Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Kirkhill]

Concept for Ice-Resistant Offshore Terminal for Arctic LNG Export

Cost and delivery of long-distance natural gas pipelines to a distant liquefaction facility at a warm-water port has become excessive, and environmental restraints have been increasing. An alternative is an offshore ice-resistant LNG port accommodating a new class of LNG transport vessels.

jpt.spe.org

 

[QV]

Kirkhill for Minister of Economic Development.

 

[lenaitch]

I love the passion but you really need to see the places that you envision as deepwater ocean ports. First, most are not on the Bay, they are upstream on shallow silt-laden deltas, just like Moosonee. Peawanuk is 35 kilometers upriver. I don't know the reason they are not actually on the bay, I can only guess it was protection from the wind, waves and tides. Many suffer from seasonal flooding. They don't have wharves, they have docks, for tin boats. I'm not aware of anything that would be considered an anchorage. Yes, they have tank farms, for their own diesel and gas consumption, and the diesel will be winding down to vehicle needs as the current project to tie them to electrical grid move forward.

I would think if it had been determined to be more economical to supply these communities by sealift vs. ice roads and aircraft they would have already done it. I would think if the Ring of Fire developers had seen merit in moving their product to a much closer potential Hudson's Bay port, they would have explored it.

I see no potential for any of these communities being home to seagoing vessels, let alone Pamamax and above, no matter how much government money was shovelled at the project (and yes, it would be public money, private money's absence speaks for itself). I understand diversity, but we already have a deep water commercial port at Churchill, and it struggles to remain viable.

BTW - we have more than one east-west rail line.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-funding-oil-gas-hudson-bay-1.6928302

Manitoba considers building 2nd port on Hudson Bay, sidelining Port of Churchill​

NeeStaNan project would allow potash, petroleum products from across Prairies to be shipped through Arctic​

Bartley Kives · CBC News · Posted: Aug 04, 2023 6:24 PM MDT | Last Updated: August 4, 2023

Manitoba is exploring the idea of building a second deepwater port on Hudson Bay as part of a plan to ship potash from Saskatchewan and petroleum products from Alberta through the Arctic Ocean.

The NeeStaNan project, which could also involve a rail line or pipeline to carry bitumen or natural gas, would relegate the existing deepwater facility at the Port of Churchill to a regional supply hub, Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure Minister Doyle Piwniuk said Friday in an interview.

The provincial support for the shipping corridor and port proposal also has the federal government stressing the strategic importance of the Port of Churchill, the recipient of almost $300 million worth of federal and provincial investment in recent years.

NeeStaNan's backers, however, said the transhipment of commodities through Hudson Bay could bolster exports from all three Prairie provinces and provide an economic development windfall for Indigenous communities located along the shipping route.

"The port and corridor will be 100 per cent Indigenous owned," said Robyn Lore, a NeeStaNan director based in Calgary.

Lore, an entrepreneur with a background in energy and agriculture, said his company NeeStaNan Projects Inc. is set up to determine the feasibility of the project.

• Province kicks in $73M, feds up to $60M to upgrade northern Manitoba railway line

On Thursday, Manitoba announced it will contribute $6.7 million to study the NeeStaNan's feasibility, provided Alberta and Saskatchewan cover the remainder of the $26-million study cost.

Piwniuk said NeeStaNan would complement the Port of Churchill but largely consign it to serving as a regional as opposed to international port.

"We got a lot of supplies that go up to the north to Churchill. That can still be a distribution centre," Piwniuk said Friday in a telephone interview from Medicine Hat, Alta.

"This is an opportunity to look at other natural resources that can come to Hudson Bay. And this is what feasibility study is going to be … where [is] the best place to locate this possible port?"

Prior to the sale of Rupert's Land the major beneficiaries of trade were the Inuit and the Cree.

The Inuit traded directly with the HBC. The Cree both traded directly from their own lands and also profited from trading with the interior tribes and nations.

....

Liverpool, Bristol, London, every Dutch port and Danish port are accessed through flats, sandbars and rivers. All require extensive dredging to maintain.

