CBC: "An 'embarrassing' gear shortage has Canadian troops in Latvia buying their own helmets"

[Blackadder1916]

No my question was how you’d a ) determine the injury was a result of a low cut vs a High cut and b) gather statistically significant results

It works the other way round. The statistics (ICD codes) are gathered for every injury and illness in the military (and usually civilian world in conjunction with medical insurance billing) in war and peace. The statistics would could indicate an increasing trend in a specific injury or location of injury. The next question would be why. The effectiveness of various types of helmet would be a likely focus of study if the trend is head related wounds.

It's not always a quick process. My expectation is that there will be significant (already quite a bit) trauma research from the Ukrainian war.

 

[Underway]

I’ve also shot at a Canadian Helmet and the issued frag vest. The results were not encouraging. I think the Ballistiv Eyewear example gets touted when frankly it’s probably the exception vs the rule, for all the melting UA t shirts, no one complains about the issues thermals.

I could bring up the example of concussive injuries due to soldiers replacing their helmet webbing with foam panels which meant the explosive force was transfered directly to their skull instead of flexing on the webbing. Or buying their own ballistic plates that couldn't stop 7.62 100% of the time (once from X distance... which was the requirement).

I'm not saying that we shouldn't question the kit, nor should we have a discussion on what we want to prioritize. Do we want lighter helmets that let you move and fight with less neck stress? Better frag protection means what? Better fit, lighter, better protection? You can't have all those things as there are tradeoffs.

And then when the CAF creates a priority individual soldiers decide they don't like it and buy their own gear. We have to pull that noise out of what is really working for us and what we really need.

And that due diligence is often what causes the projects to take so friggin long.

 

[Infanteer]

As has been noted here, a lot of the article was incorrect or misleading. We can give Mr Brewster a golf clap.

A good twitter thread talking through the issue.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1665926337511448578

 

[markppcli]

I could bring up the example of concussive injuries due to soldiers replacing their helmet webbing with foam panels which meant the explosive force was transfered directly to their skull instead of flexing on the webbing. Or buying their own ballistic plates that couldn't stop 7.62 100% of the time (once from X distance... which was the requirement).

Can you actually bring up examples, or is that just something you heard ? Who wa swapping out plates never saw that in my life.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't question the kit, nor should we have a discussion on what we want to prioritize. Do we want lighter helmets that let you move and fight with less neck stress? Better frag protection means what? Better fit, lighter, better protection? You can't have all those things as there are tradeoffs.

Yes there are trad offs, but what we have right now is arguably the worst of all worlds.

And then when the CAF creates a priority individual soldiers decide they don't like it and buy their own gear. We have to pull that noise out of what is really working for us and what we really need.

Again, repeatedly said, that isnt happening. There is a point though here wide scale rejection of equipment probably means it isn’t working. Our kit is atrocious across the board. Maybe it works on a ship. I don’t know, but I don’t comment where I don’t have experience.

And that due diligence is often what causes the projects to take so friggin long.

Our process is so long it’s absurd. The British went through three different armour systems from 2006-2014, and changed uniforms, we did nothing. We decided we knew better and did 0 adjustment. Must be because we knew better than everyone

 

[OldSolduer]

We had a discussion about soldiers replacing the innards of their helmets a number of years ago.

I agree with Underway. Prioritize your kit.

I’ll never have to use it but I’d like to see our troops with decent gear.

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

This is nothing new. In 1999, I had a Cpl that bought his own kevlar body armor and was going to wear it in Kosovo. He submitted a memo to the CO to be allowed to wear it. In the memo he cited facts and studies that demonstrated his COTS purchase was lighter and stopped penetration much better than the issued heavy plates. The CO and the RSM rejected his request as it was not military issue, regardless of the safety aspects.

 

[ueo]

Can you actually bring up examples, or is that just something you heard ? Who wa swapping out plates never saw that in my life.



Yes there are trad offs, but what we have right now is arguably the worst of all worlds.




Again, repeatedly said, that isnt happening. There is a point though here wide scale rejection of equipment probably means it isn’t working. Our kit is atrocious across the board. Maybe it works on a ship. I don’t know, but I don’t comment where I don’t have experience.


Our process is so long it’s absurd. The British went through three different armour systems from 2006-2014, and changed uniforms, we did nothing. We decided we knew better and did 0 adjustment. Must be because we knew better than everyone

Due diligence my ass! Just foot dragging to save $$$$ with the hope the issue will go away.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't question the kit, nor should we have a discussion on what we want to prioritize. Do we want lighter helmets that let you move and fight with less neck stress? Better frag protection means what? Better fit, lighter, better protection? You can't have all those things as there are tradeoffs.



And that due diligence is often what causes the projects to take so friggin long.

I had a discussion with a Cpl that was WIA in Afghanistan. His complaint was that by the time all the required kit was worn, the mobility of the soldier was severely hampered. In other words slower and cumbersome.
Due diligence is great but at what point is it really dragging things out for the sake of process?

 

[Haggis]

This is nothing new. In 1999, I had a Cpl that bought his own kevlar body armor and was going to wear it in Kosovo. He submitted a memo to the CO to be allowed to wear it. In the memo he cited facts and studies that demonstrated his COTS purchase was lighter and stopped penetration much better than the issued heavy plates. The CO and the RSM rejected his request as it was not military issue, regardless of the safety aspects.

