foreign investment.

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I fully recognize that the Batista regime was a corrupt kleptocracy, but this fact doesn't necessarily make Castro's regime "good."  The fact that he went to bed with the Soviets speaks volumes about his credibility (and sent troops in support of gaining more Kremlin satelites

Going to bed with the Soviets isn't a term I would use.
Pushed into bed with the Soviets by an Eagle trying to peck out his eyes perhaps.

I don't believe his regime is good. But I don't particularly think any government in the world right now is particularly "good"
But it still stands as a model for development in LATAM and other developing countries that will never be allowed to occur even though it could potentially turn it around.

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2004, 16:10:55 »
I'm going to get ripped to pieces for this I just know it.

And just when Infanteer and I had buried the hatchet
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 16:45:20 by Infanteer »

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2004, 16:17:18 »
>A free market economy in a developing world is horse shite

So, how did the rest of us get from "developing" to "developed"?
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2004, 16:19:43 »
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So, how did the rest of us get from "developing" to "developed"?

If I were to tell you by riding the backs of the proleteriat this thread might degrade slightly in quality, so suffice it to say I believe the modern developed world got to be developed in ways that are unacceptable in modern times.

Offline Danjanou

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2004, 16:46:01 »

Nice points Che, but lets not forget name the country where Doctors, Engineers and other professionals etc leave those professions because they can earn more in tips as a good pool waiter in Varadero or Cayo Coco.

Name a country where I visited a local rural clinic and realised I had more basic medical supplies and drugs in my rucksack med pack than they did in the whole clinic.

Name a country where at one time said doctor turned pool waiter was forced to turn his dollar tip into the Government for a shiny peso as per the official exchange rate, this when the unofficial black market rate was 100 to 1. Not that it mattered as he was prohibited from even entering let alone shopping in the hard currency foreigner only diplomat stores.
   
Name a country where where young woman in their teens were forced by economic necessity into earning a living on their backs for dirty old men ( European and Canadian) to support families and if caught were given you guessed it three years strict regime.
   
Lets not get in to the political parts such as name a country where attempts at illegal immigration is worth 3 years strict regime prison cutting sugar cane, if caught (Balaseros)

Name a country where protesting the government is worth 3 years strict regime or worse, where trying to set up a mom and pop restuarant or B&B  can mean

Name a country where yes everyone got an education and access to Tv and/or radio, but were limited in what they were allowed to read watch listen to.

Name a country where talking to foreigner earned you a visit to the Policia, and maybe three years.

Name a country where testing positive for HIV meant forced confinement in a government institution against your will. Remember the Roqueros?

Two sides to every coin, even Moneida Nacional or Pesos Convertible mi Companero.   

Infanteer for the record Sgt Batista did start asa reformer and guerilla leader against Presidente Machado in the 1920s and 1930s. As they say power corrupts and .....
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2004, 16:54:31 »
Thanks Danjanou - checkmate.

Che, no worries mate.  We're here to debate.  If this means putting our conceptions and our angles and viewpoints up to be pecked at, then so be it.  There is no personal enmity in it (We got over that bump along time ago  ;) ).

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Absolutely disagree. Might will never make right in my books even if that is the case for the majority of career politicians.

I didn't mean that the US is the only one that matters in terms of power, I mean economically, the world can decide to accept Cuba with open arms, but until Cuba has access to US markets, the UN vote is useless.  The United States, as a sovereign country, is fully in its perview to maintain its own embargo.  It's funny how some are so eager to condemn the US for "meddling in others affairs" and then are just as eager to meddle in the affairs of Americans, telling them who and who they shouldn't trade with (YANKEE SCUM, DON'T TRADE WITH ISRAEL, TRADE WITH CUBA; LISTEN TO US OR WE'LL CONDEMN YOU!!!).
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2004, 17:01:28 »
Also good points Danjanou.
Except for one:
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Name a country where testing positive for HIV meant forced confinement in a government institution against your will. Remember the Roqueros?

I thought that was the initial knee jerk reaction and they've since changed that practice considerably.

I wouldn't call Castro a saint, but he's not entirely the devil either.

I still contend that they are better off than many of us in the west would say. Compare them to any country in africa and many countries in LATAM.
Had Castro never come along I see a Cuba in much worse shape than it is in right now.

Jefe needs to change there's no question but I do have a deep place in my heart for Cuba and I and many others would not like to see Cuba corruptd in the way it was before Castro and that was all under the eyes of the US administration.
What bothers the US (and I admit I have no way of getting into the mind of an American politician) is that this is one of the administrations in their Own backyard that they do not have a transparent view of.

