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Pipelines

  • Thread starter Thread starter QV
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One of the big issues for the Nisga is that the original seed money from the Treaty is gone and they need revenue source. To the point they were going to let a pipeline company dig a trench across their "Sacred lava beds".

What is the situation with them and Lax Kw'alaams? Where did the Nisgaa stand on the Eagle Spirit route to Lax Kw'alaams? Now it seems to be as if they are both back to playing beggar thy neighbour along with the Gityanow (????).
 
It's all pretty academic until we see Carney’s plan(s). There's always a big chance there will be so many barriers put in the way, that no investor will be willing to take it on. Of course, we also now have a minority government that feels they don't have to listen to a majority vote of the House. A huge step toward an officially authoritarian government. All Carney has done is talk, make promises his caucus refutes, he has no plan and feels they don't need a budget in order to spend a half a trillion dollars and don't feel the need to tell us on what it's to be spent on. That we should just trust them. They spent $70 billion during the election run up, with no oversight or Parliamentary approval. Obviously, democratic financial guardrails are something the liberals don't think they have to abide by.

The Premieres' wish list won't see any progress until the new session, maybe. It was more an exercise to quell all the separation talk than anything else. Will we see a budget before November? Not likely. Will Carneey continue to spend taxpayer money, using GG/ OIC during the summer recess? Very likely. Will Carney continue to rule as the sole representative of government? You can pretty well guarantee it.

Carney has already established that the truth is not something he needs concern himself with. He says what you want to hear, then completely ignores what was said. He's a proven liar.

 
What is the situation with them and Lax Kw'alaams? Where did the Nisgaa stand on the Eagle Spirit route to Lax Kw'alaams? Now it seems to be as if they are both back to playing beggar thy neighbour along with the Gityanow (????).
Not heard anything recently.
 
It's all pretty academic until we see Carney’s plan(s). There's always a big chance there will be so many barriers put in the way, that no investor will be willing to take it on. Of course, we also now have a minority government that feels they don't have to listen to a majority vote of the House. A huge step toward an officially authoritarian government. All Carney has done is talk, make promises his caucus refutes, he has no plan and feels they don't need a budget in order to spend a half a trillion dollars and don't feel the need to tell us on what it's to be spent on. That we should just trust them. They spent $70 billion during the election run up, with no oversight or Parliamentary approval. Obviously, democratic financial guardrails are something the liberals don't think they have to abide by.

The Premieres' wish list won't see any progress until the new session, maybe. It was more an exercise to quell all the separation talk than anything else. Will we see a budget before November? Not likely. Will Carneey continue to spend taxpayer money, using GG/ OIC during the summer recess? Very likely. Will Carney continue to rule as the sole representative of government? You can pretty well guarantee it.

Carney has already established that the truth is not something he needs concern himself with. He says what you want to hear, then completely ignores what was said. He's a proven liar.


I'm debating whether to say that video is a straight up lie or grossly misleading, but I tend more towards straight up lie as it offers no actual explanation for how the spending occurred, and explicitly states it was $70 billion spend over the campaign.

The Governor General authorized it for $40 billion to cover routine spending from April 1 to May 15, then another one on May 2 for $33 billion to cover routine spending until June 29. Things like OAS, salaries, the continued existence of the CAF, etc.

Breakdown of spending for 1 Apr to 15 May.

Breakdown of spending for 16 May to 29 June.

3 months of government operations, not 37 days, or about $811 million a day.
 
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It's all pretty academic until we see Carney’s plan

This isn't Carney's plan. Its the first ministers plan. The premiers brought their projects that they wanted to prioritize. All the first ministers (and staff) worked together to short list those projects. Then cabinet will prioritize and fund. Some projects will be green lit immediately and others back burner.

This is an all Canadian effort clearly lead by the PM (though pushed by the premiers). The premiers are happy to let the PM take point because they will take credit for selling it to the feds or more importantly lay the blame at the feet of the feds if it doesn't go well.
 