I believe the US military went through this with Dragon Skin a few or more years ago to the point where DVA said soldiers injured while wearing it may not be eligible for coverage. Looking at @KevinB for more details?

 

[Fabius]

Institutional inertia combined with risk aversion leading to excessive due diligence so as to avoid risk reinforced by limited money and excessive process have resulted in our equipment personnel or otherwise being outdated.

This is the narrative that exists and it’s largely true I would argue and it’s directly affecting the CAFs ability to recruit I would bet. The article may have some facts wrong and the examples might be incorrect but the CO for 2 PPCLI during their eFP rotation got it right in his email.

If the CAs next move is to quibble the details and argue that we are working as fast as we can but it’s complicated, the CA will continue to be behind and the narrative will continue.

Of course you can’t please everyone but right now our equipment is likely only pleasing our potential adversaries.

In the words of our Prime Minister, we need to do better.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I had a discussion with a Cpl that was WIA in Afghanistan. His complaint was that by the time all the required kit was worn, the mobility of the soldier was severely hampered. In other words slower and cumbersome.
Due diligence is great but at what point is it really dragging things out for the sake of process?

Risk aversion parading as prioritizing "safety".

I remember having similar conversations and the general concensus among peers was that the 15% (random statistic) chance that it saved your life due to Frag, Concussion, or SAF were great....but it shouldn't hamper your ability to move around the battle space, adopt proper firing positions, and keep the other guy's head down. Bullets being the best medicine in a TCCC scenario and all that.

It was even better hearing the Armoured folks point out that wearing the amount of PPE in the TFSO had potential to make exfil out of the vehicle extremely difficult if they needed to bail out.

Common sense doesn't factor in when you base everything on the Globe and Mail test.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Risk aversion parading as prioritizing "safety".

I remember having similar conversations and the general concensus among peers was that the 15% (random statistic) chance that it saved your life due to Frag, Concussion, or SAF were great....but it shouldn't hamper your ability to move around the battle space, adopt proper firing positions, and keep the other guy's head down. Bullets being the best medicine in a TCCC scenario and all that.

It was even better hearing the Armoured folks point out that wearing the amount of PPE in the TFSO had potential to make exfil out of the vehicle extremely difficult if they needed to bail out.

Common sense doesn't factor in when you base everything on the Globe and Mail test.

Survey says: 138lbs of stuff...

How Much Weight Do Soldiers Have To Carry?!​

 

[Brad Sallows]

Answer: as much as they possibly can, irrespective of era.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Answer: as much as they possibly can, irrespective of era.

Yea the amount of weight soldiers carry in the field during operations has remained fairly consistent since Roman times.

 

[mariomike]

Yea the amount of weight soldiers carry in the field during operations has remained fairly consistent since Roman times.

Reminds me of the old saying,

You can always tell an old soldier by the inside of his holsters and cartridge boxes. The young ones carry pistols and cartridges; the old ones, grub.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yea the amount of weight soldiers carry in the field during operations has remained fairly consistent since Roman times.

The Malayan Emergency Chest Rig enters the chat

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Malayan Emergency Chest Rig enters the chat

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Not a war........

 

[Furniture]

Yea the amount of weight soldiers carry in the field during operations has remained fairly consistent since Roman times.

I think there is a misconception regarding "Marius's Mules", they carried about 75lbs while on the march, not while in battle order crushing barbarians.

We expect people these days to carry more weight, and then keep the weight on while fighting.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The Malayan Emergency Chest Rig enters the chat

View attachment 77987

Look at that beautiful LE No.5 ... My fav rifle of all time.

 

[KevinB]

I believe the US military went through this with Dragon Skin a few or more years ago to the point where DVA said soldiers injured while wearing it may not be eligible for coverage. Looking at @KevinB for more details?

Oh Dragon Skin.
I bought a set when in Iraq.
Its only real claim to fame was mobility - it was flexible as the hard plates were in overlapping disks. It was flexible due to that, although heavier than most US issue LIV plates.
Unfortunately in the heat, the disks came loose from the soft armor backer, and resulted in gaps in coverage (disk migration, was the term, probably as they went SUL, —> south - or down…)

- It gave great multi hit ballistic protection up until that occurred - then gaps where effectively only LIIIA soft armor. At the time I was concerned about 7.62x54R AP and APIT ammo,

We ended up shooting it up on a range, and I ensured I went with a JSOC approved plate and helmet every after.

The US Army originally was strongly recommending that it not be worn, then banning it all together when the disk ‘migration’ issue popped up. I don’t know if anyone was actually injured using it - but it does highlight the potential issues for COTS PPE, and one needs to do due diligence if one is going to acquire non issued PPE.

Some of the Polymer Plates also created issues in GWOT. They were an exceptionally light weight option, and they did great again 7.62x39 rounds. They also would delaminate in the heat, and didn’t do great against 5.56mm SS109 type projectiles
So they became popular with some units.

Generally some unit somewhere has likely tested pretty much most gear, and as long as one understands that their criteria may be different than one’s own mission set, one can get a good sense of what performance of those items should be.

If one wants to be on the bleeding edge of technology, one needs to have a JSOC funding level to acquire and test that sort of stuff with any kind of certainty of performance, because generally 99.999% of manufacturers will highlight the pro’s and minimize the cons.