Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I have long said that you could fund the CAF to 4 percent of GDP, but we would still lag behind in NATO and be much the same where we are.

It's never the money, it's politics. It's procedures. It's the pork-barreling in our defence spending that makes us a paper tiger in NATO.

My only hope in all of this for the CAF and the GoC, whatever the political stripe that may be, is that it will rouse them out of the "Peace Dividend" slumber. The world has been unstable since 1945. We have used geography, proximity, and association as a Defence Policy ever since. ICBMs don't care how close to the U.S. or how far from Russia/China we are.

Don't give us a dime more, but let us spend money on defence like it matters. The fact we follow the same rules for purchasing a fighter aircraft as we do for buying office furniture for a Service Canada office is disgraceful. Don't treat defense procurement as a stimulus package for Canadian Industry. There I said it.

We spend so much money, time, and effort trying to get that money to stay in Canada; be it by awarding contracts to companies with no capability to produce items without first "retooling" and"developing the production lines", or by hamstringing perfectly competent and competitive bidders by forcing the project to be made in St. Margaret de Poutain de Champignon, QC because the ruling government either lost the seat in the election, or won it with promises.

We spend so much money and staff hours jumping through TBS regulations that are great for other departments, but are terrible for defence procurement. Some items you have to sole source, because there are technologies and capabilities no one else makes. By doing the bid process, you get companies clamoring for a project they can't deliver on, but because they tick the bright boxes on the score sheet....

I truly and honestly belief we need to split from PSPC and legislate that its not beholden to TBS, only to the PBO/PCO. The guiding principles of this new Defence Procurement department should be "Off the shelf, from somewhere else" if there isn't an industry in Canada.

BOOTFORGEN has demonstrated how well we do when we are able to actually get what we need, instead of lining the pockets of a Canadian company that got lucky.

That, but with tanks, fighters, ships, weapons systems....

 

[dapaterson]

Sure. For some jobs. But we are talking average here.

Cpl SOF and SAR already make six figures before allowances... Cpl 4 Spec 2 makes over $91k before allowances.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Delinking from PS pay rates may cause more damage than good. So you are saying increase pay and mil factor? You dreaming if you think cpls should be making 6 figures.

Why not ? I am not saying thats my goal, but why not ?

Yes, I am saying delinking Mil Pay from PS rates. I also like the idea of a union and collective bargaining. The RCMP can do it.

Nope. Was class B for 15 years making 15% less than my reg force counterparts who in some cases were in Ottawa for twenty years.

So no you were not. And Class B service is not RegF service. The equivalent is Class C.

Or go straight to a prl or off the supp reserve. A lot of those guys gave the civy side a try first. Either way they still came back to the CAF and for less pay.

Less pay, and less obligations of service too. That's the big difference. I'd take a pay cut if I could say no to things.

 

[QV]

Why not ? I am not saying thats my goal, but why not ?

Yes, I am saying delinking Mil Pay from PS rates. I also like the idea of a union and collective bargaining. The RCMP can do it.



So no you were not. And Class B service is not RegF service. The equivalent is Class C.



Less pay, and less obligations of service too. That's the big difference. I'd take a pay cut if I could say no to things.

There is simply no comparison from ResF service to RegF service. And Class C is like term employment but for a tour, still not the same.

 

[Remius]

Why not ? I am not saying thats my goal, but why not ?

What is the alternative then? What are you basing pay on?

Yes, I am saying delinking Mil Pay from PS rates. I also like the idea of a union and collective bargaining. The RCMP can do it.

The RCMP also has peer organizations it can compare to. It also only really has one single trade. Does the CAF? If so then you would be looking at foreign peer nations pay rates in all likelihood. I’m sure that won’t go over well.

So no you were not. And Class B service is not RegF service. The equivalent is Class C.

I thought I was pretty clear and thanks for the info…

We are talking pay right? For work done right?

If you don’t want my input because I’m a reservist just say so. Wouldn’t be the first time.

Less pay, and less obligations of service too.

Varies. I’ve seen enough reg force types never move and never deploy. I’ve also seen enough class B types get tasked away for months.

That's the big difference. I'd take a pay cut if I could say no to things.

Right. So it isn’t just about pay.

That’s what we need more of. Cut your pay or have differential for those that do get tasked, deployed or move.