This isn't Carney's plan. Its the first ministers plan. The premiers brought their projects that they wanted to prioritize. All the first ministers (and staff) worked together to short list those projects. Then cabinet will prioritize and fund. Some projects will be green lit immediately and others back burner.

This is an all Canadian effort clearly lead by the PM (though pushed by the premiers). The premiers are happy to let the PM take point because they will take credit for selling it to the feds or more importantly lay the blame at the feet of the feds if it doesn't go well.
not Carney's doing but then the first nations will block and obfuscate. BC has already stated that they will not allow shipping on the west coast so no pipeline there. Quebec says nothing going east so that is a loser. Looks like Churchill or Port Nelson are the only potential outlets for prairie oil and that will depend on first nation cooperation. The liberals still get all oil export blocked only this time they can blame someone else
 
BC has already stated that they will not allow shipping on the west coast so no pipeline there.
BC doesn't control the waterways, the federal government does. BC can say whatever it wants, but oceans are federal responsibility.
the first nations will block and obfuscate
Fist nations are not a pancea. They are owners of pipelines, natural gas and oil, and some are owners of the LNG plant in BC. Some first nations will block and obfuscate. Others will buy in and be owners and developers.

Quebec says nothing going east so that is a loser
Quebec hasn't said that. The Bloc may have, and the PQ may be saying that, but last I check the current Quebec Premier is open to discussion. Oil shipped by pipeline to the East coast also is a ridiculously expensive thing, the line is so long that pipeline fees would drive the cost to be uneconomical (and would require gov't subsidies). Ontario would probably be as far as you would want to go. Natural gas is a better idea, and that has some legs.

Looks like Churchill or Port Nelson are the only potential outlets for prairie oil and that will depend on first nation cooperation.
Maybe. Certainly its doing good things now since the first nations corporation bought it from the US company. Shipping 20000 tons of zinc to Belgium and working on getting potash shipments out as well. Small numbers compared to even Hamilton ON, but it has a lot of potential. If they brough in a second line across from say Edmonton that would be a game changer. Port is very shallow though, so they need to look at dredging and ice operations as its really only open for a few months properly. As its not ice free its not ideal.
 
Re: Prairie oil to Eastern Canada.

Curious about possible alternatives to the Energy East pipeline across Ontario. IF a pipeline were run to Churchill/Port Nelson would either of these options be viable?

1) Pipeline to Hudson Bay then tanker to East Coast
2) Pipeline to Hudson Bay then tanker to Ontario's proposed James Bay port. New pipeline from there to join the Energy East line at Cochrane which would be much shorter than running across the whole breadth of Ontario. Could also be a Canada-only route to the East avoiding the existing pipeline through Michigan.
 
Further to the "shipping on the west coast" -

All shipping is allowed into Prince Rupert. Containers, Coal and Liquefied Propane Gas have been shipped for years. Even oil, in ships carrying less than 12,500 tonnes.

In addition BC is shipping oil from Vancouver.

Oil is a permissible cargo everywhere in Canada with the exception of the Great Bear Rain Forest.

That decision has already been challenged by the First Nations from Bruderheim to the Dixon Entrance.


THE BILL IN CONTEXT

Your committee believes Bill C-48 cannot be viewed separately from other government initiatives and legislation that, taken together, are having a ruinous effect on Canada’s resource industry and economy, most specifically in Alberta, home to Canada’s oil sands.

Your committee is cognizant of the fact that Bill C-48 was tabled on the same day that the government cancelled the Northern Gateway Pipeline project. It struck your committee as overkill to cancel a pipeline to the coast and then for extra measure, to introduce a bill that prohibits the loading and unloading of crude oil at ports or marine installations in case, by some accident and notwithstanding the cancellation of the Northern Gateway, a pipeline to those ports somehow miraculously appears.

