Are musicians soldiers or not?

[McG]

What about PAffOs and musicians?  Soldiers or not?

...

I don't see the CIC as being fundamentally different from certain other staff types in support roles.  Most CF members participate in, or directly support those who participate in, combat activities.  But a few MOCs such as the PAffOs and musicians I've mentionned above, and CIC officers, do not. 

I apologize for the hijack, but yes I do lump PAFFOs and Musicians into the war machine, can you quantify morale boosting and selling us to the taxpayer? It's all part of the machine, and I agree with others that CIC's play no real role in the machine.

Bandsmen . . . hmm.  To be honest, I'd be okay if we had to drop a few of them to put more money into other parts of our forces.

Maybye if we were actually ALLOWED to do SQ (which, according to my Brigade's standard's unit, we are not allowed to do) we could fullfill an actual role (other then our main one as musicians) in wartime/crisis other then GD. Anyways, back on topic.

Actually, look up your history. There have been instances of bandsmen winning VC's (mostly in WW1) and they contributed directly to the moral of the troops and were in the thick of the fighting in every major battle. These days, our job is to promote the CF in the eye of the public and contribute to parades (all military parades need music, thats how it has always been) and other official functions, and (in those units that actually let us train as such) to act as infantrymen as a secondary role.

From the thread Alternate for the CIC. 

 

[McG]

Actually, look up your history. There have been instances of bandsmen winning VC's (mostly in WW1) and they contributed directly to the moral of the troops and were in the thick of the fighting in every major battle.

No argument there.   However, we no longer send musicians onto the battlefield.

 

[McG]

there is no question that we should at least be SQ qualified and possibly trained to do a secondary duty in time of crisis (as a driver, for example).

Why not the other way around?  All musicians have some MOC as their primary roll, and play an instrument as a secondary duty.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt bandsmen perfom as strecher bearers during wartime at one time?

 

[aesop081]

Why not the other way around?   All musicians have some MOC as their primary roll, and play an instrument as a secondary duty.

Thats not correct for all musicians.  Bands such as the air command band are composed of people who are musicians by MOC, it is not a secondary duty.

 

[George Wallace]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt bandsmen perfom as strecher bearers during wartime at one time?

Yes they did.  In those days they were members of the Regimental Band and performed those duties to assist the Medics.  Today, due to Budget cutbacks in the 1970's, there are no longer Regimental Bands in the Regular Force.  That role has faded into history.

EDIT ADDITION:  When there were Regimental Bands in the Regular Force after WW II, their members were all Professional Musicians.  Many landed up in Air Command, Central Command or Maritime Command Bands when the Regiments lost their Bands.  Today the Regimental Bands in the Army and Reserve are made up of volunteers from various units and in some cases Legion Members and Civilians.

 

[Infanteer]

Why not the other way around?   All musicians have some MOC as their primary roll, and play an instrument as a secondary duty.

The Aussies still do it this way.

http://www.army.gov.au/stayarmy/index.htm

ECN 244 - Pipes   

The Piper or Drummer is a Rifleman (infantryman). The traditional wartime role of Pipes and Drums within the Battalions is as Stretcher Bearers. This role has been modernised with increased medical training and a greater responsibility with the use of drugs such as Morphine to become what is now refered to as Combat First Aider. All members of the Platoon undergo an intense three week course on advanced First Aid and have to recertify annually on skills such as the use of drugs, canulation and various types of wound dressings.

Infantry Combat First Aider must be fully qualified as a Rifleman ECN 343-1 and should have a minimum of 18 months experience in this role as his performance as an Infantry Combat First Aider is closely related to his duties as a Rifleman.

Duties

Provide advanced first aid on the battle field at company, platoon and section level.


Be capable of controlling bleeding from gunshot, fragmentation, and any major traumatic injuries.


Be responsible for expensive musical equipment and stores.


Be responsible for the security of ammunition, medical equipment and personal weapons.


Provide saline intravenous drip (Hartman Solution) and treat shock in severely injured soldiers.


Organising stretcher bearer teams to return wounded to the Company Aid Post (CAP) for medical treatment or evacuation.


Drive an ambulance if required in different operations.


Liaise with the platoon sergeant and section 2IC on the maintenance of general hygiene within the section and platoon's area of responsibility.


As a Piper/Drummer he performs with his musical instruments on ceremonial parades, military tattoo's and in support of military and civil functions. Owing to the skill required to perform the musical instruments a large proportion of the Piper/Drummer's time is spent in practice and rehearsals.


The Sergeant is responsible for the control, discipline and ceremonial training of the band.