He might be an old, grumpy, agressive, rhetorically filled, control fetishist, BUT he is Cuba's old, grumpy, agressive, rhetorically filled, control fetishist.
Why trade a controlling tyrant in Havana for a power that has use LATAM as a puppet show?


Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2004, 17:01:36 »
The "problems" of the Cuban economy is that it is a developing country and that it is using a model that stands outside of what is "right"
Name the latin American country with the lowest level of HIV, name the latin american country with the lowest unemployment rate, name the latin American country that provides the best health services (Arguably Costa Rica fine) highest literacy level?
Or, name the latin American country that consistently comes near the top of all of these catergories.
A free market economy in a developing world is horse shite. Economy is a concern, but an economy is useless if the people are dead and if the economy belongs to foreign investment.
For most (if not all) of those claims, the word "allegedly" should preceed!

That Cubans are fleeing the country and begging the US for asylum (remember Elian Gonzales?) suggests that it may not be the paradise you make it out to be ...


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Going to bed with the Soviets isn't a term I would use.
Pushed into bed with the Soviets by an Eagle trying to peck out his eyes perhaps.
WHAT?!?!?  The Communist Party of Cuba was a member of COMINTERN since the 1920's!!!  (I thought the Chomsky discussion was in another thread!)


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But it still stands as a model for development in LATAM and other developing countries that will never be allowed to occur even though it could potentially turn it around.
What does this mean?
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2004, 17:08:25 »
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For most (if not all) of those claims, the word "allegedly" should preceed!
Fair enough

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That Cubans are fleeing the country and begging the US for asylum (remember Elian Gonzales?) suggests that it may not be the paradise you make it out to be ...

Perhaps, but I've never called it a paradise. I've described it as a model for developing countries that could potentially work, but paradise, never.
I've talked with quite a few Cuban academics, doctors, engineers who Castro has sent to other developing countries and they say "no" they will not leave. Cuba might be imperfect, but they've seen how the rest of the developing world is and they, due to experiences they would never have gotten under other regimes, know that the majority of the world is NOT any better.

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WHAT?!?!?  The Communist Party of Cuba was a member of COMINTERN since the 1920's!!! 


And they didn't support Castro's rise to power for a minute until the United Fruit Company set the Eagle up in arms.
Opportunism? Yeah, but they had very little to do with Castro until the US started twisting Castros nipples.

And I'm not sure what's unclear about the last point.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2004, 17:15:51 »
Come on Che, you got to be kidding me?   Please tell me you've lived in Cuba so I can be sure I'm not mistaken you for some member of the local university chapter of the Spartacus League.   I've come to know you in the last while and your posts are solid and well thought out, so I'm honestly confounded by this "digging in" of the heels.   I am willing to send you my copy of Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

Seriously though, I would encourage you to try and sell your convictions in Florida.  There is a reason people float on cars to get there.

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I've talked with quite a few Cuban academics, doctors, engineers who Castro has sent to other developing countries and they say "no" they will not leave.

Hmm...notice the caveat.  The Soviets did this too...hey, I remember a great Olympics in Berlin in 1936 to showcase the Marvels of National Socialism.  Beware the snake-oil salesmen.
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2004, 17:24:36 »
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some member of the local university chapter of the Spartacus League.

Actually I really hate those bastards. How do they get to the protest? In an SUV from the south end of Halifax.

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Seriously though, I would encourage you to try and sell your convictions in Florida.  There is a reason people float on cars to get there

Illusions of granduer in the land of the free? Angry Exiles offering them room and board?

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Beware the snake-oil salesmen.
Believe me if I could name names I would, but sufficed to say, these were not all sunshine and lollipops academics.

I wouldn't have mentioned them had they not been very critical of Castros power fetish.
Cuba is a model for a developing country, not a champion of democracy.
I will bend and concede Castro is long past his time and that Cuba is anything but paradise, and I have seen the medical clinics the slums and the underbelly of Cuba.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2004, 17:42:07 »
I've talked with quite a few Cuban academics, doctors, engineers who Castro has sent to other developing countries and they say "no" they will not leave. Cuba might be imperfect, but they've seen how the rest of the developing world is and they, due to experiences they would never have gotten under other regimes, know that the majority of the world is NOT any better.
I've talked to a few who aren't part of the elite and their story seems to differ somewhat ...

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And they didn't support Castro's rise to power for a minute until the United Fruit Company set the Eagle up in arms.
Opportunism? Yeah, but they had very little to do with Castro until the US started twisting Castros nipples.

