The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[SeaKingTacco]

So Carney will be in the UAE and South Afrika from 18 Nov to 24 Nov. Won't be in Ottawa/Montreal with the K&Q of Sweden arrive.

It is a head of State visit. That is GG territory.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It is a head of State visit. That is GG territory.

100% true.

Hopefully she'll be over her virus.

 

[GR66]

100% true.

Hopefully she'll be over her virus.

If I'm not mistaken if the GG is unable to fulfil their duties their role is fulfilled by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court

 

[Kirkhill]

Another Gripen promo...

Saab Gripen E vs Gripen C: Key upgrades explained

Saab Gripen E is a revamped fighter with larger frame, F414 engine, AESA radar, IRST, sensor fusion and EW suite to counter Russian threats.

aerospaceglobalnews.com

 

[MilEME09]

10k high tech jobs would be a big deal for our economy

Swedish manufacturer SAAB says 10,000 jobs could land in Canada

Swedish manufacturer says 10,000 new jobs could soon come to Canada

The Swedish manufacturer of the Gripen fighter jet, SAAB, says ten thousand manufacturing and research jobs could land in Canada if Ottawa adds the aircraft to its military fleet.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[SeaKingTacco]

10k high tech jobs would be a big deal for our economy

Swedish manufacturer SAAB says 10,000 jobs could land in Canada

Swedish manufacturer says 10,000 new jobs could soon come to Canada

The Swedish manufacturer of the Gripen fighter jet, SAAB, says ten thousand manufacturing and research jobs could land in Canada if Ottawa adds the aircraft to its military fleet.

www.ctvnews.ca

“Could”.

Minus the F35 jobs we would lose, right?

 

[MilEME09]

“Could”.

Minus the F35 jobs we would lose, right?

Quick Google is about 3000 jobs, so that would be a net increase of 7k ish jobs if we buy enough of them.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Quick Google is about 3000 jobs, so that would be a net increase of 7k ish jobs if we buy enough of them.

“If”.

 

[ytz]

Well then, I'm going to say that we about to announce a Gripen with Rolls-Royce engines - along with 2+ squadrons of F35's.

That's the running rumor. 30-40 Panthers. 60-70 Gripens. This is going to suck for the RCAF. I'm praying we don't also commit to the Globaleye. Especially now that NATO is cancelling the E-7.

 

[ytz]

The engines are but a minor part of the ITAR controlled aspects in that jet.

But a significant part of the value. I think the intent here is:

1) Keep dollars in Canada.
2) Keep dollars away from the US.

Yeah Canada way to go, yet another orphan fleet.

I'm no Gripen fan. But how is this an orphan fleet?

 

[ytz]

Understood. But keep in mind we have suggested that Ukraine buy new F-16’s from us, so I tend to doubt that Congress will block any sales to Ukraine for production aircraft (other than F-35).

Guaranteed way to tank American defence sales even further. Imagine not giving Ukraine aid and then moving to cut them off from buying kit elsewhere.

If that happens (and I don't think it will), you'll see French defence products become massively popular in Europe.

Keep in mind that several F-35 European orders are now in jeopardy. It's not just Canada.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Globe and Mail article is seemingly the most complete on this topic compared the others, but it's paywalled so here is the complete article in a quote.

Saab CEO confirms talks with Ottawa, Bombardier for Gripen fighter jet production

Talks to continue during royal visit of Sweden’s King and Queen to Canada next week

www.theglobeandmail.com

Saab AB chief executive officer Micael Johansson confirmed on Thursday that his company is in talks with the federal government and Bombardier Inc. BBD-B-T to build Saab’s Gripen fighter jet under licence in Canada, which he said could create 10,000 jobs in the country and spawn a research network to develop other aircraft, including drones.

“If Canada wants to create sovereign capabilities, not only buying planes, we are prepared to do that tech transfer for Canada,” Mr. Johansson said in an interview at Saab AB’s headquarters in Stockholm. “We are talking collaboration.”

The talks are to continue Nov. 18 to Nov. 20 during the royal visit of Sweden’s King Carl XVI Gustaf and Queen Silvia to Canada. Their entourage is to include senior Saab executives, the country’s Defence Minister, Pal Jonson, Industry Minister Ebba Busch and representatives of some 60 Swedish companies.

In an interview, Mr. Jonson confirmed that he will be meeting with his Canadian counterpart, David McGuinty, as well as Bombardier CEO Éric Martel.

He said that Sweden’s small size means that it doesn’t have the capabilities to pump out Gripens in great quantities as new orders arrive.

“We’re not looking for clients, we’re looking for partners,” he said. “For us, being a smaller country, it is vital for us to share maintaining the cost of that [Gripen] platform and enhancing it during its lifecycle span.”

