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Electoral Reform (Senate, Commons, & Gov Gen)

What do you want to see?


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"Working together with a purpose in common, the 11 viceregal representatives — with the Governor General as first among equals — exercise powers that flow from the Sovereign," the document states. "Operating in their own jurisdictions, they personally represent the Queen and perform most of the functions assigned to her as our head of state."

From the article above this quote struck me.

It is not particularly germaine to the electoral reform discussion but it does shed an interesting light on the discussion about the "proper" relation of the Federal and Provincial Governments.  If the Federal Governor is Co-Equal with the Provincial Governors then surely the Federal Government which advises the Federal Governor and executes her wishes is Co-Equal with the Provincial Governments which advise and the Provincial Governors and execute their wishes......all on behalf of Her Majesty, the ultimate adjudicator and authority.
 
This from Global/National Post:
Prime Minister Stephen Harper has sent a clear message to Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean that she should not call herself Canada's head of state.

"Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada and Head of State," the Prime Minister's Office said in a statement issued to Canwest News Service on Thursday. "The Governor General represents the Crown in Canada."

The extraordinary reminder from the country's head of government to its top viceregal representative follows an uproar over Jean's use of the phrase "head of state" when referring to herself during a speech in Paris on Monday.

(....)

The statement issued Thursday by Harper's office struck one expert — constitutional expert David Smith, University of Saskatchewan professor emeritus of political science — as history-making.

"I can't recall that ever happening before," said Smith, now at the University of Regina and co-editor of the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of Canadian Politics.

But he added it was a welcome move by the Prime Minister's Office because "there seems to be a misunderstanding on the part of Rideau Hall as to the constitutional position of the Governor General under our system."

Monarchist League chairman Robert Finch also applauded Harper for promptly and directly addressing the issue.

"While I am sorry to see that this story has detracted from the 'feel-good' news about the upcoming royal homecoming of the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall, it is refreshing to see the Prime Minister of Canada, the Governor General's principal adviser, make such a clear statement," said Finch. "I hope this puts an end to the silly notion that the Governor General is head of state — de facto or otherwise."

(...)

Rideau Hall declined to comment on the PMO statement.

A Rideau Hall spokesperson had stated Wednesday that Jean's reference to being head of state was justified: "As the representative of the Crown in Canada, the Governor General carries out the duties of head of state, and therefore is de facto head of state."

Rideau Hall had also said the "head of state" reference was acceptable because of a 1947 agreement in which the "letters patent of King George VI" — Queen Elizabeth's father — "transferred all the duties of head of state of Canada to the Governor General."

With this from the GG's web page:
Our system of government is a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy. Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada and Head of State. Sworn in on September 27, 2005, the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean, 27th Governor General since Confederation, represents the Crown in Canada and carries out the duties of head of State.
 
I said it before in here and got crapped on for it, but I'll say it again.

The whole GG, monarch, thinger ma bobster idea, needs to go.
 
ballz said:
I said it before in here and got crapped on for it, but I'll say it again.

The whole GG, monarch, thinger ma bobster idea, needs to go.

:nod:
 
Folks, if you want to reprise that particular discussion, go read and then join the relevant thread.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
Perhaps a MOD could move this entire thread to here.

In the interim: This leads us into tricky constitutional terrain and especially into the unwritten part of our Constitution, referred to in the very first part:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/1.html#anchorbo-ga:s_1
Whereas the Provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick have expressed their Desire to be federally united into One Dominion under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, with a Constitution similar in Principle to that of the United Kingdom ... [9.] The Executive Government and Authority of and over Canada is hereby declared to continue and be vested in the Queen ...  [10.] The Provisions of this Act referring to the Governor General extend and apply to the Governor General for the Time being of Canada, or other the Chief Executive Officer or Administrator for the Time being carrying on the Government of Canada on behalf and in the Name of the Queen, by whatever Title he is designated.