Let me follow your logic: the old communist party (under directives from Moscow) exists in Batiista's cabinet; Castro wins the revolution and starts nationalizing the economy and eliminating political opponents.  US gets pissed-off at the expropriation of private property and aborts a (ridiculously underwhelming) invasion.  So the old communist party decides to join with Castro because of the actions of the US and not, say the fact that they threatened with extinction (and death and torture of their leaders), or that Castro was being paid by Moscow to consolidate communist power.

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And I'm not sure what's unclear about the last point.
I don't understand what you are trying to say: that if you shower enough money for long enough in even the stupidest of economic systems that there will be some economic benefit for some people?
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2004, 17:47:46 »
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I've talked to a few who aren't part of the elite and their story seems to differ somewhat


That would be right on par with my thesis.
The elite (if you knew how little they get payed they might not seem so elite) have, as I've said, seen how the majority of the world lives. And it would make sense that Juan the bartender has not worked in Africa and has heard enough stories about the fabulous America that their stories would differ.

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So the old communist party decides to join with Castro because of the actions of the US and not, say the fact that they threatened with extinction (and death and torture of their leaders), or that Castro was being paid by Moscow to consolidate communist power

Quite frankly, until I see some textual sources that's a theory that has little basis in history and uses the same speculation that Mr. Chomsky uses.

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I don't understand what you are trying to say: that if you shower enough money for long enough in even the stupidest of economic systems that there will be some economic benefit for some people?

Yeah...still not following.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2004, 18:00:08 »
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Actually I really hate those bastards. How do they get to the protest? In an SUV from the south end of Halifax.

HA!   You're right on the mark there.   I shut one up pretty quick by asking him how he amended himself between aiming at getting American Imperialists out of Iraq and owning a $120 Nike running shoes...Academia is so full of contradictions at times....
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2004, 18:25:52 »
That would be right on par with my thesis.
The elite (if you knew how little they get payed they might not seem so elite) have, as I've said, seen how the majority of the world lives. And it would make sense that Juan the bartender has not worked in Africa and has heard enough stories about the fabulous America that their stories would differ.
If my family were, in effect, being held hostage by my government while I was overseas I might have some difficulty speaking out against it.  More to the point is the fact that the press, internet, etc. is so strictly controlled that they have no choice but to dream about the outside world.

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Quite frankly, until I see some textual sources that's a theory that has little basis in history and uses the same speculation that Mr. Chomsky uses.
Be serious here: I am having to make the assumption that Moscow would support nationalization of the economy and that COMINTERN existed to spread communism (or at least fealty to Moscow's communism) around the world.

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Yeah...still not following.
From your subsequent post, you seem to be arguing that Cuba is some kind of a model for third world development, and while socialism has failed in nearly every other context, Cuba is the notable exception.  However, one can't help but to wonder how much of it's supposed success was built purely on transfers from the Soviets (given the post-Soviet collapse of their economy, I would venture that the answer is somewhere between the lines of "a lot" and "a heck of a lot").
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 18:29:58 by I_am_John_Galt »
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2004, 18:39:10 »
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If my family were, in effect, being held hostage by my government while I was overseas I might have some difficulty speaking out against it.  More to the point is the fact that the press, internet, etc. is so strictly controlled that they have no choice but to dream about the outside world.

Well I did state they were speaking out against Castro's control fetish in the conversation I had with them.
A very reasonable point though of course.
I should note that I don't follow Castro's Cuba blindly and that freeom of press is one of the things I don't see eye to eye with them on.

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Be serious here: I am having to make the assumption that Moscow would support nationalization of the economy and that COMINTERN existed to spread communism (or at least fealty to Moscow's communism) around the world

Fair enough, however if you read the diaries and memoirs of the revolutions main players, prior to the big blowup, you'll find that they were equally critical of the USSR as being as imperialist as the "Yankee agressor"
Which supports, I believe, my theory that they were in fact pushed into bed with the Soviets more so than willingly jumping in.

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From your subsequent post, you seem to be arguing that Cuba is some kind of a model for third world development, and while socialism has failed in nearly every other context, Cuba is the notable exception.  However, one can't help but to wonder how much of it's supposed success was built purely on transfers from the Soviets (given the post-Soviet collapse of their economy, I would venture that the answer is somewhere between the lines of "a lot" and "a heck of a lot").

Ah Now I follow.
A good point of course.
When I say Cuba is a model I mean in the sense that the social changes are neccessary before economic success can be achieved.
IE;Dead campesinos can't cut sugar cane.

