2025 U.S. - Venezuela conflict
- Thread starter brihard
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HavokFour
Army.ca Veteran
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Pete better hope there isn't real weight behind the allegations of what he ordered.
www.independent.co.uk
Senators to investigate Pete Hegseth ‘kill everybody’ allegations
GOP Senator Roger Wicker, Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and Democratic Senator Jack Reed, announced the investigation in a joint statement
www.independent.co.uk
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
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The aspect is that Uncrewed vehicles create no means in many cases to render aid.
I think one needs to make a clear line between what is a legitimate military action and what is not.
Because there have been kill lists of personnel for years during GWOT, which was perfectly acceptable since they were not lawful combatants, and even before when dealing with the narcotics trade.
As well if anyone wants a deeper dive into some of the murkier aspects of blackside SOF, I would recommend reading:
Relentless Strike by Sean Naylor
Killing Pablo by Mark Bowden
And
Kill Bin Laden by former Delta Col Tom Greer (pen name Dalton Fury)
Upon request of the Columbian government JSOC sent operators to eliminate Pablo Escobar. Unless one believes the fairy tail that a Columbian Policeman shot him with a .38 revolver at 95m away — and the Delta guy with the tricked out M4 beside him wasn’t shooting…
The big difference being a Government request for assistance in their territory.
No one can truly say what those boats are doing. But we have struck them without warning lethally, without any authority.
There’s also customary international law- those state practices that are so prevalent and accepted that they have crystallized into accepted and enforceable law. The norm against “no quarter” and the norm against murdering the shipwrecked are both about as wel established as any law can be.
Plus there’s the U.S. military’s own law and policies on the matter.
There’s no tortured logic or twisted legal reasoning that can defend and save orders, whether carried out or only given, to kill the hors de combat survivors of a sinking.
While not perfectly analogous, it’s close enough that it’s worth noting the German U-Boat commander Eck who was executed following Nuremberg. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck - Wikipedia
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So for clarity when is it okay to extranudicially execute those suspected of a crime ?
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When your combats are in the wash?
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It appears to be split between the US and the UN for pro and con. Neither can be trusted with the truth. Detractors read like a communist who's who. So, I asked Grok.
Question - What is Trump’s motivation for attacking Venezuelan small boat shipping? Is he operating within the Law of Armed Conflict? Can he legally attack Venezuala and Madero? What groups are the most opposed to these moves? What countries have come out in defence of Venezuela and how vehemently?
Searching the web
60 results
Searching on X
15 results
Trump’s Motivation for Attacking Venezuelan Small Boat ShippingThe Trump administration's strikes on small boats off Venezuela's coast, which began in early September 2025, are officially framed as part of "Operation Southern Spear," a campaign against "narco-terrorists" and drug trafficking networks like the Tren de Aragua gang and the so-called Cartel de los Soles (allegedly led by President Nicolás Maduro). As of November 29, 2025, at least 21 strikes have killed over 80 people, mostly Venezuelans, with U.S. officials claiming the vessels were carrying drugs or cartel members bound for the U.S.
en.wikipedia.org +1
Trump has posted videos of the attacks on Truth Social, emphasizing them as a national security imperative to "save American lives" from fentanyl and other drugs, and has exaggerated their impact (e.g., claiming each boat carries enough drugs to kill 25,000–50,000 people, despite lacking evidence).
cnn.com
However, analysts and independent reports suggest the drug narrative is a pretext for broader geopolitical aims: regime change in Venezuela to oust Maduro, who has defied U.S. influence since 2013. Venezuela's role in global drug flows is marginal (mostly cocaine transiting to Europe, not fentanyl to the U.S.), and the strikes have targeted what families and governments describe as civilian fishing boats, not major trafficking operations.
npr.org +1
The U.S. military buildup— including the USS Gerald R. Ford carrier strike group, destroyers, F-35 jets, and submarines—far exceeds what's needed for maritime interdiction, pointing to pressure tactics to provoke Venezuelan military defections or justify land strikes.
theatlantic.com +1
Underlying this is U.S. interest in Venezuela's vast oil reserves (the world's largest proven), which could boost American energy dominance amid global competition with Russia and China (Venezuela's allies).
