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And the survey says... (Essay/rant)

FredDaHead

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The shift away from proper language skills: a short analysis

Kids can't write. Heck, people my age can't write.

Now, it might be because I'm a French major (along with History)  and I read a whole lot of books, but I have a lot of trouble respecting someone who rits lik diz n cnt spel prprly bcoz dey r so kewl. (For those who don't read retard: someone who writes like this and cannot spell properly because they are so cool.) Sure, if you're chatting on MSN you can use shorthand--if you really have to because you're chatting on MSN using your cell phone, or you're really pressed for time, or whatever reason. Same if you're speaking; I sound like a bloody valley person sometimes. (Working on that. I want to at least speak Mockney. Sure beats Newfie!)

There also appears to be some confusion regarding the use of paragraphs. More specifically, it appears as though people have forgotten that paragraphs even exist. After Holocaust-deniers, we have paragraph-deniers. People who write two pages of poorly worded, error-ridden excrement, without hitting the Enter key once.

To go back to the respect aspect of the question, now. I think if someone doesn't respect me enough to offer the most basic of courtesies by writing properly and legibly, I shouldn't respect them enough to even bother reading what they've written, let alone help them if they're asking for my help. Would you send a letter to your grandmother ritin lik diz n makin weird sntnce w/out ritin full word and usin propr gramr n spelin? I think not. So why disrespect everyone else by writing like a complete retard? Unless you're in elementary school--in which case you probably shouldn't be reading this--you have absolutely no reason to not write properly. This is especially true of university students. I can't imagine how many points some of these people lost just in terms of grammar/spelling/etc errors.

This brings me to my second subtopic: the root cause.

Now, I can't conclusively lay the blame on anyone; I'm not a sociologist and my knowledge of education theories is severely limited. However, I can theorize on a few possible culprits.

First, the education system. Like I said, I don't know about theories and I don't know about the various systems in place and all that jazz. What I do know, is that students coming out of high school seem to lack a basic set of language skills in their first language. While the cause might lay elsewhere, the education system is at fault if only for allowing students to graduate and go on to university while lacking those basic skills. If the education system enforced the need for language skills--grammar and spelling, at least--then the problem would at least start to go away. I'm fairly certain that if someone is told they will not graduate from high school because they cannot write properly, they will learn how to do so and apply those skills, if only they can get that minimum wage job at the factory, that requires a high school diploma as a minimum.

Second, the internet generation phenomena. The problem of being unable to write seems to have appeared in large part with the internet. Even the MTV generation, while they might have some trouble writing in an eloquent, more "elevated" language, have the basic skills to communicate in written form. They might have trouble conjugating (especially in French) or they might forget an "s" here or there, but they generally write somewhat properly. However, the generation immediately following the MTV generation--those of us who grew up with the internet, and those that are coming up after us--seems to have forgotten that beyond the wild world of "1337sp33k" and "msn speek," there is the real world where real people interact in the Queen's English and in French. (And in German, Spanish, and all the other languages, except msn speek.)

This poses a very serious problem. While Generation Xers and those of us who came either at the tail end of Generation X, or at the junction point between Generation X and the Internet Generation, have language skills, it is likely we will not reach the higher echelons of power within our productive lives. The previous generations will still cling to power and the GenXers will only seep through slowly; that seepage will accelerate and eventually people from my generation will start getting in, but that process will be limited. The Internet Generation, however, will come of age at a time where the previous generations will be getting out of power--most of today's politicians will be too old to stay in office. This is scary, because those men and women of the future will likely still have trouble writing effectively. How will they sign treaties, pass new laws, and generally run the world, if they can't even write a sentence without making some major mistakes? There are other problems the Internet Generation will face on its way to power, but that's for another day.

Generally, the Internet Generation is at a crossroads between looking "kewl" while they're teenagers and learning the language skills they will need not only to enter the real world, but to lead it, decades later.