In this regard, it is interesting to note that when the Liberals proposed a tanker ban as part of its environmental package announced on June 29, 2015, in Vancouver, ForestEthics Advocacy, an anti-pipeline group, lauded the Liberal’s proposal to formalize a tanker ban in northern British Columbia as the “final nail in the coffin” for the Northern Gateway Pipeline project.

The government that introduced Bill C-48 is the same government that added so many regulatory hurdles to the Energy East project that it made it impossible for the investor to proceed, and they walked away. They failed to take action to ensure that Kinder Morgan and the Trans Mountain expansion would proceed. It is now locked in limbo with the government refusing to identify a date on which construction will resume. They introduced Bill C-68, which industry representatives believe will put a halt to hydro projects in this country. They also introduced Bills C-55, C-81 and C-88.

They also introduced Bill C-69, a sweeping environmental assessment bill that upends the current review process in favour of a new and supposedly more rigorous one. The Senate is currently examining Bill C-69, the new Impact Assessment Act, which would set new standards for environmental assessment of projects such as new ports, new pipelines and new rail lines. Bill C-69 would require significantly more consultation with Indigenous communities, more consideration of the social and health impacts of energy infrastructure, and rigorous scientific studies of environmental impacts for new projects. Under that legal framework, no interprovincial pipeline or deep water port could go ahead without thorough consultation and study by an independent, arms-length agency. If we have faith in Bill C-69 and the new impact assessment regime, we should not undermine public confidence by imposing a ban that would short-circuit the new independent process before it starts.

Your committee is of the opinion that once Bill C-69 passes into law, if it is as advertised, it would surely make Bill C-48 unnecessary. The rigorous and far-reaching environmental standards and criteria it would impose on major projects, including pipelines, ports and marine installations would surely extend to the impact of relevant projects being developed in the area north of the 50th parallel.

Your committee is also of the opinion that Bill C-48 cannot be viewed separately from the Government of British Columbia’s decision in February 2018 to put a halt to the Trans Mountain expansion. The refusal of the federal government to exert its constitutional authority to push the pipeline through, on the basis of its interprovincial nature, cast doubt in the eyes of investors and of most Canadians – especially those in Alberta - as to the level of commitment the government had to getting any pipeline built to tidewater.

Finally, during its deliberations your committee was extremely sensitive to the economic impact of Bill C-48 and similar bills on the Canadian economy and particularly to the economies of Alberta and Saskatchewan. The Bank of Canada’s Monetary Policy Report of January 2019 noted that the 2 per cent growth in GDP in the third quarter of 2018 was largely supported by government spending and that business investment in the Canadian economy fell in that same quarter, with notable weakness in the energy sector. That sluggishness continued into the first quarter of 2019. A report in the Financial Times on April 30, 2019, noted that falling resource production was the main culprit, with the mining and oil and gas sectors down 1.6%, its sixth consecutive drop.

With this legislation, the cancelling of Energy East, and the indecision of Kinder Morgan, Saskatchewan and Alberta can only export oil to the United States, making us reliant on a foreign country (although a good neighbour). The previous President cancelled Keystone, a Canadian financed pipeline to the Gulf coast. That could happen again. Keystone is not finished yet. Outside of pipelines (the safest method for moving oil) there is only rail and truck - hardly good methods in a so-called sophisticated transportation system. This creates competition for rail capacity traffic with Western Canadian agriculture and other resources like lumber, potash and finished manufactured goods. New railroads are a long way off. This is an indefensible strategy and puts the whole country in jeopardy. More competition for rail use makes it more expensive for other users.

The illogical arguments baffle the mind. Since the logic is to prevent oil spills by reducing the amount of tanker traffic coming and going into Canada then surely Energy East would reduce tanker traffic on the St Lawrence Seaway and the East Coast and for sure the Port of Vancouver. This situation will get worse as there will be increased energy demand in Canada, making us more dependent on foreign oil, which at the moment is not exactly fan friendly oil but rather the product of regimes where few Canadians would want to live.

