Avro Arrow RL-206

[lenaitch]

I will disagree with you, the role did not disappear, it was supposedly to be taken over by Bomac (which was a real dog) and then we had to buy an interceptor and guess what the Americans were happy to sell us one. The Arrow was likley going to be a very good interceptor and likley would have followed a similar life as the Voodoo did, being eventually replaced by the CF-18. The effect it would have had on the Canadian aerospace industry would be interesting.

My only quibble is that anticipated range of the Arrow wasn't going to be all that great. I recall seeing a document once on the projected deployment of Arrow squadrons and many were supposed to be up north. Possibly great from a tactical point of view, maybe not so much from a recruiting/deployment perspective.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Also Canadianair Sabres and Malaysia used a armed version of the Tutor, not sure if the Canadian or the American?

The Canadair Sabre is a jet fighter aircraft built by Canadair under licence from North American Aviation. A variant of the North American F-86 Sabre, it was produced until 1958 and used primarily by the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) until replaced with the Canadair CF-104 in 1962. Several other air forces also operated the aircraft.

Not really a Canadian company design, but a copy of an American Design., with modifications and Canadian parts and upgrades

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and the Yukon

Canadair CL-44 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[armrdsoul77]

 

[lenaitch]

View attachment 80215

Our daughter has a pair of CF-101 Voodoo shoes.

 

[childs56]

The Arrow was an advancement in aircraft that was years ahead of any other program. Spec wise the Avro and or variants could possibly be flying today. Not much different then we see the F15 and its upgrades. The Avro would have been the first in a series of advanced aircraft had politics not played a end to the program and a era of Canadian Aerospace.
It was the beginning, of what would have been a world renowned Military Fighter program that would have set Canada ahead of our allies.

Politics played the largest and most important role in its demise. Had it not then we would not have purchased aircraft shortly after.

Was the Arrow the be all end all. Of its time yes it was. Would it still be the greatest today. More then likely not, we will never know. But our Aerospace industry (defense) could have been one of the top if not the top. Instead we have a program shrouded in secrecy and still to this day do not have the truth over its demise.

 

[lenaitch]

The Arrow was an advancement in aircraft that was years ahead of any other program. Spec wise the Avro and or variants could possibly be flying today. Not much different then we see the F15 and its upgrades. The Avro would have been the first in a series of advanced aircraft had politics not played a end to the program and a era of Canadian Aerospace.
It was the beginning, of what would have been a world renowned Military Fighter program that would have set Canada ahead of our allies.

Politics played the largest and most important role in its demise. Had it not then we would not have purchased aircraft shortly after.

Was the Arrow the be all end all. Of its time yes it was. Would it still be the greatest today. More then likely not, we will never know. But our Aerospace industry (defense) could have been one of the top if not the top. Instead we have a program shrouded in secrecy and still to this day do not have the truth over its demise.

True, but they would have needed an export market. I don't know how many they were planning for the RCAF but I doubt it would have been enough to sustain an assembly line for very long. Like most aircraft of its era, it was not multi-role, so what did they plan for what we now call air superiority and ground support?

I read somewhere that the acquisition of the Voodoo and Bomarc exceeded the Arrow program costs. I don't know how true that is.

 

[childs56]

True, but they would have needed an export market. I don't know how many they were planning for the RCAF but I doubt it would have been enough to sustain an assembly line for very long. Like most aircraft of its era, it was not multi-role, so what did they plan for what we now call air superiority and ground support?

I read somewhere that the acquisition of the Voodoo and Bomarc exceeded the Arrow program costs. I don't know how true that is.

I am pretty certain they would would have had customers lined up once they hit their performance promise.

 

[lenaitch]

I am pretty certain they would would have had customers lined up once they hit their performance promise.

Perhaps, but the potential customers also had their own domestic aerospace industries and would be eager to feed and protect them.

 

[childs56]

Perhaps, but the potential customers also had their own domestic aerospace industries and would be eager to feed and protect them.

Perhaps, we will never know for sure. We do know our allies to the south were very concerned about the whole program to which I am sure they wanted full control of one way or another.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Perhaps, we will never know for sure. We do know our allies to the south were very concerned about the whole program to which I am sure they wanted full control of one way or another.

And you can say that with a straight face? While the Arrow probably deserved the accolades it received for expanding the envelope of aeronautical engineering, it was still just an aeroplane that was designed for a specific mission. There were lots of contemporary fighters being developed (and put into service before the Arrow was planned to actually get in production) that were also designed for the mission (and/or missions) of those other countries. Can you honestly name one country that would have been so overawed by the brilliance of Avro Canada that they would have stopped development/production of their own fighter aircraft in order to buy Arrows? Or can you envision Canada (even Canada of the 1950s) trying to be a major player in the international arms game? Or what second echelon countries would have been acceptable customers, in terms of financial resources or, more importantly, diplomatically acceptable? What features of the Arrow (if continuing development and testing have proven its excellence) would have made it so much more attractive than the other fighters already in the marketplace to probably a very limited customer base?

 

[childs56]

And you can say that with a straight face?

Yup

While the Arrow probably deserved the accolades it received for expanding the envelope of aeronautical engineering, it was still just an aeroplane that was designed for a specific mission.

Most Jets were designed for a specific mission at the time and they evolved into multi roles as time and experiences happened.

There were lots of contemporary fighters being developed (and put into service before the Arrow was planned to actually get in production) that were also designed for the mission (and/or missions) of those other countries.