 

[Kirkhill]

From the above article....

Environmental organizations, meanwhile, panned the idea of shipping petroleum products out of Hudson Bay.

"The idea of putting bitumen into Hudson Bay is a terrible idea. There's just no way that Hudson Bay can handle a bitumen spill or a cleanup," said Eric Reder, a campaigner for the Wilderness Committee in Winnipeg.

Reder said when the idea of shipping oil by rail through Churchill arose during Stephen Harper's time as Canada's prime minister, officials were advised it would take three days for cleanup crews based in Quebec City to respond to a spill in Hudson Bay.

By that time, Reder said, the strong tides in the bay would have dispersed oil to the point where it could not be collected.

That may be just about the dumbest excuse for not doing anything I have ever heard.

More jobs for the locals on the Bay. Environmental spill response should be a local responsibility. Local crews and local vessels.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Port of Churchill debate: unpacking oil promises | The Narwhal

Pierre Poilievre is eyeing the Port of Churchill as a way to increase fossil fuel exports. Here’s what you need to know about the complicated reality of his plan

thenarwhal.ca

 

[daftandbarmy]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-funding-oil-gas-hudson-bay-1.6928302

View attachment 85205
Prior to the sale of Rupert's Land the major beneficiaries of trade were the Inuit and the Cree.

The Inuit traded directly with the HBC. The Cree both traded directly from their own lands and also profited from trading with the interior tribes and nations.

....

Liverpool, Bristol, London, every Dutch port and Danish port are accessed through flats, sandbars and rivers. All require extensive dredging to maintain.

Why not just invest the cash in upgrading our rickety, but currently operational, supply chain capacity through improving roads, rail corridors and port facilities?

 

[Kirkhill]

Why not just invest the cash in upgrading our rickety, but currently operational, supply chain capacity through improving roads, rail corridors and port facilities?

You mean like harden the existing Moosonee and Churchill railways and use them to support the construction of pipelines in parallel to the existing rails?

And improve the existing port at Churchill? I still think that a Moosonee terminal might be worth looking at, even if it has to be a few kilometers off shore.

 

[Kirkhill]

Why not just invest the cash in upgrading our rickety, but currently operational, supply chain capacity through improving roads, rail corridors and port facilities?

I'm guessing that this might have something to do with it.

"The port and corridor will be 100 per cent Indigenous owned," said Robyn Lore, a NeeStaNan director based in Calgary.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm guessing that this might have something to do with it.

Um... maybe.... but there are much bigger issues that seem to be playing second fiddle to shiny new battery plants etc :

Canada’s transportation supply chains are near breaking point​

Just over a hundred days have now passed since the Supply Chain Task Force’s independent report to the federal government indicated that “Canada’s transportation supply chain is nearing its breaking point.” And even though task forces are typically established to urgently address a problem in need of a solution, Canadian businesses are still waiting on concrete action to improve the transportation infrastructure and supply chains that serve as a cornerstone of our economy.

From the global pandemic to the wildfires and flooding in British Columbia, to physical disruptions due to blockades and strikes, our transportation system has suffered severe disruptions — some preventable and some unavoidable — that have stretched it beyond its limits.

The issue has only escalated, and we’ve run out of time. According to the latest Canadian Survey on Business Conditions Report, nearly a quarter of businesses continue to struggle to get the goods they need, putting operations and growth at risk. To position Canada as a strong competitor and reliable trading partner to our allies and grow our economy, the government must join forces with industry stakeholders to address the transportation supply chain crisis.

The path forward is clear.

First, while government isn’t solely responsible for infrastructure investment, its leadership is critical. A federal commitment to major, strategic, long-term investments is key to building Canada’s trade infrastructure – a crucial consideration as the government deliberates its next budget.

