The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[FJAG]

Ok, I looked and there never was an order placed as far as I can see. It also didn’t figure in Harper’s budget after 2011 nor his platform in 2015 after 4 years with a majority. Only an intent, no actual deal.

With a crashing economy and a desire to bring back a balanced budget. Lots of stuff was pushed out a horizon or two.

 

[Maxman1]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saab-sweden-canada-fighters-f35-9.6987069

In just the span of a few days, we're already seeing flip flopping from "purchasing Gripens is not a prerequisite to setting up an assembly line for fighters in Canada with Canadian partners" to saying "it doesn’t make sense to go to the trouble of establishing another facility and transferring technology without an order from Canada." It sounds like Sweden's Defence Minister needs to talk with Saab's CEO to figure out what this bid actually is and what we're on the hook for potentially.

Amusingly enough, the article starts poking holes in Saab's claimed jobs generation.



By the way, Brazil signed their contract with Saab in 2014 and just inaugurated their final assembly line in 2023, with the first jets apparently being assembled in Brazil sometime this year? Saab is telling us it will take between 3-5 years to deliver those 10,000 jobs throughout the factory, supply chains, construction, indirect jobs, R&D, etc (with 3 years being aircraft deliveries from outside of Canadian factories and 5 years with aircraft being delivered directly from those Canadian factories) when Brazil clearly doesn't reflect the realism of such a proposal. As much as I'd like to say Canadian aviation industry is leagues more advanced than Brazil, we really aren't at the end of the day when they have a company like Embraer that is basically doing what Bombardier does, but potentially better given their military contracts abroad.

Saab must really think we're idiots to suggest it could start deliveries in three years.

 

[dapaterson]

Saab must really think we're idiots to suggest it could start deliveries in three years.

To the contrary, they are saying that they would reshuffle their current delivery schedule to privilege our order.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

To the contrary, they are saying that they would reshuffle their current delivery schedule to privilege our order.

Uh. Huh.

Sure.

 

[Jarnhamar]

To the contrary, they are saying that they would reshuffle their current delivery schedule to privilege our order.

I think Maxman1 is correct. The CEO of Saab said:

If a Saab facility is stood up, the first Canadian-manufactured Gripens would be rolling off the assembly line in “roughly, between, three and five years depending on the setup,” he said.

 

[Maxman1]

To the contrary, they are saying that they would reshuffle their current delivery schedule to privilege our order.

In other words, screw over their existing customers.

Everything Saab has offered seems desperate.

 

[ytz]

I know nobody is interested in this space stuff but what the hey!

Any thoughts @ytz

Canada Deepens Space Ties with Europe Through Historic Investment

Today, at the SpaceBound 2025 Conference, the Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Industry and Minister responsible for Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions, made the historic announcement that Canada will increase its investment to European Space Agency (ESA) programs by $528.5...

ca.finance.yahoo.com

Giddy up. Time to grow CSpO beyond Nine Eyes.

More interestingly we're also developing a sovereign launch capability. Something our Commander has pushed for.

Rocket launch proves to be a milestone for budding Nova Scotia spaceport

Single-stage rocket didn’t achieve intended goal of reaching 100 km in altitude, but sets the stage for more activity

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[ytz]

Great question. Why don't we have one yet?

Partly politics like you mention. But also partly because we insisted that all deliveries be TR3 and Block IV ready. And also because of the massive infrastructure renewal we knew was required.

 

[YZT580]

Not sure I'd be so quick to throw shade at Brazil. Sure we are a more advanced nation, but I think some introspection about how troubled Canadian industry can be should be in order. There should be a realistic discussion about the viability of this proposal, we should not allow it to be clouded by patriotic chest thumbing and condescension towards the only other partner who's done what is proposed for us.

Brazil has the C390 (home grown) we have the CC138 and it is currently down to a fleet of 4 all banished to the north country

 

[FJAG]

Uh. Huh.

Sure.

This

Brazil to buy used Gripen jets from Sweden to bridge gap

Brazil is in talks with Sweden to buy used Gripen C/D jets as F-5 and AMX fleets retire and Gripen E/F deliveries face long delays.

aerospaceglobalnews.com

I must admit I've been enjoying this thread quite a bit. Being a mud gunner my closest contact with the RCAF is a father-in-law and a brother in law who were and are retired RCAF pilots.

The thread has been quite informative and has certainly had me rethinking my position a few times. One thing hasn't changed though - I still firmly believe that getting 88 F-35s should be non negotiable.

 

[childs56]

Truly insanity for Canada to use a > $100M fighter as an air show plane.