None of them could do what the Arrow did and in theory could do.

Can you honestly name one country that would have been so overawed by the brilliance of Avro Canada that they would have stopped development/production of their own fighter aircraft in order to buy Arrows?

Not saying they would have stopped development, but they would have bought the rights to build the Arrow and or variants.

Or can you envision Canada (even Canada of the 1950s) trying to be a major player in the international arms game?

Yes I can they were a major player during WWI and WWII. We still are in the pretty big in the tech game.

Or what second echelon countries would have been acceptable customers, in terms of financial resources or, more importantly, diplomatically acceptable? What features of the Arrow (if continuing development and testing have proven its excellence) would have made it so much more attractive than the other fighters already in the marketplace to probably a very limited customer base?

Compared to what was available then and for the next ten years or so the Avro was pretty darn good competition to any other program.
The fear of the US was having Canada build a better, faster Jet then they could. The overall program progression in a time when Faster was better.

The US government tanked that program for a reason. Shortly afterwards built some the best jets in the world. They were no where even close to design such as the Avro. It says a lot about their aerospace industry was stuck in a revolving door of subject matter experts who said no it cant be done and it wont be done. So it wasn't done.
Along came this Canadian company who said it could be done and they proved it could. Purely politics involved to squash the airplane. We had a better aerospace team, we had a better more precise environment to build with more freedom to experiment . They stepped on the big players in the US so they did what they do best. Figured out how to shut us down.
The US at the time had their doubts about Canada's loyalty also with our ties to the former USSR, that has been clearly documented on other other matters.
It sure would be interesting to see where the development would have gone had it not been scrapped.

 

[eliminator]

Some comparisons from the era.

 

[Good2Golf]

Some comparisons from the era.

My favorite aircraft from that era outperformed the Arrow with only one engine…also a beautiful example of Whitcomb’s Area Rule. The ‘Six’ could supercruise at M1.5, which is why its combat range was so much greater than the Arrow.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

True, but they would have needed an export market. I don't know how many they were planning for the RCAF but I doubt it would have been enough to sustain an assembly line for very long. Like most aircraft of its era, it was not multi-role, so what did they plan for what we now call air superiority and ground support?

I read somewhere that the acquisition of the Voodoo and Bomarc exceeded the Arrow program costs. I don't know how true that is.

As I recall much of the overruns were related to the accompanying Sparrow missile system, once they had dropped that, costs came under control.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

None of them could do what the Arrow did and in theory could do.

Wrong! The F-4 Phantom could do everything the Arrow could and then some. For example, it could carry up to 18,000 lbs of ordinance vs 4,000 lbs for the Arrow; it was designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat, and most importantly, the F-4 had an airborne refueling capability which allowed it to fly across the continental US in under three hours.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The F4 was the the Aircraft the RCAF needed not the the Voodoo and it grew it was incredibly flexible and it wasn't just Multi role it could almost be described as omni role .
Think of a role and it could do it. Interceptor , escort fighter, carrier based fighter, close air support , recce ,strike, close air support and and air defence suppression.

 

[GR66]

The F4 was the the Aircraft the RCAF needed not the the Voodoo and it grew it was incredibly flexible and it wasn't just Multi role it could almost be described as omni role .
Think of a role and it could do it. Interceptor , escort fighter, carrier based fighter, close air support , recce ,strike, close air support and and air defence suppression.

And one hell of a great looking aircraft!

 

[childs56]

Wrong! The F-4 Phantom could do everything the Arrow could and then some. For example, it could carry up to 18,000 lbs of ordinance vs 4,000 lbs for the Arrow; it was designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat, and most importantly, the F-4 had an airborne refueling capability which allowed it to fly across the continental US in under three hours.

The F4 was not designed that way at first. It was in design and test for a number of years, changing specs more then once. Adding things to make it more agreeable for a job it bought to fit into.
Had the Avro been given the time, effort and chance the US gave the f4. The aerospace industry in Canada would be much different now. I think a few of the f4 records would have been broken just because.
As we will never actually know what the arrow was truly capable of it is pretty mute.

 

[WestIsle]

The F4 was not designed that way at first. It was in design and test for a number of years, changing specs more then once. Adding things to make it more agreeable for a job it bought to fit into.
Had the Avro been given the time, effort and chance the US gave the f4. The aerospace industry in Canada would be much different now. I think a few of the f4 records would have been broken just because.
As we will never actually know what the arrow was truly capable of it is pretty mute.

The difference is that the Arrow was never going to be anything other then an interceptor. That style of aircraft (the design) wasn't going to practical for a multirole fighter, reconnaissance plane, strike fighter, etc. It was also not as competitive as other designs our allies were cooking up such as......

North American XF-108 Rapier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BAC TSR-2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The issue with the cancelation of the Arrow was that the workers had no other projects to fall into. This speaks to a bigger issue that Canada didn't have a lot of development going on after the Canuck. If the government of Canada was serious about keeping this industry then there would have been a fighter in development or even not had the Arrow at all. Interceptors of this size seem like a huge gamble to place most of your aerospace defence sector on.

You seem to be missing the point of the F4. People here keep bringing it up because it was a great design that was able to stay on the front lines of NATO until the end of the Cold War. A large interceptor such as the Arrow doesn't have a lot of appeal to Benelux countries and we everyone had their own industries to sustain/buy from. If you want a successful fighter program in Canada to survive that might only work by teaming up with the Brits or Dutch.