The constitution of the United Kingdom is where the powers of the Queen (effectively, according to Bagehot, the rights to be consulted, to encourage and to warn) are “defined” and that Constitution is wholly (and very sensibly) unwritten. Bagehot (whose book The English Constitution is still regarded as an authoritative reference) also identified three occasions when the monarch (or the GG) might exercise real, (and so called residual) political power:

1. At the formation of a new administration;

2. During its continuance – which is when the three “rights” come into play; and

3. At its break-up.

We have seen, just recently, the GG exercise her powers in all three situations, (including, especially, her decision (during the coalition crisis in Dec 08) to prorogue parliament). We should not “see” the GG exercising her rights with regard to her government. Those rights are best exercised in private – perhaps they can only be exercised, effectively, in private.

The GG and the provincial lieutenant governors are, indeed, co-equals because Her Majesty is indivisible. The sovereign “exists” in three forms:

1. For the legislative function (Parliament/Legislature) she is “The Queen in Parliament” and enacts (makes) the laws;

2. For the executive function (the cabinets and governments) she is “The Queen in Council” and executes the laws (governs); and

3. For the judicial function (the courts) is “The Queen on the Bench” and interprets the laws.

The sovereign does all these things, all the time, but she does them through her alter egos, the governor general and the lieutenant governors who are, therefore, co-equals.

But the fact that the governor general and the lieutenant governors are co-equals does not, in any way, imply that the nation and its constituent parts (the provinces) are co-equal. It is clear in our Constitution (§91 and §92) that each level of government has its own areas of jurisdiction but Canada qua Canada is more than a collection of independent provinces it is a formal, legal confederation in which the whole IS greater than the sum of its parts.

Constitutionally (referring to the unwritten part) the sovereign is both:

Formally, the state itself – and we are her “subjects;” and

• The personification of the nation – she represents all of us to the state, “she” is “us” and she, therefore, in a ‘funny’ way, she represents us to herself.

In practice our constitutional system allows us, politically, to separate the nation from the state. Some of us may thoroughly detest the government-of-the-day, Her Majesty’s Government, for wholly partisan, political reasons, but this does not, in any way, excuse any of us from doing our duty to Her Majesty, our sovereign.
 
Great summary Mr Campbell.

However, couldn't help but giggle after reading the line:
The GG and the provincial lieutenant governors are, indeed, co-equals because Her Majesty is indivisible. The sovereign “exists” in three forms:
Sounds very Catholic - like the Holy Trinity....  ;D

cheers,
Frank
 
At 6-ish this morning, you'd find this at the GG's roles & responsibilities page (PDF also attached, marked "Before")

The original link here now brings up this message:
Error 404

Page not found

The site has been redesigned.

You may want to revise the bookmarks
that refer to our site.

We have been advised of the error.

Return to the Home page

Contact the webmaster
Erreur 404

La page est introuvable.

Notre site a été reconstruit.

Vous devrez revoir les signets
qui réfèrent à notre site.

Nous avons été avisé de cette erreur.

Retourner à la page d'accueil

Communiquer avec le webmestre

Never fear, though, because now there's a new, improved roles & responsibilities page here:
.... The Crown is a legal body or institution through which the head of State caries out his or her duties. Our head of State is placed above the government. The head of State does not exercise political authority and is non partisan.

The Canadian Constitution (Constitution Act, 1867) places executive power in the Crown. However, in practice this power is exercised by the federal government. The governor general therefore acts on the advice of the prime minister and the government but has the right to be consulted, to encourage, to warn and to meet with them on a regular basis. Although free to refuse such advice, the Crown normally accepts by convention and sanctions bills to give them the force of law. In other words, the governor general provides formal consent to the government’s intentions and ensures its continuity ....

More about this in MSM here.
 
A buddy of mine earned the enduring nickname Corps Envelopement because when conducting a section attack he decided to go "flanking"  and flanked so wide he was half way to Fredricton before he returned to the Range.

First reaction - well there goes the election.
Second reaction - the Quebecers will be back in the Liberal/Bloc fold in no times flat
Third reaction - the Liberals will be looking at this as an opportunity for the election
Fourth reaction - the NDP: Socialists or Monarchists?  Unclear.
Fifth reaction - Harper's stand is strong beer for much of his base
Sixth reaction - Is this chosen ground for an election?
 