The third culprit, and the last, (it's the triumvirate of evil!) is the parents. Now, I know it's not easy being a parent in the twenty-first century. Or at the very least, I can imagine it being very difficult. That being said, there seems to be a paradigm shift between the parenting of old, which basically meant one of the parents stayed at home during the formative years and then sent the child to kindergarten when he/she was old enough and made sure the child learned basic skills and aptitudes to later apply them in elementary school and throughout high school, and to foster a thirst for learning, towards a new parenting based on nannies, sitting a baby in front of the TV, and generally being an absent parent. The surge in utterly mindless, useless made-for-toddlers TV is a good sign of this paradigm. After all, my generation had Carebears and Mr. Rogers. This generation has Tele Tubbies. We learned about morals and how to count and how to make finger puppets; they learn about how to roll around in astroturf--not even real grass--and look up at a computer-rendered sky that has a baby's face superimposed on the sun. We read Goosebumps and other such short, quality novels; they read Harry Potter LXXIV.

Parents are distancing themselves from raising their children. While I appreciate the need for both parents to work in many families, I don't know if I can understand the need to not take any time off for at least a year or two while the child grows up and learns to understand the world.

To sum up my parenting point, I think that parents of today, most likely due to the economic and societal paradigms of the twenty-first century, are not only raising fewer children than previous generations, furthering the lack of future employment, but they are also raising "lower-quality" children who, because of the various faults in parenting during their "most important years" (from birth to about five years old), will grow up to be less educated, less competent, and generally will make up a generation of lost souls. As I've pointed out, they'll be the ones who will have to rise and lead the countries in a few decades; I'm not sure I feel very good about that.

For those who have skimmed through this and only read the first few words of each paragraph, this is where you should start reading so you know what I said. First, kids, and even people my age, simply cannot write properly for the most part, and I find it disrespectful. Second, I theorized that there are three main culprits: the education system, the phenomena of the Internet Generation, and poor parenting. The education system does not value good writing skills as much as it should, the Internet Generation is growing up using MSN and not writing properly and will eventually end up leading--poorly--the world, and parents are distancing themselves from actually parenting and are raising a generation of illiterate, uncultured, generally apathetic children who will, like I said, lead the world. Something should be done, must be done, if we are to change the situation and not only have children and young adults who can read and write properly, but also who can think critically and understand the world enough to have a good grasp on its problems so that those problems might be addressed.

That is all. Thank you, good night, and God bless Canada.



Any thoughts would be appreciated, as well as discussion, even if it's just to tell me I'm an idiot and I should stay in my lanes.

Edit: modified the slight problem pointed out by OldJourneyman.
 
Any thoughts would be appreciated, as well as discussion, even if it's just to tell me I'm an idiot and I should stay in my lanes.
You're an idiot. Stay in your lane (singular).

Oh, and by the way.....
other problems the Internet Generation will face on it's way to power
"its" is a possessive pronoun; "it's" is a contraction for "it is." Learn to write please; it's only being respectful of those of us who can.  ::)

;D
 
I said I'm a French major, (not to be confused with Major, which is a rank I cannot possibly get to, being in the Naval branch of the Canadian Forces) not an English major. I also lay the blame on my teachers who taught me the way to show possession in English is to add "'s" to the pronoun or word.

As for lanes or lane; I do have more than one. :P I'm a student at RMC, I'm a French Studies major, and I'm also a History major. That's three right there. Of course, compared to how many you have with your career ADD, my number of lanes might appear to be zero.
 
Fred, you asked for thoughts....and for someone to tell you you're an idiot. I try to get along, and now you make excuses, blame your teachers, and seem to believe that you have three lanes, let alone one. Man, your generation's whiney.

;)
 
Journeyman said:
Fred, you asked for thoughts....and for someone to tell you you're an idiot. I try to get along, and now you make excuses, blame your teachers, and seem to believe that you have three lanes, let alone one. Man, your generation's whiney.

I didn't say I wanted someone to call me an idiot, just that even that opinion was fine. I think you need to adjust your glasses, old man.

And did I say my generation's not whiney? We're not as bad as the Internet Generation, but we're pretty darned close!
 
Any thoughts would be appreciated, as well as discussion, even if it's just to tell me I'm an idiot and I should stay in my lanes.

Frederik, true you did not ask for "anyone to call you an idiot".  Just to be clear, I'm telling you, you are an idiot.

