Canada to Spend $5.0Bil on AEW Aircraft (Saab Globaleye)

[childs56]

When we have to run a ramp ceremony for a pilot killed in combat because we didnt give them a fighter thats generationally leaps and bounds ahead of a Rafale or Gripen, do you think the family is going to be OK that we bought subpar gear due to public sentiment? 99% of those "elbows up" folks aren't putting a uniform on and heading into harms way. I dont see anyone suggesting we cancel the AEGIS system for the RCDs, either.

We are duty bound to set requirements for our gear to meet the mission and anticipated missions given to us by the Government of Canada. If that happens to be American, cool. We should be using those purchases as economic leverage, not a giant FU to someone who's gone in 2 years.

AEGIS system works and works well and does what it says it will do. F35 still has lots of growing pains before it might reach full capability, even that is a question that many are asking as they seek the 6 and 7 gen systems.

 

[Czech_pivo]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/global-eye-saab-rcaf-surveillance-9.7336138

Ottawa chose the GlobalEye without knowing if it actually met the RCAF's requirements.

Wonder if any of these unknown sources ends up being the unknown RCAF individual who has been tipping off the media on a number of F35 related stories. If not that person, also wondering if these unnamed sources are x-RCAF members.

Yes I'm speculating but its worth wondering in this case and in the previous other cases.

 

[PuckChaser]

AEGIS system works and works well and does what it says it will do. F35 still has lots of growing pains before it might reach full capability, even that is a question that many are asking as they seek the 6 and 7 gen systems.

I dont want to derail this further but if by growing pains you mean its successfully entered heavily defend airspace in Iran for months without a combat loss, then yes, growing pains.

 

[ytz]

The whole article is worrying, but specific parts of it have the potential to set a very bad precedent for Canadian procurement.



Picking a winner to a competition where not even the winner was made aware of its technical and operational needs until weeks after the award is very difficult to accept. Freezing everybody else out of even knowing the requirements also comes off as questionable.

I think we can all agree that Canadian procurement needs to move faster however, this is far too fast and risks us getting into some increasingly uncomfortable positions by procuring potentially unsuitable equipment or equipment that isn't properly investigated by Government before adoption. Just like how the CAF needs to respect the needs of Govt, Govt needs to respect the needs of the CAF.

Expect more of this. There's more directed buys coming. And now having DIA makes this easier. Some will be good ideas. Some will suck. The days of defaulting to the US are over. And the government is literally working on ways to help industry to achieve the security levels that foreign competitors do, IOT enable less work leaving Canada.

I'd be curious to see these articles, because there has been absolutely nothing on my radar that has supported the French or British/Germans talking about their 4th gen aircraft with Canada. This fundamentally comes back to Canadian jobs, which neither of the aforementioned platforms will be able to meaningfully offer given their commitments to production and assembly lines elsewhere. Unlike Saab, who's increasingly desperate to get a deal with anybody and will agree to effectively anything to secure said deal. The Rafale and Typhoon both removed themselves from the CF-18 replacement program, Gripen may have lost but it did come in second and passed the finish line as "acceptable". It's hard to square the circle of a sole source procurement like they are looking at if they lack the justification already made by the prior program.

Carney admitted talking to Macron and Starmer about the Rafale and Typhoon respectively, last year. I know Saab has been pushing hard. But the context was different in the past. We might be talking about deals well beyond just assembly jobs.

I go back to the fact that we have no idea what happens if we decide to buy another jet. Would the Trump Administration decide to end NORAD, boot us from Five Eyes, cancel ITAR permits and waivers? Etc

This is why I have repeatedly said the only practical path is not to annnounce shit. Just keep buying lots every year till end 2028 or 2029. In the meantime, negotiate a proper partnership and industrial participation in GCAP. Once Trump is out, we can decide whether to buy 88 Panthers or cut short based on GCAP ramping. Of course, this is a practical strategy. It doesn't fulfill the rage baiting and revenge that a lot of voters want.

When we have to run a ramp ceremony for a pilot killed in combat because we didnt give them a fighter thats generationally leaps and bounds ahead of a Rafale or Gripen, do you think the family is going to be OK that we bought subpar gear due to public sentiment? 99% of those "elbows up" folks aren't putting a uniform on and heading into harms way.

Did the public care when the EH-101 was cancelled? What about the performance shortfalls of the Griffon in Afghanistan? Or the limitations of the Kingfisher?

