U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[TCBF]

...because the Yanks are losing more soldiers due to death and injury faster than they can recruit and train replacements, ...

- Actually, they are losing more to mandatory retirement than they are in battle.  But wastage is wastage.

 

[medaid]

if I remember correctly, their contracts state something like this:

"... for the duration of xxxx amount of years, and or as long as Congress and the President of the United States deem necessary during a time of war or a state of emergency"

 

[dapaterson]

Pot, this is kettle.

The National Defence Act reads, in part,

Except during an emergency, an officer or non-commissioned member who is not on active service is entitled to be released at the expiration of the term of service for which the officer or non-commissioned member is enrolled or re-engaged.

...

Where the term of service for which an officer or non-commissioned member is enrolled or re-engaged expires during an emergency or when the officer or non-commissioned member is on active service or within one year after the expiration of an emergency or after he has ceased to be on active service, the officer or non-commissioned member is liable to serve until the expiration of one year after the emergency has ceased to exist or after he has ceased to be on active service, as the case may be.

Since all members of the Regular Force were placed on active service via an order in council in 1989 (see http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cr/SI-89-103///en), the CF can legally hold on to anyone in the Regular Force and deny them a release.  We haven't had to do that, nor would there be a political will to do so.  But the law is in place to do so here in Canada as well...

 

[Roy Harding]

Pot, this is kettle.

The National Defence Act reads, in part,

Since all members of the Regular Force were placed on active service via an order in council in 1989 (see http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cr/SI-89-103///en), the CF can legally hold on to anyone in the Regular Force and deny them a release.  We haven't had to do that, nor would there be a political will to do so.  But the law is in place to do so here in Canada as well...

Excellent point.

 

[teddybear]

Pot, this is kettle.

The National Defence Act reads, in part,

Since all members of the Regular Force were placed on active service via an order in council in 1989 (see http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cr/SI-89-103///en), the CF can legally hold on to anyone in the Regular Force and deny them a release.  We haven't had to do that, nor would there be a political will to do so.  But the law is in place to do so here in Canada as well...

That is along the lines that I was wondering. So, then his choice becomes deploy or face the music. My opinion: suck it up and face the charge. Although, easy for me to say when I'm not in that position.

 

[Bigrex]

- Actually, they are losing more to mandatory retirement than they are in battle.  But wastage is wastage.

That is true, but I was talking more about front line soldiers, who's ages range from 18-40, as I highly doubt there are any Privates, Corporals and Sergeants, or even junior Officers ( below Major), being forced out for being too old.

 

[JSA]

Deport him.  Nothing else will do.  js

 

[CougarKing]

They are actually releasing a movie soon called "Stop-Loss", where a Marine Sgt has his release squashed and redeployed to Iraq...

BigRex,

Umm...if you watched the trailer the main character is a US Army Sgt., not a US Marine; some of the soldiers you see in the trailer were wearing ACUs and class Bs, not the MARPAT uniform which US Marines are known to wear. Just another little detail to nitpick.  

Here is the trailer of the said movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgB59niSuM0

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

where do i sign up to be his escort back to the land of the BIG PX?
we use to have a shuttle run from Ottawa airport to Washington DC so our brass could visit the US brass. if they  still run it, put him and the rest of the run aways on the next flight and send a couple members just back from the latest overseas unit as escort detail.
they  signed the dotted line, collected a pay cheque when the worst thing was getting up for PT  and breakfast, now they  want out when it comes doing the job, toss them back., We must have room on the aircraft taking the troops to Texas for the big exercise, one stop flight, right to the base jail after the ride from the flight line...........................no respect for them

 

[FullMetalParka]

Now, it has been acutely stated that the war in Iraq has been falsely sold to the American people by lies. There were no WMD's and they knew it. So now, one man stands against this because he is no longer fighting for the country he believes in, but a country built on deceiving it's people. A parallel to what the Nazi's did.

I predict your time on this site will be rather short.

 

[Bigrex]

good catch Cougar, I didn't even realize I said Marine. I had just finished playing COD4 and had marines in my head. Thanks for the clarification, but the point is still valid.

And I agree FHG, send him back, but since he was Navy, have him shipped back as a prisoner on a CPF on its way to Norfolk, then have the MPs pick him up at the jetty. This way we can make him suffer, eating ship food and hopefully hit a storm like which he has never seen on an carrier, while other sailors shun and laugh at him.

 

[Roy Harding]

I predict your time on this site will be rather short.

Actually - compositional shortcomings aside - I think she made a reasoned argument (as much as I disagree with it), from her point of view.

And I give her full points for having the temerity to come to this den of war mongers arguing against the war.

I hope she comes back - and rebuts what we've said.

I'm all for an open, reasonable discussion - which, as far as I can recall, is partially what I and my peers fought, and continue to fight, for.