Yet there is Airshow, F16s, F35, F22, B52 and the list goes on and on.

 

[lenaitch]

An automobile plant that turns out vehicles is an assembly plant more than a manufacturing plant. Canada has, what, five or six? All subsidiaries of foreign companies. Those plants assemble parts that come in from all over the world; including Canada, but also from places like the US, China, Mexico and Vietnam. Again, most are owned by other countries.

We don't have as much control over the automobile industry as you think we do.

 

[childs56]

Well keep in mind that various user nations have been asked if they wanted to contribute airframes and pilots to the test pool.
Guess the number of takers…

That funny, manufacturer states they are going to do this by this time line. Realizes they cant even come close so ask the customers for their resources and input to make it work.

Car factories are optimized for highvolume production of relatively simple components. Fighter jets require precision manufacturing. Aerospace grade components need tight tolerances, specialized alloys and advanced machining.

Some catchy words in there, Tolerances are across the board, some tighter then others. All achievable by trained professionals. Which we have a lot of those in Canada believe it or not.

I recall Aerospace engineers, avionics technicians, and other related specialists are in short supply.

Skilled trades across all industries are in short supply. But if you offer good pay and long term work they will come out of the wood work.

Training auto workers to these levels would take years, not months.

Disagree. I worked in both industries.

We'd need all new supply chains.

Disagree, we already have supply chains, just need to expand them and optimize how they function. the last part is the biggest issue for Canada.

The Gripen uses engines and avionics that are mostly US or European made.I'm pretty sure the Gripen still uses quite a number of other US parts as well. We would need licenses, international cooperation, and all new supply chains. Supply chains the US could easily (and likely) sabotage.

They could and then would loose even more customers.

We could retrain and retool some aspects of the auto industry. It doesn't seem plausible or economically efficient to me.

Yet we put road blocks up for reasons we don't fully understand.

Carney identifies as Europen so it's not a surprise he would want to buddy up with Sweden.

If we're going to dump that amount of money into this industry, then we should make our own fighters and sell them.

Things will be easier if we partner up with a already set up partner.

 

[Maxman1]

Yet there is Airshow, F16s, F35, F22, B52 and the list goes on and on.

Yes, and? Those aren't used exclusively for air shows like the Tutor is (and even that was originally our trainer plane before it became obsolete in that role). They're active duty aircraft seconded for demonstrations.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Looks like you're right, and I was wrong about the order being canceled. Harper signaled a commitment to buy them but never pulled the trigger before he lost the election.
Then Trudeau canceled the plan to buy it all together. Then changed his mind and placed an order in 2023. And now we might get some token F35s. Or a bunch. Quite the shell game.

Trudeau in 2015 vowed to scrap the F-35. There wasn’t an order with Harper just intent. Trudeau canceled nothing. They played this numbers game to delay buying anything. The numbers changed from 65 to 88. Talk of getting Super Hornets as an interim to bump the numbers. I think Boeing was lobbying pretty hard then. Airforce started a competition a couple years after the election. Picked up 2nd hand Hornets from Australia. Another waste of money. At one point in the competition it seemed as if there was a leaning towards Rafale, but it was out when the French were unwilling to code share. I can’t remember why Typhoon was eliminated. It may have been cost, dunno. That left SAAb & LM. After much knuckle dragging an order was finally placed. This was secured with a down payment. As much as I dislike Trudeau, his government started the ball rolling, but they should have signed a contract for 65 min. Again kicking the can down the road on the military like every government since Pierre. Oh yuk, that name puts a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Nvlgzr]

To the contrary, they are saying that they would reshuffle their current delivery schedule to privilege our order.

So Ukraine gets screwed on delivery? This sounds a bit like TKMS saying they can supply us when they already have orders in the pipeline.

 

[childs56]

Yes, and? Those aren't used exclusively for air shows like the Tutor is (and even that was originally our trainer plane before it became obsolete in that role). They're active duty aircraft seconded for demonstrations.

Blue Angels and Thunderbirds do.

 

[Maxman1]

Blue Angels and Thunderbirds do.

Both of whom just use their standard fighter jet, which can be readied for combat service in under 72 hours, not a bespoke jet bought exclusively for the teams. But if you are going to use something not already in the inventory, it should at least be something actually cheap, which a $150+ million fighter jet is not.

 

[RangerRay]

There aren’t many Air Forces that use operational fighter aircraft in their aerobatic teams. Most use trainer aircraft.

 

[Maxman1]

The US is unique in that way because of the sheer amount of fighter jets they have.