Salary is still good. Fix the mil factor and fix the incentives.

 

[Remius]

There is simply no comparison from ResF service to RegF service. And Class C is like term employment but for a tour, still not the same.

There isn’t. But I know exactly why it was brought up.

It’s a piss poor retort to the issue.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is simply no comparison from ResF service to RegF service. And Class C is like term employment but for a tour, still not the same.

There are lots of fantastic and dedicated folks on Class B. I met lots of them during my time at the CBG. But they most defiantly are not RegF equivalent. Every single one said they don't want to go RegF as it would mean moving.

 

[QV]

Exactly. The CAF wouldn't survive without the ResF and class B employment. And I think the ResF should be expanded and better equipped, but rank equivalency should have been managed differently. Anyway... I digress.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What is the alternative then? What are you basing pay on?

No, you said a Cpl shouldn't make six figues. Why not ?

The RCMP also has peer organizations it can compare to. It also only really has one single trade. Does the CAF? If so then you would be looking at foreign peer nations pay rates in all likelihood. I’m sure that won’t go over well.

Nothing I can find on google says foreign militaries break up their unions into professional groupings like the PS does. Do you have something that shows that ?

I thought I was pretty clear and thanks for the info…

We are talking pay right? For work done right?

If you don’t want my input because I’m a reservist just say so. Wouldn’t be the first time.

Its not whether I want your input or not, you have the freedom of expression just as anyone else does in this country. I just like to know what experience the person has that I am talking too. It helps me put into context their view and stand point.

Varies. I’ve seen enough reg force types never move and never deploy. I’ve also seen enough class B types get tasked away for months.

There are exceptions to every rule, look at Bandsmen. Or TDOs.

Right. So it isn’t just about pay.

It is. I am willing to do take a loss of pay, but you get less of an obligation from me too. Me and the duty I provide costs money.

That’s what we need more of. Cut your pay or have differential for those that do get tasked, deployed or move.

Salary is still good. Fix the mil factor and fix the incentives.

My understanding is the Mil Factor is a built in facet of our salary. What ever the voodoo magic I think CAF members should see more $$$ in their bank accounts twice a month.

 

[Underway]

So who exactly are we going to nuke? The only countries that have the military capacity to project any significant force against Canada are all nuclear powers. How large (and expensive) a nuclear force do you need to deter Russia or China? Are cruise missiles enough? Would we need ICBMs for our deterrent to be credible (cruise missiles are much easier to shoot down than ballistic missiles).

Regardless of the state of our relationship with the US they are not going to let any other country strategically threaten the US by taking Canada so are we talking about nuking the USA? So if Trump were to actually order the US military to annex Canada by force are we going to threaten to launch nuclear weapons against US cities? Nuclear weapons are only a deterrent if the other side is convinced you'll use them. And shouldn't we assume that the US would retaliate? Would killing potentially millions of American civilians and turning all our major cities into glowing parking lots be a reasonable price to pay to prevent annexation?

That will be a hard pass from me on Canada getting nuclear weapons.

Ah you've gotten it wrong sort of.

Do you think the US would allow us to have nuclear weapons? Think Cuban missile crisis. They would lose their minds. That's why I said through line. Don't build nukes, don't withdraw from treaties. Just have delivery systems and build nukes in an emergency.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ah you've gotten it wrong sort of.

Do you think the US would allow us to have nuclear weapons? Think Cuban missile crisis. They would lose their minds. That's why I said through line. Don't build nukes, don't withdraw from treaties. Just have delivery systems and build nukes in an emergency.

Why are we beholden to the US for what we can and cant have ?

 

[Remius]

No, you said a Cpl shouldn't make six figues. Why not ?

Not how it works. Why not a million? Tell me why taxpayers should pay a Cpl 100k a year? What is the hourly work, skill set, comparitives for trade and additional benefits? A lot goes into determining compensation.

Specialist types is a good explanation.but Why should a cpl cook, clerk or supply tech or infantry soldier make 100k base salary?

Nothing I can find on google says foreign militaries break up their unions into professional groupings like the PS does. Do you have something that shows that ?

I have no idea what you are on about here. My response was to your rcmp comparison.

Its not whether I want your input or not, you have the freedom of expression just as anyone else does in this country. I just like to know what experience the person has that I am talking too. It helps me put into context their view and stand point.