The government’s inability to get pipelines built and bills like C-48 and C-69 have sent a signal to investors who are staying away from Canadian energy stocks, in spite of the recent, relative recovery in Canadian oil prices.

REASONS WHY THE SENATE SHOULD NOT PROCEED WITH THE BILL

The Bill Does Not Do what it Purports


Your committee believes that Bill C-48 is a case of bait and switch. In the summer of 2015, in the lead up to the federal election campaign, Liberal leader Justin Trudeau travelled to Vancouver to announce his party’s plans for the environment. Included in that announcement was the intention to formalize the voluntary tanker ban off the coast of northern British Columbia. When Minister Garneau appeared before the committee on March 20, 2019, he referenced that announcement as the reason the government was committed to Bill C-48. It was the fulfillment of and an election promise he implied. His exact words were:

“The act formalizes a commitment the Prime Minister made in Vancouver on September 10, 2015, during the last federal election as one of the centrepieces of our plan to protect Canada’s oceans. This was later confirmed in my mandate letter. I want to be clear that we promised this to Canadians during the last election, and I am delivering on that promise. ”When he reappeared before your committee on May 14, 2019, he similarly stated:

“It is certainly my hope that we will be able to go forward with Bill C-48 because it’s in my mandate letter.”

It is worth quoting the portion of the mandate he is referring to. The Prime Minister writes:

“In particular, I will expect you to work with your colleagues and through established legislative, regulatory, and Cabinet processes to deliver on your top priorities.”

One of those priorities identified is to:

“Formalize a moratorium on crude oil tanker traffic on British Columbia’s North Coast, working in collaboration with the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Environment and Climate Change to develop an approach. ”

Your committee is concerned that the approach developed is not a formalization of a moratorium on crude oil tanker traffic on British Columbia’s coast, but more specifically a ban on the unloading and loading of crude oil of more than 12,500 metric tons in Canadian ports along British Columbia’s north coast. Your committee’s suspicions were confirmed in testimony from Professor Ted McDorman of the Faculty of Law at the University of Victoria. Commenting on the tanker restrictions contained in Bill C-48, Professor McDorman testified:

“The legislation that is before you that I have looked at indicates that its application is primarily to the ports. In other words, what it is prohibiting is the tanker traffic not within the waterway itself but from entering and leaving the ports that are designated in that area. As a matter of international law, it would be completely within the jurisdiction of Canada to do, without complaint by any other country.

Now, it is unusual, but it happens, that ports are closed to traffic. As a matter of commercial reality and good neighbourliness, you usually keep your ports open, but a country does have the capacity, as a matter of international law, to close ports to any and all vessels. As I understand it, that is what this bill would do. It closes the ports. It does not affect traffic in the waterway per se.”

Bill C-48 does not formalize a moratorium on crude oil tanker traffic on British Columbia’s north coast. It is not as advertised. While it will do nothing to address the risk of oil spills, it will be extremely effective in landlocking Alberta oil and preventing it from getting to ports in Asia.

The Science/Evidence-Based Case for Bill C-48 is Questionable

There was a lack of detailed scientific explanation or data about why this area specifically was to be subject to a ban on the movement of heavy oil. At best, the decision appeared to be based on outdated or incomplete information.

During hearings on February 20, 2019, Transport Canada Assistant Deputy Minister Lawrence Hanson was asked about this issue by Senator Julie Miville-DechĂŞne. His response was, in effect, that the government was bringing in the ban because it lacked sound scientific data. But it is illogical to bring in a sweeping public policy such as this as a response to a lack of information and studies. Their exchange follows below.

There is room, in my opinion, for reconsideration.
 
Re: Prairie oil to Eastern Canada.

Curious about possible alternatives to the Energy East pipeline across Ontario. IF a pipeline were run to Churchill/Port Nelson would either of these options be viable?

1) Pipeline to Hudson Bay then tanker to East Coast

I believe so.