The 10,000 jobs would be created from the Gripen’s final assembly and from the supply of components. “There will be research and development centres also,” Mr. Johansson said.

The Gripen talks come after Canada has already ordered 88 F-35 stealth fighters from Lockheed Martin of the U.S. but has paid for only 16 of them. Mark Carney put the rest of the order under review shortly after he became Prime Minister in March.

Saab’s desire to find another Gripen production location intensified last month, when Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson signed a letter of intent for Ukraine’s purchase of 100 to 150 Gripen “E” series, the most advanced version of the jet. Mr. Johannson said it was “absolutely” possible for Canada to build the plane for both Ukraine and the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Neither Mr. Johansson nor Mr. Jonson would confirm that Saab’s negotiations with Bombardier were close to a firm deal, but there were suggestions that the talks were progressing well. The King and Queen are scheduled to visit a Bombardier factory in Montreal, where the interiors of the company’s business jets are designed and installed.

At the same time, Saab and Bombardier are examining possible sites to build the Gripen, since the Bombardier factories in Montreal at Toronto’s Pearson airport, where the Bombardier 6000 and 6500 series and Challenger business jets are made, do not have ample spare capacity.

“You are definitely looking at a new factory somewhere,” Mr. Johnansson said. “We assume that we will have to build something new.”

Ontario has already begun its lobbying campaign to try to secure as much Gripen work as possible. Development Minister Vic Fedeli recently visited Sweden, where he met with Saab deputy CEO Anders Carp.

In an interview with The Globe and Mail, Mr. Fedeli said, “If incentives are required, we could consider them,” referring to potential sweeteners to persuade Saab and Bombardier to assemble the planes in Ontario.

Building the Gripen in Canada would present political and economic dilemmas for the government and the military.

A senior source in Ottawa close to the Saab-Bombardier talks said Mr. Carney is worried about “retaliation” from U.S. President Donald Trump if the rest of the F-35 order – 72 aircraft – is cancelled.

He said that Canada would perhaps buy 32 to 40 F-35s and add 60 to 70 of the non-stealth, though far cheaper, Gripens to the RCAF fleet. The Globe and Mail is not identifying the source because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

The source added that many senior military and procurement officials in the Department of National Defence oppose running a dual fleet – F-35s and Gripens – because of the expense of maintaining two aircraft laden with sophisticated software, electronics and weapons systems, plus training two sets of pilots and engineers.

But many of the biggest NATO countries run dual fleets. Italy, for instance, flies F-35s and the Eurofighter Typhoon, as does Britain.

Saab already has a close ties to Bombardier. The Saab GlobalEye surveillance jet, equipped with a radar that can spot planes or missiles 450 kilometres away, is based on Bombardier’s large business jets that are built at Pearson. They are fitted with advanced radar and air-to-ground surveillance systems in Sweden.

Canada is considering buying the GlobalEye. Mr. Johansson would not confirm the rumours the government is on the verge of ordering six of the aircraft. “I would love that to be true,” he said.

He said that Saab has also formed relationships with Quebec’s CAE Inc., which makes flights simulators for training, and IMP Group of Halifax, whose aerospace and defence business makes aerostructures, electronics and has an aircraft-maintenance division.

The claim about 10,000 jobs sounds to me like typical headline clickbait, as I have a hard time seeing how component production and final assembly alongside some dubious R&D work could get that many people employed. How much good is tech transfers from a nation who's struggled to sell their souped up, 1980's light fighter for a decade+? Partnering with this company in 2025 who have never produced a 5th generation fighter or any modern aircraft drones of note?

Going through the effort to set up a facility to build components and do final assembly on 60-70 jets, only to likely close the line because there is no other customers. Ukraine's interest in 150-300 Gripen's is fantasy at best, and the Gripen E is about as popular as a glass of soured milk on the export market. 3-5 years and likely billions to set up this facility in Canada, to get yesterdays aircraft nobody seems to want? 32-40 F-35A's out of our 88 order could very well see other members of the JSF program/F-35 customers asking questions as to why contracts remain with a country that clearly has lost interest in the platform. Potential pressure on the contracts to be split up or sent abroad, away from Canadian companies.

Not even touching the countless issues that a mixed fleet brings, with both aircraft doing the same job but one distinctively worse in capability but somewhat cheaper in cost. The RCAF is in a pickle as it is, enjoy two separate high tech fast jet designs sitting in your hangers.

I'm sure the US and our allies will take this news well, Trump has never punished his allies before or anything over much smaller slights....