Trump has hinted at this "Americas First" doctrine, blending anti-immigration rhetoric (blaming Maduro for Venezuelan migrant "invasions") with economic leverage.
economist.com
Is He Operating Within the Law of Armed Conflict?The Trump administration claims the strikes comply with the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), part of international humanitarian law under the Geneva Conventions, which requires distinguishing between combatants and civilians, proportionality in attacks, and precautions to minimize harm.
usatoday.com
Officials argue the boats are "unlawful combatants" in a "non-international armed conflict" with cartels designated as foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs), allowing lethal force without arrest.
cfr.org +1
The Pentagon and Justice Department assert all actions are "lawful under U.S. and international law."
usatoday.com
Critics, including international law experts and U.N. officials, dispute this, calling the strikes extrajudicial killings outside armed conflict.
nytimes.com +1
Key issues:No Armed Conflict Threshold: Cartels like Tren de Aragua lack the organization and intensity for a "non-international armed conflict" under LOAC; treating them as such blurs law enforcement with warfare.
atlanticcouncil.org
Civilian Casualties: Strikes have killed alleged civilians (e.g., fishers), with no public evidence of targets' identities beforehand; one instance involved a second strike on survivors to "sink the boat."
cnn.com
Proportionality: Attacks in international waters exceed self-defense under UN Charter Article 51, lacking imminence or UN Security Council approval.
perryworldhouse.upenn.edu +1
Domestically, Democrats argue the strikes violate the War Powers Resolution (requiring congressional notification) and constitute unauthorized hostilities.
usatoday.com
The administration's opacity on evidence exacerbates concerns.
newsweek.com
Can He Legally Attack Venezuela and Maduro?Under U.S. law, the president has broad Article II powers as commander-in-chief for limited strikes, but major operations require congressional authorization via the War Powers Resolution or a new Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF).
bbc.com
The 2001 AUMF against al-Qaeda could apply if Maduro's regime is deemed an FTO (as with Cartel de los Soles on November 24, 2025), potentially justifying strikes without new approval.
cnn.com +1
Trump has authorized CIA covert lethal actions in Venezuela, which don't trigger War Powers reporting if deniable.
nytimes.com
However, the administration admits no current legal basis for land strikes inside Venezuela and is seeking a DOJ opinion to enable them without Congress.
cnn.com +1
Internationally, attacks on Venezuelan territory or Maduro would violate UN Charter Article 2(4) (prohibiting force against sovereign states) unless in self-defense (Article 51) or with UN approval—neither applies here, as no imminent threat exists.
perryworldhouse.upenn.edu +1
Experts call it aggression, potentially triggering International Criminal Court scrutiny for war crimes.
aljazeera.com
Maduro's $50 million bounty and FTO label don't authorize assassination or invasion.
cnn.com
Aspect
U.S. Legal Basis (Pro)
International/U.S. Constraints (Con)
Boat Strikes
FTO designation; Article II powers
Extrajudicial killings; no armed conflict
Land Strikes on Venezuela
Potential 2001 AUMF extension; covert ops
UN Charter violation; War Powers Resolution
Targeting Maduro
Bounty/FTO as "unlawful combatant"
Sovereign immunity; assassination ban (EO 12333)
Groups Most Opposed to These MovesOpposition spans domestic politics, international bodies, and civil society, focusing on illegality, escalation risks, and civilian deaths.Group
Key Objections
Level of Opposition
U.S. Democrats (e.g., Sens. Mark Kelly, Tim Kaine)
Unauthorized under War Powers; "extrajudicial killings"; demand legal disclosure.
usatoday.com +1
High: Resolutions to block; public videos urging military refusal.
Human Rights Orgs (e.g., UN officials, Amnesty International)
Civilian deaths; LOAC violations; calls for ICC probe.
nytimes.com
High: "Murder" labels; global campaigns.
MAGA Isolationists (e.g., Tucker Carlson, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene)
Betrays "America First"; risks endless war; "neocon" plot.
axios.com
Medium-High: Internal GOP rift; polls show 38% GOP oppose invasion.
axios.com
Venezuelan Opposition Faction (e.g., Henrique Capriles)
Undermines negotiations; risks chaos.
reuters.com
Medium: Prefers diplomacy over U.S. force.
U.S. Public (CBS/YouGov Poll)
70% oppose military action; 76% say Trump unexplained.
cbsnews.com
High: Bipartisan war fatigue.
Countries Defending Venezuela and VehemenceVenezuela's allies (Russia, China, Iran, Cuba) provide strong rhetorical and material support, while Latin American neighbors express regional solidarity against "imperialism." Opposition stems from fears of U.S. hegemony revival.Country
Defense Actions
Vehemence
Russia
"Firm support" for sovereignty; arms supplies (e.g., missiles); condemns as "excessive force."
en.wikipedia.org +1
High: Diplomatic/military backing; UNSC push.
China
Economic aid; radar tech; opposes "hegemonism."
nytimes.com
High: Strategic investments at risk.
Iran
Gunboat deployments; oil alliances.
nytimes.com
High: Shared anti-U.S. axis.
Cuba
Bodyguards for Maduro; ideological solidarity.
nytimes.com
High: "Maximum preparedness" rhetoric.