 

[FullMetalParka]

Actually - compositional shortcomings aside - I think she made a reasoned argument (as much as I disagree with it), from her point of view.

And I give her full points for having the temerity to come to this den of war mongers arguing against the war.

I hope she comes back - and rebuts what we've said.

I'm all for an open, reasonable discussion - which, as far as I can recall, is partially what I and my peers fought, and continue to fight, for.

I agree, this person did make a rather informed statement, but what I meant was that a heated argument on a subject as controversial as this generally spirals down into the abyss of personal insults and high-running emotions. I have zero problem with someone posting their opinion, but from what I've seen, flame wars generally result in bans and locks.

 

[Danjanou]

I'm with the English teacher on this one. Anyone is welcome here as long as they have something to contribute and adhere to the site guidelines. Ironically try visiting one of the "progressive" forums like babble.ca and deviating from the party line and see how long you last.

 

[Shamrock]

Actually - compositional shortcomings aside - I think she made a reasoned argument (as much as I disagree with it), from her point of view.

And I give her full points for having the temerity to come to this den of war mongers arguing against the war.

I hope she comes back - and rebuts what we've said.

I'm all for an open, reasonable discussion - which, as far as I can recall, is partially what I and my peers fought, and continue to fight, for.

With the notable exception of Char9409's closing sentence, I absolutely agree with Mr. Harding's assessment.

However, I wonder, at what point did we Canadians decide it was acceptable for our country to function as a dumpster for morally bankrupt Americans who lack the satchel content to face the ramifications of their actions babysitting service for individuals who mask their watery equivalent to conscientious objections as unjust persecutions and lack the dedication and perseverance to follow their ideals regardless of the consequences?

 

[Roy Harding]

I agree, this person did make a rather informed statement, but what I meant was that a heated argument on a subject as controversial as this generally spirals down into the abyss of personal insults and high-running emotions. I have zero problem with someone posting their opinion, but from what I've seen, flame wars generally result in bans and locks.

Exactly - which is why we have Mods.  AND, by the way, the reason I posted as an individual - NOT as a Mod.  This thread hasn't required moderation yet - I'm proud of y'all.

Let's keep it that way.

 

[Kilroy]

A couple of things that puzzle me about this guy is that he says that just getting out of the army was not an option. Did he mean he COULDN'T get out, or if he quit, he wiouldn't be able to make ends meet? Well, by coming to Canada, hasn't he effectively done this?? He also says he is concerned about a dishounorable discharge. Well, what does he think he is going to receive by coming to Canada, an hounourable discharge??

While I support the freedom of speech, and the freedom to join or not join the military or anything else, I gotta agree with alot of people on here, that this guy joined of his own free will, and if he doesn't want to go over again, or stay in the military, then get his release FIRST, then come to Canada if he so desires.

I'd really hate to think Canada would become a hideaway for people want to skirt thier military duty. This would be sure to give us a good trading stance with the US!!!!

 

[char9409]

Charlotte

Nice try comparing the present situation in the USA with Germany in World War 2.  However now that my colleague has given you a basic lesson in English composition shall we move on to one in history.

There were many Germans both Military and Civilian who opposed Hitler and the Nazis and paid the terrible price for doing so. I suggest a quick Google on Oberstleutnant Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, General Ludwig Beck and Operation Walküre, or Die Rote Kapelle, or Sophie Scholl and die Weiße Rose.

To even attempt to compare today's crop of self styled “war resistor to those brave men and women is an absolute travesty.

There was resistance in the US during the Vietnam War and there is again today during the present conflict and one can argue the merits pro or con for it.

Like many others I could have a grudging respect for someone who chose not to serve for whatever reason and remained in his country and faced the consequences of that action no matter what they may be including possible imprisonment.

I have no respect for cowards who flee their country in the middle of the night and then attack it from the sanctity of another wrapping their callous selfish actions in a thin veneer of pompous self righteousness.

In regards to the above, Mr. Danjanou, thank you for the history lesson, but I did not say that there were not German soldiers who stood up against the Nazi party. Merely stating an example to uphold my position.

Now, a political pop quiz for you:

1. Did you know that President Bush is currently pushing a bill through congress that will pardon him from being charged with any war crimes associated to the war in Iraq?

2. Did you know that the reason for going into Iraq was the reason for a WMD search, or a perception that the Iraq's had such weapons?

3. Did you know that now, Dick Cheney as well as the rest of the Bush Administration deny that they ever said that there was an imminent threat of WMD's in Iraq, even though the media has video of them clearly stating that there is an imminent threat of WMD's in Iraq?