2) Pipeline to Hudson Bay then tanker to Ontario's proposed James Bay port. New pipeline from there to join the Energy East line at Cochrane which would be much shorter than running across the whole breadth of Ontario. Could also be a Canada-only route to the East avoiding the existing pipeline through Michigan.

There is already a pipeline to Cochcrane. Currently that line trends south to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.


1749135747685.png

One option being considered is to extend from Cochrane east through (roughly) Temiskaming and Rouyn-Noranda to Sept Iles, by-passing urban Quebec completely.
 
Re: Prairie oil to Eastern Canada.

Curious about possible alternatives to the Energy East pipeline across Ontario. IF a pipeline were run to Churchill/Port Nelson would either of these options be viable?

1) Pipeline to Hudson Bay then tanker to East Coast
Possible but why would oil be shipped to the East Coast, juts keep it moving to Europe.
2) Pipeline to Hudson Bay then tanker to Ontario's proposed James Bay port.
Are you asking if they ship it to Churchill via pipelines, then load it on tankers to James Bay, then pipeline it to Refineries on the East Coast?
New pipeline from there to join the Energy East line at Cochrane which would be much shorter than running across the whole breadth of Ontario. Could also be a Canada-only route to the East avoiding the existing pipeline through Michigan.
I would build a Refinery in Churchill, ship the oil there, refine it and then ship it to the European Market. I would cut out the East Coast market. If they want to buy Canadian Oil then they can pay for a Tanker to bring it to them.

The amount of opposition to the Energy East program including both unrefined and refined oil products along with Natural Gas is absolutely sad. But now that there seems to be a bit of movement over using Churchill as a port. Ontario magically has a new solution, build their own mega port. Go figure good for me but not for thee.

If the Manitoba Government was smart they would sign a 200 year deal with Alberta and create a port facility in Churchill. For not only oil and gas but all trade with Europe. Including sustainable Western Canada Grain and food products.
 
People keep talking about Northern Gateway.
They should be talking about Eagle Spirit.

First Nations behind Eagle Spirit pipelines hope to get clarity from gov't before moving forward​

Pipeline corridor would span from Fort McMurray, Alta., to Prince Rupert, B.C.​

Sarah Rieger · CBC News · Posted: Jul 08, 2019 8:43 PM MDT | Last Updated: July 8, 2019
1749145015175.png


 
PS -

1,000,000 Barrels WCS per day
158,987 m3 per day
147,857 tonnes per day (930 kg/m3)
12,500 tonnes per ship (maximum load permitted per bill C-48)
12 ships per day
1 sailing every two hours.

Perfectly legal.

....

The time it takes to fill a tanker in Burnaby can vary. For example, an LNG carrier might take 20 hours for loading, but potentially longer if the vessel needs to be cooled down first, potentially taking up to 30 hours, according to bsm-highlights.com. Oil tankers, depending on their size and the specific loading/unloading system, could take up to 24 hours. The Dubai Angel, an Aframax tanker, departed from the Westridge Marine Terminal in Burnaby after loading 550,000 barrels of oil.

Based on this 550,000 barrels in 24 hours then 1,000,000 barrels in ~48 hours or 4 hours per each of 12 ships.

4 hours to load, 2 to 3 ships dockside, one sailing every 2 hours.

And a very busy Harbourmaster.
 
I would build a Refinery in Churchill, ship the oil there, refine it and then ship it to the European Market. I would cut out the East Coast market. If they want to buy Canadian Oil then they can pay for a Tanker to bring it to them.
You don't ship refined product (normally) because that's actually about 30 different things (oils, bitumen, diesel, gasoline, natural gas, methane, lubricants, additives etc. etc...). You ship unrefined product and ship from the refinery to local markets. Much more economical.
The amount of opposition to the Energy East program including both unrefined and refined oil products along with Natural Gas is absolutely sad.
Energy east as I posted earlier is an uneconomical nightmare due to the cost of pumping that product that far. Its much cheaper to actually put the oil in a tanker and sail it around from the West Coast. You have to let go of the fantasy that Quebec killed energy east. Economics killed it before they province even had a chance to get their punches in. (I don't doubt Quebec would have killed it though).