Or, there could be machinations at work to replace Ms Jean.

Personally, I'd like to see the Queen appoint the GG from a list of potential candidates supplied by the PM. I think that if HM is going to devolve some of her powers then she has the right to have a personal stake in who they are devolved to.
 
Jungle said:
... I don't mind the monarchy, but I'm not a fan of it.
I am a staunch federalist, but I would like to see a Canadian republic after the current monarch's reign.  :cdn:

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail web site, are Norman Spector’s (well informed, he was Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Mulroney and was also a very senior bureaucrat and diplomat) views:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/spector-vision/fixing-a-constitutional-grey-area/article1319854/
Fixing a constitutional grey area

Norman Spector

Saturday, October 10, 2009

The spat between Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Governor-General Michaëlle Jean that’s in the headlines is not about ego or strained interpersonal relations. Nor is it about some arcane constitutional niceties that are of interest principally to the dwindling number of passionate monarchists in Canada. Rather, behind the semantic dispute over the correct description of Her Excellency’s Office, lies a debate about power — real power — and a potential constitutional crisis.

In both Canada and Britain, the Head of State hires and can fire the prime minister. That’s no problem in the U.K., where no one questions that the Royal Family is completely above politics. And, as part of its duties, the Royal Family takes great care to school those in the line of succession in the constitutional aspects of the job.

In Canada, by contrast, the prime minister in effect hires the Governor-General through his prerogative of advising the Queen. There is no prohibition on appointing political partisans to the position. Nor is there a requirement that the Governor-General know much about the constitution, or even about the country.

Over the years there has been considerable discussion of finding a better way to appoint the Governor-General, but these discussions have come to naught. Fortunately, until now, we’ve been able to avoid the constitutional crisis that is latent in our current arrangements.

That could very well have changed during last fall’s coalition shenanigans.

According to U of T historian Michael Bliss, “if Stephen Harper’s government had lost a confidence vote in Parliament and the governor general had denied Harper a request to dissolve Parliament to test Canadians’ opinion on whether they supported a coalition based on a legislative agreement with a separatist party, Harper would very properly have concluded that the governor general was behaving unconstitutionally. His recourse would have been to insist that she be dismissed from office by Queen Elizabeth II. There is no possibility that the Queen could deny such a request from her Canadian prime minister.”

I’m not certain of the latter. However, it is clear that we would have had a bloody mess on our hands had the Queen of England (as she is also known) been called on to settle a Canadian domestic political dispute as Professor Bliss suggests. As we would have, had Ms. Jean transferred power to the coalition without an election.

Experts will differ on the constitutionality of the two alternative courses of action for resolving the dispute. Both, however, would have been seen by many Canadians to be illegitimate. Which means that we had better turn our minds to fixing this grey area of our constitution, before we are ever again confronted with a dispute over who will govern this country.


I think Prof. Bliss is exactly right. Her Majesty is constitutionally bound to accept the advice of her prime minister, even when it might come to firing her own representative for crass, partisan political reasons, but the PM is also bound to hear, if not heed, her advice and warnings – and she would certainly have some for him.

The issue becomes the selection and appointment of the GG.

I do not believe that HM ought to have anything except the most formal role in that. It must, in my opinion be a 100% Canadian decision – made in Canada by Canadians.

The constitutional duty to advise the sovereign on who she should (must, actually) appoint to the office of GG lies with the prime minister, but there is no reason why (s)he cannot, perhaps even should not delegate the nominating process to, just for example, the Senate of Canada. Or the PM might do the nominating and then allow another agency to elect the person he would, eventually, recommend for appointment.

No one should be excluded from consideration for being GG, but appointing superannuated political hacks should be avoided.

Of course, the current contretemps does bring us back to the reality that our, Canadian, head-of-state is someone we “share” with several other countries and she, a most admirable woman in all respects, has a full time job in the United Kingdom.

Personally I wish we had a bornlives-in-Canada head-of-state, a de jure rather than just a de facto Canadian head of the Canadian state. I don’t mind sharing Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth with the Aussies, Brits and Kiwis but I hope she might be our last non-resident head-of-state.