No It’s a distraction and was a deflection. I’m not stupid HT. I know your feelings on that. Frankly I could care less. I didn’t need your smart ass definition of what class b is either.

There are exceptions to every rule, look at Bandsmen. Or TDOs.

Or clerks or supply tech or infantry officers or plenty that haunt the halls of where ever fur decades.

My understanding is the Mil Factor is a built in facet of our salary. What ever the voodoo magic I think CAF members should see more $$$ in their bank accounts twice a month.

I actually understand the mil factor. And how it is broken down. It’s a percentage over the PS equivalents in most cases. Not all though. But hey I’m just a reservist.

Want to increase that? Like I said I’m not against it. But you base average salaries in most cases are good.

As to your last part, yeah join the rest of Canada in wanting that.

 

[OldSolduer]

Why are we beholden to the US for what we can and cant have ?

Because we have brain drain - many brilliant folks left Canada for better pay and conditions in the USA.

That is one reason and I am sure there are more.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not how it works. Why not a million? Tell me why taxpayers should pay a Cpl 100k a year? What is the hourly work, skill set, comparitives for trade and additional benefits? A lot goes into determining compensation.

Specialist types is a good explanation.but Why should a cpl cook, clerk or supply tech or infantry soldier make 100k base salary?

You brought up a Cpl making 6 figures as a hard no. I wanted to know why.

I have no idea what you are on about here. My response was to your rcmp comparison.

Because:

The RCMP also has peer organizations it can compare to. It also only really has one single trade. Does the CAF? If so then you would be looking at foreign peer nations pay rates in all likelihood. I’m sure that won’t go over well.

I am assuming you you were drawing a equivalence to something like the PS with its different organizations representing different groups of workers to the CAF and our different trades, branches and ranks.

And I was wondering if the foreign militaries that are unionized have different bargaining groups or not. And I thought you might have that info.

No It’s a distraction and was a deflection. I’m not stupid HT. I know your feelings on that. Frankly I could care less. I didn’t need your smart ass definition of what class b is either.

I'm not sure why you're upset about this. I have told you why I asked. You can believe me or not, but its no secret I have become a big fan of the ARes and really enjoyed my time with them. I was offered the position again and it was hard to say no to, but I am just not done with the RCN yet.

I am truly meaning no offense to you. My apologies if that was your interpretation.

Or clerks or supply tech or infantry officers or plenty that haunt the halls of where ever fur decades.

Again exceptions. Do we have these people yes, are they majority, no.

I actually understand the mil factor. And how it is broken down. It’s a percentage over the PS equivalents in most cases. Not all though. But hey I’m just a reservist.

So educate me. How is it broken down ? Is it incorporated as part of the make up of our salary ?

As to your last part, yeah join the rest of Canada in wanting that.

I have no doubt. But my concern is CAF members.

 

[FJAG]

Nope. Was class B for 15 years making 15% less than my reg force counterparts who in some cases were in Ottawa for twenty years.

I made it work and the money was good. Experiences will vary though.

That, to me, is a clear signal that something is wrong with the system. And this is the fundamental reason why.

There are lots of fantastic and dedicated folks on Class B. I met lots of them during my time at the CBG. But they most defiantly are not RegF equivalent. Every single one said they don't want to go RegF as it would mean moving.

At the legislative level, the RegF is defined as:

15 (1) There shall be a component of the Canadian Forces, called the regular force, that consists of officers and non-commissioned members who are enrolled for continuing, full-time military service.

And the ResF as:

(3) There shall be a component of the Canadian Forces, called the reserve force, that consists of officers and non-commissioned members who are enrolled for other than continuing, full-time military service when not on active service.

A reservists who serves for 15 years (and don't take me wrong, I fully understand your motivation and contribution - and many have served out 20-30 years that way) is a participant in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge institutional game. With a series of slight-of-hand manoeuvres the CAF make a Class B life-time career a possibility. That allows the RegF to not only fill holes but also expand their full-time numbers beyond authorized limits and often at the expense of Class A budgets.

IMHO, we have a basic problem with the RegF and ResF systems that can be fixed by making two classes of RegF service just as there are three for ResF. Let's call those two new classes Class U for unrestricted RegF service and Class R for restricted RegF service.

A Class U RegF member would in all respects be the same as the RegF is today.