Canada’s transportation supply chains are near breaking point | Business Council of Canada

A published in the Financial Post Just over a hundred days have now passed since the Supply Chain Task Force’s independent report to the federal government indicated that “Canada’s transportation supply chain is nearing its breaking point.” And even though […]

thebusinesscouncil.ca

 

[PrairieFella]

Um... maybe.... but there are much bigger issues that seem to be playing second fiddle to shiny new battery plants etc :

Canada’s transportation supply chains are near breaking point​

Just over a hundred days have now passed since the Supply Chain Task Force’s independent report to the federal government indicated that “Canada’s transportation supply chain is nearing its breaking point.” And even though task forces are typically established to urgently address a problem in need of a solution, Canadian businesses are still waiting on concrete action to improve the transportation infrastructure and supply chains that serve as a cornerstone of our economy.

From the global pandemic to the wildfires and flooding in British Columbia, to physical disruptions due to blockades and strikes, our transportation system has suffered severe disruptions — some preventable and some unavoidable — that have stretched it beyond its limits.

The issue has only escalated, and we’ve run out of time. According to the latest Canadian Survey on Business Conditions Report, nearly a quarter of businesses continue to struggle to get the goods they need, putting operations and growth at risk. To position Canada as a strong competitor and reliable trading partner to our allies and grow our economy, the government must join forces with industry stakeholders to address the transportation supply chain crisis.

The path forward is clear.

First, while government isn’t solely responsible for infrastructure investment, its leadership is critical. A federal commitment to major, strategic, long-term investments is key to building Canada’s trade infrastructure – a crucial consideration as the government deliberates its next budget.

Canada’s transportation supply chains are near breaking point | Business Council of Canada

A published in the Financial Post Just over a hundred days have now passed since the Supply Chain Task Force’s independent report to the federal government indicated that “Canada’s transportation supply chain is nearing its breaking point.” And even though […]

thebusinesscouncil.ca

Transportation networks which by default are mostly outside the GTA are not a government priority...shocker.

 

[Rudburg]

Transportation networks which by default are mostly outside the GTA are not a government priority...shocker.

I don't know how often you drive through the GTA, but let me tell you, it isn't pretty there either.

And don't get me started on that airport. I would rather let FedEx fly me as cargo.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The lack of interest in Ontario's North is utterly shocking. No other Province was better setup in the 1970-80's to push north, but they utterly failed to do so. I give credit to Quebec in having better Northern infrastructure than Ontario.

 

[Kirkhill]

The lack of interest in Ontario's North is utterly shocking. No other Province was better setup in the 1970-80's to push north, but they utterly failed to do so. I give credit to Quebec in having better Northern infrastructure than Ontario.

I'd say it was worse than not pushing north. I'd say they retreated from the north in the 70s.

Places like Hearst, Cochrane, Cobalt, Kapuskasing, even Sudbury, were active growth centres in the 50s and 60s.

Our neighbour in Peterboro was an Ontario Hydro lineman who emigrated from Belfast to Cochrane before being pulled back dow south.

 

[lenaitch]

The lack of interest in Ontario's North is utterly shocking. No other Province was better setup in the 1970-80's to push north, but they utterly failed to do so. I give credit to Quebec in having better Northern infrastructure than Ontario.

Ontario pretty much ignores everything north of Steeles Ave. Quebec has certainly developed their portion of the Clay Belt more than Ontario. In terms of their far north, the geography is much more 'mountainous' which favoured large-scale hydro-electric development.

In order for the province to 'push north', there has to be an economic reason. A resource-based economy is, by nature, boom and bust. The day the first shaft is driven in a mine, its shut-down clock starts. Whether they start at all depends on world prices for whatever they are digging for. Forestry is market driven. Ontario newsprint pulp fed much of North America, but there isn't the same market for newsprint and even fine paper is taking a hit. Sawmills are still viable but face a lot of competition from both the US and overseas. Most of the pressure treated lumber in the US is Southern Yellow Pine, which grows larger and faster in their climate. In Ontario, the further north you go, the smaller the trees get.

In order for an economy to exist to attract people, it needs to be near either raw materials or market. It's certainly not near market and many companies have found that raw materials can be cheaper from offshore.