But there’s a problem. The form of our state, a constitutional monarchy with the current British sovereign as monarch, is defined in our Canadian Constitution and it is defined in one of the parts that cannot be amended without the unanimous agreement of all the provinces and the federal parliament. The late Prime Minister Trudeau lamented that in constitutional negotiations the provinces were inclined to “trade rights for fish”. Can you even begin to imagine what they would want to trade for a reshaping of the very essence of the state?

But, as I have said before, there is a way.

Parliament could pass a resolution – not an Act of Parliament or a “law,” per se, just a resolution that expresses its opinion – rather like the Nickle Resolution that requested that the sovereign (actually the British government) stop granting honours (knighthoods and titles) to Canadians.

While the Nickle Resolution passed the House of Commons it never went father – not even to the Senate (where it was almost certain to be defeated) and it never resulted in anything being sent to London. But it served its purpose. It expressed the will of the elected House of Commons – the only will that, even in 1919, mattered in Canada and the only will that, even a dozen years prior to the Statutes of Westminster, bound the King of Canada.

A similar expression of the will of the Canadian House of Commons, the only elected national political will available to our good Queen, saying that we did not accept, for the Throne of Canada, the rules of succession of the United Kingdom – based, just for the sake of argument, on the anti-Catholic bias in the Act of Settlement of 1701 – would bind the entire British Royal Family.

Based on that resolution, that parliamentary opinion, when, as she must, sadly, Her Majesty dies, we would not proclaim anyone to be our monarch. We would still be a constitutional monarchy and the Throne of Canada would still be the “property” of the British Royal Family but “we,” Canada as represented by our parliament, and they, the Brit Royals, would be unsure of just which Royal ought to have it. Into the vacuum steps the Governor General of Canada who, de facto becomes the Regent of Canada, too. We would have a regency; now regencies are meant to be temporary, interim things but nothing says we ever have to resolve our monarchical dilemma. We could, almost certainly would, in our own good time, develop our own, made-in-Canada way to select our de facto head-of-state, but (s)he wouldn’t get the job by divine right any more.

I think it provides a constitutional way to square the circle.


 
Edward,

I sense a Constitutional Conference in the making:

Current GG declaring herself de facto Head of State and PM demurs;
PM pushing for demographic redistribution in the Commons but Quebec demurs;
PM pushing for redistribution of powers between Commons and Senate but Quebec, Ontario and the Maritimes demur;
Senate constantly, (hamfistedly?) sets itself up as a target for reformers
Quebec constantly pushing for devolution of powers fiscal but Ontario demurs (until acquiescing on the HST).
Most Western Provinces and Territories are/seem to be on side with some form of Constitutional Change.....

By the way, I agree with you in all of your above particulars beyond this one singular:  God Save The Queen (and the heirs and successors to which I, and I believe you as well, pledged fealty) ;D.

Edit: PS - we are adrift from the topic but all of these issues; constitution, election, Ignatieff, the Liberals, the direction of Canada..... all seem to be drifting on the breeze just now.
 
One of the things that both Adrienne Clarkson and Michaëlle Jean have shown us is that we are better served when the GG is a good communicator. Another is the GG should be a people person – someone who is comfortable in his/her own “skin” and makes other comfortable. The GG must be bilingual, of course. The GG should have a record of service to Canada. (S)he should be someone to whom we can all look up, someone we would like our children to emulate.

So, how about:

RickHillierinFatigues.jpg


He’d be economical, too; he’s got his own uniform.
 
Would we have to change the GG's standard from the Lion to a Cod?
 
Kirkhill said:
Edward,

I sense a Constitutional Conference in the making:

Current GG declaring herself de facto Head of State and PM demurs;
PM pushing for demographic redistribution in the Commons but Quebec demurs;
PM pushing for redistribution of powers between Commons and Senate but Quebec, Ontario and the Maritimes demur;
Senate constantly, (hamfistedly?) sets itself up as a target for reformers
Quebec constantly pushing for devolution of powers fiscal but Ontario demurs (until acquiescing on the HST).
Most Western Provinces and Territories are/seem to be on side with some form of Constitutional Change.....