If you were not up to the critique, perhaps you should not have posted your essay

My two cents

emmiee
 
Actually, you are the problem.
In previous generations, only high school teachers and undergraduate professors had to deal with bad writing. The problem is, you are reading stuff that never before saw the light of day, because never before has the common person had the abilty to publish his poorly expressed thoughts.

Paragraph structure is important, to you. Other people have other priorities.  If poor written english is disrespectful to you, it is only because people don't care what you think. Remember, 1337sp33k, by it's very nature, is intended to exclude you.

The same technology that is exposing you to irritating communications is making the teaching of language easier. Certainly my kids are well ahead of where I was back in the good old days. Perhaps you should stop watching care bears reruns and look for Reading Rainbow, or Between the Lions.

You're not an idiot, just a curmudgeon, and as an academic, you are expected to promote learning, good on ya.

This is not a serious problem. Those who need to communicate, will. A cheesy picket sign works as well in our democracy as a well written book. And if we learned anything from the Chretien years, it is that the pinnacle of canadian power does not require a facility with either official language.
 
emmiee said:
My two cents

emmiee

Aaaah, the smell of people who don't get the humour and insult people for absolutely no reason. I missed that; I really did.

edgar said:
Actually, you are the problem.
In previous generations, only high school teachers and undergraduate professors had to deal with bad writing. The problem is, you are reading stuff that never before saw the light of day, because never before has the common person had the abilty to publish his poorly expressed thoughts.

Paragraph structure is important, to you. Other people have other priorities.  If poor written english is disrespectful to you, it is only because people don't care what you think. Remember, 1337sp33k, by it's very nature, is intended to exclude you.

You raise good points. The thing is, if everyone starts writing poorly, not only will we lose culture--I'd assume and hope that books in 1337sp33k wouldn't do very well in stores--but the problem will also get booted upwards. If everyone writes poorly, universities will grant degrees to people who can't write, if only because there will be a need for "university-trained" people, and graduate teachers will start correcting work that will be poorly written.


The same technology that is exposing you to irritating communications is making the teaching of language easier. Certainly my kids are well ahead of where I was back in the good old days. Perhaps you should stop watching care bears reruns and look for Reading Rainbow, or Between the Lions.

Honestly I pointed out the care bears and the teletubbies because I don't watch much TV and I have no clue about today's children shows.

I agree with your point that technology makes the teaching of language easier, but it runs both ways, as I pointed out. It's helping those children who are being pushed to learn, to do so, but it's not helping those kids who aren't being pushed, or simply aren't interested, to learn.

This is not a serious problem. Those who need to communicate, will. A cheesy picket sign works as well in our democracy as a well written book. And if we learned anything from the Chretien years, it is that the pinnacle of canadian power does not require a facility with either official language.

Do you really want a succession of Chretienites to run the Canada of the Future? (I know, I know, straw man and all...)

And why would we accept today's "cheesy picket signs" vice a well-written book, anyway? Couldn't we decide we've had enough of poorly educated tugs waving some signs and getting whatever they want, while intelligent authors write about things that would actually work to solve society's problems are ignored?
 
You posted your essay here because you thought it was good and would receive tremendous support.

It isn't.  You didn't.  Stop whining about it.  Quit blaming everyone else for EVERYTHING... especially your inability to predict that we don't give a rat's a** about your opinion on something as mundane as writing skills.  Being an RMC student does not qualify you to be an expert on ANYTHING .  You haven't graduated and you have not completed your training so your 'lanes' do not include history or french studies at this time.  A brushing familiarity does not make you a SME.  And despite the fact that you clearly know NOTHING about raising children, you chose to comment. Well done. ::)

Enough already.
 
Couple questions for you, Olga.

First, if you care so little, why did you bother (presumably) reading and, most importantly, posting? Nothing better to do?

Second, what are your qualifications to say that I'm wrong?

Third, does your post mean I can mock and belittle anyone I don't agree with and say that further discussion isn't warranted? Because if that's the case, I'm going to have a whole lot of fun in here.

Considering I'm only a few credits short of actually finishing my major in French and more than halfway through for my History major, I'm fairly certain that constitutes more than a "brushing" familiarity. But like I said, if you're so great as to decide what does and doesn't constitute knowledge, why don't you post your qualifications?
 