As good model I suppose I shouldn't say. A working possibility outside of opening the flood of foreign investment and land control (Assume for a moment that the USSR and the USA weren't locked in a power struggle)

Offline Danjanou

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2004, 18:50:59 »
Actually good ole Juan the bartender probably has got a good look at Africa that is if he's over 30-35.
To get work in a hotel/resort there you must show proof of completion of national service. Anyone in that age group probably got a free all inclusive vacation in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Angola or other charming spots compliments of the Bearded one whose name is never mentioned aloud amongst the companeros.

Che you're probably right re the Rocqueros, mind I think they're all dead, and because of those drastic measures back then HIV infection is pretty minimal on the island. That and the closing of Varadero to the sex tourists back in the late 1990's.

You get the feeling that Senor Galt may have spent a little time there too amigo and not at the all inclusive swim up bar either?

 
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2004, 19:03:56 »
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Actually good ole Juan the bartender probably has got a good look at Africa that is if he's over 30-35.


Most Juan's I met were young hotheaded youth (nary a year or two past me!) who hated not having nike shoes, porno and well endowed blond American women around all the time.

I still find it strange that Castro doesn't have the sight to be able to realise that he's headed off into a bad place, the same kind of place that allowed him to take power.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2004, 19:15:05 »
What an amazing thread!

It seems socialism has cast its magic spell even over those of us who are in the profession of fighting socialism   ;) .Seriously, the actions of Castro are pretty self evident. A 10% foreign exchange tax or commission is just another means of raking off and pocketing what little wealth the Cubans have managed to gain for themselves.

The historical background of the United States in Cuba and the rest of the Carribean basin are best outlined in Max Boot's "The Savage Wars of Peace", which I strongly suggest people read before going on about the United Fruit Company. The original imperative for US actions in Haiti, Nicaragua, Cuba and the Dominican Republic was to protect the sea approaches of the Panama Canal, and prevent local instability and revolutions from inviting the unwelcome attention of Imperial Powers like Germany, far fetched as it may sound today. US military power was secondarily used for what we call "nation building" today, on only marginally for economic reasons (the defense of property rights). Benign neglect was actually the order of the day, with American administrations believing in the power of example, rather than explicitly creating government structures which could govern after the withdrawl of the Marines. (This lesson seems to have been learned in Afghanistan and Iraq. How well it is executed remains to be seen).

IF anyone really wants to make a comparison between Socialism and Capitalism, simply compare the current rates of economic growth, unemployment or number of MRIs per capita between Canada and the United States. If only Mr Martin would emulate George W Bush's "mistakes" and give us such a "weak" economy....
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Cuba Getting rid of the US Dollar/ Big UN vote Tommorow
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2004, 19:24:03 »
Fair enough, however if you read the diaries and memoirs of the revolutions main players, prior to the big blowup, you'll find that they were equally critical of the USSR as being as imperialist as the "Yankee agressor"
Which supports, I believe, my theory that they were in fact pushed into bed with the Soviets more so than willingly jumping in.
To be fair, the only diary I've read is (the other) Che's, and that was well before his Cuba days ... I do find this hard to swallow as Castro's official diplomatic and military alliance with the USSR coincided with nationalization of the economy (at the time the US was still trying to get him 'onside') and thus preceeded any kind of US "push" (unless they somehow time-travelled and did it retroactively): the only reasonable interpretation is that Castro was pushing-away the US at Moscow's behest (or at the VERY least endorsement).  A good chunk of Castro's raison d'etre was to distance Cuba from the US ... the US had too much investment in the country to try to "push" Castro to the Soviets (not to mention that whole communism in their backyard thing).  Rather ironic that the two main selling features of the revolution were the dictatorship of Batista and economic dependence on the US, which within a couple of years were replaced with the dictatorship of Castro and economic dependence on the USSR ...

And don't think that it was purely communist ideology that brought the Soviets and the Cubans together: it's been argued by many that without continued Sino-Soviet conflict the Cold War would have been lost to communism.


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Actually good ole Juan the bartender probably has got a good look at Africa that is if he's over 30-35.
To get work in a hotel/resort there you must show proof of completion of national service. Anyone in that age group probably got a free all inclusive vacation in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Angola or other charming spots compliments of the Bearded one whose name is never mentioned aloud amongst the companeros.
HEH!

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You get the feeling that Senor Galt may have spent a little time there too amigo and not at the all inclusive swim up bar either?
Yeah, a little ... never even made it to Varadero or any of the other hotspots, though (Damn!).
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.