A Class R, OTOH, would have certain restrictions and rights. Firstly the term of service would only be served within a defined geographic area, selected on enrollment, such as the Metropolitan Toronto area. The individual would be liable for operational tours and short duration exercises anywhere, be liable/eligible for a posting or promotion any where within the geographic area but can decline - without career implications - a posting or promotion that would take them outside the geographic area. Their pay would be less than a Class U (whether 15% or whether the Class Us receive an allowance is immaterial, just so long as there is a financial benefit for a Class U)

There would be the opportunity to elect back and forth between Class U and Class R contracts of service for fixed term contracts. As an example, a Class U could at the end of a fixed term Class U contract apply to convert to Class R service in a geographic area with an available vacancy. A Class U could convert to Class R at any time for a fixed term contract. (That obviously all needs some fine tuning and massaging but you get the basic idea - a class of full-time service in a defined geographic location so that families are guaranteed to stays put.

Class B's would be restricted to filling temporary holes in RegF positions with pay coming out of the RegF PY envelope. Class A budgets would be unaffected when unit members accept a temporary Class B contract.

 

[Genetk44]

Why are we beholden to the US for what we can and cant have ?

Besides the fact of a couple of treaties that we have signed or the aforementioned brain-drain? Maybe just the simple fact that the one million pound godzilla south of us just won’t permit us to have nukes a few miles from their border…..and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[ytz]

Comparisons to the private sector or even other public sector jobs miss the point. Most other jobs don't require to move every 3-5 years, effectively placing a ceiling on family income by kneecapping my spouse's resume for life. Giving me even $10-20k more than my civilian counterpart doesn't make up for this. My wife's career is worth a lot more than that. And this isn't even looking at all the other problems that come up these days with any move (childcare, finding a doctor, etc). Essentially, the only way to have an economically stable CAF career is to be a public servant in uniform in Ottawa. This to me runs substantially counter to what we'd want out of the CAF and its members.

I'm glad we're meeting our recruiting goals. But if we can't improve retention, the overall force size isn't going to improve quickly anytime soon. Instead, experience levels will drop exactly as all the new kit comes online.

 

[GR66]

Ah you've gotten it wrong sort of.

Do you think the US would allow us to have nuclear weapons? Think Cuban missile crisis. They would lose their minds. That's why I said through line. Don't build nukes, don't withdraw from treaties. Just have delivery systems and build nukes in an emergency.

But my question is what is the actual emergency for which we would use our nuclear weapons?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Besides the fact of a couple of treaties that we have signed or the aforementioned brain-drain? Maybe just the simple fact that the one million pound godzilla south of us just won’t permit us to have nukes a few miles from their border…..and there is nothing we can do about it.

Why cant we do anything about it ? We seem to be able to buy what we want, LEOs, CPFs, F18s. Why do we have to listen to what the US says if we want nukes ? Like @Remius said tare up the treaty.

Are we a vassal state of the US ?

 

[Halifax Tar]

But my question is what is the actual emergency for which we would use our nuclear weapons?

There probably isn't one. But, theres always a but, if we want them then we should be able to have them. We're either a sovereign nation or we aren't.

And our treaties and obligations need to evolve with the times or get torn up.

 

[FJAG]

There probably isn't one. But, theres always a but, if we want them then we should be able to have them. We're either a sovereign nation or we aren't.

And our treaties and obligations need to evolve with the times or get torn up.

That captures the point.

Simply put we've declined to hold nuclear weapons because our neighbour had them and considered our terrain important enough to provide deterrence through the threat of their weapons against any hostile party. That situation has changed. The current US administration has made it clear that it won't come to the aid of its allies and has cozied up to our most logical opponents.

I'll go a step further. I can foresee two scenarios amongst others. The first is a 1939 Poland gambit whereby our two biggest neighbours decide between themselves that Canada's resources are worth having and sharing us up. The second is the colony gambit whereby the US does protect us as against a threat from Russia or China but extracts "payment" from Canada. Currently we can defend against neither of those in any serious way, given the right weapons Canada will no longer be the low hanging fruit that's easy to pick.

Yup. They're scenarios that seem fantastical but things have happened in the last three years that none of us saw as likely either. It's a whole new world - and not a better one - from the one that I grew up in. It's time to rethink a lot of things.