By the way, I agree with you in all of your above particulars beyond this one singular:  God Save The Queen (and the heirs and successors to which I, and I believe you as well, pledged fealty) ;D.


No one in their right mind wants a constitutional conference.

I do, just for the fun of it, but that does not negate the "no one in his right mind" remark.

There is no political will in Canada for such a thing and no Canadian leader has enough political capital to bring the requisite will to the fore.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
One of the things that both Adrienne Clarkson and Michaëlle Jean have shown us is that we are better served when the GG is a good communicator. Another is the GG should be a people person – someone who is comfortable in his/her own “skin” and makes other comfortable. The GG must be bilingual, of course. The GG should have a record of service to Canada. (S)he should be someone to whom we can all look up, someone we would like our children to emulate.

So, how about:

RickHillierinFatigues.jpg


He’d be economical, too; he’s got his own uniform.


The current GG's seven year term expires in 2012.
 
Please, no.

The man does not take advice, ignores established rules, regulations and precedence, enacts really stupid ideas...

In short, he displays the qualities we see in Parliamentarians, and not those we'd want in a GG.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
No one in their right mind wants a constitutional conference.

I do, just for the fun of it, but that does not negate the "no one in his right mind" remark.

Notwithstanding the first assertion Edward, I think there is a real possibility of it being "forced".  In which case jollity will ensue. 

As I said earlier there is an awful lot of "stuff" drifting along out there and sometimes that makes for accidents..... in this case it would be an accident that might be put to good use IF you were of a mind to re-order the power structure.  Jus' sayin'.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
No one in their right mind wants a constitutional conference.

I do, just for the fun of it, but that does not negate the "no one in his right mind" remark.

There is no political will in Canada for such a thing and no Canadian leader has enough political capital to bring the requisite will to the fore.

The mind boggles at the prospect of another go at the constitution, or at the prospect of redefining the role or method of selection of the GG. Having suffered through the Charlottetown Accord (not the Conference of 1864), where the likes of Joe Clarke and Judy Rebick attempted to reorder Canada, I doubt that a solution that can gain acceptance from sea to sea to sea is dobable.

Yes, there are all sorts of faults and fault lines in the present system, and plenty of people of ill will more than willing to exploit them. Watch and see how difficult a task the perfectly legal and constitutional distribution of seats based on population growth and patterns will be. Technically it is simple; practically it would take a majority government with its power base in the areas that would see their seats increased to pull it off without flinching. Even then, it still would be very, very untidy, especially if it was being perceived as a slight to old Canada east of the Ottawa River.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Perhaps a MOD could move this entire thread to here.

In the interim: This leads us into tricky constitutional terrain and especially into the unwritten part of our Constitution, referred to in the very first part:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/1.html#anchorbo-ga:s_1
The constitution of the United Kingdom is where the powers of the Queen (effectively, according to Bagehot, the rights to be consulted, to encourage and to warn) are “defined” and that Constitution is wholly (and very sensibly) unwritten. Bagehot (whose book The English Constitution is still regarded as an authoritative reference) also identified three occasions when the monarch (or the GG) might exercise real, (and so called residual) political power:

1. At the formation of a new administration;

2. During its continuance – which is when the three “rights” come into play; and

3. At its break-up.

We have seen, just recently, the GG exercise her powers in all three situations, (including, especially, her decision (during the coalition crisis in Dec 08) to prorogue parliament). We should not “see” the GG exercising her rights with regard to her government. Those rights are best exercised in private – perhaps they can only be exercised, effectively, in private.

The GG and the provincial lieutenant governors are, indeed, co-equals because Her Majesty is indivisible. The sovereign “exists” in three forms:

1. For the legislative function (Parliament/Legislature) she is “The Queen in Parliament” and enacts (makes) the laws;

2. For the executive function (the cabinets and governments) she is “The Queen in Council” and executes the laws (governs); and

3. For the judicial function (the courts) is “The Queen on the Bench” and interprets the laws.

The sovereign does all these things, all the time, but she does them through her alter egos, the governor general and the lieutenant governors who are, therefore, co-equals.

