Political impacts of Ukraine war
- Thread starter KevinB
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At the end of the day the only thing really driving Trump is his desire to point at a ceasefire or peace deal, no matter how bad it is for Ukraine, so he can thump his just and crow about how “ I got a peacedeal/ ceasefire….Bidens war but only I could end!! Me me me”……a heroin his own ego-driven mind.
HavokFour
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Ukraine and Europe have already made it clear Trump's current proposal is completely unacceptable. Their Alaska meeting is just going to be another dog and pony show at this point if nothing changes.
Ukraine, Europe reject Putin's ceasefire proposal, present counterproposal to US ahead of Trump-Putin meeting, WSJ reports
Ukrainian and European officials rejected Russian President Vladimir Putin's proposal for a ceasefire in exchange for Kyiv to cede its eastern territories to Russia, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported on Aug. 9.
kyivindependent.com
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As I’ve said, would love it if his plane somehow got diverted to the Yukon and we somehow got him shipped off to Den Hague.Ukraine and Europe have already made it clear Trump's current proposal is completely unacceptable. Their Alaska meeting is just going to be another dog and pony show at this point if nothing changes.
Ukraine, Europe reject Putin's ceasefire proposal, present counterproposal to US ahead of Trump-Putin meeting, WSJ reports
Ukrainian and European officials rejected Russian President Vladimir Putin's proposal for a ceasefire in exchange for Kyiv to cede its eastern territories to Russia, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported on Aug. 9.
Do you want to bet that the land going back to Ukraine is the portion that has the rare minerals in it and Russia gets to keep the wheat fieldsUkraine and Europe have already made it clear Trump's current proposal is completely unacceptable. Their Alaska meeting is just going to be another dog and pony show at this point if nothing changes.
Ukraine, Europe reject Putin's ceasefire proposal, present counterproposal to US ahead of Trump-Putin meeting, WSJ reports
Ukrainian and European officials rejected Russian President Vladimir Putin's proposal for a ceasefire in exchange for Kyiv to cede its eastern territories to Russia, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported on Aug. 9.
McG
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Never been such a thing.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia
McG
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Not once.
en.m.wikipedia.org
First Partition of Poland - Wikipedia
Brad Sallows
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What part of Ukraine is the other major power taking possession of?
Where do the former non-Russian "Pact" members fit in, I wonder. I have never found information that suggested they were deeply consulted.
Way to completely miss the point, and to simultaneously pretend Trump isn’t motivated purely by mercenary self interest.
Brad Sallows
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Oh, I understood the point and where the hint was aimed. All Hitler, all the time here.
No, so far only occasionally, slightly, and incidentally.
I was pointing to a shitty historical allegory. Those who sell out other countries tend not to be the good guys. And in this case it’s not merely hypothetical; Trump has attempted both historically and recently to coerce or extort Ukraine through granting or withholding support for its defence or sovereignty. Historically he tried to coerce nakedly partisan foreign prosecutorial action in exchange for military aid. He has recently tried to extort major liberal concessions from Ukraine. The fact that he wasn’t ultimately particularly succesful doesn’t negate the attempt.
If Trump, his supporters, his enablers, or his apologists don’t welcome the historical comparisons, maybe he should try not making history rhyme, even if the words aren’t the same.
Brad Sallows
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It isn't Trump and his supporters desperately stretching every possible point to make history rhyme. Germany and Russia explicitly carved up all of Poland between them. That isn't happening now.
There is no point in direct negotiation between Russia and Ukraine at present, unless Russia is willing to revert to status quo ante 2022 let alone 2014, or Ukraine is willing to permanently give up territory. Something approximating shuttle diplomacy, no matter how sloppy and regardless whether it is intended or not, is the next closest thing.
But Trump admittedly is an unlikely prospect for negotiating peace. He should stand aside and let the other serious peace brokers, who have been working so hard at a diplomatic solution rather than preparing for military escalation, take over.
No. They just actually do the things that bring forth those historical allegories.
