Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[Breacher]

Also, with some of those bases, they weren't exactly closed, but downsized and the reg force assets moved out (1 RCR used to be in London, 3 PPCLI used to be Chilliwack).

Just to be pedantic, 3 PPCLI was never stationed in Chilliwack. They were at Work Point Barracks in Victoria, which was also closed. 1 CER, CFSME, and CFOCS were in Chilliwack at the time of closure. The only remaining military presence in Chilliwack that I am aware of is the HQ of 39 CER which is housed in the former 1 CER HQ building.

 

[GK .Dundas]

And you were doing so well..

How about reopening London as a full base?

Didn't one of the buildings get turned into some sort of convention space ?

 

[dapaterson]

Didn't one of the buildings get turned into some sort of convention space ?

An old armoury was sold and converted into a hotel - the Delta Armouries.

 

[GK .Dundas]

An old armoury was sold and converted into a hotel - the Delta Armouries.

Oh goodie, who gets to tell the hotel the previous residents/ inmates want to move back in .

 

[dapaterson]

Oh goodie, who gets to tell the hotel the previous residents/ inmates want to move back in .

It was a good divestment. Like many heritage buildings, maintenance cost was becoming excessive, and the space would not meet modern training needs.

The CAF needs heritage exemptions to let them raze old, non functional buildings.

 

[Underway]

Its a beautiful hotel, with a large amount of military paraphenielia in the hallways (particularly on the second floor), in honour of the previous occupants. They really did a good job with it.

 

[Furniture]

No- it's nothing like that at all.

It's recognizing that the shit tonne of people that do find a way to make it work in the area, because that's where they were raised, where their roots are, where they choose to live equals a massive employment and recruitment pool, if the terms of employment can be made to work for them.

"What do we need to do to make location X an attractive/tolerable posting for serving members from elsewhere" is a fundamentally different question than " how can the local population from location x contribute to fixing the recruitment/retention overall personnel shortage issue if things were done differently"

The problem with this sort of solution is it only works for essentially the Cbt arms, where you put hundreds of people from the same trade in a single location. What about all the smaller support dets that are required to keep the modern kit functioning, and keep the rest of the support functions alive?

When you have a det/section of 8 Veh Techs or 4 FSAs, how do you provide them with advancement and opportunity if they stay in that small det? We aren't struggling to fill the battalions as much as we are struggling to fill the support jobs that tend to work in small dets, and require somewhat frequent postings due to promotions.

 

[Kirkhill]

It’s not magical accounting it’s borrowing against one’s future to ensure a future.

Consider it like a mortgage for the country.

Debt shouldn’t be something to run up trivially, but I’d suggest that National Defense is a little bit more important these days.

Agree Kevin.

It is a worthwhile expenditure. But it is a worthwhile expenditure whether it comes out of general revenues or is separately recorded.

 

[IKnowNothing]

The problem with this sort of solution is it only works for essentially the Cbt arms, where you put hundreds of people from the same trade in a single location. What about all the smaller support dets that are required to keep the modern kit functioning, and keep the rest of the support functions alive?

When you have a det/section of 8 Veh Techs or 4 FSAs, how do you provide them with advancement and opportunity if they stay in that small det? We aren't struggling to fill the battalions as much as we are struggling to fill the support jobs that tend to work in small dets, and require somewhat frequent postings due to promotions.

Please note that I said "contribute to fixing" not "solve".

I'm not going to claim to be an expert, 
But I suppose my first question would be -do they really need to be provided with advancement and opportunity if staying in that small det provides with stability, a good living, a fulfilling career? Is promotion driven instability a feature or a bug?

The majority of civilian 310T's, skilled tradesmen, etc. get certified and then work their lives as journeymen, adding a side qual here and there - often spending years and decades working at the same small local company. The small minority do any kind of ladder climbing.

 

[Furniture]

But I suppose my first question would be -do they really need to be provided with advancement and opportunity if staying in that small det provides with stability, a good living, a fulfilling career? Is promotion driven instability a feature or a bug?

People join the CAF for a good job, and for opportunities, otherwise they'd be the local tradespeople.

The majority of civilian 310T's, skilled tradesmen, etc. get certified and then work their lives as journeymen, adding a side qual here and there - often spending years and decades working at the same small local company. The small minority do any kind of ladder climbing.

The majority of the local tradespeople aren't expected to go away for months at a time on course or deployments.

Now, that does raise one interesting point though, could some of the local "urban cohort" support be turned into contracted/PS civilian support? My guess is yes. That means we still need a robust deployable group of supporters posted elsewhere, to go out into the field and on deployment to provide frontline support outside the urban core.

 

[ueo]

If only we had elements of the army scattered around the countryside to meet people where they live.

We do, PRes units!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Out of curiosity, why couldn't Borden be made into an active CAF base? Its less than 30mins from Barrie (and rapid transit into downtown Toronto and Pearson). It would definitely appeal, I'm assuming, to those younger CAF members, with and without families.

Ummm…Borden is an active Base.

 

[QV]

Please note that I said "contribute to fixing" not "solve".

I'm not going to claim to be an expert, 
But I suppose my first question would be -do they really need to be provided with advancement and opportunity if staying in that small det provides with stability, a good living, a fulfilling career? Is promotion driven instability a feature or a bug?