Energy East being economical is a zombie lie that needs to die. It's not. That's why Churchill is being touted as an alternative. Much much much cheaper shipping.

But now that there seems to be a bit of movement over using Churchill as a port. Ontario magically has a new solution, build their own mega port. Go figure good for me but not for thee.
Not magical or new, just new to you. They were looking at this for the Ring of Fire for a reason.

The railway distance between Toronto and Churchill is almost equal to that between Toronto and Vancouver. A comparatively short distance of railway line extends north from Toronto to within 12 miles of James Bay. The cost of railway transportation per unit of distance is much higher that that of waterway transportation - hence the interest in developing a port on James Bay, which would be within relatively close proximity to the Greater Toronto Area. Trans-Arctic summer sailing is beginning to make it possible for ships to sail between North American East Coast ports and East Asian ports, as well as North American Pacific ports.


If the Manitoba Government was smart they would sign a 200 year deal with Alberta and create a port facility in Churchill. For not only oil and gas but all trade with Europe. Including sustainable Western Canada Grain and food products.
Manitoba doesn't own the port. The port is owned by a local indigenous corporation (as is the rail line).

Churchill is already in a period of renewal. Its getting repaired and built out. If the Feds step in it will accelerate the process. Alberta isn't going to fund it, and neither will Manitoba.
 
You don't ship refined product (normally) because that's actually about 30 different things (oils, bitumen, diesel, gasoline, natural gas, methane, lubricants, additives etc. etc...). You ship unrefined product and ship from the refinery to local markets. Much more economical.
Wrong.... pipelines ship unrefined, upgraded and refined products all the time.
Energy east as I posted earlier is an uneconomical nightmare due to the cost of pumping that product that far.
According to who? .
Its much cheaper to actually put the oil in a tanker and sail it around from the West Coast.
Tankers are not economical to ship product. But in many cases they are the only way to ship that product
You have to let go of the fantasy that Quebec killed energy east. Economics killed it before they province even had a chance to get their punches in. (I don't doubt Quebec would have killed it though).
Yet they ship NGL products via trains all the time east.
Eastern refineries killed buying any large volume of Western Canadian oil. Due to the cheap foreign oil being bought, shipped and then sold again. Follow a few of the money trails to see why Western Canadian Oil and NG is not the major supplier for Canadian Eastern Refineries.
Energy East being economical is a zombie lie that needs to die. It's not. That's why Churchill is being touted as an alternative. Much much much cheaper shipping.
Lol your wrong but OK.
Churchill is being looked at for shipping to the European Markets and beyond due to the energy east pipelines being dead in the water from Eastern Canada refusing them to be built. Not because it is a cheaper way to do things.
Not magical or new, just new to you. They were looking at this for the Ring of Fire for a reason.

The railway distance between Toronto and Churchill is almost equal to that between Toronto and Vancouver. A comparatively short distance of railway line extends north from Toronto to within 12 miles of James Bay. The cost of railway transportation per unit of distance is much higher that that of waterway transportation - hence the interest in developing a port on James Bay, which would be within relatively close proximity to the Greater Toronto Area. Trans-Arctic summer sailing is beginning to make it possible for ships to sail between North American East Coast ports and East Asian ports, as well as North American Pacific ports.



Manitoba doesn't own the port. The port is owned by a local indigenous corporation (as is the rail line).

Churchill is already in a period of renewal. Its getting repaired and built out. If the Feds step in it will accelerate the process. Alberta isn't going to fund it, and neither will Manitoba.
Disagree about funding the port. Both provincial and federal funds are being used. Never let facts get in the way of a good discussion.
 
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