No you’re right; only some of it. I forgot that if you don’t do the whole history in its entirety all at once, it doesn’t count and the lessons that should be drawn (but aren’t) were never actually valid.
Shuttle diplomacy is when you pass the messages between the sides; not talk to the one and try to impose your own private deal on the invasion’s victim.
The only part of your whole post you accidentally got right was when right at the end you conceded a ‘take over’.
The U.S. isn’t really negotiating with Russia over Ukraine with anything close to honest intent. Trump is looking to aggrandize himself by giving Putin a tickle and a kiss an offering him some success out of his botched conquest. In a rare case where morality and pragmatism actually align, the U.S. should recognize and assert their economic and military dominance against one of the few actors that actually tangibly deserves it, apply ruthless secondary sanctions to break Russia economically, board and seize its ghost fleet at sea, and very generously provision Ukraine to kill Russians and break their kit until they turn around and leave. Ukraine itself has managed to fight Russia to a stalemate with just what it’s already been given. The U.S. could do all of these things, state Russia down, and say “Do something about it. Or leave Ukraine.”
Maybe, once they’re broken enough, Russia will be worth negotiating with. As long as Trump still gives Putin the wink and nod, that won’t happen.
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And yet, Trump's about to sell Ukraine down the river to save Putin's bacon and call himself a peacemaker. This is what you get when you have a leader with no idea of what a long-term strategy is.No real shock
$62B deficit, five months early: Russia’s economy runs on fumes
Russia’s 2025 budget deficit hit $62B by July — 25% over its annual target. The Kremlin faces mounting pressure, but won’t cut war spending.euromaidanpress.com
Brad Sallows
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Trump does something, and the next thing up is "You know who else did something like that? Hitler!". None of the multitude of other similar situations count; it's always "Hitler". That's lazy.
There are lots of templates for diplomatic and military settlements of issues. Find one that fits instead of draping a Nazi flag over everything.
Sure. Risk starting the broader war that for months and months and months so many people, including so many people here, were cautioning each other about stumbling into.
To repeat a theme: how many other peoples' (Ukrainian, Russian, other) lost and ruined lives are justified before conceding Russia won't break enough? Is there a limit? State one if there is, bearing in mind the only possible alternative to a finite limit is none at all.
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Give the Ukrainians the green light to attempt regime change in Russia if Zelenskyy is willing to risk his own life in the process.
PrairieFella
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It was an idealistic approach to an optimistic time. Landmines are awful and affect civilians for decades after the guns fall silent. In my mind, the Ottawa Treaty in intent was no different than the Geneva Conventions, to reduce the suffering in the Hell that is war. A noble goal but darker times hamper that.
Von Ribbentrop, more precisely. Spend less time mad about the comparison and more time mad about the actions leading to it. I rarely draw the allusion to 1930s/40s Germany, but sometimes it fits.
If the comparison fits, I’ll use it. If you object to the validity of a comparison on a factual basis feel free to argue that point. It would be more productive than getting upset about the picture others see it painting.
Yes, correct. Risk that. The Russians don’t have what they would need to actually fight such a war and they know it. They can’t even defeat Ukraine outright.
That’s a false premise, I don’t concede that Russia won’t break enough. The collective west has collectively passed up on seriously trying, the U.S. first and foremost among them as the power most capable of doing so. How many Ukrainian lives? That’s for them to decide. They have a democratically elected government. How many Russian lives? I truly don’t care so long as the toll paid by Russia is incurred within the laws of armed conflict. They’re the unprovoked aggressor; if they don’t want soldiers or those working in support of the war effort to die, they could stop the war in a heartbeat. And outside of Russians (and those they conscript) and Ukrainians, nobody else presently is dying or being ‘ruined’ in any meaningful way over this. Could more forceful action by the U.S. and the rest of the west change that? I accept to a small degree it might… And then Russia would learn very quickly why the U.S. doesn’t have socialized healthcare. But the threat of a serious Russian war against the west is a phantom. They’re a bully looking for a pliant victim, not a real fight. Even looking for the former they screwed up and found the latter.
On the original subject: Ukrainian lives and lands are not Trump’s to bargain away.
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