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Do we need Cadets? Should they be military/uniformed? (split from Trump administration 2024-2028)

yeah they do. The cadet programme introduces young people to the military, to the application of discipline (possibly for the first time) and hopefully to a potential career. They are also taught teamwork and the value of community. Interaction between leaders and cadets is patterned after the military: military means officers. When you salute, you salute the uniform, not the person. When you encounter a colonel on the street and he is in civvies you do not salute. So to my mind the rank goes hand in hand with the leadership function. Wendell Fertig is the best case I can think of for rank: a lieutenant colonel who promoted himself to general in order to have the face needed to command the Filipinos.

And who cares how many cadets become regular forces. Consider it an investment in Canada's future. Years back I was a civilian instructor in Hamilton whilst I was posted there. I saw the difference.
Well it's either they are required to have the same qualifications as every other officer in the CAF, or if that is not needed, then they don't need to be commissioned officers. The majority of the CAF are not commissioned officers. They are still subject to the CSD and many of them can still function in a leadership position without a commission.

I'm not just not just concerned about the regular force, but the CAF as the whole. The Cadet Program is a recruiting tool. If it is not working, then why do we have it?
 
Don't confuse your wants with institutional needs.
Well, I'm suggesting the CIC would function better and their relationship with the rest of the CAF would be better if the majority of them were not commissioned officers. There are more than a few people who have similar opinions.
 
The Cadet Program is a recruiting tool.
Is it? Where is that codified as its raison d'être? You are presenting your wants as facts.
Its purpose is to develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and leadership, promote physical fitness, and stimulate an interest in the sea, land, and air activities of the Canadian Armed Forces. It builds interest (as last of three goals); it does not recruit.
 
I'm suggesting the CIC would function better and their relationship with the rest of the CAF would be better if the majority of them were not commissioned officers.
Aside from some Reg F & PRes members seemingly feeling threatened by their existence, I don't see a problem in the relationship between the CIC & remainder of the CAF. Are you fixing a problem that doesn't exist?

There are more than a few people who have similar opinions.
"Lots of people agree with me" is not a persuasive argument. Lots of people can be wrong.
 
Is it? Where is that codified as its raison d'être? You are presenting your wants as needs.
Its purpose is to develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and leadership, promote physical fitness, and stimulate an interest in the sea, land, and air activities of the Canadian Armed Forces. It builds interest (as last of three goals); it does not recruit.
No, that is the CAf's institutional need. Why should the CAF be funding a program unless it is benefiting the CAF with recruits. I'm not going to argue that there aren't civic and professional benefits for the cadets, because there are, but the end of the day is is not within the mission of the CAF to provide that to the civilian population without it fulfilling some type of mission essential task.

We went through a whole period where we couldn't do change of command parades similar items because there wasn't an operational or training requirement. There needs to be an actual military requirement for them if they are going to exiat under the CAF/DND umbrella.
 
So, your actual position has been that you want to disband the cadet program?
No, not at all. I am a strong supporter of the Cadet program (which I cannot say for a lot of the people I work with). I think that the program could benefit from changes, the same way the CAF is changing. I am simply asking is how effective is the Cadet program in it's current state to the operational needs of the CAF. An easy metric for this would be some type of figure of enrollment of former cadets.

I agree that there are many benefits for those who take part in the Cadet program that definitely does benefit society. But as it exists now, the Cadet program exists under the DND umbrella, which means it must be beneficial to the CAF/DND, it's can't exist for the sake of existing.

I would like to see cadets have more interaction with the CAF, normally starting with their local reserve unit. More opportunities to attend regimental exercises, which does sometimes. It would also be good to see the cadets come out with additional qualifications that could actually transfer over to the CAF while still being useful the the cadets in a civilian setting.
 
Many CIC/COATS members are ex-P Res/Reg F CAF members. They stayed in due to love of the service. Taking away their entitlement to a CAF uniform and accoutrements would likely have a devastating effect on recruiting and retention. I used to work in DGRC and found their D&D was not all that bad on the whole. Hegseth is just cherry picking to make himself feel better.
I have met officers in the CAF who are only officers because they got their commissioning scroll through being a CIC officer and couldn’t have been in that position otherwise.

To me they shouldn’t be commissioned, there is no need. Being a commissioned means the ability to command troops, seeing as they command children there is no actual need for the commissioning scroll.
 
I think I should be clear that my concerns with the CIC are based on the institution, not the vast majority of the people who make the Cadet program happen.

Obviously with any organization, there are those outliers. I have met a lot of very good CIC officers, however, I have also met a few bad ones. And if it wasn't for their commissioning scroll, I would express to them (in a constructive matter) that I felt they were being unprofessional or weren't wearing the uniform properly or whatever the case may be, the same way I would for anyone else.
 
No, not at all. I am a strong supporter of the Cadet program (which I cannot say for a lot of the people I work with). I think that the program could benefit from changes, the same way the CAF is changing. I am simply asking is how effective is the Cadet program in it's current state to the operational needs of the CAF. An easy metric for this would be some type of figure of enrollment of former cadets.

I agree that there are many benefits for those who take part in the Cadet program that definitely does benefit society. But as it exists now, the Cadet program exists under the DND umbrella, which means it must be beneficial to the CAF/DND, it's can't exist for the sake of existing.

I would like to see cadets have more interaction with the CAF, normally starting with their local reserve unit. More opportunities to attend regimental exercises, which does sometimes. It would also be good to see the cadets come out with additional qualifications that could actually transfer over to the CAF while still being useful the the cadets in a civilian setting.
We used to be able to take Cadets out with us on live fire artillery exercises, they worked hard to impress us and many joined up. Thanks to our risk adverse Civil and Military leadership, that opportunity has seemed to gone by the wayside. The UK is much more forthright in that Cadets is a military arm and army cadets learn section tactics including attacks using blanks and pyrotechnics.
 
I think a lot of previous stigma is gone. People dont look at former reservists with the disdain they used to either. Culture shifts have had positive effects.
You may be right. I'm not sure about the cadets, but the relationship between the Reg Force and Reserves is definitely much better than when I joined many moons ago. It's also becoming a common thing that we will see former Reg Force coming to the Reserves instead of just releasing more often than we used to, or at least that's what I have observed.
 
If cadet instructors do not require a commission to do their job isn't keeping it a matter of "well we've always done it this way so lets not change"?
 
Being a commissioned means the ability to command troops,
Leading troops is the primary reason the CAF has doctors, lawyers, padres, and pilots.

I am simply asking is how effective is the Cadet program in it's current state to the operational needs of the CAF.
Its effectiveness should be measured against its mandate. It has no mandate related to operational needs of the CAF.

the Cadet program exists under the DND umbrella, which means it must be beneficial to the CAF/DND, it's can't exist for the sake of existing.
It exists to develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and leadership, promote physical fitness, and stimulate an interest in the sea, land, and air activities of the Canadian Armed Forces. It exists in the department because our civil masters mandate and fund it in the department.

But you want benefits to the CAF? If the organization is successful in the objective to stimulate an interest in the CAF then some cadets will join after. More importantly, those who do not join go off into society as voters with more favourable and informed opinions of the CAF.

And we invest in infrastructure to support cadets but then use that infrastructure to support Reg F & PRes training in other seasons. I have used Cadet infrastructure (which would not have existed in absence of the program) for training in Vernon and Gagetown.

If the CAF wants to stomp its feet and fuss about the program in absence of more immediate benefits, then the program will just be pulled away, demilitarized, and handed to another department which will not promote a positive interest in the CAF. The related funding will leave with the mandate, and likely the real property too.

I would like to see cadets have more interaction with the CAF, normally starting with their local reserve unit. More opportunities to attend regimental exercises, which does sometimes. It would also be good to see the cadets come out with additional qualifications that could actually transfer over to the CAF while still being useful the the cadets in a civilian setting.
used to be able to take Cadets out with us on live fire artillery exercises, they worked hard to impress us and many joined up. Thanks to our risk adverse Civil and Military leadership, that opportunity has seemed to gone by the wayside.
More interaction between cadets and affiliated units (which are not always PRes) is possible in the way that all sorts of units civilian familiarity outreach events. But if we want to train someone as a soldier and take them on exercises like a soldier, then we should ensure they are medically and physically fit as a soldier, that they are security vetted like a soldier, that they have compensation & benefits like a soldier, and that they have at least as much accident protection as a Class A reservist. It’s not about being risk averse; it os protecting the people you bring into the field.

If cadet instructors do not require a commission to do their job isn't keeping it a matter of "well we've always done it this way so lets not change"?
If there were a coherent argument to remove commissions and the the opposing argument was that we have always done it that way, then sure. But it’s just ad hominem when you are tossing around the accusation despite nobody having raised the argument in opposition to the proposal.
 
If there were a coherent argument to remove commissions and the the opposing argument was that we have always done it that way, then sure. But it’s just ad hominem when you are tossing around the accusation despite nobody having raised the argument in opposition to the proposal.
Isn't not requiring something a legitimate argument for its removal? Or at the very least consideratiin for it?

Regular and reserve force NCOs who work with cadets don't require a commission, nor do civilian instructors. Unless I'm mistaken the cadet basic officer training course is 2 weeks.
 
Isn't not requiring something a legitimate argument for its removal? Or at the very least consideratiin for it?

Regular and reserve force NCOs who work with cadets don't require a commission, nor do civilian instructors. Unless I'm mistaken the cadet basic officer training course is 2 weeks.
So the proposal is to abolish commissioning scrolls for all the CAF? Because NCOs & civilians working anywhere in the department also do so without commissions, and that’s the argument?
 
So the proposal is to abolish commissioning scrolls for all the CAF? Because NCOs & civilians working anywhere in the department also do so without commissions, and that’s the argument?
Do CIC officers and regular/reserve officers do the same job?

If so, and CIC need the commission to do tbeir job as CIC, then that's an argument for keeping it.
 
No, that is the CAf's institutional need. Why should the CAF be funding a program unless it is benefiting the CAF with recruits. I'm not going to argue that there aren't civic and professional benefits for the cadets, because there are, but the end of the day is is not within the mission of the CAF to provide that to the civilian population without it fulfilling some type of mission essential task.

We went through a whole period where we couldn't do change of command parades similar items because there wasn't an operational or training requirement. There needs to be an actual military requirement for them if they are going to exiat under the CAF/DND umbrella.
In truth it is not the CAF that is funding the cadet programme: it is the Canadian government which at some point in time tasked the CAF to provide a cadet programme in each of the three disciplines and provided the funding to the CAF to make it happen. Here are the goals:
The Canadian Cadet Program aims to:

  • Develop attributes of good citizenship and leadership in youth.
  • Promote physical fitness.
  • Stimulate interest in the sea, land, and air activities of the Canadian Forces.
The programme originated in the local drill organisations and gradually developed into a youth programme at about the same time as Boy Scouts was getting off the ground in England. At any rate, it works. It isn't perfect but it works.
 
Do CIC officers and regular/reserve officers do the same job?
Is the requirement for a commision that everyone do the same job? Because Regular and Reserve officers don't do the same job, and each occupation within a component does a different job. No two MOSID do the same job.
 
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