We are duty bound to set requirements for our gear to meet the mission and anticipated missions given to us by the Government of Canada. If that happens to be American, cool. We should be using those purchases as economic leverage, not a giant FU to someone who's gone in 2 years.

No. We advise the government on our requirements. They decide how to prioritize those against all the other priorities they have. And the mood has absolutely changed at Carling. You're either getting onboard with the government's priorities or you can go to the back of the line. Most PDs and PMs are going to pick 70% over 0%.

 

[ytz]

AEGIS system works and works well and does what it says it will do. F35 still has lots of growing pains before it might reach full capability, even that is a question that many are asking as they seek the 6 and 7 gen systems.

"growing pains"

"many are asking"

What is this generic criticism?

Not only is it not accurate, it's pretty clear you don't understand how agile (post 2018) and spiral (Block 1-3F) development work. Boy are you going to be disappointed when you see how 6th gen systems rollout with spiral and agile.

 

[KevinB]

Expect more of this. There's more directed buys coming. And now having DIA makes this easier. Some will be good ideas. Some will suck.

I am a big of directed buys - providing it makes sense.
What should never happen is buying something solely to buy it.
I am an E-7 fan, simply as I think it is a better platform for Canada’s size and location.

That said, with NATO going GlobalEye, the platform isn’t going to be a sniveling orphan, so Bombardier and Saab will be incentivized to work on the platform for users.

I wish Bom had a larger platform, as I think the GE may be quickly taxed with the power and cooling requirements that will be coming in the next few years.

The days of defaulting to the US are over. And the government is literally working on ways to help industry to achieve the security levels that foreign competitors do, IOT enable less work leaving Canada.

Honestly other than Aircraft, the CAF has rarely defaulted to the US.
The Army has legitimately gone out of its way buying worse items to avoid America - and that has been going on for decades.

Carney admitted talking to Macron and Starmer about the Rafale and Typhoon respectively, last year. I know Saab has been pushing hard. But the context was different in the past. We might be talking about deals well beyond just assembly jobs.

That is smart policy -- one never wants a two horse race - especially when one of them could be radioactive.
Even if PM Carney had no intent on making it a 3 or 4 horse race, the appearance of one, or the potential for one makes the other horses more active.

I go back to the fact that we have no idea what happens if we decide to buy another jet. Would the Trump Administration decide to end NORAD, boot us from Five Eyes, cancel ITAR permits and waivers? Etc

Even some tied in MAGA Lobbyists have said they don’t have a clue - which is worrisome, and telling.

This is why I have repeatedly said the only practical path is not to annnounce shit. Just keep buying lots every year till end 2028 or 2029. In the meantime, negotiate a proper partnership and industrial participation in GCAP. Once Trump is out, we can decide whether to buy 88 Panthers or cut short based on GCAP ramping. Of course, this is a practical strategy.

Indeed, I suspect you will get a little bit of clarity in the midterms.
Frankly even as a F-35 fan, I think Canada should be jumping into GCAP, if for nothing more than the option to see what provides Canada with the best bang for it's buck, over the next 70 years or so.

It doesn't fulfill the rage baiting and revenge that a lot of voters want.

I don’t really get the rage bait and revenge plots.
Tariffs and bad blood hurt both sides -

Did the public care when the EH-101 was cancelled?

Maybe <5%
I can’t do the Jean Cretien No Cadillac ‘Elicopter schtick well, but he made it an election issue - and most Canadians fell for it - and no one took a stand for it.

What about the performance shortfalls of the Griffon in Afghanistan?

The Griffon is an example of bad choices for political reasons.
It had performance shortfalls the day it rolled out of Mirabel

Or the limitations of the Kingfisher?

That seems to be a love it or hate it affair -- there have been some folks who use it on here singing it’s praises - while others want to burn it.

No. We advise the government on our requirements. They decide how to prioritize those against all the other priorities they have. And the mood has absolutely changed at Carling. You're either getting onboard with the government's priorities or you can go to the back of the line. Most PDs and PMs are going to pick 70% over 0%.

Honestly it should be fairly easy for a lot of the larger programs to incorporate Made in Canada, pretty much all the Global Defense Firms understand that there needs to be some domestic “hook” having that as a program KPP isn’t that hard - and for those who won’t play ball - others will be more than happy to get a safe secondary production and support facility.

 

[childs56]

I dont want to derail this further but if by growing pains you mean its successfully entered heavily defend airspace in Iran for months without a combat loss, then yes, growing pains.

Various other aircraft have also been in the airspace, unconfirmed reports of at least one F35 being damaged by Iranian air defence. 1 F15 and 1 A10 were shot down and confirmed.

 

[childs56]

"growing pains"

"many are asking"

What is this generic criticism?

Not only is it not accurate, it's pretty clear you don't understand how agile (post 2018) and spiral (Block 1-3F) development work. Boy are you going to be disappointed when you see how 6th gen systems rollout with spiral and agile.

How about not at its promised capability that Canada originally wanted and was sold on. It does not make it a bad platform, but why buy it when it does not do what it promised to do at this time. Even Our Allies who have bought the platform are disappointed it does not have the capability they were promised. (It would be like buying a new truck that was suppose to be a diesel for hot shot towing a 35 foot flat deck hauling max load, without the 14 inch nav screen. Then the dealer delivering you the gas engine 4 speed version with the 4 inch lcd screen and no maps. It works well but you have to make lots of adaptations to use it as fully intended.
It does not have the sensor fusion that was promised. It does not have the radar that was promised, it does not have the flight serviceability that was promised. Hence why Israel went their own way with the Platform and installed some of their own systems as part of the deal.

You love the F35 and I get that. I would like to see us get a F35 as promised and then add all the future wingman tech that is coming down the line. But I don't see the F35 getting to that point as originally thought.
More then a few countries want to partner with us for the next gen development for a number of reasons. Part of that is our tech sector is pretty robust.

I have yet to see where Canada needs a F35 fighter other then to attract Pilots and keep the US happy with NORAD. No matter what we do right now DT will not be happy with us.
We need to be part of the future fighter programs and I think we need to reach out to different countries and be as partners not as servants.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Germany has been very quiet over the last 2 months since its 6th gen fighter programme collapsed with France. I know that UK/Italy/Japan have mentioned Germany, but articles have been quiet regarding this.

India is moving towards France on the 6th gen and France is pushing hard to bring Saab into its fold on the 6th gen side.

One point that we can't lose sight of is that the UK, Italy and Japan will all want their 6th gen fighter to be able to operate off an aircraft carrier. Unknown if that will be or won't be an issue concerning our needs/requirements. It speculation that they would be 2 types of fighter, one carrier based and one not.

France Enters Race Against Germany for Sweden's Sixth-Gen Fighter Partnership, Offering Safran Engines to Replace American Dependence, With Direct Impact on Ukraine's Future Fleet | Defense Express

Élysée official says Paris wants lighter aircraft like Stockholm as Saab's sovereign F-series project must be abandoned before any partnership can begin

en.defence-ua.com

 

[ytz]

One point that we can't lose sight of is that the UK, Italy and Japan will all want their 6th gen fighter to be able to operate off an aircraft carrier.

This is wrong. This was part of the dispute.

They want a large land based fighter. It's France that wants a smaller naval fighter.

 

[Czech_pivo]

This is wrong. This was part of the dispute.

They want a large land based fighter. It's France that wants a smaller naval fighter.

Are you saying that GCAP won't be developing a fighter that will fly from the 3 founding members aircraft carriers? Its their sole intent to use the F35 on a go forward basis 20+yrs in the future?

 

[ytz]

How about not at its promised capability that Canada originally wanted and was sold on. It does not make it a bad platform, but why buy it when it does not do what it promised to do at this time. Even Our Allies who have bought the platform are disappointed it does not have the capability they were promised. (It would be like buying a new truck that was suppose to be a diesel for hot shot towing a 35 foot flat deck hauling max load, without the 14 inch nav screen. Then the dealer delivering you the gas engine 4 speed version with the 4 inch lcd screen and no maps. It works well but you have to make lots of adaptations to use it as fully intended.
It does not have the sensor fusion that was promised. It does not have the radar that was promised, it does not have the flight serviceability that was promised. Hence why Israel went their own way with the Platform and installed some of their own systems as part of the deal.

You love the F35 and I get that. I would like to see us get a F35 as promised and then add all the future wingman tech that is coming down the line. But I don't see the F35 getting to that point as originally thought.
More then a few countries want to partner with us for the next gen development for a number of reasons. Part of that is our tech sector is pretty robust.

I have yet to see where Canada needs a F35 fighter other then to attract Pilots and keep the US happy with NORAD. No matter what we do right now DT will not be happy with us.
We need to be part of the future fighter programs and I think we need to reach out to different countries and be as partners not as servants.

That's a lot of words to say that you don't understand modern technological development methodologies and how they apply to military tech and combat aircraft.

I'm not going into the rest of it. It's emotional nonsense. Maybe next up you'll explain why carriers should use steam catapults again.

 

[ytz]

Are you saying that GCAP won't be developing a fighter that will fly from the 3 founding members aircraft carriers? Its their sole intent to use the F35 on a go forward basis 20+yrs in the future?

Correct.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Correct.

We'll see what happens down the road.

This decision 'hamstrings' them to the F35 and renders their aircraft carriers independence/effectiveness to the whims of the US for decades into the future. I would not call that prudent statecraft by the 3 of them.

 

[Rainbow1910]

One point that we can't lose sight of is that the UK, Italy and Japan will all want their 6th gen fighter to be able to operate off an aircraft carrier.

This is patently false, none of these nations are looking for GCAP to be able to operate off an aircraft carrier. GCAP is a land based aircraft and there are not attempts to try and turn it into a carrier based aircraft. The UK, Italy and Japan all operate carriers that are entirely unsuitable for anything GCAP will produce given the large size of said aircraft and the size/launching mechanisms of all three of their carriers.

France is the only nation realistically pursuing a carrier based fighter in Europe, this is part of what fractured their agreement with Germany, who did not agree with many of the compromises required to get a carrier capable aircraft.

 

[dapaterson]

The F35 is all about compromises, mostly for the USMC.

Eliminate the VTOL version and you have a cheaper and more reliable aircraft.

The USN needs to rein in their infantry.

 

[ytz]

The F35 is all about compromises, mostly for the USMC.

Eliminate the VTOL version and you have a cheaper and more reliable aircraft.

The USN needs to rein in their infantry.

The B version is a huge gift to allies. So many countries are now able to have 5th Gen carrier aviation because of it.

 

[childs56]

That's a lot of words to say that you don't understand modern technological development methodologies and how they apply to military tech and combat aircraft.

I'm not going into the rest of it. It's emotional nonsense. Maybe next up you'll explain why carriers should use steam catapults again.

How reliable are the electrical catapult?
How reliable are they verses steam ones?
What's the average time to repair each system on average when they have a failure?

Before installing the "save the plane" electric catapult hopefully they installed in a non operational setting and worked the major and minor defects.

Honestly I could really care less as we dont have an aircraft carrier to need either system. But sometimes putting a new system into place before it is ready is causing further issues down the road for all invovled.

 

[suffolkowner]

Germany has been very quiet over the last 2 months since its 6th gen fighter programme collapsed with France. I know that UK/Italy/Japan have mentioned Germany, but articles have been quiet regarding this.

India is moving towards France on the 6th gen and France is pushing hard to bring Saab into its fold on the 6th gen side.

One point that we can't lose sight of is that the UK, Italy and Japan will all want their 6th gen fighter to be able to operate off an aircraft carrier. Unknown if that will be or won't be an issue concerning our needs/requirements. It speculation that they would be 2 types of fighter, one carrier based and one not.

France Enters Race Against Germany for Sweden's Sixth-Gen Fighter Partnership, Offering Safran Engines to Replace American Dependence, With Direct Impact on Ukraine's Future Fleet | Defense Express

Élysée official says Paris wants lighter aircraft like Stockholm as Saab's sovereign F-series project must be abandoned before any partnership can begin

en.defence-ua.com

some representatives of the size of the GCAP

View attachment 102075


View attachment 102074

GCAP is supposed to be pretty big.

 

[KevinB]

GCAP is supposed to be pretty big.

Other than hints, there isn’t anything OS out based in fact.

One can do a quick search and see trolling memes of what dozen of different people with some fairly incompetent graphics abilities and incomplete knowledge can spit out into the wild.

Nothing beyond vague renderings have been put out officially.

I counted 11 different models of GCAP and 7 of the F-47, plus folks adding vaporware Russian and Chinese gen 6 ‘platforms’ all in one quick page - I was wondering if was a game forum,
But alas no it’s being regurgitated as fact from Facebook, Instagram and beyond.


Then again this is the same universe where someone tried to portray an F-35 being shot down in Iran and managed to scale it so it was larger than the USS Ford CVN