Even for the towns that still have a mill or a mine, moves towards automation mean the workforce shrinks. For new mines, gone are the days of a new town springing up beside it; the government simply won't allow it as they are stuck with a town when the mine inevitably shuts down. Better transportation and shift scheduling means crews can come from greater distances. The number of people to operate a mine these days is relatively small compared to earlier times. The big manpower crunch is in the development phase, and that is usually done by contract companies who come in temporarily then move on.

It is a quirk of geology that places like Sudbury, Timmins and Kirkland Lake have remained productive as long as they have.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The really funny part is how hard Ontario fought to get and keep Northern Ontario in the late 19th century. Manitoba and Ontario were scrapping over a huge section of territory. .
It ended with the whole mess ending in front of the Law Lords in England deciding on it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ontario pretty much ignores everything north of Steeles Ave. Quebec has certainly developed their portion of the Clay Belt more than Ontario. In terms of their far north, the geography is much more 'mountainous' which favoured large-scale hydro-electric development.

In order for the province to 'push north', there has to be an economic reason. A resource-based economy is, by nature, boom and bust. The day the first shaft is driven in a mine, its shut-down clock starts. Whether they start at all depends on world prices for whatever they are digging for. Forestry is market driven. Ontario newsprint pulp fed much of North America, but there isn't the same market for newsprint and even fine paper is taking a hit. Sawmills are still viable but face a lot of competition from both the US and overseas. Most of the pressure treated lumber in the US is Southern Yellow Pine, which grows larger and faster in their climate. In Ontario, the further north you go, the smaller the trees get.

In order for an economy to exist to attract people, it needs to be near either raw materials or market. It's certainly not near market and many companies have found that raw materials can be cheaper from offshore.

Even for the towns that still have a mill or a mine, moves towards automation mean the workforce shrinks. For new mines, gone are the days of a new town springing up beside it; the government simply won't allow it as they are stuck with a town when the mine inevitably shuts down. Better transportation and shift scheduling means crews can come from greater distances. The number of people to operate a mine these days is relatively small compared to earlier times. The big manpower crunch is in the development phase, and that is usually done by contract companies who come in temporarily then move on.

It is a quirk of geology that places like Sudbury, Timmins and Kirkland Lake have remained productive as long as they have.

I spent about 20 years reviewing big projects so I do get the economic angle. However it's also a chicken and egg thing. Without infrastructure, there is no or little opportunity. In B.C. we had a number of premiers especially WAC Bennet who understood this and invested a lot in infrastructure, which continues to pay dividends to this day. In example I reviewed one project that managed to punch 60km of road into virgin territory. That project eventually died. But 4 other projects are using that road and extending it and will eventually come to market.

 

[Kirkhill]

Chester - Caster - Roman military camp
Wich - Vicus - the town of camp followers that grew up around the military camp.

The Road was the reason for the Caster. Roads were pushed forwards to extract resources and to impose order. The casters were built to secure the Roads. The Vica grew up organically, exploiting the casters, the roads, the traffic and the markets to which the roads (and ports) connected.

The legions left.

Chester, Colchester, Winchester and Worcester all still exist.
Norwich, Ipswich, Sandwich and Jorvik (York) all still exist.
Watling Street still exists.

Fortunes wax and wane.

....

Often there is a singular justification for investment. But once that investment has been made it is possible to find other advantages resulting from that investment.

 

[Gorgo]

Well, a new ship's career begins...

HMCS William Hall Commissioned into Service in Halifax, N.S. - Canada.ca

The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) welcomed His Majesty’s Canadian Ship (HMCS) William Hall into naval service with a commissioning ceremony in Halifax, N.S. today.

www.canada.ca

 

[PrairieFella]

Well, a new ship's career begins...

HMCS William Hall Commissioned into Service in Halifax, N.S. - Canada.ca

The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) welcomed His Majesty’s Canadian Ship (HMCS) William Hall into naval service with a commissioning ceremony in Halifax, N.S. today.

www.canada.ca

Neat. I hope they can drink the water on this one.