The Warrant Officer is responsible for the overall conduct and performance of the band.

 

[Duke]

A question,

I know there are some units in the Toronto Garrison where Bandsmen (Bandspeople?) are not members of the CF. Is this a general policy or are some units bending the rules?

Duke

 

[Navalsnpr]

People can still join the Musician trade as it still is a full time MOC.

The Navy still has 2 bands, one on each coast:

Stadacona Band (East Coast)

Naden Band (West Coast)

Normally personnel entering the Musician trade, get their Cpl/LS on graduation from BMQ and within the first year of service they complete a PLQ and get promoted to Sgt/PO2. I do beleive that persons applying for the Musician MOC in the RegF have to have degree in music to apply.

 

[Neill McKay]

I'm not going to participate in this discussion -- my comments above are taken from another thread.  However I will, to prevent any misunderstanding of my position, emphasize that I consider musicians to be an important part of the CF for reasons including public relations and recruiting, morale, ceremony, and an outstanding service to the public.  Out.

 

[bob the piper]

As far as I know, many PRes bands have limited paid positions and many people volunteer in the band in order to have a quality band without having to find money for more paid members. They are not Reservists, they just go to the band practices. I know, in the Royal Wpg. Rifles, they don't wear the uniform either, not sure if this is the case for other bands.

 

[Duke]

I know the ones in Toronto actually wear the uniform, and wear 'honorary' rank as well.

Duke

 

[bob the piper]

I know the ones in Toronto actually wear the uniform, and wear 'honorary' rank as well.

There's a man in the RWR band who joined at like 13 by lying about his age a long long time ago. He had to retire awhile ago at WO. He's the only volunteer in the band who gets to wear the uniform. He also got an honourary promotion to MWO a few years after he retired.

Bob

 

[George Wallace]

People can still join the Musician trade as it still is a full time MOC.

The Navy still has 2 bands, one on each coast:

Stadacona Band (East Coast)

Naden Band (West Coast)

Normally personnel entering the Musician trade, get their Cpl/LS on graduation from BMQ and within the first year of service they complete a PLQ and get promoted to Sgt/PO2. I do beleive that persons applying for the Musician MOC in the RegF have to have degree in music to apply.

Not being a Musician, this is what I have garnered over the years.  They're usually "Professional Musicians" when they join and you'll find that their 'Promotions" will be based, like all trades, on thier qualifications.  In their Trade, they must be able to play several instruments, read and write music, and progress up the various levels of 'musical training' required to be promoted.  That is how their Rank structure is formulated.  It is not unusual, to see Bandsmen with only a couple of years in, become Sgts.  If you look at the CF Bands closely, it seems that the majority are Sgts.  Ptes and Cpls stand out as newer members, probably just out of Recruit School.

 

[Duke]

I kind of like the idea that you can get talented musicians, soldiers or not that are dedicated to the art of 'martial music'!

And yes, I think that due to their training, military musicians are soldiers.

Duke

 

[aesop081]

Not being a Musician, this is what I have garnered over the years.  They're usually "Professional Musicians" when they join and you'll find that their 'Promotions" will be based, like all trades, on thier qualifications.  In their Trade, they must be able to play several instruments, read and write music, and progress up the various levels of 'musical training' required to be promoted.  That is how their Rank structure is formulated.  It is not unusual, to see Bandsmen with only a couple of years in, become Sgts.  If you look at the CF Bands closely, it seems that the majority are Sgts.  Ptes and Cpls stand out as newer members, probably just out of Recruit School.

We had 2 musicians on my recruit course.  One had a university degree in music and the other didnt.  The one with the degree was promoted to corporal immediately following the parade.

 

[McG]

Thats not correct for all musicians.

I intended that as a suggestion.  I know of the bandsman MOC.

 

[aesop081]

I intended that as a suggestion.  I know of the bandsman MOC.

oops !

CHIMO brother beaver

 

[George Wallace]

We had 2 musicians on my recruit course.  One had a university degree in music and the other didnt.  The one with the degree was promoted to corporal immediately following the parade.

There we see the example of their differing musical qualifications being recognized and their promotions being based on those qualifications.  If you followed up on their careers, you would have probably seen that they were both two or three ranks above you by the time you reached Cpl.

 

[aesop081]

There we see the example of their differing musical qualifications being recognized and their promotions being based on those qualifications.   If you followed up on their careers, you would have probably seen that they were both two or three ranks above you by the time you reached Cpl.

Oh yes, it is true.  We had a musician on the JLC prtion of my JLC/JNCO in waiwright and he was promoted to Sgt right after the course.