Folks, please put the discussion back on the original subject and leave the personal insults and challenges out of it.

Army.ca Staff
 
OK, my fault for leading the charge.

I just find it's so much fun to bait Fred because he actually believes we care about his opinion.*  ;D
* And I say this from having met him in person; it's not just online bashing.  ;)

In all seriousness, he's right; people write abysmally.



Come here Fred....  :-*    All better?

There. I'm done.


I'll return to my hermitage now  ;D 
 
Journeyman said:
I just find it's so much fun to bait Fred because he actually believes we care about his opinion.*  ;D
* And I say this from having met him in person; it's not just online bashing.  ;)

I just believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, preferably mine. ;D


Come here Fred....   :-*    All better?

As much as I think getting an "Airborne" shirt legitimately* would be great, I don't want one that badly, and I still have time to get that lobotomy and actually get one for myself the "best" way. ;)

*I don't have a non-legitimately-acquired Airborne shirt, though.
 
huh... home come so many of you cool people have met, but I have never met any of you?  ??? Cant you cool people come out West sometime? I mean I'll even throw in a bear for ya  ;)

Fred I agree many can't write, but how's this, fewer can read!  ;D
 
MedTech said:
huh... home come so many of you cool people have met, but I have never met any of you?  ??? Cant you cool people come out West sometime? I mean I'll even throw in a bear for ya  ;)

I'm going out West this summer. :P

By the way, that bear offer...  is it a Kodiak bear? Maybe a Grizzly? Is it tamed? If so, what kind of tricks will it perform? Do you guarantee it won't try to eat me? Finally, do you also pay its food? ;)
 
Fred, you're right some people are terrible writers. However I don't agree that it's due to bad parenting or the education system. I do agree that some of this is due to the new technology available to children, including the internet.

I believe the Internet is a very good learning source and is a host to many good resources for information that is much more accessible than the local library. The only problem is that that means that instead of getting up and walking to the local library we just sit down on the couch with our new laptop and type away for hours on end. We just lost some physical exercises along with the sense of having to work for something, which creates laziness. If I don't have to do something extra why would I do it? If I can shorten up my sentences and still have people understand me why would I need to bother writing it all out? I don't follow by this policy but you get my point, I just think were lazy.

I don't agree with what you said about the education system as I am currently still in the education system and I can tell you the teachers place a lot of weight on your ability to write. If you cannot write properly then you are assigned extra help or you are enrolled in a sub-academic level course where they use slower teaching methods and schedules. It all goes back to how much effort your willing to put into it.

I also don't agree with you saying it's the parents fault. I think you'll find the children of today have it much better than some of the hardships our earlier generations had to endure. The education system is much better, the children generally have more possessions and utilities to learn with and in my opinion they'd have just as much time spent on them as if it was back in the old days. Through your logic the children of today have less siblings and less time spent with them. How do you know that? Can you tell me of your experiences "back in the day"? I would THINK {as in I don't know but it works with MY logic} that the kids would have just as much time spent with them now as back then, as the parents have less kids and more "work" {career time} now but "back then" the parents would have had to spend times with possibly up to 8, 9, 10 other kids.

Having said all that, I think your wrong. I plain old think were lazy and it's no ones fault but our own. All you can do is suck it up and work on your own grammar {work ethic} and not worry about everyone else, if you think it makes that much of a difference maybe you'll become Prime Minister some day.  ;D

                                              Steve  :cdn:
PS: Sorry if I stepped out of my lanes everything I have said is in MY OPINION ONLY and should not be taken as offence.
 
steveyb4342 said:
maybe you'll become Prime Minister some day.   ;D

Do you really think I want to lead a country of lazy, obese illiterates? Puh-leese!  ::) </irony>

I don't know if I can agree with your point about sub-par writers being given more help. It might only be a problem at RMC and at my old high school, but it seems that a good proportion of people who are out of high school still can't write properly. I do agree that it has to do with effort, but that effort, like you pointed out yourself, has to be warranted. If I know I can get by with my mediocre writing skills, then what's the point in improving? The cost of opportunity is far too high for the benefit, which is almost non-existant, at least in the eyes of many high school kids.

