A Questionable Point to Raise on Memorial Day

[Old Sweat]

I found this item (link below) on facebook from the NY Times to be, at best, in questionable taste to raise on Memorial Day. It questions the retention of Confederate leaders' names for US military posts such as Fort Lee, Fort Bragg and Fort Benning, to name a few. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.html?ref=global&_r=1&

edit to add: It was not published on Memorial DAy, but close enough to the actual date, to make the shoe wereable.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting question, but not one to raise on/around Memorial Day, for sure.

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

Well, it isn't like they have anything named Camp Bedford Forrest  (anymore ... apparently there was a Camp Forrest in WWII).

Considering that Regimental Colors {sic} of some regiments from the southern states carry CSA Campaign Streamers I think it will be a long time before there is any movement on the re-naming of Installation names.

 

[jeffb]

Most of the CSA Corps and Division generals were West Point grads who served for a long period before the Civil War. It's not as if these guys just appeared out of nowhere when the South succeeded. I see no problem remembering the military achievements of leaders who were born, fought and died as Americans. The Civil War is far enough in the past that I think the North has forgiven the South.

 

[Kirkhill]

Precedents for honouring your enemies? 

How about adopting their regiments whole and entire after various civil wars?  Half of the British Army was raised to fight the other half and then had their contracts bought out by the replacement King or Lord Protector.

Or how about outfits like deMeurons that were raised from the Franco-Swiss border to fight for the French, went to work for the French version of the East India Company, had their contract bought out by the British East India Company, went on to fight for the Brits in Canada against the Yanks and ended up protecting the Red River Settlers of the HBC from the Northwest Company?

Life is way too complicated for simple solutions - unless you're a New York Times journalist with empty space to fill.

 

[cupper]

I remember a similar issue being raised back home (in Canada) over the use of the name Cornwallis, which caused some consternation for First Nations people.

The Civil War is far enough in the past that I think the North has forgiven the South.

They are not as forgiving, and they don't easily forget, here south of the Mason-Dixon Line. ;D

 

[Old Sweat]

I referred this to an American friend (a retired Colonel) who replied that army posts are named for distinguished residents/natives of the state in which the installation is located. He went on to say it might be a legitimate subject for discussion, but not around Memorial Day.

Canadian practice, of course, is to follow the British practice and name bases/camps/stations after the locality, hence Valcartier, Petawawa, Winnipeg, etc. There have been a few exceptions such as Cornwallis, Borden, Wolseley Barracks, Shilo (unclear) and Fort Frontenac, for example. Meanwhile the Navy steered its own course. There has been some recognition of individuals being naming parts of bases such as unit lines to recognize distinguished Canadians such as Simonds, Brownfield, Currie, Griesbach or battles - Vimy and Kapyong for example. In the bad old days the 4 CIBG unit camps in Germany were named for forts of historical significance, thus Forts Henry, York, Prince of Wales, Victoria, Beausejour, etc.

Back to the proposal, it is one of those things like Senate reform here that is likely to fall into the dynamic inertia category.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I remember a similar issue being raised back home (in Canada) over the use of the name Cornwallis, which caused some consternation for First Nations people.

They are not as forgiving, and they don't easily forget, here south of the Mason-Dixon Line. ;D

Still ongoing with the FN folks around here.  Hardly a day seems to go by without some comment on the radio on the subject.  If it were up to them, he would be erased from the history books.  He is to them, the devil incarnate.

 

[Old Sweat]

Still ongoing with the FN folks around here.  Hardly a day seems to go by without some comment on the radio on the subject.  If it were up to them, he would be erased from the history books.  He is to them, the devil incarnate.

In my opinion there is some selective interpretation of history involved. The campaign for Nova Scotia during the French and Indian Wars and indeed before then involved what we would consider some pretty nasty stuff by both sides. It was, on the other hand, considered as a normal part of Eastern North American warfare back then.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Being  non-FN, of WASP origins and a westerner too boot, I don't really have a dog in the fight so I suppose I may not be as clued in to the nuances of what was done when by whom to this party or that.  We are in the 21st Century judging men/women of the 18th Century by our standards of today.  Is it fair?  Is it just?  I don't know, but I'm sure there was nasty deeds done by both sides. 

I know the Acadian community are still upset about the expulsion to this day, but I do wonder as how warfare was conducted and attitudes of the era that the Acadian's of the day were bloody lucky not to be put to the sword instead of having to start afresh in Louisiana.  It was ethnic cleansing by our standards to be sure but I can understand the British commanders such as Cornwallis not being keen on a civilian population behind their lines that would not swear allegiance to the crown.  That being said, I can appreciate how some of the decendants would have strong feelings on the subject of Edward Cornwallis.

 

[Remius]

I think one has to look at the Civil war as part of the US "growing up".  Remember that the United States of America were a bunch of individual colonies "states" as it were that wanted independance from British rule.  heck they wanted less central interference.  For many at that time, they were American but their allegiance was to their State first.  Virginia for Virginans for example.  Economics may have been a driving factor but...