Colombia
Called strikes "new theater of war"; UNGA demand for Trump trial; CELAC condemnation.
en.wikipedia.org +1
High initially, moderated; sanctions backlash.
Brazil/Mexico
Oppose intervention; favor diplomacy.
newsweek.com
Medium: Regional stability focus.
CELAC (Latin America/Caribbean)
"Deep concern" over intervention; extraordinary meeting.
en.wikipedia.org
Medium: Collective non-intervention principle.
These defenses risk escalating proxy tensions, with Russia/China potentially aiding Venezuelan defenses
Question - What is Trump’s motivation for attacking Venezuelan small boat shipping? Is he operating within the Law of Armed Conflict? Can he legally attack Venezuala and Madero? What groups are the most opposed to these moves? What countries have come out in defence of Venezuela and how vehemently?
Searching the web
60 results
Searching on X
15 results
Trump’s Motivation for Attacking Venezuelan Small Boat ShippingThe Trump administration's strikes on small boats off Venezuela's coast, which began in early September 2025, are officially framed as part of "Operation Southern Spear," a campaign against "narco-terrorists" and drug trafficking networks like the Tren de Aragua gang and the so-called Cartel de los Soles (allegedly led by President Nicolás Maduro). As of November 29, 2025, at least 21 strikes have killed over 80 people, mostly Venezuelans, with U.S. officials claiming the vessels were carrying drugs or cartel members bound for the U.S.
en.wikipedia.org +1
Trump has posted videos of the attacks on Truth Social, emphasizing them as a national security imperative to "save American lives" from fentanyl and other drugs, and has exaggerated their impact (e.g., claiming each boat carries enough drugs to kill 25,000–50,000 people, despite lacking evidence).
cnn.com
However, analysts and independent reports suggest the drug narrative is a pretext for broader geopolitical aims: regime change in Venezuela to oust Maduro, who has defied U.S. influence since 2013. Venezuela's role in global drug flows is marginal (mostly cocaine transiting to Europe, not fentanyl to the U.S.), and the strikes have targeted what families and governments describe as civilian fishing boats, not major trafficking operations.
npr.org +1
The U.S. military buildup— including the USS Gerald R. Ford carrier strike group, destroyers, F-35 jets, and submarines—far exceeds what's needed for maritime interdiction, pointing to pressure tactics to provoke Venezuelan military defections or justify land strikes.
theatlantic.com +1
Underlying this is U.S. interest in Venezuela's vast oil reserves (the world's largest proven), which could boost American energy dominance amid global competition with Russia and China (Venezuela's allies).
Trump has hinted at this "Americas First" doctrine, blending anti-immigration rhetoric (blaming Maduro for Venezuelan migrant "invasions") with economic leverage.
economist.com
Is He Operating Within the Law of Armed Conflict?The Trump administration claims the strikes comply with the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), part of international humanitarian law under the Geneva Conventions, which requires distinguishing between combatants and civilians, proportionality in attacks, and precautions to minimize harm.
usatoday.com
Officials argue the boats are "unlawful combatants" in a "non-international armed conflict" with cartels designated as foreign terrorist organizations (FTOs), allowing lethal force without arrest.
cfr.org +1
The Pentagon and Justice Department assert all actions are "lawful under U.S. and international law."
usatoday.com
Critics, including international law experts and U.N. officials, dispute this, calling the strikes extrajudicial killings outside armed conflict.
nytimes.com +1
Key issues:No Armed Conflict Threshold: Cartels like Tren de Aragua lack the organization and intensity for a "non-international armed conflict" under LOAC; treating them as such blurs law enforcement with warfare.
atlanticcouncil.org
Civilian Casualties: Strikes have killed alleged civilians (e.g., fishers), with no public evidence of targets' identities beforehand; one instance involved a second strike on survivors to "sink the boat."
cnn.com
Proportionality: Attacks in international waters exceed self-defense under UN Charter Article 51, lacking imminence or UN Security Council approval.
perryworldhouse.upenn.edu +1
Domestically, Democrats argue the strikes violate the War Powers Resolution (requiring congressional notification) and constitute unauthorized hostilities.
usatoday.com
The administration's opacity on evidence exacerbates concerns.
newsweek.com
Can He Legally Attack Venezuela and Maduro?Under U.S. law, the president has broad Article II powers as commander-in-chief for limited strikes, but major operations require congressional authorization via the War Powers Resolution or a new Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF).
bbc.com
The 2001 AUMF against al-Qaeda could apply if Maduro's regime is deemed an FTO (as with Cartel de los Soles on November 24, 2025), potentially justifying strikes without new approval.
cnn.com +1
Trump has authorized CIA covert lethal actions in Venezuela, which don't trigger War Powers reporting if deniable.