The majority of civilian 310T's, skilled tradesmen, etc. get certified and then work their lives as journeymen, adding a side qual here and there - often spending years and decades working at the same small local company. The small minority do any kind of ladder climbing.

Exactly, and there would still be advancement, just locally. Staying at the same level for longer periods also helps develop mastery of the basics.

 

[IKnowNothing]

People join the CAF for a good job, and for opportunities, otherwise they'd be the local tradespeople.

The majority of the local tradespeople aren't expected to go away for months at a time on course or deployments.

With respect, I think conceptually bundling deployments and courses in with postings is a mistake- as is the assumption that people only join the CAF because of the path to CWO.

The decision to accept a career where there will be periodic short term aberrations and intrusions into an otherwise fairly "normal" family life with geographic stability within your home area, is a fundamentally different prospect than the decision to accept the same intrusions, but into a family life of cross country transience without the stability.

Remember, you don't need the majority of the mechanics and bookkeepers within the 50km radius to join, you need enough to fill your 8 and 4 person dets.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's still active but not like when it was the home of both the armoured's and infantry's schools before they were consolidated in Gagetown with the artillery's. Borden has a small training area but Meaford is only a short drive to the northwest. During my younger days we routinely went live firing there and I expect the southern Ontario units still do with the 4th Div Trg Centre there.

FYI Borden is a very busy base, its probably the busiest training base in the CAF.

It houses CFLTC, CF Fire Academy, MP Academy, Chaplian School, TDO School, RCEME School, Med/Dent School, 16 Wing, 3rd Ranger Patrol Group, CFSATE (RCAF Tech School), RCAF Academy and 400 Tac Hel Sqn. I am sure I am missing some.

CFLTC (Logistics School) alone trains the largest branch in the CAF. Tie in the Med/Dent School, RCEME and RCAF Tech School and you probably have half the CAF being trained there at some point.

If you have ever tried to book a room in Borden you know that it can very difficult.

Borden is already a massive training base with 5-8k personal there throughout the year both RCN, army, airforce. It has a massive footprint, but if you started moving or standing up operational units there, it wouldn't work, already you have members living an hour or more from base due to housing costs, the training area is limited in size similar to CFB edmonton so youd need to go else where for major exercises, and the base already struggles to staff its kitchens during the summer ARes surge. youd be hard pressed to increase that year round

FTFY

 

[Halifax Tar]

And yet, how many hundreds of thousands if not millions of Canadians are making it work within a 1, 1.5 hour drive- many if not most on less than Corporal pay. Brings to mind @FJAG 's tiered/ non post-able service agreements.

Why not try to be better and offer something more to those scores of people you talk about ? Call it a recruiting effort!

Just because the average Canadian deals with it, doesn't necessarily mean we should.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Why not try to be better and offer something more to those scores of people you talk about ? Call it a recruiting effort!

Just because the average Canadian deals with it, doesn't necessarily mean we should.

I clarified down thread from that initial post.

Think about it like a series of concentric circles.

On the outside you have all the pool of people conceptually willing to do a job for a given amount of money.

Next step in, you have the smaller group of those people that are also willing/desirous of doing so in a military environment day to day.

Next step in, you have the smaller group of those people, that are also willing/desirous of the shorter term intrusions (and potential danger) of deployments.

Finally step in, you have the smaller group of those people, that are also willing to do all of the above PLUS be posted around the Country every 2-3 years.

That last group is not large enough for the CAF's needs. Would the group above it be?

 

[dapaterson]

The mobility requirements for CAF members differ radically between occupations and ranks. There does need to be professionalization of the career management function to reduce some of that friction, to avoid assholes posting two people across the country who were both planning to retire in the location they were posted out of, both within a year or two, just so they could swap jobs.

 

[MilEME09]

Why not try to be better and offer something more to those scores of people you talk about ? Call it a recruiting effort!

Just because the average Canadian deals with it, doesn't necessarily mean we should.

Most employers don't try and restrict you to living within 30 minutes away either. The CAF needs to increase quality of life in order to keep people. Talk to any instructor posted to RCEMES, majority hate being posted to borden, especially if you have a family because you can't find housing easily on a MCpl/Sgt pay for a family of 4 and not be in traffic for 4 hours a day. If we had enough PMQs in every case that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[ytz]

The problem with this sort of solution is it only works for essentially the Cbt arms, where you put hundreds of people from the same trade in a single location. What about all the smaller support dets that are required to keep the modern kit functioning, and keep the rest of the support functions alive?

When you have a det/section of 8 Veh Techs or 4 FSAs, how do you provide them with advancement and opportunity if they stay in that small det? We aren't struggling to fill the battalions as much as we are struggling to fill the support jobs that tend to work in small dets, and require somewhat frequent postings due to promotions.

This forum has a certain blindspot for support functions and especially all the emerging domains like space and cyber. Understandable, because some of that wasn't around when people here served. These emerging domains are particularly difficult. Virtually every job in Space and Cyber require TS. A lot of jobs needs caveats. Getting skilled people in, cleared and qualified is hard enough. Keeping them after they have all that skill and experience and a clearance is even more difficult.