This is the most stereotypically Canadian outcome possible, cut down the sensible order of modern, interoperable and capable equipment only to supplement it with a largely inferior system, built in Canada, that has little hope of export onto the foreign market. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, hopefully more educated heads within the RCAF and Govt will prevail and finally put this decade+ long Gripen debacle behind us.

That jet is like a bad Ex that simply won't go away.

 

[MilEME09]

I'm no Gripen fan. But how is this an orphan fleet?

Definitely isnt with over 300 built, 3 soon to be 4 European users, Brazil, Thailand, other potentials as well. Add in 80-100 canadian and the Ukrainian order and thats over 500 planes built

 

[ytz]

Definitely isnt with over 300 built, 3 soon to be 4 European users, Brazil, Thailand, other potentials as well. Add in 80-100 canadian and the Ukrainian order and thats over 500 planes built

To be fair. I don't think the 300 number is fair. The Gripen C/D and E/F are as different as the legacy and Super Hornet. Total Super Gripen orders are for ~100 frames so far with something like 15-20 delivered. But yeah, not an orphan fleet. Just a small and eclectic user base.

 

[ytz]

Globe and Mail article is seemingly the most complete on this topic compared the others, but it's paywalled so here is the complete article in a quote.

Saab CEO confirms talks with Ottawa, Bombardier for Gripen fighter jet production

Talks to continue during royal visit of Sweden’s King and Queen to Canada next week

www.theglobeandmail.com

The claim about 10,000 jobs sounds to me like typical headline clickbait, as I have a hard time seeing how component production and final assembly alongside some dubious R&D work could get that many people employed. How much good is tech transfers from a nation who's struggled to sell their souped up, 1980's light fighter for a decade+? Partnering with this company in 2025 who have never produced a 5th generation fighter or any modern aircraft drones of note?

Going through the effort to set up a facility to build components and do final assembly on 60-70 jets, only to likely close the line because there is no other customers. Ukraine's interest in 150-300 Gripen's is fantasy at best, and the Gripen E is about as popular as a glass of soured milk on the export market. 3-5 years and likely billions to set up this facility in Canada, to get yesterdays aircraft nobody seems to want? 32-40 F-35A's out of our 88 order could very well see other members of the JSF program/F-35 customers asking questions as to why contracts remain with a country that clearly has lost interest in the platform. Potential pressure on the contracts to be split up or sent abroad, away from Canadian companies.

Not even touching the countless issues that a mixed fleet brings, with both aircraft doing the same job but one distinctively worse in capability but somewhat cheaper in cost. The RCAF is in a pickle as it is, enjoy two separate high tech fast jet designs sitting in your hangers.

I'm sure the US and our allies will take this news well, Trump has never punished his allies before or anything over much smaller slights....

This is the most stereotypically Canadian outcome possible, cut down the sensible order of modern, interoperable and capable equipment only to supplement it with a largely inferior system, built in Canada, that has little hope of export onto the foreign market. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, hopefully more educated heads within the RCAF and Govt will prevail and finally put this decade+ long Gripen debacle behind us.

That jet is like a bad Ex that simply won't go away.

Remember when I said I was worried? Once Joli started openly lobbying and they had Bombardier on side, that's when I started getting worried.

With the rumoured numbers, I wonder if we make an asymmetric fleet. Gripens at both bases. Panthers all in Cold Lake.

I don't see how the Americans won't be upset. The only question is whether the retaliation will be just economic or we get hurt on the military relationship.

 

[OldSolduer]

If we stop the purchase of the F 35 not only will Trump be upset but American industry will be too.

What happens with NORAD?

 

[MilEME09]

To be fair. I don't think the 300 number is fair. The Gripen C/D and E/F are as different as the legacy and Super Hornet. Total Super Gripen orders are for ~100 frames so far with something like 15-20 delivered. But yeah, not an orphan fleet. Just a small and eclectic user base.

Dont forget the Swedes are offering full tech transfer, supporting the fleet becomes a lot easier then

 

[ytz]

What happens with NORAD?

Good question.

I presume we're buying 30-40 Panthers so that NORAD doesn't get axed.

If we stop the purchase of the F 35 not only will Trump be upset but American industry will be too.

Massively plays into Trump's worldview that allies are screwing over the US. Cause this deal is literally two NATO allies that are banking on the US for protection from Russia.

 

[HavokFour]

Saab also has plans on a UCAV variant of the Gripen E (Loyal wingman anyone?), what are the chances this is the reason why they want to build here.

 

[ytz]

Dont forget the Swedes are offering full tech transfer, supporting the fleet becomes a lot easier then

This one is debatable to me. Full tech transfer doesn't mean much unless the supply chain is substantially developed in Canada. But then how is that profitable for Saab? They never talk about Canadian content and supply chains. Just assembly and vague assertions to R&D.