nytimes.com
However, the administration admits no current legal basis for land strikes inside Venezuela and is seeking a DOJ opinion to enable them without Congress.
cnn.com +1
Internationally, attacks on Venezuelan territory or Maduro would violate UN Charter Article 2(4) (prohibiting force against sovereign states) unless in self-defense (Article 51) or with UN approval—neither applies here, as no imminent threat exists.
perryworldhouse.upenn.edu +1
Experts call it aggression, potentially triggering International Criminal Court scrutiny for war crimes.
aljazeera.com
Maduro's $50 million bounty and FTO label don't authorize assassination or invasion.
cnn.com
Aspect
U.S. Legal Basis (Pro)
International/U.S. Constraints (Con)
Boat Strikes
FTO designation; Article II powers
Extrajudicial killings; no armed conflict
Land Strikes on Venezuela
Potential 2001 AUMF extension; covert ops
UN Charter violation; War Powers Resolution
Targeting Maduro
Bounty/FTO as "unlawful combatant"
Sovereign immunity; assassination ban (EO 12333)
Groups Most Opposed to These MovesOpposition spans domestic politics, international bodies, and civil society, focusing on illegality, escalation risks, and civilian deaths.Group
Key Objections
Level of Opposition
U.S. Democrats (e.g., Sens. Mark Kelly, Tim Kaine)
Unauthorized under War Powers; "extrajudicial killings"; demand legal disclosure.
usatoday.com +1
High: Resolutions to block; public videos urging military refusal.
Human Rights Orgs (e.g., UN officials, Amnesty International)
Civilian deaths; LOAC violations; calls for ICC probe.
nytimes.com
High: "Murder" labels; global campaigns.
MAGA Isolationists (e.g., Tucker Carlson, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene)
Betrays "America First"; risks endless war; "neocon" plot.
axios.com
Medium-High: Internal GOP rift; polls show 38% GOP oppose invasion.
axios.com
Venezuelan Opposition Faction (e.g., Henrique Capriles)
Undermines negotiations; risks chaos.
reuters.com
Medium: Prefers diplomacy over U.S. force.
U.S. Public (CBS/YouGov Poll)
70% oppose military action; 76% say Trump unexplained.
cbsnews.com
High: Bipartisan war fatigue.
Countries Defending Venezuela and VehemenceVenezuela's allies (Russia, China, Iran, Cuba) provide strong rhetorical and material support, while Latin American neighbors express regional solidarity against "imperialism." Opposition stems from fears of U.S. hegemony revival.Country
Defense Actions
Vehemence
Russia
"Firm support" for sovereignty; arms supplies (e.g., missiles); condemns as "excessive force."
en.wikipedia.org +1
High: Diplomatic/military backing; UNSC push.
China
Economic aid; radar tech; opposes "hegemonism."
nytimes.com
High: Strategic investments at risk.
Iran
Gunboat deployments; oil alliances.
nytimes.com
High: Shared anti-U.S. axis.
Cuba
Bodyguards for Maduro; ideological solidarity.
nytimes.com
High: "Maximum preparedness" rhetoric.
Colombia
Called strikes "new theater of war"; UNGA demand for Trump trial; CELAC condemnation.
en.wikipedia.org +1
High initially, moderated; sanctions backlash.
Brazil/Mexico
Oppose intervention; favor diplomacy.
newsweek.com
Medium: Regional stability focus.
CELAC (Latin America/Caribbean)
"Deep concern" over intervention; extraordinary meeting.
en.wikipedia.org
Medium: Collective non-intervention principle.
These defenses risk escalating proxy tensions, with Russia/China potentially aiding Venezuelan defenses
OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
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To continue to sew disarray and confusion. To ensure that Congress remains paralyzed. But mostly:
It was a phenomenal typo.
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Im glad I could climb to new heights of illiteracy. Truly I'm doing the infantry proud.
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My guess: mostly the oil. Partly to stop shadow fleet exports to China; partly to hand over to some US producers.
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Halifax Tar
Army.ca Legend
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I'm not a lawyer, judge or politician. But IMHO when someone is engaged in drug running and cartel activities that's an occasion when I don't care about them being put down immediately.
It's all good, I would have understood what you meant.
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Me too, drug traffickers are scum and we should be giving them the exact same treatment we give pirates.
Unrestricted naval campaign, raids on their strongholds, target their leadership. Unleash the entire military complex on them... I'm good with it all. It's actually a mission that's worth doing.
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Fixture
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You mean board and arrest them, then asked the aggrieved country if they want to prosecute, and if not, seize any weapons (and I guess drugs too in this case) they may have, then release them and send them back home on their merry way?