4. Did you also know that "A new Newsweek poll out this weekend exposed "gaps" in America's knowledge of history and current events. Perhaps most alarmingly, 41% of Americans answered 'Yes' to the question "Do you think Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001?" That total is actually up 5 points since September 2004. Further, a majority of people couldn't identify Saudia Arabia as the country of origin of most of the 9/11 hijackers, even given the question in multiple choice format. 20% answered Iraq, while 14% believed the hijackers came from Iran."? quote courtesy of http://atlanticreview.org/archives/726-More-Americans-Believe-that-Saddam-Was-Directly-Involved-in-911.html.

5. Does the above quote not smell of propaganda, or is it the ignorance of their own people at their own demise?

Perhaps it is questions we need to ask such as what are the man's motives for leaving the US?

 

[Roy Harding]

A couple of things that puzzle me about this guy is that he says that just getting out of the army was not an option. Did he mean he COULDN'T get out, or if he quit, he wiouldn't be able to make ends meet? Well, by coming to Canada, hasn't he effectively done this?? He also says he is concerned about a dishounorable discharge. Well, what does he think he is going to receive by coming to Canada, an hounourable discharge??

While I support the freedom of speech, and the freedom to join or not join the military or anything else, I gotta agree with alot of people on here, that this guy joined of his own free will, and if he doesn't want to go over again, or stay in the military, then get his release FIRST, then come to Canada if he so desires.

I'd really hate to think Canada would become a hideaway for people want to skirt thier military duty. This would be sure to give us a good trading stance with the US!!!!

Bingo!!

I'm tired of these idiots running away from their voluntarily acquired responsibilities (familial, service and otherwise), and then claiming refugee status.

I'm MORE tired that we as a nation continue to tolerate their presence.

 

[Roy Harding]

Charlotte

Nice try comparing the present situation in the USA with Germany in World War 2.  However now that my colleague has given you a basic lesson in English composition shall we move on to one in history.

There were many Germans both Military and Civilian who opposed Hitler and the Nazis and paid the terrible price for doing so. I suggest a quick Google on Oberstleutnant Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, General Ludwig Beck and Operation Walküre, or Die Rote Kapelle, or Sophie Scholl and die Weiße Rose.

To even attempt to compare today's crop of self styled “war resistor to those brave men and women is an absolute travesty.

There was resistance in the US during the Vietnam War and there is again today during the present conflict and one can argue the merits pro or con for it.

Like many others I could have a grudging respect for someone who chose not to serve for whatever reason and remained in his country and faced the consequences of that action no matter what they may be including possible imprisonment.

I have no respect for cowards who flee their country in the middle of the night and then attack it from the sanctity of another wrapping their callous selfish actions in a thin veneer of pompous self righteousness.

In regards to the above, Mr. Danjanou, thank you for the history lesson, but I did not say that there were not German soldiers who stood up against the Nazi party. Merely stating an example to uphold my position.

Now, a political lesson for you:
1. Did you know that President Bush is currently pushing a bill through congress that will pardon him from being charged with any war crimes associated to the war in Iraq?
2. Did you know that the reason for going into Iraq was the reason for a WMD search, or a perception that the Iraq's had such weapons? 3. Did you know that now, Dick Cheney as well as the rest of the Bush Administration deny that they ever said that there was an imminent threat of WMD's in Iraq, even though the media has video of them clearly stating that there is an imminent threat of WMD's in Iraq?
4. Did you also know that "A new Newsweek poll out this weekend exposed "gaps" in America's knowledge of history and current events. Perhaps most alarmingly, 41% of Americans answered 'Yes' to the question "Do you think Saddam Hussein’s regime in Iraq was directly involved in planning, financing, or carrying out the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001?" That total is actually up 5 points since September 2004. Further, a majority of people couldn't identify Saudia Arabia as the country of origin of most of the 9/11 hijackers, even given the question in multiple choice format. 20% answered Iraq, while 14% believed the hijackers came from Iran."? quote courtesy of http://atlanticreview.org/archives/726-More-Americans-Believe-that-Saddam-Was-Directly-Involved-in-911.html.
5. Does the above quote not smell of propaganda, or is it the ignorance of their own people and their own demise?

Perhaps it is questions we need to ask such as what are the man's motives for leaving the US?

Thank you for coming back - I was afraid you might not.

I think you've provided some very provocative statistics there - do you have sources for them?

I find myself in the awkward position of defending your right to speak your piece, and at the same time disagreeing with you.

Let's make a deal - as a moderator here, I'll do my best to keep away the "dogpile" which MAY happen.  In return - please provide sources for your assertions of fact.

I MIGHT become involved in the forthcoming debate - when I'm Moderating, my comment will be signed with a red "Milnet.ca Staff" annotation - anything not so annotated is my personal opinion.

I respect your point of view - regardless I disagree with it - and I welcome your contribution to these forums.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff