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Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

Kirkhill said:
Very fair question.

It may be the coward in me. I am not a fan of the close fight. I figure that evens up the odds too much and brings it down to my muscle versus his.

Personally I would prefer to stand well out of his range while killing as many of his buddies as possible and him.

....

Thses two developments have been in the works for 100 years and today they have reached a stage that they have rendered the rifle battle irrelevant. Rifles are still critical for crowd control but militarily they are only useful as personal defence weapons.
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The Americans have bombed the hell out of Iran. How much Iranian territory have they taken? Has the bombing compelled Iran to give in to US demands?

I'm very much in favour of autonomous systems and cheaper precision fires, but ultimately you need boots on the ground (and their irrelevant rifles) to take and hold territory in order to actually decide a conflict. Ukraine/Russia is case and point. They have both become quite effective at using ranged weapons at all scales to strike each other but the front lines have barely moved and no military resolution to the conflict is in sight.

You may not be a fan of the close fight, but wars are not won by just slinging arrows at each other.
 
GR66 said:
The Americans have bombed the hell out of Iran. How much Iranian territory have they taken? Has the bombing compelled Iran to give in to US demands?

I'm very much in favour of autonomous systems and cheaper precision fires, but ultimately you need boots on the ground (and their irrelevant rifles) to take and hold territory in order to actually decide a conflict. Ukraine/Russia is case and point. They have both become quite effective at using ranged weapons at all scales to strike each other but the front lines have barely moved and no military resolution to the conflict is in sight.

You may not be a fan of the close fight, but wars are not won by just slinging arrows at each other.
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I will continue slinging arrows for as long as there are targets that will oppose the insertion of close combat forces.

I do not say that there is no need for the rifleman with a personal defence weapon. I agree that they are the ultimate expression of control over a population.

But launching close combat troops into an opposed environment when it isn't necessary borders on the criminal.

And do you really want to insert good troops into a hostile population?

The difference between inserting a bomb or a brigade is the length of time the effect endures. But both effects are time limited. The effect of the brigade only lasts as long as it is sustained in place. And every brigade in history has eventually returned home.
 
Kirkhill said:
And every brigade in history has eventually returned home.
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Well, no. There are hundreds of conquests that endure to this day. There are many recent conquests that ended in a stable, defeated enemy that endures as an ally. The issue is political intent and the manner in which the peace is maintained. That's not simple 100 word post but a six credit hour graduate course.

Kirkhill said:
But launching close combat troops into an opposed environment when it isn't necessary borders on the criminal.
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"When it isn't necessary" is the modifier that makes the statement true but your thesis goes to hell in a handbasket "when it is necessary." Faint hearts never . . . (fill in with your favourite saying) is as true today as when McClellan refused to commit the Union army because it might get damaged in a fight. Try as we might, war will never be antiseptic.

🍻
 
daftandbarmy said:
I knda though that was the whole point ;)
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Well, what are you trading those lives to secure?

Goods or people?

And do the people want to be secured, liberated?

Some fights are worth having. Agreed.

But how much can be achieved without having to expend our kids?
 
Kirkhill said:
But how much can be achieved without having to expend our kids?
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Ask America how the Iran "special military operation" is going...

If we aren't willing to commit lives, we shouldn't be there in the first place. Drones, missiles, bombers, etc., create the illusion of "clean" wars. No war is clean, and no war worth fight is going to be "solved" by bombing/drones. I thought we had learned that back in the 1940's with the strategic bombing campaigns, but apparently, just like communism, we haven't had "real" bombing superiority...
 
Furniture said:
Ask America how the Iran "special military operation" is going...

If we aren't willing to commit lives, we shouldn't be there in the first place. Drones, missiles, bombers, etc., create the illusion of "clean" wars. No war is clean, and no war worth fight is going to be "solved" by bombing/drones. I thought we had learned that back in the 1940's with the strategic bombing campaigns, but apparently, just like communism, we haven't had "real" bombing superiority...
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Guilio Douhet still infects military thinking, even after a century of failure…
 
Furniture said:
Ask America how the Iran "special military operation" is going...

If we aren't willing to commit lives, we shouldn't be there in the first place. Drones, missiles, bombers, etc., create the illusion of "clean" wars. No war is clean, and no war worth fight is going to be "solved" by bombing/drones. I thought we had learned that back in the 1940's with the strategic bombing campaigns, but apparently, just like communism, we haven't had "real" bombing superiority...
Click to expand...

"We shouldn't be there."

Why are we anywhere but here?
Being someplace else is a big ask that the government has to justify.

The calculus is different if it is sending people that are contracted to do the job instead of people that are conscripted.

....

"They are here!"

That is a different situation. And it is one of keeping unwanted guests at bay.

I am happy to ring my lager with Claymores so that the rest of us can get a good night's sleep.

Or carry on with our daily lives.

With guns under our pillows.
 
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