But the fact that the governor general and the lieutenant governors are co-equals does not, in any way, imply that the nation and its constituent parts (the provinces) are co-equal. It is clear in our Constitution (§91 and §92) that each level of government has its own areas of jurisdiction but Canada qua Canada is more than a collection of independent provinces it is a formal, legal confederation in which the whole IS greater than the sum of its parts.

Constitutionally (referring to the unwritten part) the sovereign is both:

Formally, the state itself – and we are her “subjects;” and

• The personification of the nation – she represents all of us to the state, “she” is “us” and she, therefore, in a ‘funny’ way, she represents us to herself.

In practice our constitutional system allows us, politically, to separate the nation from the state. Some of us may thoroughly detest the government-of-the-day, Her Majesty’s Government, for wholly partisan, political reasons, but this does not, in any way, excuse any of us from doing our duty to Her Majesty, our sovereign.


In the above you define the Sovereign as "The Queen in Parliament", "The Queen in Council",  "The Queen on the Bench".  I think you might have added "The Queen at the head of her Army"  except that the Queen has no army even though her Colonial Governors are Commanders - in - Chief of their Armies.

The  Governor General's site makes (woops made - the site is currently being redesigned again as of 8:08am Mountain Time), reference to the Crown as representing the State because she is Head of State.

I think/believe that all of those assertions are incorrect on similar grounds.  Since 1689 the Monarch has had no supremacy over Parliament or the Army nor over the Bench.  And she has had steadily diminished authority even in Council.  All of those institutions have progressively become the preserve of the demos and are, at least in theory (de jure or de facto) subject to civilian control.

I think that the statement the Crown represents the State errs.  I believe that it would be truer to see the Crown as the embodiment of the Nation with the Queen earning the Dantonesque title of First Citizen or the First of the Demos.  In Britain that position would probably not be as remarkable as it is here because patently the Queen does not connect with Canadians to the extent she connects with Brits, and even there her connection is "imperfect".

However, if we see Her Majesty as First Citizen then we see the Demos in authority over Parliament, over the Executive, over the Bench and over the Army, thus preserving intact the concept of Civilian Control. 

I suggest further that the Governor General and the Lieutenant Governors, as appointees of the Sovereign are in effect appointees of the Demos and thus, in effect nothing more than the most senior Civil Servants in the land.

So, in my view, the Queen, Elizabeth II, acting as Sovereign and Head of State with authority over Parliament,  Council, Bench and Army, and backed by the legitimacy of the Demos, would be an awesome and terrifying prospect.  The convoluted and misbegotten beauty of our system is that she is all of those things and had vestigial powers in all of those areas but has real authority over none.  Her role, perhaps analogously, could be likened to the President of the United States being told he has but one opportunity to influence events in the US - to press a button releasing all the Nation's nuclear assets in the event he doesn't like the direction discussions are going.  Beyond that he can only advise and warn in private.  But absent a credible threat he has no real leverage.  Likewise with Her Majesty, unless she is willing to "blow up" the entire system and hope to be in a position to conduct a reorg with the remnants (a process that some of my management has tried in the past), she has no credible method of influencing the debate. 

Effectively she becomes a virtual locus around which all the other power players circle playing out their interminable games. She exists but does not exist.  She referees but has no whistle.  She is necessary but superfluous. 

With Her, or the institution of the Crown broadly, we have a system that works, even if haltingly at times.  Without Her we have to invent Her......

And if we invent Her we run the risk of putting in her place someone who actually thinks that the powers of the Monarch, (Head of State, Sovereign, supreme in Parliament, Governance, the Bench and Commander - in - Chief,  possessor of the Button,) are theirs to use..... especially if legitimated by direct election by the Demos.

I would far rather have an illegitimate Monarch with constrained powers as figurehead of the Nation than a legitimated Monarch/Monarch Pro Tem/President/Governor-General with all the forces of the State at their beck and call.


 
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