I get your point about parents, but is it better to spend all day with your mom and share her with 5 (or 10) siblings, or only share her with one sibling but have her for an hour or two after her workday when she's tired and cranky? Back in the day of large families, older siblings took care of the younger ones; the oldest sister was almost a second mother. Now, the kids not only have no parents around, they also don't have older siblings. Besides, when you put your kid in kindergarten, he shares a few educators' attention with 20 other kids.

---

See, this is what I wanted to elicit by starting this thread: a civilised discussion.
 
I remember the year I switched from public to private school - I left Grade 9 with an A in English and the mistaken impression that I could at least write a sentence.  Luckily, I wasn't the only one in my class with that same mistaken impression.  The first essay I did for Grade 10 English was (I thought) a pretty good effort - a decent argument presented in an organized fashion with facts to back me up.  What I got back left me with a scar on my chin from it hitting the pavement - it looked like someone had slashed their throat all over my paper.  I mean the teacher had actually run out of space for comments and editorial and was actually writing upside down in the corners.  I got a resounding 43% on that paper - and that wasn't the lowest mark either.  I seem to recall the highest one was about 54.

By then end of the year I managed to get an 86 out of that guy.  The next year, I was selected to write for the Royal Commonwealth Society Essay Competition.  Once I started university, I was having no problems writing - I wish I could say the same for my peers though.  In first year, alot of people were having huge problems with their essays - everything from grammar to sentence and actual essay structure.  I even remember accidentally reading an ex's paper one time while printing it out - she was a PhD candidate taking a filler course - and had to go into edit mode because her 6 page paper had exactly 6 sentences in it.  I had to add punctuation and capital letters before I could bear to let it be handed in.  I'm willing to bet that there was a combination of too much coasting that was allowed to ride and a serious problem within the school systems that condones this mediocrity.  Before a dogpile starts, I was one of those coasters.

I'm seeing the same problems from subordinates these days too.  I've had memos submitted to me for onward transmission that I've fired back because a 2 year old with a crayon could have done better.  I had one that went back at least 5 times just because the person who wrote it was either totally iliterate or too bone idle (or both) to even spell correctly, much less construct a proper sentence.  What galled me the most was the soldier concerned was annoyed that their memo wasn'tt being accepted for those reasons.  I'd hate to be the person who's promotion depended on a PER written by them.

My 2 cents.

MM
 
edgar said:
...never before has the common person had the abilty to publish his poorly expressed thoughts.

I can't believe I didn't get busted for this. Clearly none of these people are competent to argue the merits of  writing well.

Lazy? How about efficient. The purpose of writing is to communicate. If you can do that without effort, your effort can be applied to more communication. If spell check works, why learn to spell? Seriously. Waste your time on pleasant things. One of the smarter things I ever heard a Squadron Commander say is "this year we aren't going to waste time correcting spelling and formatting in internal communications, The only thing gets the red pen is letters going outside the squadron." That's just good time management.

Some people don't like reading books, let alone writing them. This doesn't mean you are smarter than they are. Don't demand that they jump through your hoops before you will listen to them. They will simply talk to someone else.

It's true, things were better in the old days. Dad would go out hunting buffalo with a sharp stick, and me and mom would dig for root vegetables with dull sticks and practice our language skills.

Speaking seriously of the "good old days", when I was a kid, I actually read the Encyclopedia Britannica, A through P. I stopped at P because my parents ran out of the disposable income to keep buying them. The internet is an unqualified advancement. I don't have writing skills because I'm not lazy, It's because I like reading. I like reading because I am lazy, and reading is excellent escapism. I'm lazy because I am efficient. And because I am smarter than you.
 
edgar said:
If spell check works, why learn to spell?

Hmmm - because Spell Check does just that, check spelling.  It doesn't, however, check the word to see if it's used appropriately, and since the English language is full of homonyms, it will often miss something that's in the wrong spot or context if the spelling is correct.  Oddly enough, the Grammar Check fails to note the same things.

Oh yeah - your precious computer might not be around either and you just might have to hand write something that someone else might have to read or worse, present to someone else.  I'm pretty sure that, given the fact you've asserted that you are smart, you'd like to continue appearing that way.  Showing that you can spell does that.

MM
 
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