As mentioned many of these officers served the US and in some cases quite gallantly.  In the end the US had to heal and pardons, forgiveness etc were necessary to keep the Union together.  Part of that is recognising the rebels as Americans and not as traitors.  Treating the "enemy" as defeated worthy opponents with respect and dignity.

This really hits home when you visit some of the civil war battlefields and see the monuments and as well as the veteran groups that persisted until the 20th century. 

Southern sentiments and pride are still strong to this day.

There are schools and monuments here in Canada that honour people we would consider traitors as well but had their role in the shaping of this country.

 

[Jacky Tar]

There are schools and monuments here in Canada that honour people we would consider traitors as well but had their role in the shaping of this country.

Louis Riel comes to mind. Depending on which way one views it, he was a patriot or a traitor.

 

[Old Sweat]

Being  non-FN, of WASP origins and a westerner too boot, I don't really have a dog in the fight so I suppose I may not be as clued in to the nuances of what was done when by whom to this party or that.  We are in the 21st Century judging men/women of the 18th Century by our standards of today.  Is it fair?  Is it just?  I don't know, but I'm sure there was nasty deeds done by both sides. 

I know the Acadian community are still upset about the expulsion to this day, but I do wonder as how warfare was conducted and attitudes of the era that the Acadian's of the day were bloody lucky not to be put to the sword instead of having to start afresh in Louisiana.  It was ethnic cleansing by our standards to be sure but I can understand the British commanders such as Cornwallis not being keen on a civilian population behind their lines that would not swear allegiance to the crown.  That being said, I can appreciate how some of the decendants would have strong feelings on the subject of Edward Cornwallis.

For a balanced view of the war in Nova Scotia try The Far Reaches of Empire: War in Nova Scotia, 1710-1760 by John Grenier. I should warn you that his writing style would bore the author of your average CFAO or whatever we call them these days, but the information is there.

 

[Journeyman]

Ah yes, the joys of revisionist history.  Hit <delete> and we simply won't have to remember troubling bits of history, let alone think about them.    :

Time magazine's "Man of the Year" -- Hitler, Stalin (twice), Khrushchev, Ayatollah Khomeini...no problem.  But naming US Bases after Confederate Generals, most who fought in wars beyond the US Civil War where their actions are still apparently laudable, is scandalous.

If they really want to get ruffled for no useful reason.....what about 5 of our 12 months being named for Roman gods! Days of our week being named for Norse and Roman gods!  HERESY!! Those need to be changed!  Where are those Westboro Baptist wack-jobs when we need them?!



Oh, and for an interesting and easily-readible history of some of these 'nasty, evil' Generals, I'd recommend John Waugh's The Class of 1846: From West Point to Appomattox

 

[The Bread Guy]

In the end the US had to heal and pardons, forgiveness etc were necessary to keep the Union together.  Part of that is recognising the rebels as Americans and not as traitors.  Treating the "enemy" as defeated worthy opponents with respect and dignity.

Good point.

There are schools and monuments here in Canada that honour people we would consider traitors as well but had their role in the shaping of this country.

But no "Riel Barracks", named for someone who devil's advocates might suggest was as insurrectionist as the Confederates were.

 

[Remius]

But there was an HMCS Poundmaker. 

Poundmaker was a leader during the North West Rebellion.

I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[The Bread Guy]

But there was an HMCS Poundmaker. 

Poundmaker was a leader during the North West Rebellion ....

I do learn something new every day - thanks for that.

That said, though, I don't see the same level of appetite here for a "CFB Riel" as I see in the U.S. for remembering Confederate leaders in a less-than-loser light.

 

[Remius]

I do learn something new every day - thanks for that.

That said, though, I don't see the same level of appetite here for a "CFB Riel" as I see in the U.S. for remembering Confederate leaders in a less-than-loser light.

True but we hardly had anything come close to what they experienced in the US.  and I would argue that Riel was more of a political man than a military man.  Hence schools and monuments and parks.  Plus we have a different naming convention.

There's a certain element of noble intent when you honour a worthy foe you respect.  FOB Geronimo for example for the USMC.


This argument is hardly new in the US.  Here's a link to some USN naming controversies.  Some surprised me and I'm shocked to see this kind of goat rodeo from our allies to the south.


http://news.usni.org/2013/04/23/twenty-six-us-navy-ship-naming-controversies

 

[Kirkhill]

Re: the Acadians

For a sense of the world at that time you might want to look up -

Massacre of La Torre Waldensians 1655
Milton's Response
Revolt of the Cevennes of 1702
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonnade

These events are the ones that drove Ligonier, Cavalier, Prevost, Amherst and Paul Mascarene  out of France and into the British Army.
Paul Mascarene was, for a while, Deputy Governor of Nova Scotia.  All the rest of them became Generals with Ligonier being Wolfe's boss as Commander in Chief of the entire British Army.

You might also look up Britain's versions of the Dragonnade
The Killing Time
The Highland Host

And finally there is the role of the Gallican Church and the Societe des Missions Etrangeres and their fraught relations with both the Protestants and Rome.

No excuses offered for my ancestors - equally no apologies.

 

[Journeyman]

No excuses offered for my ancestors - equally no apologies.

:goodpost: